Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MindWandererB 06-22-07, 05:49 PM	The Core Coliseum Tavern - The 10th Incarnation - http://www.caterane.de/CoCo/Struktur/Gladius-Tavern8.jpg This is the Tavern of the Core Coliseum. Here, all Characters of Gladius meet to chat, drink, and sometimes even brawl. You can ask questions, talk to others, or write whatever you want as long as it does not violate the Code of Conduct (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=community/coc). You can't really go wrong here. Newcomers who want to make a character should use the Quickstart Guide or read the Rules of Gladius. If you have a question, the Tavern is definitely the right place to go. Links to the old Taverns: Core Coliseum Tavern I Core Coliseum Tavern II Core Coliseum Tavern III Core Coliseum Tavern IV Core Coliseum Tavern V Core Coliseum Tavern VI Core Coliseum Tavern VII Core Coliseum Tavern VIII Core Coliseum Tavern IX
Erithmu 06-22-07, 06:03 PM	This tavern thread has been rated 'X'. Small children and cute kittens should not read this thread unless an exorcist is near to administer an exorcism upon bleeding from the ears. Side effects of reading this thread may result in headache, nausea, runny nose, cancer, sunburn, astigmatism, bad vision, arthritis, insomnia, laughter, back injury, sudden chair ejection, and ninjas on the roof Read with caution.
SauroGrenom 06-22-07, 06:12 PM	I noticed that as well. What is more telling is the fact that we managed to hit 1000 posts in about 18 months. Of course, the days of 1 post per battle are long over (with some taking 4 or 5) - but I bet there's probably 600+ fights in there...Which is another problem in itself. We should try to do something about that. Trimming the default character sheet of unnecessary formatting is a good start. Also the allies nerf can help some by decreasing the number of allies. Perhaps a condensed allies format would work for animals and purchased allies. The way I run battles, there is a bit less than 700 characters per round of combat last time I checked. So saving a few thousand characters on each sheet can really give several more round of combat that would fit on one post.
stimpydoda 06-22-07, 08:03 PM	What did you jerks do to my poor kitten?! Mr. Fluffykins!!!!
TelinArtho 06-22-07, 09:55 PM	Which is another problem in itself. We should try to do something about that. Trimming the default character sheet of unnecessary formatting is a good start. Also the allies nerf can help some by decreasing the number of allies. Perhaps a condensed allies format would work for animals and purchased allies. The way I run battles, there is a bit less than 700 characters per round of combat last time I checked. So saving a few thousand characters on each sheet can really give several more round of combat that would fit on one post. Well one of the biggest changes I can suggest is already used for the most part. That is to switch out url tags for thread and post tags (as I just suggested in the FotW thread). That alone saves about 2500 characters on an ECL10 character. Formatting is really up to the individual though. I tend to be minimalistic about it - but that's the way I am. Others may enjoy the special formatting that helps emphasize the important items. I never checked how much my fights take. That is usually not the place for trimming anyway - but I think most of my fights account for less than 10% of the final character count (with some 100-round exceptions obviously). The reduction in allies might help as well - but that will be told over time.
Macbrea 06-22-07, 10:24 PM	I tend to use a bit of formating in some areas to reduce the amount of space my character takes up. My goal was no sblock on the character sheet. I hate them.. :P
MitzaVolchenko 06-22-07, 10:25 PM	*grumbles* Just when the dirt on the floorof the old tavern gets interesting, someon e has to go burn it down and open a new one. I'll replace all of my URL tags sooner or later...it is just a pain in the rear and thus has not been done. At least I resist the urge to use flavor text...
NiQil 06-22-07, 10:28 PM	For those interested that may have missed it, I will be updating the default character sheet to remove the size tags that many of you seem to think we could do without. I personally like them, but to each their own. So for those that might use the default, that will be up sometime this weekend.
NiQil 06-22-07, 10:41 PM	*grumbles* Just when the dirt on the floorof the old tavern gets interesting, someon e has to go burn it down and open a new one. I'll replace all of my URL tags sooner or later...it is just a pain in the rear and thus has not been done. At least I resist the urge to use flavor text... Not so hard.... Fights results: ECL3 FFA Part I ECL FFA Part II Grasshopper (Greezer) vs Aerryl (MindWandererB) vs Sybil (MitzaVolchenko) vs Amaryllis (Snommelp): Dracazar (loss) [+300 XP] [+300+57(perform) gold] ECL3 FFA Sybil vs. Fjord vs. Kendal vs. Almaar: Snommelp (loss) [+375xp] [+375+57(perform)=432gp] ECL3 Sybil vs. Challack (DTFarstar): Warclone (win) [+900xp] [+900gp+57gp(perform)=957gp] ECL3 Sybil vs. Ba'al (Book5): Macbrea (win) [+788xp] [+788gp+57gp(perform)=845gp] ECL3 Sybil vs. Death (NiQil): Kagain (loss) [+300xp] [+300gp+57gp (perform)=357gp] ECL3 Sybil vs. Rokk Ohn: Vathelokai (loss) [+300xp][+300gp+57gp (perform)=357gp] ECL4 Sybil vs. Montana (UserNamer): DSugui (win) [+1500xp][+1500 gp+80gp (perform)=1580gp] ECL4 Sybil vs. Maya Redwine (MWB): Abyssal Stalker (loss) [+450xp][+450gp+80gp (perform)=530gp] ECL4 Sybil vs. Durin (Maraxus): TelinArtho (loss) [+450xp][+450gp+80gp (perform)=530gp] ECL4 Sybil & Maelosh (hrothmund) vs. Durin (Maraxus) & Zax (TelinArtho): Zevox (loss) [+475xp][+475gp+80gp (perform)=555gp] ECL4 FFA Sybil vs. Maelosh (hrothmund) vs. Sabra (Etiquette Gnome) vs. Ghashara (orsono): TelinArtho (loss) [+833xp][+833gp+80gp (perform)=913gp] ECL4 Sybil vs. Wildfire (NiQil): Telin Artho (win) [+1200xp][+1200gp+80gp(perform)=1280gp] ECL5 Mission for WAR Ode to a Flower: TelinArtho/Rauul (success!) [+4600xp][+4876gp] ECL6 Draconic Homecoming (Quest): Rauul (success!) [+5400xp][+6000gp] Just cut and paste over what you already have.
MitzaVolchenko 06-22-07, 10:52 PM	Thanks hon, but I just went through and did them...I still think it is apaininthe rear...perhaps that is where I will set the retirement point for my characters...when they exceed 50k characters. I'll do Zwei when her fight is done and will do Indivara now.
NiQil 06-22-07, 11:02 PM	Thanks hon, but I just went through and did them...I still think it is apaininthe rear...perhaps that is where I will set the retirement point for my characters...when they exceed 50k characters. I'll do Zwei when her fight is done and will do Indivara now. And here is Zwei...since I already had it started. Fights results: ECL3 Hunter Part I ECL3 Hunter Part II Aryleia (NightBreeze) => Samuel (Lonewolf) => Gaston (waywreth) => Zwei und'Vierzig (MitzaVolchenko):Luni Loss (2nd place) - +649 Exp, +649gp+39gp for performing=688gp ECL3 FFA Part I ECL3 FFA Part II Zwei vs Featylec vs. Jonathon vs. Marco: Macbrea Loss (3rd place) - +750xp, +750gp+39gp for performing=789gp ECL1 MQ Miniquest to Join EHTC: Altaris13 Success - +300xp, +300gp, +39gp for performing=339gp ECL3 Zwei vs. Selene (Erithmu): shadowmaster Win - +900xp, +900gp+39 gp (perform)=939gp ECL3 Zwei vs. Finrod (lonewolf): TelinArtho Win - +900xp, +900gp+39gp (perform)=939gp Level up ECL4 FFA Zwei (MitzaVolchenko) vs. Maeril (Usurpator) vs. Manzarf (Abyssal Stalker) vs. Tsiuzues (Skojar) : Warclone Loss - +833xp, +833gp+52gp (perform)=885gp ECL4 Zwei vs. Rethun (Kaigan): Gonbow (Win) - +1200xp, +1200gp+52gp (perform)=1252gp ECL4 Zwei vs. Histal Da'arth: Turin (Loss) - +400xp, +400gp+52gp (perform)=452gp ECL4 Zwei vs. Fjord (Begferdeth): MysticMonk2005 (Win)+1200xp, +1200gp+52gp (perform)=1252gp ECL5 Zwei vs. Hassan Sabbah (Vathelokai): Abyssal Stalker (Win)+1500xp, +1600gp+65gp(perform)=1665gp ECL5 Zwei vs. Tueor Amplexus (MysticMonk2005): DSugui(Loss)+500xp, +533gp+65gp(perform)=598gp ECL5 Zwei vs. Kendal(Papapeperoni) :Traevanon(Loss)+500xp, +533gp+65gp(perform)=598gp ECL5 Team vs ECL7 Zwei & Fyhir (Spasheridan) vs. Ja-red (TelinArtho): Hirumajoe(Loss)+500xp, +533gp+65gp (perform)=589gp ECL5 MQ Zwei rejoins the ranks of EHTC: McJarvis (Success)+1500xp, +1600gp+65gp (perform)=1665gp ECL5 Zwei vs. Treetall Oakleg (Hogarth): Erithmu (Loss)+500xp, +533gp+65gp (perform)=589gp ECL6 Zwei vs. Ceilia (Zevox): TelinArtho (Loss)+675xp, +750gp+78gp (perform)=828gp ECL6 Zwei vs. Anakala (TelinArtho): MindWandererB (Loss)+675xp, +749gp+78gp(perform)=827gp ECL6 Zwei & Balrog (Maraxus) vs. The Harvester (Caterane): SauroGrenom (Loss)+625xp, +639gp+78gp(perform)=717gp ECL6 Zwei vs. Durin (Maraxus): Vathelokai (Win)+1912xp, +2125gp+78gp(perform)=2203gp ECL6 FFA Zwei vs. Rubicanti (TheMagister) vs. El Rapido (templer10) vs. Arden Tarmik (Zevox): sonofzeal/TelinArtho(Loss)+1800xp, +2000gp+78gp(perform)=2078gp ECL7 Zwei vs 4 Ogres: templer10(Loss)+700xp, +866gp+91gp(perform)=957gp ECL7 Zwei vs. Rubicanti (TheMagister): templer10(Loss-Surrender due to move)+700xp, +866gp+91gp(perform) Again...just copy and paste over your old ones.. I did notice in these, that both of your MQ links to join and rejoin EHTC were linked to the threads, rather than to the results post that is in the Questlog of Gladius thread. I fixed that by pointing them to the correct posts. The threads are in danger of pruning, but this way you don't lose the results of the MQ. That's why that thread exists.
MitzaVolchenko 06-22-07, 11:08 PM	Heh...thanks will use that when I can edit her again...don't really care if the MQ/Q info goes away from the tags...it had already happened for some of the fights and will happen to more...folks just gonna have to take my word for it ;)
hogarth 06-22-07, 11:44 PM	I did notice in these, that both of your MQ links to join and rejoin EHTC were linked to the threads, rather than to the results post that is in the Questlog of Gladius thread. I fixed that by pointing them to the correct posts. The threads are in danger of pruning, but this way you don't lose the results of the MQ. That's why that thread exists. Note that get archived now instead of pruned (I believe); there should be no danger of "losing" recent quest threads permanently. Some older ones might be lost forever, though.
NiQil 06-22-07, 11:48 PM	Note that get archived now instead of pruned (I believe); there should be no danger of "losing" recent quest threads permanently. Some older ones might be lost forever, though. That's all well and good until WotC decides to dump the archive or something. But that aside, all players should be pointing at the posts in the Questlog, as per the questing guidelines, rather than at the individual threads.
Abyssal Stalker 06-23-07, 02:11 AM	I'm sorry that I haven't yet posted my tactics for the ECL10 team fight. A little man has messed my head: http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/8365/pict0271ta7.jpg Shot with DiMAGE X1. (http://profile.imageshack.us/camerabuy.php?model=DiMAGE+X1.&make=KONICA+MINOLTA.) at 2007-06-22 He is about 2 hours old in the picture :)
stimpydoda 06-23-07, 03:34 AM	Congrats man!
Rauul 06-23-07, 04:33 AM	I'm sorry that I haven't yet posted my tactics for the ECL10 team fight. A little man has messed my head: http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/8365/pict0271ta7.jpg Shot with DiMAGE X1. (http://profile.imageshack.us/camerabuy.php?model=DiMAGE+X1.&make=KONICA+MINOLTA.) at 2007-06-22 He is about 2 hours old in the picture :) Congrats Abyssal, is always nice to share a Birthday with a newborn :) Now spoil him rotten
Sjiggie 06-23-07, 06:33 AM	Congrats Abyssal
TheMagister 06-23-07, 07:29 AM	Well done, compadre! Now you get to really prove that you're a man. If you can keep from killing him after he's been crying nonstop for six hours in the dead of night and you've got to work in the morning and there's just nothing you can do to stop it, then you're "in". I had to sacrifice a perfectly good recliner to my sleepless, helpless rage (it wasn't one of my best moments). (Telin has to identify with what I'm talking about.)
McJarvis 06-23-07, 08:23 AM	Well done, compadre! Now you get to really prove that you're a man. If you can keep from killing him after he's been crying nonstop for six hours in the dead of night and you've got to work in the morning and there's just nothing you can do to stop it, then you're "in". I was reading this with no context(didn't read previous posts) & definitely thought you were talking about pitlording for one of our more argumentative players... ;)
Vathelokai 06-23-07, 08:39 AM	I'm sorry that I haven't yet posted my tactics for the ECL10 team fight. A little man has messed my head: http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/8365/pict0271ta7.jpg Shot with DiMAGE X1. (http://profile.imageshack.us/camerabuy.php?model=DiMAGE+X1.&make=KONICA+MINOLTA.) at 2007-06-22 He is about 2 hours old in the picture :) :love: :dancin: Awwwww....
TelinArtho 06-23-07, 08:41 AM	Congratz man. And yes TM - I identify with your words very well...
Abyssal Stalker 06-23-07, 09:02 AM	Thanks guys! I can't wait for the sleepless nights :) @Vath: He has Charm Person at will :)
Sjiggie 06-23-07, 09:35 AM	Question: Is the prestige paladin PrC allowed here in the CoCo?
Erithmu 06-23-07, 09:52 AM	Question: Is the prestige paladin PrC allowed here in the CoCo? No .. none of the prestige class PrCs are allowed. Mostly due to the nature of that those classes are only really to be used if no one is using the standard base classes. I asked about the PrC bard one time
Sjiggie 06-23-07, 10:08 AM	Damn, I just had a great character in mind using the Prestige Paladin.
Hirumajoe 06-23-07, 10:16 AM	I'm sorry that I haven't yet posted my tactics for the ECL10 team fight. A little man has messed my head: http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/8365/pict0271ta7.jpg Shot with DiMAGE X1. (http://profile.imageshack.us/camerabuy.php?model=DiMAGE+X1.&make=KONICA+MINOLTA.) at 2007-06-22 He is about 2 hours old in the picture :) Congrats! No apologies necessary on late tactics. It doesn't get more Real Life > Game than that.
TheMagister 06-23-07, 12:03 PM	In much less exciting and happy news: I'M GETTING MY HOME COMPUTER FIXED! FINALLY! I'm totally stoked. Oddly, so is my wife. The silly thing sat (broken) in the closet for something like 6 months. Then I found the Starcraft II gameplay demo and she (who loves the series) suddenly decided that it was a priority to get it fixed. Gotta love clever husbands who use situational empathy to their advantage. :schemes:
MitzaVolchenko 06-23-07, 12:16 PM	Congrats on the AbyssalStalkerling! Doesn't get much more adorable than that.
TheMagister 06-23-07, 12:56 PM	Congrats on the AbyssalStalkerling! Doesn't get much more adorable than that. Then again, I'm biased. TM's Critters http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g48/larissajeanne02/Larissa1.jpg http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g48/larissajeanne02/Reese1.jpg One of these days I'll get a pic of myself up in here.
Khaim 06-23-07, 01:32 PM	One of these days I'll get a pic of myself up in here. Unless you're as cute as your spawnlings, don't bother. (Kidding.) (Maybe.)
Guildmaster (WAR) 06-23-07, 01:44 PM	Unless you're as cute as your spawnlings, don't bother. (Kidding.) (Maybe.) Yeah, but Mitza's all whiny: "But you're my favorite person and I don't even know what you look like!" and stuff. She's wearing me down, man! {This is TOTAL b.s., by the way.} :cool:
templer10 06-23-07, 02:40 PM	question - considering magic/psioincs transperancy can psicraft be used to identufy spells being cast and vice versa?
Zevox 06-23-07, 02:47 PM	question - considering magic/psioincs transperancy can psicraft be used to identufy spells being cast and vice versa? Nope. Psicraft IDs Psionics, Spellcraft IDs spells, if you want to ID both, you need both (this is why Istima has cross-class ranks in Spellcraft even though hes a Psion with a high Psicraft modifier). Zevox
SauroGrenom 06-23-07, 03:01 PM	question - considering magic/psioincs transperancy can psicraft be used to identufy spells being cast and vice versa? Better question is if spell focus and psionitrix bonuses to save dc's cross over. Or other similar items, feats and class features. That's not clear.
templer10 06-23-07, 03:04 PM	Another question - if you have ring of counterspells with dispel magic in it - does it work for dispel psionics also?
MindWandererB 06-23-07, 03:26 PM	Another question - if you have ring of counterspells with dispel magic in it - does it work for dispel psionics also? Nope. Not only are they different specific abilities, psionics can't be counterspelled.
NiQil 06-23-07, 08:58 PM	Alright....my two latest creations....Sabretooth and Tiris Rush. Tiris is an amalgum of Taren Rune and Blitzkrieg, neither of which were performing as I had hoped. So I sorta combined the intented results of each of them into one character. Still trying to prove to myself I can make a successful PsyWar who isn't a full-plate wearing dwarf. Sabretooth is another just for fun character...and should make Erithmu feel a whole lot better about the state of the world. Critique, opinions, suggestions and errors pointed out all welcome.
MindWandererB 06-23-07, 09:03 PM	Alright....my two latest creations....Sabretooth and Tiris Rush. ... Sabretooth is another just for fun character...and should make Erithmu feel a whole lot better about the state of the world.Of course, he also has to cope with the fact that Loddick apparently has a long-lost twin brother....
NiQil 06-23-07, 09:09 PM	Of course, he also has to cope with the fact that Loddick apparently has a long-lost twin brother.... Hahaha I didn't even realize that....maybe I'll hunt for another...it's tough to find good pics of elves wielding axes....they all have swords... Maybe I'll give in to the stereotype and switch from a greataxe to a greatsword...
Khaim 06-23-07, 09:22 PM	Alright....my two latest creations....Sabretooth and Tiris Rush. Domains for the cleric not buried in an sblock would be nice. Plus, since you have a FoM effect 3 rounds/day, you might want to list it...
MitzaVolchenko 06-23-07, 11:26 PM	Yeah, but Mitza's all whiny: "But you're my favorite person and I don't even know what you look like!" and stuff. She's wearing me down, man! {This is TOTAL b.s., by the way.} :cool: Careful, darlin'...if I'm gonna have the name, I'll sure as Hades have the game :P Ya better start courting fast because Willowmoon is trotting out to find her cohort and then she goes guild hunting.
Rauul 06-23-07, 11:31 PM	Careful, darlin'...if I'm gonna have the name, I'll sure as Hades have the game :P Ya better start courting fast because Willowmoon is trotting out to find her cohort and then she goes guild hunting. Guild hunting.... Bah with all your Cohort followers... you will be stronger than most Guilds... Just Start your own.. ECL 10 Paladin leader.. 1 ecl 8 cohort, and about 30 others between ecl 1-7
Zevox 06-24-07, 12:29 AM	Guild hunting.... Bah with all your Cohort followers... you will be stronger than most Guilds... Just Start your own.. ECL 10 Paladin leader.. 1 ecl 8 cohort, and about 30 others between ecl 1-7 Heh, as if shes the only one with a high enough leadership score for that. Asran could have 40 ECL 1 followers and 8 of higher levels right now if I wanted him to. ;) Zevox
Zevox 06-24-07, 01:42 AM	Heres an interesting question. Many Dragons have the ability to take alternate forms. But in the SRD and errata, the line from that ability which links it to the Polymorph spell is removed. So, how do they work things like ability scores, abilities gained/lost in the new form, and so on? I'd tend to think working it like polymorph (gain physical ability scores and traits, don't gain special attacks, lose own special attacks) would be the most sensible way, but since that was specifically removed in the errata, is it done differently? (I'm looking into possibly starting a Dragon character, and noticed that Silvers have that ability from Wyrmling age, which I found interesting, to say the least. If the Dragon gets to keep its ability scores, it could be a pretty potent ability to have.) Edit: Nevermind, found it. Got turned into a standardized special ability... that seems little different from polymorph... okay, odd, but it works. Zevox
NiQil 06-24-07, 01:56 AM	Heres an interesting question. Many Dragons have the ability to take alternate forms. But in the SRD and errata, the line from that ability which links it to the Polymorph spell is removed. So, how do they work things like ability scores, abilities gained/lost in the new form, and so on? I'd tend to think working it like polymorph (gain physical ability scores and traits, don't gain special attacks, lose own special attacks) would be the most sensible way, but since that was specifically removed in the errata, is it done differently? (I'm looking into possibly starting a Dragon character, and noticed that Silvers have that ability from Wyrmling age, which I found interesting, to say the least. If the Dragon gets to keep its ability scores, it could be a pretty potent ability to have.) Edit: Nevermind, found it. Got turned into a standardized special ability... that seems little different from polymorph... okay, odd, but it works. Zevox I'm not quite sure what your question is here...it seems pretty straightforward to me. Dragons get the ability of Alternate Form, which is specifically spelled out in the SRD. The errata then goes on to list modifications to the Alternate Form ability itself, and then further modifies the individual dragon entries' version of it. So take it as a chain. Start with the standard Alternate Form definition: Alternate Form (Su): A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume one or more specific alternate forms. This ability works much like the polymorph spell, except that the creature is limited to the forms specified, and does not regain any hit points for changing its form. Assuming an alternate form results in the following changes to the creature: —The creature retains the type and subtype of its original form. It gains the size of its new form. —The creature loses the natural weapons, natural armor, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its original form. —The creature gains the natural weapons, natural armor, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its new form. —The creature retains the special qualities of its original form. It does not gain any special qualities of its new form. —The creature retains the spell-like abilities and supernatural attacks of its old form (except for breath weapons and gaze attacks). It does not gain the spell-like abilities or supernatural attacks of its new form. —The creature gains the physical ability scores (Str, Dex, Con) of its new form. It retains the mental ability scores (Int, Wis, Cha) of its original form. —The creature retains its hit points and save bonuses, although its save modifiers may change due to a change in ability scores. —The creature retains any spellcasting ability it had in its original form, although it must be able to speak intelligibly to cast spells with verbal components and it must have humanlike hands to cast spells with somatic components. —The creature is effectively camouflaged as a creature of its new form, and it gains a +10 bonus on Disguise checks if it uses this ability to create a disguise. Then make the following changes: Alternate Form (Page 305) Make the following changes. Delete the second sentence of the entry. Add the following text to the body of the ability description: A true seeing spell or ability reveals the creature’s natural form. A creature using alternate form reverts to its natural form when killed, but separated body parts retain their shape. A creature cannot use alternate form to take the form of a creature with a template. Replace Line 2 of the changes with the following text: —The creature loses the natural weapons, natural armor, and movement modes of its original form, as well as any extraordinary special attacks of its original form not derived from class levels (such as the barbarian’s rage class feature). Replace Line 7 of the changes with the following text: —The creature retains its HD, hit points, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses, although its total attack and save modifiers may change due to a change in ability scores. Add the following text to the end of the entry. —Any gear worn or carried by the creature that can’t be worn or carried in its new form instead falls to the ground in its space. If the creature changes size, any gear it wears or carries that can be worn or carried in its new form changes size to match the new size. (Nonhumanoid-shaped creatures can’t wear armor designed for humanoid-shaped creatures, and viceversa.) Gear returns to normal size if dropped. Then modify the ability according to which dragon you are looking at: Dragon, Bronze Monster Manual, page 82 Delete the second sentence of Alternate Form. Juvenile Bronze Dragon Monster Manual, page 82 Delete the second sentence of Alternate Form. Dragon, Gold Monster Manual, page 85 Delete the second sentence of Alternate Form. Adult Gold Dragon Monster Manual, page 86 Delete the second sentence of Alternate Form. Dragon, Silver Monster Manual, page 87 Delete the second sentence of Alternate Form. Young Adult Silver Dragon Monster Manual, page 88 Delete the second sentence of Alternate Form.
Zevox 06-24-07, 02:01 AM	I'm not quite sure what your question is here... Like I said, I found it. Didn't realize it had been standardized and fully spelled out as a special ability rather than just linked to polymorph as it was before. Zevox
Erithmu 06-24-07, 02:52 AM	Alright....my two latest creations....Sabretooth and Tiris Rush. Tiris is an amalgum of Taren Rune and Blitzkrieg, neither of which were performing as I had hoped. So I sorta combined the intented results of each of them into one character. Still trying to prove to myself I can make a successful PsyWar who isn't a full-plate wearing dwarf. Sabretooth is another just for fun character...and should make Erithmu feel a whole lot better about the state of the world. Critique, opinions, suggestions and errors pointed out all welcome. You made a dwarven cleric who uses a morning star (aka club w/ spikes) and an elf that uses an axe ... And this is supposed to make the state of the world better ... how? And you gave Sabretooth wands?!?!? and Longstrider over expy retreat?!!? ... ?!?!? And Tiris' picture has to change, there can be only one ... and Loddick has been using that pic since around ECL 9 (or January if you prefer). That and he is building a moderate reputation for being annoying and deadly at the same time :)
Rauul 06-24-07, 04:05 AM	You made a dwarven cleric who uses a morning star (aka club w/ spikes) and an elf that uses an axe ... And this is supposed to make the state of the world better ... how? And you gave Sabretooth wands?!?!? and Longstrider over expy retreat?!!? ... ?!?!? And Tiris' picture has to change, there can be only one ... and Loddick has been using that pic since around ECL 9 (or January if you prefer). That and he is building a moderate reputation for being annoying and deadly at the same time :) Oh i am waiting for the ECL 10 shadow to tell my little ECL 4 shadow to pick a new name... "ponders the 1 credit to challenge him in the Arena... and the xp that would be earned if he Lost and had to retire in shame!!"
TheMagister 06-24-07, 07:16 AM	Careful, darlin'...if I'm gonna have the name, I'll sure as Hades have the game :P Ya better start courting fast because Willowmoon is trotting out to find her cohort and then she goes guild hunting. Hey, I don't want anyone in WAR who doesn't want to be there first. You know I'm planning on rebuilding Sdentch at ECL 10, right? I've got this neat idea for a half-celestial version of her...
UserNamer 06-24-07, 09:56 AM	I have a question about parties: If only one of the character has a attack/defense pack., example: scout. Will both the characters of the party get the extra buff round(s)?
Erithmu 06-24-07, 10:08 AM	I have a question about parties: If only one of the character has a attack/defense pack., example: scout. Will both the characters of the party get the extra buff round(s)? Attack/Defend Packages only work in 1v1 fights. So if a member of a party has a attack/defend package, it will never work as the 1v1 condition is not met.
Usurpator 06-24-07, 11:04 AM	Attack/Defend Packages only work in 1v1 fights. So if a member of a party has a attack/defend package, it will never work as the 1v1 condition is not met. How about Cohorts?
Erithmu 06-24-07, 12:42 PM	How about Cohorts? I'm not 100% sure (and I'm sure this would also be towards allies by extension.) but they way that we are handling surprise rounds at the moment is that the entire team gets the surprise round (IMT tourney, mismatched guild combat, etc). As much as I want to say that 'I don't think they should'; I think it is more like if the package succeeds, then the whole team gets the bonus.
TheMagister 06-24-07, 12:55 PM	I'm hijackin'. Okay, ya'll ready? With the rise in the power of the Denthian Church (and the opening of the frozen leagues), Farlanghan has seen fit to send a representative of his own, and she has agreed to abandon her rest in the Twin Paradises of Bytopia where she spent her days romping with her beloved animals. Beware, Kraegin. Your end approaches. {wink} Here she is. Sdentch the Angelic I don't hold any illusions that she's anything but a dressed up version of the original, but that's perfectly fine with me. If anyone has any suggestions or corrections, I'd appreciate the heads-up. {somewhere in Gladius a mildly prosperous meat pie vendor is looking at the sky and wondering why he just got the chills...}
templer10 06-24-07, 01:46 PM	I'm hijackin'. Okay, ya'll ready? With the rise in the power of the Denthian Church (and the opening of the frozen leagues), Farlanghan has seen fit to send a representative of his own, and she has agreed to abandon her rest in the Twin Paradises of Bytopia where she spent her days romping with her beloved animals. Beware, Kraegin. Your end approaches. {wink} Here she is. Sdentch the Angelic I don't hold any illusions that she's anything but a dressed up version of the original, but that's perfectly fine with me. If anyone has any suggestions or corrections, I'd appreciate the heads-up. {somewhere in Gladius a mildly prosperous meat pie vendor is looking at the sky and wondering why he just got the chills...} nice STR mod.... i wouldnt want to go near her/him/it? question - dont tattoes scale up in price as powerstones? if so it's 100X2(pl)X3(ml)=600 each. Potion of owl's wisdom? for the +2 to will? really? btw- isnt "belt of health" (assuming it is a belt- considered a custom item?
TheMagister 06-24-07, 02:01 PM	nice STR mod.... i wouldnt want to go near her/him/it? question - dont tattoes scale up in price as powerstones? if so it's 100X2(pl)X3(ml)=600 each. Potion of owl's wisdom? for the +2 to will? really? btw- isnt "belt of health" (assuming it is a belt- considered a custom item? Yeesh! 600 each? I was operating on the (possibly flawed) assumption that tattoos are twice as expensive as powerstones. And yes, just for the +2 to will. I've lost too many times to not think it's important. I'm actually still considering swapping Power Attack for Iron Will. No, really! I changed some stuff around. Now I'm going for Goggles of See Invis (replaces the Hand of Glory's job) and a regular Belt of Giant Str and Amulet of Health.
Khaim 06-24-07, 02:02 PM	What the heck is "Ward of the Children"?
TheMagister 06-24-07, 02:04 PM	What, it's not in your PHB equipment list?? {j/k :P} It's a name for Sdentch's shield. You'll find a full stat description in the "Equipment Worn and Carried" section.
Khaim 06-24-07, 02:08 PM	What, it's not in your PHB equipment list?? {j/k :P} It's a name for Sdentch's shield. You'll find a full stat description in the "Equipment Worn and Carried" section. Oh, I see. That line is entirely unclear, you know. How about "+1 Large Heavy Mithral Shield of Bashing with [Ma] Large Cold Iron Spikes"? Assuming I interpreted that right, the masterwork quality on the spikes is rather useless, since Bashing gives them a +1 enchancement bonus anyway.
TheMagister 06-24-07, 02:10 PM	It lets me enchant 'em later as a seperate weapon (I'm thinking a +1 defending shield spike would be worth it). And I took your advice on the shield description. It's easier to understand it when it's written your way.
NiQil 06-24-07, 02:48 PM	You made a dwarven cleric who uses a morning star (aka club w/ spikes) and an elf that uses an axe ... And this is supposed to make the state of the world better ... how? By me having a dwarf on the roster... The axe thing is just personal preference...I prefer axes to swords. And the morningstar is the best weapon a cleric can get this side of the war domain without spending feats. No-brainer there. If it makes you feel any better, before I went with the psionic weapon route with his feats, I had him set up as a dwarven tripper with a sickle. But I've done dwarven trippers enough for the time being, so I went a different route. Basically, the primary goal of Sabretooth is to force people to come play in melee because they don't want to die from magic missile plinking. It seems like more people use Force Screen than Shield, since that is something anyone can get in a tattoo. We'll see. Eventually he will upgrade from magic missile's to fireballs and lighting bolts. And you gave Sabretooth wands?!?!? and Longstrider over expy retreat?!!? ... ?!?!? Expeditious Retreat may give a higher speed, but it has a much shorter duration. It may be something I explore in the future. The Longstrider is there to simply compensate for the inherent dwarven weakness of slow speed. And Tiris' picture has to change, there can be only one ... and Loddick has been using that pic since around ECL 9 (or January if you prefer). That and he is building a moderate reputation for being annoying and deadly at the same time :) I'm not sure what you are seeing there...I changed it about an hour after MWB's post. Maybe you need to clear your temporary internet files or open the character sheet and refresh the page.
templer10 06-24-07, 02:50 PM	Yeesh! 600 each? I was operating on the (possibly flawed) assumption that tattoos are twice as expensive as powerstones. And yes, just for the +2 to will. I've lost too many times to not think it's important. I'm actually still considering swapping Power Attack for Iron Will. No, really! I changed some stuff around. Now I'm going for Goggles of See Invis (replaces the Hand of Glory's job) and a regular Belt of Giant Str and Amulet of Health. you should get tattoes of defensive precog - at least it gives +1 to ALL saves (and +1 AC). it's also chealer at 200 For a ML2 tattoe (2 minutes are usually enough).
TheMagister 06-24-07, 03:30 PM	That's a good idea! I think I will. As a flying steamroller, her goal is pretty much always going to be to get into melee as fast as possible since so many higher level characters require so much buffing to be effective. Nevertheless, if Sdentch lands a big map that allows buffing vs. a save-or-die caster, that extra +1 insight to saves would come in mighty handy. Thanks for the tip!
templer10 06-24-07, 03:43 PM	That's a good idea! I think I will. As a flying steamroller, her goal is pretty much always going to be to get into melee as fast as possible since so many higher level characters require so much buffing to be effective. Nevertheless, if Sdentch lands a big map that allows buffing vs. a save-or-die caster, that extra +1 insight to saves would come in mighty handy. Thanks for the tip! NP - i dont expect Elrick to take more then a month and a half or so to get to ECL 10 so you better get ready... ECL 10 pure caster + Handle aniaml allies and/or leadership (at 9) .... also - iam planing on a custom staff by then....
TheMagister 06-24-07, 03:49 PM	Nah, she's gonna be almost exclusively a quest character. (forgot to mention that, and now that I look back, I think I forgot to remember it, too)
TelinArtho 06-24-07, 04:30 PM	I'm hijackin'. Okay, ya'll ready? With the rise in the power of the Denthian Church (and the opening of the frozen leagues), Farlanghan has seen fit to send a representative of his own, and she has agreed to abandon her rest in the Twin Paradises of Bytopia where she spent her days romping with her beloved animals. Beware, Kraegin. Your end approaches. {wink} Here she is. Sdentch the Angelic I don't hold any illusions that she's anything but a dressed up version of the original, but that's perfectly fine with me. If anyone has any suggestions or corrections, I'd appreciate the heads-up. {somewhere in Gladius a mildly prosperous meat pie vendor is looking at the sky and wondering why he just got the chills...} As I mentioned before - I was sad to see her go. So now that she's back - I'm happy once again. If you need any Denthian quests - let me know - I'm always up for running them
TheMagister 06-24-07, 04:45 PM	As I mentioned before - I was sad to see her go. So now that she's back - I'm happy once again. If you need any Denthian quests - let me know - I'm always up for running them I'll let you know. :)
Vathelokai 06-24-07, 06:28 PM	@TM... get that PM about Auburn? I'm working on that today.... just 10 more credits...
Vathelokai 06-24-07, 06:32 PM	Expeditious Retreat may give a higher speed, but it has a much shorter duration. It may be something I explore in the future. The Longstrider is there to simply compensate for the inherent dwarven weakness of slow speed. I'd grab maybe 4 scrolls of longstrider to get through a couple fights and pick up a CL3 wand of retreat. Few fights last that long, if you need to rebuff you'll have time to do it, and it will last you past ECL 10 in it's usefulness (where you can get boots of flight or haste, which cover all that anyway).
TheMagister 06-24-07, 06:41 PM	I got it; but I'm not sure that I have anything to add. Do you know what's useful as heck in a two-person group? Quickened Spells. Quickened <insert buff spell here> + rapid summoning makes for monsters that enter already buffed, and could possibly buff your partner, too. Just a quickened grease spell can completely change an entire combat (as you well know). Helps your punch, is what I'm getting at. I'm a big fan of being able to apply the exactly right amount of pressure at exactly the right time (one of the reasons a robe of useful items is my favorite wizard robe -- bar none -- I'll buy two or three of 'em at a time! Why bother with kicking in the door when you can make a window thru the wall and fireball the entire damned room before they can react? How about readying an action to use a patch [any patch] upon spellcasting? Throwing a guard dog into the path of an oncoming fireball is just darned fun, and funny, and effective!) That's really all I've got for you. I build my home wizards totally different than is necessary here, and I don't think that I'd have fun with a wizard here. Too restrictive with the tactics and stuff. TM
Vathelokai 06-24-07, 06:46 PM	I was looking over quicken, persistant, etc. spells (stuff I love, but doesn't work too well here). The +4 spell level is hard to work. I'm getting those feats later on when I'll have the open 5-6 lv spell slots for it. For now, I might get a quicken rod (damn handy item right there).
Vathelokai 06-24-07, 06:48 PM	I was also kicking around the idea of forming an 'official' CoCo team. What do you think?
TheMagister 06-24-07, 06:51 PM	I was also kicking around the idea of forming an 'official' CoCo team. What do you think? First you'll have to tell me what you mean by "official". If you mean like the Battlesong Duet, you'll have to wait till I've got some more credits. Sdentch took like, 60, and left me with TWO.
Vathelokai 06-24-07, 06:53 PM	Yeah, like Battlesong. Credits are tight on my end as well. Questing first.
TheMagister 06-24-07, 07:12 PM	Agreed. You'll have up to 5th level spells at 10th level. Possible 1st level quickened spells: grease obscuring mist true strike magic missile color spray(good) erase(for enemy scrolls!) All damned useful in the right situation.
Erithmu 06-24-07, 07:51 PM	As I mentioned before - I was sad to see her go. So now that she's back - I'm happy once again. If you need any Denthian quests - let me know - I'm always up for running them You might have more than one taker for that Telin ... Owen is by nature a summoner and has some storyline ties that need to be explored in the Denthian temples Retikos (although I don't know if this storyline is fully public) is very anti Denthian And then Auburn and Sdentch makes 4 ... ... Campaign??? @Niqil: AHHHHH ... yes things are much better, there is no longer a disturbance in the force. As for the wand, I still think 30 ft is too slow, in a few levels you can also pick up an extend rod and just cast your domain spell for most of the day. Or you will have flight by then. I still think that you would be better served by the Expy retreat wand, even if you have to refresh it, than a wand that will be mostly outdated before you ever get near the end of it's use.
NiQil 06-24-07, 07:59 PM	You might have more than one taker for that Telin ... Owen is by nature a summoner and has some storyline ties that need to be explored in the Denthian temples Retikos (although I don't know if this storyline is fully public) is very anti Denthian And then Auburn and Sdentch makes 4 ... ... Campaign??? @Niqil: AHHHHH ... yes things are much better, there is no longer a disturbance in the force. As for the wand, I still think 30 ft is too slow, in a few levels you can also pick up an extend rod and just cast your domain spell for most of the day. Or you will have flight by then. I still think that you would be better served by the Expy retreat wand, even if you have to refresh it, than a wand that will be mostly outdated before you ever get near the end of it's use. You make a good point...the primary reason I picked up the Travel domain were access to Longstrider and Fly...but with a wand of Exp Retreat, that would hold me until I can pick up some Winged Boots.....that would, in turn, allow me to change to the War domain to be able to use a Dwarven Waraxe. I'll have to look into it a little further.
TheMagister 06-24-07, 08:18 PM	You might have more than one taker for that Telin ... Owen is by nature a summoner and has some storyline ties that need to be explored in the Denthian temples Retikos (although I don't know if this storyline is fully public) is very anti Denthian And then Auburn and Sdentch makes 4 ... ... Campaign??? @Niqil: AHHHHH ... yes things are much better, there is no longer a disturbance in the force. As for the wand, I still think 30 ft is too slow, in a few levels you can also pick up an extend rod and just cast your domain spell for most of the day. Or you will have flight by then. I still think that you would be better served by the Expy retreat wand, even if you have to refresh it, than a wand that will be mostly outdated before you ever get near the end of it's use. The bigger the party, the more dangerous Sdentch gets. She's got her weaknesses, but if the bad guys are worried about you guys, her old build generally outdamaged just about everything once she could make her target be still for a round or two.
Vathelokai 06-24-07, 08:23 PM	An abjurer, two conjurers, and a war machine vs. a summoner cult.... Campaignlording for that would be ...taxing. Sounds exciting.
Erithmu 06-24-07, 08:28 PM	Ok .. Ephraim is going into the arena this week for the first time, and probably the one of the first times that an Elocater has been in the arena. So I'm looking her over just to confirm some stuff (and double check some of the rulings that were made before based on her feat selection) Scorn Earth: - Is it just me or is the ability, at distances above 1ft above the ground, just like 10 ft fly speed (if wanted) with the Psi levitate penalties. - What is the action to activate/deactivate the ability? Granted the ability is constant, but I'm guessing that it is a Std to activate or deactivate it as it doesn't list an alternate form. - Any Balance checks are still required regardless of the fact that I am not touching the ground (confirmation) Up The Walls in conjunction with Scorn Earth: - Up the walls must begin with movement on the ground. Ie: I cannot double move up a wall, but I can Up the walls a single move and then take advantage of the Scorn Earth floating ability at the end of the single move. (confirmation)
Erithmu 06-24-07, 08:30 PM	An abjurer, two conjurers, and a war machine vs. a summoner cult.... Campaignlording for that would be ...taxing. Sounds exciting. You forgot Retikos' band-aid cohort (who would probably need to run band-aid duty with all of us squishy mages) Edit: and Owen's enchanter Cohort
MindWandererB 06-24-07, 08:33 PM	Ok .. Ephraim is going into the arena this week for the first time, and probably the one of the first times that an Elocater has been in the arena. So I'm looking her over just to confirm some stuff (and double check some of the rulings that were made before based on her feat selection) Scorn Earth: - Is it just me or is the ability, at distances above 1ft above the ground, just like 10 ft fly speed (if wanted) with the Psi levitate penalties. - What is the action to activate/deactivate the ability? Granted the ability is constant, but I'm guessing that it is a Std to activate or deactivate it as it doesn't list an alternate form. - Any Balance checks are still required regardless of the fact that I am not touching the ground (confirmation) Up The Walls in conjunction with Scorn Earth: - Up the walls must begin with movement on the ground. Ie: I cannot double move up a wall, but I can Up the walls a single move and then take advantage of the Scorn Earth floating ability at the end of the single move. (confirmation) I can confirm items 1 and 4. Not sure about the others.
TheMagister 06-24-07, 08:39 PM	Seems like "ignore difficult terrain" pretty much answers #3...
TelinArtho 06-24-07, 08:39 PM	An abjurer, two conjurers, and a war machine vs. a summoner cult.... Campaignlording for that would be ...taxing. Sounds exciting. You forgot Retikos' band-aid cohort (who would probably need to run band-aid duty with all of us squishy mages) Edit: and Owen's enchanter Cohort Ironically enough, the one campaign I started to draw up was around the Galladi storyline I started a while ago. I never actually planned a Denthian campaign... (it is after all just one of many religions I have worked on while here...) Definitely seems like there's enough interest - though I'm not sure how much fun it would be with level 10 characters (I always start my home campaigns at level 1 and go up until the group dies...)
Erithmu 06-24-07, 08:51 PM	Seems like "ignore difficult terrain" pretty much answers #3... I would agree with you there, but the question is more along the lines of something like the city roof tops or the canopy in the forest map
MitzaVolchenko 06-24-07, 09:12 PM	Ironically enough, the one campaign I started to draw up was around the Galladi storyline I started a while ago. I never actually planned a Denthian campaign... (it is after all just one of many religions I have worked on while here...) Definitely seems like there's enough interest - though I'm not sure how much fun it would be with level 10 characters (I always start my home campaigns at level 1 and go up until the group dies...) Run a campaign! Someone else run a campaign! I wanna play in one!
Zevox 06-24-07, 10:02 PM	I'm hijackin'. Okay, ya'll ready? With the rise in the power of the Denthian Church (and the opening of the frozen leagues), Farlanghan has seen fit to send a representative of his own, and she has agreed to abandon her rest in the Twin Paradises of Bytopia where she spent her days romping with her beloved animals. Beware, Kraegin. Your end approaches. {wink} Here she is. Sdentch the Angelic I don't hold any illusions that she's anything but a dressed up version of the original, but that's perfectly fine with me. If anyone has any suggestions or corrections, I'd appreciate the heads-up. {somewhere in Gladius a mildly prosperous meat pie vendor is looking at the sky and wondering why he just got the chills...} "Sdentch the Angelic" eh? Well, to say the least, it'll be interesting to see how you pull this off in RP. Though I've gotta say, thats a lot more credits you're spending on her than I think I'd ever spend on one character. 60 credits... sheesh, I didn't think I'd ever see anyone short of Cat or King Uther spend that many at once. I think the damage on that shield is off. According to the bashing ability, a medium heavy shield does 1d8 damage, so a large one should do 2d6, not 3d6. Any why is it that you gave the shield 1.5*str to damage? Its a shield, it has to be worn on one arm - no two-arm option. Half-Orc Paragon eh? Plan on having her take Human or Orc Paragon levels later on with that Divided Anscestry ability, I take it? Human Paragon would probably help a lot - good will saves, adaptive learning skill, bonus feat, and +2 str at the end (which is the only worthwhile thing Orc Paragon gives anyway). Could be interesting to see where that leads. From playing Asran, I can tell you right now that will save is going to bite you. The SR is little defense, since any straight caster pierces it at least 75% of the time (more with things like Spell Penetration or Spell Power from Red Wizard or Archmage). The reflex save probably will too, especially since she doesn't get resist fire from her template. Best watch out for that. Zevox
NiQil 06-24-07, 10:35 PM	Ok..here's an odd one... For a dwarf with martial weapon proficiency, when making a masterwork alchemical silver dwarven waraxe, what is the correct price? A) 30 (base) + 90 (alchemical one-handed weapon) + 300 (masterwork) = 420 / 2 = 210 gp B) 30 (base) + 180 (alchemical two-handed weapon) + 300 (masterwork) = 510 / 2 = 255 gp I ask this because a waraxe is listed on the two-handed weapon chart, but with martial proficiency, they become one-handed.
Zevox 06-24-07, 10:41 PM	I ask this because a waraxe is listed on the two-handed weapon chart, but with martial proficiency, they become one-handed. Are you sure you're looking at the right chart? The Sovelior SRD has it listed as a one-handed exotic weapon. It seems to work on the same rule as the Bastard Sword - its exotic if you want to use it one-handed, martial if you want to use it two-handed, but it is classified as one-handed itself. Dwarves just get to ignore the exotic-if-one-handed part. Zevox
MitzaVolchenko 06-24-07, 10:42 PM	"Sdentch the Angelic" eh? Well, to say the least, it'll be interesting to see how you pull this off in RP. Though I've gotta say, thats a lot more credits you're spending on her than I think I'd ever spend on one character. 60 credits... sheesh, I didn't think I'd ever see anyone short of Cat or King Uther spend that many at once. Willowmoon cost me 45 and may cost me ten more before she ever hits the arena...not including quest costs.
Vathelokai 06-24-07, 10:54 PM	I'm planning on 55 for the rebuild of auburn...:weep:
MindWandererB 06-24-07, 11:03 PM	Ok .. Ephraim is going into the arena this week for the first time, and probably the one of the first times that an Elocater has been in the arena. So I'm looking her over just to confirm some stuff (and double check some of the rulings that were made before based on her feat selection) Scorn Earth: - Is it just me or is the ability, at distances above 1ft above the ground, just like 10 ft fly speed (if wanted) with the Psi levitate penalties. - What is the action to activate/deactivate the ability? Granted the ability is constant, but I'm guessing that it is a Std to activate or deactivate it as it doesn't list an alternate form. - Any Balance checks are still required regardless of the fact that I am not touching the ground (confirmation) Up The Walls in conjunction with Scorn Earth: - Up the walls must begin with movement on the ground. Ie: I cannot double move up a wall, but I can Up the walls a single move and then take advantage of the Scorn Earth floating ability at the end of the single move. (confirmation) Okay, I have time to take a closer look: All (Su) abilities take a standard action to activate unless otherwise specified. However, note that there's precious little reason to do so. You wouldn't need to deactivate it to Run up the Walls, for instance. As for Balance: It's true that you can't ignore slanted or narrow surfaces; for slanted ones, you still have to move uphill or downhill, or with one foot higher than the other, and with narrow ones, you still have to keep your feet precisely above the surface. But if you fail, it's impossible to fall; you just start levitating.
Erithmu 06-24-07, 11:24 PM	Okay, I have time to take a closer look: All (Su) abilities take a standard action to activate unless otherwise specified. However, note that there's precious little reason to do so. You wouldn't need to deactivate it to Run up the Walls, for instance. As for Balance: It's true that you can't ignore slanted or narrow surfaces; for slanted ones, you still have to move uphill or downhill, or with one foot higher than the other, and with narrow ones, you still have to keep your feet precisely above the surface. But if you fail, it's impossible to fall; you just start levitating. I wanted to know mostly for deactivation, I have landing on my armor so I get to ignore 60ft of falling damage, that seems useful to me. And ok so failed balance checks result in levitate kicking in.
Abyssal Stalker 06-25-07, 12:35 AM	Jonathon cost me something like 40 credits, I don't remember the exact number...
Vathelokai 06-25-07, 02:36 AM	Rough draft of Auburn in Twilight is up in the characters thread. All feedback appreciated.
Zevox 06-25-07, 11:25 AM	Okay, I have a rough draft of the Dragon I'm working on up: "Nimbus" the Silver. I don't doubt that he'll change, perhaps a lot, before I can actually activate him (especially since theres still at least one 10-credit expenditure I plan on making before then), but I figured I'd get him out there and see what everyone thought of my ideas, given he'll cost me a cool 40 credits. The present plan is that he'll take a level of Psychic Warrior first, gaining Power Attack as his bonus feat and getting access to cheaper expansion, then he'll grab a level of Cleric. Since that will be his 9th hit dice, he'll be just in time to take Divine Might, which will be central to his build. Then he'll take 3 racial HD, improving to a Very Young Dragon, and thus medium size (whats very nice is that the LA doesn't change, so it won't even cost credits :) ). To offset the maneuverability loss, he'll take Wingover at that level. And from there he'll take Warmind levels until the end. Basic strategy will be to take advantage of a Dragon's full attacks. Since they're based on their size, using Expansion gets him extra attacks - at medium size, they have five attacks (bite, 2 claws, 2 wings); and at large they add a tail attack to that (which gets 1.5*strength to damage to boot). Add divine might and power attack to that and the damage potential could get insane, and with a Dragon's flight speed avoiding getting full attacked will be all but impossible for most foes. Mayhaps if I cough up for a particularly expensive Dorje he could even go to huge size, although that would really only benefit damage, since huge Dragons' new crush ability only works against small or smaller foes. Thats just the basic idea, of course, and even it could change. I'm not sure that Divine Might is worth the charisma investment it needs to be good, for instance - moving those points to strength, constitution, and intelligence could be quite good for him. Hes also feat-light for my tastes, so I'm considering going straight Psychic Warrior instead of Warmind (although then the bab and pp loss will be annoying). Other things I'm debating about doing with him include Paladin levels, Use Magic Device, Leadership, and switching to a Bronze Dragon. Zevox
Zevox 06-25-07, 11:40 AM	Rough draft of Auburn in Twilight is up in the characters thread. All feedback appreciated. Why so many points in strength? Seems for a wizard, thats the least important stat. Why not use them to boost dexterity and/or constitution - at least those are relevant to a wizard (AC, ranged touch attacks, hp, concentration, reflex and fortitude saves). Charisma seems similarly unimportant, unless you plan on taking leadership or are just that worried about ego whip. From the fact that you have skill focus (spellcraft), I take it you plan on going Archmage? Might I suggest replacing that with a spell focus feat? Those are required for Archmage too, and are more useful than skill focus - you could wait until the last feat you take before entering the class to take that one so its the least hindrance to you. Thats what I'm doing with Kathren, for instance. Do you really think that skin of nimbleness is worth it? You can do a lot with 10k gp, and +10 to tumble seems like one of the lesser options for that. A dexterity boost and a few of your own ranks to go with that instant mastery bonus could do wonders for your tumble modifier without that huge gp investment. Oo, I see you have Lesser Planar Binding as one of your spells. I'll be interested to see how that gets used, given our rules here don't yet encompass it works with us. Speaking of your spells, I take it you haven't finished selecting ones for your book? Since it seems like theres terribly few in there. Zevox
Macbrea 06-25-07, 01:02 PM	On Nimbus, If you change out Fly-by attack for wild talent you would instantly qualify for Warmind. (minus the quest) This would allow you to take a level of warmind to be able to use a dorje of expansionA-8 [ml 9]. Assuming from there you take dragon for 3 more levels and increase his size. You will have to sell off his armor and rebuy it. Isn't that big of deal. Now, on Divine might.. is +4 damage really worth it?
TelinArtho 06-25-07, 01:13 PM	On Nimbus, If you change out Fly-by attack for wild talent you would instantly qualify for Warmind. (minus the quest) This would allow you to take a level of warmind to be able to use a dorje of expansionA-8 [ml 9]. Assuming from there you take dragon for 3 more levels and increase his size. You will have to sell off his armor and rebuy it. Isn't that big of deal. Now, on Divine might.. is +4 damage really worth it? That's +4 damage on each attack in a round. So on a dragon with 5 attacks/round - that's potentially +20 damage.
Zevox 06-25-07, 01:34 PM	On Nimbus, If you change out Fly-by attack for wild talent you would instantly qualify for Warmind. (minus the quest) This would allow you to take a level of warmind to be able to use a dorje of expansionA-8 [ml 9]. Assuming from there you take dragon for 3 more levels and increase his size. You will have to sell off his armor and rebuy it. Isn't that big of deal. Now, on Divine might.. is +4 damage really worth it? The first really isn't worth it. Psychic Warrior nets me that dorje immediately as well, plus a bonus feat. Flyby Attack lets me strafe foes with my breath weapons, which is quite nice, especially with the paralysis breath. I already plan on taking 3 more Dragon HD to grow in size, which is why I've spent so little on his present armor. I want to minimize my loss when I have to purchase a new one. As to Divine Might, Telin has the right of it, and also note that his charisma won't necessarily stop at 18. I could get him a custom charisma-boosting item (circlet or bracelet should pass for appropriate body slot, I think), or if nothing else an Ioun Stone to boost it to 20 is just 8k gp. That nets him +5 damage to all attacks in a round, which at large size is a potential +30 damage for each turn attempt he has. Thats a lot, especially considering how much damage he'll do from strength and size alone already. Zevox
Macbrea 06-25-07, 01:36 PM	I was just looking at a method of getting to your goal faster. The divine might is ok. But, not sure it's worth the loss of 1 bab for the level of cleric. I could be wrong, I am alot. :P
Vathelokai 06-25-07, 02:04 PM	Why so many points in strength? Seems for a wizard, thats the least important stat. Why not use them to boost dexterity and/or constitution - at least those are relevant to a wizard (AC, ranged touch attacks, hp, concentration, reflex and fortitude saves). Charisma seems similarly unimportant, unless you plan on taking leadership or are just that worried about ego whip.... Zevox All good points. I've rearanged her a bit (spell focus feats, switch str to dex). Still not sure on money...
TelinArtho 06-25-07, 02:23 PM	Just want to make sure: Sir Valkin is still in the cycle he was in while frozen. In week 1 - he was still frozen, so the items used in that match (um... none) would be returned after finishing week 3. He doesn't gain any xp or gp for that match. In week 2 - he is no longer frozen. Items he uses in that match (um... none) would not be returned after finishing the match, but he does gain xp and gp, correct?
MindWandererB 06-25-07, 02:30 PM	Correct.
Salrantol 06-25-07, 02:45 PM	I've been working on a new character, Kilor Mintolo, and would appreciate any feedback and suggestions any of you might have for her.
Zevox 06-25-07, 03:05 PM	I've been working on a new character, Kilor Mintolo, and would appreciate any feedback and suggestions any of you might have for her. Heh, three under construction characters introduced in one day. Looks pretty good - improved sunder and an adamatine two-handed weapon for eliminating enemy weapons, divine might for extra damage, leadership for an ally, high strength and charisma to work with all those. The lack of a dex score might bite you a bit, especially with that reflex save and AC, though you could offset it to AC if you got some heavier armor (full plate, particularly adamantine, would do wonders), and your expeditious retreat wand easily offsets the speed loss. The lack of ranged abilities is also a weakness, since flying archers or wizards will be all but an auto-loss if they have decent AC. Why is the bow darkwood, though? All that does is halve its wieght (hardly matters with your strength, wouldn't matter at all if you had heavier armor) and maybe give it another hit point or two vs sundering. Seems like a waste of money to me. You have a minor error with your turning - you list it as 7/day, but it should be 6 (3+3cha), or 8 when using your charm domain power. Whats the plan for his future? He looks like he'd be perfect for the Slayer PrC - just pick up a Ranger level for the Track feat and knowledge ranks and you're in, and you get to advance that wilder manifesting without advancing you many pp you lose when enervated, plus have full bab and some nice special abilities along the way. Zevox
SoulLord 06-25-07, 03:37 PM	All good points. I've rearanged her a bit (spell focus feats, switch str to dex). Still not sure on money... As for skills you might want to add spot listen tumble
lonewolf 06-25-07, 04:25 PM	Hi everyone! I am returning to CoCo (at least for the Summer). I just found out that MWB replaced Cat as GM. How did that happen? I also saw that Raskos won the Ironman Tournament; Congratulations Sauro!! Could anyone look at my characters (Karen Douglas, Samuel Highground, Kitty and The Chameleon) and tell me if I have to adjust anything because of changed rules? If possible those characters would also like to rejoin their guilds if possible. glad to be back again lonewolf
MindWandererB 06-25-07, 04:32 PM	Hi everyone! I am returning to CoCo (at least for the Summer). I just found out that MWB replaced Cat as GM. How did that happen? I also saw that Raskos won the Ironman Tournament; Congratulations Sauro!! Could anyone look at my characters (Karen Douglas, Samuel Highground, Kitty and The Chameleon) and tell me if I have to adjust anything because of changed rules? If possible those characters would also like to rejoin their guilds if possible. glad to be back again lonewolf All your characters would have to do another membership mini to get back into their guilds. TLT would certainly be glad to have Kitty back!
Zevox 06-25-07, 04:38 PM	Hi everyone! I am returning to CoCo (at least for the Summer). I just found out that MWB replaced Cat as GM. How did that happen? I also saw that Raskos won the Ironman Tournament; Congratulations Sauro!! Could anyone look at my characters (Karen Douglas, Samuel Highground, Kitty and The Chameleon) and tell me if I have to adjust anything because of changed rules? If possible those characters would also like to rejoin their guilds if possible. glad to be back again lonewolf Awesome! Great to see you back lonewolf! :D On the GM switch, thats a bit of a long tale. If you check the Iron Man Comments & Concerns thread and Cat's Abdication thread (the search function is working now, btw, so that should help find them) you can find where the argument that initiated it occurred and where Cat announced his departure. MWB replaced him because he and Sauro were the ones Cat had wanted to do so, and MWB has more time for GM stuff than Sauro. On your characters and rules changes, there hasn't been much, but there are three that bear mentioning for your characters. Starting next week, some major changes to handle animal and purchased allies go into effect, including that advanced allies are no longer allowed, which means you'll need to downgrade Karen's Pegasus (you can get a refund by posting in the Training Hall, of course). The second is actually one that will help Chameleon - it hasn't gone into effect yet, but recent Council discussions have us replacing the "DC 0 listen to hear an attack" rule with an MS check (at a penalty that hasn't been decided yet). And the third is just a general change you might want to plan for - the restriction of wands and potions to minimum CL and being on the DMG tables has been lifted, so you can get a wand or potion at any CL and with any spell that don't violate the core rules of those items (not above 4th level in wands, not above 3rd in potions, potions can't be personal range). Edit: Oh, and this goes for the limitation that tattoos must be minimum ML as well. As for the Guilds, you'll have to do new miniquests to rejoin them, but I imagine you'll be welcome back everywhere. I know the EHTC would love to have The Chameleon back - we'll probably need to upgrade our basic living quarters to a fancy one soon, given that she'd fill up the last space in our current fancy quarters, but that was inevitable anyway once one of the current level 6s levels up. And again, welcome back, great to see you again! Zevox
Erithmu 06-25-07, 04:43 PM	I've been working on a new character, Kilor Mintolo, and would appreciate any feedback and suggestions any of you might have for her. Agree with Zevox on the lack of ranged combat options, even in the selection of your cohort. If (that being a very big if) you can get them into melee you win, but that won't always be the case. Hi everyone! I am returning to CoCo (at least for the Summer). I just found out that MWB replaced Cat as GM. How did that happen? I also saw that Raskos won the Ironman Tournament; Congratulations Sauro!! Could anyone look at my characters (Karen Douglas, Samuel Highground, Kitty and The Chameleon) and tell me if I have to adjust anything because of changed rules? If possible those characters would also like to rejoin their guilds if possible. glad to be back again lonewolfI took a quick look, and they are pretty much in order, you might see if you updated them with their last fights, it seems that the last linked fight on a couple of them is 'before' the ready date that you have set. Welcome back.
lonewolf 06-25-07, 04:53 PM	Yeah I just started updating the character sheets and noticed that I have to level up Kitty. And I remember now that I didnt really knew what I wanted to do with her. Any suggestions? At the moment Im thinking about a cleric level mainly for Magic and Travel domain => escape grapples and cheaper expendables Any better ideas? EDIT: And I just noticed that I had already purchased a Wand of MM so it seems I was already planning something like that. :D
Salrantol 06-25-07, 05:03 PM	Heh, three under construction characters introduced in one day.Well, I'd been working on her for a while and holding off until I had the credits, but given the precedent of posting them for advice credit-free, I couldn't hold off any longerThe lack of a dex score might bite you a bit, especially with that reflex save and AC, though you could offset it to AC if you got some heavier armor (full plate, particularly adamantine, would do wonders), and your expeditious retreat wand easily offsets the speed loss.Yeah, only the cost kept me out of adamantine full plate, but with Craft(armorsmithing), I can upgrade with no net loss of gold later. The lack of ranged abilities is also a weakness, since flying archers or wizards will be all but an auto-loss if they have decent AC.I've been looking at how to close that gap--would taking my chances on higher-level magic missile wands and hoping I roll a 5, 7, or 9 be good enough for those situations (admittedly excluding the wizards)? Scrolls of true strike + archery?Why is the bow darkwood, though? All that does is halve its wieght (hardly matters with your strength, wouldn't matter at all if you had heavier armor) and maybe give it another hit point or two vs sundering. Seems like a waste of money to me.Only 30 gp and my weight was looking close at the point I switched it...plus I think it's just a little more in the style category.You have a minor error with your turning - you list it as 7/day, but it should be 6 (3+3cha), or 8 when using your charm domain power.Ah, that's because I didn't change it after I switched STR and CHA around. I'll correct that.Whats the plan for his future? He looks like he'd be perfect for the Slayer PrC - just pick up a Ranger level for the Track feat and knowledge ranks and you're in, and you get to advance that wilder manifesting without advancing you many pp you lose when enervated, plus have full bab and some nice special abilities along the way.Well, the plan for her future is 1-2 levels of either Warmind or Psychic Warrior to shamelessly steal Arden Tarmik's wild surge technique and then into Slayer, either with or without the ranger level. I am actually also debating swapping out the cleric level for a dip into ranger to get into Slayer sooner, but the wands of shield and expeditious retreat are just too tempting.
lonewolf 06-25-07, 05:07 PM	Another question: Does the Leadership Feat use your ECL or your Hitdice for the purpose of Leadership score and highest available cohort?
TelinArtho 06-25-07, 05:08 PM	Another question: Does the Leadership Feat use your ECL or your Hitdice for the purpose of Leadership score and highest available cohort? ECL - although you still need to have at least 6HD to get the feat to begin with.
Zevox 06-25-07, 05:09 PM	Another question: Does the Leadership Feat use your ECL or your Hitdice for the purpose of Leadership score and highest available cohort? Normally HD, but we have a house rule here that has it using ECL instead (don't ask me why - its an artifact of Cat's). Zevox
MindWandererB 06-25-07, 05:09 PM	Another question: Does the Leadership Feat use your ECL or your Hitdice for the purpose of Leadership score and highest available cohort? By our house rules, it uses HD to determine when you can get it, but ECL to determine your Leadership score and maximum cohort ECL.
lonewolf 06-25-07, 05:12 PM	one answer would have been sufficient ;) I request that Kitty gets the Special Power tag that she deserves because of her 4 racial Hitdice.
TelinArtho 06-25-07, 05:13 PM	Just a note to pass along: Due to the outpouring of "Anti-Denthians" - I've decided on two things: 1. I'm going to work on a campaign around the Denthians. The primary purpose of which is to take them down a notch in power. EL is TBD but will likely be 10+. I would rather do something a little lower on the power scale - but something that high should be fun too... 2. I'm proposing an event. (Zevox - see Guildlords' PM box for details). If it gets approved and if we get the details worked out - it will be the setup for the campaign.
MindWandererB 06-25-07, 07:11 PM	one answer would have been sufficient ;) I request that Kitty gets the Special Power tag that she deserves because of her 4 racial Hitdice. Then you might want to mention this on the character sheet--it mentions only 2 racial HD.
SauroGrenom 06-25-07, 09:57 PM	Just a note to pass along: Due to the outpouring of "Anti-Denthians" - I've decided on two things: 1. I'm going to work on a campaign around the Denthians. The primary purpose of which is to take them down a notch in power. EL is TBD but will likely be 10+. I would rather do something a little lower on the power scale - but something that high should be fun too... 2. I'm proposing an event. (Zevox - see Guildlords' PM box for details). If it gets approved and if we get the details worked out - it will be the setup for the campaign. I've a character that would be interested in such a thing. Retikos is a conjurer variant and Elf Paragon. He's interested in earing his fame as a conjurer, and using conjurations while defeating the Denthians is an obvious way to build some fame. He's not a guild character, but I suppose he could join TAO.
Vathelokai 06-25-07, 10:06 PM	Rules question: can the ability score penalty (such as from fatigue) reduce your str to 0?
Guildmaster (WAR) 06-25-07, 11:30 PM	I'm just in for a quickie. This is my first post on my reactivated home computer! YAY! :cool:
Vathelokai 06-26-07, 01:14 AM	Once more into the breach.... Auburn in Twilight, take 2. Note the spells and build stuff in the Misc. sblock.
Malither76 06-26-07, 02:22 AM	I loved the first campaign Gareth did with King Uther, I would be down to do it with any of my 3 characters depending on alignment.
Zevox 06-26-07, 02:34 AM	Once more into the breach.... Auburn in Twilight, take 2. Note the spells and build stuff in the Misc. sblock. Wow thats a lot of spells in that there book... ...how will you ever pick which ones to prepare? ;) Lets see here... well, I'm still a bit confused by the 6 points of charisma. Any particular reason you're giving her that much charisma? For her future plan, might I ask why you're taking the High Arcana you are in particular? It seems to me that two spell-likes might be a bit heavy on the spell level loss. Perhaps consider giving her Arcane Reach instead - would make touch spells much easier to use (think of things like Plane Shift with that). Though if you had something specific in mind, perhaps the two spell-likes are a good idea. Otherwise, looks pretty solid to me. @ Telin - Replied to your PM on Guildlords'. I'd also be interested in that campaign - doesn't sound like any of my current ECL 10+ characters would be good for it, but perhaps I could get Nimbus ready in time for it, depending on how long it will be until it starts. That could be a very interesting way to start his career. Plus some of his Draconic abilities would be more useful in a campaign than the arena (Cloudwalking and shape-shifting, for instance). Zevox
lonewolf 06-26-07, 03:02 AM	Then you might want to mention this on the character sheet--it mentions only 2 racial HD. Kitty is a Pseudodragon(2HD) with 2 additional racial Hitdice = 4 racial Hitdice total
TheMagister 06-26-07, 03:06 AM	"Sdentch the Angelic" eh? Well, to say the least, it'll be interesting to see how you pull this off in RP. Though I've gotta say, thats a lot more credits you're spending on her than I think I'd ever spend on one character. 60 credits... sheesh, I didn't think I'd ever see anyone short of Cat or King Uther spend that many at once. I never use 'em for anything else of worth. I figured that I'd spend 'em on something that brings other people (and myself) enjoyment -- and I know Telin missed her. I think the damage on that shield is off. According to the bashing ability, a medium heavy shield does 1d8 damage, so a large one should do 2d6, not 3d6. Any why is it that you gave the shield 1.5*str to damage? Its a shield, it has to be worn on one arm - no two-arm option. Making it spiked lets me treat it as an additional size category larger. So one effect is a spell effect, and the other is a mundane effect. They stack. Neat, huh? As to the 2-hand damage: once the FAQ clarified that a shield can be wielded as a primary weapon just like any other weapon could be, there was no reason to not allow it to be swung two handed. I always picture her swinging the blunt edge like a big-ass axe, but one arm is in the straps and the other is grasping the strapped arm's hand with laced fingers. One big torso movement later you've got a hella fast movin' shield! Half-Orc Paragon eh? Plan on having her take Human or Orc Paragon levels later on with that Divided Anscestry ability, I take it? Human Paragon would probably help a lot - good will saves, adaptive learning skill, bonus feat, and +2 str at the end (which is the only worthwhile thing Orc Paragon gives anyway). Could be interesting to see where that leads. From playing Asran, I can tell you right now that will save is going to bite you. The SR is little defense, since any straight caster pierces it at least 75% of the time (more with things like Spell Penetration or Spell Power from Red Wizard or Archmage). The reflex save probably will too, especially since she doesn't get resist fire from her template. Best watch out for that. Zevox I dunno whether I'll go straight fighter from here out (I'm trying to stick to her original build at least a little...) or max the strength. The extra will save is the best benefit of Human Paragon, imo. Speaking of which -- would you swap out power attack for iron will? I'm seriously considering it, and have been since I put her on paper... TM
Zevox 06-26-07, 03:16 AM	Making it spiked lets me treat it as an additional size category larger. So one effect is a spell effect, and the other is a mundane effect. They stack. Neat, huh? Where do you get that from? Its definitely not in the bashing enchantment's entry. Is there an FAQ entry for it or something? I dunno whether I'll go straight fighter from here out (I'm trying to stick to her original build at least a little...) or max the strength. The extra will save is the best benefit of Human Paragon, imo. I don't know, I'd tend to think that a bonus feat without a list restriction is a rather nice benefit. Speaking of which -- would you swap out power attack for iron will? I'm seriously considering it, and have been since I put her on paper... Personally, I think Iron Will is a pretty weak feat. As King Uther once advised me when I was considering it for Featylec, that meager +2 won't usually make a difference to your save, and you lose out on another, potentially much stronger feat to get it. Here especially I wouldn't take it - Power Attack is much better, especially given your high attack mod, standstill feat (power attack is like a DC boost to that feat, and better than any ability focus feat), and the fact that it opens up potential future feats (Improved Sunder being the most potent). Zevox
TheMagister 06-26-07, 04:35 AM	To answer the "spiked shield" query: just read the equipment entry in the PHB. It says so right there.
Macbrea 06-26-07, 08:25 AM	Have a question: Rogue 7, UMD +12 What is the above rogue considered for CL when buying wands?
Erithmu 06-26-07, 09:10 AM	Have a question: Rogue 7, UMD +12 What is the above rogue considered for CL when buying wands? UMD - 10 = CL ... so in this case CL 2, but that is only for expendables. Wands are limited by ECL so you can get CL 7 wands.
Abyssal Stalker 06-26-07, 09:51 AM	Do temporary hit points gained via energy drain stack? Each successful energy drain bestows one or more negative levels (the creature’s description specifies how many). If an attack that includes an energy drain scores a critical hit, it drains twice the given amount. A creature gains 5 temporary hit points (10 on a critical hit) for each negative level it bestows (though not if the negative level is caused by a spell or similar effect). These temporary hit points last for a maximum of 1 hour. The bolded part seems to indicate that the answer is yes. Edit: Or then again... Temporary hit points from two applications of the same effect don’t stack; instead, the highest number of temporary hit points applies in place of all others. Temporary hit points from different sources stack, but you must keep track of them separately. For example, imagine a character who gained 15 temporary hit points from an aid spell. After taking 8 points of damage, she has 7 temporary hit points left from the spell. If another aid spell were cast on the same character granting 12 temporary hit points, this total would replace the other spell’s total, meaning the character would now have 12 temporary hit points (rather than 19). If the character then cast false life on herself, she would add the full benefit of that spell to the temporary hit points from the aid spell. This also applies to temporary hit points gained from energy drain and similar special abilities. Each successful attack counts as one application of the effect (meaning that an attack that bestows 2 or more negative levels still counts as only one application of the effect). For example, a wight gains 5 temporary hit points each time it bestows a negative level with its slam attack. If it bestows another negative level while it has 2 temporary hit points remaining from the first attack, the new temporary hit points would replace the old ones. Temporary hit points are “first-in, first-out.” Damage should be taken off the oldest temporary-hit-point-granting effect first; when that effect is exhausted, apply damage to the next oldest effect. For this reason, you
Macbrea 06-26-07, 09:51 AM	Well, I am currently trying to make Marcus legal under the current system. It appears I will have to sell his Scroll of Deeper Slumber [CL 5] off as he is only CL 2 assassin. It isn't available to him until CL 5.
TelinArtho 06-26-07, 10:10 AM	I've a character that would be interested in such a thing. Retikos is a conjurer variant and Elf Paragon. He's interested in earing his fame as a conjurer, and using conjurations while defeating the Denthians is an obvious way to build some fame. He's not a guild character, but I suppose he could join TAO. The campaign, when it is ready, will not be a guild-only campaign. The event sparking it (assuming I can get the kinks worked out) will be a guild event in a way. No details yet as Zevox, MWB and I work it out of course... @ Telin - Replied to your PM on Guildlords'. I'd also be interested in that campaign - doesn't sound like any of my current ECL 10+ characters would be good for it, but perhaps I could get Nimbus ready in time for it, depending on how long it will be until it starts. That could be a very interesting way to start his career. Plus some of his Draconic abilities would be more useful in a campaign than the arena (Cloudwalking and shape-shifting, for instance). And I replied again - MWB - feel free to chime in when you can. I think the campaign will have an over-abundance of applicants. Sdentch and Auburn are "shoo-ins" so to speak because of their past involvement (assuming they want the positions), but beyond that I am willing to take anyone. I am accustomed to running 8-10 person campaigns, but I'm not sure how well that would translate here... might be better to just get one going and then do a second campaign for those who didn't get in...
SoulLord 06-26-07, 12:53 PM	Once more into the breach.... Auburn in Twilight, take 2. Note the spells and build stuff in the Misc. sblock. the only thing that jups to mind is the feat for Skill Focus: Knowledge Planes where you would be able to take something much nicer like craft wand at that level
Erithmu 06-26-07, 01:12 PM	the only thing that jups to mind is the feat for Skill Focus: Knowledge Planes where you would be able to take something much nicer like craft wand at that levelPrC requirement
Hirumajoe 06-26-07, 01:29 PM	So its time again for me to come before the collective wisdom of the CoCo members, and ask their opinion: What should I do with 16,000 gp for Valen? I'm tempted by Surpression (psionic +2 enhancement) which will get Valen a 1d20+12 targeted dispel every time he wacks something with his +1 Adamantine Greatsword. Or I could buy a +4 Dex Gloves, saving me an action in my buff sequence (not to mention 3pp each fight - hmm... 3 3pp Cognizance crystals go for 12,000 gp though). And has the advantage that they're not dispellable. Or I could just try some overall defensive improvements, like +2->+3 cloak of resistance (5,000 gp), +2 Armor -> +3 Armor (5,000 gp), Ring of Deflection +1 -> +2 (6,000). Two more AC and one more saves can't be a bad thing, right? Thanks in advance for any and all ideas. :)
templer10 06-26-07, 01:54 PM	So its time again for me to come before the collective wisdom of the CoCo members, and ask their opinion: What should I do with 16,000 gp for Valen? I'm tempted by Surpression (psionic +2 enhancement) which will get Valen a 1d20+12 targeted dispel every time he wacks something with his +1 Adamantine Greatsword. Or I could buy a +4 Dex Gloves, saving me an action in my buff sequence (not to mention 3pp each fight - hmm... 3 3pp Cognizance crystals go for 12,000 gp though). And has the advantage that they're not dispellable. Or I could just try some overall defensive improvements, like +2->+3 cloak of resistance (5,000 gp), +2 Armor -> +3 Armor (5,000 gp), Ring of Deflection +1 -> +2 (6,000). Two more AC and one more saves can't be a bad thing, right? Thanks in advance for any and all ideas. :) Assuming you can get to said enemy - the suppresion is ridiculasly cheap for what it does - Think how much peeps Buff here - especially at higher ECL's, now think that most expendbles arent at top CL/ML....
TelinArtho 06-26-07, 02:26 PM	Okay - I have started putting together of list of those interested in an anti-Denthian campaign. So far, here's what I've got for applicants (order is not necessarily representative of preference, but rather order of application): Characters Interested: Sdentch the Angelic (ECL10, TheMagister) Half-Celestial Half-Orc Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 2/Half-Orc Paragon 3/Fighter 1, Neutral Good Auburn in Twilight (ECL10, Vathelokai) Air Gnome Conjurer (Rapid Summoner variant) 7/Loremaster 3, Neutral Good Owen Ir'Tolden (ECL10, Erithmu) Human Abjurer 5/Red Wizard 5, Neutral Retikos, the Paradparasha Sage (ECL10, SauroGrenom) Phrenic Gray Elf Conjurer 5, Elf Paragon 3, Neutral Malither76 - any of his characters, alignment dependant (Baelin - Wood Elf Rogue 5/Assassin 5, Neutral Evil; Gareth - Half-Giant Psychic Warrior 9, Chaotic Good; Malik of Black Robe - Gray Elf Wizard 9, Lawful Evil) Nimbus (ECL11, Zevox) Wyrmling Silver Dragon, Lawful Good Vandelar the Red (ECL10, Soullord) Gray Elf Necromancer 10, Neutral Aerryl Nalladar (ECL10, MindWandererB) Elf Druid 10, Neutral Willowmoon (ECL10, MitzaVolchenko) Unicorn Paladin of Freedom 2, Chaotic Good Feel free to mention interest here or in a PM. I don't yet know when the campaign will start (still need to finish drafting it and all...), and there is the possibility of a second campaign group if there's enough interest. Also - for the first one, its looking like 5 characters will be good...
Zevox 06-26-07, 02:33 PM	So its time again for me to come before the collective wisdom of the CoCo members, and ask their opinion: What should I do with 16,000 gp for Valen? I'm tempted by Surpression (psionic +2 enhancement) which will get Valen a 1d20+12 targeted dispel every time he wacks something with his +1 Adamantine Greatsword. Or I could buy a +4 Dex Gloves, saving me an action in my buff sequence (not to mention 3pp each fight - hmm... 3 3pp Cognizance crystals go for 12,000 gp though). And has the advantage that they're not dispellable. Or I could just try some overall defensive improvements, like +2->+3 cloak of resistance (5,000 gp), +2 Armor -> +3 Armor (5,000 gp), Ring of Deflection +1 -> +2 (6,000). Two more AC and one more saves can't be a bad thing, right? Thanks in advance for any and all ideas. :) Suppression seems like just the ability to pick up for you at this point. Theres a good many characters out there where one good hit with such a weapon would easily turn the tide of battle in your favor. I'd certainly take that in your postion - you can pick up those fairly cheap boosts to AC and saves any time later. A single victory at level 10+ will get you enough money for any of them. Zevox
Zevox 06-26-07, 02:39 PM	Okay - I have started putting together of list of those interested in an anti-Denthian campaign. So far, here's what I've got for applicants (order is not necessarily representative of preference, but rather order of application): Characters Interested: Sdentch the Angelic (ECL10, TheMagister) Half-Celestial Half-Orc Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 2/Half-Orc Paragon 3/Fighter 1, Neutral Good Auburn in Twilight (ECL10, Vathelokai) Air Gnome Conjurer (Rapid Summoner variant) 7/Loremaster 3, Neutral Good Owen Ir'Tolden (ECL10, Erithmu) Human Abjurer 5/Red Wizard 5, Neutral Retikos, the Paradparasha Sage (ECL10, SauroGrenom) Phrenic Gray Elf Conjurer 5, Elf Paragon 3, Neutral Malither76 - any of his characters, alignment dependant (Baelin - Wood Elf Rogue 5/Assassin 5, Neutral Evil; Gareth - Half-Giant Psychic Warrior 9, Chaotic Good; Malik of Black Robe - Gray Elf Wizard 9, Lawful Evil) Nimbus (ECL11, Zevox) Wyrmling Silver Dragon, Lawful Good Vandelar the Red (ECL10, Soullord) Gray Elf Necromancer 10, Neutral Feel free to mention interest here or in a PM. I don't yet know when the campaign will start (still need to finish drafting it and all...), and there is the possibility of a second campaign group if there's enough interest. Also - for the first one, its looking like 5 characters will be good... Don't count too much on Nimbus just yet. He'll cost a good 40 credits to activate, and at present, I have only 4. Still, I'll put my other planned credit expenditures on hold to see if I can build up enough in time. It'll take a while though... Zevox
Hirumajoe 06-26-07, 02:42 PM	So Suppression sounds like a winner. Although here's a question for people: Say I take that Adamantine Greatsword +1 Suppression and sunder an opponents +2 Longbow. I assume the Suppression triggers, and attempts to supress the functioning of the Longbow, making it just a plain longbow for 1d4 rounds. Say the dispel works. Now what happens to the bonus hp for being +2? (10 hp I think?) If it goes away, and the damage dealt is just enough to break the base longbow, what happens when the magic resumes functioning? Is it still a broken bow?
TelinArtho 06-26-07, 02:45 PM	This was discussed before I believe and the consensus at the time (I think - I should do some searching...) was that the dispel would take place at the same time - and therefore take effect after the sunder attempt. So the sunder would have to deal with the extra hardness, but once the HP is reduced - the new HP total might be decreased enough to destroy the item. Let me search on it though - to make sure I'm not misspeaking...
SoulLord 06-26-07, 02:52 PM	PrC requirement ah totally missed that Loremaster requirement.
Hirumajoe 06-26-07, 03:00 PM	This was discussed before I believe and the consensus at the time (I think - I should do some searching...) was that the dispel would take place at the same time - and therefore take effect after the sunder attempt. So the sunder would have to deal with the extra hardness, but once the HP is reduced - the new HP total might be decreased enough to destroy the item. Let me search on it though - to make sure I'm not misspeaking... I remember the discussion on the timing of the dispel, i.e. after the hit and thus full hardness as you indicate, but I don't remember if the hit point issue was discussed. And thanks for searching.
TelinArtho 06-26-07, 03:04 PM	Here's the "extensive discussion": If you attempt to sunder an opponent's magic weapon with a weapon of Suppression (+2 enhancement equivalent psionic weapon ability), what happens? 1) The sunder damage occurs first, and the item's magically enhanced hardness is used. If the dispel psionics effect works, the weapon's hit points to base non-magic hp *or* magically enhanced hit points minus damage dealt, which ever is lower. 2) The sunder damage occurs first, and the item's magically enhanced hardness is used. If the dispel psionics effect works, the weapon's hit points drop to base non-magic hp minus damage dealt so far and possibly breaks. 3)The targeted dispel effect goes off first and the item's non-magic hardness and hit points are used. 4) The target dispel effect only targets the person, not the weapon he's wielding and this entire question is completely off base. 5) None of the above. Hirumajoe, This is a hard one. I must congratulate you. This combination of supression and sundering is powerfull. It's a potent combo, and it's the first time I've seen it being suggested by anyone. As I read it, the supression effect can indeed effect objects. And Sundering does indeed target the object. I'm inclined to have the supression effect go off simultaniously with the sunder attempt. So the magic of the blade is suppressed as the sunder happens. This is your option number 3. That makes the most sense to me. To make it official, I suppose we'd need to see some of the other elders give a vote as well. While not the exact same situation, I think this came into play in one of Kraegin's fights - versus lonewolf's Karen Douglass (not sundering, but a question of whether the suppression would occur before an effect). I think at the time it was ruled that they happen at the same time and therefore the suppression would remove the excess hardness/hp as it sunders - so the sunder has to still go through the magical hardness/hp. If someone cares to look it up before I get the chance - please do. That's all I was actually able to find on the matter...
MindWandererB 06-26-07, 04:01 PM	So Suppression sounds like a winner. Although here's a question for people: Say I take that Adamantine Greatsword +1 Suppression and sunder an opponents +2 Longbow. I assume the Suppression triggers, and attempts to supress the functioning of the Longbow, making it just a plain longbow for 1d4 rounds. Say the dispel works. Now what happens to the bonus hp for being +2? (10 hp I think?) If it goes away, and the damage dealt is just enough to break the base longbow, what happens when the magic resumes functioning? Is it still a broken bow? The general rule--and I have no recollection of where this is printed (FAQ?)--is that when two things happen simultaneously, the "controller" of the effect determines the timing of resolution. So the suppression would occur first, then the sunder, because that's the more desirable option to the attacker.
TheMagister 06-26-07, 04:50 PM	It's worth mentioning that the suppression special ability only functions 3/day, according to the XPH -- not every hit. So you'd pretty much have to declare it; like a deep impact or something. TM
templer10 06-26-07, 05:01 PM	It's worth mentioning that the suppression special ability only functions 3/day, according to the XPH -- not every hit. So you'd pretty much have to declare it; like a deep impact or something. TM read the fine print (and it was discussed before) it only works 3/day if used on a ranged weapon.
SauroGrenom 06-26-07, 05:02 PM	Okay - I have started putting together of list of those interested in an anti-Denthian campaign. So far, here's what I've got for applicants (order is not necessarily representative of preference, but rather order of application): Characters Interested: Sdentch the Angelic (ECL10, TheMagister) Half-Celestial Half-Orc Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 2/Half-Orc Paragon 3/Fighter 1, Neutral Good Auburn in Twilight (ECL10, Vathelokai) Air Gnome Conjurer (Rapid Summoner variant) 7/Loremaster 3, Neutral Good Owen Ir'Tolden (ECL10, Erithmu) Human Abjurer 5/Red Wizard 5, Neutral Retikos, the Paradparasha Sage (ECL10, SauroGrenom) Phrenic Gray Elf Conjurer 5, Elf Paragon 3, Neutral Malither76 - any of his characters, alignment dependant (Baelin - Wood Elf Rogue 5/Assassin 5, Neutral Evil; Gareth - Half-Giant Psychic Warrior 9, Chaotic Good; Malik of Black Robe - Gray Elf Wizard 9, Lawful Evil) Nimbus (ECL11, Zevox) Wyrmling Silver Dragon, Lawful Good Vandelar the Red (ECL10, Soullord) Gray Elf Necromancer 10, Neutral Feel free to mention interest here or in a PM. I don't yet know when the campaign will start (still need to finish drafting it and all...), and there is the possibility of a second campaign group if there's enough interest. Also - for the first one, its looking like 5 characters will be good...Retikos has a cleric cohort who converts to healing, so he will bring some clerical ability to the table for a campaign.
TheMagister 06-26-07, 05:10 PM	Boy, then that special ability is powerful.
TelinArtho 06-26-07, 05:23 PM	Retikos has a cleric cohort who converts to healing, so he will bring some clerical ability to the table for a campaign. I have no care about the healing ability of the party... what the party should be concerned about is the healing ability of the opposing force... :D On a side note - the initial campaign request has been sent to Pitlords for approval. Assuming there's no problems - this is going to get going soon... well maybe...
Erithmu 06-26-07, 05:29 PM	On a side note - the initial campaign request has been sent to Pitlords for approval. Assuming there's no problems - this is going to get going soon... well maybe... Hurm if it starts soon Owen might have trouble making the deadline. He is kinda ... out of town ...
TelinArtho 06-26-07, 05:32 PM	No worries - it won't be starting right away anyway. I figure a week or two to get approved. Another week or two to get organized myself. <SOMETHING> for a week or two or three or four. Then the campaign...
TheMagister 06-26-07, 05:33 PM	Well, I'd like to run a quest with Telin at the helm that chronicles Sdentch's return. Auburn has already been "set up" with a lead-in I posted at the TAO guildhall. I have yet to send Telin info on it (I didn't expect he'd be this hungry to get it going so soon!). I'll send a PM tonight.
TelinArtho 06-26-07, 05:41 PM	Sure TM - any time you are ready. Is this to give her admittance to WAR as well? In any case, yes - things are moving forward because I am eager to see it go. Word just came down that there might be two campaigns involved... I'll keep you guys posted.
MitzaVolchenko 06-26-07, 05:43 PM	I have no care about the healing ability of the party... what the party should be concerned about is the healing ability of the opposing force... :D On a side note - the initial campaign request has been sent to Pitlords for approval. Assuming there's no problems - this is going to get going soon... well maybe... I have to quest with Willowmoon first, but I am dying to get to campaign...ECL 10 Unicorn8-2Paladin of Freedom...cohort will be druid.
TelinArtho 06-26-07, 05:44 PM	Got to go for a few hours. Don't fill my PM box up in the mean time... (or just send me an email - s t a r s t e a l e r at c o m c a s t dot n e t).
TelinArtho 06-26-07, 05:46 PM	Okay - I have started putting together of list of those interested in an anti-Denthian campaign. So far, here's what I've got for applicants (order is not necessarily representative of preference, but rather order of application): Characters Interested: Sdentch the Angelic (ECL10, TheMagister) Half-Celestial Half-Orc Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 2/Half-Orc Paragon 3/Fighter 1, Neutral Good Auburn in Twilight (ECL10, Vathelokai) Air Gnome Conjurer (Rapid Summoner variant) 7/Loremaster 3, Neutral Good Owen Ir'Tolden (ECL10, Erithmu) Human Abjurer 5/Red Wizard 5, Neutral Retikos, the Paradparasha Sage (ECL10, SauroGrenom) Phrenic Gray Elf Conjurer 5, Elf Paragon 3, Neutral Malither76 - any of his characters, alignment dependant (Baelin - Wood Elf Rogue 5/Assassin 5, Neutral Evil; Gareth - Half-Giant Psychic Warrior 9, Chaotic Good; Malik of Black Robe - Gray Elf Wizard 9, Lawful Evil) Nimbus (ECL11, Zevox) Wyrmling Silver Dragon, Lawful Good Vandelar the Red (ECL10, Soullord) Gray Elf Necromancer 10, Neutral Aerryl Nalladar (ECL10, MindWandererB) Elf Druid 10, Neutral Willowmoon (ECL10, MitzaVolchenko) Unicorn Paladin of Freedom 2, Chaotic Good Feel free to mention interest here or in a PM. I don't yet know when the campaign will start (still need to finish drafting it and all...), and there is the possibility of a second campaign group if there's enough interest. Also - for the first one, its looking like 5 characters will be good... Also - I will be updating the list above in the post that I quoted it.
amalcon 06-26-07, 06:04 PM	read the fine print (and it was discussed before) it only works 3/day if used on a ranged weapon. This actually brings up an unusual rules question: What is done here with magical enhancements that only work on melee weapons, or only work on ranged weapons, or work differently depending on which type of weapon -- if the weapon is both melee and ranged? (Basically, what happens if someone throws a dagger with that ability? Or spell storing, for that matter)
TheMagister 06-26-07, 06:42 PM	Or a +1 greatsword of suppression that gets the throwing ability placed on it?
TheMagister 06-26-07, 07:15 PM	Got to go for a few hours. Don't fill my PM box up in the mean time... (or just send me an email - s t a r s t e a l e r at c o m c a s t dot n e t). Sent you that e-mail with Sdentch's return storyline. Let me know that you received it! TM
TelinArtho 06-26-07, 08:33 PM	Sent you that e-mail with Sdentch's return storyline. Let me know that you received it! TM Received and replied to (via PM)
Hirumajoe 06-26-07, 08:38 PM	This actually brings up an unusual rules question: What is done here with magical enhancements that only work on melee weapons, or only work on ranged weapons, or work differently depending on which type of weapon -- if the weapon is both melee and ranged? (Basically, what happens if someone throws a dagger with that ability? Or spell storing, for that matter) The actual text is: Bows, crossbows, and slings bestow this ability upon their ammunition, but can do so only three times per day. So, with a thrown weapon, it occurs each time with no limit. Its only those specific cases where its bestowing it ammunition that its limited. So, yeah, Greatsword of throwing of returning of Suppression would work. :)
TheMagister 06-26-07, 09:07 PM	+1 teleporting Greatsword of Throwing and Suppression. Yeesh. ... With rapid shot. ... and whirling frenzy.
Rauul 06-26-07, 09:15 PM	Graashnak Walks into the new Tavern and orders a Drink... and waits for the Elves to overrun this one...
NiQil 06-26-07, 09:35 PM	@ Mitza: Are we a go for tomorrow's pairings for your campaign to start? I haven't really heard anything about it since you asked for confirmation a couple of weeks ago.
TheMagister 06-26-07, 09:40 PM	Well, with McJ taking time off, TBD is a no-go for the campaign.
Rauul 06-26-07, 10:33 PM	looking through the level 8 league... looks like corrupter will get a monster fight or an inter league thingie... hmmmm
Zevox 06-26-07, 11:11 PM	On a side note - the initial campaign request has been sent to Pitlords for approval. Assuming there's no problems - this is going to get going soon... well maybe... Woah, so fast?? Jesus. If things are going to get going soon, you may as well count Nimbus out. Even if I stopped activating more than 2 characters each week, continued pitlording max fights, and tried to pull in all the prison credits I could, it'd take probably a month and a half to get him active. looking through the level 8 league... looks like corrupter will get a monster fight or an inter league thingie... hmmmm Eh, well, I guess I could activate Arden to give him a foe. I was gonna deactivate him to activate both of my ECL 10s (Featylec and Eraca), but I guess one of them could take another week off. Though who to pick... Featylec isn't likely to win with all the touchsight users around at ECL 10, but after this fight he gets his Shadow Companion back; Eraca could win, but is just on fight 1, and has activated more recently than Featylec. Hm, dilemma. Zevox
Aura_Blade 06-26-07, 11:12 PM	From reading the rules on "Skills and Feats", it looks like a character cannot do a full activity of "Earn Money (profession)". Is that correct? (I did see "full activities are not improved Free Activities".)
Zevox 06-26-07, 11:15 PM	From reading the rules on "Skills and Feats", it looks like a character cannot do a full activity of "Earn Money (profession)". Is that correct? (I did see "full activities are not improved Free Activities".) Correct, of course. Else you could just spend week after week making money from a skill until you can buy whatever you want and overpower the competition due to having items much more powerful than someone your level should. Zevox
Aura_Blade 06-26-07, 11:20 PM	Okay. Not that I was going to do that, but I did think of that as well. Also, will I need to wait until EXP/GP is handed out from his last fight (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12754355&postcount=971) before I can sign him up for the next fight this week?
Zevox 06-26-07, 11:22 PM	Also, will I need to wait until EXP/GP is handed out from his last fight (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12754355&postcount=971) before I can sign him up for the next fight this week? No, at least not if you can calculate it yourself. The results are up, just because the pitlord hasn't the rewards yet doesn't mean you can't figure them out yourself and move on. Zevox
MindWandererB 06-26-07, 11:28 PM	Okay. Not that I was going to do that, but I did think of that as well. Also, will I need to wait until EXP/GP is handed out from his last fight (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12754355&postcount=971) before I can sign him up for the next fight this week? You can: a) calculate it yourself, b) get someone else to calculate it for you, or c) wait.
Rauul 06-26-07, 11:52 PM	Eh, well, I guess I could activate Arden to give him a foe. I was gonna deactivate him to activate both of my ECL 10s (Featylec and Eraca), but I guess one of them could take another week off. Though who to pick... Featylec isn't likely to win with all the touchsight users around at ECL 10, but after this fight he gets his Shadow Companion back; Eraca could win, but is just on fight 1, and has activated more recently than Featylec. Hm, dilemma. Zevox you don't have to!!!!! Corrupter is fine with monster fights and or lower peon fights.. LOL i just thought it was funny there was no ECL 8's activated.. Besides Arden is a tough cookie to crumble... would make me have to think!!
TelinArtho 06-27-07, 02:26 AM	Woah, so fast?? Jesus. If things are going to get going soon, you may as well count Nimbus out. Even if I stopped activating more than 2 characters each week, continued pitlording max fights, and tried to pull in all the prison credits I could, it'd take probably a month and a half to get him active. Don't get anxious guys. I need to run a return quest for Sdentch first - that looks like it will start a week from tomorrow (hmm - July 4th). Three weeks after that is the earliest I could feasibly start. I am also going to try to run it concurrently with another campaign if that is the solution that is reached. Assuming it is - plus all of the characters involved - I could certainly see this thing taking a little longer to get off the ground. Lots of variables to handle. Oh - and for the record - my brother (a long time player of D&D and someone who has heard me talking about this for the past week or so) has decided that you all are going to die on the campaign... he's even going to go so far as to read the campaign via subscription to get the "play-by-play" - so it would benefit everyone to prove him wrong...
TheMagister 06-27-07, 02:53 AM	{nervously} So he has an inside look and he thinks we're all toast, hey? I'm inclined to trust his judgement, especially with the history exhibited by the subject of his examination. :) TM
templer10 06-27-07, 02:56 AM	you don't have to!!!!! Corrupter is fine with monster fights and or lower peon fights.. LOL i just thought it was funny there was no ECL 8's activated.. Besides Arden is a tough cookie to crumble... would make me have to think!! ACtually elrick just leveld to ECL 8.... (havent finsihed readying him through). p.s. with 20+ SL's to boot...
Salrantol 06-27-07, 07:05 AM	How do expendables work with allies? Do they have their own individual expendables cap based on their ECL or are their expendables also considered under the expendables cap of the main character?
lonewolf 06-27-07, 07:35 AM	Is it allowed to "fire" your leadership cohort and take a new one? If yes when and how? Does it cost anything(money, credits,...)?
UserNamer 06-27-07, 09:28 AM	If a creature can cast a spell as a spell-like abilty, is that creature also possible to use scrolls/wands/staffs with spell?
lonewolf 06-27-07, 09:41 AM	If a creature can cast a spell as a spell-like abilty, is that creature also possible to use scrolls/wands/staffs with spell? Anyone with a spell on his or her spell list knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell. Since having a spelllike ability doesnt put the spell on your spelllist I would say no.
TelinArtho 06-27-07, 09:49 AM	{nervously} So he has an inside look and he thinks we're all toast, hey? I'm inclined to trust his judgement, especially with the history exhibited by the subject of his examination. :) TM Don't get me wrong - he hasn't looked at anything... he's just heard me talk about it and he's convinced you guys are all toast. He's citing the record that I have with questors as evidence - a 50% win rate in 3 week quests is tough to ignore.
TelinArtho 06-27-07, 09:50 AM	How do expendables work with allies? Do they have their own individual expendables cap based on their ECL or are their expendables also considered under the expendables cap of the main character? Each character has a set expendable cap. His allies do not have their own cap. Any equipment the main character can get can be given to the ally/allies on the character sheet. Is it allowed to "fire" your leadership cohort and take a new one? If yes when and how? Does it cost anything(money, credits,...)? In order to take a new cohort, you would release your current one and quest for a new one. It wouldn't cost money, but it would cost you a miniquest at the least.
lonewolf 06-27-07, 10:07 AM	Tanks Telin. Speaking of which: I need a questlord for Kitty for his quest to gain his leadership cohort. Any takers? EDIT: It should start on July 11th if possible.
MitzaVolchenko 06-27-07, 10:10 AM	Okay, I am short Cupid for campaign. It is suppsed to start today which means that I have a space or two still open. TM, are you in or out with Tessero? Confirmed: Valanthe-Sjiggie Garet-NiQil Graashnak-Rauul
TheMagister 06-27-07, 03:33 PM	Okay, I am short Cupid for campaign. It is suppsed to start today which means that I have a space or two still open. TM, are you in or out with Tessero? Confirmed: Valanthe-Sjiggie Garet-NiQil Graashnak-Rauul I'm out. Sorry to be bailing on you like this at the last moment. ... McJ sent me a very moving farewell PM. It made me sad and angry at the way we handled him. I won't speak for anyone else, but I think I could've done more sticking up for him. My silence as I watched people "attack" him and his ideas wasn't the performance of a "dear friend" as he labeled me. There are some of us that should be ashamed of ourselves for our small minds and hearts. Ya'll will have to forgive me if I'm not as cheery as usual today. I think we lost something special. TM
Usurpator 06-27-07, 04:47 PM	McJ sent me a very moving farewell PM. It made me sad and angry at the way we handled him. I'm sad to see him go under these conditions as well. I was thinking of sending him a PM after his terse goodbye post. We are a community of volunteers, if we don't do enough to make everybody feel valued and appreciated (even if some people can be obnoxious smart-asses at times) people are going to leave. There are some of us that should be ashamed of ourselves for our small minds and hearts. And our poor ability to express ourselves, at least, that goes for me sometimes. I believe fully many people here intend well, but communication could be better.
TelinArtho 06-27-07, 05:59 PM	[1 GAP]: - [RESEARCH] - Headquarter Augmentation II |=> 250 RES-PTS |=> (250/500)*25 = 12.5% or less |=> 250 gold - [RESEARCH] - RECRUIT Coordination I |=> 250 RES-PTS |=> (250/500)*25 = 12.5% or less |=> 250 gold [You do not have any chance of success on research until you reach the minimum threshold - in both of these cases, you need to spend 500 points.] This was something I noticed a little while back and it occurs to me a question. Once you reach the minimum threshhold - does any amount of RES-PTS trigger another check? For instance, this week, CEF invested 500 RES-PTS into research for Advanced Storage (500/500) and failed the 25% breakthrough chance. Can CEF put in 250 next week and have a 37.5% chance? What about 1 more point? Or - does it need to be a full 500 more (at least) before the next check happens?
Yitzi 06-27-07, 08:38 PM	I think only 1 more point is needed, but you're still spending a guild action.
TheMagister 06-27-07, 08:57 PM	Well, 1 Guild Action point can be used to research as many things as you want, up to the total number of points you can process. So if you wanted to research 5 different things at 100 pts each, you could.
MindWandererB 06-27-07, 09:00 PM	I think only 1 more point is needed, but you're still spending a guild action. Yeah, but you could spend 1000 to get 3 developments up to 250/250 and a fourth to 250/1000 and get a 25% chance of getting the first three, then next week spend 997 on the fourth (1247/1000=31% chance), and 3 on each of the first three... if you don't get them, you can add a fifth development to the mix next week... it's potentially a very efficient strategy, if there are a whole lot of things you want with equal priority.
TelinArtho 06-27-07, 09:07 PM	Which is kind of what I was getting at. I had researched enough this past week to get that first try on Advanced Storage - but it isn't so important that I keep trying at a high percentage - I just want to keep trying. I wasn't going to be as "bad" as 1 point - but I was hoping I could do less than 500... Anyway - question answered - thanks!
TheMagister 06-27-07, 10:28 PM	I puttered around some more with Sdentch and I think I came out with a more polished product. Mostly I figured two things: 1) that the oversized shield wasn't worth the +1d6 damage (if I want to hit harder, I can power attack for 2 and get almost the same results), and 2) All the strength in the world won't help vs. Dominate Person. I sacked the +4 str item and bought a crystal mask of mind armor. +8 Will sounds much better than +4. Whaddaya think?
Adolfo_Mondschein 06-27-07, 11:07 PM	Ok..... Why can't my third level character have a light warhorse? I mean, how many casters had to cry about being lanced before this rule came into effect?
Erithmu 06-27-07, 11:12 PM	It wasn't casters being lanced, ... it was casters being hoofed to death.
Vathelokai 06-27-07, 11:14 PM	Ok..... Why can't my third level character have a light warhorse? I mean, how many casters had to cry about being lanced before this rule came into effect? Wasn't the casters this time.... The problem was that a tricked out warhorse was just as deadly in melee as a many lv 3 gladiators. So the system of allies was rearranged so that the allies were a bit weaker at each ECL. In theory it's supposed to mirror what a druid could get as an ally at that level. I'm a bit tired, so I appologize for the not so detailed explaination.
Adolfo_Mondschein 06-27-07, 11:17 PM	So now what? Wizards can use expeditious retreat and magic missile me to death and there isn't anything wrong with that?
NiQil 06-27-07, 11:24 PM	So now what? Wizards can use expeditious retreat and magic missile me to death and there isn't anything wrong with that? If you take a look at the new ally rules, you will see that you can still have a light horse at ECL 3, just not a light warhorse. So you can still have your speed...just not a mount that can also attack when mounted.
Adolfo_Mondschein 06-27-07, 11:36 PM	Light horse? Wow, how worthless! I'll spend more of my fight controlling my mount instead of fighting with it! That and it's lower strength means it will always be encumbered when it's being ridden. How can you "Trick out" a horse at 3rd level and why didn't they just prevent the "Tricked out" horses"?
TheMagister 06-27-07, 11:38 PM	You can still purchase a light horse that has been trained with the combat riding package. "trick out" was rearranging feats, mostly. A light warhorse with improved grapple was a terror.
Adolfo_Mondschein 06-27-07, 11:48 PM	Well, if it's trained for combat riding... then isn't it just a Light Warhorse anyway? I mean, how much does that cost and what does it get? But anyway, so your telling me, that just because some of the older members abused their credits, little newbie me has to be punished? You can't honestly put a limit on what you can "Trick out" on an animal at level 3? I mean, I don't have a grappling horse, I have a normal, run of the mill horse. Without it, casters are just going to beat me into the ground. Even if I got a light horse trained for war, it still can't carry me and I'll still be slow, the casters will be laughing at me and blasting me with spells from a safe distance...
TheMagister 06-27-07, 11:54 PM	Why do you think it couldn't carry you? If you weigh more than 300 lbs, drop some weight!
Adolfo_Mondschein 06-28-07, 12:01 AM	A light load for a light horse is up to 150 pounds, my character weighs more than 150 pounds. That and his gear makes the mount encumbered, his speed drops to a wimpy 40ft. An elf wizard or cleric with the magic domain with expeditious retreat (from scroll or wand) is just going to cast and get 60ft speed, maybe more depending on the build. Now he simply keeps his distance, blasting away with his wand of magic missile until I'm dead. At least with a light warhorse I can get it's speed up to 60ft to combat the caster, but with a normal light horse, no.
TheMagister 06-28-07, 12:05 AM	Oh, there are ways. First of all, a 40' speed on a mount translates to 80' on a double move, and you (the rider) can still attack at the end of the double move. Or you could shoot at him with a bow at the midpoint of the horse's move. Second of all, there is a crawling tattoo of skate for 100 gp that'll add 15' to your horse's movement which'll help. It's not an insurmountable obstacle.
Zevox 06-28-07, 12:17 AM	This was something I noticed a little while back and it occurs to me a question. Once you reach the minimum threshhold - does any amount of RES-PTS trigger another check? For instance, this week, CEF invested 500 RES-PTS into research for Advanced Storage (500/500) and failed the 25% breakthrough chance. Can CEF put in 250 next week and have a 37.5% chance? What about 1 more point? Or - does it need to be a full 500 more (at least) before the next check happens? Doesn't need to be a full 500 more, no (we've had quite a number of researchers go for less for one reason or another). I don't know if 1 point ought to be allowed, but with the way the rules are written at present, it would be. Well, if it's trained for combat riding... then isn't it just a Light Warhorse anyway? I mean, how much does that cost and what does it get? The amount Sauro suggested with the new rules was 50 gp for the combat riding package to be pre-trained to a non-war horse. The difference is that a light horse is weaker in strength and constitution than the warhorse, and can't attack while being ridden. But anyway, so your telling me, that just because some of the older members abused their credits, little newbie me has to be punished? Oh no, not at all. The fact that customizing purchased allies never cost credits and the ones abusing it were rarely the older members aside, if it were just the idiotic feat combinations that were an issue, it would just be those that were eliminated. The fact of the matter is, a Light Warhorse on its own can defeat most ECL 3 gladiators - it has 3 attacks per round (only a two-weapon fighting monk can get that at that level as PCs go, and with significant penalties to all attacks there), decent attack bonuses on two of them, good damage, hp equal to the average fighter of that level, mediocre but easily boosted AC (by either armor or the mounted combat feat), 60' speed, and scent. In melee, its not uncommon for a light warhorse to best an ECL 3 foe even on its own. Add its master to the mix, and you can see where that is going. That and his gear makes the mount encumbered, his speed drops to a wimpy 40ft. An elf wizard or cleric with the magic domain with expeditious retreat (from scroll or wand) is just going to cast and get 60ft speed, maybe more depending on the build. Now he simply keeps his distance, blasting away with his wand of magic missile until I'm dead. 60' speed won't be enough for him to avoid you for more than a round or two. He can't double move and still attack, which puts your speeds at effectively 80'/round vs 60'/round. Not difficult at all to catch him in that situation. Zevox
Yitzi 06-28-07, 04:06 AM	Only if he insists on attacking every round. If he alternates double moves with attacks, then he can keep pace even if you double move all the time. However, you do still have a few options: -Use ranged attacks -take total cover from him, and he'll have to move to get a good shot...if you take the right spot, you may be able to force him to get in range. -If you have a decent hide skill, hide from him, taking attacks as needed to beat the 10 round penalty, and wait for his expeditious retreat to run out. -In an open map (e.g. plains), you can sometimes have your horse run up to him (run on a light horse gives 200' even with medium encumbrance, he needs to be within 100'+10'/level to shoot the missile, and then he can move 60', so this with work until level 5, at which point you can get the light warhorse), and then you can attack. And unless he uses a 5' (which means he's not taking advantage of his superior speed) or a withdraw (which means he can't attack, and ou may be able to do the same thing next round anyway) to get away, he'll provoke an AoO.
Salrantol 06-28-07, 06:17 AM	But anyway, so your telling me, that just because some of the older members abused their credits, little newbie me has to be punished?Back when I first started in CoCo, there was a 3rd-level commoner that was decimating the ranks in the ECL 3 league just because he had a light warhorse. That's the situation these limitations are designed to resolve. I don't like it either, but I can understand it.
TelinArtho 06-28-07, 09:40 AM	Well, if it's trained for combat riding... then isn't it just a Light Warhorse anyway? I mean, how much does that cost and what does it get? But anyway, so your telling me, that just because some of the older members abused their credits, little newbie me has to be punished? You can't honestly put a limit on what you can "Trick out" on an animal at level 3? I mean, I don't have a grappling horse, I have a normal, run of the mill horse. Without it, casters are just going to beat me into the ground. Even if I got a light horse trained for war, it still can't carry me and I'll still be slow, the casters will be laughing at me and blasting me with spells from a safe distance... You've been misinformed. The reason why the light warhorse was taken out of the ECL3 was because the relative power of the light warhorse is very similar to the gladiator himself. Allies, until recently, have been allowed to be very powerful. The recent move is to take away some of that power, without taking away the issue that the ally resolves. For the horse - the main benefit was the speed boost. That speed boost is still attainable with a light horse - harder - but attainable. Even a horse moving at 40 though is going to be enough in many cases though. This change was debated at length in the council thread and everyone was welcome to make posts about it. It was announced in the announcements last week that it would be going into effect this week. It was announced this week that it is now in effect.
TelinArtho 06-28-07, 02:44 PM	@Yitzi - about your question about who is a "good" questlord - I would suggest finding one who fits your style. The simplest way to do that would be to read a few of the quests that go on from day to day and see who's style you like. Barring that - just pick one. Quests only last for 3 weeks - so even if the two of you don't mesh well - its only temporary anyway. As a word of warning - I have about a 50% success rate in my quests. Until the player-base adapts to my style of questlording - I would not expect that percentage to change much.
lonewolf 06-28-07, 03:10 PM	Strange question: Is there any way that a character in a nonfrozen league can do a frozen quest? I need Kitty to quest for his Leadership cohort, but I dont want him to gain xp to be able to fight in the ECL9 league for a while.
Macbrea 06-28-07, 03:15 PM	Ahm... the next frozen league is ECL 15 and you would gain exp doing an ECL 15 quest at ECL 9. :P
TelinArtho 06-28-07, 03:20 PM	Strange question: Is there any way that a character in a nonfrozen league can do a frozen quest? I need Kitty to quest for his Leadership cohort, but I dont want him to gain xp to be able to fight in the ECL9 league for a while. Frozen Quests work just like regular Quests with the difference that the questing characters neither gain XP or Gold, nor do they lose any items (the Questlord just writes 'none' under 'Items Used'). The reason for these quests is that some cannot play their character because their character is frozen or too high in level. Frozen Quests are purely roleplaying and have absolutely no impact in any way on the CoCo. They won't even appear on the Roster. The Questlord gains 2° per week normally and is not penalized if the quest takes longer (it still has to be done on week 6). I actually ran a frozen quest for a couple of non-frozen characters because the quest was above their level. However, note that the only purpose you can have for a frozen quest is role-play - so if you want to gain a cohort - you need to do a regular quest.
Yitzi 06-28-07, 03:25 PM	@Yitzi - about your question about who is a "good" questlord - I would suggest finding one who fits your style. The simplest way to do that would be to read a few of the quests that go on from day to day and see who's style you like. Barring that - just pick one. Quests only last for 3 weeks - so even if the two of you don't mesh well - its only temporary anyway. As a word of warning - I have about a 50% success rate in my quests. Until the player-base adapts to my style of questlording - I would not expect that percentage to change much. Why, what about your questlording style makes it difficult?
Macbrea 06-28-07, 03:32 PM	Each questlord runs under their own style. As a result, some run much harder quests then others. Telin doesn't pull alot of punches during his quests as a result occasionally, the ogre wins. :P
TelinArtho 06-28-07, 03:33 PM	I frankly don't know :) In all seriousness, there's many reasons why my questors fail - and not the least of which is simply bad luck. I have had so many quest-ending criticals that at one point they were ~75% of my failed quests (5 or 6 out of 7 or 8). And that is where I get my reputation from. A few of the failed quests I had were, in my opinion, because of poor character design. In such cases, I usually explained why I felt that way after the quest. As a for instance, TheMagister's first quest with me was with a ranger character. He was a decent character from the looks of things - but he had a glass jaw - a terribly low AC. Now - the reason why he lost that fight was more because of the rolls (he simply couldn't hit the opponent who also had a bad AC - 14 if I remember correctly) - but the monster in question had no problem hitting his. Anyway - like I said - ask around for a questlord. I'm sure there's someone who will pick it up. I could even do so - but I know this mission is for WAR and TM hates having guild actions go through me... :P
TelinArtho 06-28-07, 03:34 PM	Each questlord runs under their own style. As a result, some run much harder quests then others. Telin doesn't pull alot of punches during his quests as a result occasionally, the ogre wins. :P I think the next non-denthian quest I run that is of the requisite level will have my old encounter in it that has killed 2 people so far... and that was before I gave the creatures equipment... My good old faithful Troll and 2 Ogres...
Macbrea 06-28-07, 03:37 PM	Heh.. was the reason I mentioned that statement. Those ogres crit alot. Not much can be said. They hit and their opponent hits the ground. But, in all seriousness. It is very easy for monsters to win a fight. It happens, and when your one character against a monster of your ECL. It is very easy to loose.
Zevox 06-28-07, 03:37 PM	With Telin as your questlord, it might help to be paranoid. Expect to be ambushed, often in the worst possible location. Don't expect to have any buff time, either. Zevox
TelinArtho 06-28-07, 03:40 PM	With Telin as your questlord, it might help to be paranoid. Expect to be ambushed, often in the worst possible location. Don't expect to have any buff time, either. Zevox Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean no one is out to get you... I allow for buff time... its that time right at the beginning while the dragon is feasting on your bones...
MindWandererB 06-28-07, 03:47 PM	That's something to consider in your analysis, then. CoCo characters are very buff-happy, in general. If Telin has a lower-than-average amount of buff time that he allows in quests, that could easily account for much of the high kill rate.
Macbrea 06-28-07, 03:52 PM	That could be true. But, sometime the monsters just win. At the moment in the upper leagues my monster record for running is 1 win and 5 losses. The monster were balanced to run 4 characters of 25pt buy vs 1 monster.
templer10 06-28-07, 03:59 PM	That's something to consider in your analysis, then. CoCo characters are very buff-happy, in general. If Telin has a lower-than-average amount of buff time that he allows in quests, that could easily account for much of the high kill rate. caster types (not psions) has a wonderfull buff up/escape to heal spell - Obscuring mist - it's effective for quite a lot of levels and althrough there are fairly simple ways to deal with it - it's usually takes a lot more spell levels to get rid of it (and not everyone pack those spells) then to just bear it. P.s there is always the mist then invisible go find me trick. btw - Smokestick is supposed to do the same - not sure on how long it lasts.
TelinArtho 06-28-07, 04:02 PM	That's something to consider in your analysis, then. CoCo characters are very buff-happy, in general. If Telin has a lower-than-average amount of buff time that he allows in quests, that could easily account for much of the high kill rate. Oh I have no doubt that it is part of the problem. Alluding back to the statement my brother made about the upcoming result of the Denthian quest (where he predicts everyone will die...), that is one of the main reasons he says it. That said - going back to my "famous" trio - it is not all about buffing: Crovax - Drow Cleric 5 Round 1 - Casts Doom on the troll and the troll fails the save. Troll double moves to threaten, but cannot attack. Ogre 1 charges but misses. Ogre 2 moves but cannot even get to threaten. Round 2 - Cast Shatter on Ogre 1's club. Troll full attacks and misses. Ogre 1 goes searching for a new club (awful nice of me to not have him grapple, I must say...). Ogre 2 moves and now threatens. Round 3 - Cast Cause Fear on the troll (makes the save). Troll full attacks and misses. Ogre 1 is still searching. Ogre 2 attacks and misses. Round 4 - Fires a poisoned (Drow poison) crossbow bolt, suffering an AoO from the troll (which misses) - but the bolt misses. The troll full attacks and misses. Ogre 1 is coming back but still not threatening. Ogre 2 attacks and misses. Round 5 - Cast Rage (Madness domain version). Troll full attacks and misses. Ogre 1 is now threatening with an improvised club. Ogre 2 attacks and misses. Round 6 - Draw a potion of Enlarge person, and drinks it (draws AoO from troll - hits but does not confirm for 8 damage). Troll full attacks - hits once more for 8 damage. Ogre 1 and 2 attack and miss. Round 7 - Attack with rapier on Ogre 1 - hit for 11 damage, step away and draw smokestick. Troll full attacks and misses. Ogre 1 and 2 still miss. Round 8 - Attack with rapier on Ogre 1 - hit for 13 damage. Troll and Ogres all miss. Round 9 - Attack with rapier on Ogre 1 - hit for 7 damage - ogre falls. Troll full attacks and hits once for 12 damage. Ogre 2 attacks and confirms a crit for 19 damage. 9 rounds and the ECL7 character was able to take out an Ogre... I need to do some searching to find my other encounter with them...
TelinArtho 06-28-07, 04:09 PM	Ok - here it is: Annixx - level 7 Cleric Surprise - he rolls a 1 on his listen (Listen 7-minus distance (50ft) vs MS 4,15,8) and so the opponents surprise him. The ogres throw javelins but miss. Round 1- Troll and ogres win initiative - they move and attack. Troll and Ogre 1 miss. Ogre 2 hits for 18. Annixx tries to cast Fly defensively - fails the concentration check (+11 concentration vs DC15+3). Round 2 - Troll full attacks and hits with claw and bite for 15 total. Ogre 1 misses. Ogre 2 hits for 21. Annixx dies. EDIT - Note - on that Listen roll - if he rolls a 3 or better - he is not surprised by the troll and the fight is much much different... EDIT again - Actually - reading through it again - he was actually level 6 on a EL7 quest... (something he requested...)
MitzaVolchenko 06-28-07, 04:46 PM	Telin is a rough draw for pitlords...I don't mesh well with him, but that is no knock against him. I might like to try his Troll and 2 Ogres some time, though...seems like it might be fun :P I tend to use things from well outside the standard box...for instance I love tossing in a trap...it counts as an encounter and has the potential to be nothing or to be deadly. I also favor adding some rp into them causing a character to have to decide what they want to do with their time and giving branches that may lead to different style encounters...probably, I give too much latitude and variability as I have yet to outright kill a quester. Hmm, may swap one of my campaign encounters for the beastie that nearly killed Karen...talk about something you don't see everyday...to heck with dragons, turn your party into plant food :P Iced was my favorite QL, but he wandered off on us.
Yitzi 06-28-07, 04:53 PM	Anyway - like I said - ask around for a questlord. I'm sure there's someone who will pick it up. I could even do so - but I know this mission is for WAR and TM hates having guild actions go through me... :P Currently, it's down to you and TM, so I'll let TM decide whether he wants to do it or let you do it.
lonewolf 06-28-07, 04:55 PM	Hmm, may swap one of my campaign encounters for the beastie that nearly killed Karen...talk about something you don't see everyday...to heck with dragons, turn your party into plant food :P Good old times... :rolleyes:
TelinArtho 06-28-07, 05:05 PM	Currently, it's down to you and TM, so I'll let TM decide whether he wants to do it or let you do it. I was mostly joking anyway - but I do try to encourage people to use all the questlords around. I have had positive experiences with just about all of my questlords ('Rith, Vath, Myrridin, King Uther, waywreth (of course - that's the reason Bulgar is here after alll) and more). I am trying out two more in the next two weeks (Salrantol and Malither76) and will certainly try anyone out who is willing to take up the hat. On to more important (to me) things...
TheMagister 06-28-07, 05:14 PM	I was pokin' through my photobucket account and ran across this again, and it still made me laugh. Do you guys remember this? http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g48/larissajeanne02/bushdnd.jpg
TelinArtho 06-28-07, 05:16 PM	Okay - so now Bulgar has reached level 6 and I have a decision to make - his 6th level feat... and 4800gp... Now, the upcoming dragon is not likely to be a huge problem (of course - that's not always true...), but at least it won't be large size. That said - the breath weapon will be nasty - so that's 100gp right there (and maybe 350gp if I spring for the CL7 resist energy...) The latter would cost a credit though - so I think I might not bother with it... Other than that though - I guess I need some ideas on equipment. Feats have already been narrowed down to one of the following most likely: Quickdraw Exotic Weapon Prof: Bola (as the dragons get bigger - their breath weapons are more able to stay out of close range...) Lightning Reflexes Spell penetration (this one might not be a big deal now though - he doesn't often memorize offensive spells and dragons don't get SR yet... yet) - maybe later though. Other possibilities for feats: Dodge (to eventually pick up mobility - don't like to suffer AoO for movement, but if I am going to anyway - might as well be at a higher AC), Combat Reflexes - useful for the dragons that I trip and then they try to stand AND fly away... Still need to look at things to spend money on...
TheMagister 06-28-07, 05:21 PM	Currently, it's down to you and TM, so I'll let TM decide whether he wants to do it or let you do it. It'd look pretty bad if the Guildmaster of WAR started running his own guild quests. :) I'm gonna have to recuse myself, Yitzi. If you choose Telin, then welcome to the jungle. TM
TheMagister 06-28-07, 05:23 PM	Okay - so now Bulgar has reached level 6 and I have a decision to make - his 6th level feat... and 4800gp... Now, the upcoming dragon is not likely to be a huge problem (of course - that's not always true...), but at least it won't be large size. That said - the breath weapon will be nasty - so that's 100gp right there (and maybe 350gp if I spring for the CL7 resist energy...) The latter would cost a credit though - so I think I might not bother with it... Other than that though - I guess I need some ideas on equipment. Feats have already been narrowed down to one of the following most likely: Quickdraw Exotic Weapon Prof: Bola (as the dragons get bigger - their breath weapons are more able to stay out of close range...) Lightning Reflexes Spell penetration (this one might not be a big deal now though - he doesn't often memorize offensive spells and dragons don't get SR yet... yet) - maybe later though. Other possibilities for feats: Dodge (to eventually pick up mobility - don't like to suffer AoO for movement, but if I am going to anyway - might as well be at a higher AC), Combat Reflexes - useful for the dragons that I trip and then they try to stand AND fly away... Still need to look at things to spend money on... I'm a quickdraw fan. Add rapid shot to bulgar's feat list later on and you've got multiple trip attempts a round, not to mention the subdual damage.
TelinArtho 06-28-07, 05:25 PM	It'd look pretty bad if the Guildmaster of WAR started running his own guild quests. :) I'm gonna have to recuse myself, Yitzi. If you choose Telin, then welcome to the jungle. TM I don't think anyone would accuse another of impropriety in the guild quests TM. In fact, I run a lot of the quests for CEF and the ones I am in are often run by those in CEF ('Rith for instance). There's actually benefit to it as well - since as Guildmaster you can oversee the development of a storyline that you want to introduce/delve into more carefully.
Yitzi 06-28-07, 05:33 PM	It'd look pretty bad if the Guildmaster of WAR started running his own guild quests. :) I'm gonna have to recuse myself, Yitzi. If you choose Telin, then welcome to the jungle. TM Telin it is, then. Also, another few related questions: 1. A druid can handle their animal companion as a free action. Since it doesn't say they can only do this 1/round, does that mean they can simply keep trying until they succeed (so they can effectively take 20)? 2. Is there some way, without pushing an animal, to make it use aid another to boost your attacks? 3. How much does it cost to teach an animal a combat package as an NPC service? 4. If an animal is naturally a fighter (e.g. a wolf), does it need to be taught the fighting package, or can I assume it will fight (and cooperate with me) even without it?
TheMagister 06-28-07, 05:41 PM	I don't think anyone would accuse another of impropriety in the guild quests TM. In fact, I run a lot of the quests for CEF and the ones I am in are often run by those in CEF ('Rith for instance). There's actually benefit to it as well - since as Guildmaster you can oversee the development of a storyline that you want to introduce/delve into more carefully. Well, if Telin trusts me, that's all I need. I'll take it! I'm excited! It's been a long time since I've been able to run a quest (home computer's been sick). WHEE! Yitzi, I'll PM pitlords with the news. When the time is right.
Adolfo_Mondschein 06-28-07, 06:04 PM	You've been misinformed. The reason why the light warhorse was taken out of the ECL3 was because the relative power of the light warhorse is very similar to the gladiator himself. Allies, until recently, have been allowed to be very powerful. The recent move is to take away some of that power, without taking away the issue that the ally resolves. For the horse - the main benefit was the speed boost. That speed boost is still attainable with a light horse - harder - but attainable. Even a horse moving at 40 though is going to be enough in many cases though. This change was debated at length in the council thread and everyone was welcome to make posts about it. It was announced in the announcements last week that it would be going into effect this week. It was announced this week that it is now in effect. Ah! Ok, you discussed it a while back ago, around a few days or so before I started playing CoCo. Well yeah, I wouldn't have known it was coming then really. As long as it didn't come out of the blue then I can live with it. What would my Num-nums be like if I downgraded him to light horse that's trained for combat? Would it simply be a light horse with the "trained for combat" package under handle animal? Also, what do I do about the 75 gold difference? Would I just plug that back into my gold after this fight and wait till my fight cycle is up or would I actually be able to purchase something worth that much after my current fight?
TheMagister 06-28-07, 06:33 PM	Plug it back into your gold total and spend it after this current 3FC resolves. Wait until your fight this week is totally finished, and then do your necessary edits (editing your sheet before the fight is completely posted results in an auto-loss). Num-nums would be a carbon-copy light horse with the "Combat Riding" package. So he's easy to control but can't fight.
MindWandererB 06-28-07, 07:01 PM	It'd look pretty bad if the Guildmaster of WAR started running his own guild quests. :) I'm gonna have to recuse myself, Yitzi. If you choose Telin, then welcome to the jungle. TM I try to avoid doing TLT's, but it can be hard to find questlords at times. BTW, there's supposed to be a list of available questlords on post#3 of the Characters thread, but I don't think that list every changes. Certainly, no one ever tells me they want to be on or off that list. It would be nice if people did....
Yitzi 06-28-07, 07:20 PM	Also, another few related questions: 1. A druid can handle their animal companion as a free action. Since it doesn't say they can only do this 1/round, does that mean they can simply keep trying until they succeed (so they can effectively take 20)? 2. Is there some way, without pushing an animal, to make it use aid another to boost your attacks? 3. How much does it cost to teach an animal a combat package as an NPC service? 4. If an animal is naturally a fighter (e.g. a wolf), does it need to be taught the fighting package, or can I assume it will fight (and cooperate with me) even without it? bump.
MindWandererB 06-28-07, 07:33 PM	Also, another few related questions: 1. A druid can handle their animal companion as a free action. Since it doesn't say they can only do this 1/round, does that mean they can simply keep trying until they succeed (so they can effectively take 20)? 2. Is there some way, without pushing an animal, to make it use aid another to boost your attacks? 3. How much does it cost to teach an animal a combat package as an NPC service? 4. If an animal is naturally a fighter (e.g. a wolf), does it need to be taught the fighting package, or can I assume it will fight (and cooperate with me) even without it?1. Huh... I don't technically see any reason why not. Silly, though--we should probably houserule that. 2. You could train it to do so, with permission from an Elder or myself. Teaching it "aid another" in general is probably not going to fly, but for the specific application of assisting your attacks, it should work. 3. 50 gp per trick. See here. 4. It will defend itself only (as wolves in the wild usually do--unless it is rabid, starving, or defending itself or its pups, a wolf will not attack a human). To do anything else requires training. -=-=-=-=-=-=- In other news, I'm getting a new animal ally for Aerryl, an elite rhinoceros. If anyone wants to miniquest that, let me know. Otherwise I'll dip into ye olde pool of randomness.
templer10 06-28-07, 07:40 PM	Speaking of Elite handle Animal allies- if i want to change exsisting one to Elite - it cost me 5 credits for the elite and 5 credits for the change?
Yitzi 06-28-07, 08:10 PM	1. Huh... I don't technically see any reason why not. Silly, though--we should probably houserule that. Depends whether you think a druid should be forced to put several points in HA to use their animal companion at better than 75% chance of it doing as asked. 2. You could train it to do so, with permission from an Elder or myself. Teaching it "aid another" in general is probably not going to fly, but for the specific application of assisting your attacks, it should work. That's what I was thinking of. So does it need to be taught it as a seperate trick, or is it part of the combat package? And how do I get that permission? 3. 50 gp per trick. See here. Does this mean that my animal companion will be pretty much out of use for 3 weeks while it learns the fighting package? 4. It will defend itself only (as wolves in the wild usually do--unless it is rabid, starving, or defending itself or its pups, a wolf will not attack a human). To do anything else requires training. So animal companions are not as easily replacable as first seems, since you also have to train them.
templer10 06-28-07, 08:16 PM	Does this mean that my animal companion will be pretty much out of use for 3 weeks while it learns the fighting package? So animal companions are not as easily replacable as first seems, since you also have to train them. animal companion come trained when you get them at first level - not sure what happen if you replace them - Note that the bonus tricks are learned without time invesment on level ups.
MindWandererB 06-28-07, 08:20 PM	Speaking of Elite handle Animal allies- if i want to change exsisting one to Elite - it cost me 5 credits for the elite and 5 credits for the change?Depends. The change would have to go to the Training Hall rather than the Black Market, and the credit cost would be based on how much use you've gotten out of it so far.Depends whether you think a druid should be forced to put several points in HA to use their animal companion at better than 75% chance of it doing as asked.I'm thinking that if they wanted it to be automatic, they'd have said so. That's what I was thinking of. So does it need to be taught it as a seperate trick, or is it part of the combat package? And how do I get that permission?It would be its own trick. Black market would probably be the best place to get permission. Does this mean that my animal companion will be pretty much out of use for 3 weeks while it learns the fighting package?Yep. So animal companions are not as easily replacable as first seems, since you also have to train them.Exactly. They don't necessarily have to be fully trained--and you do get any bonus tricks instantly--but patience pays off.
Yitzi 06-28-07, 08:59 PM	Depends. The change would have to go to the Training Hall rather than the Black Market, and the credit cost would be based on how much use you've gotten out of it so far.I'm thinking that if they wanted it to be automatic, they'd have said so. It would be its own trick. Black market would probably be the best place to get permission. Yep. Exactly. They don't necessarily have to be fully trained--and you do get any bonus tricks instantly--but patience pays off. 3 more things. 1. Would a trick to use aid another to help my attacks cost credits? 2. Can I begin training mid-cycle? 3. If I don't teach my animal companion the "heel" trick, will it still follow me unless there is a reason not to?
MindWandererB 06-28-07, 09:05 PM	3 more things. 1. Would a trick to use aid another to help my attacks cost credits? 2. Can I begin training mid-cycle? 3. If I don't teach my animal companion the "heel" trick, will it still follow me unless there is a reason not to? 1. No. 2. As a free activity, yes. As a full activity, no. 3. That hasn't been played consistently.
templer10 06-28-07, 09:16 PM	3 more things. 1. Would a trick to use aid another to help my attacks cost credits? 2. Can I begin training mid-cycle? 3. If I don't teach my animal companion the "heel" trick, will it still follow me unless there is a reason not to? your "best" first trick is probably Defend since in order to defend you it will need to follow you
Yitzi 06-29-07, 12:24 AM	2. As a free activity, yes. As a full activity, no. What about as an NPC service?
TheMagister 06-29-07, 12:26 AM	If you're buyin' 'em off the sales floor, you can get 'em fully trained immediately in between 3FCs. If you're payin' someone to train an existing ally for you, I'd imagine that you pays ya money and waits ya time. TM
Yitzi 06-29-07, 01:11 AM	What if you're not buying them, but rather getting them from a class feature, and you want someone else to do the training as soon as you get them? Can I begin having the NPC do the training while I am still mid-cycle? Actual case: Daren Legrad is levelling up after fight 1 of the cycle, and taking his first level of druid. He gets an animal companion, but I do not want to spend skill points on HA, I prefer instead to have an NPC do it. Can I have the NPC do it during fights 2 and 3 (I plan to train 2 tricks, not counting the bonus 1), or is this one of those cash expenditures that I can only do between cycles?
TheMagister 06-29-07, 01:15 AM	Unless he's super-time-trainer, I don't think that he can. I'm not sure if we handle Handle Animal differently in the CoCo than in the PHB, but the PHB states that it takes a week of work to teach an animal a single trick. Since your three fights of your 3FC happen in a single day within hours of each other, I don't see how a trainer could teach an animal a trick in between each fight. How do you train an animal as a free action, anyways? Doesn't make much sense.
MindWandererB 06-29-07, 02:15 AM	Unless he's super-time-trainer, I don't think that he can. I'm not sure if we handle Handle Animal differently in the CoCo than in the PHB, but the PHB states that it takes a week of work to teach an animal a single trick. Since your three fights of your 3FC happen in a single day within hours of each other, I don't see how a trainer could teach an animal a trick in between each fight. How do you train an animal as a free action, anyways? Doesn't make much sense. Remember, although each fight takes place on the same day for the purposes of resting, each free activity is a week's worth of time. (Cat's vision was that each week contained two "invisible" fights that just happened to use the same resources as the other fights in the 3FC.) So if you paid a trainer, you could get one trick per week of real time.
Hirumajoe 06-29-07, 08:12 AM	I'm thinking a bit farther ahead for Valen Sky, and I'm wondering if a Ring of Enlarge Person (I figure 15 credits for custom item) which I'm guessing would cost 2,000 (Continuous) x 2 (1 minute duration) x 1 (Cl 1) x 1 (1st level) = 4,000 gp would be worth it. To turn it off he could always just take the ring off. Also, would such an item likely be approved in the Black Market? As opposed to using an Expanded Knowledge Feat at 12 to pick up expansion. It seems by the time ECL 12 rolls a round, 4,000 gp is worth much less than a feat like Speed of Thought (although for that I'd need to drop 1 point into wisdom).
templer10 06-29-07, 08:48 AM	i need to be reminded - there was an argument about how to sunder a held longbow - do het holder of the longobw gets the +4 from 2 handed weapon and gets to use DEX for the opposed attack roll?
Macbrea 06-29-07, 08:48 AM	Well as a comparison: Permanency (CL 9) = 50 x 9 = 450gp Enlarge Person (CL 9) = 10 x 9 = 90gp 500xp = 5 x 500 = 2500 gp Total cost for Permanent Enlarge Person (CL 9) = 3,040gp. So, your pricing may not be horridly outrageous.
templer10 06-29-07, 08:50 AM	Well as a comparison: Permanency (CL 9) = 50 x 9 = 450gp Enlarge Person (CL 9) = 10 x 9 = 90gp 500xp = 5 x 500 = 2500 gp Total cost for Permanent Enlarge Person (CL 9) = 3,040gp. So, your pricing may not be horridly outrageous. Permenency can be dispelled...
templer10 06-29-07, 09:47 AM	Another question - if you use psioninc shot on energy push and the target makes the save - do the dmg from the psioninc shot gets cut in half also? it's dmg additional to the power dmg so my instinct say NO but iam not sure.
TelinArtho 06-29-07, 09:50 AM	I'm thinking a bit farther ahead for Valen Sky, and I'm wondering if a Ring of Enlarge Person (I figure 15 credits for custom item) which I'm guessing would cost 2,000 (Continuous) x 2 (1 minute duration) x 1 (Cl 1) x 1 (1st level) = 4,000 gp would be worth it. To turn it off he could always just take the ring off. Also, would such an item likely be approved in the Black Market? As opposed to using an Expanded Knowledge Feat at 12 to pick up expansion. It seems by the time ECL 12 rolls a round, 4,000 gp is worth much less than a feat like Speed of Thought (although for that I'd need to drop 1 point into wisdom). That price would not be approved. Continuous enlarge person would probably need to be restricted to the Permanency spell. If it isn't - a ring of continuous Enlarge Person would be expensive. It provides a +2 size bonus to strength (since its not an enhancement bonus, that would be probably double - so 8000gp), and a +1 size increase (no equivalent item. Increases damage dice, grapple and special maneuvers, negligible defensive decrease - I would probably start at 20k with this). The problem though is there's nothing in terms of items that provides a size increase. Without that, and without a corresponding entry in the Magic Item creation chart - it will probably need to be denied on the same grounds as TM's boots of stability (or whatever they were called). A 3/day ring of Enlarge Person is not out of the question though, and certainly, permanency is not too expensive either.
TelinArtho 06-29-07, 10:01 AM	Okay - so now Bulgar has reached level 6 and I have a decision to make - his 6th level feat... and 4800gp... Now, the upcoming dragon is not likely to be a huge problem (of course - that's not always true...), but at least it won't be large size. That said - the breath weapon will be nasty - so that's 100gp right there (and maybe 350gp if I spring for the CL7 resist energy...) The latter would cost a credit though - so I think I might not bother with it... Other than that though - I guess I need some ideas on equipment. Feats have already been narrowed down to one of the following most likely: Quickdraw Exotic Weapon Prof: Bola (as the dragons get bigger - their breath weapons are more able to stay out of close range...) Lightning Reflexes Spell penetration (this one might not be a big deal now though - he doesn't often memorize offensive spells and dragons don't get SR yet... yet) - maybe later though. Other possibilities for feats: Dodge (to eventually pick up mobility - don't like to suffer AoO for movement, but if I am going to anyway - might as well be at a higher AC), Combat Reflexes - useful for the dragons that I trip and then they try to stand AND fly away... Still need to look at things to spend money on... Actually - in thinking this through some more, I think I've decided on Combat Reflexes of all things... it is really annoying to get the dragon tripped, only to have it stand (drawing my AoO) and fly away... Or in the case of being enlarged - move through my threatened area and base me... With his +4 Dex modifier, that should help immensely.
Hirumajoe 06-29-07, 10:38 AM	That price would not be approved. Continuous enlarge person would probably need to be restricted to the Permanency spell. If it isn't - a ring of continuous Enlarge Person would be expensive. It provides a +2 size bonus to strength (since its not an enhancement bonus, that would be probably double - so 8000gp), and a +1 size increase (no equivalent item. Increases damage dice, grapple and special maneuvers, negligible defensive decrease - I would probably start at 20k with this). The problem though is there's nothing in terms of items that provides a size increase. Without that, and without a corresponding entry in the Magic Item creation chart - it will probably need to be denied on the same grounds as TM's boots of stability (or whatever they were called). A 3/day ring of Enlarge Person is not out of the question though, and certainly, permanency is not too expensive either. Hmm... Good points. What I was mostly hoping to do is eliminate the easy dispel chance on the enlarge person (as opposed to the Metamorphosis which is at ML). I'm more likely to just grab CL 3 potions at 150gp a pop rather than a 3/day magic item at CL 3. Since in potions thats about 40 or 50. Permanency is an interesting option but I fundamentally don't want to be large all the time. In an archery battle, I'm going to prefer to be my normal size. Not to mention the first straight caster is just going to dispel it off me. It would be so much more convient if equipment enlarged with Polymorph and Metamorphosis... Ah well. Edit: Actually, there is one item of size changing. Skin of Proteus. Ok, so its continuous Metamorphosis for 84,000 gp, but you get the idea. As far as pricing, that seems to be 84,000/ 7 (ML) = 12,000 / 4 (Power Level) = 3000 gp?! Heck, thats cheaper than a continuous item with 1 min/level duration. Or perhaps they're using the fact its 1 hour/ level when in object form and applying a 1.5 modifier for not using up a standard slot?
templer10 06-29-07, 10:41 AM	Hmm... Good points. What I was mostly hoping to do is eliminate the easy dispel chance on the enlarge person (as opposed to the Metamorphosis which is at ML). I'm more likely to just grab CL 3 potions at 150gp a pop rather than a 3/day magic item at CL 3. Since in potions thats about 40 or 50. Permanency is an interesting option but I fundamentally don't want to be large all the time. In an archery battle, I'm going to prefer to be my normal size. Not to mention the first straight caster is just going to dispel it off me. It would be so much more convient if equipment enlarged with Polymorph and Metamorphosis... Ah well. Edit: Actually, there is one item of size changing. Skin of Proteus. Ok, so its continuous Metamorphosis for 84,000 gp, but you get the idea. Yea like polymorph isnt broken enough.... p.s. - did you send those tactics for the inter league?
Hirumajoe 06-29-07, 10:45 AM	Yea like polymorph isnt broken enough.... p.s. - did you send those tactics for the inter league? I think someone messed up their pricing on that particular skin... And yes, I sent tactics yesterday.
templer10 06-29-07, 10:52 AM	I think someone messed up their pricing on that particular skin... And yes, I sent tactics yesterday. Then in case you are intrested i did the basic Nuking (ice storm, flame strike, call lightening, giant eagle, flaming sphere, produce flame, Allies) when stuff can get chaotic is if you did the Annoying hide in water thing - in that case all my second level and first levels turn into summons and the flamestrike to a unicorn - hell even with protection from evil eventually it will run out and i got PLENTY of spell levels and 3 unused charges of rod of extend. unicorn and giant eagle work anyway even with the protection from evil. you went with metamorphasis i iamgine with possibly dispelling me? p.s. - a possible of around err 15? combatents. (assuming that even with valens possibly ridicules AC - 20 always hits...) p.s.s - izume with with standrat - charge and bash thing.
TelinArtho 06-29-07, 10:55 AM	Hmm... Good points. What I was mostly hoping to do is eliminate the easy dispel chance on the enlarge person (as opposed to the Metamorphosis which is at ML). I'm more likely to just grab CL 3 potions at 150gp a pop rather than a 3/day magic item at CL 3. Since in potions thats about 40 or 50. Permanency is an interesting option but I fundamentally don't want to be large all the time. In an archery battle, I'm going to prefer to be my normal size. Not to mention the first straight caster is just going to dispel it off me. It would be so much more convient if equipment enlarged with Polymorph and Metamorphosis... Ah well. Edit: Actually, there is one item of size changing. Skin of Proteus. Ok, so its continuous Metamorphosis for 84,000 gp, but you get the idea. As far as pricing, that seems to be 84,000/ 7 (ML) = 12,000 / 4 (Power Level) = 3000 gp?! Heck, thats cheaper than a continuous item with 1 min/level duration. Or perhaps they're using the fact its 1 hour/ level when in object form and applying a 1.5 modifier for not using up a standard slot? Pricing continuous items, especially ones not handled in the SRD, needs to be dealt with very carefully. I recommend people only consider them when there is sufficient precedent. Continuous items that boost stats or combat ability should be priced according to the ability that they improve - not according to the pricing of the spell that would give the effect you desire. Many first level and 2nd level spells give benefits that, when priced into magic items, are significantly cheaper than their counterparts (Bull's Strength - 8000gp vs a Belt of Giant Strength +4 - 16000gp for example). However, in your specific case, if you do not need it all the time - it begs the question of why bothering with a continuous item at all? If a few potions would do the trick - I would go that route - and I would even "plan" on using 2 or less each 3FC (so only buy 2 of them - figuring one fight out of three will not benefit from being enlarged). If you don't want to waste the money on expendables or if you need the room in your cap - a 3/day or 2/day CL3 item of Enlarge Person would be reasonable as well.
Hirumajoe 06-29-07, 11:27 AM	However, in your specific case, if you do not need it all the time - it begs the question of why bothering with a continuous item at all? If a few potions would do the trick - I would go that route - and I would even "plan" on using 2 or less each 3FC (so only buy 2 of them - figuring one fight out of three will not benefit from being enlarged). If you don't want to waste the money on expendables or if you need the room in your cap - a 3/day or 2/day CL3 item of Enlarge Person would be reasonable as well. The reason continuous because the effect can't be dispelled without casting directly on the item (negating it for 1d4 rounds) as far as I understand it. I'd say roughly half (or more) of my effectiveness in a large metamorphosis form is negated if the enlarge person is dispelled or wears off. This leaves such tactics as very dubious against casters, as it is about 90% likely to get dispeled by a ECL 10 caster. Although given that Valen is going to be losing another two ML to take Shadow Dancer 1 & 2, its perhaps a moot point, since the metamorphosis itself is going to be dispelled with something like a 70% success rate against straight casters. However in principle Valen could manifest metamorphosis again after a dispel. But without a continuous Enlarge effect, that entails a move and two standard actions to do so (draw potion, drink potion, manifest metamorphosis). A continuous effect would reduce that to a single standard action. And I'm pretty sure at ECL 14 or whatever, that potion round is going to be fight determining. Also, a continuous item lets me prebuff the effect. If I want to be large 2 out of 3 fights, it saves me on a average 2/3 of an action, since I simply take it off in the one fight I don't want it.
Rauul 06-29-07, 11:29 AM	Hmm... Good points. What I was mostly hoping to do is eliminate the easy dispel chance on the enlarge person (as opposed to the Metamorphosis which is at ML). I'm more likely to just grab CL 3 potions at 150gp a pop rather than a 3/day magic item at CL 3. Since in potions thats about 40 or 50. Permanency is an interesting option but I fundamentally don't want to be large all the time. In an archery battle, I'm going to prefer to be my normal size. Not to mention the first straight caster is just going to dispel it off me. It would be so much more convient if equipment enlarged with Polymorph and Metamorphosis... Ah well. Edit: Actually, there is one item of size changing. Skin of Proteus. Ok, so its continuous Metamorphosis for 84,000 gp, but you get the idea. As far as pricing, that seems to be 84,000/ 7 (ML) = 12,000 / 4 (Power Level) = 3000 gp?! Heck, thats cheaper than a continuous item with 1 min/level duration. Or perhaps they're using the fact its 1 hour/ level when in object form and applying a 1.5 modifier for not using up a standard slot? Personnel i would Suggest Belt Slot (if you don't have anything there) Belt / Physical improvement Spell level 1 × caster level 2 (2 min duration/use) × 1,800 gp = 3600 X0.6 (3 per day) = 2160 gp I would Name it Belt of the Ogre (to match the Gauntlets) but thats just me..
templer10 06-29-07, 11:34 AM	The reason continuous because the effect can't be dispelled without casting directly on the item (negating it for 1d4 rounds) as far as I understand it. I'd say roughly half (or more) of my effectiveness in a large metamorphosis form is negated if the enlarge person is dispelled or wears off. This leaves such tactics as very dubious against casters, as it is about 90% likely to get dispeled by a ECL 10 caster. Although given that Valen is going to be losing another two ML to take Shadow Dancer 1 & 2, its perhaps a moot point, since the metamorphosis itself is going to be dispelled with something like a 70% success rate against straight casters. However in principle Valen could manifest metamorphosis again after a dispel. But without a continuous Enlarge effect, that entails a move and two standard actions to do so (draw potion, drink potion, manifest metamorphosis). A continuous effect would reduce that to a single standard action. And I'm pretty sure at ECL 14 or whatever, that potion round is going to be fight determining. Also, a continuous item lets me prebuff the effect. If I want to be large 2 out of 3 fights, it saves me on a average 2/3 of an action, since I simply take it off in the one fight I don't want it. and those are presicely the reasons why it needs to be expensive - it's the same princple why a sword of true striking wont ever be approved. a command word (or thought) activated item with X/day uses or ev en unlimited uses is much less abusive presicsly becuase it cant be prebuffed, it lasts for much shorter duration (and need to be reactivated then) and can be dispelled much easlier. iam not sure how much unlimited times/day item will cost but most spellcasters wont bother to dispell you just for the enlarge since the Gain VS loss ratio isnt worth it for them.
TelinArtho 06-29-07, 11:38 AM	Unlimited uses per day would probably be equivalent to the continuous item - ie - not an option or prohibitively priced.
Abyssal Stalker 06-29-07, 11:39 AM	Skin of the Duergar (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11001872#post11001872)
TelinArtho 06-29-07, 11:47 AM	Skin of the Duergar (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11001872#post11001872) That actually points something out to me - are the skins considered slotless items? Because if so - the skin of the duergar should be twice the price... EDIT - they don't appear to be priced that way, so I'll retract my statement for now.
Rauul 06-29-07, 11:48 AM	Skin of the Duergar (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11001872#post11001872) ML level 10?
Hirumajoe 06-29-07, 11:50 AM	and those are presicely the reasons why it needs to be expensive - it's the same princple why a sword of true striking wont ever be approved. a command word (or thought) activated item with X/day uses or ev en unlimited uses is much less abusive presicsly becuase it cant be prebuffed, it lasts for much shorter duration (and need to be reactivated then) and can be dispelled much easlier. iam not sure how much unlimited times/day item will cost but most spellcasters wont bother to dispell you just for the enlarge since the Gain VS loss ratio isnt worth it for them. Actually, as far as I know, once the enlarge is dispelled, I'd have to dismiss the current metamorphosis, activate the Enlarge Person item, and then cast Metamorphosis again. Of course, the rules aren't exactly clear on that point (equipment merges into the form, does it merge out if conditions warrent it?). So unlimited uses doesn't do it. In any case I think the point has been argued successfully that such an item should be expensive. Although, dumb question, in regards to that skin of the Duergar, does the individual 10 minute use get dispelled at ML 3 or 10? Since its clearly at the 10th level of effect (i.e. 10 minutes), but the item level seems to be ML 3.
Hirumajoe 06-29-07, 11:53 AM	That actually points something out to me - are the skins considered slotless items? Because if so - the skin of the duergar should be twice the price... Skins are really bizarre, since you can have only one active at a time, but can have up to 3 on you (2 inactive). So they're not exactly slotless, but they don't seem to take up the traditional slots. If you consider the Thicken skin one for example, its +4 Natural Armor for 32,000 gp. Same price as an amulet of natural armor +4 (bonus^2 *2000).
templer10 06-29-07, 11:53 AM	Actually, as far as I know, once the enlarge is dispelled, I'd have to dismiss the current metamorphosis, activate the Enlarge Person item, and then cast Metamorphosis again. Of course, the rules aren't exactly clear on that point (equipment merges into the form, does it merge out if conditions warrent it?). So unlimited uses doesn't do it. In any case I think the point has been argued successfully that such an item should be expensive. Although, dumb question, in regards to that skin of the Duergar, does the individual 10 minute use get dispelled at ML 3 or 10? Since its clearly at the 10th level of effect (i.e. 10 minutes), but the item level seems to be ML 3. it's ML 3 - if you augment expansion with 2 more pps duration goes to 10 minutes/levels - the item description is wrong since it should be 30 minutes per activation.
TelinArtho 06-29-07, 11:54 AM	It is augmented for duration. ML10 without augmentation would actually only 1 minute (since Expansion without augmentation is 1 round/level). Pricing is 3 (ML) x 2 (PL) x 1800gp x ( 3 charges / 5) = 6480gp.
Hirumajoe 06-29-07, 11:54 AM	Nevermind... I should read before posting.
Yitzi 06-29-07, 11:57 AM	Question: If someone has a familiar/animal companion 1 size smaller than them, can they carry it with them?
TelinArtho 06-29-07, 12:00 PM	1 size? This gets into "iffy" territory. Technically you can't share a space with another individual until the size difference is 3. However, obviously, in the case of rider and mount - this isn't really a requirement.
Yitzi 06-29-07, 12:28 PM	Well, I know that wizards usually carry their familiars with them, even if they are faster than the familiar (and most familiars are at most 2 sizes smaller than the wizard), so unless we want to say that over 90% of wizard fights have been misrun, I think the answer is yes.
Hirumajoe 06-29-07, 12:37 PM	Given that all standard familiars are tiny or smaller, the reason they can enter the same space as their owner (and also that of opponents) is the following: Tiny, Diminutive, and Fine Creatures Very small creatures take up less than 1 square of space. This means that more than one such creature can fit into a single square. A Tiny creature typically occupies a space only 2½ feet across, so four can fit into a single square. Twenty-five Diminutive creatures or 100 Fine creatures can fit into a single square. Creatures that take up less than 1 square of space typically have a natural reach of 0 feet, meaning they can’t reach into adjacent squares. They must enter an opponent’s square to attack in melee. This provokes an attack of opportunity from the opponent. You can attack into your own square if you need to, so you can attack such creatures normally. Since they have no natural reach, they do not threaten the squares around them. You can move past them without provoking attacks of opportunity. They also can’t flank an enemy. So a small familiar seems to be a no-go. Although it seems like you should be able to pick up a small familiar in your arms and carry it (otherwise you'd never be able to pickup wounded comrades and such). Shrug.
Yitzi 06-29-07, 12:46 PM	So then why the thing about "3 size category difference"? Also, you can have more than one person in 5', they just can't fight effectively that way. So if the smaller creature isn't fighting...
MindWandererB 06-29-07, 12:46 PM	Another question - if you use psioninc shot on energy push and the target makes the save - do the dmg from the psioninc shot gets cut in half also? it's dmg additional to the power dmg so my instinct say NO but iam not sure.That would be my take, yes. (Of course, I'm guessing you're referring to my fight, so I'm a little biased here.)i need to be reminded - there was an argument about how to sunder a held longbow - do het holder of the longobw gets the +4 from 2 handed weapon and gets to use DEX for the opposed attack roll?From the Courtroom:Q: When attempting to sunder a ranged-only weapon, such as a bow, crossbow, javelin, etc, what do you use for the opposed attack roll needed for the sunder check? A: For any weapon that falls into the ranged-only category, use the PC's BAB + Dex mod + any bonuses to the attack roll provided by the weapon only. Bonuses from other sources, such as halfling's racial bonus to attack with slings, do not apply.So then why the thing about "3 size catgory difference"?That would apply when the smaller creature is Small or larger.
Yitzi 06-29-07, 12:51 PM	Well, I suppose I can still carry him, and drop him to go on his own once the fighting begins.
Vathelokai 06-30-07, 10:22 AM	Acually, a familiar can use the ride skill (usually untrained; and with -5 for being an 'unusual' mount and another -5 for riding bareback) to share your movement. That only requires the familiar to one size smaller. The familiar probably can't quick dismount or get cover, but it can travel. Of course, with an improved familiar, weight could be an issue
Zevox 07-01-07, 05:43 PM	Okay, I got a fun new idea for a custom enchantment for Ceilia's sword I'd like to run by everyone to get opinions. Only a Cleric or Paladin devoted to a Deity can imbue a weapon with this enchantment. The weapon is given the blessing of that God. Whenever it is drawn by a worshiper of that God, it glows with light of a color sacred to or chosen by the Deity (this is otherwise identical to the light given off by 30% of all magic weapons), and the wielder and any of her allies within 50 feet able to see the light receive this blessing in the form of a +1 morale bonus to attack rolls and saving throws against fear effects. In addition, once per day, a wielder devoted to the God who blessed this weapon can speak that God’s name and ask for his or her aid, and the weapon will fortify her body with 1d8+3 temporary hit points which last 3 minutes. Faint enchantment (compulsion) [mind-affecting]; CL 3rd; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Bless, Aid; Price 5,160 gp. Most of that is flavor, but essentially it means that when the weapon is held, it gives off a continuous bless effect, and once per day it can use aid. I figure that Ceilia uses bless often enough, why not just get a permanent version, since she can self-craft most things anyway? The aid effect was just something I threw in for kicks since it made sense with the flavor, really. I calculated the price as: Aid 1/day ((3 cl * 2 sl * 1800)/5 = 2,160) + Continuous Bless ((1 cl * 1 sl *2000) * 1.5 two effects = 3,000) = 5,160 gp. What do you all think? Did I make an error calculating the price? Too powerful? Just right? Perhaps I should up the CL of the aid for more temporary hp from it? Zevox
MindWandererB 07-01-07, 05:53 PM	Well, one consideration is that the item has one caster level, 3rd. So that will be the CL for Bless. I'm also not sure the two uses need the 1.5x multiplier, since one of them is command-word activated.
Zevox 07-01-07, 07:48 PM	Well, one consideration is that the item has one caster level, 3rd. So that will be the CL for Bless. I'm also not sure the two uses need the 1.5x multiplier, since one of them is command-word activated. Hm, so that raises the cost of the bless to 9,000 gp, and the total cost to 11,160 gp. With self-crafting it goes to 5,580, which isn't that bad I guess, but is definitely is more than I was hoping to pay for it. Guess I could always remove the aid effect to get it at CL 1, maybe find something else at 1st level that would go with it thematically instead. Edit: Actually, then the multiplier would apply to the aid effect, which means 6k bless + 3,240 aid = 9,240 gp cost, 4,620 self-crafted. Not as bad. And I don't see why it wouldn't have that multiplier. The table says that for multiple abilities, the lower cost one is multiplied. Doesn't specify that the abilities need to be of the same type. Zevox
MindWandererB 07-01-07, 09:56 PM	Hm, so that raises the cost of the bless to 9,000 gp, and the total cost to 11,160 gp. With self-crafting it goes to 5,580, which isn't that bad I guess, but is definitely is more than I was hoping to pay for it. Guess I could always remove the aid effect to get it at CL 1, maybe find something else at 1st level that would go with it thematically instead. Edit: Actually, then the multiplier would apply to the aid effect, which means 6k bless + 3,240 aid = 9,240 gp cost, 4,620 self-crafted. Not as bad. And I don't see why it wouldn't have that multiplier. The table says that for multiple abilities, the lower cost one is multiplied. Doesn't specify that the abilities need to be of the same type. Zevox Multiple Different Abilities: Abilities such as an attack roll bonus or saving throw bonus and a spell-like function are not similar, and their values are simply added together to determine the cost. For items that do take up a space on a character’s body each additional power not only has no discount but instead has a 50% increase in price.A sword does not take up a slot, but is a held item. So as far as I can tell, there should be neither a penalty nor a discount.
Yitzi 07-01-07, 10:23 PM	"a hand" (which is needed to wield a sword) cannot hold more than 1 item, ergo it is a slot.
Adolfo_Mondschein 07-01-07, 10:29 PM	"a hand" (which is needed to wield a sword) cannot hold more than 1 item, ergo it is a slot. In the real world, yes. In RAW, no. It's not technically a body slot. MAGIC ITEMS ON THE BODY Many magic items need to be donned by a character who wants to employ them or benefit from their abilities. It’s possible for a creature with a humanoid-shaped body to wear as many as twelve magic items at the same time. However, each of those items must be worn on (or over) a particular part of the body. A humanoid-shaped body can be decked out in magic gear consisting of one item from each of the following groups, keyed to which place on the body the item is worn. * One headband, hat, helmet, or phylactery on the head * One pair of eye lenses or goggles on or over the eyes * One amulet, brooch, medallion, necklace, periapt, or scarab around the neck * One vest, vestment, or shirt on the torso * One robe or suit of armor on the body (over a vest, vestment, or shirt) * One belt around the waist (over a robe or suit of armor) * One cloak, cape, or mantle around the shoulders (over a robe or suit of armor) * One pair of bracers or bracelets on the arms or wrists * One glove, pair of gloves, or pair of gauntlets on the hands * One ring on each hand (or two rings on one hand) * One pair of boots or shoes on the feet Of course, a character may carry or possess as many items of the same type as he wishes. However, additional items beyond those listed above have no effect. Some items can be worn or carried without taking up space on a character’s body. The description of an item indicates when an item has this property.
Zevox 07-01-07, 10:54 PM	A sword does not take up a slot, but is a held item. So as far as I can tell, there should be neither a penalty nor a discount. Alrighty then, so 6k bless + 2,160 gp Aid = 8,160 gp total, 4,080 crafted. Thats not bad. About 4k gp for continuous +1 to attacks with that weapon (and to any non-undead allies near me) and 4-11 temp hp once per cycle, and its a great RP implement for her blade. Sounds like a plan. ...so many things I want to use credits for, so few credits to my name. 40 for Nimbus, 15 for this, 10 to get Ceilia the simple Cleric variant, 35 for a rebuild of Featylec... theres just not enough time in the summer I fear... Zevox
MindWandererB 07-02-07, 02:58 PM	Announcement: My 4th of July is going to be a little busy. It's doubtful that I'll be able to get pairings done in a timely matter. So the options are to either 1) postpone pairings/deadline for a day (which would be a good idea if other people are also busy that day), 2) for me to pass the buck to Sauro or Telin to do pairings, or 3) for everyone to be patient as I get to them when I can (which could potentially be almost a day late anyway; I can't promise anything faster).
Macbrea 07-02-07, 03:00 PM	I would say postpone them til thursday. I am sure drinking, fireworks and pairings don't go together. :P
TelinArtho 07-02-07, 03:01 PM	Well - I can answer for my portion - I am not available much that day either. What little time I might have would be after extended periods of drinking in the sun and by a pool/ocean... So, yeah... don't count on me that day. Delaying for one day shouldn't be a problem.
Erithmu 07-02-07, 03:23 PM	Should probably delay them ...
TelinArtho 07-02-07, 04:27 PM	Okay, I got a fun new idea for a custom enchantment for Ceilia's sword I'd like to run by everyone to get opinions. Only a Cleric or Paladin devoted to a Deity can imbue a weapon with this enchantment. The weapon is given the blessing of that God. Whenever it is drawn by a worshiper of that God, it glows with light of a color sacred to or chosen by the Deity (this is otherwise identical to the light given off by 30% of all magic weapons), and the wielder and any of her allies within 50 feet able to see the light receive this blessing in the form of a +1 morale bonus to attack rolls and saving throws against fear effects. In addition, once per day, a wielder devoted to the God who blessed this weapon can speak that God’s name and ask for his or her aid, and the weapon will fortify her body with 1d8+3 temporary hit points which last 3 minutes. Faint enchantment (compulsion) [mind-affecting]; CL 3rd; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Bless, Aid; Price 5,160 gp. Most of that is flavor, but essentially it means that when the weapon is held, it gives off a continuous bless effect, and once per day it can use aid. I figure that Ceilia uses bless often enough, why not just get a permanent version, since she can self-craft most things anyway? The aid effect was just something I threw in for kicks since it made sense with the flavor, really. I calculated the price as: Aid 1/day ((3 cl * 2 sl * 1800)/5 = 2,160) + Continuous Bless ((1 cl * 1 sl *2000) * 1.5 two effects = 3,000) = 5,160 gp. What do you all think? Did I make an error calculating the price? Too powerful? Just right? Perhaps I should up the CL of the aid for more temporary hp from it? Zevox +1 morale bonus to attack and saving throws versus fear to not only the wielder but every ally within 50ft. Continuously? An enhancement attack bonus for one person is priced in at 2000gp for a +1. For a different type AND if affecting unlimited people that can fit within a 50ft radius (which is huge...), is an immense benefit. I'd probably double the price for the non-enhancement bonus in my own campaign. But here - I'm not sure I could get behind an approval of it. If we were talking about Bless 1/day or 3/day (so it still took an action to activate it), that would be one thing. To have it continuous is just another thing that I would say no to - at least with the pricing scheme used.
Zevox 07-03-07, 12:40 AM	+1 morale bonus to attack and saving throws versus fear to not only the wielder but every ally within 50ft. Continuously? An enhancement attack bonus for one person is priced in at 2000gp for a +1. For a different type AND if affecting unlimited people that can fit within a 50ft radius (which is huge...), is an immense benefit. I'd probably double the price for the non-enhancement bonus in my own campaign. But here - I'm not sure I could get behind an approval of it. If we were talking about Bless 1/day or 3/day (so it still took an action to activate it), that would be one thing. To have it continuous is just another thing that I would say no to - at least with the pricing scheme used. Actually, +1 enhancement to attack is priced at 300 gp. Masterwork. The 2k +1 is to attack and damage and allows the weapon to overcome DR/magic (and gain further enhancements in the future). This would be significantly more expensive than either, half of the effect would rarely matter (that being the +1 to saves vs fear), and actually it may never matter since I plan on getting Ceilia the simple Cleric variant before this (swaps Rebuke Undead for a Paladin's Aura of Courage & Smite Good). Note also that I fully intend to abide by what I wrote in the flavor that it only works when the sword is drawn (so it might be better described as use-activated than continuous). Considering the cost it reaches due to the increased caster level, I don't think its overpowered, or even that great of a benefit. Zevox
Yitzi 07-03-07, 01:30 AM	The cost for the bless portion also gets doubled because the spell has duration 1 min/level. So the cost is actually Continuous Bless ((3 cl * 1 sl * 2000 * 2) = 12,000) + Aid 1/day ((3 cl * 2 sl * 1800)/5 * 1.5 two effects= 3,240) = 15,240 gp.
Zevox 07-03-07, 02:02 AM	The cost for the bless portion also gets doubled because the spell has duration 1 min/level. So the cost is actually Continuous Bless ((3 cl * 1 sl * 2000 * 2) = 12,000) + Aid 1/day ((3 cl * 2 sl * 1800)/5 * 1.5 two effects= 3,240) = 15,240 gp. Hm, good point. Though per MWB's statements above, the two affects thing isn't there, but thats still 14,160 gp, 7,080 self-crafted. Ow. Might be worth reconsidering. Zevox
Korone 07-03-07, 01:05 PM	My gnoll haves enough Xp to level up, yet, he just finished the first fight out of the three. Do I level him up now, or do I have to wait untill he has finished the current fight cycle ? Didn't managed to find this in the rules.
Macbrea 07-03-07, 01:06 PM	You level him now. But you cannot buy equipment.
TelinArtho 07-03-07, 01:21 PM	I think there's a few errors with regards to structure upgrades. I was looking at research options and found this: <Trait> Cooperation I-III: Pick one trait, eg Industry. All structures belonging to this Home Trait are able to hold Structure Upgrades of their Synergy Trait aswell but the Upgrades' marketprice and upkeep are increased depending on the level of this development. The levels are I-100%, II-50%, III-0%. Each trait must be researched individually (so if you have Industrial Cooperation III, you're still at level 0 for the other six traits). Research: 500*Level Requires: All lower technology levels Requires: Same technology level in <Trait> Organization of the corresponding trait Which led me to wonder - why you would get this when people have been using the synergy trait of the structure for upgrades all the time... Then of course, I looked at the rules: Structures and Upgrades Like a headquarter, a structure has also Structure Slots (SS) on its own which can be filled with certain upgrades. These Structure Upgrades are there to improve the generation of trait points (eg Production Points) so a Workshop built in a structure generates weekly PRO-PTS. The amount of upgrades that fit into a structure depends on its class. Structure Upgrades must match the Home Trait of the structure, so you can only build a Workshop in a structure with Industry as Home Trait, although certain developments allow you to build upgrades for the Synergy Trait aswell. The Home District of a guild always allows Structure Upgrades in both Home- and Synergy Trait of a structure at no penalty, and the Guildhall can also hold Structure Upgrades as rooms. Structure upgrades follow all rules for Rooms. So - it seems that Structures can only hold upgrades of the primary trait of the structure. I didn't look through every guild, but I noted errors in CEF's structures (1 since I've been here - 3 from Cat's time), WAR, TLT. I haven't looked into the others yet. Unless of course I'm reading something wrong here - in which case I need to know what the heck that research does...
TheMagister 07-03-07, 01:36 PM	WAR's not in violation: Central Gladius is our home district (Embassies in a LEI/POL structure) and Kelartus follows the right rules (Libraries in an EDU/IND structure). Am I missing something?
TelinArtho 07-03-07, 01:41 PM	WAR's not in violation: Central Gladius is our home district (Embassies in a LEI/POL structure) and Kelartus follows the right rules (Libraries in an EDU/IND structure). Am I missing something? I missed the part about the home district allows the traits of the guild as well as upgrades. In that case - I'm not sure if anyone is in violation... need to look again.
TelinArtho 07-03-07, 01:47 PM	Okay - I know I've got problems in CEF... CEF: (Home District - REL/POL) Tavern (POL/LEI - training hall (LEI)) Watchtower (POL/IND - Workshop (IND)) Graveyard (REL/LEI - Training Hall (LEI)) (Gorthyum) Explorer Guild (EDU/NAT - 2 Libraries (EDU), Excavation Pit (NAT)) Of those 4 structures - I think all of them but the libraries are invalid. Am I correct? Here's the other structures that have upgrades in other guilds: EHTC: Warehouse (2 trading posts, 1 embassy), Tavern (1 Training Hall), Herald Tower (2 Libraries) WAR: Theatre (LEI/POL - 2 Embassies), School (EDU/IND - 2 Libraries) PSI: Papermill (IND/EDU - 4 Libraries), Goldsmith (IND/LEI - 4 Training Halls) --Does have IND Cooperation II though TAO: University (EDU/IND - 2 Libraries) TLT: Inquisition (REL/POL - 1 Relic, 1 Embassy), Druid Circle (NAT/EDU - 3 Libraries), Fey Village (LEI/IND - 1 Training Hall) Also - how did TAO research Religion Organization? The research requires +3 trait in each district of the guild, but TAO doesn't have any faith in Arcadavius
TheMagister 07-03-07, 01:50 PM	If any of those structures are in Arkhein, their upgrades can match either the home or synergy trait of the individual structure (not the traits of the district!) and still be legal. Anything in Gawane or Gorthyum must match the Home trait of the structure.
TelinArtho 07-03-07, 01:53 PM	If any of those structures are in Arkhein, their upgrades can match either the home or synergy trait of the individual structure (not the traits of the district!) and still be legal. Anything in Gawane or Gorthyum must match the Home trait of the structure. Ah ok - so only the Excavation pit in Gorthyum is incorrect for CEF.
templer10 07-03-07, 02:07 PM	question - can you make a crawling tattoe of a personal only power? cant understand it from the description
TelinArtho 07-03-07, 02:22 PM	question - can you make a crawling tattoe of a personal only power? cant understand it from the description From the court decisions: Q: Can powers with a range of personal be placed in crawling tattoos? A: No. Exceptions to this are listed in the Crawling Tattoo description.
Macbrea 07-03-07, 02:26 PM	The reasoning behind this is that it creates a Fine Construct that drops from your body and touches you. The Construct is the actual thing that is casting the spell. It is based off the ML of the creater of the tattoo. As a result it has to be able to manifest powers on you just like a normal psion/psychic warrior. They have made special rules for body adjustment that are mentioned in the crawling tattoo. It should also be able to empathic transfer as it has 10 hps and 10 hardness. This would allow it to suddenly transfer upto maximum 20hps before it shattered. Something it is going to do anyways after the power is done.
hogarth 07-03-07, 02:41 PM	They have made special rules for body adjustment that are mentioned in the crawling tattoo. It should also be able to empathic transfer as it has 10 hps and 10 hardness. This would allow it to suddenly transfer upto maximum 20hps before it shattered. Something it is going to do anyways after the power is done. Personally, I would say that the one who taps the crawling tattoo would be treated as the manifester of the power (as is the case with a magical oil), not the tattoo itself. The wording doesn't specify one way or the other, though. Note that your interpretation (tattoo = manifester) makes Saffron Brass's crawling tattoo of Mindlink pretty useless. ;)
Macbrea 07-03-07, 02:49 PM	I am not sure it isn't.
hogarth 07-03-07, 03:08 PM	I am not sure it isn't. I'm just pointing out that your interpretation and Vathelokai's are mutually exclusive. There was a discussion (in the Prison thread, I think) about whether a crawling tattoo of Mindlink is valid or not; I think it got tagged as "not a violation", but I could be misremembering. You can take it to the Courtroom thread if you feel strongly about it. EDIT: Here's the prison violation. Actually, I might've been the only one who had an opinion on the issue.
Vathelokai 07-03-07, 03:15 PM	Also - how did TAO research Religion Organization? The research requires +3 trait in each district of the guild, but TAO doesn't have any faith in Arcadavius Because I thought it was just having a +3 in one district. I'll be fixing that this week. Thanks for pointing it out.
Macbrea 07-03-07, 03:15 PM	I am just saying that the original ruling for court ruling was based off the information that I just gave. It makes the most sense of the description of the item and is the reason it was rules as such.
Vathelokai 07-03-07, 03:17 PM	I'm just pointing out that your interpretation and Vathelokai's are mutually exclusive. There was a discussion (in the Prison thread, I think) about whether a crawling tattoo of Mindlink is valid or not; I think it got tagged as "not a violation", but I could be misremembering. You can take it to the Courtroom thread if you feel strongly about it. EDIT: Here's the prison violation. Actually, I might've been the only one who had an opinion on the issue. I talked to MWB in the courtroom about that one. The un-voted resolution was that powers that are both personal and multiple people just don't fit well with the tattoo rules. Since mindlink is really not a problem in the arena, it was agreed that we could just let it work. If we need to cover that with a real definition, bring it to the courtroom.
hogarth 07-03-07, 03:39 PM	I am just saying that the original ruling for court ruling was based off the information that I just gave. It makes the most sense of the description of the item and is the reason it was rules as such. As far as I can tell, the reasoning that "tattoo = manifester" is irrelevant to the fact that a crawling tattoo can't be made of a personal power (unless it could also target another creature, like Skate or Psionic Levitate). The reason you can't make a personal range crawling tattoo is because the crawling tattoo description clearly states that the power must target one or more creatures (or be an area effect power or be Body Adjustment); most Personal range powers don't.
Macbrea 07-03-07, 03:57 PM	That is because a personal power targets the manifester. If a Fine Construct manifested a power it would target a Fine Construct. Not the person it touches. This can be seen more clearly when a human does it. Bob manifests Force screen and touches Jill. Jill is not a valid target for force screen and therefore it cannot be transfered to Jill from Bob. Instead the power would form around Bob. The Fine Construct manifest force screen around itself and then shatters. Not very useful. So, the answer to the question is you could put a personal power on a crawling tattoo but it wouldn't be very useful. The same could be said of a Potion of Magic Missile. It's perfectly legal but who would waste the money?
hogarth 07-03-07, 04:07 PM	That is because a personal power targets the manifester. I'm not sure where you're getting that from -- as far as I know, the only powers/spells that target a creature are those with a line that says "Targets: One or more creatures" or something along those lines. Most "Personal" powers/spells don't target anything. <-- not true -- they usually say "Target: You".
TheMagister 07-03-07, 04:11 PM	Personal: the power affects only you. Touch: you must touch a creature or object to affect it. If a crawling tattoo (a fine construct?) manifests a "personal" range power, the crawling tattoo is the "you". You are "a creature it has to touch", if you catch my meaning. TM
Macbrea 07-03-07, 04:12 PM	Under targeting rules for psionic overview. Personal The power affects only you. This seems to indicate that by default personal powers target you.
hogarth 07-03-07, 04:20 PM	If a crawling tattoo (a fine construct?) manifests a "personal" range power, the crawling tattoo is the "you". You are "a creature it has to touch", if you catch my meaning. Except it doesn't specify anywhere that the crawling tattoo is treated as the manifester; it says a crawling tattoo "ferries" the power, and then the power "takes effect". I'm not saying it's necessarily a bad interpretation, but it's not specified n the rules as clearly as you're implying. In a similar vein, what about an intelligent spell-storing sword with Vampiric Touch in it? Do you think that would increase the sword's hit points, not the wielder's? Or if I have an intelligent power storing spiked chain, can I put "Touchsight" in it (since Touchsight has "Target: You")? And then I can have it sunder itself to activate the Touchsight?
SoulLord 07-03-07, 04:29 PM	Quick question on spellcasting services. If a spellcaster is lent by a gladiator a rod of extend spell the gladiator would only be charged for the normal spell cost, not the increased cost for an extended spell right?
Macbrea 07-03-07, 04:32 PM	Looking at the description of crawling tattoo it is obvious it makes a fine construct. A creature that is effected by spells that confuse it. The wearer of a crawling tattoo can tap the tattoo as a standard action that provokes attacks of opportunity, mentally specifying a target (to which the wearer must have line of sight). Instead of manifesting its stored power, the tattoo animates, drops to the ground, and scuttles toward the target. The original wearer need no longer concentrate on the tattoo once animated. The animated tattoo moves toward its designated target in the same round when it is activated. Treat it as a Fine construct that has AC 18, 10 hit points, a hardness of 5, speed 30 feet, and a bonus on attack rolls equal to the wearer’s manifester level + his key ability modifier. Crawling tattoos, unlike true constructs, are subject to illusions, darkness, fog, and similar effects. Should the target be killed, teleport away, or otherwise absent itself before the animated tattoo reaches it, the wearer can reclaim the tattoo. If it is destroyed, a crawling tattoo shatters and evaporates. So.. it works as follows: 1) You put Fine construct on body 2) You give it a mental command that orders it to jump from your body 3) The Fine Construct jumps from your body instead of manifesting it's power on you automaticly. 4) it runs across the ground to it's target and tries to touch it. It has Hps, Hardness and AC. It can be effected by it's items which could confuse any other person. This clearly is a case of creating a creature which does something. Another such example of this would be the figurine of wonderous powers. You activate the item by commanding it to attack. It drops to the ground runs across the ground and attacks it's target. There doesn't seem to be any confusion about wether the figurine is the attacker or the activator.
TelinArtho 07-03-07, 04:33 PM	Quick question on spellcasting services. If a spellcaster is lent by a gladiator a rod of extend spell the gladiator would only be charged for the normal spell cost, not the increased cost for an extended spell right? Well - the rod is governed by the 3FC (so you could only use one per rod as a prebuff). I'm not sure that this is necessarily abusable - but it seems pretty benign to me. CL5 * SL3 * 10 = 150gp CL7 * SL4 * 10 = 280gp In any case - its not covered by the rules right now - so if you want to do it - better to get a response on the matter in the council. PM MWB if you want a quick answer though.
Erithmu 07-03-07, 04:34 PM	Here is an odd question kinda building off the Enervation question that is going on in the FotW thread. If a wizard casts Psychic Turmoil which then drains a mainfester past his pp useage for the week, does it continue to drain them into the remainder of their pp reserves for the 3FC?
templer10 07-03-07, 04:38 PM	Here is an odd question kinda building off the Enervation question that is going on in the FotW thread. If a wizard casts Psychic Turmoil which then drains a mainfester past his pp useage for the week, does it continue to drain them into the remainder of their pp reserves for the 3FC? sure - why shouldnt it - the 3FC is an artificial division for purpose of the arena - you still have your max amount of PPS so if you "overused" it or it got burned out or whatever - in week 1/2 it cuts down into your PPS for the other 1-2 weeks. it's the same thing as in week 1 you can use your whole PPS allotment and still have your psionic focus since you didnt burn your whole pps store. p.s. - this is by the RAW anyway- you can always house rule otherwise so not to let someone make someone's else char autolose the next 2 fights.
TheMagister 07-03-07, 04:45 PM	p.s. - this is by the RAW anyway- you can always house rule otherwise so not to let someone make someone's else char autolose the next 2 fights. ...but I hope we never do. The RAW way keeps things...spicy. TM
templer10 07-03-07, 04:49 PM	...but I hope we never do. The RAW way keeps things...spicy. TM err there arent that many full psions around - errr. ok - there's only my 2 guys actually at the higher ECLS (and i mean those that didnt lose manifester levels) - so that power isnt really worth it. ALthrough with 3 great reknown i do make a nice juicy target... (working on number 4).
MindWandererB 07-03-07, 05:48 PM	I talked to MWB in the courtroom about that one. The un-voted resolution was that powers that are both personal and multiple people just don't fit well with the tattoo rules. Since mindlink is really not a problem in the arena, it was agreed that we could just let it work.I did? <scratches head> I don't recall having said that....Because I thought it was just having a +3 in one district. I'll be fixing that this week. Thanks for pointing it out.No, don't. It is supposed to be a +3 in all your districts put together (otherwise, you'd lose the development when you took a new district--and getting +9 in all districts is darn near impossible). This is one of those not-native-English problems with Cat's rules. I'll take a look. Edit: Fixed.
TelinArtho 07-03-07, 06:02 PM	I wish I had known that before... Well - I guess that will just be changing a few things in CEF's future... (since I don't need to get +3 in each district, I don't need to build two more structures just to research something...) @Zevox - as a result CEF will need to resend our Guild Actions.
stimpydoda 07-03-07, 06:41 PM	"Ymandrake" Thanks for the help.
xZerasx 07-03-07, 07:23 PM	Hello All! My name's Vasja Volin, and I've just posted a character to start on the Core Coliseum : Isaiah Shar. If anyone could look over it and OK it for battle, that would be great :D .
TelinArtho 07-03-07, 07:37 PM	Hello All! My name's Vasja Volin, and I've just posted a character to start on the Core Coliseum : Isaiah Shar. If anyone could look over it and OK it for battle, that would be great :D . Welcome to the CoCo. If you have any questions - this is certainly the place to start. About your character - there's a bit of an issue on the price of your weapon. Special materials that are applied to large weapons and include masterworked as part of the cost get a little confusing. [50gp (base cost) + 700gp (Deepcrystal cost minus [Ma] component)]*2 + 300gp ([Ma] Component) = 1800gp Or for a crafted one - that would be 900gp. Also - note the duration on Expansion if it isn't augmented - 1 round/level. ML3 Augmented stones last 30 minutes due to the augmentation (10 minutes/level). Otherwise - your attack bonus should be +6 (+1 BAB, +4 Str, +1 enh). You are definitely missing a ranged weapon - with a 30ft speed - you won't be able to rely on getting to melee. I can't comment much on the character because I'm not too familiar with psionics, but he seems solid enough.
amalcon 07-03-07, 07:48 PM	In the spirit of all these new characters being looked over, I've been working on Jevian Rond for a while. He's almost ready now. I'm mostly looking for a suggestion of a power to replace Energy Ray. Of course, any mechanical problems would be good to point out, as well.
MindWandererB 07-03-07, 07:50 PM	Hello All! My name's Vasja Volin, and I've just posted a character to start on the Core Coliseum : Isaiah Shar. If anyone could look over it and OK it for battle, that would be great :D .The price on the power stones is also off. Power stones with a range of "personal" are at double cost (an obscure rule that few people find on the first pass). So the Force Screens and Vigors cost 100 gp each. And, as Telin said, an ML 1 Expansion is pretty useless. Remember to keep the expendable limit (450 gp at your level) in mind when you decide what to keep. Oh, and "+2 Str" isn't a conditional modifier; I'm not sure what it's doing there.
TheMagister 07-03-07, 08:20 PM	The price on the power stones is also off. Power stones with a range of "personal" are at double cost (an obscure rule that few people find on the first pass). So the Force Screens and Vigors cost 100 gp each. And, as Telin said, an ML 1 Expansion is pretty useless. Remember to keep the expendable limit (450 gp at your level) in mind when you decide what to keep. Oh, and "+2 Str" isn't a conditional modifier; I'm not sure what it's doing there. Power Stones, MWB? Or Tattoos? I'm certain about the "personal + tattoo = x2 cost" thing, but I'm not remembering any such thing with powerstones.
MindWandererB 07-03-07, 08:39 PM	Power Stones, MWB? Or Tattoos? I'm certain about the "personal + tattoo = x2 cost" thing, but I'm not remembering any such thing with powerstones.Right. I saw the 50 gp, and my brain skipped a step. Never mind.
Vathelokai 07-03-07, 11:33 PM	...but I hope we never do. The RAW way keeps things...spicy. TM :rofl: I did? <scratches head> I don't recall having said that... Maybe it was Sauro... and I'm sure my paraphrase is not quite on the mark. Lets check out this board search function.... Edit: hrmmm... not in the current council or courtroom. Anyway, it was along the lines that some of the tattoos don't mesh well with the rules, so for the really odd cases (specificly mind link in that discussion) it was said that it should work like the character want's to. I.e. a crawling tattoo fo mindlink would link the minds of two characters despite the limitation of the tattoo disappearing once it's touched the contactee. I can't remember why I was thinking this was related to who is the 'manifester' for a crawling tattoo's powers...
Sjiggie 07-03-07, 11:37 PM	Now that the pairings are delayed one day we have to set our characters ready for july 5th right?
stimpydoda 07-03-07, 11:45 PM	:raincloud "Ymandrake" Thanks for the help. A shameful bump :raincloud Any help is appreciated, thanks.
Erithmu 07-04-07, 12:20 AM	"Ymandrake" Thanks for the help. Need to list your ASF for the chain shirt for your arcane scrolls, and this could prove interesting when you consider that if you hit ASF you use the scroll up. Turn/Rebuke is linked to Spontanious Casting of cure/inflict spells. Need to pick one way or the other. Sunder listing should be +13 (dunno why you get to have +5 from your feat.) Otherwise looks workable
Zevox 07-04-07, 01:20 AM	err there arent that many full psions around - errr. ok - there's only my 2 guys actually at the higher ECLS (and i mean those that didnt lose manifester levels) - so that power isnt really worth it.. So, you haven't noticed Istima Telarc [Great Reknown], Psibeast, or Gaston Dar'ath [Great Reknown] yet I take it? Zevox
Yitzi 07-04-07, 01:31 AM	Now that the pairings are delayed one day we have to set our characters ready for july 5th right? Where did it say the pairings are delayed?
templer10 07-04-07, 01:46 AM	So, you haven't noticed Istima Telarc [Great Reknown], Psibeast, or Gaston Dar'ath [Great Reknown] yet I take it? Zevox i meant active in the arena m8.
Zevox 07-04-07, 01:46 AM	"Ymandrake" Thanks for the help. If you're planning on using that magic domain for scrolls much, you might want to use mage armor instead of normal armor - you may find the ASF might not be worth it. If you were willing not to use the magic domain, you could get heavier armor that still works with your speed of thought feat (mithril breastplate is some nice light armor, mithril full plate is the best medium armor), although either would require waiting a bit to get funds for granted. You might want to consider having fewer expendables but at a higher CL. CL 1 scrolls are easy to outlast, and surely you don't need three enlarge person scrolls, or the protection from law and chaos scrolls (good and evil are sufficient to ward off any summons). Speaking of expendables, a CL 2 wand of shield might be worth considering in place of those scrolls. A bit costly, but no ASF applies and its very cost-effective and has a sufficient duration to last through most fights. You might even want to ditch the darkwood shield entirely in favor of such a wand, since it carries a 15% ASF and the spell doesn't take up one of your hands like it does. Theres no need for both a spiked gauntlet and armor spikes. If you have the armor spikes, the gauntlet is a complete waste; if you don't, the gauntlet is worth it then. You might want to reconsider preparing that fear spell. You want to get to melee, so why send your foes running? Command would be a better idea - send your foes prone or force them to come to you instead. You might also want to reconsider preparing two Entropic Shields - my experience is that spell doesn't get used all that often, and rarely helps when it does. Perhaps Shield of Faith, Command, or Obscuring Mist in its place? How many Psychic Warrior levels do you plan to take? If its not many, the grip of iron power is really a waste. 1 round/level duration is bad in the best circumstances, and it looks like you're not focusing on grappling either anyway. Might I suggest Empty Mind (+2 will save as immediate action) instead? Others would depend on how many psychic warrior levels you're taking, but things like Force Screen, Offensive/Defensive Precognition, Thicken Skin, and Expansion would all be good if you're taking 2 or 3+ levels. Zevox
Zevox 07-04-07, 01:49 AM	i meant active in the arena m8. Gaston is active in the arena - he just had a fight just two weeks ago. Istima has long been active in the arena, and will be again as soon as the campaign ends (in theory, should be just another 5 or so weeks, though posting has been so darn slow lately I'm beginning to wonder if it won't get canceled). Psibeast I can't speak for though. Zevox
Guildlords 07-04-07, 02:04 AM	A quick note for all Guildmasters: since the pairings have been delayed and my own schedule prevented me from doing the CAP reactions and random events on Tuesday, I'll be doing those on Wednesday and posting the Guild Actions on Thursday this week.
stimpydoda 07-04-07, 02:26 AM	Ya, I forgot about scrolls and arcane spell failure.(still seems silly to me) I'll drop the armor for mage armor and shield. I don't have the gold for the wand of shield right now, but that is a fair idea. I guess I would be fine with armor spikes. I don't have experience with clerics yet, so I'll take your advice. Command looks better now anyways. I really just took PsyWarrior for the feats. Got to avoid Wild Talent and get Speed of Thought. I thought about taking another lv at 6th, but I might just do fighter instead. The one power I use is fire emergencies only since it takes away my reserve. Open mind is a good idea. Thanks for the help! :)
Zevox 07-04-07, 02:36 AM	I guess I would be fine with armor spikes. Well, you kinda need armor to have armor spikes, so if you're dumping that for mage armor, you should probably go with the gauntlet. I really just took PsyWarrior for the feats. Got to avoid Wild Talent and get Speed of Thought. I thought about taking another lv at 6th, but I might just do fighter instead. The one power I use is fire emergencies only since it takes away my reserve. Open mind is a good idea. A second Psychic Warrior level vs a first Fighter one? Psychic Warrior is better, no question. You still get the feat and the +1 bab, gain another power, have powers with a better duration, and get more pp, and lose out on only 1 fortitude save and 1 hp. Zevox
xZerasx 07-04-07, 03:17 AM	Thanks for the help! Ive fixed up some stuff and added a ranged weapon: Isaiah Shar. Luckily the deadline has been extended so I can survive the first round of combat =D.
MindWandererB 07-04-07, 03:36 AM	Where did it say the pairings are delayed? In this thread, earlier.
hogarth 07-04-07, 08:29 AM	So, you haven't noticed Istima Telarc [Great Reknown], Psibeast, or Gaston Dar'ath [Great Reknown] yet I take it? Zevox Any reason you're snubbing Reginald Molehusband [Great Reknown] in your list? (O.K., I admit he hasn't been that active recently -- I was waiting for the Diplomacy rules to sort themselves out.)
TheMagister 07-04-07, 12:36 PM	What're you maroons doing hanging out here?! I'm stuck at work (double-time-and-a-half...mmmm), so that's my excuse. Don't you people have family to go visit or something?! :D TM
stimpydoda 07-04-07, 12:38 PM	I just blew up a tree....so I have to stay inside now... :(
hogarth 07-04-07, 12:55 PM	What're you maroons doing hanging out here?! Same thing you were doing on Canada Day, I imagine. ;)
TheMagister 07-04-07, 01:01 PM	Same thing you were doing on Canada Day, I imagine. ;) Pssht. Everyone knows that the entire world celebrates the Fourth of July. {he says with typical American lack of hubris}
Abyssal Stalker 07-04-07, 01:01 PM	Same thing you were doing on Canada Day, I imagine. ;) Yeah, 4th of July is big here too... :rolleyes:
TheMagister 07-04-07, 01:03 PM	Yeah, 4th of July is big here too... :rolleyes: Should be. You're not worried about the SS, are you? :eek: Yeah, I shouldn't have gone there. :cool:
Abyssal Stalker 07-04-07, 01:05 PM	Should be. You're not worried about the SS, are you? :eek: Yeah, I shouldn't have gone there. :cool: I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, but it's probably something hilarious, so I'll just insert a smiley here...there :D :)
hogarth 07-04-07, 01:10 PM	I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, but it's probably something hilarious, so I'll just insert a smiley here...there They don't teach you about the American liberation of Finland in school? What kind of education are you getting?
stimpydoda 07-04-07, 01:13 PM	They don't teach you about the American liberation of Finland in school? What kind of education are you getting? What's a "Finland?" :)
Abyssal Stalker 07-04-07, 01:19 PM	They don't teach you about the American liberation of Finland in school? What kind of education are you getting? Of course they do, what could be any more important? I guess I was just too busy with something even more important in the last row of the class... :) I was confused of the "SS" TM was referring to. The only meaning I could think of for that abreviation was the nazi forces at WWII... And I guess he wasn't talking about them.
Abyssal Stalker 07-04-07, 01:20 PM	What's a "Finland?" :) Well, that was expected :) Everything you didn't ever want to know about Finland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland). Oh, and seriously. Happy 4th of July for everyone over there at the other side of the Atlantic!
TheMagister 07-04-07, 01:30 PM	I was confused of the "SS" TM was referring to. The only meaning I could think of for that abreviation was the nazi forces at WWII... And I guess he wasn't talking about them. You were seriously confused? I thought you were just playing at ignorance! I was referring to the Secret Service. If the USA doesn't help in WWII, the Germans aren't fighting a war on two fronts, and they crush Stalingrad after a second try (in the spring instead of winter), then Germany owns Finland (along with the rest of Europe-Asia) because Finland surrendered to Russia. At least, that's what could have possibly happened. I'm no expert...
Zevox 07-04-07, 02:03 PM	Any reason you're snubbing Reginald Molehusband [Great Reknown] in your list? (O.K., I admit he hasn't been that active recently -- I was waiting for the Diplomacy rules to sort themselves out.) Sorry - completely forgot about him, sine he hasn't been active in so long. (And for some odd reason, he and Kilp seem to blend together in my memory whenever I think of your characters...) What're you maroons doing hanging out here?! I'm stuck at work (double-time-and-a-half...mmmm), so that's my excuse. Don't you people have family to go visit or something?! :D TM Heh, I already did that. My family had our 4th of July party last Saturday. My Uncle lives on a lake, you see, and they do some absolutely wonderful fireworks from an island on it every year, but decided to do it on a day when the average resident there wouldn't have to work the next morning this year. Anyway, happy Fourth of July to all you Americans, and to the rest of you... eh, you don't know what you're missing. ;) Zevox
TheMagister 07-04-07, 02:50 PM	Cheese Check: Does the whirling frenzy alternate barbarian class feature enable a raging barbarian to make two attacks either before or after a move action (as opposed to requiring a full attack action like the extra attack granted by the haste spell)? It certainly doesn't have the same language as haste, which specifically states that a full attack action is necessary...
Zevox 07-04-07, 02:54 PM	Cheese Check: Does the whirling frenzy alternate barbarian class feature enable a raging barbarian to make two attacks either before or after a move action (as opposed to requiring a full attack action like the extra attack granted by the haste spell)? It certainly doesn't have the same language as haste, which specifically states that a full attack action is necessary... It doesn't say it allows that, and the default rule is that you can't make more than one attack per round unless you make a full attack, so I think the answer is a resounding "no!" Besides, that variant is overpowered enough to begin with, we don't need to be making it more powerful with silly overly-literal interpretations of it. Zevox
hogarth 07-04-07, 03:06 PM	Cheese Check: Does the whirling frenzy alternate barbarian class feature enable a raging barbarian to make two attacks either before or after a move action (as opposed to requiring a full attack action like the extra attack granted by the haste spell)? It certainly doesn't have the same language as haste, which specifically states that a full attack action is necessary... This is covered under the language for the "Full Attack" action: If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks.
TheMagister 07-04-07, 03:07 PM	Okay, I can go with that.
Abyssal Stalker 07-04-07, 03:42 PM	You were seriously confused? I thought you were just playing at ignorance! I was referring to the Secret Service. If the USA doesn't help in WWII, the Germans aren't fighting a war on two fronts, and they crush Stalingrad after a second try (in the spring instead of winter), then Germany owns Finland (along with the rest of Europe-Asia) because Finland surrendered to Russia. At least, that's what could have possibly happened. I'm no expert... Well, it's not quite like that: Finland was actually fighting alongside Germany in WWII. That was because there were no other options because of our location. There are some pretty important strategic places on the southern shores of Finland if you consider the Baltic Sea. That is why the Soviet Union attacked Finland in 1939. But a miracle happened and the small Finland was able to stand against the massive Red Army. The war went on in different stages and lasted until 1944. Germany fell and Finland had no other choice but to work out a peace on Russian terms (not exactly a surrender considering the different turns of the war). Finland was never conquered by the Soviet Union, unlike the other East European countries - and that has had a major effect on the state of our country if you compare to the countries that were under the influence of Soviet Union until it's fall in the 90's. Now, the scenario you are describing... If Germany had won and Russia would've fallen, Finland would've actually been on the side of the winner. Not that it would've been any better to losing to Soviet Union because that would've eventually led to being under the dictatorship of another madman. But if the USA had remained impartial, wouldn't you have been afraid of the V2 rockets that Germany was developing at the end of WWII. Enough history for one day...I'll go to bed when our kid gives us a chance. He has been crying all the time and now he finally fell asleep...and I have an early morning.
Scribelords 07-04-07, 06:37 PM	General Announcements New Photos One of our oldest and one of our newest have submitted photos to the gallery. Check 'em out. Unfortunately the gallery is currently archived, but they'll be added eventually. For now, look at them here... http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x45/Pitlords/Member%20Photos/Vathelokai.jpg http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x45/Pitlords/Member%20Photos/stimpydoda.jpg Birthdays I'm horrible about remember birthdays. Appologies for the lack of announcement. You have all gotten your credits. This month, look out for the birthdays of Saurogrenom, TheMagister, TaggIIV, and the illustrious WizO_Shadow! Also this month, the birthday of The Core Coliseum itself, July 28. This year we turn 4! Writing Contest Due to delays in submission the deadline for the writing contest is being postponed to the 28th. When it first came up, a lot of people said they wanted to submit, but have been having trouble with finding writing time. If you have something half finished, send me a PM. I may move the deadline back further if needed. Newspaper of Gladius Our perenial publication will be coming back soon. We are always looking for writers. No submission is too small for the paper. Two sentence briefs and gossip are fine by me. We are currently working out a credit system to pay for all submissions (though short articles will get fractions of credits, the same as the prison). Interested parties can send PMs to Scribelords or Vathelokai.
TelinArtho 07-05-07, 09:38 AM	Fixed. Im not sure about the cost of the greatsword either, but that was the cost pointed out to me on the tavern. The calculation is: [(50 gp Greatsword + 1000 DeepCrystal - 300 MW Component) * 2 Large Size + 300 MW Component] * 0.5 Crafting I thought it should be either [(50 gp Sword) * 2 Large + 1000 Deepcrystal] * 0.5 Crafting or even [(50 gp Sword) * 2 Large + 1000 Deepcrystal + 300 MW] * 0.5 Crafting Either way, It shouldn't affect much for the upcoming battle, as the most it could cost is 900, and I have 500+ unused and am not planning on buying anything with it. Thank you very much for the help! This is to alleviate the question about the cost of the greatsword. This is answered in the FAQ on page 45 (in the equipment section). I'm not going to reprint the question and answer, but essentially, items of different size always have the same cost for Masterwork. If a special material has masterwork as a property, then before doubling the cost of the special material (or quadrupling or whatever), you are supposed to take out the Masterwork cost and add it at the end.
Macbrea 07-05-07, 10:00 AM	Worry, not Abyssal Stalker. Most Americans keep track of which country the descended from elsewhere in the world. I am a perfect example. My great grandmother is from the Lapland region of northern Finland. And my Great grand father is from Ulster, Ireland. As much as we kid the rest of the world, we understand we are the melting pot of the people that didn't do well in their own country and moved here to make it on their own. As a result our culture is a little diverse.
xZerasx 07-05-07, 10:20 AM	Thanks for the help with the cost, and the point to the FAQ. My final cost should then be 1200 gp [(50+1000)*2+300]*0.5, as DeepCrystal makes no mention of having the masterwork cost being included (as adamantine does).
TelinArtho 07-05-07, 10:23 AM	Okay - that is actually in the SRD: : Deep crystal is crystal of above-average quality found at the hearts of large veins or deposits of mundane crystal (see below). Deep crystal is renowned for its strength and its psionically resonant nature. Mundane crystal is used for many items of psionic manufacture, such as dorjes, power stones, and psicrystals. Deep crystal is a better grade. While a weapon made of deep crystal is no different from a mundane crystal weapon for a nonpsionic character, a psionic wielder of a deep crystal weapon can focus psionic power through it, increasing the damage that weapon deals. Mundane crystal can be used in place of metal in weapons or armor, using a special forging process. The fortified crystal possesses the properties of a similar masterwork steel weapon or armor, except for visual appearance. Weapons and armor made of mundane crystal cost the same amount to make as their masterwork counterparts. Any item could potentially be made with mundane crystal. Because mundane crystal armor is considered to be made out of metal, druids cannot wear it. So as above tells you - mundane crystal items are masterwork and deep crystal is essentially mundane crystal plus more - deep crystal is masterwork as well.
xZerasx 07-05-07, 10:37 AM	Thanks yet again. I completely missed reading that line. Finally fixed the cost, which should be 900. My apologies on these mistakes. I am a bit new to this, and I'll be reading more carefully in the future =D.
TelinArtho 07-05-07, 10:38 AM	Thanks yet again. I completely missed reading that line. Finally fixed the cost, which should be 900. My apologies on these mistakes. I am a bit new to this, and I'll be reading more carefully in the future =D. Don't sweat about it. I've been here for a few years now and I still misspeak fairly frequently.
Hirumajoe 07-05-07, 11:32 AM	Just had an odd thought: Can you use the soft fall section of the ride skill while being grappled? The grapple section seems to make an all inclusive list of what you can do, and the ride skill doesn't seem to be one of them. Are you allowed to take any free actions at all that aren't listed? Could you for example, ride for cover, while mounted and grappled if your opponent tries to attack you with a light weapon with -4 penalty in the grapple?
Macbrea 07-05-07, 11:47 AM	You have to be able to take some acions not listed on the list otherwise the character with the greatsword that is grappled may not free up a hand to actually hold onto his opponent. It would seem reasonable to drop the greatsword. But that is also a free action.
templer10 07-05-07, 11:48 AM	Just had an odd thought: Can you use the soft fall section of the ride skill while being grappled? The grapple section seems to make an all inclusive list of what you can do, and the ride skill doesn't seem to be one of them. Are you allowed to take any free actions at all that aren't listed? Could you for example, ride for cover, while mounted and grappled if your opponent tries to attack you with a light weapon with -4 penalty in the grapple? i dont know if you are allowed to take free actions that arent listed but using the ride skill as "riding for cover" is spesificly mentioned to be "not an action" at all so you can do it.
TheMagister 07-05-07, 11:54 AM	Not if I'm DMing... Certain things just don't make sense. How can you have cover from something that shares your space? How could you move yourself to the other side of your horse while you're being held in place by an opponent?
Macbrea 07-05-07, 11:56 AM	Here is an odd question for you TM... so, razorfang is grappling, with a goblin rider. Can the rider use mounted combat to avoid hits from light or natural weapons on Razorfang? As the rider isn't in the grapple, his mount is.
hogarth 07-05-07, 11:56 AM	I would say "no" to using soft fall/ride for cover while grappled; the list of things you're allowed to do seems quite short. Just my opinion, though. Another grappling-related question: how do rakes work in a grapple? I can see two possible alternatives: The Nerf interpretation: A creature with rake gets two (or more) extra claw attacks useable in a grapple, but they still take the place of a grapple check. So a lion that is grappling has access to 5 natural weapons, but it only gets to use one per round anyway (because it has +3 BAB). The Uber interpretation: A creature with rake gets two (or more) extra claw attacks useable in a grapple, in addition to whatever grapple checks it can make because of its BAB. So a grappling lion can make three attacks per round -- one because of its +3 BAB and two rakes.
Macbrea 07-05-07, 11:59 AM	It's BAB has nothing to do with number of attacks it gets. It has 5 natural attacks. It gets to make all primary at BAB and all secondary attacks at BAB-5 with half strength. EDIT: Hmm, our court ruling makes no sense. According to it. The lion would get 1 natural attack in a grapple.
Yitzi 07-05-07, 12:11 PM	Here is an odd question for you TM... so, razorfang is grappling, with a goblin rider. Can the rider use mounted combat to avoid hits from light or natural weapons on Razorfang? As the rider isn't in the grapple, his mount is. I would say that he can. Just as Razorfang can apply his DEX bonus to attacks against him, his rider can help him dodge. I probably would not (at least in my own game) let him use it to help Razorfang evade attacks by someone he is not grappling; it probably would count as a house rule, but I think that mounted combat should not be usable when the mount loses its DEX bonus due to being immobilized. As for cover, I would say that you can't ride for cover any time you cannot move.
Zevox 07-05-07, 12:30 PM	Another grappling-related question: how do rakes work in a grapple? I can see two possible alternatives: The Nerf interpretation: A creature with rake gets two (or more) extra claw attacks useable in a grapple, but they still take the place of a grapple check. So a lion that is grappling has access to 5 natural weapons, but it only gets to use one per round anyway (because it has +3 BAB). The Uber interpretation: A creature with rake gets two (or more) extra claw attacks useable in a grapple, in addition to whatever grapple checks it can make because of its BAB. So a grappling lion can make three attacks per round -- one because of its +3 BAB and two rakes. Rake is a special ability specifically added to the creature's normal attacks in a grapple, so the second is correct. It's BAB has nothing to do with number of attacks it gets. It has 5 natural attacks. It gets to make all primary at BAB and all secondary attacks at BAB-5 with half strength. EDIT: Hmm, our court ruling makes no sense. According to it. The lion would get 1 natural attack in a grapple. Thats not just our ruling - it comes straight from the FAQ. (Ironically, it seems this also answers Hogarth's question directly.) How many attacks does a creature with multiple natural weapons get while it’s grappling? How many grapple checks can it make in a round? Under normal circumstances, a creature can can attack with only one of its natural weapons while grappling (and it takes a –4 penalty on such attacks; PH 156). A grappling dire bear can attack with either a claw or its bite. The rake special attack gives the creature “two additional claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe” (and which don’t take the normal –4 penalty to such attacks; MM 314). A creature that chooses to make grapple checks in place of attacks—that is, to damage its opponent, escape from the grapple, move, pin its opponent, or use its opponent’s weapon—is allowed one grapple check for every attack that its base attack bonus would allow (even if it doesn’t normally make multiple attacks in this manner). These attacks deal damage as an unarmed strike made by a creature of that size (1d3 for Medium, 1d4 for Large, 1d6 for Huge, and so forth, plus its Strength modifier). A creature with BAB +0 to +5 may make one grapple check in place of an attack, BAB +6 to +10 two, BAB +11 to +15 three, and BAB +16 to +20 four. The dire bear, for example, may make two grapple checks in place of attacks, thanks to its base attack bonus of +9: one using its full BAB and the second using its BAB –5. Zevox
hogarth 07-05-07, 12:50 PM	Thats not just our ruling - it comes straight from the FAQ. (Ironically, it seems this also answers Hogarth's question directly.) Zevox -- note that the FAQ entry doesn't agree with the "Rules of the Game" article on grappling. According to the RotG, animals attacking in a grapple are handled the same way as a character using the "Attack Your Opponent" option (i.e. relying on BAB). The FAQ entry seems to imply that a grappling animal can make one attack (period). Or am I reading things wrong?
Zevox 07-05-07, 12:54 PM	Zevox -- note that the FAQ entry doesn't agree with the "Rules of the Game" article on grappling. According to the RotG, animals attacking in a grapple are handled the same way as a character using the "Attack Your Opponent" option (i.e. relying on BAB). The FAQ entry seems to imply that a grappling animal can make one attack (period). Or am I reading things wrong? The FAQ trumps the RotG (speaking of which, I should probably bring back up the suggestion that we stop using those damn things in the courtroom). And no, you're not reading things wrong - a grappling animal can normally only make one attack or however many grapple checks its bab allows, plus its rake attacks if any. The reason it can only make one attack is that natural weapons never get extra attacks based on bab. Zevox
MindWandererB 07-05-07, 02:58 PM	Zevox -- note that the FAQ entry doesn't agree with the "Rules of the Game" article on grappling. According to the RotG, animals attacking in a grapple are handled the same way as a character using the "Attack Your Opponent" option (i.e. relying on BAB). The FAQ entry seems to imply that a grappling animal can make one attack (period). Or am I reading things wrong? Actually, you are reading it wrong, but because the RotG makes an omission. Some options available while grappling (such as “Damage Your Opponent” and “Pin Your Opponent”) state that they may be used in place of an attack. The monster gets as many “attacks” in a full attack action as it would get if it were attacking with a weapon, based on its base attack bonus: +1 to +5, one attack; +6 to +10, two attacks; +11 to +15, three attacks, and +16 and up, four attacks. Each one after the first would suffer a cumulative –5 penalty on the roll (just like a character with a high BAB making multiple weapon attacks).Note that it does not mention the "attack opponent" option. Because that's a natural weapon attack, the monster gets only one (plus rakes, if any). Anything that uses a grapple check, however, gets iterative attacks based on BAB. It implies that the "attack opponent" option would be based on BAB (because it takes the place of an attack, like the other examples), but that's just sloppiness.
hogarth 07-05-07, 03:24 PM	Actually, you are reading it wrong, but because the RotG makes an omission. Note that it does not mention the "attack opponent" option. Because that's a natural weapon attack, the monster gets only one (plus rakes, if any). Anything that uses a grapple check, however, gets iterative attacks based on BAB. It implies that the "attack opponent" option would be based on BAB (because it takes the place of an attack, like the other examples), but that's just sloppiness. Just for those of you following along at home, here's the part I found confusing: In general, monsters follow the same rules as PCs when conducting a grapple. Monsters in a grapple may use their natural weapons, but only by using the “Attack Your Opponent” option (which applies a –4 penalty on the attack roll). When using the “Damage Your Opponent” option, the creature deals unarmed strike damage appropriate to its size (see Part 2 of this column)
Yitzi 07-05-07, 04:07 PM	Question: Since there wasn't enough time from when it was approved until the deadline for updates, can I apply the bonus trick "aid attacks" for Daren Legrad's animal companion this week, even though it is not on his sheet?
Pitlords 07-05-07, 04:14 PM	Since it was approved after the reasonable time to update happened, yes. Just make sure to point to the approval in your tactics.
TheMagister 07-05-07, 04:58 PM	Okay, so WAR soaks a PMG attack on a week where I've allocated both CAPs to something else. That means that the PMG operative cannot be intercepted by WAR, right? TM
Pitlords 07-05-07, 05:00 PM	Okay, so WAR soaks a PMG attack on a week where I've allocated both CAPs to something else. That means that the PMG operative cannot be intercepted by WAR, right? TM Unless you have a guardian on the structure, correct. This is why I've instituted a policy at CEF to buy a CAP anytime we use 2 CAPs - because CEF was attacked the one week when we sent someone on a mission.
TheMagister 07-05-07, 05:01 PM	Then you might as well roll that beautiful bean footage.
Zevox 07-05-07, 11:22 PM	@ Telin - Hm, just noticed the RP going on at TLT. If thats actually a part of your story for the Denth campaign and it happens to get around to the other Guilds, you might have an alternative applicant from me if I can't get Nimbus ready in time. News about a potential planar rift would definitely get the attention of a certain arrogant Half-Fiend. ...I just got an image of him being in the same group as the new Sdentch and Willowmoon. Damn I'd have some fun there. Though it might make the group a little volatile, but that'd be half the fun. ;) But speaking of the campaign, just in case you might wanna know, I'm toning down the number of characters I'm activating in an effort to get enough credits to have Nimbus ready for that in time. Three a week only, for now being the 3 Durrol siblings. Don't know if it'll work, but its worth a shot (hey, only 30 credits to go...). And speaking of Nimbus, I've been working on him, and would appreciate any feedback on what I have so far. Here is his latest incarnation - I swapped Flyby Attack for Hover (figured being able to full attack flying characters was more important to him than strafing foes with a fairly low-DC pair of breath weapons). I've also finished out his purchases, picking up a Bag of Holding and some expendables (though they'll change if he doesn't get into the campaign), plus swapping his MM wand for a CMW one. I've developed two plans for him I'm debating between. The first is the one I gave before - Psychic Warrior 1, Cleric 1, 3 more racial HD, War Mind 4, feats being Power Attack, Divine Might, Wingover, and Flyby Attack. Focus there is on full attacks with Divine Might. At the fourth War Mind level he'd take Psionic Lion's Charge so he can even get a full attack on a dive or charge, which would hurt bad. The second is similar, yet in some ways quite different - ditch the Cleric level and Divine Might, taking a second Psychic Warrior level instead. I could reduce his charisma to boost his int and strength, make his Psychic Warrior feats Combat Expertise and Improved Trip (to help keep foes in melee once he catches them), and get either Improved Natural Attack (Claw) or Ability Focus (Breath Weaon) in place of Divine Might (or maybe Power Attack, if I feel that'll get enough use out of it on its own). Another thing I'm thinking of, though it'll take a long time into his career, is getting him an ML 15 Expansion Dorje. Would only be good in a few maps, but you do not want to be staring down the claws of a Gargantuan Dragon in those maps (the Plains especially). The problem of course is price - 90k gp (!!!) is just huge. Zevox
TelinArtho 07-06-07, 12:23 AM	Well - the details are still in the works - but I'll tell you that 'Rith is acting in his own capacity... he doesn't even know the full extent of what's going to be going on. That said, we are working together on the Denth campaign. Given the number of people who applied with even the mention of it - it became clear to me that a second campaign was necessary. This will allow anyone of any alignment (because we can syphon the evil into a separate group from the paladins) to participate. We're still at least a month away from things getting started though. Anyway - 'Rith is acting on his own RP there in TLT. And I like it a lot... ------------- As an aside from all of this - did anyone think when Kraegin had his auspicious introduction around 2 years ago, that his following would be such an intimidating factor in the present time? I sure as heck didn't... But I love it.
Zevox 07-06-07, 12:26 AM	(because we can syphon the evil into a separate group from the paladins) Awww.... :bigeyes:
Erithmu 07-06-07, 12:27 AM	The trick to good RP when using someone else's idea ... is to mix just enough of their storyline and throw in your own curve ball ideas. It is much like what KU did w/ Ephraim's storyline progression and incorporation into his Achos storyline. If nothing else it gives some questing options and me some mental warm up for going into campaign-lording. Although ... I might regret giving Telin 'ideas'
MindWandererB 07-06-07, 12:42 AM	As an aside from all of this - did anyone think when Kraegin had his auspicious introduction around 2 years ago, that his following would be such an intimidating factor in the present time? I sure as heck didn't...The Church of Denth has always been one of the things I've liked best about our campaign setting, here. It's about the only part of the world that's really taken off, to the point where most of the players have noticed it. It says a lot about the life that Telin put into the faith, mostly through quests but partially through sheer persistence.
Erithmu 07-06-07, 12:42 AM	I have seen it done both ways but what is the final vote on Dispel Psionics vs Ring of Counterspells (Dispel Magic) ... does it absorb the charge or bypass it?
Zevox 07-06-07, 12:46 AM	I have seen it done both ways but what is the final vote on Dispel Psionics vs Ring of Counterspells (Dispel Magic) ... does it absorb the charge or bypass it? Regretfully, last I heard, it bypasses it due to there being no "Counter-Manifesting" mechanic in Psionics for the Ring to be transparent with. Zevox
MindWandererB 07-06-07, 01:11 AM	Regretfully, last I heard, it bypasses it due to there being no "Counter-Manifesting" mechanic in Psionics for the Ring to be transparent with. Zevox Correct. Psionics cannot be countered, so a ring of counterspells won't have any effect on it. BTW, same would go for Dispel Magic used as an SLA.
Abyssal Stalker 07-06-07, 01:13 AM	The Church of Denth has always been one of the things I've liked best about our campaign setting, here. It's about the only part of the world that's really taken off, to the point where most of the players have noticed it. It says a lot about the life that Telin put into the faith, mostly through quests but partially through sheer persistence. Maybe this would be a good time to toss in my idea of CoCo religions. I once suggested that we created a pantheon for CoCo, but that time the idea got buried. One thing I learned that time was that there needs to be alot of variety. Maybe a separate thread like "The Gods of Gladius" where everyone can post their creations for others to use?
TelinArtho 07-06-07, 10:18 AM	Maybe this would be a good time to toss in my idea of CoCo religions. I once suggested that we created a pantheon for CoCo, but that time the idea got buried. One thing I learned that time was that there needs to be alot of variety. Maybe a separate thread like "The Gods of Gladius" where everyone can post their creations for others to use? Most of the religions that I use (Denth being the exception) are either ones from the PHB (Pelor for Sir Valkin for instance) or from my own home campaign. If someone takes a look at the (failed) quest I did for Sjiggie's Valanthe, I included a url link to the religion that was briefly mentioned in there. Many of the religions I use can be found on that website. I don't really know that there's enough for the Gods of Gladius. I like keeping things in the background of the characters and in the development through quests. Cataloguing it in another thread would be just another thread that gets lost among our other ones. That said - it has merit within the world of Gladius thread - so if anyone wants to dedicate a section in that thread - it would probably fit well in there.
templer10 07-06-07, 11:39 AM	question - the druid spell Entangle - can it be used only where there is some vegitation in teh area (plains, arena, city, forest) or everywhere (so seweres,temple, caverns also) the spell mention that plants are the things holding the entangled creature but wierdly enough they dont mention it cant be casted somewhere ther ARENT plants (possibly assuming there is always some vegitation).
TelinArtho 07-06-07, 11:41 AM	It can't be cast in the sewers, temple, cavern, most areas in the city (only green lawns), or on the paths in the forest. Plains and arena it works fine.
Zevox 07-06-07, 11:43 AM	question - the druid spell Entangle - can it be used only where there is some vegitation in teh area (plains, arena, city, forest) or everywhere (so seweres,temple, caverns also) the spell mention that plants are the things holding the entangled creature but wierdly enough they dont mention it cant be casted somewhere ther ARENT plants (possibly assuming there is always some vegitation). The spell only works where there are already plants. It does not say it creates plants, and in fact its area specifically says "plants in a 40' radius", which would be unnecessary if it created the plants (you don't see fireball saying "fire in a 20' radius" for its area). In addition theres the note mentioning that the spell may be altered based on the nature of the entangling plants, which obviously it couldn't be if the spell provided the plants. So your first one is correct - only in the plains, arena, and forest is it easily usable, and it can be used with the city's grass as well, but not in the cavern, temple, or sewer. Zevox
SoulLord 07-06-07, 12:05 PM	so I could use an alchemist flask or similar thing to make an area "entangle safe" by burning the vegetation?
MindWandererB 07-06-07, 12:29 PM	so I could use an alchemist flask or similar thing to make an area "entangle safe" by burning the vegetation?Probably not--we'd have to establish hit points and hardness of every plant in the area, and while some (grass) might have only 1 HP, others (tree branches, vines, larger weeds) might have too much to kill with alchy fire. In a TT game, one might make a ruling on the fly about it, but it would be a lot of trouble for us.Maybe this would be a good time to toss in my idea of CoCo religions. I once suggested that we created a pantheon for CoCo, but that time the idea got buried. One thing I learned that time was that there needs to be alot of variety. Maybe a separate thread like "The Gods of Gladius" where everyone can post their creations for others to use?The idea got buried mostly because no one could agree on anything. If you look at the characters with gods currently active, nearly all worship Greyhawk or Realms gods. We can't force them all to ditch their exicting gods (especially when, as in Zevox's case, one's characters have rich and deep ties to Realms/Greyhawk mythology). Furthermore, incoming players won't know about "our" pantheon, and will continue to do the same. We can certainly have some unique gods, but I think they'll have to take the form of specific organizations, just like we have cities and nations unique to Othala. If you want to create someone, you have to bring it to life. Although the logical way to do that would be as a quest- or campaignlord, it seems that the most success has been with PCs. I'm really hoping the Living Characters add-on will help with this. And I'm trying hard to get through all the more critical updates before we work on that, so bear with me!
TelinArtho 07-06-07, 01:13 PM	Okay - so a few members of the CEF are looking for a brave missionlord in a few weeks. The characters are: Sir Valkin (myself), Ephraim and Marcus (Erithmu), and Leif Goldeneye (Sunwolf). The EL of the mission would be 13 and is slated to start at the end of the month (CAPs sent on the 18th, mission to start on the 25th). Any takers?
Yitzi 07-06-07, 01:57 PM	Question: If two people are 20' away (for example), and there are 5' of an obscuring mist spell between them, is there cover or total cover?
Zevox 07-06-07, 02:10 PM	Question: If two people are 20' away (for example), and there are 5' of an obscuring mist spell between them, is there cover or total cover? Neither - there is total concealment for both (an important difference for the purposes of attacks, even if both would prevent LoS). Presuming that obscuring mist is between them, not just in the space of one of them (in which case that one gets concealment, the other gets nothing). Zevox
Abyssal Stalker 07-06-07, 02:18 PM	Probably not--we'd have to establish hit points and hardness of every plant in the area, and while some (grass) might have only 1 HP, others (tree branches, vines, larger weeds) might have too much to kill with alchy fire. In a TT game, one might make a ruling on the fly about it, but it would be a lot of trouble for us.The idea got buried mostly because no one could agree on anything. If you look at the characters with gods currently active, nearly all worship Greyhawk or Realms gods. We can't force them all to ditch their exicting gods (especially when, as in Zevox's case, one's characters have rich and deep ties to Realms/Greyhawk mythology). Furthermore, incoming players won't know about "our" pantheon, and will continue to do the same. We can certainly have some unique gods, but I think they'll have to take the form of specific organizations, just like we have cities and nations unique to Othala. If you want to create someone, you have to bring it to life. Although the logical way to do that would be as a quest- or campaignlord, it seems that the most success has been with PCs. I'm really hoping the Living Characters add-on will help with this. And I'm trying hard to get through all the more critical updates before we work on that, so bear with me! By no means do I want to force anyone to anything. Mostly I was looking for a place where those things could be easily found. At the moment all those nice ideas are buried in character sheets and quests. I'm perfectly fine with people having Greyhawk/Realms gods, because that seemed to be the biggest problem the first time I suggested something like this. Anyway, I don't have the time or energy at the moment for this, so it's probably better to leave it alone...
SoulLord 07-06-07, 02:35 PM	True but let's say something like the Arena there are no bushes, or the like around but entangle is allowed there maybe because of grass? now if someone were to cast a fireball (min 5d6) I would assume that all plant vegetation in the area of effect would perish thus making it an entangle free zone. now the forest or the city are more troublematic. Now on another thing. Spells with duration of days. If a spell is cast with a duration of 7 days is the spell slot used to cast it free to be used for the next 3fc while at the same time keeping the spell? (considering it was not used in the last 3fc)
templer10 07-06-07, 03:33 PM	Question about obscuring mist - correct me if iam wrong but when the spell is casted ther is only 2 possibly situations - eitehr someone is in the mist and have total concealment against anyone more then 5 feet away (and concealment for 5 feet) - and that someone also have total concealment against him (since the guy in the mist cant see) OR you are outside of the mist and it dont apply - there is no such thing - as far as i know - as being on the "EDGE of the mist" - right?
TelinArtho 07-06-07, 03:39 PM	Now on another thing. Spells with duration of days. If a spell is cast with a duration of 7 days is the spell slot used to cast it free to be used for the next 3fc while at the same time keeping the spell? (considering it was not used in the last 3fc) The simple answer is no - no spell effects or prebuffs carry over between 3FCs. If we allowed this - picture the following: A psychic warrior finds he has 30pps left over after his last fight. As a condition to his tactics, he asks to buff all his weapons with dissolving weapon. On his next fight, he now has his complete complement of PPs for the fight AND all of his weapons prebuffed with a power. (Just an example - replace it with any number of powers or spells with long duration or even just discharge duration and it can be very very nasty).
TelinArtho 07-06-07, 03:41 PM	Question about obscuring mist - correct me if iam wrong but when the spell is casted ther is only 2 possibly situations - eitehr someone is in the mist and have total concealment against anyone more then 5 feet away (and concealment for 5 feet) - and that someone also have total concealment against him (since the guy in the mist cant see) OR you are outside of the mist and it dont apply - there is no such thing - as far as i know - as being on the "EDGE of the mist" - right? If you are 5ft from each other and at least one of you is in the mist - you both have concealment. If you are more than 5ft from each other and at least one of you is in the mist - you both have total concealment. I should note that this seems to be in disagreement with Zevox's post - so this may be an issue up for discussion.
SoulLord 07-06-07, 03:53 PM	The simple answer is no - no spell effects or prebuffs carry over between 3FCs. If we allowed this - picture the following: A psychic warrior finds he has 30pps left over after his last fight. As a condition to his tactics, he asks to buff all his weapons with dissolving weapon. On his next fight, he now has his complete complement of PPs for the fight AND all of his weapons prebuffed with a power. (Just an example - replace it with any number of powers or spells with long duration or even just discharge duration and it can be very very nasty). ok I see your point so I take it that spells with a duration of permanent should also be recast for each 3fc to avoid the exact same situation you described right?
templer10 07-06-07, 03:55 PM	If you are 5ft from each other and at least one of you is in the mist - you both have concealment. If you are more than 5ft from each other and at least one of you is in the mist - you both have total concealment. I should note that this seems to be in disagreement with Zevox's post - so this may be an issue up for discussion. As far as i understand it unless a majority rule disagree with me - you cant be on an EDGE of the mist - you acn only be in it or out of it with all the assosiated benefits/penelties.
TelinArtho 07-06-07, 04:47 PM	ok I see your point so I take it that spells with a duration of permanent should also be recast for each 3fc to avoid the exact same situation you described right? Well - if something is made permanent with permanency - that would last - but it would also not be restored if dispelled. I guess I need to know more about what you are looking at if it is a special type of spell (such as a permanent spell).
MindWandererB 07-06-07, 05:36 PM	If you are 5ft from each other and at least one of you is in the mist - you both have concealment. If you are more than 5ft from each other and at least one of you is in the mist - you both have total concealment. I should note that this seems to be in disagreement with Zevox's post - so this may be an issue up for discussion. The general rule is: To determine whether your target has concealment from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target’s square passes through a square or border that provides concealment, the target has concealment.http://www.hwx.it/coco/coco.php;v=1;map=arena;a=Name,M,12,34;b= Name,M,20,34;o=Effect,9,33,4;los=20,34,1 2,34,3 So when Red looks at Blue, Blue has no concealment, because Red gets to choose a point on his east edge that passes through no fog. But Red has concealment from blue. Oddly, if Red were Large, he'd technically only need one square of his space to be in the fog to benefit from concealment. (Note that this doesn't work for total concealment, because it has a different definition [based on LOS] to determine it.)
SoulLord 07-06-07, 06:04 PM	Well the thing I was thinking at first was Contingency that has a duration of days. the thing is casting a contingency is very very similar to crafting a scroll or creating a powerstone in what the coco and the 3fc is concerned. we don't ask crafters to spend the spells.ppt etc. for the scrolls,powerstones and the like. and then have them unavailable for the 3FC. I don't see why it should be different for the contingency spells
Zevox 07-06-07, 06:23 PM	Well the thing I was thinking at first was Contingency that has a duration of days. the thing is casting a contingency is very very similar to crafting a scroll or creating a powerstone in what the coco and the 3fc is concerned. we don't ask crafters to spend the spells.ppt etc. for the scrolls,powerstones and the like. and then have them unavailable for the 3FC. I don't see why it should be different for the contingency spells That would be because if we allowed spells with such a duration to be prebuffed like that, they're basically free spells/powers. Theres no reason to give gladiators free spells - if you want the benefit of a contingency, you're going to need to cast it like any other spell. Else theres no reason not to use it every single cycle and no drawback to prebuffing it, is there? (Okay, for casters the expensive focus is a drawback, but it isn't consumed in the spell so its only a one-time expense, and the psionic version only costs a meager 15 xp.) Plus if you consider other spells/powers with such a duration (deeper darkness, dissolving weapon/claw, etc) you could get many of them for free. I'd say just be happy you run no risk of running out of the duration on the spell in mid-cycle. The crafting thing is another story entirely, since out-of-cycle its being done entirely separate from combat and costs money, and in-cycle its using up a free action and costs money. Besides, if we forced those in-cycle to use up such, no one would ever do it. Zevox
hogarth 07-06-07, 07:37 PM	The simple answer is no - no spell effects or prebuffs carry over between 3FCs. If we allowed this - picture the following: A psychic warrior finds he has 30pps left over after his last fight. As a condition to his tactics, he asks to buff all his weapons with dissolving weapon. What about spells with a permanent duration such as Explosive Runes or Animate Dead -- are those required to be cast "in cycle"? Would Explosive Runes last more than 1 3FC since it has permanent duration? I know that Polymorph Any Object is an exception.
Zevox 07-06-07, 07:59 PM	What about spells with a permanent duration such as Explosive Runes or Animate Dead -- are those required to be cast "in cycle"? Would Explosive Runes last more than 1 3FC since it has permanent duration? I know that Polymorph Any Object is an exception. Permanent spells are indeed another story. They do carry over between cycles, since by their very nature they never end. There wouldn't be much point to many of them if they didn't (whats the point of doing a quest for an animate dead ally that will only last 2 fights? Or of casting Continual Flame instead of just Light? Or of making your See Invisibility permanent at a high xp and gp cost if it just goes away after a few fights?). Aside from endlessly renewable things like at-will SLAs, they're the only thing that carries over between cycles (PAO being the exception to that, as you observed). Zevox
templer10 07-06-07, 08:15 PM	NM
SoulLord 07-07-07, 12:19 AM	That would be because if we allowed spells with such a duration to be prebuffed like that, they're basically free spells/powers. Theres no reason to give gladiators free spells - if you want the benefit of a contingency, you're going to need to cast it like any other spell. Else theres no reason not to use it every single cycle and no drawback to prebuffing it, is there? (Okay, for casters the expensive focus is a drawback, but it isn't consumed in the spell so its only a one-time expense, and the psionic version only costs a meager 15 xp.) Plus if you consider other spells/powers with such a duration (deeper darkness, dissolving weapon/claw, etc) you could get many of them for free. I'd say just be happy you run no risk of running out of the duration on the spell in mid-cycle. The crafting thing is another story entirely, since out-of-cycle its being done entirely separate from combat and costs money, and in-cycle its using up a free action and costs money. Besides, if we forced those in-cycle to use up such, no one would ever do it. Zevox well consider you can only have 1 active contingency on yourself.
Zevox 07-07-07, 02:09 AM	well consider you can only have 1 active contingency on yourself. Thats true, but doesn't change the fact that allowing it to be cast that way would be giving you two free spells effectively, and that there are other spells with multiple day or simply indefinite (dissolving weapon/claw) durations that would have to be allowed for free. Consider also that spells with 1 hour/level durations when cast at CL 13+ and extended would then in theory be able to be cast the day before your cycle starts, and therefor gotten for free, if such were allowed, as well. Definitely way too abusable an option to allow, if you ask me. Zevox
SoulLord 07-07-07, 11:26 AM	the thing is if its not allowed its a big nerf to the spell why memorize it at all and waste a 6th level spell for the contingency and your stored spell when you can just quicken a spell and have almost the same result at a much cheaper price. I mean is a contingency nerf really necessary? I would say to just treat it like we treat scroll and powerstone crafting
Erithmu 07-07-07, 11:41 AM	It isn't that we are nerfing contingency ... it is the flood gates that open if we allow it. It is a balance issue. Heck we have written that Poly Any Object must be recast every 3FC and that thing can be made permanent. SoulLord I ask that you look at it from the other angles and not as Contingency as an individual target for the nerf. I am sure that you would not want some Psy Warrior taking the 'day' off and burning his pps too Dissolving weapon his entire array of weapons. He just walks in with about 20d6 worth of damage on a variety of weapons: thats not fair to the first person he fights and trickles down to his 2nd and 3rd fights as he has more pp available. Contingency is still a strong spell in that it requires no action (not even your swift/immediate) on the caster's part. I know that my caster is still going to pick up the spell as I plan to possibly use it as a prebuff for my 2nd or 3rd fights for bonus spells that I have. It works basically as a quicken+rapid for my summons without the boosted Spell level. There are still good uses for it. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by 'treating it just like Powerstone/scroll crafting' ... care to clarify?
Zevox 07-07-07, 11:47 AM	I certainly wouldn't say its a nerf, SoulLord. Contingencies aren't generally going to be going off on your turn, which is when you can cast quickened spells, which means they're far more likely to save your life than a quickened spell is. Quickened spells can also be at maximum only fifth level due to the level+4 it costs to prepare one, and they can't be even that high for some time after you get contingency, while contingencies have no such restriction on the level of the spell. You don't need to spend a feat to prepare a contingency, unlike a quickened spell. I know I fully intend to use Contingencies with my Psion, Istima, once he gets that power, even though he'll also get quicken power later and has a smaller selection of powers than any wizard does of spells. Plus, as I said, allowing such a thing would open the door for from pretty terrible abuses, and to be honest I think it would be abusive (less abusive than other options this would set the precedent for, but abusive none the less) to allow a caster to prepare a contingency for free like that. And theres certainly no reason to equate it with crafting, since casting spells and crafting items are two entirely different activities with vastly different results. Sorry SoulLord, but I just can't see any good reason to allow Contingencies and other such spells to be prepared for free like this, but I do see many good reasons not to allow it. Zevox
SoulLord 07-08-07, 01:42 AM	well considering it would open other things for abuse ill drop my point on the issue. just a few clarifications. contingencies have no such restriction on the level of the spell my caster is still going to pick up the spell as I plan to possibly use it as a prebuff for my 2nd or 3rd fights for bonus spells that I have. It works basically as a quicken+rapid for my summons without the boosted Spell level. The spell to be brought into effect by the contingency must be one that affects your person and be of a spell level no higher than one-third your caster level (rounded down, maximum 6th level).
lonewolf 07-08-07, 10:15 AM	I´d like to raise a few questions that may or not come up in the following weeks: How does Blink interact with ghosts? Has a blinking character a miss chance against a manifested ghost? What about the other way around? Which of the ghosts AC(material or ethereal) counts against attacks from a blinking character? Is a manifested ghost flatfooted against a blinking character and does a blinking charakter counts as invisible for attacks against a manifested ghost? Can a ghost stay ethereal without facing the delay penalty if facing a blinking foe? And even more strange: What happens if a ghost starts blinking himself?
templer10 07-08-07, 01:16 PM	hey - Anyone wants to be a miniquest lord next week - Elrick flamebrother wants to find a new handle animal ally - an elite dire wolf (since i really like things that trip).
Sjiggie 07-08-07, 01:28 PM	I can take that one if you want. If you have some rp ideas pm me with them and I'll try to use that for the MQ -Sjiggie
templer10 07-08-07, 01:33 PM	I can take that one if you want. If you have some rp ideas pm me with them and I'll try to use that for the MQ -Sjiggie sure thanks.
MindWandererB 07-08-07, 03:25 PM	I´d like to raise a few questions that may or not come up in the following weeks: How does Blink interact with ghosts? Has a blinking character a miss chance against a manifested ghost? What about the other way around? Which of the ghosts AC(material or ethereal) counts against attacks from a blinking character? Is a manifested ghost flatfooted against a blinking character and does a blinking charakter counts as invisible for attacks against a manifested ghost? Can a ghost stay ethereal without facing the delay penalty if facing a blinking foe? And even more strange: What happens if a ghost starts blinking himself?Fun question! A blinking character using a ghost touch weapon has no chance of missing a manifested ghost. Whether the blinker strikes in the material or the ethereal is irrelevant, as the ghost exists on both. If said ghost is not manifested, then it's treated like any other ethereal creature, and the blinker has a 20% miss chance from blinking into the material at the moment of attack. If the ghost is manifested, and the attacker does not have a ghost touch weapon, then you have to make 2 checks. First, there's a 20% chance that the blinker, attempting to attack the ethereal ghost, will blink into the material and hit that one instead. Second, if the attacker is using a magic weapon, it has only a 50% chance of affecting an incorporeal target. AC would be based on which plane the blinker happens to be on at the time. Since a ghost, manifested or not, can see onto the material, it would not be flat-footed. Nor would any ethereal creature. An unmanifested ghost is not on the material plane, and thus, not in the arena. The delay penalty (cumulative version) would still kick in. Spells that interact with the ethereal plane do not function when cast on the ethereal plane. I'm not sure about a manifested ghost using blink--presumably, it would be on the ethereal 100% of the time, and also on the material 50% of the time, effectively continually manifesting and unmanifesting. That's debatable, though--the spell could simply fail because the ghost is partly ethereal, and it doesn't work on ethereal targets.
NiQil 07-08-07, 03:32 PM	Fun question! A blinking character using a ghost touch weapon has no chance of missing a manifested ghost. Whether the blinker strikes in the material or the ethereal is irrelevant, as the ghost exists on both. If said ghost is not manifested, then it's treated like any other ethereal creature, and the blinker has a 20% miss chance from blinking into the material at the moment of attack. If the ghost is manifested, and the attacker does not have a ghost touch weapon, then you have to make 2 checks. First, there's a 20% chance that the blinker, attempting to attack the ethereal ghost, will blink into the material and hit that one instead. Second, if the attacker is using a magic weapon, it has only a 50% chance of affecting an incorporeal target. AC would be based on which plane the blinker happens to be on at the time. Since a ghost, manifested or not, can see onto the material, it would not be flat-footed. Nor would any ethereal creature. An unmanifested ghost is not on the material plane, and thus, not in the arena. The delay penalty (cumulative version) would still kick in. Spells that interact with the ethereal plane do not function when cast on the ethereal plane. I'm not sure about a manifested ghost using blink--presumably, it would be on the ethereal 100% of the time, and also on the material 50% of the time, effectively continually manifesting and unmanifesting. That's debatable, though--the spell could simply fail because the ghost is partly ethereal, and it doesn't work on ethereal targets. Since yer in the question answering mood...here's one from me: How much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?
lonewolf 07-08-07, 03:38 PM	You answered most of my questions, but you missed one important: Does the ghost have a miss chance when attacking a blinking enemy with spells and/or attacks? An unmanifested ghost is not on the material plane, and thus, not in the arena. The delay penalty (cumulative version) would still kick in. I´d like to point out that if this rule is taken (very) literaly, a blinking character spends the half of each round out of the arena and should also be affected by the commulative delay rule. I am not arguing that it should be this way, I am merely pointing out that the current rule could be interpreted that way and it should maybe be clarified.
MindWandererB 07-08-07, 05:29 PM	You answered most of my questions, but you missed one important: Does the ghost have a miss chance when attacking a blinking enemy with spells and/or attacks? I´d like to point out that if this rule is taken (very) literaly, a blinking character spends the half of each round out of the arena and should also be affected by the commulative delay rule. I am not arguing that it should be this way, I am merely pointing out that the current rule could be interpreted that way and it should maybe be clarified. Yeah, I thought of that, and opted not to bring it up. I'll let someone else voice an opinion. As for a ghost attacking a blinker, its touch and gaze attacks will work 100% of the time if it's manifested, as they affect the ethereal and material simultaneously (although the attack roll and damage will be affected by which plane the target is on; the ghost will choose whichever is most advantageous as the 80% chance and the worse one as the 20% chance). Weapon attacks are more complicated: if it's using an ethereal, nonmagical weapon or a material, ghost touch weapon, it has a 20% miss chance; if it's using an ethereal, magic weapon, it has a 20% miss chance followed, if it fails, with a 50% chance for the damage to be ignored. If it's not manifested, then it would have the 20% miss chance that any ethereal creature would have.
Yitzi 07-08-07, 05:59 PM	How much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood? However much wood a woodchuck could chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood, of course.
TheMagister 07-08-07, 06:21 PM	WizO! Everybody hide the beer! :D Nice to have you stop in!
NiQil 07-08-07, 06:24 PM	WizO! Everybody hide the beer! :D Nice to have you stop in! The beer? Hell....hide the munchies. I've heard about Hutt makin' off with the Doritos....
NiQil 07-08-07, 07:54 PM	Alright...I'm making another attempt to make a melee-based Dragon Disciple. I give you War Machine. His final class progression will look as follows: Barbarian 2/Dragon Disciple 10/Half-Dragon Paragon 3/Sorcerer 2/Wilder 3 Feedback, critiques, and suggestions appreciated.
MindWandererB 07-08-07, 09:33 PM	Alright...I'm making another attempt to make a melee-based Dragon Disciple. I give you War Machine. His final class progression will look as follows: Barbarian 2/Dragon Disciple 10/Half-Dragon Paragon 3/Sorcerer 2/Wilder 3 Feedback, critiques, and suggestions appreciated. Not sure what's up with that spell section, but otherwise, I can't complain much--looks a lot like Gakhnalak except with Wilder over Orc Paragon. If you can figure out how to lose that second Sorcerer level, though, I'd do it. It really doesn't buy you anything until you get a couple of Half-Dragon Paragon levels at ECL 17 at best. Also: with a 10 Cha, you're not going to be able to do much with Wilder unless you put your level 4 attribute point there (which doesn't seem like a hot idea if you can avoid it). I also wonder why Wilder over Psion or PsiWar if you're only getting those two powers? Grease isn't augmentable, and Force Screen only gets you an extra +1 AC at ML 5. I could see it with Vigor, but otherwise the improved power selection of the psion, or the combat powers of the PsiWar, seem better.
NiQil 07-08-07, 10:09 PM	Not sure what's up with that spell section, but otherwise, I can't complain much--looks a lot like Gakhnalak except with Wilder over Orc Paragon. If you can figure out how to lose that second Sorcerer level, though, I'd do it. It really doesn't buy you anything until you get a couple of Half-Dragon Paragon levels at ECL 17 at best. Also: with a 10 Cha, you're not going to be able to do much with Wilder unless you put your level 4 attribute point there (which doesn't seem like a hot idea if you can avoid it). I also wonder why Wilder over Psion or PsiWar if you're only getting those two powers? Grease isn't augmentable, and Force Screen only gets you an extra +1 AC at ML 5. I could see it with Vigor, but otherwise the improved power selection of the psion, or the combat powers of the PsiWar, seem better. The spell section? Do you mean the grayed out first level spells? That's because I only have a 10 Cha, so I can't yet cast first level spells. That will change at 4th. The reason for the wilder levels is multiple. As my Cha starts to increase, I will be able to boost my touch AC via Elude Touch. That is one of the two primary reason for the Wilder levels. The other is Force Screen. By having Force Screen as a Wilder Power, I can Wild Surge it so that it will for sure last a whole battle. Grease is there more for it's utilitarian use than anything else. It helps with grapples, it can make people drop things, it can knock them down, etc. As my Cha increases, I will get more pp out of Wilder, which will give me more options with Grease. And with the Sorcerer levels, don't forget about the bonus spells from Dragon Disciple. There is a reason I have True Strike in there. It has no arcane spell failure due to no somatic components, and as I get more spells per day with extra DrD levels, I can use it more and more often. Same with Feather Fall. It's nice to have when you are flying (either with Winged Boots or DrD wings) if you get knocked out of the sky for some reason. And, again, no somatic components. The spells and powers aren't really meant to do anything more than help with small weaknesses. The biggest one will be Force Screen, which I will pick up with my first level of Wilder next level. Hard to come by shield bonuses to AC wielding a two-handed weapon. As for the 2nd Sorcerer level....that has to be there to avoid multi-class penalties.
Yitzi 07-08-07, 11:01 PM	If "a" has total concealment (or concealment+hiding) from "b", and "b" attempts to move into "a"'s square, what happens?
Erithmu 07-08-07, 11:22 PM	I gotta second MWB's options on the Wilder levels ... Just how high do you expect your cha to get? I know that DrD only gives +2 but that is only at 10th level .. which would infer that your going to either spent more level up points in cha or buy a cloak of cha (which means your not buying a cloak of resistance). Consider this option: Barb2/DrD10/HDP 3/Sorc1/Psion2/Ftr2(could do PW 2 alternatively) This would net you 5 utility powers from psion (FS, Grease, +3 others) you pick up 3 more feats which could do the following: - Speed of thought + 2 more - Psi weapon, Deep Impact, Power attack (still one of my fav combos) - Improved unarmed strike, Deflect arrows, +1 You will still need to drop one point in cha early if you want to cast sorc spells before lvl 15, but you do have some better ability to mess around with utility skills. I guess I just don't see your cha getting high enough to warrant the dip of 3 levels into wilder. I mean sure you will have 11pp + cha mod (under 5 at the most) which leaves you with about 5 a fight and grease on a save of DC 11? it really isn't worth it. Most if your fights you will need to find a way to close distance fast anyways should they shouldn't take more that 20 rounds. *shrugs* ... YMMV A question and an error: Lightning reflexes? (Q:first your taking it? E:second it looks like you already have it added into your stats) most reflex saves deal HP damage, something that your guy should not have an issue with (ie low HP). With the trip focus, you can easily choose to power attack about 4 and still have a similar to-hit and just up the damage. Sorry this is kinda ... verbal vomit ... so I apologize if it doesn't make 100% sense.
hogarth 07-08-07, 11:44 PM	If "a" has total concealment (or concealment+hiding) from "b", and "b" attempts to move into "a"'s square, what happens? I think the unofficial ruling is that person "a" can avoid person "b" if he/she wants to (since allies can move through occupied spaces and "a" can treat "b" like an ally). So you can't find an invisible opponent by running around really fast (it's been tried several times).
Zevox 07-08-07, 11:51 PM	I think the unofficial ruling is that person "a" can avoid person "b" if he/she wants to (since allies can move through occupied spaces and "a" can treat "b" like an ally). So you can't find an invisible opponent by running around really fast (it's been tried several times). Also note that characters can choose to avoid an overrun unless the foe has improved overrun, which would seem to indicate this should be the case as well. Zevox
Yitzi 07-09-07, 12:03 AM	Now for another complication: Say that "b" also has total concealment from "a". Can "a" still avoid "b"? And either way, if "a" does not avoid "b" (by choice or not), does "a" detect "b" as a result of being bumped into?
NiQil 07-09-07, 12:07 AM	I gotta second MWB's options on the Wilder levels ... Just how high do you expect your cha to get? I know that DrD only gives +2 but that is only at 10th level .. which would infer that your going to either spent more level up points in cha or buy a cloak of cha (which means your not buying a cloak of resistance). Consider this option: Barb2/DrD10/HDP 3/Sorc1/Psion2/Ftr2(could do PW 2 alternatively) This would net you 5 utility powers from psion (FS, Grease, +3 others) you pick up 3 more feats which could do the following: - Speed of thought + 2 more - Psi weapon, Deep Impact, Power attack (still one of my fav combos) - Improved unarmed strike, Deflect arrows, +1 You will still need to drop one point in cha early if you want to cast sorc spells before lvl 15, but you do have some better ability to mess around with utility skills. I guess I just don't see your cha getting high enough to warrant the dip of 3 levels into wilder. I mean sure you will have 11pp + cha mod (under 5 at the most) which leaves you with about 5 a fight and grease on a save of DC 11? it really isn't worth it. Most if your fights you will need to find a way to close distance fast anyways should they shouldn't take more that 20 rounds. *shrugs* ... YMMV A question and an error: Lightning reflexes? (Q:first your taking it? E:second it looks like you already have it added into your stats) most reflex saves deal HP damage, something that your guy should not have an issue with (ie low HP). With the trip focus, you can easily choose to power attack about 4 and still have a similar to-hit and just up the damage. Sorry this is kinda ... verbal vomit ... so I apologize if it doesn't make 100% sense. First, to your question...yes, Lighting Reflexes. All of the classes I have scheduled have poor Reflex saves. I realize it's the worst of the 3, but I will still need the boost, methinks. And no, I didn't already add it in. What you see there is the bonus for my familiar. As to what you have recommended....whatever class I have there is only going to have very limited pp, regardless of what I do. So having power options isn't really a big deal to this build. If I was going to put any other class in place of Wilder, it would be PsyWar. The problem there is that all of the durations of my powers get shorter, due to lack of Wild Surge (meaning that when I take the first level of Wilder or PsyWar, it's 20 rds vs 10, 30 vs 20 and then 50 vs 30). I also lose pp, meaning I have 1 more power, but less pp to use them with. In exchange I get 1 more hp (d6 vs d8) per level, and 2 bonus feats. I lose Will save and gain Fort save. I'm not sure if the trade is worth it.
Macbrea 07-09-07, 08:18 AM	Now for another complication: Say that "b" also has total concealment from "a". Can "a" still avoid "b"? And either way, if "a" does not avoid "b" (by choice or not), does "a" detect "b" as a result of being bumped into? If the question is darkness (concealment 20%) vs Obscuring mist (Concealment to 5ft radius + total concealment beyond 5ft) then as soon as they get within 5ft of each other they have a chance of spotting each other. It should also be noted to the person in both effects that they have entered an effect. It is more important to the person in Obscuring mist to notice that they have suddenly added darkness to their obscuring mist. The person in darkness can see they are about to enter the mist. It helps in allow the person in the mist to actively know to try and spot the person in the darkness. Though, in this particular case, the person in the mist is readying actions, I am sure. If the person in the mist is Invisible and the person in the darkness is pretty much invisible you have a problem. Since, neither will draw AoO for entering each others square. They will pass by each other in the night like two lonely lovers. :P This is why we have the delay penalty which includes such actions as highlighting the square the hider is in, Epic wizard dispelling the entire arena, dust falling from the ceiling covering two invisible individuals. Generally, you get to take the flak for how hard you want to make your delay penalty. Templar10 will argue admittedly that epic dispelling us only really harms Lady Liara vs Yorick because he can cast darkness at will. This should be noted that his +2 LA accounts for his ability to cast spells at will and as a result he has suffered the loss of 2HD to be able to do that ability. As a pitlord, I start with a scaled delay penalty and work my way up. Normally, the crowd on round 10 points out the general area of the arena. On round 20, dust falls and covers the invisibles or I light up there squares and then I go to a more drastic method of dispel. Delay penalty has always been controversial because you can go to far in one direction or the other. I believe at one point we had the missile deflect archer monk vs dwarf with tower shield. The delay penalty was to put them in a 20ft box. This resulted in a huge argument that the delay penalty was extreme. Use your judgment on what is fair, I am one of the least argumentative of the players on the board but I will argue if something is totally unfair.
templer10 07-09-07, 08:38 AM	If the question is darkness (concealment 20%) vs Obscuring mist (Concealment to 5ft radius + total concealment beyond 5ft) then as soon as they get within 5ft of each other they have a chance of spotting each other. It should also be noted to the person in both effects that they have entered an effect. It is more important to the person in Obscuring mist to notice that they have suddenly added darkness to their obscuring mist. The person in darkness can see they are about to enter the mist. It helps in allow the person in the mist to actively know to try and spot the person in the darkness. Though, in this particular case, the person in the mist is readying actions, I am sure. If the person in the mist is Invisible and the person in the darkness is pretty much invisible you have a problem. Since, neither will draw AoO for entering each others square. They will pass by each other in the night like two lonely lovers. :P This is why we have the delay penalty which includes such actions as highlighting the square the hider is in, Epic wizard dispelling the entire arena, dust falling from the ceiling covering two invisible individuals. Generally, you get to take the flak for how hard you want to make your delay penalty. Templar10 will argue admittedly that epic dispelling us only really harms Lady Liara vs Yorick because he can cast darkness at will. This should be noted that his +2 LA accounts for his ability to cast spells at will and as a result he has suffered the loss of 2HD to be able to do that ability. As a pitlord, I start with a scaled delay penalty and work my way up. Normally, the crowd on round 10 points out the general area of the arena. On round 20, dust falls and covers the invisibles or I light up there squares and then I go to a more drastic method of dispel. Delay penalty has always been controversial because you can go to far in one direction or the other. I believe at one point we had the missile deflect archer monk vs dwarf with tower shield. The delay penalty was to put them in a 20ft box. This resulted in a huge argument that the delay penalty was extreme. Use your judgment on what is fair, I am one of the least argumentative of the players on the board but I will argue if something is totally unfair. I will argue if we both get dispelled - but more importently becuase i did the obscuring mist not to avoid combat but to encourage it - since i have no chance in hell of spotting him with darkness (just after snipe and even then ill have to be very lucky) obscuring mist force him to come to me to have even a fighting chance. p.s - in case i do somehow manage to spot him - note that he needs to break lien of sight to rehide and i do have supirior movement.
Macbrea 07-09-07, 08:52 AM	Laying down obscuring mist doesn't encourage combat. An archer can just fire random shots into the mist. Concealment isn't cover. Your choice to cast a spell which results in your delaying more then 10 rounds without any meaningful interaction with the outside world will result in a delay for you. Yorick is of the advantage of being able to shoot at your mist in a hope to pick the right square.
hogarth 07-09-07, 08:53 AM	I will argue if we both get dispelled - but more importently becuase i did the obscuring mist not to avoid combat but to encourage it - since i have no chance in hell of spotting him with darkness (just after snipe and even then ill have to be very lucky) obscuring mist force him to come to me to have even a fighting chance. Ah...nothing beats a good, ol'-fashioned "I'm not delaying, YOU'RE delaying!" debate. My personal favourite is watching MitzaVolchenko argue that burrowing ten miles below the Earth's crust counts as "actively searching for your opponent". (Just kidding -- ;))
Macbrea 07-09-07, 08:58 AM	It is a simple arguement. Is there 10 rounds without any meaningful interaction between the two characters. What is causing the effect. It must be gotten rid of in some fashion in order to start having meaningful interaction. In this case, clearly both characters actions are resulting in no engagement. I would seriously argue against Yorick running to his death inside an obscuring mist. He has ranged tactics and 90 bolts. If he cannot see a person in the mist he is allowed to every 10 round simply fire a bolt into the mist and guess which square the person is in. Failure to do anything for more the 10 rounds is a delay and should result in penalty. Just because Templar10 made a character without a spot check, doesn't mean I should be penalized for his inability to see a hide/sneaker.
hogarth 07-09-07, 09:03 AM	I would seriously argue against Yorick running to his death inside an obscuring mist. He has ranged tactics and 90 bolts. If he cannot see a person in the mist he is allowed to every 10 round simply fire a bolt into the mist and guess which square the person is in. Failure to do anything for more the 10 rounds is a delay and should result in penalty. For the record, I agree -- firing bolts periodically into an obscuring mist is actively engaging the opponent.
templer10 07-09-07, 09:50 AM	It is a simple arguement. Is there 10 rounds without any meaningful interaction between the two characters. What is causing the effect. It must be gotten rid of in some fashion in order to start having meaningful interaction. In this case, clearly both characters actions are resulting in no engagement. I would seriously argue against Yorick running to his death inside an obscuring mist. He has ranged tactics and 90 bolts. If he cannot see a person in the mist he is allowed to every 10 round simply fire a bolt into the mist and guess which square the person is in. Failure to do anything for more the 10 rounds is a delay and should result in penalty. Just because Templar10 made a character without a spot check, doesn't mean I should be penalized for his inability to see a hide/sneaker. well lets have yitzi just run it and argue later- ill take a loss if i get 1 fairly - hell iam DUE - lol ;) - this girl REALLY wasnt built vs sneaks - and iam not sure what to do about that - iam thinking maybe leadership at 6 and get someone to help who IS good vs sneaks and when i can trade in for an intelligent mount that can do the same.
TelinArtho 07-09-07, 03:18 PM	Okay - so a few members of the CEF are looking for a brave missionlord in a few weeks. The characters are: Sir Valkin (myself), Ephraim and Marcus (Erithmu), and Leif Goldeneye (Sunwolf). The EL of the mission would be 13 and is slated to start at the end of the month (CAPs sent on the 18th, mission to start on the 25th). Any takers? Bumpity, bumpity...
lonewolf 07-09-07, 03:36 PM	Bumpity, bumpity... Im interested. Could you PM me more information about the target of the mission?
Macbrea 07-09-07, 04:58 PM	What really needs to be decided is levels of delay penalty that should be applied. As it stands now, there is nothing that determines the max penalty for delay.
stimpydoda 07-09-07, 06:21 PM	Hey, I have a few questions about paladins and mounts. If I were a 6th lv paladin and took the leadership feat, how could I apply that to my special mount? Could the mount have elite array? Would I take a -2 to my leadership score? Would the mount still be at my maximum leadership score? I was thinking of going for a griffon. Thanks for the help.
MindWandererB 07-09-07, 06:26 PM	Hey, I have a few questions about paladins and mounts. If I were a 6th lv paladin and took the leadership feat, how could I apply that to my special mount? Could the mount have elite array? Would I take a -2 to my leadership score? Would the mount still be at my maximum leadership score? I was thinking of going for a griffon. Thanks for the help. Leadership and class-feature allies are 100% incompatible. You would take the -2 penalty to your Leadership score, and you'd have to choose a different cohort. If you want a griffon, there's a list of alternative special mounts in the DMG (I don't know where).
Sjiggie 07-09-07, 06:28 PM	A 8th-level paladin can have a griffon as his special mount instead of the heavy warhorse. It is the DMG page 204 under the Mounts section. It gets all the goodies from being a special mount but at a slower rate. Check it out.
Zevox 07-09-07, 06:46 PM	Hey, I have a few questions about paladins and mounts. If I were a 6th lv paladin and took the leadership feat, how could I apply that to my special mount? Could the mount have elite array? Would I take a -2 to my leadership score? Would the mount still be at my maximum leadership score? I was thinking of going for a griffon. Thanks for the help. You could use Leadership to get a mount, but as MWB said, it wouldn't be the same creature as your special mount. Your special mount is the same as a basic version of its race plus the benefits for being a special mount (so no, no elite array, customizing of feats/skills it already has, etc). A leadership cohort uses 25 point buy and is completely customizable. You could have both a leadership cohort mount and a special mount, though the special mount would impose the normal -2 to your score, and as normal the leadership cohort would impose ally penalties while the special mount would not. Theres a list of unusual leadership cohort options, many of which would make good mounts, here. One of my own characters, Mithos Durrol, is going to be using Leadership to get a Pegasus Psychic Warrior mount. Alternate Paladin Special Mounts are on page 204 of the 3.5 DMG. A brief breakdown by Paladin level at which they're available: ECL 6: Celestial Heavy Warhorse, Dire Wolf, Hippogriff, Large Monstrous Spider, Large Shark, Unicorn, Celestial Warpony, Dire Bat, Dire Badger, Dire Weasel, Giant Lizard. ECL 7: Dire Boar, Dire Wolverine, Giant Eagle, Giant Owl, Pegasus, Rhinoceros, Sea Cat. ECL 8: Griffon, Dire Lion. Essentially, if you use one of these alternate mounts, you treat the minimum level they're available as the start level for determining what benefits they get instead of level 5 as normal. A Paladin with a Dire Lion special mount and a flying leadership mount might actually be pretty fierce - the Dire Lion would make him a powerhouse when foes can't fly away, and the leadership mount would be perfect for getting at those that can. Zevox
Erithmu 07-09-07, 06:53 PM	Actually guys DMG 200 states that you 'can' (through DM approval) combine Leadership and special mount. It basically gives the Special abilities without the bonus HD or NA, or ability score and adds +2 to the ECL of the Cohort. (I have been talking to Stimpy about this over chat lots...)
Yitzi 07-09-07, 07:44 PM	Actually guys DMG 200 states that you 'can' (through DM approval)... Sounds like a use of credits to me.
TelinArtho 07-09-07, 08:56 PM	Since this discussion has come up, I feel it is time to mention that when I asked Cat about the special mounts for paladins, he categorically denied it. He said he might discuss it in the future after things settled down a bit (this of course was back when Sir Valkin was level 6...), but we never did go over it. Allowing them now should definitely be reviewed first - and I would certainly consider this a change to the current allowed rules (because if it was an option before - I certainly would've taken advantage...).
Zevox 07-09-07, 09:04 PM	Telin, as far as I've been aware, its always been allowed. Its part one of the core rule books which our rules say are always allowed unless specified otherwise, and its not mentioned as an optional variant rule (like the combining leadership + special mount), but simply as an extension of the existing PHB rules. Nothing in our rules disallows it, so by the existing rules, its allowed. Hell, Iced's character Solan the Righteous even had a Griffon special mount briefly, during the third week of a mission he was on (he failed and lost the level he needed to have the mount though) - and that was during Cat's time here. I hate to say it man, but even if Cat had an unofficial policy disallowing it, as-is that just doesn't apply. Though I guess it answers why Valkin has never used one (I've long wondered about that). Zevox
MindWandererB 07-09-07, 09:31 PM	Miscommunication alert: Apparently Cat forbade the combination of Leadership with the Special Mount, as Rith described. That seems like a reasonable rule to me. Sounds like you would basically have a Leadership cohort with the Paladin special features (notably Share Spells, Improved Speed, and Spell Resistance) at a cost of +2 LA. That seems like a fair price. In fact, I'd go so far (discussion notwithstanding) as to allow improved familiars to benefit from the same rule. Credits for both applications, of course (probably only 5). Same with any other classes (e.g. shadowdancer) that can have class allies that qualify as cohorts.
stimpydoda 07-09-07, 09:39 PM	But if the paladins mount was made into a leadership cohort, would they have to summon them for the restricted amount of time then?
Scribelords 07-09-07, 09:58 PM	Warning What you find in this sblock may shock and disturb you. It is recommended that younger reader ask their parents permission before opening it. http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x45/Pitlords/Member%20Photos/TheMagister.jpg Now back to your regularly scheduled argument... :D
NiQil 07-09-07, 10:10 PM	Warning What you find in this sblock may shock and disturb you. It is recommended that younger reader ask their parents permission before opening it. http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x45/Pitlords/Member%20Photos/TheMagister.jpg Now back to your regularly scheduled argument... :D :bigeyes: :gah: :noway: :censored: :help: :ghosted: :surrender
Erithmu 07-09-07, 10:24 PM	So wait ... TM is on the right or the left? ... I don't think I will ever be able to take TM seriously anymore ... I just can't see that face getting angry and sarcastic ... I mean really ...
Erithmu 07-09-07, 10:26 PM	In fact, I'd go so far (discussion notwithstanding) as to allow improved familiars to benefit from the same rule. Credits for both applications, of course (probably only 5). Same with any other classes (e.g. shadowdancer) that can have class allies that qualify as cohorts.Unpack this statement for me a bit MWB, part of me thinks that it could smell like cheese abuse ... but I just can't put my finger on it.
Yitzi 07-09-07, 10:46 PM	Can true strike be used to give a pretty much gauranteed win on a disarm attempt (I just got it done on me)? I see no reason in the rules that it wouldn't work, but it still seems cheap.
TheMagister 07-09-07, 10:53 PM	So wait ... TM is on the right or the left? ... I don't think I will ever be able to take TM seriously anymore ... I just can't see that face getting angry and sarcastic ... I mean really ... :rofl: That picture of Reese is just priceless! That is that child's inner being captured in still life and shining free. {wipes a tear} Oh, man. I mean, his momma's giving them a bath right now, and she stepped out of the bathroom for all of twenty seconds, and already I hear water on the tile. Now he's getting a spankin'! {Larissa as soon as illia walks in} "Reesie did it!" {Reese, not even trying to deny it} "Sorry, Mommy!" {illia, disbelieving} "What's my social security card doing in here?!" {shakes head} That's a-my boy... TM
Airwhale 07-09-07, 10:57 PM	Do CL restrictions matter when you are trying to craft things in CoCo? I notice a few people who have crafted ability modifying equipment i don't think they can at 3rd level.
Macbrea 07-09-07, 11:06 PM	CL on magic items isn't a prerequisite. The only time it is considered as such is on items that are written in the following manner.. Ioun stone Moderate varied; CL 12th; Craft Wondrous Item, creator must be 12th level. The bolded section is my highlighting for emphasis.
MindWandererB 07-09-07, 11:09 PM	Do CL restrictions matter when you are trying to craft things in CoCo? I notice a few people who have crafted ability modifying equipment i don't think they can at 3rd level. According to the FAQ, item caster level is not a requirement unless it specifically says so. Example: Pearl of Power: This seemingly normal pearl of average size and luster is a potent aid to all spellcasters who prepare spells (clerics, druids, rangers, paladins, and wizards). Once per day on command, a pearl of power enables the possessor to recall any one spell that she had prepared and then cast. The spell is then prepared again, just as if it had not been cast. The spell must be of a particular level, depending on the pearl. Different pearls exist for recalling one spell per day of each level from 1st through 9th and for the recall of two spells per day (each of a different level, 6th or lower). Strong transmutation; CL 17th; Craft Wondrous Item, creator must be able to cast spells of the spell level to be recalled; Price 1,000 gp (1st), 4,000 gp (2nd), 9,000 gp (3rd), 16,000 gp (4th), 25,000 gp (5th), 36,000 gp (6th), 49,000 gp (7th), 64,000 gp (8th), 81,000 gp (9th), or 70,000 gp (two spells).The first underlined portion is not a requirement; the second is. For combining Shadowdancer shadow with Leadership: since the only things the shadow gains are bonus HD (which, like the paladin mount, would be excluded from the combo), turning immunity, matched alignment, and the ability to communicate with the shadowdancer. So the Leadership version would gain those benefits but have a +2 LA as compared to a normal shadow (so, +5 rather than +3). Probably not worth it, but I see no reason to prohibit it. It would probably be a better option for familiars, like mephits.
Vathelokai 07-09-07, 11:21 PM	:bigeyes: :gah: :noway: :censored: :help: :ghosted: :surrender Yeah, yeah.... your next buddy.
Vathelokai 07-09-07, 11:24 PM	Can true strike be used to give a pretty much gauranteed win on a disarm attempt (I just got it done on me)? I see no reason in the rules that it wouldn't work, but it still seems cheap.Sure can. It's good for other things as well, like adding to the crit-confirm roll. Since truestrike negates concealment, you can even disarm someone in a blacklight if you know where they are located.
NiQil 07-09-07, 11:33 PM	Yeah, yeah.... your next buddy. Heh....not unless you are a Timelord....the last picture of me is over 10 years old. I hate having my picture taken, so it just isn't done anymore.
Erithmu 07-09-07, 11:33 PM	For combining Shadowdancer shadow with Leadership: since the only things the shadow gains are bonus HD (which, like the paladin mount, would be excluded from the combo), turning immunity, matched alignment, and the ability to communicate with the shadowdancer. So the Leadership version would gain those benefits but have a +2 LA as compared to a normal shadow (so, +5 rather than +3). Probably not worth it, but I see no reason to prohibit it. It would probably be a better option for familiars, like mephits.Ok .. so for familiars they still have to be on the Imp Familar list and have an LA listing. So like this couldn't be done with a Lantern Archon since there is no LA...
Zevox 07-10-07, 12:06 AM	Okay, maybe its just the shirt, but does TM look like the crocodile hunter to anyone else? ;) Re: Crafted items - Strangely, we also have a house rule that says that caster levels aren't required for crafting items. Which means that even items which mention "creator must be x level" can be crafted by anyone. Edit: Okay, this is wierd. My PM box says I have a new message, but when I open it, I see only my old ones. Huh... Zevox
Macbrea 07-10-07, 12:22 AM	Should be a message from me.. I will resend.
NiQil 07-10-07, 12:22 AM	Okay, maybe its just the shirt, but does TM look like the crocodile hunter to anyone else? ;) Re: Crafted items - Strangely, we also have a house rule that says that caster levels aren't required for crafting items. Which means that even items which mention "creator must be x level" can be crafted by anyone. Edit: Okay, this is wierd. My PM box says I have a new message, but when I open it, I see only my old ones. Huh... Zevox Not quite...read it again: Q: How does the crafting of magical/psionic items work in CoCo? A: In the item description, just before the feat necessary to craft the item, there is a CL listing. This CL listing is ignored, as per the 3.5 FAQ (this portion is subject to change at a later date, if necessary). Anything listed after the feat needed to make the item is required. You must be able to cast any necessary spells yourself (i.e. you cannot use items or NPC services to do so), and any other requirements (such as creater must be x-level or creater must be x-alignment, etc) must be met.
Vathelokai 07-10-07, 12:24 AM	Re: Crafted items - Strangely, we also have a house rule that says that caster levels aren't required for crafting items. Which means that even items which mention "creator must be x level" can be crafted by anyone.I thought we fixed the wording on that... ? Edit: Okay, this is wierd. My PM box says I have a new message, but when I open it, I see only my old ones. Huh... Zevox I'm having a problem with reloading the main page: doesn't want to update the most recent posts. I sense a maintenance day coming up.
Zevox 07-10-07, 12:26 AM	Not quite...read it again: I was talking about this, actually: Caster level and crafting: the Caster level is not a prerequisite when crafting a magic item. Its listed as a house rule, not a clarification of the FAQ or anything like that. Looks to me like a totally separate rule. Zevox
MindWandererB 07-10-07, 12:29 AM	I was talking about this, actually: Its listed as a house rule, not a clarification of the FAQ or anything like that. Looks to me like a totally separate rule. Zevox That's just an unclear version of what's in the court decisions. I'll go edit it.
stimpydoda 07-10-07, 12:50 AM	But if the paladins mount was made into a leadership cohort, would they have to summon them for the restricted amount of time then? Bump.
Zevox 07-10-07, 12:52 AM	Aw dang, and here I was vaguely hoping I could have Eraca and Ceilia craft some Ioun stones soon :( . Oh well. Reading the edited version, its even more confusing though. It includes Pearls of Power as an example of things which do have a minimum CL, but they're not. And its still listed as a house rule, which its not. Mayhaps just take that out of there and point folks to the FAQ/Court Decisions whenever they ask in the future? Zevox
MindWandererB 07-10-07, 02:16 AM	Aw dang, and here I was vaguely hoping I could have Eraca and Ceilia craft some Ioun stones soon :( . Oh well. Reading the edited version, its even more confusing though. It includes Pearls of Power as an example of things which do have a minimum CL, but they're not. And its still listed as a house rule, which its not. Mayhaps just take that out of there and point folks to the FAQ/Court Decisions whenever they ask in the future? Zevox Well, neither ioun stones nor PoPs have minimum CLs; one has a minimum character level and the other a minimum spell level. Could easily take it out, though. I think it predates that FAQ entry.
lonewolf 07-10-07, 06:42 AM	Its been a long time since I submitted a new character in the ECL3 bracket but I am gonna try my luck again with Korwald. Planned future progression is Fighter1/Cleric3/Prestige Paladin3. The low HP at the start worry me, but I hope to be able to make that up with a high AC. Any suggestions for improvement?
TelinArtho 07-10-07, 07:51 AM	Prestige paladin isn't allowed here - that's a problem for your advancement. Other than that though - he looks solid enough. You do need to provide the basic stats on the light horse and an encumbrance total for both the character and his mount so that speed is easily determined. Any interest in joining the CEF with him?
lonewolf 07-10-07, 08:04 AM	Prestige paladin isn't allowed here - that's a problem for your advancement. Oh :censored: ! Is there any reason why those Prestigious Classes are not allowed if those variant classes and racial Paragon classes are allowed? IMHO they are hardly more powerful. Other than that though - he looks solid enough. You do need to provide the basic stats on the light horse and an encumbrance total for both the character and his mount so that speed is easily determined. I only linked to stats of the light horse to save characters on the sheet since nothing changes from them. I will add the encumbrance though. Any interest in joining the CEF with him? Yes I was planning to. But I want to try him out in the arena first.
Erithmu 07-10-07, 09:22 AM	One of the side notes on the prestigious classes is that you restrict the use of the base classes associated with them. I wanted to use the prestige bard a while back. (You also missed the Bab requirement by one ...)
TelinArtho 07-10-07, 10:16 AM	When advancing a character's monster HD to a point where the size increases, is there an adjustment to the LA? For instance, a sahaugin with 2HD has a LA +2. At 6HD, the sahaugin becomes large - does the LA change? EDIT: Weird... does anyone find it strange that Sahaugins don't have Swim as a class skill?
hogarth 07-10-07, 10:28 AM	When advancing a character's monster HD to a point where the size increases, is there an adjustment to the LA? I think Sauro's opinion is "no, the LA stays the same" since he intended to have an advanced Yaurl as a leadership ally. I have no personal opinion on the issue. EDIT: Weird... does anyone find it strange that Sahaugins don't have Swim as a class skill? Yes, I find that strange.
lonewolf 07-10-07, 10:31 AM	One of the side notes on the prestigious classes is that you restrict the use of the base classes associated with them. I wanted to use the prestige bard a while back. (You also missed the Bab requirement by one ...) Actually I qrote only the planned future progression, so with Phrenic Human Cleric1/Fighter1/Cleric3 I do have the required BAB. So do you think I have a chance to convince the community to allow those Prestigious Classes or should I adjust the character for another progression(maybe something like Cleric1/Paladin2/Clericxx)? :rolleyes:
lonewolf 07-10-07, 10:32 AM	When advancing a character's monster HD to a point where the size increases, is there an adjustment to the LA? For instance, a sahaugin with 2HD has a LA +2. At 6HD, the sahaugin becomes large - does the LA change? RAW there is no reason it should change. If that is desireable or not is another question.[/QUOTE]
TelinArtho 07-10-07, 10:36 AM	Actually I qrote only the planned future progression, so with Phrenic Human Cleric1/Fighter1/Cleric3 I do have the required BAB. So do you think I have a chance to convince the community to allow those Prestigious Classes or should I adjust the character for another progression(maybe something like Cleric1/Paladin2/Clericxx)? :rolleyes: Well - if you want them added - it would certainly be a thing to ask MWB about to add to the Council to be added. I'm not sure of the viability of them - especially since I don't know where they appear and if they are open source material.
lonewolf 07-10-07, 10:41 AM	You can find them here (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedPrestige.html). and they are just as open Source as the racial paragon classes. And yeah, I will take this to the Council.
Erithmu 07-10-07, 10:53 AM	When dealing with a monster that has Power attack and a natural weapon that gains 1.5*Str to damage ... do/can you treat that natural weapon as if it were wielded with two hands and getting the 2:1 return on power attack?
UserNamer 07-10-07, 10:55 AM	I saw some characters with wands that are not listed in the standard list in the SRD, without having paid credits for them. Is this allowed now or did I just miss the links? If it is allowed, can you buy any wand?
hogarth 07-10-07, 10:55 AM	When dealing with a monster that has Power attack and a natural weapon that gains 1.5*Str to damage ... do/can you treat that natural weapon as if it were wielded with two hands and getting the 2:1 return on power attack? I don't think so -- all natural weapons are treated equally as far as Power Attack, Weapon Finesse, etc. are treated (as far as I know).
TelinArtho 07-10-07, 11:00 AM	I think since your horn gets 1.5 Str bonus you count it as 2 handed ... and thus get the 2:1 return on Power attack, you also forgot the bonus to damage from the smite This is incorrect. Just because a natural weapon deals 1.5x Str bonus does not mean that they get to treat the natural weapon as a two-handed weapon for power attack. Does a dragon with Power Attack add twice the number subtracted from attack rolls to damage rolls when making a tail slap? No. While it shares some mathematical similarity to a two-handed weapon, the tail slap (or any other natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls) doesn't gain any other benefits applied to the use of a two-handed weapon
TelinArtho 07-10-07, 11:01 AM	I saw some characters with wands that are not listed in the standard list in the SRD, without having paid credits for them. Is this allowed now or did I just miss the links? If it is allowed, can you buy any wand? That is a fairly recent change. Yes - all wands are allowed without credits as long as the CL is under your ECL. If you want a wand with a CL above your ECL - you have to pay credits still.
hogarth 07-10-07, 11:09 AM	That is a fairly recent change. Yes - all wands are allowed without credits as long as the CL is under your ECL. If you want a wand with a CL above your ECL - you have to pay credits still. There's one more wrinkle: wands (or dorjes) with metamagicked spells (or metapsionicked powers) cost credits to get UNLESS you craft them yourself. So templer10 had to pay credits for Elrick Flamebrother's wand of energy substituted Produce Flame, but Kilpquabjeg can craft a dorje of enlarged Ego Whip without credits (since she knows Enlarge Power).
SauroGrenom 07-10-07, 11:10 AM	There's an important Ask Wizards up today. You should check it out. Basically it says that regaining psionic focus provokes an AoO, and there's nothing you can do to avoid that AoO while threatened. This is different from what I've always done, and what I've seen others do. The status quo is that regaining psionic focus doesn't provoke an AoO, since there's nothing in the SRD to indicate that it does. This Ask Wizards changes that. It has real serious implications for the melee characters with psionic meditation. You can no-longer stand in melee and regain psionic focus w/o also provoking an AoO. I'll have to change out the Psionic Meditation feat on Kracknol. Its value for a melee or grapple character is seriously decreased.
UserNamer 07-10-07, 11:23 AM	That is a fairly recent change. Yes - all wands are allowed without credits as long as the CL is under your ECL. If you want a wand with a CL above your ECL - you have to pay credits still. Anything else allowed with credits? Other question: can u share spell all spells? even those on scrolls/wand/staffs etc?
Zevox 07-10-07, 11:25 AM	Is there any reason why those Prestigious Classes are not allowed if those variant classes and racial Paragon classes are allowed? IMHO they are hardly more powerful. They simply were not one of the things picked up initially. Cat only took the most basic things out of the UA SRD initially, and I believe he intended to expand on it later, if the things that were taken went well (which so far they have, IMO). There's one more wrinkle: wands (or dorjes) with metamagicked spells (or metapsionicked powers) cost credits to get UNLESS you craft them yourself. Um, no, thats not one of our rules. That was one of the discussed possibilities, but not the one that went through. You can buy any wand, metamagic or otherwise, without credits now, provided as Telin said its CL is within your ECL. Basically it says that regaining psionic focus provokes an AoO, and there's nothing you can do to avoid that AoO while threatened. Um, thats not new Sauro. See the Concentration skill in the Psionic section of the SRD. Gain Psionic Focus: Merely holding a reservoir of psionic power points in mind gives psionic characters a special energy. Psionic characters can put that energy to work without actually paying a power point cost-they can become psionically focused as a special use of the Concentration skill. If you have 1 or more power points available, you can meditate to attempt to become psionically focused. The DC to become psionically focused is 20. Meditating is a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity. When you are psionically focused, you can expend your focus on any single Concentration check you make thereafter. When you expend your focus in this manner, your Concentration check is treated as if you rolled a 15. It’s like taking 10, except that the number you add to your Concentration modifier is 15. You can also expend your focus to gain the benefit of a psionic feat - many psionic feats are activated in this way. Once you are psionically focused, you remain focused until you expend your focus, become unconscious, or go to sleep (or enter a meditative trance, in the case of elans), or until your power point reserve drops to 0. This is why I've always had Arden use either a reach weapon or 5' steps plus readied actions to regain his focus and yet remain in combat. Zevox
Zevox 07-10-07, 11:29 AM	Anything else allowed with credits? Other question: can u share spell all spells? even those on scrolls/wand/staffs etc? For the first, potions and psionic tattoos were opened to any spell/power/CL/ML at the same time as wands, though they do have some restrictions of their own (such as potions not being allowed to be personal range). I suppose it might bear noting that wands still have to follow the SRD rule that they can't be for spells above spell level 4, too. For spell sharing, those you mentioned would be allowed to my knowledge. Things like potions, psionic tattoos, or magic items (Winged Boots, for example) would not though. Zevox
SauroGrenom 07-10-07, 11:29 AM	Lonewolf, With respect to the prestigious classes in the SRD. I have some concern about balance. When I look at those, it seams that the Prestigious Ranger is in fact better than the classic ranger. All of the prestigious classes are better than the core classes they replace. They have better casting progression, and they have better abilities. Generally the only sacrifice is the loss of a few skill points for the bard and ranger. In exchange, you get a better spell progression, and valuable class features at an earlier point. So I'm not a supporter of the idea of using these prestigious classes. Some of the UA material isn't as well balanced, and we're not including it in CoCo for obvious balance reasons. That's just my take on it.
TelinArtho 07-10-07, 11:35 AM	I've just started to take a look at the prestigious classes. What would be helpful to me is to have a comparison of each class at some basic level (say example characters built at ECL3, 5, 10, 15 with the same purpose in mind). On first glance they do seem to be, in general, more able spell casters, but I'm skeptical on what is the downside to them. Take, for instance, the paladin. It still has turn undead - but now without the paladin level minus 3. So a cleric/paladin would not have a reduced level for the turn undead. In addition, the lay on hands is based on Paladin level +3 - so there's going to be very little difference there from a regular paladin. In addition, the paladin gets a much bigger casting list and better spell progression...
hogarth 07-10-07, 11:48 AM	In addition, the paladin gets a much bigger casting list and better spell progression... If you took all 10 levels of Prestige Paladin, it probably wouldn't be too bad. But I think the more comon thing is to take two levels' worth (for divine grace) and then go back to cleric after that. So you're sacrificing a feat and a level of spellcasting for Divine Grace, a (crappy) mount, lay on hands, etc. It's a pretty front-loaded class; the only thing additional levels give you is fighter BAB, more smites, a better mount and remove disease. The Prestige Ranger is a bit less worrisome to me (high entry requirements in exchange for not much). Same with the Prestige Bard (you lose spellcasting levels and gain bardic music in return, essentially).
TheMagister 07-10-07, 11:51 AM	There's an important Ask Wizards up today. You should check it out. Basically it says that regaining psionic focus provokes an AoO, and there's nothing you can do to avoid that AoO while threatened. This is different from what I've always done, and what I've seen others do. The status quo is that regaining psionic focus doesn't provoke an AoO, since there's nothing in the SRD to indicate that it does. This Ask Wizards changes that. It has real serious implications for the melee characters with psionic meditation. You can no-longer stand in melee and regain psionic focus w/o also provoking an AoO. I'll have to change out the Psionic Meditation feat on Kracknol. Its value for a melee or grapple character is seriously decreased. You know, there's something I've always wondered that we don't do here. Why can't a person regain their psionic focus "on the defensive"? It'd be a simple DC 15 concentration check that is made before the DC 20 check to regain their focus. Refocusing can't be all that much harder than casting a spell...
SauroGrenom 07-10-07, 11:56 AM	All of the prestigious classes basically require being 5th level to qualify. So you can use that to figure out how to make it all work. As I look over it... I see that the Bard gets a much better spell casting power. His CL maxes out at 15 (I think), but he has access to 8th level spells from the wizard list and maybe more spell levels/day than a bard. All his bardic music things become possible one level higher and require maxed ranks in Perform to get them when they become class features. The Paladin looses out on 2 levels for his best paladin abilities, but he casts really well. That's a total of 8 levels into a casting class. He gets a +3 bonus on most of the valuable ones, and he starts with a loss of 5 levels to qualify. This applies to his mount, and his lay on hands. The smite evil he looses +5 damage. The turn undead ability is about neutral depending on what classes you use to get into the prestigious class. The obvious choice is cleric4/fighter1 into this then 15 levels in the prestigious class. You end with 12th level casting, and effective 18th level with respect to the mount and lay hands abilities. The smite evil is only 15th level, but you turn undead at 19th level. So your CL is a bit higher than a full paladin, and you have a much better spells/day and selection than a normal paladin and some of your other abilities are nearly the same or even better. The Druid 4/Fighter 1/ Prestige Ranger gets some of his abilities later. The Hide in Plain Sight ability comes later than a single class ranger. But again the spell casting power is way higher. Also the animal companion is like a druid instead of a ranger. It's almost just like a ranger, except all the weaknesses are covered up. Your animal companion rocks, and your spell list grows to the entire druid list.
Erithmu 07-10-07, 11:57 AM	Because your focus is focused somewhere else ...
Zevox 07-10-07, 11:58 AM	You know, there's something I've always wondered that we don't do here. Why can't a person regain their psionic focus "on the defensive"? It'd be a simple DC 15 concentration check that is made before the DC 20 check to regain their focus. Refocusing can't be all that much harder than casting a spell... Because, by the RAW, its not allowed. The concentration skill specifically says that this can only be done with spells, SLAs, and skills, and nothing else. The Psionic adds manifesting powers and PLAs to the equation, but nothing else. So those are the only things that can be done defensively. Special: You can use Concentration to cast a spell, use a spell-like ability, or use a skill defensively, so as to avoid attacks of opportunity altogether. This doesn’t apply to other actions that might provoke attacks of opportunity. Special: You can use Concentration to manifest a power or use a psi-like ability defensively, so as to avoid attacks of opportunity altogether. Hm, actually, interesting query: would gaining focus be considered using a skill for the purposes of this? Could make it allowable by the RAW. Zevox
hogarth 07-10-07, 11:58 AM	You know, there's something I've always wondered that we don't do here. Why can't a person regain their psionic focus "on the defensive"? It'd be a simple DC 15 concentration check that is made before the DC 20 check to regain their focus. The "Ask Wizards" column Sauro referred to specifically said you can't do that (with no explanation).
SauroGrenom 07-10-07, 11:58 AM	You know, there's something I've always wondered that we don't do here. Why can't a person regain their psionic focus "on the defensive"? It'd be a simple DC 15 concentration check that is made before the DC 20 check to regain their focus. Refocusing can't be all that much harder than casting a spell... It is specifically mentioned in the Ask Wizards. There is no way to regain psionic focus on the defensive. It's just not in the rules. The Sage is very succinct. He says ... "No."
Korone 07-10-07, 12:12 PM	Random question: Are scrolls subject to the arcane spell failure from wearing armor as spells are?
TelinArtho 07-10-07, 12:15 PM	Yes they are - well - at least Arcane scrolls are. Divine scrolls never have ASF.
MindWandererB 07-10-07, 12:23 PM	Hm, actually, interesting query: would gaining focus be considered using a skill for the purposes of this? Could make it allowable by the RAW.That's the way I've always read it. The very definition of psionic focus is found in the Skills->Concentration section of the XPH. That makes it "using a skill." I really wish Andy had explained himself on that one. I'm going to have to rethink Maya's progression now, as regaining focus in melee just became prohibitive. Could you ride for cover to prevent AoOs while regaining focus?
Korone 07-10-07, 12:23 PM	Thanks, I couldn't put my hand on it. But other than having a mithral armor, is there any way to lessen the spell failure chance that I might have missed?
TelinArtho 07-10-07, 12:27 PM	Mithril armor is a solid route. Bards and Battle sorcerers can cast freely in light armor without ASF. Also - note that only spells with somatic components need to check for ASF - so spells that are Stilled and spells such as Feather Fall, True Strike, and Blindness/Deafness do not need to check for ASF.
hogarth 07-10-07, 12:28 PM	Sauro, I think your comparisons (while correct) are a bit unlikely; we have only a tiny handful of full bards, full rangers and full paladins in the Core Coliseum as it is, so why use those as your benchmarks? I think a more likely comparison would be something like: Cleric 8/Paladin 2 vs. Cleric 8/Prestige Paladin 2 (prestige paladin is obviously better) Bard 1/Wizard 9 vs. Rogue 1/Wizard 8/Prestige Bard 1 (bard/wizard is probably better, but why would you bother just for bardic music?) Druid 10 vs. Druid 8/Prestige Ranger 2 (druid is probably better since Track and Endurance are basically wasted feats) All of the prestigious classes basically require being 5th level to qualify. So you can use that to figure out how to make it all work. As I look over it... I see that the Bard gets a much better spell casting power. His CL maxes out at 15 (I think), but he has access to 8th level spells from the wizard list and maybe more spell levels/day than a bard. All his bardic music things become possible one level higher and require maxed ranks in Perform to get them when they become class features. The Paladin looses out on 2 levels for his best paladin abilities, but he casts really well. That's a total of 8 levels into a casting class. He gets a +3 bonus on most of the valuable ones, and he starts with a loss of 5 levels to qualify. This applies to his mount, and his lay on hands. The smite evil he looses +5 damage. The turn undead ability is about neutral depending on what classes you use to get into the prestigious class. The obvious choice is cleric4/fighter1 into this then 15 levels in the prestigious class. You end with 12th level casting, and effective 18th level with respect to the mount and lay hands abilities. The smite evil is only 15th level, but you turn undead at 19th level. So your CL is a bit higher than a full paladin, and you have a much better spells/day and selection than a normal paladin and some of your other abilities are nearly the same or even better. The Druid 4/Fighter 1/ Prestige Ranger gets some of his abilities later. The Hide in Plain Sight ability comes later than a single class ranger. But again the spell casting power is way higher. Also the animal companion is like a druid instead of a ranger. It's almost just like a ranger, except all the weaknesses are covered up. Your animal companion rocks, and your spell list grows to the entire druid list.
SauroGrenom 07-10-07, 12:36 PM	Well. Comparing to the standard classes is easy. And it's a benchmark we can all agree as being a simple one that's balanced. By comparing another optional class to the core class, we get a simple assessment of who's more powerful. If the optional class is more powerful than the core class in most ways and shows no additional significant weaknesses, then there is a clear balance problem. You're probably right in that other more complicated comparison's could be more useful to asses the potency of the prestigious classes in our setting. But it's a much harder comparison to make and explain to others. Besides saying anything isn't overpowered compared to the druid is kind of silly.
Korone 07-10-07, 12:52 PM	Is a 15% spell failure that bad ? It doesn't really seems that high to me, but I've never really tried an armored mage so I don't know how it can screw a fight. I'm thinking of giving a wizard level to my orc barbarian, Yakov, so he can Shield and enlarge himself. And buy back a wand of cure light wounds. Going full barbarian is temptating, but for -4hp, -1Ab, -1 fort/ref, it doesn't really seems that bad for spells and +2 will. Worth trying?
hogarth 07-10-07, 12:54 PM	Is a 15% spell failure that bad ? It doesn't really seems that high to me, but I've never really tried an armored mage so I don't know how it can screw a fight. I'm thinking of giving a wizard level to my orc barbarian, Yakov, so he can Shield and enlarge himself. And buy back a wand of cure light wounds. Going full barbarian is temptating, but for -4hp, -1Ab, -1 fort/ref, it doesn't really seems that bad for spells and +2 will. Worth trying? If you're willing to stick with scrolls, you can try a level of cleric with the Magic domain. That'd allow you to use both cleric and wizard scrolls and wands.
Korone 07-10-07, 01:09 PM	So, it is exactly the same thing as if I would take a level in wizard, but better ? That's interesting.
TelinArtho 07-10-07, 01:12 PM	And if you want Enlarge Person - you might as well make your other domain Strength - that way you can get divine scrolls of Enlarge Person without the need for ASF. Other domains work well for this as well (Trickery for invisibility, Travel for Fly, etc) Alternatively - pick up the luck domain and get the benefit to reroll the ASF if you fail (that's what my Sorcerer/Cleric has - though it hasn't come up yet...)
SoulLord 07-10-07, 01:14 PM	quick question as I'm not sure what the latest ruling is on it does touchsight allow to bypass mirror image?
TelinArtho 07-10-07, 01:16 PM	Is a trident similar enough in size and shape to a spear/quarterstaff for purposes of the 3rd compartment of an Efficient Quiver?
MindWandererB 07-10-07, 01:18 PM	quick question as I'm not sure what the latest ruling is on it does touchsight allow to bypass mirror image?Yes. Touchsight lets you distinguish illusion from reality.Is a trident similar enough in size and shape to a spear/quarterstaff for purposes of the 3rd compartment of an Efficient Quiver?I'd say so, yes.
hogarth 07-10-07, 01:32 PM	How much money do you get if you sell a purchased, trained ally? Is a trained ally worth more than an untrained one? Does it matter if you train it yourself? Example: Ted buys a griffon egg for 3,500 gp and trains it himself before entering Gladius. Dougal, on the other hand, buys a young griffon for 7,000 gp and pays 1,500 gp to have it trained by a professional. How much does Ted get when he sells his griffon? How much does Dougal get when he sells his griffon?
TelinArtho 07-10-07, 01:52 PM	Is a trident similar enough in size and shape to a spear/quarterstaff for purposes of the 3rd compartment of an Efficient Quiver? I'd say so, yes. Okay - how about longspears? Are they too long? And then I guess the next question would be Glaives, Guisarmes and other polearms.
stimpydoda 07-10-07, 02:14 PM	If the paladins mount was made into a leadership cohort, would they have to summon them for the restricted amount of time then?
MindWandererB 07-10-07, 02:32 PM	Okay - how about longspears? Are they too long? And then I guess the next question would be Glaives, Guisarmes and other polearms.My rule of thumb would be any non-reach polearm.If the paladins mount was made into a leadership cohort, would they have to summon them for the restricted amount of time then?Yes, we heard you the first two times. I'm hoping someone who owns the 3.5 DMG will answer that.
Zevox 07-10-07, 02:47 PM	Yes, we heard you the first two times. I'm hoping someone who owns the 3.5 DMG will answer that. 3.5 DMG says nothing on the subject. Theres not much in the way of specifics about it at all, actually - just that its "worth a minimum of a +2 level adjustment to the cohort mount ECL." Looks like it was intended to be a DM call as to exactly how it works. Zevox
TelinArtho 07-10-07, 02:52 PM	Okay... another custom item that I'm thinking of: Bracers of the Kraken [2880gp, 15°] 1/day, swift action for Psionic Lion's Charge CL 4th, Requirements: Craft Universal Item, Psionic's Lion Charge The flavor of the kraken has specifics to do with the character I'm making - so essentially it is just a command-thought activated item for Psionic Lion's Charge. The key question here is the ability to make it a swift action activation - because otherwise it would be useless.
MindWandererB 07-10-07, 02:55 PM	3.5 DMG says nothing on the subject. Theres not much in the way of specifics about it at all, actually - just that its "worth a minimum of a +2 level adjustment to the cohort mount ECL." Looks like it was intended to be a DM call as to exactly how it works. Zevox Since it's a cohort, it should probably stick around all the time, then. They probably forgot about that (since the 3.0 pally mount wasn't summoned) when they wrote that blurb.
Usurpator 07-10-07, 03:34 PM	Yeah, I'm still here. :) Just very busy lately, little time for CoCo. I cleaned out my PM Box though, so it should accept messages again.
Yitzi 07-10-07, 03:40 PM	Question: How does the merciful weapon feature combine with the elemental damage features? E.g. a merciful flaming weapon-does it do normal+1d6 nonlethal+1d6 lethal fire, or normal+1d6 nonlethal+1d6 nonlethal fire, or something else?
hogarth 07-10-07, 03:43 PM	Question: How does the merciful weapon feature combine with the elemental damage features? E.g. a merciful flaming weapon-does it do normal+1d6 nonlethal+1d6 lethal fire, or normal+1d6 nonlethal+1d6 nonlethal fire, or something else? As far as I know, there's no such thing as "nonlethal fire" damage; it's either fire damage or nonlethal. A merciful flaming weapon would do normal (ie. "lethal") fire damage.
SauroGrenom 07-10-07, 03:53 PM	Okay... another custom item that I'm thinking of: Bracers of the Kraken [2880gp, 15°] 1/day, swift action for Psionic Lion's Charge CL 4th, Requirements: Craft Universal Item, Psionic's Lion Charge The flavor of the kraken has specifics to do with the character I'm making - so essentially it is just a command-thought activated item for Psionic Lion's Charge. The key question here is the ability to make it a swift action activation - because otherwise it would be useless. Ouch. This is tough. There are lots of powers that are useless unless they are manifest as swift actions. However there are also lots of powers that can be considered to be too much if they are swift actions. It's a fine line for me. Hustle comes to mind as a power that's seriously potent, and as an item it could be overpowered. Also Expansion, Defensive and Offensive Precognition are all long lasting buffs that can be augmented to manifest as a swift action. So there's some room for similar bonuses that are too short to be prebuffed, but "could" be activated as a swift action if we allow items to be activated with such actions. The other thing is that we have lots of items with spell effect activation times longer than the activation time allowed by the casters of these spells. Such as powerstones of emptymind or grip of iron. I'm on the fence on this one right now. But I'm leaning toward saying that item activation times cannot be circumvented by simply including a spell or power with a shorter activation time than a normal standard action. I understand that this means some spells and powers are pointless as items. But I feel uncomfortable giving a way around the rule requiring a standard action to activate a magic item.
TelinArtho 07-10-07, 04:04 PM	Well - there are certainly items that are activated as swift actions (though now that I think of it - I meant to say it as a free action - not a swift action - if that makes any difference). Boots of Speed/Mithril Full Plate of Speed can be turned on and off with a free action. The gloves of Titan's grip activate automatically when enterring a grapple, etc. There's not a lot of examples to work from - but I don't know that it necessarily would be overpowered to allow it. Similarly for Hustle - it would only be useful as a free action - but I don't see why it would be overpowered to allow it, assuming there is a limit on the number of uses. Compare Hustle with 10 uses per day to the cost of the boots of speed (also with 10 uses per day) - 1800*2*4*2 = 28,800gp for 10 activations of Hustle per day. Granted, the extra move action is nice - but it doesn't net you more attacks (like haste does), doesn't help dodge attacks (like haste does), and only gives you more distance if your speed is greater than 40ft to begin with.
SauroGrenom 07-10-07, 04:21 PM	I'd definitely be against making such an item be a free action. With free action Hustle, you can use it over and over. You can get 5 extra move actions in a round. Move over and full attack your wizard foe who lost initiative. Swift actions to activate these items are necessary. My point is that if we allow universal items to cheat the rules that require a standard action to activate an item, then why not powerstones or psicrowns or tattoos? If universal items for Hustle can cheat the rules, then why not universal items for Astral Construct? See my point? Where do you draw the line? I just don't think we should start breaking the rules for the time it takes to activate an item unless we are given specific examples in the SRD.
TelinArtho 07-10-07, 04:28 PM	Well as long as the item has the restriction that it counts as the one quickened power/spell per round (which is the language in Hustle), that would limit it quite effectively. For a quickened item of Astral Construct - that's not out of the question, but is pretty expensive (1800*4*7=50400gp for 5 uses per day - and that would be to manifest a single Level 1 construct...). As I said - there are specific examples - Boots of Speed and Gloves of Titan's Grip.
hogarth 07-10-07, 04:32 PM	I just don't think we should start breaking the rules for the time it takes to activate an item unless we are given specific examples in the SRD. If he made it use-activated, then it wouldn't be breaking the rules on item activation. That'd make you both happy, right?
TelinArtho 07-10-07, 04:48 PM	If he made it use-activated, then it wouldn't be breaking the rules on item activation. That'd make you both happy, right? Good point. In the description of the use-activated, it holds pretty much exactly what I'm looking for: Many use-activated items are objects that a character wears. Continually functioning items are practically always items that one wears. A few must simply be in the character’s possession (on his person). However, some items made for wearing must still be activated. Although this activation sometimes requires a command word (see above), usually it means mentally willing the activation to happen. The description of an item states whether a command word is needed in such a case. Unless stated otherwise, activating a use-activated magic item is either a standard action or not an action at all and does not provoke attacks of opportunity, unless the use involves performing an action that provokes an attack of opportunity in itself. If the use of the item takes time before a magical effect occurs, then use activation is a standard action. If the item’s activation is subsumed in its use and takes no extra time use activation is not an action at all. So in the case of the boots of haste - they are worn but only activated when you do the free action to click the heels together. This done - the wearer gets to make an extra attack on a full attack or any of the other benefits of haste. In the case of the bracers I want, the activation is the charge itself - so it takes no extra time and therefore is not an action. Something that gave hustle would be similar in effect - but it would still have the restriction that you can only manifest one quickened power per round - so you can't stack together multiple hustles in the same round (or for that matter, combine hustle and psionic lion's charge). In any case, that adjusts the pricing somewhat to: 2000 * 2 * 4 * (1/5) = 3200gp for 1/day Psionic Lion's charge activated when a charge is started.
SauroGrenom 07-10-07, 05:31 PM	Telin, you are not suggesting an item that manifests a quickened power as you argue with the quickened astral construct thing. Rather you are suggesting that an item should be able to be activated using the type of action to cast the spell (or manifest the power) rather than the usual standard action to activate a magical item. Also you are stretching the "use activated" definition really to the limit. By that line of reasoning, anything at all could be "use activated". Hundreds of the items in the SRD would be eligible to be remade as "use activated" and free the characters of the need to waste time in combat activating them. This is setting a bad precedent. For example if we allow any items to be made that can be used with the kind of action that it takes to cast/manifest the spell/power then we result in funny things. Scrolls of Featherfall are cast as a free action. Powerstones of Emptymind are manifest as a swift action. Powerstones of Hustle can be manifest as a swift action. Potions of Featherfall are quaffed as a free action. Psicrowns of augmented Expansion can be used as a swift action. And so on with dozens of various combinations of items that break the rules. Basically the point is this, the rules say that activating a magic item takes 1 standard action. So I don't think we should make any exceptions to that rule unless we are specifically told to do so.
TelinArtho 07-10-07, 05:43 PM	Telin, you are not suggesting an item that manifests a quickened power as you argue with the quickened astral construct thing. Rather you are suggesting that an item should be able to be activated using the type of action to cast the spell (or manifest the power) rather than the usual standard action to activate a magical item. Also you are stretching the "use activated" definition really to the limit. By that line of reasoning, anything at all could be "use activated". Hundreds of the items in the SRD would be eligible to be remade as "use activated" and free the characters of the need to waste time in combat activating them. This is setting a bad precedent. For example if we allow any items to be made that can be used with the kind of action that it takes to cast/manifest the spell/power then we result in funny things. Scrolls of Featherfall are cast as a free action. Powerstones of Emptymind are manifest as a swift action. Powerstones of Hustle can be manifest as a swift action. Potions of Featherfall are quaffed as a free action. Psicrowns of augmented Expansion can be used as a swift action. And so on with dozens of various combinations of items that break the rules. Basically the point is this, the rules say that activating a magic item takes 1 standard action. So I don't think we should make any exceptions to that rule unless we are specifically told to do so. And yet you haven't responded to the examples I have given of items that do exactly what I'm looking to do... Let's look at a more simple case - the Ring of Feather Falling. Feather Falling: This ring is crafted with a feather pattern all around its edge. It acts exactly like a feather fall spell, activated immediately if the wearer falls more than 5 feet. Faint transmutation; CL 1st; Forge Ring, feather fall; Price 2,200 gp. How is this any different than my item (set as a ring): Ring of Psionic Lion's Charge: The ring is crafted with a Lion's head in a jeweled setting. It activates immediately once the wearer initiates a charge and only functions once per day. Faint Psychometabolism; ML 4th; Forge Ring, Psionic Lion's Charge; Price 3200gp.
The Dread Dormammu 07-10-07, 05:47 PM	Snaga is now ready to go. Any advice tactical or otherwise is appreciated. This is my first character so I'm not sure how he'll do. http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12985771&postcount=1176 I have a quick question though. Do I need to select my spells before hand or can I use my pre-fight actions to prepare for a specific opponent? There is a minimum time of 1 hour between fights so it seems like there would be time to prepare spells.
MitzaVolchenko 07-10-07, 05:55 PM	Snaga is now ready to go. Any advice tactical or otherwise is appreciated. This is my first character so I'm not sure how he'll do. http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12985771&postcount=1176 I have a quick question though. Do I need to select my spells before hand or can I use my pre-fight actions to prepare for a specific opponent? There is a minimum time of 1 hour between fights so it seems like there would be time to prepare spells. Spells must be selected prior to setting to ready. They may only be pre-buffed if they have durations sufficient to cover more than one fight no matter what the time lapse between fights is...I think 12 hours, but I am not sure if that is still the case.
SoulLord 07-10-07, 05:55 PM	Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't it decided that uses per day and charges were not to be used at the same time when creating items?
MindWandererB 07-10-07, 05:57 PM	Spells must be selected prior to setting to ready. They may only be pre-buffed if they have durations sufficient to cover more than one fight no matter what the time lapse between fights is...I think 12 hours, but I am not sure if that is still the case. In other words, although there is 1-6 hours between fights, you don't know your opponent's identity until the instant the fight begins. Similarly, you don't know how long it will be between fights, and all your prebuffed effects are applied before the 1-6 hour timer starts ticking (so if you prebuffed a CL 3 Mage Armor, you're good if the roll is 1-2 hours, but not if it's any longer).
TelinArtho 07-10-07, 05:57 PM	First off - you need to prepare your spells before pairings. You can leave some slots open to be filled in between fights - but you cannot change your character after pairings have been set. In terms of your character - you've got to clean up your expenses, because they are all over the place. You list the price of the Heavy Crossbow as 0gp (should be 50gp), a spellbook as 20gp (should be 15gp). Same thing in your expendables. A CL3 scroll of true strike is no better than a CL1 scroll and only costs more. You might as well scribe 3 CL1 scrolls. For scribing spells into your spellbook, there are two costs and two methods you need to be aware of: 1. First the cost of scribing. This is 100gp per page (and it is one page per spell level, minimum one page). I do not see this cost reflected in your sheet anywhere. 2. Second is the source of the spell. This can be a scroll (25gp*CL*SL) or NPC services (50gp*SL). The first method is preferable for 1st level spells; the second method is cheaper for 2nd level spells and higher.
TelinArtho 07-10-07, 05:59 PM	Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't it decided that uses per day and charges were not to be used at the same time when creating items? Correct. I am not asking for an item that has uses per day and charges though. I am requesting an item that has one use per day.
MindWandererB 07-10-07, 06:00 PM	As far as I know, there's no such thing as "nonlethal fire" damage; it's either fire damage or nonlethal. A merciful flaming weapon would do normal (ie. "lethal") fire damage. I could have sworn this was ruled differently somewhere, due to the "all damage" phrasing of Merciful. Can't find it, though.
Sjiggie 07-10-07, 06:04 PM	Regarding Snage: I don't know why you have such a high Charisma? What is your plan with him? I would put some more points in CON instead of CHA because of your low hitdie. Also you have listed you Will mod as -1 instead of +1 seems like a typo to me. You may want to remove the brackets around your class lvl Gender type etc. in the top of the sheet makes reading it a bit easier. You have to prepare your spells before each fight because it would be unfair to your opponent to not know where he is up against. You can leave some slots open but you can only prepare spells in them between fights not after the deadline when you know against who you're up against. You have to take a look at your expandables again. You don't round the GP expenses and you have to list if you have crafted them yourselves or bought them. The easiest way to do that is with a sup tag like [ sup]C[/ sup] (without the spaces). Thunderstones are not counted against your expandable cap only potions, scrolls, psionic tattoo's and powerstones are. You might want to consider taking a melee weapon even if its something like a club or quarterstaff. It doesn't cost any gp and you never know when you end up in melee when you run out of spells. Since your wizards has (greater) spell focus enchantment I think you are going for a save or die type of caster and a Coup de Grace weapon might be usefull. Something like a greataxe or scythe or another weapon with a high crit modifier. Even when your not proficient with them a CDG always scores a critical hit and most of the times youn deal enough damage that your opponent will die from it through the damage alone but most of the times through the high fortsave is has to make. Remeber that scrolls use the minimum ability score to cast the spell for its DC so your scroll of sleep only has a DC of 11. I hope this helps and succes with him in the Arena -Sjiggie
SoulLord 07-10-07, 06:04 PM	Snaga is now ready to go. Any advice tactical or otherwise is appreciated. This is my first character so I'm not sure how he'll do. http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12985771&postcount=1176 I have a quick question though. Do I need to select my spells before hand or can I use my pre-fight actions to prepare for a specific opponent? There is a minimum time of 1 hour between fights so it seems like there would be time to prepare spells. well the thing that interested me the most is the backstory :) seems like a good candidate to eventually join TAO
The Dread Dormammu 07-10-07, 06:36 PM	Thank you everyone for your advice and suggestions! I don't know why you have such a high Charisma? What is your plan with him? I would put some more points in CON instead of CHA because of your low hitdie. Also you have listed you Will mod as -1 instead of +1 seems like a typo to me. Planning on casting things like Charm Person, or Hypnotism on minions or opponents then using diplomacy etc. To get them to switch sides, or use bad tactics. (It might work with mercenaries). Fixed typo. well the thing that interested me the most is the backstory seems like a good candidate to eventually join TAO Hell yeah he is! I've got a good idea of how I'm going to have him join too. For scribing spells into your spellbook, there are two costs and two methods you need to be aware of: 1. First the cost of scribing. This is 100gp per page (and it is one page per spell level, minimum one page). I do not see this cost reflected in your sheet anywhere. 2. Second is the source of the spell. This can be a scroll (25gp*CL*SL) or NPC services (50gp*SL). The first method is preferable for 1st level spells; the second method is cheaper for 2nd level spells and higher. Shoot forgot about scribing costs (and spells)! Ok time to clean up expenses. Thanks everyone.
MindWandererB 07-10-07, 06:47 PM	Planning on casting things like Charm Person, or Hypnotism on minions or opponents then using diplomacy etc. To get them to switch sides, or use bad tactics. (It might work with mercenaries).Charm effects are iffy at best on PCs. You can't get them to do anything obviously harmful, and no matter how much your friend they are, you still have to fight each other (there have been cases of friends randomly encountering each other in the arena); they might come to an agreement to facilitate the fight and/or save resources, but that's about the best you can hope for. Allies will at best stay out of the fight--making them your friend won't stap them from being the other PC's ally. Regardless of which, Diplomacy isn't used for these functions.
SoulLord 07-10-07, 07:11 PM	Charm effects are iffy at best on PCs. You can't get them to do anything obviously harmful, and no matter how much your friend they are, you still have to fight each other (there have been cases of friends randomly encountering each other in the arena); they might come to an agreement to facilitate the fight and/or save resources, but that's about the best you can hope for. Allies will at best stay out of the fight--making them your friend won't stap them from being the other PC's ally. Regardless of which, Diplomacy isn't used for these functions. mmmm interesting how about convincing them to deal subdual non lethal damage? the -4 penalty oughta be a good boost for you :)
Eluria 07-10-07, 07:23 PM	Can I ask a random question: Can you use NPC services to prebuff Dissolving weapon on a weapon? I know it's a personal range power, but couldn't you envision giving your weapon to said NPC, paying, and accepting the weapon (carefully) back into your own possession? I'm sure the answer's no, just wondering why... thanks!
The Dread Dormammu 07-10-07, 08:19 PM	Regarding Snage: I think you are going for a save or die type of caster and a Coup de Grace weapon might be usefull. -Sjiggie I thought you could Coup de Grace with a crossbow.
MindWandererB 07-10-07, 08:31 PM	I thought you could Coup de Grace with a crossbow. You can, but it only does 2d8 damage (avg. 9), and that's with the Heavy (so it had better be loaded already). With a greataxe, you'd get 3d10-6 (avg. 10.5), which I think is the best you can do.
The Dread Dormammu 07-10-07, 08:34 PM	Fixed accounting (I think) and added a new photo.
The Dread Dormammu 07-10-07, 08:41 PM	You can, but it only does 2d8 damage (avg. 9), and that's with the Heavy (so it had better be loaded already). With a greataxe, you'd get 3d10-6 (avg. 10.5), which I think is the best you can do. While that's true, keep in mind poor Snaga can only carry 15lbs before he becomes encumbered. Perhaps a Heavy or Light pick?
MitzaVolchenko 07-10-07, 09:36 PM	While that's true, keep in mind poor Snaga can only carry 15lbs before he becomes encumbered. Perhaps a Heavy or Light pick? Hmm...go with the heavy crossbow and then take whatever the heaviest weapon your slumbering opponent is carrying and use that to CDG them. It is fun to remove your foe's head with their own great axe :)
Vathelokai 07-10-07, 11:02 PM	Snaga is now ready to go. Any advice tactical or otherwise is appreciated. This is my first character so I'm not sure how he'll do. Link I have a quick question though. Do I need to select my spells before hand or can I use my pre-fight actions to prepare for a specific opponent? There is a minimum time of 1 hour between fights so it seems like there would be time to prepare spells. I like him. Some notes: super enchanters are hard to run. I've been trying with Zodiac for a while now. Slow casting time on sleep, short range on deep slumber, one save per round on hold person; hideous laughter can buy time, but you can't CDG with it. If you're looking to win fights before getting dominate person, you should either develop an unbeatable strategy or switch to necromancy focus. Necromancer save or die spells are so much more efficient. Now, don't let me detract you from doing it for fun, of course. Intimidate skill: good for RP but not too arena efficient. The 'skill package' use for it needs a high modifier (i.e. if you don't have it as a class skill, you'll need a skill boost item, like the mask of dread in the psionic-SRD). Also note that having handle animal helps alot with the skill package usage of intimidate. I'd consider picking up a craft skill; you can grab an extra 100+ gp per fight by crafting as a free activity. Which brings me to... Goals: owning every spell is more reasonable than you might think. I considered it once and discovered you can fit all of them in 2 blessed books on 1674 pages: Roughly 100,000 gold. Possible between lv 13 and 15. Goblin City rocks. I could defintely run quests toward that end. You might want to get ahold of Istima over at PSI to help you out.
Zevox 07-10-07, 11:11 PM	Goblin City rocks. I could defintely run quests toward that end. You might want to get ahold of Istima over at PSI to help you out. Just to pipe up on that one, not too likely. After living most of his young life among a Goblin tribe that were quite evil, none too bright, and basically thrived on banditry, he can't stand most other Goblins or Orc-kin. He might get along with Snaga - depends on what he proves to be like when RPed in person - but he wouldn't be interested in creating a Goblin city. Hes found where he belongs, Gladius and the PSI Consortium, and thats enough for him. Zevox
Erithmu 07-10-07, 11:24 PM	This is just a general announcement: I'm going on vacation from the 13th - 21st ... Dunno if I will have Inet, but I'm not planning on having anything on my plate during that time. Some of you know this due to quest requests, but I'll resume my duties on the 25th (not to mention have most of my characters active ... On quests or missions.)
xZerasx 07-11-07, 10:11 AM	Hello! Just a quick question - should I PM someone about changes that require Training Hall approval? It's just that my request has been sitting there for almost a week with no response, and I need the change so I can get my free activity in for this upcoming week. Thanks.
TelinArtho 07-11-07, 10:20 AM	Sauro usually approves things on Tuesday nights - but I know he's been very busy lately. If it is approved after you are no longer able to edit your character (because of your own time or the deadline) - just send a pm to your opponent and the pitlord with the approval when it shows up. If no approval shows up, point to this post where I approve it unofficially.
TelinArtho 07-11-07, 10:43 AM	Okay - I need an official list of people and the characters they want to enroll in the Denth campaign(s). If there's enough people and enough diversity, the second campaign is going to be run by Erithmu. Here's the details: ECL9-11 characters Start date: August 15th or August 22nd. Guild membership is not required, but it is fairly important to have most/all of the guilds represented. Any guild that does not have a member in the campaign will have a reasonable in-game explanation for their non-involvement that is up to the guildmaster of that guild to decide on. Here's the list of people who applied thus far - but I would like confirmation from everyone on the list to make it official: Sdentch the Angelic (ECL10, TheMagister) Half-Celestial Half-Orc Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 2/Half-Orc Paragon 3/Fighter 1, Neutral Good Auburn in Twilight (ECL10, Vathelokai) Air Gnome Conjurer (Rapid Summoner variant) 7/Loremaster 3, Neutral Good Owen Ir'Tolden (ECL10, Erithmu) Human Abjurer 5/Red Wizard 5, Neutral Retikos, the Paradparasha Sage (ECL10, SauroGrenom) Phrenic Gray Elf Conjurer 5, Elf Paragon 3, Neutral Vandelar the Red (ECL10, Soullord) Gray Elf Necromancer 10, Neutral Malither76 - any of his characters, alignment dependant (Baelin - Wood Elf Rogue 5/Assassin 5, Neutral Evil; Gareth - Half-Giant Psychic Warrior 9, Chaotic Good; Malik of Black Robe - Gray Elf Wizard 9, Lawful Evil) Nimbus (ECL11, Zevox) Wyrmling Silver Dragon, Lawful Good Willowmoon (ECL10, MitzaVolchenko) Unicorn Paladin of Freedom 2, Chaotic Good I am not planning on running one of my own characters, but if CEF doesn't have an entry, I might add Sir Valkin to 'Rith's campaign - we'll see. Other than that I see a WAR entry (Sdentch), TAO (Auburn, Vandelar, Owen), EHTC (Baelin, Malik), PSI (Gareth). I'll have to check the memberships of the others - though like I said - membership in a guild is certainly not required. Aerryl has been pulled as MWB doesn't have the time right now - so TLT doesn't have a current member.
Erithmu 07-11-07, 10:56 AM	The more I am looking at the time frame I am thinking that Owen might not be 'ready' to go. Storyline wise he is the best option, but he is going to have a 'few' things to craft. However if MWB is going to back down from TLT I might put forth Loddick (although he might be ECL 12 by the time he starts), and he would have good staying power as well. Ephraim could also make an appearance if needed as well. Also just a suggestion ... you might need to give room for some ECL 12 people. *shrugs*
TelinArtho 07-11-07, 11:02 AM	Well - I can boost up the level if needed, but I think the maximum range is two levels difference - so if I boost it to ECL12 - minimum would be ECL10. You guys should know by now that I have no problem making things tougher...
TheMagister 07-11-07, 11:10 AM	Now's the time to say this: I'm leaving for LPG Firefighter training this coming Sunday, and I'll be gone for a week with no internet access that I can think of. That is, I know there are libraries and such in College Station, TX, but I 1) don't know where they are and 2) I'll likely be drop-dead tired by the end of the day and unwilling to do more than bathe/eat/sleep. So, no guild stuff for me this weekend, and no fights, and no posts for a solid eight or so days {pout}. I'll try, but it'll be random stuff if any at all. TM
TelinArtho 07-11-07, 11:12 AM	Well - we'll try to get through the next encounter quickly then... Coming up!
hogarth 07-11-07, 11:18 AM	Now's the time to say this: I'm leaving for LPG Firefighter training this coming Sunday, and I'll be gone for a week with no internet access that I can think of. The only LPG I know is "Le Petit Guepe", but I think he's a cleric, not a firefighter. ;)
TelinArtho 07-11-07, 11:21 AM	LPG stands for Lesser Prayer Group though - so it works out alright...
Zevox 07-11-07, 11:41 AM	Okay - I need an official list of people and the characters they want to enroll in the Denth campaign(s). If there's enough people and enough diversity, the second campaign is going to be run by Erithmu. Here's the details: ECL9-11 characters Start date: August 15th or August 22nd. Guild membership is not required, but it is fairly important to have most/all of the guilds represented. Any guild that does not have a member in the campaign will have a reasonable in-game explanation for their non-involvement that is up to the guildmaster of that guild to decide on. Here's the list of people who applied thus far - but I would like confirmation from everyone on the list to make it official: Sdentch the Angelic (ECL10, TheMagister) Half-Celestial Half-Orc Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 2/Half-Orc Paragon 3/Fighter 1, Neutral Good Auburn in Twilight (ECL10, Vathelokai) Air Gnome Conjurer (Rapid Summoner variant) 7/Loremaster 3, Neutral Good Owen Ir'Tolden (ECL10, Erithmu) Human Abjurer 5/Red Wizard 5, Neutral Retikos, the Paradparasha Sage (ECL10, SauroGrenom) Phrenic Gray Elf Conjurer 5, Elf Paragon 3, Neutral Vandelar the Red (ECL10, Soullord) Gray Elf Necromancer 10, Neutral Malither76 - any of his characters, alignment dependant (Baelin - Wood Elf Rogue 5/Assassin 5, Neutral Evil; Gareth - Half-Giant Psychic Warrior 9, Chaotic Good; Malik of Black Robe - Gray Elf Wizard 9, Lawful Evil) Nimbus (ECL11, Zevox) Wyrmling Silver Dragon, Lawful Good Willowmoon (ECL10, MitzaVolchenko) Unicorn Paladin of Freedom 2, Chaotic Good I am not planning on running one of my own characters, but if CEF doesn't have an entry, I might add Sir Valkin to 'Rith's campaign - we'll see. Other than that I see a WAR entry (Sdentch), TAO (Auburn, Vandelar, Owen), EHTC (Baelin, Malik), PSI (Gareth). I'll have to check the memberships of the others - though like I said - membership in a guild is certainly not required. Aerryl has been pulled as MWB doesn't have the time right now - so TLT doesn't have a current member. I intend to try and have Nimbus ready for that time, but if I don't, Archdevil Asran will join instead. So either way, you'll have one entry from me (though I guess they' probably get into different campaigns, given their different alignments). Zevox
MindWandererB 07-11-07, 01:42 PM	Well - I can boost up the level if needed, but I think the maximum range is two levels difference - so if I boost it to ECL12 - minimum would be ECL10. You guys should know by now that I have no problem making things tougher... Bear in mind that some of those PCs have hit ECL 11 since they volunteered: Baelin, Vandelar, and Gareth. Undoubtedly more will have done so by the time the campaign starts.
TelinArtho 07-11-07, 02:05 PM	Bear in mind that some of those PCs have hit ECL 11 since they volunteered: Baelin, Vandelar, and Gareth. Undoubtedly more will have done so by the time the campaign starts. Yup - and I'll just ramp it up if I need to. I'm really not too concerned with the possibility of people being higher ECL. I'm more concerned with setting up to know for sure if I need 2 campaigns or if 1 will be enough.
SoulLord 07-11-07, 02:26 PM	Quick question regarding crafting. You can craft less than 1000gp as a free action. you need a full activity to craft more than 1000gp. how much can you craft with a full activity 1000 gp reflecting a day 7000 gp reflecting a week 21000 gp reflecting the 3 weeks a 3fc takes anything as long as you have the gold so what is the correct statement?
TelinArtho 07-11-07, 02:29 PM	This is spelled out explicitly in the skills section of the rules: Crafting and Time: You may craft items worth up to 1000 gp (Marketprice) as a Free Activity. As a Full Activity, you can craft items worth up to 7000 gp per week; you can continue to work as many weeks as you like to create an item (or a group of items) worth any amount, adding up to 7000 gp to the value for every week worked. You can even mix magic item creation with items created using Craft skills in a single activity. You must link this activity. So 1000gp for a free activity, 7000gp as a full activity.
Abyssal Stalker 07-11-07, 02:57 PM	Okay - I need an official list of people and the characters they want to enroll in the Denth campaign(s). If there's enough people and enough diversity, the second campaign is going to be run by Erithmu. Here's the details: ECL9-11 characters Start date: August 15th or August 22nd. Guild membership is not required, but it is fairly important to have most/all of the guilds represented. Any guild that does not have a member in the campaign will have a reasonable in-game explanation for their non-involvement that is up to the guildmaster of that guild to decide on. Here's the list of people who applied thus far - but I would like confirmation from everyone on the list to make it official: Sdentch the Angelic (ECL10, TheMagister) Half-Celestial Half-Orc Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 2/Half-Orc Paragon 3/Fighter 1, Neutral Good Auburn in Twilight (ECL10, Vathelokai) Air Gnome Conjurer (Rapid Summoner variant) 7/Loremaster 3, Neutral Good Owen Ir'Tolden (ECL10, Erithmu) Human Abjurer 5/Red Wizard 5, Neutral Retikos, the Paradparasha Sage (ECL10, SauroGrenom) Phrenic Gray Elf Conjurer 5, Elf Paragon 3, Neutral Vandelar the Red (ECL10, Soullord) Gray Elf Necromancer 10, Neutral Malither76 - any of his characters, alignment dependant (Baelin - Wood Elf Rogue 5/Assassin 5, Neutral Evil; Gareth - Half-Giant Psychic Warrior 9, Chaotic Good; Malik of Black Robe - Gray Elf Wizard 9, Lawful Evil) Nimbus (ECL11, Zevox) Wyrmling Silver Dragon, Lawful Good Willowmoon (ECL10, MitzaVolchenko) Unicorn Paladin of Freedom 2, Chaotic Good I am not planning on running one of my own characters, but if CEF doesn't have an entry, I might add Sir Valkin to 'Rith's campaign - we'll see. Other than that I see a WAR entry (Sdentch), TAO (Auburn, Vandelar, Owen), EHTC (Baelin, Malik), PSI (Gareth). I'll have to check the memberships of the others - though like I said - membership in a guild is certainly not required. Aerryl has been pulled as MWB doesn't have the time right now - so TLT doesn't have a current member. I could add Jonathon to the list. But I have to remind that he creates some restrictions what he is able to do - mainly no sunlight...
TelinArtho 07-11-07, 03:01 PM	It does kind of look like it might work out to be a good/neutral group and another group from the EHTC... and maybe 1 or 2 more... (Asran, Baelin or Malik, Jonathon)... Interesting if it ends up working like that. In any case, I'll add you to my list and we'll see how things pan out.
SoulLord 07-11-07, 04:06 PM	This is spelled out explicitly in the skills section of the rules: So 1000gp for a free activity, 7000gp as a full activity. thanks I was looking somewhere else for this.
The Dread Dormammu 07-11-07, 05:26 PM	I like him. Some notes: super enchanters are hard to run... Goblin City rocks. I could defintely run quests toward that end. You might want to get ahold of Istima over at PSI to help you out. Super Enchanters are hard to run but I really didn't want Snaga to be just another Necromancer or Evoker. Very much looking forward to a quest to found a Goblin City, or even better a "Goblintown" within Gladius. As a side note what do I still need to do before I can have my first fight in the arena?
MindWandererB 07-11-07, 05:50 PM	Send a PM to Pitlords with a link to your character and set the title line to read: "ECL 3: Ready for July 18; Free Activity Scribing Scrolls".
Eluria 07-11-07, 07:23 PM	Can I ask a random question: Can you use NPC services to prebuff Dissolving weapon on a weapon? I know it's a personal range power, but couldn't you envision giving your weapon to said NPC, paying, and accepting the weapon (carefully) back into your own possession? I'm sure the answer's no, just wondering why... :bump: Would love an answer on this, because I'm sure I'm overlooking something... thanks!
MindWandererB 07-11-07, 07:48 PM	:bump: Would love an answer on this, because I'm sure I'm overlooking something... thanks! It's because of the range: personal and "your weapon is charged with acid until you make a successful attack."
Zevox 07-11-07, 08:40 PM	Questlord Wanted The EHTC would like a questlord for a mission for two of its members. Zwei und'Vierzig and Yorick would like to go on a mission to retrieve goods dropped off for the Guild by Captain Marcus Tallfellow, a former member. Current plan would be to start it on the 25th. The characters are Mitza and Macbrea's, at ECL 6 and 7, so the mission would be EL 9 (with Yorick, the ECL 6, getting a surprise round every fight to compensate). Anyone interested, please respond here or PM myself or Guildmaster (EHTC). Zevox
Erithmu 07-11-07, 08:54 PM	Questlord Wanted The EHTC would like a questlord for a mission for two of its members. Zwei und'Vierzig and Yorick would like to go on a mission to retrieve goods dropped off for the Guild by Captain Marcus Tallfellow, a former member. Current plan would be to start it on the 25th. The characters are Mitza and Macbrea's, at ECL 6 and 7, so the mission would be EL 9 (with Yorick, the ECL 6, getting a surprise round every fight to compensate). Anyone interested, please respond here or PM myself or Guildmaster (EHTC). ZevoxI'm going to need some credits starting then ... PM being sent
Sjiggie 07-12-07, 10:36 AM	If a monster entry read Craft or Knowledge (any one) are both Craft and knowledge class skills and wich kowledge skill would be the class skill then all or do I have to choose one?
amalcon 07-12-07, 10:47 AM	I'd like to fix Jevian Rond's violation (not having the Wis to qualify for Speed of Thought) in such a way that he can keep the feat. This means altering his stats in such a way that he gains at least 3 Wisdom. Is this sort of thing permitted in order to fix a violation?
Erithmu 07-12-07, 10:51 AM	I'd like to fix Jevian Rond's violation (not having the Wis to qualify for Speed of Thought) in such a way that he can keep the feat. This means altering his stats in such a way that he gains at least 3 Wisdom. Is this sort of thing permitted in order to fix a violation? Make a post in the Training Hall explaining what you would like to do. (ie move 3 points around) and when it is approved, link the approval post to your character sheet.
TelinArtho 07-12-07, 10:56 AM	If a monster entry read Craft or Knowledge (any one) are both Craft and knowledge class skills and wich kowledge skill would be the class skill then all or do I have to choose one? Which monster are you looking at? I need to see it to make a decision on it.
hogarth 07-12-07, 10:59 AM	I'd like to fix Jevian Rond's violation (not having the Wis to qualify for Speed of Thought) in such a way that he can keep the feat. This means altering his stats in such a way that he gains at least 3 Wisdom. Is this sort of thing permitted in order to fix a violation? Yes, if it's a new character that sort of change should be free. I can think of one prominent character who started off life with Improved Grapple, subsequently lowered his Dex so that he no longer qualified, eventually got found out and raised his Dex again, then later got rid of Improved Grapple for Deflect Arrows!
Sjiggie 07-12-07, 11:12 AM	Which monster are you looking at? I need to see it to make a decision on it. Kuo-Tao mm page 163
TelinArtho 07-12-07, 11:19 AM	Kuo-Tao mm page 163 Figures it would be one of the few not in the SRD... Okay - if the wording is precisely "Craft or Knowledge (any one)" - then you pick one specific craft or knowledge as the class skill for the racial HD. That's the best I can do without seeing a direct copy of it in front of me.
Sjiggie 07-12-07, 11:22 AM	Yes it says precisely in the entry Craft or Knowledge (any one) so that means the craft skill or one knowledge skill.
lonewolf 07-12-07, 11:42 AM	Now that I have Telins tactics I can ask for advice on how to equip the guardian naga in his monster fight. It cannot use any expendables and most item slots cannot be used. I guess I could use the following slots: Amulet Headband Cloak armor/robe belt Anything else that makes sense? EDIT: also, I guess the naga CANNOT prebuff mage armor, right?
hogarth 07-12-07, 01:01 PM	What should the craft DC be for a spell component pouch? Or a (non-masterwork) crafting tool?
SoulLord 07-12-07, 01:19 PM	how much money you have? perhaps a circlet of blasting minor or major?
TelinArtho 07-12-07, 01:19 PM	The spell component pouch is probably a leatherworking check for the pouch - but I'm not sure that it should reduce the cost any. Most of the cost (in my opinion) comes from the many materials components needed (and that aren't crafted). But if you are spending a few ranks to be able to save 2.5gp per pouch - I guess I don't see much imbalance there...
hogarth 07-12-07, 01:27 PM	The spell component pouch is probably a leatherworking check for the pouch - but I'm not sure that it should reduce the cost any. Most of the cost (in my opinion) comes from the many materials components needed (and that aren't crafted). But if you are spending a few ranks to be able to save 2.5gp per pouch - I guess I don't see much imbalance there... The character in question is Balthazar Picsou. If he has a +7 Int modifier, he can craft items up to DC 15 using only improvised tools. I admit that saving 2 gp, 5 sp sounds pointless, but it's the principle of the thing for him -- why pay full price? I'm already kicking myself for buying a scythe for him instead of buying a tool and crafting a scythe (or even better, crafting a weaponmaking tool and then crafting a scythe). That's 9 gp that's been permanently lost!
MindWandererB 07-12-07, 01:40 PM	Now that I have Telins tactics I can ask for advice on how to equip the guardian naga in his monster fight. It cannot use any expendables and most item slots cannot be used. I guess I could use the following slots: Amulet Headband Cloak armor/robe belt Anything else that makes sense? EDIT: also, I guess the naga CANNOT prebuff mage armor, right? It can use tattoos. And it could indeed prebuff Mage Armor (9 hour duration). Cloak of Charisma or Resistance and Amulet of Natural Armor would be no-brainers. Monk's Belt would give it a moderately low-cost +5 to AC. I recommend against things like the circlet of blasting, because it grants an unrelated ability rather than enhancing what the naga already does.
SoulLord 07-12-07, 01:51 PM	It can use tattoos. And it could indeed prebuff Mage Armor (9 hour duration). Cloak of Charisma or Resistance and Amulet of Natural Armor would be no-brainers. Monk's Belt would give it a moderately low-cost +5 to AC. I recommend against things like the circlet of blasting, because it grants an unrelated ability rather than enhancing what the naga already does. killing pc?
TelinArtho 07-12-07, 04:00 PM	I swear the online roller just hates my questors... Even animals get criticals...
TelinArtho 07-12-07, 04:23 PM	Okay - I need an official list of people and the characters they want to enroll in the Denth campaign(s). If there's enough people and enough diversity, the second campaign is going to be run by Erithmu. Here's the details: ECL9-11 characters Start date: August 15th or August 22nd. Guild membership is not required, but it is fairly important to have most/all of the guilds represented. Any guild that does not have a member in the campaign will have a reasonable in-game explanation for their non-involvement that is up to the guildmaster of that guild to decide on. Here's the list of people who applied thus far - but I would like confirmation from everyone on the list to make it official: Sdentch the Angelic (ECL10, TheMagister) Half-Celestial Half-Orc Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 2/Half-Orc Paragon 3/Fighter 1, Neutral Good -- WAR Auburn in Twilight (ECL10, Vathelokai) Air Gnome Conjurer (Rapid Summoner variant) 7/Loremaster 3, Neutral Good -- TAO Loddick Saffrion (ECL11, Erithmu) Elan Ranger 1/Egoist 6/Slayer 4, Lawful Neutral -- TLT Lady Ephraim (ECL10, Erithmu) Human Wilder 4/Psychic Warrior 2/Elocator 3/Paladin of Freedom 1 -- CEF (Marcus Human Kineticist 8) --Owen Ir'Tolden (ECL10, Erithmu) Human Abjurer 5/Red Wizard 5, Neutral -- TAO Retikos, the Paradparasha Sage (ECL10, SauroGrenom) Phrenic Gray Elf Conjurer 5, Elf Paragon 3, Neutral (Cus Human Cleric of Madness and War 8) Vandelar the Red (ECL11, Soullord) Gray Elf Necromancer 11, Neutral -- TAO Gareth (ECL11, Malither76) Half-giant Psychic Warrior 10, Chaotic Good -- PSI Baelin "Called the Shadow" (ECL11, Malither76) Wood Elf Rogue 5/Assassin 6, Neutral Evil -- EHTC Malik of the Black Robe (ECL9, Malither76) Gray Elf Wizard 9, Lawful Evil -- EHTC Nimbus (ECL11, Zevox) Wyrmling Silver Dragon, Lawful Good Archdevil Asran (ECL11, Zevox), Half-fiend Human Ranger 2/Fighter 4/Blackguard 1 -- EHTC (Senorda Tiefling Transmuter 7/Loremaster 1) Willowmoon (ECL10, MitzaVolchenko) Unicorn Paladin of Freedom 2, Chaotic Good (cohort) Jonathon Raven Gravebound (ECL10, Abyssal Stalker), Vampire Spawn Monk 2, Lawful Evil -- EHTC (Lillian, Xeph Cleric of Magic and Darkness 8 I am not planning on running one of my own characters, but if CEF doesn't have an entry, I might add Sir Valkin to 'Rith's campaign - we'll see. Other than that I see a WAR entry (Sdentch), TAO (Auburn, Vandelar, Owen), EHTC (Baelin, Malik), PSI (Gareth). I'll have to check the memberships of the others - though like I said - membership in a guild is certainly not required. Aerryl has been pulled as MWB doesn't have the time right now - so TLT doesn't have a current member. Bumping this to indicate that I want people to respond to it... I would especially like to hear from TM and Vath - because I am assuming they are going - but neither have actually said anything of the kind... I am also limiting players to one character at the moment. Since Erithmu is running the other campaign - I'm giving him a slot in mine if he wants it. Currently, the breakdown I'm looking at is looking like this: Group 1: Sdentch, Auburn, x (Ephraim or Loddick), x, x -- These last two slots are up for grabs between Willowmoon, Nimbus or Gareth Group 2: Asran (if Nimbus doesn't go), Baelin or Malik (if Gareth doesn't go), Vandelar the Red, Retikos, Jonathon Raven Gravebound. While no one is a full divine caster with healing, Retikos and Jonathon both have cleric cohorts and Willowmoon and Sdentch both have healing ability. There's certainly a lot of cohorts though - which will make both groups balloon in size...
SoulLord 07-12-07, 04:55 PM	Confirming vandelar the red participation. If possible maybe Vandelar could be in Auburn group?
TelinArtho 07-12-07, 05:02 PM	Confirming vandelar the red participation. If possible maybe Vandelar could be in Auburn group? The problem is I need to cover alignment issues as much as possible. With Vandelar as a neutral character he fits in either group - but I have an abundance of selection for the first group, and not much for the second. I will consider it - but I'm not sure if it will be possible in the end (if Mitza declines and either Zevox or Malither don't mind playing their evil selections - is pretty much the only way to get it to work). Also - Vandelar does control skeletons - which are evil - and therefore would not be allowed in the good aligned side unless Mitza isn't there at the least (and might have issues from Sdentch/Nimbus - depending on how they play their characters).
Erithmu 07-12-07, 05:14 PM	... And Ephraim who is more probable to go in Group 1 than Loddick is, although I'm not fully set on that. Either way One of those characters will be in the campaign.
Zevox 07-12-07, 10:02 PM	Also - Vandelar does control skeletons - which are evil - and therefore would not be allowed in the good aligned side unless Mitza isn't there at the least (and might have issues from Sdentch/Nimbus - depending on how they play their characters). Nimbus would have some issues with Vandelar's skeleton, yeah. Not because its an undead (hes too young and curious to have any sort of inherent revulsion to them), but because its a Dragon skeleton in particular. I'm sure you can figure out how that works. And I do intend to play Nimbus rather than Asran if at all possible. He'd be more fun for this particular campaign, I think, and its the perfect way to introduce him to the arena and build up some back story and personality for him (being only 5 its tough to give him much of a back story for his time before Gladius). Asran will only go if I fail to build up enough credits to activate Nimbus in time. Zevox
NiQil 07-12-07, 11:24 PM	Attention! I am going to be moving this weekend. It is looking like I will be without internet for a few days. As such, there will be no prison update this weekend, and everyone (even those currently in prison) will be eligible for pairings next week. Next weekend I will do an update to cover the entire two week period.
Erithmu 07-12-07, 11:31 PM	Attention! I am going to be moving this weekend. It is looking like I will be without internet for a few days. As such, there will be no prison update this weekend, and everyone (even those currently in prison) will be eligible for pairings next week. Next weekend I will do an update to cover the entire two week period. JAILBREAK! *listens to the sirens in the background*
Vathelokai 07-13-07, 01:23 AM	I would especially like to hear from TM and Vath - because I am assuming they are going - but neither have actually said anything of the kind... I am also limiting players to one character at the moment. Since Erithmu is running the other campaign - I'm giving him a slot in mine if he wants it. Currently, the breakdown I'm looking at is looking like this: Group 1: Sdentch, Auburn, x (Ephraim or Loddick), x, x -- These last two slots are up for grabs between Willowmoon, Nimbus or Gareth Group 2: Asran (if Nimbus doesn't go), Baelin or Malik (if Gareth doesn't go), Vandelar the Red, Retikos, Jonathon Raven Gravebound. While no one is a full divine caster with healing, Retikos and Jonathon both have cleric cohorts and Willowmoon and Sdentch both have healing ability. There's certainly a lot of cohorts though - which will make both groups balloon in size... I'm most definitely in. I'm fascinated by the idea of a unicorn, a silver dragon, and an orc-angel in a party. Can't wait.... oh wait, I need credits. I can wait :rolleyes: .
templer10 07-13-07, 09:05 AM	Question - the light horse created by the Mount spell - come trained wit combat riding by any chance? if not - what counts as "in battle" for purpose of controlling your mount in battle?
MindWandererB 07-13-07, 12:56 PM	Hmm... I don't think I can manage to put Aerryl in a party (too complicated a character, plus she's strongly arena-focused, especially with her new animals), but Besthirah might work. She's personally evil, but TLT is on better terms with TAO and CEF--and what a party that would make! Although putting her in the evil party could be interesting if Asran went... I have Asran tied in to her backstory, and I've been waiting for an opportunity to have that pay off.
TelinArtho 07-13-07, 01:00 PM	Well - at this point I can safely say that the Good-aligned group is full unless Mitza is not going to go (and even then it might still be). If you want me to consider Besthirah for the evil party - that is certainly an option (and if it makes you feel better - there will be a representative of TAO there in Vandelar). She wouldn't work in the good-aligned party anyway with 2 paladins (since Ephraim is also more likely in that group than Loddick). Also, with Zevox preferring to use Nimbus (if he can manage the credits) and Malither preferring to use Gareth (though I suppose Gareth could go in the evil group...), it does mean I'm not sure if the evil party has enough power behind it to succeed. Asran is a meat-shield - and I guess Jonathon would be one as well, but the rest are all wizards...
MindWandererB 07-13-07, 01:28 PM	Well - at this point I can safely say that the Good-aligned group is full unless Mitza is not going to go (and even then it might still be). If you want me to consider Besthirah for the evil party - that is certainly an option (and if it makes you feel better - there will be a representative of TAO there in Vandelar). She wouldn't work in the good-aligned party anyway with 2 paladins (since Ephraim is also more likely in that group than Loddick). Also, with Zevox preferring to use Nimbus (if he can manage the credits) and Malither preferring to use Gareth (though I suppose Gareth could go in the evil group...), it does mean I'm not sure if the evil party has enough power behind it to succeed. Asran is a meat-shield - and I guess Jonathon would be one as well, but the rest are all wizards... Not what I'd prefer, but I could swing that. Although I'm not sure someone with 54 HP is as meaty as you'd like. It would be nice to have some tie-in with her to EHTC, to set up for Asran later, and I do want to have a TLT representative. Running her is simple--all I do is choose between shooting, grappling, and sneaking. She can't even talk in hybrid form.
TelinArtho 07-13-07, 01:43 PM	Well - I'm sorry I can only fit a certain number in each group. Add to that the alignment restrictions of paladins and those they associate with and it means that they need to be segregated. As for her not being a meat-shield - her impressive AC, DR and reflex saves should help fairly well in making her a decent meat-shield. Its not all about the HP after all.
MindWandererB 07-13-07, 02:17 PM	Well - I'm sorry I can only fit a certain number in each group. Add to that the alignment restrictions of paladins and those they associate with and it means that they need to be segregated. As for her not being a meat-shield - her impressive AC, DR and reflex saves should help fairly well in making her a decent meat-shield. Its not all about the HP after all. Sorry, I'm not complaining. Didn't mean to seem like I was. Just would'a been cool, is all. Stupid paladins. :)
TelinArtho 07-13-07, 02:21 PM	Well, I'm more appologizing to everyone. It sounds to me (from PMs and from the posts) that everyone who wants to go wants to be in the good group. I suspect this is due in no small part to the presence of the Auburn/Sdentch combination. Anyway, I'll consider her for the evil group and see if we have the room.
Zevox 07-13-07, 02:25 PM	Although putting her in the evil party could be interesting if Asran went... I have Asran tied in to her backstory, and I've been waiting for an opportunity to have that pay off. *blinks* You... do? Okay then... I really can't see how thats possible, but I guess it'd be interesting to see how that works. Zevox
MindWandererB 07-13-07, 02:28 PM	*blinks* You... do? Okay then... I really can't see how thats possible, but I guess it'd be interesting to see how that works. Zevox If you look at what I've already put in her background section, you can probably guess most of it. It's pretty indirect. And Telin, no problem if there's no room. Although it would be nice to have all guilds represented. I'm sure the campaign interest is mainly due to Sdentch. I know I've been reading her quest avidly.
SoulLord 07-13-07, 04:28 PM	A question on arena teams. can a paladin team up with an evil creature?
TelinArtho 07-13-07, 04:31 PM	A question on arena teams. can a paladin team up with an evil creature? As a party - I would say no. If it is a random assignment - yes (and it has happened before).
templer10 07-13-07, 05:06 PM	when a tower shield is used for total cover - does it protect fro magic missile? tower shield doesnt give cover to trageted spells But magic missile text say you cant use it on targets with Total cover.
Macbrea 07-13-07, 05:07 PM	It gives no cover against targeted spells therefore, it gives no cover against magic missile either.
TelinArtho 07-13-07, 05:19 PM	Okay - two things. Can someone spoiler block the options for other paladin mounts in the DMG? (I have a 3.0 DMG - but I'm not sure if it even has the alternate mounts (I don't think it does)). Also - can I get a second elder to comment on my Bracers of the Kraken (or Ring or whatver)? (I'll link it here in a moment...)
Macbrea 07-13-07, 05:42 PM	A paladin of 6th level or higher can use a celestial heavy warhorse, dire wolf, hippogriff, Large monstrous spider, Large shark, unicorn, celestial warpony, dire bat, dire badger, dire weasel, or giant lizard as a mount. At 7th level, the dire boar, dire wolverine, giant eagle, giant owl, pegasus, rhinoceros, and sea cat become available. At 8th level, a paladin can use a dire lion or a griffon as a mount. Paladin Level Bonus Nat. Str by Mount Availability HD Armor Adj. Int Level to Level+2 +2 +4 +1 6 Level + 3 to Level+5 +4 +6 +2 7 Level + 6 to Level+9 +6 +8 +3 8 Level + 10 or higher +8 +10 +4 9 You mean that quote?
TheMagister 07-13-07, 07:12 PM	If you look at what I've already put in her background section, you can probably guess most of it. It's pretty indirect. And Telin, no problem if there's no room. Although it would be nice to have all guilds represented. I'm sure the campaign interest is mainly due to Sdentch. I know I've been reading her quest avidly. {blush} @Telin - hell heavens YES, Sdentch is in. Taking down Denth is the only reason I brought her back! If she ever sees the inside of the arena, I'll be very sad (mostly because she'd be creamed). TM
MindWandererB 07-13-07, 07:13 PM	Okay - two things. Can someone spoiler block the options for other paladin mounts in the DMG? (I have a 3.0 DMG - but I'm not sure if it even has the alternate mounts (I don't think it does)). Also - can I get a second elder to comment on my Bracers of the Kraken (or Ring or whatver)? (I'll link it here in a moment...) I'm also uncomfortable with swift action activations on items. The ring of feather fall, for instance, is overpriced: an unlimited-use, use-activated feather fall effect should be 2,000 gp. This one is 1) involuntarily triggered only, 2) affects only the wearer, and 3) costs more despite those limitations. Boots of speed are probably a better baseline for such things, since it's "correctly" priced (CL 10 * SL 3 * 2000 / 5), but they operate differently as well. In a home game, I'd probably allow the item you're proposing, especially since you don't have the option to not use it. But here, it's just a little too far off-base to be considered core.
TheMagister 07-13-07, 07:37 PM	p.s. – that's around 1000 GP in total for this fight? 600 gp in expendables (1/2 was the potion of invis, and 50gp was the PfE that I shouldn't have said to use). He also uses dorje charges, which come out to: Hammer - 90 gp/charge, Offensive Precognition - 120 gp/charge, and Offensive Prescience - 30 gp/charge. So, 600 + 90 + 120 + 30 = 840 gp. Not quite 1000. And 300 less without invis (the use of which is rare). Rubi doesn't need much in the way of equipment, being focused on unarmed melee combat the way he is. After this 3FC, I'm wondering what the devil to do with all his leftover cash... TM
TheMagister 07-13-07, 11:38 PM	Aight. I've got a (possible) problem. Huge creature with space/reach of 15'/10' vs. Large Creature with polearm. Looks like this: http://www.hwx.it/coco/coco.php;v=1;map=temple;a=Me,L,10,22,Me; b=Bad,H,22,22,16,22,Badguy;n=Threaten,11 ,21,5;style=shttp://www.hwx.it/coco/coco.php;v=1;map=temple;a=Me,L,10,22,Me; b=Bad,H,22,22,13,22,Badguy;n=Threaten,11 ,21,5;style=shttp://www.hwx.it/coco/coco.php;v=1;map=temple;a=Me,L,10,22,Me; b=Bad,H,22,22,12,22,Badguy;n=Threaten,11 ,21,5;style=s I just wanna make certain that I'm reading the AoO rules correctly. A Huge monster's whole body (all 15'/15' of it) has to leave a threatened area before it provokes? So a huge creature can just waltz thru a 20' reach? Doesn't seem right.
MindWandererB 07-14-07, 02:59 AM	Aight. I've got a (possible) problem. Huge creature with space/reach of 15'/10' vs. Large Creature with polearm. Looks like this: http://www.hwx.it/coco/coco.php;v=1;map=temple;a=Me,L,10,22,Me; b=Bad,H,22,22,16,22,Badguy;n=Threaten,11 ,21,5;style=shttp://www.hwx.it/coco/coco.php;v=1;map=temple;a=Me,L,10,22,Me; b=Bad,H,22,22,13,22,Badguy;n=Threaten,11 ,21,5;style=shttp://www.hwx.it/coco/coco.php;v=1;map=temple;a=Me,L,10,22,Me; b=Bad,H,22,22,12,22,Badguy;n=Threaten,11 ,21,5;style=s I just wanna make certain that I'm reading the AoO rules correctly. A Huge monster's whole body (all 15'/15' of it) has to leave a threatened area before it provokes? So a huge creature can just waltz thru a 20' reach? Doesn't seem right. Not quite the way we've been playing it, but you seem to have the play right. Basically, there has to exist at least one square that was occupied by the monster earlier in the move, and ceases to be later. The bad guy would indeed have to leave at least one square behind it to provoke. (I'm not necesarily saying this is RAW, but it's the way we've been ruling, and it's a solid argument.)
Malither76 07-14-07, 03:55 AM	can you use the discount free activity in order to pay for an upgrade, you know bumping you weapon from +1 to +2, I know it still wouldn't take effect until after cycle just wondering thanks
hogarth 07-14-07, 09:17 AM	can you use the discount free activity in order to pay for an upgrade, you know bumping you weapon from +1 to +2, I know it still wouldn't take effect until after cycle just wondering thanks Sure -- I think it applies to any purchase other than raw materials.
McJarvis 07-14-07, 10:37 AM	Update-> Still enjoying my time off. Every Monday and Wednesday I manage to think to myself at least once, "Man, it's nice not having any deadlines looming over me". But on the other hand-> half of work on Friday was spent jotting notes on Wilder variant ideas of mine. I think I need a few more weeks off, but I'm prolly gonna be back. ~McJ~
Vathelokai 07-14-07, 10:44 AM	Update-> Still enjoying my time off. Every Monday and Wednesday I manage to think to myself at least once, "Man, it's nice not having any deadlines looming over me". But on the other hand-> half of work on Friday was spent jotting notes on Wilder variant ideas of mine. I think I need a few more weeks off, but I'm prolly gonna be back. ~McJ~ Great! As one of my native friends told me, "remember that solitude is good medicine too."
Hirumajoe 07-14-07, 10:54 AM	Update-> Still enjoying my time off. Every Monday and Wednesday I manage to think to myself at least once, "Man, it's nice not having any deadlines looming over me". But on the other hand-> half of work on Friday was spent jotting notes on Wilder variant ideas of mine. I think I need a few more weeks off, but I'm prolly gonna be back. ~McJ~ Good to hear. I'm personally taking time off in order to move cross country (East Coast to West Coast). Thus my access to the internet is very limited these days. Hopefully be back in late August early September myself.
Sjiggie 07-14-07, 05:34 PM	I'm trying out monsters as character and I made these two any comment is welcome. Alazphraxion a pseudodragon who is taking levels in psychic warrior and more racial HD. For the moment he is relying on his sting to deliver the poison to his enemies. We've the rule here that dragons can't use weapon right? So I'm still looking for an effective way to CdG sleeping opponents. Kuo-Tao this nameless Kuo-Tao is going to take levels in monk and psionic fist and is a grappling build. For the moment he is carrying a morningstar to be a bit of a threat in the arena but will discard it soon after it levels and takes his first level in monk. His AC will be high because of the natural armor and the armor bonus from monk. Next level he will have a base AC of 24 before buffs add the mage armor and Force screen and you have an AC of 32 with only 2 buffs. I'm don't know how I should treat the Pincer staff. It is an exotic weapon but it doesn't have a cost listed. Anyone an idea? Here is the MM entry of the pincer staff. Many Kuo-Tao fighters and all whips of 7th level of higher carry this Large exotic weapon. A pincer staff deals 1d10 points of bludgeoning damage, threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20, and deals double damage on a critical hit. It has 10-foot reach and cannot be used against an adjacent opponent. A wielder that hits an opponent of at least Small but no larger than Large can attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking attacks of opportunity. If the wielder wins the grapple check, the staff establishes a hold and grabs the opponent, dealing 1d10 points of damage each round the hold is maintained.
stimpydoda 07-14-07, 06:18 PM	I like the Kuo-Tao idea. Has a couple of cool things going for him. Ac is nice and makes up for the lack of hp. The pincer staff is good too. I think after 1 or 2 lvs of monk you could get a lot of mileage from cleric or druid. Note: The adhesive trait can be pretty good, but note that you need to have a shield with the film on it to use.
Sjiggie 07-14-07, 06:25 PM	I like the Kuo-Tao idea. Has a couple of cool things going for him. Ac is nice and makes up for the lack of hp. The pincer staff is good too. I think after 1 or 2 lvs of monk you could get a lot of mileage from cleric or druid. Note: The adhesive trait can be pretty good, but note that you need to have a shield with the film on it to use. I can't use a shield when he has it first level of monk or I would lose al my monk abilities including the AC bonus. I haven't planned him to level 20 but I'm thinking to get monk to 3rd level take some levels in psionic fist for expansion and cheaper inertial armor stones. After that I might take a level in cleric with the magic&travel domain for some nice buff spells in scroll/wand form.
hogarth 07-14-07, 06:28 PM	I'm don't know how I should treat the Pincer staff. It is an exotic weapon but it doesn't have a cost listed. Anyone an idea? I think the prevailing opinion is that you can't buy anything that doesn't have a cost listed (e.g. pixie memory loss arrows, salamander metal spears, hammers of thunderbolts).
TheMagister 07-14-07, 06:44 PM	I think the prevailing opinion is that you can't buy anything that doesn't have a cost listed (e.g. pixie memory loss arrows, salamander metal spears, hammers of thunderbolts). He doesn't have to "buy" it; his monster comes with it. He can pay to improve it, though.
hogarth 07-14-07, 09:09 PM	He doesn't have to "buy" it; his monster comes with it. He can pay to improve it, though. I'd be interested in seeing that rule that states monster PCs come with bonus weapons and/or armour. I'm not saying such a rule doesn't exist, but it seems to fly counter to the "no memory loss arrows for pixies" rules. Macbrea -- did you give your troglodyte a free javelin?
TheMagister 07-14-07, 09:20 PM	It's in the monster fight rules somewhere...I'll go look it up and edit it into this post. Yep, that's what I remembered: Pitlords assign monster equipment according to p127 DMG table 4-23 (or see table below) where the CR of the monster is the "NPC level". This value is then modified by the 'Treasure' entry of the monster in the Monster Manual. An entry of 'Standard' means the worth of the monster equipment is not modified. Double Standard means the monster gets twice of what is listed in the table below; 'Triple' or 'Half' should be self-explanatory. A treasure entry of 'None' means the monster has no equipment at all. Furthermore, any item that is listed in the Monster Manual entry is automatically assigned for free to the monster. Pitlords may replace these items with more efficient ones if they want; in this case, they have to add the price for the removed item to the total treasure. It is also possible to upgrade an existing item. I don't see why it'd be different for a PC. I mean, if a player didn't like the listed equipment, they could always cash it in and replace it with something else.
hogarth 07-14-07, 10:34 PM	I don't see why it'd be different for a PC. Hmmm...I thought there was a rule saying exactly what a PC starts with. Yup. Found it: Your first character starts at ECL 3, with 3200 XP and 3000 GP. Doesn't say anything about a gnoll starting with a free shortbow or a lizardfolk starting with a free heavy shield.
TheMagister 07-14-07, 10:46 PM	Well, I can't argue with that. Don't see why it'd be different for a PC lizarfolk than it would be for a monster lizardfolk. They both climb out of same swamp with the same tools. {shrug}
TelinArtho 07-14-07, 11:07 PM	Well TM - if it wasn't - then I guess I'd be starting my ECL12 bralani with his free holy sword and holy composite longbow... (nothing like a free 36k in equipment to help jumpstart your career). The pincer staff might need some review - but I'm not sure if it would be available. If you want it badly though - the route is through the council I'm sure.
stimpydoda 07-15-07, 12:19 AM	I was just wondering how FFA's and Interleagues come about. Are they only made to fit everyone in or are they random? I was also wondering if players could note whether they mind them and also if pitlords could not if they mind them so we could see more produced each week. Just a thought... :)
Vathelokai 07-15-07, 12:37 AM	Check this out... Submitting to Dragon magazine or Dungeon magazine (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/news/20070711a)
Vathelokai 07-15-07, 12:38 AM	I was just wondering how FFA's and Interleagues come about. Are they only made to fit everyone in or are they random? I was also wondering if players could note whether they mind them and also if pitlords could not if they mind them so we could see more produced each week. Just a thought... :) I believe they are rolled randomly. As a pitlord you can send requests to Pitlords. It will be listed next to your name. As a player, I don't believe you can request them. However, you can spend one credit to 'challenge' another player, thus guaranteeing you get a fight like that.
stimpydoda 07-15-07, 12:43 AM	*Sigh* I really want a FFA, sounds like fun.
MindWandererB 07-15-07, 01:05 AM	Check this out... Submitting to Dragon magazine or Dungeon magazine (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/news/20070711a) That's actually an re-post of something that's been up for a long time. They occasionally put it up as "news" so people get it every once in a while. FYI, there's also this: RPG Design Test (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20050930b) as another way to try to get a job there.
Vathelokai 07-15-07, 01:07 AM	Hrmmm... might need to take a few weeks off from CoCo.... no time soon mind you.
templer10 07-15-07, 02:41 AM	*Sigh* I really want a FFA, sounds like fun. i always seems to get 1 per week somehow.... (stares meanly at MWB) But then i dont care.... more xp....
stimpydoda 07-15-07, 03:13 AM	i always seems to get 1 per week somehow.... (stares meanly at MWB) But then i dont care.... more xp.... So....what you're saying is......if I make MWB not like me, I'll get some FFA's?! Thanks! :D
MindWandererB 07-15-07, 03:17 AM	Don't blame me, blame the pairingsmaker. It's all random. Well, mostly anyway--monster fights can become interleague fights when there's a pitlord shortage. @stimpy: FFAs happen at ECLs 4+ only. So you'll need to rack up a level on someone first. It's only a matter of time after that. It's still random, though--I see Auburn only got into 3 in her course to ECL 10, but nearly half of Loddick's fights have been multiplayer!
Vathelokai 07-15-07, 10:08 AM	I'm looking into making a grig (sprite: fey) character and I want to double check I have everything right. Anyone care to look over it. Grig in SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/sprite.htm#grig) Tiny: +2 AC/attacks, -8 grapple, +8 hide, height 1.5 ft, weight 1 lbs, space 2 1/2 ft, reach 0 Fey (sprite): lowlight vision, prof. with simple weapons/shortsword/longbow Fey HD: d6, bab as wizard, good refl and will, 6+int skill pts spd 20, fly 40 poor nat armor +2 attacks: as weapon Spell-Like Abilities: 3/day: disguise self, entangle (DC ?), invisibility (self only), pyrotechnics (DC ?), ventriloquism (DC ?). Caster level 9th. The save DCs are Charisma-based. damage reduction 5/cold iron SR 17 Str -6, Dex +8, Con +2, Int +0, Wis +2, Cha +4 Racial Bonus feats: dodge, weapon finesse Skills: +8 racial bonus on Jump checks, +5 racial bonus on Move Silently checks in a forest setting. All sprites have a +2 racial bonus on Search, Spot, and Listen checks. Languages: Sylvan. Bonus language options: common Alignment: always neutral good Race HD: 1 (can be replaced with a class HD) Level adj: 3
Erithmu 07-15-07, 11:09 AM	Man ... no wonder Loddick's record is so ... uninspiring ... Either way he still is scary. Also regarding Dungon and Dragon magazines ... weren't one of those being removed from print? Or did they just move them all inhouse?
Vathelokai 07-15-07, 11:38 AM	Man ... no wonder Loddick's record is so ... uninspiring ... Either way he still is scary. Also regarding Dungon and Dragon magazines ... weren't one of those being removed from print? Or did they just move them all inhouse? As far as I know, they moved both in house and are publishing both exclusively online.
NiQil 07-15-07, 12:58 PM	As far as I know, they moved both in house and are publishing both exclusively online. Close, but incorrect. Both Dungeon and Dragon had been licensed to Paizo to publish. That license comes up for renewal in Aug/Sept, and WotC chose not to renew the license. As such, the magazines are being discontinued. WotC has stated that to replace them and their content, they will be launching a Digital Initiative, which will be some sort of e-zine, based on what is known currently. Paizo is launching their own mag, Pathfinder, which will allow them to continue to publish adventure paths like they did in the other mags.
hogarth 07-15-07, 01:30 PM	Notes: in the MM, [the grigs'] hide and move silent are higher than possible for their HD Not in my (3.5) Monster Manual: +16 Hide = 4 ranks, +4 dex, +8 size +8 Move Silently = 4 ranks, +4 dex But the Monster Manual errata gave them the Stealthy feat (in exchange for Weapon Finesse) so their final Hide and Move Silently modifiers are +18 and +10.
Vathelokai 07-15-07, 01:50 PM	Not in my (3.5) Monster Manual: +16 Hide = 4 ranks, +4 dex, +8 size +8 Move Silently = 4 ranks, +4 dex But the Monster Manual errata gave them the Stealthy feat (in exchange for Weapon Finesse) so their final Hide and Move Silently modifiers are +18 and +10. Hrm... in the online SRD they have stealthy as a regular feat, and still have weapon finesse as a bonus feat. Thanks. I'll go look that up. EDIT: OK, I get it now... Some creatures that have this feat lack the +1 base attack bonus prerequisite. Since bonus feats do not require the creature to fulfill any feat prerequisites (see page 301 in the Monster Manual), make the Weapon Finesse feat a bonus feat and add an additional feat (see the table below).
hogarth 07-15-07, 01:54 PM	Hrm... in the online SRD they have stealthy as a regular feat, and still have weapon finesse as a bonus feat. Thanks. I'll go look that up. Yes, the online SRD version is the correct "post errata" version (i.e. Stealthy is a regular feat, Weapon Finesse is a bonus feat). The MM version is the incorrect "pre errata" version (i.e. Weapon Finesse is a regular feat; however, a grig doesn't qualify for it because of its +0 BAB).
Rauul 07-15-07, 02:13 PM	can someone send me the fight links for Shadow and corrupter from last week, In PM... I am on a borrowed computer and only have limited time on it... thanks in advance.
Vathelokai 07-15-07, 02:20 PM	can someone send me the fight links for Shadow and corrupter from last week, In PM... I am on a borrowed computer and only have limited time on it... thanks in advance. These the right ones? Shadow http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12985987&postcount=1062 Corruptor http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12992825&postcount=1066
Sjiggie 07-15-07, 02:45 PM	I'm looking into making a grig (sprite: fey) character and I want to double check I have everything right. Anyone care to look over it. Grig in SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/sprite.htm#grig) Tiny: +2 AC/attacks, -8 grapple, +8 hide, height 1.5 ft, weight 1 lbs, space 2 1/2 ft, reach 0 Fey (sprite): lowlight vision, prof. with simple weapons/shortsword/longbow Fey HD: d6, bab as wizard, good refl and will, 6+int skill pts spd 20, fly 40 poor nat armor +2 attacks: as weapon Spell-Like Abilities: 3/day: disguise self, entangle (DC ?), invisibility (self only), pyrotechnics (DC ?), ventriloquism (DC ?). Caster level 9th. The save DCs are Charisma-based. damage reduction 5/cold iron SR 17 Str -6, Dex +8, Con +2, Int +0, Wis +2, Cha +4 Racial Bonus feats: dodge, weapon finesse Skills: +8 racial bonus on Jump checks, +5 racial bonus on Move Silently checks in a forest setting. All sprites have a +2 racial bonus on Search, Spot, and Listen checks. Languages: Sylvan. Bonus language options: common Alignment: always neutral good Race HD: 1 (can be replaced with a class HD) Level adj: 3 You got most right but you forgot any aspect that will improve this character. It has spell resistance of 17+class HD. I think you will like that;)
Vathelokai 07-15-07, 03:44 PM	You got most right but you forgot any aspect that will improve this character. It has spell resistance of 17+class HD. I think you will like that;) I wondered about that myself. Most entries have an X+ HD for spell resistance, but the grig has a flat number. Anyone have insight on this?
MindWandererB 07-15-07, 03:59 PM	I wondered about that myself. Most entries have an X+ HD for spell resistance, but the grig has a flat number. Anyone have insight on this? Actually, very few monsters have an HD-adjustable SR. The main exceptions are the creatures with "...as Characters" or similar sections (e.g. Pixie, drow, svirfneblin). Templates and class feature allies are the other major exceptions that I can think of. Edit: The implication, since every monster with SR and an "...as Characters" section improves its SR with class levels, is that class levels would improve SR for any race, but the rules never actually come out and say that. Could be ruled either way, with improvement being an inference and no improvement being the by-the-book interpretation.
Sjiggie 07-15-07, 04:13 PM	I've always believed that Spell resistance goes up as you gain additional HD. Every creature that grants spell resistance and has the "as characters" section says so and every template with spell resistance increases it with HD gained. That is the way I would handle it in my TT games if someone decides to play a race with spellresistance.
lonewolf 07-15-07, 05:13 PM	It was already ruled in the CoCo that it should work that way. There was a discussion about it when I started playing Kitty.
templer10 07-15-07, 06:03 PM	Question - when the handle animal allies rules were redone the formula about Cha(max)= Ranks in HA + Cha Modifier + Feat Bonuses - what exacly does that affect? i.e. - if i want to bring 2 diffrent animals int o1 fight do i need to add ther cha(cost) toghter?
Zevox 07-15-07, 06:13 PM	Question - when the handle animal allies rules were redone the formula about Cha(max)= Ranks in HA + Cha Modifier + Feat Bonuses - what exacly does that affect? i.e. - if i want to bring 2 diffrent animals int o1 fight do i need to add ther cha(cost) toghter? Your cHA limits how many handle animal allies you can possess - you cannot have creatures whose total cHA cost exceeds your cHA value (so for instance, Ceilia Durrol has a cHA of 10 (9rnks -1cha +2feat) and a Hippogriff HA ally (cHA 10), so she cannot gain any more HA allies at all unless she were to raise her cHA). The rules for how many allies you can bring into a fight are unchanged. Zevox
templer10 07-15-07, 06:18 PM	Your cHA limits how many handle animal allies you can possess - you cannot have creatures whose total cHA cost exceeds your cHA value (so for instance, Ceilia Durrol has a cHA of 10 (9rnks -1cha +2feat) and a Hippogriff HA ally (cHA 10), so she cannot gain any more HA allies at all unless she were to raise her cHA). The rules for how many allies you can bring into a fight are unchanged. Zevox so i essentially has to let an animal go (i.e. lose it) to gain a new one when iam upgrading?
Zevox 07-15-07, 06:21 PM	so i essentially has to let an animal go (i.e. lose it) to gain a new one when iam upgrading? I'm not sure what you mean. Upgrading what? Perhaps if you gave the exact situation you're looking at I could answer appropriatelu. Zevox
templer10 07-15-07, 06:25 PM	i mean - if i currently have a handle animal ally and when i level and get more handle animal ranks i want to get a stronger one i have to release the old ally "into the wild" (trained and all) so i can get a new handle animal ally using the new max handle animal ranks. the thing with that cha(max) is that it makes having more that one ally all but impossible since generaly you want to have the best one you can get. EDIT - are you sure about what you are saying zeovx - becuase i see MWB's Aerryl having a dire wolf (+09 cha) and an elite Rhinoceros (+13 cha) and a spider eater which iam not if was bought or quested for.
Zevox 07-15-07, 06:29 PM	i mean - if i currently have a handle animal ally and when i level and get more handle animal ranks i want to get a stronger one i have to release the old ally "into the wild" (trained and all) so i can get a new handle animal ally using the new max handle animal ranks. the thing with taht cha(max) is taht it makes haveing more tthat one ally all but impossible since generaly you want to have the best one you can get. Unless the old ally and the new one combined fit within your cHA, yes, you will need to release the old one. You just need to decide which one(s) you want more carefully now because of this. Well, either that or just have a huge charisma score, maxed out HA, and the animal affinity and skill focus feats. Zevox
McJarvis 07-16-07, 08:13 AM	Is anyone else as excited about that Mind's Eye stuff as I am? :-)
Sjiggie 07-16-07, 08:28 AM	Yes I'm when it gets accepted I wan't to try out a build involving the psychic weapon master
lonewolf 07-16-07, 08:59 AM	I posted this in this weeks fight thread, but I guess it really belongs here: Is a targeted Dispel Magic a direct attack for the purpose of sanctuary? => can someone who has already failed his will save against sanctuary try to dispel it?
hogarth 07-16-07, 09:21 AM	Is anyone else as excited about that Mind's Eye stuff as I am? :-) I have mixed feelings about it. On the one hand, there is some interesting stuff in there (I think the meditant is interesting, for instance). But on the other hand, every expansion (psionics, UA) gets a bit further away from what I would call "Core" (PHB, DMG, MM). So when I see someone on the CharOpt board asking about "Core" character builds, I sometimes point to this forum for examples but I have to add the caveat that maybe 70% of builds have at least one non-core element (psionics, mostly). I'm also not crazy about adding more options that cost credits, but I can see the point to it, I guess. Also, as far as I know the Mind's Eye stuff is not Open Content (e.g. I couldn't find a notice on the Psychic Theurge saying "this is Open Content", but maybe I was looking in the wrong place). I don't know if that makes a difference, but I'm just saying.
McJarvis 07-16-07, 09:44 AM	Also, as far as I know the Mind's Eye stuff is not Open Content (e.g. I couldn't find a notice on the Psychic Theurge saying "this is Open Content", but maybe I was looking in the wrong place). I don't know if that makes a difference, but I'm just saying. Perhaps it isn't open content insofar as you can't sell products that reprint the info or refer to it, but certainly there isn't a place where you can buy the articles. [They are just downloadable web content] Regarding Char Op boards/Optimization: I don't really bother to point out CoCo to optimizers since I don't see CoCo and CharOp as compatible. There are alot of assumptions they undergo that are not only not on-par with CoCo[Buff lead times, knowledge of enemies, PC enemies, # of enemies, etc], but others that are entirely invalid. full casting above all other things, whether psionics are overpowered, etc, etc] Then consider that these assumptions seem to change depending on what each individual member is subjected to at table top.... And then, perhaps the biggest difficulty of all, the CharOp people write in level 20 builds almost exclusively, whereas we deal with level 10 builds. Personally I think our system is more useful to most players[I read somewhere that the average D&D campaign is at ECL6], so the CharOp forums are more of a curiosity to me at this point than anything actually useful in practice. I suppose if you want even further proof: look at what is really important here. Mobility[not the feat, mind you] & ranged attacks seem to be King. Of course, with the new Mind's Eye content things might change. [I'm thinking of a deep strike/expanding/reaching[new power]/fleet of foot-ing build]
lonewolf 07-16-07, 09:55 AM	Ignore this
Erithmu 07-16-07, 10:11 AM	I posted this in this weeks fight thread, but I guess it really belongs here: Is a targeted Dispel Magic a direct attack for the purpose of sanctuary? => can someone who has already failed his will save against sanctuary try to dispel it? I would say that a targeted Dispel magic at the person Sanc is affecting would not be possible. However, the option to cast a targeted dispel at Sanc alone (identified through something like spellcraft) would be allowed as the Dispel is not targeting the person.
Zevox 07-16-07, 11:35 AM	Is anyone else as excited about that Mind's Eye stuff as I am? :-) Eh, I don't know. I've been looking over some of it, and while a few are interesting, I am worried about whether some are balanced. The Wilder variant that takes out their Volatile Mind ability and gives them Expanded Knowledge feats at every level they would get or improve that ability, for instance, is pretty insane - lose one rarely-used weak defensive ability for several free copies of one of the most useful psionic feats in the game? Who wouldn't want to do that? Then theres the Crystal Master, which seems as though some of its crystals might be overpowered if I'm reading them correctly. The ones that boost ability scores, mostly - if, as I think is the case, the boost they provide goes up with every 2 crystals regardless of what those crystals are, I would definitely call that overpowered (if it only goes up if those new crystals are the ones that boost the ability score, thats another story - and to a lesser degree I'd say this applies to all the stones that go up in power this way). The Power Resistance one seems questionable at least as well. Then theres those Psychic Medition and Deep Psychic Meditation feats, which are really setting off alarm bells in my mind. Yeah they're only good for an hour, but they're far more potent than any other feats I can think of. +2 to three ability scores? Power resistance? +3 natural armor? And the Deep Meditation one allows you to have more than one active and use them more times per day? And neither has any meaningful prerequisite? Damn. Toss in that easy to qualify for PrC that makes them even more usable and long-lasting and only costs 1 manifester level and I think things get way out of hand. Zevox
McJarvis 07-16-07, 11:54 AM	Eh, I don't know. I've been looking over some of it, and while a few are interesting, I am worried about whether some are balanced. The Wilder variant that takes out their Volatile Mind ability and gives them Expanded Knowledge feats at every level they would get or improve that ability, for instance, is pretty insane - lose one rarely-used weak defensive ability for several free copies of one of the most useful psionic feats in the game? Who wouldn't want to do that? There are a few UA variants that are the case in this regard as well: I don't see it as a game-breaking problem. Then theres the Crystal Master, which seems as though some of its crystals might be overpowered if I'm reading them correctly. The ones that boost ability scores, mostly - if, as I think is the case, the boost they provide goes up with every 2 crystals regardless of what those crystals are, I would definitely call that overpowered (if it only goes up if those new crystals are the ones that boost the ability score, thats another story - and to a lesser degree I'd say this applies to all the stones that go up in power this way). The Power Resistance one seems questionable at least as well. I'd agree on the PR one[though only tentatively], but the stat boosts aren't that great, considering the Warmind effectively gives this with a 1 level dip. [granted for non-casting stats, but the Red Wizard boosts save DC's far more than those caster stat +'s ever will] +3 to a casting stat is nothing to really salivate over, though, since it only lasts so long as your focused[and thus psionic meditation/deeper psionic med can't be abused]. If it was an item I'd be worried: but it's a non-combative prestige class... Then theres those Psychic Medition and Deep Psychic Meditation feats, which are really setting off alarm bells in my mind. Yeah they're only good for an hour, but they're far more potent than any other feats I can think of. +2 to three ability scores? Power resistance? +3 natural armor? And the Deep Meditation one allows you to have more than one active and use them more times per day? And neither has any meaningful prerequisite? Damn. Toss in that easy to qualify for PrC that makes them even more usable and long-lasting and only costs 1 manifester level and I think things get way out of hand. Zevox Note that you lose the meditation if your hp drop to 0 at any point during the day. After that, you need to spend 8 hours per focus you want mid-cycle. [So while they are powerful: once you lose a fight you're SOL on class features for the rest of your 3FC] edit-> Honestly, I'm kind of interested in making a psionic healer now. I was looking through the options, and it seems I can whip something up that has at least the same initial effectiveness as a full-cleric, if not the lasting value. The fast healing/DR on that healer prestige class is quite the attractive offer!
Zevox 07-16-07, 12:06 PM	There are a few UA variants that are the case in this regard as well: I don't see it as a game-breaking problem. I can't think of any of them that are that one-sided in terms of a low cost and high gain. Even the simple Cleric variant that replaces the little-used turn/rebuke undead only gives the fairly minor Aura of Courage and Smite Good/Evil abilities. This one takes a minor defensive ability you'd almost never use and gives you not only several free feats, but one of the most flexible, powerful feats a psionic character can get, and definitely the most useful possible one for a Wilder, who is so short on powers. I'd agree on the PR one[though only tentatively], but the stat boosts aren't that great, considering the Warmind effectively gives this with a 1 level dip. [granted for non-casting stats, but the Red Wizard boosts save DC's far more than those caster stat +'s ever will] War Mind gives you those boosts only for 1 minute 3 times per day. This gives them for as long as you have your Psionic focus. Thats a huge duration difference - hell, with a high concentration and Psionic Meditation, a Psion could effectively never be without his psionic focus, thus making the boost effectively permanent (and theres at least one Psion in the arena that can do that now - my Istima). And this would effect not only save DCs, but pp as well, and with less sacrifice than the Red Wizard requires (one ML vs three entire magic schools?), not to mention you could get stones for other ability scores (your typical Psion would definitely get a kick out of the con one) and get these benefits to multiple abilities at the same time. Note that you lose the meditation if your hp drop to 0 at any point during the day. After that, you need to spend 8 hours per focus you want mid-cycle. [So while they are powerful: once you lose a fight you're SOL on class features for the rest of your 3FC] True, and perhaps that might be seen as a mitigating factor, but I still think its more than a little questionable. Those feats are definitely beyond any pre-epic feat I can think of in terms of benefits, with the arguable exception of Leadership alone, and having that PrC to make them even better is setting off my cheese senses. Zevox
McJarvis 07-16-07, 12:20 PM	I can't think of any of them that are that one-sided in terms of a low cost and high gain. I know you're not a fan: but the whirling frenzy barbarian comes to mind. There are a couple other barb variants that come to mind as well[Wolf Totem for starters] The Air Goblin is a minor example of something with only benefits[for the most part: being breathless is pretty damn good though], and the jungle halfling's poison use really blows the downsides out of the water[IMO]. Both of the evil Paladin variants are argueable as well: the 3rd level auras are written to work exactly like courage aura except they added in pretty substantial benefits. The planar ranger gets a celestial/infernal AC: which I would consider a pretty major upbeat compared to losing some knowledge skills & taking a penalty on wild empathy And, of course, the paragon classes[Human Specifically] offer such boni that if they didn't cost creds, I'm sure there would be a large influx of them. I guess the point of all of this is essentially: I don't think the variant is broken. It is a boon to wilders, for sure, but it isn't so great of a boon as to "break" the wilder by any stretch of the imagination. [Especially considering how spaced out the abilities are]
Zevox 07-16-07, 12:44 PM	I know you're not a fan: but the whirling frenzy barbarian comes to mind. I don't think its quite on the level of this Wilder variant, but you're right, that one is pretty substantial. I really wish we had changed it when we added it, like we did with some of the others. There are a couple other barb variants that come to mind as well[Wolf Totem for starters] Also powerful, but not as much as this. Losing Uncanny Dodge is something at least (the ability to gain dex to AC while flat-footed isn't something I'd discount), and Improved Trip is the only one the two benefits that matters here (save for the off chance of someone taking that Barbarian variant to level 5 then going Slayer). The Air Goblin is a minor example of something with only benefits[for the most part: being breathless is pretty damn good though] I don't know - I'd call the loss of their +4 ride and the -2 con fairly significant drawbacks (particularly the latter). and the jungle halfling's poison use really blows the downsides out of the water[IMO]. Perhaps comparably, but the benefit really isn't that great either. You just lose the meager 5% chance of affecting yourself when applying poison - yawn. Both of the evil Paladin variants are argueable as well: the 3rd level auras are written to work exactly like courage aura except they added in pretty substantial benefits. The Paladin of Tyrrany's aura isn't that great - its identical to the one a Blackguard gets, in fact - considering they don't generally do much with saves. And the Paladin of Slaughter's was toned down here significantly - just -1 AC instead of -4. The planar ranger gets a celestial/infernal AC: which I would consider a pretty major upbeat compared to losing some knowledge skills & taking a penalty on wild empathy I wouldn't, personally. Thats a pretty weak template - the DR will rarely matter, the energy resistances are weak, and the SR rises so slowly it will only be effective vs dip casters. Add in the fact that a Ranger's animal companion is pretty weak already and won't get anywhere near powerful unless you go straight Ranger and its a fairly petty benefit IMO. And, of course, the paragon classes[Human Specifically] offer such boni that if they didn't cost creds, I'm sure there would be a large influx of them. Those are good, true, but also costly. Human Paragon gives you some flexible skills, one bonus feat, and +2 to one ability score, at the cost of three levels gaining nothing else, lower bab if you were going for a warrior-type build, and a CL loss if you were going for a caster, not to mention it doesn't advance manifesting at all if you're a psionic character. Other Paragons are usually only good for the ability score increase. I still don't think this is as good as the free expanded knowledge wilder variant though. Zevox
TelinArtho 07-16-07, 12:51 PM	I still have not received any sort of confirmation from Sauro or Mitza about the campaigns for Retikos or Willowmoon respectively. I need to hammer down the details on who will be in which campaign - and I'd like to get this done as soon as possible.
SauroGrenom 07-16-07, 01:01 PM	Personally I'm a fan of the crystal master, but in the CoCo environment I'm not sure how it would compare to other core classes. For me the balancing effect is that the stat boosts are enhancement bonuses and won't stack with items. Also they won't get very large until the character's are at levels where the items would be available anyway at reasonable cost. So basically the crystals save you some cash and item slots that would otherwise be used for stat boosting items. I've always thought that it would be great for a monk style character to continue with the no items theme of those characters. All the other Mind's Eye or other open source stuff is out there, but not necessarily balanced for our setting. Just because it's open source doesn't mean we have to or should accept it in CoCo. I'm particularly skeptical of the psionic meditation feats and associated prestige class. It's a kind of Nova effect. Even if your abilities are lost after the 1st loss of the 3FC, that's not a factor in the 1st fight or even the 2nd fight or 3rd one if you've managed to win all along. So if the weakness of your character is hidden most of your battles, your weakness isn't much of a weakness.
SauroGrenom 07-16-07, 01:02 PM	I still have not received any sort of confirmation from Sauro or Mitza about the campaigns for Retikos or Willowmoon respectively. I need to hammer down the details on who will be in which campaign - and I'd like to get this done as soon as possible. Oh. Sorry. I missed any sort of message from you. I didn't get a PM. What is it you need?
Zevox 07-16-07, 01:09 PM	Personally I'm a fan of the crystal master, but in the CoCo environment I'm not sure how it would compare to other core classes. For me the balancing effect is that the stat boosts are enhancement bonuses and won't stack with items. They are? You sure? The copies McJarvis posted in the "massive updates" thread don't say that (gives no name for the bonus type). If they are, thats much better - I'd still be concerned about the power resistance crystal, but that could be addressed with a minor change to the class like we did with many UA ones. I'm particularly skeptical of the psionic meditation feats and associated prestige class. It's a kind of Nova effect. Even if your abilities are lost after the 1st loss of the 3FC, that's not a factor in the 1st fight or even the 2nd fight or 3rd one if you've managed to win all along. So if the weakness of your character is hidden most of your battles, your weakness isn't much of a weakness. Agreed. Zevox
SauroGrenom 07-16-07, 01:45 PM	I still have not received any sort of confirmation from Sauro or Mitza about the campaigns for Retikos or Willowmoon respectively. I need to hammer down the details on who will be in which campaign - and I'd like to get this done as soon as possible. I looked a few pages back and found your post about the campaign participants. Retikos is neutral. So as far as the good/evil alignment is concerned, he would be fine in either place. I leave it to your sense of party balance to decide where he would best fit.
SauroGrenom 07-16-07, 02:04 PM	They are? You sure? The copies McJarvis posted in the "massive updates" thread don't say that (gives no name for the bonus type). If they are, thats much better - I'd still be concerned about the power resistance crystal, but that could be addressed with a minor change to the class like we did with many UA ones. I stand corrected. It was an enhancement bonus until the class was updated to 3.5. After the update, they changed it to an unamed bonus and cut the size of the bonus in half. Hrm. That changes things somewhat.
McJarvis 07-16-07, 02:10 PM	Given Sauro's mind on it, I would agree that the meditant might not be suited for CoCo purposes. I love the idea behind it & would love to see someone take off with it, though. Any ideas on how it could be adapted to suit CoCo with minor changes? Perhaps something as simple as reducing the duration from 1 hour to 1 minute would work. [Which, while a very significant blow to the ability/class, would help "reflect" CoCo's limited environment] Maybe make it 1 min/level of Meditant[1 minute min.] RE: Crystal User At best[ECL15 minimum] it gives a +3 bonus to 5 stats. I'm still unconvinced that this is "broken"-> though admit it seems fairly powerful. I probably wouldn't pick 5 different stat boosting crystals, though.
templer10 07-16-07, 02:25 PM	Given Sauro's mind on it, I would agree that the meditant might not be suited for CoCo purposes. I love the idea behind it & would love to see someone take off with it, though. Any ideas on how it could be adapted to suit CoCo with minor changes? Perhaps something as simple as reducing the duration from 1 hour to 1 minute would work. [Which, while a very significant blow to the ability/class, would help "reflect" CoCo's limited environment] Maybe make it 1 min/level of Meditant[1 minute min.] RE: Crystal User At best[ECL15 minimum] it gives a +3 bonus to 5 stats. I'm still unconvinced that this is "broken"-> though admit it seems fairly powerful. I probably wouldn't pick 5 different stat boosting crystals, though. dont forget you are still osing manifester levels (if not many) and that's especially painfull for a pure manifester.
McJarvis 07-16-07, 02:38 PM	I'd actually be more worried about the Moonstone [+1 per crystal to AC and saving throws], Peridot[+1 DR/- per crystal], & Sapphire[Perminant touchsight!]. So my picks for gems would fall along the lines of... Aquamarine Moonstone Peridot Sapphire Emerald For a grand total[At ECL15] of +3 INT, PR 29, +6 to AC/Saving throws, 6 DR/-, and Touchsight out to 60 ft. And none of that will scale ever again. Of course: the Crystal Master is an easier fix than the meditant, we just need to adjust the levels at which you can get what gems. ALL of my picks are level 1 crystals....I don't think touchsight is as useful in campaigns as it is in CoCo. Capping out or outright removing the PR one will do fine[the big kicker is that it rises by +6 at level 10], and the others aren't so bad. Perhaps changing them to the +stat scheme would help keep them down. [+1 / two gems]
Hirumajoe 07-16-07, 02:51 PM	RE: Crystal User At best[ECL15 minimum] it gives a +3 bonus to 5 stats. I'm still unconvinced that this is "broken"-> though admit it seems fairly powerful. I probably wouldn't pick 5 different stat boosting crystals, though. I'm not sure what to make of it. Although, I'm tending to agree with McJarvis, I don't think its as broken as everyone makes it out to be. I personally think it compares similarly to the Phrenic template, perhaps slightly worse. There you have a +2 LA template providing +2 Int/+2 Wis/+4 Cha, PR equal to HD, +1 pp, and *alot* of useful augmented powers (including augmented defensive precognition). The crystal master is giving up 2 caster levels. However, with the poor BAB and d4 hit dice, you wouldn't want to mix that class with anything but a pure psion, so its pretty darn close to being a +2 LA. Sure you can take the Int, Wis and Cha stat boosts, and PR, and say the insight AC/save bonus. The phrenic does all that, and even does it while its not psionically focused. And you can get all those benefits on something that isn't a full psion caster (since you can stick on a Fighter with some nice benefits). If you think the crystal master is unbalanced, then you may want to take issue with the phrenic template.. Edit: Certainly if you compare a Psion 10/Crystal Master 10 and a Phrenic Psion 18, I'm positive the later comes out on top. Similarly, if you compare a Psion 5/Crystal Master 9 against a Phrenic Psion 12, the later comes out on top again. Its only around Psion 5/Crystal Master 10 that it gets a big jump in power, but even then it doesn't seem overpowered to me. Again because most of those abilities (except maybe the PR) require you to remain focused. Which is a real cost for a caster, since it prevents the use of most meta-psionic feats.
templer10 07-16-07, 02:57 PM	you what i wonder every single time? why when peeps buy admantine weapons - they dont remmber that you cant actually sunder with a PIERCING weapon (cough waste of cash on admantine spiked chain)
Macbrea 07-16-07, 03:14 PM	It is the actual reason Izumi has a two times oversized Kusuri-gama instead of a spiked chain. It is a slashing weapon and therefore can be used to sunder at reach. It also, later can have vorpal added.
TelinArtho 07-16-07, 03:19 PM	Well - not everyone buys adamantine to be able to sunder. Some buy it to prevent sundering. A spiked chain is pretty easy to destroy - an adamantine one is actually pretty tough.
Zevox 07-16-07, 03:20 PM	you what i wonder every single time? why when peeps buy admantine weapons - they dont remmber that you cant actually sunder with a PIERCING weapon (cough waste of cash on admantine spiked chain) Sundering is one great use, presuming you don't buy piercing weapons (most don't buy such unless they're arrows). The fact that its near impossible to sunder Adamantine items themselves is a nice bonus too (hardness 20, more if magic, is too high to be bypassed by adamantine weapons, plus they have high hp which gets better with magic). They also beat some DR, particularly from the Stoneskin spell, which is nice at higher levels. Zevox
Hirumajoe 07-16-07, 04:19 PM	So here's a dumb question in regards to what McJarvis posted from the Minds Eye: Would you even be able to pre-buff the psychic meditation feats since they take 8 hours per center? Since I presume you can't keep spells that last for days from a previous 3FC running (or presumably even the previous "day"), why would you be able to use meditation time from the previous day to setup your psychic meditation? At most, you have 6 hours before your first fight starts (and thats on a good roll).
McJarvis 07-16-07, 04:22 PM	So here's a dumb question in regards to what McJarvis posted from the Minds Eye: Would you even be able to pre-buff the psychic meditation feats since they take 8 hours per center? Since I presume you can't keep spells that last for days from a previous 3FC running (or presumably even the previous "day"), why would you be able to use meditation time from the previous day to setup your psychic meditation? At most, you have 6 hours before your first fight starts (and thats on a good roll). I'm assuming you can, since in theory meditating last forever[or until dismissed or your hp are reduced to 0]. This is the same logic used for those charged PP storing items. The reasoning behind multiple day spells is that you have to keep re-casting them on a timed basis. With meditation you just meditate & go until you die. In a more practical manner of speaking: An adventurer could spend upwards of days meditating before going on a multiple week adventure. Unless he is brought to 0 hp, he's cool for the adventure. I guess 8x7=56 hours of meditation is a lot of buffing, but so is weeks of crafting-> and we let people do that. edit-> Given that the benefits of the feats themselves are slightly better than a 2nd level spell slot, perhaps just making an ECL requirement of 3 for the feats is all that's necessary. This will effectively raise the bar of ECL required to get into the prestige class, though....[ECL9, ouch!]
Hirumajoe 07-16-07, 05:21 PM	I'm assuming you can, since in theory meditating last forever[or until dismissed or your hp are reduced to 0]. This is the same logic used for those charged PP storing items. The reasoning behind multiple day spells is that you have to keep re-casting them on a timed basis. With meditation you just meditate & go until you die. In a more practical manner of speaking: An adventurer could spend upwards of days meditating before going on a multiple week adventure. Unless he is brought to 0 hp, he's cool for the adventure. Actually, thats a good point. And I'm just remembering that Permanency also sticks through 3FCs, so I guess it wouldn't be a problem on that front. The problem with Psychic meditation is its just plain better than other feats which do similar things. 1x Psionic Talent vs Psychic mediation, Third Eye: Psychic meditation is just plain better at ML 2 and above. Plus, because they're bonus, they're not going to be restricted by the 3FC. Even a fully loaded Psychic Warrior at 20 with only Psionic Talent isn't going to get as much from his last feat as a Psychic Warrior who just got Psychic meditation gets. Iron Will or Lightning Reflexes or Great Fortitude vs Psychic meditation, Solar: Its only available for one fight, but you get to choose the bonus on the fly. Not to mention it helps all of them to some degree. I'd personally take Psychic meditation over the Saving throw feats. Dodge or Improved Natural Armor vs Psychic meditation, Crown: Bigger bonus for one fight. +3 * 1 or +1 *3 is arguably the same net benefit. Although I'm not sure how it stacks if you already have natural armor (since its not an enhancement to natural armor and itdoesn't say it increases your natural armor by 1) Toughness vs Psychic meditation, Heart: Better at ML 2 for one fight. Arguably better overall at ML 5. ??? vs Psychic meditation, Sacral: Don't know of any feats that give PR. Its worse than the Power Resistance power, so you might equate it with a 3rd or 4th level power once a day. I don't even know what to compare Base and Throat to. Closest things are class features like Barbarian rage or the Human Paragon class stat bonus. Its like getting Weapon Focus, half of Weapon spec, dodge, multiple copies of Toughness, and half of Lightning Reflexes and Great fortitude all wrapped up into one feat. Admittedly for only one fight. But effectively getting 5 feats for 1 fight and then 0 for 2 seems better than 1 feat for 3 fights. I don't think the cost of a standard action really makes up for all that. That or you're getting +1 DC to all your powers. Which stacks and doesn't require ditching your focus. Problem is, if you took any of these other feats, I can't see much reason not to ditch them and take Psychic meditation instead. And if you actually take the Deep Psychic Meditation feats it just gets compounded. One Deep Psychic Meditation feat plus Psychic Meditation is just plain better than any two of those other feats. (Although you can't really go nova in the first fight, since this is effectively an x/uses a day ability). And thats just in raw power, not including the flexibility that you get. Yes, there is the don't go to 0 hp clause, but it doesn't mitigate the up front power of these feats. Other than the Psychic meditation feats (and the corresponding prestige class), the rest of the Mind's Eye stuff looks reasonable to me. Edit: In regards to the feat being about a 2nd level spell slot, its not. Because it scales with manifester level in some cases. Or starts out even stronger in others. 1 power point per level is equivalent to a slot of the highest spell level you can cast. So at ML 17, its a 9th level slot. Also, +2 Str/Dex/Con for 1 hour is straight up better than +4 enhancement bonus to a single stat for 1 minute/level. That particular use is more along the lines of a 3rd or even 4th level spell (something which gives exotic bonus types like morale or the like).
McJarvis 07-16-07, 07:33 PM	Edit: In regards to the feat being about a 2nd level spell slot, its not. Because it scales with manifester level in some cases. Or starts out even stronger in others. 1 power point per level is equivalent to a slot of the highest spell level you can cast. So at ML 17, its a 9th level slot. Also, +2 Str/Dex/Con for 1 hour is straight up better than +4 enhancement bonus to a single stat for 1 minute/level. That particular use is more along the lines of a 3rd or even 4th level spell (something which gives exotic bonus types like morale or the like). If I had meant it was worth about a 2nd level power(or 3pp), I would have said so. +2 Str/Dex/Con is a little better than the Rage spell, which is 2nd level. The only one I think that is really overpowered is the power resistance one. Given that 90% of the time 1 min/level ends up being the entire combat, I don't think the hour long duration is an issue in the arena. [though we could bring it down to 1 min/level if that would make people feel better] Nevermind. Given the broad task ahead of us[All content made available through WotC], I would rather just ban it outright than try to make changes.
MindWandererB 07-16-07, 08:38 PM	It was already ruled in the CoCo that it should work that way. There was a discussion about it when I started playing Kitty.Is that in the court decisions or anything? If not, it needs to be if it's to be official.i mean - if i currently have a handle animal ally and when i level and get more handle animal ranks i want to get a stronger one i have to release the old ally "into the wild" (trained and all) so i can get a new handle animal ally using the new max handle animal ranks. the thing with that cha(max) is that it makes having more that one ally all but impossible since generaly you want to have the best one you can get. EDIT - are you sure about what you are saying zeovx - becuase i see MWB's Aerryl having a dire wolf (+09 cha) and an elite Rhinoceros (+13 cha) and a spider eater which iam not if was bought or quested for.Damn... when Sauro updated the new HA rules, he put that one in there without my noticing it. I'm not really sure what the need of that rule is--Aerryl, for instance, has extra animals solely for the purpose of backup. I'm going to have to think about how to fix that.
Malither76 07-16-07, 08:40 PM	I don't think this got answered, I don't remember if I posted it or just thought about it, but can you get a discount on the cost of upgrading items, say you wanted to go from a sword +1 to +3 a 16000 increase, can you use the free activity discount to do this, I know it wouldn't be available until after cycle
SauroGrenom 07-16-07, 09:09 PM	Damn... when Sauro updated the new HA rules, he put that one in there without my noticing it. I'm not really sure what the need of that rule is--Aerryl, for instance, has extra animals solely for the purpose of backup. I'm going to have to think about how to fix that. That was put there on purpose. It was similar to the diplomacy rules we were using. Recall that at the beginning of the IMT Raskos had too many diplomacy allies. I had to drop one due to the mechanism we used. I simply used the same mechanism for the HA allies. Basically, a maxed HA character can get multiple maxed allies limited by the minimal ECL limit. A normal HA character who doesn't invest in feats or items can get a single maxed ally. The alternative strategy is to get a particular ally, and as you level up, you get extra ones instead of replacing the most powerful one.
hogarth 07-16-07, 09:17 PM	Damn... when Sauro updated the new HA rules, he put that one in there without my noticing it. I'm not really sure what the need of that rule is--Aerryl, for instance, has extra animals solely for the purpose of backup. I'm going to have to think about how to fix that. I didn't notice that either. There go Reginald Molehusband's five bats out the window (no pun intended).
templer10 07-17-07, 01:37 AM	Basically, a maxed HA character can get multiple maxed allies limited by the minimal ECL limit. A normal HA character who doesn't invest in feats or items can get a single maxed ally. The alternative strategy is to get a particular ally, and as you level up, you get extra ones instead of replacing the most powerful one. Didn't You include a Rule in teh new handle animal rules that you COULDNT use +skill items? becuase as it stand out (not able to use items) now you need very high charisma + useless feats + max ranks and even then at best you will be slightly higher then the maximum for a single ally and you wouldnt be able to get 2 maximum ECL allies.
Callix 07-17-07, 09:13 AM	I'm new here, and thought I'd try something a bit different... Ralein Dreamstriker. He's not quite finished, but please tell me what you think.
hogarth 07-17-07, 10:27 AM	I'm new here, and thought I'd try something a bit different... Ralein Dreamstriker. He's not quite finished, but please tell me what you think. A few thoughts (which apply to all characters, not just soulknives): How will you handle someone faster, with a longer range attack? [Maybe buy a longbow.] How will you handle an opponent you wish to avoid? [Maybe buy a horse for mobility, but some people don't like mounts.] How will you handle spellcasters? [Sleep is not a problem for elves, but saves are somewhat low. Maybe buy some potions of Protection from Evil/Good to avoid summoned creatures and sometimes boost saves/AC.] How will you handle opponents with allies? [Maybe buy some allies of your own like a warhorse (at level 5) or a hippogriff (at level 6).] My guess is that your first fight against an opponent with allies (whether that's a druid or a mounted character or whatever) will be a bit frustrating. Don't rely on sneakiness too much -- most of the maps here are only mediocre at best for hiding on.
TelinArtho 07-17-07, 10:34 AM	Aerryl Nalladar, like Besthirah, continues to have problems dealing with arcane spellcasters. To rectify that, she'd like the following item (partially based on previously approved item here): On command, this rod produces a shield effect or a see invisibility effect on the wearer. Each function can be used up to three times per day. CL 3rd; Craft Rod, see invisibility, shield; Price 8910 gp; Weight 0 lb. Formula: (SL 2 x CL 3 x 1800 x 3/5) + (SL 1 x CL 3 x 1800 x 3/5)x.75 (discount for multiple similar abilities on unslotted item). Credits: 15 for custom item. How are Shield (abjuration) and See Invisibility (divination) "similar abilities"? I think, instead of the 75% cost - this should be a 150% cost...
amalcon 07-17-07, 10:48 AM	I'm new here, and thought I'd try something a bit different... Ralein Dreamstriker. He's not quite finished, but please tell me what you think. Just a few suggestions: - You've bought +1 studded leather. A mithril chain shirt is basically just better, for roughly the same price. Plus, you can enchant it for cheap later on. - You don't have a shield. This is probably because Soulknives are not proficient with shields, but if you can get the armor check penalty down to 0, there is no penalty for not being proficient. A buckler would basically just be a bonus for you.
Zevox 07-17-07, 01:24 PM	How are Shield (abjuration) and See Invisibility (divination) "similar abilities"? I think, instead of the 75% cost - this should be a 150% cost... Agreed - theres nothing similar about them (and AC boost plus MM immunity vs the ability to see invisible things... yeah). Zevox
MindWandererB 07-17-07, 02:31 PM	How are Shield (abjuration) and See Invisibility (divination) "similar abilities"? I think, instead of the 75% cost - this should be a 150% cost...Multiple Similar Abilities: For items with multiple similar abilities that don’t take up space on a character’s body use the following formula: Calculate the price of the single most costly ability, then add 75% of the value of the next most costly ability, plus one-half the value of any other abilities. Multiple Different Abilities: Abilities such as an attack roll bonus or saving throw bonus and a spell-like function are not similar, and their values are simply added together to determine the cost. For items that do take up a space on a character’s body each additional power not only has no discount but instead has a 50% increase in price.Two reasons: 1) Unslotted, held items never have a 150% cost. It stays at 100% at worst. 2) Two spell-like functions are considered similar (implied, though not stated, in the quote). This is the rule used for staffs, regardless of what the spells do.
TelinArtho 07-17-07, 05:33 PM	I disagree that all "spell-like functions" are considered similar. We even have precedence with Cat denying certain spell combinations in staves on the basis that they had no corelation (no comment on his Detect Magic/Antimagic field staff...). I think the item should have a 150% cost for the extra ability. Regardless, I certainly cannot get behind an item that gives the benefit for 75% of the cost.
Yitzi 07-17-07, 05:39 PM	Actually, multiple similar abilities means like a staff, where there is one pool of charges for all uses. So if you want the 75% cost, you would need a limit of 3 uses per day total, not 3 per day of each effect.
Guildmaster (CEF) 07-17-07, 05:43 PM	Figures... @Zevox - CEF's actions will be sent tomorrow... Cat's funky formatting is taking up too many characters so I can't send them as is... its about time I change them anyway...
MindWandererB 07-17-07, 06:06 PM	I disagree that all "spell-like functions" are considered similar. We even have precedence with Cat denying certain spell combinations in staves on the basis that they had no corelation (no comment on his Detect Magic/Antimagic field staff...). I think the item should have a 150% cost for the extra ability. Regardless, I certainly cannot get behind an item that gives the benefit for 75% of the cost.I could be convinced that they're not "similar," but there is no way that a hand-held item would get a 150% penalty. That falls under the "multiple different abilities" rule I just quoted, and the penalty applies only to slotted items. For held items, you just add the prices together.
stimpydoda 07-17-07, 06:08 PM	I'm trying to get the link for Lycidas Arcades first fight, which was a June 27 fight. The Battles Thread isn't working for me and I can't find it in the June 27 thread. It should be on pg 35 of the Battles thread, can someone link it please?
Yitzi 07-17-07, 06:44 PM	It isn't page 35, it's either 34 or 37, which I can't access either, there seems to be something wrong with the Battles thread. But if you know who it was against, it might be linked on their sheet.
MindWandererB 07-17-07, 06:48 PM	If you turn your # of posts per page down to 20 or 10, I bet you can load the Battles thread. Then just use the index on page 1.
waywreth 07-18-07, 09:13 AM	When getting a new animal companion, how many tricks does it start off knowing? I realize it can learn up to 6 if it's intelligence is 2 or higher (plus a few bonus per druid ability). How many does combat riding take up (I think it's 2)? Edit: Can you change it's feats?
Sjiggie 07-18-07, 09:20 AM	Combat riding takes up 6 tricks (Attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel.) I believe that animal compagnions can have any trick you want when you get a new one althogh I'm not certain on that.
TelinArtho 07-18-07, 09:42 AM	When getting a new animal companion, how many tricks does it start off knowing? I realize it can learn up to 6 if it's intelligence is 2 or higher (plus a few bonus per druid ability). How many does combat riding take up (I think it's 2)? Edit: Can you change it's feats? Animal companions that are not for brand new characters must be trained any of the non-bonus tricks that they want. With a 2 intelligence, it can have 6 tricks. Bonus tricks are added automatically when you get them - no training needed. Combat Riding takes 6 tricks. You cannot change an animal companion's feats - but you do get to choose its new feats as it gains them. The TLT has an excellent resource for everything related to animal companions - you might take a look there.
McJarvis 07-18-07, 09:49 AM	Can Aquatic Elves chill out in water in-between fights, or are they more or less required to get a high con score in order to survive the day?
TelinArtho 07-18-07, 09:50 AM	Its assumed they can chill out in water between fights. This was resolved a while back... can't seem to remember the player who brought it up though...
Sjiggie 07-18-07, 09:52 AM	Probably Milov he has an aquatic elf character and has in his prebuff listed that he take a dive in the Gladius port to renew his Gills.
hogarth 07-18-07, 09:52 AM	Its assumed they can chill out in water between fights. This was resolved a while back... can't seem to remember the player who brought it up though... Mer-Man and Ihdald Seaslash are two notable aquatic gladiators.
TelinArtho 07-18-07, 09:55 AM	Well Mer-man was certainly around a while before the one I was thinking of. But this is the one I was thinking of. Mostly because he was going to be in the same campaign with Sir Valkin when Valkin was still ECL3...
waywreth 07-18-07, 10:49 AM	Thank you Telin and Sjiggie for the information on Animal Companions. Special thanks for the link to The Living Tree. Guess that means my druid gets a few weeks off...
TelinArtho 07-18-07, 11:21 AM	Okay - I've got confirmation from everyone involved in the Denth campaigns. It will indeed be two groups, we do have every guild represented and the dates have been set. Group 1 - Run by me - Sdentch (TheMagister, WAR), Auburn in Twilight (Vathelokai, TAO), Willowmoon (MitzaVolchenko), Nimbus (Zevox), Ephraim (Erithmu, CEF) Group 2 - Run by Erithmu - Besthirah Lafali (MindWandererB, TLT), Jonathon Raven Gravebound (Abyssal Stalker, EHTC), Vandelar the Red (soullord, TAO), Retikos (SauroGrenom), Gareth (Malither76, PSI). Alternates: If Zevox can't activate Nimbus due to credits, he'll switch out Nimbus in the first group with Gareth in the second group and put Archdevil Asran in the second group to replace Gareth. Start date is planned for the 15th of August, but might be delayed to the 22nd. The campaigns will last for 10 weeks. I do want to note that there's very few natural healers in these groups - so I would not expect much healing in combat. Between encounters - it would probably be beneficial to pick up a few wands of CLW...
Zevox 07-18-07, 11:38 AM	I do want to note that there's very few natural healers in these groups - so I would not expect much healing in combat. Between encounters - it would probably be beneficial to pick up a few wands of CLW... I've got Nimbus picking up a wand of CMW as one of his starting purchases, so that'll help the first group, presuming I can activate him. And if not, Asran's been carrying around a couple of CLW wands for a while now that hes hasn't had much opportunity to use in the arena. Zevox
Erithmu 07-18-07, 11:56 AM	Okay - I've got confirmation from everyone involved in the Denth campaigns. It will indeed be two groups, we do have every guild represented and the dates have been set. Group 1 - Run by me - Sdentch (TheMagister, WAR), Auburn in Twilight (Vathelokai, TAO), Willowmoon (MitzaVolchenko), Nimbus (Zevox), Ephraim (Erithmu, CEF) Group 2 - Run by Erithmu - Besthirah Lafali (MindWandererB, TLT), Jonathon Raven Gravebound (Abyssal Stalker, EHTC), Vandelar the Red (soullord, TAO), Retikos (SauroGrenom), Gareth (Malither76, PSI). Alternates: If Zevox can't activate Nimbus due to credits, he'll switch out Nimbus in the first group with Gareth in the second group and put Archdevil Asran in the second group to replace Gareth. Start date is planned for the 15th of August, but might be delayed to the 22nd. The campaigns will last for 10 weeks. I do want to note that there's very few natural healers in these groups - so I would not expect much healing in combat. Between encounters - it would probably be beneficial to pick up a few wands of CLW...I want to add something ... for those of you who are still running your characters in the arena (looking at Vandelar, who will level to ECL 12 even w/ a loss this week, and Gareth, who could level to ECL 12 with a win and a loss) There is a requirement that all characters be relatively close in level. I don't think an ECL 10-12 is bad, but if you guys level up to 13 ... you will not be able to be added to the campaign. I don't think group 1 will have this problem as they are all ECL 11 (low xp) and 10. Group 2 however is looking at 2*ECL 12, 1* ECL 11, and 2*ECL 10. Re: planning: Ephraim might pick up a CLW wand as well for outside healing, then again she is short stacked on gold due to KU's campaign (which I think gold was still given out incorrectly on that one)
SoulLord 07-18-07, 02:19 PM	How far are the ecl 10 lvl guys from leveling to 11? also 12 is the new frozen rank right?
MindWandererB 07-18-07, 02:24 PM	How far are the ecl 10 lvl guys from leveling to 11? also 12 is the new frozen rank right? There are several at 11 already. The new frozen ECL is 16.
Zevox 07-18-07, 02:24 PM	How far are the ecl 10 lvl guys from leveling to 11? also 12 is the new frozen rank right? Depends on the character - some are close, some not so much. You'll have to check them individually if you really want to know specifically. And no, 12 is an open league. Level 16 is the new lower end of the frozen leagues. Zevox
hogarth 07-18-07, 02:30 PM	Can psicrystals read?
McJarvis 07-18-07, 02:41 PM	Riviving TIM is crossing my mind given a more recent idea I have for him. Have the intimidate rules been updated at all in the last month?
Zevox 07-18-07, 02:50 PM	Riviving TIM is crossing my mind given a more recent idea I have for him. Have the intimidate rules been updated at all in the last month? No, though one the things on the Council's "to-do" list is to decide how it works with CR-less allies (basically, class ones). Zevox
Malither76 07-18-07, 05:01 PM	From what I can tell gold was giving out incorrectly in the campaign Gareth was in as well, He received 24000xp and only 18000gp over the whole thing.
MindWandererB 07-18-07, 05:07 PM	From what I can tell gold was giving out incorrectly in the campaign Gareth was in as well, He received 24000xp and only 18000gp over the whole thing. That's probably correct. Encounters above your ECL have poor GP payoffs, prior to our ratio rule.
Malither76 07-18-07, 09:31 PM	oh, that may be then, no one complained at the time so it should be right then. thanks.
McJarvis 07-18-07, 09:58 PM	I was talking to MWB in chat about riding PC's & he pointed me to the giant eagle for rules on intelligent allies needing training for such things. Could, say, a centaur ranger[with ranks in HA] train himself to bear a rider? [and thus duck the 1,000gp expense?]
NiQil 07-18-07, 10:24 PM	Hurray....internet is back. Too bad I missed pairings. Ah well. Gives me another week to see what kind of activation non-patterns I can come up with to confound MWB. I'll put up comments on the Mind's Eye & related stuff in the Council in a bit.
Yitzi 07-19-07, 11:57 AM	Question: in the following diagram, does the border of the tree give blue cover from red, or is the tree contained to its square, and the overflow is just graphics? http://www.hwx.it/coco/coco.php;v=1;map=forest;a=Name,M,16,60;b =Name,M,15,52;los=16,60,15,52,3
Zevox 07-19-07, 12:43 PM	Question: in the following diagram, does the border of the tree give blue cover from red, or is the tree contained to its square, and the overflow is just graphics? http://www.hwx.it/coco/coco.php;v=1;map=forest;a=Name,M,16,60;b =Name,M,15,52;los=16,60,15,52,3 I'm pretty sure its the latter - just a bit of graphical overflow making it look like the tree extends beyond its square when it shouldn't. Zevox
Eluria 07-19-07, 12:55 PM	nm
TelinArtho 07-19-07, 01:01 PM	In the situation above, the tree to the south of red has a border that provides cover to blue. This has nothing to do with the tree having a bit of "bleed" into other squares on the map. The tree is a 5ft square obstacle and has borders. The border on the left side provides cover to blue because at least one line passes through this border: To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target’s square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to AC).
lonewolf 07-19-07, 03:21 PM	Monsters with PC classes use 25pt buy for abilities, right? EDIT: Can monsters use skill packages such as ambush?
TelinArtho 07-19-07, 03:25 PM	Monsters with PC classes use 25pt buy for abilities, right? Correct - though I often just use the elite array for simplicity (15,14,13,12,10,8)
MindWandererB 07-19-07, 05:58 PM	Correct - though I often just use the elite array for simplicity (15,14,13,12,10,8) The rules actually suggest using the elite array, rather than point buy. Monsters can't use skill packages; in a monster fight, you can't use Attack/Defend packages, monsters have no way of using Free Activity skill packages, and Automatic packages never apply to them.
templer10 07-19-07, 06:12 PM	Someone mind reminding me - does freedom of movement work against a harpy "captivating song"? p.s - i assume that protection from evil does work (considering it's charm and all).
Eluria 07-19-07, 06:13 PM	Question about the Scout package: Survival or Search (vs Track DC) Use Rope (vs Escape Artist) Knowledge (Geography) . Task: You have to pass the Track DC (Indoor: Dc15; Outdoor: Dc10; plus modifiers on PHB p101 or here (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/featsAll.html#track)). Your Use Rope value must be higher than your opponent's Escape Artist. You need at least 5 ranks in each skill. . Effect: You gain one free prebuff round just before the fight for every 5 points of your Knowledge (Geography) skill modifier. . Note: Without the track feat, you can only find tracks up to DC 10. It cites using the modifiers listed in the PHB; this includes a +1 to the DC for small creatures. Xanaver Valassar is attacking Snaga, and would normally get to use the Scout package for 1 prebuff round; however, his survival modifier is +10; the outdoor DC is 10, +1 because Snaga is small. Am I correct in concluding Xanaver doesn't get a prebuff round?
Zevox 07-19-07, 06:20 PM	Someone mind reminding me - does freedom of movement work against a harpy "captivating song"? p.s - i assume that protection from evil does work (considering it's charm and all). Pro Evil should work, yeah, it should work since the ability specifically says its a charm effect. Freedom of Movement, probably not - it doesn't prevent movement at all (it actually causes it). Zevox
Eluria 07-19-07, 07:55 PM	Forgive the plethora of questions that may ensue, but this is my first week pitlording, and I'd rather get answers pre-finishing a fight than after... Lets say you have the following: Rd 1: Character B starts casting a full-round spell Rd 2: Character A runs, bases character B; character B then acts and finishes his summons; does Character A get an attack of opportunity at the end of his run action for character B being involved in a full-round summons? Or is there something about running / denying dex bonus to AC that also takes away a character's ability to make AoOs at the end of a run? I'd love an answer on this. Thanks!
Callix 07-19-07, 07:58 PM	No, AoOs only occur when the caster begins the action. The caster could be disrupted by an ordinary attack, but there is no AoO. Don't ask why.
Zevox 07-19-07, 08:38 PM	Forgive the plethora of questions that may ensue, but this is my first week pitlording, and I'd rather get answers pre-finishing a fight than after... Lets say you have the following: Rd 1: Character B starts casting a full-round spell Rd 2: Character A runs, bases character B; character B then acts and finishes his summons; does Character A get an attack of opportunity at the end of his run action for character B being involved in a full-round summons? Or is there something about running / denying dex bonus to AC that also takes away a character's ability to make AoOs at the end of a run? I'd love an answer on this. Thanks! A question: is this a full-round action spell, or a 1-round casting time one? If the former, the spell goes off before character A can run at all. Full-round actions are things like charging and full attacking - they use take your full round to execute, but don't take any longer than your round. If the latter, Callix is basically right. In the round where the 1-round casting time spell finishes, the spell simply goes off without any further action needed by the caster (presuming they spent the entire preceding round casting), so theres nothing to provoke an AoO. Zevox
Sjiggie 07-19-07, 08:44 PM	Regarding the scout attack package: Do you have to beat the track DC with your total skill modifier or does the pitlord has to roll a search or survival check before the battle starts? It isn't clear on the skills section
stimpydoda 07-19-07, 09:05 PM	It shatter is cast on a bow being wielded, what is the bows will save modifier? d20+?
TelinArtho 07-19-07, 09:07 PM	It says in the spell description - it is the wielder's will save.
McJarvis 07-19-07, 09:12 PM	I was talking to MWB in chat about riding PC's & he pointed me to the giant eagle for rules on intelligent allies needing training for such things. Could, say, a centaur ranger[with ranks in HA] train himself to bear a rider? [and thus duck the 1,000gp expense?] bump. Specifically: if you get a centaur leadership cohort, do you have to train it to bear a rider? What if you wanted to do something fancy like get a druid cohort and ride them while they were wild-shaped? By level 10 you could have a druid cohort who could turn into large animals 3/day for 8 hours per time. [so it could be prebuffed along with saddling the cohort]
hogarth 07-19-07, 09:14 PM	bump. Specifically: if you get a centaur leadership cohort, do you have to train it to bear a rider? What if you wanted to do something fancy like get a druid cohort and ride them while they were wild-shaped? [bare-back, naturally] The Rules of the Game article on mounts talks about this (basically it says you can "hitch a ride" on a creature even if you're not riding it per se), but some of the comments in that particular series clearly contradict other rules.
McJarvis 07-19-07, 09:16 PM	The Rules of the Game article on mounts talks about this (basically it says you can "hitch a ride" on a creature even if you're not riding it per se), but some of the comments in that particular series clearly contradict other rules. Right...but the section of the SRD on giant eagles seems to imply that intelligent mounts still need to be trained. What's the "CoCo way"?
stimpydoda 07-19-07, 10:15 PM	Sorry, wrong thread.
MindWandererB 07-19-07, 10:52 PM	I call everyone's attention to the announcement that just went up today. It's of special note to anyone using an "avatar" account; if you're using any of those (-lords, guildmasters), please make sure the email address is yours, and it's probably best if it matches the address used for your primary account.
Abyssal Stalker 07-20-07, 01:11 AM	I keep noticing that there are several violation posts in the Prison that don't include a link to the character. Isn't that required anymore?
NiQil 07-20-07, 01:13 AM	I keep noticing that there are several violation posts in the Prison that don't include a link to the character. Isn't that required anymore? It's mentioned in the rules, but is not something that has ever been enforced. I don't need it in the violations to run the prison, so have never bothered to enforce it. I would rather make sure that the subject lines are in the correct format, as that is what stalls me the most. But yes, technically, a link to the character sheet is required.
lonewolf 07-20-07, 08:26 AM	If a character uses the Frighten Allies Free Activity and manages to get the allies panicked so that they dont show up for the fight, do the allies still count for reward modifiers?
templer10 07-20-07, 08:34 AM	If a character uses the Frighten Allies Free Activity and manages to get the allies panicked so that they dont show up for the fight, do the allies still count for reward modifiers? yes - all allies that are prebuffed count - even if you dont bring them for any reason.
Sjiggie 07-20-07, 02:16 PM	Can a half-giant get Large armor spikes on his medium sized armor?
MindWandererB 07-20-07, 03:33 PM	Can a half-giant get Large armor spikes on his medium sized armor? Oddly, yes. They're weapons. I imagine it would look ridiculous, though.
Sjiggie 07-20-07, 03:35 PM	Well then Slade just have to look ridiculous ;) He'll be crafting a set of large armorspikes onto his armor next week
MindWandererB 07-20-07, 05:00 PM	So how does this work I know I don’t have to go on a quest to join, because Snaga is level 3. But can I get quest rewards and still go on a quest to join the guild? What’s the max value of items you can get when questing? Also Snaga should make a list of every spell the order can cast and put it in some kind of “Spell Library” wouldn’t that be cool? Could we get a reduced cost for scribing into spell books or some such (like for casters sharing a book) or is that too ambitious a thing to ask from the game master?(Transferred from TAO thread) You can go on a miniquest for RP if you like. Just find a questlord. Your rewards are the same as for a fight of that ECL; if you find items, they come out of your rewards (and similarly, if you don't want what you find, you can refuse them and get their cash value). So there's no real incentive to getting items via quest. Regarding discounts or whatnot: the guild sub-game is designed so that its participants recieve no benefits whatsoever for use in the main game. That's deliberate, or else players would be obligated to participate in the guild game to be competitive in the main game. So guild membership will never provide any concrete advantages to a character.
templer10 07-20-07, 06:04 PM	NM
hogarth 07-20-07, 06:12 PM	So guild membership will never provide any concrete advantages to a character. There's one tiny exception: guild membership gives you a +2 on your Leadership score to attract followers.
MindWandererB 07-20-07, 07:31 PM	There's one tiny exception: guild membership gives you a +2 on your Leadership score to attract followers. True, true. But that's such a minor benefit. And once we get the Community add-on going, that should provide an alternative means of getting the same bonus.
templer10 07-20-07, 08:06 PM	question - in a monster fight if an ECL 8 char faught 3 CR 4 monsters - how much XP/gold he gets - per the table for ECL 8 fight it's 2400/3400 but calculated individually it's 600 per each = 1800 - and if so - i wonder why we do 3 CR 4 monsters on the ecl 8 table- it means win or lose you get much less XP/GP and you are still liable for losing the same PR (for those that care).
Zevox 07-20-07, 08:09 PM	question - in a monster fight if an ECL 8 char faught 3 CR 4 monsters - how much XP/gold he gets - per the table for ECL 8 fight it's 2400/3400 but calculated individually it's 600 per each = 1800 - and if so - i wonder why we do 3 CR 4 monsters on the ecl 8 table- it means win or lose you get much less XP/GP and you are still liable for losing the same PR (for those that care). Um, 3 CR 4 monsters is an EL 7 match. If thats on the EL 8 table, its a mistake. But yes, they're calculated individually. Zevox
Rauul 07-20-07, 09:12 PM	Well corrupter was looking for a rematch to his failed miniquest (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=861669)... but Abyssal can't do it... So i am looking for a miniquest lord for August 1st.. for Corrupter ecl 8.. last fight of his cycle.. PM me if your interested... Also looking for a Miniquest lord to run a miniquest for Shadow to Join TAO next week... (or i can let MWB roll them random...)
MindWandererB 07-20-07, 09:39 PM	Um, 3 CR 4 monsters is an EL 7 match. If thats on the EL 8 table, its a mistake. But yes, they're calculated individually. Zevox Yes, it's a mistake. Now that's a good reason for removing the entry. In fact... the EL 8 table is pretty wonky. 6 Dire Bats? 9 Drow? Come on. If anyone wants to rewrite that table, I'll award a credit for it. Post it in the Council thread.
Vathelokai 07-20-07, 10:13 PM	Well corrupter was looking for a rematch to his failed miniquest (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=861669)... but Abyssal can't do it... So i am looking for a miniquest lord for August 1st.. for Corrupter ecl 8.. last fight of his cycle.. PM me if your interested... Also looking for a Miniquest lord to run a miniquest for Shadow to Join TAO next week... (or i can let MWB roll them random...) I'm the default guy for TAO quests, so if no one speaks up, you can assume I'll a take it.
Rauul 07-20-07, 10:43 PM	I'm the default guy for TAO quests, so if no one speaks up, you can assume I'll a take it. will do.. hope TAO needs an assassin in the future
Vathelokai 07-20-07, 11:28 PM	will do.. hope TAO needs an assassin in the future They're nice, but they keep retiring.... interesting that our alignment is taking a beating recently...:cool:
Zevox 07-20-07, 11:54 PM	will do.. hope TAO needs an assassin in the future They've already got one ;) . Zevox
Erithmu 07-21-07, 12:51 AM	I can run Corruptor's MQ for corpses ... I'll send you a PM tomorrow when I am home from flying.
Rauul 07-21-07, 01:00 AM	I can run Corruptor's MQ for corpses ... I'll send you a PM tomorrow when I am home from flying. eeps sorry Salrantol already asked for it... first come first to kill the corrupter it seems... sorry i wasn't faster on saying something
Rauul 07-21-07, 01:03 AM	They've already got one ;) . Zevox Bah we said assassin... not silly elf with bad manners.. LOL
NiQil 07-21-07, 01:14 AM	Bah we said assassin... not silly elf with bad manners.. LOL Careful....your half-orc is showing.
Zevox 07-21-07, 01:16 AM	Bah we said assassin... not silly elf with bad manners.. LOL Stealth is one of the bigger parts of Eraca's tactics - has been since her creation. One version of her I had planned at one point even included a level of Assassin (for the free castings of True Strike, poison use, and the sneak/death attack), though my present plan has her with more wizard levels instead. As her background says, shes a hunter, and not just of animals - don't see how it can get much clearer than that. As for manners, Eraca is not the social sort (her first name means "lone wolf" in Quenya Elvish), and shes long since found that the best way to discourage folks from trying to socialize with her is to treat them as she does. Zevox
McJarvis 07-21-07, 12:01 PM	Advertising How many people here actively promote the CoCo on other forums? I remember the only reason I even found the CoCo was because someone mentioned it on the CharOp threads. Perhaps some of the reason we don't get as many regulars/new people is because we don't promote as much? Just curious. I'd be willing to start surfin the CharOp boards again in order to try and levy interest in this place. Maybe even make up optimization questions regarding the rules here ;) [I think part of the reason I never found it except through word of mouth is that it isn't linked from the "Dungeons and Dragons" section of the boards]
Zevox 07-21-07, 12:12 PM	*shrugs* I keep the links in my signature, but thats about it. But then again, the only other section of these forums I frequent are the FR ones, and most of the other folk there would have little to no real interest here. Not enough RP going on for their tastes, plus many of them only play D&D because it happens to be the game whose rules FR uses (which was actually how I started playing D&D myself, so I can certainly understand 'em there). Zevox
hogarth 07-21-07, 12:35 PM	I occasionally look at the Character Optimization boards. If I see a topic that I think is relevant, I'll point towards the Core Coliseum sometimes. E.g.: "I'm going to be playing in an arena combat tournament with my buddies using only core books. What's a good build?" --> I'll point them to a few characters here and maybe suggest some rules (e.g. limits on the number of charged items you can bring). "Who would win in a fight -- a druid or a psion?" --> I pointed them to a Gaston vs. Aerryl fight and a Wisp vs. Treetall Oakleg fight. "Who would win in a fight -- a fighter or an adept?" --> I pointed them to the Izumi vs. svirfneblin adept fight (although that wasn't necessarily a perfect example). And I have a link in my sig. I noticed that a few people looked at the Gaston vs. Aerryl fight based on my post, but I don't think they stuck around for anything else. Advertising How many people here actively promote the CoCo on other forums? I remember the only reason I even found the CoCo was because someone mentioned it on the CharOp threads. Perhaps some of the reason we don't get as many regulars/new people is because we don't promote as much? Just curious. I'd be willing to start surfin the CharOp boards again in order to try and levy interest in this place. Maybe even make up optimization questions regarding the rules here ;) [I think part of the reason I never found it except through word of mouth is that it isn't linked from the "Dungeons and Dragons" section of the boards]
Rauul 07-21-07, 01:49 PM	does it count as 2 activations for a guild miniquest (to join) or just 1?
Rauul 07-21-07, 01:58 PM	i wanna thank all the people who offered to do my miniquests.. I was getting scared that Telin may offer... Salrantol has corrupter on Aug 1 Malither76 has Shadow July 25 never expected 5 offers to run miniquests for all my failures... You guys rock!
MindWandererB 07-21-07, 03:19 PM	does it count as 2 activations for a guild miniquest (to join) or just 1? All MQs cost 2 activations.
Vathelokai 07-22-07, 01:36 PM	If a clerics favored weapon is a double weapon (quarterstaff), can/does the spiritual weapon spell attack as a double weapon, or is it always a single attack (unless your BAB gives more)?
Yitzi 07-22-07, 01:59 PM	Always a single attack, just like it's always the same damage whether a dagger or a greataxe.
templer10 07-22-07, 04:21 PM	If you get an intelligent mount as a cohort as a pegasus Can you buy him the combat riding package like a bought pegasus?
MindWandererB 07-22-07, 05:07 PM	If you get an intelligent mount as a cohort as a pegasus Can you buy him the combat riding package like a bought pegasus? I should think that would work. It would take 6 weeks, unfortunately, but there's no reason why not.
templer10 07-22-07, 05:54 PM	I should think that would work. It would take 6 weeks, unfortunately, but there's no reason why not. Actually i meant - why you Buy a pegasus you can just have it come pre trained - shouldnt you be able to pay the same gold and have teh cohort be pre trained - since getting +10 handle animal needed to train the pegasus yourself isnt easy for most class's. and if you cant - what exacly happene if you ride an intelligent mount who is a cohort without combat riding?
Zevox 07-22-07, 08:59 PM	Actually i meant - why you Buy a pegasus you can just have it come pre trained - shouldnt you be able to pay the same gold and have teh cohort be pre trained - since getting +10 handle animal needed to train the pegasus yourself isnt easy for most class's. and if you cant - what exacly happene if you ride an intelligent mount who is a cohort without combat riding? +15 Handle Animal, actually - a Pegasus is a magical beast, which adds +5 to the DC to train it. I'd be inclined to allow it, personally. Seems to me theres no real reason not to. Those who want to train such a cohort themselves can always opt not to pay the training cost (I plan on doing that with Mithos Durrol), but this would give those without such good handle animal a way to get it trained without waiting six weeks. Zevox
templer10 07-23-07, 02:06 AM	+15 Handle Animal, actually - a Pegasus is a magical beast, which adds +5 to the DC to train it. I'd be inclined to allow it, personally. Seems to me theres no real reason not to. Those who want to train such a cohort themselves can always opt not to pay the training cost (I plan on doing that with Mithos Durrol), but this would give those without such good handle animal a way to get it trained without waiting six weeks. Zevox could some of the other elders pipe in? iam seriusly considering something like it.
MindWandererB 07-23-07, 02:10 AM	We also don't require free activities to have an animal trained by a trainer, so requiring it here is a tad inconsistent. I'd also agree that it's reasonable.
hogarth 07-23-07, 06:37 AM	We also don't require free activities to have an animal trained by a trainer, so requiring it here is a tad inconsistent. I'd also agree that it's reasonable. I'm not sure what you mean by this. Having an animal trained by an NPC doesn't take free activities (of course), but it does take time as well: Animals, Magical Beasts, and similar allies acquired on quests can be trained by a trainer which takes a week per trick (this does not count against a character's Free Activities).
MindWandererB 07-23-07, 12:23 PM	I'm not sure what you mean by this. Having an animal trained by an NPC doesn't take free activities (of course), but it does take time as well: Yeah, but we don't document that in any way, so there's no way to check it.
Eamane 07-23-07, 04:57 PM	Greetings, I've just made a character and posted it on the Characters of Gladius thread, I was wondering if any of you fine experienced fellows would mind looking it over for glaring horrible mistakes that will keep me from winning this week? The link is here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=13165723&postcount=1189). It's a simple enough character, Gray Elf Psion (Kineticist), there have been plenty about before, I'm sure. -Thanks in advance.
Callix 07-23-07, 05:02 PM	Looks fine ruleswise. Might I suggest that you buy some sort of melee weapon. Also, elves are automatically proficient with bows, so that may be of more use than a sling. You can freely change your sheet before this Wednesday's deadline, since it's the character's first fight.
Salrantol 07-23-07, 05:05 PM	Don't forget to list your automatic skill package at the top of your sheet and link it to the automatic skill package rules.
hogarth 07-23-07, 05:11 PM	The link is here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=13165723&postcount=1189). It's a simple enough character, Gray Elf Psion (Kineticist), there have been plenty about before, I'm sure. -Thanks in advance. Nice diacritical marks. :) If it were me, I would start him at middle age (-1 to str/dex/con, +1 to int/wis/cha). That might require shuffling around some stat points (dropping his strength, for instance), but on the plus side he can get a 22 Int at level 4 (which is only a few fights away) rather than a less useful 21 Int. YMMV.
Eamane 07-23-07, 07:28 PM	Thanks for the suggestions and reminder about linking automatic skill packages. I switched the sling out for a light crossbow, which turned out to weigh the exact same amount as crossbow bolts are /much/ lighter than sling bullets. Also purchased a longsword, which made choosing a picture all that much harder, heh.
Airwhale 07-23-07, 10:08 PM	Hey guys, I just wanted to make sure that I understood a couple of things: First, the *blank hours have passed* are between the last fight and the current fight, correct? So, I don't know how many hours have passed between the last battle my charicter has been in and the next weeks battle, right? Second, Can I pre-buff a (CL1) mage armor before the fight from a scroll? Seems kind of cheesy, so I figured I would ask first.
hogarth 07-23-07, 10:25 PM	Hey guys, I just wanted to make sure that I understood a couple of things: First, the *blank hours have passed* are between the last fight and the current fight, correct? So, I don't know how many hours have passed between the last battle my charicter has been in and the next weeks battle, right? Second, Can I pre-buff a (CL1) mage armor before the fight from a scroll? Seems kind of cheesy, so I figured I would ask first. Since the time roll is always at least equal to 1, a CL 1 mage armor pre-buff will always expire by the time the battle begins.
MindWandererB 07-23-07, 11:14 PM	And yes, you are correct. If you want to be guaranteed of having a prebuff stil be active, its duration will have to be greater than 6 hours.
lonewolf 07-24-07, 07:43 AM	How do Energy Missile and Mirror Image interact? Can the manifester of Energy missile choose to target the images individually and thus destroying them or does that count as area damage and thus doesnt destroy the images? I believe its the former, but Im not sure.
templer10 07-24-07, 08:51 AM	How do Energy Missile and Mirror Image interact? Can the manifester of Energy missile choose to target the images individually and thus destroying them or does that count as area damage and thus doesnt destroy the images? I believe its the former, but Im not sure. it's like magic missile - each missile destroy 1 image.
SoulLord 07-24-07, 11:44 AM	Would someone be so kind as to point me to the latest ruling on crafting staffs. Thanks
Rauul 07-24-07, 12:12 PM	Question for the Elders... How would a player character go about killing off council members.. Quests, Miniquests.. Guild missions?
Rauul 07-24-07, 01:11 PM	Need to know what a masterworked, none magical Floppy hat with a huge feather costs... am serious as can be about this now... (masterworked is so it can be Enchanted later on...)
MindWandererB 07-24-07, 01:19 PM	Would someone be so kind as to point me to the latest ruling on crafting staffs.I'm not sure what rules you're referring to. For DMG staffs, crafting them works like anything else. Custom staffs are handled in the black market, and I believe you'll find all the relevant rules there.Question for the Elders... How would a player character go about killing off council members.. Quests, Miniquests.. Guild missions?The Council and its members exist only in RP, and with one or two exceptions, none even have names. The ones that have names are sort of the intellectual property of whoever's used them before, but the others are fair game. If you want to RP a character who assassinates council members, it would basically be just like the way Bulgar hunts a dragon every level--find a questlord and go for it.Need to know what a masterworked, none magical Floppy hat with a huge feather costs... am serious as can be about this now... (masterworked is so it can be Enchanted later on...)Mundane clothes are free. There's no such thing as a masterwork hat. If you want to do something to a mundane hat now (like put a Continual Flame on it) and later turn it into a hat of disguise or whatever, that should be no problem.
templer10 07-24-07, 01:38 PM	anyone intrested in running a Cohort gaining quest for my guy - longshot - ECL 9 - this week? p.s. - if that option to skip the MQ and still gain the benefit for credits is already decided/no objection - ill prefer - but i doubt it's here already.
SoulLord 07-24-07, 01:40 PM	That's precisely the thing If im not mistaken there was a discussion and a ruling to make wands & staff credit cost free. so you could make wands & staffs just following the dmg guidelines. but I have been unable to find it.
TelinArtho 07-24-07, 01:51 PM	Custom staves still cost credits. Wands do not.
SoulLord 07-24-07, 03:03 PM	Custom staves still cost credits. Wands do not. Thanks that's what I was looking for You may pay 15° to get the right to buy Custom Thematic Staffs. Such a Staff must be at least CL 8, and can contain as few as 1 spell. All spells must be related in some way, and the Elder in charge of the Blackmarket decides whether the composition is a valid one. A new staff always comes with 50 charges, and no spell can cost more than 5 charges per use. Note that you also have to pay for a higher CL if yours is not high enough (see 'Custom Spell Trigger Items' above). Example: Staff of the Night (Entropic shield, Darkness, Deeper Darkness) so same theme and 15 credits oh well it seems I'll have to pick something else maybe maximize or quicken spell. and just to have it in writing. it doesnt matter wheter you buy or craft it right? it still costs 15 credits
Macbrea 07-24-07, 05:10 PM	I am not sure if I have this correct now for Razorfang (Worg 4/Monk1) with Str 20. Attacks Single Attacking Primary weapon: Bite +9 melee, 1d6 + 7, Crit 20/x2 [+5 Str, +4 BAB] OR Unarmed Strike: Unarmed +9 melee, 1d6 + 5, Crit 20/x2 [+5 Str, +4 BAB] Full attack Primary weapon: Bite +9 melee, 1d6 + 7, Crit 20/x2 [+5 Str, +4 BAB] Secondary Unarmed Strike: Unarmed +4 melee, 1d6 + 2, Crit 20/x2 [+5 Str, +4 BAB -5 secondary] OR Primary Unarmed Strike: Unarmed +9 melee, 1d6 + 5, Crit 20/x2 [+5 Str, +4 BAB] Off-handed weapon: Bite +5 melee, 1d6 + 2, Crit 20/x2 [+5 Str, +4 BAB -4 offhanded light weapon] OR Flurry of Blows Unarmed Strike: Unarmed +7/+7 melee, 1d6 + 5, Crit 20/x2 [+5 Str, +4 BAB, -2 Flurry] Does the Bite in the second to last case still count as the only natural attack and therefore a two handed weapon?
templer10 07-24-07, 05:12 PM	i want to make sure - when a druid has an animated shield it's not absorbed into him when he wildshapes - correct?
MindWandererB 07-24-07, 05:19 PM	I am not sure if I have this correct now for Razorfang (Worg 4/Monk1) with Str 20. Attacks Single Attacking Primary weapon: Bite +9 melee, 1d6 + 7, Crit 20/x2 [+5 Str, +4 BAB] OR Unarmed Strike: Unarmed +9 melee, 1d6 + 5, Crit 20/x2 [+5 Str, +4 BAB] Full attack Primary weapon: Bite +9 melee, 1d6 + 7, Crit 20/x2 [+5 Str, +4 BAB] Secondary Unarmed Strike: Unarmed +4 melee, 1d6 + 2, Crit 20/x2 [+5 Str, +4 BAB -5 secondary] OR Primary Unarmed Strike: Unarmed +9 melee, 1d6 + 5, Crit 20/x2 [+5 Str, +4 BAB] Off-handed weapon: Bite +5 melee, 1d6 + 2, Crit 20/x2 [+5 Str, +4 BAB -4 offhanded light weapon] OR Flurry of Blows Unarmed Strike: Unarmed +7/+7 melee, 1d6 + 5, Crit 20/x2 [+5 Str, +4 BAB, -2 Flurry] Does the Bite in the second to last case still count as the only natural attack and therefore a two handed weapon?Not quite right. When you use a natural weapon and a non-natural weapon (including unarmed strikes) in the same routine, then either the natural weapon is secondary or the non-natural weapon is off-hand. You can't have a secondary unarmed strike. Your second full attack is also off: natural weapons are secondary attacks, not off-hand attacks. So the attack roll is at -5, not -4, with Str 1/2 because it's secondary--doesn't matter if it's the only natural attack. With the third, you have no reason not to throw a bite in there, which would be at +2 to hit, 1d6+2 damage. Oh, and FYI, whenever you use an off-hand attack, your on-hand attack takes the penalty as well. Without TWF, the primary attack is at -4 and the secondary is at -8. Not typically a good idea. @templer: hmm. I can't see why not. Nice idea.
Macbrea 07-24-07, 05:22 PM	I was following "Rules of the game' All about unarmed 2 and 3 to get those numbers. You have a choice wether to use bite as the primary weapon or as the secondary weapon.
MindWandererB 07-24-07, 05:26 PM	I was following "Rules of the game' All about unarmed 2 and 3 to get those numbers. You have a choice wether to use bite as the primary weapon or as the secondary weapon. Yes, but you got it backwards. When the bite is primary, the unarmed strike is off hand (and both attacks take standard TWF penalties); when the unarmed strike is primary, the natural weapon is secondary. And there is no article 4 in that series....
Macbrea 07-24-07, 05:28 PM	Does this rule apply to the Unarmed strike class feature when wielding a bite? 'This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes.'
Macbrea 07-24-07, 05:31 PM	Ah, so, your saying: Attacks Single Attacking Primary weapon: Bite +9 melee, 1d6 + 7, Crit 20/x2 [+5 Str, +4 BAB] OR Unarmed Strike: Unarmed +9 melee, 1d6 + 5, Crit 20/x2 [+5 Str, +4 BAB] Full attack Primary weapon: Bite +9 melee, 1d6 + 7, Crit 20/x2 [+5 Str, +4 BAB] Secondary Unarmed Strike: Unarmed +5 melee, 1d6 + 2, Crit 20/x2 [+5 Str, +4 BAB -4 off handed] OR Primary Unarmed Strike: Unarmed +9 melee, 1d6 + 5, Crit 20/x2 [+5 Str, +4 BAB] Off-handed weapon: Bite +4 melee, 1d6 + 2, Crit 20/x2 [+5 Str, +4 BAB -5 Secondary] OR Flurry of Blows Unarmed Strike: Unarmed +7/+7 melee, 1d6 + 5, Crit 20/x2 [+5 Str, +4 BAB, -2 Flurry]
templer10 07-24-07, 06:00 PM	i want to make sure - when a druid has an animated shield it's not absorbed into him when he wildshapes - correct? Bump
MindWandererB 07-24-07, 06:00 PM	Close. It should read like this: Attacks Single Attacking Primary weapon: Bite +9 melee, 1d6 + 7, Crit 20/x2 [+5 Str, +4 BAB] OR Unarmed Strike: Unarmed +9 melee, 1d6 + 5, Crit 20/x2 [+5 Str, +4 BAB] Full attack Primary weapon: Bite +9 +5 melee, 1d6 + 7, Crit 20/x2 [+5 Str, +4 BAB, -4 TWF] Secondary Off-hand Unarmed Strike: Unarmed +5 +1 melee, 1d6 + 2, Crit 20/x2 [+5 Str, +4 BAB -4 off handed, -4 TWF] OR Primary Unarmed Strike: Unarmed +9 melee, 1d6 + 5, Crit 20/x2 [+5 Str, +4 BAB] Off-handed weapon Secondary bite : Bite +4 melee, 1d6 + 2, Crit 20/x2 [+5 Str, +4 BAB -5 Secondary] OR Flurry of Blows Unarmed Strike Attack Routine: Unarmed +7/+7 melee, 1d6 + 5, Crit 20/x2 [+5 Str, +4 BAB, -2 Flurry] and Bite +2 melee, 1d6+2, Crit 20/x2 [+5 str, +4 BAB, -2 Flurry, -5 Secondary]
MindWandererB 07-24-07, 06:01 PM	Bump .@templer: hmm. I can't see why not. Nice idea..
SoulLord 07-24-07, 06:13 PM	Thanks that's what I was looking for and just to have it in writing. it doesnt matter wheter you buy or craft a staff it right? it still costs 15 credits anyone?
MindWandererB 07-24-07, 06:16 PM	anyone? If it's not in the DMG, correct.
Macbrea 07-24-07, 06:30 PM	Close. It should read like this: Attacks Single Attacking Full attack Primary weapon: Bite +9 +5 melee, 1d6 + 7, Crit 20/x2 [+5 Str, +4 BAB, -4 TWF] Secondary Off-hand Unarmed Strike: Unarmed +5 +1 melee, 1d6 + 2, Crit 20/x2 [+5 Str, +4 BAB -4 off handed, -4 TWF] Errr. -4 off hand and -4 TWF? Those are the same aren't they? And you cannot use flurry of blows with a natural weapon. Which according to the rules article means you cannot use it in the last attack set.
Callix 07-24-07, 06:34 PM	No. You take the off-hand penalty for any weapon used in the off hand. You take the TWF penalty on all attack rolls while fighting with multiple weapons. You can avoid all those penalties by making the bite attack secondary, with a -5 to hit. But any other configurations give a -4 with the primary and a -8 with the secondary. Your choice.
Macbrea 07-24-07, 06:38 PM	The reason I am getting so silly about listing all the methods now. Is it will make a big difference later when he is: Worg 7HD/Monk 3/Psionic fist 4 (ECL 15) Stone of ExpansionA (ML 7) Powers active: Bite of the wolf, Claws of the Beast At the point it doesn't really matter.. but it might later.
Macbrea 07-24-07, 06:40 PM	No. You take the off-hand penalty for any weapon used in the off hand. You take the TWF penalty on all attack rolls while fighting with multiple weapons. You can avoid all those penalties by making the bite attack secondary, with a -5 to hit. But any other configurations give a -4 with the primary and a -8 with the secondary. Your choice. Monk never takes off-hand penalty for attacking with hands. That is written in Unarmed strike class feature.
MindWandererB 07-24-07, 06:49 PM	Monk never takes off-hand penalty for attacking with hands. That is written in Unarmed strike class feature. That's actually just poorly phrased. A right-handed monk takes no penalty for attacking with his left hand, unless he's using two-weapon fighting. Some FAQ quotes should clear this up: Can a monk who has natural weapon attacks (such as a centaur monk) attack unarmed and still use his natural weapons? For example, let’s say he’s a 4th-level monk. Can he use a flurry of blows and attack at +5/+5/+0 unarmed (plus other bonuses) and then at +0/+0 for 2 hooves? If the creature normally is allowed to make both weapon attacks and natural weapon attacks as part of the same full attack routine, the monk can do the same (making unarmed strikes in place of weapon attacks). Since a centaur can make two hoof attacks in addition to his longsword attack, a centaur monk can make two hoof attacks in addition to his unarmed strike attack (or attacks, depending on his base attack bonus). The monk can’t use his natural weapon attacks as part of a flurry of blows, but he can make natural weapon attacks in addition to his flurry. Such attacks suffer the same –2 penalty as the monk’s flurry attacks in addition to the normal –5 penalty for secondary natural attacks. Can a monk fight with two weapons? Can she combine a two-weapon attack with a flurry of blows? What are her penalties on attack rolls? A monk can fight with two weapons just like any other character, but she must accept the normal penalties on her attack rolls to do so. She can use an unarmed strike as an offhand weapon. She can even combine two-weapon fighting with a flurry of blows to gain an extra attack with her off hand (but remember that she can use only unarmed strikes or special monk weapons as part of the flurry). The penalties for twoweapon fighting stack with the penalties for flurry of blows. For example, at 6th level, the monk Ember can normally make one attack per round at a +4 bonus. When using flurry of blows, she can make two attacks (using unarmed strikes or any special monk weapons she holds), each at a +3 bonus. If she wants to make an extra attack with her off hand, she has to accept a –4 penalty on her primary hand attacks and a –8 penalty on her off-hand attacks (assuming she wields a light weapon in her off hand). Edit: You might have problems with Claws of the Wolf. See, the power explicitly says it transforms your hands into claws. If you have no hands, I don't think it'll work.
Macbrea 07-24-07, 07:09 PM	So, according to that. I cannot bite during a flurry because it's not a monk weapon. Ok, I guess it goes bite as secondary. hmm. oh, well.
templer10 07-25-07, 03:42 AM	Hey - i still need (if anyone care to volunteer) a miniquest lord for a leadership quest at ECL 9 (for longshot). ty.
Yitzi 07-25-07, 12:32 PM	Question: What would be the proper body slot affinity for a custom Open Lock item?
TelinArtho 07-25-07, 12:35 PM	Well - the vest of escape sets precedence that a vest would be fine. Personally I would feel gloves ("quickness"? ok - how about "Fine movement") would work well myself.
lonewolf 07-25-07, 12:41 PM	I think that enchantet Thieves Tools should work as well.
Yitzi 07-25-07, 03:47 PM	I think that enchantet Thieves Tools should work as well. Where does it discuss enchanted tools? I think I'll go with gloves.
Vathelokai 07-25-07, 04:14 PM	Where does it discuss enchanted tools? I think I'll go with gloves. They would be a 'slotless' item, so they would be double price.
lonewolf 07-25-07, 04:17 PM	They would be a 'slotless' item, so they would be double price. I disagree. They would use your "held" slot while used. Weapons and wands are also not slotless.
Yitzi 07-25-07, 04:19 PM	I didn't ask what slot enchanted tools would be, I asked what is the source that they are even possible?
Sjiggie 07-25-07, 04:22 PM	I believe he means masterwork thieves tool who give a +2 circumstance bonus to Disable Device and Open Lock. If you can enchant them just like armor/weapons those bonusses would become higher.
The Dread Dormammu 07-25-07, 04:43 PM	I just realized I didn't post my results for my last fight but it's after 12:00 pm on Wednesday. What should I do?
TelinArtho 07-25-07, 04:51 PM	PM your pitlord and opponent letting them know the specifics of it. It shouldn't be an issue.
lonewolf 07-25-07, 05:04 PM	just to be sure on the current ruling on Deflect Arrows: If you are hidden and snipe at a character with Deflect arrows, he is not aware of the attack and thus not able to deflect it, right?
Sjiggie 07-25-07, 05:09 PM	@ Lonewolf that is correct using deflect arrow requires you to be aware of the attack so if your opponent is hidden you aren't aware of the attack and can't use deflect arrows. @ The Dread Dormammu Next time when you update your sheet after a fight copy the 3-fight cycle information from the fight. The summary in the fight post is different that from your sheet.
TelinArtho 07-25-07, 05:09 PM	Correct. If you are hidden before your attack, your opponent might be able to see you after the attack, but not in enough time to react to deflect the incoming attack.
Vathelokai 07-25-07, 11:27 PM	@Guildlords: responses sent...
Callix 07-26-07, 03:32 AM	A quick question: If you resist a trip attack and respond with a free trip check, which the opponent wins (they resist), do they get another chance to trip you?
TheMagister 07-26-07, 03:45 AM	Not to my knowledge. The reactive trip is a one-way street.
MindWandererB 07-26-07, 03:47 AM	A quick question: If you resist a trip attack and respond with a free trip check, which the opponent wins (they resist), do they get another chance to trip you? No. Otherwise, every trip attempt would end up with somebody being tripped... and could take a lot of rolling.
Eamane 07-26-07, 03:50 AM	Heya guys, I've got another small favor to ask. I'm thinking about making my kineticist into a Cerebremancer, have there been any successful 'mancer builds in Gladius' history so far? I was planning on taking three levels of wizard immediately and relying heavily on expendables to remain competitive for a few levels, but alternatively I could wait for awhile then take three levels of Assassin to qualify; a slightly less standard manner, certainly taking longer to come to fruition, heh.
Callix 07-26-07, 03:50 AM	Cool. Thought I'd ask. The wording was a bit ambiguous, as you gain a reactive trip after resisting the exact check you make in response. And it says "may", so someone who knows they'll probably lose the tripfest can just not bother tripping back. But I'm not complaining.
TheMagister 07-26-07, 04:01 AM	The resistor can always choose to not take advantage of his resist attempt.
templer10 07-26-07, 04:01 AM	Heya guys, I've got another small favor to ask. I'm thinking about making my kineticist into a Cerebremancer, have there been any successful 'mancer builds in Gladius' history so far? I was planning on taking three levels of wizard immediately and relying heavily on expendables to remain competitive for a few levels, but alternatively I could wait for awhile then take three levels of Assassin to qualify; a slightly less standard manner, certainly taking longer to come to fruition, heh. cant off teh top of my head think of one - you are going to have tough going for a while. there is btw a pherenic wizard at ECL 10 i thik atthe moment which gets a lot of very usefull Psi like abilities which is practicly a mancer if you want to check it out - dont remmber name. if you going to start at ECL3 i would reccomend going 1 psion/2wizard for the free feat in the start and being able to use psioninc expendbles right from the start 2. you might also want to concetrate on ranged touch spells/powers since those pay off early and you will have a long road ahead before you get many decent Save or crap spells (expet color spray/sleep).
Yitzi 07-26-07, 08:32 AM	Heya guys, I've got another small favor to ask. I'm thinking about making my kineticist into a Cerebremancer, have there been any successful 'mancer builds in Gladius' history so far? Wasn't the winner of Iron Man a 'mancer?
Sjiggie 07-26-07, 08:39 AM	That was Raskos a Phrenic Psion/Wizard Cerebremancer he uses the Phrenic template to his best you should check him for ideas.
lonewolf 07-26-07, 08:39 AM	Wasn't the winner of Iron Man a 'mancer? He was: Raskos the Jade Father
Zevox 07-26-07, 12:21 PM	There has also been one other fairly successful Cerebremancer here in the past, Rook Devange, a Gray Elf Diviner/Kineticist played by the former Elder Huan. Unfortunately Huan was in the process of rebuilding him starting from level 3 when he left, so theres not much to see on his sheet, though if you want to look him over its here. Zevox
Korone 07-26-07, 01:19 PM	How do you calculate the number of spells a wizard know above first level ? Can't seems to find this information anywhere, as usual.
Macbrea 07-26-07, 01:27 PM	Quote: At each new wizard level, she gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that she can cast (based on her new wizard level) for her spellbook. At any time, a wizard can also add spells found in other wizards’ spellbooks to her own. So, a 5th level wizard (18 int) should know 0 - All 1st - 3 (base) + 4 (int) + 2 (2nd) = 9 2nd - 2 (3rd) + 2 (4th) = 4 3rd - 2 (5th) = 2
Yitzi 07-26-07, 01:31 PM	When taking a prestige class such as archmage, mystic theurge, or arcane trickster, do you get new spells in your spellbook with each level?
Macbrea 07-26-07, 01:36 PM	Hmm, not sure.. oh, I missed one quote on that last one that is important, 'If she has chosen to specialize in a school of magic, one of the two free spells must be from her specialty school.'
Korone 07-26-07, 01:37 PM	Thanks. Though, can you point out this to me where it says that ? While looking through two different SRD (That one (http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm) and that one (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/home.html)) it says nothing on the Wizards spells known under the 'spells' description, as where it should be, at least to me.
Macbrea 07-26-07, 01:42 PM	OK, I use the first SRD. So, first quote is on Wizard Class Paragraph titled Spellbook. Second quote is Magic overview>Adding Spells to a Wizard’s Spellbook>Spells Gained at a New Level
Korone 07-26-07, 01:47 PM	Ah, ok. I understand it now. I'm blind. Guess that's what happen when you have the thing you're searching for right in front of your face. :rolleyes:
waywreth 07-26-07, 01:48 PM	That was Raskos a Phrenic Psion/Wizard Cerebremancer he uses the Phrenic template to his best you should check him for ideas. I would also contend that the advanced Yeth Hound Yaurl played a determining factor in Raskos winning the Iron Man. The advantage of having that sort of ally is no long an option. This is not to take away from Sauro and Raskos, but to point out that given the rule changes, such a build would fare differently.
Zevox 07-26-07, 01:49 PM	I would also contend that the advanced Yeth Hound Yaurl played a determining factor in Raskos winning the Iron Man. The advantage of having that sort of ally is no long an option. This is not to take away from Sauro and Raskos, but to point out that given the rule changes, such a build would fare differently. Considering that right after the Iron Man ended Raskos lost a match to my Asran, who was eliminated in round 1 of the Iron Man, I'd say thats a fair observation. ;) Zevox
Macbrea 07-26-07, 01:52 PM	Honestly though, I am not exactly sure if you are suppose to get the 2 new spells if you level as a prestige class. You do gain new spells known when you gain levels of sorcerer but those you cannot do without. It is a safe judgement for a DM to say if you gain a level of a class that gives you +1 existing spell caster level and you gain a level of wizard spell casting the spells are part of it. But it isn't really spelled out anywhere in the rules.
Hirumajoe 07-26-07, 03:31 PM	Honestly though, I am not exactly sure if you are suppose to get the 2 new spells if you level as a prestige class. You do gain new spells known when you gain levels of sorcerer but those you cannot do without. It is a safe judgement for a DM to say if you gain a level of a class that gives you +1 existing spell caster level and you gain a level of wizard spell casting the spells are part of it. But it isn't really spelled out anywhere in the rules. Its hard to find in the 3.0 FAQ, but its there. I can’t find any information about how many spells prestige class spellcasters know. I am going on the presumption that those that gain bonus spells per day of their existing class (such as loremaster and spellsword) do not automatically add additional spells to their spellbook as they gain levels. They do add spells to their lists. For example, a wizard /loremaster gains 2 spells for her spellbook when using a loremaster level to increase spellcasting. A sorcerer/loremaster would learn more spells as well. Adding spells to your spellbook or personal repertoire is part of spellcasting.
TheMagister 07-26-07, 07:40 PM	Question: Does casting a wall of stone/ice/force spell while under the effects of the invisibility spell qualify as an offensive action? I understand the intent of the caster and the implimentation of the spell is inherent in the DMs decision, but all three of those spells are defensive in nature. How could you cast a wall of stone offensively? Even if shaped to trap an opponent (in an alcove for example, or to divide enemy forces), you still are not causing harm to that opponent -- its just a coincidence that they're standing near to where you want your wall to appear. For example: if an opponent had been knocked into the aforementioned alcove, and the alcove just happened to actually be a fully burning fireplace, I think an invisible caster could easily seal that person in there with a wall of force and be completely justified in staying invisible. After all, it's not the wall that's causing damage, it's the result of the unfortunate creature's situation. If summoning a creature doesn't break invis, I don't think creating a wall should, unless it's 1) a wall of fire shaped to cause damage to creatures or 2) a wall of thorns, cast to include creatures in its AoE.
MindWandererB 07-26-07, 08:08 PM	Question: Does casting a wall of stone/ice/force spell while under the effects of the invisibility spell qualify as an offensive action? I understand the intent of the caster and the implimentation of the spell is inherent in the DMs decision, but all three of those spells are defensive in nature. How could you cast a wall of stone offensively? Even if shaped to trap an opponent (in an alcove for example, or to divide enemy forces), you still are not causing harm to that opponent -- its just a coincidence that they're standing near to where you want your wall to appear. For example: if an opponent had been knocked into the aforementioned alcove, and the alcove just happened to actually be a fully burning fireplace, I think an invisible caster could easily seal that person in there with a wall of force and be completely justified in staying invisible. After all, it's not the wall that's causing damage, it's the result of the unfortunate creature's situation. If summoning a creature doesn't break invis, I don't think creating a wall should, unless it's 1) a wall of fire shaped to cause damage to creatures or 2) a wall of thorns, cast to include creatures in its AoE. An offensive action ("attack") is defined by anything that includes an enemy in its area of effect. By that definition, a Wall of Stone cast to trap an opponent would not break Invis, because by definition its AoE surrounds, but does not include, the opponent. Even a Wall of Thorns might or might not break Invis, depending on whether you put thorns directly into the opponent's square. So basically, yeah, I agree with you.
TheMagister 07-26-07, 08:12 PM	Question raised b/c of the Inquisition Mission. I want the mission to succeed! Don't get me wrong! But the decision made me raise my eyebrows.
MindWandererB 07-26-07, 08:29 PM	Question raised b/c of the Inquisition Mission. I want the mission to succeed! Don't get me wrong! But the decision made me raise my eyebrows. So the question is whether that wall of ice should have spoiled Mr. X's invisibility? (I'm having a hard time following that fight.) If so, then yeah, it should. Even though he didn't intend to, he slapped it down in the same space occupied by Kracknol and Lydia, which meets the criteria for ending invis. If they'd both failed their saves, my opinion is that he'd stay invisible.
TheMagister 07-26-07, 08:45 PM	Well, you CAN'T summon a wall of ice in a space occupied by creatures. Such a summoning causes the spell to autofail (has to be complete and unbroken, blah blah) and it wouldn't be an attack anyway (just a completely harmless and wasted action). If there's not room in the combat space to summon it, then the intrepid heroes just got fantastically lucky as the eons-long experience and pride of the bone devil caused it to misplace its best defensive option. {shrug} More power to 'em, I say. They'll need all the help they can get vs. Telin and his dice.
TheMagister 07-26-07, 09:04 PM	Rubicanti is coming up on a milestone in his career. Mostly, it's the point at which he can afford some hefty items. After this cycle's over, he's gonna have ~15,000gp to spend. I've got some ideas, and I'm honestly torn. Comparison: Monk's Belt (13,000 gp) +1 AC, +2 avg dmg, +1 stunning attack Boots of Speed (12,000 gp) +1 AC, +1 reflex, +1 to hit, +20 speed, +1 attack in a flurry. The Small Stuff (11,000 gp) 1) Ring of Protection (2000): +1 deflection 2) Amulet Nat Armor (2000): +1 natural 3) Gauntlets of Dex (3000): +1 dodge AC and to hit 4) Periapt of Wisdom (4000): +1 dodge AC and +1 DC stun and 1 pp The Monk's Belt looks like a sucker bet at first glance, but at 9th level Rubi could get Improved Natural Attack. That'll turn that 1d6=>1d10=>2d8, which is pretty darned impressive. The AC is nice (stacks with everything) and the extra stun is okay. The Boots of Speed make me salivate. Rubi's all about aggressiveness, and he's made for full attack melee. The Boots enhance everything that good about him. They make him harder to hit, make him hit more often (+1 to attacks), and maximize his number of attacks per round in a flurry. The last is most important because he ends up with more bang-for-his buck: 1 more instance of 1d6+1d8+2d6+2+1. Now that is a damage increase! The Small Stuff is the defender's choice. +4 AC, +1 to hit, better stuns, and an extra 1 pp make for a compelling argument. Not to mention the fact that it saves me an action (no need to cast thicken skin during a fight). My biggest problem with all of these choices is this: at these higher levels, nearly everybody he fights has access to dispel magic/psionics (more psions = uncounterable dispels) and/or magical/psionic flight and/or high speed melee avoidance. As odd as it sounds, I'm highly tempted to get Rubi a friggin' horse, or an item that casts mount, or a bronze griffon/ebony fly figurine. You people just won't stand still and let him pummel you! :D All the same, my pocketbook winces when I talk to it of spending all that hard-earned cash on an ally. See, I hate 'em. Allies, that is. Maybe the solution to all this is Leadership at 9th level. A 6th or 7th level sorcerer could solve all of Rubi's problems with fly on round 1 and haste on round 2. But I hate it! I hate my character giving up a feat slot and I hate my character being dependant on another entity for his success (even if my character controls that entity). It bothers me like a sharp stone in my shoe. Still, I'm forced to admit that it is the most elegant choice. A well-buffed monk is a fearsome thing. Anyhow -- end diatribe. Given: Rubi takes Leadership at 9th and gains a spellcasting cohort. Proof: which item/mix of items would benefit him more? Addendum: what items left out could also benefit him? Appreciate the help, ya'll.
MindWandererB 07-26-07, 09:06 PM	For the purpose of breaking Invis, an action doesn't have to be harmful. It just has to include an enemy in its area of effect. Cast Fireball on a red dragon and you still lose your invisibility. Just because the placement caused the spell to fail doesn't mean it wasn't "placed" in the heroes' spaces. Re: Rubicanti: Bear in mind, you need flight. Period. If you aren't getting a flying mount, then either your cohort needs to cast it on you or you need winged boots or the like. Maybe not now, necessarily, but there's the boot slot to think about. Also, Rubicanti's always going to have a gimpy cohort. 8 Cha does not a leader make. The Special Power tag from pyro helps a little, but you'll still only have a level 6 cohort at ECL 9 and a level 11 cohort at ECL 16 unless you bump your Cha (expensively). Of course, if all the cohort is is a walking fly and haste dispenser, it doesn't matter much. Big note: the amulet and periapt take up the same body slot. So that ain't happening.
TheMagister 07-26-07, 09:11 PM	The feat specifically says that you can take it in "unarmed strike or grapple". I assume that if you take weapon focus (grapple), it allows a +1 bonus on grapple checks...nothing else is reasonable. But you are saying the feat doesn't give any kind of bonus on grapple checks (only attack rolls), so there is a clear contradiction between what you are saying and what is the only reasonable way to look at weapon focus (grapple). Basically the point is that the character grapples with armor spikes, and I want to get the weapon focus feat applied to that mode of attack. The rules seam to say that I can do that. All I realy need to do is make it weapon focus (grapple) and drop a +1 from the attack modifier. As a secondary issue is the fact that "grapple" isn't a sensible "weapon" for the spiritual weapon spell. However scythe looks like a good choice, for obvious reasons. As a DM, I'd have no problem with a spiritual weapon that looks like a suit of spiked armor. Who cares? They all do the same damage. The spiked armor grabs the target and pierces it with its armor spikes. No grapple or anything, just 1d8+x damage. What's the big deal?
NiQil 07-26-07, 09:17 PM	As a DM, I'd have no problem with a spiritual weapon that looks like a suit of spiked armor. Who cares? They all do the same damage. The spiked armor grabs the target and pierces it with its armor spikes. No grapple or anything, just 1d8+x damage. What's the big deal? Might want to keep reading in the prison. No one said anything about what the spiritual weapon had to look like....what Sauro was questioning was how Weapon Focus is applied. However, in answer to your question, the problem lies in the fact that in order to do what you state, you have to have Weapon Focus (armor spikes), which does not achieve the goal Sauro is striving for, which is to apply the +1 to grapple checks. In order to do that, the feat must be Weapon Focus (grapple), rather than Weapon Focus (armor spikes). Since grapple is not a weapon, however, it is not a valid target for the War Domain bonuses. Armor spikes are valid targets, but do not give the bonuses that Sauro is looking for with the Weapon Focus feat.
hogarth 07-26-07, 10:16 PM	So the question is whether that wall of ice should have spoiled Mr. X's invisibility? (I'm having a hard time following that fight.) If so, then yeah, it should. Even though he didn't intend to, he slapped it down in the same space occupied by Kracknol and Lydia, which meets the criteria for ending invis. If they'd both failed their saves, my opinion is that he'd stay invisible. According to the invisibility spell: For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe. (Exactly who is a foe depends on the invisible character’s perceptions.) Actions directed at unattended objects do not break the spell. So if you don't perceive a foe in the wall's "area or effect", it doesn't count as an attack, right?
Yitzi 07-26-07, 10:17 PM	I seem to remember someone asking recently about the mount spell and combat riding, but I can't seem to find it, and the search function doesn't seem to be working properly. Does someone know where it is and what the answer was?
MindWandererB 07-26-07, 10:46 PM	According to the invisibility spell: So if you don't perceive a foe in the wall's "area or effect", it doesn't count as an attack, right?I don't think so. That comment refers to mindset, not senses.I seem to remember someone asking recently about the mount spell and combat riding, but I can't seem to find it, and the search function doesn't seem to be working properly. Does someone know where it is and what the answer was?Mount creates a light horse or pony, which are not trained for war.
Sjiggie 07-26-07, 10:51 PM	I seem to remember someone asking recently about the mount spell and combat riding, but I can't seem to find it, and the search function doesn't seem to be working properly. Does someone know where it is and what the answer was? Templer10 raised the question but it wasn't answered by anyone on the following pages. My opinion is that is creates a light horse not a light warhorse so it doesn't come trained with the combat riding package and needs to be controlled in battle with a ride check every round.
hogarth 07-26-07, 10:55 PM	I don't think so. That comment refers to mindset, not senses. Well, that's one interpretation. Even so, if you don't think an enemy is in that area, wouldn't your mindset be "I'm not attacking a foe"? Mount creates a light horse or pony, which are not trained for war. In the CoCo they almost always come trained with Combat Riding. Doesn't that fall under "serves willingly and well"? I'm willing to go with the official Elder interpretation (whatever that may be).
MindWandererB 07-26-07, 11:15 PM	Well, that's one interpretation. Even so, if you don't think an enemy is in that area, wouldn't your mindset be "I'm not attacking a foe"? In the CoCo they almost always come trained with Combat Riding. Doesn't that fall under "serves willingly and well"? I'm willing to go with the official Elder interpretation (whatever that may be).I'll let someone else comment on the former. On the latter, no, non-warhorses don't come automatically trained; you have to train them yourself. Even though just about every normal horse in our game is trained that way, it's not "normal."
Salrantol 07-26-07, 11:28 PM	Big note: the amulet and periapt take up the same body slot. So that ain't happening.Ah, but for only 1000 gp + credits more it can.
Yitzi 07-26-07, 11:52 PM	My opinion is that is creates a light horse not a light warhorse so it doesn't come trained with the combat riding package and needs to be controlled in battle with a ride check every round. That could have an effect on the FFA, as Phacce seems to be using a spell-mount.
TheMagister 07-27-07, 04:05 AM	@Eamane - Re: Kykal I'm sorry, but it looks as if you've underpriced your mithral breastplate. You might want to check that. In my opinion, it's just as well -- a mithral chain shirt +1 is just plain better than a mithral breastplate at level 3. More affordable and your skills take less of an ACP hit. Good luck with your new character! {with that -1 Will save, you're going to need it!} TM
Eamane 07-27-07, 04:12 AM	@Eamane - Re: Kykal I'm sorry, but it looks as if you've underpriced your mithral breastplate. You might want to check that. In my opinion, it's just as well -- a mithral chain shirt +1 is just plain better than a mithral breastplate at level 3. More affordable and your skills take less of an ACP hit. Good luck with your new character! {with that -1 Will save, you're going to need it!} TM I did? Dang. Mind, I didn't look it up but worked backwards from another character I had lying around... +1 armor is only 1k, not 2k eh? Thats where I messed up. Oh well, chain works... I just wanted one character that didn't wear a dang chain shirt, aside from the ones that physically couldn't. As far as -1 will goes... thats what readied to disrupt spell/manifestation is for! Also, my first magic item will be a cloak of resistance, yeah >.>
Callix 07-27-07, 06:21 AM	Does anyone know if we support awakened animal PCs? If so, is there some sort of guide to LA? Vague ideas for a second PC abound...
Yitzi 07-27-07, 08:30 AM	That could have an effect on the FFA, as Phacce seems to be using a spell-mount. Bump. His ride skill of 17 means he'll make the check most of the time, but there's a 10% chance he'll fail, and even if he succeeds it takes a move action.
hogarth 07-27-07, 08:32 AM	Bump. His ride skill of 17 means he'll make the check most of the time, but there's a 10% chance he'll fail, and even if he succeeds it takes a move action. It seems like no one disagrees with this interpretation. I'd say go with it.
Macbrea 07-27-07, 08:33 AM	Does anyone know if we support awakened animal PCs? If so, is there some sort of guide to LA? Vague ideas for a second PC abound... Awaken is in the banned spells of CoCo for exactly that same reason. Hmm, there was discussion about banning the spell I cannot find were we did eventually do it. It has to do with the problem that your stats are rolled. We don't do that at any time in CoCo.
Zevox 07-27-07, 12:57 PM	Bump. His ride skill of 17 means he'll make the check most of the time, but there's a 10% chance he'll fail, and even if he succeeds it takes a move action. Actually, since theres no indication that the summoned mount comes with any equipment, it probably doesn't have a saddle, which means -5 ride for riding bareback. Zevox
TelinArtho 07-27-07, 01:03 PM	The mount spell specifies that it comes with a bit and bridle and a riding saddle Zevox. For awaken - I've dug it out of the archives. Had to go back to Tavern IV for this, so I hope y'all appreciate it: I've been looking around for loopholes for a while so that I can play an animal. So far I've only found the celestial/fiendish templates and the awaken spell. I need an elder to weigh in on this; could I play a character (say a monkey or a hawk) that had been awakened. Awaken adds 2 hd, so an awakened hawk would be ECL 3. NPC spellcasting of awaken would cost 1700 gp and 2 credits. The creature gains the ability to speak languages, and has an int score above 2. This seems viable to me. The only problem I see is that the int. and chr. are rolled randomly. This messes with the point buy system a bit. One could just ignore awakens 3d6 int. and use the 36 point buy system normaly. Or the character could be built using a 30 point buy then take the median value of the awaken roll rounded down, or possibly linking the rolls in the past expenditures (next to the NPC spell casting). Using the minimum values from awaken, then the point buy system would also be workable. There was some discussion beforehand by some other posters - but this is the meat and bread of it. I don't see this coming up again in any of the other threads I have saved (yet anyway - I'm still looking - after lunch). Awaken: First of all, you may NOT add a template to a non ECL creature. No no no. There are so many abuses for that because anything templated solely based on CR alone is not going to be a balanced ally except for the few basic mounts perhaps and some other exceptions. If you awaken an animal, it becomes a character. Try handle animal on your dad, then you get the point. So those with normal relationship to their fathers can now see that it is not an animal companion anymore but requires something other than handle animal, and since it has no ECL, there's no way you can keep hold on the awakened animal. We can perhaps agree on something if your heart is set on it but if I smell an abuse, you can be sure that it will be gone quicker than you can say "I repent". And Vath ...Awaken does not work on magical beasts, like familiars are. Book5 reads me right; I'm considering playing a PC that is an animal, not having an ally that is awakened. The whole thing started when there was that debate about the stable of horses for all occasions. I started to wonder exactly how dangerous some of the horse breeds would be. I really wanted to make a phrenic light warhorse with speed of thought and psionic charge, but the phrenic template adds intellegence only to a creature that is already above 2 intelligence, making it unviable as a character. Only celestial/fiendish actually boost a creature to three from 2 (even half celestial dosn't do it). But, as you say, templating the non ECL is banned in COCO, so such a strategy is out. Which leaves me with an awakend warhorse PC. But rolling dice outside of the structured environs of the arena or quest is also banned in COCO. The concept I propose is to make an awakened light warhorse (ECL 5) to see how well an elite creature of that type would fare in the arena. If it's too 'out there' of an idea, then no worries. I understand the importance of balance in the COCO.
MindWandererB 07-27-07, 01:04 PM	Awaken is in the banned spells of CoCo for exactly that same reason. Hmm, there was discussion about banning the spell I cannot find were we did eventually do it. It has to do with the problem that your stats are rolled. We don't do that at any time in CoCo. Well, technically PC stats are "rolled" as well, but we follow the common practice of substituting that with point buy. The reason why there's no way of implementing awakened animals is that there's no LA for them. Folks have even bugged WotC to publish them, but their response was to use the LAs in Savage Species for anthropomorphics instead, which was a sad excuse for an answer (that's one of the most broken templates ever!). If they ever give us those LAs, the same way they gave us undead LAs in Libris Mortis, I'd be more than happy to allow them.
Erithmu 07-27-07, 02:25 PM	@Scribelords: Rough Draft for Denth Campaign (Group 2) sent. @The Gang: I'll be doing Full Audits of your characters sometime this week or next to make sure everything is up to snuff. Please double check stuff so that everything is there.
Zevox 07-27-07, 02:38 PM	Speaking of which, when were those starting again? I know it was in August, but I forgot when. Zevox
TelinArtho 07-27-07, 02:42 PM	August 15th. Speaking of which - I need to send you a PM...
SoulLord 07-27-07, 04:12 PM	Could you please post again the members and the campaigns. Since the group vandelar was assigned to has so little healing I was thinking of using his 12th lvl feat for leadership to get a healer follower. And of course if the 10th lvl guys reach 11th Im thinking of fighting more to get to 13th.
Zevox 07-27-07, 04:21 PM	Could you please post again the members and the campaigns. Since the group vandelar was assigned to has so little healing I was thinking of using his 12th lvl feat for leadership to get a healer follower. And of course if the 10th lvl guys reach 11th Im thinking of fighting more to get to 13th. I seriously doubt you could get to level 13 in two weeks. Though if you could manage the feat, I'd be very, very impressed. Note that the group V will be in already has a character with a Cleric cohort - Sauro's Retikos. Zevox
TelinArtho 07-27-07, 04:22 PM	Group 1: Sdentch (WAR), Auburn (TAO), Ephraim (CEF), Willowmoon with cohort, Nimbus Group 2: Besthirah Lafali (TLT), Jonathon Raven Gravebound (EHTC) with Lillian, Vanderlar the Red (TAO), Retikos with Cus, Gareth (PSI) If Zevox is unable to get enough credits for Nimbus - he'll be instead putting Archedevil Asran in and Gareth will move to the good group. As to healing - it is arguable that the 2nd group has more potential for healing with 2 full cleric cohorts (granted - one is evil and the other is "questionable" - not sure if he converts for cure or inflict). The only healing in the first group is CLW wands and a few SLAs (CSW (Sdentch), CMW and 3/day CLW (Willowmoon)).
Erithmu 07-27-07, 04:22 PM	Group 1: (CL:Telin) Sdentch, Auburn in Twilight, Willowmoon (Cohort:??), Nimbus, Ephraim(Cohort: Marcus) Group 2: (CL:Rith) Besthirah Lafali, Jonathon Raven (Cohort: Lilian), Gareth, Vandelar, Retikos(Cohort: Cus) Telin and I figuring that Nimbus will be ready on time. We might start on the 22nd. @SoulLord: your group has 2 cleric cohorts.
Zevox 07-27-07, 04:36 PM	From the look of things, Nimbus should be ready on time. I have 33 credits now, so I just need 7 more to activate him. If I manage to get a couple of prison credits, I can have that as of next week. From there its a matter of one week of pitlording to get the 5 to enter the campaign. And even if I'm short, I'm pretty sure MWB would let me drop just a few credits into the negatives to join the campaign so long as I have enough to pay for Nimbus (I know Cat used to allow such things in cases like this, particularly for those he knew earned credits pretty quickly). On healing, Nimbus will bring a Wand of CMW to the first party, which should be quite helpful (average 12 hp of healing per charge). And in two levels he'll take a cleric level, which gives him a couple of spells he can convert to basic healing daily (not much, but its something). Zevox
MindWandererB 07-27-07, 05:04 PM	Speaking of which, when were those starting again? I know it was in August, but I forgot when. Zevox And another point I should make clear in the interests of fairness: guildmasters might want to leave a CAP or two reserved starting now. And Zevox, if you'll post that with this week's CAP Reactions, that'd be great. Don't want to blindside anyone with this, since three of the six guildmasters are in on it.
TelinArtho 07-27-07, 05:16 PM	(Which is why I wanted to involve just Zevox... oh well) Good luck to everyone...
MindWandererB 07-27-07, 05:21 PM	(Which is why I wanted to involve just Zevox... oh well) Good luck to everyone... As long as we have overlap between the elder and guildmaster positions, we sometimes need to sacrifice RP elements in favor of fairness. Disclosure would be in order if even one of the guildmasters was involved. Sorry.
templer10 07-27-07, 07:29 PM	in case iam forgetting something- is there a rule or some such that say that if you are grappling someone and someone else is attacking with a ranged attack the guy in the grapple- there is equal chance to hit the other person in the grapple? EDIT - Ok - found the rule - but is say it: "a character who shoots or throws a ranged weapon at a target involved in a grapple must roll randomly to see which grappling combatant the attack strikes." does that count for a ranged touch power/spell? - you neither shoot nor throw that kind of effect.
MindWandererB 07-27-07, 07:40 PM	in case iam forgetting something- is there a rule or some such that say that if you are grappling someone and someone else is attacking with a ranged attack the guy in the grapple- there is equal chance to hit the other person in the grapple? EDIT - Ok - found the rule - but is say it: "a character who shoots or throws a ranged weapon at a target involved in a grapple must roll randomly to see which grappling combatant the attack strikes." does that count for a ranged touch power/spell? - you neither shoot nor throw that kind of effect. You could sort of say you're "shooting," although rays aren't ranged weapons. The intent behind that rule seems clear to me--why would you be able to aim a ray more precisely in this situation? Could be another RAI/RAW argument, though.
Erithmu 07-27-07, 07:43 PM	You could sort of say you're "shooting," although rays aren't ranged weapons. The intent behind that rule seems clear to me--why would you be able to aim a ray more precisely in this situation? Could be another RAI/RAW argument, though.The Pitlord would like to know as he is using RAI at this moment. Getting Crit on by your teammate isn't fun ...
templer10 07-27-07, 07:56 PM	You could sort of say you're "shooting," although rays aren't ranged weapons. The intent behind that rule seems clear to me--why would you be able to aim a ray more precisely in this situation? Could be another RAI/RAW argument, though. i would argue not - IF the rule said - a character who ATTACKS with a ranged weapon at a target involved in a grapple must roll randomly to see which grappling combatant the attack strikes." i would say you are right BUT the rule doest say so - it spesifies - "shoot" and "throw" - 2 distinc attack options from the variety of ranged attack options. and also - a ray is aimed more precisly by defenition - since it needs to hit - touch AC and not the regular AC.
Eluria 07-27-07, 08:12 PM	I am by no means a rules expert, but it seems pretty obvious that it's just as hard to aim a spell at one of two people in a grapple as it is to aim a physical attack, and the penalty/risk of hitting ally should apply. But that's just common sense, and D&D rules don't always follow that.
Zevox 07-27-07, 08:15 PM	I'd definitely say that Rays suffer the same chance to hit either. Thats the whole point of the rule, that any ranged attack is difficult to fire into a grapple. Besides, why wouldn't the word "shoot" apply to a spell/power the same as to any other ranged attack? And in any event, its always been ruled that way thus far, and quite frankly any argument to the contrary would seem to me to be mere semantics. and also - a ray is aimed more precisly by defenition - since it needs to hit - touch AC and not the regular AC. Um, thats not a result of it being aimed more precisely - its a result of armor and the like not impeding it. Touch AC means you just need to touch a foe to affect them with it, not pierce defenses. (For being aimed more precisely you'd be looking at flat-footed AC - the ability to ignore the foe's ability to dodge the attack - and nothing to my knowledge does that.) Zevox
Eluria 07-27-07, 09:58 PM	nm
Abyssal Stalker 07-28-07, 02:13 AM	Group 1: (CL:Telin) Sdentch, Auburn in Twilight, Willowmoon (Cohort:??), Nimbus, Ephraim(Cohort: Marcus) Group 2: (CL:Rith) Besthirah Lafali, Jonathon Raven (Cohort: Lilian), Gareth, Vandelar, Retikos(Cohort: Cus) Telin and I figuring that Nimbus will be ready on time. We might start on the 22nd. @SoulLord: your group has 2 cleric cohorts. @Rith: There might or might not be a slight problem with the party. I'm planning to take Paladin of Tyranny classes with Jonathon and Gareth is a CG character. Now, the class description offers a way around this: a paladin of tyranny will never knowingly associate with good characters unless it serves his needs So basically we could say that the campaign serves Jonathon's needs, right? @Others: Any comments on taking those Paladin of Tyranny levels/better suggestions? I just thought that Jonathon's high charisma and wisdom suit paladin pretty well.
Erithmu 07-28-07, 02:30 AM	@Rith: There might or might not be a slight problem with the party. I'm planning to take Paladin of Tyranny classes with Jonathon and Gareth is a CG character. Now, the class description offers a way around this: So basically we could say that the campaign serves Jonathon's needs, right? @Others: Any comments on taking those Paladin of Tyranny levels/better suggestions? I just thought that Jonathon's high charisma and wisdom suit paladin pretty well.So ... Being all muscles and meatshield isn't a good 'need.' I am going to try to tie in everyone so they are there fore a reason. My group is really really tough to pull together RP wise. The hard ones are actually Bes and John. 2 neutral mages and a meatshield work pretty well in setting up the story. I'm not going to deny you entrance to the campaign, nor am I going to say that you loose all your paladin abilities. You aren't a paladin yet, and hopefully by that time you will be tied enough into the storyline that you won't be 'worried' about your associates' beliefs.
MindWandererB 07-28-07, 02:42 AM	So ... Being all muscles and meatshield isn't a good 'need.' I am going to try to tie in everyone so they are there fore a reason. My group is really really tough to pull together RP wise. The hard ones are actually Bes and John. 2 neutral mages and a meatshield work pretty well in setting up the story. I'm not going to deny you entrance to the campaign, nor am I going to say that you loose all your paladin abilities. You aren't a paladin yet, and hopefully by that time you will be tied enough into the storyline that you won't be 'worried' about your associates' beliefs. I'm sure Besthirah can be tied in. I'll send you some "secret" RP background in the near future that should help.
Callix 07-28-07, 03:06 AM	Do scribed scrolls/encoded power stones use up spells/pp? Does this affect your combats, or count against that fight's "third"? Thanks in advance.
Eamane 07-28-07, 03:22 AM	Do scribed scrolls/encoded power stones use up spells/pp? Does this affect your combats, or count against that fight's "third"? Thanks in advance. No, no, no and no. However, scrolls/powerstones come underneath the 'expendables cap' which limits the amount of GP total you can have of them.
lonewolf 07-28-07, 04:07 AM	What is the correct price for a Mithril Chain Shirt barding for a Large creature? (100x4) + 1000 = 1400 or 1100x4 = 4400 or something entirely different? EDIT: Also for a creature with vulnerability to cold and resistance cold 10, which of these abilities is counted first?
templer10 07-28-07, 07:00 AM	Can touchsight be used to locate an invisible manifested ghost?
lonewolf 07-28-07, 07:15 AM	Can touchsight be used to locate an invisible manifested ghost? I would say no, but only have a noncore source to support this: ... Nonvisual Senses, such as blindsight, are either ineffective, or only partly effective with regard to incorporeal creatures. In almost all cases, nonvisual senses are ineffective in detecting or pinpointing incorporeal creatures; blindsense, blindsight, scent and tremorsense are all useless. If the incorporeal creature chooses to make noise, it can be detected via normal hearing or by blindsense or blindsight based on acute hearing. If a creature possesses some other nonvisual sense, the DM should use best judgement in determining the effectiveness of that sense in detecting an incorporeal creature, using the preceding information as a guide. ...
Callix 07-28-07, 07:46 AM	I've decided to put up a second PC. Rennae Longhollow (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=13219366&postcount=1193) is up and looking for criticism. Please tell me so I can edit rather than going straight to the Prison.
Salrantol 07-28-07, 07:48 AM	What is the correct price for a Mithril Chain Shirt barding for a Large creature? (100x4) + 1000 = 1400 or 1100x4 = 4400 or something entirely different?Since mithral is masterwork, you have to do some contortions. [100 + (1000-150)] x 4 +150 = 3950
Zevox 07-28-07, 08:15 AM	Can touchsight be used to locate an invisible manifested ghost? No - a Ghost has no physical form, so theres nothing there for you to "feel". Being Incorporeal is one of the incredibly few ways to hide from that overpowered power. Zevox
waywreth 07-28-07, 10:10 AM	No - a Ghost has no physical form, so theres nothing there for you to "feel". Being Incorporeal is one of the incredibly few ways to hide from that overpowered power. Zevox I would disagree. The power doesn't specify you can't see incorporeal forms. It says, "you can detect and pinpoint all creatures within 60 feet". Bolding is mine.
Erithmu 07-28-07, 10:32 AM	EDIT: Also for a creature with vulnerability to cold and resistance cold 10, which of these abilities is counted first? Always applied in the most beneficial way to the creature/character that has it. Often this is resist first then vulnerability. If they have something like bonus HP (Protection from Energy) then it is applied last (I think).
Abyssal Stalker 07-28-07, 11:19 AM	So ... Being all muscles and meatshield isn't a good 'need.' I am going to try to tie in everyone so they are there fore a reason. My group is really really tough to pull together RP wise. The hard ones are actually Bes and John. 2 neutral mages and a meatshield work pretty well in setting up the story. I'm not going to deny you entrance to the campaign, nor am I going to say that you loose all your paladin abilities. You aren't a paladin yet, and hopefully by that time you will be tied enough into the storyline that you won't be 'worried' about your associates' beliefs. Well, if you give me a hint of the storyline - I'd be glad to help finding out a good reason.
TelinArtho 07-28-07, 11:34 AM	Don't worry guys - there's going to be a more natural reason for working together very soon.
Erithmu 07-28-07, 11:35 AM	Well, if you give me a hint of the storyline - I'd be glad to help finding out a good reason.I haven't worked out the storyline ... at least in detail. I have a pretty good idea of what I'm going to do, but ... yea the details are fuzzy. Often that is because I need PC input, but more details as we get closer.
MindWandererB 07-28-07, 01:20 PM	Always applied in the most beneficial way to the creature/character that has it. Often this is resist first then vulnerability. If they have something like bonus HP (Protection from Energy) then it is applied last (I think). Prot. Energy specifies that it is applied before Resist Energy.
NiQil 07-28-07, 05:55 PM	Seeking critique and error review on my latest creation, War Monster.
Erithmu 07-28-07, 06:23 PM	Seeking critique and error review on my latest creation, War Monster. Not sure how you are gaining levels, but switch EWP up so that you start w/ the spiked chain. Endurance could bump to 6 if your not taking HW till later, or at the very least switch out Iron will. That would be my only suggestion.
NiQil 07-28-07, 06:31 PM	After the initial levels that are there, it will be straight barbarian until 11 when he goes into Horizon Walker. That gets me barbarian 8, giving me rage 3/day, meaning I will be able to use it every battle I am in. Then the first level of HW will give me fatigue immunity, taking away those negatives from rage. The reason behind holding off on the chain proficiency until 6 is that I want to craft some things (namely mithral full plate) before I will be ready to craft the spiked chains. So the halberd is just there as a substitute until then. Plus, taking endurance now means that I am not getting a "dead" feat later...makes advancement more fun by giving me something to look forward to. As for Iron Will...that has to stay where it is, as this build will already be Will save deficient. Until I get a few Barb levels, it is giving me most of my Will save right now.
TheMagister 07-29-07, 12:44 AM	After the initial levels that are there, it will be straight barbarian until 11 when he goes into Horizon Walker. That gets me barbarian 8, giving me rage 3/day, meaning I will be able to use it every battle I am in. Then the first level of HW will give me fatigue immunity, taking away those negatives from rage. The reason behind holding off on the chain proficiency until 6 is that I want to craft some things (namely mithral full plate) before I will be ready to craft the spiked chains. So the halberd is just there as a substitute until then. Plus, taking endurance now means that I am not getting a "dead" feat later...makes advancement more fun by giving me something to look forward to. As for Iron Will...that has to stay where it is, as this build will already be Will save deficient. Until I get a few Barb levels, it is giving me most of my Will save right now. Sdentch the Angelic has not yet regretted the 10K she spend on her Crystal Mask of Mindarmor (+4 insight to Will saves). Something that'll help later.
Callix 07-29-07, 01:52 AM	Is it just me, or has PSI gone "psilent"? Is that guild still running, or is everyone on campaign/quest, or what?
SauroGrenom 07-29-07, 02:11 AM	Is it just me, or has PSI gone "psilent"? Is that guild still running, or is everyone on campaign/quest, or what? Most everyone is on campaign. But you are right. I've not been doing much RP around there recently. Also in the near future that's going to continue to be harder for me to do (med school starts wednessday). I think I can keep up on the administrative things, but maintaining story and active continuous lines of RP will be harder.
Zevox 07-29-07, 02:12 AM	Is it just me, or has PSI gone "psilent"? Is that guild still running, or is everyone on campaign/quest, or what? Over half of the Guild is on a campaign. See "Mission into the Sands" - 4 it's 7 members are on that, and another (Gareth Irontower) is going to be embarking on another campaign soon. Zevox
Guildmaster (TAO) 07-29-07, 02:58 PM	@ guildlords: question sent via pm
Rauul 07-29-07, 04:44 PM	Anyone wanna Edit my newest Character... he is based off the Slayer Series for Warhammer Fantasy (Slayer Cult.. Always Looking for his Doom(in miniquests)) Gortek ChaoSlayer (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=13229479&postcount=1195) Basically his only expendables will be Tattoos...
Salrantol 07-29-07, 04:59 PM	A couple of houserule questions: 1) Does the maximum caster level of scrolls usable with Use Magic Device derive itself from your base Use Magic Device, or your Use Magic Device for scrolls? (i.e. synergy bonuses from Decipher Script & Spellcraft) 2) In order to polymorph into a psionic creature, do you need both Knowledge (psionics) & the appropriate Knowledge for the creature type? Or do you just need either one of them?
Zevox 07-29-07, 05:28 PM	Not sure about the first. I'd lean towards allowing scrolls at a higher CL due to synergy, but its debateable. On the second, you just need one. Either Know (Psionics) or the appropriate Knowledge for their main type will do. Zevox
Guildmaster (WAR) 07-30-07, 12:27 PM	@ guildlords: question sent via pm
Abyssal Stalker 07-30-07, 01:54 PM	Can you update Gauntlets of Ogre Power to a Belt of Giant Strength? They are basically the same item, but they take up different body slots...
TheMagister 07-30-07, 02:03 PM	No, but you can pay credits (I don't think you should have to, but...) to make 'em gauntlets of ogre power +4.
templer10 07-30-07, 03:53 PM	in the forest map - if you are blinded when in the canopy (i.e. 30 feet high) do ou need to make a blance check or some such in order to not to fall? the map description doesnt actually say so but it's wierd if you dont.
TelinArtho 07-30-07, 04:06 PM	As long as the character doesn't try to move from that spot - they shouldn't have a problem keeping the footing they already have. If they move though - certainly.
The Dread Dormammu 07-30-07, 04:27 PM	Can a character start in any age category? Does this Cost credits?
templer10 07-30-07, 04:29 PM	Can a character start in any age category? Does this Cost credits? yes (any age) and no (doesnt cost credits). p.s - i think you have some chars about to be imprisoned - check it out.
TelinArtho 07-30-07, 04:29 PM	It does not cost credits - there are also many characters who make use of the middle age/old age/venerable categories (mostly gray elves too...)
Sjiggie 07-30-07, 04:45 PM	Speaking of check my latest character he still needs some tweaking and equipment
Callix 07-30-07, 04:53 PM	OK... You've only added aging to your Int and Str, even though it's listed in all abilities. You haven't decided on a discipline. In order to use Astral Construct and Boost Construct, you have to be a Shaper (Metacreativity), but this means Autohypnosis isn't a class skill. Your Hide ranks come from Monk levels you don't have. You don't have any weapons. Or expendables. A few things to clean up if this is serious. And no copying my character (Rennae).
Sjiggie 07-30-07, 05:20 PM	Ok... what part is it of under construction that you don't understand? Yes I need weapons, yes I need other equipment/expandables, yes he is a shaper, the age effect are added into the ability scores 8 points means 15 base -1 age +2/-2 Dex/Con means 16/12 final score, no he doesn't have ranks in hide from monk it is just a copy paste error and no I won't be copying your character. I'll have to change the ranks in autohypnosis accidenlty looked under the kineticist heading.
The Dread Dormammu 07-30-07, 07:13 PM	In the SRD it says that you must use your hands to climb. Does this mean that when climbing you cannot use your hands at all? Or merely that you can't climb and use your hands at the same time?
Erithmu 07-30-07, 07:16 PM	In the SRD it says that you must use your hands to climb. Does this mean that when climbing you cannot use your hands at all? Or merely that you can't climb and use your hands at the same time? If you are moving you need your hands free (ie nothing in your hands.) If you are spellcasting then you are stopped and I think we have ruled that you can take one hand off the wall to perform the somatic portions of spellcasting.
The Dread Dormammu 07-30-07, 07:19 PM	If you are moving you need your hands free (ie nothing in your hands.) If you are spellcasting then you are stopped and I think we have ruled that you can take one hand off the wall to perform the somatic portions of spellcasting. How about using thrown weapons?
Erithmu 07-30-07, 07:21 PM	I'm sure you could. Although you would have to continually draw them.
The Dread Dormammu 07-30-07, 07:27 PM	I'm sure you could. Although you would have to continually draw them. How about for Levitate? Since you have a focus I assume you can only use 1 handed thrown weapons right?
Yitzi 07-30-07, 07:44 PM	I think you can drop or put away the focus after casting.
The Dread Dormammu 07-30-07, 09:01 PM	I need tactical advice. Planning on making a Dwarven Wizard (probably not a specialist ) woman. She will possibly be old but I am unsure how old. What feats/skills should she take? Right now I am considering craft wondrous item, and exotic weapon proficiency (repeating crossbow) are these good choices? I'm a little more interested in trying interesting and new things than making the one "killer build" but at the same time I don't want her to be ineffective. She will spend most of her money on scrolls and expanding her spell book so let me know if you have any neat ideas for spell selection as well.
TelinArtho 07-30-07, 09:16 PM	Note your prerequisites - Exotic WP requires a BAB+1 and craft wondrous item caster level 3 - so you won't be able to start with both at ECL3 without dipping into another class. Other than that - pure wizards will have a relative harder time than specialists in the early levels, though with judicious use of scrolls some of that can be made up. You will probably find there is a good reason why "killer" caster builds are made. Wizards just don't have enough damage output in the introductory levels to be able to take down a melee or ranged type consistently. Killer builds make them much more survivable in the early goings.
Yitzi 07-31-07, 12:08 AM	Some things to consider: -Do you want to use a mount or expeditious retreat (neither is not an option for a dwarf)? If the former, get ranks in ride (especially if you'll be using a spell-mount rather than an ally), and consider mounted combat. If the latter, make sure to have the needed scrolls. -Will you focus on touch attacks or save-or-effect spells? This will determine your ability distribution and which age category you want (touch attacks need more DEX, save-based needs more INT). A third option is a summoner (dwarves are well-suited to that, as their high CON helps with concentration, which is more important for a summoner due to 1 round casting time, plus the use of summons reduces the need for speed); in such case, CON is important, and you'll probably want to get Augment Summoning. And there's always Magic Missile, but you'll want a backup in case someone uses shield. I would not advise spending a feat on weapon proficiency without a really good reason, as a wizard just doesn't have the BAB needed to use weapons well; you would be better served by something that either improves your weaknesses (wild talent+speed of thought can give a boost to speed if you choose not to use a horse, but it might not be worth 2 feats) or makes your strengths stronger (weapon focus (ray) or spell focus might be options.) Craft Wondrous Item is probably a good idea.
SoulLord 07-31-07, 12:27 PM	Keeping track of the campaign members Group 2: (CL:Rith) Retikos(Cohort: Cus)[p] lvl 10 (49250/55000) Jonathon Raven (Cohort: Lilian), lvl 10 (51924/55000) Besthirah Lafali, lvl 11 (56,130/66,000) Gareth, lvl 11 (62085/66000) Vandelar, lvl 12 Target date August 22 meaning you could have 3 fights before August 1st, 8th, 15th Retikos is mising 5,750 xp but he's in prision Jonathon is missing 3,076 So my question is will Retikos and Jonathon level up before the 22nd? if they will I could put vandelar on the 3FC before the campaign starts or if not I'll keep him crafting in preparation for the campaign.
TelinArtho 07-31-07, 12:32 PM	Correction - target date is August 15th.
SoulLord 07-31-07, 01:09 PM	ah ok well that settles it for me I would rather be fresh in the cicle when the campaign starts so back to crafting it is.
SauroGrenom 07-31-07, 03:23 PM	Keeping track of the campaign members Group 2: (CL:Rith) Retikos(Cohort: Cus)[p] lvl 10 (49250/55000) Jonathon Raven (Cohort: Lilian), lvl 10 (51924/55000) Besthirah Lafali, lvl 11 (56,130/66,000) Gareth, lvl 11 (62085/66000) Vandelar, lvl 12 Target date August 22 meaning you could have 3 fights before August 1st, 8th, 15th Retikos is mising 5,750 xp but he's in prision Jonathon is missing 3,076 So my question is will Retikos and Jonathon level up before the 22nd? if they will I could put vandelar on the 3FC before the campaign starts or if not I'll keep him crafting in preparation for the campaign.I've been trying to get Retikos out of prison for two weeks, but Telin is being a stickler about a made up rule of his. So I lost out on two weeks worth of activations on the character. As a result, it's not possible that Retikos will make it to ECL11 in time.
TheMagister 07-31-07, 03:30 PM	With her quest successful, Sdentch is level 11.
TelinArtho 07-31-07, 03:30 PM	@MWB - how did TLT move into Yurynwood without already having contact with the Initiates? Or was this another case of rules changes making things kind of wonky?
MindWandererB 07-31-07, 03:50 PM	@MWB - how did TLT move into Yurynwood without already having contact with the Initiates? Or was this another case of rules changes making things kind of wonky? No, not at all. There's no rule preventing you from moving in to a district without making contact with a local PMG. Never has been. It's just usually not a good idea because in most cases the PMG has a bad attitude towards you. In our case, we got lucky; the Initiates had the same alignment as ourselves (at the time). Once we moved in, their attitude towards us became fixed at indifferent (unresponsive to alignment change).
Erithmu 07-31-07, 03:51 PM	Three introductions finished, 4th one figured out, one more to work from scratch ... Oh this is going to be fun ...
TelinArtho 07-31-07, 04:05 PM	Ah okay then - it is yet another thing I didn't know... Anyway - I hope you two are prepared for the mission... it should be a doozy... (though unofficially, your last encounter isn't a true "EL13" fight. It will be slightly less... though I'm certain you two will still be cursing my name for many many moons...).
lonewolf 07-31-07, 07:09 PM	Would anyone be available to questlord a miniquest for Samuel and Karen to rejoin the PSI and/or a miniquest for The Chameleon to rejoin EHTC this week? A thematical link to Denths arrival would be nice, but isnt absolutely required.
lonewolf 07-31-07, 07:45 PM	Is there an existing ruling if Tomes and Manuals that provide insight boni to Ability scores should stack with each other(up to the +5 maximum) or if you have to get a +5 Tome to recieve the maximum bonus?
SauroGrenom 07-31-07, 08:05 PM	Is there an existing ruling if Tomes and Manuals that provide insight boni to Ability scores should stack with each other(up to the +5 maximum) or if you have to get a +5 Tome to recieve the maximum bonus? There are official WoTC sources that say Inherent bonuses don't stack. You must buy the +5 tome to maximum bonus.
SauroGrenom 07-31-07, 08:09 PM	Here's an interesting question... If you have psionic focus and feats that use it then manifest Schism... Which mind gets to have the psionic focus? Can one mind recover focus while the other does something else? Do the two minds share a focus, or do they have separate foci? Can they both manifest metapsionic powers at the same time using the same metapsionic feat on the same power? Basically these two minds share a pp pool. Do they also share a psionic focus? If they share then how does that work with recovering focus and spending it on various powers?
MindWandererB 07-31-07, 08:43 PM	As you can all see, I've started a thread for the Community of Gladius. It's little more than a placeholder right now; I created it only because it's easier to discuss rules in a thread than by PM. You can all watch that space to see how the rules evolve, and I'm hoping that one or more of our "unassigned" elders (Telin, Sauro, maybe Vath), or any other CoCo veterans interested, will enter into a discussion with me about it.
Salrantol 07-31-07, 09:03 PM	I'll start off by saying I don't like the influence rules. I thought you said (and I agreed heartily) that a side game should not offer real-game benefits, and adding allies, prebuffs, and expendables does just that.
MindWandererB 07-31-07, 09:31 PM	I'll start off by saying I don't like the influence rules. I thought you said (and I agreed heartily) that a side game should not offer real-game benefits, and adding allies, prebuffs, and expendables does just that. These uses of Fame operate only within the Community system! They provide no benefit in random arena battles, guild battles, tournaments, etc.Does that help clarify?
Macbrea 07-31-07, 10:17 PM	Technically.. they do affect a arena battle. If one finds themselves with a failure tag they will have a decreased leadership score. As a result cannot have nearly as powerful an ally in the arena. This should effect Razorfang pretty solidly.
Yitzi 07-31-07, 10:22 PM	Here's an interesting question... If you have psionic focus and feats that use it then manifest Schism... Which mind gets to have the psionic focus? Can one mind recover focus while the other does something else? Do the two minds share a focus, or do they have separate foci? Can they both manifest metapsionic powers at the same time using the same metapsionic feat on the same power? Basically these two minds share a pp pool. Do they also share a psionic focus? If they share then how does that work with recovering focus and spending it on various powers? From the description, it looks like the second mind cannot use the psionic focus. I could see room for a house rule, though, where they share psionic focus (so if either uses it, neither has it, and if either gains it, they both can use it). Does that help clarify? So how does a community-based fight work? Can it occur at the same time as an arena fight? Do you get XP/gold from it? Are expendables spent on it lost? On a side note, I think the community thread might be the first one in the history of the Coliseum started by the Pitlords account (Cat preferred to start with his own account)
Hirumajoe 07-31-07, 10:33 PM	Just to make sure I understand the Community system properly (whose concept looks cool btw): Its like the guild game, but on a "smaller" scale where individuals can do things rather than just the Guildlords? So instead of guild missions (with their own set of rules) you now have "community" missions (with their own set of rules, such as the prebuff rounds, different delays and so forth). These effectively only occur when one is participating in the community system. Also if I understand correctly, nothing can really have a long term affect on the character's effective total fame (at least not longer than 10 weeks). Essentially, it provides an RP mechanism in which to place the arena battles and give it some story and the ability to create short term penalties for others within the community system. Is that a reasonable summary? Currently my only question is are people comfortable giving more benefits to those characters that already win alot compared to those that don't within the community system? (The fact that wins are worth 10 fame while losses are 2 supports that difference. 10 wins is 100 fame verus 60 for 30 losses). Might I suggest that Fame for losses be exactly one third of the fame for wins? Effectively in the ratio of the xp gained, so that Great Renown characters and Failure characters have roughly the same fame at the same level (if only because the failure has been around 3 times as long...). Or perhaps the point is that successful characters should be more famous than the less successful at the same level. Hmm... Anyways, food for thought.
Zevox 07-31-07, 10:37 PM	Here's an interesting question... If you have psionic focus and feats that use it then manifest Schism... Which mind gets to have the psionic focus? Can one mind recover focus while the other does something else? Do the two minds share a focus, or do they have separate foci? Can they both manifest metapsionic powers at the same time using the same metapsionic feat on the same power? Basically these two minds share a pp pool. Do they also share a psionic focus? If they share then how does that work with recovering focus and spending it on various powers? I would have to say they definitely share a single focus (no reason why you would gain a focus by using that power if it doesn't say you do, and that would certainly be abusable). I'd assume either could use it, since both can take purely mental actions, but the second cannot restore it, since it only gets standard actions, not move or full-round ones. They still have just one, of course, so if one uses it in any given round, the other can't unless the primary one restores it. And on an unrelated note, I'd like to see if anyone has any advice for me with Archdevil Asran. He just completed a pure-victory cycle, so he has a good amount of cash to blow - just short of 18k. Now he of course has some basic expendables to pick up that'll probably take a thousand gp or so, so its more accurate to say he has around 16.5k gp to spend, and I need to decide what to do with it. Heres most of the things I'm considering: Upgrade Belt of Giant Strength +2 to +4 (12k gp) - boosts one of his most important stats, makes him do more damage, etc - the general benefits of a high strength score. Upgrade Gloves of Dexterity +2 to +4 (12k gp) - Boosts his AC and ranged attacks, and maxes out his dex to AC, which is quite nice. Add Shocking and/or Frost Enchantments to weapons (6k gp each) - This is something I plan to do with his weapons as much for flavor as anything else. Hell's Cleaver is already flaming, so I'm going to make Cania's Icicle (his bow) frost and Hell's Bleeder (his battleaxe) shocking, giving him a variety of elemental damaging weapons to choose from. Probably not the best choice right now though. +1 Animated Heavy Darkwood Shield (9,257 gp) - Another thing I definitely want to do with him, mostly to get him off using Tattoos of Force Screen for a shield bonus to AC. With no ACP and no need to use his hands carrying it, theres absolutely no drawback to this, though it will mean he gets 1 less point of shield bonus than the tattoos give until he can afford to boost it to +2. For another measly 720 gp though he can make it heartening, which is like a permanent tattoo of ML1 vigor usable as an immediate action. Improve Armor to +3 (5k gp) - Cheap compared to most of my other options, and always beneficial for a warrior. Ring of Protection +2 (8k gp) - Gets rid of any need for shield of faith potions, and always beneficial for a warrior. Add Spell Storing to one Weapon (6k or 10k gp, weapon dependant) - With Senorda to cast spells into it, this could help bring Asran's damage output into the stratosphere (things like magic missiles and shocking grasps added to his melee attacks pack quite a whallop). Ring(s) of Counterspells (4k gp each) - Obviously, with the kind of buffing Senorda does for herself and her master, both of them should get one of these sometime, and they're pretty cheap at this level. Amulet of Mighty Fists +1 (6k gp) - A nice boost of +1 attack and damage to Asran's natural weapons, which will go nicely with Divine Might full attacks when he picks that feat up in two levels. He'd need to sell or start switching in and out with his Amulet of Natural Armor, though. Ioun Stones (varies) - For Asran, I'm looking at both the Pink Rhomboid (+2 con) and the Incandescent Blue Sphere (+2 wis), both of which are 8k gp. The former helps compensate for the low hp his LA leaves him with, and the latter boosts his will save (which sucks right now) and, as time goes on, the saves of his Blackguard spells (mostly that will just matter for Inflict spells, but its something I need to consider). I'm also considering the Dusty Rose Prism (+1 insight to AC) one, just on general principles (its an AC boost of a type he'll not get otherwise without a custom item). Hand of Glory (8k gp) - Lets Asran use See Invisibility (a fairly big weakness of his) and Daylight (good vs those pesky Shadowdancers and casters that use Blacklight), plus gives him a third ring slot, which is kinda cool. Trouble is that it has competition for his necklace slot, between his present Amulet of Natural Armor and the tempting Amulet of Mighty Fists, and I'm not sure its the best choice. Improve Cloak of Charisma +3 to +4 (7k gp) - No immediate benefit, but its something I absolutely want to do with him before he reaches level 12, since at that point he'll put another ability boost into charisma and gain Dark Blessing to add his charisma to his saves. Probably not worth doing just now, though, since he'll only reach level 12 on his next cycle if he wins every fight (and then he'll reach it only after fight 3, so he can just pick this up then). Wands - Theres a number of wands he could pick up to help himself and/or Senorda out. - Resist Energy [CL 7]: Ranger-crafted this is only 5,250 gp, which is quite a bargain for Resist 20 to any element on demand that both Asran and Senorda can use. - Shield [CL 2]: As everyone knows, a bargain at only 1,500 gp. Not as much of a must-have for Senorda as for most CoCo wizards, but it would free up three of her memorized spell slots. Would make her more vulnerable to dispels, though. - Barkskin [CL 3]: 4,500 gp for +2 natural AC that stacks with nigh any other source of it ain't bad, especially if Asran also gets an Amulet of Mighty Fists to replace his Amulet of Natural Armor. Also works with Senorda's polymorphing tricks, which is wonderful. - See Invisibility [CL 3]: Invisibility is still a weakness with Asran, especially with Senorda using scrolls to cast see invis at present (dispel problem there). Having a wand of this is a fairly cheap way of alleviating that, since I can guarantee Senorda will always have it handy, even if its dispelled. Yeah, thats a lot of stuff to choose from (hence why I'm looking for opinions, heh). And yes, I didn't misspeak when I said it was "most" of it - the rest of it is stuff for Senorda and Arynat, but for now thats kinda secondary in my concerns, so I left them out. So, anyone with any suggestions/ideas to contribute? Zevox
TheMagister 07-31-07, 10:47 PM	Sdentch spent 10667 on the crystal mask of mindarmor for a +4 insight bonus to Will saves. I haven't regretted it yet. I've been happy about it about three times, and she's only been in three fights.
hogarth 07-31-07, 10:48 PM	Currently my only question is are people comfortable giving more benefits to those characters that already win alot compared to those that don't within the community system? (The fact that wins are worth 10 fame while losses are 2 supports that difference. 10 wins is 100 fame verus 60 for 30 losses). What benefits? The right to call yourself "Baron Prince Archbishop Valen Sky, PhD"? Or the right to say that you own a luxury apartment? I have two thoughts about it: If people like it, it seems harmless (since it doesn't affect arena fights). So why not? It seems like a bunch of paperwork for something that doesn't seem very exciting to me, but I'm sure other people will enjoy (or at least enjoy arguing about). I'd rather have administrative time going towards a dozen other reforms that have been shouted down because "they'll add too much work".
Hirumajoe 07-31-07, 10:53 PM	Actually, I was refering to the fight benefits you gain in "Community Fights". Such as spending 200 points of the Reputation (from the roughly 536 Fame that Valen would have) so that anyone who fights him in a community fight can only use a CA of 0. Effectively eliminating all non-class allies in any community fight. Assuming I understand that section right. If thats not a benefit, I don't know what is. Edit: Just to make this more concrete some numbers if what was written were the final product, for Valen Sky . Fame: ECL 10 * 30 = +300 16 Wins * 10 = +160 13 losses * 2 = +26 1 Guild Miniquest * 10 = +10 1 Guild Quest * 40 = +40 ----------------------- Total Fame: 536 ------------------------ Finance: 136 (A shack in the woods) ECL 10 Monstrous Guard (100) Servant (27) 9 left over ------------------------- Influence: 200 (Master Valen Sky) Gain a Surprise Round when Attacked (100) Gain a Surprise Round when Attacking (100) -------------------------- Reputation: 200 + 20 (from Agent) Honorable: Opponent can use CA of up to what I use (200) Heroic: Opponent's delay kicks in 1 round earlier when attacking (20) -------------------------- That would provide some solid benefits to any fights Valen would take part in, inside the community game.
Erithmu 07-31-07, 11:09 PM	@Zevox: I would double check your assumption on the animated enchantment and ACP. That being said: I would look at picking up at least one of the Ring of counterspells. Then I would pick up the Amulet of fists and move the other amulet to Aryant or Senorda, or add the spell storing. I don't think of your options the dex and the str boosts are the best at this time. Nor do I think you AC is all that shabby. Of Asran's recent fights it has been about misdirection rather than needing the High AC. With the added offense you can get in there and kill quicker.
Zevox 07-31-07, 11:17 PM	Sdentch spent 10667 on the crystal mask of mindarmor for a +4 insight bonus to Will saves. I haven't regretted it yet. I've been happy about it about three times, and she's only been in three fights. Hm, interesting option. I'm not sure its one for right now, though - even with such his will save will still be low. Next level though, once he has his charisma added to it, it would be a good thing to pick up (would boost his will save from +9 to +13, or +10 to +14 if he picks up the wisdom Ioun Stone). I would double check your assumption on the animated enchantment and ACP. Assumption? Um, a Heavy Darkwood Shield has ACP -0. No assumption about it. That being said: I would look at picking up at least one of the Ring of counterspells. Then I would pick up the Amulet of fists and move the other amulet to Aryant or Senorda, or add the spell storing. I don't think of your options the dex and the str boosts are the best at this time. Nor do I think you AC is all that shabby. Of Asran's recent fights it has been about misdirection rather than needing the High AC. With the added offense you can get in there and kill quicker. Good point, though I do think his AC could use a boost, personally. Still, he can go on using expendables for that for a while longer I suppose. Zevox
Erithmu 07-31-07, 11:26 PM	My bad ... was looking at the Towershield ...
SauroGrenom 08-01-07, 12:28 AM	First thoughts. Good first savoy at the idea. But it strikes me as excessively complicated. Especially the issue of penalties that require the character to modify fame distribution. Let me summarize how I'd play this game, and I'll point out where the hard parts crop up. Say we have character Joe with bunches of fame. He's been around a while and was in a tournament and a campaign or two. So he's ECL10 with a Fame score of 600. Let's make this simple and split the fame into 200 points in each area. So with 200 pts I get an elite bodyguard and a monstrous guard. Then I buy a surprise round for all my battles, costs an extra 200 influence. Then I buy decreased delay penalties for my opponents (down to 5 rounds for both attack and defend), because sneaking guys totally annoy me. Ok. So that's all great. I just had some fun with a bit of decision making and strategery. Now I decide on an action, and all these cool bonuses like the limited delay penalties and surprise rounds apply to the arena battle that is used to resolve success of that action. It's not stated in the rules listed, but I assume that these bonuses only apply during these special community actions, and not during quests and arena battles and such. Let's assume that I decide to attack someone, and I'll duel them. Now things start getting really complicated when someone hits me and applies a penalty to my property in the same week. Say that a third player targets me with a duel, and they defeat my bodyguard. There ends up being a positive feedback cycle where my defeated bodyguard means I take a penalty and redistribute fame away from property, and my body guard is weaker, and then easier to attack, and weaker again... And so on. So a defeated character becomes an easier target, and promotes picking on the weak. Also there's the issue of how difficult it becomes to track my fame since it changes every week as the penalty decreases or increases. With stacking penalties and bonuses, it gets to be a complicated series of decaying functions all going on at the same time. I'm doing a really course example where I'm trying to grasp the system and think through what happens. It just seams that with the penalties thing that requires me to change my fame point allocation, and the decaying penalties, and the fact that penalties can all stack, it produces a complex sea of changing numbers. Too complicated and structured for my taste. The fact that it changes all the time makes me unable to get familiar with a particular configuration of fame points, and develop a strategy. The strategy is always being effected by my rivals and what they are doing to me and how long ago it happened. If you want to use a penalty mechanic of some kind, then it should be non-stackable and permanent till removed by some action. Perhaps some kind of "volley". You earn points with a continued *** for tat competition where actions are traded back and forth. The longer the rivalry the more actions are involved, the more fame is built into it, and rewards and penalties build as a result of rivalry between equally matched characters.
Rauul 08-01-07, 12:34 AM	Technically.. they do affect a arena battle. If one finds themselves with a failure tag they will have a decreased leadership score. As a result cannot have nearly as powerful an ally in the arena. This should effect Razorfang pretty solidly. Failure tag is -2 to leadership score same as a wizard having a Familiar.. But I Like the Community (can picture Shadow being Called "The Shadow of (district name)" and having his little NE followers who are actually a thieves guild.. to spend his points on Assassinations, and other things :)
MindWandererB 08-01-07, 12:56 AM	Just to make sure I understand the Community system properly (whose concept looks cool btw): Its like the guild game, but on a "smaller" scale where individuals can do things rather than just the Guildlords? So instead of guild missions (with their own set of rules) you now have "community" missions (with their own set of rules, such as the prebuff rounds, different delays and so forth). These effectively only occur when one is participating in the community system. Also if I understand correctly, nothing can really have a long term affect on the character's effective total fame (at least not longer than 10 weeks). Essentially, it provides an RP mechanism in which to place the arena battles and give it some story and the ability to create short term penalties for others within the community system. Is that a reasonable summary? Currently my only question is are people comfortable giving more benefits to those characters that already win alot compared to those that don't within the community system? (The fact that wins are worth 10 fame while losses are 2 supports that difference. 10 wins is 100 fame verus 60 for 30 losses). Might I suggest that Fame for losses be exactly one third of the fame for wins? Effectively in the ratio of the xp gained, so that Great Renown characters and Failure characters have roughly the same fame at the same level (if only because the failure has been around 3 times as long...). Or perhaps the point is that successful characters should be more famous than the less successful at the same level. Hmm... Anyways, food for thought.You hit the idea pretty much on the head. There are going to be other elements to it: I want each district (and the number of districts might be decreased--18-21 might be a bit much, but we'll have to run some scenarios) to really feel like a community: they will work together to create district effects/improvements, fight off threats from other districts and from outside sources, and so on. My ideal is for the RP aspect to take on a life of its own; I see my job as being the one to set up the mechanics just to get it started. To facilitate that, each district will have a unique flavor. For instance, Duken Marina may be a rough-and-tumble wharf district, Central Gladius a red-light district, industrial, commercial, high-class residences, etc. Someone who's been around longer than I may have a better idea of what each district was supposed to be like; if not, we'll fake it. As for the win/loss thing: the difference is deliberate. A character who wins more often should be more famous than one who loses. Similarly, a character created at ECL 10 will be less famous than one who worked their way there. Draws are inflated because they're so rare (and being in unusual situations is what creates fame, realistically). I wanted to reward other unique achievements: being undefeated for long periods, or defeating a legendary character, but I couldn't come up with mechanics for that sort of thing. Differences in fame will also be sort of self-correcting. The few competitive components that are in there hardly pay off at all if you go up against someone with lower fame and/or PR than you, so "rivalries" should be naturalistically generated across PCs with similar values in those areas. Characters with more fame may have more options in unusual areas--for instance, a highly famous character may have the ability to interact with the guilds directly (via private armies, for instance), but I think that's a good objective to work towards.
Malither76 08-01-07, 12:58 AM	do you earn political career on MiniQuest
Rauul 08-01-07, 01:05 AM	do you earn political career on MiniQuest think so since it's an Autoskill package.. (if not i need to adjust the winnings of shadow for the 2 he has completed)
Yitzi 08-01-07, 01:08 AM	So how does a community-based fight work? Can it occur at the same time as an arena fight? Do you get XP/gold from it? Are expendables spent on it lost? Bump.
MindWandererB 08-01-07, 01:26 AM	@Sauro: Good point. (BTW, the Community thread says "Please do not post here!" for a reason!) I wanted there to be some sort of consequence involved in rivalries, and that was the best I could come up with. As I said above, I wanted the "difficulty" level to be self-correcting, so that there's no point in ganging up on someone weaker than you. Having penalties count against your fame for this purpose would help. I have a poor conception of the "rivalry" mechanism you're proposing. As for the constant flux of Fame, I don't think it's so bad: I imagine most players will have at least one area where they can dump as little or as much into it as they have "spare" points. But if you can come up with another risk/reward system, I'm all ears.
MindWandererB 08-01-07, 01:28 AM	So how does a community-based fight work? Can it occur at the same time as an arena fight? Do you get XP/gold from it? Are expendables spent on it lost? On a side note, I think the community thread might be the first one in the history of the Coliseum started by the Pitlords account (Cat preferred to start with his own account) It would be a normal fight in most respects. Rewards are earned, items are spent, no double-booking. BTW, the Council was also started with the Pitlords account, as was Tavern IX. (Forgot to do it that way with Tavern X.)
lonewolf 08-01-07, 04:56 AM	Would anyone be available to questlord a miniquest for Samuel and Karen to rejoin the PSI and/or a miniquest for The Chameleon to rejoin EHTC this week? A thematical link to Denths arrival would be nice, but isnt absolutely required. hmm I guess for this weeks pairings I was a little late, but is there anyone who would questlord those miniquests next week?
hogarth 08-01-07, 06:40 AM	That would provide some solid benefits to any fights Valen would take part in, inside the community game. ...benefits which can be completely negated by not taking part in community game fights. But I guess I see your point: why do the tough need to be made tougher?
hogarth 08-01-07, 06:46 AM	do you earn political career on MiniQuest No -- skill packages (automatic or not) do not apply to Miniquests.
lonewolf 08-01-07, 07:14 AM	Is it possible to do multiplayer Miniquests? Im asking because I want Karen and Samuel rejoin PSI, and if they could do it together, there would be less pitlords required, seeing that there may be a shortage of them again this week.
Yitzi 08-01-07, 08:30 AM	It would be a normal fight in most respects. Rewards are earned, items are spent, no double-booking. In that case there is a benefit to the arena from participating in the community game, as someone with a good community situation can use it to get more advantageous fights, gaining more rewards with less expenditures than in the arena.
Callix 08-01-07, 08:45 AM	In that case there is a benefit to the arena from participating in the community game, as someone with a good community situation can use it to get more advantageous fights, gaining more rewards with less expenditures than in the arena. But only against those engaged in the community game. Those bonuses do not apply against opponents who are assigned by the pairings, only against Attack actions in the Community. Furthermore, they cannot guarantee that they will get any non-community benefits if they aren't attacked and their enemies don't oppose them. So they take a risk to gain a reward. So what else is new?
Hirumajoe 08-01-07, 09:28 AM	Regarding the Community Game: What happens when an ECL 3 decides to duel an ECL 10? Do the usual guild balancing mechanisms kick in (such as adding a random monster ally and so forth)? If so, as an ECL 3 I really see no downside to doing this. That or grabbing a guard and a body guard for the community system is effectively mandatory for the higher ECLs so as they don't have to waste their character's activation on a ECL 3 fight. But if the high fame character leaves it to a downgraded ECL 3 NPC, then there is presumably a 50/50 success chance. Assuming 90 fame for the ECL and 540 for the ECL 10, and equal PR, the ECL 3 is risking 3-4 fame to gain 120 while the ECL 10 is risking 120 to gain at most 3-4. This seems a bit out of balance. Also, in regards to the fading bonuses and penalties, it might be easier to just keep it at full strength for 6 weeks (two 3FCs say) and then make it disappear after that. It makes it much easier for people to look a few weeks ahead rather than doing a bunch of calculations each time they want to know where they stand next week. Would also make Communitylord's job overall somewhat easier. And requires fewer updates of each character's personal community section on their sheet. You put it on with an expiration date, and then just take it off after that date.
TelinArtho 08-01-07, 10:05 AM	Is it possible to do multiplayer Miniquests? Im asking because I want Karen and Samuel rejoin PSI, and if they could do it together, there would be less pitlords required, seeing that there may be a shortage of them again this week. Yes it is possible. I'm sorry I can't run it for you - I've got too much on my plate for the next few weeks already.
Erithmu 08-01-07, 10:21 AM	@lonewolf: I can take it ... any chance you want to pick up Torel's MQ for a HA ally?
lonewolf 08-01-07, 10:32 AM	@lonewolf: I can take it ... any chance you want to pick up Torel's MQ for a HA ally? Thank you! Yeah I can do it. What kind of animal are you looking for?
Erithmu 08-01-07, 10:41 AM	Thank you! Yeah I can do it. What kind of animal are you looking for? D. Wolf
Yitzi 08-01-07, 11:02 AM	Also, in regards to the fading bonuses and penalties, it might be easier to just keep it at full strength for 6 weeks (two 3FCs say) and then make it disappear after that. It makes it much easier for people to look a few weeks ahead rather than doing a bunch of calculations each time they want to know where they stand next week. Would also make Communitylord's job overall somewhat easier. And requires fewer updates of each character's personal community section on their sheet. You put it on with an expiration date, and then just take it off after that date. Or the other option is just say that bonuses and penalties decrease by a certain percentage of the current amount each week (this would mean, however, that they never actually hit 0 (unless it's a certain percentage rounded up)). But 10% of the original amount makes things too complicated.
Hirumajoe 08-01-07, 12:15 PM	Or the other option is just say that bonuses and penalties decrease by a certain percentage of the current amount each week (this would mean, however, that they never actually hit 0 (unless it's a certain percentage rounded up)). But 10% of the original amount makes things too complicated. Well, that still requires a change each and every week, where as the other results in only two actions (which is simple addition or subtraction). Remember, somebody is going to have to go through and do the calculations for each and every penalty/bonus on each and every character each week. Reducing the associated computations per action per character to 2 additions or subtractions seems the simplest. For example, assume 10 characters participating in the community system each week. Assume each takes an action each week which results in a bonus for themselves and penalty for someone else. After 10 weeks, who ever is in charge has to keep track of 2000 (!!) fading bonuses and penalties, 200 per character. Reducing it to two computations, adding and removing (with the expiration date written next to it) with a lifetime of 6 weeks reduces it to only 40 real changes per week after the 6 week saturation has been hit. Lumping the penalties together and taking 10% off each week also reduces to about 40 real changes a week (apply fade and then add in the current week's changes). However, in the case where saturation isn't reached (i.e. where characters only take actions every other week), this remains at a constant 40, while the simple on or off system drops to 20 calculations. You get about the same net penalty over time if you drop 10% each week for 10 weeks or if you take the full penalty for 6 weeks (5.5 would exactly the same, but oh well). I'm not really sure what the slow fade was supposed to simulate in any case. Howeer, I do urge simplicity where ever possible in this system both to make it runnable and also reduce the intimidation factor for new players.
MindWandererB 08-01-07, 04:08 PM	Regarding the Community Game: What happens when an ECL 3 decides to duel an ECL 10? Do the usual guild balancing mechanisms kick in (such as adding a random monster ally and so forth)? If so, as an ECL 3 I really see no downside to doing this. That or grabbing a guard and a body guard for the community system is effectively mandatory for the higher ECLs so as they don't have to waste their character's activation on a ECL 3 fight. But if the high fame character leaves it to a downgraded ECL 3 NPC, then there is presumably a 50/50 success chance. Assuming 90 fame for the ECL and 540 for the ECL 10, and equal PR, the ECL 3 is risking 3-4 fame to gain 120 while the ECL 10 is risking 120 to gain at most 3-4. This seems a bit out of balance. Also, in regards to the fading bonuses and penalties, it might be easier to just keep it at full strength for 6 weeks (two 3FCs say) and then make it disappear after that. It makes it much easier for people to look a few weeks ahead rather than doing a bunch of calculations each time they want to know where they stand next week. Would also make Communitylord's job overall somewhat easier. And requires fewer updates of each character's personal community section on their sheet. You put it on with an expiration date, and then just take it off after that date. My intent was to have ECL play no part in this (although I had not considered the effect that might have on XP/GP). A 6-week expiration might be easier, yes. I had the slow decay to reduce the severity of "spikes," but that may not be necessary.
Yitzi 08-01-07, 04:28 PM	My intent was to have ECL play no part in this (although I had not considered the effect that might have on XP/GP). Actually, if the ECL is too far off, the person can simply refuse to fight, since when you steal from someone with PR less than half yours, the penalty/bonus is negative.
TelinArtho 08-01-07, 04:40 PM	Let me interrupt the current conversation for a little bit and just say something. I can't tell anyone how happy I am to see that Denth has such an effect on the entire community. Nearly everybody that has posted an in game reaction has reacted very much in their characters' views and it has been great to read. In addition to that - all of the new(er) members who are looking for tie-ins to Denth in their miniquests and quests - it just makes me feel like I have contributed a solid idea to the CoCo. I can't think of a single thing that has happened here that has made me feel this good. Anyway - I just wanted to let all of you know that. I hope you enjoy the next few weeks of chaos and turmoil until the campaigns start up. After that - I hope I can do as well to keep the campaign in everyone's top interest. Thanks again. /dave
MindWandererB 08-01-07, 04:48 PM	Actually, if the ECL is too far off, the person can simply refuse to fight, since when you steal from someone with PR less than half yours, the penalty/bonus is negative. Okay, so the formula needs adjustment. I see what you mean: the way it is, if you're too much of an underdog, you gain either a bonus or a "negative penalty," win or lose.
Yitzi 08-01-07, 04:57 PM	Okay, so the formula needs adjustment. I see what you mean: the way it is, if you're too much of an underdog, you gain either a bonus or a "negative penalty," win or lose. No, it's a good thing. The penalty becomes negative only if there's the PR equivalent of 2 levels difference-and we don't want someone attacking someone 2 levels below them.
MindWandererB 08-01-07, 05:45 PM	No, it's a good thing. The penalty becomes negative only if there's the PR equivalent of 2 levels difference-and we don't want someone attacking someone 2 levels below them. Yeah, but if you attack someone 2 levels above you, you come out ahead win or lose.
TelinArtho 08-01-07, 05:50 PM	I am trying to wrap my head around the topic of the Community. I even had the head-start that MWB gave the elders by sending the bulk of that in various PMs. That said, I'm still mostly lost. I did try to calculate the fame for a couple of my characters and found the information on the character sheets are often not quite as well represented in the roster. For instance, Kraegin: Kraegin (ECL10, 10 wins, 16 losses), PR (1006) 11381, 3 Quests Kraegin has had 11 wins outside of the IMT and one more in the IMT. The one that is not listed in the roster is a frozen fight. Do frozen fights count in the fame ranking? ECL * 30 = 300 Wins * 10 = 110 +20 (1 IMT win - 1 frozen win as well) Losses * 2 = 32 + 4 (1 IMT loss) Roleplay quests * 60 = 180 (3 successful roleplay quests) Newspaper - bottom 5 20 I linked the article here. According to the fame calculator (as I will call it...) - the article must "feature" the character. Well - I'm not sure if being mentioned in the bottom 5 power rankings counts... 646 (666 if newspaper article counts) Second example: Sir Valkin (ECL10, 15 wins, 9 losses), PR (1167) 13203, 4 Quests, 1 Campaign Here the Win/Loss total is correct, but the quests information is fairly wrong - again because of frozen ones. Sir Valkin actually had 1 roleplay quest, 4 guild quests (2 of which failed and 2 of which were frozen), and 3 miniquests (all of which were successful, 1 was frozen and 1 was a guild-entry miniquest (so not sure if that counts as a roleplay miniquest or an "other" miniquest). Lastly, I notice that Sir Valkin actually qualifies for a "Special Power" tag since he has 9 levels in Paladin. ECL * 30 = 300 Wins * 10 = 150 Losses * 2 = 18 Roleplay quests * 60 = 60 Guild quests * 40 = 80 (2 guild quests failed) Guild Miniquests * 10 = 30 (one of these was a guild entry miniquest) Campaigns * 200 = 0 (one campaign - but never got going) Special Power * 30 = 30 (missing from character roster - more than 5 levels of paladin) 668 total So for my 2 level 10 characters I find that they pretty much have the same fame totals. As to what they can do with the fame, I'm really at a loss as that seems to be fairly up in the air. Do you allocate say 200 points to Finance and automatically get the building of that level? Or do you allocate 200 points to Finance, and spend 40 of that on the house and the rest you spend on the other things you can spend Finance on? I still need to give everything some more review. Preparing for the campaign and Denth has left me fairly busy - but I will try to provide more comment when I can.
lonewolf 08-01-07, 05:57 PM	According to the fame calculator (as I will call it...) - the article must "feature" the character. Well - I'm not sure if being mentioned in the bottom 5 power rankings counts... :heehee
TelinArtho 08-01-07, 06:03 PM	Well - its a funny thing. I would think if Rebreg were still around he'd get a lot of fame for the articles about him - and it was all because he was one of the losing-est characters of the day...
lonewolf 08-01-07, 06:05 PM	yeah looking through the newspaper, I see my characters mentioned 3 times total, and 2 of those time just because they spectaculary lost a fight... :rolleyes:
MindWandererB 08-01-07, 06:07 PM	Well - its a funny thing. I would think if Rebreg were still around he'd get a lot of fame for the articles about him - and it was all because he was one of the losing-est characters of the day... Which is exactly what I wanted to capture. Sometimes losers (like Rebreg or Izumi) are just fan-favorites. I expect that a lot of auditing to correct quest counts will be called for. I'm okay with that. The "flavor" elements are based on totals, and don't have to be allocated. So yes, if you "buy" an ECL 20 elite bodyguard and nothing else, you have a cabin-sized property.
TheMagister 08-01-07, 06:11 PM	Can Sdentch the Angelic have Sdentch the Mortal's past history? And more fame for her resurrection? {grin} Just playin'. Still, people would talk, don't you think? ;)
MindWandererB 08-01-07, 07:02 PM	Can Sdentch the Angelic have Sdentch the Mortal's past history? And more fame for her resurrection? {grin} Just playin'. Still, people would talk, don't you think? ;) Actually, I'd be okay with same-ECL rebuilds keeping their old fame. This is supposed to facilitate roleplay, after all.
Yitzi 08-01-07, 07:24 PM	Yeah, but if you attack someone 2 levels above you, you come out ahead win or lose. Actually, it never states that if the attacker loses, the defender gets to steal from the attacker. But once you add that, the situation can be remedied easily-just say that the -.5 applies only when the attacker won; when the defender wins, it's just the PR ratio times the fame ratio times 20 (or maybe even (PR ratio+.5) times fame ratio times 20). There's another problem, though, and that is that it doesn't scale well; an ECL 7 vs. ECL 7 has the same bonus/penalty as ECL 3 vs. ECL 3, despite each one having a lot more fame. Perhaps the amount stolen should also be multiplied by (ECL-2), with possibly a different number instead of that 20.
Hirumajoe 08-01-07, 09:15 PM	Dumb question, can you use NPC spell casting services in the middle of a 3FC? I know you can't buy equipment, but can you effectively buy services?
TelinArtho 08-01-07, 10:31 PM	No - you may not purchase anything during the 3FC. The only exception are approved items in the training hall to a) fix an error in the prison (eg purchase a spell component pouch/holy symbol) or b) to fix for a change in the rules (eg - lighting changes)
hogarth 08-01-07, 11:28 PM	No - you may not purchase anything during the 3FC. The only exception are approved items in the training hall to a) fix an error in the prison (eg purchase a spell component pouch/holy symbol) or b) to fix for a change in the rules (eg - lighting changes) Well, there's also the Discount free activity (but you don't get the item until the end of the cycle).
Vathelokai 08-01-07, 11:44 PM	Auburn in Twilight I have one more week to get Auburn ready for campaign. I've pared down the spell book a bit and now I'm not sure what to do with the extra cash. I've got about 7000, though I could remove some more spells and get extra cash. Options cape of montebank - handy and always useful wand of web - classic, but limited by terrain glove of storing - fun stuff in general, and can carry that quiver of colossal telekenetic arrows with it. necklace of adaptation - can cast stinking cloud or cloudkill on my own space; also fits thematically. max out expendables and get a lv 1 wand or two. Problem: I already have a necklace con+2 and gloves dex+2. Suggestions?
Guildmaster (TAO) 08-01-07, 11:53 PM	@Guildlords: Somehow TAOs info didn't get posted. I sent in the guild actions and they are still in my sent box. I've forwarded the info. Acording to my PM box, it was sent 2 days ago.
Zevox 08-02-07, 12:06 AM	@Guildlords: Somehow TAOs info didn't get posted. I sent in the guild actions and they are still in my sent box. I've forwarded the info. Acording to my PM box, it was sent 2 days ago. Huh - thats odd, because I never received them. Still, I trust you, so I'll put them up. Zevox
Rauul 08-02-07, 12:48 AM	whats the gold cost of getting Darkvision made permanent.. ?
SauroGrenom 08-02-07, 12:50 AM	Auburn in Twilight I have one more week to get Auburn ready for campaign. I've pared down the spell book a bit and now I'm not sure what to do with the extra cash. I've got about 7000, though I could remove some more spells and get extra cash. Options cape of montebank - handy and always useful wand of web - classic, but limited by terrain glove of storing - fun stuff in general, and can carry that quiver of colossal telekenetic arrows with it. necklace of adaptation - can cast stinking cloud or cloudkill on my own space; also fits thematically. max out expendables and get a lv 1 wand or two. Problem: I already have a necklace con+2 and gloves dex+2. Suggestions?You can get Con bonuses on a belt or shirt as a 5 credit item with the same gp cost. Not imbalanced, and almost a must for many low Con characters that also need the amulet slot for other things. Dex bonuses almost are required to go in the gloves if you want the normal price for the bonus, well you could put it in boots. But boots have other bonuses you want (flight or speed). If you are going on campaign, the expendables are a good call. Who knows what you end up needing... And a maxed expendables list gives you utility spells in scroll form, so your spell slots are saved for blast'em spells with the highest saves, damage and CL (for beating SR).
SauroGrenom 08-02-07, 12:56 AM	whats the gold cost of getting Darkvision made permanent.. ?You multiply the XP cost by 5. Then add up the spell casting service for a permanency and a darkvision spell. The permanency costs you 5,000gp to cover the xp cost alone. Then figure in the cost of CL10 spell casting service on a 5th level spell (500gp) and a 2nd level spell (200gp). Total is 5,700gp. Plus any credit cost. Cross you fingers and hope you don't get hit with a dispel... Cuz that thing is gone once it gets dispelled. I'd suggest a custom item that casts Touchsight 2/day. That's 10,800 and it gives you touchsight! And it cannot be dispelled (permanently at least). A head slot would be best for it. But it's a 15 credit custom item.
Rauul 08-02-07, 01:08 AM	You multiply the XP cost by 5. Then add up the spell casting service for a permanency and a darkvision spell. The permanency costs you 5,000gp to cover the xp cost alone. Then figure in the cost of CL10 spell casting service on a 5th level spell (500gp) and a 2nd level spell (200gp). Total is 5,700gp. Plus any credit cost. Cross you fingers and hope you don't get hit with a dispel... Cuz that thing is gone once it gets dispelled. I'd suggest a custom item that casts Touchsight 2/day. That's 10,800 and it gives you touchsight! And it cannot be dispelled (permanently at least). A head slot would be best for it. But it's a 15 credit custom item. would rather forfeit fights in the dark than use that broken power... (sorry to me touchsight is the most broken power coco uses.. no way around it unless your a Psionic..) have a week to figure out how to get Darkvision/Elfsight for Shadow so he don't get to screwed over with Light effects.. Corrupter is easy.. he don't hide .. Shadow is the problem.. shrug will figure it out..
Vathelokai 08-02-07, 01:12 AM	have a week to figure out how to get Darkvision/Elfsight for Shadow ... shrug will figure it out.. Depends on if you want to spend credits or not. There's plenty of options with credits (1/day items and such). Without, you're looking at expendables and super expensive items.
MindWandererB 08-02-07, 01:33 AM	There are lots of items that produce light, but they do so for your opponent, as well. You could get a belt of dwarvenkind for 14,900 gp, or the slightly cheaper but less useful goggles of night for 12,000.
Rauul 08-02-07, 01:40 AM	Ok reading the rules for NPC spellcasting services... Extended Darkvision (level 3 spell with feat) Cast at CL 5, would last 10 hours.. and cost 150 gp.. Tattoo of Elfsight (ML 1 ) 100 gp each Might be how i have to go till i save up gold..
Rauul 08-02-07, 01:42 AM	There are lots of items that produce light, but they do so for your opponent, as well. You could get a belt of dwarvenkind for 14,900 gp, or the slightly cheaper but less useful goggles of night for 12,000. Producing light is out of the question for Shadow.. he is a Hide and Snipe/Backstab/assassinate character
Zevox 08-02-07, 02:07 AM	Shadow is going Shadowdancer, right? At second level those get Darkvision to 60', so once you hit that level, your problem is solved. Until then, I'd say you hit the nail on the head with those last two ideas - tattoo of elfsight works for anything less than total darkness, and to see in total darkness without producing light you absolutely need darkvision, so either spellcasting service or a potion of that will do. Zevox
Rauul 08-02-07, 02:13 AM	Shadow is going Shadowdancer, right? At second level those get Darkvision to 60', so once you hit that level, your problem is solved. Until then, I'd say you hit the nail on the head with those last two ideas - tattoo of elfsight works for anything less than total darkness, and to see in total darkness without producing light you absolutely need darkvision, so either spellcasting service or a potion of that will do. Zevox Thats what i am thinking... was sort of shocked darkvision isn't on the assassin or bard spell lists..
lonewolf 08-02-07, 02:21 AM	The Chameleon has a similar problem. Shadowdancer just isnt that interesting after 1st level because it doesnt increase your sneak attack dice. I think I will go with stones of psionic Darkvision for her.
hogarth 08-02-07, 06:41 AM	Producing light is out of the question for Shadow.. he is a Hide and Snipe/Backstab/assassinate character Dancing Lights might work, though; it's a bard spell.
McJarvis 08-02-07, 02:13 PM	Completely unrelated to anything here-> Does anyone know how crystal keep keeps from getting shut down by WotC for publishing copyrighted info?
hogarth 08-02-07, 02:40 PM	Completely unrelated to anything here-> Does anyone know how crystal keep keeps from getting shut down by WotC for publishing copyrighted info? If they cracked down on it (and I bet they could, "fair use" notwithstanding), do you expect their book sales would skyrocket? If not, then what's the point?
McJarvis 08-02-07, 03:23 PM	If they cracked down on it (and I bet they could, "fair use" notwithstanding), do you expect their book sales would skyrocket? If not, then what's the point? "A patent's only worth as much as you're willing to defend it"?
hogarth 08-02-07, 03:55 PM	"A patent's only worth as much as you're willing to defend it"? Cracking down on internet piracy requires a big, heavy-handed industry association like the RIAA or the MPAA. I don't know if there is such a thing for books.
SoulLord 08-02-07, 04:06 PM	Auburn in Twilight I have one more week to get Auburn ready for campaign. I've pared down the spell book a bit and now I'm not sure what to do with the extra cash. I've got about 7000, though I could remove some more spells and get extra cash. Options cape of montebank - handy and always useful wand of web - classic, but limited by terrain glove of storing - fun stuff in general, and can carry that quiver of colossal telekenetic arrows with it. necklace of adaptation - can cast stinking cloud or cloudkill on my own space; also fits thematically. max out expendables and get a lv 1 wand or two. Problem: I already have a necklace con+2 and gloves dex+2. Suggestions? saves are a bit on the low side a failed reflex or fortitude save at high levels can mean defeat. how about some bags of holding? suggestion: get cloack of resistance I like that you have dimensional anchor and circle against evil they should be useful on the campaign.
SoulLord 08-02-07, 04:16 PM	Quick question: Last I heard we could buy any kind of wand our hearts desired (not the same with staff's though) so I wanted to check if this was valid. wand of reverberating sound. aka: wand of acid arrow energy substitution (sonic) without credit cost just pay the gp.
templer10 08-02-07, 04:18 PM	Quick question: Last I heard we could buy any kinf of wand our hearts desired (not the same with staff's though) so I wanted to check if this was valid. wand of reverberating sound. aka: wand of acid arrow energy substitution (sonic) without credit cost just pay the gp. yes you can - all wands are free of credits.
TelinArtho 08-02-07, 05:23 PM	In case this wasn't apparent to any of the other guildmasters - if you want to spend a cap to send one of the characters involved in the campaigns - you should do so on Aug 8th actions.
MindWandererB 08-03-07, 12:13 AM	Community of Gladius update: I'm thinking of nixing all the PvP-specific elements. The reason being that I'm not sure attacking another PC is going to be a viable mechanic. It's difficult to be sure that your opponent would have been active anyway (don't want to attack someone whose player isn't there to write tactics, or force someone to activate a character they didn't want to), and the timing would be rough (the update deadline needs to be early enough to allow other players the knowledge before planning attacks, then communicate it to the opponent in time for reactions, but late enough that you can edit after any fights). This leaves the issue of challenges up in the air. Some ideas that I had: Some of the nonstandard fight types we've discussed before: monster hunts, King of the Hill/Capture the Flag, etc. Because these wouldn't be "real" fights, balance would be much less of an issue. Skill-based challenges (definitely some like the guild Contests, possibly some like the guild covert/intrigue ops) Agent vs. Agent battles (I'm thinking something between the guild regiments and standard PC combat--battles involving moderate numbers of low-level opponents and possibly monsters, all CR < 3) Quests and miniquests, of course; perhaps a way to inflict a malus on an entire district until/unless someone does a quest to lift itThoughts? Also, I'm still looking for anyone (looking mainly at you, Sauro) who has some idea about what the "theme" of each district was supposed to be. I know Cat had an idea, but I also know that idea is slightly defunct (Gladius Park used to be the druid-y area, for one). If no one knows, I'll just make stuff up (although if anyone has any preferences or neat ideas, I'm all ears).
Rauul 08-03-07, 01:22 AM	Honestly I like the Idea of Fame (Reputation), Recourses, and Influence.. if each District had a Base of Each... and then for each Character in the District (that belongs to different players) the District goes up or down.. Depending on who lives there.. Now you can have "District Events" where things happen in different Districts and Players can Intercept them By using their Influence, or Direct action like MiniQuests.. Something else to think about is District points .03 point per Activation of the Character in a District.. 3 points to go District Quest (allows players without credits to go on Quests to Improve their standing in a District.. and Improving the District) Personnelly I do have a Problem with Set titles... Some people would use thier Fame as Infamy ("Prince Shadow" just don't sound as Good as "Shadow, The Godfather of Upper Max") I do like the Idea of removing the the PvP combat aspect.. but the Ability to Assassinate, Kidnap, etc (in the district with a District Action.. and get Fame (Reputation), Recourses, and Influence, in return (or loose if you fail).. But your Right... Need to use the K.I.S.S. Effect.. (Keep It Simple Stupid).. get to complicated it will be as bad as the guilds are... (and after almost 9 months i am still lost in the guild)
MindWandererB 08-03-07, 02:53 AM	Honestly I like the Idea of Fame (Reputation), Recourses, and Influence.. if each District had a Base of Each... and then for each Character in the District (that belongs to different players) the District goes up or down.. Depending on who lives there.. Interesting idea, and I had considered something like it, but decided against it because it would require a large amount of micromanagement on the part of Communitylords--they'd have to check every value of every character weekly. That's harder than Pitlords' job. Something else to think about is District points .03 point per Activation of the Character in a District.. 3 points to go District Quest (allows players without credits to go on Quests to Improve their standing in a District.. and Improving the District)Rather than a point system (which sounds flawed in that whoever spends the communal points first gets them), I was thinking that these quests would just have to be multiplayer. Requiring two PCs per quest keeps the pitlord load down, alleviating the need for credits as compensation. Personnelly I do have a Problem with Set titles... Some people would use thier Fame as Infamy ("Prince Shadow" just don't sound as Good as "Shadow, The Godfather of Upper Max")I dunno... Prince Shadow sound pretty darn cool to me. The local titles could be unique, but if you can call yourself whatever you like, it kind of removes the prestige of having particular titles. For the kind of thing you propose, I'd rather keep it to the guilds (v.3.0). After all, a Godfather would rank highly within his organization, but wouldn't have any status at all to anyone else. But your Right... Need to use the K.I.S.S. Effect.. (Keep It Simple Stupid).. get to complicated it will be as bad as the guilds are... (and after almost 9 months i am still lost in the guild)God, yes. Of all the things I regret most about the current guild system (not that I had much to do with it), the complexity tops the list. There's a reason why we have to pay credits to get people to be willing to be guildmasters, and even still we have a hard time getting all the guilds taken care of. v.3.0 will be a much more fluid, and simpler, system.
MindWandererB 08-03-07, 03:02 AM	I see bluemage55 lurking... how ya' doing? Haven't seen you around in a long time.
Yitzi 08-03-07, 03:37 PM	I've come up with a new character (my first using UA), and would like to know what people think (I'm leaving for a while soon, so it won't be activated until I come back).
Rauul 08-03-07, 05:44 PM	I realize this proably isn't exactly what you wanted... and yes i added the general Alignment of the areas (sue me i am boneheaded.. ask Mac and mitza) I didn't go to much into descriptions.. figured i would leave that up to you guys and gals Graveyard District For a city known for the nimbus where people don't die.. This District is Quite large, right on the Edge of the Nimbus where those that die outside the Nimbus are buried.. The residence of this District are mainly undead and necromancers, with Shrines and Temples to the various Gods of the Dead. Alignment : Neutral evil Resoruses : Undead, Religion ------------------------------------------------------------------ Red Light District A city like Gladius has a Fairly large District for the ladies of the Pleasure, Located Close to the Colesium where the Gladiators can go to unwind between battles The Residence of this District are Prositutes and Pimps with Shrines and temples to Various Gods of Pleasure and beauty Alignment : Neutral Resoruses : Street, Underworld ------------------------------------------------------------------ The Bazaar The largest market place in the known World, you can find anything here, Exotic Items and Animals, you name it and if you look around this huge marketplace long enough you can find it.. or Have it Found for you Residences of The Bazaar are merchants, and thier bodyguards, there are various temples and Shrines around the Bazaar, for all the Gods of Profit and Greed Alignment :Neutral Resoruses :Finance, Street. ------------------------------------------------------------------ The Wharfs The roughest area in Gladius, fights and and roddy sailors flood to here, Thugs and Sailors of various Ships come here when they make port, the madams of here are rougher that any in the red light district, Several have been know to take apart the Sailors that abuse their Women.. Residence of the Wharfs are the bar owners, Smugglers, Sailors, and thugs of all various forms.. Alignment :Chaotic Evil Resoruses : Street, Underworld ------------------------------------------------------------------ The Asylum This District is Dominated by the Cathedral of madness, where the Insane are treated and cared for By Various priests who attempt to care for them. Residence of the Asylum are the Insane, priests Alignment : Chaotic Neutral Resoruses : Religion ------------------------------------------------------------------ Purity District This is the Distric where those who dislike violence and attempt to stay sheltered from the Evil of the real world around them, Dominated by the Marble Castle, and temples of all the Goodly Gods Residence of Purity District are priests, paladins and all others who wish to live in their own little world Alignment :Lawful Good Resorses : Religion, Finance
MindWandererB 08-03-07, 06:53 PM	Yeeah... that's not going to work, so much. We're not creating an entirely new city, here. It's still Gladius. Since apparently no one has any idea what each district was originally supposed to be like, I'm going to have to wing it. I'll put in a couple of entries sometime within the next week, and you'll see what I'm looking for.
Vathelokai 08-03-07, 11:59 PM	I've come up with a new character (my first using UA), and would like to know what people think (I'm leaving for a while soon, so it won't be activated until I come back). The post number to link the variant features is 9901957. Trading combat style for wildshape and barbarian speed I assume? Xeph burst of speed lasts 3 rounds, not 3 minutes. Note also, it is a standard action to activate, so that first round is a bit short. Since it's a high dex build, consider switching out dodge for weapon finesse; all natural weapons are light, so unarmed strikes and wildshape stuff will get a nice bonus. However, since you have ranks in dance, I'm guessing you need it to enter a prestige class. If so, I'd consider pushing the PrC back, or even getting a lv of fighter just to get that feat; it'll be worth it in my opinion. A darkwood buckler has the same armor check of zero, but is 100gp cheaper, and half the weight (and considered masterwork, if you want to enchant later). The +1 str on your composite longbow isn't listed. Your speed is good, but not quite horse level. Consider grabing a wand of entangle to slow your enemies down, and corner them in smaller maps.
Rauul 08-04-07, 12:15 AM	I've come up with a new character (my first using UA), and would like to know what people think (I'm leaving for a while soon, so it won't be activated until I come back). Ranger/Monk going shadowdancer maybe?
NiQil 08-04-07, 12:18 AM	Ranger/Monk going shadowdancer maybe? We seem to have an abundance of 'dancers recently....I'm still waiting for the run on Arcane Tricksters.....
Rauul 08-04-07, 02:03 AM	We seem to have an abundance of 'dancers recently....I'm still waiting for the run on Arcane Tricksters..... Why.... I was thinking of making one of them acually... sheesh EDIT=> Opps i ment Arcane Archer.. trickters i feel are about worthless
Rauul 08-04-07, 03:46 AM	This may be cheesie to ask... Arcane Archer, imbues an arrow with fireball fires it from a Supression bow.. what happenes first.. the bow's Supression or the fireball? :)
lonewolf 08-04-07, 06:24 AM	they happen together => any protection against the Fireball that could be dispelled still protects against the Fireball. We had this discussion with Karens Spiked Chain of Supression + Dissolving Weapon.
Rauul 08-04-07, 09:22 AM	they happen together => any protection against the Fireball that could be dispelled still protects against the Fireball. We had this discussion with Karens Spiked Chain of Supression + Dissolving Weapon. so suppress first then fireball.. gotcha
lonewolf 08-04-07, 10:14 AM	so suppress first then fireball.. gotcha No they happen together, so nothing is dispelled before the Fireball hits.
Rauul 08-04-07, 11:32 AM	No they happen together, so nothing is dispelled before the Fireball hits. no i mean i use suppression then i use fireball (2 different rounds)
Vathelokai 08-04-07, 01:50 PM	1) One last request for people to look over Auburn for improvements. I'm going on a Telin campaign here; I'm kinda paranoid. Suggestions on memorized spells and scrolls apprecitated. 2) Is anyone up to running a miniquest so the 'new' Auburn can offically join the Arcane Order? Plot: Defending the city from some (or multiple) monster of Denth. If not, I'll get it done monster fight style at next pairings.
TelinArtho 08-04-07, 02:06 PM	I should be able to manage it Vath. I promise - I won't make it an advanced elite half-dragon barbazu...
Yitzi 08-04-07, 11:35 PM	The post number to link the variant features is 9901957. Actually, the post would be the blackmarket post in which it is approved. Trading combat style for wildshape and barbarian speed I assume?Yes. Since it's a high dex build, consider switching out dodge for weapon finesse; all natural weapons are light, so unarmed strikes and wildshape stuff will get a nice bonus. I'm not planning to go far enough to get wildshape-the variant was just for the speed bonus. And I plan on using primarily ranged attacks, so weapon finesse is not as important, and I've already got a list of important feats I need. However, since you have ranks in dance, I'm guessing you need it to enter a prestige class. If so, I'd consider pushing the PrC back, or even getting a lv of fighter just to get that feat; it'll be worth it in my opinion. I'm actually planning to take a level of psiwar, but even so I'm crammed on feats-I plan for mobility (for the PrC) level 6, PBS psiwar so I can get precise shot level 9 in time for my shadow ally at level 10. Then I'll probably spend level 12 on spring attack, as it's only 1 more and works well with my high speed. A darkwood buckler has the same armor check of zero, but is 100gp cheaper, and half the weight (and considered masterwork, if you want to enchant later). No, it's 50 gp more. The +1 str on your composite longbow isn't listed. Your speed is good, but not quite horse level. Consider grabing a wand of entangle to slow your enemies down, and corner them in smaller maps.[/QUOTE] I don't have to be horse level, as my focus isn't just speed, it's speed+sneak. Ranger/Monk going shadowdancer maybe? Close. The original plan was ranger1/monk2/sorc1/soulknife3 going shadowdancer, but I decided on monk2/ranger1/psiwar1/soulknife2 going shadowdancer.
Scribelords 08-04-07, 11:59 PM	Announcements Birthdays A happy birthday to Dr. Funk, Sindorin, Sunwolf, and Lonewolf. Expect your presents at next weeks pairings. Writing Contest The Summer Writing Contest has come to a close, and the winner is SoulLord's story, Crowtongue the Necromancer. Congratulations on your win, and the 2 credit prize. Once the Tales thread is out of the archives, it will be placed with the other writing contest winners. Newspaper The newspaper will return to publication soon. We hope for a weekly addition, but to do that we need your help. Submissions of all sorts will be accepted; articles on quests, articles on arena fights, classified ads, opinions, announcements, pictures, short fiction... anything goes. There is no minimum length and our editor will fix any grammar, spelling, and typesetting errors at no charge. Not only that, but you'll earn credits. Send submissions to Vathelokai, Scribelords, or Gladius_News_Network.
Vathelokai 08-05-07, 01:32 AM	I should be able to manage it Vath. I promise - I won't make it an advanced elite half-dragon barbazu... :evillaugh :heehee Bring on the phrenic gibbering-mouther/cryo-hydra lich!
Rauul 08-05-07, 04:39 PM	Can someone look at these and make sure I am doing it right? Size/Type: Medium Undead (Extraplanar) Hit Dice: 3d12+6 (26 hp)(+6 Desecration) Initiative: +7 Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), fly 60 ft. (good) Armor Class: 15 (+3 Dex, +2 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 15 Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+6 Attack: Bite +6 melee (1d8+4) Full Attack: Bite +6 melee (1d8+4) Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: Special Qualities: Damage reduction 10/silver Damage reduction 5/Bludgeon Immunity to Cold darkvision 60 ft flight Undead Traits Saves: Fort +1, Ref +3, Will +4 Abilities: Str 17, Dex 17, Con --, Int --, Wis 14, Cha 1 Feats: Improved Initiative Challenge Rating: 1 Alignment: Always neutral evil Flight (Su) A yeth hound can cease or resume flight as a free action. -------------------------------------------------------- Size/Type: Large Undead Hit Dice: 12d12+15 (87 hp)(+12 desecration) Initiative: -1 Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares) Armor Class: 16 (-1 size,-1 dex +8 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 16 Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+14 Attack: Greataxe +10 melee (3d6+6/×3) Full Attack: : Greataxe +10 melee (3d6+6/×3) Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft. Special Attacks: Special Qualities: damage reduction 5/slashing,Single Actions Only,Darkvision 60 ft.,Undead Traits Saves: Fort +4, Ref +4, Will +8 Abilities: Str 21, Dex 8, Con --, Int --, Wis 10, Cha 1 Feats: Toughness. Environment: Underground Organization: any Challenge Rating: 4 Alignment: Usually Neutral evil ------------------------------------------------------------------- Size/Type: Large Undead Hit Dice: 4d12+8 (32 hp) (+8 Desecration) Initiative: +2 Speed: 50 ft. (10 squares) Armor Class: 15 (-1 size, +3 Dex, +3 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 13 Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+12 Attack: Greatsword +7 melee (3d6+6/x3) or composite longbow (+4 Str bonus) +6 ranged (2d6+4/×3) Full Attack: Greatsword +7 melee (3d6+6/x3) and 2 hooves +3 melee (1d6+2); or composite longbow (+4 Str bonus) +6 ranged (2d6+4/×3) Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: — Special Qualities:Immunity to Cold,damage deduction 5/bludgeoning, Darkvision 60 ft. Undead Traits Saves: Fort +1, Ref +4, Will +4 Abilities: Str 18, Dex 16, Con --, Int --, Wis 10, Cha 1 Feats: Improved Initiative Environment: Temperate forests Challenge Rating: 2 Treasure: Standard Alignment: neutral Evil A centaur employing a lance deals double damage when it charges, just as a rider on a mount does.
Malither76 08-05-07, 05:11 PM	Hey Everyone, sorry for my absence, much drama and stuff went down the last few days. things look to be getting back to normal but who knows what tomorrow holds. @my pittlords and opponents sorry I didn't get a chance to write tactics or even look at the pairings. @Telin sorry about the quest. I'm going to get something up now. we can catch up.
MindWandererB 08-05-07, 09:11 PM	Community of Gladius thread has been updated. New features are a couple of examples of what I was thinking for district entries, the replacement of Actions with Challenges, and altered uses of Fame to reflect that change. The Challenges are by far the most interesting bit of the whole thing--I imagine most of you will be excited by the ideas, and several of you will have some strong trepidation. Take a look.
hogarth 08-05-07, 09:44 PM	Bring on the phrenic gibbering-mouther/cryo-hydra lich! Hopefully he'll stick with something more simple like a half-fiend young white dragon with 6 levels of adept. You can take a level 15 Blasphemy, right?
Vathelokai 08-05-07, 09:52 PM	Hopefully he'll stick with something more simple like a half-fiend young white dragon with 6 levels of adept. You can take a level 15 Blasphemy, right? No problem! It's the huge advanced earth elemental half fiends I'm worried about.
SauroGrenom 08-05-07, 10:15 PM	Ok, Just got back from the white coat ceremony. Family just rolled out of town, and I've the evening tonight to catch up before monday classes begin. The campaign next round of combat is done, and I'm reading through the major threads to see if I need to catch up on things. MWB, I'm looking over the community stuff now. What I can do is answer some of your questions about the district flavor and such. Cat and I discussed this mostly with respect to the guild game and the idea of "irregular" troops. The basic idea was that each district would have a basic stereotypical inhabitant, much like certain neighborhoods of a city are identified as the "Irish" or "Italian" districts. Most of them could also be associated with particular character classes. Also I recall that one of the earlier maps showed a river running through Gladius. It came through Upper Merx, Gladius Park, Kelartus, and into Villis. The city was divided into the "upper" northern wealthy city in the hills on the northern side of "old gladius", and the southern "lower" poor city along the river south of "old Gladius". There were generally two of each major thing not otherwise regulated by the "poor" and "wealthy" status of the districts. So Villis was the slummy shipping center, and Gawane was the "wealthy" shipping district. And Upper Merx was the affluent shopping district, while Lower Merx was the slummy one. Kelartus was the slummy center of learning populated by monks, missionaries, and individual wizards with apprentices. While Archadivius was the wealthy center of learning with an organized school of magic. Central Gladius was the old town with antiquated buildings and fortresses, while Gorthyum and Merisia were the new seats of the council and police force respectively. Gauterix was to be the slummiest most crime ridden part of town while Arkhein was the paladin fortress. Traversham was the home of cloistered monks. Kailo and Duken Marina were opposed "entertainment" districts with the bawdy sailor or highbrow theater themes. Gladius Park was strangely placed as the great city park in the midst of the slums, a last remaining visage of an old nature preserve kept by elves. Outside of the city was great Yurnwood, and the rest was kind of "wild" lawless land populated by more "chaotic" peoples like orcs and lizard people. The themes here are all kind of thin and vague, and they were all chosen with the guild game in mind to some extent. This was all lain over the basic idea of an affluent vs poor parts of town. Then apply the Year of Hell over it all, and everything is in ruins. Only some parts of town are ruins of mansions, while other parts are ruins of hovels. So you paint a picture of a post-apocalyptic city lain over a socially and economically stratified metropolis. Those social and economic stratifications are still there, but they don't matter as much unless rebuilt and strengthened (hence the job of the guilds).
SauroGrenom 08-05-07, 10:52 PM	As I read over the influence stuff, I have a few realizations... First, the influence lacks a Psionic Influence for a psionic manifesting services prebuff. Also as you mentioned before, the whole player vs player thing creates a logistical morass of communication needed to get everything right. It could work better if we were all sitting at a table together, but over a forum I'm dubious that it will work. I like that you took out the penalties imposed by your rivals. That was complex. He's my idea for the "volley" opposition of rivalries using your challenges as a basis. Say that Bob challenges Tom to a challenge of some kind, and Tom wins. Tom gets the typical Fame bonus for winning a battle. Two weeks later Bob challenges Tom, and a "rivalry" is born. If Tom wins, then it's a normal victory for him and the Rivalry ends... If Bob wins, then he receives a +10% fame bonus and the Rivalry Status continues. Rivalry only continues as long as victory changes hands each contest. If there is a third battle, then the winner receives a +20% bonus, and that bonus continues to increase till one participant wins twice in a row. The initiator of the challenge must change hands, and the winner of the challenge must change hands each time they meet to continue the rivalry. So there are winner's rivalries, and losers rivalries where the initiator of the challenge is expected to win or loose respectively. If the same character repetitively initiates the challenge, or repetitively wins the challenge, then there is no longer a rivalry. This is something the characters can keep track of, and simply note it as they make their challenges. So for example Bob's week 2 title line reads: Ready for Today's Date: Winner's Rivalry 10% (Challenge Type X) vs Tom The mediator of the battle (pitlord?) knows that if Bob wins, then an award of +10% fame is given. If these two guys are well matched, their rivalry goes back and forth for several weeks, and they both build a great fame as a result. But if Tom is always the winner, then neither Tom or Bob receives benefit from the non-existent rivalry.
MindWandererB 08-06-07, 01:23 AM	First, the influence lacks a Psionic Influence for a psionic manifesting services prebuff.That was intentional. The number of psionic effects that can be put on someone other than yourself can be counted on your fingers, if not on one hand. And most of those can be duplicated with arcane or divine magic. And I don't think any of the remaining ones last more than an hour. I could be wrong, but I didn't much see the point. Also as you mentioned before, the whole player vs player thing creates a logistical morass of communication needed to get everything right. It could work better if we were all sitting at a table together, but over a forum I'm dubious that it will work.Yeah, that's why it's gone. There will still be ways to compete against people, but none of them will directly attack a specific player. I haven't figured all that out yet, but the worst someone could do to someone else would be to mess up their district. He's my idea for the "volley" opposition of rivalries using your challenges as a basis....Interesting. I was planning on having fame be one of the rewards for winning (or losing) a challenge, and this has possibilities. Let me try to break it down into mechanical terms, and see if what I'm saying makes sense. Whenever two characters are involved in a one-on-one challenge (not a multiplayer challenge, although an agent challenge would count if the agents belonged to only two characters), there is the potential for a rivalry. A rivalry is born if 1) the character who delivered the initial challenge recieves a challenge from the other character, 2) the character that lost the initial challenge wins the new challenge, and 3) the challenge is of the same type as the intial challenge.. When this occurs, the fame rewards for each participant are increased by 20%. The rivalry can continue if the pattern repeats, and the fame rewards are increased by 20% each time. If one character wins or delivers two of these challenges in a row, there is no fame bonus for that challenge, and the rivalry bonus goes down by 20% instead of increasing. When the rivalry bonus goes down to 0, the rivalry is ended. Yes, I increased both the reward and the stability of the rivalry--the way you had it, I doubt a rivalry would get very far, and wouldn't produce much even if it did. I also added that the challenge has to be of the same type, or else the participants will take turns playing to each others's strengths and deliberately trade off victories. I still see a hazard in deliberately throwing challenges in order to keep the rivalry going. Not sure how to fix that. I'm not sure that the pitlord has to pay attention to this kind of thing--since rewards will be much more constant than arena XP rewards, I think the player can track it themselves. A rivalry will be clear in the challenge record in their Community post, anyway. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Regarding the districts: It sounds like due to the Year of Hell, we have some freedom in the system. No one's to say that a destroyed region would have developed the same way it originally did. I also don't think the rich/poor dichotomy will work well for this system--the district "wealth" will be tied directly in with the characters who live there. I'm inclined to keep half of each pair--probably Vilis, Lower Merx, and Arcadivius, since those three are guild seats, and would thus have been rebuilt the most--and rework the remaining half. Central Gladius might need a rework due to WAR's influence, with Gorthyum most likely taking over the role of the center of high society. A police center doesn't seem like much to go on for a theme, and besides, that had a lot to do with EYE. Gauterix can remain a center of crime, and Arkhein a center of good religion. High Traversham... not sure about that one, what with the Denthians. It might stay the same, but that's kind of boring--perhaps a seat of corrupt religion. Kailo and Duken Marina can stay as they are (there's that red-light district I ws looking for). Gladius Park makes no sense anymore; not sure what to do with that. I'll write up the blurbs for the ones I'm pretty sure of, and then we can discuss the others.
Rauul 08-06-07, 01:45 AM	the reason necromancers learn to craft thier own equipment... Some shopkeeper Is liking the Corrupter... Centaurs Equipment 2 Large Composite longbows 2000 gp 2 Large lances 40 gp 2 Large longswords 60 gp 2 Large Chain shirt barding 1600 gp 120 arrows 12 gp Minotaur Equipment Large Chain shirt barding 800 gp Large Greataxe(mw) 340 gp Yeth Hounds Equipment 2 med Chain mail barding 800 gp ------------------------------------ ToTal 5642 Gp Amulet of Health 2000 gp ------------------------------------ Grand total 7642 gp But the Minotaur solved the meat shield problem.. the Hounds and Centaurs make good shock troops :) *is a happy necromancer* granted there are 2 uncommanded Zombies mules up by the Marble castle now :)
SauroGrenom 08-06-07, 08:33 AM	Just had a memory about Gladius Park. It was the King's personal hunting grounds when the city was just old Gladius. After centuries of growth, Old Gladius grew and surrounded the King's land, leaving a "park" owned by the royalty and situated in the middle of the city.
TelinArtho 08-06-07, 12:29 PM	Anyone else see that the URL has changed for the forums: http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=483 I suspect I'm not the only one but - wierd...
hogarth 08-06-07, 12:31 PM	Anyone else see that the URL has changed for the forums: http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=483 I suspect I'm not the only one but - wierd... There's been a sticky announcement posted for the past few weeks announcing that they're moving domains.
TelinArtho 08-06-07, 12:32 PM	Oh - I missed it. Rather annoying - it seems to have screwed with my user settings...
TelinArtho 08-06-07, 12:33 PM	Correction. It didn't change my settings - but the board doesn't seem to acknowledge my choice of skin. Annoying.
MindWandererB 08-06-07, 01:38 PM	@Sauro: Actually, just before you posted, I emailed Cat about it. He just gave me some more thorough descriptions; I'll implement those, probably later today.
Abyssal Stalker 08-06-07, 03:02 PM	If there is someone who needs a (mini)questlord/missionlord - I'm available. One or two max - I need to scracth up some credits but I don't have too much spare time on my hands...
TelinArtho 08-06-07, 03:12 PM	@Abyssal - I might take you up on that in a few weeks (once the campaign gets going - I'm far too busy preparing right now...). Dentik and Ialgo (my elemental clerics) need to go questing to try to gain control of some Earth, Fire and Air creatures...
templer10 08-06-07, 05:16 PM	i want to clear something up for myself - can you use teh mounted combat/ride by attack/spirited charge feat line while on a flying mount? from what i read i would say mounted combat and spirited charge yes and rideby attack probably not (since there is flyby attack)
TelinArtho 08-06-07, 05:22 PM	Yes you can. That said - Ride by attack and Flyby attack are different. Ride by attack allows an attack action in the middle of two move actions by a mounted character. Fly by attack allows a standard action in the middle of one move action by a flying character (if the character is mounted on the flying creature - he need not apply...).
templer10 08-06-07, 05:30 PM	Yes you can. That said - Ride by attack and Flyby attack are different. Ride by attack allows an attack action in the middle of two move actions by a mounted character. Fly by attack allows a standard action in the middle of one move action by a flying character (if the character is mounted on the flying creature - he need not apply...). cool.
TelinArtho 08-06-07, 05:39 PM	Actually - I need to correct myself on the Ride-by-attack statement. It isn't necessarily an attack action in the middle of two move actions. When you are mounted and use the charge action, you may move and attack as if with a standard charge and then move again (continuing the straight line of the charge). Your total movement for the round can’t exceed double your mounted speed. You and your mount do not provoke an attack of opportunity from the opponent that you attack.
templer10 08-06-07, 05:49 PM	Actually - I need to correct myself on the Ride-by-attack statement. It isn't necessarily an attack action in the middle of two move actions. nm
MindWandererB 08-06-07, 06:06 PM	District descriptions in the Community have been updated. Several are still blank, and a few are kind of inadequate to give a player a reason to move in. The district effects are also up for discussion. And several lack pictures--I'll keep looking for those, but if anyone has or finds any good ones, let me know. There have also been minor updates to resources. Still need a lot of work there.
Airwhale 08-06-07, 07:51 PM	So, what do light sensitve folks use to protect themselves from the sun? Can you buy sunglasses or hats with rims on them?
Airwhale 08-06-07, 09:33 PM	Also, can a ring of counterspells with dispel magic in it counter athe "dispel psionics" power? My hunch is no, but I'm unsure how far the magic/psionic transparency goes...
TelinArtho 08-06-07, 09:49 PM	Also, can a ring of counterspells with dispel magic in it counter athe "dispel psionics" power? My hunch is no, but I'm unsure how far the magic/psionic transparency goes... No. Dispel Magic is not Dispel Psionics. Also there is no "counterspell" mechanic to psionics.
Airwhale 08-06-07, 10:08 PM	Sort of. You can use dispel magic as a counterspell on psionics, see: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060613a A counterspell involves recognizing a spell as it is being cast, then quickly altering that same spell so as to create an opposite effect that cancels out the original spell. A psionic power taps the manifester's mental energy in a process unlike any spell. (Many powers have results similar to certain spells, but they achieve those results through different means.) As noted earlier, most psionic powers are subject to dispelling (unless their descriptions say they are not). When a psionic power can be dispelled (as most of them are), one can effectively counter them with a dispel magic spell (or the dispel psionics power). While psionic powers are not normally subject to counterspells, dispel magic is not really a counterspell. When you use dispel magic as a counterspell, what you're really doing is quickly casting a targeted dispel effect at the correct moment to negate the enemy spell and not creating an opposite magical effect that cancels your enemy's spell. The question is, would the ring be triggered in this case. I'm guessing not, as this is use of dispel magic is more of a readied action. Even though the magic and psionic version are *exactly the same* in all respects...
SauroGrenom 08-06-07, 10:24 PM	Sort of. You can use dispel magic as a counterspell on psionics, see: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060613a The question is, would the ring be triggered in this case. I'm guessing not, as this is use of dispel magic is more of a readied action. Even though the magic and psionic version are *exactly the same* in all respects... Edit: IMO, Not. The readied action dispel magic is sufficiently different as a mechanic compared to the actual counter spell mechanic.
Eamane 08-06-07, 10:34 PM	Umm. Perhaps you didn't finish reading the whole thing... About half way down the page you find the following bullet point: "A psionic power cannot be used as a counterspell, nor is it subject to counterspells." So nothing can counterspell a psionic power... nothing. Dispelling and counter spells are different. You can dispel a psionic effect as a readied action, but not counterspell it. And right down beneath that... "As noted earlier, most psionic powers are subject to dispelling (unless their descriptions say they are not). When a psionic power can be dispelled (as most of them are), one can effectively counter them with a dispel magic spell (or the dispel psionics power). While psionic powers are not normally subject to counterspells, dispel magic is not really a counterspell. When you use dispel magic as a counterspell, what you're really doing is quickly casting a targeted dispel effect at the correct moment to negate the enemy spell and not creating an opposite magical effect that cancels your enemy's spell." Bolding my own, of course. So dispel magic (or dispel psionics) can be used to counterspell psionics powers.
SauroGrenom 08-06-07, 10:38 PM	And right down beneath that... "As noted earlier, most psionic powers are subject to dispelling (unless their descriptions say they are not). When a psionic power can be dispelled (as most of them are), one can effectively counter them with a dispel magic spell (or the dispel psionics power). While psionic powers are not normally subject to counterspells, dispel magic is not really a counterspell. When you use dispel magic as a counterspell, what you're really doing is quickly casting a targeted dispel effect at the correct moment to negate the enemy spell and not creating an opposite magical effect that cancels your enemy's spell." Bolding my own, of course. So dispel magic (or dispel psionics) can be used to counterspell psionics powers. It's an example of converging evolution... Two different mechanics with similar effects, but different philosophies used to approach the effects. A Ring of Counterspell uses the counterspell mechanic, and not a readied dispel magic mechanic. It would be possible to use a well worded Contingency and a Dispel Magic to get a similar effect as a counterspell ring... but that's a different thing at it's heart.
NiQil 08-06-07, 10:52 PM	It's an example of converging evolution... Two different mechanics with similar effects, but different philosophies used to approach the effects. A Ring of Counterspell uses the counterspell mechanic, and not a readied dispel magic mechanic. It would be possible to use a well worded Contingency and a Dispel Magic to get a similar effect as a counterspell ring... but that's a different thing at it's heart. One wonders if you could explain this to me like I was a 4 yr old....all those big words....you lost me at 'example'. :P
SauroGrenom 08-06-07, 11:06 PM	The new boards are annoying me... Every few minutes, they log me out. Then I have to re-enter the login and password to get back into my account. Meh.
NiQil 08-06-07, 11:12 PM	The new boards are annoying me... Every few minutes, they log me out. Then I have to re-enter the login and password to get back into my account. Meh. Yeah...according to the little sticky at the top of the forum, they have temporarily disabled the 'Remember Me' portion of the login process while the transition is happening....that is why that is happening.
MindWandererB 08-07-07, 01:10 AM	Yeah...according to the little sticky at the top of the forum, they have temporarily disabled the 'Remember Me' portion of the login process while the transition is happening....that is why that is happening. Actually, I'm having no problem, although I did for a while. The RotG is explicit: Dispel Magic can be used to "counterspell" psionics. Which is lameness incarnate, because you can't use Dispel Psionics to counterspell anything, not even magic. If psionics could be counterspelled or used to counterspell, it would have that function. But such is life.
Eamane 08-07-07, 01:13 AM	Actually, I'm having no problem, although I did for a while. The RotG is explicit: Dispel Magic can be used to "counterspell" psionics. Which is lameness incarnate, because you can't use Dispel Psionics to counterspell anything, not even magic. If psionics could be counterspelled or used to counterspell, it would have that function. But such is life. Actually... the RotG says you can use Dispel Psionic to counterspell Psionic powers. Perhaps the lack of the counterspell option in the description of Dispel Psionics was an oversight rather than intent? It certainly seems like it, with RotG taken into account.
MindWandererB 08-07-07, 01:22 AM	Actually... the RotG says you can use Dispel Psionic to counterspell Psionic powers. Perhaps the lack of the counterspell option in the description of Dispel Psionics was an oversight rather than intent? It certainly seems like it, with RotG taken into account. You're right, and that ticks me off even more. That's not a ruling, that's errata. Not his job.
Eamane 08-07-07, 03:28 AM	So to side-step the Dispel Psionics issue for a second, I'm looking for some advice on a character idea of mine. The idea occured to me in it's rawest form as 'Barbarian with Speed of Thought'. After considering it, one level of Psychic Warrior looks to be the quickest way to get said speed of thought and if it's long-term enhanced speed your looking for, levels of Monk cant be beat. So I worked up the rough form here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13332088&postcount=1199), complete with portrait (though I think I'll resize it to be smaller, as it might be a bit much for slower connections loading). I'm not quite sure where to go from that basic build though. Featwise, I can increase his ranged ability to take advantage of his improved speed. Or I can aim towards a quick prestige class like Psionic Fist(+2 monk then +1monk/psychic warrior for the last point of BAB), Elocater (Which will eat up all my feats) or Shadowdancer (Also eating up my feats). Heck, I could take Elocater and Shadowdancer, though my BAB will be worse than horrible. Anyone have any thoughts/suggestions?
templer10 08-07-07, 04:04 AM	Actually, I'm having no problem, although I did for a while. The RotG is explicit: Dispel Magic can be used to "counterspell" psionics. Which is lameness incarnate, because you can't use Dispel Psionics to counterspell anything, not even magic. If psionics could be counterspelled or used to counterspell, it would have that function. But such is life. so you CAN use a ring of counterspells to counter dispell psionincs? if so it's not written But it does kind of makes since a level 10 single class psion can have +20 on the dispell check so you might as well force him to spend mroe pps to dispell something.
templer10 08-07-07, 04:10 AM	So to side-step the Dispel Psionics issue for a second, I'm looking for some advice on a character idea of mine. The idea occured to me in it's rawest form as 'Barbarian with Speed of Thought'. After considering it, one level of Psychic Warrior looks to be the quickest way to get said speed of thought and if it's long-term enhanced speed your looking for, levels of Monk cant be beat. So I worked up the rough form here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13332088&postcount=1199), complete with portrait (though I think I'll resize it to be smaller, as it might be a bit much for slower connections loading). I'm not quite sure where to go from that basic build though. Featwise, I can increase his ranged ability to take advantage of his improved speed. Or I can aim towards a quick prestige class like Psionic Fist(+2 monk then +1monk/psychic warrior for the last point of BAB), Elocater (Which will eat up all my feats) or Shadowdancer (Also eating up my feats). Heck, I could take Elocater and Shadowdancer, though my BAB will be worse than horrible. Anyone have any thoughts/suggestions? i tried a speed demon build once - didnt really work but that's probably becuase i built him towards melee - if you want max speed go with Barbarian 1/cleric 1/psy fighter 1 give you 30+10(barb)+10(speed of thought)+30(exp retreat off magic domin) - you can continue after for 1 more level of cleric/psy fighter and at ECL 6 take warmind which is generally good for any full BaB fighter class. your BaB isnt the greatest but you can use every expandble in the SRD essentially to compensate.
McJarvis 08-07-07, 07:21 AM	You're right, and that ticks me off even more. That's not a ruling, that's errata. Not his job. Forgive me if I'm wrong-> but isn't he one of the original authors of the 3.5 core books? I'd say it's fair game for him. edit-> Though, he does seem to contradict himself. A psionic power cannot be used as a counterspell, nor is it subject to counterspells. Of course, he then clarifies that dispel magic[as I suppose he intended it, since he wrote it] isn't really a counterspell ever. We could use that to make it not work on instantaneous effects B-)
lonewolf 08-07-07, 08:04 AM	Forgive me if I'm wrong-> but isn't he one of the original authors of the 3.5 core books? I'd say it's fair game for him. That doesnt mean that everything he says makes sense. I remember the one time when he said that you can Polymorph into templated forms. :nonono:
lonewolf 08-07-07, 10:30 AM	There are rules that allow manifesters to manifest powers from another manifesters powers known. Could that kind of service made available for prebuffing via spellcasting service? It should be much cheaper than actually have the other person manifest the power, but I guess not free.
Yitzi 08-07-07, 10:39 AM	i tried a speed demon build once - didnt really work but that's probably becuase i built him towards melee - if you want max speed go with Barbarian 1/cleric 1/psy fighter 1 give you 30+10(barb)+10(speed of thought)+30(exp retreat off magic domin) - you can continue after for 1 more level of cleric/psy fighter and at ECL 6 take warmind which is generally good for any full BaB fighter class. your BaB isnt the greatest but you can use every expandble in the SRD essentially to compensate. Actually, if you want a real speed demon (and are willing to wait for it to get really high speed), go for monk 6/psionic fist x with winged boots, for a total at level 18 of 130' flying (with speed of thought), with the option to use hustle for extra help in catching that pegasus. Actually, Dunerunner is based on something along those lines, but with 1 LA/1 psiwar first (means he doesn't hit 130' until level 20). And if you're going to be a speed demon, you don't want to focus on either melee or ranged, you want to be decent at each-after all, you get to choose which one will be used.
TelinArtho 08-07-07, 10:50 AM	Personally I'm rather fond of Jar'red's speed. 70ft in deinonychus form with the option to cast Longstrider to boost it up to 80ft. Oh and in another level, he can charge through the difficult sections in the forest map too...
MindWandererB 08-07-07, 01:25 PM	so you CAN use a ring of counterspells to counter dispell psionincs? if so it's not written But it does kind of makes since a level 10 single class psion can have +20 on the dispell check so you might as well force him to spend mroe pps to dispell something. No, you still can't. Two reasons: 1) The Ring of Counterspells uses the Counterspell mechanic. According to Skip, Dispel Magic when used as a "counterspell" isn't actually a counterspell--it's dispelling the spell as it's being cast so that it never happens. To do that, you have to actually cast Dispel Magic, which the Ring doesn't do. 2) The Ring of Counterspells is very, very picky. If there's a Dispel Magic in it, it will do nothing to a Greater Dispel or a Lesser Dispel. Dispel Psionics isn't Dispel Magic, so it wouldn't work. @Eamane: Yeah, the speed concept you have works well at low levels, but a little bit higher you suffer from not actually being able to do anything when you get to where you're going. (And FYI, PsiWar isn't quite as efficient a way to get PP as choosing a psionic race--although a human psiwar is the way to go for the feat-happy.)
TelinArtho 08-07-07, 02:48 PM	Does everyone in cycle need to post a training hall entry for changes in order to accommodate the lighting changes? Or are we overlooking that? I guess - I want to make sure I've got the right procedure for it...
MindWandererB 08-07-07, 04:05 PM	The whole reason why I didn't implement the lighting immediately was so that people would have a chance to finish up their cycles and arrange for light if they need it. Everyone's known it was coming for a month now.
TelinArtho 08-07-07, 04:16 PM	Its a fine idea in premise, but not all characters are active all of the time... Fine with me though - even though most of my characters are human, the bulk of them can fudge through a few fights without light (or the chance of no light...)
lonewolf 08-07-07, 04:20 PM	I was positively suprised to find out that I bought a couple of sunrods for Karen back when I created her. :D
lonewolf 08-07-07, 04:28 PM	I need to make some credits for a future project of mine, and thus plan to do some audits of character sheets. So if someone wants me to audit a specific sheet just pm me and I will look into it. Otherwise I will do them randomly.
Erithmu 08-07-07, 04:45 PM	I need to make some credits for a future project of mine, and thus plan to do some audits of character sheets. So if someone wants me to audit a specific sheet just pm me and I will look into it. Otherwise I will do them randomly.Audits of the characters going on campaign would be appreciated by the Campaign Lords ... (Well at least this one.)
TelinArtho 08-07-07, 04:47 PM	Audits of the characters going on campaign would be appreciated by the Campaign Lords ... (Well at least this one.) I'll second that.
lonewolf 08-07-07, 10:27 PM	Short question: In the monster description of the Zelkhut there is following noted: Due to its centaur-like construction, a zelekhut qualifies for feats as if it had the Mounted Combat feat. Can I assume that this also counts for the Centaur itself, despite the centaur lacks this sentence in his description?
TelinArtho 08-07-07, 11:03 PM	Yes - this is a question that you should be able to look up in the court decisions (I think...). In any case - yes a Centaur is "centaur-like"
waywreth 08-08-07, 08:54 AM	Can you pay the basic cost for spellcasting service - 10 gp x the Spell's level x the Casterlevel the spell should have, so you can craft something that requires a spell not on your caster list? Thanks,
lonewolf 08-08-07, 08:57 AM	There are rules that allow manifesters to manifest powers from another manifesters powers known. Could that kind of service made available for prebuffing via spellcasting service? It should be much cheaper than actually have the other person manifest the power, but I guess not free. :bump:
Erithmu 08-08-07, 09:24 AM	Can you pay the basic cost for spellcasting service - 10 gp x the Spell's level x the Casterlevel the spell should have, so you can craft something that requires a spell not on your caster list? Thanks,No ... The CoCo does not have/use rules for cooperative crafting. You can't use your cohort to provide the spell either.
Salrantol 08-08-07, 09:51 AM	Would barbarian fast movement and ranger simple variant fast movement stack?
templer10 08-08-07, 10:17 AM	Would barbarian fast movement and ranger simple variant fast movement stack? no - the bonus comes from the ability so they dont stack - it even say so if i recall correctly.
Erithmu 08-08-07, 10:18 AM	Would barbarian fast movement and ranger simple variant fast movement stack?No, but not for the reason your probably thinking. You can't take the ranger simple variant and Barb levels together. The ranger fast movement 'IS' the Barb fast movement. One of the side rules about the variant features is that you can't take levels in a class that offers the same features. ex: Torel can't take monk levels or ranger levels due to his variant druid. Also Re: Vandelar's audit: His links should redirect automatically, the problem is more to do that most of his earlier fights are now in archives (Battles of Gladius I) and they will not display. Assume that any links that don't work, are in archives and that the xp and gp listed is correct.
hogarth 08-08-07, 10:49 AM	One more thing about Vandelar's audit: Universal Solvent is a single-use item with a CL of 20 (unless it's self-crafted) which is not available to an ECL 12 character without credits. At least that's what the rules say. I don't think it's worth a separate prison violation, so you can throw it in with the audit.
Salrantol 08-08-07, 11:28 AM	No, but not for the reason your probably thinking. You can't take the ranger simple variant and Barb levels together. The ranger fast movement 'IS' the Barb fast movement. One of the side rules about the variant features is that you can't take levels in a class that offers the same features.I had thought that too, but I can't find that rule in any SRDs including UA anymore. Can you find it?
Erithmu 08-08-07, 11:36 AM	I had thought that too, but I can't find that rule in any SRDs including UA anymore. Can you find it?I can't find it ... but we house ruled it ... it is in the variant feature section of the rules.
SoulLord 08-08-07, 12:20 PM	One more thing about Vandelar's audit: Universal Solvent is a single-use item with a CL of 20 (unless it's self-crafted) which is not available to an ECL 12 character without credits. At least that's what the rules say. I don't think it's worth a separate prison violation, so you can throw it in with the audit. Really? I always considerede to be an expendable never used it though so I'll be glad to throw that dead weight aside.
Abyssal Stalker 08-08-07, 12:24 PM	If there is someone who needs a (mini)questlord/missionlord - I'm available. One or two max - I need to scracth up some credits but I don't have too much spare time on my hands... :bump: I'll just bump this if there is someone who needs a QL this week...
waywreth 08-08-07, 12:52 PM	More questions... Any psionic powers that prevent possession? Can't find any myself. Do we have any rules about learning new powers? The current rules require the expenditure of xp (noted below for convenience). Could we spend gold instead or something? You can copy spells from another persons book... A psion also can research a power independently, duplicating an existing power or creating an entirely new one. If characters are allowed to develop new powers, use these guidelines to handle the situation. Any kind of manifester can create a new power. The research involved requires access to a retreat conducive to uninterrupted meditation. Research involves an expenditure of 200 XP per week and takes one week per level of the power. At the end of that time, the character makes a Psicraft check (DC 10 + spell level). If that check succeeds, the character learns the new power if her research produced a viable power. If the check fails, the character must go through the research process again if she wants to keep trying.
lonewolf 08-08-07, 12:56 PM	Since an idea about researching new spells was shot down recently, I doubt that researching new psionic powers will be allowed anytime soon.
hogarth 08-08-07, 01:00 PM	Do we have any rules about learning new powers? The current rules require the expenditure of xp (noted below for convenience). Could we spend gold instead or something? You can copy spells from another persons book... It was discussed and rejected a while ago. You can try reviving the topic in the Council, of course.
Vathelokai 08-08-07, 07:36 PM	122 (15 members & 107 guests)Am I reading this right!?
Zevox 08-08-07, 08:23 PM	Given I'm getting this: 132 (16 members & 116 guests) ...its either and error with the forums themselves, or something caused a lot of people to find this place. Did someone put a link someplace popular? Zevox
Eamane 08-08-07, 09:05 PM	So... I've got a basic question. How does one determine the maximum CR for an individual ally? The allies section(s) mention this cap, moreover it is a required part of the default character sheet (along with maximum ECL per ally)... But nothing tells me how to determine this. The formula for maximum CA is simple enough: Your ECL - 2. The formula to determine the CA of allies is also kind of simple enough. CA/ECL + Mods as listed.. But CA/ECL != CR, or the sheet would just say CA... right? I know from observation that the maximum CR for someone at level 3 is 1, but I don't know why/when that'll increase... can someone shed some light on this (and then hopefully, update the rules so its not quite so confusing?)
Zevox 08-08-07, 09:08 PM	So... I've got a basic question. How does one determine the maximum CR for an individual ally? The allies section(s) mention this cap, moreover it is a required part of the default character sheet (along with maximum ECL per ally)... But nothing tells me how to determine this. The formula for maximum CA is simple enough: Your ECL - 2. The formula to determine the CA of allies is also kind of simple enough. CA/ECL + Mods as listed.. But CA/ECL != CR, or the sheet would just say CA... right? I know from observation that the maximum CR for someone at level 3 is 1, but I don't know why/when that'll increase... can someone shed some light on this (and then hopefully, update the rules so its not quite so confusing?) The maximum CR of an ally without an LA is your ECL-4 or 1, whichever is higher. Zevox
TelinArtho 08-08-07, 11:48 PM	1 CAP: Join Guild Campaign |=> Aerryl Nalladar (MindWandererB, ECL 11) |=> "The Church of Denth - Group 2" Umm - TLT might want to reconsider their choice... Besthirah is slated for that group - Aerryl was not coming along (and is currently on another mission...)
MindWandererB 08-09-07, 01:01 AM	Umm - TLT might want to reconsider their choice... Besthirah is slated for that group - Aerryl was not coming along (and is currently on another mission...) Oops... typo. Zevox, could you fix that when you get a chance?
TheMagister 08-09-07, 01:04 AM	Yeah, the CAPs. I thought about spending a CAP on Sdentch, but she's not TECHNICALLY able to join the guild at the moment. Our members leveled up in conjunction and we're out of Fancy Bedrooms. So she's just coming along in a personal mein, which I'm fine with.
Abyssal Stalker 08-09-07, 02:29 AM	I have a question about custom items / updating existing ones. I bought Jonathon gauntlets of ogre power +2. That time I didn't realize that I should've gotten him a belt of giant strength +2 instead of the gauntlets. I asked to change the item in the training hall - but Sauro rejected my request. The reason I wanted to do this is that I want Jonathon to have gloves of dexterity +N. I am considering the following option: 1. I will update the gauntlets to +4 at some point. Does this cost credits? I'm guessing 5... 2. I will purchase a belt of dexterity +2. How many credits? I'm guessing 5... Am I getting this right?
Abyssal Stalker 08-09-07, 02:31 AM	163 (22 members & 141 guests)..
Zevox 08-09-07, 02:41 AM	I have a question about custom items / updating existing ones. I bought Jonathon gauntlets of ogre power +2. That time I didn't realize that I should've gotten him a belt of giant strength +2 instead of the gauntlets. I asked to change the item in the training hall - but Sauro rejected my request. The reason I wanted to do this is that I want Jonathon to have gloves of dexterity +N. I am considering the following option: 1. I will update the gauntlets to +4 at some point. Does this cost credits? I'm guessing 5... 2. I will purchase a belt of dexterity +2. How many credits? I'm guessing 5... Am I getting this right? Either one would work for 5 credits, yep. Zevox
Callix 08-09-07, 07:06 AM	How do guild missions work? How may activations, how long, and how often are the most crucial bits of info, but a full explanation would be nice. Sorry If I've missed some obvious place to look, but I can't find it.
lonewolf 08-09-07, 07:54 AM	How do guild missions work? How may activations, how long, and how often are the most crucial bits of info, but a full explanation would be nice. Sorry If I've missed some obvious place to look, but I can't find it. Its in the Guild Hall. link
SoulLord 08-09-07, 01:35 PM	Quick question are we allowed to use the Gate spell on campaigns?
Eamane 08-09-07, 06:30 PM	While I understand that for balance reasons, Charm Person (and it's twin, Psionic Charm) are not supposed to be save-or-die spells, so you cant use them to ask someone to leave the arena to go grab you a drink... But at what point does mental domination become a valid 'I win' tactic? Spell/power level 2, with things like Aversion (Give them an aversion to the arena/the material the arena is made out of, so they try to leave)? Spell/power level 3, with Suggestion (Be a chap and go get my glasses from my room will you? I'll give you three gold pieces.)? As a side note, you also have the 'don't do anything' spell/powers which are already save or die spells at Spell level 2 (Hold Person, Hideous Laughter, etc). While all my current characters are of the rather direct 'deal damage to kill, rar' mentality, I'm interested in the viability of these other means. Though of course, they are all contingent on my opponent failing a will save, which is fine.
MindWandererB 08-09-07, 07:12 PM	While I understand that for balance reasons, Charm Person (and it's twin, Psionic Charm) are not supposed to be save-or-die spells, so you cant use them to ask someone to leave the arena to go grab you a drink... But at what point does mental domination become a valid 'I win' tactic? Spell/power level 2, with things like Aversion (Give them an aversion to the arena/the material the arena is made out of, so they try to leave)? Spell/power level 3, with Suggestion (Be a chap and go get my glasses from my room will you? I'll give you three gold pieces.)? As a side note, you also have the 'don't do anything' spell/powers which are already save or die spells at Spell level 2 (Hold Person, Hideous Laughter, etc). While all my current characters are of the rather direct 'deal damage to kill, rar' mentality, I'm interested in the viability of these other means. Though of course, they are all contingent on my opponent failing a will save, which is fine. Most of the effects you cite have anti-suicide clauses. Since leaving the arena or surrendering is essentially suicide in our format, those spells can't do that. It has nothing to do with the level of the spell, it has to do with the way it works. There is a secondary issue, that of flexibility. I've seen Charm Person used to turn an FFA into a 2-on-1, resulting in the charmer's victory. If you had the choice between a spell that could kill, or a spell that could kill or turn opponents to your side, which would you choose? If you want save-or-die effects, go with what's out there. Clear-cut save-or-die effects start at spell level 4 (Phantasmal Killer); effects that can cripple an opponent into uselessness, to varying degrees and with various counters, range all the way down to 1st (Hold Person, Blindness, Sleep).
Vathelokai 08-09-07, 09:12 PM	As a side note, I'm researching exactly how far the charm/dominate stuff can go. For example, charm person makes someone friendly. Hypnotism increases attitude by two steps. Would someone 'above' helpful throw a fight for you? Helpful - Will take risks to help you - Protect, back up, heal, aidSuggestion has the wording of 'obviously harmful' actions. Would poison in a potion of healing bottle be obvious? Can you suggest to stop with the violence and settle things via a game of chess? Anyway, I'm compiling the possibilities in what spare time I have, and will be taking it to the courtroom.
hogarth 08-09-07, 10:48 PM	Is there something wrong with the server? I'm having trouble loading anything. I tried turning off javascript and images and it loads...barely. EDIT: There's a sticky message explaining it now.
Vathelokai 08-09-07, 10:57 PM	Not effecting or affecting me.
Macbrea 08-10-07, 09:47 AM	Hmm, getting ready to head to gencon.. Wonder if I should activate Razorfang with statement use default tactics. :P Since, 80% of the time those have been his tactics.
templer10 08-10-07, 09:50 AM	Hmm, getting ready to head to gencon.. Wonder if I should activate Razorfang with statement use default tactics. :P Since, 80% of the time those have been his tactics. Well it's not like you CARE of you win or lose - it's bascily free xp for you (and the other guy).
Macbrea 08-10-07, 10:21 AM	Well it's not like you CARE of you win or lose - it's bascily free xp for you (and the other guy). Heh.. oddly, since he has leveled. He has won more then he has lost with those tactics. Now, I agree last week was a bit wanky and probably should have been a loss.
waywreth 08-10-07, 11:02 AM	Was just flipping thru to see how Gaston was doing compared to his peers, and I came across a few interesting facts - Total number of matches - Kracknol - 21 won, 13 lost Izumi - 11 won, 22 lost (tie) Gaston - 25 won, 8 lost (tie) Aerryl - 19 won, 12 lost Most wins - Gaston - 25 wins Leif - 23 wins Vandelar the Red - 19 wins Winning Percentage (7th level or higher) - Longshot - 10 won, 0 lost Ceilia Durrol - 17 won, 1 lost Elrick Flamebrother - 14 won, 1 lost
hogarth 08-10-07, 11:16 AM	Winning Percentage (7th level or higher) - Longshot - 10 won, 0 lost Ceilia Durrol - 17 won, 1 lost Reginald Molehusband - 12 won, 1 lost You missed Elrick Flamebrother - 14 won, 1 lost.
waywreth 08-10-07, 11:24 AM	So, do you still have to MQ (or quest) for a cohort if you take the leadership feat? And, do we use the standard rules for a cohort gaining xp, or some alternative? Gaston has a feat at 12, and I was thinking on getting a cleric cohort. @Hogarth - Fixed that, thanks
Vathelokai 08-10-07, 11:39 AM	Was just flipping thru to see how Gaston was doing compared to his peers, and I came across a few interesting facts - Total number of matches - Kracknol - 21 won, 13 lost Izumi - 11 won, 22 lost (tie) Gaston - 25 won, 8 lost (tie) Aerryl - 19 won, 12 lost Most wins - Gaston - 25 wins Leif - 23 wins Vandelar the Red - 19 wins Winning Percentage (7th level or higher) - Longshot - 10 won, 0 lost Ceilia Durrol - 17 won, 1 lost Elrick Flamebrother - 14 won, 1 lost Hey, could you pm that to me so I can stick it in the newspaper?
Zevox 08-10-07, 11:41 AM	So, do you still have to MQ (or quest) for a cohort if you take the leadership feat? And, do we use the standard rules for a cohort gaining xp, or some alternative? Gaston has a feat at 12, and I was thinking on getting a cleric cohort. @Hogarth - Fixed that, thanks MQ/Quest is required, but you can pay 3 credits to skip that. And the cohort is automatically leveled up to maximum level your leadership score can get them to (unless you choose to leave them at a lower one voluntarily), up to of course a maximum of your ECL-2. Zevox
Abyssal Stalker 08-10-07, 11:42 AM	So, do you still have to MQ (or quest) for a cohort if you take the leadership feat? And, do we use the standard rules for a cohort gaining xp, or some alternative? Gaston has a feat at 12, and I was thinking on getting a cleric cohort. @Hogarth - Fixed that, thanks Yes, that's the rules. I can run you one if you want. EDIT: OOPS. (check above)
Sjiggie 08-10-07, 11:44 AM	Another question about Valanthe's Cohort. He levelled in Mitza's Campaign to ECL 6 and took leadership as his 6th level feat now Mitza and I where working on introducing his Cohort in the campaign but now it got terminated by pitlords. Is Valanthe's Cohort available in the Arena or does he need a MQ for it/pay 3 credits to skip the MQ? Thanks Sjiggie
templer10 08-10-07, 11:45 AM	hey - i was wondering - since we are going to have ECL 11 druids pretty soon - how is the treant creted by the liveoak handled - as just a regular old spell with long duration?
waywreth 08-10-07, 12:02 PM	Yes, that's the rules. I can run you one if you want. EDIT: OOPS. (check above) Sure, I'll give a MQ a shot for next week if you're still interested in running it. If I lose, I can always pay the 3 credits. @Zevox - Thanks for the info.
Abyssal Stalker 08-10-07, 12:08 PM	OK. Just mark me on your title line. PM me if you have some ideas - I need at least information on your cohort to get something to work with.
hogarth 08-10-07, 12:20 PM	hey - i was wondering - since we are going to have ECL 11 druids pretty soon - how is the treant creted by the liveoak handled - as just a regular old spell with long duration? Any prebuffed ally (like a pseudo-treant created via Liveoak) counts against your list of allies. If you cast it during combat (unlikely with a 10 minute casting time), then it wouldn't count against your allies for that battle. I imagine you can get the required oak tree for free without having to pay or miniquest for it. Of course, MWB doesn't agree that sand should be free, so maybe not. ;)
Zevox 08-10-07, 12:47 PM	Okay then, with the Denth Campaigns about to start, I need to put the finishing touches on Nimbus. I've got the plan I'm going to go with decided upon (Psychic Warrior 1/Cleric 1/3 Dragon HD/War Mind 4), but some of the specifics I'm still not sure about. For instance, I could transfer some of his skills from spot/listen for UMD (since he has Blindsense anyway), but I'm not sure how useful that would be, especially since he can't spare the skill points to get the skills that give synergy bonuses to that for scrolls (and wouldn't need it with most wands, since all wizard and cleric spells are on his spell list as a Dragon). Items are another thing I'm not sure on. I rather wanted to get him a Wand of MM at CL 9 so he had a potent ranged threat, but with the present items I've purchased he just doesn't have the cash to spare. I suppose I could see if Telin will drop one somewhere in the early stages of the campaign as part of his rewards, but it'd be nice to have it to begin with. Then theres the issue of expendables - what he has now would be great for a 3-Fight-Cycle, but might result in him running out of some quickly in the campaign, so I'm not sure if I shouldn't swap some around to get him more expansion tattoos. And lastly, I'm not sure if his resist energy wand is good enough to overcome his vulnerability issue. Mayhaps a wand of protection from energy would be a better choice? Ranger-crafted they're only spell level 2, but hes still short on cash to get it at a decent CL I fear. @ MWB - Speaking of this, whats up with my credits? It says I have 38, but I know I had 37 last week, and theres no way I lost six credits on anything in the last week. Zevox
lonewolf 08-10-07, 01:53 PM	What is the latest ruling on equipment for incorporeal monsters? Unbodied have Treasure: half standard
Hirumajoe 08-10-07, 01:57 PM	What is the latest ruling on equipment for incorporeal monsters? Unbodied have Treasure: half standard Pretty much anything they can carry I would imagine. Which would be limited to Ghost Touch weapons and armor. As for general equipment, they can't wear it, but I suppose they could telekinesis it along... Unless they're a Psion Uncarnate, at which point they have special rules built into the class for handling that.
TheMagister 08-10-07, 02:09 PM	Quick question: Can a gladiator spend his/her cash mid-cycle if they're going on campaign? (Sdentch has 7500 gp just SITTIN' there, and some extra expendables would be good.)
lonewolf 08-10-07, 02:15 PM	Quick question: Can a gladiator spend his/her cash mid-cycle if they're going on campaign? (Sdentch has 7500 gp just SITTIN' there, and some extra expendables would be good.) IMHO: You cannot buy anything midcycle, but if the Campaignlord agrees you could by something at the start of the campaign...
hogarth 08-10-07, 02:26 PM	Pretty much anything they can carry I would imagine. Which would be limited to Ghost Touch weapons and armor. As for general equipment, they can't wear it, but I suppose they could telekinesis it along... Unless they're a Psion Uncarnate, at which point they have special rules built into the class for handling that. I was thinking about this recently (I was muling over the idea of starting a campaign with an Unbodied as one of the encounters). Personally, I would expand the "equipment" list to permanent spells or spells made permanent via Permanency (Resistance, Magic Fang, etc.) in the case of incorporeal creatures (although it's technically against the guidelines).
MindWandererB 08-10-07, 02:44 PM	Was just flipping thru to see how Gaston was doing compared to his peers, and I came across a few interesting facts - Total number of matches - Kracknol - 21 won, 13 lost Izumi - 11 won, 22 lost (tie) Gaston - 25 won, 8 lost (tie) Aerryl - 19 won, 12 lost Most wins - Gaston - 25 wins Leif - 23 wins Vandelar the Red - 19 wins Winning Percentage (7th level or higher) - Longshot - 10 won, 0 lost Ceilia Durrol - 17 won, 1 lost Elrick Flamebrother - 14 won, 1 lostKervan is in the running for most fights (13 wins, 18 losses, 31 total, same as Aerryl), and Brilf actually leads that pack at 19 wins, 16 losses = 35 fights. Izumi's in there, too (11 wins, 22 losses = 33)Any prebuffed ally (like a pseudo-treant created via Liveoak) counts against your list of allies. If you cast it during combat (unlikely with a 10 minute casting time), then it wouldn't count against your allies for that battle. I imagine you can get the required oak tree for free without having to pay or miniquest for it. Of course, MWB doesn't agree that sand should be free, so maybe not. ;)Pshaw. The sand is free. It's the bag is comes in that isn't. I had originally dismissed that spell as useless because it had to be close to your dwelling--but now I see that it can walk around as much as it wants, and there's no limit on how long it can be active. That's kind of stupid. But hogarth has it right.@ MWB - Speaking of this, whats up with my credits? It says I have 38, but I know I had 37 last week, and theres no way I lost six credits on anything in the last week.Pretty much, yeah. You earned six this week (4 fight, 1 admin, 1 guild) and lost 5 (two late fights, one of them multiplayer).What is the latest ruling on equipment for incorporeal monsters? Unbodied have Treasure: half standardIt's in the Rules thread now. Creatures with "none" get nothing, but creatures with anything other than "none" get the flat value for their CR (as "standard" was before this change).
Zevox 08-10-07, 03:34 PM	Pretty much, yeah. You earned six this week (4 fight, 1 admin, 1 guild) and lost 5 (two late fights, one of them multiplayer). *blinks* What? Since when do we lose that many credits on late fights? I though you only lost the credits for the fight if it didn't go into the next week, which would mean I'd lose 3 credits, not five! Zevox
TelinArtho 08-10-07, 03:47 PM	Quick question: Can a gladiator spend his/her cash mid-cycle if they're going on campaign? (Sdentch has 7500 gp just SITTIN' there, and some extra expendables would be good.) The campaign starts in Gladius so I have no problem with you purchasing a few things before you go.
MindWandererB 08-10-07, 04:05 PM	*blinks* What? Since when do we lose that many credits on late fights? I though you only lost the credits for the fight if it didn't go into the next week, which would mean I'd lose 3 credits, not five! Zevox Here's the rule: There is a deadline at which time your assigned fight must be posted on the fights thread, in proper shape. This deadline is Tuesday 9 PM GMT (Western European Time; click here to see Time Zones). If you do not post your fight before that time is up, you lose the credit you received for running the fight plus you get a negative credit and your fight is free for the taking. You are still encouraged to post the fight because there is still more than a day before the new pairings are being rolled (Wednesday 9 PM GMT). If you don't post the fight at all 2 hours before the next pairings, you lose another credit. In this case, your fight will be reassigned to another pitlord who runs it within the new week. Note that late fight will be marked behind your name.That's the way it's been the whole time I've been here. (In fact, I need to update that Wednesday deadline--it hasn't been GMT for a long time.)
Hirumajoe 08-10-07, 06:33 PM	So, Valen Sky has leveled to ECL 11 and has 16,000 gp burning a hole in his pocket. And I realize I don't really have plan for him post ECL 10. At least not equipment wise. I had this vague notion of taking him Shadow Dancer 1/Slayer 6 (for Cerebral Blind)/Shadow Dancer 2 (for Evasion, Uncanny Dodge and Darkvision)/Slayer 10 and then finish off with Psion 6. For some kind of inefficient Fighter/Mage/Rogue type build. But I wasn't actually expecting to get there. :) And I really am at a loss for what I should be grabbing. He's already got good boots (speed). He's got a reasonably hefty +1 Suppressing main weapon and a +1 secondary bow. I'm tempted grab some + move silently on his armor, to get his MS to match his hide skill (+17 and +22 respectively), but that seems kinda of minor. What big ticket items am I forgetting that no adventurer should be without? I could I suppose just keep increasing the basics. +2 -> +3 armor (5,000), +2 -> +3 Resistance cloak (5,000), and +1-> +2 ring of deflection (6,000). Or maybe something to help his unenhanced archery form? +1 to +3 bow upgrade could be good. Since he has to rely on that when up against casters with dispel magic. Although in that case, +4 Belt of Giant strength should be gotten first, since he needs Animal Affinity - Strength to use his magic bow properly... Any and all thoughts appreciated.
hogarth 08-10-07, 06:44 PM	What big ticket items am I forgetting that no adventurer should be without? A Bronze Griffon. Everyone needs to get a Bronze Griffon. They're great for grappling, disarming, sundering and just plain soakin' up damage. And if it dies, you can still use it again!
Hirumajoe 08-10-07, 08:53 PM	A Bronze Griffon. Everyone needs to get a Bronze Griffon. They're great for grappling, disarming, sundering and just plain soakin' up damage. And if it dies, you can still use it again! At ECL 11? I don't know, Griffon stats at that level just don't impress me much. The low AC means it will get hit fairly easily. Valen I'm pretty sure could eliminate it in a single round (assuming the first hit doesn't actually supress the magic item, deactivating it for 1d4 rounds, and using up one use of the thing). It just feels like you'd be spending 10,000 gp on an item which just gets weaker and weaker as you level up. Plus, it takes a standard action to activate. And Valen already has too long of a buff sequence... (Although Hide in plain sight should help with that slightly.)
hogarth 08-10-07, 09:11 PM	At ECL 11? I don't know, Griffon stats at that level just don't impress me much. The low AC means it will get hit fairly easily. Valen I'm pretty sure could eliminate it in a single round (assuming the first hit doesn't actually supress the magic item, deactivating it for 1d4 rounds, and using up one use of the thing). You might disagree, but I'd rather have a set of attacks going against something disposable than against myself. It's all about wasting your opponent's time and effort on countering it (instead of you) while you do something productive. Make those clerics and psions cast Freedom of Movement! Make that wizard waste a Dispel Magic (or two) dispelling it instead of you! Sunder bows, quivers of arrows, spell component pouches, holy symbols, etc. while you go to town doing some real damage! EDIT: Also note that Quartz the psicrystal can activate it, so it wouldn't cost an action.
lonewolf 08-10-07, 10:03 PM	Comments on my newest creation Therador Goldscale are welcome. It will take some time for me to collect the credits necessary to activate him though.
SauroGrenom 08-10-07, 10:13 PM	If you have a SLA that's a spell with multiple spell levels (like 2nd level wizard and 3rd level cleric), does it count as a 2nd level or 3rd level spell effect?
lonewolf 08-10-07, 10:16 PM	A monsters spell-like abilities are presumed to be sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger in that order. here you are.
Hirumajoe 08-10-07, 11:07 PM	Comments on my newest creation Therador Goldscale are welcome. It will take some time for me to collect the credits necessary to activate him though. Ooh... Someone is finally putting together a half-dragon centaur. I've been mulling the idea for ages, but never had the credits (or the time). Note, you don't get stat advancement for your race's base HD. So no +1 to Strength for your 4 Centaur HD. Your Centaur is proficient with all Simple Weapons, the Longsword, and the Longbow. Not with Lance, because its not mentioned in Centaur entry, and thus he should take a non-proficiency penalty with it. I'll also note, at ECL 9 you're already seeing characters with Freedom of Movement, so I'm not sure how much use you'll see with the Gloves of Titan's Grip (especially when you're already a fairly strong grappler). Feels like you should be able to do something better with 14,000 gp. Like boots of Speed. Haste has to be good, right? Suggestion: Consider what is more important, having a high charge/dive multiplier or actually being able to get the charge off. If the later is more important, than I'd suggest Run and Fleet of Foot feats be prioritized over Ride-by-Attack and Spirited Charge. At some point you'll also want to get Freedom of Movement somehow (but you probably already know that). Curious, you planning on going the Psychic Warrior route with him for Psionic Lion's Charge (and hustle)? Edit: Anyone else amused by his encumbrance limits? :)
lonewolf 08-10-07, 11:50 PM	I was thinking of going Ranger1/Telepath1/Slayer9 Telepath mainly for the skill list to let me pull of both ambush and scout skill packages at ECL11. @lance: thats a bummer. I get proficiency with it next level, but I may sell the lance for now and rely on my natural weapons. I think I will keep the gloves. While he is a good grappler without them, he is by no means unbeatable. With the gloves there is little chance escaping him, except Freedom of Movement. Run&Fleet of foot is a nice Idea. I keep that in mind. And yeah. Those encumbrance limits are kinda amusing :rolleyes:
Vathelokai 08-11-07, 12:04 AM	Comments on my newest creation Therador Goldscale are welcome. It will take some time for me to collect the credits necessary to activate him though. Couldn't resist... http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a327/Vathelokai/8bit-theatre/centaur-dragon.jpg
Rauul 08-11-07, 02:28 AM	Couldn't resist... http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a327/Vathelokai/8bit-theatre/centaur-dragon.jpg thats just wrong... i love it
Rauul 08-11-07, 02:29 PM	one complaint... logging in 3 times to post a battle is ANNOYING!!!!!!!
SauroGrenom 08-11-07, 02:40 PM	I keep seeing weard things. Like when I delete things from my PM box, the list still shows them. But if I click on the "message" the boards tells me it's deleted. Also there was a PM that didn't appear in my inbox for about a day after it was sent. And the little bold text in the top right of the forum that describes the status of my PM box didn't get bolded during that time.
Zevox 08-11-07, 04:04 PM	I keep seeing weard things. Like when I delete things from my PM box, the list still shows them. But if I click on the "message" the boards tells me it's deleted. Also there was a PM that didn't appear in my inbox for about a day after it was sent. And the little bold text in the top right of the forum that describes the status of my PM box didn't get bolded during that time. I've been having things like that go on for weeks. It seems as though the boards just freeze up then - folks are still posting and whatnot, but the only new thing that displays is posts, and even then the threads don't update with a new post indicator and don't recognize them if you try to quote them. Weird. Zevox
Sjiggie 08-11-07, 04:51 PM	Another question about Valanthe's Cohort. He levelled in Mitza's Campaign to ECL 6 and took leadership as his 6th level feat now Mitza and I where working on introducing his Cohort in the campaign but now it got terminated by pitlords. Is Valanthe's Cohort available in the Arena or does he need a MQ for it/pay 3 credits to skip the MQ? Thanks Sjiggie Can somebody give an answer to this please? How does it come that I always feel that nobody wants to answer my questions;)
templer10 08-11-07, 05:15 PM	I have a theoretical question - a creature with the half dragon templete gets 2 claw attacks - now i know that the templeted creature gets those attacks even if the base creature dont usaully have hands or claws or some such - becuase they become claws - but could the new creature use those claws to manipulate objects if they before couldnt? iam asking becuase unless my memory is wrong dragons CAN manipulate objects with their claws and i wonder if half dragons can.
MindWandererB 08-11-07, 05:38 PM	Can somebody give an answer to this please? How does it come that I always feel that nobody wants to answer my questions;)He'll need the quest. Especially since there was only one fight in the campaign.I have a theoretical question - a creature with the half dragon templete gets 2 claw attacks - now i know that the templeted creature gets those attacks even if the base creature dont usaully have hands or claws or some such - becuase they become claws - but could the new creature use those claws to manipulate objects if they before couldnt? iam asking becuase unless my memory is wrong dragons CAN manipulate objects with their claws and i wonder if half dragons can.I would assume so, yes.
Erithmu 08-11-07, 08:55 PM	Gosh I feel bad just typing this ... Aug 19-Dec 19: FULL ACTIVITY: Crafting wk (1/19) I hope it is implied that this falls under the 'see sheet' option...
Zevox 08-11-07, 09:49 PM	Gosh I feel bad just typing this ... Aug 19-Dec 19: FULL ACTIVITY: Crafting wk (1/19) I hope it is implied that this falls under the 'see sheet' option... Ouch... :eek: I like your note at the top of his sheet though :D . Zevox
NiQil 08-12-07, 12:10 AM	Gosh I feel bad just typing this ... Aug 19-Dec 19: FULL ACTIVITY: Crafting wk (1/19) I hope it is implied that this falls under the 'see sheet' option... Maybe you should come lend your voice to the Council about changing the crafting rules....I made some suggestions that, if adopted, could probably cut that time in more than three quarters....
Rauul 08-12-07, 12:19 AM	Gosh I feel bad just typing this ... Aug 19-Dec 19: FULL ACTIVITY: Crafting wk (1/19) I hope it is implied that this falls under the 'see sheet' option... Good lord... why not just buy some of it..
MindWandererB 08-12-07, 01:21 AM	Gosh I feel bad just typing this ... Aug 19-Dec 19: FULL ACTIVITY: Crafting wk (1/19) I hope it is implied that this falls under the 'see sheet' option... Eep... just remember to keep tabs on the pairings post every week. There's a pretty significant chance that either 1) you'll forget to update the date for a week, 2) I'll forget to update the week number, or 3) I'll forget to stop at 19.
Erithmu 08-12-07, 01:42 AM	Ouch... :eek: I like your note at the top of his sheet though :D . ZevoxConsidering the date that I can activate him ... I think it is very appropriate. Maybe you should come lend your voice to the Council about changing the crafting rules....I made some suggestions that, if adopted, could probably cut that time in more than three quarters....Posted my position ... I'll try to be active in that conversation.
Gladius_News_Network 08-12-07, 02:38 AM	Yeah, that's right. We're back in print.
Erithmu 08-12-07, 12:23 PM	Question: What was decided regarding selling spellbooks? Is it an allowed option?
Vathelokai 08-12-07, 12:36 PM	Question: What was decided regarding selling spellbooks? Is it an allowed option? I've done it a couple times. Did I miss a debate on it? Captured spellbooks can be sold for a gp amount equal to one-half the cost of purchasing and inscribing the spells within (that is, one-half of 100 gp per page of spells). A spellbook entirely filled with spells (that is, with one hundred pages of spells inscribed in it) is worth 5,000 gp. Of course, there's a loop hole with selling blessed books. That shouldn't be allowed.
Eamane 08-12-07, 02:22 PM	What would be a good set of domains for a Mystic Theurge? Since I'll have actual levels of wizard, I shouldn't need Magic. I was thinking Darkness and Travel; or possibly Madness (Cant get enough bonus spells!) and Travel. I was also thinking of making it a tiefling or aasimar, so I can use alter-self awesomeness to help carry it through low levels (with the help of a wand of MM, o'course.) It'll delay entry to Theurge by a level, but wouldn't the bonus be worth it?
templer10 08-12-07, 02:26 PM	What would be a good set of domains for a Mystic Theurge? Since I'll have actual levels of wizard, I shouldn't need Magic. I was thinking Darkness and Travel; or possibly Madness (Cant get enough bonus spells!) and Travel. I was also thinking of making it a tiefling or aasimar, so I can use alter-self awesomeness to help carry it through low levels (with the help of a wand of MM, o'course.) It'll delay entry to Theurge by a level, but wouldn't the bonus be worth it? Dont know about domains - But assimar seems to me not worth it MT has a low enough caster level and spell acess as is but dealying it by one more seems like a bad idia.
Vathelokai 08-12-07, 03:06 PM	With the COCO house rules on shapeshifting, you'll need a lot of knowledge ranks. Can be done, but I don't recommend it unless you're going to grab polymorph later as well. Mephit shapeshifting is only a real advantage on rare occasions. Getting a light horse can do you just as well in low levels; wands don't require a concentration check to use. Even with no ranks in ride, a combination of protection from arrows and magic missile wand is tough to beat. Using expid retreat and obscuring mist to create the terms of your own battlefield works well too. As for domains Darkness: it's just awsome. Travel: Personaly I think it's over-rated. It's good for escaping black tentacles and webs (note, doesn't work against grapples), but not much else. Especially since you're getting freedom of movement later. Destruction: use that smite on shocking grasp! Madness: don't forget your spot, listen, etc checks will be in the basement. Get a good familiar. Death or Repose: can be good if your going for high cleric levels. Scalykind: not good at first, but you get some nice druid spells at higher lv. Weather: same as skalykind: wands of call lightning aren't bad
MindWandererB 08-12-07, 03:19 PM	What would be a good set of domains for a Mystic Theurge? Since I'll have actual levels of wizard, I shouldn't need Magic. I was thinking Darkness and Travel; or possibly Madness (Cant get enough bonus spells!) and Travel. I was also thinking of making it a tiefling or aasimar, so I can use alter-self awesomeness to help carry it through low levels (with the help of a wand of MM, o'course.) It'll delay entry to Theurge by a level, but wouldn't the bonus be worth it? It's a trade-off. Alter Self (and polymorph) are potent when used by outsiders, but you're already taking a CL hit. Travel, as you say, is a good choice. Darkness is less valuable when you have wizard levels. Madness would make for an interesting choice--you would be able to use your cleric spells as the big save-or-die effects and your wizard spells for utility and other save-less effects. There are a few other oddball choices--if you go sorc rather than wizard (goes well with aasimar), Charm could ne nice.
Eamane 08-12-07, 04:06 PM	Familiars can deliver touch spells gained from classes other than that which grants the familiar... right? I.E: Hawk familiar from Wizard delivering Inflict spells from Cleric. With a duration of 2 rounds Hold Person is more effective than Spiritual Weapon, right? (Of course, I can have scrolls so I'll have access to both..) Need to get my CL up to improve those round/level effects, heh.
templer10 08-12-07, 04:11 PM	Familiars can deliver touch spells gained from classes other than that which grants the familiar... right? I.E: Hawk familiar from Wizard delivering Inflict spells from Cleric. With a duration of 2 rounds Hold Person is more effective than Spiritual Weapon, right? (Of course, I can have scrolls so I'll have access to both..) Need to get my CL up to improve those round/level effects, heh. Hold person is overrated IMHO unless you have a cohort or some other way of delivering a CDG in teh same round as the hold otherwise the other guy as at least 2 attempts at the will save.
MindWandererB 08-12-07, 04:13 PM	Familiars can deliver touch spells gained from classes other than that which grants the familiar... right? I.E: Hawk familiar from Wizard delivering Inflict spells from Cleric. With a duration of 2 rounds Hold Person is more effective than Spiritual Weapon, right? (Of course, I can have scrolls so I'll have access to both..) Need to get my CL up to improve those round/level effects, heh. Yes on the familiars. How can you get a 2-round HP? Minimum CL is 3. But the key there is the difference in function: one is a save-or-die (sort of), the other deals damage. There's a time and a place for both.
Eamane 08-12-07, 04:16 PM	Yes on the familiars. How can you get a 2-round HP? Minimum CL is 3. But the key there is the difference in function: one is a save-or-die (sort of), the other deals damage. There's a time and a place for both. How you ask? Misreading charts, thats how! ^_^ But since I wont be memorizing them >.< I'll go with the one that doesn't have save checks, as scrolls have horrible save dcs.
TheMagister 08-12-07, 10:07 PM	The campaign starts in Gladius so I have no problem with you purchasing a few things before you go. I upgraded her shield to Evil Outsider Bane. It caught her eye while window-shopping. If you call "shenanigans", then that's too bad for Sdentch (cause she really wants it...DUH). In that case, I'll ask for opportunity to receive such a blessing from Farlanghan in the course of the campaign. TM
MindWandererB 08-13-07, 01:32 AM	I'd like a second opinion on this: Gauntlet attacks count as unarmed strikes and a monks unarmed strikes count as natural weapons. => damage for the cold Iron Gautlet should include the bonus from the amulet of mighty fist and should be 2d8+8. Damage for Silver gauntlet should be 2d8+7.Yes, gauntlets are treated as unarmed strikes. But the gauntlet itself is not a magic weapon. It seems cheesy to allow, say, a +5 amulet of mighty fists to combine with a +1 merciful, shocking, freezing, flaming gauntlet.
Eamane 08-13-07, 01:48 AM	I'd like a second opinion on this: Yes, gauntlets are treated as unarmed strikes. But the gauntlet itself is not a magic weapon. It seems cheesy to allow, say, a +5 amulet of mighty fists to combine with a +1 merciful, shocking, freezing, flaming gauntlet. Interesting situation. Amulet says it grants bonuses to Unarmed Attacks. Gauntlets are in fact, listed under Unarmed Attacks on the equipment list in the SRD. It states that it is treated as an unarmed strike. And it is a weapon that can be enchanted. So... I would say they do stack. You wont get monk damage as well, but you can combine those two. Sounds like a fun source of damage for someone that can craft all that. Wizard/Eldritch Knight with craft ma&a and craft wonderous? If its unbalanced, you could spot nerf it, but I would say it works, RAW. EDIT: Actually... monks do get damage with the gauntlets. (as per latest FAQ) Wow. Talk about high damage output. Then again, monks need all the help they can get and probably the last thing they need is one more item to sink their money into, though being able to get a gauntlet at +1 for 2k instead of a amulet +1 for 6k is nice. You do take a -4 proficiency when using the gauntlet as a monk though, since they don't get all simple weapons, heh. Clarify: As per my interpretation of it anyways. Seems like their allowing it, though plenty of people disagree. How messy.
NiQil 08-13-07, 01:58 AM	Interesting situation. Amulet says it grants bonuses to Unarmed Attacks. Gauntlets are in fact, listed under Unarmed Attacks on the equipment list in the SRD. It states that it is treated as an unarmed strike. And it is a weapon that can be enchanted. So... I would say they do stack. You wont get monk damage as well, but you can combine those two. Sounds like a fun source of damage for someone that can craft all that. Wizard/Eldritch Knight with craft ma&a and craft wonderous? If its unbalanced, you could spot nerf it, but I would say it works, RAW. EDIT: Actually... monks do get damage with the gauntlets. (as per latest FAQ) Wow. Talk about high damage output. Then again, monks need all the help they can get and probably the last thing they need is one more item to sink their money into, though being able to get a gauntlet at +1 for 2k instead of a amulet +1 for 6k is nice. You do take a -4 proficiency when using the gauntlet as a monk though, since they don't get all simple weapons, heh. Actually, not only do they stack, but you get unarmed monk damage also, since the FAQ states that gauntlets are treated as unarmed strikes, meaning that you will strike with whatever your unarmed attack damage is. My retired character Juggernaut was based on this principle. @ MWB: So to answer your question, yes, what lonewolf says there is correct, per both the RAW and the FAQ. Gauntlets are treated as unarmed attacks, and the AoMF affects unarmed attacks. So you get to stack the AoMF with whatever you get from gauntlets, and still get your unarmed monk damage value also. Now granted, most will not go this way since the AoMF is so much more expensive than just pumping a gauntlet to +5, but if you have the cash, it is a viable option. You will only get the higher enhancement bonus to your unarmed strikes (in your example, it would be the +5 from the AoMF, and the +1 from the gauntlet would be lost), but you get all of the bonuses you can put on a gauntlet. To put it another way, think of it similar to the bonus an Arcane Archer receives to his bow from his class feature. He can get a +5 from taking class levels, and then still have a +1 Shocking Burst, Frost Burst, Flaming Burst, Distance, Pyrokinetic Burst Longbow so that he effectively has a +14 weapon (since the +1 on the bow will get overriden by the bonuses from the class levels).
MindWandererB 08-13-07, 02:10 AM	Yeah, but that's pretty much the AA's best feature. A class feature is a good excuse to get stacking like that. But, I'll go with the flow.
Rauul 08-13-07, 08:52 AM	Whats the credit cost to release a leadership cohort and get a new one?
lonewolf 08-13-07, 08:56 AM	Whats the credit cost to release a leadership cohort and get a new one? AFAIK there are no credit costs. You just have to quest for the new one(or pay 3 credits to skip the quest)
Rauul 08-13-07, 02:33 PM	AFAIK there are no credit costs. You just have to quest for the new one(or pay 3 credits to skip the quest) 3 credits is cheap enough... thanks
TelinArtho 08-13-07, 03:12 PM	Okay - there is a last spot open in the Group 1 Denth campaign. I have had to make a decision to exclude Mitza from the group in the interest of having a continuous flow and to have everyone involved as much as possible. So, if someone has an ECL9-11 character they can activate for the campaign starting this Wednesday and that would not have an issue being with paladins (so no evil), PM me. The slot is open to anyone and will be accepted according to whom I feel will be a best fit (so not necessarily first-come first-served). I am looking to make a decision before the end of my workday tomorrow (about 27 hours from now) - but will notify as soon as I find someone appropriate. Worse case scenario: the campaign proceeds with the remaining 4.
Salrantol 08-13-07, 03:15 PM	Can you full-activity craft less than 1000 gp market?
lonewolf 08-13-07, 03:17 PM	Okay - there is a last spot open in the Group 1 Denth campaign. I have had to make a decision to exclude Mitza from the group in the interest of having a continuous flow and to have everyone involved as much as possible. So, if someone has an ECL9-11 character they can activate for the campaign starting this Wednesday and that would not have an issue being with paladins (so no evil), PM me. The slot is open to anyone and will be accepted according to whom I feel will be a best fit (so not necessarily first-come first-served). I am looking to make a decision before the end of my workday tomorrow (about 27 hours from now) - but will notify as soon as I find someone appropriate. Worse case scenario: the campaign proceeds with the remaining 4. I am interested to join with Kitty. I havent done the MQ to find his Leadership cohort yet, but maybe he can find him during the campaign?
lonewolf 08-13-07, 03:20 PM	Can you full-activity craft less than 1000 gp market? sure you can craft up to 7000gp as a full activity.
Zevox 08-13-07, 03:21 PM	I am interested to join with Kitty. I havent done the MQ to find his Leadership cohort yet, but maybe he can find him during the campaign? Ooo, that could be quite fun. A Pseudodragon and a Silver Dragon in the same campaign group? Sounds like a formula for some great RP :) . (Though I think it'll make our fights tougher, since Kitty's main trick is all but useless against most Denthian-style foes, and he doesn't have the healing abilities Willowmon did...) Zevox
lonewolf 08-13-07, 03:40 PM	Ooo, that could be quite fun. A Pseudodragon and a Silver Dragon in the same campaign group? Sounds like a formula for some great RP :) . (Though I think it'll make our fights tougher, since Kitty's main trick is all but useless against most Denthian-style foes, and he doesn't have the healing abilities Willowmon did...) Zevox hmm I could change Kittys Cohort to a cleric to improve our healing capability. The group seems to have more than enough arcane firepower already.
MindWandererB 08-13-07, 03:41 PM	Ooo, that could be quite fun. A Pseudodragon and a Silver Dragon in the same campaign group? Sounds like a formula for some great RP :) . (Though I think it'll make our fights tougher, since Kitty's main trick is all but useless against most Denthian-style foes, and he doesn't have the healing abilities Willowmon did...) Zevox Too bad Kitty never MQ'ed to rejoin TLT. Well, you can try to represent our interests anyhow, if you want.
lonewolf 08-13-07, 03:47 PM	Too bad Kitty never MQ'ed to rejoin TLT. Well, you can try to represent our interests anyhow, if you want. I would have, If I had known that I could join the campaign. but I could spend 3 credits instead of the MQ, couldnt I?
NiQil 08-13-07, 10:14 PM	So I have come to a sad realization... I have found that, while I prefer to play melee characters, and tend to loathe casters/manifesters.....I am better at playing casters than I am at meatshields. How in the heck did this happen?
Eamane 08-13-07, 10:51 PM	So I have come to a sad realization... I have found that, while I prefer to play melee characters, and tend to loathe casters/manifesters.....I am better at playing casters than I am at meatshields. How in the heck did this happen? Yeah. That happened to me about six months ago. Though I still try meatshields now and again... As a note, I'd like you to continue running your 'waves' of meatshields. They have (imho) a stabilizing effect on the meta, with you around there will always be some dwarven fighters waiting to hack up someone who lets them. (Like low hp, high SR builds)
Zevox 08-14-07, 01:01 AM	Query: Would an Orange Prism Ioun Stone provide +1 ML to a Psion as it provides +1 CL to a caster? I'm considering picking it up with the vast treasures Istima picked up from the PSI campaign, but if it doesn't even work, I might as well move on to other options. Zevox
TheMagister 08-14-07, 01:23 AM	So I have come to a sad realization... I have found that, while I prefer to play melee characters, and tend to loathe casters/manifesters.....I am better at playing casters than I am at meatshields. How in the heck did this happen? See, and I always play the casters in the TT games I'm involved in (I'm kinda notorious for 'em). I'm obsessed with finding a viable melee or ranged-centered build that casters are FORCED to go all-out on to win against. I know that the caster will always win. I got that. The day that Istima eked out his win vs. Hood (and had to play the Ego Whip card to do it) was a happy day for me. Tessero'll be okay once I get him some method of speed. I don't quite regret the adamantine full plate, but I'm really hating the 20' move speed. I think I'll have Cupid craft him a ring of expeditous retreat or something. Or add the Speed ability to his armor. That'd be cool. Or horseshoes of speed for his future mounts. Something. TM
MindWandererB 08-14-07, 01:23 AM	Query: Would an Orange Prism Ioun Stone provide +1 ML to a Psion as it provides +1 CL to a caster? I'm considering picking it up with the vast treasures Istima picked up from the PSI campaign, but if it doesn't even work, I might as well move on to other options. Zevox I would have thought so, but then it would be mentioned in the transparency section, and it isn't.
Zevox 08-14-07, 01:35 AM	I would have thought so, but then it would be mentioned in the transparency section, and it isn't. Tisk. Oh well - I think I've settled on some great items anyway. Well, great improvements to his existing items anyway. (Ever seen a 12th-level straight caster with over 100 hp?) The day that Istima eked out his win vs. Hood (and had to play the Ego Whip card to do it) was a happy day for me. Speaking of that, still want a rematch? Hood'll have some catching up to do now that Istima is level 12 (and not that far from 13, actually), but I can wait if you're still interested. Or we could arrange an inter-league with Hood getting another interested Gladiator as an ally or something. Zevox
Callix 08-14-07, 06:56 AM	Again, this is probably a dumb question, but does a character have to be active/inactive to respond to a Denth attack? If this is covered elsewhere, a link would be both sufficient and appreciated.
hogarth 08-14-07, 07:00 AM	Again, this is probably a dumb question, but does a character have to be active/inactive to respond to a Denth attack? If this is covered elsewhere, a link would be both sufficient and appreciated. I don't think you can quest/campaign/fight in the arena and intercept an attack in the same week. The rules for intercepting a paramilitary group are in the Guild thread, inside some of the zillion nested sblocks somewhere.
SauroGrenom 08-14-07, 08:30 AM	Query: Would an Orange Prism Ioun Stone provide +1 ML to a Psion as it provides +1 CL to a caster? I'm considering picking it up with the vast treasures Istima picked up from the PSI campaign, but if it doesn't even work, I might as well move on to other options. Zevox I've asked this question several times, and the answer keeps changing. In the past MWB has said no and yes. There are other similar items that could be useful. Like a robe of the archmagi and its 2 bonus to penetrate SR. Also the psionitrix and its bonus on save dc for spells of a particular school (transparency equates schools to the various disciplines). There's also the possibility that feats like spell focus and greater spell focus can be used to provide bonuses on the associated schools of psionic powers. Obviously all of these crossovers could be useful for a cerebremancer like Raskos. I've been unable to get solid answers for these questions in the past.
hogarth 08-14-07, 08:55 AM	I've asked this question several times, and the answer keeps changing. In the past MWB has said no and yes. There are other similar items that could be useful. Like a robe of the archmagi and its 2 bonus to penetrate SR. Also the psionitrix and its bonus on save dc for spells of a particular school (transparency equates schools to the various disciplines). There's also the possibility that feats like spell focus and greater spell focus can be used to provide bonuses on the associated schools of psionic powers. Obviously all of these crossovers could be useful for a cerebremancer like Raskos. I've been unable to get solid answers for these questions in the past. Sauro, as far as I know, you're the only one who thinks that psionic/magic transparency should apply in every conceivable case. The answers to your questions above seem clear to me: 1) You could make an ioun stone that gave +1 ML, but it would be a custom item (note that +1 ML is better than +1 CL since it's allowing you some higher level effects earlier). Ditto with a Robe of the Archpsion. 2) Spell focus doesn't work on psionic powers. There's nothing in the rules that says it would other than some vague wording in the preamble of the Magic/Psionic Transparency section of the rules. Those answers (which you have received in the past) seem pretty "solid" to me. But you're always welcome to raise the issue again in the Courtroom thread, of course.
TelinArtho 08-14-07, 10:25 AM	Again, this is probably a dumb question, but does a character have to be active/inactive to respond to a Denth attack? If this is covered elsewhere, a link would be both sufficient and appreciated. The Denth attacks are guild activities at the moment. So if a guild you are in gets attacked, you merely need to speak up and get the task (as Sjiggie did when I put out a call in the CEF thread). Once that happens, you do activate your character with a title line indicating the guild attack. Something like this would work: Ready 15 Aug 2007, Fight 1/3, Denth interception at CEF Necropolis
TelinArtho 08-14-07, 10:41 AM	Okay - there is a last spot open in the Group 1 Denth campaign. I have had to make a decision to exclude Mitza from the group in the interest of having a continuous flow and to have everyone involved as much as possible. So, if someone has an ECL9-11 character they can activate for the campaign starting this Wednesday and that would not have an issue being with paladins (so no evil), PM me. The slot is open to anyone and will be accepted according to whom I feel will be a best fit (so not necessarily first-come first-served). I am looking to make a decision before the end of my workday tomorrow (about 27 hours from now) - but will notify as soon as I find someone appropriate. Worse case scenario: the campaign proceeds with the remaining 4. Just a bump in case anyone missed it. So far the only applicant is Kitty.
TheMagister 08-14-07, 10:50 AM	Are there NO clerics/paladins in the ECL 10-11 range? We sure could use you. Sdentch always seems to get HAMMERED, despite all my excellent tactical moves. :) How about Telveren? Edit and the answer to that is "No, Telveren's pretty much it!". Send Sunwolf a PM, Telin. I'll buy him two wands of CLW myself (all I have to do is refund the CLW potions!) :)
TelinArtho 08-14-07, 10:54 AM	For what its worth - Ephraim is going with you guys - so she has access to healing via wands and such. Plus - there's still a cleric at ECL10... Sdentch would love to go questing with Kraegin, wouldn't she?
lonewolf 08-14-07, 10:55 AM	And as I said, I could still change Kittys Cohort to cleric...
TheMagister 08-14-07, 10:55 AM	A quest that involves Kraegin? Yes. :schemes:
Zevox 08-14-07, 10:57 AM	Nimbus has access to healing wands too, being that Silver Dragons can get Cleric spells as Sorcerer Spells naturally, and I bought him a Wand of Cure Moderate Wounds. Should help, but its not exactly the kind of mid-combat field healing you'd want out of a true Cleric. Zevox
TheMagister 08-14-07, 10:57 AM	And as I said, I could still change Kittys Cohort to cleric... Well, you're running out of time, since tomorrow's the deadline. Could you work up a cohort now, just on the off chance that Kitty gets in to the campaign?
TheMagister 08-14-07, 10:59 AM	I dunno -- I've always looked at wands of CLW/CMW as pocket DR. If I can keep a really useful melee character around who's sure to deal more damage in the round than he's takin', it's worth it to use the wand and do nothing else in the round (I'm speaking from TT experience here). It's amazing how trusting in your fighters saves your spells for those really important times.
lonewolf 08-14-07, 11:05 AM	Well, I had planned to start working on the cohort the moment that I get the definitive ok from Telin that Kitty is in. I dont wanna spend hours building a cohort for a campaign and then not get in...
TelinArtho 08-14-07, 11:14 AM	For the record lonewolf - I am inclined to put you in, but I want the players to realize what they are trading Willowmoon for. Kitty, quite frankly, doesn't have the offensive push that Willowmoon did. Willowmoon also had a small host of natural healing SLAs to work with. And since no one has spoken up until now (not that surprising - pretty much everyone spoke up when I put out the original call), I can safely put you in now. It'll take me some more work anyway - so I might as well start now. Anyway - I've got to get back to the Chameleon vs Retikos fight... looks like it will be interesting once I figure out why the hell Chameleon wants to move to the top of a building (in broad daylight...) when the shadows of buildins are below him...
Rauul 08-14-07, 11:17 AM	Question for all you Old timers... a ex paladin 1/Blackguard 10 (former Paladin 11) Do they get all the Fallen Paladin Ability's as well as the Blackguard ability's?
lonewolf 08-14-07, 11:19 AM	I assume that since the tower has not a flat roof but a pointy roof, that there is some shadow up there. I used this tactic before in chameleons fight vs Uilo, and Zevox, who ran the fight back then, agreed with me.
Rauul 08-14-07, 11:20 AM	For the record lonewolf - I am inclined to put you in, but I want the players to realize what they are trading Willowmoon for. Kitty, quite frankly, doesn't have the offensive push that Willowmoon did. Willowmoon also had a small host of natural healing SLAs to work with. And since no one has spoken up until now (not that surprising - pretty much everyone spoke up when I put out the original call), I can safely put you in now. It'll take me some more work anyway - so I might as well start now. Anyway - I've got to get back to the Chameleon vs Retikos fight... looks like it will be interesting once I figure out why the hell Chameleon wants to move to the top of a building (in broad daylight...) when the shadows of buildins are below him... Well i would volunteer Corrupter.. but all the Paladummys and goodies might frown on the Undead and the Evilness of the Cleric Cohort (and he is to low of level anyways)
Zevox 08-14-07, 11:25 AM	Question for all you Old timers... a ex paladin 1/Blackguard 10 (former Paladin 11) Do they get all the Fallen Paladin Ability's as well as the Blackguard ability's? Yes, but only for as many Paladin levels as they still have. So a Paladin 1/Blackguard 10 will just get one more Smite Good per day from his Paladin level, and thats it. Zevox
TelinArtho 08-14-07, 11:25 AM	I assume that since the tover has not a flat roof but a pointy roof, that there is some shadow up there. I used this tactic before in chameleons fight vs Uilo and Zevox, who ran the fight back then, agreed with me. Well - I doubt very much it will make a difference, but we'll see how it turns out...
Rauul 08-14-07, 11:31 AM	Yes, but only for as many Paladin levels as they still have. So a Paladin 1/Blackguard 10 will just get one more Smite Good per day from his Paladin level, and thats it. Zevox so the levels they trade in for blackguard don't count as having ex paladin levels.. ok thanks..
Erithmu 08-14-07, 12:45 PM	Guild Mission question: If a mission is set to recover goods there is a chance on the rewards roll that there are no goods to recover. Is this part of the risk involved in doing this type of mission, or should the missionlord reroll if the guild gets 'no reward' as part of their reward?
Zevox 08-14-07, 12:55 PM	Guild Mission question: If a mission is set to recover goods there is a chance on the rewards roll that there are no goods to recover. Is this part of the risk involved in doing this type of mission, or should the missionlord reroll if the guild gets 'no reward' as part of their reward? *frowns* I hadn't noticed that. If MWB doesn't mind, I'd favor rerolling if you get nothing personally - else a single roll renders the whole mission a complete waste of time and CAPs to the Guild, not to mention how much time and effort the players put into it. Zevox
Erithmu 08-14-07, 03:07 PM	@Zevox: I figured as much, and unless I get a barrage of "No they don't get anything" then EHTC's rewards are up. @All: Owen has had to deal with lots of updates due to his new equipment, gold, cohort, etc etc. While he is not fully complete I would appreciate a few glance overs looking for any critical errors. He is by no means done (as seen in the 'to do' list) but I just don't want to have all the work I put into the update to go for naught.
MindWandererB 08-14-07, 03:56 PM	*frowns* I hadn't noticed that. If MWB doesn't mind, I'd favor rerolling if you get nothing personally - else a single roll renders the whole mission a complete waste of time and CAPs to the Guild, not to mention how much time and effort the players put into it. Zevox I do have to object to this. I did the math on the various categories of treasure once, and each of the three--coins, gems, and art--are statistically identical in terms of average value. If you eliminate the possibility of getting nothing, then that falls apart. When you go on a mission with that as the goal, you're playing the odds.
templer10 08-14-07, 04:36 PM	iam wondering - can a pegasus who's a psychic warrior use dorja's/powerstones?
MindWandererB 08-14-07, 05:15 PM	iam wondering - can a pegasus who's a psychic warrior use dorja's/powerstones? Powerstones, yes--you don't need much dexterity to be able to manipulate such an object (as Mitza argued fairly well). Dorjes, I don't think so--you have to be able to point those, which is difficult without hands. At one point, I'd imagined using Claws of the Beast to help with that, but that, too, requires hands.
Sjiggie 08-14-07, 05:18 PM	The pegasus can always hold the dorje in his mouth and point it that way. It only needs a command thought not a word. But maybe that is a bit of a stretch to the rules. -Sjiggie
templer10 08-14-07, 05:19 PM	Powerstones, yes--you don't need much dexterity to be able to manipulate such an object (as Mitza argued fairly well). Dorjes, I don't think so--you have to be able to point those, which is difficult without hands. At one point, I'd imagined using Claws of the Beast to help with that, but that, too, requires hands. Actually i was thinking of self buff dorja's - vigor, force screen etc etc.
MindWandererB 08-14-07, 05:40 PM	Actually i was thinking of self buff dorja's - vigor, force screen etc etc. Oddly, you still have to be able to point those, even at yourself. In a sense, I suppose you could pick it up by the tip with your mouth, and it would point at you, but I don't really want to go there.
Callix 08-14-07, 05:49 PM	How does free action item crafting work? Rennae wants to encode some power stones to replace the ones used in the last few weeks. Does she simply list the action, then deduct the gold and add the items at the end of the 3FC? And can she create power stones that would currently exceed her expendables cap, knowing she would use enough items to bring her back under before the 3FC ends?
Rauul 08-14-07, 06:20 PM	hate double posts
Rauul 08-14-07, 06:22 PM	Powerstones, yes--you don't need much dexterity to be able to manipulate such an object (as Mitza argued fairly well). Dorjes, I don't think so--you have to be able to point those, which is difficult without hands. At one point, I'd imagined using Claws of the Beast to help with that, but that, too, requires hands. Hand of the Mage, Price 900 gp ,Weight 2 lb. Solves that problem quite well...
Eamane 08-14-07, 06:49 PM	Re: Default Character Sheet Why is there a slot for keeping track of the third fight in a 3FC? If your going to do a new 3FC, then you have to clear it anyways and anything that happened in the last 3FC doesn't move over to the next 3FC... If your not going to do a new 3FC, then nothing that happened in the 3FC carries over either. So what exactly is the slot for? Seems like dead weight to me.
MindWandererB 08-14-07, 07:17 PM	Re: Default Character Sheet Why is there a slot for keeping track of the third fight in a 3FC? If your going to do a new 3FC, then you have to clear it anyways and anything that happened in the last 3FC doesn't move over to the next 3FC... If your not going to do a new 3FC, then nothing that happened in the 3FC carries over either. So what exactly is the slot for? Seems like dead weight to me. You're right. A lot of us delete it.
Rauul 08-14-07, 07:53 PM	Re: Default Character Sheet Why is there a slot for keeping track of the third fight in a 3FC? If your going to do a new 3FC, then you have to clear it anyways and anything that happened in the last 3FC doesn't move over to the next 3FC... If your not going to do a new 3FC, then nothing that happened in the 3FC carries over either. So what exactly is the slot for? Seems like dead weight to me. I keep mine just so i can cut and paste it to the 1-2 when the cycle restarts.. (am weird that way)
Zevox 08-14-07, 08:06 PM	Re: Default Character Sheet Why is there a slot for keeping track of the third fight in a 3FC? If your going to do a new 3FC, then you have to clear it anyways and anything that happened in the last 3FC doesn't move over to the next 3FC... If your not going to do a new 3FC, then nothing that happened in the 3FC carries over either. So what exactly is the slot for? Seems like dead weight to me. As MWB said, you're right. This is why I delete even the second set of 3FC info from my sheets when my characters aren't using it, then just copy/paste the first and fill it in with the new info after a second fight. Saves space. Never has been a use for a third. Zevox
Zevox 08-14-07, 08:13 PM	And I don't know any horizon walkers at all, though there were one or two planned ones that never got that far. Ihdald Seaslash, my brother's old Sea Elf, was one. Pity he seems to have decided not to return. Zevox
Zevox 08-14-07, 08:28 PM	All right, with tomorrow being the start of the Denth campaigns, I'd like to ask one last time for people to look over/comment on/make suggestions for Nimbus. Main things I'd like suggestions on: Items - I suspect I'm understocked on expendables for the campaign, but I'm not sure what to turn in for more and what specifically to pick up. Skills - I moved 5 points each from listen and spot to Use Magic Device, but I'm still not sure if its worth it. Also considering putting points into Disguise, which is a class skill for Silver Dragons, just on the chance that the +10 he gets using his alternate form won't be good enough vs some folks on the campaign (and in case I can find an arena use for it). I'd love to hear from the others going on the campaign or Telin especially, but anyone's input is quite welcome. Edit: By the way, Telin, curious: would you take requests for item drops along the campaign? Theres a couple of essentials I want for Nimbus he either couldn't afford initially or can't use until he gets his Psychic Warrior level next level. Zevox
MindWandererB 08-14-07, 08:44 PM	All right, with tomorrow being the start of the Denth campaigns, I'd like to ask one last time for people to look over/comment on/make suggestions for Nimbus. Main things I'd like suggestions on: Items - I suspect I'm understocked on expendables for the campaign, but I'm not sure what to turn in for more and what specifically to pick up. Skills - I moved 5 points each from listen and spot to Use Magic Device, but I'm still not sure if its worth it. Also considering putting points into Disguise, which is a class skill for Silver Dragons, just on the chance that the +10 he gets using his alternate form won't be good enough vs some folks on the campaign (and in case I can find an arena use for it). I'd love to hear from the others going on the campaign or Telin especially, but anyone's input is quite welcome. Edit: By the way, Telin, curious: would you take requests for item drops along the campaign? Theres a couple of essentials I want for Nimbus he either couldn't afford initially or can't use until he gets his Psychic Warrior level next level. Zevox I don't know if you'd want to consider a wand of Protection from Evil (750 gp) over the potions (200 gp already). Your total lack of ranged options concerns me a bit, and a wand would help there--I don't know if you could manage to scrounge up the ever-popular CL9 Magic Missile wand, but it's worth considering. I don't know what you have that you're so worried about being dispelled than you need the ring of counterspells for it. But most confusing are the oils of bless and corrupt weapon--you have no weapons to use them on. What do you plan to do with UMD? You have all sorc/wiz and cleric spells on your class list already. Are there scrolls you really want to use that badly, that you can't use just as well in a wand?
Zevox 08-14-07, 08:58 PM	I don't know if you'd want to consider a wand of Protection from Evil (750 gp) over the potions (200 gp already). Eh, maybe. Not sure where I'd scrounge the extra 250 gp from though. Your total lack of ranged options concerns me a bit, and a wand would help there--I don't know if you could manage to scrounge up the ever-popular CL9 Magic Missile wand, but it's worth considering. That was one of the items I was going to ask Telin about dropping. I decided to nix it for the CMW wand initially, for campaign purposes largely, though the wand will probably be good in the arena too. Though ranged options aren't much of an issue for someone with a fly speed of 100' I'd tend to think - only Pegasi even stand a chance of outrunning him. I don't know what you have that you're so worried about being dispelled than you need the ring of counterspells for it. Expansion - his main tactic is going to be to use that to grow in size and get extra attacks/higher damage from his attacks (plus high speed and divine might from level 13+). One of the items I want to get him ASAP is an ML 3 dorje of that, and later on an ML 9 one is pretty likely too. But most confusing are the oils of bless and corrupt weapon--you have no weapons to use them on. What, wouldn't those work if used on his claws/bite? Or should he turn them in for potions of the same instead? What do you plan to do with UMD? You have all sorc/wiz and cleric spells on your class list already. Are there scrolls you really want to use that badly, that you can't use just as well in a wand? Scrolls are a lot cheaper than wands and half the cost of potions, so yeah, I was figuring it'd be good for those. Not immediately, but later on. Plus you never know what Telin's going to be dropping in that campaign. Zevox
MindWandererB 08-14-07, 09:06 PM	What, wouldn't those work if used on his claws/bite? Or should he turn them in for potions of the same instead?Won't work, period. "Target weapon" means a manufactured weapon unless it says otherwise. Otherwise, all the psionic weapon-enhancers (e.g. weapon of energy) would render all the natural weapon-enhancers (e.g. claw of energy) worthless. I can't think of any spell that aligns a natural weapon.
lonewolf 08-14-07, 09:34 PM	Won't work, period. "Target weapon" means a manufactured weapon unless it says otherwise. Otherwise, all the psionic weapon-enhancers (e.g. weapon of energy) would render all the natural weapon-enhancers (e.g. claw of energy) worthless. I can't think of any spell that aligns a natural weapon. There are such spells, just not in Core.
Zevox 08-14-07, 10:00 PM	Won't work, period. "Target weapon" means a manufactured weapon unless it says otherwise. Otherwise, all the psionic weapon-enhancers (e.g. weapon of energy) would render all the natural weapon-enhancers (e.g. claw of energy) worthless. I can't think of any spell that aligns a natural weapon. *bites lip* Drat. Thats gonna suck on the campaign if Telin uses any powerful outsiders. Still, I suppose I can use the cash I get from refunding them to pick up that Pro Evil wand. Zevox
Zevox 08-14-07, 10:07 PM	@ MWB - Just noticed Nimbus' name on the roster - you can just call him Nimbus man. Nimvellobusiten is just a random "full" name I made up for him for flavor due to the way Dragon names generally are, hes going to go by Nimbus with just about everyone he ever interacts with. Zevox
Erithmu 08-14-07, 10:13 PM	The sounds of battle rage in Treversham ...
NiQil 08-14-07, 10:18 PM	The sounds of battle rage in Treversham ... Is that what it is? I thought you let one go! :yuck: :embarrass :blush: :surrender
Eamane 08-14-07, 10:36 PM	Didn't get a response from TM in the war thread, so I'll ask here; What title format/etc does a character need to have in order to be ready to defend vs Denthian attacks? Just not sure what to put and I'd rather do it right than not.
Erithmu 08-14-07, 10:51 PM	Didn't get a response from TM in the war thread, so I'll ask here; What title format/etc does a character need to have in order to be ready to defend vs Denthian attacks? Just not sure what to put and I'd rather do it right than not. Date: Ready to intercept Denth; Free: _____ Part of guildmaster duties is to indicate who is defending what. This means that the guildmaster 'can' override what the character is doing ... I know this happened to a few CEF chars
NiQil 08-14-07, 11:06 PM	And at the 11th hour, I introduce Ryer Ord Star to Gladius. Feedback and critique welcome.
Hirumajoe 08-14-07, 11:18 PM	And at the 11th hour, I introduce Ryer Ord Star to Gladius. Feedback and critique welcome. Seems slightly redundant to choose rapier as your Battle Sorcerer weapon when the Elven weapon proficiencies cover that, but I guess if you only plan on using a rapier or bow its a non-issue. Also, not quite sure what you're planning to do with the quick draw feat. Would point blank shot and rapid shot be better, perhaps removing weapon focus (Longbow) in addition to make space for it?
NiQil 08-14-07, 11:29 PM	Seems slightly redundant to choose rapier as your Battle Sorcerer weapon when the Elven weapon proficiencies cover that, but I guess if you only plan on using a rapier or bow its a non-issue. Also, not quite sure what you're planning to do with the quick draw feat. Would point blank shot and rapid shot be better, perhaps removing weapon focus (Longbow) in addition to make space for it? Yanno...I didn't even think about the rapier thing...never crossed my mind. Good call...I'll have to change that. Quick Draw is there because this build will also be wand-centric as it progresses, so it will be nice to be able to swap them out quickly. I also can't drop Weapon Focus without also dropping Power Critical, since one is the prereq for the other. Alos, I hope to not be in a position where I would need PBS, since I will want to keep range as much as possible in most circumstances, and Rapid Shot is the antithesis of a mobile archer. I am thinking about going for Shot on the Run, however. That would allow me to do strafing runs between points of cover and other neat things
Erithmu 08-14-07, 11:52 PM	And at the 11th hour, I introduce Ryer Ord Star to Gladius. Feedback and critique welcome. Some thoughts about the critical feats ... By the time you get Power crit and imp crit ... you can have true strike and keen on your weapon that trump those abilities. If you could squeeze a few more points into int you could pick up some handle animal and pick up a mount ... oh wait you have ethical issues with allies ... If you wanted shot on the run you should almost get it at the front end, the hard part is that it is feat intensive and you just won't have the room to get it until it is past useful. If you are going to be wand slinging you probably don't really need SotR. anything that is a full caster normally will start using spells after about 4th lvl spells. So by ECL8 you should be looking at the fact that your longbow will be pretty outdated w/ proper spell selection.
MindWandererB 08-15-07, 02:35 AM	@ MWB - Just noticed Nimbus' name on the roster - you can just call him Nimbus man. Nimvellobusiten is just a random "full" name I made up for him for flavor due to the way Dragon names generally are, hes going to go by Nimbus with just about everyone he ever interacts with. ZevoxIn contrast to Cat's policy of just writing any random thing on the roster (see Baelin), I make it a policy to put exactly what's on the character sheet as the name. Less confusing that way, and it ensures that I'm doing exactly what the player wants (otherwise, I'd correct what I perceive to be misspellings and such). But since you asked, it's changed.And at the 11th hour, I introduce Ryer Ord Star to Gladius. Feedback and critique welcome.Are you planning on using every name Terry Brooks ever came up with? I'm just waiting for Landover names.... Dude... you got nothin'. You've got a reasonable keep-away tactic available to you for now, and that might bring you to ECL 4 with a reasonable record (I say "might" because mounties trump expy retreat), but a CoCo gish relies heavily on more effects than you have available. Successful gishes can either bump their AC or their damage through the roof with spells, and all you have is a pretty solid AC. Your no-expendables, no-allies policy is really going to hurt you here. I'd go ahead and get Deflect Arrows now, based on what I see so far. In melee, you are mush. You have no reason to be there voluntarily, and anyone who forces you to be there involuntarily will be better at it than you are. You're a decent but not overwhelming archer, but Expy Retreat + Deflect Arrows can make you a serious threat against another archer or any non-mounted melee build. I don't see the point of Fleet of Foot in the slightest, but it's probably moot--knowing you, the chances of your reaching ECL 12 with this gal are close to nil.
Vathelokai 08-15-07, 12:30 PM	@zevox, guildlords: Guildlords PM box was full, so I sent TAOs caps to Zevox's box. Hope it works. If not, I should be on most of the day and can resend them.
templer10 08-15-07, 12:45 PM	someone mind reminding me how does flurry of blows work with creatures with a Hoof/hoof/bite natural weapons?
Eamane 08-15-07, 12:50 PM	someone mind reminding me how does flurry of blows work with creatures with a Hoof/hoof/bite natural weapons? As per the Rules of the Game article on unarmed attacks: You get your unarmed attacks + your natural weapons. You cannot flurry your natural weapons, because they aren't monk special weapons. This works with claws as well as hoof attacks or anything else.
MindWandererB 08-15-07, 03:34 PM	As per the Rules of the Game article on unarmed attacks: You get your unarmed attacks + your natural weapons. You cannot flurry your natural weapons, because they aren't monk special weapons. This works with claws as well as hoof attacks or anything else. Not quite. Since claws use your hands, you can use only one claw with a flurry of blows. A flurry with hooves and a bite would take a -2 penalty to the unarmed attacks (or less, for a higher-level monk) and a -7 penalty to the natural weapons (-2 for flurry, -5 for secondary). If the creature in question has no other hands, it gets to use only one hoof (since it's using the other one for unarmed strikes); if it has hands in addition to hoofs (like a centaur), it can use both.
TelinArtho 08-15-07, 04:02 PM	I think I see Myrridin lurking in the mists. Hello old friend.
TheMagister 08-15-07, 04:17 PM	Hey, Vath? Why don't you have Auburn summon a hippogriff with a SM II and see if it can't get a 19-20 before it dies? Auburn could help by truestriking a thrown rock or something, or by flanking it. It could be down to just a few hp. P.S. buy her a dagger.
Eamane 08-15-07, 04:21 PM	Not quite. Since claws use your hands, you can use only one claw with a flurry of blows. A flurry with hooves and a bite would take a -2 penalty to the unarmed attacks (or less, for a higher-level monk) and a -7 penalty to the natural weapons (-2 for flurry, -5 for secondary). If the creature in question has no other hands, it gets to use only one hoof (since it's using the other one for unarmed strikes); if it has hands in addition to hoofs (like a centaur), it can use both. EDIT: Misread! You cant flurry with natural >.> But you can do a full attack + natural without a problem! Just as good. Link: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070410a
TelinArtho 08-15-07, 04:31 PM	Hey, Vath? Why don't you have Auburn summon a hippogriff with a SM II and see if it can't get a 19-20 before it dies? Auburn could help by truestriking a thrown rock or something, or by flanking it. It could be down to just a few hp. P.S. buy her a dagger. Summon Monster II not SNAII TM... The options he has for a flying creature in the SMII list are Celestial Bee, Celestial Eagle, 1d3 Celestial Owls, 1d3 Fiendish Ravens, 1d3 Fiendish Hawks. None of these would have DR/Magic and therefore their natural attacks would not be able to beat DR/Magic. In addition, any one of them would need to roll a natural 20 to hit. It was down to 12hp...
MindWandererB 08-15-07, 04:37 PM	EDIT: Misread! You cant flurry with natural >.> But you can do a full attack + natural without a problem! Just as good. Link: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070410a ...! Am I the only one that remembers that article differently? In fact, here it is: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a Does Skip mean to imply that monks, unlike other creatures, don't need to use a limb to make an unarmed strike? So monks are the only creatures in the world incapable of kicking someone? That's the only way I can interpret what he says: he gives an example of a nalfeshnee, who loses a claw attack in order to make unarmed strikes, but a lizardfolk monk, in the next article, doesn't. Color me very confused.
lonewolf 08-15-07, 04:53 PM	@MWB: actually that is right of the PHB: A monks attacks may be with either fists interchangeably, or even from elbows, knees and feet. This means that a monk can even make unarmed strikes with her hands full.
Zevox 08-15-07, 04:56 PM	...! Am I the only one that remembers that article differently? In fact, here it is: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a Does Skip mean to imply that monks, unlike other creatures, don't need to use a limb to make an unarmed strike? So monks are the only creatures in the world incapable of kicking someone? That's the only way I can interpret what he says: he gives an example of a nalfeshnee, who loses a claw attack in order to make unarmed strikes, but a lizardfolk monk, in the next article, doesn't. Color me very confused. Thats about par for the course with Skip. Contradicts not only the RAW, but himself as well. Its not like I asked for us to stop using his articles with no reason, you know... Zevox
MindWandererB 08-15-07, 05:08 PM	@MWB: actually that is right of the PHB: Yeah, but do they really mean to imply than non-monks can't kick? That's just silly. In fact, the grapple rules suggest pretty clearly that you can make an unarmed strike without any limbs at all, monk or no.
Vathelokai 08-15-07, 06:18 PM	Hey, Vath? Why don't you have Auburn summon a hippogriff with a SM II and see if it can't get a 19-20 before it dies? Auburn could help by truestriking a thrown rock or something, or by flanking it. It could be down to just a few hp. P.S. buy her a dagger. hippogriffs don't have enough hd to get DR, thus they can't pass the half fiends DR. I would have to roll a 20 and then max dmg to do anything at all. EDIT: I see Telin already answered for me.
TelinArtho 08-15-07, 10:37 PM	AFAIK, Sdentch the angelic is a complete rebuild with no rule-wise connection to the old Sdentch. I am fully aware. However, she did have a full quest and a miniquest since the rebuild - and they are not linked to her sheet.
TheMagister 08-15-07, 11:11 PM	I am fully aware. However, she did have a full quest and a miniquest since the rebuild - and they are not linked to her sheet. Whoops. I'll fix that sometime with Telin's approval.
NiQil 08-15-07, 11:21 PM	So anyone know what the deal is with the D&D home page? All I can get is a page that says "4DVENTURE" with a countdown timer that has like 19 hours on it. Could this be a precursor to a 4.0 announcement? Or is it something else?
Zevox 08-15-07, 11:25 PM	So anyone know what the deal is with the D&D home page? All I can get is a page that says "4DVENTURE" with a countdown timer that has like 19 hours on it. Could this be a precursor to a 4.0 announcement? Or is it something else? *frowns* I'm afraid it does look that way, doesn't it? Thats just the word "adventure" with the number 4 in place of an upper-case "A", and I can hardly think of anything else they'd use something like that for. Zevox
TelinArtho 08-15-07, 11:37 PM	Whoops. I'll fix that sometime with Telin's approval. You can fix your sheet at any time - I've already grabbed the copy for the campaign.
NiQil 08-15-07, 11:41 PM	I've confirmed that it is...there are posts in other areas of the Community forums that have screenshots and stuff from a 4E forum that was available for a small time before it was locked...I've been looking at screen shots of things that they had in there... We'll have to keep an eye on that, since at some point in the future (hopefully later rather than sooner), we will have to make a decision as to whether or not to revamp this forum to the new edition in the distant future when 4E is up and running for awhile. On a lighter note, I did see someone mention that psionics is now being incorporated into the core material....though I couldn't confirm that anywhere else (at least not so far).
Zevox 08-15-07, 11:58 PM	We'll have to keep an eye on that, since at some point in the future (hopefully later rather than sooner), we will have to make a decision as to whether or not to revamp this forum to the new edition in the distant future when 4E is up and running for awhile. Indeed. I wonder just how long we're looking at before that is out? I wasn't even around for 3.0, so I've never experienced an edition shift before, not sure how much warning there is. On a lighter note, I did see someone mention that psionics is now being incorporated into the core material....though I couldn't confirm that anywhere else (at least not so far). Well that sounds good at least - I'm one of those who considers the XPH the fourth core book, so if thats being made official, it'll be one thing I'll like anyway. Zevox
waywreth 08-16-07, 12:09 AM	The shift from 3.0 to 3.5 caused a great deal of confusion and upset retailers who were developing books based on a ruleset that changed pretty fast. From what I read they were planning to give it a year from launch, so if this is indeed 4th edition, GenCon would be the announcement with the launch next year at GenCon. This is of course just my guess. Oh and a screenshot of the forums from another board. http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/8928/wizards4ess6.gif
NiQil 08-16-07, 12:12 AM	Indeed. I wonder just how long we're looking at before that is out? I wasn't even around for 3.0, so I've never experienced an edition shift before, not sure how much warning there is. Well that sounds good at least - I'm one of those who considers the XPH the fourth core book, so if thats being made official, it'll be one thing I'll like anyway. Zevox Most people are estimating that the 4E announcement will occur at GenCon this year and we will start seeing new product sometime next year. This seems to be supported by the book release schedule, which shows the last D&D sourcebook (The Rules Compendium) being issued in November, and no new sourcebooks being annouced at all for the first quarter of '08. It also appears that Greyhawk is being relegated to a no-longer-supported setting, as the screen shots that I saw for those locked forums show it listed in the "Other Campaign settings" forum along with Dragonlance and Planescape and others...it appears that they will now just have a generic base setting and then have the Realms and Eberron as specific campaign world settings. Keep in mind, however, that this is only based on what I have seen screen shots off, so this could be way off base.
Zevox 08-16-07, 12:16 AM	Most people are estimating that the 4E announcement will occur at GenCon this year and we will start seeing new product sometime next year. This seems to be supported by the book release schedule, which shows the last D&D sourcebook (The Rules Compendium) being issued in November, and no new sourcebooks being annouced at all for the first quarter of '08. It also appears that Greyhawk is being relegated to a no-longer-supported setting, as the screen shots that I saw for those locked forums show it listed in the "Other Campaign settings" forum along with Dragonlance and Planescape and others...it appears that they will now just have a generic base setting and then have the Realms and Eberron as specific campaign world settings. Keep in mind, however, that this is only based on what I have seen screen shots off, so this could be way off base. Makes sense though - I know I've seen many Greyhawk fans in the basic D&D and Realms forums saying that was basically the case in all but name even now, with the supposed "default setting" Greyhawk being nothing but a hallow shadow of the real thing, while the Realms and Eberron got all the true setting love. Wouldn't surprise me in the least if that became the official policy if thats true. Zevox
Rauul 08-16-07, 12:27 AM	Makes sense though - I know I've seen many Greyhawk fans in the basic D&D and Realms forums saying that was basically the case in all but name even now, with the supposed "default setting" Greyhawk being nothing but a hallow shadow of the real thing, while the Realms and Eberron got all the true setting love. Wouldn't surprise me in the least if that became the official policy if thats true. Zevox Wonder how much of the 4th edition will be Open Source.... Either way it looks to be a Year before we have to decide to convert the forum.. I hope..
TheMagister 08-16-07, 01:38 AM	You can fix your sheet at any time - I've already grabbed the copy for the campaign. All done.
MindWandererB 08-16-07, 02:54 AM	Well, I can definitely say some things as far as CoCo will go. We will definitely not switch over to any new ruleset until there's an online SRD to go with it. That's basically the mission statement of the CoCo. As for whether we'll ever retire the 3.5 version of CoCo, it'll depend on how well 4e does, and how closely compatible with 3.5 it is. If it's a fairly minor update mechanically (as 3.0 to 3.5 was), we'll probably make the change as soon as there's a complete online SRD. If it's a major change, we'll definitely retain the 3.5 edition, possibly running both editions at once. If 4e doesn't do well, though, we'll probably change nothing here at all. Alas, my mod privileges aren't enough to get me in to the secret forum--I only get special treatment for the GM forum. I'll find out in 15.5 hours the same as the rest of you.
Vathelokai 08-16-07, 06:50 AM	Last rumor I heard was that the rule changes were minor; and are mostly being tested in the run of the new StarWars system (Saga I think they are calling it). If that's true, the changes are -higher number of base starting hp -every class has a 'talent' choice; similar to how rangers can pick ranged or two-weapon talent. At least, that's all I've seen different. But I didn't read the whole combat rules.
hogarth 08-16-07, 07:30 AM	Well, a 4th edition was inevitable. As long as they keep it as small as the difference between 3.0 and 3.5 (not counting psionics!!), it shouldn't be a big problem. On another note, I'm working on a new character: Pander Skunk-eye. I don't have much experience with non-spellcasters, so any advice would be appreciated. The big weak spot is probably his AC; hopefully riding for cover and a wand of CLW will help a bit, but I'm not sure.
templer10 08-16-07, 08:43 AM	On another note, I'm working on a new character: Pander Skunk-eye. I don't have much experience with non-spellcasters, so any advice would be appreciated. The big weak spot is probably his AC; hopefully riding for cover and a wand of CLW will help a bit, but I'm not sure. 16 AC is liable to get you killed really really quickly.... Get heavy wooden shield at the very least and some heavier armor - if you are a mounted charcter then use it - also some backup mounts wouldnt hurt if you got the cash. p.s - get animal companion trained for combat riding.
Hirumajoe 08-16-07, 09:10 AM	16 AC is liable to get you killed really really quickly.... Get heavy wooden shield at the very least and some heavier armor - if you are a mounted charcter then use it - also some backup mounts wouldnt hurt if you got the cash. p.s - get animal companion trained for combat riding. He can't get heavier armor if he wants to use the ranger abilities (i.e. Rapid Shot). And mithril medium armors are out since he's a druid. A dragonhide buckler or darkwood buckler (assuming you can get them made) might be a good choice, since you can use that with a bow without penalty. I do agree the combat riding package on the Animal companion would be good.
McJarvis 08-16-07, 09:32 AM	Alas, my mod privileges aren't enough to get me in to the secret forum--I only get special treatment for the GM forum. I'll find out in 15.5 hours the same as the rest of you. All the same, I think I owe you some credits for a prediction I made in chat the other night. [how ironic is the timing of it? :-) ] Here's to hoping they fix the "touch attack problem".
hogarth 08-16-07, 09:52 AM	He can't get heavier armor if he wants to use the ranger abilities (i.e. Rapid Shot). And mithril medium armors are out since he's a druid. Actually, I'm not ruling out wearing metal armor some day. He'd lose his level 2 druid spellcasting (so he'd be forced to pre-cast a couple of Goodberry spells before putting it on), but that's about it. For now I want to stick with scrolls rather than forking over the money for a wand -- Telin has said that he thinks a druid in metal armor can't use wands, but I'm not so sure about that. Other AC thoughts in the future are Gloves of Dexterity and a wand of Barkskin, but that doesn't help him now. Maybe some potions of Shield of Faith or tattoos of Force Screen might help, but those seem a little expensive to use every battle. On a personal note, my experience so far has been that a high AC is a little overrated; getting a way to kill opponents quickly is more important. So if he can either get someone in a grapple or hit them with a Huge shillelagh once or twice (4d6+10 damage) before dying, he might be O.K. I'll find out soon, I guess. The animal companion's tricks will be Combat Riding + Pin, I think. I also need to buy him some arrows, of course.
templer10 08-16-07, 10:10 AM	Actually, I'm not ruling out wearing metal armor some day. He'd lose his level 2 druid spellcasting (so he'd be forced to pre-cast a couple of Goodberry spells before putting it on), but that's about it. For now I want to stick with scrolls rather than forking over the money for a wand -- Telin has said that he thinks a druid in metal armor can't use wands, but I'm not so sure about that. Other AC thoughts in the future are Gloves of Dexterity and a wand of Barkskin, but that doesn't help him now. Maybe some potions of Shield of Faith or tattoos of Force Screen might help, but those seem a little expensive to use every battle. On a personal note, my experience so far has been that a high AC is a little overrated; getting a way to kill opponents quickly is more important. So if he can either get someone in a grapple or hit them with a Huge shillelagh once or twice (4d6+10 damage) before dying, he might be O.K. I'll find out soon, I guess. The animal companion's tricks will be Combat Riding + Pin, I think. I also need to buy him some arrows, of course. a decen mounted archer can kill you without breaking a sweat in ECL 3 - you wont catch him and he shoots better then you. p.s - char 6? that's just asking to get ego whipped...
hogarth 08-16-07, 10:18 AM	a decen mounted archer can kill you without breaking a sweat in ECL 3 - you wont catch him and he shoots better then you. p.s - char 6? that's just asking to get ego whipped... A camel with Longstrider is as fast as a light horse -- it might be possible to catch up. But that's just a fact of life: someone who is faster with a better ranged attack will usually beat you. I'm considering getting Deflect Arrows later on, but I'm not sure how useful it would be (or if he'll even get that far). As far as the low Cha goes, there's not much a person can do against a determined Ego Whipper, so why worry about it? :)
Rauul 08-16-07, 12:31 PM	Last rumor I heard was that the rule changes were minor; and are mostly being tested in the run of the new StarWars system (Saga I think they are calling it). If that's true, the changes are -higher number of base starting hp -every class has a 'talent' choice; similar to how rangers can pick ranged or two-weapon talent. At least, that's all I've seen different. But I didn't read the whole combat rules. Well lets hope they get rid of the Psionic/ Magic Transparency, Balance Psionics so it is inline with Divine/Arcane powers.. Get rid of Sonic Substitution.. And Clear up their wording on ALOT of things.. but time will tell...
lonewolf 08-16-07, 12:39 PM	Well lets hope they get rid of the Psionic/ Magic Transparency, Balance Psionics so it is inline with Divine/Arcane powers.. Get rid of Sonic Substitution.. And Clear up their wording on ALOT of things.. but time will tell... Well, sonic substitution was removed with 3.5, but since only its 3.0 version is OGL, its still legal in CoCo...
waywreth 08-16-07, 01:21 PM	More 4th Edition info from Gencon and other threads/boards. Please note this is all stuff I've found so none of it is confirmed. Today, Wizards of the Coast confirms that the new edition will launch in May 2008 with the release of the D&D Player’s Handbook. The 4th Edition Dungeons & Dragons game includes elements familiar to current D&D players, including illustrated rulebooks and pre-painted plastic miniatures. Also releasing next year will be new web-based tools and online community forums through the brand-new Dungeons & Dragons Insider (D&D Insider) digital offering. D&D Insider lowers the barriers of entry for new players while simultaneously offering the depth of play that appeal to veteran players. The 4th Edition rules emphasize faster game play, offer exciting new character options, and reduce the amount of “prep time” needed to run the game. D&D Insider includes a character creator that lets players design and equip their D&D characters, dungeon- and adventure-building tools for Dungeon Masters, online magazine content, and a digital game table that lets you play 24/7 on the internet — the perfect option for anyone who can’t find time to get together. “We’ve been gathering player feedback for eight years,” said Bill Slavicsek, R&D Director of Roleplaying and Miniatures Games at Wizards of the Coast. “Fourth Edition streamlines parts of the D&D game that are too complex, while enhancing the overall play experience. At its heart, it’s still a tabletop game experience. However, D&D Insider makes it easier for players to create characters, run their games, and interact with the rest of the D&D community.” Wizards of the Coast will release two 4th Edition preview books in December and January — Wizards Presents: Classes and Races and Wizards Presents: Worlds and Monsters. The full scope of 4th Edition books, miniatures, and adventures will be available in the spring and summer of 2008. Official Press Release? (http://theminiaturespage.com/news/519193/)
MindWandererB 08-16-07, 02:10 PM	Interesting, very interesting. However, the last I heard, D&D Insider was going to have a subscription fee, which will probably make it a lot less popular than they'd imagine. One of the main reasons I love D&D compared to other, comparable games is the lack of "maintainance" costs.
McJarvis 08-16-07, 03:17 PM	One of the main reasons I love D&D compared to other, comparable games is the lack of "maintainance" costs. This is something I appreciate about D&D: but having to spend money on it certainly wouldn't diminish my love for it. I highly doubt it will ever get as expensive as buying a new console+buying games for console+ buying online subscription to console service, so pretty much anything they do is cool by me.
McJarvis 08-16-07, 04:57 PM	PS-> I'm guessing that the release of 4E would be a good reason to think about delaying the implimentation of Mind's Eye content. [needless risk of blowup]
MindWandererB 08-16-07, 05:32 PM	PS-> I'm guessing that the release of 4E would be a good reason to think about delaying the implimentation of Mind's Eye content. [needless risk of blowup] I think it got voted down de facto anyway. Sorry about the work you put into it. But you're right--with a release date only 9 months from now, adding new "game" content isn't a great idea. With any luck, we'll have the subgames (guild and community) hammered out and going smoothly by then.
SauroGrenom 08-16-07, 06:44 PM	I wonder what happens to us if/when the whole D&D online thing happens... We're basically doing a skeleton version of the services that are likely to offer, only we do it for free on a volunteer basis. We don't have all the new character classes, and all the races, and optional content, but we have an online game setting where we play D&D...Clearly it's a competition of a sort with this new subscriber service being suggested. From what I understand, WoTC has been changing things recently to edge out competition for their planned new content... That's probably a factor in Dungeon and Dragon magazine's not being allowed to continue their publications. There was an electronic rules version who also lost their license (Code Monkey or some such). The shift to a new boards could also have something to do with the community restructuring. They hired a new community liason guy a few months ago. It looks like the business model is going to change. All the signs point to something going on... I just don't know what it is or how it will effect us. Also the OGL is likely to either stay the same (and thus trap us in 3rd edition) or change in some unpredictable way that could make our operations illegal. This is a huge unknown. Unknown is just that... could be good, could be bad.
Erithmu 08-16-07, 06:53 PM	Macbrea and Mitza are at Gencon, so I'm hoping that they will have some info when they get back. The countdown is over and basically the Wizards site crashed due to a Denial of Service type of bombardment from the community. I think I'll just wait for the dust to settle and see what comes out on the other end. Otherwise 4E forums (http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=686)
waywreth 08-16-07, 07:24 PM	Macbrea and Mitza are at Gencon, so I'm hoping that they will have some info when they get back. The countdown is over and basically the Wizards site crashed due to a Denial of Service type of bombardment from the community. I think I'll just wait for the dust to settle and see what comes out on the other end. Otherwise 4E forums (http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=686) Gencon Announcement: Today, Wizards of the Coast confirms that the new edition will launch in May 2008 with the release of the D&D Player’s Handbook. The 4th Edition Dungeons & Dragons game includes elements familiar to current D&D players, including illustrated rulebooks and pre-painted plastic miniatures. Also releasing next year will be new web-based tools and online community forums through the brand-new Dungeons & Dragons Insider (D&D Insider) digital offering. D&D Insider lowers the barriers of entry for new players while simultaneously offering the depth of play that appeal to veteran players. The 4th Edition rules emphasize faster game play, offer exciting new character options, and reduce the amount of “prep time” needed to run the game. D&D Insider includes a character creator that lets players design and equip their D&D characters, dungeon- and adventure-building tools for Dungeon Masters, online magazine content, and a digital game table that lets you play 24/7 on the internet — the perfect option for anyone who can’t find time to get together. “We’ve been gathering player feedback for eight years,” said Bill Slavicsek, R&D Director of Roleplaying and Miniatures Games at Wizards of the Coast. “Fourth Edition streamlines parts of the D&D game that are too complex, while enhancing the overall play experience. At its heart, it’s still a tabletop game experience. However, D&D Insider makes it easier for players to create characters, run their games, and interact with the rest of the D&D community.” Wizards of the Coast will release two 4th Edition preview books in December and January — Wizards Presents: Classes and Races and Wizards Presents: Worlds and Monsters. The full scope of 4th Edition books, miniatures, and adventures will be available in the spring and summer of 2008.
McJarvis 08-17-07, 09:30 AM	This is a huge unknown. Unknown is just that... could be good, could be bad. I don't really see any "bad" side to this. We've had our run(and maybe we'll get to keep on doing our thing), but does anyone really expect CoCo to last forever? Much like all gaming communities...it will come and go. There's nothing "bad" about that. It just is what it is.
hogarth 08-17-07, 09:46 AM	Interesting, very interesting. However, the last I heard, D&D Insider was going to have a subscription fee, which will probably make it a lot less popular than they'd imagine. One of the main reasons I love D&D compared to other, comparable games is the lack of "maintainance" costs. Well, I haven't heard anyone suggest that Gleemax.com will have a subscription fee and from what I've seen it looks like they'll be supporting play-by-post stuff like the CoCo. I could be 100% wrong, of course.
TelinArtho 08-17-07, 11:36 AM	@Guildlords - did I miss something? I don't see the weekly actions posted for Aug 15. Just working on updating the stuff for CEF and I need the post to link to.
Erithmu 08-17-07, 12:43 PM	Where are the rules for alignment relocation in terms of "always" "usually" and how far those can be modified in terms of movement away from those spots. EX: can a usually LE be moved to TN w/out credit cost?
hogarth 08-17-07, 12:52 PM	Where are the rules for alignment relocation in terms of "always" "usually" and how far those can be modified in terms of movement away from those spots. EX: can a usually LE be moved to TN w/out credit cost? It's just changing the alignment of a creature that says "Always LE" that costs credits. Note that Istima has a non-CG pegasus, for instance.
Erithmu 08-17-07, 02:07 PM	Ok ... a quick reading here ... Does Energy Current 'require' two initial targets, or can you only have one target. I can see the reading both ways but I'm leaning towards needing two targets mostly due to the 'targets' entry in the SRD.
Zevox 08-17-07, 02:09 PM	@Guildlords - did I miss something? I don't see the weekly actions posted for Aug 15. Just working on updating the stuff for CEF and I need the post to link to. Woops! I meant to do that yesterday, but completely forgot about it! :embarrass I'll get on that right away... Zevox
Sjiggie 08-17-07, 02:15 PM	Ok ... a quick reading here ... Does Energy Current 'require' two initial targets, or can you only have one target. I can see the reading both ways but I'm leaning towards needing two targets mostly due to the 'targets' entry in the SRD. I think it can be manifested on only 1 target because of this sentence in the disciption Energy also arcs off the primary foe to strike one additional foe that is initially within 15 feet of the primary foe, or that subsequently moves within 15 feet of the primary foe while the duration lasts So the current doesn't need to have 2 targets but can strike at two targets. Sjiggie
TelinArtho 08-17-07, 02:55 PM	@Rith - I would tend to agree that it doesn't need a secondary target, but that it is an option.
Erithmu 08-17-07, 03:07 PM	One Energy Current to Kraegin then ...
TelinArtho 08-17-07, 03:09 PM	For the improvements to Guardians - do I pick one for a particular guardian or do I get to choose one when the guardian is used? I'm mostly asking because I want to know if I should mark it down as Guardian: Menu C or Guardian: <item from Menu C>, but I also am curious if it can change between uses of the guardian.
MindWandererB 08-17-07, 03:55 PM	For the improvements to Guardians - do I pick one for a particular guardian or do I get to choose one when the guardian is used? I'm mostly asking because I want to know if I should mark it down as Guardian: Menu C or Guardian: <item from Menu C>, but I also am curious if it can change between uses of the guardian. You're supposed to choose the ability when you spend the points. Having learned more about 4e and D&D Insider, I can make a couple of confident statements. CoCo 3.5 will live on for some time. It will probably die out eventually due to conversion to 4e, but we'll keep it going as long as we can. As you know, CoCo requires special dispensation to even exist. I do not know whether the new forums will support 4e-based forum games, since that competes with Insider to a certain degree. If we are allowed to continue as a forum game, we will. If not, we will likely be able to find a home on Insider. I personally have not yet decided whether to subscribe to Insider--I never pay a subscription fee for anything if I can help it--so if we do move there, we may need a new GM. I also don't know if Insider will be able to support a player base like the one we have. However, those who subscribe will have new pitlording options--it may even be possible, based on the software, to run fights without a pitlord. We'll have to see. Basically, we don't know enough to make many real decisions, but the one thing I can rule out is an "upgrade." The 3.5 CoCo will not close down voluntarily.
mucki 08-18-07, 09:37 AM	Greetings everyone! I am fairly new here, but I already have heard a lot about this arena from lonewolf so I decided to go ahead and try it out for myself. Krusk, my first character is not really meant to live very long (he has no skills, and very unbalanced stats, so i doubt he would scale well in higher levels) but hopefully can win a fight or two before retiring. If someone could look over the character sheet and check if everything is in order I would really appreciate it. I also have two rule questions: a) does mobility work against the attack of opportunity of overrun ? I would think that the attack of opportunity is triggered by the move action not the overrun itself, so it should work ? b) when a person is standing up from prone and provokes an attack of opportunity, is this person still considered prone for that attack or already standing ? I wish you all good luck in your respective battles and much fun all around, mucki :)
Abyssal Stalker 08-18-07, 10:35 AM	Welcome to CoCo! As to your questions: a) I don't see why it shouldn't work. Description of Overrun clearly says that moving to another creatures space is what causes the AoO and Mobility gives the bonus when you move out of or within a threatened area. Someone might argue that moving into another creatures square is a special action that should be treated differently, but I don't find rules that would support this. b) This is easy. Standing up provokes the AoO and the AoO happens right before the action that triggers it so the character is still prone. So you can't trip a character that tries to stand up.
whitebaron 08-18-07, 11:18 AM	Well, this seems to become the week of vienna-invasion. ;) I'm also new to this arena, same irl-rpg-group as lonewolf and mucki, so actually not much surprise that we come from the same area :) this is my first: Gwerdan "Twofist" Grummler we'll see how it works out. if you like and have time, drop me a line about flaws or mistakes, as this forum-based character sheet takes some getting used to. i too, have a question: i know what i would do as a gm, but is there any real rule about this? imagine a char with nice jump, speed, grapple checks. i want to do a charge, as part of the movement of the charge jump up to some flying or climbing character, and then, grapple it as result. if it cannot be done without charging, even running start+jumping as move, then grappling would be nice. still, i found no entry in the srd or phb about this. ps: i'm excited to see my first fight :)
Vathelokai 08-18-07, 11:20 AM	Greetings everyone! I am fairly new here, but I already have heard a lot about this arena from lonewolf so I decided to go ahead and try it out for myself. Krusk, my first character is not really meant to live very long (he has no skills, and very unbalanced stats, so i doubt he would scale well in higher levels) but hopefully can win a fight or two before retiring. If someone could look over the character sheet and check if everything is in order I would really appreciate it. I also have two rule questions: a) does mobility work against the attack of opportunity of overrun ? I would think that the attack of opportunity is triggered by the move action not the overrun itself, so it should work ? b) when a person is standing up from prone and provokes an attack of opportunity, is this person still considered prone for that attack or already standing ? I wish you all good luck in your respective battles and much fun all around, mucki :) Hello and welcome. Abyssal is right on the above (as far as I know). So, why not go full orc?
mucki 08-18-07, 11:20 AM	Thanks to both of you :) I don't want to trip him, i just wanted to make sure he still has -4 AC against me ;-) As for Orc: No real reason except that as a long time rpg player i just feel that orc is something you kill, not play ;-) A half-orc is bad enough, but he is at least partly human ...
Vathelokai 08-18-07, 11:29 AM	Well, this seems to become the week of vienna-invasion. ;) I'm also new to this arena, same irl-rpg-group as lonewolf and mucki, so actually not much surprise that we come from the same area :) this is my first: Gwerdan "Twofist" Grummler we'll see how it works out. if you like and have time, drop me a line about flaws or mistakes, as this forum-based character sheet takes some getting used to. i too, have a question: i know what i would do as a gm, but is there any real rule about this? imagine a char with nice jump, speed, grapple checks. i want to do a charge, as part of the movement of the charge jump up to some flying or climbing character, and then, grapple it as result. if it cannot be done without charging, even running start+jumping as move, then grappling would be nice. still, i found no entry in the srd or phb about this. ps: i'm excited to see my first fight :) Welcome to the fray! I'd change the skate power for empty mind (or maybe grip of iron if you're intent on grappling). Powerstones of skate are pretty cheap, but those immediate actions only work if you know them. The psionic weapon feat works on monk fists (the last I heard; may have changed), so that feat is much better (you can use it on any of your melee attacks). As for the charge-jump, the wording of charge keeps it from working. A skill check is by definition a distraction, so no jumping durring a charge. You can jump and do the touch attack to start a grapple though. Using expansion for reach and some bonus's to jump it's definitely viable. I'd increase that speed though, if you want it to work.
whitebaron 08-18-07, 11:47 AM	I'd change the skate power for empty mind (or maybe grip of iron if you're intent on grappling). Powerstones of skate are pretty cheap, but those immediate actions only work if you know them. i thought about which power to use, as being (and probably staying for a longer time) monk provides a fairly good will save, i won't need it too often. maybe i should really go grip of iron instead, since i just re-read that monk speed is an enhancement bonus too, and this was just wrongly entered in pcgen... The psionic weapon feat works on monk fists (the last I heard; may have changed), so that feat is much better (you can use it on any of your melee attacks). i checked, and i believe you are right. which renders psionic fist imo completely useless to normal characters - i'll switch. @charge: thnx for the clarification. ps: i already had a speedy character in mind. :) thank you for the friendly welcome. --edit: already changed to fist of iron + psionic weapon, since speeds won't stack and skate would be useless soon.
Vathelokai 08-18-07, 12:21 PM	i thought about which power to use, as being (and probably staying for a longer time) monk provides a fairly good will save, i won't need it too often. maybe i should really go grip of iron instead, since i just re-read that monk speed is an enhancement bonus too, and this was just wrongly entered in pcgen...If you're looking for more speed, there's speed of thought feat (insight), expid retreat (would need a custom item, but has higher enhancement bonus), barbarian (untyped)... I can't think of anything else except spell effects that are enhancements. I suppose there is also the xeph racial burst power (competence), but changing race is a bit much. i checked, and i believe you are right. which renders psionic fist imo completely useless to normal characters - i'll switch. Psi-fist works for non monk melee types and for users of natural weapons. Not completely useless in my opinion. Best of luck. EDIT: Something else to keep in mind - regaining your psifocus is a full round action that provokes Attacks of Opportunity (recently clarified in "Sage Advice"). See the Directory in my Sig for more details.
Airwhale 08-18-07, 03:01 PM	A rules question: If Person A gores before person B, and person B readys their action, can he move in responce to person As action in the following round?
Vathelokai 08-18-07, 03:03 PM	Yes; the ready continues until person B's next turn.
Airwhale 08-18-07, 03:26 PM	Groovy. Thanks!
templer10 08-18-07, 03:30 PM	I remmber something about Spells casting from scrolls received the benefit of Feats like spell focus and such Am i remmbering correctly and if so does it apply to class features also? (like red wizards).
Airwhale 08-18-07, 03:34 PM	Another rules question, sorry: does evasion work against cold psionic affects? (i.e. cold energy missle, which involves a fort. saving throw)
SauroGrenom 08-18-07, 03:39 PM	Ok. So PSI had all these guys go on a long campaign. It was 18 weeks or so. I'm trying to figure out how to deal with this as a guildmaster. We've been kind of screwed by it, and we could potentially gain some benefits from it. So all our members were leveled out of the useful range. I'd forgotten about the 33% completion bonus, and w/o that they would all have been only ECL10. They are all ECL 12 now, so only 3 of the guildmembers who didn't go on the campaign can be used till I build a bunch of rooms that will eat all my SS in the headquarter, and everyone is crafting anyway for weeks. Meh. But putting my hardships aside, I get to choose either a special trade route, or a bunch of conscripts. The Guildhall lists some mechanics, but there are some things not clear to me. The guys who went on the mission were 2x ECL7 and 2x ECL8. They came back 4x ECL12. And the whole thing lasted 18 weeks, although it was planned to last 15 weeks. So the mechanics of the rewards involves the total "Guild ECL's". Is that the total returning ECL or the total leaving ECL? It makes a difference between 30 and 48. Also is the duration 15 or 18 weeks? I'm liking the idea of a set of regiments. I can recruit a great many of them, and then destroy a PMG or two. I'm totally getting tired of all the PMG attacks... With the PSI Cerebral Guard, and either 30 or 48 of the conscripts guys, then we can destroy several of the PMG's. If it were possible I'd totally kick Denth into the stone age again, but they aren't even a PMG anymore... Nuts. Can you use regiments to clear up the Highwaymen? That's another option.
SauroGrenom 08-18-07, 03:40 PM	Evasion only helps against effects with a reflex save, so cold psionic effects are not applicable.
SauroGrenom 08-18-07, 03:42 PM	I remmber something about Spells casting from scrolls received the benefit of Feats like spell focus and such Am i remmbering correctly and if so does it apply to class features also? (like red wizards). That's a question that hasn't been cleared up. The original take by CoCO was that feats and class features don't apply to magic items (scrolls/wands/Universal items). This was overturned in the sense of feats applying to items. As to whether class features apply to items, that's not clear. Take it to the courtroom to get a final decision.
templer10 08-18-07, 03:51 PM	That's a question that hasn't been cleared up. The original take by CoCO was that feats and class features don't apply to magic items (scrolls/wands/Universal items). This was overturned in the sense of feats applying to items. As to whether class features apply to items, that's not clear. Take it to the courtroom to get a final decision. CAn't need to run fight - ill assume that if feats does then class features does unless an elder vote overrule's me (and save DC on scrolls are pathetic as is...)
Airwhale 08-18-07, 03:59 PM	Last question, sorry for not asking all of these at once. Are the Divine rules considered fair game for the CoCo? (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/divine.html)
Eamane 08-18-07, 04:01 PM	@Sauro If it'll help, I haven't tossed Eamane in a guild yet... she's a psion. I was planing on going Cerebremancer, so I thought TAO would be an appropriate guild, but if Psi needs characters to go on missions and such, I'd rather be where I'll be of use/get RP stuff.
SauroGrenom 08-18-07, 04:14 PM	@Sauro If it'll help, I haven't tossed Eamane in a guild yet... she's a psion. I was planing on going Cerebremancer, so I thought TAO would be an appropriate guild, but if Psi needs characters to go on missions and such, I'd rather be where I'll be of use/get RP stuff.Raskos the Guildmaster over in PSI is also a Cerebremancer. He's the only one in the city right now. You're welcome to join. I can definitely use a new guy at lower ECL in many ways. I can RP a bit, but I won't be able to do a ton of IC stuff every week. Perhaps we can use you to defend against Denth attack in the next few weeks. Monsters at ECL4 or less are not as scary as those at ECL11... So you're much more likely to be able to beat them.
Vathelokai 08-18-07, 04:18 PM	No complaints from the Arcane Order on that one. We're nearly full right now. PSI and TAO have no issues with each other, so if it fits your RP, you could probably move Eamane back and forth between the two a couple times.
SauroGrenom 08-18-07, 04:47 PM	Last question, sorry for not asking all of these at once. Are the Divine rules considered fair game for the CoCo? (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/divine.html) Yes divine content is fair game.
MindWandererB 08-18-07, 07:12 PM	i too, have a question: i know what i would do as a gm, but is there any real rule about this? imagine a char with nice jump, speed, grapple checks. i want to do a charge, as part of the movement of the charge jump up to some flying or climbing character, and then, grapple it as result. if it cannot be done without charging, even running start+jumping as move, then grappling would be nice. still, i found no entry in the srd or phb about this.Welcome to you, and to mucki as well! Just curious--is there some sort of local taboo people in your area have against capital letters? The jumping charge is actually addressed in the FAQ: Can my character make a jumping charge attack, either with a long jump or a high jump? Do I need the feats Fleet of Foot or Psionic Charge? If I can make a high jump as part of a charge, can I use it in conjunction with Battle Jump? You can make a long jump as part of a charge. You must still follow all the normal rules for making a charge, such as moving in a straight line on the battle grid. This tactic can let you avoid some of the normal restrictions against charging. If a square of difficult terrain is between you and your charge target, you could possibly jump over it with a long jump. (The fact that your jump means that your movement isn’t a perfectly straight line doesn’t make the charge illegal—you’re still moving in a straight line as far as the battle grid is concerned, and the jump isn’t really changing your direction.) Making a high jump as part of a charge is trickier. It’s hard to imagine a significant high jump that doesn’t change your direction; after all, you’re now moving vertically rather than laterally. Furthermore, if you have to slow your movement at any point of the charge, you can’t make the charge. For instance, if you make a high jump toward a ledge as part of a charge, then have to pull yourself up to the ledge before continuing, that’s not a charge, it’s a move or a double move. It’s the same for the “hop up” maneuver described on page 77 in the Player’s Handbook: Since it counts as 10 feet of movement, you can’t perform such a maneuver as part of a charge. Fleet of Foot (found in the Player’s Guide to Faerûn) and Psionic Charge (from the Expanded Psionics Handbook) might make performing a high jump as part of a charge a little easier. Both feats allow a single change in direction of up to 90 degrees during the charge, which should be sufficient to allow you to make a high jump as part of a charge. Neither feat allows you to ignore the restrictions on slowed movement during a charge. If you’re capable of making a high jump that brings you at least 5 feet above an enemy, you could employ the Battle Jump feat (from Unapproachable East) without having to start at a higher location. Of course, that would require a Jump check result of at least 40 for a Medium opponent, so it’s out of reach of most characters. You’d also have to make the Jump check from adjacent to your foe, so it would provoke attacks of opportunity (since you’re moving upward out of a threatened square). All in all, it sounds like a pretty tricky maneuver, but cinematically very exciting indeed.
Vathelokai 08-18-07, 07:47 PM	The jumping charge is actually addressed in the FAQ: One of these days I ought to read that document...:mad:
Rauul 08-18-07, 08:25 PM	CAn't need to run fight - ill assume that if feats does then class features does unless an elder vote overrule's me (and save DC on scrolls are pathetic as is...) Benefit: Add +1 to the DC of your specialist school. You get a +1 to caster lv. checks to overcome spell resistance with spells of your specialist school. I assume it does since Psi's state it's as if you Manefest the power yourself (powerstones) and we do use Magic/Psionic Transparency..
hogarth 08-18-07, 08:28 PM	Welcome to you, and to mucki as well! Just curious--is there some sort of local taboo people in your area have against capital letters? In German, you have tons of capitalized words compared to English; maybe they're just erring on the side of caution. :) By the way, I'd also like to say "Willkommen Wieners"!
mucki 08-19-07, 03:42 AM	Just curious--is there some sort of local taboo people in your area have against capital letters? Well, as for me I am just a sloppy typer :P and my nickname is lowercase because it has always been that way :). As for things like "attack of opportunity" I am actually not really sure if they should be capitalized or not. I know names of places, people and things should be capitalized, but I am always a bit unsure if a term is considered a name just because it commonly means a specific thing (If you capitalize it how would a non-DnD player know that he is supposed to do so if he just accidentally uses this combination of words ??). By the way, I'd also like to say "Willkommen Wieners"! You know, reading this in an English context made me interpret this quite differently at first :P Aber Danke und Gruesse aus Wien :)
whitebaron 08-19-07, 08:30 AM	quite frankly, in english, i don't really bother most of the time with caps. there are quite some reasons for this: sloppyness, and used to writing much lowercase from chatting/programming. my nickname once used to be White Baron (yes, with space) - since this was quite complicated with the java-style capitalization in different forums, linux machines etc. , i simply dropped that too when removing the whitespace... @mucki: Attack of Opportunity should be capitalized, since its a term specific to D&D. But trust me, even native speakers have problems with the capitalization of terms in mid-sentence, as can be seen anywhere in the internet. @mindwanderer: do you mind people writing all lowercase, or was ist just a fun remark?
Callix 08-19-07, 08:37 AM	For some bizarre reason, the Battles of Gladius page won't load for me. The rest of the forums work fine, but that thread just comes up with a blank page. Wierd, huh?
hogarth 08-19-07, 08:45 AM	For some bizarre reason, the Battles of Gladius page won't load for me. The rest of the forums work fine, but that thread just comes up with a blank page. Wierd, huh? Try going to your "Options" and setting the number of posts displayed to 20/page or even 10/page. That usually works.
Vathelokai 08-19-07, 10:21 AM	@mindwanderer: do you mind people writing all lowercase, or was ist just a fun remark? Fun and curiosity.
Erithmu 08-19-07, 11:11 AM	I assume it does since Psi's state it's as if you Manefest the power yourself (powerstones) and we do use Magic/Psionic Transparency.. Thats part of the Tattoo Focus feat, not a red wizard class feature.
templer10 08-19-07, 02:15 PM	Quick question - classed Monsters use 25 point buy - correct?
hogarth 08-19-07, 03:05 PM	Quick question - classed Monsters use 25 point buy - correct? Monsters with levels in PC classes use the Elite array (15,14,13,12,10,8). Monsters with levels in NPC classes (only) use the Nonelite array (13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8).
Eamane 08-19-07, 03:12 PM	Canny Defense (Ex): When not wearing armor or using a shield, a duelist adds 1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) per duelist class level to her Dexterity bonus to modify Armor Class while wielding a melee weapon. If a duelist is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied her Dexterity bonus, she also loses this bonus. Would it functions in conjunction with a monk's unarmed attack? And presuming it works, is there any reason why it would stop working if the person was also wielding a ranged weapon? Just making sure my interpretation is accurate.
Vathelokai 08-19-07, 03:51 PM	Would [Dualist's Canny Defense class feature] functions in conjunction with a monk's unarmed attack? And presuming it works, is there any reason why it would stop working if the person was also wielding a ranged weapon? Just making sure my interpretation is accurate. A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons. Note that it only counts as a manufactured weapon for the purpose of enhancing or improving the fist as a weapon. It doesn't specify for any other purpose. I'd say no, RulesAsWritten, but I would allow it in a home game. May be worth taking to the Courtroom. Also: some of the dualist stuff would work, some wouldn't. The wording on if you need a weapon is not consistant.
whitebaron 08-19-07, 03:58 PM	if it works with unarmed strike, it works with full hands carrying whatever else. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. [...] A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons. the second part is a bit more tricky, since it states that its the same for spells and "effects". if a feat or class ability is an effect, i don't know. but i'd suppose so. can't look up the original wording in the phb though, as i only have the 3.0 version here.
Vathelokai 08-19-07, 04:05 PM	Class abilities are usually considered 'effects'. So it's a maybe. I'd double check the FAQ and head to the courtroom if you want to build it.
Eamane 08-19-07, 04:17 PM	So its a maybe, interesting. It wasn't the main point of the build I was looking at, so it's okay. What I really wanted to do was use canny defense with armor spikes, but that would require, you know, wearing armor -_- The main point of the build is to use the Renaissance Weapons in the DMG, since we have some rules for their use. (I'm sure I'm not the only one that wants to shoot people in the face, right? ^_^) Can anyone clarify if Craft: Firearms allows you to make (and thus have) explosives as well? The wording in the Rules of Gladius isn't very clear as it says that 'some' of the Renaissance weapons require exotic prof; which is the firearms. The explosives are the ones don't require a proficiency EDIT: Also, can Craft: Firearms be used to Earn Money? It's not listed among the variations of Craft that cannot be used thus. Second EDIT: Can Craft: Firearms be used to make gunpowder? If not, what craft skill would be applicable; Alchemy? <Considers moving this to the Court room, then does so>
MindWandererB 08-19-07, 07:51 PM	@mindwanderer: do you mind people writing all lowercase, or was ist just a fun remark?I was just noting the odd coincidence that you, mucki, and wayreth all know each other IRL and all have lowercase usernames.
waywreth 08-20-07, 12:26 AM	Actually it's waywreth with a "w" and I don't know them at all in real life. What brought you to that conclusion? And since I'm here, a question - my character leveled midcycle and got his leadership cohort. So do I have a naked (since I can't buy him anything yet) cohort with all his spell levels for the final fight? Thanks, Waywreth
NiQil 08-20-07, 12:29 AM	Actually it's waywreth with a "w" and I don't know them at all in real life. What brought you to that conclusion? And since I'm here, a question - my character leveled midcycle and got his leadership cohort. So do I have a naked (since I can't buy him anything yet) cohort with all his spell levels for the final fight? Thanks, Waywreth I believe he has you confused with lonewolf, who also shares a lowercase name and is (if memory serves) in their tt gaming group.
lonewolf 08-20-07, 01:11 AM	I believe he has you confused with lonewolf, who also shares a lowercase name and is (if memory serves) in their tt gaming group. Correct. I´d also like to greet mucki and WB here to CoCo. May your characters have better dice-luck than those in our TT-game.
MindWandererB 08-20-07, 01:20 AM	I believe he has you confused with lonewolf, who also shares a lowercase name and is (if memory serves) in their tt gaming group. Yes... I knew it was one of you, and I was too lazy to check the posts where they introduced themselves. And for some reason, I always have to check myself to make sure I included that second "w."
mucki 08-20-07, 03:45 AM	May your characters have better dice-luck than those in our TT-game. Knowing myself i deem that unlikely ;-) Ofc, having said that aloud here now, luck is bound to prove me wrong ....
hogarth 08-20-07, 06:49 AM	And since I'm here, a question - my character leveled midcycle and got his leadership cohort. So do I have a naked (since I can't buy him anything yet) cohort with all his spell levels for the final fight? I believe that's the case, although there may be some leniency for getting him/her a spell component pouch mid-cycle.
lonewolf 08-20-07, 08:26 AM	I have two conflicting rules that need to be clarified before I can run the Lord Lorian fight: Maximum Altitude: Although Gladius City has no roof that would limit vertical movement, the city watch has many towers in the city with spyglasses and magic observation tools, and one thing they don't like are fights on the streets. Any characters who ascends higher than 50ft will be spotted by the city watch who instantly sends epic wizards to take the perpetrator hostage. Effectively, a character who moves higher than 50ft loses the match, no matter if he flew there voluntarily or not. and Characters may not move off the edges of the map by any means, nor may they be moved off of them involuntarily. This is solely to make the pitlords' job managable. Any attempt to move anyone off the map will simply be ignored by the pitlord. Lord Lorian wants to use Telekinetic Maneuver to grapple them and move the grapple over 50ft height. Can anyone comment on that?
Vathelokai 08-20-07, 08:30 AM	The rule about edges of the map referes to the horizontal edges. For example, you could not bull rush someone off the edge of a map. The city has special rules about height, so Lorian can use that tactic.
lonewolf 08-20-07, 08:37 AM	makes sense thanks for the answer
waywreth 08-20-07, 09:02 AM	I believe that's the case, although there may be some leniency for getting him/her a spell component pouch mid-cycle. Thanks Hogarth.
whitebaron 08-20-07, 09:34 AM	Knowing myself i deem that unlikely ;-) Ofc, having said that aloud here now, luck is bound to prove me wrong .... knowing our luck, i'll bet the first fight is you vs me. i'm considering making a second char just in case so i dont have to fight only you :P
TelinArtho 08-20-07, 10:00 AM	Well then I'll consider this fair warning to our newcomers... beware of my quests...
SoulLord 08-20-07, 01:22 PM	Hi there I have a question that could involve both Denth campaigns What is a summoned creature? Summon monster: Yes Gate:??? Vrock using teleport of hs own free will: ??? Plannar summoning: ??? Vrock using his summon demon ability: ??? Summon planar ally: ??? Are there other ways a vrock could end up on the material plane that could be considered or not a summon?
Erithmu 08-20-07, 01:31 PM	Hi there I have a question that could involve both Denth campaigns What is a summoned creature? Summon monster: Yes agreed Gate: No in both cases, one makes a working gate, other is a calling effect Vrock using teleport of hs own free will: This is a vrock ability, and doesn't really make a determination of if the creature is summoned or called Plannar summoning: ??? Not sure what you mean here ... Vrock using his summon demon ability: Yes Summon planar ally: No, this is a calling, not summoning. I would say this extends to the planar binding line (Wiz/Sor variation) Are there other ways a vrock could end up on the material plane that could be considered or not a summon?Plane Shift Naturally occurring planar Gate DM rule 0 :D
whitebaron 08-20-07, 01:39 PM	Summon monster: Yes Gate: No Vrock using teleport of hs own free will: No since it doesnt change his plane Plannar summoning: Supposing it's Planar Binding: No Vrock using his summon demon ability: Yes Summon planar ally: Supposing it's Planar Ally: No aaah.... seems like i'm alway too slow. if in doubt, simply look at the spell school of the spell or the exact wording. if it says Conjuration(Summoning), it is summoned. if Conjuration(Calling), it is definitely not. @telin: knowing lonewolfs fights, definitely toughened me up. we'll see sometime, i guess. ;)
templer10 08-20-07, 02:16 PM	Does the Ability PENALTY to STR caued By ray of enfeeblemt stack with itself?
whitebaron 08-20-07, 02:24 PM	no, thats why it is not called damage, but penalty. else the spell would be totally overpowered for level 1.
TelinArtho 08-20-07, 02:26 PM	No it doesn't stack. I talked with Dr. Funk this weekend about it - he didn't know that when he wrote his tactics.
whitebaron 08-20-07, 02:35 PM	chaka! first time i beat someone on a rules question :D
TelinArtho 08-20-07, 02:43 PM	chaka! first time i beat someone on a rules question :D Just remember - it is not so important to be fast, but very important to be accurate. And I'll make sure to earmark an Osyluth for your future...
whitebaron 08-20-07, 03:22 PM	Just remember - it is not so important to be fast, but very important to be accurate. And I'll make sure to earmark an Osyluth for your future... cr9 seems somewhat overpowered for my poor ecl3 monk. :D btw: i got beat to the other replies because of looking the exact rules or spell wordings up while posting. i hope this reduces the class lvls for my to-be-opponent. :)
mucki 08-20-07, 03:38 PM	I see you make good progress making friends here wb :) But hey, let me make some friends also: I think the end of round coords in that fight (yakov vs vivi) are wrong from round 6 to end ... i guess it should be 14,29 for yakov, and 15,29 for vivi (not that it makes any difference)
TelinArtho 08-20-07, 04:42 PM	meh - my threats have always been idle anyway... no one listens to me (or anyone else for that matter) when people take me as a questlord... @whitebaron - I didn't say your ECL3 character would fight one now. I just said I would earmark one for the future. Future - as in unspecified time from the next moment until sometime later.
TelinArtho 08-20-07, 04:56 PM	A question of how to work out the cost of Guild Point Coordination. CEF has Negotiation Coordination I - meaning it can process NEG-PTS at 25%efficiency at the same time as another guild point. For instance - 750Res-Pts processed, CEF can process 750 NEG-Pts, resulting in 187 PTS actually gained. Now - does CEF have to pay 750gp for the NEG or 187gp for the resulting gain? Also, I want to confirm that CEF actually does use 750 points to gain the benefit of the 187.
MindWandererB 08-20-07, 04:59 PM	A question of how to work out the cost of Guild Point Coordination. CEF has Negotiation Coordination I - meaning it can process NEG-PTS at 25%efficiency at the same time as another guild point. For instance - 750Res-Pts processed, CEF can process 750 NEG-Pts, resulting in 187 PTS actually gained. Now - does CEF have to pay 750gp for the NEG or 187gp for the resulting gain? Also, I want to confirm that CEF actually does use 750 points to gain the benefit of the 187. You do pay the 750 NEG-PTS, but it is in all other respects as if you had processed only 187. That means that you spend only 187 gp.
TelinArtho 08-20-07, 05:08 PM	Okay. Seems a little odd - but I'll take it.
MindWandererB 08-20-07, 09:54 PM	Community of Gladius has been updated. There are a few more explanations now, a few more uses of Fame, and the beginnings of a "Prominence" system, which will be part of the reward for winning a Challenge.
Eamane 08-20-07, 10:26 PM	So, when determining who Denth attacks... where exactly is that listed? Poking through the Guildhall thread I found a link to random encounter rolls, which includes 1d6 determination of which guilds are being attacked; but what is the order of the guilds for those rolls? I.E: #2 was attacked twice, but who is #2? ^_^ I'm curious as I have two characters slated to defend their respective guilds and I want to know when I'll need them active/etc. In other news; Two new characters, a finished speed-demon build (Alacrity (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13332088&postcount=1199)) and a gun-toting bard (Xuan Sunai (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13488520&postcount=1208)).
MindWandererB 08-20-07, 11:34 PM	So, when determining who Denth attacks... where exactly is that listed? Poking through the Guildhall thread I found a link to random encounter rolls, which includes 1d6 determination of which guilds are being attacked; but what is the order of the guilds for those rolls? I.E: #2 was attacked twice, but who is #2? ^_^ I'm curious as I have two characters slated to defend their respective guilds and I want to know when I'll need them active/etc. In other news; Two new characters, a finished speed-demon build (Alacrity (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13332088&postcount=1199)) and a gun-toting bard (Xuan Sunai (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13488520&postcount=1208)). The "Random Rolls" are in the Random Events section in the Guild Hall. Regardless, the pairings post will say which guilds are being attacked, and those fights take place next week. For example, this week's pairings post lists The Living Tree's Guildhall and Fey Village, The Arcane Order's Oracle, the EHTC's Guildhall, and the CEF's Gawane Fountain; those fights will take place the day after tomorrow.
Rauul 08-21-07, 08:29 AM	Community of Gladius has been updated. There are a few more explanations now, a few more uses of Fame, and the beginnings of a "Prominence" system, which will be part of the reward for winning a Challenge. Keep going boss... I am liking it more and more..
hogarth 08-21-07, 08:55 AM	Community of Gladius has been updated. There are a few more explanations now, a few more uses of Fame, and the beginnings of a "Prominence" system, which will be part of the reward for winning a Challenge. Just browsing through the rules -- Religious and Scholarly Influence allow a spell to be cast as a prebuff for an extremely low amount of influence. For instance, if a character has 360 Influence (the equivalent of a level 7 character with 10 successful fights + some miniquests, for instance), he can get a CL 20 level 9 spell, or 60 CL 3 level 2 spells! Isn't that a trifle powerful?
Hirumajoe 08-21-07, 09:38 AM	Here's a question: Do multiple entangled states stack. Lets say you're hit by a net and the Entangle spell. Are you entangled twice? Suffering -4 to hit and -8 to Dex and quarter speed? Or is it just a flag. You're entangled or you're not? If its the former, do they have to be from two different types of effects? I.e. can you entangle twice with two Entangle spells? Thanks.
lonewolf 08-21-07, 09:48 AM	Here's a question: Do multiple entangled states stack. Lets say you're hit by a net and the Entangle spell. Are you entangled twice? Suffering -4 to hit and -8 to Dex and quarter speed? Or is it just a flag. You're entangled or you're not? If its the former, do they have to be from two different types of effects? I.e. can you entangle twice with two Entangle spells? Thanks. I would say no although I have no rule source to proove it. You cannot be under the effect of two identical positive spells, so I imagine that the same is true for two negative spells.
TelinArtho 08-21-07, 09:50 AM	Entangled is a condition and there is no such thing as double entangled - so no - it would just be -2 to hit and -4 to dex. Multiple similar (spell) effects overlap - they do not stack. So if someone is in the middle of two entangle areas, once they escape from one, they are free from the other. Similarly - they only need to make one save each round while they are within the double-covered area.
TelinArtho 08-21-07, 09:56 AM	Two new characters, a finished speed-demon build (Alacrity (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13332088&postcount=1199)) and a gun-toting bard (Xuan Sunai (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13488520&postcount=1208)). Haven't looked at Alacrity - but there is an issue with Xuan - Rapid Reload does not apply to Guns - only to crossbows.
Hirumajoe 08-21-07, 10:03 AM	Haven't looked at Alacrity - but there is an issue with Xuan - Rapid Reload does not apply to Guns - only to crossbows. Actually, it does according to our house rules (Under skills and feats). Craft Firearms & Knowledge Engineering: If you have at least 5 ranks in each and pass DC 20 with a take 10, you can craft Renaissance Weapons (DMG,p145) at half the mentioned price (such weapons cannot be bought). Note that some require you to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency and to craft special ammunition. The Rapid Reload feat can be used for firearms (a reload time of 1 standard action is reduced to 1 swift action), and magical enchantments work like for any ranged weapon.
TelinArtho 08-21-07, 10:14 AM	Bah - nevermind then.
hogarth 08-21-07, 10:28 AM	Entangled is a condition and there is no such thing as double entangled - so no - it would just be -2 to hit and -4 to dex. Multiple similar (spell) effects overlap - they do not stack. So if someone is in the middle of two entangle areas, once they escape from one, they are free from the other. Similarly - they only need to make one save each round while they are within the double-covered area. I agree with the first paragraph: you can't be doubly entangled any more than you can be doubly pinned or doubly prone. But the second paragraph is just wrong (as far as I know). Looking through the "Combining Magical Effects" section of the rules, I don't see anything about having one saving throw versus two copies of the same spell.
TelinArtho 08-21-07, 10:35 AM	Well - I have certainly been wrong before - I can strike that out for now.
templer10 08-21-07, 01:07 PM	I need a clarification on how dim light works. it say in this about dim light - "Dim light: Distance penalties for Spot checks are doubled, and Hide checks can be made without cover or concealment. Low-light vision negates these effects. Shadows are everywhere" Okay ima starting to Run shadow vs tiris - shadow is a Hide build and wants to stick to shadows - Can he still make Hide checks without cover/concealment if the other guy has Low light vision? the rule say - Low light vision negates these effects - but it doesnt say if low light negates the SPOT penalties from Dim light or it ALSO negates the ability of the OTHER guy to use said dim light to hide.
Hirumajoe 08-21-07, 01:13 PM	I need a clarification on how dim light works. it say in this about dim light - "Dim light: Distance penalties for Spot checks are doubled, and Hide checks can be made without cover or concealment. Low-light vision negates these effects. Shadows are everywhere" Okay ima starting to Run shadow vs tiris - shadow is a Hide build and wants to stick to shadows - Can he still make Hide checks without cover/concealment if the other guy has Low light vision? the rule say - Low light vision negates these effects - but it doesnt say if low light negates the SPOT penalties from Dim light or it ALSO negates the ability of the OTHER guy to use said dim light to hide. Given that it uses the plural, effects, I would assume it negates the ability to hide in addition to the spot penalty. Although clarification for the superior low-light vision and whether creatures get 20% concealment in that case would probably be handy also. I'd guess that superior low-light vision negates the 20% concealment in the Dark lighting condition. Hide in Plain Sight is a totally different can of worms, and I don't know if you're dealing with that in this case...
templer10 08-21-07, 01:23 PM	Given that it uses the plural, effects, I would assume it negates the ability to hide in addition to the spot penalty. Although clarification for the superior low-light vision and whether creatures get 20% concealment in that case would probably be handy also. I'd guess that superior low-light vision negates the 20% concealment in the Dark lighting condition. Hide in Plain Sight is a total different can of worms, and I don't know if you're dealing with that in this case... Iam not - but i really need an ELDER to comment on this so i dont run into problems later and it could becritical for this fight.
TelinArtho 08-21-07, 01:26 PM	I need a clarification on how dim light works. it say in this about dim light - "Dim light: Distance penalties for Spot checks are doubled, and Hide checks can be made without cover or concealment. Low-light vision negates these effects. Shadows are everywhere" Okay ima starting to Run shadow vs tiris - shadow is a Hide build and wants to stick to shadows - Can he still make Hide checks without cover/concealment if the other guy has Low light vision? the rule say - Low light vision negates these effects - but it doesnt say if low light negates the SPOT penalties from Dim light or it ALSO negates the ability of the OTHER guy to use said dim light to hide. The wording seems to indicate that low light vision negates the effects of the dim lighting. I don't see why there is a question about it.
MindWandererB 08-21-07, 03:28 PM	The wording seems to indicate that low light vision negates the effects of the dim lighting. I don't see why there is a question about it.That was the intention, yes.Just browsing through the rules -- Religious and Scholarly Influence allow a spell to be cast as a prebuff for an extremely low amount of influence. For instance, if a character has 360 Influence (the equivalent of a level 7 character with 10 successful fights + some miniquests, for instance), he can get a CL 20 level 9 spell, or 60 CL 3 level 2 spells! Isn't that a trifle powerful?It is true that if a character dumps all his points into that effect, he can get it pretty early as written. The NPC services cap should probably apply as well. You do get only one spell. And also bear in mind that this only applies to Community-related battles and quests, plus the time roll applies. Can you give me some scary examples of how this could be badly abused?
hogarth 08-21-07, 03:48 PM	It is true that if a character dumps all his points into that effect, he can get it pretty early as written. The NPC services cap should probably apply as well. You do get only one spell. And also bear in mind that this only applies to Community-related battles and quests, plus the time roll applies. Can you give me some scary examples of how this could be badly abused? The type of spells I was thinking of were Miracle/Wish, Psychic Chirurgery, Polymorph Any Object, Sympathy/Antipathy, Greater Spell Immunity, CL 20 Spell Resistance/Greater Magic Weapon/Vestment, etc. If there's a cap on the level of the effect, it's much less abusable, of course. But it still seems like it would be a no-brainer for long term low level effects (Share Pain, Extended Mage Armor, Deeper Darkness) just because it's so cheap. Deeper Darkness would only cost 30 Influence for an entire cycle, and a CL 7 Mage Armor would cost 14 (for one fight); at those prices, why wouldn't everyone get one? EDIT: Compare it to Mercantile Influence where 100 influence buys you a 20 gp expendable (if I'm reading that correctly)!
MindWandererB 08-21-07, 04:15 PM	The type of spells I was thinking of were Miracle/Wish, Psychic Chirurgery, Polymorph Any Object, Sympathy/Antipathy, Greater Spell Immunity, CL 20 Spell Resistance/Greater Magic Weapon/Vestment, etc. If there's a cap on the level of the effect, it's much less abusable, of course. But it still seems like it would be a no-brainer for long term low level effects (Share Pain, Extended Mage Armor, Deeper Darkness) just because it's so cheap. Deeper Darkness would only cost 30 Influence for an entire cycle, and a CL 7 Mage Armor would cost 14 (for one fight); at those prices, why wouldn't everyone get one? EDIT: Compare it to Mercantile Influence where 100 influence buys you a 20 gp expendable (if I'm reading that correctly)! Hm. Good points. I wanted to include by CL and SL in the formula, but it looks like if I want to preserve the scale I want, I'll have to change it... how about CL*20? That would be 100 for the Deeper Darkness, 140 for the Mage Armor (or, more likely, 80 for an extended Mage Armor, or any other low-level hour/level spell, like Share Pain), and 160-400 for Greater Magic Weapon/Vestment. Antipathy would be pretty useless, Spell Immunity and Spell Resistance just don't last long enough. Does that sound more reasonable? Mercantile Influence is better than all that (as written): to get a 20 gp expendable, you'd need sqrt(20)*5 = 22 influence. Of course, there are no 20 gp expendables. A CLW potion would cost 35 influence, a scroll of Mirror Image would cost 61 influence, a scroll of Fly would cost 96, a potion of Fly 136, and a scroll of Shapechange would cost 309. Hmm... do you think that's perhaps a little too cheap, as well? I don't want to encourage people to dump all their points into one expendature, but I don't want it to be broken if they do.
hogarth 08-21-07, 04:29 PM	Antipathy would be pretty useless, Spell Immunity and Spell Resistance just don't last long enough. Does that sound more reasonable? Casting Antipathy on your armor vs. a certain alignment might make it very difficult to attack you in melee. A CL 20 Extended Spell Immunity/Resistance would last 6 2/3 hours, enough to guarantee it for one fight (which should be enough unless you're planning on fighting more than one Community battle per 3FC, right?). Mercantile Influence is better than all that (as written): to get a 20 gp expendable, you'd need sqrt(20)*5 = 22 influence. Of course, there are no 20 gp expendables. A CLW potion would cost 35 influence, a scroll of Mirror Image would cost 61 influence, a scroll of Fly would cost 96, a potion of Fly 136, and a scroll of Shapechange would cost 309. Hmm... do you think that's perhaps a little too cheap, as well? I don't want to encourage people to dump all their points into one expendature, but I don't want it to be broken if they do. Ah...I saved the thread as a text file and it turned the square root into a "v" (which I thought was a typo). That one sounds a little cheap as well, then. Of course, I imagine it will be popular to sink a bunch of points into Military Influence (to cancel out other players' effects), so maybe it'll all be irrelevant in practice!
whitebaron 08-21-07, 07:50 PM	currently, i'm confused. if i want to start a druid, do i get the animal companion or not? "rules-allies I" states that every animal companion has to be acquired via questing - but looking at other character sheets, it seems to me like this is not really the case. question 2: if i want 3 animals to do the same thing, like "seek fox", do you really have to make 3 actions for this?(opinions inside and outside of coco would be valued) because this would render things like the traditional british fox hunt completely unplayable in all dnd.
MindWandererB 08-21-07, 07:57 PM	currently, i'm confused. if i want to start a druid, do i get the animal companion or not? "rules-allies I" states that every animal companion has to be acquired via questing - but looking at other character sheets, it seems to me like this is not really the case. question 2: if i want 3 animals to do the same thing, like "seek fox", do you really have to make 3 actions for this?(opinions inside and outside of coco would be valued) because this would render things like the traditional british fox hunt completely unplayable in all dnd. Q1: It says "Unless otherwise noted the character must go on a Quest to acquire a class ally." For the druid, it is otherwise noted: they need a 24-hour ritual. Q2: Yes, you really do need 3 actions. Partially it's the rules lawyer in us, and partially it's because of a nanite cheese that Cat tried.
whitebaron 08-21-07, 08:01 PM	ah ok. so otherwise noted means: in the srd. this was the missing link for me, which made me search the rules from top to bottom, left to right, and all the way back again without finding anything - since it was never there. :)
Zevox 08-21-07, 08:18 PM	Speaking of that class allies rule, could we possible just change that to saying they don't need to be quested for, since there isn't a single class ally that doesn't have a method to be obtained in the rules? Zevox
MindWandererB 08-21-07, 09:09 PM	Good point. I also want to bring up the question of whether it should be possible to bypass a guild entry miniquest with credits. On one hand, it's hardly abusable, but on the other, guild entry is supposed to require at least a little RP. I'm inclined to allow it for re-entry, but not initial entry. Thoughts?
hogarth 08-21-07, 09:25 PM	Speaking of that class allies rule, could we possible just change that to saying they don't need to be quested for, since there isn't a single class ally that doesn't have a method to be obtained in the rules? Well, it doesn't really say how to get an ex-paladin blackguard's undead companion. But I agree that we shouldn't require miniquests for class allies. Then again, I don't think we should require miniquests for anything.
SauroGrenom 08-21-07, 10:50 PM	Good point. I also want to bring up the question of whether it should be possible to bypass a guild entry miniquest with credits. On one hand, it's hardly abusable, but on the other, guild entry is supposed to require at least a little RP. I'm inclined to allow it for re-entry, but not initial entry. Thoughts? I agree with you take on this. There should be an RP basis for entry. Re-entry should be possible to bypass. There's already a history.
NiQil 08-21-07, 11:07 PM	BTW Outsiders are around, but elves are way more common... You'll get more mileage out of the ability if you choose a more common type. Humans and elves are the most common. Dwarves are close behind and are very common in the low levels at times determined by NiQil's tastes. I find it amusing that I have become known as the dwarf-player....but all of my current PC's are elves...
SauroGrenom 08-21-07, 11:09 PM	I don't want to encourage people to dump all their points into one expendature, but I don't want it to be broken if they do. Generally the way to encourage people to diversify is to employ the Law of Limiting Returns. The basic idea is that at some point each increment of additional investment results in a successively smaller benefit. D20 rules uses this in that the bonus to magic items grows at a linear rate, while the cost of them grows at an exponential rate. So although it's possible for a warrior to afford a +4 Shocking/Flame/Frost/Keen/Suppression great axe at ECL 15, that's not the most effective use of that character's money. This character would probably be better off if they had a a +1 axe with those abilities, and spent the extra 112,000gp on other stuff. Your equation for calculating Fame allows fame to grow at a supra-linear rate. Every ECL increases fame by an increment that's due to ECL increase and by an additional increment determined by the kinds of character activities. So any linear cost structure will allow characters of high ECL and long records to have everything on the list... That should be avoided. You need to put some squared powers into the costs so that efficient players are encouraged to diversify their points into more than one area.
SauroGrenom 08-21-07, 11:11 PM	I find it amusing that I have become known as the dwarf-player....but all of my current PC's are elves... Well there's history, you know? If I may, I notice you do blocks of characters who are often similar but variations on a theme. Then you test 4 or so of them at the same time. There was a long block of dwarves. Now it's wood elves. Perhaps next it's drow, grey elves or goblins.
Book5 08-22-07, 01:09 AM	Actually, it does according to our house rules (Under skills and feats). ... ‽ :shocked: www. Firearms.. nice. I have come into a run of "spare time" (sorta, but as I was saying) Looks like you don't have an editor. I can probably promise to show up at least once every three weeks and write some "stories" about.. um ya know.. ya'll. Lemme know. I saw these Naratu threads.. somewhere.. little while back.. Sounded like neat. Been meaning to post. :shifty: Dare I ask? If I'm gonna start posting on wotc again... wanna do something round here parts. Can't pitlord obviously. Anyhow - Hey Vath, Everybody else. newbies, etc.
MindWandererB 08-22-07, 01:15 AM	Your equation for calculating Fame allows fame to grow at a supra-linear rate. Every ECL increases fame by an increment that's due to ECL increase and by an additional increment determined by the kinds of character activities.It is supra-linear, but only by a slight amount. Let me give some examples, looking for PCs that started at ECL 3 and have average powerratings; obviously, not looking up stuff like Newspaper articles: Starting ECL 3 character: 90 Fame Eámanë Oronrá: 114 Fame Ikhain al-Habari: 166 Fame Truls Rohk: 245 Fame (Special Power) Enoch the Prophet: 316 Fame Mithos Durrol: 346 Fame Rubicanti: 394 Fame Kervan Sheharath: 456 Fame Eraca Moralta: 592 Fame (frozen missions) Aerryl Nalladar: 624 Fame (frozen MQ and mission) Vandelar the Red: 790 (frozen stuff) 1000 975 950 925 900 875 850 825 800 X 775 750 725 700 675 650 625 X 600 X 575 550 525 500 475 450 X 425 400 X 375 350 X 325 300 X 275 250 X 225 200 175 150 X 125 100 X 75 50 25 0 ECL 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12Well, the frozen stuff screws things up, but as you can see, it's pretty linear through most of the way. If we changed to a geometric cost system, you'd be able to afford more at low levels than at high.
MindWandererB 08-22-07, 01:17 AM	Wow! Hey, Book, good to see you again! The world has been turned upside down since you left, but some things stay the same....
Vathelokai 08-22-07, 01:28 AM	... ‽ :shocked: www. Firearms.. nice. I have come into a run of "spare time" (sorta, but as I was saying) Looks like you don't have an editor. I can probably promise to show up at least once every three weeks and write some "stories" about.. um ya know.. ya'll. Lemme know. I saw these Naratu threads.. somewhere.. little while back.. Sounded like neat. Been meaning to post. :shifty: Dare I ask? If I'm gonna start posting on wotc again... wanna do something round here parts. Can't pitlord obviously. Anyhow - Hey Vath, Everybody else. newbies, etc. Waddup! I'm actually editing now, but I'll take anything you can dish out. Usually I'm not up this late; a bit brain-dead. See ya tomorrow.
Zevox 08-22-07, 01:54 AM	Woah, Book5! Never thought we'd see you around here again after all this time. Great to see ya. Zevox
Taureus_Drakken 08-22-07, 02:43 AM	I am sure it's around here somewhere. :confused: But does anyone have word on having a cleric that picks an ideology, rather than a deity, and wants to have the War domain as an option for their character. The only reason I ask, is because I wanted Weapon Focus with a weapon that's not the favored weapon of any of the deities we have to choose from. As it stands right now, I picked Halberd as my weapon to get WF with. I would have rather gotten it for Greatsword, but we can't get everything now can we... Maybe I should have done more reading before making my character, though I still have time before the deadline in case I need to go in and change my character's domains. ¬Taureus¬
Eamane 08-22-07, 03:03 AM	I am sure it's around here somewhere. :confused: But does anyone have word on having a cleric that picks an ideology, rather than a deity, and wants to have the War domain as an option for their character. The only reason I ask, is because I wanted Weapon Focus with a weapon that's not the favored weapon of any of the deities we have to choose from. As it stands right now, I picked Halberd as my weapon to get WF with. I would have rather gotten it for Greatsword, but we can't get everything now can we... Maybe I should have done more reading before making my character, though I still have time before the deadline in case I need to go in and change my character's domains. ¬Taureus¬ Clerics, the most powerful or tied for most powerful class in D&D, have great leeway in CoCo as far as gods go. You can 1. Make up your own god and have it have any combination of attributes that you like. Or you can 2. Make up an ideology/source of power other than a god and have it have any combination of attributes that you like. Want Magic and Darkness? No problem. Favored Weapon: Scythe? Sure. How about Madness and Protection with a Favored Weapon: Rapier? We can do that! Etc. As long as your domains are clearly listed, your positive/negative spontaneous channeling ability noted (for neutrals), you are fine.
Taureus_Drakken 08-22-07, 03:24 AM	So having the Strength and War domains for a CN deity is fine by that logic. I figured it would be since it's "roughly" outlined as such in the PHB. I just wanted to make sure. Thanks for your quick response!! ¬Taureus¬
Eamane 08-22-07, 03:43 AM	So having the Strength and War domains for a CN deity is fine by that logic. I figured it would be since it's "roughly" outlined as such in the PHB. I just wanted to make sure. Thanks for your quick response!! ¬Taureus¬ Fine, yep. Though I wouldn't personally recommend the Strength domain, there are better options (Magic is *cough* quite potent, so is Darkness). Which reminds me, I still haven't finished my Madness/Weather Cleric/Wizard/Mystical Theurge... I should get on that. And in a final bit of news; Eamane is hovering 325 xp away from ECL 4. I really. Really. Really. Really don't want to lose to another ECL 3 character, so I figured I would take her on a MQ to break into ECL 4 territory; next week of course. Anyone up for a RP miniquest with no particular goal, starting on the 29th? The rough outline I have at the moment is seeking out a Wizard's Spellbook to start her Arcane studies; and naturally dealing with it's guardian/present owner.
lonewolf 08-22-07, 03:59 AM	So having the Strength and War domains for a CN deity is fine by that logic. I figured it would be since it's "roughly" outlined as such in the PHB. I just wanted to make sure. Thanks for your quick response!! ¬Taureus¬ As far as I know, you can even play a CE Cleric with Law and Good domains if you feel like it. It wont do you any good because you cannot cast spells with the Law and/or Good descriptors, but nothing prevents you of having those Domains. Actually scratch that one. There is that resitriction on Domains, but thats the only one I know of.
Sjiggie 08-22-07, 07:47 AM	And in a final bit of news; Eamane is hovering 325 xp away from ECL 4. I really. Really. Really. Really don't want to lose to another ECL 3 character, so I figured I would take her on a MQ to break into ECL 4 territory; next week of course. Anyone up for a RP miniquest with no particular goal, starting on the 29th? The rough outline I have at the moment is seeking out a Wizard's Spellbook to start her Arcane studies; and naturally dealing with it's guardian/present owner. I can take that one just put me in the title line and I will work something out for the MQ Sjiggie
Rauul 08-22-07, 09:59 AM	Got a Question on how this would work.. Example, Corrupter is Under shield other with lady Domix, who is under share Pain with her Psicrystal... Corrupter gets hit for 30 damage... 1/2 goes to lady Domix, 1/2 of that goes to Nexus correct.. Meaning that Corrupter takes 15 damage, Domix takes 8, nexus takes 7.. Am i correct with this? Also a level 1 Cleric of magic can use any level 1 scroll with no check (even if it is of a Higher CL).. Example.. Magic missile scroll CL 9 or shocking grasp CL 5?
hogarth 08-22-07, 10:02 AM	Got a Question on how this would work.. Example, Corrupter is Under shield other with lady Domix, who is under share Pain with her Psicrystal... Corrupter gets hit for 30 damage... 1/2 goes to lady Domix, 1/2 of that goes to Nexus correct.. Meaning that Corrupter takes 15 damage, Domix takes 8, nexus takes 7.. Am i correct with this? Also a level 1 Cleric of magic can use any level 1 scroll with no check (even if it is of a Higher CL).. Example.. Magic missile scroll CL 9 or shocking grasp CL 5? The chain of Shield Other/Share Pain is correct, I think. Scrolls require a caster level check to use (DC=CL of scroll+1). Read the description of spell completion items for more details.
Rauul 08-22-07, 10:09 AM	The chain of Shield Other/Share Pain is correct, I think. Scrolls require a caster level check to use (DC=CL of scroll+1). Read the description of spell completion items for more details. So basicly it's 1d20+1 vs the CL (9 for the magic missile scroll 5 for the shocking grasp scroll)
hogarth 08-22-07, 10:13 AM	So basicly it's 1d20+1 vs the CL (9 for the magic missile scroll 5 for the shocking grasp scroll) No, it's 1d20+1 vs the CL+1 (10 for the MM scroll, and 6 for the shocking grasp scroll).
Rauul 08-22-07, 10:27 AM	Ok next Question... whats the Credit cost to Swap around Some feats (levels) Example Move Improve Familiar from level 3 to level 1, Craft wonderous to level 3, Extend Spell [Metamagic] to level 5, then Trade out Extend Spell [Metamagic] with Craft wand (would still be available for the red wizard) Would this be 5,10 or 15 credits?
TelinArtho 08-22-07, 10:41 AM	But I suspect that CR4+CR8 does not get by without some advancement. You think? For the record, MWB thought that one of my creations here was "evil." I didn't think it was too bad - but I guess we'll see. And I'll let you wonder which one is the one he was commenting about...
Erithmu 08-22-07, 10:52 AM	You think? For the record, MWB thought that one of my creations here was "evil." I didn't think it was too bad - but I guess we'll see. And I'll let you wonder which one is the one he was commenting about...I have a feeling that we will be on the receiving end of 'evil' and his 'sidekick' Everyone has the things they hate, I hate fliers on the open planes, and Telin advancing outsiders.
TelinArtho 08-22-07, 11:24 AM	For the record - I've only very recently begun advancing outsiders. Up to now - it was limited to a single situation (the advanced half-dragon barbazu that Sdentch faced). Most of the ones you have faced are plain old outsiders with a relatively limited set of equipment.
Erithmu 08-22-07, 11:29 AM	Btw ... Telin ... They have a new gameplay sketch of a dragon encounter. Not sure if the Stronghammer clan will be able to survive in 4e by themselves. They might need to come in 'clan' force for hunts. And Vath needs to finish up that quest ...
TelinArtho 08-22-07, 11:57 AM	Oh - where is that? I'd like to see...
Erithmu 08-22-07, 12:17 PM	here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20070822a) It isn't very detailed, but it is still kinda ... one dragon army type of thing. I kinda like how combat might work. along with the classes stuff if they are going the ToB route.
Vathelokai 08-22-07, 12:38 PM	And Vath needs to finish up that quest ... Trying. Unfortunately, I cannot roll dice a work. Been a crazy couple weeks.
Macbrea 08-22-07, 03:58 PM	Hey guys, Finally back from Gencon, that was fun.
TelinArtho 08-22-07, 04:00 PM	Welcome back Sir.
Macbrea 08-22-07, 04:00 PM	Well, I am hoping the change doesn't effect us much. :P
whitebaron 08-22-07, 04:14 PM	wow, that was fast, the rules confusing me are already changed. ;) so, whats got to be the next thing for me? ah, yes, got confused by rules again. - this time, it was the timing for several deadlines. deadline for tactics is given in gmt, rest in pst as well as converted to est. i "lost" 3 hours by switching pst time to est (and hurried myself needlessly :D). it would be good to have a schedule laid out in one zone, best would be to have it in UTC(gmt), but any other fixed time zone is good as well. btw: daylight savings times are now up to a month different in the usa and europe, thanks to president bush. left side usa: 2007 => March 11 - November 4 vs March 25 - October 28 2008 => March 9 - November 2 vs March 30 - October 26 current settings: Editing Deadline: Wednesday 12 PM PST / 3 PM EST Deadline for Fights run by Pitlords: Tuesday 12 PM PST / 3 PM EST Note that this timing would actually be 1 PM PDT / 4 PM EDT, since the timezones are called differently, but i think this is just accidentally so and should be 12 pst 3 edt too. Tactics deadline: Friday 9 PM GMT This would be 1 PM PST / 4 PM EST or 2 PM PDT/ 5 PM EDT. same issue here with different daylight saving times in europe and the us. tables coming up... Editing Deadline = E Fights Deadline = F Tactics Deadline = T CET = Central European Time (it does not change names for summertime) EST/EDT = Eastern Daylight/Standard Time PST/PDT = Pacific Daylight/Standard Time Assuming PST value stands for PDT as well -- Date ----------- E+F ----------- T ------------- 2007-03-11 12 PM PDT 2 PM PDT - 3 PM EDT 5 PM EDT 2007-03-25 7 PM UTC 9 PM UTC 8 PM CET 10 PM CET ======================================== ============= 2007-03-25 12 PM PDT 2 PM PDT - 3 PM EDT 5 PM EDT 2007-10-28 7 PM UTC 9 PM UTC 9 PM CET+1 11 PM CET+1 ======================================== ============= 2007-10-28 12 PM PDT 2 PM PDT - 3 PM EDT 5 PM EDT 2007-11-04 7 PM UTC 9 PM UTC 8 PM CET 10 PM CET ======================================== ============= 2007-11-04 12 PM PST 1 PM PST - 3 PM EST 4 PM EST 2008-03-09 8 PM UTC 9 PM UTC 9 PM CET 10 PM CET ======================================== ============= Assuming PST and PDT are viewed different -- Date ----------- E+F ----------- T ------------- 2007-03-11 1 PM PDT 2 PM PDT - 4 PM EDT 5 PM EDT 2007-03-25 8 PM UTC 9 PM UTC 9 PM CET 10 PM CET ======================================== ============= 2007-03-25 1 PM PDT 2 PM PDT - 4 PM EDT 5 PM EDT 2007-10-28 8 PM UTC 9 PM UTC 10 PM CET+1 11 PM CET+1 ======================================== ============= 2007-10-28 1 PM PDT 2 PM PDT - 4 PM EDT 5 PM EDT 2007-11-04 8 PM UTC 9 PM UTC 9 PM CET 10 PM CET ======================================== ============= 2007-11-04 12 PM PST 1 PM PST - 3 PM EST 4 PM EST 2008-03-09 8 PM UTC 9 PM UTC 9 PM CET 10 PM CET ======================================== ============= as you can clearly see, t scales well for both. for summer time, 1 hour plus, for standard time, 1 hour less. e+f naturally stay the same for us-folks, but its not a seasonal change for european guys, its actually a 4 times switch. i don't know what experiments are planned next in the USA, but it might change again in the near future. ;) therefore i'd propose a change to UTC for all time-values, and give a table like that above for the major time zones. (3 european, 4-5 us, and if anyone wants, i could do such a table for a lot more timezones quite fast.)
Rauul 08-22-07, 04:24 PM	Well, I am hoping the change doesn't effect us much. :P Well i hear you went to ALL the 4edition stuph... So speak up bro... don't make come down there and beat you..
Eamane 08-22-07, 05:06 PM	Tremble ye mortals with your 'sanity'. Madness stalks the land in dangerous, alluring form! But the touch of the Far Realm is clear to see, be not mistaken. Shugo-zact (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13511429&postcount=1211) is neigh! I was reminded of my unfinished Mystic Theurge and figured I might as well finish her. <3 Lovecraftian mythos.
Hirumajoe 08-22-07, 06:46 PM	Dumb question: When a Small character uses compression to become tiny (and their armor scales down with them), does the armor bonus become halved? (And I presume rounds down?) Since the Armor for unusual creatures section indicates Tiny and smaller armors only provide half the normal AC. And does that affect the enhancement bonus or not? (Say on +1 mithril chainmail?) Thanks.
MindWandererB 08-22-07, 08:34 PM	Dumb question: When a Small character uses compression to become tiny (and their armor scales down with them), does the armor bonus become halved? (And I presume rounds down?) Since the Armor for unusual creatures section indicates Tiny and smaller armors only provide half the normal AC. And does that affect the enhancement bonus or not? (Say on +1 mithril chainmail?) Thanks. Technically, that is correct. I infer that the enchantment is added afterwards (so tiny +2 mithral chain gives a +4 AC bonus).
Macbrea 08-22-07, 11:58 PM	Well i hear you went to ALL the 4edition stuph... So speak up bro... don't make come down there and beat you.. Well, it should be interesting. I am hoping to run the first 4th ed campaign for our group, same as I did for 3rd ed. Anyways, It is suppose to be OGL. And Best I can tell will mean, CoCo wise, we will have access to all the books. Not taking up a huge amount of space here to go over what the random bit of clues they gave out about it.
Rauul 08-23-07, 08:51 AM	ok.. Orc Double axe costs 60 gp... Now with one head being Cold iron (A double weapon that has only half of it made of cold iron increases its cost by 50%.) and the other head is Silver (One-handed weapon, or one head of a double weapon +90 gp) total cost would be 225 gp (1/2 if self crafted or 112.5 gp) Now to make this Master worked would cost 600 more or 300 self crafted.. to cost 412.5gp.. Am i correct?
TelinArtho 08-23-07, 09:45 AM	ok.. Orc Double axe costs 60 gp... Now with one head being Cold iron (A double weapon that has only half of it made of cold iron increases its cost by 50%.) and the other head is Silver (One-handed weapon, or one head of a double weapon +90 gp) total cost would be 225 gp (1/2 if self crafted or 112.5 gp) Now to make this Master worked would cost 600 more or 300 self crafted.. to cost 412.5gp.. Am i correct? 60 + .5*60 + 90 = 180gp 180 + 600 = 780gp Half that for crafting. I have no clue where you get the 225 from...
templer10 08-23-07, 04:17 PM	Question - what happens to a Druids ACP from non proficient Armor when he wildshapes (assuming the Aromr is wild) he keeps the armor bonus but does he keep the ACP?
SauroGrenom 08-23-07, 04:24 PM	Assuming you are prone and teleport, do you get to stand up for free when you teleport? I'd say no. The basic reasoning is that if you teleport, you cannot gain extra actions as a part of that spell effect. Standing is a move action, and if teleport allows you to stand, then it's effectively making a standard action into a standard action with a bonus move action.
TelinArtho 08-23-07, 04:31 PM	Assuming you are prone and teleport, do you get to stand up for free when you teleport? I'd say no. The basic reasoning is that if you teleport, you cannot gain extra actions as a part of that spell effect. Standing is a move action, and if teleport allows you to stand, then it's effectively making a standard action into a standard action with a bonus move action. To add my argument to this, the teleport allows you to escape grapples without an opposed grapple check (just a successful concentration). I see no reason why teleport could not reorient you from a horizontal position to a vertical position. Imagine teleporting out of a body of water onto dry land - do you automatically take the position you were in the water when you come out?
Hirumajoe 08-23-07, 04:31 PM	Assuming you are prone and teleport, do you get to stand up for free when you teleport? I'd say no. The basic reasoning is that if you teleport, you cannot gain extra actions as a part of that spell effect. Standing is a move action, and if teleport allows you to stand, then it's effectively making a standard action into a standard action with a bonus move action. Just to make it a more complicated question: What if you were prone on the ground, but have a fly spell running, and teleport to a point 10' up. Are you still prone in the middle of the air?
templer10 08-23-07, 04:49 PM	Question - what happens to a Druids ACP from non proficient Armor when he wildshapes (assuming the Aromr is wild) he keeps the armor bonus but does he keep the ACP? Bump - any answers? need to mkae an 8th level druid for an intercept and iam working out an old build so i need to know if i need to burn a feat on armor proficency
TelinArtho 08-23-07, 04:52 PM	I would say yes. Wildshaping doesn't remove the effects of the armor - so the ACP would still be there.
Callix 08-23-07, 04:59 PM	Presenting the Psychic Redneck, Petyr Darry. I'd appreciate any advice on the psionic gunslinger. Current idea is to head for Slayer, maybe dipping Elocater, and taking the Psionic Shot tree. Boost Wis at level 4, then take Psionic Meditation. Stuf like that.
hogarth 08-23-07, 05:02 PM	I don't think that you can stand up "for free" by teleporting. To me that would be like a flying creature taking a 5' (flying) step that to put itself in an upright position (as a free action without provoking an AoO). Wild armor's ACP still counts even when it's merged.
Huan 08-23-07, 05:07 PM	So, I wonder what COCO will do when the 4.0 SRD hits the WOTC site. I think I'll look forward to coming back here when that time comes... I need to blow the dust off my 215 credits and do SOMETHING with them. Aside: Man, I leave for a few months, come back, and EVERYTHING'S different... geez. (I see a lot of the old people that made this place great have left... shame)
TelinArtho 08-23-07, 05:10 PM	So, I wonder what COCO will do when the 4.0 SRD hits the WOTC site. I think I'll look forward to coming back here when that time comes... I need to blow the dust off my 215 credits and do SOMETHING with them. Aside: Man, I leave for a few months, come back, and EVERYTHING'S different... geez. (I see a lot of the old people that made this place great have left... shame) Good to see you back around Huan. Planning on making a come back or just poking your head in?
Huan 08-23-07, 05:33 PM	Good to see you back around Huan. Planning on making a come back or just poking your head in? Good to see you, too. I see a LOT has changed Arena-wise, so I'll hang around until I find something to do.
MindWandererB 08-23-07, 07:01 PM	So, I wonder what COCO will do when the 4.0 SRD hits the WOTC site. I think I'll look forward to coming back here when that time comes... I need to blow the dust off my 215 credits and do SOMETHING with them. Aside: Man, I leave for a few months, come back, and EVERYTHING'S different... geez. (I see a lot of the old people that made this place great have left... shame) Well, I'd like to think that those of us who are still here are still making CoCo great, just in a different way. As for 4e, my current intent is to run concurrent 3.5 and 4e games here, as soon as the complete SRD goes online and we can hammer out any CoCo-specific details we need. I imagine that as 4e takes off, the characters will begin to trickle from one system to the other, and I hope to make that as seamless a transition as possible. We'll shut down the 3.5 CoCo only when it's clearly too unpopular to go on.
templer10 08-23-07, 07:07 PM	Presenting the Psychic Redneck, Petyr Darry. I'd appreciate any advice on the psionic gunslinger. Current idea is to head for Slayer, maybe dipping Elocater, and taking the Psionic Shot tree. Boost Wis at level 4, then take Psionic Meditation. Stuf like that. You might want to get offensive precog as a power known - For a future Psi gish you dont and Wont have that good an attack bonus. also you might want to think in the future about getting a psicrystal for that extra focus and making those touch attack psi shots. (lvl 3 psicrystal affinity, 5, psioninc mediation, 6 psicrstal containment, 9 fell shot).
MindWandererB 08-23-07, 07:07 PM	I would say yes. Wildshaping doesn't remove the effects of the armor - so the ACP would still be there. I disagree. Not only does wildshaping remove the effects of the armor in all ways, but ACP shouldn't apply if there's no physical armor restricting your movement.
templer10 08-23-07, 07:10 PM	I disagree. Not only does wildshaping remove the effects of the armor in all ways, but ACP shouldn't apply if there's no physical armor restricting your movement. that's personally what i think 2 - can another elder pipe in? it matters for a fight i have 2 run.
Rauul 08-23-07, 07:37 PM	60 + .5*60 + 90 = 180gp 180 + 600 = 780gp Half that for crafting. I have no clue where you get the 225 from... So 390 gp when self crafted?
TelinArtho 08-23-07, 07:49 PM	I disagree. Not only does wildshaping remove the effects of the armor in all ways, but ACP shouldn't apply if there's no physical armor restricting your movement. So let me understand this. Dragonhide full plate +1 Wild on a standard Druid 5. In human form he gets a +9 armor bonus, but suffers a -5 ACP for the armor (including on his attacks), but he wildshapes, and all of a sudden, that -5 goes away? I would be willing to agree that if the armor is subsumed - maybe - it would go away - but not if the player is gaining the benefits of the armor at all.
Erithmu 08-23-07, 08:34 PM	@Telin: got my first crit of the campaign, but I didn't do it. There were ... reparations that had to be paid for it. 71->-1 in 2 'actions' is probably worth it.
hogarth 08-23-07, 08:36 PM	I disagree. Not only does wildshaping remove the effects of the armor in all ways, but ACP shouldn't apply if there's no physical armor restricting your movement. MWB -- this is armor with the Wild enhancement we're talking about, so it doesn't remove the effects of the armor "in all ways". It's just not visible while in wild shape: The wearer of a suit of armor or a shield with this ability preserves his armor bonus (and any enhancement bonus) while in a wild shape. Armor and shields with this ability usually appear to be made covered in leaf patterns. While the wearer is in a wild shape, the armor cannot be seen.
SauroGrenom 08-23-07, 08:38 PM	To add my argument to this, the teleport allows you to escape grapples without an opposed grapple check (just a successful concentration). I see no reason why teleport could not reorient you from a horizontal position to a vertical position. Imagine teleporting out of a body of water onto dry land - do you automatically take the position you were in the water when you come out?Teleport moves you to another place on the map, not changes your orientation or other kind of status unless that status is somehow dependent on things specifically located in the old location. So if you teleport out of a grapple, then you are not in a place where your grappling foe is located, so he cannot grapple you any more. And if you teleport out of entanglement, then you aren't under the net anymore... so you're not entangled. Same goes for teleporting away from a place where the grease spell is acting. But if you are poisoned, you don't leave the poison behind when you teleport. Or if you are held by hold person, it travels with you to your new location. So being stunned, or helpless and so on all go along with your new location. Prone is similar as long as the new location is one where being prone is possible. If you teleport into water, then prone would no longer matter. Or if you teleport into the air, and use a move action to fly or hover that round, then it wouldn't matter. But if you teleport from one area of a grease spell to another area where there is a grease effect, then you are still balancing. Prone simply has to do with whether you are lying on the ground or not. And any two pieces of ground are equivalent with respect to being prone. So you don't get to remove that status by teleporting away from the offensive area to another with the same necessary characteristics.
Huan 08-23-07, 10:25 PM	Well, I'd like to think that those of us who are still here are still making CoCo great, just in a different way. As for 4e, my current intent is to run concurrent 3.5 and 4e games here, as soon as the complete SRD goes online and we can hammer out any CoCo-specific details we need. I imagine that as 4e takes off, the characters will begin to trickle from one system to the other, and I hope to make that as seamless a transition as possible. We'll shut down the 3.5 CoCo only when it's clearly too unpopular to go on. I agree. Plus, I have no fear the next-gen of players here will do a good job making this a fun place. It's still going strong, no? Belated congrats on your new GM seat. @Everyone I'll take requests on narratives/stories for your chars or their fights... PM me.
SauroGrenom 08-23-07, 10:41 PM	I agree. Plus, I have no fear the next-gen of players here will do a good job making this a fun place. It's still going strong, no? We're still going at a decent pace. We have dozens of active players and characters. We get new people coming through at a reasonable pace. We have had more players and more pitlords at various time in the past, but there's no crisis.
Vathelokai 08-23-07, 11:22 PM	Teleport moves you to another place on the map, not changes your orientation or other kind of status unless that status is somehow dependent on things specifically located in the old location. ... So you don't get to remove that status by teleporting away from the offensive area to another with the same necessary characteristics. I'm agreeing with Sauro here. I would allow such 'reorientation' in a home game, but the rules don't appear to support it.
Vathelokai 08-23-07, 11:24 PM	Bump - any answers? need to mkae an 8th level druid for an intercept and iam working out an old build so i need to know if i need to burn a feat on armor proficency I vote that if you keep the ac bonus, you keep the ACP. I envision wild armor as shapechanging itself into barding to fit your new size.
Vathelokai 08-23-07, 11:26 PM	I agree. Plus, I have no fear the next-gen of players here will do a good job making this a fun place. It's still going strong, no? Belated congrats on your new GM seat. @Everyone I'll take requests on narratives/stories for your chars or their fights... PM me. Good seeing you! If you're really looking for something to spend those credits on , the leagues are open to ECL15 now. Requests for stories, eh? I might take you up on that. Also, I can always use fresh material for the Gladius Weekly.
MindWandererB 08-24-07, 12:11 AM	If you're really looking for something to spend those credits on , the leagues are open to ECL15 now. Requests for stories, eh? I might take you up on that. Also, I can always use fresh material for the Gladius Weekly.ECL 16, actually. That's the "new ECL 10." And yes, please, contribute to the Newspaper. It'll help a lot when we launch the Community.MWB -- this is armor with the Wild enhancement we're talking about, so it doesn't remove the effects of the armor "in all ways". It's just not visible while in wild shape:I did miss that it was Wild armor. But that's a miserable statement--"the armor cannot be seen." Does that mean it's invisible? Ridiculous. However, since the armor does retain its inherent AC bonus, as well as its enhancement modifier, there must be something physical there. In which case, the ACP should still apply.
Rauul 08-24-07, 12:32 AM	yes, please, contribute to the Newspaper. Hmm what kind of articles you want...
TelinArtho 08-24-07, 12:35 AM	Well in light of at least two opinions in dissent and only mine in agreement - I will adjust the quest for the teleport item. See you guys in the morning when I fix it.
Callix 08-24-07, 06:12 AM	Quick, and probably silly, question: Can a character access his/her "At Home" equipment between fights? My new gunslinger can't afford a good Strength score, so he's got encumbrance problems. Only having to carry one fight's worth of bullets/powder will help until I can afford some extradimensional storage. EDIT: And what's the rules on fractional pounds? Is 26 lbs or 27 lbs the light load limit for 8 STR?
TelinArtho 08-24-07, 09:16 AM	26.00000 lbs is the limit for light load for 8 Str. Any amount more than 26 pounds becomes moderate. You can access At home equipment between fights of the 3FC.
Hirumajoe 08-24-07, 09:17 AM	Quick, and probably silly, question: Can a character access his/her "At Home" equipment between fights? My new gunslinger can't afford a good Strength score, so he's got encumbrance problems. Only having to carry one fight's worth of bullets/powder will help until I can afford some extradimensional storage. EDIT: And what's the rules on fractional pounds? Is 26 lbs or 27 lbs the light load limit for 8 STR? Since determining what is at home and what is with you is a Pre-Fight Action, you can in fact move stuff to and from you character before each fight. This is also the reason why expendables at home count against your expendables cap. As for the weight limit, I'd guess that it goes to the next category up. (Think of having a 200-300 lb heavy category. Would you let someone walk around with 300.5?) Although there is a rule somewhere that says round fractions down, but I don't think that applies to weight in general (otherwise I'd be carrying around a thousand 0 lb (0.15 lbs rounded down) arrows. There are a number of things you can do as Pre-Fight Action: * Allies and Equipment: If you want to bring in allies who assist you in your fight, you have to mention each ally in the Pre-Fight Actions section along with its ECL or CR (whatever is relevant for the ally). Failure to do so means the ally is not available in the fight. Equipment need not be prebuffed with but anything not listed in a special "At Home" section will be brought into the fight. That means, if you have listed 20 weapons and a full plate on your sheet (outside the home section) you might have trouble with encumbrance. At least, you cannot leave the armor at home if you suddenly face a spellcaster. This is similar with allies: any ally that is mentioned in the prebuff section counts against your rewards. You may choose to leave the prebuffed ally out of the fight (automatically including whatever you have listed under its equipment section) but your rewards take a hit as if the ally was actively assisting you. Allies that have a duration (like a Paladin's mount or summoned creatures) are affected by the Time Roll normally.
mucki 08-24-07, 09:31 AM	Although there is a rule somewhere that says round fractions down, but I don't think that applies to weight in general (otherwise I'd be carrying around a thousand 0 lb (0.15 lbs rounded down) arrows. Actually the rule is: Use DnD math (always round down, x*2*2 is actually x*3, ...) when dealing with DnD values (AC, HP, ...) but use real world math and real rounding when dealing with real world values (weight, size, volume ...). So weight is calculated and rounded normally.
lonewolf 08-24-07, 03:22 PM	Im gonna do one final Audit this weekend to have the needed credits to activate Therador. Anyone wanna volunteer his character for the Audit?
Erithmu 08-24-07, 03:53 PM	Im gonna do one final Audit this weekend to have the needed credits to activate Therador. Anyone wanna volunteer his character for the Audit? Owen will take a full audit, I think he has all his 'post-crafting' stuff set up, so I could use the verification on that stuff. If he seems pretty good, Your welcome to flit through the rest of my characters.
TheMagister 08-24-07, 04:49 PM	@TelinArtho, Erithmu and Sauro, Re: Inquisition Act II - picking up an item provokes an AoO, correct? Does it really matter if you're prone when you do it? Mellios should suffer an AoO for picking up his sword, right? (I know that 'Rith said not to waste it on damage, but to disarm the sword -- I'm just asking for my own benefit.)
Erithmu 08-24-07, 05:17 PM	@TelinArtho, Erithmu and Sauro, Re: Inquisition Act II - picking up an item provokes an AoO, correct? Does it really matter if you're prone when you do it? Mellios should suffer an AoO for picking up his sword, right? (I know that 'Rith said not to waste it on damage, but to disarm the sword -- I'm just asking for my own benefit.) Yes. However Iggy only has one AoO in a round while enlarged, I had wanted to use it to disarm Mellios on him standing, however he teleported instead of standing. So I bypassed my AoO and my 2nd condition didn't come into play. AoO was provoked but not taken. I use this for my trip builds saving my AoO for tripping when my opponent tries to move away so that I keep them there. As for disarming it is like trying to trip while they are prone, I can't disarm him while he is getting his sword.
TheMagister 08-24-07, 06:27 PM	'Kay. That's what I thought. Good luck with that fight, BTW. Looks tough. ... We're keeping all of your luck for the Campaign. Just a heads-up. Marcus' SR and dmg rolls are awesome. :cool:
Erithmu 08-24-07, 06:45 PM	'Kay. That's what I thought. Good luck with that fight, BTW. Looks tough. ... We're keeping all of your luck for the Campaign. Just a heads-up. Marcus' SR and dmg rolls are awesome. :cool:At the gaming table SR is the bane of my existence ... I could never roll above about a 5 on any SR check ... So I gave up and started buffing the druid and cleric, then limited wishing for Divine Power and wading into battle. Also Marcus' Damage rolls are sub average ... I wish Ephraim's hit ... she did more damage on 8d6 than Marcus did on 10d6 ... *grumble* the enervation was just insult to injury.
TheMagister 08-24-07, 06:52 PM	Same here. I specifically pick spells that ignore SR and saves for my casters. That Spell Compendium spell "Assay Spell Resistance" is one of my favorites. I'm toying with the idea of creating a caster online here just to show you guys that I do actually play 'em. ;)
Erithmu 08-24-07, 07:03 PM	This was my caster who had the best saves of the party (except for maybe his will save at 26 ...), could wade into melee combat (PAO) and still keep up with the druid and cleric on damage. Add on having lots of fun with whatever else was in his utility belt. I think about half my spells were no save ... stacking 6 CL18 Acid arrows is FUN!
TheMagister 08-24-07, 07:07 PM	I crafted a hella effective extended acid arrow wand with one of my old casters. :) Those d4s really stack up.
Erithmu 08-24-07, 07:09 PM	I think I used this tactic most often on War Trolls and golems ... then again I was sorcerer casting so I could flex the stuff around. We nerf sticked so much stuff in that campaign ... but it needed it.
Book5 08-24-07, 10:27 PM	Otherwise 4E forums (http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=686) oh my god ... its full of stars. :) I realized, what else I do. How hard can it be to lurk and tattle ?:smirk: Can we do "columns" with that table feature .. is that a table feature? How are you people doing that "thing?" No! Don't tell me.. can figure it out meself. Wow.. 4E.. I ..wow. What was that last week? Why Wasn't That On The TV! NEWS!? :nonono: Those people need to get their priorities right. I am mostly worried that its an identity and ideological royalty protection methodology. That could have styrange implications for a 3.5 forever Coco, even a 3.X .... what about eventually expanding to "D&D 1/2/3/4 and various subset rule" visions. Wow that could happen with allot of people .. and a virtual desktop thing. "Insight, Inquest?" what was the name of the maga-e-zine we're supposed to wait a year in the making? I have to have a "subscription for" this? Of course... it could become like a LiveLetters (cough journal) then the money makes the ads go away but its free to get fnorded all day. wow 4E I will have bought a first print 3.0 and live to see 4E. I guess I was alive when 1E went to 2E ..I guess :rolleyes: Wow.. ..about a week before I get back.. the search works now.. "i think this is where i came in" be back later guys.
NiQil 08-24-07, 11:40 PM	26.00000 lbs is the limit for light load for 8 Str. Any amount more than 26 pounds becomes moderate. You can access At home equipment between fights of the 3FC. I'm going to have to disagree with this. Since it is clearly indicated that medium encumbrance does not start until 27.00, I see no reason not to allow light load to run until 26.99. There is nothing in the encumbrance rules (that I can find) that states that by having 26.99 lbs, you are encumbered with an 8 Str. By cutting it at 26.00, we have a full lb there that simply does nothing.
Taureus_Drakken 08-25-07, 12:39 AM	And as the rules don't explicitly state dealing with decimal weights, you wouldn't be encumbered until your gear reached 27.00 lbs in weight. This isn't a shot at the "it doesn't say you can't, so you can" argument. Just common sense when dealing with non-whole numbers. ¬Taureus¬
MindWandererB 08-25-07, 01:53 AM	I'm particularly fond of what happens when you become Large. 0-200 = Light. 202-400=Medium... what happens to 201? @Guildmasters: I'm confused. I don't see any explicit mention of the strike on anyone's structures except TLT's. What's going on?
mucki 08-25-07, 03:56 AM	Just a question for clarification: I know the person who writes tictacs knows all the equipment of another character, but are the characters assumed to know also? In my specific example: Ryer casts a spell from a wand. He only has 1 wand in posession. Can Wooly infer that it has to be expeditious retreat even though he has not spellcraft and could not know it according to the plain rules? It doesn't really matter anyway for this fight, but it might in the future, so I would like to know :)
TheMagister 08-25-07, 04:20 AM	@Guildmasters: I'm confused. I don't see any explicit mention of the strike on anyone's structures except TLT's. What's going on? Color me confused. We had another strike? Last one I remember was the one that doubled our upkeep(s) on our LEI structures. Or did you use a misleading word and your really mean "explicit mention of the Denth attacks on anyone's structures except TLT's." Cause that would make sense. HA! I see it now. Happened on Aug 15th. Totally missed it! WAR's in the middle of a lucky streak (Aug 8th) and is unaffected by the strike anyhow. :cool:
Rauul 08-25-07, 07:28 AM	Just a question for clarification: I know the person who writes tictacs knows all the equipment of another character, but are the characters assumed to know also? In my specific example: Ryer casts a spell from a wand. He only has 1 wand in posession. Can Wooly infer that it has to be expeditious retreat even though he has not spellcraft and could not know it according to the plain rules? It doesn't really matter anyway for this fight, but it might in the future, so I would like to know :) I always make them use the Skills... Since thats what they are there for... and if they are concentrated into the none magical world.. then that wand to him could be a wand of Exp retreat or a wand of Fireball.. he has no way of knowing the difference (still want to make the mage with 4 wands glues together talk about confusing people)
templer10 08-25-07, 08:20 AM	Just a question for clarification: I know the person who writes tictacs knows all the equipment of another character, but are the characters assumed to know also? In my specific example: Ryer casts a spell from a wand. He only has 1 wand in posession. Can Wooly infer that it has to be expeditious retreat even though he has not spellcraft and could not know it according to the plain rules? It doesn't really matter anyway for this fight, but it might in the future, so I would like to know :) if they only have 1 wand - yes you can account for that - think of it as geeting an info sheet on someone and asking a knowladble friend what it is pre fight - if he has more then 1 wand you cant know what is being used on you in fight unless you heve relevent skills or it has an obvios effect
Zevox 08-25-07, 10:29 AM	@Guildmasters: I'm confused. I don't see any explicit mention of the strike on anyone's structures except TLT's. What's going on? Um, I forgot about it. Damn ongoing random events... HA! I see it now. Happened on Aug 15th. Totally missed it! WAR's in the middle of a lucky streak (Aug 8th) and is unaffected by the strike anyhow. :cool: Forgot about that, too. Gonna need to roll the chances to see if that continues past that first week or not... Zevox
mucki 08-25-07, 10:59 AM	thanks for the replies, I'll keep that in mind.
hogarth 08-25-07, 12:57 PM	Hey, there've been quite a few old faces lurking around recently: DSugui, Book5, Huan.
Book5 08-25-07, 03:19 PM	I am not lurking.. this is just home base. I have been inspecting the 4e/Gleemax scenario. "Gleemax and you.. shades of cthulu" I'll be back gonna go look at this "gleemax" a little more.
lonewolf 08-25-07, 04:03 PM	A situation has developed where my two friends, Mucki and whitebaron, who are both here the first week are not sure how to deal with it and asked me for help, so Im posting here: mucki is the pitlord in this fight and whitebaron one of the players. NiQil is the other. ... One last thing...a note on my opponent. My opponent does not own a divine focus (holy symbol or holly or something). As such, any spells requiring a divine focus cannot be cast. ... I think this way of dealing with this minor mistake is a harsh reaction even when dealing with long time members(just this week, I was allowed to get a spell component pouch for The Chameleon by poth pitlord and enemy of the fight. I know of multiple similar situations), but when dealing with new members that are doing their first fights at all in CoCo this is IMHO out of the line. Mucki as pitlord doesnt want to be looking as to favorize whitebaron because they are friends, but in this situation I believe that whitebarons character should of course be allowed to get a divine focus. Can I get some Elder(or better MWBs) input on this situation? thanks
NiQil 08-25-07, 04:12 PM	A situation has developed where my two friends, Mucki and whitebaron, who are both here the first week are not sure how to deal with it and asked me for help, so Im posting here: mucki is the pitlord in this fight and whitebaron one of the players. NiQil is the other. I think this way of dealing with this minor mistake is a harsh reaction even when dealing with long time members(just this week, I was allowed to get a spell component pouch for The Chameleon by poth pitlord and enemy of the fight. I know of multiple similar situations), but when dealing with new members that are doing their first fights at all in CoCo this is IMHO out of the line. Mucki as pitlord doesnt want to be looking as to favorize whitebaron because they are friends, but in this situation I believe that whitebarons character should of course be allowed to get a divine focus. Can I get some Elder(or better MWBs) input on this situation? thanks What is stated in my tactics is 100% true. However, as I stated in my most recent message to mucki via PM, since this falls into the Prison realm, the Prison guidelines state that the allowance of an item or substitution of an item is entirely at pitlord discretion. I advised mucki that I would leave it in his hands.
mucki 08-25-07, 04:16 PM	As NiQil said that I can rule as Pitlord, and seeing that there is precedent to allow this, I ruled that this is in fact an oversight and Wooly gets a divine focus. Thanks everyone for helping to clear it up.
Book5 08-25-07, 04:17 PM	Cmon.. nooby.. Default equipment! :smirk: you shoulda seen how many times my guys were run through the prison. and on the feild too - both my gladiators were mega failures. Me I have often let players pay masterwork cost to have their divine focus worked into their armor and equipment. Allowing your helmet or sheild to function as a divine focus. its pretty core actually. just add the masterwork cost to the item, and the cost of the holy symbol. Doesn't work for Druids.. but they can use improvised clubs (we call them sticks) as divine focus.. so... balances out.
mucki 08-26-07, 06:22 AM	The domain hwx.it (the computer where the CoCo dice roller and battle map run) seems to be experienceing some kind of DNS failure currently. The computer is up, but some people (me, eamane) are unable to reach it. You can fix this by adding the following line into your hosts file: 83.103.68.207 www.hwx.it You can find the file here: Windows: C:\Windows\System32\drivers\etc\hosts Linux (and probably mac also, dunno): /etc/hosts @Dracazar: If you happen to read this, from over here it looks like the nameservers listed in your whois entry do not carry your domain anymore ... you might want to check into that ;-)
Eamane 08-26-07, 06:32 AM	@mucki Thanks for the precise and easy to accomplish fix! I've actually had a similar problem happen to specific websites before, it's good to know that there is a fix that doesn't involve typing in an ip address every time I want to go to their site.
Book5 08-26-07, 03:22 PM	heh..server problems There is nothing quite like returning to an old familiar place. Like a familiar face you know you will find something similar but different, something unexpectedly the same, and something entirely new written within the eyes of somebody that isn't a stranger. Often you find that not much has really changed at all, but nonetheless you are always filled with such anticipation as you open that door or click on that button. Look, see, and find out how well your unrepentant prophet's eye can see. How well you predicted the future. How right you are? This, your humble narrator, your faithful journalist, can only declare that he was unprepared for the astounding changes that have been wrought upon the face of the CoCo so quickly. I've been gone a roughly equivalent amount of time compared to that I originally spent posting on CoCo. A year and a half or so.. and while I was gone The Mind Wanderer's Big Eye has opened in the skies above the streets of Gladius. Still the place is “the same” in a most important way. The tavern filled with partial conversation and general Q&A churning away. I have not found for certain what has happened to the Shining Angel that once guarded the city, but the Eye in the sky is more than familiar to me. I knew it when it was but an little arcane eye. As have most of us old school CoCoian. Small, tiny even, slipping sideway along dimensional barriers, visiting other realms both upper, lower, and lateralwise. A busy Boy if I ever did see one. He would certainly have to be! Considering he is the Game Master of one of the real Master Games. This CoCo bag ain't no small thing. Its a machine, a beast, made of men and RAW unmitigated rules. Rules.. those paragons of Word. I hear the persistent babble and mutterings of advice, questions, amusement, and general occ. Good lord! TM has kids!? Theres Telin something about the church of Denth?. I give mad props to TelinArthro. He has a skill with this system the likes of which you have to see to believe. Telin.. you ask “Why does the Sahaugin have no swim skill? Thats weird!?” Honestly man, I gotta ask “Why does the Triton (or any race with a swim speed) have swim ranks?” Under what circumstance does a Triton's +9 swim check come into play? Not that I don't think there should be a Run skill that can be used to get an edge over in a sprinting race, is there a point that swim comes into play over a swim speed? How would the Olympics look if we tried to play them out all RAW? Pretty “weird” I think. What one wise man doesn't expect, another will most likely be prepared for. Hence they travel in threes. The city map is new, and now there are lighting conditions. Very nice. Lordy Me! Color me surprised.. 4E!? No way. My timing ... couldn't be ... Might have to poke around this “gleemax” deal guys. Saw it.. A while back. Seems weird. I'll let ya ...know... Continuing with my live correspondence of Tavern X! I am still rocked by the revelation that I can post on the “year long wait” for the 4E and I am feeling as you are feeling some strange sort of peril for our beloved CoCo machine. Plots matriculate, plans are forming. B... I will speak to you of these things. Presently. I round a bend and there I am again. “I think this is where I came in” but unlike the movie in that 1930's theater that first overheard that sayign. Unlike that land of afore time from which said epitaph hails from. That time when movies played over and over again all day long and only cost 4 cents to see. When I get back to that post which was ..my first page in this particular tavern log book ..the story will transition into a novelty. How does the team reply to such soggy suggestions? What will you say to my return? .... :D Hey guys. :D Good to see you too! :D What can I say? The system looks better than ever. I will be spending a few weeks reviewing the changes and many of the fights, have I ever told you I like reading the fights? Meanwhile I plan on acting a bit of the fool in various other (gleemax) forums. “Advertise” as they say send some people the CoCo way. The last time I was here the CoCo contained nearly twice the numbers it does now. Thats something I wasn't expecting. I figured that it would be twice the size. Perhaps.. that is the message of the mysterious release of 4E. Perhaps D&D 3.5 (and etc) has taken a “downturn” on the larger market. Time to make a Big Press release. A slightly smaller CoCo simply a reflex action of that grander phenomena. The forums at large seem... smaller than they used to.. maybe its just me. strange This world seems suddenly so unusual with that name Gleemax looking down on us. A giant number four and a letter E carve shadows on the face of countless worlds, and the sun sets on something of a phenomena. I was one of those who said “good riddance” to 2.x when it went. Blah! To ThAC0. Bye! To “Dwarves can't be wizards” or whatever gibberish was littered through D&D 2.x, but I really like 3.x. Its a beautiful action system with amazing potential. Perhaps 4.0 will be the false dawn of pay for play D&D or maybe it will be the twilight of a dying “free love” pen and paper age. Good by “table top” hello “Buttons and BS” Click click click makes the character. Microphone and Webcam for every player and were off! Maybe. Probably. Brb. OK! Got it. Umm. Just don't worry about gleemax for now. It'll be fine. 4E is a marketing and logo protection thing.. 3.x and all that is still OGL. However “D20 and D&D” are “moving on” so to speak. End of an Age? Nah! Just the Beginning! Believe it! Some people are actually addicted to the alliterated word and for every 10 men that want the auto-magical click and go game there will be at least one that prefers the more classical play by post game. CoCo serves a different sort of player – the rules masters. IRL face time Table Top serves yet another. So with Larping. SCA. And MMORPers. Now introducing.. Click and Players. “Buttons and BS” Boys. Brought to you by Gleemax and 4E. The most advanced and interactive (with the best funding and largest existing fanbase) “community” website. A Mytube meets geekier Youspace. Thats what Gleemax is. Non-Editional, Non-Trademarked.. GamerSpace. Gleemax. God save your souls my fellow CoCoian Gentlemen and Ladies.... Once upon a time you had a profile on boards1.wizards.com, but for now and from now on your profile is already your “Gleespace” you are at this time signed up and approved. You will need do nothing save “login” and configure your new preferences when the GleeDay comes. You already belong.. and they are only going to let us get away with more. Gleemax is not a lockdown. No end of the line. Why when Gleemax arrives? We could have a FR Coliseum if we wanna, a DragonLance one, a Starjammer, DarkSun, Al-Quadim (for goodness sake) I mean.. We could have a WoD 1.4 game and play it in the “CoCo on Gleemaax.” .. as far as I can tell it will be possible and not only possible ... thats what they apparently want us to do!? Wow. Gleemax will be non-trademarked. Its a Gamers Place on The Internet. Live Journal meets a forum with dice. strange Shadowrun Coliseum anyone? Don't ask me to build it.. but when the time comes.. I don't think we will have to. If we want to go through with “that” .. we need only serve as an example.. to newcomers. An example of how its done. Long live the CoCo! 3.5 or otherwise! Play in the CoCo and become a True Master of the rules! I will be back with some more “Gladius” focused prose soon. Though.... hmmm.For now a Tantastic Preview. We here at the Gladosian Weekly News have it on good report that a group of well known Gladiators were spotted meeting in secret outside the city. A local by the name of Tan claimed to have witnessed the event (location). He claims that he heard the sound of Vrocks attacking, and the telltale sounds of powerful magic (verify) being used to defend against them. The local arena looser, immigrant to the city, claims to have sneaked up closer to the scene and gotten a better look. He claims to have recognized Vandelar the Red of TAO fame “and other Gladiators from the Arena” but was unable or unwilling to reveal further information at this time. An unnamed source also tells us that the Church of Denth is somehow involved with this unusual affair. The Gladosian Weekly News Network will keep you up to date as more reports come in! What are these Gladiators doing outside of the protective field of the Nimbus? And what does the Church of Denth have to do with all this? Only Time Will Tell! Seriously Guys! All through the Tavern X (which I reviewed from page 1) the build up for this Church of Denth thing has been been rolling the whole time, and you are just now starting it? Whew. This should be interesting! be back after I have read some more of the new rules.. and of further developments regarding this "Church of Denth" .... duh duh DuUuUuH! :rimshot:
Rauul 08-26-07, 06:03 PM	heh..server problems There is nothing quite like returning to an old familiar place. Like a familiar face you know you will find something similar but different, something unexpectedly the same, and something entirely new written within the eyes of somebody that isn't a stranger. Often you find that not much has really changed at all, but nonetheless you are always filled with such anticipation as you open that door or click on that button. Look, see, and find out how well your unrepentant prophet's eye can see. How well you predicted the future. How right you are? This, your humble narrator, your faithful journalist, can only declare that he was unprepared for the astounding changes that have been wrought upon the face of the CoCo so quickly. I've been gone a roughly equivalent amount of time compared to that I originally spent posting on CoCo. A year and a half or so.. and while I was gone The Mind Wanderer's Big Eye has opened in the skies above the streets of Gladius. Still the place is “the same” in a most important way. The tavern filled with partial conversation and general Q&A churning away. I have not found for certain what has happened to the Shining Angel that once guarded the city, but the Eye in the sky is more than familiar to me. I knew it when it was but an little arcane eye. As have most of us old school CoCoian. Small, tiny even, slipping sideway along dimensional barriers, visiting other realms both upper, lower, and lateralwise. A busy Boy if I ever did see one. He would certainly have to be! Considering he is the Game Master of one of the real Master Games. This CoCo bag ain't no small thing. Its a machine, a beast, made of men and RAW unmitigated rules. Rules.. those paragons of Word. I hear the persistent babble and mutterings of advice, questions, amusement, and general occ. Good lord! TM has kids!? Theres Telin something about the church of Denth?. I give mad props to TelinArthro. He has a skill with this system the likes of which you have to see to believe. Telin.. you ask “Why does the Sahaugin have no swim skill? Thats weird!?” Honestly man, I gotta ask “Why does the Triton (or any race with a swim speed) have swim ranks?” Under what circumstance does a Triton's +9 swim check come into play? Not that I don't think there should be a Run skill that can be used to get an edge over in a sprinting race, is there a point that swim comes into play over a swim speed? How would the Olympics look if we tried to play them out all RAW? Pretty “weird” I think. What one wise man doesn't expect, another will most likely be prepared for. Hence they travel in threes. The city map is new, and now there are lighting conditions. Very nice. Lordy Me! Color me surprised.. 4E!? No way. My timing ... couldn't be ... Might have to poke around this “gleemax” deal guys. Saw it.. A while back. Seems weird. I'll let ya ...know... Continuing with my live correspondence of Tavern X! I am still rocked by the revelation that I can post on the “year long wait” for the 4E and I am feeling as you are feeling some strange sort of peril for our beloved CoCo machine. Plots matriculate, plans are forming. B... I will speak to you of these things. Presently. I round a bend and there I am again. “I think this is where I came in” but unlike the movie in that 1930's theater that first overheard that sayign. Unlike that land of afore time from which said epitaph hails from. That time when movies played over and over again all day long and only cost 4 cents to see. When I get back to that post which was ..my first page in this particular tavern log book ..the story will transition into a novelty. How does the team reply to such soggy suggestions? What will you say to my return? .... :D Hey guys. :D Good to see you too! :D What can I say? The system looks better than ever. I will be spending a few weeks reviewing the changes and many of the fights, have I ever told you I like reading the fights? Meanwhile I plan on acting a bit of the fool in various other (gleemax) forums. “Advertise” as they say send some people the CoCo way. The last time I was here the CoCo contained nearly twice the numbers it does now. Thats something I wasn't expecting. I figured that it would be twice the size. Perhaps.. that is the message of the mysterious release of 4E. Perhaps D&D 3.5 (and etc) has taken a “downturn” on the larger market. Time to make a Big Press release. A slightly smaller CoCo simply a reflex action of that grander phenomena. The forums at large seem... smaller than they used to.. maybe its just me. strange This world seems suddenly so unusual with that name Gleemax looking down on us. A giant number four and a letter E carve shadows on the face of countless worlds, and the sun sets on something of a phenomena. I was one of those who said “good riddance” to 2.x when it went. Blah! To ThAC0. Bye! To “Dwarves can't be wizards” or whatever gibberish was littered through D&D 2.x, but I really like 3.x. Its a beautiful action system with amazing potential. Perhaps 4.0 will be the false dawn of pay for play D&D or maybe it will be the twilight of a dying “free love” pen and paper age. Good by “table top” hello “Buttons and BS” Click click click makes the character. Microphone and Webcam for every player and were off! Maybe. Probably. Brb. OK! Got it. Umm. Just don't worry about gleemax for now. It'll be fine. 4E is a marketing and logo protection thing.. 3.x and all that is still OGL. However “D20 and D&D” are “moving on” so to speak. End of an Age? Nah! Just the Beginning! Believe it! Some people are actually addicted to the alliterated word and for every 10 men that want the auto-magical click and go game there will be at least one that prefers the more classical play by post game. CoCo serves a different sort of player – the rules masters. IRL face time Table Top serves yet another. So with Larping. SCA. And MMORPers. Now introducing.. Click and Players. “Buttons and BS” Boys. Brought to you by Gleemax and 4E. The most advanced and interactive (with the best funding and largest existing fanbase) “community” website. A Mytube meets geekier Youspace. Thats what Gleemax is. Non-Editional, Non-Trademarked.. GamerSpace. Gleemax. God save your souls my fellow CoCoian Gentlemen and Ladies.... Once upon a time you had a profile on boards1.wizards.com, but for now and from now on your profile is already your “Gleespace” you are at this time signed up and approved. You will need do nothing save “login” and configure your new preferences when the GleeDay comes. You already belong.. and they are only going to let us get away with more. Gleemax is not a lockdown. No end of the line. Why when Gleemax arrives? We could have a FR Coliseum if we wanna, a DragonLance one, a Starjammer, DarkSun, Al-Quadim (for goodness sake) I mean.. We could have a WoD 1.4 game and play it in the “CoCo on Gleemaax.” .. as far as I can tell it will be possible and not only possible ... thats what they apparently want us to do!? Wow. Gleemax will be non-trademarked. Its a Gamers Place on The Internet. Live Journal meets a forum with dice. strange Shadowrun Coliseum anyone? Don't ask me to build it.. but when the time comes.. I don't think we will have to. If we want to go through with “that” .. we need only serve as an example.. to newcomers. An example of how its done. Long live the CoCo! 3.5 or otherwise! Play in the CoCo and become a True Master of the rules! I will be back with some more “Gladius” focused prose soon. Though.... hmmm.For now a Tantastic Preview. We here at the Gladosian Weekly News have it on good report that a group of well known Gladiators were spotted meeting in secret outside the city. A local by the name of Tan claimed to have witnessed the event (location). He claims that he heard the sound of Vrocks attacking, and the telltale sounds of powerful magic (verify) being used to defend against them. The local arena looser, immigrant to the city, claims to have sneaked up closer to the scene and gotten a better look. He claims to have recognized Vandelar the Red of TAO fame “and other Gladiators from the Arena” but was unable or unwilling to reveal further information at this time. An unnamed source also tells us that the Church of Denth is somehow involved with this unusual affair. The Gladosian Weekly News Network will keep you up to date as more reports come in! What are these Gladiators doing outside of the protective field of the Nimbus? And what does the Church of Denth have to do with all this? Only Time Will Tell! Seriously Guys! All through the Tavern X (which I reviewed from page 1) the build up for this Church of Denth thing has been been rolling the whole time, and you are just now starting it? Whew. This should be interesting! be back after I have read some more of the new rules.. and of further developments regarding this "Church of Denth" .... duh duh DuUuUuH! :rimshot: Hi yea Book.. don't know you.. but i like what you say... and gawd you are long winded LOL Welcome back
Taureus_Drakken 08-26-07, 06:25 PM	@ All: Maybe I am missing something, but does someone need credits to have his/her character go on a mini-quest? I know you need a minimum of 3 credits for a standard 3-week quest. But I can't seem to piece together the requisites mini-quests. If someone could be helpful and point me in the right direction, I would greatly appreciate it. It wouldn't be this week, but within the next month (real-time) that I would be interested in sending Ackbar on a mini-quest. Thanks in advance!! ¬Taureus¬
whitebaron 08-26-07, 06:27 PM	mini quest: counts for 2 active characters, costs no credits. its in the rules (somewhere) ;)
Taureus_Drakken 08-26-07, 06:49 PM	@ whitebaron: So all I have to do is PM one of the QL's who is looking for a quest, and tell them I am looking to send Ackbar on a mini-quest? I guess it would mean holding off on that second character I was making for a little while longer... :D (not a bad thing by any means if it means sending Ackbar after something interesting) ¬Taureus¬
Salrantol 08-26-07, 07:06 PM	@ whitebaron: So all I have to do is PM one of the QL's who is looking for a quest, and tell them I am looking to send Ackbar on a mini-quest?If you don't find a QL interested, it will be randomly assigned a pitlord like an arena fight.
Taureus_Drakken 08-26-07, 07:25 PM	Lucky for me there's three who are interested this week. I just went ahead and PMed them all. After thinking about it, I would rather not wait up to a month to send Ackbar on a quest, so I said possibly next week. I guess time will tell. ¬Taureus¬
Rauul 08-26-07, 07:56 PM	Lucky for me there's three who are interested this week. I just went ahead and PMed them all. After thinking about it, I would rather not wait up to a month to send Ackbar on a quest, so I said possibly next week. I guess time will tell. ¬Taureus¬ I can do a Miniquest (it's under my pitlord options) all you have to do is in the ready area QL(name)
hogarth 08-26-07, 08:33 PM	NOW RECRUITING FOR A (SHORT) CAMPAIGN Hi folks! I'm thinking about starting a new 6 week campaign for 3 ECL 4 characters against EL 6 encounters. The basic idea behind it is that a merchant hires the adventurers to retrieve the body of his son (a crusading paladin) from an uninhabited island. Or is it uninhabited? :detect: It would be called "Five Princes Bar The Way". Anyone interested? Note that you're allowed to achieve up to three Questgoals in a campaign (e.g. get a leadership cohort, handle animal ally, qualify for a prestige class, etc.) but it costs 5 credits to join.
Sjiggie 08-26-07, 08:52 PM	Xanavar is interested he just made it to ECL 4.
Eamane 08-26-07, 08:54 PM	NOW RECRUITING FOR A (SHORT) CAMPAIGN Hi folks! I'm thinking about starting a new 6 week campaign for 3 ECL 4 characters against EL 6 encounters. The basic idea behind it is that a merchant hires the adventurers to retrieve the body of his son (a crusading paladin) from an uninhabited island. Or is it uninhabited? :detect: It would be called "Five Princes Bar The Way". Anyone interested? Note that you're allowed to achieve up to three Questgoals in a campaign (e.g. get a leadership cohort, handle animal ally, qualify for a prestige class, etc.) but it costs 5 credits to join. Ooo a campaign! And it's short enough that it'll likely be successfully finished! Eamane will be ECL 4 (Psion 3/Wizard 1) after next week; Kykal (Nearly every BAB +1 class) may or may not be the same in a bit after her (Wasn't planning to activate her, so I can store up the credits I'll need for things like this). So I can slot in as a a caster or front-liner' whatever the need be.
hogarth 08-26-07, 09:04 PM	Ooo a campaign! And it's short enough that it'll likely be successfully finished! My sentiments exactly. :D Eamane will be ECL 4 (Psion 3/Wizard 1) after next week; Kykal (Nearly every BAB +1 class) may or may not be the same in a bit after her (Wasn't planning to activate her, so I can store up the credits I'll need for things like this). So I can slot in as a a caster or front-liner' whatever the need be. The campaign won't start until after Labour Day at a minimum (since I'm gone for the long weekend). I'll set aside two slots for Sjiggie and Eamane; there's still room for a third. Note that some healing may be required, so at least one character with some ability at that might be nice.
Sjiggie 08-26-07, 09:11 PM	Xanavar can always pick up a wand of cure light wounds if needed but some healing would be nice.
Vathelokai 08-26-07, 11:44 PM	NOW RECRUITING FOR A (SHORT) CAMPAIGN Hrmmm... I'd like to. I do limit myself on how many characters I have running about; that is, since I have Auburn out on a campaign, I'll wait and see how many applicants you get before volunteering. I have Tweak in that ECL range. Super mobile and lots of allies. Then I have a build I have never activated. Eventual melee ... thing. Don't really know what to call it. It's set up for ECL 5 right now, but I can drop a class lv.
Taureus_Drakken 08-26-07, 11:59 PM	I can do a Miniquest (it's under my pitlord options) all you have to do is in the ready area QL(name) I am confused by the last half of what you said. I understand that you could run it, but I guess I am failing to see what you mean by "ready area QL(name)". And since I haven't heard back from anyone as of yet, I will take you into consideration to possibly run my quest. So far the idea I have is to send Ackbar after some sort of item...not sure as I don't know the optimal EL to propose going up...though I think it is limited to being equal to my ECL. I can shoot you a PM with more details if you like. If I don't hear from anyone else I will have a better frame for a quest goal by Friday at the latest. ¬Taureus¬
Callix 08-27-07, 03:04 AM	Put "Mini-Quest QL(name of questlord)" in the subject line of your character sheet. Once you have found a questlord and organised a quest goal, that is.
MindWandererB 08-27-07, 03:50 AM	Put "Mini-Quest QL(name of questlord)" in the subject line of your character sheet. Once you have found a questlord and organised a quest goal, that is. Correction: the title line should read ECL <#>: Ready for <date> (fight <#>); Miniquest for <questgoal> (QL <name>)
TelinArtho 08-27-07, 09:40 AM	I am confused by the last half of what you said. I understand that you could run it, but I guess I am failing to see what you mean by "ready area QL(name)". And since I haven't heard back from anyone as of yet, I will take you into consideration to possibly run my quest. So far the idea I have is to send Ackbar after some sort of item...not sure as I don't know the optimal EL to propose going up...though I think it is limited to being equal to my ECL. I can shoot you a PM with more details if you like. If I don't hear from anyone else I will have a better frame for a quest goal by Friday at the latest. ¬Taureus¬ I'm glad you have someone to run it. I've been pretty full up lately (especially with 2 quests running late...), so I can't take more on my plate right now.
Rauul 08-27-07, 12:32 PM	My sentiments exactly. :D The campaign won't start until after Labour Day at a minimum (since I'm gone for the long weekend). I'll set aside two slots for Sjiggie and Eamane; there's still room for a third. Note that some healing may be required, so at least one character with some ability at that might be nice. Have Mead will travel... Gortek Chaoslayer (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13229479&postcount=1195) is ready and willing to kick arse and take names for some gold and maybe a Bard to tell others of his doom.. :) (and he is ECL 3 still (can switch out the cloak of resistance +1 for a Wand of CLW for a tad bit of healing.. )
Rauul 08-27-07, 12:38 PM	I am confused by the last half of what you said. I understand that you could run it, but I guess I am failing to see what you mean by "ready area QL(name)". And since I haven't heard back from anyone as of yet, I will take you into consideration to possibly run my quest. So far the idea I have is to send Ackbar after some sort of item...not sure as I don't know the optimal EL to propose going up...though I think it is limited to being equal to my ECL. I can shoot you a PM with more details if you like. If I don't hear from anyone else I will have a better frame for a quest goal by Friday at the latest. ¬Taureus¬ Sorry what MWB said ... ECL <#>: Ready for <date> (fight <#>); Miniquest for <questgoal> (QL <name>) Send me a PM on what you want to accomplish with the Miniquest.. and i will get it running..
TelinArtho 08-27-07, 04:05 PM	I'm in the middle of working on a rebuild of my old Sahuagin mutant character and noticed something. I want to make sure I'm not reading more into this so: Proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry. Now the sahuagin mentions the trident in the stat block - so that one's obvious. However, I noticed this in the entry as well: Sahuagin are savage fighters, asking for and giving no quarter. When swimming, a sahuagin tears with its feet as it strikes with its talons or a weapon. About half of any group of sahuagin are also armed with nets. So - does this mean sahuagin are also proficient with nets? Wasn't really planning on using them - but if they are - it might be worth considering...
Eamane 08-27-07, 04:39 PM	So - does this mean sahuagin are also proficient with nets? Wasn't really planning on using them - but if they are - it might be worth considering... Seems clear enough to me that they are mentioned; they don't have to be in the stat block to be mentioned, the other stuff is still part of the monster's 'entry' (and quite important to boot). I'd say they are proficient.
Erithmu 08-27-07, 06:43 PM	Pulled from the prison You can take feats without meeting their prerequisites, they just won't function until you meet said prerequisites. (Which means that normally, doing so is pointless) It's an odd and rarely invoked rule that was given in reference to magical items/magical effects that temporarily/sporadically give certain attributes (A druid can take Improved Natural Attack: Bite, for instance, despite not having a bite attack in their natural form).Prerequisites Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he or she gains the prerequisite. A character can’t use a feat if he or she has lost a prerequisite. Imp grap/Unarmed strike = dex requirement. I would love to see where your rule is, as I'll start taking Bab +5 feats before I can use them.
Eamane 08-27-07, 07:20 PM	Pulled from the prison Imp grap/Unarmed strike = dex requirement. I would love to see where your rule is, as I'll start taking Bab +5 feats before I can use them. D&D 3.5 FAQ (Most recent version) page 39 A feat sometimes requires you to have a certain ability score, which is the case with Two-weapon Fighting (it requires Dex 15). A character has, say, Dex 13, but wears an item, in this case gloves of Dexterity +2, and now her Dex score is 15. Can she take the feat and have it be active only when she wears the item? Actually yes, she could take the feat, but would lose the use of the feat if, for whatever reason, she loses the bonus from the item. It's pretty silly, since it indirectly contradicts the statement that prerequisites must be met to select a feat, but there you have it. Often I've seen this answer interpreted to only apply to attribute changing magical items, but I'd be surprised if that was the spirit of the ruling. To me the spirit of this statement is that you can take feats even when you don't qualify them, then use temporary/permanent effects to qualify for them later. It does rather mess with the established wisdom of having to take feats in certain orders/grabbing certain feats because they are the best you can get at any given time, not because they are optimal.
Erithmu 08-27-07, 07:23 PM	What I'm saying is ... Gareth didn't even have the item when he took the feats ... he got the dex gloves at like ECL 11 and took the feats at ECL 6. Note that the text describes wearing the item, not that you can take the feat w/out meeting the prereqs.
Eamane 08-27-07, 07:29 PM	What I'm saying is ... Gareth didn't even have the item when he took the feats ... he got the dex gloves at like ECL 11 and took the feats at ECL 6. Note that the text describes wearing the item, not that you can take the feat w/out meeting the prereqs. Like I said, my interpretation is a 'ramification' one (i.e: if this works this way, what are the logical ramifications for similar situations? Like druids with improved natural attack, for instance) Or, to provide a specific example. Say at ECL 6 he had access to a Cat's Grace spell cast on him from a wizard/etc. Could he take the feat? If not, why not? Lets say he was going to have access to cat's grace/gloves of dexterity and wanted to take the feat. Could he take the feat? If not, why not? (Aside from the already contradicted prerequisite feat text). And again, I'll point out that I think the ramifications are silly, but if you want to be consistent, it's what you get. That or toss in some house rules (heh).
MindWandererB 08-27-07, 07:36 PM	D&D 3.5 FAQ (Most recent version) page 39 It's pretty silly, since it indirectly contradicts the statement that prerequisites must be met to select a feat, but there you have it. Often I've seen this answer interpreted to only apply to attribute changing magical items, but I'd be surprised if that was the spirit of the ruling. To me the spirit of this statement is that you can take feats even when you don't qualify them, then use temporary/permanent effects to qualify for them later. It does rather mess with the established wisdom of having to take feats in certain orders/grabbing certain feats because they are the best you can get at any given time, not because they are optimal. Unfortunately, the logic that they followed seems to be that if you "own" an item that can cause you to qualify, you can take the feat. That doesn't make any sense (how does the feat know what you own?), but it's the rule they follow, and there's no suggestion anywhere to the contrary. I happen to agree with your logic, but I don't believe that's what they intended. For instance, they had to errata several animals with Weapon Finesse as their 1-HD feat because they didn't qualify for it. By your logic, they could have taken it anyway, and just wouldn't be able to use it until they gained their second HD (which is immediate anyway).
Eamane 08-27-07, 07:40 PM	Unfortunately, the logic that they followed seems to be that if you "own" an item that can cause you to qualify, you can take the feat. That doesn't make any sense (how does the feat know what you own?), but it's the rule they follow, and there's no suggestion anywhere to the contrary. I happen to agree with your logic, but I don't believe that's what they intended. For instance, they had to errata several animals with Weapon Finesse as their 1-HD feat because they didn't qualify for it. By your logic, they could have taken it anyway, and just wouldn't be able to use it until they gained their second HD (which is immediate anyway). I never said they always had it work this way. It was probably an answer that was thrown out ad-hoc in a response to that particular question (though I've seen a more formal version of the rule in a 3.0 rulebook; Tome and Blood, I think). That said, though it is patently impossible for a feat to know what you own, I'd be fine if thats how we interpreted this. Do other forms of enhancement meet the same criteria? (Spells you can cast vs ones that can be cast on you, Supernatural/Extraordinary abilities/etc) EDIT: And if it's 'only items' to keep it simple, would a wand of bull's strength/cat's grace still qualify? ^_^
MindWandererB 08-27-07, 07:56 PM	I could have sworn we addressed this in the court decisions, but I can't find it now. You referenced 3.0--it's clearly a holdover from that edition (when a headband of intellect could give you skill points if you wore it for a whole level). I think we should follow that logic--if you have some kind of effect that's basically permanent, you can use it to meet a prereq. So you could use Bracers of Archery to take Weapon Focus (longbow), even if you're not inherently proficient. But temporary effects, regardless of where they come from (even an at-will item--you aren't using it all the time) don't count.
Vathelokai 08-27-07, 08:09 PM	I could have sworn we addressed this in the court decisions, but I can't find it now. I know we did. Used the same quotes at each other and everything. I believe we ruled that you cannot use items to qualify for feats. Then again, I believe that was before I was an elder.
Eamane 08-27-07, 08:19 PM	I could have sworn we addressed this in the court decisions, but I can't find it now. You referenced 3.0--it's clearly a holdover from that edition (when a headband of intellect could give you skill points if you wore it for a whole level). I think we should follow that logic--if you have some kind of effect that's basically permanent, you can use it to meet a prereq. So you could use Bracers of Archery to take Weapon Focus (longbow), even if you're not inherently proficient. But temporary effects, regardless of where they come from (even an at-will item--you aren't using it all the time) don't count. Ah, I did some digging through the boards and found what had lead me to the my wide view. Meeting Class Requirements: It's possible for a character to take levels in a prestige class and later be in a position where the character no longer qualifies to be a member of the class. An alignment change, levels lost because of character death, or the loss of a magic item that granted an important ability are examples of events that can make a character ineligible to advance farther in a prestige class. If a character no longer meets the requirements for a prestige class, he or she loses the benefit of any class features or other special abilities granted by the class. The character retains Hit Dice gained from advancing in the class as well as any improvements to base attack bonus and base save bonuses that the class provided. That, combined with the FAQ statement, lead me to believe that the broader application was the 'spirit' of the rule. A more limited interpretation is fine though, as long as it's a consistent one ;) Would wildshape be considers 'basically permanent' since it doesn't have an upper end to the duration? (I.E: They never have to change back, if they don't want to)
MindWandererB 08-27-07, 08:22 PM	Would wildshape be considers 'basically permanent' since it doesn't have an upper end to the duration? (I.E: They never have to change back, if they don't want to)Um, yeah they do. At least, until they hit level 24 (since it's 1 hour/level).
Eamane 08-27-07, 08:43 PM	Um, yeah they do. At least, until they hit level 24 (since it's 1 hour/level). They do? Well, reading the ability in question before asking about it would have been tech; But to clarify, that means something usable 1+/day or more with a duration of 24 hours+ is fair game? Like the 'Alter(nate) Form' abilities of various monsters, which are generally at will and last until they use the ability again. Specific example: Werecreatures. It's very easy for them to have one form which has radically different attributes from another, which they can switch between freely. They can still take improved natural weapon, weapon focus (claws) or power attack even when their human form doesn't qualify for said feats, right?
hogarth 08-27-07, 08:52 PM	Have Mead will travel... Gortek Chaoslayer (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13229479&postcount=1195) is ready and willing to kick arse and take names for some gold and maybe a Bard to tell others of his doom.. :) (and he is ECL 3 still (can switch out the cloak of resistance +1 for a Wand of CLW for a tad bit of healing.. ) Well, if no other level 4 character volunteers in the meantime (and if Tweak! isn't interested), I'll let Gortek join once he levels. But for now there's still an open slot...
MindWandererB 08-28-07, 12:13 AM	Specific example: Werecreatures. It's very easy for them to have one form which has radically different attributes from another, which they can switch between freely. They can still take improved natural weapon, weapon focus (claws) or power attack even when their human form doesn't qualify for said feats, right?I would say so, yes.
whitebaron 08-28-07, 09:13 AM	rules question: You can charge your ranged attacks with additional damage potential. Prerequisite: Point Blank Shot. Benefit: To use this feat, you must expend your psionic focus. Your ranged attack deals +2d6 points of damage. You must decide whether or not to use this feat prior to making an attack. If your attack misses, you still expend your psionic focus. A ray of freezing air and ice projects from your pointing finger. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack with the ray to deal damage to a target. The ray deals 1d3 points of cold damage. would this (or any other ray) work in combination?
lonewolf 08-28-07, 09:21 AM	yes :D
whitebaron 08-28-07, 09:22 AM	well, then you'll know what to expect for thursday. :) (just not at ecl3. )
waywreth 08-28-07, 09:46 AM	If anyone has the opportunity to check over Gaston's new cleric cohort I'd greatly appreciate. It's been a long time since I've made a cleric, so any suggestions you have would also be appreciated. He's fairly naked now, but that's due to Gaston being midcycle, so anything he has is borrowed from Gaston. Thanks,
Zevox 08-28-07, 12:43 PM	If anyone has the opportunity to check over Gaston's new cleric cohort I'd greatly appreciate. It's been a long time since I've made a cleric, so any suggestions you have would also be appreciated. He's fairly naked now, but that's due to Gaston being midcycle, so anything he has is borrowed from Gaston. Thanks, Well, you have his con bonus and hp wrong. A 14 con is only +2, so 52 hp, fort +8. He needs skills, too - at the least the required ones (Balance, climb, hide, jump, move silently, listen, spot), and whatever he spends skill points on (I'm guessing concentration?). Also, he doesn't get all of his spell levels in one week IIRC - we fixed that by putting cohorts on their own cycle which doesn't advance if they aren't in a fight but resets at the same time as their master's. Incidentally, you going to activate Gaston next week? I've got Istima set to ready then, and it'd be nice to have some non-monster competition. Zevox
lonewolf 08-28-07, 12:49 PM	I could activate Samuel and we could have a nice ECL12 FFA, or better yet hunter fight. :schemes:
hogarth 08-28-07, 12:57 PM	Incidentally, you going to activate Gaston next week? I've got Istima set to ready then, and it'd be nice to have some non-monster competition. I'd like to see some of those monster fights some time. A Greater Barghest with 11 levels of Wilder? An ECL 31 Hill Giant Giant Weresquid? A Phrenic Roc?
waywreth 08-28-07, 01:05 PM	Well, you have his con bonus and hp wrong. A 14 con is only +2, so 52 hp, fort +8. He needs skills, too - at the least the required ones (Balance, climb, hide, jump, move silently, listen, spot), and whatever he spends skill points on (I'm guessing concentration?). Also, he doesn't get all of his spell levels in one week IIRC - we fixed that by putting cohorts on their own cycle which doesn't advance if they aren't in a fight but resets at the same time as their master's. Incidentally, you going to activate Gaston next week? I've got Istima set to ready then, and it'd be nice to have some non-monster competition. Zevox Thanks Zevox. I knew about the skills, but I figured that'd be easy to do considering he's got 2 points per level to spend, and one gets dumped into concentration. Do you have the place where those cohort rules are? Seems sort of odd considering I can't buy anything for him yet either until the cycle is over. And yes, I was planning to active Gaston so long as I get his cohort built to my satisfaction. @lonewolf - Protection from evil for the win!
TelinArtho 08-28-07, 01:07 PM	Cohorts are restricted the 3FC of the main character - so if you get him mid-cycle - they would have a fairly high number of spells available. They do not have their own cycle (though that was an idea proposed).
Zevox 08-28-07, 01:19 PM	I could activate Samuel and we could have a nice ECL12 FFA, or better yet hunter fight. :schemes: Pah, just a low-hp Ghost Wilder. Easy to defend against, and one successful Empowered Crystal Shard and you're history :P . Thanks Zevox. I knew about the skills, but I figured that'd be easy to do considering he's got 2 points per level to spend, and one gets dumped into concentration. Do you have the place where those cohort rules are? Seems sort of odd considering I can't buy anything for him yet either until the cycle is over. And yes, I was planning to active Gaston so long as I get his cohort built to my satisfaction. Hm, I can't seem to find them. Odd - I know the fact that it was horrendously abuseable for a cohort to be allowed to use more spells/pp in fights 2 and 3 if it didn't participate in fight 1/2, and that was the solution that was settled on, but I'm not where in the rules it is. Anybody else know? And great, that'd be cool. A match between PSI's two highest-level Psions ought to be pretty fun. I'd like to see some of those monster fights some time. A Greater Barghest with 11 levels of Wilder? An ECL 31 Hill Giant Giant Weresquid? A Phrenic Roc? Half of the big monsters in those lists Istima could take with just Ego Whip or Empowered Crystal Shard. Actually, theres a lot of monster fights he basically auto-wins between those, Disintegrate, and Banishment. Zevox
TelinArtho 08-28-07, 01:32 PM	Actually - let me rescind myself. Looking it up, I have found that I am wrong (and thanks to MWB for being dilligent about the resolution post in the council...): We create a different 3FC for allies. They follow in every way the 3FC rule, but so that only those fights that they have been in count. In addition, their cycle is always restored at the same time as the main characters. This may sound difficult, but is actually very simple and follows the spirit of our 3FC rule.
lonewolf 08-28-07, 01:50 PM	Does anyone have some last minute suggestions about Therador Goldscale before I activate him this week?
Erithmu 08-28-07, 02:05 PM	Does anyone have some last minute suggestions about Therador Goldscale before I activate him this week? Drop the gloves of titan's grip for horseshoes of the zephyr for the smaller maps (cavern/sewer) I think your grapple check is as big as it needs to be and you will either win or encounter FoM ... I don't think the +8 is going to help you anymore.
TelinArtho 08-28-07, 02:30 PM	Drop the gloves of titan's grip for horseshoes of the zephyr for the smaller maps (cavern/sewer) I think your grapple check is as big as it needs to be and you will either win or encounter FoM ... I don't think the +8 is going to help you anymore. I don't know that the grapple check is either a win or a FoM situation. Sir Valkin at level 9 was looking at a +13 grapple check - which isn't that much of a difference. I will agree that the better movement option of the horseshoes would probably be a better choice though. @lonewolf - come join him to CEF - we can always use more heads over there...
lonewolf 08-28-07, 02:35 PM	I´d rather have horseshoes of speed than of the Zephyr. Zephyr only helps me in the sewer and costs the double. I think I will keep the gloves and buy the horseshoes of speed soon. Against melee fighters, my hp are just to low to allow them to go toe on toe with me and a really high grapple check helps with that. @Telin: Yeah I think I will. btw: I think I will restart Korwald on ECL5 as soon as I have the credits. He is just too weak on ECL3 and his horse slows his advancement painfully until he is able to use his skill package.
TelinArtho 08-28-07, 02:42 PM	About Korwald - I have the same problem with Berri - but I refuse to start her at a higher level... Let me know when and we can arrange a miniquest to rejoin or whatever.
TelinArtho 08-28-07, 03:16 PM	Just thinking out loud here... 4 attacks at +12 for 1d4+9 and one attack at +10 for 1d6+4 or 1 attack at +11 for 1d8+9, 3 attacks at +11 for 1d6+4 and one attack at +10 for 1d6+4 The initial one is 5% better to hit (in most cases anyway), and deals 10-13 damage (avg. 11.5) per hit - 46 dmg plus the extra attack (which is the same in both cases - so I'll ignore it. The second one deals 10-17 on the first attack (avg 13.5) and 5-10 on the next 3 (avg 7.5) for a total of 36. Maximum in the first case is 52; 47 in the second. Hmm - that's enlightening... (still working on Aquin's rebuild and needed to flesh things out...) EDIT - Still going: In the first case, I can't overcome silver/cold iron/adamantine bludgeoning DR. At DR 3/any of the above - the weapons end up being a better solution (well - with silver DR4 is probably needed)... Hmmm...
SoulLord 08-28-07, 04:51 PM	found this on another thread... Q: Can you use a wondrous martial item, such as shadow hands, to meet the prerequisite for a maneuver? A: No, because these maneuvers are temporary bonus maneuvers, and do not belong to your actual maneuvers known. This follows the general rule that magic items do not contribute to your abilities for the purpose of meeting prerequisites and entry requirements and granting you level-based abilities. For example, a headband of intellect grants you temporary bonus spells if your spellcasting is based on Intelligence, but it doesn't grant you additional skill points, or the ability to take the Combat Expertise feat if your Intelligence is normally 12 or lower.
MindWandererB 08-28-07, 05:14 PM	found this on another thread... What!? That's a direct contradiction of the FAQ.
TelinArtho 08-28-07, 05:17 PM	What!? That's a direct contradiction of the FAQ. You sound surprised...
lonewolf 08-28-07, 05:21 PM	I am suprised!! ...that MWB is suprised... :P
Eamane 08-28-07, 05:22 PM	For maneuvers, I can kind of understand wanting to limit how you can qualify for them. Learning and maintaining prerequisites for maneuvers, as you tend to switch out your lower level ones for higher level ones is very confusing already. That said, the logic they used (that magical bonuses from items are temporary) is.. problematic. Why are magical bonuses temporary? Because they might go away? Right. What else go away? Oh, everything huh. (Energy Drain can take your levels away, does that mean they shouldn't be used to qualify for things?!?) How... troublesome -_- You know... I'm kind of looking forward to 4th edition. If nothing else, it won't have these arcane rules problems for at least six months after it comes out.
MindWandererB 08-28-07, 05:23 PM	There aren't many explicit contradictions within Sage Advice. The only one I know of is a result of the changing of the guard from Skip to Andy. Skip contradicts himself a lot, but Andy, not so much.
MindWandererB 08-28-07, 05:52 PM	Actually - let me rescind myself. Looking it up, I have found that I am wrong (and thanks to MWB for being dilligent about the resolution post in the council...): Being diligent about the Council resolutions is good, but being diligent about updating the rules is better. Look a little harder, in the 3FC section, and you'll find this: Allies and the 3-Fight Cycle Allies use the same cycle as their PC, unless they are absent from one or more fights in that cycle. If an ally is absent from a fight, that fight does not count toward its cycle. For instance, if a PC leaves her cohort out of the first fight of her cycle, then brings him in for the second and third, the cohort can use 1/3 of his spells, PP, and X/day abilities in the second fight, and in the third, an additional 1/3 plus whatever abilities were unused from the second. The cohort would then be reset along with the PC for the next cycle, leaving the final 1/3 of its resources unused.
Salrantol 08-28-07, 07:50 PM	Kilor Mintolo would like to change her cohort's skills. He would like to exchange 7 ranks in Knowledge (nobility & royalty) [what was I thinking??] for 2 ranks each in Knowledge (nature), Knowledge (religion), & Knowledge (the planes), and 1 rank in Knowledge (dungeoneering).Approved. It costs you 5 credits.Question: This is despite the fact that the Knowledge has (obviously) never been used?
SauroGrenom 08-28-07, 08:32 PM	Question: This is despite the fact that the Knowledge has (obviously) never been used? OK. I get your point. I'll remove the cost in the changes thread. But I don't think that cohort knowledge skills can help you anyway. So the new knowledge skills are equally pointless.
NiQil 08-28-07, 09:58 PM	Just gonna throw it out there.... Could use some competition in the ECL 5 league tomorrow...have all three of my 5's active...easy pickings for some of you in that league...not so easy for others. Edit: As a side note....I always get a kick out of looking at Unholy Ninja's fight record....makes me laugh...
Vathelokai 08-28-07, 10:29 PM	Just gonna throw it out there.... Could use some competition in the ECL 5 league tomorrow...have all three of my 5's active...easy pickings for some of you in that league...not so easy for others. Edit: As a side note....I always get a kick out of looking at Unholy Ninja's fight record....makes me laugh... :D Might get the chance for some rematches. She just leveled to 5.
Zevox 08-28-07, 10:37 PM	Just gonna throw it out there.... Could use some competition in the ECL 5 league tomorrow...have all three of my 5's active...easy pickings for some of you in that league...not so easy for others. Edit: As a side note....I always get a kick out of looking at Unholy Ninja's fight record....makes me laugh... I would, but Kathren has crafting to do. Need to break in that new Craft Wand feat now that shes hit level 5. Oh, and MWB, don't suppose theres any chance of getting Kathren a 3 PR bump? That 1497 is just mocking me... (I'm kidding, I'm kidding. Well, half-kidding, anyway. ;) ) Zevox
Rauul 08-29-07, 12:05 AM	Just gonna throw it out there.... Could use some competition in the ECL 5 league tomorrow...have all three of my 5's active...easy pickings for some of you in that league...not so easy for others. Edit: As a side note....I always get a kick out of looking at Unholy Ninja's fight record....makes me laugh... Both my ECL 5's are active... Shadow doing a miniquest to join TAO (3rd try) and Graak going after a Denth for attacking a WAR Bar.. (museum but don't tell the orc)
NiQil 08-29-07, 12:12 AM	Both my ECL 5's are active... Shadow doing a miniquest to join TAO (3rd try) and Graak going after a Denth for attacking a WAR Bar.. (museum but don't tell the orc) ....which means neither of them are in the arena, where they can have the decency to die gracefully at my hand. Oh well. Elves will rule all....
MindWandererB 08-29-07, 12:19 AM	I would, but Kathren has crafting to do. Need to break in that new Craft Wand feat now that shes hit level 5. Oh, and MWB, don't suppose theres any chance of getting Kathren a 3 PR bump? That 1497 is just mocking me... (I'm kidding, I'm kidding. Well, half-kidding, anyway. ;) ) Zevox Seeing as how Kathren just bumped Maya down to 1499, I don't think so. :ahem:
NiQil 08-29-07, 12:22 AM	Seeing as how Kathren just bumped Maya down to 1499, I don't think so. :ahem: Not all by herself she didn't....though she did the hard part. Tiris got to play Ginsu with Maya's vital organs afterwards.... As an aside.....ever go golfing for distance with a spleen? LOL
Zevox 08-29-07, 01:30 AM	Seeing as how Kathren just bumped Maya down to 1499, I don't think so. :ahem: Ah right, that. The only thing I regret there is that it wasn't Mithos who did it :P . Zevox
templer10 08-29-07, 02:32 AM	i wouldnt mind some competition in the ECL 10 bracket assuming SOMEONE (cough zevox Cough) get those fights Done... getting kind of tired of those monsters
hogarth 08-29-07, 06:47 AM	....which means neither of them are in the arena, where they can have the decency to die gracefully at my hand. Oh well. Elves will rule all.... Balthazar Picsou (another elf, sort of) is fighting this week. He might be hiding behind a griffon, though...
Callix 08-29-07, 07:05 AM	It seems that Ralein's fight is likely to be held over this week. Will that cost me an activation next week? Prompt answers would be appreciated, so I can unready Rennae if needed.
templer10 08-29-07, 07:09 AM	It seems that Ralein's fight is likely to be held over this week. Will that cost me an activation next week? Prompt answers would be appreciated, so I can unready Rennae if needed. no and you also get a free full activity
Macbrea 08-29-07, 08:28 AM	Bah.. Relanex dissappeared off the roster. Have to get him back on it. :P
TelinArtho 08-29-07, 09:45 AM	Kilpquabjeg will pay 3 credits to acquire a ha-naga corpse (for skeletonizing purposes) without a miniquest. :cloud9: Can someone show me where this creature is in the SRD? Is it in the epic section (the one section I don't have right now...)?
Erithmu 08-29-07, 09:54 AM	Can someone show me where this creature is in the SRD? Is it in the epic section (the one section I don't have right now...)? Epic online SRD link (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/haNaga.htm)
Rauul 08-29-07, 09:54 AM	Can someone show me where this creature is in the SRD? Is it in the epic section (the one section I don't have right now...)? i was sort of wondering that myself....
hogarth 08-29-07, 09:55 AM	Can someone show me where this creature is in the SRD? Is it in the epic section (the one section I don't have right now...)? It is indeed in the Epic SRD. The stats (for the skeleton) are in Kilp's character sheet.
Rauul 08-29-07, 09:57 AM	....which means neither of them are in the arena, where they can have the decency to die gracefully at my hand. Oh well. Elves will rule all.... So whats the Rule... on Questing to Kill NiQil's Elves...
TelinArtho 08-29-07, 10:01 AM	It is indeed in the Epic SRD. The stats (for the skeleton) are in Kilp's character sheet. I saw the stats and that made me wonder... just figured I'd do a quick lookover. It just seems like so much of powerful...
Rauul 08-29-07, 10:04 AM	It is indeed in the Epic SRD. The stats (for the skeleton) are in Kilp's character sheet. Just off hand... how do you expect to control a 20hd undead at level 1 cleric? The undead you create remain under your control indefinitely. No matter how many times you use this spell, however, you can control only 4 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level. If you exceed this number, all the newly created creatures fall under your control, and any excess undead from previous castings become uncontrolled. (You choose which creatures are released.) If you are a cleric, any undead you might command by virtue of your power to command or rebuke undead do not count toward the limit. I mean Corrupter Could control it.. 8x4=24, but wouldn't have any other undead..
TelinArtho 08-29-07, 10:12 AM	That's exactly what I was going to bring up Rauul. It does appear that Kilp can't control it. Also - it seems to me that she overpaid for the "Oil of Animate Dead (CL10)" 10 (CL) * 3 (SL) * 50gp = 1500gp + material component (25gp *20 HD = 500gp) = 2000gp.
TelinArtho 08-29-07, 10:31 AM	As a questlord/campaignlord... I really shouldn't be given access to things that have x3 crit ranges... Nearly killed Nimbus with two threatened criticals...
hogarth 08-29-07, 11:27 AM	That's exactly what I was going to bring up Rauul. It does appear that Kilp can't control it. A CL 10 Animate Dead spell can't control a 20 HD creature? Why not? Thanks for pointing out that I overpaid, though.
TelinArtho 08-29-07, 11:30 AM	The CL10 spell can create it - but Animate Dead also states that a cleric can have a maximum of 4x CL under control at once. So Kilp (Cleric 1) can have a maximum of 4HD under his control from the Animate Dead spell. The undead you create remain under your control indefinitely. No matter how many times you use this spell, however, you can control only 4 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level. If you exceed this number, all the newly created creatures fall under your control, and any excess undead from previous castings become uncontrolled. (You choose which creatures are released.) If you are a cleric, any undead you might command by virtue of your power to command or rebuke undead do not count toward the limit.
hogarth 08-29-07, 11:33 AM	I repeat: her caster level for Animate Dead is 10. I don't see the problem.
TelinArtho 08-29-07, 11:53 AM	The CL of the spell is 10 - I don't disagree. However, the controller - Kilp - is only CL1 - so while she can cast the spell with the oil, she can't control the skeleton after it is created, because it is beyond her means (maximum for Kilp is 4HD).
TelinArtho 08-29-07, 11:54 AM	@GNN - I have sent a brief article about the Denth attacks. Let me know if you want any revisions to it.
waywreth 08-29-07, 12:13 PM	The CL of the spell is 10 - I don't disagree. However, the controller - Kilp - is only CL1 - so while she can cast the spell with the oil, she can't control the skeleton after it is created, because it is beyond her means (maximum for Kilp is 4HD). I agree with Telin - Kilp can create the skeleton, but cannot control it. And while it may not be the goal, the concept of a 20HD undead running rampant during a fight is fairly amusing to me.
hogarth 08-29-07, 12:21 PM	The CL of the spell is 10 - I don't disagree. However, the controller - Kilp - is only CL1 - so while she can cast the spell with the oil, she can't control the skeleton after it is created, because it is beyond her means (maximum for Kilp is 4HD). Call me naive. Call me old-fashioned. Call me a wide-eyed dreamer. But when I see the phrase "caster level" used in a spell description, I assume that it means the same thing everywhere. But now you're telling me that in two consecutive sentences it means two different things! Now I'm worried that Kilp will fire off two missiles from her CL 3 wand of Magic Missile and one will revolt before it reaches the destination. ;) Look, if it said "cleric level" or "levels in casting classes" or if "global caster level" were defined somewhere, I'd agree. And if you said "I just don't think non-casters should be able to use Animate Dead, even from a potion", I'd totally respect that opinion. But to say "Sometimes caster level means caster level, and other times it means caster level!"... :uh-huh:
lonewolf 08-29-07, 12:25 PM	I think has a point and his opinion is RAW as far as I can tell. If thats something we dont want in CoCo and thus houserule it, thats an entirely different question.
Rauul 08-29-07, 12:28 PM	Call me naive. Call me old-fashioned. Call me a wide-eyed dreamer. But when I see the phrase "caster level" used in a spell description, I assume that it means the same thing everywhere. But now you're telling me that in two consecutive sentences it means two different things! Now I'm worried that Kilp will fire off two missiles from her CL 3 wand of Magic Missile and one will revolt before it reaches the destination. ;) Look, if it said "cleric level" or "levels in casting classes" or if "global caster level" were defined somewhere, I'd agree. And if you said "I just don't think non-casters should be able to use Animate Dead, even from a potion", I'd totally respect that opinion. But to say "Sometimes caster level means caster level, and other times it means caster level!"... :uh-huh: Problem is the Cleric that made the oil can control it.. (he is the caster in all reality) kipt got the corpse, applied the oil, and it animated.. but kipt don't have the power of the Diety to control it... How did you get a CL 10 oil anyways when your cl 1, Blackmarket allows a Backdoor to get potions ect at +2 CL (max of cl 3 for your clerical) Unless i read it wrong and it's based off ECL +2 and then it's just wrong IMHO..
Rauul 08-29-07, 12:34 PM	but looking at Epic monsters.... may have to have Corrupter get a Hoary Steed to make into a skeleton.. hmmmm
TelinArtho 08-29-07, 12:35 PM	Let me understand you hogarth. a CL1 cleric casts a CL5 scroll of Animate dead and gains 10hd worth of undead under his control. He does this once more to "max him out" at 20HD. Later on, still at CL1, he grabs hold of a CL10 scroll of Animate dead and gains 20HD more worth of undead. 20HD from the CL5 stuff, 20HD from the CL10 stuff. However, since they are separate, he can cast another CL10 scroll and get another 20HD? Caster level in the spell is referring to the character's caster level. A CL1 cleric can only control 4HD of undead animated through the Animate Dead spell - no matter who created the scroll/potion.
Eamane 08-29-07, 12:45 PM	Let me understand you hogarth. a CL1 cleric casts a CL5 scroll of Animate dead and gains 10hd worth of undead under his control. He does this once more to "max him out" at 20HD. Later on, still at CL1, he grabs hold of a CL10 scroll of Animate dead and gains 20HD more worth of undead. 20HD from the CL5 stuff, 20HD from the CL10 stuff. However, since they are separate, he can cast another CL10 scroll and get another 20HD? Caster level in the spell is referring to the character's caster level. A CL1 cleric can only control 4HD of undead animated through the Animate Dead spell - no matter who created the scroll/potion. And if a Rogue used Use Magic Device to cast the spell, he wouldn't be able to control anything, eh? Since he has - caster levels, mm?
hogarth 08-29-07, 12:45 PM	Let me understand you hogarth. a CL1 cleric casts a CL5 scroll of Animate dead and gains 10hd worth of undead under his control. He does this once more to "max him out" at 20HD. Huh? Why would it stack like that? 1st scroll: CL 5 --> can control 10 HD according to spell description 2nd scroll: CL 5 --> can control 10 HD according to spell description It's the same spell effect in two strengths, so it overlaps and the stronger one prevails. So he can control 10 HD worth of undead. Caster level in the spell is referring to the character's caster level. So a level 1 character using a CL 3 scroll of Magic Missile can only create one missile? Problem is the Cleric that made the oil can control it.. (he is the caster in all reality) kipt got the corpse, applied the oil, and it animated.. but kipt don't have the power of the Diety to control it... For oils, the applier of the oil is the "effective caster", not the creator of the oil. Again, if you don't like the current rule, bring it up in the Courtroom and we can house rule it. But saying that "caster level" can mean one of two different things in a spell description (with no way of telling between one meaning and the other) is not supported by the rules, as far as I know.
waywreth 08-29-07, 01:03 PM	How did you get a CL 10 oil anyways when your cl 1, Blackmarket allows a Backdoor to get potions ect at +2 CL (max of cl 3 for your clerical) Unless i read it wrong and it's based off ECL +2 and then it's just wrong IMHO.. Rauul makes a good point here. I also couldn't find the post in the Blackmarket for approval for the oil (was curious who approved it).
hogarth 08-29-07, 01:05 PM	Rauul makes a good point here. I also couldn't find the post in the Blackmarket for approval for the oil (was curious who approved it). According to the rules, potions are limited by ECL, not CL. Otherwise a non-caster couldn't buy a potion of Fly or a tattoo of Touchsight without credits (for instance).
TelinArtho 08-29-07, 01:12 PM	@Guildlords - sent a PM back about the monsters this week. I think you have an error.
waywreth 08-29-07, 01:23 PM	According to the rules, potions are limited by ECL, not CL. Otherwise a non-caster couldn't buy a potion of Fly or a tattoo of Touchsight without credits (for instance). Then it's still a CL20 caster item, meaning you have purchase it thought the black market, no?
hogarth 08-29-07, 01:25 PM	Then it's still a CL20 caster item, meaning you have purchase it thought the black market, no? You only need CL 10 to create a 20 HD skeleton.
waywreth 08-29-07, 01:29 PM	Well legal or not, I give you credit for finding a rules loophole, and I hope the elders close it. The concept of a level 1 cleric controlling a 20HD is foolish, and the fact you can pay 3 credits for a monster you had no chance of killing is also an additional loophole (although even somethink like a cloud giant skeleton would be fairly powerful at your level).
hogarth 08-29-07, 01:39 PM	Well legal or not, I give you credit for finding a rules loophole, and I hope the elders close it. The irony is that a regular ally like a Leadership cohort would probably be more useful about 99% of the time. I just thought that flying around on a colossal flying snake skeleton would have more style. ;) And you want to see ridiculous? I'm just waiting for the first person to use Simulacrum to create an Efreeti sidekick. Wish 3/day is worth every penny...
mucki 08-29-07, 02:44 PM	I agree with the crowd that sees the "controlling" part in the spell description seperate from the "creating" part. Consider the following scenario: you use a CL10 item to animate a 1HD skeleton, ... according to the spell description and your interpretation you can now control 4x CL = 40HD of undead (you used up one so far). According to your interpretation that would mean that you can now use 39 CL1 items to animate 39 1HD skeletons, still using up the 40HD from that first item you used ... that doesn't sound like intended by the rules ... and what happens if you lose the very first skeleton ? the very first spell effect is gone, does that mean you loose another 38 skellies ? So yes, a CL10 item can "create" a very strong undead ... but the item is not controlling it, you are, and therefore the control is likely based on your CL, not the items. The only loophole i see is the following description in the spell: If you exceed the this number (4xCL HD), all newly created creatures fall under your control, and any excess undead from previous castings become become uncontrolled. This doesn't mention the case that the single new creature is > than 4x your CL, so technically you could probably keep it, even though its in violation of the spells limits ... (because if you do not take high CL items into account then the spell cannot run into this scenario). As for the example of MM: the missiles created are all within the spells effect, so the spell is responsible for them (and thus the CL of the creator of the item), but with animate dead i think that the spell only creates undead that are basically able and willing to listen to you, the spell doesn't control them for you. PS: Nevertheless I think that creating a high HD undead that is uncontrolled might be a nice tactic if you can protect yourself form it.
hogarth 08-29-07, 03:06 PM	As for the example of MM: the missiles created are all within the spells effect, so the spell is responsible for them (and thus the CL of the creator of the item), but with animate dead i think that the spell only creates undead that are basically able and willing to listen to you, the spell doesn't control them for you. That's a lot of extrapolation; it doesn't say anything about that in the spell description. PS: Nevertheless I think that creating a high HD undead that is uncontrolled might be a nice tactic if you can protect yourself form it. Well, it's easy enough to control an uncontrolled skeleton. A CL 3 scroll of Command Undead will last 3 days (or until the next Dispel Magic, whichever comes sooner).
TelinArtho 08-29-07, 03:15 PM	The irony is that a regular ally like a Leadership cohort would probably be more useful about 99% of the time. I just thought that flying around on a colossal flying snake skeleton would have more style. ;) And you want to see ridiculous? I'm just waiting for the first person to use Simulacrum to create an Efreeti sidekick. Wish 3/day is worth every penny... Well - it certainly has no use on the cavern, temple, and sewer maps (would be squeezed or worse to start with); would be of limited use in the forest and city maps (lots of places to squeeze through and the city's maximum height makes flight limited). The only maps where it is of real use are the plains and arena. And in those two cases, it breaks your opponent severely. (Hide from Undead would easily counter it though...) Anyway - my argument is not whether an ally like that should be allowed. But rather whether it is possible with what your character has. A CL10 Cleric at ECL12 would certainly be able to bring in and control it. No question there. A CL1 cleric though should get crushed by it though...
SoulLord 08-29-07, 03:39 PM	I really fail to see the problem here A lvl 1 character still has to use the rules for allies so a CR 8 (20hd) creature would only be possible for a gladiator lvl 8+4= 12 he can have it he just can't bring it anywhere.
lonewolf 08-29-07, 03:40 PM	The character in question is a cleric1/Psion11 if I got it right...
mucki 08-29-07, 03:58 PM	That's a lot of extrapolation; it doesn't say anything about that in the spell description. Hmm, reading through the FAQ i realized that the spell has a duration of "instantaneous". So this means that there will definitely be nothing left later from the original spell to decide CL or anything. So at least my example is shot (If you cast it with a high CL that high CL has no effect whatsoever on any later castings). So I guess the question is: does the spell grant you the control ? Then you could (ab)use a high CL item, but if you ever cast it with a lower CL later then you would loose control if the previous creature, even though it was perfectly fine up to that point. Or is the control not part of the spell? Then you cannot (ab)use the item, but run in the other problem of what happens with level loss, or, as has been pointed out, with a rogue and UMD.
SoulLord 08-29-07, 05:25 PM	The character in question is a cleric1/Psion11 if I got it right... In that case sure he is allowed to take it to the arena. If he loses control of it thought it will be hard for him to regain it. Control undead. Turn undead. rebuke undead. Command undead. to name a few.
TelinArtho 08-29-07, 05:27 PM	As said before Soullord - this is not about whether he can take it into the arena - it is a question of if he has control over it at all.
SoulLord 08-29-07, 06:08 PM	Lets put it this way if a rogue gets a scroll of dominate person who dominates the target the rogue or the crafter of the scroll? I think the CL is provided in the creation of the magic item.
Sjiggie 08-29-07, 06:22 PM	From the prison: Shugho-zact (Eamane) has energy Substitution listed as a feat. This feat is not 'core.' Energy substitution can be found in the Divine SRD so it is availabe in the CoCo. Note that is list Sonic as a viable substitution what the 3.5 version in the Complete Arcane doesn't but we don't use that version. Sjiggie
hogarth 08-29-07, 06:41 PM	Lets put it this way if a rogue gets a scroll of dominate person who dominates the target the rogue or the crafter of the scroll? I think the CL is provided in the creation of the magic item. Well, at least there's one person who agrees with me!
TheMagister 08-29-07, 08:33 PM	@Telin, Sauro, and 'Rith: Mellios can't both stand and attack while disabled. You get one move action or one standard action, and you take 1 damage after that action is completed. So either: Mellios stands (and then faints and bleeds), or Mellios swings from prone (and then faints and bleeds). The -4 from swinging while prone might mean that Kracknol isn't critically hit, and might help the duo vs. the flying speed-archer. TM
WizO_Shadow 08-29-07, 09:42 PM	:random check-in: :pokes her head in from the plane of shadow and nods that everything's in alignment: Renee Shadow
NiQil 08-29-07, 09:58 PM	:random check-in: :pokes her head in from the plane of shadow and nods that everything's in alignment: Renee Shadow Hey...everybody get your warhammers and come play whack-a-WizO! ::takes a swing at the head popping through::
TheMagister 08-29-07, 10:33 PM	Suck-arse. ;) But we love ya anyway. ... Well, we like you. ... ... You're tolerated.
Book5 08-29-07, 11:19 PM	Suck-arse. ;) But we love ya anyway. ... Well, we like you. ... ... You're tolerated. Hey! We're not talkin about Sinister or Chaos here.. WizO Shadow is actually a very nice lady ... from what I've seen...
MindWandererB 08-30-07, 03:04 AM	:random check-in: :pokes her head in from the plane of shadow and nods that everything's in alignment: Renee Shadow Hi, Renee! Good to see you, if only for a moment.
mucki 08-30-07, 04:58 AM	Hmm, could we sticky the thread with the pitlord profiles ? I just accidentally found it right now, when i looked through the pitlord roster and got distracted by the image with arrow to the right ... Up to now I was always wondering what was meant when the rules said: "check if your pitlord wants a PM or email, ..."
TelinArtho 08-30-07, 08:25 AM	@Telin, Sauro, and 'Rith: Mellios can't both stand and attack while disabled. You get one move action or one standard action, and you take 1 damage after that action is completed. So either: Mellios stands (and then faints and bleeds), or Mellios swings from prone (and then faints and bleeds). The -4 from swinging while prone might mean that Kracknol isn't critically hit, and might help the duo vs. the flying speed-archer. TM First off - if you are disabled, you can take a move action and not face losing a hp. However, that doesn't matter because of the sequence of events: [Round 6] Ignatius tries to start a grapple with Mellios but cannot get a hold of him. Kracknol full attacks with haste and hits once critically for 28 damage. Agatha full attacks with rapid shot at Kracknol and amazingly misses four times... Mellios staggered, uses Aid to keep himself standing. [Round 7] Ignatius sends his clawed foot under Mellios's legs and send him to the ground. He quickly follows with one of his hardened fists, but just misses the archon. Kracknol wastes no time however and swings his flail down on the prone archon, but only manages to hit once and not enough to knock the archon out completely. Agatha rapid shoots at Kracknol again and hits twice for 18 and 16 damage - burning him. Mellios stands, drawing AoO from both opponents, but they both miss. Mellios attacks Kracknol and hits (failing to confirm) for 22. Mellios falls over - unable to stand any more. In round 6, Mellios is hit hard enough to bring him to 0hp. On his action, he uses his Aid SLA. Then in round 7, Iggy trips him. So as you can see- Mellios has all of the temporary HP from Aid to keep him standing. As has been mentioned in the thread - Agatha is an erinyes and has Precise Shot.
whitebaron 08-30-07, 09:08 AM	i've got a question concerning the xills in templer10's fight. can they start out ethereal? or do they need to wait their first 2 rounds to do so? since they can do this at will, it seems strange if they are not allowed to do it. on the otherhand, this is an arena, maybe its required to be visible at start. an elder opinion would be greatly appreciated.
lonewolf 08-30-07, 09:15 AM	They´re not allowed to start ethereal. As a long time ghost player I know that much...
templer10 08-30-07, 10:52 AM	i've got a question concerning the xills in templer10's fight. can they start out ethereal? or do they need to wait their first 2 rounds to do so? since they can do this at will, it seems strange if they are not allowed to do it. on the otherhand, this is an arena, maybe its required to be visible at start. an elder opinion would be greatly appreciated. Also note that going etherel is subject to the 10 rounds Not being in the arena CULMATIVE limit - i.e. 10 rounds etheral in the whole fight and they (or that spesifix xill) lose.
whitebaron 08-30-07, 12:06 PM	sounds like you're afraid to lose against something that can barely hit you or your allies ;) you'll see, this will be fair and clean.
Eamane 08-30-07, 12:10 PM	sounds like you're afraid to lose against something that can barely hit you or your allies ;) you'll see, this will be fair and clean. Well, we had a discussion about this last week and I was of the opinion that the Xill had a very good shot at winning. Losing to monsters is something no one enjoys, so he's trying to hedge his bets ;) The fact that a xill can drag others along with it is the key here, imho. One xill can go insub while the others two fire at him and then take them with him. Then if they want to grapple, one xill pops them all back in mid-air and two of them get to make full attacks. <3 4-armed falling grappling balls of death. As a note, for a long time I've been wanting to play a Xill, so I have some idea of what tactics are efficient for them. ^_^ Good thing I'm not running it, eh? :P
whitebaron 08-30-07, 12:23 PM	for the going back-thing: yes. that's possible. but i suppose you don't get extra rounds for shooting with a tactic like that. the passengers are surely not allowed to do anything else while starting to planeswalk. this is most likely a side-effect of planeswalking with a xill, and not his casting time, else it would be written differently. so, x1: full attack x2: full attack x3: planeswalk. all immobile for 2 rounds.
Taureus_Drakken 08-30-07, 12:51 PM	@lonewolf, whitebaron: I have tactics for Darian and Wooly, but the prison posts need to be resolved before I can start the fight. ¬Taureus¬
Eamane 08-30-07, 12:53 PM	for the going back-thing: yes. that's possible. but i suppose you don't get extra rounds for shooting with a tactic like that. the passengers are surely not allowed to do anything else while starting to planeswalk. this is most likely a side-effect of planeswalking with a xill, and not his casting time, else it would be written differently. so, x1: full attack x2: full attack x3: planeswalk. all immobile for 2 rounds. Er... Why 'surely not'? Honestly, I don't see anything in the description of the Xill's ability to imply that the passengers are immobilized while it's using the supernatural ability. <shrugs> It's a fair interpretation and not terribly relevant to me, but I don't see it.
lonewolf 08-30-07, 01:19 PM	@lonewolf, whitebaron: I have tactics for Darian and Wooly, but the prison posts need to be resolved before I can start the fight. ¬Taureus¬ Actually not. Were not allowed to edit our characters before the fight and you just have to use the correct stats of our characters.=> most importantly Woolys speed 20ft. Darians total stats are correct though.
Taureus_Drakken 08-30-07, 01:29 PM	Okay, gotcha. This is my first week running fights, so I just wanted to make sure about it before I moved foward.
templer10 08-30-07, 01:35 PM	sounds like you're afraid to lose against something that can barely hit you or your allies ;) you'll see, this will be fair and clean. Actually it;s more to do with the fact that you are new (no offense btw) and a bit more likely to make mistakes and Elrick isnt the easist char to run with a minimum of 2 allies (And usually more) per fight. Also - i Bitc* a lot ask anyone. :D
Nurlithion 08-30-07, 02:14 PM	Hi everyone, I've decided to try my hand at the COre COliseum. But first, I've got some questions about the rules. 1- Do things like +1 flaming longswords or +3 mithral chain shirts count as custom items? My gut says no, because otherwise we'd be restricted to the couple weapons already defined, and the custom item thing seems to apply only to effects that don't already exist, but I decided to ask the experts. 2- I read that we have to spend credits to buy custom items, but what about crafting them? Also, please mention any implication that the answer to the above question has on this one. 3- As outsiders, aasimars and tieflings have proficiency in simple and martial weapons, but some DMs only consider this valid if they have actual outsider hit dice. What is the ruling that applies in the case of this board? 4- The rules in the DMG for crafting magic items(found here (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/magicItemsCreation.html) state that requiring a specific alignment or class cuts the price of an item by 30%. I usually use this with my DM by making my items usable by wizards only, but he only lets me do it if I am the one crafting the item instead of buying it, which retains its normal price even with the restriction. How does this apply here? Could I spend only 700 gp when creating my wizard-only +1 longsword? 5- Should I put the hit points I gain from a scroll of Bear's Endurance in the Conditional Modifier part in the hit point table in the character sheet? I'm sorry if I sound a bit demanding, but I don't want to mess up on my first day. :) -Nurlithion
TelinArtho 08-30-07, 02:25 PM	First off - welcome to the CoCo. 1. Nope. If you want to take a Specific Weapon/Armor/Shield trait (such as the charge ability of Rhino Hide), that would cost credits, but anything in the standard list is fair game with no credits. 2. Crafting anything in the lists is allowed so long as you meet the prerequisites. If it is a custom item - you still need to pay the credits - you just get to pay less for crafting it. 3. Aasimirs and Tieflings do have Simple and Martial weapon proficiency. 4. Although in the rules, that price cut is pretty imbalancing in our environment so we do not allow that. Q: When crafting a custom item, is it allowed to make an item alignment-dependent in order to reduce the overall cost? A: No. The RAW does allow for this possibility, however in this forum this option is not available due to potential balance issues. 5. You can if you like, but unless you plan on using it in every fight (no matter what), I probably wouldn't bother. Feel free to ask more questions as they come up. And Welcome again.
Nurlithion 08-30-07, 03:28 PM	Hey, I've got another question. I can have my familiar doing the Aid Another action, right? For example, imagine, that I have an 18 Int(+4 bonus), 2 ranks in craft(weaponsmithing), masterwork artisan's tools(+2 bonus), and my familiar does the Aid another action. he shares my ranks, so he has 2 ranks, with 6 int(-2), he can take 10 and succeed automatically. I take 10 as well to craft a masterwork weapon. I get exactly 20, right?
Eamane 08-30-07, 03:30 PM	Hey, I've got another question. I can have my familiar doing the Aid Another action, right? For example, imagine, that I have an 18 Int(+4 bonus), 2 ranks in craft(weaponsmithing), masterwork artisan's tools(+2 bonus), and my familiar does the Aid another action. he shares my ranks, so he has 2 ranks, with 6 int(-2), he can take 10 and succeed automatically. I take 10 as well to craft a masterwork weapon. I get exactly 20, right? Yes, familiars can use Aid Another; but usually not to much effect. (One of the better uses: Concentration checks for fighting defensively) Allies cannot assist in any way shape or form with any kind of crafting.
Nurlithion 08-30-07, 03:32 PM	Yes, familiars can use Aid Another; but usually not to much effect. (One of the better uses: Concentration checks for fighting defensively) Allies cannot assist in any way shape or form with any kind of crafting. Sorry, I don't think I got it. Do you mean that familiars can aid my crafting checks, but other allies can't, or that familiars can only aid with non-crafts?
TelinArtho 08-30-07, 03:36 PM	No - what he's saying that familiars can use aid another, however, for the specific case of allies helping outside of the arena - that is not allowed. Allies cannot help (or perform on their own) with crafting in any way (if you have CWI, they cannot supply the spells for the prerequisites either). First of all, allies may not craft any items; neither mundane nor magical ones. Essentially, they can use no skills outside of combat. (Exception: allies with animal companions can use their Handle Animal skill to teach tricks to that companion.) Cohorts with levels in a spellcasting class can aid the character by casting spells on him. Basically, these buff spells have the same limitation that every prebuff has (minimum 16 hours) so the Cohort can cast mage armor or nondetection on the gladiator if it is a viable prebuff. The cohort can of course also cast spells on himself. However, there are some limitations to what a cohort may cast. Obviously, the spell cannot have a range of personal unless the Cohort casts it on himself. If the spell has a material component, the gladiator must provide it. Since the Cohort has no XP he cannot cast any spells with an XP component at all. The cast spells must be marked off (either by silvering it out or using strikethrough) on the spell-list. Like with player characters, these prebuffs follow the same rules for prebuffs. As long as the cohort casts a single spell on the gladiator (or assists him in any other way) the cohort is considered to be participating in the fight, even if the gladiator leaves the cohort at home. The cohort took an active part in increasing the chances for a win so the ally rule applies normally.
Eamane 08-30-07, 03:40 PM	Sorry, I don't think I got it. Do you mean that familiars can aid my crafting checks, but other allies can't, or that familiars can only aid with non-crafts? All allies cannot aid you in crafting. (A Familiar is a class ally, as it is gained through a class ability. This means you don't lose XP during battles for having it along with you, but it otherwise treated as an ally) Your familiar can't help you forge a sword. Your cohort from Leadership cant use his Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat to make you a sword. An NPC spell-caster can't cast that spell you don't know to help you make a Wonderous Item with your Craft Wonderous Item feat. And other various specific examples; which come down to.. Allies can't help you make things. EDIT: See Telin's post above for the specific passage of the COCO rules.
Nurlithion 08-30-07, 03:42 PM	Oh well, that's one half of a very decent plan not working. But thank you very much for the help!
Eluria 08-30-07, 04:29 PM	Question: Would the sneak attack granted by the Simple Fighter Variant stack with normal rogue sneak attack? I know normally variant abilities don't stack (like ranger variant speed with barbarian), but I thought that was because of their name; sneak attack from various sources usually does stack. eg, Rogue1/Wizard5/Simple Fighter1 qualifying for arcane trickster, or Rogue1/Simple Fighter1/whatever3/Assassin1 being a nice way to load sneak attack.
TelinArtho 08-30-07, 04:31 PM	Question: Would the sneak attack granted by the Simple Fighter Variant stack with normal rogue sneak attack? I know normally variant abilities don't stack (like ranger variant speed with barbarian), but I thought that was because of their name; sneak attack from various sources usually does stack. Prohibited Class: If a player picks one of the 'Other Class Variants' below, he may not take or possess levels in the class that provided the feature. For example, a fighter could not multiclass into a variant rogue to gain additional bonus feats. This is to prevent 'frontloaded' builds. So you can't combine Fighter Variant with Rogue classes.
TelinArtho 08-30-07, 04:59 PM	Working on yet another construction... an air mephit. What maps does fast healing automatically apply? The arena map is of no question - the morphing nature of the environment certainly allows a light breeze (and this was apparent for LLMadCow's Nesse Tempe in his brief stint in the arena - but that was before the multiple maps were implemented). All maps that are counted as "Outdoors"? (Plains, City, Forest) What about the indoor maps? It isn't unreasonable to think of moving air in a temple or in a cavern - though much less so in the sewer. I'm just looking to iron this out now - since having access to the fast healing is an important choice for the mephit...
Eamane 08-30-07, 05:08 PM	Working on yet another construction... an air mephit. What maps does fast healing automatically apply? The arena map is of no question - the morphing nature of the environment certainly allows a light breeze (and this was apparent for LLMadCow's Nesse Tempe in his brief stint in the arena - but that was before the multiple maps were implemented). All maps that are counted as "Outdoors"? (Plains, City, Forest) What about the indoor maps? It isn't unreasonable to think of moving air in a temple or in a cavern - though much less so in the sewer. I'm just looking to iron this out now - since having access to the fast healing is an important choice for the mephit... Hmm. I'd say pretty everything but the indoors maps would 100% qualify for it's fast healing. As far as indoors goes.. I'd suggest getting a custom item of at-will prestidigitation! Generating a small breeze is within it's abilities. I would say that as they are all completely enclosed spaces (I've always assumed that the combatants are teleported into such maps, with spectators using permanent divination spells.) none of the indoor maps aside from the Arena would qualify. Though, you might make a case for the temple as the lava could cause significant air movement.
TelinArtho 08-30-07, 05:22 PM	Well - I suppose a custom item isn't a bad idea (though 3/day would certainly be enough - 2/day would probably be enough - since fully 4/7s of the maps would qualify...). Of course, I'd rather do it without the item... For the lava - I suspect I'd have to be too "close" for it to really help me. I'd rather be able to heal without hovering 5ft above the lava...
MindWandererB 08-30-07, 05:22 PM	Considering the air mephit can regenerate just by fanning itself with its wings or hand, it's only an issue when paralyzed or completely bound. But otherwise, yeah, I'd say it's simplest to assume that the arena and outdoor maps have breezes, and the other indoor maps don't.
TelinArtho 08-30-07, 05:25 PM	Considering the air mephit can regenerate just by fanning itself with its wings or hand, it's only an issue when paralyzed or completely bound. But otherwise, yeah, I'd say it's simplest to assume that the arena and outdoor maps have breezes, and the other indoor maps don't. Well - I guess that raises the question of whether the "fanning" is a free action to perform (or what kind of action if not) and whether it provokes an AoO.
Eamane 08-30-07, 05:28 PM	Well - I guess that raises the question of whether the "fanning" is a free action to perform (or what kind of action if not) and whether it provokes an AoO. I would consider fanning to be part of the ordinary movement within your square that is taken during a combat round. I.E: Non-action, as your doing it even when it's not your turn. Of course, if you're unable to move (helpless), it would be a problem, but if you cant move, losing your fast healing is just insult to add to the injury of likely being about to die.
TelinArtho 08-30-07, 05:36 PM	Okay - next one. Does the Mephit qualify as humanoid-like in terms of pricing armor? All mephits appear as small, winged creatures with more or less humanoid features. While they are often described as impish, their elemental origins are apparent at first glance. I suppose just the presence of the wings makes the answer no - but it doesn't hurt to check first...
Eamane 08-30-07, 05:45 PM	Hmm. Wings... I'll let MWB or an elder tackle that one. I can see it going either way. Now for a question of my own; Upgrading magical items. Wonderous Items can be improved when they are in a series (Gloves of Dex +2 to Gloves of Dex +4, Cloak of Resistance +1 to +2, etc); Does this apply to all Wonderous Item series or are some excluded? Like say, Bags of Holding, Bags of Tricks? Or more tricky ones; Necklace of Spheres, Deck of Illusions? Can you pay an NPC to 're-enchant' part of these expendable items; I.E: Remake the card that generates a dragon, or the 10d6 fireball sphere)? EDIT I'll put it here to avoid double-posting; My most fragile and odd character yet. The Indubtiable, incomprehensible and illiterate, Dajeus (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13610106&postcount=1215)! (Phrenic Wood Elf Ex-Barbarian with a Rusty Bag of Tricks)
Nurlithion 08-30-07, 06:00 PM	If Soveliss can have his right arm free of armor without losing AC, I'd say 2 little holes to allow the wing-bones to pass wouldn't change the armor from the Humanoid shape.
MindWandererB 08-30-07, 06:04 PM	Okay - next one. Does the Mephit qualify as humanoid-like in terms of pricing armor? I suppose just the presence of the wings makes the answer no - but it doesn't hurt to check first...I remember discussing this before, but I don't remember the outcome. And I don't have time to search the Court Decisions right now.Upgrading magical items. Wonderous Items can be improved when they are in a series (Gloves of Dex +2 to Gloves of Dex +4, Cloak of Resistance +1 to +2, etc); Does this apply to all Wonderous Item series or are some excluded? Like say, Bags of Holding, Bags of Tricks? Or more tricky ones; Necklace of Spheres, Deck of Illusions? Can you pay an NPC to 're-enchant' part of these expendable items; I.E: Remake the card that generates a dragon, or the 10d6 fireball sphere)?I would say that any items in a "series" can be upgraded, except for the ones that are in some way expendable (like the necklace of fireballs). Used components of such an item would be treated like "charges," i.e. cannot be restored. It's sort of like creating a whole bunch of 1-shot items all bound up together. I suppose an unused item of the expendable type might be upgradable.
hogarth 08-30-07, 06:31 PM	EDIT I'll put it here to avoid double-posting; My most fragile and odd character yet. The Indubtiable, incomprehensible and illiterate, Dajeus (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13610106&postcount=1215)! (Phrenic Wood Elf Ex-Barbarian with a Rusty Bag of Tricks) I did the same thing with my character Treetall Oakleg (spent all of his starting money on a Bag of Tricks). It turned out it wasn't as exciting as I thought it would be. YMMV. By the way, when I asked I was told you can't upgrade a Bag of Tricks.
Eamane 08-30-07, 06:41 PM	I did the same thing with my character Treetall Oakleg (spent all of his starting money on a Bag of Tricks). It turned out it wasn't as exciting as I thought it would be. YMMV. By the way, when I asked I was told you can't upgrade a Bag of Tricks. Not terribly exciting, but effective if I can upgrade it (which is now in doubt... dang you!). The real fun is when I'm done with the Monk levels and start in on Blackguard. Mm. Phrenic Monk/Blackguard. Mmm.
Nurlithion 08-30-07, 07:21 PM	Sorry for bothering, but I have more questions. Do Guard Dogs use the statistics for the Dog or the Riding Dog? It's just that the regular dog's stats are kind of... underwhelming. Also, are alchemical items included in Equipment Worn and Carried or in Expendable Items? I think it's the latter, but it says that anything not on the list doesn't belong there...
templer10 08-30-07, 07:36 PM	Not terribly exciting, but effective if I can upgrade it (which is now in doubt... dang you!). The real fun is when I'm done with the Monk levels and start in on Blackguard. Mm. Phrenic Monk/Blackguard. Mmm. That's going to take... err... a while - have you considered gettig some credits and doing a higher ECL start - Those 12 HP's are just sad
Eamane 08-30-07, 07:38 PM	That's going to take... err... a while - have you considered gettig some credits and doing a higher ECL start - Those 12 HP's are just sad It will take awhile. But I'll have more net gp doing it this way than starting off at ECL 4 or ECL 5. Plus, the low ECLs should have some push-overs, if not Maven-style ones, eh?
Sjiggie 08-30-07, 08:10 PM	Sorry for bothering, but I have more questions. Do Guard Dogs use the statistics for the Dog or the Riding Dog? It's just that the regular dog's stats are kind of... underwhelming. Also, are alchemical items included in Equipment Worn and Carried or in Expendable Items? I think it's the latter, but it says that anything not on the list doesn't belong there... Guard dogs use the stats for normal dogs I believe. Alchemical Items are included in the Equipment Worn and Carried. Expandable Items are only Potions, Scroll, Powerstones and Psionic Tattoo's. @Rauul: Used my Questlog for your MQ as well. It is odd to see that a fighter/barbarian/cleric as a listing Powerpoints used :p
Rauul 08-30-07, 08:18 PM	@Rauul: Used my Questlog for your MQ as well. It is odd to see that a fighter/barbarian/cleric as a listing Powerpoints used :p heheh couldn't find mine... will change that to spells used LOL
Eamane 08-30-07, 08:45 PM	Here's another odd question that directly effects one of my characters... For a character multiclassing into Wizard; do they suddenly receive a free spell book with X spells in it as part of their training, or do they have to buy it? I've been assuming the spellbook has to be bought, but having looked at the wizard entry, I'm not so sure.
Nurlithion 08-30-07, 09:42 PM	Hey, I finally finished my first character, and would like someone to look over it to see if everything is in place and correct, because I'm not used to writing so much down, since I know most things about my character by heart, and as such probably made a mistake or two. You can find the character sheet here. Thanks in advance! -Nurlithion P.S.: Also, you might find the character a bit strange, as he is not a common wizard. I'm heading for the Eldritch Knight PrC, using the Tiefling's proficiencies to qualify, and that's why his physical stats are so high. Also, I'm not yet fully stocked in items I want because I'm going to take crafting feat and as such I'll be crafting the items myself to save money. Still, if you have any suggestions, go ahead, please!
Eamane 08-30-07, 09:54 PM	Hey, I finally finished my first character, and would like someone to look over it to see if everything is in place and correct, because I'm not used to writing so much down, since I know most things about my character by heart, and as such probably made a mistake or two. You can find the character sheet here. Thanks in advance! -Nurlithion P.S.: Also, you might find the character a bit strange, as he is not a common wizard. I'm heading for the Eldritch Knight PrC, using the Tiefling's proficiencies to qualify, and that's why his physical stats are so high. Also, I'm not yet fully stocked in items I want because I'm going to take crafting feat and as such I'll be crafting the items myself to save money. Still, if you have any suggestions, go ahead, please! Heh, not that strange. That's a well-worn build around these parts, we've seen it a few times. I would suggest changing Improved Initiative feat to something else; the typical match doesn't start with line of sight to your opponent, making who goes first not quite as important as in standard D&D when you almost always have LOS. I would suggest memorizing the Detect Magic cantrip over Prestidigitation; Awhile ago the usefulness of Prestidigitation in combat was deeply investigated and officially ruled to be extremely low. (You can't distract someone, you cant have it hold things for you, you usually cant make an illusion of combat worth without convoluted situations) With Martial Weapon proficiency... why in the name of Mystra would you choose a Light Mace as a weapon? You have more than enough strength (14) to heft a real weapon like a Greatsword or Longsword if you want a one-hander. I highly suggest getting a different Silver weapon. The 1 in 10 chance of failing to cast a spell is going to bite you in the ass alot, I'd suggest relying on Mage Armor scrolls or a wand over a Mithril Chain Shirt. A wand of Mage Armor (CL 1) costs 750 gp and will last your entire career. It isn't upgradable like a Mithril Chain Shirt, but you can sink money into other protective devices to achieve a similar effect.
Nurlithion 08-30-07, 10:18 PM	Heh, not that strange. That's a well-worn build around these parts, we've seen it a few times. I would suggest changing Improved Initiative feat to something else; the typical match doesn't start with line of sight to your opponent, making who goes first not quite as important as in standard D&D when you almost always have LOS. I would suggest memorizing the Detect Magic cantrip over Prestidigitation; Awhile ago the usefulness of Prestidigitation in combat was deeply investigated and officially ruled to be extremely low. (You can't distract someone, you cant have it hold things for you, you usually cant make an illusion of combat worth without convoluted situations) With Martial Weapon proficiency... why in the name of Mystra would you choose a Light Mace as a weapon? You have more than enough strength (14) to heft a real weapon like a Greatsword or Longsword if you want a one-hander. I highly suggest getting a different Silver weapon. The 1 in 10 chance of failing to cast a spell is going to bite you in the ass alot, I'd suggest relying on Mage Armor scrolls or a wand over a Mithril Chain Shirt. A wand of Mage Armor (CL 1) costs 750 gp and will last your entire career. It isn't upgradable like a Mithril Chain Shirt, but you can sink money into other protective devices to achieve a similar effect. Yeah, maybe Improved Initiative should be changed. I'm thinking... Spell Focus in something, so that I can qualify for Archmage after I finish Eldritch Knight? As for prestidigitation, I was going to prepare only Ghost Sound, but I figured I wouldn't need many because, after all, I only have 1 Silent Image. And you never know when prestidigitation can help, I am known in my group for coming up with the strangest battle plans just so I can use the last spells I have. :) For weapons, my main weapons are the Glaive and the Composite Longbow: I wanted something with reach due to my LOW hit points if I get into melee. The mace is in case I run into some guy with weird damage reduction, and will later be enchanted with Ghost Touch. The glaive will be enchanted with mostly damage-enhancers like Flaming, because, with only core, there aren't many options to increase weapon damage magically. I will also craft a weapon of cold iron, in case someone gets to play a Fey, and am saving to craft an Adamantine Longsword/Scimitar/Battleaxe/some other one-handed weapon, which will become then another of my main weapons. As for the chain shirt, it's because I am going to take the crafting feats, and will enchant it with things that a Mage Armor can't be enchanted with. :) The ASF won't be so bad because I'll be casting most of my first spells from scrolls: I'm thinking my main tactic at this level will be throwing Rays of Enfeeblement from my scrolls at people, maybe riding in a Mount if they are too dangerous to get close, and shooting arrows and alchemical substances after I get them suitably debuffed, and maybe encumbered. I also have a Melf's Acid Arrow scroll saved for when I get in deep :censored:, becase it deals 2d4 damage and 2d4 again next round, and has a LONG long range. By the way, should I maybe buy a chest and an amazing lock to keep my stuff in when I'm not fighting to make burglary more difficult? I have a lot of spare money.
NiQil 08-30-07, 10:44 PM	Yeah, maybe Improved Initiative should be changed. I'm thinking... Spell Focus in something, so that I can qualify for Archmage after I finish Eldritch Knight? As for prestidigitation, I was going to prepare only Ghost Sound, but I figured I wouldn't need many because, after all, I only have 1 Silent Image. And you never know when prestidigitation can help, I am known in my group for coming up with the strangest battle plans just so I can use the last spells I have. :) For weapons, my main weapons are the Glaive and the Composite Longbow: I wanted something with reach due to my LOW hit points if I get into melee. The mace is in case I run into some guy with weird damage reduction, and will later be enchanted with Ghost Touch. The glaive will be enchanted with mostly damage-enhancers like Flaming, because, with only core, there aren't many options to increase weapon damage magically. I will also craft a weapon of cold iron, in case someone gets to play a Fey, and am saving to craft an Adamantine Longsword/Scimitar/Battleaxe/some other one-handed weapon, which will become then another of my main weapons. As for the chain shirt, it's because I am going to take the crafting feats, and will enchant it with things that a Mage Armor can't be enchanted with. :) The ASF won't be so bad because I'll be casting most of my first spells from scrolls: I'm thinking my main tactic at this level will be throwing Rays of Enfeeblement from my scrolls at people, maybe riding in a Mount if they are too dangerous to get close, and shooting arrows and alchemical substances after I get them suitably debuffed, and maybe encumbered. I also have a Melf's Acid Arrow scroll saved for when I get in deep :censored:, becase it deals 2d4 damage and 2d4 again next round, and has a LONG long range. By the way, should I maybe buy a chest and an amazing lock to keep my stuff in when I'm not fighting to make burglary more difficult? I have a lot of spare money. Keep in mind that casting from a scroll is just like casting from memory, which means ASF applies to scrolls as well. Your post seems to indicate that you may not be aware of this.
SauroGrenom 08-30-07, 10:48 PM	What happened to the guildhall post this week? It's kind of late. More than 24 hours I think. Is Zevox OK? Has anyone seen him around in the last few days?
Eamane 08-30-07, 11:01 PM	*snip* For weapons, my main weapons are the Glaive and the Composite Longbow: I wanted something with reach due to my LOW hit points if I get into melee. The mace is in case I run into some guy with weird damage reduction, and will later be enchanted with Ghost Touch. The glaive will be enchanted with mostly damage-enhancers like Flaming, because, with only core, there aren't many options to increase weapon damage magically. I will also craft a weapon of cold iron, in case someone gets to play a Fey, and am saving to craft an Adamantine Longsword/Scimitar/Battleaxe/some other one-handed weapon, which will become then another of my main weapons.*snip* Even if your mace is your back-up weapon... why make it a BAD backup weapon? If you want versatile damage types (bludgeoning), make a morningstar, which is still one-handed if that's important. If you want a good bludgeoning weapon a Flail or a Warhammer are both superior to a light mace. And they don't weigh that much more (1 lb). Your shortchanging yourself of an average point of damage for no reason, is my point. You can use martial weapons... so use martial weapons!
NiQil 08-30-07, 11:08 PM	What happened to the guildhall post this week? It's kind of late. More than 24 hours I think. Is Zevox OK? Has anyone seen him around in the last few days? I believe his work schedule has sorta swallowed him whole for the short term....and he already lost his light weapon to the rust monster...
MindWandererB 08-31-07, 12:13 AM	Yeah, he was late last week, too. Not like it's urgent, though. Light and Mending are useful cantrips, too. Mending is a fantastic anti-sunder tactic, and Light, although limited in use for someone with darkvision, still has applications. The light mace seems like a poor idea to me, too. I'd go with a morningstar, warhammer, or heavy flail, and then perhaps a spiked gauntlet or spiked armor as well (for grapples, etc.). Silent Image has also not proven to be terribly useful in the past--not that you couldn't do something creative with it. Since you're not actually a specialist (which you should consider--you can't possibly use all spells anyway, and it's almost impossible to prepare for specific encounters), you might want to reconsider, and even then, Color Spray is more useful for now. Also consider Alter Self. As an outsider, there's no more useful level 2 spell. Acid Arrow is not a useful spell by comparison at all. You need to clean up the familiar's sblock. Note that since Tumble is trained only, there's no point in listing it without ranks. Good concept, though--I'm a big fan of gish. Hope it works out for you.
Eamane 08-31-07, 12:41 AM	@MWB/Elders Any comment on acquiring a spell book by multiclassing into wizard? Yes/no? It affects my miniquest >.> @Nurlithon MWB's comments are mostly spot on. Color Spray def > Silent Image And yeah, Alter Self when you hit lvl 4 is highly recommended. Outsiders have the best forms. (And some pretty good ones once you pick up Polymorph too) I disagree with his assessment of Acid Arrow though, it's definitely a useful spell. Best taken with Extend though or in a wand so you can launch it round after round.
MindWandererB 08-31-07, 12:59 AM	My comment on Acid Arrow was based on his choice of it on a scroll. At 150 bucks a pop, Alter Self is much more worthwhile. When you can afford a wand, or can afford to spare the spell slot on damage spells rather than buff spells, Acid Arrow is a good one. I didn't answer about the spellbook because once again, I'm sure this has been answered before, and I don't remember. I think you get it automatically (it's a class feature, after all), but I'm not positive.
mucki 08-31-07, 04:11 AM	Hi Nurlithion, welcome to the Core Coliseum!
Nurlithion 08-31-07, 07:31 AM	Thanks for all the replies, everyone, I'm finding this board to be very friendly. As for Alter Spell, I know it's powerful, and it's one of my favorite spells(especially since I made a warforged gish once, who changed into animated objects), and it's gonna be my first spell choice once I get 2nd level spells. But if I got it now, I know I would only get to change into an Azer, due to my Knowledge(The Planes) ranks. If I take a point from another skill and put it here, Id be able to change into mephits, but they aren't that good. Or a Ravid, but since they don't speak and my BAB is not so good yet, the only nice thing I'd get from it would be +15 NA. While nice, it doesn't compensate not being able to cast spells, since my speed would be decreased to 20ft(Their flight is supernatural). Thus, I'll wait a bit until using it. Thanks for the suggestion of Mending, I'll put it right away! It's just that in my games, since I am always loot-hungry, I never used sunder, so I didn't even think of it. But I'll put it in right away. Being a specialist was actually one of my first thoughts, but I have favorite spells in all of the schools, so I refrained from it. The problem is not picking a school to specialize, since illusion or transmutation would be my first choices, but I can't decide on schools to drop. I usually drop evocation and enchantment with a gish, but in this case I wanted some AoE damage spells. Hmmm, I will consider a new weapon for my backup. It's just that I got WAY over my light encumberance and had to cut down on weight. As for the armor, yeah, I forgot to put spikes, I found a pretty nice trick involving armor and shield spikes enchanted with Defending. :) And yeah, I think I'll be specializing in Illusion and getting another Color Spray. Thanks everyone!
whitebaron 08-31-07, 08:07 AM	sorry t10, to bring your char up again, but i got a question concerning wild shape, since this will affect one of my characters later as well. Polymorph: Polymorph and all related spells/powers work differently in the coco. * Knowledge: You must have an (appropriate) total Knowledge score equal to twice the HD of the monster you want to polymorph in. This also applies to Alter Self, Polymorph any Object, Shapechange, and Metamorphosis. * Size Restriction: Polymorph forms must be within one size category just like Alter Self. elrick(small) has wild shape forms on his char sheet, that are large. is this just me misinterpreting the rules, or are you really not allowed to change into 2 size category bigger animals? if i am misinterpreting it again, i think the rules should be worded differently - else, i'll move this to the prison.
templer10 08-31-07, 08:20 AM	sorry t10, to bring your char up again, but i got a question concerning wild shape, since this will affect one of my characters later as well. elrick(small) has wild shape forms on his char sheet, that are large. is this just me misinterpreting the rules, or are you really not allowed to change into 2 size category bigger animals? if i am misinterpreting it again, i think the rules should be worded differently - else, i'll move this to the prison. You are misinterpriting the rules- since the rules About size are for polymorph only. (it even say so). From the rules of gladius - "Size Restriction: Polymorph forms must be within one size category just like Alter Self." (emphetis mine)
TelinArtho 08-31-07, 09:24 AM	I'll confirm that for templer10 - wildshape is not restricted like polymorph is for size. @Eamane - all wizards do have to purchase a spell book. It only costs 15gp anyway - but I don't know why MWB would think you wouldn't need to purchase one.
TelinArtho 08-31-07, 09:54 AM	Okay - next one. Does the Mephit qualify as humanoid-like in terms of pricing armor? I suppose just the presence of the wings makes the answer no - but it doesn't hurt to check first... I remember discussing this before, but I don't remember the outcome. And I don't have time to search the Court Decisions right now. Hmm - I've been searching my own records because I don't remember this conversation coming up. I haven't found a previous conversation about it yet - but I'll keep looking. Nevermind... found a brief conversation in Tavern III... Date : 09-20-05 06:40 PM Along the same vein....would a half-dragon with wings need to have special armor made to be able to wear it with the wings? If so, what would be the cost and/or craft DC? Date : 09-20-05 06:45 PM Twice as much and the same DC. Essentially it is barding or armor made for a non-humanoid. From Tavern VI: Date : 07-27-06 02:19 PM Depends. If the monstrous humanoid is medium size and similar in shape to a regular humanoid (as in biped, stands upright, has 2 arms, 2 legs, 1 head, etc), it costs the same as armor for a humanoid (ie 1100gp). For a large monstrous humanoid who is not similar in shape (ie Centaur) - the cost is based on the non-humanoid side of the table. For special materials that incorporate masterwork benefits, you should subtract this value before multiplying the cost. So while a mithril chain shirt would cost 1100gp for a medium human, one built for a large non-humanoid would be [100 (base) + (1000-150) (mithril minus [Ma] component)]*4 + 150 ([Ma] component) = 3950gp as opposed to 4400gp that you might suspect. Date : 07-27-06 02:26 PM So I guess that for a harpy it would cost 1100gp. It's basically a humanoid-shaped creature allthough it has wings. Or if it isn't humanoid enough, then I guess that it costs 1950gp. I think that 1100gp is still correct. Date : 07-27-06 02:31 PM The wings makes the difference (at least from my perspective) - so I would say it would cost 1950gp in that case. Personally I'm of the opinion that the "humanoid" price should only apply to creatures of the humanoid type - that way there's no judgement call. However, I've been told this is wrong before - so you never know... Date : 07-27-06 06:07 PM I'm inclined to say that being "humanoid" only requires being bipedal with two arms and a generally human like body shape. I would say that an Ettin is "humanoid" even though it is of the giant type and has two heads. Also a 4 armed Sahuagin mutant is humanoid even though it has 4 arms. The wings do not bother me. Nor would they make someone into a "non humanoid". For example if you apply the half celestial template to a human it is still humanoid. A harpy is in my opinion a "humanoid" for the purposes of humanoid or non humanoid armor (A gargoyle would also be humanoid). Also a succubus is humanoid although it has wings and is an outsider. A centaur is not humanoid because it has 4 leggs. I don't think there is going to be a good game mechanic we can fall back on in this case to easily decide what is a humanoid for the purpose of armor and what is not a humanoid. Take the Horned Devil and Ice Devil as examples. They both have two arms and two leggs, but the Ice Devil in particular looks distinctly not humanoid. It looks rather insect like. Also a Treant has two arms and two leggs but is distinctly not humanoid. A judgement call needs to be made in each case. This is why I would prefer to just flat out call anything that is Humanoid in type - counts as humanoid, while everything else is not. Yes it does mean that some outsiders get screwed (Tieflings and Aasimirs for instance), but at least it doesn't require any "special" consideration. For instance, a centaur counts as non-humanoid because of its 4 legs and horselike bottom. What if the armor wanted is merely a chain shirt? ...and elans. Don't forget elans! "Hey...I just went through some kind of mind ritual, and now none of my clothing fits any more!" Then the discussion disappears...
hogarth 08-31-07, 10:11 AM	@Eamane - all wizards do have to purchase a spell book. It only costs 15gp anyway - but I don't know why MWB would think you wouldn't need to purchase one. Because of this quote, I presume: "A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells (except those from her prohibited school or schools, if any; see School Specialization, below) plus three 1st-level spells of your choice." To me, "begins play with" implies that you get it for free.
TelinArtho 08-31-07, 11:14 AM	@Hogarth - I suppose that's evidence enough. Meh - I always paid for my spellbooks anyway. I guess I'll just take the Humanoid/Non-humanoid for armor to the council - looking it over, it does appear that there's little consensus to it right now and I'd rather resolve it once and for all...
Eamane 08-31-07, 01:12 PM	@Nurlithion Actually.. Mephits are the best forms available for Alter Self. (Maybe with the exception of exotic forms available out of core) You get a perfect fly speed, which means you are no immune to melee damage. See, unless your opponent also has access to Alter Self, at ECL 3-4, there simply arn't that many ways to fly. Alter Self is one of them. When you combine this with a high Natural Armor bonus (something Mephit forms also give you) and a Protection from Arrows spell... Well, it's nasty for ground-pounders you might happen to fight, and useful against other casters who rely on close-range spells like Color Spray/Energy Ray/Crystal Shard. @Telin Spellbook are not 'just' 15 gp. The spells I would get in that starting spell book (all level 0's, 7 or so level 1's) would cost me over two thousand gp to scribe into a blank spellbook if I have to start from scratch. A rather large difference ;)
whitebaron 08-31-07, 01:33 PM	You are misinterpriting the rules- since the rules About size are for polymorph only. (it even say so). From the rules of gladius - "Size Restriction: Polymorph forms must be within one size category just like Alter Self." (emphetis mine) then the rules should be written differently or state the spells more exactly. this whole paragraph is written unter the heading "polymorph and similar effects" - so it should be for all those effects, unless otherwise stated. oh and t10 - it doesn't explicitly state that for the spell polymorph... it says polymorph forms, which could be close to anything that has to do with shape changing... @eamane: the spells in your spellbook are actually your progress in your studies, while still at your master's home, or your university/arcane circle. it is supposed that you got all the material when you started studying. buying a spellbook should nonetheless be your personal cost. so 15gp, but the spells 1st level spells are always free. as for multiclassing wizards, there is a paradoxon that cannot be easily resolved. when you pick up a new level(and make it wizard 1), you are supposed to have gained many years of study in a few seconds... Commonly, it is assumed that you have learned all this before you began adventuring, and are just going back to actually using it.
TelinArtho 08-31-07, 01:41 PM	The rules could certainly stand to be clarified to exclude Wild Shape. For the record - Wild Shape no longer refers to Polymorph anymore (but rather Alternate Form) - so technically it doesn't fall under it anyway. Regardless of technicality though - wild shape is not restricted (except in its own ways (no large forms before 8th druid, etc)). The Living Tree has the current and updated text of Wild Shape in their guild thread. It is a very handy reference.
Eamane 08-31-07, 01:41 PM	@eamane: the spells in your spellbook are actually your progress in your studies, while still at your master's home, or your university/arcane circle. it is supposed that you got all the material when you started studying. buying a spellbook should nonetheless be your personal cost. so 15gp, but the spells 1st level spells are always free. as for multiclassing wizards, there is a paradoxon that cannot be easily resolved. when you pick up a new level(and make it wizard 1), you are supposed to have gained many years of study in a few seconds... Commonly, it is assumed that you have learned all this before you began adventuring, and are just going back to actually using it. How can the spells be free if I don't have a spellbook to put them in? It's pretty much all or nothing Whitebaron. If I don't get the spellbook, then I physically cannot get the spells as there is nothing to put them in. (Or to look at it another way, the gaining of the physical spellbook and the spells in it are part of the same feature of the class; you either get a feature or you don't, there is no going halfsies on it; Like getting the strength boosting part of the Rage class feature but not the AC lowering part). But I wasn't sure if I would get it as there are some benefits you only gain when you take the first level of your career in a class; I thought it might be one.
TelinArtho 08-31-07, 04:04 PM	Also, I'm not sure that summon monster is a legal contingency. The players over in the PSI campaign hassled me about it, and this is a similar situation. As our campaign lord, I've no problems with you using the spell in that way. I did want to make sure you knew about the shadinesses of using a summon spell as a contingency. @Sauro - most likely the cleric you are fighting has a few Thaumaturgist levels and has the Contingent Summoning class feature.
whitebaron 08-31-07, 04:30 PM	How can the spells be free if I don't have a spellbook to put them in? see it like this: you buy the spellbook _before_ studying anything, like school's equipment. but it's certainly not important whether you have bought the spellbook a long time ago, or you got it from your master, or you picked it up on the street. the important question is spells. i can't speak for elder decision here, but i'd give it to you for free.
SoulLord 08-31-07, 04:36 PM	@Sauro - most likely the cleric you are fighting has a few Thaumaturgist levels and has the Contingent Summoning class feature. ooooooooo very nice after the battle is over care to share how you worded the contingency? I'm planing to use it against some pc's of mine
TelinArtho 08-31-07, 04:39 PM	I didn't word it - that's 'Rith's campaign. Kraegin will be using it in another level - so I'm well aware of what to be done with it.
MindWandererB 08-31-07, 04:45 PM	then the rules should be written differently or state the spells more exactly. this whole paragraph is written unter the heading "polymorph and similar effects" - so it should be for all those effects, unless otherwise stated. oh and t10 - it doesn't explicitly state that for the spell polymorph... it says polymorph forms, which could be close to anything that has to do with shape changing...I didn't really think it was necessary, since Wild Shape is based on Alternate Form rather than Polymorph, but I've clarified the section.
SoulLord 08-31-07, 04:55 PM	I didn't word it - that's 'Rith's campaign. Kraegin will be using it in another level - so I'm well aware of what to be done with it. Right right, At first I thought it was an effect linked to unhallow but that also doesn't allow summon monster among it's effects. The Thaumaturgist makes perfect sense.
TheMagister 09-01-07, 01:29 PM	So, um. When do the guild actions for 8/29 post?
whitebaron 09-01-07, 02:17 PM	i've got some questions about crafting as free activitiy in coco. after Wooly's third fight, i'd like to replenish my stock on scrolls. if i use my free activity to scribe scrolls, how exactly is this working? i just mention it as free activity, and get to choose up to my expandable cap or 1000gp? do i have to give the exact number of scrolls and which spells to scribe before the fight? and: if the latter is right, if i know, i'd use a scroll for sure (aka 1st round), do i get to craft more than up to my expandables?
Erithmu 09-01-07, 02:24 PM	i've got some questions about crafting as free activitiy in coco. after Wooly's third fight, i'd like to replenish my stock on scrolls. if i use my free activity to scribe scrolls, how exactly is this working? i just mention it as free activity, and get to choose up to my expandable cap or 1000gp? do i have to give the exact number of scrolls and which spells to scribe before the fight? and: if the latter is right, if i know, i'd use a scroll for sure (aka 1st round), do i get to craft more than up to my expandables? - You have to list exactly what you want to scribe. - You can scribe up to 1k gp in scrolls, however if your expendable cap then goes over limit you have sell/not really scribe some scrolls to get under the cap. - You technically get the scrolls at the end of your 3fc, so the scrolls you scribe in fight 1 and 2 are not counted toward the expendable cap, nor can they be used in the current cycle (ie: you can't use a scroll that you scribed in fight 1 during fight 3 of the same cycle). But at the end of fight 3 when you ready your character for his/her next cycle you have to be under cap. I hope that answers most of your questions.
whitebaron 09-01-07, 02:35 PM	- You have to list exactly what you want to scribe. - You can scribe up to 1k gp in scrolls, however if your expendable cap then goes over limit you have sell/not really scribe some scrolls to get under the cap. - You technically get the scrolls at the end of your 3fc, so the scrolls you scribe in fight 1 and 2 are not counted toward the expendable cap, nor can they be used in the current cycle (ie: you can't use a scroll that you scribed in fight 1 during fight 3 of the same cycle). But at the end of fight 3 when you ready your character for his/her next cycle you have to be under cap. I hope that answers most of your questions. so... i state what i want to scribe, and if i get over the cap, i simply reduce it to what i really may possess for the expendables rule? no money penalty in that? than its easy... i knew about that part with end of 3fc, but this isn't really what concerns me. it's just - can i scribe my scroll of bark skin i am about to use, or not. ;)
Eluria 09-01-07, 08:54 PM	I'm considering making something like the following character: ECL 5 Duergar1/Cleric4 Domains (Magic, Madness) Feats: (Flexible on lvl 1 feat, leaning towards Speed of Thought, Psionic Weapon? Scribe Scroll?), Craft wondrouslvl3 Rebuke Shadow (CR3) at ECL 5 [possibly Vamp Spawn CR4 at ECL6, Wraith CR5 at ECL7] Fight using poisons for ability score damage [prebuffed using racial immunity], Summons for creatures that can poison, having undead that can ability damage, and using spells like Doom [to decrease saves], Ray of Enfeeblement, eventually Poison, etc. I was wondering if anyone had any comments, gestalt feeling about whether this would be effective (it seems fun for me, so that's covered :), or general advice (feat selection in particular... thinking about Craft arms/armor for lvl 6 feat too) Also, I'd love to avoid taking the Magic domain (I would much prefer the Darkness domain, mostly for coolness, but also has some great domain spells), but I can't see having Dwarf 20' movement speed (or 30' with speed of thought) and not having wands of exp retreat, and I think having access to scrolls/wand of ray of enfeeblement is huge for something like this. Duergar entry says "as hill dwarf, except as noted;" does that mean the Duergar gets the dwarven balance bonuses, waraxe proficiency, etc? I would imagine it does. Also, as a psionic duergar, with a pp pool, if I had 1 cc rank of use psionic device, could I prebuff things like "prevenom weapon" from powerstones? Can you have something like prevenom weapon and poison at the same time? I believe I'm reading the ally rules correctly, in terms of those CRs being available as allies at those ECLs ... The "debuffing/draining" theme seems appealing, and I can imagine a nice personality for the dwarf... feels like anyone with an antitoxin potion or decent fort save will laugh at some things (like the poisons; those peter out pretty quickly), but it'd still be a cleric, which is always effectiv-ish... Any comments? Thanks! -e
Salrantol 09-01-07, 10:11 PM	Rebuke Shadow (CR3) at ECL 5 [possibly Vamp Spawn CR4 at ECL6, Wraith CR5 at ECL7] I believe I'm reading the ally rules correctly, in terms of those CRs being available as allies at those ECLsYou're not. Those ECLs are available at those ECLs (max ECL of your ally is ECL -2), but not those CRs (max CR of your ally is ECL -4).
Vathelokai 09-02-07, 01:14 AM	I'm considering making something like the following character: ECL 5 Duergar1/Cleric4 Domains (Magic, Madness) Feats: (Flexible on lvl 1 feat, leaning towards Speed of Thought, Psionic Weapon? Scribe Scroll?), Craft wondrouslvl3 Rebuke Shadow (CR3) at ECL 5 [possibly Vamp Spawn CR4 at ECL6, Wraith CR5 at ECL7] Fight using poisons for ability score damage [prebuffed using racial immunity], Summons for creatures that can poison, having undead that can ability damage, and using spells like Doom [to decrease saves], Ray of Enfeeblement, eventually Poison, etc. Any comments? Thanks! -e Options for poison use: Duergar (la+1), half fiend (la+4), ghoul (la+3), Derro (la+2 and race HD 3) assassin (ecl6), blackguard (ecl6) Note: the Duergar from the psionic srd simply outclass the Duergar from the regular SRD. If you're going for a caster build, Duergar is the obvious choice. Domains: Artifice: +4 craft (including poison) Darkness: blindfight, blacklight, armor of darkness Madness: insanity, confusion, bolts of bedevilment Death: death touch, animate dead, death ward, slay living Luck: reroll a 1 every day Travel: escape webs and entangles, longstrider, fly, dimention door Trickery: hide as class skill, invisibility, non-detection, confusion At first glance; artifice is nice, but not nessicary if you pick up a custom item, darkness is always nice, madness is only worth it if you're doing lots of save or die spells, death fits your theme very well, travel can help with your mobility problems. I have an image of a death cleric casting contingent animate dead, then killing their opponents allies with death touch. That's class. For me, it would be a tough call between madness, magic, and death. Spells: debuffing/counter buffing: bane, doom, desecrate, silence, bestow curse, invis purge, symbol of pain stat dmg: contagion, poison Wizard spells of use to this build: flare, touch of fatigue, chill touch, ray of enfeeblement, summon swarm, touch of idiocy, scare, pyrotechnics, ray of exhaustion, slow Makes me think that Magic domain might be nessicary to make this work. But there is the problem of all the wizard spells having low saves. The rays and touch of ideocy don't have saves though. Poisons: If you're immune to poison, the contact poisons can be great, price wise. Smear some sassone leaf residue on your hands before smacking an elf. Or terinav root. Dragon bile is really a bargin for that high dc. Inhaled and ingested poisons are not really worth it. Hard to use and/or expensive. For injury, large scorpion and giant wasp have good poisons. The other injury poisons are either too weak or too expensive. Poisonous Allies: The poison save on most summoned insects in not very intimidating, compared to the level they appear at. The viper snakes are the best for poison overall, but the vermin have their perks. Good strategy against casters and low mobility types, but not something to rely on, especially at higher levels SM I: DC 10-12, 1d3 dex or 1d2 con SM II: DC11, 1d6 con or 1d4 dex SM III: same as SMII (but also, dire weasels) SM IV: dc14 for 1d6 con or 1d6 str SM V: dc14 for 1d4 con (also, bearded devils) lesser planar ally: imp, quasit, vargouille, bearded devil Undead Allies: I could have sworn that we voted on how to figure the maxCA of an ally with both ECL and CR. However, I cannot find it anywhere. As you might have noticed, I like the build idea :rolleyes: . Enought rambling.... off to bed with me.
templer10 09-02-07, 01:39 AM	so... i state what i want to scribe, and if i get over the cap, i simply reduce it to what i really may possess for the expendables rule? no money penalty in that? than its easy... i knew about that part with end of 3fc, but this isn't really what concerns me. it's just - can i scribe my scroll of bark skin i am about to use, or not. ;) not exacly- at end of the 3fc if you crafted some scrolls and now over the expendble cap you need to SELL some off - and as such you get as usuall only half their worth in gold - normally it wouldnt make a diffrense if you scribed everything but it will if you bought some for full price.
whitebaron 09-02-07, 09:27 AM	not exacly- at end of the 3fc if you crafted some scrolls and now over the expendble cap you need to SELL some off - and as such you get as usuall only half their worth in gold - normally it wouldnt make a diffrense if you scribed everything but it will if you bought some for full price. ok, so if i sell self-scribed scrolls, i get half of its actual price, which is the same as the amount i paid for them. thats ok enough for me, since i'll try and scribe most of the scrolls myself.
whitebaron 09-02-07, 12:29 PM	something else: i'm going to audit karen and samuel from lonewolf this week. just letting you know, if someone decides to do the same.. ;)
lonewolf 09-02-07, 03:40 PM	If a summoned fiendish monstrous spider has used his web to entangle someone and the summon monster spell runs up, does the webbed person stay entangled or not?
whitebaron 09-02-07, 03:42 PM	If a summoned fiendish monstrous spider has used his web to entangle someone and the summon monster spell runs up, does the webbed person stay entangled or not? i'd say, its the same if a person dies, or a summon is dismissed. so the web should stay.
Eamane 09-02-07, 04:18 PM	If a summoned fiendish monstrous spider has used his web to entangle someone and the summon monster spell runs up, does the webbed person stay entangled or not? Lets see. It's a conjuration (summoning) spell and the text for Summon Monster doesn't specify what happens when the spell ends, so we'll use the basic summoning guidelines.. Summoning: A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower. It is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can’t be summoned again. When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire. A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have, and it refuses to cast any spells that would cost it XP, or to use any spell-like abilities that would cost XP if they were spells. So a bit of a contradiction. If the webs the spiders threw are 'objects' then they stay. If the webs the spiders threw are 'spells' or magical effects, then they go away. Given the webbing is a (Ex) ability of the non-templated ability, I'm inclined to say the webs stay. And on another note... Cool. Webs. I didn't know they could do that.
Erithmu 09-02-07, 04:23 PM	@LW: I'm sure I'm the recipient and I would read it the same way. Now If I could just figure out how to access the coco roller.
Sjiggie 09-02-07, 04:29 PM	I've been trying it to do it also but I get stuck in editting the rights of the filename. Damn Vista!
whitebaron 09-02-07, 04:34 PM	@LW: I'm sure I'm the recipient and I would read it the same way. Now If I could just figure out how to access the coco roller. have you tried this yet? muckis fix about hwx.it @sjiggie: try this. take the file. copy it to another location. edit it there, save it there. then copy it back. should work, according to a vista forum. ;)
Erithmu 09-02-07, 04:39 PM	I am the proud owner of a mac ... and I haven't figured out where the hosts file is to edit Path names aren't even the same ...
whitebaron 09-02-07, 04:41 PM	I am the proud owner of a mac ... and I haven't figured out where the hosts file is to edit Path names aren't even the same ... /private/etc/hosts or read: http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=88158
Erithmu 09-02-07, 06:24 PM	Thanks ... had to make an airport run ... it works now
Eluria 09-02-07, 08:27 PM	You're not. Those ECLs are available at those ECLs (max ECL of your ally is ECL -2), but not those CRs (max CR of your ally is ECL -4). Are you sure? I can't see that anywhere in the rules on Allies (relevant section quoted in sblock) The Cap on Allies You may have any number of cohorts or allies. However, there is a limit to how many you can have helping you in any given battle. ("helping" means anything from actually being present in the Arena or quest to fight with you, to just casting a pre-buff on you. If a cohort or ally had anything to do with your fight, it will count against the limit). Any ally you want to bring into a fight, quest or whatever must be prebuffed! For more information on Prebuffs, see Arena Combat II. Also your character’s ECL must meet the Minimal ECL Requirement for any allies you bring. The formula for allies: CA = coefficient of allies [COLOR=Olive]Aecli = ECL of the i'th Ally (0 if LA is '-') Acri = CR of the i'th Ally (0 if LA is not '-') CA = sum(Aecli+Acri) Example: Johnny Uncarismatic is an 10th level human cleric. He has the leadership feat, but only has leadership score of 4. If he brought in his cohort (ECL 4) rode a light warhorse (CR1) and had raised an Ogre Skeleton (CR2) and a wolf skeleton (CR1). He would have a CA=sum(4+1+2+1)=8. Maximum CA: The maximum CA a gladiator may bring into each fight is equal to his ECL-2. Explanation: If [i]all of your Allies have an ECL (ECL=LA+HD), then you should simply add their ECLs together. The result must be at least 2 less than your own ECL. So, for example, our ECL 10 cleric could have a single ECL 8 cohort, or two ECL 3 and one ECL 2 ally, or any other combination adding up to 8 (his ECL-2). That is meant by Aecl>ECL-2. Explanation: If your Allies do not have a LA, then you need to use their CR to calculate your ally limit. Also you must meet the Minimal ECL Requirement to bring these allies with you. To determine the maximum amount of allies you can bring in (CA) you have to add all allies ECL's (if they have a LA) and CR's (if they do not have a LA), and this sum must not be greater than your ECL-2. @Vath - thank you for that awesomely detailed and well thought-out post in reply, I really really found that helpful and encouraging. I PMd you with more thought/discussion. Now I'm psyched; I wish I had more time :( -e PS: can anyone clear things up about the MaxCR of allies? Am I being dense or blind?
Eamane 09-02-07, 08:33 PM	*snip* PS: can anyone clear things up about the MaxCR of allies? Am I being dense or blind? The allies rules section is in disarray at present, with several basic pieces missing (like how to calculate MaxCR). But yes, Max CR is ECL -4 atm. (Funny, for allies, we acknowledge that a CR is much more powerful than an ECL of the same amount, but for monster fights, we assume otherwise...)
MindWandererB 09-02-07, 08:41 PM	The domain hwx.it (the computer where the CoCo dice roller and battle map run) seems to be experienceing some kind of DNS failure currently. The computer is up, but some people (me, eamane) are unable to reach it. You can fix this by adding the following line into your hosts file: 83.103.68.207 www.hwx.it You can find the file here: Windows: C:\Windows\System32\drivers\etc\hosts Linux (and probably mac also, dunno): /etc/hosts @Dracazar: If you happen to read this, from over here it looks like the nameservers listed in your whois entry do not carry your domain anymore ... you might want to check into that ;-)I tried this, and it's still not working for me....
Salrantol 09-02-07, 08:44 PM	Actually, the rule has simply been recategorized and moved. It's in the Allies II section:Minimal ECL Requirements Allies acquired can only aid you in a battle if your ECL meets the Minimal ECL Requirement. An Elite version of a purchased or Handle Animal ally increases the Minimal ECL Requirement by +1. Certain spells and powers (Planar Ally, Animate Dead, Dominate, Animate Object, etc.), abilities (rebuke undead, create spawn, etc.) allow a character to summon, create, or control allies. The potential combinations of these kinds of allies are so numerous that it is difficult to list them all at this time. In such cases the Minimal ECL Requirement = CR+4. So to bring a Nightmare Skeleton (CR3), you must have an ECL of 7. The Minimal ECL Requirement of Leadership allies or Mercenaries is equal to ECL +2. So for an 8th Level Human Cleric Mercenary ally, you must have an ECL of 8+2=10 to bring this ally. 3: Dog, Donkey, Light Horse 4: Heavy Horse, Mule, Riding Dog, War Pony, 5: Baboon, Badger, Bat, Cat, Camel, Dire Rat, Eagle, Hawk, Lizard, Monkey, Owl, Pony, Rat, Raven, Snake (Small or Medium Viper), Toad, Weasel, Tiny or Small Monstrous Spider, Tiny/Small/Medium Monstrous Centipede, Tiny/Small Monstrous Scorpion, Brain Mole, Hyena, Stirge, Wolf, Giant Ant Worker, Medium Monstrous Spider, Medium Monstrous Scorpion, Light Warhorse, Heavy Warhorse, Pseudodragon (Dragon), Darkmantle, Large Monstrous Centipede, Giant Bee 6: Ape, Black Bear, Bison, Boar, Cheetah, Crocodile, Dire Bat, Dire Badger, Dire Weasel, Hippogriff, Leopard, Monitor Lizard, Shocker Lizard, Snake (constrictor), Snake (large viper), Wolverine, Giant Ant Soldier, Giant Bombardier Beetle, Large Monstrous Spider 7: Giant Eagle, Lion, Giant Owl, Pegasus, Phantom Fungus, Rust Monster, Giant Ant Queen, Giant Praying Mantis, Giant Wasp, Large Monstrous Scorpion, Huge Monstrous Centipede 8: Brown Bear, Carrion Crawler, Crocodile (giant), Deinoychus, Dire Ape, Dire Boar, Dire Wolf, Dire Wolverine, Elasmosaurus, Rhinoceros, Snake (huge viper), Tiger, Giant Stag Beetle 9: Ankheg, Cockatrice, Griffon, Owlbear, Spidereater, Huge Monstrous Spider 10: 11: Flesh Golem, Grey Glutton, Huge Scorpion 12: Basilisk, Digester, Dire Lion, Girallon, Megaraptor, Polar Bear, Snake (giant constrictor), Shield Guardian, Huge Monstrous Scorpion, 13: 14: Clay Golem 15: Bulette, Dire Bear, Elephant, Stone Golem 16: Psion-Killer 17: Iron Golem 18: Dire Tiger, Gorgon, Triceratops, Tyrannosaurus
Eamane 09-02-07, 08:58 PM	Actually, the rule has simply been recategorized and moved. It's in the Allies II section: Yeah. You'll notice the complete lack of the words 'MaxCR' in there, which Allies I still refers to. Hence the disarray.
Taureus_Drakken 09-03-07, 12:05 AM	How does using a wand while entangled by a web spell work? The spell says you get entangled upon failing your save. Being entangled requires a Concentration check to cast spells. But wands are spell trigger items. I figure this needs a Concentration check, but just want to be sure. ¬Taureus¬
Eamane 09-03-07, 01:54 AM	How does using a wand while entangled by a web spell work? The spell says you get entangled upon failing your save. Being entangled requires a Concentration check to cast spells. But wands are spell trigger items. I figure this needs a Concentration check, but just want to be sure. ¬Taureus¬ Well, it's my fight your asking about so don't take my word for it. But; No, it doesn't require a concentration check. Using a wand is a heck of a lot easier than casting a spell. Hence the lack of provoking an AoO, etc, etc. Reading the SRD entry on the Concentration (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/skillsCon.html) skill will outline when concentration checks are needed; you'll notice that 'activating a magical item' is not among them. If possible, wait for someone else to confirm my statements before continuing to run the fight.
templer10 09-03-07, 03:30 AM	How does using a wand while entangled by a web spell work? The spell says you get entangled upon failing your save. Being entangled requires a Concentration check to cast spells. But wands are spell trigger items. I figure this needs a Concentration check, but just want to be sure. ¬Taureus¬ You dont need concetration to activate wands/dorjas- in fact you can even use them while grappled or Swallowed whole without any problem.
Taureus_Drakken 09-03-07, 03:42 AM	I thought so, but then when I asked a couple friends, they both said it was needed. So I asked a few more, different friends; they agreed with me. @Eamane: That fact definitely determined the outcome of that match... @t10: I know what you mean by lots of rolls, even the "few" that I had took a while (compared to what you had). ¬Taureus¬
whitebaron 09-03-07, 04:20 AM	I tried this, and it's still not working for me.... your links is really http://www.hwx.it/wizards.com/index.php ? if it is only hwx.it without the www, you need to change it, since dns won't work. else you could add "hwx.it" as well as "www.hwx.it" in there. (one blank
lonewolf 09-03-07, 11:58 AM	Does anyone else have problems with links to very old battles? Samuels links used to work, but now the link goes to nowhere.
whitebaron 09-03-07, 12:50 PM	Does anyone else have problems with links to very old battles? Samuels links used to work, but now the link goes to nowhere. any link that is done as [ post=xxx] doesnt work anymore. links not using this shortcut are fine though. i guess this is some kind of configuration issue. you can try to use the boards1.wizard.com-variant with showpost.php?p=xxx, maybe this works. btw: i will add the undead traits to your audited char sheet ths evening, since we both seem to have missed that.
NiQil 09-03-07, 01:11 PM	any link that is done as [ post=xxx] doesnt work anymore. links not using this shortcut are fine though. i guess this is some kind of configuration issue. you can try to use the boards1.wizard.com-variant with showpost.php?p=xxx, maybe this works. btw: i will add the undead traits to your audited char sheet ths evening, since we both seem to have missed that. This is completely incorrect.....this post, which links to your post above, works just fine. And it is written in the ----- format.
lonewolf 09-03-07, 01:13 PM	I think what he meant is that links with post tags dont work when linking into the archives, and that may be correct.
NiQil 09-03-07, 01:47 PM	I think what he meant is that links with post tags dont work when linking into the archives, and that may be correct. Ahhh....that could very well be the case. I have not tried that....I never use anything except the [post] code.
whitebaron 09-03-07, 02:14 PM	Ahhh....that could very well be the case. I have not tried that....I never use anything except the [post] code. just try it on one of your older characters. there your [ post=xxx] links might be broken too. on samuel's sheet there are many such broken links...
MindWandererB 09-03-07, 02:30 PM	There have been a few complaints about this now... let me see if I can get Shadow to pull up the Battles I thread from the archive.
Eluria 09-03-07, 09:14 PM	If anyone's interested, Wroth Korthek, The Plaguebringer, is pretty much done. Again, I'd welcome any comments, feedback, or suggestions. Thanks! -e
Vathelokai 09-03-07, 10:31 PM	If anyone's interested, Wroth Korthek, The Plaguebringer, is pretty much done. Again, I'd welcome any comments, feedback, or suggestions. Thanks! -e Errors: Next to your hp you have [2HD] listed; should be 3. Remember to get a holy symbol. Why are only half of your poisons self crafted? Scroll of protection from evil: since you are an evil cleric your alignment prohibits you from using [good] spells, like prot. evil. Craft weapons and armor ranks say '1 cleric', even though you have 4 ranks. Suggestions: It may be worthwhile to grab a few scrolls for expiditious reatreat, and wait to get the wand until you can get one with a higher caster level. Lots of builds can evade for 1 minute, but few can for 2-3 minutes. Keeps them from running away, and keeps you from having to recast it mid-fight. Wand of ray of enfeeblement: note that Ray of E causes a str penalty instead of str drain. In practical terms, this means that multiple hits from the ray overlap (do not stack), since they are not 'damage'. Was fun working with you. ;)
Taureus_Drakken 09-04-07, 12:03 AM	Rauul was having trouble with connecting to the server earlier. He had already told me that I could do the rolls for my quest if it was needed. And since he still has his other fights to run, I am going to go ahead and start. I just need a little help what to give the dragon for equipment. Expendables aren't an issue, I just want to know if the following is fine: - Amulet of Natural Armor +1 (2000gp) It seems like I will have to use potions, since a black wyrmling doesn't have a spell-list. I am thinking: Protection from Good, Magic Fang, Mage Armor, 2x CLW. ¬Taureus¬
Eluria 09-04-07, 07:01 AM	Errors: Next to your hp you have [2HD] listed; should be 3. Remember to get a holy symbol. Why are only half of your poisons self crafted? Scroll of protection from evil: since you are an evil cleric your alignment prohibits you from using [good] spells, like prot. evil. Craft weapons and armor ranks say '1 cleric', even though you have 4 ranks. Suggestions: It may be worthwhile to grab a few scrolls for expiditious reatreat, and wait to get the wand until you can get one with a higher caster level. Lots of builds can evade for 1 minute, but few can for 2-3 minutes. Keeps them from running away, and keeps you from having to recast it mid-fight. Wand of ray of enfeeblement: note that Ray of E causes a str penalty instead of str drain. In practical terms, this means that multiple hits from the ray overlap (do not stack), since they are not 'damage'. Was fun working with you. ;) --2 HD was from before I decided to start at ECL 4, nice catch --Holy symbol I entirely overlooked, very nice catch --I forgot to list that I crafted those other poisons, thx --Crafting 1 rank was from when I was toying with the Artifice domain, which the +4 crafting ROCKS, but the domain spells from having Magic and Artifice as your two domains are atrocious! --Excellent exp. retreat suggestion, taken in and used. Great working with you too, thanks for the help! (Looking at the save numbers, and every gladiator's fort save of like +6-ish, I'm not entirely optimistic of success, but it seems like a fun concept that I haven't seen around, and certainly never used in a TT game) Thanks! -e
Macbrea 09-04-07, 08:36 AM	Ok, for those of you that have asked. http://home.earthlink.net/~macbrea/coco/COCO172/ Is the current code for the CoCo php files (Version 1.72). My server of cannot run PHP, so you will see the raw code. The problem comes in Dracazar has his server specially set up to replace commas with &. This is because wizard boards are designed to not allow external linking of webpages. In wizards case it would show up as a link if the & were there. The version of the code in the base directory is Mal-2's code to this point on lighting. It works but needs to have it set up as more then hard coded lights. I just haven't had time to go back through and alter the code in version 1.72 yet. It's on my to-do list but at the moment my company is merging and I am worried more of having work then having play. http://home.earthlink.net/~macbrea/coco/
hogarth 09-04-07, 03:20 PM	What kind of limits are there on the standard action that a character gets when using the Assassinate package? For instance, could Balthazar Picsou use it to activate his Bronze Griffon and then have it do a partial charge? Or would activating a Bronze Griffon not "affect the ally in a harmful way"? Or would the Bronze Griffon be unable to act?
Macbrea 09-04-07, 04:03 PM	There is no partial charge left in 3.5 by the way. :P
hogarth 09-04-07, 04:07 PM	There is no partial charge left in 3.5 by the way. :P It may not be called that any longer, but how would you describe this maneuver? If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn.
TelinArtho 09-04-07, 04:12 PM	First off - I certainly would not allow you to activate and attack with it. A surprise round is only 1 standard action. Secondly - its not clear to me whether allies (say if the griffon were left over from the previous fight) would be able to act in that surprise round or not.
Macbrea 09-04-07, 04:13 PM	Zombies and slowed creatures are allowed to charge.
TelinArtho 09-04-07, 04:16 PM	Zombies and slowed creatures are allowed to charge. By definition of the surprise round - a person is restricted to a single standard action. Ergo - a character/creature can perform a charge on a surprise round with that above clause.
hogarth 09-04-07, 04:18 PM	First off - I certainly would not allow you to activate and attack with it. A surprise round is only 1 standard action. I don't understand this part of the objection -- activating the griffon takes a standard action and telling it to attack is a free action, right? (There's no Handle Animal check or anything; you're just giving it an order in Common.) But the Assassinate action doesn't give you a surprise round, so it basically works however we decide that it works, I guess.
Macbrea 09-04-07, 04:26 PM	The true problem with the assassination ability is you cannot actually use death attack. :P It requires 3 rounds of studying your opponent. Are you allowed to write a prebuff action of: "I study my opponent for the hours before the match!" as a prebuff action?
TelinArtho 09-04-07, 04:47 PM	Effect: You gain one standard action against an opponent's ally. You may apply any prebuffed effect to the attack. This attack takes place before initiative is rolled, which in most cases means that the ally is flat-footed against the attack. If either character gets any prebuff or surprise rounds, they take place immediately following this attack. . Note: The action must affect the ally in a harmful way. You cannot use this action to buff yourself. Okay. It sounds like it's pretty clear that the attack takes place pre-initiative. If that means the target loses Dex, then they lose Dex. What's unclear are: - Does the attack take place enough before initiative that the victim can be healed? What about fast healing/regeneration? (My opinion: since there's no fixed amount of time involved, I think it's easiest to say that the attack takes place at Initiative Count 0. Otherwise, we need to state exactly how many rounds take place in between the attack and the fight--although that could be made equal to the time roll. Both are viable options; the latter nerfs this ability somewhat.) - Can the assassin prebuff observing the victim for 3 rounds? (That could be just sick and wrong.) The consensus seems to be that 1) the attack takes place immediately before the first round of battle (whether that's a suprise round, a prebuff round, or whatever). For poisons or other attacks where subsequent timing is an issue, start counting from there (so if there's an assassination, a prebuff round, and a surprise round, then poison would kick in 8 rounds into the fight). Looks to me that you cannot prebuff it (at the moment), but if you can use the assassinate package, get a couple of prebuff rounds and then a surprise round - you could do the death attack then.
Macbrea 09-04-07, 05:51 PM	Death attack must be made with a melee strike. There is no way to start in melee on round 2 in any arena without the opponent knowing your their enemy.
TelinArtho 09-04-07, 05:54 PM	Ah yes - well that clause does make the Death attack pretty much impossible in the arena. But - then - there's always quests to make use of it...
hogarth 09-04-07, 06:24 PM	Ah yes - well that clause does make the Death attack pretty much impossible in the arena. But - then - there's always quests to make use of it... Why is it so difficult to manage in the arena? All you need to do is go undetected for 3 rounds, then make a sneak attack in the three rounds after that. That hardly sounds impossible to me. I guess Balthazar Picsou will find out this week, though.
Macbrea 09-04-07, 06:32 PM	The problem is with how the line is written: While studying the victim, the assassin can undertake other actions so long as his attention stays focused on the target and the target does not detect the assassin or recognize the assassin as an enemy. That last line results in a problem in the arena. Since, charm doesn't work because you know you fighting someone to start with and who your enemy is. You should have a problem because all gladiators know who their enemy is hours before.
whitebaron 09-04-07, 06:34 PM	The problem is with how the line is written: While studying the victim, the assassin can undertake other actions so long as his attention stays focused on the target and the target does not detect the assassin or recognize the assassin as an enemy. That last line results in a problem in the arena. Since, charm doesn't work because you know you fighting someone to start with and who your enemy is. You should have a problem because all gladiators know who their enemy is hours before. thats not a problem. the clause tells explicitly "OR" - so if you are concealed (i.e. invisibility), death attack still works even in the arena. - you just dont get it automatically, you need to work for it.
hogarth 09-04-07, 06:36 PM	The problem is with how the line is written: While studying the victim, the assassin can undertake other actions so long as his attention stays focused on the target and the target does not detect the assassin or recognize the assassin as an enemy. That last line results in a problem in the arena. Since, charm doesn't work because you know you fighting someone to start with and who your enemy is. You should have a problem because all gladiators know who their enemy is hours before. So if you don't see an assassin, you still recognize him as an enemy? So he has to be disguised as well as invisible? "Hey -- I think I recognize that guy I don't see. It must be Fred!" :looloo:
MindWandererB 09-04-07, 10:01 PM	Ok, for those of you that have asked. http://home.earthlink.net/~macbrea/coco/COCO172/ Is the current code for the CoCo php files (Version 1.72). My server of cannot run PHP, so you will see the raw code. The problem comes in Dracazar has his server specially set up to replace commas with &. This is because wizard boards are designed to not allow external linking of webpages. In wizards case it would show up as a link if the & were there. The version of the code in the base directory is Mal-2's code to this point on lighting. It works but needs to have it set up as more then hard coded lights. I just haven't had time to go back through and alter the code in version 1.72 yet. It's on my to-do list but at the moment my company is merging and I am worried more of having work then having play. http://home.earthlink.net/~macbrea/coco/ I see the map files and... the distance calculator?! Why hasn't this been in a place where we can use it? What about the code for the ready-crawler and the pairingsmaker? Drac says he gave them to you.
waywreth 09-04-07, 10:31 PM	I realized I had my druid as a d6 character rather than d8 character. At least he's still 6-2 even with that handicap. Kind of a testament to the power of a druid in a Core World, eh?
Macbrea 09-04-07, 11:05 PM	I see the map files and... the distance calculator?! Why hasn't this been in a place where we can use it? What about the code for the ready-crawler and the pairingsmaker? Drac says he gave them to you. I don't have the code for the pairings crawler or the ready-crawler. It wasn't the code sent to me. What was sent to me was the stuff for the distance calculator and the mapper. As what i asked him for was the mapper code. So, that I could work on it to add lighting effects already coded by Mal-2. They are the ones that need to be finished.
c00lz3 09-05-07, 12:24 AM	I wanted to make a smoke bomb effect and I was thinking you could do this with two items, smokestick & alchemist fire. If you drop both of them in the same square it would light the smokestick activating its effects. I just wanted to know if it sounds legit.
Eamane 09-05-07, 12:29 AM	I wanted to make a smoke bomb effect and I was thinking you could do this with two items, smokestick & alchemist fire. If you drop both of them in the same square it would light the smokestick activating its effects. I just wanted to know if it sounds legit. RAW (rules as written) it doesn't, because the alchemist fire only damages creatures, not objects. Logically speaking? Sure. Mechanically, you would have to have both the smokestick and alchemist fire in hand (which means nothing else; unless you have extra arms), then you would have to drop the smokestick into an adjacent/your square as a free action, then a standard action to attack a square intersection close to the smoke stick with the alchemist fire. As your almost at ground zero, you'd likely take the 1 point of splash damage from the flask. Then you'd have a move action left over to move with (natch) and make good your escape.
c00lz3 09-05-07, 12:41 AM	RAW (rules as written) it doesn't, because the alchemist fire only damages creatures, not objects. Logically speaking? Sure. Mechanically, you would have to have both the smokestick and alchemist fire in hand (which means nothing else; unless you have extra arms), then you would have to drop the smokestick into an adjacent/your square as a free action, then a standard action to attack a square intersection close to the smoke stick with the alchemist fire. As your almost at ground zero, you'd likely take the 1 point of splash damage from the flask. Then you'd have a move action left over to move with (natch) and make good your escape. That line about creatures was the only thing in my way. I think its silly, you could throw acid and alchemist fire at a table or door and nothing happens. It could work with low level powers/spells but who wants to use them if you don't have to :P
Vathelokai 09-05-07, 01:06 AM	That line about creatures was the only thing in my way. I think its silly, you could throw acid and alchemist fire at a table or door and nothing happens. It could work with low level powers/spells but who wants to use them if you don't have to :P I believe it does dmg objects. First, it creates 1d6 fire dmg; in the section on sundering objects it specifies how that works (feeling too lazy to look it up, but I think it's half dmg, and things like paper get a reduced save or something). Second, it only says that the splash dmg only effects creatures. So the plan should work. You could throw the smoke stick, then on the next round throw the alc.fire. Both throws are AC 5 (to hit a square) and it would fail if you rolled 1 on the dmg.
lonewolf 09-05-07, 03:51 AM	Its shopping time for Samuel again, and I´d like some input on my plans. restock expendables(including stones of dispel magic ML7, potions of invisibility, maybe some ranger crafted potions of resist energy(CL7), ...) other ideas? Ring of Counterspells(for Dispel Magic) 4000gp To protect my buffs against all those casters. unfortunately this doesnt work against dispel psionics, so im still vulnerable to that. Psionatrix of telepathy 8,000 gp For Ego Whip. Is this worth it? At the moment, I would save the rest of the money to buy a Tome of Leadership and Influence +3, but It will take some time to scratch together that much money. Is this worth it? Any other ideas?
hogarth 09-05-07, 06:44 AM	Its shopping time for Samuel again, and I´d like some input on my plans. Any other ideas? I've been mulling over a ghost character, and one thing I thought of buying was a hippogriff. It would increase your speed enormously and you could easily begin and end your turn within a solid object while still attacking. Getting an NPC to cast Deeper Darkness on something (to assist in hiding) might be a good idea too.
templer10 09-05-07, 07:05 AM	I've been mulling over a ghost character, and one thing I thought of buying was a hippogriff. It would increase your speed enormously and you could easily begin and end your turn within a solid object while still attacking. Getting an NPC to cast Deeper Darkness on something (to assist in hiding) might be a good idea too. how do you Stay ON the hipo if you are incorporeal?
hogarth 09-05-07, 07:07 AM	how do you Stay ON the hipo if you are incorporeal? The hippogriff is on the Ethereal Plane, of course (where ghosts are not incorporeal). EDIT: Actually, maybe a smart creature like a pegasus would be better since you could give it specific orders like "Grapple me and move the grapple into a solid object".
lonewolf 09-05-07, 08:03 AM	An ethereal mount. :thinks: good idea, but is that allowed?
hogarth 09-05-07, 09:15 AM	An ethereal mount. :thinks: good idea, but is that allowed? I think the general idea of ghostly allies came up with Zelck's character Walden (who has a psicrystal, IIRC). I thought the decision was that allies are allowed, but the ghost has to choose whether a particular ally resides on the material or ethereal plane (just like he has to choose whether a piece of equipment is on the material or ethereal plane).
SoulLord 09-05-07, 11:54 AM	The problem is with how the line is written: While studying the victim, the assassin can undertake other actions so long as his attention stays focused on the target and the target does not detect the assassin or recognize the assassin as an enemy. That last line results in a problem in the arena. Since, charm doesn't work because you know you fighting someone to start with and who your enemy is. You should have a problem because all gladiators know who their enemy is hours before. I think the rules as intended is that you can perform a death attack if after 3 rounds of study either A) the target doesn't detect you (invisibility, concealment, etc.) OR B) the target doesn't see you as an enemy (disguise or the like)
Taureus_Drakken 09-05-07, 01:08 PM	Can I reactivate a character who didn't get a chance to go on his quest? (due to extenuating real-life incidents that happened to the QL) Either trying to find a new QL this week, or being paired is fine with me. ¬Taureus¬
TelinArtho 09-05-07, 01:49 PM	@Taureus - you might send a PM to MWB about it if you want to forego the quest for now. Otherwise, you might send PMs to some of the members around who might be available to do quests/miniquests. I'm sorry - but I don't think I can take another quest right now.
SauroGrenom 09-05-07, 07:50 PM	Its shopping time for Samuel again, and I´d like some input on my plans. restock expendables(including stones of dispel magic ML7, potions of invisibility, maybe some ranger crafted potions of resist energy(CL7), ...) other ideas? Ring of Counterspells(for Dispel Magic) 4000gp To protect my buffs against all those casters. unfortunately this doesnt work against dispel psionics, so im still vulnerable to that. Psionatrix of telepathy 8,000 gp For Ego Whip. Is this worth it? At the moment, I would save the rest of the money to buy a Tome of Leadership and Influence +3, but It will take some time to scratch together that much money. Is this worth it? Any other ideas?Generally it's best to spread money around. If you are going for a tomb, you must go for the +5 tomb. Those things don't stack bonuses. So if you buy a +3 tomb now, and a +2 tomb later, you only get +3... For a ghost, expendables are not a bad choice. You can always choose not to spend them, but they represent options against your foes. Also a dex boost item is a top choice, that helps out your touch attack bonus. Also consider something to get you SR. There are lots of items or powerstones. You can get a custom item that casts Shield... that helps out against MM. An item that protects against turn attempts... Some kind of Desecrate item would be a good choice for a ghost.
Taureus_Drakken 09-05-07, 08:56 PM	@Telin: It looks like I was assigned to someone else who was interested in running a quest. I had to run to work right after I had posted about seeing if I could get paired this week. But I am fine with trying to get the quest finished, I would rather have a success/failure because of the events of the quest than because i wanted to be paired. I sent Sjiggie a PM, so hopefully things will get rolling. ¬Taureus¬
Book5 09-06-07, 01:24 AM	I am sure we could come up with some others but I had this idea for the News paper I wanted to run by ya'll. Guildmasters specifically. Two Reporters. I am not planning on activating any characters anytime soon, but I would like to play my characters a little. Unless you object.. I was thinking of making Tan and Ba'al into .. Two Reporters for the "Weekly" news! I could roam them around and do "Interviews" in the various guilds. Thoughts?
waywreth 09-07-07, 11:47 AM	@Book5 - Sounds like a cool idea to me, I would check with whomever is running the paper (still Vathelokai I believe). And a question - if I have a cohort, and buy something that increases the character with the leadership feat's charisma (and/or leadership score), the cohort immediately levels? What happens if he takes the item off?
hogarth 09-07-07, 11:54 AM	And a question - if I have a cohort, and buy something that increases the character with the leadership feat's charisma (and/or leadership score), the cohort immediately levels? What happens if he takes the item off? The cohort would gain a level (between fights, obviously) if you so chose; it's not mandatory. If you took the item off in combat, I don't think the cohort would desert you (although that's debatable), but you would certainly need to have the item worn in order to bring the cohort into a fight in the first place. Note that cohorts never regress in levels; it specifies that in the Rules of Gladius.
Taureus_Drakken 09-07-07, 12:50 PM	@Hogarth: How do you figure it would level? Once you have an established cohort, they need XP just like everyone else does to level. The leadership score only adjudicates what level cohort you can have to start with upon taking the feat, and how many followers you could have. The only thing that would increase by having a higher Cha would be the number of followers you could have and the highest level your cohort could reach. Emphasis mine. @Waywreth: Your cohort levels as described in the Leadership feat. Increasing your leadership scores doesn't make it so your cohort immediately levels. ¬Taureus¬
TelinArtho 09-07-07, 12:57 PM	@Hogarth: How do you figure it would level? Once you have an established cohort, they need XP just like everyone else does to level. The leadership score only adjudicates what level cohort you can have to start with upon taking the feat, and how many followers you could have. The only thing that would increase by having a higher Cha would be the number of followers you could have and the highest level your cohort could reach. Emphasis mine. @Waywreth: Your cohort levels as described in the Leadership feat. Increasing your leadership scores doesn't make it so your cohort immediately levels. ¬Taureus¬ That would be in the Rules of Gladius: The Leadership feat is one of the most common ways to get a cohort. You need to go on a quest to find your Leadership cohort. Note that there are two important differences between Leadership cohorts in the Core Coliseum and the rules written down in the PHB. Firstly, Leadership cohorts do not keep track of XP, and do not use the method of advancement outlined in the PHB. Instead, they are always at the maximum level allowed by your Leadership score (see DMG,p106). For example, if your Leadership score is 17, your cohort would be level 12. You may have your cohort be lower in level than what would be allowed by your Leadership score, if you like; however, you cannot "regress" your cohort in levels. If, for example, your cohort was level 10 at one point, then he may never drop below level 10 from then on. If your Leadership score drops for some reason, and is no longer sufficient for your cohort, then your cohort will not help you in any way until you get your Leadership score back up again. Secondly, Leadership cohorts, like most other cohorts, require a share of your XP and gold (see below). All leadership allies use the 25 pt-buy method to determine ability scores.
hogarth 09-07-07, 12:57 PM	@Hogarth: How do you figure it would level? Once you have an established cohort, they need XP just like everyone else does to level. The leadership score only adjudicates what level cohort you can have to start with upon taking the feat, and how many followers you could have. The only thing that would increase by having a higher Cha would be the number of followers you could have and the highest level your cohort could reach. Emphasis mine. It's a Core Coliseum house rule: Leadership cohorts do not keep track of XP, and do not use the method of advancement outlined in the PHB. Instead, they are always at the maximum level allowed by your Leadership score (see DMG,p106). ... You may have your cohort be lower in level than what would be allowed by your Leadership score, if you like; however, you cannot "regress" your cohort in levels.
whitebaron 09-07-07, 03:03 PM	simple question: can two characters actually attack simultaneously? (especially important for coup de grace, since familiar could hit as well, making the save harder.)
Eamane 09-07-07, 03:06 PM	simple question: can two characters actually attack simultaneously? (especially important for coup de grace, since familiar could hit as well, making the save harder.) Actions are never truly simultaneous. They can both happen on the same initiative count, but one will happen before the other. For a familiar; It would likely be more effective to have two CDG attempts anyways.
whitebaron 09-07-07, 03:33 PM	Actions are never truly simultaneous. They can both happen on the same initiative count, but one will happen before the other. For a familiar; It would likely be more effective to have two CDG attempts anyways. since you instantly awake after sleep is disrupted via damage, this would mean you can't make two cdg from sleep, but with color spray, its possible for 2hd and below.
TelinArtho 09-07-07, 03:36 PM	Yes - for the specific case of sleep - you won't be able to do 2 CDGs (unless another condition existed to keep the person helpless). Actions are not simultaneous in combat.
TelinArtho 09-07-07, 04:36 PM	Options for poison use: Duergar (la+1), half fiend (la+4), ghoul (la+3), Derro (la+2 and race HD 3) assassin (ecl6), blackguard (ecl6) Note: the Duergar from the psionic srd simply outclass the Duergar from the regular SRD. If you're going for a caster build, Duergar is the obvious choice. Domains: Artifice: +4 craft (including poison) Darkness: blindfight, blacklight, armor of darkness Madness: insanity, confusion, bolts of bedevilment Death: death touch, animate dead, death ward, slay living Luck: reroll a 1 every day Travel: escape webs and entangles, longstrider, fly, dimention door Trickery: hide as class skill, invisibility, non-detection, confusion At first glance; artifice is nice, but not nessicary if you pick up a custom item, darkness is always nice, madness is only worth it if you're doing lots of save or die spells, death fits your theme very well, travel can help with your mobility problems. I have an image of a death cleric casting contingent animate dead, then killing their opponents allies with death touch. That's class. For me, it would be a tough call between madness, magic, and death. Spells: debuffing/counter buffing: bane, doom, desecrate, silence, bestow curse, invis purge, symbol of pain stat dmg: contagion, poison Wizard spells of use to this build: flare, touch of fatigue, chill touch, ray of enfeeblement, summon swarm, touch of idiocy, scare, pyrotechnics, ray of exhaustion, slow Makes me think that Magic domain might be nessicary to make this work. But there is the problem of all the wizard spells having low saves. The rays and touch of ideocy don't have saves though. Poisons: If you're immune to poison, the contact poisons can be great, price wise. Smear some sassone leaf residue on your hands before smacking an elf. Or terinav root. Dragon bile is really a bargin for that high dc. Inhaled and ingested poisons are not really worth it. Hard to use and/or expensive. For injury, large scorpion and giant wasp have good poisons. The other injury poisons are either too weak or too expensive. Poisonous Allies: The poison save on most summoned insects in not very intimidating, compared to the level they appear at. The viper snakes are the best for poison overall, but the vermin have their perks. Good strategy against casters and low mobility types, but not something to rely on, especially at higher levels SM I: DC 10-12, 1d3 dex or 1d2 con SM II: DC11, 1d6 con or 1d4 dex SM III: same as SMII (but also, dire weasels) SM IV: dc14 for 1d6 con or 1d6 str SM V: dc14 for 1d4 con (also, bearded devils) lesser planar ally: imp, quasit, vargouille, bearded devil Undead Allies: I could have sworn that we voted on how to figure the maxCA of an ally with both ECL and CR. However, I cannot find it anywhere. As you might have noticed, I like the build idea :rolleyes: . Enought rambling.... off to bed with me. Just going through some of the things I missed along the way. In the above list of ways to get poison immunity, you forgot to mention the Jungle Halfling as a possibility. No LA too...
TelinArtho 09-07-07, 04:47 PM	Just thinking out loud here... 4 attacks at +12 for 1d4+9 and one attack at +10 for 1d6+4 or 1 attack at +11 for 1d8+9, 3 attacks at +11 for 1d6+4 and one attack at +10 for 1d6+4 The initial one is 5% better to hit (in most cases anyway), and deals 10-13 damage (avg. 11.5) per hit - 46 dmg plus the extra attack (which is the same in both cases - so I'll ignore it. The second one deals 10-17 on the first attack (avg 13.5) and 5-10 on the next 3 (avg 7.5) for a total of 36. Maximum in the first case is 52; 47 in the second. Hmm - that's enlightening... (still working on Aquin's rebuild and needed to flesh things out...) EDIT - Still going: In the first case, I can't overcome silver/cold iron/adamantine bludgeoning DR. At DR 3/any of the above - the weapons end up being a better solution (well - with silver DR4 is probably needed)... Hmmm... Hmm - just bumping this for easy reference. 4 Attacks at +13 for 1d4+9, and one attack at +11 for 1d6+4. vs 2 Attacks +12 for 1d8+9, 3 attacks +12 for 1d6+4 and another attack +11 for 1d6+4. With boots of speed, I think attacking with weapons will be a big difference - especially as his BAB gets to 6+, 11+, etc to qualify for improve multiweapon fighting and later - greater multiweapon fighting... Of course it is pretty tempting to drop Quickdraw/Multiweapon fighting for Combat Expertise/Improved Disarm - since that would allow my character to take away anything pretty quickly... This rebuild is certainly taking longer than I expected...
Eluria 09-07-07, 04:51 PM	Just going through some of the things I missed along the way. In the above list of ways to get poison immunity, you forgot to mention the Jungle Halfling as a possibility. No LA too... Where were you a week ago, TA :mad: ... Jungle halfling is a great idea; I so rarely remember all the UA variants, we never use that in tabletop d&d. The 0 LA is huge, it's true; although there's the "dwarves are infinitely cooler than halfling" angle to consider, as well... hmm... Maybe I'll make a little brother for Wroth. Or is it possible to get refunds on the credits spent on him, given that this would be his first active week, and he's yet to actually fight [although he has been paired]? Actually a simple variant [monk abilities] jungle halfling druid would be a neat guy after the same mold; animal companion [built in ally], good mobility/dex, could hit with poisons at range, can SNA III for dire weasels, has animal growth, giant vermin, could handle animals for some dire weasel allies... could make a nice feral rabid weasel-master. how cute.
TelinArtho 09-07-07, 05:19 PM	I only came across it as I've been working through some other odd builds. I personally am not fond of the UA stuff and only use it as a last resort. If I really wanted to make a more "effective" dragon slayer though - one of the Dwarf UA variants allows a Dragon dodge bonus... I actively decided not to use it with Bulgar though and have not regretted it...
Eluria 09-07-07, 05:24 PM	Well, I love Bulgar just the way he is, so I'm glad to hear it. The Jungle halflings, while never accidentally poisoning themselves, aren't actually immune to poison, which is probably a minor difference, but I, like Vath, am looking forward to the image of the crazy duergar running up to a foe, expanding, and grappling him while smeared in contact poisons.
TelinArtho 09-07-07, 05:29 PM	Actually a simple variant [monk abilities] jungle halfling druid would be a neat guy after the same mold; animal companion [built in ally], good mobility/dex, could hit with poisons at range, can SNA III for dire weasels, has animal growth, giant vermin, could handle animals for some dire weasel allies... could make a nice feral rabid weasel-master. how cute. Actually, I was pretty fond of the Were-Dire Weasel creation that popped up some time ago... Nothing like trying to pin something that was built around grappling...
hogarth 09-07-07, 08:48 PM	I'm toying around with the idea of making a trapsmith character, but I'm wondering what sort of custom traps are allowed. What do people think of this one: Fire ant colony begins with 1d3 ant swarms, each day for four days the colony has a 50% chance of doubling in size -- when a victim falls into the nest, it does 1 pt of damage per fire ant swarm in the colony ---- DC 20 Reflex negates; Search/disable DC 16; Manual reset; CR 1 [avg damage = 1.5 x 1.5 x 1.5 x 1.5 x 2 = 10.125]) [crafted] [200/2 = 100 gp]
TelinArtho 09-07-07, 09:02 PM	Kind of a wonky mechanic to work with... but let me see here: 50% chance on each of 4 days to double in size. So at least 1 swarm, at most 24? swarms. 1-24 damage. Average damage is not linear there though - so I don't know how it would be calculated. If it is indeed 10.125 (can't vouch for whether that is correct or not), then the price seems correct.
hogarth 09-07-07, 09:08 PM	Kind of a wonky mechanic to work with... but let me see here: 50% chance on each of 4 days to double in size. So at least 1 swarm, at most 24? swarms. 1-24 damage. Average damage is not linear there though - so I don't know how it would be calculated. If it is indeed 10.125 (can't vouch for whether that is correct or not), then the price seems correct. 1d3 x 1d2 x 1d2 x 1d2 x 1d2 = 48 maximum. The average is 2 x 1.5 x 1.5 x 1.5 x 1.5 = 10.125 (for independent random variables, the mean of the product is the product of the means).
Taureus_Drakken 09-07-07, 10:36 PM	It's a Core Coliseum house rule: :eek: Well then...More reading of rules for me...:weep: Sorry about that. I guess since it wasn't something I absolutrly needed to know for my character, that I skipped over that rule, and jumped right to the PHB. ¬Taureus¬
Vathelokai 09-08-07, 12:19 AM	Question: I usually don't use allies, so I'm not to familiar with the rules. Unholy Ninja (monk4, cleric1) is thinking of picking up some undead. Being a 1st lv cleric, how does that work? Here's some hypotheticals... a) I want to grab a bunch human archer skeletons (around 10 at cr 1/3 each). Do I need to create them myself (with oil of animate dead or something)? Can I get them with credits? Can I get them through my rebuke undead ability, or is animate dead the only option? b) I want some non-standard thing that has no specified method of creation (for example, the ghost of a stirge). Can I get that? How can I get that? Also, is there a max number of things I can have (meaning a house rule max, not the max number that I can control via spell)? If I felt like it, could I own 100 skeleton warriors?
Taureus_Drakken 09-08-07, 01:57 AM	A similar question was debated about using an oil of AD to get a really powerful corpse. To answer each part of your question: A.) Regardless of what the caster level of the oil is, you can only control up to 4HD worth of undead per caster level. With that said, you could get up to 4 skeletons using oils (one oil per skeleton, as each oil is enough for one application). You could get a 5th skeleton using your rebuke ability. Again, you are limited by level in how many HD of undead you can control. So you are up to having 5 skeletons under your control. (Not 10 like you wanted, but hey, get another level of cleric, and it increases to 10 right away) B.) I believe you would need credits for thing outside the outlined options. The aforementioned instance of an undead ally was for a ha-naga corpse (look in the epic section of the SRD), it wasn't the animating part he needed the credits for, but the corpse itself. As for the max number, I don't know of one. Outside of having a huge warehouse full of your undead "minions" (they aren't followers, just replacements for your active undead) who knows. I am sure someone could come up with a number. ¬Taureus¬
whitebaron 09-08-07, 06:53 AM	Question: I usually don't use allies, so I'm not to familiar with the rules. Unholy Ninja (monk4, cleric1) is thinking of picking up some undead. Being a 1st lv cleric, how does that work? Here's some hypotheticals... a) I want to grab a bunch human archer skeletons (around 10 at cr 1/3 each). Do I need to create them myself (with oil of animate dead or something)? Can I get them with credits? Can I get them through my rebuke undead ability, or is animate dead the only option? b) I want some non-standard thing that has no specified method of creation (for example, the ghost of a stirge). Can I get that? How can I get that? Also, is there a max number of things I can have (meaning a house rule max, not the max number that I can control via spell)? If I felt like it, could I own 100 skeleton warriors? please note that the maximum number of allies you are allowed to bring at ECL5 is 3. Usually, you get minions by questing (final thing in the quest would be the rebuking, either rolling = might turn bad, or take 20 as part of quest reward - up to the questlord) . There is no maximum number to allies, but if you want undead, you'll have to be able to control them. (see taureus)
hogarth 09-08-07, 09:27 AM	please note that the maximum number of allies you are allowed to bring at ECL5 is 3. That is not correct. You can bring in more allies if they have less than CR 1 (like 9 CR 1/3 guard dogs, for instance). By the way, Vathelokai, you're probably better off with githzerai skeleton archers (or maybe half-giants if you want damage over accuracy) instead of humans.
Vathelokai 09-08-07, 10:21 AM	Sorry, I ment total added ECL and CR of 3. As for the gith, good idea. I have a couple different base creatures in mind; was just using something innocuous to get an understanding of the rules before going over the extreme examples. EDIT: :confused: , oh, you were quoting whitebarron. Far too early in the morning...
Vathelokai 09-08-07, 12:10 PM	General notice: I'm activating Psibeast next week at ECL13. Wanted to warn the ECL 11 peeps that there may be in interleague (unless she gets a monster fight) since she's the only ecl13.
whitebaron 09-08-07, 12:17 PM	@vath i wanted to say the same , so: sorry, i meant total ECL, not number of creatures. ;)
templer10 09-08-07, 12:50 PM	General notice: I'm activating Psibeast next week at ECL13. Wanted to warn the ECL 11 peeps that there may be in interleague (unless she gets a monster fight) since she's the only ecl13. OH goodie- Ill have Longshot ready and waiting Just need a teammate... p.s is Psibeast fully leveled up?
Vathelokai 09-08-07, 01:16 PM	Psibeast Just finished. Still havn't picked my contingency yet. Still need to update the page that has all the shapeshifting info. PS: looked over the lv13 monster list.... :eek: 1 Iron Golem [CR 13] 3 Formian Myrmarchs [CR 10] 3 Phrenic Bodaks [CR 10] 1 Adult Black Dragon and 4 Half-Fiend Young Black Dragons [CR 11 and 7] 3 Aboleth Ghosts [CR 9] and 3 5th-level Skum Barbarians [CR 7] 1 Wyrmling Force Dragon (epic) [CR 13] 1 Unbodied 4th-level Sorcerer/6th-level Cerebremancer [CR 13]
whitebaron 09-08-07, 02:04 PM	Psibeast Just finished. Still havn't picked my contingency yet. if you need an audit, just give a call or i guess lonewolf would do one too. ;)
Vathelokai 09-08-07, 02:09 PM	if you need an audit, just give a call or i guess lonewolf would do one too. ;) Feel free to do so. I'm pretty sure she's good, since she's only been in 3 fights and 1 campaign (which wrapped up cleanly).
Rauul 09-08-07, 02:24 PM	since i am sitting around healing... i have been giving some thoughts to a Vampire Character.. Not a Spawn.. Min level is 9 correct.. +8 la +1 original class.. Am i correct that with Create Spawn he can have followers without the leadership feat.. Also with Dominate person he can have none undead followers since the duration is 12 days.. (both requiring Miniquests) Yes i understand he would have like 0 hps.. since vampire get no Undead levels..(unlike spawn who gets 4 undead levels and No Con bonuses...) Am i correct so far?
Vathelokai 09-08-07, 02:28 PM	As far as I know, you are right on everything. Dominate person may not be able to give you allies like that. It's been brought up before, and charms are being debated over in the courtroom right now. The spawn allies; yes, you can get them with without the leadership feat. That ruling came from a couple shadow PCs a while back.
Rauul 09-08-07, 03:27 PM	Wonder if the Dominate ability as well as bard ability's can be incorporated into the community game
templer10 09-08-07, 03:36 PM	Psibeast Just finished. Still havn't picked my contingency yet. Still need to update the page that has all the shapeshifting info. PS: looked over the lv13 monster list.... :eek: 1 Adult Black Dragon and 4 Half-Fiend Young Black Dragons [CR 11 and 7] 1 Wyrmling Force Dragon (epic) [CR 13] 13] those 4 dragons- 700+ OF hp.... Yes that's Winable.... And that force dragon is just.... :OMG!
Vathelokai 09-08-07, 03:41 PM	At least I have ego whip...:rolleyes:
Rauul 09-08-07, 03:46 PM	At least I have ego whip...:rolleyes: Ego whip on a force Dragon... Can i watch as Psibeast gets made into a thin red mist?
MindWandererB 09-08-07, 03:56 PM	I'm toying around with the idea of making a trapsmith character, but I'm wondering what sort of custom traps are allowed. What do people think of this one: Fire ant colony begins with 1d3 ant swarms, each day for four days the colony has a 50% chance of doubling in size -- when a victim falls into the nest, it does 1 pt of damage per fire ant swarm in the colony ---- DC 20 Reflex negates; Search/disable DC 16; Manual reset; CR 1 [avg damage = 1.5 x 1.5 x 1.5 x 1.5 x 2 = 10.125]) [crafted] [200/2 = 100 gp] Hmmm... I'm too lazy to test that the mathematical way, but my Excel skills are still in top form, so I made a table with some simple algorthims: Start D1 D2 D3 D4 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 2 2 1 1 1 2 4 1 1 2 2 2 1 1 2 2 4 1 1 2 4 4 1 1 2 4 8 1 2 2 2 2 1 2 2 2 4 1 2 2 4 4 1 2 2 4 8 1 2 4 4 4 1 2 4 4 8 1 2 4 8 8 1 2 4 8 16 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 4 2 2 2 4 4 2 2 2 4 8 2 2 4 4 4 2 2 4 4 8 2 2 4 8 8 2 2 4 8 16 2 4 4 4 4 2 4 4 4 8 2 4 4 8 8 2 4 4 8 16 2 4 8 8 8 2 4 8 8 16 2 4 8 16 16 2 4 8 16 32 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 6 3 3 3 6 6 3 3 3 6 12 3 3 6 6 6 3 3 6 6 12 3 3 6 12 12 3 3 6 12 24 3 6 6 6 6 3 6 6 6 12 3 6 6 12 12 3 6 6 12 24 3 6 12 12 12 3 6 12 12 24 3 6 12 24 24 3 6 12 24 48 Average 10.125 Median 8The average is, of course, correct, but look at that distribution. Highly likely to be insignificant, with a chance of a big payoff. Since I get veto power, I'd exercise it here. It's a neat concept, but 1) it's a fairly large burden on the pitlord, and 2) things that either do nothing (typically about 8 points--the median is a better measure of central tendency in a highly skewed distribution, like this one) or end a fight right off the bat are not good for the spirit of the game.
Vathelokai 09-08-07, 03:56 PM	Ego whip on a force Dragon... Can i watch as Psibeast gets made into a thin red mist? Hrmmmm...Yes!:D I've been thinking these through to see how feaseable it is to beat these monsters. I think I can take the Iron golem if I change to a Ghaele (good fly, beats all DR). Lets see if I can come up with a plan for that force dragon...
Rauul 09-08-07, 04:00 PM	Hrmmmm...Yes!:D I've been thinking these through to see how feaseable it is to beat these monsters. I think I can take the Iron golem if I change to a Ghaele (good fly, beats all DR). Lets see if I can come up with a plan for that force dragon... Surrender comes to Mind.. or maybe.. PRAY ALOT.. or you could go after that 12 touch AC
templer10 09-08-07, 04:03 PM	Hrmmmm...Yes!:D I've been thinking these through to see how feaseable it is to beat these monsters. I think I can take the Iron golem if I change to a Ghaele (good fly, beats all DR). Lets see if I can come up with a plan for that force dragon... OR get some other ECL 11 (exept me) to get off his ass and activate a char
Rauul 09-08-07, 04:04 PM	Hmmm... I'm too lazy to test that the mathematical way, but my Excel skills are still in top form, so I made a table with some simple algorthims: The average is, of course, correct, but look at that distribution. Highly likely to be insignificant, with a chance of a big payoff. Since I get veto power, I'd exercise it here. It's a neat concept, but 1) it's a fairly large burden on the pitlord, and 2) things that either do nothing (typically about 8 points--the median is a better measure of central tendency in a highly skewed distribution, like this one) or end a fight right off the bat are not good for the spirit of the game. Were trap rules ever implemented from When ToK and Cat were working on them Traps would be a nice balancing factor with Rouges.. noone uses it because when ToK tried there were some serious arguements..
Rauul 09-08-07, 04:05 PM	OR get some other ECL 11 (exept me) to get off his ass and activate a char Most of the rest are on a Quest.. or they don't want to activate them..
MindWandererB 09-08-07, 04:25 PM	Were trap rules ever implemented from When ToK and Cat were working on them Traps would be a nice balancing factor with Rouges.. noone uses it because when ToK tried there were some serious arguements.. They did end up coming to a decision, and the rules are in the NPC Services section. I see the GM veto bit isn't in there anymore, and I'd rather not have to implement it, so please don't make me do so with a crazy trap.
lonewolf 09-08-07, 05:01 PM	OR get some other ECL 11 (exept me) to get off his ass and activate a char I wont activate The Chameleon as long as there is a chance of 50% or greater to be paired against any touchsight user. Sorry, but hes not suicidal.
Vathelokai 09-08-07, 05:34 PM	OR get some other ECL 11 (exept me) to get off his ass and activate a char Looks like Asran, Aerryl, Valen, or Loddick. Asran's unlikely, but the others are a possibility. Aerryl and Loddick have been updated recently.
Vathelokai 09-08-07, 05:49 PM	Surrender comes to Mind.. or maybe.. PRAY ALOT.. or you could go after that 12 touch AC Let's see... Size/Type: dragon (force) Hit Dice: 20 (230 hp) Initiative: +0 Speed: 60, fly 250(poor) Armor Class: 31 (-2 size, +4 deflection, +19 natural), touch 12, flat 31 Base Attack/Grapple: +20/+38 Attack: bite +28, other +23 Full Attack: bite/claw/claw/wing/wing/tail +28/+23(x5) 2d8+10/2d6+5/2d6+5/1d8+5/1d8+5/2d6+15 Space/Reach: Huge 15 ft, 10 ft reach with bite Special Attacks: crush 2d8+15 Special Qualities: DR 10/magic, deflecting force, immune to force, SR 24, true dragon traits Saves: Fort +17, Ref +12, Will +16 Abilities: Str 31, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 18, Wis 19, Cha 18 Skills: Spot +0, Listen +0, Hide +0, Move Silent +0, Feats: 7 Alignment: usually neutral Challenge Rating: 13 Treasure: 35,000 gp (3,500 of that may be expendables) Breath weapon 5d12 force cone, 50 ft., reflex DC25 for half Frightful presence, 30 ft radius, will DC 24 or shaken for 4d6 rounds Crush: A crush attack affects as many creatures as can fit under the dragon's body. Creatures in the affected area must succeed on a Reflex save (DC equal to that of the dragon's breath weapon) or be pinned, automatically taking bludgeoning damage during the next round unless the dragon moves off them. If the dragon chooses to maintain the pin, treat it as a normal grapple attack. Pinned opponents take damage from the crush each round if they don't escape. Caster Level 3 (sorcerer) spells known 6 cantrip, 5 lv one spells per day 5 cantrip, 4 lv one This one would be soooo dependent on the map. I'm thinking some combo of ghaele and avoral might provide enough dmg, defense, and healing to make it. Maybe with some leonal for melee or a ravid to animate a house. Would be tough, but it looks like I'd have to eat throught 250 hp.
hogarth 09-08-07, 05:53 PM	It's a neat concept, but 1) it's a fairly large burden on the pitlord, and 2) things that either do nothing (typically about 8 points--the median is a better measure of central tendency in a highly skewed distribution, like this one) or end a fight right off the bat are not good for the spirit of the game. Well, I guess I can always stick with the tried-and-true "Doorknob Smeared with Contact Poison" from the DMG (DC 13 Fort save or be paralyzed for 2d6 minutes).
Eluria 09-08-07, 07:39 PM	Were trap rules ever implemented from When ToK and Cat were working on them Traps would be a nice balancing factor with Rouges.. noone uses it because when ToK tried there were some serious arguements.. They actually seem kinda fun; I know Hogarth's looking at using some, and the character I just posted is going to be using traps as well.
Rauul 09-08-07, 08:34 PM	They actually seem kinda fun; I know Hogarth's looking at using some, and the character I just posted is going to be using traps as well. Was thinking about a Dwarf Vampire Thief.. Stone Mechanical Traps.. hmm
Rauul 09-08-07, 09:36 PM	Looking over vampires still... looks like the true power of a vampire are the spawns.. At ecl 10, can take in 2 cr 4 spawns.. (3 slams a rd for -4 levels a round) Can take the 2d6 rds to summon wolves.. and get hit by the Delay penalty if the pitlord rolls a 10+
hogarth 09-08-07, 10:04 PM	They actually seem kinda fun; I know Hogarth's looking at using some, and the character I just posted is going to be using traps as well. They sound kind of fun in theory, but the first time I tried it I was a bit disappointed. My trap guy fought two battles where he was the attacker (so the trap was useless) and then I retired him (because the character wasn't that great to begin with).
TelinArtho 09-08-07, 11:34 PM	My trap character had a similar experience 3 fights total: 2 where he was the attacker. In the other - the trap went off, dealt slightly above avg damage and I still lost... That said - I've been idly working on a redesign of him (along with the other 6+ builds in the works...)
Vathelokai 09-09-07, 12:25 PM	It's finaly been decided that the guild game is come to an end, and the suggestion was put forth that there be a campaign to wrap it up in good style. So, I'm asking everyone if they would be interested in a campaign. Here's the tenative details (all subject to change based on interest): Campaignlord: Vathelokai Goal: The guilds depose the council and take over the city Location: Entirely inside the City of Gladius Guild Affiliation: Not Required Alignment and Background: Any, with an interest in seeing a corrupt government destroyed Durration: Either 6 or 9 encounters (basicly 2 or 3 fight cycles) ECL: 5 +/- 1 EL: Will match the PCs ECL exactly; meaning that if one of the PCs levels up after a fight, one of the oponents for the next fight will increase in CR simultaneously. Max PCs: All who show interest (possibly 6 as a loose cap) Crafting: There is the potential to have one full day off for healing/crafting in the middle of the campaign. Shopping: There is the potential to buy things between fights, depending on the circumstances. I'll be making an ambitious effort to include as many of the running plot lines in Gladius as possible.
Vathelokai 09-09-07, 12:35 PM	OR get some other ECL 11 (exept me) to get off his ass and activate a char I've been thinking, and there is another option..... Challenge: You can challenge a specific gladiator. If he accepts, you and your opponent have to spend 1° which is by default payed by the challenger. One player may take over the credit cost for the other one, if he desires. If you have challenged someone, these characters will fight for sure. Challenge Fights: If you want to challenge a specific gladiator, or have a special request (like a team battle), you can request it. You have to discuss this with the character you'd like to challenge in advance. If he agrees, send a PM to Pitlords and also put it into your title line. This special request cost 1 credit for each gladiator involved because they know in advance whom they are fighting. By default, the challenger takes over the credit cost for the other player(s) but it may be shared too. A side-effect is that you will be paired for sure with this gladiator. If all parties agree, the challenge fight can have special house rules but they must be in line with the Core Coliseum and D&D rules. If you like, Psibeast could fight Longshot and a random CR11 monster.
templer10 09-09-07, 01:06 PM	It's finaly been decided that the guild game is come to an end, and the suggestion was put forth that there be a campaign to wrap it up in good style. So, I'm asking everyone if they would be interested in a campaign. Here's the tenative details (all subject to change based on interest): Campaignlord: Vathelokai Goal: The guilds depose the council and take over the city Location: Entirely inside the City of Gladius Guild Affiliation: Not Required Alignment and Background: Any, with an interest in seeing a corrupt government destroyed Durration: Either 6 or 9 encounters (basicly 2 or 3 fight cycles) ECL: 5 +/- 1 EL: Will match the PCs ECL exactly; meaning that if one of the PCs levels up after a fight, one of the oponents for the next fight will increase in CR simultaneously. Max PCs: All who show interest (possibly 6 as a loose cap) Crafting: There is the potential to have one full day off for healing/crafting in the middle of the campaign. Shopping: There is the potential to buy things between fights, depending on the circumstances. I'll be making an ambitious effort to include as many of the running plot lines in Gladius as possible. Is the ECL Thing set in Stone- since if there's room for Be flexible Lady Liara The midget with the Big lance would like to volunetter (ill write background for one of my chars - never thouth that would happen...) She's ECL 6 at the moment But fairly likely to level to ECL 7 if she comes second or first in the FFA she's in this week. her Job is fairly Obvios - She hit things very very hard.... I can also make something new- iam leaning towards Sorcerer since i like to Blow stuff up...
templer10 09-09-07, 01:11 PM	I've been thinking, and there is another option..... If you like, Psibeast could fight Longshot and a random CR11 monster. Do i get to equip and write tactics for said monster?
lonewolf 09-09-07, 01:15 PM	Do i get to equip and write tactics for said monster? I would guess that the pitlord equips it and you write team tactics.
templer10 09-09-07, 01:18 PM	I've been thinking, and there is another option..... If you like, Psibeast could fight Longshot and a random CR11 monster. Ill take you up on that offer- as long as said random monster is not in the mindless/animal intelligence RAnge - i need something to work with and Those 77 pps of PSibeast are scary.
Eluria 09-09-07, 01:23 PM	My trap character had a similar experience 3 fights total: 2 where he was the attacker. In the other - the trap went off, dealt slightly above avg damage and I still lost... That said - I've been idly working on a redesign of him (along with the other 6+ builds in the works...) That's why this attempt will have attack skill packages as well, and so neither pairing will be a disappointment.
lonewolf 09-09-07, 01:24 PM	Ill take you up on that offer- as long as said random monster is not in the mindless/animal intelligence RAnge - i need something to work with and Those 77 pps of PSibeast are scary. Sorry pal, but if its a random monster you cannot wait until after the monster roll if you want to accept the challenge or not. :rolleyes:
templer10 09-09-07, 01:26 PM	Sorry pal, but if its a random monster you cannot wait until after the monster roll if you want to accept the challenge or not. :rolleyes: Actually in a challange fight you can decide on Any house rule you want - and it's a fairly reasonable one.
Eluria 09-09-07, 01:27 PM	It's finaly been decided that the guild game is come to an end, and the suggestion was put forth that there be a campaign to wrap it up in good style. So, I'm asking everyone if they would be interested in a campaign. Here's the tenative details (all subject to change based on interest): Campaignlord: Vathelokai Goal: The guilds depose the council and take over the city Location: Entirely inside the City of Gladius Guild Affiliation: Not Required Alignment and Background: Any, with an interest in seeing a corrupt government destroyed Durration: Either 6 or 9 encounters (basicly 2 or 3 fight cycles) ECL: 5 +/- 1 EL: Will match the PCs ECL exactly; meaning that if one of the PCs levels up after a fight, one of the oponents for the next fight will increase in CR simultaneously. Max PCs: All who show interest (possibly 6 as a loose cap) Crafting: There is the potential to have one full day off for healing/crafting in the middle of the campaign. Shopping: There is the potential to buy things between fights, depending on the circumstances. I'll be making an ambitious effort to include as many of the running plot lines in Gladius as possible. I'd love to participate in a campaign; reading them has been one of the funner things [actually, I started participating in CoCo after reading the Liberation of Achos]. Wroth is evil, and slow, but would definately be interested in governmental collapse (unguilded).
lonewolf 09-09-07, 01:29 PM	Actually in a challange fight you can decide on Any house rule you want - and it's a fairly reasonable one. youre right. I should have read up on that. :embarrass
Vathelokai 09-09-07, 01:40 PM	Do i get to equip and write tactics for said monster? Ill take you up on that offer- as long as said random monster is not in the mindless/animal intelligence RAnge - i need something to work with and Those 77 pps of PSibeast are scary. How about this.... Random map. Monster is rolled randomly, but reroll if mindless. If it's animal int, treat it as int 3 (you can give it basic commands before the fight, but it's still dumb as a brick). Pitlord equips it. You get monster knowledge based on your int (as normal for monster fights) and write team tactics from there. If the monster is intelegent and has a mutual language, it can explain it's capabilities. Fight is in a seperate thread (miniquest style). If we get it hashed out and approved, we could start early :cool: NOTE: edited a bit, please re-read
lonewolf 09-09-07, 01:42 PM	How about this.... Random map. Monster is rolled randomly, but reroll if mindless. If it's animal int, treat it as int 3 (you can give it basic commands before the fight, but it's still dumb as a brick). Fight is in a seperate thread (miniquest style). If we get it hashed out and approved, we could start early :cool: I would volunteer to pitlord this if you guys want me to.
templer10 09-09-07, 01:55 PM	I would volunteer to pitlord this if you guys want me to. Sure If vath dont mind - otherwise - iam okay with animal In i guess - But i get to Know what Monster i got and - do tactics same as a normaly Fight and some means of communication is arranges (otherwise i cant talk to 50% of the things) and that's how it's normally done in a Team up with monsters as far as i know. to make it fair- you get to see the monsters Sheet like a normal gladiator.
Vathelokai 09-09-07, 01:58 PM	Sure If vath dont mind - otherwise - iam okay with animal In i guess - But i get to Know what Monster i got and - do tactics same as a normaly Fight and some means of communication is arranges (otherwise i cant talk to 50% of the things) and that's how it's normally done in a Team up with monsters as far as i know. to make it fair- you get to see the monsters Sheet like a normal gladiator. I can agree to that. Also, fine with lonewolf running it. I would like to see it in a seperate thread though, but if you want I can write tactics.
templer10 09-09-07, 02:02 PM	I can agree to that. Also, fine with lonewolf running it. I would like to see it in a seperate thread though, but if you want I can write tactics. Sure sperate thread it is: so in conclusion rules Are: 1)Lonewolf equipt it, i control it Fully - i get means of Normal communications with it if needed. 2)WE both get to see Monster's sheet prefight 3)reroll on anything mindless. 4)Seperate thread Fight. oh and if we get something with "usuall spells/powers" we use that. that's about it? p.s - what about lady liara Or a newly made Sorcerer (ECL 6 proably) for the campaign?
Eamane 09-09-07, 02:28 PM	<waves good-bye to the guild system> While I was never interested in the overcomplicated, arcane and incredibly slow mechanics of guilds; the RP factor they provided went a long way to keep me interested in COCO, I hope that what, if anything replaces them can maintain that interest. Hopefully without the red tape and difficulty of managing that lead to the demise of EYE and LOY. (Crazy vigilantes, their pets and Aristocrats, thou art missed) ECL 5 though eh? That is likely to put it out of my reach, since I was planning on spending the 5 credits I have on the other campaign that's about to start. But maybe if I have a bunch of credits near this one's start date I'll make a fresh character. Xeph Ranger5 into Pyrokineticist anyone? I think it would work well.
Vathelokai 09-09-07, 02:30 PM	Sure sperate thread it is: so in conclusion rules Are: 1)Lonewolf equipt it, i control it Fully - i get means of Normal communications with it if needed. 2)WE both get to see Monster's sheet prefight 3)reroll on anything mindless. 4)Seperate thread Fight. oh and if we get something with "usuall spells/powers" we use that. that's about it? p.s - what about lady liara Or a newly made Sorcerer (ECL 6 proably) for the campaign? Agreed. Liara would be good. I probably won't be able to judge who 'wont be good' until I have more applicants. If I need to increase the ECL to 6-7 that's fine with me.
Sjiggie 09-09-07, 02:41 PM	Valanthe is also interested. Currently he is the main defender of CEF against the Denth attacks (he almost finished his 3FC with only Denth interception is this weeks fight where resolved). Currently he is ECL 6. As a paladin he is Lawful Good so that might give some troubles if some Evil guys from the EHTC would join the campaign but maybe we can work around it as we share a common goal in the campaign.
templer10 09-09-07, 02:42 PM	Liara would be good. I probably won't be able to judge who 'wont be good' until I have more applicants. If I need to increase the ECL to 6-7 that's fine with me. you got a more or less start date in mind? Ill need to buy some campaign type stuff Before then
Vathelokai 09-09-07, 02:43 PM	ECL 5 though eh? That is likely to put it out of my reach, since I was planning on spending the 5 credits I have on the other campaign that's about to start. But maybe if I have a bunch of credits near this one's start date I'll make a fresh character. It will definitely be a few weeks. And if your short on credits, we may be able to work something out. In the past, players have been allowed to go negative one or two credits and make them up later. Sometimes players will give out a couple credits to the needy player. It's usually frowned upon because there have been problems with someone ex-players getting a couple free credits to get into a quest, then disappearing.
Vathelokai 09-09-07, 02:44 PM	you got a more or less start date in mind? Ill need to buy some campaign type stuff Before then I was thinking 1-4 weeks so everyone could finish their cycles and craft. That will become a fixed date in a few more days and I know who needs how much time. I'd like the players to be in top shape at start.
templer10 09-09-07, 02:57 PM	I was thinking 1-4 weeks so everyone could finish their cycles and craft. That will become a fixed date in a few more days and I know who needs how much time. I'd like the players to be in top shape at start. Okay Since liara is finsihing her cycle this week.
Vathelokai 09-09-07, 02:59 PM	PM sent out for the challenge match. I suspect we can start as soon and MWB gives the OK.
templer10 09-09-07, 03:03 PM	PM sent out for the challenge match. I suspect we can start as soon and MWB gives the OK. YEas just let me edit in this week stuff.
Erithmu 09-09-07, 03:39 PM	@Vath: you give me such a good reason to actually try to build a dual caster ... Consider a N Wiz3/Cleric3 is interested in seeing what will happen. I probably won't build him unless he gets accepted into the mix, but if moving in that direction I can post a draft of him.
templer10 09-09-07, 03:47 PM	PM sent out for the challenge match. I suspect we can start as soon and MWB gives the OK. Longshot is ready.
TheMagister 09-09-07, 04:57 PM	I was thinking 1-4 weeks so everyone could finish their cycles and craft. That will become a fixed date in a few more days and I know who needs how much time. I'd like the players to be in top shape at start. The Battlesong Duet? They're ECL 6 each. TM
templer10 09-09-07, 05:03 PM	The Battlesong Duet? They're ECL 6 each. TM That will get a Woot from me- That will give us another tank and a Buffer/healer party face.
Vathelokai 09-09-07, 05:49 PM	The Battlesong Duet? They're ECL 6 each. TM Would McJarvis be in to play? I havn't seen him around in a bit.
TelinArtho 09-09-07, 06:07 PM	That's why this attempt will have attack skill packages as well, and so neither pairing will be a disappointment. My character had those same skill packages at ECL3... In both attacking fights, his opponents did not have allies (so assassinate did nothing), and in one of them - he didn't ambush the other because they both had the ambush package (he had a slightly higher sense motive, I had a slightly higher bluff if I remember correctly). I like the idea of the packages, but in order to get consistent success with them - you will have to be pretty excessive and even then - the benefits may be limited on the opponents you get. As an aside, I burglarized all three opponents, but none of them had expendables...
Eluria 09-09-07, 08:21 PM	My character had those same skill packages at ECL3... In both attacking fights, his opponents did not have allies (so assassinate did nothing), and in one of them - he didn't ambush the other because they both had the ambush package (he had a slightly higher sense motive, I had a slightly higher bluff if I remember correctly). I like the idea of the packages, but in order to get consistent success with them - you will have to be pretty excessive and even then - the benefits may be limited on the opponents you get. As an aside, I burglarized all three opponents, but none of them had expendables... That sounds like just awful luck. I'm thinking of giving it at least a try; does anyone mind glancing at Ephemerelda and making some suggestions? I feel my communal collaborative efforts go better than going it alone. It is doable to use a PW crafted Dorje of Chameleon when that power is an Egoist (lvl2) power, and thus on my list, correct? Otherwise, any thoughts on the attack/damage capabilities? I feel the low hp are a burden [but should be able to vigor each fight to at least be decent], and the damage is mediocre, depending [can do ranged touch attacks for 3d6+2d6 psi shot but bad concentration skill, so hard to re-focus, +1d6 possible sneak attack, but not optimal hide/MS...]. I'm wondering if the phrenic is even worth it; without it, could start ECL3 and have 5 ranks in the attack/defend skill packages. But the power resistance and PLA's are awesome, and the stat bonuses can't be beat. Any thoughts?
hogarth 09-09-07, 08:33 PM	My thoughts: First, the price of the Crystal Shard dorje is wrong; according to the CoCo interpretation, a 3 pp augmented power is treated as a 2nd-level power for pricing purposes an ML 3 dorje of Crystal Shard would cost 4,500 gp, not 2,250. Second, even with 5 hp worth of Vigor you will have a tough time surviving. Phrenic is not going to be super-useful now (although the PR is nice), but later on it might be O.K. Are you planning on focusing on rogue or psion? That sounds like just awful luck. I'm thinking of giving it at least a try; does anyone mind glancing at Ephemerelda and making some suggestions? I feel my communal collaborative efforts go better than going it alone. It is doable to use a PW crafted Dorje of Chameleon when that power is an Egoist (lvl2) power, and thus on my list, correct? Otherwise, any thoughts on the attack/damage capabilities? I feel the low hp are a burden [but should be able to vigor each fight to at least be decent], and the damage is mediocre, depending [can do ranged touch attacks for 3d6+2d6 psi shot but bad concentration skill, so hard to re-focus, +1d6 possible sneak attack, but not optimal hide/MS...]. I'm wondering if the phrenic is even worth it; without it, could start ECL3 and have 5 ranks in the attack/defend skill packages. But the power resistance and PLA's are awesome, and the stat bonuses can't be beat. Any thoughts?
Eluria 09-09-07, 08:51 PM	Oooh, you're right about the dorje; I'll have to change that to ML2. Which makes the lame damage output even worse, and the low HP are still a huge problem. I was planning on mainly rogue; was thinking rogue/psion/rogue/psion/rogue/assassin, or rogue/psion/rogue/cleric [magic, X]/rogue, for the ability to use all wands of cleric, wizard, and psionic dorjes. but not entirely sold on anything. The "wand of produce flame, sneak attack with psionic shot" seems nice, but i actually hadn't thought out hiding with a big ball of fire on your hand... seems hard. Mainly I was interested in trying to have someone able to use traps and attack packages, and thought this was an interesting potential way to do it... but i don't want to be otherwise atrocious :) dropping Phrenic is one way to go, but honestly the +'s are huge in terms of getting so many skills up to a decent modifier, and eventually the PR and PLAs are just awesome.
SauroGrenom 09-09-07, 10:05 PM	Phrenic template is a very well balanced template in the mid and low levels. There's a bunch of powers, some very good defensive powers and a hand full of nice offensive ones. The most valuable defensive powers are defensive precognition and empty mind. Force screen comes in handy once in a while, and when you hit ECL11 Intellect fortress is awesome. The PR is also very good. Offensively all you really get is mind thrust. There are some others on the list, but they are basically pointless since the save DC's are low or the effects aren't all that great. Energy current is cool, but it requires concentration, so that's limited in it's utility. At the end with 19HD you get ultrablast, but that's Epic levels... so you'll never see that in CoCo. In exchange for all that good stuff, you suffer all the bad of a +2 LA. ALso all the damaging abilities are mind affecting powers, so there are lots of creatures immune to the damage. So mostly the phrenic template is a defensive measure barely worth the LA. In general it's very hard to swing it at low levels. Once you hit ECL8 or so, then you see lycanthropes, and the phrenic template begins to be less of a problem.
SauroGrenom 09-09-07, 10:54 PM	I just realized that the Phrenic template would rock on a paladin... The high Cha bonus and Wis bonus are just what the doctor ordered to help deal with MAD, and about half the offensive powers are designed with short range or low will save DC's. The paladin will be up close and personal with low will save guys, and he'll have other ways of dealing with high save DC guys...hmmm.
hogarth 09-09-07, 10:58 PM	I just realized that the Phrenic template would rock on a paladin... The high Cha bonus and Wis bonus are just what the doctor ordered to help deal with MAD, and about half the offensive powers are designed with short range or low will save DC's. The paladin will be up close and personal with low will save guys, and he'll have other ways of dealing with high save DC guys...hmmm. You can take a look at Erithmu's character Shadowsong for an example.
Zevox 09-10-07, 12:45 AM	I just realized that the Phrenic template would rock on a paladin... The high Cha bonus and Wis bonus are just what the doctor ordered to help deal with MAD, and about half the offensive powers are designed with short range or low will save DC's. The paladin will be up close and personal with low will save guys, and he'll have other ways of dealing with high save DC guys...hmmm. Plus of course the defensive powers that boost AC, an essential for a combat-oriented class (that freely-augmented Force Screen is just awesome for a Paladin wielding a two-handed weapon). I've had a Phrenic Paladin sitting around a word document in my computer for quite a while - thought it was basically custom-designed for them ever since I first saw it. Maybe I'll actually activate him soon - the upper leagues are pretty dull right now, so I'm not getting much action there, and I'll need to stop using Kathren until I can afford the 10 credits for Human Paragon for her next level up too. 'Course I'd have to bring him down to level 3 instead of the 4 I wanted, but that'll just make it all the more challenging. Zevox
Rauul 09-10-07, 12:51 AM	It's finaly been decided that the guild game is come to an end, and the suggestion was put forth that there be a campaign to wrap it up in good style. So, I'm asking everyone if they would be interested in a campaign. Here's the tenative details (all subject to change based on interest): Campaignlord: Vathelokai Goal: The guilds depose the council and take over the city Location: Entirely inside the City of Gladius Guild Affiliation: Not Required Alignment and Background: Any, with an interest in seeing a corrupt government destroyed Durration: Either 6 or 9 encounters (basicly 2 or 3 fight cycles) ECL: 5 +/- 1 EL: Will match the PCs ECL exactly; meaning that if one of the PCs levels up after a fight, one of the oponents for the next fight will increase in CR simultaneously. Max PCs: All who show interest (possibly 6 as a loose cap) Crafting: There is the potential to have one full day off for healing/crafting in the middle of the campaign. Shopping: There is the potential to buy things between fights, depending on the circumstances. I'll be making an ambitious effort to include as many of the running plot lines in Gladius as possible. oh oh oh... the Shadow wants in Bad.. Especially with that Goal :) is ecl 5 1200 xp to Assassin/Leadership level...
Erithmu 09-10-07, 12:52 AM	Hrum ... all this talk ... I forgot I had Shadowsong in the back burner ... might be time for him to make a reappearance. Vath: I think I'll put Shadowsong forward on this crazy thing you are putting together.
Rauul 09-10-07, 01:00 AM	Hrum ... all this talk ... I forgot I had Shadowsong in the back burner ... might be time for him to make a reappearance. Vath: I think I'll put Shadowsong forward on this crazy thing you are putting together. Oh oh a Paladin to play with... a Paladin of Shadows.. ohhh he worships Shadow .... :) :plotting: :dancin: :ayyyy!: :heehee EDIT=>Well 4 broken fingers put me -7 credits... so guess I can count Shadow out... Good luck Vath.. i can read it anyways :)
Eamane 09-10-07, 01:24 AM	It will definitely be a few weeks. And if your short on credits, we may be able to work something out. In the past, players have been allowed to go negative one or two credits and make them up later. Sometimes players will give out a couple credits to the needy player. It's usually frowned upon because there have been problems with someone ex-players getting a couple free credits to get into a quest, then disappearing. I would like that, but I'll probably be more than one or two short. Though, it is 5 + or -, eh? If an ECL 4 would be eligible I have two characters that would work; or as for starting as scratch goes, coughing up 10 credits for a brand new ECL 4 + campaign cost is much easier than 15 for ECL 5 + entry. Xeph Ranger at 2 levels away from pyro would still work, though a tad less interesting than one about to break into the class. Lets see what builds I have lying around <rummages> An aranea, but that's ECL 6.. A couple of phrenics, but we already have one.. A dwarven unarmed fighter (Not monk, fighter {Well okay, he's an ex-monk. But he wears plate mail!}) though I don't want to be unoptimized for such a 'serious' campaign. Hmm. Not as many as I thought, I made most of my ideas into ECL 3 characters already ^_^ As far as monstrous goes, a Dretch would be interesting, but probably wouldn't go over well with the Paladin. Deep Gnomes are cool. But infinitely more fragile than even Phrenics. COCO has already seen a Krenshar character and a Worg character; don't need more pets getting uppity at this time, I suspect ^_^ Hmm. Yeah, I'll probably go with the ranger after all. Versatile full BAB fighters are never a bad thing, eh? EDIT: Although, now that I remember my dwarf, I'm compelled to project an ECL 4 version. Mmm. Full-plate unarmed strikes. Gauntlet to the FACE! Wee.
lonewolf 09-10-07, 06:04 AM	@MWB: Any news about the links to the old battles threads? I wanted to update my audited characters, but I need those old battles to correct everything.
lonewolf 09-10-07, 06:24 AM	I want to get an ethereal Mount for Samuel and was wondering how that would work. The ethereal Plane has no gravity. Does that mean that every creature can fly there? Do flying creatures still need to spend double their move to rise? Do they still double their speed when descending? Any other rules that I should think about? And is there any volunteer questlord for samuels Miniquest for an ethereal Handle Animal Ally?(type of mount subject to the answers to my questions)
whitebaron 09-10-07, 07:55 AM	I want to get an ethereal Mount for Samuel and was wondering how that would work. The ethereal Plane has no gravity. Does that mean that every creature can fly there? Do flying creatures still need to spend double their move to rise? Do they still double their speed when descending? Any other rules that I should think about? And is there any volunteer questlord for samuels Miniquest for an ethereal Handle Animal Ally?(type of mount subject to the answers to my questions) i'd volunteer... An ethereal creature is invisible, insubstantial, and capable of moving in any direction, even up or down, albeit at half normal speed. As an insubstantial creature, you can move through solid objects, including living creatures. so i'd say, it spends half its move moving up and down, but the creature needs not have a fly-speed. (btw: this could be interpreted differently, but i guess the vertical speed should remain the same and not halved -> the commas don't give a clear shot on this. ) just don't get a ghostly riding dog, will you? :)
hogarth 09-10-07, 08:27 AM	My two bits on ethereal movement: I think that up and down movement should not receive any bonus or penalty. However, flying creatures still need to be concerned with maneuverability (although the stall speed shouldn't matter, IMO) whereas walking creatures don't.
lonewolf 09-10-07, 08:28 AM	Actually I think its gotta be a wolf. Its the fastest medium sized animal I can find at the moment and I can still get some customized "Horseshoes of speed" for it. If the wolf cannot fly, its gonna be a hippogriff.
hogarth 09-10-07, 09:20 AM	Actually I think its gotta be a wolf. Its the fastest medium sized animal I can find at the moment and I can still get some customized "Horseshoes of speed" for it. If the wolf cannot fly, its gonna be a hippogriff. A deinonychus is faster and sneakier than a wolf. Personally, I'd go with an intelligent mount like a pegasus, since you could order it to do complex things with a free action.
lonewolf 09-10-07, 09:32 AM	A deinonychus is faster and sneakier than a wolf. Personally, I'd go with an intelligent mount like a pegasus, since you could order it to do complex things with a free action. Since I want to gain the mount with Handle Animal and not buy it, Intelligent mounts are unfortunately out. But thanks for the deinonychus! It is incorrectly marked as beeing large in the Handle animal table and I missed it because of that. @WB: Lets call him a clawfoot, ok? :P
hogarth 09-10-07, 10:00 AM	Since I want to gain the mount with Handle Animal and not buy it, Intelligent mounts are unfortunately out. I guess I just don't understand how getting a deinonychus with Horseshoes of Speed (move 90', cost 3,000 gp, dumb) is better than buying a pegasus (move 120', cost 3,000 gp, intelligent).
lonewolf 09-10-07, 10:03 AM	You´ve got a point there. Now the remaining question is if a small character can ride a large mount? I somehow dont find the rules for that.
hogarth 09-10-07, 10:05 AM	You´ve got a point there. Now the remaining question is if a small character can ride a large mount? I somehow dont find the rules for that. There are several Small characters who do so (Elrick Flamebrother and Istima Telarc, for instance).
whitebaron 09-10-07, 10:35 AM	Since I want to gain the mount with Handle Animal and not buy it, Intelligent mounts are unfortunately out. @WB: Lets call him a clawfoot, ok? :P 1: i don't know if you can get any ethereal animal via handle animal - this will have to be an elder decision. there are not so many templates that let you get ethereal, but maybe there is some sort of custom rule you could use. 2: actually, its carver. clawfoot=velociraptor, non-core. You´ve got a point there. Now the remaining question is if a small character can ride a large mount? I somehow dont find the rules for that. yes, you can. only difference: you can't use some of the ride tricks, like fast mount/dismount (which is not an issue since you'll probably start mounted in the arena anyway).
templer10 09-10-07, 10:36 AM	You´ve got a point there. Now the remaining question is if a small character can ride a large mount? I somehow dont find the rules for that. Size doesnt matter as long as you are at least one size category smaller then the mount, the only diffrense is that you cant Quickmount/dismout from a mount larget then you by more then 1 category.
whitebaron 09-10-07, 10:48 AM	two questions: *) how do you do multiline rolls in the coco roller? (http://www.hwx.it/wizards.com/index.php) *) weekly prison post is missing quite long now...
templer10 09-10-07, 10:58 AM	two questions: *) how do you do multiline rolls in the coco roller? (http://www.hwx.it/wizards.com/index.php) *) weekly prison post is missing quite long now... Multiline? dont know what that means but if you mean several Rolls done in the same time - so called "batch rolling" put ";" between them- i.e. 1d20+2;1d20+5;1d20+9 etc
whitebaron 09-10-07, 11:03 AM	Multiline? dont know what that means but if you mean several Rolls done in the same time - so called "batch rolling" put ";" between them- i.e. 1d20+2;1d20+5;1d20+9 etc oh well... i must be stupid... always thought there was another way, not realizing that i already did it that way... just looks different on the output. when i wanted to show you an example, it looked as i wanted it to be. so if you go to the entering part of the roller, it still looks like 1;5;7;10, while it will be 1(newline)5(newline)etc in the direct linking... always thought i gotta be stupid not to find out... actually i just looked in the wrong place...
lonewolf 09-10-07, 11:38 AM	*) weekly prison post is missing quite long now... Prison Roll call is always on Tuesdays. I wouldnt worry yet...
hogarth 09-10-07, 11:59 AM	FYI: The proposed ECL 4 campaign "Five Princes Bar The Way" is postponed for at least a month or two. I've got some other stuff that currently takes priority.
templer10 09-10-07, 04:37 PM	errm- question - in a normal fight - if you die your allies are removed from the arena- what happens in an inter league- unexpectedly -it became an issue - stupid 1 on a will save...
Erithmu 09-10-07, 04:48 PM	errm- question - in a normal fight - if you die your allies are removed from the arena- what happens in an inter league- unexpectedly -it became an issue - stupid 1 on a will save... Linky Without knowing many of the details, if the ally can bring the PC back to life. .. it stays, if not they leave
hogarth 09-10-07, 04:55 PM	Linky Without knowing many of the details, if the ally can bring the PC back to life. .. it stays, if not they leave To clarify, I think templer10 is asking: "In a team battle, if one team member is dead, does his ally disappear immediately or can the ally still help the surviving team member?" I'm not sure what the answer is. From the way it's written, it looks like it doesn't matter whether the character is part of a team or not. Too bad for Balthazar, if that's the case. ;)
TelinArtho 09-10-07, 04:57 PM	Once the main PC is dead, the allies of the PC are removed. Doesn't matter if that PC is a part of a team or not - the allies are removed the instant the PC ceases to be a part of the fight.
MindWandererB 09-10-07, 04:57 PM	so i'd say, it spends half its move moving up and down, but the creature needs not have a fly-speed. (btw: this could be interpreted differently, but i guess the vertical speed should remain the same and not halved -> the commas don't give a clear shot on this. ) just don't get a ghostly riding dog, will you? :)Not quite. An ethereal creature moves at 1/2 its normal speed, period. And it can move in three dimensions. The clauses are set up strangely in that sentence. See the Blink spell--you move at 3/4 speed because you're moving at full speed half the time and 1/2 speed the other half.@MWB: Any news about the links to the old battles threads? I wanted to update my audited characters, but I need those old battles to correct everything.The request has been submitted and recieved. They'll get to it soon, I think.PM sent out for the challenge match. I suspect we can start as soon and MWB gives the OK.Challenge matches still fall into the weekly pairings patterns. As such, edits are officially legal up until the Wednesday deadline. If you work out some other arrangement, that's between you three. For my part, I approve of it and will post it (and deduct credits) on Wednesday. And for future and continuing reference, please send these kinds of requests to Pitlords, not my personal account.It's finaly been decided that the guild game is come to an end, and the suggestion was put forth that there be a campaign to wrap it up in good style. So, I'm asking everyone if they would be interested in a campaign. Here's the tenative details (all subject to change based on interest): Campaignlord: Vathelokai Goal: The guilds depose the council and take over the city Location: Entirely inside the City of Gladius Guild Affiliation: Not Required Alignment and Background: Any, with an interest in seeing a corrupt government destroyed Durration: Either 6 or 9 encounters (basicly 2 or 3 fight cycles) ECL: 5 +/- 1 EL: Will match the PCs ECL exactly; meaning that if one of the PCs levels up after a fight, one of the oponents for the next fight will increase in CR simultaneously. Max PCs: All who show interest (possibly 6 as a loose cap) Crafting: There is the potential to have one full day off for healing/crafting in the middle of the campaign. Shopping: There is the potential to buy things between fights, depending on the circumstances. I'll be making an ambitious effort to include as many of the running plot lines in Gladius as possible.Hmm... I thought the plan was to have it involve the "guild leaders," as it were? I would send Maya, but she's just above the requested ECL (and I'm planning on retiring her, but this would be a great send-off). Gakhnalak is an arena machine. However, I could post and use my replacement character for Maya, who will enter the game at ECL 5 exactly. I should probably post her, then.
TheMagister 09-10-07, 05:13 PM	Re: The Battlesong Duet I'm absolutely certain that McJ wouldn't mind my running Cupid in his stead, since he told me so specifically. I usually just e-mail him and he updates Cupid with whatever has happened to the team. Still, I'll drop him a line and see if he wants to come back to run in the campaign. The question still applies though - would you want TBD to participate?
TelinArtho 09-10-07, 05:14 PM	@lonewolf, regarding your blackmarket request: There is no "counterspell" mechanic to psionics. As such - there really isn't any way to make a Psionic Ring of Counterspells.
lonewolf 09-10-07, 05:22 PM	And thus no way to protect against those ungodly high dispel psionics checks that are running around lately? :nonono: This dispel psionics is another thing that I strongly believe should be adjusted, but at the moment it seems that the elders want to keep the nerf stick as buried as deeply as possible, so well have to live with it. *sigh*
templer10 09-10-07, 05:30 PM	I would send Maya, but she's just above the requested ECL (and I'm planning on retiring her, but this would be a great send-off). Gakhnalak is an arena machine. However, I could post and use my replacement character for Maya, who will enter the game at ECL 5 exactly. I should probably post her, then. I think the ECL for the campain is a bit more fluid - Iam sending lady lira who is ECL 6 and will be very close to ECL 7 or at ecl 7 after this week.
lonewolf 09-10-07, 05:30 PM	Challenge matches still fall into the weekly pairings patterns. As such, edits are officially legal up until the Wednesday deadline. If you work out some other arrangement, that's between you three. For my part, I approve of it and will post it (and deduct credits) on Wednesday. @Vathelokai & templer: As soon as you guys tell me that your characters are ready I will start the thread and roll up the monster.
templer10 09-10-07, 05:33 PM	And thus no way to protect against those ungodly high dispel psionics checks that are running around lately? :nonono: This dispel psionics is another thing that I strongly believe should be adjusted, but at the moment it seems that the elders want to keep the nerf stick as buried as deeply as possible, so well have to live with it. *sigh* Why do i feel you are looking at me lol.... but anyway - samuel should have the easist time with it since he can go into the ground or some such and rebuff and to get those high dispel checks you need to throw 10 pps into that power which is 1/5-1/4 of a fight's worth in ECL10-11.
Eamane 09-10-07, 05:47 PM	@lonewolf, regarding your blackmarket request: There is no "counterspell" mechanic to psionics. As such - there really isn't any way to make a Psionic Ring of Counterspells. Wasn't there a conversation about the lack of the counterspell mechanic in dispel psionics being an oversight rather than intention? Vis a vis: * A psionic power cannot be used as a counterspell, nor is it subject to counterspells. A counterspell involves recognizing a spell as it is being cast, then quickly altering that same spell so as to create an opposite effect that cancels out the original spell. A psionic power taps the manifester's mental energy in a process unlike any spell. (Many powers have results similar to certain spells, but they achieve those results through different means.) As noted earlier, most psionic powers are subject to dispelling (unless their descriptions say they are not). When a psionic power can be dispelled (as most of them are), one can effectively counter them with a dispel magic spell (or the dispel psionics power). While psionic powers are not normally subject to counterspells, dispel magic is not really a counterspell. When you use dispel magic as a counterspell, what you're really doing is quickly casting a targeted dispel effect at the correct moment to negate the enemy spell and not creating an opposite magical effect that cancels your enemy's spell. Bolding mine, but it is rather clear that it should be possible to use Dispel Psionic to 'counterspell'.
TelinArtho 09-10-07, 05:55 PM	I don't remember the specifics of such a conversation, no. That said - I don't think the quote you have there is saying that counterspelling is possible with psionics, rather that you can "effectively counter"spell by readying an action to do a targetted dispel. In the case of a ring of counterspells with Dispel Psionics in it (which it seems is what lonewolf is looking for) - he's trying to get a way for dispel psionics to be countered before it takes effect.
templer10 09-10-07, 06:01 PM	I don't remember the specifics of such a conversation, no. That said - I don't think the quote you have there is saying that counterspelling is possible with psionics, rather that you can "effectively counter"spell by readying an action to do a targetted dispel. In the case of a ring of counterspells with Dispel Psionics in it (which it seems is what lonewolf is looking for) - he's trying to get a way for dispel psionics to be countered before it takes effect. To make it clear- Ring of counterspells wroks exacly like a counterspell using the same spesific spell - so if you put dispel magic into it- the first dispel magic casted on the wearer is negates, same with fireball, or any other spell put into that ring. since you cant Counterspell psionics using the same spell (or power in this case) method a ring of counterspells for psionics doesn't work. on the other hand - a custom item based on a ring of counterspells could be made that you do put dispel psionics into that ring and it can TRY to counterspell the dispell psionics like a counterspell action done using dispel magic - i.e - you roll a dispell check using 1d20+ML vs DC of 11+ML of the caster of the original dispel. it's not as good as a ring of counterspells but it's something.
Eamane 09-10-07, 06:18 PM	Right, thats what I meant. Not that you could get a psionic ring of counterspells, but rather that it is possible to use Dispel Psionics to 'counterspell' psionic powers. You'd have to go about it in a round-about manner though, and it'd take (more) credits, aye.
Vathelokai 09-10-07, 07:52 PM	Re: The Battlesong Duet I'm absolutely certain that McJ wouldn't mind my running Cupid in his stead, since he told me so specifically. I usually just e-mail him and he updates Cupid with whatever has happened to the team. Still, I'll drop him a line and see if he wants to come back to run in the campaign. The question still applies though - would you want TBD to participate? I'm definitely interested in their participation (though I'm not guaranteeing anything). I'm just thinking it would be odd to have one player running two PCs.
Vathelokai 09-10-07, 08:27 PM	Campaignlord: Vathelokai Goal: The guilds depose the council and take over the city Location: Entirely inside the City of Gladius Guild Affiliation: Not Required Alignment and Background: Any, with an interest in seeing a corrupt government destroyed Durration: Either 6 or 9 encounters (basicly 2 or 3 fight cycles) ECL: 5 +/- 1 EL: Will match the PCs ECL exactly; meaning that if one of the PCs levels up after a fight, one of the oponents for the next fight will increase in CR simultaneously. Max PCs: All who show interest (possibly 6 as a loose cap) Crafting: There is the potential to have one full day off for healing/crafting in the middle of the campaign. Shopping: There is the potential to buy things between fights, depending on the circumstances. Eluria - Wroth [NE Duergar cleric3: ECL4] is evil, and slow, but would definitely be interested in governmental collapse (unguilded). templar10 - lady liara [N psiwar2/cleric4: ECL6] Or a newly made Sorcerer (ECL 6 proably) Sjiggie - Valanthe [CEF: LG wilder3/paladin2/warmind1: ECL6] is also interested. Erithmu - I think I'll put Shadowsong EYE: [LG phrenic cleric2/paladin2: ECL6] forward... Considering a N Wiz3/Cleric3 TheMagister and McJarvis - The Battlesong Duet? (Cupid and Tessaro) [N bard6: ECL6, and NG fighter2/psiwar3/warmind1 ECL6] Rauul - the Shadow [NE bard4/rogue1: ECL5] wants in Bad but has -7 credits :weep: Eamane - numerous potential candidates but short on credits. MindWandererB - I would send Maya Redwine [LOY: NG psiwar1/psion6: ECL7] After receiving the first round of applicants, I'm narrowing the field down to Good aligned ECL 6 +/- 1. Almost all applicants were ecl6, so it's better to use those. Also, with 2 paladins, and a NG noble, I think it would be too difficult to add evil characters. If there's enough interest there's the possibility of 2 simultaneous campaigns (like Denth is doing right now). Right now it looks like Liara, Valanthe, Shadowsong, Maya, Cupid, and Tessaro. Guilds: so far EYE, CEF, and LOY are represented. EHTC, and TAO don't have anyone that works. Treetall from TLT? Graashnak Vruuurk from WAR?
hogarth 09-10-07, 08:42 PM	I'm definitely interested in their participation (though I'm not guaranteeing anything). I'm just thinking it would be odd to have one player running two PCs. ...especially considering the rules say that one player can't control more than one member of a team. If McJarvis is actually around writing tactics for his character, that's one thing. But if he's just acting as a "beard", then why bother having the prohibition at all?
Eamane 09-10-07, 09:26 PM	@Vathelokai On the plus side, since the other campaign isn't going forward, I'm +5 credits closer to making this happen. So I just need 10 more credits to make a brand new ECL 5 (I have two ECL 4 characters who could go, now that they definitely arn't going on the other one, but neither has the potential to be ECL 5 within 4 weeks) I guess I'll put up some project sheets to be activated when I've got all the credits. I'll go with the Xeph Ranger and Dwarven Brawler, since both are good(ish).
SauroGrenom 09-10-07, 11:33 PM	Eluria - Wroth [NE Duergar cleric3: ECL4] is evil, and slow, but would definitely be interested in governmental collapse (unguilded). templar10 - lady liara [N psiwar2/cleric4: ECL6] Or a newly made Sorcerer (ECL 6 proably) Sjiggie - Valanthe [CEF: LG wilder3/paladin2/warmind1: ECL6] is also interested. Erithmu - I think I'll put Shadowsong EYE: [LG phrenic cleric2/paladin2: ECL6] forward... Considering a N Wiz3/Cleric3 TheMagister and McJarvis - The Battlesong Duet? (Cupid and Tessaro) [N bard6: ECL6, and NG fighter2/psiwar3/warmind1 ECL6] Rauul - the Shadow [NE bard4/rogue1: ECL5] wants in Bad but has -7 credits :weep: Eamane - numerous potential candidates but short on credits. MindWandererB - I would send Maya Redwine [LOY: NG psiwar1/psion6: ECL7] After receiving the first round of applicants, I'm narrowing the field down to Good aligned ECL 6 +/- 1. Almost all applicants were ecl6, so it's better to use those. Also, with 2 paladins, and a NG noble, I think it would be too difficult to add evil characters. If there's enough interest there's the possibility of 2 simultaneous campaigns (like Denth is doing right now). Right now it looks like Liara, Valanthe, Shadowsong, Maya, Cupid, and Tessaro. Guilds: so far EYE, CEF, and LOY are represented. EHTC, and TAO don't have anyone that works. Treetall from TLT? Graashnak Vruuurk from WAR? PSI has only one character close to that ECL range. Eamane is the one. We would send Eamane if the player is amenable to the idea. Otherwise, all PSI characters are far too high ECL to participate in an ECL 6 group. I'd put up the 5 credits for the PSI member to participate... I have more than enough to spare. BTW: LOY isn't even a guild anymore as far as I know...
Vathelokai 09-10-07, 11:50 PM	PSI has only one character close to that ECL range. Eamane is the one. We would send Eamane if the player is amenable to the idea. Otherwise, all PSI characters are far too high ECL to participate in an ECL 6 group. I'd put up the 5 credits for the PSI member to participate... I have more than enough to spare. BTW: LOY isn't even a guild anymore as far as I know... Missed PSI. Looked over the character roster and didn't see anyone listed at that ECL. LOY and EYE are both defunct, but I wanted the story to be representative of the whole guild movement, so I'm glad they are both included.
Taureus_Drakken 09-11-07, 12:37 AM	Does anyone need a character audited this coming week? It looks like quite a few have been in the past couple of weeks, but if there's anyone who has a character they need looked over, I would be more than willing to do so. ¬Taureus¬
Eamane 09-11-07, 03:43 AM	PSI has only one character close to that ECL range. Eamane is the one. We would send Eamane if the player is amenable to the idea. Otherwise, all PSI characters are far too high ECL to participate in an ECL 6 group. I'd put up the 5 credits for the PSI member to participate... I have more than enough to spare. BTW: LOY isn't even a guild anymore as far as I know... I'm amenable, but like Vath said, Eamane is (now) a bit below the projected ECL and as she just hit ECL 4, hitting ECL 5 within a few weeks is.. daunting... to say the least. If I win 3 ECL 4 fights, I'll gain 3,600, which is just barely enough to hit ECL 5 (100 exp leeway). But her record is 2/2 (with +1 mq) and the one level of wizard hasn't made her uber over night or anything. Hmm. Is it legal to get advice on tactics from other players? ^_^ Might improve my chances a little bit. I'd do a quest and take my chances with monsters (since I have good knowledges to identify what I'm up against), but I'm already slated to defend vs Denth next week as a hold-over for this week and I'm assuming Vath wants to get this going sooner rather than later, so 4 weeks might be asking a bit much. Though now that I think about it, since my fight got held over, in 3 weeks at best I'll be 2/3rds of the way through my next 3FC =/ However, since the Guild Game is coming to an end, it's easy enough for any fresh character I create to represent the PSI guild with some RP between now and when the campaign starts, right? Xeph's are naturally psionic, so he would be welcome in the Constortium, eh?
MindWandererB 09-11-07, 04:29 AM	Even though the EL is 6 +/- 1 right now, it's only Maya who is holding the upper end right now. Since I have no interest in running two guilds, her representation for LOY is something I can live without, especially since I don't think I want to keep running her. I like the character, but once again I think I was trying to do too many things. My alternative would be Flutterthought, a fun concept I'd been considering ever since Sliver and Zero retired. Hadn't decided on a guild--PSI is natural but TLT is kind of their rival right now, I have three characters in TLT already, and nothing else really fits--but if there's a guild restart, it might be a good time to bury the hatchet with PSI anyway. Of course, in a new system I might find a guild I like more: EYE would work well if it returned, or perhaps a non-evil insanity-themed guild. Anyway, if it would work out better to lower the EL to 5 +/- 1, she's available to represent PSI.
templer10 09-11-07, 05:02 AM	Even though the EL is 6 +/- 1 right now, it's only Maya who is holding the upper end right now. Since I have no interest in running two guilds, her representation for LOY is something I can live without, especially since I don't think I want to keep running her. I like the character, but once again I think I was trying to do too many things. unless i coem out last this week in the FFAlady liara will be ecl 7 and eve if she will be ecl 7 after first encounter in teh campain so i wouldnt worry about Maya.
templer10 09-11-07, 05:03 AM	Hmm. Is it legal to get advice on tactics from other players? ^_^ Might improve my chances a little bit. Sure ask me i dont mind I'd do a quest and take my chances with monsters (since I have good knowledges to identify what I'm up against) just dont take Teling as questlord lol
TelinArtho 09-11-07, 04:34 PM	On the road to working on my own agenda, I'm still working on more mercenaries. My latest is a rebuild of my old Ghoul Fighter into a regular ghoul mercenary. Blaergh Ghoul Comments are welcome.
Rauul 09-11-07, 05:16 PM	On the road to working on my own agenda, I'm still working on more mercenaries. My latest is a rebuild of my old Ghoul Fighter into a regular ghoul mercenary. Blaergh Ghoul Comments are welcome. pfftt where was he a month ago when i could of used him!..
TelinArtho 09-11-07, 05:20 PM	Well - he hasn't been approved yet - so it doesn't really matter... but he was "in development" just like many of my other projects (like my often-mentioned Half-Dragon Sahuagin mutant and my mephit and the rebuild of my elven rogue using traps, my troglodyte were-camel (which was scrapped and remade into a were-dire badger...), my half-dragon troglodyte were-dire badger (weee - +14 con modifier...)). In fact - these days I have more characters in development than actually active...
Rauul 09-11-07, 05:30 PM	How is permanent lost worked in Coco.. Example Shadow essence poison.. fail a dc 17 for save and loose 1 str permenantly.. is that recovered after a death in the nimbus.. or after the fight..
TelinArtho 09-11-07, 05:35 PM	That would only last the current fight.
Salrantol 09-11-07, 08:09 PM	I was just browsing the characters to see against whom I might be paired, and it looks like a lot of characters are set ready for AUGUST 12, which is well past and wasn't a pairings day. Everyone might want to check that.
SauroGrenom 09-11-07, 10:08 PM	WTF! Someone is logged in as Guildmaster (PSI) and it's not me... Whomever is logged in now, you don't have permission to use that account.
TelinArtho 09-12-07, 11:01 AM	Is there any issue with using advanced HD animals as the base creature in a lycanthrope? For instance - a Were Dire Eagle with 2HD on the eagle (Medium size) rather than 1HD (small size). There's only a few cases that I see as being "beneficial" - essentially a size increase for just 1 HD more. Dire Badger - 3HD, +4 Str, +6 Dex, +8 Con, +3 Nat Large Dire Badger - 4HD, +12 Str, +4 Dex, +12 Con, +5 Nat (but the Dire Wolverine is 5HD with +12 str, +6 dex, +8 con, +4 nat) Eagle - 1HD, +4 Dex, +2 Con, +1 Nat Medium Eagle - 2HD, +4 Str, +2 Dex, +4 Con, +1 Nat (no aerial animals of medium size) Most of the cases where 1 HD increase provides a size increase are regular animals that improve to their Dire version (Wolves, etc). The lycanthrope, if this is an option, might be able to save 1-2 HD worth from the Dire version, but that's about the best it can do.
TelinArtho 09-12-07, 12:49 PM	Can someone send me the stats for the various yuan-tis via PM please? Thanks in advance.
TelinArtho 09-12-07, 05:18 PM	*crickets* Okay... so anyone? Anyway - I've posted another mercenary. Comments are welcome as always (especially if there's an error). And here's a linky: Zane Therapodulous
lonewolf 09-12-07, 05:26 PM	Can anyone clarify for me how spot vs invisibility exactly works? In the Psibeast vs Longshot fight, should Psibeast be able to see the invisible creature or not?
templer10 09-12-07, 05:30 PM	Can anyone clarify for me how spot vs invisibility exactly works? In the Psibeast vs Longshot fight, should Psibeast be able to see the invisible creature or not? HEre's the reference about invisibility in the SRD - i think it's pretty Clear - you CANT use spot to spot an invisible target UNLESS it is whitin 30 feet of you "A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Spot check. The observer gains a hunch that “something’s there” but can’t see it or target it accurately with an attack. A creature who is holding still is very hard to notice (DC 30). An inanimate object, an unliving creature holding still, or a completely immobile creature is even harder to spot (DC 40). It’s practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature’s location with a Spot check, and even if a character succeeds on such a check, the invisible creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance). " emphatis mine.
MindWandererB 09-12-07, 05:59 PM	*crickets* Okay... so anyone? Anyway - I've posted another mercenary. Comments are welcome as always (especially if there's an error). And here's a linky: Zane TherapodulousI'll get to it. Probably tonight, maybe tomorrow. About the lycans... I'm slightly on the side of not allowing it. Advancement is a change to an individual creature, not to the type itself. Lycanthropes acquire characteristics of an animal, but it's not like a humanoid and an animal fused together. Since lycans advance by character class, and the base type is a humanoid, I don't think it works that way. About the only way to advance a lycanthrope by HD would be to have a base creature that advances by HD and afflict it with lycanthropy later.
Vathelokai 09-13-07, 01:09 AM	Can anyone clarify for me how spot vs invisibility exactly works? In the Psibeast vs Longshot fight, should Psibeast be able to see the invisible creature or not? In the hide skill it states that you get a +20 to hide for being invis. That doesn't change any other modifiers (size, speed, etc.) In the spot skill... A Spot check result higher than 20 generally lets you become aware of an invisible creature near you, though you can’t actually see it. Psibeast did get higher than a 20, so it is possible. Templer10's quote is from the 'special abilities and conditions' section of the the SRD. It looks to me as though that section and the hide skill section use 2 different mechanics. I did note some things after looking at the roller: not sure how Psibeasts modifier for spot came out. Shouldn't it be +2? Also, there is still metamorph's move silent check (unless there's some effect going on I'm not aware of). Either way: another elder is going to have to make a statement on how the 'special abilities' and the 'skills' section of the SRD deal with hide/spot/invis.
Rauul 09-13-07, 03:15 AM	Question.. Githzerai get a +4 to ac (including touch and flat footed) originally this was stated as a field around them.. later was Appended to be Inertial armor that was always active as long as they were conscious.. What i need to know is since we don't use the Psionic Githzerai is it considered a +4 racial armor bonus, or is it considered Inertial armor (one can wear armor with it, other can't).. Seeing as they got a +2 LA and don't use the Psionic Book version..
lonewolf 09-13-07, 03:26 AM	It is still an armor bonus and thus doesnt stack with the bonus from physical armor(or inertal armor for that matter).
whitebaron 09-13-07, 03:36 AM	for the hide thing. i think there are two different checks. 1: flat dc 20 to know that there is somewhere within 30 ft, undefined location, a hidden creature. 2: Special: If you are invisible, you gain a +40 bonus on Hide checks if you are immobile, or a +20 bonus on Hide checks if you’re moving. so, its rolled normally. don't need any cover or concealment, distance applies, but else, its rolled normally spot vs. hide. it even says so in the special abilities section. It’s practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature’s location with a Spot check, and even if a character succeeds on such a check, the invisible creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance). so, in my opinion, you need to do two spot checks, and this only works in close quarters: one spot check if you even realise someone is there, (automatic/free), and one spot check (move) to actively search for the invisible creature. i might be wrong on the actions, but it _is_ definitely possible to even pinpoint a hidden creature.
Rauul 09-13-07, 04:20 AM	for the hide thing. i think there are two different checks. 1: flat dc 20 to know that there is somewhere within 30 ft, undefined location, a hidden creature. 2: so, its rolled normally. don't need any cover or concealment, distance applies, but else, its rolled normally spot vs. hide. it even says so in the special abilities section. so, in my opinion, you need to do two spot checks, and this only works in close quarters: one spot check if you even realise someone is there, (automatic/free), and one spot check (move) to actively search for the invisible creature. i might be wrong on the actions, but it _is_ definitely possible to even pinpoint a hidden creature. I sort of disagree with you.. if hidden within 30ft you get a DC 20 to know the general location of the hidden on.. if they are invisible and immoble it's a dc 60 (20+40) if they are moving it's dc 40 (20+20) Now basicly this means the invisible creature or player is going to free attack before they become visible then it's a nonissue unless they are using greater invisibily.. why the heck you want to give someone 2 spot checks a round vs a hidden person??
Rauul 09-13-07, 05:00 AM	Well i give you my newest creation.... Gol'ie O'rean (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13764374&postcount=1220) comments or complaints welcome
whitebaron 09-13-07, 07:33 AM	I sort of disagree with you.. if hidden within 30ft you get a DC 20 to know the general location of the hidden on.. if they are invisible and immoble it's a dc 60 (20+40) if they are moving it's dc 40 (20+20) Now basicly this means the invisible creature or player is going to free attack before they become visible then it's a nonissue unless they are using greater invisibily.. why the heck you want to give someone 2 spot checks a round vs a hidden person?? second check only applies if you already know, that there IS an opponent. depending on his move, he gets a bonus. it is still spot vs hide for invisible creatures, the first check is only to actually become aware of it. if it fails, you don't even get the second. if it worked, you only get the second in subsequent rounds, since you already have a hunch, that there is indeed something hidden.
TelinArtho 09-13-07, 02:17 PM	Can someone send me the stats for the various yuan-tis via PM please? Thanks in advance. In case anyone missed this or assumed I got what I needed - I'm just bumping this because I'm still looking for it... so far I've only been able to find the 3.0 stats - which seem to be quite different...
Eamane 09-13-07, 02:22 PM	In case anyone missed this or assumed I got what I needed - I'm just bumping this because I'm still looking for it... so far I've only been able to find the 3.0 stats - which seem to be quite different... I'll send you the stats now, hold on.
TelinArtho 09-13-07, 02:32 PM	In case anyone cares, here's a quick rundown of most of the creatures with an elemental subtype (for those clerics with elemental domains). I didn't include the cold subtype since there isn't a domain for it though. Air Elemental, Small (Air, 2HD, CR1) Arrowhawk, Juvenile (Air, 3HD, CR3) Mephit, Air (Air, 3HD, CR3) Mephit, Dust (Air, 3HD, CR3) Mephit, Ice (Air, 3HD, CR3) Air Elemental, Medium (Air, 4HD, CR3) Dragon, Green Wyrmling (Air, 5HD, CR3) Arrowhawk, Adult (Air, 7HD, CR5) Genie, Djinni (Air, 7HD, CR5) Belker (Air, 7HD, CR6) Dragon, Green Very Young (Air, 8HD, CR4) Air Elemental, Large (Air, 8HD, CR5) Invisible Stalker (Air, 8HD, CR7) Will-O'-Wisp (Air, 9HD, CR6) Dragon, Green Young (Air, 11HD, CR5) Dragon, Green Juvenile (Air, 14HD, CR8) Arrowhawk, Elder (Air, 15HD, CR8) Air Elemental, Huge (Air, 16HD, CR7) Giant, Cloud (Air, 17HD, CR11) Air Elemental, Greater (Air, 21HD, CR9) Air Elemental, Elder (Air, 24HD, CR11) Earth Elemental, Small (Earth, 2HD, CR1) Thoqqua (Earth, Fire, 3HD, CR2) Mephit, Earth (Earth, 3HD, CR3) Mephit, Salt (Earth, 3HD, CR3) Xorn, Minor (Earth, 3HD, CR3) Earth Elemental, Medium (Earth, 4HD, CR3) Gargoyle (Earth, 4HD, CR4) Dragon, Copper Wyrmling (Earth, 5HD, CR3) Dragon, Blue Wyrmling (Earth, 6HD, CR3) Crysmal (Earth, 6HD, CR3) Xorn, Average (Earth, 7HD, CR6) Dragon, Copper Very Young (Earth, 8HD, CR5) Earth Elemental, Large (Earth, 8HD, CR5) Dragon, Blue Very Young (Earth, 9HD, CR4) Dragon, Copper Young (Earth, 11HD, CR7) Dragon, Blue Young (Earth, 12HD, CR6) Giant, Stone (Stone, 14HD, CR8) Dragon, Copper Juvenile (Earth 14HD, CR9) Dragon, Blue Juvenile (Earth, 15HD, CR8) Xorn, Elder (Earth, 15HD, CR8) Earth Elemental, Huge (Earth, 16HD, CR7) Earth Elemental, Greater (Earth, 21HD, CR9) Earth Elemental, Elder (Earth, 24HD, CR11) Azer (Fire, 2HD, CR2) Fire Elemental, Small (Fire, 2HD, CR1) Magmin (Fire, 2HD, CR3) Thoqqua (Earth, Fire, 3HD, CR2) Mephit, Fire (Fire, 3HD, CR3) Mephit, Magma (Fire, 3HD, CR3) Mephit, Steam (Fire, 3HD, CR3) Fire Elemental, Medium (Fire, 4HD, CR3) Dragon, Brass Wyrmling (Fire, 4HD, CR3) Hell Hound (Fire, 4HD, CR3) Salamander, Flamebrother (Fire, 4HD, CR3) Rast (Fire, 4HD, CR5) Hydra, 5-headed Pyro Hydra (Fire, 5HD, CR6) Hydra, 6-headed Pyro Hydra (Fire, 6HD, CR7) Dragon, Red Wyrmling (Fire, 7HD, CR4) Dragon, Brass Very Young (Fire, 7HD, CR4) Hydra, 7-headed Pyro Hydra (Fire, 7HD, CR8) Dragon, Gold Wyrmling (Fire, 8HD, CR5) Fire Elemental, Large (Fire, 8HD, CR5) Hydra, 8-headed Pyro Hydra (Fire, 8HD, CR9) Salamander, Average (Fire, 9HD, CR6) Hydra, 9-headed Pyro Hydra (Fire, 9HD, CR10) Dragon, Red Very Young (Fire, 10HD, CR5) Dragon, Brass Young (Fire, 10HD, CR6) Genie, Efreeti (Fire, 10HD, CR8) Hydra, 10-headed Pyro Hydra (Fire, 10HD, CR11) Dragon, Gold Very Young (Fire, 11HD, CR7) Hydra, 11-headed Pyro Hydra (Fire, 11HD, CR12) Hell Hound, Nessian War Hound (Fire, 12HD, CR9) Hydra, 12-headed Pyro Hydra (Fire, 12HD, CR13) Dragon, Red Young (Fire, 13HD, CR7) Dragon, Brass Juvenile (Fire, 13HD, CR8) Dragon, Gold Young (Fire, 14HD, CR9) Giant, Fire (Fire, 15HD, CR10) Salamander, Noble (Fire, 15HD, CR10) Fire Elemental, Huge (Fire, 16HD, CR7) Dragon, Red Juvenile (Fire, 16HD, CR10) Fire Elemental, Greater (Fire, 21HD, CR9) Fire Elemental, Elder (Fire, 24HD, CR11) Water Elemental, Small (Water, 2HD, CR1) Triton (Water, 3HD, CR2) Mephit, Ooze (Water, 3HD, CR3) Mephit, Water (Water, 3HD, CR3) Tojanida, Juvenile (Water, 3HD, CR3) Water Elemental, Medium (Water, 4HD, CR3) Dragon, Black Wyrmling (Water, 4HD, CR3) Dragon, Bronze Wyrmling (Water, 6HD, CR3) Dragon, Black Very Young (Water, 7HD, CR4) Tojanida, Adult (Water, 7HD, CR5) Water Elemental, Large (Water, 8HD, CR5) Dragon, Bronze Very Young (Water, 9HD, CR5) Dragon, Black Young (Water, 10HD, CR5) Dragon, Bronze Young (Water, 12HD, CR7) Dragon, Black Juvenile (Water, 13HD, CR7) Dragon, Bronze Juvenile (Water, 15HD, CR9) Tojanida, Elder (Water, 15HD, CR9) Water Elemental, Huge (Water, 16HD, CR7) Dragon, Black Young Adult (Water, 16HD, CR9) Water Elemental, Greater (Water, 21HD, CR9) Water Elemental, Elder (Water, 24HD, CR11) I needed a quick reference for my elemental clerics, so I figured I'd just post it rather than keep it to myself.
TelinArtho 09-13-07, 02:39 PM	Well i give you my newest creation.... Gol'ie O'rean (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13764374&postcount=1220) comments or complaints welcome I don't believe Githzerai have a Con bonus. (I admit - I have to use examples of previous Githzerai - but none of the ones in the CoCo previously have had a Con bonus - so I'm assuming this is incorrect). Also - you can't get potions of Expeditious Retreat since Exp. Retreat is a personal-range spell and can't be made into a potion. Lastly you have a superscript a next to all of the save bonuses... was this a holdover from one of NiQil's sheets or was there supposed to be a note to go with it?
Eamane 09-13-07, 04:12 PM	@Telin Sending now.. as a note, due to the character limit on pms, it's going to take me four PMs to send all of it, so make sure you have some room.
TelinArtho 09-13-07, 04:20 PM	Thanks muchly. Now to see about yet another character design...
Rauul 09-13-07, 04:22 PM	I don't believe Githzerai have a Con bonus. (I admit - I have to use examples of previous Githzerai - but none of the ones in the CoCo previously have had a Con bonus - so I'm assuming this is incorrect). Also - you can't get potions of Expeditious Retreat since Exp. Retreat is a personal-range spell and can't be made into a potion. Lastly you have a superscript a next to all of the save bonuses... was this a holdover from one of NiQil's sheets or was there supposed to be a note to go with it? thank you.. the +2 was because i used Gorteck's sheet lol changed the potions to magic weapon oils and removed the a from the saves since his saves aren't agumented
The Dread Dormammu 09-13-07, 06:30 PM	How does Magic Jar work in the Core Coliseum? If someone takes over another character’s body I assume that they can’t bring the body into the next fight. Is it returned, like equipment, after the battle? Can someone “Magic Jar” a cohort before battle and use their body in combat? Does their original lifeless body even have to enter the arena? I apologize if this question has been answered elsewhere.
Erithmu 09-13-07, 07:06 PM	How does Magic Jar work in the Core Coliseum? If someone takes over another character’s body I assume that they can’t bring the body into the next fight. Is it returned, like equipment, after the battle? Can someone “Magic Jar” a cohort before battle and use their body in combat? Does their original lifeless body even have to enter the arena? I apologize if this question has been answered elsewhere.Alright I'll do my best here ... (I normally prohibit Necro from my wizards) An arena fight ends when one of the opponents is defeated. Often wizards will use magic jar to possess an opponent and then CDG themselves. The Nimbus is also designed to remove all adverse or ill effects (Basically it will shunt you out of the body you are possessing). Basically yes it is returned. I don't see why you couldn't prebuff it and possess your cohort, Remember that if your cohort dies outside of the range of your body (medium range) then you die as well which would limit the usefulness of your leadership feat of being 2v1. I'm not sure how this would work with the Frighten Allies effect. The Nimbus teleports the body of a participant into the arena bringing along all equipment and items that are needed for spells (including the focus for Magic Jar). You can't 'leave your own body at home' as cohorts or pets are sometimes done after a fight is announced. If you would like to push the 'not in the arena rule' I would direct you to the 10 round limit that a gladiator can be outside the arena before losing the fight.
whitebaron 09-13-07, 07:35 PM	question about chill touch & familiar: is chill touch considered as holding the charge, so master cannot cast spells without cancelling the spell?
Erithmu 09-13-07, 07:42 PM	question about chill touch & familiar: is chill touch considered as holding the charge, so master cannot cast spells without cancelling the spell?correct
Abyssal Stalker 09-14-07, 12:32 PM	Hey, look who has posted a new character... Nice to see you, Iced!
hogarth 09-14-07, 01:03 PM	I don't see why you couldn't prebuff [Magic Jar] and possess your cohort, Remember that if your cohort dies outside of the range of your body (medium range) then you die as well which would limit the usefulness of your leadership feat of being 2v1. I'm not sure how this would work with the Frighten Allies effect. I've been thinking about a ghost character, and one thing I was considering was starting with Malevolence prebuffed (probably on a Handle Animals ally). But lonewolf said he was told that a ghost character wasn't allowed to start a fight while ethereal (even though the rules don't directly prohibit it) so now I don't know what to think.
Erithmu 09-14-07, 01:19 PM	I've been thinking about a ghost character, and one thing I was considering was starting with Malevolence prebuffed (probably on a Handle Animals ally). But lonewolf said he was told that a ghost character wasn't allowed to start a fight while ethereal (even though the rules don't directly prohibit it) so now I don't know what to think. A Ghost does have to be manifested in order to use Malevolence so you wouldn't start ethereal. My comments were made in reference to the Magic Jar spell ... which is a little more limiting in range than the Ghost's malevolence ability. Speaking as an 'old fart' around here I would guess that you could prebuff Malevolence (I don't see any reason why not). There is still the issue with Frighten Allies effect (something I'm not really interested in pondering at this split second). The ghost character is in the arena, just possessing a body.
TelinArtho 09-14-07, 01:23 PM	Hmm - yuan-ti only have two listed "bonus languages." If a character I'm designing has more bonus languages than are listed - can I just choose anything? (I realize it won't be a big deal in the CoCo anyway... I'm just curious).
Eamane 09-14-07, 01:36 PM	Hmm - yuan-ti only have two listed "bonus languages." If a character I'm designing has more bonus languages than are listed - can I just choose anything? (I realize it won't be a big deal in the CoCo anyway... I'm just curious). I've wondered the same thing myself. I've assumed the intent was that the language lists represent what a -foo- would have an easy time learning and anything else would need to be purchased with speak language; But in every game where it's came up the DM has said 'sure, pick anything that makes sense', which is probably what I would say ^_^
whitebaron 09-14-07, 01:45 PM	Hmm - yuan-ti only have two listed "bonus languages." If a character I'm designing has more bonus languages than are listed - can I just choose anything? (I realize it won't be a big deal in the CoCo anyway... I'm just curious). actually, per the rules: no. but any normal dm would allow you to take other languages that fit.
lonewolf 09-14-07, 01:47 PM	Whitebaron beat me to it. Noncore example: warforged from Eberron have no bonus languages listed and it is specifically stated that they simply cannot know more than just common at start.
hogarth 09-14-07, 01:47 PM	Hmm - yuan-ti only have two listed "bonus languages." If a character I'm designing has more bonus languages than are listed - can I just choose anything? (I realize it won't be a big deal in the CoCo anyway... I'm just curious). No; if you have more points of Int mod than bonus languages, you just don't get them. Note that the Warforged race from the Eberron Campaign Setting doesn't have any bonus languages! EDIT: Haha! Lonewolf beat ME to it.
TelinArtho 09-14-07, 03:05 PM	I can certainly live with one language less. It doesn't make a difference really until later on usually anyway...
TelinArtho 09-14-07, 03:06 PM	Note: I made this list in accordance with a proposal I sent to MWB to get mercenaries more traffic. He has not yet approved anything I have included below, but I wanted to see if the even a small portion of the populace of the CoCo was interested, or if there were comments to be had. Approved Mercenaries: Below is the list of the current approved mercenaries. Note that this links to the Mercenaries of Gladius thread and that the original proposed version might be significantly different than the approved version. As more mercenaries are approved, this list will be broken out by ECL. [ECL 1] Barak Wolfskinner (Human Barbarian 1) [ECL 1] Jazer Ik-Ahaman (Human Druid 1) [ECL 2] Trillian Tallbow (Elven Fighter 2) [ECL 3] Grauerholz (Gnome Illusionist 3) [ECL 4] Hauber Bulwark (Dwarf Cleric 4) [ECL 5] Simaro Arnerl (Elf Transmuter 5) [ECL 6] Xander (Half-Giant Psiwarrior 5) [ECL 7] Bobo the Brute (Ogre Barbarian 1) Proposed Mercenaries: Below is the list of all of the proposed mercenaries, including ones that have already been approved (marked in italics) and ones that are not complete. In order to get more mercenaries approved, please ask for specific mercenaries. Once one is asked for, I will perform a thorough audit (to make sure the mercenary is valid), compare the mercenary to other active mercenaries, and finally make a decision to approve/deny the mercenary. In general, if a mercenary's role is covered within +/- 1 ECL, then the mercenary won't likely be approved. Exceptions will occur at the lower ECLs. Also - if there is enough desire, the same method could be done to suggest a replacement for a currently active mercenary. Replacements should be within +/- 1 ECL of the current mercenary and fulfill the same role but in a significantly different way. As more mercenaries are proposed, I will keep this list up to date as it is needed. I will also find a permanent home for it in the future - just posting it in the tavern for the present time... Lastly, I have noted many of the below as "complete" - no one should take this statement as an indication that I have already performed an audit on the character in question. Many might still have issues - I just noted "complete" when it seemed to me that the character was mostly done. ECL1 Barak Wolfskinner Human Barbarian 1 (ECL1): complete, approved. Jazer Ik-Ahaman Human Druid 1 (ECL1): complete, approved. Aramil Kobold-Slayer Elf Ranger 1 (ECL1): complete, <not approved> Lawrence Gaius Human Paladin 1 (ECL1): complete, <not approved> Orrid Nuts Halfling Rogue 1 (ECL1): complete, <not approved> Gunnor Thwappen Forest Gnome Sorcerer 1 (ECL1): complete, <not approved> Liel Turom Maenad Bard 1 (ECL1): complete, <not approved> Evel Aol Human Cleric 1 (ECL1): complete, <not approved> Angela Bairns Human Cleric 1 (ECL1): complete, <not approved> Hunter Theor Human Rogue 1 (ECL1): complete, <not approved> Zane Therapodulous Human Bard 1 (ECL1): complete, <not approved> ECL2 Trillian Tallbow Elf Fighter 2 (ECL2): complete, approved. Barsimmon Oridio Wood Elf Ranger 2 (ECL2): complete, <not approved> Ohko Ono Maenad Barbarian 1/Druid 1 (ECL2): complete, <not approved> Turen Gill Human Rogue 1/Fighter 1 (ECL2): complete, <not approved> Bo Bert/Fo Bert Human Rogue 2 (ECL2 each): complete, <not approved> Don Relik Human Cleric 2 (ECL2): complete, <not approved> Private 618 Hobgoblin Fighter 1 (ECL2): complete, <not approved> ECL3 Manard Greenfist Wood Elf Monk 3 (ECL3): complete, <not approved> Yojimbo the Ronin Human Ex-monk 1/Fighter 2 (ECL3): complete, <not approved> Grauerholz Forest Gnome Illusionist 3 (ECL3): complete, approved. Sharellym Vlaln Drow Elf Cleric 1 (ECL3): complete, <not approved> Kemman Tovaritsch Elan Transmuter 3 (ECL3): complete, <not approved> Cliffbearer Half-Giant Ex-monk 1/Barbarian 1 (ECL3): complete, <not approved> Belark Methren Duergar (psionic) Psychic Warrior 2 (ECL3): complete, <not approved> Bedina Cassan Xeph Monk 3 (ECL3): complete, <not approved> Bedina Cassan Xeph Ex-Barbarian 1/Fighter 2 (ECL3): complete, <not approved> Hansel Human Ranger 2/Fighter 1 (ECL3): complete, <not approved> Alden Fosyth Human Cleric 3 (ECL3): complete, <not approved> ECL4 Sparks Goblin Expert 4 (ECL4): <invalid> Odruke Pureheart Human (Fallen) Paladin 4 (ECL4): complete, <not approved> Shanarra Wood Elf Fighter 2/Bard 2 (ECL4): complete, <not approved> Alex the Hunter Human Ranger 1/Fighter 2/Druid 1 (ECL4): complete, <not approved> Hauber Bulwark Mountain Dwarf Cleric 4 (ECL4): complete, approved. Alicia Human Wilder 4 (ECL4): complete, <not approved> ECL5 Andarian Greenleaf Venerable Human Druid 5 (ECL5): <incomplete> Kalor Middle-aged Sun Elf (not a valid race) Abjurer 5 (ECL5): <invalid> Simaro Arnerl Gray Elf Transmuter 5 (ECL5): complete, approved. Blaergh Ghoul (ECL5): complete, <not approved> ECL6 Xander the Dauntless Half-Giant Psychic Warrior 5 (ECL6): complete, approved. Ruffrrn Blink Dog (ECL6): complete, <not approved> Johan the "Long Knife" Human Rogue 6 (ECL6): complete, <not approved> Glittershell Dromite Cleric 4/Psychic Warrior 1 (ECL6): <incomplete> Bravo, the Exaggerator Half-Orc Barbarian 1/Bard 5 (ECL6): complete, <not approved> ECL7 Bobo the Brute Ogre Barbarian 1 (ECL7): complete, approved. Hanna the Wise Centaur Druid 1 (ECL7): complete, <not approved> ECL8 Calliandra "Cali" Talongate Human Abjurer (UA Variant) 8 (ECL8): complete, <not approved> Szaal'zass the Shaman Lizardfolk Cleric 5 (ECL8): complete, <not approved> ECL9 Destra Stormwind Human Druid 8/Barbarian 1 (ECL9): complete, <not approved> <No Name> <incomplete> <Nothing> <Nothing> <No Name> Gray Elf Wizard 1 (ECL1): <incomplete>
MindWandererB 09-14-07, 04:13 PM	Hmm - yuan-ti only have two listed "bonus languages." If a character I'm designing has more bonus languages than are listed - can I just choose anything? (I realize it won't be a big deal in the CoCo anyway... I'm just curious).Heh... same thing happened when I was making Flutterthought. You can see how I handled it there....
TelinArtho 09-14-07, 04:23 PM	Nice. I'm actually surprised at the Yuan-ti build I am working on. He really is having a hard time finding a focus because Yuan-ti are fairly versatile, but at the same time, don't have a niche where they "have" to go into. The character could just as easily do fighter as paladin of slaughter as sorcerer as cleric as bard as rogue. Of course the ECL6 start make full casting classes of "lesser" importance, but I'm really just not sold on a warrior or rogue out of it...
Rauul 09-14-07, 05:05 PM	Nice. I'm actually surprised at the Yuan-ti build I am working on. He really is having a hard time finding a focus because Yuan-ti are fairly versatile, but at the same time, don't have a niche where they "have" to go into. The character could just as easily do fighter as paladin of slaughter as sorcerer as cleric as bard as rogue. Of course the ECL6 start make full casting classes of "lesser" importance, but I'm really just not sold on a warrior or rogue out of it... how about a monk?
TelinArtho 09-14-07, 05:10 PM	Ugh. I've never liked monks. I don't think I ever will. Monks actually belong in a category beyond psionics (in my categorization of classes that I like/dislike). I have had 1 psionic character in my entire time being here (a wilder - whom I liked well enough - he was just - well - boring). I don't think I will ever make a monk though.
TheMagister 09-14-07, 05:44 PM	Ugh. I've never liked monks. I don't think I ever will. Monks actually belong in a category beyond psionics (in my categorization of classes that I like/dislike). I have had 1 psionic character in my entire time being here (a wilder - whom I liked well enough - he was just - well - boring). I don't think I will ever make a monk though. :pbbbtt: Looks at Rubicanti's (the psionic monk's) record when Telin runs him. :raincloud I knew there was a reason. j/k, bro. TM
Erithmu 09-14-07, 05:55 PM	How does advancing CL/ML beyond the maximum on a PrC casting class work. Ex: Start 5/Asn5/Arc Trick 10 advancing Asn casting? My assumptions: CL advances although no new spell slots are gained. So the 10th lvl chart but would have CL15 for spell effects. Ex2: Start 5/Psi Fist10/Eloc 5 advancing Psi fist (+3ML) My Assumptions: ML advances, no new powers are gained. No additional base pp are gained. Additional pp are gained for high ability score. So ML13, 10 powers known and PF 10 Base pp + ML 13 ability score pp. I could be very wrong on these, but these are just initial reads.
SauroGrenom 09-14-07, 07:15 PM	Your ML and CL can continue to advance with more spells/powers as long as the "base casting class" has room for further advancement. So your assassin who goes into arcane trickster will be able to advance his assassin casting with arcane trickster. Your CL will go up to 15, but after 10 levels the assassin doesn't get more spells. So at 5 assassin and 5 arcane trickster, you'd be maxed out on spells. Going farther in trickster buys you increased CL that could still be valuable. Same goes for other similar situations. At least that's how I read it.
Erithmu 09-14-07, 07:20 PM	What about the psionic options from high ability score based upon ML. Do I get those bonus pp?
hogarth 09-14-07, 08:30 PM	What about the psionic options from high ability score based upon ML. Do I get those bonus pp? It's hard to say. I would say "no" based on what it says for Epic Psionic Class Progressions in the SRD. No Epic Bonus Power Progression Epic psionic characters do not gain additional bonus power points above 20th. They may still gain more power points as their key ability score increases. So a level 15 War Mind would have the same power points as a level 10 War Mind. The logic's a little shaky, but I think that's the intent.
SauroGrenom 09-14-07, 10:46 PM	What about the psionic options from high ability score based upon ML. Do I get those bonus pp? Well there's a similar mechanic for psionics. After hitting Warmind 10 ML, or Psionic Fist 10 ML, you don't get more pp/day. But the bonus pp are provided as an equation that does continue to grow with higher ML. So you'll get more bonus pp, but the base pp are maxed at 10th level.
lonewolf 09-15-07, 01:45 AM	Can a creature with Str 0 manifest defensively? My instincts say no, but Im not sure...
Ackermanus 09-15-07, 04:27 AM	Hi everyone. I'm new here, just joined the boards after a friend told me about the CoCo. Although I've played D&D for some time, I usually don't go to forums, but since it is a requirement...;) Anyway, I have a four questions before I can start a new character. 1: In the CoCo, does your starting equipment have a maximum price, as in normal D&D? (Like 1/3 your gold in a single item)? 2: Does "Political Carrer" influence the xp everyone gains in a party, or does it apply only to you (thus forcing you to leave the party for not having the same xp), or is it utterly useless in a party? 3: Your cohort gained from the leadership feat deducts the xp and gp you gain... but what if the said cohort is your animal companion/special mount (and, of course, do you allow that here) ? 4: Can a Paladin's special mount be changed according to level? (I believe that is in the dungeon master guide, you could change to pegasus and stuff if your paladin level is high enough) Thanks for your time, sorry if these questions were asked before, and congratulations for the coliseum.:thumbsup: Oh, right, an unrelated question... how can you use a custom avatar? Can't seem to find how, heh.
MindWandererB 09-15-07, 04:41 AM	Can a creature with Str 0 manifest defensively? My instincts say no, but Im not sure...Why not?Hi everyone. I'm new here, just joined the boards after a friend told me about the CoCo. Although I've played D&D for some time, I usually don't go to forums, but since it is a requirement...;) Anyway, I have a four questions before I can start a new character. 1: In the CoCo, does your starting equipment have a maximum price, as in normal D&D? (Like 1/3 your gold in a single item)? 2: Does "Political Carrer" influence the xp everyone gains in a party, or does it apply only to you (thus forcing you to leave the party for not having the same xp), or is it utterly useless in a party? 3: Your cohort gained from the leadership feat deducts the xp and gp you gain... but what if the said cohort is your animal companion/special mount (and, of course, do you allow that here) ? 4: Can a Paladin's special mount be changed according to level? (I believe that is in the dungeon master guide, you could change to pegasus and stuff if your paladin level is high enough) Thanks for your time, sorry if these questions were asked before, and congratulations for the coliseum.:thumbsup: Oh, right, an unrelated question... how can you use a custom avatar? Can't seem to find how, heh.How is going to forums a requirement? 1: Nope. And the 1/3 rule is only a recommendation, anyway. 2: If you're in a party, the bonus is averaged across all members. So if you'd get a 30% bonus solo, you'd each get 15% in a 2-person team, or 10% in a 3-person team. 3: There is no mechanic for your cohort to double as a class feature ally. We talked about allowing it once, but I don't recall that we ever passed that. (If we did, then it's a class feature ally and incurs no penalty.) 4: Yes, per the DMG rules. Custom avatars can only be awarded to you by an administrator, usually by winning a contest. That goes for CoCo contests, too! And isn't UnCon coming up soon...?
whitebaron 09-15-07, 05:01 AM	Can a creature with Str 0 manifest defensively? My instincts say no, but Im not sure... with Str "0" it can't even move. with Str -, it should be possible.
Sjiggie 09-15-07, 06:03 AM	Question about Strenght of My Enemy: When you trip somebody when you have Strenght of my Enemy running and hit on the touch attack and Follow up doe you drain 2 points of damage and gain a +2 enchantment bonus to your strenght or does it count as 1 hit? You gain the ability to siphon away your enemy’s strength for your own use. One of your natural or manufactured weapons becomes the instrument of your desire, and deals 1 point of Strength damage on each successful hit. You gain that point of Strength as an enhancement bonus to your Strength score. Strength you siphon from different foes is tracked separately—the total siphoned from each individual foe is considered a separate enhancement bonus to your Strength (maximum +8), and you gain only the highest total.
Rauul 09-15-07, 06:07 AM	can the mindblade of a soulknife be used with weapon finess??
Sjiggie 09-15-07, 06:14 AM	If it is a short sword yes if it is formed into a longsword or bastard sword then no
Callix 09-15-07, 06:39 AM	Question about Strenght of My Enemy: When you trip somebody when you have Strenght of my Enemy running and hit on the touch attack and Follow up doe you drain 2 points of damage and gain a +2 enchantment bonus to your strenght or does it count as 1 hit? The power description says "with each hit", not "whenever it deals damage". As such, Strength of My Enemy drains on any successful attack with the chosen weapon. Note, however, that you can only use unarmed strikes or designated trip weapons to trip people, and only monks can regard unarmed strikes as "weapons". Spiked chains, on the other hand, work fine.
Sjiggie 09-15-07, 06:54 AM	I thought it would work that way but wasn't sure about it. I know that you can only trip with trip weapons or unarmed strikes but I want to use this power for my pychic warrior tripper and he wields a spiked chain :D
TheMagister 09-15-07, 07:19 AM	I thought it would work that way but wasn't sure about it. I know that you can only trip with trip weapons or unarmed strikes but I want to use this power for my pychic warrior tripper and he wields a spiked chain :D Awww, you spoiled the surprise! Tessero Valis is gonna use that trick with the Warmind's sweeping strike ability at level 10. He's gonna ROCK vs. mounted characters and groups of monsters. I'm gonna throw cleave in there, too -- just for grins. And maybe a mighty cleaving weapon. Boggles the mind, really. Mass touch to trip (hits rider, mount, and any adjacent foes)! Blow focus, Mass touch followup with full two-handed power attack (hits the same)! Oop! Killed your mount? CLEAVE! If the pp is available, that's +14 strength gain! On TOP of CoPS! :dancin:
lonewolf 09-15-07, 07:40 AM	Can a creature with Str 0 manifest defensively? My instincts say no, but Im not sure... :bump: I´ve got 2 replies with 2 different opinions on this. Anyone wanna break the tie?
Vathelokai 09-15-07, 08:56 AM	Can a creature with Str 0 manifest defensively? My instincts say no, but Im not sure... Why not? The flavor text defines cast/manifest on the defensive as 'dodging and weaving.' There is no mechanic for it though. With 0 str your helpless. But with manifesting, it's all mental anyway. Of course, it's my question, so that's only a clarification.
hogarth 09-15-07, 08:58 AM	Mass touch to trip (hits rider, mount, and any adjacent foes)! Blow focus, Mass touch followup with full two-handed power attack (hits the same)! Oop! Killed your mount? CLEAVE! If the pp is available, that's +14 strength gain! On TOP of CoPS! :dancin: How do you get +14 strength gain? EDIT: From augmenting it to 12 pp, I guess.
Vathelokai 09-15-07, 09:00 AM	And isn't UnCon coming up soon...?I had an idea for a contest for that. Instead of building characters like we did last year, we could build a 'strategy. For example, the set up is the Harvester3 encounters a mirror of opposition. The two Harveys have to fight it out, and the contestants come up with a plan for winning it.
Sjiggie 09-15-07, 09:06 AM	How do you get +14 strength gain? Does that include a +2 insight bonus? As far as I can tell, the best you can do is +8 (multiple enhancement bonuses don't stack). With augmentation you can increase the maximum gained enchantment bonus to str :D
hogarth 09-15-07, 09:07 AM	With augmentation you can increase the maximum gained enchantment bonus to str :D Yes, I figured it out and edited my post. I find it doubtful that Tessero will reach ML 12 any time soon, though.
SauroGrenom 09-15-07, 09:19 AM	:bump: I´ve got 2 replies with 2 different opinions on this. Anyone wanna break the tie? Umm. Looking over the rules involved, I don't see a reason that having strength is required to manifest defensively. I understand Vath's point from above, but I don't think we should rely on flavor text.
Vathelokai 09-15-07, 11:19 AM	I'm working on a build; a cleric/sorcerer/thurge. I'm trying to decide between phrenic elf or aasimar. I considered elan, but I'd have to make it a cleric/wizard build for that. Anyone have any insight?
whitebaron 09-15-07, 12:41 PM	I'm working on a build; a cleric/sorcerer/thurge. I'm trying to decide between phrenic elf or aasimar. I considered elan, but I'd have to make it a cleric/wizard build for that. Anyone have any insight? since you're loosing enough cl for the theurge build, i'd go aasimar as it is only la+1 not +2. btw: psicrystals don't count as allies concerning ca and xp, right?
Ackermanus 09-15-07, 01:40 PM	Why not?How is going to forums a requirement? 1: Nope. And the 1/3 rule is only a recommendation, anyway. [...] 3: There is no mechanic for your cohort to double as a class feature ally. We talked about allowing it once, but I don't recall that we ever passed that. (If we did, then it's a class feature ally and incurs no penalty.) [...] Well, kind of hard to post your character if you don't, you know, go to the place where you post them heh. Probably didn't make miself clear, I meant going to "these" forums which requires you to register in the wizard's forums. 1: Agh, well, at least I learned I better check every rule our evil DM claims to exist.:embarrass 3: You're right, it is not a rule, only at the DM's option, checked the DMG to be sure (pg. 200 if you would like to see for yourself). Thanks for answering by the way.
hogarth 09-15-07, 01:57 PM	I'm working on a build; a cleric/sorcerer/thurge. I'm trying to decide between phrenic elf or aasimar. I considered elan, but I'd have to make it a cleric/wizard build for that. Anyone have any insight? What level are you thinking of starting at? It makes a big difference, I think.
Salrantol 09-15-07, 02:25 PM	I'm looking for a questlord to run Enoch the Prophet's miniquest next week to find some more undead minions.
templer10 09-15-07, 03:06 PM	I had an idea for a contest for that. Instead of building characters like we did last year, we could build a 'strategy. For example, the set up is the Harvester3 encounters a mirror of opposition. The two Harveys have to fight it out, and the contestants come up with a plan for winning it. Cute idia But why use harvey - cat's isn't even hera anyome - why not let some new blood be the big Bad for once - iam sure some of the peeps here can come up with some VERY Good Builds - i know i can - at least for psionics - then we can let couple of diffrent peeps try them out. p.s. - we can do them at ECL 15 now....
Vathelokai 09-15-07, 03:17 PM	What level are you thinking of starting at? It makes a big difference, I think. Due to my lack of credits, I was intending to start at ecl 3-4. I don't mind loosing at first if it pans out. Cute idia But why use harvey - cat's isn't even hera anyome - why not let some new blood be the big Bad for once - iam sure some of the peeps here can come up with some VERY Good Builds - i know i can - at least for psionics - then we can let couple of diffrent peeps try them out. p.s. - we can do them at ECL 15 now....Harvey is just a good build. It can use any expendables. That would make the strategy portion very difficult to do. Another build would be fine by me. That was just the first to come to mind.
whitebaron 09-15-07, 05:15 PM	rules question: can a blind character do an area-effect spell or power on a specific square, as indicated to him by someone who still sees? are there any restrictions to this?
Erithmu 09-15-07, 05:23 PM	Alright ... been a while since I have done this ... (I think the last was my name's sake) Terlyn Nicous, Brother of Sola, who is my first and horribly tragic character. I haven't finalized equipment, but this is the character that I'm looking to send on Vath's Campaign. I probably should start him at 7th, but I'd like to see if I'm missing anything major here.
SauroGrenom 09-15-07, 06:19 PM	Rith, This guy is looking interesting, but you have a long ways to go still. Your mostly a melee character with the greatsword, but w/o the movement ability to get into melee against a mount or a flying opponent. So you'll need some ranged attacks, or expendables that allow you to stay mobile. I'd suggest a dorje of enlarged crystal shard, or something similar. Also your power choices strike me as subpar. There's a very long buff sequence in that. It looks like you have lots of low level powers to grant you abilities that you'll not be able to use in most battles. The full buff sequence is 6 rounds long... Much too long. You should consider swapping out a few of those for some of the very useful "reaction" powers manifest as an immediate action. For example grip of iron can help you discourage a grappler, or get into a grapple if you need it. Or Defensive precognition can be augmented to have an immediate action manifestation. Or Empty Mind can give a needed +2 bonus on all those will save/or die spells. You have a limited number of pp, so you won't ever want to use all those buffs, but a 1pp reaction is some times life or death. I'd pick a favorite two or three buffs, and mix up the other powers as ways to counter the tactics of others. You have access to both psion and psiwarrior powerstones, so I'd make sure to get a decent selection of those guys to diversify your ability to handle various tactics by others (touchsight and such). Also something to help with damage output or getting into range of attacking your foes is a decent choice. Cheers, Sauro
Rauul 09-15-07, 06:24 PM	rules question: can a blind character do an area-effect spell or power on a specific square, as indicated to him by someone who still sees? are there any restrictions to this? area effect.. on a specific square.. how can he see the specific square? dought it.. honestly.. Blinded The character cannot see. He takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class, loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), moves at half speed, and takes a -4 penalty on Search checks and on most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks. All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Spot checks) automatically fail. All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) to the blinded character. Characters who remain blinded for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them i should keep quiet since this probably effects Shadows fight..
hogarth 09-15-07, 06:34 PM	Also your power choices strike me as subpar. There's a very long buff sequence in that. It looks like you have lots of low level powers to grant you abilities that you'll not be able to use in most battles. The full buff sequence is 6 rounds long... Much too long. You should consider swapping out a few of those for some of the very useful "reaction" powers manifest as an immediate action. For example grip of iron can help you discourage a grappler, or get into a grapple if you need it. Or Defensive precognition can be augmented to have an immediate action manifestation. Or Empty Mind can give a needed +2 bonus on all those will save/or die spells. You have a limited number of pp, so you won't ever want to use all those buffs, but a 1pp reaction is some times life or death. I'd pick a favorite two or three buffs, and mix up the other powers as ways to counter the tactics of others. I think he'll never have more than 2 ML in psion, so Defensive Precognition couldn't be augmented. Grip of Iron isn't a psion power, so it can't replace one of them. Maybe Entangling Ectoplasm or Control Light might be situationally useful.
templer10 09-15-07, 06:43 PM	rules question: can a blind character do an area-effect spell or power on a specific square, as indicated to him by someone who still sees? are there any restrictions to this? i dont think it's really covered in the Rules precisly - In a normal combat situation in which the map is unfamiliar it's harder but the situation here is diffrent - every fighter knows what arena he is in so if he gets told to throw firabll at Grid location (X,Y) and he is Told it's in Z direction K feet away i would say he has a reasonable chance to hit - i would probably do a ranged attack with misses going into splash weapon rules of course this is purly what i would do if i didnt find a rule that cover this (and i dont think there is) since i dont think Blind should mean helpless.
whitebaron 09-15-07, 06:48 PM	i dont think it's really covered in the Rules precisly - In a normal combat situation in which the map is unfamiliar it's harder but the situation here is diffrent - every fighter knows what arena he is in so if he gets told to throw firabll at Grid location (X,Y) and he is Told it's in Z direction K feet away i would say he has a reasonable chance to hit - i would probably do a ranged attack with misses going into splash weapon rules of course this is purly what i would do if i didnt find a rule that cover this (and i dont think there is) since i dont think Blind should mean helpless. its not helpless, it's pitch black lighting. ;) i found following rules: line of effect. - says darkness etc. doesnt stop you from having line of effect. and you only need line of effect to cast a spell somewhere, right? Line of Effect: A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It’s like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it’s not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight. You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast. A burst, cone, cylinder, or emanation spell affects only an area, creatures, or objects to which it has line of effect from its origin (a spherical burst’s center point, a cone-shaped burst’s starting point, a cylinder’s circle, or an emanation’s point of origin). An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell’s line of effect. Such an opening means that the 5-foot length of wall containing the hole is no longer considered a barrier for purposes of a spell’s line of effect.
hogarth 09-15-07, 06:51 PM	rules question: can a blind character do an area-effect spell or power on a specific square, as indicated to him by someone who still sees? are there any restrictions to this? I think our ruling is yes, you can aim at any square you want on the map -- even blindfolded -- as if you had some kind of photographic memory.
whitebaron 09-15-07, 07:16 PM	Yeah, let's clean that up a little. Q: What are your options for attacking a character hiding in an area that grants total concealment, such as Obscuring Mist or a character successfully hiding within Deeper Darkness? A: If using an area-effect spell or ability, you may aim the spell at any point to which you have line of effect. If using a weapon or weapon-like spell, you can designate a square as being the subject of your attack; your chances of choosing the correct square will be determined by how you phrase the tactic and how large your opponent is compared to the area of effect (although note that since spells are centered on an intersection, even if you choose to aim at the center, you will have to choose one of the four squares that touches that center). You cannot use targeted spells or abilities at all unless you have line of sight. Does that cover all the bases? i only found this. which is about a similar, but not identical case.
NiQil 09-15-07, 08:56 PM	From the Court Decisions: Q: Are there any limitations on attacking characters who currently have total concealment? A: If you are using an area-effect spell/power or ability, you may aim the spell/power at any point to which you have line of effect. Your chances of choosing the correct square will be determined by how you phrase the tactic and how large your opponent is compared to the area of effect (note that since spells are centered on an intersection, even if you choose to aim at the center, you will have to choose one of the four squares that touches that center). If you are using a weapon or a spell/power that requires an attack roll to hit (such as rays or touch attacks), you can designate a square as being the subject of your attack. You cannot use targeted spells or abilities not requiring an attack roll at all unless you have line of sight.
hogarth 09-15-07, 09:17 PM	Due to my lack of credits, I was intending to start at ecl 3-4. I don't mind loosing at first if it pans out. What level would you like to be effective by (if you don't mind being ineffective at the start)? At later levels, the phrenic template will become more useful, but it probably won't be pulling its weight for quite a while. What's your goal with this character? There are a few possibilities: "I haven't ever played a mystic theurge and I'd like to try it out." - In this case, I'd try the build that gets there the fastest (probably the elan wizard/cleric). "I'd like a good build that casts both cleric and wizard spells." - I'd probably go with a straight cleric with the Magic domain (although that's pretty tired) or a wizard with one level of cleric (since you'll probably be using a whole bunch of scrolls at any rate). "I want to play something totally different." - Then pick whatever you think is the most fun and/or original.
Erithmu 09-15-07, 11:26 PM	@Sauro: Well final build is going to be Monk3/Psi2/WM8/Eloc7 I'm planning on him going on the campaign to negate most of my fighting issues for the time being, I think he will still be effective in helping his team out. Dest. Dissonance is a no save sicken effect for 2 rnds that I was going to slap into a powerstoring sword. To be honest many of the buffs are situational. I should just get IA in a stone and use the 'manifesting powers from a stone' rule as my WM levels go up. That was the other reasons for my selections of psion powers. that is as high as I'm going to go in terms of ML. All the Eloc levels are going to go towards Warmind. Def Precog doesn't stack w/ defensive chain in the AC department, Although the saves would be nice, but I don't think I'm going to have too much of a problem in that department. I'm not 100% sold on the precognition and Off. Pres powers ... but not sure what else I should get that are still useful powers at low ML. I am planning on picking up a powerstone of Elfsight (1 hr/level duration) and manifest that power from stone to deal with darkness. Ranged/Flying: Right now I don't even have martial weapon prof (I actually get that from Eloc1 which is why I'm wondering if I should start at 7th), I'll also probably pick up winged boots at some point, I just can't front the cash for them. Buff Cycle: Believe me ... I am one of the few on this board that hates a long buff cycle. I'm still working out most of the details of stuff. @hogarth: Entangling Ecto ... interesting ...
Vathelokai 09-16-07, 12:02 AM	What level would you like to be effective by (if you don't mind being ineffective at the start)? At later levels, the phrenic template will become more useful, but it probably won't be pulling its weight for quite a while. What's your goal with this character? There are a few possibilities: "I haven't ever played a mystic theurge and I'd like to try it out." - In this case, I'd try the build that gets there the fastest (probably the elan wizard/cleric). "I'd like a good build that casts both cleric and wizard spells." - I'd probably go with a straight cleric with the Magic domain (although that's pretty tired) or a wizard with one level of cleric (since you'll probably be using a whole bunch of scrolls at any rate). "I want to play something totally different." - Then pick whatever you think is the most fun and/or original. I'm leaning toward option three. Here's the thought process. Denshi was my first character here. I had an RP progression in mind for him, but not a build; only aim was to get eldritch knight eventually. I made him too broad based, covering combat and non-combat bases. His money has been spent badly. So I figured I'd rebuild him. I thought about eldritch knight for a while, and decided it just wasn't right for my play style. I remembered that I always wanted to try a thurge, and the idea grew on me. I had been thinking of a race change already, to fit eldritch knight better, and thought that a race change would help fix the multi-attribute-dependency problems of thurge. Themes for Denshi: -Craftsman (will be taking the cleric artifice domain, and the craft wonder, craft arms/armor, and craft construct feats; will put one rank in every craft skill I can think of). -Religious (no matter the class or race he has, RP-wise he's a paladin of Boccob). Stuff I'd like to try: -No expendables: a challenge for me. I've seen it done, but I've always relied heavy on them. -firearms: just seems fun. A couple bane guns and later on some brilliant ammo.... -planar turning: since undead don't get all the play they deserve, but the summons do, I thought I'd try getting some mileage from turn checks. Sorcerer or Wizard? -Sorcerer can get the still spell metamagic and still be useful in full plate. The spells become longer to cast, but between the feat and a rod of still spells to use on the first lv stuff, it would be manageable. The charisma is good for save DCs and plays into the cleric turning. -Wizard gets extra skill points from higher int, more spell options, more spell slots (if specialist), and a faster progression for spell-casting. -I'd like to go sorcerer, but I'm having trouble seeing it as a viable option. Maybe I'm just too used to wizards. Secondly, I need some extra skill points to make the build work, and going sorcerer means spreading my attribute points thinner. Possible builds (none are set in stone): -aasimar cleric5/sorc4/thurge10 -phrenic elf cleric3/sorc4/thurge10/heirophant1 -elan cleric3/wiz3/thurge10/heirophant2/archmage2 My general questions being, which looks better? Am I missing something? Would any of these builds 'pan out'? When?
Vathelokai 09-16-07, 12:03 AM	Well final build is going to be Monk3/Psi2/WM8/Eloc7 So why Seer?
SauroGrenom 09-16-07, 12:19 AM	Kracknol is being refurbished. I started with a rather modest goal... simply to drop 3 level of ranger for extra levels in psiwarrior. As I was working through that, I realized that the whole basis of the character was defunct since it hadn't been revised from before the origin of the 3FC. Kracknol was built to be a super melee alpha strike character. He was duergar for the 1/day invisibility and expansion, he had psionic weapon, deep crystal, greater psionic weapon, powerstoring and dissolving weapon as prebuffs that would be going at the beginning of every battle... He was all set to dish crazy damage, and he went to ECL10 with a good record all before the 3C was started. He was half ranger, because he could control lots of allies with his skill points, and everything else was about getting more damage into a single hit. As he came out of the IMT, I was relying on allies to get mobility into melee. When the allies got nerfed I noticed the need for a new strategy for getting into melee. I changed a bunch to deal with that. I also tried to cope with the effect of the 3FC on his buffs, but it was not enough. In recent weeks I've been struggling with the character since it's very focused, and not well built for the 3FC. Any time that a situation arises, Kracknol has only one way to deal with it... ie smash with flail as best possible given the situation. In many situations, he simply cannot hit, and so he fails... Now I've changed a few things, and I'm inviting comment to see if I missed anything. The basic idea is to switch over from power storing and Greater Psionic weapon to deep impact/suppression/powerattack as the main "alpha strike". These are things I can use in all battles, and there's no need to worry about the 3FC burning up all my abilities. Also since there's no desire to have skill based allies, I can dump the ranger levels. The 1/day PLA's are not useful in a 3FC, so I'll drop the duergar race, and the effect is a total +4 ML with about 3x the total pp/day and twice the total known powers. Extra powers, feats, pp/day and such all buy flexibility. I'm not yet decided on how to spend the last few gp on expendables, but otherwise I think it's close to finished. I'd appreciate some comments and suggestions on needed expendables.
Erithmu 09-16-07, 12:49 AM	Why Seer: ... not sure ... I kinda liked the Destiny Dissonance as a no save ... I'm kinda non-expendable over here (and I could djore/wands as expendables) ... and none of the low level powers seemed interesting from a 'I should take this power' view ... that and spot and listen are class skills for seer. @Vath, Re: MT: Turning only really works if you go straight cleric since it is based upon class level. Firearms might be rough to fit in with the feats ... I think you will also have more spells than you know what to do with anyways. I think you are going to spread yourself too thin again. I would probably stay wizard as I think you will need the skill points from int and that also helps your crafting skills.
Eamane 09-16-07, 04:37 AM	Would the Enhanced Undead necromancer variant 'work' with the Skeletal Minion variant? (here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=9901957&postcount=29)) And if so, the cost to have both of these available for use is 20 credits, right?
whitebaron 09-16-07, 05:52 AM	From the Court Decisions: as it was under the combat abilities, and not magic section, i missed it. thnx for looking it up for me. Would the Enhanced Undead necromancer variant 'work' with the Skeletal Minion variant? (here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=9901957&postcount=29)) And if so, the cost to have both of these available for use is 20 credits, right? well, i don't think it would work, since you don't create this undead. actually, you perform a ritual (where it is not stated how you do it) and gain an undead, even if you never had a create undead spell... the costs would be right. :)
Zevox 09-16-07, 10:14 AM	Hey guys, As I'm sure a few of you have noticed, I've been absent here quite a lot lately. Well, as I'm also sure some could've guessed, school is to blame - its eating up far more of my time this year than it did the past two. So much that I think its best if I "officially" take a leave of absence for a while. I just don't have the time to spare for this place anymore - perhaps if I used all my free time here I could run a character or two, but I'd really rather not with how little I'm getting now. Certainly even then I wouldn't be up to Elder duties, or following things nearly as well as usually do in general. Perhaps sometime during the semester things will slow down and I'll find a window to come back for (though I wouldn't bet on it, if things are this bad after a week and a half). Perhaps I'll be gone until Christmas break, or will only get to pop in for a brief conversation every so often until then. In any event, its been great playing with you all, and I intend to and look forward to returning. @ Telin - I know this is probably going to be awkward, but is there any graceful way to remove Nimbus from that campaign? I've barely been able to keep up with the RP, and sure can't keep up with the battles anymore. I really regret asking this, especially after spending all summer building up credits to activate him, but I don't have much of a choice. Zevox
Abyssal Stalker 09-16-07, 10:23 AM	Good luck with school and everything, hope to see you back some day!
Ackermanus 09-16-07, 12:19 PM	I know it is possible to, in a team, craft items for your teammates, although they pay the (reduced) cost. However, is it possible to do this at creation? I am going to create a team with a friend (maybe more, still not sure), so knowing this would help. I assume it is not possible, since you have to post the characters before pming Pitlords to announce the team, but it can't hurt to ask.
whitebaron 09-16-07, 12:51 PM	I know it is possible to, in a team, craft items for your teammates, although they pay the (reduced) cost. However, is it possible to do this at creation? I am going to create a team with a friend (maybe more, still not sure), so knowing this would help. I assume it is not possible, since you have to post the characters before pming Pitlords to announce the team, but it can't hurt to ask. you can share items before the fights begin. so yes, you can craft for your allies. i'm still not sure about the value of those items, though. you can't craft for free with their money, obviously.
Nurlithion 09-16-07, 01:41 PM	Little doubt here. When I want to have more than 1 active character, do I have to spend just 1 credit, or 1 credit per week?
Sjiggie 09-16-07, 01:45 PM	You can have 2 characters active every week each week that you have more than 2 characters active you spend 1 credit for each character active above 2 -Sjiggie
hogarth 09-16-07, 01:53 PM	Little doubt here. When I want to have more than 1 active character, do I have to spend just 1 credit, or 1 credit per week? Every week, the big guy will check to see if you have more than two characters active (active means actually doing something, like fighting in the arena or going on a miniquest -- which counts as two character activations). If so, he'll charge you 1 credit for each additional character.
Nurlithion 09-16-07, 02:03 PM	Okay, thanks for the info.
Ackermanus 09-16-07, 02:36 PM	you can share items before the fights begin. so yes, you can craft for your allies. i'm still not sure about the value of those items, though. you can't craft for free with their money, obviously. Ok, thanks. I'll create the character assuming that I can do it. If not, then editing it won't be too hard, just lower ac and possibly weight for a bit, and gain a bit of gold, no major changes, since it was for an armour.
Eluria 09-16-07, 06:24 PM	@ Zevox: good luck with school; real life priorities always have to come first; hope you can come back soon! @ Rest of the world: I have a few questions (note: I'm working 14 hour night shifts this week, and am entirely sleep deprived, so these may be obvious and if so, I'm sorry) 1) I know it's hard to get of a sneak attack with spells, with the listen DC as it's houseruled here. I know McJ brought that up for discussion in the council I believe, but I don't know if there was a new consensus. Given that, is it possible to snipe with using wands/dorjes? I was thinking of making a rogue who uses Dorje's of crystal shard as his main attack (with SA and Psionic shot damage providing some ummph), but I realize now that may not be possible. 2) If someone were an Aasimar Battlesorc with Alter self, and they shifted from Medium sized outsider into mephit form, what would happen with their armor? Would it just be subsumed into the new form, or grant penalties, or something? Thanks guys!!
TelinArtho 09-16-07, 10:25 PM	@Zevox - I'll be able to work something out - and if worse comes to worse - I'll just have one less for the rest of the campaign. No need to stress yourself out about it on my account. To the people in the campaign - he'll finish out the current fight - but someone should take over actions for him. I'll be back tomorrow to get things moving once again.
Vathelokai 09-16-07, 10:35 PM	1) I know it's hard to get of a sneak attack with spells, with the listen DC as it's houseruled here. I know McJ brought that up for discussion in the council I believe, but I don't know if there was a new consensus. Given that, is it possible to snipe with using wands/dorjes? I was thinking of making a rogue who uses Dorje's of crystal shard as his main attack (with SA and Psionic shot damage providing some ummph), but I realize now that may not be possible.You end up having to make two checks. With a wand, you have to say the command word (so even a metamagic silent spell wont help). Dorjes have a command thought, so dont have that problem, but I think they still have a display. Either way, when you try to use the snipe action, you make a hide and a listen check, both at -20, to see if you stay hidden. 2) If someone were an Aasimar Battlesorc with Alter self, and they shifted from Medium sized outsider into mephit form, what would happen with their armor? Would it just be subsumed into the new form, or grant penalties, or something? Thanks guys!! The armor would be subsumed into your form and you would loose the bonus. Note, you would also need to carry extra weapons that were smaller. The only way around this is to manifest compression (or expansion) to change your size and the size of your weapons first. Note that the wizard version of reduce person doesn't work on outsiders.
SauroGrenom 09-16-07, 11:27 PM	Zevox, I hope we get to see you back again some time soon. We all really appreciate your moderate voice in council, and spirit of volunteerism in all other areas. Cheers, Sauro
hogarth 09-17-07, 08:07 AM	@lonewolf, There's no such subtype as "Guardinal" in the core rules, and avorals don't get a +4 on saves vs. poison.
Sjiggie 09-17-07, 08:20 AM	Yes there is check MM page 310 it gives a +4 on saves vs posion.
lonewolf 09-17-07, 08:52 AM	As he said. If they conflict, MM sources supercede SRD sources in CoCo.
hogarth 09-17-07, 09:14 AM	Yes there is check MM page 310 it gives a +4 on saves vs posion. I stand corrected -- I was looking at the Rules of the Game article on Polymorph which lists which subtype abilities are granted (Guardinal isn't listed for whatever reason): http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040525a
TelinArtho 09-17-07, 12:53 PM	Just bumping this up... was kind of hoping to get some comment on mercenaries out of it... Note: I made this list in accordance with a proposal I sent to MWB to get mercenaries more traffic. He has not yet approved anything I have included below, but I wanted to see if the even a small portion of the populace of the CoCo was interested, or if there were comments to be had. Approved Mercenaries: Below is the list of the current approved mercenaries. Note that this links to the Mercenaries of Gladius thread and that the original proposed version might be significantly different than the approved version. As more mercenaries are approved, this list will be broken out by ECL. [ECL 1] Barak Wolfskinner (Human Barbarian 1) [ECL 1] Jazer Ik-Ahaman (Human Druid 1) [ECL 2] Trillian Tallbow (Elven Fighter 2) [ECL 3] Grauerholz (Gnome Illusionist 3) [ECL 4] Hauber Bulwark (Dwarf Cleric 4) [ECL 5] Simaro Arnerl (Elf Transmuter 5) [ECL 6] Xander (Half-Giant Psiwarrior 5) [ECL 7] Bobo the Brute (Ogre Barbarian 1) Proposed Mercenaries: Below is the list of all of the proposed mercenaries, including ones that have already been approved (marked in italics) and ones that are not complete. In order to get more mercenaries approved, please ask for specific mercenaries. Once one is asked for, I will perform a thorough audit (to make sure the mercenary is valid), compare the mercenary to other active mercenaries, and finally make a decision to approve/deny the mercenary. In general, if a mercenary's role is covered within +/- 1 ECL, then the mercenary won't likely be approved. Exceptions will occur at the lower ECLs. Also - if there is enough desire, the same method could be done to suggest a replacement for a currently active mercenary. Replacements should be within +/- 1 ECL of the current mercenary and fulfill the same role but in a significantly different way. As more mercenaries are proposed, I will keep this list up to date as it is needed. I will also find a permanent home for it in the future - just posting it in the tavern for the present time... Lastly, I have noted many of the below as "complete" - no one should take this statement as an indication that I have already performed an audit on the character in question. Many might still have issues - I just noted "complete" when it seemed to me that the character was mostly done. ECL1 Barak Wolfskinner Human Barbarian 1 (ECL1): complete, approved. Jazer Ik-Ahaman Human Druid 1 (ECL1): complete, approved. Aramil Kobold-Slayer Elf Ranger 1 (ECL1): complete, <not approved> Lawrence Gaius Human Paladin 1 (ECL1): complete, <not approved> Orrid Nuts Halfling Rogue 1 (ECL1): complete, <not approved> Gunnor Thwappen Forest Gnome Sorcerer 1 (ECL1): complete, <not approved> Liel Turom Maenad Bard 1 (ECL1): complete, <not approved> Evel Aol Human Cleric 1 (ECL1): complete, <not approved> Angela Bairns Human Cleric 1 (ECL1): complete, <not approved> Hunter Theor Human Rogue 1 (ECL1): complete, <not approved> Zane Therapodulous Human Bard 1 (ECL1): complete, <not approved> ECL2 Trillian Tallbow Elf Fighter 2 (ECL2): complete, approved. Barsimmon Oridio Wood Elf Ranger 2 (ECL2): complete, <not approved> Ohko Ono Maenad Barbarian 1/Druid 1 (ECL2): complete, <not approved> Turen Gill Human Rogue 1/Fighter 1 (ECL2): complete, <not approved> Bo Bert/Fo Bert Human Rogue 2 (ECL2 each): complete, <not approved> Don Relik Human Cleric 2 (ECL2): complete, <not approved> Private 618 Hobgoblin Fighter 1 (ECL2): complete, <not approved> ECL3 Manard Greenfist Wood Elf Monk 3 (ECL3): complete, <not approved> Yojimbo the Ronin Human Ex-monk 1/Fighter 2 (ECL3): complete, <not approved> Grauerholz Forest Gnome Illusionist 3 (ECL3): complete, approved. Sharellym Vlaln Drow Elf Cleric 1 (ECL3): complete, <not approved> Kemman Tovaritsch Elan Transmuter 3 (ECL3): complete, <not approved> Cliffbearer Half-Giant Ex-monk 1/Barbarian 1 (ECL3): complete, <not approved> Belark Methren Duergar (psionic) Psychic Warrior 2 (ECL3): complete, <not approved> Bedina Cassan Xeph Monk 3 (ECL3): complete, <not approved> Bedina Cassan Xeph Ex-Barbarian 1/Fighter 2 (ECL3): complete, <not approved> Hansel Human Ranger 2/Fighter 1 (ECL3): complete, <not approved> Alden Fosyth Human Cleric 3 (ECL3): complete, <not approved> ECL4 Sparks Goblin Expert 4 (ECL4): <invalid> Odruke Pureheart Human (Fallen) Paladin 4 (ECL4): complete, <not approved> Shanarra Wood Elf Fighter 2/Bard 2 (ECL4): complete, <not approved> Alex the Hunter Human Ranger 1/Fighter 2/Druid 1 (ECL4): complete, <not approved> Hauber Bulwark Mountain Dwarf Cleric 4 (ECL4): complete, approved. Alicia Human Wilder 4 (ECL4): complete, <not approved> ECL5 Andarian Greenleaf Venerable Human Druid 5 (ECL5): <incomplete> Kalor Middle-aged Sun Elf (not a valid race) Abjurer 5 (ECL5): <invalid> Simaro Arnerl Gray Elf Transmuter 5 (ECL5): complete, approved. Blaergh Ghoul (ECL5): complete, <not approved> ECL6 Xander the Dauntless Half-Giant Psychic Warrior 5 (ECL6): complete, approved. Ruffrrn Blink Dog (ECL6): complete, <not approved> Johan the "Long Knife" Human Rogue 6 (ECL6): complete, <not approved> Glittershell Dromite Cleric 4/Psychic Warrior 1 (ECL6): <incomplete> Bravo, the Exaggerator Half-Orc Barbarian 1/Bard 5 (ECL6): complete, <not approved> ECL7 Bobo the Brute Ogre Barbarian 1 (ECL7): complete, approved. Hanna the Wise Centaur Druid 1 (ECL7): complete, <not approved> ECL8 Calliandra "Cali" Talongate Human Abjurer (UA Variant) 8 (ECL8): complete, <not approved> Szaal'zass the Shaman Lizardfolk Cleric 5 (ECL8): complete, <not approved> ECL9 Destra Stormwind Human Druid 8/Barbarian 1 (ECL9): complete, <not approved> <No Name> <incomplete> <Nothing> <Nothing> <No Name> Gray Elf Wizard 1 (ECL1): <incomplete>
whitebaron 09-17-07, 01:05 PM	three questions: 1) concerning parties in coco: can you already craft the starting items of your teammate, if both start a new char? 2) concerning upgrading items and credits: well, let's say i build an amulet of wisdom, +1, paying credits, upgrade it to +2, later on upgrade to +3. - is there any refund on the +1 upgrading to the +3? or do i need to pay it every time i do it. so an item going the full way from +1 to +6 is 15 credits? 3) rules question concerning insanity score (cleric madness domain) : do levels of loremaster stack with the cleric's levels concerning insanity score?
Hirumajoe 09-17-07, 01:07 PM	Kracknol is being refurbished. The basic idea is to switch over from power storing and Greater Psionic weapon to deep impact/suppression/powerattack as the main "alpha strike". These are things I can use in all battles, and there's no need to worry about the 3FC burning up all my abilities. Also since there's no desire to have skill based allies, I can dump the ranger levels. The 1/day PLA's are not useful in a 3FC, so I'll drop the duergar race, and the effect is a total +4 ML with about 3x the total pp/day and twice the total known powers. I definitely agree the deep impact/power attack combo is the way to go. Also Suppression plus Deep Impact is very scary against Gish. Extra powers, feats, pp/day and such all buy flexibility. I'm not yet decided on how to spend the last few gp on expendables, but otherwise I think it's close to finished. I'd appreciate some comments and suggestions on needed expendables. Power stone of Touchsight maybe. For the occassional stealth build. Or perhaps trade the Force screen power out for Touchsight and grab a Djore of Force Screen [ML 2]? Other fun stuff: Powerstone of Bite of the wolf. Combined with Psionic's lion charge (or just full attacks) and a huge expansion its an extra 2d6+1/2 str damage at BAB -5 to hit. Lasts 10 rounds for a mere 25 gp., 20 rounds for 50 gp. Also, investing in a cheap, non-magical ranged weapon might not be a bad idea. Mighty +6 Composite Longbow or something for 1,000 gp or so. Just because it opens up another option.
TelinArtho 09-17-07, 01:13 PM	three questions: 1) concerning parties in coco: can you already craft the starting items of your teammate, if both start a new char? 2) concerning upgrading items and credits: well, let's say i build an amulet of wisdom, +1, paying credits, upgrade it to +2, later on upgrade to +3. - is there any refund on the +1 upgrading to the +3? or do i need to pay it every time i do it. so an item going the full way from +1 to +6 is 15 credits? 3) rules question concerning insanity score (cleric madness domain) : do levels of loremaster stack with the cleric's levels concerning insanity score? 1. I believe that was answered just this past week wasn't it? Yes - if they are both starting characters, they can craft items for their teammates before their career in the CoCo starts. 2. If you pay credits for an periapt of wisdom +1 and upgrade it to +2 later - there's no additional credit cost. If you upgrade it from +1 to +3, yes - you have to pay an additional 5 credits. Yes - if you did do every number from +1 to +6 it would cost a total of 15 credits. 3. As stated in the madness domain (and for most domain effects based on level), it is based on the cleric level, not total class levels nor caster level. So a 10th level cleric of Madness/Strength/Loremaster 10 would have a madness score of 5 and a Strength boost of +10 enh for 1 round per day, but would have a CL of 20.
whitebaron 09-17-07, 01:42 PM	1. I believe that was answered just this past week wasn't it? Yes - if they are both starting characters, they can craft items for their teammates before their career in the CoCo starts. thnx for the other answers. yes, this question was posted, but no real reply was given, except for mine, which stated that i don't know for sure how it is handled before the first fight. :)
MindWandererB 09-17-07, 04:10 PM	I definitely agree the deep impact/power attack combo is the way to go. Also Suppression plus Deep Impact is very scary against Gish.Just remember that refocusing provokes, after the initial alpha strike. A reach weapon+Expansion can keep this a viable option after impact.
Rauul 09-17-07, 04:40 PM	what caster level is an assassin.. 1 or what... i see nothing in their desc.. Also can an Assassin prebuff poison for their cohort?
Rauul 09-17-07, 04:46 PM	what caster level is an assassin.. 1 or what... i see nothing in their desc.. Also can an Assassin prebuff poison for their cohort?
TelinArtho 09-17-07, 04:51 PM	Since it doesn't specify otherwise - the CL of an assassin is equal to the number of levels in that class. Assassin 4 is CL4, etc.
Rauul 09-17-07, 04:53 PM	Since it doesn't specify otherwise - the CL of an assassin is equal to the number of levels in that class. Assassin 4 is CL4, etc. thanks... needed to know for scrolls :)
TelinArtho 09-17-07, 04:54 PM	On the second question - yes - you can prebuff the poison on your cohort as long as you can do so safely.
Rauul 09-17-07, 04:59 PM	On the second question - yes - you can prebuff the poison on your cohort as long as you can do so safely. thanks... and now after all these months it seems as if i messed up my preform skill to be eligible for shadowdancer.. guess i have to take another bard level for 5 levels of dance... mutter about them updating the SRD.. edit=>shocked that noone noticed shadows Hps were off by 3 less than he should of had..
TelinArtho 09-17-07, 05:11 PM	thanks... and now after all these months it seems as if i messed up my preform skill to be eligible for shadowdancer.. guess i have to take another bard level for 5 levels of dance... mutter about them updating the SRD.. edit=>shocked that noone noticed shadows Hps were off by 3 less than he should of had.. Meh - I noticed that Dentik's HPs were off when I activated him this week... I have no idea how long they have been wrong for...
hogarth 09-17-07, 05:13 PM	What's the penalty for trying to ride an untrained mount? I noticed that Samuel Highground has a pegasus that he didn't train (either by paying an NPC for the training or by training it himself).
lonewolf 09-17-07, 05:17 PM	AFAIK, Intelligent mounts dont have to be trained, have they?
hogarth 09-17-07, 05:19 PM	AFAIK, Intelligent mounts dont have to be trained, have they? At least some of them do (for whatever reason): Training A Pegasus Although intelligent, a pegasus requires training before it can bear a rider in combat. To be trained, a pegasus must have a friendly attitude toward the trainer (this can be achieved through a successful Diplomacy check). Training a friendly pegasus requires six weeks of work and a DC 25 Handle Animal check. Riding a pegasus requires an exotic saddle. A pegasus can fight while carrying a rider, but the rider cannot also attack unless he or she succeeds on a Ride check.
templer10 09-17-07, 05:21 PM	AFAIK, Intelligent mounts dont have to be trained, have they? actually they do- it even say so in the rules of gladius.
TelinArtho 09-17-07, 05:30 PM	Anyone have any reservations against Deepcrystal Nets? Deep crystal says that anything can be made out of deep crystal (hence the presence of Deep crystal bows and such). Normal stats for a net is hardness 0, 5hp. Rope has 2hp/inch - so a net has the equivalence of 2.5 inches of thickness. With deepcrystal, the hardness would increase up to 10 and the hp would jump up to 75... So... anyone have a problem with it? (just looking at options and would rather work out the kinks before exposing the character...)
Callix 09-17-07, 05:41 PM	What's the penalty for trying to ride an untrained mount? I noticed that Samuel Highground has a pegasus that he didn't train (either by paying an NPC for the training or by training it himself). If the mount's not trained for combat riding, you must make a DC 20 Ride check as a move action each round to control it in combat. If you fail the check, you can do nothing but stop your mount fleeing this turn. If you succeed, you can take your standard action normally. There is no "ride" trick, so physical ability and willingness would cover whether you could actually mount the pegasus, but they do need to be trained in some elements of the combat riding trick package.
lonewolf 09-17-07, 05:43 PM	crap. @Telin: any chance to retroactively train that pegasus since that obviously was a mistake? I would understand if you say no though...
TelinArtho 09-17-07, 05:45 PM	Assuming Samuel has the money - I don't see any issue with it (clearly an oversight - not intentional).
lonewolf 09-17-07, 05:49 PM	Assuming Samuel has the money - I don't see any issue with it (clearly an oversight - not intentional). He does. thanks!
hogarth 09-17-07, 05:49 PM	The mathematics of object hp seem a bit weird. For instance, a light hafted weapon has 2 hp. Wood has 10 hp/inch. So a handaxe's haft is 0.2 inches thick? I don't like it personally, but there are some people who don't mind this kind of reverse-engineering reasoning. Anyone have any reservations against Deepcrystal Nets? Deep crystal says that anything can be made out of deep crystal (hence the presence of Deep crystal bows and such). Normal stats for a net is hardness 0, 5hp. Rope has 2hp/inch - so a net has the equivalence of 2.5 inches of thickness. With deepcrystal, the hardness would increase up to 10 and the hp would jump up to 75... So... anyone have a problem with it? (just looking at options and would rather work out the kinks before exposing the character...)
TelinArtho 09-17-07, 05:52 PM	Well - I wasn't really looking for something with that much - really I just wanted a net that was VERY difficult to cut through. I actually wanted something with more than 20 hardness - but this was the cheapest alternative I could come up with. I don't necessarily think it is right - but more on the matter of deepcrystal being allowed on "anything." That I think is where the problem really is coming from...
Sjiggie 09-17-07, 05:54 PM	I don't think that a deepcrystal net would work because the crystal is not as flexibel as a rope one so cannot effectivly entangle a creature.
hogarth 09-17-07, 05:56 PM	I don't think that a deepcrystal net would work because the crystal is not as flexibel as a rope one so cannot effectivly entangle a creature. Let's not bring logic into it. :) The rules say "Any item could potentially be made out of deep crystal" even though that doesn't really make much sense.
TelinArtho 09-17-07, 05:57 PM	I don't think that a deepcrystal net would work because the crystal is not as flexibel as a rope one so cannot effectivly entangle a creature. Whether it is logical or realistic is not the issue. The rules explicitly state that all materials can be replaced with Deep Crystal and have the same properties as the regular item. Like I said - I'm mostly looking for a relatively cheap, but effective net. I don't particularly like using the psionic cheese that is out there - but without giving it a +2 enh bonus, I don't see much other option... If it comes out that we should nerf deep crystal - I would be fine with that too... since it makes bows have crazy hp as well...
Sjiggie 09-17-07, 06:00 PM	Let's not bring logic into it. :) The rules say "Any item could potentially be made out of deep crystal" even though that doesn't really make much sense. Yes you're right logic and DnD don't work together ;) Interesting is that mundane crystal says it replaces any metal part in a weapon or armor and while deep crystal states that any item can be made from deep crystal :thinks:
TelinArtho 09-17-07, 06:01 PM	As for hogarth's original reservation - it is odd... A light, metal-hafted weapon has 10hp (1/3rd of an inch), but a light hafted weapon only has 2hp (1/5th of an inch). A one-handed, metal hafted weapon has 20hp (2/3rds of an inch), but a one-handed, hafted weapon has 5hp (1/2 of an inch).
Rauul 09-17-07, 06:54 PM	As for hogarth's original reservation - it is odd... A light, metal-hafted weapon has 10hp (1/3rd of an inch), but a light hafted weapon only has 2hp (1/5th of an inch). A one-handed, metal hafted weapon has 20hp (2/3rds of an inch), but a one-handed, hafted weapon has 5hp (1/2 of an inch). use Crystal, Mundane Mundane crystal can be used in place of metal in weapons or armor, using a special forging process. The fortified crystal possesses the properties of a similar masterwork steel weapon or armor, except for visual appearance. Weapons and armor made of mundane crystal cost the same amount to make as their masterwork counterparts. Any item could potentially be made with mundane crystal. Because mundane crystal armor is considered to be made out of metal, druids cannot wear it. Mundane crystal properly forged has 25 hit points per inch of thickness and a hardness of 8. Basicly your making a Net of Cable... crystal cable..
Rauul 09-17-07, 07:02 PM	Btw i have updated Shadows (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=11803386&postcount=1093) Character sheet.. Am shocked that over 3 levels i have not gained a failure tag on a weak bard.. Am still working on ideas for his Leadership Cohort.. Anyone have any idea please send to me.. I am Correct that Cohorts with Scribe scroll or Imprint stone can't make Scrolls or powerstones at 1/2 cost can they...
TelinArtho 09-17-07, 08:42 PM	@Rauul - you missed the first line of the mundane crystal entry: Mundane crystal can be used in place of metal in weapons or armor, using a special forging process Any item could potentially be made out of deep crystal. So you can't make a mundane crystal bow, but you can make a deep crystal bow.Likewise for the net I am proposing...
NiQil 09-17-07, 08:59 PM	Due to unforseen circumstances (namely my internet going wonky on me), I will not be able to update the prison this week. I will catch everything up this weekend as I have in the past when similar circumstances arose. Anyone currently in prison gets a free pass for pairings this week.
SauroGrenom 09-17-07, 10:40 PM	I definitely agree the deep impact/power attack combo is the way to go. Also Suppression plus Deep Impact is very scary against Gish. Power stone of Touchsight maybe. For the occassional stealth build. Or perhaps trade the Force screen power out for Touchsight and grab a Djore of Force Screen [ML 2]? Other fun stuff: Powerstone of Bite of the wolf. Combined with Psionic's lion charge (or just full attacks) and a huge expansion its an extra 2d6+1/2 str damage at BAB -5 to hit. Lasts 10 rounds for a mere 25 gp., 20 rounds for 50 gp. Also, investing in a cheap, non-magical ranged weapon might not be a bad idea. Mighty +6 Composite Longbow or something for 1,000 gp or so. Just because it opens up another option.Thanks for the comments. Touchsight is on the way, but psiwarriors don't get the power normally. Nor can they use it as a stone. I can get it with expanded knowledge, but I need to be able to manifest 4th level powers first. For a psiwarrior that's ML 10, and still a level away at 12hd. Kracknol had a backup weapon for a long time, and it was never used unless he was loosing the battle. I see no decent reason to spend 1000gp on another way to loose. Force screen self manifest is only 1pp, and has a much better ML. So I think I'll stick with self manifest ones. The build has always done best when there was a minimum of buffs and he could push melee before his opponents are fully buffed. So I'm trying to shy away from any extra buffs that will get used on a frequent basis. Even so, bite of the wolf is something I'll pick up. The extra attack is not a bad idea in some situations. I'll consider it against foes where lots of attacks are needed. I was considering going for spiked chain. I could drop one of the psionic feats in favor of the exotic weapon feat... The spiked chain gives reach and full threat range, but I'm not sure if it's worth loosing psionic meditation for another 4 levels.
Hirumajoe 09-17-07, 11:34 PM	I was considering going for spiked chain. I could drop one of the psionic feats in favor of the exotic weapon feat... The spiked chain gives reach and full threat range, but I'm not sure if it's worth loosing psionic meditation for another 4 levels. My question to you would be, how often is a reach of 20' (30') going to be better than a reach of 10' (15')? You're fast enough (I think) such that the extra reach isn't that necessary to get to your opponent. You'd also be trading out for 3.5 less damage (in the Large and Huge cases) and a x2 instead of a x3 critical multiplier. For someone who likes alpha strikes, I think your axe is fine. And when you really need to hit a high AC, being able to recover your focus and attack in the same round is going to do you alot more than extra reach. On the same note, when you want reach, you can probably just get by with being Huge or using your haste to get closer. In my opinion, your feat selection is better this way (without the exotic weapon proficiency).
Rauul 09-17-07, 11:52 PM	whats the Armorsmith craft needed to make Mithrial half-plate armor?.. and how much would it cost to craft :)
SauroGrenom 09-18-07, 12:01 AM	whats the Armorsmith craft needed to make Mithrial half-plate armor?.. and how much would it cost to craft :) 10, and you need to spend 5250gp.
SauroGrenom 09-18-07, 12:03 AM	whats the Armorsmith craft needed to make Mithrial half-plate armor?.. and how much would it cost to craft :) 10, and you need to spend 5250gp. Edit: That's for full plate. Half plate is only 4800gp
Eamane 09-18-07, 01:43 AM	It's been a bit since someone actually failed a concentration check in one of my battles but; If you get distracted and fail the check, you lose the spell slot you were trying to cast, right? Just want to double-check.
Vathelokai 09-18-07, 01:50 AM	It's been a bit since someone actually failed a concentration check in one of my battles but; If you get distracted and fail the check, you lose the spell slot you were trying to cast, right? Just want to double-check. You are correct If while trying to cast a spell you take damage, you must make a Concentration check (DC 10 + points of damage taken + the level of the spell you’re casting). If you fail the check, you lose the spell without effect.
whitebaron 09-18-07, 03:38 AM	whats the Armorsmith craft needed to make Mithrial half-plate armor?.. and how much would it cost to craft :) general rules for armor are easy: dc 10+ac for normal armor, dc 20 for armor with masterwork quality or special materials that grant the masterwork-ability.
MindWandererB 09-18-07, 03:53 AM	Touchsight is on the way, but psiwarriors don't get the power normally. Nor can they use it as a stone. I can get it with expanded knowledge, but I need to be able to manifest 4th level powers first. For a psiwarrior that's ML 10, and still a level away at 12hd.Remember that Touchsight, while powerful, does have limitations (mainly range), plus this'll cost you a feat. At the same level, a psiwar can get Steadfast Perception, which has unlimited range and fulfils all the same functions except for piercing mundane hiding and beating Nondetection.
Nurlithion 09-18-07, 06:49 AM	Can Psionic Shot and similar feats apply to attacks made with powers or spells? Thanks in advance.
Sjiggie 09-18-07, 07:11 AM	If the spell/power requires an attack roll then yes you can use psionic shot with that spell/power.
Nurlithion 09-18-07, 07:38 AM	Got yet another question :P. Do levels of cerebremancer(or any other psionic prestige class, I guess) stack with psion levels to determine psycristal abilities? It says on the class description that it doesn't grant more psycristal abilities. However, the Improved Psycristal feat does not reference psionic class level, but manifester level. Does that mean that if I take Improved Psycristal my levels in Cerebremancer will stack with levels in Psion, since they advance manifester level? Thanks in advance for any answers.
Sjiggie 09-18-07, 08:27 AM	It seems to me that you are new to Psionics may I suggest that you read This thread it shall answer a lot of your questions. It also answers your question: Psicrystal Q: What levels, exactly, count toward the psicrystal's abilities? Prestige classes say they don't, and the monster entry says "only levels in psion and wilder"... A: Go by the primary source -- Psicrystal Affinity. It's 'levels in psionic classes.' A psionic class is one that grants, or requires, the Psionic subtype -- as such, every class in the XPH, including the Psychic Warrior and the prestige classes, will advance the psicrystal. (The text in the XPH about PrCs not advancing class features such as psicrystals is a copy/paste holdover error from 3.0 psionics where psicrystals were class features of the Psion class.) Yes, this also means Soulknife levels count, although a soulknife can't get one without multiclassing.
Nurlithion 09-18-07, 11:21 AM	Hey, since my psicrystal gains feats, I thought about giving him Mounted Combat and having him ride on me. Would this work? Would it be worth it with only 1 rank in Ride and +2 Dex? If not, what else should I choose? Thanks in advance, yet AGAIN.
TelinArtho 09-18-07, 11:36 AM	Psicrystals do not gain feats in the CoCo. There was much discussion about how they should be handled (because they share many of the items of Familiars, but had some key words missing from their description). As a result, the elders have "clarified" the matter as follows: Q: How are psicrystals handled in CoCo? A: Psicrystals are treated as the psionic equivalent to familiars. In any circumstance where the psicrystal rules are ambiguous or can be interpreted in more than one way, the corresponding rules for familiars are then used for clarification.
The Dread Dormammu 09-18-07, 01:20 PM	http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13779996&postcount=1312 Any thoughts on how Snaga could have survived this? He's on a pretty bad Tilt. Also did he wind up spending the scroll of summon swarm?
TelinArtho 09-18-07, 01:38 PM	http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13779996&postcount=1312 Any thoughts on how Snaga could have survived this? He's on a pretty bad Tilt. Also did he wind up spending the scroll of summon swarm? Yes he started casting from it - which expends the scroll. As to how to survive, it might just be difficult in this case: 1. Your opponent made a makeable save (DC17 with 1d20+4 - saves 40% of the time). 2. Chill touch is not a very powerful spell on its own unless the opponent absolutely needs every point of strength. I like to use it against opponents who have Strength bows - because a single failed save (sometimes 2 are needed) reduces their damage by 1 and their attack roll by 2. However, it doesn't really do much damage unless you can get multiple effects going on to help it (for instance - Acid Arrow - followed up with a familiar delivering chill touch, etc). If you need to just kill your opponent - shocking grasp will have a better ability to force that. 2. Your opponent failed a makeable save (Color Spray) 3. You fired several times with a heavy crossbow and did below average damage. It should be noted that the heavy crossbow has a full round reload time - so you should've shot even fewer times during the color spray duration. Personally, when someone is stunned with color spray, you only have a short time to work out things to effect him: 1. Stunned makes you drop your weapon. So - when he gets stunned, specify in your tactics to go up and take anything that was in your opponent's hands. 2. Stunned doesn't make your opponent particularly vulnerable to attacks - but it does give you time. This means you can spend some time either a) buffing or b) summoning. Darrgon (my conjurer) uses color spray and then summons other creatures to do his dirty work. Hope some of that helps.
whitebaron 09-18-07, 01:45 PM	also, wizards have only some spells to use. high level its save or die, but low level its die (self) or die (other) since you normally have no backups. low level wizards are bound to have lots of losses, unless you have different tactics in mind that don't rely only on your spells. the grasping others weapon is a very nice tactics though...
Nurlithion 09-18-07, 01:47 PM	Okay, I hope this is my last question for this character. Can I buy a wand or dorje with less than 50 charges? Specifically, I'd like to buy a dorje of Energy Ray with 10 charges.
lonewolf 09-18-07, 01:52 PM	Okay, I hope this is my last question for this character. Can I buy a wand or dorje with less than 50 charges? Specifically, I'd like to buy a dorje of Energy Ray with 10 charges. no
Nurlithion 09-18-07, 01:53 PM	Ok, thanks.
TelinArtho 09-18-07, 02:06 PM	I am starting to get a deep-rooted feeling that charged items should be regulated under the expendables cap as well... Rauul picking up a slotted item that covers 7 tattoos for half the price and without being in the expendable cap; Reginald with his plethora of them. And then of course the wand/dorje slingers... At the moment - I'm just thinking about it though...
hogarth 09-18-07, 02:27 PM	I am starting to get a deep-rooted feeling that charged items should be regulated under the expendables cap as well... Rauul picking up a slotted item that covers 7 tattoos for half the price and without being in the expendable cap; Reginald with his plethora of them. And then of course the wand/dorje slingers... At the moment - I'm just thinking about it though... For what it's worth, I agree. The formula for success in the arena seems to be: 1 part allies 1 part wands/dorjes 1 part full caster class Season to taste.
TelinArtho 09-18-07, 02:46 PM	At this point, I don't think it has even anything to do with the full caster class... although Elrick and Lord Lorian and Longshot are all doing their part to kill people, I'm getting the impression it is mostly the excessive use of charged items that gets to people... Like I said - it is just a feeling. Regulating things certainly isn't the most pleasurable of items to consider - but it is something that I am thinking about.
templer10 09-18-07, 03:19 PM	At this point, I don't think it has even anything to do with the full caster class... although Elrick and Lord Lorian and Longshot are all doing their part to kill people, I'm getting the impression it is mostly the excessive use of charged items that gets to people... Like I said - it is just a feeling. Regulating things certainly isn't the most pleasurable of items to consider - but it is something that I am thinking about. the reason that all three win isnt the dorja's - If there is a reason it's that they are well built chars Which include dorjas/wands as PART of their arsenal of options to use per battle, i think once you start regulating something as basic as wands where do you stop? limite a wizard to one Pearl of power becuase he gets more spells per day this way? one Sword becuase otherwise you cant sunder it and render him ineffective? the fact of the matter - there are usually very easy ways to deal with dorjas/wands - they are all low CL/ML and can be easly dispelled if they are buffs, they have VERY low save DC's if they are save or crap/half saves and iff they are ranged touch they generaly have poor range and Essentially Force the user into close range to the opponent, and if the opponent didnt take the effort to increase his Touch AC- well... tough.. deal with it. ALSO - they are very easy to sunder even without an admantine weapon - All are viable options to deal with said wands/dorja's - hell it's things i used against other users of wands/dorjas. p.s - I for once when i write tactics a hell of a lot of the times go for the overkill method - I think, that's why i win sometimes - i expend more resouces then i absolutly need - including monetery resources that are Wands/dorjas to increase my chances to win - it's my choice and it cost me money - it's Pretty damn costly to pay the many thousends of Gold per new dorja/wand so i try not to use it if i dont have 2, But if i do so - it's a legitimate tactic and shouldnt get nerfed just becuase it Works, Find ways to deal with it OTHER then nerfing. p.s.s About the single use take all items - iam more conflicted - i personaly dont use them But i can definently see the problem with them - and the problem as i see it- isnt neseserly that you get them cheap - it's that you essentially get to use spells/powers that you normally wouldnt have acess 2 since they arent on your class list -- if there is any reason to limit they use on those kinds of items - this is it i think.
lonewolf 09-18-07, 04:54 PM	I seem to be blind: How much does it cost to train a pegasus to carry a mount?
templer10 09-18-07, 04:54 PM	I seem to be blind: How much does it cost to train a pegasus to carry a mount? 1000.
lonewolf 09-18-07, 04:56 PM	ty
templer10 09-18-07, 05:21 PM	Anyonce care to shoot me? i just now noticed Reduce animal is 1 hour/level and solve most of Elrick manuverability problems in small areas since A small sized dire bat can fly on any map just fine...
hogarth 09-18-07, 05:29 PM	Anyonce care to shoot me? i just now noticed Reduce animal is 1 hour/level and solve most of Elrick manuverability problems in small areas since A small sized dire bat can fly on any map just fine... That's why Treetall Oakleg has a scroll of it.
Rauul 09-18-07, 05:36 PM	I am starting to get a deep-rooted feeling that charged items should be regulated under the expendables cap as well... Rauul picking up a slotted item that covers 7 tattoos for half the price and without being in the expendable cap; Reginald with his plethora of them. And then of course the wand/dorje slingers... At the moment - I'm just thinking about it though... Maybe a separate Cap for Charged Items... ecl/2 x 750.. That way an Ecl 3 can get a hold of their CLW wands.. and Magic missile Wands.. While we are at it.. lets limit the number of Arrows an archer can have.. or Weapons a Fighter can have.. Shadow is getting his specifically because he is getting into the leagues where casters drop Dispel magics as if they are candy.. and the fact that he will have a cohort whos expendables are also under his cap.. edit=> Sorry if i am coming off sounding upset.. but to be honest.. the only reason Reginald and Shadow can get these items is because we spent a large amount of Skills in Gather information... Noone is going to spend 15 credits on Disposable items..
Callix 09-18-07, 05:41 PM	Bit of a weird question: Rennae just finished her 3FC and leveled to 4th, and she has 2000 gp lying around I don't really know what to do with. I'm thinking maybe a dorje of Entangling Ectoplasm and +1 armor, but does anyone have ideas that might be better?
whitebaron 09-18-07, 05:49 PM	I am starting to get a deep-rooted feeling that charged items should be regulated under the expendables cap as well... Rauul picking up a slotted item that covers 7 tattoos for half the price and without being in the expendable cap; Reginald with his plethora of them. And then of course the wand/dorje slingers... At the moment - I'm just thinking about it though... i think all one shot items should be expendables. there is no real reason why pearls of brainlock, which go poof after they are used, are handled any different to potions or scrolls. for wands: obviously you'd have to raise the expendable cap then, which would be my way to go here... everything that can be used up, (including arrows, tanglefoot bags ..) should be called expendables. the limit would have to be raised, e.g. to ecl²*150. for people trying to abuse a bigger expendable cap with scrolls etc: remeber they have to carry it all - and to have it sorted in order to access it. so: a lvl 3 cleric with 54 scrolls might be tempting - but how to access them in the heat of battle? this is something generally overlooked in the arena- many people have wands as well as expendables en masse and no way to store them, not even a small bag of holding. @callix: entangling is the way to go *g*
MindWandererB 09-18-07, 05:55 PM	for wands: obviously you'd have to raise the expendable cap then, which would be my way to go here... everything that can be used up, (including arrows, tanglefoot bags ..) should be called expendables. the limit would have to be raised, e.g. to ecl²*150. for people trying to abuse a bigger expendable cap with scrolls etc: remeber they have to carry it all - and to have it sorted in order to access it. so: a lvl 3 cleric with 54 scrolls might be tempting - but how to access them in the heat of battle? this is something generally overlooked in the arena- many people have wands as well as expendables en masse and no way to store them, not even a small bag of holding.Problem is, there's no rule to support that. Retrieving a stored item (from a backpack) is, perhaps strangely, a move action. We definitely don't need a rule change that will result in more scrolls and potions.
Rauul 09-18-07, 06:04 PM	i think all one shot items should be expendables. there is no real reason why pearls of brainlock, which go poof after they are used, are handled any different to potions or scrolls. for wands: obviously you'd have to raise the expendable cap then, which would be my way to go here... everything that can be used up, (including arrows, tanglefoot bags ..) should be called expendables. the limit would have to be raised, e.g. to ecl²*150. for people trying to abuse a bigger expendable cap with scrolls etc: remeber they have to carry it all - and to have it sorted in order to access it. so: a lvl 3 cleric with 54 scrolls might be tempting - but how to access them in the heat of battle? this is something generally overlooked in the arena- many people have wands as well as expendables en masse and no way to store them, not even a small bag of holding. @callix: entangling is the way to go *g* your also forgetting that the items that Reginald and shadow are asking for.. take a Body slot.. and would normally cost credits.. Same thing happened when Shadow asked for a Charged item that was usable 2/day.. Cheaper than normal because it had a limit on uses perday.. (yes they were copied from Reginald's rings that were Approved)... Easiest way would be to get rid of the Gather Information Single Skill Activities.. But is that really fair to the 2-3 players that actually use it...
Salrantol 09-18-07, 06:23 PM	Anyone have any ideas for Felice's shiny new 6th level feat? I've been looking at a few, but none of them seem as good as a feat should be (and the rest of her future feats are). Enlarge Power (great to make the short-range powers better, esp. with Craft Dorge; not a Psionic feat, so no HP). Expanded Knowledge (Astral Construct) (not bad, but she's not likely to use that many pp on something she's not more sure to damage with) Expanded Knowledge (Grip of Iron) (useful only defensively now, but helpful in the future [ECL 10+, super-secret tech]) Psionic Talent (meh, but 2pp & 2hp, also gets her an extra pp/fight)
Rauul 09-18-07, 06:32 PM	maybe i should just put in for the Amulet... but i believe that was ruled against as a no go.. This Deep Black Deep crystal Amulet is Actually 50 black Deep Crystals, when activated a Crystal disappears, when all gems stones are gone the Amulet is useless, when activated the Amulet grants the wearer the Chameleon power at manifester level 1, The power of the Amulet is such that it is usable only 2 times per day.. -------- lvl 1 x ml 1 x 1800= 1800 x.4 (2/day)= 720x.5(charges)= 360 gp and 15 credits ---------------------------------------------------------- edit=> acually next cycle Shadow may get this item without charges..
templer10 09-18-07, 06:32 PM	Anyone have any ideas for Felice's shiny new 6th level feat? I've been looking at a few, but none of them seem as good as a feat should be (and the rest of her future feats are). Enlarge Power (great to make the short-range powers better, esp. with Craft Dorge; not a Psionic feat, so no HP). Expanded Knowledge (Astral Construct) (not bad, but she's not likely to use that many pp on something she's not more sure to damage with) Expanded Knowledge (Grip of Iron) (useful only defensively now, but helpful in the future [ECL 10+, super-secret tech]) Psionic Talent (meh, but 2pp & 2hp, also gets her an extra pp/fight) Enlarge power is great - nothing beats an energy missle from FAR FAR AWAY... to ruin's anyone's day... Also you might want to consider getting either psionic shot or power speciliazation (considering you already have the prereq) for Extra dmg in genrel and especially to those targets with PR - althrough without psioninc mediation it's use is limited.
Eamane 09-18-07, 06:38 PM	Anyone have any ideas for Felice's shiny new 6th level feat? I've been looking at a few, but none of them seem as good as a feat should be (and the rest of her future feats are). Enlarge Power (great to make the short-range powers better, esp. with Craft Dorge; not a Psionic feat, so no HP). Expanded Knowledge (Astral Construct) (not bad, but she's not likely to use that many pp on something she's not more sure to damage with) Expanded Knowledge (Grip of Iron) (useful only defensively now, but helpful in the future [ECL 10+, super-secret tech]) Psionic Talent (meh, but 2pp & 2hp, also gets her an extra pp/fight) Of course, there is the ubiquitous Leadership feat for a flying mount/cleric/druid ally. Your wisdom is a bit low or I would suggest Psionic Meditation. Power Specialization is an option; and I assume why you picked up Weapon Focus. Ghost Attack helps against, well, ghosts. You are getting into the area where they start popping up. Between the ones that you mentioned, I would go with Enlarge or Psionic Talent.
Rauul 09-18-07, 07:14 PM	I am acually looking for the price of to make this item... Feedback welcome.. This Black leather vest is enhances an assassin's Death attack DC by +1 (Death attack is dc 11+ int modifer, vest makes it Dc 12+ int Modifer) -------- bonus Squared 1x 1000 gp= 1000 gp (i believe) ----------------------------------------------------------
Macbrea 09-18-07, 07:51 PM	Sadly, we have to go with similar items to determine the value of things like that. Assassins Dagger, +2 dagger with +1 dc on death attack Price 18,302 gp Breaking that down: +2 Enhancment 8000gp Masterworking 300gp Dagger 2gp Unknown quality giving +1 DC to Death Attacks = 10,000gp Yup, it's alittle overpriced.
Rauul 09-18-07, 09:08 PM	Sadly, we have to go with similar items to determine the value of things like that. Assassins Dagger, +2 dagger with +1 dc on death attack Price 18,302 gp Breaking that down: +2 Enhancment 8000gp Masterworking 300gp Dagger 2gp Unknown quality giving +1 DC to Death Attacks = 10,000gp Yup, it's alittle overpriced. Ok so having it add a +1d6 Backstab instead of the +1 to death attack would be how much?
hogarth 09-18-07, 09:16 PM	Anyone have any ideas for Felice's shiny new 6th level feat? I've been looking at a few, but none of them seem as good as a feat should be (and the rest of her future feats are). Power Penetration/Greater Power Penetration could get useful eventually. Leadership is the most powerful feat around, though.
hogarth 09-18-07, 09:18 PM	I would suggest not using that thread for all of your answers. Some of the answers are official responses from the Sage or elsewhere, and some are just the opinions of the author and he makes no distinction between the two. It seems to me that you are new to Psionics may I suggest that you read This thread it shall answer a lot of your questions. It also answers your question: Psicrystal Q: What levels, exactly, count toward the psicrystal's abilities? Prestige classes say they don't, and the monster entry says "only levels in psion and wilder"... A: Go by the primary source -- Psicrystal Affinity. It's 'levels in psionic classes.' A psionic class is one that grants, or requires, the Psionic subtype -- as such, every class in the XPH, including the Psychic Warrior and the prestige classes, will advance the psicrystal. (The text in the XPH about PrCs not advancing class features such as psicrystals is a copy/paste holdover error from 3.0 psionics where psicrystals were class features of the Psion class.) Yes, this also means Soulknife levels count, although a soulknife can't get one without multiclassing.
hogarth 09-18-07, 09:23 PM	the reason that all three win isnt the dorja's - If there is a reason it's that they are well built chars Which include dorjas/wands as PART of their arsenal of options to use per battle, i think Yes, that's why I said "one part dorjes/wands" out of three parts. The point is that full casters are capable of some devastating things, but because of the way the 3FC works, I find they run out of their best attacks quickly (or their best attack might be ineffective) so they need a wand or dorje to back them up. Allies are just the icing on the cake (whether it's a mount to vastly improve mobility or a bruiser that can grapple or otherwise soak up damage). It goes without saying that good tactics can make or break a gladiator, of course.
Vathelokai 09-19-07, 01:22 AM	Geez... I go working on a build and now I feel all cliche :cool: . Anyway, I've been playing around with the thurge build I was thinking of. I figured I'd throw caution to the wind and try the crazy build. I think it'll do poorly until ECL5, then mediocre until a lv or two of thurge. Advice always appreciated, even if I don't use it. Phrenic Grey Elf Cleric3/Sorcerer4/Thurge10/Heirophant1 Stat base templ race cost Str 8 | 10 - -2 | 2 Dex 16 | 14 - +2 | 6 Con 12 | 14 - -2 | 6 Int 14 | 10 +2 +2 | 2 Wis 18 | 16 +2 - | 10 Cha 20 | 16 +4 - | 10 Class Total ECL Class Feat Stat Feature BAB HP For Ref Wil Divine Arcane Skills 1 | Phrenic | | | See below | - - | - - - | - - | Conc, K:rel, Spellcraft, C:armor(2), C:bow(2) 2 | Phrenic | | | | - - | - - - | - - | Conc, K:rel, Spellcraft, C:sculpt 3 | Cleric | Still Spell | | Turning, Divine Spells | 0 9 | 2 0 2 | 3 - | Conc, K:rel, Spellcraft, C:sculpt 4 | Cleric | | | | 1 14 | 3 0 3 | 4 - | Conc, K:arc(2), Spellcraft 5 | Cleric | Weapon Finesse | | | 2 20 | 3 1 3 | 10 - | Conc, K:arc(2), Spellcraft 6 | Sorcerer | | Wis | Arcane Spells, Familiar | 2 23 | 3 1 5 | 10 5 | Conc, K:arc, Spellcraft, C:carpen 7 | Sorcerer | | | | 3 27 | 3 1 6 | 10 6 | Conc, K:arc, Spellcraft, C:carpen 8 | Sorcerer | Craft Wonderous | | | 3 30 | 4 2 6 | 10 7 | Conc, K:rel, Spellcraft, C:? 9 | Sorcerer | | | | 4 34 | 4 2 7 | 10 14 | Conc, K:rel, Spellcraft, C:? 10 | M.Thurge | | Wis | Dual Spell Progression | 4 37 | 4 2 9 | 14 16 | " 11 | M.Thurge | Craft Wand | | | 5 41 | 4 2 10 | 23 30 | " 12 | M.Thurge | | | | 5 44 | 5 3 10 | 28 35 | " 13 | M.Thurge | | | | 6 48 | 5 3 11 | 41 54 | " 14 | M.Thurge | Craft Arms | Dex | | 6 51 | 5 3 11 | 48 61 | " 15 | M.Thurge | | | | 7 55 | 6 4 12 | 60 80 | " 16 | M.Thurge | | | | 7 58 | 6 4 12 | 69 89 | " 17 | M.Thurge | Craft Construct | | | 8 62 | 6 4 13 | 85 112 | " 18 | M.Thurge | | Dex | | 8 65 | 7 5 13 | 96 123 | " 19 | M.Thurge | | | | 9 69 | 7 5 14 | 116 150 | " 20 | Heirophant | Imp. Familiar | | Maximized Cure Spells | 9 75 | 9 5 16 | 116 150 | " Cleric: Domain - Artifice (+4 all craft checks, +1CL on [creation] spells) Domain - Healing (+1 CL on [heal] spells) Spontaneous Heal spells Phrenic: +2 Lv. Adjustment Psionic Subtype; 1pp; New Psi-like abilities every odd HD; Power/Spell-resistance 10+HD; int+2, wis+2, chr+4 Starting Equipment: darkwood breastplate darkwood heavy shield darkwood longbow backup shortbow 2 daggers 2 holy symbols 2 spell component pouches tools: armor tools: bows everburning torch rope 2 light horses w/ gear wand inflict lt. wounds wand cure lt. wounds
templer10 09-19-07, 04:16 AM	HEALING domain? why on earth.... and Pherenic? errr..... your Caster level is going to be lower then dirt you know...
lonewolf 09-19-07, 04:39 AM	I have to agree. Notice that you would get your first lvl 3 spells on ECL11! when other casters get level 6 spells. Trust me, thats not worth it.
Callix 09-19-07, 04:41 AM	Theurges already have bad CLs, and you're only making it worse. A Maenad Cleric3/Sorc4/MT10 has the basics down at ECL3, the Psionic subtype, and isn't taking Str and Con hits to boost cleric dump stats. Why are you boosting your intelligence? It's your least important attribute, and you're effectively cutting your Con to do so. Halfling (if you don't want Psionic subtype) gives you +dex and size bonus to AC, and avoids the LA that's butchering your caster level. On a different topic, how specific does a Slayer's "specific psionic creature" need to be? "Psionic Hmanoids" would probably be too broad, but would "Psionic Elves" be OK? I know it won't stack with Petyr's Favoured Enemy (Elf) from Ranger, but I need to know before he hits ECL 8... I guess you've got a bit of time then.
MindWandererB 09-19-07, 04:57 AM	On a different topic, how specific does a Slayer's "specific psionic creature" need to be? "Psionic Hmanoids" would probably be too broad, but would "Psionic Elves" be OK? I know it won't stack with Petyr's Favoured Enemy (Elf) from Ranger, but I need to know before he hits ECL 8... I guess you've got a bit of time then.We've had "psionic elves" and "psionic humans" in the past, and no one's complained.
hogarth 09-19-07, 06:43 AM	HEALING domain? why on earth.... and Pherenic? errr..... your Caster level is going to be lower then dirt you know... He'll probably have to rely on scrolls and wands in order to win. So what else is new? :)
Vathelokai 09-19-07, 08:13 AM	:rofl: I havn't seen a reaction like that in a looong time.
Rauul 09-19-07, 08:13 AM	looking at ECL 5 this week.. looks like my half orc will probably get a monster fight.. And Shadows ECL 6 looks to be full of heavy hitters.. LOL How many fights does Graashnak have to win to get rid of the Failure tag..
Sjiggie 09-19-07, 08:28 AM	If Graashnak gets his monster fight and wins it he will lose he failure tag so one could be enough. Good luck to him:P
Rauul 09-19-07, 10:28 AM	If Graashnak gets his monster fight and wins it he will lose he failure tag so one could be enough. Good luck to him:P he will get another pair of mephits.... and die.. thats his luck..
TelinArtho 09-19-07, 11:12 AM	looking at ECL 5 this week.. looks like my half orc will probably get a monster fight.. And Shadows ECL 6 looks to be full of heavy hitters.. LOL How many fights does Graashnak have to win to get rid of the Failure tag.. Well - the only one I have at ECL5 right now is the Countess Ural, but I haven't touched that sheet since I came back about a year and a half ago... its on my list though. As one of my highest PR characters - if you did manage to beat her - it would bring you out of failure territory...
Rauul 09-19-07, 11:30 AM	Well - the only one I have at ECL5 right now is the Countess Ural, but I haven't touched that sheet since I came back about a year and a half ago... its on my list though. As one of my highest PR characters - if you did manage to beat her - it would bring you out of failure territory... yea i looked at her... straight up melee.. maybe i could win.. but that heavy warhorse and her mounted combat, and trample ect... would be hard... really beginning to hate ride for cover.. Am looking at a Blink Dog for Shadow's Cohort.. Do all blink dogs have to be lawful good or are there some neutral evil ones possable?.. Alignment: Usually lawful good Edit=> forget the blink dog... looks like he has to be level 8 for one.. since it works off ECL and not CR for a blink dog... (and that is wrong IMHO)
Rauul 09-19-07, 11:40 AM	leadership list needs some selections for level 6 Pc's that can get a Cohort.. I mean Shadow has a leadership score of 9 but can't get anything on the list because he is ECL 6..
TelinArtho 09-19-07, 12:10 PM	leadership list needs some selections for level 6 Pc's that can get a Cohort.. I mean Shadow has a leadership score of 9 but can't get anything on the list because he is ECL 6.. Well - you can still get anything off of the regular races list too... I guess it depends on what you are looking for. I can't just rattle off suggestions without some sort of idea of what you need for shadow. yea i looked at her... straight up melee.. maybe i could win.. but that heavy warhorse and her mounted combat, and trample ect... would be hard... really beginning to hate ride for cover.. Well - she's won mostly on opponents underestimating her, but in most cases they were fights that could go either way - they just happened to go her way most of the time. She's an interesting build to me, but I really just want to get her to ECL9 or so (Paladin 6/Wizard 3) - so she can start befuddling my opponents a little more...
TelinArtho 09-19-07, 02:34 PM	Gareth fixed errors from audit, I thought oil of silence were ok not black market now under new rules? @ Erith, Malik has eagles splendor in his spell book, I just checked and was going to add it to fix violation but it was there. Yes - the Oil of Silence no longer needs approval since it is a potion.
TelinArtho 09-19-07, 03:32 PM	Okay - I've finally posted my new version of Aquin. A little over 2 months in reworking him... and he still has issues. Aquin (version 2) Sahaugin mutant Half-Bronze dragon (ECL9) The current build is certainly racial HD up to 6HD (ECL12). This will boost him to large size which will have the effect of giving him a killer strength, improve his Con (so he'll suddenly have decent HP), and give him wings. Large size can be a hindrance on maps like the forest and sewers, but by the time he gets that size - he'll have options on fixing that problem. From there, probably 4 levels of Fighter and then one of four routes: 1. Finish off with fighter (6HD, Fighter 8, LA+6) 2. Finish off with barbarian (6HD, Fighter 4, Barbarian 4, LA+6) 3. One level of Barb and 3 Half-Dragon Paragon (6HD, Fighter 4, Barbarian 1, H-D Paragon 3) 4. One level of Sorcerer and 3 Half-Dragon Paragon (6HD, Fighter 4, Sorcerer 1, H-D Paragon 3 (CL3)) I like going after the Half-Dragon paragon - since having 3 breath weapons/3FC will help (despite it being mediocre damage). By ECL12 (when he becomes large), the DC on the BW will be 19 (10 + 3 (6HD/2) + 6 (22 Con)) or more (if I get a Amulet of Health (likely)). Right now he has a few notable weaknesses: No SR or DR to help out his relatively few HP. His saves are not great. His ranged abilities are relatively limited. His Cha leaves him fairly vulnerable as well. I don't have much for plans to shore these up in the next 3 levels. Once he hits ECL12, he'll recraft all his weapons and armor and then probably add SR to his arsenal. Of course, the SR will never be enough to block spells reliably- but it will be some defense. Anyway - I'm welcome to any and all comments.
Vathelokai 09-20-07, 01:24 AM	Rules Question: If you use the psionic transfer feat to use a supernatural ability that replicates a spell with a long durration, and then metamorph into something else, does the transfer continue to function? Example: Psibeast polymorphs into a formian taskmaster and uses dominate person on an opponent. Psibeast then polymorphs into an avoral. Does the dominate continue? I don't see why it wouldn't continue, but I thought I'd check.
Callix 09-20-07, 04:03 AM	Another rules question: I've just noticed, after running the whole fight, that Tweak, as an ECL3 character, can't use a riding dog ally. Removing Old Dan won't really affect the fight, as all he does is get killed. Should I remove him and give normal rewards, or leave him and deduct XP normally?
Malither76 09-20-07, 10:20 AM	What do you guys think? does a rogue that gets improved precise strike able to sneak attack things that have less than total concealment? I sent this in to sage advice but I was wondering on opinions here.
Macbrea 09-20-07, 10:31 AM	heh.. Got to love a project plan that reads.. Project plan (notes in Project plan update section) -->Migration in January w/ parallel runs to March. -->Project time line (from above) ---->General migration still done by the end of the year. ---->Still have parallel bill runs in Jan. ---->No Xmas/New Years. Ponders... does that mean I need to cancel christmas? :P
whitebaron 09-20-07, 10:31 AM	Another rules question: I've just noticed, after running the whole fight, that Tweak, as an ECL3 character, can't use a riding dog ally. Removing Old Dan won't really affect the fight, as all he does is get killed. Should I remove him and give normal rewards, or leave him and deduct XP normally? well, it blocks my charge with 30 damage. ;) but still, i don't know what's the thing to do here is either. since both gladiators clearly missed this, i'd keep the xp for me. ;)
TelinArtho 09-20-07, 11:54 AM	Another rules question: I've just noticed, after running the whole fight, that Tweak, as an ECL3 character, can't use a riding dog ally. Removing Old Dan won't really affect the fight, as all he does is get killed. Should I remove him and give normal rewards, or leave him and deduct XP normally? This is one of those cases that open communication is the best route. Since the fight is already complete - it complicates things. Options that could be used: 1. Fight is kept as is. Penalties/Bonuses are applied as normal. Throw Tweak in the brig for the invalid ally. 2. Redo the fight with an appropriate ally (probably a Guard Dog) to replace the Riding Dog. In this case, the ally penalty should be adjusted. 3. Redo the fight with no ally. In this case, there would be no ally penalty. 4. Cancel the fight and either re-pair with a fixed Tweak or just drop the pairing completely and move forward next week. Your choice in this matter is completely up to your disgression as the pitlord since both players (and the pitlord) missed the invalid ally and the fight is already complete. That said - if you have the time and the inclination and can get an agreement from both players - you can go forward with either 2 or 3. If you don't have the time to redo the fight - it is completely valid to just call it done and have Tweak be fixed for the next fight. If both players are not satisfied with this - you could probably have the fight cancelled - but you should check with MWB about that.
TelinArtho 09-20-07, 12:24 PM	What do you guys think? does a rogue that gets improved precise strike able to sneak attack things that have less than total concealment? I sent this in to sage advice but I was wondering on opinions here. Hmm - good question. I would say probably not. Imp. Precise shot does not allow you to ignore concealment, just the miss chance associated with it. It doesn't change the fact that there's concealment though. It might be worth getting a court ruling on it if you don't get a timely reply from the sage. I'm not even convinced my response is correct - but I don't know that there's a solution aside from just getting a ruling/response from Sage. Rules Question: If you use the psionic transfer feat to use a supernatural ability that replicates a spell with a long durration, and then metamorph into something else, does the transfer continue to function? Example: Psibeast polymorphs into a formian taskmaster and uses dominate person on an opponent. Psibeast then polymorphs into an avoral. Does the dominate continue? I don't see why it wouldn't continue, but I thought I'd check. As long as the spell in question isn't a concentration or ongoing effect - I see no reason for it to suddenly end. I could be wrong here as well...
TelinArtho 09-20-07, 12:25 PM	heh.. Got to love a project plan that reads.. Project plan (notes in Project plan update section) -->Migration in January w/ parallel runs to March. -->Project time line (from above) ---->General migration still done by the end of the year. ---->Still have parallel bill runs in Jan. ---->No Xmas/New Years. Ponders... does that mean I need to cancel christmas? :P Yes you do. And the new year. So when we all get to 2008 - you are stuck in 2007 for eternity. MWAHAHAHA! (sorry about that - Evil twin got let out for a second...)
Erithmu 09-20-07, 12:31 PM	So ... does anyone else wonder what Telin's evil twin would look like as a questlord?
TelinArtho 09-20-07, 12:31 PM	Just bumping this up... was kind of hoping to get some comment on mercenaries out of it... Note: I made this list in accordance with a proposal I sent to MWB to get mercenaries more traffic. He has not yet approved anything I have included below, but I wanted to see if the even a small portion of the populace of the CoCo was interested, or if there were comments to be had. Approved Mercenaries: Below is the list of the current approved mercenaries. Note that this links to the Mercenaries of Gladius thread and that the original proposed version might be significantly different than the approved version. As more mercenaries are approved, this list will be broken out by ECL. [ECL 1] Barak Wolfskinner (Human Barbarian 1) [ECL 1] Jazer Ik-Ahaman (Human Druid 1) [ECL 2] Trillian Tallbow (Elven Fighter 2) [ECL 3] Grauerholz (Gnome Illusionist 3) [ECL 4] Hauber Bulwark (Dwarf Cleric 4) [ECL 5] Simaro Arnerl (Elf Transmuter 5) [ECL 6] Xander (Half-Giant Psiwarrior 5) [ECL 7] Bobo the Brute (Ogre Barbarian 1) Proposed Mercenaries: Below is the list of all of the proposed mercenaries, including ones that have already been approved (marked in italics) and ones that are not complete. In order to get more mercenaries approved, please ask for specific mercenaries. Once one is asked for, I will perform a thorough audit (to make sure the mercenary is valid), compare the mercenary to other active mercenaries, and finally make a decision to approve/deny the mercenary. In general, if a mercenary's role is covered within +/- 1 ECL, then the mercenary won't likely be approved. Exceptions will occur at the lower ECLs. Also - if there is enough desire, the same method could be done to suggest a replacement for a currently active mercenary. Replacements should be within +/- 1 ECL of the current mercenary and fulfill the same role but in a significantly different way. As more mercenaries are proposed, I will keep this list up to date as it is needed. I will also find a permanent home for it in the future - just posting it in the tavern for the present time... Lastly, I have noted many of the below as "complete" - no one should take this statement as an indication that I have already performed an audit on the character in question. Many might still have issues - I just noted "complete" when it seemed to me that the character was mostly done. ECL1 Barak Wolfskinner Human Barbarian 1 (ECL1): complete, approved. Jazer Ik-Ahaman Human Druid 1 (ECL1): complete, approved. Aramil Kobold-Slayer Elf Ranger 1 (ECL1): complete, <not approved> Lawrence Gaius Human Paladin 1 (ECL1): complete, <not approved> Orrid Nuts Halfling Rogue 1 (ECL1): complete, <not approved> Gunnor Thwappen Forest Gnome Sorcerer 1 (ECL1): complete, <not approved> Liel Turom Maenad Bard 1 (ECL1): complete, <not approved> Evel Aol Human Cleric 1 (ECL1): complete, <not approved> Angela Bairns Human Cleric 1 (ECL1): complete, <not approved> Hunter Theor Human Rogue 1 (ECL1): complete, <not approved> Zane Therapodulous Human Bard 1 (ECL1): complete, <not approved> ECL2 Trillian Tallbow Elf Fighter 2 (ECL2): complete, approved. Barsimmon Oridio Wood Elf Ranger 2 (ECL2): complete, <not approved> Ohko Ono Maenad Barbarian 1/Druid 1 (ECL2): complete, <not approved> Turen Gill Human Rogue 1/Fighter 1 (ECL2): complete, <not approved> Bo Bert/Fo Bert Human Rogue 2 (ECL2 each): complete, <not approved> Don Relik Human Cleric 2 (ECL2): complete, <not approved> Private 618 Hobgoblin Fighter 1 (ECL2): complete, <not approved> ECL3 Manard Greenfist Wood Elf Monk 3 (ECL3): complete, <not approved> Yojimbo the Ronin Human Ex-monk 1/Fighter 2 (ECL3): complete, <not approved> Grauerholz Forest Gnome Illusionist 3 (ECL3): complete, approved. Sharellym Vlaln Drow Elf Cleric 1 (ECL3): complete, <not approved> Kemman Tovaritsch Elan Transmuter 3 (ECL3): complete, <not approved> Cliffbearer Half-Giant Ex-monk 1/Barbarian 1 (ECL3): complete, <not approved> Belark Methren Duergar (psionic) Psychic Warrior 2 (ECL3): complete, <not approved> Bedina Cassan Xeph Monk 3 (ECL3): complete, <not approved> Bedina Cassan Xeph Ex-Barbarian 1/Fighter 2 (ECL3): complete, <not approved> Hansel Human Ranger 2/Fighter 1 (ECL3): complete, <not approved> Alden Fosyth Human Cleric 3 (ECL3): complete, <not approved> ECL4 Sparks Goblin Expert 4 (ECL4): <invalid> Odruke Pureheart Human (Fallen) Paladin 4 (ECL4): complete, <not approved> Shanarra Wood Elf Fighter 2/Bard 2 (ECL4): complete, <not approved> Alex the Hunter Human Ranger 1/Fighter 2/Druid 1 (ECL4): complete, <not approved> Hauber Bulwark Mountain Dwarf Cleric 4 (ECL4): complete, approved. Alicia Human Wilder 4 (ECL4): complete, <not approved> ECL5 Andarian Greenleaf Venerable Human Druid 5 (ECL5): <incomplete> Kalor Middle-aged Sun Elf (not a valid race) Abjurer 5 (ECL5): <invalid> Simaro Arnerl Gray Elf Transmuter 5 (ECL5): complete, approved. Blaergh Ghoul (ECL5): complete, <not approved> ECL6 Xander the Dauntless Half-Giant Psychic Warrior 5 (ECL6): complete, approved. Ruffrrn Blink Dog (ECL6): complete, <not approved> Johan the "Long Knife" Human Rogue 6 (ECL6): complete, <not approved> Glittershell Dromite Cleric 4/Psychic Warrior 1 (ECL6): <incomplete> Bravo, the Exaggerator Half-Orc Barbarian 1/Bard 5 (ECL6): complete, <not approved> ECL7 Bobo the Brute Ogre Barbarian 1 (ECL7): complete, approved. Hanna the Wise Centaur Druid 1 (ECL7): complete, <not approved> ECL8 Calliandra "Cali" Talongate Human Abjurer (UA Variant) 8 (ECL8): complete, <not approved> Szaal'zass the Shaman Lizardfolk Cleric 5 (ECL8): complete, <not approved> ECL9 Destra Stormwind Human Druid 8/Barbarian 1 (ECL9): complete, <not approved> <No Name> <incomplete> <Nothing> <Nothing> <No Name> Gray Elf Wizard 1 (ECL1): <incomplete> Bumping one more time. Does no one want to see mercs used at all?
TelinArtho 09-20-07, 12:33 PM	So ... does anyone else wonder what Telin's evil twin would look like as a questlord? No. No one wonders at all. And I still submit that I am not an evil questlord. I submit that everyone else just don't prepare well enough.
hogarth 09-20-07, 12:52 PM	Bumping one more time. Does no one want to see mercs used at all? It's the ol' Catch-22: If we had higher-quality mercenaries, more people would use them. And if more people used them, the GM would probably approve more of them. And if the GM approved more of them, we'd probably have higher-quality mercenaries. P.S. I think some of the deadliness has worn off of Telin's quests (and monster fights in general) with the adoption of the new monster treasure guidelines (no "triple normal" equipment, no sacks full of expendables, etc.).
TelinArtho 09-20-07, 12:56 PM	It's the ol' Catch-22: If we had higher-quality mercenaries, more people would use them. And if more people used them, the GM would probably approve more of them. And if the GM approved more of them, we'd probably have higher-quality mercenaries. Well, the post I am bumping is put in to get more mercenaries in and to replace the current procedure. I know that MWB doesn't have the time to review mercs and get them approved - so I am trying to take that out of his hands so that it can be workable. This isn't the "ol' Catch-22" because I am seeking to change the current procedure so that the mercenary roster will change with player input. P.S. I think some of the deadliness has worn off of Telin's quests (and monster fights in general) with the adoption of the new monster treasure guidelines (no "triple normal" equipment, no sacks full of expendables, etc.). *And there was Much Rejoicing... Yay*
Eamane 09-20-07, 01:22 PM	Well, the post I am bumping is put in to get more mercenaries in and to replace the current procedure. I know that MWB doesn't have the time to review mercs and get them approved - so I am trying to take that out of his hands so that it can be workable. This isn't the "ol' Catch-22" because I am seeking to change the current procedure so that the mercenary roster will change with player input. I think retired characters should get priority status for new mercenaries. I'd love to see Destra as an ECL 9 mercenary, even if no one can really hire her. Call it a position of honor ;)
TelinArtho 09-20-07, 01:31 PM	Well - since mercs use a 25-point buy and have less money to work with, the only ones that will see careers as mercenaries would need to be converted. Note that a few of the existing merc proposals are indeed reworks of characters that were once active (off the top of my head: Destra, Blaergh, Alex the Hunter)
Rauul 09-20-07, 02:06 PM	I have been thinking for the next 2 levels... of just having Shadow hire a Merc.. and yanno.. our merc selections leave much to be desired.. I was thinking of tossing up some level 4's and 5's that Shadow could use.. and hope they get approved..Then i looked and has any new mercs been approved lately?
TelinArtho 09-20-07, 02:21 PM	I have been thinking for the next 2 levels... of just having Shadow hire a Merc.. and yanno.. our merc selections leave much to be desired.. I was thinking of tossing up some level 4's and 5's that Shadow could use.. and hope they get approved..Then i looked and has any new mercs been approved lately? Nope. And the primary reason is because no one has really pushed the issue. I am hoping to do just that, but I need to know there is some interest in it. I still need MWB's approval on the matter, but if enough show support for it - I'll probably forge ahead ('tis easier to ask foregiveness than permission...). Of course, if he approves it - I'll get things going a lot sooner.
Rauul 09-20-07, 02:51 PM	Nope. And the primary reason is because no one has really pushed the issue. I am hoping to do just that, but I need to know there is some interest in it. I still need MWB's approval on the matter, but if enough show support for it - I'll probably forge ahead ('tis easier to ask foregiveness than permission...). Of course, if he approves it - I'll get things going a lot sooner. Well you have my support... As Shadow has 2-5 levels before he can get the Cohort he really wants.. Thinking i should change the Feat for now.. but want it for a Thieves guild when the Community comes up :) Honestly.. Since Diplomatic allies were removed.. i have been waiting for mercs to get done.. (need to rework the Formula tho.. loosing 25% exp is ok.. loosing 25% gold Plus paying for them is just bad busness) My Bard may acually be able to use some skills.... (faints)
MindWandererB 09-20-07, 03:49 PM	I know... I just don't have a lot of time these days. I've already cut my character activations down to one (fighting) per week. I do fully intend to approve more mercenaries when I can get around to it. Writing tactics now... maybe I'll have time after that.
TelinArtho 09-20-07, 03:55 PM	Well - this is why I proposed to you to let someone else take on the task of the mercenaries to get approved. Right now it is completely at the whim of one seriously over-worked volunteer. I'm offering to hand that task off to a "less-over"-worked volunteer. This is also why I'm taking it upon myself to help move the discussions in the courtroom and council - because for some of those issues it is pretty important to get them resolved.
templer10 09-20-07, 04:10 PM	I need a reminder - animated objects with hardness- If you attack them with a natural weapon - does it matter what weapon type it is? and i remmber something about some natural weapons being slashing/bludgening/pirecing and some not? someone care to jog my memory.
TelinArtho 09-20-07, 04:24 PM	Here's the portion in the SRD about the type of damage natural weapons deal: Natural Weapons: Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature. A creature making a melee attack with a natural weapon is considered armed and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Likewise, it threatens any space it can reach. Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons. The number of attacks a creature can make with its natural weapons depends on the type of the attack—generally, a creature can make one bite attack, one attack per claw or tentacle, one gore attack, one sting attack, or one slam attack (although Large creatures with arms or arm-like limbs can make a slam attack with each arm). Refer to the individual monster descriptions. Unless otherwise noted, a natural weapon threatens a critical hit on a natural attack roll of 20. When a creature has more than one natural weapon, one of them (or sometimes a pair or set of them) is the primary weapon. All the creature’s remaining natural weapons are secondary. The primary weapon is given in the creature’s Attack entry, and the primary weapon or weapons is given first in the creature’s Full Attack entry. A creature’s primary natural weapon is its most effective natural attack, usually by virtue of the creature’s physiology, training, or innate talent with the weapon. An attack with a primary natural weapon uses the creature’s full attack bonus. Attacks with secondary natural weapons are less effective and are made with a –5 penalty on the attack roll, no matter how many there are. (Creatures with the Multiattack feat take only a –2 penalty on secondary attacks.) This penalty applies even when the creature makes a single attack with the secondary weapon as part of the attack action or as an attack of opportunity. Natural weapons have types just as other weapons do. The most common are summarized below. Bite: The creature attacks with its mouth, dealing piercing, slashing, and bludgeoning damage. Claw or Talon: The creature rips with a sharp appendage, dealing piercing and slashing damage. Gore: The creature spears the opponent with an antler, horn, or similar appendage, dealing piercing damage. Slap or Slam: The creature batters opponents with an appendage, dealing bludgeoning damage. Sting: The creature stabs with a stinger, dealing piercing damage. Sting attacks usually deal damage from poison in addition to hit point damage. Tentacle: The creature flails at opponents with a powerful tentacle, dealing bludgeoning (and sometimes slashing) damage. As to the other part - hardness is not defeated like DR/piercing is (for instance).
MindWandererB 09-20-07, 06:06 PM	Well - this is why I proposed to you to let someone else take on the task of the mercenaries to get approved. Right now it is completely at the whim of one seriously over-worked volunteer. I'm offering to hand that task off to a "less-over"-worked volunteer. This is also why I'm taking it upon myself to help move the discussions in the courtroom and council - because for some of those issues it is pretty important to get them resolved. Hmm... but since you're the one doing the proposing of the mercenaries, there's a certain conflict of interest. Why don't we say that a merc can be approved with two elder "votes" (a nomination and a second)? The original designer wouldn't get one of these votes, and if there's any elder with a dissenting opinion then it'll fall to GM decision. Speaking of which, I see that the merc design rules need to be revised--the use of the word "Expendables" is erroneous now, because it was meant to apply to all expendable items, not just scrolls/stones/potions/tattoos. I need to edit that to clarify--and Bleargh is in violation (too much poison).
TelinArtho 09-20-07, 09:08 PM	You misunderstand my proposal or I am not being clear enough. Individual members would ask for an already proposed merc to be added to the roster. Someone (me I proposed) would verify that the proposed merc is up to spec. Assuming it is, and the merc's function isn't already represented within +/- 1 ECL, it could be added. The main problem with the system, as far as I see it, is that the mercs that were accepted were mostly on Cat's whim and his definition of a "good" mercenary. The problem is, that leads to only mercs that he actually finds appealing. I did forget to mention that the person posting the merc in the first place wouldn't be eligible to propose his merc for addition. In essence the original post is the "nomination" and the other member (anybody - not just an elder) is the "second." Elder involvement is still there in order to keep things reasonable - with an extra eye on the development to make sure the merc is correct and accurate (take for instance the changes Cat made to Grauerholz - changed his specialty and ended up with spells that were from prohibited schools...) and an eye to make sure that roles are not duplicated. As to Blaergh being in violation - that was a question I had - but I couldn't ask and get an answer - so I formed the question by posting it in the character. Now that you've answered - I can fully revise the rules for proposing a merc in the first place. Anyway - I was just trying to get the ball rolling on an item that I always felt had good merit but that never actually got implemented.
Eamane 09-21-07, 02:35 AM	Re: Mercs (aka; pointless 2 cents) Either suggestion sounds good to me! As either one is an improvement over the current system and causes this subsystem to be more likely to be used without unbalancing it. Re: Gun-toting Bard Porting this conversation here from the fights of the week fight. After thinking about it a bit more, I think Xuan Sunai (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13488520) needs to be rebuilt; because the Bardic Sage variant from UE is perfect for her, makes her bard levels worth something more than just the knowledge skills. I'd get to cast spells, for instance! And maintains the current build which I was probably aiming at Dragon Disciple after a few levels. What persay would be the credit cost for that kind of rebuild, assuming I wanted to keep her wins/power rating? The change is pretty much all upside, in the sense that it doesn't remove any capability from the character and thus, wouldn't have changed any of her earlier fights if she had been built that way originally. The biggest direct change would be the dropping of her Reflex score by 2; but iirc, she's never had to make a reflex saving throw, nor fought anyone whom her high reflex throw would have been important. Of course, if I cant get a reduce cost for circumstances, I could just save up for a total credit-crazy rebuild and grab the Simple Ranger variant, which eliminates the need to pick up barbarian for the fast movement ability.
Callix 09-21-07, 03:14 AM	Well, you're looking at 10 credits for opening Bardic Sage to begin with. But since Xuan's still ECL3, the rebuild cost won't be much, if it isn't free. IIRC, the Training Hall says all ECL 3 changes are free, needing only approval and a record. EDIT:Free Changes: This applies to really minor changes, or changes that need to be done because of a new/altered rule in the Rules of Gladius. The same is true if you haven't made use of the item in question or if your character is still ECL 3. There might be other instances where you can change the item for free. Any other change requires credits. Emphasis mine.
hogarth 09-21-07, 06:43 AM	You misunderstand my proposal or I am not being clear enough. Individual members would ask for an already proposed merc to be added to the roster. Someone (me I proposed) would verify that the proposed merc is up to spec. Assuming it is, and the merc's function isn't already represented within +/- 1 ECL, it could be added. What different possible "functions" are there? And how is that really any different than the current system (other than the fact that you would be deciding if a proposed merc adds a new "function" rather than MWB)? Not that it makes any difference; I think your judgment is just as good as MWB's, of course. The cynical side of me is thinking about the potential to add a new mercenary to the roster just to renew a buff or "buy" an expendable mid-cycle. Of course I'd be sure to always add the caveat "Will work for hogarth's characters for half price". :devil:
Vathelokai 09-21-07, 09:36 AM	What different possible "functions" are there? And how is that really any different than the current system (other than the fact that you would be deciding if a proposed merc adds a new "function" rather than MWB)? Not that it makes any difference; I think your judgment is just as good as MWB's, of course. The cynical side of me is thinking about the potential to add a new mercenary to the roster just to renew a buff or "buy" an expendable mid-cycle. Of course I'd be sure to always add the caveat "Will work for hogarth's characters for half price". :devil: Honestly, I'm okay with that (not like Reginald and Balthazar don't have the skills for a discount anyway). You would have to pay the salesman-merc to show up in a dangerous setting in the first place, then pay them full price for a couple potions. You wouldn't get to keep the stuff after the fight (sort of a use it or loose it policy). Maybe a special 'hagle' free activity or something to actually purchase the items. As for what a function is, It just means that something won't be approved if something similar is within one level. Examples being mobile archer, cleric buffer, cleric warrior, protection mage, crowd control mage, attack mage, battle rogue, sneak rogue.... et cetra. When you get to the wierd stuff like LA and monster mercs, then it really becomes a whim thing. For anyone interested in making mercs, remember that all the Unearthed arcana and stuff is up for grabs. They cannot use custom items (IIRC), but you can try out all those spiffy monk variants and paragon classes.
TelinArtho 09-21-07, 11:00 AM	What different possible "functions" are there? And how is that really any different than the current system (other than the fact that you would be deciding if a proposed merc adds a new "function" rather than MWB)? Not that it makes any difference; I think your judgment is just as good as MWB's, of course. The cynical side of me is thinking about the potential to add a new mercenary to the roster just to renew a buff or "buy" an expendable mid-cycle. Of course I'd be sure to always add the caveat "Will work for hogarth's characters for half price". :devil: Well - Vath pretty much summed it up on the roles. Having Barak and Trillian in ECL1 and 2 pretty much removes the possibility of another fighter type in those two ECLs (because melee and ranged fighting are taken care of). However, with just Jazer in ECL1 for casters, and Grauerholz for ECL3, there's still plenty of roles for casters that are not covered (Cleric, Necromancer, etc). One of the big problems I have with the current system is that you can design a character specifically to use mercenaries - but actually not have a selection until you can hire ECL3+ mercs. A Chaotic Goblinoid Arcane Caster would need to have ranks in diplomacy to hire anything in the entry levels... And if that character was great reknown by ECL6, he couldn't even hire Grauerholz (and later, not Simaro either)... And if he was evil - he couldn't hire Hauber... Anyway - the difference in my proposal to the previous system: Current system: players propose mercenaries in the Propose a Mercenary thread. GM looks over the entries and choose ones that are a) decent (opinion) b) complete c) have a role not represented already. The key here is the GM has to do it. My proposal: Players propose mercenaries in the Propose a Mercenary thread. Another player "seconds" that proposal asking to have the merc added to the mercenary roster. An assigned individual (me) audits the character to make sure s/he is complete and valid and then verifies that the role isn't already covered. Assuming the above is okay, the merc is added to the roster. My proposal's aim was two-fold. First, I wanted to take it out of the long list of responsibilities that MWB has. I know he has a lot on his plate - and I'm hoping I can get this into someone else's hands in order to alleviate that plate. Secondly, I wanted to take the selection of the mercenaries out of the GM's direct hands. The mercs that were accepted have largely gone unused with some notable exceptions: Hauber (for Sdentch's previous incarnation), Jazer (various), and Barak (various) have seen a few hirings for characters that could use them. For the latter two - this was before the "ECL5 minimum" was instituted. And since it was instituted - I don't think any merc has been hired, with one exception. The only one who has seen a decent amount of work is Trillian. She's been hired for a number of individuals and was Balrog's weekly hire until Balrog hit 6HD (and gained the leadership feat). I have designed several characters to make use of mercenaries. Berri's original incarnation was going to use them extensively - until I found out about the ECL5 minimum. Once I did - I had to go back to the drawing board. Her current incarnation will be using them - but it will still be a while before that happens (again - because of the minimum).
TelinArtho 09-21-07, 04:21 PM	I have made corrections to my more recent Mercenary posts in order to make them compliant with the Usables limit for Mercenaries: Hunter Theor Human Rogue 1 Blaergh Ghoul Zane Therapodulous Human Bard 1
Rauul 09-22-07, 08:08 AM	Looking for a Questlord for Shadow to go on a Miniquest for his Cohort.. Will be in 2 weeks.. (after failing 3 miniquests to join a guild )
hogarth 09-22-07, 09:57 AM	My proposal: Players propose mercenaries in the Propose a Mercenary thread. Another player "seconds" that proposal asking to have the merc added to the mercenary roster. An assigned individual (me) audits the character to make sure s/he is complete and valid and then verifies that the role isn't already covered. Assuming the above is okay, the merc is added to the roster. O.K., so as an example, let's say I created a mercenary (see Dizzy Pixarch) and another player seconded the proposal. So she would get added to the roster, right? There's no other mercenary who is a blasting psion so there should be no impediment.
TelinArtho 09-22-07, 11:59 AM	Assuming the character passes the audit - yes. And a small correction on the role there. I would call that a blasting "caster" rather than a psion. This way - we don't have a bunch of "alternative" blasters around the same levels. Disciplines = Schools essentially.
Scribelords 09-22-07, 01:48 PM	A happy birthday this week to... SEP 20: MindWandererB (1977) SEP 24: Taureus_Drakken (1987) SEP 24: Nurlithion (1991) In other news, my work and home life situations have calmed down a bit, so expect the return of the Gladius Weekly, dragon hunting quests, and a soon to be started campaign.
Vathelokai 09-22-07, 02:13 PM	If anyone needs a credit or two, Tweak needs someone to audit/imprison her. She's been in retirement for a long time, and may not be up to date with the new rules. I think I've fixed everything, but a double check would be great.
whitebaron 09-22-07, 04:25 PM	if you want to wait till next week, then i'll have time to do so. if someone else does it first, even better. ;)
Eluria 09-22-07, 05:07 PM	If anyone needs a credit or two, Tweak needs someone to audit/imprison her. She's been in retirement for a long time, and may not be up to date with the new rules. I think I've fixed everything, but a double check would be great. Wand of Expiditious Retreat [49/50 charges] [300 gp] [5 credits] First glance, this pops out as should be 750 gp, but I don't have time for a full anything.
Vathelokai 09-22-07, 05:29 PM	Wand of Expiditious Retreat [49/50 charges] [300 gp] [5 credits] First glance, this pops out as should be 750 gp, but I don't have time for a full anything. Oh yeah..... fixed.
Callix 09-22-07, 06:14 PM	If anyone needs a credit or two, Tweak needs someone to audit/imprison her. She's been in retirement for a long time, and may not be up to date with the new rules. I think I've fixed everything, but a double check would be great. I'll give it a go. I could use another 3 credits, and I've got the time. I'll start now.
Vathelokai 09-22-07, 06:25 PM	I'll give it a go. I could use another 3 credits, and I've got the time. I'll start now. Since she's still only ecl3, I don't think you can get full audit credits.
whitebaron 09-22-07, 06:28 PM	Since she's still only ecl3, I don't think you can get full audit credits. ecl3 = 1.5° :) but it's also much less work, since you don't need to audit much for rewards - this is checked in mere minutes, compared to e.g. having to audit/validate samuels fights was near impossible with all the links to the archives which didnt work at that time... (are they fixed yet?)
lonewolf 09-22-07, 06:32 PM	nope still cant do it since they are still in the archive
Callix 09-22-07, 07:03 PM	Anything's good. I've actually already done most of it. And Vath, you're not going to like some of it.
whitebaron 09-22-07, 07:08 PM	Anything's good. I've actually already done most of it. And Vath, you're not going to like some of it. well, you already found the riding dog, which made him let the char audit, so i guess he's up for it. ;)
Callix 09-22-07, 07:32 PM	The audit of Tweak! is in the prison, and it turns out her Perform package is illegal. With Bard as her first level, she can't have 5 bard ranks in Perform. Re-ordering her classes might let her have enough ranks, but would cost her 16 skill points. She'd pick up a few HP, though. Alternatively, she could spend her two Fighter skill points on one cross-class rank of Perform.
Rauul 09-22-07, 08:04 PM	Graashnak Levels after next fight.. and i have been thinking.. Slayer is what he was going to take... But Dang a level of Barbarian might be worth it before slayer.. Speed of thought (lvl 6 feat), Barbarian Speed, + skate = 70 movement (could add Longstrider for up to 80 movement)... Am sort of at a lost of what to do with him....
Rauul 09-22-07, 08:16 PM	while your all wanting to do audits.... anyone want to Audit Graashnak (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=10982573&postcount=1031) (his pps i know are right after 5 prison violations) but the rest could be off..
whitebaron 09-22-07, 08:18 PM	except that longstrider doesnt stack with skate, as both are an enhancement bonus, i'd say that 10ft extra is nothing to worry about. so this should not be an argument for or against barbarian. i'd personally go for the PrC as soon as possible, or let it be alltogether. (if you want to take it full levels, that is - which i'd always do, just for flavor if nothing else. - eberron marked my first time i've had to drop some levels of a PrC since dragonmark heir really is useless on lvl 5, there's only 2 of them now. ) @audit: hehe, next week if noone has done it before me. :) it's even better when he hits lvl 6, so one can audit that level too. :)
Rauul 09-22-07, 08:40 PM	except that longstrider doesnt stack with skate, as both are an enhancement bonus, i'd say that 10ft extra is nothing to worry about. so this should not be an argument for or against barbarian. @audit: hehe, next week if noone has done it before me. :) it's even better when he hits lvl 6, so one can audit that level too. :) Acually Longstrider is Enhancement, skate is circumstance bonus, Barbarian is an unnamed, and speed of thought is insight bonus.. no biggy will be 2-3 weeks before I activate him... (have others to activate)
Eamane 09-22-07, 08:46 PM	Looking for a questlord for next week, I want to run Kykal Aiba (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13207965) on a RP miniquest to explain her next class choice (Psion). She'll hit ECL 4 assuming the mq is successful. A trial of skill/etc by a mentor was the route I was thinking of, but it doesn't have to be anything in specific.
Vathelokai 09-22-07, 11:30 PM	Rule question: do you have to have a caster level to take a metamagic feat? Example: rogue1/wiz2, could they take a metamagic feat in their first lv feat slot. I couldn't find anything in the SRD saying it wasn't allowed, and as far as I know, you are allowed to take useless feats if you really want to.
NiQil 09-23-07, 01:15 AM	ecl3 = 1.5° :) but it's also much less work, since you don't need to audit much for rewards - this is checked in mere minutes, compared to e.g. having to audit/validate samuels fights was near impossible with all the links to the archives which didnt work at that time... (are they fixed yet?) This is 100% incorrect. You do not receive audit credits for a character that has not leveled. ECL 3 PC's by definition have not leveled since they have been activated. See the Prison Rules for further details.
Callix 09-23-07, 01:52 AM	Well, even another 0.3 credits is nice, and there were a few things I was able to show Vath, so it's not a total waste.
whitebaron 09-23-07, 12:36 PM	again a rules question: you need to make a dc10 ride check in order to attack from your warhorse if it attacked too. what about -casting spells? (check or not?) -first attacking self(no need for check) then ordering it to attack too (should not be done, obviously, but is this covered somewhere?) - trying the check and then decide whether to attack self or the mount attacks?
Abyssal Stalker 09-23-07, 01:19 PM	again a rules question: you need to make a dc10 ride check in order to attack from your warhorse if it attacked too. what about -casting spells? (check or not?) -first attacking self(no need for check) then ordering it to attack too (should not be done, obviously, but is this covered somewhere?) - trying the check and then decide whether to attack self or the mount attacks? 1. No ride check needed, unless you need to guide the mount with your knees (DC 5), but a concentration check at DC 10 is needed. But you should note that often it is impossible for a rider to cast a spell at the same time as the mount attacks, I'll get back to this in the next question. 2. This is also impossible. Now, the following might sound like a house rule, but this is actually covered in the RotG articles: All about mounts and thus considered a rules clarification in CoCo. The key in what can and can't be done when fighting from a mount is that the actions of the rider and the mount happen simultaneously. That leads us to a time window of one round of actions. So if the mount and the rider desire to make a standard action in the same round, they must do it at the same time - otherwise there is no time left for the other to take the action. So if the rider full attacks, it spends the whole "time window" and there is no time left for the mount to do anything. But the rider and the mount can full attack at the same time - if the rider succeeds in the ride check. What you are suggesting is that the rider and the mount could take two standard actions in the same round - and we all know that is not allowed. 3. I would look at the wording of the ride check in question. It says that "If you direct your war-trained mount to attack in battle, you can still make your own attack or attacks normally." I would say that failing the check means that only the mount may attack - the rider uses all his effort to hang on.
SauroGrenom 09-23-07, 05:03 PM	Rule question: do you have to have a caster level to take a metamagic feat? Example: rogue1/wiz2, could they take a metamagic feat in their first lv feat slot. I couldn't find anything in the SRD saying it wasn't allowed, and as far as I know, you are allowed to take useless feats if you really want to. We've ruled in CoCo several times that you cannot take a feat unless you "qualify" for it. That's not exactly applicable here, since there's no perquisite. But the general philosophy has been that if you cannot use a feat (allowing for permanent magic items or bonuses to satisfy perquisites), then you cannot take the feat. Applying that philosophy to your question says that you wouldn't be able to take the feat... But it hasn't been ruled directly in the court.
lonewolf 09-23-07, 05:09 PM	We've ruled in CoCo several times that you cannot take a feat unless you "qualify" for it. That's not exactly applicable here, since there's no perquisite. But the general philosophy has been that if you cannot use a feat (allowing for permanent magic items or bonuses to satisfy perquisites), then you cannot take the feat. Applying that philosophy to your question says that you wouldn't be able to take the feat... But it hasn't been ruled directly in the court. I dont think that is correct. This would mean that if you dont own a spiked chain you would not be allowed to take Exotic Weapon proficiency(spiked chain). You only need to fullfill prerequesites to take a feat. If you cannot use it thats your problem.
SauroGrenom 09-23-07, 05:26 PM	I dont think that is correct. This would mean that if you dont own a spiked chain you would not be allowed to take Exotic Weapon proficiency(spiked chain). You only need to fullfill prerequesites to take a feat. If you cannot use it thats your problem. That's different, the exotic weapon proficiency feat doesn't require any class features to use it... This is very different. Think more about a feat like Combat Casting. This doesn't have any preqs, but it's not usable unless you are casting or using a SLA. So it has an unstated "requirement" of having the ability to cast or use a SLA. Taking this feat at a level where you don't have casting ability, is very similar to taking some other feat that you cannot use till you gain the appropriate class features that it applies to.
lonewolf 09-23-07, 05:32 PM	That's different, the exotic weapon proficiency feat doesn't require any class features to use it... This is very different. Think more about a feat like Combat Casting. This doesn't have any preqs, but it's not usable unless you are casting or using a SLA. So it has an unstated "requirement" of having the ability to cast or use a SLA. Taking this feat at a level where you don't have casting ability, is very similar to taking some other feat that you cannot use till you gain the appropriate class features that it applies to. ok another example: would you allow a rogue using UMD to take Combat casting? I would.
Sjiggie 09-23-07, 05:35 PM	while your all wanting to do audits.... anyone want to Audit Graashnak (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=10982573&postcount=1031) (his pps i know are right after 5 prison violations) but the rest could be off.. I started on the audit of Graashnak just to let you guys know:P
Callix 09-23-07, 05:54 PM	That's different, the exotic weapon proficiency feat doesn't require any class features to use it... This is very different. Think more about a feat like Combat Casting. This doesn't have any preqs, but it's not usable unless you are casting or using a SLA. So it has an unstated "requirement" of having the ability to cast or use a SLA. Taking this feat at a level where you don't have casting ability, is very similar to taking some other feat that you cannot use till you gain the appropriate class features that it applies to. Except most feats that only work in conjunction with other features have those features as prerequisites. The penalty associated with choosing a feat you can't use, not because of prerequisites, but because you can't take the required action, is the uselessness of that feat at that point. And in case anyone brings up psionic feats and focus, the [Psionic] tag means the feat can only be taken by a psionic creature. Any psionic creature can at least try to gain psionic focus. Another example: we have two gunslingers moving through ECL 3 at the moment. Both of them took Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Firearms) at first level, even though it is impossible in CoCo for a first level character to own a firearm. Neither build as it stands would be much good at this level if EWP had to be their third-level feat; Rapid Reload becomes nigh-impossible, and Petyr for one is feat-starved until 15th. All the same, I'm no elder, so if there's a decision, I'll just bear it.
hogarth 09-23-07, 06:09 PM	That's different, the exotic weapon proficiency feat doesn't require any class features to use it... This is very different. Think more about a feat like Combat Casting. This doesn't have any preqs, but it's not usable unless you are casting or using a SLA. So it has an unstated "requirement" of having the ability to cast or use a SLA. Taking this feat at a level where you don't have casting ability, is very similar to taking some other feat that you cannot use till you gain the appropriate class features that it applies to. I prefer not to write brand new rules without a really compelling. Since there isn't any requirement for Extend Spell (for instance), I think anyone can take it (whether it makes sense or not). It's no different than a 5th level wizard taking the Quicken Spell feat, IMO.
TelinArtho 09-23-07, 08:28 PM	@Sauro - I have to say I disagree as well. For instance, the Power Attack/Combat Expertise feats have a prereq of Str 13/Int13 respectively. Although you actually need a BAB to make use of them, you can gain them even when your BAB is 0.
NiQil 09-23-07, 11:05 PM	After taking a couple of weeks off, and thinking long and hard about this forum, it is with much chagrin that I must respectfully resign my position as Elder and Prisonlord. My time here has been going for over 2 years now, and I have seen a variety of things and people come and go. But, overall, it has always been a fun place to be. Sadly, that is no longer true for me. As I have commented on in the past, I have noticed a prevailing attitude change in the participants in this forum. It has gone from being all about having fun and enjoying each others company with a hobby we all love to a somewhat selfish, overly competitive attempt to rub others nose in how good you are. I am not singling anyone out...this is just a generalization that I have noticed. I have been gone for a couple of weeks, and I haven't really missed it. I tried working up new builds to play...but my heart just wasn't in it. For those that have been here a while, you may have noticed that my posting has declined rather drastically in recent months. The change in attitude is why. I was tired of getting jumped on for voicing my opinion....and there is nothing I hate worse than getting told that my opinion is wrong. So, at this time, I must regretfully remove myself from these forums for the foreseeable future. I may check back from time to time, but my participation here is done for a while. So....it's been fun....but it's time to see what's on the other side of the next hill.
Vathelokai 09-23-07, 11:22 PM	I salute you, Prince FyreDragon.
Rauul 09-23-07, 11:45 PM	I for one will miss you NiQil... Have fun in your travels and come back and visit us... and Activate an elf for the Half-orc to pester :) Take care and when you get to the other side of the hill.. remember us once in a while
TelinArtho 09-24-07, 12:29 AM	As said by others - you will be missed NiQil. Nice throwback there Vath by bringing up Prince FyreDragon... we're probably one of only a few who were around when he had that ID. Anyway - sorry to see you go. Happy trails whereever you go.
Taureus_Drakken 09-24-07, 10:21 AM	In order to retrain my character to change one of the domains he has access to, what would I need to do? I believe it doesn't cost anything credit-wise. I would like to have the Magic domain, rather than the Darkness domain. ¬Taureus¬
TelinArtho 09-24-07, 10:23 AM	In order to retrain my character to change one of the domains he has access to, what would I need to do? I believe it doesn't cost anything credit-wise. I would like to have the Magic domain, rather than the Darkness domain. ¬Taureus¬ Post the change in the Training hall and once it is approved, link the approval to your character sheet.
Abyssal Stalker 09-24-07, 12:56 PM	So....it's been fun....but it's time to see what's on the other side of the next hill. :fight!: Well, we all at least know what will be on the other side of that hill. A bunch of dwarven fighters! Sad to see you go.
MindWandererB 09-24-07, 05:15 PM	:fight!: Well, we all at least know what will be on the other side of that hill. A bunch of dwarven fighters! Sad to see you go. I'm sorry to see you go, too, NiQil. I understand why, though. The atmosphere isn't as casual as it has been at better times. @Telin: Seeing as how I clearly don't have the time or energy to deal with it, I've decided to give you full authority over the mercenary situation. Deal with it as you see fit. You have the Pitlords password, so feel free to use it to update the rules and add mercs to the roster. Send me a PM whenever I have to add credits (and you'll get a credit whenever you do so for the admin work). Re: metamagic: Metamagic feats have no prerequisite. The prerequisite is the only thing that bars anyone from taking a feat--I don't know where this ruling about "if you can't use it, you can't take it" comes from. (I once "won" a contest to make the most useless level 20 character possible with a human fighter: eight metamagic feats, eleven Weapon Focus and Exotic Weapon Proficiency feats in lame weapons, and maxed out Cha and Wis.)
lonewolf 09-24-07, 05:20 PM	(I once "won" a contest to make the most useless level 20 character possible with a human fighter: eight metamagic feats, eleven Weapon Focus and Exotic Weapon Proficiency feats in lame weapons, and maxed out Cha and Wis.) Did you also take the most useless feat ever? Try to guess before you open this: Skill focus(speak language) :P
lonewolf 09-24-07, 05:31 PM	Anyone has any ideas for Samuels lvl6 Feat? The original plan was Leadership, but now I got a pegasus...
Eluria 09-24-07, 07:53 PM	Any comments on The Needle, my attempt at someone who utilizes attack/defend skill packages (and will hopefully end up as something of an evil, trapspringing cross between The Chameleon and Hood)?
Eamane 09-24-07, 08:40 PM	Any comments on The Needle, my attempt at someone who utilizes attack/defend skill packages (and will hopefully end up as something of an evil, trapspringing cross between The Chameleon and Hood)? Psionic shot means with luck you can win ECL3 battles even against Wands of Cure Light wounds, which otherwise own you. Wis 13 is good, you can get faster focusing later to maintain p.shot usage later on with greater p.shot. Do you plan on taking more levels of Psychic Warrior? If so, consider picking up a deepcrystal longbow. If you don't plan on taking more levels of Psychic Warrior... why did you take Psychic Warrior over Psion? Assassinate package never really wow'd me, I'd invest those skill ranks into making your arms/armor cheaper via Craft. (But of course, maybe you'll make it really great, I've just never seen it used well is all) Your plan for the future looks interesting and solid, but you don't seem to have a ready answer to Invisibility planned; with Invis, any random spellcaster will always get the drop on you, which makes you very vulnerable. @lonewolf Re: Samuel Hmm. Tough. Your ML level is a bit low, so Overchannel would help when you want to rely on your powers. (And Overchannel'd Vigor for instance, averages a net gain of 1 hp) Expand Knowledge is worth picking up now, as you can grab Astral Construct. Craft Universal Item could start putting your stored GP to more efficient use than buying something. Improved Natural Attack on your draining touch would be sweet if it's legal. Similarly, Flyby attack is the bees knees for flying combatants. Or you can still get leadership. Whats worse than fighting a Ghost psion riding a pegasus? Fighting a ghost psion riding a pegasus while fending off a druid. @Niqil Like I said before, sorry to see you go, but I hope you are happy wherever the wind blows you. Heh... Fyre, really? Learn something new every day. @all Any takers for the Miniquest for Kykal Aiva (http://forums.gleemax.com/leaving.php?destination=http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php%3Fp%3D13207965%23post132079 65)?
Callix 09-24-07, 11:49 PM	Any comments on The Needle, my attempt at someone who utilizes attack/defend skill packages (and will hopefully end up as something of an evil, trapspringing cross between The Chameleon and Hood)? Those Eviscerators are nasty... I'd guess you're looking forward to defending against a caster almost as much as attacking against a druid/mounted charger. 3d10 to the enemy or 3d6 (psi shot + sneak attack) +1d8+1 to an ally? Either is good, and can only really be fought by other rogues. Guess of next level: PW 2, 1 rank Concentration, Psionic Meditation as a bonus feat. From there? no idea, although more Rogue starts to become a necessity about ECL 5 to keep the skill packages up. Looks good to me, and use those Gather Information ranks. One standard start is to use Gather Information to get a custom item for Gather Information checks. Gets the rest of the goodies faster.
Vathelokai 09-25-07, 02:06 AM	Yet another new one.... The rebuild of Zodiac. I came to the conclusion that using the 'assassinate' package to cast dominate on leadership allies was just too evil to pass up. Fixed a number of his other problems as well. Save DCs are 2 pts. lower, but I'll make that up next lv (paragon +2 int and 4th HD +1 int at the same time). ECL3 will be rough, but after that...
Eluria 09-25-07, 06:11 AM	Yet another new one.... The rebuild of Zodiac. I came to the conclusion that using the 'assassinate' package to cast dominate on leadership allies was just too evil to pass up. Fixed a number of his other problems as well. Save DCs are 2 pts. lower, but I'll make that up next lv (paragon +2 int and 4th HD +1 int at the same time). ECL3 will be rough, but after that... That is a very nasty concept; it is just about the most disruptive thing I can imagine, basically meaning your opponent starts off the fight with his main ally dominated, right next to him - breaks any tactics, eliminates almost any chance of buffing, means you'll be able to find him right away.... the possibilities are endless! ECL3 will definately be tough, but the 2-3 sleeps looks potent :). Deflect arrows on a wizard is just plain evil. Maybe consider pushing heighten spell back (unless you need it just as is for red wizard/prc req's), and take the omnipresent and omnipotent craft wondrous for some pearls for backup sleeps? Dunno, Zodiac II seems pretty nasty. Those Eviscerators are nasty... I'd guess you're looking forward to defending against a caster almost as much as attacking against a druid/mounted charger. 3d10 to the enemy or 3d6 (psi shot + sneak attack) +1d8+1 to an ally? Either is good, and can only really be fought by other rogues. Guess of next level: PW 2, 1 rank Concentration, Psionic Meditation as a bonus feat. From there? no idea, although more Rogue starts to become a necessity about ECL 5 to keep the skill packages up. Looks good to me, and use those Gather Information ranks. One standard start is to use Gather Information to get a custom item for Gather Information checks. Gets the rest of the goodies faster. Yeah that's the general plan, actually. I figure at ECL3, 3d10 damage is a pretty hefty blow to most, but I am dreaming of some round0 trap kills of casters, it's true. Eventually the attack on an ally will hopefully be Psi Shot + Sneak attack + Dissolving weapon +/- poison as well, so there's some nice potential. Gather info will be used soon, but I have 0 money. Psionic shot means with luck you can win ECL3 battles even against Wands of Cure Light wounds, which otherwise own you. Wis 13 is good, you can get faster focusing later to maintain p.shot usage later on with greater p.shot. Do you plan on taking more levels of Psychic Warrior? If so, consider picking up a deepcrystal longbow. If you don't plan on taking more levels of Psychic Warrior... why did you take Psychic Warrior over Psion? Assassinate package never really wow'd me, I'd invest those skill ranks into making your arms/armor cheaper via Craft. (But of course, maybe you'll make it really great, I've just never seen it used well is all) I'm going to pick up one more PW level, but more for the feat than the PP; I'll never have enough PP to make DC useable for damage (although it's still a nice material, and a good thought). I took PW over psion to allow using items with Chameleon, Compression, and Dissolving Weapon. I may take a level of Psion later as well, more for another bonus feat and some random skills than for the powers (although using a dorje of ego whip seems like the only way to fight some of the monsters on those high ECL tables, like that half-dragon triceritops, etc). Assassinate package hasn't blown me away either, but I want to fool around with the fun packages more than craft more equipment. We'll see what happens. Thanks for the replies!
hogarth 09-25-07, 06:54 AM	Yeah that's the general plan, actually. I figure at ECL3, 3d10 damage is a pretty hefty blow to most, but I am dreaming of some round0 trap kills of casters, it's true. Because of CoCo house rules: You may only lower the CR of the trap of CR 6 (or greater) by one. Using weak features will still reduce the price normally. The trap still needs to be of legal CR for your character despite the weak features to reduce the price. Traps that would end up being CR 0 or less because of weak features are not allowed. Traps below CR 6 cannot have their CR reduced by weakness, but still benefit from being cheaper. your Eviscerator trap is CR 2, not CR 1 (average damage is > 10.5). Also, the Search and Disable Device modifiers need to be the same for a custom trap (another house rule): Search and Disable DCs must be equal. I think you better re-read the relevant CoCo house rules: http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=6467150#post6467150
Eluria 09-25-07, 07:09 AM	Because of CoCo house rules: your Eviscerator trap is CR 2, not CR 1 (average damage is > 10.5). Also, the Search and Disable Device modifiers need to be the same for a custom trap (another house rule): I think you better re-read the relevant CoCo house rules: http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=6467150#post6467150 Darnit Hogarth, you're entirely correct; I missed the Search=Disable DC part, and misinterpreted the "lowering CR" part of the earlier paragraph. I guess I'll stick with the Ginsu, and work on some other traps in the near future, after Gather Info'ing up some +2 search item.... d'oh.
Eluria 09-25-07, 07:12 AM	Entirely random open question: We allow Leadership allies to bring in their class allies (obviously), even when augmented by feats (imp familiar, for example). Could someone take Leadership, gaining the "UA: Enchanter (Cohort)" Variant: Cohort Upon reaching 6th level, an enchanter using this variant gains the service of a loyal cohort of the player's choice (with the game master's approval). The cohort is a 4th-level character when first gained; after that point, follow the normal rules described in the Leadership feat to determine the cohort's level, but treat the enchanter's level as being two lower than normal. The enchanter doesn't gain any followers from this ability. If the enchanter selects the Leadership feat, he attracts followers as normal, the penalty to the enchanter's effective level is eliminated, and the enchanter automatically qualifies for the "special power" modifier to his Leadership score. An enchanter using this variant permanently gives up the ability to obtain a familiar. Thus you'd have the main character, his leadership ally wizard enchanter, and that enchanter's cohort (maybe making the cohort a wizard with an improved familiar!)? I was originally thinking of a Wizard/Loremaster with craft wand and UMD, with an imp familiar, and a leadership wizard also with an imp familiar, who could all UMD crafted wands. However, with this enchanter variant, seems like you could conceivably end up with the main character, his leadership ally, and the cohort, all as decent casters in their own right... Taking it another step, imagine a Thrallherd level 15 with twofold master: 2 leadership allies, each enchanters, with a cohort, each with an improved familiar; that'd make one gladiator basically a 5-man party with 2 imps!.... oofh.
Sjiggie 09-25-07, 07:24 AM	I like the idea but it won't work in the CoCo. As discribed in the rules of gladius section allies I. Allies of my Ally: It might of course happen that you have an ally who has class allies on his own, like in case of a druid cohort who has an animal companion, or a thaumaturg's planar cohort might be a thrallherd whose thralls are sorcerers with familiars, and so on. To prevent the creation of a long string of allies, leadership-like class allies (thaumaturg's cohort and thralls) of your class ally do always count against your maxCA (see below). That means, you may use your cohort's class ally but it counts against your limit and might prevent to make use of your own cohort. If the class ally of your ally is a non-ECL creature, it can enter for free and does not count against your limit.
hogarth 09-25-07, 08:41 AM	Darnit Hogarth, you're entirely correct; I missed the Search=Disable DC part, and misinterpreted the "lowering CR" part of the earlier paragraph. I guess I'll stick with the Ginsu, and work on some other traps in the near future, after Gather Info'ing up some +2 search item.... d'oh. You might consider having a variable number of attacks (akin to the Fusillade of Darts trap). So, for instance, you could have 1d3 attacks each of which do 2d8 damage; then you can hope to roll high on the number of attacks.
Erithmu 09-25-07, 09:19 AM	Yet another new one.... The rebuild of Zodiac. I came to the conclusion that using the 'assassinate' package to cast dominate on leadership allies was just too evil to pass up. Fixed a number of his other problems as well. Save DCs are 2 pts. lower, but I'll make that up next lv (paragon +2 int and 4th HD +1 int at the same time). ECL3 will be rough, but after that... On thing to be careful there with Vath: Watch them casting times. Dominate person has a '1 round' casting time which you can't cast when you only get a standard from the assassinate package. Still ... Feeblemind, Phant killer, other save or dies ...
Prisonlords 09-25-07, 11:28 AM	Until further notice - I (TelinArtho) will be taking over as Prisonlords. Please note the latest roll call is up and I included a special note for my first one.
TelinArtho 09-25-07, 12:52 PM	@Telin: Seeing as how I clearly don't have the time or energy to deal with it, I've decided to give you full authority over the mercenary situation. Deal with it as you see fit. You have the Pitlords password, so feel free to use it to update the rules and add mercs to the roster. Send me a PM whenever I have to add credits (and you'll get a credit whenever you do so for the admin work). Okay then - here we go. For now - I'm going to keep Mercenary nominations here in the tavern. If it becomes too much traffic - I will create new thread(s) to work with the new format. Once I get the chance, I'll reformat the first few posts of the Propose a Mercenary thread to incorporate what I say below. Proposed Mercenaries: Below is the list of all of the proposed mercenaries, including ones that have already been approved (marked in italics) and ones that are not complete. In order to get more mercenaries approved, please ask for specific mercenaries. Once one is asked for, I will perform a thorough audit (to make sure the mercenary is valid), compare the mercenary to other active mercenaries, and finally make a decision to approve/deny the mercenary. This process requires two individuals for a merc to be approved. The first is assumed to be the merc's creator. The second is the individual asking for the merc to be added. The second individual is not the first one. Clear? Good. In general, if a mercenary's role is covered within +/- 1 ECL, then the mercenary won't likely be approved. Exceptions will occur at the lower ECLs. Also - if there is enough desire, the same method could be done to suggest a replacement for a currently active mercenary. Replacements should be within +/- 1 ECL of the current mercenary and fulfill the same role but in a significantly different way. As more mercenaries are proposed, I will keep this list up to date as it is needed. I will also find a permanent home for it in the future - just posting it in the tavern for the present time... Lastly, I have noted many of the below as "complete" - no one should take this statement as an indication that I have already performed an audit on the character in question. Many might still have issues - I just noted "complete" when it seemed to me that the character was mostly done. ECL1 Barak Wolfskinner Human Barbarian 1 (ECL1): complete, approved. Jazer Ik-Ahaman Human Druid 1 (ECL1): complete, approved. Aramil Kobold-Slayer Elf Ranger 1 (ECL1): complete, <not approved> Lawrence Gaius Human Paladin 1 (ECL1): complete, <not approved> Orrid Nuts Halfling Rogue 1 (ECL1): complete, <not approved> Gunnor Thwappen Forest Gnome Sorcerer 1 (ECL1): complete, <not approved> Liel Turom Maenad Bard 1 (ECL1): complete, <not approved> Evel Aol Human Cleric 1 (ECL1): complete, <not approved> Angela Bairns Human Cleric 1 (ECL1): complete, <not approved> Hunter Theor Human Rogue 1 (ECL1): complete, <not approved> Zane Therapodulous Human Bard 1 (ECL1): complete, <not approved> ECL2 Trillian Tallbow Elf Fighter 2 (ECL2): complete, approved. Barsimmon Oridio Wood Elf Ranger 2 (ECL2): complete, <not approved> Ohko Ono Maenad Barbarian 1/Druid 1 (ECL2): complete, <not approved> Turen Gill Human Rogue 1/Fighter 1 (ECL2): complete, <not approved> Bo Bert/Fo Bert Human Rogue 2 (ECL2 each): complete, <not approved> Don Relik Human Cleric 2 (ECL2): complete, <not approved> Private 618 Hobgoblin Fighter 1 (ECL2): complete, <not approved> ECL3 Manard Greenfist Wood Elf Monk 3 (ECL3): complete, <not approved> Yojimbo the Ronin Human Ex-monk 1/Fighter 2 (ECL3): complete, <not approved> Grauerholz Forest Gnome Illusionist 3 (ECL3): complete, approved. Sharellym Vlaln Drow Elf Cleric 1 (ECL3): complete, <not approved> Kemman Tovaritsch Elan Transmuter 3 (ECL3): complete, <not approved> Cliffbearer Half-Giant Ex-monk 1/Barbarian 1 (ECL3): complete, <not approved> Belark Methren Duergar (psionic) Psychic Warrior 2 (ECL3): complete, <not approved> Bedina Cassan Xeph Monk 3 (ECL3): complete, <not approved> Bedina Cassan Xeph Ex-Barbarian 1/Fighter 2 (ECL3): complete, <not approved> Hansel Human Ranger 2/Fighter 1 (ECL3): complete, <not approved> Alden Fosyth Human Cleric 3 (ECL3): complete, <not approved> Dizzy Pixarch Human Kineticist 3 (ECL3): complete, <not approved> ECL4 Sparks Goblin Expert 4 (ECL4): <invalid> Odruke Pureheart Human (Fallen) Paladin 4 (ECL4): complete, <not approved> Shanarra Wood Elf Fighter 2/Bard 2 (ECL4): complete, <not approved> Alex the Hunter Human Ranger 1/Fighter 2/Druid 1 (ECL4): complete, <not approved> Hauber Bulwark Mountain Dwarf Cleric 4 (ECL4): complete, approved. Alicia Human Wilder 4 (ECL4): complete, <not approved> ECL5 Andarian Greenleaf Venerable Human Druid 5 (ECL5): <incomplete> Kalor Middle-aged Sun Elf (not a valid race) Abjurer 5 (ECL5): <invalid> Simaro Arnerl Gray Elf Transmuter 5 (ECL5): complete, approved. Blaergh Ghoul (ECL5): complete, <not approved> ECL6 Xander the Dauntless Half-Giant Psychic Warrior 5 (ECL6): complete, approved. Ruffrrn Blink Dog (ECL6): complete, <not approved> Johan the "Long Knife" Human Rogue 6 (ECL6): complete, <not approved> Glittershell Dromite Cleric 4/Psychic Warrior 1 (ECL6): <incomplete> Bravo, the Exaggerator Half-Orc Barbarian 1/Bard 5 (ECL6): complete, <not approved> ECL7 Bobo the Brute Ogre Barbarian 1 (ECL7): complete, approved. Hanna the Wise Centaur Druid 1 (ECL7): complete, <not approved> ECL8 Calliandra "Cali" Talongate Human Abjurer (UA Variant) 8 (ECL8): complete, <not approved> Szaal'zass the Shaman Lizardfolk Cleric 5 (ECL8): complete, <not approved> ECL9 Destra Stormwind Human Druid 8/Barbarian 1 (ECL9): complete, <not approved> <No Name> <incomplete> <Nothing> <Nothing> <No Name> Gray Elf Wizard 1 (ECL1): <incomplete> [EDIT] I have updated posts 3 and 4 of the Propose a Mercenary thread with the Proposal steps (post 3) and the Proposed Mercenary Roster (post 4). If there's any questions - ask them here or send me a PM.
Rauul 09-25-07, 01:32 PM	Ok Telin.. How are we going approving the unapproved ones... Why is Sparks Labeled as <invalid> I have looked over the ECL 4's and have the Following Questions.. Shanarra (arrows should be under expendables?) Alicia-- Hiring is screwy.. Should be reworked to fit with the rest.. Alex the Hunter-- Hiring is screwy.. arrows need to be under expendables? Odruke Pureheart-- Looks good Looks like this batch was Sent in 2005 So some may be out of date... (may want to think about shooting the old posts and asking for new ones... )
TelinArtho 09-25-07, 02:03 PM	Sparks is invalid because of his "bombs" - which are not allowed. As for the others - like I said - I'll be doing a thorough audit before the approval is pushed through. If the original poster is not around anymore, I'll just make the needed changes to the sheet when they are added to the roster (since the merc roster references its own thread and not the proposed thread). Many of the ones in the list currently are probably invalid, but I don't want to throw out the work carte-blanche. If you see a design that is mostly there, it shouldn't be much to do about getting it approved. If it isn't "mostly" there - submit your own version as a replacement.
TelinArtho 09-25-07, 05:31 PM	Some time in the relative near future, I'm going to want to send my elemental priests on a joint quest to gain allies: Ialgo - Small Air Elemental and Small Fire Elemental. Dentik - 2 Small Earth Elementals. This would be a full quest at EL6 (primarily with 2EL4 encounters rather than individual CR6 creatures...). And yes - I'm fully aware they won't be able to use the allies until ECL5 - but if they succeed in the quest - they also both level up - so it is a non-issue. Any willing questlords? I'm very flexible on the start date - any time in october is just fine.
Rauul 09-25-07, 05:32 PM	still looking for a Questlord for shadow's miniquest in 2 weeks (well 8 days).. To get his Leadership cohort.. (His enforcer)
Rauul 09-25-07, 05:32 PM	Some time in the relative near future, I'm going to want to send my elemental priests on a joint quest to gain allies: Ialgo - Small Air Elemental and Small Fire Elemental. Dentik - 2 Small Earth Elementals. This would be a full quest at EL6 (primarily with 2EL4 encounters rather than individual CR6 creatures...). And yes - I'm fully aware they won't be able to use the allies until ECL5 - but if they succeed in the quest - they also both level up - so it is a non-issue. Any willing questlords? I'm very flexible on the start date - any time in october is just fine. full 3 week quest?
TelinArtho 09-25-07, 05:34 PM	full 3 week quest? Yes.
Rauul 09-25-07, 05:39 PM	Yes. Sent you a PM so you can fill what i am missing... But i am Interested in running a quest for you.. Just gimme the go ahead and time for when you want to start and i will research some and get back with yea..
Eamane 09-25-07, 05:43 PM	EDIT: @Rauul I'll do you're MQ. PM me with details and we'll get it started.
Vathelokai 09-25-07, 11:36 PM	That is a very nasty concept; it is just about the most disruptive thing I can imagine... the possibilities are endless! ... ECL3 will definitely be tough, but the 2-3 sleeps looks potent :). Deflect arrows on a wizard is just plain evil. Thanks!Maybe consider pushing heighten spell back (unless you need it just as is for red wizard/prc req's), and take the omnipresent and omnipotent craft wondrous for some pearls for backup sleeps? Dunno, Zodiac II seems pretty nasty.Problem is that with that first lv of non-caster class, I don't qualify for crafting feats at the normal times. Cannot pick up Craft wondrous until ECL4 (CL3) or later. I do need heighten (or another metamagic) for Red Wizard. Figured that heighten would work well for a super-high DC build. Still not sold on it though. On thing to be careful there with Vath: Watch them casting times... Blast! Your right. Hrmmm...75,000gp for a rod of quicken.... ouch. I think touch of ideocy or ray of enfeeble in the lower ECLs will work. Ghoul touch, cause fear/scare, blindness ... yeah.
Vathelokai 09-25-07, 11:49 PM	Okay then - here we go. For now - I'm going to keep Mercenary nominations here in the tavern. If it becomes too much traffic - I will create new thread(s) to work with the new format. ECL8 Calliandra "Cali" Talongate Human Abjurer (UA Variant) 8 (ECL8): complete, <not approved> If there's any questions - ask them here or send me a PM. Caliandra was 'approved' by Cat back in the day, however he didn't want to add her to the roster until the higher leagues were unfrozen (otherwise she would be hired for free every week, the way the rules were at the time). Looking over her, I want to add a level so she can get the lantern archon familiar (she was originally built with that, but Cat said no since we didn't have the imp. familiar rules at the time). Her hiring price/issues could use some work, and I'd like some feedback from anyone on her background/tactics. I'll post in the tavern when I think she's ready.
SauroGrenom 09-26-07, 12:04 AM	Yet another new one.... The rebuild of Zodiac. I came to the conclusion that using the 'assassinate' package to cast dominate on leadership allies was just too evil to pass up. Fixed a number of his other problems as well. Save DCs are 2 pts. lower, but I'll make that up next lv (paragon +2 int and 4th HD +1 int at the same time). ECL3 will be rough, but after that... I'd be cautions of some things. The first thing that pops out is that all the enchantment spells are will saves... and more than any other save there are strange immunities and bonuses that stack up in the will save category. Monks get a special bonus, there are several spells/powers that offer bonuses to will saves, there are some races with bonuses on will saves, there are several "types" that are immune to mind affecting effects... And so on. It looks like the character may be awesome vs humanoids with medium/low will saves, but look out against monsters or characters with great will saves...
Vathelokai 09-26-07, 12:13 AM	Point taken. Definitely going to diversify when I get a few more spell slots.
Vathelokai 09-26-07, 12:17 AM	Question for those who understand the trap rules... A wizard with craft trap and craft wondrous item can build traps. However, the DC for search/disable on magic traps is always more than 20. So, can a wizard choose to build a 'weaker' trap with 19s for search/disable, so that they can use it per the defense package rules (without cross-classing to rogue)? Any other things I should know?
MindWandererB 09-26-07, 12:58 AM	To everyone: Pairings may take me a little longer than usual tomorrow. I haven't had a chance to update the roster for this week, so I'll have to do that before starting on the pairings.
whitebaron 09-26-07, 09:10 AM	@vath: the core rules state no option to do so. weakening trap dcs etc. is only mentioned for mechanical traps. still not sure if you can do it in the coco, though. --- totally unrelated rules question concerning large or larger weapons and pricing: what is the correct price for a large(*2) masterwork (+300) composite longbow(100) with mighty +4(+400) ? within our team(Wiener Wadlbeisser) we are not sure about that. our suggested prices range from 900 (multiply only bow price) to 1600 (multiply all, even mwk cost, this is what the tool "pcgen" delivers as price) generally, special materials for large size are multiplied the way normal materials are(deduct masterwork cost if it is incorporated ine the price), while masterwork cost is always applied after multiplication is done. superior strength bonus is neither a material, nor is it without impact on the pricing. the tricky question is: is str to damage related to the material the bow is done from, or is it related to how the bow is made?
TelinArtho 09-26-07, 10:00 AM	Essentially, the only cost that is not multiplied for size is the [Ma] cost. So a large [Ma] Mighty (+4 str) Composite Longbow would cost: (100 (base) + 400 (str rating))*2 + 300 = 1300gp.
TelinArtho 09-26-07, 11:03 AM	Caliandra was 'approved' by Cat back in the day, however he didn't want to add her to the roster until the higher leagues were unfrozen (otherwise she would be hired for free every week, the way the rules were at the time). Looking over her, I want to add a level so she can get the lantern archon familiar (she was originally built with that, but Cat said no since we didn't have the imp. familiar rules at the time). Her hiring price/issues could use some work, and I'd like some feedback from anyone on her background/tactics. I'll post in the tavern when I think she's ready. Well go ahead and update her. If she does change ECL - let me know.
hogarth 09-26-07, 11:30 AM	Telin, I hereby "second" the following mercenaries: ECL1 Aramil Kobold-Slayer Elf Ranger 1 (ECL1): complete, <not approved> Lawrence Gaius Human Paladin 1 (ECL1): complete, <not approved> Orrid Nuts Halfling Rogue 1 (ECL1): complete, <not approved> Gunnor Thwappen Forest Gnome Sorcerer 1 (ECL1): complete, <not approved> Liel Turom Maenad Bard 1 (ECL1): complete, <not approved> Hunter Theor Human Rogue 1 (ECL1): complete, <not approved> Zane Therapodulous Human Bard 1 (ECL1): complete, <not approved> ECL2 Barsimmon Oridio Wood Elf Ranger 2 (ECL2): complete, <not approved> Ohko Ono Maenad Barbarian 1/Druid 1 (ECL2): complete, <not approved> Turen Gill Human Rogue 1/Fighter 1 (ECL2): complete, <not approved> Bo Bert/Fo Bert Human Rogue 2 (ECL2 each): complete, <not approved> Private 618 Hobgoblin Fighter 1 (ECL2): complete, <not approved> ECL3 Manard Greenfist Wood Elf Monk 3 (ECL3): complete, <not approved> Yojimbo the Ronin Human Ex-monk 1/Fighter 2 (ECL3): complete, <not approved> Sharellym Vlaln Drow Elf Cleric 1 (ECL3): complete, <not approved> Kemman Tovaritsch Elan Transmuter 3 (ECL3): complete, <not approved> Cliffbearer Half-Giant Ex-monk 1/Barbarian 1 (ECL3): complete, <not approved> Belark Methren Duergar (psionic) Psychic Warrior 2 (ECL3): complete, <not approved> Bedina Cassan Xeph Monk 3 (ECL3): complete, <not approved> Bedina Cassan Xeph Ex-Barbarian 1/Fighter 2 (ECL3): complete, <not approved> Hansel Human Ranger 2/Fighter 1 (ECL3): complete, <not approved> ECL4 Odruke Pureheart Human (Fallen) Paladin 4 (ECL4): complete, <not approved> Shanarra Wood Elf Fighter 2/Bard 2 (ECL4): complete, <not approved> Alex the Hunter Human Ranger 1/Fighter 2/Druid 1 (ECL4): complete, <not approved> Alicia Human Wilder 4 (ECL4): complete, <not approved> ECL6 Ruffrrn Blink Dog (ECL6): complete, <not approved> Johan the "Long Knife" Human Rogue 6 (ECL6): complete, <not approved> Bravo, the Exaggerator Half-Orc Barbarian 1/Bard 5 (ECL6): complete, <not approved> ECL7 Hanna the Wise Centaur Druid 1 (ECL7): complete, <not approved> ECL8 Calliandra "Cali" Talongate Human Abjurer (UA Variant) 8 (ECL8): complete, <not approved> Szaal'zass the Shaman Lizardfolk Cleric 5 (ECL8): complete, <not approved> ECL9 Destra Stormwind Human Druid 8/Barbarian 1 (ECL9): complete, <not approved>
TelinArtho 09-26-07, 11:39 AM	First off, no. Okay - let me make this a little more clear. Since the number of mercenaries is still going to be low - you should be very selective about the ones you want to see added. Also - you should pay attention to the roles already covered and not "second" ones that are already covered, unless you are specifically calling for a replacement (in which case - state that you want to replace x with y). Since I have to manually audit all proposals, do me a favor and limit yourself to one "second" at a time. I'm only one man - and I do have obligations outside of the CoCo. If you have a serious one to consider, let me know.
hogarth 09-26-07, 12:09 PM	First off, no. Agreed. :) Okay - let me make this a little more clear. Since the number of mercenaries is still going to be low - you should be very selective about the ones you want to see added. It was not at all clear (to me) that you intended to keep the number of mercenaries low. Where did you mention it? As far as I can tell, there is almost no barrier to adding new mercenaries (it just requires one person to "second the motion" and a clean bill of health), so the roster could grow quite quickly (as long as two people want it to).
Vathelokai 09-26-07, 12:28 PM	Perhaps we could offer 1 credit per audit on mercs through the prison. It wouldn't cause too much 'credit inflation', since they will be static after that. takes the work load off telin a bit.
whitebaron 09-26-07, 12:45 PM	Perhaps we could offer 1 credit per audit on mercs through the prison. It wouldn't cause too much 'credit inflation', since they will be static after that. takes the work load off telin a bit. i second that. but audits will have to be requested by telin, else i'd gladly audit any ecl 1,2,3 and gain mass-credits. @low number of mercs: i can understand why you don't want to have too many mercs that are basically the same, but the +/-1 ecl is something i can not understand at lower levels. e.g.: sorcerer wants to get a meat shield, himself at ecl5. so you can get the ecl 1 15 hp barbarian, or nothing, since its covered with ecl1 + ecl4 merc. btw: the link to propose your mercenary in the mercenary roster is broken. ;)
TelinArtho 09-26-07, 12:56 PM	Agreed. :) It was not at all clear (to me) that you intended to keep the number of mercenaries low. Where did you mention it? As far as I can tell, there is almost no barrier to adding new mercenaries (it just requires one person to "second the motion" and a clean bill of health), so the roster could grow quite quickly (as long as two people want it to). Well - I guess by saying that the roster would never/rarely include multiple instances of the same/similar role I assumed that the message would be carried across. I even punctuated this be mentioning that since Barak (melee fighter) and Trillian (ranged fighter) were already in ECL1 and 2 that it would be unlikely to see another of those roles below ECL4, unless one or both were replaced. Perhaps we could offer 1 credit per audit on mercs through the prison. It wouldn't cause too much 'credit inflation', since they will be static after that. takes the work load off telin a bit. I'm a little hesitant about this. Audits of the mercs won't take nearly as long as a real audit (no fights to reference, very static array of stats, abilities, money range). Giving a full credit for this (especially for ECL1 and 2 mercs) is probably a bit much. That said - I welcome anyone to look over the existing and future Mercs on the roster for violations. Cat did make changes between the proposals and the final versions and some of these changes actually did not work. Also - the existing mercs may not be currently valid - which should be checked. Performing the audit also gives me an in-depth view of the Merc, which will help me designate what role(s) it fits into so I can work with whether it will be added or not.
hogarth 09-26-07, 01:10 PM	Well - I guess by saying that the roster would never/rarely include multiple instances of the same/similar role I assumed that the message would be carried across. I even punctuated this be mentioning that since Barak (melee fighter) and Trillian (ranged fighter) were already in ECL1 and 2 that it would be unlikely to see another of those roles below ECL4, unless one or both were replaced. I guess I read it the other way -- that there's room for the following at ECL 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, etc. melee fighter ranged fighter sneaky fighter cleric/healer druid/summoner bard offensive caster support caster "monster" I'm sure there are other roles that I'm missing. At any rate, I would suggest going through the current list of proposed mercenaries and accepting/rejecting them before soliciting a bunch of new ones. As you pointed out, we can reject a bunch of them based on duplication of roles.
TelinArtho 09-26-07, 01:16 PM	There might be room for all of those roles at any particular ECL (+/- 1), but I don't think we will fill it for quite a while. I don't really want to add a bunch of mercs that look "okay" to me - because I have very different wants and ideas on what makes a good merc. I would very much prefer to see people offer up the mercs that they look at and say - "Hey - I would use that guy right now" or "Hey - I would use that guy with this build I've been thinking of" or something similar. If I don't get any motions to get more mercs added - I'll see about changing the way I've set it up. I would certainly prefer to have the input of the CoCo population rather than work it out on my own (which is exactly the problem I had with the way it was set up before...)
whitebaron 09-26-07, 01:31 PM	well, i hate to quote myself, but this seems to be overlooked. -> @low number of mercs: i can understand why you don't want to have too many mercs that are basically the same, but the +/-1 ecl is something i can not understand at lower levels. e.g.: sorcerer wants to get a meat shield, himself at ecl5. so you can get the ecl 1 15 hp barbarian, or nothing, since its covered with ecl1 + ecl4 merc.
TelinArtho 09-26-07, 01:48 PM	Already addressed: In general, if a mercenary's role is covered within +/- 1 ECL, then the mercenary won't likely be approved. Exceptions will occur at the lower ECLs. Also - if there is enough desire, the same method could be done to suggest a replacement for a currently active mercenary. Replacements should be within +/- 1 ECL of the current mercenary and fulfill the same role but in a significantly different way. Before duplicate roles are covered, I'd much more rather see variety. However, the motions to second one proposal or another will be more a voice for what is wanted than anything else. EDIT - Also - for what its worth - Hauber falls less into the category of a melee fighter and more into a supportive caster.
Eamane 09-26-07, 01:51 PM	Re: Mercenaries I'm with whitebaron on this one, the ECL +/- 1 feels overly restrictive. I can see not wanting multiple archetypes in the same ECL, but when you stretch it out so one mercenary covers three ECLs... It's a bit silly. Or to put it another way; if you do that, mercenaries are only able to compete with cohorts at all for very, very brief windows. EDIT: Yay for exceptions. Okay, sounds workable then.
hogarth 09-26-07, 02:07 PM	I don't really want to add a bunch of mercs that look "okay" to me - because I have very different wants and ideas on what makes a good merc. I would very much prefer to see people offer up the mercs that they look at and say - "Hey - I would use that guy right now" or "Hey - I would use that guy with this build I've been thinking of" or something similar. If I don't get any motions to get more mercs added - I'll see about changing the way I've set it up. I would certainly prefer to have the input of the CoCo population rather than work it out on my own (which is exactly the problem I had with the way it was set up before...) I don't think you can have it both ways -- allowing anyone to add a mercenary in a democratic way as well as having Telin's personal "seal of approval". Personally I didn't have a problem with the old autocratic way of adding mercenaries to the roster (or not adding, as the case may be). Or you could go for a completely impersonal list: just use the generic barbarian, fighter, cleric, etc. NPCs from the DMG for each level. Then if someone wants a level 3 barbarian (say), they can just look it up in the table.
TelinArtho 09-26-07, 02:13 PM	Except - people like me don't have the generic lists because we use the SRD only... I definitely don't like that idea - it just takes away the more interesting aspect of mercs (to me). And as for not having it both ways - can we at least give my method a try? I'm not saying its perfect - but my vision is that it will work better than an individual poring over it and saying yay or nay - regardless of whether someone even wants the merc to begin with...
Rauul 09-26-07, 02:15 PM	Ok Telin i audited the following... Moved arrows to Expendables, added spells, Corrected what i saw was wrong and checked it over for mistakes.. Is this what your Looking for? Shanarra Swift as a flying Dragon Mercenary Requirements Cost to hire: 400 gold Requirement: Gladiator must be proficient with the composite longbow/Short bow Female Wood Elf Chaotic Good Fighter 2/ Bard 2 STR...16 [+3]...(06 pts) DEX...18 [+4]...(10 pts) [Base 18, +2 Racial] CON...10 [+0]...(03 pts) [Base 11, -2 Racial, +1 @4th] INT....06 [-2]...(00 pts) [Base 08, -2 Racial] WIS...08 [-1]...(00 pts) CHA...14 [+2]...(06 pts) Hit Points: 24 [3 HD] AC 18 [+4 dex, +4 armor], Touch 15, Flat 14 Initiative: +4 [4 dex] BAB/Grap: +3/+6 [+3 bab, +3 str] Speed 30' [base 30'] Saves: Fort +03 [3 Ftr +0 con] Refl +07 [3 Bard +4 dex] Will +02 [3 Bard -1 wis] +2 racial vs. enchantment, immune to sleep spells and effects. Attacks: [Ma] Mighty (+3) Comp Longbow +9 ranged, 1d8+3 [19-20/x2] [120' range] [+1 to attack and damage within 30'] [Ma] Longsword +7 melee, 1d8+4 [19-20/x2] [Two Handed] Rapid Shot: +7/+7 ranged, 1d8+3 [19-20/x2] [120' range] [+1 to attack and damage within 30'] Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus [Longbow] Spells memorized: [DcX+lvl] [3/1/] [Spell levels: 1 ; Cast: (1/3 of spell-levels)] 0: Mage hand, Resistance, Dancing lights, Read magic 1: Expeditious Retreat, Cure Light wounds Racial and Class Abilities: Bardic Music, Bardic Knowledge, Countersong, Arcane Spellcasting, Fascinate, Inspire Courage +1, Bonus Feats, Proficient With all simple and martial weapons, all types of armor, and all types of shields, +2 Strength, –2 Intelligence, +2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution, Immune to sleep, +2 vs enchantment, +2 listen, search, and spot checks. Skills (5 Points Fighter, 8 Points Bard): 13 points +07 Perform [3 rnks, +2 Cha, +2 Tool] [3 Bard] +09 Ride [5 rnks, +4 Dex] [5ftr] +03 Spellcraft [5 ranks, -2 Int] [5 Bard] +01 Listen [0 rnks, -1 Wis, +2 Racial] [0pal] +01 Spot [0 rnks, -1 Wis, +2 Racial] [0 Bard] Speaks Common and Elven Equipment: Spent 1,952/3,300gp 1,348gp remaining Elven foresters Gear [Ma] Chain Shirt [25 lbs][250 gp] [Ma] Buckler [5 lbs][165 gp] [Ma] Mighty (+3) Composite Longbow [3 lbs][700 gp] [Ma] Longsword [4 lbs][315 gp] [B]Expendable Items: [CL] Quiver with 120 arrows [18 lbs][6 gp] Quiver with 20 Adamantine arrows [3 lbs][61 gp] Quiver with 20 Cold Iron arrows [3 lbs][2 gp] Quiver with 20 Alchemical Silver arrows [3 lbs][3 gp] Oil of Magic Weapon [(CL1)] [-- lbs][50 gp] Tatoo of Skate [(ML1)] [-- lbs][100 gp] Potion of Cat's Grace [(CL3)] [-- lbs][300 gp] Miscellaneous Statistics: Encumbance: 0-76 (light), 77-153 (medium), 154-230 (heavy) Weight carried: 64 lb Character Background: Shannara is an archer from the nearby forest. She enters Gladius in pursuit of the perfection with her chosen weapon -the longbow. She hopes one day to become as powerful as the fabled arcane archers of legend and will do almost anything to meet that goal. Shannara knows that mobility is as useful to a gladiator as a good set of armor. If she can gain any sort of speed advantage over the enemy she will use it. She likes horses and rides whenever possible, hoping to one day learn the art of mounted bowmanship. In a battle, she'll stay away from allies, moving alone from cover point to cover point searching for the perfect shot. Mercenary provided by Iced.
Eamane 09-26-07, 02:22 PM	Re: Shannara If she has more than 1k gp left over, as it looks like she does, upgrade the chain shirt to a +1 chain shirt. Mercs need all the optimization they can get, imho. Similarly, the buckler and longbow can be converted into Darkwood items of the same with a very small increase in gp. Re: Other things Given that a team of 2 characters fights at it's ECL +2, it would be possible to make two level one characters and have them fight in the ECL 3 rank, right? If so, anyone interested in doing so? I'd make a blaster psion, I think.
Rauul 09-26-07, 02:32 PM	Re: Shannara If she has more than 1k gp left over, as it looks like she does, upgrade the chain shirt to a +1 chain shirt. Mercs need all the optimization they can get, imho. Similarly, the buckler and longbow can be converted into Darkwood items of the same with a very small increase in gp. Re: Other things Given that a team of 2 characters fights at it's ECL +2, it would be possible to make two level one characters and have them fight in the ECL 3 rank, right? If so, anyone interested in doing so? I'd make a blaster psion, I think. I was thinking about that.. but i figured she was saving to have elemental damage added to the Bow... I wanted to keep it as Close as Iced originally posted without going overboard... Btw you realize you have to be ECL 5+ to use mercs right... and yes at ECL 5 you could hire up to 3 ECL 1 mercs
TelinArtho 09-26-07, 02:33 PM	Yes and no Rauul. First off - you did correct by moving the arrows and such into the Expendable category. What you didn't do was check to see if the expendables were valid. Mercs can have a maximum of 10% of their money in expendables. For an ECL4 merc - that's 330gp. Shanarra is toting around 522gp worth of expendables. As for Eamane's suggestions - those would be fine as well (the upgrading of the armor, the changing of materials, etc). Of course, it would be helpful to send the updated sheet to Iced and see if he would update it accordingly. (Or maybe just PM him to see if he will and send the sheet after). EDIT - more issues on Shanarra: Doesn't list a perform method. Perform also lists a +2 bonus from a tool - but did not purchase a masterwork instrument (100gp). Missing the required skills (Balance, Climb, Jump, Hide and Move Silently). The entry for the long sword is "two-handed" - but doesn't take into account the penalty for using a weapon with the same hand that the buckler is attached to. Range on the longbow is just wrong... should be 110ft. It also has a wrong crit range and multiplier - should be 20/x3 - not 19-20/x2. HP is incorrect (10 + 5.5 + 3.5*2 = 22 not 24). AC does not reflect the Buckler equipped.
Eamane 09-26-07, 02:39 PM	*snip*Btw you realize you have to be ECL 5+ to use mercs right... and yes at ECL 5 you could hire up to 3 ECL 1 mercs Nah, you got me wrong. I'm talking about a band of PCs, a 'group' as the rules calls it. There are two active groups atm, the Battlesong Duet and the new one that just fought at ECL 5. I was proposing to start a group that would start in the ECL 3 bracket; if anyone was interested in making the other half and if it was legal to do so. I'd need to know the starting gold/exp amounts for level 1 PCs in coco though.
TelinArtho 09-26-07, 02:42 PM	@Eamane - not sure if it is allowed - (starting exp and gold are not listed for ECL1,2 characters). If it is - count me in. I've been looking to do a party for a while - but haven't had much incentive yet... If it isn't - I'd also be willing to try one at ECL3 each (to start in the ECL5 bracket).
Rauul 09-26-07, 02:44 PM	Nah, you got me wrong. I'm talking about a band of PCs, a 'group' as the rules calls it. There are two active groups atm, the Battlesong Duet and the new one that just fought at ECL 5. I was proposing to start a group that would start in the ECL 3 bracket; if anyone was interested in making the other half and if it was legal to do so. I'd need to know the starting gold/exp amounts for level 1 PCs in coco though. oh sorry.. I am still waiting for a group to get so they both get Cohorts... and Familiars.. and Watch Pitlords cry when they get one of those fights...
Rauul 09-26-07, 02:45 PM	@Eamane - not sure if it is allowed - (starting exp and gold are not listed for ECL1,2 characters). If it is - count me in. I've been looking to do a party for a while - but haven't had much incentive yet... If it isn't - I'd also be willing to try one at ECL3 each (to start in the ECL5 bracket). gawd let the half orc level out of ECL 5 before another team comes in!!!! edit=>Unless your Elves... then bring it on
TelinArtho 09-26-07, 02:50 PM	@Rauul - look back on the post I commented about the audit you did. There's still quite a few errors to fix - and I'm not done yet either.
Rauul 09-26-07, 02:55 PM	@Rauul - look back on the post I commented about the audit you did. There's still quite a few errors to fix - and I'm not done yet either. Yea i am looking it over... Now that my head is starting to clear of meds..
TelinArtho 09-26-07, 02:56 PM	Well - I'm done for now. Time to help out MWB.
whitebaron 09-26-07, 03:43 PM	gawd let the half orc level out of ECL 5 before another team comes in!!!! edit=>Unless your Elves... then bring it on yeah, let him level to ecl6 where our team is just starting this week! ;) @eamane: starting xp would be 0, most likely (since 3*300 xp for ecl1 encounters would make you just one bit short of leveling, which is the case for all new chars at all ecls - you need 3 wins+1 other fight, or 9 losses+1 other fight ) starting gp is a problem @ ecl1, as even with factor 1:1 this would result in 0. if you use the standard gold-pieces from the phb, it is unbalanced. some classes just get much more gold. maybe it would be possible to start at ecl2. 1000 gold and 1100 xp seem likely to work out better. the main problem here is the xp-table. at level 1,2,3 you get the same xp for winning. the xp progression is the main issue, as you get 300 xp for winning alone against an ecl1 char, and 450 xp each for winning as pair against an ecl3 character, which should be roughly the same difficulty.
Eamane 09-26-07, 04:22 PM	yeah, let him level to ecl6 where our team is just starting this week! ;) @eamane: starting xp would be 0, most likely (since 3*300 xp for ecl1 encounters would make you just one bit short of leveling, which is the case for all new chars at all ecls - you need 3 wins+1 other fight, or 9 losses+1 other fight ) starting gp is a problem @ ecl1, as even with factor 1:1 this would result in 0. if you use the standard gold-pieces from the phb, it is unbalanced. some classes just get much more gold. maybe it would be possible to start at ecl2. 1000 gold and 1100 xp seem likely to work out better. the main problem here is the xp-table. at level 1,2,3 you get the same xp for winning. the xp progression is the main issue, as you get 300 xp for winning alone against an ecl1 char, and 450 xp each for winning as pair against an ecl3 character, which should be roughly the same difficulty. XP would start over 0 as all characters start with a certain amount of 'buffer' xp for crafting purposes; Which is why you start at 3,200 rather than 3,000 at ECL 3, for instance. 200 of 3,000 is 0.06 (The underlined represents a repeating number), however this percentage is not maintained as one advances up through the ECLs; 300 is 0.05 percent of 6,000 for instance, and it's also 0.05 at ECL 5. Using 0.05 of the amount necessary to reach your level still leaves a lvl 1 character with 0 xp, but it can be used to extrapoliate lvl 2 starting xp at least (1050). EDIT: Another way to do it is to look at the buffer xp as a percentage of the amount needed to advance to the next level... This keeps the ECL 3 percentage the same at 0.066, ECL 4 percentage becomes 0.075, ECL 5 is 0.1, ECL 6 is 0.833 (The ECL 6 buffer exp is exactly the same as the ECL 5 buffer xp; design flaw?), ECL 7 is 0.142857 (Also known as 'one seventh') Mmm. So looking at it one way it's a slowly decreasing percentage of minimum XP, the other way it's a slowly increasing percentage of xp-to-next-level. The second method is the only one that allows a number other than 0 for level one.
Rauul 09-26-07, 07:13 PM	yeah, let him level to ecl6 where our team is just starting this week! ;) Your team would be harder.. but the "Psionic Elf" would be in for a world of hurt.. +4 to damage.. (+2 for elf +2 for Psionic Elf).. Actually looking over your team... once Graashnak levels up i wouldn't mind meeting them in the Forest or Cavern.. Would be fun!
Rauul 09-26-07, 07:16 PM	XP would start over 0 as all characters start with a certain amount of 'buffer' xp for crafting purposes; Which is why you start at 3,200 rather than 3,000 at ECL 3, for instance. 200 of 3,000 is 0.06 (The underlined represents a repeating number), however this percentage is not maintained as one advances up through the ECLs; 300 is 0.05 percent of 6,000 for instance, and it's also 0.05 at ECL 5. Using 0.05 of the amount necessary to reach your level still leaves a lvl 1 character with 0 xp, but it can be used to extrapoliate lvl 2 starting xp at least (1050). EDIT: Another way to do it is to look at the buffer xp as a percentage of the amount needed to advance to the next level... This keeps the ECL 3 percentage the same at 0.066, ECL 4 percentage becomes 0.075, ECL 5 is 0.1, ECL 6 is 0.833 (The ECL 6 buffer exp is exactly the same as the ECL 5 buffer xp; design flaw?), ECL 7 is 0.142857 (Also known as 'one seventh') Mmm. So looking at it one way it's a slowly decreasing percentage of minimum XP, the other way it's a slowly increasing percentage of xp-to-next-level. The second method is the only one that allows a number other than 0 for level one. Honestly... team play should be limited to ECL 5 and above... a New Player hitting a team in ECL 3 may be overwhelmed Especully if the team has been active and is about to advance.. Falls under the Same Catagoy as why Lighting, allies and Merc's aren't allowed at ECL 3...
Callix 09-26-07, 07:24 PM	Your team would be harder.. but the "Psionic Elf" would be in for a world of hurt.. +4 to damage.. (+2 for elf +2 for Psionic Elf).. Actually looking over your team... once Graashnak levels up i wouldn't mind meeting them in the Forest or Cavern.. Would be fun! Favored Enemy (Elves) and Favored Enemy (Psionic Elves) wouldn't stack, would they? I think you'd just take the higher, but I'd definitely appreciate being wrong. This'd help Petyr even more, and he's already my most successful creation.
Salrantol 09-26-07, 07:26 PM	Can allies surrender and be removed from harm's way without the player surrendering?
whitebaron 09-26-07, 07:32 PM	as far as i know, you can declare them noncombattant any time - though xp penalties still apply even if you do this at the start of the fight...
templer10 09-26-07, 07:49 PM	Can allies surrender and be removed from harm's way without the player surrendering? YOu can choose to not bring them to a fight - But they still count towards rewards - if you DO bring them to the fight they are fair game - but if you probably order them to run away at some point they arent that likely to be chased since they arent the primamry target.
templer10 09-26-07, 07:53 PM	Nah, you got me wrong. I'm talking about a band of PCs, a 'group' as the rules calls it. There are two active groups atm, the Battlesong Duet and the new one that just fought at ECL 5. I was proposing to start a group that would start in the ECL 3 bracket; if anyone was interested in making the other half and if it was legal to do so. I'd need to know the starting gold/exp amounts for level 1 PCs in coco though. I was looking to starting a team - but not at the ECL 3 bracket - level 1 charcters are all but useless IMO - especially if one of them is a caster.
Rauul 09-26-07, 08:01 PM	Favored Enemy (Elves) and Favored Enemy (Psionic Elves) wouldn't stack, would they? I think you'd just take the higher, but I'd definitely appreciate being wrong. This'd help Petyr even more, and he's already my most successful creation. considering it doesn't say they do or they don't... Most prestige classes stack with basic class functions.. Both rangers and slayers get additional +'s as they advance vs favorite enemy.. Also you have to take into consideration.. Slayer class is a Bastardized version of Illithid Slayer from psionic handbook.. So honestly i don't know... will have to put it in council..
Macbrea 09-27-07, 08:46 AM	The additional favored enemies should do the extra +2 damage per time your effected. And you cannot have favored enemy (elf) Technically you have the following two: Favored Enemy (Humanoid (elf)) +2 Favored Enemy (Humanoid (elf, psionic)) +2 As they are unnamed bonuses they should stack. So, you should get +4 vs humanoid (elf,psionics).
Callix 09-27-07, 08:53 AM	But they're both bonuses from the Favored Enemy ability, which means they're from the same source. Also: If the ranger chooses humanoids or outsiders as a favored enemy, he must also choose an associated subtype, as indicated on the table. If a specific creature falls into more than one category of favored enemy, the ranger’s bonuses do not stack; he simply uses whichever bonus is higher. I knew there was a rule reference somewhere.
McJarvis 09-27-07, 09:16 AM	To and fro, fro and to. I'm here, and then I'm not. Then I'm here, but not battling- then I'm not again. I'm not giving up on you guys- my life has just gotten a bit busy lately. I just accepted a new position as a Mathematics curriculum writer in the DC area. I'm in the process of moving- once I'm all set, I should be coming back.
TelinArtho 09-27-07, 10:00 AM	To and fro, fro and to. I'm here, and then I'm not. Then I'm here, but not battling- then I'm not again. I'm not giving up on you guys- my life has just gotten a bit busy lately. I just accepted a new position as a Mathematics curriculum writer in the DC area. I'm in the process of moving- once I'm all set, I should be coming back. Well - we're still here - so come back when you can.
whitebaron 09-27-07, 11:22 AM	i need one or two up to 15hd creatures to polymorph into, which are your favorites for that level? :) maximum size: large the are quite some giants of course, but an aberration, magical beast or monstrous humanoid would be preferred due to flavour issues.
TelinArtho 09-27-07, 11:44 AM	Well - do you have access to Metamorphic Transfer or anything like that to make it more than just a physical attribute/natural armor/speed question? Some ones that come to mind: Fire Giant Androsphinx Lammasu I don't use polymorph a lot though - so I'm probably not the best to answer...
lonewolf 09-27-07, 11:49 AM	Stone Giant would be an alternative to Fire Giant. Less Strength but much better AC. He doesnt have Metamorphic Transfer. I know what he needs it for, but I wont tell. :P
Salrantol 09-27-07, 12:43 PM	If you've got MM2, it's tough to beat the firbolg. Otherwise, for the non-giant types you want, go with shrieking hag from unapproachable east. :P (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-175846)
Rauul 09-27-07, 01:13 PM	But they're both bonuses from the Favored Enemy ability, which means they're from the same source. Also: I knew there was a rule reference somewhere. Yes Callix, Rangers Favored Enemy's don't stack.. But that don't Say nothing about Slayers (Slayers is the only other Guild and A Prestige class that has a Favored Enemy) As Macbrea said they are Unnamed bonuses... and Unnamed bonuses usually stack..
hogarth 09-27-07, 03:26 PM	I was looking to starting a team - but not at the ECL 3 bracket - level 1 charcters are all but useless IMO - especially if one of them is a caster. If you're looking for a partner, I've been considering joining a team as well. What kind of character did you have in mind?
hogarth 09-27-07, 03:31 PM	More Polymorph suggestions: -Hoary Steed -Roper (6 ranged touch attacks that can do 2d8 Str damage) -Shambling Mound (plant immunities)
Eamane 09-27-07, 03:36 PM	Re: Teams That's a good point, I guess. Hmm. Lots of people seem to be interested in making a team! I've already commited to teaming up with Telin; but of course there is the possibility of teams with more than two people. Though I'm fairly sure we'll get pushed around by anyone with area effect damage spells... what say you guys to the first four-man team!?! COCO's Regulars, transform and roll out! Okay so I stole the slogan from Optimus Prime, but still >.> A four-man team could use a rogue to it's full potential! Clerics could go back to actually healing things! Plus, a four-man team quest/miniquest would be like a mini-campaign! Awesomeness!
templer10 09-27-07, 03:46 PM	Re: Teams That's a good point, I guess. Hmm. Lots of people seem to be interested in making a team! I've already commited to teaming up with Telin; but of course there is the possibility of teams with more than two people. Though I'm fairly sure we'll get pushed around by anyone with area effect damage spells... what say you guys to the first four-man team!?! COCO's Regulars, transform and roll out! Okay so I stole the slogan from Optimus Prime, but still >.> A four-man team could use a rogue to it's full potential! Clerics could go back to actually healing things! Plus, a four-man team quest/miniquest would be like a mini-campaign! Awesomeness! Intresting idea But not sure it would work in practice a 7th level charcter can wipe the floor with most 4 men ECL 3 teams and a 10th or 11th level char can absolutly destroy that same team... (well the guys i make anyway - but iam kind of an optimizer...). on another note - pitlording a 4 men party + mountes + a leadership guy.... shudder...
TelinArtho 09-27-07, 03:49 PM	I'd rather just focus on the two-man team for now. After I see the 3-man team in action - I might be willing to try another team later on - but I think it would require some good communication among the players. Lonewolf/whitebaron/mucki have the advantage of all knowing each other in real life (assuming I'm remembering correctly) - so they can get together to plan things out. With limited access to aim or some other chat engine - I'd be pretty much out of the loop...
Eamane 09-27-07, 03:53 PM	It was more just a sudden bolt of inspiration than anything else. But yeah... four characters with any kinds of allies makes any given fight an instant pitlord nightmare! <puts the idea back on the shelf>
TelinArtho 09-27-07, 04:11 PM	Okay - I need a clarification about Parties vs Attack/Defend packages. According to the rules - Attack/Defend packages only apply to 1v1 fights. Parties are treated as if they were an interleague group. Does that mean that they cannot be affected by Attack/Defend packages? By extension - they can't use Attack/Defend packages themselves?
templer10 09-27-07, 05:00 PM	i need a reminder - when using a Tower shield for total cover - it only grants cover towards the direction the guy holding the shield is facing correct?
TelinArtho 09-27-07, 05:26 PM	Correct.
Rauul 09-27-07, 05:39 PM	Okay - I need a clarification about Parties vs Attack/Defend packages. According to the rules - Attack/Defend packages only apply to 1v1 fights. Parties are treated as if they were an interleague group. Does that mean that they cannot be affected by Attack/Defend packages? By extension - they can't use Attack/Defend packages themselves? I think that the party is considered 1 for the Package.. BUT they have the advantage of using the highest skills of either member to overcome it..
TelinArtho 09-27-07, 05:47 PM	I think that the party is considered 1 for the Package.. BUT they have the advantage of using the highest skills of either member to overcome it.. That could be very broken... picture one character picking a race with bonuses for one of the set of skills (Lizardfolk) while the other maxes out on the other skills needed (pick something else...)
Rauul 09-27-07, 06:32 PM	That could be very broken... picture one character picking a race with bonuses for one of the set of skills (Lizardfolk) while the other maxes out on the other skills needed (pick something else...) I meant to overcome the attack/defend skill packages of their opponents.. Not to get skill packages.. or check each party member individually.. if just one overcomes it.. the party overcomes it.. if not they are effected by it
hogarth 09-27-07, 06:42 PM	Okay - I need a clarification about Parties vs Attack/Defend packages. According to the rules - Attack/Defend packages only apply to 1v1 fights. Parties are treated as if they were an interleague group. Does that mean that they cannot be affected by Attack/Defend packages? By extension - they can't use Attack/Defend packages themselves? As far as I know, multiplayer battles don't use Attack/Defend packages and that includes team battles.
lonewolf 09-27-07, 07:10 PM	While building our team we assumed that we cannot use nor be affected by skill packages since they count as interleague fights. If thats not true, we might wanna do some changes to the teams skill selection.
TheMagister 09-27-07, 07:46 PM	i need a reminder - when using a Tower shield for total cover - it only grants cover towards the direction the guy holding the shield is facing correct? To clarify: when a character declares that he is taking total cover with a Tower Shield (a standard action), he is required to choose a SIDE of his space. All attacks whose Lines of Effect that pass through that SIDE of his space are negated by that cover. Attacks whose Lines of Effect are only partially blocked by that SIDE of the character's space are resolved as if that character had COVER from that attack (in addition to the AC bonus normally provided by the shield). Attacks whose Lines of Effect do not pass through that SIDE of the character's space are not affected by the tower shield at all (no AC, no Cover, no nuthin'). That, in a nutshell, is how it works. Kinda cumbersome.
Vathelokai 09-28-07, 12:26 AM	So I've been putting some thought into the rebuilds of my characters. Not much time to computer these days, but time enough to think; but I digress. Erithmu's comment about trying to do too much with one character hit the nail on the head, I think. So I broke things up into two builds. Feedback appreciated. middle age phrenic wild elf sorcerer18 str 10 dex 18 con 12 int 10 wis 12 chr 23 Feats: weapon finesse, craft wondrous, metamagic empower, metamagic energy substitution (sonic), craft staff, ?, ? {asking in the courtroom if you can take the empower/quicken spell like ability feat to effect a phrenic psi-like ability} Skills: max concentration, moderate spellcraft, other scattered skills Equipment: cloak of cha, gloves of dex, brooch of shield, amulet nat armor, ring of prot, bracers of armor, winged boots, custom staffs, wands that are touch or ranged touch (probably with metamagic alterations) Elan cleric5/wiz5/thurge10 unearthed arcana: planar turning cleric ('turns' outsiders instead of undead) domains: artifice and glory str 10 dex 10 con 10 int 18 wis 16 cha 10 Feats: improved counterspell, craft wondrous, craft wand, craft arms/armor, power penetration, craft constrict, leadership, metamagic quicken Skills: max concentration, spellcraft, and 1 craft skill; 6 k:arcana and 6 K:religion, 1 each every skill and craft Equipment: heavy armor (during cleric phase), cloak of cha, combined headband of int and wis, gloves dex, ring prot, blessed book, lots of pearls of power.
Erithmu 09-28-07, 12:52 AM	A note on Beta: Turning is based on Cleric HD, not Cleric CL ... so your planar turning is going to be at Level 5 for most of beta's career. IE: MT doesn't grant improved turning ability. My other suggestion would be to finish the build focused on one class or the other. Ie Clr3/wiz3/MT10/+4 of one particular class (wizard suggested) so that you get 9th level spells. Thurm will work either way, or Archmage if you want to invest the feats.
whitebaron 09-28-07, 04:24 AM	I'd rather just focus on the two-man team for now. After I see the 3-man team in action - I might be willing to try another team later on - but I think it would require some good communication among the players. Lonewolf/whitebaron/mucki have the advantage of all knowing each other in real life (assuming I'm remembering correctly) - so they can get together to plan things out. yes, and we did yesterday. and i already got the feel, we need to do even more than that. it's a nice idea to start with, but we'll have a look how it turns out. the FFA is definitely NOT favoring a team. and both our opponents are quite frightening to us as such, without even the chance they beat us first and then go for each other. Okay - I need a clarification about Parties vs Attack/Defend packages. According to the rules - Attack/Defend packages only apply to 1v1 fights. Parties are treated as if they were an interleague group. Does that mean that they cannot be affected by Attack/Defend packages? By extension - they can't use Attack/Defend packages themselves? if you go strict rules as written, it says that parties are interleague fights, and therefore allow no attack/defend packages. especially the trap features could be mad if it is allowed - imagine three trappers in one team, do three saves before the fight even starts...
Vathelokai 09-28-07, 07:29 AM	A note on Beta: Turning is based on Cleric HD, not Cleric CL ... so your planar turning is going to be at Level 5 for most of beta's career. IE: MT doesn't grant improved turning ability. My other suggestion would be to finish the build focused on one class or the other. Ie Clr3/wiz3/MT10/+4 of one particular class (wizard suggested) so that you get 9th level spells. Thurm will work either way, or Archmage if you want to invest the feats. My thought on planar turning was that with 5 lv of cleric and the glory domain, beta could (somewhat) consistantly turn summoned monsters, improved familiars, and lesser planar allies. Definitely wouldn't work against an equal opponent, but with a cloak of charisma it would be a decent shot at reducing allies. Anyone more familiar with turning that me want to chime in?
McJarvis 09-28-07, 08:01 AM	My thought on planar turning was that with 5 lv of cleric and the glory domain, beta could (somewhat) consistantly turn summoned monsters, improved familiars, and lesser planar allies. Definitely wouldn't work against an equal opponent, but with a cloak of charisma it would be a decent shot at reducing allies. Anyone more familiar with turning that me want to chime in? familiars have too many hd, methinks.
Callix 09-28-07, 08:27 AM	My thought on planar turning was that with 5 lv of cleric and the glory domain, beta could (somewhat) consistantly turn summoned monsters, improved familiars, and lesser planar allies. Definitely wouldn't work against an equal opponent, but with a cloak of charisma it would be a decent shot at reducing allies. Anyone more familiar with turning that me want to chime in? On average, you can turn a creature whose HD <= Cleric level + 1/2 Cha modifier (not entirely accurate, but a decent model, quite roll-dependant for a low-level cleric). Turning damage (total HD turned) is 2d6+level+cha, which shouldn't be a problem for most summons etc. The big one is the turning check, and the best way to make that reliable is to take more levels of cleric. If you've got Turn-centric mechanics, keeping the levels relatively pure is a good idea. Cleric/Paladin can get Cha to saves for synergy, and only loses 2 turning levels. Theurges, on the other hand, will get very little utility out of Turn Undead, because their cleric level is too low.
Rauul 09-29-07, 01:11 PM	Whats the Cost of Crafting Mithral Full plate armor.. And the Min Craft skill? Answering my own Question.. Cost: Mithral Full plate 10,650 g Crafted 5325 and takes 11 days (2 weeks of activation) Skill check is 10 + AC bonus = 18-10=8 skill (6 with Mw tools) I just thought of something... Why don't we use a scale on crafting.. the higher your Skill the Faster you craft (similar to money making).. (and when crafting magic Items like Owen is Spell craft could be used to speed it up a Little)
whitebaron 09-29-07, 01:55 PM	Whats the Cost of Crafting Mithral Full plate armor.. And the Min Craft skill? Answering my own Question.. Cost: Mithral Full plate 10,650 g Crafted 5325 and takes 11 days (2 weeks of activation) Skill check is 10 + AC bonus = 18-10=8 skill (6 with Mw tools) I just thought of something... Why don't we use a scale on crafting.. the higher your Skill the Faster you craft (similar to money making).. (and when crafting magic Items like Owen is Spell craft could be used to speed it up a Little) actually, mithral full plate is 10500 since you don't need to pay the masterwork extra - it's within mithril already. about the skills for speeding up work: with craft, i would say so too. but spellcraft? give another benefit for a skill any decent sorcerer/wizard should max? -> nay. comparing crafting in coco to crafting in raw: (10+skill)²/10 = amount of gp you could craft in a week. for crafting 1000 gold in a week as you can do in the coco, you'd have to have a skill of +90.
TelinArtho 09-29-07, 01:56 PM	Close Rauul. Mithril is already masterworked - so you don't add the 150gp there. Should be 10,500gp, 5250gp when crafted. Skill is DC20 because it is a Masterwork item (and because Mithril takes a DC20 check to craft). The base armor is DC18 though.
Rauul 09-29-07, 02:35 PM	Close Rauul. Mithril is already masterworked - so you don't add the 150gp there. Should be 10,500gp, 5250gp when crafted. Skill is DC20 because it is a Masterwork item (and because Mithril takes a DC20 check to craft). The base armor is DC18 though. thanks... But after looking at it.. the -10 speed for +3 armor... is it worth it for Graashnak.. Am debating if it is worth the -10 speed.. or if he should spend the gold to get his armor magical instead.. +3 armor costs 9,000 gp.. may go that way.. or add Manifester power on the armor
whitebaron 09-29-07, 03:10 PM	thanks... But after looking at it.. the -10 speed for +3 armor... is it worth it for Graashnak.. Am debating if it is worth the -10 speed.. or if he should spend the gold to get his armor magical instead.. +3 armor costs 9,000 gp.. may go that way.. or add Manifester power on the armor mithril full plate is only worth it, if you don't need the extra ac that badly. else, go mithril chainshirt +3 (10100, -1 armor, same price, full mobility) , thats something that is really worth the 10k gold.
whitebaron 09-29-07, 06:16 PM	double-posting... i think, the rules of gladius contradict themselves when it comes to allies + interleague. Multiplayer Fights: If you face more than one gladiator, you calculate xp and gold for each opponent gladiator seperately, add the results together, and divide it by the number of allied gladiators you have. In Multiplayer Fights, one of the participants might bring in an ally. The penalty for bringing in an ally always applies only to the one who brought it in. The reward bonus for the ally is always evenly distributed among all opponents of the character with the ally. Example 3: In an interleague battle, we have one ECL 12 character with a level 9 cohort and the Political Career skill package (granting, in this case, a 32% bonus to rewards), one ECL 12 character with a Gray Glutton (CR 7), and one ECL 14 character with a storm giant skeleton (CR 8) and a chimera skeleton (CR 4). The first ECL 12 character has a (9/10*25) 22.5% ally penalty, the second has a (7/10*25) 17.5% ally penalty, and the ECL 14 character has a ((8+4)/12*25) 25% ally penalty. So the total rewards come out to: for the first ECL 12 character, a (25-22.5+32) 34.5% bonus; for the second ECL 12 character, a (25-17.5) 7.5% bonus; and for the ECL 14 character, a ((22.5+17.5)/2 - 25) 5% penalty. it seems clear to me, that one of those two statements is erroneous. the calculation for ECL14 is correct here. actually i think the example is correct, and just the plain rules wording should be only for FFA, not for interleague. looking at the consequences, i got a simple example here. 2 ecl 3 charactes fight against 1 ecl 5 character. (all 25% ally penalty) if you have to share the xp rewards, it will end like this. ecl5: (25+25)/2-25 = 0 ecl3: 25/2-25 = -12.5 which is definitely not fair, since the ecl5 char has a far better ally.
TelinArtho 09-29-07, 08:21 PM	ECL5 character with 3 ECL1 allies (25% penalty) 2 ECL3 characters with 2 ECL1 allies (25% penalty each) ECL5 gets (25+25)/2 -25 = 0 Each ECL3 gets 25 -25 = 0 In other words - your example is wrong. That said - the ECL5 character gets 3 ECL1 allies vs the 2 ECL1 allies of the ECL3 characters. Note - if the ECL5 character instead uses an ECL3 ally - it is equivalent all around since 2 ECL1 = 1 ECL3. At ECL7 vs 2 ECL5s - this would be ECL7 with an ECL3 ally and an ECL2 ally vs 2 ECL5s with an ECL3 each. They would both have the exact same 0% net ally penalty all around, but the lower level characters would have "slightly" stronger allies. If the ECL7 uses an ECL5 ally - then they are equivalent all around.
Vathelokai 09-29-07, 10:55 PM	Polymorph: Knowledge: You must have an (appropriate) total Knowledge score equal to twice the HD of the monster you want to polymorph in.Does this also apply to expendables. Specifically, do you need the knowledge to use a scroll of alter self?
Salrantol 09-29-07, 10:59 PM	Yes. In Enoch's fight results, one fight is labeled as the fight where Enoch learned he didn't know what a troglodyte looked like anymore.
whitebaron 09-30-07, 06:40 AM	In other words - your example is wrong. so. the sharing of profits does not occur for allies in interleague, but just in FFA. thanks for the clarification. this should be made clear somehow in the rules, as they state that XP is shared up in ALL multiplayer fights.
Taureus_Drakken 09-30-07, 10:38 AM	I have a prison post for having above my expendables cap. I PMed the pitlord to drop a tattoo and a potion for the fight. I am assuming that I just get the gold for them...Does it matter that I am ECL 4 now, or not? As in, do I get them "back" now, or do I just move forward with the gold from selling them? ¬Taureus¬
whitebaron 09-30-07, 11:50 AM	I have a prison post for having above my expendables cap. I PMed the pitlord to drop a tattoo and a potion for the fight. I am assuming that I just get the gold for them...Does it matter that I am ECL 4 now, or not? As in, do I get them "back" now, or do I just move forward with the gold from selling them? ¬Taureus¬ you get the gold from selling them. you can only buy new expendables when you're between your 3fc.
Taureus_Drakken 09-30-07, 12:05 PM	@whitebaron: Okay, thanks. I figured as much, but with the change in ECL, I just wanted to make sure. ¬Taureus¬
whitebaron 09-30-07, 12:11 PM	rules question: do the polymorph house rules apply to monsters with alternate form? i figured: no, since many monsters don't even have knowledge skills. but i am just checking before i run the fight...
Taureus_Drakken 09-30-07, 12:20 PM	That's probably one of the few house rules that monsters don't have to adhere to...It doesn't really make sense for a monster to be restricted in that way like a PC would be anyway. Just my two cents, but I agree with you. ¬Taureus¬
whitebaron 09-30-07, 02:01 PM	Does this also apply to expendables. Specifically, do you need the knowledge to use a scroll of alter self? as the monster has to be given on creation of the scroll, i'd say no. you have to have the knowledge when you craft it, since you can't change it, you should not need to have the knowledge. this would be unfair.
Eamane 09-30-07, 02:03 PM	as the monster has to be given on creation of the scroll, i'd say no. you have to have the knowledge when you craft it, since you can't change it, you should not need to have the knowledge. this would be unfair. Eh? No, it would allow spellcasters to circumvent needing knowledge skills to use Polymorph school effects. Which is kind of the point of having that restriction. Plus... really. Knowledge skills. Spellcasters. You should be taking ranks in those anyways!
whitebaron 09-30-07, 02:30 PM	Eh? No, it would allow spellcasters to circumvent needing knowledge skills to use Polymorph school effects. Which is kind of the point of having that restriction. Plus... really. Knowledge skills. Spellcasters. You should be taking ranks in those anyways! i think he's referencing Tweak. or any other bard/rogue mixed build. so not a caster to start with, and not much knowledge skills to chose from (when not going full bard). and about the cirumvention of knowledge skills: as the scroll(of polymorph) is always caster lvl 7, you could never transform into a monster with more than 7hd. combined with the size restriction of coco, you get annoyed really soon in searching for a monster that has to apply both restrictions and is good enough to ploymorph to. and: a caster with caster level 7, would have 12(10 ranks, +2 int) in knowledge skills. you could apply that as well, making it max. at 6 hd.
Taureus_Drakken 09-30-07, 02:32 PM	as the monster has to be given on creation of the scroll, i'd say no. you have to have the knowledge when you craft it, since you can't change it, you should not need to have the knowledge. this would be unfair. I agree with this as well. The crafter has to have the necessary knowledges, not the one who is using the scroll. Scrolls are spell-completion items. You only need to have the spell on your list, and an ability score high enough to use it. Even with the house-rule for polymorph here in the CoCo, you don't need knowledge to use spell-completion items. ¬Taureus¬
Salrantol 09-30-07, 02:40 PM	Except that you do. That's how it's been run since the rule was added. Regardless of how you do it, you have to have the skill ranks to cast a polymorphing spell.
Eamane 09-30-07, 02:56 PM	Except that you do. That's how it's been run since the rule was added. Regardless of how you do it, you have to have the skill ranks to cast a polymorphing spell. Pretty much, that's the way I look at it. On the upside, you can make an argument that Bardic Knowledge (and similar abilities) function in lieu of knowledges here, just as they do with Monster information knowledges; it makes plenty of sense to me.
whitebaron 09-30-07, 03:15 PM	Pretty much, that's the way I look at it. On the upside, you can make an argument that Bardic Knowledge (and similar abilities) function in lieu of knowledges here, just as they do with Monster information knowledges; it makes plenty of sense to me. raw: bardic knowledge is only for history, or local, for persons or locations. where is this stated in coco that it is different? @salrantol: so you have to have double-knowledges? one for the caster, one for the user of a scroll? makes no sense to me, actually... but since i won't make an expendable-char, i can live with that pretty well. since we are already discussing this: does a monster with alternate form need to have the knowledges too? - i need it for the yorick monster fight (he got a phasm as opponent...) --edit: my example why this should not apply for monsters: take the gold dragon. he has absolutely no knowledge skills in anything, but could alternate form to any medium or smaller animal or humanoid.
Eamane 09-30-07, 03:21 PM	raw: bardic knowledge is only for history, or local, for persons or locations. where is this stated in coco that it is different? @salrantol: so you have to have double-knowledges? one for the caster, one for the user of a scroll? makes no sense to me, actually... but since i won't make an expendable-char, i can live with that pretty well. since we are already discussing this: does a monster with alternate form need to have the knowledges too? - i need it for the yorick monster fight (he got a phasm as opponent...) See: Monster Fights (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=11476813&postcount=32). Scroll down to the part about knowledges, or just do a search for 'bardic'. If you had the scroll made for you by someone else, it's assumed they had the knowledges, unless that someone else is specifically stated. (As a note, their knowledges wouldn't be limited to any particular level, as it's possible to have a high level caster make a scroll with a lower caster level) As far as monster goes... It would be nice to have consistent rules governing monsters and PCs, wouldn't it? But in this case, it would be impossible to implement; MM monsters simply weren't designed with our obscure houserules in mind and thus in this specific instance, I'm find with a double-standard; Monsters don't need knowledges to use natural shapeshifting abilities. If it was a kobold wizard on the other hand..
whitebaron 09-30-07, 03:24 PM	ah yes, thnx for the reference. looks like i'll run the fight polymorphed to a stone giant as planned.
Taureus_Drakken 09-30-07, 03:34 PM	Looking back at some of the older matches, there are instances where the caster didn't have the required skill knowledges. *Sorry to pick on Enoch...* His first match, he used a scroll of Alter Self (troglodyte), but didn't have any ranks in Knowledge (local), which would be required for any Humanoid Polymorph-form as per the house rule of CoCo... If you are going to say that it's always been required, please be right... I don't have a problem with there being a requisite for knowledge skills in order to use polymorph-effects. I can see the logic in having that kind of house rule.But reading the house rules section, it doesn't directly mention that expendables require skill knowledges for use... # Polymorph: Polymorph and all spells/powers based on it (Alter Self, Polymorph any Object, Shapechange, Metamorphosis, and Greater Metamorphosis) work differently in the CoCo. * Knowledge: You must have an (appropriate) total Knowledge score equal to twice the HD of the monster you want to polymorph in. * Size Restriction: Polymorph forms must be within one size category just like Alter Self. This applies only to Polymorph, and not related spells/powers. * Size Stacking: When Polymorph or Alternate Form (including Wild Shape) changes your size, it counts as a size change for purposes of stacking with other size-modifying spells and powers. * Share Spells: Polymorph is not shared with your familiar. You can specifically cast polymorph on it though (instead of yourself). * Scrolls/Stones: Just like with potions of resist energy and other spells, expendables with polymorph must have their form specified beforehand. Example: Scroll of Alter Self (Troglodyte). This only applies to expendables; not to memorized spells. I know using a scroll is the same as casting a spell from memory...But clarification is needed with house rules such as this one. ¬Taureus¬
MindWandererB 09-30-07, 03:45 PM	Looking back at some of the older matches, there are instances where the caster didn't have the required skill knowledges. *Sorry to pick on Enoch...* His first match, he used a scroll of Alter Self (troglodyte), but didn't have any ranks in Knowledge (local), which would be required for any Humanoid Polymorph-form as per the house rule of CoCo...Enoch is a very old character... he may have predated the rule. Or it was just a mistake. The rule says, "You must have an (appropriate) total Knowledge score equal to twice the HD of the monster you want to polymorph in[to]." It doesn't specify whether it's from spell, scroll, or other means, so it applies to everything based on the alter self/polymorph chain regardless of activation.
Taureus_Drakken 09-30-07, 05:12 PM	I wasn't trying to argue in the hope of winning. I don't have a problem with the house rule, I just wanted to get some clarification. Not just for my sake, but for everyone who might ask the same question again. I did realize that Enoch is one of the older characters in the arena, and figured it was possible he did predate the rule. That's why I brought up an example I had seen use AS (trog) scrolls. ¬Taureus¬
templer10 10-01-07, 07:03 AM	Anyone at ECL 12 (or 2 ECL 10) planning on activating this wendsday? Longshot just leveld (not edited yet) and is without a cohort for next 2 fights - you are never going to get a better chance to make him lose his first fight....
Salrantol 10-01-07, 07:15 AM	Enoch is a very old character... he may have predated the rule. Or it was just a mistake.From the Training Hall, June 6th of last year...Enoch the Prophet, who far predates the house rules on alter self, would like to make the following changes on that basis....
hogarth 10-01-07, 11:08 AM	What is the cost of a light horse with the Combat Riding trick package? I thought the training cost would be 300 gp (for 6 tricks) or maybe 150 gp (for adding three tricks to the Riding package), but I notice that Zevox's character Kathren Durrol paid only 50 gp for training her heavy horse.
TelinArtho 10-01-07, 12:31 PM	What is the cost of a light horse with the Combat Riding trick package? I thought the training cost would be 300 gp (for 6 tricks) or maybe 150 gp (for adding three tricks to the Riding package), but I notice that Zevox's character Kathren Durrol paid only 50 gp for training her heavy horse. When the changes for allies was added - it was suggested that adding Combat Riding to a light horse should only cost 50gp. I don't know that it was necessarily "approved" that way - but I wouldn't be surprised if this is where the cost you see is coming from. -------------------------- On another note - just looking at the prison roster and it seems a little unwieldy for little benefit. So - in an effort to see things working for maximum efficiency, I have a couple of questions: 1. Does anyone, ever, use the Prison Roster to link up characters and violations? 2. If someone does use that roster, would it be more easy to use if it listed only the ones who are currently in the prison with violations? Right now - the roster requires keeping up-to-date tabs on the Character roster to note additions to the full roster and to keep tabs on characters as they move up through the various leagues. However, it would seem to me - that since most people are not in the prison, and the few that are, are only there for a short amount of time - that keeping a full list is rather superfluous. Let me know - I'm still getting used to my new feet as Prisonlord.
whitebaron 10-01-07, 12:41 PM	i don't think that the roster in the prison is actually used by anyone. people usually either use the links given in the violation, or the roster in the characters thread. what i'd propose is the following: cancel the roster on the first page. have each error report state the POST! of the character that has the violation, and copy the post to the role call for the week, so you can get to char+violation via role call. issue half credits if a violation is given without the proper post-id.
hogarth 10-01-07, 01:01 PM	When the changes for allies was added - it was suggested that adding Combat Riding to a light horse should only cost 50gp. I don't know that it was necessarily "approved" that way - but I wouldn't be surprised if this is where the cost you see is coming from. Let me rephrase the question, then: How much do you think I need to pay to teach the Combat Riding package to a light horse? -------------------------- By the way, I agree that there's no point listing innocent gladiators in the prison roster.
Rauul 10-01-07, 01:06 PM	When the changes for allies was added - it was suggested that adding Combat Riding to a light horse should only cost 50gp. I don't know that it was necessarily "approved" that way - but I wouldn't be surprised if this is where the cost you see is coming from. -------------------------- On another note - just looking at the prison roster and it seems a little unwieldy for little benefit. So - in an effort to see things working for maximum efficiency, I have a couple of questions: 1. Does anyone, ever, use the Prison Roster to link up characters and violations? 2. If someone does use that roster, would it be more easy to use if it listed only the ones who are currently in the prison with violations? Right now - the roster requires keeping up-to-date tabs on the Character roster to note additions to the full roster and to keep tabs on characters as they move up through the various leagues. However, it would seem to me - that since most people are not in the prison, and the few that are, are only there for a short amount of time - that keeping a full list is rather superfluous. Let me know - I'm still getting used to my new feet as Prisonlord. Dropping the roster to only people in prison would be practical.. Also as a Side note... I understand it's not anyone responsibility to send a PM to those in Violation.. but i know when i started here my first character went red 2 and i didn't even know what the prison was.. till Mitza pointed it out to me.. So a Simple PM when posting would be polite...
templer10 10-01-07, 02:20 PM	Let me rephrase the question, then: How much do you think I need to pay to teach the Combat Riding package to a light horse? -------------------------- By the way, I agree that there's no point listing innocent gladiators in the prison roster. if i remmber correctly 50 GP was agreed as a compormise so it would cost 2 much for ECL 3 chars wanting a mount by at least 2 elders i remmber (zevox and sauro) if my memory serves me.
MindWandererB 10-01-07, 03:49 PM	On another note - just looking at the prison roster and it seems a little unwieldy for little benefit. So - in an effort to see things working for maximum efficiency, I have a couple of questions: 1. Does anyone, ever, use the Prison Roster to link up characters and violations? 2. If someone does use that roster, would it be more easy to use if it listed only the ones who are currently in the prison with violations? Right now - the roster requires keeping up-to-date tabs on the Character roster to note additions to the full roster and to keep tabs on characters as they move up through the various leagues. However, it would seem to me - that since most people are not in the prison, and the few that are, are only there for a short amount of time - that keeping a full list is rather superfluous. Let me know - I'm still getting used to my new feet as Prisonlord.I use it occasionally, but not very often at all. It's helpful when a character has been in prison for a very long time, or was imprisoned, retired, then un-retired. Prison posts can be hard to find under those circumstances. I think a roster of all character who were never released from prison (including retired ones) would be the most helpful. NiQil did also use the Prison roster as a way to keep track of when PCs were inactive for a very long time (several months), at which point he'd tell me to take them off the roster. That was a handy service for me, although I don't know exactly how he tracked it. I think it was kind of ad-hoc.
TelinArtho 10-01-07, 03:59 PM	Well - that was part of the intent. I know some people have come and gone and it would be very helpful to have old prison posts still linked to the character - should the player ever come back. I think it was ad-hoc - since I don't have anything from him indicating a tracker (and he sent all of his resources to work with). I can certainly do this without the Full prison roster - so no biggie there. When I do my update tomorrow - expect a much shorter Prison Roster. I will, from this point, keep a list of all active violations - even on characters who are currently not active - so that they are easily referenced. If I get ambitious, I might go through the full prison and get ones that haven't been closed out now - but that will probably be more effort than it is worth.
Eluria 10-01-07, 08:33 PM	Random build idea/concept/question: Has anyone explored the idea of using the Metamorphic Transfer feat with other shape-change abilities? METAMORPHIC TRANSFER [PSIONIC] You can gain a supernatural ability of a metamorphed form. Prerequisite: Wis 13, manifester level 5th. Benefit: Each time you change your form, such as through the metamorphosis power, you gain one of the new form’s supernatural abilities, if it has any. You gain only three uses of the metamorphic ability per day, even if the creature into which you metamorph has a higher limit on uses (You are still subject to other restrictions on the use of the ability.) The save DC to resist a supernatural ability gained through Metamorphic Transfer (if it is an attack) is 10 + your Cha modifier + 1/2 your Hit Dice. No matter how many times you manifest the metamorphosis power on a given day, you can gain only a total of three supernatural ability transfers per day. Normal: You cannot use the supernatural abilities of creatures whose form you assume. Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Each time, you can gain one additional supernatural ability. I'm thinking, Elan Psion5 with bracers/item of Alter self, change into a Choker at the start of each fight, and get 2 standard actions per round? Quickness (Su): Although not particularly dexterous, a choker is supernaturally quick. It can take an extra standard action or move action during its turn each round. Or maybe a Wizard3/Psion3/Cerebromancer3+, getting that trick at ECL9 instead, but without an item. Spell + Power per round? Sweet. Truestrike + Offensive power at once? awesomeness. Infinite possibilities? Seems like it. Any reason this doesn't work?
MindWandererB 10-01-07, 09:13 PM	It works, and it's been done. That exact combo, in fact. I can't recall who did it, though--I thought it was Reginald, but I seem to be wrong.
SauroGrenom 10-01-07, 09:22 PM	It works, and it's been done. That exact combo, in fact. I can't recall who did it, though--I thought it was Reginald, but I seem to be wrong. This whole concept is Kilp. I have some problems with it, in that there are a few gray areas. Basically there are some things that are poorly understood. For example you only get 3 metamorphic transfers/day and only 3 uses/day of any ability. The often used thing was to alter self into a choker, and get an extra standard action... The problems are the following questions: Do you get an extra standard action in the round where you cast the spell? Or does it just kick in on the next round? Does it take an "action" to activate a supernatural ability (generally it takes a standard action to use a supernatural ability)? You need to keep track of the uses of the extra standard action, since you can only get 3 bonus standard actions/day. This applies to other abilities. In any case no matter what the supernatural ability, you only get to use it 3/day. No matter how many times you manifest the power or cast the spell, you only get 3 metamorphic transfers, and any single ability can only be used 3/day... That's often overlooked.
hogarth 10-01-07, 10:12 PM	This whole concept is Kilp. I have some problems with it, in that there are a few gray areas. Basically there are some things that are poorly understood. For example you only get 3 metamorphic transfers/day and only 3 uses/day of any ability. The often used thing was to alter self into a choker, and get an extra standard action... The problems are the following questions: Do you get an extra standard action in the round where you cast the spell? Or does it just kick in on the next round? Does it take an "action" to activate a supernatural ability (generally it takes a standard action to use a supernatural ability)? You need to keep track of the uses of the extra standard action, since you can only get 3 bonus standard actions/day. That's probably the interpretation that I would take, but when I asked about it I was specifically told that "one use" of a continuous ability would last for the entire duration of the shapeshifting effect. You can always bring it up in the Courtroom thread, of course. I'll even back you up!
Vathelokai 10-01-07, 11:15 PM	i think he's referencing Tweak. or any other bard/rogue mixed build.New sorcerer build I'm putting together, actually. They only get know:arcana. since we are already discussing this: does a monster with alternate form need to have the knowledges too? - i need it for the yorick monster fight (he got a phasm as opponent...) I'd say that alternate form doesn't need the knowledges. 1. Does anyone, ever, use the Prison Roster to link up characters and violations? 2. If someone does use that roster, would it be more easy to use if it listed only the ones who are currently in the prison with violations? I use it every now and then, but I wouldn't miss it. A roster of only the pending violations makes the most sense. This whole concept is Kilp. I have some problems with it, in that there are a few gray areas. Basically there are some things that are poorly understood. The problems are the following questions: Do you get an extra standard action in the round where you cast the spell? Or does it just kick in on the next round? Does it take an "action" to activate a supernatural ability (generally it takes a standard action to use a supernatural ability)? There are lots of gray areas to that one. I've noticed that with Psibeast. I think this one might need a courtroom/council discussion.
Prisonlords 10-02-07, 10:54 AM	I've updated the roster as I mentioned I would. Since lonewolf did this - I think it is a good idea: If you retire a character, you should send a PM to both Pitlords and to Prisonlords (the latter only if the character has active violations). @Rauul - I still PM the characters that I narc for when I get the chance - but that's entirely up to the narc. For me - I tend to do it only on the first time someone gets a violation. It has been said before - and I'll say it again here: Making sure your character sheet is correct and accurate is up to you. If you have outstanding violations - it is up to you to correct them. If you are not paying attention to the prison - how can you know your sheet is accurate?
Macbrea 10-02-07, 11:03 AM	Anyone see any glaring errors on Lord Matsuni?
TelinArtho 10-02-07, 11:07 AM	Will save doesn't include the Wis modifier. Using a skill package with mostly strength-skills with a +0 str modifier... (just joking of course). Oh - and you forgot to buy equip :P
Macbrea 10-02-07, 11:09 AM	Equipment is optional. The wisdom mod to saves is nessessary.. :P And the package was just an after effect of my not having anything besides concentration to have to spend points on.
TheMagister 10-02-07, 11:15 AM	Hey, Mac -- how's Mitza doing? She feelin' alright?
Macbrea 10-02-07, 11:46 AM	Hey, Mac -- how's Mitza doing? She feelin' alright? She is finally done with Chemo. Though, she caught the stupid plague that has been going around my office. Otherwise, she is back to hunting for a job.
Macbrea 10-02-07, 02:08 PM	Odd question: If Relanex gains the exp to level before the end of his 3 fight cycle. And he wishes to take a +4 LA template. Can he choose instead to apply that experience to reduce the credit cost of the template? This is assuming I pay the credit cost to skip doing the quest to make a magic item.
hogarth 10-02-07, 02:21 PM	Odd question: If Relanex gains the exp to level before the end of his 3 fight cycle. And he wishes to take a +4 LA template. Can he choose instead to apply that experience to reduce the credit cost of the template? This is assuming I pay the credit cost to skip doing the quest to make a magic item. I don't believe you can delay leveling up. Why didn't you do the quest to add the template at the beginning of the cycle if you wanted to do it at your current level?
templer10 10-02-07, 02:48 PM	Odd question: If Relanex gains the exp to level before the end of his 3 fight cycle. And he wishes to take a +4 LA template. Can he choose instead to apply that experience to reduce the credit cost of the template? This is assuming I pay the credit cost to skip doing the quest to make a magic item. Lich? really? that's a pretty bad templte for +4 LA if you ask me...
TelinArtho 10-02-07, 02:58 PM	Lich? really? that's a pretty bad templte for +4 LA if you ask me... Well templates are situational - but I don't think the lich one is that bad. DR15/magic and bludgeoning is a powerful one and the HP increase from D4s to D12s is pretty big (assuming the character didn't have a big Con bonus to begin with). The Fear Aura won't be too useful (except against allies most likely - and even there not often), but the paralyzing touch is nasty. Add to that the undead immunities, cold and electricity immunity and it is pretty nice for most caster types.
Macbrea 10-02-07, 03:18 PM	Well, I am not worried about the leveling. I was curious if I could save the 5 credits. :P Lich is 20 credits + 3 credits if you want to skip the quest to craft a phylactery. It requires you be an 11th level caster, cast spells and have craft wonderous object. Which Relanex qualifies for. The template adds a bunch of immunitiies that people forget about. It's not a horrid template and is fitting for the character concept. Anyways, the quest was if at the end of the third fight of the cycle I should level. Can I instead pay the 18 credit cost to goto Wizard 5/Red Wizard 4/Lich 4 instead of the 23 credit cost to goto Wizard 5/Red Wizard 4/Loremaster 1/Lich 4?
hogarth 10-02-07, 03:33 PM	Well, I am not worried about the leveling. I was curious if I could save the 5 credits. :P Let me know if you find a loophole around paying credits to get a template -- I was thinking of adding the ghost template to Kilpquabjeg at one point. Not because the ghost template is so great, but frozen characters kick a$$ (you can blow every penny you have, every single cycle!). :D
Macbrea 10-02-07, 03:49 PM	Well, that wouldn't leave Relanex frozen and in theory. The quest would give him 4 levels worth of exp for completing. That is the way we work it here. Example: if I spent the 23 credits now I would gain 36,376xp suddenly and am level 13. If allowed to spend the 18 as I am about to level I would only gain 33,000 xp and am level 13. If I must wait and spend 23 credits after I level: I gain 46,000xp and am level 14. The jump to level 14 obviously puts me closer to frozen without an ability to play the character. I would like to be able to actually play the character.
whitebaron 10-02-07, 06:00 PM	since i was totally out of luck with dice this week (with the exception of one made save in the FFA), i'm going to throw Verren in for next week and set my hope in the dice and pairings gods to improve his perfect 0-3. ;) btw: congrats to whomever draws him. i think he's a failure like that. should have either started ecl4 with another psion level or full psion/full wizard.
Callix 10-03-07, 02:11 AM	Ralein and Rennae both ended up with 2-4 records through ECL 3, and seem to have improved since. Petyr, on the other hand, will probably head downhill as his opponents' HP grows faster than his damage, especially in ECLs 6-8. Don't give up because of a few bad dice rolls! Just discussing my experience, but Ralein in particular was frustrating, because I knew I was making a difficult class, and the build won't really come together before 6th level, so anything he gets until then is a bonus. Once he gets Free Draw, Shape Mind Blade and Sidestep Charge, Ralein is set to become a thrower. That's why he doesn't have Psychic Weapon: he doesn't want to overcommit to melee.
Rauul 10-03-07, 03:15 AM	since i was totally out of luck with dice this week (with the exception of one made save in the FFA), i'm going to throw Verren in for next week and set my hope in the dice and pairings gods to improve his perfect 0-3. ;) btw: congrats to whomever draws him. i think he's a failure like that. should have either started ecl4 with another psion level or full psion/full wizard. Bah... you should of seen my first Character... Rauul.. Cleric of Vecna (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=10845944&postcount=1011).. think he lost all but 2 fight...
templer10 10-03-07, 06:50 AM	I think my very first Char here was a psion who tried to do something with Astral constructs - i of course completly ignored the fact that they are near useless at ECL 3.... let me tell you - that guy didnt last long.....
Callix 10-03-07, 07:52 AM	I think my very first Char here was a psion who tried to do something with Astral constructs - i of course completly ignored the fact that they are near useless at ECL 3.... let me tell you - that guy didnt last long..... Now you tell me. After Rennae's built and leveled. :rolleyes: Nah, Rennae's doing OK, mainly because AC's juist one of her powers, not her entire tactical options. That and crazy luck in a couple of fights.
TelinArtho 10-03-07, 11:24 AM	Looks like my rebuild of Aquin is in for a rough first week... Two others are active at ECL9 - a full druid and a full wizard... and me without any spell resistance... Crap I just realized I didn't rework some of his equipment... maybe he should wait another week after all...
Kyace 10-03-07, 05:32 PM	A wise person suggested that I ask this question here, so here goes: "Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Firearms)" seems to treat renaissance firearms as a single weapon, which was how the table heading on pg. 145 of the DMG listed it. The line in the rules: "The Rapid Reload feat can be used for firearms (a reload time of 1 standard action is reduced to 1 swift action)..." doesn't say whether or not Rapid Reload must take taken twice if to be used with the musket and the pistol. Is Rapid Reload (Firearms) a legal choice for a feat or need I specify one of the two firearms in the feat? Or have I completely misunderstood something?
MindWandererB 10-03-07, 05:57 PM	I don't own the 3.5 DMG, but unless it specifically mentions the feat Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Firearms), then you need it independently for each weapon. If you don't... then it's a bizarre exception, but I'd still say you need to choose one specific weapon for Rapid Reload.
hogarth 10-03-07, 07:26 PM	I don't own the 3.5 DMG, but unless it specifically mentions the feat Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Firearms), then you need it independently for each weapon. It specifically says EWP (firearms) gives you proficiency with all firearms.
MindWandererB 10-03-07, 08:13 PM	It specifically says EWP (firearms) gives you proficiency with all firearms. All right, then. But I'm still inclined toward needing to take Rapid Reload (pistol) seperate from Rapid Reload (rifle)
Callix 10-04-07, 07:02 AM	Inspired by the Metamorphic Transfer debate going on int the council, I had a look at good forms for Petyr when he finally gets to 9th level and Metamorphosis. Long-term planning, I know, but it could be an ace up his sleeve. I was looking at an Elf Were-Dire Bat in hybrid form for some good Dex. I have a couple of questions: 1. Can you apply templates (such as lycanthropy) to Metamorphosis forms? 2. Does this affect the Knowledge prereqs? 3. Failing the werebat, I was thinking a Medium Air Elemental for fly speeds and Dex. Can they use weapons? I'd be willing to accept dropping it (so Metamorph doesn't absorb it) then picking it up again, but can an Air Elemantal hold anything? As a side point, if it can't, how can it be involved in grapples? They have a listed Grapple mod, so... Thanks in advance :)
lonewolf 10-04-07, 07:19 AM	1: No. 3: You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form, or any other type except construct, elemental, outsider, and undead. => no air elemental with metamorphosis, unless you already have the elemental type.
Callix 10-04-07, 07:31 AM	1: No. 3: => no air elemental with metamorphosis, unless you already have the elemental type. Whoops. Oh well, I'll keep looking. Not like I'm in a hurry. Thanks, Lonewolf.
whitebaron 10-04-07, 10:13 AM	how exactly does lighting work? the spell "light" says: it radiates bright illumination up to 20ft, dim 20 ft further. low-light vision: you can see twice as far as a human in xxx illumination... so, a character with low-light vision and light, sees [ ]40 ft as there is no more light outside of the lightsource [ ]60 ft as one part is doubled [ ]80 ft as the total is doubled what about spotting lights. i am 250 ft away from a light source, unobstructed. (so 210 ft from the dim illumination). what is my check to see it? or do i auto-spot this lightsource?
TelinArtho 10-04-07, 10:18 AM	Characters with low-light vision (elves, gnomes, and half-elves) can see objects twice as far away as the given radius. Double the effective radius of bright light and of shadowy illumination for such characters. So - 40ft of bright, 40ft of Dim. For the latter question - you can see the light without an issue (and anything within the bright light clearly, 20% miss chance for the ones in the dim light).
Rauul 10-04-07, 07:16 PM	MINIQUEST LORD WANTED Gortek is exactly 25 xp from level.. So is Searching for an Evil outsider to kill there has got to be a Denth outsider running around somewhere for him to rage on and destroy!!
Kyace 10-04-07, 08:24 PM	Hmm, seems to leave 3ish builds to make the grey elf with a gun idea work. A) Mix a level of fighter with two of bard: (pro: HP, skills, plenty of feats, end up with some good saves; con: multiclassing penalty if I don't keep taking fighter levels, three way MAD between Int, Dex and Cha) B) Mix a level of fighter with two of wizard: (pro: only two abilities you need to worry about both of which grey elf raises, favored class wizard; con: losing caster level of wizard...) C) Go straight wizard (or bard). (pro: You can get the EWP(firearms) at lvl 3 and you'd have 2nd-level spells. con: you lose the rapid reload and at this point it raises the question why bother with the firearms: you're a wizard. Get a crossbow, save a feat and put on some robes, you ninny.) So wise tavern patrons I ask thee, would a gun toting bard/fighter mix be able to fight on an even keel at ECL 3 and hopefully beyond? Or would I be wasting two feats and 10 ranks on a glorified crossbow?
Erithmu 10-04-07, 08:35 PM	sometimes you build for power ... this would be a wizard with a crossbow ... Sometimes ... just some times you build for style ... so that when you crit that wizard with your rifle ... you can smile an grin. And if your a FPS gamer simply post 'HEADSHOT!'
Vathelokai 10-04-07, 08:38 PM	Bad news: my wife hurt her back at work, so I'm going to be very busy at home for a while. She's expecting a month of physical therapy. So, that means that I won't have time to run a campaign for a while. Also means a delay on the newspaper (unless I start getting more submissions, hint, hint). I'll still be able to run a fight on the weekends, and keep up on the council, but not much else.
Vathelokai 10-04-07, 08:42 PM	Hmm, seems to leave 3ish builds to make the grey elf with a gun idea work. A) Mix a level of fighter with two of bard: (pro: HP, skills, plenty of feats, end up with some good saves; con: multiclassing penalty if I don't keep taking fighter levels, three way MAD between Int, Dex and Cha) B) Mix a level of fighter with two of wizard: (pro: only two abilities you need to worry about both of which grey elf raises, favored class wizard; con: losing caster level of wizard...) C) Go straight wizard (or bard). (pro: You can get the EWP(firearms) at lvl 3 and you'd have 2nd-level spells. con: you lose the rapid reload and at this point it raises the question why bother with the firearms: you're a wizard. Get a crossbow, save a feat and put on some robes, you ninny.) So wise tavern patrons I ask thee, would a gun toting bard/fighter mix be able to fight on an even keel at ECL 3 and hopefully beyond? Or would I be wasting two feats and 10 ranks on a glorified crossbow? My two ideas... Powerbuild - 1 lv of cleric (magic and something), 2 psiwar, then go straight fighter from there. Gives you access to every expendable, some decent 1st lv spells/powers (sancuary and empty mind), tons of feats, and you only need high dex and wis. Funbuild- fighter2/wiz5/eldritchknight3/arcane 'archer' 10. Wait... don't have time to look, but you need to use a bow for arcane archer, don't you . Shucks. E.knight could work though.
Kyace 10-04-07, 08:55 PM	Sorry to hear that about your wife, Vathelokai. Hope she recovers well and swiftly. Following a level of fighter with 5 of wizard then going eldritch knight seems a natural way to finish mixing those two classes. About the cleric idea, it would only work if I also took the knowledge domain, and it'd still have the problem of a pure bard build (I'd need to still be able to buy at least 5 ranks of craft (firearms) and knowledge (engineering) and pass a DC 20 of both by taking 10. Thus, I'd need at least an int score of 18 to do so at ECL 3. Since Zen Archery isn't core, I'd have three primary abilities scores.
Sjiggie 10-04-07, 09:03 PM	An Int of 14 is enough for the craft requirement assume 6 ranks +2 Int +2 Masterwork tool =10. Knowledge would be more of a problem but you can take skill focus knowledge (engineering) and 5 ranks with a +2 int mod but it will cost you another feat. But from the psiwar and fighter levels you will get alot of bonus feats so it can be a viable build. Something like Cleric 1 (magic and knowledge domain) psywar 2 Take skill focus knowledge engineering at lvl 1 and for your 2nd psywar bonus feat and regular 3rd level feat you can take exotic wpn proficiency firearms and rapid reload or start as Cleric 2 and then psywar 2 to take psionic meditation as your 2nd psiwar bonus feat to regain your focus as a move action instead of a full round.
Kyace 10-05-07, 12:39 AM	Whelp, hows this (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13975115&postcount=1239) look? Everything look legal? The last feat, Rapid Reload (Firearms), will likely be changed for Rapid Reload (Musket) for legality reasons, but no one really seems sure yet. Not many firearm builds enter the coliseum?
Eamane 10-05-07, 01:21 AM	Whelp, hows this (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13975115&postcount=1239) look? Everything look legal? The last feat, Rapid Reload (Firearms), will likely be changed for Rapid Reload (Musket) for legality reasons, but no one really seems sure yet. Not many firearm builds enter the coliseum? Yours would be the third firearms build; the other two are at ECL 3 (3-0) and ECL 4 (5-1 record, iirc) Everything looks kosher to me, but I highly suggest carrying more than 10 bullets at a time. 30 would be enough to ensure sufficient ammunition in any given combat. EDIT: Ah, I see that the other sets of bullets are just in a sack... err.. you can just carry them normally. Given that pockets/etc are free, it's assumed that you always have the appropriate carrying gear for as much weight as you can carry. Also, your strength mod is +0, not -1 (seems to only be in the attributes block) One last thing: You don't have to specify what you are holding in your hands before battle, that can be adjusted in your tactics for each battle. Given that it's not a balance issue, I think that Foo: Firearms feats should act uniformly when possible. I.E: Pistols and musket are always bundled together, or they are never bundled together. For a similar example, see how Short Bow & Composite Short Bow are bundled together, same with Long Bow & Composite Longbow. Very rarely a class will have proficiency with only the non-composite version, but otherwise feats for them overlap with the other version.
Vathelokai 10-05-07, 01:29 AM	Whelp, hows this (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13975115&postcount=1239) look? Everything look legal? The last feat, Rapid Reload (Firearms), will likely be changed for Rapid Reload (Musket) for legality reasons, but no one really seems sure yet. Not many firearm builds enter the coliseum? str mod is listed as -1 when it should be 0 Missing some [ /color] tags... That will save's gonna hurt. I'd trade daze for mend; daze doesn't get much action in solo fights and mend lets you fix something that has been sundered. You can always use all cantrips in a fight (they aren't regulated like 'level' spells). jump should be +8 move silent should be +8 tumble should be +11, and have 5 ranks (fighter cross-class) Same problem with know:engineering (fighter CC), which is a bigger problem. I didn't count the skill points up, but the fighter ones seem off. You need 5 ranks in perform to make money with it as a free action. Only need one more. your armor check penalty from the chain shirt isn't included in the skills. You remembered to get a spell component pouch! Artisan tools need to be specified to their specific craft. Looking pretty good. I like the far shot with the build. You have a feat progression in mind? Since you can use better weapons and don't have weapon finess, why take rapier and dagger? I suggest grabbing a buckler. Doesn't interfere with ranged attacks. Masterwork/darkwood/mithral versions don't have any penalties at all. A bit tired to be more helpful than that. Might want to skim over the ECL3 league to see who you might fight.
Vathelokai 10-05-07, 01:35 AM	Given that it's not a balance issue, I think that Foo: Firearms feats should act uniformly when possible. I.E: Pistols and musket are always bundled together, or they are never bundled together. For a similar example, see how Short Bow & Composite Short Bow are bundled together, same with Long Bow & Composite Longbow. Very rarely a class will have proficiency with only the non-composite version, but otherwise feats for them overlap with the other version. The thing is that the rapid reload feat is worded differently than that... Choose a type of crossbow (hand, light, or heavy).If you have to pick one type of xbow (even though they are almost identical except for size), what makes firearms different? And in the instance of bow vs comp.bow, I looked into that with Zodiac, since he gets a bonus martial weapon proficiency (basically). The way that feat is worded, you only get to pick one version of one type of bow.
Eamane 10-05-07, 02:02 AM	The thing is that the rapid reload feat is worded differently than that... If you have to pick one type of xbow (even though they are almost identical except for size), what makes firearms different? And in the instance of bow vs comp.bow, I looked into that with Zodiac, since he gets a bonus martial weapon proficiency (basically). The way that feat is worded, you only get to pick one version of one type of bow. Yeah, I know rapid reload is worded differently; because crossbows are not ever bundled like bows are. But pistol and musket seem bundled like bows more than completely separate like crossbows to me. Martial Weapon Proficiency does not work that way; because the wording of the feat(s) isn't the thing that bundles longbow and comp. longbow; it's the nature of the weapons. If you take Martial Weapon (Longbow) you get C. Longbow as well, because the text for C. Longbow says... For purposes of weapon proficiency and similar feats, a composite longbow is treated as if it were a longbow. Pretty clear cut. On the other hand, muskets and pistols don't have such a clear cut quote for them, but rather circumstantial evidence that they act this way; that they are bundled together under one weapon for weapon proficiency purposes. Which means, imho anyways, that it should be extended to 'similar feats' much like the longbow/shortbow. EDIT: Speaking of Zodiac... he looks to be a pain to fight, I'm doing Shugho's tactics right now. Having one hold person left over from the last fight would really help too -_-.
Kyace 10-05-07, 02:29 AM	I think the weapon entry overrides the feat wording here: For purposes of weapon proficiency and similar feats, a composite shortbow is treated as if it were a shortbow. From http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#shortbowComposite I tried to fix the errors you pointed out; the ACP of mithral chain shirts is 0. Couldn't find the color tags you spoke of, could you tell me which sections I didn't close them in? The darkwood buckler is a clever idea. I'll seriously consider it. No real feat tree in mind, likely look over the psionics stuff before Wednesday to see what they have. Seeing a few builds with a +2d6 to ranged damage due to a psionic shot feat, that might be a good place to look into. I might put the rapier at home for now, I was intending to get Weapon Finesse eventually, but its basically dead weight now: if he gets into a melee, he is basically toast anyway. I had enough skill points from the two levels of fighter + the +4 int bonus to increase tumble and know(engin.) both by 2 ranks despite them being cross class, did I use a wrong notation? You remembered to get a spell component pouch! Thats atypical?
Rauul 10-05-07, 04:25 AM	Thats atypical? if i had a dime for every mage that has forgotten his spell component pouch... i would be rich.. Including my own bard... who i just happened to check and i seem to not have one... after 3 levels... noone noticed this... :rofl: :banghead:
Sjiggie 10-05-07, 06:24 AM	I had enough skill points from the two levels of fighter + the +4 int bonus to increase tumble and know(engin.) both by 2 ranks despite them being cross class, did I use a wrong notation? You should list the skillpoints spend for each class not the ranks gained with that class. Also the colortags are missing after Armor Class (touch): and Speed (land): For the rest looks like a solid build
Ackermanus 10-05-07, 07:22 AM	Can you ready an action to charge? Usually, you can only charge as a standard action if you are limited to a standard action that round, and then you can only move up to your speed, but since when the readied action occurs, your iniciative changes as if the time when you acted was your turn, I am not sure about this. If anyone could answer, thanks.
Callix 10-05-07, 07:28 AM	You can only ready to charge if you are restricted to one standard action per round. Otherwise, charging is a full-round action, which cannot be readied. For balance reasons, we can't do things like that. As a simple point, you get a free turn of any direction in the middle of a charge, which makes Psionic Charge, already a bad feat, completely redundant. There is one non-core way to ready a charge: the Cometary Collision feat. This specifically says you may ready an action to charge, and so is giving you that option as an added bonus. Of course, that feat can't be used in CoCo. If there's a ruling I've missed, feel free to correct me, anyone. You've most of you been here longer than me.
Turanson 10-05-07, 08:01 AM	Hello everybody I have been reading the Core COliseum for some time now, and now I have finaly made my first attempt at a Character. I'm not sure that I got it all right and would like to have one of you gyues to look him over an tell me, first if I have made an error and second, if you have some sugestions for inprovments. Hope you can help:) "Mineau Guwango"
Macbrea 10-05-07, 08:13 AM	You by the way can trim the () from around alot of that stuff. ECL 3: Ready for Oct 10th [Fight (1)] or Mineau Guwango Gender and Race: (male) Gray Elf Size and Type: Medium, Humanoid (elf) Height and Weight: 5'2, 107 lbs Age: Age 117 Alignment: neutral good ECL: 3 Wizard 3 Experience: 3200/6000 Attributes STR 10 (+0) [+4 pts] [12 Base, -2 Racial] DEX 14 (+2) [+6 pts] [14 Base] CON 12 (+1) [+4 pts] [12 Base] INT 20 (+5) [+16 pts] [18 Base, +2 Racial] WIS 12 (+1) [+4 pts] [12 Base] CHA 10 (+0) [+2 pts] [10 Base] Miscellaneous Statistics Hit Points: 12 [3 HD] [4 (Wizard) + (2.5 (Wizard) x 2) + (3 HD x 1 Con)] Armor Class (Normal): 13 [10 Base, 2 Dex, 1 Ring of protection +1] Armor Class (Touch): 13 [10 Base, 2 Dex, 1 Ring of protection +1] Armor Class (Flat-Footed): 11 [10 Base, 1 Ring of protection +1] Initiative: +2 [2 Dex] Base Attack Bonus: +1 [+1 (Wizard 3)] Grapple: +1 [1 BAB] Speed (Land): 30 ft [30 Base] Weight Carried: 19.3 lbs, Light encumbrance [0-33 lb (Light), 34-66 (Medium), 67-100 (Heavy)] Saves Fortitude: +2 [1 Con, 1 (Wizard 3),] Reflex: +3 [2 Dex, 1 (Wizard 3),] Will: +4 [1 Wis, 3 (Wizard 3),] Melee Attacks dagger, +1 melee, 1d4, (19-20/x2), Piercing or slashing [1 BAB] Ranged Attacks Crossbow light, +3 ranged, 1d8, (19-20/x2), Range 80 ft, Piercing [2 Dex, 1 BAB] Arcane Spells Readied Cantrips [DC 15] Resistance, DazeDC 2, Flare, Ray of frost Level 1 [DC 16] SleepDC +2, Ray of enfeeberment, Shocking Grasp, magic missile Level 2 [DC 17] Scorching ray, Hideous Laughter DC +2 Spell Levels Available Per Fight: 3 (4 Cantrips) [8/3, rounded up] Total Spell Levels: 8 [(4 x 1), (2 x 2)] Arcane Spell Failure: 0% Caster Level: 3 Feats Spell Focus (Enchantment)Lvl 1 Greater Spell Focus (Enchantment)Lvl 3 Scribe ScrollClass 1 Skills Total Skill Points: 42 [(Wizard 3)] Languages: Common, Elven, Draconic, Drawen, Abyssal, Orc, Sylvan [2 Racial, 5 Int] Armor Check Penalty: -0 [0 Armor, 0 Shield, etc] Appraise: 8 [5 Int ] (Conditional Modifier: +3 From Raven) Balance: 2 [2 Dex,] Climb: 0 [0 Str] Concentration: 7 [1 Con, 6 Ranks ] Decipher Script: 6 [5 Int, 1 Ranks ] Gather Information: 2 [0 Cha, 2 Ranks ] Heal: 1 [ 1 Wis ] Hide: 2 [2 Dex] Jump: 0 [0 Str, ] Knowledge (Arcana): 11 [5 Int, 6 Ranks ] Knowledge (Architecture & Engineering): 7 [5 Int, 2 Ranks ] Knowledge (Dungeoneering): 7 [5 Int, 2 Ranks ] Knowledge (Geography): 7 [5 Int, 2 Ranks ] Knowledge (History): 11 [5 Int, 6? Ranks ] Knowledge (Local): 7 [5 Int, 2 Ranks ] Knowledge (Nature): 6 [5 Int, 1 Ranks ] Knowledge (Nobility & Royalty): 7 [5 Int, 2 Ranks ] Knowledge (Religion): 6 [5 Int, 1 Ranks ] Knowledge (The Planes): 7 [5 Int, 2 Ranks ] Listen: 3 [1 Wis, (2 (Elf)] Move Silently: 2 [2 Dex, ] Profession (teacher): 2 [1 Wis, 1 Ranks ] Search: 7 [5 Int, (2 (Elf)] Sense Motive: 1 [1 Wis, ] Spellcraft: 13 [5 Int, 6 Ranks, 2 Synergy (Knowledge (Arcana)), etc] Spot: 3 [1 Wis, (2 (Elf),] Survival: 1 [1 Wis] Use Rope: 2 [2 Dex, ] Prefight Actions bring Kylima Equipment Worn and Carried Basic Outfit [0 lbs] [0 gp] Scholars Outfit [6 lbs][5 gp] Spell book [3 lbs][15 gp] Spell component pouch [2 lbs][5 gp] Ring of protection +1 [ - lbs][ 2000 gp] Signet ring [ - lbs][5 gp] 30 Bolts [0.1 lb each = 3 lbs] [0.1 gp each = 3 gp] Dagger (M) [ 1 lbs][2 gp] Light Crossbow (M) [ 4 lbs][35 gp] Expendable Items (4) Scroll of (mage amor) c[CL 1] [0.0 lb each = 0,0 lbs][ gp each = 100 gp] (3) Potion of (Cure light wounds) [CL 1] [0.1 lb each = 0,3 lbs][50 gp each = 150 gp] Total = 250 Max total (32 x 50): 450 gp Equipment at Home rope (hempen 50 ft [1 lbs][1 gp] Flint and steel [ - lbs][1 gp] Bedroll [5 lbs][1/10 gp] Ink 1 oz vial [ - lbs][8 gp] Ink pen [ - lbs][1/10 gp] Paper 10 sheet [ - lbs][ 4 gp] Sealing wax [1 lbs][1 gp] water skin [4 lbs][1 gp] (result) vs (Character Name (Player Name)) - [??? xp] [??? gp] (result) in (quest name) - [??? xp] [??? gp] (result) vs (Character Name (Player Name)) - [??? xp] [??? gp] (result) in (miniquest name) - [??? xp] [??? gp] (result) vs (Character Name (Player Name)) - [??? xp] [??? gp] (result) in (campaign name) - [??? xp] [??? gp] Allies Maximum CR per ally: CR 1 Maximum ECL per ally: ECL 1 Maximum CA of allies per fight: CA 1 Gender and Race: (Male) (Raven) Size and Type: (Size) (Tiny, magical beast) Height and Weight: (0,9) (1 lb) Age: (1 year) Alignment: (neutral) Attributes STR 1(-5) DEX 15 (+2) CON 10 (+0) INT 7 (-2) WIS 14 (+2) CHA 6 (-2) Miscellaneous Statistics Hit Points: 6 [3 HD] [½ Master] Armor Class (Normal): 16 [10 Base, +2 Dex, +2 Size, +2 Natural] Armor Class (Touch): 14 [10 Base, 2 Dex, 2 Size] Armor Class (Flat-Footed): 14 [10 Base, 2 Size, 2 Natural] Initiative: +2 [2 Dex] Base Attack Bonus: +1 Grapple: -16 [1 BAB, -5 Str, -12 Size] Speed (Land): 10 ft Speed (Flight): 40 ft, Average maneuverability ]] Weight Carried: 0 lbs, light encumbrance Saves Fortitude: +2 [As master] Reflex: +3 [As master] Will: +4 [As master] Melee Attacks (Claws) +5, 1d2-5, (20/x2), (damage type) [2 Dex, 1 BAB, 2 Size] Ranged Attacks Special Attacks and Abilities Speaks Common, Alertness when in arms reach of Snaga, Improved Evasion, Share Spells Empathic link, Deliver touch spells Feats Improved evasionFamiliar weapon FinesseRaven AlertnessRaven Skills Languages: Common Total Skill Points: same as master Armor Check Penalty: -0 Appraise: 1 [-2 Int ] (Conditional Modifier: +3 From Raven) Balance: 2 [2 Dex,] Climb: -5 [-5 Str] Concentration: 6 [1 Con, 6 Ranks ] Decipher Script: -1 [-2 Int, 1 Ranks ] Gather Information: 0 [-2 Cha, 2 Ranks ] Heal: 2 [ 2 Wis ] Hide: 2 [2 Dex] Jump: -5 [-5 Str, ] Knowledge (Arcana): 4 [-2 Int, 6 Ranks ] Knowledge (Architecture & Engineering): 0 [-2 Int] Knowledge (Dungeoneering): 0 [-2 Int, 2 Ranks ] Knowledge (Geography): 0 [-2 Int, 2 Ranks ] Knowledge (History): 4 [-2 Int, 6? Ranks ] Knowledge (Local): 0 [-2 Int, 2 Ranks ] Knowledge (Nature): -1 [-2 Int, 1 Ranks ] Knowledge (Nobility & Royalty): 0 [-2 Int, 2 Ranks ] Knowledge (Religion): -1 [-2 Int, 1 Ranks ] Knowledge (The Planes): 0 [-2 Int, 2 Ranks ] Listen: 7 [2 Wis, (5 Ranks )] Move Silently: 2 [2 Dex, ] Profession (teacher): 3 [2 Wis, 1 Ranks ] Search: -2 [-2 Int] Sense Motive: 2 [2 Wis, ] Spellcraft: 4 [-2 Int, 6 Ranks, ] Spot: 9 [2 Wis, 7 Ranks] Survival: 2 [2 Wis] Use Rope: 2 [2 Dex, ] Equipment Worn and Carried None [?? lbs][?? gp] Miscellaneous Information Speak common Cantrips: Acid Splash, Arcane Mark, Dancing Lights, Daze, Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Disrupt Undead, Flare, Ghost Sound, Light, Mage Hand, Mending, Message, Open/Close, Prestidigitation, Ray of Frost, Read Magic, Resistance, Touch of Fatigue Level 1: Magic Missile, Shocking Grasp, Ray of Enfeeblement, SleepDC 2, Mage Armor, Burning Hands, Magic Weapon, Disguise Self, Erase Level 2: Hideous LaughterDC 2, Scorching Ray Total Pages Available: 100 Total Pages Used: 33 [(19 Cantrips), (10 x 1), (2 x 2)] Starting: 3200 XP Earned: 0 XP Spent: 0 XP Remaining: 3200 XP Starting: 3000 gp Earned: 0 gp Spent: 2336,2 gp Remaining: 663,8 gp Time Between Fights: ? hrs Prebuffs/Ongoing Effects: xxxxx (time remaining), xxxxx (time remaining) Items Used: xxxxx, xxxxx Spells or Powerpoints Used: xxxxx x/day Abilities Used: xxxxx Free Activity: xxxxx Time Between Fights: ? hrs Prebuffs/Ongoing Effects: xxxxx (time remaining), xxxxx (time remaining) Items Used: xxxxx, xxxxx Spells or Powerpoints Used: xxxxx x/day Abilities Used: xxxxx Free Activity: xxxxx Time Between Fights: ? hrs Prebuffs/Ongoing Effects: xxxxx (time remaining), xxxxx (time remaining) Items Used: xxxxx, xxxxx Spells or Powerpoints Used: xxxxx x/day Abilities Used: xxxxx Free Activity: xxxxx Optional Information -Use Rowier as a Scout but make sure he stays between xxxx and the foe so that he can return, to deliver touch attacks. -Try to avoid to cast a spell so as to provoke an attack of opportunity. Either take a 5 foot step or if that is, for some reason, impossible cast defensively. -Only drink potion of cure light wounds if the battle is winnable. - Never surrender Knowledge can be gained from defeat. Mineau Guwango hails from the small village of Saltrup, where he lived the quiet life of village teacher. This life was ended when a group of former studies now corrupted by the evil of Denth, burned down Saltrup. After the attack Mineau decided to take up an old interest of his too gather Knowledge from far and wide, And it was this search that led him to Gladius. Would clean it up alittle. Also, you need to spend 100gp to summons your familiar.
Macbrea 10-05-07, 08:30 AM	Ok, now that I have a chance to look it over. Your going to have a bit of a problem making 3 fights worth of wins. But that is more a factor of wizard then anything else. I would expect to win one, lose one and be boarderline on the third fight. That is just the nature of wizard in the low levels. The cures for that are things like a wand of magic missiles give gives you an always hit at the low levels. Also, don't get discouraged with him if he looses in the low levels. At about 5th or 6th wizards start to pick up and become deadly.
Turanson 10-05-07, 08:41 AM	Thanks a lot Macbrea for the hast and very usefull reply About the wand of magic missiles it seems to cost 750 gp and since it is an expendable item I can,t buy it, at the start since I may only have expendable tems for 450 gp. Am I right or am I missing somthing.
Callix 10-05-07, 08:49 AM	Thanks a lot Macbrea for the hast and very usefull reply About the wand of magic missiles it seems to cost 750 gp and since it is an expendable item I can,t buy it, at the start since I may only have expendable tems for 450 gp. Am I right or am I missing somthing. "Expendables" has a very specific meaning in the Coliseum. Scrolls, potions, oils, powerstones and psionic tattoos are defined as "expendables", and fall under the cap. Any other item, whether or not it can be expended, does not count against your cap. The loss of the cost of your item is considered penalty enough for using such items. On another topic, if two characters start with partial LoS, does the one who wins initiative get an auto-spot? I seem to remember something like this happening, but thought I'd get confirmation. I won't be running the fight itself for 8+ hours, so there's no rush.
hogarth 10-05-07, 09:07 AM	Whelp, hows this (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13975115&postcount=1239) look? Everything look legal? The last feat, Rapid Reload (Firearms), will likely be changed for Rapid Reload (Musket) for legality reasons, but no one really seems sure yet. Not many firearm builds enter the coliseum? Firearms have very little advantage over a composite longbow; you can't use rapid shot, you don't get your Str bonus to damage, and they're more expensive. You might want to go through a few strategies and see how you would counter them: A faster opponent who wants to grapple --> maybe get a horse for mobility An invisible opponent --> maybe get a scroll of See Invisibility An opponent with a lot of allies --> maybe get a potion of Protection from Evil to hedge out summoned monsters, or an ally of your own to run interference A spellcaster with save-or-die spells --> maybe get a scroll of Mirror Image to make yourself hard to target Monsters with DR --> maybe get some silver/cold iron bullets, or an oil of Magic Weapon By the way, what classes are you taking after this? More bard and fighter? If so, why is your Int so high?
templer10 10-05-07, 09:15 AM	"Expendables" has a very specific meaning in the Coliseum. Scrolls, potions, oils, powerstones and psionic tattoos are defined as "expendables", and fall under the cap. Any other item, whether or not it can be expended, does not count against your cap. The loss of the cost of your item is considered penalty enough for using such items. On another topic, if two characters start with partial LoS, does the one who wins initiative get an auto-spot? I seem to remember something like this happening, but thought I'd get confirmation. I won't be running the fight itself for 8+ hours, so there's no rush. yes he does since the other char can't hide when FF.
Eamane 10-05-07, 12:29 PM	*snip* By the way, what classes are you taking after this? More bard and fighter? If so, why is your Int so high? Gun builds requires 18 intelligence to have sufficient Knowledge modifiers to use guns at ECL 3.
hogarth 10-05-07, 12:41 PM	Gun builds requires 18 intelligence to have sufficient Knowledge modifiers to use guns at ECL 3. Oh I see...because there's no Knowledge: A&E tool. You could always waste a feat on it (Skill Focus or Psicrystal Affinity), I suppose.
Vathelokai 10-05-07, 09:53 PM	Gun builds requires 18 intelligence to have sufficient Knowledge modifiers to use guns at ECL 3. Unless your a cleric of artifice and knowledge. Can get by with int 10 that way.
hogarth 10-05-07, 09:57 PM	Unless your a cleric of artifice and knowledge. Being a cleric with the Knowledge domain helps you with 6 ranks of Know: A&E. So where do you get the rest of the required +10 modifier from (if not Int or Skill Focus)?
Vathelokai 10-05-07, 11:12 PM	Being a cleric with the Knowledge domain helps you with 6 ranks of Know: A&E. So where do you get the rest of the required +10 modifier from (if not Int or Skill Focus)? Artifice domain (from divine srd) gives a +4 to all craft checks and +1CL on conjuration (creation) spells, as it's domain power. Cloistered cleric (knowledge, artifice, magic) 1 , psiwar2, fighter 17 seems the way to go to me. Unless you want to try some ranger 2weapon fighting for 2 pistols at once.
Vathelokai 10-05-07, 11:47 PM	Question: Elans are aberrations. Aberrations are prof. with weapons and armor they are described as using in their stat block. The stat block under Elan is for a lv1 warrior, so it has warhammer, longbow, and studded leather. Do normal elans (non-warriors who do not have a 'fighter' class) get proficiency in those weapons and armor?
Eamane 10-06-07, 01:06 AM	Question: Elans are aberrations. Aberrations are prof. with weapons and armor they are described as using in their stat block. The stat block under Elan is for a lv1 warrior, so it has warhammer, longbow, and studded leather. Do normal elans (non-warriors who do not have a 'fighter' class) get proficiency in those weapons and armor? I don't think so. I recall this being ruled on in a negative fashion a good time ago. I know that the carte blanche 'all blah are proficient with blah and blah' does transfer over into no-racial hitdie creatures, but the more specific 'with weapons described' does not with non-racial hitdie creatures.
whitebaron 10-06-07, 06:12 AM	Question: Elans are aberrations. Aberrations are prof. with weapons and armor they are described as using in their stat block. The stat block under Elan is for a lv1 warrior, so it has warhammer, longbow, and studded leather. Do normal elans (non-warriors who do not have a 'fighter' class) get proficiency in those weapons and armor? if the monster block has an "xxx as player characters block", only this block is used. cf. the Elf monster entries.
hogarth 10-06-07, 09:47 AM	Artifice domain (from divine srd) gives a +4 to all craft checks and +1CL on conjuration (creation) spells, as it's domain power. Check the rules again. Not only do you need a +10 modifier for Craft [firearms] (which is easy enough to get), but you need a +10 modifier for Knowledge [architecture & engineering] (which is harder to get, and Artifice domain doesn't help at all).
Vathelokai 10-06-07, 12:07 PM	Yeah; was half asleep when I wrote that. But you could craft yourself a crystal mask of knowledge (requires 5 ranks to make; +5 for 1250gp when self crafted). Edit: Hrmmm.. Wild elf, max dex (22), moderate wis 1 cloister cleric (knowledge, magic, artifice) - pointblank shot 2 psiwarrior - rapid reload 3 fighter - psionic shot, exotic weapon:firearms 4 fighter - far shot 5 psiwar - psionic meditation 6 fighter - leadership 7 fighter -precise shot 8 fighter 9 fighter -greater psionic shot, weapon focus 10 fighter 11 fighter - improved crit 12 figher - fell shot 13 fighter - power crit 14 figher 15 fighter - improved precise shot, ghost attack something like that, maybe....
Ackermanus 10-06-07, 01:58 PM	Hello again. Can anyone give some advice for my Verger (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13911234#post13911234)? Usualy I play with paladins, don't really have much experience with fighters, and the build kind of got worse than I thout do to the clarification for the tower shield's cover (I become much more vulnerable than invulnerable to arrows :) ). Originaly, I planed him to go for Dwarven Defender (Fighter 4, Dwarf Paragon 3, Dwarven Defender 10, last 3 undecided), but now I see he has litle to no chance of beating anyone who focuses on ranged fighting, even if only do to the lack of healing. The shield might protect from some spells and the relatively high AC will make arrows dificult to land, but unless the dice are with me, something which is, unfortunently, quite rare, enemies can eventually defeat me, even if by spending a large amount of resources. The main problem here is mobility, and perhaps lack of healing. I am open to sugestions, but those that interfere less with the original build would be preferable. Thanks in advance.
Vathelokai 10-06-07, 02:58 PM	Hello again. Can anyone give some advice for my Verger (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13911234#post13911234)? Usualy The potion of jump won't help you much at low level. All ecl3-4 fights are in the arena, and there is little reason to jump there. Maybe buy it again at ecl5. A reach weapon is great for trip builds. Weapons like guisarme (a special trip weapon) are very worth it. Also, a potion of enlarge person makes the tripping worse. You can get one at a lower CL than the one in the SRD. For options vs ranged.... get a mount (maybe with horseshoes of speed), boots of haste, boots of fly, allies to surround with, potion of protection from arrows at low level, custom item of wind wall at higher level ... I'm sure there's more.
Ackermanus 10-06-07, 04:17 PM	The potion of jump won't help you much at low level. All ecl3-4 fights are in the arena, and there is little reason to jump there. Maybe buy it again at ecl5. A reach weapon is great for trip builds. Weapons like guisarme (a special trip weapon) are very worth it. Also, a potion of enlarge person makes the tripping worse. You can get one at a lower CL than the one in the SRD. For options vs ranged.... get a mount (maybe with horseshoes of speed), boots of haste, boots of fly, allies to surround with, potion of protection from arrows at low level, custom item of wind wall at higher level ... I'm sure there's more. Could you tell me how a reach weapon would be better? I mean, besides having reach, why is it better for trips? I am trying to stick to the shield although, as I said, I can change it. As for ranged, the potion of protection from arrows seems to be the most viable option for now, the only mount would be a light horse, and for now I've got no ride. About the potion of jump, you're right, will remove it as soon as possible, and I'll see if I can buy a potion of Enlarge Person. Thanks for answering.
Rauul 10-06-07, 04:36 PM	Could you tell me how a reach weapon would be better? I mean, besides having reach, why is it better for trips? I am trying to stick to the shield although, as I said, I can change it. As for ranged, the potion of protection from arrows seems to be the most viable option for now, the only mount would be a light horse, and for now I've got no ride. About the potion of jump, you're right, will remove it as soon as possible, and I'll see if I can buy a potion of Enlarge Person. Thanks for answering. Well you could go barbarian 1, 2 fighter.. use a med armor till you can craft mithril Full plate.. this would give you +10 speed, anf the rage ability 1/day (while tripping when enlarged... +4 str would be nice).. it does change your build slightly...
Salrantol 10-06-07, 05:45 PM	Yeah; was half asleep when I wrote that. But you could craft yourself a crystal mask of knowledge (requires 5 ranks to make; +5 for 1250gp when self crafted). Edit: Hrmmm.. Wild elf, max dex (22), moderate wis 1 cloister cleric (knowledge, magic, artifice) - pointblank shot 2 psiwarrior - rapid reload 3 fighter - psionic shot, exotic weapon:firearms 4 fighter - far shot 5 psiwar - psionic meditation 6 fighter - leadership 7 fighter -precise shot 8 fighter 9 fighter -greater psionic shot, weapon focus 10 fighter 11 fighter - improved crit 12 figher - fell shot 13 fighter - power crit 14 figher 15 fighter - improved precise shot, ghost attack something like that, maybe....Wouldn't work, you need the proficiency to buy Rapid Reload and you can't get the proficiency without the BAB.
Vathelokai 10-06-07, 05:47 PM	Could you tell me how a reach weapon would be better? I mean, besides having reach, why is it better for trips? I am trying to stick to the shield although, as I said, I can change it. As for ranged, the potion of protection from arrows seems to be the most viable option for now, the only mount would be a light horse, and for now I've got no ride. About the potion of jump, you're right, will remove it as soon as possible, and I'll see if I can buy a potion of Enlarge Person. Thanks for answering. After looking it up, I see that guisarme has the same wording as the flail - "If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the whip to avoid being tripped." Another one to keep in mind - bolas. They allow ranged trip attacks. You would take a -4 for being non-proficient, but they are a touch attack. Also, nets. You can have a rope on the end of a net that is tied to your belt, so if you actually hit someone with it they won't be able to run away (combined with reach weapon and enlarge person...)
MindWandererB 10-06-07, 05:49 PM	Wouldn't work, you need the proficiency to buy Rapid Reload and you can't get the proficiency without the BAB. Just swap Rapid Reload and Far Shot, then.
Vathelokai 10-06-07, 05:51 PM	Wouldn't work, you need the proficiency to buy Rapid Reload and you can't get the proficiency without the BAB. Could switch class and feats for lvs 2 and 3.
whitebaron 10-06-07, 06:15 PM	got a rules question. a psion, let's call him D, is hidden behind a small statue, and spots his opponent, lets call him X. D manifests Ego Whip while X has no clue he was there hidden. D hides his display. does X autospot D? or is it like sniping?
Vathelokai 10-06-07, 06:18 PM	Rules question: If you have quickdraw, how many things can you draw a round? I'm wondering if you could have 4 loaded pistols and use your full BAB to shoot/drop/draw 4 times in one round.
Vathelokai 10-06-07, 06:21 PM	got a rules question. a psion, let's call him D, is hidden behind a small statue, and spots his opponent, lets call him X. D manifests Ego Whip while X has no clue he was there hidden. D hides his display. does X autospot D? or is it like sniping? I'm really not sure. I think I remember something about giving away your position if you use a targeted attack... or maybe it was that you have to make an attack roll to snipe... Not even sure where to look it up.
Salrantol 10-06-07, 06:27 PM	Rules question: If you have quickdraw, how many things can you draw a round? I'm wondering if you could have 4 loaded pistols and use your full BAB to shoot/drop/draw 4 times in one round.I don't see why not, should be like thrown weapons, which require Quick Draw to get iterative attacks--requires carrying a lot of loaded firearms around to be effective though.
MindWandererB 10-06-07, 06:32 PM	got a rules question. a psion, let's call him D, is hidden behind a small statue, and spots his opponent, lets call him X. D manifests Ego Whip while X has no clue he was there hidden. D hides his display. does X autospot D? or is it like sniping?This is a snipe, yes. Although it has the advantage of the attack being silent.Rules question: If you have quickdraw, how many things can you draw a round? I'm wondering if you could have 4 loaded pistols and use your full BAB to shoot/drop/draw 4 times in one round.It's a free action, so yes.
Vathelokai 10-06-07, 08:43 PM	so if you can draw/fire/drop 3 times a round with quickdraw, and considering this snip from crossbows...You can shoot a light crossbow with each hand, but you take a penalty on attack rolls as if attacking with two light weapons. This penalty is cumulative with the penalty for one-handed firing.... could you use rapid fire or 2 weapon fighting with firearms? How about crossbows?
MindWandererB 10-06-07, 08:47 PM	so if you can draw/fire/drop 3 times a round with quickdraw, and considering this snip from crossbows...... could you use rapid fire or 2 weapon fighting with firearms? How about crossbows? Absolutely. It's hard to reload that way, but if you just want to do it once, or carry a whole ton of guns with you, it's quite possible.
Vathelokai 10-06-07, 09:42 PM	Absolutely. It's hard to reload that way, but if you just want to do it once, or carry a whole ton of guns with you, it's quite possible. So which feat is it? 2 weapon or rapid shot. The crossbow text is throwing me off.
MindWandererB 10-06-07, 09:50 PM	Rapid shot and 2WF are not mutually exclusive. A character with both feats, Quickdraw, and a BAB<6 would get three attacks per round, all at -4 to hit (assuming a light crossbow or pistol), just like a monk using flurry and 2WF at the same time. In fact, a monk with those feats could throw 4 shuriken in a round at -6!
Vathelokai 10-07-07, 01:24 PM	If you put touch poison on a shuriken, to you have to do damge with the shuriken or just make the touch AC for the poison to hit the opponent?
Eamane 10-07-07, 01:26 PM	If you put touch poison on a shuriken, to you have to do damge with the shuriken or just make the touch AC for the poison to hit the opponent? If it's injury, you need to do damage. If it's contact, you could deliver it with touch-based attacks.
Vathelokai 10-08-07, 12:15 AM	SHeesh... more questions.... Contact poison says that you can deliver it with a touch attack. Could you do this the same way as with holy water? Throwing vials of it with a 10 ft range increment? Wondering about the price of a custom magic item: Continuous exped retreat boots. By the chart it's 4000gp (seems low; compare to boots of stride and spring, which use longstrider for a similar price). Is there any precedent for this one? Also, could you make the custom item a competence bonus instead of enhancement? The chart has prices for different bonus' on AC and Saves, but not for anything else. Anyone think double price for competence bonus would be fair? Other custom item: using the necklace of fireballs as a template for other spells. For example, necklace of glitterdust orbs, or grease-balls, or webs. Necklace of fireballs uses the pricing of potions, each orb costing (50 x lv3spell = 150gp) x CL. Would it be reasonable and permissible to gain alternate 'necklace of ?' as long as the spell is an area effect? Also, the elemental gem uses the price of potions as well. Could a whole series of summoning gems be crafted? Continuing from those, what about non area effect spells? Could you make acid splash orbs that you can throw as a ranged touch attack? What about touch of fatigue orbs (different since they are not ranged in the first place)?
Rauul 10-08-07, 12:40 AM	SHeesh... more questions.... Contact poison says that you can deliver it with a touch attack. Could you do this the same way as with holy water? Throwing vials of it with a 10 ft range increment? Wondering about the price of a custom magic item: Continuous exped retreat boots. By the chart it's 4000gp (seems low; compare to boots of stride and spring, which use longstrider for a similar price). Is there any precedent for this one? Also, could you make the custom item a competence bonus instead of enhancement? The chart has prices for different bonus' on AC and Saves, but not for anything else. Anyone think double price for competence bonus would be fair? Other custom item: using the necklace of fireballs as a template for other spells. For example, necklace of glitterdust orbs, or grease-balls, or webs. Necklace of fireballs uses the pricing of potions, each orb costing (50 x lv3spell = 150gp) x CL. Would it be reasonable and permissible to gain alternate 'necklace of ?' as long as the spell is an area effect? Also, the elemental gem uses the price of potions as well. Could a whole series of summoning gems be crafted? Continuing from those, what about non area effect spells? Could you make acid splash orbs that you can throw as a ranged touch attack? What about touch of fatigue orbs (different since they are not ranged in the first place)? Actually you will notice that Shadow and Reginald have been doing something similar to that in the blackmarket.. with bracelets instead of necklaces. As for contact poison.. you don't need to do damage, you do need to touch them.. As long as you have the credits... craft away.. 5-15 credits is alot for Custom crafted items (necklace of Glitterdust, necklace of Eradicate Invisibility ect..) Yes Telin noticed the bracelets and is thinking of a way to limit them.. since they aren't expendables but are 1 shot items and they take up a slot.. (just like the necklace of missiles)
TelinArtho 10-08-07, 12:51 AM	On the boots - there's a few items you should look at: Boots of Striding and Springing (5500gp, +10 jump and +10 speed) Boots of Skate (7000gp, +15 speed) Boots of Haste (12000gp, +30 speed (as a part of haste) for 10 rounds/day) An item you should not use to compare is the Horseshoes of Speed, since they clearly break the above... For something as big as +30 speed for a continuous duration - you are probably looking at least 14k (double the price of the boots of skate, for double the speed), but it likely shouldn't be a linear increase (since +10 on the boots of striding and springing works out to be ~3625 - assuming that the jump portion was priced as a "similar ability"). For the rest - like I mentioned before - I'm a little concerned about everyone toting around items that are more efficient than potions without being of a more expensive variety (as in - they make potions useless due to the expendable cap and don't draw AoO for use).
Rauul 10-08-07, 01:16 AM	For the rest - like I mentioned before - I'm a little concerned about everyone toting around items that are more efficient than potions without being of a more expensive variety (as in - they make potions useless due to the expendable cap and don't draw AoO for use). Well unless the character is built to use the Blackmarket, or they have a ton of credits.. you won't see alot of people running around with them.. when was the last time you got a Aoo on someone using a potion?? 9 out of 10 potions are used as a Buff.. besides I would think crushing a charm as a standard action would cause an Aoo... maybe a limit is needed.. but how to do it is the Question..They are already limited by ECL= CL/ML , All mine can easily be made by CL/ML 3..
TelinArtho 10-08-07, 01:50 AM	Well regardless whether you think it should or not - only items that are specifically mentioned to draw an AoO actually do in the Miscellaneous Magic section. Technically - the various elixirs already in existence don't draw AoO. And having something that costs the same as a potion, but doesn't have some of the limitations - that's the problem I have. AoO for CLW, CMW potions are pretty important - and if it means that it can be removed from the equation then the player with credits is just booming with relaxation... I understand that a limit it difficult to impose - which is why I mentioned it and then quickly dropped it. There's plenty of other issues that are causing more problems than my insecurity about non-expendable expendables...
hogarth 10-08-07, 08:35 AM	For the rest - like I mentioned before - I'm a little concerned about everyone toting around items that are more efficient than potions without being of a more expensive variety (as in - they make potions useless due to the expendable cap and don't draw AoO for use). I'm not a big fan of the custom item rules in general, but "potion-like" items are way down the list in terms of abuse, in my view. Frankly, it's the big-ticket items that can be used over and over again that concern me more.
whitebaron 10-08-07, 10:14 AM	I'm thinking about sending Wooly on a quest to find some companions for Mane. (aka some handle animal-allies) Start would be in ~3 weeks... Med. RP, 3 week standard-quest. Still unsure on what animals to best take for ECL5. ;) obviously, maxCR=1, i'd think for 1-2 wolves (cha:2*3), and some scouts. owl/bat/hawk maybe? i've got either 2 or 4 cha-more to spend. i'm a bit unsure about the Handle Animal Rules though. Is the CHA-max value calculated including your items? so, can i get 8(7ranks, 1 cha) or 10(7rnks, 1cha, 2 masterwork whistle)?
Sjiggie 10-08-07, 12:40 PM	Under the new rules only ranks and cha bonus are used to calculate the CHA-max value. This is to prevent of custom +skill items to improve your HA and get stronger animals then intended. If you want I can run the quest for Wooly
templer10 10-08-07, 04:42 PM	I wand to confirm something - the power Hail of crystals - It does 5d4 as a ranged touch power and an additional 9d4 dmg as an AOE power that can affect the same target? since the first part of the power is a ranged touch power - IT can be used with psioninc shot - right?
SauroGrenom 10-08-07, 04:49 PM	I wand to confirm something - the power Hail of crystals - It does 5d4 as a ranged touch power and an additional 9d4 dmg as an AOE power that can affect the same target? since the first part of the power is a ranged touch power - IT can be used with psioninc shot - right? That's right, but the psionic shot damage would only apply to the ranged touch part of the damage. It wouldn't modify the AoE damage.
templer10 10-08-07, 05:00 PM	That's right, but the psionic shot damage would only apply to the ranged touch part of the damage. It wouldn't modify the AoE damage. Still - 5d4+4d6 as ranged touch (with GPS) + 9d4 = 17-76 - avrage - 46 - not bad. Anyone got a recommendation for a level 12 feat for lord lorian (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=11606516&postcount=1082)?
SauroGrenom 10-08-07, 05:45 PM	Did we decide about psionic items and craft universal items? Does it take credits to buy/craft a psionic version of say gauntlets of dexterity +2?
hogarth 10-08-07, 05:48 PM	Did we decide about psionic items and craft universal items? Does it take credits to buy/craft a psionic version of say gauntlets of dexterity +2? Why wouldn't it cost credits? At any rate, I believe Psibeast paid credits to craft a Headband of (Psionic) Intellect. @templer10: For a 12th level feat, I'd suggest EK: Metamorphosis. Also, I'd swap out Mindwipe for Schism. The ability to buff twice as fast, fire a dorje twice as fast, etc. is priceless.
templer10 10-08-07, 06:09 PM	Why wouldn't it cost credits? At any rate, I believe Psibeast paid credits to craft a Headband of (Psionic) Intellect. @templer10: For a 12th level feat, I'd suggest EK: Metamorphosis. Also, I'd swap out Mindwipe for Schism. The ability to buff twice as fast, fire a dorje twice as fast, etc. is priceless. IAm not sure what good will metamorphosis will be 2 me - iam not a Melee person and i have no intrest in being one - exept some AC i dont see ill get much of if - About schisem - i completly forgot that dorja's are command thought items.... Now if i had 2 focuses and that Running - hmm..... Iam not sure About retrieev but the ability to teleport a casters spell component pouch/Holy symbol or Whoever's favorite weapon is in theory very cute...
hogarth 10-08-07, 06:37 PM	IAm not sure what good will metamorphosis will be 2 me - iam not a Melee person and i have no intrest in being one - exept some AC i dont see ill get much of if - About schisem - i completly forgot that dorja's are command thought items.... Now if i had 2 focuses and that Running - hmm..... Iam not sure About retrieev but the ability to teleport a casters spell component pouch/Holy symbol or Whoever's favorite weapon is in theory very cute... I think Retrieve is great (if it works). There are plenty of characters around here who are like an eggshell with a hammer -- take away the hammer and you're lookin' good! :D Plus it's SR=no. Metamorphosis is one of the best buffs around (YMMV). Just pick a form with good AC and stats (like a troll or gargoyle) for everyday use. Pick an umber hulk for burrowing through solid stone. Pick a dragon for good AC and 120' fly speed (in case your mount is dead). Or pick a shambling mound for a smorgasbord of immunities (mind-affecting effects, poison, sleep effects, paralysis, polymorph, critical hits/sneak attacks and stunning).
Vathelokai 10-09-07, 12:09 AM	On the boots - there's a few items you should look at: Boots of Striding and Springing (5500gp, +10 +5 jump and +10 speed) Boots of Skate (7000gp, +15 speed) Boots of Haste (12000gp, +30 speed (as a part of haste) for 10 rounds/day) I think the price on the boots of stride/spring is 2000gp for continuous longstrider and 2500 for +5 jump. Merging them makes the longstrider part 50% more (3000gp). So would boots of continuous longstrider for 2000gp work? And would +10 speed (competence bonus) work for 4000gp? For the rest - like I mentioned before - I'm a little concerned about everyone toting around items that are more efficient than potions without being of a more expensive variety (as in - they make potions useless due to the expendable cap and don't draw AoO for use). I'm okay with the idea of making every one-shot item be under the expendables cap. And 'house ruling' that elixirs function as like potions (draw AoOs) is also fine by me. Silly rules questions for the day: If you have the quickdraw feat and multiple bags of tricks, can you throw 2+ animals per round (depending on feats and BAB)? Can you use quickdraw with a handy haversack to draw items as a free action (haversack specifically says retrieving an item is a move action, but implies that it works like retrieving an item normally)? Would it cost any extra to get a custom efficient quiver that could hold different types of items? Like, instead of holding 60 arrows in one section, it could hold 30 daggers or 120 shuriken? If you had a necklace of fireballs, could you throw multiple orbs per round (item doesn't specify a type of action)?
Vathelokai 10-09-07, 12:12 AM	Did we decide about psionic items and craft universal items? Does it take credits to buy/craft a psionic version of say gauntlets of dexterity +2? I didn't know it was being discussed. Personally I don't think it would be quite fair, since bears/bulls/cats/etc. is all mimicked by one psion power. But then again, it's really not all that much money to buy a couple spells. Why wouldn't it cost credits? At any rate, I believe Psibeast paid credits to craft a Headband of (Psionic) Intellect. She sure did. And another 5 credits for the psionic amulet of health.
Sindorin 10-09-07, 02:06 AM	Hey everyone, just stopping by to see how the 'seum is doing. Looks like lots of fun, I wish I had time to sit down and plot against everyone like old times...
Eamane 10-09-07, 02:53 AM	*snip* Silly rules questions for the day: If you have the quickdraw feat and multiple bags of tricks, can you throw 2+ animals per round (depending on feats and BAB)? Can you use quickdraw with a handy haversack to draw items as a free action (haversack specifically says retrieving an item is a move action, but implies that it works like retrieving an item normally)? Would it cost any extra to get a custom efficient quiver that could hold different types of items? Like, instead of holding 60 arrows in one section, it could hold 30 daggers or 120 shuriken? If you had a necklace of fireballs, could you throw multiple orbs per round (item doesn't specify a type of action)? Re: Quick-draw Animals Well, is a 'ball of fur' considered a weaponlike object? Can it do damage? From what I've gathered, it cannot, so it would not and thus cannot be quickdraw'd. Re: Haversack Well, what kind of object are you trying to quickdraw? Both this and the bag specify what kind of action it is to take things out, but the quickdraw also specifies what kind of action it is to draw something; a specific class of something. Since the sack isn't saying that you cant remove things as a free action, I'd say you can draw weapon-like objects from the haversack as a move (haversack) or free (quickdraw) action, at your option. It is a little murky though. Re: Custom Quiver We have precedent for a magical container that only holds one type of thing and a certain number of them. So it's 'based on a known item' just with different numbers. Sounds straight-forward enough to me, but who knows what the Lords of the Prison might say. Re: Necklace Activating a magic item that doesn't state what kind of action it is to activate it is a standard action. So something that gives you multiple standard actions a round (Familiars with hands, anyone?) or reduced standard actions to move actions. @Sindorin *waves* Heya. Good to see more veterans around. Feel free to hop back any time that you have the time.
TelinArtho 10-09-07, 12:22 PM	Can I interest anyone in requesting a merc this week? I was kind of hoping people would be interested in some of the quality selections available without my own hand-holding... Anyone? Hey everyone, just stopping by to see how the 'seum is doing. Looks like lots of fun, I wish I had time to sit down and plot against everyone like old times... Bah - no excuses - come back and play. We always need some fresh old meat :P
hogarth 10-09-07, 12:38 PM	Silly rules questions for the day: If you have the quickdraw feat and multiple bags of tricks, can you throw 2+ animals per round (depending on feats and BAB)? If you had a necklace of fireballs, could you throw multiple orbs per round (item doesn't specify a type of action)? Activating these two magic items is a standard action distinct from drawing a weapon (IMO). So quickdraw wouldn't help.
Taureus_Drakken 10-09-07, 01:08 PM	@ Telin: I saw your post on the prison thread. You are correct for a cleric version of Bless Weapon. There is no source of getting it at CL 1. It is possible to get at CL 2...As a paladin spell. But that's the lowest CL possible Core-only. There might be a way to get it CL 1 in one of the many splat-books, but it wouldn't help here anyways. ¬Taureus¬
TelinArtho 10-09-07, 01:30 PM	Oh - I know about the paladin version. This is actually a conversation I had a while back with TM when I noticed him purchasing them at CL1 - I told him the minimum was CL2 (paladin). He countered that it was a glory domain spell - so it was available at CL1. What he neglected to notice/mention was that it is a 2nd level glory domain spell - and therefore would not be eligible at CL1.
Macbrea 10-09-07, 02:02 PM	Isn't a paladin allowed to do the same thing as everyone else? Example: A wizard aquires Craft wand at 5th level. He chooses to make a wand of magic missile [CL 1]. He isn't required to make it at his 5th level. He may choose to create the wand at any point upto his current level.
Rauul 10-09-07, 02:04 PM	Isn't a paladin allowed to do the same thing as everyone else? Example: A wizard aquires Craft wand at 5th level. He chooses to make a wand of magic missile [CL 1]. He isn't required to make it at his 5th level. He may choose to create the wand at any point upto his current level. yes, but it must always be at the min caster level to cast the spell... so no fireballs wands CL 1
Rauul 10-09-07, 04:04 PM	Graashnak Vruuurk is a very happy half-orc... when audited.. 2500 extra gp was found.. lost in one of his many drunken stupers i guess..
Rauul 10-09-07, 05:07 PM	Gortek ChaoSlayer is still looking for a miniquest lord to allow him to kill a Evil Outsider... or at least attempt to
SauroGrenom 10-09-07, 09:31 PM	Oh - I know about the paladin version. This is actually a conversation I had a while back with TM when I noticed him purchasing them at CL1 - I told him the minimum was CL2 (paladin). He countered that it was a glory domain spell - so it was available at CL1. What he neglected to notice/mention was that it is a 2nd level glory domain spell - and therefore would not be eligible at CL1.There's something about this that has always bothered me... Isn't it an option for a crafter to make a magic item at a lower CL than the maximum they are able to generate? For example, if a 9th level wizard crafts a scroll of fireball, they can do so at CL5... resulting in a scroll of fireball CL5. So what prohibits a paladin from crafting an item at CL1 even if the paladin is CL8? "Technically" as far as I can tell the spell only requires a CL of 1, it just happens that paladin's spell progression begins with a CL of 2... However that doesn't force a paladin crafter to craft the items at that caster level.
hogarth 10-09-07, 10:06 PM	There's something about this that has always bothered me... Isn't it an option for a crafter to make a magic item at a lower CL than the maximum they are able to generate? For example, if a 9th level wizard crafts a scroll of fireball, they can do so at CL5... resulting in a scroll of fireball CL5. So what prohibits a paladin from crafting an item at CL1 even if the paladin is CL8? "Technically" as far as I can tell the spell only requires a CL of 1, it just happens that paladin's spell progression begins with a CL of 2... However that doesn't force a paladin crafter to craft the items at that caster level. Here's the relevant quote: "A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell." Suppose a sorcerer wants to create a potion of Haste. What is the minimum sorcerer caster level needed to cast Haste? 6th -- a sorcerer with only 5 caster levels cannot cast Haste. So a sorcerer can't create a CL 5 potion of Haste. There's a table that makes it clear, too (sorry for the formatting): Table: Potion Base Prices (By Brewer’s Class) Level Clr, Drd, Wiz Sor Brd Pal, Rgr1 0 25 gp 25 gp 25 gp — 1st 50 gp 50 gp 100 gp 100 gp 2nd 300 gp 400 gp 400 gp 400 gp 3rd 750 gp 900 gp 1,050 gp 750 gp 1. Caster level is half class level. Prices assume that the potion was made at the minimum caster level.
hogarth 10-09-07, 10:13 PM	This doesn't really affect our rules, but there are excerpts out from the Rules Compendium here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20071009a It looks like they kind of rewrote things. For instance, consider this quote: "When an opponent has pinned you, you are held stationary (but not helpless) for 1 round. You can’t take any actions the creature pinning you doesn’t allow, even speaking." Note that this disagrees completely with Rules of the Game: Grappling (Part Three) which says you can use spell-like abilities, cast Still + Silent spells, etc.
SauroGrenom 10-09-07, 10:58 PM	Here's the relevant quote: "A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell." Suppose a sorcerer wants to create a potion of Haste. What is the minimum sorcerer caster level needed to cast Haste? 6th -- a sorcerer with only 5 caster levels cannot cast Haste. So a sorcerer can't create a CL 5 potion of Haste. There's a table that makes it clear, too (sorry for the formatting): Table: Potion Base Prices (By Brewer’s Class) Level Clr, Drd, Wiz Sor Brd Pal, Rgr1 0 25 gp 25 gp 25 gp — 1st 50 gp 50 gp 100 gp 100 gp 2nd 300 gp 400 gp 400 gp 400 gp 3rd 750 gp 900 gp 1,050 gp 750 gp 1. Caster level is half class level. Prices assume that the potion was made at the minimum caster level. Oh. I looked at that table and didn't really understand it till you said that just now. I assumed that there was a different "base" price for rangers and paladins...
MindWandererB 10-09-07, 11:52 PM	This doesn't really affect our rules, but there are excerpts out from the Rules Compendium here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20071009a It looks like they kind of rewrote things. For instance, consider this quote: "When an opponent has pinned you, you are held stationary (but not helpless) for 1 round. You can’t take any actions the creature pinning you doesn’t allow, even speaking." Note that this disagrees completely with Rules of the Game: Grappling (Part Three) which says you can use spell-like abilities, cast Still + Silent spells, etc. Yeah... from what little I've seen of the Rules Compendium, it looks like a load of crock. It doesn't seem to elaborate on much of anything, just paraphrasing (badly, in this case) what's in the core rulebooks. And clearly, being pinned shouldn't prevent you from using mental-only abilities.
whitebaron 10-10-07, 01:41 AM	"When an opponent has pinned you, you are held stationary (but not helpless) for 1 round. You can’t take any actions the creature pinning you doesn’t allow, even speaking." this is completely bollocks and directly contradicts the original rules. good example why you shouldn't buy the RC. silent dimension door is a typical anti-grappling thing
Vathelokai 10-10-07, 01:54 AM	So in case no one guessed, I'm working on a throwing build. Can I get a witness! half elf paragon 2 weapon fighting, quickdraw, elven vision human paragon adaptive learning (gather info?, UPD?) bard farshot, bardic knowledge, inspire confidence barbarian +1 dex, +10 speed, rage psiwar speed of thought psiwar point blank shot, rapid shot barbarian uncanny dodge elf persuasion (+ to cha skills), +1CL, +1 dex elf feat, +2 dex human bonus feat, +1CL human +2 dex, +1CL thug (9 lvs) 7 total feats Might throw 1 lv of elocator in there for good luck.
hogarth 10-10-07, 07:41 AM	What is the CR of an Obsidian Steed (for purposes of bringing it in as an ally)? The same as a heavy warhorse (CR 2)? Also, are the Obsidian Steed's powers (overland flight, plane shift, ethereal jaunt) spell-like or supernatural abilities?
Callix 10-10-07, 07:51 AM	Another odd rules question: how do the evil variant paladin levels interact with levels in Blackguard? I can see three options: 1. There are no special interactions. You gain blackguard abilities and retain all paladin abilities, but can no longer take additional levels of paladin (multiclass restriction). 2. You retain all your abilities, and gain the listed benefits for being an ex-paladin blackguard appropriate for your level. You can no longer take levels of paladin. 3. You lose all Paladin abilities, regardless of your alignment, but gain the ex-paladin blackguard benefits. You can no longer take levels in Paladin. Realistically, I'd think 1. Letter-of-the-law, I'd take 2, but for balance, 1, 3 or free choice between 1 and 3 would all be good. Option 2 is probably overpowered.
McJarvis 10-10-07, 08:10 AM	Another odd rules question: how do the evil variant paladin levels interact with levels in Blackguard? I can see three options: 1. There are no special interactions. You gain blackguard abilities and retain all paladin abilities, but can no longer take additional levels of paladin (multiclass restriction). 2. You retain all your abilities, and gain the listed benefits for being an ex-paladin blackguard appropriate for your level. You can no longer take levels of paladin. 3. You lose all Paladin abilities, regardless of your alignment, but gain the ex-paladin blackguard benefits. You can no longer take levels in Paladin. Realistically, I'd think 1. Letter-of-the-law, I'd take 2, but for balance, 1, 3 or free choice between 1 and 3 would all be good. Option 2 is probably overpowered. It specifies that you need to be an _ex_ paladin for the blackguard add-ons to work, so you'd have to be an evil pally, then go goodie for a bit, then change back to evil, not atone, and take the blackguard class.
McJarvis 10-10-07, 08:11 AM	On a personal note, my move is finished and I am getting my cable access on Friday. We'll see if I can get something up by two weeks from now. [Yet again I'm going for a fresh character]
hogarth 10-10-07, 08:20 AM	It specifies that you need to be an _ex_ paladin for the blackguard add-ons to work, so you'd have to be an evil pally, then go goodie for a bit, then change back to evil, not atone, and take the blackguard class. Well, technically you might be able to start as a paladin of slaughter, become an ex-paladin of slaughter (by not "sow[ing] destruction and death at all opportunities", say), and then become a blackguard with ex-paladin benefits -- all without ever having a good alignment. Personally, I'd prefer to say that only paladins of honour or freedom can be ex-paladins as far as the blackguard class is concerned. However, you could certainly make a Paladin of Slaughter 7/Blackguard 10 (without the ex-paladin abilities).
TheMagister 10-10-07, 02:05 PM	Oh - I know about the paladin version. This is actually a conversation I had a while back with TM when I noticed him purchasing them at CL1 - I told him the minimum was CL2 (paladin). He countered that it was a glory domain spell - so it was available at CL1. What he neglected to notice/mention was that it is a 2nd level glory domain spell - and therefore would not be eligible at CL1. I was scoping out a Glory domain cleric to use as a Sdentchian cohort, and thought I had those spells memorized. You know what fooled me? Disrupt Undead being listed as a 1st level Glory Domain spell. D.U. is a 0th level spell everywhere else, and I think my brain just read it that way. I wasn't trying to pull a fast one. It was just an honest mistake.
Rauul 10-10-07, 03:25 PM	Question... Whats the cost to Add Chameleon 3/day to a Cloak of Elvenkind Cloak of Elvenkind =2500gp 3/day level 1 power =1080gp Would it just be 1080gp and 15 credits?
whitebaron 10-10-07, 03:36 PM	Question... Whats the cost to Add Chameleon 3/day to a Cloak of Elvenkind Cloak of Elvenkind =2500gp 3/day level 1 power =1080gp Would it just be 1080gp and 15 credits? if you have multiple powers/abilities on the same item, it gets multiplied, *1.5 since psionics and magic are different enough, it would be fair to assume that this is not a similar function, as this would even give a discount according to the magic item rules... MAGIC ITEM GOLD PIECE VALUES Many factors must be considered when determining the price of new magic items. The easiest way to come up with a price is to match the new item to an item that is already priced that price as a guide. Otherwise, use the guidelines summarized on Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values. Multiple Similar Abilities: For items with multiple similar abilities that don’t take up space on a character’s body use the following formula: Calculate the price of the single most costly ability, then add 75% of the value of the next most costly ability, plus one-half the value of any other abilities. Multiple Different Abilities: Abilities such as an attack roll bonus or saving throw bonus and a spell-like function are not similar, and their values are simply added together to determine the cost. For items that do take up a space on a character’s body each additional power not only has no discount but instead has a 50% increase in price.
Rauul 10-10-07, 03:49 PM	if you have multiple powers/abilities on the same item, it gets multiplied, *1.5 since psionics and magic are different enough, it would be fair to assume that this is not a similar function, as this would even give a discount according to the magic item rules... well you offically confused me... say that again as if your talking to someone medicated to the hilt.. cause you will be..
whitebaron 10-10-07, 04:04 PM	well you offically confused me... say that again as if your talking to someone medicated to the hilt.. cause you will be.. *trying* usually, you have a higher cost for additional item props. so one effect(power or spell doesnt matter) = normal price two effects = 1,5*price for second effect + normal price for first effect. as per magic/psionics transparency, you should have to pay this additional factor even when you make a half psionic/half magic item. lets take the classic cost-example: boots of striding and springing. used effects: +5 jump (5 squared * 100 = 2500) +10 speed (longstrider 1 sl * 1 cl *2000 continous = 2000) since this are two different effects, the lower one gets multiplied x1.5 => 2500 + 2000*1.5 = 5500 price as listed. so though your gold price is correct for a singular item, 1080*1.5 it would cost to add it to an existing item.
Rauul 10-10-07, 04:09 PM	*trying* usually, you have a higher cost for additional item props. so one effect(power or spell doesnt matter) = normal price two effects = 1,5*price for second effect + normal price for first effect. as per magic/psionics transparency, you should have to pay this additional factor even when you make a half psionic/half magic item. lets take the classic cost-example: boots of striding and springing. used effects: +5 jump (5 squared * 100 = 2500) +10 speed (longstrider 1 sl * 1 cl *2000 continous = 2000) since this are two different effects, the lower one gets multiplied x1.5 => 2500 + 2000*1.5 = 5500 price as listed. so though your gold price is correct for a singular item, 1080*1.5 it would cost to add it to an existing item. So your telling me it would cost me 1620gp and 15 credits to add it to the cloak.... Thanks.. guess i will do something else...
Hirumajoe 10-10-07, 05:23 PM	Moving the "Its a small world" discussion from the Fights of the week thread to the tavern... hide!!!!!! Run away!!! or Feed him.. :) That response is probably better applied to my 3 year old daughter than myself... :)
Rauul 10-10-07, 05:55 PM	Moving the "Its a small world" discussion from the Fights of the week thread to the tavern... That response is probably better applied to my 3 year old daughter than myself... :) eep a 3yr... cute as a button and can teach them all sorts of words to take home with them... oh yea, run and hide.. or feed her lots of chocolate before sending her home to Hirumajoe :)
Erithmu 10-10-07, 06:04 PM	.... Tell Daddy 'You got pwned' ... I'm not sure I have all the words your thinking of in my day to day vocabulary ... All my words have four syllables ... as opposed to letters.
Vath 10-11-07, 08:22 AM	Had to go make meself an alternate account, just to get in here. So it looks like migrating old accounts is broken, and making new ones is slow. Lovely. Anyone else think this is enough reason to take the week off from pairings and such?
Sjiggie 10-11-07, 09:07 AM	I had no problems with migrating my account but I see that others do have problems with their accounts. I wouldn't mind to hold off the pairings for one week so that everybody has acces to their old accounts again. -Sjiggie
McJarvis 10-11-07, 09:34 AM	Had to go make meself an alternate account, just to get in here. So it looks like migrating old accounts is broken, and making new ones is slow. Lovely. Anyone else think this is enough reason to take the week off from pairings and such? My migration went pretty smoothly. Make sure your guildmaster account is set to the same e-mail address as your regular account & you can link the two under the new system. Obviously I have no input on delaying deadlines for pairings.
Guildmaster (CEF) 10-11-07, 09:41 AM	Well - it will really depend on how it went for MWB... If pairings are done - all persons for whom I run fights should send their tactics to this address until further notice. I've had some conversation with the community liaison - but we haven't yet solved the problem (though I did uncover part of the confusion about it...)
whitebaron 10-11-07, 10:50 AM	Well - it will really depend on how it went for MWB... If pairings are done - all persons for whom I run fights should send their tactics to this address until further notice. I've had some conversation with the community liaison - but we haven't yet solved the problem (though I did uncover part of the confusion about it...) care to share the infos? :) btw: i wouldn't mind sitting out a week, i wouldn't mind playing this week. but actually, it seems like there are only a few people around here atm... so, better wait. ;) accidentally, i migrated my account quite close to the switch where you had to do this, so maybe just some system broke down behind and has to be recovered... somehow. since i know how those things work (poor me) i deem it highly unlikely that the boards will be back to normal before another week has passed. so even if pairings can be completed today, i think it would be best to sit out a week.
Guildmaster (CEF) 10-11-07, 11:05 AM	Well the key to the confusion is probably a security hole that they had to close up - which is something I don't want to necessarily reveal (in case it is still broken when it comes back online), but the simple reason why the initial migration failed is user error (mine). The current issue seems to be something on their end - but that will have to wait until I see for sure.
whitebaron 10-11-07, 12:34 PM	security issues is all i need to hear to go banging my head on the table and say "i'm not here, lalalalalalalalala, i can't hear you"... well, let's wait and see. btw: it's really annoying when you have coco in your favorites, that you always end up on the start page of the forum, and then have to reclick your link. this seems to be some other issue with the registration/cookies.
hogarth 10-11-07, 12:38 PM	My character Balthazar Picsou (see my sig for a link) will have a decent amount of funds available in the next few fights (~20K-30K). I'm wondering what to buy for him. Here are the constraints: Because of the way the Discount free activity works, one expensive item is better than two cheap items (ceteris paribus). Defensive items are mostly useless unless they allow him to avoid attacks completely (like invisibility). NO CHARGED ITEMS (except see below...). No custom items that cost more than 1K gp (approx.). Save-or-be-screwed items or items that provide allies preferred. Here are the candidates I'm looking at so far: 2-3 more Bronze Griffons: I really like this item! He'd use them to try to hold his opponent helpless while he uses Death Attacks. Mask of the Skull: Save-or-die, but only usable once per day and requires a ranged touch attack + save. Mirror of Mind Switch: Save-or-...something, only usable once per day and requires gaze + save. On the plus side, it's conceivable that an opponent might be scared into avoiding the gaze effect whether it's activated or not. Iron Bands of Bilarro: Save-or-be-screwed, only usable once per day, ranged touch and no save/SR. Obsidian Steed: A heavy warhorse is pretty useless, but it has one amazing power -- Plane Touch usable at will. That means a save-or-die effect that can be used every round for 24 hours straight, unless it dies or gets dispelled first. There may be drawbacks, though; see the Courtroom thread for details. Nine Lives Stealer: O.K., this has charges, but what are the odds that Picsou will get 9 critical hits before he retires? Rod of Wonder (+ Bronze Griffon): Half of the effects are useless or detrimental, but there's a slight chance at getting something good and you can use it over and over and over and over again. Save up for something really awesome: Mirror of Opposition? Mirror of Life Trapping? Well of Many Worlds? Daern's Instant Fortress? X of Controlling Y Elementals? Any other suggestions you folks can offer me?
whitebaron 10-11-07, 12:54 PM	Iron Bands of Bilarro: Save-or-be-screwed, only usable once per day, ranged touch and no save/SR. Obsidian Steed: A heavy warhorse is pretty useless, but it has one amazing power -- Plane Touch usable at will. That means a save-or-die effect that can be used every round for 24 hours straight, unless it dies or gets dispelled first. There may be drawbacks, though; see the Courtroom thread for details. i'd use the bands if you need something now. or the griffons. the plane shift spell and thus the steeds ability, has one really important drawback: willing creatures only.
hogarth 10-11-07, 01:13 PM	the plane shift spell and thus the steeds ability, has one really important drawback: willing creatures only. From the SRD: Plane Shift Conjuration (Teleportation) Level: Clr 5, Sor/Wiz 7 Components: V, S, F Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Target: Creature touched, or up to eight willing creatures joining hands Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: Will negates Spell Resistance: Yes Psionic Plane Shift is different, however (willing creatures only).
whitebaron 10-11-07, 02:17 PM	ah well, that's that. oversight. - but as discussed in the courtroom, i doubt you could train the statue to perform such a trick. (and you'd need about 15 ranks in handle animal - 20 for the trick, +5 for magical beast. ) the will save here is another problem - what's the dc? it would be 16(cleric) or 13(wizard)? and there's always the question if it does work at all, or is similar to the djinni or bebilith abilities, which state that you can use it on yourself(beb) or willing creatures(djinni)
Guildmaster (CEF) 10-11-07, 03:34 PM	Okay - warning to the readers of this - here's a pretty silly concept that has led myself and my brother to rather startling conclusions... Start off with a medium size human. Cast an Enlarge Person on him - now he is large size. He does battle with a Troll Natural Were-tyrannosaurus and loses (big surprise since the human is merely a Level 1 Fighter). Does the human, assuming a failed Fortitude save, contract Lycanthropy? If not - why? If the reasoning is because the Enlarge Person is not permanent - change the above situation to a Permanent Enlarge Person that is later dismissed/dispelled. The goal here being: A medium-sized human able to alternate form into a huge creature... As an aside, this conversation with my brother actually started off on the opposite end of the spectrum - a Goblin Were-Toad - where the goblin would be reduced to tiny size, become afflicted, and then dispel the reduce. This situation can't possibly work though - since you cannot make a were-toad out of any humanoid/giant in any known module (but if there is one out there - let me know...) since none are tiny in size.
hogarth 10-11-07, 03:43 PM	It sounds like yet another version of the Eternal Question: "Can I use [non-innate condition X] to qualify for [class/feat/etc. Y]?" I can only respond with the Eternal Answer: "Ask your DM." ;)
Guildmaster (CEF) 10-11-07, 03:52 PM	Well - that's the beauty of it - I am the DM. The general idea we were working with was something that seemed non-threatening - like a Wizard's Familiar - that suddenly became a credible threat. His first idea was something along the lines of a super-templated creature (Hmm - Phrenic Fiendish Half-Dragon Toad and leveled up with wizard/cleric/psion - some caster class). Obviously not as a player character - but as some diabolical BBEG. The were-creature works out pretty nice (though I do find it funny that a goblin were-toad would be still small size in hybrid form - but would likely be dropped to 1str automatically...) without nearly as many templates - but runs into the size issue. I have tossed around an intelligent cat along the same lines, but nothing too impressive has come out of it yet...
Macbrea 10-11-07, 03:55 PM	I believe the correct answer Telin is people that fail to maintain class restrictions loose all class features. Racial features such as Lycanthropy are actually Monster Class features. Failure to be Large Size no longer qualifies you for such class. Now. This is broken when you consider one of our prestige classes. Dragon disciples require: Race (Any Nondragon). At 10th level of the class. It gains the Half-dragon template ad it's type is changed to Dragon. This of course invalidates the previous 10 levels worth of class features. But who is counting. Any reasonable DM would just run with it.
Eamane 10-11-07, 03:56 PM	Re: Goblin Were-toad It takes a bit, but you can have a 'normal' were-toad. A incarnate construct (turns constructs into humanoids or giants, depending on size) of tiny size (homonculus in core) could be cursed with lycanthropy and thus spawn a race of incarnate construct were-toads which then infect your reduced goblin. Re: Super ultra were-being RAW, sure it would work. But as soon as the character no longer meets the requirements for the template, bad things happen. IMHO, you'd have to be enlarged at all times to gain the benefits of your template. Which is a pretty subjective ruling and comes down to Hogarth's answer. Awhile ago, I tried to hammer out using permanent/non-permanent things to qualify for feats/prestige classes and MWB's answer was 'If it's not an item or permanent spell, it's not permanent enough', to paraphrase. That conversation did not touch on templates or size-changing however, so it may or may not be the ruling of choice for this matter. EDIT: On that note, I am suddenly struck by a desire to use Incarnate Construct... though games that allow Savage Species are few and far between (mostly due to Feral. Dangit).
Guildmaster (CEF) 10-11-07, 04:02 PM	Well the creation here is far from a "super ultra were-being" - but I was looking into it as a possible BBEG for a future campaign. Essentially the "frail" form gives way to an advanced form - the animal or hybrid. By no means was I trying to implement this in the CoCo... I've found that I'm not fond of using the LA from a lycanthrope - not enough benefit for too big of a cost. On the other - well - I'm sure my brother will be happy to find out about it...
McJarvis 10-11-07, 04:02 PM	Okay - warning to the readers of this - here's a pretty silly concept that has led myself and my brother to rather startling conclusions... Start off with a medium size human. Cast an Enlarge Person on him - now he is large size. He does battle with a Troll Natural Were-tyrannosaurus and loses (big surprise since the human is merely a Level 1 Fighter). Does the human, assuming a failed Fortitude save, contract Lycanthropy? If not - why? If the reasoning is because the Enlarge Person is not permanent - change the above situation to a Permanent Enlarge Person that is later dismissed/dispelled. The goal here being: A medium-sized human able to alternate form into a huge creature... As an aside, this conversation with my brother actually started off on the opposite end of the spectrum - a Goblin Were-Toad - where the goblin would be reduced to tiny size, become afflicted, and then dispel the reduce. This situation can't possibly work though - since you cannot make a were-toad out of any humanoid/giant in any known module (but if there is one out there - let me know...) since none are tiny in size. Take it a step further: What if you did chains of polymorph any object's to get a rock to eventually be human? if the poly's were dispelled would the rock still have lycanthropy?
Guildmaster (CEF) 10-11-07, 04:14 PM	I believe the correct answer Telin is people that fail to maintain class restrictions loose all class features. Racial features such as Lycanthropy are actually Monster Class features. Failure to be Large Size no longer qualifies you for such class. Now. This is broken when you consider one of our prestige classes. So... the most effective way to cure lycanthropy in persons who are not the same size at their animal form? Just cast Permanent Enlarge/Reduce Person as appropriate - and BAM - they can't change form anymore... The problem of course is that the situation is ambiguous about what happens. In the case of the human werewolf lord - for example - he loses a lot of power by the casting of a successful reduce person on him. What does he lose by losing the template then? The ability to change form? The natural armor bonus? What about the animal hit dice (and therefore the extra hit points)? As a DM - I am more inclined to say he can still use the lycanthropy template even when Enlarge is dispelled than to deal with the players coming up against a human werewolf lord and just reduce person him into weakness...
McJarvis 10-11-07, 04:20 PM	[QUOTE=Guildmaster (CEF);14053138]So... the most effective way to cure lycanthropy in persons who are not the same size at their animal form? QUOTE] It isn't a cure so much as a temporary fix. The example I'm familiar with is the Foclyian Lyrist: Evasion is a prereq for the class, and many people use a ring of evasion. If you remove the ring, you lose the benefit of the class features of the class. If you put it back on- you gain the features again. I'd imagine it's the same for lycanthropy. edit-> Or I could read the SRD. "Curse of Lycanthropy (Su): Any humanoid or giant hit by a natural lycanthrope’s bite attack in animal or hybrid form must succeed on a DC 15 Fortitude save or contract lycanthropy. [b]If the victim’s size is not within one size category of the lycanthrope the victim cannot contract lycanthropy from that lycanthrope. Afflicted lycanthropes cannot pass on the curse of lycanthropy." It only checks the size at the infection point.
Macbrea 10-11-07, 04:36 PM	Yikes. That could be dangerous.. As a DM I suggest nixing the whole were-teranosauris bites your PC and infects him deal. :P
MindWandererB 10-11-07, 04:39 PM	Okay - warning to the readers of this - here's a pretty silly concept that has led myself and my brother to rather startling conclusions... Start off with a medium size human. Cast an Enlarge Person on him - now he is large size. He does battle with a Troll Natural Were-tyrannosaurus and loses (big surprise since the human is merely a Level 1 Fighter). Does the human, assuming a failed Fortitude save, contract Lycanthropy? If not - why? If the reasoning is because the Enlarge Person is not permanent - change the above situation to a Permanent Enlarge Person that is later dismissed/dispelled. The goal here being: A medium-sized human able to alternate form into a huge creature... As an aside, this conversation with my brother actually started off on the opposite end of the spectrum - a Goblin Were-Toad - where the goblin would be reduced to tiny size, become afflicted, and then dispel the reduce. This situation can't possibly work though - since you cannot make a were-toad out of any humanoid/giant in any known module (but if there is one out there - let me know...) since none are tiny in size.I say it would not be legal. It might be legal at the time of exposure, but the lycanthrope (huge) template is not legal for a medium-sized character. Keep in mind that lycanthropes, being of the humanoid type even when in animal form, can be affected by Enlarge Person. So by normal (not CoCo) rules, a human who became a werebear while Enlarged would, if the lycanthropy were somehow triggered immediately, become a Huge bear. Yor brother's proposed character would therefore turn into a Gargantuan weretyrannosaurus when Enlarged, which is still illegal. Edit: It doesn't just check at the time of infection: "This animal can be any predator, scavenger, or omnivore whose size is within one size category of the base creature’s size (Small, Medium, or Large for a Medium base creature)." ------------------ Now, account issues: They did announce that the accounts were going to be merged by email address. Remember that I reminded you all to check your email addresses, especially for avatar accounts, at that time. So I have access to Pitlords, Guildmaster (TLT), and Communitylords. For some reason, Pitlords is showing up as "Retired" in Gleemax, but I can use it here just fine. Unfortunately, the option to change passwords and email addresses seems to be gone, and even if they are restored, I doubt there will be any way to make the Pitlords account shared without sharing my personal password as well. Since GMs no longer have editing privileges, this presents us with a severe dilemma. As things stand, if I'm not able to do pairings, then they can't be done. And if I have to leave for any reason, my replacement would have to copy every Pitlords-run thread in their name. I've mentioned this in the VCM thread, and I hope it gets somewhere. If mod powers are restored to GMs, a simple solution would be for me to have someone, probably Telin, declared as a second GM. But until then, it's all on me. I'm still catching up with the issues I need to address now that I'm back (my father-in-law is fine, BTW). I'll keep you posted. Edit: If you use an avatar account that you no longer have access to because of the email address, please contact whoever the email address is associated with to see if it's possible to get access (e.g. if NiQil used a different email for Prisonlords than for "NiQil.") If it's not... I think the only solution may be to open a new Prison (and eventually, Guild Hall and COmmunity) in the game of its administrator. Don't do anything drastic until I get an answer.
Guildmaster (CEF) 10-11-07, 04:45 PM	Right - and I believe Prisonlords is still associated with NiQil's email since, when I took over control of the account - they had already disabled the ability to change the email address on the account. Of course, I thought I put this account under the same email as my TelinArtho account, but it doesn't matter much because I still can't activate the TelinArtho account (which is all kinds of frustrating...). Anyway - in other news: The Aquan Retribution Submission for Master DM Competition #37 (Death Squad) Comments are welcome here if you like. I can't make any changes at this point, but I might alter my home copy later. Of course my goal in that submission was to create something with the tools I have - which is to say - just the SRD...
Rauul 10-11-07, 04:45 PM	Yikes. That could be dangerous.. As a DM I suggest nixing the whole were-teranosauris bites your PC and infects him deal. :P Just swollow him whole... spit out a bone or 2.. and dun worry about if he changes or not.. whats left of him will be in a dung heap in a week...
MindWandererB 10-11-07, 05:04 PM	Right - and I believe Prisonlords is still associated with NiQil's email since, when I took over control of the account - they had already disabled the ability to change the email address on the account. Of course, I thought I put this account under the same email as my TelinArtho account, but it doesn't matter much because I still can't activate the TelinArtho account (which is all kinds of frustrating...).Is TelinArtho associated with an email address you have access to? If so, a password reset should do the trick. If not, you'll have to email boards@wizards.com.
Guildmaster (CEF) 10-11-07, 05:16 PM	Is TelinArtho associated with an email address you have access to? If so, a password reset should do the trick. If not, you'll have to email boards@wizards.com. Well - I'm well aware of what should work... I've been dealing with Solice and s/he's been very helpful so far. If that route ends up in a dead end - I'm sure I'll make use of the boards@wizards.com address soon. And yes - TelinArtho is associated with another email account of mine (not the one I originally thought of... but hey I've been here a while too and have a poor memory...)
TelinArtho 10-11-07, 05:30 PM	Yay - I'm back!
Salrantol 10-11-07, 06:09 PM	Yay - I'm back!Yay! I should warn you that Guildmaster (CEF) was pretending to be you while you were gone.
Rauul 10-11-07, 06:29 PM	Yay! I should warn you that Guildmaster (CEF) was pretending to be you while you were gone. yea that holy guildmaster was pretending to be you... we knew it wasn't thou.. your to evil to be that guy :rofl: :rofl:
Vathelokai 10-11-07, 06:31 PM	Finally back myself. Found out I had an old account or two under my name. Will have to get a hold of Sindorin to get the last one.
Vathelokai 10-11-07, 11:55 PM	Looks like the migration log in page thingy is back up and running.... if anyone's lurking around waiting to get their log-in fixed.
Callix 10-12-07, 08:54 AM	I was looking at the Plant domain, and thought that it was pretty nifty. The Rebuke/Control Plants thing particularly spoke to me, but the Phantom Fungus is the only plant listed on the Minimum ECL table for allies. Just wondering what other things would be like. The Violet Fungus and Assasin Vine seem particularly interesting for most fights, while an Udoroot would be an unusual pet at high levels, particularly with Plant and Travel and a wand of Fly. Shambling Mounds are also good, especially with a source of electric damage (Custom item: Cattle Prod of Shock: Lesser orb of Electricity at will, or maybe just a psion cohort with Energy Missile (electric) also tareting the shambler). Also, what do people think about the plant domain spells? Entangle, Barkskin and Wall of Thorns are all good additions to the class list IMO.
lonewolf 10-12-07, 09:13 AM	@Callix: you can look at MWBs Kervan Shenerath. He is a lvl10 Cleric with Magic/Plant domains. Although he doesnt use rebuke plants...
hogarth 10-12-07, 09:42 AM	The reason Phantom Fungus is the only plant listed in that ECL table is because it's the only one you can get via Handle Animal (the only plant with 1-2 int). Most of the Plant creatures are too slow to be very good, and the better ones like the Shambling Mound have too many hit dice to control with the rebuke/control ability (you'd need to be level 16 to control a Shambling Mound). I was looking at the Plant domain, and thought that it was pretty nifty. The Rebuke/Control Plants thing particularly spoke to me, but the Phantom Fungus is the only plant listed on the Minimum ECL table for allies. Just wondering what other things would be like. The Violet Fungus and Assasin Vine seem particularly interesting for most fights, while an Udoroot would be an unusual pet at high levels, particularly with Plant and Travel and a wand of Fly. Shambling Mounds are also good, especially with a source of electric damage (Custom item: Cattle Prod of Shock: Lesser orb of Electricity at will, or maybe just a psion cohort with Energy Missile (electric) also tareting the shambler). Also, what do people think about the plant domain spells? Entangle, Barkskin and Wall of Thorns are all good additions to the class list IMO.
Rauul 10-12-07, 10:47 AM	@Callix: you can look at MWBs Kervan Shenerath. He is a lvl10 Cleric with Magic/Plant domains. Although he doesnt use rebuke plants... yea but he blew up Corrupter's skeletons once.....
Rauul 10-12-07, 01:06 PM	can we get NPC spells cast on us midcycle??
hogarth 10-12-07, 01:18 PM	can we get NPC spells cast on us midcycle?? I don't think you can buy (and use) anything mid-cycle, but I was wondering the same thing the other day.
Hirumajoe 10-12-07, 01:24 PM	I don't think you can buy (and use) anything mid-cycle, but I was wondering the same thing the other day. This came up with when the lighting changes went into effect. Some people wanted to get darkvision or continual light cast mid-cycle, but had to get permission in the blackmarket for the change. So, you can't buy spells mid-cycle from NPCs.
Rauul 10-12-07, 01:26 PM	next Question... Blacklight spell used in pitch black lighting.. does this spell allow the caster to see even if they can't see normally??
SauroGrenom 10-12-07, 01:51 PM	next Question... Blacklight spell used in pitch black lighting.. does this spell allow the caster to see even if they can't see normally?? No.
hogarth 10-12-07, 02:00 PM	Here's a highly unlikely question (along the lines of TelinArtho's goblin were-toad): Suppose Balthazar Picsou buys two Mirrors of Mind Switching. He uses one mirror to switch minds with a Bronze Griffon. Then (in Bronze Griffon form) he uses the other mirror to switch minds with an enemy. Then he deactivates the Bronze Griffon by speaking the command word. Whose mind ends up where?
Rauul 10-12-07, 02:17 PM	Does it cost credits to use the mind Domain (under psionics for Clerics)??
SauroGrenom 10-12-07, 02:28 PM	Here's a highly unlikely question (along the lines of TelinArtho's goblin were-toad): Suppose Balthazar Picsou buys two Mirrors of Mind Switching. He uses one mirror to switch minds with a Bronze Griffon. Then (in Bronze Griffon form) he uses the other mirror to switch minds with an enemy. Then he deactivates the Bronze Griffon by speaking the command word. Whose mind ends up where? Not sure... But my take is that when you "end" the duration of the living bronze griffon, then that creature is "killed". Also consider that a bronze griffon in this case is the magic item, and it's probably been "broken" by the mind switch. You took half of the magic item (ie the living mind) and separated it from the other half (living body). If I were DM, I'd say that the magic that allows the command words to control the item won't function unless the item is whole. For example imagin an intelligent magic sword which can use scorching ray 3/day... When this item is sundered in two, it doesn't result in two fragments that can each use scorching ray 3/day... Rather the sword is broken and won't function at all. In this case, you've probably broken your bronze griffon, at least until the power ends.
SauroGrenom 10-12-07, 02:29 PM	Does it cost credits to use the mind Domain (under psionics for Clerics)?? No.
Rauul 10-12-07, 03:20 PM	Your probably wondering why i am asking a lot of Questions... I am redoing, restarting my First Character Rauul Darkstar (also my first Failure) i should have him up for you to look at soon...
TelinArtho 10-12-07, 04:24 PM	Nope - wasn't wondering at all actually. But thanks for the concern. :P
MindWandererB 10-12-07, 04:57 PM	I was looking at the Plant domain, and thought that it was pretty nifty. The Rebuke/Control Plants thing particularly spoke to me, but the Phantom Fungus is the only plant listed on the Minimum ECL table for allies. Just wondering what other things would be like. The Violet Fungus and Assasin Vine seem particularly interesting for most fights, while an Udoroot would be an unusual pet at high levels, particularly with Plant and Travel and a wand of Fly. Shambling Mounds are also good, especially with a source of electric damage (Custom item: Cattle Prod of Shock: Lesser orb of Electricity at will, or maybe just a psion cohort with Energy Missile (electric) also tareting the shambler). Also, what do people think about the plant domain spells? Entangle, Barkskin and Wall of Thorns are all good additions to the class list IMO.:OMG! :doh: :banghead: I completely overlooked that use of the Plant domain! It originally caught my attention because the Barkskin adds nicely to Kervan's uber-AC buffing ability (without using the necklace slot). To the SRD! Oh, and I think I'll be looking for a questlord next week, to acquire whatever it is I decide on. The Shambling Mound is looking pretty good....
Rauul 10-12-07, 05:08 PM	Nope - wasn't wondering at all actually. But thanks for the concern. :P *Kicks Telin*
TelinArtho 10-12-07, 05:08 PM	Methinks MWB has been tied up too long as a GM... Welcome back to the world of controlling plants Kervan... *Kicks Telin* Ow. Was that really necessary? I get enough kicks from my kids...
Rauul 10-12-07, 05:11 PM	Methinks MWB has been tied up too long as a GM... Welcome back to the world of controlling plants Kervan... Ow. Was that really necessary? I get enough kicks from my kids... nope.. but if you rather i could feed them each 1lbs of chocolate and send them home to you... with noisy toys :)
MindWandererB 10-12-07, 05:27 PM	Methinks MWB has been tied up too long as a GM... Welcome back to the world of controlling plants Kervan...Thanks for giving me a way out, but I don't deserve it. I've been running Kervan for a very long time now, and he could have been chumming it up with a phantom fungus maybe even before I was GM (level 7? Maybe Kervan was there by then).
TelinArtho 10-12-07, 05:29 PM	To quote my sister-in-law - my "kids are broken." When asked what they wanted for a snack when they were at her house, they asked for yogurt, and failing that - fruit. Candy is fourth on the list after raisins of all things... As to the noisy toys... bring it on. Noisy toys are not the issue - its the toys that require constant fiddling with that are - toy pianos with unsecured stands, toys that have pieces that occasionally fall off, etc.
whitebaron 10-12-07, 05:47 PM	yeah your kids are really broken. ;) as for the noisy toys: i'Ve got an alltime favorite. the tomy duckling-horde (http://www.tomy.de/_image/JXHFLQQB.jpg) on a string. its three ducklings on wheels and when you pull them behind you, they constantly go like "qua qua qua qua qua qua qua qua qua qua qua qua quak quak" (and repeat) but if your kids can ask for yoghurt. they're way to old for this stuff. one should rather buy them a base drum for annoying their dad. ;)
Rauul 10-12-07, 05:48 PM	As to the noisy toys... bring it on. Noisy toys are not the issue - its the toys that require constant fiddling with that are - toy pianos with unsecured stands, toys that have pieces that occasionally fall off, etc. I got my nephew... a Full drum set for his 5th birthday... that was 17 years ago and i still haven't heard the end of it... Got my niece a Sax for her 8th birthday during the same year... I am NOT allowed to buy them anything to this date unless they can take it home with them...
Rauul 10-12-07, 05:50 PM	Ok gimme some feedback on the Rauul Darkstar Rebuild... it can be seen here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14062148&postcount=1243).. At least now i know how powerful the magic Domain is..
Hirumajoe 10-12-07, 06:31 PM	Shambling Mounds are also good, especially with a source of electric damage (Custom item: Cattle Prod of Shock: Lesser orb of Electricity at will, or maybe just a psion cohort with Energy Missile (electric) also tareting the shambler). What would the rules be on pre-buffing the use of that Cattle Prod of Shock? Considering the extra con only fades at the rate of 1 per hour and you can add 360d4 Con per hour. Also, would the extra Con carry over from fight to fight? Are you allowed to keep your opponent unconscious (technically not defeated), and just keep shocking your pet mound until your opponent wakes up or your arm gets tired of prodding the plant? Just some things to consider. :) Also, how about Treants as commanded creatures and pre-buffing their Animate Trees ability. Or would the extra trees count against your CR limit?
MindWandererB 10-12-07, 07:38 PM	What would the rules be on pre-buffing the use of that Cattle Prod of Shock? Considering the extra con only fades at the rate of 1 per hour and you can add 360d4 Con per hour. Also, would the extra Con carry over from fight to fight? Are you allowed to keep your opponent unconscious (technically not defeated), and just keep shocking your pet mound until your opponent wakes up or your arm gets tired of prodding the plant?Nerf stick! <whack> That's technically true, but no way no how am I allowing that. Shamblers may be deserving of a special house rule (and I'm amazed no one's done it before). Also, how about Treants as commanded creatures and pre-buffing their Animate Trees ability. Or would the extra trees count against your CR limit?Yeah, they'd count. Only class allies don't. On the other hand, you could be a treant and do it, or you could do it if you had enough CA left over.
TelinArtho 10-12-07, 07:42 PM	I've actually got some drums in my past and it is an aspect of me that I miss... so I don't think that would be an issue. In fact - most anything musical is good by me (my kids each have a recorder, xylophone and a couple of other random hand instruments).
hogarth 10-12-07, 08:57 PM	Nerf stick! <whack> That's technically true, but no way no how am I allowing that. Shamblers may be deserving of a special house rule (and I'm amazed no one's done it before). In my opinion, temporary Con points don't stack any more than temporary hp do. So the best a Shambling Mound could get is +4 Con. But that's just my opinion.
MindWandererB 10-12-07, 09:14 PM	In my opinion, temporary Con points don't stack any more than temporary hp do. So the best a Shambling Mound could get is +4 Con. But that's just my opinion. That's certainly one approach. The language, "temporarily grants it 1d4 points of Constitution," doesn't really refer to any game term. But comparing it to temp HP sounds reasonable, and since it would all be from the same source (electricity) it wouldn't stack.
hogarth 10-12-07, 09:20 PM	That's certainly one approach. The language, "temporarily grants it 1d4 points of Constitution," doesn't really refer to any game term. But comparing it to temp HP sounds reasonable, and since it would all be from the same source (electricity) it wouldn't stack. I remember a similar case came up when I was running one of Jonathon Raven Gravebound's fights -- I didn't think that the temporary HP gained by using energy drain would stack.
Vathelokai 10-12-07, 10:09 PM	I've actually got some drums in my past and it is an aspect of me that I miss... so I don't think that would be an issue. In fact - most anything musical is good by me (my kids each have a recorder, xylophone and a couple of other random hand instruments). I've got a beat-up upright piano that my daughter loves to bang on. I even figured out how to play the teletubies theme for her.:D She's terrified of accordians though. Go figure.
Vathelokai 10-12-07, 10:36 PM	Ok gimme some feedback on the Rauul Darkstar Rebuild... it can be seen here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14062148&postcount=1243).. At least now i know how powerful the magic Domain is.. Rp note: The Arcane Order has a cleric of Vecna holding services in Valhamya (see Jur the Mad in the retired section of the roster). Going mystic thurge, or do you just like skill points? It's a good idea to have a light backup melee weapon. The un-disarmable spiked gauntlets are convenient. If your morning star is CDG only, consider changing to extra-large warhammer or regular greataxe. Investigator feat? Is that 3 ranks in search cross class? It's not marked. Since you have pearls of power, I'd suggest memorizing 3 different 1st lv spells. Most of your scrolls have very short durations. I recommend CL2s. General: It's tough being a cleric at low levels. It might be worthwhile to pick up some light armor for the short term; one less buff is always good. A wand of exped retreat, or a mount, or any other mobility thing will help a lot; even using a scroll of mount, you can use the horse to get where you need to be quick and then dismiss it. You have no healing; is that intentional? Basicly, you have a good well rounded cleric. Those work well in table top, but in the arena you'll have trouble fighting specialists (high DC casters, super-trippers, etc.).
Rauul 10-12-07, 11:10 PM	Rp note: The Arcane Order has a cleric of Vecna holding services in Valhamya (see Jur the Mad in the retired section of the roster). Going mystic thurge, or do you just like skill points? It's a good idea to have a light backup melee weapon. The un-disarmable spiked gauntlets are convenient. If your morning star is CDG only, consider changing to extra-large warhammer or regular greataxe. Investigator feat? Is that 3 ranks in search cross class? It's not marked. Since you have pearls of power, I'd suggest memorizing 3 different 1st lv spells. Most of your scrolls have very short durations. I recommend CL2s. General: It's tough being a cleric at low levels. It might be worthwhile to pick up some light armor for the short term; one less buff is always good. A wand of exped retreat, or a mount, or any other mobility thing will help a lot; even using a scroll of mount, you can use the horse to get where you need to be quick and then dismiss it. You have no healing; is that intentional? Basicly, you have a good well rounded cleric. Those work well in table top, but in the arena you'll have trouble fighting specialists (high DC casters, super-trippers, etc.). Thanks for the Input.. Yea i am not gonna activate him till i get the 10 credits to make him a Cloistered Cleric... and yes going Mystic Theurge, hopefully around level 7.. So i don't want to get armor for that reason.. RP: I know about Jur, The Mad Magician... always had a problem with him being Chaotic good cleric of vecna... yea i need to touch it up some... things like healing ect..
Turanson 10-13-07, 08:57 AM	After looking around for some time, I've got a question where do I find the equations, for the price on scrolls, potions ect. of higher CL than their minimum CL, like a sheild spell with a CL of 2 Thanks in advance
hogarth 10-13-07, 09:16 AM	After looking around for some time, I've got a question where do I find the equations, for the price on scrolls, potions ect. of higher CL than their minimum CL, like a sheild spell with a CL of 2 Thanks in advance The price for a scroll/power stone is (caster level) x (spell level) x 25. The price for a potion/psionic tattoo* is (caster level) x (spell level) x 50. *Psionic tattoos of powers with range "Personal" cost double.
Vathelokai 10-13-07, 09:25 AM	After looking around for some time, I've got a question where do I find the equations, for the price on scrolls, potions ect. of higher CL than their minimum CL, like a sheild spell with a CL of 2 Thanks in advance Easiest place to find them is under the feat description. Can also find them in the Magic or Psionic sections, under creating items.
whitebaron 10-13-07, 10:04 AM	The price for a scroll/power stone is (caster level) x (spell level) x 25. The price for a potion/psionic tattoo* is (caster level) x (spell level) x 50. *Psionic tattoos of powers with range "Personal" cost double. please note that augmenting also incurs a higher cost(coco house rule). for every 2 pp spent to augment the power, you raise the cost as if the power was one level higher. e.g. powerstone of vigorA, [ML3] = 3 (ml) * 2(adjusted powerlevel) * 25 = 150 instead of the expected 75. but it gives 15 hp for 30 rounds. ;) @ml5A: 15*25 = 375gp, 25hp for 50 rounds.
Abyssal Stalker 10-13-07, 12:07 PM	I remember a similar case came up when I was running one of Jonathon Raven Gravebound's fights -- I didn't think that the temporary HP gained by using energy drain would stack. You were correct. Energy drain temporary hp are adressed in the SRD and it says they don't stack.
Rauul 10-13-07, 08:12 PM	Question.. When fighting a Psion in a miniquest (NPC) isn't it limited to the 1/3 of his pps rule same as players are.. Seriously fighting someone with 53pps vs a Player who can use 18 is very restricted.. Especially considering we can no longer do miniquests out of cycle and use all our sls/pps
hogarth 10-13-07, 08:20 PM	Question.. When fighting a Psion in a miniquest (NPC) isn't it limited to the 1/3 of his pps rule same as players are.. Seriously fighting someone with 53pps vs a Player who can use 18 is very restricted.. Especially considering we can no longer do miniquests out of cycle and use all our sls/pps NPC casters/manifesters can use everything they have. It's pretty harsh all right.
Nurlithion 10-14-07, 08:08 AM	Hey everyone, could someone please look over my new character Ssassetar to see if I made any mistakes? Thanks in advance.
Vathelokai 10-14-07, 11:22 AM	Hey everyone, could someone please look over my new character Ssassetar to see if I made any mistakes? Thanks in advance. Probably only need to link each thing once (eg. humanoid is linked throughout the skills). Looks good. You going for a prestige class with those wizard levels, or planning to boost the int later? Easier to give feedback if I know where you're going with the character.
Nurlithion 10-14-07, 01:00 PM	Well, I'm thinking of getting a level of ranger to boost stealth and BAB and get some proficiencies, then going for 2 levels of Wizard to get some buffs(I've got this thing with which I can't make a character without at least a couple levels of wizard :P). Then I'll be going to get Horizon Walker at least up to 6 for Dimension Door, maybe 7 for Tremorsense, and then get something else, which I haven't decided yet mainly because I don't plan on getting there anytime soon. I may yet alter the build to be an Eldritch Knight instead, but that's unlikely.
Vathelokai 10-14-07, 02:05 PM	3 lizardman, 7 horizon walker, 1 ranger, 1 wizard, and something.... Yeah, the 5 lv of wizard needed for E-knight is rough. With a build for horizon walker, you wouldn't get to E-knight until very high ecl anyway. Note, ranger doesn't get endurance as a bonus feat until lv3 (prereq for horizon walker). If you have some credits down the road, battle sorcerer would work well here; less spells, but you can cast in light armor like a bard. I'd get either 1 lv of caster, or take the 5 for eldritch knight. Nothing much to be gained from 2 lvs (you can just pick up pearls of power instead). I suppose you could get 3 with craft wondrous item, but 5 seems better for that route (craft boots of haste and such later). Going with 3 lizard, 1 wizard, 3 ranger, 7 horizon... I'd just max out horizon walker and throw in levels of fighter whenever you qualify for another feat you want.
Nurlithion 10-14-07, 02:08 PM	I wouldn't be taking 3 ranger, just 1, and I'd take Endurance as a normal feat. The ranger level is just to get BAB, stealth, and weapon proficiencies. I'm taking 2 levels of wizard because that gives me another +1 to will and rounds out the BAB.
whitebaron 10-14-07, 03:40 PM	hmm, seems like vath is restarting many of his chars. - good luck to your remakes. :)
Vathelokai 10-14-07, 03:43 PM	Indeed... Remnant Kii Tweak II Been working on these for a couple months, on and off. Feedback appreciated. I'll put in my 2 cents when my daughter gets another nap.
Luni 10-14-07, 06:23 PM	Hey everybody. Does anyone remember me? I was thinking of coming back. :)
Erithmu 10-14-07, 06:30 PM	Hey everybody. Does anyone remember me? I was thinking of coming back. :)Welcome ... back? Well maybe that is preemptive. but hello again none the less
Rauul 10-14-07, 06:49 PM	Hey everybody. Does anyone remember me? I was thinking of coming back. :) Welcome back Looking at your old characters it looks like you have some editing to do.. with the rule chances..
Vathelokai 10-14-07, 06:53 PM	Hey everybody. Does anyone remember me? I was thinking of coming back. :) Luni! Where'd you go? Sudden disappearance had me worried. For those of you that don't remember, Luni is one of our ex-elders.
Luni 10-14-07, 06:55 PM	Luni! [size=1]Where'd you go? Sudden disappearance had me worried.[/color] I'm not even sure why I quit anymore. I think I was trying to do too much here, and it was causing me too much stress. @Rauul: I'd probably just create new characters most likely. :)
Rauul 10-14-07, 06:56 PM	Gortek decided to not go on a miniquest.. Loosing a miniquest would not advance him.. loosing an arena will.. not worth taking the chance..
Rauul 10-14-07, 06:58 PM	I'm not even sure why I quit anymore. I think I was trying to do too much here, and it was causing me too much stress. @Rauul: I'd probably just create new characters most likely. :) ohhhh new Ecl 3's is always welcome.. but i do like your were-eagle.. :)
TelinArtho 10-14-07, 07:05 PM	Heya Luni - and yes I certainly remember you. Welcome back if that is what you intend to do - hello if you don't. /d
Vathelokai 10-14-07, 07:12 PM	Indeed... Remnant Kii Tweak II Been working on these for a couple months, on and off. Feedback appreciated. I'll put in my 2 cents when my daughter gets another nap. Alrighty... nap never happened. But here we go anyway. Tweak was ment to be a super fast spring attack monk type. Looking over it, I was never quite happy with monk. The extra attack is nice, but the extra speed doesn't really stack. After the discussion about the renaisance weapons, I started thinking about making rapid fire work for guns, then for hand crossbows, then for thrown weapons. Mobility seemed like a problem for a thowing build, so I rearranged Tweak abit for shot on the run and paragon/fighter classes instead of monk. I like it. Denshi never really got off the ground. He was trying to be an everything character, but it never really worked. Also rules changes and such didn't work in his favor. Third, he was origionally intended to craft constructs. With the rule that you cannot hire npcs to help you craft, and the ally rules, he had no chance of ever really making one. So I split him in two; one Kii is a thurge that will get craft construct way later, and follow Denshi's arcane mystic persona, and Remnant is all the bad level adjustment, arcane blaster/fighter stuff.
Luni 10-14-07, 07:35 PM	Do you guys have a handy link to these rules changes? I can't seem to find them in a quick look.
Erithmu 10-14-07, 07:51 PM	Luni: I would look here at the 3 Fight cycle. It is probably one of the major adjustments that you have to get used to. The other would be the Expendable Cap. Other than that we have added new skills stuff. You can probably skim the rules Table of Contents and get an idea for what has changed. Also ... Allies (of the HA and Diplomacy) have changed (Diplomacy options don't exist anymore) Also we have a few new environmental things going on (Lighting, new map locations) Take some time and maybe watch a week while you are reorienting, you'll probably pick up most of the stuff pretty quickly.
Vathelokai 10-14-07, 08:01 PM	Anyone know where the quickstart guides went? They explain and link most of that stuff, if I remember right.
Erithmu 10-14-07, 08:07 PM	They are in the characters thread ... posts 11 and 12.
SauroGrenom 10-14-07, 08:07 PM	Hi Luni, Good to see your face again. You know,... There's been a recent resurgence of members whom we thought were permanently gone. Major new rules are things like what Rith mentioned. MWB is running the show now instead of Cat. I think you were around for the guilds, and that's now on pause. We're trying to put together some other stuff for people to do outside of the arena. Aside from that the allies rules are different, some minor changes to the way you earn credits... Now maps in battles aren't worth credits, and auditing is worth more. The court thread has a few posts at the beginning with all the important rulings on minor details. We house ruled a thing where move silently can be used to attack quietly as well. And there's a few new "skill packages" that you can use. Generally we're doing the same stuff, just a few changes here and there.
Luni 10-14-07, 08:13 PM	Thanks for the links. Nice to see all you old guys again. What happened to Cat? I like the 3FC system and expendables cap. I think I'll go create a simple level 3 for next week, then I'll see if MWb would let me un-retire a couple of my characters. :)
TelinArtho 10-14-07, 08:22 PM	Cat's a long story - and I am sorry to say I was involved with his leaving. During the Iron Man Tournament - he and I were paired up. The fight was run and he pulled a point on his tactics that seemed to not be run correctly. I disagreed with his interpretation, the pitlord (Tellish of Ket) disagreed as well. Some words were exchanged and the result is that he left. I am sad to have been involved - but that's the watered down version. I'm sure someone could provide links if needed,
Luni 10-14-07, 08:37 PM	Cat's a long story - and I am sorry to say I was involved with his leaving. During the Iron Man Tournament - he and I were paired up. The fight was run and he pulled a point on his tactics that seemed to not be run correctly. I disagreed with his interpretation, the pitlord (Tellish of Ket) disagreed as well. Some words were exchanged and the result is that he left. I am sad to have been involved - but that's the watered down version. I'm sure someone could provide links if needed, Links aren't necessary. What happened doesn't really surprise me, knowing Cat and all.
SauroGrenom 10-14-07, 08:43 PM	Telin's got the jist of why Cat left. I think that Tellish and Cat both butted heads on that one. The details are that Cat's tactics involved getting a surprise round (new skill package thing) then "basing" his opponent and sundering the holy symbol. Cat won initiative and a surprise round, and the griffon had a huge movement speed, so he expected to win by sundering the symbol before his opponent could do a thing. Tellish made a mistake on his first run, and used the wrong movement speed for Cat's mount, so Telin's character had 2 or 3 rounds to cast while Cat's guy moved into melee. Cat expected to win since his character could have moved to sunder the holy symbol before Telin's character could act. Cat was overly harsh in his criticism, and Tellish acted rather childishly on the rerun. When the rerun was done, he used the letter of Cat's tactics and based the opponent, and the adamantine reach weapon couldn't be used to sunder... so the natural attacks failed to destroy the holy symbol and Cat's character went down. Note that in the first run, Tellish had Cat's characters stopping at 5' distance so they could use the adamantine weapon, but it took 2 or 3 rounds to get into melee and it was too late since a bunch of summoned creatures were already in play and a bunch of spells had been cast. Tellish said he was the pitlord, and he wasn't going to edit the fight again... Cat said people had been picking on him for a while (he was right about that), and they had accused him of using his authority to his advantage in the arena, and this was the last straw... he wasn't having any fun, so he bailed. All around a bad turn of events... Two hard headed people refusing to back down, and we haven't seen either of them since.
Vathelokai 10-14-07, 08:47 PM	Telish actually signed up for another army tour (though I'm not sure where the Canadian army gets sent to these days).
Eamane 10-14-07, 10:06 PM	Hey Luni, welcome back. At the risk of parroting those before me; always good to have old faces come back. Alot of the more 'interesting' things is pretty much limited to ECL 5+ at the moment, like lighting changes (Now we can fight in the dark, wee) and such. EDIT to avoid double-post: @Vathelokai I like the new builds, though my lack of experience with arcane casters limits me to commenting on Tweak II (Eamane is still going through the paces of novice theurge-dom and I've never done a sorcerer in 3.5). Any particular reason you tucked your feats away into an sblock? As an opponent/pitlord, the feats sections is one of the most important things to check before writing tactics/running a fight. I think having it outside of the sblock (right before or right after) is an easier and more logical way to go about things, from a design and usage point of view. I'm assuming weight concerns lead to using darts > spears, but what about Throwing Axes? Fairly light, do more damage than darts. For a throwing build, an investment in Craft: Weapons would likely net huge long-term savings, since you can freely shift your selection of weapons to whatever is appropriate at your ECL without monetary loss (until you start paying to get some of them enchanted anyways). I'd probably go with 12 strength over 12 con for your build as well. You are looking at semi/full BAB classes with high-end HD, the extra damage (winning your fights) is likely going to be more important than the extra hp per level (not losing your fights). You look to be going for the outmaneuver package, and having a high(er) strength really helps out there. Studded leather? Really? Just 75 more gp for a chain shirt and +1 ac. You can downshift to s.leather (or upgrade to mithril chain) after you get the gloves of dexterity that I'm guessing you'll be buying sometime soon. UPD vs UMD: Well, you are running a theurge and a sorcerer... might as well go UPD to have some variety for your characters. That'd be my gut instinct anyways. I'm looking at retiring Alacrity and replacing him with my Platemail wearing Dwarven Monk, but a part of your build caught my eye; any thoughts on the feasibility of metal Bolas? Having a set of (mw) bolas would come in handy.
McJarvis 10-15-07, 02:27 PM	How do we deal with leadership cohort xp here? Same way the rules say we should, or is the cohort just always assumed to have the proper level in relation to the owner?
Eamane 10-15-07, 02:30 PM	How do we deal with leadership cohort xp here? Same way the rules say we should, or is the cohort just always assumed to have the proper level in relation to the owner? Always assumed to have the proper level in relation to the owner.
McJarvis 10-15-07, 02:34 PM	Always assumed to have the proper level in relation to the owner. As did I- but now I'm considering a case where I won't be able to boost my leadership score until after I assume the cohort, so it'll have to jump 2 levels while I progress 1 level. With no rules in our house rules, I suppose it's granted that cohorts track their own xp here...
hogarth 10-15-07, 02:39 PM	As did I- but now I'm considering a case where I won't be able to boost my leadership score until after I assume the cohort, so it'll have to jump 2 levels while I progress 1 level. With no rules in our house rules, I suppose it's granted that cohorts track their own xp here... Huh? This is explained clearly in the Rules of Gladius: Leadership Allies (Cohorts): The Leadership feat is one of the most common ways to get a cohort. You need to go on a quest to find your Leadership cohort. Note that there are two important differences between Leadership cohorts in the Core Coliseum and the rules written down in the PHB. Firstly, Leadership cohorts do not keep track of XP, and do not use the method of advancement outlined in the PHB. Instead, they are always at the maximum level allowed by your Leadership score (see DMG,p106). For example, if your Leadership score is 17, your cohort would be level 12. You may have your cohort be lower in level than what would be allowed by your Leadership score, if you like; however, you cannot "regress" your cohort in levels. If, for example, your cohort was level 10 at one point, then he may never drop below level 10 from then on. If your Leadership score drops for some reason, and is no longer sufficient for your cohort, then your cohort will not help you in any way until you get your Leadership score back up again. Secondly, Leadership cohorts, like most other cohorts, require a share of your XP and gold (see below). All leadership allies use the 25 pt-buy method to determine ability scores. Leadership Modifiers: Special circumstances may modify your Leadership score (DMG,p106/107). If you have a familiar, a special mount, or an animal companion (all from a class feature), your leadership score drops by 2. If you recruit a cohort of different alignment, your leadership score drops by 1. If you caused the death of your cohort (outside the Nimbus only), your leadership score permanently drops by 1 per deceased cohort. Other modifiers, like Reputation or Leader behaviour do not apply yet. However, sooner or later we will introduce Special Events and Reputation of Characters which may influence your leadership score further.
McJarvis 10-15-07, 02:42 PM	Huh? This is explained clearly in the Rules of Gladius: Somehow my idea of "clearly" isn't "buried inside a page or two of reading" All the same- thanks!
MindWandererB 10-15-07, 02:46 PM	I wouldn't be taking 3 ranger, just 1, and I'd take Endurance as a normal feat. The ranger level is just to get BAB, stealth, and weapon proficiencies. I'm taking 2 levels of wizard because that gives me another +1 to will and rounds out the BAB.Consider taking a level or two of Cleric with the Magic domain instead of Wizard. More HP, more spells, better saves, Turn Undead (for whatever that's worth), and a second domain granted power.How do we deal with leadership cohort xp here? Same way the rules say we should, or is the cohort just always assumed to have the proper level in relation to the owner?Cohorts are automatically at, basically, whatever level you want. The only restriction is that you can never lower their level (e.g. if a level 7 character has a level 5 cohort, and they want to add another ally to your team, they can't lower their level to allow it. But you could wait a few levels, and voluntarily not level the cohort up). And yes, this means that you can abuse non-favored multiclassing. @Luni: Wow, nice to see you back! When you unexpectedly left, I was only your backup as Guildmaster (TLT); since then I've moved up through Guildlords, Elder, and now GM. Wow. To think, if you'd stuck around, things may have been totally different. Other have summed up what you need to know pretty well. The Quickstart Guide (I and II) and the beginning of the Council thread are the things I've put up to help; the 3FC rules and expendable cap are the other things you'll have to look up on your own. I think the Courtroom of Gladius postdates your departure, as well; the most recent Court Decisons are there. If you want to re-activate any of your old characters, that should be fine; I think I have all the old links (in addition to what's in the graveyard, I have the links and records for Ariel the Fallen, Karisia, Lady Tria, Lunoria, Nac'ti, and Niva). They'll all probably need some heavy updating to get up to current specs; whatever changes you need to make, post 'em in the Training Hall. Remember that if you want to change anything in response to a rule change--if you want to take advantage of some of the new Skill Packages (oh yeah, look those up, too), need to refund any expendables over the cap, or had any of your old options nerfed, you can change any of those things freely.
hogarth 10-15-07, 02:48 PM	Somehow my idea of "clearly" isn't "buried inside a page or two of reading" I admit, it's cleverly hidden under the heading "Leadership Cohorts". It would take the offspring of Mycroft Holmes and Brainiac-5 to figure that one out. :P
McJarvis 10-15-07, 03:02 PM	I admit, it's cleverly hidden under the heading "Leadership Cohorts". It would take the offspring of Mycroft Holmes and Brainiac-5 to figure that one out. :P The leadership section isn't exactly streamlined. I'm actually looking at the class-oriented cohort options available to me, so I ended up having to read the entire section. Anywho, thanks again for answering the question, all sly and witty comments aside. ;)
Eamane 10-15-07, 03:18 PM	Mmm. Mycroft. Forever inventing things that put the entire world in danger of Nazi take-over. Okay, so just once. Still, how many times have you invented something that put the world in danger of Nazi take-over, eh? Random Tangent: Retired Alacrity. But weep not for the forlorn speedster, for he is replaced by an even stranger menace. A dwarf... with a battleaxe! In plate-mail! With two levels of monk! Yes, that's right, my platemail wearing battlerager dwarven ex-monk is ready, here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13332088). (Astute observers will notice that he has taken Alacrity's place. Haha!)
Rauul 10-15-07, 03:38 PM	Yes, that's right, my platemail wearing battlerager dwarven ex-monk is ready, here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13332088). (Astute observers will notice that he has taken Alacrity's place. Haha!) Well just looking at him quick.. your hps are off.. (should be 25) only noticed cause i compared him to Gortek..
MindWandererB 10-15-07, 04:06 PM	Yes, that's right, my platemail wearing battlerager dwarven ex-monk is ready, here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13332088). (Astute observers will notice that he has taken Alacrity's place. Haha!)Eep! Next time, please don't delete your old characters. I use them for recordkeeping occasionally. Cat gave NiQil special dispensation to do this because he retires more characters than anyone--I have over 50 characters of his in my log, and that's not counting the graveyard--but no one else should be doing this. Just make a new post next time, please.
SauroGrenom 10-15-07, 05:38 PM	Eep! Next time, please don't delete your old characters. I use them for recordkeeping occasionally. Cat gave NiQil special dispensation to do this because he retires more characters than anyone--I have over 50 characters of his in my log, and that's not counting the graveyard--but no one else should be doing this. Just make a new post next time, please. Speaking of which, our characters thread is getting way long... we should consider starting a new one when we transition over to E4.
McJarvis 10-15-07, 05:48 PM	Speaking of which, our characters thread is getting way long... we should consider starting a new one when we transition over to E4. I'm sure that'll be among the many changes. Note that since character ECL & skill checks are so integrated into our current guild system that we're looking at a major overhaul. [I'm focusing on the 30 level-range since that's the primary change I've seen that will disrupt our operations.] Might even want some volunteers to start working on at least making a list of changes that may have to be made....
McJarvis 10-15-07, 06:02 PM	Interesting debate popped up in my head- There is no such thing as an "enhancement" bonus to hp for obvious reasons- it wouldn't make sense. So instead we have "temporary hp" which can not overlap, and all is well in the world. Then I started thinking about ability scores. How can you "damage" an enhancement bonus? You really can't. So if I cast "Eagles Splendor" on myself, doesn't the spell effectively protect me from being ego-whipped to death? My CHA score can't drop below 0[per the rules], and at 0 points of charisma, I would have a "score" of 4 b/c of the enhancement bonus. At least, until the spell got dispelled.
whitebaron 10-15-07, 06:06 PM	i don't think it would lead to a good result to start so early. with only lots of rumors, but bits of actual facts present, every assumption you take is likely to be wronged. the main workforce would have to be done shortly before or after the release. @characters: well, it wouldn't make sense to mix old and new editions anyway. @eagle's splendor: raw, you might be right. rai, its totally clear that your enhancement bonus can be ego whipped as well.
Rauul 10-15-07, 06:09 PM	Speaking of which, our characters thread is getting way long... we should consider starting a new one when we transition over to E4. Well considering the core for 4e won't be out till JUST before Gen-Con next August... we have a long time to plan and when the First book comes out.. I know Mac and Mal will have it in their hands.. May have to Do a 4e beta group.. (all new characters, trying the new rules) problem is going to be Pitlords... Cause noone knows when thier SRD will be updated.. so unless you have the books you can't pitlord 4e fights.. Btw the New e-books are suppost to be updated with erratas as needed.. (u get an e-book with a real book)
McJarvis 10-15-07, 06:19 PM	@eagle's splendor: raw, you might be right. rai, its totally clear that your enhancement bonus can be ego whipped as well. I rarely consider the difference between Rules-as-Wrung-Out and Rules-as-Interpreted to matter too much ;) I suppose by RAW once your "CHA" score hits 0 you're knocked out- regardless of whatever enhancement boni you have on it. It's an interesting chain of thought, nonetheless. I'd love to know if there's a solid answer to it.
Vathelokai 10-15-07, 06:49 PM	This discussion took place once using cloak of charisma. Can you ego whip someone to coma if they are wearing a cloak? Can you put a cloak on someone in a coma to wake them up? Since the stats never go below zero, could you just have an ally ready to take your cloak off and put it back on every time you go into a coma? The conclusion was that you can do stat dmg to the enhancement bonuses, since they are treated as part of you normal stat. I cannot remember the rules reference, but there was something vague (in the magic overview I think) about how enhancement bonuses to stats work. Nothing conclusive or ruled on; merely a thought experiment so far.
Rauul 10-15-07, 07:23 PM	This Deep Crystal amulet protects the wearer from detect your presence by means of touchsight, blindsense, blindsight, scent, or tremorsense just as a Cloud mind Power does does. If a power is attempted against the wearer, the manifester of the power must succeed on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against a DC of 19 (as if the caster had cast Cloud mind on himself). Moderate telepathy; ML 8th; Craft Universal Item, Cloud mind; Manifester's Int must be 24; Price 24,000 gp. 5 credits or 15 credits.. Am wondering what the Credit cost would be for this item.. it is based off the Amulet of of Proof against Detection and Location, using Cloud mind instead of Nondetection.. Works just like cloudmind.. if touchsight, blindsense, blindsight, scent, or tremorsense is used on them.. makes them make a dc 19 will save to see them with the power
Callix 10-15-07, 08:34 PM	This Deep Crystal amulet protects the wearer from detect your presence by means of touchsight, blindsense, blindsight, scent, or tremorsense just as a Cloud mind Power does does. If a power is attempted against the wearer, the manifester of the power must succeed on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against a DC of 19 (as if the caster had cast Cloud mind on himself). Moderate telepathy; ML 8th; Craft Universal Item, Cloud mind; Manifester's Int must be 24; Price 24,000 gp. 5 credits or 15 credits.. Am wondering what the Credit cost would be for this item.. it is based off the Amulet of of Proof against Detection and Location, using Cloud mind instead of Nondetection.. Works just like cloudmind.. if touchsight, blindsense, blindsight, scent, or tremorsense is used on them.. makes them make a dc 19 will save to see them with the power That's much stronger than Cloud Mind. It's more like Mass Cloud Mind (a 6th level power), and even then it's "always on". Regardless, it's going to have a higher GP cost and ML. Continuous item of 6th level psion/wilder power = 6*11*2000=132,000 gp.
Rauul 10-15-07, 09:01 PM	That's much stronger than Cloud Mind. It's more like Mass Cloud Mind (a 6th level power), and even then it's "always on". Regardless, it's going to have a higher GP cost and ML. Continuous item of 6th level psion/wilder power = 6*11*2000=132,000 gp. I can see we are going to disagree with the cost.. the power is No more powerful that the amulet it was originally designed off.. except it makes touchsight make a save to find someone instead of just Beep there they are.. could easily do it waith Bend Reality, 8*15*2000/2=120,000 and have it Duplicate the Slayer power "Cerebral blind" (note the Divided by 2 is because the power it is duplicating is an Always active power) and they don't even get a save... Actually i was thinking of it more like a Crystal Anchor that has a Slot.. that instead of mindlock it hits with a cloud mind (price is even based of the Crystal anchor cost) Now i am not making it Duplicate Cloud mind, it has that effect only if they use the power.. actually I just want it to negate the BROKEN POWER of Touchsight.. hence the reason i asked for the credit cost..
McJarvis 10-15-07, 09:28 PM	Nothing conclusive or ruled on; merely a thought experiment so far. I doubt anything would come of it. A high enough level character could craft six +1 tomes/manuals and get immunity to zeroing stats if it were the case- and there are a long list of other oddities if those boni are non-damageable. Is there an effective shield against ego-whip for psions? Best I could find was the thought shield so far...[or having a large charisma]. Psionic Hole and the wilder's anti-telepathy abilities are useless against dorjes of ego whip, so they are out. edit- erm..psionic hole is out because you're a psion too, but that is besides the point.
Vathelokai 10-15-07, 10:40 PM	Vath's Character Roster I found one of my old accidental blank posts in the character thread, and decided to set up a mini roster for my characters. There just wasn't enough room for it in my sig anymore. I think I've found a layout I like. Just felt like showing off; pretty proud of me-self.
hogarth 10-15-07, 11:04 PM	I doubt anything would come of it. A high enough level character could craft six +1 tomes/manuals and get immunity to zeroing stats if it were the case- and there are a long list of other oddities if those boni are non-damageable. Is there an effective shield against ego-whip for psions? Best I could find was the thought shield so far...[or having a large charisma]. Psionic Hole and the wilder's anti-telepathy abilities are useless against dorjes of ego whip, so they are out. edit- erm..psionic hole is out because you're a psion too, but that is besides the point. Metamorphing/Polymorphing into a Plant (or Undead) creature gives immunity to mind-affecting powers.
MindWandererB 10-16-07, 12:05 AM	Speaking of which, our characters thread is getting way long... we should consider starting a new one when we transition over to E4.Yeah, I know, but since old characters that are reactivated should be moved to the new thread (or else, when the old one is locked or archived, they'll be lost), I kinda need my mod powers back first. Hopefully they'll be restored when the VCM discussion is over.I'm sure that'll be among the many changes. Note that since character ECL & skill checks are so integrated into our current guild system that we're looking at a major overhaul. Might even want some volunteers to start working on at least making a list of changes that may have to be made....Rather than changes to the existing rules, I think we're going to need a whole new set. Obviously we can learn from this experience, but I think it might be easier to start with a clean slate. I also want to keep the 3.5 game going as long as there's interest. I'm hoping I can get the Powers That Be to set it up with the 4e game as one forum, and the current game as a subforum, but if that's not possible, we may just need two seperate threads for rules, and maybe for character sheets. Interesting debate popped up in my head- There is no such thing as an "enhancement" bonus to hp for obvious reasons- it wouldn't make sense. So instead we have "temporary hp" which can not overlap, and all is well in the world. Then I started thinking about ability scores. How can you "damage" an enhancement bonus? You really can't. So if I cast "Eagles Splendor" on myself, doesn't the spell effectively protect me from being ego-whipped to death? My CHA score can't drop below 0[per the rules], and at 0 [I]points of charisma, I would have a "score" of 4 b/c of the enhancement bonus. At least, until the spell got dispelled.Actually, this is covered in the 3.0 FAQ (I found it long after our last discussion). IIRC, the Eagle's Splendor is counted as normal Cha points in that they can be reduced to zero just like normal ones. If you go down to 1 Cha, you can give yourself a buffer by casting Eagle's Splendor, but once you hit zero, it doesn't help. (i.e. casting the spell on a character who's already downed by Ego Whip doesn't do anything unless they get a Restoration or similar effect.)
Vathelokai 10-16-07, 01:53 AM	Thanks for the input. I like the new builds, though my lack of experience with arcane casters limits me to commenting on Tweak II (Eamane is still going through the paces of novice theurge-dom and I've never done a sorcerer in 3.5).Only played one sorcerer; a summoner/charmer that took alienist levels. A fun time, but not a maximized combatant by any means.Any particular reason you tucked your feats away into an sblock? As an opponent/pitlord, the feats sections is one of the most important things to check before writing tactics/running a fight. I think having it outside of the sblock (right before or right after) is an easier and more logical way to go about things, from a design and usage point of view.You're right. I had gotten used to playing with wizards where the feats are usually crafting, so don't need to be displayed for fights. I'll get that fixed.I'm assuming weight concerns lead to using darts > spears, but what about Throwing Axes? Fairly light, do more damage than darts.Darts have the 20 ft range. Clubs do the same dmg as axes and have the same range, but the clubs are free (thus, I have a lot of them).For a throwing build, an investment in Craft: Weapons would likely net huge long-term savings, since you can freely shift your selection of weapons to whatever is appropriate at your ECL without monetary loss (until you start paying to get some of them enchanted anyways).It's part a lack of skill points: I'm trying to get ambush and outmaneuver, and that takes a lot of skills. Second, I intend to be throwing a lot more than darts later. Though looking at it, it would take 1 rank to make normal thrown weapons, or 6 ranks to make masterwork stuff. I could do it if I pushed the outmaneuver package up to ECL 7. I've also considered other craft skills: alchemy and poison for thrown touch weapons. But damn, that's expensive, and hard on the skill points. I'm going to be using the gather info credits to get strange custom items to throw at people, and since you cannot gather info on an item you craft, it might not be worth it. I'll be thinking on it.I'd probably go with 12 strength over 12 con for your build as well. You are looking at semi/full BAB classes with high-end HD, the extra damage (winning your fights) is likely going to be more important than the extra hp per level (not losing your fights). You look to be going for the outmaneuver package, and having a high(er) strength really helps out there.Good points. Will probably do that.Studded leather? Really? Just 75 more gp for a chain shirt and +1 ac. You can downshift to s.leather (or upgrade to mithril chain) after you get the gloves of dexterity that I'm guessing you'll be buying sometime soon.I suppose it wouldn't hurt for a level or 2.UPD vs UMD: Well, you are running a theurge and a sorcerer... might as well go UPD to have some variety for your characters. That'd be my gut instinct anyways.Well, 2 of my classes have UMD as a class skill. If I grab UPD as my human adaptive skill, I'll have both high enough to reliably use wands and staffs (or equivilents) later on.I'm looking at retiring Alacrity and replacing him with my Platemail wearing Dwarven Monk, but a part of your build caught my eye; any thoughts on the feasibility of metal Bolas? Having a set of (mw) bolas would come in handy.Crafting metal bolas seems fine to me. But if you mean bolas that do lethal dmg, then I can't really see it without credits and magic. Kind of an anti-merciful effect. But bolas with the following could be good... merciful, returning, or seeking from the magic items; collision, suppression, and dislocator from the psionic items.Khaz the full plate monkI'd trade the battle axe for the dwarven war axe; more dmg, and you're racially proficient. Dodge? Sure you don't want to get improved trip on the list? Depends on the long term build I guess. 5 ranks in know:arcana and know:religion? Monk/Barbarian/MysticThurge... now that sounds interesting :D
Callix 10-16-07, 03:05 AM	An idea inspired by the Balthazar Piscou Affair: The Pyrokineticist's Flame Lash ability creates a whip that deals 1d8 fire damage as a ranged touch attack. However, a whip is listed in the SRD as a melee weapon. Firstly, is Flame Lash an actual whip made of fire, or some bizarre new ranged weapon? A couple of extension questions: Could a Bard/Assassin/Pyro (Wild Talent or a psionic race) use the Flame Lash to deliver ranged touch Death Attacks? Pyrokineticist does not grant proficiency with whips, and Flame Lash does not specify that the Pyro is proficient. Does a nonproficient Pyro take a -4 on all Flame Lash attacks? Finally, is Flame Lash subject to the same restrictions as a normal whip (no damage to targets with +1 armor or +3 natural or higher)? They are not specifically rescinded, so if Flame Lash is a whip, then they may well be in force.
whitebaron 10-16-07, 06:45 AM	1) the fire lash is (Ps), not an item or a weapon. so though you can use feats related to a whip, it is no whip, but a spell effect, and therefore does not incur the same penalties as a standard whip. 2) it is a ranged attack, as specified. so it cannot be used for a death effect. 3) the lash would emit at least some light, and thus spoils the studying. if you want to go touch attacks - just take two levels of psychic warrior, with psionic weapon/deep impact. and as a bonus, just use the martial weapon proficiency gained from it for a bigger weapon. fancy an assassin with a greatsword? and another bonus: get chameleon "for free" ...
hogarth 10-16-07, 07:01 AM	1) the fire lash is (Ps), not an item or a weapon. so though you can use feats related to a whip, it is no whip, but a spell effect, and therefore does not incur the same penalties as a standard whip. 2) it is a ranged attack, as specified. so it cannot be used for a death effect. While it does use a ranged touch attack, note that the FAQ claims you add your Str damage to a flame lash and that you can power attack with it (unlike an actual ranged weapon). While it does use a ranged touch attack, note that the FAQ claims you add your Str damage to a flame lash and that you can power attack with it (unlike an actual ranged weapon). But at any rate, under the current ruling you can't use a Death Attack with a psi-like/spell-like ability.
Callix 10-16-07, 08:04 AM	1) the fire lash is (Ps), not an item or a weapon. so though you can use feats related to a whip, it is no whip, but a spell effect, and therefore does not incur the same penalties as a standard whip. 2) it is a ranged attack, as specified. so it cannot be used for a death effect. 3) the lash would emit at least some light, and thus spoils the studying. if you want to go touch attacks - just take two levels of psychic warrior, with psionic weapon/deep impact. and as a bonus, just use the martial weapon proficiency gained from it for a bigger weapon. fancy an assassin with a greatsword? and another bonus: get chameleon "for free" ... The (Ps) ability is the ability to create the whip. The whip, once created, functions as a whip except where the ability specifies otherwise, much as a summoning spell imposes restrictions on the creatures without modifying the fact that they are creatures, not just spell effects. To use a simpler example, Call Weaponry produces a melee weapon. This does not mean the weapon cannot be the target of a Dissolving Weapon power, even though the weapon is a power effect, because it is also defined as a melee weapon. The flame lash is defined as a whip with certain special properties. A whip is a melee weapon. None of the exeptions affect the weapon type (if the attack roll was what counted, then Nettlesong would've worked). Thus, a flame lash is a melee weapon that resolves its attacks as ranged attacks, much like thrown daggers or clubs. I'm arguing as much for the purpose of clarifying the new rules as anything, but Rogue 4/Psion (or psywar) 1/Assassin x could pull off Deep Impact by taking cross-class ranks in Hide and Move Silently. They just wouldn't get Deep Impact until 9th level (+5 BAB at 8th), which is two levels later than Rogue 3/Psion 1/Rogue +1 (CC Concentration)/Assassin 1/Pyro 1/Assassin +x. Add in (Greater at 9th) Psionic Shot on the flat-footed Death Touch Attack, and not much can stay standing.
whitebaron 10-16-07, 10:19 AM	you seem to be right about the sp - sounds logical to me (more than my own explanation) but: whether a weapon is melee or not, is not defined on where the standard weapon is placed on the equipment table. a melee weapon is a weapon that is used in melee. like a thrown greatsword with throw anything (splat) is no melee weapon, so is the fire whip no melee weapon. and: nettlesong is no weapon, since it was not defined as one. if it were defined as a weapon, it would have to go for the normal weapon rules. which means +1 before every other enchantment. still, its spell-ability would be no attack, but a special ability of the weapon. about the faq: while its a nice read, and often really clarifies rules, i must admit that i don't like the way it's handled at wotc. even the sage contradicts himself, as some rulebooks do, as some erratas do. things like "i believe", "could","should" have to be left out of rules, still they are used in the FAQ, as well as some assumptions. furthermore: even wizards own rules compendium directly contradicts core rules! so while the fire lash has some rules, that allows it to make use of any feat you could not possibly use on a ranged weapon, it still stays a ranged attack.
McJarvis 10-16-07, 10:57 AM	(Pick your Psi-race) Ranger 3/PsiWar2/AssassinX would be able to get the deep impact feat combo off nicely by level 5 or 6.
whitebaron 10-16-07, 11:02 AM	(Pick your Psi-race) Ranger 3/PsiWar2/AssassinX would be able to get the deep impact feat combo off nicely by level 5 or 6. deep impact = bab 5 = level 7 with that kind of build if you go assassin asap
McJarvis 10-16-07, 11:07 AM	deep impact = bab 5 = level 7 with that kind of build if you go assassin asap That's my bad- I was thinking it was +4 for some reason. edit- Ranger 5/AssassinX could still access it by 6th, assuming a psionic race. Might be an interesting build with its access to minor magic from healing to alterself type stuff.
whitebaron 10-16-07, 11:24 AM	That's my bad- I was thinking it was +4 for some reason. edit- Ranger 5/AssassinX could still access it by 6th, assuming a psionic race. Might be an interesting build with its access to minor magic from healing to alterself type stuff. yup, it's along the lines i was thinking. my main problem with this kind of build is the following: you use up all your feats just for the deep impact thing. you want to get ability focus on your death attack as well. and maybe some other feats for versatility. thus the psywar2 for those 2 feats, even if it means getting the deep impact due to missing bab later. psywar is a good addition as well, as chameleon is very nice to have as an assassin. maybe once the death attack issue is through at court, that i'll try to make such an assassin - as this would obviously need credits to start at higher levels, i'll wait for the conclusion there. ;)
McJarvis 10-16-07, 11:33 AM	yup, it's along the lines i was thinking. my main problem with this kind of build is the following: you use up all your feats just for the deep impact thing. you want to get ability focus on your death attack as well. and maybe some other feats for versatility. thus the psywar2 for those 2 feats, even if it means getting the deep impact due to missing bab later. psywar is a good addition as well, as chameleon is very nice to have as an assassin. maybe once the death attack issue is through at court, that i'll try to make such an assassin - as this would obviously need credits to start at higher levels, i'll wait for the conclusion there. ;) It's all a juggle between the DC on the death attack and those psionic abilities from psi-war, eh? Ranger 3/Fighter 2 would certainly be a better lead-in for it feat-wise, though I tend to have an uncanny attraction to simple char concepts.
whitebaron 10-16-07, 11:38 AM	It's all a juggle between the DC on the death attack and those psionic abilities from psi-war, eh? Ranger 3/Fighter 2 would certainly be a better lead-in for it feat-wise, though I tend to have an uncanny attraction to simple char concepts. i can understand that. this is how i usually do my table-characters, as i have much problems to justify to myself, why i should skinny-dip into lots of classes just to get the best benefit of them all. coco, somehow, is different - it gives the liberty to just focus on the best build, without having any rp issues. barbarian monk wizard anyone? possible here, unthinkable in a rp-session. i guess the first player to present me such a character at the table would wonder how fast a dm can actually kill you "accidentally"...
Rauul 10-16-07, 02:16 PM	Well after this last miniquest... i am tempted to Switch out Leadership feat (unused) for Spring attack, next level take a level of psion.. then Shadowdancer 3, Elocater 6 Naturally i could do this without the Psion level.. but going that path.. makes Shadow virtually a 4 bard, 1 rogue, 1 assassin, 1+4 psion, 3 shadowdancer (for the shadow Flanking buddy, and 6 Elocater (for Dim step, Flanker ect..) thats 16 levels... and Should be able to Flank and Assassinate from anywhere in the Arena.. With a 60ft charge while invisible and silent and a move action after the charge... and will be a failure... And maybe Deep impact/Psionic weapon/deep crystal/ on a Death attack after the charge/sneak attack (don't think i can get the feats to pull it off)
Hirumajoe 10-16-07, 02:22 PM	Here's a dumb question in regards to the Death Attack debate and the RAW reading interacting with the gladitorial nature of the combat. Say you have an Assassin PC with an Assassin leadership cohort (not such a dumb idea because then you both can flank). The assassin PC has a bracelet of friends with all four charms attuned to the leadership cohort. Let us say the Assassin PC has been pre-buffed such that the leadership cohort is not brought into the Arena. Can the Assassin then choose to use a bracelet charm, teleport the cohort in and have his cohort Death Attack (assuming he remains undetected and can study for 3 rounds and so forth?).
Macbrea 10-16-07, 02:33 PM	So.. the wrestling chair maneuver.. Some guy from the stands jumps down and knives the gladiator! I don't know.. is that legal? :P I think you have to prebuff he is sitting in the stands.
Hirumajoe 10-16-07, 02:44 PM	So.. the wrestling chair maneuver.. Some guy from the stands jumps down and knives the gladiator! I don't know.. is that legal? :P I think you have to prebuff he is sitting in the stands. Do you need to pre-buff a Bronze griffon? Its using a magic item to effectively bring in an ally. Same difference. Isn't it? (Except that it costs you 4750 gp versus a reusable magic item...)
Macbrea 10-16-07, 02:47 PM	Then why limit the creature you bring in? Gate spell is illegal but why not bring in the following: Rogue 20/Assassin 10/Epic Assassin 100 Brought in with bracelet of friends. (I met him at a tea house)
McJarvis 10-16-07, 02:53 PM	Then why limit the creature you bring in? Gate spell is illegal but why not bring in the following: Rogue 20/Assassin 10/Epic Assassin 100 Brought in with bracelet of friends. (I met him at a tea house) Not quite the same. It's a matter of accessibility -> in order to access anything in CoCo you need to aquire it under the rules in some way-shape-or-form. Hirm did that with the leadership feat :) For instance-> I'm sure it would be quite illegal to bring in another PC, even with the owners permission ;)
Salrantol 10-16-07, 02:55 PM	Then why limit the creature you bring in? Gate spell is illegal but why not bring in the following: Rogue 20/Assassin 10/Epic Assassin 100 Brought in with bracelet of friends. (I met him at a tea house)Because a rogue 19/assassin 10/epic assassin 101 is a better build?
Hirumajoe 10-16-07, 03:03 PM	Then why limit the creature you bring in? Gate spell is illegal but why not bring in the following: Rogue 20/Assassin 10/Epic Assassin 100 Brought in with bracelet of friends. (I met him at a tea house) Hmm... Excellent question. Although, this makes me think of another horrible possibility (totally unrelated the Death Attack question). Say you defeat monster or NPC X in a mini-quest to get its corpse so you can animate it. Say monster X's skeleton is destroyed in combat in the Arena. You happen to have a scroll of resurrection, which takes a standard action to use. You resurrect the monster. Is that legal? Even if you break the CR cap?
McJarvis 10-16-07, 03:05 PM	Hmm... Excellent question. Although, this brings up another horrible possibility (totally unrelated the Death Attack question). Say you defeat monster or NPC X in a mini-quest to get its corpse so you can animate it. Say monster X's skeleton is destroyed in combat in the Arena. You happen to have a scroll of resurrection, which takes a standard action to use. You resurrect the monster. Is that legal? Even if you break the CR cap? I believe the GM holds the right to instantaniously beat things like this with the nerf stick. [Correct me if I'm wrong, MW ;) ]
Macbrea 10-16-07, 03:06 PM	I guess this would fall under the following ruling from the rules of gladius: Gate: The Gate spell is banned in all its forms. Gate calls someone to you in a similar fashion that the bracelet does.
hogarth 10-16-07, 03:08 PM	Not quite the same. It's a matter of accessibility -> in order to access anything in CoCo you need to aquire it under the rules in some way-shape-or-form. I presume he did a miniquest to meet the epic assassin and then made the DC 30 Diplomacy check to change attitude from "indifferent" to "helpful". ;) Bracelet of Friends vs. Bronze Griffon: In MtG terms, that's like the difference between the ability to bring in a card from your sideboard and the ability to activate turn a land into a creature. I don't think we play with sideboards here. ;)
Macbrea 10-16-07, 03:09 PM	Actually.. there is a line in resurrection/raise dead that people miss: In addition, the subject’s soul must be free and willing to return. If the subject’s soul is not willing to return, the spell does not work; therefore, a subject that wants to return receives no saving throw. So, very easy pitlord nerf stick to hit the player with.... the creature defeated earlier says.. no.
Hirumajoe 10-16-07, 03:09 PM	I believe the GM holds the right to instantaniously beat things like this with the nerf stick. [Correct me if I'm wrong, MW ;) ] Interestingly, I don't think its possible to bring in a scroll of resurrection now that I think about it. The 28,000 gp price tag (with 25,000 gp of it being material component cost) probably puts it over the 20th level expendables cap. And a staff of Resurrection takes a full 10 minutes to cast. So a custom item (which is unlikely to be approved) would be required.
Hirumajoe 10-16-07, 03:15 PM	I presume he did a miniquest to meet the epic assassin and then made the DC 30 Diplomacy check to change attitude from "indifferent" to "helpful". ;) Bracelet of Friends vs. Bronze Griffon: In MtG terms, that's like the difference between the ability to bring in a card from your sideboard and the ability to activate turn a land into a creature. I don't think we play with sideboards here. ;) Is it really a sideboard? More like a demonic tutor. It would certainly be written on the sheet that the bracelet has been attuned to the cohort (otherwise you wouldn't be able to use it). Your opponent knows he has the ability to pull in the cohort, which is also listed on the sheet. We're apparently allowed to teleport outside of the arena, so I'm not seeing why you can't teleport someone in, who otherwise would have been allowed in with you. I mean, we're allowed to leave psicrystals outside the arena, but within 1 mile. There is precedence for stuff you own affecting the fight inside the arena when it itself isn't. How is this fundamentally different if you bring a Mage cohort along who's first action is to teleport outside of the arena. Thats allowed, no? He presumably could teleport back in at any time of his chosing since he's not the PC and doesn't lose the match for being outside for 10 rounds. Edit: Macbrea: Good call on the Resurrection spell requirements and pitlord's ability to simply say no. :)
Rauul 10-16-07, 03:19 PM	Darn it... only have a BAB of 3 not 4.. so no spring attack for shadow... will just hold on the leadership feat till i get 3 credits to spend... and save gold.. alot of gold..
whitebaron 10-16-07, 03:50 PM	@bracelet of friends: i guess it could be allowed on your cohort, but with some severe restrictions: a) you incur the xp penalty as usual for bringing in an ally. b) the ally has of course, no knowledge whatsoever of previous happenings in the arena when he comes in. so he would still have to study 3 rounds before he could do anything. @scrolls: scrolls always take the original casting time of the spell, so if you do a summon monster from scroll, its casting time is still one round, not 1 std action. same is true for resurrection.
McJarvis 10-16-07, 04:50 PM	I will be rejoining CoCo (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14093221&postcount=1249) immediately. I must confess, I'm at a loss on what to spend my money on. I'm too used to wizards who have so many toys to throw around.
hogarth 10-16-07, 04:55 PM	I will be rejoining CoCo (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14093221&postcount=1249) immediately. I must confess, I'm at a loss on what to spend my money on. I'm too used to wizards who have so many toys to throw around. Just curious -- why would you want a Craft: Armor bonus of more than +10?
McJarvis 10-16-07, 04:58 PM	Just curious -- why would you want a Craft: Armor bonus of more than +10? I forgot about the tools & am generally too lazy to look for something else to get my 2 ranks into. edit-> guess I could get non-masterwork ones? a 50gp saved is a 50gp earned
Rauul 10-16-07, 05:17 PM	I will be rejoining CoCo (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14093221&postcount=1249) immediately. I must confess, I'm at a loss on what to spend my money on. I'm too used to wizards who have so many toys to throw around. What not going to bring back the General or your others??
McJarvis 10-16-07, 05:23 PM	What not going to bring back the General or your others?? A mixture of rule changes(allies) and rules that have not been clarified(intimidate) edit- If intimidate is worked out I'll bring back TIM, though.
lonewolf 10-16-07, 05:29 PM	Whats your problem with intimidate atm?
Hirumajoe 10-16-07, 05:30 PM	I will be rejoining CoCo (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14093221&postcount=1249) immediately. I must confess, I'm at a loss on what to spend my money on. I'm too used to wizards who have so many toys to throw around. You may want to actually pre-buff your horse. :) So a thrallherd build I presume? (No other reason I can see for your feat selection). Makes sense with the low Cha to grab a maximized mount. Looks pretty standard otherwise and should work well.
McJarvis 10-16-07, 05:32 PM	Whats your problem with intimidate atm? There are no rules that govern how it interacts with class allies like animal companions and familiars. Without knowing how to equip my character, I don't feel comfortable going to the next 3FC.
McJarvis 10-16-07, 05:33 PM	You may want to actually pre-buff your horse. :) So a thrallherd build I presume? (No other reason I can see for your feat selection). Makes sense with the low Cha to grab a maximized mount. Looks pretty standard otherwise and should work well. Old habits die hard-> what can I say? :) Yeah, it'll be a thrallherd. I'm gonna play with a mixture of mounted combat and using the nomad's ally-movement capabilities...I may bring a hoarde of level 1's into the arena all equipped with scrolls of MM. I dunno ;)
lonewolf 10-16-07, 05:33 PM	In absence of special rules for class allies, I assume they are treated like all other allies for the purpose of intimidate. Why shouldnt they?
Rauul 10-16-07, 05:34 PM	A mixture of rule changes(allies) and rules that have not been clarified(intimidate) edit- If intimidate is worked out I'll bring back TIM, though. i miss beating on the general
McJarvis 10-16-07, 05:35 PM	In absence of special rules for class allies, I assume they are treated like all other allies for the purpose of intimidate. Why shouldnt they? Intimidate is based on CR. Class allies have no CR. Thus I have no idea what we should do in the meantime. I left this on the council "to do" list a few months ago and nothing has come of it. [probably due to me being one of the few people who use intimidate]
Hirumajoe 10-16-07, 05:44 PM	Old habits die hard-> what can I say? :) Yeah, it'll be a thrallherd. I'm gonna play with a mixture of mounted combat and using the nomad's ally-movement capabilities...I may bring a hoarde of level 1's into the arena all equipped with scrolls of MM. I dunno ;) Thats kinda scary. Although I'd skip the scrolls and just have them memorize it 3 times (as evoker wizards) or take it as one of their known spells as sorcerers for 4 times a day. You can get 5 level 1s at level 8 with a Charisma +2 item? Although that means no mount. And it would drive your pitlord absolutely crazy. :) Although now you're making me want to actually activate Altair. Just to try a straight caster (other than a straight up energy missile blaster...)
Rauul 10-16-07, 05:55 PM	Thats kinda scary. Although I'd skip the scrolls and just have them memorize it 3 times (as evoker wizards) or take it as one of their known spells as sorcerers for 4 times a day. You can get 5 level 1s at level 8 with a Charisma +2 item? Although that means no mount. And it would drive your pitlord absolutely crazy. :) Although now you're making me want to actually activate Altair. Just to try a straight caster (other than a straight up energy missile blaster...) pitlords will be hating Shadow around ECL 10.. With his Shadow from shadowdancer, his 8 level 1 leadership Elf thiefs all using various poisoned Arrows (he will prebuff them)
McJarvis 10-16-07, 06:01 PM	Thats kinda scary. Although I'd skip the scrolls and just have them memorize it 3 times (as evoker wizards) or take it as one of their known spells as sorcerers for 4 times a day. You can get 5 level 1s at level 8 with a Charisma +2 item? Although that means no mount. And it would drive your pitlord absolutely crazy. :) Although now you're making me want to actually activate Altair. Just to try a straight caster (other than a straight up energy missile blaster...) I nearly made this guy either a shaper(for the tactical advantages of those constructs) or a telepath(one less feat). In the end I decided the ride skill was worth it-> not to mention a few interesting tricks I can see being possible with the nomad's list. I haven't worked out the specifics on what I'll do with hoardes of level 1's, but I'm pretty sure that's a primary strength of the thrallherd. Especially when at high levels opponents have a "habit" of buying things to specifically combat you(deflect arrows vs hood for the win, anyone? :-) ), to extra diversity on top of a supermount will be nice.
Hirumajoe 10-16-07, 06:07 PM	I nearly made this guy either a shaper(for the tactical advantages of those constructs) or a telepath(one less feat). In the end I decided the ride skill was worth it-> not to mention a few interesting tricks I can see being possible with the nomad's list. I haven't worked out the specifics on what I'll do with hoardes of level 1's, but I'm pretty sure that's a primary strength of the thrallherd. Especially when at high levels opponents have a "habit" of buying things to specifically combat you(deflect arrows vs hood for the win, anyone? :-) ), to extra diversity on top of a supermount will be nice. Although I'd like to point out that you're not going to be able to bring "hordes" along with the mount. I was under the impression the Thrall associated with the class had the same limits as the leadership feat (i.e. they count against your max ally cap)?
McJarvis 10-16-07, 06:08 PM	Although I'd like to point out that you're not going to be able to bring "hordes" along with the mount. I was under the impression the Thrall associated with the class had the same limits as the leadership feat (i.e. they count against your max ally cap)? They do- but things happen and things die. Always carry a spare ;) Plus a little variety, even if I have to announce it ahead of time, will be nice. edit- do allies have to adhere to the 1/3 rule yet?
hogarth 10-16-07, 06:09 PM	Old habits die hard-> what can I say? :) Yeah, it'll be a thrallherd. I'm gonna play with a mixture of mounted combat and using the nomad's ally-movement capabilities...I may bring a hoarde of level 1's into the arena all equipped with scrolls of MM. I dunno ;) Reginald Molehusband is going to do the same thing, but with dorjes of Ego Whip instead of scrolls of MM. And with the Sell Item skill package, he'll sell them at a profit. :) Allies do need to follow the 1/3 Rule and 3FC.
McJarvis 10-16-07, 06:12 PM	Reginald Molehusband is going to do the same thing, but with dorjes of Ego Whip instead of scrolls of MM. And with the Sell Item skill package, he'll sell them at a profit. :) that's the beauty of it-you can spam all kinds of dangerous low-level things this way. :D
Hirumajoe 10-16-07, 06:16 PM	Reginald Molehusband is going to do the same thing, but with dorjes of Ego Whip instead of scrolls of MM. And with the Sell Item skill package, he'll sell them at a profit. :) Allies do need to follow the 1/3 Rule and 3FC. Mass Ego Whips? Gah... Mindblank, you're my only hope! (That or some reasonable SR). The only dangerous thing Altair can do is spam powers from out of LOS with Burrowing power and using Incorporeality...
MindWandererB 10-16-07, 06:22 PM	Re: Unorthodox ways of bringing allies into the arena: Yeah, that's a nerf waiting to happen. Actually, the Bracelet of Friends wouldn't work anyway: the only allies that fall under the "you can use them if you summon/create them after the fight begins" are the ones created by spells and the like. Allies that sit around all the time waiting to be used count if they contribute to the fight in any way--and getting teleported in certainly counts. @McJarvis: So after Zevox left, you thought the time was ripe for another goblin nomad, eh? Well, it's tried and proven. I think it may be time to look at class allies + Intimidate in the Council.
lonewolf 10-16-07, 06:22 PM	I just noticed that all of Samuels offensive abilities only work against living creatures. Does anyone have an idea how to fix that weakness?
Rauul 10-16-07, 06:32 PM	Hmm if Mac gets the mapper so it can handle different maps... maybe we can have a Map Contest.. to get new Maps.. Like maybe An Island map, Capture the Flag map, and maybe some others... Just thinking it would be nice to have some More Maps.. More Flavor..
Rauul 10-16-07, 06:33 PM	get a Cohort.. Cleric.. to turn Undead..
Hirumajoe 10-16-07, 06:36 PM	In regards to the Intimidate and class allies, I'd personally suggest just using the class level (not the total level) of the class providing the ally as the CR. So for a Wizard 5/Fighter 5 with a familiar, its effective CR would be 5. Simple, easy, and seems like it'd be in the right ballpark for difficulty.
McJarvis 10-16-07, 06:38 PM	@McJarvis: So after Zevox left, you thought the time was ripe for another goblin nomad, eh? Well, it's tried and proven. Zevox is gone?!?!?! What happened? on the note you actually mentioned-> I hadn't thought of the parallels between the characters. Probably because mine will end up pretty different-> with two throw away feats[inquisitor and EK] & the thrallherd levels.
hogarth 10-16-07, 06:39 PM	I just noticed that all of Samuels offensive abilities only work against living creatures. Does anyone have an idea how to fix that weakness? High level dorje of (Empowered) Crystal Shard?
Hirumajoe 10-16-07, 06:44 PM	Zevox is gone?!?!?! What happened? Work load got too much from what I understand. I believe he's taking classes which were demanding enough of his time that he couldn't keep up with them, the CoCo, and other activities that he wanted to do. So no hard feelings or anything like that, just real life taking priority. Wouldn't surprise me if he comes back in the future when he's got more free time.
McJarvis 10-16-07, 06:45 PM	Work load got too much from what I understand. I believe he's taking classes which were demanding enough of his time that he couldn't keep up with them, the CoCo, and other activities that he wanted to do. So no hard feelings or anything like that, just real life taking priority. Wouldn't surprise me if he comes back in the future when he's got more free time. Whew...finally we lose a member to something non-strife related ;)
Eluria 10-16-07, 07:38 PM	I will be rejoining CoCo (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14093221&postcount=1249) immediately. I must confess, I'm at a loss on what to spend my money on. I'm too used to wizards who have so many toys to throw around. Welcome back. I was sort of hoping you'd activate Poe, now that there are move silently rules for attacking/spellcasting.
The Dread Dormammu 10-16-07, 08:38 PM	Snaga just finished an RP quest. Does he get any rewards? did he spend any items? The rules don't have a lot on RP quests (is it like a frozen quest?) http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=927234
Erithmu 10-16-07, 09:04 PM	Snaga just finished an RP quest. Does he get any rewards? did he spend any items? The rules don't have a lot on RP quests (is it like a frozen quest?) Yes you get rewards, Vath just forgot to post them. You link the post in the Questlog, and Vath will update that post. Snaga gets 900xp/900gp *3 = 2700xp/2700gp I'll just say that much.
McJarvis 10-16-07, 09:38 PM	Welcome back. I was sort of hoping you'd activate Poe, now that there are move silently rules for attacking/spellcasting. As I recall, Poe needs some major overhauls. I might be up for the challenge..I'll take a look at those rules you just mentioned. [I honestly didn't think we'd ever update the MS/attacking rules...huh]
Vathelokai 10-17-07, 01:02 AM	Yes you get rewards, Vath just forgot to post them. You link the post in the Questlog, and Vath will update that post. Snaga gets 900xp/900gp *3 = 2700xp/2700gp I'll just say that much. :eek:
Vathelokai 10-17-07, 01:33 AM	I will be rejoining CoCo (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14093221&postcount=1249) immediately. I must confess, I'm at a loss on what to spend my money on. I'm too used to wizards who have so many toys to throw around. Personaly I prefer the dorjes of crystal shard to the energy rays; bypass SR, no save. Grab one for 1500gp - CL2 for 2d6 ranged touch dmg, enlarged for 60 ft range. Entangling ectoplasm is another dorje to consider; high mobility combined with mobility restricting powers... mmmmm. A spare horse is always a good idea; no need to be crippled for the full 3FC if someone blasts the horse in fight 1. Your mithral shield says crafted, but it's set at full price. A tanglefoot and thunderstone are nice to have on hand. I'd learn a power different than energy adaptation. A couple powerstones of that will get you by until you can learn the unspecified version. I'd use the known spells for highly augmentable or save dependent stuff; recall agony (save for half dmg), ego whip (It's the cheeziest!tm), or either of the energy powers. Maybe even an other first lv power if none of those sound good - disipating touch, crystal shard, deja vu, or burst all have intersting uses or high augment potential.
Eamane 10-17-07, 01:57 AM	Since I see dorje's being suggested as things to buy, I'll chime in; Make sure those are Enlarged! It's free, after all. Enlarged Crystal Shard >>>>> over Non-Enlarged Crystal Shard.
Callix 10-17-07, 04:18 AM	If I were interested in building a lycanthrope PC: 1. Is Natural worth it? The skill checks involved may stop me prebuffing hybrid form, which I intend to use very often, and DR 10 is nice if anyone forgets/runs out of silver weapons. 2. If I do take Natural, is the first animal HD the one that gains quadruple skills, or can I assign a starting class level as "first" for skill points, full HP, etc? 3. If I go for Afflicted, what classes count Control Shape as a class skill, or do I just have to take it cross-class all the time? 4. Do I use the character's base stats + animal modifiers for animal HD HP, or the SRD animal stats? 5. I'm currently considering a Goblin Were-Dog, with +0 strength, +8 dex, +4 con, +2 wis and 2 claws and a bite in hybrid form, with only 1 animal HD. I have to keep starting ECL below 5, for credit reasons. Are there better animals out there? Sorry about all the questions. I just thought the idea of a savage goblin that, by the light of the full moon, turns into a Highland Terrier was too good to pass up, especially with 3 attacks and a 26 Dex. Archers and rogues both look like options, although an archer would probably work better as a Xeph.
Eamane 10-17-07, 04:23 AM	If I were interested in building a lycanthrope PC: 1. Is Natural worth it? The skill checks involved may stop me prebuffing hybrid form, which I intend to use very often, and DR 10 is nice if anyone forgets/runs out of silver weapons. 2. If I do take Natural, is the first animal HD the one that gains quadruple skills, or can I assign a starting class level as "first" for skill points, full HP, etc? 3. If I go for Afflicted, what classes count Control Shape as a class skill, or do I just have to take it cross-class all the time? 4. Do I use the character's base stats + animal modifiers for animal HD HP, or the SRD animal stats? 5. I'm currently considering a Goblin Were-Dog, with +0 strength, +8 dex, +4 con, +2 wis and 2 claws and a bite in hybrid form, with only 1 animal HD. I have to keep starting ECL below 5, for credit reasons. Are there better animals out there? Sorry about all the questions. I just thought the idea of a savage goblin that, by the light of the full moon, turns into a Highland Terrier was too good to pass up, especially with 3 attacks and a 26 Dex. Archers and rogues both look like options, although an archer would probably work better as a Xeph. 1. I'd think so. The DR is huge, plus you don't have to waste skill points (you are sucking a large LA either way, so skill points are at a premium) 2. Your non-animal class is considered your 'first' level. 3. Hmm. No class lists it as a class skill, so I'm guessing it's always cross-class; except for Factotums. 4. I'd have to check the Lycanthropy seciton, but I'm pretty sure the alternate form ability will layout whether or not you use the animal's physical stats; off the top of my head I think it's base character + form mods. 5. Dogs are near the top of the 'bonus for LA' ratio. Werebats and Deinychousoisolkoiols beat them out, but have much higher ECLs.
lonewolf 10-17-07, 04:38 AM	I also like Leopards
hogarth 10-17-07, 06:43 AM	I've been tossing around the idea of an afflicted orc were-baboon (+8 str, +4 dex, +2 con, -2 int, -2 cha); that way you can stay in animal form but still use items.
whitebaron 10-17-07, 06:47 AM	i think it will be hard to dish out damage with any psionic or magic followers from leadership or thrallherd, as they are NPC-class only and i know of no psionic npc-class. (at least not in the srd) the only spellcasting choice viable for followers is adept - so still no magic missile, but burning hands and scorching ray is viable...
hogarth 10-17-07, 07:02 AM	i think it will be hard to dish out damage with any psionic or magic followers from leadership or thrallherd, as they are NPC-class only and i know of no psionic npc-class. (at least not in the srd). The feat description in the SRD doesn't say anything about "NPC classes only". Is that in the DMG/PHB? Number of Followers by Level The character can lead up to the indicated number of characters of each level. Followers are similar to cohorts, except they’re generally low-level NPCs. Because they’re generally five or more levels behind the character they follow, they’re rarely effective in combat. Followers don’t earn experience and thus don’t gain levels. However, when a character with Leadership attains a new level, the player consults the table above to determine if she has acquired more followers, some of which may be higher level than the existing followers. (You don’t consult the table to see if your cohort gains levels, however, because cohorts earn experience on their own.)
Rauul 10-17-07, 08:20 AM	hello.. Ok i need Shopping tips for Shadows new Cohort.. Only have 4954.46, can craft armor, and need to refresh Shadows poisons.. So figure 4000gp to shop/craft with.. (custom items under 1000 gp is also avalable) Would appreciate any ideas.. DeMarco is a Front light Enforcer, (he is the one you see unlike shadow)
McJarvis 10-17-07, 08:43 AM	Personaly I prefer the dorjes of crystal shard to the energy rays; bypass SR, no save. Grab one for 1500gp - CL2 for 2d6 ranged touch dmg, enlarged for 60 ft range. Entangling ectoplasm is another dorje to consider; high mobility combined with mobility restricting powers... mmmmm. Yeah- I got the enlarged part. Hadn't occured to me to ramp it up to ML2 already, but I guess it's the same price per damage. I'll just craft the shield later since I can use force screen for my first 3FC. I'm not sure there are enough SR-having gladiators for me to justify losing the +1 damage per die & +3 to hit on electric blasts tho. A spare horse is always a good idea; no need to be crippled for the full 3FC if someone blasts the horse in fight 1. Duh...I'm forgetting my old tricks. A tanglefoot and thunderstone are nice to have on hand. I'm not so sure about the thunderstone. I spend an action to hopefully waste an enemy action? with a 20% chance & assuming a "perfect" world, I could be waiting 5 rounds before breaking even-> I'd rather just blast 'im...or ready my action to blast them & kill it with concentration check. I'd learn a power different than energy adaptation. A couple powerstones of that will get you by until you can learn the unspecified version. I'd use the known spells for highly augmentable or save dependent stuff; recall agony (save for half dmg), ego whip (It's the cheeziest!tm), or either of the energy powers. Maybe even an other first lv power if none of those sound good - disipating touch, crystal shard, deja vu, or burst all have intersting uses or high augment potential. I suppose I could see Energy Push being more useful. I seem to recall someone in the past "jousting" with it to de-horse opponents. Thanks for the input, I no longer feel like I'm not spending my wad :)
whitebaron 10-17-07, 09:39 AM	The feat description in the SRD doesn't say anything about "NPC classes only". Is that in the DMG/PHB? The character can lead up to the indicated number of characters of each level. Followers are similar to cohorts, except they’re generally low-level NPCs. Because they’re generally five or more levels behind the character they follow, they’re rarely effective in combat. it's even in the srd. the word generally is a bit misleading here. its totally different usage in speech is far different to its true meaning -> which is: almost always, mostly, normally, predominantly, typically, usually, widely. (check your thesaurus for this) so, if you get your leadership score high enough(like 15-17), you might encounter 2 wizard1st followers. this is, as usually, not backed up by numbers in the rules, as they were not made with an arena in mind. the dm would generally be asked to assign you your followers, not the player make this decision himself.
hogarth 10-17-07, 09:43 AM	it's even in the srd. the word generally is a bit misleading here. its totally different usage in speech is far different to its true meaning. Wait: are you claiming that there's no such thing as an NPC wizard, fighter, etc. -- only NPC adepts, warriors, and so forth? I would dispute that. :)
McJarvis 10-17-07, 09:46 AM	so, if you get your leadership score high enough(like 15-17), you might encounter 2 wizard1st followers. this is, as usually, not backed up by numbers in the rules, as they were not made with an arena in mind. the dm would generally be asked to assign you your followers, not the player make this decision himself. All of my urging to nerf leadership & thralling on this point has fallen on deaf ears.
whitebaron 10-17-07, 09:47 AM	Wait: are you claiming that there's no such thing as an NPC wizard, fighter, etc. -- only NPC adepts, warriors, and so forth? I would dispute that. :) i'd assume the wording means low-level NPC-classes, yes. also, i'm not sure about the source, there are lists about npcs to be found in cities etc. -> most of them have NPC-classes, and so should followers. it's fine to have some other followers - but over 90% are npc-classes. --edit-- @jarvis: well, the rules seem to back it up, that you have generally npc-classes.
Rauul 10-17-07, 09:50 AM	My Shopping list so far... Full plate armorc 750 Mw Deep crystal great axe 1320 Mw Deep Crystal Mighty bow+3 1700 40 arrows 2 poisons (3) Drow 225 Powerstone of Dissolving weapon(1) 200 power stone of Darkvision (1) 200 prebuff Extended Darkvision cl6 180 Total 4577gp Total left.. 377gp Anything else anyone can think of..
McJarvis 10-17-07, 09:53 AM	--edit-- @jarvis: well, the rules seem to back it up, that you have generally npc-classes. The rules may- but the council does not. We've had two thrallherds in the past, and I know at least one of them used many PC-class believers.
whitebaron 10-17-07, 09:55 AM	just one question: since when is deepcrystal possible on bows? you can do ranged weapons, yes. but nothing that is not usually made out of metal can be made deepcrystal! While a weapon made of deep crystal is no different from a mundane crystal weapon for a nonpsionic character, [...] Mundane crystal can be used in place of metal in weapons or armor, using a special forging process. The fortified crystal possesses the properties of a similar masterwork steel weapon or armor, except for visual appearance. no wooden deepcrystal items... @leadership: then maybe, the council should decide over it again. it seems clear to me, that you should at least get some factor into the equation, and not allowed to have all your 5 lvl 1 followers be useful mm-casters. as their scrolls count towards your expendable cap, scrolls are not my main issue. but still, their lvl 1 spells (and they'd only need their lvl 1 spells) would be enough for the fight. 10 free mms for one fight? i want to see any feat that is then still comparable to leadership in power.
Rauul 10-17-07, 09:58 AM	All of my urging to nerf leadership & thralling on this point has fallen on deaf ears. *looks at his ear plugs* Diplomatic Allys were removed, Handle animal Allys were downgraded... what else do you want.. removal of the feat and the prestige class?? I am actually looking forward for next level and community system for Shadow to get his lil group of thieves.. I acually have his 10 level 1's and 1 level 2 follows already drawn up for when he gets his special power (next level), and house (community) in 2 levels... And shadow is a Bard.. who can't use any of their class ability's unless they have Allies
whitebaron 10-17-07, 10:01 AM	*looks at his ear plugs* Diplomatic Allys were removed, Handle animal Allys were downgraded... what else do you want.. removal of the feat and the prestige class?? I am actually looking forward for next level and community system for Shadow to get his lil group of thieves.. I acually have his 10 level 1's and 1 level 2 follows already drawn up for when he gets his special power (next level), and house (community) in 2 levels... And shadow is a Bard.. who can't use any of their class ability's unless they have Allies you can have as many followers in your thieves guild as you want. just don't expect them all to be PC classes. and: mind my previous posting about deepcrystal.
Rauul 10-17-07, 10:02 AM	just one question: since when is deepcrystal possible on bows? you can do ranged weapons, yes. but nothing that is not usually made out of metal can be made deepcrystal! no wooden deepcrystal items... u are missing 1 important line.. "Any item could potentially be made out of deep crystal" we have a character with a deep crystal net..
Rauul 10-17-07, 10:03 AM	you can have as many followers in your thieves guild as you want. just don't expect them all to be PC classes. and: mind my previous posting about deepcrystal. actually they are all halfling rouges.. every last one of them.. a family of rouges.
lonewolf 10-17-07, 10:04 AM	Sorry WB, but I have to disagree. Assuming that every low level NPC has a NPC class is very strange. And saying that its possible to get a lvl2 Wizard NPC Follower, but no lvl1 Wizard NPC Follower completly defies logic. That wizard HAD to be a lvl1 Wizard at some point during his career. About the demographics: Someone who is willing to serve an adventurer and is willing to go on adventure with him is most likely more than an average commoner. What kind of Followers he should have should be determined by the characters RP description of his Leadership Feat: - A Paladin from the CEF could have a devoted honor guard(fighters), some aspirants(paladins), a few acolytes(Clerics) and probably some squires(warriors) and servants(Commoners). - The head of a wizards school could have his followers easily be mostly his low level students(wizards). In a tabletop game a DM has the power to rule otherwise, but your interpretation simply does not have any rule-base.
McJarvis 10-17-07, 10:04 AM	*looks at his ear plugs* Diplomatic Allys were removed, Handle animal Allys were downgraded... what else do you want.. removal of the feat and the prestige class?? Given that the prestige class is already nerf'd [ECL-2 cohort], I'm looking for something to establish that it really is better than leadership & worth the 1->2 feats you spend to get into it. [not to mention the 1->2 feats you miss out on by being in it AND the manifester level] Just leadership requiring NPC classes for followers would suffice, methinks.
TelinArtho 10-17-07, 10:06 AM	u are missing 1 important line.. "Any item could potentially be made out of deep crystal" we have a character with a deep crystal net.. Shhh.... I'm waiting for the guy with the adamantine slashing weapon to spend 4 rounds cutting through it...
whitebaron 10-17-07, 10:07 AM	u are missing 1 important line.. "Any item could potentially be made out of deep crystal" we have a character with a deep crystal net.. i believe this to be out of order. but again, it is shown to me clearly, that psionics are broken as such. just like giving a kid everything it wants. you use something HARD to build something as flexible as a bow. as this example is also given in the srd, i won't argue it further but - helloooo, where's the logic? if any of my table-players ever buys deecrystal bows, i'll have to sunder them... just to show them that this was a bad idea... :rolleyes:
Rauul 10-17-07, 10:09 AM	Shhh.... I'm waiting for the guy with the adamantine slashing weapon to spend 4 rounds cutting through it... forgot that was your character... thought it was one of niqil's
Rauul 10-17-07, 10:11 AM	i believe this to be out of order. but again, it is shown to me clearly, that psionics are broken as such. just like giving a kid everything it wants. you use something HARD to build something as flexible as a bow. as this example is also given in the srd, i won't argue it further but - helloooo, where's the logic? if any of my table-players ever buys deecrystal bows, i'll have to sunder them... just to show them that this was a bad idea... :rolleyes: What does Composite mean to you?? to me it means it's made of wood inlayed with metal to give it str, and making it harder to pull back.. (it's not a compound bow)
lonewolf 10-17-07, 10:15 AM	also we shouldnt forget that barely anyone actually uses Followers. If you have your cohort at ECL-2 you are not allowed to bring any allies besides your cohort into the arena, and 95% of the time one higherlevel ally is more powerful than a bunch of 6hp wizards. :rolleyes:
McJarvis 10-17-07, 10:16 AM	What does Composite mean to you?? To me it means I get to pay 100gp per +1 str bonus that I can apply to damage!
Rauul 10-17-07, 10:20 AM	To me it means I get to pay 100gp per +1 str bonus that I can apply to damage! yanno... I have missed you... please get a character in play so i can beat on him.. (and loose like i normally do) Maybe I will get lucky enough to get Gortek paired against you.. Welcome back McJ.
lonewolf 10-17-07, 10:23 AM	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composite_bow Under the material section, there is no metal noted, just horn, wood, and other organic materials. While I agree that it shouldnt work, RAW it does. Unfortunately, the rules lawyers are in the majority on this board, so I dont see this rule beeing changed.
whitebaron 10-17-07, 10:24 AM	What does Composite mean to you?? to me it means it's made of wood inlayed with metal to give it str, and making it harder to pull back.. (it's not a compound bow) actually - no. though there could some metal parts be in it, it would be unusual. horn is about the best thing to use. composite basically means that by using different wooden parts, and glueing them together, you get more force for your invested strength. also the form is different... @lonewolf: right, missed that part. so go on with those PC followers, as you'd never get more than 5 into the arena anyway. ;) -edit- and rules lawyers usually make for a good shot in the wotc/dnd-homepage "Save my game" :)
McJarvis 10-17-07, 10:25 AM	yanno... I have missed you... please get a character in play so i can beat on him.. (and loose like i normally do) Maybe I will get lucky enough to get Gortek paired against you.. Welcome back McJ. Ouch. Those combat brutes are always such a strain on direct-damage wizards to kill :(
whitebaron 10-17-07, 10:30 AM	two totally unrelated questions: 1) is there an actual list of the elders present in coco? i know, they all have the same title, but i found such a list neither in the courtroom, nor the council... 2) can you (in theory, coco use is unlikely due to limited ressources) use overchannel in order to create a magic item with a higher manifester level than your own?
McJarvis 10-17-07, 10:33 AM	two totally unrelated questions: 1) is there an actual list of the elders present in coco? i know, they all have the same title, but i found such a list neither in the courtroom, nor the council... There _should_ be, though I wouldn't know where it is if it's not in the council. I believe the current elders are Sauro, telin, macbrea, erithmu, and vath. I'm assuming NiQil is out since I haven't seen him since I got back- though I dunno for certain I suppose. On an interesting note-> I believe this makes me the oldest CoCo member to never get an elder-ship. ;) [last time I checked only Telin and 'Rith out-date me] edit-> Though it's probably due to my sporatic interest in CoCo. I do tend to take month long breaks every now and again. Oh, and there was that year long absence that one time... 2) can you (in theory, coco use is unlikely due to limited ressources) use overchannel in order to create a magic item with a higher manifester level than your own? No. Overchannel only works when you are actually manifesting a power.
Rauul 10-17-07, 10:48 AM	Elders Telin (prisonlord)(Guild lord?) Macbrea Vathelokia (scribe lord?) Erithmu SauroGrenom (Blackmarket/training hall) GameMaster MindwandererB Old timers Tellish of ket Zerox Niqil Cathrine (Creater) Pittbull Dracazar (Architect) King Uther May of missed some oldtimers... since I am newish here
McJarvis 10-17-07, 10:54 AM	you missed sauro ;)
Rauul 10-17-07, 10:55 AM	you missed sauro ;) Was just going to add his name SauroGrenom... Speaking of Sauro... where is he.. training hall needs his attention :)
Rauul 10-17-07, 11:06 AM	Balthazar Picsou is missing his [special power] tag (bard 5)
TelinArtho 10-17-07, 11:15 AM	Elders Telin (prisonlord)(Guild lord?) Macbrea Vathelokia (scribe lord?) Erithmu SauroGrenom (Blackmarket/training hall) GameMaster MindwandererB Old timers Tellish of ket Zerox Niqil Cathrine (Creater) Pittbull Dracazar (Architect) King Uther May of missed some oldtimers... since I am newish here Just prisonlord for me. Which also gives me purview over the courtroom. Of course, at the moment I don't have access to the Prisonlord account and NiQil hasn't responded to the PM I sent him on the subject... And by the way it was Catarane - not Cathrine. Technically he wasn't even the creator though he was in charge since anyone who is active now was around. I believe Ashenai and Moj... predated him.
lonewolf 10-17-07, 11:21 AM	and while were at it: Its Zevox not Zerox. :rolleyes:
Rauul 10-17-07, 11:26 AM	leave my typos alone!!!!!!!! :banghead: :incog:
McJarvis 10-17-07, 11:28 AM	I'll jump on this band-wagon. It's "Vathelokai" not "Vathelokia"
Rauul 10-17-07, 11:29 AM	On a side note... did they ever clear up the Pitlords Account.. or is it all on MWB's shoulders for a while??
TelinArtho 10-17-07, 11:41 AM	Pitlords is still only associated with MWB - so it is all on him for a bit. It will probably be that way for a while - Wizards needs to clear up whatever this abomination Gleemax is... (I have no clue since I haven't gone searching and frankly, well, I don't care...).
McJarvis 10-17-07, 11:44 AM	Isn't it about time for another Uncon? Or am I off by a few months?
Sjiggie 10-17-07, 11:47 AM	Their won't be an Uncon this year. I've read it somewhere but can't find it at the moment.
McJarvis 10-17-07, 11:54 AM	Their won't be an Uncon this year. I've read it somewhere but can't find it at the moment. My initial searches seem to indicate the same. Given the "crowded" nature of tags at the end of character names, perhaps some thought should be given to a yearly CoCo tournament with rotating winners. [you earn the tag for only a certain amount of time] edit- on an unrelated note, who runs the newspaper right now?
Hirumajoe 10-17-07, 12:27 PM	just one question: since when is deepcrystal possible on bows? you can do ranged weapons, yes. but nothing that is not usually made out of metal can be made deepcrystal! I think you forgot to quote a little farther on from the SRD. While a weapon made of deep crystal is no different from a mundane crystal weapon for a nonpsionic character, a psionic wielder of a deep crystal weapon can focus psionic power through it, increasing the damage that weapon deals. As a free action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity, the wielder can channel psionic power into a melee weapon or ranged weapon made of deep crystal. For 2 power points, the deep crystal weapon deals an extra 2d6 points of damage. The weapon will stay charged for 1 minute or until it scores its next hit. Bows, crossbows, and slings bestow this power on their ammunition. All missile weapons lose this effect if they miss. However, they may be recovered and charged again. The bolded part makes it explicit that they expect deepcrystal bows and have special rules with how they interact with ammunition. Just assume they magically treat the stuff to make it flexible like wood or hard like still. Kinda like that Druid spell that turns wood effectively in to metal. Why not the other way around. :)
Luni 10-17-07, 12:38 PM	Could someone go through Tanriel's sheet here http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14094154&postcount=1250 and tell me what I've done wrong. It's been too long since I made a character.
McJarvis 10-17-07, 12:41 PM	Could someone go through Tanriel's sheet here http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14094154&postcount=1250 and tell me what I've done wrong. It's been too long since I made a character. style wise- your weight/encumbrance is missing. Maximum CR & CA of allies isn't filled out. weight/encumbrance for your camel isn't filled out experience section isn't necessary[not an error, though, I suppose] edit-> oh, and Druids are far too scarey. For my own peace of mind, you should be a bard or a soulknife instead ;)
whitebaron 10-17-07, 12:48 PM	Could someone go through Tanriel's sheet here http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14094154&postcount=1250 and tell me what I've done wrong. It's been too long since I made a character. the closing /quote is still there. cr per ally = ecl-4 (min1) ecl per ally = ecl-2 (min1) leave spare arrows at home. you can switch them in between fights.
Luni 10-17-07, 12:53 PM	style wise- edit-> oh, and Druids are far too scarey. For my own peace of mind, you should be a bard or a soulknife instead ;) Druids aren't that scary at level 3. I could always remake my were-eagle. :) Thanks for the fixes. I wasn't aware I could retrieve some stuff from home inbetween fights.
whitebaron 10-17-07, 01:07 PM	Druids aren't that scary at level 3. I could always remake my were-eagle. :) Thanks for the fixes. I wasn't aware I could retrieve some stuff from home inbetween fights. from home - yes buy - no. you still can't get more than your expandable cap, even if you leave something at home..
MindWandererB 10-17-07, 02:06 PM	On a side note... did they ever clear up the Pitlords Account.. or is it all on MWB's shoulders for a while??I've been asking them for a fix of some sort, but my requests gave fallen on deaf (official) ears for the time being. If they never get around to fixing it, then what we'll have to do is re-create all the avatar accounts under a new (shared) email address, and re-post all the rules threads. I'm hoping to put that off as long as possible, although the Prisonlords situation is an issue. Fortunately, Telin can do most of the critical part of that using his personal account (since the roster at the beginning isn't used often). And by the way it was Catarane - not Cathrine. Technically he wasn't even the creator though he was in charge since anyone who is active now was around. I believe Ashenai and Moj... predated him.Well... sort of. Caterane (and I, too, still think of that name as female) got himself the "Core Coliseum Creator" title, and Moherajikuyx got "CoCo Founder." Mo created the original version (when it didn't have its own forum), but the current red-tape-heavy incarnation is mostly Cat's work. There _should_ be, though I wouldn't know where it is if it's not in the council. I believe the current elders are Sauro, telin, macbrea, erithmu, and vath. I'm assuming NiQil is out since I haven't seen him since I got back- though I dunno for certain I suppose. On an interesting note-> I believe this makes me the oldest CoCo member to never get an elder-ship. ;) [last time I checked only Telin and 'Rith out-date me] edit-> Though it's probably due to my sporatic interest in CoCo. I do tend to take month long breaks every now and again. Oh, and there was that year long absence that one time...Oops, I need to update that list. There's one in the rules thread somewhere. As far as seniority, I'm not sure where you'd stand if we removed your absences. Same goes for lonewolf--you're both gone a lot. Not that that necessarily takes either of you out of the running, but it is one of the things we think about. While I agree that it shouldnt work, RAW it does. Unfortunately, the rules lawyers are in the majority on this board, so I dont see this rule beeing changed.I've always thought it's absurd that you can make a bow out of deepcrystal but not mundane crystal, but the rules are pretty clear about it. The composite bow may be layered crystal and wood, perhaps, or some other more flexible material--or, what would make more sense in some ways, if deepcrystal itself can be made to have different levels of flexibility (thus, the net and sling). If I were interested in building a lycanthrope PC: 1. Is Natural worth it? The skill checks involved may stop me prebuffing hybrid form, which I intend to use very often, and DR 10 is nice if anyone forgets/runs out of silver weapons. 4. Do I use the character's base stats + animal modifiers for animal HD HP, or the SRD animal stats? 5. I'm currently considering a Goblin Were-Dog, with +0 strength, +8 dex, +4 con, +2 wis and 2 claws and a bite in hybrid form, with only 1 animal HD. I have to keep starting ECL below 5, for credit reasons. Are there better animals out there? Sorry about all the questions. I just thought the idea of a savage goblin that, by the light of the full moon, turns into a Highland Terrier was too good to pass up, especially with 3 attacks and a 26 Dex. Archers and rogues both look like options, although an archer would probably work better as a Xeph.1. It's a trade-off. My decision to be Natural for Besthirah was 1) I want to be able to become a bat in one try, and 2) the involuntary change after taking damage could be a big problem (though not as bad as it would be for Antalya). It's not a bad choice for primates, though, and it's worth considering for builds that rely on animal form more heavily (like Jar-Red). 4. This is the hardest bit to deal with for lycans. HP are calculated based on the individual forms, unlike every other situation out there. So if you get a +4 Con bonus from the template and have 3 animal HD, the template nets you only 6 bonus HP from Con (2 HP per HD). The increased Con does not apply to your class or other racial HD. The MM explains this, although it's still confusing; you can see the MM pre-made lycans for examples (especially the dread lord werewolf and hill giant dire wereboar). 5. I made a list for myself at one point. At 1 HD, the only contenders are the dog, the eagle (see Luni's Imperi Valhalla), and the baboon, but remember that you may be willing to go with an afflicted werebaboon. Upgrading to 2 HD gets you the riding dog and porpoise, and 3 HD, the cheetah, crocodile, leopard, constrictor snake, Large viper (crappy stats, but a Half-giant Wereviper gets Huge weapons and one hell of a grapple check), squid (also a great grappler), and dire weasel. 4 HD gets the ape (also a good Afflicted choice--I'm considering trying a half-giant afflicted wereape someday), the dire bat, and the deinonychus.
McJarvis 10-17-07, 02:23 PM	Oops, I need to update that list. There's one in the rules thread somewhere. That list really should be in the first post of either the council or the courtroom [or both]. It's the natural place a normal person would look for such information. As far as seniority, I'm not sure where you'd stand if we removed your absences. I think it'd be pretty difficult to define absence on my part, since I often stop playing characters but continue to be active on the forums. During the entire Mind's Eye debate I didn't run anything, but was doing work for CoCo all the same.
TelinArtho 10-17-07, 02:40 PM	Editing the courtroom at the moment is out since I don't have access to the prisonlords account...
hogarth 10-17-07, 02:43 PM	I know this has been answered before, but... A 3rd-level psion with a maximum of 14 power points uses 5 power points in the first fight of his cycle. He earns enough XP to become 4th level with a maximum of 21 power points. How many power points does he have available for his second fight? 1) 7; 21/3 + none unused from his first fight (and he'll have a minimum of 9 pp available for his third fight) 2) 9; 21/3 + 21/3 - 5 used in his first fight (and he'll have a minimum of 7 pp available for his third fight) 3) None of the above
Salrantol 10-17-07, 02:43 PM	And by the way it was Catarane - not Cathrine. Technically he wasn't even the creator though he was in charge since anyone who is active now was around. I believe Ashenai and Moj... predated him.Actually, it was Caterane. 2 "a's", 2 "e's".
MindWandererB 10-17-07, 02:46 PM	I know this has been answered before, but... A 3rd-level psion with a maximum of 14 power points uses 5 power points in the first fight of his cycle. He earns enough XP to become 4th level with a maximum of 21 power points. How many power points does he have available for his second fight? 1) 7; 21/3 + none unused from his first fight (and he'll have a minimum of 9 pp available for his third fight) 2) 9; 21/3 + 21/3 - 5 used in his first fight (and he'll have a minimum of 7 pp available for his third fight) 3) None of the above He has: (14/3 - 5) + (21/3) = 7 PP. And anything left over for fight 3. Answer 1.
Salrantol 10-17-07, 02:47 PM	There is no message here.
McJarvis 10-17-07, 03:00 PM	So who runs the gladius newspaper?
MindWandererB 10-17-07, 03:04 PM	So who runs the gladius newspaper? Vath, when he has time.
McJarvis 10-17-07, 03:10 PM	Vath, when he has time. Wonderful-> I want to do articles but was not sure that I wanted to be editing a gaming publication again. I'll be sure to slide stuff his way :) edit- or rather, I'll slide things towards the Gladius News Network account...
MindWandererB 10-17-07, 03:12 PM	Wonderful-> I want to do articles but was not sure that I wanted to be editing a gaming publication again. I'll be sure to slide stuff his way :) edit- or rather, I'll slide things towards the Gladius News Network account... Um, make sure someone has access to it first. Whose email address is it associated with?
hogarth 10-17-07, 03:14 PM	Wonderful-> I want to do articles but was not sure that I wanted to be editing a gaming publication again. I'll be sure to slide stuff his way :) I thought maybe your character was going to take out a classified ad to recruit more peons. :)
McJarvis 10-17-07, 03:31 PM	Um, make sure someone has access to it first. Whose email address is it associated with? I'm unsure. The post it's associated with last updated in september, though. @Hogarth: I doubt a Thrallherd would take an ad out in a newspaper. Kind of goes against the grain of what thralling is all about, eh? My interests are more along the lines of a less subjective series of articles that highlight various gladiators. It's always bothered me a bit that the "Glaidator of the Week/Month/Time Period" ends up being whoever gets written about- or just chosen randomly.
Rauul 10-17-07, 03:36 PM	I'm just waiting for Some elf to interview Graashnak for the newspaper... Would be a short interview :) More Pointy ears for his necklace
Luni 10-17-07, 03:43 PM	I'm just waiting for Some elf to interview Graashnak for the newspaper... Would be a short interview :) More Pointy ears for his necklace I really should take you up on your offer. :)
lonewolf 10-17-07, 03:49 PM	What is the current ruling for ghosts who want to bring material weapons with them into the arena to use with telekinesis?
MindWandererB 10-17-07, 03:51 PM	What is the current ruling for ghosts who want to bring material weapons with them into the arena to use with telekinesis? They can't. Anything you want to bring into the arena, either you or your ally has to carry. Tho, I recall one of our former Elders was going to get a troll ally for the express purpose of bringing in weapons to Thrust.
Rauul 10-17-07, 03:51 PM	I really should take you up on your offer. :) *mutters about pointed eared eagles* Imperi Vahalla would make Graashnak really just wanna get drunk... would be a fight tho...
Rauul 10-17-07, 03:53 PM	What is the current ruling for ghosts who want to bring material weapons with them into the arena to use with telekinesis? Spend 100 gp and get the level 1 fighter merc.. have him carry your items in for you.. :)
lonewolf 10-17-07, 03:57 PM	or 3 mules(one for each fight, should they die)
MindWandererB 10-17-07, 03:58 PM	Spend 100 gp and get the level 1 fighter merc.. have him carry your items in for you.. :) Better yet, just buy a mule and use telekinesis to dump its pack out on the ground. Edit: Bah, too slow. And lonewolf had the better version, anyway.
hogarth 10-17-07, 04:11 PM	@Hogarth: I doubt a Thrallherd would take an ad out in a newspaper. Kind of goes against the grain of what thralling is all about, eh? Well, you want to be a little bit disciminating, don't you? Otherwise you'll just end up with a lot of commoners with Skill Focus (Basketweaving) showing up on your doorstep. :)
McJarvis 10-17-07, 04:31 PM	Well, you want to be a little bit disciminating, don't you? Otherwise you'll just end up with a lot of commoners with Skill Focus (Basketweaving) showing up on your doorstep. :) I was thinking of just sitting outside of an Arcane university and saying "follow me" to every other student that walked by. I'm a big fan of acting like the Thrallherd's ability is an active dominating of minds in a non-dispellable manner. [only capable of targeting NPC's that are non-story related, of course!]
hogarth 10-17-07, 04:32 PM	Did we ever get any guidelines regarding how long it takes for a smokestick (or other source of smoke) to dissipate? I'm wondering if Reginald Molehusband could use a smokestick + Brain Lock to kill an enemy by suffocation.
whitebaron 10-17-07, 04:38 PM	I was thinking of just sitting outside of an Arcane university and saying "follow me" to every other student that walked by. I'm a big fan of acting like the Thrallherd's ability is an active dominating of minds in a non-dispellable manner. [only capable of targeting NPC's that are non-story related, of course!] so much for the subtleness of your call. :rofl: @smokestick: how should it do that?
lonewolf 10-17-07, 04:58 PM	hmm Mules have CR1 Donkeys have CR 1/6 I think Im gonna go with the donkeys :rolleyes:
Eamane 10-17-07, 05:00 PM	Re: Smokestick Real world physics; someone in a room filled with smoke will suffocate due to the lower level of oxygen. This is how most people die via house fires, they don't burn to death, they asphyxiate in their sleep. Tangent: Anyone willing to run a mini-quest for Xuan Sunai (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13488520) next week? Just some fluff to justify going into Psion afterwards (she's on the brink of leveling). This also dove-tails into the early question about psions; in this case, how many pp would someone who just entered a class (and is going into their second fight) have? 1/3rd? Then everything on the final fight, aye? Seems a bit... odd.
Erithmu 10-17-07, 05:00 PM	I think GNN is linked to me ... Lemme pull it up and I can forward the stuff along to Vath. EDIT: Yup ... Also it looks like Gleemax has activated the email change thing, dunno if anyone has tried it, but we could set up a general CoCo email account.
hogarth 10-17-07, 05:12 PM	@smokestick: how should it do that? I think the CoCo interpretation is that a smokestick creates "heavy smoke" as per the DMG definition (which can cause choking): http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#smokeEffects
MindWandererB 10-17-07, 05:16 PM	I think GNN is linked to me ... Lemme pull it up and I can forward the stuff along to Vath. EDIT: Yup ... Also it looks like Gleemax has activated the email change thing, dunno if anyone has tried it, but we could set up a general CoCo email account. It has? All right, I need to play with that. Edit: I don't see how to do it. I can change my email address, but all my accounts go with it.
Callix 10-17-07, 05:17 PM	I think the CoCo interpretation is that a smokestick creates "heavy smoke" as per the DMG definition (which can cause choking): http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#smokeEffects That would directly contradict the Smokestick description, which references the Fog Cloud (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fogCloud.htm) spell, which does not affect breathing. Not saying it's impossible, but it does contradict the item's text.
McJarvis 10-17-07, 05:23 PM	Does assassinate require that you tell your opponent what your assassinating & what weapon you're using? Seems like I could use Poe in conjunction with assassinate for a significant advantage...since an opponent wouldn't know if he had a damaged ally, dominated ally, weakened ally, etc, etc. RE: Smokesticks: I think you're thinking of the eversmoking bottle, which directly references heavy smoke.
Vathelokai 10-17-07, 06:04 PM	Yeah- I got the enlarged part. Hadn't occured to me to ramp it up to ML2 already, but I guess it's the s6+9ame price per damage. I'll just craft the shield later since I can use force screen for my first 3FC. I'm not sure there are enough SR-having gladiators for me to justify losing the +1 damage per die & +3 to hit on electric blasts tho. Keep in mind that crystal shard is 2d6 with no save, and energy ray is 2d6+2 reflex for half (and it's an item reflex at that, so low DC). edit- on an unrelated note, who runs the newspaper right now? I was writing it most recently, but RL got the best of me. Currently the Gladius News account is in MWB's name. I might have to send the paper to him and have him post it. Um, make sure someone has access to it first. Whose email address is it associated with? Ummm.... that's not good. I tried checking the profile but it's not open to the public. I think GNN is linked to me ... Lemme pull it up and I can forward the stuff along to Vath.. That's a relief.
Erithmu 10-17-07, 06:08 PM	@MWB: Ahhhhh ... I registered GNN under my spam email account, so 'Rith and GNN are on different emails. (lucky me) @Vath: nothing in the inbox.
McJarvis 10-17-07, 06:09 PM	Keep in mind that crystal shard is 2d6 with no save, and energy ray is 2d6+2 reflex for half (and it's an item reflex at that, so low DC). Energy ray doesn't have a save associated with it. ??
lonewolf 10-17-07, 06:09 PM	Keep in mind that crystal shard is 2d6 with no save, and energy ray is 2d6+2 reflex for half (and it's an item reflex at that, so low DC). Thats not correct. Energy ray doesnt allow a save. but SR and energy resistance helps.
Vathelokai 10-17-07, 07:02 PM	:confused: I must have been thinking of energy push or something...
MindWandererB 10-17-07, 07:10 PM	@MWB: Ahhhhh ... I registered GNN under my spam email account, so 'Rith and GNN are on different emails. (lucky me) @Vath: nothing in the inbox.Yay! We have one shared account that isn't stuck! Too bad it's probably the least important one, but I'll count my blessings. If the Powers that Be can change the database, we may end up associating all the other shared accounts with that one (and change the email address, of course).:confused: I must have been thinking of energy push or something...Probably. That one does allow a save (although SR and ER are still valid concerns with the Ray).
Callix 10-17-07, 10:51 PM	Much more applicable rules question than my last few: what can be done in a "prebuff round" from the Scout package. Specifically: 1. Can you leave your starting area? 2. Can you attack your opponent, and are they considered flat-footed? Thanks in advance.
hogarth 10-17-07, 10:53 PM	Much more applicable rules question: what can be done in a "prebuff round" from the Scout package. Specifically: 1. Can you leave your starting area? 2. Can you attack your opponent, and are they considered flat-footed? Thanks in advance. No, I believe the prebuff round(s) takes place just prior to setting foot in the arena.
Erithmu 10-17-07, 11:09 PM	Much more applicable rules question than my last few: what can be done in a "prebuff round" from the Scout package. Specifically: 1. Can you leave your starting area? 2. Can you attack your opponent, and are they considered flat-footed? Thanks in advance.1. Yes you can see here. You have two elders involved who read it action as such. I think to goal was to have this be the situation, although our houserules don't say as much. 2. I don't see why not. I think that we might add to the scout package (or any situation where one character would get a surprise/prebuff/whatever round that if an attack is made or visibility is established all other rounds are lost, if any still remain.
hogarth 10-17-07, 11:19 PM	1. Yes you can see here. You have two elders involved who read it action as such. I think to goal was to have this be the situation, although our houserules don't say as much. Are you mixing up "prebuff round" (from Scout) and "surprise round" (from Ambush)? In the example you quoted, Valen uses Animal Affinity during his two prebuff rounds.
Erithmu 10-17-07, 11:25 PM	Your right ... my fault for trying to think when I need to be studying.
whitebaron 10-18-07, 04:15 AM	Much more applicable rules question than my last few: what can be done in a "prebuff round" from the Scout package. Specifically: 1. Can you leave your starting area? 2. Can you attack your opponent, and are they considered flat-footed? Thanks in advance. i'm glad that even if you could attack then, you are the defender in our fight *g* but i think the wording seems to be unclear from the rules. scout = prebuff - buffing is generally meant as spellcasting or using charged items. but i'd allow you to move, as long as you're not attacking. atfer all, this fits the name "scout" more than "prebuff" ambush = surprise round = 1 std action.
McJarvis 10-18-07, 12:01 PM	in reference to this post (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=14107887#post14107887) Just because they are fiendish does not mean they lose their vermin traits - they are still immune to mind-affecting spells. You sure on that Telin? Fiendish template changes animals & vermin to magical beasts. Does a creature really "remember" what it was before changing creature types?
Rauul 10-18-07, 12:11 PM	Well Graashnak is now a Slayer.. took Favored Enemy (Psionic Human), Since the favored enemy's don't stack.. Since ecl 6-10 has exactly 4 psionic elfs and 7 psionic humans.. now to get rid of the Failure tag..
TelinArtho 10-18-07, 12:27 PM	in reference to this post (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=14107887#post14107887) You sure on that Telin? Fiendish template changes animals & vermin to magical beasts. Does a creature really "remember" what it was before changing creature types? The template specifically mentions that the creatures retains all special qualities and attacks - so the mindless trait would still be there (even with the quizzical INT3...)
McJarvis 10-18-07, 12:30 PM	The template specifically mentions that the creatures retains all special qualities and attacks - so the mindless trait would still be there (even with the quizzical INT3...) I don't think that's referring to special qualities that are inherient from the vermin type, though. If it were an aberration with the mindless descriptor it'd be different. Spiders don't have an ability called "Mindless", it's aquired from their creature type- which fiendish changes. edit- for instance, I think animals would lose low-light vision & just gain regular darkvision. [not have both]
hogarth 10-18-07, 12:30 PM	You sure on that Telin? Fiendish template changes animals & vermin to magical beasts. Does a creature really "remember" what it was before changing creature types? From the Fiendish template: "A fiendish creature retains all the special qualities of the base creature and also gains the following." And a monstrous spider has: "Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., tremorsense 60 ft., vermin traits " EDIT: ninja'd
McJarvis 10-18-07, 12:36 PM	In which case, the creature must contradict itself since fiendish sets int to at least 3 and the vermin traits require that the critter have no intelligence score. As I recall, *no* ability score is not the same as an ability score of 0, so you can't even say that an int of 3 is the "better"...or "worse" than no intelligence score. What you're suggesting doesn't make sense.
hogarth 10-18-07, 12:38 PM	In which case, the creature must contradict itself since fiendish sets int to at least 3 and the vermin traits require that the critter have no intelligence score. Good point...the Mindless trait is defined as "A and B", and we know it doesn't get "A", so should it get "B"?
Rauul 10-18-07, 12:51 PM	In which case, the creature must contradict itself since fiendish sets int to at least 3 and the vermin traits require that the critter have no intelligence score. As I recall, *no* ability score is not the same as an ability score of 0, so you can't even say that an int of 3 is the "better"...or "worse" than no intelligence score. What you're suggesting doesn't make sense. I believe with the Fiendish spider that you get from WoTC (miniture) it has -- int.. Just like undead have -- con and wearing a amulet of health don't give it a 2 con..
TelinArtho 10-18-07, 12:58 PM	Its beside the point in this round anyway - since Nigel can't move from his current location to have LOS to the room. I haven't seen anything here that convinces me that my interpretation is wrong (though it is certainly arguable that the vermin would, in fact, still have an Int of -- rather than 3).
hogarth 10-18-07, 01:10 PM	I haven't seen anything here that convinces me that my interpretation is wrong (though it is certainly arguable that the vermin would, in fact, still have an Int of -- rather than 3). I don't think anyone's interpretation is "wrong", but I do agree that it's ambiguous.
McJarvis 10-18-07, 01:10 PM	I haven't seen anything here that convinces me that my interpretation is wrong (though it is certainly arguable that the vermin would, in fact, still have an Int of -- rather than 3). The only support you have is that racial traits are sometimes listed in special qualities on a chart. I'd certainly sooner count on that being a friendly reminder than a quality that isn't dependent on them keeping the creature type, especially given the monster manual's track record on how accurate those charts are. If anything, the vermin would gain the int of 3. Look at the hellwasp swarm-> While certainly not a specific example of the fiendish template, I think it nicely outlines what is supposed to happen to vermin that have been turned into otherworldly things. They now have an intelligence, are not mindless like normal wasps would be, etc, etc. As far as the specific example that brought it up-> I obviously don't care too much what happens there :) [no motive]
whitebaron 10-18-07, 01:25 PM	I haven't seen anything here that convinces me that my interpretation is wrong (though it is certainly arguable that the vermin would, in fact, still have an Int of -- rather than 3). if any of your classes/races/templates/creature types gives you a - in a score, this can never be changed by another, later applied template, class or type.
McJarvis 10-18-07, 01:29 PM	if any of your classes/races/templates/creature types gives you a - in a score, this can never be changed by another, later applied template, class or type. I must say, I've never heard that one before. Got a source? Note that this isn't fiendish giving a +3 to int, but rather setting the int to 3.
whitebaron 10-18-07, 02:14 PM	ah, well, in that case - you don't get bonusses. setting it to plain 3 is something entirely different. this depends on the wording, and i'm not really familiar with templates - i always thought of them as a hindrance, not an advantage for the dm.
MindWandererB 10-18-07, 02:16 PM	Oh, I know there's something out there--an FAQ, an RotG, something--that explains this better. I'll try to hunt it down. However, I do know that the fiendish template does indeed change the Int score to 3; there was a WotC article with a fiendish gelatinous cube monk, which was possible only because the fiendish template gave it an Int score, which allowed it to take class levels. Edit: Found the 'cube, and it does indeed have an Int score but still benefit from being Mindless. I'll keep hunting for the rules reference, though. Edit 2: Apparently I was just thinking of the glossary definition. Creatures with the augmented subtype retain the features of its original type, but the traits of its new type.
McJarvis 10-18-07, 02:26 PM	The ooze is a bad example to follow, though, since fiendish only turns animals & vermin into magical beasts- ooze's retain their type & all abilities therin. @MWB: Vermin & Animals don't become Animal/Vermin (extraplanar) or anything. Unless they become Magical Beast (Augmented Vermin) & retain the mindless thing that way?
MindWandererB 10-18-07, 02:30 PM	Well... by the definition of the Augmented subtype, the creature uses the traits of its new type, not its original one.
Macbrea 10-18-07, 02:58 PM	Hmm, both cards for Fiendish Scorpion and Fiendish Monsterous Spider appear to have a 3 int.
hogarth 10-18-07, 03:05 PM	Hmm, both cards for Fiendish Scorpion and Fiendish Monsterous Spider appear to have a 3 int. That part seemed fairly straightforward to me. What is unclear (to me) is whether they keep half of the Mindless trait or none of it.
Luni 10-18-07, 04:29 PM	Just to chime in here. If animals and vermin become magical beasts when you apply the fiendish subtype, does that also change their BAB and saves?
McJarvis 10-18-07, 04:33 PM	Just to chime in here. If animals and vermin become magical beasts when you apply the fiendish subtype, does that also change their BAB and saves? No...when something is transformed this way by a template the attributes [saves, hd, bab, skills, etc] stay the same. Just the traits change. [if you look at types definitions you'll see what I mean. There are two different sections]
templer10 10-18-07, 05:34 PM	normally - when shooting or throwing a ranged weapon on a grappling opponent - need to roll 50-50 to see who he hits - 1)does that apply to spells that need a ranged touch attack to hit? 2)does it apply to spells that DOESNT need an attack roll to hit?
lonewolf 10-18-07, 05:38 PM	1) yes 2) No
The Dread Dormammu 10-19-07, 01:40 PM	So cursed Items can be bought here in Gladius but I assume that the owner of the cursed item gets it back after the fight is over without the need for a “remove curse” spell right?
McJarvis 10-19-07, 01:48 PM	So cursed Items can be bought here in Gladius but I assume that the owner of the cursed item gets it back after the fight is over without the need for a “remove curse” spell right? I believe so. You don't get back the expendable cursed items, of course, though.
McJarvis 10-19-07, 04:04 PM	Why do you guys suppose nobody has tried an Eldritch Knight in a long time? I did a search on the term Eldritch and everything that came up was retired from the year '05.
hogarth 10-19-07, 04:11 PM	Why do you guys suppose nobody has tried an Eldritch Knight in a long time? I did a search on the term Eldritch and everything that came up was retired from the year '05. I don't see what the appeal to Eldritch Knight is; you get a slightly higher BAB, a fighter feat, and a couple of hp in exchange for two caster levels. The Slayer prestige class blows it out of the water completely. My question is: Why don't we see more Metaminds around here? ;)
Vathelokai 10-19-07, 04:12 PM	try mispelling it as Eldrich... ;0 There was one named Morgan in the CEF and I had one (Denshi), that I retired. I think they're allright, but the character needs to be built around it from the get go (in a hurry, I'll expand my thoughts later.) Someone did the math for metamind and found that until you max the PRC, you end up with a level or two less pp.
hogarth 10-19-07, 04:15 PM	Someone did the math for metamind and found that until you max the PRC, you end up with a level or two less pp. Sorry, I thought the winking smiley-face spoke for itself. Let me rephrase myself: "Why don't we see more pure Commoner builds around here?" :P :P :P
Luni 10-19-07, 04:24 PM	Sorry, I thought the winking smiley-face spoke for itself. Let me rephrase myself: "Why don't we see more pure Commoner builds around here?" :P :P :P Probably because in a random team fight, having a commoner as your partner doesn't pas confidence. :)
hogarth 10-19-07, 04:32 PM	Is "Simple Weapon Proficiency" a reasonable feat for a druid's Ape animal companion, or is that too far out?
Eamane 10-19-07, 05:59 PM	Human Commoners can optimize running away really well! Now only if their were a mechanic that granted you victory by running away. Re: Simple Weapon Sounds reasonable to me. Opposable thumbs, magically enhanced... why not?
Salrantol 10-19-07, 06:25 PM	You guys must be too new to remember the famous unstoppable ECL 3 powerhouse, Rakkar the Reckless, Commoner 3.
Luni 10-19-07, 09:09 PM	You guys must be too new to remember the famous unstoppable ECL 3 powerhouse, Rakkar the Reckless, Commoner 3. I remember teaming up with him and getting a victory. :)
McJarvis 10-19-07, 10:27 PM	try mispelling it as Eldrich... ;0 There was one named Morgan in the CEF and I had one (Denshi), that I retired. I think they're allright, but the character needs to be built around it from the get go (in a hurry, I'll expand my thoughts later.) I'll probably be developing one to replace TIM pretty soon. As much as I like tim, I hate that he's a mounted character with a terrible ride check and no mounted combat. I have pretty extensive experience using them at table top- you just gotta learn how to take advantage of that BAB. [which is pretty much their only good feature] Someone did the math for metamind and found that until you max the PRC, you end up with a level or two less pp. That was me. Even after the last level, you only barely break even. RE: Slayer vs Eldritch Knight I don't really see the comparison. Psionic gishes and arcane gishes are two entirely different beasts. They're just too hard to draw direct lines between other than caster levels.
Sindorin 10-20-07, 02:32 AM	Out of nagging curiosity, what exactly is a 'gish'?
Eamane 10-20-07, 03:02 AM	Out of nagging curiosity, what exactly is a 'gish'? Character which performs the functions of a melee combatant and a full caster. The term is from 1st edition, where a specific race of monsters (Githzerai) had a special name for multi-classed Fighter/Wizards. That name? Gish.
hogarth 10-20-07, 10:10 AM	Out of nagging curiosity, what exactly is a 'gish'? A fighter/magic-user.
Rauul 10-20-07, 12:10 PM	Character which performs the functions of a melee combatant and a full caster. The term is from 1st edition, where a specific race of monsters (Githzerai) had a special name for multi-classed Fighter/Wizards. That name? Gish. Hey now... Gol'ie is not a Gish.. He is a Githzerai.. but someday he will have his silver sword to kill Githyanki with that come after him...
hogarth 10-20-07, 12:27 PM	RE: Slayer vs Eldritch Knight I don't really see the comparison. Psionic gishes and arcane gishes are two entirely different beasts. They're just too hard to draw direct lines between other than caster levels. I agree completely. There's no comparison between Slayer and Eldritch Knight because Eldritch Knight is lousy and Slayer is great. :) Go ahead, prove me wrong. :)
Rauul 10-20-07, 12:57 PM	I agree completely. There's no comparison between Slayer and Eldritch Knight because Eldritch Knight is lousy and Slayer is great. :) Go ahead, prove me wrong. :) Well considering Slayer class in the SRD is a mutant of the Original Illithid Slayer Prc, there is not really a comparison.. But then Again.. the way Psionics was Done.. why wouldn't it be better.. reminds me of GURPS.. every new suppliment that came it is better than the last.. Wands=6th level max Dorja's=no max limit Tatoos =1-3 powers(any)(2x cost for personnel) Potions =1-5 spells (non personnel) powerstones = scrolls With magic Transparency.. Psions can do everything better than a Wizard.. to include make Items that copy each other.. (making a psionic version of Wonderous items)
Rauul 10-20-07, 01:02 PM	new Subject.. LOL Can a Ranger with a Wis of 10, get a Periapt of Wisdom+2, to be able to cast spells??
lonewolf 10-20-07, 01:10 PM	sure @psionics vs magic: dont forget that there are many magical things that psions cannot hope to copy. Invisibility, Fly, Mirror Image, and many other great utility spells are just not available as powers(fly only to nomads). Psions are great blasters but wizards have far more different options. Not everything is perfect, but its not as black/white as some people claim that it is.
Rauul 10-20-07, 01:18 PM	Can a Psiwarrior with a Dorja of Chameleon, use it on an Ally.. Power is personnel only.. am just wondering if a Dorja makes it so it can be aimed at another...
lonewolf 10-20-07, 01:19 PM	no
SauroGrenom 10-20-07, 01:48 PM	Yea, I'm with Lonewolf on his one... Psionics has some serious weaknesses compared to magic in particular areas. Illusions are one where magic is generally better. Spells that modify your opponent's status to sleeping or nauseated are not available to a psion, when a wizard gets sleep and stinking cloud. Healing is another place where psionics can do it, but divine healing is clearly superior. Also almost every psionic save or die power is mind effecting, and that is a serious weakness. Will saves have more odd bonuses than anything else, and there are several creature types that are immune to mind effecting effects (construct, undead and mindless) Generally the psion is superior at direct damage, while the wizard is superior at interrupting the opponent's ability/tactic with various spells. A wizard works better in a party, since he can use hold person and the rogue can CDG the held foe real quick (before he makes the save next round). While the psion does better at direct damage, and that that's why the psion does so well in CoCo.
McJarvis 10-20-07, 03:37 PM	As stated: there's no solid way to directly compare psionic and arcane gishes. They do different things, with the arcane one being more of a generalist and the psionic one being more focused towards one purpose. Since I personally believe that versatility is more important than specialization in the arena, I side with arcane type gishes. [And even if you want to compare items that can be created as Raull seems to want to, craft wondrous item will blow all psionic item creation feats combined out of the water] The Eldritch Knight, while a boring class, is no pushover- even when compared to the Slayer. If the slayer is more popular here, it is probably due to the lack of originality it takes to create one :) [vigor+direct damage for the win?]
hogarth 10-20-07, 07:42 PM	The Eldritch Knight, while a boring class, is no pushover- even when compared to the Slayer. Like I said, make a successful Eldritch Knight and all my arguments will evaporate. :) I'm always amused when people vigorously argue "Option X is great" when they've never used X even once for a character in the CoCo. Likewise, it's funny to see people say "Option Y is not so great" when they've used Y many times (like Zevox arguing that Leadership is not overpowered at all).
Rauul 10-20-07, 08:06 PM	Like I said, make a successful Eldritch Knight and all my arguments will evaporate. :) I'm always amused when people vigorously argue "Option X is great" when they've never used X even once for a character in the CoCo. Likewise, it's funny to see people say "Option Y is not so great" when they've used Y many times (like Zevox arguing that Leadership is not overpowered at all). IS there an active slayer other than my failure of a half-orc??
SauroGrenom 10-20-07, 08:36 PM	IS there an active slayer other than my failure of a half-orc?? Kracknol is a slayer, and he's not doing so hot right now... Although I hope that will change soon. He just went up a level, and his new powers are going to help out a bit. Aside from him, there was a couple psion slayers around... Generally the psion slayers are tougher than the psiwarrior slayers, since they have more manifesting power to sling around.
hogarth 10-20-07, 11:46 PM	IS there an active slayer other than my failure of a half-orc?? Valen Sky and Kracknol. Nell Leonne is retired, it looks like.
Callix 10-21-07, 07:24 AM	Yet more arcane rules questions: 1. Does the Combat Riding package make a creature "trained for combat" for the purposes of the Ride skill? Is there any way to make a light horse considered "trained for combat" if the above does not work? 2. Can a druid buy a trained animal, then bond with it, avoiding 3-6 weeks of training for a small gold price? The bonus tricks, of course, would not be allowed, but otherwise part 1 would take 3 weeks of full activities just to set up.
whitebaron 10-21-07, 08:24 AM	Yet more arcane rules questions: 1. Does the Combat Riding package make a creature "trained for combat" for the purposes of the Ride skill? Is there any way to make a light horse considered "trained for combat" if the above does not work? this is the exact definition of this skill package. being a warhorse/light horse/riding dog/dire wolf is not important for this. combat riding = trained for combat. the advantages of warhorses are different - e.g. they can attack while you ride it, and you still get an action. which is impossible with a normal horse.
hogarth 10-21-07, 09:57 AM	Yet more arcane rules questions: 1. Does the Combat Riding package make a creature "trained for combat" for the purposes of the Ride skill? Is there any way to make a light horse considered "trained for combat" if the above does not work? 2. Can a druid buy a trained animal, then bond with it, avoiding 3-6 weeks of training for a small gold price? The bonus tricks, of course, would not be allowed, but otherwise part 1 would take 3 weeks of full activities just to set up. 1. I think Combat Riding = trained for combat. 2. Well, I think you could do the equivalent thing: acquire an animal companion and pay an NPC to train it for you. I think we treat NPC training as instantaneous (in practice).
TelinArtho 10-21-07, 10:00 AM	Yet more arcane rules questions: 1. Does the Combat Riding package make a creature "trained for combat" for the purposes of the Ride skill? Is there any way to make a light horse considered "trained for combat" if the above does not work? 2. Can a druid buy a trained animal, then bond with it, avoiding 3-6 weeks of training for a small gold price? The bonus tricks, of course, would not be allowed, but otherwise part 1 would take 3 weeks of full activities just to set up. Pretty much #1 has been answered. On #2 - the simple answer is no. That said - it might be worth investigating cutting down the training time for new animal companions (but not other animals). I would only consider this as a possibility - but frankly, I don't see many of the druids changing ACs after the dire bat (if that is what they chose to get).
whitebaron 10-21-07, 10:12 AM	Pretty much #1 has been answered. On #2 - the simple answer is no. That said - it might be worth investigating cutting down the training time for new animal companions (but not other animals). I would only consider this as a possibility - but frankly, I don't see many of the druids changing ACs after the dire bat (if that is what they chose to get). still. i think simply speeding up training would do some good. we have 1000 GP crafting each weak(free), instead of ~50-60. why not make it 1 trick (free) or 7 (full) ? this is the same factor as with crafting, so i think this should be ok. i'm planning on getting more than one animal for wooly via handle animal - i can never possibly train them for what i want to do with them before hitting two more levels, unless he is only training them for quite some time before reentering the arena. another question: as i am about to run the macbrea/ackermanus fight today, was the ability burn question already resolved?
hogarth 10-21-07, 10:25 AM	another question: as i am about to run the macbrea/ackermanus fight today, was the ability burn question already resolved? I thought so (it can't be healed by anything except rest, just like power point loss due to wilder's enervation), but for an official ruling you should ask in the Courtroom thread.
McJarvis 10-21-07, 10:50 AM	Like I said, make a successful Eldritch Knight and all my arguments will evaporate. :) I'm always amused when people vigorously argue "Option X is great" when they've never used X even once for a character in the CoCo. Likewise, it's funny to see people say "Option Y is not so great" when they've used Y many times (like Zevox arguing that Leadership is not overpowered at all). I think I showed pretty well the benefits of the arcane gish with the illustrated man. An eldritch knight/wizard version wouldn't be that much different. edit- I'm not sure I like the reference to Zevox, b/c unlike him I actually don't use what I was arguing for the balance of on every other character ;) [I don't think I've ever even used slayer in CoCo]
hogarth 10-21-07, 11:02 AM	I think I showed pretty well the benefits of the arcane gish with the illustrated man. An eldritch knight/wizard version wouldn't be that much different. "Arcane gish is good" does not imply "Eldritch Knight is good" any more than "Psionics is good" implies "Metamind is good". The proof is in winning fights, not posting hypotheses.
Vathelokai 10-21-07, 12:43 PM	Now you've got me thinking about eldritch knights... Would either of these work, in the opinion of the public... barbarian1, bard9 (could go at 7, but inspire greatness is nice), knight10 (maybe with dragon disciple in there) or Ranger5, assassin5, knight10 (maybe with trickster or shadow dancer in there) Then there's Cat's Ebelin, an aasimar wizard/monk/knight
SauroGrenom 10-21-07, 01:03 PM	Now you've got me thinking about eldritch knights... Would either of these work, in the opinion of the public... barbarian1, bard9 (could go at 7, but inspire greatness is nice), knight10 (maybe with dragon disciple in there) or Ranger5, assassin5, knight10 (maybe with trickster or shadow dancer in there) Then there's Cat's Ebelin, an aasimar wizard/monk/knightHmm. Generally Bard spells are not great at direct damage or save/die effects... So a bard eldritch knight would basically be a warrior type with the ability to buff himself and possibly craft wondrous items. In all that's not a bad situation to be in, but also not particularly impressive. The ranger/assassin is an interesting idea, but assassins are not the best casters either. They have spells that evade detection, preserve mobility, and that's about it. So the eldritch knight increases in CL are kind of wasted, sort of depending on the details. If you took shadow dancer or assassin to 8th, then your in a better position as basically a rogue with hide in plain sight. Sneak attack your foes, and see what you can do as a sneak with a bit higher BAB than typical. The monk class doesn't play well with others, I've tried playing a monk. Cat's character wasn't used much as far as I recall. The Monk has a bad MAD, and the Wizard on top of that with the Knight! Your basically looking at a character with all 14's across the stats. This guy is a scroll caster mostly, and a buffer. He deals damage with weapons/wands, not spells directly cast at foes, and he casts lots of buffs to get going. He doesn't wear armor, and he probably relies on rope trick or something similar to get all the buffs going then heads into melee with polymorph or alter shape. In fact, I think this character is probably an outsider polymorph build, with wand of MM or other similar wands to deal damage. The character will also be better in melee than a wizard, but not as powerful as a druid or cleric. You could do better by dropping the monk levels, and buying a monk's belt...
SauroGrenom 10-21-07, 01:16 PM	I just thought of something that could be interesting. Some kind of psionic rogue or assassin that delivers sneak attacks with deep impact or fell shot. I could imagine something like rogue 2/psiwarrior3/assassin 10 for a few bonus psionic feats and you can aim for death attacks and sneak attacks as touch attacks. The idea is similar to Hogarth's Nettlesong, except it's based on feats instead of a weird custom magic item.
Rauul 10-21-07, 01:53 PM	I just thought of something that could be interesting. Some kind of psionic rogue or assassin that delivers sneak attacks with deep impact or fell shot. I could imagine something like rogue 2/psiwarrior3/assassin 10 for a few bonus psionic feats and you can aim for death attacks and sneak attacks as touch attacks. The idea is similar to Hogarth's Nettlesong, except it's based on feats instead of a weird custom magic item. Acually... maybe a Feasible path for a Soulknife...
SauroGrenom 10-21-07, 02:10 PM	Acually... maybe a Feasible path for a Soulknife... Thing is that a path like that is very feat intensive. It's going to be hard to squeeze in enough feats to get the fell shot string @ ECL7-8 or so. A psiwarrior gets those bonus feats early on, and that could help lots. Also manifesting a few powers from stones could be useful. One thought is that a guy like this would need to resist the temptation to take psicrystal, crystal containment and psionic meditation. Those feats are usually necessary for a deep impact build, but for a sneak you're sniping with 1/round. So then you have time to recover focus at your leisure. You could do it with a soulknife, but it would be even harder. The soulknife, monk and duelist all suffer from diminished equipment. Yea, that would be tough.
whitebaron 10-21-07, 02:18 PM	@sauro: if you want to go touch attacks - just take two levels of psychic warrior, with psionic weapon/deep impact. and as a bonus, just use the martial weapon proficiency gained from it for a bigger weapon. fancy an assassin with a greatsword? and another bonus: get chameleon "for free" ... ;)
Vathelokai 10-21-07, 02:19 PM	Hmm. Generally Bard spells are not great at direct damage or save/die effects... So a bard eldritch knight would basically be a warrior type with the ability to buff himself and possibly craft wondrous items. In all that's not a bad situation to be in, but also not particularly impressive. I was thinking along the lines of using lots of wands, maybe getting craft wands. having cure spells with most of the good buffs seems a good option to me. Having UMD isn't bad either. Also, UA variants could work out. It's a thought. Just getting kind of bored with the greyelf wizard/fighter version and the assimar wizard version.
SauroGrenom 10-21-07, 02:36 PM	I was thinking along the lines of using lots of wands, maybe getting craft wands. having cure spells with most of the good buffs seems a good option to me. Having UMD isn't bad either. Also, UA variants could work out. It's a thought. Just getting kind of bored with the greyelf wizard/fighter version and the assimar wizard version. Healing and being a utility box is great and all, but it's not all that great in the CoCo setting. Mind you that in a campaign, your could make a very popular and successful character with that idea. At any level cure spells heal at a rate behind the damage output of the best attacks. However in the arena, ever battle is basically a race to see which guy dishes the most damage fastest. So healing usually means you slide farther and farther behind, it just slows the inevitable. Sneaks succeed when they mess with the other guy's ability to hurt them, ie they dramatically decrease the other guy's damage output. Psions do so well because they have the highest intrinsic damage output. Clerics and Druids fit in there with good damage output, and some other eclectic spell effects that neutralize the opponent's abilities. Warriors work best by interrupting the opponent's preparation, and being ready to dish significant damage in round 1 (thus getting a head start). My point is that if you're actively going for something different, it needs to somehow interact with the damage output equilibrium in a way that lends your character an advantage. You may have something in mind that I don't see, but at first blush the idea of a bard/eldritch knight strikes me as being suboptimal on the damage equilibrium struggle that determines victory in a battle.
Callix 10-21-07, 04:42 PM	I'm just going to put this out there and see if it's legal. Please point out which options aren't legal. Primary Path 1. I buy a light horse. Since the rules say light horses usually come trained, I buy one trained in Combat Riding. 2. I perform the druid bonding ritual on the horse I bought, making it my animal companion. He doesn't forget the tricks he already knows, but now can learn new ones. 3. My horse is now trained for war. This means that, when ridden in combat, I don't need to roll to control my mount. Secondary Path (if light horses always cost you actions) 1. I start with a camel animal companion. 2. I spend 3 weeks of full activities to give it the Combat Riding package. 3. My camel is now trained for war. It can attack with me, and I don't need to roll to control my mount in combat. You can see why I'd rather the primary path, but which, if any, are legal?
whitebaron 10-21-07, 04:51 PM	just because wooly didn't do it, doesn't mean you can't generally do it - your character can start, with all the tricks you want to have him, trained to your animal companion. this is because it is assumed you spent as much time as you'd like for crafting/taming etc before he entered coco. so, if you make a new lvl 20 character, you could start with a 100.000 gold item, crafted by yourself, without need for 15 weeks to do this...
Callix 10-21-07, 04:58 PM	Thanks, Whitebaron. Does anyone know if the light horse will still cost me actions, even when trained for combat? If so, I'll probably use a camel and shared scrolls of Longstrider, but an extra 10ft of speed would be nice for my build. Maybe even nicer than a +0 bite attack for 1d4+2 ;)
whitebaron 10-21-07, 05:09 PM	Thanks, Whitebaron. Does anyone know if the light horse will still cost me actions, even when trained for combat? If so, I'll probably use a camel and shared scrolls of Longstrider, but an extra 10ft of speed would be nice for my build. Maybe even nicer than a +0 bite attack for 1d4+2 ;) you don't need the move action to control a combat-riding mount. but: you won't be able to have the horse attack and take an action yourself. it's either you, or your horse, that's why you get a warhorse, to be able to act both. ah, and i forgot: if you buy a light horse, you need to pay extra for the combat-riding package, as it is usually trained for work, not combat.
Callix 10-21-07, 05:17 PM	Nah, I'll just train it myself at creation. Thanks for pointing out that I can do that. As for the bite attack, that's the upside of a camel, not a horse. I won't be using it. Thanks for all your help. Final Path: 1. Get a light horse companion. 2. Train it in Combat Riding "at creation". 3. Have an in-combat mount :)
McJarvis 10-21-07, 07:45 PM	"Arcane gish is good" does not imply "Eldritch Knight is good" any more than "Psionics is good" implies "Metamind is good". The proof is in winning fights, not posting hypotheses. I think you're overeager to try and make a point here. Using TIM's tactics as guidelines, Battle Sorcerer is to a vanilla EK build as an energy ray/vigor-monkey Nomad is to the same type of Egoist. Sure there are differences, but I don't think anyone here would really doubt that those differences would make or break a GR character. I'm even more shocked that you would imply that class features matter in this regard- and that you seem to think seeing characters in action "prove" that a particular class/feat combination works. Quality of player is far more important than quality of class features, and you of all people should know that.
McJarvis 10-21-07, 07:58 PM	Now you've got me thinking about eldritch knights... Would either of these work, in the opinion of the public... barbarian1, bard9 (could go at 7, but inspire greatness is nice), knight10 (maybe with dragon disciple in there) When I build characters based on prestige classes I look at the prestige class features & pick something that goes good with them. EK gives full BAB and almost-full caster levels/spell progression. So you want someone who will use their BAB often and make good use of +caster levels. Bard's don't really do either of these. In addition, EK levels strip bard's of their skills & upgraded music, which IMO is the biggest draws to bards in the first place. Ranger5, assassin5, knight10 (maybe with trickster or shadow dancer in there) This is the best of the three you mentioned, though I'll just throw a pointer to Sauro's comments on the validity of CoCo builds here and be done with it. Then there's Cat's Ebelin, an aasimar wizard/monk/knight While getting wis to AC is attractive, I don't think it's the best thing out there. Primary weakness of EK builds is a loss of character levels- the only way I would sacrifice [I]more caster levels is to grab two levels of paladin. Which reminds me, I believe Mithos of Zevox's was going to be an EK.
Erithmu 10-21-07, 08:13 PM	On Elebin I'm pretty sure the idea was to throw up an AMF and go grappling vs casters, and then use the magic on the rest of the people.
SauroGrenom 10-21-07, 08:24 PM	On Elebin I'm pretty sure the idea was to throw up an AMF and go grappling vs casters, and then use the magic on the rest of the people. Well, my half red dragon treant with the wizard cohort can do that even better... ;)
Eamane 10-21-07, 11:02 PM	Well, my half red dragon treant with the wizard cohort can do that even better... ;) <insert Ranger/Assassin build with sneak attack Ambush pack here> Cohort? What cohort? And if I wasn't on a pure caster kick, I'd so make a ranger assassin/EK. It just oozes cool.
Rauul 10-22-07, 12:28 AM	<insert Ranger/Assassin build with sneak attack Ambush pack here> Cohort? What cohort? Ranger/Assassin would have their animal follower... But yes.. ranger Assassin is a Feasible build, Ranger/Assassin/EK is also.. Except min level assassin to cast 3rd level spells is 6th... so level 13 before you start EK... 14-15 if you add 1-2 levels of shadowdancer..
Vathelokai 10-22-07, 01:08 AM	Eldritch Knights: Pick one type of spell caster... bard7 wiz5 sorc6 assassin5 (only ranger has the skills to get assassin, really)then add one or more levels of barbarian, fighter, ranger, paladin, aasimar, tiefling, or psiwarrior. Things from Unearthed Arcana Dwarf, Orc, and Half-Orc paragons are prof. with all martial weapons though none add caster lv. Bardic sage gets one extra div spell per spell level. Battle sorcerer Urban or Planar ranger adds style (but not much else) to a ranger/assassin buildSeason to taste with PrCs.
McJarvis 10-22-07, 11:24 AM	Is any formal action required to sub-out druid animal companions inbetween cycles?
hogarth 10-22-07, 11:32 AM	Is any formal action required to sub-out druid animal companions inbetween cycles? No, but the new one arrives only knowing any animal companion bonus tricks so it must be trained (either using full activities or an NPC trainer).
McJarvis 10-22-07, 11:49 AM	ECL 3 & 4 are still completely unaffected by light-dependent effects, right? [Light Sensitivity has no bearing on combat?]
Rauul 10-22-07, 01:44 PM	ECL 3 & 4 are still completely unaffected by light-dependent effects, right? [Light Sensitivity has no bearing on combat?] as far as i know.. yup
McJarvis 10-22-07, 02:09 PM	Eldritch Knights: Pick one type of spell caster... bard7 wiz5 sorc6 assassin5 (only ranger has the skills to get assassin, really)then add one or more levels of barbarian, fighter, ranger, paladin, aasimar, tiefling, or psiwarrior. Things from Unearthed Arcana Dwarf, Orc, and Half-Orc paragons are prof. with all martial weapons though none add caster lv. Bardic sage gets one extra div spell per spell level. Battle sorcerer Urban or Planar ranger adds style (but not much else) to a ranger/assassin buildSeason to taste with PrCs. It is probably worth noting that how you get to be an Eldritch Knight is about as important as what race of druid you are. Sure- it'll decide whether you're God-awful awesome[Halfling] or downright retarded[fiendish?], but the core of what makes or breaks a character is how you use those class features. There's a big difference between a halfling produce flame-r and a halfling magic stone-r.
McJarvis 10-22-07, 03:27 PM	Of course, there is a reason (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14141867&postcount=1251) why I was asking in the first place. Should be a bit less of a glass-cannon than TIM is. Scribe scrolls is really a boon... Regardless, no need to look for errors I guess. I'm still polishing him...just have him up early so I can get credit approval before wednesday
templer10 10-22-07, 03:34 PM	I need a reminder - Monks with deflect arrows Always have one hand free - correct?
Erithmu 10-22-07, 04:03 PM	I need a reminder - Monks with deflect arrows Always have one hand free - correct? 95% of the time ... You can ready to attack them when they perform an action that requires 2 hands (reload xbow, fire a bow, attack w/ 2H weapon, etc)
Eamane 10-22-07, 04:04 PM	I need a reminder - Monks with deflect arrows Always have one hand free - correct? Depends. If they are in the middle of doing something else that requires two hands; no. If it's after they've done something else, it is usually 'reasonable pitlord interpretation' to switch to holding something in one hand so they can deflect. This most often comes up with monks using bows, but there is still a window where they can be shot, but it requires a readied action on the part of the shooter; which as it turns out is not usually 'reasonable pitlord interpretation'.
hogarth 10-22-07, 04:15 PM	Of course, there is a reason (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14141867&postcount=1251) why I was asking in the first place. Should be a bit less of a glass-cannon than TIM is. Scribe scrolls is really a boon... Regardless, no need to look for errors I guess. I'm still polishing him...just have him up early so I can get credit approval before wednesday Don't forget -- you'll probably have to pay for your camel's training except for the one bonus trick.
McJarvis 10-22-07, 04:15 PM	Don't forget -- you'll probably have to pay for your camel's training except for the one bonus trick. Nod. I already have a gp surplus anyway. I feel kinda good that I'm finally using some excess credits- I was really at a loss of what to spend them on for a while there. [Ally nerfing killed the succubi-charisma chief I was saving up to purchase. Man she was gonna rock. Though frankly- I'm glad we just fixed the allies before I had a chance to do my damage]
whitebaron 10-22-07, 05:00 PM	I need a reminder - Monks with deflect arrows Always have one hand free - correct? nope, they don't. and i'm stupid, as i reread my tactics and have not always a hand free (:doh:) . but ok. i'll have my hands full in some of the buffing rounds. basic question concerning this: can an opponent actually see this from long range?
McJarvis 10-22-07, 05:44 PM	Of course, there is a reason (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14141867&postcount=1251) why I was asking in the first place. Should be a bit less of a glass-cannon than TIM is. Scribe scrolls is really a boon... Regardless, no need to look for errors I guess. I'm still polishing him...just have him up early so I can get credit approval before wednesday Concerning this build- Anyone have advice on which weapon to make adamantine? I've never really done a sunder-build before, [PvM I find it weak] but at tabletop this build uses things like Improved Initiative- which had to be replaced with something.
TelinArtho 10-22-07, 05:57 PM	Concerning this build- Anyone have advice on which weapon to make adamantine? I've never really done a sunder-build before, [PvM I find it weak] but at tabletop this build uses things like Improved Initiative- which had to be replaced with something. Both the glaive and waraxe have the same base damage - so either one would work just as well. In some circumstances reach can be a problem (in hampered terrain and in melee - so you can't take a 5ft step away), so the waraxe might be marginally better (though the opposite can happen as well...). Obviously not the lance - since it can't sunder.
Vathelokai 10-22-07, 06:18 PM	Of course, there is a reason (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14141867&postcount=1251) why I was asking in the first place. Should be a bit less of a glass-cannon than TIM is. Scribe scrolls is really a boon... Regardless, no need to look for errors I guess. I'm still polishing him...just have him up early so I can get credit approval before wednesday Unless something changed, the animal companion variant is for sorcerers. I wouldn't be averse to changing to all familiar types, but that isn't currently the rule.
whitebaron 10-22-07, 06:57 PM	Simple Variant A sorcerer or wizard might desire a more durable companion to accompany him on excursions into the wilderness. Gain Animal companion (as druid; treat sorcerer or wizard as a druid ofhalf his class level). Lose Familiar. is this disallowed in coco? it clearly states in the srd that it's either wizard or sorcerer.
Vathelokai 10-22-07, 07:12 PM	I don't have UA; I was just going off the posted house rules in the rules thread. If you're right, then we should add that.
whitebaron 10-22-07, 07:41 PM	I don't have UA; I was just going off the posted house rules in the rules thread. If you're right, then we should add that. gladly,its online: http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedCoreClass.html#simple-sorcerer
Vathelokai 10-22-07, 07:49 PM	I do remember Cat saying that he was changing some things for balance reasons, but I don't believe this one was mentioned. I wouldn't be surprised if there were a couple more small tweaks like that. The origional wording has my vote. I think the rules of gladius version needs changed.
Rauul 10-22-07, 08:10 PM	I do remember Cat saying that he was changing some things for balance reasons, but I don't believe this one was mentioned. I wouldn't be surprised if there were a couple more small tweaks like that. The origional wording has my vote. I think the rules of gladius version needs changed. Acually it's listed under Sor varient but the wording still saids Sor or Wizard A sorcerer or wizard might desire a more durable companion to accompany him on excursions into the wilderness. He may not take or possess any druid levels. Gain: Animal companion (as druid; treat sorcerer or wizard as a druid of half his class level). Lose: Familiar.
hogarth 10-22-07, 08:39 PM	Is there an approved way of setting a character's title line to be active for multi-week activities without resetting the line every week? I'll be gone for the next two pairings and I'd like to do some training for Treetall's new ape animal companion.
MindWandererB 10-22-07, 10:15 PM	Is there an approved way of setting a character's title line to be active for multi-week activities without resetting the line every week? I'll be gone for the next two pairings and I'd like to do some training for Treetall's new ape animal companion. Not officially, but I usually just leave the [X] and increment the week count until you're on your last week. It's far more common that a character will craft straight through without interruption than to miss a week in the middle, so I assume that and just double-check to make sure that's what's being done.
Vathelokai 10-22-07, 11:37 PM	Could the public take a look over KusariGama before I throw her into the arena? Thanks. Also, Unholy Ninja will most likely be questing in the next month for some undead allies. Anyone interested? Is there a rule on how many of these undead I can get from one quest? Like 30 skeleton warriors? More?
Rauul 10-23-07, 12:20 AM	Could the public take a look over KusariGama before I throw her into the arena? Thanks. Also, Unholy Ninja will most likely be questing in the next month for some undead allies. Anyone interested? Is there a rule on how many of these undead I can get from one quest? Like 30 skeleton warriors? More? ecl= cr of undead.. so miniquest= ecl, quest= ecl x3 i think...
Callix 10-23-07, 06:20 AM	Proudly presenting Shaela of the Rooftops! Comments and criticisms appreciated, especially if I've messed the skills up. I had to keep rechecking and redoing them. Basic idea is to pick up a few custom items instead if UMD, and sneak attack away, using the packages to try and ensure stealth and first strike.
hogarth 10-23-07, 06:41 AM	Proudly presenting Shaela of the Rooftops! Comments and criticisms appreciated, especially if I've messed the skills up. I had to keep rechecking and redoing them. Basic idea is to pick up a few custom items instead if UMD, and sneak attack away, using the packages to try and ensure stealth and first strike. I don't know if Improved Initiative will be useful that often; maybe on the Plains or on some of the smaller maps.
Callix 10-23-07, 07:22 AM	I don't know if Improved Initiative will be useful that often; maybe on the Plains or on some of the smaller maps. The only other feat I can see worth taking is Skill Focus (Gather Information). Any other ideas?
Sjiggie 10-23-07, 07:27 AM	Why not Far Shot it will increase the range of our bow to 105 feet instead of 70
Callix 10-23-07, 07:30 AM	Why not Far Shot it will increase the range of our bow to 105 feet instead of 70 Because I'll want to get within 30ft whenever possible. The character's not really an archer first; she's a sneak attack alpha striker. Hence the equal Str & Dex, and the morningstar.
Salrantol 10-23-07, 07:33 AM	Shaela of the Rooftops hears some interesting rumours about a drunken bard with unusual magic gear. Tracking down first the musician, then his favourite vintage, she eventually persuades him to sell her the following: Hat of Trustworthiness +2: This broad-brimmed hat exudes an aura of trustworthiness, encouraging others to confide in the wearer. It grants a +2 Competence bonus to Gather Information checks. Price = Bonus2*100 = 400 gp. Shaela will use 2 weeks of Gather Information to negate the 5 credit cost (renamed Third Eye Gather with different numerical bonus, 238*2=476).You'd be better off with a custom +skill item, since a third eye gather is a face item, not a head item, so you'd get hit with a +50% surcharge for switching slots, if it's based on the third eye, that's not there if you just have a custom +skill item for your head.
Salrantol 10-23-07, 07:47 AM	Also, Unholy Ninja will most likely be questing in the next month for some undead allies. Anyone interested? Is there a rule on how many of these undead I can get from one quest? Like 30 skeleton warriors? More?Looking at Unholy Ninja at ECL 5 and level 1 warrior skeletons at CR 1/3... The encounter table doesn't include how many CR 1/3 creatures it takes to challenge an ECL 5 party, so we'll put 2 EL 3 encounters together and get 14-18 warrior skeletons with one ECL 5 MQ, or 20-24 if you wait until he levels. Then, of course, since you'll obviously not be casting animate dead from memory, we get back into the "how many HD of undead can you command if you use a scroll to animate them" question...or if you level and add a cleric level, you can command undead 2 1HD warriors.
Callix 10-23-07, 07:48 AM	You'd be better off with a custom +skill item, since a third eye gather is a face item, not a head item, so you'd get hit with a +50% surcharge for switching slots, if it's based on the third eye, that's not there if you just have a custom +skill item for your head. Thanks, edited. I'm new at all of this stuff :)
hogarth 10-23-07, 08:43 AM	The only other feat I can see worth taking is Skill Focus (Gather Information). Any other ideas? Not sure. Reckless Offense, maybe?
lonewolf 10-23-07, 01:08 PM	How much hp does a scroll have? familiars trying to sunder scrolls.... EDIT: it says 2hp/inch of thickness. does that mean minimum 2hp, or should it be 1hp since a scroll will surely be less than an inch thick?
Macbrea 10-23-07, 01:10 PM	There you go, A scroll has AC 9, 1 hit point, hardness 0, and a break DC of 8.
TelinArtho 10-23-07, 01:11 PM	Read in the description for scrolls: A scroll has AC 9, 1 hit point, hardness 0, and a break DC of 8.
lonewolf 10-23-07, 01:13 PM	ty
Rauul 10-23-07, 01:14 PM	Question... How many credits would it cost... to have a Hand of Glory made.. that instead of daylight 1/day, it gets Blacklight 1/day (both level 3 evocation spells) This mummified human hand hangs by a leather cord around a character’s neck (taking up space as a magic necklace would). If a magic ring is placed on one of the fingers of the hand, the wearer benefits from the ring as if wearing it herself, and it does not count against her two-ring limit. The hand can wear only one ring at a time. Even without a ring, the hand itself allows its wearer to use daylight and see invisibility each once per day. Faint varied; CL 5th; Craft Wondrous Item, animate dead, daylight, see invisibility; Price 8,000 gp; Weight 2 lb. to this.... This mummified human hand hangs by a leather cord around a character’s neck (taking up space as a magic necklace would). If a magic ring is placed on one of the fingers of the hand, the wearer benefits from the ring as if wearing it herself, and it does not count against her two-ring limit. The hand can wear only one ring at a time. Even without a ring, the hand itself allows its wearer to use Barklight and see invisibility each once per day. Faint varied; CL 5th; Craft Wondrous Item, animate dead, Blacklight, see invisibility; Price 8,000 gp; Weight 2 lb.
TelinArtho 10-23-07, 01:16 PM	It would still be a custom item - so 15 credits. Note that the short duration of Blacklight makes the second item a lot less useful in my opinion (5 rounds versus the 50 minutes for daylight...) and since it is only 1/day it really isn't all that nice... Situationally of course, it could be very useful.
Rauul 10-23-07, 01:19 PM	It would still be a custom item - so 15 credits. Note that the short duration of Blacklight makes the second item a lot less useful in my opinion (5 rounds versus the 50 minutes for daylight...) and since it is only 1/day it really isn't all that nice... Situationally of course, it could be very useful. now what good is daylight to my half-orc..... dang thought it would only be 5 credits do to just changing 1 spell... o-well will just keep daylight....
lonewolf 10-23-07, 01:19 PM	another question: Character A readies to shoot on Character B on spellcasting. Character B has Sanctuary running and starts casting an offensive spell. Does Character A have to save against sanctuary to attack, or is it already broken?
TelinArtho 10-23-07, 01:24 PM	In other news - part of what is in real life that is keeping me busy is that I am working on a new campaign. My last one was a 3.0 campaign that foundered because one of the four members was working too much (he was working directly on DDO and this coincided with the release of said product and the months preceding it). Since he was the only melee character, the party really struggled to keep things going. In any case, his time is a little better organized, so I'm getting the old group together for a new, 3.5 game. Still in the planning stages, but I'm already loving the party composition... 1. Goblin Bard - I've talked this over extensively with the player and he's pretty sure on this one. Although he hasn't statted out the character yet, he did send along a quick background to work with. 2. Elf Sorceress - this player tends to stay in one area - Elf Sorcerers. She has mentioned perhaps playing a ranger or something along those lines - but at the moment - Elf Sorceress... 3. Dwarf Necromancer - this is the player that had to dip out in the last campaign. He is probably going to miss a session here and there. 4. Druid - this is the newest player of the group. He is also toying around with an archer or a sorcerer. There are two other slots that may or may not be filled (still waiting on responses from the players if they are interested in the game), but the group so far is certainly... interesting...
TelinArtho 10-23-07, 01:25 PM	another question: Character A readies to shoot on Character B on spellcasting. Character B has Sanctuary running and starts casting an offensive spell. Does Character A have to save against sanctuary to attack, or is it already broken? Since Character A's action interrupts Character B's action - yes he still has to make the saving throw.
templer10 10-23-07, 01:27 PM	another question: Character A readies to shoot on Character B on spellcasting. Character B has Sanctuary running and starts casting an offensive spell. Does Character A have to save against sanctuary to attack, or is it already broken? He has to save vs teh sanctuary Since a readied action takes place in time BEFORE the action that triggered it. from the SRD: "You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character." bit of a wierd time loop there - but that's the rule.
Macbrea 10-23-07, 01:37 PM	Got a question related to a special item wether it is allowed? This pair of blood red gauntlets radiate a purple eldritch glow. Creatures touched by the gauntlets take 2d8+3 negative energy damage. Will save DC 12 for half. Undead touched by these gauntlets are healed that much. Faint necromancy; CL 3rd; Craft wonderous, Inflict moderate wounds; Price 12,000 gp
TelinArtho 10-23-07, 01:46 PM	I'm not sure there Macbrea... price is a little low for the ability to always make touch attacks for a decent amount of damage. Just a note - the Will DC should probably be DC13 (SL2 + 1 (Wis12 minimum)). Your price there is 2*3*2000gp (continuous). The spell doesn't really have a duration (discharge), but would probably be best priced as a "1 round/level" spell effect - and therefore multiply the cost by 4. Compare the item to existing items - Circlet of Blasting: 6480gp for a 1/day 3rd level spell effect. Yours is only 2nd level but continuous - and therefore much more powerful. 48000gp would probably be my vote on a starting price.
Erithmu 10-23-07, 01:57 PM	I'm semi-inclined to think that the item should not be approved ... The trick here is not so much the damage inflicted but the ability to heal at will ... like say ... lich wizard? ...
SauroGrenom 10-23-07, 01:57 PM	Got a question related to a special item wether it is allowed? This pair of blood red gauntlets radiate a purple eldritch glow. Creatures touched by the gauntlets take 2d8+3 negative energy damage. Will save DC 12 for half. Undead touched by these gauntlets are healed that much. Faint necromancy; CL 3rd; Craft wonderous, Inflict moderate wounds; Price 12,000 gp OK. On it's face the idea isn't a bad one. However I'm not sure how to price such a thing. You've calculated it as a use activated wondrous item with a CL3 and spell level 2. But the base spell has a duration of instantaneous. So I don't think it's eligable for the continuous use or use activated thing. That only lists things like spells with a duration of rounds/level or longer. Instantaneous is shorter duration than round/level and round/level multiplies the cost by 4. So I'm not sure this item is legal at all, and furthermore the price is probably 4 times too low in the least.
Macbrea 10-23-07, 01:58 PM	Hmm, might be worth it at 48k. I am about to make Relanex into a lich. Well, as soon as I get the 23 credits to do so. And get him out of his cycle. This will give him all the gold between 10th to 14th. So, a set of gloves for that price might be worth getting. Though that would be another 15 credits.... heh.. It may have to wait.
Sindorin 10-23-07, 02:24 PM	Got a question related to a special item wether it is allowed? This pair of blood red gauntlets radiate a purple eldritch glow. Creatures touched by the gauntlets take 2d8+3 negative energy damage. Will save DC 12 for half. Undead touched by these gauntlets are healed that much. Faint necromancy; CL 3rd; Craft wonderous, Inflict moderate wounds; Price 12,000 gp How the heck does one put these on?!
Rauul 10-23-07, 02:24 PM	Hmm, might be worth it at 48k. I am about to make Relanex into a lich. Well, as soon as I get the 23 credits to do so. And get him out of his cycle. This will give him all the gold between 10th to 14th. So, a set of gloves for that price might be worth getting. Though that would be another 15 credits.... heh.. It may have to wait. I would suggest maybe a 6/day (2 per fight) use item.. cost would be (2x3x1800) x 1.2=12,960 gp
Rauul 10-23-07, 02:31 PM	Well setting both my ECL 6's active... lets see the teams activate... in Darkness.. Pitch black... :)
MindWandererB 10-23-07, 02:40 PM	Hmm, might be worth it at 48k. I am about to make Relanex into a lich. Well, as soon as I get the 23 credits to do so. And get him out of his cycle. This will give him all the gold between 10th to 14th. So, a set of gloves for that price might be worth getting. Though that would be another 15 credits.... heh.. It may have to wait. An unlimited-use healing item should never be permitted, IMO. It's just too abusable (especially in TT D&D--and if something isn't allowed in TT it shouldn't be allowed here).
McJarvis 10-23-07, 02:59 PM	An unlimited-use healing item should never be permitted, IMO. It's just too abusable (especially in TT D&D--and if something isn't allowed in TT it shouldn't be allowed here). Note that the language in it doesn't say "you may make a touch attack to...", but rather "creatures touched by it take...". It seems that a lich wearing this item would effectively gain fast healing 2d8+3??
waywreth 10-23-07, 03:18 PM	Two quick questions - 1. Did the ruling about leveling mid cycle and getting 1/3 of the new spells/powerpoints added to your usable total for the following weeks get approved, and if so, anyone have a link? 2. How do the saves on a dire animal companion improve if they gain 2 HD (from 4 HD to 6 HD)? Thanks,
hogarth 10-23-07, 03:29 PM	Two quick questions - 1. Did the ruling about leveling mid cycle and getting 1/3 of the new spells/powerpoints added to your usable total for the following weeks get approved, and if so, anyone have a link? 2. How do the saves on a dire animal companion improve if they gain 2 HD (from 4 HD to 6 HD)? Thanks, 1. If you level in your first fight of the cycle, your "1/3" limit is based on the new maximum for the second fight, but otherwise you don't get any extra until the third fight (where you get the remainder). 2. Dire animals get all good saves.
lonewolf 10-23-07, 04:00 PM	how do I calculate the price and weight for collossal arrows? Double each for each size category above medium?
Eamane 10-23-07, 04:19 PM	how do I calculate the price and weight for collossal arrows? Double each for each size category above medium? Yep. Medium = 1, Large = 2, Huge = 4, Etc. If you are doing this for Telekinetic Thrust purposes, I recommend Crossbow Bolts instead.
lonewolf 10-23-07, 04:25 PM	thanks another question: How does the Rod of Absorbtion interact with the magic/psionics transperency? Can you use it to negate powers? Can you use the energy stored within to manifest powers?
Nurlithion 10-23-07, 05:13 PM	Hey, I've got yet another new character here. Can someone please look it over? Thanks in advance.
McJarvis 10-23-07, 05:16 PM	Hey, I've got yet another new character here. Can someone please look it over? Thanks in advance. Personally- so long as you can take the weight, I'd get more arrows. It's kind of a "why not" kind of policy...never know when you'll be drawn into an archery contest.
Nurlithion 10-23-07, 05:20 PM	Will do. Just thought that two maces, two shortswords, a greatsword, a bow and 60 arrows would be enough. What was I thinking? :P Anything else?
Vathelokai 10-23-07, 06:15 PM	Hmm, might be worth it at 48k. I am about to make Relanex into a lich. Well, as soon as I get the 23 credits to do so. And get him out of his cycle. This will give him all the gold between 10th to 14th. So, a set of gloves for that price might be worth getting. Though that would be another 15 credits.... heh.. It may have to wait. Try making it 50 charges; if I remember right it comes out to twice the cost of a wand of CMW (~9,000gp I think). I'd throw in a note about being able to (not?) use the gloves and the paralyze touch attack at the same time.
Taureus_Drakken 10-23-07, 08:43 PM	I am making a new character to introduce either this week or next week, and i can't find the basis for self-crafting armor, weapons, etc. IIRC items are crafted at half the market value of the item. Example: A self-crafted chain shirt would be: 75 gp. Am I correct? ¬Taureus¬
Sjiggie 10-23-07, 09:15 PM	If you are making a standard chain shirt it would be 50gp 100/2=50 with a craft DC of 14 If you are making a masterwork chain shirt the cost would be 125gp 250/2=125 with a craft DC of 20 for masterwork. -Sjiggie
Taureus_Drakken 10-23-07, 09:58 PM	Ah yes. I was AFB, and didn't think to check the SRD... So a character with a +11 in three crafting skills (armor), (weapons), & (X-bows) could have all starting armor, weapons, and X-bows at half the listed price... Dragonhide Heavy Shield: 340/2 = 170 Mithral Breatplate: 4350/2 = 2175 Mwk Rapier: 320/2 = 160 Mwk Heavy Crossbow: 350/2 = 174 Is that correct? ¬Taureus¬
Vathelokai 10-23-07, 11:50 PM	Ah yes. I was AFB, and didn't think to check the SRD... So a character with a +11 in three crafting skills (armor), (weapons), & (X-bows) could have all starting armor, weapons, and X-bows at half the listed price... Dragonhide Heavy Shield: 340/2 = 170 Mithral Breatplate: 4350/2 = 2175 Mwk Rapier: 320/2 = 160 Mwk Heavy Crossbow: 350/2 = 174 Is that correct? ¬Taureus¬ I think you're right on the prices... but note that xbows are made with craft:weapons. See the chart (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/craft.htm), for which skill you need and what DC.
Taureus_Drakken 10-24-07, 12:45 AM	Thanks Vath! That makes things more clear, and less complicated. Only needing two skills for making weapons is better than needing three!! That means I can set aside a third craft for making money!!:D Looks like my drow barbarian :hides: will have to wait until next week to finish though...I work all day tomorrow, and still have a a few more things to iron out. Goodnight CoCo! ¬Taureus¬
Vathelokai 10-24-07, 01:34 AM	Night! Can't wait to see this drow barbarian... get anihilated by Tweak!
Taureus_Drakken 10-24-07, 01:41 AM	I look forward to it. :devil: Well I slugged my way through... Psori (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14155715&postcount=1254) is awaiting approval. I can't see anything glaringly wrong...But I have been wrong before... ¬Taureus¬
Eamane 10-24-07, 03:30 AM	A new necromancer is on the block. Cower in fear of Tzimosica (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14156144&postcount=1255). Probably not active this week though, as I missed the Blackmarket post. Re: Psori You need 5 ranks to earn money with craft. Mithril breastplate only has ACP of 1. The shield has 0 as well, so it's not adding em together. You don't need a certain number of ranks to craft weapons/armor (well, aside from 1, since it's trained only), so you can take 1 point out of each of those. Crossbows may be made with Weaponsmithing, but Bolts are made with Bowyer/Fletching, so you cant self-create those with your current distribution. 1 point in bowyer/fletcher will let you do so however, with your +5 int mod. Add loading your Crossbow to your prefight actions. Pick up a sling and add loading it with an improvised stone to your prefight actions. A sling means never running out of ammunition, ever. Plus, its free and weightless.
Callix 10-24-07, 03:30 AM	I look forward to it. :devil: Well I slugged my way through... Psori (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14155715&postcount=1254) is awaiting approval. I can't see anything glaringly wrong...But I have been wrong before... ¬Taureus¬ Swim takes double ACP; it should be -4, not -2. On less rules-oriented aspect, more crossbow bolts might be nice. You have gold and carrying capacity, so why run out? Also, what exactly is this build going to do? That's a stellar Intelligence for a Barbarian, but it's not doing you much good at ECL 3. It might be a road paved with losses for a little while...
lonewolf 10-24-07, 05:02 AM	Anyone planning to get his character to ECL 13 anytime soon? Im itching to try out Samuels new toys... :schemes:
Callix 10-24-07, 06:15 AM	Anyone planning to get his character to ECL 13 anytime soon? Im itching to try out Samuels new toys... :schemes: Define "soon". Ralein will get there as soon as he can, if he stays competitive. He goes to ECL5 this week, win or lose. He's bought his lantern.
templer10 10-24-07, 06:41 AM	Anyone planning to get his character to ECL 13 anytime soon? Im itching to try out Samuels new toys... :schemes: Ill activate one or Both ECL 12's this week - depend if i get time to edit - So around 2-3 weeks i imagine. on the other hand If i remmber correctly- you dont really LIKE to face one of my psions lol... btw- speaking of high levels - note the power- Reddopsi - Spell turning with no limit?:confused:
lonewolf 10-24-07, 07:22 AM	The biggest problem Samuel has with your Psions is Power Resistance. Unlike full spellcasters, my chance of breaching it is very slim which reduces my offensive capabilities substantially.
templer10 10-24-07, 07:26 AM	The biggest problem Samuel has with your Psions is Power Resistance. Unlike full spellcasters, my chance of breaching it is very slim which reduces my offensive capabilities substantially. at ECL 13 a significant percent of the chars will have SR/PR you know and that percent increae as you go up even higher in level- and the monster list.... LOTS of monsters with PR. hell - I got bloody power penetration for Lord lorian just to deal with it a little which even payed off this week.
lonewolf 10-24-07, 07:34 AM	I only see easy access to spell resistance for Clerics, Psions + a few templates(Phrenic, Halfcelestial, halffiend). The SR from the templates is low enough that Samuel will still have a chance, but clerics and psions will be dangerous enemies for Samuel at those levels. Fortunately, he does have options that ignore enemy Spell resistance. :)
McJarvis 10-24-07, 09:02 AM	Though typically one links the character one is purchasing a blackmarket item for, the text for most of the UA stuff implies that it is purchased once as a player, then used freely. When UA stuff first hit this is what I read from it too: but when I suggested this was what the text meant, someone made fun of me for not reading what was in "plain black and white" :( bm purchases are always for the PC, not the player's use on PC's
Hirumajoe 10-24-07, 09:29 AM	Anyone planning to get his character to ECL 13 anytime soon? Im itching to try out Samuels new toys... :schemes: Well, I'd be hoping to get Valen Sky to 13 in the next month or three (depending on his success rate). Only level 11 right now. Although by that point, he's got his own toys. Cerebral Blind + Hide in Plain sight should be a fun combo. Not as good as incorporeality, but still nice. :)
Erithmu 10-24-07, 09:34 AM	Anyone planning to get his character to ECL 13 anytime soon? Im itching to try out Samuels new toys... :schemes: *Looks at Owen's Character sheet* Not any time soon ...
whitebaron 10-24-07, 09:37 AM	well, until christmas, i should be able to get a char to ecl13 - christmas 2008 that is. ;)
McJarvis 10-24-07, 09:47 AM	well, until christmas, i should be able to get a char to ecl13 - christmas 2008 that is. ;) In a strange way, 4E coming is depressing. I'm in a situation suddenly where I can't just say "I'm sure I'll get to ECL10 someday" anymore :(
Taureus_Drakken 10-24-07, 09:49 AM	Swim takes double ACP; it should be -4, not -2. On less rules-oriented aspect, more crossbow bolts might be nice. You have gold and carrying capacity, so why run out? Also, what exactly is this build going to do? That's a stellar Intelligence for a Barbarian, but it's not doing you much good at ECL 3. It might be a road paved with losses for a little while... I added more bolts, and fixed my skills as Eamane pointed out. ACP is -1, so Swim didn't need to change... You will also notice that he is aged one category...The future holds levels in cleric (magic, fire)... Anything else? ¬Taureus¬
McJarvis 10-24-07, 10:34 AM	Is anyone else ever tempted to just make 20 ECL3 characters & blow 18 creds battling everybody in that bracket for 1 week? I think the only thing that holds me back is a feeling of obligation to not stressing the pitlord supply... edit- heck, in memory of NiQil I could even make them all dwarf fighters... ;)
McJarvis 10-24-07, 10:58 AM	Also- Where are our rules on lighting effects? I can't seem to find anything in the rules thread...
TelinArtho 10-24-07, 11:00 AM	Well - it would be fairly likely that a number of them would result in monster fights anyway - but yes - that would instantly put us into a state of emergency (and we might even be there without that kind of mass influx) - so a good many of them would be automatically removed due to the rules of that state. I would really love to see more people step up for pitlording. Any time I need a break, I always feel bad about cutting down the number of fights I take (probably because in 2 of the 3 cases, my cutting down the number of fights has meant a SoE in the following week(s)...) Also- Where are our rules on lighting effects? I can't seem to find anything in the rules thread... They should be in the Rules thread somewhere (look in Battles I or II). However, I know for certain that they are in the Battlefield post of the Characters thread.
McJarvis 10-24-07, 11:22 AM	I would really love to see more people step up for pitlording. Any time I need a break, I always feel bad about cutting down the number of fights I take (probably because in 2 of the 3 cases, my cutting down the number of fights has meant a SoE in the following week(s)...) If it makes you feel any better- the moment you go on break I usually up my pitlord fights by 1 or 2.
hogarth 10-24-07, 11:48 AM	My suggestion: Give 5 credits for each fight pitlorded and charge 5 credits for each gladiator over two you have active. See if that encourages pitlords. Seriously, 1 credit is basically nothin' for five hours of my time (yes, I pitlord v-e-e-e-ery slowly).
Rauul 10-24-07, 11:50 AM	In a strange way, 4E coming is depressing. I'm in a situation suddenly where I can't just say "I'm sure I'll get to ECL10 someday" anymore :( Well they say there will be a Way to convert... or so the rumor goes... we will see.. personnelly i prefer new characters built on the same concept
McJarvis 10-24-07, 11:53 AM	Well they say there will be a Way to convert... or so the rumor goes... we will see.. personnelly i prefer new characters built on the same concept That's odd- I specifically heard that there won't be a way to convert, since the 2nd->3rd edition conversions ended up being so terrible.
whitebaron 10-24-07, 12:17 PM	My suggestion: Give 5 credits for each fight pitlorded and charge 5 credits for each gladiator over two you have active. See if that encourages pitlords. Seriously, 1 credit is basically nothin' for five hours of my time (yes, I pitlord v-e-e-e-ery slowly). yep, i feel the same way. especially after doing 2 audits, basically getting more credits than with a month's worth of pitlording, in 2 days. That's odd- I specifically heard that there won't be a way to convert, since the 2nd->3rd edition conversions ended up being so terrible. you're right. they advise you to remake your character with the same concept. maybe there will be some advisory concept-wise, so you can find your old classes easier in the new way. ;)
lonewolf 10-24-07, 12:26 PM	My suggestion: Give 5 credits for each fight pitlorded and charge 5 credits for each gladiator over two you have active. See if that encourages pitlords. Seriously, 1 credit is basically nothin' for five hours of my time (yes, I pitlord v-e-e-e-ery slowly). I had the same suggestion, just on a much lower scale(2 credits each) a few weeks ago and was shouted down...
Rauul 10-24-07, 12:37 PM	I had the same suggestion, just on a much lower scale(2 credits each) a few weeks ago and was shouted down... 2 per fight, 3 for team, Interleague and FFA fights, -4/-6 if late... Would quests move up to 3 per week and cost more also? Would have to balance it all out.. Quests, MiniQuests, Missions, ect..
Rauul 10-24-07, 12:38 PM	That's odd- I specifically heard that there won't be a way to convert, since the 2nd->3rd edition conversions ended up being so terrible. like i said.. it's all rumor.. won't know jack till June when the Core books are released...
Rauul 10-24-07, 12:43 PM	Gawd i am looking at ECL 6... 3 active characters.. 2 of mine, 1 druid who is almost undefeated.. May i suggest.. teams make a page that tells if they are active or not.. cause honestly i dun know if either ecl 6 team is active...
hogarth 10-24-07, 12:47 PM	I had the same suggestion, just on a much lower scale(2 credits each) a few weeks ago and was shouted down... I've recommended the same thing before, too (although I would describe the reaction as "stony silence" more than "shouting"). I'm just trying to imply that there's not much point in suggesting more people pitlord unless the rewards change (which they probably won't).
templer10 10-24-07, 01:02 PM	I've recommended the same thing before, too (although I would describe the reaction as "stony silence" more than "shouting"). I'm just trying to imply that there's not much point in suggesting more people pitlord unless the rewards change (which they probably won't). and yet - nobody Actually gives a reason to why they DONT change...
McJarvis 10-24-07, 01:06 PM	and yet - nobody Actually gives a reason to why they DONT change... This is largely because the topic is brought up so much- people have a habit of not liking to repeat themselves. I believe that the "powers that be" don't believe that more credits will actually make people more eager to pitlord. [I don't think more people pitlorded when we gave out extra creds for maps included with fights, which was in-effect more creds per pitlorded fight] Of course, no one brings up the point that the GM & elders likely don't do their jobs for the creds either- and they still get those extra creds ;)
Rauul 10-24-07, 01:32 PM	any upcoming campaigns in the planning stage?? I remember someone talking about one a while back...can't find the posts tho..
hogarth 10-24-07, 01:43 PM	any upcoming campaigns in the planning stage?? I remember someone talking about one a while back...can't find the posts tho.. I'm still thinking about starting a short (6-week), low-level (3x ECL 4) one, but I've been busier than usual lately so it's on the back burner.
whitebaron 10-24-07, 01:58 PM	@rauul: 1) our team can't be active, as telin is still working on the fight. 2) if the players activate their team, both have to be set ready. so if you see neither of them to be ready, they aren't. 3) i think this was vathelokai's campaign, who wanted to bring the guilds down properly. might be erithmu, though, as i tend to mix them up consistently (and still don't know why, the names are not even closely related) 4) the rules designers themselves have said in their first interview, that there will be no conversion manual. @credits: administrators or maintainers of all sorts of community-based projects are always reluctant to change things working, unless there are very obvious flaws. this is best observed here concerning sauro and mwb. it's partially self-protection, partially lazyness or virtual life-shortage of time to be spent on this matter. i know this from many boards etc. this often leads to quarrels between oldtimers, quite active newcomers, or lateral thinkers.
Macbrea 10-24-07, 03:02 PM	like i said.. it's all rumor.. won't know jack till June when the Core books are released... It's not really a rumor. The lead designer of the game stood before a group of about 300 people and clearly said. They are not doing a conversion guide from 3.5 to 4th. There is no prestige classes and therefore every character would have to be redone completely. If your campaign must go into the next edition the best method to do that is give them X exp and tell them to make a character based off the concept of how the previous character was. They aren't going to bother trying to write one.
McJarvis 10-24-07, 03:17 PM	It's not really a rumor. The lead designer of the game stood before a group of about 300 people and clearly said. See: that's exactly how rumors start. The leader of some country gets in front of some cameras, looks directly at them while saying that he is starting a war, and suddenly everyone starts talking & spreading lies & gossip about how we are definately going to war ;)
Macbrea 10-24-07, 03:21 PM	Heh... yeah, they said basically. In the campaigns they are play-testing. They either made new characters or if they had an estabilished campaign they sort of converted by saying... Ok, you are playing Rogue 4/Warblade 3. That is worth X amount of experience, The flavor your looking for is the same as a rogue/fighter so, converting that to same amount of experienced Rogue/Fighter.
whitebaron 10-24-07, 03:23 PM	there are even articles on the dnd insider, which state how they converted a wizard to be more like the class he played before (i think either warlock or psion, which both seem to be out of the current playtesting set)
McJarvis 10-24-07, 03:34 PM	Are we still allowed to give purchased allies more hd than their monster manual entry?
hogarth 10-24-07, 03:41 PM	Are we still allowed to give purchased allies more hd than their monster manual entry? No. The only thing you can change now are skill allocations (and that costs credits).
McJarvis 10-24-07, 03:44 PM	The black market is out of date then. On another note- I thought I posted a Fights of the Week thread, but it isn't showing up. I either wasn't paying attention & posted it to another forum or the forums are running a bit slowly right now... Nevermind, it just showed up. edit- Here's the black market reference I was talking about: Advanced Allies: You can pay credits to get the right to acquire an advanced monster from the list of available allies. Be it a quested beast with more hit dice, or a monster that uses the Elite Ability Array, no matter how it is advanced, you have to pay a flat one-time cost of 5 credits (see FAQ: Allies for more information on Advanced Allies). ??
whitebaron 10-24-07, 03:46 PM	The black market is out of date then. On another note- I thought I posted a Fights of the Week thread, but it isn't showing up. I either wasn't paying attention & posted it to another forum or the forums are running a bit slowly right now... Nevermind, it just showed up. yeah, but all the links are missing. ;)
McJarvis 10-24-07, 03:50 PM	yeah, but all the links are missing. ;) fixed -> not sure how those got stripped out. It was a good 10 mins between my posting it & it appearing, though...
whitebaron 10-24-07, 03:57 PM	the forum has speed issues, sometimes.. ;) about the not showing up: sometimes, the start page is not updated, this must be due to some caching mechanism built into the forum. (the pages are generated from the database, but not necessarily every time when you hit refresh. that's how such discepancies work out.)
MindWandererB 10-24-07, 04:04 PM	Are we still allowed to give purchased allies more hd than their monster manual entry? No. Re: fight credits: it's on our discussion docket in the Council. We need a pretty thorough revamping of the credit system... we'll get to it. At some point. Re: 4e: I've said it before, and I'll say it again: my intention is to maintain 3e and 4e CoCos at the same time until interest in the 3e game dies off. Since now the release date for all three 4e core books is the same (early June 2008), we can start working on it immediately at that time. If you want to convert a character from CoCo 3e to CoCo 4e, it will count as a rebuild, so you can start over at level 1 (I infer from the info we've gotten that level 1 characters in 4e won't suck so badly, so there won't be a reason to start at 3rd anymore), or you can start at a higher level with credits.
lonewolf 10-24-07, 04:12 PM	somehow I doubt that I wil be able to convert Samuel to 4e :rolleyes:
Macbrea 10-24-07, 04:19 PM	I can tell you as soon as 4e is out I will go entirely to the new edition. But that is mostly because, I am fine with change. I have played this game since the beginning. :P
MindWandererB 10-24-07, 04:31 PM	somehow I doubt that I wil be able to convert Samuel to 4e :rolleyes: Many characters would either require extensive re-imaginings (Samuel would need to return to his mortal form) or be impossible. The majority of our races will be ineligible to be PCs. The PHB so far has been confirmed to have humans, elves, half-elves, halflings, dwarves, tieflings, and eladrin (the last of which we know little about). Playable races in the MM are so far unconfirmed, but drow are highly probable and others (shifters, warforged, kobolds, orcs, goblins, hobgoblins) are under consideration but not confirmed. Exotic stuff like dragons, undead, etc. are almost definitely out. So the 3e game will still have some appeal for those who want to play those sorts of creatures.
McJarvis 10-24-07, 04:33 PM	Many characters would either require extensive re-imaginings (Samuel would need to return to his mortal form) or be impossible. The majority of our races will be ineligible to be PCs. The PHB so far has been confirmed to have humans, elves, half-elves, halflings, dwarves, tieflings, and eladrin (the last of which we know little about). Playable races in the MM are so far unconfirmed, but drow are highly probable and others (shifters, warforged, kobolds, orcs, goblins, hobgoblins) are under consideration but not confirmed. Exotic stuff like dragons, undead, etc. are almost definitely out. So the 3e game will still have some appeal for those who want to play those sorts of creatures. Don't forget that it is unlikely that psionics will make the initial cut- which will make our 4e games have a dramatic change of pace.
MindWandererB 10-24-07, 04:40 PM	Don't forget that it is unlikely that psionics will make the initial cut- which will make our 4e games have a dramatic change of pace. Right... psionics definitely won't be in the first PHB. We'll have to decide whether we ever include it based on whether it makes it into an SRD.
lonewolf 10-24-07, 04:43 PM	I wonder if were gonna need the 3FC construct in 4e. Probably yes, but one can hope otherwise...
hogarth 10-24-07, 04:44 PM	Right... psionics definitely won't be in the first PHB. We'll have to decide whether we ever include it based on whether it makes it into an SRD. I'm not even convinced that they'll release enough rules in a SRD format in order to play the game without books.
whitebaron 10-24-07, 04:48 PM	I'm not even convinced that they'll release enough rules in a SRD format in order to play the game without books. there was some talk about keeping the ogl. but on the other hand, we'll see when it comes, as i believe this is surely an issue betweeen the game developers who just want to see their system thrive, and the business-department, who wants to see the same, but in cash...
MindWandererB 10-24-07, 04:49 PM	I'm not even convinced that they'll release enough rules in a SRD format in order to play the game without books. I'm sure it'll be similar to 3e that way--you can't go without books entirely, but you shouldn't need more than the core rules. But they've said nothing about what will be in the SRDs (although they've confirmed that they will exist)--they've said that "everything is core," but that doesn't make any sense. We just have to wait and see.
McJarvis 10-24-07, 04:51 PM	they've said that "everything is core," but that doesn't make any sense. We just have to wait and see. I'm pretty sure that's just a marketing ploy. They're probably trying to reinforce the idea that none of the books are out there just to make money- they actually have something significant to contribute to D&D as a whole.
Vathelokai 10-24-07, 05:31 PM	any upcoming campaigns in the planning stage?? I remember someone talking about one a while back...can't find the posts tho.. Hogarth was working on one. I was working on another. Both are on hold right now.
Vathelokai 10-24-07, 05:33 PM	Is anyone else ever tempted to just make 20 ECL3 characters & blow 18 creds battling everybody in that bracket for 1 week? I think the only thing that holds me back is a feeling of obligation to not stressing the pitlord supply... edit- heck, in memory of NiQil I could even make them all dwarf fighters... ;) I have considered activating all 10 of my characters at once; does that count :) Also- Where are our rules on lighting effects? I can't seem to find anything in the rules thread... In the map post of the characters thread... Link
Vathelokai 10-24-07, 05:38 PM	I've recommended the same thing before, too (although I would describe the reaction as "stony silence" more than "shouting"). I'm just trying to imply that there's not much point in suggesting more people pitlord unless the rewards change (which they probably won't). and yet - nobody Actually gives a reason to why they DONT change... This is largely because the topic is brought up so much- people have a habit of not liking to repeat themselves. I believe that the "powers that be" don't believe that more credits will actually make people more eager to pitlord. [I don't think more people pitlorded when we gave out extra creds for maps included with fights, which was in-effect more creds per pitlorded fight] Of course, no one brings up the point that the GM & elders likely don't do their jobs for the creds either- and they still get those extra creds ;) All good points. McJarvis has most of it; more credits would make some people pitlord more, but not that many (please let me know if I'm wrong). Secondly, the entire credit system needs an overhaul; the problem is no one has any solid ideas on how to do it - some fights are worth more than others, some audits are easier than other, the 'value' of credit costs is not consistant (in my opinion). Also, I don't get my elder credit if I don't do my elder work. I know it was a jibe, but if the questlog and newspaper are not getting done, then I don't get paid. (speaking of which, I need to get back to you about the newpaper stuff; I like the idea). That's something that changed when MWB took over.
MindWandererB 10-24-07, 05:50 PM	That's something that changed when MWB took over.It was kind of a silent change--Cat hadn't been posting weekly credits for a long time (even though it's in the instructions that he wrote), so I didn't know how he'd been doing it. I never considered that he might be giving scribelord credits when nothing's being done. So now Vath only gets his credits when he does either an update (and sends me a PM about it) or puts up a newspaper article. Same thing goes for Sauro and Telin--if I don't get a PM from them that week, I don't give them credits. I'd particularly like to hear a credit revision proposal from Telin, because he's done more jobs than anyone--he's been Prisonlords, Pitlords, guildmaster, run more fights than anyone, ever, and has done a ton of prison posts as well. So he has the best idea of anyone how much time things take, and thus how many credits they should be worth.
TelinArtho 10-24-07, 06:01 PM	It was kind of a silent change--Cat hadn't been posting weekly credits for a long time (even though it's in the instructions that he wrote), so I didn't know how he'd been doing it. I never considered that he might be giving scribelord credits when nothing's being done. So now Vath only gets his credits when he does either an update (and sends me a PM about it) or puts up a newspaper article. Same thing goes for Sauro and Telin--if I don't get a PM from them that week, I don't give them credits. I'd particularly like to hear a credit revision proposal from Telin, because he's done more jobs than anyone--he's been Prisonlords, Pitlords, guildmaster, run more fights than anyone, ever, and has done a ton of prison posts as well. So he has the best idea of anyone how much time things take, and thus how many credits they should be worth. Well - I agreed with the suggestion to take everything and multiply it by ten (both on earnings and on costs). Once there - it would be easy to adjust things accordingly. In order of efforts, here's how I would place the responsibilities: Prisonlords/Training hall/Blackmarket/Newspaper Prison violation Prison Audit (2-4 levels) Prison Audit (5-8 levels) Prison Audit (9+ levels) Miniquestlording Questlording Campaignlording Pitlording (2 person fight) Pitlording (3 person fight) Pitlording (4 person fight) Pairings I have to go now - but I'll come back and comment later or tomorrow.
MindWandererB 10-24-07, 06:22 PM	In order of efforts, here's how I would place the responsibilities: Prisonlords/Training hall/Blackmarket/Newspaper Prison violation Prison Audit (2-4 levels) Prison Audit (5-8 levels) Prison Audit (9+ levels) Miniquestlording Questlording Campaignlording Pitlording (2 person fight) Pitlording (3 person fight) Pitlording (4 person fight) PairingsI'd separate out "Pairings" into maintaining the roster and doing the pairings themselves. It's really two seperate jobs. The pairings themselves, for me, take no longer than a 2-person fight (on average), but the maintainance takes longer. The GM responsibilities are technically seperate as well (things like adding/subtracting credits, updating the rules, etc.) Officially, I get 1 credit for "Pitlords" and one for "GM," but the former certainly takes a lot more work than the latter. Regarding the other rankings, doing the newspaper takes a fair amount of work. I don't think prison violations take more than the whole job of Prisonlords, wither (though Telin would know better than I).
TelinArtho 10-25-07, 09:50 AM	@whitebaron and callix - swim is not one of the required skills to list on one's character sheet. Therefore - those "violations" you posted are not really valid.
TelinArtho 10-25-07, 10:17 AM	I'd separate out "Pairings" into maintaining the roster and doing the pairings themselves. It's really two seperate jobs. The pairings themselves, for me, take no longer than a 2-person fight (on average), but the maintainance takes longer. The GM responsibilities are technically seperate as well (things like adding/subtracting credits, updating the rules, etc.) Officially, I get 1 credit for "Pitlords" and one for "GM," but the former certainly takes a lot more work than the latter. Regarding the other rankings, doing the newspaper takes a fair amount of work. I don't think prison violations take more than the whole job of Prisonlords, wither (though Telin would know better than I). Well - I know from my own work that updating the prison takes very little work. Violations for small things (minor typos, etc) are certainly easier, but more extensive violations, where you need to look up a few rules to verify or something similar certainly take more effort. Updating the prison is only marginally more work than approving items in the blackmarket and/or the training hall. As for the newspaper, I just added that on there as a quick one. I should probably separate it into writing an article/story and the organization of the newspaper. So this gives us a new list to order up with the current credit given, multiplied by 10: Prisonlords/(Training hall and Blackmarket)/General GM responsibility (Rules updates, etc) - 10 each Prison violation - 2 each Newspaper - 10 each Prison Audit (2-4 levels) 10-20 credits Prison Audit (5-8 levels) 25-40 credits Miniquestlording - 10 credits Prison Audit (9+ levels) 45 credits + Questlording - 20 credits per week (60 credits per quest) Campaignlording - 30 credits per week (up to 450 credits for a 15 week campaign) Pairings - 10 credits Pitlording (2 person fight) - 10 credits Pitlording (3 person fight) - 20 credits Pitlording (4 person fight) - 20 credits Roster Maintenance - (currently in the Pairings value) (I put the bulk of the "maintenance" items at the bottom of the list because it is either a relatively small amount of work or is infrequent (so could be measured as a small weekly amount or as an infrequent, but larger amount)) So in terms of what I consider the easiest/least effort intensive up to the hardest/most effort intensive - there's obviously a pretty big skew here. First off - I'm proposing a change on how to calculate credits for audits. Currently the amount is 0.5 credits per ECL above 3 and requires the character to have leveled at least once. My change would be to 0.5 (or the new credit amount) per level over the original character's level. This way, a character started at ECL9 and audited at ECL11 is worth only 1 credit instead of 4 credits. I've reflected that change in process in the above list. Now - looking at the order of things up there, I'd say we need to start with a benchmark - the 2-person Fight. We already know that the pairings is about equivalent to it, but questlording/campaignlording (on a weekly basis) is comparably a smaller amount of effort. That said - both of these are desired in the current system (because it adds so much flavor and such a different environment from the arena) - so perhaps, on a weekly basis, they should be equivalent. Miniquestlording on the other hand usually is much easier than any of these, so should probably be worth less, especially since it is sometimes a drain on pitlording resources. Okay - so here's a first pass at trying to rework things. Note that I am devaluing the efforts of the elders essentially. This is for a number of reasons, but most of it is because I don't want there to be impression that the way to amass credits untold is to be an elder. I have a huge number of credits - but it is mostly for the other activities I have provided (pitlording, campaignlording,questlording, violations, audits, etc) rather than the administrative duties. Since the credits for the elder activities are not available to the general populace, I feel like there is an impression that they are "free" credits - and I don't like that impression. That said - I'm still keeping the pairings as a high credit value, and the weekly maintenance is also a high value - but only because I know it is a huge amount of work (and there's nothing to be done about it - the best reward there is a "warm fuzzy feeling" - because it will automatically skew the credits for the person doing the work). Prisonlords/(Training hall and Blackmarket)/General GM responsibility (Rules updates, etc) - 1 credit Prison violation - 1 credit Newspaper article/Story for a fight - 3 credits Prison Audit (2-4 levels) 3 credits Prison Audit (5-8 levels) 5 credits Miniquestlording - 6 credits Prison Audit (9+ levels) 7 credits + 1 credit per 2 levels above 9 Questlording - 10 credits per week (30 credits per quest) Campaignlording - 10 credits per week (up to 150 credits for a 15 week campaign) Pairings - 10 credits Pitlording (2 person fight) - 10 credits Pitlording (3 person fight) - 15 credits Pitlording (4 person fight) - 20 credits Weekly GM Maintenance (roster, credit tracking, etc) - 20 credits And as said before - this is just my first pass. Since the impetus is there to change the system - this is the time to speak up about it.
lonewolf 10-25-07, 10:27 AM	First let me say that I am very glad that this is starting to get the attention it deserves. I think there should be a difference in the number of awarded credits for questlording between Multiplayer- and Singleplayer quests. A 2 person quest shouldnt net you double the credits of a singleplayer quest, but it should give you more because it is more work. Another thing you didnt adress is that pitlording higher ECL battles should give more credits than lower ECL battles. Maybe give out credits equal to the sum of all ECLs involved in a battle?
Erithmu 10-25-07, 10:29 AM	I'm liking what you have laid out Telin. A couple of remarks: Miniquesting: 5 credits per character involved in the MQ Campaigning: I would like to see a bonus in there for a completed campaign. Often the preptime is overlooked, I know I have spent a good amount of time preping a storyline and main characters, etc etc. Is there the possibility of something like a 30 credit reward for completed campaign I'll weigh in on the magic/psi transparency this weekend. Busy school day week for me, but I've been mulling it over.
hogarth 10-25-07, 10:31 AM	Telin, Are you multiplying costs by 10 as well? If so, then there's no difference between earning 10 credits for a fight to buy a UA option that costs 100 credits and earning 1 credit for a fight to buy a UA option that costs 10 credits. In fact, you would be devaluing the credits for multiplayer fights (instead of a 100% bonus for a three-player fight, you're proposing a 50% bonus).
Macbrea 10-25-07, 10:36 AM	My suggestion for campaignlord would be 7 credits per week for 15 weeks and 45 credits upon completion at end of a 15 week campaign.
TelinArtho 10-25-07, 10:45 AM	First let me say that I am very glad that this is starting to get the attention it deserves. I think there should be a difference in the number of awarded credits for questlording between Multiplayer- and Singleplayer quests. A 2 person quest shouldnt net you double the credits of a singleplayer quest, but it should give you more because it is more work. Another thing you didnt adress is that pitlording higher ECL battles should give more credits than lower ECL battles. Maybe give out credits equal to the sum of all ECLs involved in a battle? First off, I have questlorded for a number of multiplayer quests and I very much disagree that they are more difficult to work with. As I said though, this is my perception of how things work - so if the other people who have run multi-character quests have a different opinion on the matter - obviously that is a possibility. Doubling the reward for just one more character is likely too much of a benefit though. Similarly pitlording higher ECL battles can often be just as easy as a lower ECL battle. I am not inclined to change the individual gain per fight on the higher ECLs because there are a fair number of auto-losses (surrenders) that would be free credits for little work. If we included a smaller payout for fights that were surrendered, then my concern on this matter would be lessened. I'm liking what you have laid out Telin. A couple of remarks: Miniquesting: 5 credits per character involved in the MQ Campaigning: I would like to see a bonus in there for a completed campaign. Often the preptime is overlooked, I know I have spent a good amount of time preping a storyline and main characters, etc etc. Is there the possibility of something like a 30 credit reward for completed campaign I'll weigh in on the magic/psi transparency this weekend. Busy school day week for me, but I've been mulling it over. As I said in response to lonewolf's comments - I would dislike a system where a 2 person miniquest is worth double a 1 person miniquest as the work involved is certainly not double (and I often feel it is easier to run than a 1-person one...) For campaigns, perhaps a different system could be set up - a bonus at the end would certainly be reasonable for completed campaigns. Telin, Are you multiplying costs by 10 as well? If so, then there's no difference between earning 10 credits for a fight to buy a UA option that costs 100 credits and earning 1 credit for a fight to buy a UA option that costs 10 credits. I am multiplying the costs of everything by 10 as well - but only because I haven't looked at how they should be changed. The premise here is to just adjust the scale up first and then manage the individual items afterwards. That said - you and I probably disagree about how many credits are needed for any individual item. A UA Option is something that is long lasting (assuming the character doesn't get retired early), but is also more work for the pitlord (who has to look up another set of rules that s/he may not be familiar with). In other words - I feel it is reasonable to have it cost about as much as 10 fights pitlorded. Custom items, similarly, are worth keeping at 150 credits (15 fights) because they require more effort on a number of people's plates (the person maintaining the blackmarket, your opponent, your pitlord, etc). However, as I said before - this was just my first pass. This is intended as a discussion to be worked out, not just taken by rote.
Macbrea 10-25-07, 10:48 AM	Also, I agree with Lonewolf. Using the above system it would be simple to change the number of credits gained to something based off the ECL of the fight you run. Example: Looking at this weeks pairings: LEVEL 3 FIGHTS Khaz Issolith (Eamane) vs. Vaernya Thiri'vir (Ackermanus) : Taureus_Drakken [Arena] (6 credits) Verger Stonewall (Ackermanus) vs. Shaela of the Rooftops (Callix) : Eamane [Arena] (6 credits) Ssassetar (Nurlithion) vs. Psori D'Agostea (Taureus_Drakken) : Vathelokai [Arena] (6 credits) Marius (McJarvis) vs. Sylean'delues (bgt) : Rauul [Arena] (6 credits) Zodiac II (Vathelokai) vs. Mineau Guwango (Turanson) : whitebaron [Arena] (6 credits) Tanriel (Luni) vs. Thorell Runesmith (McJarvis) : templer10 [Arena] (6 credits) LEVEL 4 FIGHTS Ralein Dreamstriker (Callix) vs. Snaga (The Dread Dormammu) : Taureus_Drakken [Arena] (8 credits) Wroth Korthek (Eluria) vs. Gwerdan "Twofist" Grummler (whitebaron) : templer10 [Arena] (8 credits) Ackbar Stormsword (Taureus_Drakken) vs. Kai Engel (Hirumajoe) : whitebaron [Plains] (8 credits) LEVEL 5 FIGHTS Unknown Monster vs. Darian Thorne (lonewolf) : Eamane [Forest] (5 credits) LEVEL 6 FIGHTS The shadow (Rauul) vs. The Eternal Dreamless Sleep (Team) : whitebaron [Sewer] (12 credits) Graashnak Vruuurk (Rauul) vs. Inzin Dar'ath (waywreth) : lonewolf [Sewer] (12 credits) LEVEL 7 FIGHTS Gakhnalak Strongjaw (MindWandererB) vs. Unknown Monster : McJarvis [City] (7 credits) LEVEL 10 FIGHTS Malik of Black Robe (Malither76) vs. Torel Silvanus (Erithmu) : templer10 [Sewer] [Week 2] (20 credits) Therador Goldscale (lonewolf) vs. Unknown Monster : McJarvis [Temple] (10 credits) LEVEL 11 FIGHTS Valen Sky (Hirumajoe) vs. Kervan Sheharath (MindWandererB) : templer10 [Temple] (22 credits) Raskos the Jade Father (SauroGrenom) vs. Unknown Monster : Vathelokai [Plains](11 credits) LEVEL 12 FIGHTS Baelin the Shadow (Malither76) vs. Lord Lorian (templer10) vs. Kracknol (SauroGrenom): Erithmu [City] [All-vs-All] (36 credits) That is what it would look like if we gave 1 credit per ECL in the fight.
McJarvis 10-25-07, 10:53 AM	A UA Option is something that is long lasting (assuming the character doesn't get retired early), The problem with this is that different people have broadly different playing styles. I'd almost like an option to buy UA material for 20 credits on a player basis over 10 credits on a character basis. I remake characters often, and would love an option that would allow me to fully flesh out tactics on battle sorcerers, for instance. Since I don't really play characters for a terribly long time, I end up spending the same # of creds for a 5-month experience that others will find last years.
hogarth 10-25-07, 10:57 AM	That said - you and I probably disagree about how many credits are needed for any individual item. A UA Option is something that is long lasting (assuming the character doesn't get retired early), but is also more work for the pitlord (who has to look up another set of rules that s/he may not be familiar with). In other words - I feel it is reasonable to have it cost about as much as 10 fights pitlorded. Custom items, similarly, are worth keeping at 150 credits (15 fights) because they require more effort on a number of people's plates (the person maintaining the blackmarket, your opponent, your pitlord, etc). I don't see how your proposal would encourage more pitlords, though. Wasn't that the point of readjusting things?
lonewolf 10-25-07, 10:59 AM	The difference is to big. An ECL 9 fight is (usually) more work than an ECL3 fight, but nowhere near triple the work. Maybe something like (10 credits +.5 credits for each ECL above 3) * .5 * number of characters ? Also monster fights shouldnt get less credits than normal ones. They are the same work, sometimes even more if you have to create and equip things like Kobold Bard6/Dragon Disciple5 or something.
Macbrea 10-25-07, 11:04 AM	Monster fights aren't more work. They are less. You have to deal with less individual personalities on each fight. If that wasn't true. You wouldn't have a pitlord list that looks like: Eamane (13°) <two> Erithmu (44°) <one> lonewolf (3°) <one> McJarvis (26°) <two> [Request: Monster fights] Rauul (1°) <one> Taureus_Drakken (3°) <two> templer10 (9°) <three> [Offer: +1 Fight] [Request: no miniquests] Vathelokai (1°) <zero> [Offer: +1 monster fight] whitebaron (17°) <two> [Offer: +1 Fight or MQ] Note: two of the pitlords are willing to do a fight as long as they can deal with just 1 person and a monster. Myself, I love weeks when I get just a monster fight. It means pretty much the fight will be over within an hour or two of getting tactics. And 80% of the time, the person in the fight doesn't complain that the tactics weren't perfect. They either win or loose pretty obviously.
McJarvis 10-25-07, 11:08 AM	Monster fights aren't more work. They are less. . Monster fights are less work if you do them incorrectly. I volunteer to do them expressly so I can be sure that they are being done correctly, and are not just disguised auto-wins. As it is I signed up for two fights and now must design & outfit five characters before even running the fight. It's probably equal to about four fights of work- and that's before considering that by asking for monster fights you are more or less asking for non-ECL3 fights.
Macbrea 10-25-07, 11:08 AM	And I can guarrentee that Rith didn't throw himself on the sacrifical alter of pitlordiness for 2 credits to run that 12th level free for all out of the kindness of his heart. :P
Macbrea 10-25-07, 11:12 AM	Monster fights of 7+ are generally the monster will win unless you are super-optimized. If you are super-optimized then the pitlord will deem it an autowin and reroll the monster for you to insure that it is a 60% in favor of the monster. In truth, if a monster needs to be rerolled more then twice it needs to be removed from the list and replaced. Obviously, it is too week for our 36pt buy characters.
lonewolf 10-25-07, 11:12 AM	I agree that the good thing about monster fights is that there is just one less person that can complain about the fight. But creating an CR11 monster with PC classes is a lot of work. Drawing the line there is difficult, but I dont think we should automatically less credits for monster fights.
Macbrea 10-25-07, 11:15 AM	We could make monsters equal to 1/2 their CR in credits. :P
TelinArtho 10-25-07, 11:15 AM	I don't see how your proposal would encourage more pitlords, though. Wasn't that the point of readjusting things? The basic premise here is something that I don't agree with. I don't personally think that increasing credits will see a boost in the number of pitlords. That said - I am not unwilling to see a change and be surprised. I am just trying to get the ball rolling on an item that seems to come up often. I do feel that some things are rewarded "too much" for the level of effort. For instance, the work of Prisonlords is very small (especially in weeks where only 2-5 violations are issued) - yet I get rewarded just as much for that work as I am for completing a 2-person fight. So while I disagree that increasing the pitlording credits will see a boost in pitlords, I have no problem with adjusting rewards on the whole system to see if it improves. Anyway - I just got the ball rolling - so I'm waiting to see what comes out of it.
Macbrea 10-25-07, 11:22 AM	There isn't must you can do by the way for surrenders. Unless the pitlord really wanted to mark all surrenders as 1/2 credits. But that requires far too much time to insure that a fight was a surrender vs a regular fight. Then readjust the credit totals at the end of the week. It also does mean that failure to do things like that 12th level free for all is very costly on your credits. It's worth a loss of 36 credits if you fail to do it.
Macbrea 10-25-07, 11:31 AM	So, in the opinion of the people with a huge number of fights would you rather do the 6 ECL 3 fights or the 1 ECL 12 fight in the current pairings?
whitebaron 10-25-07, 11:48 AM	@whitebaron and callix - swim is not one of the required skills to list on one's character sheet. Therefore - those "violations" you posted are not really valid. then it should be. swim is required for the ambush package. so it should be added to the list of required skills. @credit discussion: could we move this to another thread, please? in the tavern, almost everything that is discussed for longer than say a week, gets lost in the long run.
TelinArtho 10-25-07, 11:52 AM	Meh - the tavern threads are one of many threads that I keep the archives on... so they will never be lost. However, this should probably move into the council. As for swim - its not so much that it should be required because of the ambush package. The others (balance, climb, jump) were all added because pitlords were constantly exposed to them with the addtion of the Temple and Forest maps. Since swim still has no use on any map (unless you are small size or smaller and want to swim on the forest map...), it isn't really useful to have it required.
whitebaron 10-25-07, 12:15 PM	well, so you want to block the council for all other posts until the credit issue is resolved? i'd really advise you to move such things to a new thread, as other, less-longterm discussions might interfere. cross-discussing can be fun, but it is always lossy. @swim: i realise, i don't have it on my sheet either. still, i had to check swim far more often than e.g. climb.
McJarvis 10-25-07, 12:17 PM	That's likely because people know whether they can climb or they can't- and write tactics appropriately. Swim, on the other hand, is far more useable on the maps. [no mountaintop for us]
TelinArtho 10-25-07, 12:30 PM	The problem with 1-off threads for focused discussion is that they aren't kept away from the archives or possibly purges. In the case of a credit reformation discussion - its probably not that big of a deal - but for most discussions - keeping them in the "xxx of Gladius" threads will hopefully keep them from being purged/archived.
hogarth 10-25-07, 01:13 PM	The basic premise here is something that I don't agree with. I don't personally think that increasing credits will see a boost in the number of pitlords. That said - I am not unwilling to see a change and be surprised. Well, I guess I'm looking at things from a different perspective. In an ideal world, I'd like to see every build option available to every player whether they have credits or not. So I dislike (for instance) the fact that it costs credits to get UA class variants, or that it costs credits to play a troglodyte (even one without any class levels) or that it costs credits to get custom items (which I'd rather see banned altogether). Those kind of uses give rise to an uneven playing field. But I do like the uses of credits that allow you to skip over things if you want. For instance, I like that you can start at higher than the minimum level with credits, or you can skip miniquests, or you can run more than two characters. All of that stuff can be accomplished without credits, but it might take a long, long time. I also like using credits to enter quests and campaigns. So I think the barrier to the optional rules stuff should be low (in the interests of a level playing field). That means either (a) removing/reducing credit costs for using the optional rules, (b) getting rid of the optional rules altogether, or (c) increasing the credits you can earn for pitlording. Since (a) and (b) are unlikely to happen, I might as well support (c). I can tell you for a fact that I would pitlord more if (say) two fights could earn me the right to use a UA variant. Ten fights is just too much effort for me. YMMV, of course.
McJarvis 10-25-07, 01:32 PM	I'm in agreement on not liking custom items- whenever I see one I always just think of a powergamer getting something otherwise not available. I can tell you for a fact that I would pitlord more if (say) two fights could earn me the right to use a UA variant. Ten fights is just too much effort for me. YMMV, of course. How would you keep that up, though? We need pitlords on a weekly basis- but with those kinds of numbers you'd be out of UA pretties to motivate you in only a few short weeks. [given the time you have to spend on each package that you buy...] edit- I think that the focus of using credits to skip procedures like leveling up is a good thing. In general these types of credit purchases do not translate to more power-> indeed, if you level up through the lower levels being financially conservative you can end up more powerful on a gp basis.
hogarth 10-25-07, 01:38 PM	How would you keep that up, though? We need pitlords on a weekly basis- but with those kinds of numbers you'd be out of UA pretties to motivate you in only a few short weeks. [given the time you have to spend on each package that you buy...] I wouldn't necessarily keep it up forever, but 2 > 0, isn't it? But trust me -- I have enough build ideas that would cost credits that I won't run out of things to spend them on for a long, long time. For example, I think it would be kind of fun to create a wyrmling white dragon ghost, but what's the point in pitlording 35 fights to create a character that might turn out to be useless in the arena?
Macbrea 10-25-07, 01:43 PM	Credits in truth are never going to be the motivator in getting people to run. What normally happens is a person sees something they want they run a few fights then stop doing it after they get the item they wanted. Then they start up again when they see a new carrot. We have a few very dedicated people that run just to run. And I commend them for that. They are great. What nornally determines if I can run is my time. I know I can normally run one fight a week. That is the maximum limit to the amount of time I have in a single week. Making items worth 1 credit vs 10 credits doesn't change that fact, it the max time. Now, truthfully, a week with a low-level fight for me seems to go quickly. Monster fights go quickly. Fights that are free-for-alls or team matchs always annoy me. They are way too much work for their worth. High level fights are strange in that they can go really quickly or very very slowly. They use the kitchen sink for rules and aren't afraid to pull out every known trick in the book. They take much more effort in my opinoin then the lower fights.
McJarvis 10-25-07, 01:46 PM	Since we're technically "owned" by WotC, we could take a page from their book and create a ranking system for pitlords, thus creating the incentive of having a title that is otherwise meaningless. People always like the forum titles, after all! ;)
templer10 10-25-07, 01:53 PM	Credits in truth are never going to be the motivator in getting people to run. What normally happens is a person sees something they want they run a few fights then stop doing it after they get the item they wanted. Then they start up again when they see a new carrot. We have a few very dedicated people that run just to run. And I commend them for that. They are great. What nornally determines if I can run is my time. I know I can normally run one fight a week. That is the maximum limit to the amount of time I have in a single week. Making items worth 1 credit vs 10 credits doesn't change that fact, it the max time. Now, truthfully, a week with a low-level fight for me seems to go quickly. Monster fights go quickly. Fights that are free-for-alls or team matchs always annoy me. They are way too much work for their worth. High level fights are strange in that they can go really quickly or very very slowly. They use the kitchen sink for rules and aren't afraid to pull out every known trick in the book. They take much more effort in my opinoin then the lower fights. Since at least at the moment I run the most Fights per week (i think) and generaly Hard fights, I think i can say for sure - i, Personally Think we really DO need to get more credits for the work we put in, NOT becuase it would encourage more people to pitlord (and i think it will) BUT becuase it will keep those ALREADY ptloring doing so. i know that i myself, lately is busy as hell in work and i really struggle to finish up my fights and Frankly what i make today is just barely enough to keep me even sort to speak with what i deem nesesery expenditures - which are char activations, starting at higher levels etc and i never had teh credits to use any of the variants or get a nifty custom item or some such (besided the one's that are baed on regular items, i.e. glvoes of dex +3). Iam seriusly thinking simply activating 1 or 2 less chars a week and simply dropping in my "load" as a pitlord- after all- I would be getting, eventually the samw amount of reward. well this turned into a bit of a rant but in conclusion- i dont Know that that giving more credits will encourage peeps to pitlord but it will at the very least, make sure, i personally keep up the same level since i could finally aford some of the stuff i want. p.s. - i got a max AC build iam dying to try out - problem is he starts at the very minimum at ecl 9 or 10 - and i dont have and likely never will have the 30+ credits i need for it, and frankly - It's not fair.
hogarth 10-25-07, 01:57 PM	We have a few very dedicated people that run just to run. And I commend them for that. They are great. What nornally determines if I can run is my time. I know I can normally run one fight a week. That is the maximum limit to the amount of time I have in a single week. Making items worth 1 credit vs 10 credits doesn't change that fact, it the max time. It might not change things for you, but it would change things for me, at least a little bit. My situation is this: my wife doesn't want me hunched in front of the computer for 2+ hours ignoring her. So every time I pitlord a fight (I'll volunteer for one if there's an impending emergency, say, and I don't have anything specific planned for the weekend), I have to spend some time and energy convincing her to let me do it on top of the time and energy spent pitlording. If I had something cool to look forward to, I might not mind as much. But as it is one fight = 1/10 of something cool. P.S. I love my wife and wouldn't trade her for all the online D&D in the world. :)
McJarvis 10-25-07, 02:02 PM	Regarding that: Let me paint you a picture of my life, assuming you guys won't laugh at me for my interests. I merely balance work, church activities, a somewhat flexible social life[coffee shops, bars, and groups that discuss recent books], playing xbox live, and CoCo. I only do CoCo when I want to do CoCo- and I really can't imagine a life where I'd be willing to put aside anything on my list other than Coco activities for more credits. That's why I'm finding it difficult to believe that credits are really a motivating factor when pitlording. When I pitlord I put aside character building projects- not my "other life".
Macbrea 10-25-07, 02:06 PM	I cannot justify spending the credits on custom items. Generally, speaking my credits go to activating characters at higher then 3rd level (because I hate 3rd - 6th) and quest activations.
Rauul 10-25-07, 03:57 PM	My personnel life is just that personnel.. between doctors, shrinks, physical therapy, Ptss therapy i have every little time for myself.. and i Love Quests/Miniquests, and low level pitlord fights.. it takes my mind off the BS i am put through with red tape.. That being said.. I actually Like Custom magic items.. Sorry they give you feats to be able to make magic items.. What i don't like is the 15 credit cost when your making it yourself.. (one of the main reasons i retired Corrupter was that he could make items but I the player would have to Pitlord 15 fights to get the item) Honestly.. even WoTC likes custom magic items.. they made a Magic Item Compendium filled with non standard magic items.. and 95% of them were made by the magic item creation rules.. yet to copy any of those Items for our characters we the player would have to pitlord 15 fights... 5 credits if self crafted, 10 credits if not self crafted i could understand.. not 15 credits for both...
Rauul 10-25-07, 04:06 PM	Oh and as far as UA material.. it's on the Same SRD as Pionics, Additional Domains, and other non core material that we don't have to pay Credits to use... So it should also be Credit Free IMHO.. if it's been cleared to play here.. and is in the SRD, it should be credit free..
McJarvis 10-25-07, 04:11 PM	Oh and as far as UA material.. it's on the Same SRD as Pionics, Additional Domains, and other non core material that we don't have to pay Credits to use... So it should also be Credit Free IMHO.. if it's been cleared to play here.. and is in the SRD, it should be credit free.. Actually, the UA material is not in the SRD. It's just usually listed with the SRD material on websites. [but notably absent from the official SRD website] edit- this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35) is the real SRD. Notice the divine/psionic stuff is there, but not UA material.
Macbrea 10-25-07, 04:32 PM	I prefer to use the d20srd srd because all the errata is in the srd. And the UA material isn't much harder to look up then the rest of the material. In all honesty the red wizard is much more difficult as it requires looking in a book.
MindWandererB 10-25-07, 07:13 PM	Since pitlording is the gold standard for credit value, I'd like that to be worth 10. That way, folks' existing credits aren't devalued. Everything else should be based on that. I'm amenable to the idea of decreasing credit costs to compensate, but selectively.
whitebaron 10-26-07, 06:53 AM	about the modifier x10 for credits: i feel strangely reminded of yugi-oh. when they couldn't come up with a proper system to do it like in magic:the gathering, they just kept multiplying all those values. now its like "pay 3000 life to do this, get 2000 damage from this" etc. this is something i want to avoid at all costs. the feeling created by such a system is just wrong. its like my 6800 bonus points on my cellphone-bill: i couldn't even get a new one from that credits for free, and it's a worth of 3 years of bills. I believe, hat the credit system needs to have a basis done on two primary factors: 1) time used 2) complexity/error proneness of the task. (should basically just increase the time used for calculations) what to do: set the award you want to give for a given time of investment to coco. (because that's what it is - you help building coco) and go from there. estimate the time for fights. this has to be a general formula, with additional time added for: forest map. pitch black. team fights. i'll post a proposal based on the current credit system in the council. about why people pitlord: i believe, you have 3 basic pitlording-reasons: a) for fun b) for credits c) because they feel obliged to do so giving more credits will only affect one group(b) to actively grow(and shrink too, when they got all they need.). BUT: when other people are tired, or simply fed up with something, it might keep them going for a time as group b, before they return to their original group. so basically i see it like t10: making more credits with fights doesn't drive new people to pitlord. but it keeps the existing work up. @UA: i have no strong opinion on this, but it should not get more expensive, because people with many credits get some big advantages if they are ready to pay for it. @custom items: i'm all for custom items. having credits required to do this as a crafter, is simply put: unfair. i'd rather have some research phase introduced, based on spellcraft. so if you want to craft a custom item yourself, go ahead. full action to research e.g. 10+spellcraft-value * ECL-Factor (to be defined). hit the market value of the item you want to make, and you get to craft it, credit-free. (still takes time to craft+some weeks to research.) You can't expect a spellcrafter to use gather information in the blackmarket to research something.
whitebaron 10-26-07, 10:12 AM	got a question concerning the sewer and horses: as the sewer is only 10ft high, do characters riding there get any penalties except the slower horse movement due to the difficult terrain?
Macbrea 10-26-07, 10:20 AM	A rider on a 10x10x10 creature is considered to be added to their square. As a result it stays a 10x10x10 creature in DnD. You are not considered to be riding on top of the square but part of it.
whitebaron 10-26-07, 11:03 AM	A rider on a 10x10x10 creature is considered to be added to their square. As a result it stays a 10x10x10 creature in DnD. You are not considered to be riding on top of the square but part of it. ok, so horses are perfectly fine in any given arena of gladius.
Macbrea 10-26-07, 11:36 AM	The problem with a horse in the sewers is it's speed is always reduced because of the 1ft deep stream. It has to be in the stream.
whitebaron 10-26-07, 11:40 AM	got a question concerning the sewer and horses: as the sewer is only 10ft high, do characters riding there get any penalties except the slower horse movement due to the difficult terrain? i usually don't quote myself, but... :)
templer10 10-26-07, 12:30 PM	i usually don't quote myself, but... :) the rider is considered part of the horses space so no problem.
Rauul 10-26-07, 04:10 PM	got a question concerning the sewer and horses: as the sewer is only 10ft high, do characters riding there get any penalties except the slower horse movement due to the difficult terrain? other than a horse is concidered to be squeezing.. Squeezing In some cases, you may have to squeeze into or through an area that isn’t as wide as the space you take up. You can squeeze through or into a space that is at least half as wide as your normal space. Each move into or through a narrow space counts as if it were 2 squares, and while squeezed in a narrow space you take a -4 penalty on attack rolls and a -4 penalty to AC. When a Large creature (which normally takes up four squares) squeezes into a space that’s one square wide, the creature’s miniature figure occupies two squares, centered on the line between the two squares. For a bigger creature, center the creature likewise in the area it squeezes into. A creature can squeeze past an opponent while moving but it can’t end its movement in an occupied square. To squeeze through or into a space less than half your space’s width, you must use the Escape Artist skill. You can’t attack while using Escape Artist to squeeze through or into a narrow space, you take a -4 penalty to AC, and you lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.
McJarvis 10-26-07, 04:13 PM	@Raul: the hallways in the sewers are 10', so the horse needs not squeeze. [it's a 10' beastie]
Rauul 10-26-07, 04:55 PM	@Raul: the hallways in the sewers are 10', so the horse needs not squeeze. [it's a 10' beastie] Darn it.. thats the city map i was thinking about.. 0-well
Macbrea 10-26-07, 05:06 PM	So.. how many credits is it for a challenge match: Izumi vs The Eternal Dreamless Sleep and Wiener Wadlbeisser She needs it for her roster of odd fights..
lonewolf 10-26-07, 05:11 PM	hehe as soon as both teams hit ECL7, I would be up for it. The question is if we would find a pitlord crazy enough to do this... :rolleyes:
Macbrea 10-26-07, 05:12 PM	Hey.. you get a free suprise round for all 5 combatants on your side at ECL 6.
TelinArtho 10-26-07, 05:18 PM	hehe as soon as both teams hit ECL7, I would be up for it. The question is if we would find a pitlord crazy enough to do this... :rolleyes: I know Izumi pretty well... I don't think it would be very difficult to pitlord at all. If it happens, I'll volunteer for it (assuming I am not as time-bound as I am right now...)
lonewolf 10-26-07, 05:24 PM	the really difficult part would probably be coordinating tactics between 5 players...
whitebaron 10-26-07, 05:26 PM	just make it the plains, it won't be difficult there to coordinate. ;)
templer10 10-26-07, 05:26 PM	hehe as soon as both teams hit ECL7, I would be up for it. The question is if we would find a pitlord crazy enough to do this... :rolleyes: Iam game for it also - bUt that pitlord has to be bloody insane.... of course you can wait until ecl 8 when ill get a cohort also for extra insanity...
Erithmu 10-26-07, 05:28 PM	I'd take that pitlord too ... that would be nutty fun. Although I'd have to say that map will determine winner.
templer10 10-26-07, 05:29 PM	the really difficult part would probably be coordinating tactics between 5 players... 6 players. And speaking of insane things I would always be willing to Have any of my higher level characters vs any number of lower level characters (how many Ecl 4-6 you need to fight a level 12)? - think of it as a Boss fight in a MMORPG....
whitebaron 10-26-07, 05:31 PM	nope, we won't communicate our tactics with macbrea, now would we? :)
lonewolf 10-26-07, 05:33 PM	:rofl:
McJarvis 10-26-07, 06:20 PM	6 players. And speaking of insane things I would always be willing to Have any of my higher level characters vs any number of lower level characters (how many Ecl 4-6 you need to fight a level 12)? - think of it as a Boss fight in a MMORPG.... Any number? Howabout all the ECL3-5's? :)
lonewolf 10-26-07, 06:26 PM	well, Samuel would take on those... :P
MindWandererB 10-26-07, 06:35 PM	I'd take that pitlord too ... that would be nutty fun. Although I'd have to say that map will determine winner. Makes me eager to get the Community running. One of the Challenge options is an FFA between several teams of CR<=2.
templer10 10-26-07, 07:16 PM	Any number? Howabout all the ECL3-5's? :) As long as the total ECL is equal to 12 then yup.... (or 2 ECL 12's or 1 ECL 12 and 1 ECL 11).
Vathelokai 10-26-07, 10:22 PM	I'd volunteer for one of those mega fights.... makes me giddy thinking about it.
templer10 10-26-07, 10:38 PM	I'd volunteer for one of those mega fights.... makes me giddy thinking about it. Well - Calling all Victims To volunteer then - first come first killed.
Vathelokai 10-26-07, 11:19 PM	ECL 12 vs one of the following 24 ecl3 16 ecl4 12 ecl5 8 ecl6 6 ecl7 4 ecl8 3 ecl9 2 ecl10 ... could suplement with a monster... Also, I'm running a 3-week quest starting nov 14, so it would have to be before or after that.
templer10 10-26-07, 11:23 PM	ECL 12 vs one of the following 24 ecl3 16 ecl4 12 ecl5 8 ecl6 6 ecl7 4 ecl8 3 ecl9 2 ecl10 ... could suplement with a monster... Also, I'm running a 3-week quest starting nov 14, so it would have to be before or after that. 24! ecl 3's - lol That kind of fight will need to be frozen just from the sheer amount of Dorjas/wands expandbles and whatnot Ill need to burn to kill these many peeps...
Rauul 10-26-07, 11:36 PM	So.. how many credits is it for a challenge match: Izumi vs The Eternal Dreamless Sleep and Wiener Wadlbeisser She needs it for her roster of odd fights.. I would almost be interested in running that fight... 6 characters, 4-5 horses... Would be nice on the city map..Deadly on the Cavern/temple map... Izumi on the rampage?
Rauul 10-26-07, 11:38 PM	24! ecl 3's - lol That kind of fight will need to be frozen just from the sheer amount of Dorjas/wands expandbles and whatnot Ill need to burn to kill these many peeps... I think 24 of them would be able to take you down!!! but why would you use wands/dorjas vs ecl 3's?
templer10 10-26-07, 11:45 PM	I think 24 of them would be able to take you down!!! but why would you use wands/dorjas vs ecl 3's? Depend which charcter and which map. Ill need dorjas/wand becuase Ill run out of spell levels/pps before ill run out of enemies with 24 of them. i think i have a decent chance to win Since level 3 charcters cant really DO much to a level 12 charcter Who invests well into defensive gear (and i do). p.s- seeing 24 level 3 chars vs 1 Guy could be hillarious as hell.... (especially if they lose). p.s.s - Shuddering at needing to look at 24 different char sheets.... Hey - didnt someone mention ideas for that to do for Uncon - I think seeing a Massive (and i do mean MASSIVE) battle can definently spark some intrest.
Taureus_Drakken 10-26-07, 11:48 PM	I think 24 of them would be able to take you down!!! but why would you use wands/dorjas vs ecl 3's? He could afford high CL/ML wands/dorjas, and overwhelm them with sheer average damage. When the dice cap for his wands/dorjas is higher than 3, his odds of taking them all down are greatly increased. Or I could be wrong...Who knows, it would be a massacre no doubt! ¬Taureus¬
Rauul 10-27-07, 12:01 AM	He could afford high CL/ML wands/dorjas, and overwhelm them with sheer average damage. When the dice cap for his wands/dorjas is higher than 3, his odds of taking them all down are greatly increased. Or I could be wrong...Who knows, it would be a massacre no doubt! ¬Taureus¬ Actually i would pref to see him vs 16 ecl 4's who have had a chance to level.. would be a very different battle..
Vathelokai 10-27-07, 12:01 AM	Hrmmmm... McJarvis did say it would be funny to activate 20 dwarf fighters at once (NiQil's Army!). Edit; I do think it would be more 'fair' to fight the whole ecl5 league. At least they can fly and maybe cast resist energy.
templer10 10-27-07, 12:01 AM	He could afford high CL/ML wands/dorjas, and overwhelm them with sheer average damage. When the dice cap for his wands/dorjas is higher than 3, his odds of taking them all down are greatly increased. Or I could be wrong...Who knows, it would be a massacre no doubt! ¬Taureus¬ My Dorja user (lorian) does 6d6 to 9d6 per round with a dorja+GPS, But i imaigne they first thing the Horde will try is to disarme and or sunder them - unfourtently he has about 8 or so diffrent dorja's...
Rauul 10-27-07, 12:03 AM	Hrmmmm... McJarvis did say it would be funny to activate 20 dwarf fighters at once (NiQil's Army!). Activate 20, (18 credits)+2 credits to challenge him... toss in 1-2 dwarfs already on the roster... NiQil's Army vs Psion.. EDIT=>i would volunteer Gortek... and Gol'ie.. :)
templer10 10-27-07, 12:03 AM	Actually i would pref to see him vs 16 ecl 4's who have had a chance to level.. would be a very different battle.. Sure - i dont care - I Will want to do it Frozen simply becuase it will cost me 2 much (in gold i mean) otherwise to do it - those dorjas are damn expensive.
Rauul 10-27-07, 12:07 AM	Sure - i dont care - I Will want to do it Frozen simply becuase it will cost me 2 much (in gold i mean) otherwise to do it - those dorjas are damn expensive. Well concidering we dun do frozen leagues anymore... (ECL 15-20).. spend the money or get overrun... the Fame from Defeating 16 ECL 4 should override the cost.. :)
templer10 10-27-07, 12:10 AM	Well concidering we dun do frozen leagues anymore... (ECL 15-20).. spend the money or get overrun... the Fame from Defeating 16 ECL 4 should override the cost.. :) well in a challange fight you can do basicly anything you want if everyone agree if i remmber - not sure if it extends towards teh fight being frozen or not.
Eamane 10-27-07, 12:17 AM	Twenty-Four ECL 3's... How about we parcel the dwarves into 'teams' to reduce the credit cost? Say, four dwarves each. I'm quite good at making ECL 3 warrior types, though how to take down Izumi would be an interesting challenge. Mmm. I think I have a few ideas.
templer10 10-27-07, 12:26 AM	Twenty-Four ECL 3's... How about we parcel the dwarves into 'teams' to reduce the credit cost? Say, four dwarves each. I'm quite good at making ECL 3 warrior types, though how to take down Izumi would be an interesting challenge. Mmm. I think I have a few ideas. for the 24 ECL 3's thing we were talking about one of my Guys at ecl 12 (lorian/longshot), Izumi should be easier in comparison (with the appropriate number of ecl 3's) i think since it'sa Purely melee charcter so in order to win it HAS to engage in melee.
MindWandererB 10-27-07, 01:04 AM	Since there is obviously interest in playing and running Grand Melees, let me suggest this (in addition to the master-vs-mook challenges): One of the things we'll need to do to launch the Community is playtest some of the various Challenges (see post 12). If anyone wants to stat up some Agents and attempt any of the Challenges by way of a playtest, I'd be willing to award credits to the pitlord (I'll hold off on deciding how many until I see how crazy the task is). If anyone wants to take me up on that, save your characters to a text file for now (I don't want to clutter up any of our existing threads with them); I'll either create a temporary thread for them (if there's a lot) or we'll just post them in next week's FotW. By the way, the playtest offer goes out to PCs as well as Agents; I don't want so many of them that our normal functioning is disrupted, but one or two playtest Challenges a week should be okay. Pitlording these will be on a strictly voluntary basis--I won't assign any.
Rauul 10-27-07, 01:16 AM	Since there is obviously interest in playing and running Grand Melees, let me suggest this (in addition to the master-vs-mook challenges): One of the things we'll need to do to launch the Community is playtest some of the various Challenges (see post 12). If anyone wants to stat up some Agents and attempt any of the Challenges by way of a playtest, I'd be willing to award credits to the pitlord (I'll hold off on deciding how many until I see how crazy the task is). If anyone wants to take me up on that, save your characters to a text file for now (I don't want to clutter up any of our existing threads with them); I'll either create a temporary thread for them (if there's a lot) or we'll just post them in next week's FotW. By the way, the playtest offer goes out to PCs as well as Agents; I don't want so many of them that our normal functioning is disrupted, but one or two playtest Challenges a week should be okay. Pitlording these will be on a strictly voluntary basis--I won't assign any. Put Shadow down for a Playtest character, and put me down for an extra Community battle... Will work out Shadows Community this week..
Rauul 10-27-07, 01:29 AM	Got a Question... whats a 2nd place in a 3 person FFA worth in repuation.. and a winner of a FFA.. do they have any extra for reputation Example.. shadow has been in 2... 1 2nd place 1 win..
Rauul 10-27-07, 01:54 AM	Shadow's Fame break down.. District Vilis Total Fame: 257 property 2 room apartment: 75 Business, Crime : 92+10% Head servant : 30 Influence, Underworld : 60+10% About the Agent... i am sort of lost.. LOL being that Shadow don't have an agent does he compete himself?? (wouldn't think so) or does he choose some level 1 peon from his criminal business to do it?
Eamane 10-27-07, 02:24 AM	Since there is obviously interest in playing and running Grand Melees, let me suggest this (in addition to the master-vs-mook challenges): One of the things we'll need to do to launch the Community is playtest some of the various Challenges (see post 12). If anyone wants to stat up some Agents and attempt any of the Challenges by way of a playtest, I'd be willing to award credits to the pitlord (I'll hold off on deciding how many until I see how crazy the task is). If anyone wants to take me up on that, save your characters to a text file for now (I don't want to clutter up any of our existing threads with them); I'll either create a temporary thread for them (if there's a lot) or we'll just post them in next week's FotW. By the way, the playtest offer goes out to PCs as well as Agents; I don't want so many of them that our normal functioning is disrupted, but one or two playtest Challenges a week should be okay. Pitlording these will be on a strictly voluntary basis--I won't assign any. As far as statting up Agents go, I need a little clarification. The section on agents with PC classes makes no mention of equipment, while the NPC agent says that they have half that of the PC agents; then lists numbers.... are those numbers for NPC agents (thus, PC agents have twice that much) or are those numbers for PC agents (thus, NPC agents have half that much). Either way, I think it would reduce confusion if each section explicitly listed the amount of money it receives at each level, rather than having a formula involved for one or the other.
MindWandererB 10-27-07, 02:35 AM	I'm having trouble changing personas to become Communitylords, or I'd clarify it in the rules now: What I'd meant to state was that agents with PC classes get PC wealth (900 and 2000 for levels 1 and 2), and agents with NPC classes get half that (450 or 1000). I'll make it explicit when I can.... @Rauul: Don't worry about Reputation right now. For FFA and Team challenges, Shadow would enter himself; if you want to do an Agent challenge, stat up any agents you'd like using the guidelines in the Community thread right now and assume you have enough to pay for them. We'll worry about other uses of Reputation another time. Edit: I figued out how to switch personas (had to visit the blogs, log in, then come back here), then realized my numbers were wrong anyway. I don't have the 3.5 DMG, so I don't know what the wealth-by-level is for level 2 PCs (I assume there is no entry for level 1, just the standard die roll; the table is apparently different in 3.0). I'd like for PC-classed agents to have PC-like wealth, but level 1 PCs are dirt poor (expecially compared to the 900 bucks an NPC gets). If I can compare the PC and NPC tables, I can come up with a reasonable number.
Rauul 10-27-07, 02:59 AM	@Rauul: Don't worry about Reputation right now. For FFA and Team challenges, Shadow would enter himself; if you want to do an Agent challenge, stat up any agents you'd like using the guidelines in the Community thread right now and assume you have enough to pay for them. We'll worry about other uses of Reputation another time. Ok that works.. Will make up a Level 1 Human expert (one of the Rouges in his busness) for his agent (that way can mess with agents a little) Will Cohorts be allowed in FFA's and Team challenges? for comunity.. or can they be considered an Agent :)
MindWandererB 10-27-07, 03:06 AM	Ok that works.. Will make up a Level 1 Human expert (one of the Rouges in his busness) for his agent (that way can mess with agents a little) Will Cohorts be allowed in FFA's and Team challenges? for comunity.. or can they be considered an Agent :) The rules as they currently stand (highly subject to change) are to allow anything normally allowed in the arena unless otherwise stated in the challenge description (e.g. "monster hunt" allows class allies only, and no team challenge allows allies of any kind).
Rauul 10-27-07, 03:13 AM	Mwb.. you really don't understand how long i have been wanting to try those fights since you listed them in communities... first time since i been here i am excited..
Rauul 10-27-07, 03:17 AM	Shadow just wants to Squish EHTC... they play with dead things.. ewwwwww so uncouth (this is from the poison using bard/assassin)
Hirumajoe 10-27-07, 02:09 PM	So... Valen's got 18,000 gp burning a hole in his pocket and I've got 10 credits to my name. So I'm wondering: How much would it cost to get a 17th level Psion (Telepath) to manifest Psychic Chirurgery to implant the Expansion power, a 1st level power. Can I choose to pay half the xp, or would I be forced to pay the full 5,000 gp to pay the xp cost. I.e. 10 x 9 x 17 = 1,530 gp 1,000 xp x 5 = 5,000 gp 6,530 gp total *or* 500 xp x 5 = 2,500 gp 500 x 2.2727 = 1136.35 gp 500 xp and 5,166.35 gp total I presume this all would also cost 6 credits, since Valen is only level 11.
Taureus_Drakken 10-27-07, 09:35 PM	I am slightly confused, was the Elf sleep-immunity house-ruled to something else? I can't find anything that says it was, so I am guessing the one player didn't read the other player's character sheet, and missed the fact that his opponent is a high ELF...His tactics revolve around utilizing his Sleep spells so he can CDG him... Am I confused for no reason? ¬Taureus¬
Rauul 10-27-07, 09:40 PM	I am slightly confused, was the Elf sleep-immunity house-ruled to something else? I can't find anything that says it was, so I am guessing the one player didn't read the other player's character sheet, and missed the fact that his opponent is a high ELF...His tactics revolve around utilizing his Sleep spells so he can CDG him... Am I confused for no reason? ¬Taureus¬ yup u is confussed... no house rule.. is natural immunity... Some people acually forget they are immune to sleep...
Taureus_Drakken 10-27-07, 09:43 PM	Thanks Rauul! Both players' seem to have forgotten the immunity, because the elf player reminds me of his +2 vs sleep in his tactics...:confused: Now to finish the fight!! ¬Taureus¬
Hirumajoe 10-28-07, 02:53 PM	So I've reworked Altair, not that he's ever seen the light of the arena yet. But I'd like to activate him for this coming week, and I'm open to suggestions. He's basically a Human Psion (Shaper), planning on going Psion Uncarnate and grabbing Burrowing power for Incorporeal firing through walls goodness. He'll need to grab remote viewing either with Expanded Knowledge or Psychic Chiurgery (~6,000 gp and 1,000 xp and 10 credits versus a feat - dunno which is a better deal).
Vathelokai 10-28-07, 03:02 PM	So I've reworked Altair, not that he's ever seen the light of the arena yet. But I'd like to activate him for this coming week, and I'm open to suggestions. He's basically a Human Psion (Shaper), planning on going Psion Uncarnate and grabbing Burrowing power for Incorporeal firing through walls goodness. He'll need to grab remote viewing either with Expanded Knowledge or Psychic Chiurgery (~6,000 gp and 1,000 xp and 10 credits versus a feat - dunno which is a better deal). Could always get the magic psionic item that does it; cheaper I think. Don't remember what it's called off the top of my head.
whitebaron 10-28-07, 04:37 PM	since this got lost - how much does it cost to challenge a team for a fight?
Salrantol 10-28-07, 10:43 PM	for the 24 ECL 3's thing we were talking about one of my Guys at ecl 12 (lorian/longshot), Izumi should be easier in comparison (with the appropriate number of ecl 3's) i think since it'sa Purely melee charcter so in order to win it HAS to engage in melee.Neither of your psions has Energy Ball, Energy Cone, or Energy Burst? Shouldn't take too many pps to take out 24 ECL 3s with those.
MindWandererB 10-29-07, 03:10 PM	since this got lost - how much does it cost to challenge a team for a fight? All challenges cost 1 credit per player, although one player can pay the cost for another if they want.
whitebaron 10-29-07, 03:20 PM	All challenges cost 1 credit per player, although one player can pay the cost for another if they want. so, we will have to rely on luck for team vs team action. ;)
templer10 10-29-07, 03:34 PM	so, we will have to rely on luck for team vs team action. ;) IAm sure we can arrange a whoever Loses pays fight if you want vs EDS but not this week - hogarth isnt around.
SauroGrenom 10-29-07, 04:24 PM	I recall being told by those whom I generally thought were well informed that characters who can fly can also use slashing weapons on dive attacks. (Although people mounted on a flying creature cannot.) Zevox used this all the time with his half-fiend warrior. And I think that Gareth is now using it as well. So please remind me of the place in the rules that allows this... I cannot find it right now.
Malither76 10-29-07, 05:37 PM	It was in a rules of the game all about movement I believe, under flying. I don't know if it was changed I'm bad about keeping up with stuff. It works with a piercing or slashing weapon and I'm thinking it would work from a flying mount for x4 damage on a charge with appropriate mounted feats.
Malither76 10-29-07, 05:50 PM	Its in all about movement part 5, charging while flying. Diving charge must be 30' charge while descending 10', can be done with a claw, piercing or slashing weapon for double damage
whitebaron 10-29-07, 07:21 PM	Gwerdan just hit ECL5. as for expendables, i think 2 potions of invisibility would be nice, in addition to the expansions. the skates will be dropped, as 5ft extra speed isn't worth it anymore. but i'm still thinking about what to do with the rest of his money. 5500-6000 GP to spend. i know he's good at bookkeeping and saving, but sometimes you've got to invest to earn more. any ideas? and: i don't know what's scarier. +22 on grapple-checks when expanded/fist of iron, or +25 to jump after a running start. gwerdan could easily beat the world records in jumping :) (well, maybe he could beat hulk hogan, too.)
TelinArtho 10-29-07, 11:12 PM	Before you start thinking about impressive jump checks - you might want to check on Jar-red - who can automatically hit a 10ft high jump (or 40ft long jump)... even on a 1.
SauroGrenom 10-29-07, 11:52 PM	It was in a rules of the game all about movement I believe, under flying. I don't know if it was changed I'm bad about keeping up with stuff. It works with a piercing or slashing weapon and I'm thinking it would work from a flying mount for x4 damage on a charge with appropriate mounted feats. There's a FAQ statement that specifically says that mounted characters don't get the benefit. So a fighter on a griffon can dive/charge, and his mount gets double damage while the mounted guy doesn't. According to the RoTG it appears that those who can intrinsically fly, get an added boost beyond what mounted guys get.
templer10 10-30-07, 02:50 AM	Gwerdan just hit ECL5. as for expendables, i think 2 potions of invisibility would be nice, in addition to the expansions. the skates will be dropped, as 5ft extra speed isn't worth it anymore. but i'm still thinking about what to do with the rest of his money. 5500-6000 GP to spend. i know he's good at bookkeeping and saving, but sometimes you've got to invest to earn more. any ideas? and: i don't know what's scarier. +22 on grapple-checks when expanded/fist of iron, or +25 to jump after a running start. gwerdan could easily beat the world records in jumping :) (well, maybe he could beat hulk hogan, too.) Grapple is nice but You should start thinking about how you are going to GET to a grappling situation vs a faster guy then you (or one that can fly) and maybe save up for some boots of flying? (or buy a horse).
whitebaron 10-30-07, 02:55 AM	IAm sure we can arrange a whoever Loses pays fight if you want vs EDS but not this week - hogarth isnt around. we'll see. maybe sometime. but 5° is much to lose.. :) Before you start thinking about impressive jump checks - you might want to check on Jar-red - who can automatically hit a 10ft high jump (or 40ft long jump)... even on a 1. well, i usually don't compare myself to animals, as a medium flee would be much better at jumping than both of us :) . that said, i just checked over your build - it's a nice one at that. but you seem to have the control shape wrong. you can take it as a class skill, once you are aware of your lycanthropy. so no cc ranks needed. i'm not sure about those animal ranks in control shape - i was always under the impression that you can only start taking ranks in control shape afterwards, but on the other hand: as there's no ruling against it, i might consider this next time. ah, and t10: grapple flying guys with my jump check, this should be absolutely possible. (large vertical reach+expansion=32ft reach even without jumping. ) and about faster: not much that is really faster, (run-feat, speed's got to grow later on) especially when i get to them with invis. horses are not really... fast :)
lonewolf 10-30-07, 07:12 AM	but a pegasus is. You might wanna think about getting one of those... and talking about world records, you really want me to bring up Therador who can lift 5 tons above his head? (and thats before Bulls strength or something) :P
whitebaron 10-30-07, 07:27 AM	and talking about world records, you really want me to bring up Therador who can lift 5 tons above his head? (and thats before Bulls strength or something) :P animal, too. :) (but don't let him hear this)
lonewolf 10-30-07, 07:43 AM	animal, too. :) (but don't let him hear this) Yeah, take care. Otherwise he will come at Gwerdan and showhim how to really grapple, not caring for those stupid ECL rules! :P
McJarvis 10-30-07, 10:14 AM	Well, I just lost a monster fight[first time in a while], so I figured I'd start a discussion here. My build for two Githzerai monks can be found here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14162526&postcount=1419). I'm not really sure what I was doing with them. I want to give them alot of options, and some things to help deal with casters. Being a competent grappler, high save, medium PR, and a hider were among my goals. Most notably, however, they lack any range. I couldn't think of a satisfactory way to do this except to give them a high jump check. What could I have done differently? [the loss was because they faced off against a centaur-half-dragon, which I wouldn't expect many straight-faced monks to be able to pull through anyway] Did I really have to break down and get a potion of fly at the expense of most of his expendables? :(
Luni 10-30-07, 10:45 AM	Well, I just lost a monster fight[first time in a while], so I figured I'd start a discussion here. My build for two Githzerai monks can be found here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14162526&postcount=1419). I'm not really sure what I was doing with them. I want to give them alot of options, and some things to help deal with casters. Being a competent grappler, high save, medium PR, and a hider were among my goals. Most notably, however, they lack any range. I couldn't think of a satisfactory way to do this except to give them a high jump check. What could I have done differently? [the loss was because they faced off against a centaur-half-dragon, which I wouldn't expect many straight-faced monks to be able to pull through anyway] Did I really have to break down and get a potion of fly at the expense of most of his expendables? :( Crossbows for ranged. :) Potion of fly definetly help any melee oriented characters. Yeah, they are expensive, but with everyone flying around at ECL 5+. My question, is how do they use Powerstones without Psicraft?
McJarvis 10-30-07, 10:55 AM	My question, is how do they use Powerstones without Psicraft? Consider that a minor error in the build I guess. They could easily have grabbed psicraft over(say) concentration & one rank of jump after getting a level in psionic fist. I kind of balk at the idea of monks weilding crossbows, so I guess the potion of fly is the only way to go...
Luni 10-30-07, 11:06 AM	Consider that a minor error in the build I guess. They could easily have grabbed psicraft over(say) concentration & one rank of jump after getting a level in psionic fist. I kind of balk at the idea of monks weilding crossbows, so I guess the potion of fly is the only way to go... Go Javelins, or Javelins of Lightning then. They got enough range to be used in most of the arena's.
McJarvis 10-30-07, 11:13 AM	Go Javelins, or Javelins of Lightning then. They got enough range to be used in most of the arena's. ooo- that's a good one. thanks! :)
lonewolf 10-30-07, 02:13 PM	does calling a bolt from call lightning provoke an AoO?
TelinArtho 10-30-07, 02:15 PM	Nope.
lonewolf 10-30-07, 05:05 PM	New FAQ is out. The only thing worth noting is the following: - Protection from Evil now protects against daze, sleep and Tashas Hideous Laugther, since those are Enchantment spells that enable the caster to exercise Mental control over the subject.
McJarvis 10-30-07, 05:06 PM	I knew it
TelinArtho 10-30-07, 05:15 PM	New FAQ is out. The only thing worth noting is the following: - Protection from Evil now protects against daze, sleep and Tashas Hideous Laugther, since those are Enchantment spells that enable the caster to exercise Mental control over the subject. Ugh. I suppose that makes the Enchanter a completely impossible build here in the CoCo... (not that it was doing well anyway).
Eamane 10-30-07, 05:24 PM	I knew it HA-HA! Take that, internal logic and FAQ not contradicting itself! My fighter builds just got a good bit more dangerous. Now my opponents will be forced to go through my high HP. I knew I had it for a reason.
whitebaron 10-30-07, 05:48 PM	protection from evil just got nearly as good as globe of invulnerability, ... at least color spray and phantasmal killers are illusions...
Vathelokai 10-30-07, 05:54 PM	Ugh. I suppose that makes the Enchanter a completely impossible build here in the CoCo... (not that it was doing well anyway). Gonna try it anyway... but that just made things exponentially harder.
Rauul 10-31-07, 02:38 AM	Since there is obviously interest in playing and running Grand Melees, let me suggest this (in addition to the master-vs-mook challenges): One of the things we'll need to do to launch the Community is playtest some of the various Challenges (see post 12). If anyone wants to stat up some Agents and attempt any of the Challenges by way of a playtest, I'd be willing to award credits to the pitlord (I'll hold off on deciding how many until I see how crazy the task is). If anyone wants to take me up on that, save your characters to a text file for now (I don't want to clutter up any of our existing threads with them); I'll either create a temporary thread for them (if there's a lot) or we'll just post them in next week's FotW. By the way, the playtest offer goes out to PCs as well as Agents; I don't want so many of them that our normal functioning is disrupted, but one or two playtest Challenges a week should be okay. Pitlording these will be on a strictly voluntary basis--I won't assign any. did anyone volunteer for this other than shadow and me??
Callix 10-31-07, 07:02 AM	Luni, I noticed Grumsh, and I realised that his Scout package is illegal. Knowledge (Geography) is only a class skill for the Wilderness Rogue variant, and I can't see an approval post for that variant. That might make you want to change the skill distribution you've given him, since you can't get five ranks, even taking it cross-class. There's still time to edit for this week's deadline, or you could de-activate him if you want to think it through.
Eamane 10-31-07, 07:51 AM	did anyone volunteer for this other than shadow and me?? I don't have any characters that are high enough level to really have any amount of fame, or I would have offered. Maybe in a few weeks, if Tzim does superbly well/wins a FFA or two.
McJarvis 10-31-07, 08:49 AM	did anyone volunteer for this other than shadow and me?? I was going to- but in the middle of begining to sit down and read the new ruleset I realized I really didn't want to spend the time on learning a new system of rules for a game. Sorry guys :(
whitebaron 10-31-07, 09:24 AM	actually, i don't see the fun in the current community rules yet. but i'd volunteer to run such a special fight. @eamane: supposedly it's enough to get one agent first - which is fame worth ecl3 +1 won fight. you'd have to live in a shack, though.
MindWandererB 10-31-07, 03:00 PM	I was going to- but in the middle of begining to sit down and read the new ruleset I realized I really didn't want to spend the time on learning a new system of rules for a game. Sorry guys :(actually, i don't see the fun in the current community rules yet. but i'd volunteer to run such a special fight.They're not done yet... sheesh. If the special fight aspect of it intrigues you, that's what we're testing right now. The rest of the system isn't an issue right now. All you'd need to do to participate in this test is come up with one or more characters (or just a monster, even easier), and write tactics when the time comes.
whitebaron 10-31-07, 03:46 PM	well, actually, the special fights are just nice to see - but its not what would bring me to the community. having a secondary (and maybe tertiary) level of fights is just not appealing that much. being able to earn fame just in the arena (as per the current rules for fame) doesn't add much. whats the award for agent fights btw? i can't seem to find that.
McJarvis 10-31-07, 03:55 PM	If the special fight aspect of it intrigues you, that's what we're testing right now. That's more or less what I'm talking about. When I started using TIM I felt a little weird knowing that his exact character type could never translate to a table- namely because I was using house-rules for skills. I like playing characters that can use all their abilities at the tabletop- and at my tabletop games encounters are decided when the monster is defeated. The gladiator ring is exactly this. So there it lies- I won't be getting involved in anything that includes special win conditions, complex systems for ratings, etc, etc. [most immediately: this is why my characters don't use free activities anymore] More maps for the arena[for instance: a rocky terrain or mountain] would be of some interest to me, though...
Rauul 10-31-07, 04:01 PM	well, actually, the special fights are just nice to see - but its not what would bring me to the community. having a secondary (and maybe tertiary) level of fights is just not appealing that much. being able to earn fame just in the arena (as per the current rules for fame) doesn't add much. whats the award for agent fights btw? i can't seem to find that. because it's not done.... and until fleshed out it won't be.. Community is not a replacement for Guilds.. but it's a way for your Character to have a business, earn a title, Make Gladius into more than just an arena.. into a living city.. Quest to become the Shadow Ruler of a District.. Corrupt the District with the marble Castle to be Evil and hate CEF.. and Blame it on EHTC.. Destroy another Players Influence in their District.. think outside the box..
MindWandererB 10-31-07, 04:05 PM	well, actually, the special fights are just nice to see - but its not what would bring me to the community. having a secondary (and maybe tertiary) level of fights is just not appealing that much. being able to earn fame just in the arena (as per the current rules for fame) doesn't add much. whats the award for agent fights btw? i can't seem to find that. That's because I haven't come up with it yet... those rules aren't even at an alpha stage. Rauul's right: the Community is meant to be an engine for RP to create character goals beyond powerrating and XP. If you're mainly interested in the arena, then the Community doesn't offer anything for you (It's not meant to appeal to everyone, just as the guilds aren't). But we've had a lot of players who like this kind of thing... I remember a character who went on a quest expressly for the purpose of founding a restaurant, and there's the seamstress Izumi; many characters would be interested in earning official titles for themselves, as well (King Uther actually ran the King of Gladius in Classic CoCo, IIRC).
McJarvis 10-31-07, 04:06 PM	Hey templer: Now that's why you don't brag in the tavern about great AC's ;)
whitebaron 10-31-07, 04:06 PM	all i can see currently is that you get another level of sub-characters done, agents - and they do some stuff. and you get some things for fame like housing etc. i do not see any things about acquiring more fame without resorting to arena fights, and therefore its just like the old guilds - another game, based on the original arena-game, which i admit, doesn't intrigue me - maybe it will when some things are more fleshed out - but currently, it's the same as it was to me when WoW hit the markets... just not interesting enough. --edit-- @mwb: i think rewards are the most important thing about it. doing some stuff like districts etc. is nice. but trying to build a city without the underlying rules, is like driving a car without tires...
templer10 10-31-07, 04:10 PM	well I hope i can suffer through a 3FC with only 33 AC buffed, Althrough i will need to invest in some other AC boosters i suppose But i think 8 Touch AC beats 3 reguler AC in usefulness.
McJarvis 10-31-07, 04:13 PM	Well geez, I went through a phase where I gave ALL of my characters titles.... :-)
Rauul 10-31-07, 05:02 PM	Well geez, I went through a phase where I gave ALL of my characters titles.... :-) Well right now we have 2 Shadows Running around Gladius... Zimram Bastal ECL 6.. "Shadow" Baelin ECL 12... "Called the Shadow" wonder who Zimram will blame all his defeats on... "You have the wrong shadow" I did shadows reputation.. with the 2 room cottage, will give him a permenant base, allowing his leadership score to allow 3 lvl 1 peons giving him an agent :) a criminal organization, and no title.. (thieves dun need any stinking offical title :P
Eamane 10-31-07, 05:06 PM	Yeah, I noticed that a few weeks ago, thought it amusing. Plus there have been other shadows in the past. Heh. A thought occurs to me; perhaps the dwarven army should all be called synonyms of Shadow? Shade, Shading, Shadower, Shadowed, etc? It would be.. amusing, yes.
whitebaron 10-31-07, 05:11 PM	more likely a mixture of beer, gold and dirt. ;) dwarves are all but stealthy.
lonewolf 10-31-07, 07:49 PM	just wondering: there is no way to get darkvision or something similar with metamorphosis, right?
Hirumajoe 10-31-07, 09:01 PM	just wondering: there is no way to get darkvision or something similar with metamorphosis, right? That is correct. And in fact, if you had it because of your race, you'd lose it. This is one of the reasons I'm going down the Shadowdancer path, I'll get 60' Darkvision (along with Evasion and Uncanny Dodge) at level 2, which I get to keep in different forms because its a class ability. But yes, this doesn't help with the Samuel fight at this juncture in time. :)
Hirumajoe 10-31-07, 11:10 PM	Dumb question: Can you start with a lit torch in hand, or do you need to take an action in battle to do so?
McJarvis 10-31-07, 11:15 PM	Dumb question: Can you start with a lit torch in hand, or do you need to take an action in battle to do so? I'd imagine you'd have to prebuff lighting the torch. Go get yourself an everburning one and solve your problems...
Hirumajoe 10-31-07, 11:22 PM	I'd imagine you'd have to prebuff lighting the torch. Go get yourself an everburning one and solve your problems... Everburning torches don't deal damage to swarms... Or light things on fire in quests (like unconscious trolls), but yeah, I see your point. In that case, are you allowed to pre-buff with qualifiers? I.e. I light the torch if its pitch black?
McJarvis 10-31-07, 11:26 PM	Everburning torches don't deal damage to swarms... Or light things on fire in quests (like unconscious trolls), but yeah, I see your point. In that case, are you allowed to pre-buff with qualifiers? I.e. I light the torch if its pitch black? I *think* that only works for bringing in allies. Even so- the torch would be lit for hours before the fight came around if you prebuffed it.
Hirumajoe 10-31-07, 11:57 PM	Last set of dumb questions: Whats the rule on Allies and being outside of the arena? I know if a gladiator is outside of the arena (teleport, ethereal, etc...) they auto-lose after 10 rounds, but does that affect allies in any way? Also, how far below the floor can you go before you're considered "off the map"? Or is there no such limit. (The arena seems to suggest 20' thick floors).
MindWandererB 11-01-07, 12:14 AM	Last set of dumb questions: Whats the rule on Allies and being outside of the arena? I know if a gladiator is outside of the arena (teleport, ethereal, etc...) they auto-lose after 10 rounds, but does that affect allies in any way? Also, how far below the floor can you go before you're considered "off the map"? Or is there no such limit. (The arena seems to suggest 20' thick floors). Not dumb questions--I'm not sure the answers are explicitly anywhere in the rules. My opinion is that allies that are out of the arena for 10 rounds are removed from the fight, and 20' into the floor seems reasonable. (Into the walls, you can go anywhere that's on the map.)
Hirumajoe 11-01-07, 12:22 AM	Not dumb questions--I'm not sure the answers are explicitly anywhere in the rules. My opinion is that allies that are out of the arena for 10 rounds are removed from the fight, and 20' into the floor seems reasonable. (Into the walls, you can go anywhere that's on the map.) Hmm... Perhaps I should bring up the ally thing in the courtroom. Given that Samuel's Pegasus is always ethereal, it would qualify every fight to be removed after 10 rounds, assuming I understand the ghost rules and manifesting correctly. Can a ghost share its manifesting with another ethereal creature?
Vathelokai 11-01-07, 12:26 AM	Could somebody link me the Community rules? I might make one of my characters a Communite.
Luni 11-01-07, 01:10 AM	Could somebody link me the Community rules? I might make one of my characters a Communite. http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=13259041#post13259041 Thats the Communitylord thread. Agent rules appear to be the same as normal except your characters use either Elite array or normal array for stats.
lonewolf 11-01-07, 08:11 AM	Hmm... Perhaps I should bring up the ally thing in the courtroom. Given that Samuel's Pegasus is always ethereal, it would qualify every fight to be removed after 10 rounds, assuming I understand the ghost rules and manifesting correctly. Can a ghost share its manifesting with another ethereal creature? Delay rules only work against actual gladiators and not allies. Otherwise wou´d have to force every familiar to attack after 10 rounds to avoid delay penalties.
templer10 11-01-07, 09:50 AM	wierd question - Can an animal use an Animated shield if it's master speaks the command word for it to animate for it? as an alternative - since command words are usualy undefiend and are sometimes nonsensical sounds, can you teach an animal a trick to "say" (obviosly not a real word) the phonetic sounds needed to activate said animate shield? option 3- can you Craft an animated shield that it's command word are sounds an animal can make?
Macbrea 11-01-07, 09:59 AM	A person cannot activate a magic item for another character. Therefore, the animal would have to speak the command word itself. On the next one: Here is what druid's statement on wild shape states about animals. "A druid loses her ability to speak while in animal form because she is limited to the sounds that a normal, untrained animal can make, but she can communicate normally with other animals of the same general grouping as her new form. (The normal sound a wild parrot makes is a squawk, so changing to this form does not permit speech.)' Which would mean normally an animal would be unable to make a sound sufficient to activate a magic item. Some creatures might be able to actually be taught to do that such as a parrot or raven.
templer10 11-01-07, 10:31 AM	A person cannot activate a magic item for another character. Therefore, the animal would have to speak the command word itself. On the next one: Here is what druid's statement on wild shape states about animals. "A druid loses her ability to speak while in animal form because she is limited to the sounds that a normal, untrained animal can make, but she can communicate normally with other animals of the same general grouping as her new form. (The normal sound a wild parrot makes is a squawk, so changing to this form does not permit speech.)' Which would mean normally an animal would be unable to make a sound sufficient to activate a magic item. Some creatures might be able to actually be taught to do that such as a parrot or raven. i think you should be able to teach an animal to speak the command word, or alternativly - like i said- there is nothing preventing you from CREATING (or having it created) an animated shield (or anything else really) that as a command word is has "woof" or whatever else sound an animal can be tought to say as a trick - Think teaching a dog to bark in a certein order - as a response to a command word - it's defenintly possible. About command words: "A command word can be a real word, but when this is the case, the holder of the item runs the risk of activating the item accidentally by speaking the word in normal conversation. More often, the command word is some seemingly nonsensical word" emphatis mine - so it seems ther is nothing preventing from using a certein sound that an animal can make as a command word.
TelinArtho 11-01-07, 10:42 AM	Well templer10 - you have a long road to work your way through: 1. Can animals wear shields? 2. Can animals activate magic items with a command word? For the most part - the answer to the first question is no - with some exception. Anything that doesn't walk on all fours and has actual arms to grasp a shield could theoretically use a shield. If it had proficiency anyway (which isn't covered in the Combat Riding package). As for the command word - that is certainly debatable. I don't think it is possible - but if it was it certainly would require a custom item (because this is not just a standard command word), a custom trick (for elder approval).
Macbrea 11-01-07, 10:46 AM	As my dragon isn't allowed to wield weapons or shields. I doubt a horse can wield a shield.
templer10 11-01-07, 10:49 AM	Well templer10 - you have a long road to work your way through: 1. Can animals wear shields? 2. Can animals activate magic items with a command word? For the most part - the answer to the first question is no - with some exception. Anything that doesn't walk on all fours and has actual arms to grasp a shield could theoretically use a shield. If it had proficiency anyway (which isn't covered in the Combat Riding package). As for the command word - that is certainly debatable. I don't think it is possible - but if it was it certainly would require a custom item (because this is not just a standard command word), a custom trick (for elder approval). about the first- if the shield is animated there is no issue with using it, after all a druid wildshaped into an animal can still use said shield. for the second one- the only thing "custom" about it is the command word and since it doesnt say ANYWHERE what the command word MUST be- it can be anything -hell it say so right in the SRD that it can be any word, and words are made up of sounds, so i dotn think it should count as a custom item. for the third- i agree it probably a custom trick - a variation ot "Perform" probably.
TelinArtho 11-01-07, 10:54 AM	I disagree. The shield must be equipped in order to activate it. It can't just be on the floor or in a pack - you must have possession and have it in hand. Most animals just don't have this capacity.
TelinArtho 11-01-07, 11:02 AM	On another note - I am interested in running Aquin on a miniquest to gain a shark handled animal. Sharks of course aren't on our list of animals... Anyway - a huge shark should have a cHA of +14 (10 HD, CR4); large sharks should have a cHA of +9 (7HD, CR2); medium sharks should have a cHA of +4 (3HD, CR1). I'm not sure where they would fall in the required ECL of the creature - but since an Elasmosaurus (10HD, CR7, similar attack ability of a huge shark) is at ECL9 - I don't think it would be higher than Aquin's level anyway. So anyone interested in running one for me? Won't be right away. The key here is to make it an aquatic miniquest. EDIT: I might need a ruling on this. The way to calculate a character's Max cHA is by taking the character's ranks in HA, his CHA bonus and any feat bonuses. Did we specifically exclude Racial bonuses here? In any case, it looks like Aquin needs to boost his cHA before being able to get the sharks... he can't even get a large shark under the current rules... EDIT: On looking at it some more - it is probably pretty likely I will be question for RP purposes. Finding some way to squeeze out enough cHA for the purposes I was looking for just isn't possible, and since it would be for an ally that has no possible use in any arena map - it is completely useless. Anyway - back to the request - I guess I am more looking for a full quest for RP that is an aquatic adventure. The purpose would be to investigate the source of the destruction of the sahaugin clan he was the leader of and to investigate how he became fused with the soul of a dragon. Starting date is still a few weeks away.
MindWandererB 11-01-07, 02:53 PM	Delay rules only work against actual gladiators and not allies. Otherwise wou´d have to force every familiar to attack after 10 rounds to avoid delay penalties.Sort of... delay rules apply to the gladiator's "team" as a whole. Being invisible and summoning things doesn't count as delay. Letting your animal companion or cohort do all the work while you wait for it isn't delay. As long as something on your character sheet is doing something offensive, or trying to, it's not delay. Besides, the "out of arena" rules are a little different from delay. Re: floaty shields: I think command words have to be actual words. Otherwise, you could create an item (like a wand) usable by a druid in wild shape, which is clearly a no-no. I suppose a parrot might be able to be trained to use some items. Oddly, the rules say nothing that I can see about having to hold or equip an item before using its command word.
McJarvis 11-01-07, 03:02 PM	Oddly, the rules say nothing that I can see about having to hold or equip an item before using its command word. I think you'd have to. Otherwise you could pull a cloak of monteblank out of your pack, say a command word, and dimension door away. If it has a slot or manner in which it is worn, it really should have to be worn. (or weilded, in the case of a shield)
SoulLord 11-01-07, 06:56 PM	another thing to consider is that someone not proficient in the shield will incurr on it's penalty to use even if its animated A character with an animated shield still takes any penalties associated with shield use, such as armor check penalty, arcane spell failure chance, and nonproficiency.
MindWandererB 11-01-07, 08:44 PM	Question: if you cast Antilife Shell when there's another living creature within the area, are they allowed to stay there or does the spell end? Does it matter if it's shared with an animal companion? On a related note, I was looking at Magic Circle against Evil to see if that would help as a precedent (it doesn't), and I noticed that Magic Circle against Good, Law, or Chaos can be used to imprison nongood, nonlawful, or nonchaotic creatures. This doesn't make any sense: if you cast one of those normally, neutral summons can walk in, but if you cast the "inward" variant, neutral summons can't leave? But then again, the inward version works on called creatures, and the outward doesn't. So, meh.
Erithmu 11-01-07, 08:51 PM	Way I look at it (and MC spells as well). They don't end the spell, nor are they hedged out. But the spell takes effect if they move outside the emanation. So If your mounted on an animal (read as mount) then as long as the animal stays within the area they can stay there. The spell can be used to create a safe area for casters (aside from the fact that you cluster them together). So you cast it and have multiple people protected, as long as they don't leave the area they can stay, after that they are stuck outside.
templer10 11-01-07, 09:50 PM	Way I look at it (and MC spells as well). They don't end the spell, nor are they hedged out. But the spell takes effect if they move outside the emanation. So If your mounted on an animal (read as mount) then as long as the animal stays within the area they can stay there. The spell can be used to create a safe area for casters (aside from the fact that you cluster them together). So you cast it and have multiple people protected, as long as they don't leave the area they can stay, after that they are stuck outside. That's more or less how i always read it, after all a LOT of druids ride their animal companions.
MindWandererB 11-02-07, 01:14 AM	Other: If anyone knows how to get the older fights working again, PM me. I can't open half of her fights. My belief is that some threads have been pruned.I thought I got 'em all... I've asked for the restoration of the Battles of Gladius (I) thread. They've been pretty good about getting this sort of thing done lately. If anyone else runs across a thread that was archived and really shouldn't be, let me know.
whitebaron 11-02-07, 09:50 AM	On a related note, I was looking at Magic Circle against Evil to see if that would help as a precedent (it doesn't), and I noticed that Magic Circle against Good, Law, or Chaos can be used to imprison nongood, nonlawful, or nonchaotic creatures. This doesn't make any sense: if you cast one of those normally, neutral summons can walk in, but if you cast the "inward" variant, neutral summons can't leave? But then again, the inward version works on called creatures, and the outward doesn't. So, meh. about the protection from evil/magic circle lines: they are all extremely badly worded. have never seen a spell description as ambiguous as them. another question: ambush package. it says that you can start x squares = (x*5 ft) outside of your starting area. Does this follow the normal movement rules, or do diagonals count as just 1 square? if the former is the case, i'd want to have them rules rewritten to just state the 5ft*rank-difference. if the latter, i'd find it strange.
Luni 11-02-07, 11:45 AM	about the protection from evil/magic circle lines: they are all extremely badly worded. have never seen a spell description as ambiguous as them. another question: ambush package. it says that you can start x squares = (x*5 ft) outside of your starting area. Does this follow the normal movement rules, or do diagonals count as just 1 square? if the former is the case, i'd want to have them rules rewritten to just state the 5ft*rank-difference. if the latter, i'd find it strange. They should follow the normal rules. Every two diagonals count as 3 squares.
McJarvis 11-02-07, 11:48 AM	if the latter, i'd find it strange. If you're used to reading the monster manual it isn't. I think all the speeds there are listed in both feet and squares.
whitebaron 11-02-07, 11:54 AM	They should follow the normal rules. Every two diagonals count as 3 squares. ok, then Grumsh won't be directly in front of the other square, but like 30 ft away. :) doesnt matter in this fight - grumsh's skills are too high anyway.
TelinArtho 11-02-07, 03:25 PM	Thorell is a Deep Dwarf, which is mentioned to be "smaller than a regular dwarf". Dwarfs are listed as "the same weight as humans", and Thorell is merely slightly lighter than the minimum for female humans. Sources There are no specific rules that say the exact range of a Deep Dwarf in weight, so I did the best I could to approxomate the minimum. It should also be noted that text always trumps charts & tables, so it's perfectly within the rules to use human weights as a basis for dwarf weights instead of the listed dwarf weights in the appropriate tables. The height, however, is a typo. I concede that a deep dwarf is leaner than a regular dwarf. I have a hard time defining "leaner" as 50lbs off of 130lbs total (so the definition of "leaner" here is approximately a 40% reduction in weight?)...
McJarvis 11-02-07, 03:28 PM	I concede that a deep dwarf is leaner than a regular dwarf. I have a hard time defining "leaner" as 50lbs off of 130lbs total (so the definition of "leaner" here is approximately a 40% reduction in weight?)... Well, I seem to have accidently edited thorell to be a male after initially making her female. My bad on that count. Given that dwarves and humans are the same weight(text source), I then went to the chart. Given that text trumps charts, I used the human weight(female minimum ~85-90 lbs, as I recall) & made it leaner. (~15% reduction) Please note that I didn't really see the dwarf weights[on the chart] until after I'd made the character- since I regularly check the text weight listings. I'm pretty sure I have the right perspective though- those charts are guidelines rather than strict rules like the weights given in monster entries. edit- It should probably also be noted I generally don't like those charts in the PhB, and have always considered them suggestions more than anything else. Obviously we don't make players roll to see how heavy they are, yet that is the only method listed there by which to determine weight. Obviously I've met humans[hell- I even have friends from both genders] who fall outside those weight/height "restrictions". The only reason I've adhered to them on humans is because human height & weight is listed nowhere else in the books. [probably because we're expected to have immediate knowledge of this]
TelinArtho 11-02-07, 03:41 PM	Well - the enlightenment that Thorell is actually female certainly makes your case a lot more reasonable... I think I can work with that. I'm just remembering the incident with Cat's Half-giant listed as ~100lbs... I've also had similar incidents with Sir Valkin and Faelto in the past. Do note that I made an edit to the violation after the fact about your skills.
McJarvis 11-02-07, 03:45 PM	Well - the enlightenment that Thorell is actually female certainly makes your case a lot more reasonable... I think I can work with that. I'm just remembering the incident with Cat's Half-giant listed as ~100lbs... I've also had similar incidents with Sir Valkin and Faelto in the past. Do note that I made an edit to the violation after the fact about your skills. Is there any way we can houserule that the weights be merged & genderless? I *hate* having to pick male or female for optimization purposes.
MindWandererB 11-02-07, 03:48 PM	edit- It should probably also be noted I generally don't like those charts in the PhB, and have always considered them suggestions more than anything else. Obviously we don't make players roll to see how heavy they are, yet that is the only method listed there by which to determine weight. Obviously I've met humans[hell- I even have friends from both genders] who fall outside those weight/height "restrictions". The only reason I've adhered to them on humans is because human height & weight is listed nowhere else in the books. [probably because we're expected to have immediate knowledge of this]The 2e PHB has this to say: The tallest man on record stood 8 feet 11.1 inches, while the tallest woman was 8 feet 1.25 inches. The shortest man was only 26.5 inches tall and the shortest woman bettered this at only 24 inches in height. While the lightest humans are also among the shortest, the heaviest man weighed an esitmated 1,400 pounds and stood only 6 feet 1 inch. The heaviest woman is thought to have weighed 880 pounds. Obviously, these figures indicate that there is a great variety possible for player characters.Of course, since this is a competitive game, we can't be quite that liberal. It does provide an empirical advantage for a mounted character to be abnormally light, and you certainly can't change your size category. Although now that I do the math, I'm below the minimum weight for those charts (both 2e and 3e)....
McJarvis 11-02-07, 03:49 PM	The 2e PHB has this to say: Of course, since this is a competitive game, we can't be quite that liberal. It does provide an empirical advantage for a mounted character to be abnormally light, and you certainly can't change your size category. Although now that I do the math, I'm below the minimum weight for those charts (both 2e and 3e).... Of course, in competitive horse-racing we do tend to pick small people and call them "jockies" ;) Seriously tho- I think even taking the lightest and shortest medium sized character & making those the mins, then doing the same for max's, would be more satisfying. Then you could potentially be a human as short as a dwarf if you wanted.
Hirumajoe 11-02-07, 03:51 PM	Is there any way we can houserule that the weights be merged & genderless? I *hate* having to pick male or female for optimization purposes. Set yourself a challenge and go mountless. Thats what I did with Kai Engel, and he's a human that weighs 200lbs. Shocking I know. :D Of course, given his track record, there may be something to be said for optimization and mounts...
McJarvis 11-02-07, 03:58 PM	Set yourself a challenge and go mountless. Thats what I did with Kai Engel, and he's a human that weighs 200lbs. Shocking I know. :D Of course, given his track record, there may be something to be said for optimization and mounts... Actually- the reason I do mounted characters is because I can't at tabletop sessions locally. I've always loved the idea of mounted warriors- but because DM's always want to remove the advantage, I never get to play actual characters that use the associated feats.
MindWandererB 11-02-07, 04:32 PM	Set yourself a challenge and go mountless. Thats what I did with Kai Engel, and he's a human that weighs 200lbs. Shocking I know. :D Of course, given his track record, there may be something to be said for optimization and mounts... I thought about getting amount for Gakhnalak at one point... then I saw how much he weighed.... I can see merging the genders, so as to not restrict the roleplay options, but merging races is something I'd rather not do.
McJarvis 11-02-07, 04:33 PM	I can see merging the genders, so as to not restrict the roleplay options, but merging races is something I'd rather not do. I'll take what I can get. Can you add it to the council docket? I'd rather not break the flow of any discussions on credits.
Luni 11-02-07, 04:48 PM	Set yourself a challenge and go mountless. Thats what I did with Kai Engel, and he's a human that weighs 200lbs. Shocking I know. :D Of course, given his track record, there may be something to be said for optimization and mounts... Mounted characters are so much fun! I did have a dwarf who was heading towards dwarven defender at one point. Maybe we should start a no-mounts, no magical increase to speed tournament. See how well these guys do with no mounts, or expeditous retreat. :)
McJarvis 11-02-07, 04:51 PM	Maybe we should start a no-mounts, no magical increase to speed tournament. See how well these guys do with no mounts, or expeditous retreat. :) <_< >_> I dunno what the problem with expeditious retreat is. If my second round of buffing is dedicated to retreating then my opponent can't be in bad shape, eh? ;) Of course- there was mort, who never used her mount[a snake] & rarely increased her speed...
Luni 11-02-07, 05:03 PM	<_< >_> I dunno what the problem with expeditious retreat is. If my second round of buffing is dedicated to retreating then my opponent can't be in bad shape, eh? ;) Of course- there was mort, who never used her mount[a snake] & rarely increased her speed... Expeditious retreat isn't that bad. I just mis-spoke. :) Mounts are probably the biggest advantage in the CoCo. Maybe we should make a map that is only 5' wide to negate mounts completely on it. Something more cramped then the sewers. :)
TelinArtho 11-02-07, 05:09 PM	Characters that are listed as using their allies with CR instead of ECL ECL13 Samuel - Peraxephiel (should be ECL6) ECL12 Lord Lorian - Super Wing (should be ECL7) and Wing (should be ECL6) ECL9 Monsieur Hood - Hope (should be ECL7) ECL8 Antalya - Pegasus (should be ECL6)
templer10 11-02-07, 05:25 PM	Characters that are listed as using their allies with CR instead of ECL ECL13 Samuel - Peraxephiel (should be ECL6) ECL12 Lord Lorian - Super Wing (should be ECL7) and Wing (should be ECL6) ECL9 Monsieur Hood - Hope (should be ECL7) ECL8 Antalya - Pegasus (should be ECL6) Actualyl i never payed much attention to Lord lorian allies - how the math on ally rewards works on them i mean - that might explain why some of the time i got diffrent rewards lol. note that when i got both of them originaly i wgot them based on ECL.
Callix 11-02-07, 06:11 PM	Maybe we should start a no-mounts, no magical increase to speed tournament. See how well these guys do with no mounts, or expeditous retreat. :) Can Ralein sign up now? He'll just forget about his tattoos of Skate, and rely on Speed of Thought. Probably too low level, but it's his kinda gig.
Hirumajoe 11-02-07, 06:23 PM	I know Dispel Psionics was recently changed, but I was trying to find a post saying that Energy Missile and Energy Stun were changed to 1 DC for every 2 pp added (rather than 1). Where is that posted, or am I mis-remembering that? Thanks.
Luni 11-02-07, 06:23 PM	Can Ralein sign up now? He'll just forget about his tattoos of Skate, and rely on Speed of Thought. Probably too low level, but it's his kinda gig. If there is lots of demand for some non-mounted gladiator fights, I'll go approach MWB about it. While I don't want to upsurp him or the Elders, I'll see what I can ask for. Maybe a theme week or something. :) One week in advance is going to be a no mounts fight. Having an "optional" tournament would probably be real hard on MWB. He'd have to keep track of individual people being here or there and so on.
TelinArtho 11-02-07, 06:28 PM	I know Dispel Psionics was recently changed, but I was trying to find a post saying that Energy Missile and Energy Stun were changed to 1 DC for every 2 pp added (rather than 1). Where is that posted, or am I mis-remembering that? Thanks. Here is where you can start. Energy stun was never touched to my knowledge though.
MindWandererB 11-02-07, 07:28 PM	Here is where you can start. Energy stun was never touched to my knowledge though. It should have been, though. It uses the same +1 DC/PP mechanic. It's just not used as often because we have so many kineticists, and the damage on Stun is poor and the stun effect unlikely.
mucki 11-03-07, 08:52 AM	Thinking about tactics for our last fight I realized that I know pretty little about how the 3rd dimension (ie: up) actually works in DnD combat. Two specific issues that come to mind are: how high are riders ? and how high does a torch actually light (does it start at 0', so that up to and including 20' are well lit, or does it start at 5' because you actually hold the torch in your hand) ? Is there a rules summary about this somewhere ?
Vathelokai 11-03-07, 09:03 AM	Mounted characters are considered to share the space of their mount, so a medium creature on a large mount (e.g., paladin on a horse) is considered to be anywhere inside the mounts space. I don't think there is a light rule, but lighting is usually an emanation, so it would come from one corner of your square. I'm not sure where in the SRD these things are... sorry about that. Anyone else know? Linky?
whitebaron 11-03-07, 09:05 AM	for the light: as you can choose the corner of your square (read: cube 3d) for such purposes, you can as well chose the upper one. for the rider: a rider is subsumed in the creature he rides. so, if you ride a huge creature, all the squares of your mount are also places where you are (thus, more squares to target you, though you are still your original size.)
Vathelokai 11-03-07, 12:26 PM	Side note: I added a link to the community thread in my sig directory. I was looking over the rules and spotted this...Confidence Course Rules: Each player takes one agent with them. These agents may not be targeted by, or included in the area of effects of, any spell or effect created by a PC. They may also not be teleported along with a PC. Victory: Whoever's agent reaches the end of the course is the winner. Special: Recovery rules apply. Eligible maps: Special. This is similar to something I proposed (a 'gauntlet') when we came up with new maps and free for alls and such. I've always wanted to try this out, so I'll give a shot at fleshing it out. WIll post in a bit. Is anyone interested in this type of obstacle course compitition? In general or for playtesing it? If you don't want to deal with community stuff, then change 'agent' to 'escort a random commoner npc through a dangerous area'.
Vathelokai 11-03-07, 01:16 PM	Okay, here's my rough draft for a Confidence course. Everything subject to change. Object: The obstacle course is timed. The total number of rounds needed to complete the course is compared against other teams and the team with the quickest time wins. Play: Teams do not interact with each other at all. Each team starts in a safe room (30 ft cube with one door). The 'starting square' is the 10 ft square in the center. When the team reaches the intesection in the hall, they can pick one of two ways to go. The pitlord rolls two rooms, and the player picks which one they enter. The team automaticly understands the full extent of each challenge when they encounter it (so teams are not penalized time wise for figuring out how to pass a room). The characters have done their research, and know more or less what they are up against. If an agent is killed, then they are intstantly transported (with their accompanying PC) back to the start square. They wake up in 1d4 rounds with half of their max hp and all status ailments corrected. If the obstacle in a room prohibits the characters from progressing, then they can either return to the start room (as though the agent had died, but the agent retains their hp), or they may go back to the hall and try the other path. The dungeon itself is covered in types of anti-magic. Any dimentional travel is blocked (except returning to the start upon death). Random: Each character and the agent they are escorting must travel though 3 rooms consecutively, with the agent surviving to reach the end. The winner is the agent who makes it to the end space in the shortest ammount of time (in rounds). Unless otherwise specified: rooms are 30 ft cubes; hallways are 20 ft long, where they split in a 'Y' intersection, and are another 20 ft to the next room; doors are appropriately sized for the characters and agents. No allies are allowed (not even class allies). Only the PC and the agent. The 'timer' ends when the character ends their round past the final door. Obstacles: Obstacles are picked randomly at intersections. Players always understand the obstacles. The obstacles are rolled on the following list. trap chasm room water tunnel balance room lore room locked room fiery corridor sheer drop appraisal guard animal target practice reflexes cramped tunnel heavy load plant room Definitions of obstacles are here. trap: A trap from the SRD is randomly rolled. The CR of the trap matches the ECL of the agent. (note: the player knows that the room has a trap, but not which specific trap.) chasm room: This room has a wide chasm running across the center. The DC to jump the chasm is 10 + ecl of the PC. water tunnel: This room is a 60 ft long basin of stagnant water. The pool is 10 ft deep. The ceiling is 10 ft above the water. There is a small ledge on each edge of the water that can be walked on with a balance check. The walls are rough, but wet, and can be climbed across. The characters can swim, or even pull themselves across by holding the edge. balance room: This room is a masive chasm with pillars comming up from the darkness. The pillars are connected by a series of balance beams (the beams are attached with soverign glue). The skiniest beams go straight across (high balance DC). The widest beams take a longer path across (lowest DC). lore room: This room has 3 doors with pictures on them. Upon entering the pitlord rolls a type of knowledge (note: at the intersection, the player knows it's a lore room, but not what type of lore). A magic mouth appears and states which door is the real one. The other 2 teleport the character back to the start room. Characters with appropriate knowledge skills roll against a DC to pick the correct door. Players without can pick a door at random or go back down the hall to the other encounter. locked room: There is a big lock on the exit door. The key is hidden somewhere in the room. Characters without the patients for such things can try to chop through the lock. fiery corridor: This hall is 40 ft long, 10 wide, and 10 tall. It is filled with magic flame that does 1d6 dmg per round (no save). sheer drop: The characters must climb down a 30 ft wall to get to the exit. The wall is not incredibly difficult to climb. appraisal: This room has 3 golden doors. 2 are real gold and 1 is not. The two gold doors are traped to send the players back to the start room, the fake one is the real exit. guard animal: A vicious dog (or something) is chained to and blocking the exit door. Players must calm it down to get past it. target practice: This hall is blocked in the center by a portucullis. 20 ft on the far side of the portcullis is a switch that lifts it. Hitting the switch (ac of tiny object) lifts the portullis. reflexes: When they enter this room, they hear the click of a portcullis about to drop. The players roll initiative vs the portcullis (1d20-2). If they win init, they can move through before the portcullis drops. cramped tunnel: There is a 15 ft long tunnel that is very small, the characters have to squeeze through it. {note: I was thinking of escape artist when I wrote this, but looking at the RAW, I don't know if it would work} heavy load: This room has an exit and a very large rock on one wall, and a preasure plate next to the opposite wall. The characters must move the rock onto the plate, which keeps the door open. (note, the preasure plate works instantly, so the characters cannot both stand on the plate and then rush the door). plant room: This room has a very low ceiling (10 ft), and a permenant entangle spell covering it.
Taeldrin Laesrash 11-03-07, 03:50 PM	Er, hello. Newcomer here. I DM for some duels on another part of the board, and I frequent the RA board, so I thought this would be cool. As fitting the long instructions, I've posted my character and the link to the post. If you could help a beginner out, I'd be very grateful. Thanks. Anelthia (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14239688&postcount=1258)
McJarvis 11-03-07, 03:57 PM	Er, hello. Newcomer here. I DM for some duels on another part of the board, and I frequent the RA board, so I thought this would be cool. As fitting the long instructions, I've posted my character and the link to the post. If you could help a beginner out, I'd be very grateful. Thanks. Anelthia (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14239688&postcount=1258) Psionics meditation & nothing to use a psionic focus for? You planning for the future?
whitebaron 11-03-07, 03:58 PM	Er, hello. Newcomer here. I DM for some duels on another part of the board, and I frequent the RA board, so I thought this would be cool. As fitting the long instructions, I've posted my character and the link to the post. If you could help a beginner out, I'd be very grateful. Thanks. Anelthia (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14239688&postcount=1258) hi, and welcome. as for the sheet: - get rid of that blue conditional tags if you don't use it. i prefer adding the conditional things in blue where they can be used, others use a conditional block. don't use both. - if you want to ready your character for next week, you need to copy the ECL3... part into your title line, too. -add in the uses of the boots of stomping, as you will have to keep track of that, too. - the closing color tag for your concentration skill is missing. the build: - i don't like your expendables. they are most likely to be used up in one fight, so you need to do the other 2 without any of their options. i'd go for cheaper things for the first few fights - but your choice. - notice that dorjes and wands don't fall under the expendable rules. so in the long run, it pays off to get one of these for your main-buffs.
Vathelokai 11-03-07, 05:30 PM	Er, hello. Newcomer here. I DM for some duels on another part of the board, and I frequent the RA board, so I thought this would be cool. As fitting the long instructions, I've posted my character and the link to the post. If you could help a beginner out, I'd be very grateful. Thanks. Anelthia (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14239688&postcount=1258) Picking up a ranged attack is a necessity. You'll be dealing with expiditous retreat casters and mounted warriors, so you cannot guarantee that you'll be in melee. Trading psi-dodge or speed of thought for something to use your psionic focus on would be a good trade. Tumble is trained only. You need at least one rank in psicraft to use powerstones. You have ride listed with a jump synergy. Good luck, and welcome to the coliseum!
Vathelokai 11-03-07, 05:40 PM	Questions about the playtest thread.... We have three people volunteered to run fights, but so far only Rauul has set his character to try them out. None of my characters are at the same ecl, or I'd challenge the Shadow. I'll be setting up some of my characters to playtest the alternate fights this week. Anyone else thinking of trying them out?
whitebaron 11-03-07, 05:52 PM	Questions about the playtest thread.... We have three people volunteered to run fights, but so far only Rauul has set his character to try them out. None of my characters are at the same ecl, or I'd challenge the Shadow. I'll be setting up some of my characters to playtest the alternate fights this week. Anyone else thinking of trying them out? the problem is: i don't get the rules for this, and none of my characters has enough fame to do anything that matters in this system, really. i think the most basic problem of this is that there is some lack of planning on what could/should be tested. nobody knows, and so nobody does.
Luni 11-03-07, 06:14 PM	Questions about the playtest thread.... We have three people volunteered to run fights, but so far only Rauul has set his character to try them out. None of my characters are at the same ecl, or I'd challenge the Shadow. I'll be setting up some of my characters to playtest the alternate fights this week. Anyone else thinking of trying them out? I've been working on a character for it as well. I just need to finish it up.
Rauul 11-03-07, 06:15 PM	Questions about the playtest thread.... We have three people volunteered to run fights, but so far only Rauul has set his character to try them out. None of my characters are at the same ecl, or I'd challenge the Shadow. I'll be setting up some of my characters to playtest the alternate fights this week. Anyone else thinking of trying them out? Well i am gonna Set Shadow, and his lvl 1 agent in there... there are agent challenges LOL.. and some of the challenges don't matter vs ECL @whitebaron Reputaion don't matter.. i am also setting Gol'le and Gortek avalable for it.. (ECL 3,4,6).. each with an agent...
Salrantol 11-03-07, 06:50 PM	Er, hello. Newcomer here. I DM for some duels on another part of the board, and I frequent the RA board, so I thought this would be cool. As fitting the long instructions, I've posted my character and the link to the post. If you could help a beginner out, I'd be very grateful. Thanks. Anelthia (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14239688&postcount=1258)You might want to note the duration of Expansion when buying powerstones. Duration: 1 round./level (D) (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/psionicPowersDtoF.html#expansion)
SauroGrenom 11-03-07, 07:18 PM	You might want to note the duration of Expansion when buying powerstones. Duration: 1 round./level (D) (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/psionicPowersDtoF.html#expansion) Salrantol makes a good point here, but you can get around that by buying augmented ML3 stones. These puppies have a much longer durration.
MindWandererB 11-03-07, 07:19 PM	Psionics meditation & nothing to use a psionic focus for? You planning for the future?It's a moot point- Psi Meditation requires 7 ranks of Concentration--impossible for an ECL 3 character. volunteer to do any pitlording that comes up, and is not yet taken. on a side note: it would be nice to set up some schedule what you want to do, and when. its hard for people to have only rudimental information, and trying to go for it anyway. (see rauul, he seems to be the one most interested in doing this, and still - he would need some support out there.)Okay, let me clarify some of the issues. If you are interested in having a PC participate: Copy your character sheet into the Playtest thread. This is the equivalent of saying, "please sign me up for something!" You can specify particular challenges if you want; otherwise, I'll assign you to whatever comes up. If you are interested in having an Agent participate: Stat up the agent and post it in the Playtest thread. Remember, the rules for "buying" agents don't apply right now because this is only a playtest; basically, everyone has infinite fame for the purpose of buying agents. If you are interested in Pitlording: You seem to have that part down. What will happen: Once there are enough "sign me up" posts to put together a Challenge, I'll fill in the details. So we'd need a few PCs with compatible ECLs, or a few Agents. When the necessary "components" are there, I'll add the playtest fight to the pairings post immediately and the pitlord can start when ready. @Vath: Most of that seems viable, although I'd clean up the terminology a bit. There is one aspect to my proposal that isn't in yours, namely an equalizing factor. The way I had is set up where you quote it, the agents run the challenge but the PCs are present. PCs can therefore buff their agents, and attack other PCs, but can't interfere with other agents. Of course, these could be two different challenge types.
whitebaron 11-03-07, 07:24 PM	one final question here: your character is NOT considered active for the playtesting, right?
lonewolf 11-03-07, 07:42 PM	@lonewolf - Natural weapons are not eligible for an extra attack from haste. Only actual weapons are improved this way. I disagree: When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding. The attack is made using the creature’s full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This effect is not cumulative with similar effects, such as that provided by a weapon of speed, nor does it actually grant an extra action, so you can’t use it to cast a second spell or otherwise take an extra action in the round.) A natural weapon most certainly is a weapon and attacking with multiple natural weapons also requires a full attack action. I dont see the problem.
MindWandererB 11-03-07, 07:45 PM	one final question here: your character is NOT considered active for the playtesting, right? Correct. You can even double-book. The "snapshot" you copy into the playtest thread will be taken as it is. You can even leave it there, go up two levels, and still use the version that's there (or update it as you please). Heck, I'd even be okay if you levelled it up differently than you do your "real" copy. @lonewolf: <groan> I hate to say it, because it's dumb, but a natural weapon is not a "weapon you are holding."
Taeldrin Laesrash 11-03-07, 08:15 PM	Thanks for pointing the errors out. I've fixed them. Psionic Meditation was a holdover from when the build had Extend Power, but now I see I can't use it at all. I'd sign up for the playtest, but I just want to get used to the normal CoCo first. Good luck, though.
Taureus_Drakken 11-03-07, 09:42 PM	Er, hello. Newcomer here. I DM for some duels on another part of the board, and I frequent the RA board, so I thought this would be cool. As fitting the long instructions, I've posted my character and the link to the post. If you could help a beginner out, I'd be very grateful. Thanks. Anelthia (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14239688&postcount=1258) Aside from everything already mentioned, and seems to have been edited, your base save should be Fort=3 Ref=1 Will=1. Not Fort=3 Ref=3 Will=3. Other than that, welcome to the CoCo, and good luck. ¬Taureus¬
Vathelokai 11-03-07, 11:48 PM	@Vath: Most of that seems viable, although I'd clean up the terminology a bit. There is one aspect to my proposal that isn't in yours, namely an equalizing factor. The way I had is set up where you quote it, the agents run the challenge but the PCs are present. PCs can therefore buff their agents, and attack other PCs, but can't interfere with other agents. Of course, these could be two different challenge types. Ah ha...Each player takes one agent with them. These agents may not be targeted by, or included in the area of effects of, any spell or effect created by a PC. They may also not be teleported along with a PC. I took that to mean that the PC could not buff their own agent, but you seem to mean that they can not effect other agents. Those would be two very different challenges. Were you thinking a free for all between agents, where the PCs are present, but cannot attack? Interesting...
MindWandererB 11-04-07, 01:44 AM	Ah ha... I took that to mean that the PC could not buff their own agent, but you seem to mean that they can not effect other agents. Those would be two very different challenges. Were you thinking a free for all between agents, where the PCs are present, but cannot attack? Interesting... Actually, you're right... I forgot what my own intention was. There are several ways we could go with this, and we can try any, all, or none of them. My actual original vision was sort of Lemmings-style: The PCs can attack each other, but all they can do otherwise is create environmental effects and attack each other. Although now that I think of it, we'd need a few more restrictions ("Here, Mr. Level 2 Fighter. Have a Huge Earth Elemental.") PCs go at it themselves, no contact with each other. PCs go at it, with contact but with recovery rules. Agents go at it alone, no contact with each other. Agents go at it alone, with contact but with recovery rules. PCs can use only effects that target their agents. Agents do not contact each other. PCs can use only effects that target their agents. Agents do contact each other, with recovery rules. Screw the obstacle course; PCs can use only effects that target their agents, and agents just kill each other. Probably more.
mucki 11-04-07, 01:35 PM	thanks :)
whitebaron 11-04-07, 02:35 PM	i have posted a violation on enoch, but i'm still not sure i get it right: do nightmare skeletons take flight? i believe as nightmares have no flight(su) ability, their skeletons have neither.
MindWandererB 11-04-07, 03:00 PM	i have posted a violation on enoch, but i'm still not sure i get it right: do nightmare skeletons take flight? i believe as nightmares have no flight(su) ability, their skeletons have neither. Flight (Ex or Su): A creature with this ability can cease or resume flight as a free action. If the ability is supernatural, it becomes ineffective in an antimagic field, and the creature loses its ability to fly for as long as the antimagic effect persists.Flight is always either (Ex) or (Su). We generally assume that it's (Ex) if they have wings, (Su) otherwise. Same goes for the ogre mage.
whitebaron 11-04-07, 03:19 PM	well, the ogre mage has flight(su) explicitly stated, the nightmare doesn't. i figured that this would be what to search for. if it is according to wings, who defines which creatures actually have wings? it is not noted in the srd, and using a picture for this seems odd.
whitebaron 11-04-07, 03:38 PM	other question http://www.hwx.it/coco/coco.php;v=1;map=temple;a=G,M,25,6,Gorte k;b=W,M,4,4,Wroth;c=P,M,4,27,Petyr;los=2 5,6,4,27,4;style=s no one can see the others, right?
lonewolf 11-04-07, 03:43 PM	correct
Eamane 11-04-07, 04:13 PM	inzin's animal companion has the Deflect arrows feat and he doesnt have the prerequiste feat (improved unarmed strike), haveing a natural weapon is no longer enough. (check the faq). Can you please provide page numbers? I just downloaded the most recent 3.5 FAQ and went through the Feat, Player and Monster sections finding no indication of this. I would be highly surprised if this were so, as their official policy on D.Arrows is that natural weapon replaces improved unarmed strike as have been stated in many supplements.
Salrantol 11-04-07, 04:23 PM	well, the ogre mage has flight(su) explicitly stated, the nightmare doesn't. i figured that this would be what to search for.http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG195.jpg I am very curious how you think they fly nonmagically.if it is according to wings, who defines which creatures actually have wings? it is not noted in the srd, and using a picture for this seems odd.Why is that odd? Wings are quite visually distinguishable.
templer10 11-04-07, 04:34 PM	Can you please provide page numbers? I just downloaded the most recent 3.5 FAQ and went through the Feat, Player and Monster sections finding no indication of this. I would be highly surprised if this were so, as their official policy on D.Arrows is that natural weapon replaces improved unarmed strike as have been stated in many supplements. My bad- it's in the courtroom: Q: Do natural attacks of some type count the same as the feat Improved Unarmed Strike as far as meeting prereq's for other feats? A: No. A couple of monsters in the Monster Manual seem to show this, however this has proven to be an error with those individual monsters.
McJarvis 11-04-07, 04:43 PM	Can you please provide page numbers? I just downloaded the most recent 3.5 FAQ and went through the Feat, Player and Monster sections finding no indication of this. I would be highly surprised if this were so, as their official policy on D.Arrows is that natural weapon replaces improved unarmed strike as have been stated in many supplements. black & white is what they ask for, black & white is what they get. it's worth pointing out that a character making an unarmed attack, even with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, does not have natural weapons. Nor is a natural weapon a substitute for the Improved Unarmed Strike feat. We ruled it the other way for the longest time- then this RotG article came out & about half of gladius went to prison.
whitebaron 11-04-07, 04:54 PM	I am very curious how you think they fly nonmagically.Why is that odd? Wings are quite visually distinguishable. yes, they are. and images, they only represent the ARTISTS view of things. you can't take images to literally, as they are NEVER done by people that write the sourcebooks. want an example? look at dragonmarked. the text says "... has no dragonmark" - the image shows him with a big fat dragonmark. there really should be another way to distinguish this. btw: i've already seen two nightmares with wings - from other artists...
lonewolf 11-04-07, 04:56 PM	yes, they are. and they represent the ARTISTS view of things. you can't take images to literally, as they are NEVER done by people that write the sourcebooks. want an example? look at dragonmarked. the text says "... has no dragonmark" - the image shows him with a big fat dragonmark. there really should be another way to distinguish this. And what are you suggesting? I admit that looking at pictures may not be the ideal solution, but I think its the only one we´ve got.
whitebaron 11-04-07, 05:03 PM	I admit that looking at pictures may not be the ideal solution, but I think its the only one we´ve got. yep. maybe. and there are even creatures that have no image entries... though i don't know if any of them flies...
Eamane 11-04-07, 05:30 PM	Re: Unarmed Strike ... Geh. Ye gods I hate Rules of the Game sometimes. I mean, if it was just a mistake in the Monster Manual, maybe. But it was supported by several splat books, ranging from monster-oriented ones to druid-based. But as I recall, we use RotG > supplements, so thats that. Re: Nightmare Nightmares have been consistently portrayed in D&D (from Basic through 3.5) as without wings. Hydra on the other hand, have definitely had some face-lifts over the years.. and 3.5 ettercaps just egh... Also, I'll do some qouting from the MM 3.5; Although it has no wings, the creature can fly with great speed.
Luni 11-04-07, 06:04 PM	Flight is always either (Ex) or (Su). We generally assume that it's (Ex) if they have wings, (Su) otherwise. Same goes for the ogre mage. Beholder flight is (Ex) and it doesn't have wings. :) Nightmares fly magically in my opinion.
Vathelokai 11-05-07, 04:19 AM	Stormwind? Long time no see. :)
hogarth 11-05-07, 09:53 AM	New FAQ is out. The only thing worth noting is the following: - Protection from Evil now protects against daze, sleep and Tashas Hideous Laugther, since those are Enchantment spells that enable the caster to exercise Mental control over the subject. NO!!! Not Reginald Molehusband's sweet, sweet Brain Lock! It will be missed... :weep: :P
McJarvis 11-05-07, 09:58 AM	NO!!! Not Reginald Molehusband's sweet, sweet Brain Lock! It will be missed... :weep: :P Well, brain lock wasn't specifically mentioned... <_< >_>
TelinArtho 11-05-07, 11:07 AM	Okay - I'm trying to find the previous discussion on the large creature in the threatened area, but it is currently not something I can find. It would help me a lot if someone could remember who the original player was that had it happen. I'm fairly certain it is a fight that Sauro ran, but beyond that I'm not real certain about any of the specifics. The original discussion does appear to be contained in a FotW thread - which of course I don't keep archives on... I probably should though. Anyway - if anyone remembers the events or a more specific time frame - any of it would be a great help.
lonewolf 11-05-07, 11:14 AM	for all those interested: I have started a discussion about this topic in the apropriate part of this forum here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=14253729#post14253729).
lonewolf 11-05-07, 11:54 AM	Does a druid need to speak Auran to order an elemental to transfor into a whirlwind and carry an enemy out of the city? I think he does...
McJarvis 11-05-07, 12:11 PM	How many creatures can you share spells with at once? For instance- if you were a druid/wizard with a familiar & riding an AC?
TelinArtho 11-05-07, 12:15 PM	Does a druid need to speak Auran to order an elemental to transfor into a whirlwind and carry an enemy out of the city? I think he does... Unless the elemental can speak common (or another common language between the druid and the elemental) - I would say yes the druid would need to speak the language of the elemental to issue instructions. How many creatures can you share spells with at once? For instance- if you were a druid/wizard with a familiar & riding an AC? There's no limit - though some combinations may be difficult with the need to stay within 5ft of each other.
templer10 11-05-07, 12:25 PM	Does a druid need to speak Auran to order an elemental to transfor into a whirlwind and carry an enemy out of the city? I think he does... I beg to differ - we have NEVER required a correct languge from any of the many many summoners around this place- especially the Monster summoners who give their summons convulved tactics, even through they are sometimes very dumb monsters, and here it's a smart monster who does what is it's main offensive tactics anyway. Just a small example are spiders which are commonly used to shoot webs and when they target is entangled stay ther to keep up with the entangling and NOT goin to attack and there are many examples like it. another example are normally dumb monsters which know to flank enemies, set up dives, etc etc - all becuase their master - who doesnt know the languge tell them 2. Also note- the SNA and summon monster spell give some form of limited communication to the summoned creature- otherwise you couldnt direct it at all and they will simply wander around the place aimlesly. p.s - I would think a VERY common tactic for an air elemental vs a smaller opponent is to whirlwind, get up as high as it can and drop the whirlwinded creatures, after all it know gravity will kill them...
TelinArtho 11-05-07, 12:27 PM	Ah - if this is a summoned creature - my opnion on the matter is different - as the summoned creature attacks to the best of its ability according to the summoner's direction. There is no language requirement for the summon spells.
Hirumajoe 11-05-07, 12:33 PM	Ah - if this is a summoned creature - my opnion on the matter is different - as the summoned creature attacks to the best of its ability according to the summoner's direction. There is no language requirement for the summon spells. Actually there is a language requirement, if you want it to do anything other than attack your enemies. No where does it say it attacks according to the summoner's direction... It just attacks your enemies (to the best of its ability). It explicitly states you need to be able to communicate with it to attack particular enemies. Thus, a particular tactic on a particular enemy would presumably require communication. From Summon Monster I: This spell summons an extraplanar creature (typically an outsider, elemental, or magical beast native to another plane). It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions. From Summon Nature's Ally I This spell summons a natural creature. It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions.
templer10 11-05-07, 12:40 PM	Actually there is a language requirement, if you want it to do anything other than attack your enemies. No where does it say it attacks according to the summoner's direction... It just attacks your enemies (to the best of its ability). It explicitly states you need to be able to communicate with it to attack particular enemies. Thus, a particular tactic on a particular enemy would presumably require communication. From Summon Monster I: This spell summons an extraplanar creature (typically an outsider, elemental, or magical beast native to another plane). It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions. From Summon Nature's Ally I This spell summons a natural creature. It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions. The thing is - we simply havent been running it this way - we have always treated summoned creatures, especially intelligent one's as something we can direct pretty much as we want. regrdless from that - as i said, in this spesific situation- for an Air elemtal, especially a Huge air elemental faced with a medium target, whirlwind IS the best option.
lonewolf 11-05-07, 12:43 PM	The thing is - we simply havent been running it this way - we have always treated summoned creatures, especially intelligent one's as something we can direct pretty much as we want. regrdless from that - as i said, in this spesific situation- for an Air elemtal, especially a Huge air elemental faced with a medium target, whirlwind IS the best option. Whirlwind? probably yes. But there is no way a summoned Air elemental knows that carrying its prey into the air will cause epic level mages to kill it. That is information only Elrick has access to.
templer10 11-05-07, 12:56 PM	Whirlwind? probably yes. But there is no way a summoned Air elemental knows that carrying its prey into the air will cause epic level mages to kill it. That is information only Elrick has access to. Whirlwind essenialy Exists just so An elemntal can pick stuff up and throw them from great heights to their deaths - that's what it does essentially, all it has to do is follow that same instinct - it doesnt HAVE to know that going over 50 means the end of the fight. regrdless of the fact - you simply can't ignore the fact we have never required specific knowledge of language from summoners before and doing so now, in mid fight, when this exact tactics are my MIAN tacitcs, after tactics have been shown for a few days (and reviewed by MWB btw), is simply unfair.
lonewolf 11-05-07, 01:09 PM	Whirlwind essenialy Exists just so An elemntal can pick stuff up and throw them from great heights to their deaths - that's what it does essentially, all it has to do is follow that same instinct - it doesnt HAVE to know that going over 50 means the end of the fight. regrdless of the fact - you simply can't ignore the fact we have never required specific knowledge of language from summoners before and doing so now, in mid fight, when this exact tactics are my MIAN tacitcs, after tactics have been shown for a few days (and reviewed by MWB btw), is simply unfair. 1. The Timing of the issue should not matter. Its no more or less unfair than seeing this problem at once. 2. Im inclined to agree with you on the whirlwind, but I will let others way in for a little more time before making the final decision.
Hirumajoe 11-05-07, 01:14 PM	1. The Timing of the issue should not matter. Its no more or less unfair than seeing this problem at once. 2. Im inclined to agree with you on the whirlwind, but I will let others way in for a little more time before making the final decision. I'd just like to point out, if the Air elemental doesn't realize that 50' = *BOOM*, then its probably not carrying the victim at its top (having presumably picked it up at its base). Since a Huge Air Elemental can be anywhere from 10' to 50' tall, and since its victim isn't riding it, and thus doesn't occupy all the spaces the Air elemental does, the Air Elemental will hit the 50' ceiling long before the victim does. Which probably makes it a moot point. You need the Air Elemental to be bull rushing the opponent into the air for this to work. Just some food for thought, which may make the entire language discussion less relevant (although very important for future fights).
whitebaron 11-05-07, 01:33 PM	I beg to differ - we have NEVER required a correct languge from any of the many many summoners around this place- especially the Monster summoners who give their summons convulved tactics, even through they are sometimes very dumb monsters, and here it's a smart monster who does what is it's main offensive tactics anyway. i just did it like this with wroth's fight. as this is core, i believe this to be an oversight or reluctance to play monsters according to their own tactics, not the summoners tactics. please note that we play it at tabletops exactly that way - the summoner plays the monsters - even if he does not know them languages (but probably, most of our tabletop summoners did in fact know them.) hirumajoe's point is valid though. so, depending on where the elemental was, it might not succeed in taking the opponent above 50ft. another question concerning this: do the epic wizards ready on LoS? :)
McJarvis 11-05-07, 01:48 PM	another question concerning this: do the epic wizards ready on LoS? :) I'm pretty sure they have a custom spell that alters reality to make you spend 500 turns evading your opponent, thus being blasted to death by a delay penalty. tm
Macbrea 11-05-07, 02:25 PM	As our characters go up on levels it will be very easy to cause instant wins. The arenas have rules that can quickly decide any match. Teleportation go 55ft in the city map is instant death. Though, oddly teleportation to 100ft outside the arena but below the 50ft mark isn't. The 50ft mark in the city map should be counted as outside of the arena. If you want to exceed that height. It should count as 1 of your rounds outsdie fo the arena. At 10 rounds you loose. Same thing as if you were sitting in limbo instead.
Rauul 11-05-07, 02:28 PM	regrdless of the fact - you simply can't ignore the fact we have never required specific knowledge of language from summoners before and doing so now, in mid fight, when this exact tactics are my MIAN tacitcs, after tactics have been shown for a few days (and reviewed by MWB btw), is simply unfair. it's a commonly missed thing... Almost as common as say Psicraft needed for Powerstones.. Almost every psiwarrior in coco had to be retrained.... this may actually even the table with druids and their summons Languages are something thats listed on a character sheet... that should be used with Spells that require them
McJarvis 11-05-07, 02:28 PM	As our characters go up on levels it will be very easy to cause instant wins. The arenas have rules that can quickly decide any match. Teleportation go 55ft in the city map is instant death. Though, oddly teleportation to 100ft outside the arena but below the 50ft mark isn't. The 50ft mark in the city map should be counted as outside of the arena. If you want to exceed that height. It should count as 1 of your rounds outsdie fo the arena. At 10 rounds you loose. Same thing as if you were sitting in limbo instead. I'd like to add a rule that says you can't influence the arena from outside the arena if that were to be the case. It'd suck to have to fly after someone into "the void"
McJarvis 11-05-07, 03:53 PM	Hm. I just thought of the *perfect* fix to the metamind. [not that I want this houseruled at CoCo- just figured I'd say it out loud here] Instead of Free Manifesting (Ps): At 1st level, a metamind can manifest any 1st-level power he knows for free (without spending power points) three times per day. At higher levels, a metamind gains the ability to freely manifest additional higher-level powers: three 2nd-level powers per day at 3rd level; one 3rd-level power per day at 5th level; one 4th-level power per day at 7th level; and one 5th-level power per day at 9th level. This benefit applies only to the power point cost of an unaugmented power. Points spent to augment a power and an experience point cost (if any) must be paid as normal. Use this. Free Manifesting (Ps): At 1st level, a metamind can manifest every 1st-level power he knows for free. (without spending power points) The metamind may manifest each 1st level power known for free up to 3 times per day. At higher levels, a metamind gains the ability to freely manifest additional higher-level powers: three/day for 2nd-level powers at 3rd level; 1/day for 3rd-level powers at 5th level; 1/day for 4th-level powers at 7th level; and 1/day for 5th-level powers at 9th level. This benefit applies only to the power point cost of an unaugmented power. Points spent to augment a power and an experience point cost (if any) must be paid as normal. Neat, eh? Just keeping track of it all would be a pain.
waywreth 11-05-07, 03:59 PM	Ignore this, found the post back a few pages in the Taven. Thanks anyway.
mucki 11-06-07, 04:28 AM	Not that I think it needs changing, but this is probably the funniest (and oddest) way to twist DnD rules to do something that was clearly not intended that I have seen in a while :D I'd also like to point out, that if Valen is Enlarged, and is holding a torch or located so that he's not directly on top of it, he is with 10' of a shadow (since the torch is presumably eminating from one of the corner points on the large square and there are shadows within 10' on the opposite side). So Hide in Plain sight kicks in. Which is a small plus for our side. Just don't ask me how that actually is supposed to work physically...
mucki 11-06-07, 04:31 AM	Hm. I just thought of the *perfect* fix to the metamind. [not that I want this houseruled at CoCo- just figured I'd say it out loud here] Tbh, I fail to see the difference. Except that if i were to interpret this in the worst possbile way I could now manifest all 1st level powers at once ?
Callix 11-06-07, 04:44 AM	Tbh, I fail to see the difference. Except that if i were to interpret this in the worst possbile way I could now manifest all 1st level powers at once ? Instead of getting 3/day free 1st level powers, this gives a Psion 15/day free 1st level powers. It's still not all that good; metaminds only really have one use, and that's Font of Power + Temporal Reiteration for free powers forever. Which is both non-core (CPsi) and horribly broken, and probably doesn't work in CoCo anyway (even if the power was legal) with the inter-fight gaps, and needing to be 15th level to pull it off. Once you get Temporal Acceleration and a sleepless race (Warforged do this nicely) you can get an arbitrary time stop by setting it up for one round, then not manifesting Temporal Reiteration one round when you want time to go again.
mucki 11-06-07, 06:27 AM	Isn't that what the original version says anyway (that for any power you know, you can use it 3 times a day) ? Though maybe I just understand it wrong since I am not a native speaker. The fixed version is definitely clearer on the wording on that part in any case :)
Callix 11-06-07, 06:46 AM	Isn't that what the original version says anyway (that for any power you know, you can use it 3 times a day) ? Though maybe I just understand it wrong since I am not a native speaker. The fixed version is definitely clearer on the wording on that part in any case :) The original is ambiguous. It could mean "Three times per day, pick a 1st level power that you know. You may manifest it without paying its pp cost." Alternatively, it could mean exactly the same thing as the "fixed" version. It's very hard to tell, and personally I always assumed it way 3/day total, but I'm wrong often enough.
Macbrea 11-06-07, 09:15 AM	Hmm, I cannot find were they ruled on humanoid armor vs non-humanoid armor. Is a troglodyte considered to wear non-humanoid armor?
McJarvis 11-06-07, 09:21 AM	The original is ambiguous. It could mean "Three times per day, pick a 1st level power that you know. You may manifest it without paying its pp cost." Alternatively, it could mean exactly the same thing as the "fixed" version. It's very hard to tell, and personally I always assumed it way 3/day total, but I'm wrong often enough. The original version seems to imply my fix in the 1st level powers- but fails to make that association with the higher level powers. My fix is aimed at making the PP payout larger than a normal psion would get anyway. So the payout turns into: Free manifesting: 5 1st level powers x 1 pp cost x 3/day= 15 pp 4 2nd level powers x 3 pp cost x 3/day= 36 pp 4 3rd level powers x 5 pp cost x 1/day= 20 pp 4 4th level powers x 7 pp cost x 1/day= 28 pp 4 5th level powers x 9 pp cost x 1/day= 36 pp Psicrystal: 11 pp Font of power: This one is tricky. I'll just assume 15pp once per round the entire time & ignore possible quicken stuff. I think this is fair since I'm operating on the idea that the Metamind will get 10 useful rounds out of the ability- which isn't necessarily true. 15*10= 150pp Power points lost: 343 level 20 psion - 195 level 15 psion = 148 pp PP from int will add about 20-50 onto that, depending on what we're doing. BEFORE you were in the hole PP wise until the very end of the class[and even then- only broke even/surpassed if you resorted to things like manifesting powers as a free/move/standard action]. Now with my "fix" you really have substantially more PP [~1.5 * as much]. Note that in the end "all" I added was (135 new - 33 old) 102 extra pp of manifesting- even though it's restricted by level of power allowed. In all reality, though- I agree that it just means 3/day one power manifested per free. [not 3/day per power known] This is merely a thought experiment. edit- I don't suppose temporal acceleration prevents the metamind 10-round limit from being used up? hmm...
TelinArtho 11-06-07, 10:08 AM	Hmm, I cannot find were they ruled on humanoid armor vs non-humanoid armor. Is a troglodyte considered to wear non-humanoid armor? Here in the council. And to answer your question - yes a troglodyte needs special armor because of its tail.
Hirumajoe 11-06-07, 10:18 AM	Here in the council. And to answer your question - yes a troglodyte needs special armor because of its tail. Troglodytes have tails? Bleh, thats not exactly listed in the SRD. That would mean when you cast alter self and turn into a trog, you lose the armor you were wearing (say a magic domain cleric)?
TelinArtho 11-06-07, 10:24 AM	Troglodytes have tails? Bleh, thats not exactly listed in the SRD. That would mean when you cast alter self and turn into a trog, you lose the armor you were wearing (say a magic domain cleric)? Am I supposed to feel pity for this? I don't.
McJarvis 11-06-07, 10:26 AM	Am I supposed to feel pity for this? I don't. Hah- I think I was running TIM wrong then. Glad I changed my gish type....
Hirumajoe 11-06-07, 10:30 AM	Am I supposed to feel pity for this? I don't. Well it may mean I need to completely redo a fight in the next few hours... Nevermind, MWB rolled so bad a +6 armor difference doesn't actually let him hit once... Is anybody sure that dice roller is working right? :D Feel some pity for the pitlord... :) Edit: So the next best option for armor wearing humanoid clerics is bugbear (+3 Natural armor). Lizardfolk presumably also have tails. I'd suggest magic domain clerics hit the training hall.
Macbrea 11-06-07, 10:32 AM	Cool, I was just trying to figure out exactly what the final ruling was. I was thinking of reworking Varsh and spending the extra 5 credits to actually have him start out 1 level higher. And yes, Troglodytes have tales in DnD. Here is the picture from the MM. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG246b.jpg
Hirumajoe 11-06-07, 12:41 PM	So Erithmu's plea to Templer10 to clean up his sheets started me thinking about the mess that is Valen Sky's sheet. I'm thinking I can remove the conditional modifiers section, since I seem to indicate that mostly with blue tags. Although I'm wondering if I would have been better off not ever buying the "adventuring junk". I originally outfitted him like I would an actual table top character, and thus included all the useful little items, but unless Valen starts doing some serious questing, won't ever come into play. (Then again, I did pull the two torches and flint and steel out of my adventuring bag when the new Lightning rules were introduced... And I've been swearing at myself for not having rope on Valen this fight...) Should I move all the "adventuring" junk to the bottom of the sheet so that pitlords can cut it off, along with my background? Also, should I be changing the position of the pitlords cut here line or my past expenditures above it? Thanks for any house cleaning suggestions. :)
TelinArtho 11-06-07, 12:59 PM	Overall, I'm not sure that you really need to do much. Right now your sheet is around 30k characters (with a little over 3k in "Background" and 8k total marked to be removed by the pitlord). In comparison, Kraegin is sitting around 22k characters for his entire sheet (including his background). A simple way to reduce the characters on your sheet is to use a smaller stat block for your psicrystal. At 3600 characters, it is bulky and could be pared down to a more reasonable size. I prefer to use a stat block for allies like this: Shakti the Weasel, Tiny Animal HD 4; hp 9; init +2; speed 20ft, climb 20ft; AC 16 (+2 sz, +2 dex, +2 nat), touch 14, flat-footed 12; BAB +1 Bite +5 melee (1d3-4); Saves +2/+4/+4; S 3 (-4) D 15 (+2) C 10 I 7 (-2) W 14 (+2) Ch 4 (-3); Skills: Balance +12, Climb +10, Escape Artist +4, Hide +11, Listen +2, Move Silently +8, Spot +3; Feats: Agile, Weapon FinesseB; Specials: Attach (automatic if bite succeeds - bite damage each round), Low-light vision, Scent, Improved Evasion, Share Spells, Empathic Link, Deliver Touch Spells Obviously, for allies that are more intensive (basically anything that has class levels), I would probably still use a larger stat block. Again - YMMV. In terms of clarity, you could certainly remove either the blue tagged info or the conditional modifier section (I would recommend keeping the former, but up to you). As for the "adventuring junk" - I outfitted Sir Valkin for a grand total of 57gp and 9sp. I don't regret doing it even though it hasn't really come up for him (he was the first character I put on campaign - but the campaign never really got going). For stuff to trim off of a sheet, as a pitlord, I try to only remove two things or less and only trim at all if I am above the character count for a post: 1. Character background. 2. Previously used expendables. I might remove extra line breaks (for instance 3 down to 1), for a small amount of savings, but the above two items are usually enough.
Macbrea 11-06-07, 01:11 PM	Hmm, I guess I just use alot less characters. Izumi = 14446 Relanex = 12793 I guess it comes down to what is considered unnessessary on a sheet.
Salrantol 11-06-07, 02:52 PM	So the next best option for armor wearing humanoid clerics is bugbear (+3 Natural armor). Lizardfolk presumably also have tails. I'd suggest magic domain clerics hit the training hall.I would presume that this wouldn't affect breastplates, which specifically do not protect the lower portions of the body, and thus, would not need to be specially crafted to accomodate a tail.
TelinArtho 11-06-07, 03:04 PM	I would presume that this wouldn't affect breastplates, which specifically do not protect the lower portions of the body, and thus, would not need to be specially crafted to accomodate a tail. Well - armor is either non-humanoid or humanoid according to the definition. This assumption is currently incorrect.
McJarvis 11-06-07, 03:07 PM	Well - armor is either non-humanoid or humanoid according to the definition. This assumption is currently incorrect. But trog's are humanoids I thought? I'm not sure how you can take into account that trog's have a tail[not in rules- only in a picture], but not take into account that some armor specifically doesn't cover the tail-area of the body. [not in rules- only in pictures]
TelinArtho 11-06-07, 03:11 PM	Let me rephrase then. Armor is either humanoid-like or non-humanoid-like. This question was asked (by me) and answered to be determined as 1 head, 2 arms, 2 legs. A tail qualifies something as non-humanoid-like. So troglodytes and lizardfolk, while humanoid type, cannot wear humanoid-like armor.
McJarvis 11-06-07, 03:12 PM	Let me rephrase then. Armor is either humanoid-like or non-humanoid-like. This question was asked (by me) and answered to be determined as 1 head, 2 arms, 2 legs. A tail qualifies something as non-humanoid-like. So troglodytes and lizardfolk, while humanoid type, cannot wear humanoid-like armor. I don't understand- is this a houserule then? The rules for armor only mention armor for non-humanoids, not non-humanoid "like" creatures. So letter of law- Outsiders even need special armor. [even if they are "humanoid like" like Tieflings] edit-> I'm really just trying to understand- not argue [I don't have any vested interests- Thorell uses Mage armor, so this won't affect him]. Is the a RotG article that clarified this?
TelinArtho 11-06-07, 03:18 PM	I actually was pressing for a ruling much like what you just said McJarvis - but I was shot down by everyone. So - I took the issue to the Council and it got hammered out (and the result of that decision is: 1 head, 2 arms, 2 legs). Personally, I wanted the type designation so that I could move on and not have to define what has all the appropriate limbs and such... but no one agreed with me.
McJarvis 11-06-07, 03:20 PM	I actually was pressing for a ruling much like what you just said McJarvis - but I was shot down by everyone. So - I took the issue to the Council and it got hammered out (and the result of that decision is: 1 head, 2 arms, 2 legs). Personally, I wanted the type designation so that I could move on and not have to define what has all the appropriate limbs and such... but no one agreed with me. I think this is similar to those rules for wingspan that got house-ruled. We could spend years trying to hammer out rules that "make sense"- but really I think they were left simple for a reason. We should follow RAW unless it is unclear or unfair. This is neither. edit- It's probably worthy of note that the council ruling on references "humanoid shaped equipment". Armor does not apply to this, since there is armor which humanoids wear and armor which nonhumanoids wear. There's no such thing as "humanoid shaped" when it comes to armor. When it comes to things like vests and whatnot, that ruling could come into play. Sure, there are some wonky things[like Elans can't wear humanoid armor]- but I've fine with that.
TelinArtho 11-06-07, 03:35 PM	Like I said - I am in agreement with you McJ. The problem is - I don't think I got a single person in agreement with me on the voting when the voting occured (which was not all that long ago...). As to the fact that it says "humanoid shaped equipment" the issue was about armor in particular. If you look at the post that is referenced in the council and look at the posts preceding it - you will find that the armor was the only question at hand.
McJarvis 11-06-07, 03:39 PM	Like I said - I am in agreement with you McJ. The problem is - I don't think I got a single person in agreement with me on the voting when the voting occured (which was not all that long ago...). As to the fact that it says "humanoid shaped equipment" the issue was about armor in particular. If you look at the post that is referenced in the council and look at the posts preceding it - you will find that the armor was the only question at hand. That actually brings up something that has been bothering me. If when a resolution is made someone could just make a summary of the resolution & the elders who voted in a dedicated post, that'd be super. Right now everything that's linked in the council decision may-or-may-not reference the discussion at hand. Also note- the post that is referenced in that discussion lists you, telin, as agreeing with the decision. (?) edit-> Actually- reading all that discussion, it looks like only Vath and Sauro actually voted in Elder capacity. MWB doesn't count- where were the other two elders?
Rauul 11-06-07, 03:41 PM	Sure, there are some wonky things[like Elans can't wear humanoid armor]- but I've fine with that. umm why can't they wear humanoid armor.. they have 1 head, 2 arms 2 legs?
McJarvis 11-06-07, 03:48 PM	umm why can't they wear humanoid armor.. they have 1 head, 2 arms 2 legs? Because they are not humanoids. It really should be simple as that. For whatever reason armor was classified as related to a specific type of creature- not a specific shape of creature. Furthermore- humanoid is not code-talk for "Human Shaped". There are many non-humanoids who are "human shaped", and there are many humanoids who are definately not "human shaped". Given its a fantasy game we don't need a reason why this works the way it does. It just does.
McJarvis 11-06-07, 04:02 PM	Wow- how did this sneak past? MWB even agreed that the houserule- while something he would do in a home game- isn't something that belongs in CoCo. (He used the same reasoning I did a few posts ago: If isn't broken & isn't ambiguous) So we have a "council decision" that was only voted for by 2 elders, 2 elders abstained, 1 was against, and the GM didn't approve of. Geez...
TelinArtho 11-06-07, 04:08 PM	Well - I did agree with that interpretation. What I wasn't in agreement was some of the other proposals that were offered: wings, tails, extra limbs, etc did not need "non-humanoid armor." Anyway - there was a discussion previous to the council entry. Here's the sum up I did before I brought the conversation to the Council. @mcJ - the reference you are pointing to (of MWB) is pointing to Vath's comment that he wanted to remove the extra cost of non-humanoid armor.
McJarvis 11-06-07, 04:17 PM	If you even wanted to create a terminology called "Humanoid-shaped" it would simply be "Something shaped like a humanoid". If you can find a humanoid with a tail, then something shaped like that is "humanoid shaped". But that's only if you wanted to. The rules don't reference anything called "Humanoid Shaped" [excepting some psionic references- but those rules are far from authoritative]. I call shenanigans on the elders! I'll add this to my long list of useless rulings.... :rolleyes:
Rauul 11-06-07, 04:23 PM	If you even wanted to create a terminology called "Humanoid-shaped" it would simply be "Something shaped like a humanoid". If you can find a humanoid with a tail, then something shaped like that is "humanoid shaped". But that's only if you wanted to. The rules don't reference anything called "Humanoid Shaped" [excepting some psionic references- but those rules are far from authoritative]. I call shenanigans on the elders! I'll add this to my long list of useless rulings.... :rolleyes: acually read under humanoid traits
McJarvis 11-06-07, 04:26 PM	acually read under humanoid traits Yeah- it says usually. As in not always. If it WAS always- then you'd be ruling that all humanoids don't have tails/wings/etc. On a "reality" side of things - also note that armor doesn't only fit because of shape. It has to do with range of motion as well- which goes into general gait, flexibility, and what areas of the body people need/want more cushioning in. I'd imagine aberrations[like an elan] would be very different in this regard- and Undead or Outsiders most certainly would. But that is immaterial- because the truth of the matter is the rules are crystal clear in this regard. No one is arguing that the rules are not clear- they are trying to "fix" the rules to better fit their vision of reality. That is simply not how to properly read the rules- since it is a technique that will result in hundreds of practically meaningless house rules.
Rauul 11-06-07, 04:51 PM	Yeah- it says usually. As in not always. If it WAS always- then you'd be ruling that all humanoids don't have tails/wings/etc. Ok Mr Lawyer... fighting over Minor WORDS.. So basicly your saying the Gith races, Half-giant, All psionic races except Duergar aren't humanoid... Hmm gonna have to prison Alot again....
McJarvis 11-06-07, 05:04 PM	It's not really a terrible thing. Double cost on armor isn't too huge.
Hirumajoe 11-06-07, 05:12 PM	Well, humanoid vs non-humanoid armor doesn't just affect armor cost though. It affects how armor interacts with spells and special abilities. Do you really want Lycanthropes keeping their armor in all their forms (including animal) since they're always humanoid, the type, as opposed to humanoid shaped?
TelinArtho 11-06-07, 05:42 PM	What can be done about races that have an advancement "by character class" who multiclass? What can I assume are the favored classes by these races? The simple question has to do with my Half-Dragon Sahuagin - which I believe could easily have Fighter, Ranger, Barbarian, and perhaps Cleric or Wizard as well... Of course this extends to any race that we allow as a race that doesn't have character classes listed (so I'd rather resolve it for all races than just for Sahuagin - which, while it would resolve my personal question, does nothing to stop the question from coming up again and again...)
MindWandererB 11-06-07, 05:48 PM	What can be done about races that have an advancement "by character class" who multiclass? What can I assume are the favored classes by these races? The simple question has to do with my Half-Dragon Sahuagin - which I believe could easily have Fighter, Ranger, Barbarian, and perhaps Cleric or Wizard as well... Of course this extends to any race that we allow as a race that doesn't have character classes listed (so I'd rather resolve it for all races than just for Sahuagin - which, while it would resolve my personal question, does nothing to stop the question from coming up again and again...) If a creature has no favored class listed, it has no favored class (or rather, its monster HD is its only favored class).
McJarvis 11-06-07, 05:51 PM	Well, humanoid vs non-humanoid armor doesn't just affect armor cost though. It affects how armor interacts with spells and special abilities. Do you really want Lycanthropes keeping their armor in all their forms (including animal) since they're always humanoid, the type, as opposed to humanoid shaped? Insofar that they don't break other rules- I see no problems with this. It certainly doesn't strike me as "broken". [since touch AC's are the important things to boost, IMO], and the armor already magically alters itself to the new size of your form. Or to put it another way: if you're in animal form but you're not enough of an animal for a ranger to get favored enemy boni off of you, then what kind of animal are you exactly? o_O
TelinArtho 11-06-07, 05:54 PM	Easy enough I suppose. Does mean I need to rethink a few of Aquin's later levels (ECL15+), but nothing that will break the character at least...
McJarvis 11-06-07, 05:56 PM	Easy enough I suppose. Does mean I need to rethink a few of Aquin's later levels (ECL15+), but nothing that will break the character at least... It's not like multiclassing penalties are all that hard to rough it through in CoCo.
TelinArtho 11-06-07, 06:12 PM	Well - I come from a mentality that doesn't really support multiclassing anyway... in general I try to keep multiclassing either on par (like Daeren - where he alternated Barbarian and Wizard levels) or dips in levels that are favored - so just one other class usually. I suppose I could keep the build as is (Sahuagin Half-Dragon 6 racial, 4 fighter, 1 barbarian, 3 h-d paragon), but it isn't hard to incorporate some other features: 6 racial, 2 fighter, 3 barbarian, 3 h-d paragon. 1 less feat, but gains the useful uncanny dodge to work with. Of course, I could contradict what I have already said a little more and do another variant I was thinking of: 6 racial, 2 fighter, 2 barbarian, 1 rogue... Anyway - all of this is speculation on whether I actually continue the character for any decent amount of time.
Taureus_Drakken 11-06-07, 07:14 PM	So back to the armor question. If a human cleric with the Magic domain wants to be able to utilize scrolls of AS (trog), said cleric has to pay double for his armor? Just need to know for the future...Otherwise saving up for mithral breastplate will take longer than I had first planned on. ¬Taureus¬
McJarvis 11-06-07, 08:22 PM	So back to the armor question. If a human cleric with the Magic domain wants to be able to utilize scrolls of AS (trog), said cleric has to pay double for his armor? Just need to know for the future...Otherwise saving up for mithral breastplate will take longer than I had first planned on. ¬Taureus¬ No- he actually can't use them. Humanoid armor and non humanoid armor are completely different. In order to use armor he'd have to take off his humanoid stuff, turn into a trog, then put on a non-humanoid one.
Vathelokai 11-06-07, 08:57 PM	To clarify the armor issue a bit If I remember correctly; the vote was either around the time NiQil and Zevox were not around much, or durring the in between phase with only 3 Elders. Thus the only 3 votes. As it stands, I'm okay with revisiting it, though I believe that the rule is so bizzare as to require a house rule. My opinion was wrapped around 2 thought experiments... 1) A human warrior is turned into an elan. Also works with 'a human warrior is turned into a zombie', or 'a human warrior becomes fiendish', etc. Would the warrior need new armor? 2) A warrior has 4 arms, or 2 wings, or no legs, although they are still humanoid in type. Can they pick up 'humanoid' armor they found in a dungeon and wear it? As for the argument about armor being as much defined by range of movement and gait, that would imply that every race needs it's own armor (which is how I do it at home). However rational that is, it doesn't fix the problem of pricing 'non-humanoid' armor.
McJarvis 11-06-07, 09:14 PM	As for the argument about armor being as much defined by range of movement and gait, that would imply that every race needs it's own armor (which is how I do it at home). However rational that is, it doesn't fix the problem of pricing 'non-humanoid' armor. I guess I just don't see why we have a reluctance to follow RAW on this. First of all- twice the cost isn't a huge deal. Second of all- no matter what you decide you'll be hurting somebody else- unless you just decide that all armor costs the same.
Eamane 11-06-07, 09:47 PM	I guess I just don't see why we have a reluctance to follow RAW on this. First of all- twice the cost isn't a huge deal. Second of all- no matter what you decide you'll be hurting somebody else- unless you just decide that all armor costs the same. Sounds like a solution to me. I suggested something along these lines the last time it came up; but I merely suggested that all armor for intelligent creatures should cost the same. I.E: A centaur goes to a centaur armorer and buys his armor for him. Since the centaur armorer is used to making armor for centaurs, not humans, it costs the same as a human buying from a human would; except for the fact that centaurs are large and thus require more materials. This increase the price accordingly. Expanding to everything aint bad either. Of course, there is our current 'don't ask, don't tell' unofficial policy, where we only make really weird and out there things pay double for their armor, instead of say... Elans, Zombies and Duergar. Also, double base price is a big deal for anyone that wants to wear more than light armor. Most characters stop at Mithril chainshirt and never need new armor again, but a real knock-down fighter type dwarf will be going for mithril or adamantine full plate. Doubling that is yes, expensive. Plus, logically speaking, there is the whole 'why does armor that doesn't protect the area that I have different from a human cost more/suddenly no longer fit?' line of reasoning, which while I completely support, is probably too much house ruling. Cross your fingers and hope 4E fixes it (doubtful).
Taureus_Drakken 11-06-07, 10:34 PM	No- he actually can't use them. Humanoid armor and non humanoid armor are completely different. In order to use armor he'd have to take off his humanoid stuff, turn into a trog, then put on a non-humanoid one. Don't take this as argument (my question is answered, and I can move on...Mage Armor, anyone?), but how does having a tail influence a suit of breastplate armor or a chain shirt? I know it's more to level the playing field for everyone, but in my opinion (as little as it matters here) there is nothing different between a human and a troglodyte for the purpose of those armors that don't encase the full-body. ¬Taureus¬
McJarvis 11-06-07, 10:42 PM	Don't take this as argument (my question is answered, and I can move on...Mage Armor, anyone?), but how does having a tail influence a suit of breastplate armor or a chain shirt? I know it's more to level the playing field for everyone, but in my opinion (as little as it matters here) there is nothing different between a human and a troglodyte for the purpose of those armors that don't encase the full-body. ¬Taureus¬ Welcome to the wonderful world of CoCo :) Please, enjoy your visit. But seriously- I think this decision will be reconsidered. Only two elders originally voted on it, and I think it was against the grain of how they normally rule. Take the efficient quiver, for instance- they ruled that it specifically could only hold what it said it could hold. I think that's the correct kind of ruling, and something along those lines would do well here. It's too easy to try and translate the rules into house rules that allow more things[like storing things that are "arrow-sized"]. We need to stick as closely to the RAW as possible- unless forced to stray from it.
hogarth 11-06-07, 11:59 PM	I guess I just don't see why we have a reluctance to follow RAW on this. First of all- twice the cost isn't a huge deal. Second of all- no matter what you decide you'll be hurting somebody else- unless you just decide that all armor costs the same. You see the rules as perfectly clear, but (like it or not) "humanoid" can have two possible meanings -- "having human form" (i.e. the dictionary definition) or "having a specific D&D racial type". For instance: Giant Type A giant is a humanoid-shaped creature of great strength, usually of at least Large size. That sentence doesn't make me scratch my head and wonder if a giant is shaped like a troglodyte or a bugbear -- it seems obvious to me what is meant. I expressed a strong opinion at the time, but I don't remember exactly what it was. I do remember scoffing at the idea that becoming an elan makes your pants fit funny. :) Personally, I fall on the side of "use common sense" -- elans are close enough to human, but animal-form lycanthropes are not. Crazy, I know.
Erithmu 11-07-07, 12:15 AM	To all those who care ... Taking a week off for vacation. I'll be out of inet till about the 13th, but I suspect I will not have the mental or physical ability to respond to anything pressing. Forgive me if I hold up any Council/Courtroom stuff.
TelinArtho 11-07-07, 12:46 AM	And on your return? Back to Dragons! MWAHAHAHA
MindWandererB 11-07-07, 02:04 AM	All right, so our options are: Armor price is based strictly on type. Planetouched, elans, and half-giants are screwed, but lizardfolk and troglodytes benefit. I'm going to wave my GM stick over this one--the idea that aasimar can't wear human-shaped armor is absurd. Armor price is based on 2 arms, 2 legs, 1 head, no wings. This is the current policy, and does disadvantage creatures with tails and/or wings, and those that turn into them. And mutant sahuagin. Armor price is single-priced for everyone. Blatantly against RAW, but has some logic in a city with such a mixed population as Gladius. I'm still in favor of option 2. Option 3 doesn't make that much sense when you consider that horse barding suffers from the penalty, yet human(oid) armorers make said barding. So the price inflation is based on more than just availability. Option 2 also sets some shapechanging policies more clearly; note that Alter Self doesn't change the size or shape of equipment at all, and it would be silly if normal armor could accomodate a tail. (In fact--a suit of full plate, since it has to be individually tailored, should always disappear in this case.) Note that magic armor, unlike magic jewelry and clothes, is not always assumed to fit anybody.
Hirumajoe 11-07-07, 02:40 AM	All right, so our options are: Armor price is based strictly on type. Planetouched, elans, and half-giants are screwed, but lizardfolk and troglodytes benefit. I'm going to wave my GM stick over this one--the idea that aasimar can't wear human-shaped armor is absurd. Armor price is based on 2 arms, 2 legs, 1 head, no wings. This is the current policy, and does disadvantage creatures with tails and/or wings, and those that turn into them. And mutant sahuagin. Armor price is single-priced for everyone. Blatantly against RAW, but has some logic in a city with such a mixed population as Gladius. I'm still in favor of option 2. Option 3 doesn't make that much sense when you consider that horse barding suffers from the penalty, yet human(oid) armorers make said barding. So the price inflation is based on more than just availability. Option 2 also sets some shapechanging policies more clearly; note that Alter Self doesn't change the size or shape of equipment at all, and it would be silly if normal armor could accomodate a tail. (In fact--a suit of full plate, since it has to be individually tailored, should always disappear in this case.) Note that magic armor, unlike magic jewelry and clothes, is not always assumed to fit anybody. I'd like to point out option 3 doesn't seem to address the shapeshifting issues (or if it does, it says any armor fits anyone - which also doesn't make much sense). I lean towards option 2. Its well defined and it makes at least some sense. It also agrees somewhat with the rules of the game All about Polymorphing and Polymorphing revisited (in that fact that humanoid like shape includes things like Giants and Monstrous Humanoids). Not that the rules of the game articles are the be and all of rules, but at least we're not the only ones thinking this way.
Hirumajoe 11-07-07, 03:13 AM	As for the "adventuring junk" - I outfitted Sir Valkin for a grand total of 57gp and 9sp. I don't regret doing it even though it hasn't really come up for him (he was the first character I put on campaign - but the campaign never really got going). So I took your suggestions and fixed up Valen a little (trimmed Quartz down quite a bit). I've also decided to start actually carrying my adventuring gear again (since I've got 18 strength now anyways). After this week's fight, I'm realizing it could actually make a difference. Like the 50' of silk rope (For tying torches off to things) or the spare lantern and 10 pints of oil. Although a Handy Haversack is definitely planned for Valen's next shopping trip. At least then I have a semi-reasonable magical explanation for how he carry so much junk and remain stealthy. And maybe add some additional rope to make it hard to remove with Telekinesis? Hmm...
Rauul 11-07-07, 05:59 AM	Question... Can a Person Quest/Miniquest to gain a Celestial or Fiendish Animal.. If they are Planetouched or ExtraPlanar (meaning they would have the knowledge of such animals...) Example.. Celestial Dog, or Fiendish Dog
Rauul 11-07-07, 07:09 AM	MwB, i think we need some guidelines on making Agents for Playtesting.. I used Monsters of CR 1 or less... But yes We could use a little guidelines on Agents.. Since no one has made any.. I think they are afraid to try something new... :evillaugh
Salrantol 11-07-07, 07:12 AM	All right, so our options are: *Armor price is based on 2 arms, 2 legs, 1 head, no wings. This is the current policy, and does disadvantage creatures with tails and/or wings, and those that turn into them. And mutant sahuagin.I would like to suggest a modification to this to allow for a tail, simply by virtue of the number of Humanoid creatures with tails. I went through the SRD's humanoids and got:Bugbear Dwarf Elf Gnome Goblin Halfling Locathah OrcGnoll Kobold Lizardfolk Merfolk TroglodyteWith 38% of SRD Humanoids having tails, it seems like it's silly to say that having a tail makes one non-humanoid.
Malither76 11-07-07, 07:36 AM	quick question, flest to stone is a win in the arena right, pretty much save or die? or do you have to destroy the statue after the spell?
Rauul 11-07-07, 07:37 AM	Gnoll Kobold Lizardfolk Merfolk TroglodyteWith 38% of SRD Humanoids having tails, it seems like it's silly to say that having a tail makes one non-humanoid. of the Tails... 3 are reptiles, 1 does have the upper torso of a elf.. but the fins of a fish... and the gnoll is Dog headed All of them very much Non-humanoid in shape and Appearance.. (they are humanoid because they walk on 2 legs and are intelligent) Even in the Monster Descriptions... Using Alter Self to go into any of the forms.. gives the caster several benefits.. as Most of the Tail races have Darkvision, and Natural Armor, Swim speeds, and the ability to still cast spells in that form... As Arcane casters for the most part don't wear Armor (except bards)..
lonewolf 11-07-07, 07:40 AM	quick question, flest to stone is a win in the arena right, pretty much save or die? or do you have to destroy the statue after the spell? unless the PC has an Ally who can reverse the spell, it is a win.
McJarvis 11-07-07, 08:03 AM	I'm going to wave my GM stick over this one. I don't understand why you're taking that out now. This is hardly a matter of game balance. And no one complained when we made that ruling on the efficient quiver- despite common sense saying that it might be used to hold things that are "arrow sized" instead of just arrows and bolts. Another possible idea would be to say "humanoid pricing" can apply to all creatures with a LA listing(non cohort only) & "non humanoids" are the ones who don't have an LA listing. Yet another option is to term "humanoid shaped" as "something that is shaped like an existing humanoid" [anything using alternate form not counted- since that's an ability that lets a humanoid turn into something else] But again, this gets away from RAW- which despite some objections IS clear. The only thing not supporting it is a psionic power that references "humanoid physiology" and some flavor text describing things as "humanoid" - but since when does flavor text dictate policy in this fashion? If anything- it makes more options available- not restrict existing rules. Imagine if we ruled that only Centaurs qualified for mounted combat feats just because of a reference to "Centaur-like creatures qualifying for them" And on another note- I don't know why you'd wave a DM stick over the tiefling issue but not over troglodytes not getting to wear normal breastplate. Something smells fishy :P. edit- Perhaps to make things clear we should make a list. We like lists, right? Things RAW defines as humanoids 1) Humanoids. Things that I would house-rule as capable of wearing humanoid armor in addition to RAW if this were a home-game. Elans [resemble humans] Tieflings [resemble lizardfolk in form] Aasamirs [resemble humans] Undead(Zombies, Skeletons, Vampires, Liches, etc) who are "shaped" like the above things. [resemble original creature] Dromites Probably most Monstrous Humanoids. Giants. Titans. hell- anything that resembles any given humanoid. Things I would restrict that are actually allowed in RAW if this were a home-game 1) Any humanoid using the "alternate shape" ability to be something normally NOT humanoid. Reasons why CoCo needs such house rules. 1) To correct a minor inconvenience to a minority of PC races. 2) Complex rules that aren't based on game mechanics are fun! 3) Wouldn't want CoCo Elder decisions to be made for the same reasons all the time...that'd be boring 4) Lycans are wildly out of control- even moreso than straight ticket casters. We wouldn't want to give them an unfair advantage of an extra +4 to normal & flat footed AC when they're in animal form.
TelinArtho 11-07-07, 08:48 AM	@Rauul - you cannot gain templated creatures as allies (except in the form of leadership allies anyway)
Macbrea 11-07-07, 09:12 AM	And on another note- I don't know why you'd wave a DM stick over the tiefling issue but not over troglodytes not getting to wear normal breastplate. Something smells fishy :P. Oddly, the picture of the tiefling in the mm has a tail. ouch..
McJarvis 11-07-07, 10:37 AM	In re-reading my post, I think I was a bit harsh on MWB. Sorry, man :(
TelinArtho 11-07-07, 11:37 AM	@macbrea - where did you come up with the price for the adamantine shield? Adamantium doesn't have a cost listed for shields in the SRD, so I'm just curious.
Rauul 11-07-07, 11:39 AM	@macbrea - where did you come up with the price for the adamantine shield? Adamantium doesn't have a cost listed for shields in the SRD, so I'm just curious. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialMaterials.htm#adamantine
TelinArtho 11-07-07, 11:42 AM	Okay - but it doesn't appear in the official SRD, hence my question. Is this something that is listed in the DMG/PHB but just didn't make the cut for the standard SRD?
Rauul 11-07-07, 11:46 AM	New Gladiator... Platon DeathSong (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14271383&postcount=1262) hoping my Pm got sent so he can be in today...
hogarth 11-07-07, 11:50 AM	Okay - but it doesn't appear in the official SRD, hence my question. Is this something that is listed in the DMG/PHB but just didn't make the cut for the standard SRD? Adamantine shield prices are from the FAQ, I think. Either that or from the errata, but I'm pretty sure it's the FAQ.
TelinArtho 11-07-07, 11:50 AM	Nice damage on the scythe :P Other than that - you might want to rethink Divine Favor at CL3 - the duration is 1 minute - not 1 minute per level.
TelinArtho 11-07-07, 11:53 AM	Adamantine shield prices are from the FAQ, I think. Either that or from the errata, but I'm pretty sure it's the FAQ. I don't see it in the errata. I did find this in the FAQ: An adamantine shield costs an extra 5000gp (the same as the extra cost for adamantine light armor)
Rauul 11-07-07, 11:58 AM	Nice damage on the scythe :P Other than that - you might want to rethink Divine Favor at CL3 - the duration is 1 minute - not 1 minute per level. CL 3 = +1 luck bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls for every three caster levels you have (at least +1, maximum +3) for that 1 minute (so +2 to attack and damage) Oh and fixed the Damage :D
lonewolf 11-07-07, 12:00 PM	CL 3 = +1 luck bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls for every three caster levels you have (at least +1, maximum +3) for that 1 minute (so +2 to attack and damage) Oh and fixed the Damage :D not really. you need CL6 to get a +2 bonus.
hogarth 11-07-07, 12:02 PM	I don't see it in the errata. I did find this in the FAQ: Ah...found it. It was a "stealth errata" included in the Special Edition DMG (along with fixed prices for Necklace of Prayer Beads, Staff of Fire, etc.). Here is a link to a discussion of it on the d20srd forums. http://www.penpaperpixel.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=501&p=1932&hilit=adamantine+shield#p1932
Rauul 11-07-07, 12:06 PM	not really. you need CL6 to get a +2 bonus. i don't get you... Every 3 levels is 3,6,9,12 ect.. level 1=+1 (min) level 3=+2 level 6=+3 (max)
lonewolf 11-07-07, 12:10 PM	its not "1 + level/3" but "level/3 & round up to 1 if its lower than 1"
TelinArtho 11-07-07, 12:10 PM	Understandably I'm a little hesitant to use errata that are not in the official errata. For the shield - I suppose it is fine (I'm surprised they made shields cost less than weapons... hence why I went looking), but I'd feel better about using what is actually in the official SRD, associated Errata and FAQ.
TelinArtho 11-07-07, 12:11 PM	lonewolf has it correct Rauul.
lonewolf 11-07-07, 12:16 PM	This is post 3333. :devil: Time for a new Tavern?
Rauul 11-07-07, 12:23 PM	lonewolf has it correct Rauul. So your telling me that a level 1 spell that is +1 per 3 levels goes 6 levels before getting a +1?? Color me confused... level 1 +1 level 6 +2 level 9 +3 ?? you all need to learn math..but ok changed it and saved a few buxs... Edit=> Now i can understand this math.. levels 1-3=+1 levels 4-6=+2 levels 7-9=+3 But i really can't understand your math blah it's just a worthless spell... can get better with psionics... (Precognition, Offensive and Prescience, Offensive) 5 pps = +2 to hit + 2 dmg.. So 4th level and 5 pps... to equal 6th level cleric... (or a 3rd level wilder)
Hirumajoe 11-07-07, 12:38 PM	Now i can understand this math.. levels 1-3=+1 levels 4-6=+2 levels 7-9=+3 But i really can't understand your math What you've written is level divided by 3, round up. But this is D&D, so you have to round down. So ignoring the minimum statement you'd get 1-2=+0 3-5 =+1 6-8 = +2 9-11 = +3 That make sense? Then you consider the minimum statement, which changes all the values in that chart that are less than +1 to +1, so now you get: 1-2=+1 3-5=+1 6-8=+2 9-11=+3 Basically you're combining two functions and taking the greater of the two, so you get a "bend" in the function where they intersect.
Rauul 11-07-07, 12:47 PM	Then you consider the minimum statement, which changes all the values in that chart that are less than +1 to +1, so now you get: 1-2=+1 3-5=+1 6-8=+2 9-11=+3 Basically you're combining two functions and taking the greater of the two, so you get a "bend" in the function where they intersect. just another Case of psionics being better that Arcane or Divine.... No problem..
McJarvis 11-07-07, 12:50 PM	just another Case of psionics being better that Arcane or Divine.... No problem.. ? I don't understand how this makes psionics better. This spell gives you + to hit AND + to damage- which is essentially the effects of two first level psionic powers combined.
Rauul 11-07-07, 12:53 PM	? I don't understand how this makes psionics better. This spell gives you +1 to hit AND +1 to damage- which is essentially the effects of two first level psionic powers combined. Level 4 psiwarrior Spends 4 pps and gets +2 to hit next round Spends 1 pps and gets +2 to damage these last 4 minutes each level 4 cleric casts a spell that gets a +1 to hit and damage and it lasts 1 minute...
whitebaron 11-07-07, 12:56 PM	and takes only 1 action instead of 2 and in comparison 1 pp to cast it. don't compare augmented powers to standard spells. ;)
McJarvis 11-07-07, 12:59 PM	Level 4 psiwarrior Spends 4 pps and gets +2 to hit next round Spends 1 pps and gets +2 to damage these last 4 minutes each level 4 cleric casts a spell that gets a +1 to hit and damage and it lasts 1 minute... So for 5 pp[the equivilent of a 3rd level power] you get +2 to hit & +2 to damage. At CL 6[one level over what's required for a third level power], a cleric for 1 first level spell[the equivilent of 1 pp] gets +2 to hit and +2 to damage. I don't see why this makes psionics "better", unless you think first level spells are "better" than third level spells.
Rauul 11-07-07, 01:04 PM	So for 5 pp[the equivilent of a 3rd level power] you get +2 to hit & +2 to damage. At CL 6[one level over what's required for a third level power], a cleric for 1 first level spell[the equivilent of 1 pp] gets +2 to hit and +2 to damage. I don't see why this makes psionics "better", unless you think first level spells are "better" than third level spells. umm 4pps is closer to a 2nd level power than 3rd... (acually more like a 2.5 power since it's more than a 2nd but less than a 3rd)
McJarvis 11-07-07, 01:08 PM	umm 4pps is closer to a 2nd level power than 3rd... (acually more like a 2.5 power since it's more than a 2nd but less than a 3rd) Right- but you used 5 pp. [4pp for +2 to hit, 1 pp for +2 to damage.], so you really spent the equivilent of a 3rd level spell.
Rauul 11-07-07, 01:13 PM	Right- but you used 5 pp. [4pp for +2 to hit, 1 pp for +2 to damage.], so you really spent the equivilent of a 3rd level spell. And lasting 4x longer... 4 mins vs 1 minute
McJarvis 11-07-07, 01:23 PM	And lasting 4x longer... 4 mins vs 1 minute Right- but we're comparing a level 3 power to a level 1 spell. The 3rd level power SHOULD be better in some way. And on that note- there's a really great example. Psionc fly is a 4th level spell- fly the spell is a 3rd level spell. Or on fireball type ideas- fireball "auto-upgrades" for you as you level. The psionic version forces you to memorize that fireball as a max level spell slot.
whitebaron 11-07-07, 01:26 PM	as we all know, psionics is better in certain areas, especially in some that are day-to-day business in the arena. there's no need to argue that a level 1 power is way better than a lvl 1 spell - especially after augmenting. but: i can counter your 5 pps with a simply lvl 1 spell - doom. and it has the same duration.
Salrantol 11-07-07, 03:05 PM	of the Tails... All of them very much Non-humanoid in shape and Appearance.. (they are humanoid because they walk on 2 legs and are intelligent)Non-Humanoids who also walk on two legs and are intelligent (and are medium and don't have tails): Half-Giants Elans sane Derros Doppelgangers Grimlocks Green Hags Medusae and that's not even exhaustive, consider fey, outsiders, etc. So clearly the definition of Humanoid means something.
hogarth 11-07-07, 03:08 PM	@TelinArtho: I was browsing through the Denth campaign just now. It looks like you might've forgotten that friendly spells like Cure Critical Wounds are still susceptible to Sdentch's SR unless she takes a standard action to lower it.
TelinArtho 11-07-07, 03:12 PM	I'm aware of it. I had forgotten about it when I rolled it originally and haven't rolled it yet (because I once again forgot about it when I did the update...). Irony of ironies... Back to my campaign for a bit... EDIT: Fixed... sort of.
Luni 11-07-07, 03:59 PM	How come ghouls and shadows are playable characters here? They don't have a Level Advancement in the Monster Manual. If you guys assigned one to them, could you also assign one to a Medusa?
TelinArtho 11-07-07, 04:00 PM	So I've just recently received the entire composition of the party for my new table-top campaign. Previous campaign: Human Fighter 4/Paladin 6, Human Cleric 11, Human Ranger 8/Cleric 2, Elf Fighter 5/Sorcerer 6 In general, pretty much everyone was good-aligned, and it was a high-heroic-type of campaign... This campaign: Goblin Bard, Chaotic Neutral Human Necromancer (UA variant with Skeletal Minion), Chaotic Neutral Human Druid, Chaotic Neutral Elf Battle Sorcerer (UA), Chaotic Good Half-Orc Barbarian, (not sure on alignment...) Half-Elf Rogue, (not sure on alignment...) Seems I'm going to be playing with a bit of a different party dynamic here...
TelinArtho 11-07-07, 04:00 PM	How come ghouls and shadows are playable characters here? They don't have a Level Advancement in the Monster Manual. If you guys assigned one to them, could you also assign one to a Medusa? We stole the LA that these have in Libris Mortis. I don't know that a medusa has one...
McJarvis 11-07-07, 04:01 PM	How come ghouls and shadows are playable characters here? They don't have a Level Advancement in the Monster Manual. If you guys assigned one to them, could you also assign one to a Medusa? They have LA listings in Libris Mortis- so we used that. edit- those darn ninjas!
lonewolf 11-07-07, 04:05 PM	I dont think if we should start a discussion about this, but in the 3.0 book Savage Species, the Medusa recieved a LA of +4.
TelinArtho 11-07-07, 04:13 PM	Only +4? That's crazy low for something with a Petrifying Gaze... In fact, there's no creature that has a gaze to kill or otherwise completely incapacitate the opponent that has a LA.
MindWandererB 11-07-07, 04:14 PM	I dont think if we should start a discussion about this, but in the 3.0 book Savage Species, the Medusa recieved a LA of +4.I'd rather not start dipping into SS--the book has some major balance issues. We discussed the Libris Mortis ones at length re: balance before we decided to adopt them.So I've just recently received the entire composition of the party for my new table-top campaign. Previous campaign: Human Fighter 4/Paladin 6, Human Cleric 11, Human Ranger 8/Cleric 2, Elf Fighter 5/Sorcerer 6 In general, pretty much everyone was good-aligned, and it was a high-heroic-type of campaign... This campaign: Goblin Bard, Chaotic Neutral Human Necromancer (UA variant with Skeletal Minion), Chaotic Neutral Human Druid, Chaotic Neutral Elf Battle Sorcerer (UA), Chaotic Good Half-Orc Barbarian, (not sure on alignment...) Half-Elf Rogue, (not sure on alignment...) Seems I'm going to be playing with a bit of a different party dynamic here...Heheh... looks like my party. Actually, nearly all my parties (my players are a little ADD). Recommendation: Make plot-critical structures fireproof. My players have tried to solve entirely too many problems by burning down the building that contains them. (They're kind of novices, so they don't metagame the fact that they lose out on treasure when they do this.)MwB, i think we need some guidelines on making Agents for Playtesting.. I used Monsters of CR 1 or less... But yes We could use a little guidelines on Agents.. Since no one has made any.. I think they are afraid to try something new... :evillaughI think people will get the hang of them better over time. If I need 2 CRs I'll just take two of yours and make a team out of them. But so far that's not really an issue.I don't understand why you're taking that out now. This is hardly a matter of game balance. And no one complained when we made that ruling on the efficient quiver- despite common sense saying that it might be used to hold things that are "arrow sized" instead of just arrows and bolts.I don't just use the GM stick for balane issues. I need to make sure that the game makes sense. No new player in their right mind will guess that an aasmiar PC would need 2x cost armor. And no TT GM in their right mind would do it, either. There are some times when the RAI is so obvious that one should use it even in contradiction with the RAW, and this is one such time.
Hirumajoe 11-07-07, 04:17 PM	So anybody looking for TT players in the Pasadena area? :D
McJarvis 11-07-07, 04:19 PM	And no TT GM in their right mind would do it, either. There are some times when the RAI is so obvious that one should use it even in contradiction with the RAW, and this is one such time. But the same thing doesn't hold true for armors that don't cover the tail region? Like I said- this just sounds very self-contradictory & I don't really understand your(meaning anyone backing up this kind of ruling) true motives here. I don't think any newcomers here would think a Kobold or a Tiefling wears non-humanoid armor even if it DID cover the tail region (for instance), but you seem perfectly fine with that notion.
TelinArtho 11-07-07, 04:19 PM	Heheh... looks like my party. Actually, nearly all my parties (my players are a little ADD). Recommendation: Make plot-critical structures fireproof. My players have tried to solve entirely too many problems by burning down the building that contains them. (They're kind of novices, so they don't metagame the fact that they lose out on treasure when they do this.) The best part about the composition of the party is what they played last time, compared to what they are playing this time... Human Fighter/Paladin -> Human Necromancer Human Cleric -> Goblin Bard Human Ranger/Cleric -> Human Druid Elf Fighter/Sorcerer -> Elf Battle Sorcerer. The first two here are playing characters that are nearly polar opposites (the goblin bard is out seeking power, the human cleric's religion sought to restrict power to those who deserved it). The latter two are relatively new to gaming - so I'm not surprised they are sticking with things that they are familiar with. The other two are new to my next campaign. That said - in my last campaign, in order to solve a problem with a gate open to the Abyss, instead of trying to find a way to close the gate, they instead brought a mountain down on it... Too bad I didn't get to finish that one - it certainly would've come back to haunt them later.
whitebaron 11-07-07, 04:35 PM	So anybody looking for TT players in the Pasadena area? :D nope, but if you want to move to vienna, austria, you'd be welcome - we're currently one down. ;) our party is entirely strange. either pure single class (artificer 10, wizard 10) or mixed pretty badly(warblade/ranger/fighter/revenant blade/dervish <- yes, this is one pc)
lonewolf 11-07-07, 04:38 PM	what can I say... I just fell in love with the Valenar Double Scimitar... :P
MindWandererB 11-07-07, 04:43 PM	But the same thing doesn't hold true for armors that don't cover the tail region? Like I said- this just sounds very self-contradictory & I don't really understand your(meaning anyone backing up this kind of ruling) true motives here. I don't think any newcomers here would think a Kobold or a Tiefling wears non-humanoid armor even if it DID cover the tail region (for instance), but you seem perfectly fine with that notion. The only one I'm GM-sticking is the strictly type-based definition. I'm willing to listen to arguments about the others--and I have to admit, some of them are pretty good. I think I'd accept a tail as an acceptable "addition" to humanoid armor. Probably not wings or 4 arms, though. @Hirm: Maybe, actually. I'm moving to Pomona in a week (BTW, I have to figure out what to do about pairings next week), which is not so far. And I'd like a gaming group that meets more often than three times a year... and one where I don't have to DM because I'm the only one who knows the &^$*& rules well enough.
Hirumajoe 11-07-07, 04:46 PM	nope, but if you want to move to vienna, austria, you'd be welcome - we're currently one down. ;) our party is entirely strange. either pure single class (artificer 10, wizard 10) or mixed pretty badly(warblade/ranger/fighter/revenant blade/dervish <- yes, this is one pc) Actually, I was just a conference in Hannover, Germany, where the co-chair of my data analysis section was ribbing me for not taking the post-doc at the AEI in Germany. So who knows, in two or three years, I might be moving to Europe after my current post-doc ends, assuming I can't find a more permanent position before then.
TelinArtho 11-07-07, 04:47 PM	Too bad you are in California - I'm actually in Massachusetts... you should update your location.
McJarvis 11-07-07, 04:48 PM	If anyone wants to play tabletop in the DC area- I'm looking for a game :-).
Macbrea 11-07-07, 04:50 PM	About to move to middle of nowhere SC.. :P
whitebaron 11-07-07, 04:50 PM	what can I say... I just fell in love with the Valenar Double Scimitar... :P wait till lvl 13. then my airship would kick your a... ;) i should redo Lelenia in coco. half-elf bard to follow verren's path of ineffectiveness. ;) btw: vienna to hannover, its 12hours ride. i knew you americans like you cars, but that? ... bit far. :)
Hirumajoe 11-07-07, 04:53 PM	Too bad you are in California - I'm actually in Massachusetts... you should update your location. Done. :) Problem is for the last year or so I was a tad too busy trying to finish up my Ph.D. and survive a 2-3 year old to run or play in a campaign. Of course, the 3 year old is still a problem, since my wife would probably want to play also. Although she's much more of an RPer than a tactical number cruncher. Back in undergrad we'd co-GM. She'd do major plot and run character RP, where as I did the number crunching and running the bad guys in actual combat. Worked out rather well. 'Course that particular campaign was Legend of the Five Rings rather than D&D.
Macbrea 11-07-07, 04:54 PM	Was only a 5hr drive when I was over in Germany. Though, we did abuse the autobahn a bit.
TelinArtho 11-07-07, 04:57 PM	Heh - my game night is scheduled to be Friday night - and my wife tends to work those. Which means the game is at my place, with my 3 kids (4,3,8 months) after a full day of work... I haven't run a campaign in a few years as one of the players was consistently busy to derail things (he was the paladin) and I was having trouble keeping the story going without his character.
whitebaron 11-07-07, 05:01 PM	Was only a 5hr drive when I was over in Germany. Though, we did abuse the autobahn a bit. well this was pretty fast then. its around 200km/h(130mph). and in austria you're only allowed 130.
Rauul 11-07-07, 05:07 PM	well this was pretty fast then. its around 200km/h(130mph). and in austria you're only allowed 130. LOL and since when do GI's worry about the Speed limit... I know i didn't.. :P
Macbrea 11-07-07, 05:11 PM	We drove everywhere in my roommates 735i. Basically at 260 km/h. So, the trip across germany was fine. In italy, we were a road menace only doing 150km/h down the windy cliff laden roadside. To the point of annoying the italians because we were driving too slow. The BMW was a tad too large for italian roads.
Salrantol 11-07-07, 05:45 PM	I'm willing to listen to arguments about the others--and I have to admit, some of them are pretty good. I think I'd accept a tail as an acceptable "addition" to humanoid armor. Probably not wings or 4 arms, though.The biggest issue with the tail, in terms of realism, is with chain shirts and breastplates. There is no reason why a kobold, minotaur, or tiefling (or even merfolk!) would need to buy a customized chain shirt or breastplate, since they don't even cover where the tail-hole would need to be. Apart from that, needing a customized suit of armor to accomodate a tail is reasonable, since some accomodation for the tail would be necessary. Of course, then the question of amputation comes in...can I amputate my third arm or second head so I don't need special armor? Now, obviously, if I severed my third arm, I won't be able to wield three weapons, and if I decapitate my second head, I won't get to negate dual-wielding penalties, but those are the breaks. :looloo:
Vathelokai 11-07-07, 05:53 PM	I don't want to take [the newspaper] away from Vath- but I'm certainly game to organizing further stories like this. I really wanted something less subjective than "somebody write in about a gladiator you want to write about". I think the FotW thread needed a little something extra instead of the standard cut/paste. :) It might be best (or at least better for the paper) if someone took over for a while. Real life is royally stomping on me. I want to stay involved in it, but doing it all myself isn't working out.
lonewolf 11-07-07, 06:28 PM	rules question, not to be read by MWB because it concernes our fight: Just to be sure: Swarm of crystal is not affected by Damage reduction, correct? All answers also in sblocks please.
McJarvis 11-07-07, 06:31 PM	rules question, not to be read by MWB because it concernes our fight: Just to be sure: Swarm of crystal is not affected by Damage reduction, correct? All answers also in sblocks please. Correct. Powers and spells do no pay attention to DR.
lonewolf 11-07-07, 06:34 PM	ty
Taureus_Drakken 11-07-07, 08:14 PM	Would buying three +1 Heartening Bucklers payoff more than <insert number here> tattoos of Vigor? Not so much for a single 3FC, but over the course of one's career in the arena. 3(1885gp) for 5 temp HP/4 minutes per fight. vs (100Xgp) for 5X (X=ML) temp HP/X minutes per fight. Seems like the tattoos are the better choice, but remember they count against expendables... I am just thinking about possible purchases to eventually make. Thanks in advance! ~Taureus~
McJarvis 11-07-07, 08:17 PM	Would buying three +1 Heartening Bucklers payoff more than <insert number here> tattoos of Vigor? Not so much for a single 3FC, but over the course of one's career in the arena. 3(1885gp) for 5 temp HP/4 minutes per fight. vs (100Xgp) for 5X (X=ML) temp HP/X minutes per fight. Seems like the tattoos are the better choice, but remember they count against expendables... I am just thinking about possible purchases to eventually make. Thanks in advance! ~Taureus~ I've heard that eventually the expendable cap doesn't mean as much- I'd suspect that the tattoos would payout more. Really, IMO, this is the reason why we have the expendable cap in the first place. Why would you pay 12+k for a magic item that a simple scroll can replicate for a fraction of the cost? You're only gaurunteed to have like 30 some fights. Oddly- table top is the exact same way, but for some reason we don't play it that way. [3 encounters per night, usually once every week or two...I guess it depends on how long you intend to play in a campaign].
Taureus_Drakken 11-07-07, 08:23 PM	I've heard that eventually the expendable cap doesn't mean as much- I'd suspect that the tattoos would payout more. Really, IMO, this is the reason why we have the expendable cap in the first place. Why would you pay 12+k for a magic item that a simple scroll can replicate for a fraction of the cost? You're only gaurunteed to have like 30 some fights. Oddly- table top is the exact same way, but for some reason we don't play it that way. [3 encounters per night, usually once every week or two...I guess it depends on how long you intend to play in a campaign]. I figured as much. As nice as that ability seems for a shield, compared to the tattoos, it is far inferior. Doing a quick calculation (yay for simple multiplication;) ), you would get 4 times as many HP for the same duration form a tattoo (assuming you can afford it with you expendables cap). ~Taureus~
Hirumajoe 11-07-07, 09:16 PM	Actually, the reason you go for permanent items in the games, and for a Heartening shield over a tattoo is *actions*. The most valuable currency in the game. If you have an item, its always on, and you don't need to take an action to drink it, cast it, or whatever. The Heartening shield is an immediate action, versus the standard action to tap the tattoo. The heartening shield can be done in reaction to an attack. Tapping that tattoo can't. So basically, yes you'll get more hp out of tattoos, but later in the game, you're not necessarily going to get the chance to activate them....
McJarvis 11-07-07, 09:18 PM	Actually, the reason you go for permanent items in the games, and for a Heartening shield over a tattoo is *actions*. The most valuable currency in the game. If you have an item, its always on, and you don't need to take an action to drink it, cast it, or whatever. The Heartening shield is an immediate action, versus the standard action to tap the tattoo. The heartening shield can be done in reaction to an attack. Tapping that tattoo can't. So basically, yes you'll get more hp out of tattoos, but later in the game, you're not necessarily going to get the chance to activate them.... Oh, no- I mean items like the cape of mounteblank.
Stormwind 11-08-07, 07:45 AM	Hi all, Just thought I'd pop back and say hi. It's good to see so many familiar faces still here, although I gather there have been some changes. Have been tossing up the idea of coming back, but will be poking around a bit first (gotta check out all the new rules and so forth :D). Storm
McJarvis 11-08-07, 08:05 AM	Hi all, Just thought I'd pop back and say hi. It's good to see so many familiar faces still here, although I gather there have been some changes. Have been tossing up the idea of coming back, but will be poking around a bit first (gotta check out all the new rules and so forth :D). Storm I vote yes? CoCo is the awesomest.
Macbrea 11-08-07, 08:41 AM	Hey, Stormwind.. Rules have changed a bit on 3fc (three fight cycle). That will be the biggest change since you left. It basically says you have 3 fights before you can purchase stuff and you get to save spells and powerpoints between fights.
hogarth 11-08-07, 09:59 AM	Are incorporeal creatures susceptible to spells/powers which hinder movement like Web, Grease, Entangling Ectoplasm and so forth? What about Glitterdust?
McJarvis 11-08-07, 10:04 AM	Are incorporeal creatures susceptible to spells/powers which hinder movement like Web, Grease, Entangling Ectoplasm and so forth? What about Glitterdust? I'm pretty sure they aren't, though I'm not sure I know of a specific ruling saying they are not. [other than I know they negate touchsight because you can't come in physical contact with them]
Macbrea 11-08-07, 10:13 AM	As they are allowed to travel through material objects and all of those are Creation type spells without a force descriptor. Then they should be immune to the effects of them. In the case of grease they fly by magical means and therefore cannot be tripped and fall down. You aren't required to make balance checks while magically flying. The rest of them would simply appear a second then fall to the ground. At best it would outline them for a single round then fall to the ground in the case of glitterdust.
Salrantol 11-08-07, 11:45 AM	Does Energy Retort qualify as a "ranged touch attack power" for the purposes of Power Specialization?POWER SPECIALIZATION [PSIONIC] You deal more damage with your powers. Prerequisites: Weapon Focus (ray), manifester level 4th. Benefit: With rays and ranged touch attack powers that deal damage, you deal an extra 2 points of damage. If you expend your psionic focus when you manifest a ray or a ranged touch attack power that deals damage, you add your key ability bonus to the damage (instead of adding 2).Energy Retort Psychokinesis [see text] Level: Psion/wilder 3 Display: Visual Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal and close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels); see text Targets: You and creature or object attacking you; see text Duration: 1 min./level Saving Throw: Reflex half or Fortitude half; see text Power Resistance: Yes Power Points: 5 Upon manifesting this power, you choose cold, electricity, fire, or sonic. You weave a field of potential energy of the chosen type around your body. The first successful attack made against you in each round during the power’s duration prompts a response from the field without any effort on your part. The attack may be physical, the effect of a power, or the effect of a spell (including spell-like, supernatural, and extraordinary abilities). An “ectoburst” discharges from the field, targeting the source of the attack and dealing 4d6 points of damage of the chosen energy type. To be affected, a target must be within close range, you must have line of sight and line of effect to it, and you must be able to identify the source of the attack. The ectoburst is a ranged touch attack made using your base attack bonus plus your key ability modifier for your manifesting class. Cold: A field of this energy type deals +1 point of damage per die. The saving throw to reduce damage from a cold retort is a Fortitude save instead of a Reflex save. Electricity: Manifesting a field of this energy type provides a +2 bonus to the save DC and a +2 bonus on manifester level checks for the purpose of overcoming power resistance. Fire: A field of this energy type deals +1 point of damage per die. Sonic: A field of this energy type deals -1 point of damage per die and ignores an object’s hardness. This power’s subtype is the same as the type of energy you manifest. Augment: For every additional power point you spend, this power’s duration increases by 1 minute.
McJarvis 11-08-07, 11:48 AM	Does Energy Retort qualify as a "ranged touch attack power" for the purposes of Power Specialization?POWER SPECIALIZATION [PSIONIC] You deal more damage with your powers. Prerequisites: Weapon Focus (ray), manifester level 4th. Benefit: With rays and ranged touch attack powers that deal damage, you deal an extra 2 points of damage. If you expend your psionic focus when you manifest a ray or a ranged touch attack power that deals damage, you add your key ability bonus to the damage (instead of adding 2).Energy Retort Psychokinesis [see text] Level: Psion/wilder 3 Display: Visual Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal and close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels); see text Targets: You and creature or object attacking you; see text Duration: 1 min./level Saving Throw: Reflex half or Fortitude half; see text Power Resistance: Yes Power Points: 5 Upon manifesting this power, you choose cold, electricity, fire, or sonic. You weave a field of potential energy of the chosen type around your body. The first successful attack made against you in each round during the power’s duration prompts a response from the field without any effort on your part. The attack may be physical, the effect of a power, or the effect of a spell (including spell-like, supernatural, and extraordinary abilities). An “ectoburst” discharges from the field, targeting the source of the attack and dealing 4d6 points of damage of the chosen energy type. To be affected, a target must be within close range, you must have line of sight and line of effect to it, and you must be able to identify the source of the attack. The ectoburst is a ranged touch attack made using your base attack bonus plus your key ability modifier for your manifesting class. Cold: A field of this energy type deals +1 point of damage per die. The saving throw to reduce damage from a cold retort is a Fortitude save instead of a Reflex save. Electricity: Manifesting a field of this energy type provides a +2 bonus to the save DC and a +2 bonus on manifester level checks for the purpose of overcoming power resistance. Fire: A field of this energy type deals +1 point of damage per die. Sonic: A field of this energy type deals -1 point of damage per die and ignores an object’s hardness. This power’s subtype is the same as the type of energy you manifest. Augment: For every additional power point you spend, this power’s duration increases by 1 minute. I'd say so. The target portion says see text, and the text says it's a ranged touch attack.
Stormwind 11-08-07, 11:57 AM	Are incorporeal creatures susceptible to spells/powers which hinder movement like Web, Grease, Entangling Ectoplasm and so forth? What about Glitterdust? Difficult to pinpoint an exact rule in RAW, however under incorporeal there is the following: An incorporeal creature’s attacks pass through (ignore) natural armor, armor, and shields, although deflection bonuses and force effects (such as mage armor) work normally against it. Incorporeal creatures pass through and operate in water as easily as they do in air. Incorporeal creatures cannot fall or take falling damage. Incorporeal creatures cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can they be tripped or grappled. In fact, they cannot take any physical action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor are they subject to such actions. Incorporeal creatures have no weight and do not set off traps that are triggered by weight. All of which (the highlighted part especially), indicate that any spell/power with just a physical manifestation would not effect an incorporeal creature. For a more precise definition you probably need to run it past the elders in the courtroom.
Stormwind 11-08-07, 12:06 PM	Hey, Stormwind.. Rules have changed a bit on 3fc (three fight cycle). That will be the biggest change since you left. It basically says you have 3 fights before you can purchase stuff and you get to save spells and powerpoints between fights. Yeah ... has the 3fc changed much since it was implemented (I was still here then) ... was also wondering what's the story with the guilds atm? I vote yes? CoCo is the awesomest.:D
TelinArtho 11-08-07, 12:11 PM	The guild game is currently suspended due to lack of dedicated interest and consumption of resources. That said - everyone should still feel free to roleplay within them, but there's nothing active going on right now.
Rauul 11-08-07, 01:52 PM	The guild game is currently suspended due to lack of dedicated interest and consumption of resources. That said - everyone should still feel free to roleplay within them, but there's nothing active going on right now. Vath was going to run a campaign about Guilds taking over the council or something like that.. leading into the new community/guild system... i think
TelinArtho 11-08-07, 01:57 PM	@MWB - the location for the encounter calculator has moved from d20SRD.org to penpaperpixel.org. Here's the full link: http://www.penpaperpixel.org/tools/d20encountercalculator.htm This should be fixed in the Questlording/Campaignlording sections of the rules. Not sure if it is referenced anywhere else though.
TelinArtho 11-08-07, 02:36 PM	Hmmm.... Does a tiny creature with a reach weapon threaten out to 5ft? Can a tiny creature with a tiny whip reach out of 5ft? 10ft? Just thinking about options for a half-dragon grig...
hogarth 11-08-07, 02:59 PM	Hmmm.... Does a tiny creature with a reach weapon threaten out to 5ft? Not by the rules as written. 2 x 0 ft = 0 ft Can a tiny creature with a tiny whip reach out of 5ft? 10ft? It's not totally clear if a whip is 3x normal reach or 2x normal reach + 5 ft. I had a related question about a choker using a whip (for Kilpquabjeg) once upon a time, but there was no consensus, IIRC.
TelinArtho 11-08-07, 04:18 PM	The Aquan Retribution Submission for Master DM Competition #37 (Death Squad) Comments are welcome here if you like. I can't make any changes at this point, but I might alter my home copy later. Of course my goal in that submission was to create something with the tools I have - which is to say - just the SRD... Well, enboldened by a 3rd place finish, I decided to enter in the next Master DM Competition (#38 - Populate a Map) The Home of Frantigolus, Treasure Seeker and Antique Collector
McJarvis 11-08-07, 04:45 PM	Is DR/Psionics the same as DR/Magic?
TelinArtho 11-08-07, 04:51 PM	Is DR/Psionics the same as DR/Magic? Not sure - where is there something with DR/Psionics?
McJarvis 11-08-07, 04:54 PM	Not sure - where is there something with DR/Psionics? Ectoplasmic Form. I just did a search on psionic monsters- looks like this might be the only DR/psionics in the game.
Hirumajoe 11-08-07, 04:56 PM	Ectoplasmic Form. I just did a search on psionic monsters- looks like this might be the only DR/psionics in the game. Given that its effectively looking for a +1 weapon, and we allow our magical/psionic items to be freely mixed between the two, then it probably should be equivalent. Otherwise we'll have to start labeling all our weapons +1 (Magic) Greatsword or +1 (Psionic) Greatsword.
TelinArtho 11-08-07, 04:59 PM	Ugh - it does indeed. It seems to me that everything else has DR/Magic - so I would assume DR/Psionics is equivalent. That said - I find no mention of something describing what DR/Psionics applies to...
McJarvis 11-08-07, 05:11 PM	Given that its effectively looking for a +1 weapon, and we allow our magical/psionic items to be freely mixed between the two, then it probably should be equivalent. Otherwise we'll have to start labeling all our weapons +1 (Magic) Greatsword or +1 (Psionic) Greatsword. Don't we already have to do that, since you can't mix magical/psionic enhancement abilities?
MindWandererB 11-08-07, 05:46 PM	Don't we already have to do that, since you can't mix magical/psionic enhancement abilities? Who says you can't? A merciful suppression weapon doesn't seem to break any rules that I know of.
McJarvis 11-08-07, 05:47 PM	Who says you can't? A merciful suppression weapon doesn't seem to break any rules that I know of. I thought hood ran into issues when he tried to get a seeking/something(supression maybe?) bow.
McJarvis 11-08-07, 05:51 PM	Out of curiosity: Why did we apply the size restriction to polymorph but not metamorphasis? edit- and why did Valen cast enlarge person as well as metamorph in that battle where he used the supression weapon against MWB? Metamorph changes your type, which would invalidate enlarge person(?)
MindWandererB 11-08-07, 05:56 PM	Out of curiosity: Why did we apply the size restriction to polymorph but not metamorphasis? edit- and why did Valen cast enlarge person as well as metamorph in that battle where he used the supression weapon against MWB? Metamorph changes your type, which would invalidate enlarge person(?) It was originally because the elders at the time used the following logic: Polymorph is based on Alter Self. Alter Self allows only +/- 1 size category. Polymorph says that you can't become smaller than Fine, but it doesn't specifically lift the +/- 1 size category limitation. Metamorphosis, on the other hand, has no reference to anything with a size limitation and therefore doesn't have one. This was before a RotG (or was it an FAQ?) that clarified the lack of size limitation on Polymorph. So now it's purely a house rule rather than a whacked interpretation. Metamorphosis should therefore be included.
McJarvis 11-08-07, 05:57 PM	It was originally because the elders at the time used the following logic: Polymorph is based on Alter Self. Alter Self allows only +/- 1 size category. Polymorph says that you can't become smaller than Fine, but it doesn't specifically lift the +/- 1 size category limitation. Metamorphosis, on the other hand, has no reference to anything with a size limitation and therefore doesn't have one. This was before a RotG (or was it an FAQ?) that clarified the lack of size limitation on Polymorph. So now it's purely a house rule rather than a whacked interpretation. Metamorphosis should therefore be included. Makes me wonder why no one abused it in the meantime :-) any insights on the enlarged person/troll issue? PS- While I approve of the expansion of the rule to metamorph, we should probably have the elders vote on that for posterity's sake. I can't imagine anyone saying no to it- if they do I'll plop down credits for a high level egoist right away
MindWandererB 11-08-07, 06:04 PM	Makes me wonder why no one abused it in the meantime :-) any insights on the enlarged person/troll issue? Oh, missed that, I thought we all understood that trick by now: it's because Metamorphosis doesn't change the size of equipment, but Enlarge Person does. So you become Large, then change shape, and you keep your stuff.
McJarvis 11-08-07, 06:15 PM	Oh, missed that, I thought we all understood that trick by now: it's because Metamorphosis doesn't change the size of equipment, but Enlarge Person does. So you become Large, then change shape, and you keep your stuff. Why would that work? The moment you become of the giant type the enlarge person wears off & your gear goes back to normal. It's not like you can cast enlarge person on stuff without a valid target wearing it. (I guess as another example: if you cast enlarge person on yourself you can't give your large weapon to a half-giant and expect it to stay large. The magic is contingent on the effect being on you, isn't it?) edit- By way of RAW Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature’s possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. Once you are no longer a valid target for Enlarge Person, the equipment is no longer in the possession of an enlarged creature. [you're just a polymorphed giant]. Therefore it should return to it's normal size. I guess it'd be absorbed into the polymorph spell. edit2- Expansion would still work, though, so Valen isn't exactly without options. Just gotta opt for those expensive Tat's. edit3- If you need even more proof- imagine if he got enlarged via enlarge person & then had a contingency to polymorph into something medium sized(that wasn't a humanoid). Would you really expect his equipment to just fall off?
MindWandererB 11-08-07, 06:23 PM	Why would that work? The moment you become of the giant type the enlarge person wears off & your gear goes back to normal. It's not like you can cast enlarge person on stuff without a valid target wearing it. (I guess as another example: if you cast enlarge person on yourself you can't give your large weapon to a half-giant and expect it to stay large. The magic is contingent on the effect being on you, isn't it?) edit- By way of RAW Once you are no longer a valid target for Enlarge Person, the equipment is no longer in the possession of an enlarged creature. [you're just a polymorphed giant]. Therefore it should return to it's normal size. I guess it'd be absorbed into the polymorph spell. edit2- Expansion would still work, though, so Valen isn't exactly without options. Just gotta opt for those expensive Tat's. Huh. You're right. I knew it worked for Expansion, but it shouldn't work for Enlarge Person. Dangit, I wish I'd caught that earlier.
McJarvis 11-08-07, 06:28 PM	Sorry hirm :( I'm actually doing research for Thorell & ran into that snag- then thought of Valen's fight.
Hirumajoe 11-08-07, 06:31 PM	Sorry hirm :( I'm actually doing research for Thorell & ran into that snag- then thought of Valen's fight. Hmm... I didn't realize spells ended when the target was no longer valid. But I guess that makes sense. (So I was thinking overlapping effects, and thus its still in character's hand who is under effects, so effect should be going with equipment). Ah well, as you say, its just means 600 gp tattoos vs 150 gp potions. Although, I was already considering using Expanded Knowledge: Expansion as his 12th level feat anyways... (Considering the Blackmarket Psychic Churgery got pointed out as over the cost limit). This is just one more reason to go that route. Fortunately he levels this week whether I win or lose.
McJarvis 11-08-07, 06:32 PM	Hmm... I didn't realize spells ended when the target was no longer valid. But I guess that makes sense. (So I was thinking overlapping effects, and thus its still in character's hand who is under effects, so effect should be going with equipment). Ah well, as you say, its just means 600 gp tattoos vs 150 gp potions. Although, I was already considering using Expanded Knowledge: Expansion as his 12th level feat anyways... (Considering the Blackmarket Psychic Churgery got pointed out as over the cost limit). This is just one more reason to go that route. Fortunately he levels this week whether I win or lose. Hah! totally awesome :) RE: Effects- I dunno if the spell ends when you're no longer a valid target(ie- if you unmetamorphasize you might still get enlargement], but it definitely is not active while you're not a valid target.
templer10 11-08-07, 07:23 PM	Hmm... I didn't realize spells ended when the target was no longer valid. But I guess that makes sense. (So I was thinking overlapping effects, and thus its still in character's hand who is under effects, so effect should be going with equipment). Ah well, as you say, its just means 600 gp tattoos vs 150 gp potions. Although, I was already considering using Expanded Knowledge: Expansion as his 12th level feat anyways... (Considering the Blackmarket Psychic Churgery got pointed out as over the cost limit). This is just one more reason to go that route. Fortunately he levels this week whether I win or lose. Oh goodie- Longshot needed new Victims Competition...
Hirumajoe 11-08-07, 07:28 PM	Oh goodie- Longshot needed new Victims Competition... I give Longshot 50/50 odds. It depends on whether Valen is listed first in the fight listing or not. If Valen is first, he has good odds of winning. If Longshot is first, he probably wins. :)
templer10 11-08-07, 07:41 PM	I give Longshot 50/50 odds. It depends on whether Valen is listed first in the fight listing or not. If Valen is first, he has good odds of winning. If Longshot is first, he probably wins. :) Err- how you figure? he has 98 HP on a bad day going into a fight. Althrough if you get him next week - youll get him cohortless which is much easier.
Hirumajoe 11-08-07, 07:58 PM	Err- how you figure? he has 98 HP on a bad day going into a fight. Althrough if you get him next week - youll get him cohortless which is much easier. He gets 2 prebuff rounds and a surprise round. If he wins initiative which is definitely possible, he gets the 1st round to act as well. 1st Prebuff Round: Expansion - Large, Quickened (7pp), Offensive Prescience (1pp) 2nd Prebuff Round: Metamorphosis - Annis Hag (Str 25 base) (7pp) Surprise Round: Dimension Door (7pp) 1st Round: Full attack with Haste +9 BAB + 9 Str + 1 Enh + 1 Haste - 1 Size = +19 to hit 3d6 (Large Greatsword) + 13 (2-handed Str) + 2 (Prescience) + 4 (Favored Enemy) + 1 Ench = 3d6+20 damage Bite deals 1d6+10 Full hasted routine is +19/+19/+14/+13 dealing 3d6+20/3d6+20/3d6+20/1d6+10. I'm guessing Longshot's AC is in the 15 to 20 range (especially if he's flat footed). On average, that should deal about 105 damage. On round one. Plus each of the primary attacks roll 1d20+13 to dispel any effects on you.
McJarvis 11-08-07, 10:43 PM	He gets 2 prebuff rounds and a surprise round. If he wins initiative which is definitely possible, he gets the 1st round to act as well. 1st Prebuff Round: Expansion - Large, Quickened (7pp), Offensive Prescience (1pp) 2nd Prebuff Round: Metamorphosis - Annis Hag (Str 25 base) (7pp) Surprise Round: Dimension Door (7pp) 1st Round: Full attack with Haste +9 BAB + 9 Str + 1 Enh + 1 Haste - 1 Size = +19 to hit 3d6 (Large Greatsword) + 13 (2-handed Str) + 2 (Prescience) + 4 (Favored Enemy) + 1 Ench = 3d6+20 damage Bite deals 1d6+10 Full hasted routine is +19/+19/+14/+13 dealing 3d6+20/3d6+20/3d6+20/1d6+10. I'm guessing Longshot's AC is in the 15 to 20 range (especially if he's flat footed). On average, that should deal about 105 damage. On round one. Plus each of the primary attacks roll 1d20+13 to dispel any effects on you. This kind of thing makes me glad I usually stick to the ECL3-6 leagues. 1st round kills are anticlimatic. :(
hogarth 11-08-07, 10:55 PM	This kind of thing makes me glad I usually stick to the ECL3-6 leagues. 1st round kills are anticlimatic. :( Sounds climactic to me. :)
Rauul 11-08-07, 11:35 PM	Who do i PM telling them i want to do Quests, Missions, MiniQuests.. Don't think i am ready for a campaign..
MindWandererB 11-09-07, 12:16 AM	Who do i PM telling them i want to do Quests, Missions, MiniQuests.. Don't think i am ready for a campaign.. Pitlords. Miniquest requests go with the fight requests, and post #3 of the Characters thread has a list of questlords looking for players. Not that I've updated that list ever in the time I've been GM--good thing those people are all still here.
Rauul 11-09-07, 12:19 AM	Pitlords. Miniquest requests go with the fight requests, and post #3 of the Characters thread has a list of questlords looking for players. Not that I've updated that list ever in the time I've been GM--good thing those people are all still here. well i also wanna run a playtest... but noone wants to make agents :confused: :confused:
MindWandererB 11-09-07, 01:03 AM	well i also wanna run a playtest... but noone wants to make agents :confused: :confused: I'd stat up some, but still, two players just wouldn't be that interesting. Maybe I should stat up a whole bunch, then dole them out to whoever wants to play them--sort of the way CoCo at one point allowed beginning players to be a mercenary for a week or two.
Luni 11-09-07, 01:07 AM	I'd stat up some, but still, two players just wouldn't be that interesting. Maybe I should stat up a whole bunch, then dole them out to whoever wants to play them--sort of the way CoCo at one point allowed beginning players to be a mercenary for a week or two. Don't we still have mercenaries that could be used in the playtest?
Rauul 11-09-07, 01:16 AM	I'd stat up some, but still, two players just wouldn't be that interesting. Maybe I should stat up a whole bunch, then dole them out to whoever wants to play them--sort of the way CoCo at one point allowed beginning players to be a mercenary for a week or two. Make Elders and McJarvis run one... :) (j/k)
MindWandererB 11-09-07, 01:29 AM	Don't we still have mercenaries that could be used in the playtest? That's true--the ECL 1-2 ones could be used as-is. All right, new option for the playtest thread: you can put yourself down as willing to write tactics for a merc or other unassigned participant, even if you're not willing to create one yourself.
templer10 11-09-07, 04:40 AM	He gets 2 prebuff rounds and a surprise round. If he wins initiative which is definitely possible, he gets the 1st round to act as well. 1st Prebuff Round: Expansion - Large, Quickened (7pp), Offensive Prescience (1pp) 2nd Prebuff Round: Metamorphosis - Annis Hag (Str 25 base) (7pp) Surprise Round: Dimension Door (7pp) 1st Round: Full attack with Haste +9 BAB + 9 Str + 1 Enh + 1 Haste - 1 Size = +19 to hit 3d6 (Large Greatsword) + 13 (2-handed Str) + 2 (Prescience) + 4 (Favored Enemy) + 1 Ench = 3d6+20 damage Bite deals 1d6+10 Full hasted routine is +19/+19/+14/+13 dealing 3d6+20/3d6+20/3d6+20/1d6+10. I'm guessing Longshot's AC is in the 15 to 20 range (especially if he's flat footed). On average, that should deal about 105 damage. On round one. Plus each of the primary attacks roll 1d20+13 to dispel any effects on you. Nasty - and could definently work of course - you are talking about powers you dont have so i assume you are taking a level of slayer next.
Rauul 11-09-07, 04:55 AM	That's true--the ECL 1-2 ones could be used as-is. All right, new option for the playtest thread: you can put yourself down as willing to write tactics for a merc or other unassigned participant, even if you're not willing to create one yourself. maybe they need to know what awards they get... me I just want to see Community and Guilds redone so they can be played by everyone... ecl 3- ecl 20.. (maybe a playtester can get a free agent, 2 room house or a +10% to influence when communitys and guilds start up or a free quest) Just dropping ideas to get people interested... or .01 credit per tactics wrote (10 tactics for 1 credit.. like prison violations)
McJarvis 11-09-07, 07:40 AM	Make Elders and McJarvis run one... :) (j/k) LOL- maybe I should get a title of Pseudo Elder if I'm gonna be grouped with them like that :P If I could get only ECL3 fights for my regular pitlording duties I'd be willing to volunteer tactics & maybe a generated character. Given that I'm already generating two monsters a week- that'd be two more playtest people a week.
McJarvis 11-09-07, 02:30 PM	Is that a DMing offer I hear. :D As I said, I'd be up for such a thing. I'm sure if you posted sources allowed, starting level, and other info, you'd probably have a party together quick. I'm not too crazy about board administration. Does Real still require that you have played in a game to DM one? Or should we just keep a thread here in CoCo? [I doubt many would object to one "unaffiliated" thread floating around] edit- Details: I will likely be using a heavily modified WLD campaign. I like the flavor of the dungeon- but there are not enough sidequests in it to keep any but the most boring of parties satisfied.
Eamane 11-09-07, 02:37 PM	I'm not too crazy about board administration. Does Real still require that you have played in a game to DM one? Or should we just keep a thread here in CoCo? [I doubt many would object to one "unaffiliated" thread floating around] Yeah, they want about a month of 'being around' before they'll let you DM. And they aren't too keen on campaigns coming in with lots/all of the slots already filled. <shrugs> It could be made to work, but it'd take some effort.
hogarth 11-09-07, 02:38 PM	I'm not too crazy about board administration. Does Real still require that you have played in a game to DM one? Or should we just keep a thread here in CoCo? [I doubt many would object to one "unaffiliated" thread floating around] edit- Details: I will likely be using a heavily modified WLD campaign. I like the flavor of the dungeon- but there are not enough sidequests in it to keep any but the most boring of parties satisfied. Why would it have to be an "unaffiliated" thread? Couldn't you run it as a standard CoCo campaign?
McJarvis 11-09-07, 02:40 PM	Why would it have to be an "unaffiliated" thread? Couldn't you run it as a standard CoCo campaign? Honestly- I want to be free to introduce my own rewards & custom items and whatnot. If it were affiliated I'd have to adhere to the standard rules of CoCo- and we wouldn't be able to pull things from outside the core(like warlocks or warblades, for instance) edit- if backed into a wall I *could* revise the campaign I have prepared to a CoCo one- but that would involve stripping out level 1->2 of it too, which I wouldn't exactly be thrilled about.
Hirumajoe 11-09-07, 02:44 PM	Honestly- I want to be free to introduce my own rewards & custom items and whatnot. If it were affiliated I'd have to adhere to the standard rules of CoCo- and we wouldn't be able to pull things from outside the core(like warlocks or warblades, for instance) Technically, on a campaign, as DM, you're free to do whatever you want within the confines of the Campaign as I understand it. As long as you "take away" the custom items at the end of the 15 week run and "give them back" at the start of the next Campaign segment, you should be kosher, I think. :)
McJarvis 11-09-07, 02:45 PM	Technically, on a campaign, as DM, you're free to do whatever you want within the confines of the Campaign as I understand it. As long as you "take away" the custom items at the end of the 15 week run and "give them back" at the start of the next Campaign segment, you should be kosher, I think. :) Hmm. That means I could technically have everyone play out ECL1->2 as some "bonus weeks", right?
Hirumajoe 11-09-07, 02:51 PM	Hmm. That means I could technically have everyone play out ECL1->2 as some "bonus weeks", right? I would assume so. Or if you're really desperate, an NPC Vampire comes by with a DC 50 save difficulty and hits every one once. Instant 2 negative energy levels. 24 hours later, you've got your party of 1st level characters. :D Edit: Ok, I admit it might be a tad difficult to work in story-wise, but you get the idea. Certainly run it by MWB, but I'm going to guess it would be fine.
Rauul 11-09-07, 03:16 PM	LOL- maybe I should get a title of Pseudo Elder if I'm gonna be grouped with them like that :P Actually i was thinking about a better title for you... "CoCo's P.I.T.A."
McJarvis 11-09-07, 03:19 PM	Actually i was thinking about a better title for you... "CoCo's P.I.T.A." You know I'm only your PITA :P
Rauul 11-09-07, 03:24 PM	Hmm. That means I could technically have everyone play out ECL1->2 as some "bonus weeks", right? Well if your gonna run an ECL 3 (-2) campaign... i may be interested... i have Platon An evil Cleric of Bel... Human... and Gol'ie (Githzerai) who is ECL 3 but acually LvL 1..
Eamane 11-09-07, 04:06 PM	Random Query; Is the Scout attack package based off of total modifiers or take ten modifiers? Or something else entirely that should probably be mentioned in the description of the package? I.E: Do I need a search or survival of +10 (or higher, with 5 ranks)to track DC of 10, or a search or survival of +0 (or higher, with 5 ranks) to track DC of 10 and +5 for the DC 15 of outside? The first puts the package about four levels away for Xuan, while the second lets her use it for her next fight ^_^
Hirumajoe 11-09-07, 04:15 PM	Random Query; Is the Scout attack package based off of total modifiers or take ten modifiers? Or something else entirely that should probably be mentioned in the description of the package? I.E: Do I need a search or survival of +10 (or higher, with 5 ranks)to track DC of 10, or a search or survival of +0 (or higher, with 5 ranks) to track DC of 10 and +5 for the DC 15 of outside? The first puts the package about four levels away for Xuan, while the second lets her use it for her next fight ^_^ Take 10 + modifiers. Its one of the few instances where we have a DC value from the books to "roll" against, as opposed to the house rules we made up to give the skills uses. (Which I've been finding very handy, although I wonder if Valen actually ever does pull off a victory before his opponent acts if they'll get reconsidered. :) )
MindWandererB 11-09-07, 04:17 PM	maybe they need to know what awards they get... me I just want to see Community and Guilds redone so they can be played by everyone... ecl 3- ecl 20.. (maybe a playtester can get a free agent, 2 room house or a +10% to influence when communitys and guilds start up or a free quest) Just dropping ideas to get people interested... or .01 credit per tactics wrote (10 tactics for 1 credit.. like prison violations)Those are some pretty substantial rewards... I'd certainly allow any participant in the playtest to apply the results to their Fame score when the system gets launched, but otherwise, isn't getting to be in an extra fight in a week, credit-free (although with no rewards), incentive enough? Heck, for the agent battles, you barely need tactics--how tough can tactics for a level <=2 character be?I would assume so. Or if you're really desperate, an NPC Vampire comes by with a DC 50 save difficulty and hits every one once. Instant 2 negative energy levels. 24 hours later, you've got your party of 1st level characters. :D Edit: Ok, I admit it might be a tad difficult to work in story-wise, but you get the idea. Certainly run it by MWB, but I'm going to guess it would be fine.As much as I hate to step on your fun, this is the CoCo, and the rules do need to apply. All characters need to be CoCo-legal at the beginning and end of the campaign, regardless of what happens in the middle, the maximum campaign length is 15 weeks (although you could do a two-parter, it means that all characters would have to be legal when one campaign ended and the other began), and entry costs 5 credits. (Campaignlord is currently worth 3 credits/week, but that may be revised very soon.) I'd personally love to be in a "real" campaign as well, TT preferred over PbP (if Hirumajoe invites me over... hint, hint... last time I'll mention it... if you don't want to be my friend :weep: I'll let you of the hook), but I'd take PbP. If RA doesn't allow it, I'm sure there's some other venue that would work. Does ENWorld have anything like that? Or a blog might work; get on MySpace or create an alt on Gleemax, have the DM post major info (e.g. new encounters) as blog entries, and have the replies be the "plays."
McJarvis 11-09-07, 04:25 PM	As much as I hate to step on your fun, this is the CoCo, and the rules do need to apply. All characters need to be CoCo-legal at the beginning and end of the campaign, regardless of what happens in the middle, the maximum campaign length is 15 weeks (although you could do a two-parter, it means that all characters would have to be legal when one campaign ended and the other began), and entry costs 5 credits. (Campaignlord is currently worth 3 credits/week, but that may be revised very soon.) Couldn't we start a "precursor" thread that culminated in ECL3 PC's that are good to go CoCo-wise, then start the "official" campaign? I'd be willing to campaign lord for free during that time. [I'm not even sure that I'd care if there were credits involved otherwise....] On the other hand- there isn't much point in making it "CoCo official" unless people really wanna fight their gladiators after the campaign is over. It also lets me play with things like giving PC's special significance, special powers, etc, etc. I'd personally love to be in a "real" campaign as well, TT preferred over PbP (if Hirumajoe invites me over... hint, hint... last time I'll mention it... if you don't want to be my friend :weep: I'll let you of the hook), but I'd take PbP. If RA doesn't allow it, I'm sure there's some other venue that would work. Does ENWorld have anything like that? Or a blog might work; get on MySpace or create an alt on Gleemax, have the DM post major info (e.g. new encounters) as blog entries, and have the replies be the "plays." In the past I've created EZboard accounts for this purpose. They seem to work well- especially since it's a free venue.
Hirumajoe 11-09-07, 04:27 PM	As much as I hate to step on your fun, this is the CoCo, and the rules do need to apply. All characters need to be CoCo-legal at the beginning and end of the campaign, regardless of what happens in the middle, the maximum campaign length is 15 weeks (although you could do a two-parter, it means that all characters would have to be legal when one campaign ended and the other began), and entry costs 5 credits. (Campaignlord is currently worth 3 credits/week, but that may be revised very soon.) Oh well. But as you point out, there are plenty of alternatives we could setup. I'd personally love to be in a "real" campaign as well, TT preferred over PbP (if Hirumajoe invites me over... hint, hint... last time I'll mention it... if you don't want to be my friend :weep: I'll let you of the hook), but I'd take PbP. Hmm... Let me talk to the wife. If you're willing to come over and don't mind a 3 year old interupting every two minutes we can probably work something out on the TT front. However, I'd still be interested in being a player in PbP. Just because I haven't run a character in an actual campaign in over 4 or 5 years now... Actually, I know he's out for a bit, but do you think Erithmu would interested in such a TT campaign, since he's close? If RA doesn't allow it, I'm sure there's some other venue that would work. Does ENWorld have anything like that? Or a blog might work; get on MySpace or create an alt on Gleemax, have the DM post major info (e.g. new encounters) as blog entries, and have the replies be the "plays." These are good suggestions.
Taureus_Drakken 11-09-07, 05:39 PM	If RA doesn't allow it, I'm sure there's some other venue that would work. Does ENWorld have anything like that? Or a blog might work; get on MySpace or create an alt on Gleemax, have the DM post major info (e.g. new encounters) as blog entries, and have the replies be the "plays." Myth-Weavers has a really nice forum. They have a character sheet-maker, and their own roller to boot. I am currently running my Age of Worms campaign there, and although it's slwo going, I am not complaining about it. ~Taureus~
TelinArtho 11-09-07, 05:41 PM	Well - I'll leave the discussion for now. @McJ - let me know if you get it going and have room for me because I am definitely interested. Time to go prepare for my game... Only 4 players are going to be coming tonight: Goblin Bard, Human Druid, Human Necromancer and Elf Battle Sorcerer... should be fun.
templer10 11-09-07, 05:55 PM	Time to go prepare for my game... Only 4 players are going to be coming tonight: Goblin Bard, Human Druid, Human Necromancer and Elf Battle Sorcerer... should be fun. May the blessing of the dice gods be upon you (not that you need them really...)
TelinArtho 11-10-07, 02:01 AM	Meh - no one died at least :) Good session though - and the personalities of the characters so far are great.
mucki 11-10-07, 06:28 AM	In the past I've created EZboard accounts for this purpose. They seem to work well- especially since it's a free venue. I have a working phpBB3 that I can offer. I made it to be able to PbP with one of my TT groups. I modified it a bit, so you can do wiki style links (like [[word]]) to a connected mediawiki for presenting game related info in an easier to look up manner. If you need a room then I can gladly offer one. The only caveat is that everything except your subforum would have german content (the phpBB3 itself is multilingual, so that might be only a minor issue).
Rauul 11-10-07, 06:34 AM	I am thinking of running a ECL 4 campaign for 3-5 character.. Once it is Approved i will be posting info... let me know if there is anyone interested.. (Character levels 3-5 i believe)..
mucki 11-10-07, 08:16 AM	I added 2 ECL3 characters and an CR1 agent to the playtest. Anyone up for a challenge ?
Rauul 11-10-07, 08:36 AM	I added 2 ECL3 characters and an CR1 agent to the playtest. Anyone up for a challenge ? like you need to ask that LOL
mucki 11-10-07, 08:51 AM	Right, let me rephrase that: I know Rauul is dying to try out the new community challenges, but is there a 3rd person so that we can actually do it ?
Rauul 11-10-07, 09:23 AM	Right, let me rephrase that: I know Rauul is dying to try out the new community challenges, but is there a 3rd person so that we can actually do it ? Na.. not dying...Community would be nice for 2 of my characters... the other 3 would be guild builds.. But yea i like challenges and new things... would even love to Playtest new Arena maps.. Like water maps, or a Mountain map..
mucki 11-10-07, 09:34 AM	Na.. not dying... You are hurting our chances of success. I already had buttons and stickers prepared for the "Save Rauul from certain Death, play a Community Challenge!" campaign ;-)
McJarvis 11-10-07, 09:41 AM	I have a working phpBB3 that I can offer. I made it to be able to PbP with one of my TT groups. I modified it a bit, so you can do wiki style links (like [[word]]) to a connected mediawiki for presenting game related info in an easier to look up manner. If you need a room then I can gladly offer one. The only caveat is that everything except your subforum would have german content (the phpBB3 itself is multilingual, so that might be only a minor issue). I'm not too hip on technical jargon nowadays, but that sounds cool[whatever it all meant]. I'm willing to do the campaign, but it seems the primary issue is *too* much interest. I've got: Hirumajoe TelinArtho lonewolf Eamane Taureus_Drakken MWB Raaul Muki(?) All as interested. I may hold a lottery of some sort...ideally the campaign will only have 3-5 players. Some background information: The campaign takes place in my own special campaign setting, which I won't get too much into since I know too many details tend to bore players. I'm going to give you several different "layers" of information, so any character you happen to play will have a basis of knowledge on what they should be doing//know in society. Factoids: 1) For all intensive purposes, Deism is the way of life in this campaign. One all powerful(non-statted) God made everything, and then left things to thier own devices. Several more powerful entities have since placed themselves in the position of "gods"- but if any of them actually claimed to be the "God", it is suspected that a divine war would break out- possibly with the return of the one true God. All of this is common knowledge- but perceptions of it vary. IE- Some people may think the gods are for the best, some people may think they are not. Some people hold the stance that even though the one true God exists- it is essentially the same as him not existing since he does not interact with his creation anymore. Players are very free to decide anything they want in this regard. Next level down. 2) The planar makeup involves refracted planar light. There is one "superplane" that projects all of this light- and all of the sub-planes(the only ones that can actually be travelled to) are essentially filters that catch the light and let other kinds pass through. The effect is largely on the magic system- the act of casting spells is actually the act of "blocking light" to the material plane from various other planes(elemental, aligned, etc) So a fireball spell blocks light from every plane but the plane of fire. Next level down. 3) The material plane has one huge continent with a major metropolis smack dab in the center. This city covers an area of approximately 400 square miles, and a census has never been taken. There are several small cities elsewhere on the continent- and the continent is very diverse otherwise[ there is a large mountain range in the southwest, a desert type area to the north of that, a large forest to the east of the mountains, a great plains on the east portion of the city, etc, etc] There are rumored to be small islands elsewhere in the world- but other than a relatively small one off the west coast of the main continent, none have been found. Note that the primary method of travel through this continent is by river- for nearly thirty(!!) different streams and rivers travel through this center city, all weaving out towards the main ocean. next level down 4) Centers of learning are evenly distributed throughout the land, in the forms of either large colleges or small dojo-esque buildings with a "master" of whatever combat-oriented art there is. Most fighting styles comprise of "feat chains"- so adventurers are usually somewhat feared for their erratic feat choices(ie- bizarre fighting styles) finally, your level. 5) Our adventure begins in the far south edge of the island in a sea-faring town called Nod, where rumors of piracy from the coast have steadily drawn adventurers seeking to make a name for themselves. Character creation guidelines: It'll be a pretty cut-and-dried 36 pt buy, using the SRD as a base. Additional 3.5 campaign non-specific books are fine- but I'll only be drawing stuff for encounters from things the party has accessed. So you'll face SRD monsters/NPC's/Challenges unless you draw from another book- then that book will be added to the tools I use to create encounters.
Hirumajoe 11-10-07, 10:21 AM	I'm not too hip on technical jargon nowadays, but that sounds cool[whatever it all meant]. I'm willing to do the campaign, but it seems the primary issue is *too* much interest. I've got: Hirumajoe TelinArtho lonewolf Eamane Taureus_Drakken MWB Raaul Muki(?) All as interested. I may hold a lottery of some sort...ideally the campaign will only have 3-5 players. Well, you might be able to remove MWB from that list. He said he'd prefer a TT game to a PbP game. I've talked to my wife, and she's willing to let MWB come over as long as she gets to play in the campaign. Of course, that assumes I can come up with a campaign...
McJarvis 11-10-07, 10:28 AM	Well, you might be able to remove MWB from that list. He said he'd prefer a TT game to a PbP game. I've talked to my wife, and she's willing to let MWB come over as long as she gets to play in the campaign. Of course, that assumes I can come up with a campaign... You could just use the same campaign every time like I do :-) I swear I've run this adventure four or five times- just switching the players every time. ;) [With minor fixes/edits/tweaks]
Hirumajoe 11-10-07, 10:35 AM	You could just use the same campaign every time like I do :-) I swear I've run this adventure four or five times- just switching the players every time. ;) [With minor fixes/edits/tweaks] Hmm... I think I've lost the notes from my last campaign somewhere in the move from Boston to Washington state, back to Boston, then out to California. :) Though I suppose I remember the plot well enough. Then again, that was a break from my usual campaigns (was designed for high to epic levels and started at ECL 14 - since I'd never run or had a character get that high, and I was curious what they were capable of). I did pick up the Eberon book out of curiosity last year, so may I'll leaf through that for ideas. Anyone ever use that setting? Any good?
McJarvis 11-10-07, 10:37 AM	Hmm... I think I've lost the notes from my last campaign somewhere in the move from Boston to Washington state, back to Boston, then out to California. :) Though I suppose I remember the plot well enough. Then again, that was a break from my usual campaigns (was designed for high to epic levels and started at ECL 14 - since I'd never run or had a character get that high, and I was curious what they were capable of). I did pick up the Eberon book out of curiosity last year, so may I'll leaf through that for ideas. Anyone ever use that setting? Any good? I really like it :) Much better than FR due to the PC-oriented nature of it. (rather than NPC)
Eamane 11-10-07, 11:33 AM	@McJarvis Sounds like an interesting setting. I'm getting a Discworld vibe, but serious instead of inane, which is more fitting to D&D I'd imagine. Cool though. Re: Eberron Yeah, the campaign setting focuses on PCs and sets it up so they should always be more important than random NPCs. Then every splat book for it introduces more and more epic NPCs (Undying Court, Vampire Kings, Dragons, Cult of Vol anyone?) that run everything, much like FR :doh: But if you ignore that part, its really cool.
mucki 11-10-07, 12:03 PM	Well, I am happy to setup the forum, and help out with any technical difficulties, but I don't think I actually have enough time to actively play in the campaign. So don't count me in as a player. Anyway, I have setup a forum for you to use at: http://mucki.hlw.co.at/~webrpg/phpBB3/index.php The forum has rather low restrictions on posting. This means you can post without registering new users (but I still recommend that you do). If you need any help or have feature requests, please feel free to PM/email me.
whitebaron 11-10-07, 12:19 PM	rules question: in the rules of gladius, skill packages "set trap" it is mentioned, that you can avoid the trap if you pass the dc of the trap with a take 10. so much is clear, it also says: A character who has found the trap (Search) can also avoid the trap if the total of his Balance, Climb, Jump, and Swim skill modifiers exceed the Disable Device DC of the trap by 10 or more. is this meant you actually get a search check, or just that you only defeat the traps search dc as specified before?
mucki 11-10-07, 12:19 PM	I have a question about borrowed items: In out last fight, I took 2 potions of Prot. from Evil from Falko and used one. I want to buy some and give two back to him during our downtime. How do i note that on the sheet ? And also: how do I sell stuff ? Just note it in the sales block of the accounting and get back half price ?
lonewolf 11-10-07, 12:27 PM	I did pick up the Eberon book out of curiosity last year, so may I'll leaf through that for ideas. Anyone ever use that setting? Any good? Yes. It takes some adjustment time to get used to it, but thats mainly because it has a completly fresh take on many classical things in D&D. Religion for example is handled extremely different and much better than in all other Settings I know. Of the many source books that came out there many are very good, most are good and only one which I consider bad(Secrets of Xen`drik(dont get me wrong, I love the continent, but the book was rather meh)) Then every splat book for it introduces more and more epic NPCs (Undying Court, Vampire Kings, Dragons, Cult of Vol anyone?) that run everything, much like FR :doh: But if you ignore that part, its really cool. I disagree. 1) All those examples of yours were already in the Campaign Setting, there was only more information given about them in additional sourcebooks. 2) Of those four examples one is a very clear and good to use villain(Blood of Vol/Emerald Claw). The Lich Vol will never ever go out and seek to destroy the PCs herself unless they are of such a high level and that way can pose such a huge noisance to her organization that they can handle her. But this encounter should probably the finale of a LOOOONG term campaign. Having an epic enemy is not a bad thing at all. Having an epic good guy who could solve all the problems of the world for you without any effort is. 3) The Vampire King isnt that epic at all (CR16) and is such a great example of shades of grey in Eberron: A bad guy using all of his might ruthlessly to do the right thing. He also isnt the type of NPC wandering around and doing the stuff he needs done himself. There is far too much risk that anyone will find out about his "condition". 4) The Undying Court is centered on Aerenal. They cannot, or at least will not leave the Island. I fail how they can destroy the chance for PCs to be the heroes of the story. 5) The Dragons are a bit more difficult. Yes they could unleash their power and destroy the Quori rule in Riedra. Yes they could start a crusade against the Blood of Vol and extinct the organization(Vol herself might be crafty enough to escape and hide though). But the truth is that they simply dont care that much if a continent of lesser beeings is enslaved by the Quori. Some individual Dragons might oppose the Blood of Vol, but its far from beeing a united front. For the most part they care mainly about their prophecy so its really always up to the DM what they choose to care about and what not. I´ve just picked up Dragons of Eberron and there are enough reasons in there why dragons are so distant to Khorvaire. They have enough problems of their own(rogue dragons, Tiamats corruption) that noone else cares about, so it is very unlikely that the Players will be able to find a dragon and get him to solve their problems for them.
Eamane 11-10-07, 12:44 PM	Re: Eberron A valid point that there is a difference between epic good guys and epic bad guys, but it still grates with the promise that the PCs are/will be the most important people in Eberron. Pretty much no matter where you go in Eberron, there is some all or nearly all-powerful being who can smack you down if you draw attention to yourself. When I read the mission statement for the setting, I thought that was one of the things they would avoid, s'all. Despite this concern of mine it is a great setting, probably the most interesting one to come along since Dark Sun.
lonewolf 11-10-07, 01:38 PM	@Vath: Looking through the possible challenges for Sam vs Psibeast, the monster hunt looks most interesting to me. what do you think?
McJarvis 11-10-07, 01:47 PM	@McJarvis Sounds like an interesting setting. I'm getting a Discworld vibe, but serious instead of inane, which is more fitting to D&D I'd imagine. Cool though. You'll have to understand my utter confusion when I look that up in wikipedia and get... set on the Discworld, a flat world balanced on the backs of four elephants which are in turn standing on the back of a giant turtle O_O ??? My primary inspiration for the magic mechanic was actually Full Metal Alchemist & the Alchemist that worked with light. I thought the episode was so tastefully artsy that it would work really well as an interpretation of a magic system.
Vathelokai 11-10-07, 01:49 PM	@Vath: Looking through the possible challenges for Sam vs Psibeast, the monster hunt looks most interesting to me. what do you think? Sounds good. :plotting: :evillaugh
Eamane 11-10-07, 01:55 PM	You'll have to understand my utter confusion when I look that up in wikipedia and get... set on the Discworld, a flat world balanced on the backs of four elephants which are in turn standing on the back of a giant turtle O_O ??? My primary inspiration for the magic mechanic was actually Full Metal Alchemist & the Alchemist that worked with light. I thought the episode was so tastefully artsy that it would work really well as an interpretation of a magic system. Well. More the description of the material plane as being one big continent with a giant city in the middle; but without any particularly advanced (vis a vis industrial revolution) technology. though you didn't say it didn't have any such technology, I suppose I just assumed given the lack of mention. Also, the description of the gods strikes a cross reference; Gods in Discworld are not the God and are usually careful enough not to claim they are. There is an exception, but it's uncertain if he really exists. But your world is clearly not as whimsical, hence the 'serious' proposition. The Magic bit didn't really remind of anything in particular, though it sounds like an interesting concept. Sorry for the confusion.
McJarvis 11-10-07, 01:59 PM	@Yuki: Wow! I now understand what you were talking about with the wiki- that's _really_ cool. It'll help keep NPC's straight...very nice indeed.
McJarvis 11-10-07, 02:03 PM	@E: Heh- I saw that the first book was called the "colour of magic" and I just assumed that was what made you think of it. The story of how I got one central city is actually kind of funny. When I first ran this campaign I didn't have a clear-cut idea of what I wanted out of it, so I just made this city & named it "Big City" and went from there. Every time I had an adventure and I needed a new type of land(forest, mountains, etc) I just said to the party "ok, you're going to the (insert new direction here) & gonna find the (insert desired landscape here)". The first campaign went so-so with that approach, but I decided to keep the resulting map. From there I needed a reason why the only city would be in the center of the continent instead of a port(like most big cities) - and I thought of Paris. So thus the idea of lots of rivers going through the continent was born....
Rauul 11-10-07, 02:04 PM	@Vath: Looking through the possible challenges for Sam vs Psibeast, the monster hunt looks most interesting to me. what do you think? hmm I was acually thinking... Monster takedown... or King of the Hill.. for you 2 lvl 13's..
Vathelokai 11-10-07, 02:13 PM	I don't think a ghost vs someone polymorphed into an incoporeal creature would work too well for king of the hill. But the monster challenges, any of them, would work.
whitebaron 11-10-07, 02:13 PM	@mcj: look up ankh-morpork. you'll understand some of he similarities, then. :)
Rauul 11-10-07, 02:41 PM	I don't think a ghost vs someone polymorphed into an incoporeal creature would work too well for king of the hill. But the monster challenges, any of them, would work. Well for Capture the Flag.. Incorporeal characters better have allies.. or they auto loose.. as for King of the hill... Well incorporeal battle would be to capture the hill i guess... would basically be Psibeast vs Sam to control the hill.. Would be interesting.. Especially if there was another ECL 13 in there.. (since most challenges are 3-5 characters)
mucki 11-10-07, 02:54 PM	@Yuki: Wow! I now understand what you were talking about with the wiki- that's _really_ cool. It'll help keep NPC's straight...very nice indeed. Hmm, did you mean me ? as in Mucki ? Anyway, you are welcome :P
McJarvis 11-10-07, 02:55 PM	Hmm, did you mean me ? as in Mucki ? Anyway, you are welcome :P Typo! I get alot of those :embarrass At least no one saw that I accidently made that city four thousand square miles big the first time. [holy cow!]
Rauul 11-10-07, 02:59 PM	Typo! I get alot of those :embarrass At least no one saw that I accidently made that city four thousand square miles big the first time. [holy cow!] oh i saw that... was debating if a city could actually be the size of 1/2 the USA or not... knowing you... i wasn't gonna argue LOL
mucki 11-10-07, 03:17 PM	Thinking about it, 4000 square miles is not that much. When you consider that the people lack the technology to build really high buildings, and probably depend on lots of farming and animals, then cities would take a lot more space then they do now (per person). I looked up (completely at random) Lawrenceville, Ohio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrenceville%2C_Ohio) to see what a typical small town has as population density and they have about 2000 people per square mile. Which would put your world capital at 8 million people. Very large for a fantasy setting, but definitely not outrageous imho.
McJarvis 11-10-07, 03:19 PM	Thinking about it, 4000 square miles is not that much. When you consider that the people lack the technology to build really high buildings, and probably depend on lots of farming and animals, then cities would take a lot more space then they do now (per person). I looked up (completely at random) Lawrenceville, Ohio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrenceville%2C_Ohio) to see what a typical small town has as population density and they have about 2000 people per square mile. Which would put your world capital at 8 million people. Very large for a fantasy setting, but definitely not outrageous imho. It just seems like a city larger than the state of PA is a bit large to be considered one continuous city.
mucki 11-10-07, 03:22 PM	I would say so, but it seems the state of alaska disagrees (http://www.dced.state.ak.us/oed/student_info/learn/aboutgeography.htm) :) (scroll all the way down) --edit and it has a whopping 8986 people living in it. compare this (http://www.weirdasianews.com/2007/07/29/1000-person-worlds-largest-restroom/) :)
McJarvis 11-10-07, 03:40 PM	I would say so, but it seems the state of alaska disagrees (http://www.dced.state.ak.us/oed/student_info/learn/aboutgeography.htm) :) (scroll all the way down) --edit and it has a whopping 8986 people living in it. compare this (http://www.weirdasianews.com/2007/07/29/1000-person-worlds-largest-restroom/) :) Well, I live in Arlington, VA- which is actually a city AND a county, so I decided to do some checking. Turns out this city is the same way. The largest city in the US that isn't a county as well(these structures are actually called consolidated city-counties) is Oklahoma City, which is 607 square miles. I believe Tokyo must be pretty close to the largest city area-wise(though that's just a guess because of its population)- but even then, it's only 844 square miles. (of course, this figure will change depending on what you count as "in the city"...)
whitebaron 11-10-07, 03:58 PM	the usa and canada have ways to split cities into lots of cities, which make them pretty small compared to others. take L.A. - officially, its the second biggest city in the usa, and they give it official figures of about 4 mio people. they simply don't count them other 15 million living around and still seeing themselves as L.A. actually, tokyo is pretty small. that's why they have to build high towers and off-shore to grow the city further.
McJarvis 11-10-07, 04:06 PM	the usa and canada have ways to split cities into lots of cities, which make them pretty small compared to others. take L.A. - officially, its the second biggest city in the usa, and they give it official figures of about 4 mio people. they simply don't count them other 15 million living around and still seeing themselves as L.A. NYC is the same way. If you count the "surrounding" residents who commute into the city every day, you end up with a figure of something like 25 million people. RE: Tokyo: It may stack up tall towers, but it still has almost three times the population of NYC. That makes sense given that they have approximately the same land mass. [I think NYC's area might be a _little_ bigger]
hogarth 11-11-07, 03:59 AM	Do dire bats have low-light vision? Most creatures of the Animal type do, but it doesn't say so in the monster description.
templer10 11-11-07, 04:06 AM	Do dire bats have low-light vision? Most creatures of the Animal type do, but it doesn't say so in the monster description. Yes - check the Animal traits in the SRD.
hogarth 11-11-07, 04:39 AM	Yes - check the Animal traits in the SRD. Traits An animal possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry). * Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal). * Low-light vision. Just to clarify, my question is this: Does failing to mention low-light vision in a creature's entry fall under the category of "unless otherwise noted in a creature's entry"?
whitebaron 11-11-07, 04:46 AM	Just to clarify, my question is this: Does failing to mention low-light vision in a creature's entry fall under the category of "unless otherwise noted in a creature's entry"? no, a creature has all its type's traits unless it is specifically countered.
whitebaron 11-11-07, 04:56 PM	got a question concerning a leopard and it's rake attacks: a leopard charges. he gets a full attack including two rake attacks. this means to me, that he gets: 1d20+6(bite)+2(charge) 1d20+1(claw)+2(charge) 1d20+1(claw)+2(charge) 1d20+6(rake)+2(charge)-5(no multiattack) 1d20+6(rake)+2(charge)-5(no multiattack) if bite hits: opposed grab. + rake? does he actually get those rake attacks twice if/after improved grab hits?
templer10 11-11-07, 05:09 PM	got a question concerning a leopard and it's rake attacks: a leopard charges. he gets a full attack including two rake attacks. this means to me, that he gets: 1d20+6(bite)+2(charge) 1d20+1(claw)+2(charge) 1d20+1(claw)+2(charge) 1d20+6(rake)+2(charge)-5(no multiattack) 1d20+6(rake)+2(charge)-5(no multiattack) if bite hits: opposed grab. + rake? does he actually get those rake attacks twice if/after improved grab hits? he doesnt get rake twice since rake is normaly done in a round it already starts grappling - check the "rake" speciel attack description in the SRD. on the other hand - Rake doesnt suffer -5 - since it spesificly manetion the bonus to hit it gets.
Eamane 11-11-07, 05:10 PM	got a question concerning a leopard and it's rake attacks: a leopard charges. he gets a full attack including two rake attacks. this means to me, that he gets: 1d20+6(bite)+2(charge) 1d20+1(claw)+2(charge) 1d20+1(claw)+2(charge) 1d20+6(rake)+2(charge)-5(no multiattack) 1d20+6(rake)+2(charge)-5(no multiattack) if bite hits: opposed grab. + rake? does he actually get those rake attacks twice if/after improved grab hits? I believe so, yes. Rakes are a little silly and tend to add up quickly; especially if the animal gets them multiple ways. See: Shaugin, who can get rakes while swimming, as well as grappling. If they are swimming and grappling, they get lots of rakes. A were-leopard shaugin would have an obscene number of rakes while charging into a grapple in the water.
whitebaron 11-11-07, 05:18 PM	with my rolls, it didn't make a difference. final question on my fight concerning energy retort: inzin was brought to -2 hp with energy retort, while he killed felice. i don't know when exactly energy retort happens rules-wise. you can argue both ways: it hits after the first attack made, so inzin is dead and felice lives. it hits after felice is dead, and is a draw. i believe #2 to be in order.
Eamane 11-11-07, 05:21 PM	with my rolls, it didn't make a difference. final question on my fight concerning energy retort: inzin was brought to -2 hp with energy retort, while he killed felice. i don't know when exactly energy retort happens rules-wise. you can argue both ways: it hits after the first attack made, so inzin is dead and felice lives. it hits after felice is dead, and is a draw. i believe #2 to be in order. Energy Retort only triggers on successful attacks, so it goes off part-way through or after Inzin's action. Due to it's wording it cannot possibly happen before Inzin's action (unlike say, a readied action), thus Inzin is at postive hp when he performs the standard action; so it's not a strenuous action. EDIT: Wait, clarification is needed. Felice was killed by a series of attacks; i.e: more than one successful attack? Energy Retort sounds like it is able to interrupt full attacks to strike back, which could change the results.
templer10 11-11-07, 05:24 PM	with my rolls, it didn't make a difference. final question on my fight concerning energy retort: inzin was brought to -2 hp with energy retort, while he killed felice. i don't know when exactly energy retort happens rules-wise. you can argue both ways: it hits after the first attack made, so inzin is dead and felice lives. it hits after felice is dead, and is a draw. i believe #2 to be in order. How dead he was? if it was not below -10 you need to do a bleed out roll. if it was -10 or below the guy on -2 won.
whitebaron 11-11-07, 05:26 PM	@eamane: i just noticed that the first strike already kills felice. so, yes, both are dying which brings me to - @t10: is this somewhere in the rules? i always believed below 0 = dead. edit: from the rules Defeat: For all battle types, a character is considered defeated when it reaches a state in which the character can in no possible way harm its opponent, that neither the character, nor allies, nor the passage of time, nor the cessation of concentration of the opponent, is capable of reversing. When defeated, any surviving allies of the defeated character are instantly removed from the battle. so i'd call it a draw.
templer10 11-11-07, 05:30 PM	@eamane: i just noticed that the first strike already kills felice. so, yes, both are dying which brings me to - @t10: is this somewhere in the rules? i always believed below 0 = dead. -10 is dead, -1 to -9 is dying, In a FFA someone dying is removed from it unless he has an ally that can bring him back above 0, in a 2 men fight - in a situation that both goes below 0 at teh same time - something like you described you do a bleed out - i.e. roll each round for stabilization until one die or stabilize. don't think it was ever put in the rules - the idia however is to avoid draws whenever possible (until now there is only 1 draw on record i think). EDIT - That defenitation for defeated was created fairly recently (couple of monthes) Iam fairly certain it wasn't meant for a 1V1 situation when both are dying but you might want to ask an elder.
whitebaron 11-11-07, 05:34 PM	i'll post up the fight and move the questions to the courtroom.
Salrantol 11-11-07, 05:49 PM	so i'd call it a draw.I believe you are correct.
TelinArtho 11-11-07, 08:37 PM	I'll speak up now to give an answer - it is only a draw in a 1v1 when both players are reduced to -10 simultaneously. Whatever the description is now - you should be rolling the bleed out rolls if they are both in negatives.
MindWandererB 11-11-07, 09:04 PM	Important Update: I'm going to be moving starting Tuesday night. Obviously, that means no internet for me, and I'm going to be plenty busy packing until then. I'm going to try to set up new avatar accounts before I have to pack up my PC. If I can manage that, Telin or Sauro can cover for the week. If not, you have a week off. Important Update to the Important Update: GMs, It has come to our attention that shared accounts are starting to crop up amongst the general patrons. In the past, we've allowed shared accounts for GMs to ease their moderation duties, but with the scaling back of your tool access plus the migration to the new login system, shared accounts are no longer the convenience they once were. Further, since areas of the site and some functionality will become accessible only to paid accounts, sharing accounts becomes both a security risk and a liability. To date, nothing untoward has happened with a shared account, and we want to avoid that potentiality. If someone were to violate the Code of Conduct with a shared account, we would have no choice but to warn all connected individuals, as there would be no way to verify the specific individual responsible. For those of you familiar with our "three strikes" system, this could potentially result in the loss of ALL of someone's screen names and access to site features, including paid ones. This is not something we want to happen, and I'm sure none of you do either. For that reason, we are asking that all GMs discontinue using shared accounts. If we encounter an active shared account, it will be banned. Please understand that this is not a punishment for the GMs; we appreciate all the hard work you put into your respective forums, and we want to help make that job as easy as possible. However, we have to take the welfare of the entire community into consideration before that of a community subset, and we cannot justify the double standard of allowing shared accounts for GMs but not other patrons, especially given the reasons I outlined above. If you have any questions about this policy, please feel free to contact Customer Service (http://wizards.custhelp.com). Thank You.This effectively means that the Pitlords account is dead for its intended purpose. It will never be able to be shared again, and creating a new shared account to replace it is impossible. Pairings will therefore have to be suspended this week, although if there is continued interest in a playtest fight, I'm sure someone can arrange it. Meanwhile, I'm trying to reach some sort of compromise with the Powers that Be about how to handle this in the future, but I'm not hopeful. The best I can hope for is that GMs will eventually have their mod powers restored, in which case I can designate a co-GM or two and they'll be able to carry on. If that doesn't happen, we'll need to come up with some sort of creative solution as to how to do pairings without editing the roster or checking Pitlords' PM box.
Hirumajoe 11-12-07, 12:02 AM	@MWB: Well, thats a less than helpful change to policy. As for creative bookkeeping, you could always just place the roster in the FoTW or the battles thread each week. @McJarvis: Given this is going to be an off week, what kind of characters are you looking for in the campaign? Gives me something to think about over the next few days. I presume starting ECL 1? Are you looking for most good/neutral, any alignment, mostly evil? What kind of motivations are we looking at, do you need easy to attach plot hook points built into the characters? (In which case a somewhat more indepth background is handy). Even if you think it bores most players. Also, if I were to consider a ranger, are there any pointers on types of monsters likely to be seen (if you're willing to divulge that much?). (Not that I'm necessarily leaning towards a ranger, but it useful in build decisions in general). Level of difficulty and RP vs fighting: Is this going to require CoCo levels of optimization? Is this mostly going to be fighting centric or do expect large sections of RP. Also, would non-combat skills such as diplomacy and search be of major use? Thanks. And here's to hoping I get in if there's a lottery. :)
MindWandererB 11-12-07, 01:15 AM	@MWB: Well, thats a less than helpful change to policy. As for creative bookkeeping, you could always just place the roster in the FoTW or the battles thread each week.I thought of that, but the ready-crawler and pairingsmaker parse the one in the Characters thread. The loss of those would cost massive amounts of time. @whitebaron/Macbrea/anyone else who knows php: Is there any way the spiders could be recoded to look in a more dynamic location, e.g. a thread labelled with the month and day? Or to take the thread number as input and spit out the appropriate results? Or heck, copy/paste the entire roster as input?
TheMagister 11-12-07, 03:33 AM	Hi everyone. I miss you. Not having access on the work computer sure is a bummer. {sigh} Barely have time to participate in the campaign, and I haven't the slightest idea what I'm gonna do after it's over. Anyway -- Nice to see McJ (long live the Duet!) and Stormwind and Luni back around. Too bad I can't come out and play for now (or the forseeable future). Have fun for me! :allalone: TM
mucki 11-12-07, 04:37 AM	I thought of that, but the ready-crawler and pairingsmaker parse the one in the Characters thread. The loss of those would cost massive amounts of time. @whitebaron/Macbrea/anyone else who knows php: Is there any way the spiders could be recoded to look in a more dynamic location, e.g. a thread labelled with the month and day? Or to take the thread number as input and spit out the appropriate results? Or heck, copy/paste the entire roster as input? I don't know how the spiders work atm, but making the URL dynamic doesn't seem to be problematic. That means: * thread id should be easy, since the final url can easily be built from that * by date might be harder since the script would need to do a search first to find the correct thread, but not unthinkable.
whitebaron 11-12-07, 06:04 AM	threadid is likely how it works today. so giving that dynamically should be about 5 minutes of change. as i think macbrea/mal-2/telin someone has access to the source, it could be done quickly. which brings me to another thought of mine: care to change the roster to another php application which updates itself? and last afterthought: does coco intend to stay at wizards even if they shut everything down you used except for forums accounts?
McJarvis 11-12-07, 09:23 AM	If that doesn't happen, we'll need to come up with some sort of creative solution as to how to do pairings without editing the roster or checking Pitlords' PM box. We could just set up a webpage somewhere that has the pairings and character roster(that the GM and whoever the backups have access to)
McJarvis 11-12-07, 09:41 AM	@MWB: Well, thats a less than helpful change to policy. As for creative bookkeeping, you could always just place the roster in the FoTW or the battles thread each week. The problem lies in how we label the characters section of the site: we need to indicate whether each gladiator is active or not, and update their rankings //add remove tags as they progress in fights. [and move them up and down the ECL list] I presume starting ECL 1? Yup! Are you looking for most good/neutral, any alignment, mostly evil? What kind of motivations are we looking at, do you need easy to attach plot hook points built into the characters? (In which case a somewhat more indepth background is handy). Even if you think it bores most players. I almost went into a long explination of the campaign here- but I'll save that for the forum that has been set up for us. Essentially, I like to adapt to whatever my players enjoy doing- but I do like to enforce that everyone needs to RP characters with similar goals [money, power, general good] My ideal party roles for the alignments are- Good- Fighting against the general evil out there in the world. There is a corruptive force that is slowly overtaking all the lands, and someone needs to take a stand against it. Neutral- Mercenaries for hire- or just keeping the balance. There are many opposing forces out there, and whenever one of them gets too strong oppression and tyranny are the result. These characters cry when goblin babies die! Evil- Robbery campaigns[Oceans Eleven style?] and other evil-esque type campaigns fall here. It's kind of tricky, though- since at my table tops my evil campaigns tend to degrade into backstabbing for treasure.... Also, if I were to consider a ranger, are there any pointers on types of monsters likely to be seen (if you're willing to divulge that much?). (Not that I'm necessarily leaning towards a ranger, but it useful in build decisions in general). Sample threats of this continent include: Giants and ogres that reside in the mountains. Giant and strange animals that roam the plains, hunted by the barbarian tribes that reside there. The occasional undead hoarde flowing forth from some necromancer's castle. All of the classical evil humanoids[Goblins, Gnolls, etc] Extraplanar beings either summoned via dark portals or who have "broken" into the material plane via a weakening in the filter-membrane of their own plane. Essentially- almost anything in the MM. Level of difficulty and RP vs fighting: Is this going to require CoCo levels of optimization? Is this mostly going to be fighting centric or do expect large sections of RP. Also, would non-combat skills such as diplomacy and search be of major use? Essentially, the world is set up to respond to how you RP. If you don't design CoCo-type optimized characters, then don't start fights at the local barscene. If you're optimized for CoCo[ie-combat oriented]- don't go to political debates. I guess the gist of my post is this- there IS an overarcing storyline going on in the world. How much of a part of it you are is really up to the party as a whole. [Though don't be fooled- you can't escape existing in the world around you] EDIT- Regarding skills- there will be traps. There will be kings. Make of this what you will :)
McJarvis 11-12-07, 09:45 AM	Are the deadlines for this week's fights extended then? I wouldn't mind waiting 'till tuesday night to run mine :)
Macbrea 11-12-07, 09:49 AM	I have to glance at the source I will this evening after I finish my fight.
hogarth 11-12-07, 10:06 AM	Are the deadlines for this week's fights extended then? I wouldn't mind waiting 'till tuesday night to run mine :) Hence my comment about waiting until Wednesday morning to find out the results. Colour me not surprised. :P Remember -- you said that fights take you only about 30 minutes to run (on average).
McJarvis 11-12-07, 10:13 AM	Hence my comment about waiting until Wednesday morning to find out the results. Colour me not surprised. :P Remember -- you said that fights take you only about 30 minutes to run (on average). That's true- but I have a pretty active social life. For instance- after work today(5pm) I'm driving into downtown DC to meet up with some friends[which is about an hour and a half drive]. I won't get back until midnightish. So instead of running the fight during my lunchbreak today, if I could get confirmation that I could do it tomorrow night that'd be swell. (Note that I'm only inquiring because of the extraordinary circumstances of no pairings for this coming week :P - I think it's pretty reasonable to want to spend the time I usually spend on character maintenance on pitlording instead)
templer10 11-12-07, 10:13 AM	Hence my comment about waiting until Wednesday morning to find out the results. Colour me not surprised. :P Remember -- you said that fights take you only about 30 minutes to run (on average). Speaking of that - dont you have a 100 round long fight to run...;)
whitebaron 11-12-07, 10:18 AM	I have to glance at the source I will this evening after I finish my fight. you can send it to me if you want to (icq), my evening is much sooner than yours. ;)
hogarth 11-12-07, 10:23 AM	Speaking of that - dont you have a 100 round long fight to run...;) Today's a bank holiday; hopefully 8 hours will be enough time. :weep:
Stormwind 11-12-07, 10:47 AM	Hi everyone. I miss you. Not having access on the work computer sure is a bummer. {sigh} Barely have time to participate in the campaign, and I haven't the slightest idea what I'm gonna do after it's over. Anyway -- Nice to see McJ (long live the Duet!) and Stormwind and Luni back around. Too bad I can't come out and play for now (or the forseeable future). Have fun for me! :allalone: TM Hi TM, Good to hear from you. Would be cool if you could come out and play ;) ... but I well understand that real life can make that challenging if not actually impossible. Hopefully playing here some more will be plausible in the not toooo distant future, regardless we'll try and have fun for you until such a time and you can join in yourself :D Storm
McJarvis 11-12-07, 11:36 AM	Google Enlightenment of the day: Lots of people use the name McJarvis for usernames(hence my using various variations of it like my AIM name)- but if you do an image search for "McJarvis" on google you will get PAGES and PAGES of CoCo material. In fact, as far as I can see the you more or less only get hits from gleemax's forum! (other than two on the first page...) :)
Taureus_Drakken 11-12-07, 11:56 AM	I have a question that made me stop running y second fight for this week. How does the Scent (Ex) ability interact with Invisibility (from a spell)? The SRD gives two answers: A creature with the scent ability can detect an invisible creature as it would a visible one. The creature detects another creature’s presence but not its specific location. Noting the direction of the scent is a move action. If it moves within 5 feet of the scent’s source, the creature can pinpoint that source. So if a creature with scent passes within 5 feet of someone who is invisible, do they automatically pinpoint his/her location? Or do I need to roll Spot checks against the stationary, invisible character? Thanks in advance! @McJ: I am still interested in the campaign, so keep a spot open for me. Once I am done with this last fight, I will go back through and read everything over again that you posted relevant to the campaign, and get a character concept going. ~Taureus~
Durzulgor 11-12-07, 12:02 PM	Greetings, grand coliseum masters! I've finally found my way here and gone throug the quick-start-guide. Now that I've finally created my first character, I'd like to ask for your help and advice: Here he is! (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=14312161&posted=1#post14312161) Have I done everything right? Durz
McJarvis 11-12-07, 12:07 PM	I have a question that made me stop running y second fight for this week. How does the Scent (Ex) ability interact with Invisibility (from a spell)? The SRD gives two answers: So if a creature with scent passes within 5 feet of someone who is invisible, do they automatically pinpoint his/her location? Or do I need to roll Spot checks against the stationary, invisible character? They autopin-point, which means they know the 5ft square the invisible creature is in. I'm not sure if the spot checks can negate the conceilment issue(I don't think they can)- so the scent probably did the job of the spot check already.
TelinArtho 11-12-07, 12:13 PM	Yeah - scent auto-pinpoints, but does not negate the concealment.
Taureus_Drakken 11-12-07, 12:15 PM	They autopin-point, which means they know the 5ft square the invisible creature is in. I'm not sure if the spot checks can negate the conceilment issue(I don't think they can)- so the scent probably did the job of the spot check already. Okay. I was checking Scent after I started running the fight (got to the 8th round and realized I had made a mistake). ~Taureus~
TelinArtho 11-12-07, 12:20 PM	Greetings, grand coliseum masters! I've finally found my way here and gone throug the quick-start-guide. Now that I've finally created my first character, I'd like to ask for your help and advice: Here he is! (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=14312161&posted=1#post14312161) Have I done everything right? Durz Nope - but we all make mistakes. The biggest issue for you at the moment are the feats. Mental Resistance requires a Will Save of +2. According to your HP, you took Barbarian at first level - so you can't take Mental Resistance as your Human feat (which needs to be taken at first level). You could fix this by taking Cleric as your first level, but your HP would take a bit of a hit (a net loss of 2hp). Other than that - mostly the sheet could be cleaned up by removing the parentheses around the words in the first block (they aren't needed). I do notice that your encumbrance mentions "drop tower shield -45lbs" - but I see no tower shield in your equipment. As far as the concept goes - you are a glass cannon. The invisibility might be enough to keep you alive for early levels, but I certainly wouldn't want to be counting on it for later levels. Regardless - good luck and welcome to the CoCo.
Eamane 11-12-07, 12:26 PM	Greetings, grand coliseum masters! I've finally found my way here and gone throug the quick-start-guide. Now that I've finally created my first character, I'd like to ask for your help and advice: Here he is! (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=14312161&posted=1#post14312161) Have I done everything right? Durz The ('s and )'s in the default character sheet are ornamental; like in syntax descriptions for programs, they are just there to show you where to put the input, not to be included with the input. So Gender and Race: (Male) (Human) can be Gender and Race: Male, Human The second version uses less characters than the first, which is important as your character goes up in levels. Your alignment should explicitly state True Neutral. The Mental Resistance feat cannot be taken if you have access to powers. You don't need to denote which level of a class your skill levels came from. In fact, I would suggest against doing so as throwing more numbers in there becomes confusing. 5 (Barbarian 1) makes me think that you have 5 ranks and only 1 of them came from Barbarian, for instance. You should have at least two languages, as you have an intelligence mod of +1. Since Barbarian was your level 1 class, you cannot put more than 4 ranks into skills with it's points, as that is the skill rank limit at level 1. Prefight actions should be 'Gain Psionic Focus'. Your armor and weapons need to be listed in Equipment as well as your attack block. Otherwise you wont get to use them. If you don't have sources of Damage Reduction or Spell Resistance, you can delete those lines. This is generally true of most things that doesn't have a modifier. For instance (conditional modifiers) that don't have any can be removed.
lonewolf 11-12-07, 12:33 PM	Greetings, grand coliseum masters! I've finally found my way here and gone throug the quick-start-guide. Now that I've finally created my first character, I'd like to ask for your help and advice: Here he is! (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=14312161&posted=1#post14312161) Have I done everything right? Durz Hi there and welcome to CoCo! A few things: - It looks like that you have forgotten to buy your weapons, or at least to list them in your equipment section. - Mental Resistance cannot be used if you have the ability to manifest powers. - If you dont want to wear an armor, I would suggest a wand of Mage armor instead of that wand of CLW. It will probably help you more. But it looks good otherwise. EDIT: Wow, I am slow...
whitebaron 11-12-07, 01:48 PM	I've finally found my way here and gone through the quick-start-guide. Vienna Invasion. :)
templer10 11-12-07, 01:48 PM	Question - do Skeletons, spesificly Huamn warrior skeletons gained as a skeletal minon (necromancer variant) Have proficeny in light armor?
hogarth 11-12-07, 01:59 PM	Question - do Skeletons, spesificly Huamn warrior skeletons gained as a skeletal minon (necromancer variant) Have proficeny in light armor? It's a moot point with Tzimosica since her skeleton buddy is wearing armor and using a shield with -0 ACP. But I would say "shields, yes; armor, no".
Callix 11-12-07, 02:27 PM	Greetings, grand coliseum masters! I've finally found my way here and gone throug the quick-start-guide. Now that I've finally created my first character, I'd like to ask for your help and advice: Here he is! (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=14312161&posted=1#post14312161) Have I done everything right? Durz Cleric/Barbarian... Luck and Magic domains... Do I know you? I was helping a friend with a quite similar build at one point... If that's you, then PM me. Elfsight is a dead power until level 5, when the lighting rules come into force. Then again, you need to hold on to your focus, so you won't be using many pp. Even if you like having your speed, the classic CoCo armor, the mithral chain shirt, costs only 350gp more than your wand, and it's permanent and won't cost a buff round. No ACP either. You'll want at least 5 ranks in Profession; otherwise you can't use it to make money. The Ready tag should go in your subject line, not the first line of your post. However, due to administrative issues and the GM moving house, this week's fights have been cancelled. Try not to bother whitebaron or mucki too much this week: they're rewriting the PHP scripts that make the CoCo run :). Other than that, welcome, whoever you are!
Eamane 11-12-07, 02:51 PM	It's a moot point with Tzimosica since her skeleton buddy is wearing armor and using a shield with -0 ACP. But I would say "shields, yes; armor, no". I did a good bit of research on this when I made her, which is why I paid extra for -0 ACP stuff. The shield yes, since the human warrior skeleton is described as using a shield, but armor nope. Aside from the skeleton (which doesn't have armor) there is no listing of a human warrior in the MM; so he doesn't get armor.
McJarvis 11-12-07, 02:55 PM	O_O I hadn't thought of that. Do races with a "warrior" statted automatically gain the armor they are wearing as a proficency? Is it just that type or armor, or the armor class? Psions could interact with this really well, since nearly every race but humans are listed as wearing *something*....
hogarth 11-12-07, 03:03 PM	O_O I hadn't thought of that. Do races with a "warrior" statted automatically gain the armor they are wearing as a proficency? Is it just that type or armor, or the armor class? Psions could interact with this really well, since nearly every race but humans are listed as wearing *something*.... I have seen people argue that (e.g. that all elans are proficient with warhammers because the elan listed in the psionic monster part of the SRD is using a warhammer). I think it's dumb, though. Then again, I think that only creatures with racial hit dice should get the benefits of their type (e.g. no automatic martial proficiencies for half-fiends) but I'm in the minority on that one it seems.
whitebaron 11-12-07, 04:39 PM	http://www.joeh.org/~wb/coco/spider.php?roster=5179872&lords=5179881 http://www.joeh.org/~wb/coco/pairer.php?roster=5179872&lords=5179881 easy enough.
McJarvis 11-12-07, 04:40 PM	and last afterthought: does coco intend to stay at wizards even if they shut everything down you used except for forums accounts? I didn't see anyone else respond to this- so I guess I might as well go ahead and do so. I don't think CoCo will move from wizard's boards for anything short of them forcibly removing us. Aside from the loyalties owed the wizards community, residing here gives CoCo a level of visibility and aura of authenticity that would be unavailable elsewhere. (and there is really nothing to gain in moving- so why bother?)
MindWandererB 11-12-07, 04:50 PM	I didn't see anyone else respond to this- so I guess I might as well go ahead and do so. I don't think CoCo will move from wizard's boards for anything short of them forcibly removing us. Aside from the loyalties owed the wizards community, residing here gives CoCo a level of visibility and aura of authenticity that would be unavailable elsewhere. (and there is really nothing to gain in moving- so why bother?) Yeah... without the visibility of the official WotC website, CoCo will eventually curl up and die. @Durzulgor: Welcome! We may or may not be having pairings this week due to Gleemax drama, but I'll be sure to have you added in by next week. @whitebaron: Looks great! I don't really get how it works, though.
whitebaron 11-12-07, 05:09 PM	Yeah... without the visibility of the official WotC website, CoCo will eventually curl up and die. @Durzulgor: Welcome! We may or may not be having pairings this week due to Gleemax drama, but I'll be sure to have you added in by next week. @whitebaron: Looks great! I don't really get how it works, though. first id is the id of the post where the roster is in (rosterid) second id is for the pitlords-post. (though i don't exactly know whats that for, bt only looked at it for some minutes)
MindWandererB 11-12-07, 06:25 PM	first id is the id of the post where the roster is in (rosterid) second id is for the pitlords-post. (though i don't exactly know whats that for, bt only looked at it for some minutes) An old version assigned pitlords automatically. The bugs never got worked out, though. All right, so we have a workable solution for this week. Telin, I assume you'll be able to cover for me? What you (or whoever) have to do is copy the character roster into a new post (using the quote button; FotW is a good place to put it), then use the URLs whitebaron provided, substituting the copy's post number for the one that's in there now (which points to the "real" roster). When I return, I'll copy the copy back into the main roster. Since you can't update the pairings post in the Characters thread, just put it in the Battles thread under your name (which means you'll have to update it with links), and leave me a list of credit stuff to do.
Durzulgor 11-12-07, 08:17 PM	Even if you like having your speed, the classic CoCo armor, the mithral chain shirt, costs only 350gp more than your wand, and it's permanent and won't cost a buff round. No ACP either. Scroll of Invisibility => Arcane Scroll => Armor check penalty I'll get a mithral chain shirt as soon as I can afford a wand of invis You'll want at least 5 ranks in Profession; otherwise you can't use it to make money. true, thought I'd take that next level, but since I've got some points freed up from first level, maybe The Ready tag should go in your subject line, not the first line of your post. However, due to administrative issues and the GM moving house, this week's fights have been cancelled. Try not to bother whitebaron or mucki too much this week: they're rewriting the PHP scripts that make the CoCo run :). hmm, I'll just ask them both when I see them this thursday, playing our eberron campaign! ^^ Other than that, welcome, whoever you are! thanks!
Taureus_Drakken 11-12-07, 09:07 PM	I can't find the decision about 'tailed' characters getting armor for regular price... I was planning on picking up some scrolls of AS (trog) for Ackbar...Not sure if his knowledge is high enough yet for one thing (Knowledge (Local): +5 [2 Int, 3 Ranks (6 ClericCC)])...But if he can't use them without needing to doff his armor, I won't even bother. Thanks in advance! ~Taureus~
Erithmu 11-12-07, 09:52 PM	Ok ... I'm back ... @Hirm/MWB: TT game ... YES! Might be limited to certain nights/time due to school and what not, but we can work it out. @McJ/Pbp game: I'll step down from the roster. I'm kinda over busy at the moment and don't need another thing to check every day online. @Campaigners: I'll get a new post up when I can, kinda still jet lagged. @Vath/Telin: Kill da dwagon, Kill da dwagon! Someone cut McJ off from posting every 3rd post ... I had to read through 6 pages of tavern to catch up ... or at least make him condense is thoughts ... :)
MindWandererB 11-12-07, 11:38 PM	@Hirm/MWB: TT game ... YES! Might be limited to certain nights/time due to school and what not, but we can work it out.Can't be worse than my current gaming group: one med student, two resident psychiatrists, one resident internist/pediatrician, and one resident pathologist (the only residency specialty with a tolerable call schedule) with social phobia. I think the last time we played was in January. For about 3 hours. And they all have severe problems staying on task. Officially, this has been the "longest running" campaign I've ever DMed, and yet the party is level 4. So yeah, I'll take what I can get. After I'm done moving, that is.
whitebaron 11-13-07, 02:18 AM	@durzulgor: i'd use money making skills. they are just to good to be left out for an entire level if you have the ranks available for them. it's like 300 free gold each 3FC- with your expendable heavy build (invis every time) you're likely to want that to offset your shopping.
Durzulgor 11-13-07, 07:44 AM	Allright, got some cross-class profession ranks from 1st level, reduced concentration a little (won't need it too much anyway) and fixed some other minor details. He'll not earn the promised 300g each 3fc, but at least a little more than 1 scroll of invis! ;-) I think Durzulgor I is ready for his first fight!
TelinArtho 11-13-07, 09:56 AM	An old version assigned pitlords automatically. The bugs never got worked out, though. All right, so we have a workable solution for this week. Telin, I assume you'll be able to cover for me? What you (or whoever) have to do is copy the character roster into a new post (using the quote button; FotW is a good place to put it), then use the URLs whitebaron provided, substituting the copy's post number for the one that's in there now (which points to the "real" roster). When I return, I'll copy the copy back into the main roster. Since you can't update the pairings post in the Characters thread, just put it in the Battles thread under your name (which means you'll have to update it with links), and leave me a list of credit stuff to do. Okay - I'll see what I can do. Everyone - expect a longer-than-usual time since the procedure is different and if there are roster additions that MWB hasn't noted by the time the deadline is up - send me a PM (as well as Pitlords). I will probably be fiddling around with things before hand, so just ignore anything you see me post that has no content... EDIT: And of course today is Tuesday... so I won't do much today...
whitebaron 11-13-07, 11:13 AM	Okay - I'll see what I can do. Everyone - expect a longer-than-usual time since the procedure is different and if there are roster additions that MWB hasn't noted by the time the deadline is up - send me a PM (as well as Pitlords). I will probably be fiddling around with things before hand, so just ignore anything you see me post that has no content... EDIT: And of course today is Tuesday... so I won't do much today... give me a call if you need some help for any dull tasks. ;)
Hirumajoe 11-13-07, 01:47 PM	@McJarvis: Would the following concept work (and be allowed) in the proposed campaign? It uses Complete Adventurer, Races of Destiny, and Book of Exalted Deeds (plus the usual SRD). Human Scout 1 (from Complete Adventurer) S14 D14 C14 I16 W14 C10 Feats: Alertness, Able Learner (all skills are in class skills - from Races of Destiny) Skills: Hide 4, Move Silently 4, Listen 4, Spot 4, Bluff 4, Sense Motive 4, Diplomacy 4, Search 4, Disable Device 4, Survival 4 (plus Ride 4 and Spellcraft 4) He'd taking one level of scout mostly for trapfinding, then diving into Ranger. Grabbing Favored of the Companions at 3rd (feat from Book of Exalted Deeds (BoED)) and going into Stalker of Kharesh at level 6 (and grabbing Favored Enemy (Evil)). Final progression would look like: Scout 1/Ranger 1-4/Stalker of Kharesh 1-2/Ranger 5/Stalker of Kharesh 3-4/Ranger X He'd effectively be the party's rogue (without actually taking rogue levels...).
TelinArtho 11-13-07, 02:31 PM	Ah yes - the campaign. For ideas, I'm tossing around a couple of simple builds (because that's the way I like them...): Race: Human, Elf, Dwarf are all possibilities Class: Most likely Cleric unless that role is already covered. If Cleric is useful, I'd probably Neutral or Neutral Good and use the elemental influences (see Dentik or Ialgo) as my character's focus. If I played a Dwarf - most likely Earth and Destruction (like Dentik) or Earth and Fire domains; Elf would likely be Air and Fire or Air and Weather; Human would be likely Water and Strength domains. I need to go back and reread what McJ already posted - but I would only use stuff from the SRD (since it is all I have access to anyway)
lonewolf 11-13-07, 02:43 PM	@campaign: Mucki has set up a space in his forum for that, so maybe we just use that to not clutter the Tavern here? Anyway: If allowed, I would like to play either a Warlock(Complete Arcane) or an Crusader/Cleric/Ruby Knight Vidicator(Tome of Battle). But I can also fill any other partyrole if required.
mucki 11-14-07, 04:58 AM	@campaign: Mucki has set up a space in his forum for that, so maybe we just use that to not clutter the Tavern here? Anyway: If allowed, I would like to play either a Warlock(Complete Arcane) or an Crusader/Cleric/Ruby Knight Vidicator(Tome of Battle). But I can also fill any other partyrole if required. I agree with the moving to the forum bit. If only so that you all can try and see if it works for yuo, if account creation works, etc ... here is the url again: http://mucki.hlw.co.at/~webrpg/phpBB3/ Note: There is no single sign-on (yet) for the forum and wiki, so you need to make two accounts (unless you work anonymously as guest user). Note2: The mail alerts when threads are changed is not working correctly, but i am working on that.
McJarvis 11-14-07, 08:34 AM	I'll see about posting something on that forum on my lunchbreak today. On a more CoCo-ish note- does anyone have thoughts/ideas on what's going down for a tournament in January? I got the impression that something "Iron Man-esque" was supposed to happen regularly, since Sauro's description says _first_ CoCo tournament champion ;)
mucki 11-14-07, 08:41 AM	There will be a tournament in january ? nice :) Are there any rules concerning tournaments that are already known/fixed? like: must be a new character for the tournament, costs X credits to play, ... ?
hogarth 11-14-07, 09:00 AM	On a more CoCo-ish note- does anyone have thoughts/ideas on what's going down for a tournament in January? I got the impression that something "Iron Man-esque" was supposed to happen regularly, since Sauro's description says _first_ CoCo tournament champion ;) My $0.02: If we have a tournament or special event or whatever, I'd rather see something with (a) not many rounds and (b) open to anyone who wants to participate. I'm still holding out hope for a couple of ideas: (1) Anyone is free to create an ECL 15 gladiator with unlimited credits, usable for one fight only. Then we have pairings normally and let the chips fall where they may. ("Cheeseman" competition) (2) Create an obstacle course with several goals to accomplish (defeat monster X, survive trap Y, move distance Z, for instance), and whoever can finish it first is the winner. Everyone gets a (scaled) version of the same obstacle course.
Rauul 11-14-07, 09:00 AM	I'll see about posting something on that forum on my lunchbreak today. On a more CoCo-ish note- does anyone have thoughts/ideas on what's going down for a tournament in January? I got the impression that something "Iron Man-esque" was supposed to happen regularly, since Sauro's description says _first_ CoCo tournament champion ;) I would love to see a tournament that was open to all ecl 6-13 (Unfrozen) Each Ecl would have it's own bracket.. if they advance in level in the bracket they move to the other bracket ect.. 2 winners.. ecl 6-9 and ecl 10-13 Just imagine... an ECL 6 vs an ECL 13 (7 buff/surprise rounds) might be interesting...
lonewolf 11-14-07, 09:09 AM	There was only one tournament until now, and it was for ECL10 characters and teams only, but at that time ECL10 was the highest league(no higher level characters). So there were many ECl10 characters that werent allowed to be active otherwise. After the tournament the ECL10-15 Leagues were opened which slowly spread the characters onto those leagues. Im not really sure how we want to do it this time around since we dont have an ECL with enough characters around to host a tournament, except ECL3, and I believe noone wants an ECL3 tournament. EDIT: I really dont like the "obstacle course" idea. It has very few things to do with usual arena fights and it is impossible to balance for all classes/ECLs. But I do have an idea how to do a short tournament with many characters: use FFAs. 4 characters in one fight, only the winner advances to the next round. With up to 16 players we would only have 2 rounds. This could be coupled with "create a free ECL15 character for the tournament" and the first 3 characters are allowed to stay active afterwards. But I dont see a good way to use only the current active characters in this tournament.
hogarth 11-14-07, 09:21 AM	EDIT: I really dont like the "obstacle course" idea. It has very few things to do with usual arena fights and it is impossible to balance for all classes/ECLs. Yes, but think of all the fun we could have afterwards arguing whether it was balanced or not! :D
McJarvis 11-14-07, 09:35 AM	I should probably note that there is no official tournament planned to my knowledge- I just thought it would make sense to make it an annual thing. [and we're getting to the point where it's only a month or so away]
lonewolf 11-14-07, 09:40 AM	I agree. And since it will probably the last Tournament before 4e comes around, I dont think we should miss it.
Rauul 11-14-07, 09:43 AM	Actually i wish an ECL 12-13 would put another in for Playtesting... so we can do a FFA Monster hunt/Takedown play test... As well as some more ECL 3-11's so we can get the playtesting started.. Even some agents..
McJarvis 11-14-07, 09:49 AM	If there was a vote- I'd vote for the Cheese Man tourny. I've liked that idea since it was first thrown out there.
Stormwind 11-14-07, 10:26 AM	I'm with lonewolf on the obstacle course idea ... it's been suggested before, but due to the difficulty/impossibility of making it balanced, it has never happened. I too like the idea of 'Create a ECL 15 character' for the tourney, with the top 3 characters being allowed to remain active in the CoCo afterwards. We would, of course, need to create a separate character thread for the tourney, with the top 3 being allowed to move their characters accross to the CoCo character thread after the tourney. However I think that there should be limits on the amount of 'credits' available for creating such a character. For example, creating a level 15 character from scratch in the CoCo currently costs 60 credits. I would suggest a total 'creation credit cost' of 80 credits. This would mean that you can create any (ECL15) character for the tourney that would normally cost up to 80 credits to activate. This would allow for the creation of an ECL15 character with up to 2 variant classes from the UA material. I am also unsure of whether items that would require credits should be allowed as that could prove to be rather problamatic later when the 3 top characters from the tourney join the CoCo roster.
Macbrea 11-14-07, 10:28 AM	In truth, 20 credits on a character that high isn't a huge difference. You have to look up a share of rules in order to figure out what works and what doesn't anyways.
Ackermanus 11-14-07, 10:30 AM	Can you craft part of an item only having 1000 gp at the time? I am thinking on crafting an Adamantine full plate (8250 gp) for Verger, but I have only about 5600 at the moment. Since it will take 9 weeks to craft, it possible to start crafting now (deducting 1000 gp per week), or are the 8250 gp taken the moment you start crafting? Thanks in advance for the answer(s).
McJarvis 11-14-07, 10:35 AM	I am also unsure of whether items that would require credits should be allowed as that could prove to be rather problamatic later when the 3 top characters from the tourney join the CoCo roster. That's a pretty good point. Personally when I heard the "free credits" thing I was just thinking that you could use all the UA material you wanted. I believe our UnCon contest worked that way.
hogarth 11-14-07, 10:44 AM	I am also unsure of whether items that would require credits should be allowed as that could prove to be rather problamatic later when the 3 top characters from the tourney join the CoCo roster. Well, my idea was to allow any crazy, whacked-out idea for one week only, never to be played again -- not to allow permanent additions to the CoCo roster. YMMV. But, after all, credits just add choices, not power, right? C'mon guys, am I right? ;)
Stormwind 11-14-07, 10:45 AM	Can you craft part of an item only having 1000 gp at the time? I am thinking on crafting an Adamantine full plate (8250 gp) for Verger, but I have only about 5600 at the moment. Since it will take 9 weeks to craft, it possible to start crafting now (deducting 1000 gp per week), or are the 8250 gp taken the moment you start crafting? Thanks in advance for the answer(s). I believe that you have to have enough gold to cover each week and the crafting must be continuous. Thus if you want to start crafting as a free activity immediately, then you must earn the remaining 2650 before it is needed. However the rules are a little vague on this point so it might be good to check with the elders in the courtroom. It might be easier to simply earn the 2650gp first and then use a Full activity for 2 weeks to make the armor. Then you could also craft up to 5750gp more stuff during the second week (if you have the money of course).
McJarvis 11-14-07, 10:46 AM	But, after all, credits just add choices, not power, right? C'mon guys, am I right? ;) You are correct :)
Stormwind 11-14-07, 10:53 AM	Well, my idea was to allow any crazy, whacked-out idea for one week only, never to be played again -- not to allow permanent additions to the CoCo roster. YMMV. But, after all, credits just add choices, not power, right? C'mon guys, am I right? ;) heh ... I'll pass on getting drawn into the credits=power discussion ;) I personally think that giving the 'prizes' of being able to keep the character afterwards gives more incentive to create a good well rounded character (regarding skills for activities etc). Further, although the idea of creating 'anything' sounds like fun to start with, you have to have some limits otherwise it's simply a matter of roll initiative to see who won. (Just trying to be the rational voice in terms of organising/judging such a tourney ;) )
hogarth 11-14-07, 11:02 AM	heh ... I'll pass on getting drawn into the credits=power discussion ;) I personally think that giving the 'prizes' of being able to keep the character afterwards gives more incentive to create a good well rounded character (regarding skills for activities etc). Further, although the idea of creating 'anything' sounds like fun to start with, you have to have some limits otherwise it's simply a matter of roll initiative to see who won. (Just trying to be the rational voice in terms of organising/judging such a tourney ;) ) Here's my point of view: We had a tournament that worked just as you suggest (people made reasonable characters and they fought through a couple of rounds and people kept them afterwards). Out of the four people who got to keep their characters, two were never used and the other two have been used less than half a dozen times. I don't even remember the tournament battles; I didn't find them incredibly memorable, especially since I had nothing personally invested in them. Why should we have more of the same? Now if we allow ANYTHING and allow ANYONE to participate, I guarantee you that there will be some memorable moments! (And yes, a few first-round kills.) If we have to have a prize of some sort, we can have a vote afterwards for "most memorable fight" or "most memorable gladiator", maybe.
McJarvis 11-14-07, 11:05 AM	Here's my point of view: We had a tournament that worked just as you suggest (people made reasonable characters and they fought through a couple of rounds and people kept them afterwards). Out of the four people who got to keep their characters, two were never used and the other two have been used less than half a dozen times. I don't even remember the tournament battles; I didn't find them incredibly memorable, especially since I had nothing personally invested in them. Why should we have more of the same? Now if we allow ANYTHING and allow ANYONE to participate, I guarantee you that there will be some memorable moments! (And yes, a few first-round kills.) If we have to have a prize of some sort, we can have a vote afterwards for "most memorable fight" or "most memorable gladiator", maybe. The problem with UnCon was more the voting process. Poe got voted best sneak- but in practice he had SEVERAL problems, most notably was his delivery methods. Then a mystic theurge got voted for best spellcaster- but ultimately theurge's are not that great(especially with the incoming of teams)
Erithmu 11-14-07, 11:31 AM	Actually a team tourney could be fun ... organizing it would be rough, and splitting up teams could be interesting. Of course I really want to see just a big grand melee fight ... that would be wicked fun (And I would volunteer to moderate/pitlord). I think I would like to see something besides the 'make character' -> 'run character through vote/fight process'
Stormwind 11-14-07, 11:49 AM	Here's my point of view: <snip> Now if we allow ANYTHING and allow ANYONE to participate, I guarantee you that there will be some memorable moments! (And yes, a few first-round kills.) If we have to have a prize of some sort, we can have a vote afterwards for "most memorable fight" or "most memorable gladiator", maybe. First I acknowledge your PoV (I disagree, but that's my PoV). The problem I see with your idea is that anyone trying to optimize builds under such conditions will come up with a character that essentially does the 'If I win initiative, then I win' thing, simply because of the fact that there are no limits. (Note I am not arguing against your idea here, just the fact that it must have some limits). For example imagine a staff with Wail of the Banshee held by a ghost character within a solid object(the floor or walls). Actually a team tourney could be fun ... organizing it would be rough, and splitting up teams could be interesting. Of course I really want to see just a big grand melee fight ... that would be wicked fun (And I would volunteer to moderate/pitlord). I think I would like to see something besides the 'make character' -> 'run character through vote/fight process' Now this sounds interesting. Perhaps something like: Make a team of 4 ECL 11 characters with 3 other players. Then we have team battles a la 'la grande melee', and perhaps the winning team gets to keep characters (or some other prize) There is a definite Pro in that this would better represent the 'iconic' party approach to DnD, however the biggest Cons would be getting Judges willing to pitlord the melee's, and getting enough players participating to make it feasible. Still, I like it.
templer10 11-14-07, 11:57 AM	Ill vote for the Ecl 15 Cheeseman Contest but as said before Ill imit the credits avaible - but maybe not 20 as was sugegsted but more Like 30 or so. another suggestion is to not make just entries of one ECL 15 charcter- but ANY combo that give you ECL 15 in the end - Maybe limit it to 5 (or some other arbitary number) or so chars per party? so if you really want to make a dwarf fighter army.... you can.
mucki 11-14-07, 12:09 PM	Ill vote for the Ecl 15 Cheeseman Contest but as said before Ill imit the credits avaible - but maybe not 20 as was sugegsted but more Like 30 or so. another suggestion is to not make just entries of one ECL 15 charcter- but ANY combo that give you ECL 15 in the end - Maybe limit it to 5 (or some other arbitary number) or so chars per party? so if you really want to make a dwarf fighter army.... you can. So you say I cannot make a party of a gazillion ECL1 creatures and get a draw because the pitlord dies of old age before the fight is over ? ;-) Anyway, I like the idea. If people want a big melee brawl, then we could do two tournaments in parallel: simple 1 on 1 knockout for one, and in a parallel battle, all chars in one big battle royale. Since the second would take much longer to pitlord anyway, it could just progress while the 1 on 1 fights are done.
whitebaron 11-14-07, 12:11 PM	i like t10s ideas. though i'd give out unearthed arcana content for the tournament as free. about the rounds: single elimination sounds like the right thing to do. you have to get a winner - but it must not be fair. about the ecl: i wouldn't go up as far as 15 - if you get to keep the character afterwards, that's way to much for the current leagues. @team tourney: well, just run a second tourney, then.
templer10 11-14-07, 12:20 PM	i like t10s ideas. though i'd give out unearthed arcana content for the tournament as free. about the rounds: single elimination sounds like the right thing to do. you have to get a winner - but it must not be fair. about the ecl: i wouldn't go up as far as 15 - if you get to keep the character afterwards, that's way to much for the current leagues. @team tourney: well, just run a second tourney, then. Another thing to note is wheter or not we allow for current chars to participate - I woudl prefer yes- but it might create an imbalance of power - i.e. All of MY high level chars has more gold then their equal level compatriots and a LOT more then a new char in their ECL (my psion's has 130-160 K in gear/gold at ecl 12-13) since they rarely ever lose and as we all know - Gold=power.
mucki 11-14-07, 12:21 PM	you have to get a winner - but it must not be fair. You probably meant "it does not have to be fair" ?
Hirumajoe 11-14-07, 12:21 PM	Actually i wish an ECL 12-13 would put another in for Playtesting... so we can do a FFA Monster hunt/Takedown play test... As well as some more ECL 3-11's so we can get the playtesting started.. Even some agents.. Valen Sky (ECL 12) has been added... Although if he's going up against the likes of Samuel and Psibeast he may have a short run of it. :)
mucki 11-14-07, 12:23 PM	contestants should definitely start with the same amount of gold, for exatly the reason you stated, imho. I would have no problem with existing chars competing, if their equipment value is not greater than that of a newly created char though (so you would just have to leave all your gold at home).
templer10 11-14-07, 12:26 PM	contestants should definitely start with the same amount of gold, for exatly the reason you stated, imho. I would have no problem with existing chars competing, if their equipment value is not greater than that of a newly created char though (so you would just have to leave all your gold at home). Of course - consider the other thing - iam sure a lot of peeps would much prefer to claim a Win against the GR's out there then a newly made char, and the GR's will ALL have more gold then a starting char.
McJarvis 11-14-07, 12:31 PM	Of course - consider the other thing - iam sure a lot of peeps would much prefer to claim a Win against the GR's out there then a newly made char, and the GR's will ALL have more gold then a starting char. I'm not sure that that is an accurate assessment. I really don't care if my wins are against GR characters or not: I just care that they are wins.
mucki 11-14-07, 12:37 PM	Of course - consider the other thing - iam sure a lot of peeps would much prefer to claim a Win against the GR's out there then a newly made char, and the GR's will ALL have more gold then a starting char. Well, having that gold is no problem if you are not going to use it. So when you make your contestant ready for the tournament just put all the equipment into the at-home section, so that equipment worn and carried value is <= starting gold of a new character. That is perfectly fair and not hard to do.
Hirumajoe 11-14-07, 12:43 PM	...has more gold then their equal level compatriots and a LOT more then a new char in their ECL (my psion's has 130-160 K in gear/gold at ecl 12-13) since they rarely ever lose... Actually winning or losing isn't a great determiner if you're going to have more or less gold at high levels. Expendable use will decrease it and money making free actions will increase it. Hence the Maven principle. (I.e. Lose every fight, never use expendables and use a craft or profession as your free action every fight (or selling crafted items for extra)). For example, Valen only has a 20/16 W/L ratio, but he has 100,882 gp worth of cash and equipment, having only ever used used 1554.075 and sold a 50gp greatsword. A starting ECL 12 would have 92,000 gp and start with 2200 more xp. (About another 6000 for Valen). So Valen is up about 15% with only about a 50/50 Win/Loss record. Its hard to tell with Lord Lorian since his accounting isn't well kept (and looks to be straight up out of date - the numbers don't add up in your accounting section), plus he's got a bunch of dorjes half used, but I'd guess he's up maybe 20% or so over starting character, mostly because of his crafting free actions.
Erithmu 11-14-07, 12:44 PM	Ahem ... @Sauro: All this talk of tournaments has led me to look back at the IMT tourney and realize that you wanted a fight I could not give you ... therefore ... Loddick Saffrion (ECL 11) of The Living tree Challenges Raskos, The Jade Father (ECL 11) of the Psi Consoritum As a ... shall we say 'Roleplay' fight for the control of southeast Gladius, and a farewell fight for Loddick (to make MWB happy) Terms of engagement: - Frozen (Loddick is retired) and done in separate thread (copy char sheets) with no effect on record/Power Rating - Map Choice to Raskos, Loddick reserves the right to reject the map choice once - Full PP/SL available for the fight - All terms of engagement subject to agreement - Terms of engagement not limited to those listed here
Rauul 11-14-07, 01:10 PM	Seeing all these Teams... i have to Wonder.. Did Battlesong Duet retire??
McJarvis 11-14-07, 01:24 PM	Seeing all these Teams... i have to Wonder.. Did Battlesong Duet retire?? I think so. Or at least we're on hold since TM can't be around to work with me on it. I was kind of disenchanted by the end with it all due to some structural problems with cupid.
hogarth 11-14-07, 01:26 PM	Seeing all these Teams... i have to Wonder.. Did Battlesong Duet retire?? All of McJarvis's characters are set to auto-retire after about 10 fights. ;)
McJarvis 11-14-07, 01:29 PM	All of McJarvis's characters are set to auto-retire after about 10 fights. ;) Shhh- no one is supposed to talk about that ;) I'm actually committed to getting my two current active chars up to graveyard status at least. We'll see how long it takes...
lonewolf 11-14-07, 02:49 PM	Valen Sky (ECL 12) has been added... Although if he's going up against the likes of Samuel and Psibeast he may have a short run of it. :) Since those fights dont count anyway, you could simply advance Valen to ECL13 only for those Playtest battles. Now we would only need to find a pitlord for that Monster hunt. :D
Stormwind 11-14-07, 02:54 PM	<snip> Loddick Saffrion (ECL 11) of The Living tree Challenges Raskos, The Jade Father (ECL 11) of the Psi Consoritum <snip>If you guys need a pitlord to run this as a separate thread fight, I can volunteer (although this weekend is probably not viable)
lonewolf 11-14-07, 03:11 PM	Is there any reason I am not aware of why there were no Hunter fights in the last few months? I´ve seen FFAs, Team fights, but not a single hunter fight.
TelinArtho 11-14-07, 03:17 PM	Hunter fights were removed (and it says as much in the Rules thread in a note under the hunter fight) because of complications with the defining of dead/defeated/etc.
lonewolf 11-14-07, 03:21 PM	Hunter fights were removed (and it says as much in the Rules thread in a note under the hunter fight) because of complications with the defining of dead/defeated/etc. :pbbbtt: I liked Hunter fights, because they rewarded proactive tactics instead of FFAs which reward defense only tactics. Dont we have a valid definition on "defeated" now?
hogarth 11-14-07, 03:28 PM	Is there any reason I am not aware of why there were no Hunter fights in the last few months? I´ve seen FFAs, Team fights, but not a single hunter fight. Some people really disliked them for whatever reason. I always found the difference between hunter and FFA fights to be negligible.
MindWandererB 11-14-07, 04:10 PM	Some people really disliked them for whatever reason. I always found the difference between hunter and FFA fights to be negligible. That was one of the main problems. That combined with the confusion of determining the timing of when targets switched caused us to take them off the docket. I liked them in theory, but in practice they had some problems. We do have a better "defeated" definition, in the Battles of Gladius I section of the rules. Re: tourneys: I have one main problem with the Cheese Man, which is that since custom items and the like need to be approved, this tournament would necessitate a massive number of approvals, and possibly much discussion, before we could even begin. I also don't think it would be fair to allow a 1000-credit character into the arena for "free," even as a prize. I had some other ideas about tournament themes; I'll share them when I get my internet hooked back up.
Hirumajoe 11-14-07, 04:14 PM	Since those fights dont count anyway, you could simply advance Valen to ECL13 only for those Playtest battles. Now we would only need to find a pitlord for that Monster hunt. :D Hmm... that would be tempting. If only to see how well Hide in Plain sight + Cerebral Blind works. :)
hogarth 11-14-07, 04:31 PM	Re: tourneys: I have one main problem with the Cheese Man, which is that since custom items and the like need to be approved, this tournament would necessitate a massive number of approvals, and possibly much discussion, before we could even begin. I also don't think it would be fair to allow a 1000-credit character into the arena for "free," even as a prize. My original proposal was that everything would be automatically approved, no matter how ridiculous, no questions asked. And I never suggested adding the winning character to the roster; I don't know who came up with that idea. So those two particular objections don't apply to what I'm thinking of.
Rauul 11-14-07, 04:34 PM	Since those fights dont count anyway, you could simply advance Valen to ECL13 only for those Playtest battles. Now we would only need to find a pitlord for that Monster hunt. :D Do you honestly have to look to hard.... Sheeesh... I have only been nagging everyone for 3 weeks...
lonewolf 11-14-07, 04:55 PM	so everyone agrees? Monster Hunt Samuel vs Psibeast vs Valen[sub]updated to ECL13[/sup]: Rauul
Rauul 11-14-07, 05:16 PM	so everyone agrees? Monster Hunt Samuel vs Psibeast vs Valen[sub]updated to ECL13[/sup]: Rauul Actually would like that.. but not this week.. 2 fights and a miniquest fills my plate to beyond full.. Now if the Playtest was to say take 2-3 weeks i could do it.. (since we have to work out bugs ect..)
lonewolf 11-14-07, 05:40 PM	Actually would like that.. but not this week.. 2 fights and a miniquest fills my plate to beyond full.. Now if the Playtest was to say take 2-3 weeks i could do it.. (since we have to work out bugs ect..) We would have to do it in a seperate thread anyway(impossible to write tactics), and its a playtest, so we dont have to follow the usual fight cycle and we can take a couple of weeks to finish it. So no reason to wait on my account.
Stormwind 11-14-07, 06:07 PM	There are also 3 characters at ECL7 in the playtest thread: Shakari (Luni) Imperi (Luni) Varjo (Stormwind) Do we have anyone interested in running another playtest?
whitebaron 11-14-07, 06:28 PM	as there is currently a pitlord shortage, it's unlikely we get many of those done.
Hirumajoe 11-14-07, 07:06 PM	To whom it may concern, Valen has been updated to ECL 13 in the playtest thread. So he should be on an even footing with Samuel and Psibeast. I just gave him 12,000 xp and 32,000 gp, which seemed about right.
whitebaron 11-14-07, 07:39 PM	i posted a short pitlord profile of myself. felt inclined to do so by hitting the 20 fight mark... only look at the scary stuff if you have a good stomach. ;)
Rauul 11-15-07, 12:09 AM	To whom it may concern, Valen has been updated to ECL 13 in the playtest thread. So he should be on an even footing with Samuel and Psibeast. I just gave him 12,000 xp and 32,000 gp, which seemed about right. I will set up the Monster Hunt to be simular to a Quest/miniquest thread.. Soon.. with the ECL 13's... (3 ecl 10 monsters on the field each rolled randomly.. no autowins/losts) If Telin and MwB Give me the Ok i will set up the ECL 7's for a Monster Takedown playtest... It won't add much to the pitlord Load for me... as there is no real time limit.. and will allow for bugs to be worked out... MwB we need something for the Incorperals to do.. king of the hill, and Capture the flag.. is kinda hard on them as written...
TelinArtho 11-15-07, 12:41 AM	I'm not going to comment - I haven't followed enough about this stuff to know even what's going on. I leave it to MWB to approve/deny.
Rauul 11-15-07, 12:57 AM	I'm not going to comment - I haven't followed enough about this stuff to know even what's going on. I leave it to MWB to approve/deny. Ok is no biggie..
whitebaron 11-15-07, 02:22 AM	MwB we need something for the Incorperals to do.. king of the hill, and Capture the flag.. is kinda hard on them as written... well, they chose to be incorporeal? ;) it's most likely that some parts of the community will ever stay closed to specialists - bein incorporeal counts as one of those.
Stormwind 11-15-07, 03:15 AM	well, they chose to be incorporeal? ;) it's most likely that some parts of the community will ever stay closed to specialists - bein incorporeal counts as one of those. I definitely agree that they chose to be incorporeal and that 'every character' has limitations. It is also still possible for Incorporeal characters to participate in most of the challenges. A list of challenges as it pertains to incorporeals is as follows: FFA combat challenges Capture the flag - Impossible. The only way an incorporeal creature could affect the flag is through the use of magic or psionics and the rules state ' It cannot be carried by any other means'. Thus unless the rules are changed such that the flag is considered a 'ghost touch' item, then incorporeals cannot participate in this challenge. King of the hill - No problem Monster hunt - No problem Monster takedown - Incorporeal characters often do ability damage which highlights a possible problem here regarding how 'damage' is calculated. The same thing would apply to a character using ego whip for example. Just something to consider. Confidence course - No problem Team combat challenges Capture the flag - Difficult. The only way an incorporeal creature could affect the flag is through the use of magic or psionics and the rules state ' It cannot be carried by any other means'. Thus unless the rules are changed such that the flag is considered a 'ghost touch' item, then incorporeals cannot participate in this challenge except by killing members of the opposing team. King of the hill - No problem Monster takedown - Incorporeal characters often do ability damage which highlights a possible problem here regarding how 'damage' is calculated. The same thing would apply to a character using ego whip for example. Just something to consider. Ability skill challenges Equestrian Sports [Ride] - theoretically possible due t the fact that an incorporeal character can have ranks in ride. However the incorporeal character would have to be assumed to be riding an incorporeal mount. Performances [Perform] - No problem Acrobatics [Tumble] - No problem Long Jumping [Jump] - This is Str based and incorporeal creatures do not have a Str score. However Str modifier is calculated as +0, so it is possible. Free Climbing [Climb] - This is Str based and incorporeal creatures do not have a Str score. However Str modifier is calculated as +0, so it is possible. Animal Training [Handle Animal] - Why not ... Balance Beam [Balance] - No problem Quiz Contest [Knowledge (random)] - No problem Weight Lifting [Strength] - - This is Str based and incorporeal creatures do not have a Str score. However Str modifier is calculated as +0, so it is possible. Agent challenges Since any character can have agents, and agents cannot be inorporeal, incorporeality does not affect these challenges. This means that from all the challenges, only the 'Capture the flag challenge' is currently impossible for an incorporeal character in a FFA and is difficult for an incorporeal character in a team battle. It also highlights the point that perhaps ability damage needs to be considered with regards to 'Monster takedown challenges'. Of course it could be possible to simply go with the 'remaining hp' concept if a monster is killed with ability damage, but ... that would mean that if a character did 90% damage to one ability (e.g. Str, Dex, Int, Wis or Cha - but not Con), but someone else killed the monster then currently they would be considered to have contributed exactly 0 damage which is kinda rough. This would affect any character doing ability damage through special attacks, poison, magic, or psionics. Of course, as it stands, if the monster is killed by ability damage while still on high hp, then that character would gain correspondingly high damage reward.
Stormwind 11-15-07, 09:07 AM	Out of curiousity, with the new rules for selling items as a free activity, what's stopping, for example, a level 3 character from taking 5 ranks Appraise, 5 ranks Gather information and 6 ranks Craft (shipbuilding), and then with a +2 int bonus and +2 tools, start building Galleys (srd price 30k each). Even with a cha modifer of +0, this would equate to 1500gp per free activity ... at level 3. Am I missing something here, or ... ?
McJarvis 11-15-07, 09:19 AM	Out of curiousity, with the new rules for selling items as a free activity, what's stopping, for example, a level 3 character from taking 5 ranks Appraise, 5 ranks Gather information and 6 ranks Craft (shipbuilding), and then with a +2 int bonus and +2 tools, start building Galleys (srd price 30k each). Even with a cha modifer of +0, this would equate to 1500gp per free activity ... at level 3. Am I missing something here, or ... ? It is per 3FC. At best you could do something like this: Buy a 3k item. 1st fight: sell for 3540 2nd: Craft 1k item 3rd: sell for 1180 gp Granted, more than 200 gp per fight is good- but this build has to exclude all equipment...I think it's funny that you brought it up, though, since I've been developing a character to take advantage of the mechanic :) I believe hogarth has a bard hanging around doing just this too.
hogarth 11-15-07, 09:20 AM	Out of curiousity, with the new rules for selling items as a free activity, what's stopping, for example, a level 3 character from taking 5 ranks Appraise, 5 ranks Gather information and 6 ranks Craft (shipbuilding), and then with a +2 int bonus and +2 tools, start building Galleys (srd price 30k each). Even with a cha modifer of +0, this would equate to 1500gp per free activity ... at level 3. Am I missing something here, or ... ? How is an ECL 3 character getting the 15000 gp to build a galley? But yes, the principle is well-established. If you look at my character Balthazar Picsou (in my .sig), he was built around crafting magic items and then selling them. To a lesser extent that's what my character Reginald Molehusband does as well.
Erithmu 11-15-07, 09:21 AM	Out of curiousity, with the new rules for selling items as a free activity, what's stopping, for example, a level 3 character from taking 5 ranks Appraise, 5 ranks Gather information and 6 ranks Craft (shipbuilding), and then with a +2 int bonus and +2 tools, start building Galleys (srd price 30k each). Even with a cha modifer of +0, this would equate to 1500gp per free activity ... at level 3. Am I missing something here, or ... ? Your right ... what your missing is the initial investment cost. (of 15k) Remember that you also have to have the item in your inventory to sell it. So to sell 3 per cycle, you have to invest an initial 45k gp. Right now I know that there is a character that is doing this very thing, and while the first few fights are rough, I'm not sure that the money boost has helped out in terms of ability in the arena (4/11 record 719 PR). Then again it might be a character build issue. The classes you take to get the skills you have listed are normally classes that are considered to be a little sub-par in terms of the CoCo experience. I think that he is up a good chunk of money relative to his ECL, and later that could prove useful.
hogarth 11-15-07, 09:44 AM	Right now I know that there is a character that is doing this very thing, and while the first few fights are rough, I'm not sure that the money boost has helped out in terms of ability in the arena (4/11 record 719 PR). Then again it might be a character build issue. The classes you take to get the skills you have listed are normally classes that are considered to be a little sub-par in terms of the CoCo experience. I think that he is up a good chunk of money relative to his ECL, and later that could prove useful. With Balthazar Picsou, it's definitely a character build issue; I wanted to try a character that used no allies or expendables (in order to reinvest as much money as possible each 3FC). If I were to do this again, I'd probably try a Bard 1/Telepath X; I even half-started statting one up once, but I realised that it would just be a rehash of things I've tried with Kilpquabjeg (Alter Self into a choker and use Metamorphic Transfer -- which no longer works) and Reginald Molehusband (Brain Lock, Craft Dorje + Sell Item) so I gave up on it. EDIT: Just for interest, I calculated how much money you can end up with assuming you reinvest every single gp at 16% compounded per 3FC, assuming 9 lost fights per level, for ECL 4-10: 9,092 ECL 4 19,071 ECL 5 36,274 ECL 6 64,754 ECL 7 111,646 ECL 8 188,095 ECL 9 311,895 ECL 10 So if you can resist the temptation to spent a single copper piece before reaching ECL 10, you'll be rolling in it. :D
Stormwind 11-15-07, 11:46 AM	With Balthazar Picsou, it's definitely a character build issue; I wanted to try a character that used no allies or expendables (in order to reinvest as much money as possible each 3FC). If I were to do this again, I'd probably try a Bard 1/Telepath X; I even half-started statting one up once, but I realised that it would just be a rehash of things I've tried with Kilpquabjeg (Alter Self into a choker and use Metamorphic Transfer -- which no longer works) and Reginald Molehusband (Brain Lock, Craft Dorje + Sell Item) so I gave up on it. EDIT: Just for interest, I calculated how much money you can end up with assuming you reinvest every single gp at 16% compounded per 3FC, assuming 9 lost fights per level, for ECL 4-10: <snip> So if you can resist the temptation to spent a single copper piece before reaching ECL 10, you'll be rolling in it. :D Hmmm ... well obviously I missed the initial investment cost and obviously if a character is investing their money continuously, then they can't actually use it so it has a hidden cost ... of sorts. However now I'm just wondering about slightly higher level characters. If you were to put 1000gp x ECL aside for this sort of crafting at mid levels (say level 6 or 7), and then continually reinvest it, it wouldn't be such a huge part of your capital and then crafting and selling stuff is way more profitable than a profession or sleight of hand etc. Of course it does require a minimum of 18 skill points, (which is a hefty cost itself too). Has anyone considered starting this sort of strategy at higher levels (i.e. level 10+), where the character is likely to be able to put aside 5-10k (and the minimum 18 skill points) without it affecting their characters performance too much? If you were to start something like this at about ECL10, your character would be more established and by the time you get to ECL 13-15 you should be rolling in it.
hogarth 11-15-07, 12:07 PM	Hmmm ... well obviously I missed the initial investment cost and obviously if a character is investing their money continuously, then they can't actually use it so it has a hidden cost ... of sorts. However now I'm just wondering about slightly higher level characters. If you were to put 1000gp x ECL aside for this sort of crafting at mid levels (say level 6 or 7), and then continually reinvest it, it wouldn't be such a huge part of your capital and then crafting and selling stuff is way more profitable than a profession or sleight of hand etc. Of course it does require a minimum of 18 skill points, (which is a hefty cost itself too). Has anyone considered starting this sort of strategy at higher levels (i.e. level 10+), where the character is likely to be able to put aside 5-10k (and the minimum 18 skill points) without it affecting their characters performance too much? If you were to start something like this at about ECL10, your character would be more established and by the time you get to ECL 13-15 you should be rolling in it. There's one more hidden cost: the character has to spend a big chunk of time crafting between 3FCs. For instance, to craft a ship with retail price 30K gp takes 5 consecutive full activities. So there's a lot of down-time. With regards to your suggestion of starting at level 6 or 7, that's essentially what I did with Reginald Molehusband (since he took Appraise cross-class, he didn't start selling items until level 7). Generally, he'll craft an expensive dorje during his off-time, use it during the week, and then sell it at the end of the week. My assessment is that it's the best way to make money with a free activity, hands down (except perhaps for Discount which uses the same skill set). It's slow, though. (By the way, it doesn't necessarily cost 18 skill ranks to do this -- 10 skill ranks [5 Appraise, 5 Gather Info] and a crafting feat are good enough.)
Stormwind 11-15-07, 01:05 PM	(By the way, it doesn't necessarily cost 18 skill ranks to do this -- 10 skill ranks [5 Appraise, 5 Gather Info] and a crafting feat are good enough.) Yeah it's either 18 skill ranks for non-casters, or 10 skill ranks + 1 craft feat for casters. I counted the 18 skill ranks based on a +0 ability modifier and the need to make a DC20 for masterwork items. However in some cases (like trapmaking) you need even more skill ranks. Still, it could be an interesting exercise to figure out the best way to do this such that it only minimally impacts the character and provides them with a nice source of income :D
hogarth 11-15-07, 01:25 PM	Frankly I'm surprised that the Sell Item activity isn't more popular. As far as I know I'm the only one who has ever used it! (I'm probably wrong on that one.)
McJarvis 11-15-07, 01:28 PM	Frankly I'm surprised that the Sell Item activity isn't more popular. As far as I know I'm the only one who has ever used it! (I'm probably wrong on that one.) It isn't a very exciting feature. I think most of the other skill packages get used because they are action-oriented. Getting a discount or selling items isn't very "gladiator-esque"
hogarth 11-15-07, 01:43 PM	It isn't a very exciting feature. I think most of the other skill packages get used because they are action-oriented. Getting a discount or selling items isn't very "gladiator-esque" By _far_ the most used skill package (I believe) is Political Career -- the least exciting one of all. So there's one theory blown out of the water. ;)
Stormwind 11-15-07, 01:45 PM	It isn't a very exciting feature. I think most of the other skill packages get used because they are action-oriented. Getting a discount or selling items isn't very "gladiator-esque" I dunno, I can easily see a member of a rich merchant/noble family getting his thrills in the arena. Just think of the Masked gladiator in the young Deathstalker novels. However it is a sizeable investment in terms of gold, skillpoints (and possibly 1 feat), especially at lower levels. However I think that at higher levels it becomes more feasible since it is a smaller percentage of the gladiators assets/abilities. If done right, this could have the potential to provide an enormous amount of cash for the gladiator to spend on various equipment which can't help but improve their viability in the arena.
McJarvis 11-15-07, 01:58 PM	By _far_ the most used skill package (I believe) is Political Career -- the least exciting one of all. So there's one theory blown out of the water. ;) I don't think you're really being rational on that one. (And man- you drawing a comparison that isn't accurate? That really caught me off guard. ;)) Poltical Career is more comparible to the crafting for money skills- easily attained and almost no sacrifice to aquire. You even get Diplomacy boosted, which is powerful in its own right. Sell/Discount, on the other hand, are more comparible to the attack/defend packages- heavy skill requirements[due to these skills not being that useful & CC for most classes]. They don't see use in Rogue builds at all, though, because they are not "exciting" enough, IMO. Anyway- if it's really bothering you all I'll see about doing a credit dump and throwing my character into the ring. Then we'll have an example of a good build that takes advantage of the package ;)
hogarth 11-15-07, 02:21 PM	I don't think you're really being rational on that one. (And man- you drawing a comparison that isn't accurate? That really caught me off guard. ;)) Huh? You said other skill packages get used more because they're more exciting. But that's obviously not the case for Political Career (IMO). I think the real reason it's not used as much is because the classes with Appraise as a class skill are less popular (Rogue, Expert, Aristocrat, Bard, etc.). I don't think "excitement" has anything to do with it. Again YMMV.
Macbrea 11-15-07, 02:22 PM	Currently, the character I have that uses political career and court connections is likely to not gain any benefits of them for the next 4 levels when he takes a template to jump from 10 to 14. So, I am not sure it is hugely helpful. And obviously he isn't got the perfect record to go with that overly powerful ability.
Vathelokai 11-15-07, 06:07 PM	The main draw of the political career is that your characers go up in level faster. Maxed out, you can level with 3 wins (I think...). Not so exciting in an action sense, but exciting in a playability sense.
Callix 11-15-07, 06:44 PM	The main reason I've ever considered Political Career is to offset the ally penalties in a Paladin build at low levels. As a side note, it's interesting that the only three classes with both Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty) and Diplomacy as class skills are the Bard, the Telepath, and the Paladin. Eclectic, eh?
hogarth 11-15-07, 06:56 PM	The main reason I've ever considered Political Career is to offset the ally penalties in a Paladin build at low levels. As a side note, it's interesting that the only three classes with both Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty) and Diplomacy as class skills are the Bard, the Telepath, and the Paladin. Eclectic, eh? Don't forget Expert, Human/Elf/Gnome/Half-Dragon Paragon, and Aristocrat (not to mention various prestige classes). :)
Rauul 11-15-07, 07:26 PM	Don't forget Expert, Human/Elf/Gnome/Half-Dragon Paragon, and Aristocrat (not to mention various prestige classes). :) Well to be honest... my Shadow Character has it because i play him as a Political Assassin.. Duel Identities. one the happy go lucky bard... another the Assassin dedicated to over throwing the Council of Gladius.. ((Know thy enemy))
templer10 11-16-07, 01:25 PM	question - does offensive prescience affect Powers that deal ability damage, i.e. - ego whip - the power says it goes +2 to damage rolls and it doesnt spesifiy just Weapon dmg rolls but giving +2 ability damage to each ego whip seems a bit broken.
whitebaron 11-16-07, 01:28 PM	presciences says that you can better aim your hits - which leads me to the conclusion, that it can be only used on rays or similar attacks that actually require an attack roll.
McJarvis 11-16-07, 01:39 PM	question - does offensive prescience affect Powers that deal ability damage, i.e. - ego whip - the power says it goes +2 to damage rolls and it doesnt spesifiy just Weapon dmg rolls but giving +2 ability damage to each ego whip seems a bit broken. By RAW it can be used with spells. In the past(in CoCo) it has even been used with magic missile wands. You'd need a council/courtroom-order to get a revised ruling. And if that ruling comes before the outcome of this fight- marius would like to just concede, since without the prescience offensive he can't do enough cha damage really.
Erithmu 11-16-07, 01:41 PM	question - does offensive prescience affect Powers that deal ability damage, i.e. - ego whip - the power says it goes +2 to damage rolls and it doesnt spesifiy just Weapon dmg rolls but giving +2 ability damage to each ego whip seems a bit broken. Ok .. where is my nerf stick ... *Goes to beat McJ over the head* I told you to bring this up before you decided to use it. *puts nerf stick away* Ok ... now ... RAW ... it should work ... that doesn't mean I like it. RAI ... Damage that comes from a source that requires an attack roll. I don't think that answers your question, but it is probably something that is uglier and needs a good nerfing.
McJarvis 11-16-07, 01:43 PM	Ok .. where is my nerf stick ... *Goes to beat McJ over the head* I told you to bring this up before you decided to use it. *puts nerf stick away* Ok ... now ... RAW ... it should work ... that doesn't mean I like it. RAI ... Damage that comes from a source that requires an attack roll. I don't think that answers your question, but it is probably something that is uglier and needs a good nerfing. As 'Rith points out- I spoke to him while I was writing the tactics. I am 100% behind making a ruling that restricts the power to "things with an attack roll". (Despite this not being in Marius's favor) That just isn't how the power has been handled in the past. [Though I was surprised when he told me that he couldn't remember someone using it with egowhip specifically....]
templer10 11-16-07, 01:45 PM	Ok .. where is my nerf stick ... *Goes to beat McJ over the head* I told you to bring this up before you decided to use it. *puts nerf stick away* Ok ... now ... RAW ... it should work ... that doesn't mean I like it. RAI ... Damage that comes from a source that requires an attack roll. I don't think that answers your question, but it is probably something that is uglier and needs a good nerfing. well - i need a yes or no answer since it might affect the fight.
McJarvis 11-16-07, 01:49 PM	well - i need a yes or no answer since it might affect the fight. I guess "good" for me- without a court ruling the RAW wins out.
Erithmu 11-16-07, 01:51 PM	If it hits the courtroom I can't see that being approved RAW, and it would shift to RAI. McJ is RAI leanings, WB has RAI leanings. T10: if you have any RAI leanings then run it RAI as opposed to RAW. MY TURN! Disarming in a grapple: Can you do it in place of an attack action? (as opposed to the pin method listed in SRD)?
templer10 11-16-07, 01:52 PM	As 'Rith points out- I spoke to him while I was writing the tactics. I am 100% behind making a ruling that restricts the power to "things with an attack roll". (Despite this not being in Marius's favor) That just isn't how the power has been handled in the past. [Though I was surprised when he told me that he couldn't remember someone using it with egowhip specifically....] Since i can't find anything in RAW that prohibits it Ill let you have the damage bonus But i suggest you get it cleared in the courtroom 1 way or another.
McJarvis 11-16-07, 01:52 PM	T10: if you have any RAI leanings then run it RAI as opposed to RAW. I would disapprove of this. My tactics are invalidated without offensive prescience adding damage. I would need a chance to revise tactics or just have Marius forfeit the fight.
Erithmu 11-16-07, 01:54 PM	*sigh* ... Lets do it this way then ... T10: run RAW and let the Dice sort it out. It needs a full Elder ruling and McJ would need to rewrite tactics. I know you have a rough week, so just try to get the fight done and in. @McJ: You. Courtroom. Now.
whitebaron 11-16-07, 01:56 PM	@rith: as this is my idea, i'll just give the basics from the srd i see: As a melee attack, you may attempt to disarm your opponent. [..] Attack Your Opponent: You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. whether those attacks are the same, i really don't know.
Eamane 11-16-07, 01:57 PM	If it hits the courtroom I can't see that being approved RAW, and it would shift to RAI. McJ is RAI leanings, WB has RAI leanings. T10: if you have any RAI leanings then run it RAI as opposed to RAW. MY TURN! Disarming in a grapple: Can you do it in place of an attack action? (as opposed to the pin method listed in SRD)? Grappling is very specific about what you can and cannot do. It has an avenue to disarm someone so that is the only way you can do it while grappling. Plus, RAW and RAI both suggest that you have to pin someone to disarm them. If you could just disarm them normally, why would you go through the trouble of pinning them to disarm them while giving them a bonus? Because it's the only way you can. But I'll double-check the grappling Rules of The Game and update this post if it disagrees. EDIT: Rules of the Game only mentions disarming in a grapple in relation to the Pinning maneuver. Also of note, the section on Monsters/Things with Natural Attacks grappling has been updated to clarify that grapple always works off BAB.
templer10 11-16-07, 02:05 PM	If it hits the courtroom I can't see that being approved RAW, and it would shift to RAI. McJ is RAI leanings, WB has RAI leanings. T10: if you have any RAI leanings then run it RAI as opposed to RAW. MY TURN! Disarming in a grapple: Can you do it in place of an attack action? (as opposed to the pin method listed in SRD)? I dont think so - 1)there is a spesific method for disarmind in regards to grapple which strongly suggests you arent meant to do it any other way. 2)when you grapple you can do pretty spesific things and about attacking it say you can attack with an unarmed attack or light weapon - disarm isnt spesificly those. in any case youll still suffer the -4 to attacking in grapple on the disarm check.
lonewolf 11-16-07, 02:05 PM	pinning just gives you the additional option of disarming a wellsecured object. And the defender gets this bonus only if the item is well secured.
hogarth 11-16-07, 02:12 PM	pinning just gives you the additional option of disarming a wellsecured object. And the defender gets this bonus only if the item is well secured. If a grappler uses the "attack using a light weapon" option during a grapple, I think that attack can be a disarm. Of course it would suffer a -4 penalty (for using a light weapon in a grapple) as well as the normal -4 penalty for using a light weapon to disarm.
Eamane 11-16-07, 02:17 PM	pinning just gives you the additional option of disarming a wellsecured object. And the defender gets this bonus only if the item is well secured. That is a rather important word actually, one I missed. Hmm. Time for more research then; both RotG and SRD specify well secured object for the pinning option, so that seems to be the only thing it is for. The 'attack your opponent' option is a maneuver that takes the place of a normal attack. Many of these maneuvers take the place of an attack (rather than being standard actions or move actions). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these maneuvers in place of each of your attacks, but you use successively lower attack bonuses to resolve any required opposed grapple checks. Similarly, Disarm also does this. However, if something cannot be replaced by two things and the Disarm maneuver does not allow you to sub it in place of other maneuvers. (For example of how this would be wierd; a Wolf would get a free Disarm chance every time it hits with its bite. Strange yet?) This leads to the following RAW. You cannot disarm while grappling, unless you are pinning your opponent and you are trying to remove a well-secured objects. Problems with the RAW; why can you grab your opponents backpack but not their dagger? Good points with the RAW; a character who has a light melee weapon doesn't have to worry about being completely helpless in a grapple, unless their opponent can pin them and do damage in the same turn. Is this also RAI? I'm not sure. If it's a balancing measure, it's pretty obscure.
whitebaron 11-16-07, 02:23 PM	Similarly, Disarm also does this. However, if something cannot be replaced by two things and the Disarm maneuver does not allow you to sub it in place of other maneuvers. (For example of how this would be wierd; a Wolf would get a free Disarm chance every time it hits with its bite. Strange yet?) i don't see how this could work with that interpretation. a wolf cannot disarm in the first place, as he does not make an unarmed strike. note that a disarm is an attack, not an action. you can disarm/trip as a part of your full attack.
Eamane 11-16-07, 02:31 PM	i don't see how this could work with that interpretation. a wolf cannot disarm in the first place, as he does not make an unarmed strike. note that a disarm is an attack, not an action. you can disarm/trip as a part of your full attack. Wolves can make unarmed strikes just fine. They usually don't, but they still can. I never said that Disarm is an action, I said it is a maneuver that replaces an attack. This is exactly what the 'attack your opponent' maneuver while grappling is. This is why you can do both of them multiple times if you have high enough BAB. Basically, the way grappling works is that it moves you into a separate combat system where everything is based off of opposed rolls, rather than set DCs. Then there are a subsection of options that let you do things from the normal system. Some of these are phrased as special attacks/maneuvers (ala Trip, Disarm and initiating Grapple itself) in that they let you perform them multiple times if you have a high BAB. Allowing these special attacks/maneuvers to be further subbed out for for other special attacks/maneuvers is a bad idea. Another example is that if they can be freely subbed out, a bear/big beastie/etc could trip you rather than grapple you with Improved Grab. Of course, I'm making a mountain out of a mole-hill; you should have the ability to disarm someone while in a grapple. Just certain ways of going about it have unpleasant side-effects in other parts of the rules.
whitebaron 11-16-07, 02:35 PM	Another example is that if they can be freely subbed out, a bear/big beastie/etc could trip you rather than grapple you with Improved Grab. Of course, I'm making a mountain out of a mole-hill; you should have the ability to disarm someone while in a grapple. Just certain ways of going about it have unpleasant side-effects in other parts of the rules. well, but that's where we come to the basic problem of your argumentation - it's not subbing out a disarm for a grapple. you cannot use improved trip to grapple someone instead. we are talking about an attack that takes place, which has nothing to do with grappling per se - it just happens while you are grappling, and thus you get -4 on attack.
whitebaron 11-16-07, 06:22 PM	question about blackmarket: can you actually upgrade an item, and only pay the upgraded cost? e.g.: you get an item for gather information +1. (100) then, you'd like one of +2. (400) - do you need to gather info for the full 400, or is the difference - 300 enough?
TelinArtho 11-16-07, 09:02 PM	You can upgrade an item. If the item you are upgrading to is still a custom - you have to pay the custom cost again though. ie - Periapt of Wisdom +1 - 5 credits upgrading to Periapt of Wisdom +2 is 3000gp more - but no credits if you instead upgrade to +3, that's 8000gp more (than the +1) and another 5 credits.
templer10 11-16-07, 09:16 PM	You can upgrade an item. If the item you are upgrading to is still a custom - you have to pay the custom cost again though. ie - Periapt of Wisdom +1 - 5 credits upgrading to Periapt of Wisdom +2 is 3000gp more - but no credits if you instead upgrade to +3, that's 8000gp more (than the +1) and another 5 credits. I think what he wanted to know is this: if You use gather info one time to get say a hat of gather info +1, then at another week get it upgraded to +2, do You need enough in the gather info as if you are getting it already +2, or is enough for the diffrence between +1 to +2 enough.
hogarth 11-16-07, 10:13 PM	question about blackmarket: can you actually upgrade an item, and only pay the upgraded cost? e.g.: you get an item for gather information +1. (100) then, you'd like one of +2. (400) - do you need to gather info for the full 400, or is the difference - 300 enough? I think the difference is enough, but that's just my opinion.
TelinArtho 11-16-07, 10:49 PM	Ah - I see. Yes the difference should be enough.
Vathelokai 11-17-07, 12:09 AM	I'll second that.
whitebaron 11-17-07, 07:06 AM	well, i can live with that answer. half-elf-bard coming up soon;)
Vathelokai 11-17-07, 08:13 AM	If you have the credits, the half elf paragon is the gather info master. link EDIT: now that I look at it, our copy of half elf paragon doesn't have gather info as a class skill?! Perhaps I was wrong about them being the masters....
whitebaron 11-17-07, 08:22 AM	what's more tempting about the half-elf paragon is the +2 to all other charisma based check. +1 more to gather info is not really that much - AND the half-elf paragon not even has gather info on his class list. but i'd already checked that. more likely i'll go straight bard - the charater is planned to be an analogy to an existing character of mine - though i'll never have a bard/dragonmarked heir here. ;)
Durzulgor 11-17-07, 09:25 AM	bard/dragonmarked heir diplomacy-check: 50 *shudders* what Level was that agein? 6? 7? well, we kind'a miss her currently! ;-)
whitebaron 11-17-07, 09:35 AM	diplomacy-check: 50 *shudders* what Level was that agein? 6? 7? well, we kind'a miss her currently! ;-) well, it was level 5 and a very lucky roll. @vath: it does not have it either in the srd. it's strange that you do not have every charisma based skill in it - it's either oversight, or a non-brainer. it should obviously be there. but since we're core here, i can't just simply say, "ok, just do it" - like i do as gm.
Erithmu 11-17-07, 09:58 AM	RE: disarming in a grapple. I got Whitebaron and Eamane's opinions, T10 was unsure. My leaning is to allow it, on the basis of some of whitebaron's explinations (which were formulated beforehand) but I wanted to make sure that I wasn't making an odd ruling. It would be at the -4 being in a grapple (but that is a wash since both are there) and the -4 for unarmed or light weapon. I'm just trying to figure out how to deal w/ the AoO from not having Imp Disarm. So can you make an AoO against someone who you are grappling with (you don't lose your dex to the opposing grappler).
whitebaron 11-17-07, 10:32 AM	if there is one, the AoO should go along the same lines. -4 to hit. light weapon or unarmed - unarmed only if you have improved unarmed (else you dont threaten) but, there is also this line in the srd: "No Threatened Squares: You don’t threaten any squares while grappling." this means you don't even threaten your own square, which is something i cannot understand as a ruling.
Vathelokai 11-17-07, 10:38 AM	I'd allow the disarm with the penalties. You can attack, and disarm is a type of attack. I would give the opposing grappler the aoo with light/natural weapons, but the threatened squares thing is interesting. Perhaps grapplers simply cannot take AoOs, no matter what. At least the srd seems to say that.
hogarth 11-17-07, 10:51 AM	if there is one, the AoO should go along the same lines. -4 to hit. light weapon or unarmed - unarmed only if you have improved unarmed (else you dont threaten) but, there is also this line in the srd: "No Threatened Squares: You don’t threaten any squares while grappling." this means you don't even threaten your own square, which is something i cannot understand as a ruling. That seems pretty straightforward -- a grappling creature can't make AoOs.
hogarth 11-17-07, 10:53 AM	A comment on "Ordo Draconis: Black" -- undead (like allips) are immune to critical hits.
Vathelokai 11-17-07, 12:13 PM	A comment on "Ordo Draconis: Black" -- undead (like allips) are immune to critical hits. How do I always forget that....
Callix 11-18-07, 03:13 AM	With all the changes to the pairings process, I'm not sure who to PM, so I'll just put this here for the meantime. I'm interested in pitlording again. For the next four weeks, I can run two fights a week, stopping before Christmas. After that, I'll be inactive for the better part of two months. Once I know who to PM, I'll notify them when I need to stop.
whitebaron 11-18-07, 04:36 AM	With all the changes to the pairings process, I'm not sure who to PM, so I'll just put this here for the meantime. I'm interested in pitlording again. For the next four weeks, I can run two fights a week, stopping before Christmas. After that, I'll be inactive for the better part of two months. Once I know who to PM, I'll notify them when I need to stop. pm pitlords and telin. this ought to be enough. it's good that you start this week, as i'll be able to do only 1(maybe 2) fight next week due to a board-game-fair where i'll be most of next weekend.
TelinArtho 11-18-07, 10:10 AM	Actually - pitlords should be the only account sent to on a normal basis (and you can never go wrong with that). I would not suggest everyone CCing me on all Pitlords communication (because my inbox gets full frequently already...)
whitebaron 11-18-07, 10:40 AM	Actually - pitlords should be the only account sent to on a normal basis (and you can never go wrong with that). I would not suggest everyone CCing me on all Pitlords communication (because my inbox gets full frequently already...) well as long as mwb is moving, it should be you instead of pitlords-but maybe you could open a temporary thread, or even open the fights of the week earlier - after all, it will be needed - were one could state his presence or absence.
Hirumajoe 11-18-07, 11:09 AM	So say you're in a party of a Scout/Barbarian/Fighter/Deepwarden (think Dwarven Ranger with Con for Dex AC bonuses), a Swordsage/Psychic Warrior, and a tank like Cleric. Ok, so its really starting at ECL 1 so its more like Dwarven Scout 1, Deepwhisper Gnome 1 Swordsage, and Human Cleric 1, but you get the idea. Trapfinding is taken care of by the Scout guy, stealth is taken care of by the sword sage guy, healing is taken care of by the Cleric, and all 3 can melee ok. (Not great at this point as not a one actually have +1 BAB yet...) Currently, the first two have identical charisma (I believe) of 6 and 6. The cleric isn't doing much better 8. No diplomacy or interaction skills among the lot of them. What would you take to compliment them? I'm currently leaning towards a Social and UMD focused Bard 1 or some form of Arcane Gish, like a Warblade 1/Wizard 5/Jade Phoenix Mage X, starting with the Warblade for survivability (d12 hp!). Warblades conviently have Diplomacy as a class skill, and an Able Learner would effectively add it to my class list for all classes as a human. Another option might be to do Warblade 1/Sorcerer 4/Warblade 2/Jade Phoenix Mage X. Just to note, I've never actually played in a campaign with the Tome of Battle, so I don't know how well these things will work out. Thanks for any suggestions and/or comments.
whitebaron 11-18-07, 11:14 AM	all i can say is: i took the bard route. half-elf bard, diplomacy 20 you say? not a problem as i'll get it at ecl2. for power-crazyness later, add in lyric thaumaturg and sublime chord.
templer10 11-18-07, 11:58 AM	question - was it ever decided how much in credits it cost to sell an item at full price - iam pretty regretting that monk's Belt i bought for elrick - the touch AC is nice, but i hate being vulnerable to sunder so much.
templer10 11-18-07, 12:02 PM	Just to note, I've never actually played in a campaign with the Tome of Battle, so I don't know how well these things will work out. Thanks for any suggestions and/or comments. They work VERY well - Althrough you prettmy much need to decide from the start what roll in the party you want to play, a gish (JFM) is Mainly a melee Dmg dealer And he usually doesnt have much if any Battelfield control abilities expected of a real tank. If your going the JFM route i will suggest not taking more then 1 warblade level to start with, you need the caster levels later. p.s. warblade's suffer from a hefty Mad So better hope for a generous point buy and/or rolls (they need high Str, dex, int And Con).
whitebaron 11-18-07, 12:08 PM	another question: mithral shirt has +6 maxdex. so much is clear to me: you don't get more than +6 dex to your ac when wearing mithral shirt. what about touch attacks? an ac 20(10+4+6) mithral chainshirt user is hit by a touch attack. he actually has +7 dex, but is not using it for ac. is his touch ac 16 or 17?
hogarth 11-18-07, 12:11 PM	So say you're in a party of a Scout/Barbarian/Fighter/Deepwarden (think Dwarven Ranger with Con for Dex AC bonuses), a Swordsage/Psychic Warrior, and a tank like Cleric. Ok, so its really starting at ECL 1 so its more like Dwarven Scout 1, Deepwhisper Gnome 1 Swordsage, and Human Cleric 1, but you get the idea. Trapfinding is taken care of by the Scout guy, stealth is taken care of by the sword sage guy, healing is taken care of by the Cleric, and all 3 can melee ok. (Not great at this point as not a one actually have +1 BAB yet...) Currently, the first two have identical charisma (I believe) of 6 and 6. The cleric isn't doing much better 8. No diplomacy or interaction skills among the lot of them. What would you take to compliment them? I'd go with a full caster of some kind who has Diplomacy as a class skill: -UA enchanter variant (social proficiency) -Psion (telepath) -Beguiler -Druid I'm not a big fan of fighter/magic-user mixes if there are other melee fighters available in the party.
Hirumajoe 11-18-07, 01:22 PM	@Whitebaron: Well, I don't know if *that* much Diplomacy is really needed. With just human without any feats focusing on diplomacy, a 16 Cha Bard should have +12 Diplomacy at ecl 2, probably more than enough. Sublime Chord is an interesting late game option. Of course, I have no clue how far this campaign is going to go... @Templer: Yeah, minimizing the non-caster levels is probably best, since he would be the only arcane caster in the group. As for MAD, yeah, Warblades are that way, but then again, Int is a good casting stat and also good for skill points buying me diplomacy. Oh, and it *is* a generous point buy. 36. :) So for that case Str 16 / Dex 14 / Con 14 / Int 16 / Wis 10 / Cha 10 I'd go with a full caster of some kind who has Diplomacy as a class skill: -UA enchanter variant (social proficiency) -Psion (telepath) -Beguiler -Druid I'm not a big fan of fighter/magic-user mixes if there are other melee fighters available in the party. I can see that. I may be focusing on the fact that we're starting at level 1 too much. I also have no clue how long its going to go or what level we're going to reach. But anyways, I'm thinking as a pure caster at this level, my AC is going to be bad, and I'm most likely going to have 6 hp. I.e. one arrow or crossbow bolt from being unconscious or dying. I like the idea of starting with Warblade because that gets me some initial cheap AC (chain shirt and a shield is +6 AC) along with about 14 starting hitpoints. And an additional set of options when my 2-3 spells a day run out (when I get them at level 2). I suppose a Human Psion (Telepath) with Psionic body would have sufficient hit points. The UA Enchanter variant is also kind of interesting gaining bonuses to the social skills. Druid is probably the correct power gaming choice, but it would feel really weird to have the social face to nobles and kings be someone who spends most of his time off in the wilderness communing with animals, you know? I don't think I could pull it off right. Or justify it. Edit: Or maybe I should admit to myself I like Gishes way too much, forget power gaming and just give in... Given the last one I played in an actual campaign was about 9 years ago. Wow, I suddenly feel old.
whitebaron 11-18-07, 01:50 PM	well, so - you don't want to play the charismatic guy/gal, you just want to fill in the niche :) a 16 cha bard would have diplomacy 14 - 5 ranks, 6 synergy, 3 cha. sublime chord is available at ecl10 - midgame. but depending on the group, you might never even start to see midgame.
hogarth 11-18-07, 02:03 PM	I can see that. I may be focusing on the fact that we're starting at level 1 too much. I also have no clue how long its going to go or what level we're going to reach. But anyways, I'm thinking as a pure caster at this level, my AC is going to be bad, and I'm most likely going to have 6 hp. I.e. one arrow or crossbow bolt from being unconscious or dying. I like the idea of starting with Warblade because that gets me some initial cheap AC (chain shirt and a shield is +6 AC) along with about 14 starting hitpoints. And an additional set of options when my 2-3 spells a day run out (when I get them at level 2). Personally, I think a Beguiler (who can wear a chain shirt as well) with 8 hp and the ability to cast Sleep/Color Spray 4 times a day adds more survivability to a first-level party than yet another melee fighter. It depends on what kind of opponents you're fighting, though. EDIT: I forgot one more suggestion. If you don't like the flavor of a druid, you can try a Spirit Shaman instead.
templer10 11-18-07, 02:10 PM	question - was it ever decided how much in credits it cost to sell an item at full price - iam pretty regretting that monk's Belt i bought for elrick - the touch AC is nice, but i hate being vulnerable to sunder so much. Bump - And - i looked in the training Room and the only time i could find someone seeling in full price it Cost 2 Credits/ecl diffrence in which the item was bought - i.e - Bulger here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14038055&postcount=621)Bought an item originally at ECL 3 and sold it at full price at ECL 7 for 8 credits - can i assume it is the correct formula?
lonewolf 11-18-07, 05:31 PM	In my second TT group we have a Warblade1/Telepath4/ElocatorXX gish. She works quite well, but relies heavy on custom made powers. dunno if she could work equally well without them.
McJarvis 11-19-07, 10:07 AM	Edit: Or maybe I should admit to myself I like Gishes way too much, forget power gaming and just give in... Given the last one I played in an actual campaign was about 9 years ago. Wow, I suddenly feel old. You could try out a Paladin2/Sorc4/EK build :)
Erithmu 11-19-07, 10:08 AM	You could try out a Paladin2/Sorc4/EK build :) You mean Sorc 6 ... Can't even get his pre-reqs right ... sad ...
McJarvis 11-19-07, 10:22 AM	You mean Sorc 6 ... Can't even get his pre-reqs right ... sad ... :(
TelinArtho 11-19-07, 11:26 AM	Bump - And - i looked in the training Room and the only time i could find someone seeling in full price it Cost 2 Credits/ecl diffrence in which the item was bought - i.e - Bulger here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14038055&postcount=621)Bought an item originally at ECL 3 and sold it at full price at ECL 7 for 8 credits - can i assume it is the correct formula? For the most part - yes.
Hirumajoe 11-19-07, 11:27 AM	McJarvis was clearly thinking Spellsword rather than Eldritch Knight. A Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4 would qualify for Spellsword. Which then taken for 3 levels would let you qualify for Eldritch Knight - so the base combination of Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4 isn't a bad one. Amusingly enough, that would in fact get you Diplomacy, Sense Motive and Bluff as class skills between the two. He'd be a rather bad caster though. Losing 4 spell caster levels (on a Sorcerer no less). Practiced caster would bring your caster levels up to maximum though. Stats would be MAD as all heck as well, since he'd need skill points... Something like: S 14 D 14 C 14 I 14 W 10 C 16 Human with Able Learner would probably be able to keep up with the social end of things. +7 starting Diplomacy, +10 at level 2, with +14 around level 4. But the biggest problem might the Chaotic tendencies of some of the other party members. @Hogarth: Unfortunately, I don't know all that much about the Beguiler, mostly because its apparently in the PhB2, which I don't have (and I don't think McJarvis has - which rules it out). Anyways, thanks for all the suggestions, they've given me plenty to consider. Now I just need to figure out what I want emphasize, and which ones I can come up with a decent background and personality for...
TelinArtho 11-19-07, 11:29 AM	I'm not sure about this one. The contingent summoning is based off of Contingency - so technically this is a question about contingency. Kraegin advanced last fight to ECL11. He has a CL11, but gets a +1 CL for evil spells - for a total of 12. Contingency (and by extension, Contingent Summoning) states that the maximum spell level is 1/3rd of the caster's caster level. So, can Kraegin prepare a contingent SMIV as long as he chooses an evil creature (as if he would choose anything but an evil creature...)? I believe he should be able to - but would rather make sure I have it right before I make an assumption...
McJarvis 11-19-07, 11:32 AM	McJarvis was clearly thinking Spellsword rather than Eldritch Knight. <_< >_> yeah...that was it. Spellsword....definately not me making a prereq mistake. ;) I'm a pretty big fan of arcane gishes. The biggest challenge[IMO] is a spell selection that won't kill you buff-sequence wise. With the goal of something that doesn't require buffing, uses all of its spells, and primarily uses a melee or ranged weapon I usually do something involving power attack/wraith strike/arcane strike. Add in long lasting buffs, spell storing weaponry at appropraite levels, etc for flavor and it's set. Sorcerer Paladin/EK's can do pretty well with this. [one of the reasons I appreciate wraith strike so much, despite it's obviously being overpowered, is it de-values high level spells- so full caster levels are not necessary]
whitebaron 11-19-07, 11:39 AM	I'm not sure about this one. The contingent summoning is based off of Contingency - so technically this is a question about contingency. Kraegin advanced last fight to ECL11. He has a CL11, but gets a +1 CL for evil spells - for a total of 12. Contingency (and by extension, Contingent Summoning) states that the maximum spell level is 1/3rd of the caster's caster level. So, can Kraegin prepare a contingent SMIV as long as he chooses an evil creature (as if he would choose anything but an evil creature...)? I believe he should be able to - but would rather make sure I have it right before I make an assumption... the whole question here is whether it's your caster level for contingency, or your caster level for SMV. i'd rules as a dm, that it has to be the CL used for contingency, as you cannot cast it at CL12.
Hirumajoe 11-19-07, 11:56 AM	I'm a pretty big fan of arcane gishes. The biggest challenge[IMO] is a spell selection that won't kill you buff-sequence wise. With the goal of something that doesn't require buffing, uses all of its spells, and primarily uses a melee or ranged weapon I usually do something involving power attack/wraith strike/arcane strike. Add in long lasting buffs, spell storing weaponry at appropraite levels, etc for flavor and it's set. Sorcerer Paladin/EK's can do pretty well with this. [one of the reasons I appreciate wraith strike so much, despite it's obviously being overpowered, is it de-values high level spells- so full caster levels are not necessary] *Blink*, *Blink*. As the GM, are you telling me to use wraithstrike? I mean the use of that spell hadn't even crossed my mind (I think I may have exorcised it from my memory...)
McJarvis 11-19-07, 12:55 PM	*Blink*, *Blink*. As the GM, are you telling me to use wraithstrike? I mean the use of that spell hadn't even crossed my mind (I think I may have exorcised it from my memory...) I'm not going to "tell" you how to do your character: I'm just saying that wraithstrike is one of my favorite spells :). [I know I don't *always* use it- for instance when I did a semi-exalted paladin type sorc I didn't want something as evil sounding as "wraith strike" in my char concept, so I did polymorphing into angels instead]
Hirumajoe 11-19-07, 01:53 PM	I'm not going to "tell" you how to do your character: I'm just saying that wraithstrike is one of my favorite spells :). [I know I don't *always* use it- for instance when I did a semi-exalted paladin type sorc I didn't want something as evil sounding as "wraith strike" in my char concept, so I did polymorphing into angels instead] Sorry, that came out all wrong. I'm just amused that the GM suggested a spell that by most counts is rather broken. The nearest equivalent being something like a Quickened True Strike (5th level vs 2nd level). However, given this fact, I think you may have sold me on the Warrior + Caster as opposed to a Bard or straight caster like Druid or what not... Its really too bad the Paladin of Freedom exchanges Diplomacy for Bluff, otherwise I could probably work a Paladin of Freedom 2/Sorcerer 4/Gish stuff. Full Bluff, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive with high charisma. All in the cause of Chaos. Erm, I mean good. Yeah. But Warblade 1/Wizard 5/Jade Phoenix Mage X should be sufficient I think.
McJarvis 11-19-07, 01:57 PM	Sorry, that came out all wrong. I'm just amused that the GM suggested a spell that by most counts is rather broken. Not that D&D is an unbroken system in the first place....I consider Wraith Strike as a good spell for RP purposes, actually. When I use it in my gishes I can step away and stop focusing all my spells on power gaming and throw in spells for "fun" and whatnot. Of course, I'm generally assuming that you all are responsible/mature gamers and aren't going to turn this campaign into a mere power-gaming excercise. :) [and it is probably not banned at tables I visit because of my lack of abuse...I only do an alpha-strike on a monster about once a month or so]
MindWandererB 11-19-07, 03:36 PM	Update from my end: I'm using my wife's computer at the moment, because mine is still back at my old place. And she hates it when I use her computer for CoCo. Not to mention, there's still a lot of busy work I'd be better off doing right now. So don't count on me being able to fulfil my usual duties for at least a few days more--which means that Telin is still on the hook for doing pairings. Sorry. At least we got our internet working. As of about half an hour ago. Stupid Verizon.
TelinArtho 11-19-07, 03:55 PM	Well - I know now that Wednesday is absolutely not an option right now. As it is - I'm looking at working straight through Thanksgiving, Friday, Saturday and Sunday on the project I've got. I will not be able to manage pairings as a result.
Durzulgor 11-19-07, 07:09 PM	Active-tag? Could anyone tell me what I have to do, to get my active-tag back? I updated my character-sheet to "ready for 21st", but I'm still missing the fight data for my first fight, so I'm not quite comfi with that.
Rauul 11-19-07, 08:36 PM	Active-tag? Could anyone tell me what I have to do, to get my active-tag back? I updated my character-sheet to "ready for 21st", but I'm still missing the fight data for my first fight, so I'm not quite comfi with that. Umm you shouldn't of updated your character sheet till the fight has been run.. i am hoping to get it run before deadline.. my internet connection is spotty at best.. but i should be able to get my fights run.. if i can keep using the Library computer....
Vathelokai 11-19-07, 09:12 PM	Active-tag? Could anyone tell me what I have to do, to get my active-tag back? I updated my character-sheet to "ready for 21st", but I'm still missing the fight data for my first fight, so I'm not quite comfi with that. This last pairings was not done by our normal GM (MindWandererB). He is the only one who has access to that post right now, so most likely it was removed some time ago and just hasn't been updated. Send a PM to 'Pitlords' and it will be fixed before next pairings.
CrazyArtificer 11-20-07, 06:36 AM	Hi there.. I hope I'm not in the wrong place :) I am creating a new gladiator and I have a few questions. I read the rules but I still have a few doubts. 1) Let's say I use a pearl of power. Do I add the appropriate SL to the total SL expendable in a fight? 2) Can I use more than one pearl of power? 3) Is my familiar (not improved) counted as an ally? I read the allies section and everything is mentioned but a familiar. 4) I have read that certain craft skills (for example alchemy) can't be used to make money. Fine. You craft things at 1/2 normale price. Fine again. What if I want to sell those at more than 1/2? Can I do that? If not then I'll drop a few craft skills I chose. 5) Do I pay money for scribing spells in my spellbook? Apparently not. 6) Can I hire a spellcaster to cast a spell needed to craft a woundrous item?
hogarth 11-20-07, 06:47 AM	Hi there.. I hope I'm not in the wrong place :) I am creating a new gladiator and I have a few questions. I read the rules but I still have a few doubts. 1) Let's say I use a pearl of power. Do I add the appropriate SL to the total SL expendable in a fight? 2) Can I use more than one pearl of power? 3) Is my familiar (not improved) counted as an ally? I read the allies section and everything is mentioned but a familiar. 4) I have read that certain craft skills (for example alchemy) can't be used to make money. Fine. You craft things at 1/2 normale price. Fine again. What if I want to sell those at more than 1/2? Can I do that? If not then I'll drop a few craft skills I chose. 5) Do I pay money for scribing spells in my spellbook? Apparently not. 6) Can I hire a spellcaster to cast a spell needed to craft a woundrous item? 1) If you use a Pearl of Power, you add that one specific recovered spell to the number useable in your next fight(s). 2) Sure, some people use lots! 3) A familiar is a class ally, so it doesn't count against rewards or your total number of allies you can bring to a fight. However, it's still an ally for purposes of being scared away with Intimidate or attacked with the Assassinate skill package (for instance). 4) You can sell things at more than 1/2 value only if you have the Sell Item skill package AFAIK). If you use Sell Item, then it's true that you can effectively make money crafting items and selling them. 5) Yes, other than the "free" spells you get from levels in wizard (your beginning spellbook containing cantrips and first level spells, plus 2 new spells every time you go up a level) you need to pay scribing costs. 6) No. NPCs cannot help you craft items in any way.
Salrantol 11-20-07, 06:57 AM	1) Let's say I use a pearl of power. Do I add the appropriate SL to the total SL expendable in a fight?I am pretty sure you do.2) Can I use more than one pearl of power?Yes.3) Is my familiar (not improved) counted as an ally? I read the allies section and everything is mentioned but a familiar.Class allies, excepting thralls, do not count as allies for purpose of XP/gp penalties. Make sure to prebuff him if he's coming with.4) I have read that certain craft skills (for example alchemy) can't be used to make money. Fine. You craft things at 1/2 normale price. Fine again. What if I want to sell those at more than 1/2? Can I do that? If not then I'll drop a few craft skills I chose.You can use the Sell Item skill use to do so. Otherwise, the selling price is 1/2 market.5) Do I pay money for scribing spells in my spellbook? Apparently not.You get 3+INT mod as a 1st-level wizard and 2 at each other level free. All other spells you must either buy a scroll or pay to use an NPC wizards' spellbook to copy it, and then pay all costs associated with the copying.6) Can I hire a spellcaster to cast a spell needed to craft a woundrous item?This one I disagree with, but no. You can't even use a scroll to cast spells you can cast from scrolls but not memory (i.e. sorcerers) to fulfill the requirements. I hope I was helpful. Salrantol :w:
lonewolf 11-20-07, 07:19 AM	You can't even use a scroll to cast spells you can cast from scrolls but not memory (i.e. sorcerers) to fulfill the requirements. I disagree on this specific point. Note that all items have prerequesitesin their descriptions. These prerequesites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time they take the form of spells that must be known by the item´s creator(although access through another magic item or another spellcaster is allowed). CoCo has a specific houserule preventing the use of another spellcaster to create magic items, but nothing prevents you to buy a scroll and use it to create a magical item, as long as you can actually cast the spell from the scroll. A good example would also be a cleric with the magic domain.
CrazyArtificer 11-20-07, 07:21 AM	1) If you use a Pearl of Power, you add that one specific recovered spell to the number useable in your next fight(s). ok. Let me see If I get it right. Say I have 9 SL to use (for simplicity). I have zero pearls, so I can use 3 SL on each fight. Now, suppose that I have 3 level 1 pearls (simplicity again). If I read it correctly, I would still have 3 SL on the first fight to use, but if I'd use 2 of them to recall 2 SL (assuming that I cast just 1st level spells) I could use 4 SL on the second fight, right? Or I could use 4 SL right from the first fight? (9+3 pearls/3) 5) Yes, other than the "free" spells you get from levels in wizard (your beginning spellbook containing cantrips and first level spells, plus 2 new spells every time you go up a level) you need to pay scribing costs. Which lead to a banal question: can I have more than one spellbook? This one I disagree with, but no. You can't even use a scroll to cast spells you can cast from scrolls but not memory (i.e. sorcerers) to fulfill the requirements. I hope I was helpful. Salrantol :w: I agree that it seems pretty silly that an NPC can cast Barkskin on me for a fee, but he gets incredibly scared if I ask him to cast in on an amulet while I'm working on it. You have been both very helpful, thanks :)
lonewolf 11-20-07, 07:26 AM	@CrazyArtificer: Its a bit more complicated than that. You have 3 spells per combat. If you recall a used spell you are free to cast that specific spell whenever you want(it doesnt count for that spell-cap). So you could even cast 5 spells in your first fight if you recall those spells during the fight and use those specific spells again.
CrazyArtificer 11-20-07, 07:50 AM	Thanks lonewolf, I got it. Is there any way to have a final word on the use of scrolls to create items?
mucki 11-20-07, 08:11 AM	In fact I'd like input from an elder on the scroll for crafting issue too, since that might help solve the teams current prison violation :)
hogarth 11-20-07, 08:36 AM	ok. Let me see If I get it right. Say I have 9 SL to use (for simplicity). I have zero pearls, so I can use 3 SL on each fight. Now, suppose that I have 3 level 1 pearls (simplicity again). If I read it correctly, I would still have 3 SL on the first fight to use, but if I'd use 2 of them to recall 2 SL (assuming that I cast just 1st level spells) I could use 4 SL on the second fight, right? Or I could use 4 SL right from the first fight? (9+3 pearls/3) Each pearl is a 1/day item, so you can use each pearl once (1/3, rounded up) in any fight. So if you wanted, you could use all three pearls in the first fight. Suppose you cast three spells in your first fight (Mage Armor, Magic Missile & Shocking Grasp). Then you can recover all three spells and cast Magic Missile again during Fight #1 (for example). And for your next fight, your quota would be "3 SL + Mage Armor + Shocking Grasp" (not "5 SL of anything I want"). Which lead to a banal question: can I have more than one spellbook? Sure, as long as you pay for it. Or you could buy a Boccob's Blessed Book (once you're able to afford it). I agree that it seems pretty silly that an NPC can cast Barkskin on me for a fee, but he gets incredibly scared if I ask him to cast in on an amulet while I'm working on it. There are a variety of silly rules here. Take your pick! Welcome to the Core Coliseum.
CrazyArtificer 11-20-07, 08:45 AM	Sure, as long as you pay for it. Or you could buy a Boccob's Blessed Book (once you're able to afford it). Got it.. now, if I recall the rules correctly (it's 4 years since a played a wizard..) I can have just one "attuned" spellbok.. would I need spellcraft checks to prepare from one of the 2 books? There are a variety of silly rules here. Take your pick! Welcome to the Core Coliseum. Silly rules are part of the life :) Thanks for the warm welcome
whitebaron 11-20-07, 10:16 AM	afaik, you can have any number of spellbooks written by yourself, and be perfectly fine with it. the problems start when you try to use a spellbook another wizard has written. @telin/mwb/elders: will there be pairings this week, and if so: who's gonna make them? i need to remove at least 2 from my fights (for this week only)
templer10 11-20-07, 11:28 AM	Questio to make sure- In a staff - you dont need any of the spells in it to use 1 charge t ouse them - correct? you can have all the spells use 2 charges? Iam asking since iam in the procsses of writing up a custom staff for elrick and i want to make sure. p.s - in order to stay away from anything 2 controvorsial iam sticking to a 2 charge/spell things and not those all famous 50 charges/1 spell things.
McJarvis 11-20-07, 01:44 PM	afaik, you can have any number of spellbooks written by yourself, and be perfectly fine with it. the problems start when you try to use a spellbook another wizard has written. @telin/mwb/elders: will there be pairings this week, and if so: who's gonna make them? i need to remove at least 2 from my fights (for this week only) I think we usually shut down for the "big" US holidays. I know I'll be out of commission for the break. [catching up on assassin's creed before going out and getting Mass Effect- and of course my ritual Orange Box Team-Fort 2 games.....]
TelinArtho 11-20-07, 01:48 PM	MWB and myself are both unavailable for pairings - so unless Sauro wants to step up for it (or one of the other elders) - it probably just won't happen. A break wouldn't be bad for me anyway - my week sucks right now...
CrazyArtificer 11-20-07, 01:51 PM	Another doubt (sorry but I forgot it in my previous post). Are alchemical items considered expendables?
Eamane 11-20-07, 01:55 PM	Another doubt (sorry but I forgot it in my previous post). Are alchemical items considered expendables? Nope. Expendables are very specifically defined as; Potions, Scrolls, Powerstones and Tattoos. Though there was some noise about expanding the definition to include one-shot wonderous items, I'd have to double-check on those. But if it's non-magical, it's definitely not an expendable.
CrazyArtificer 11-20-07, 02:05 PM	Nope. Expendables are very specifically defined as; Potions, Scrolls, Powerstones and Tattoos. Though there was some noise about expanding the definition to include one-shot wonderous items, I'd have to double-check on those. But if it's non-magical, it's definitely not an expendable. Thanks, that clears my doubt. Also, I guess you can take 10 on Spellcraft when copying spell from scrolls, right?
Eamane 11-20-07, 02:11 PM	Thanks, that clears my doubt. Also, I guess you can take 10 on Spellcraft when copying spell from scrolls, right? Hmm. Actually, the Rules of Gladius are silent on the matter. There is a rather large penalty for failing (cant attempt to learn the spell until you raise Spellcraft; I.E: gain a level). But regardless, it would come down to either being a take 10 or take 20, yes. Which one it is determines how much spellcraft you absolutely need but I would recommend maxxing spellcraft out anyways.
CrazyArtificer 11-20-07, 02:19 PM	Hmm. Actually, the Rules of Gladius are silent on the matter. There is a rather large penalty for failing (cant attempt to learn the spell until you raise Spellcraft; I.E: gain a level). But regardless, it would come down to either being a take 10 or take 20, yes. Which one it is determines how much spellcraft you absolutely need but I would recommend maxxing spellcraft out anyways. Sure, but I'm asking since I'm starting at lvl 3.. I would need a couple more spells, and my Spellcraft check is +12. Copying a lvl 1 spell is a DC 16 so if I can take 10 it's a success, otherwise I should roll.
Salrantol 11-20-07, 02:31 PM	CoCo has a specific houserule preventing the use of another spellcaster to create magic items, but nothing prevents you to buy a scroll and use it to create a magical item, as long as you can actually cast the spell from the scroll. A good example would also be a cleric with the magic domain.That's odd, the last time this came up, I said the same thing and was told multiple times there was a house rule preventing it. Looking now, though, I am unable to find it.
Eamane 11-20-07, 02:34 PM	@Sal I remember the same thing, actually. For exactly the same reason; that a Cleric with Magic Domain shouldn't be able to craft everything while no one else can, not even those with spell-casting allies. Under the current rules, if that is how they are there are many things that only Clerics with Magic Domain can create.
lonewolf 11-20-07, 03:09 PM	Anyway, thats how the rules are at the moment. If you guys think that there should be a house rule, go to the Council and propose one. Until such a house rule exists using a scroll to craft another magical item is possible.
whitebaron 11-20-07, 03:51 PM	MWB and myself are both unavailable for pairings - so unless Sauro wants to step up for it (or one of the other elders) - it probably just won't happen. as things stand(i am sick and have the whole day for doing coco-things), and lonewolf suggested, i could actually do pairings. - but, i feel strongly positive about sitting another week out, just to get some bits straight in the courtroom before a new week starts. and i think it would do the stability of the system no good if pairings were made by another person each week. Also, with thanksgiving coming up, the pitlords from the US might also strongly decrease. we've already got some late/possible held over fights, which would even more increase the pitlord load. so: just lets call it coco-thanksgiving, with free pumpkins for all gladiators!
TelinArtho 11-20-07, 05:40 PM	Anyway, thats how the rules are at the moment. If you guys think that there should be a house rule, go to the Council and propose one. Until such a house rule exists using a scroll to craft another magical item is possible. No: The Craft Feats This section includes all craft feats for spellcasters (scrolls, potions, arms & armor, rods, staffs, wands, rings, wondrous items, and constructs) as well as those equivalents for psionic manifesters (tattoos, powerstones, dorjes, cognizance crystals, psicrowns, universal items, and psionic constructs). In order to craft a magic or psionic item, you must have the appropriate feat and any spell or power mentioned as necessary in the items entry. However, you do not have to have the caster level mentioned in the item's entry (unless a caster level is specifically mentioned as a requirement). Crafting follows the core rules as described in the DMG/XPH in the respective feat description. You have to pay 1/2 of the market price in raw materials; you never lose XP when crafting.
lonewolf 11-20-07, 06:15 PM	If that is supposed to override RAW it is not done very clearly and it belings in the houserule section of CoCo.
whitebaron 11-20-07, 06:43 PM	the intent of the rule might be to disallow scrolls, the wording is not exactly so. Note that Salrantol looked over the rules and didn't find it either. -> a clarification in the rules would be needed. i can understand why you would not want npc spellcasters to cast spells (basically anyone with the feat and 1 cl could create items - and would!), but i don't get it why you should not be allowed to use scrolls. got any explanations on this at hand?
Hirumajoe 11-20-07, 08:30 PM	the intent of the rule might be to disallow scrolls, the wording is not exactly so. Note that Salrantol looked over the rules and didn't find it either. -> a clarification in the rules would be needed. i can understand why you would not want npc spellcasters to cast spells (basically anyone with the feat and 1 cl could create items - and would!), but i don't get it why you should not be allowed to use scrolls. got any explanations on this at hand? Actually, you still need CL to meet the feat requirements so CL 1 wouldn't work except for crafting scrolls. Which seems kinda silly to be crafting with scrolls. :) Its interesting to note, that it becomes pointless to craft with scrolls if the spell in question is 5th level or higher, simply because of the cost of the scroll. You can simply buy it cheaper. If you're in favor of preventing NPC casting (to prevent characters from just crafting everything) you should also be in favor of preventing crafting from scrolls. Since it prevents characters from just crafting everything. Certainly, it applies to a much smaller subset, say Magic Domain Clerics and UMD Bards for example, but magic item crafting already only applies to a smaller subset of the entire CoCo, namely casters. I'm guessing it was originally a balance consideration to prevent Magic Domain Clerics from not only using every expendable in the book, but also crafting every single magic item they own. However, I'm neither an Elder, nor been around that long, so this is just my two cents. :)
Vathelokai 11-20-07, 10:32 PM	Under the current rules, if that is how they are there are many things that only Clerics with Magic Domain can create.Actually, Mystic Thurges (My new ecl3 Kii is designed to do just that). On crafting with scrolls: I agree that the wording should be cleared up.
TelinArtho 11-20-07, 11:40 PM	Sometimes I feel like my old buddy NiQil... Everyone - please do take a look in the house rules and clarifications. I can't update them of course, but the information stored therein is still valid: Q: How does the crafting of magical/psionic items work in CoCo? A: In the item description, just before the feat necessary to craft the item, there is a CL listing. This CL listing is ignored, as per the 3.5 FAQ (this portion is subject to change at a later date, if necessary). Anything listed after the feat needed to make the item is required. You must be able to cast any necessary spells yourself (i.e. you cannot use items or NPC services to do so), and any other requirements (such as creater must be x-level or creater must be x-alignment, etc) must be met.
Vathelokai 11-21-07, 12:00 AM	Yeah, like that :) I'm starting to think we should incorporate the court rulings and such into the rules thread somehow.
MindWandererB 11-21-07, 01:33 AM	Yeah, like that :) I'm starting to think we should incorporate the court rulings and such into the rules thread somehow. Many of them, yeah. I was thinking of re-doing the entire rules thread, with posts reserved for Prisonlords, Guildlords, etc., but now that shared accounts are verboten, that's fairly pointless. Okay, so no pairings tomorrow. We often have to cancel the week of Thanksgiving anyway due to lack of pitlords. However, I now have my computer set up in my new place, so I'll update the roster as soon as I get caught up with all the threads.
mucki 11-21-07, 04:22 AM	welcome back :)
CrazyArtificer 11-21-07, 06:05 AM	Thanks to the elders for pointing it out. I somehow missed that paragraph.
whitebaron 11-22-07, 01:54 AM	Happy Thanksgiving to all the US-based CoCo population! Have a good break, refuel your pitlording tanks, take care of your family, and come back on monday fresh and happy. :)
Callix 11-22-07, 04:15 AM	And Happy Election to all you Aussies.... Oh, wait. That's just me :). Then Happy Thanksgiving, y'all!
whitebaron 11-22-07, 10:28 AM	I don't know if its possible within CoCo to do this, but i'd like to propose a contest: 1) Build the most broken custom magic item you can imagine, with a cost of up to 500 GP. 2) Build the most broken custom magic item you can imagine, with a cost of up to 1000 GP. 3) Build the most broken custom magic item you can imagine, with a cost of up to 2000 GP. Those items should not obviously be broken, they should have to pass a blackmarket approval in CoCo. examples of obviously broken items in the arena: bag of tricks, lower uses/day. Nettlesong (sorry to use that as an example) if it had worked as intended. The winner will get 5°, charged from my personal account. ah, yes, forgot - deadline : the weekend before christmas. ---- another note on the continous ring of true strike always noted as a broken custom item: as true strike has no "real" duration, not even 1 round, it cannot be made as a continous item. and if it's with command word, it's much less broken. i have to note on this too, that there is no rule on creating items based on instantaneous spells other than charged items. there are some spells in the srd that are used in custom items, like dimension door / cape of the mountebank. to take the calculation of those items for customs seems to be off limits - as they have no multiplier for duration. in the capes example: cl7*sl4*1800(command word)/5. this is far better than anything you could get using custom item-creation rules.
lonewolf 11-22-07, 10:53 AM	On Wednesday, November 28th, 2007, between the hours of 8:00 AM and 12:00 PM PDT, our Ops department will be performing extensive network maintenance . Both the forums and Gleemax will be off line during this maintance. We will get the forums & Gleemax back up as soon as possible. Because of this I suggest that we do next pairings next tuesday. more time for everyone to write tactics and because we missed this weeks pairings still more than enough time for all pitlords to finish their still unfinished fights.
Hirumajoe 11-22-07, 11:54 AM	I don't know if its possible within CoCo to do this, but i'd like to propose a contest: 1) Build the most broken custom magic item you can imagine, with a cost of up to 500 GP. 2) Build the most broken custom magic item you can imagine, with a cost of up to 1000 GP. 3) Build the most broken custom magic item you can imagine, with a cost of up to 2000 GP. Those items should not obviously be broken, they should have to pass a blackmarket approval in CoCo. examples of obviously broken items in the arena: bag of tricks, lower uses/day. Nettlesong (sorry to use that as an example) if it had worked as intended. The winner will get 5°, charged from my personal account. ah, yes, forgot - deadline : the weekend before christmas. ---- another note on the continous ring of true strike always noted as a broken custom item: as true strike has no "real" duration, not even 1 round, it cannot be made as a continous item. and if it's with command word, it's much less broken. i have to note on this too, that there is no rule on creating items based on instantaneous spells other than charged items. there are some spells in the srd that are used in custom items, like dimension door / cape of the mountebank. to take the calculation of those items for customs seems to be off limits - as they have no multiplier for duration. in the capes example: cl7*sl4*1800(command word)/5. this is far better than anything you could get using custom item-creation rules. Interesting contest, but I'm confused. If it has to pass the black market approval process, which by definition rejects broken items (or tries to), how can the item be the most broken? I think you're going to need a somewhat better definition of "broken" (or I think what you really mean is "increases the gladiators success by the largest amount"). Is broken something which helps you the most against all gladiators? Something which helps you the most against straight casters? Something that helps you the most against Druids? Or is broken simply more powerful than something you can get without credits? Or more powerful than *anything* you could get without credits? (In which case anything which just casts spells is out, since a character could always just buy scrolls...) Does it have to help all gladiators or just one particular type of build? Is something which just defeats Rogues outright more broken than something which gives you a fighting chance against casters? I just would like a bit more clearer criteria before I start "crafting" something up. :) ------------------ Just a note in regards to true strike, just because the duration box says "See text", doesn't mean it doesn't last 1 round or more. The text itself says "Your next single attack roll (if it is made before the end of the next round) gains a +20 insight bonus." Before the end of next round is actually slightly longer than 1 round. A 1 round duration would end before the start of your next turn. It was simply more elegant and clearer to write it that way rather then "Duration: 1 round + your next action or until discharged." Otherwise, Kai Engel lost his fight this week, because the +20 insight bonus didn't last longer than 1 round and would never have affected his attacks... :D Also if you go to here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm) (or your SRD location of choice) and look at the lines of Command word - Spell level1 × caster level × 1,800 gp - Cape of the mountebank and Charges per day - Divide by (5 divided by charges per day) - Boots of teleportation That tells you exactly how to make a 1/day item which is the formula you listed. You'll also note on that page, the duration multiplier doesn't apply to command word items, only continuous items. The Cape of the Montebank is thus appropriately priced since its usable once a day (except for the fact that they list it as CL 9 but used a CL 7 in the pricing, but oh well...). Or maybe I'm misunderstanding what you intended to say. My apologies if thats so. The only instantaneous item with unlimited uses per day I can think of is the Ring of Elemental Command, Fire. Which has burning hands usable at will. Although working out the cost from that might be a tad hard. -------------- Anyways, happy Thanksgiving to those in the U.S., and happy break from the CoCo for everyone else. :)
MindWandererB 11-23-07, 01:02 AM	Because of this I suggest that we do next pairings next tuesday. more time for everyone to write tactics and because we missed this weeks pairings still more than enough time for all pitlords to finish their still unfinished fights. I don't really see the need; 12 PM PDT is our deadline. It just means that the "effective" deadline is 4 hours earlier than usual. Why rock the boat when we don't have to? (Besides... I may need the time to get completely caught up.)
mucki 11-23-07, 07:33 AM	Interesting contest, but I'm confused. If it has to pass the black market approval process, which by definition rejects broken items (or tries to), how can the item be the most broken? I think you're going to need a somewhat better definition of "broken" (or I think what you really mean is "increases the gladiators success by the largest amount"). Tbh, for the sake of seeing how big the problem actually is it might be useful to just ignore the fact that those items might be ruled out and just see how broken it can actually get with those amounts of money (which are not too high for magic items). And yes, I think "increases the gladiators success by the largest amount" would be the best description of "broken" in that case.
mucki 11-23-07, 07:42 AM	I don't really see the need; 12 PM PDT is our deadline. It just means that the "effective" deadline is 4 hours earlier than usual. Why rock the boat when we don't have to? (Besides... I may need the time to get completely caught up.) Hmm, after i got myself needlessly confused let me just repost the times here in 24h format and central european timezone. It might be 1h off since PDT implies daylight savings time, but according to the internet it should be off already. These times assume it is actually PST: board is down from 17:00 until 21:00 (not 09:00 next morning) official deadline: 21:00 seriously, why is 12PM not actually written 12AM, i mean it comes right after 11AM .... :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:
hogarth 11-23-07, 08:54 AM	seriously, why is 12PM not actually written 12AM, i mean it comes right after 11AM .... :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: I always thought that was confusing, too; it should really be 0:00 p.m. (zero hours "post meridiem" or "after the midpoint of the day"), not 12:00 p.m.
whitebaron 11-23-07, 09:14 AM	well, i guess this is due to some very intelligent person quite a long way back. ;) i'll stick to 0000-2359 though - makes things much easier. @joe: i just checked. you're right on that one. i'm wondering why they did this on another thought: if you take things very literally from the raw, you cannot make a continous ring of true strike at all. you can only make things permanent with a rounds/level duration. so you cannot make a permanent divine favor, or resistance, as they have fixed durations. the only spells applicable with fixed durations are those with rounds/level minutes/level 10minutes/level or 24 hours or greater. you cannot make spells like mage armor permanent, which is hours/level. the only spell i'm currently aware of posing a problem if using it like this (there are for sure more than that) is shield. rounds/level, obviously to good for its 8k-cost.
Vathelokai 11-23-07, 11:36 AM	the only spell i'm currently aware of posing a problem if using it like this (there are for sure more than that) is shield. rounds/level, obviously to good for its 8k-cost. The way I understand it, you also have to add the price of the +4 shield bonus. Although, 8K for immunity to magic missiles is .... I dunno... 5 brooch of shielding or 1 custom item. Might be balanced. As for hour per level: the reason it is not in the footnote is because that it is the default. hour/lv is x1, ie what is represented on the chart before the footnote.
whitebaron 11-23-07, 12:12 PM	@vath: well, i knew i missed something. still, to be devil's advocate - it's not within the description that you can make an hours/level spell with x1, so you could also figure from this that every spell that is not timed, could be made permanent/continous. so a spell with instantaneous, could be continous... again, this is just using the words of the srd against itself. i am not sure whether it's stated more clearly in the dmg, though. about the shield bonus: that's not necessary, as it just goes with spell-level. that's why raw, some items you could make quite cheaply are not allowed in coco, and in not many table-top games either.
whitebaron 11-23-07, 05:23 PM	various questions on skill packages... a) discount: can you get a discount for the same item twice, and get only the difference in money? (like: first discount at ecl3, with like 7%, second discount at ecl 8 with 10%?) b) sell+discount. if you sell a discounted item, do you still get the percentage depending on its original price?
hogarth 11-24-07, 07:43 AM	various questions on skill packages... a) discount: can you get a discount for the same item twice, and get only the difference in money? (like: first discount at ecl3, with like 7%, second discount at ecl 8 with 10%?) b) sell+discount. if you sell a discounted item, do you still get the percentage depending on its original price? a) You only get the discount when you buy the item. How can you buy the same item twice? b) You get the percentage based on the DMG/PHB price.
whitebaron 11-24-07, 01:56 PM	a) You only get the discount when you buy the item. How can you buy the same item twice? well, you get the percentage at a later time according to coco rules, as you need to take a free action to do so. but maybe i'm just misunderstanding the coco rules - do you need to buy the item as part of your 3fc-action, or is it for "already bought" items?
Erithmu 11-24-07, 03:23 PM	You buy it as a free action ... I think what your missing whitebaron is that you can only purchase items at full price. so you can't get a discount on 'crafted items' so you would need to have your sell item and discount scores both up very high so that you could make a profit on it. so you buy at market-discount% and sell at market/2+sell item%
hogarth 11-24-07, 03:28 PM	well, you get the percentage at a later time according to coco rules, as you need to take a free action to do so. but maybe i'm just misunderstanding the coco rules - do you need to buy the item as part of your 3fc-action, or is it for "already bought" items? I think the intent is that, as a free activity, you can buy one (1) item and receive a discount on it. However, even though you're buying the item mid-cycle, you can't use it until your next cycle (similar to crafting scrolls or other items mid-cycle). I don't believe it's supposed to be for "already bought" items, even though the wording can be read that way: Discount Appraise Bluff Sense Motive . Task: You need at least 5 ranks in all three skills. . Effect: Gain a discount for one bought item in percent equal to the average of the three skills. It may not be raw materials or material components.
whitebaron 11-24-07, 04:17 PM	@both: the wording is quite ambiguous, as "bought item" could mean an already bought item as well one you are currently buying. therefore, if the discount would happen later, it could be possible - that's where my question came from. i don't try to set up a character that can make profit with buying&selling - it's just something where skill points could be put easy - will go to forgery instead then.
McJarvis 11-24-07, 11:49 PM	the word discount describes exactly what the package does. There's no reason you'd want to use it on something you own, since this would mean you'd be selling to item for less than 50% of it's market value. "Discount" means the selling value is reduced. When a vendor "discounts" their own(already owned) merchandise, they are losing money- not saving it. [they don't just magically get the cash for the amount of the discount- at least not in any country I know of]
whitebaron 11-25-07, 02:49 AM	@mcj: that's why i was always wondering about the wording of that skill package. to me, it says: you get a discount on an already bought item, which makes absolutely no sense. speaking of this brings me to another issue: why is there no discounting full action? getting stuff of the end of your 3fc might be nice - if you don't really need that item. but if it's needed for the build, you'll want to buy it upfront, even if it costs you much gold - better to win fights and spend more money on it, than to loose fights and end up with a slight discount...
Salrantol 11-25-07, 08:08 AM	@mcj: that's why i was always wondering about the wording of that skill package. to me, it says: you get a discount on an already bought item, which makes absolutely no sense.Note that it doesn't say "previously bought item," but it says "bought item," as opposed to "crafted item." It might be a bit more clear to add "as you buy it," but unless you're specifically looking for a loophole or exploit, I don't see any reason to interpret it the convoluted way you are interpreting it.
hogarth 11-25-07, 08:30 AM	speaking of this brings me to another issue: why is there no discounting full action? None of the money-earning skills (which is essentially what Discount is) can be used as a full activity.
whitebaron 11-25-07, 10:12 AM	@salrantol: well, bought = past tense. that's all there is (wasnt searching for a loophole, just wondering). a bought item is something you did already buy, previously. I wasn't (and probably will never be) thinking along the lines that a "bought" item is something you're about to buy. as a sold item will never be something you're about to sell - it's already gone if it's sold. @hogarth: well, the most obvious way to earn money is crafting. and it's allowed a full action, too. basically, crafting is 50% discount gotten from other skills and specialised on certain items. in the magic item case, it's 50% discount gotten from a feat. while it's easy to see why simply earning money is not acceptable for a full action, i cannot see any of the implications with discount. - after all, you'd be spending money, not earning. to create a loophole, you'd have to be allowed to sell items as well, and this would only work for crafting characters. btw: it's virtually impossible to make profit with discount and sell - you'd need more than 25 ranks in every of the skills involved... (Appraise,Bluff,Sense Motive,Gather Information) - either you'd be hitting ecl20 soon, or you invested like 40k items + 40°.
Salrantol 11-25-07, 02:52 PM	@salrantol: well, bought = past tense. that's all there is (wasnt searching for a loophole, just wondering). a bought item is something you did already buy, previously. I wasn't (and probably will never be) thinking along the lines that a "bought" item is something you're about to buy. as a sold item will never be something you're about to sell - it's already gone if it's sold."Bought" as a verb is past tense. "Bought" as a past participle modifying a noun in a passive voice (as it was used in this instance) is time-irrelevant, as it takes on the role of an adjective. A "bought item" is something that is bought, as opposed to a "stolen item," a "crafted item," a "borrowed item," and an "inherited item." A "buying item" becomes present participle, active voice, and the item would be doing the buying. "Buy item" is nonsense. There is no other word, without doing the same conjugation to a synonym such as "purchase" that would make the same distinction between the four types of "obtained items" mentioned above.
whitebaron 11-25-07, 03:34 PM	however: it's still ambigous, and changing one sentence in the rule to be a bit more descriptive is not really hurting, is it? as you said yourself it is "time-irrelevant" and therefore, you can interpret it the wrong way. unrelated question: do rings have any body-slot affinities? if so, where can i find them? if not, can i make a ring of <any skill> +5?
Hirumajoe 11-25-07, 10:41 PM	So I'm currently trying to figure out some extra flight for Valen before he gets access to Overland Flight at ECL 15. Mostly because the armor rules on humanoid form means winged formed metamorphosis + armor don't mix (which was my original plan at this stage). So I'm trying to figure out a custom item to for the boot slot. Effectively upgrading the boots of haste to boots of haste + fly. On the other hand, I don't think I need a full 3 uses a day for 5 minutes per use, and since I'm already going to be paying custom item costs anyways, I was wondering what might be a reasonable way to make it more interesting. What would people thoughts be on the following item: As a free action, the wearer can click her boot heels together, enabling her to act as though affected by both a haste spell and fly spell simultaneously for up to 10 rounds each day. The duration of the effect need not be consecutive rounds. Moderate transmutation; CL 10th; Craft Wondrous Item, haste, fly; Price 13,800 gp; Weight 1 lb. I'm not sure what the price in gold would be. Clearly, it'd be a 15 credit item, because of the custom way the fly spell is activate (rather than command word its free action). The fly effect though, is effectively only a level 1 effect, since its 1 minute duration. I think this means the total cost would be: 10 (CL) *3 (Spell level) *2,000 /5 (Haste) + 1.5 (No slot) *1 (CL)*3 (Spell Level) *2,000 /5 = 12,000 + 1,800 = 13,800 gp. However, that feels like a slightly odd way to do it, since CL 1 is below the minimum caster level for flight, but it seems then you should up the duration. At which case, would it be more correct to activate it for 1 round of haste and 5 rounds of flight? (So 50 rounds of flight, and every time you free activate it you get 1 round of haste and 5 rounds of flight. If you use it consecutively, you effectively lose out on 4 rounds of flight each time). In that case, I would expect a cost of 12,000 + 1,800*5 = 12,000 + 9,000 = 21,000 gp. Suggestions and/or thoughts? Thanks.
McJarvis 11-25-07, 11:49 PM	as you said yourself it is "time-irrelevant" and therefore, you can interpret it the wrong way. Only if you ignore the definition of discount ;)
Erithmu 11-25-07, 11:58 PM	@hirum: You could also see if you could get a variation on 'wild' armor property and get it to apply to polymorph. There might be some who have issue with it, but it is a scaling sort of thing at a +3 modifier. Other than that, I'm not sure if you want to be relying on 4 rounds of flight per fight to get done what you need to.
whitebaron 11-26-07, 03:47 AM	i'd go for the second version, as you cannot cast a spell below its initial casterlevel. - and: getting flight even for 10 rounds/day at 1800gp? seems pretty cheap... and: make haste and fly individually startable in #2 - should be possible, as you can take as many free actions as you want. click your heels and toes, then. ;) the cost of your second example is calculated strange (for me), though i come to the same endresult. 12000 (boots of haste) + 2000*3(sl)*5(cl)/5(uses)*1.5(second effect on same item) = 9000 unrelated magic item cost-questions: +1 luck bonus to skill +1 morale bonus to skill -> it's possible to do , see luckstone, prayer heroism. but what would be item prices? bonus[sup]2[sup]*x x= 125 (like different ac bonusses?) x= 150 (like don't know?) x= 200 (like different save bonusses?)
lonewolf 11-26-07, 05:57 AM	@boots of haste & flying: You are essentially getting a quickened fly here which is a lvl7 spell and even then the activation should take a swift action. So you would have 2000*7(sl)*13(cl)/5(uses)+ 12000(boots of Haste)*1.5(second effect on same item)=54400 The duration would be higher though.
whitebaron 11-26-07, 06:54 AM	@lonewolf: this is not how it is done in the srd. activation free == cost like continous, but charges/day. they don't mention it, but that's how it's roughly calculated.
Salrantol 11-26-07, 07:41 AM	unrelated magic item cost-questions: +1 luck bonus to skill +1 morale bonus to skill -> it's possible to do , see luckstone, prayer heroism. but what would be item prices? bonus[sup]2[sup]*x x= 125 (like different ac bonusses?) x= 150 (like don't know?) x= 200 (like different save bonusses?)Well, if you look at armor, you have: enhancement x=1000 armor x=1000 deflection x=2000 natural armor x=2000 other x=2500 If you look at saves, you have: resistance x=1000 other x=2000 If you look at skills, you have: competence x=100 other couldn't find any Best you could hope for then is x=200, and that looks most likely. x=250 would also be reasonable, but should probably be reserved for very outlandish bonuses to skills (resistance, armor, etc.).
whitebaron 11-26-07, 01:01 PM	well. what can boost your ac? shield bonus => not applicable armor bonus => ranks enhancement => competence dodge => not applicable dex => abilities x2: deflection => insight ? natural armor => morale ? x2.5: luck => luck others => others
Hirumajoe 11-26-07, 02:12 PM	@Erithmu: Couldn't you have suggested the alternate wild armor before I made it to twelve and picked up Expanded Knowledge: Expansion? :D That would have solved a number of problems, but I'm thinking the court battle to get it approved would not be pleasant. Plus, I don't think the Hide and Move Silently bonuses or the armor spikes on the armor stick around, just the AC bonus. (Although a spiked troll is an amusing thought...). As far as 4 rounds of flight a fight, I don't think I need much. I didn't really like the running around and sniping that I did in the Valen and Elrick fight recently. So in some ways, this forces me to engage quickly and decisively. I really don't want to be the guy flying up 200' for 50 rounds peppering arrows. If the opponent wants to engage in melee, then Valen is quite willing to dance. And if not, I just need to get close enough for a few rounds to negate the flight. Although now that I think about it, upgrading to CL 12 haste might nice, just to have an even 4 rounds per fight guaranteed (as opposed to 4, 4, and 2). @Lonewolf: Note that the boots of speed themselves use a free action to activate. And are only CL 10, not 13, which would be necessary for a quickened haste spell. I was using the same pricing format for the fly spell and linking the activations together. Perhaps the better method is to pay the minimum cost but still restrict it to the 10 (or 12 rounds at CL 12) per day. So 5*3*2000*1.5/5 = 9,000 gp combined with a CL 12 Boots of Speed (14,400) for a total of 23,400 gp and 15 credits but only lasts for 12 rounds of haste and fly per day. That feels better balanced to me. I'm hesitant to go for something that uses a free action for fly and then lasts for 100 rounds or more. Do people think a 23,400 gp boots with 12 rounds of haste and fly linked together, activated as a free action, would be reasonable?
lonewolf 11-26-07, 02:23 PM	@Hirumajoe: You cannot simply take an item that does one spell and substitute the spell for something different and use the same pricing. Otherwise you could burn down a candle of invocation for any other lvl9 spell. Activating a magical item as free action is very rare and very powerful. The pricing should reflect that. I´d say you can simply make "winged boots of speed" for 34000gp that combine both magical items but still require you to use a standard action to activate the flying part. If you want a version that lets you activate the fly spell as a swift action, the boots should be much more expensive than this, even if you restrict the flying duration.
whitebaron 11-26-07, 02:38 PM	two questions on upgrading magic items in coco: a) is it possible to upgrade a small bag of tricks, and pay only the difference in money? b) if you upgrade an item, can you use discount on the difference? (e.g. make masterwork sword => +1, pay 2000-x%)?
Hirumajoe 11-26-07, 03:38 PM	@Hirumajoe: You cannot simply take an item that does one spell and substitute the spell for something different and use the same pricing. Otherwise you could burn down a candle of invocation for any other lvl9 spell. Actually, the pricing given in the SRD for a single charge, use activated item is CL x Spell Level x 50 gp (assuming no expensive material components or XP cost). So an item which produced a 9th level effect is 17 x 9 x 50 = 7650 gp. This is less than the 8,400 gp cost of the candle. So I would see it as reasonable to switch the gate spell out for some other spell (that doesn't cost gp or xp to cast). Activating a magical item as free action is very rare and very powerful. The pricing should reflect that. I´d say you can simply make "winged boots of speed" for 34000gp that combine both magical items but still require you to use a standard action to activate the flying part. If you want a version that lets you activate the fly spell as a swift action, the boots should be much more expensive than this, even if you restrict the flying duration. Basically the boots of speed are underpriced? I suppose thats a reasonable argument. Although 34,000 gp might be too cheap to combine the Winged boots and the boots of speed. Since I'm making a custom item anyways, should I then be paying the balanced cost for the haste portion? Something like 13 x 7 x 2000 / 5 or the like for the haste, then the usual 18,000 gp for the flight 3/day half. So you'd be far more comfortable with a Caster level 13, Quickened Flight type magic item. Out of curiosity, would you feel reducing the duration below the full 130 rounds would warrent a reduction in cost, or should it always cost a full 13 x 7 x 1800 = 32,760 gp even if it lasts 1 or 10 rounds?
The Dread Dormammu 11-26-07, 09:00 PM	Where did the other guilds go?
Stormwind 11-27-07, 01:58 AM	Where did the other guilds go? The guilds have been somewhat inactive lately and the guild game itself is currently suspended/cancelled. However, I believe that any Guild RP may continue. The guild threads can be found here: CEF, EHTC, WAR, PSI, TAO, and TLT
Hirumajoe 11-27-07, 04:00 AM	Dumb question, but does Eversmoking bottle beat Daylight in regards to shadows. I.e., will there be shadows in an area which includes both a Daylight effect and an eversmoking bottle's smoke effect? Edit: Hmm... It may not matter since it provides concealment anyways. Given Valen has about 16,000 gp (assuming I lost this past week -which seems a good bet), he can go buy a necklace of adaption and an Eversmoking bottle... Edit 2: So I've gone and done it. Spent 14,400 gp on a Necklace and bottle. Hopefully it works as intended. Worst case its a DC 15 (+1 per previous save) fortitude save every round in melee to prevent my opponent from doing anything... Also, anyone know if smoke counts as a "powerful odor" in regards to causing problems for scent?
MindWandererB 11-27-07, 05:09 PM	All right: I think I've completed all the updates that needed to be done. I advise everyone to double-check and make sure their characters are at the right ECL, with the right number of wins and losses, and that if you've changed your pitlording status recently (i.e. within the last 3 weeks or so) that your entry is correct. @Telin: please update your pairings post to link to the fights. It's not urgent, but it needs to be done. Edit: Forgot to update credits and fights done. Done now. Doublechecking that is a good idea, too (if you know how many credits you had).
templer10 11-27-07, 05:13 PM	All right: I think I've completed all the updates that needed to be done. I advise everyone to double-check and make sure their characters are at the right ECL, with the right number of wins and losses, and that if you've changed your pitlording status recently (i.e. within the last 3 weeks or so) that your entry is correct. @Telin: please update your pairings post to link to the fights. It's not urgent, but it needs to be done. my pitlording can go back to my normal routine 3 +1 (ecl 3 prefered).
whitebaron 11-27-07, 05:22 PM	Edit: Forgot to update credits and fights done. Done now. Doublechecking that is a good idea, too (if you know how many credits you had). question about the fights written with the pitlords: are the fights a) including miniquests b) including the fights of this week already? it states 25 fights for me, but i held 29 + 1 miniquest. cf. my list
lonewolf 11-27-07, 05:23 PM	I noticed that waywreths Inzin Dar`ath should be ECL7.
MindWandererB 11-27-07, 05:35 PM	question about the fights written with the pitlords: are the fights a) including miniquests b) including the fights of this week already? it states 25 fights for me, but i held 29 + 1 miniquest. cf. my list They don't count miniquests, and I usually update the list when I do pairings for the following week (otherwise, I can't track late/missing fights accurately). So you'll get your remaining 4 tomorrow. I noticed that waywreths Inzin Dar`ath should be ECL7.Bah. I even updated his PR to reflect the level change, then didn't actually move him.
TelinArtho 11-27-07, 05:55 PM	MWB - make sure I am not on the active pitlords list. I was hoping to have enough time - but while things are getting better - they still aren't quite there yet. I'll update the pairings post as soon as I can though.
Callix 11-28-07, 02:40 AM	I noticed one thing on the roster: Ralein is a 5th level Soulknife, and so earns a Special Power tag. Not that he's likely to use it with his Charisma score, but it's there. I'd just like my first reputation tag to be something other than "Failure", which is where Rennae is headed at the moment.
Stormwind 11-28-07, 03:47 AM	I noticed one thing on the roster: Ralein is a 5th level Soulknife, and so earns a Special Power tag. Not that he's likely to use it with his Charisma score, but it's there. I'd just like my first reputation tag to be something other than "Failure", which is where Rennae is headed at the moment. Don't be discouraged, soulknives might be a difficult class to play in the CoCo, but it is quite possible to avoid the Failure tag. One of my previous characters was Cyra Val who was a pure soulknife up until I retired her at ECL10. I believe that she has been the longest played and most successful soulknife in the CoCo. She was a member of PSI and is still a major NPC in the guild. Feel free to take a look for ideas, or even send me a PM if you would like to discuss soulknife strategy/strengths/weaknessess. Cyra Val (Stormwind) [Power: 8102 (717); 8 won, 16 lost] [Q:2] [Special Power]
whitebaron 11-28-07, 03:57 AM	well rennae is his psion(shaper) - astral constructs are just not that useable i think... his soulknife is pretty even 5:6 - i'd say this is good for that class.
MindWandererB 11-28-07, 04:06 AM	Don't be discouraged, soulknives might be a difficult class to play in the CoCo, but it is quite possible to avoid the Failure tag. One of my previous characters was Cyra Val who was a pure soulknife up until I retired her at ECL10. I believe that she has been the longest played and most successful soulknife in the CoCo. She was a member of PSI and is still a major NPC in the guild. Feel free to take a look for ideas, or even send me a PM if you would like to discuss soulknife strategy/strengths/weaknessess. Cyra Val (Stormwind) [Power: 8102 (717); 8 won, 16 lost] [Q:2] [Special Power] Although... note that Cyra is even now one loss away from a Failure tag....
Stormwind 11-28-07, 06:03 AM	Although... note that Cyra is even now one loss away from a Failure tag.... Ahh ... but that's the all important point, one loss or one hundred losses - she's managed to avoid the Failure tag, even if only by a hair :D
Stormwind 11-28-07, 06:11 AM	well rennae is his psion(shaper) - astral constructs are just not that useable i think... his soulknife is pretty even 5:6 - i'd say this is good for that class. Yep, a 45% win ration is quite respectable for a soulknife. Up until ECL9, Cyra had a 47% win ratio (8 wins from 17 fights), but then with more of her opponents using toughsight, she simply had no good counter for it. It is one of those 'You lose' abilities if your opponent has it and you are a sniper.
whitebaron 11-28-07, 06:21 AM	hehe, yes, that's all that counts. Verren's pretty much the same - although i expected him to be a failure soon, he picked up some lucky wins. ;) with his powers increasing, his stats maybe will get better - we'll see, i just liked the concept, and had to blast my TT party with a full grown variant of it. Lelenia is about to enter the fray. she'll have to do some prep work before actually fighting, and i need to finalize equipment. basically, i think that she's up to no good until she meets leadership and maybe a PRC - but we'll see, the luck was always on her Tabletop side. ;)
Callix 11-28-07, 06:38 AM	Yep, a 45% win ration is quite respectable for a soulknife. Up until ECL9, Cyra had a 47% win ratio (8 wins from 17 fights), but then with more of her opponents using toughsight, she simply had no good counter for it. It is one of those 'You lose' abilities if your opponent has it and you are a sniper. Part of the reason I've kept Ralein's options open. At high ECLs, he'll have quite a good Will save, and can just melee with the mind blade. Psychic Strike damage is pretty good at most levels, and Bastard Sword damage is always nice, with the option of finessed short sword forms or throwing vs high ACs. He's also got a solid AC, pretty well split between touch and flat-footed. It's just against incorporeal undead that he's screwed, with no PS dice and an extra 50% miss chance. Anyway, it was Rennae I was concerned about re failure; she went OK through ECL 3, but her luck's got worse; In three fights, she has used a total of 3 pp. She got a 4-way FFA, then she ran into Darian Thorne, the new unstoppable kid, then copped Tzimosica's Blindness in her next fight, which pretty much neutralised her. Next level, though... Touchsight :).
Stormwind 11-28-07, 06:43 AM	Hmmm, a question for all those undead experts and rules lawyers out there: When an undead creature gains a class level, is their Hit die for that level a d12 (as per undead) or is it determined by their class? The reason I ask is because I have just levelled Varjo (determining HD according to class) when I noticed what seems to me to be an inconsistency in RAW. In the racial/template descriptions for various undead (Ghost (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monstersG.html#ghost), Skeleton (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monstersS.html#skeleton), Vampire (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monstersTtoZ.html#vampire), Zombie (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monstersTtoZ.html#zombie), etc), it mentions that the HD from all (kept) class levels, past and future become d12's. However this is not specifically mentioned for every undead (Ghoul/Ghast (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monstersG.html#ghoul), Shadow (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monstersS.html#shadow), etc) or even under the undead type (as far as I can tell). My understanding of this feature is that it is intended to compensate undead characters for the loss of a constitution modifier to their hitpoints. Obviously, this creates a inconsistency with Ghoul or Shadow PC's in comparison with Ghost or Vampire PC's. Comments? Discussion?
lonewolf 11-28-07, 07:01 AM	While you are right that it is not spelled out, I believe that the reason for this is that originally these undead werent supposed to take class levels at all. We allow it, so they should get the d12 for hp IMHO.
Stormwind 11-28-07, 07:16 AM	Part of the reason I've kept Ralein's options open. At high ECLs, he'll have quite a good Will save, and can just melee with the mind blade. Psychic Strike damage is pretty good at most levels, and Bastard Sword damage is always nice, with the option of finessed short sword forms or throwing vs high ACs. He's also got a solid AC, pretty well split between touch and flat-footed. It's just against incorporeal undead that he's screwed, with no PS dice and an extra 50% miss chance. Incorporeal undead PC's are difficult to fight against, although they do have their weaknesses too. Low hit points for example. Thus if you actually get through their incorporeal miss chance and hit them, then they can't actually take that much damage (wands of magic missile are a bane to incorporeal undead for this reason alone). On the other hand, one of their strengths is that they can do ability damage which effectively replaces their opponents high hit points with a much lower ability score. So basically you need to be able to do enough damage to their hit points before they do enough ability damage to you. Anyway, it was Rennae I was concerned about re failure; she went OK through ECL 3, but her luck's got worse; In three fights, she has used a total of 3 pp. She got a 4-way FFA, then she ran into Darian Thorne, the new unstoppable kid, then copped Tzimosica's Blindness in her next fight, which pretty much neutralised her. Next level, though... Touchsight :). Rennae looks like a fairly solid build. I might suggest that she could take more advantage of her skills (like hide for ego whip sniping). For example consider an elixir of hiding and chameleon tattoo which combined with her hide skill would give her a +27 to hide. Adding in distance penalties might even allow her to 'snipe' with ego whip. And that's just one approach. The dorje of vigor thing might be another approach. Basically you only need something to give you just a little more survivability so that you can decimate your opponent first ;) Touchsight makes a huge difference against snipers, and the occasional other spell or effect (like blindness), however it has a much lesser effect against other archtypical characters. That said, it really is a worthwhile power.
Stormwind 11-28-07, 07:20 AM	While you are right that it is not spelled out, I believe that the reason for this is that originally these undead werent supposed to take class levels at all. We allow it, so they should get the d12 for hp IMHO. I agree. However I would like to hear some more discussion/opinions/comments before I consider posting this in the courtroom.
TelinArtho 11-28-07, 10:19 AM	Hmmm, a question for all those undead experts and rules lawyers out there: The reason I ask is because I have just levelled Varjo (determining HD according to class) when I noticed what seems to me to be an inconsistency in RAW. In the racial/template descriptions for various undead (Ghost (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monstersG.html#ghost), Skeleton (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monstersS.html#skeleton), Vampire (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monstersTtoZ.html#vampire), Zombie (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monstersTtoZ.html#zombie), etc), it mentions that the HD from all (kept) class levels, past and future become d12's. However this is not specifically mentioned for every undead (Ghoul/Ghast (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monstersG.html#ghoul), Shadow (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monstersS.html#shadow), etc) or even under the undead type (as far as I can tell). My understanding of this feature is that it is intended to compensate undead characters for the loss of a constitution modifier to their hitpoints. Obviously, this creates a inconsistency with Ghoul or Shadow PC's in comparison with Ghost or Vampire PC's. Comments? Discussion? When I did my ghoul fighter - I only gave him the d10 hp of the fighter. The templates that you mention above are what makes the difference to me - those templated creatures gain d12 hp all of the time; the other undead get the lesser hp of their individual classes. I could be wrong - though I wonder if this is specifically addressed in LM (where we got the LAs for the other undead in the first place).
Macbrea 11-28-07, 10:33 AM	All undead prestige classes in Libris Mortis specificly grant those undead d12s for hps. I searched the section before there to see if there was any mention of it. There wasn't any rules related to their hps. Very early in the book they mention that the d12 is tempting for undead until you realize that a fighter with con 12 is exactly the same amount of hps. And a rogue with con of 16 is also the same. The d12 was there to offset the lack of con bonus. Making a ghoul fighter makes a sub-optimal ghoul for hps. Best I can tell.
Stormwind 11-28-07, 10:35 AM	When I did my ghoul fighter - I only gave him the d10 hp of the fighter. The templates that you mention above are what makes the difference to me - those templated creatures gain d12 hp all of the time; the other undead get the lesser hp of their individual classes. I could be wrong - though I wonder if this is specifically addressed in LM (where we got the LAs for the other undead in the first place). Does anyone here have a copy of Libris Mortis? If so could they check whether this might be addressed in LM or not? (Unfortunately I don't have a copy of the book myself) Edit: Just noticed Macbrea's response. So then there's nothing specific mentioned in LM about this?
Erithmu 11-28-07, 11:39 AM	The two examples I found were towards what Telin did. The first is the Mummy Lord Cleric X in the DMG (not in SRD). The second was the Mummy Swarm Shifter Druid 13 in Libris Mortis. Both of these used the HD of the class and not the d12. I would lean toward using the class HD not the d12 that is normally associated with undead. I haven't looked much past those two, and Libris Mortis did not specifically explain how to manage things like class levels. But since the non-templated undead function like LA/Undead HD(d12)/Class HD(d?) ... I would suspect that this would be the case. (And If so I think I have to throw Jonathan into Prison) This would probably be my vote if put to a vote in the courtroom, I would need some pretty significant proof to go the other way.
TelinArtho 11-28-07, 11:53 AM	I'm not sure about this one. The contingent summoning is based off of Contingency - so technically this is a question about contingency. Kraegin advanced last fight to ECL11. He has a CL11, but gets a +1 CL for evil spells - for a total of 12. Contingency (and by extension, Contingent Summoning) states that the maximum spell level is 1/3rd of the caster's caster level. So, can Kraegin prepare a contingent SMIV as long as he chooses an evil creature (as if he would choose anything but an evil creature...)? I believe he should be able to - but would rather make sure I have it right before I make an assumption... the whole question here is whether it's your caster level for contingency, or your caster level for SMV. i'd rules as a dm, that it has to be the CL used for contingency, as you cannot cast it at CL12. I only got one response on the matter before I went AWOL... any other opinions on this? I am certainly of the opinion that Kraegin should be considered CL12 for Evil spells, but I am certainly biased...
lonewolf 11-28-07, 11:56 AM	I only got one response on the matter before I went AWOL... any other opinions on this? I am certainly of the opinion that Kraegin should be considered CL12 for Evil spells, but I am certainly biased... I have to agree with WB on this one. The CL of the contingency is what should count and that is only 11.
hogarth 11-28-07, 12:12 PM	I have to agree with WB on this one. The CL of the contingency is what should count and that is only 11. Ditto.
TelinArtho 11-28-07, 12:24 PM	Ok - good enough then. SMIII it is. Now, I have never really worked with contingency before, so I need some clarification on triggers (the examples of the past CoCo are "lacking" in my opinion...): 1. Triggers on being attacked? (by spell, weapon, power, anything?) 2. Triggers on sight of an opponent? 3. Triggers on hearing an opponent? 4. Triggers on perceiving an opponent (by any available means - even the tremorsense/blindsense of an ally)? Are any of those invalid? Most of the examples of former thaumaturgists are like this: "Whenever I squeeze my left nut" "Whenever I utter some specific word as a free action" or something similar... which, in my opinion is just a no-no...
SoulLord 11-28-07, 12:48 PM	take into account that contingency only affects you The spell to be brought into effect by the contingency must be one that affects your person and be of a spell level no higher than one-third your caster level (rounded down, maximum 6th level). compare it to using a quickened spell and you have very similar results. so sure you could use a contingency to cast a false-life provided you are high enough level to trigger whenever you say something. but then again why would you when that condition is the same as casting a quickened false life. contingency + false life= 8 spell levels used quickened false life= 6 spell levels used. I really don't see any further nerfing of contingency as needed.
Erithmu 11-28-07, 12:52 PM	Ok - good enough then. SMIII it is. Now, I have never really worked with contingency before, so I need some clarification on triggers (the examples of the past CoCo are "lacking" in my opinion...): 1. Triggers on being attacked? (by spell, weapon, power, anything?) 2. Triggers on sight of an opponent? 3. Triggers on hearing an opponent? 4. Triggers on perceiving an opponent (by any available means - even the tremorsense/blindsense of an ally)? 1: Attacked could be portrayed as vague. you might say something like ... 'Take hp damage from an outside source' 2: Your an evil cleric w/ RP on taking over the world ... everyone is an opponent to you ;) 3: See #2 4: See above ... you might add within the context of an arena fight. You could also do something like when you 'specifically order Torrent to attack (although that could be bad if Torrent gets taken out, although you can still issue the order w/out Torrent there) One of my favorites would be to link the contingency to whatever your first offensive spell will be. ie 'when I begin casting SM_' This allows you to place an instant blocker while you finish your summoning spell. @Soullord: this is the Contingent Summoning class feature of the Thurm. It breaks a few rules of standare contingency rulings
TelinArtho 11-28-07, 12:59 PM	1: Attacked could be portrayed as vague. you might say something like ... 'Take hp damage from an outside source' 2: Your an evil cleric w/ RP on taking over the world ... everyone is an opponent to you ;) 3: See #2 4: See above ... you might add within the context of an arena fight. You could also do something like when you 'specifically order Torrent to attack (although that could be bad if Torrent gets taken out, although you can still issue the order w/out Torrent there) One of my favorites would be to link the contingency to whatever your first offensive spell will be. ie 'when I begin casting SM_' This allows you to place an instant blocker while you finish your summoning spell. @Soullord: this is the Contingent Summoning class feature of the Thurm. It breaks a few rules of standare contingency rulings Let's not put the ethos of Denth on Kraegin here. Kraegin has no desire to take over the world. So what if he does desire Denth to do so (and only so much as to destroy the world and leave nothing behind...). Okay - so how about these: 1. Triggers on being the target of a spell or power. 2. Triggers on being affected by a spell or power. Opponent is in the eyes of the beholder here - but is a common usage for readies (I ready to attack once I see an opponent - for instance). I don't see why I can't use a trigger for a contingency in the same manner.
Erithmu 11-28-07, 01:22 PM	My issue is that we define our battles in terms of the arena. Yet we want to have a living world based in the city of Gladius. (Getting into the Living World idea here) So if you are just wandering around town, you could easily have to distinguish between who is an opponent and who is not in a split second. Magic may not have such a ... process of determination ... If you wanted to you could add the addendum of an opponent within the context of a 'Gladiator Fight.' Now that has a little meta-gaming w/ it, but CoCo uses quite a bit of meta gaming in general. The thing w/ Contingency is that you want to be very specific about what you want to do. I also prefer to have something that I/My PC has more control over. For your two new ones you might specify source ... 'I cast Shield of Faith' *Pop* Also if the spell is a save or die, and ... you die ... it would still kick in.
TelinArtho 11-28-07, 02:29 PM	I was thinking of it as a thing to almost prevent a specific course of action. Since I can't really hide the trigger of the contingency, I figured having it be used to block a certain type of attack/spell or power would be very useful. Its kind of like the Ring of Counterspells (Dispel Magic) - having one is very effective at keeping you from being targetted by dispel magic. Likewise, I'm hoping I can use the Contingent summons to stop one or more methods of attack - but I can certainly understand the want to have it as more controllable. However, since it will always be a "weak" summons - I'm not sure that being able to control when it is summoned is all that necessary. On another note, I'm looking over my options for the planar cohort at Thaumaturgist 5 (next level). This will enable me to get a leadership-like ally for a set cost (1000gp per HD) - but the question is what to get? Raskos's Yaurl is an obvious source of inspiration. I would be able to start with a large sized Yeth Hound or Shadow Mastiff. Both of these would be useful allies - the former having supernatural, wing-less flight, the latter having the ability to conceal in shadows. They both would have the downside of being large creatures (which is sometimes a hindrance), but would be oppressive melee combatants. The yeth hound does have DR10/silver - which is not to be underestimated. A Nightmare would likewise be a nice option and adds flight and etherealness to the mix to help deal with the incorporeal opponents I might be fighting. The nightmare is not nearly the offensive force of the former two - but the etherealness is not something to discount. All of the above are solid options in my opinion. Other solid options I'm looking at: Xill - I would be able to add a class level to a standard Xill. With planeshifting - it helps with the incorporeal foes and can be a solid ranged and melee force. The improved grab/paralysis is not too useful (only activates against small or smaller opponents), but is nice to have. The SR of 21 is of course the best I can get to start with. No DR though. The xill would require a modicum of money invested just in variety of weapons - but that's not necessarily a reason to discount it entirely. A tiefling with plenty of class levels (9 to be exact) is obviously a solid choice if I wanted a more "traditional" cohort. Likewise, a half-fiend something with 6HD would be an option to work with. Mephits are not out of the question - but I'm not sure that they would be the best option. Azers, Dretches, Hell Hounds, Flamebrother Salamanders and Howlers have all already been removed from my short list as options because they would not be as good as some of the others. Some quick breakdowns on the options I'm looking at: Nightmare, Large Outsider (Evil Extraplanar) - Neutral Evil HD 6d8+30; hp 57; init +4; speed 40ft, Fly 90ft (good); AC 26 (-1 sz, +4 dex, +13 nat), Touch 13, Flat-footed 22; 2 Hooves +10 melee (1d8+5dmg +1d4 fire) and Bite +5 melee (1d8+2); Saves +10/+9/+6 S 20 D 18 C 20 I 15 W 12 Ch 12 Skills: +9 skill points, Concentration +12, Diplomacy +3, Intimidate +10, Knowledge (the planes) +10, Listen +12, Move Silently +11, Search +10, Sense Motive +10, Spot +12, Survival +10 (+12 on other planes and following tracks) Feats: 3 feats Specials: Natural weapons are treated as evil for purposes of DR; Flaming Hooves, Smoke (15ft cone, Fort DC18 or take -2 on all attack and damage rolls until 1d6 minutes after leaving cone's area, Cone lasts 1 round and the nightmare can use it as a free action each round. Constitution-based DC; Also, because of the smoke - nightmares have concealment against creatures 5ft away and total concealment from creatures more than 5ft away. The nightmare is not affected by smoke nor is its sight restricted because of it.); Darkvision 60ft; Astral Projection and Etherealness (CL20) Equipment that would be wanted: Chain Shirt, str booster Shadow Mastiff, Large Outsider (Extraplanar) - Neutral Evil HD 7d8+49; hp 80.5; init +1; speed 50ft; AC 15 (-1 sz, +1 dex, +5 nat), Touch 10, Flat-footed 15; Bite +15 melee (1d8+13); Saves: Fort +12, Ref +6, Will +5 S 29 D 13 C 24 I 4 W 10 Ch 14 Skills: +15 skill points, Hide +8, Listen +8, Move Silently +8, Spot +8, Survival +8* Feats: 3 feats Specials: Bay (300ft spread; Will DC 13+Cha or panick for 2d4 rounds; Trip (on successful bite), Darkvision 60ft, Shadow Blend, Scent Equipment that would be wanted: Chain shirt, more AC boosting, some flight possibility Yeth Hound, Large Outsider (Evil Extraplanar) - Neutral Evil HD 7d8+42; hp 73.5; init +2; speed 40ft, fly 60ft (good); AC 21 (-1 sz, +2 dex, +10 nat), Touch 11, Flat-footed 21; Bite +16 melee (2d6+15); Saves: Fort +11, Ref +7, Will +8 S 30 D 14 C 22 I 6 W 17 Ch 8 Skills: +24 skill points, Listen +11, Spot +11, Search +7, Survival +11 (+13 following tracks)* Feats: 3 feats Specials: Bay (300ft spread; Will DC 13+Cha or panick for 2d4 rounds; Trip (on successful bite), Darkvision 60ft, DR10/Silver, Flight, Scent Equipment that would be wanted: Chain Shirt, Speed booster (Boots of Speed probably) Xill Barbarian 1, Medium Outsider (Evil Extraplanar) - Neutral Evil HD 5d8+1d12+18; hp 47; init +5; speed 50ft; AC 22 (+5 dex, +7 nat), Touch 15, Flat-footed 17; 4 Claws +10 melee (1d4+4) or combination of weapons; Saves: Fort +7, Ref +9, Will +5 S 18 D 21 C 17 I 14 W 12 Ch 8 Skills: Balance +13, Climb +10, Diplomacy +2, Escape Artist +11, Intimidate +8, Listen +9, Move Silently +11, Sense Motive +8, Spot +9, Tumble +11, Use Rope +3 (+5 with bindings) Feats: MultiattackB, Multiweapon Fighting, Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm Specials: Implant, Improved Grab, Paralysis (Fort DC12+Con or paralysis for 1d4 hours), Darkvision 60ft, Planewalk, SR21 Barbarian: Fast Movement, Rage (1/day, +4 Str/Con, -2 AC, +2 Will for 8 rounds) Equipment that would be wanted: Chain Shirt, Str boost, 2 Comp Longbows (+4 str), Flight option After looking at them all - I'm torn between the versatility of a humanoid-like Xill and the sheer defensive power of the nightmare. With a fast fly speed, total concealment at a distance, a high AC besides - it can be a formidable opponent on its own. The shadow mastiff and yeth hound are pretty much the same with just one ability switched - and although they are massive melee threats, they don't have much to offer beyond their current abilities. The Xill and Nightmare will both have reasonable advancement over time to expand their abilities.
MindWandererB 11-28-07, 04:27 PM	The description of contingent conjuration is a bit vague, so I would lean toward the guidelines of other triggered spells. In other words, there should be no judgment or interpretation (no "opponent"). Similarly, being targeted by a spell or effect would have to have a visual or auditory component (I think we can assume that the Contingency has the Spellcraft skill of the caster). I personally have no problem with using a free action to trigger it.
Hirumajoe 11-28-07, 06:32 PM	Can someone describe to me how Telekinetic Manuever works? You can affect a foe by concentrating your mind upon its current status and the status you desire, once per round. You can perform a bull rush, a disarm, a grapple (including a pin), or a trip. Resolve these attempts as normal, except that they don’t provoke attacks of opportunity, you use your manifester level in place of your base attack bonus (for disarm and grapple attempts), you use your Intelligence modifier in place of your Strength modifier or Dexterity modifier, and a failed attempt doesn’t allow a reactive attempt by the target (such as normally allowed on disarm or trip attempts). No save is allowed against these attempts, but power resistance applies normally. 1) Does your (the manifester's) size modifier apply? 2) Is the initial attack roll necessary? Given that it seems to suggest you don't need a BAB for the trip attack, for example, it seems the touch attack portion might be skipped. 3) How does the grapple option work? I guess you make an opposed roll to start the grapple, and then once successful the opponent is considered to be being grappled even though there's no one there?
hogarth 11-28-07, 07:00 PM	Can someone describe to me how Telekinetic Manuever works? 1) Does your (the manifester's) size modifier apply? A strict reading would suggest so, but Istima the goblin has used it in past fights without any penalty for his Small size. 2) Is the initial attack roll necessary? Given that it seems to suggest you don't need a BAB for the trip attack, for example, it seems the touch attack portion might be skipped. Again, its not totally clear but that's how SauroGrenom ran it in the PSI campaign (touch attack needed). 3) How does the grapple option work? I guess you make an opposed roll to start the grapple, and then once successful the opponent is considered to be being grappled even though there's no one there? The opponent will be grappled until he breaks free or the power ends or the manifester chooses a different maneuver (like disarm, bull rush, etc.).
mucki 11-29-07, 06:21 AM	A link i just got sent, about D&D monsters: http://www.headinjurytheater.com/article73.htm PS: sorry if posting random fun links is frowned upon, but since it is D&D and we are discussing monsters anyway, i though i'd give it a shot :)
templer10 11-29-07, 06:31 AM	I have a Slightly theoretical question - In intellect devourer can use it's victims bodies as it's own (more or less) for up to 7 days - so can an intellect devourer if it were played as a gladiator (ecl 12 so it is mostly theoretical) can have as "allies" Bodies for it to use?
templer10 11-29-07, 06:33 AM	A link i just got sent, about D&D monsters: http://www.headinjurytheater.com/article73.htm PS: sorry if posting random fun links is frowned upon, but since it is D&D and we are discussing monsters anyway, i though i'd give it a shot :) I actually picked up that original monster manuel (with the illustrations) a couple of years back at a second hand store - the guy didnt know what he had...
whitebaron 11-29-07, 08:20 AM	I have a Slightly theoretical question - In intellect devourer can use it's victims bodies as it's own (more or less) for up to 7 days - so can an intellect devourer if it were played as a gladiator (ecl 12 so it is mostly theoretical) can have as "allies" Bodies for it to use? well, he can only have only one body, and he has to occupy it. as bodies have no equipment-price and are not listed in the srd, i'd rather say no, but i might be prejudiced. :)
templer10 11-29-07, 08:36 AM	well, he can only have only one body, and he has to occupy it. as bodies have no equipment-price and are not listed in the srd, i'd rather say no, but i might be prejudiced. :) I wasnt thinking for that particuler fight - but it gave me a nasty idia For the future.
McJarvis 11-29-07, 08:45 AM	A link i just got sent, about D&D monsters: http://www.headinjurytheater.com/article73.htm PS: sorry if posting random fun links is frowned upon, but since it is D&D and we are discussing monsters anyway, i though i'd give it a shot :) I gotta admit- I don't see where he's coming from with some of that stuff. I've always thought the owlbear, seacat, and seatiger are incredibly cool :) I guess with the rest of the stuff he has a point. Except that he seems to think D&D is suppose to be a GM vs Players game....
McJarvis 11-29-07, 10:09 AM	What divination spells does Nondetection work against? Obviously not truestrike[which isn't "like" any of the spells mentioned] - but see invis? True Seeing?
Macbrea 11-29-07, 10:15 AM	I generally don't read articles written by someone who starts with a claim I don't play this but.... Generally speaking critzising someone elses hobby without first trying it is like saying, "I am sure Thai food is bad, I once looked at a menu."
whitebaron 11-29-07, 10:19 AM	more like saying "i once ate something". ;) about the divination: it hides from both. but not from touchsight..... :doh:
McJarvis 11-29-07, 10:37 AM	more like saying "i once ate something". ;) about the divination: it hides from both. but not from touchsight..... :doh: Can I get an elder's answer on this? Other sources I have checked seem conflicted. [though this is the answer I've always used in home games]
hogarth 11-29-07, 10:41 AM	What divination spells does Nondetection work against? Obviously not truestrike[which isn't "like" any of the spells mentioned] - but see invis? True Seeing? Check the FAQ; it says Non-detection doesn't work vs. See Invisibility, IIRC.
McJarvis 11-29-07, 10:48 AM	Check the FAQ; it says Non-detection doesn't work vs. See Invisibility, IIRC. All that's in the FAQ is whether nondetection can protect magical traps.
McJarvis 11-29-07, 11:29 AM	Speaking of magical traps- I'm not sure if I'm doing this right. Electrified Chains On first appearance, this trap appears to be chains attatched to a wall near a doorway- perhaps ones that held a guard dog at one point in time. They have gone unused for many years now, though, and show signs of rust. Upon entering the area the chains are in, electricity flies through them and they fly into the air as if with a mind of their own. If touched, they exude a blast of electricity. CR 2 trap Search/Disable DC 20 [+0 gp/CR] Shocking Grasp: +10 touch attack [+13 vs metal armor] [+2 CR], 0 gp if cast by trap maker] Proximity set [+1,000 gp] Auto reset[+500 gp x 5(CL) x 1(SL)= 2,500gp] CR break down: +CR 1 for being magical trap +CR 1 for casting a SL 1 spell edit- CoCo use- this trap can be used started at ECL6. [ECL6-4CAP= CR2] edit2- where I think I might have messed up is the mechanics. Like it's a spell -trap -> but do I need to include the CR mods for touch attacks & average damage as well? It seems like trap CR will go up pretty quickly if that's the case. [in the case of magical damaging traps, that is]
TelinArtho 11-29-07, 11:44 AM	Note that the average damage of a CL5 Shocking grasp is 17.5. Table: CR Modifiers for Magic Traps Feature CR Modifier Highest-level spell + Spell level OR +1 per 7 points of average damage per round* *See the note following Table: CR Modifiers for Mechanical Traps. So this would be a +3 modifier to the CR, not +1 for SL1.
McJarvis 11-29-07, 11:51 AM	Note that the average damage of a CL5 Shocking grasp is 17.5. So this would be a +3 modifier to the CR, not +1 for SL1. So the or indicates you have to use the higher of the two? I think that's the portion I was missing. [couldn't tell if it was the higher or lower] Though I can't seem to decipher their acid arrow trap either. Acid Arrow Trap: CR 3; magic device; proximity trigger (alarm); automatic reset; Atk +2 ranged touch; spell effect (acid arrow, 3rd-level wizard, 2d4 acid/round for 2 rounds); Search DC 27; Disable Device DC 27. Cost: 3,000 gp, 240 XP +1 +2 [spell level] [s]+1 [high search] +1 [high disable] Search/Disables come from formula of DC25+SL=27 +1 [touch] -1 [low attack bonus] = CR5 3 , not CR3. ?? We're all good! edit- I guess I just don't understand what circumstances make the mods from the mechanical list apply to the magical list. double edit- oh! I see where the search/disable is from now. Magic traps specifically use the formula of DC25+SL. So that makes my earlier trap... Search/Disable DC 26 [+0CR] SL 1/ 5d6 damage [+3 CR] Touch attack [+1 CR] +10 attack [+0 CR] Magical trap [+1 CR] =CR 5? And a magic missile trap of the same type would be... CL 10 Search/Disable DC 26 SL 1/ 5d4 [+3 CR] Auto-hit [+0? Cr] Magical Trap [+1 CR] =4 CR? That's weird that magic missile has fewer mods than shocking grasp....
Hirumajoe 11-29-07, 01:32 PM	Question in regards to winged boots. Do they: 1) Cast fly, and thus the effects of a targeted dispel (or suppression effect) on the wearer is sufficient to remove it. 2) The effect isn't cast, but the boots themselves provide the flight for the duration. Thus a dispel would have to be targeted directly on the boots to cause them to not function for 1d4 rounds to actually eliminate the flight. My reading of them suggests the second, but I'm not positive. And if the second is correct, anyone have any clue how many hit points (and the hardness) boots have?
McJarvis 11-29-07, 02:02 PM	This trap was approved: "Static pressure plate" CR 4, Search DC 20, Disable DC 20, 8d6 electricity (Reflex DC 22 negates). Location trigger, manual reset; Cost: 1600 gp. Does anyone know what CR calculation was used for it? I can only assume it is a magical/spell trap, based on the fact that it does electric damage and has a save. By... A successful Search check (DC 25 + spell level) made by a rogue (and only a rogue) detects a magic trap before it goes off. Other characters have no chance to find a magic trap with a Search check. ...this rule we can determine the Disable/Search DC should have been 25 at least. The lowest electricity spell that can hit without an attack roll is 3(lightning bolt), so the Disable/Search DC should be 28 at least. Shouldn't it?
hogarth 11-29-07, 02:20 PM	Question in regards to winged boots. Do they: 1) Cast fly, and thus the effects of a targeted dispel (or suppression effect) on the wearer is sufficient to remove it. 2) The effect isn't cast, but the boots themselves provide the flight for the duration. Thus a dispel would have to be targeted directly on the boots to cause them to not function for 1d4 rounds to actually eliminate the flight. My reading of them suggests the second, but I'm not positive. And if the second is correct, anyone have any clue how many hit points (and the hardness) boots have? MWB thought it was #1 when I suggested sundering Arden's winged boots in the Strongjaw/Picsou vs. Arden fight. I thought it was #2.
Macbrea 11-29-07, 02:35 PM	Boots are considered a part of armor. Are the legal for sundering? EDIT: They also provide an armor bonus against caltrops of +2. Which seems to indicate they are armor.
TelinArtho 11-29-07, 02:35 PM	This trap was approved: "Static pressure plate" CR 4, Search DC 20, Disable DC 20, 8d6 electricity (Reflex DC 22 negates). Location trigger, manual reset; Cost: 1600 gp. Does anyone know what CR calculation was used for it? I can only assume it is a magical/spell trap, based on the fact that it does electric damage and has a save. By... ...this rule we can determine the Disable/Search DC should have been 25 at least. The lowest electricity spell that can hit without an attack roll is 3(lightning bolt), so the Disable/Search DC should be 28 at least. Shouldn't it? Well - no spell was listed with it - so there's nothing really to indicate that it is a magical trap (though coming up with a non-magical way to deal electric damage is questionable). As a mechanical trap: +4 CR (Damage 8d6 = 28 avg /7 = 4) But - I agree that it probably shouldn't have been approved as such... I would certainly support an up-front approval process on traps, but I don't know that they are used enough for the movement to pass...
McJarvis 11-29-07, 02:50 PM	Well - no spell was listed with it - so there's nothing really to indicate that it is a magical trap (though coming up with a non-magical way to deal electric damage is questionable). As a mechanical trap: +4 CR (Damage 8d6 = 28 avg /7 = 4) But - I agree that it probably shouldn't have been approved as such... I would certainly support an up-front approval process on traps, but I don't know that they are used enough for the movement to pass... Other than the brown mold trap I don't see any mechanical traps that deal elemental damage. I think a good rule of thumb is that if it isn't physical damage or poison- it probably needs to be a magical trap. Otherwise the physical traps(bludgeoning/slashing/piercing) have no place- since elemental damage is almost always more powerful in CoCo. [those search/disable DC's on the magic traps are stinkin huge- and the magical traps at least require a bit more to create] edit - Also note that the save DC's on physical traps are pretty high- magical traps can't get that high very easily at low levels. [a 3rd level spell, for instance, only gives us a DC 15 [1.5*3+10] I was wrong on this one. The rules for DC's on spell traps are more complex... So how do you figure it out? MAGIC TRAPS Many spells can be used to create dangerous traps. Unless the spell or item description states otherwise, assume the following to be true. A successful Search check (DC 25 + spell level) made by a rogue (and only a rogue) detects a magic trap before it goes off. Other characters have no chance to find a magic trap with a Search check. Magic traps permit a saving throw in order to avoid the effect (DC 10 + spell level x 1.5). Magic traps may be disarmed by a rogue (and only a rogue) with a successful Disable Device check (DC 25 + spell level). This seems to be talking about spells that function as traps. Spell Traps: Spell traps produce the spell’s effect. Like all spells, a spell trap that allows a saving throw has a save DC of 10 + spell level + caster’s relevant ability modifier. This sounds like "traps that are really spells"- but isn't that what they were just talking about? Magic Device Traps: These traps produce the effects of any spells included in their construction, as described in the appropriate entries. If the spell in a magic device trap allows a saving throw, its save DC is 10 + spell level x 1.5. Some spells make attack rolls instead. Now I'm just all kinds of confused :(
Hirumajoe 11-29-07, 02:58 PM	Boots are considered a part of armor. Are the legal for sundering? EDIT: They also provide an armor bonus against caltrops of +2. Which seems to indicate they are armor. Hmm... Good point. Although, can you swing a weapon of suppression at armor, even if you can't sunder it? However, the other question, whether the boots cast it, or only a targeted dispel for 1d4 round works, is still a valid question. Previously, I've seen pitlords dispel it when Valen hits the opponent with a suppression greatsword, but I'd like to make sure thats the right way. From my point of view, command word type items seem to cast the effect (i.e. 1st option), while continuous use items would be the 2nd option. The only difference here is the fluff description indicates that might not be the case.
Macbrea 11-29-07, 03:42 PM	You should be able to dispel the winged boots. As they: "On command, the boots sprout wings at the heel and let the wearer fly, without having to maintain concentration, as if affected by a fly spell." As a result they grant the ability to fly like a fly spell. But don't actually cast a fly spell on the wearer. You shouldn't be able to actually sunder the boots because they are part of armor. But touching them with the Suppression weapon should be possible.
McJarvis 11-29-07, 03:50 PM	Sorry about the frequent posts questioning traps. heh. About this trap: Fusillade of Darts: CR 1; mechanical; location trigger; manual reset; Atk +10 ranged (1d4+1, dart); multiple targets (fires 1d4 darts at each target in two adjacent 5-ft. squares); Search DC 14; Disable Device DC 20. Market Price: 500 gp. Would that fire the darts at my opponent & all of his allies, or just him?
Stormwind 11-29-07, 03:59 PM	Sorry about the frequent posts questioning traps. heh. About this trap: Would that fire the darts at my opponent & all of his allies, or just him? I would guess that if you succeed in search and disarm checks then you and your allies pass without triggering the trap. If you fail the checks, then I would expect it to affect you and your allies.
MindWandererB 11-29-07, 04:02 PM	A link i just got sent, about D&D monsters: http://www.headinjurytheater.com/article73.htm PS: sorry if posting random fun links is frowned upon, but since it is D&D and we are discussing monsters anyway, i though i'd give it a shot :)What, no Nilbog? For shame. That's probably my favorite.Would that fire the darts at my opponent & all of his allies, or just him?I'd say that it wouldn't hit his allies unless his setup involved them standing in adjacent squares... which would be pretty dumb. (Unless he forgot to place them at all, in which case pitlords usually start them adjacent.) Re: Noko's Static Pressure Plate: Cat approved that one. Cat also thought that giant vats of acid and lava on the rooftops of buildings in the city was normal. Re: winged boots: I recant my earlier position. Rereading it, the boots definitely fly themselves, rather than making the wearer fly. I do think they can be sundered; boots aren't armor (only armor is armor), and there are rules for sundering worn objects.
McJarvis 11-29-07, 04:05 PM	I'd say that it wouldn't hit his allies unless his setup involved them standing in adjacent squares... which would be pretty dumb. (Unless he forgot to place them at all, in which case pitlords usually start them adjacent.) Traps are resolved before tactics are sent- so that solution is impossible :( We do have rules for multiple targets on custom traps, though[in the traps section of our rules]... Re: Noko's Static Pressure Plate: Cat approved that one. Cat also thought that giant vats of acid and lava on the rooftops of buildings in the city was normal. Heh. That crazy kid. What ever happened to him? Oh, right. <_< >_> edit- Still waiting on an answer to what spell-save DC trap-spells use. In addition- what would be the effect of having a stinking cloud trap in the arena? would the cloud start off centered on his square, with him stuck in it if he failed his save? [or even a web spell, lets say]
Hirumajoe 11-29-07, 05:07 PM	Seems fairly straight forward. If the trap is created by a wizard walking up to a book and casting a memorized explosive runes spell, then its just a normal spell and uses the normal spell saves (10 + spell level + caster mod). If its a trap that been magically created outside of normal spell casting, then it gets the minimum spell save mod possible, namely 10 + spell level x 1.5. (I.e. a 4th level spell requires a 14 casting stat and thus gets the +2 mod... I.e. 10 + 4 x 1.5 = 16.) Thus, for the traps that you are considering here, its going to be the second option only. @Flying boots: So we seem to all agree on option 2 (i.e. the boots provide the flight, they don't "cast" it.). However, now I've got a GM saying they can be sundered while one elder things they are armor and shouldn't be sunderable. Anyone else want to weigh in?
Macbrea 11-29-07, 06:01 PM	My arguement that boots are part of armor and should be counted as armor is based off are pieces of armor breakable vs armor themselves? Boots being the odd exception in that they provide +2 armor bonus vs caltrops. Which makes it by definition armor.
Hirumajoe 11-29-07, 06:14 PM	My arguement that boots are part of armor and should be counted as armor is based off are pieces of armor breakable vs armor themselves? Boots being the odd exception in that they provide +2 armor bonus vs caltrops. Which makes it by definition armor. Well, I think I've heard people discuss sundering gauntlets and spiked gauntlets, or armor spikes. Which while technically are pieces of armor, while at the same time being weapons. I think (please chime up if you disagree or if I'm mis-remembering) the decisions back then was that these individual armor components are in fact sunderable. As far as the SRD caltrops section: For this attack, the creature’s shield, armor, and deflection bonuses do not count. If the creature is wearing shoes or other footwear, it gets a +2 armor bonus to AC. If boots count as armor, then they don't provide the armor bonus, since it would contradict the previous line. And there's precedence for an item which isn't armor to provide an armor bonus - namely Bracers of Armor (and perhaps Robes of the Archmagi). Or I suppose you could read the previous line as "For this attack the creature's shield bonuses, armor bonuses, and deflection bonuses do not count." But then the second line makes no sense. (They could have simply provided an unnamed bonus rather than confusing the issue). Its a rather poorly worded section.
lonewolf 11-29-07, 06:54 PM	@boots of flying: I am with MWB on this one. Only armor is armor. Bracers of armor also arent armor even though they provide an armor bonus to AC.
Vathelokai 11-29-07, 11:01 PM	A link i just got sent, about D&D monsters: http://www.headinjurytheater.com/article73.htm :heehee :rofl: :heehee What a trip down memory lane... I almost died laughing. PS: sorry if posting random fun links is frowned upon, but since it is D&D and we are discussing monsters anyway, i though i'd give it a shot :)Keep them comming!
whitebaron 11-30-07, 02:45 PM	the interleague fight will kill me this week, i'm sure about that. so, lets get this started, since i have a lot of questions ready for that fight: set1: if shadows do a dive attack, can they deal double damage? for a shadow, is it possible to only partially emerge, thus negate the own miss-chance, but stay in cover? how is meta-gaming handled in coco for teams/cohorts/allies? if someone does something you don't see, are you allowed to do your action corresponding to his or do you need to perceive his action? srd clearly states claws or talons. as shadows don't have either, i'd say - no. as you cannot be between two squares in a combat situation, i'd say it's either take the cover and the miss-chance, or none of both. i would some of these things allow at tt-games, some not. this is really hard.
Macbrea 11-30-07, 03:49 PM	my answers.. 1) Yes, it can make a dive attack but it cannot do double damage as it lacks talon, claw or weapon. [note: we have declared a weapon useable in a dive but have also ruled a touch attack isn't a weapon] 2) Technically, by the way the rules are written it is only allowed to be in one square at a time. In a RL game it could be rules that the surface of the stone may be used like the surface of water and therefore provide improved cover. But since, it's not water you must be in the square or out of the square. 3) During play if you have a readied action waiting on something to happen and a team mate doesn't appear to do the action then the readied action isn't activated.
TelinArtho 11-30-07, 04:57 PM	1. Yes - they have a fly speed and there's no condition from being incorporeal that states they cannot charge or dive. Therefore, a shadow can still charge or dive. Note that in order to charge/dive you need to be able to see your target. As to the matter of dealing double damage - the answer is no unless it is a claw or talon (or weapon dealing slashing/piercing damage). 2. This is tough to really picture, but yes. A shadow can use the floor as cover/improved cover/total cover as necessary but would suffer accordingly (cannot attack the opponent if in total cover for instance). 3. I am assuming this is within the team. ie: Character A casts invisibility. Character B readies to cast Bless when Character A drinks a potion. Character A then drinks a potion. Unless Character A is able to communicate that the condition has passed, the ready cannot trigger.
MindWandererB 12-01-07, 12:38 AM	1) Clear consensus there. 2) CoCo precedent is that it cannot be done, because you can't be halfway between squares/cubes. I'm not sure whether I agree with that, but that's been the ruling in the past. Changing it would require quite a bit of discussion. 3) Obviously if one character is looking for a "trigger" to do something, they need to be aware of it somehow. If it's a metagaming thing, it's just going to be a judgment call; something like "if they start casting a spell with a casting time of more than 1 action, put up Protection from Evil" is okay, because a character is presumed to know things like casting times and whatnot, but "disarm them of any gum arabic they pull out of their spell component pouch" wouldn't be, since that would require Spellcraft-based knowledge.
Vathelokai 12-01-07, 07:25 AM	@Everyone: I'll be around a bit less than usual this week. A grandfather died. It wasn't a surprise, but it's still sad.
Turanson 12-01-07, 07:36 AM	Vathelokai: please accept my condolences
hogarth 12-01-07, 08:41 AM	2) CoCo precedent is that it cannot be done, because you can't be halfway between squares/cubes. I'm not sure whether I agree with that, but that's been the ruling in the past. Changing it would require quite a bit of discussion. Actually, just about every fight I've seen with a ghost (or other incorporeal character) has involved them having cover from being half in the ground so there's significant precedent the other way as well! I believe it mentions this possibility in the Rules of the Game article on incorporealness/etherealness.
whitebaron 12-01-07, 09:00 AM	Actually, just about every fight I've seen with a ghost (or other incorporeal character) has involved them having cover from being half in the ground so there's significant precedent the other way as well! I believe it mentions this possibility in the Rules of the Game article on incorporealness/etherealness. no, the rules of the games don't cover this. they restate what's in the srd. i already checked - they nowhere mention that you could be between two squares. the halfway in the floor thingy samuel and some other incorporeal creatures seem to have done in coco is not possible according to core rules. you're either in the floor or you're not. using flyby attack, it's easy to avoid further attacks other than readied actions. but you cannot attack without miss-chance and have cover towards your opponent. what i could live with: both have cover. btw: i don't like "precedence" for rules. either its core rule, house rule, or pitlord decision. this seems to be #1.
hogarth 12-01-07, 09:25 AM	no, the rules of the games don't cover this. they restate what's in the srd. i already checked - they nowhere mention that you could be between two squares. I thought this passage covered it: Using Objects as Cover: An incorporeal creature's ability to pass through (or at least enter) corporeal objects or creatures can prove most exasperating to corporeal foes. In general, an incorporeal creature can claim cover whenever it enters an object that's the same size category that it is or one size category larger. If the incorporeal creature enters an object at least two size categories larger than itself, it has total cover. If, however, the incorporeal creature makes a melee attack outside the larger object's space, it only has cover unless it can retreat back into the object after the attack. For example, if an incorporeal creatures makes a melee attack, then uses a 5-foot step to enter an object at least two sizes bigger than it is, the incorporeal creature has total cover. If the incorporeal creature instead leaves or reaches out of the same object and then attacks, it cannot take a 5-foot step and gains only cover from the object. In either case, the incorporeal creature only has cover while it makes the melee attack. Maybe I'm misinterpreting it. Also, this passage: "After that, the incorporeal creature will have to emerge at least partly from the object where it is hiding to make an attack." ...suggests that you can emerge partly from an object.
Vathelokai 12-01-07, 09:55 AM	I believe that the meaning of the passage is that a creature is inside of an object and attacking something outside of the object using the natural 5 ft reach; not partially emerging. I think both would have complete cover. I've done it both ways in the past.
whitebaron 12-01-07, 11:34 AM	you have to reach out of the object, thus you partially emerge. -your hands, bite, claws, whatever - are outside of the object, and therefor, you can be hit. that's why you only get cover and not total cover from this action. it's still enough to negate AoOs, though. the only way to be always partially within an object would be to become large. about partially emerging: well, tell me how to do this in dnd-core-rules. you have squares (or cubes in 3d), and every medium sized creature can only occupy a single square. each square is containing something - air, stone, creature. whats in that square determines your AoOs, cover etc. note that your quote from the rotg are directly in line with the srd, which states enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal creature that is inside an object. sure, you still have cover. but you also have the miss-chance.
Erithmu 12-01-07, 07:45 PM	Question: ... If you Psychic Crush a troll and the troll fails it save ... what happens on the trolls turn? a) Begins regenerating b) Stays at -1 hp and begins to bleed out Please note that I'm leaning towards 'b' on the following basis: Psy Crush sets the target's hp at -1 ... it doesn't 'deal damage' Note this is assuming a failed save, If the troll makes its save I would think that the 2ndary damage of Psy Crush would begin to regenerate.
lonewolf 12-01-07, 08:18 PM	Question: ... If you Psychic Crush a troll and the troll fails it save ... what happens on the trolls turn? a) Begins regenerating b) Stays at -1 hp and begins to bleed out Please note that I'm leaning towards 'b' on the following basis: Psy Crush sets the target's hp at -1 ... it doesn't 'deal damage' Note this is assuming a failed save, If the troll makes its save I would think that the 2ndary damage of Psy Crush would begin to regenerate. definately B Regenerate only heals nonleathal damage but it converts most damage the troll gets into nonleathal damage. Psychic Crush sets the hp at -1, so there is no damage dealt and thus no nonleathal damage that can be healed.
MindWandererB 12-02-07, 12:32 AM	I agree. Psychic crush specifically inflicts the "unconscious" and "dying" conditions, and regeneration doesn't do a thing about those. You'd need Fast Healing to help here.
whitebaron 12-02-07, 11:23 AM	just one backup question on my rules-understanding. char S casts a touch attack spell. he wants to hold the charge, and attack with his natural attacks in between. to my understanding, he would not get any bonuses of the spell unless he would try to hit with the spell. (so: no+3 for shocking grasp against metal armor for any other natural attacks, etc.)
hogarth 12-02-07, 11:40 AM	just one backup question on my rules-understanding. char S casts a touch attack spell. he wants to hold the charge, and attack with his natural attacks in between. I don't believe you can hold a touch spell and attack with natural weapons without discharging the spell; it states that the spell discharges whenever you touch anything (and natural weapons generally involve touching something). I know we've discussed this in the past with regards to Rubicanti, but I don't know what the consensus was.
templer10 12-02-07, 11:53 AM	I don't believe you can hold a touch spell and attack with natural weapons without discharging the spell; it states that the spell discharges whenever you touch anything (and natural weapons generally involve touching something). I know we've discussed this in the past with regards to Rubicanti, but I don't know what the consensus was. if you hold the charge you can attack with a natural weapon Needing to hit Normal AC (not touch AC), if you hit it will do both the natural weapon's damage and the spell dmg - that is coverd in the same place that gives the option to hold the charge in the SRD - About if you get or not you get the +3 to hit, debatable - i would say yes since the bonus doesnt come from the natural weapon but from the taregt so it doesnt matter HOW you attack said target, Note that bonus would obviosly only apply towards the natural weapon that is actaully holding the charge in case there is more then one natural weapon and it will go away after that first attack hits (and discharge the spell).
whitebaron 12-02-07, 12:07 PM	ok, just re-read the holding the charge rules. you get the bonus damage, yes. but i don't think you'd get any other bonus for that, since you're attacking with your normal attacks, not the spell - and you're not making touch attacks - you attack normally. - or can you make the touch attack of shocking grasp as part of your full attack? - more clarifications on that one needed for me...
templer10 12-02-07, 12:48 PM	ok, just re-read the holding the charge rules. you get the bonus damage, yes. but i don't think you'd get any other bonus for that, since you're attacking with your normal attacks, not the spell - and you're not making touch attacks - you attack normally. - or can you make the touch attack of shocking grasp as part of your full attack? - more clarifications on that one needed for me... yes you can do it as part of a full attack since you can do it as part of a normal single attack and there is no further limitation on using a touch spell as part of an attack exept the fact you need to hit normal AC.
lonewolf 12-03-07, 09:43 AM	just to make sure: A dispel magic can only be used to counterspell if the other caster is within range of the dispel, right? also: can you counterspell call lightning(casting time 1 round) without readying to counterspell, => the other one starts casting and its your turn.
Erithmu 12-03-07, 09:58 AM	just to make sure: A dispel magic can only be used to counterspell if the other caster is within range of the dispel, right? also: can you counterspell call lightning(casting time 1 round) without readying to counterspell, => the other one starts casting and its your turn. Yea you need to be in range to counterspell (even with a dispel) Yes you can interrupt 1 round spell casting with a dispel, Force a Conc check, or creating a situation where the spell can no longer be cast. (Ex: Silence vs Verbal spell)
templer10 12-03-07, 09:58 AM	just to make sure: A dispel magic can only be used to counterspell if the other caster is within range of the dispel, right? also: can you counterspell call lightning(casting time 1 round) without readying to counterspell, => the other one starts casting and its your turn. yes a dispell can be used to coutner spell only if it's whitin range - the spell still goes off - just in a diffrent way. no - you can't counterspell a 1 round action spell without reading to counterspell - see the counterspell description: "To use a counterspell, you must select an opponent as the target of the counterspell. You do this by choosing the ready action" It spesificly say you need to use the ready action to start the counterspell - think of it as catching the guy casting just before he is actually starting to cast the spell. EDIT - Rith - wihile you can certenly intterup a spell with damage or the spell not having a viable target ETC - the counterspell description spesificly mention ready action so are you sure on what you are saying?
whitebaron 12-03-07, 12:41 PM	question concerning the cover of the canopy in the forest map: if an incorporeal being enters the canopy, can it hide without hips? If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide.
MindWandererB 12-03-07, 12:48 PM	question concerning the cover of the canopy in the forest map: if an incorporeal being enters the canopy, can it hide without hips? Nope--it provides cover and concealment, but not total either, which is what you'd need to break LOS and thus hide w/o HiPS.
hogarth 12-03-07, 01:35 PM	For the outmaneuver skill package, you can start X feet outside your starting box. Is that counted as the crow flies or by foot (for a gladiator without flight)? Can I start X feet straight up in the air if I wanted to (map permitting)? :) EDIT: Supplemental question: An aquatic elf has a swim speed of 40. Does she get a +4 bonus to Jump checks for the purposes of the Outmaneuver package?
templer10 12-03-07, 01:54 PM	Question - the Lanterns in the City- How do they interact with the darkness spell? i.e. - does darkness overrides them?
whitebaron 12-03-07, 02:22 PM	@outmaneuver: 1) you take normal movement-rules. 2) don't know, but would suppose so, but you can not normally start higher. the outmaneuver doesn't specifically say which direction, so it is indirectly allowed. 3) no, as it is not his normal movement speed (walk) in the arena. would be debatable in the forest, though. @lanterns: i supposed them to be light-equivalent lightsources, so any darkness spell should override them.
Macbrea 12-03-07, 02:32 PM	The lanterns in the city are not considered magical light spells. They are considered oil lanterns as per the rules. This means a darkness spell overrides them. Normal lights (torches, candles, lanterns, and so forth) are incapable of brightening the area, as are light spells of lower level. Higher level light spells are not affected by darkness
templer10 12-03-07, 02:41 PM	another question's - 1)if you shoot an Xbow while at a roof of a building - do you need a balance check. 2)and when you reload an Xbow - do you need a blanace check? p.s. macbrea/MWB - darkness is a TOUCH range spell - so no sending darkness globes and assuming you hit with a snipe or 2 Ill have you abandon that tacic in a hurry Blurga got an almost full CLW wand so no point, iam just debating what Whould i do next - have Gak attempt to climb the roof or just do an archery Duel - iam leaing towards an archery duel - he has true strikes and a cohort to heal him compared to going up the roof where he got no backup and good chance to fall. p.s - i hate incomplete tactics.
Macbrea 12-03-07, 02:48 PM	I would assume you would keep shooting as a sniping. It is my tactics. I don't really care if I burn off his entire clw wand. Look at it this way.. The entire clips of bolts is 22gp. The entire CLW is 750gp. It's a fair trade.
templer10 12-03-07, 02:53 PM	I would assume you would keep shooting as a sniping. It is my tactics. I don't really care if I burn off his entire clw wand. Look at it this way.. The entire clips of bolts is 22gp. The entire CLW is 750gp. It's a fair trade. you want this fight delayed ANOTHER week? not to mention eventually he will spot you then you cant rehide since at the building top there arent that many places to hide.
Macbrea 12-03-07, 02:55 PM	If you are unable to finish the fight then delay it. It isn't that hard of a fight. It's a shot and two listen checks. Per round. You can start rolling them as a single set of rolls and posting per round until the character finds Yorick. His shots are at MS 15 - 20 + 1d20. He minus the distance to the target. This should be fairly quick before it becomes an archery duel. Basically, what your asking is I am bored with this fight can I just declare Macbrea's character the looser. No... I don't particularly want you to declare my character the loser.
Macbrea 12-03-07, 03:01 PM	Not to mention the globe of darkness even at touch range was there to actually give him a hint were I was in the area.
templer10 12-03-07, 03:07 PM	If you are unable to finish the fight then delay it. It isn't that hard of a fight. It's a shot and two listen checks. Per round. You can start rolling them as a single set of rolls and posting per round until the character finds Yorick. His shots are at MS 15 - 20 + 1d20. He minus the distance to the target. This should be fairly quick before it becomes an archery duel. Basically, what your asking is I am bored with this fight can I just declare Macbrea's character the looser. No... I don't particularly want you to declare my character the loser. I dont particulery appriciate the tone m8 - and that wasn't what i was asking. Another general question - it's not exacly covered in the rules and iam not that great in 3d math - in http://www.hwx.it/coco/coco.php;v=1;map=city;a=Name,S,14,38,Yor ick;b=Name,M,22,36,Gak;d=Name,M,22,35,bl urga this position is it possible for yorick to shoot at gak? he's small needing to shoot at something very much below him and close to the buildings wall/hedge? if so - will it be possible when he's prone? i think yes to the first question no to the second question - so he will need to either rapid shoot while standing or attempt to getto the roof's edge - both rather rotten options (since balance check is dangarous at that situation) - i might just roll for it if it becomes needed.
templer10 12-03-07, 03:08 PM	Not to mention the globe of darkness even at touch range was there to actually give him a hint were I was in the area. you spesificly didnt want darkness on yorick unless it came down to melee and since it's not actually possible to do darkness at range i didnt do darkness - i will if it comes down to melee per tactics.
hogarth 12-03-07, 03:10 PM	@outmaneuver: 1) you take normal movement-rules. 2) don't know, but would suppose so, but you can not normally start higher. the outmaneuver doesn't specifically say which direction, so it is indirectly allowed. 3) no, as it is not his normal movement speed (walk) in the arena. would be debatable in the forest, though. Note: Remember -- common sense doesn't necessarily apply for purposes of the Outmaneuver package; otherwise how would a high Swim check help you get closer to your opponent in the Temple? Maybe they flood it and then drain all of the water out just before the battle begins...
Macbrea 12-03-07, 03:12 PM	Assuming he moved to the peak of the roof. He would be able to see. But from that spot he could never really make a shot. We didn't define the rooftops well enough to make them make sense. I assumed the line down the center of the roof was the peak of the roof and they were angled. The goal was to get to a spot and shoot. That forced them to shoot at me while prone and technically balancing by the rules of the roof. This changed my ac to +4 prone vs ranged shot - 5 loss of dex for balancing. It generally was an offset. As it's a repeating crossbow. I don't have to reload but once every 5 rounds. Or 2.5 if rapid shooting. And there is no reason I need to stand up to rapid shoot or reload. Your correct in the fact that if he moves to the base of the building I am forced to crawl to the edge to actually shoot at him. But those are the tactics as written.
Macbrea 12-03-07, 03:16 PM	The goal of using the building to force him to either sit at a distance and shoot at me or come up and melee me without his dex is to gain advantage of my low damage vs his inability to balance. And to take out his ally. I am not making up stupid tactics just to watch you pull your hair out.
templer10 12-03-07, 03:17 PM	And just when i was thinking this is going to take a while - Gak rolls a natural 1 on a Poison fort save.... I assume GAk being uncouncios for a couple of hours counts as defeated?
Macbrea 12-03-07, 03:19 PM	Technically.. we never decided upon that. I am forced by the current rules to either wait for MWB to declare a surrender or take shots at him til he dies. And technically, if it's the first roll of poison, he can wake up I think by making his save on round 10 though, I am not sure on that one. Once you fail the save, you take the effects of the poison and have to wait for the secondary effects to go off.
Macbrea 12-03-07, 03:28 PM	I am pretty sure that if you fail the save you don't get to wake up later if you make the second one. I would just post the fight upto that point and ask MWB if he wants to surrender. Otherwise, given his tactics I am going to basiccally, sit on top of the roof and fire an arrow each round until he dies. It uses my resources up for future fights.
templer10 12-03-07, 03:30 PM	I am pretty sure that if you fail the save you don't get to wake up later if you make the second one. I would just post the fight upto that point and ask MWB if he wants to surrender. Otherwise, given his tactics I am going to basiccally, sit on top of the roof and fire an arrow each round until he dies. It uses my resources up for future fights. true and it will finish up his wand of CLW - so iam fairly certein he will surrender but ill post and see.
McJarvis 12-03-07, 03:40 PM	I am pretty sure that if you fail the save you don't get to wake up later if you make the second one. I would just post the fight upto that point and ask MWB if he wants to surrender. Otherwise, given his tactics I am going to basiccally, sit on top of the roof and fire an arrow each round until he dies. It uses my resources up for future fights. This is drow poison, right? Since it doesn't specify a time period it is either perminant unconciousness or unconcious until the next save. The first save only says unconcious: the second one is the one that specifies hours. At home games I've always ruled the first one to only last 'til the second save, by RAW.
Iced 12-03-07, 03:49 PM	Hey guys, I've come back for a bit and found Solan (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=7782920#post7782920) in jail. Anyone know what violations he's accumulated? Thanks, -Iced
Macbrea 12-03-07, 03:52 PM	Ah, found the rules on it. They are of course under drow. An opponent hit by a drow’s poisoned weapon must succeed on a DC 13 Fortitude save or fall unconscious. After 1 minute, the subject must succeed on another DC 13 Fortitude save or remain unconscious for 2d4 hours So.. yeah.. you always get 1 save to stay unconscious for 10 rounds and another to keep from being asleep for 2d4 hours. Oddly, I think you actually get a third save vs it if you make the first save, fail the second save.... then have to make another one 10 rounds later to see if you stay asleep for that time.
TelinArtho 12-03-07, 05:26 PM	Hey guys, I've come back for a bit and found Solan (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=7782920#post7782920) in jail. Anyone know what violations he's accumulated? Thanks, -Iced These are the two that I found that weren't marked as closed: [Post 989] Author : Zevox Date : 03-11-07 11:08 PM Thread Title : Violation: Solan the Righteous (Iced), ECL 9 Solan's ride skill is too low. He should have a +2 synergy bonus from having more than 5 ranks in Handle Animal. Also, while not a violation, his sblocks cannot be opened with Firefox. [Post 1162] Author : Abyssal Stalker Date : 04-08-07 03:28 AM Thread Title : Violation: Solan the Righteous (Iced) Solan's mount Agminus doesn't qualify for Improved Grapple, since he doesn't have Improved Unarmed Strike.
Macbrea 12-04-07, 08:52 AM	Have a rules question someone might know. If your ability damaged. Does the rules for minimum hps per level count? A person dropped from 10 to 4 con. 1) [(6)(3.5 x 3)- 12 con= 4; 4 HD] or 2) [(6) - 3 + ((3.5) - 3 (Min 1)) x 3 = 6; 4HD]
mucki 12-04-07, 09:07 AM	I don't know what the rules say, but from a matter of what makes sense I would say that nr. 2 looks right. With option 1 you could end up with a negative max HP number (only actually if you do roll a one for HP each level i think, but nonetheless it would be possible and I doubt the rules are intended like that). EDIT: I looked it up in the SRD. it says: Constitution (Con) Constitution represents your character’s health and stamina. A Constitution bonus increases a character’s hit points, so the ability is important for all classes. You apply your character’s Constitution modifier to: * Each roll of a Hit Die (though a penalty can never drop a result below 1—that is, a character always gains at least 1 hit point each time he or she advances in level). * Fortitude saving throws, for resisting poison and similar threats. * Concentration checks. Concentration is a skill, important to spellcasters, that has Constitution as its key ability. If a character’s Constitution score changes enough to alter his or her Constitution modifier, the character’s hit points also increase or decrease accordingly. I would interpret the word "accordingly" in that case as to be "according to the rules given above". Especially since they already stress that a CON penalty cannot reduce the HP per level below 1.
McJarvis 12-04-07, 10:32 AM	Practically speaking, we don't record die-rolls at table top games- so tracking which rolls are minimized to 1's would be too laborous at games. I'd say just make a min total hp = to hd.
templer10 12-04-07, 01:11 PM	nm
hogarth 12-04-07, 02:07 PM	Familiars get to use their Dex bonus instead of their Str bonus on melee attacks with natural weapons. Does that apply to touch spells, too?
CrazyArtificer 12-04-07, 02:14 PM	I guess so.. a melee touch attack is still delivered with a natural weapon, so I see no reason to forbid it.
TelinArtho 12-04-07, 02:17 PM	Familiars get to use their Dex bonus instead of their Str bonus on melee attacks with natural weapons. Does that apply to touch spells, too? Most familiars have Weapon Finesse - so the answer is yes. If they do not have Weapon Finesse - they don't get to though.
Macbrea 12-04-07, 02:43 PM	Note that the rule in sources like complete arcane give rulings such as the following quoted from Complete arcane. Which seems to indicate that weapon like spells are weapons and spells which require touch attacks are considered finessable. Weapon Finesse: You can treat touch spells as light weapons and use your Dexterty modifier (instead of your Strength modifier) on your touch attack rolls with such spells.
hogarth 12-04-07, 02:53 PM	Note that the rule in sources like complete arcane give rulings such as the following quoted from Complete arcane. Which seems to indicate that weapon like spells are weapons and spells which require touch attacks are considered finessable. Weapon Finesse: You can treat touch spells as light weapons and use your Dexterty modifier (instead of your Strength modifier) on your touch attack rolls with such spells. I'm not talking about the feat Weapon Finesse, though -- I'm referring to the pseudo-Weapon Finesse ability that familiars have. It sounds like toads and bats are out of luck when it comes to touch spells.
TelinArtho 12-04-07, 03:02 PM	Well the results are in - I finished 2nd in the Master DM Competition #38. First place was a mere 1/3rd of a point away...
Erithmu 12-04-07, 04:23 PM	Well the results are in - I finished 2nd in the Master DM Competition #38. First place was a mere 1/3rd of a point away... I've been watching that. Kinda getting me excited to try out the next one ... I'll have free time too with Christmas Break.
Hirumajoe 12-04-07, 06:38 PM	@Telin: Congrats on the contest. I must admit I usually don't think of small houses as good adventuring locations... :) @All: So I've been looking at the Blackmarket rules again. (Yes, I know this can't lead anywhere good. But in my defense, I've never actually bought a custom magic item - I just contemplate them alot. :) ). So I've been wondering about the CoCo intelligent item rules. 1) Can you upgrade a current item or does it have to be a completely new and unique item? 2) Can you use saved wealth to "afford" the item, or does its value have to come squarely from 3 quest wins or campaign victories? 3) If you want to upgrade the item later (say a weapon from +1 to +2 or the like), would you need to pay credits? Go on another quest? Or you simply can't upgrade it? 4) If its the base item is weapon or armor, do you define the usual stats for it (I.e. +3 enhancement, flaming) or are all properties determined by the questlord/GM? 5) Should I drop this line of thought before causing further complications for the Elders? :) What I had been considering doing is saving up Valen's gold from ECL 12, go on a quest at ECL 13, and assuming Valen lives through it, grabbing a decent intelligent item/upgrade for about 70,000 gp like an intelligent armor or weapon. (I'm not thinking ahead to Mage's disjuntion, no not at all...) Thanks ahead of time... Edit: Out of curiosity, have there been intelligent items in the CoCo previously?
MindWandererB 12-04-07, 07:01 PM	Only Cat has gotten an intelligent item in the past, which is why we haven't looked too closely at those rules. If you're seriously considering this, it's probably time for a thorough review of them.
Hirumajoe 12-04-07, 08:20 PM	Only Cat has gotten an intelligent item in the past, which is why we haven't looked too closely at those rules. If you're seriously considering this, it's probably time for a thorough review of them. Depending on the answers to the above questions, yes, I would invest in an intelligent item. I also wouldn't be surprised that if allowed, we'd see a few more in fairly short order. There are a ton of benefits that come along with having a construct for a weapon or armor. Beginning with the item acting on your initiative and capable of activating its powers. And continuing on to blindsense built in with some models. In the ECL 17 and up bracket, they're also immune to Mage's Disjunction, being constructs and all. That construct status might also make them immune to sunder and targeted dispels, although I'm not certain on that. The lesser and greater powers are also missing the 1.5 times multiplier for combined abilities in a single item. The fact is the ECL 12, 13 and 14 brackets are starting to have enough wealth to actually consider some of these options. So it probably should be looked at sooner or later. I'd also be fine with the intelligent item clause being removed and simply saying no intelligent items. (Saves time on ironing out the rules and I bet most of the elders would go along with it. Also given the opinions on custom items that were recently expressed, I'd be doubtful there would be a public outcry).
MindWandererB 12-04-07, 09:15 PM	I hate the ambiguous state of intelligent weapons of being like constructs. The rules just can't make up their minds on that point. It would be my biggest problem with them, I think. Otherwise, I don't see why we don't just let people buy the things and be done with it.
McJarvis 12-04-07, 09:21 PM	I hate the ambiguous state of intelligent weapons of being like constructs. The rules just can't make up their minds on that point. It would be my biggest problem with them, I think. Otherwise, I don't see why we don't just let people buy the things and be done with it. I think there is a RotG article or FAQ statement somewhere that specifically says intelligent items are treated like items for the purposes of spells/effects. I specifically remember thinking about them as a workaround for antimagic fields/disjunctions & shot myself down over it.
Rauul 12-04-07, 09:25 PM	I hate the ambiguous state of intelligent weapons of being like constructs. The rules just can't make up their minds on that point. It would be my biggest problem with them, I think. Otherwise, I don't see why we don't just let people buy the things and be done with it. i would rather have Item Familiar as a Feat...
Durzulgor 12-04-07, 09:31 PM	Actually, at relatively low levels an intelligent item would already be a) affordable and b) veeeeery interesting! One of the first things I looked up where the rules on intelligent items around here, since a simple intelligent cloac of resistance +1 that can cast cure moderate wounds 3x per day would have a market price of only 8500gp and the ability to heal you back up if you were to fall below 0hp! Those answers on your questions might already affect my choices of how to deal with my future money! ;-)
Hirumajoe 12-04-07, 09:38 PM	Well, I found the FAQ quote regarding Mage's Disjunction, and it looks like McJarvis is correct. And they leave it vague enough at the end to still leave you wondering about all the other possible actions. Sigh. Would Mordenkainen’s disjunction affect an intelligent magic item? Mordenkainen’s disjunction states that it affects all “magic items” within the radius of the spell. Even though intelligent items are considered to be creatures (specifically constructs, according to page 268 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide), they are also still “magic items” and thus can be affected by Mordenkainen’s disjunction. The Sage can already hear the next question: What’s the difference between a golem (creature; immune to Mordenkainen’s disjunction) and an intelligent magic item (creature; not immune to Mordenkainen’s disjunction)? Unfortunately, this is just one of those places where two completely separate areas of the rules have grown together in an unusual manner. Historically, golems and intelligent magic items haven’t shared much (if anything) in common. But as the rules for golems have made them more like magic items (in that they’re crafted in a similar manner) and the rules for intelligent magic items have made them more like golems (in that they’re considered creatures with the construct type), weird situations like this occur. Two adjacent branches, but growing from slightly different trees, and therefore interacting slightly differently in occasional corner cases of the rules. Here’s the important distinction: Golems are not magic items, and Mordenkainen’s disjunction affects only “magical effects and magic items.” Intelligent magic items are, as one would expect from their name, magic items (even though they’re also creatures), so the spell affects them. If Mordenkainen’s disjunction stated that it affected only objects, the answer might be different (since an intelligent magic item is a creature, not an object). But it doesn’t, so it’s not.
MindWandererB 12-04-07, 11:41 PM	Well, I found the FAQ quote regarding Mage's Disjunction, and it looks like McJarvis is correct. And they leave it vague enough at the end to still leave you wondering about all the other possible actions. Sigh. Oh, I like that. "Why are golems considered creatures while intelligent items are considered items, even though both are constructs?" "Because golems are creatures, and intelligent items are items." Brilliant.
McJarvis 12-05-07, 07:32 AM	Oh, I like that. "Why are golems considered creatures while intelligent items are considered items, even though both are constructs?" "Because golems are creatures, and intelligent items are items." Brilliant. It's so simple. They are magic items with the contruct type. So anything that refers to the construct type in general refers to them, anything that refers to creatures of the construct type don't, and any constructed items obviously include them! :)
Taureus_Drakken 12-05-07, 11:21 AM	Oh, I like that. "Why are golems considered creatures while intelligent items are considered items, even though both are constructs?" "Because golems are creatures, and intelligent items are items." Brilliant. Don't you like the circular logic that is quite often displayed by the FAQ? ;) ~Taureus~
mucki 12-05-07, 11:28 AM	Tbh, I fail to see the problem at all. If I have a golem that is called Bob, and a spell that turns all Bobs into squirrels then it will affect the golem. that bob is also a creature and also a construct pretty much doesn't matter. Likewise an item can be a construct, but also still be an item at the same time. and just because some creatures are constructs that does not make items into creatures or something.
McJarvis 12-05-07, 11:53 AM	just because some creatures are constructs that does not make items into creatures or something. Because the rules specifically say they do? Intelligent items can actually be considered creatures because they have Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. Treat them as constructs. Essentially, as far as I see it, the FAQ is an errata to remove this sentance from the SRD.
mucki 12-05-07, 12:01 PM	Maybe they are all three ? they are creatures and items and constructs ? (and probably also weapons, depending on what type of item it actually is). That would still make mordekainen work. PS: In fact reading hirumajoes post again, that is exactly what the FAQ says.
McJarvis 12-05-07, 12:08 PM	Maybe they are all three ? they are creatures and items and constructs ? (and probably also weapons, depending on what type of item it actually is). That would still make mordekainen work. PS: In fact reading hirumajoes post again, that is exactly what the FAQ says. Not really. The FAQ says constructs are pseudo-items/creatures, but they are immune to disjunction because they are more creatures than items. [ie- they are not items for any purpose other than posterity]. Apparently intelligent items are the same way, but in reverse.
Hirumajoe 12-05-07, 12:09 PM	Tbh, I fail to see the problem at all. If I have a golem that is called Bob, and a spell that turns all Bobs into squirrels then it will affect the golem. that bob is also a creature and also a construct pretty much doesn't matter. Likewise an item can be a construct, but also still be an item at the same time. and just because some creatures are constructs that does not make items into creatures or something. Actually, they explicitly say in that quoted section that intelligent magic items *are* creatures (with the construct type), and *not* objects. Intelligent magic items are, as one would expect from their name, magic items (even though they’re also creatures), so the spell affects them. If Mordenkainen’s disjunction stated that it affected only objects, the answer might be different (since an intelligent magic item is a creature, not an object). I guess you're right though. Its more of, intelligent magic items are creatures with the construct *and* magic item designators. They are not objects. I suppose it also means if its an intelligent sword magic item it is a creature with the construct, magic item, and weapon designators. Hmm. What happens when we apply this all the way... Quickly checking the SRD for wording on Sunder and Disarm, I find that it uses the words weapon or shield in the usual opposed sunder case, but object in the held/worn case. So you could sunder wielded weapon and shield intelligent items, but not worn ones... Disarm fortunately doesn't refer to objects, just weapons and non-weapons. Which means you should disarm them as normal. This also brings me to the wonderfully fun questions of how do intelligent item "creatures" interact with the 3FC. Do they "stay dead" if they're destroyed. Do we assign them a CR rating and count against ally limits like a Golem would? (I just had a horrible idea for a random monster... The intelligent Evil Sword of Fire, with the special purpose of destroying Gladiators (with the unlimited 10d6 fireball option). Made out of adamantine of course. Probably would have to re-roll on anything other than the plains. Or you could give it a couple of CR 1 goblin lackeys...)
McJarvis 12-05-07, 12:10 PM	I'm uncomfortable with that interpretation hirm. Either a monk's belt is sunderable or not- whether it is intelligent shouldn't be a factor. (that makes even LESS sense than the "disjunction proof" intelligent item) On the other hand- that could be even worse. Now people don't need to use the sunder action to attack your worn intelligent item. Say hello to energy missile being able to target your item and you at the same time- and it ALWAYS being hit by fireball.
Hirumajoe 12-05-07, 12:24 PM	I'm uncomfortable with that interpretation hirm. Either a monk's belt is sunderable or not- whether it is intelligent shouldn't be a factor. (that makes even LESS sense than the "disjunction proof" intelligent item) On the other hand- that could be even worse. Now people don't need to use the sunder action to attack your worn intelligent item. Say hello to energy missile being able to target your item and you at the same time- and it ALWAYS being hit by fireball. As far as I can tell, those implications are correct. Also, realize, the hardness should start acting like psi-crystal hardness (so no quarter or half damage from elemental type attacks). Its saving throws will be reasonable though, since from the breaking things section of the SRD, it notes magic items have saves equal to CL + 2 or its owner, which ever is better. (And it uses "non-magical and magical item" terminology rather than "object and creature" terminology. Which the Sage specifically notes as being important. Sigh. How much you want to bet none of these other sections were written with intelligent magic items in mind when they chose their wording? Edit: Note, they don't even *need* to sunder. They simply declare an attack on a creature. No AoOs, no funny opposed roles. And that lack of armor and 0 Dex is going to really put a crimp in its AC... Edit 2: I'd almost suggest that if intelligent items are allowed (and thats a big if - they bring along a ton of headaches), that the line "intelligent items are considered creatures of the construct type" be house ruled out. Then just house rule them to have a standard action on the players initiative and be done with it. At which point everything which affects objects and items and magic items operates exactly as you would expect.
McJarvis 12-05-07, 12:33 PM	Edit: Note, they don't even *need* to sunder. They simply declare an attack on a creature. No AoOs, no funny opposed roles. And that lack of armor and 0 Dex is going to really put a crimp in its AC... Yeah. read my edited note on energy missile/scorching ray/fireball/etc/etc being able to hit them if this is the case. (!!!!!) Who would want an intelligent item at that point?
whitebaron 12-05-07, 03:25 PM	first proposed change to Community-Fight "Monster Hunt": Monsters start in the rolled square, if the square is FULL, it starts in the NEAREST UNOCCUPIED square. i just tried, the rerolls can get you crazy in places like the sewer. btw, this is the starting map: http://www.hwx.it/coco/coco.php;v=1;map=sewer;a=Name,M,30,3,Dar ian;b=Name,M,30,30,Remnant;c=Name,M,2,3, Ackbar;d=Name,M,8,12,M1;e=Name,M,31,11,M 2;f=Name,M,18,13,M3;style=s
MindWandererB 12-05-07, 03:55 PM	first proposed change to Community-Fight "Monster Hunt": Monsters start in the rolled square, if the square is FULL, it starts in the NEAREST UNOCCUPIED square. i just tried, the rerolls can get you crazy in places like the sewer. btw, this is the starting map: http://www.hwx.it/coco/coco.php;v=1;map=sewer;a=Name,M,30,3,Dar ian;b=Name,M,30,30,Remnant;c=Name,M,2,3, Ackbar;d=Name,M,8,12,M1;e=Name,M,31,11,M 2;f=Name,M,18,13,M3;style=s How would "nearest unoccupied" be any better? I fully expected there to be a clustering like this, but with the multiple "respawns," it should more or less balance out. And these fights shouldn't be taken too seriously anyway. ...Oh, I see; the sewer has more closed spaces than empty ones. The implication would be that monsters would tend to cluster around the edges of objects if the "closest open" rule was used. In the sewer it doesn't really matter, but in the arena and temple it might be somewhat significant.
mucki 12-05-07, 04:01 PM	Well, in places with more open space it is less likely that monsters would be in a closed square and therefore the problem would not be so big.
MindWandererB 12-05-07, 04:06 PM	Well, in places with more open space it is less likely that monsters would be in a closed square and therefore the problem would not be so big. I'm thinking that in the arena, since it's circular, many monsters would cluster around the edges of the map. The temple is less obvious, but there would be slightly more monsters stuck in the margin between the statue and the lava in the center. Not sure about how to deal with the City, but fortunately that's not a valid map for a monster hunt right now anyway.
whitebaron 12-05-07, 04:09 PM	...Oh, I see; the sewer has more closed spaces than empty ones. The implication would be that monsters would tend to cluster around the edges of objects if the "closest open" rule was used. In the sewer it doesn't really matter, but in the arena and temple it might be somewhat significant. i don't think its significant. you've got about 50% chance in the sewer to roll inside an object. about 10% in the arena. about 1% in the plains. though i would not place any monster hunt in the plains. forest and plains should be taboo. (forest due to LoS issues, which in a 6 participant fight might be really annoying for pitlord) and plains due to its sheer size and easyness to avoid or find the monsters.
MindWandererB 12-05-07, 04:29 PM	i don't think its significant. you've got about 50% chance in the temple to roll inside an object. about 10% in the arena. about 1% in the plains. though i would not place any monster hunt in the plains. forest and plains should be taboo. (forest due to LoS issues, which in a 6 participant fight might be really annoying for pitlord) and plains due to its sheer size and easyness to avoid or find the monsters. Forest is out, for the obvious reason. (City for the same.) Plains I figured would be fine, since the size and openness sort of cancel out when it comes to hunting something down.
whitebaron 12-05-07, 04:40 PM	Forest is out, for the obvious reason. (City for the same.) Plains I figured would be fine, since the size and openness sort of cancel out when it comes to hunting something down. problems with plains: most players will want to get ranged attacks in as well, forcing the pitlord to check distance far more often. also a problem i already see in the playtesting tactics i received are wands - players don't care about using all they got when they actually don't have to pay for it.
whitebaron 12-06-07, 02:48 AM	rounds 1-14 of the playtest are up. we should get rid of any single-movers or very slow creatures for the monster hunt. it's plain boring. @vath: well, it were zombies - no subdual damage, no mind-affecting. @lonewolf+taureus: it's 2d6+2 (avg: 9) vs 1d10+4(avg:9.5), both of you need a 6 to hit, and darian is up 2-1 and out of pp. do you want me to continue?
mucki 12-06-07, 06:00 AM	I'm thinking that in the arena, since it's circular, many monsters would cluster around the edges of the map. The temple is less obvious, but there would be slightly more monsters stuck in the margin between the statue and the lava in the center. Not sure about how to deal with the City, but fortunately that's not a valid map for a monster hunt right now anyway. If it becomes noticeable we might be able to position the monsters 1d4 squares away from the edge or something. Or, to avoid the problems totally, and make it even easier for the pitlord, generate 100 predefined spawnpoints on the map that are well distributed, and the pitlord positions the monster using 1d100. (Though a lookup table of 100 entries might be cumbersome again, maybe 20 are enough ?)
whitebaron 12-06-07, 09:00 AM	2 questions about free skill packages and money. a) you know you will gain at least xxx GP (ecl*100) in the next fight. you want to craft/buy_with_discount/use_gather_info for an item. can you do this with the money you earn in that fight? b) same question, but with money raised via sell item. objects crafted are usually only gotten at the end of the 3FC, i hope it is not the same for money. 3rd question about something else: c) something i did not find in the rules - is it actually possible to use a full action mid-cycle?
McJarvis 12-06-07, 09:12 AM	For all the talk of closing upper leagues to eliminate a gap of fights- there sure is an almost even distribution among all the leagues this week.
templer10 12-06-07, 02:10 PM	i need a reminder - If i need to make were dire tigers for a monster fight - are they done with 25 point buy or Elite array?
TelinArtho 12-06-07, 02:40 PM	On another note, I'm looking over my options for the planar cohort at Thaumaturgist 5 (next level). This will enable me to get a leadership-like ally for a set cost (1000gp per HD) - but the question is what to get? Raskos's Yaurl is an obvious source of inspiration. I would be able to start with a large sized Yeth Hound or Shadow Mastiff. Both of these would be useful allies - the former having supernatural, wing-less flight, the latter having the ability to conceal in shadows. They both would have the downside of being large creatures (which is sometimes a hindrance), but would be oppressive melee combatants. The yeth hound does have DR10/silver - which is not to be underestimated. A Nightmare would likewise be a nice option and adds flight and etherealness to the mix to help deal with the incorporeal opponents I might be fighting. The nightmare is not nearly the offensive force of the former two - but the etherealness is not something to discount. All of the above are solid options in my opinion. Other solid options I'm looking at: Xill - I would be able to add a class level to a standard Xill. With planeshifting - it helps with the incorporeal foes and can be a solid ranged and melee force. The improved grab/paralysis is not too useful (only activates against small or smaller opponents), but is nice to have. The SR of 21 is of course the best I can get to start with. No DR though. The xill would require a modicum of money invested just in variety of weapons - but that's not necessarily a reason to discount it entirely. A tiefling with plenty of class levels (9 to be exact) is obviously a solid choice if I wanted a more "traditional" cohort. Likewise, a half-fiend something with 6HD would be an option to work with. Mephits are not out of the question - but I'm not sure that they would be the best option. Azers, Dretches, Hell Hounds, Flamebrother Salamanders and Howlers have all already been removed from my short list as options because they would not be as good as some of the others. Some quick breakdowns on the options I'm looking at: Nightmare, Large Outsider (Evil Extraplanar) - Neutral Evil HD 6d8+30; hp 57; init +4; speed 40ft, Fly 90ft (good); AC 26 (-1 sz, +4 dex, +13 nat), Touch 13, Flat-footed 22; 2 Hooves +10 melee (1d8+5dmg +1d4 fire) and Bite +5 melee (1d8+2); Saves +10/+9/+6 S 20 D 18 C 20 I 15 W 12 Ch 12 Skills: +9 skill points, Concentration +12, Diplomacy +3, Intimidate +10, Knowledge (the planes) +10, Listen +12, Move Silently +11, Search +10, Sense Motive +10, Spot +12, Survival +10 (+12 on other planes and following tracks) Feats: 3 feats Specials: Natural weapons are treated as evil for purposes of DR; Flaming Hooves, Smoke (15ft cone, Fort DC18 or take -2 on all attack and damage rolls until 1d6 minutes after leaving cone's area, Cone lasts 1 round and the nightmare can use it as a free action each round. Constitution-based DC; Also, because of the smoke - nightmares have concealment against creatures 5ft away and total concealment from creatures more than 5ft away. The nightmare is not affected by smoke nor is its sight restricted because of it.); Darkvision 60ft; Astral Projection and Etherealness (CL20) Equipment that would be wanted: Chain Shirt, str booster Shadow Mastiff, Large Outsider (Extraplanar) - Neutral Evil HD 7d8+49; hp 80.5; init +1; speed 50ft; AC 15 (-1 sz, +1 dex, +5 nat), Touch 10, Flat-footed 15; Bite +15 melee (1d8+13); Saves: Fort +12, Ref +6, Will +5 S 29 D 13 C 24 I 4 W 10 Ch 14 Skills: +15 skill points, Hide +8, Listen +8, Move Silently +8, Spot +8, Survival +8* Feats: 3 feats Specials: Bay (300ft spread; Will DC 13+Cha or panick for 2d4 rounds; Trip (on successful bite), Darkvision 60ft, Shadow Blend, Scent Equipment that would be wanted: Chain shirt, more AC boosting, some flight possibility Yeth Hound, Large Outsider (Evil Extraplanar) - Neutral Evil HD 7d8+42; hp 73.5; init +2; speed 40ft, fly 60ft (good); AC 21 (-1 sz, +2 dex, +10 nat), Touch 11, Flat-footed 21; Bite +16 melee (2d6+15); Saves: Fort +11, Ref +7, Will +8 S 30 D 14 C 22 I 6 W 17 Ch 8 Skills: +24 skill points, Listen +11, Spot +11, Search +7, Survival +11 (+13 following tracks)* Feats: 3 feats Specials: Bay (300ft spread; Will DC 13+Cha or panick for 2d4 rounds; Trip (on successful bite), Darkvision 60ft, DR10/Silver, Flight, Scent Equipment that would be wanted: Chain Shirt, Speed booster (Boots of Speed probably) Xill Barbarian 1, Medium Outsider (Evil Extraplanar) - Neutral Evil HD 5d8+1d12+18; hp 47; init +5; speed 50ft; AC 22 (+5 dex, +7 nat), Touch 15, Flat-footed 17; 4 Claws +10 melee (1d4+4) or combination of weapons; Saves: Fort +7, Ref +9, Will +5 S 18 D 21 C 17 I 14 W 12 Ch 8 Skills: Balance +13, Climb +10, Diplomacy +2, Escape Artist +11, Intimidate +8, Listen +9, Move Silently +11, Sense Motive +8, Spot +9, Tumble +11, Use Rope +3 (+5 with bindings) Feats: MultiattackB, Multiweapon Fighting, Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm Specials: Implant, Improved Grab, Paralysis (Fort DC12+Con or paralysis for 1d4 hours), Darkvision 60ft, Planewalk, SR21 Barbarian: Fast Movement, Rage (1/day, +4 Str/Con, -2 AC, +2 Will for 8 rounds) Equipment that would be wanted: Chain Shirt, Str boost, 2 Comp Longbows (+4 str), Flight option After looking at them all - I'm torn between the versatility of a humanoid-like Xill and the sheer defensive power of the nightmare. With a fast fly speed, total concealment at a distance, a high AC besides - it can be a formidable opponent on its own. The shadow mastiff and yeth hound are pretty much the same with just one ability switched - and although they are massive melee threats, they don't have much to offer beyond their current abilities. The Xill and Nightmare will both have reasonable advancement over time to expand their abilities. I just remembered why I don't use a nightmare for Kraegin now with LPA... language. Is this a similar issue I will have with my planar cohort? Since there's nothing in the entry for Nightmares about their ability/non-ability to speak and they have a decent intelligence - why is speech even a question? (I need to go back into my archives on this I suppose...)
TelinArtho 12-06-07, 02:41 PM	i need a reminder - If i need to make were dire tigers for a monster fight - are they done with 25 point buy or Elite array? I recommend using the elite array, but if the dire tigers are just the ones in the SRD (as in, no additional class levels) - you should just use what's in the SRD I believe. (I don't specifically know to what you are referring, so I figured I'd mention that)
templer10 12-06-07, 02:44 PM	I recommend using the elite array, but if the dire tigers are just the ones in the SRD (as in, no additional class levels) - you should just use what's in the SRD I believe. (I don't specifically know to what you are referring, so I figured I'd mention that) it's were DIRE tigers unfourtently so i can't
templer10 12-06-07, 02:54 PM	Could someone explain to me - since iam not so strong on CR math- how exacly a Half giant Were DIRE tiger is CR 6?
TelinArtho 12-06-07, 03:00 PM	Simple - some template mechanics can be easily broken. Since the lycanthrope template adds a limited amount of CR per HD (1 HD or 2 HD, +2; 3 HD to 5 HD, +3; 6 HD to 10 HD, +4; 11 HD to 20 HD, +5; 21 or more HD, +6), it only increases a little in most cases. Pretty easy to handle with low HD animals on most humanoids and with big HD animals on big giants; unfortunately, they become pretty tough on humanoids with big animals... 16HD base animal = +5 CR Half-giant Warrior 1 Were Dire Tiger = CR6. And by the way - since the base class will be warrior - the non-elite array should be used (as opposed to elite).
Salrantol 12-06-07, 03:13 PM	2 questions about free skill packages and money. a) you know you will gain at least xxx GP (ecl*100) in the next fight. you want to craft/buy_with_discount/use_gather_info for an item. can you do this with the money you earn in that fight? b) same question, but with money raised via sell item. objects crafted are usually only gotten at the end of the 3FC, i hope it is not the same for money. 3rd question about something else: c) something i did not find in the rules - is it actually possible to use a full action mid-cycle?No, no, and no.
Salrantol 12-06-07, 03:18 PM	What would be the cost of adding the claw ability of demon armor onto a different suit of armor (rather than +4 full plate) and without the contagion effect?
templer10 12-06-07, 03:24 PM	Simple - some template mechanics can be easily broken. Since the lycanthrope template adds a limited amount of CR per HD (1 HD or 2 HD, +2; 3 HD to 5 HD, +3; 6 HD to 10 HD, +4; 11 HD to 20 HD, +5; 21 or more HD, +6), it only increases a little in most cases. Pretty easy to handle with low HD animals on most humanoids and with big HD animals on big giants; unfortunately, they become pretty tough on humanoids with big animals... 16HD base animal = +5 CR Half-giant Warrior 1 Were Dire Tiger = CR6. And by the way - since the base class will be warrior - the non-elite array should be used (as opposed to elite). sigh - after i was done making it with elite array...
TelinArtho 12-06-07, 03:37 PM	What would be the cost of adding the claw ability of demon armor onto a different suit of armor (rather than +4 full plate) and without the contagion effect? Before you balk at the price estimate I give below, realize that a magical 1d10 attack that cannot be disarmed is huge... Demon Plate Armor: 52260gp Breakdown: [Ma] Full Plate - 1650gp +4 Enhancement - 4^2*1000 = 16000gp Contagion (use-activated) - SL3*CL5*2000 = 30000gp Magical 1d10 dmg Claws = 27000gp Alignment adjustment - negative 30% I'd probably say that 27kgp is on the high side, but that's what I could safely estimate.
Salrantol 12-06-07, 05:38 PM	Before you balk at the price estimate I give below, realize that a magical 1d10 attack that cannot be disarmed is huge... Demon Plate Armor: 52260gp Breakdown: [Ma] Full Plate - 1650gp +4 Enhancement - 4^2*1000 = 16000gp Contagion (use-activated) - SL3*CL5*2000 = 30000gp Magical 1d10 dmg Claws = 27000gp Alignment adjustment - negative 30% I'd probably say that 27kgp is on the high side, but that's what I could safely estimate.So it doesn't matter that it's CL 13? Because I really liked... 52260 /.7 alignment restriction =~74650 -17650 +4 full plate =57000 -(SL3*CL13*2000) =1000 ...but knew that couldn't be right. So it's... 74650 -17650 +4 full plate =57000 -(SL3*CL5*2000) =27000 ...and I doubt that as a custom item I'd be allowed to keep the alignment-restriction and get it for 18.9k.
hogarth 12-06-07, 07:01 PM	What would be the cost of adding the claw ability of demon armor onto a different suit of armor (rather than +4 full plate) and without the contagion effect? I would suggest just using the power Claws of the Beast as a basis: ML 1 Claws of the Beast = 2000 gp two +1 enhancement bonuses = 4000 gp Total: 6000 gp Of course, those claws do only 1d6 base damage, not 1d10. And you can't use them in conjunction with a weapon.
Salrantol 12-06-07, 10:49 PM	Again regarding custom items, is it possible to make a custom, unlimited-use spell-completion or spell-trigger item? This is, of course, as opposed to command word, so that if somehow taken away, someone would have to have the spell on their list to use it. Looking at the table, I see that single-use use-activated items cost twice as much as single-use spell-completion items, so would an unlimited-use spell-completion item cost half as much as an unlimited-use use-activated item? Or, barring that, could one just pay the same cost as for a command-word item, but have the item be spell-completion or spell-trigger for activation?
Durzulgor 12-07-07, 12:30 AM	Just a simple question: Can a familiar have fewer hit points than hit dice? According to the rules for familiars they always have half as many HP as their masters, rounded down. So Undurion (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14520839&postcount=1269) has a 3 HD familiar that has only one HP! Or does he have the minimal 3HP? Ps: be afraid, once Undurion can cast polymorph! *harhar*
MindWandererB 12-07-07, 12:48 AM	Just a simple question: Can a familiar have fewer hit points than hit dice? According to the rules for familiars they always have half as many HP as their masters, rounded down. So Undurion (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14520839&postcount=1269) has a 3 HD familiar that has only one HP! Or does he have the minimal 3HP? Ps: be afraid, once Undurion can cast polymorph! *harhar* Hit Points: The familiar has one-half the master’s total hit points (not including temporary hit points), rounded down, regardless of its actual Hit Dice.Yep, just 1 HP. Not sure what you're going to do with Polymorph--remember our size restrictions.
Durzulgor 12-07-07, 12:56 AM	*harhar* you'll see, in a year or so, if I still remember by then! ^^
Hirumajoe 12-07-07, 01:55 AM	I'm suddenly curious as to the maximum starting hit points one could have... Probably something like a Dwarven Barbarian/Psiwarrior. 20 Con and 4 Psionic feats including Psionic body gets you 12 + 4.5x2 + 5x3 + 4x2 = 44 hp.
Durzulgor 12-07-07, 02:15 AM	well, if you start as barbarian you can't take a psionic feat at 1st LV, right? I'd rather take a: Human Psi-War 2, Barb 1 (8 + 4,5 + 6,5) = 19hp Con: 26 (18 base, +4 body adjustment, +4 Rage) = 8x3= 24 Feats: Psionic Body (Lv1), Psionic Body(Lv1, human), Psionic Body(Lv1, Psi-War), Psionic Body(Lv2, Psi-War), Psionic Body (Lv3) = (5x2)x5= 50hp 19 + 24 + 50 = 93hp I guess that's why it's not written "it's effects stack" below this feat....
MindWandererB 12-07-07, 02:18 AM	I'm suddenly curious as to the maximum starting hit points one could have... Probably something like a Dwarven Barbarian/Psiwarrior. 20 Con and 4 Psionic feats including Psionic body gets you 12 + 4.5x2 + 5x3 + 4x2 = 44 hp. You couldn't get 4 psionic feats that way, as you're not a psionic character until you take a level of psiwar. And dwarf has no advantage over human: 20 Con = 3 HP over 18 Con, and Human can take Toughness. I think the legal winner would be dwarf or human straight barb with all Toughness: 12 + 6.5*2 + (15+9 or 12+12) = 49. Can't wait for 4e Toughness, though (3 + 1 per level!) @Durz: You ninja'd me, but you can't take a feat twice unless it specifically says you can.
Durzulgor 12-07-07, 02:40 AM	@Durz: You ninja'd me, but you can't take a feat twice unless it specifically says you can. ah! THAT was the piece of info I was missing!
whitebaron 12-07-07, 04:04 AM	No, no, and no. so: if you can't use the money you get from the sold item, you can use the sold item for the rest of the 3fc? would make no sense otherwise.
Callix 12-07-07, 04:18 AM	I was considering a dragon PC (more out of idle contemplation than anything else, though I can afford a Brass Wyrmling), and I had a few questions: 1. Can a dragon take more Dragon HD, and are there any limits on how many you can take? 2. Is there some way for a dragon to "grow up"? For example, could a Brass Wyrmling with 6 HD, by some means, take the additional level adjustment to become Very Young, and how much, if any, credits would this cost? I fully expect the answer to 2 to be "no", but I thought I should ask.
whitebaron 12-07-07, 06:02 AM	I was considering a dragon PC (more out of idle contemplation than anything else, though I can afford a Brass Wyrmling), and I had a few questions: 1. Can a dragon take more Dragon HD, and are there any limits on how many you can take? 2. Is there some way for a dragon to "grow up"? For example, could a Brass Wyrmling with 6 HD, by some means, take the additional level adjustment to become Very Young, and how much, if any, credits would this cost? I fully expect the answer to 2 to be "no", but I thought I should ask. @1: it has advancement in the srd, so i don't see why it should not be possible @2: since the wyrmling to young is +1 LA and +1 HD, i'd suppose it to be 10° and maybe a quest. should not be handled much differently to acquiring a template if you ask me. of course, you'd need to be at the proper max hd, first, or it would cost more. well, i found precedence. look at lord frost. ecl6 to ecl9-quest
hogarth 12-07-07, 07:10 AM	2 questions about free skill packages and money. a) you know you will gain at least xxx GP (ecl*100) in the next fight. you want to craft/buy_with_discount/use_gather_info for an item. can you do this with the money you earn in that fight? b) same question, but with money raised via sell item. objects crafted are usually only gotten at the end of the 3FC, i hope it is not the same for money. 3rd question about something else: c) something i did not find in the rules - is it actually possible to use a full action mid-cycle? a) Sure, why not? b) Since I'm the only person who's use the "Sell Item" action so far, I've been playing it that you get the money right away. c) No, only between cycles. (Obviously Salrantol and I disagree on (a) and (b), so maybe you should go get an Elder's opinion.)
Callix 12-07-07, 07:12 AM	@1: it has advancement in the srd, so i don't see why it should not be possible @2: since the wyrmling to young is +1 LA and +1 HD, i'd suppose it to be 10° and maybe a quest. should not be handled much differently to acquiring a template if you ask me. of course, you'd need to be at the proper max hd, first, or it would cost more. well, i found precedence. look at lord frost. ecl6 to ecl9-quest Thanks, WB. The only other question is whether I'm insane (AKA is it worth it). The whole Con-based-sleep-gas thing seems pretty good to me, even if getting enough damage for a CDG is hard, and you can have UMD and the fire breath for any sleep immunes (elves, undead, etc), along with the whole flying trip. I lied. Another question: Does a Dragon with no Sorceror CL, much like a Paladin with no CL, have a spell list?
Stormwind 12-07-07, 07:18 AM	Thanks, WB. The only other question is whether I'm insane (AKA is it worth it). The whole Con-based-sleep-gas thing seems pretty good to me, even if getting enough damage for a CDG is hard, and you can have UMD and the fire breath for any sleep immunes (elves, undead, etc), along with the whole flying trip. I lied. Another question: Does a Dragon with no Sorceror CL, much like a Paladin with no CL, have a spell list? I would say yes, as a paladin can use a wand of clw before level 4. That is at levels 1-3, a paladin has a spell list even though they can't actually use spells yet. Thus I would expect that the same would apply to dragons that are not yet able to cast spells from the sorcerer list.
Salrantol 12-07-07, 07:55 AM	a) Sure, why not? b) Since I'm the only person who's use the "Sell Item" action so far, I've been playing it that you get the money right away. c) No, only between cycles. (Obviously Salrantol and I disagree on (a) and (b), so maybe you should go get an Elder's opinion.)(b) I'll admit I might be wrong on, but in other cases, the elders have been very consistent on not letting people use the money they're due to earn in a given fight on its free activities (i.e. crafting).
whitebaron 12-07-07, 08:03 AM	Thanks, WB. The only other question is whether I'm insane (AKA is it worth it). The whole Con-based-sleep-gas thing seems pretty good to me, even if getting enough damage for a CDG is hard, and you can have UMD and the fire breath for any sleep immunes (elves, undead, etc), along with the whole flying trip. I lied. Another question: Does a Dragon with no Sorceror CL, much like a Paladin with no CL, have a spell list? use bag of tricks for CDG, as kitty does. might be expensive, but worth it. you are not CL0, you are CL-, which means: no spell list. technically, i think dragons only start casting at young age, and before that they have no knowledge whatsoever. but i could be wrong on that. @sal: it's either continue to use the item and gain the money at the end of 3fc, or lose the item immediately and get the money immediately. which brings me to: do the 3fc actions happen before or after the fight? this would be the easiest answer to this all, as i just had another question: can you use the sold item in the fight you are selling it? :)
McJarvis 12-07-07, 08:21 AM	You couldn't get 4 psionic feats that way, as you're not a psionic character until you take a level of psiwar. And dwarf has no advantage over human: 20 Con = 3 HP over 18 Con, and Human can take Toughness. I think the legal winner would be dwarf or human straight barb with all Toughness: 12 + 6.5*2 + (15+9 or 12+12) = 49. Can't wait for 4e Toughness, though (3 + 1 per level!) @Durz: You ninja'd me, but you can't take a feat twice unless it specifically says you can. from a max hp potential, though, I'd go with wilder. Lvl 3 Wilder Human feats: toughness, toughness, toughness. hp: 6+7(2hd)+12(con)+9(toughness)= 34 base + 3 pp +2 surge vigor 59 hp [50 round duration] + 3 pp share pain with psicrystal = 101 hp of soaking [50 round duration, 51 for three hours] For the build to be viable, dwarf may be preferable so that you could have a dwarven waraxe as weapon...[and better saves] And, of course, vigor powerstones of ML1 or 2 will extend the life by quite a bit.
Macbrea 12-07-07, 08:37 AM	I lied. Another question: Does a Dragon with no Sorceror CL, much like a Paladin with no CL, have a spell list? Yes, you are allowed to use sorceror spell list for use of wands. If your of a dragon type that has a clerics list you can also use those spells in wands.
Macbrea 12-07-07, 08:41 AM	@2: since the wyrmling to young is +1 LA and +1 HD, i'd suppose it to be 10° and maybe a quest. should not be handled much differently to acquiring a template if you ask me. of course, you'd need to be at the proper max hd, first, or it would cost more. well, i found precedence. look at lord frost. ecl6 to ecl9-quest Yes, basically, it cost me 13° to go up to the next age category on Lord Frost. 10° + 3° for the quest. At the time you were allowed to quest at any ECL so, I choose to go after a swarm of cats. I am not exactly sure what quest would be required now. And exactly how you could fail a quest to get older.
hogarth 12-07-07, 08:52 AM	which brings me to: do the 3fc actions happen before or after the fight? this would be the easiest answer to this all, as i just had another question: can you use the sold item in the fight you are selling it? :) This one I can answer (because I asked it in the Courtroom): you can still use the item and sell it at the end of the fight.
lonewolf 12-07-07, 10:07 AM	Can you ready to sunder a reach weapon if the enemy attacks you with it, even if the enemy is out of your own reach, since the weapon isnt?
Durzulgor 12-07-07, 10:40 AM	How, exactly, does fast healing interact with subdual damage? I mean: Can you hit a hydra sensless by just getting enough subdual damage to cover her hitpoints or does she heal that all back up like normal damage?
mucki 12-07-07, 10:44 AM	All healing effects also always heal an equal amount of subdual damage.
Macbrea 12-07-07, 10:48 AM	Can you ready to sunder a reach weapon if the enemy attacks you with it, even if the enemy is out of your own reach, since the weapon isnt? You must be able to reach the wielder in order to sunder their weapon.
TelinArtho 12-07-07, 10:55 AM	How, exactly, does fast healing interact with subdual damage? I mean: Can you hit a hydra sensless by just getting enough subdual damage to cover her hitpoints or does she heal that all back up like normal damage? All healing effects also always heal an equal amount of subdual damage. Actually - while usually true, fast healing is an exception. It heals subdual damage first (rather than an equal amount of both): FAST HEALING A creature with fast healing has the extraordinary ability to regain hit points at an exceptional rate. Except for what is noted here, fast healing is like natural healing. At the beginning of each of the creature’s turns, it heals a certain number of hit points (defined in its description). Unlike regeneration, fast healing does not allow a creature to regrow or reattach lost body parts. A creature that has taken both nonlethal and lethal damage heals the nonlethal damage first. Fast healing does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation. Fast healing does not increase the number of hit points regained when a creature polymorphs. Healing Nonlethal Damage: You heal nonlethal damage at the rate of 1 hit point per hour per character level. When a spell or a magical power cures hit point damage, it also removes an equal amount of nonlethal damage.
TelinArtho 12-07-07, 12:14 PM	On another note, I'm looking over my options for the planar cohort at Thaumaturgist 5 (next level). This will enable me to get a leadership-like ally for a set cost (1000gp per HD) - but the question is what to get? Raskos's Yaurl is an obvious source of inspiration. I would be able to start with a large sized Yeth Hound or Shadow Mastiff. Both of these would be useful allies - the former having supernatural, wing-less flight, the latter having the ability to conceal in shadows. They both would have the downside of being large creatures (which is sometimes a hindrance), but would be oppressive melee combatants. The yeth hound does have DR10/silver - which is not to be underestimated. A Nightmare would likewise be a nice option and adds flight and etherealness to the mix to help deal with the incorporeal opponents I might be fighting. The nightmare is not nearly the offensive force of the former two - but the etherealness is not something to discount. All of the above are solid options in my opinion. Other solid options I'm looking at: Xill - I would be able to add a class level to a standard Xill. With planeshifting - it helps with the incorporeal foes and can be a solid ranged and melee force. The improved grab/paralysis is not too useful (only activates against small or smaller opponents), but is nice to have. The SR of 21 is of course the best I can get to start with. No DR though. The xill would require a modicum of money invested just in variety of weapons - but that's not necessarily a reason to discount it entirely. A tiefling with plenty of class levels (9 to be exact) is obviously a solid choice if I wanted a more "traditional" cohort. Likewise, a half-fiend something with 6HD would be an option to work with. Mephits are not out of the question - but I'm not sure that they would be the best option. Azers, Dretches, Hell Hounds, Flamebrother Salamanders and Howlers have all already been removed from my short list as options because they would not be as good as some of the others. Some quick breakdowns on the options I'm looking at: Nightmare, Large Outsider (Evil Extraplanar) - Neutral Evil HD 6d8+30; hp 57; init +4; speed 40ft, Fly 90ft (good); AC 26 (-1 sz, +4 dex, +13 nat), Touch 13, Flat-footed 22; 2 Hooves +10 melee (1d8+5dmg +1d4 fire) and Bite +5 melee (1d8+2); Saves +10/+9/+6 S 20 D 18 C 20 I 15 W 12 Ch 12 Skills: +9 skill points, Concentration +12, Diplomacy +3, Intimidate +10, Knowledge (the planes) +10, Listen +12, Move Silently +11, Search +10, Sense Motive +10, Spot +12, Survival +10 (+12 on other planes and following tracks) Feats: 3 feats Specials: Natural weapons are treated as evil for purposes of DR; Flaming Hooves, Smoke (15ft cone, Fort DC18 or take -2 on all attack and damage rolls until 1d6 minutes after leaving cone's area, Cone lasts 1 round and the nightmare can use it as a free action each round. Constitution-based DC; Also, because of the smoke - nightmares have concealment against creatures 5ft away and total concealment from creatures more than 5ft away. The nightmare is not affected by smoke nor is its sight restricted because of it.); Darkvision 60ft; Astral Projection and Etherealness (CL20) Equipment that would be wanted: Chain Shirt, str booster Shadow Mastiff, Large Outsider (Extraplanar) - Neutral Evil HD 7d8+49; hp 80.5; init +1; speed 50ft; AC 15 (-1 sz, +1 dex, +5 nat), Touch 10, Flat-footed 15; Bite +15 melee (1d8+13); Saves: Fort +12, Ref +6, Will +5 S 29 D 13 C 24 I 4 W 10 Ch 14 Skills: +15 skill points, Hide +8, Listen +8, Move Silently +8, Spot +8, Survival +8* Feats: 3 feats Specials: Bay (300ft spread; Will DC 13+Cha or panick for 2d4 rounds; Trip (on successful bite), Darkvision 60ft, Shadow Blend, Scent Equipment that would be wanted: Chain shirt, more AC boosting, some flight possibility Yeth Hound, Large Outsider (Evil Extraplanar) - Neutral Evil HD 7d8+42; hp 73.5; init +2; speed 40ft, fly 60ft (good); AC 21 (-1 sz, +2 dex, +10 nat), Touch 11, Flat-footed 21; Bite +16 melee (2d6+15); Saves: Fort +11, Ref +7, Will +8 S 30 D 14 C 22 I 6 W 17 Ch 8 Skills: +24 skill points, Listen +11, Spot +11, Search +7, Survival +11 (+13 following tracks)* Feats: 3 feats Specials: Bay (300ft spread; Will DC 13+Cha or panick for 2d4 rounds; Trip (on successful bite), Darkvision 60ft, DR10/Silver, Flight, Scent Equipment that would be wanted: Chain Shirt, Speed booster (Boots of Speed probably) Xill Barbarian 1, Medium Outsider (Evil Extraplanar) - Neutral Evil HD 5d8+1d12+18; hp 47; init +5; speed 50ft; AC 22 (+5 dex, +7 nat), Touch 15, Flat-footed 17; 4 Claws +10 melee (1d4+4) or combination of weapons; Saves: Fort +7, Ref +9, Will +5 S 18 D 21 C 17 I 14 W 12 Ch 8 Skills: Balance +13, Climb +10, Diplomacy +2, Escape Artist +11, Intimidate +8, Listen +9, Move Silently +11, Sense Motive +8, Spot +9, Tumble +11, Use Rope +3 (+5 with bindings) Feats: MultiattackB, Multiweapon Fighting, Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm Specials: Implant, Improved Grab, Paralysis (Fort DC12+Con or paralysis for 1d4 hours), Darkvision 60ft, Planewalk, SR21 Barbarian: Fast Movement, Rage (1/day, +4 Str/Con, -2 AC, +2 Will for 8 rounds) Equipment that would be wanted: Chain Shirt, Str boost, 2 Comp Longbows (+4 str), Flight option After looking at them all - I'm torn between the versatility of a humanoid-like Xill and the sheer defensive power of the nightmare. With a fast fly speed, total concealment at a distance, a high AC besides - it can be a formidable opponent on its own. The shadow mastiff and yeth hound are pretty much the same with just one ability switched - and although they are massive melee threats, they don't have much to offer beyond their current abilities. The Xill and Nightmare will both have reasonable advancement over time to expand their abilities. I just remembered why I don't use a nightmare for Kraegin now with LPA... language. Is this a similar issue I will have with my planar cohort? Since there's nothing in the entry for Nightmares about their ability/non-ability to speak and they have a decent intelligence - why is speech even a question? (I need to go back into my archives on this I suppose...) bump - anyone?
Macbrea 12-07-07, 12:54 PM	I am not sure as to the reasoning behind saying a nightmare is unable to communicate with you. Monster Intelligence A creature can speak all the languages mentioned in its description, plus one additional language per point of Intelligence bonus. Any creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher understands at least one language (Common, unless noted otherwise). Lesser Planar ally You may ask the creature to perform one task in exchange for a payment from you. Tasks might range from the simple to the complex. You must be able to communicate with the creature called in order to bargain for its services. Nightmare stat-line Str 18, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 12 Yup, that appears to follow the rules on creatures as per the SRD. Am I missing something in the creature being able to understand you is unable to communicate yes or no to a deal?
TelinArtho 12-07-07, 01:07 PM	Well, the argument was in the Council III thread: [Post 1196] Author : Tellish_of_Ket Date : 02-28-07 11:23 PM Thread Title : Re: The Council of Gladius (III) Come to think of it...what language does a nightmare speak? Tellish -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1197] Author : NiQil Date : 02-28-07 11:34 PM Thread Title : Re: The Council of Gladius (III) Come to think of it...what language does a nightmare speak? Tellish Do nightmare's speak? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1198] Author : Erithmu Date : 02-28-07 11:41 PM Thread Title : Re: The Council of Gladius (III) Do nightmare's speak? w/ 13 int I would think so. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1199] Author : MindWandererB Date : 02-28-07 11:52 PM Thread Title : Re: The Council of Gladius (III) w/ 13 int I would think so. Int isn't the only thing you need. It has to have the right apparatus. Griffons, for instance, can understand Common but can't speak it. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1200] Author : Tellish_of_Ket Date : 02-28-07 11:58 PM Thread Title : Re: The Council of Gladius (III) It's actually a very important question. I can't find anything indicating they are able to communicate. It's not infernal, that's lawful evil outsiders abyssal is chaotic evil outsiders ignan is firebased, and it doesn't have the fire subtype. So, what means does it have to communicate? Tellish -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1201] Author : MindWandererB Date : 03-01-07 12:07 AM Thread Title : Re: The Council of Gladius (III) If it doesn't have a language listed, it doesn't speak a language. That's my opinion, anyway. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1202] Author : Tellish_of_Ket Date : 03-01-07 12:20 AM Thread Title : Re: The Council of Gladius (III) If it doesn't have a language listed, it doesn't speak a language. That's my opinion, anyway. OK, so i guess now with the final enigma. LPA: "You must be able to communicate with the creature called in order to bargain for its services." Is it safe to assume then, that unless i can use telepathy, i cannot call a nightmare with LPA? Tellish Essentially, unlike a lot of other creatures in the SRD, the nightmare simply doesn't have a line about what it can/can't do. At the time of this (before the Ironman), MWB was an elder and Cat was still in charge. ToK was acting as an elder when needed. NiQil and myself were elders at the time as well.
mucki 12-07-07, 01:26 PM	Well, shouldn't it be enough if one person can talk and the other can understand it ? I mean it can nod yes or no, or something back to indicate that it accepts what you want of it. Not exactly high-tech, but definitely communication imho. The way I read the SRD a nightmare should understand languages (common, because its not otherwise noted) and one extra due to int.
Hirumajoe 12-07-07, 01:33 PM	Essentially, unlike a lot of other creatures in the SRD, the nightmare simply doesn't have a line about what it can/can't do. At the time of this (before the Ironman), MWB was an elder and Cat was still in charge. ToK was acting as an elder when needed. NiQil and myself were elders at the time as well. In the case where it doesn't have a line about what it can and cannot do, you go to the more general rules. Intelligence A creature can speak all the languages mentioned in its description, plus one additional language per point of Intelligence bonus. Any creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher understands at least one language (Common, unless noted otherwise). As far as I can tell, it speaks one language since it has no listed languages plus 1 for its int bonus. There's nothing else in the Nightmare description to indicate otherwise. Since it has an intelligence of at least 3, the one language it understands (and thus speaks) is Common. Anything else is a house rule (however reasonable or unreasonable) it may be. Also remember this thing looks like its a horse, but its really a magically powered who-knows-what-on-the-inside outsider. :)
McJarvis 12-07-07, 02:09 PM	Out of curiosity, why do we handle monster fight equipment the way we do? If you choose to equip a monster with gear, use its ECL as its character level for purposes of determining how much equipment it can purchase.Generally, only monsters with an Advancement entry of “By character class” receive NPC gear; other creatures adding character levels should be treated as monsters of the appropriate CR and assigned treasure, not equipment. 1) So far as I know, we use CR to determine monster gear[on the npc chart] 2) Also so far as I know, monsters get equipment regardless of whether they are supposed to only get treasure[such as with the cloaker fight I did with kraknol]
whitebaron 12-07-07, 02:23 PM	maybe this should go to the council, as well. - it really fits the current discussion there.
hogarth 12-07-07, 02:32 PM	Out of curiosity, why do we handle monster fight equipment the way we do? 1) So far as I know, we use CR to determine monster gear[on the npc chart] 2) Also so far as I know, monsters get equipment regardless of whether they are supposed to only get treature[such as with the cloaker fight I did with kraknol] There's this line in the SRD, too: "Intelligent creatures that own useful, portable treasure (such as magic items) tend to carry and use these[.]" So at least some treasure should be equipment; we just assume most/all of it is "useful, portable treasure" and we give monsters the NPC amount rather than rolling on the treasure tables.
mucki 12-07-07, 04:07 PM	What always struck me as odd about monster equipment in CoCo was the fact that a monster basically had an equipment per fight. Now, don't get me wrong. I am not assuming that any pitlord is specifically crafting monster equipment towards/against the opponent. Given the fact that this would be an awful lot of work I guess it would be more like the opposite. However, it would seem more fair (and probably easier on the pitlords too) to me, if monsters in the list just had a fixed set of equip. Whoever crafts the monster would then have to think about all possible opponents and get equipment accordingly. That would at least balance the fact that players have to invest their money in lots of different things because their gear must work in a lot of different situations.
TelinArtho 12-07-07, 05:58 PM	Therador has basically an autoloss this week: 4 halfdragon hound Archons. If you dont have enough knowledge skills to identify the color of the halfdragons and thus use the correct energy resistance, the breath weapons 4x 6d8 will kill you even if you succeed the reflex saves. I just was looking at this statement and the setup for the fight. I have to ask - lonewolf - why didn't you use your wand of resist energy? Each charge is only 105gp - so using three to cover Acid, Cold and Electricity is only 315gp - just barely more than a single potion of resist energy. I realize there were other possibilities of what your opponents were (babau and bralani) - but since they also have elemental attacks (acid and electricity respectively) - it would seem to me to be a solid route to take. Anyway - I'm just curious.
lonewolf 12-07-07, 06:07 PM	I just was looking at this statement and the setup for the fight. I have to ask - lonewolf - why didn't you use your wand of resist energy? Each charge is only 105gp - so using three to cover Acid, Cold and Electricity is only 315gp - just barely more than a single potion of resist energy. I realize there were other possibilities of what your opponents were (babau and bralani) - but since they also have elemental attacks (acid and electricity respectively) - it would seem to me to be a solid route to take. Anyway - I'm just curious. honestly because I didnt think of that option. But even with the resist energy this would be a VERY tough fight with their high buffed AC and DR10/evil.
whitebaron 12-07-07, 06:19 PM	I just was looking at this statement and the setup for the fight. I have to ask - lonewolf - why didn't you use your wand of resist energy? Each charge is only 105gp - so using three to cover Acid, Cold and Electricity is only 315gp - just barely more than a single potion of resist energy. @telin: Same Effect with Differing Results: The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts. resist energy does not specify that you can do it more than once, and therefore, only the last casted resist will be effective, the others are kinda sleeping...
Hirumajoe 12-07-07, 06:54 PM	@telin: resist energy does not specify that you can do it more than once, and therefore, only the last casted resist will be effective, the others are kinda sleeping... Actually... Its not the same effect. Its different effects. In the first case the effect is grant fire resistance 10, in the second its grant electricity resistance 10. Now if both were cast to produce fire resistance 10, then yes, they wouldn't stack, and you simply be left with fire resistance 10. (You'd have to wait for both durations to run out or dispel both effects though to remove that protection). Another way to put it is the final effect (elec resistance 10) doesn't make the first effect (fire resistance 10) irrelevant.
McJarvis 12-07-07, 07:02 PM	Actually... Its not the same effect. Its different effects. In the first case the effect is grant fire resistance 10, in the second its grant electricity resistance 10. Now if both were cast to produce fire resistance 10, then yes, they wouldn't stack, and you simply be left with fire resistance 10. (You'd have to wait for both durations to run out or dispel both effects though to remove that protection). Another way to put it is the final effect (elec resistance 10) doesn't make the first effect (fire resistance 10) irrelevant. Right. The passage WB is referring to is talking about things like casting mirror image multiple times- or resist energy and protection from the same kind of energy at once.
whitebaron 12-07-07, 07:19 PM	Right. The passage WB is referring to is talking about things like casting mirror image multiple times- or resist energy and protection from the same kind of energy at once. actually, it is not. it specifically states that "if the SAME spell produces varying effects."
MindWandererB 12-07-07, 08:06 PM	actually, it is not. it specifically states that "if the SAME spell produces varying effects." It's referring to things like Polymorph, where the last effect trumps any earlier ones. If a later effect, whether from the same spell or a different one, doesn't make an earlier one irrelevant, then they all apply. "Irrelevant" doesn't mean "dormant" or "suppressed," it means that it doesn't matter whether or not it's working because something else is overriding it.
whitebaron 12-07-07, 08:25 PM	this is all RAI reading of the rules. if this is how the rules are to be used, ok. but varying results of the same spell are for sure also different energy types.
MindWandererB 12-07-07, 08:27 PM	this is all RAI reading of the rules. if this is how the rules are to be used, ok. but varying results of the same spell are for sure also different energy types. No, it's really not. They are indeed different versions of the same spell, but there's no other way you can read the word "irrelevant."
whitebaron 12-08-07, 07:53 AM	well, i agree that you should be able to do different resists at once. but the rules don't exactly back it up. (neither do they invalidate the other option) - they use things like "usually" very often in the rules - which simply means "we have not thought everything out and want to let some options open" i hope they're going to change some of those approaches to rules-writing in 4e. some other spells and powers concerned by this which should be castable with multiple versions: fire shield bestow curse animal affinity bestow power claw of energy weapon of energy
lonewolf 12-08-07, 08:03 AM	The power where this is most problematic IMHO is Energy Retort. This would allow you to have 4 of them active at once. I am not sure how to deal with this, but Im just showing that it might be problematic to allow multiple castings of the same spell/power.
Vathelokai 12-08-07, 09:23 AM	I was considering a dragon PC (more out of idle contemplation than anything else, though I can afford a Brass Wyrmling), and I had a few questions: 1. Can a dragon take more Dragon HD, and are there any limits on how many you can take? 2. Is there some way for a dragon to "grow up"? For example, could a Brass Wyrmling with 6 HD, by some means, take the additional level adjustment to become Very Young, and how much, if any, credits would this cost? I fully expect the answer to 2 to be "no", but I thought I should ask. The only other question is whether I'm insane (AKA is it worth it). The whole Con-based-sleep-gas thing seems pretty good to me, even if getting enough damage for a CDG is hard, and you can have UMD and the fire breath for any sleep immunes (elves, undead, etc), along with the whole flying trip. I lied. Another question: Does a Dragon with no Sorceror CL, much like a Paladin with no CL, have a spell list? link to Saffron Brass This is my brass wyrmling; for an example. 1) Yes, you can take racial HD in the same way you take class HD. You can take as many as are shown in the monster manual, so something like 100 ECL worth is the max. 2) You pay 5 credits per ECL increase (so 5 per LA), and take a quest. YOu get the advantages of having leveled, so bonus gold for bing in a higher ECL. 3) Spell list: yes, you can. As a dragon you have a spell list and can use it the same way as a lv 1 ranger or paladin. Brass dragons get all cleric and wizard spells; powerful but expensive options. Is it worth it) My opinion is, if it's fun then it is worth it. From the gladiatorial combat point of view.... You need a way to kill elves - bastards are immune to sleep. Remember that 40% of the population of Gladius (at the last census) is elven, and thus immune to magic sleep gas. I used manacles on sleeping foes; if you can't CDG for enough damage, you can at least make them permanently helpless. Dragon CR is under-rated, and dragon ECL is over-rated. You get a lot of fun perks, but in gladiator combat you will be the under-dog. Dragons make good quest characters because of their varied abilities.
Vathelokai 12-08-07, 09:24 AM	Alright! A funeral, back to back 12 hour shifts, winter storm power outages... ****. But I'm back! I'll get caught up on things as quick as I can.
lonewolf 12-08-07, 12:35 PM	I just went through the Pairingsmaker guide and found something interesting: Also remember to randomly change (50% chance) any "Character (Player) vs. Unknown Monster" entries to "Unknown Monster vs. Character (Player)." The only reason for that is if the intend was that attack/defend skill packages should work vs monsters, or am I missing something?
Hirumajoe 12-08-07, 12:42 PM	I just went through the Pairingsmaker guide and found something interesting: The only reason for that is if the intend was that attack/defend skill packages should work vs monsters, or am I missing something? Which is why originally I thought they did. Heck, Valen even benefited from it a few times (actually allowed me to narrow monsters down some in one case). However, other people later on commented that shouldn't happen, and when I received an official elder answer, they said no.
whitebaron 12-08-07, 01:00 PM	i am just thinking loudly: should we start a thread for 4e+wanted changes from the coco-population? as converting characters to 4e might be hard or impossible, and probably would break 4e leagues, this will be a complete new start - and new starts make for easy adjustments. basically, what i'm thinking is that the current PR system is kinda *broken*, monster fights are not where people want them to be (fun, close, challenging), rules could use some major overhauls @allies, @credits, @skill uses, @packages
lonewolf 12-08-07, 01:09 PM	I agree that the chage to 4e is a good time to change many things and that a seperate thread is also a good idea, but for most of the topics you proposed we need to know the 4e rules first, otherwise we cannot really work on how to use them in CoCo. The only things we can already start to discuss are those things that have no D&D rules impact like PR system & credits.
whitebaron 12-08-07, 01:55 PM	The only things we can already start to discuss are those things that have no D&D rules impact like PR system & credits. well, you could at least discuss how monster fights should be seen, how often they should happen (still only fillers) what's the expected result of monster fights (50-50?), should they affect PR? about allies: the problems with allies won't change in the future. i see no reason btw. why handle animal allies, undead allies are still there, but diplomacy allies are not anymore.
hogarth 12-08-07, 03:08 PM	i see no reason btw. why handle animal allies, undead allies are still there, but diplomacy allies are not anymore. Does it really matter? Leadership allies are so much better that everything else pales in comparison, IMO.
Salrantol 12-08-07, 03:33 PM	Does it really matter? Leadership allies are so much better that everything else pales in comparison, IMO.Ah, but undead allies have the advantage of sucking, so people ignore them when writing tactics, so when they *do* hit, the victim is unprepared for it, and it frequently shifts the battle dramatically. Plus, those fat d12 hit dice make them good roadblocks.
whitebaron 12-08-07, 03:47 PM	Does it really matter? Leadership allies are so much better that everything else pales in comparison, IMO. well, this was not about raw power, but about availability and options. :) if you have to take CC ranks in handle animal, you won't be any successful. currently, handle animal can be used to get allies without leadership, which is a good application for it. still, allowing an evil cleric with earth/fire domain to get earth, fire and undead up to his hd controlled seems - better than anything ha can succeed at.
Salrantol 12-08-07, 05:13 PM	well, this was not about raw power, but about availability and options. :) if you have to take CC ranks in handle animal, you won't be any successful. currently, handle animal can be used to get allies without leadership, which is a good application for it. still, allowing an evil cleric with earth/fire domain to get earth, fire and undead up to his hd controlled seems - better than anything ha can succeed at.But he can still only bring a total CR of his ECL-2, with a maximum individual CR of ECL-4, so it's not like he can bring all those allies with him.
Salrantol 12-08-07, 05:55 PM	Can a metamagic rod be used in crafting? For example, if a wizard didn't have the Enlarge Spell feat, but did have a metamagic rod of Enlarge Spell, could he craft a scroll of Enlarged fireball?
whitebaron 12-08-07, 06:17 PM	Can a metamagic rod be used in crafting? For example, if a wizard didn't have the Enlarge Spell feat, but did have a metamagic rod of Enlarge Spell, could he craft a scroll of Enlarged fireball? normally, i'd say: yes. but since in coco, it's prohibited to create items with scrolls, you should be forbidden to add metamagic feats from items as well. as for the allies: yes, you cannot bring them in in one fight. but you're good for 3 fights even if they die any single fight...
MindWandererB 12-08-07, 07:38 PM	well, i agree that you should be able to do different resists at once. but the rules don't exactly back it up. (neither do they invalidate the other option) - they use things like "usually" very often in the rules - which simply means "we have not thought everything out and want to let some options open" i hope they're going to change some of those approaches to rules-writing in 4e. some other spells and powers concerned by this which should be castable with multiple versions: fire shield bestow curse animal affinity bestow power claw of energy weapon of energyExcept when they explicitly say they don't stack (claw and weapon of energy), I'm of the opinion that they would. Yes, Energy Retort too, unless houseruled otherwise.Which is why originally I thought they did. Heck, Valen even benefited from it a few times (actually allowed me to narrow monsters down some in one case). However, other people later on commented that shouldn't happen, and when I received an official elder answer, they said no.Actually, I wrote that part of the guide, under the impression that the packages would work, but a reread of the rules suggested they wouldn't. If we're revising monster fights anyway, we can certainly make it explicit that they do apply. i am just thinking loudly: should we start a thread for 4e+wanted changes from the coco-population? as converting characters to 4e might be hard or impossible, and probably would break 4e leagues, this will be a complete new start - and new starts make for easy adjustments. basically, what i'm thinking is that the current PR system is kinda *broken*, monster fights are not where people want them to be (fun, close, challenging), rules could use some major overhauls @allies, @credits, @skill uses, @packagesWith so little we know about 4e, many of our house rules will need revision. I plan to rebuild almost from the ground up. There's a lot of things that serve no purpose, are unused, etc., and a lot of rules (skill uses, allies, etc.) won't apply the same way. Characters won't be converted. Monster fights will have to be redesigned completely. Characters will fight opponents a level above or below them on a regular basis. Advancing in level, both via XP and starting off higher, will have different costs. And so on, and so forth. We'll keep the 3.5 game going for as long as there's interest, and start up a 4e game as soon as we can figure out how to do it.
big_baloo 12-08-07, 11:19 PM	Hello. I just saw this board after browsing the forums trying to find something else to do while I wait for more games to pop up in the Real Adventures board. This looks quite interesting and I think I'm going to give it a shot.
MindWandererB 12-09-07, 12:25 AM	Hello. I just saw this board after browsing the forums trying to find something else to do while I wait for more games to pop up in the Real Adventures board. This looks quite interesting and I think I'm going to give it a shot. Welcome! If you have any questions or want some tips, go ahead and ask in this thread.
big_baloo 12-09-07, 12:56 AM	Ok, I'll be sure to do that. Thank you.
big_baloo 12-09-07, 04:35 AM	As you look out from wherever you may be, you see the throngs of people bustling about Gladius parted with such ease as to remind you of a fish gliding effortlessly through water. Then you notice what is parting the crowds. A giant orc wades through the various peoples as he enters the city, head and shoulders above most. He is clad in a gleaming breastplate and leather leggings, with a large, wicked-looking shield and bastard sword on his back and a blood-crusted axe in hand. A scowl rests on his face as he peers about, trying to find his way. The people seem to part for him more out of fear of being trampled than anything, although his appearance can't help. As he nears you, you notice that most of what is visible of his heavily muscled torso is covered in scars, old and new alike. The breastplate and shield have dents and scratches, and the weapons look well-worn. The haft of the axe even seems to have bunches of tiny notches cut into it, no doubt marking the number of significant foes defeated in battle. As you watch the orc come nearer, he seems to look directly at you. You notice the hatred, the malice in his eyes, the thirst for blood. His dirty, unkempt, black hair flows down to the small of his back, and a gold loop earing dangles from each ear. Suddenly the orc stops and confronts a small man, quaking in his boots at the sight of the being standing before him. You see the fearful man point just down the road, and the orc walks down to where the man pointed and enters the local tavern. Many eyes linger on the doorway for a moment before returning to their tasks. Ok, my first character, Oruk (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14537096&postcount=1270), is up. If someone would care to look him over to make sure everything is there and in accordance with the rules, I'd appreciate it.
big_baloo 12-09-07, 04:56 AM	Also, are the guilds still running?
Callix 12-09-07, 05:57 AM	Also, are the guilds still running? No, we're in the testing stages of the new Community system. The Guilds collapsed under all the paperwork. Cool intro, BTW. In case you hadn't noticed, there isn't all that much in-character stuff around, apart from quests/mini-quests. Still, it's a lot of fun. Hope you enjoy it.
big_baloo 12-09-07, 06:24 AM	Ah, ok. Oh well, lol. I read throught the East Habari thread and loved the...style...it was created around. I figured I'd put Oruk in there as hired muscle or something, but I guess that won't happen. And what is this new Community system? And thanks for the compliment. I'm not usually very good with descriptive writing, and even now I'm not sure whether that intro had too much description or what-not, but at least someone else likes it, hehe. Hopefully being here will help me develop better creative writing. As for IC stuff, yea, I noticed that. Did it decline with the fall of the guilds?
hogarth 12-09-07, 08:50 AM	As for IC stuff, yea, I noticed that. Did it decline with the fall of the guilds? There are still quests/miniquests/campaigns where roleplaying is happening (like the two anti-Denth campaigns, for instance).
big_baloo 12-09-07, 09:58 AM	Yes, but those are for the included players only.
TelinArtho 12-09-07, 10:12 AM	You can still post into the guild threads. You might not receive responses, but at the same time - you might. Personally, the only reason I haven't been using the guild threads for a roleplaying outlet is I just haven't had the time.
big_baloo 12-09-07, 10:46 AM	Hmm...I may have to do that...:plotting:
Durzulgor 12-09-07, 12:22 PM	Durzulgor looks up from his drink as he notices the orc and grumbles to himself: "It's my third week and already I notive the new guys..." "Hey, new guy! You think you know something about aging? You think you get more agile when it's over? Well, I'll tell you something about raging..." your conditional modifiers for "after raging" are slightly off wrong. Dex should be 10, not 14 and you loose only 1 AC due to the reduced DEX after raging, not 2 "One more thing lad, you might not know it yet, since you can't hit that hard, but once you get better, you'll want to hit your opponents really hard..." power attack is not as limited as combat expertise, you can substract as much as you want from your base attack, not just 5 points "Well, well, now that this is settled, you're welcome to enjoy a drink with me and tell me of your past, you seem to have seen quite something and our fighting style is, well, at least similar!"
Salrantol 12-09-07, 02:12 PM	Again regarding custom items, is it possible to make a custom, unlimited-use spell-completion or spell-trigger item? This is, of course, as opposed to command word, so that if somehow taken away, someone would have to have the spell on their list to use it. Looking at the table, I see that single-use use-activated items cost twice as much as single-use spell-completion items, so would an unlimited-use spell-completion item cost half as much as an unlimited-use use-activated item? Or, barring that, could one just pay the same cost as for a command-word item, but have the item be spell-completion or spell-trigger for activation?:bump:
Erithmu 12-09-07, 02:58 PM	@Sal: I'm not sure what you wanna do with that. From what I'm reading your asking if you can basically have an item that casts a spell an unlimited number of times per day. Which is setting my cheese radar is going off. Example?
big_baloo 12-09-07, 04:35 PM	Durzulgor looks up from his drink as he notices the orc and grumbles to himself: "It's my third week and already I notive the new guys..." "Hey, new guy! You think you know something about aging? You think you get more agile when it's over? Well, I'll tell you something about raging..." your conditional modifiers for "after raging" are slightly off wrong. Dex should be 10, not 14 and you loose only 1 AC due to the reduced DEX after raging, not 2 "One more thing lad, you might not know it yet, since you can't hit that hard, but once you get better, you'll want to hit your opponents really hard..." power attack is not as limited as combat expertise, you can substract as much as you want from your base attack, not just 5 points "Well, well, now that this is settled, you're welcome to enjoy a drink with me and tell me of your past, you seem to have seen quite something and our fighting style is, well, at least similar!" Ah, thank you. Everything has been fixed. And just a note, the Int is more representative of tactical/battle knowledge rather than social customs and courtesies and what-not. The orc whips around at the voice, furious that some mere human might try to tell him how to be a barbarian. "You no barbarian! Oruk squash you like bug on tree, puny human!" Oruk swings his mighty axe through the air, bringing it down on the table where Durzulgor sits, destroying the goblet that had once rested there and nearly breaking the table itself in two. Grinning wickedly, Oruk leans in close to the human, faces inches away from each other, and says "Me no like humans. You watch back, or have axe sticking out." Then as the orc wrenches his axe free from its resting spot, the table finally collapses. Oruk turns and heads out the door, and silence settles over the tavern for a few moments while everyone absorbs the sight they have just witnessed.
Salrantol 12-09-07, 04:59 PM	@Sal: I'm not sure what you wanna do with that. From what I'm reading your asking if you can basically have an item that casts a spell an unlimited number of times per day. Which is setting my cheese radar is going off. Example?An example using an existing item is the hand of the mage. It's a command word, unlimited use item. I'm wondering if you could make a spell-trigger or spell-completion version of the same item, such that it would only be usable by people who had the spell on their spell list, and whether that would have a cost reduction in line with the single-use version of use-activated vs. spell-trigger or if it would just have the same cost as a command word version. So with the example of the hand of the mage, you would have the same item, but only usable by wizards, sorcerers, and Magic-domain clerics, rather than by everybody.
MindWandererB 12-09-07, 05:45 PM	Unlimited-use items need to be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. Some abilities are pretty useless or redundant used that often (like See Invis); others have huge potential for abuse (like most Walls). Re: Community and Guilds: The plan is to get both of these running soon-ish, Community first. Unfortunately, not many of us have a lot of time to figure out rules for these things. There's also the problem that a lot of us apparently have the time to complain about my ideas, but not to suggest anything better. Not that I'm bitter or anything. I actually have some time this week, for the first time in a very long time, and I'll do what I can.
whitebaron 12-09-07, 05:50 PM	There's also the problem that a lot of us apparently have the time to complain about my ideas, but not to suggest anything better. Not that I'm bitter or anything. I actually have some time this week, for the first time in a very long time, and I'll do what I can. as my idea of competitive environment seems to directly contradict yours, i stopped making suggestions(also, they were all summarily shot down). Not that I'm bitter or anything.
Durzulgor 12-09-07, 09:43 PM	"So, so, just another lousy mannered orc then? No barbarian? I might have to teach that fella that one's rage is at it's mightiest when it is controlled and thus used at the right time!" Durzulgor picks up what is left of the table and orderes another drink. "Damn boring week, where is this mad priestess??" "...hmm, maybe I should tell this greenskin, that the good old greatsword is still better than the greataxe? That could make the day interesting..."
big_baloo 12-10-07, 12:34 AM	"So, so, just another lousy mannered orc then? No barbarian? I might have to teach that fella that one's rage is at it's mightiest when it is controlled and thus used at the right time!" Durzulgor picks up what is left of the table and orderes another drink. "Daman boring week, where is this mad priestess??" "...hmm, maybe I should tell this greenskin, that the good old greatsword is still better than the greataxe? That could make the day interesting..." o.O I seemed to have missed the greatsword! Lol. Guess I'll have to go back and add that in. Nah, I'll stick with the greataxe. Its more for flavor anyways, hehe.
big_baloo 12-10-07, 10:55 AM	"Oi! Ye there! If'n ye poin' me in'he direction o' the neares' pub, I be much obliged." Hearing the voice, you look around to find the face that goes with it. Finally, you notice what looks to be a dwarf standing just to your left. However, he appears to be completely devoid of hair. You'd surely have mistaken him for either a human child or a rather tall, bulky gnome if it weren't for that deep voice and the mention of a pub. An inquisitorial look plays across the dwarf's face, replaced shortly by a large grin. When you finally get a good look at the dwarf, you notice the exceptionally well-crafted armor that adorns his frame. Underneath, an assortment of animal furs and linen covers him, except for his arms, which are bare. In one hand is a massive sword, a bit taller than the dwarf himself and made of a purplish-blue crystal that seems to course with lightning on the inside. At the dwarf's hip is a simple-looking crossbow, and a quiver is slung over his back, with the bolts' fletching protruding from the opening, looking like a game-fowl's tail. Your first impression is this is just another gray dwarf looking to get drunk and cause another distubance. Then you notice the gleam in his eyes. A higher intelligence lies behind the white and amber orbs, hinting at something more powerful than a mere dwarf with a sword. When you tell him the pub is a few blocks down and one over, he thanks you, turns and wanders off, no doubt to get a flagon of ale. Ok, my second character, Eine (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14546491&postcount=1271), is up. Also, by they way, Durz, I look forward to the day Oruk and Durzulgor are paired against each other. That should be interesting RP-wise, if nothing else, hehe.
TelinArtho 12-10-07, 12:07 PM	On another note, I'm looking over my options for the planar cohort at Thaumaturgist 5 (next level). This will enable me to get a leadership-like ally for a set cost (1000gp per HD) - but the question is what to get? Raskos's Yaurl is an obvious source of inspiration. I would be able to start with a large sized Yeth Hound or Shadow Mastiff. Both of these would be useful allies - the former having supernatural, wing-less flight, the latter having the ability to conceal in shadows. They both would have the downside of being large creatures (which is sometimes a hindrance), but would be oppressive melee combatants. The yeth hound does have DR10/silver - which is not to be underestimated. A Nightmare would likewise be a nice option and adds flight and etherealness to the mix to help deal with the incorporeal opponents I might be fighting. The nightmare is not nearly the offensive force of the former two - but the etherealness is not something to discount. All of the above are solid options in my opinion. Other solid options I'm looking at: Xill - I would be able to add a class level to a standard Xill. With planeshifting - it helps with the incorporeal foes and can be a solid ranged and melee force. The improved grab/paralysis is not too useful (only activates against small or smaller opponents), but is nice to have. The SR of 21 is of course the best I can get to start with. No DR though. The xill would require a modicum of money invested just in variety of weapons - but that's not necessarily a reason to discount it entirely. A tiefling with plenty of class levels (9 to be exact) is obviously a solid choice if I wanted a more "traditional" cohort. Likewise, a half-fiend something with 6HD would be an option to work with. Mephits are not out of the question - but I'm not sure that they would be the best option. Azers, Dretches, Hell Hounds, Flamebrother Salamanders and Howlers have all already been removed from my short list as options because they would not be as good as some of the others. Some quick breakdowns on the options I'm looking at: Nightmare, Large Outsider (Evil Extraplanar) - Neutral Evil HD 6d8+30; hp 57; init +4; speed 40ft, Fly 90ft (good); AC 26 (-1 sz, +4 dex, +13 nat), Touch 13, Flat-footed 22; 2 Hooves +10 melee (1d8+5dmg +1d4 fire) and Bite +5 melee (1d8+2); Saves +10/+9/+6 S 20 D 18 C 20 I 15 W 12 Ch 12 Skills: +9 skill points, Concentration +12, Diplomacy +3, Intimidate +10, Knowledge (the planes) +10, Listen +12, Move Silently +11, Search +10, Sense Motive +10, Spot +12, Survival +10 (+12 on other planes and following tracks) Feats: 3 feats Specials: Natural weapons are treated as evil for purposes of DR; Flaming Hooves, Smoke (15ft cone, Fort DC18 or take -2 on all attack and damage rolls until 1d6 minutes after leaving cone's area, Cone lasts 1 round and the nightmare can use it as a free action each round. Constitution-based DC; Also, because of the smoke - nightmares have concealment against creatures 5ft away and total concealment from creatures more than 5ft away. The nightmare is not affected by smoke nor is its sight restricted because of it.); Darkvision 60ft; Astral Projection and Etherealness (CL20) Equipment that would be wanted: Chain Shirt, str booster Shadow Mastiff, Large Outsider (Extraplanar) - Neutral Evil HD 7d8+49; hp 80.5; init +1; speed 50ft; AC 15 (-1 sz, +1 dex, +5 nat), Touch 10, Flat-footed 15; Bite +15 melee (1d8+13); Saves: Fort +12, Ref +6, Will +5 S 29 D 13 C 24 I 4 W 10 Ch 14 Skills: +15 skill points, Hide +8, Listen +8, Move Silently +8, Spot +8, Survival +8* Feats: 3 feats Specials: Bay (300ft spread; Will DC 13+Cha or panick for 2d4 rounds; Trip (on successful bite), Darkvision 60ft, Shadow Blend, Scent Equipment that would be wanted: Chain shirt, more AC boosting, some flight possibility Yeth Hound, Large Outsider (Evil Extraplanar) - Neutral Evil HD 7d8+42; hp 73.5; init +2; speed 40ft, fly 60ft (good); AC 21 (-1 sz, +2 dex, +10 nat), Touch 11, Flat-footed 21; Bite +16 melee (2d6+15); Saves: Fort +11, Ref +7, Will +8 S 30 D 14 C 22 I 6 W 17 Ch 8 Skills: +24 skill points, Listen +11, Spot +11, Search +7, Survival +11 (+13 following tracks)* Feats: 3 feats Specials: Bay (300ft spread; Will DC 13+Cha or panick for 2d4 rounds; Trip (on successful bite), Darkvision 60ft, DR10/Silver, Flight, Scent Equipment that would be wanted: Chain Shirt, Speed booster (Boots of Speed probably) Xill Barbarian 1, Medium Outsider (Evil Extraplanar) - Neutral Evil HD 5d8+1d12+18; hp 47; init +5; speed 50ft; AC 22 (+5 dex, +7 nat), Touch 15, Flat-footed 17; 4 Claws +10 melee (1d4+4) or combination of weapons; Saves: Fort +7, Ref +9, Will +5 S 18 D 21 C 17 I 14 W 12 Ch 8 Skills: Balance +13, Climb +10, Diplomacy +2, Escape Artist +11, Intimidate +8, Listen +9, Move Silently +11, Sense Motive +8, Spot +9, Tumble +11, Use Rope +3 (+5 with bindings) Feats: MultiattackB, Multiweapon Fighting, Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm Specials: Implant, Improved Grab, Paralysis (Fort DC12+Con or paralysis for 1d4 hours), Darkvision 60ft, Planewalk, SR21 Barbarian: Fast Movement, Rage (1/day, +4 Str/Con, -2 AC, +2 Will for 8 rounds) Equipment that would be wanted: Chain Shirt, Str boost, 2 Comp Longbows (+4 str), Flight option After looking at them all - I'm torn between the versatility of a humanoid-like Xill and the sheer defensive power of the nightmare. With a fast fly speed, total concealment at a distance, a high AC besides - it can be a formidable opponent on its own. The shadow mastiff and yeth hound are pretty much the same with just one ability switched - and although they are massive melee threats, they don't have much to offer beyond their current abilities. The Xill and Nightmare will both have reasonable advancement over time to expand their abilities. I just remembered why I don't use a nightmare for Kraegin now with LPA... language. Is this a similar issue I will have with my planar cohort? Since there's nothing in the entry for Nightmares about their ability/non-ability to speak and they have a decent intelligence - why is speech even a question? (I need to go back into my archives on this I suppose...) bump - anyone? I am not sure as to the reasoning behind saying a nightmare is unable to communicate with you. Monster Intelligence A creature can speak all the languages mentioned in its description, plus one additional language per point of Intelligence bonus. Any creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher understands at least one language (Common, unless noted otherwise). Lesser Planar ally You may ask the creature to perform one task in exchange for a payment from you. Tasks might range from the simple to the complex. You must be able to communicate with the creature called in order to bargain for its services. Nightmare stat-line Str 18, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 12 Yup, that appears to follow the rules on creatures as per the SRD. Am I missing something in the creature being able to understand you is unable to communicate yes or no to a deal? Well, the argument was in the Council III thread: [Post 1196] Author : Tellish_of_Ket Date : 02-28-07 11:23 PM Thread Title : Re: The Council of Gladius (III) Come to think of it...what language does a nightmare speak? Tellish -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1197] Author : NiQil Date : 02-28-07 11:34 PM Thread Title : Re: The Council of Gladius (III) Come to think of it...what language does a nightmare speak? Tellish Do nightmare's speak? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1198] Author : Erithmu Date : 02-28-07 11:41 PM Thread Title : Re: The Council of Gladius (III) Do nightmare's speak? w/ 13 int I would think so. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1199] Author : MindWandererB Date : 02-28-07 11:52 PM Thread Title : Re: The Council of Gladius (III) w/ 13 int I would think so. Int isn't the only thing you need. It has to have the right apparatus. Griffons, for instance, can understand Common but can't speak it. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1200] Author : Tellish_of_Ket Date : 02-28-07 11:58 PM Thread Title : Re: The Council of Gladius (III) It's actually a very important question. I can't find anything indicating they are able to communicate. It's not infernal, that's lawful evil outsiders abyssal is chaotic evil outsiders ignan is firebased, and it doesn't have the fire subtype. So, what means does it have to communicate? Tellish -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1201] Author : MindWandererB Date : 03-01-07 12:07 AM Thread Title : Re: The Council of Gladius (III) If it doesn't have a language listed, it doesn't speak a language. That's my opinion, anyway. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1202] Author : Tellish_of_Ket Date : 03-01-07 12:20 AM Thread Title : Re: The Council of Gladius (III) If it doesn't have a language listed, it doesn't speak a language. That's my opinion, anyway. OK, so i guess now with the final enigma. LPA: "You must be able to communicate with the creature called in order to bargain for its services." Is it safe to assume then, that unless i can use telepathy, i cannot call a nightmare with LPA? Tellish Essentially, unlike a lot of other creatures in the SRD, the nightmare simply doesn't have a line about what it can/can't do. At the time of this (before the Ironman), MWB was an elder and Cat was still in charge. ToK was acting as an elder when needed. NiQil and myself were elders at the time as well. Well, shouldn't it be enough if one person can talk and the other can understand it ? I mean it can nod yes or no, or something back to indicate that it accepts what you want of it. Not exactly high-tech, but definitely communication imho. The way I read the SRD a nightmare should understand languages (common, because its not otherwise noted) and one extra due to int. In the case where it doesn't have a line about what it can and cannot do, you go to the more general rules. As far as I can tell, it speaks one language since it has no listed languages plus 1 for its int bonus. There's nothing else in the Nightmare description to indicate otherwise. Since it has an intelligence of at least 3, the one language it understands (and thus speaks) is Common. Anything else is a house rule (however reasonable or unreasonable) it may be. Also remember this thing looks like its a horse, but its really a magically powered who-knows-what-on-the-inside outsider. :) Okay - another bump. Just want to resolve this sooner rather than later, since planning for a planar ally does take some preparation...
Durzulgor 12-10-07, 12:28 PM	Also, by they way, Durz, I look forward to the day our Oruk and Durzulgor are paired against each other. That should be interesting RP-wise, if nothing else, hehe. Definitely! The fun part is: You have two chars up, that, combined, would pretty much wrap up the idea behind Durzulgor I I'm really looking forward to meeting you in the arena! Both seem to be able to seriously challenge Durzulgor I. RP-wise I'd rather meet Oruk though! ;-)
big_baloo 12-10-07, 01:07 PM	Definitely! The fun part is: You have two chars up, that, combined, would pretty much wrap up the idea behind Durzulgor I I'm really looking forward to meeting you in the arena! Both seem to be able to seriously challenge Durzulgor I. RP-wise I'd rather meet Oruk though! ;-) Hehe, well let's see how pairings go this week. Who knows, we may get lucky. ;)
McJarvis 12-10-07, 02:18 PM	Crafting Q Thorell wants to craft an adamantine battleaxe during his cycles. How many weeks will this take as a free activity? [axe markets for about 3,2k]
Macbrea 12-10-07, 02:48 PM	1 week, 3200 of 7000 available for the week.
McJarvis 12-10-07, 02:50 PM	1 week, 3200 of 7000 available for the week. can I not do it over several free activities? I'd like to see thorell fighting.
Macbrea 12-10-07, 03:00 PM	I think I have seen someone work on an item over multiple free activities. But in that case it would be 4 of them.
McJarvis 12-10-07, 03:08 PM	I think I have seen someone work on an item over multiple free activities. But in that case it would be 4 of them. Hm. I don't think you can craft for longer than a 3FC of free activities. I'll just craft it when I re-scribe scrolls at the end of next cycle.
Macbrea 12-10-07, 03:14 PM	Yeah, was trying to find example of someone using more then 3 free actions.
Salrantol 12-10-07, 03:24 PM	@TelinArtho: I don't see any reason why you wouldn't be able to speak to a nightmare, for the reasons outlined by Macbrea you quoted. The rules state that a creature of INT 3+ that doesn't have a language listed speaks Common. I would imagine, with a positive INT modifier, that nightmares also speak either Abyssal or Infernal. As far as an ally, the yeth hound looks like a clear superior to the others, with the shadow mastiff and the nightmare roughly a wash, although with a flight-granting item, the shadow mastiff pulls ahead.
TelinArtho 12-10-07, 03:32 PM	Here's how I am doing my analysis for the allies. Nightmare: High AC, good attack values (3 attacks/round), supernatural flight (usable in the sewer), total concealment at range (can't be easily targetted until in melee), ability to go ethereal (helpful vs ghosts and such) Yeth Hound: Nice DR (but easy to overcome), 1 attack that deals a good amount of damage, trip ability, supernatural flight. Shadow Mastiff: 1 attack that deals a good amount of damage, trip ability, total concealment (except when high noon lighting...) Xill: Good attacks per round, ability to go ethereal. From the above - the nightmare ends up as the clear winner. The effectiveness of the single attacks from either the shadow mastiff or the yeth hound is nice, but the nightmare has a lot of options to offer and is really the superset of all the others with the exception of the trip ability (which, while nice, is certainly not necessary).
McJarvis 12-10-07, 03:36 PM	When I get a thrallmount, I'm going to end up with a nightmare as well, telin. It's just a solid choice. [and I'm not required to pick an outsider, even ;) ]
lonewolf 12-10-07, 04:40 PM	A familiar/Psicrystal has half the masters hp. If the masters maximum hp change temporarily through CON change(Animal Affinity/Metamorphosis) does the the familiars/psicrystals hp change?
templer10 12-10-07, 04:46 PM	A familiar/Psicrystal has half the masters hp. If the masters maximum hp change temporarily through CON change(Animal Affinity/Metamorphosis) does the the familiars/psicrystals hp change? My opinion - and i am biased about it (since this is my guy we are talking about) is yes from one simple reason - assume said psion has an amulet of health +2 - It increases that psion HP by his HD - in this case by 9 HP. Since he has 9 more HP his psicrystal has 4 more HP. Since that is true for an amulet of health - there is no reason why it won't be true for animal affinity (which is essentially the same thing) or metamorphosis that changes Con.
TelinArtho 12-10-07, 04:49 PM	A familiar/Psicrystal has half the masters hp. If the masters maximum hp change temporarily through CON change(Animal Affinity/Metamorphosis) does the the familiars/psicrystals hp change? Yes.
TelinArtho 12-10-07, 05:01 PM	Hmm - how do bloodlines work out with creatures with racial HD. For instance, let's picture a Nightmare with the Major Red Dragon Bloodline: Base Nightmare: 6HD, +4 LA - ECL10 Major Bloodline requires levels at 3, 6, and 12. Would I effectively need to start it at ECL12 to include the bloodline levels at 3 and 6 HD?
lonewolf 12-10-07, 05:17 PM	just to be sure since I think this has been done wrong before: You cannot manifest Energy Current on a single creature, can you? And what happens if one of the targets dies and there is no alternative target nearby?
templer10 12-10-07, 05:33 PM	Why shouldnt you be able to use it on just 1 target? granted -if you want to you can target 2 enemies but this isnt the case in which the power say you need the second enemy to be around for the power to work- it just say that it can target a secondery target if it's in range (or goes into range). (the wording its the energy ALSO arcs off...) i would say that since the power doesnt say it stops working for the primary target if the secondary target moves beyond the powers range also support that it doesnt need it for it to work.
lonewolf 12-10-07, 05:39 PM	The power has Target: Any two creatures no more than 15 ft. apart note the difference to Energy Missile: Targets: Up to five creatures or objects; no two targets can be more than 15 ft. apart. I would interpret this as having additional targets is optional for energy missile but not for energy current. Can any Elder comment on this please? EDIT: reading it more carefully, it seems that the "Target line" and the power description directly contradict each other. Another reason why an Elder opinion is needed.
hogarth 12-10-07, 06:11 PM	Hmm - how do bloodlines work out with creatures with racial HD. For instance, let's picture a Nightmare with the Major Red Dragon Bloodline: Base Nightmare: 6HD, +4 LA - ECL10 Major Bloodline requires levels at 3, 6, and 12. Would I effectively need to start it at ECL12 to include the bloodline levels at 3 and 6 HD? Yes, it would have 6 HD, two bloodlines levels and +4 LA at a minimum.
whitebaron 12-10-07, 06:15 PM	that's difficult. but as the wording implies that there must not be a secondary target (it can move in later) i'd say the target line is off. or the wording of the whole power, at that - but i'd just assume the wording is what was wanted, therefore: single target should be allowed. also, note that the energy current randomly determines the secondary target. so if it is to close to the caster, even he might be a secondary target. ah, and btw, on the bloodlines: i don't think you should be allowed to add bloodlines to a nightmare. bloodline effects are dependent on CL, and a nightmare has none and no advancement where it could get one.
TelinArtho 12-10-07, 06:19 PM	The power has note the difference to Energy Missile: I would interpret this as having additional targets is optional for energy missile but not for energy current. Can any Elder comment on this please? EDIT: reading it more carefully, it seems that the "Target line" and the power description directly contradict each other. Another reason why an Elder opinion is needed. This came up in Kraegin's fight against Longshot in August. Albeit, there wasn't much discussion, but here's what there was (Erithmu was the pitlord): [Post 1368] Author : Erithmu Date : 08-17-07 02:07 PM Thread Title : Re: Core Coliseum Tavern (X) Ok ... a quick reading here ... Does Energy Current 'require' two initial targets, or can you only have one target. I can see the reading both ways but I'm leaning towards needing two targets mostly due to the 'targets' entry in the SRD. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1370] Author : Sjiggie Date : 08-17-07 02:15 PM Thread Title : Re: Core Coliseum Tavern (X) Ok ... a quick reading here ... Does Energy Current 'require' two initial targets, or can you only have one target. I can see the reading both ways but I'm leaning towards needing two targets mostly due to the 'targets' entry in the SRD. I think it can be manifested on only 1 target because of this sentence in the disciption Energy also arcs off the primary foe to strike one additional foe that is initially within 15 feet of the primary foe, or that subsequently moves within 15 feet of the primary foe while the duration lasts So the current doesn't need to have 2 targets but can strike at two targets. Sjiggie -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1371] Author : TelinArtho Date : 08-17-07 02:55 PM Thread Title : Re: Core Coliseum Tavern (X) @Rith - I would tend to agree that it doesn't need a secondary target, but that it is an option. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1372] Author : Erithmu Date : 08-17-07 03:07 PM Thread Title : Re: Core Coliseum Tavern (X) One Energy Current to Kraegin then ... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- I stand by my initial interpretation (in case you need me to specifically say so). I agree that the entry is somewhat contradictory though.
MindWandererB 12-10-07, 08:49 PM	Okay - another bump. Just want to resolve this sooner rather than later, since planning for a planar ally does take some preparation...Looking at the Thaumaturgist, language doesn't seem to be an issue. You speak the universal language of money: a flat amount, for which no negotiation is necessary or possible.I stand by my initial interpretation (in case you need me to specifically say so). I agree that the entry is somewhat contradictory though.I agree, too. The bit about "subsequently" moving in range suggests that you can have only one target to begin with.
big_baloo 12-11-07, 06:53 AM	Ok, I have a few questions. What stats would a guard dog use? The same as those of a riding dog? I cannot find an entry in the SRD, even though there is one listed under Equipment-Goods and Services. Also, what tricks, if any, would a guard dog know? And lastly, I plan to use the dog for combat rather than riding, but would a riding dog be a better choice than a guard dog? Also, if I wanted to tame a Worg, what would be the total requirements to do so?
hogarth 12-11-07, 07:04 AM	Ok, I have a few questions. What stats would a guard dog use? The same as those of a riding dog? I cannot find an entry in the SRD, even though there is one listed under Equipment-Goods and Services. Also, what tricks, if any, would a guard dog know? And lastly, I plan to use the dog for combat rather than riding, but would a riding dog be a better choice than a guard dog? The guard dog uses the regular (small) dog statistics; if you want a riding dog, you need to buy a riding dog. However, you should note that the CoCo has strict house rules on what animals you are allowed to bring with you at each level. For instance, at level 3 you can bring along a light horse, a pony, a donkey or a dog, but a riding dog requires you to be level 4 at least. See here: http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=6466763 The section labeled "Minimum ECL Requirements".
big_baloo 12-11-07, 07:16 AM	Right, I saw that, I just wasn't sure what stats the guard dog used. So that basically answers question 3, making question 2 obsolete. However, I think I'll wait to get an answer to my question about worgs to decide what I really want to do, hehe.
lonewolf 12-11-07, 07:21 AM	Also, if I wanted to tame a Worg, what would be the total requirements to do so? Worgs can only be aquired as allies with the Leadership Feat.
Salrantol 12-11-07, 07:26 AM	Worgs can only be aquired as allies with the Leadership Feat.And with their 4HD and +1LA, that means you can't get one until ECL 7.
lonewolf 12-11-07, 07:27 AM	The prospect of having a possible Pixie vs ghost fight in the ECL6 league made me seriously consider dropping pitlording this week for a second...
big_baloo 12-11-07, 07:36 AM	Worgs can only be aquired as allies with the Leadership Feat. And with their 4HD and +1LA, that means you can't get one until ECL 7. Ok, thanks guys.
templer10 12-11-07, 08:18 AM	The prospect of having a possible Pixie vs ghost fight in the ECL6 league made me seriously consider dropping pitlording this week for a second... that's...... just..... BAD. on another note - longshot is looking for victims in the ECL 11 league to do inter league against - need to finish his 3FC before i put him to rest until more peeps level up. p.s. if anyone want some kind of challange match Ill be taking all comers - and i do mean ALL comers - bring on the ad hoc parties from ECL 5 for all i care...
McJarvis 12-11-07, 08:42 AM	The prospect of having a possible Pixie vs ghost fight in the ECL6 league made me seriously consider dropping pitlording this week for a second... shouldn't be too bad- at least one of them has see invis
hogarth 12-11-07, 09:48 AM	on another note - longshot is looking for victims in the ECL 11 league to do inter league against - need to finish his 3FC before i put him to rest until more peeps level up. Hmm...if I had the time and energy to fix her up, I'd take a crack with Kilpquabjeg. The strategy would probably involve Etherealness + Dust of Sneezing and Choking with Ego Whips for dessert. :)
templer10 12-11-07, 10:07 AM	Etherealness + Dust of Sneezing and Choking with Ego Whips for dessert. :) Lol - how's that cheese smell?
Erithmu 12-11-07, 10:14 AM	Lol - how's that cheese smell?It smells about the same as the smell of victory ...
hogarth 12-11-07, 10:15 AM	Lol - how's that cheese smell? Are you saying that Dust of Sneezing & Choking + Ego Whip lacks the solemn, quiet dignity of Vigor/Share Pain + Energy Missile + Leadership? The devil you say!
TelinArtho 12-11-07, 10:22 AM	Tempting lonewolf. Now that your dispels are not automatic, it is tempting. That said, Kraegin has a few weeks of crafting before he can be active again - so he's out anyway...
templer10 12-11-07, 10:22 AM	Are you saying that Dust of Sneezing & Choking + Ego Whip lacks the solemn, quiet dignity of Vigor/Share Pain + Energy Missile + Leadership? The devil you say! err.... dont forget metamorphasis brokeness on the cohort. on another yet similar note - since we never had to deal with it - i want to get a clear answer on this. the power - reddopsi - What are "powers that produce effects that can't be reveresd"?
templer10 12-11-07, 10:24 AM	Tempting lonewolf. Now that your dispels are not automatic, it is tempting. That said, Kraegin has a few weeks of crafting before he can be active again - so he's out anyway... iam not lonewolf - but you get yourself ready and a partner Ill probably be done with this 3FC by then and have new gear 2. p.s - was that spend credits to shorten craftign tiem ever decideds (asking since i saw Rith's post in the blackmarket).
TelinArtho 12-11-07, 10:33 AM	Heh - whoops. In any case, he might be out for more than 3 weeks of crafting anyway (because of real life...) - but I'll see. Not sure on the spending credits thing - but it seemed like a good idea to me anyway - so it didn't raise any red flags :).
Hirumajoe 12-11-07, 10:51 AM	that's...... just..... BAD. on another note - longshot is looking for victims in the ECL 11 league to do inter league against - need to finish his 3FC before i put him to rest until more peeps level up. p.s. if anyone want some kind of challange match Ill be taking all comers - and i do mean ALL comers - bring on the ad hoc parties from ECL 5 for all i care... If I weren't checking this site in the break between presentations and actually had time this week, I'd offer to challenge you with just Valen. Your choice of map and lighting, if I can choose to be attacker. :devil: I figure between 3 pre-buff rounds and 2 surprise rounds (for being a lower level), Valen should be able to pull it off.
templer10 12-11-07, 11:09 AM	If I weren't checking this site in the break between presentations and actually had time this week, I'd offer to challenge you with just Valen. Your choice of map and lighting, if I can choose to be attacker. :devil: I figure between 3 pre-buff rounds and 2 surprise rounds (for being a lower level), Valen should be able to pull it off. Ill take that challange if you want - this week or the following week (probably). Ill even give you all those rounds free, not sure if you have that skill package but no picking of start squere. you might actually be suprised at my choice of map & lightening.
Taureus_Drakken 12-11-07, 02:49 PM	rounds 1-14 of the playtest are up. we should get rid of any single-movers or very slow creatures for the monster hunt. it's plain boring. @vath: well, it were zombies - no subdual damage, no mind-affecting. @lonewolf+taureus: it's 2d6+2 (avg: 9) vs 1d10+4(avg:9.5), both of you need a 6 to hit, and darian is up 2-1 and out of pp. do you want me to continue? Sorry for taking so long to get back on this. It doesn't matter one way or another to me. He can only go so long with the limited amount of PP he has. I have no problem continuing until I fall, Darian might end up regretting his decision to off Remnant, but who knows. Keep going is what I say. ~Taureus~
lonewolf 12-11-07, 02:56 PM	I also dont really see a reason why to stop at this point. But those Zombies are probably not the ideal choice for the playtest because they are so extremely slow. The sewer helped, but that wasnt enoughto corner us.
Hirumajoe 12-11-07, 04:10 PM	Ill take that challange if you want - this week or the following week (probably). Ill even give you all those rounds free, not sure if you have that skill package but no picking of start squere. you might actually be suprised at my choice of map & lightening. Hmm... Not much point in being the attacker if I can't actually use the attacker packages. (And yes, Valen has the packages and could use them on Longshot, to gain 2 Prebuff rounds (his Scouting Package) and also choose both our starting squares along with a sneak attack round (his Ambush package).) I mean, if I'm not allowed to use my full abilities given the circumstances, is there something you're offering not to use? Otherwise, I guess I'll decline (and simply wait until I hit ECL 13. Let the dice decide in that case) :) ).
templer10 12-11-07, 04:30 PM	Hmm... Not much point in being the attacker if I can't actually use the attacker packages. (And yes, Valen has the packages and could use them on Longshot, to gain 2 Prebuff rounds (his Scouting Package) and also choose both our starting squares along with a sneak attack round (his Ambush package).) I mean, if I'm not allowed to use my full abilities given the circumstances, is there something you're offering not to use? Otherwise, I guess I'll decline (and simply wait until I hit ECL 13. Let the dice decide in that case) :) ). i just meant no picking of start squeres you will still get the surprise rounds, and no i wasnt offering anything else althrough iam willing to listen. With you as an attacker you already have a huge advantage in that if you guess the right start squere and D.door there i already have to save vs that eversmoking bottle once or twice. I actually think i might have a better chance against valen when he is ECL 13 - less rounds for you to use that bottle on longshot And ill be buying a ressistence item by then i think. p.s - that bottle - smart buy - without it i dont think valen can win - even as an attacker - you will need to win Init and roll high on the dmg to knock off all my HP before i can act. EDIT - thinking about that bottle again - Can you decide to just not breath in the smoke and hold your breath? after all you can hold breath normaly for 2 rounds per point of constitution before having to roll Fort checks - so is there anything preventing someone from just doing that?
MindWandererB 12-11-07, 04:53 PM	I also dont really see a reason why to stop at this point. But those Zombies are probably not the ideal choice for the playtest because they are so extremely slow. The sewer helped, but that wasnt enoughto corner us. Agreed on the latter. There should probably be a bit in the rules about rerolling what would qualify as "auto-win" situations if it were a normal monster fight. However, since this is only a playtest, with no rewards, I'm not sure there's any point in continuing. We've learned as much as we're going to from this run. Is there anything we need to bear in mind other than no slow/auto-win monsters?
lonewolf 12-11-07, 04:58 PM	I would say that spellcasters without offensive wands/dorjes have serious problems in a monster fight, since you have to be able to deal with more enemies than usually. Especially casters specialized on save/die spells will have a problem. Dunno if this can/should be changed, but its an observation from me.
Hirumajoe 12-11-07, 05:17 PM	@Templer10: You're afraid of the smoking bottle? You really aren't looking at Valen closely... How about this, I leave the bottle at home, and Valen at ECL 12 with attacker packages on your map of choice and lighting comes calling. I also think the bottle was a smart buy. In regards to holding your breath in smoke, you can. *But* I don't believe you can do so while flat-footed (or at least you can't start holding your breath). As far as I know, its a free action, but most free actions you can only take on your turn. Although, once you are in smoke cloud, I have no clue if you can effectively take a good breath to hold. Certainly if you need to speak (such as most spellcasters as opposed to manifesters) you can't be holding your breath at the same time. In regards to damage, you may not be realizing Valen can do something like 31.5 average damage per hit, along with a 1d20+13 targeted dispel with each hit. Lastly, with 2 sneak attack rounds, he can simply delay on one sneak attack round until the next round to ensure he goes first on the full round. Still, it does come down to the dice. If he rolls like he did in the last fight for his full attack (something like a 1, 2, 4, 1) he's still probably going to lose. :)
whitebaron 12-11-07, 06:29 PM	Agreed on the latter. There should probably be a bit in the rules about rerolling what would qualify as "auto-win" situations if it were a normal monster fight. However, since this is only a playtest, with no rewards, I'm not sure there's any point in continuing. We've learned as much as we're going to from this run. Is there anything we need to bear in mind other than no slow/auto-win monsters? no slow monsters would be very good, and basically i'd go for brutes that can dish out damage. but i have to add that this kind of fight was 100% no fun for the pitlord. with tactics as they were, it was just "deal damage to the monster you find and keep away if possible" + "use my most expensive wand, as i won't have to pay the charges" - how will this be dealt with later? next thing: about credits/fights. i am still missing one fight in the official list, maybe the one i picked up needle/durzulgor. and i believe, the credit for it is also missing. see my pitlording-profile for all my fights. - it's 35.
big_baloo 12-11-07, 07:22 PM	Are you allowed to do more than 1 free activity per fight, ie. use Sleight of Hands to earn money and use Intimidate against an opponent's ally?
whitebaron 12-11-07, 07:25 PM	Are you allowed to do more than 1 free activity per fight, ie. use Sleight of Hands to earn money and use Intimidate against an opponent's ally? nope, just one, else it would be to abusable. e.g. craft each fight an item worth 1000 for 500, sell one of those items via sell item package, earn money with 15 different professions, perform, sleight, craft.
big_baloo 12-11-07, 07:51 PM	nope, just one, else it would be to abusable. e.g. craft each fight an item worth 1000 for 500, sell one of those items via sell item package, earn money with 15 different professions, perform, sleight, craft. Hmm. Ok, if I successfully used Intimidate and ended up making the ally not show up to the fight, I would receive normal rewards for a victory, correct? Not increased rewards, since the ally didn't show up?
lonewolf 12-11-07, 07:55 PM	Hmm. Ok, if I successfully used Intimidate and ended up making the ally not show up to the fight, I would receive normal rewards for a victory, correct? Not increased rewards, since the ally didn't show up? You would recieve increased rewards, which is really nice. On the other hand you get nothing if the other guy didnt have allies in the first place, so it balances quite well.
MindWandererB 12-11-07, 08:02 PM	no slow monsters would be very good, and basically i'd go for brutes that can dish out damage. but i have to add that this kind of fight was 100% no fun for the pitlord. with tactics as they were, it was just "deal damage to the monster you find and keep away if possible" + "use my most expensive wand, as i won't have to pay the charges" - how will this be dealt with later? next thing: about credits/fights. i am still missing one fight in the official list, maybe the one i picked up needle/durzulgor. and i believe, the credit for it is also missing. see my pitlording-profile for all my fights. - it's 35. Missing fight is fixed. Frozen fights and expendables has always been a problem. We may have to come up with some sort of limitation, especially on wand charges. Perhaps an ECL-based gp limit (1 wand charge = CL * SL * 15 gp). Higher-ECL fights with faster and more dangerous opponents should yield more interesting tactics.
big_baloo 12-11-07, 08:03 PM	Yea it does. I could earn money when there's no allies to worry about, and then hope that I can scare them off when someone does bring an ally. Cool. Thanks everyone.
lonewolf 12-11-07, 08:04 PM	Yea it does. I could earn money when there's no allies to worry about, and then hope that I can scare them off when someone does bring an ally. Cool. Thanks everyone. well, the thing is you´ve got to choose which free activity you want to use BEFORE you know what enemy you are facing. So spending skillpoints in both skills might not be such a good idea.
big_baloo 12-11-07, 08:19 PM	Ah, true. Thanks for reminding me.
templer10 12-12-07, 02:19 AM	@Templer10: You're afraid of the smoking bottle? You really aren't looking at Valen closely... How about this, I leave the bottle at home, and Valen at ECL 12 with attacker packages on your map of choice and lighting comes calling. I also think the bottle was a smart buy. In regards to holding your breath in smoke, you can. *But* I don't believe you can do so while flat-footed (or at least you can't start holding your breath). As far as I know, its a free action, but most free actions you can only take on your turn. Although, once you are in smoke cloud, I have no clue if you can effectively take a good breath to hold. Certainly if you need to speak (such as most spellcasters as opposed to manifesters) you can't be holding your breath at the same time. In regards to damage, you may not be realizing Valen can do something like 31.5 average damage per hit, along with a 1d20+13 targeted dispel with each hit. Lastly, with 2 sneak attack rounds, he can simply delay on one sneak attack round until the next round to ensure he goes first on the full round. Still, it does come down to the dice. If he rolls like he did in the last fight for his full attack (something like a 1, 2, 4, 1) he's still probably going to lose. :) I must be missing something - how can you do 31.5 avrage dmg per hit?
Salrantol 12-12-07, 08:20 AM	I must be missing something - how can you do 31.5 avrage dmg per hit?It's actually better than that. 7pp Expansion 7pp Offensive Prescience 14 - 4d6 Huge greatsword 9 - STR 22 (+6) x 1.5 two-handed 4 - favored enemy 1 - +1 greatsword 4 - Offensive Prescience --- 32
McJarvis 12-12-07, 08:31 AM	It's actually better than that. 7pp Expansion 7pp Offensive Prescience 14 - 4d6 Huge greatsword 9 - STR 22 (+6) x 1.5 two-handed 4 - favored enemy 1 - +1 greatsword 4 - Offensive Prescience --- 32 proving that you can beat someone in the tavarn thread rather than actual combat: damage-less. ;)
Salrantol 12-12-07, 08:34 AM	proving that you can beat someone in the tavarn thread rather than actual combat: damage-less. ;)Note: Not my character I was referring to. So the only beating I was doing was proving I was better at figuring out how much damage a character can do from their character sheet than templer10 is. :P
lonewolf 12-12-07, 08:36 AM	I would assume that Hirumajoe calculated with metamorphosis.
McJarvis 12-12-07, 08:41 AM	Note: Not my character I was referring to. So the only beating I was doing was proving I was better at figuring out how much damage a character can do from their character sheet than templer10 is. :P I was just treating you as an extension of hirm ;)
mucki 12-12-07, 09:03 AM	Quick question about crafting large (or other sized) weapons: Does the special material price get multiplied as well as the weapon base price ? As example: Does a large adamatine guisarme cost 3018 gp or 6018 gp ?
hogarth 12-12-07, 09:03 AM	I would assume that Hirumajoe calculated with metamorphosis. Personally, I'd go with Metamorphosis into a phthisic. The strength isn't as good as an annis hag, but shaving off a few points of intelligence is always good for a chuckle. :)
templer10 12-12-07, 09:13 AM	I would assume that Hirumajoe calculated with metamorphosis. so do i - which means his damage is somewhat more limited since he cant always be large and he can almost never be huge, rather depndend on the map and wheter or not he needs to fly. Althrough - pretty good for melee damage, Not krackol gazzilion dmg per hit dive attacks but good. Hirumajoe - if you want by the terms offered earlier - i.e. - leave the bottle at home and Ill choose map/lightening and you get attacker and all the trimmings iam game- i can do with a Loss. if someone will be nice enough to pitlord it on a seperate thread it would be even nicer.
templer10 12-12-07, 09:14 AM	Personally, I'd go with Metamorphosis into a phthisic. The strength isn't as good as an annis hag, but shaving off a few points of intelligence is always good for a chuckle. :) a what? (cant find in the SRD - might be blind).
McJarvis 12-12-07, 09:15 AM	a what? (cant find in the SRD - might be blind). psionic section. it's an (ex) attack that does some minor int damage[forget how much]
Hirumajoe 12-12-07, 09:45 AM	@Templer10: I guess I can take those terms, although not this week. It'll have to be next week. I have on average about 10 minutes a day to actually browse the internet for fun this week. @McJarvis: Oh, I admit its all theoretical and really meaningless speculation. As noted, it all comes down to the dice and actually rolling higher than 1s. :) But, in the case of 3 pre-buff rounds and 2 surprise rounds, there is a high probability (certainly not 100% because of attack rolls) that things will go down as I expect before my opponent acts, since only his pre-buffs can have any effect at that point. Assuming I read carefully, these should be able to be accounted for. In principle, I can give you a complete probability of victory before my opponent gets to act. @All: I was using the Annis Hag strength in my damage assumptions: 3d6 = 10.5 avg +9 x1.5 = +13 damage +4 offensive prescience +4 Favored enemy = 31.5 average I completely forgot the +1 enhancement bonus though. :) Interestingly, Valen's single round bow damage within 30' is actually higher, but I leave that as an exercise for the reader. Edit: (Ignoring the effects of to-hit, which admittedly shouldn't be ignored, but I'm being lazy at the moment...) Edit: Dumb question, Can you use the delay action during pre-buff rounds? I know you pretty much can do anything that doesn't involve leaving your starting area or interacting with your opponent, but I'm curious as to special initiative actions. Also, is a character who had pre-buff rounds considered flat footed when the 1st round finally comes around (or if someone ambushes them and gets a surprise round?)
TelinArtho 12-12-07, 09:51 AM	Quick question about crafting large (or other sized) weapons: Does the special material price get multiplied as well as the weapon base price ? As example: Does a large adamatine guisarme cost 3018 gp or 6018 gp ? Yes, kind of. It doubles the non-masterwork portion of the special material if the special material has the masterwork already in it: Large Cold Iron Guisarme (9gp (base) + 9gp (cold iron))*2 (large) = 36gp Large Adamantine Guisarme (9gp (base) + (3000-300) (adamantine less the [Ma] component))*2 (large) + 300 ([Ma] Component) = 5718gp. Convoluted - but that's the way it is. This is handled in the FAQ if you want to see it.
templer10 12-12-07, 10:03 AM	Edit: Dumb question, Can you use the delay action during pre-buff rounds? I know you pretty much can do anything that doesn't involve leaving your starting area or interacting with your opponent, but I'm curious as to special initiative actions. Also, is a character who had pre-buff rounds considered flat footed when the 1st round final comes around (or if someone ambushes them and gets a surprise round?) i would say no - Delay depnds on initiative to work at all - you dont roll initiative before the end of the prebuff/suprise rounds so you cant use them to delay. p.s - you do remmber that you need to actually get to me before you can start hacking at me and D.door isnt possible at a prebuff round.
McJarvis 12-12-07, 10:17 AM	i would say no - Delay depnds on initiative to work at all - you dont roll initiative before the end of the prebuff/suprise rounds so you cant use them to delay. p.s - you do remmber that you need to actually get to me before you can start hacking at me and D.door isnt possible at a prebuff round. It is as a surprise round.
templer10 12-12-07, 10:19 AM	It is as a surprise round. I know - but it cuts down on the numbers of active rounds he has to dmg me before we roll Init and if he already metamorphed to something big and strong he isnt likely to have a lot of dex when he rolls that Init.
mucki 12-12-07, 10:22 AM	Yes, kind of. It doubles the non-masterwork portion of the special material if the special material has the masterwork already in it: Large Cold Iron Guisarme (9gp (base) + 9gp (cold iron))*2 (large) = 36gp Large Adamantine Guisarme (9gp (base) + (3000-300) (adamantine less the [Ma] component))*2 (large) + 300 ([Ma] Component) = 5718gp. Convoluted - but that's the way it is. This is handled in the FAQ if you want to see it. thx for the info.
McJarvis 12-12-07, 10:23 AM	I know - but it cuts down on the numbers of active rounds he has to dmg me before we roll Init and if he already metamorphed to something big and strong he isnt likely to have a lot of dex when he rolls that Init. I'm not sure that 1 attack will make a difference- but no matter. During surprise rounds he can only hit once anyway. I'm betting it'll come down to who wins init.
Hirumajoe 12-12-07, 01:09 PM	I envision the fight occuring as follows: Pre-buff 1: Offensive Prescience (+4 dmg) (7pp) Pre-buff 2: Metamorphosis (Annis Hag) (7pp) Pre-buff 3: Hmm... Break Dance! (1d20+4, perform (dance) skill) :D Surprise Round 1: Dimension Door (7pp) Surprise Round 2: Delay until top of the order in 1st real round Round 1: With new initiative go first. Swing 3 times, missing 5% of the time, and criting 9.5% of the time, dealing on average 32.5 damage per hit. Have 50/50 odds of dispelling the share pain on each hit, before damage is applied. I need to dispel it on the second hit to average over 70 damage to Longshot himself. Interestingly, this only works out to something like a 65% chance of victory before Longshot's first action. But considering the weaker character is making a concession to the stronger character (still don't quite understand why...) I guess I'll take those odds. Other nice thing about it is it uses no expendables what so ever. However, once Longshot gets his first action, its pretty much over, as he dimension doors away and proceeds to dispel magic and energy ball me into oblivion on a brightly lit map with over 100 spare pps. And a minion. At ECL 13, I get a backup strategy. Hiding and sniping. At ECL 14, I get evasion and probably buy some Cold Resistance on my armor reducing the dangers of AoE spells. But at ECL 12, I pretty much just die after the initial round. :)
templer10 12-12-07, 01:20 PM	I envision the fight occuring as follows: Pre-buff 1: Offensive Prescience (+4 dmg) (7pp) Pre-buff 2: Metamorphosis (Annis Hag) (7pp) Pre-buff 3: Hmm... Break Dance! (1d20+4, perform (dance) skill) :D Surprise Round 1: Dimension Door (7pp) Surprise Round 2: Delay until top of the order in 1st real round Round 1: With new initiative go first. Swing 3 times, missing 5% of the time, and criting 9.5% of the time, dealing on average 32.5 damage per hit. Have 50/50 odds of dispelling the share pain on each hit, before damage is applied. I need to dispel it on the second hit to average over 70 damage to Longshot himself. Interestingly, this only works out to something like a 65% chance of victory before Longshot's first action. But considering the weaker character is making a concession to the stronger character (still don't quite understand why...) I guess I'll take those odds. Other nice thing about it is it uses no expendables what so ever. However, once Longshot gets his first action, its pretty much over, as he dimension doors away and proceeds to dispel magic and energy ball me into oblivion on a brightly lit map with over 100 spare pps. And a minion. At ECL 13, I get a backup strategy. Hiding and sniping. At ECL 14, I get evasion and probably buy some Cold Resistance on my armor reducing the dangers of AoE spells. But at ECL 12, I pretty much just die after the initial round. :) All pretty much true exept i really don't think you can delay during a suprise round since it's done before initiative is rolled.
Hirumajoe 12-12-07, 01:27 PM	All pretty much true exept i really don't think you can delay during a suprise round since it's done before initiative is rolled. Initiative has to be rolled during a surprise round, because you might have multiple characters acting during such a round. At which point you need to know who goes first. Someone *not* acting in a surprise round I suppose might not roll yet, but I can always choose to delay to initiative 100 on the next round. :)
McJarvis 12-12-07, 01:31 PM	somehow this reminds me of that star trek episode where the computers resolved a war in VR and told the people which ones of them had to die.
TelinArtho 12-12-07, 01:44 PM	Initiative has to be rolled during a surprise round, because you might have multiple characters acting during such a round. At which point you need to know who goes first. Someone *not* acting in a surprise round I suppose might not roll yet, but I can always choose to delay to initiative 100 on the next round. :) I would say that this is not an option actually. You could ready (which is a standard action) to act at a point in time before the rest acts (which is less beneficial than just taking your surprise action and then hoping to get a good initiative in the regular order. Delay is not a standard action (it is a "no action"). A surprise round allows each participant in the surprise round to take a standard action and free actions. A surprise round does have initiative rolled, but unless you can convince me that delay is a standard action (which it isn't) or that "no action" actions can be taken during a surprise round (which is debatable at best) - I'd say that this isn't possible.
McJarvis 12-12-07, 01:49 PM	I would say that this is not an option actually. You could ready (which is a standard action) to act at a point in time before the rest acts (which is less beneficial than just taking your surprise action and then hoping to get a good initiative in the regular order. Delay is not a standard action (it is a "no action"). A surprise round allows each participant in the surprise round to take a standard action and free actions. A surprise round does have initiative rolled, but unless you can convince me that delay is a standard action (which it isn't) or that "no action" actions can be taken during a surprise round (which is debatable at best) - I'd say that this isn't possible. Note that it's debatable on whether the rules even support the use of "two" surprise rounds. The rules on surprise rounds specifically say there is just "the" surprise round[there's no such thing as being extra surprised] srd quote- The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. Any combatants aware of the opponents can act in the surprise round, so they roll for initiative. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs. Of course, we're dealing with house-rules that go outside the "normal" encounter scope of D&D- so whatever. :)
Hirumajoe 12-12-07, 02:36 PM	I would say that this is not an option actually. You could ready (which is a standard action) to act at a point in time before the rest acts (which is less beneficial than just taking your surprise action and then hoping to get a good initiative in the regular order. Delay is not a standard action (it is a "no action"). A surprise round allows each participant in the surprise round to take a standard action and free actions. A surprise round does have initiative rolled, but unless you can convince me that delay is a standard action (which it isn't) or that "no action" actions can be taken during a surprise round (which is debatable at best) - I'd say that this isn't possible. Delay: Delay is a nonaction. That is, it doesn't use up any of your time in a round. When delaying, you can specify a point in a round when you want to act (for example, right after a particular ally acts, or any other point you can manage to specify). Or you can simply wait until the time seems right and take your turn. What I'm confused about is you'd allow free actions which take some negligible amount of time versus a non-action which takes *no* time. Would you allow Attacks of Opportunity during the surprise round? They're clearly not a standard action or a free action. Someone with combat reflexes can in pirnciple take them while flat footed. How about use-activated magic items, like a flaming sword? Thats not an action as well. Although, now that McJarvis brings it up, I'm not sure I'd actually get two surprise rounds... Not really sure how thats supposed to work. ---------- I am amused by McJarvis' comparison to that Star Trek episode. I remember that one as well. But, this discussion is about as meaningful as the "real" fight when you get down to it. Its for entertainment. :) And I'm not even saying "Valen *will* win". I'm mostly discussing the odds of the first 10 or so d20 rolls and stating the odds. Which are really only 2 to 1. I do admit, this kind of fight is much less interesting than the ECL 3 to 10-ish ECLs. Since its basically "Does my combo beat your full caster?" But it is slightly more interesting than simply surrendering to a full caster. A counter point to "Casters always win at high level" if you will. There's also nothing preventing a sneak attack rogue at these ECLs from picking up these packages and investing in a Cape of the Montebank. +6d6 Sneak attack damage two to four times has to be worth something, no? So its also a show case of the Attack/Defend packages. One the bright side, there won't be any rules questions left to ponder over for the pitlord. He can just come to the tavern and cut and paste into the fight, and roll a couple d20s. :)
TelinArtho 12-12-07, 03:03 PM	The difference is in specification: The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. Any combatants aware of the opponents can act in the surprise round, so they roll for initiative. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs. Unaware Combatants: Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don’t get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC. Here we see that people who can act in a surprise round can take a single standard action and free actions. As to the question about being able to take an AoO during a surprise round, there's very clear language about it: A flat-footed character can’t make attacks of opportunity. If you have not acted yet (even if you can act during the surprise round), you simply cannot take an AoO. Having combat reflexes does not remove this condition. Now that I've given it some more thought though, I'm starting to think I'm wrong about not allowing the delay. I am going to say it wouldn't work the way you think though... Imagine this scenario: Character A acts on Initiative 1 Character B acts on Initiative 20 Round 1: Character B does something Character A uses a standard action to attack and delays as a non-action until Initiative 21. Round 2: Character A uses a full attack action. Character B does something. Can Character A delay a move action until before his initiative count on the following round in order to get a full round worth of action? No. Can a character delay a standard action until before his initiative count on the following round in order to get a full round worth of action? No. Therefore, can a character delay a surprise round until before his initiative count on the following round in order to get a full round worth of action? No. If his initiative is already higher than his opponent's (as in - he won initiative) - he certainly could do it - but he would end up losing the standard action of the surprise round.
McJarvis 12-12-07, 03:10 PM	If you have not acted yet (even if you can act during the surprise round), you simply cannot take an AoO. Having combat reflexes does not remove this condition. Wait- why not? Combat reflexes specifically says you can take AoO's while flat footed. Benefit: You may make a number of additional attacks of opportunity equal to your Dexterity bonus. With this feat, you may also make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed. Otherwise I think telin hit the nail on the head- you can't create actions by delaying. So in the following case- Me- 20 Opponent-1 I couldn't single-move, then delay a standard action to 19, then move & delay an action to 18, then move & delay an action to.... You get the idea.
TelinArtho 12-12-07, 03:23 PM	Heh - that's what I get for not opening up the feat specifically...
The Dread Dormammu 12-12-07, 03:57 PM	I was wondering if Snaga could go on a quest for The Arcane Order. Perhaps a 2 person quest with a fighter that he can "Magic Up?" Perhaps to Kill some Bandits?
Hirumajoe 12-12-07, 06:13 PM	If his initiative is already higher than his opponent's (as in - he won initiative) - he certainly could do it - but he would end up losing the standard action of the surprise round. Thats all I want. :) I just want to trade my surprise round action (delay it away) for the first full-round action in round 1. I note that because of the nature of the delay action, that if it works if you won initiative in the surprise round, it works if you lose initiative in the surprise round. As you delay your initiative count is *constantly changing*. Until you finally lose the action that you used to delay, and you start with a fresh round. I.e. I have initiative 20, you have initiative 10. I delay to the next round, I've passed through all initiatives in between, including 9 and less. Therefore, if you start with inititiative 10 and I start with initiative 9 or less, I delay in the exactly the same way. It can't depend on whether you've won initiative or not. I also note your examples don't work because of the "you take no action" clause of the delay action. A similar situation to consider might be if you're under the effects of a slow spell. Say it has a duration of 1 round. You delay your action until the effects would wear off. Do you get A) a standard action or move action only or B) a full-round action?
MindWandererB 12-12-07, 07:06 PM	I'd say A. You're voluntarily taking your action (i.e. your standard or move action) later. You can't just wait until the surprise round turns into a normal round and then take a full round's worth of actions.
big_baloo 12-13-07, 04:30 AM	Drat! I forgot to send a pm saying my characters were ready. :weep: Oh well. Also, is it 2 or 3 characters I can have active at once? Neither the rules thread nor the Battles thread want to display for me.
templer10 12-13-07, 04:56 AM	Drat! I forgot to send a pm saying my characters were ready. :weep: Oh well. Also, is it 2 or 3 characters I can have active at once? Neither the rules thread nor the Battles thread want to display for me. 2 without paying credits.
Salrantol 12-13-07, 07:10 AM	Drat! I forgot to send a pm saying my characters were ready. :weep: Oh well. Also, is it 2 or 3 characters I can have active at once? Neither the rules thread nor the Battles thread want to display for me.If you cut down on the number of posts per page displayed, the bigger threads will load easier. Also, you can find just the index page of the rules thread (for MUCH faster loading) here.
Hirumajoe 12-13-07, 10:30 AM	I'd say A. You're voluntarily taking your action (i.e. your standard or move action) later. You can't just wait until the surprise round turns into a normal round and then take a full round's worth of actions. Ok, I think I see what Telin was getting at then (although I think he was suggesting if you win initiative you get a full round action next turn - but that doesn't make sense unless you don't actually "delay" but rather you simply don't do anything and not actually change your initiative count). So basically delay is possible during surprise round, but when you do finally act, its still going to be with only a standard actions worth of stuff. That I can understand. I guess this means I need to invest in Psionic Lion's charge at ECL 15. Gotta love standard action charges. Or are you not allowed swift actions during a surprise round? (Wasn't the combat section written before swift and immediate actions even existed? Does swift in this case full under the category of free?)
Macbrea 12-13-07, 11:12 AM	You just need to read delay to get your answer. surprise gives you a standard action. Initiative Consequences of Delaying Your initiative result becomes the count on which you took the delayed action. If you come to your next action and have not yet performed an action, you don’t get to take a delayed action (though you can delay again). If you take a delayed action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round. So, if you delay your surprise round it will reset your initiative to whenever you go. But you will only get a standard action when you do it. So.. given the example: Your initiatives = 20 Your opponents = 10 surprise round initiative 20 to 11 you delay. surprise round initiative 10 your opponent fails to act surprise round initiative 9 to 1 you can go an set your initiative here. Round 1 greater the 21+ you could go as a standard action but would nullify any other action this round. Round 1 20 to 11 you could go here as a full action setting your initiative here. Round 1 9 to 1 you could go here as a full action setting your initiative here.
big_baloo 12-13-07, 01:05 PM	If you cut down on the number of posts per page displayed, the bigger threads will load easier. Also, you can find just the index page of the rules thread (for MUCH faster loading) here. No, it's not a problem with loading slowly, its a problem with loading at all. I'll click either thread (and yes, I was trying the rules index page as well) and it says the page was finished loading, but all I would get was a white screen.
Macbrea 12-13-07, 02:01 PM	You need to reduce the number of pages down to a small amount like 20 per page. It will reload the pages.
TelinArtho 12-13-07, 03:08 PM	Prison II is now closed. For any open violations that are still present, please continue to close them in the old Prison thread. All new violations should be posted to the new prison thread.
templer10 12-13-07, 06:40 PM	need to make sure- a Yrthak has this ability: "Sonic Lance (Su) Once every 2 rounds, a yrthak can focus sonic energy in a ray up to 60 feet long. This is a ranged touch attack that deals 6d6 points of damage to a single target" In the dmg part of the ability it doesnt say it's Sonic dmg but since it's called "Sonic lance" and it say: "a yrthak can focus sonic energy in a ray" it is in fact sonic dmg. yes - i know it's obvios - but I want all my ducks in a row.
MindWandererB 12-13-07, 07:01 PM	Ok, I think I see what Telin was getting at then (although I think he was suggesting if you win initiative you get a full round action next turn - but that doesn't make sense unless you don't actually "delay" but rather you simply don't do anything and not actually change your initiative count). So basically delay is possible during surprise round, but when you do finally act, its still going to be with only a standard actions worth of stuff. That I can understand. I guess this means I need to invest in Psionic Lion's charge at ECL 15. Gotta love standard action charges. Or are you not allowed swift actions during a surprise round? (Wasn't the combat section written before swift and immediate actions even existed? Does swift in this case full under the category of free?)At that time, swift was just a free action that you could do once per round (quickened spell). Unfortunately, you can do free actions during a surprise round "at the DM's discretion." Which means it would have to be a Coutroom thing (if not a Council, since it's admittedly a judgment call and not a rule interpretation).No, it's not a problem with loading slowly, its a problem with loading at all. I'll click either thread (and yes, I was trying the rules index page as well) and it says the page was finished loading, but all I would get was a white screen.Yeah, the forums time out when they take too long to load. I don't know if it has anything to do with your connection speed or if it's entirely the time it takes to upload on their end. @templer: I'd feel comfortable interpreting that as sonic energy damage. It's at least as clear as our ruling about matter agitation dealing fire damage.
dulsi 12-14-07, 12:02 AM	Having heard many tales of the Colliseum, I've decided to try it out. Here is Morro Earthshaker. My plan is to make him a Dwarven Defender. In looking at other characters, I noticed that TelinArtho lists bolts/arrows as expendables but others do not. Doesn't really matter for my build but I thought it was odd.
Callix 12-14-07, 01:01 AM	Having heard many tales of the Colliseum, I've decided to try it out. Here is Morro Earthshaker. My plan is to make him a Dwarven Defender. In looking at other characters, I noticed that TelinArtho lists bolts/arrows as expendables but others do not. Doesn't really matter for my build but I thought it was odd. He seems far from earthshaking. Toughness is a dead feat, and there are better choices than Dodge on its own. Having a few potions/oils is usually a good idea, even for a fighter/barbarian. And why did you make him Lawful Good, losing rage, only to pick up Fighter levels? ...oh. You're aiming for Dwarven Defender. A free word of advice: on two thirds of the maps, people can just get out of sight for 10 rounds, then go back to fighting. Still, it's not impossible. Good luck to you. Also, in quite an amusing typo, he is described as having a "masterwork fail". I'm sure you meant "flail". Anyway, welcome to CoCo. While I may be critical of your builds, I'm honestly glad to see you here. May you have much fun while you are here.
MindWandererB 12-14-07, 01:54 AM	Welcome! Good to have you aboard! In looking at other characters, I noticed that TelinArtho lists bolts/arrows as expendables but others do not. Doesn't really matter for my build but I thought it was odd.Hmm... it looks like some of his older characters do that. They probably predate our rules limiting expendables of certain types. Before that rule change, people would put arrows, alchemical items, wands, etc. in their expendable sections, but now only potions, scrolls, tattoos, and power stones should be there. Being an archer/DD is a decent approach to the idea, but Callix is right--if an opponent wants to avoid being bothered by Defensive Stance, it's pretty easy on 6 of the 7 maps. Assuming you didn't improve your Con at all, yours would last 9 rounds--just short enough for an opponent to leave and return without suffering a delay penalty. And if they want, you're a good but not great archer, so they can just stay out of your reach and shoot you, cast spells at you, or even smack you with a reach weapon. The DD's DR and AC bonus are okay features, but I'm not sure they'd be worth it at the levels when you'd be getting them.
Durzulgor 12-14-07, 05:49 AM	he has quite some hitpoints though!
Stormwind 12-14-07, 05:53 AM	@MindWanderer (& anyone interested in the Playtests): A couple of things came to my attention (indirectly) this week with regards to the rules for the King of the Hill playtest. Specifically, as the rules stand they do not allow invisible characters to gain points for standing on the Hill, however this still leaves several loopholes which I would like to suggest a solution for. The loopholes concern incorporeal and burrowing characters, as currently there is nothing preventing them from taking a 5ft step underground and waiting for 10 rounds. Currently the rules state Hill: For King of the Hill games, a 30'x30' area (6x6 squares) in the center of the arena is designated as the "hill." If the map has any obstacles or unusual terrain in the hill area, those are treated as nonexistent (for example, there is a 6x6 island in the middle of the forest's swamp, and the lava and statue of the temple are ignored). Invisible characters do not count as occupying the hill. For creatures occupying more than once space, they must fit entirely within the hill to score, but even one square occupying the hill prevents an opponent from scoring. Thus I would propose the following change of wording: Hill: For King of the Hill games, a 30'x30' area (6x6 squares) in the center of the arena is designated as the "hill." If the map has any obstacles or unusual terrain in the hill area, those are treated as nonexistent (for example, there is a 6x6 island in the middle of the forest's swamp, and the lava and statue of the temple are ignored). Characters must be plainly visible to an observer anywhere on the hill for them to count as occupying the hill. For creatures occupying more than once space, they must fit entirely within the hill to score, but even one square occupying the hill prevents an opponent from scoring. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Also, one other thing that came to mind, an ECL1 agent has 900gp to spend on equipment. Now the ECL limits for expendables (ECL x ECL x 50=50gp) mean they can have 1 potion or 2 scrolls (or twice that if they craft them themselves). So expendables look fine, however there is currently nothing to stop them spending 750gp on a wand of magic missile or a wand of cure light wounds (both of which provide significant advantages in certain fights). Since agents don't gain money, this gives rise to two scenarios: - 1 - Equipment is permanently expended once they are used. - 2 - Expended equipment is replaced for free (equivalent to Frozen leagues) Naturally the first scenario makes expendable equipment usage unfeasible as 'older' agents will have much less money than 'younger' agents if they do choose to use expendables, however it does encourage more of a focus on 'basic' equipment (which may even be desirable). The second scenario leads to the 'use the most expensive stuff I have' mentality as it will all be refunded anyway. And as mentioned before, since agents don't gain money, there is no third option (unless the rules are changed). Personally, I would rather see the first option being used, but that's just my personal preference.
whitebaron 12-14-07, 06:14 AM	well, i'd rather see agents earn something of their own or earn points for the player to spend, (read: expendables and wands etc. are gone for good)
TelinArtho 12-14-07, 09:32 AM	I actually leave the arrows, bolts, wands, etc in the expendables because they are expendables... I'm stubborn like that. And good luck to dulsi - he and I have talked extensively about how his DD is likely to fail... EDIT - bit of an error in equipment (other than the "[Ma] Fail"...). You paid too much for the Cold Iron Waraxe - the special material only affects the cost of the weapon itself - not the [Ma] component. So it should be 180gp when crafted.
dulsi 12-14-07, 11:10 AM	Being an archer/DD is a decent approach to the idea, but Callix is right--if an opponent wants to avoid being bothered by Defensive Stance, it's pretty easy on 6 of the 7 maps. I understand that DD isn't a good idea for the CoCo. I'm just stubborn and wanted to try to make one. The archer setup is mainly because my 20 move isn't capable of forcing melee. I figure I should have some potions but haven't decided what yet. Have been debating ignoring it for the first fight cycle and seeing how it goes.
hogarth 12-14-07, 11:24 AM	I understand that DD isn't a good idea for the CoCo. I'm just stubborn and wanted to try to make one. The archer setup is mainly because my 20 move isn't capable of forcing melee. I figure I should have some potions but haven't decided what yet. Have been debating ignoring it for the first fight cycle and seeing how it goes. For potions, I cannot recommend potions of Protection from Evil highly enough. For 50 gp you can make yourself immune to 90% of low-level summoned creatures as well as various mind-control spells. My next favourite would probably be a CL 2 (crafted by a ranger) potion of Delay Poison; for 100 gp, make yourself immune to poison for an entire fight.
lonewolf 12-14-07, 12:11 PM	I agree with Stormwinds proposed changes for the Hill. I also have a question about Monster Takedown: If PC A dominates PC B, does the damage PC B causes to the monster from that point on count for PC A´s score? Also can you use Suggestion and/or Charm Person on other PCs during such a fight? Since it is not PvsP I see much better chances than in usual battles.
MindWandererB 12-14-07, 04:30 PM	@MindWanderer (& anyone interested in the Playtests): A couple of things came to my attention (indirectly) this week with regards to the rules for the King of the Hill playtest. Specifically, as the rules stand they do not allow invisible characters to gain points for standing on the Hill, however this still leaves several loopholes which I would like to suggest a solution for. The loopholes concern incorporeal and burrowing characters, as currently there is nothing preventing them from taking a 5ft step underground and waiting for 10 rounds. Currently the rules state Thus I would propose the following change of wording:Good point, but if incorporeality and burrowing are the only problems, I'd rather rephrase it to match my original intent, which was that a character needs to be standing on the hill--not flying over or burrowing under it--to score. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Also, one other thing that came to mind, an ECL1 agent has 900gp to spend on equipment. Now the ECL limits for expendables (ECL x ECL x 50=50gp) mean they can have 1 potion or 2 scrolls (or twice that if they craft them themselves). So expendables look fine, however there is currently nothing to stop them spending 750gp on a wand of magic missile or a wand of cure light wounds (both of which provide significant advantages in certain fights). Since agents don't gain money, this gives rise to two scenarios: - 1 - Equipment is permanently expended once they are used. - 2 - Expended equipment is replaced for free (equivalent to Frozen leagues) Naturally the first scenario makes expendable equipment usage unfeasible as 'older' agents will have much less money than 'younger' agents if they do choose to use expendables, however it does encourage more of a focus on 'basic' equipment (which may even be desirable). The second scenario leads to the 'use the most expensive stuff I have' mentality as it will all be refunded anyway. And as mentioned before, since agents don't gain money, there is no third option (unless the rules are changed). Personally, I would rather see the first option being used, but that's just my personal preference.I currently have this hit with a much bigger nerf hammer: "No agent may have expendable or charged items of any kind, except for ammunition." Because all Challenges are considered frozen, this still seems like the best approach to me. Option 1 doesn't work under the current Community rules (incomplete as they are) because agents can be redesigned at any time (except between when a Challenge has been posted and when it is resolved), so like ECL 3 characters, they can just rebuild themselves and re-buy expendables. So unless I see a compelling reason to allow expendables of any kind, I'd rather they not be there at all.I also have a question about Monster Takedown: If PC A dominates PC B, does the damage PC B causes to the monster from that point on count for PC A´s score? Also can you use Suggestion and/or Charm Person on other PCs during such a fight? Since it is not PvsP I see much better chances than in usual battles.Good questions! I recall a similar issue when playing Mutant Chronicles. (It was a much worse problem in that game because it was a lose/lose scenario for the victim: if the dominator got credit, they could use the victim to get extra points; if the victim got credit, they could be forced to attack allies and incur massive penalties.) Charm and Suggestion further blur the line. I think PC B (the victim) should get the credit, partially because that's the best way to handle stuff like Charm (where they still have free will) and partially because the "judges" won't know any better.
lonewolf 12-14-07, 05:05 PM	alright. Can you use suggestion to tell Character B that it might be a good idea to take out Character C before attacking the monster?
MindWandererB 12-14-07, 05:10 PM	alright. Can you use suggestion to tell Character B that it might be a good idea to take out Character C before attacking the monster? Hm. I see no reason why not.
The Dread Dormammu 12-14-07, 10:26 PM	You need to reduce the number of pages down to a small amount like 20 per page. It will reload the pages. How do you do this?
hogarth 12-14-07, 11:49 PM	How do you do this? Go to "My Account -> Edit My Thread Viewing Options" (the pull-down menu in the box at the top of the page). It's one of the options (# of posts per page).
Rauul 12-15-07, 10:04 AM	Whats the cost to get an animal (light horse) Trained for Combat Riding Package??
hogarth 12-15-07, 10:33 AM	Whats the cost to get an animal (light horse) Trained for Combat Riding Package?? 50 gp
Stormwind 12-16-07, 08:03 AM	Good point, but if incorporeality and burrowing are the only problems, I'd rather rephrase it to match my original intent, which was that a character needs to be standing on the hill--not flying over or burrowing under it--to score. I don't see any problem with characters flying over the hill rather than standing on it as they are still able to be fought effectively. The downside of forcing flying characters to 'stand' on the hill is that it gives a serious advantage to melee characters. As long as they can still be engaged (i.e. ranged combat), I don't see why there should be any restriction on flying specifically. With regards to the wording, I would rather use a more general wording that covers everything rather than specific case wording (invisibility, incorporeality, burrowing), which might leave loopholes that we didn't think of.
whitebaron 12-16-07, 08:24 AM	I don't see any problem with characters flying over the hill rather than standing on it as they are still able to be fought effectively. ok, so in any map without height-restrictions, tactics would be "once i am over the hill, fly straight up all the time" - i don't see where this is less problematic than burrowing.
Stormwind 12-16-07, 11:28 AM	ok, so in any map without height-restrictions, tactics would be "once i am over the hill, fly straight up all the time" - i don't see where this is less problematic than burrowing. Hmm ... well the only map without a height restriction is the plains ... but you have a good point ... Perhaps make the 'Hill' a 30ft x 30ft x 30ft cube? Edit: Note that changes on this at this stage will have an effect on Varjo's agents tactics so if we change/define the rules in this respect, then I would request that the pitlord(Vathelokai) can take these changes into effect for Varjo's agent's tactics so as to fit the new rules (i.e. stay within the 'Hill' however it is to be defined) ... otherwise it simply invalidates Varjo's agent's tactics, which kinda defeats the point of these playtests ...
whitebaron 12-16-07, 03:53 PM	question concerning shared spells: an invisibility spell ends, when the target of the spell does a direct attack. if his familiar attacks, does it end for the caster too?
MindWandererB 12-16-07, 04:58 PM	question concerning shared spells: an invisibility spell ends, when the target of the spell does a direct attack. if his familiar attacks, does it end for the caster too? It ends for both, I think. The RotG is less helpful than I'd like: When the familiar and the master share a spell, they function as one being where the spell's effects are concerned. For example, if the master chooses to share a teleport spell with his familiar, the familiar doesn't count toward the spell's creature limit. Likewise, if the master shares a water breathing spell with his familiar, the familiar shares the master's portion of the spell's duration and does not count as another creature touched. A shared mirror image spell creates duplicates of both the master and the familiar, and a successful hit on either the master's or the familiar's image eliminates one duplicate master and one duplicate familiar. A shared protection from energy spell shields both the master and the familiar, but all energy damage that either the familiar or the master suffers is deducted from the total amount of energy the spell can absorb.But:When you and your animal companion share a spell, you're effectively adding one free target (your animal companion) to the spell's effect. In simple cases, the spell just affects both of you in the same way. For example, when you share a cure light wounds spell with your animal companion, the spell provides healing equal to 1d8 + your caster level for both you and for your animal companion. A shared spider climb spell gives both you and your animal companion the power to climb sheer, smooth surfaces. A shared protection from energy spell provides a separate ablative shield against the chosen energy type to you and to your animal companion.However, note that Mass Invisibility ends whenever any recipient attacks; Invisibility Sphere also ends for all creatures when the recipient attacks. So regardless of which RotG you believe, the whole spell should end when either recipient attacks.
The Dread Dormammu 12-17-07, 03:17 AM	X-mas (that's right the holiday celebrating the birth of Xitfgriqug a lesser deity revered by goblins) has come early this year for one Goblin wizard in the form of a little over 4000gp. http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=12985771#post12985771 The gold has gone unspent due to laziness, for too long. What should Snaga spend it on? Extra points for originality!
Stormwind 12-17-07, 04:07 AM	While something like the Headband of intellect (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/magicItemsWI.html#headband-of-intellect) is probably a good purchase, it's also quite boring as everybody who is anybody at the Arcane Order is walking around with something similar. For shear entertainment value I recommend Marvelous pigments (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/magicItemsWI.html#marvelous-pigments), cheap at only 4000gp. Just imagine, the ability to create anything that you might need with just a flick of the brush. Of course it does require a minimum of artistic talent and a little intelligence, but just imagine the possibilities and they will come to life before you. And of course the Silver raven figurine (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/magicItemsWI.html#figurines-of-wondrous-power) is often overlooked and a real bargain for only 3800gp. Most people view the silver raven as nothing more than a messenger, but who wouldn't want a pet with a hard metallic skin, especially when your enemies are too busy admiring the gleaming silvery bird to pay any attention to what you might .. or might not be doing.
Rauul 12-17-07, 07:15 AM	"Bessie" could use some enchantment.. or maybe a nice Amulet of Health.. or even Gloves of Dexterity.. All useful and good to have.. Maybe some more Spells for the baby Goblin..
Durzulgor 12-17-07, 08:52 AM	Sooo, taking it here as you advised: Right- who a foe depends on the creatures perceptions, but that doesn't remove the requirement that what is attacked be a creature. For instance- if you tried to sunder a chest while invisible & it was a mimic, invisibility would wear off. Invisibility doesn't wear off when you attack(examples: sundering rope, or any other object, just swinging your sword through the air, etc, etc)- it wears off when you attack a creature. Reading this I'm going the extremely cheasy route: Attacking an object does NOT break invis leads to: => Durz goes invisible, (maybe enlarged), walkes over to his enemies, sunders all their weapons, scrolls, wands, sunder-able equipment... ...and starts attacking then! ;-) Do you really think this is the intent of invisibility? ;-)
McJarvis 12-17-07, 09:06 AM	Sooo, taking it here as you advised: Reading this I'm going the extremely cheasy route: Attacking an object does NOT break invis leads to: => Durz goes invisible, (maybe enlarged), walkes over to his enemies, sunders all their weapons, scrolls, wands, sunder-able equipment... ...and starts attacking then! ;-) Do you really think this is the intent of invisibility? ;-) I'm pretty sure using the sunder action against an attended object means you're attacking the creature attending it. (after all- it's an opposed roll with the creature, not the object). That's certainly what the spell suggests, at least. You're not too far off the mark of the spell being weird, though. When I was talking Rith the other night I came up with this strange formula: Cut his hair: still invisible! Give him a mannicure: still invisible! Perform non-harmful surgery: still invisible! "Sabotage" his shoelaces with a disable device check to make him trip: still invisible! Very carefully prick him with a dagger for 1 hp damage: invis comes off. I believe we decided there is a god of RAW out there somewhere whose only purpose is to actively guard the invisibility spell to make sure it gets dispelled whenever someone is attacking with it in a very precise manner.
Durzulgor 12-17-07, 09:16 AM	I believe we decided there is a god of RAW out there somewhere whose only purpose is to actively guard the invisibility spell to make sure it gets dispelled whenever someone is attacking with it in a very precise manner. rofl! You made my day! ;-)) Still is attacking an attended object really the same as attacking a creature? Since my silent images are "attended" aren't they? ^^
McJarvis 12-17-07, 09:25 AM	Still is attacking an attended object really the same as attacking a creature? Since my silent images are "attended" aren't they? ^^ Not in the way "attended" means in the rules. Like if there was a spell that let you create an object with a duration of concentration, unless you(or someone else) were holding the object it wouldn't be "attended". Actually- a good example would be if you created an image of a weapon. If someone tried to use the sunder action against it they'd be attacking "you", a creature. Or more simply: there is no opposed check if I attack a silent image that isn't held by you. edit- PS- I understated the god of RAW's duties. He also has to safeguard when "touch" spells go off, since technically shocking grasp could only be cast while naked if they really went off even with accidental touching ;)
whitebaron 12-17-07, 03:37 PM	i believe that invis drops once you attack something you believe to be your enemy or that belongs to your enemy. @attended objects: if the objects are just worn, you don't get an opposed check. so basically, if its not hold in your hands, you don't get an opposed check, thus your opponent stays invis? doubtful. about attacking an illusion: so, if you mm a mirror image, and don't hit the caster, do you get visible? according to the logic before, you'd only get visible once you'd hit the right one?
McJarvis 12-17-07, 03:52 PM	i believe that invis drops once you attack something you believe to be your enemy or that belongs to your enemy. @attended objects: if the objects are just worn, you don't get an opposed check. so basically, if its not hold in your hands, you don't get an opposed check, thus your opponent stays invis? doubtful. about attacking an illusion: so, if you mm a mirror image, and don't hit the caster, do you get visible? according to the logic before, you'd only get visible once you'd hit the right one? Pretty much. Invis _can't_ work merely on what you perceive to be your enemy, because it works even on things which are mindless that don't have beliefs. [they just have orders] Otherwise some wizard somewhere would have made a zombie invisible and he would never come out of it ;) Or maybe worse- what if you cast invisibility on a trap or some other non-thinking construct? Surely these would become visible upon "attacking" a creature- but never have intent. Of course- there is a long standing unwritten CoCo house rule that you can treat the images[from mirror image] like they are all in the same as the caster at your convenience. [this is why many people close their eyes for a 50% miss chance instead of attacking an image for a 1/5 chance to hit.] I'm pretty opposed to that line of thought- but it certainly does fix the "invisible creatures stay invisible when striking a mirror image target" line of thought. edit- Obviously mincing words on this spell will come down to a judgement call, but I really don't think creatures should become visible when "attacking" something that isn't a creature when there isn't a creature nearby at all. Seems to me that if you can sunder a rope you should be able to swish your blade through an image without the invis dropping. [though obviously such logic can't be used too loosely. If a cleric happened to animate that rope you were going to sunder- bam, you're back at square one and invis wears off.]
whitebaron 12-17-07, 04:31 PM	what is the dc to spot a rope dangling from a rope trick at 110ft? -11 for range, that much is clear.
Hirumajoe 12-17-07, 04:47 PM	what is the dc to spot a rope dangling from a rope trick at 110ft? -11 for range, that much is clear. From what I understand, objects are auto-spotted in the CoCo. Unless its an attended object, at which point, you would use the hide roll of the character or creature attending it. Also note if the rope doesn't have cover or concealment, it can't hide anyways (with or without an attending person). Don't know if this is true in this particular case. :)
whitebaron 12-17-07, 05:26 PM	as people are according to coco rules(re-read them) auto-spotted when they leave cover, i believe unattended objects should be auto-spotted too, even if they have partial cover. i'll go with this for the fight.
McJarvis 12-17-07, 05:43 PM	as people are according to coco rules(re-read them) auto-spotted when they leave cover, i believe unattended objects should be auto-spotted too, even if they have partial cover. i'll go with this for the fight. This is accurate. Unattended objects are always auto-spotted in CoCo unless they have total concealment[such as heavy smoke] or complete cover.
TelinArtho 12-17-07, 08:09 PM	as people are according to coco rules(re-read them) auto-spotted when they leave cover, i believe unattended objects should be auto-spotted too, even if they have partial cover. i'll go with this for the fight. Yes - unattended objects in view are auto-spotted. If the object has cover - it is not out in the open and would not be autospotted (DC0+1 per 10ft).
McJarvis 12-17-07, 08:13 PM	Yes - unattended objects in view are auto-spotted. If the object has cover - it is not out in the open and would not be autospotted (DC0+1 per 10ft). I haven't heard this one before. I just remember sauro telling me a long time ago that unattended objects are autospotted unless they are totally out of view b/c they can not "hide".
TelinArtho 12-17-07, 08:36 PM	Well - I guess to me it just stands to reason - if something has cover and was not previously out in plain view - it is not auto-spotted when it gets to a less-than-total-cover state. That said - I consider it a non-issue in most cases (because negating cover is often unimportant with non-attended objects). ----------------- As for the invisibility thing, I found that the exact situation isn't fully covered in the FAQ. Here's what I did find (I'm using the 10/18/2006 FAQ - so page numbers may not be accurate): Are the multiple figments from a mirror image spell legal targets for cleaving? That is, if you have the Cleave feat and you hit an image and destroy it, can you tehn attack another target within reach (such as another figment from the spell or perhaps the spell user)? ... For all intents and purposes, the figments from a foe's mirror image spell are your foes. You aim your spells and your attacks at the figments just as though they were real creatures. Any spell you can aim at a creature you can aim at an image. When you use a spell that allows you to select multiple creatures as targets, such as magic missile, you can choose multiple images as targets. Now, I am supposing that the question and answer there should apply equally to mirror image figments as other figments (such as from silent image). I see no reason that mirror image figments have special rules with regard to attacks than other figments. I stand by my ruling that attacking a figment of the opponent(s) would break invisibility. That said - attacking a figment of a non-attended object would not - of course, neither would attacking the non-attended object itself...
Durzulgor 12-17-07, 09:12 PM	sooo, we're back to the question: "What exactly is an attended object?" Anything you need an opposed roll for to sunder, or anything "in a creature's posession" or rather "held, wielded, worn or carried by a creature". I'd certainly say the latter, but is this in line with the rules? (=> sundering cloak or so)
hogarth 12-17-07, 10:44 PM	As for the invisibility thing, I found that the exact situation isn't fully covered in the FAQ. Here's what I did find (I'm using the 10/18/2006 FAQ - so page numbers may not be accurate): Now, I am supposing that the question and answer there should apply equally to mirror image figments as other figments (such as from silent image). I see no reason that mirror image figments have special rules with regard to attacks than other figments. I stand by my ruling that attacking a figment of the opponent(s) would break invisibility. That said - attacking a figment of a non-attended object would not - of course, neither would attacking the non-attended object itself... I think the FAQ ruling that says that touch spells are discharged when a mirror image is hit is more similar to the question about breaking invisibility. Of course, I think that's a dumb ruling, but it's there in black and white... What happens when an attacker accidentally uses a touch spell against a figment from a mirror image spell? You can hold the charge with a touch spell, right? So if you touch an image (which really isn’t there), is the touch spell discharged? Does the touch spell user get a chance to disbelieve the image and avoid discharging the spell? As noted in an earlier question, the figments from a mirror image spell function just like creatures for the purpose of aiming spells. If a foe using a touch spell touches an image, the spell is harmlessly discharged (though the image is destroyed).
MindWandererB 12-18-07, 12:57 AM	Yes - unattended objects in view are auto-spotted. If the object has cover - it is not out in the open and would not be autospotted (DC0+1 per 10ft). DC 0 doesn't seem right, though: it should be DC -5 (0 Dex) +/- size modifier. Otherwise, I agree.
The Dread Dormammu 12-18-07, 02:49 AM	While something like the Headband of intellect (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/magicItemsWI.html#headband-of-intellect) is probably a good purchase... For shear entertainment value I recommend Marvelous pigments (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/magicItemsWI.html#marvelous-pigments), cheap at only 4000gp... And of course the Silver raven figurine (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/magicItemsWI.html#figurines-of-wondrous-power) is often overlooked and a real bargain for only 3800gp. Most people view the silver raven as nothing more than a messenger.... These are all good choices, it's my understanding that Marvelous pigments take 10 minutes to use though, perhaps not the best thing to have in a hectic Arena. What are your feelings about Pipes of the Sewers? http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#pipesoftheSewers
mucki 12-18-07, 03:55 AM	guenevere Hello there Guenevere :) Nice name.
Stormwind 12-18-07, 03:57 AM	Pipes of the sewers (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/magicItemsWI.html#pipes-of-the-sewers) can be useful, but in my opinion they are most useful against opponents who are not prepared or able to deal with swarms. At level 3 & 4 about 60-70% of opponents are currently unable to deal with a swarm, however as you increase in level, most (if not all) opponents will be able to handle a swarm easily, and thus it is an item that will be less useful as you level. If you decide to go that route, be aware that there is a good chance that your opponent may be able to locate you by listening and thus some form of movement might be wise (riding dog/horse/flight ... ). Of course invisibility is almost a necessity.
CrazyArtificer 12-18-07, 04:48 AM	Pipes of the sewers (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/magicItemsWI.html#pipes-of-the-sewers) can be useful, but in my opinion they are most useful against opponents who are not prepared or able to deal with swarms. At level 3 & 4 about 60-70% of opponents are currently unable to deal with a swarm, however as you increase in level, most (if not all) opponents will be able to handle a swarm easily, and thus it is an item that will be less useful as you level. If you decide to go that route, be aware that there is a good chance that your opponent may be able to locate you by listening and thus some form of movement might be wise (riding dog/horse/flight ... ). Of course invisibility is almost a necessity. Yes, I agree with you. Swarms are deadly in low level fights, but as soon as you get some area attack they are pretty doomed. Also, it wouldn't be guaranteed to have rats near the arena (no-one clearing that place, eh?). No-one mentioned it, but priced at 4k there's also a level 2 Pearl of Power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#pearlofPower)
TelinArtho 12-18-07, 11:00 AM	Hello there Guenevere :) Nice name. Thanks mucki - her name was my choice and it fit well with my minor obsession about Arthurian history/legend...
McJarvis 12-18-07, 11:01 AM	DC 0 doesn't seem right, though: it should be DC -5 (0 Dex) +/- size modifier. Otherwise, I agree. So does this apply for concealment too? Specifically- I was going to have Poe place eversmoking bottles around the arena and Sauro told me they'd get autospotted the moment they didn't have total cover/total concealment.
Rauul 12-18-07, 01:01 PM	No-one mentioned it, but priced at 4k there's also a level 2 Pearl of Power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#pearlofPower) 2k and 4 days if you have the feat to make them and can cast 2nd level spells :) 2 of them if you don't mind sitting out and getting drunk for the 2nd week
templer10 12-18-07, 01:55 PM	question -if someone is hidden, he attacks then he moves and breaks LOS - does his hide check suffer -5 (Since he moves more then half his speed - and he did) or -20 for attacking?
McJarvis 12-18-07, 01:57 PM	question -if someone is hidden, he attacks then he moves and breaks LOS - does his hide check suffer -5 (Since he moves more then half his speed - and he did) or -20 for attacking? -20
lonewolf 12-18-07, 02:01 PM	I would even say -25.
McJarvis 12-18-07, 02:07 PM	I would even say -25. That depends on if the movement was at full speed. (& if penalties stack like that)
Hirumajoe 12-18-07, 02:51 PM	I'd say -5. Mostly because of the wording in the hide skill: It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging. At the point in time the character is trying to hide (move action part) they are not attacking. Otherwise, why would they need the qualifier for charging (since a charge includes an attack). The -20 penalty does not apply before the attack or after the attack, just during the moment of the strike. Another reference is the 3.5 FAQ where they discuss Hide in Plain sight being used in conjuction with Spring Attack. 1. The character begins his turn hidden (as long as he's in natural terrain, he doesn't even need cover or concealment). 2. He moves up to a foe across natural terrain and makes an attack (making a Hide check with a -20 penalty to be considered hiding when he attacks). 3. He then moves back from the foe and makes a new Hide check to disappear from view (again, he doesn't need cover or concealment while in natural terrain). 4. The foe then, if still standing, says, "Hey, what hit me??!" Edit: Also it neatly side steps the issue of stacking penalties since you can't be both moving and attacking at the same moment.
McJarvis 12-18-07, 02:58 PM	@Hirm: As long as I've been here[many years] we've treated the -20 as "if you attacked in the round- you get a -20." I understand your logic in reading it, and since I'm planning a shadow dancer of my own I fully support that- but it would require a council/courtroom decision to get that made "kosher", IMO. PS- as form of distraction, I finally started the online campaign. :)
Salrantol 12-18-07, 03:03 PM	Can you have a spectral hand deliver the touch attack for a touch spell from a wand (i.e. wand of shocking grasp)? Can you hold the charge of a touch spell cast from said wand?
Hirumajoe 12-18-07, 03:04 PM	@Hirm: As long as I've been here[many years] we've treated the -20 as "if you attacked in the round- you get a -20." I understand your logic in reading it, and since I'm planning a shadow dancer of my own I fully support that- but it would require a council/courtroom decision to get that made "kosher", IMO. PS- as form of distraction, I finally started the online campaign. :) First, Yay! Second, there was a discussion awhile back between Lonewolf, TelinArtho, and myself regarding a HIPS enabled character of Lonewolf's taking the action to shoot, then move and using HIPS to hide during the move without penalty. At the time, the 3.5 FAQ quoted section was enough to convince Telin. (Assuming my memory isn't faulty). Unfortunately, the search function isn't being very cooperative and I'm having some slight difficulty finding it... Edit: Perhaps the quickest way is to just repost the question in the court thread.
The Dread Dormammu 12-18-07, 03:05 PM	Also, it wouldn't be guaranteed to have rats near the arena (no-one clearing that place, eh?). Isn't there something about "ideal" conditions; If the floor needs to be stone, it's stone and if it needs to be soft earth for burrowing it's soft earth, if there need to be rat swarms nearby, there are. Also 2 questions: What about a permanent spell? It looks like Snaga would be limited to a level 1 or 0 spell? What about reduced person, or perhaps Detect magic? Do wands not specifically mentioned in the DMG cost credits?
TelinArtho 12-18-07, 03:13 PM	First, Yay! Second, there was a discussion awhile back between Lonewolf, TelinArtho, and myself regarding a HIPS enabled character of Lonewolf's taking the action to shoot, then move and using HIPS to hide during the move without penalty. At the time, the 3.5 FAQ quoted section was enough to convince Telin. (Assuming my memory isn't faulty). Unfortunately, the search function isn't being very cooperative and I'm having some slight difficulty finding it... Edit: Perhaps the quickest way is to just repost the question in the court thread. Your memory is not faulty. I agreed with it since it is specifically addressed in the FAQ - not because I felt it was necessarily correct. However, when given a choice between my own opinion and the available rules (and extensions therein (like the FAQ)), I tend to side with the latter. And as for the campaign... well - FIRST POST :)
CrazyArtificer 12-19-07, 12:15 PM	I'm reading the Allies section of the Rules, but I am a bit confused.. I created Eland for fighting today, and I thought an ally would allow me more sneak attacks.. I first thought about a mercenary (the level 1 druid), but then I came to read that you need ECL 5 to hire those. Then I considered a riding dog. When I read the part about the Handle Animal allies, I am not sure if I fully understand it. According to cHA, a riding dog has a cHa of 3. Would this mean that I would be allowed to have a dog (ECL 3-2=1), but I can't because my cHA max is lower (cHA max 1)?
whitebaron 12-19-07, 12:35 PM	about allies: first, ecl3+4 are special in the arena. they are meant for beginners as well as new concepts, and therefore are special in regards what you can bring or can't bring. only very few animals are allowed in ECL3 bracket, ECL4 does not get much better. ecl5+ you are allowed to bring in ECL-2 worth of allies, and each of your ally can have up to CRally = ECL-4 or ECLally = ECL-2. about bought animals: they don't need handle animal. every animal thats listed with a price, can be bought without need to have handle animal ranks. about handle animal allies: in order to gain a handle animal ally, you'd need to take a miniquest. at ECL 3, you can bring an ordinary dog. at ECL4, feel free to bring 2 riding dogs. @sal: yes and yes. basically, a spell cast from a wand is only different in its origins, but not in its limitations or abilities.
CrazyArtificer 12-19-07, 01:27 PM	Ok whitebaron, thanks for your explanation. A dog wouldn't be really useful, so Eland is going to fight on his own this time :)
whitebaron 12-19-07, 02:58 PM	i think i got the mechanics right, but nevertheless, i want to get them confirmed. 1) Breath Weapon recharge: every 1d4 rounds useable. So, if the Monster uses breath weapon in round 1, rolls a 1, it is again usable in round 2, right? 2) Full Attack and Snatch/Improved Grab. Does the usage of this ability negate the later attacks, or can i just hit with the whole full attack and then start to grab? 3) Multiple Attacks. Is there any reference in the srd whether you get to decide which attacks are done first and which later?
CrazyArtificer 12-19-07, 03:19 PM	i think i got the mechanics right, but nevertheless, i want to get them confirmed. 1) Breath Weapon recharge: every 1d4 rounds useable. So, if the Monster uses breath weapon in round 1, rolls a 1, it is again usable in round 2, right? Yes. 2) Full Attack and Snatch/Improved Grab. Does the usage of this ability negate the later attacks, or can i just hit with the whole full attack and then start to grab? It won't negate later attacks. Do not forget that you get a grapple attempt for each attack you got. If you want you can also try to pin an opponent with a single limb, taking a -20 (going from memory). Even if you grappled with both limbs (or more) you can still make further attacks (which will be grapple actions) up to your full attack. 3) Multiple Attacks. Is there any reference in the srd whether you get to decide which attacks are done first and which later? Usually the attacks made first are the ones with the highest attack modifier (and the others take -5 or -2 if the monster got multiattack). I believe that in case they use all the same modifier it doesn't really matter which one you use first, so you just do them as you like.
hogarth 12-19-07, 03:19 PM	2) Full Attack and Snatch/Improved Grab. Does the usage of this ability negate the later attacks, or can i just hit with the whole full attack and then start to grab? 3) Multiple Attacks. Is there any reference in the srd whether you get to decide which attacks are done first and which later? I've tried this approach (do natural attacks first and grapple attempts last) a number of times with a Bronze Griffon, and no pitlord has allowed it so far... The SRD is mute on the issue, I think.
CrazyArtificer 12-19-07, 03:23 PM	I've tried this approach (do natural attacks first and grapple attempts last) a number of times with a Bronze Griffon, and no pitlord has allowed it so far... The SRD is mute on the issue, I think. I would allow it only for your last attack.. I really can't imagine a monster hitting someone with a claw (say) and keeping the claw on the prey while attacking with another claw, a bite and something else. Unless he manages to do that with a grapple attempt made after he hits.
hogarth 12-19-07, 03:44 PM	I would allow it only for your last attack.. I really can't imagine a monster hitting someone with a claw (say) and keeping the claw on the prey while attacking with another claw, a bite and something else. Unless he manages to do that with a grapple attempt made after he hits. That's not quite what I was arguing. I think the rules are clear that a griffon can make the following attack routine (on a full attack): ** unarmed strike/unarmed strike (-5 for iterative attack)/bite (-2 for secondary attack)/claw (-2)/claw (-2) My idea is that the griffon can make the bite/claw/claw attacks first, and then use the unarmed strike attacks to initiate a grapple. But so far the pitlords I've had haven't allowed that sequence of attacks -- it's either been grapple attempts (and nothing else) or a bite/claw/claw, not both.
whitebaron 12-19-07, 03:50 PM	That's not quite what I was arguing. I think the rules are clear that a griffon can make the following attack routine (on a full attack): ** unarmed strike/unarmed strike (-5 for iterative attack)/bite (-2 for secondary attack)/claw (-2)/claw (-2) My idea is that the griffon can make the bite/claw/claw attacks first, and then use the unarmed strike attacks to initiate a grapple. But so far the pitlords I've had haven't allowed that sequence of attacks -- it's either been grapple attempts (and nothing else) or a bite/claw/claw, not both. huh? how is the griffon supposed to get additional unarmed attacks to his full attack, which reads Full Attack: Bite +11 melee (2d6+4) and 2 claws +8 melee (1d4+2) also, an animal never gets more attacks simply from his bab.
CrazyArtificer 12-19-07, 03:57 PM	That's not quite what I was arguing. I think the rules are clear that a griffon can make the following attack routine (on a full attack): ** unarmed strike/unarmed strike (-5 for iterative attack)/bite (-2 for secondary attack)/claw (-2)/claw (-2) Wait, I don't get this.. from the griffon entry I see just the bite and claws.. where are you taking the other 2 unarmed strikes from? Usually monsters can't do more attacks than their natural attacks routine (can't recall where it was written). My idea is that the griffon can make the bite/claw/claw attacks first, and then use the unarmed strike attacks to initiate a grapple. But so far the pitlords I've had haven't allowed that sequence of attacks -- it's either been grapple attempts (and nothing else) or a bite/claw/claw, not both. At first glance, I'd tend to agree with those pitlords.. but maybe once you explain what do you mean as unarmed attacks I may agree with you.
MindWandererB 12-19-07, 04:32 PM	hogarth is right: an unarmed strike is considered a manufactured weapon for the purpose of iterative attacks. So the griffon could definitely take unarmed +10/unarmed +5/bite +9/claw +8/claw +8. The only rule remember about taking attacks in a certain order is in Tome of Battle under a specific maneuver, which is so obscure a source I'm not at all sure it should count.
hogarth 12-19-07, 04:34 PM	I guess it's not that clear after all. :) Here's a list of assertions that you're welcome to disagree with: Most characters and monsters are capable of making an unarmed strike. It doesn't matter whether you have hands or natural weapons or not; for instance, a lizardman could headbutt an enemy or a cow could kick a farmer. Unarmed attacks aren't treated the same as natural weapons; you can get iterative attacks with an unarmed strike, for one thing. So if a 7 HD griffon wanted to headbutt a foe, it could make two attacks because of its BAB of +7. Certainly if it were in a grapple, it would get to make two grapple attempts and it would do unarmed strike damage (just like a level 7 fighter would). Creatures with natural weapons can mix manufactured weapon attacks and natural weapon attacks by using their natural weapon attacks as secondary attacks. For instance, a centaur can attack with a greatsword and make two hoof attacks as secondary attacks. Or he should be able to make an unarmed strike (a punch with a gauntleted hand, maybe) as a manufactured weapon attack and two hoof attacks as secondary attacks. (See the D&D FAQ for details.) So by this reasoning, a griffon should be able to make two unarmed strikes as "manufactured weapon"-style iterative attacks and a variety of secondary attacks. Certainly if it had armor spikes, it could make two armor spike attacks and a variety of secondary attacks; unarmed strikes shouldn't be any different. Furthermore, a griffon should be able to make grab attempts instead of regular unarmed strikes, along with a variety of secondary attacks. I think most people start to disagree with me somewhere around #4. :)
whitebaron 12-19-07, 05:05 PM	well, rotg tells otherwise The creature must make all unarmed attacks with its primary limb, which prevents that hand from being used for a natural attack such as a claw or slam. A nalfeshnee using the first method would have three unarmed attacks (thanks to its base attack bonus of +14). Applying its size modifier, and Strength modifier, the nalfeshnee's total attack modifiers for its three natural attacks are +19, +14, and +9. These natural attacks each deal 1d6+7 points of nonlethal damage. Each of the nalfeshnee's natural weapons takes a -2 penalty for a secondary natural weapon (thanks to the nalfeshnee's Multiattack feat) and gains only half the nalfeshnee's Strength modifier to damage, which gives it two secondary attacks, as follows: one bite +18 (2d8+3) and one claw +17 (1d8+3); it loses one claw attack in order to make unarmed attacks with its primary limb. Using the second method, the nalfeshnee's natural attacks are made at a -4 penalty (bite +16, 2 claws +13) but deal normal damage. It then makes one unarmed attack at +15 (+14 for base attack bonus, -2 for size, +7 for Strength, -4 for off-hand light weapon) that deals 1d6+3 points of nonlethal damage. about the grab though: you would be in the grapple for the remaining attacks. you can't use natural attacks two different attacks in the grapple. basically, it comes down to the "can you reorder your attacks?" - question. i'd personally say no, as the rules don't state otherwise. so you always have to do them in the order of appearance in the monster entry, or from highest to lowest as a PC. looking at this, i'd say that you could go on full attacking with improved grab/snatch. its after all the same attack type. - to easy A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks when it grapples its foe. Normally, a monster can attack with only one of its natural weapons while grappling, but a monster with the rake ability usually gains two additional claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe.
MindWandererB 12-19-07, 05:24 PM	I forgot about that inane RotG, which is contradicted by every rule everywhere (RAW, FAQ, and even the previous page of the same article!). But since it's the only direct example of this, I guess we have to go with it. <grumble, grumble>
whitebaron 12-19-07, 05:37 PM	I forgot about that inane RotG, which is contradicted by every rule everywhere (RAW, FAQ, and even the previous page of the same article!). But since it's the only direct example of this, I guess we have to go with it. <grumble, grumble> well, it sounds logical to me, that if you try to hit with your PRIMARY unarmed attack, you'd have to give up something for it. (your primary natural weapon, griffon: bite.) so. a griffon would get: (unarmed, unarmed) fixed, and then either (claw, claw) or (rake, rake) depending on whether he could start the grapple or not. -> in the subsequent grappling round he would do bite, rake, rake. (all at -4) or unarmed, unarmed. (grapple for damage)
MindWandererB 12-19-07, 05:46 PM	It doesn't say your primary natural weapon, it says your primary limb. So the griffon would lose a claw, not the bite. It would be unarmed/unarmed/bite/claw or unarmed/unarmed/rake/rake. If already grappling it would be bite/rake/rake or unarmed/unarmed/rake/rake or grapple/grapple/rake/rake (a grapple check takes the place of a normal attack, so the rakes are still possible).
templer10 12-19-07, 07:47 PM	Question - is it possible to do dimension door to outside the cavern (i assume there IS an outside)? (and obviosly come back before the 10 round limit is up)?
MindWandererB 12-19-07, 07:58 PM	Question - is it possible to do dimension door to outside the cavern (i assume there IS an outside)? (and obviosly come back before the 10 round limit is up)? In the past it's been ruled that you can't, no. And our current rules about map edges prevent it as well.
CrazyArtificer 12-20-07, 05:56 AM	Question: can I create an Alchemist's fire flask which contain 20 "doses"? If yes, what would be the damage? A wizard toying with Shrink Item
whitebaron 12-20-07, 06:14 AM	every custom item would have to be approved via blackmarket, and you'd need to either use gather information or credits for this. else, you only have the items as specified in the core. the only exception are other caster levels on scrolls and potions. unrelated coco-rules-questions: a) i discount an item. (like say, adamantine longsword) then, i want to upgrade it to +1. then to +1 shocking. is it allowed to discount on these kind of upgrades individually? (3015-8%, 2000-9%, 6000-10%)? b) upgrading bag of tricks: is it possible to move from one to the other without having to sell the cheaper and buy the bigger? as a dm, i'd probably allow this, like +1 to +2 items, but what about coco?
hogarth 12-20-07, 06:38 AM	unrelated coco-rules-questions: a) i discount an item. (like say, adamantine longsword) then, i want to upgrade it to +1. then to +1 shocking. is it allowed to discount on these kind of upgrades individually? (3015-8%, 2000-9%, 6000-10%)? b) upgrading bag of tricks: is it possible to move from one to the other without having to sell the cheaper and buy the bigger? as a dm, i'd probably allow this, like +1 to +2 items, but what about coco? a) As long as you take a separate Discount free activity for each purchase, I don't see why not. b) This has been answered before. Yes, you can update a Bag of Tricks from one version to another.
McJarvis 12-20-07, 06:43 AM	b) This has been answered before. Yes, you can update a Bag of Tricks from one version to another. Really? I asked about something else(I think it was a PoP) and was told I couldn't upgrade it because it was not an "upgraded" effect, but rather an entirely different effect. Bag of tricks strikes me as the same sort of thing.
McJarvis 12-20-07, 08:07 AM	@Hirm: Curses! I just noticed that Kai leveled to 5 while Thorell was stumbling through ECL3. I'll catch you yet- with any luck. Hopefully activating thorell EVERY week will make the difference :)
hogarth 12-20-07, 09:51 AM	Really? I asked about something else(I think it was a PoP) and was told I couldn't upgrade it because it was not an "upgraded" effect, but rather an entirely different effect. Bag of tricks strikes me as the same sort of thing. Hmmm...either my memory is hazy or my searching ability is sub-par. I thought that I asked about upgrading a bag of tricks quite a while ago and was told "probably not" and I thought someone else asked about it more recently and was told "yes, you can". But a forum search for "bag" hasn't turned anything up.
McJarvis 12-20-07, 01:21 PM	Question: can I create an Alchemist's fire flask which contain 20 "doses"? If yes, what would be the damage? A wizard toying with Shrink Item No. The only mechanic allowed by the rules is to throw a flask for 1d6 + 1d6 one round later. This is a pretty good deal, since a dorjes of energy ray(ml2) costs 30gp per charge for 2d6+2 damage and the flask is only 20 gp for 2d6 damage. [and you don't have to buy it in bulk!]
CrazyArtificer 12-20-07, 01:48 PM	No. The only mechanic allowed by the rules is to throw a flask for 1d6 + 1d6 one round later. This is a pretty good deal, since a dorjes of energy ray(ml2) costs 30gp per charge for 2d6+2 damage and the flask is only 20 gp for 2d6 damage. [and you don't have to buy it in bulk!] Well, Alchemist's fire isn't guaranteed to do 2d6.. I can live with that though :)
hogarth 12-20-07, 01:52 PM	In the spirit of sleaziness and dubious tricks, I was considering giving Reginald Molehusband's cohort the spell Shrink Item and using it to shrink bonfires. According to the psionic power Control Flames (for instance), a 2'x2' bonfire does 4d6 damage (I suspect it's a typo and they mean a 2 square x 2 square bonfire). That's why Reginald's "at home" equipment lists "100,000 assorted clubs and quarterstaffs" (a.k.a. firewood). In the end, it was too dubious even for good, ol' Reg. :)
McJarvis 12-20-07, 01:59 PM	I'd imagine a portable wall would still be pretty useful in some arenas. Shrinking a large-sized stone block down to tiny-size would make it portable, and you could effectively route an opponent...or give you more buffing time. [or break LoS] I'm not sure I'd be comfortable with someone using the spell to crush or burn an opponent, though :) edit- Oddly, you could do this twice and then seal yourself away from your opponent in the sewers. Without a way to cast shrink item again, you'd have to wait until you or your opponent could sunder the stone blocks....what a "great" way to run out his buffs :-) Especially if you made them out of adamantine! [rich kid?] double edit- Forget adamantine, you'd only need iron. We know iron costs 1 sp per pound- how many pounds would a 10x10 block of iron weigh? at 30 hp per inch & hardness 15, we're talking thousands of hps worth of protection :) triple edit- whew. Wrought iron[not sure if that's what D&D uses, but whatever] weights about 480 lbs per square foot, so we're talking 48k gp for a 10x10x10 square of it. (and shrunk down they're still 120 lbs each- whew) That's still a stinking cool idea, though.
CrazyArtificer 12-20-07, 03:25 PM	In the spirit of sleaziness and dubious tricks, I was considering giving Reginald Molehusband's cohort the spell Shrink Item and using it to shrink bonfires. According to the psionic power Control Flames (for instance), a 2'x2' bonfire does 4d6 damage (I suspect it's a typo and they mean a 2 square x 2 square bonfire). That's why Reginald's "at home" equipment lists "100,000 assorted clubs and quarterstaffs" (a.k.a. firewood). In the end, it was too dubious even for good, ol' Reg. :) Lol.. I guess it could also be nice to shrink a very large container full of water.. You could also rename it Istantaneous Flooding.. How many gallons would enter in a shrunk container of the size of a glass? I'd imagine a portable wall would still be pretty useful in some arenas. Shrinking a large-sized stone block down to tiny-size would make it portable, and you could effectively route an opponent...or give you more buffing time. [or break LoS] I'm not sure I'd be comfortable with someone using the spell to crush or burn an opponent, though :) Actually I'm waiting an opinion in the blackmarket thread on a similar idea, but with a statue. Nothing better than a huge smiling stone Garl Glittergold to break LoS. Or to be splatted to death. edit- Oddly, you could do this twice and then seal yourself away from your opponent in the sewers. Without a way to cast shrink item again, you'd have to wait until you or your opponent could sunder the stone blocks....what a "great" way to run out his buffs :-) Especially if you made them out of adamantine! [rich kid?] Wouldn't still apply the 10 rounds maximum for hiding? You'd be forced to crush your precious wall.. triple edit- whew. Wrought iron[not sure if that's what D&D uses, but whatever] weights about 480 lbs per square foot, so we're talking 48k gp for a 10x10x10 square of it. (and shrunk down they're still 120 lbs each- whew) That's still a stinking cool idea, though. That's a lot, but you could repair and re-use them.
hogarth 12-20-07, 03:49 PM	Forget adamantine, you'd only need iron. We know iron costs 1 sp per pound- how many pounds would a 10x10 block of iron weigh? at 30 hp per inch & hardness 15, we're talking thousands of hps worth of protection :) triple edit- whew. Wrought iron[not sure if that's what D&D uses, but whatever] weights about 480 lbs per square foot, so we're talking 48k gp for a 10x10x10 square of it. (and shrunk down they're still 120 lbs each- whew) That's still a stinking cool idea, though. Read the spell description -- you can only affect 2 cubic feet per level. I hope that at level 500 you have better spells to cast than Shrink Item. :D
McJarvis 12-20-07, 03:55 PM	Read the spell description -- you can only affect 2 cubic feet per level. I hope that at level 500 you have better spells to cast than Shrink Item. :D H'mph. I suppose shrinking the grates in the sewers will have to do.
McJarvis 12-20-07, 09:18 PM	Read the spell description -- you can only affect 2 cubic feet per level. I hope that at level 500 you have better spells to cast than Shrink Item. :D On second thought- I guess we can settle for a sheet that is 1 inch thick & 10 square feet otherwise. 10x10/12 = a more manageable amount. Double the thickness once you get to level 8/9 & get 60 hps of barrier out of it :)
Erithmu 12-21-07, 10:15 AM	Few questions here ... Does Falling Damage overcome DR of any type? Does a bless weapon effect over come the issue of incorporeality of Neutral or Good aligned creatures? Ie: can a blessed weapon have a 50/50 on a good aligned incorporeal creature?
McJarvis 12-21-07, 10:22 AM	Few questions here ... Does Falling Damage overcome DR of any type? no Does a bless weapon effect over come the issue of incorporeality of Neutral or Good aligned creatures? no
Elven_Hunter 12-21-07, 02:43 PM	Hi all, I'm Elven_Hunter, or for some of you, I'm Kaigan... but for some reason I can't access my old account. Anywho, I'm back after a long hiatus. I'll be rolling up some characters for next weeks pairings, and I'll read over the rules some more. I see that you may be in need of a pitlord or two, so in a couple of weeks, i'll take some fights, but not just yet. Have a good one, Elven_Hunter, aka Kaigan
Kaigan 12-21-07, 02:49 PM	Well, guess I remembered my password... Anyways... I'm back, and will get some characters up and running for next pairings, and in a couple of weeks I'll start pitlording again. Have a good one, Kaigan
MindWandererB 12-21-07, 04:04 PM	Welcome back! Yeah, a lot has changed, so be sure to ask questions if you have them. Many of the changes are listed at the beginning of the Council thread, but not all.
CrazyArtificer 12-22-07, 06:33 AM	Read the spell description -- you can only affect 2 cubic feet per level. I hope that at level 500 you have better spells to cast than Shrink Item. :D It's still quite a lot. I have to convert to meters and kgs to reason, forgive me :) Anyway, since shrink item minimum caster level is 5 that give us 10 cubic feet or 0.283 m3 Iron density is 7800 kg/m3. That means over 2200kgs of iron, or 4851 lbs. That's quite some iron to work with :) (and 24d6--->20d6 of falling damage from 20 ft) Note that shrunk it would just have a weight of 1.21 lbs
Salrantol 12-22-07, 07:12 AM	You can't share a spell from a potion, can you? I'm 99.99% sure you can't, but I've encountered some tactics that either the author is unaware of that fact, or I'm wrong, so I thought I'd make sure before I went too far with the fight.
lonewolf 12-22-07, 10:07 AM	no you cannot share a spell from a potion.
templer10 12-22-07, 11:10 AM	You can't share a spell from a potion, can you? I'm 99.99% sure you can't, but I've encountered some tactics that either the author is unaware of that fact, or I'm wrong, so I thought I'd make sure before I went too far with the fight. Like i said in my PM - A potion cant be shared but gear you carry DOES become invisible so if a psion is carrying his psicrystal in his pocket/backpack/whatever, it does become invisible.
templer10 12-22-07, 11:28 AM	Do temp HP from 2 diffrent sources - i.e - False life and Aid stack on each other?
lonewolf 12-22-07, 11:30 AM	Do temp HP from 2 diffrent sources - i.e - False life and Aid stack on each other? yes. Another topic: What is a gray Glutton? I dont find it either in the SRD, the Monster Manual or the Epic SRD. Am I blind or something?
templer10 12-22-07, 11:33 AM	yes. Another topic: What is a gray Glutton? I dont find it either in the SRD, the Monster Manual or the Epic SRD. Am I blind or something? Psionic monster
lonewolf 12-22-07, 11:36 AM	Psionic monster :blush: of course....
hogarth 12-22-07, 11:44 AM	Do temp HP from 2 diffrent sources - i.e - False life and Aid stack on each other? This place claims they don't: As with temporary hit points, temporary power points do not stack with each other; they overlap. Thus, if a mindfeeder weapon successfully scores a critical hit while the wielder still enjoys temporary power points from a previous critical hit, the wielder gains only the better of the two values: either her current number of temporary power points, or the new influx of temporary power points, whichever is higher.
Hirumajoe 12-22-07, 11:47 AM	Do temp HP from 2 diffrent sources - i.e - False life and Aid stack on each other? Yes, but you must track them separately. Take hitpoints from the oldest effect first. @Hogarth: The example you're giving is from the same effective source. Two applications of the same spell do not stack (per the spell stacking rules) and I guess that ruling was extended to the psionic weapons. Also energy drain bonus hp's don't stack with themselves either. So same sources = no. Different source = yes. Full FAQ answer below. Do temporary hit points from two applications of the same effect stack? What about from different effects? If I have temporary hit points from multiple sources, how should I apply damage? Temporary hit points from two applications of the same effect don’t stack; instead, the highest number of temporary hit points applies in place of all others. Temporary hit points from different sources stack, but you must keep track of them separately. For example, imagine a character who gained 15 temporary hit points from an aid spell. After taking 8 points of damage, she has 7 temporary hit points left from the spell. If another aid spell were cast on the same character granting 12 temporary hit points, this total would replace the other spell’s total, meaning the character would now have 12 temporary hit points (rather than 19). If the character then cast false life on herself, she would add the full benefit of that spell to the temporary hit points from the aid spell. This also applies to temporary hit points gained from energy drain and similar special abilities. Each successful attack counts as one application of the effect (meaning that an attack that bestows 2 or more negative levels still counts as only one application of the effect). For example, a wight gains 5 temporary hit points each time it bestows a negative level with its slam attack. If it bestows another negative level while it has 2 temporary hit points remaining from the first attack, the new temporary hit points would replace the old ones. Temporary hit points are “first-in, first-out.” Damage should be taken off the oldest temporary-hit-point-granting effect first; when that effect is exhausted, apply damage to the next oldest effect. For this reason, you must track each supply of temporary hit points separately.
lonewolf 12-22-07, 11:56 AM	just to be sure: If you get SR from 2 different sources(such as the halfcelestial gray glutton with PR 20 and SR 19) only the better one counts, right?
templer10 12-22-07, 12:35 PM	just to be sure: If you get SR from 2 different sources(such as the halfcelestial gray glutton with PR 20 and SR 19) only the better one counts, right? yes
Salrantol 12-22-07, 03:32 PM	Like i said in my PM - A potion cant be shared but gear you carry DOES become invisible so if a psion is carrying his psicrystal in his pocket/backpack/whatever, it does become invisible.But a psicrystal's not just gear, a psicrystal is another creature. Could a high-level psionicist use a heavily-augmented Compression to get pocket-sized for a free invisibility?
whitebaron 12-22-07, 03:39 PM	But a psicrystal's not just gear, a psicrystal is another creature. Could a high-level psionicist use a heavily-augmented Compression to get pocket-sized for a free invisibility? well, i'd say that this is possible, but there are constraints to be added, as well. as you don't see anything. you can't cast or help. - in this case, i'd say you don't get the skill bonuses (alertness, and whatever the crystal is specialised in) and other useful features from your psicristal. expending focus should work, though.
MindWandererB 12-22-07, 08:35 PM	Actually--the RotG doesn't make a distinction between potions, wands, etc. when it comes to sharing. You and your animal companion can share effects from magic items only if the effect is a spell that you can target on yourself. That's the only restriction. Since all potions fall under that description (by definition), they can be shared. I think it's silly, but that's what it says. Otherwise, no, the psicrystal cannot be considered gear for this purpose. It's a creature, even if you stuff it in your clothes.
Hirumajoe 12-22-07, 09:03 PM	Actually--the RotG doesn't make a distinction between potions, wands, etc. when it comes to sharing. That's the only restriction. Since all potions fall under that description (by definition), they can be shared. I think it's silly, but that's what it says. Otherwise, no, the psicrystal cannot be considered gear for this purpose. It's a creature, even if you stuff it in your clothes. You're going to hate me for bringing this up... But what about intelligent magic items? When a character drinks a potion of invisibility, does his intelligent sword become invisible as well or not? For the psicrystal case, would it matter if its activated its self-propulsion or not? But this is all a moot point probably. I think most people would agree that a psicrystal inside a backpack or in a closed pocket has total concealment anyways, irregardless of whether the main character is invisible or not.
MindWandererB 12-22-07, 11:50 PM	You're going to hate me for bringing this up... But what about intelligent magic items? When a character drinks a potion of invisibility, does his intelligent sword become invisible as well or not? For the psicrystal case, would it matter if its activated its self-propulsion or not? But this is all a moot point probably. I think most people would agree that a psicrystal inside a backpack or in a closed pocket has total concealment anyways, irregardless of whether the main character is invisible or not. I hate the intelligent magic item rules. They simply don't work. But they're considered to be both items and creatures (but not objects), so they'd become invisible. And actually, I would argue that a psicrystal in the closed pocket of an invisible character wouldn't have concealment. Total cover, but not concealment.
Hirumajoe 12-23-07, 12:50 PM	Ok, different question: Valen Sky has reported to the prison, but I'm not sure if part of the violation is correct. Templer10 has indicated Psionic PRCs count for purposes of Psicrystal abilities. While this would be a nice boost for Valen, I was under the impression they don't (or at least that was the rules we used here - I know there's a very large debate on whether they do or not). Although in this case, I believe an explicit do not (from the Slayer rules) overrides the do (from the Psicrystal rules). Anyone care to comment? Thanks. Powers Known Beginning at 2nd level, a slayer gains additional power points per day and access to new powers as if she had also gained a level in whatever manifesting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (bonus feats, metapsionic or item creation feats, psicrystal special abilities, and so on). This essentially means that she adds the level of slayer to the level of whatever manifesting class the character has, then determines power points per day, powers known, and manifester level accordingly. Psicrystal abilities are based on the owner’s levels in psionic classes. Levels from other classes do not count toward the owner’s level for purposes of psicrystal abilities.
hogarth 12-23-07, 01:08 PM	Also note the following Courtroom decision: Q: How are psicrystals handled in CoCo? A: Psicrystals are treated as the psionic equivalent to familiars. In any circumstance where the psicrystal rules are ambiguous or can be interpreted in more than one way, the corresponding rules for familiars are then used for clarification.
CrazyArtificer 12-24-07, 06:09 AM	I'm asking just to be sure of avoiding mistakes: If I'm at level 4 and I have 3k gp can I craft a headband of intellect +2, provided that I learn Fox's cunning? Is there any limit on the amount of money you can spend on a single (magic) item at a given level?
hogarth 12-24-07, 06:40 AM	I'm asking just to be sure of avoiding mistakes: If I'm at level 4 and I have 3k gp can I craft a headband of intellect +2, provided that I learn Fox's cunning? Is there any limit on the amount of money you can spend on a single (magic) item at a given level? Yes, you can craft a headband of intellect as a Full Activity if you know Fox's Cunning and you have the Craft Wondrous Item feat. There's no limit on spending. For instance, various level 3 characters have spent all of their starting cash on a 3000 gp Bag of Tricks. And there's a level 4 character who bought a 10,000 gp Bronze Griffon (slightly discounted).
CrazyArtificer 12-24-07, 06:43 AM	I guess to craft items with odd bonuses to abilities you need credits, right?
hogarth 12-24-07, 08:21 AM	I guess to craft items with odd bonuses to abilities you need credits, right? Yes, you can only cheat have access to extra options if you spend credits or if you use Gather Information.
Book5 12-24-07, 07:20 PM	Yes, you can only cheat have access to extra options if you spend credits or if you use Gather Information. Aww.. cmon ..this is not "cheating" ... is it? :smirk: Horn, Avengers This ornately decorated horn is a master work musical instrument in addition to it's other abilities. A Bard gains an additional +4 enhancement bonus to perform checks made with the horn. In addition to being a miraculously good sounding instrument that fits perfectly to any player and never requires maintenance the horn has a special power in the hands of a Paladin. A Paladin trained in perform may use a move action to play the horn and gain the benifits of the horn's true powers. While playing and for 5 rounds after stopping playing a Paladin may access the class features of a class that requires a chaotic alignment (such as Barbarian Rage or Bardic Magic). Abilities and spells with a duration that lasts longer than the duration of the horn's powers are not ended prematurly. Strong Enchantment; CL 16th; Craft Wondrous Item, Geas/Quest and Heroism, Greater; Price * gp; Weight 2 lb. Not ... exactly certain what that would cost, but ...
TelinArtho 12-25-07, 01:13 AM	That particular item would never be approved. The only part of it that is a problem is the special power - which is just unpriceable. In a campaign, I might find a way to work the item in - but in an environment like the CoCo - it would not be priceable just because there is no mechanic for it.
CrazyArtificer 12-25-07, 10:18 AM	Just a line to wish a wonderful Christmas to everyone on this board!
CrazyArtificer 12-25-07, 01:00 PM	Question: what's the CR of an Elite Guard Dog? 1?
hogarth 12-25-07, 02:16 PM	Question: what's the CR of an Elite Guard Dog? 1? I think we ruled that we round up for fractional CRs greater than 1. The druid Little Daisy had an advanced eagle buddy in the same situation. Personally, I don't have any problem with a CR of 1.33 or 2.5 myself.
Stormwind 12-25-07, 08:06 PM	I've been thinking about traps in the CoCo and I have some questions for discussion (I have noted my thoughts below each question, but I would appreciate further feedback/comments): Can incorporeal creatures craft or use traps? As far as I can tell, all that is required by RAW is that a PC has ranks in the appropriate skills. Since the actual mechanism of crafting is not really specified (e.g. the 'crafter' could design the item and then let his/her apprentice, or an NPC crafter, do the actual work), I would be inclined to say that incorporeal creatures can craft traps. Furthermore, going by the RAW, I can't find anything that would prevent an incorporeal character from setting a trap. What if they have some way to interact with their environment (ghost telekinesis, mage hand, prestigitation, etc)? This would seem to be the 'common sense' solution, but I can't find anything in RAW that would require this. What about tools for an incorporeal crafter? Would standard tools (or masterwork tools), work for an incorporeal crafter? Again I can't find anything in RAW that would disallow this. If anyone has comments on this, I would love to hear other thoughts. Storm P.S. Merry X-mas and good luck in the new year to everyone :D
Hirumajoe 12-25-07, 11:17 PM	Actually, I think the incorporeality description is pretty explicit. Incorporeality Spectres, wraiths, and a few other creatures lack physical bodies. Such creatures are insubstantial and can’t be touched by nonmagical matter or energy. Likewise, they cannot manipulate objects or exert physical force on objects. Incorporeal creatures cannot manipulate objects. I can in no way conceive how crafting or setting a trap does not require its manipulation. Similarly, using a tool generally means manipulating it. In regards to spell effects allowing you to do so: As I read telekinesis, I find the following: An object can be telekinetically manipulated as if with one hand. For example, a lever or rope can be pulled, a key can be turned, an object rotated, and so on, if the force required is within the weight limitation. You might even be able to untie simple knots, though delicate activities such as these require Intelligence checks. This suggests delicate craftsmanship would be beyond the scope of the spell. You can't even use the Use Rope skill to full effect (i.e. complex knots) let alone craft a set of full platemail with intricate interlocking metal parts. Similarly Mage hand can only move objects, not manipulate them. Prestidigitation can only move, clean or soil them in any permanent way. On the other hand, if you had bought a trap, they in principle would let you bring it to the arena. But that still leaves the process of setting it. Telekinesis might let you do that, but neither Mage hand or Prestidigitation would. Getting a corporeal creature to do the work for you only goes so far when you are the one with the skill. I believe the Aid Another rules cover having one creature helping another with a skill roll, which nets the one doing the work a +2 bonus. And if you can hire a character to do the crafting for you, why isn't every fighter type hiring an expert NPC for a few weeks to craft their mithril full plate at half cost? Sorry to be so down on the idea, but if an incorporeal character were to walk up to me as a DM and ask for this, the above would be my answer. Of course, this is the CoCo, so you may get a different official answer. :) And Merry Christmas.
Hirumajoe 12-26-07, 12:29 AM	So Valen Sky has 22,260 gp burning a hole in his pocket and I'm considering various options. Custom Ring of Silence 4/day: Takes care of the Move Silent checks or acts as a nice counterspell against Wizards, Sorcerers, Clerics, Druids. Can put it on my psicrystal for more "free" action fun. (8640 gp) Custom item (ring/rod/other?) of See Invisibility 1/day: Useful on large open maps such as the Plains or City. Dirt Cheap at only 1800*3*2/5 = 2160 gp. Bow upgrades: Additional +1 Enhancement and Seeking (Ignore concealment) - handy for my eversmoking bottle escapades - don't need to throw up touchsight to negate the concealment. Or maybe just raw damage (+5 damage from collision (+2 modifier)) (net difference 16,000 gp) Ring of Invisibility: Seems kind of redundant, but does allow for virtually guaranteed first strikes. 20,000 gp Save for a big ticket item? (I admit, having seen Psibeast in action with Skin of Proteus has given me some strange notions... Unlimited healing from such a skin strikes me as not a bad option at all. Plus pre-buffed monster forms of up to 7 HD.) Or maybe save for a 28,500 gp Obsidian steed (or perhaps a custom variant which instead dumps evil characters on the upper planes...). The ability to enter the Ethereal plane would make Ghosts *much* easier, since they'd lose their deflection bonuses and 50% miss chance. Admittedly, you only get 10 rounds to take them out, but in principle it should be alot easier. Out of curiosity, what would be the CR penalty for bringing a pre-buffed Obsidian steed? Just that of a Heavy Warhorse, or higher because it has spell-like abilities? Is there any penalty at all? Thanks for any suggestions or comments. :)
hogarth 12-26-07, 08:33 AM	Out of curiosity, what would be the CR penalty for bringing a pre-buffed Obsidian steed? Just that of a Heavy Warhorse, or higher because it has spell-like abilities? Is there any penalty at all? I asked this on two separate occasions, and the only answer I ever got was "More than a heavy warhorse". :)
Vathelokai 12-26-07, 08:50 AM	General Note: My apologies for dropping off the face of the earth. I shall be getting my affairs in order after I get off work today (~10 hours after this post).
dulsi 12-26-07, 12:30 PM	Did much change with the Mind Flayer (Monster Manual version) in 3.5 from 3.0? Mainly looking at it's Mind Blast power. If someone could PM me the stats or major differences that would be great. (Not CoCo related but Telin suggested you guys could get me a quick response.)
lonewolf 12-26-07, 12:37 PM	*looking for 3.0 MM* ... Mind Flayers are pretty much identical. The only change I can see at first glance is that they lost their astral projection psionic power. Mind blast, and all of its major abilities are unchanged.
Durzulgor 12-26-07, 04:02 PM	last week at our gaming session lonewolf or whitebaron brought up, that a pearl of power can also be used to bring back power points instead of spell levels, is that correct? And if so: Does it "bring back" power points or give you a source of 3pps that you can use to manifest something?
TelinArtho 12-26-07, 04:05 PM	See the Psionic SRD, Items. Treat in all ways as a cognizance crystal with power point capacity appropriate to the equivalent power level
MindWandererB 12-26-07, 04:10 PM	last week at our gaming session lonewolf or whitebaron brought up, that a pearl of power can also be used to bring back power points instead of spell levels, is that correct? And if so: Does it "bring back" power points or give you a source of 3pps that you can use to manifest something? Treat in all ways as a cognizance crystal with power point capacity appropriate to the equivalent power levelSo a level 2 PoP is also a 3-PP Cognizance Crystal.
Vath 12-26-07, 11:32 PM	Ho, there... for some reason I'm having trouble with my login. I'll be using this account until I figure it out.
The Dread Dormammu 12-27-07, 03:08 AM	I assume that if you want to use your familiar as a mount you follow the same rules as with other intelligent mounts like Giant Owls and Eagles. Is this correct? From the SRD: Although intelligent, an [intelligent mount] requires training before it can bear a rider in combat. To be trained, an [intelligent mount] must have a friendly attitude toward the trainer (this can be achieved through a successful Diplomacy check). Training a friendly [intelligent mount] requires six weeks of work and a DC 25 Handle Animal check. Riding an [intelligent mount]requires an exotic saddle. An [intelligent mount] can fight while carrying a rider, but the rider cannot also attack unless he or she succeeds on a Ride check. Also, how much do Professional trainers charge for this service?
Salrantol 12-27-07, 02:38 PM	Is there any cost for changing an existing item to a different, still associated slot? For example, a cloak of natural armor +1. Both amulets and cloaks are associated with protection, so it's still an associated slot. Or bracers of protection +1, changed from a ring to a "combat"-associated slot. So would both still be 2000 gp?
lonewolf 12-27-07, 02:45 PM	Is there any cost for changing an existing item to a different, still associated slot? For example, a cloak of natural armor +1. Both amulets and cloaks are associated with protection, so it's still an associated slot. Or bracers of protection +1, changed from a ring to a "combat"-associated slot. So would both still be 2000 gp? yes It is considered a custom Item though and thus costs 5 credits extra.(see blackmarket for details)
hogarth 12-27-07, 04:48 PM	If a Rod of Wonder creates 10-40 1 gp gems in an arena fight, does the wielder of the rod get to keep them? :D
TelinArtho 12-27-07, 05:01 PM	If a Rod of Wonder creates 10-40 1 gp gems in an arena fight, does the wielder of the rod get to keep them? :D Nope - they are distributed evenly among the wealthy members of the crowd.
lonewolf 12-28-07, 07:53 AM	I havent really worked that much with allies so Im not very firm with the rules on them: What does it cost(credit and/or gp) to have a feat of an purchased ally changed? In particular, I´d like to buy a Heavy Warhorse with Fleet of Foot instead of Endurance.
lonewolf 12-28-07, 07:57 AM	If a RotG article directly contradicts normal RAW, which one should be used?
CrazyArtificer 12-28-07, 07:59 AM	I'd go with common sense.. if the RotG makes more sense than the RAW, go for it. Otherwise just ignore it.
templer10 12-28-07, 08:03 AM	I havent really worked that much with allies so Im not very firm with the rules on them: What does it cost(credit and/or gp) to have a feat of an purchased ally changed? In particular, I´d like to buy a Heavy Warhorse with Fleet of Foot instead of Endurance. you can't anymore - that option was removed, What you can do with purchesed allies is to change skill points and make them Elite (+1 CR, 5 credits). only leadership allies can be fully customized.
whitebaron 12-28-07, 08:18 AM	If a RotG article directly contradicts normal RAW, which one should be used? as this is usually the case, why do we even go with rotg? :)
TelinArtho 12-28-07, 08:53 AM	In general, you should only use RotG when the situation isn't fully covered/explained in the SRD/FAQ. Then, only then, should you turn to the RotG. Anything that the RotG articles add to the rules should be wholly ignored (thinking here of the bonus to resisting trips for aeriel opponents based on maneuverability as an example), but anything that clarifies without contradiction is reasonable. Before using RotG as a basis - you should probably check within the community first.
CrazyArtificer 12-28-07, 09:56 AM	I am considering going on a quest with Uranedal next week.. is there anyone else willing to join me?
TelinArtho 12-28-07, 10:05 AM	Any particular purpose behind it? Darrgon (my conjurer) and Vallgar (my necromancer) would both be allowed to travel with your wizard (not Berri - pesky paladins...). Darrgon's crafting this upcoming week though - so he'd have to wait. Do you have a questlord?
CrazyArtificer 12-28-07, 10:16 AM	Not yet.. I'm going to write my background today and then see what I come up as a purpose. I'm waiting to contact a questlord until I have at least a general idea of what to quest for :) Seeing that you have 2 wizards available we could be on quest for a particular item or spellbook... maybe necromancy or conjuration focused, depending on who you want to bring. EDIT: I completed my background. A third option for a quest is to look for an exceptionally good looking marble, with veins of several different colors, to be found only in the mountains of XYZ. Uranedal would like to use this marble to craft his masterpiece, a statue of tremendous beauty (for Uranedal' standards)
TelinArtho 12-28-07, 10:59 AM	May I ask why is it suspended? I love a few mercenaries in that thread, I planned to use at least a couple in the future fights.. I'm still low level though. I'll follow your advice and try to start a bit of roleplaying.. let's see what happens. Since this is away from the topic in the council, I figured I would take the time to move it here. The guild game was suspended for a variety of reasons: 1. It was largely a game for a select group of the CoCo (myself, Zevox (gone), Erithmu, MWB, TM/McJ) with a few "lackeys" who performed in the quests/missions. I personally was included only when Cat left and only because no one else was willing to take up the reins. 2. Despite being a game for the select group, it had consumed many of the resources for the regular CoCo - mostly in the form of questlords and, to a lesser extent, pitlords. Since you can see how few pitlords we have now - you can guess that we were having trouble staying out of a SOE back then too. Essentially though, the guild game was consuming resources for the regular CoCo that it was never meant to consume. What's worse is that a few of the people involved (myself specifically) only did it in order to keep the game going (and specifically not because I enjoyed it - I actually rather disliked it). On the roleplaying note - I hope you are able to help promote it here. It is tough to roleplay without interaction - but with some gentle prodding or some great lead-ins it can spark something quite well. As for mercenaries - I will remind everyone that if you want to see more mercs in the system - please let me know which specific ones so that I can audit them and hopefully approve them. There are a number I would like to see added to the roster, but since I am the person in charge there - I am waiting for others to speak up...
CrazyArtificer 12-28-07, 11:12 AM	Since this is away from the topic in the council, I figured I would take the time to move it here. The guild game was suspended for a variety of reasons: 1. It was largely a game for a select group of the CoCo (myself, Zevox (gone), Erithmu, MWB, TM/McJ) with a few "lackeys" who performed in the quests/missions. I personally was included only when Cat left and only because no one else was willing to take up the reins. 2. Despite being a game for the select group, it had consumed many of the resources for the regular CoCo - mostly in the form of questlords and, to a lesser extent, pitlords. Since you can see how few pitlords we have now - you can guess that we were having trouble staying out of a SOE back then too. Essentially though, the guild game was consuming resources for the regular CoCo that it was never meant to consume. What's worse is that a few of the people involved (myself specifically) only did it in order to keep the game going (and specifically not because I enjoyed it - I actually rather disliked it). I understand.. so the problem is designing an alternative guild or guild-like system which won't absorb as much resources.. Is there anything upcoming or it's just frozen?
TelinArtho 12-28-07, 11:22 AM	The Living Communities add-on will hopefully work out better for this - I can't comment on it really since I haven't had the time to invest into reading all about it - though I'm sure others could add their own perceptions. As for using resources, the fact of the matter is that any addon will use resources. Until the CoCo returns to a more flourishing state, I don't know that we will ever have a surplus of resources to make use of.
hogarth 12-28-07, 11:40 AM	I understand.. so the problem is designing an alternative guild or guild-like system which won't absorb as much resources.. Is there anything upcoming or it's just frozen? The problem (if you consider it a problem) is the CoCo is divided into three categories of player: Those who don't care about roleplaying at all Those who are somewhat interested, as long as it's not too much work Those who are very interested So any system of guilds (or Living Gladius, or whatever) should allow player #1 to ignore it, be simple enough to interest player #2, and be complex enough to interest player #3. From what I've seen of the Living Gladius stuff so far, I kind of like the idea of different types of battles (King of the Hill, Monster Fight, Capture the Flag, whatever) although I suspect it will mean that fewer characters will be activated for the arena and some leagues are pretty thin as it is. I'm a bit cool on the zillion different kinds of points you can allocate.
whitebaron 12-28-07, 11:43 AM	i'd be ready to take your quest for wherever you want to go. ;) about more roleplaying: i see some restrictions about quests that i don't like, so i'll simply ask about them now: a) you can only go on a quest once per level. i feel this is just not right. if a player wants to quest much, there's nothing you can do to stop him - it was missions (free quests ordered by your guildmaster) to circumvent this when the guild game was still running, and now you could just make more characters. b) quests at lower crs seem to have been abandoned. i don't get why. let 4 ecl 3 characters hunt a cr 1 wolf, it will be much more fun and RP than you'll get if they need to kill a CR 7 dragon. and their rewards will be 75 xp/gp each, who cares? :) as for miniquests, they need to stay ECL=CR. everything else would be unfair. but if a quest is started outside 3fc, there's not really a reason why you could not lower the CR.
Stormwind 12-28-07, 11:49 AM	Basically there are two (currently separate) add-ons that are existing/planned for enhancing RP: The Community of Gladius is still currently under construction, although it seems to be approaching completion. The Guildhall of Gladius is currently suspended, however Roleplay may still continue in the various guild threads: - The Celestial Expeditionary Forces (CEF) - East Habari Trading Company (EHTC) - The Warfare Alliance (WAR) - The Psi Consortium (PSI) - The Arcane Order (TAO) - The Living Tree (TLT) As someone who was involved in the 'guild game' (running two separate guilds for a time), I would very much like to see the guilds kept (although not in their current form) because it was a superb platform for RP. Unfortunately, the rules of the 'guild game' made it unwieldy at best and as Telin stated it absorbed far too much in the way of resources from the CoCo.
TelinArtho 12-28-07, 12:10 PM	i'd be ready to take your quest for wherever you want to go. ;) about more roleplaying: i see some restrictions about quests that i don't like, so i'll simply ask about them now: a) you can only go on a quest once per level. i feel this is just not right. if a player wants to quest much, there's nothing you can do to stop him - it was missions (free quests ordered by your guildmaster) to circumvent this when the guild game was still running, and now you could just make more characters. b) quests at lower crs seem to have been abandoned. i don't get why. let 4 ecl 3 characters hunt a cr 1 wolf, it will be much more fun and RP than you'll get if they need to kill a CR 7 dragon. and their rewards will be 75 xp/gp each, who cares? :) as for miniquests, they need to stay ECL=CR. everything else would be unfair. but if a quest is started outside 3fc, there's not really a reason why you could not lower the CR. a and b here are kind of tied together. a) We only allow a character to quest once per level because we don't want to allow someone to completely circumvent the arena either on the short term or in the long term. That said, if you quest at your ECL or higher - you will either advance with every quest or close to every quest. b) allowing someone to quest multiple times per level with an EL < ECL of the character allows someone to advance, risk free without fighting in the arena. That said - you can go on quests at a lower EL than your ECL - but just once per level (unless I am misremembering - which is always a possibility). Combine the two together - and add in a character designed to be super weak to start (say a venerable druid at ECL3 with all negative mods in the physical stats) - who quests versus EL1 encounters to survive his way into the leagues where he can survive reasonably. On a completely separate note, quests do use resources - so they are not wanted exclusively. If the majority of the characters quest all of the time, there are even fewer characters in the regular arena - which in turn means the arena characters are in smaller leagues which in turn might lead to attrition of the population...
lonewolf 12-28-07, 12:28 PM	Now that I have both tactics I can discuss my problems with them openly: Incorporeal creatures cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can they be tripped or grappled. Incorporeal Against Incorporeal Incorporeal creatures can interact physically with each other -- at least as much as that is possible for creatures that lack physical bodies. They can attack each other without an incorporeal miss chance and they can attempt certain special attacks against each other, as noted here. Grappling: You can resolve grapple attempts using the rules on pages 155-157 of the Player's Handbook, except that an incorporeal creature uses its Charisma modifier instead of its Strength modifier when it makes a grapple check. Remember that grappling combat begins with an initial grab attempt, not a grapple check. When one incorporeal creature tries to grab another, it makes a melee touch attack and uses its Dexterity modifier for the attack. Also I need a ruling if Telekinesis can be used to grapple an incorporeal creature. Unlike the psionic Telekinetic Maneuver, Telekinesis is not a Force effect, so even if it works there will be that 50% miss chance.
TelinArtho 12-28-07, 12:43 PM	Well - that's a big ole' mess... If the method chosen for the grapple (Telekinesis) is not a force effect, it is subject to the 50% miss chance and has a 50% chance of being negated on any subsequent round (so even if the grapple is successful, it might be auto-negated the following round). I'm not completely sure it would even work against an incorporeal foe, but for certain, grapple damage is subdual damage - so unless the opponent is subject to subdual damage - I'm not sure what the point is for the grapple in the first place.
lonewolf 12-28-07, 12:57 PM	There are actually two seperate but related problems: - Varjo wants her shadow allies to grapple Solistice(ghost) and then attack Solistice herself with her ghost touch dagger. - Solistice wants to use Telekinesis to grapple Varjo and then use Varjos ghost touch dagger against her in this grapple. And yeah, its a big mess...
hogarth 12-28-07, 01:19 PM	If the method chosen for the grapple (Telekinesis) is not a force effect, it is subject to the 50% miss chance and has a 50% chance of being negated on any subsequent round (so even if the grapple is successful, it might be auto-negated the following round). Note that incoporeal creatures have a 50% chance to ignore damage from a spell; they don't have a 50% chance to completely ignore all spell effects, just the damaging bits. What seems sensible to me is to allow incorporeal grappling for this fight (since both sides assumed it was possible) but to get a permanent ruling later.
Salrantol 12-28-07, 01:29 PM	Even when struck by magic or magic weapons, an incorporeal creature has a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source — except for a force effect or damage dealt by a ghost touch weapon.Emphasis mine.
lonewolf 12-28-07, 01:30 PM	Well, Stormwind assumes that normal grapple works and Telekinetic grapple doesnt...
hogarth 12-28-07, 01:35 PM	Well, Stormwind assumes that normal grapple works and Telekinetic grapple doesnt... Really? The description for TK grapple says "Resolve attempts as normal, except [stuff that has nothing to do with incorporeality]". So either normal attempts work or they don't (in my opinion).
CrazyArtificer 12-28-07, 01:38 PM	@hogart. I basically agree with your player categories. I understand that the CoCo environment will likely attract more type 1 players than similar forums, but we should still work on type #2 and #3.. in the long run I believe the latter categories will tend to abandon the arena, if Gladius comes down to the arena itself without anything else. What's exactly Living Gladius? @whitebaron. TelinArtho summarized pretty well the need for limits on quests.. however I'd like to see the credits requirement lifted, as it would add more option to the players without need to turn them into pitlords for questing. @Stormwind. Community of Gladius seems interesting, but it's quite a mess to read as it is now.. Do we really have to constantly keep everything on the forum? Such a work would be better if hosted on a separate website or in .pdf format (free hosting exists) Guild rules could be simplified. For example forget about all the rest and state guild income is 5% of all the gold earned by guild members that week. The guild could then invest in certain addons which would give the members certain fixed benefits. Fight between guilds would be handled by several arena challenges and such.. just throwing out ideas.
lonewolf 12-28-07, 02:01 PM	@Roleplaying: I would consider myself a type 2 player under those definitions. The problem I see at the moment is that everything roleplaying related that is more than normal in character posting in a thread(quests/campaigns/guild-fights/Community-fights) drains ressources from the normal Arena. There is a drain of pitlords and IMHO more importantly a drain on characters that dont compete in the arena but instead do other things. At the moment we have the situation that the normal fight roster is very thin and if there are even fewer active characters available for normal fights, ~75% of all fights ECL6 or higher will be monster fights or constant rematches because there are no other enemies. If you look at the fight roster 1 or 2 years back there were 2-2.5 times the fights spread over 66% the leagues. => Much more diversity. I sincerely hope that 4E will bring a bunch of new players(and some old player) into CoCo, otherwise the slow decline that is going on for some time now will kill CoCo slowly but surely. IF we have more players and fuller leagues, I am all for additional options, quests/campaigns/etc. But with the momentary number of active players this is just not a good idea.
CrazyArtificer 12-28-07, 02:14 PM	I think that a part of the difficulty in finding new players may come from a steep learning curve. To start a game here you need to figure out a lot of things, and even if you follow the rules thread pretty strictly, you still have to track the courtroom and that's not easy. Furthermore, the default character sheet is very detailed and takes a lot of time (and cannot be changed, obviously) The Quickstart guide should probably be updated and given more relevance, if we want more players.
The Dread Dormammu 12-28-07, 02:17 PM	Snaga would love to join your quest (a band of Wizards!). But I think that he has to wait to finish his 3 fight cycle before he can quest. Am I right?
whitebaron 12-28-07, 02:22 PM	Combine the two together - and add in a character designed to be super weak to start (say a venerable druid at ECL3 with all negative mods in the physical stats) - who quests versus EL1 encounters to survive his way into the leagues where he can survive reasonably. well, how's that different to credit usage to start at higher levels? i don't see the problem here, except the drain on pitlords. therefore, i think it would be better to do a player-quest limit rather than a character-quest-limit. @tdd: you're right. you can only quest for a full 3fc. but i'm sure they'll wait for you for 1-2 weeks. :)
TelinArtho 12-28-07, 02:24 PM	@whitebaron. TelinArtho summarized pretty well the need for limits on quests.. however I'd like to see the credits requirement lifted, as it would add more option to the players without need to turn them into pitlords for questing. Just to address this specifically - I want to dispel the myth that a player must become a pitlord in order to have a few credits for occasional use. Most items that are commonly used that cost credits range in price from 1 credit (an extra active character in a particular week) up to around 5 credits (to start a character at ECL4, buying most minor custom magic items (+1 stat boosters for instance)). A full quest is a 3 week, 1 credit/week cost. 3 credits. You automatically get 1 credit every birthday. You also get a credit for submitting a photo to scribelords to increase the size of the gallery. Pitlording a fight will net you 1 credit - but if you don't want to do that: Questlording earns you 2 credits per week. Campaignlording earns you 3 credits per week. Don't feel comfortable with that? How about being a narc for the prison. At 3 violations per credit - it is easy to look through a few character sheets and find a few errors. Audits, though time intensive, are still the "most efficient" source of credits (though they are not often done nor done correctly). Of course, there's also writing stories for fights for 1 credit a piece (2 if scribelords feels it is a work of great quality) and even some admin work from time to time.
CrazyArtificer 12-28-07, 02:28 PM	Uranedal opened the door, slowly, and stepped inside the not-so-crowded tavern. He looked at the other customers while walking towards the barman. "A pint of your best beer, good man" The barman quickly served the beer to Uranedal, which started drinking and wondering if he could find someone strong enough to assist him in his search. Among the people drinking and eating at the tables he was able to see a couple of guys with big swords layed on the table. A few others were dressed like students. One had a strange rod which he kept jumping from one hand to another. One customer looked like busy in studying the others like Uranedal was doing.. perhaps trying to understand who was the perfect target for a robbery? Uranedal stopped a moment thinking. He couldn't travel to the mountains on its own. The travel was too perilous for a single gnome. He cleared his voice and started shouting. Is it still possible to find a few courageous men in this tavern? Someone who's willing to test his prowess without money to tempt him? Let's try to gather a party for a quest in-game :) If you have problems with looking for special marble, PM me with your ideas about a possible quest item/purpose. If you are a QL and would like to run the quest, let me know.
TelinArtho 12-28-07, 02:36 PM	A figure in a hooded cloak approaches the gnome, walking unsteadily, unnaturally towards him. The figure pulls out a chair and offers it to the gnome. The figure then pulls down his cloak's hood - revealing the empty face of a skeleton beneath. The skeleton's mouth is moving, but no words are sounded. Excuse me - my friend here wanted to say courage is not in the hands of men. That said - Turon here would not be tempted by money - as he is a skeleton and has no need for such triffles. The newcomer bows courteously and then offers a hand in greeting. I am Vallgar of the house of Feranor in the northlands. Perhaps Turon and I could find you the courage of which you speak, small one.
CrazyArtificer 12-28-07, 02:52 PM	Uranedal shake hand with the strange man in front of him. "It's a pleasure, Vallgar of the house of Feranor. My name is Uranedal, and I come from the Northlands too". Then, sitting on the chair slowly, answers "It's you too big, not me too small."Smiling, he continues "and you certainly have a strange companion, sir. What brought you here to Gladius from the Northerlands?"
TelinArtho 12-28-07, 03:04 PM	Vallgar's eyes dart back and forth cautiously. Turon gives him a look and then storms out the front door. Forgive Turon - he's nervous about possible spies at every corner. Ever since we left Norderstahl - he has not rested easily. Not once. I fear for his health really... Vallgar drifts off with a concerned look on his face. He then goes over to the window to check on his skeleton and is pleased to find Turon standing just outside of the tavern. Opening the door, he ushers the skeleton back inside and seats him in a booth nearby. Seriously, if there were spies around - you really shouldn't be standing wide out in the open like that. Think before you act my friend - Think!.
Stormwind 12-28-07, 03:20 PM	@Stormwind. Community of Gladius seems interesting, but it's quite a mess to read as it is now.. Do we really have to constantly keep everything on the forum? Such a work would be better if hosted on a separate website or in .pdf format (free hosting exists) Guild rules could be simplified. For example forget about all the rest and state guild income is 5% of all the gold earned by guild members that week. The guild could then invest in certain addons which would give the members certain fixed benefits. Fight between guilds would be handled by several arena challenges and such.. just throwing out ideas. I think the Community of Gladius has the possibility of bringing a lot of flavour to the CoCo. We'll have to see how it all works out. One of the best things about the guilds (In my opinion) was that they encouraged a significant amount of RP through miniquests and quests. If we were to rebuild the 'guild game' I would suggest that we focus on this in such a fashion as to minimize the impact of guilds on the CoCo, in particular so that there is minimal requirements for bookkeeping or administrative duties. One possibility would be to simplify them as platforms for RP only. This could be done quite simply by removing all the rules for guilds except for the miniquest requirement to join. Of course I believe that something should then be put in place to encourage guild based RP, perhaps: guild quests do not cost credits if at least 2 guild members participate on the quest (this would be to avoid a drain on pitlords) guild campaigns do not cost credits if at least 3 guild members participate on the campaign. Guild campaigns are also limited to 5 weeks in duration. (this is to avoid a drain on pitlords and to prevent campaigns from taking characters out of circulation for too long) characters on guild quests and campaigns may be from one or more guilds
The Dread Dormammu 12-28-07, 03:27 PM	A Human Man approaches, at first glance he seems to be a paladin clad in gleaming armor. On closer inspection though, it becomes apparent that he is no ordinary Paladin, successful spot checks reveal that he wears his sword upside down, his halberd is tucked impossibly into his greaves, and his armor seems to be… missing hinges? The rudest shock comes when he is within speaking distance: he’s not even 5 feet tall! The Paladin fixes his cold gray eyes on Uranedal. Running a hand through his close-cropped salt and pepper hair, he speaks in a booming voice. "Forgive me, I couldn't resist the temptation to interrupt. Whenever I see fellow students of the Arcane discussing a voyage my interest is piqued." the Disguise self spell unravels and the two soon see a goblin Wizard standing before them, scrolls are sticking every which way out of his pack and his spell pouch is a mess.
Stormwind 12-28-07, 03:35 PM	Really? The description for TK grapple says "Resolve attempts as normal, except [stuff that has nothing to do with incorporeality]". So either normal attempts work or they don't (in my opinion).Just to elaborate on my position with Telekinesis: The SRD states under incorporeal subtype (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monsterTypes.html#incorporeal) that: Incorporeal creatures cannot fall or take falling damage. Incorporeal creatures cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can they be tripped or grappled. In fact, they cannot take any physical action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor are they subject to such actions. Now if you consider the possible effects of Telekinesis (Sustained Force, Combat Maneuver & Violent Thrust) they all 'move or manipulate an opponent or it's equipment', where the Incorporeal subtype specifically states that incorporeal creatures are not 'subject to such actions'. Finally Telekinesis allows for throwing objects at a target (Violent Thrust), however unless these objects would be magical, they cannot hurt an incorporeal creature simply by virtue of its incorporeality. Thus this would directly imply that Telekinesis has no effect on incorporeal creatures.
hogarth 12-28-07, 03:48 PM	Thus this would directly imply that Telekinesis has no effect on incorporeal creatures. I agree, but by the same token it directly implies that Varjo cannot grapple Solstice. So either you believe in the SRD and incorporeal grappling is impossible, or you believe in the Rules of the Game and it is possible (whether via TK or not). That's my take on it.
CrazyArtificer 12-28-07, 03:55 PM	Uranedal jumps on the chair with surprise. A goblin which can use illusions? Seems interesting.. take your seat and feel free to join me and my unusual companion in our discussion. The gnome stares at Vallgar.. this man looks a bit out of the ordinary, to say the least. However Uranedal doesn't like normal people. It's always nice to see the blending between illusion and reality spread among everydays life. I'm sure that any spy will surely have something better to do than spying three gladiators talking about their travels. Come here and meet our new guest... Uranedal moves his hand towards the goblin, encouraging him to speak and reveal his name
Stormwind 12-28-07, 04:22 PM	I agree, but by the same token it directly implies that Varjo cannot grapple Solstice. So either you believe in the SRD and incorporeal grappling is impossible, or you believe in the Rules of the Game and it is possible (whether via TK or not). That's my take on it. I agree that RAW should always take precedence over the RotG, and I'm not 100% behind allowing incorporeal grappling and as I told lonewolf I have no problem if he doesn't allow incorporeal vs incorporeal grappling. However, just to explain, my interpretation was that RAW rules on this were specific to the interaction of the material vs incorporeal and visa-versa. I further interpreted that the RotG simply clarified how things worked in the case of incorporeal vs incorporeal, something not previously addressed in RAW. That all being said, I have to agree with Telin on his point that additional options from the RotG should not be used, and this would definitely fall under that classification.
MindWandererB 12-28-07, 07:15 PM	Re: Living Gladius and the guild game: I don't have a lot to add there, except that I have some ideas for a revised system that I just haven't had time to write up and post. It will be immensely simplified as well as more flexible (making it so no one "has" to step up to keep things going, except for Guildlords). Sauro and I had several discussions about it, and I think I have enough to come up with a rough draft/outline. I'd been holding off on that, trying to get the Community going first, but now I think I'd better work on both at once. Look for it within the next couple of weeks. We've tried a RP-only guild system a couple of times, and it died. Some mechanical aspect seems to be required to keep it going on a regular basis--something that changes or presents new situations to respond to on a weekly, bi-weekly, or perhaps even monthly basis.
The Dread Dormammu 12-28-07, 10:09 PM	Snaga takes his seat and turns to the bartender, “Wine please, Elvish if you have it.” He casts his gaze around the tavern, clearly feeling exposed now that his illusion is down. “My name is Snaga Ngaram Uruki, but you may call me Snaga. I am a student of the mystic arts, a combatant in the Arena, and a bit of a polyglot. I’m also a member of the arcane order.” Snaga finds it odd that Vallgar “talks” to his undead but tries not to let his discomfort show. He begins to speak in draconic “Ahem, if your ‘friend’ there is worried about spies, may I suggest we continue our conversation in a different language; as I mentioned earlier I am somewhat of a polyglot, we could continue in Draconic, but I find the people of Gladius to be a bit too familiar with the Wizard’s tongue. Perhaps something a bit more… obscure? I’m fluent in all forms of the black speech.”
CrazyArtificer 12-30-07, 07:25 AM	Uranedal smiled slightly.. he was quite fun for him to met this two guys.. Surely it's not so common to find people which shares your interests and some basic ideals on life in such a few minutes! Uranedal continued in Draconic "Well.. I guess that in such a busy place the only way to avoid being spied is to avoid talking about reserved things.. isn't it? I just realized that I didn't entroduce myself, I'm sorry. I'm Uranedal of Redleaf, stuned of magic and sculpter. It's a pleasure to meet one goblin with a bit of salt in his head."
hogarth 12-30-07, 11:29 PM	@TelinArtho: This is a bit late, but the rewards for Darian Thorne vs. The Eternal Dreamless Sleep are off. (link: http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14672221&postcount=1593) Here's the relevant part of the rules: "The party earns experience as if they were a randomly assigned team, except that any bonuses or penalties to XP are averaged across the members." So the penalty for the TEDS members is -8.333% (they both have the same penalty, so the averaging part is moot).
The Dread Dormammu 12-31-07, 12:07 PM	Quick question, when a fight goes into week 2 the rules say the character gets a Full Activity as compensation. If you use this activity to craft do you get the crafted items for your next fight or are they left at "home?"
McJarvis 12-31-07, 12:14 PM	Quick question, when a fight goes into week 2 the rules say the character gets a Full Activity as compensation. If you use this activity to craft do you get the crafted items for your next fight or are they left at "home?" home
whitebaron 12-31-07, 08:40 PM	Quick question, when a fight goes into week 2 the rules say the character gets a Full Activity as compensation. If you use this activity to craft do you get the crafted items for your next fight or are they left at "home?" its the same as normal crafting goes - you get it at the end of your 3fc. :) only difference: you did not need an activation for your full action.
Zevox 12-31-07, 08:43 PM	Well hello again everyone :) . Good to see this place is still around. Looks like I've finally got the chance to come back, for a little while if nothing else. (I actually probably could have come back a week or two ago, but other things kept me from remembering this place, not the least of which being Christmas.*) I see we have a couple of new Elders - a belated congratulations to Macbrea and 'Rith on that, you both deserve it (though it leaves me curious what happened to NiQil). Anyway, I should be able to participate for a couple of weeks at least, maybe more if school doesn't hit as hard next semester as it did this last one. Any new rules/rulings/features I should be aware of? I imagine we must have gotten some in the three months or so since I left. Actually, the thing that reminded me is rather weird. One of the books I received as a Christmas gift, Paul Kemp's Shadowstorm (a Forgotten Realms novel), has a character who is named Asran, and another who is the half-fiend son of Mephistopheles (a Ranger/Psion named Magadon, nothing like my Asran). I'm sure anyone who remembers me knows why that reminded me of the CoCo. Kind of a creepy coincidence.
templer10 01-01-08, 06:11 AM	Well hello again everyone :) . Good to see this place is still around. Looks like I've finally got the chance to come back, for a little while if nothing else. (I actually probably could have come back a week or two ago, but other things kept me from remembering this place, not the least of which being Christmas.*) I see we have a couple of new Elders - a belated congratulations to Macbrea and 'Rith on that, you both deserve it (though it leaves me curious what happened to NiQil). Anyway, I should be able to participate for a couple of weeks at least, maybe more if school doesn't hit as hard next semester as it did this last one. Any new rules/rulings/features I should be aware of? I imagine we must have gotten some in the three months or so since I left. Actually, the thing that reminded me is rather weird. One of the books I received as a Christmas gift, Paul Kemp's Shadowstorm (a Forgotten Realms novel), has a character who is named Asran, and another who is the half-fiend son of Mephistopheles (a Ranger/Psion named Magadon, nothing like my Asran). I'm sure anyone who remembers me knows why that reminded me of the CoCo. Kind of a creepy coincidence. Welcome back - Good to have you again. About niqil - he was part bored, part frustrated if i remmber correctly. About Rules- err dont remmber - when exacly did you leave? one thing that is definently new is that it's now possibly to speed up crafting by 1 week (or more) for 1 credit/week. not sure if you were around for the energy missile/dispel psionics nerf. p.s - Who needs school - Ignorence is Bliss (said the guy with 2 many years of schooling)
Stormwind 01-01-08, 08:17 AM	Well hello again everyone :) . Good to see this place is still around. Looks like I've finally got the chance to come back, for a little while if nothing else. (I actually probably could have come back a week or two ago, but other things kept me from remembering this place, not the least of which being Christmas.*) I see we have a couple of new Elders - a belated congratulations to Macbrea and 'Rith on that, you both deserve it (though it leaves me curious what happened to NiQil). Anyway, I should be able to participate for a couple of weeks at least, maybe more if school doesn't hit as hard next semester as it did this last one. Any new rules/rulings/features I should be aware of? I imagine we must have gotten some in the three months or so since I left. Actually, the thing that reminded me is rather weird. One of the books I received as a Christmas gift, Paul Kemp's Shadowstorm (a Forgotten Realms novel), has a character who is named Asran, and another who is the half-fiend son of Mephistopheles (a Ranger/Psion named Magadon, nothing like my Asran). I'm sure anyone who remembers me knows why that reminded me of the CoCo. Kind of a creepy coincidence. Welcome back Zevox. Nice to see another old face around :D
Stormwind 01-01-08, 08:43 AM	Is the ghost touch property on a weapon sufficient for an incorporeal creature to apply poison to the weapon (e.g. breaking a vial with a ghost touch weapon), or is it necessary that a creature be fully corporeal to apply the poison to the weapon?
Zevox 01-01-08, 10:15 AM	Welcome back - Good to have you again. About niqil - he was part bored, part frustrated if i remmber correctly. About Rules- err dont remmber - when exacly did you leave? one thing that is definently new is that it's now possibly to speed up crafting by 1 week (or more) for 1 credit/week. not sure if you were around for the energy missile/dispel psionics nerf. p.s - Who needs school - Ignorence is Bliss (said the guy with 2 many years of schooling) Well, I left shortly after my classes began in early September, so it looks like I've been away for nearly four months. Crafting thing is definitely new. Doesn't mean much to me at the moment since I used up every credit I had activating Nimbus before I left though. Don't recall any nerfs to EM or Dispel Psionics, no, though I definitely recall wishing some would be put in place. What got done? The obvious EM damage/DC scaling as other energy powers and Dispel adding based on your level when augmented rather than just +2/pp? Edit: Looked it up, yep, exactly those. Good to see such finally got implemented - makes those powers a lot more balanced. Welcome back Zevox. Nice to see another old face around :D Likewise - I do believe you were still in retirement when I left. Good to see you came back too :) . Is the ghost touch property on a weapon sufficient for an incorporeal creature to apply poison to the weapon (e.g. breaking a vial with a ghost touch weapon), or is it necessary that a creature be fully corporeal to apply the poison to the weapon? My initial impression is no, since I believe poisoning a weapon requires more careful application than just breaking the vial on it, but of course I have been away for a while and am no longer an Elder, so thats just an opinion. Hm, SRD just indicates that the poison is "smeared" on a weapon. Annoyingly vague. Zevox
whitebaron 01-01-08, 10:25 AM	if you could just break the poison over the blade, there would never be a chance to accidentally poison yourself, even as non-incorporeal creature. so i'd say, no, attacking with the dagger can't be enough.
lonewolf 01-01-08, 10:32 AM	if you could just break the poison over the blade, there would never be a chance to accidentally poison yourself, even as non-incorporeal creature. so i'd say, no, attacking with the dagger can't be enough. 2nd
Stormwind 01-01-08, 11:14 AM	if you could just break the poison over the blade, there would never be a chance to accidentally poison yourself, even as non-incorporeal creature. so i'd say, no, attacking with the dagger can't be enough. Yeah ... that's about what I figured. The vagueness of the SRD on this (as Zevox noted) was what led to this question.
whitebaron 01-01-08, 12:43 PM	i think the main problem with just breaking the glass would be to apply the poison over the whole blade. if you hit with the wrong part, the weapon would do just not poison damage. therefor, you need to manipulate the whole blade, that's the part where you're risking to hurt yourself.
MindWandererB 01-02-08, 01:44 AM	To all: Sorry I haven't been around much lately; holidays plus a major life change have taken up a lot of my time. Accordingly, pairings are going to be a little late tomorrow (say, 4 hours after the deadline). On the flip side, apparently I'm going to be at D&D Experience this year. If any of the rest of you-all will be there, we should hook up. Maybe we could get a Delve team going or something.
TelinArtho 01-02-08, 10:37 AM	@McJ - regarding your violation on Morro. While arrows are not considered expendables under the expendable cap, they are still expendable. I have left all of my expendables under the expendable section on all of my sheets for some time. I do not consider this a violation.
Durzulgor 01-02-08, 10:37 AM	Just a little question concerning held over fights: Normally you get a full activity "for free" to compensate for your held over fights, but what if you can't do anything as a full activity? Can you take a free activity instead? I mean, can I take my "make money with profession" free activity with Durzulgor I?
TelinArtho 01-02-08, 10:39 AM	Just a little question concerning held over fights: Normally you get a full activity "for free" to compensate for your held over fights, but what if you can't do anything as a full activity? Can you take a free activity instead? I mean, can I take my "make money with profession" free activity with Durzulgor I? Nope - only full activities. We wanted to give something back - but giving free money would be a little too much (and if the character got held back on numerous occasions - could be very unbalancing...)
Durzulgor 01-02-08, 10:42 AM	Damn! Durz should've learned something usefull! ;-)
McJarvis 01-02-08, 10:45 AM	@McJ - regarding your violation on Morro. While arrows are not considered expendables under the expendable cap, they are still expendable. I have left all of my expendables under the expendable section on all of my sheets for some time. I do not consider this a violation. I think if you list anything in the expendibles portion of your sheet, you should label them as not under the expendible cap for ease of error-checking. Otherwise I could just put all my equipment under there.... [or anything with charges?] Anyway- even if he/you don't want to remove them, I think color-coding them or putting an astrik or something would be better form. [and since this specifically interacts with the expendible cap and checking to see if the character is over/under, I think this should be a violation] edit- This is kind of a change for me[regarding the philosophical ideal of reporting characters in this manner]. For example, I had my own "preferred" custom system for tracking XP, but both MWB & Rith have commented on being confused by it at first glance. I now have a format which should make it easy for someone not familiar with my system to know what is legal, and for me to see clearly how much xp I need to level. I think it's best to make your sheet as clear as possible regarding whether you're within the rules or not.
TelinArtho 01-02-08, 11:07 AM	I guess I could just change it - it really is a minor thing and won't add anything to my sheet. The only reason I left it as it is was because I track things easier in this fashion. Anyway - on second thought - I can see how it could be considered a violation (especially after I reread the default sheet). As for violations in a more general sense for character sheets - I'm not much in support of violations for formatting differences (because individuals format things to their liking). Obviously if something is specifically missing - that's one thing; but if something is placed in a different location, I would not support that - the default character sheet is for beginners to have something to work from, it is not a hard and binding rule. Anyway - you'll get credit for the violation.
TelinArtho 01-02-08, 11:19 AM	Well hello again everyone :) . Good to see this place is still around. Looks like I've finally got the chance to come back, for a little while if nothing else. (I actually probably could have come back a week or two ago, but other things kept me from remembering this place, not the least of which being Christmas.*) I see we have a couple of new Elders - a belated congratulations to Macbrea and 'Rith on that, you both deserve it (though it leaves me curious what happened to NiQil). Anyway, I should be able to participate for a couple of weeks at least, maybe more if school doesn't hit as hard next semester as it did this last one. Any new rules/rulings/features I should be aware of? I imagine we must have gotten some in the three months or so since I left. Actually, the thing that reminded me is rather weird. One of the books I received as a Christmas gift, Paul Kemp's Shadowstorm (a Forgotten Realms novel), has a character who is named Asran, and another who is the half-fiend son of Mephistopheles (a Ranger/Psion named Magadon, nothing like my Asran). I'm sure anyone who remembers me knows why that reminded me of the CoCo. Kind of a creepy coincidence. Welcome back my friend - good to see you come back after a short break. I would suggest taking a look over the list of council decisions (in the second or third post) and maybe a quick look over the questions/answers in the Courtroom posts (anything added would have been added to the end - so that would be a place to start).
hogarth 01-02-08, 11:33 AM	Anyway, I should be able to participate for a couple of weeks at least, maybe more if school doesn't hit as hard next semester as it did this last one. Any new rules/rulings/features I should be aware of? I imagine we must have gotten some in the three months or so since I left. One thing that comes to mind is that we had a vigorous discussion of magic/psionic transparency. Opinions were mixed, but I think the Elders eventually decided that basically "anything goes", i.e. you can use the feat Spell Focus on psionic powers, you can share powers with animal companions/familiars, and basically replace "spellcasting" with "manifesting" and "spell" with "power" anywhere (and vice versa). I don't see anything about it in the Courtroom rulings, though.
TelinArtho 01-02-08, 12:01 PM	Thanks hogarth - that's apparently one that I missed over the last few months. Incidentally, if someone knows of an issue that was reviewed and decided upon in the courtroom but that seems to be missing from the opening posts of that thread - please do let me know. I am human and I have 3 kids - so I make mistakes all of the time :P On the psionic/magic transparency specific issue - I don't see an actual resolution to it... bah! THe last word specifically mentioned on it was here: - Feats do not benefit from transparency. Only spells, spell-like abilities, and items do. - Stuff that applies to magic applies to psionics. Stuff that applies to psionics does not apply to magic unless otherwise stated. I don't see a full vote on the subject though (this was MWB responding to a post by Sauro).
hogarth 01-02-08, 12:54 PM	I don't see a full vote on the subject though (this was MWB responding to a post by Sauro). I believe Sauro, Vath, Erithmu and MWB all indicated that Spell Focus would work on psionic powers, though. EDIT: I was wrong about Vath, it looks like. Sauro (he proposed the interpretation, so presumably he was in favour of it) Erithmu http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14182704&postcount=1661 MWB http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14155371&postcount=1641
TelinArtho 01-02-08, 12:58 PM	Well - with MWB's later statement (the passage I quoted from 1685) - I am not sure he's still in line with it. Same would go for Sauro. Seems like it should be revisited since it was never closed. I don't have the time to rehash it right now - so if you do - please feel free.
MindWandererB 01-02-08, 03:17 PM	I guess I could just change it - it really is a minor thing and won't add anything to my sheet. The only reason I left it as it is was because I track things easier in this fashion. Anyway - on second thought - I can see how it could be considered a violation (especially after I reread the default sheet). As for violations in a more general sense for character sheets - I'm not much in support of violations for formatting differences (because individuals format things to their liking). Obviously if something is specifically missing - that's one thing; but if something is placed in a different location, I would not support that - the default character sheet is for beginners to have something to work from, it is not a hard and binding rule. Anyway - you'll get credit for the violation.There is one major exception, which is stuff I need to be able to find. Experience and ECL must be instantly visible without my having to hunt around for it. Cat used to require that the fight history not be in sblocks; I'm relaxing that but it still has to be in a standardized location. Also, 3FC info must be at either the top (on the first screen) or the very bottom, for pitlords and opponents. Now that I mention it: I find I often have a hard time finding the pre-fight actions section of a sheet, and it's very important. Would others like that to be moved?
TelinArtho 01-02-08, 03:50 PM	Working on yet another character design and a bit of a question came up. The aranea has two arms with with hands and fingers located below the mandibles. 1. Can an aranea strap a shield to one of these arms? 2. Can an aranea use a weapon in one of these hands? The only questionable item I find with it is that the entry states, specifically, that in humanoid and hybrid forms, the aranea can use weapons and armor.
lonewolf 01-02-08, 04:01 PM	I´d say no to both. IMHO those arms are enough to do somatic components, use scrolls, potions, powerstones, wands and dorjes, but nothing more.
MindWandererB 01-02-08, 04:06 PM	Change Shape (Su): An aranea’s natural form is that of a Medium monstrous spider. It can assume two other forms. The first is a unique Small or Medium humanoid; an aranea in its humanoid form always assumes the same appearance and traits, much as a lycanthrope would. In humanoid form, an aranea cannot use its bite attack, webs, or poison. The second form is a Medium spider–humanoid hybrid. In hybrid form, an aranea looks like a Medium humanoid at first glance, but a DC 18 Spot check reveals the creature’s fangs and spinnerets. The aranea retains its bite attack, webs, and poison in this form, and can also wield weapons or wear armor. When in hybrid form, an aranea’s speed is 30 feet (6 squares).In its natural form, it can use only what an animal can use. It's a medium monstrous spider, no more. Only in hybrid or humanoid form can it hold anything in its hands (or even has hands).
hogarth 01-02-08, 04:07 PM	In its natural form, it can use only what an animal can use. It's a medium monstrous spider, no more. Only in hybrid or humanoid form can it hold anything in its hands (or even has hands). No, the description specifically says it has two arms in its spider form.
TelinArtho 01-02-08, 04:14 PM	In its natural form, it can use only what an animal can use. It's a medium monstrous spider, no more. Only in hybrid or humanoid form can it hold anything in its hands (or even has hands). An aranea is an intelligent, shapechanging spider with sorcerous powers. In its natural form, an aranea resembles a big spider, with a humpbacked body a little bigger than a human torso. It has fanged mandibles like a normal spider. Two small arms, each about 2 feet long, lie below the mandibles. Each arm has a hand with four many-jointed fingers and a double-jointed thumb. Just to put that issue to rest - it certainly has arms. Its probably just as well if it can't use weapons and a shield... but it doesn't hurt to ask these kinds of questions in the design phase...
Nabuchadnezzar 01-03-08, 11:52 AM	Hello everyone! I'm a new gladiator here :D Soon I'll finish my character sheet. I have a question for you. May I start with, say, a 25 charges wand for half its price?
TelinArtho 01-03-08, 11:53 AM	Okay - so I'm still working on this aranea concept and I'm at a bit of an unknown. For feats, I have pretty much settled in on Weapon Finesse (needs the extra attack bonus from the dex). For the 3rd HD feat, I'm torn though. I can go for Ability Focus (Poison) which will drive up the save DC on the poison to a decent level. This is good, but is limited - since the aranea will start at ECL7 - fortitude saves could easily go beyond reasonable for the save DC. Add to that there are a number of races, types, etc that are simply immune to poison and it seems like a suboptimal choice. Alternatively, I could go with a metamagic feat. Since I am planning on going with sorcerer from there on out - picking up a metamagic feat now will enable picking up a substitution feat at 6HD (ECL10) to maximize her versatility. For the 6HD feat though, I feel I am more likely to want Leadership (one of my few characters that would ever want it...), but even that is questionable. Thoughts?
TelinArtho 01-03-08, 11:54 AM	May I start with, say, a 25 charges wand for half its price? Nope. Wands have to be fully charged at purchase/creation.
McJarvis 01-03-08, 12:01 PM	Nope. Wands have to be fully charged at purchase/creation. Apparently the council goes to great difficulty to hunt down every sold used wand and destroy it & whoever purchased it. This is the closest explination I can find as to why there are no wand pawn-shops :)
McJarvis 01-03-08, 12:02 PM	Thoughts? Given that antitoxin costs so little and gives a whopping +5 against poison saves, I would advise against any strategy that revolves around poison. If it turns out to be a good choice: people of that ECL will just buy antitoxin vials. If it's a bad choice, you're stuck with a feat.
Nabuchadnezzar 01-03-08, 12:05 PM	Nope. Wands have to be fully charged at purchase/creation. Ok, so that wand will wait for now ;) As a Rgr 1 / Brb 2, may I easily purchase a Longstrider wand [CL 1] after my first 3 fights? Thank you for patience :D
McJarvis 01-03-08, 12:08 PM	Ok, so that wand will wait for now ;) As a Rgr 1 / Brb 2, may I easily purchase a Longstrider wand [CL 1] after my first 3 fights? Thank you for patience :D For a mere 750gp too. Popular ranger wands that you might want to check out are cure light wounds wands and resist energy wands.
Nabuchadnezzar 01-03-08, 12:15 PM	For a mere 750gp too. Popular ranger wands that you might want to check out are cure light wounds wands and resist energy wands. Thank you for advice! I'll buy a CLW wand too if I gain enough money. Resist energy wands costs 1500 gp I think (CL 2), that's too much for me now, but I plan to take that wand soon. Entangle CL 1, Delay poison CL 2, and Pass without trace CL 1 are also good choices for really cheap wands, aren't they?
McJarvis 01-03-08, 12:16 PM	Thank you for advice! I'll buy a CLW wand too if I gain enough money. Resist energy wands costs 1500 gp I think (CL 2), that's too much for me now, but I plan to take that wand soon. Entangle CL 1, Delay poison CL 2, and Pass without trace CL 1 are also good choices for really cheap wands, aren't they? Entangle is. I'd rather pick up vials of antitoxin over delay poison, and pass without trace is practically useless in the arena. [it just stops you from being tracked- it doesn't stop creatures from smelling you entirely] ps- you are correct- resist energy wands are 1500gp.
Nabuchadnezzar 01-03-08, 12:24 PM	Entangle is. I'd rather pick up vials of antitoxin over delay poison, and pass without trace is practically useless in the arena. [it just stops you from being tracked- it doesn't stop creatures from smelling you entirely] ps- you are correct- resist energy wands are 1500gp. Doesn't pass without trace (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/passWithoutTrace.htm) stop scent? You are right about vials of antitoxin. Do these alchemical item count toward Expendable item list, like potions and tattoos?
TelinArtho 01-03-08, 12:26 PM	Delay poison is probably a bit of overkill in a wand, but a scroll of it (50gp when ranger crafted - CL2) is vastly superior to the antitoxin as long as you have the space in your expendable cap. And no - the only things counted in the cap are potions, scrolls, powerstones and tattoos. Yes Pass without Trace does stop scent. McJ is on crack :P
hogarth 01-03-08, 12:38 PM	Given that antitoxin costs so little and gives a whopping +5 against poison saves, I would advise against any strategy that revolves around poison. If it turns out to be a good choice: people of that ECL will just buy antitoxin vials. If it's a bad choice, you're stuck with a feat. Antitoxin is one thing, but consider that a CL 2 potion of Delay Poison gives complete immunity to poison for two hours. That's one of my expendables of choice, these days. EDIT: Ninja'ed by Telin.
Nabuchadnezzar 01-03-08, 12:40 PM	Delay poison is probably a bit of overkill in a wand, but a scroll of it (50gp when ranger crafted - CL2) is vastly superior to the antitoxin as long as you have the space in your expendable cap. And no - the only things counted in the cap are potions, scrolls, powerstones and tattoos. Yes Pass without Trace does stop scent. McJ is on crack :P So I could start out with dozenz of tangelfoot bags? Cool :D I think wands are far better than scrolls, at least lower level ones: they can be used even if blinded or grappled, and cost per charge is 15 instead of 25 (CL 1)
whitebaron 01-03-08, 12:42 PM	wands are more cost-effective, true. but they are a heavy investment in the future. and i don't believe you'll be seing that much poison around here to justify a wand against any poisonous effect.
McJarvis 01-03-08, 12:42 PM	Yes Pass without Trace does stop scent. McJ is on crack :P This is not true. When I used Mort in the arena it was ruled that you could not _track_ her by scent, but creatures with scent could still note her in the area & the direction she was in. [forest gnomes get pass without trace at will, after all]
TelinArtho 01-03-08, 12:43 PM	While true - in a money-regulated arena like this - you need to be fairly selective about where your money goes... Wands are certainly more cost efficient and use efficient - but scrolls can give you the versatility you need with a minimal cost associated with it. For instance, delay poison will probably only come up once in a fairly rare while - so a scroll of it will be good enough to tide you over (since poison is relatively rarely used); Resist energy is useful in a wand because you could see it used in multiple fights and multiple times within that fight. And yes - you can start off with 48lbs worth of tanglefoot bags if you really wanted to...
TelinArtho 01-03-08, 12:44 PM	This is not true. When I used Mort in the arena it was ruled that you could not _track_ her by scent, but creatures with scent could still note her in the area & the direction she was in. [forest gnomes get pass without trace at will, after all] Really? How odd... it specifically says in the spell's entry that the affected creature does not give off a scent. If that's the case, it could stand to be revoted on (if I'm not mistaken that would be when Cat was still in charge, yes?).
McJarvis 01-03-08, 12:47 PM	Really? How odd... it specifically says in the spell's entry that the affected creature does not give off a scent. If that's the case, it could stand to be revoted on (if I'm not mistaken that would be when Cat was still in charge, yes?). It specifically says that the creature doesn't _leave_ a scent. They minced the wording on it when I asked & came up with the "can't track but still can smell" bit. and yeah, cat was in charge then. I don't recall who was making the point against it beating scent, though.
TelinArtho 01-03-08, 12:55 PM	Hmm - can't find the discussion. All I found was a quick 2-post entry in Tavern III (2005): [Post 368] Author : Jindl Date : 06-28-05 12:45 PM Scent from the srd. Is there anithing in the core to remove one's scent? Read the spell, Pass Without Trace. Might've been in one of the FotW threads though - and thus lost forever unless you have an idea about the time frame. In any case, I do see the entry for it in the court decisions - so you are indeed correct about it existing. I can understand the argument on it - but I'm not sure I really agree with it, but meh.
Nabuchadnezzar 01-03-08, 12:59 PM	It specifically says that the creature doesn't _leave_ a scent. They minced the wording on it when I asked & came up with the "can't track but still can smell" bit. and yeah, cat was in charge then. I don't recall who was making the point against it beating scent, though. If you don't leave scent, how do a creature smell you, say, 5 feet away? You don't leave scent, so scent can't be "gathered" by gnoll noses :D Anyway, I'm left with 24 gp... I took weapons, armor, potions, tattoos, alchemical items... Is there anything useful in the adventuring gear, tools and skill kits, or whatnot, for a wild elf? He has no crafting skill. I just posted my character, Calidor Tyrbelel. He's incomplete, and any advice will be really helpful, as this is my 1st character here :D
TelinArtho 01-03-08, 01:19 PM	Well - he looks pretty close to complete to me (well except for the extra sections at the bottom of the sheet anyway). Unless you specifically need/want them - you do not need to include the links back to the SRD on the various items on your sheet. Everyone is assumed to know where to find the various basic information (information about Barbarian for instance). Not a big deal - but keeping the sheet short and to the point is helpful to everyone. I don't spot any agregious errors though.
whitebaron 01-03-08, 01:30 PM	how to trim the sheet: - remove "Default Character Sheet" from top ;) - remove ally sections if you don't have them - remove wizard spellbook section - remove lowest [/quote] - remove non-combat abilities since you already had them in place somewhere else. a smaller sheet helps pitlords, as fights tend to get lenghty, and they'll have to split it up in several sheets. this is not meant to be "leave everything out", though - just cut off what you really don't need.
Nabuchadnezzar 01-03-08, 01:57 PM	how to trim the sheet: - remove "Default Character Sheet" from top ;) - remove ally sections if you don't have them - remove wizard spellbook section - remove lowest [ /quote] - remove non-combat abilities since you already had them in place somewhere else. a smaller sheet helps pitlords, as fights tend to get lenghty, and they'll have to split it up in several sheets. this is not meant to be "leave everything out", though - just cut off what you really don't need. - done - done - done - done - you mean this? Special Attacks & Abilities Rage 1/day: +4 bonus on Strength and Constitution, +2 bonus on will saves, -2 penalty to AC, lasts 6 rounds Wild empathy (+1) Should I delete that? What about wild empathy? I put that into skills?
McJarvis 01-03-08, 02:02 PM	In any case, I do see the entry for it in the court decisions - so you are indeed correct about it existing. I can understand the argument on it - but I'm not sure I really agree with it, but meh. I remember feeling at the time that the reason it came down was that people were tired of me coming up with ways to not be detected. Mort's fights were going 50-90 rounds _every fight_...though really cat's call on making higher level CL's not available at ECL3 effectively got rid of what made the build difficult to fight. [deeper darkness & it's crazy long radius & very cheap NPC casting capabilities]
whitebaron 01-03-08, 02:03 PM	no, i meant the sblock on the bottom, which says "non-combat related abilities" - you removed that already in the progress, i suppose, as it is no longer there
Nabuchadnezzar 01-03-08, 02:25 PM	no, i meant the sblock on the bottom, which says "non-combat related abilities" - you removed that already in the progress, i suppose, as it is no longer there Ah, I didn't notice that :D Well, now it's time to write down background and default strategies... I don't know how "Results" and "3FC Information" work, but I think I have time up to next Wednestey to figure out... I should take a free activity now, let's see... well, guard home is simply the only thing I can do :D
Zevox 01-03-08, 02:33 PM	Okay - so I'm still working on this aranea concept and I'm at a bit of an unknown. For feats, I have pretty much settled in on Weapon Finesse (needs the extra attack bonus from the dex). For the 3rd HD feat, I'm torn though. I can go for Ability Focus (Poison) which will drive up the save DC on the poison to a decent level. This is good, but is limited - since the aranea will start at ECL7 - fortitude saves could easily go beyond reasonable for the save DC. Add to that there are a number of races, types, etc that are simply immune to poison and it seems like a suboptimal choice. Alternatively, I could go with a metamagic feat. Since I am planning on going with sorcerer from there on out - picking up a metamagic feat now will enable picking up a substitution feat at 6HD (ECL10) to maximize her versatility. For the 6HD feat though, I feel I am more likely to want Leadership (one of my few characters that would ever want it...), but even that is questionable. Thoughts? I wouldn't go with Ability Focus, personally. Most of the characters around here who aren't purely magic/psionics-focused have great fortitude saves (since multiclassing with multiple warrior-classes is so common), and many others carry things like antitoxins and delay poison potions/scrolls. I wouldn't expect to get too much use out of the poison, honestly. Metamagic for energy/subdual substitution is probably the way to go I'd say. I'd go with empower spell if you're looking to use a lot of offensive magic, or heighten spell if you're using a lot of save-using spells (very nice on Sorcerers in particular, with spontaneous casting as it is). Oh, and welcome to our newest member :) . I'd offer some advice, but it looks like Telin and McJarvis have that covered. Hope you enjoy this place as much as we do. Zevox
The Dread Dormammu 01-03-08, 04:55 PM	In free-for-all fights are characters allowed to discuss their strategies with the other players in the fight beforehand? For example could I send a PM to one of the players saying "I won't attack you unless the other players are eliminated, or you attack me."
McJarvis 01-03-08, 04:57 PM	In free-for-all fights are characters allowed to discuss their strategies with the other players in the fight beforehand? For example could I send a PM to one of the players saying "I won't attack you unless the other players are eliminated, or you attack me." Nothing prevents you from doing this- but such alliances are tenuous at best.
TelinArtho 01-03-08, 05:02 PM	More specifically - you are frowned upon doing this. If you do however and another player doesn't live up to the "alliance" you forge - you have no recourse. A FFA is designed to be everyone for his/herself.
The Dread Dormammu 01-03-08, 05:15 PM	I remember I was playing a game of Risk once with a girl who had never played before. She asked "what happens if I just break an alliance?" It was like she had discovered plutonium! No one ever wound up breaking an alliance mind you (because such things were unsportsmanlike) but we had always just assumed that if we said "I won't attack Europe next turn" we couldn't, however, this was never stated in the rules. If you can do it but it's "frowned upon", a chaotic character would probably do it. If I and not my character will be frowned upon perhaps one shouldn't (I after all have a different alignment than my character). I guess my question is: "is it unsportsmanlike for me, or for my character?"
McJarvis 01-03-08, 05:25 PM	I remember I was playing a game of Risk once with a girl who had never played before. She asked "what happens if I just break an alliance?" It was like she had discovered plutonium! No one ever wound up breaking an alliance mind you (because such things were unsportsmanlike) but we had always just assumed that if we said "I won't attack Europe next turn" we couldn't, however, this was never stated in the rules. If you can do it but it's "frowned upon", a chaotic character would probably do it. If I and not my character will be frowned upon perhaps one shouldn't (I after all have a different alignment than my character). I guess my question is: "is it unsportsmanlike for me, or for my character?" I think you'll find that most players in CoCo are anti-games of politics. Every time I've offered a deal to an opponent to save resources/ally/etc I've been shot down, even if it was evenly good for both gladiators. :(
The Dread Dormammu 01-03-08, 05:30 PM	I think you'll find that most players in CoCo are anti-games of politics. Every time I've offered a deal to an opponent to save resources/ally/etc I've been shot down, even if it was evenly good for both gladiators. :( Good to know, if it's seen as unsportsmanlike I don't want to try it. Thanks.
MindWandererB 01-03-08, 05:34 PM	Re: Pass without Trace: Both Telin and McJarvis are correct, after a fashion. Here's the last time it came up. I know because I happened to be the pitlord. Yeah, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you on the Pass without Trace ruling. The recipient can't be tracked by smell, the spell states. So if an escaped convict wanted to hide from a bloodhound and drank the potion, the bloodhound wouldn't be able to track him by smell. It would be denied the use of its scent ability when used to try to find the convict. On the other hand, if an invisible wizard wants to escape from a hunting griffon and drinks the potion, it doesn't cover his scent because he is not interested in escaping, just staying away while he summons helpers. I don't see how intent can change the way a spell operates (unless specifically stated as such in the spell description ala sanctuary and invisibility). If you can't be tracked by scent, then you can't be tracked by scent, whether your scent is on the ground or on the wind. A tracking creature with the scent ability simply doesn't get a clue as to your direction. I'm sorry, I just don't agree.To be more correct, the spell states that you don't LEAVE a smell or footprints. It doesn't prevent something from smelling you because you are right there, it prevent someone from smelling you when you are no longer there. If the spell worked the way your interpretation came off as, the spell would need to say that you have no odor for the duration of the spell.Ok. I hate to "go there" with this, but it just makes sense to me to do so. Advance apology. "Leaving scent" is like being covered in wet paint and brushing up against a world constructed entirely of blank canvas as you move. You leave traces of it everywhere in such a way that it is easy for anyone that can see it to follow you. Smelling something on the wind is (to extrapolate from the above analogy) to leave traces of paint on the miniscule pieces of canvas blowing free in the wind (dust, molecules of air, or whatever). Pass without Trace makes the paint you're covered in white as well. So, white-on-white footprints, white-on-white traces on blank canvas trees, white-on-white traces on dust, molecules of air, or whatever. Look, I'm not saying MWB is wrong. She's the pitlord of that particular matchup and she can make any decision she wants. The only people who can question her are her players, and even then she's still completely RIGHT as long as it is an interpretive call that she has made, and not something completely against the RAW. MWB (not intending to speak for you here, MWB) made a judgement call on the way a spell interacts with the game world. That's perfectly fine, and I'll stand behind her if one of the players involved started getting huffy. That is HER province, and her call. I simply disagree with her both on flavor and logical reasons, and I think that I have good reason to. I would rule it differently, is all.TMI think the critical thing here is whether "track" is being used at all. Track is a feat possessed by many creatures and rangers in particular. Many creatures specificially recieve bonuses on "Track" checks if they have scent. So the simplest and most direct reading of the spell effect indicates that you cannot use scent or any visual indication as the basis for applying the "track" feat. Since the Track feat was never used, I'm afraid that the spell effect never came into play. The word "Track" is clearly a game mechanic attached to the feat of the same name. Track in this spell description does not apply to all meanings of the word track. If that were the case the spell would effectively make you invisible while moving. Because your eyes "track" an object as it moves across your field of vision. And visual means of tracking are negated. Pittbull in this case was trying his best to negate the scent ability with what he had available. Unfortunately for him this 1st level spell is not the solution. Mindwanderer made a good choice on this ruling. will still have to disagree here. I'll go into more detail. Pass without Trace The subject or subjects can move through any type of terrain and leave neither footprints nor scent. Tracking the subjects is impossible by nonmagical means. SCENT This extraordinary ability lets a creature detect approaching enemies, sniff out hidden foes, and track by sense of smell. A creature with the scent ability can detect opponents by sense of smell, generally within 30 feet. If the opponent is upwind, the range is 60 feet. If it is downwind, the range is 15 feet. Strong scents, such as smoke or rotting garbage, can be detected at twice the ranges noted above. Overpowering scents, such as skunk musk or troglodyte stench, can be detected at three times these ranges. The creature detects another creature’s presence but not its specific location. Noting the direction of the scent is a move action. If it moves within 5 feet of the scent’s source, the creature can pinpoint that source. A creature with the Track feat and the scent ability can follow tracks by smell, making a Wisdom check to find or follow a track. The typical DC for a fresh trail is 10. The DC increases or decreases depending on how strong the quarry’s odor is, the number of creatures, and the age of the trail. For each hour that the trail is cold, the DC increases by 2. The ability otherwise follows the rules for the Track feat. Creatures tracking by scent ignore the effects of surface conditions and poor visibility. Creatures with the scent ability can identify familiar odors just as humans do familiar sights. This feat does not allow you to find or follow the tracks made by a subject of a pass without trace spell. Very well. After all that, we find that: 1) a creature under the effect of PwoT "leaves neither footprints nor scent". 2) a creature with the scent ability can "detect opponents by sense of smell, generally within 30 feet", and "only detects its presence but not its specific location". 3) "noting the direction of the scent is a move action". 4) "a creature with the Track feat and the scent ability can follow tracks by smell, making a Wisdom check to find or follow a track." If PwoT prevents an opponent from "leaving a scent", then it's scent doesn't leave its body. If the scent doesn't leave its body, a creature with the scent ability cannot detect an opponent by sense of smell. If a creature with the scent ability cannot detect an opponent by sense of smell, it cannot detect its presence. Further, it cannot spend a move action to note the direction of the scent. Even the Track feat cannot allow a creature with the scent ability to find or follow the opponent's tracks. The creature with the scent ability is left no clues, because the opponent's scent never leaves its body. The opponent leaves no scent. Does this spark any doubt in your stances? Not at all. It just reinforces it. The two key things in your argument that are really just killing it are: - Your argument is getting hung up on the idea that only possibility for "does not leave scent" is that the subject has no odor. - Your argument confuses tracking with detecting. Because of those two hangups, your argument makes Pass without Trace sound more powerful than it really is. Tracking, as illustrated by the feat Track and how it is mentioned in Scent, is finding and following a trail. Pass without Trace prevents tracking. Detection on the other hand is knowing that something is there. Pass without Trace most certainly does not prevent detection. If detecting and tracking were one and the same, it wouldn't be necessary to write the scent ability to treat them as different tasks. In fact, the scent ability blatantly states that in order to follow tracks by smell, the creature with scent has to have the Track feat. It's "A creature with the Track feat and the scent ability", not or. In other words, just having the scent ability does not allow you to track by smell. Let me give you a different example of how Pass without Trace can work. Do you know how there's usually a fan on top of a kitchen stove to suck away odors while you are cooking? But if you get close enough to the stove and have a decent sense of smell, you can still smell what's cooking despite the fan sucking away the odor so that your walls and furniture don't smell. That's what's going on with Pass without Trace and Scent. I would say more but I need to sleep right now...Pass without trace: It is an old trick in the CoCo to use this spell to avoid the scent abillity. The former Elder Jindl ruled this about two years ago. I never thought that this isn't clear. So, sorry Sauro, MindWanderer made really no good choice. He should have ask me, in such a crucial point of my tactics. But he didn't and made me lose like a stupid rookie. I'll accept the loss and won't argue any further, but I'm deeply dissapointed. Nevertheless, thanks for running the fight, it was a tough one.Alright...I'm not going to rehash the points made by both sides, but I am going to list the ones that make me reach my ruling. From the PwT spell, we see that the subject leaves no scent. The key word here is leaves. It does not say that the subject *has no secent, just that it *leaves no scent (behind). It also says that it is impossible to track someone with this spell...but as was already stated it says nothing about detection. This is key. Tracking someone is following signs they have left in an area they are no longer in. Detecting someone is finding them in their current location, in my estimation. From the scent ability, we see that not only does it give you the ability to track by scent, but it also specifically states that it gives you the ability to detect approaching foes. If track covered this, then it would not go out of it's way to mention it seperately, in my opinion. It also states that it will detect something by scent if it moves within so many ft, and can pinpoint within 5 ft. Let me be clear here. This is not tracking, this is detection. As such, after reading all of these points, I can only conclude that MWB made the correct decision. @ Pittbull: As an aside, if you are going to use things like this that you say have already been ruled on by past Elders, then you should really have posts that you can quote to back that up. Those of us that were not here when those Elders were (Jindl left shortly after I arrived here a year ago) have no way to know about these rulings otherwise. If you have them for this current situation, by all means, bring them forward so we can seem them. But we have no way to use those rulings if they aren't listed somewhere (which is why I started the Court Decisions in the first place).I was not aware, that people rule PwT in a different way we are used to. Therefor I didn't mention it. Sorry but I don't have the time to look up any post of the past, I can only say: "There has been a ruling." You must simply believe me. BTW, there is no reason, why I should bring an evidence, I'm not a guy who cheats. I have no problem with the fight, but the discussion shows that the spell can be read in the two different ways. Mindwanderer ruled in Sauro's favor (which is reasonable), not knowing that the spell has been used in the past differently. The only thing, I dislike, is that he didn't ask me why I thought PwT works, just implying, that I don't know the rules. If he worte only one PM, I would have told him or I would have changed the tactic to a not-use of the potion, to leave this issue to later discussion. As I said, I'm not asking for a rerun, I'm just complaning about this behaviour. Mindwanderer, I have nothing against you, but just wanted to spell out my feelings.It goes on for a while (here (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-653446.html)), but the relevant remaining posts are: I can edit out the use of the potion if you like, it's obviously not a big deal. If there were a Court Decision regarding the precedent I obviously wouldn't have done it that way (although I would disagree with it). Others have made my arguments just as well as I could have. I would just add one thing, about the chemical molecules being transmitted on the wind. The way I see it is that those molecules are like photons. Pass without Trace prevents you from leaving a trail--you don't disrupt the ground or leave any part of yourself behind on the environment. But photons reflecting directly off of your body and landing on someone's retina are still perceived, because you're not invisible. It's something coming directly off your body. So the same logic seems to me to apply to scent--you don't leave a scent trace on anything as you pass by it, but chemical molecules emitted directly from your body to someone's nostrils are still perceived. In general, I don't usually see pitlords inform players when they have the rules wrong, unless it forces them to use dramatically different strategies. For instance, summoners expecting to have their neutral summoned creatures be able to attack despite Protection from Evil. Since I had no idea that there was a precedent regarding this, I never had any idea that someone other that Pittbull would interpret the spell that way. I feel I was justified in simply thinking he had made a mistake. Of course, he was also justified in assuming the spell worked the way he thought it did, as well. That is because "Track" is the only game mechanic given for scent, which was the gist of my argument. What other Scent mechanic could they have possibly referred to, other than Track, since none is given in the SRD?Actually, this is not true. Scent allows you to do two things described by the rules: Track someone using Survival, or perceive them directly (within 30 feet). You do make a good point here, but it's one that has been made before: the CoCo environment makes certain effects more valuable than others. If the CoCo were the core game of D&D, I'm sure there would be spells (and items) that would mask scent, just as there would be more items that grant See Invisibility. Invisibility is such a major component of CoCo strategy that the effects that surround it are of much greater importance to us than it is to most D&D players. But we play the cards we're dealt. (@TheMagister: BTW, I happen to be male. However, I find it refreshing that you assumed I was female--most people refer to someone with undisclosed gender in the masculine by default.)@MindWandererB: No need to edit the fight, I can accept the loss. It was the third time Kracknol and Barthleby crossed the swords and this time it was the duergars fortune to win, no problem. I just wanted to point out that I didn't write stupid tactics. ;)Let me be the first to agree that you are not one who I would ever accuse of cheating. If I implied that in any way, it was not intentional. All I meant by my comment was to point out that we have no way of knowing of past rulings if we can't see them somewhere. It's not that I don't believe you, but I have to be able to see it in order to see the logic behind that ruling in order to uphold or overturn it. Also, I need to see these things so that I can update the Court Decisions as they come up. As I stated...that was the reason I started the Court Decisions...prior to its creation (as you may remember), we were constantly coming up with rulings that had been made in the past that only a handful of people knew about due to our membership churning. Now, all of the rulings can clearly be seen in one place, regardless of who made them or when they were made, and everyone has the same point of reference. Again....I don't doubt that the ruling was made as you said, but in the absence of an old post or something similar, I can only issue a ruling based on the information at hand. And to respond to your other request, yes, I will add it to the Court Decisions when I do my next update.That was pretty much the end of it.
whitebaron 01-03-08, 05:36 PM	@tdd: i would not do that. after all, this game is about character optimization, not short-lived alliances. if you want to do this, may i suggest a game of pbm - diplomacy. about sportsmanlike conduct: it would also have been fair to wait for rith to change the outcome of the ffa, instead of updating it while durz and rith expected the fight to be changed again. so, if you want to - try. gwerdans tactics are away and neither me nor any of my characters would ever do such a thing. it feels like cheating the concept. @mcj: well, the most things you ever proposed were like "let's don't use x in this fight", and you proposed it to your enemy. this is way different to me, but the problem is: many times, certain spells or effects are really what your character is built around - so most of the times, you just can't say "lets go without invis" - like it was durz's only way to alpha strike, while thorell had other options as well.
McJarvis 01-03-08, 05:40 PM	Haha- good times. That was back when TM thought MWB was a girl :) edit- @WB: The durz thing was a different matter[I was saving templer a headache rather than conserving resources or trying to optimize. Durz cares more about winning than I do, so he stayed his ground. It's all good.] I'm more referring to fights mort was in. [which was long before your time]
templer10 01-03-08, 06:30 PM	Haha- good times. That was back when TM thought MWB was a girl :) edit- @WB: The durz thing was a different matter[I was saving templer a headache rather than conserving resources or trying to optimize. Durz cares more about winning than I do, so he stayed his ground. It's all good.] I'm more referring to fights mort was in. [which was long before your time] good thing 2 - i get mean when peeps play the avoidance game 2 much.
templer10 01-03-08, 06:32 PM	I think you'll find that most players in CoCo are anti-games of politics. Every time I've offered a deal to an opponent to save resources/ally/etc I've been shot down, even if it was evenly good for both gladiators. :( Try offering me one - There's a decent chance Ill agree - Altrhough iam usually the type of player that If he has trouble winning - throws gold on the problem until it dies.
Nabuchadnezzar 01-03-08, 07:38 PM	Can I change my equipment before my 1st battle? For example, I have a potion of pass without trace and I'd like to change it with a potion of hide from animals because I intend to use the potion to avoid animal scent, and just now I read that pass without trace is not the right spell. Can I change it or I'm not allowed to do that?
lonewolf 01-03-08, 07:41 PM	Yes youre allowed to change everything on your character up until the deadline on next wednesday.
McJarvis 01-03-08, 08:00 PM	What are the rules for a gladiator crawling? Is it hampered movement?(half speed?)
MindWandererB 01-03-08, 08:11 PM	What are the rules for a gladiator crawling? Is it hampered movement?(half speed?) You wish. I can't find it in RAW for some reason, but:The only “normal” movement allowed while prone is to crawl 5 feet as a move action that provokes attacks of opportunity.
MindWandererB 01-03-08, 08:13 PM	Edit: Ah, there it is: Crawling: You can crawl 5 feet as a move action. Crawling incurs attacks of opportunity from any attackers who threaten you at any point of your crawl.
Nabuchadnezzar 01-03-08, 08:17 PM	Yes youre allowed to change everything on your character up until the deadline on next wednesday. Everything that can be changed... I can't change ability scores, skill points, feats, or the like, I hope :D Okay, let's change that potion... What about selling objects? If you can change a potion for a different potion (provided they have the same cost), how does selling item work? :)
MindWandererB 01-03-08, 08:20 PM	Everything that can be changed... I can't change ability scores, skill points, feats, or the like, I hope :D Okay, let's change that potion... What about selling objects? If you can change a potion for a different potion (provided they have the same cost), how does selling item work? :) Actually, yes, everything. Before your first fight, your character doesn't technically exist. Only after your character is paired once does it get "locked in," although you can still request moderate changes in the Training Hall as long as you're still ECL 3. Otherwise, all items are sold at half purchase price.
lonewolf 01-03-08, 08:21 PM	Actually since it is a new character you can change everything before your very first battle. After that you can sell old equipment for half price and use that money to buy something else.
The Dread Dormammu 01-03-08, 08:31 PM	about sportsmanlike conduct: it would also have been fair to wait for rith to change the outcome of the ffa, instead of updating it while durz and rith expected the fight to be changed again. Wait I don't understand what you mean? Were they going to re-run the last FFA? And if so, why would it matter if I updated my sheet or not? This is the first I have heard of this.
Nabuchadnezzar 01-03-08, 08:42 PM	Actually since it is a new character you can change everything before your very first battle. After that you can sell old equipment for half price and use that money to buy something else. Ok, I got it ;) So I am in time to change something if it seems wrong or just a bad deal... Taking a look at my strategy, do you think that Calidor Tyrbelel is a good character or does he have barely any chance of surviving? :D Really thank you guys ;)
Zevox 01-03-08, 11:27 PM	Ok, I got it ;) So I am in time to change something if it seems wrong or just a bad deal... Taking a look at my strategy, do you think that Calidor Tyrbelel is a good character or does he have barely any chance of surviving? :D Really thank you guys ;) Hes a pretty solid looking character. Fairly standard warrior type, but thats to be expected from your first character. We actually had a pretty similar character who went undefeated until level 6 back not too long after I joined (I remember my old Druid nearly beat him in an FFA, then lost in the re-run). The one thing I'd worry about is your will save. Low-level wizards and clerics like hitting warrior types with sleep, color spray, and hold person to effectively save-or-die them. Sleep obviously doesn't bother you due to being an Elf, but the others do, especially color spray since you don't get your racial boost vs enchantments on it. And of course as levels go on, other things show up, such as augmented Ego Whips from Psions. Theres not much you can do about those though. Other notes: don't expect to get much, if any, use out of the throwing axe and javelins. Range penalties one those just hurt too much in our environment, and a composite longbow is basically better in every way. Stealthy may not be the best feat to take either, since there are many things better suited to warriors than a mere +2 to a pair of skills, and characters need to be very heavily stealth-oriented to be successful at it around here, especially once you hit level 5 and things like Arcane Sight and Touchsight show up on the casters. Many of the maps we have aren't conducive to hiding either (too much open space in the arena and temple maps, the sewer map is too straightforward line-of-sight wise, the cavern is too small to hide for long, and the plains map is near impossible to hide on effectively). You might also consider finding a way to boost your AC - 18 is mediocre, if passable at level 3, but fast becomes a liability. Tattoos of Force Screen are popular, if bad for the expendable cap. Potions of shield of faith are half the price, but also half the effectiveness. Once you have some cash from fights making your chain shirt +1 is a mere 1k gp, a wise investment. A level or two of Psychic Warrior could get you force screen from a dorje or memory, too, though of course I don't know if that works with your plan for the character (Psion or Wilder work too, but given your charisma and int, I'm betting they don't fit with your plan at all). Zevox
Thaylen 01-03-08, 11:56 PM	I have just put together my first character for this arena. My knowledge of the D&D rules is decent, but there is a lot more book keeping in this than I used to. I plan on playing a mage type character later on but the alternate rules I need for the build require credits, (two of the specialist alternate abilities to be exact). I'm not sure if this requires I spend 10 or 20 credits. But I ramble, the main point to this thread is to get input on Jog. Any info you have would be helpful, and some answers to the question in the first paragraph would be helpful as well. Oh and one other thing, I have taken a look at how some of the fights are pitlorded. Is having battles under my belt a requirement for pitlording or can I just jump in. I can do most low level stuff off of the top of my head, but I am a quite capable of looking things up. Thank you in advance for your time and help.
TelinArtho 01-04-08, 12:07 AM	You are always welcome to try your hand at pitlording. I might recommend watching for a week - but really the only way to know what it is like is to do it. For the alternate material - if it is two separate items (say battle sorcerer and the variant sorcerer (drop familiar, gain animal companion) - that would be two 10-credit items for a total of 20 credits. Each variant specialist ability is a 10-credit item - so most likely you are looking at a 20 credit cost. For your character, it should be noted that while powerful build does allow the half-giant to be treated as large for some cases, it does not allow the half-giant be considered large for the purposes of unarmed strikes. In your equipment, I think you mean to have a "Ring of Protection +1" rather than a ring of mage armor - since the latter doesn't exist and the former would explain the +1 deflection bonus in your AC line. Personal range tattoos cost double a regular tattoo - so the tattoos of skate should be 100gp each, not 50gp. I know the target line of the power might indicate otherwise - but this is a specific item that comes up fairly frequently - if you would prefer confirmation on this - please refer to the courtroom decisions - as it is included specifically in there. Good luck with your character. If you have further questions, please do not hesitate to ask here in the tavern.
Thaylen 01-04-08, 12:25 AM	Thanks for the help. One other question. Does enlarge person work on half-giants? The target says one humanoid, but Half-giants are of the giant type.
Hirumajoe 01-04-08, 12:42 AM	As you note, Half-Giants are not humanoid, so no, Enlarge Person doesn't work on them. However, the Psionic Power Expansion does. Unfortunately, getting it in tattoo form tends to be expensive (It lasts 1 round unaugmented, and costs 300 gp in the augmented 30 minute form). Grabbing levels in Psychic Warrior or Psionic Fist might make it a reasonable power to manifest.
Thaylen 01-04-08, 02:07 AM	You mentioned the Psionic Fist Prestige class. In the prereqs it lists the Wild Talent feat as a prereq for the class. Can a half-giant (or any other naturally psionic character) use their naturally psionic racial trait to qualify instead? The description for Wild talent and Naturally psionic are nearly identical.
MindWandererB 01-04-08, 03:15 AM	Nope. If you need the feat, you need the feat. Not even Psionic Talent would meet that requirement. There are several half-giant monks or part-monks in our history. You may want to poke around and see what similar characters have had problems with. From experience, I know that ranged attackers will be a problem--most of them are either snipers (which will bypass Deflect Arrows) or have Rapid Shot (you can only deflect one). A bow will help--note that the giant type grants proficiency in all martial weapons (SRD: Monsters->Types, Subtypes, and Special Abilities->Giant). Compression + Animal Affinity (Dex) or Cat's Grace + Deflect Arrows help up for the half-giant's problem with missile weapons. At any rate, a Large light crossbow does only 2d6, not 2d8. I have a request: could someone write up a tutorial/flow chart on sniping the way we've resolved it? Those rules have been overturned so many times I have a hard time remembering what the most recent ruling is. And I'm just a smidge irritated that it always seems like sniping is easier when I'm the melee guy, and harder when I'm the sniper.
Stormwind 01-04-08, 03:24 AM	I have a request: could someone write up a tutorial/flow chart on sniping the way we've resolved it? Those rules have been overturned so many times I have a hard time remembering what the most recent ruling is. And I'm just a smidge irritated that it always seems like sniping is easier when I'm the melee guy, and harder when I'm the sniper. @MWB: I could write up a tutorial on sniping, but it would largely be from when I had Cyra active and I'm not sure on what changes (if any) have occurred since then. However I'm still happy to write it up if we don't have any other players with more recent snipers volunteering to do so.
MindWandererB 01-04-08, 03:35 AM	@MWB: I could write up a tutorial on sniping, but it would largely be from when I had Cyra active and I'm not sure on what changes (if any) have occurred since then. However I'm still happy to write it up if we don't have any other players with more recent snipers volunteering to do so. Yeah, I don't think we're using the same rules anymore (although we may have switched away from those rules and then back to them). I think someone who's been keeping up with that conversation would need to do it.
Thaylen 01-04-08, 06:13 AM	Thank you once again for your help. Corrections are good (they keep me from looking like an ass). I just got one more thing I need to find. How much for a table? Yes a simple wooden table. Would I have to go to the black market for one?
Nabuchadnezzar 01-04-08, 07:01 AM	For the purpose of magic-psionic transparency, eleves do gain bonus on saving throw also against telepathy powers (from the SRD below). So my Barbarian will still have poor will, but a +2 bonus against that ego whip. I want to build a good elf warrior type, but I see your point. For my experience, a defense oriented character is better suited to survive than an offense oriented one. Maybe it's time to switch on monk instead (as I took barbarian levels for fast movement and uncanny dodge rather than rage). Monks are the best suited for defense, and I see a lot of psionic users here. Psionic Hole will be my lifesaver for my low charisma, I think. Telepathy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#telepathy) Telepathy powers can spy on and affect the minds of others, influencing or controlling their behavior. Most telepathy powers are mind-affecting. For the purpose of psionics-magic transparency, telepathy powers are equivalent to powers of the enchantment school (thus, creatures resistant to enchantment spells are equally resistant to telepathy powers).
hogarth 01-04-08, 07:40 AM	@Zevox: Speaking of things that went on while you were gone, we had another meeting of the "I Hate Monster Fights" club. While that is not interesting by itself, TelinArtho collected some stats on monster fights. You can see them here in spreadsheet form: http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pRmR5A2K8wZqJ-GLV5z_kLw You can read in whatever you want into them. Pro monster fights: Monsters win less than half the time, so monster fights are reasonable. Anti monster fights: Monsters win less than half the time because there are some real chumps in the monster lists (big mobs of weak monsters, animals, monsters with PC classes, and assorted other losers like the gibbering mouther). So winning or losing is like a coin toss.
Nabuchadnezzar 01-04-08, 08:41 AM	Do monks lose their status if they use poisons, as manual states that poison purchase and possession is always illegal?
hogarth 01-04-08, 09:43 AM	Do monks lose their status if they use poisons, as manual states that poison purchase and possession is always illegal? In the CoCo, you never have to worry about acting contrary to your alignment (AFAIK). Of course, paladins still have a code of conduct they need to follow and good clerics still can't cast spells with the [Evil] descriptor (e.g.) but generally what happens in the arena is neither inherently good nor evil from an alignment point of view (IMO).
CrazyArtificer 01-04-08, 11:23 AM	Borak Skullcrasher is available to be hired, if someone is interested (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14741381&postcount=59)
Zevox 01-04-08, 11:30 AM	Do monks lose their status if they use poisons, as manual states that poison purchase and possession is always illegal? In addition to what hogarth said, note that a lawful alignment does not mean you follow all laws, just that you have a generally orderly view on life and/or perhaps your own code of conduct that you follow to the letter. I'm sure nobody would blink if a lawful evil character used poison, and I don't see any problem with a lawful neutral one using it either, or even lawful good with the right motivation/circumstances. Zevox
whitebaron 01-04-08, 11:42 AM	also, lawful only means abiding by the laws of your society. raiding a foreign country might be truly lawful, as might be using poison, given the right circumstances. Lelenia enters the tavern. Any gentleman present, to invite a lady to a drink and protect her from the foul stench of some of the arena thugs?
TelinArtho 01-04-08, 11:53 AM	Borak Skullcrasher is available to be hired, if someone is interested (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14741381&postcount=59) Thank you for your submission artificer. I guess I'll take this time to remind everyone that in order to see more and new mercs in the roster, all you need to do is let me know which ones you are interested in adding (on a one-at-a-time basis). I will then audit the merc, get the necessary changes (if any) and move forward. The process is simple. Step 1: Person A proposes a mercenary and posts a correct sheet in the "Propose a Mercenary" thread. Step 2: Person B (who is not Person A) reviews the mercenaries available and the mercenaries proposed and finds that a role is not covered that s/he would like to see covered. S/he asks for the mercenary that was proposed by Player A to be added to the Mercenary Roster. Step 3: Elder A (TelinArtho at present) performs a thorough audit on the proposed mercenary. Assuming it passes the audit (with few, if any, changes), Elder A then reviews the role(s) of the character and researches whether they are already covered. Assuming they are not - the mercenary is added to the roster and is available as of the next pairings. Simple process for a simple benefit. In addition to proposing new mercenaries - it may be necessary to replace mercenaries that go unused or that are desired to be replaced. The process here is the same as the above, except that a proposed replacement also needs a proposed removal on the current roster.
CrazyArtificer 01-04-08, 12:08 PM	Thank you for your submission artificer. I guess I'll take this time to remind everyone that in order to see more and new mercs in the roster, all you need to do is let me know which ones you are interested in adding (on a one-at-a-time basis). I will then audit the merc, get the necessary changes (if any) and move forward. You're welcome, TelinArtho. I plan to add more over time, even higher level ones. A question. Can I submit a couple of mercs (say 2 ECL 1) as a single ECL 2 merc team? I'd also like to see Gunnor Thwappen (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=8033768#post8033768) approved
CrazyArtificer 01-04-08, 12:15 PM	Uranedal hears a beautiful voice overcoming the noise of the tavern. He looks towards the door and sees the nice-looking half-elf which just entered. Excuse me for a while, Snaga. I'll be back soon. He stands up and slowly walks towards Lelenia. Well we could start with a drink, and talk about what kind of protection you need, mylady. Bowing Let me introduce myself: I'm Uranedal, master of Arcane arts and reknown sculpter, at your service.
hogarth 01-04-08, 12:18 PM	Lelenia enters the tavern. Any gentleman present, to invite a lady to a drink and protect her from the foul stench of some of the arena thugs? "Milady!" Reginald sweeps into the tavern closely on the half-elf's heels followed by his protegee Myoxus who seems on the brink of collapse from exhaustion. The livid handprint on his cheek is already beginning to redden. "I meant no offense, I assure you. I merely thought I recognised you from a colour plate in a curious volume of lore I unearthed in my researches. I believe this quaint tome was called Lusty Lyrandar Lasses, Part XIV. Of course, the young lady's face was partially obscured, but I'm sure I could use other distinguishing marks to confirm or deny my suspicion that it was you."
whitebaron 01-04-08, 01:29 PM	I'll take the seat and the drink, but i doubt you could do much against that particular piece of elf, my dear Uranedal. Not only is he twice your size, he even seems to be some kind of local noble.. (or should i say, part or the wannabe nobility?) She turns around before taking a seat, looks Reginald in the eyes, and says cruelly, and silently: anywhere in Korvaire, and I'd have your head for this. You are lucky we are in Gladius. Loudly: You must have a great deal of such literature at home, so why don't you go home, and look at other lives, while we live ours? Without further ado, she sits, and waits.
dulsi 01-04-08, 01:38 PM	"Better get her a strong drink, boys. Next time she'll know better than to take something that not hers," yells a human seated at a table with another warrior. "Best fighter we got." "Too bad that other one escaped," comments the other human. "No matter. With the profit from the slave, we'll be able to purchase more," snapped the first man.
CrazyArtificer 01-04-08, 01:51 PM	Size doesn't matters, mylady. If the elf you are talking about is the one who just stepped in, I guess you really need protection. Luckily for you I'm here with two friends of mine, Snaga and Vallgar Uranedal makes a beck to both to have them come closer and then sits down Uranedal hears the two men speaking loudly and decides the discussion seems interesting. He tries to listen to more pieces of that conversation What would you like to drink? says, while keeping an eye on Reginald.
whitebaron 01-04-08, 02:03 PM	Elven wine will do, but about your arr... companions - She looks rather irritated at the skeleton - You sure all 3 of them are trustworthy? Where i come from, we take our friends to the grave, not to the necromancer. One can clearly see shivers running across her skin and her face displays disgust, which though she tries to hide it, can be seen openly.
TelinArtho 01-04-08, 02:23 PM	The skeleton gets up and looks incredulously at the woman. He starts approaching her, drawing his sword in offense to the statement. Vallgar is quick to get up and stop his friend though. You should watch your words m'lady. Not all skeletons are deaf and mute you know. And not all of them have friends such as myself to stop them from leveling your shoulders off. Come Turon - let us have a good game of dominos to calm your nerves. Vallgar spits in disgust at the woman in finality and settles back into his booth. He calls for a waitress to bring him a set of dominoes promptly.
CrazyArtificer 01-04-08, 02:30 PM	As soon as the waitress come close, Uranedal takes the chance to order a bottle of elven wine. You see, mylady, while these friends may not look innocent like little children they are surely able to protect you. And I certainly repute them trustworthy, to the point I'm going to ask them to travel with me in the following weeks. You should relax and maybe tell us something about you.. would you?
Hirumajoe 01-04-08, 03:45 PM	Yeah, I don't think we're using the same rules anymore (although we may have switched away from those rules and then back to them). I think someone who's been keeping up with that conversation would need to do it. I think I should be able to do that. Perhaps this weekend. (In which case I might be able to go over with you in person, depending on schedule.) On another note, I'm considering asking for a full 3 week quest for Valen Sky in the near future, focused on a search for the current status (dead? alive? mindless? undead?) of his parents. Hopefully, many evil elves will be killed in this search... I was wondering if any one would be interested in doing the quest lording, and if anyone wanted to come along. The more the party members the merrier. :) Quest goals could also be changed if necessary for RP to make sense.
TelinArtho 01-04-08, 04:36 PM	You're welcome, TelinArtho. I plan to add more over time, even higher level ones. A question. Can I submit a couple of mercs (say 2 ECL 1) as a single ECL 2 merc team? I'd also like to see Gunnor Thwappen (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=8033768#post8033768) approved Ask and ye shall receive. Gunnor is now available to be hired for the prime cost of 100gp per fight. Remember - you cannot hire mercs before ECL5.
whitebaron 01-04-08, 04:53 PM	i have to say it: i hate flying mounts. and everything that flies. people tend to think of them as universal soldiers - but actually, they are totally limited. doing the math on them in a map as the forest is really painful - especially if every turn (and you can only make 90° worth of turns) costs speed... *rant*
MindWandererB 01-04-08, 05:02 PM	Thank you once again for your help. Corrections are good (they keep me from looking like an ass). I just got one more thing I need to find. How much for a table? Yes a simple wooden table. Would I have to go to the black market for one?Your best bet would be to buy a tower shield. It's the closest thing to a table that has a price. Although I don't think anyone would have an objection to your buying a table that actually has legs for the price of a tower shield. It partially depends on what you want to use it for (and if you're considering something exotic, it's best to get it cleared before you test it in the arena).
TelinArtho 01-04-08, 05:09 PM	i have to say it: i hate flying mounts. and everything that flies. people tend to think of them as universal soldiers - but actually, they are totally limited. doing the math on them in a map as the forest is really painful - especially if every turn (and you can only make 90° worth of turns) costs speed... *rant* First off, turns don't cost speed unless they are specifically making sharp turns (as in they need to do a tight bank). That said, most flying creatures of large size have a pretty hard time flying in the forest at all (due to our house rule of need double the horizontal base) - and medium and smaller creatures only take up one square - so are generally more manageable. The biggest issue for me with flying is dealing with the changing heights - but even there - most opponents don't employ fly-by-attack tactics - especially when they are restricted by the map like in the forest.
whitebaron 01-04-08, 05:27 PM	what? double the base? so basically, nothing can fly in the forest? i'll ignore i ever read that, and continue my fight... but how is that supposed to be a correct rule? i guess it was some kind of nerfing against abuse? or some cat-ish rule? i can't think of anything else that should justify any such house rule. still, turning with average maneuverability costs 5ft speed PER 45° turn.
Stormwind 01-04-08, 05:42 PM	Incorporeal creatures have no problems flying in the forest ;)
McJarvis 01-04-08, 05:43 PM	Catish rule. Funny that that phrase is appropriate. Yeah- cat decided it didn't make sense that large creatures with wingspans could fly in 10 ft alleys.
Hirumajoe 01-04-08, 05:46 PM	@Whitebaron: Actually, no it doesn't cost 5' per 45 degree turn. Only if you try to turn a total of 90 degrees in one space does it cost extra. Otherwise, given the listings, Poor and Clumsy flyers wouldn't be able to turn at all. :) From the SRD: Turn How much the creature can turn after covering the stated distance. Turn in Place A creature with good or average maneuverability can use some of its speed to turn in place. An Average manueverability creature has a 45°/5 ft listing for Turn and a +45°/-5 ft listing for Turn in place, and a 90 degree maximum turn. As for the double the horizontal space, thats a Cat-ish rule.
MindWandererB 01-04-08, 06:05 PM	Catish rule. Funny that that phrase is appropriate. Yeah- cat decided it didn't make sense that large creatures with wingspans could fly in 10 ft alleys. It's a rule I have extremely mixed feelings about. On one hand, it's totally invented. By RAW, a 20-foot wingspan doesn't prevent you from flying in a 10-foot-wide corridor. On the other hand, Cat's right in that this is absolutely ridiculous. Even though it's a complete invention, the house rule makes sense. It also fulfils Cat's intended purpose of making it so that folks like Pegasus- and Griffon-riders will only have a huge mobility advantage on most maps instead of all of them. For these reasons, I've never advocated for removing it, and I'm not currently inclined to. (It's also worth pointing out that our forest doesn't resemble a RAW forest by any stretch of the imagination. Try building one using the guidelines in the DMG and you'll see it's not even close. A flyer of any size with a maneuverability less than perfect would have a problem in one of those. But this does more closely resemble a "prototypical" forest. I'm open to suggestions for forest-specific rules for flyers to make the pitlords' lives easier.) And also speaking of maps: Is anyone good at creating them? I don't really have time, but we could use a few more. Specifically, we'll need a couple of roughly triangular maps for certain nonstandard Challenges. I've also always wanted a Mountain map (to make use of the terrain features that our current maps don't use, like rubble and ice--and moving the lava from the temple to the mountain would make a lot of sense). Does anyone have Dundjinni or Fractal Mapper and the time to make one or more attractive maps that meet these criteria? REMINDER The forums will be down on Monday for an unspecified amount of time. All pitlords, be sure to download all your character sheets and tactics on Sunday if you plan to run the fights on Monday.
whitebaron 01-04-08, 06:22 PM	the problem i see with this house rule, is that wings are not always given with the creatures entry + their wingspan. also, being a large creature does not automatically mean to have a wingspan of 20ft. - a hippogriff is a creature like a horse, it is actually quite small for a large creature. no way this EVER could have 20ft wingspan. just because some creatures have bigger wings than their size, does in no way relate to such a house rule. its more of an indicator the monster designers did not give it the proper size.
TelinArtho 01-04-08, 06:30 PM	Ummm... A typical hippogriff is 9 feet long, has a wingspan of 20 feet, and weighs 1,000 pounds. I agree that it is an ugly house rule, but, like MWB, I'm not happy with removing it unless we deal with a way to restrict flying in the sewers and forest in a similar way (since those two maps were designed to specifically hinder flying creatures).
templer10 01-04-08, 06:35 PM	but how is that supposed to be a correct rule? i guess it was some kind of nerfing against abuse? or some cat-ish rule? i can't think of anything else that should justify any such house rule. Yup - it's All Cat's Idia using the GMtm stick after harvey (harvester) almost lost in the Sewer to hood. And i wouldn't reccomend ignorering that rule (or any other) - The fighters involved might object to that... on another hand - anything winged trying to fly in the forest (exept the swamp area in the middle ) is something that is doomed to failure and as a pitlord i would safely assume after a few rounds to just have the charcter realized it's a doomed attempt.
templer10 01-04-08, 06:41 PM	About flying in the Sewers - Since we are doing house rules anyway - why not Invent one that instead of large creatures not being able to fly in there - say that In order to better navigate tight Corridors winged flying creatures can only fly at half their speed - This way Flyers can fly - if slower. The speed limitation will achieve the same limitation as not being able to fly at all - limit the speed of flyers but also gives back some advantage to flyers since the act of flying itself in opposite to walking can sometimes has an advantage. Ill point out that some flying mounts (giant eagle, giant owl) are all but usless if they can't fly due to their very slow land speed.
Durzulgor 01-04-08, 08:29 PM	Could any1 tell me how many credits (if any at all) it would cost for Durzulgor I (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14312161#post14312161) to change the feat he just gained (psionic talent)? He leveled up before his last fight (which is more or less still running) and never actually used it (he got enough pps to cast the vigor he used this fight just from leveling up). I'd rather have a psicrystal instead.
Nabuchadnezzar 01-04-08, 08:54 PM	Calidor Tyrbelel has been reincarnated by a powerful outer plane druid, now he is a deep halfling druid! :D I thought this: If I need really strong melee, why can't I just summon something before engaging tough guys? And for archery, it's just as good if I throw bullets or magic pebbles, or a flame :D A strengthen druid & dog will be useful in melee too :P What do you think about it? :D
McJarvis 01-04-08, 09:12 PM	Halfling druid with a riding dog that uses produce flame as it's main attack? I don't recall ever seeing that before. ;) You have stumbled upon an archtype for CoCo.
Zevox 01-04-08, 09:31 PM	Halfling druid with a riding dog that uses produce flame as it's main attack? I don't recall ever seeing that before. ;) You have stumbled upon an archtype for CoCo. Indeed. All it needs now is to trade the dog for a Dire Bat at level 4. Re: Winged flier house rule - its certainly an unusual rule, but its one of the few ones Cat implemented that way that I fully support personally. It takes care of the nonsense of creatures with a 20' wingspan flying in the narrow alleys of the forest/city/sewer while not being too complex or requiring the exact wingspan of every flier to be specified. Simple, effective, and sensible. ...and yeah, if whitebaron didn't know that, I'm afraid Mithos vs Balthazar may have some problems. I had thought he knew, and wrote my tactics under that assumption. Zevox
Nabuchadnezzar 01-04-08, 09:40 PM	Sigh, I am a new gladiator here... and I just made a copy of another gladiator... sob :weep: Is there any phrenic paladin out there? :D
Zevox 01-04-08, 10:00 PM	Sigh, I am a new gladiator here... and I just made a copy of another gladiator... sob :weep: Is there any phrenic paladin out there? :D Actually, yes. I'm pretty sure lonewolf has one that just hit level 4, Erithmu used to have a phrenic Paladin/Cleric, and I've had a prototype phrenic Paladin sitting in a word document on my computer for probably half a year or more now. Don't worry too much about it, theres not much that hasn't been done at some point around here, so no one expects you to come up with something totally new, especially with your first character. The Halfling Druid you just hit upon just happens to be one of perhaps the three biggest character archetypes from the history of the CoCo (Halfling Druid on a Riding Dog/Dire Bat, Half-Giant Monk grapple monkey [usually with Psychic Warrior levels], and Grey Elf Kineticist or Diviner are the ones that stick out in my mind as most common). Zevox
Nabuchadnezzar 01-05-08, 01:15 AM	okay, so I'm going to change another time :D Now it's time to wield psychic power! Gray Elf Egoist 3!!! :D I hope this is not the fourth best known this time :P
whitebaron 01-05-08, 06:28 AM	well, about half the casting coco population seems to be gray elves, though. ;) @zevox: yes, the fight has many problems according to that. still i think it's fair game, since the same non-restrictions were applied to both.
Nabuchadnezzar 01-05-08, 07:10 AM	it's not my fault if they are the one race available with an INT bonus and NO la :rolleyes: Can I let 200 arrows at home and take 40 of them for the 2nd fight? Or must I take everything with me before the 1st combat starts?
whitebaron 01-05-08, 07:35 AM	you can swap at home equipment to your actual equipment between any fight, but there are two exceptions: 1) you cannot store any expendables "at home". expendables is limited to potions, scrolls, powerstones, tattoos. 2) if you craft something as free activity, you only get it at the end of your 3FC. Same applies to gather information and discount free activities. still, 40 arrows is not much. if you can afford the weight, i'd take a bit more than that.
CrazyArtificer 01-05-08, 08:25 AM	it's not my fault if they are the one race available with an INT bonus and NO la Yes, it's true.. but you can always take a different race and age it.. Certainly, after some time all the good combos have already been taken, so rather than trying to distinguish through class and stats one can always try to find new creative spell uses (Durzulgor just greased a saddle for the first time in CoCo last week). Comunque benvenuto a bordo, è bello vedere un altro Italiano :) Welcome aboard, nice to see another Italian.
Durzulgor 01-05-08, 08:40 AM	Muhaha, multi-classing (http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/5243/funpics12440qs1.jpg), just soooo true! ;-) And THAT (http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/9598/suessetierpics15gz9.jpg) explains Durzulgor I's alignment!
McJarvis 01-05-08, 08:56 AM	RE: Saddle- I'm pretty sure I've seen that in CoCo before. Not all things raise rules questions the first time they're used :) A _good_ example would be prescience, offensive- this has been used with magic missile before, but didn't raise eyebrows until I used it with ego whip recently. [I feel like the current CoCo population is "ruling-happy"...I've been dragged to the courtroom almost every week for the last month on various things] I think the only "original" builds out there nowadays are ones that focus on UA material- mostly because it hasn't been around very long, and because it's so costly to use. Don't sweat using someone else's idea- we all do it. [Take my "Marius" character for example- Zevox already did the mounted goblin nomad thing]
CrazyArtificer 01-05-08, 09:15 AM	This page-caching is driving me nuts.. the page isn't updating and I can't even quote.. @McJarvis. You are probably right, but when I searched for grease+saddle with the forum engine I didn't find anything in particular, but I didn't check the whole battles thread, honestly :) A good side-effect of using more or less the same "archetypes PCs" is that one can really see the difference good tactics can do.
whitebaron 01-05-08, 09:51 AM	in my opinion, coco is not generally about build optimization. while there are lots of things builds can or cannot achieve, tactics take at least 20% of each win.
McJarvis 01-05-08, 10:00 AM	If CoCo was about optimization, then we'd see many more touch attack builds. [druid/produce flames, psions with dorjes, etc, etc]. If CoCo were about *winning*, we'd see many more alpha strike builds at lower levels, since hey- as long as I can win now it's a good build, right? :) Instead I think CoCo just means something different to each person that plays. I tend to like making unique builds that haven't been done before- or thematic builds that are "comic bookish" in nature.
CrazyArtificer 01-05-08, 10:09 AM	I'm toying with the idea of a gnome fighter.. maybe I'll create it some day.. I like CoCo to test strange builds and to learn some new tricks for my tt adventures. What's certain is that initially I thought it was just some kind of arena, but I've got a nice surprise seeing it's actually much more than that :)
MindWandererB 01-05-08, 04:21 PM	CoCo is sort of about experimental optimization--learning what works through trial rather than on paper. It did begin in the CharOp forum, remember. @Nezzar: There have been a couple of egoists in the past, but they've all been warrior-types. Loddick Saffrion, PsiBeast, and Longshot's cohort all fit this description. As Zevox said--the possibility space of the CoCo does have some limitations; most of the "obviously" good builds have been done before. Only a few of us try to be truly innovative, and I'd say more than half of those fall flat (and cost a lot of credits). @Artificer: I've sundered a saddle before....
CrazyArtificer 01-05-08, 04:38 PM	speaking of concepts.. Can I use the ranger combat style (TWF) to qualify for Improved and Greater TWF feats? I was reading the srd and I can't see any penalty for multiclass characters.. is there any penalty on CoCo for those? EDIT: found in the Courtroom of Gladius.
Salrantol 01-05-08, 04:46 PM	speaking of concepts.. Can I use the ranger combat style (TWF) to qualify for Improved and Greater TWF feats?Yes, but you can only use them when you have access to Two-Weapon Fighting, so if you wear heavy armor, you lose all three.
CrazyArtificer 01-05-08, 04:57 PM	Yes, but you can only use them when you have access to Two-Weapon Fighting, so if you wear heavy armor, you lose all three. Actually, reading it better, even if you wear medium armor you lose the benefits of TWF. Guess a Mithral Breastplate is the best thing you can wear in such a case.
Zevox 01-05-08, 05:37 PM	Actually, reading it better, even if you wear medium armor you lose the benefits of TWF. Guess a Mithral Breastplate is the best thing you can wear in such a case. True, but with the high dex requirements for the TWF line of feats, a Mithril Breastplate or Mithril Chain Shirt is probably the sort of armor you'd want to be wearing anyway. Zevox
hogarth 01-05-08, 07:18 PM	@Nezzar: There have been a couple of egoists in the past, but they've all been warrior-types. Loddick Saffrion, PsiBeast, and Longshot's cohort all fit this description. Not all egoists are warrior-types -- Kilpquabjeg has never hit anyone with anything but spells/powers as far as I know.
Sjiggie 01-05-08, 07:33 PM	I'm going back to my home country on Monday and wanted to pick up the CoCo again. I created a well known concept of a Kineticist. He will stay a pure psion picking up feats like Craft dorje at fifth for the offensive dorjes he will use and others like empower power, enlarge power, psionic meditation. Does anybody has some suggestions for him?
Nabuchadnezzar 01-05-08, 08:13 PM	I found one xeph wizard only in the character list :D So I'm going to make a xeph wizard ;) @CrazyArtificer: Grazie! Chissà se ci scontreremo o uno di noi farà da pitlord all'altro... intanto vediamo di farci una buona reputazione a suon di vittorie :D Thanks! Who knows if we'll eventually meet on the battlefield or one will pitlord the other... meanwhile let's grow in glory, by battlefield wins :D
templer10 01-06-08, 04:58 AM	I'm going back to my home country on Monday and wanted to pick up the CoCo again. I created a well known concept of a Kineticist. He will stay a pure psion picking up feats like Craft dorje at fifth for the offensive dorjes he will use and others like empower power, enlarge power, psionic meditation. Does anybody has some suggestions for him? if you are planning to use Powers that need to hit rolls (which are more usefull then those that depend on saves in dorja's) you really should up your Dex and grave the psi shot line, If you want to concetrate on making the Save DC as high as possible i wouldnt bother with craft dorja at all and up your Int (gray elf, age etc). Doing it as half and half rarley work. look at lord lorian and longshot for details - each of them is for on of these types of psions. Lorian recent speciality is shooting distinigrates + GPS - 9d6 or 26d6 untyped for 11 pps is fun.
CrazyArtificer 01-06-08, 05:56 AM	I found one xeph wizard only in the character list :D So I'm going to make a xeph wizard ;) There ought to be a reason for that :) Just joking, it's not that bad after all.. you could even take a couple of psionic feats (if you can find some useful ones). if you are planning to use Powers that need to hit rolls (which are more usefull then those that depend on saves in dorja's) you really should up your Dex and grave the psi shot line, If you want to concetrate on making the Save DC as high as possible i wouldnt bother with craft dorja at all and up your Int (gray elf, age etc). Doing it as half and half rarley work. look at lord lorian and longshot for details - each of them is for on of these types of psions. Lorian recent speciality is shooting distinigrates + GPS - 9d6 or 26d6 untyped for 11 pps is fun. I agree with templer. I'm building a kineticist too (see my signature) and I'm going towards the DC route.. even though a gray elf looked a bit too cheesy to me :) A question on allies. If I have a character with, say, 10 allies and I prebuff just one for the first cycle. Can I prebuff a different one in the following cycle?
templer10 01-06-08, 06:28 AM	If I have a character with, say, 10 allies and I prebuff just one for the first cycle. Can I prebuff a different one in the following cycle? Yes - and you can even prebuff diffrent ones for each battle in the same cycle. how you are going to get 10 allies anyway? p.s - crazy - In a psion that is centered on DC, constitution should be much more importent to you then Dex, Or at the bery least get Con to 12, 9 HP is just painfull to think about at level 3. als- you dont actually need Strength for anything exept to carry stuff, so figure the absolute minimum you need (which is essentially armor weight + some for dorja's/potions etc) and stick with that.
Nabuchadnezzar 01-06-08, 06:39 AM	Before I started building my xeph wizard, I came back and thought: "why make something powerful or unique? Just make what you want to play for fun!" So I thought about Calidor Tyrbelel at the beginning: he was an elf and a master of the bow. He was a straight ranger, but I would like to add in real stealth and a bit of arcane magic. He will be a long range sniper, blessed by superior mobility. Not an Arcane Archer (who just increase bow mastery... a magic bow and a feat make rid of most of AA features), but a Shadowdancer, to hide in plain sight at distance and shoot arrows unseen. Shot on the run has the same prerequisite of the Shadowdancer, combat reflexes is a wasted feat but affordable with 2 fighter levels and related bonus feats, 3 bard levels will ensure arcane magic, bardic music, bardic knowledge and perform as a class skill. 2 ranger levels will let me use useful ranger wands and a useful feat, and are good for a starting sniper. I finally will be an Aquatic Elf (Fighter as favored class, superior low-light vision makes him better suited for my idea) Ranger 2 / Fighter 2 / Bard 3 / Shadowdancer 10 / Ranger 1 / Fighter 2
CrazyArtificer 01-06-08, 06:47 AM	Yes - and you can even prebuff diffrent ones for each battle in the same cycle. how you are going to get 10 allies anyway? Well.. one can always buy some and quest for the others, I guess p.s - crazy - In a psion that is centered on DC, constitution should be much more importent to you then Dex, Or at the bery least get Con to 12, 9 HP is just painfull to think about at level 3. als- you dont actually need Strength for anything exept to carry stuff, so figure the absolute minimum you need (which is essentially armor weight + some for dorja's/potions etc) and stick with that. This is my first psion ever, so I imagine I did some mistakes. The idea is to boost hp with Vigor. For example, with a manifestation of Vigor I can go to 24 hp (just like a rogue) or, if I overchannel it, to 29 (ranger) I agree that I probably have too much Str for such a pc. @Nab: when does your build power peak? Try to keep it somewhat balanced or you'll have an hard time leveling up.
McJarvis 01-06-08, 08:27 AM	Before I started building my xeph wizard, I came back and thought: "why make something powerful or unique? Just make what you want to play for fun!" So I thought about Calidor Tyrbelel at the beginning: he was an elf and a master of the bow. He was a straight ranger, but I would like to add in real stealth and a bit of arcane magic. He will be a long range sniper, blessed by superior mobility. Not an Arcane Archer (who just increase bow mastery... a magic bow and a feat make rid of most of AA features), but a Shadowdancer, to hide in plain sight at distance and shoot arrows unseen. Shot on the run has the same prerequisite of the Shadowdancer, combat reflexes is a wasted feat but affordable with 2 fighter levels and related bonus feats, 3 bard levels will ensure arcane magic, bardic music, bardic knowledge and perform as a class skill. 2 ranger levels will let me use useful ranger wands and a useful feat, and are good for a starting sniper. I finally will be an Aquatic Elf (Fighter as favored class, superior low-light vision makes him better suited for my idea) Ranger 2 / Fighter 2 / Bard 3 / Shadowdancer 10 / Ranger 1 / Fighter 2 Valen sky has showed some of the power of HiPS- especially with our lighting rules. Good luck with that. A *great* source of shadows, IMO, is a prebuff'd NPC services deeper darkness spell. It costs 150gp and lasts 1 whole 3FC- available at level 5. [you shouldn't need it until then anyway] PS- If you aim for a 50/50 win rate, as Telin does, you will be more pleased with your experience in CoCo. I used to shoot for 100% win rates, but I could never bring myself to arguing with pitlords constantly & having fights held over every week. I think to have a 100% win rate you _have_ to be a bully. [Lord knows Cat was- and I think he started that tradition.]
templer10 01-06-08, 08:47 AM	Valen sky has showed some of the power of HiPS- especially with our lighting rules. Good luck with that. A *great* source of shadows, IMO, is a prebuff'd NPC services deeper darkness spell. It costs 150gp and lasts 1 whole 3FC- available at level 5. [you shouldn't need it until then anyway] PS- If you aim for a 50/50 win rate, as Telin does, you will be more pleased with your experience in CoCo. I used to shoot for 100% win rates, but I could never bring myself to arguing with pitlords constantly & having fights held over every week. I think to have a 100% win rate you _have_ to be a bully. [Lord knows Cat was- and I think he started that tradition.] Iam close to 100% on my 3 best chars (90%+), Butwhere or not i argue about loses sort of depend on the loss- i have taken some of them in stride (since they really were my fault - like a week or so ago forgotteing PFE on a half celstial - yes i was an idio.. or a bad draw of the monster dice) but if there are mistakes on the pitlod part i do tend to insist on the fight to be done right - i dont consider it bulling.
templer10 01-06-08, 08:48 AM	Well.. one can always buy some and quest for the others, I guess This is my first psion ever, so I imagine I did some mistakes. The idea is to boost hp with Vigor. For example, with a manifestation of Vigor I can go to 24 hp (just like a rogue) or, if I overchannel it, to 29 (ranger) I agree that I probably have too much Str for such a pc. @Nab: when does your build power peak? Try to keep it somewhat balanced or you'll have an hard time leveling up. Vigor is nice and usefull - but you can't Always depend on it, and it is a hefty investment of PPS. also - overchanneling to get more vigor (unless you have talented) sort of defeats the purpose.
McJarvis 01-06-08, 08:51 AM	but if there are mistakes on the pitlod part i do tend to insist on the fight to be done right - i dont consider it bulling. The bullying I'm referring to is reinventing what your tactics mean in hindsight and not letting it go until the pitlord revises. I'm not entirely sure why you have fun with your characters- but I consider you one of the "good ones" in gladius because you just rely on straight up powerful mechanics, instead of developing your own way to make powerful characters in the courts :) [I consider builds better if they don't constantly use twinked tactics that need constant rulings]
CrazyArtificer 01-06-08, 08:55 AM	Vigor is nice and usefull - but you can't Always depend on it, and it is a hefty investment of PPS. also - overchanneling to get more vigor (unless you have talented) sort of defeats the purpose. Well, more of powerstones in Varuxor case :) And yes, he's a Talented guy ;) If you aim for a 50/50 win rate, as Telin does, you will be more pleased with your experience in CoCo. I used to shoot for 100% win rates, but I could never bring myself to arguing with pitlords constantly & having fights held over every week. I think to have a 100% win rate you _have_ to be a bully. [Lord knows Cat was- and I think he started that tradition.] You simply can't think of winning every fight. It's normal to lose sometimes.. bad dice, bad tactics.. Obviously a druid is not included in the above consideration, as druids can win every single fight :)
McJarvis 01-06-08, 08:58 AM	Obviously a druid is not included in the above consideration, as druids can win every single fight :) Psions that use share pain+vigor can pretty much just accidently get a near-perfect record too. Check out marius as an example. [his tactics thus far in his career have just been to vigor+sharepain+ [shoot with dorjes/crossbow] I know it's cheesy, but I want to get up to thrallherd so I can really start fleshing out the character concept :) [[of course, I also wanted to demonstrate that a character without credits can progress in gladius perfectly fine ;) ]
Salrantol 01-06-08, 09:03 AM	Psions that use share pain+vigor can pretty much just accidently get a near-perfect record too. Check out marius as an example. [his tactics thus far in his career have just been to vigor+sharepain+ [shoot with dorjes/crossbow]If you're a kineticist, a psion can get by without either of them and be rather successful. Felice tu`Ria is 11-3, and one of those losses wasn't her fault as much as mine.
McJarvis 01-06-08, 09:04 AM	If you're a kineticist, a psion can get by without either of them and be rather successful. Felice tu`Ria is 11-3, and one of those losses wasn't her fault as much as mine. Heh. I don't consider Kineticists psions. They are their own class. Speaking of which, if you want to do something new: Just try out a [nontraditional race] kineticist. I'm sure it will do well :)
Salrantol 01-06-08, 09:07 AM	Heh. I don't consider Kineticists psions. They are their own class. Speaking of which, if you want to do something new: Just try out a [nontraditional race] kineticist. I'm sure it will do well :)You know, I'm not even sure why you're posting in the tavern, when I don't see any dice rolls in the roller. :whip:
McJarvis 01-06-08, 09:07 AM	You know, I'm not even sure why you're posting in the tavern, when I don't see any dice rolls in the roller. :whip: :( No pitlording before church! It's a new rule I made up this morning. [I feel fine now, though] edit- this rule apparently applies to doing the dishes & laundry too. Or anything other than listening to the radio & surfing the web.
CrazyArtificer 01-06-08, 09:08 AM	Psions that use share pain+vigor can pretty much just accidently get a near-perfect record too. Check out marius as an example. [his tactics thus far in his career have just been to vigor+sharepain+ [shoot with dorjes/crossbow] I know it's cheesy, but I want to get up to thrallherd so I can really start fleshing out the character concept :) [[of course, I also wanted to demonstrate that a character without credits can progress in gladius perfectly fine ;) ] Eheh.. I'm considering a similar tactic with my soon to be gnome ranger/psy-war/slayer. Hostile Empathic Transfer works good for healing yourself and at the same time wounding your foe. In the worst case they'll still take half of the damage. Couple with a vampiric weapon and have fun. I'm going out.. have a nice Sunday you all.
lonewolf 01-06-08, 09:22 AM	Speaking of which, if you want to do something new: Just try out a [nontraditional race] kineticist. I'm sure it will do well :) You mean like Elan? ;)
Nabuchadnezzar 01-06-08, 09:44 AM	Calidor Tyrbelel (the original, fast, stealthy archer) Now, that he is! I had a nice pic of him, but I couldn't use that for the barbarian / ranger, it just didn't fit the character. But this one fits well :D What do you think about it? Next level will be ranger, for rapid shot and abilities, then Fighter (shot on the run), Bard (combat reflexes, dance to 5), Bard (oratory to 6) and eventually Shadowdancer :D I'll max out hide and move silently, and put extra ranks in spot and listen. Fighter's 2 points on climb, nothing better :rolleyes:
McJarvis 01-06-08, 09:51 AM	Calidor Tyrbelel (the original, fast, stealthy archer) Now, that he is! I had a nice pic of him, but I couldn't use that for the barbarian / ranger, it just didn't fit the character. But this one fits well :D What do you think about it? Next level will be ranger, for rapid shot and abilities, then Fighter (shot on the run), Bard (combat reflexes, dance to 5), Bard (oratory to 6) and eventually Shadowdancer :D I'll max out hide and move silently, and put extra ranks in spot and listen. Fighter's 2 points on climb, nothing better :rolleyes: Aside from not being a full casting class[which traditionally means :(], you might want to think about tattoos of chameleon. They're pricy at 100gp a shot, but I'm a big fan of huge hide checks :)
McJarvis 01-06-08, 09:55 AM	You mean like Elan? ;) Technically I was thinking of a gnomish kineticist as being a "fun" idea- I never actually realized the your kini had a race at all ;) That's neat. You know what? I don't even know why I'm encouraging kineticists. I hate fighting them- and there seems to be a trend going on, 'cause both of my fights this week were vs kineticists. I'm just glad I did my stint with the chosen one way back when, so I kinda know where their weak-spots are. And I heard MWB faced two of them this week too... So yeah. Kinteticist= Not original! Stop making them! They're too hard to fight! :)
Nabuchadnezzar 01-06-08, 10:11 AM	Aside from not being a full casting class[which traditionally means :(], you might want to think about tattoos of chameleon. They're pricy at 100gp a shot, but I'm a big fan of huge hide checks :) They will surely be on my repertory, but if I can't afford 3 of them (1 per fight) I don't take them. By level 4 I'll take 3 of them ;) I'm not a spellcaster but I don't rely on spell (other than wands and low level scrolls) to be efficient... If I relied on spells, I should have done an Eldricht knight focused on bow. But I wanna be a Shadowdancer :cool: EDIT: Valen sky has showed some of the power of HiPS- especially with our lighting rules. Good luck with that. A *great* source of shadows, IMO, is a prebuff'd NPC services deeper darkness spell. It costs 150gp and lasts 1 whole 3FC- available at level 5. [you shouldn't need it until then anyway] Could you please link me some examples? Thank you :)
Stormwind 01-06-08, 01:46 PM	@Nabuchadnezzar: If you're going for a sneak/sniper build (and shadowdancer is primarily a sneak build), then you might want to consider using both a tattoo of chameleon (+10 enhancement to hide), and an elixer of hiding (+10 competance bonus to hide). Since they give different bonus types, the bonuses from these items stack. Furthermore, the elixir of hiding is a wondrous item, not a potion, and therefore it does not count against your expendible cap. Together the elixir and the tattoo give you a +20 to hide which makes sniping (with it's -20 penalty) much easier to do. I had a CoCo character (Cyra Val), now retired, who specialized in sniping and she used this tactic extensively. However, the rules may have changed since she was active so I would suggest taking a look at the fights of some of the more recent characters (perhaps Valen Sky). However the bane of all hiding characters is touchsight, and I would suggest that you should plan to have something else to deal with such opponents once you get to that level. An alpha strike (for example the psionic shot feat chain) or some other competence would be my recomendation.
lonewolf 01-06-08, 02:57 PM	I´ve got a question about the Robe of boes: Undead created with this Item are not under the control of the owner of the robe. Do those uncontrolled zombies & skeletons freely attack anyone that comes close, or do simply nothing unless controlled some other way? I would say the second since mindless undead do nothing without beeing ordered to do so.
Nabuchadnezzar 01-06-08, 03:34 PM	@Nabuchadnezzar: If you're going for a sneak/sniper build (and shadowdancer is primarily a sneak build), then you might want to consider using both a tattoo of chameleon (+10 enhancement to hide), and an elixer of hiding (+10 competance bonus to hide). Since they give different bonus types, the bonuses from these items stack. Furthermore, the elixir of hiding is a wondrous item, not a potion, and therefore it does not count against your expendible cap. Together the elixir and the tattoo give you a +20 to hide which makes sniping (with it's -20 penalty) much easier to do. I had a CoCo character (Cyra Val), now retired, who specialized in sniping and she used this tactic extensively. However, the rules may have changed since she was active so I would suggest taking a look at the fights of some of the more recent characters (perhaps Valen Sky). However the bane of all hiding characters is touchsight, and I would suggest that you should plan to have something else to deal with such opponents once you get to that level. An alpha strike (for example the psionic shot feat chain) or some other competence would be my recomendation. Good call! I'll take elixirs and tattoos after my first 3 matches. I am a long range sniper, so I really won't get close... All I need is to stay far away from melee, and touchsight at higher levels. To take psionic shot I must either take a level in psionic classes or take 2 feats. That's not a great deal... Instead, I Think I'll continue as Shadowdancer: shadow companion, shadow jump (!!!) and other really cool abilities that round-up my repertoire. My feats are locked until 15th level: ranger 2: rapid shot fighter 2: shot on the run level 6: combat reflexes level 9: far shot level 12: precise shot level 15: improved precise shot
lonewolf 01-06-08, 03:41 PM	You could consider Psychic warrior instead of fighter. That way you get access to Psionic shot and can manifest Chameleon yourself, reducing your needed expendables a bit. It also opens the way to powerstones/dorjes of compression to further improve your hide check. take a look at The Chameleon (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=9716166#post9716166) for example.
Nabuchadnezzar 01-06-08, 03:49 PM	Psychic warrior? Good call, but it makes me even more MAD... I'm considering in lowering DEX to 18 and put 2 points on INT and 4 on WIS. I'll have worse BAB and even worse to hit bonus due to decreased dexterity, though... But I then can use dorjes, and I could pump myself via off/def precognition dorjes/powerstones Do you think that would be a real advantage?
MindWandererB 01-06-08, 04:10 PM	Yes, it probably would. We have an expendable cap rule for a reason. Take a look at some of Cat's old characters--a couple are similar to what you're describing in some respects (though I think they're all melee).
Sjiggie 01-06-08, 04:17 PM	Psychic warrior? Good call, but it makes me even more MAD... I'm considering in lowering DEX to 18 and put 2 points on INT and 4 on WIS. I'll have worse BAB and even worse to hit bonus due to decreased dexterity, though... But I then can use dorjes, and I could pump myself via off/def precognition dorjes/powerstones Do you think that would be a real advantage? You could also lower your strength to 12 and put the two extra points in wisdom increasing it to 12. You don't need more than that if you only take 2 levels in psychic warrior. The option to use dorjes and stones with psychic warrior powers instead of tattoos is a big advantage because it will almost double your expandable cap and dorjes don't even count against the expandable cap.
Nabuchadnezzar 01-06-08, 06:04 PM	Wis 12 or Wis 10 does not make that difference... And I need good Concentration to gain psionic focus, so I need Wis 14 (for at least a single power point) and Int 12 (for extra skills) Str 14 lets me do more damage with the bow and carry more arrows. I won't compress since I don't think I'll take many Psychic warrior levels (only 2 before entering Shadowdancer prc), the power would last too short or the dorje would be too expensive. I lower my Dex to 18 total, but now I can buff myself with Thicken skin, Synesthete (+4 to Spot for an archer is good) and Chamaleon... all last 10 minutes. That's 100 gp per fight. I think I won't take Chamaleon as a known power... I have only 1 pp. I think I'll use Empty mind... If I face a powerful telepath or the like that would defeat me on a failed will saving throw, I can use my power to lower the risk of fail, otherwise I'll just remain with 1 pp (minimum for being psionically focused). When I reach level 5 I'll take the PsyWar level, I'll have 3 pp total and gain Psionic shot instead of Shot on the run (which I'll take at 9, no far shot for me). EDIT: whoa, it's good to have access to psychic warrior dorje AND bard and ranger wands! I'll make Chamaleon and Synesthete a dorje asap!
SauroGrenom 01-06-08, 06:48 PM	I´ve got a question about the Robe of boes: Undead created with this Item are not under the control of the owner of the robe. Do those uncontrolled zombies & skeletons freely attack anyone that comes close, or do simply nothing unless controlled some other way? I would say the second since mindless undead do nothing without beeing ordered to do so.Mindless creatures attack what ever is closest, except others similar to themselves.
SauroGrenom 01-06-08, 06:51 PM	Wis 12 or Wis 10 does not make that difference... And I need good Concentration to gain psionic focus, so I need Wis 14 (for at least a single power point) and Int 12 (for extra skills) If you're using psionic focus, you may consider psionic meditation as a feat to regain focus as a move action. Also you need Wis 13 to gain this feat. Further using psiwarrior powerstones requires having a sufficient stat. That's just my two bits.
lonewolf 01-06-08, 07:23 PM	Mindless creatures attack what ever is closest, except others similar to themselves. Is this your opinion or a rule somewhere?
Nabuchadnezzar 01-06-08, 08:07 PM	Psionic meditation is good, but I have really limited choices for feats... The main purpose of taking psywar levels is the access to dorje and powerstones... Psionic shot is a good call, but I'll use a full round rapid attack (2 times 1d8+2) rather than a single 1d8+2d6+2 arrow. If I take boots of speed, that would be 3 arrows. Problems are when someone other than me will take boots of speed and face me... Maybe it's better to take speed of thought, to increase mobility up to 70 ft with expeditious retreat. If I want to increase damage, maybe a dorje of offensive prescience will be fine enough, at higher levels, a merciful +1 bow does +1d6 per arrow, I'll next add in psychokinetic for a 1d8+1d6+1d4+3 damage (average 13 per hit) but I don't know if one can mix psionic and magic enhancements. I think the best magic bow for Calidor will be a merciful distance +1 composite longbow: range 165 ft, 275 with far shot feat, 1d6 extra damage! I won't kill enemies, but then I could simply shut off the extra 1d6 and do real damage, or simply make a CdG. For 18600 gp only :cool: The real downside is that my to hit is low and Shadowdancer prc weakens it a bit (I'll eventually reach 15 bab at 20, but I'll remain 1 point behind a pure cleric most of the time). I prefer to live more than to finish enemies faster. All I need is unlimited amno (maybe a full portable hole :D ) But how would you ever find a far and hidden in plain sight chamaleon sniper? You'll need to max out Spot, and hope that it will be enough, or become invisible yourself (but I'll pump myself with a 3rd level scroll of see invisibility), or spread the battlefield with minions in search of me. Daylight plains will be a problem, but nobody is perfect :D I'll max out spot, with elven bonus, wisdom bonus and synesthete, maybe also some cheap +5 glasses (a +10 aware third eye later) to see you even at greater distance. I hope that my Shadowdancer sniper will be successful and funny to use :) Great Downside: Energy Wall (sonic)... all my arrows will be ineffective... That would be the time to use a summon monster wand or something to end up concentration, or use a spiked growth wand... hmm what to do in such case? It's a par if he can't see me and I can't penetrate the wall... Entangle or Grease on the floor? ^^
hogarth 01-06-08, 08:23 PM	Any idea if we'll ever get some of the older threads back? Like the "Ask an Elder" or old "Battles of Gladius" threads?
McJarvis 01-06-08, 08:47 PM	nevermind
TelinArtho 01-06-08, 09:45 PM	Anything specific you are looking for hogarth? I don't have the archived battles threads - but I think I have most of the other big ones.
Zevox 01-06-08, 10:09 PM	But how would you ever find a far and hidden in plain sight chamaleon sniper? Oh, there are plenty of ways to do it. Look at a couple of Featylec Elendi's fights (vs Auburn and vs Uhmentarymster mainly) for some examples. The worst of them all is Touchsight, a third-level psionic power available to Psions and Wilders which auto-pinpoints everything within 60' and from which there are scant few defenses, all of which are difficult to obtain (off the top of my head, the only effective ways are being incorporeal and the 6th-level Slayer ability Cerebral Blind). I hope that my Shadowdancer sniper will be successful and funny to use :) Fun to use, I can guarantee (for you anyway, not so much for your pitlords). I know I had a blast with mine, although a good portion of that was RP. Successful... well, I'll just say that the only truly successful sneaks we've had around the arena tend to be the ones using Psionic Shot. Speaking of which, you mentioned using rapid shot/haste for full attacks, so I think I ought to point out that doesn't work with sniping. Sniping requires you to use your move action re-hiding in order to not be seen (see the hide skill), so you only get 1 attack/round regardless. Rapid-haste-shooting works wonders when you're not hiding, for sure, but can't be done if you are. And while we're discussing new characters, I'm presently working on one of my own I wouldn't mind some general pointers for. Its something we don't see much in the arena - a straight Sorcerer (well, probably straight - I'm still wondering on if its worth the useless skill focus feat to work in Archmage or Loremaster - but in any event it won't lose any caster levels anywhere regardless). I've narrowed the race down to either a Gnome or a Xeph, leaning towards Gnome (more hp plus free +1 DC to illusions, and the low speed is fixed easily with Expeditious Retreat), and I know I want Heighten Spell as one of his early feats (Sorcerers get so much more flexibility out of that feat), but beyond that and the fact that I don't want him to be mounted (already have Istima and Kathren for mounted casters) hes pretty much still up in the air. Anyone with any general suggestions or pointers? Zevox
hogarth 01-06-08, 10:23 PM	Anything specific you are looking for hogarth? I don't have the archived battles threads - but I think I have most of the other big ones. I was specifically looking for a question I might have asked about the Rake special ability, but it would just be useful to have a way to look for old ruling in general.
TelinArtho 01-06-08, 11:13 PM	Well - if your browser is able to open the older archives - you can still do a search that way. If not - I could send you the files via email (send me an email address via PM and I'll pass them along - whatever you want). I'll do a search when I get a chance - it would be real useful if you had a time frame to work with though.
hogarth 01-06-08, 11:40 PM	Well - if your browser is able to open the older archives - you can still do a search that way. If not - I could send you the files via email (send me an email address via PM and I'll pass them along - whatever you want). That's just it -- I don't see the "Ask an Elder" thread in the archives. I only see very old or fairly recent threads. This is the archives you're talking about, right? http://forums.gleemax.com/archive/index.php/f-483.html
TelinArtho 01-06-08, 11:42 PM	AH - that's because it was later renamed to, I believe, the Oracle of Gladius.
Zevox 01-07-08, 12:37 AM	AH - that's because it was later renamed to, I believe, the Oracle of Gladius. Aye, but that was when the second version of the thread was posted (or third, I forget if we an "Ask an Elder II" thread in between). I think hogarth is looking for the actual original Ask an Elder thread(s). Zevox
MindWandererB 01-07-08, 04:33 AM	Here's (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-569305.html) the original thread. The Oracle was the second such thread. I've been trying to get that Battles thread restored. So far, everyone I've talked to denies responsibility. I'm not even sure anyone has that ability anymore aside from whoever the sysadmin is.
CrazyArtificer 01-07-08, 06:34 AM	And while we're discussing new characters, I'm presently working on one of my own I wouldn't mind some general pointers for. Its something we don't see much in the arena - a straight Sorcerer (well, probably straight - I'm still wondering on if its worth the useless skill focus feat to work in Archmage or Loremaster - but in any event it won't lose any caster levels anywhere regardless). I've narrowed the race down to either a Gnome or a Xeph, leaning towards Gnome (more hp plus free +1 DC to illusions, and the low speed is fixed easily with Expeditious Retreat), and I know I want Heighten Spell as one of his early feats (Sorcerers get so much more flexibility out of that feat), but beyond that and the fact that I don't want him to be mounted (already have Istima and Kathren for mounted casters) hes pretty much still up in the air. Anyone with any general suggestions or pointers? Zevox I love Gnomes, so my tip is pretty obvious. I'd love to see a field-control sorcerer.. Illusion+conjuration should be your main schools for that. Mix them up to confuse your enemies ("OMG, this acid fog is real or not? It can't be real again.. let's step inside it.. aaaaaargh") You won't have many options as a sorcerer (choice of spells is limited), so I guess you'll have to focus on just a couple of good combos and useful spells. Web at level 2, Major Image at level 3, Summon Swarm to kill what you block with Web. Black tentacles at level 4, and so on. At high levels you could buy a simulacrum from another caster and have a duplicate of you taking care of low level no-save spells while you focus on summonings.
CrazyArtificer 01-07-08, 06:35 AM	TheDreadDormammu and TelinArtho, are you both ready to quest with Uranedal this week?
hogarth 01-07-08, 06:41 AM	AH - that's because it was later renamed to, I believe, the Oracle of Gladius. You're right -- I am looking for the Oracle of Gladius, but I still don't see that in the list. Here's what I see at forums.gleemax.com/archive/index.php/f-483.html: Fights of Gladius Gladiators of Gladius Characters of Gladius The Blackmarket of Gladius The Rules of Gladius Tales of Gladius The Guild Hall of Gladius Guild - THE ARCANE ORDER Guild - EAST HABARI TRADE COMPANY Guild - THE LIVING TREE Guild - THE PSI CONSORTIUM Guild - THE WARFARE ALLIANCE The Training Hall of Gladius Guild - THE CELESTIAL EXPEDITIONARY FORCES Propose your Mercenary! Mercenaries of Gladius Battles of Gladius (II) The Prison of Gladius (II) The Newspaper of Gladius The World of Gladius The Questlog of Gladius Pitlords of Gladius Campaign - "Warriors of Light" The Council of Gladius (III) Battles of Gladius (III) Guild - THE LOYALISTS Core Coliseum Tavern (VIII) Mission (CEF): Journals of the Nightwalker The Courtroom of Gladius Miniquest - "The Devil is in the Details" Iron Man Tournament - Gossip and Rumors Quest: "Ordo Draconis: Green" [EL 4] Miniquest: The Stygian Strikers (EL12) Mission: Ode to a Flower (WAR) [EL5] Fights of the Week: February 21st - Comments and Concerns Mission: "Another Road Home" [ECL 9] Mission - "Friends of the Forest" [TAO/TLT] [EL 12 - Frozen] Quest: "Swamp Thing" [ECL9] Mission:ECL9 "Finding a Way in Kelartus" Miniquest: Diplomacy [EL 2] To Catch a Low-Flying Star: EL 11 Mission: "The Druidic Circles: Alethea" [TAO/TLT] [ECL 7/8] Mission: "The Druidic Circles: Sophia" [TAO/TLT] [ECL 5/6] Miniquest - "Arrival" [ECL 10] Fights of the Week: February 28th - Comments and Concerns Miniquest: Blaze of Glory (EL10) Miniquest - Obituary [EL7] Mission (CEF) - Quiet Riot [EL 11] Miniquest: A Smell of Death [EL 4] MiniQuest:The Flaming Paladin [ECL 5] Mission: [WAR] "One is Silver" [EL 5] Miniquest: The Carrion Cavalier [EL 9] Fights of the Week: March 7th - Comments and Concerns Miniquest - "Zero Hour" [EL3] Mission: [LOY] "To Teach an Old Dog a New Trick" [EL 7] Operation [EHTC] - Crossing the Styx [ECL 10] Miniquest - "Blackmail" [EL 6] Operation: [WAR] "Giantbane" [EL 8] Mini-Quest: Sparkies! [EL10] Iron Man Tournament - Pairings and Fights Fights of the Week: March 14th - Comments and Concerns Iron Man Tournament - Comments and Concerns Operation: [EHTC] "Styx and Stones..." [EL 10] Gladius Royale Casino Fights of the Week: March 21st - Comments and Concerns [Miniquest] Family Visit [EL7] Miniquest: "Queen's Gambit Declined" [ECL 7] Fights of the Week: March 28th - Comments and Concerns Miniquest: Chaos and the Beast (EL7) MiniQuest: The Beast Within. (ECL8) MiniQuest: Whip the Wyvern. (ECL6) Minquest - "The Steel Mind" [ECL5] Intercept: EHTC vs Order of the Open Handed Way MiniQuest: Payback Strike [ECL 10] MiniQuest: Vengeful Philosophers [ECL 11] [Miniquest] Take It To The Air [EL5] Fights of the Week: April 4th - Comments and Concerns Miniquest: Chicken Marsala (EL7) Miniquest - "A Hunt Gone Wrong"[ECL 3] MQ: Finding Sanctuary (ECL8) Assault MQ "Masters and Servants" [TAO attacks Rioters] [EL 9] The Council of Gladius (IV) Core Coliseum Tavern (IX) MQ: ECL7 Courier of Destruction and War The Newspaper of Gladius Fights of the Week: April 11th - Comments and Concerns Assault MQ: "Experimental Thinking"[ECL 9] MiniQuest: To Death Cometh ECL 8 MiniQuest: The Many Heads of Death [EL 5] Miniquest Deeper Underground [EL4] Assault MQ: "Punishing Blow" [ECL9] Fights of the Week: April 18th - Comments and Concerns Miniquest: A Pair of Doves (EL5) Mission: "The Ins and Outs of Gawane" [ECL 10] Assault MQ: "Impure Steel" [ECL 6] Campaign - "Mission into The Sands" Miniquest Showing The Way [EL8] Mini-Quest (Guild Assault) "Skies of Valhamya" [EL 7] Miniquest: A Pair of Doves, Take Two (EL5) Mission: The Gawane Underworld (EL10) Mission: "The Druidic Circles: Sophia (Part 2)" [ECL 6] Fights of the Week: April 25th - Comments and Concerns Miniquest Searching for muscle [EL6] Mission: A diplomatic meeting of sorts. (EL4) Quest: The Problem of Pain[EL 4] Fights of the Week: May 2nd - Comments and Concerns Assault MQ Telling Blow [EL5] Mission: "The Druidic Circles: Dikaiasune" [ECL 4] Abdication Massive Updates Mission: The Gawane Underworld, Reprise (EL10) Fights of the Week: May 9th - Comments and Concerns Assault MQ: "A Bishops Riposte" [ECL 9] Miniquest Gladius Underground [EL3] Writing Contest - Summer 2007 Quest - "Ordo Draconis: Red" [EL 5] Fights of the Week: May 16th - Comments and Concerns Mission: The Religion Within (EL10) Operation: Stripes of a Different Color (EL9) Miniquest - "Learning a Trick or Two"[ECL6] MiniQuest: Into the Mind of the Spy (EL5) MiniQuest: Into the Deepest Night (EL8) Miniquest: A Killer's Challenge [EL 10] Assault MQ Ending The Terror [EL5] Fights of the Week: May 23rd - Comments and Concerns Miniquest: "The Cold Hand of Death" [ECL10] Miniquest: "A Blade from the Shadows" [ECL4] Quest: Igor and Eye-Gore (EL5) MiniQuest :Corpse of the Damned ECL 6 Quest :Draconic Homecoming ECL 6 Miniquest: Helping Out [EL10] Fights of the Week: May 30th - Comments and Concerns Miniquest: Into Tall Grass [EL 7] Miniquest: Free Trade [ECL 7] MQ: ECL 10 "Sorcerous Secrets" Miniquest: Assaulting the fortress [EL5] Quest Investigating the Church of Denth [EL11] Upkeep Fights of the Week: June 6th - Comments and Concerns Quest: A drop of beauty, a drop of blood (EL9) MiniQuest: In the Blood of the Mind (ECL 5) MiniQuest: Emmesary of Darkness (ECL 6) Miniquest: "Dawn of the Dead" [ECL 8] MiniQuest: "Hide and Seek" [EL 6] [Guild Entry] Mission: Fate of the Loyalists (EL10) A Drop of Blood, Reprise (EL9) Fights of the Week: June 13th - Comments and Concerns Assault MQ: "Friend or Foe?" [CR 9] Assault MQ: Liberty or Death [EL 7] Quest: EL 4 A Search For Peace of Mind Quest - "Remnants of Kiari" [EL 10] ECL 3: Maeglin (bgt) vs Saldor (amalcon): Arena Fights of the Week: June 20th - Comments and Concerns Core Coliseum Tavern (X) Mission: "Peering Through the Mists" (PSI) [EL 12] Fights of the Week: June 27th - Comments and Concerns Mission - Silencing the Hecklers [CEF] - EL 10 Quest: "Chaotic Resolve" [ECL 10] Campaign- "For Love of Money" Quest: There and Back Again (EL11) Fights of the Week: July 4-5th - Comments and Concerns QUEST: A test of Faith and Resolve [MQ] Money can't buy [EL4] [MQ] Rhino Rush [EL10] MiniQuest "A Wolf in a China Shop" [EL 6] Fights of the Week: July 11th - Comments and Concerns Mission: The Textbook of the Dunes (EL4) [Miniquest] The trap has sprung [EL8] Fights of the Week: July 18th - Comments and Concerns Mission{TLT} "The Dragonfly Arch" [EL3] Mission {WAR} "Ramparts" [EL 9] Quest "Ordo Draconis: Blue" [EL 6] Mission {CEF} - "Shadow War" [EL13] Mission: "Delivery of the Black Star" [EL9] [EHTC] Mission: Inquisition (CEF/WAR) [EL12] Fights of the Week: July 25th - Comments and Concerns Journey To the North MQ EL 9 A Search for Identity MQ EL 5 The Community of Gladius MQ: The Bone Pit, Part 1 [EL 8] Fights of the Week: August 1st - Comments and Concerns Miniquest - "Friends of Old" [CR 10+11] Mission: The Castle of Firbol the Great [EL13] Miniquest: A Vivid Dream [EL11] MQ: Lots of Pretty Flowers [EL 10] Miniquest: "A new bond" [EL9] MQ: To Catch a Mule [EL 4] Campaign: The Church of Denth - Group I Campaign - The Church of Denth - Group 2 Mission: EL 3 Guard Duty Fights of the Week: August 8th - Comments and Concerns Miniquest: A Vivid Dream, Different Perspective [EL10] Mission: Inquisition - Act II [EL12] MiniQuest "A Priest of the People" [EL5] Fights of the Week: August 15th - Comments and Concerns Mission "Infiltration" [EL3] Miniquest: "New Friends" [ECL 11] Fights of the Week: August 22nd - Comments and Concerns Fights of the Week: August 29th - Comments and Concerns Miniquest In search of new power [EL3] MiniQuest: ECL 3 "To Claim the Dragon's Blood" MiniQuest "Severance" [EL 5] Mission: "Its a Dirty Job ..." [ECL 3] Fights of the Week: September 5th - Comments and Concerns Miniquest "Death is a Lonely Business...." [ECL 9] Challenge Match[ECL13]: Pisbeast vs Longshot & Hezrou Fights of the Week: September 12th - Comments and Concerns Fights of the Week: September 19th - Comments and Concerns Miniquest: Collecting Corpses (again) [ECL7] Quest "Ruins of Aberforth" [ECL3] Fights of the Week: September 26th - Comments and Concerns Adjustments Community/Guild Discussion Thread Miniquest: Brutish Shadows [ECL 6] Fights of the Week: October 3rd - Comments and Concerns Fights of the Week: October 10th - Comments and Concerns QUEST: Elemental War [ECL 4] Fights of the Week: October 17th - Comments and Concerns Fights of the Week: October 24th - Comments and Concerns Quest: The Fields of Despair [EL4] Fights of the Week: October 31st - Comments and Concerns Playtest Fights of the Week: November 7th - Comments and Concerns Quest "Ordo Draconis: Black" {ECL 7} Fights of the Week: November 14th - Comments and Concerns MiniQuest: Into the Mind of the Warrior [ECL 7] D&D PvP Tourney Quest: "The Hunters" [ECL 11] Fights of the Week: November 28th - Comments and Concerns Fights of the Week: December 5th - Comments and Concerns Forum Lead Fights of the Week 12 December 2007: Comments and Concerns Prison of Gladius (III) The Courtroom of Gladius (II) Playtest Monster Takedown ECL13 Fights of the Week: 19 December 2007 - Comments and Concerns Fights of the Week: 26 December 2007 - Comments and Concerns Fights of the Week: 2 January 2008 - Comments and Concerns No Oracle. Is there somewhere else I should be looking?
Nabuchadnezzar 01-07-08, 07:40 AM	I'm going to change that... I thought about a better way to bring speed, archery, magic and stealth. Psywar/Ranger/Bard/Shadowdancer is a way to bring everything, dut nothing at full effectivness with the only exception of stealth. Archery is still a problem because BAB is low, and I see there is no way to enhance BAB if I want to use psionic shot, dorjes and wands... But I think that the time you spend refocusing could be spent better. I'll rather use movement actions... well, MOVING :D I thought about rogue 3 - diviner 5 - shadowdancer 1 - arcane trickster 10. No psionic shot, few feats (locked for shadowdancer till 6, 9 better suited for some crafting, 12 and 15 to take precise shot and shot on the run or the like), but better magic. Low to-hit, but true strike is a 1st level spell... So, no psionic in my build, with the only exception of chamaleon tattoos by level 4. Let's see if this can be better than psionic based ones.
CrazyArtificer 01-07-08, 07:50 AM	So, no psionic in my build, with the only exception of chamaleon tattoos by level 4. Let's see if this can be better than psionic based ones. We'll really see, as I'm creating a new ranger/psi-war/slayer focused on touch attacks (I mean both). :) Maybe I'll post it later today. Just a question, though. Why diviner? It's true that you give up just one school that way, but you won't have the high DCs needed for enchantment or necromancy anyway. An Invoker would be better for an Arcane trickster build, imho.
Nabuchadnezzar 01-07-08, 08:37 AM	There are good spells in Enchantement school... For the start, a sleep could save me better than my stealth abilities, if I have the possibility to cast such spell... DC 15 isn't that bad anyway. (Greater) Heroism is good to grant me nice bonuses, and lasts long. If I watch school spells: Lvl 0 Detect magic Lvl 1 True strike Lvl 2 See invisibility Lvl 3 Arcane sight (if enemy has magic auras, this is somewhat better than Touchsight) Lvl 4 Locate creature Lvl 5 Nothing good here... I'll take Arcane sight or other fewer level spell Lvl 6 True seeing Lvl 7 Arcane sight, greater Lvl 8 Moment of prescience Lvl 9 Here I'm already epic :D There are interesting spells at each level except 5th. Besides... Touch attacks means => Mirror image (+ Blur) If I had to select a different school specialisation, I'll have taken Illusion :D EDIT: I won't have 20 dex at starting... it's better to start with 18 dex, 18 int. Int for skill points! Dex will be enhanced via reduce person and cat's grace (until I craft my woundroud items at level 9).
CrazyArtificer 01-07-08, 09:33 AM	Gimrel is up (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14763541&postcount=1285). Any tip for him? I have some spare money but I'm not sure on what I should spend those on.. Also, the Arena description says that it counts as every terrain (within the boundaries of common sense). Would this mean that a forest gnome gets his +4 for being hidden in a wooded area? And Nab, remember sleep has a casting time of 1 round.. you'll realize that often it's not so easy to use it in the Arena. Furthermore, I'd prefer a Scorching Ray over a See invisibility any day (except you are against an invisible foe, but a scroll can take care of the event).
Nabuchadnezzar 01-07-08, 09:45 AM	I'll use ventriloquism to make my voice (verbal component) seem to come from another point if I'm going to use sleep. Scorching ray is a close range spell, I won't use it often. Let's think about 2nd level bonus spell slot as another true strike then ;)
TelinArtho 01-07-08, 10:01 AM	TheDreadDormammu and TelinArtho, are you both ready to quest with Uranedal this week? Sure.
McJarvis 01-07-08, 10:02 AM	RE: School specialization. I believe Cat was one of the first to reveal the diviner to be a real powerhouse. Essentially, if you choose enchantment as an opposed school you are not losing much[especially since protection from evil nixes a ton of the enchantment school]. Divination lets you make this choice alone, and has *decent* extra spells as choices. The truth is every school is going to have some dead-end//losers out there. [at certain spell levels] Of course- you could just pitlord alot and get a domain from UA. Transmutation and Conjuration domains are pretty darn spiffy.
Zevox 01-07-08, 10:08 AM	I love Gnomes, so my tip is pretty obvious. I'd love to see a field-control sorcerer.. Illusion+conjuration should be your main schools for that. Mix them up to confuse your enemies ("OMG, this acid fog is real or not? It can't be real again.. let's step inside it.. aaaaaargh") You won't have many options as a sorcerer (choice of spells is limited), so I guess you'll have to focus on just a couple of good combos and useful spells. Web at level 2, Major Image at level 3, Summon Swarm to kill what you block with Web. Black tentacles at level 4, and so on. At high levels you could buy a simulacrum from another caster and have a duplicate of you taking care of low level no-save spells while you focus on summonings. Eh, the thing about that is, crowd control tends not to work as well in the arena, which is focused on 1-on-1 combat principally. Sure, a fair number of characters have some ally or another, even if just an animal companion or mount, but many wizards or psions have no more than a familiar/psicrystal, and some warriors have none at all. Plus some of the spells you mentioned, while great tabletop, are more limited in the arena. For instance, web works well in the cavern, sewer, and forest; but try using it on the plains or in the arena. Doesn't happen. Acid Fog is pretty poor too - it might be nice on choke points in normal games, but in the CoCo your foe will just leave the fog after the first round, so you're basically spending a 6th level spell slot for 2d6 damage. And summon swarm has the nasty prerequisite of constant concentration to keep it going, and the ally it summons isn't going to be doing all that much damage. Major Image also is only so-so for the arena, rarely buying you any more time than a simpler Mirror Image would, and also requiring concentration. The simulacrum idea is a pretty good one though. I'll have to remember that. And I do intend on trying to work in some nice illusions if I go with a Gnome, of course, its just a matter of picking the right ones. Also, the Arena description says that it counts as every terrain (within the boundaries of common sense). Would this mean that a forest gnome gets his +4 for being hidden in a wooded area? I doubt it. To my knowledge we've only ever given that in the Forest. ]Of course- you could just pitlord alot and get a domain from UA. Transmutation and Conjuration domains are pretty darn spiffy. And others are pretty good too. Necromancy is pretty good, with a couple of so-so spells and one stinker in the situation-dependent Control Undead. Abjuration only has two stinkers, Remove Curse at 4th level and Mage's Private Sanctum at 5th. Fire and Cold would be great if they weren't so easy to counter with resist energy. Evocation is a good one too, with just one or two so-so spells. Yeah, the domain caster option in general is pretty good. Zevox
TelinArtho 01-07-08, 10:15 AM	@hogarth - MWB linked the original Ask an Elder thread. Here (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-741523.html) is the Oracle of Gladius thread. I did a search for posts containing "rake" and didn't find anything posted by you in either thread. In the last courtroom, you did post about rakes in September (post 1428). In this tavern thread you asked a question about rakes in July (post 388) - there's some discussion after it. I assume that is what you are looking for. If not - I'll continue searching into the Council if you like.
CrazyArtificer 01-07-08, 10:50 AM	Plus some of the spells you mentioned, while great tabletop, are more limited in the arena. For instance, web works well in the cavern, sewer, and forest; but try using it on the plains or in the arena. Doesn't happen. Acid Fog is pretty poor too - it might be nice on choke points in normal games, but in the CoCo your foe will just leave the fog after the first round, so you're basically spending a 6th level spell slot for 2d6 damage. And summon swarm has the nasty prerequisite of constant concentration to keep it going, and the ally it summons isn't going to be doing all that much damage. Major Image also is only so-so for the arena, rarely buying you any more time than a simpler Mirror Image would, and also requiring concentration. Yes, I understand it's difficult in the arena to have a nice shot with those, but you could still try to figure a way to block the enemy in one place and then hit him hard. For example an ally with huge grapple checks and decent hp could pin the enemy down while you have fun. Another option could be having a druid mercenary with you ready to cast Entangle (better than web). You could also try to hamper the enemy speed and to widen your spells to combine a larger area with slower speed. A wall of force and some fog or cloud spell inside could also be nice. I doubt it. To my knowledge we've only ever given that in the Forest. :raincloud
McJarvis 01-07-08, 10:55 AM	Acid Fog is pretty poor too - it might be nice on choke points in normal games, but in the CoCo your foe will just leave the fog after the first round, so you're basically spending a 6th level spell slot for 2d6 damage. You can't move out of acid fog in one turn. It's a solid fog(not fog cloud) that does damage- so you have "stuck" your opponent in there for a turn or two. [if you manage to get him against a wall, maybe even three]. That's two->three free area attacks into the mists. In addition- it stops all ranged attacks other than spells, so against someone like hood it is especially useful. Combine with wall of stones for flavor. edit- also note that acid fog does not specify unattended objects are damaged. just objects. I'm not sure how that interacts with CoCo rules- but for home games I've always had acid fog's damage work against items. [nasty since it gets rid of scrolls/potions right away. Not really enough damage to get rid of weapons/armor, though]
Zevox 01-07-08, 01:26 PM	You can't move out of acid fog in one turn. It's a solid fog(not fog cloud) that does damage- so you have "stuck" your opponent in there for a turn or two. [if you manage to get him against a wall, maybe even three]. That's two->three free area attacks into the mists. In addition- it stops all ranged attacks other than spells, so against someone like hood it is especially useful. Combine with wall of stones for flavor. edit- also note that acid fog does not specify unattended objects are damaged. just objects. I'm not sure how that interacts with CoCo rules- but for home games I've always had acid fog's damage work against items. [nasty since it gets rid of scrolls/potions right away. Not really enough damage to get rid of weapons/armor, though] Hm, now that is interesting. I hadn't noticed the solid fog part of the spell. Could work well with Black Tentacles, now that I think of it, or at higher levels force cage. Might be worth considering after all. Although a simple resist energy spell renders it pretty close to useless too, but then again there are always dispels for that, and energy/subdual substitution feats usable on the fly by Sorcerers to shake things up. Anyway, that is getting a bit ahead of myself. I'll try to get an ECL 3 version ready and posted tonight or tomorrow. Zevox
McJarvis 01-07-08, 01:36 PM	Gimrel is up (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14763541&postcount=1285). Any tip for him? I have some spare money but I'm not sure on what I should spend those on.. Also, the Arena description says that it counts as every terrain (within the boundaries of common sense). Would this mean that a forest gnome gets his +4 for being hidden in a wooded area? Add in powerstones of chameleon and he'll be pretty darn similar to one of my old characters(Mort Noir). I had lots of fun with her- though it looks like you're less hard-lined sniping. I'm not sure why you have 400 arrows at home. It's not like you can go retrieve them in between fights- I'd rather just have the gold. [or have them on my person- 60 arrows isn't much for a 3FC]
TelinArtho 01-07-08, 01:38 PM	McJ - you can retrieve items that are at home between fights.
lonewolf 01-07-08, 01:38 PM	It's not like you can go retrieve them in between fights Actually you can. :) ninja´d
McJarvis 01-07-08, 01:43 PM	McJ - you can retrieve items that are at home between fights. Since when? Or am I thinking of something different? edit- Maybe I'm thinking of not being able to access "at home" stuff in your tactics like we used to be able to do? I dunno.
The Dread Dormammu 01-07-08, 01:44 PM	TheDreadDormammu and TelinArtho, are you both ready to quest with Uranedal this week? I'd Love to but I'm going to be on fight 3 (my first fight went into week 2). If you can't wait feel free to go on ahead without me, or if you can wait we can start to talk about Spell selection which will be of the utmost importance and require some real planning.
templer10 01-07-08, 01:55 PM	Question - Stormwind wanted Varjo (a sdhaow) to end her move in the squere in the same squere as the guy she is fighting. 1)is it possible? 2)does the opponet or varjo provoke AOA's from each other when they attack? 3)do they have cover relative to each other?
TelinArtho 01-07-08, 01:56 PM	I'll defer to Artificer on timing - I have no problem waiting or going forward. For spell selection - Vallgar is pretty much set. He only memorizes one of each spell and has enough pearls to cover multiple castings as needed. Who is our questlord and what EL is the quest going to be?
CrazyArtificer 01-07-08, 02:00 PM	I'd Love to but I'm going to be on fight 3 (my first fight went into week 2). If you can't wait feel free to go on ahead without me, or if you can wait we can start to talk about Spell selection which will be of the utmost importance and require some real planning. Ignore my last PM, I didn't see it was a new reply :) I will wait for Snaga, don't worry. On spells give me a few days to check each other spellbook and feel free to do the same and propose your tactics :) Who is our questlord and what EL is the quest going to be? I already contacted whitebaron and he accepted to QL when we are ready. On EL I guess either EL 4 or 5. EL 5 would net more rewards, but also more risk. What do you prefer?
CrazyArtificer 01-07-08, 02:04 PM	Add in powerstones of chameleon and he'll be pretty darn similar to one of my old characters(Mort Noir). I had lots of fun with her- though it looks like you're less hard-lined sniping. I am still considering the chameleon powerstones actually.. they are surely a great complement for this build, but it smells a bit cheesy :) I'm not sure why you have 400 arrows at home. It's not like you can go retrieve them in between fights- I'd rather just have the gold. [or have them on my person- 60 arrows isn't much for a 3FC] The idea is that 60 should be enough for 1 fight, and I'd recover another 60 for fight 2 and so on.. If I can't (given my load capacity) I can just bring all 460 in fight 1 :) Now that I think about it probably 80 arrows/fight should be enough.
McJarvis 01-07-08, 02:06 PM	I am still considering the chameleon powerstones actually.. they are surely a great complement for this build, but it smells a bit cheesy :) You could get a dorjes of chameleon instead. That's what mort used. [obviously this wouldn't be cheesy.]
CrazyArtificer 01-07-08, 02:10 PM	You could get a dorjes of chameleon instead. That's what mort used. [obviously this wouldn't be cheesy.] LOL. +25 Hide check at level 3. Add distance and you are practically invisible. Any good tip for a favored enemy? I'm undecided between humans (usually they are more) and elves(lots of elves on this board).
McJarvis 01-07-08, 02:14 PM	LOL. +25 Hide check at level 3. Add distance and you are practically invisible. Any good tip for a favored enemy? I'm undecided between humans (usually they are more) and elves(lots of elves on this board). Either or. I don't think it'll matter too much in the long run. If it helps your consideration any- humans usually have more hp. And yeah. Mort's ECL3 run was mostly surrenders and "someone wandered into the forest and was filled with arrows" fights. It's tough to fight at that level- of course you'll have a tougher time of it, since now you can't get the deeper darkness she used. [you'll have to create concealment. Otherwise opponents can move quickly to negate cover]. Also, there are listen checks to attacks now- and even using MS, it's tough to keep hidden for long.
TelinArtho 01-07-08, 02:21 PM	Ignore my last PM, I didn't see it was a new reply :) I will wait for Snaga, don't worry. On spells give me a few days to check each other spellbook and feel free to do the same and propose your tactics :) I already contacted whitebaron and he accepted to QL when we are ready. On EL I guess either EL 4 or 5. EL 5 would net more rewards, but also more risk. What do you prefer? Well, with 3 characters, we should be able to tear through most EL4 or 5 encounters, in my opinion. EL4 quest with 2 ECL4 and 1 ECL5 characters: 1200*3/3 = 1200xp; 1000*3/3=1000xp. 1000xp for Snaga; 1200xp for Vallgar and Uranedal. EL5 quest would be 1600xp for Vallgar and Uranedal and 1500xp for Snaga. I would be fine with either and would be up for EL6 if you want - possibly EL7 if you want a real challenge (which is the "minimum" EL if this was a miniquest...)
whitebaron 01-07-08, 02:27 PM	Who is our questlord and what EL is the quest going to be? me, snaga is ecl 5, vallgar and uranedal ecl4, right?
TelinArtho 01-07-08, 02:28 PM	me, snaga is ecl 5, vallgar and uranedal ecl4, right? Correct on the ECLs of the characters.
Stormwind 01-07-08, 02:34 PM	Question - Stormwind wanted Varjo (a sdhaow) to end her move in the squere in the same squere as the guy she is fighting. 1)is it possible? 2)does the opponet or varjo provoke AOA's from each other when they attack? 3)do they have cover relative to each other? Tactics were based on the following passage in RoTG (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041005a), under 'Using creatures as cover': Using Creatures as Cover: An incorporeal creature can move through corporeal creatures as well as objects. Likewise, a corporeal can move through an incorporeal creature. Thus 1) Yes 2) Not unless they would provoke normally (e.g. moving out of the square) 3) Only if they attempt to use each other for cover (which requires a specific touch attack or incorporeal touch attack to do so) However Varjo is not attempting to use her opponent as cover, she is just trying to occupy the same space and as mentioned in the last part of the RoTG article on 'Using creatures as cover'.
whitebaron 01-07-08, 02:35 PM	Correct on the ECLs of the characters. actually, it should be at least 6. but i'll go with what you want. :)
dulsi 01-07-08, 02:43 PM	The idea is that 60 should be enough for 1 fight, and I'd recover another 60 for fight 2 and so on.. If I can't (given my load capacity) I can just bring all 460 in fight 1 :) Now that I think about it probably 80 arrows/fight should be enough. Morro is a bit of abomination hit point wise but when in ECL3 he had 38 hit points. Most of his fights involved bow battles. By taking cover the opponents generally needed 20 to hit. 60 arrows averages to 3 hits. So unless you're doing 13 damage per hit, he's probably still up when you're out of ammo. (Granted the one opponent who didn't remove his bow didn't last long enough to use up their arrows.)
McJarvis 01-07-08, 02:57 PM	Morro is a bit of abomination hit point wise but when in ECL3 he had 38 hit points. Most of his fights involved bow battles. By taking cover the opponents generally needed 20 to hit. 60 arrows averages to 3 hits. So unless you're doing 13 damage per hit, he's probably still up when you're out of ammo. (Granted the one opponent who didn't remove his bow didn't last long enough to use up their arrows.) I don't necessarily think that you'll get your cover bonus vs a sniper- but that's a mute point. You could probably just go prone & depend on the AC. And he isn't that much of an abomination. There are plenty of psi-warriors/psions that can pump their hps into the 30's at ecl3. It's probably one of the reasons why CoCo isn't swamped with expendible-happy damage dealers. [magic missile wands, powerstones of energy missile, etc]. Not to mention folks who use dorjes of vigor [eep!]
Zevox 01-07-08, 03:33 PM	Ah yes, vigor can make anyone's hp huge. I've certainly got enough evidence of that in Arden. You see 62 hp, I see 101. That d6 hd on Wilders doesn't look bad at all when you take that power. Speaking of Arden, anybody with an ECL 9 character up for a match this week? I'd like to get him back into the arena, but I see that league has been dead for a while and has few characters to choose from. I could always do a monster match I suppose, but I'd prefer not to. Zevox
TelinArtho 01-07-08, 03:37 PM	I was contemplating activating Aquin - and if someone else is there - I will happily do so.
Zevox 01-07-08, 03:41 PM	Sounds good to me :) . I've been curious to see what that new guy of yours could do ever since I noticed him on the roster, to be honest. I just need to spend Arden's cash from his last cycle and I'll have him ready for this week probably sometime tomorrow. Have to do a monster fight and try to get a prototype of that Sorcerer done tonight. Zevox
CrazyArtificer 01-07-08, 03:45 PM	Well, with 3 characters, we should be able to tear through most EL4 or 5 encounters, in my opinion. EL4 quest with 2 ECL4 and 1 ECL5 characters: 1200*3/3 = 1200xp; 1000*3/3=1000xp. 1000xp for Snaga; 1200xp for Vallgar and Uranedal. EL5 quest would be 1600xp for Vallgar and Uranedal and 1500xp for Snaga. I would be fine with either and would be up for EL6 if you want - possibly EL7 if you want a real challenge (which is the "minimum" EL if this was a miniquest...) Well, this is my first quest so I don't know really. I guess EL 6 or 7 may also be ok. Looking at the rewards I'd go with level 7.. after all we are 3 solid wizards :)
TelinArtho 01-07-08, 03:49 PM	Sounds good to me :) . I've been curious to see what that new guy of yours could do ever since I noticed him on the roster, to be honest. I just need to spend Arden's cash from his last cycle and I'll have him ready for this week probably sometime tomorrow. Have to do a monster fight and try to get a prototype of that Sorcerer done tonight. Zevox Just from a quick glance - I think Arden's got a leg up on Aquin if only because of HP and ability to negate most of Aquin's main defense... We'll have to see how it turns out. And of course - we could get randomly paired in a way we aren't expecting - so you never know...
CrazyArtificer 01-07-08, 03:49 PM	Either or. I don't think it'll matter too much in the long run. If it helps your consideration any- humans usually have more hp. And yeah. Mort's ECL3 run was mostly surrenders and "someone wandered into the forest and was filled with arrows" fights. It's tough to fight at that level- of course you'll have a tougher time of it, since now you can't get the deeper darkness she used. [you'll have to create concealment. Otherwise opponents can move quickly to negate cover]. Also, there are listen checks to attacks now- and even using MS, it's tough to keep hidden for long. Would Concealing Amorpha work for that? I guess I'll go with humans, after all. Morro is a bit of abomination hit point wise but when in ECL3 he had 38 hit points. Most of his fights involved bow battles. By taking cover the opponents generally needed 20 to hit. 60 arrows averages to 3 hits. So unless you're doing 13 damage per hit, he's probably still up when you're out of ammo. (Granted the one opponent who didn't remove his bow didn't last long enough to use up their arrows.) In your case I'd snipe with just 1 arrow/round, making sure it's a psionic shot. If I hit that's 3d6+2 damage, which averages just at 12.5 :). At level 4 I'll already have Psionic Meditation to focus as a move action (focus, snipe)
McJarvis 01-07-08, 03:51 PM	Would Concealing Amorpha work for that? You can hide in it fine- but it's pretty obvious for your opponent where you are. [the big blog thing]. That's still not a bad deal though- you get to shoot at thier flat footed AC & can't be targeted by spells. Essentially you get to treat that concealing amorpha as if it were its big brother, greater concealing amorpha. By contrast- something like darkness or deeper darkness gives you a 20-60ft radius of ambiguity.
Nabuchadnezzar 01-07-08, 03:52 PM	Calidor is ready for battle :D Now it's nigh impossible to change again, but the sniper is what I'm seeking :) What do you think about it?
Zevox 01-07-08, 03:54 PM	Just from a quick glance - I think Arden's got a leg up on Aquin if only because of HP and ability to negate most of Aquin's main defense... We'll have to see how it turns out. And of course - we could get randomly paired in a way we aren't expecting - so you never know... Aye, getting that Deep Impact feat at level 9 was a pretty big boost for Arden, and hp has always been one of his strong suits. I suspect the map could swing things your way if we get a small one, though, since your characters generally don't buff much, while Arden usually wants a few rounds to get up things like vigor, defensive precognition, force screen, and expansion. And you're right about that last of course - inter-league pairings or a team monster fight are always possible. The latter could even be quite interesting. Zevox
CrazyArtificer 01-07-08, 03:58 PM	You can hide in it fine- but it's pretty obvious for your opponent where you are. [the big blog thing]. That's still not a bad deal though- you get to shoot at thier flat footed AC & can't be targeted by spells. Essentially you get to treat that concealing amorpha as if it were its big brother, greater concealing amorpha. Even though it would get expensive.. I would have to drop other powers (precognitions, likely).
CrazyArtificer 01-07-08, 04:02 PM	Calidor is ready for battle :D Now it's nigh impossible to change again, but the sniper is what I'm seeking :) What do you think about it? Those hp are really few, but beside that it seems a solid character.
Nabuchadnezzar 01-07-08, 04:13 PM	I can't get more hp (maybe one extra hp if I take 2 rogue levels and 1 diviner level) without raising Constitution, and I already spent 6 point... 10 is too much :D I'll just hope to survive with total AC of 24 (+4 magic armor, +4 shield, +2 small size), good speed (60 ft) and decent stealth (hide +13, ms +12)... Attack: +8 to-hit (1d6 damage) or 1d4+1 auto-hit if enemy likes cover or has nigh-unbeattable AC. Or I can use Obscuring mist, hide and try a sleep spell if he has low will... Next level I'll take diviner to reach 2nd level spells, and it'll be easier...
TelinArtho 01-07-08, 04:14 PM	I would like, at this time, to remind everyone that every penny your character spends needs to be recorded on your sheet and accounted for. It is not uncommon for me to do an audit of a character and find things amiss by over 1000gp (either in lost money or overspent money) - so it is a good idea to get into good habits earlier rather than later. 1. If you spend money on an ally (familiar - 100gp for instance) - make sure it is recorded in your accounting somewhere. 2. If you spend money on your spellbook (added spells for instance) - make sure it is recorded in your accounting somewhere. These two items have come up twice in recent days - so this is why I am mentioning them specifically now. @Nabuchadnezzar - when I total up the money spent on your sheet, I come up with 25gp less than your total. You might want to check your math there (I can be wrong of course, but I'll let you figure that out...).
Nabuchadnezzar 01-07-08, 04:37 PM	I would like, at this time, to remind everyone that every penny your character spends needs to be recorded on your sheet and accounted for. It is not uncommon for me to do an audit of a character and find things amiss by over 1000gp (either in lost money or overspent money) - so it is a good idea to get into good habits earlier rather than later. 1. If you spend money on an ally (familiar - 100gp for instance) - make sure it is recorded in your accounting somewhere. 2. If you spend money on your spellbook (added spells for instance) - make sure it is recorded in your accounting somewhere. These two items have come up twice in recent days - so this is why I am mentioning them specifically now. @Nabuchadnezzar - when I total up the money spent on your sheet, I come up with 25gp less than your total. You might want to check your math there (I can be wrong of course, but I'll let you figure that out...). You are right! I miss 25 gp from expendable items, I'll put a scroll or two, thanks! 1. I put that under familiar description (miscellanea) 2. I put that under wizard spellbook (last line) Maybe it's better if I sign these thing under a new area ("Others"), below "Equipment at home"
McJarvis 01-07-08, 04:41 PM	You are right! I miss 25 gp from expendable items, I'll put a scroll or two, thanks! 1. I put that under familiar description (miscellanea) 2. I put that under wizard spellbook (last line) Maybe it's better if I sign these thing under a new area ("Others"), below "Equipment at home" A "misc expense" section works as well.
Nabuchadnezzar 01-07-08, 04:48 PM	Edited... Added up 2 scrolls of magic weapon, CL 2 Deleted 2 scrolls of obscuring mist, CL 1 (I have the wand already)
MindWandererB 01-07-08, 04:57 PM	I doubt it. To my knowledge we've only ever given that in the Forest.Perhaps someone may have doing it that way, but: The arena counts as any map type and always grants the full benefits related to terrain-specific boni within the boundaries of common sense.To clarify what the original intent was: Although Uhmentarymster is technically fighting battles in the arena, the character and storyline do not take place in the Arena. Please respect my wishes and for Pitlords: if you write a story for the battle, write the battle as if it were out in the wild, wastes, a jungle, a city, or wherever - just not in the arena.That was before the other maps existed, but the Arena's rules never changed. So yes, it should count as forest.
McJarvis 01-07-08, 05:00 PM	That was before the other maps existed, but the Arena's rules never changed. So yes, it should count as forest. Note that when I created Mort I specifically asked Cat if the arena counted as a forest for the purposes of the forest gnome, and he said that was ridiculus. [and in all of Mort's fights, she always had to use the normal racial +4 instead of a racial +8 for forest fights] edit- Actually, if someone wants to try and search some tavarns- this might have come up when I first came to CoCo and created "Kon" and "Kon the Barbarian". I'll see if I can find the convo myself. double edit- it was a char violation on Kon. I posted the link/short-conversation later. I believe "the arena counts as whatever you want" means nothing will _fail_ to work there- but you don't get boni as if it were a different landscape. For example- if a spell requires the ground be made of wood, it's made of wood. If a spell requires the ground be made of stone, it's made of stone. I think that's what it means, anyway. Not sure.
CrazyArtificer 01-07-08, 05:03 PM	So yes, it should count as forest. There's one happier forest gnome out there.
Stormwind 01-07-08, 05:17 PM	Speaking of Arden, anybody with an ECL 9 character up for a match this week? I'd like to get him back into the arena, but I see that league has been dead for a while and has few characters to choose from. I could always do a monster match I suppose, but I'd prefer not to. Zevox @Telin, Zevox: Varjo will be leveling to ECL9 from this current weeks fight (win or lose), so Arden and Aquin will have some more company for the coming week ... of course you might consider that a monster match too ;)
TelinArtho 01-07-08, 05:19 PM	Now we just need Izumi/Relanex activated for a whole PARTY!
McJarvis 01-07-08, 05:21 PM	Found it[in Cat's words exactly]. link (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-196885-p-5.html) Zerone 07-05-05, 09:34 PM @ McJarvis: Kon the Barbarian's racial bonus to Hide is as follows: +4 racial bonus on Hide checks, which improves to +8 in a wooded area The arena is not a wooded area, therefore he does not gain the extra +4 Hide. So it should be like this (Red = changes): +16 Hide [6 rnks, +2(dex), +4 size, +4 racial] [+4 wooded area] *•. Z -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- McJarvis07-05-05, 09:44 PM In the FAQ it says the arena changes to suit each contestant, so long as the changes are not harmful(ie- flooded arena), which I don't imagine it being wooded would be. Did I misread the intent in the rule?*apologies in advance for confusion* -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Caterane07-05-05, 09:57 PM Hm, yes, but only for the ground or air. The arena is not a forest, nor a mountain range if that would be beneficial. Common sense should apply. We have Quests and Campaigns where all these boni can be of use. Now granted this is close to 3-years old, so we don't _need_ to follow it- but Cat did say his intent out loud. Damn I've been here a long time...though it is heartening to see that a good number of the people posting back then have been around in the last few months.
MindWandererB 01-07-08, 05:52 PM	Grr... in that case, the terrain needs to be clarified there. If it's not forest and it's not mountain, then it's not anything else either except maybe indoors. Which is totally counter to what it says.
TelinArtho 01-07-08, 05:54 PM	I'd rather ignore "Cat's intent" and go with what it has always been stated to be. The arena is a variable environment that is beneficial to each individual in the way that it adds specific skill bonuses, but not in a harmful way to his opponent (so while it might add skill bonuses for an aquatic opponent, it will not fill the arena with water to drown the opponent).
McJarvis 01-07-08, 05:59 PM	I believe the best way to state it is the arena is made out of whatever you want- but it's shape is always an arena. Otherwise a halfling rogue could say "it would be beneficial to me if there were tall grass everywhere & I had concealment" and bam- he would have it. Thus is it not "forest" or "mountain"- but spells that only affect certain types of ground always work on it. (and creatures can always burrow in it, etc) edit- Likewise I don't like the idea of wondrous items that only function underwater suddenly getting to be used "as if" they were underwater- or something similar. Cat was right- common sense should apply.
Nabuchadnezzar 01-07-08, 06:00 PM	I'd rather ignore "Cat's intent" and go with what it has always been stated to be. The arena is a variable environment that is beneficial to each individual in the way that it adds specific skill bonuses, but not in a harmful way to his opponent (so while it might add skill bonuses for an aquatic opponent, it will not fill the arena with water to drown the opponent). That would be a non-sense :D If a character with bonuses if he fights on mountains meets a character with bonuses if he fights on plains... Is the arena map both mountain AND plain? EDIT: I agree with mcjarvis
Stormwind 01-07-08, 06:22 PM	Currently the Arena map states:Terrain Type: The arena counts as any map type and always grants the full benefits related to terrain-specific boni within the boundaries of common sense. I would suggest that the arena description of terrain type should be changed to one of the following: Terrain Type: The arena counts as a neutral environment. The arena negates any terrain penalties but it does not provide any terrain bonuses. Terrain Type: The arena counts as all map types simultaneously. The arena negates any terrain penalties and grants any terrain bonuses. Personally I would prefer the first option (neutral environment).
whitebaron 01-07-08, 07:49 PM	Now we just need Izumi/Relanex activated for a whole PARTY! bad luck with those, as macbrea is taking a break until his move in february. about the arena: if it is neutral, you cannot use e.g. entangle, summon swarm - which are all spells you'd like to use as ecl3 character too. i'd stay with beneficial for everyone, everything - at least for ecl3 and 4. (and yes, this incluse skill bonuses that sound stupid)
MindWandererB 01-07-08, 07:52 PM	Not necessarily--for instance, you can use the grass in the City for Entangle, but it's not a plains, forest, etc. Terrain type has nothing to do with the features there.
Sjiggie 01-07-08, 08:17 PM	Currently the Arena map states: I would suggest that the arena description of terrain type should be changed to one of the following: Terrain Type: The arena counts as a neutral environment. The arena negates any terrain penalties but it does not provide any terrain bonuses. Terrain Type: The arena counts as all map types simultaneously. The arena negates any terrain penalties and grants any terrain bonuses. Personally I would prefer the first option (neutral environment). I like the first one as well. The arena should count as the right terrain for spells such as entangle but shouldn't give racial environment bonuses to skills.
McJarvis 01-07-08, 08:56 PM	As stated before: the arena has always been considered to be made out of whatever is useful to the gladiator, but not harmful to his opponent. So if you have a wall of stone spell, you can cast it in the arena. Entangle likewise depends on the surface it resides on, and the arena is considered composed of correct material for the spell to work. Bonuses due to terrain have nothing to do with the composition of the arena. They have to do- well, with the terrain. Forest terrain means alot more than just having dirt & grass under foot. That's what Cat meant by common sense applies- if you try to specify everything _Exactly_ you'll end up with a long list of do's and don'ts.
hogarth 01-07-08, 09:15 PM	Did anyone else notice the new limit on # of PMs is now 75? :)
McJarvis 01-07-08, 09:17 PM	Did anyone else notice the new limit on # of PMs is now 75? :) Dear Gleemax: Wow, it's been awhile, right? I know I said some harsh things when we saw each other last...and I know our relationship hasn't always been the best. I just want to let you know- I got your gift, and well...I understand that it means alot to you. You're obviously willing to put the effort into this relationship, and now I am too. I hope things work out. Love, McJ
Zevox 01-07-08, 10:56 PM	Dear Gleemax: Wow, it's been awhile, right? I know I said some harsh things when we saw each other last...and I know our relationship hasn't always been the best. I just want to let you know- I got your gift, and well...I understand that it means alot to you. You're obviously willing to put the effort into this relationship, and now I am too. I hope things work out. Love, McJ I chuckled at this. :) Heh, it pretty astounding though. I know when the forums were moved to gleemax our PM boxes were moved up from 20 to 30, but this is a pretty big boost. If memory serves, Cat mentioned that Game Masters and Mods got boxes that could hold 60, which means the new total is a full 25% larger for everyone than even the more privileged had before. Wow. Anyway, arena thing, I'm in favor of working it as the wording has always said it does. It counts as whatever is beneficial to those fighting in it. If that means Forest Gnomes now have a second map to get their hide boost on, I can live with that. Zevox
Book4 01-07-08, 11:19 PM	Dear Gleemax: Wow, it's been awhile, right? I know I said some harsh things when we saw each other last...and I know our relationship hasn't always been the best. I just want to let you know- I got your gift, and well...I understand that it means alot to you. You're obviously willing to put the effort into this relationship, and now I am too. I hope things work out. Love, McJ And my coffee squirts out my nose. wow. And :shifty: I was always under the impression that the arena was supposed to be "best case" vs "best case" not "flat neutral" ... then again I was a terrible pitlord. :smirk:
Nabuchadnezzar 01-08-08, 02:08 AM	Changed opposed school, from necromancy to enchantment... Sleep and (Greater) Heroism aren't enough... Ray of Enfeeblement, False life, Ghoul touch and Spectral Hand are really good instead, and I'm just talking about 1st and 2nd level spells. What about Heroism? Well, if I really want it, I'll drink a potion later...
MindWandererB 01-08-08, 03:34 AM	I chuckled at this. :) Heh, it pretty astounding though. I know when the forums were moved to gleemax our PM boxes were moved up from 20 to 30, but this is a pretty big boost. If memory serves, Cat mentioned that Game Masters and Mods got boxes that could hold 60, which means the new total is a full 25% larger for everyone than even the more privileged had before. Wow. Anyway, arena thing, I'm in favor of working it as the wording has always said it does. It counts as whatever is beneficial to those fighting in it. If that means Forest Gnomes now have a second map to get their hide boost on, I can live with that. ZevoxReally? I seem to recall my PM box doubled rather than tripled when I became GM. Of course, I didn't notice the new change, because now that I'm a Forum Lead as well as GM, I can hold 200....
Nabuchadnezzar 01-08-08, 06:09 AM	I didn't understand well what to do if I want to scribe a scroll. Let's say I lose 1st fight but earn 300 gp. Can I use those gp to scribe scrolls? I think not. If I had 300 gp left from character creation, can I use those gp to scribe a scroll after 1st fight? Am I limited on spells in memory or can I scribe scroll of whatever spell I like that is written in my spellbook? What exactly should I do if I want to craft a magical item (such as scrolls)? I read somewhere that I must link or something, but I didn't understand fully, would you please bring me some examples? Thanks a lot! :)
CrazyArtificer 01-08-08, 06:24 AM	You can only write scrolls between each fight cycle, so you'd have to wait week 3 to create other scrolls, and you can craft everything you want. I believe you could write scrolls as free activity between fights, but you wouldn't be able to use them in the following fights (at least this is how I read it) until a new fight cycle come up.
Nabuchadnezzar 01-08-08, 07:12 AM	Can I craft scrolls of whatever spell I have in my book or am I restricted to those in memory? Let's say I have 300 gp left from character creation, and I earn 300 gp per fight. How many of those gp can I use in scroll scribing after each fight, if any?
templer10 01-08-08, 07:19 AM	Can I craft scrolls of whatever spell I have in my book or am I restricted to those in memory? Let's say I have 300 gp left from character creation, and I earn 300 gp per fight. How many of those gp can I use in scroll scribing after each fight, if any? You can use whatever gold you have on hand to scribe scrolls as a Free activity (up to base price Cost of 1000 GP) each week WHILE fighting, they go to your "At home" section and can't be used during this fight cycle. you can scrbie scrolsl of spells you have in spellbook regrdless if they are in memory on not. the thing iam not sure on is wheter or not you can scribe scrolls during the cycle that will push you over the expendble cap and "throw" the ones you dont want at end of cycle.
CrazyArtificer 01-08-08, 07:22 AM	Can I craft scrolls of whatever spell I have in my book or am I restricted to those in memory? Let's say I have 300 gp left from character creation, and I earn 300 gp per fight. How many of those gp can I use in scroll scribing after each fight, if any? You can craft as a free activity up to 1000 gp of items. I'm waiting for someone else to answer on the first question, as I'm not sure, but if you really want my opinion I guess that since all 3 fights in a Gladius fight cycle take place the same day in game you could only craft from memory. Doing it that way would require casting the spell on the scroll you are writing, so that would use up you available spells for the subsequent fights. To avoid all this troubles, my fellow Uranedal just took a week of Full crafting, crafting his scrolls after the fight cycle, along with an Headband of Intellect.
Nabuchadnezzar 01-08-08, 07:22 AM	How do I explain that I am scribing scroll on my character sheet? what and where should I make link? And link to what? :D
CrazyArtificer 01-08-08, 07:23 AM	the thing iam not sure on is wheter or not you can scribe scrolls during the cycle that will push you over the expendble cap and "throw" the ones you dont want at end of cycle. I see no reason to limit that, as long as one is forced to sell the scrolls exceeding the limit. Just write Free activity: Crafting Scroll of X, 2 Scrolls of Y and 5 Scrolls of Z right to the Ready for Month, Day entry.
Stormwind 01-08-08, 07:23 AM	I didn't understand well what to do if I want to scribe a scroll.First of all you must have the Scribe scroll (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/featsAll.html#scribe-scroll) feat. Then there are two ways in which you can create scrolls. As a free activity you can craft up to 1000gp worth of scrolls (or any other crafted items) As a Full activity you can craft up to 7000gp worth of scrolls (or any other crafted items) Then you must write 'Crafting' in the title line of your character either as a full activity or as a free activity. Details on the crafting should then be written at the very top of your character sheet. Finally, when you update your character for that weeks activities you must link the fight (if you crafted as a free activity) or you must link the weekly 'Character actions' post in the Battles of Gladius thread (if you crafted as a full activity). Your new scrolls will be available once you finish your current 3FC. Let's say I lose 1st fight but earn 300 gp. Can I use those gp to scribe scrolls? I think not. If I had 300 gp left from character creation, can I use those gp to scribe a scroll after 1st fight?You can use any money you have to craft scrolls or anything else with. However the scrolls will not be available until after your current 3FC. Am I limited on spells in memory or can I scribe scroll of whatever spell I like that is written in my spellbook?I'm not 100% certain, but I think that you can scribe any spell that is written in your spellbook. You cannot make use of NPC spellcasting services to scribe scrolls. What exactly should I do if I want to craft a magical item (such as scrolls)? I read somewhere that I must link or something, but I didn't understand fully, would you please bring me some examples?Here is an example of how to link your crafting (using Salrantol's Enoch the Prophet as an example): This week Enoch is crafting 2 scrolls, 1 Pearl of power, and upgrading his Periapt of wisdom. This is being done as a full activity. Thus when Salrantol updates Enoch's equipment after this weeks activities, he adds the following to Enoch's sheet (for the purposes of this example, I will just consider the scrolls): 1 scroll of spell immunity [8] [0 lbs][350 gpC][x] 1 scroll of death ward [7] [0 lbs][350 gpC][x] The C indicates that the item is crafted, and the [x] is the link. In the case that the scrolls would have been crafted as a free activity, then the link should direct you to the fight results instead of the character actions post. Hope that helps.
Salrantol 01-08-08, 07:35 AM	I'm waiting for someone else to answer on the first question, as I'm not sure, but if you really want my opinion I guess that since all 3 fights in a Gladius fight cycle take place the same day in game you could only craft from memory.Technically, it's not "the same day" since, for example, in one 3FC Enoch the Prophet fought Longshot twice, but Longshot was well into his next 3FC by the second time they faced off. If I may paraphrase Caterane when the 3FC was implemented, it's just another day when you happened to expend exactly the same amount of resources earlier on. This makes everything a lot easier.
CrazyArtificer 01-08-08, 07:40 AM	Ah, now it sounds more logical, indeed.
Nabuchadnezzar 01-08-08, 07:59 AM	Thank you :) I should have understood now :D I think I'll craft scrolls extensively... they are cheap and I plan to use one of them in each fight to buff myself... What about writing new spells in the spellbook? Is that another activity? Can I do both? Is it correct that I can use any gold earned from 1st and 2nd level fights to buy (or craft) whatever I like, a new bow for example, but I can't use that bow until after 3rd fight?
Stormwind 01-08-08, 08:35 AM	What about writing new spells in the spellbook? Is that another activity? Can I do both?Writing new spells in the spellbook is simply a purchase, just like any other purchase. (see below for further details on purchasing) Is it correct that I can use any gold earned from 1st and 2nd level fights to buy (or craft) whatever I like, a new bow for example, but I can't use that bow until after 3rd fight?You can't purchase anything during a 3FC until after your 3rd fight. The only thing that you can do with your money during a 3FC is crafting magical items as a free activity. This usually means that your gold grows for 3 fights (unless you are crafting) and then you spend it before your next 3FC. Of course some of us also save up for long periods so as to be able to afford those expensive toys as well ;)
hogarth 01-08-08, 08:43 AM	You can't purchase anything during a 3FC until after your 3rd fight. The only thing that you can do with your money during a 3FC is crafting magical items as a free activity. Well, there's a Discount free activity that allows you to buy something, but you still can't use it until your next cycle. Nabuchadnezzar, crafting scrolls as a Free activity is not terribly popular, considering that you can use your Free activities to earn money (with the Craft skill, say) and then use a Full activity in between cycles to craft scrolls.
Stormwind 01-08-08, 09:05 AM	Well, there's a Discount free activity that allows you to buy something, but you still can't use it until your next cycle. Hmmm ... true, I forgotten about that ... ;)
McJarvis 01-08-08, 09:28 AM	I didn't understand well what to do if I want to scribe a scroll. Let's say I lose 1st fight but earn 300 gp. Can I use those gp to scribe scrolls? I think not. If I had 300 gp left from character creation, can I use those gp to scribe a scroll after 1st fight? Am I limited on spells in memory or can I scribe scroll of whatever spell I like that is written in my spellbook? What exactly should I do if I want to craft a magical item (such as scrolls)? I read somewhere that I must link or something, but I didn't understand fully, would you please bring me some examples? Thanks a lot! :) Check out Thorell. He scribed scrolls between his first and second 3FC, and now he is paying 1o to "fast track" scribing scrolls after his second 3FC. This fast tracking crafting for credits thing is getting a big thumbs up from me.
Nabuchadnezzar 01-08-08, 09:39 AM	Well, there's a Discount free activity that allows you to buy something, but you still can't use it until your next cycle. Nabuchadnezzar, crafting scrolls as a Free activity is not terribly popular, considering that you can use your Free activities to earn money (with the Craft skill, say) and then use a Full activity in between cycles to craft scrolls. Now I can't earn money with free activities... No craft/perform/profession at rank 5 until level 5, when I'll put rank 5 in perform(dance). And I can't craft expensive items until level 9, when I take Craft Wondrous Item and Craft Wand (as 5th level diviner). So I think I'll craft scrolls as free activity, at least until level 5. I must take requirements for Arcane Trickster and Shadowdancer to enter in these prc as soon as possible, then I must max out Hide, Move Silently, Spot, Listen and Escape Artist. I doubt I can earn much with my 5 ranks in perform(dance) from level 5 either (total +4 wich Cha 8)... Maybe I can afford to raise a craft ability instead of Climb and a rank from Spellcraft/Concentration
McJarvis 01-08-08, 09:43 AM	Now I can't earn money with free activities... No craft/perform/profession at rank 5 until level 5, when I'll put rank 5 in perform(dance). And I can't craft expensive items until level 9, when I take Craft Wondrous Item and Craft Wand (as 5th level diviner). So I think I'll craft scrolls as free activity, at least until level 5. I must take requirements for Arcane Trickster and Shadowdancer to enter in these prc as soon as possible, then I must max out Hide, Move Silently, Spot, Listen and Escape Artist. I doubt I can earn much with my 5 ranks in perform(dance) from level 5 either (total +4 wich Cha 8)... Maybe I can afford to raise a craft ability instead of Climb and a rank from Spellcraft/Concentration If it makes you feel any better- I see free activity optimization as practically meaningless in the long run :)
Nabuchadnezzar 01-08-08, 09:56 AM	Well, I don't need climb if I can use a Spider Climb scroll ;) I don't need too many degrees in Knowledge (Arcana)... I need ranks to maximize other things. Now that I think, I don't need Concentration either... I cast spells hidden or as buffs, behind cover. If I am based, I'll withdraw rather than cast a spell :D If I am grappling, I'll use escape artist skill! So I can afford to take at least 5 ranks in both Craft and Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty). Now I will edit my activity, I hope I write down things correctly :D
hogarth 01-08-08, 09:57 AM	If it makes you feel any better- I see free activity optimization as practically meaningless in the long run :) I think that's largely true (100 gp more or less is just random noise), but there are a few notable exceptions IMO (Sell Item/Discount, Gather Information & Intimidate can have a noticeable effect).
templer10 01-08-08, 10:13 AM	I think that's largely true (100 gp more or less is just random noise), but there are a few notable exceptions IMO (Sell Item/Discount, Gather Information & Intimidate can have a noticeable effect). Not sure you are correct there - Lord lorian has earned i would estimate between 3000 to 6000 GP on his free activity from level 3 to 13 and those arent even close to being maxed out - iam sure you can get much higher then that - it's nut Gufe chanks of cash - but it's nothing to sneeze at.
McJarvis 01-08-08, 10:17 AM	but it's nothing to sneeze at. I think it is. Lord Lorian also currently has 140k+ gp, which means you're only about 4% "richer" than a counterpart who just didn't bother. *sneezes* ;) edit- You get more bang than that on winnings from 1 dose of loser rewards at that level. (4,333gp for losing a match at ECL13) - and it took you 30-some fights to get there...
Nabuchadnezzar 01-08-08, 10:17 AM	Edited! Please make sure I did all correctly... Court Connections + Earn Money (Craft (Bookbinding)) are worth 68-69 gp per week for me :D I'll Earn Money for the first 2 fights, then I'll craft some scrolls for the 3rd fight, so that next cycle I'll have the same Expendable Items ;) EDIT: I think that Political Carreer isn't a big deal... You level up faster, but so you lessen Court Connections effectiveness because you actually fight less and so earn less money from Free Activity :)
hogarth 01-08-08, 10:31 AM	I think it is. Lord Lorian also currently has 140k+ gp, which means you're only about 4% "richer" than a counterpart who just didn't bother. *sneezes* ;) edit- You get more bang than that on winnings from 1 dose of loser rewards at that level. (4,333gp for losing a match at ECL13) - and it took you 30-some fights to get there... You took the words out of my mouth (except for the sneeze). Lord Lorian has a 6,000 gp dorje of Crystal Shard he hasn't even used yet -- I doubt he'd miss it if it were gone. As you said, if you do the math you'll find that one 3FC worth of free activity crafting is worth less than one loser reward at every level; it gets less important as time goes on as well (because crafting income is linear with level, but gp rewards are more than linear).
Nabuchadnezzar 01-08-08, 10:40 AM	You took the words out of my mouth (except for the sneeze). Lord Lorian has a 6,000 gp dorje of Crystal Shard he hasn't even used yet -- I doubt he'd miss it if it were gone. As you said, if you do the math you'll find that one 3FC worth of free activity crafting is worth less than one loser reward at every level; it gets less important as time goes on as well (because crafting income is linear with level, but gp rewards are more than linear). It's true, but it is still worth it if the only other option is, say... Guard Home :D Well, I can craft scrolls, but 1000 gp per week means 500 gp of free expendables. But if I don't waste scrolls, I can use my free action to gain a tip :D
templer10 01-08-08, 10:52 AM	You took the words out of my mouth (except for the sneeze). Lord Lorian has a 6,000 gp dorje of Crystal Shard he hasn't even used yet -- I doubt he'd miss it if it were gone. As you said, if you do the math you'll find that one 3FC worth of free activity crafting is worth less than one loser reward at every level; it gets less important as time goes on as well (because crafting income is linear with level, but gp rewards are more than linear). True enough i suppose- althrough why say no to free gold? also- lord lorians might not be the best example here since he does tend to win almost all the time, If you lose more you get more Gold through free activity (in actuality and in relation to total gold earned). P.s - Lord lorian is kind of odd in that he has a TON of dorja's - even for me, Think how it would look - hell need a bandolier for them more or less....
McJarvis 01-08-08, 10:56 AM	P.s - Lord lorian is kind of odd in that he has a TON of dorja's - even for me, Think how it would look - hell need a bandolier for them more or less.... I bet he gets mistaken for an artificer at parties ALL the time :)
hogarth 01-08-08, 11:33 AM	True enough i suppose- althrough why say no to free gold? I agree. But it's not worth fiddling around in order to squeak out every extra gp in most cases. Just take 5 ranks in the skill of your choice; then you can "set it and forget it". (Masterwork tool is optional.) :)
TelinArtho 01-08-08, 12:19 PM	So @TDD and @CA - we are waiting until the 16th to get started right?
Nabuchadnezzar 01-08-08, 01:33 PM	I read that it's possible to make adventurer parties, who fight together. Would anyone like to make such an adventuring party? We'll start out at level 3 and create character from scratch :) We'll decide together our classes, so that we can match each other well within the group... I have only 1 character ready, so I can prepare another one, only to play in a group :) What do you think about it? It should be cool! :D
lonewolf 01-08-08, 01:48 PM	As a member of the only 3 person party in CoCo, I can tell you that writing tactics for a 3 person party is a considerable effort, and I wouldnt suggest playing one if you have to rely on PMs for communication. 2 Person parties should be easier to manage, but still you should expect more work for a partymember than for a normal character. That said, it is a lot of fun and I can recommend playing one. For me, one party is enough, but I think there are several people out there also itching to try out a party in CoCo.
Nabuchadnezzar 01-08-08, 02:15 PM	I have msn too... I seek fun indeed :D One problem is language, my english isn't perfect, but if you can manage that I'm ready for fun ;)
McJarvis 01-08-08, 02:20 PM	I have msn too... I seek fun indeed :D One problem is language, my english isn't perfect, but if you can manage that I'm ready for fun ;) You punctuate. That's more than most English speakers do.
Zevox 01-08-08, 02:41 PM	You punctuate. That's more than most English speakers do. Aye, the unfortunate reality of the internet... Zevox
Nabuchadnezzar 01-08-08, 02:44 PM	You punctuate. That's more than most English speakers do. lol :D Is there an official thread that I should look to find a group? Or is this the best one? ;)
Salrantol 01-08-08, 02:47 PM	Not sure you are correct there - Lord lorian has earned i would estimate between 3000 to 6000 GP on his free activity from level 3 to 13 and those arent even close to being maxed out - iam sure you can get much higher then that - it's nut Gufe chanks of cash - but it's nothing to sneeze at.To be specific, Lord Lorian has earned 5135.42 gp with free action crafting in his career.
Zevox 01-08-08, 02:57 PM	General query: can Wild Surge be used on prebuff powers? I'd imagine it would be okay, just have the pitlord roll enervation and take off any pp lost to it beforehand if it kicks in (since the stun won't last until the fight), but I want to make sure. I just got Arden the Powerstoring enhancement on his greatsword, and I've long been planning on having him use wild-surged dissipating touches in that, so it'd be nice to know if he can prebuff them or not. Zevox
McJarvis 01-08-08, 03:01 PM	General query: can Wild Surge be used on prebuff powers? I'd imagine it would be okay, just have the pitlord roll enervation and take off any pp lost to it beforehand if it kicks in (since the stun won't last until the fight), but I want to make sure. I just got Arden the Powerstoring enhancement on his greatsword, and I've long been planning on having him use wild-surged dissipating touches in that, so it'd be nice to know if he can prebuff them or not. Zevox More specifically- I think the question of whether you can surge above that 5pp limit on the weapon would come into play. When I asked regarding prebuffing hundreds of bestow powers using a power-saving torc, I was shot down. [IIRC]
Zevox 01-08-08, 03:08 PM	More specifically- I think the question of whether you can surge above that 5pp limit on the weapon would come into play. When I asked regarding prebuffing hundreds of bestow powers using a power-saving torc, I was shot down. [IIRC] Oh, I think theres no question that surging above the 5 pp limit is out. The surge just provides the pp for you, they're still there to take up the limit. I've never intended to try to argue something like that. Its just standard policy for Arden to use surges to reduce the cost to himself on most of his powers - e.g. he'll do 1 pp + 2 surge expansions instead of 3 pp ones, 2 pp + 2 surge defensive precognitions instead of 4 pp ones, and in this case he'd want to do 1-3 pp + 2 surge dissipating touches into his powerstoring blade. Don't know what the torc/bestow power thing has to do with wild surging prebuffs though. Zevox
McJarvis 01-08-08, 03:10 PM	Don't know what the torc/bestow power thing has to do with wild surging prebuffs though. the torc reduces costs of powers by 1. I wanted to bestow power/surge it so I would achieve pp gain & completely recharge in between fights in the cycle. Then "The Man" stepped in and said "Shinanigans". I'm all for random effects being prebuffed[false life would be a great example allowing you to do what you want] - but the only example of questions regarding prebuffing wild surges made me think of my off-beat request :)
hogarth 01-08-08, 03:22 PM	I'm all for random effects being prebuffed[false life would be a great example allowing you to do what you want] - but the only example of questions regarding prebuffing wild surges made me think of my off-beat request :) I had the impression (based on precisely nothing, I'm sure) that prebuffing something with a chance of an adverse result was not possible. I think I'd count Enervation as more of an adverse result than rolling a 1 for False Life. But again, this is all based on nothing concrete (as far as I know), and has nothing to do with the Bestow Power trick.
McJarvis 01-08-08, 03:35 PM	I had the impression (based on precisely nothing, I'm sure) that prebuffing something with a chance of an adverse result was not possible. I think I'd count Enervation as more of an adverse result than rolling a 1 for False Life. I dunno. Sometimes you can have too many powerpoints, right? ;)
MindWandererB 01-08-08, 04:05 PM	As you said, if you do the math you'll find that one 3FC worth of free activity crafting is worth less than one loser reward at every level; it gets less important as time goes on as well (because crafting income is linear with level, but gp rewards are more than linear).Here's said math: if you win every fight, and start off with a +10 Craft/Profession modifier, and it goes up by only 1 per level, you'll have earned around 18,000 gp with it by ECL 16. If you lose every fight, it's about 54,000. 50/50 is about 27,000 gp. Of course, these are variable based on your and your opponent's allies. If you manage to get a -25% on all your fights, and lose them all, it goes up to over 71,000 gp! So free activites are mainly important if you suck.
TelinArtho 01-08-08, 04:34 PM	I'd like to review a question I once had that I never followed up on enough to get a full answer. I'm not putting this in the courtroom so to not derail the current issue there: [Post 860] Author : TelinArtho Date : 02-23-07 02:18 PM Thread Title : Re: Core Coliseum Tavern (VIII) Here's a deliciously ambiguous line from the skeleton entry: Special Qualities: A skeleton loses most special qualities of the base creature. It retains any extraordinary special qualities that improve its melee or ranged attacks. So, if I had a character animate a cheetah - the cheetah would certainly lose its trip ability (because it is a special attack). However, would the cheetah lose its sprint ability: Trip (Ex): A cheetah that hits with a claw or bite attack can attempt to trip the opponent (+3 check modifier) as a free action without making a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity. If the attempt fails, the opponent cannot react to trip the cheetah. Sprint (Ex): Once per hour, a cheetah can move ten times its normal speed (500 feet) when it makes a charge. [Post 861] Author : hogarth Date : 02-23-07 02:27 PM Thread Title : Re: Core Coliseum Tavern (VIII) The Sprint ability doesn't improve its melee attacks, IMO. [Post 862] Author : TelinArtho Date : 02-23-07 02:29 PM Thread Title : Re: Core Coliseum Tavern (VIII) Really? A 500ft charge is a vast improvement over a 100ft charge... [Post 866] Author : MindWandererB Date : 02-23-07 03:20 PM Thread Title : Re: Core Coliseum Tavern (VIII) Since it's specifically a charge, and not any other kind of movement, I would give it to it. This would be in contrast to, say, the squid, which cannot use its similar ability on a charge. Class abilities should never apply, except for weapon proficiencies. (It says nothing about armor, but the human warrior skeleton has a shield....)
hogarth 01-08-08, 04:45 PM	Re: cheetah skeletons I misstated myself before. The Sprint ability obviously does improve an attack, so the skeleton should keep it (as the rules state). Note that as a DM I would overrule this on that grounds that I think it's dumb (if a cheetah skeleton can sprint, why can't it sprint all the time? -- it never gets tired, after all).
whitebaron 01-08-08, 04:50 PM	EDIT: I think that Political Carreer isn't a big deal... You level up faster, but so you lessen Court Connections effectiveness because you actually fight less and so earn less money from Free Activity :) yes, thats exactly the deal. you level up faster, thus you get faster to higher levels. for some builds that peak later, or some builds that just get lots of skill points they don't need, this is a good deal. for others, which use packages, this is just a nuisance since it eats up at least 10 ranks, but more likely 3+lvl. just checking: alter self(troglodyte) - according to coco rules, it would be enough to have bardic knowledge +4 to cast it, right?
TelinArtho 01-08-08, 04:58 PM	correct on the alter self.
Salrantol 01-08-08, 05:03 PM	just checking: alter self(troglodyte) - according to coco rules, it would be enough to have bardic knowledge +4 to cast it, right?Yes, but if you want to take advantage of a bard's ability to cast in light armor, you better pay extra for troglodyte "non-Humanoid" armor. :rant:
Stormwind 01-08-08, 05:24 PM	Varjo is interested in going on a miniquest (ECL9) to acquire an ally, and I'm looking for someone to run it. Ideally, the miniquest would combine elements from her previous quests, (particulary the church of Denth and Varjo's nemesis, the tiefling cleric) and one new element (Chanadar forest). If anyone is interested in questlording it, please send me a PM.
whitebaron 01-08-08, 05:46 PM	Yes, but if you want to take advantage of a bard's ability to cast in light armor, you better pay extra for troglodyte "non-Humanoid" armor. :rant: well, i have not decided on anything yet. also, i seem to lack the money to even buy such armor. *g* @telin, crazy and tdd: it would be nice to get some goals up, so we i can prepare a bit for the quest. also, it would be good to have the ecl you aim for to prepare an encounter.
Stormwind 01-08-08, 06:21 PM	Has any character (with the leadership feat), ever used their followers? If so, then how?
Zevox 01-08-08, 06:57 PM	Has any character (with the leadership feat), ever used their followers? If so, then how? I seem to recall Mitza had a Unicorn that did so at one point, but only briefly. I've considered it for Asran, but the one thing I could think of to do effectively with his wouldn't work unless I could get his Furies trained for combat riding, and I messed that up in their initial training and never got a solid response when I asked if I could change one of their tricks by re-training the new one over it or somesuch. Zevox
hogarth 01-08-08, 07:10 PM	Has any character (with the leadership feat), ever used their followers? If so, then how? Reginald Molehusband has; he used a 1st level psion a couple of times (another pair of hands for firing dorjes, plus another psicrystal) and a 1st level wizard once (a free Mount spell). I treated them as additional cohorts (e.g. 25 point buy, PC classes allowed). Mostly the intent was to have some backup in case his (main) cohort died.
Nabuchadnezzar 01-08-08, 07:38 PM	From the SRD: Tumble You can land softly when you fall or tumble past opponents. You can also tumble to entertain an audience (as though using the Perform skill). Can I use Tumble to Earn Money?
McJarvis 01-08-08, 07:44 PM	From the SRD: Can I use Tumble to Earn Money? not yet In order to make money from a skill, it needs to be listed in the single-skill free activities listed in the rules of gladius. We have not done that with tumble- and I believe it's because we don't want "useful" skills being used to make money.
Nabuchadnezzar 01-08-08, 07:52 PM	This is a houserule however... It should be mentioned somewhere in the skill and feat section ;)
McJarvis 01-08-08, 08:25 PM	This is a houserule however... It should be mentioned somewhere in the skill and feat section ;) We're not going to mention every skill that doesn't make money. You may use skills as free activities for the purposes specified with the specified skill- no more and no less.
McJarvis 01-08-08, 08:36 PM	Reginald Molehusband has; he used a 1st level psion a couple of times (another pair of hands for firing dorjes, plus another psicrystal) and a 1st level wizard once (a free Mount spell). I treated them as additional cohorts (e.g. 25 point buy, PC classes allowed). Mostly the intent was to have some backup in case his (main) cohort died. Aside from the obvious "your 12 donkeys didn't do much good", it would be kind of funny to have 4-5 wizards just constantly casting mount & throwing them as road blocks on the battlefield. I'd feel bad for the Pitlord though. I won't do that.
Nabuchadnezzar 01-08-08, 08:45 PM	The problem is with Tumble only, it would be a clarification on that skill only. None would use Ride, or Psicraft to make money, but Tumble (and ONLY Tumble) has that entry in the SRD... it's not my fault :D This is why I thought that a clarification would have been a good thing. I'm not complaining, it's only a suggestion ;) Besides, I made another character (I'm going to tell Pitlords of him right now). That's it! Thunderim "Psibane" o'Gunarr What do you think about him? :D
Durzulgor 01-08-08, 08:47 PM	Here's said math: if you win every fight, and start off with a +10 Craft/Profession modifier, and it goes up by only 1 per level, you'll have earned around 18,000 gp with it by ECL 16. If you lose every fight, it's about 54,000. 50/50 is about 27,000 gp. Of course, these are variable based on your and your opponent's allies. If you manage to get a -25% on all your fights, and lose them all, it goes up to over 71,000 gp! So free activites are mainly important if you suck. you know, that's exactly the idea behind Undurion! ;-) Unfortunately he already won a fight! ^^
McJarvis 01-08-08, 08:48 PM	you know, that's exactly the idea behind Undurion! ;-) Unfortunately he already won a fight! ^^ Better be careful. We've had one gladiator executed for trying to abuse the crafting rules by losing every fight. You'll know your down a dangerous road when people accuse you of "mavaning"
McJarvis 01-08-08, 08:49 PM	None would use Ride, or Psicraft to make money, but Tumble (and ONLY Tumble) has that entry in the SRD... What, you've never played "Guess what's in my stone?" or gone to a rodeo before?
Durzulgor 01-08-08, 08:50 PM	well, you'll never see me writhing tactics that are obvious loosing ones (exept if I miss something)! I'll never surrender f.ex.
SauroGrenom 01-08-08, 08:52 PM	Man... I'v got to tell someone about my day. This was a booping bad day. OK, day two of back to medschool. Neuro block. I've had this sour throat for about a week now. Getting worse. Strangely the tonsule on the left side of my throat hurts... bad. The right side is normal. *Shrug* go figure. Most people don't notice it, but you probably swallow about 5 times every minute normally. You just swallow the snot and phlem all day long w/o noticing it. But for me, this hurts due to the tonsule. I live with it for 5 or 6 days just hoping it's a virus and it will go away. But it just gets more painful. So today I'm in neuro lab (looking at fixed brains trying to identify all the little stubs of the 12 cranial nerves) and this is so bad that I cannot help but cringe every time I swallow... every ten seconds or so. This is a problem, I think to myself... Time to get some professional help, no? So I walk over to the student health clinic (undergrad isn't in session, so there's no line). A nice doctor Lou sees me and runs some tests, tells me that I've probably got a paratonsular abscess (puss bag in my neck). Surgical intervention necessary to drain the mother... He thinks this is bad enough, that he gets me an appointment with the ENT (Ear, Nose & Throat) that day... like two hours away. That would be great, but I've got all these medschool classes that I'll miss. So I miss class, and they get me in to see the ENT. This guy is a professor emeritus (old timer). He gets the report from the nurse, primary complaint, vitals... I can see this going on through the open door down the hall about 20 yards away. He turns to me and shouts, "Open your mouth!"... I do, and he says, "You don't have a paratonsular abscess." Two minutes later he come in with three medical students following, and one of them is in my class... awkward moment... Then he proceeds to explain to everyone that a paratonsular abscess invades the masciter muscle (I think that's what it was called) and makes it extremely painful to use that muscle (it opens the mouth). Then this guy says that I have a severe case of unilateral tonsillitis,... and I need to spend the night in the hospital! I'm thinking about the back of my health insurance card which says: Office Visit $20 Co-pay Hospital Visit $150/day He explains that in the hospital they can use IV antibiotics, and clear this up in a day. While oral antibiotics will take several days. And since I'm a medical student, he thinks I should spend a day in the hospital as a patient! Just for the experience of it. In the end, it wasn't so bad. I got the antibiotics orally, so I won't miss class. I got a new pain med, supposedly better than ibuprofen but that has yet to prove itself. And I'm at home, everything aches, I'm tired, my brain is goo... and I think I'm running a fever. Funny thing is that I'm a med student, and I don't have anything but a meat thermometer... so I don't know if I'm feverish or not. I suppose it could have been worse, but the way I feel now is about at a grade 3 hangover. Meh... I'm glad Kracknol won. That guy was one battle away from failure. *Sigh* I'm going to take a bath.
McJarvis 01-08-08, 09:03 PM	man, that sounds rough. If I were a DJ- I'd dedicate the song "Havin a Bad Day" to you right now.
The Dread Dormammu 01-08-08, 09:04 PM	@telin, crazy and tdd: it would be nice to get some goals up, so we i can prepare a bit for the quest. also, it would be good to have the ecl you aim for to prepare an encounter. I'd rather do 6 than 7. Snaga's sick of losing (just found out I came in second instead of first for my first free for all, and dead last in my most recent one). Quest goal coming up...
The Dread Dormammu 01-08-08, 09:18 PM	Scrolls scrolls scrolls, Snaga wants to learn every spell! (Better just give me the gold).
Stormwind 01-09-08, 02:59 AM	Man... I'v got to tell someone about my day. This was a booping bad day. <snip> So I walk over to the student health clinic (undergrad isn't in session, so there's no line). A nice doctor Lou sees me and runs some tests, tells me that I've probably got a paratonsular abscess (puss bag in my neck). Surgical intervention necessary to drain the mother... He thinks this is bad enough, that he gets me an appointment with the ENT (Ear, Nose & Throat) that day... like two hours away. That would be great, but I've got all these medschool classes that I'll miss. So I miss class, and they get me in to see the ENT. <snip>Definitely not a fun day ... although I speak from experience when I say that having a paratonsular abscess drained is not funTM, so at least you were spared that. Hope you're feeling better soon Storm
Durzulgor 01-09-08, 03:00 AM	Skills: A psicrystal has the same skill ranks as its owner,... Could my psicrystal take the "aid another" action for my profession, since it has +7 there as well?
MindWandererB 01-09-08, 04:03 AM	@Sauro: Ick. But after all that... pray that the emeritus guy is right. He probably is, but in my experience it's both the very young and the very old doctors that make the most mistakes.... Too bad you're not like the med students who were in my wife's classes. Attendance was less than 50% most of the time; they just studied off co-op notes.
CrazyArtificer 01-09-08, 06:22 AM	Thank you :) I should have understood now :D I think I'll craft scrolls extensively... they are cheap and I plan to use one of them in each fight to buff myself... Just remember that sometimes it's not so easy to cast a scroll. Drawing a scroll is always a move action, so if you need to cast a spell while fighting you can't move. Sometimes this means death. Another downside is that if you draw+scroll every time for the initial x buffing rounds you won't move (beside a 5' step). That's why my scrolls (or powerstones) are always multiple spells ones, so that I draw them only once and keep them in hand until I complete the casting routine (example: 1) start with buffing scroll in hand, cast mage armor. 2) cast shield+move or retrieve something useful 3) cast reduce person+ another move action 4) cast expeditious retreat+move etc etc). Scrolls scrolls scrolls, Snaga wants to learn every spell! (Better just give me the gold). Now that I think about it.. what if we swap spells while questing? Is this against CoCo rules? I'd say go for EL 6 at this point. And yes, we'll go questing on 16th.
CrazyArtificer 01-09-08, 06:42 AM	A question on Mercenaries.. can I create them using UA variant rules?
hogarth 01-09-08, 06:49 AM	Could my psicrystal take the "aid another" action for my profession, since it has +7 there as well? No, other characters aren't allowed to help you with free or full activities.
Nabuchadnezzar 01-09-08, 07:16 AM	Just remember that sometimes it's not so easy to cast a scroll. Drawing a scroll is always a move action, so if you need to cast a spell while fighting you can't move. Sometimes this means death. Another downside is that if you draw+scroll every time for the initial x buffing rounds you won't move (beside a 5' step). That's why my scrolls (or powerstones) are always multiple spells ones, so that I draw them only once and keep them in hand until I complete the casting routine (example: 1) start with buffing scroll in hand, cast mage armor. 2) cast shield+move or retrieve something useful 3) cast reduce person+ another move action 4) cast expeditious retreat+move etc etc). If you look at my expendables, you'll notice that I have a 4-spell scroll for every fight of the 3FC with the spells you mentioned... I think that I'll lose often before level 8, when I get HiPS, but let's see :D
Stormwind 01-09-08, 07:32 AM	Continuing on from my earlier question regarding bringing followers into the arena, that would seem to allow the following situation: Varjo takes leadership feat at ECL 9 Varjo acquires 25 level 1 followers (Leadership score of 16) Varjo prebuffs with 7 level 1 followers Fight starts Varjo kills all 7 level 1 followers herself (7 rounds) All 7 followers rise as CR3 shadows under Varjo's control (1d4 rounds after being killed) -> by round 11 Varjo has 7xCR3 shadows Varjo lets her 7 newly risen shadows kill her opponent(s) Varjo only takes penalties for CA 7 (7 x ECL1) => 25% penalty After considering this, it seems the same sort of situation as bringing a figurine (e.g. bronze griffon) into the arena (which also avoids proper ally penalties). That all being said, it seems somewhat wrong to me, although I can't put my finger on anything that would prevent this strategy. If anyone has any comments or insight into anything that I've missed here, I would welcome another opinion.
Nabuchadnezzar 01-09-08, 07:35 AM	He would permanently lose Leadership points if he kills his own minions... But if he was a Trallherd... :D
Stormwind 01-09-08, 07:42 AM	He would permanently lose Leadership points if he kills his own minions... But if he was a Trallherd... :D Actually she wouldn't lose leadership points because of the Nimbus. As stated in the rules:Leadership Modifiers: Special circumstances may modify your Leadership score (DMG,p106/107). If you have a familiar, a special mount, or an animal companion (all from a class feature), your leadership score drops by 2. If you recruit a cohort of different alignment, your leadership score drops by 1. If you caused the death of your cohort (outside the Nimbus only), your leadership score permanently drops by 1 per deceased cohort. and Death of an Ally If a cohort or ally dies in one of the various Battles of Gladius (or otherwise inside the Nimbus), it is True Ressurected, re-summoned, re-animated, or otherwise made whole again, for free, after the 3-Fight Cycle is complete. There will be no negative side-effects from losing an ally (eg paladin's mount, familiar). Until then, however, the ally is not available and cannot assist you in any way. He's basically... dead. Thus you would only lose leadership points if you use this strategy on quests or campaigns, but not with normal fights.
CrazyArtificer 01-09-08, 07:59 AM	If you look at my expendables, you'll notice that I have a 4-spell scroll for every fight of the 3FC with the spells you mentioned... I think that I'll lose often before level 8, when I get HiPS, but let's see :D Are you referring to: 3 Scrolls of Mage Armor [CL 1], Expeditious Retreat [CL 2], Reduce Person [CL 2], Shield [CL 2], Protection from Evil [CL 2]C (Creation) [0.0 lb each = 0 lbs][112.5 gp each = 337.5 gp]? If I were your pitlord it would take me a while to understand that wording. Have a look at Uranedal expendables (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14349473&postcount=1264) section. I think it's clearer that way :)
Nabuchadnezzar 01-09-08, 08:11 AM	I added {} to scrolls Maybe it's clearer now ;)
McJarvis 01-09-08, 08:19 AM	That all being said, it seems somewhat wrong to me, although I can't put my finger on anything that would prevent this strategy. If anyone has any comments or insight into anything that I've missed here, I would welcome another opinion. If it became a problem, it could quickly be ruled that slain allies get removed from the arena if they can not be healed back. This would mean shadows would be running all over the med-wards of the arena- but not helping you in the arena itself. Death of an Ally If a cohort or ally dies in one of the various Battles of Gladius (or otherwise inside the Nimbus), it is True Ressurected, re-summoned, re-animated, or otherwise made whole again You can revive someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed. This spell can also resurrect elementals or outsiders, but it can’t resurrect constructs or undead creatures. You'd need to destroy them all.
CrazyArtificer 01-09-08, 08:25 AM	If it became a problem, it could quickly be ruled that slain allies get removed from the arena if they can not be healed back. This would mean shadows would be running all over the med-wards of the arena- but not helping you in the arena itself. Fine. Let's assume that Varjo prebuffs 7 level 1 sorcerers. Lots of magic missiles coming, I'd say. (7d4+7/round--->24.5 damage/round for at least a couple of rounds..)
hogarth 01-09-08, 08:30 AM	Continuing on from my earlier question regarding bringing followers into the arena, that would seem to allow the following situation: Varjo takes leadership feat at ECL 9 Varjo acquires 25 level 1 followers (Leadership score of 16) Varjo prebuffs with 7 level 1 followers Fight starts Varjo kills all 7 level 1 followers herself (7 rounds) All 7 followers rise as CR3 shadows under Varjo's control (1d4 rounds after being killed) -> by round 11 Varjo has 7xCR3 shadows Varjo lets her 7 newly risen shadows kill her opponent(s) Varjo only takes penalties for CA 7 (7 x ECL1) => 25% penalty Oddly enough, I proposed doing the exact same thing with Reginald Molehusband although in his case it would've been a shadow Diplomacy ally. But then Diplomacy allies were removed from the game and I had to think of something else.
McJarvis 01-09-08, 08:42 AM	Fine. Let's assume that Varjo prebuffs 7 level 1 sorcerers. Lots of magic missiles coming, I'd say. (7d4+7/round--->24.5 damage/round for at least a couple of rounds..) Jeppz! That's one of the possibilities I'm considering with marius. I'd prolly go with Grey Elf wizards with 20 ints each, evoc. specialization. With 3 magic missiles per combat and 1 casting of mount, they would be nice artillery//road block creators. I dunno if it's a broken tactic, though, since they are pretty glass-jawed & have no way of seeing invisible creatures. [or anything else that blocks LOS]
hogarth 01-09-08, 09:10 AM	Jeppz! That's one of the possibilities I'm considering with marius. I'd prolly go with Grey Elf wizards with 20 ints each, evoc. specialization. With 3 magic missiles per combat and 1 casting of mount, they would be nice artillery//road block creators. I dunno if it's a broken tactic, though, since they are pretty glass-jawed & have no way of seeing invisible creatures. [or anything else that blocks LOS] I still think Reginald Molehusband's idea of psion followers equipped with dorjes of Ego Whip is better. :) Well, maybe not better vs. wraiths. :( And low-level casters can't (consistently) do much vs. opponents with fancy defenses (like invisibility, SR, etc.).
CrazyArtificer 01-09-08, 09:12 AM	Jeppz! That's one of the possibilities I'm considering with marius. I'd prolly go with Grey Elf wizards with 20 ints each, evoc. specialization. With 3 magic missiles per combat and 1 casting of mount, they would be nice artillery//road block creators. I dunno if it's a broken tactic, though, since they are pretty glass-jawed & have no way of seeing invisible creatures. [or anything else that blocks LOS] Int 20 is a lot for a 25 point buy character. A lvl 1 sorcerer has the same amount of spells even with cha 12. And to cast mount and magic missile you don't really need DCs. You could have a wand of see invisibility or similar spells to give them for casting those spell, if needed. Surely a commoner/warrior horde would also be fun to watch.
McJarvis 01-09-08, 09:15 AM	Admittedly, I like the flavor of wizards over sorcs. I suppose I could make the sacrifice and go for optimization over flavor, though. @Hogarth: I was looking for abuses that would require 0 investment on my part as a gladiator. I suppose a few dorjes of egowhip wouldn't be bad to round marius out _anyway_....
CrazyArtificer 01-09-08, 09:34 AM	Question: a) Suppose that Uranedal wants to buy some wood to sculpt a statue. He buys 20 gp of wood. b) Suppose that Uranedal uses that wood to craft a DC 25 statue. c) Uranedal wants to sell the statue. What's the statue price?
hogarth 01-09-08, 09:46 AM	Admittedly, I like the flavor of wizards over sorcs. I suppose I could make the sacrifice and go for optimization over flavor, though. @Hogarth: I was looking for abuses that would require 0 investment on my part as a gladiator. I suppose a few dorjes of egowhip wouldn't be bad to round marius out _anyway_.... For Reginald Molehusband, he'd be crafting dorjes anyway in order to sell them at a profit (with the Sell Item free activity). So no additional investment is required. :) Note that spellcasting followers still have to follow the 1/3 rule + 3FC, so a level 1 spellcaster can cast 2 1st level spells per battle at the absolute maximum.
templer10 01-09-08, 09:46 AM	Question: a) Suppose that Uranedal wants to buy some wood to sculpt a statue. He buys 20 gp of wood. b) Suppose that Uranedal uses that wood to craft a DC 25 statue. c) Uranedal wants to sell the statue. What's the statue price? No idia- on the other hand - this isnt really a game based on economics so i wouldnt bother.
McJarvis 01-09-08, 09:49 AM	Note that spellcasting followers still have to follow the 1/3 rule + 3FC, so a level 1 spellcaster can cast 2 1st level spells per battle at the absolute maximum. The plan would be to use mounts for my first two fights, then bring in the followers for my third fight. I'm not sure if an "absolute" 1/3 cap is in place right now- but I've always thought there should be one for allies.
McJarvis 01-09-08, 09:51 AM	Question: a) Suppose that Uranedal wants to buy some wood to sculpt a statue. He buys 20 gp of wood. b) Suppose that Uranedal uses that wood to craft a DC 25 statue. c) Uranedal wants to sell the statue. What's the statue price? 20gp. There is no "Market value" for the statue listed in the SRD, so it would be the same as the market value for its base components. In general, CoCo assumes there are two types of skill-based crafting: The type that can make useful items for the arena, like weapons, armor, bows, alchemy, etc. The type that can not make useful items for the arena. Only the type that can not make useful items for the arena can be used to make money. [unless you have the skill package that lets you sell something at higher rate than usual], so attempting to make money in this way will just not work. Essentially- we've houseruled re-rewritten the craft rules.
Zevox 01-09-08, 09:52 AM	The plan would be to use mounts for my first two fights, then bring in the followers for my third fight. I'm not sure if an "absolute" 1/3 cap is in place right now- but I've always thought there should be one for allies. It was ruled a while back that allies would have their own cycle (which does not advance when they're not brought into a fight but also auto-resets at the end of your cycle to keep things simple) to prevent such an abuse. Zevox
McJarvis 01-09-08, 09:55 AM	It was ruled a while back that allies would have their own cycle (which does not advance when they're not brought into a fight but also auto-resets at the end of your cycle to keep things simple) to prevent such an abuse. Zevox Is that like- ruled in the rules, or was it hypothized & never formally adopted? I remember the discussion- I don't remember anything coming out of it. [and frankly, it sounds like alot of paperwork as opposed to a blanket 1/3 limit on allies]
Erithmu 01-09-08, 10:02 AM	Is that like- ruled in the rules, or was it hypothized & never formally adopted? I remember the discussion- I don't remember anything coming out of it. [and frankly, it sounds like alot of paperwork as opposed to a blanket 1/3 limit on allies] It is called punishment for trying to break stuff.[/sarcasm]
TelinArtho 01-09-08, 10:03 AM	A question on Mercenaries.. can I create them using UA variant rules? Yes, and they won't even cost credits this way. There's already an example in the proposed that uses some of this: Calliandra "Cali" Talongate Human Abjurer (UA Variant) 8 (ECL8) Could my psicrystal take the "aid another" action for my profession, since it has +7 there as well? No. This is specifically stated in the skills section I believe - allies cannot aid nor can they perform the task themselves.
Zevox 01-09-08, 10:05 AM	Is that like- ruled in the rules, or was it hypothized & never formally adopted? I remember the discussion- I don't remember anything coming out of it. [and frankly, it sounds like alot of paperwork as opposed to a blanket 1/3 limit on allies] I'm pretty darn sure it was officially adopted. Don't see how its a lot of paperwork though - just treat your ally as in the first fight of its cycle for spell/pp/per-day ability purposes whenever the first time you bring it in during your cycle is. Since your ally's cycle auto-resets with yours, theres no real tracking complications unless you bring the ally in during fight 1 then leave it out of fight 2 and bring it again in fight 3 or something odd like that. Zevox
TelinArtho 01-09-08, 10:09 AM	And one simple look in the Council would have put a rest to that question. Yes Allies have their own 3FC that is reset any time the main character is starting a new 3FC.
hogarth 01-09-08, 10:13 AM	Is that like- ruled in the rules, or was it hypothized & never formally adopted? I remember the discussion- I don't remember anything coming out of it. [and frankly, it sounds like alot of paperwork as opposed to a blanket 1/3 limit on allies] See Rules of Gladius-->Battles of Gladius II-->Allies and the 3-Fight Cycle. It is a fair amount of paperwork, but the number of times it has come up (ally switching mid-cycle) so far is very small.
CrazyArtificer 01-09-08, 10:21 AM	Only the type that can not make useful items for the arena can be used to make money. [unless you have the skill package that lets you sell something at higher rate than usual], so attempting to make money in this way will just not work. Essentially- we've houseruled re-rewritten the craft rules. Thanks, that's the answer I expected. And one simple look in the Council would have put a rest to that question. Yes Allies have their own 3FC that is reset any time the main character is starting a new 3FC. Even though expendables are always reset in each fight, right? That would mean, for a 1st level wizard with the scribe scrolls feat, 7 magic missile scrolls to expend in each fight.
CrazyArtificer 01-09-08, 10:22 AM	Yes, and they won't even cost credits this way. There's already an example in the proposed that uses some of this: Calliandra "Cali" Talongate Human Abjurer (UA Variant) 8 (ECL8) Nice. Looks like I'm gonna have some fun experimenting.
TelinArtho 01-09-08, 10:27 AM	Even though expendables are always reset in each fight, right? That would mean, for a 1st level wizard with the scribe scrolls feat, 7 magic missile scrolls to expend in each fight. Not sure what you mean here - expendables are not reset for allies at all and are in fact a part of your expendable cap.
McJarvis 01-09-08, 10:34 AM	Even though expendables are always reset in each fight, right? That would mean, for a 1st level wizard with the scribe scrolls feat, 7 magic missile scrolls to expend in each fight. You should probably know- allies are not allowed to craft/scribe/imprint _anything_. edit- I have a sneaking suspicion that you are talking about mercenaries instead of followers. Cohorts & Followers are equipped by the gladiator- but you are correct about mercenaries. In fact, I'm not even sure they do the 1/3 rule thing themselves. [wouldn't make sense since they don't have a cycle.]
McJarvis 01-09-08, 10:38 AM	And one simple look in the Council would have put a rest to that question. Yes Allies have their own 3FC that is reset any time the main character is starting a new 3FC. Sigh. I was doing so well for so long on the laziness issue. Thanks for calling me out :)
CrazyArtificer 01-09-08, 10:41 AM	Not sure what you mean here - expendables are not reset for allies at all and are in fact a part of your expendable cap. Mercenaries can have their own expendables (10% of their gold). Also, IIRC, when they use an expendable on a fight, on the following fight they can use it again.. or not? even if they can't write scrolls themselves, they could always have 3.
Stormwind 01-09-08, 10:51 AM	Mercenaries can have their own expendables (10% of their gold). Also, IIRC, when they use an expendable on a fight, on the following fight they can use it again.. or not? even if they can't write scrolls themselves, they could always have 3. Yes, unlike any other ally, Mercenaries have their own expendibles and these are reset every fight.
TelinArtho 01-09-08, 10:52 AM	Ah yes - I should have realized you were talking about Mercs. Yes - mercs are different from all other allies. They have their own rules and do not have a 3FC. Oh and McJ - I will strive to always call out anyone on laziness :P
whitebaron 01-09-08, 11:46 AM	@Stormwind: Killing you own Followers falls under the following leadership descriptions, right? Cruelty –2 The Leader... Caused the death of other followers –1 So basically, killing your own followers would give a -3 penalty to leadership score. I don't know how you would implement this in the arena, but, well - exploiting like that will always further the list of house rules. so i'd advise you to not even try it.
McJarvis 01-09-08, 11:53 AM	@Stormwind: Killing you own Followers falls under the following leadership descriptions, right? Cruelty –2 The Leader... Caused the death of other followers –1 So basically, killing your own followers would give a -3 penalty to leadership score. I don't know how you would implement this in the arena, but, well - exploiting like that will always further the list of house rules. so i'd advise you to not even try it. Yeah. No system for that is in place yet
Stormwind 01-09-08, 12:26 PM	@Stormwind: Killing you own Followers falls under the following leadership descriptions, right? Cruelty –2 The Leader... Caused the death of other followers –1 So basically, killing your own followers would give a -3 penalty to leadership score. I don't know how you would implement this in the arena, but, well - exploiting like that will always further the list of house rules. so i'd advise you to not even try it. I agree that the cruelty modifier would be appropriate, however as mentioned before the 'caused the death of other followers' wouldn't apply as the Nimbus would true res them (see previous posts & quotes). I'm probably not going to go that way (I have other plans ;) ) ... however I thought it might provoke some useful discussion to mention it as I'm surely not the only who has thought of it ... and Varjo's definitely not the only character who can create spawn. Thus we will need to consider if additional rules are required to deal with this.
whitebaron 01-09-08, 12:45 PM	I agree that the cruelty modifier would be appropriate, however as mentioned before the 'caused the death of other followers' wouldn't apply as the Nimbus would true res them (see previous posts & quotes). I'm probably not going to go that way (I have other plans ;) ) ... however I thought it might provoke some useful discussion to mention it as I'm surely not the only who has thought of it ... and Varjo's definitely not the only character who can create spawn. Thus we will need to consider if additional rules are required to deal with this. well, not everything is returned to you after a 3FC, either. every resource you PERSONALLY use up, is expended. so if you break a staff of power its gone, if it gets sundered, you get it restored even after the fight, not after the 3fc. i think it should be the same even for cohorts and followers - you can kill them yourself in your fights - but this should be considered like using them up for good.
TelinArtho 01-09-08, 12:48 PM	Notably - I was given the same suggestion for killing my own allies with death knell early on in Kraegin's career... If we need to specify this out - I would suggest using the criteria whitebaron has above.
Stormwind 01-09-08, 12:59 PM	well, not everything is returned to you after a 3FC, either. every resource you PERSONALLY use up, is expended. so if you break a staff of power its gone, if it gets sundered, you get it restored even after the fight, not after the 3fc. i think it should be the same even for cohorts and followers - you can kill them yourself in your fights - but this should be considered like using them up for good. Currently the rules of gladius don't specifically mention followers, however they do mention allies, and cohorts in particular as follows: Leadership Modifiers: Special circumstances may modify your Leadership score (DMG,p106/107). If you have a familiar, a special mount, or an animal companion (all from a class feature), your leadership score drops by 2. If you recruit a cohort of different alignment, your leadership score drops by 1. If you caused the death of your cohort (outside the Nimbus only), your leadership score permanently drops by 1 per deceased cohort. and Death of an Ally If a cohort or ally dies in one of the various Battles of Gladius (or otherwise inside the Nimbus), it is True Ressurected, re-summoned, re-animated, or otherwise made whole again, for free, after the 3-Fight Cycle is complete. There will be no negative side-effects from losing an ally (eg paladin's mount, familiar). Until then, however, the ally is not available and cannot assist you in any way. He's basically... dead. So given the current rules, cohorts are definitely restored by the nimbus, and I would say that followers would be too. Anything else would require a change in the rules.
whitebaron 01-09-08, 01:20 PM	Currently the rules of gladius don't specifically mention followers, however they do mention allies, and cohorts in particular as follows: and So given the current rules, cohorts are definitely restored by the nimbus, and I would say that followers would be too. Anything else would require a change in the rules. yeah, they are restored, after the 3fc. followers, of course, too. but i find it debatable if they would be restored to someone who uses them as expendables - they should be used up then. it's like the ruling with macbreas body fuel psion . - you use up resources, they are gone.
McJarvis 01-09-08, 01:24 PM	yeah, they are restored, after the 3fc. followers, of course, too. but i find it debatable if they would be restored to someone who uses them as expendables - they should be used up then. it's like the ruling with macbreas body fuel psion . - you use up resources, they are gone. Not good enough of a slant. Thrallherds auto-replentish followers regardless of how they die. They also don't get mods for cruelty or anything like that.
templer10 01-09-08, 01:28 PM	Question - When manifesting Schism - Can you use it to activate a dorja?
Zevox 01-09-08, 01:45 PM	Question - When manifesting Schism - Can you use it to activate a dorja? You mean with the second mind it provides? I'd say definitely no. That can only take mental actions, and dorjes need to be aimed/pointed to be used. It can basically manifest your known powers, and thats it. Zevox
whitebaron 01-09-08, 01:48 PM	Not good enough of a slant. Thrallherds auto-replentish followers regardless of how they die. They also don't get mods for cruelty or anything like that. well, thrallherds are another issue than leadership, but it's also harder to get in there. and one prerequisite for thrallherds seems to be an arrogant "i dont care for anybody but me"-type. also, basically, you'd need a shadow or similar thing as thrall, which would lower your other believers that you can take with you. so it's lvl 10 before you could pull this off with even 1 additional shadow. this brings me to a personal question: how did varjo get 3 shadows as allies? seem to have missed this passage in the ally rules. :)
McJarvis 01-09-08, 01:54 PM	this brings me to a personal question: how did varjo get 3 shadows as allies? seem to have missed this passage in the ally rules. :) Probably by using his create spawn ability & miniquesting for them.
Zevox 01-09-08, 01:54 PM	this brings me to a personal question: how did varjo get 3 shadows as allies? seem to have missed this passage in the ally rules. :) Her Create Spawn ability falls under the "Spells, Powers, and Abilities" (specifically, the abilities part) section of the ally rules. Other examples of such would be the Cleric Rebuke/Control undead ability, the Animate Dead spell, the Planar Ally/Binding spells, and so on. Zevox
Stormwind 01-09-08, 01:59 PM	well, thrallherds are another issue than leadership, but it's also harder to get in there. and one prerequisite for thrallherds seems to be an arrogant "i dont care for anybody but me"-type. also, basically, you'd need a shadow or similar thing as thrall, which would lower your other believers that you can take with you. so it's lvl 10 before you could pull this off with even 1 additional shadow. this brings me to a personal question: how did varjo get 3 shadows as allies? seem to have missed this passage in the ally rules. :) Varjo's allies are Racial allies created with the create spawn ability. Spells, Powers, and Abilities: Certain spells and powers (Planar Ally, Animate Dead, Dominate, Animate Object, etc.), items (Figurine of Wondrous Power, Golem Manual, etc.), abilities (rebuke undead, etc.), or even feats (Craft Construct) allow a character to summon, create allies, or control allies. Any such ally that is brought into a fight in advance (i.e. prebuffed) costs a share of your XP and gold, in addition to the regular xp and/or gold price for acquiring them in the first place, if any. Such allies must also meet all other ally requirements (Minimal ECL, maximum CR, etc.). Allies that are created after a fight begins (e.g. Summon Monster, or activating a Figurine of Wondrous Power), and ones without a CR or ECL, do not result in a penalty. In case of the Animate Dead spell you need to acquire a corpse first (which is normally be tied to a Quest or Miniquest unless you can get the body in another way, eg. buy a horse and kill it). All these allies use the abilities presented in their entry, modified by whatever the spell does (eg. +2 dex for skeletons). The Create Spawn ability of some undead creates minions who will use the unmodified MM entry and its CR to determine the CA. and Certain spells and powers (Planar Ally, Animate Dead, Dominate, Animate Object, etc.), abilities (rebuke undead, create spawn, etc.) allow a character to summon, create, or control allies. The potential combinations of these kinds of allies are so numerous that it is difficult to list them all at this time. In such cases the Minimal ECL Requirement = CR+4.
McJarvis 01-09-08, 02:04 PM	Flying and animals. Thorell has a Camel animal companion, but he wants to make it fly later on. Around ECL7 he'll be getting another bonus trick as a feature on the animal companion. Now, air walk says.. You can train a mount to move with the aid of air walk (counts as a trick; see Handle Animal skill) with one week of work and a DC 25 Handle Animal check. Can I train the camel to fly "in general", so that I can cast the Fly spell on him and he knows how to respond to my commands as a rider?
hogarth 01-09-08, 02:12 PM	You mean with the second mind it provides? I'd say definitely no. That can only take mental actions, and dorjes need to be aimed/pointed to be used. It can basically manifest your known powers, and thats it. Zevox Personally, I think that if the "main" mind (and body) is aiming and activating a dorje, the "second" mind can activate the same dorje as well (since the pointing part has already been done). Note that most power stones are still fair game, though (since most don't require any kind of physical aiming). RE: flying camel. I'd allow a single "3-D Movement" trick to suffice for Air Walk, Fly, Overland Flight, etc.
TelinArtho 01-09-08, 02:13 PM	I'd say not likely. Air walk likens the experience specifically to walking - so the motions and such are similar enough that an animal could make the transition. Fly is more of a mental action - so the motions needed to move (ie - none - just mental activity) would be "too foreign" for an animal.
McJarvis 01-09-08, 02:14 PM	RE: flying camel. I'd allow a single "3-D Movement" trick to suffice for Air Walk, Fly, Overland Flight, etc. Would that apply to spider climb as well then? RE: Telin: :(. I have lots of other alternatives, of course, but I liked the idea of thorell not having to give up his camel. His build only allows for up to Wiz6 and then he changes to eldritch knight- so his animal companion will never progress to the "dire bat" stage.
whitebaron 01-09-08, 02:17 PM	so, if i read this correctly, a shadow is not limited in the use of its allies as clerics or druids with handle animals are, but can gain unlimited access to shadows? so he could bring 2 each fight and let them die, and replenish with other unused shadows?
TelinArtho 01-09-08, 02:24 PM	Would that apply to spider climb as well then? RE: Telin: :(. I have lots of other alternatives, of course, but I liked the idea of thorell not having to give up his camel. His build only allows for up to Wiz6 and then he changes to eldritch knight- so his animal companion will never progress to the "dire bat" stage. I'd be more inclined to allow a trick for each specific mode. So you could have a specific "Air Walk" trick, a "Spider Climb" trick, etc. I would still be unsure about Fly (specifically) - because the spell implies more of a mental action and as we all know - Int 2 is not a great source there...
McJarvis 01-09-08, 02:26 PM	I'd be more inclined to allow a trick for each specific mode. So you could have a specific "Air Walk" trick, a "Spider Climb" trick, etc. I would still be unsure about Fly (specifically) - because the spell implies more of a mental action and as we all know - Int 2 is not a great source there... What if we changed the context a little? Like Winged Horseshoes or something like that? [that is based off the fly spell, but doesn't make it obvious that it is a mental action] edit- Forgot winged boots was a command word item. I guess it was a bad example...but for the sake of the example, assume these horseshoes would be use-activated. double edit- I don't think there's much context to change here, after all. I guess either its possible or it isn't- and between animate dead(nightmare), phantom steed, gold allies, and spider climb- thorell has plenty of options for mounted flight. I'm not gonna try and wiggle this in :) Technically I could even buy a light warhorse, slap an int+2 headband on it, and cast fly on it. I don't think that works on animal companions, though....
TelinArtho 01-09-08, 02:33 PM	The closest item that exists currently are the horseshoes of the zephyr - and again they liken the movement to regular movement...
McJarvis 01-09-08, 02:44 PM	The closest item that exists currently are the horseshoes of the zephyr - and again they liken the movement to regular movement... I was speaking of a hypothetical item. The closest example would be the Wings of Flying, but they are use-activated and thus an animal couldn't use them.
Stormwind 01-09-08, 02:53 PM	so, if i read this correctly, a shadow is not limited in the use of its allies as clerics or druids with handle animals are, but can gain unlimited access to shadows? so he could bring 2 each fight and let them die, and replenish with other unused shadows? Actually shadows are limited to how many allies they can bring to a fight, just as every other type of ally is limited. In particular you must be ECL7 to bring any CR3 creature (such as a shadow). Furthermore, the coefficient of allies limits the number of shadows you can bring to a fight. If you consider the cleric's ability to control undead or characters with handle animal, the number of actual allies on ones sheet is largely irrelevant. It is only the number of allies that you can bring to a fight that matters and in that regard shadow spawn (or any other spawn) are under exactly the same restrictions as any other ally.
hogarth 01-09-08, 02:59 PM	If you consider the cleric's ability to control undead or characters with handle animal, the number of actual allies on ones sheet is largely irrelevant. It is only the number of allies that you can bring to a fight that matters and in that regard shadow spawn (or any other spawn) are under exactly the same restrictions as any other ally. Those are both bad examples; the cleric has a de facto limit on the number of undead she can control (either by rebuke/command or by Animate Dead) and we now have a limit on the number of Handle Animal allies you list on your character sheet (although we didn't in the past). A better example would be purchased allies. If you want to buy 1,000 donkeys, nothing is stopping you from keeping them at home.
whitebaron 01-09-08, 03:01 PM	Actually shadows are limited to how many allies they can bring to a fight, just as every other type of ally is limited. In particular you must be ECL7 to bring any CR3 creature (such as a shadow). Furthermore, the coefficient of allies limits the number of shadows you can bring to a fight. If you consider the cleric's ability to control undead or characters with handle animal, the number of actual allies on ones sheet is largely irrelevant. It is only the number of allies that you can bring to a fight that matters and in that regard shadow spawn (or any other spawn) are under exactly the same restrictions as any other ally. well, but a druid has to watch his handle animal ally, as he can never get enough animals to power his full 3fc with the current CHA-rules of handle animal. with leadership, you have to watch your cohort, as you can only get one cohort. even a thrallherd would want to live his thrall for more than one fight. Also a cleric has some kind of maximum restriction. If you take elemental domains, you can broaden these restrictions - but that's about it. so tactic-wise, you are lesser restricted than others - as you could simply get more spawns, and let them die in each combat. no need to care for those. @donkeys+horses+other bought animals: they have definitely much less impact than shadow or similar spawns. bad example, too. :)
McJarvis 01-09-08, 03:11 PM	so tactic-wise, you are lesser restricted than others - as you could simply get more spawns, and let them die in each combat. no need to care for those. One could say that this is a consideration taken into account in the shadow's LA. (Similar, say, to a thrallherd's believers eventually- a level 10 telepath5/thrallherd5 would have 15 lvl 1's and a level 2, which implies he might not care if a whole set of them dies.)
hogarth 01-09-08, 03:12 PM	@donkeys+horses+other bought animals: they have definitely much less impact than shadow or similar spawns. bad example, too. :) It depends on the battlefield, I guess. On the plains, I think I'd generally rather have a purchased hippogriff on my side than a spawned shadow. But my point is that previously Diplomacy allies were the only ones with a limit on the number you could own under CoCo house rules, and everything else was unlimited. Then we banned Diplomacy allies. Then we put a limit on the number of Handle Animal allies you could own under CoCo house rules (and everything else is unlimited). So perhaps we're working towards the case where every type of ally will either be banned or limited, just v-e-e-e-e-ry slowly. Things like undead spawn just haven't come up for nerfing/banning yet because they're so rarely used.
Salrantol 01-09-08, 03:14 PM	I am working on a new character concept and was wondering what others thought was a better entrance from egoist into Slayer: Egoist 8: Fastest manifesting advancement, worst BAB Ranger 1/Egoist 7: 2nd-best manifesting, worst BAB, Track as bonus feat Ranger 1/Egoist 6: 3rd-best manifesting, but delays 4th-level powers until level 9, Track as bonus feat Ranger 1/Egoist 4/Warmind 1: Best BAB, slowest manifesting, but access to PsyWar powers, Track as bonus feat Ranger 2/Egoist 4: Best BAB, slowest manifesting, Track as bonus feat, combat styleThe concept is a touch-attack (melee or ranged) wielder with psionics, so that's why the BAB matters.
McJarvis 01-09-08, 03:17 PM	So perhaps we're working towards the case where every type of ally will either be banned or limited, just v-e-e-e-e-ry slowly. Isn't the creeping mold theory considered philosophically flawed?
whitebaron 01-09-08, 03:27 PM	One could say that this is a consideration taken into account in the shadow's LA. (Similar, say, to a thrallherd's believers eventually- a level 10 telepath5/thrallherd5 would have 15 lvl 1's and a level 2, which implies he might not care if a whole set of them dies.) he'd likely have 30/3/1/1 or more followers. cha14 on a thrallherd should be easy. :) I still believe followers and believers are handled wrong in the coco - they should be of no use in a combat. as it stands, you could easily use them for profit. (just make them all sorcerers - lots of magic missiles still kill, if slowly) It depends on the battlefield, I guess. On the plains, I think I'd generally rather have a purchased hippogriff on my side than a spawned shadow. well, this is not about different superior or inferior options for maps, its about general supply. its like allowing a 1/week item to function once each fight or once each 3FC. on the other hand, if cohorts and allies WOULD be ressurected each fight, this whole point would be useless. very often, characters that focus on allies also have to sacrifice something for it. usually just a feat, maybe combined with higher charisma than they'd normally have, up to a special build. so, if you lose your cohort in the first fight, you're pretty weakened. Take Gaknalak and Blurgta as example - without her, he would still be strong - but his options almost halved.
Hirumajoe 01-09-08, 03:40 PM	I am working on a new character concept and was wondering what others thought was a better entrance from egoist into Slayer: Egoist 8: Fastest manifesting advancement, worst BAB Ranger 1/Egoist 7: 2nd-best manifesting, worst BAB, Track as bonus feat Ranger 1/Egoist 6: 3rd-best manifesting, but delays 4th-level powers until level 9, Track as bonus feat Ranger 1/Egoist 4/Warmind 1: Best BAB, slowest manifesting, but access to PsyWar powers, Track as bonus feat Ranger 2/Egoist 4: Best BAB, slowest manifesting, Track as bonus feat, combat styleThe concept is a touch-attack (melee or ranged) wielder with psionics, so that's why the BAB matters. Well, there's a couple examples you can look at for Slayers... Valen Sky went Ranger 2/Egoist 4 for the saves, base attack, and ranged abilities at low level. He basically started out an archer and slowly added psionic boosts, eventually switching over to a weird hybrid of stealth, melee, ranged and psionics. Oh, and the attack packages don't hurt. However, he doesn't actually do the touch attack thing, mostly because of the feat requirements on Shadow Dancer. Probably a flaw in the design... Loddick Saffrion is a retired Ranger 1/Egoist 6/Slayer 4. He used a ring of invisibility and tended to be a ranged striker/manifester. Although I've always been confused why he didn't take metamorphosis... :) Kracknol is kinda showing the power of all those bonus feats to actually get the touch attack abilities, plus all the associated feats which make them work better. He uses Psiwarrior, but the feats do help alot if thats what you want to focus on. Keep in mind your feat progression. If you want to do the deep impact path (for example), you can do that at earliest at 9th level with the above builds. For a non-human, that means your feats are as follows: 1st Power attack Psion 1st Psionic Weapon, 3rd Track, 5th Psionic Mediation 6th Free, 9th Deep Impact. One real feat free for variation. Throwing in a level of Ranger eases that feat progression by one. Possibly allowing for Psicrystal Affinitiy and Psicrystal containment. Throwing in two ranger levels effectively trades a psionic feat for rapid fire, which is fine if you want to go a ranged route. I wouldn't go with the Warmind, simply because your manifester level would be 1 with it, and there's not a whole lot of PsyWar powers that you'd want at that manifester level.
hogarth 01-09-08, 03:57 PM	he'd likely have 30/3/1/1 or more followers. cha14 on a thrallherd should be easy. :) I still believe followers and believers are handled wrong in the coco - they should be of no use in a combat. as it stands, you could easily use them for profit. (just make them all sorcerers - lots of magic missiles still kill, if slowly) Personally, I'd like to see Leadership either banned, or have characters with Leadership cohorts fight in a higher league. But followers don't particularly bother me. Seven level 1 sorcerers are nothing compared to one level 7 psion! But my suggestion is that if you really think bringing a mess o' followers/believers into the arena is very powerful, try it and see. That's what I've done with a number of my characters. Sometimes what I think is an overpowered option turns out to be disappointing once I try it out (e.g. bringing followers into the arena) and sometimes it works even better than I had hoped...at least until it gets banned (e.g. buying light warhorses with the Improved Grapple feat). That's the fun part -- seeing which is which! :)
Stormwind 01-09-08, 04:06 PM	he'd likely have 30/3/1/1 or more followers. cha14 on a thrallherd should be easy. :) I still believe followers and believers are handled wrong in the coco - they should be of no use in a combat. as it stands, you could easily use them for profit. (just make them all sorcerers - lots of magic missiles still kill, if slowly) well, this is not about different superior or inferior options for maps, its about general supply. its like allowing a 1/week item to function once each fight or once each 3FC. on the other hand, if cohorts and allies WOULD be ressurected each fight, this whole point would be useless. very often, characters that focus on allies also have to sacrifice something for it. usually just a feat, maybe combined with higher charisma than they'd normally have, up to a special build. so, if you lose your cohort in the first fight, you're pretty weakened. Take Gaknalak and Blurgta as example - without her, he would still be strong - but his options almost halved. Shadows (and other undead with create spawn) have the CR and +LA that they do because of all their abilities, including the create spawn ability. If they didn't have the ability then they would have a lower CR and/or +LA. Thus I would say that they are 'characters that focus on allies' and that they have already sacrificed something for the create spawn ability. As far as comparison's go, consider a cleric with a certain amount of HD of allies that it can control. I doubt that any cleric can use up all of those allies in one 3FC. For example consider Enoch (Salrantol, I hope you don't mind me using Enoch as an example here). Enoch can have a total of 48HD of allies and his maximum Coefficient of Allies is 6, thus if he maxed out the number of allies he had, he could easily field a total of CR18 worth of creatures which would be sufficient for taking maximum allies to each fight. Thus, a character focused on allies can do just as well as a character with the create spawn ability in that they are both limited by the maximum Coefficient of Allies for each fight. @whitebaron: your earlier examples of a cohort or a single class ally are a different situation as they are 'unique' allies in that you cannot have more than a single one of them.
Stormwind 01-09-08, 04:14 PM	@Hirumajoe: Did you manage to get a questlord for Valen yet?
TelinArtho 01-09-08, 04:40 PM	@McJ - are you going to create the week's FotW thread? Usually a good idea to have it up before pairings are done and I know you wanted to have the "picks" in the first post. If not - I'll create it shortly.
McJarvis 01-09-08, 04:42 PM	@McJ - are you going to create the week's FotW thread? Usually a good idea to have it up before pairings are done and I know you wanted to have the "picks" in the first post. If not - I'll create it shortly. Will do that soon. I've been in meetings all day- I knew I would be, I should have created it this morning. edit- And done. When I say "I was in meetings all day" I mean I was coming back to check the forums during my 5 min breaks. :) Just slipped my mind that it was after 3pm on wednesday.
Hirumajoe 01-09-08, 05:01 PM	@Hirumajoe: Did you manage to get a questlord for Valen yet? I realized I don't have all that much time this week between work, home, and figuring out what EvilTM plots I'm hatching on my table top players (including MWB and Erithmu). So I'm putting off the quest for now (and also Pitlording and running characters) till I find some more time. In a week or two I may be back to looking. Thanks for asking though.
Stormwind 01-09-08, 05:05 PM	I realized I don't have all that much time this week between work, home, and figuring out what EvilTM plots I'm hatching on my table top players (including MWB and Erithmu). So I'm putting off the quest for now (and also Pitlording and running characters) till I find some more time. In a week or two I may be back to looking. Thanks for asking though. No problem :D Let me know if/when you need a questlord, preferably at least 1-2 days before pairings so I have time to plan :devil:
Nabuchadnezzar 01-09-08, 06:37 PM	LEVEL 3 FIGHTS * Doria Swift (Kaigan) vs. Korwald Barandar (lonewolf) : CrazyArtificer [Arena] * Ryalyth Lorn'elth (Kaigan) vs. Sunstroke Reborn (MindWandererB) : McJarvis [Arena] * Thorell Runesmith (McJarvis) vs. Varuxor (CrazyArtificer) : whitebaron [Arena] * Morro Earthshaker (dulsi) vs. Lelenia Rovan (whitebaron) : CrazyArtificer [Arena] * Eland (CrazyArtificer) vs. Undurion (Durzulgor) : TelinArtho [Arena] Why aren't Calidor Tyrbelel and Thunderimm "Psibane" o'Gunarr paired?
MindWandererB 01-09-08, 06:39 PM	Why aren't Calidor Tyrbelel and Thunderimm "Psibane" o'Gunarr paired? Because I hadn't done the pairings yet. That's last week.
Nabuchadnezzar 01-09-08, 06:45 PM	Because I hadn't done the pairings yet. That's last week. Ah ok! I thought that title refers to pairings... LEVEL 3 FIGHTS * Undurion (Durzulgor) vs. Calidor Tyrbelel (Nabuchadnezzar) : CrazyArtificer [Arena] * Varuxor (CrazyArtificer) vs. Ivellios Marrow (Sjiggie) : Durzulgor [Arena] * Lelenia Rovan (whitebaron) vs. Thunderim o'Gunarr (Nabuchadnezzar) : Thaylen [Arena] * Eland (CrazyArtificer) vs. Jog Stonebreaker (Thaylen) : dulsi [Arena] * Gimrel Sithraldor (CrazyArtificer) vs. Ryalyth Lorn'elth (Kaigan): whitebaron [Arena] That's it :D I hope not to lose both my first fights :D Thanks, let's see who are these guys ;)
whitebaron 01-09-08, 06:50 PM	Hey you! If you want to talk about the fights or see what they are up to, why don't you try the other room? This one here is for gossipping! After uttering these words, Lelenia realizes she should be in the arena as well, and heads towards the door leaving to "The fights of the week"
whitebaron 01-09-08, 07:36 PM	according to this article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4news/20080108a), we now know the release date for the new srd. - 6th of June. Gives a little idea of the schedule we should try to set for coco4e.
Zevox 01-09-08, 07:58 PM	according to this article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4news/20080108a), we now know the release date for the new srd. - 6th of June. Gives a little idea of the schedule we should try to set for coco4e. "CoCo 4e"? So we're definitely going to switch over to 4th edition at some point now? Zevox
hogarth 01-09-08, 08:15 PM	"CoCo 4e"? So we're definitely going to switch over to 4th edition at some point now? I think MWB suggested it was inevitable. It's hard to say anything until we actually see what it's like.
whitebaron 01-10-08, 08:50 AM	"CoCo 4e"? So we're definitely going to switch over to 4th edition at some point now? Zevox mwb put it like this: as 4e nears, we have to take an interest in the new system, and get ready for it early on, so we can attract people to play in 4e-leagues. the 3.5 leagues will be kept until there is no further interest. another problem with parallel leagues just came to mind: pitlords. with players playing in both, but some pitlords maybe wanting to stay in 3.5 only, we certainly will be close to SoE every week. so maybe it would be good to limit 4e participation to 1 char/week until it is settled down, then.
TelinArtho 01-10-08, 09:09 AM	I wouldn't worry too much about the transition wb. Frankly, people like myself, who will want to see the CoCo continue to exist will work very hard to keep it going. If that means extending myself by running a lot of the 4e fights - I can handle that. It will certainly be a tougher time - but I think there's going to be enough of a spark of interest that will get people involved.
MindWandererB 01-10-08, 05:32 PM	I'm not too worried--I don't think people who play 2 characters a week will start playing 2 3e ones and 2 4e ones, but will just stick to 2 total. Yes, there will probably be a rush right when 4e comes out (and I plan to advertise the CoCo as soon as we open the 4e arena), and I'll ask that veterans activate fewer characters than they normally would to make up for it. Just out of curiosity: how many of you are planning to get the 4e books at launch? I ask because I don't know when the SRD will be coming out (probably near but not at launch day), plus if it's anything like the 3e SRD, not all the rules will be in it. Obviously, only those who know the rules will be able to pitlord, or able to help with the CoCo 4e rules.
Sjiggie 01-10-08, 05:42 PM	I'm still not sure if I get the new books at launch but the new SRD is planned for the 6th of June.
CrazyArtificer 01-10-08, 05:51 PM	Just out of curiosity: how many of you are planning to get the 4e books at launch? Well, me and the friends of mine just started an Eberron 3.5 campaign, so I guess I won't buy those books until the end of that campaign. I'll have a look at the SRD, nevertheless.
lonewolf 01-10-08, 06:32 PM	Just out of curiosity: how many of you are planning to get the 4e books at launch? I ask because I don't know when the SRD will be coming out (probably near but not at launch day), plus if it's anything like the 3e SRD, not all the rules will be in it. Obviously, only those who know the rules will be able to pitlord, or able to help with the CoCo 4e rules. according to this article, we now know the release date for the new srd. - 6th of June. Gives a little idea of the schedule we should try to set for coco4e. :rolleyes: I plan to buy all the core books immediately upon release in Austria, which may or may not be later than the release in the US.
MindWandererB 01-10-08, 07:56 PM	Oh, whoops. I misread that. Okay. We can start to plan the rules based on what we know; I'll be at D&D Experience, which will be the first public "release" of 4e in what they hope will be the final form. Obviously I won't have a chance to see everything (only 1st-level characters will be used), but we'll have an idea. And good news for us: stuff from subsequent accessories--sorry, "core rulebooks" :rolleyes:--will be OGL as well. That should get us alive and kicking like never before.
TelinArtho 01-10-08, 08:26 PM	For Christmas - I actually got gift cards in anticipation of 4e - so I should be picking them up when they are out - but I'm notoriously lazy - so probably won't be for a few weeks after.
McJarvis 01-10-08, 09:50 PM	Just out of curiosity: how many of you are planning to get the 4e books at launch? I ask because I don't know when the SRD will be coming out (probably near but not at launch day), plus if it's anything like the 3e SRD, not all the rules will be in it. Obviously, only those who know the rules will be able to pitlord, or able to help with the CoCo 4e rules. I use an Amazon credit card & have $100 worth of rewards tickets just lying around. I don't have anything else to spend them on.
CrazyArtificer 01-11-08, 06:36 AM	I have a weird problem with the Battles of Gladius thread. Everytime I'm logged in I can't read, open or post inside it. If I browse the forums as a guest I can open and read it. I tried three browsers: IE, Firefox, Opera. Same result. Is anyone else experiencing something similar? Any idea on what could be causing it? I would like to avoid posting fights in a separate thread..
Nabuchadnezzar 01-11-08, 06:55 AM	I have a weird problem with the Battles of Gladius thread. Everytime I'm logged in I can't read, open or post inside it. If I browse the forums as a guest I can open and read it. I tried three browsers: IE, Firefox, Opera. Same result. Is anyone else experiencing something similar? Any idea on what could be causing it? I would like to avoid posting fights in a separate thread.. Nothing similar happens to me, I use Firefox. Maybe it's something related to your special powers because you are also a pitlord, I don't know that. Try to delete cookies and temporary internet files... If it dowsn't work and you are a windows user ( :rolleyes: ), uninstall and reinstall Firefox (never use other browsers than Firefox :D )
CrazyArtificer 01-11-08, 07:07 AM	Nothing similar happens to me, I use Firefox. Maybe it's something related to your special powers because you are also a pitlord, I don't know that. Try to delete cookies and temporary internet files... If it dowsn't work and you are a windows user ( :rolleyes: ), uninstall and reinstall Firefox (never use other browsers than Firefox :D ) I already tried to delete temporary internet files and cookies (on all three, just to be sure). Pitlords have no special powers (even though I'd like to be able to become invisible as an immediate action, sometimes :D ) I guess a reinstall of Firefox wouldn't solve much, as the problem seems more related to the forum account (as all three browsers fail to load the thread when I'm logged in.) I don't have changed anything in the forum account beside adding more posts view for each thread, maybe I need to change it back to 10. edit: tried that, I can open and read now. Still can't write (at least in advanced mode) edit2: more crazyness.. I have to post as QR, then edit in advanced mode to access the full advanced mode. Well, at least now I have a way to post.
whitebaron 01-11-08, 07:23 AM	well, gleemax is not the fastest board around there :( and so it has problems with big threads (many posts or large posts) reducing the number of shown posts per page has thus far always worked for me. still, i'm experiencing many problems with this forum, which is kinda strange given the fast internet connections used nowadays.
templer10 01-11-08, 07:25 AM	Silly Question - The power Telekinetic maneuver - I assume it works Like nomal TK in that that if the manuver you attempted failed - YOu get to try again next round Correct? Also - can you change a target after you chose one - say do a trip in 1 round vs target A and a bull rush vs target B in second round?
hogarth 01-11-08, 07:36 AM	I don't have changed anything in the forum account beside adding more posts view for each thread, maybe I need to change it back to 10. edit: tried that, I can open and read now. Still can't write (at least in advanced mode) edit2: more crazyness.. I have to post as QR, then edit in advanced mode to access the full advanced mode. Well, at least now I have a way to post. I also need to have my posts per page set to less than 30 in order to see the thread. Sometimes I have posting problems like you describe (e.g. when I reply to a post, it doesn't quote the original), but it's only intermittent.
CrazyArtificer 01-11-08, 07:38 AM	More silly questions. Obscuring mist grants concealment depending on the amount of squares covered by vapor between you and your enemy or depending on the distance of the enemy? The wording of the spell seems to favor option 2, but I always played as 1 in my tt games. @whitebaron, hogarth. Thanks, at least I know it's not a problem on my side.
Nabuchadnezzar 01-11-08, 07:57 AM	More silly questions. Obscuring mist grants concealment depending on the amount of squares covered by vapor between you and your enemy or depending on the distance of the enemy? The wording of the spell seems to favor option 2, but I always played as 1 in my tt games. @whitebaron, hogarth. Thanks, at least I know it's not a problem on my side. A misty vapor arises around you. It is stationary once created. The vapor obscures all sight, including darkvision, beyond 5 feet. A creature 5 feet away has concealment (attacks have a 20% miss chance). Creatures farther away have total concealment (50% miss chance, and the attacker cannot use sight to locate the target). Spell entry states that it's the vapor that obscures sight, so it should be #1 as you (and I) always played. It does actually make more sense... that's how I see it, else I would have submitted different tactics or even different equipment on the sheet. EDIT: for example, if mist squares are [X] and plain squares are X... U = Undurion C = Calidor _ = blank U[_][C] that's 50% because U is more than 5 ft away from me in the mist. U[C] that's 20% because U is 5 ft away from me in the mist. [U][C] that's still 20% because U is still 5 ft away from me in the mist. U_ _ _ [C] that's 20% because U is 5 ft away from me in the mist and 15 ft away from me in plain area. I can be wrong of course
CrazyArtificer 01-11-08, 08:08 AM	Spell entry states that it's the vapor that obscures sight, so it should be #1 as you (and I) always played. It does actually make more sense... that's how I see it, else I would have submitted different tactics or even different equipment on the sheet. Actually option #2 would be even better for you, as with just 1 square covered by the vapor you would still have total concealment if the enemy is farther than 5 ft :)
Nabuchadnezzar 01-11-08, 08:37 AM	Actually option #2 would be even better for you, as with just 1 square covered by the vapor you would still have total concealment if the enemy is farther than 5 ft :) Note the example in my previous post... U _ _ _ _ _ [C] = 20% U _ _ _ _ [_] [C] = 50% U [C] = 20% U [_] [C] = 50% [U] [C] = 20% [U] [_] [C] = 50% That's how I see it, maybe I explained bad
whitebaron 01-11-08, 08:58 AM	how about U [_] C ? :D
vitellio 01-11-08, 09:00 AM	I think Nabuchadnezzar is right in his post...
Nabuchadnezzar 01-11-08, 09:06 AM	how about U [_] C ? :D That is unlikely to happen, since mist is a circle of 20 ft radius :D
templer10 01-11-08, 09:07 AM	Silly Question - The power Telekinetic maneuver - I assume it works Like nomal TK in that that if the manuver you attempted failed - YOu get to try again next round Correct? Also - can you change a target after you chose one - say do a trip in 1 round vs target A and a bull rush vs target B in second round? Bump?
Sjiggie 01-11-08, 09:21 AM	Silly Question - The power Telekinetic maneuver - I assume it works Like nomal TK in that that if the manuver you attempted failed - YOu get to try again next round Correct? Also - can you change a target after you chose one - say do a trip in 1 round vs target A and a bull rush vs target B in second round? I believe that you can attempt a maneuver again but you can't target more than one creature with one manifestation. The target line says one creature.
hogarth 01-11-08, 09:23 AM	Silly Question - The power Telekinetic maneuver - I assume it works Like nomal TK in that that if the manuver you attempted failed - YOu get to try again next round Correct? Also - can you change a target after you chose one - say do a trip in 1 round vs target A and a bull rush vs target B in second round? Yes, once per round you can attempt whatever maneuver you like, regardless of the success of previous maneuvers. No, I don't think you can switch targets.
CrazyArtificer 01-11-08, 11:25 AM	Note the example in my previous post... U _ _ _ _ _ [C] = 20% U _ _ _ _ [_] [C] = 50% U [C] = 20% U [_] [C] = 50% [U] [C] = 20% [U] [_] [C] = 50% That's how I see it, maybe I explained bad That's how I always played it, good to know I was right :)
Nabuchadnezzar 01-11-08, 11:43 AM	That's how I always played it, good to know I was right :) and in 1st and 3rd situation, "U" wouldn't be considered "hiding", would he?
CrazyArtificer 01-11-08, 01:08 PM	No, he wouldn't ;) Edit: check the Courtroom thread for a nice summary on Hiding in the CoCo. The hide skill had some house-rules to define it better, including the auto-spot one. Better to read those passages carefully if you want to play a stealthy character.
Nabuchadnezzar 01-11-08, 01:22 PM	All Hail Sarlona's Mighty Rage!! Unleash the FURY OF SARLONA!!! (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14801545&postcount=1633) :D
whitebaron 01-11-08, 03:46 PM	question about telekinesis/telekinetic thrust and being mounted: can you actually target only the rider? so throw the rider up in the air without affecting the mount?
Zevox 01-11-08, 05:37 PM	question about telekinesis/telekinetic thrust and being mounted: can you actually target only the rider? so throw the rider up in the air without affecting the mount? Can't see why you couldn't.
whitebaron 01-11-08, 05:47 PM	Can't see why you couldn't. well maybe then i should just ask templer whether he wants to save resources on liara and resign to darian :)
templer10 01-11-08, 07:02 PM	well maybe then i should just ask templer whether he wants to save resources on liara and resign to darian :) Go ahead - i completly Missed those winged boots, Really didnt plan for a ranged battle. iam really considering Retiring the Char, I made some Big Mistakes With her.
whitebaron 01-11-08, 07:06 PM	Go ahead - i completly Missed those winged boots, Really didnt plan for a ranged battle. iam really considering Retiring the Char, I made some Big Mistakes With her. well, her stats are still decent, 66% is nothing to frown at. i know you are aiming for more, but well - we don't always get what we like :) so, i'll post a resign tomorrow? heading off to bed now.
The Dread Dormammu 01-11-08, 07:38 PM	I think you must have typed the link wrong, since it just leads to the home page for myspace. D'oh here! http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=93056210&blogID=346553745
Zevox 01-11-08, 08:59 PM	D'oh here! http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=93056210&blogID=346553745 Not bad, although being the extreme Tolkien-geek that I am I did notice a few things that aren't quite consistent with the actual novels. (Mostly the "no taking physical form" thing - that was from the movies only, in the actual books he could and had regained enough power to take physical form, since Golum had seen him when he was tortured in Mordor.) "Secret joke" is probably the "the hills are screaming" one, a reference to when Shelob's mother Ungoliant turned on Morgoth for withholding the Simarils and his screams were said to echo in those mountains whenever someone cried out in them forever after. Zevox
The Dread Dormammu 01-11-08, 09:25 PM	(Mostly the "no taking physical form" thing - that was from the movies only, in the actual books he could and had regained enough power to take physical form, since Golum had seen him when he was tortured in Mordor.) I'm not having this argument again... "Secret joke" is probably the "the hills are screaming" one, a reference to when Shelob's mother Ungoliant turned on Morgoth for withholding the Simarils and his screams were said to echo in those mountains whenever someone cried out in them forever after. Hmm not what I was actually thinking of, but you get a cookie for mentioning Ungoliant.:cookie:
templer10 01-11-08, 09:40 PM	well, her stats are still decent, 66% is nothing to frown at. i know you are aiming for more, but well - we don't always get what we like :) so, i'll post a resign tomorrow? heading off to bed now. yea go ahead. the problem is - She is pretty terrible at Ranged combat and it seems everyone and his brother can avoid her in melee. She needs either a rebuild or some new mounts - Possibly a Nightmare skeleton - it still keeps the fly speed fortunently.
MindWandererB 01-11-08, 09:43 PM	That is unlikely to happen, since mist is a circle of 20 ft radius :D Could happen, since the mist can be burned off square-by-square with fire effects. It's a bit tricky. 20% seems to assume 1-2 "partial" areas of mist (the mist between the character's actual position and the edge of the square). 50% seems to assume at least 1 full square and 1 partial square. If I were running it, I'd probably go with 40% (which is an option in the rules, albeit a rare one), but I think 50% is closest to RAW.
Rauul 01-12-08, 11:29 AM	i was looking for the Community Playtest fights... if someone could post me the links or Pm them to me i would appreciate it.. Sorry for my Absence.. Health problems.. and lost of Internet combined with 2 major NE storms have done me in..
Durzulgor 01-12-08, 03:20 PM	Could my psicrystal take the "aid another" action for my profession, since it has +7 there as well? bump?
Stormwind 01-12-08, 03:22 PM	i was looking for the Community Playtest fights... if someone could post me the links or Pm them to me i would appreciate it.. Sorry for my Absence.. Health problems.. and lost of Internet combined with 2 major NE storms have done me in..I don't remember where the first playtest fight is, but the second is here: Monster Takedown: Samuel (lonewolf) vs. Psibeast (Vathelokai) vs. Valen Sky (Hirumajoe) : whitebaron [Cavern] There is also a third playtest fight, but as far as I know Vath hasn't had a chance to start it yet: King of the Hill: Krusk's agent (mucki) vs. Varjo's agent (Stormwind) vs. Maya's agent (MindWandererB) : Vathelokai [Arena]
lonewolf 01-12-08, 03:22 PM	bump? there were at least 2 answers, but I´ll repeat t in short: No. Allies are not allowed to do or help in any free or full activities.
Stormwind 01-12-08, 03:26 PM	Could my psicrystal take the "aid another" action for my profession, since it has +7 there as well?No. The Rules of Gladius quite clearly state that allies cannot use skills outside of combat.Ally Spellcasting and Crafting First of all, allies may not craft any items; neither mundane nor magical ones. Essentially, they can use no skills outside of combat. (Exception: allies with animal companions can use their Handle Animal skill to teach tricks to that companion.) Cohorts with levels in a spellcasting class can aid the character by casting spells on him.
Durzulgor 01-12-08, 03:29 PM	Too bad, but thanks anyway!
CrazyArtificer 01-13-08, 06:22 AM	Can we open a Battle of Gladius (IV)? I keep having troubles viewing that thread. And I'm not the only one, reading answers to my questions a few posts back.. Edit: nevermind.. I switched from forum default to 10 posts per thread and it works again.
whitebaron 01-13-08, 08:35 AM	Is Scribelords still active, or gone like prisonlords? With my birthday nearing, i want to know who to send it to. :) @tdd, telin&ca: are you all ready for questing once snagas fight is up? and, about the CR again: 2* ECL4 = CR6. you'd be 2*ECL4+1*ECL5. sure you only want to gain 2250/2400 XP each for a full 3 weeks quest? @tdd: your current credits is at -3. don't know how many negatives are allowed, but you should try and earn some.
CrazyArtificer 01-13-08, 08:41 AM	@TDD: let's try an EL7, we can make it..do you agree? @wb: can someone edit his character sheet while questing? For example, deciding my memorized spell just after knowing where we will head for and discuss with the others the kind of monster/races which inhabits the place. can I use free activities while questing?
whitebaron 01-13-08, 05:23 PM	@TDD: let's try an EL7, we can make it..do you agree? @wb: can someone edit his character sheet while questing? For example, deciding my memorized spell just after knowing where we will head for and discuss with the others the kind of monster/races which inhabits the place. can I use free activities while questing? afaik: no changing sheets unless you level mid-quest. free activities: no. you are away from your working place, whatever it might be. about where you will go to: I like to give players a choice at the beginning of their adventures, which is before you meet the monsters (different ones depending on choice), but after you finished the character sheets for questing. There' ll likely be an outdoor encounter, one indoor, third either of both. Sometimes i roll monsters, sometimes i don't. As for your concrete wishes: you've given me something to work with (marble, skeletons, scrolls or money) - the most likely thing to find all of these are ancient tombs, temples or maybe abandoned mines. A graveyard would also be an option. I live in GMT+1. I can access the forum from work, but i won't do much in the matter of fights while at work. So i'll likely do the whole quest like the following: Tue-Thu: More RP. Fri-Mon: More Fight. for more information consult my pitlording-profile
lonewolf 01-13-08, 06:07 PM	Two things about quests: - Its completely up to the questlord if he allows changing prepared spells after the quest starts or not. Most of the times it is allowed. - XP and GP rewards are only given out at the end of the quest, so no midquest levelups.
whitebaron 01-13-08, 06:30 PM	oh, so quests are different to campaigns.... well, if you want to be sure, just keep slots open - there will be time for a pause to reprepare. :)
TelinArtho 01-14-08, 10:47 AM	Vallgar is ready for the quest - so whenever it happens - he is good to go. To all in the northeast of the US - hope you are enjoying the snow as much as I am... 7 inches and still going.
CrazyArtificer 01-14-08, 10:59 AM	Thanks for your answer.. I'll see if it's the case to leave a couple of slot open.. GMT +1 here.. No problems with your schedule.
hogarth 01-14-08, 12:07 PM	Redirected from the Fight of the Week thread: The problem I have with Aquin's net is not so much that it's cheesy (there are lots of cheesy things in the Core rules), but I have two philosophical objections. (1) - It's dumb. A bow made out of crystal is dumb. A net made out of crystal is dumb. A handkerchief made out of crystal is dumb. I know one man's dumb is another man's brilliant, but I have to call 'em like I see 'em. It's pretty clear to me that they copied a bunch of boilerplate from somewhere and the "bows, crossbows, and slings" comment slipped through, as well as the "any item could potentially be made out of deep crystal" comment. Note that it also says "a weapon made of deep crystal is no different from a mundane crystal weapon for a nonpsionic character" and "deep crystal is a better grade" than mundane crystal (implying to me that you can't make a weapon out of deep crystal if you can't make it out of mundane crystal). But as long as we're all agreed on the rules, it ultimately doesn't matter whether I think something is dumb or not. (2) - There's no consistent rule on how to calculate hit points and weight of items made out of different materials, so ultimately we're just making stuff up; sometimes the stuff we make up makes sense, sometimes not so much. On the one hand, it seems logical to say "deep crystal is 15 times as durable as rope, so a deep crystal net has 15 times as many hpas a rope net". On the other hand, steel is 3 times as durable as wood , yet a steel shield isn't 3 times as durable as a wood shield. Similarly, it doesn't say how much deep crystal weighs; it looks like Telin is assuming that a deep crystal item weighs the same as the original item. So does that mean that a deep crystal version of a large wooden shield weighs (and costs) less than a deep crystal version of a large steel shield and yet has more hit points? My two cents: I think we should specify that mundane and deep crystal are for steel/iron items only. It would remove both of my objections, at any rate. For the record - every time I've seen a net used it was freely attacked as an unattended object. I don't think the sunder rules would apply here even with the trailing rope held - since the key here is that the net cannot be used to attack with until the opponent is set free. For the curious: A net is made of rope and has 5 hit points - therefore, it is structurally sound enough to be the equivalent of 2.5 inches thick of rope. Deepcrystal gives 30hp per inch - so a deepcrystal rope has 75hp. I asked about this before I posted the new version of Aquin (see Tavern X post 2094+ mid-September) to confirm this:<snip>
McJarvis 01-14-08, 01:03 PM	(implying to me that you can't make a weapon out of deep crystal if you can't make it out of mundane crystal). Right- but Mundane crystal has the same wording of "potentially any item can be made out of mundane crystal"- so that sets us at square one. The difference is Mundane crystal _also_ talks about the crystal being used to replace the metal parts of the weapon it modifies.
TelinArtho 01-14-08, 01:12 PM	1. While I might agree that Deepcrystal shouldn't be applied to non-metal items - the rules are clear on it. While it references mundane crystal - the fact of the matter is that it has a specific statement that it can replace any other material. A ruling that would not allow non-metal items to be made into deepcrystal would certainly be a house rule. 2. On the matter of hp per inch - the conversion is there in the rules. The only times where it doesn't "match" are for items that have both metal and wood equivalents and in those it is easy to extrapolate that the metal item ends up being thinner than the non-metal equivalent. I would be fine with a house rule to remove non-metal deepcrystal items, but it is certainly a house rule that will affect a lot of players.
whitebaron 01-14-08, 01:19 PM	still, mundane crystal also assumes it counts as "metal" so druids cannot wear it. this is a (to me) more than clear assumption that you cannot make bows, or any other non-metal items out of deepcrystal. the ruling should be like adamantine - you can make arrows for example - which should be enough for those bowslingers who charge their bows... seems bit more expensive, but 1 arrow = +20 gp. not a big deal here. as you will never shoot them without charging them... i don't see this affecting too many players btw. on another note: any armor made out of metal, should be really made out of deepcrystal. it costs nothing more, and has lots more of hitpoints. ;)
TelinArtho 01-14-08, 01:22 PM	Deepcrystal doesn't cost more than regular metal armor? Better read that again my friend. As for charging up arrows - it would be a pretty significant expense actually - not as much as adamantine - but you don't exactly see a lot of people using adamantine arrows now do you...
McJarvis 01-14-08, 01:35 PM	Deepcrystal doesn't cost more than regular metal armor? Better read that again my friend. He means mundane crystal. Still 25 hps/inch & hardness 8. I bet that's better than wood- for the same cost as a masterwork bow, too. Any item could potentially be made with mundane crystal. Everyone seems to be in a constant state for forgetting that that is stated just as explicitly as the deep crystal one is.
whitebaron 01-14-08, 01:36 PM	Deepcrystal doesn't cost more than regular metal armor? Better read that again my friend. As for charging up arrows - it would be a pretty significant expense actually - not as much as adamantine - but you don't exactly see a lot of people using adamantine arrows now do you... a deepcrystal bow costs as much as 50 arrows. - as most charging snipers tend to charge once or twice per fight, this would last 25 fights - i would not call that significant if it changes costs afterwards. also, you could possibly retrieve a missed arrow. ;) but about the armor: there's no mention of deepcrystal armor costs in the srd, only that weapons cost +1000. or if there is, it is not within either the deep crystal description nor the psionic armor and weapons section. and mcj: no, i did not mean mundane crystal. and i usually reply for myself. ;)
hogarth 01-14-08, 01:36 PM	Right- but Mundane crystal has the same wording of "potentially any item can be made out of mundane crystal"- so that sets us at square one. The difference is Mundane crystal _also_ talks about the crystal being used to replace the metal parts of the weapon it modifies. And it also talks about the object "possess[ing] the properties of a similar masterwork steel weapon or armor" so there's no ambiguity as to how much a crystal object weighs -- the same as a steel one. But how much does a steel net weigh? And how many hp does it have? Telin has one suggestion, but it doesn't work in the wood shield vs. steel shield case. (I think the "any item" wording means "any metal item".)
CrazyArtificer 01-14-08, 02:36 PM	I've got a proposal on Spells (or powers). Can we have an Arcane Council to approve custom spells? Everyone could propose new spells.. once one is approved it can be playtested in a few playtest fights, and then it becomes part of the CoCo environment. Any character willing to use it in game will be required to spend money to research it (as stated in the SRD).
whitebaron 01-14-08, 02:40 PM	while i like the general idea, i don't like the impish thoughts coming to my mind immediately - most likely, this will help to introduce non-core material into coco, and would maybe violate intellectual property. while i'd love to have lesser orbs and others available for some of the characters - this should be a non-option...
McJarvis 01-14-08, 02:40 PM	I've got a proposal on Spells (or powers). Can we have an Arcane Council to approve custom spells? Everyone could propose new spells.. once one is approved it can be playtested in a few playtest fights, and then it becomes part of the CoCo environment. Any character willing to use it in game will be required to spend money to research it (as stated in the SRD). It's been asked before- and the short answer is no. CoCo won't have custom spells anytime soon. (and probably never will)
TelinArtho 01-14-08, 05:37 PM	Does anyone have anything new to add to the discussion about Deep crystal? I would rather see it resolved quickly with the information available then to have it dragged on while Aquin fights through the ranks... If there is nothing new - and there is desire to see it houseruled in someway - summarize and send it over to the courtroom.
McJarvis 01-14-08, 05:51 PM	Does anyone have anything new to add to the discussion about Deep crystal? I would rather see it resolved quickly with the information available then to have it dragged on while Aquin fights through the ranks... If there is nothing new - and there is desire to see it houseruled in someway - summarize and send it over to the courtroom. That was kind of what I was hoping with share spells & thorell- but summarizing it didn't work....
lonewolf 01-14-08, 06:08 PM	I have nothing new to add, but I would suport a house rule that says that nonmetal items cannot be made of Deep Crystal.
TelinArtho 01-14-08, 10:48 PM	That was kind of what I was hoping with share spells & thorell- but summarizing it didn't work.... Well, I posted my response to it. The others apparently need to be prodded - if no headway is made on either issue - I'll send off a few PMs to hopefully get things going again - the Courtroom is my authority area anyway.
CrazyArtificer 01-15-08, 08:55 AM	Nothing to add to the deep crystal discussion, but I am in favor of an house rule limiting it to metal items.
CrazyArtificer 01-15-08, 08:56 AM	It's been asked before- and the short answer is no. CoCo won't have custom spells anytime soon. (and probably never will) Well.. I understand that it's a drain of resources, but it would add a nice feature for every player. It is always possible to limit it. For example, no more than 1 spell proposal for each player at a given time. Furthermore, submitting a spell would cost credits. Pitlords doing playtest would earn credits in comparison. I would be willing to put some work into that myself, if that helps.
whitebaron 01-15-08, 09:45 AM	Well.. I understand that it's a drain of resources, but it would add a nice feature for every player. It is always possible to limit it. For example, no more than 1 spell proposal for each player at a given time. Furthermore, submitting a spell would cost credits. Pitlords doing playtest would earn credits in comparison. I would be willing to put some work into that myself, if that helps. the problem is not the free time issue. you have a major limiting factor: ensure there is no copyright infringement involved. (like Lesser Orb of Cold) -> this would take much more time than playtesting, balancing and designing a good system to approve spells - and this time needs to be taken per spell. If CoCo (unwillingly, unknownst) starts violating other content, its home at WotC might be at a stake too. While i don't think it actually would be that bad to migrate to any other board with more options for the populace, pitlords etc, i can see clearly the increase of population only because we have a board AT gleemax, and not somewhere else.
CrazyArtificer 01-15-08, 09:49 AM	That's something I didn't consider.. surely it's important to stay inside this forum to have new players. At the same time it would be almost impossible to have spells which doesn't mimic in some way other spells, as they publish new ones in every new book.
Durzulgor 01-15-08, 10:40 AM	That's something I didn't consider.. surely it's important to stay inside this forum to have new players. At the same time it would be almost impossible to have spells which doesn't mimic in some way other spells, as they publish new ones in every new book. tell me if you find a "greater grease" somewhere... ^^
TelinArtho 01-15-08, 11:11 AM	We are planning a maintenance down time for the forums and Gleemax. This may take up to 24 hours. During this time the forums and Gleemax blogs may not be available at all. While I am not sure the exact date this will happen it may be as soon as this Wednesday 1/16/08. I just wanted to be sure to give you guys a heads up so if you try to log in and we aren't here, you won’t be surprised! This could really derail tomorrow's pairings... everyone do take note.
templer10 01-15-08, 12:05 PM	Question - Does a char that have a Psicrystal suffer the same -2 to his leadership score as wizards/sorcers with Familiars? The feat description only mention familiars, animal companions and speciel mounts not psicrystals.
TelinArtho 01-15-08, 01:09 PM	Yes because the leadership feat was written previous to the psionic stuff and we treat psicrystals as familiars for things that we aren't absolutely sure about.
TelinArtho 01-15-08, 01:31 PM	I am moving this out of the Battles thread for easier searching later. If there is disagreement on it - might be good to mention it sooner rather than later. Question - iam not 2 clear on what spell turning reflects or doesnt reflect - If i manifest TK manuver and then use it to attempt a grapple - does it count as a spell (or in this case a power) that "targeted on you"? 2)If Spell turning stills reflects it It wont actually do anything to me since it's a concetration power right? (and i can stop concetration). 3)What happen if he has both spell turning and lesser invulnerability and i use a level 1-3 power - which is affected? Hmm - excellent questions. Feel free to ask further after the fight - but it looks to me that telekinesis does target others - so it would count as a spell for reflection. Now it would be reflected back on you, but if it was the sustained force or combat maneuver - you could just cease concentration. You wouldn't be able to for the violent thrust, since that is an instantaneous effect though. For spell turning and lesser globe of invulnerability - I'd say the globe would interact first (since it actually extends out from the caster - whereas the reflection is only on the caster himself).
McJarvis 01-15-08, 01:44 PM	For spell turning and lesser globe of invulnerability - I'd say the globe would interact first (since it actually extends out from the caster - whereas the reflection is only on the caster himself). If they _did_ happen at the same time(which they don't), I believe the rule of thumb would be whatever is more benefecial to the owner of the turning/globe effects. [Just in case you're right on the edge of the globe]
TelinArtho 01-15-08, 01:50 PM	True - I forgot that the globe is stationary.
TelinArtho 01-15-08, 03:22 PM	My latest creation has been added to the characters thread. Lizardfolk provides an interesting challenge - but I've always liked the race - so figured it is about time I made one... S'lertak Ssilva Plan is to pick up a level of barbarian (skill points to go into climb and to qualify for Outmaneuver). From there, I'm unsure if I'll waste the BAB and take a level of Rogue then druid or just go full druid. The level of rogue of course synergizes real well with 3 attacks on a full attack - the druid levels helping with an animal companion that can flank.
MindWandererB 01-15-08, 04:06 PM	Re: Custom spells: I can see only one reasonable implementation, in the form of direct-damage spells. Those are the only ones for which there's a specific guide for what level they should be. And even then, it's not as great as it could be, what with options like SR and save/touch attack. Given that we're T-5 months until 4e, I'm not sure it's worth the trouble. Re: Deepcrystal: I don't see the need for a house rule making it only usable for metal items. I don't get that as an RAI thing. It's less potent for bows than for melee weapons, since the charge is lost when you miss. The net is the only absurd use I've seen so far. Re: Share Spells: I wasn't aware a ruling was needed. The most recent RotG is the one that applies--was there a reason not to go wih that?
TelinArtho 01-15-08, 04:15 PM	So an item that works otherwise as it should just with a lot of hps is out of control when a ranged weapon that is able to be charged for a +2d6 damage on a whim, and triples the hp is not out of control? How about a large deepcrystal bow? (hardness 5, 10hp for a regular large bow; hardness 10, 30hp for a deepcrystal one) For all of the "outcry" of the net being absurd - it was barely effective for 2 rounds and could have been defeated just as easily as a regular net (burst DC and escape artist DC did not change). If we aren't going to houserule it to restrict it to non-metal items - I don't think we should houserule it to restrict it to non-rope items. For the share spells - there were a number of proposals offered and some asking for just the RotG article. It would help to close the issue to just have the rest of us respond to it.
hogarth 01-15-08, 04:17 PM	Re: Deepcrystal: I don't see the need for a house rule making it only usable for metal items. I don't get that as an RAI thing. It's less potent for bows than for melee weapons, since the charge is lost when you miss. The net is the only absurd use I've seen so far. According to the rules, a deepcrystal weapon has the properties of a mundane crystal weapon, plus the charging ability. And according to the rules, a mundane crystal weapon has the same properties as a masterwork steel weapon. So my question is: what are the properties of a masterwork steel net? And where can I get one? Like I said -- what I think is dumb may not reflect the views of anyone else in the universe. :)
McJarvis 01-15-08, 04:55 PM	Re: Deepcrystal: I don't see the need for a house rule making it only usable for metal items. I don't get that as an RAI thing. It's less potent for bows than for melee weapons, since the charge is lost when you miss. The net is the only absurd use I've seen so far. There is a need about as much as there was a need to define "humanoid" as anything but having the humanoid type- or to define the damage from matter agitation as fire damage. We didn't look at whether those "needed" fixing- why should we care about that now?
hogarth 01-15-08, 05:28 PM	There is a need about as much as there was a need to define "humanoid" as anything but having the humanoid type- or to define the damage from matter agitation as fire damage. We didn't look at whether those "needed" fixing- why should we care about that now? Don't forget "you must have double the space in order to fly with wings"... EDIT: Note to self -- remember to buy deep crystal spell component pouch. ;)
lonewolf 01-15-08, 05:35 PM	EDIT: Note to self -- remember to buy deep crystal spell component pouch. ;) and deepcrystal holy symbols...
TelinArtho 01-15-08, 05:48 PM	and deepcrystal holy symbols... This may be in jest but Kraegin seriously considered purchasing an Adamantine holy symbol after his bout with Mer-Man. Often purchasing extras of the items you may want work just as well as a deterrant to sundering. Of course the part of this that I enjoy the most is that a tanglefoot bag would be so much more effective than a net (better range, automatically gives the entangled state for 2-8 rounds, reflex save to stick the opponent in place) - yet I chose the option that costs 20 times as much (okay - 10 times since Aquin crafted it himself...).
SauroGrenom 01-15-08, 09:11 PM	Deep crystal anything? As far as I understand the RAW, that's the way it is. Even though it's a bit nuts for there to be deep crystal parchment and deep crystal soap along with the deep crystal water skin, that's the RAW. Unless we want to edit the rules again, I see no reason to change this. So far I haven't heard a compelling balance reason to change. Deep crystal soap is nonsensical, but also not ever appeared in CoCo as an exploit. So I'd vote to keep it as written.
Durzulgor 01-15-08, 09:18 PM	Deep crystal soap is nonsensical,... no kidding, but I actually do own a steel "soap" of sorts. I'll have a look through the internet and maybe post a link! ^^ => found something (http://www.thewishingfish.com/steelsoap.html) => and here is the matching wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stainless_steel_soap) article
templer10 01-16-08, 06:01 AM	Wondering - anyone planning on activating a char in the ECL 10-13 range today? i dont particulery want another Monster fight for lorian/elrick so i wonder if i have someone else planning to activate.
Stormwind 01-16-08, 07:35 AM	Wondering - anyone planning on activating a char in the ECL 10-13 range today? i dont particulery want another Monster fight for lorian/elrick so i wonder if i have someone else planning to activate. Nothing wrong with monster fights :D Actually, I quite like monster fights due to the uncertainty factor ... I feel that wins vs. Unknown monster are much more mentally rewarding as you need to be prepared for almost anything. In some ways I consider this a better test of a characters ability/preparedness than fighting against specific opponents against whom you are able to fully prepare (or metagame) for all contingencies. That being said, in a few weeks Varjo should be entering the ECL10 league ... more chance of a monster fight for you ;)
dulsi 01-16-08, 08:00 AM	Of course the part of this that I enjoy the most is that a tanglefoot bag would be so much more effective than a net (better range, automatically gives the entangled state for 2-8 rounds, reflex save to stick the opponent in place) - yet I chose the option that costs 20 times as much (okay - 10 times since Aquin crafted it himself...). Also Aquin hasn't even done well in the arena. If a other characters started using it and winning, I could understand but Aquin has lost most of his fights. Obviously it isn't giving him a huge advantage.
templer10 01-16-08, 08:02 AM	Nothing wrong with monster fights :D Actually, I quite like monster fights due to the uncertainty factor ... I feel that wins vs. Unknown monster are much more mentally rewarding as you need to be prepared for almost anything. In some ways I consider this a better test of a characters ability/preparedness than fighting against specific opponents against whom you are able to fully prepare (or metagame) for all contingencies. That being said, in a few weeks Varjo should be entering the ECL10 league ... more chance of a monster fight for you ;) In my experienve it's more a test of how much time the pitlord want to spend on said monster fight, which makes it so unloevd. Also there is the fact that Monsters generaly tend to be Autolosses to either side with only about 10-20% of them actually Even fights, essentially almost every time i Lost a monster fight is Due to the fact i was simply outgunned - 1 level 12 char simply has little to no chance vs 3 monsters, EACH ecl 18... on the other hand said ECL 12 char vs a classed anything will almost always win due to the fact it is 36 point buy vs 25 point buy, has much more gear and the player has more experience running it.
hogarth 01-16-08, 08:44 AM	Also Aquin hasn't even done well in the arena. If a other characters started using it and winning, I could understand but Aquin has lost most of his fights. Obviously it isn't giving him a huge advantage. I didn't say it was overpowered, I said it was dumb and ill-defined. Similarly, I don't think having Matter Agitation do untyped damage is overpowered, I just think it's dumb to say that a power that causes: "heating" "combustion" ignition of flammable material boiling water smoldering wood burning skin -- has nothing to do with fire damage. :) Anyways, it looks like the elders don't have any problems with it, so I'll let the matter drop.
templer10 01-16-08, 08:56 AM	Also Aquin hasn't even done well in the arena. If a other characters started using it and winning, I could understand but Aquin has lost most of his fights. Obviously it isn't giving him a huge advantage. Well if i were a mean person i would mention that you can take Said net and slap some enhancement bonus's on it (it is a weapon after all) and get even more hardness and HP, But iam not so mean so i wont. p.s - can you add the distance Speciel ability to a net?
McJarvis 01-16-08, 09:48 AM	I didn't say it was overpowered, I said it was dumb and ill-defined. Similarly, I don't think having Matter Agitation do untyped damage is overpowered, I just think it's dumb to say that a power that causes: "heating" "combustion" ignition of flammable material boiling water smoldering wood burning skin -- has nothing to do with fire damage. :) Anyways, it looks like the elders don't have any problems with it, so I'll let the matter drop. As I've stated before- unless something is overpowered, we really should leave it alone. Having a million house-rules to make things "make sense" is going to drag down this game. So while I might agree that matter agitation is fire damage(though note that lightning would do all of those things too- perhaps sparks are flying?), I don't think it should be changed. On the other hand, Prescience Offensive in combination with ego whip was obviously something that needed to be changed.
hogarth 01-16-08, 09:57 AM	As I've stated before- unless something is overpowered, we really should leave it alone. Having a million house-rules to make things "make sense" is going to drag down this game. Well, I like to think of it the opposite way: if everyone uses common sense on how things work, then there's no need for endless counter-intuitive clarifications (e.g. in the CoCo, centaurs can climb just fine with no penalty, or a manta ray lying on the floor can grab something 10' off the ground) that drag down the game.
McJarvis 01-16-08, 10:01 AM	Well, I like to think of it the opposite way: if everyone uses common sense on how things work, then there's no need for endless counter-intuitive clarifications (e.g. in the CoCo, centaurs can climb just fine with no penalty) that drag down the game. The problem is that common sense isn't as common as you might think. For instance- I think it's pretty clear that if my body was completely protected from fire then lightning of any sort wouldn't be able to do nearly as much damage, since it couldn't cook me from the inside. Apparently D&D rules disagree, though- so I don't push the issue.
hogarth 01-16-08, 10:08 AM	The problem is that common sense isn't as common as you might think. For instance- I think it's pretty clear that if my body was completely protected from fire then lightning of any sort wouldn't be able to do nearly as much damage, since it couldn't cook me from the inside. Apparently D&D rules disagree, though- so I don't push the issue. In that case, I highly recommend that you don't bring your toaster into the bathtub with you. Even though the water renders you fireproof, I've heard the experience is unpleasant. :)
lonewolf 01-16-08, 10:12 AM	In that case, I highly recommend that you don't bring your toaster into the bathtub with you. Even though the water renders you fireproof, I've heard the experience is unpleasant. :) :rofl:
templer10 01-16-08, 10:30 AM	mcjarvis - are you going to start/finish running that inter league nightmare? p.s. - why can't one char ride another One - if the size diffrence is enough - As an ill suietd mount anyway. After all - when a tiny creature sits on a large cerature - it's basicly a speck of dust...
McJarvis 01-16-08, 10:32 AM	In that case, I highly recommend that you don't bring your toaster into the bathtub with you. Even though the water renders you fireproof, I've heard the experience is unpleasant. :) I don't often have actual water all throughout my body when I'm in a bathtub- though I hear that fireproofing via magic will protect you even from things that burn you from the inside, like matter agitation. My good friend Hogarth told me so. edit- I also hear that "fireproofing" will protect you from boiling water- though strangely my friend Hogarth tells me that the water should be fire-proofing me. Maybe boiling water is untyped damage? RE: Fight- there were several issues(technical, rules, and time-crunches at work) that kept me from getting to the fight. It's rolling into week 2- a first for me, I believe.
templer10 01-16-08, 10:39 AM	I don't often have water all throughout my body when I'm in a bathtub- though I hear that fireproofing via magic will protect you even from things that burn you from the inside, like matter agitation. My good friend Hogarth told me so. RE: Fight- there were several issues(technical, rules, and time-crunches at work) that kept me from getting to the fight. It's rolling into week 2- a first for me, I believe. o.k. then - hope you can do it early then for next week since i have a Cohort to add (if we win anyway) - and that always takes a LOT of time.
McJarvis 01-16-08, 10:43 AM	o.k. then - hope you can do it early then for next week since i have a Cohort to add (if we win anyway) - and that always takes a LOT of time. I'll do my best. I've sent a note to pitlords so it won't get re-assigned to another pitlord. [I'm pretty sure I'll be doing it faster than anyone else at this point]
lonewolf 01-16-08, 10:46 AM	o.k. then - hope you can do it early then for next week since i have a Cohort to add (if we win anyway) - and that always takes a LOT of time. Your actually gonna take Leadership with Merciless Killer? Man I sure hope to dodge your team as pitlord in the future...
hogarth 01-16-08, 10:46 AM	I don't often have actual water all throughout my body when I'm in a bathtub- though I hear that fireproofing via magic will protect you even from things that burn you from the inside, like matter agitation. As a side note, Matter Agitation only affects the surface of a creature (2 sq ft of surface area of an object or creature, to be precise).
templer10 01-16-08, 10:53 AM	Your actually gonna take Leadership with Merciless Killer? Man I sure hope to dodge your team as pitlord in the future... WEll he IS a sorcerer and he DOES have all that charisma... and on the subject of avoiding our team - Hogarth - you want to tell the future Pitlord population of the world or shall i?
hogarth 01-16-08, 11:04 AM	WEll he IS a sorcerer and he DOES have all that charisma... and on the subject of avoiding our team - Hogarth - you want to tell the future Pitlord population of the world or shall i? I was also thinking of taking Leadership for Snake-Eyes (meaning that there would be two party members + two cohorts + assorted pets). I've mostly decided against it, though; I might just buy a hippogriff instead. The problem is that Leadership is far and away the most powerful feat (IMO), so it's hard to justify not taking it; if you don't, you're hobbling yourself against those who do. Usurpator referred to "pre-emptive cohorts" i.e. taking Leadership just to keep the balance of power mostly even against other gladiators.
Stormwind 01-16-08, 01:31 PM	I was also thinking of taking Leadership for Snake-Eyes (meaning that there would be two party members + two cohorts + assorted pets). I've mostly decided against it, though; I might just buy a hippogriff instead. The problem is that Leadership is far and away the most powerful feat (IMO), so it's hard to justify not taking it; if you don't, you're hobbling yourself against those who do. Usurpator referred to "pre-emptive cohorts" i.e. taking Leadership just to keep the balance of power mostly even against other gladiators. Yeah, leadership is pretty much a no-brainer if you are trying to optimize as it gives your character more options. I personally prefer to choose feats that are in keeping with the character from a (IC) roleplay perspective, for example, I'm planning on a cohort for Varjo (she's already taken the leadership feat ... just got to do the miniquest) since a large part of her 'RP' history is related to having control over others. Of course Varjo's cohort will be chosen in keeping with her character, ... but I'll leave you in suspense for a few days longer ;) Naturally in the case of a character without a suitable IC reason, I wouldn't take leadership. But, as Usurpator mentioned and hogarth reiterated, it does hobble your character to the point that you almost need to take it to be competitive (IMHO).
TelinArtho 01-16-08, 02:56 PM	In my experienve it's more a test of how much time the pitlord want to spend on said monster fight, which makes it so unloevd. Also there is the fact that Monsters generaly tend to be Autolosses to either side with only about 10-20% of them actually Even fights, essentially almost every time i Lost a monster fight is Due to the fact i was simply outgunned - 1 level 12 char simply has little to no chance vs 3 monsters, EACH ecl 18... on the other hand said ECL 12 char vs a classed anything will almost always win due to the fact it is 36 point buy vs 25 point buy, has much more gear and the player has more experience running it. Oh goody - another baseless claim on monster fights yippee... In all seriousness - I won't have anyone in the range active (at least - I don't think I do... hmm - do I have anyone active this week?) - just didn't have the time to work on characters this week really. Well if i were a mean person i would mention that you can take Said net and slap some enhancement bonus's on it (it is a weapon after all) and get even more hardness and HP, But iam not so mean so i wont. p.s - can you add the distance Speciel ability to a net? You can add the distance ability - but it doesn't actually change the max range (so it would effectively do nothing. The distance ability modifies the range increment, not the maximum range directly.
Hirumajoe 01-16-08, 05:48 PM	So I recently had some odd thoughts regarding shapers, disguise and the Psion Uncarnate abilities... Can you use the disguise skill to pre-buff yourself a disguise so you look like a potential summon? Say, like an Astral construct? As a further question, when a medium psion uses the Assume Likeness ability of the Psion Uncarnate prestige class to take the likeness of a Large creature, what happens? Does the character become large sized and gain reach or simply look large sized? What effect does that have on attacks directed at the large looking but really only medium sized creature? Thanks.
hogarth 01-16-08, 06:51 PM	So I recently had some odd thoughts regarding shapers, disguise and the Psion Uncarnate abilities... Can you use the disguise skill to pre-buff yourself a disguise so you look like a potential summon? Say, like an Astral construct? Sure. I think you suffer some penalties to your roll, though: -2 for gender change (male/female --> neuter) -2 for race change -2 for age change, maybe? As a further question, when a medium psion uses the Assume Likeness ability of the Psion Uncarnate prestige class to take the likeness of a Large creature, what happens? Does the character become large sized and gain reach or simply look large sized? What effect does that have on attacks directed at the large looking but really only medium sized creature? Good question -- I would say that the character's space would change, but nothing else (since it says the character's abilities don't change). I could be wrong, though.
McJarvis 01-16-08, 07:00 PM	Sure. I think you suffer some penalties to your roll, though: -2 for gender change (male/female --> neuter) -2 for race change -2 for age change, maybe? That's age category- so if a normal aged psion uncarnate tried to turn into something venerable, that would apply. I would consider astral constructs to be "normal aged"
hogarth 01-16-08, 07:19 PM	That's age category- so if a normal aged psion uncarnate tried to turn into something venerable, that would apply. I would consider astral constructs to be "normal aged" I would consider them newborns. :) (Actually, I wasn't sure about that one -- that's why I said "maybe".)
Salrantol 01-17-08, 06:53 AM	From the Prison:Minor violation here. You report your armor as: Dragonhide Studded Leather Armor +1 [20lbs] [1400gp] but: Dragonhide Armorsmiths can work with the hides of dragons to produce armor or shields of masterwork quality. One dragon produces enough hide for a single suit of masterwork hide armor for a creature one size category smaller than the dragon. By selecting only choice scales and bits of hide, an armorsmith can produce one suit of masterwork banded mail for a creature two sizes smaller, one suit of masterwork half-plate for a creature three sizes smaller, or one masterwork breastplate or suit of full plate for a creature four sizes smaller. In each case, enough hide is available to produce a small or large masterwork shield in addition to the armor, provided that the dragon is Large or larger. Because dragonhide armor isn’t made of metal, druids can wear it without penalty. Dragonhide armor costs double what masterwork armor of that type ordinarily costs, but it takes no longer to make than ordinary armor of that type. Dragonhide has 10 hit points per inch of thickness and hardness 10. So, correct price would be: Masterwork Studded Leather armor=175 gp. Dragonhide version= 175*2=350 gp +1 enhancement= 1000 gp Total cost= 1350 gp. S'lertak Ssilva has 50 more gp, in the end.Actually, he doesn't. You forgot to add our semi-arbitrary "Lizardmen and troglodytes don't count as Humanoid for purposes of armor costs" rule. As such, the base cost of the armor is doubled, so you get: Non-Humanoid Studded Leather armor=50 gp. Masterwork version=200 gp. Dragonhide version=400 gp. +1 version=1400 gp.
CrazyArtificer 01-17-08, 07:09 AM	From the Prison:Actually, he doesn't. You forgot to add our semi-arbitrary "Lizardmen and troglodytes don't count as Humanoid for purposes of armor costs" rule. As such, the base cost of the armor is doubled, so you get: Non-Humanoid Studded Leather armor=50 gp. Masterwork version=200 gp. Dragonhide version=400 gp. +1 version=1400 gp. Ah! It looked weird to see TelinArtho making a mistake on his sheet...
TelinArtho 01-17-08, 07:31 AM	Just for the record - I am just as susceptible to mistakes as anyone.
McJarvis 01-17-08, 08:51 AM	If you can draw wands as part of move actions because they are "weaponlike", why are they not treated as weapons for sunder purposes?
TelinArtho 01-17-08, 09:02 AM	Because the sunder rules don't have provisions for "weapon-like" objects.
TelinArtho 01-17-08, 10:11 AM	In case anyone else is interested: Master DM Competition #40 is up and running. It looks like I'll be submitting an entry for this one since I missed out on the previous one... And congratulations to dulsi who finished in a tie for bronze in #39.
CrazyArtificer 01-17-08, 10:29 AM	@dulsi: Congrats! Thanks for posting, I'd have missed this.
McJarvis 01-17-08, 10:32 AM	Because the sunder rules don't have provisions for "weapon-like" objects. ah, missed that part. So you can't quick-draw a wand? [my confusion was spawned by my looking at that feat instead of the base rule- and it makes no reference to weapon-like objects]
hogarth 01-17-08, 10:33 AM	Because the sunder rules don't have provisions for "weapon-like" objects. You can use a wand as an improvised weapon, right? Therefore a wand is a melee weapon. :) (Hey, it makes about as much sense as using a ranged attack roll to oppose a melee attack roll when sundering a bow....)
CrazyArtificer 01-17-08, 10:36 AM	You can use a wand as an improvised weapon, right? Therefore a wand is a melee weapon. :) Just like a chair, a bottle or a large wooden table? I must create a Barbarian just to run around quick drawing large wooden tables:D
TelinArtho 01-17-08, 10:44 AM	Improvised weapons are not weapons though - so while they could be used to sunder other things - they are not considered weapons with regard to the sunder rules for being sundered. Likewise, improvised weapons are not weapons for quick-draw unless they are weapon-like to begin with (so a wand would qualify here).
McJarvis 01-17-08, 10:46 AM	Likewise, improvised weapons are not weapons for quick-draw unless they are weapon-like to begin with (so a wand would qualify here). Why? Quick-draw doesn't have "weapon-like" language within it. It just says you can draw a weapon as a free action & a concealed weapon as a move.
TelinArtho 01-17-08, 10:51 AM	Good point. Weapon-like would not qualify under Quickdraw.
MindWandererB 01-17-08, 03:07 PM	Good point. Weapon-like would not qualify under Quickdraw. That seems a bit nit-picky. The general rules about drawing weapons apply to weaponlike objects, so why wouldn't quickdraw apply as well?
TelinArtho 01-17-08, 03:12 PM	Since it doesn't mention them - that's why. I'm not really sold on it (I consider it a non-issue - has it even come up here?), but since I was asked - I see no reason why Quick draw would apply.
McJarvis 01-17-08, 03:26 PM	That seems a bit nit-picky. The general rules about drawing weapons apply to weaponlike objects, so why wouldn't quickdraw apply as well? I don't see it as any less arbitrary than other rules. For instance- size modifiers don't apply when sundering carried/worn objects, so a greataxe is just as good at sundering as a dagger, all strength & die-size considerations aside. Personally, I'd rather just stay within the bounds of the rules. No need to fix something small like this- regardless of whether its nonsensical to do so.
lonewolf 01-18-08, 05:00 AM	2 questions about a Strand of Prayer Beads: - Does the Bead of Karma also increase manifester level?(I would think so) - Can I buy only a Bead of Karma? The description suggests so but I think that there is a mistake there: A strand of prayer beads has a bead of healing, a bead of karma, and a bead of smiting. ... The power of a special bead is lost if it is removed from the strand. Reduce the price of a strand of prayer beads that is missing one or more beads by the following amounts: bead of blessing –600 gp, bead of healing –9,000 gp, bead of karma –20,000 gp, bead of smiting –16,800 gp, bead of summons –20,000 gp, bead of wind walking –46,800 gp. Faint, moderate or strong (many schools); CL 1st (blessing), 5th (healing), 7th (smiting), 9th (karma), 11th (wind walking), 17th (summons); Craft Wondrous Items and one of the following spells per bead, as appropriate: bless (blessing); cure serious wounds, remove blindness/ deafness, or remove disease (healing); righteous might (karma); gate (summons); chaos hammer, holy smite, order’s wrath, or unholy blight (smiting), wind walk (wind walking); Price 9,600 gp (lesser), 25,800 gp (standard), 95,800 gp (greater). If you remove the bead of smiting and the bead of healing from a standard Strand of Prayer Beads you would get a Bead of Karma for exactly 0gp. I would say that they just made a calculation mistake and that the standard Strand should cost 45800 totally so you can get the bead of karma for 20000gp.
mucki 01-18-08, 07:30 AM	I have a question about how "special" weapons are handled. More specifically a fire lash from a pyrokineticist. If i wield such a lash and a 2ndary weapon, can I make two attacks each round (provided I could do so with two normal weapons)? Is a fire lash a "light" weapon ? can it be wielded in the offhand at all ? Do feats that affect dual wielding affect a fire lash ? Basically, one could sum this up as: for the purpose of combat rules and feats, can I treat a fire lash (or say a soul knifes mind blade) just like a normal weapon ?
hogarth 01-18-08, 01:03 PM	2 questions about a Strand of Prayer Beads: - Does the Bead of Karma also increase manifester level?(I would think so) - Can I buy only a Bead of Karma? The description suggests so but I think that there is a mistake there: If you remove the bead of smiting and the bead of healing from a standard Strand of Prayer Beads you would get a Bead of Karma for exactly 0gp. I would say that they just made a calculation mistake and that the standard Strand should cost 45800 totally so you can get the bead of karma for 20000gp. Yes, there's a typo in the Prayer Beads entry. It was corrected in the leather-bound special edition DMG (just like the incorrect price for the Staff of Fire). In my opinion, you can't use a bead of karma to boost your manifester level (since the description of magic-psionic transparency says nothing about replacing the word "caster" with "manifester" in magic item descriptions). However I suspect I'm in the minority (judging from the discussion about using a psionatrix to improve spell DCs). Note that +1 manifester level is different from +1 caster level; extra manifester levels grant the ability to cast "higher-level" (augmented) powers, so to speak.
mucki 01-18-08, 01:15 PM	I don't know if I am just lucky, but I was unable to login from work for more or less the whole afternoon/evening. It works now from my home pc. I know that at least whitebaron, lonewolf and telin were/are also affected by this problem. I don't know if they can login again now, but if they are missing some deadlines then they probably still cannot login.
lonewolf 01-18-08, 01:18 PM	I think it was a general problem that has been fixed now.
hogarth 01-18-08, 01:43 PM	I have a question about how "special" weapons are handled. More specifically a fire lash from a pyrokineticist. If i wield such a lash and a 2ndary weapon, can I make two attacks each round (provided I could do so with two normal weapons)? Is a fire lash a "light" weapon ? can it be wielded in the offhand at all ? Do feats that affect dual wielding affect a fire lash ? Basically, one could sum this up as: for the purpose of combat rules and feats, can I treat a fire lash (or say a soul knifes mind blade) just like a normal weapon ? A pyrokineticist can use TWF (or any other combat feat) with a fire lash as if it were a whip (a 1-handed weapon). Similarly, a soulknife's mind blade is treated just like a short sword (or bastard sword or longsword) for combat purposes.
whitebaron 01-18-08, 01:45 PM	it is working again.
CrazyArtificer 01-18-08, 03:03 PM	I've got a question not directly related to the CoCo. In my tt adventure we'd need a spell which can allow us to rest (like rope trick, but I need longer duration) and at the same time block any wannabe intruder or any vibration going out (we're in an Ankheg infested mine and we really aren't looking for a fight). Any tip?
whitebaron 01-18-08, 03:05 PM	extended rope trick? :D
CrazyArtificer 01-18-08, 03:07 PM	extended rope trick? :D LOL.. no one has the Extend Spell feat.. I thought about Leomund Refuge and the similar one, but they wouldn't keep an Ankheg swarm from attacking us while sleeping. (I'm an artificer, so I can use one of my infusions to emulate any spell needed, any book, if you are wondering).
TelinArtho 01-18-08, 03:14 PM	Leave the mine :) Most other options just won't be long enough duration. Floating disk would work to get rid of the vibrations though - but again has a duration problem... You could kill the ankhegs... but I suspect you'd need the rest first...
McJarvis 01-18-08, 03:23 PM	LOL.. no one has the Extend Spell feat ...Extended rope trick with a lesser metamagic rod of extend?
CrazyArtificer 01-18-08, 03:24 PM	Leave the mine :) We'd like. But all the surrounding area is infested as well, so that wouldn't solve much. Even worse, the wind walk spell we had purchased wouldn't work anymore and we would have to use a very bad looking lift to go down to the mine.. Nevertheless, Ankhegs are near it, ready to eat. Most other options just won't be long enough duration. Floating disk would work to get rid of the vibrations though - but again has a duration problem... You could kill the ankhegs... but I suspect you'd need the rest first... We could kill a few probably, but the mine is too large and the area too deeply infested to have any chance to wipe them all out if they manage to feel some vibrations.. Also we need just to swim inside a sort of underground river to get access to a dungeon so we'd really like to keep any offensive resource for what we are going to find inside the dungeon, rather than outside. I am thinking of casting the rope trick twice. Not very elegant, but it could be effective. Rope trick, go down when it's going to end, cast floating disk and then rope trick again. Exit the final one with another floating disk. It should work. edit: no one has the rod, either.
whitebaron 01-18-08, 03:27 PM	mucki does this there and then with his tt artificer. - i know the infusion. ;) still, rope trick is the most usable spell for such occasions - and you should not be in a mine full of ankhegs if you're not a high enough level to create a rope trick with CL 8. :) -edit: the rod would not work on an artificer's infusion, and would also not work on his spell storing item.
CrazyArtificer 01-18-08, 03:33 PM	still, rope trick is the most usable spell for such occasions - and you should not be in a mine full of ankhegs if you're not a high enough level to create a rope trick with CL 8. :) Eheh.. I think they are mostly scenographic but I don't want to risk and find out that I'm wrong. We need to recover an item earlier than another party and we should be at least 3-4 days ahead (thanks to wind walk), so we can afford to take some rest and reach the dungeon with all our spells. We are just a 3 people party (but hey, we got a druid) so that's going to be even trickier.
mucki 01-18-08, 04:27 PM	Well, if you are CL6 and willing to spend some XP (and desperate), then you could cast: Air Breathing: Clr3,Drd3,Sor/Wzd3 Range: touch Target: living creatures touched Duration: 2hr/level, divide as you choose among all targets Then you can just go and catch some sleep at the bottom of the underground river ;-) Share it evenly and refresh it once through the night and you get by with 2 casts (2x 4 hours for 3 persons each). Or cast it 3 times for a flat out of 12h or 14h of breath per person.
TelinArtho 01-18-08, 04:29 PM	I think that spell is Water Breathing mucki... but still - not a bad idea. The ankhegs wouldn't likely burrow into the river. The only question then becomes is the river reasonable to stay in for hours... most underground rivers have a static temperature and it is usually on the border of freezing... Now - if the druid has multiple castings of Endure elements - this is a solid and workable option...
mucki 01-18-08, 04:35 PM	Ah maybe. I was leaving though the spell compendium when i found it, but i think i misunderstood the wording. Actually ... coming to think of it: what would happen if you cast Leomunds tiny hut at the bottom of the river ? It keeps out rain, so it should be waterproof. It withstands anything bar a hurricane, so it might withstand the river. and the movement of the water is sure to cancel any vibrations you make in your sleep.
Durzulgor 01-18-08, 05:04 PM	well, I'd assume the water-pressure of a river, even a uite stationary one, is far greater than that of any hurricane! Only because it's slower and thus not as violent doesn't mean its less powerfull!
MindWandererB 01-18-08, 05:28 PM	I would think that if you cat Tiny Hut in a river, all the water currently in the area would stay there.... I would also think that Secure Shelter would be adequate protection from ankhegs. They're not bright enough to realize that a cottage suddenly appearing in their den means that there are probably juicy adventurers inside.
TelinArtho 01-18-08, 05:33 PM	But would the secure shelter prevent the detection by the ankhegs via tremorsense? I wouldn't think so myself.
MindWandererB 01-18-08, 05:44 PM	True, but how much does it really matter? Would anhkegs batter their way through solid rock to get at anything they felt? Plus, tremorsense only works when you're moving--if you sit still and rest, they won't pick it up. If they do start smashing down the walls, you can just freeze and they should go away before long.
mucki 01-18-08, 06:34 PM	Ah, the voice of reason :) Well, you are probably right, but that takes away the reason to come up with a far fetched plan, using some obscure spells for purposes they were never intended for. I mean that is what being an artificer is all about! (Well that and playing around with technomagical thingamajigs, preferably powerful technomagical thingamajigs. *goes and looks for big red buttons to press*)
mucki 01-19-08, 03:29 AM	A few more questions about whips and pyrokineticists: A whip deals no damage to creatures with an armor bonus of +1. What if a whip has some additional magic damage attached to it (say a flaming whip or weapon afire) ? does it deal that additional damage on hit ? is that additional damage subdual (as for whip damage) or lethal ? A pyro can take Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization (if she otherwise meets the prerequisites) in conjunction with the fire lash, as well as any feats that apply to the use of a standard whip. Do i read this correct as: A pyro can take Weapon Focus (Flame Lash) and it works, but he could also take Weapon Focus (Whip) and it would work also ?
lonewolf 01-19-08, 07:31 AM	2 questions about a Strand of Prayer Beads: - Does the Bead of Karma also increase manifester level?(I would think so) - Can I buy only a Bead of Karma? The description suggests so but I think that there is a mistake there: A strand of prayer beads has a bead of healing, a bead of karma, and a bead of smiting. ... The power of a special bead is lost if it is removed from the strand. Reduce the price of a strand of prayer beads that is missing one or more beads by the following amounts: bead of blessing –600 gp, bead of healing –9,000 gp, bead of karma –20,000 gp, bead of smiting –16,800 gp, bead of summons –20,000 gp, bead of wind walking –46,800 gp. Faint, moderate or strong (many schools); CL 1st (blessing), 5th (healing), 7th (smiting), 9th (karma), 11th (wind walking), 17th (summons); Craft Wondrous Items and one of the following spells per bead, as appropriate: bless (blessing); cure serious wounds, remove blindness/ deafness, or remove disease (healing); righteous might (karma); gate (summons); chaos hammer, holy smite, order’s wrath, or unholy blight (smiting), wind walk (wind walking); Price 9,600 gp (lesser), 25,800 gp (standard), 95,800 gp (greater). If you remove the bead of smiting and the bead of healing from a standard Strand of Prayer Beads you would get a Bead of Karma for exactly 0gp. I would say that they just made a calculation mistake and that the standard Strand should cost 45800 totally so you can get the bead of karma for 20000gp. :bump:
Salrantol 01-19-08, 07:35 AM	@lonewolf:Yes, there's a typo in the Prayer Beads entry. It was corrected in the leather-bound special edition DMG (just like the incorrect price for the Staff of Fire).
lonewolf 01-19-08, 07:38 AM	thats the answer to one of the two questions...
hogarth 01-19-08, 09:26 AM	thats the answer to one of the two questions... You didn't like my other answer? :angel: Seriously, if you want an official comment you should ask in the Courtroom. Although it seems that a bunch of Elders have been too busy lately to comment, unfortunately.
Erithmu 01-19-08, 11:31 AM	@Lonewolf: I cant remember what the ruling was on the the crossover of stuff when we discussed the magic/Psionics transparency. (to be honest before you brought this up ... I thought that the prayer beads only worked for a divine caster. Or just assumed that they should work that way.) That aside I'm hesitant to have it cross (mostly in agreement w/ Hogarth), however I don't think there is anything in the CoCo houserules that would prevent it. As for just buying a specific pearl, I don't see why not. I have seen it done before in some of the older characters at no credit charge.
McJarvis 01-19-08, 01:42 PM	As for just buying a specific pearl, I don't see why not. I have seen it done before in some of the older characters at no credit charge. You can not buy items in any state except that which they are crafted. This was decided when I tried to gather info 1-charge wands.
Abyssal Stalker 01-19-08, 01:59 PM	Jonathon has all his HD as d12s. As per the discussion in the tavern X (posts 3787 ~ post 3794) - only the undead with templates that specifically state that they get d12s for past/future HD get d12s for non-undead levels. (I thought Erithmu was going to file a violation on this a while ago - was surprised he didn't...) Could someone with Libris Mortis check into this. I have hard times believing that this is how it should be. (I am aware of the Mummy cleric, but that could be a mistake as well.)
Stormwind 01-19-08, 02:28 PM	Could someone with Libris Mortis check into this. I have hard times believing that this is how it should be. (I am aware of the Mummy cleric, but that could be a mistake as well.) During the previous discussion in the Tavern (the posts that Telin indicated) I posed the question of whether undead use d12's or class hit die for class levels here. I also asked then for someone to check Libris Mortis and Macbrea responded here and Erithmu posted here. At that stage of the discussion, both Erithmu and Macbrea had weighed in as elders with the opinion that unless specifically stated in the racial or template description, then undead use class HD for class levels.
Erithmu 01-20-08, 12:41 AM	You can not buy items in any state except that which they are crafted. This was decided when I tried to gather info 1-charge wands. Do you have a link? The reason that I stated that I think it could be done is because it is built into the item description. Now granted there is an inconsistency in the pricing of the regular strand, so we kinda have to houserule/tweak that. But there is still a limit to the combination of beads that you can get on a strand. I can see how you could say that you must buy them in original form. I think the only exception would be for the greater strand as we would need to remove the bead of summons since that is DM fiat, and also based on a banned spell. Despite all this I would still lean in my statement above.
Salrantol 01-20-08, 08:38 AM	The only ruling akin to what McJarvis is saying is that wands can only be bought with their full 50 charges, because to allow otherwise is to render scrolls basically obsolete, because a 1-charge wand >> a scroll. Similarly, any other 50-charge item must be purchased at its full price. Since the beads of a strand of prayer charms are individually priced, they can be bought individually.
mucki 01-20-08, 09:23 AM	Ok, one last (hopefully) question about my new character concept: Can you use gauntlets of ogre power (or similar) to fulfill feat prerequisites (as in: needs STR 13) ? The FAQ says yes, lonewolf thinks no, and I think i remember the question coming up a while ago, but can't find it or remember the outcome.
templer10 01-20-08, 09:39 AM	Ok, one last (hopefully) question about my new character concept: Can you use gauntlets of ogre power (or similar) to fulfill feat prerequisites (as in: needs STR 13) ? The FAQ says yes, lonewolf thinks no, and I think i remember the question coming up a while ago, but can't find it or remember the outcome. yes you can - it came up before.
Erithmu 01-20-08, 09:40 AM	Ok, one last (hopefully) question about my new character concept: Can you use gauntlets of ogre power (or similar) to fulfill feat prerequisites (as in: needs STR 13) ? The FAQ says yes, lonewolf thinks no, and I think i remember the question coming up a while ago, but can't find it or remember the outcome. Yes you can, however if you get hit by a spell that lowers your strength, those feats become unavailable. So if you ever remove those gauntlets, you lose the ability to use any feat that is associated with it.
hogarth 01-20-08, 12:33 PM	Ok, one last (hopefully) question about my new character concept: Can you use gauntlets of ogre power (or similar) to fulfill feat prerequisites (as in: needs STR 13) ? The FAQ says yes, lonewolf thinks no, and I think i remember the question coming up a while ago, but can't find it or remember the outcome. I don't really like this kind of ruling, since you can end up with dumb situations like: "Hey, as long as I keep my gauntlets on I'm a blackguard, but when I take them off I'm just an ordinary schlub."
whitebaron 01-20-08, 04:02 PM	i believe that using items as prerequisites is not a good choice. where's the difference to a skill enhancer to gain other prerequisites as well? get hide+10, move silently +10, and avoid most of the shadowdancer prerequisites. many might say now, "no, thats not skill ranks" - well, i believe an enhancement bonus to an ability is the same. as is an item that grants a feat (ring of evasion) i'll never allow those things in TT. btw: i don't find this in the official 3.5 FAQ. anyone can point this out to me where this ought to be?
MindWandererB 01-20-08, 04:28 PM	I don't recall the source either, but the problem is that many feats (e.g. Greater TWF, Blindsight 5' radius, almost all epic feats) are designed so that you pretty much need the items to meet the requirements. If items cannot be used to meet the prereqs, the prereqs have to be lowered accordingly.
Hirumajoe 01-20-08, 04:31 PM	i believe that using items as prerequisites is not a good choice. where's the difference to a skill enhancer to gain other prerequisites as well? get hide+10, move silently +10, and avoid most of the shadowdancer prerequisites. many might say now, "no, thats not skill ranks" - well, i believe an enhancement bonus to an ability is the same. as is an item that grants a feat (ring of evasion) i'll never allow those things in TT. btw: i don't find this in the official 3.5 FAQ. anyone can point this out to me where this ought to be? Because skills which exist which can't be used untrained, skill ranks will always be fundamentally different from straight up bonuses. Otherwise, anyone with a +1 Dex modifier could use tumble. Or something like that. Out of curiosity, at the Table top, how do deal with stat losses and enhancement bonuses? What do you do in the case where someone has 13 base strength, +4 Enhancement bonus, and then gets drained of 1 strength. Does he lose the benefit of the feat (or class) in that case? Does it matter if its damage or drain? In some ways, the "If your total stat is high enough (with all bonuses)" is easier to adjudicate. Which might have been the motivating factors behind the current rules.
whitebaron 01-20-08, 04:39 PM	in my opinion, if you have the feat, you have it. no adjustments due to stat loss. a feat is something you learned, and you learned it because you have a strong build (power attack e.g.) or are nimble (twf), and even if you cease to be that powerful, you could still try to powerattack. enhancement bonuses to skills don't seem different to enhancement bonusses to ablities, especially if it is a skill that can be used untrained (like in my example hide/ms)
CrazyArtificer 01-20-08, 06:03 PM	@MWB. For some reasons multi-quote didn't work. The main problem with Secure Shelter is that I need a DC 32 UMD check to emulate it, and I've got "just" a +18 modifier at 5th level. It's pretty risky to cast. On the other hand 2 level 2 +2 level 1 spells burn 4 slots but require 2 DC 26 + 2 DC 23 checks. My DM thinks it could be the right spell to cast, also. Ah, the voice of reason :) Well, you are probably right, but that takes away the reason to come up with a far fetched plan, using some obscure spells for purposes they were never intended for. I mean that is what being an artificer is all about! (Well that and playing around with technomagical thingamajigs, preferably powerful technomagical thingamajigs. *goes and looks for big red buttons to press*) Eh, that's exactly why I play an artificer. It's always nice to come up with a totally different use for a spell.. even better when you cast it in a moment where the DM is expecting everything else.
Rauul 01-20-08, 06:08 PM	I don't recall the source either, but the problem is that many feats (e.g. Greater TWF, Blindsight 5' radius, almost all epic feats) are designed so that you pretty much need the items to meet the requirements. If items cannot be used to meet the prereqs, the prereqs have to be lowered accordingly. Hold it... you mean Shadow has Qualified for Shadowdancer with Equipment (enhancement bonuses to hide and Move Silently, as well as the Feats since level 3) i could of taken it 2 levels ago? and here i was going by needing the acually unmodified ranks in the skills... well crap
lonewolf 01-20-08, 06:15 PM	no. skill ranks are different from ability scores for the purpose of prerequesites. And while that might not make much sense, frankly I dont care that much because this is primarily a balance issue.
Rauul 01-20-08, 06:30 PM	no. skill ranks are different from ability scores for the purpose of prerequesites. And while that might not make much sense, frankly I dont care that much because this is primarily a balance issue. Ok thanks... I was about to retire all my characters and start over (still may since they are all failures)
McJarvis 01-20-08, 06:56 PM	Do you have a link? I found the date Cat originally told me that- but looking at the post[where I literally just said in a tavern post "I've been informed by Cat that..."], it's obvious I got the message in a private IM. Essentially, the argument stemmed down to this: 1) You never buy "used" items in gladius, even if the pricing is easy to calculate. For instance- you can _sell_ used wands[for an exact gp value], but not _buy_ used wands. In relation to the current case: just because the SRD cleanly tells us what the pearls are worth, doesn't mean you can just buy those pearls. [it's giving you the pricing for a partially used item] 2) If it isn't listed as possible in the black market, you can't do it. ...then in the actual forums, he backed up this decision with the excuse "obviously it would be broken". Except you could use the same language with regards to short-stacks of arrows- only those are specified in the black market.
Rauul 01-20-08, 08:34 PM	Little Question... what skill is used to control a Horse Drawn wagon in combat.. Ride? or Profession "Charioteer"? Just thinking of something different for my new Character..
lonewolf 01-20-08, 08:39 PM	I´d say Handle Animal.
Rauul 01-20-08, 08:51 PM	I´d say Handle Animal. thanks Combat Package for a Light Horse costs How much.. 50 or 150gp?
Rauul 01-20-08, 10:40 PM	As i am Retireing some characters and making new ones... Anyone care to Comment on Wolf-Claw (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14878075&postcount=1290) my newest?
mucki 01-21-08, 04:10 AM	i don't find this in the official 3.5 FAQ. anyone can point this out to me where this ought to be? It is in my version (july 2007) in feat section. I just checked the newest FAQ (oct 2007) and its on page 42, left column, middle.
mucki 01-21-08, 04:13 AM	A whip deals no damage to creatures with an armor bonus of +1. What if a whip has some additional magic damage attached to it (say a flaming whip or weapon afire) ? does it deal that additional damage on hit ? is that additional damage subdual (as for whip damage) or lethal ? :bump: Well, basically the question probably boils down to: Even if a whip doesn't do damage against +1 armor, does it still hit if I roll high enough (so that "on hit" stuff triggers). I would really like an answer to that one since a new character idea depends on it :)
Stormwind 01-21-08, 01:30 PM	:bump: Well, basically the question probably boils down to: Even if a whip doesn't do damage against +1 armor, does it still hit if I roll high enough (so that "on hit" stuff triggers). I would really like an answer to that one since a new character idea depends on it :) The SRD states:Whip: A whip deals nonlethal damage. It deals no damage to any creature with an armor bonus of +1 or higher or a natural armor bonus of +3 or higher. The whip is treated as a melee weapon with 15-foot reach, though you don’t threaten the area into which you can make an attack. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, you can use it against foes anywhere within your reach (including adjacent foes). Using a whip provokes an attack of opportunity, just as if you had used a ranged weapon. You can make trip attacks with a whip. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the whip to avoid being tripped. When using a whip, you get a +2 bonus on opposed attack rolls made to disarm an opponent (including the roll to keep from being disarmed if the attack fails). You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a whip sized for you, even though it isn’t a light weapon for you. My interpretation of this would be that a whip can be used to do one of the following: Attack with the whip to do non-lethal damage (The whip does no damage against any creature with an armor bonus of +1 or higher, or a natural armor bonus of +3 or higher) Make a trip attempt in place of a normal attack Make a disarm attempt (with a +2 bonus) in place of a normal attack
TheMagister 01-22-08, 01:25 AM	Since it doesn't mention them - that's why. I'm not really sold on it (I consider it a non-issue - has it even come up here?), but since I was asked - I see no reason why Quick draw would apply. Rubicanti quickdraws dorjes. Rather, he used to.
mucki 01-22-08, 03:32 AM	The SRD states: My interpretation of this would be that a whip can be used to do one of the following: Attack with the whip to do non-lethal damage (The whip does no damage against any creature with an armor bonus of +1 or higher, or a natural armor bonus of +3 or higher) Make a trip attempt in place of a normal attack Make a disarm attempt (with a +2 bonus) in place of a normal attack Well, that much is clear to me. What I am worried about is: Does a whip hit against a creature with an armor bonus of +1 ? ie: If I had a fiery whip, would it deal 1d6 fire damage against such a creature (the 1d3 nonlethal is definitely not dealt) ?
Stormwind 01-22-08, 03:43 AM	Well, that much is clear to me. What I am worried about is: Does a whip hit against a creature with an armor bonus of +1 ? ie: If I had a fiery whip, would it deal 1d6 fire damage against such a creature (the 1d3 nonlethal is definitely not dealt) ? Yes, it hits. The wording is simply that it does no damage (instead of non-lethal damage) against a creature with an armor bonus of +1. When we consider the wording of the Flaming magical enhancement, it states that: Flaming: Upon command, a flaming weapon is sheathed in fire. The fire does not harm the wielder. The effect remains until another command is given. A flaming weapon deals an extra 1d6 points of fire damage on a successful hit. Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow the fire energy upon their ammunition. Thus a flaming whip would do 1d6 fire damage against armored foes.
mucki 01-22-08, 03:48 AM	Thanks for the clarification. I thought as much, but since I didn't find any ruling for this case anywhere, and one could theoretically argue that since a whip "deals no damage" it cannot deal extra damage, I wanted to be sure before making a character that depends on it (at least once I get past the low ECLs and people tend to have better armor :) )
Stormwind 01-22-08, 04:01 AM	Thanks for the clarification. I thought as much, but since I didn't find any ruling for this case anywhere, and one could theoretically argue that since a whip "deals no damage" it cannot deal extra damage, I wanted to be sure before making a character that depends on it (at least once I get past the low ECLs and people tend to have better armor :) ) Just to be sure, you do realize that an armor bonus is different from a enhancement bonus and that _any_ armor has an armor bonus? Basically, any character in any armor (not counting shields) will be immune to the non-lethal damage done by the whip. I just wanted to mention this as the last line of your last post seems to imply otherwise.
mucki 01-22-08, 05:54 AM	actually, no. I did not realize this, but its ok. I did not intend to use the nonlethal damage of the whip for anything. Thanks for pointing this out though.
CrazyArtificer 01-22-08, 06:33 AM	What about Whip Feather Token? Whip A token that forms into a huge leather whip and wields itself against any opponent desired just like a dancing weapon. The weapon has a +10 base attack bonus, does 1d6+1 points of damage, has a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls, and a makes a free grapple attack (with a +15 attack bonus) if it hits. The whip lasts no longer than 1 hour. Would this deal damage or not to people with armor bonus? I'd say yes, given it's magically enhanced and deals lethal damage but I want to be sure (just bought 3 for Eland)
Stormwind 01-22-08, 08:22 AM	What about Whip Feather Token? Would this deal damage or not to people with armor bonus? I'd say yes, given it's magically enhanced and deals lethal damage but I want to be sure (just bought 3 for Eland) Yes this would deal lethal damage to people with an armor bonus because it is not a normal whip. It is a wondrous item, not a normal weapon. However I remember a discussion a long while back (maybe 2-3 years ago) about whip feather token's and if I remember correctly it was decided (I think by Cat), that you couldn't buy them unless you were high enough level, going by the same limits as for expendibles. In practice this would have meant that you would have had to be ECL 11 to buy them (as it requires that the creator be able to cast a 5th level arcane spell). I don't know if this decision is obselete, but I would suggest running this past the elders first to ensure that Eland doesn't get thrown in jail.
CrazyArtificer 01-22-08, 08:34 AM	Thanks Stormwind, I will have a look at courtroom and rules thread. EDIT: after checking, I can't find anything about it in Courtroom or Rules threads. Waiting for an elder opinion.
hogarth 01-22-08, 08:56 AM	Thanks Stormwind, I will have a look at courtroom and rules thread. EDIT: after checking, I can't find anything about it in Courtroom or Rules threads. Waiting for an elder opinion. That's strange -- I could've sworn that there was wording that specifically mentioned a caster level limit for single use magic items (similar to the limit for potions/scrolls/wands/etc.), but I can't find it in the rules now. EDIT: Here it is: "There is an overall cap on Expendables and Charged Items (Wands, Staffs, etc) in that they can only have a CL or ML of up to your ECL." The ruling has been that Feather Tokens, Elixirs, Universal Solvent, etc. count as "Charged Items".
CrazyArtificer 01-22-08, 09:01 AM	EDIT: Here it is: "There is an overall cap on Expendables and Charged Items (Wands, Staffs, etc) in that they can only have a CL or ML of up to your ECL." The ruling has been that Feather Tokens, Elixirs, Universal Solvent, etc. count as "Charged Items". Where can I find that ruling?
Stormwind 01-22-08, 09:10 AM	Where can I find that ruling? In the Courtroom here (under equipment)Q: Are there limits on what expendable items can be purchased? A: Yes. You may only own an amount of expendables (which are defined as oils/potions, tattoos, scrolls and powerstones) up to your ECL 2 x 50 gp. All single use expendable items, including (but not limited to) scrolls, potions, powerstones, tattoos and wondrous items, are limited to a caster/power level equal to your ECL. Scrolls and powerstones are further limited to your CL/ML + 2. Charged items, including (but not limited to) wands, dorjes, staffs, psicrowns and wondrous items are also limited to being purchased up to your ECL in caster/power level. Items with both charges or limited uses as well as a function that is continuous or does not elapse after a certain number of uses may still be purchased at any ECL (an example of this would be a Gem of Brightness, which has both effects that are charge-dependant, and effects that are not). Thus as a single use expendable item, a whip feather token is limited by this ruling. Since a whip feather token requires a casting of Major creation it requires CL11, which means it can't be purchased before ECL11.
CrazyArtificer 01-22-08, 09:12 AM	ok.. this reminds me why I did change my mind about studying law :) Guess I'll have to find something else to buy for Eland.. any tip?
TelinArtho 01-22-08, 09:43 AM	And just to be clear - that rule is also a part of the expendable cap rules. So it is not just a court ruling.
Stormwind 01-22-08, 10:19 AM	ok.. this reminds me why I did change my mind about studying law :) Guess I'll have to find something else to buy for Eland.. any tip? I'd have to take another good look at your character first ... it really depends on what you want to focus on with the character. I might suggest enhancing his ranged attacks somehow, but as to how ... ?
CrazyArtificer 01-22-08, 10:23 AM	Eland is not a very well built char.. I just started with a concept of a TW fighter which could dish some damage by fighting with sword and shield, then I realized in the early levels it would have been hard so I switched ranged for EL 3-5 The plan is to go with Ftr 2/Rogue 3/Assassin 10. I'm also considering a switch towards a two handed axe and armor spikes for TWF. When Eland will level he'll need to buy some allies to help him flank and sneak.
CrazyArtificer 01-22-08, 11:24 AM	Question on Varuxor. I never used Precognition, offensive and I'd like to switch it for a different power. Is it free?
Stormwind 01-22-08, 11:58 AM	Question on Varuxor. I never used Precognition, offensive and I'd like to switch it for a different power. Is it free? Yes. Firstly he's an ECL3 char, and secondly, he's never used it => free change You still need to post it (and have it approved) in the Training hall.
CrazyArtificer 01-22-08, 07:19 PM	Another question: can I assume a smith/expert with appropriate craft skill (NPC service, 4sp/day) and have him help me with my free craft check for money? I assume he could help me in a normal shop in a tt adventure so this shouldn't be very different, unless balance reasons come up.
Stormwind 01-23-08, 11:12 AM	Another question: can I assume a smith/expert with appropriate craft skill (NPC service, 4sp/day) and have him help me with my free craft check for money? I assume he could help me in a normal shop in a tt adventure so this shouldn't be very different, unless balance reasons come up. As far as the rules stand currently, I see no reason why not. (allies aren't allowed to help, but I can't find anything in the rules that would prohibit NPC's assisting or even crafting for you). However since it hasn't been done yet in the CoCo (that I know of), it might bring up some debate about whether it should be allowed.
CrazyArtificer 01-23-08, 11:47 AM	Thanks.. I also bought a Light Horse trained with the Combat Riding package. I paid it 275 gp (75+4 tricks needed to upgrade it from riding to combat riding*50). Is this the right price?
hogarth 01-23-08, 11:48 AM	As far as the rules stand currently, I see no reason why not. (allies aren't allowed to help, but I can't find anything in the rules that would prohibit NPC's assisting or even crafting for you). However since it hasn't been done yet in the CoCo (that I know of), it might bring up some debate about whether it should be allowed. From the Rules of Gladius, "Ally Spellcasting and Crafting": "First of all, allies may not craft any items; neither mundane nor magical ones. Essentially, they can use no skills outside of combat."
CrazyArtificer 01-23-08, 11:50 AM	From the Rules of Gladius, "Ally Spellcasting and Crafting": "First of all, allies may not craft any items; neither mundane nor magical ones. Essentially, they can use no skills outside of combat." Technically, that wouldn't be an ally, but an NPC service. (Paid to AID you outside of combat) If you can't use those NPCs, why list them at all? ;)
Stormwind 01-23-08, 12:00 PM	@hogarth: As I stated, allies are not allowed to help with any non-combat activities. However NPC's are not allies and as CrazyArtificer mentioned, why have those NPC's listed at all if they can't be used for something. Basically, I can't find anything in the rules that would prevent the out of combat use of NPC's (as listed in the rules) for crafting outside of combat. Edit: NPC's available are listed under NPC Services:Services - NPC Services of Gladius:Miscellaneous Services
lonewolf 01-23-08, 12:08 PM	I found this: You may not use the Spellcasting Service to aid you in crafting magic or psionic items. While it does not specifically prohibit NPCs crafting nonmagical items, I think the intend is clear. And even if it isnt prohibited by the current rules, it clearly should be. Otherwise you would get something for nothing which is a big "nono" here on CoCo.
Stormwind 01-23-08, 12:12 PM	I found this: While it does not specifically prohibit NPCs crafting nonmagical items, I think the intend is clear. And even if it isnt prohibited by the current rules, it clearly should be. Otherwise you would get something for nothing which is a big "nono" here on CoCo. I would have to disagree that the intent of this is clear as applying to NPC's crafting. My reasoning for this is that as it stands it is only a matter of interpretation. As it stands it would require further clarification of the rules to prevent this. I would further argue that as the rules stand, they imply that using NPC's for crafting is possible. Note that I am not trying to say that this is good (or bad), just that as it stands I would argue that it is possible. Miscellaneous Services: In a city such as Gladius there is almost no limit to the services available. You need someone to groom your horses, or perhaps you need the knowledge of a sage? No problem. The table below (or DMG,p105) provides you with some examples of services available in Gladius along with the prices per day. If you want to call on a service not in that list write a PM to the Pitlords GM Avatar and ask for guidelines and permission. None of the hirelings below may participate in an arena fight (although you can bring them with you on a Quest, and with the permission of the Campaignlord even on a Campaign). Available Services: price/day Alchemist....................1 gp Animal tender/Groom1........15 cp Architect/Engineer...........5 sp Barrister....................1 gp Clerk........................4 sp Cook.........................1 sp Entertainer/Performer........4 sp Laborer......................1 sp Limner.......................6 sp Maid.........................1 sp Mason/Craftsperson2..........3 sp Mercenary (guard)3...........2 sp Mercenary (cavalary)3........4 sp Mercenary (leader)3..........6 sp Porter.......................2 sp Sage4........................2 gp Scribe.......................3 sp Smith2.......................4 sp Teamster.....................3 sp Valet/Lackey.................2 sp 1: An animal tender cannot teach any tricks although he is considered to have 4 ranks in Handle animal (+0 Cha). 2: All Craftsmen and Smiths have 4 ranks in their relevant skill (+1 Int, +2 tool). If you want to hire a better craftsperson, double the price per rank above 4. For these NPCs the normal rules for crafting apply (time and cost, PHB,p70) 3: Mercenary Hirelings may not fight in the arena but you can bring them with you on a quest. They can act as guards or perform other duties. The Guard (War1), Cavalerist (War1), and Leader (War2) can be found in the Mercenaries Guild. 4: The listed sages have 4 ranks in their field of knowledge (+2 Int) and may roll once per day against the DC set by the GM (or Questlord/Campaignlord). If you want to consult a better sage, double the price per rank above 4. IMHO, the inclusion of NPC's, such as the smith, in the list above directly imply that NPC crafting is possible.
CrazyArtificer 01-23-08, 01:00 PM	IMHO, the inclusion of NPC's, such as the smith, in the list above directly imply that NPC crafting is possible. Not only that. We can expand the discussion to another guy there.. the Performer. What if I create a dancer and then I decide to hire two elven beauties to dance along with me and help me? There's no crafting involved in there, but the idea is the same. Rather than come up with strange limiting ideas I'd just solve it by throwing a limit on how many hirelings you can have.. Maybe total ranks no higher than your ECLx2?
McJarvis 01-23-08, 01:04 PM	Rather than come up with strange limiting ideas I'd just solve it by throwing a limit on how many hirelings you can have.. Maybe total ranks no higher than your ECLx2? If you're thinking of doing this as a free activity to gain money[and not merely to up your skill to craft items]: Remember that the money-making rules are largely made up by CoCo anyway. I would wager that any help you could receive to make money is built into those income amounts. [and allowing this mechanic would be pointless: since anyone could just say they were hiring someone in order to make a bit more gp]
Stormwind 01-24-08, 08:00 AM	Unto all the rules lawyers out there, a couple of questions: If you make a sunder/disarm attempt with a suppression weapon against a spellstoring/powerstoring weapon, then would the suppression ability be activated only on a successful sunder/disarm? What happens if/when the suppression ability is activated and a spell/power is stored in the target weapon?
whitebaron 01-24-08, 08:19 AM	All Craftsmen and Smiths have 4 ranks in their relevant skill (+1 Int, +2 tool). If you want to hire a better craftsperson, double the price per rank above 4. For these NPCs the normal rules for crafting apply (time and cost, PHB,p70) sure,go ahead, hire them. they'll need a hell lot of time for anything to complete. and normal rules for earning money with craft -> half your check. even with taking 20, this is a lot less money than you could earn by 5 ranks in any crafting skill. @suppression: i believe it would be enough to succeed in the touch attack, such as it is worded "striking" not "damaging" note the difference to spell/powerstoring in wording: Any time the weapon strikes a creature and the creature takes damage from it, [...]
lonewolf 01-24-08, 08:23 AM	a weapon is not a creature => I would say suppression doesnt trigger at all when used to strike a weapon.
Stormwind 01-24-08, 08:30 AM	a weapon is not a creature => I would say suppression doesnt trigger at all when used to strike a weapon. The SRD states:Suppression: An opponent or object struck by this kind of weapon is subject to a targeted dispel psionics power. The wielder makes a dispel check (1d20 + 5 + manifester level, maximum +15) against a DC of 11 + the manifester level of the power to be dispelled. Bows, crossbows, and slings bestow this ability upon their ammunition, but can do so only three times per day. Moderate psychokinesis ML 10th; Craft Psionic Arms and Armor, dispel psionics; Price +2 bonus. Given the wording, I would say that it should most definitely work on weapons as weapons are objects, however since it says struck, I was wondering whether a successful sunder/disarm attempt is necessary since even in a failed attempt you could argue that the weapons strike each other. More importantly, however is the second part of my question, what happens to a power/spell in a powerstoring/spellstoring weapon when it is struck by a targetted dispel (suppression).
whitebaron 01-24-08, 08:34 AM	the part with the stored power/spell should be easy. as you are targeting the weapon, the weapon has a magical ability (spell_storing), and that ability is suppressed. so the spell is still in it, although it is suppressed. (for meager 1d4 rounds)
Erithmu 01-24-08, 08:42 AM	I would agree w/ WB on that. As to the activation on Sunder/Disarm Attempts that is a little more gray. Will think about that one, but I wanna lean towards no on a fail if only for 'non-cheese' reasons.
Stormwind 01-24-08, 09:11 AM	Thanks guys, answers were about what I expected, but I wanted other people's input on how this should be resolved before I actually put them to use :D @Erithmu: I would lean towards the no on a fail for sunder/disarm for consistency reasons myself, however I'd like an elder decision (once you've thought about it, no hurry) so as to eliminate the gray area ;) If you'd like me to repost it the courtroom, then just let me know, but an informal (tavern) decision is sufficient for me.
Erithmu 01-24-08, 09:24 AM	It has more to do with the fact that it is 6:30 am where I live (at time of posting) ... with no caffeine in my system.
Stormwind 01-24-08, 09:26 AM	It has more to do with the fact that it is 6:30 am where I live (at time of posting) ... with no caffeine in my system. ahhh ... brave of you to start posting before your morning coffee. For me, the world doesn't exist in the morning until I get my morning coffee ... ;)
Zevox 01-24-08, 09:29 AM	I would agree w/ WB on that. As to the activation on Sunder/Disarm Attempts that is a little more gray. Will think about that one, but I wanna lean towards no on a fail if only for 'non-cheese' reasons. I would agree with this. Zevox
Hirumajoe 01-24-08, 02:24 PM	Some questions for future use on Altair (It doesn't make a difference until he's about level 8...) 1)Does a Psion Uncarnate's armor work against incorporeal touch attacks when the armor has been assumed and thus is incorporeal along with the wearer? 2)Does a Psion Uncarnate's melee weapons (such as a dagger or spear) which has been assumed, attack as a normal attack or as an incorporeal touch attack? 3)What happens if he throws the weapon? Does it remain incorporeal? Would a thrown dagger +1 of returning be a reusable ranged incorporeal touch attack? 4)Is it possible to attack through a wall with an incorporeal ranged or melee weapon? How about into an Ectoplasmic Cocoon? How about out of said Cocoon? Thanks for opinions ahead of time. Uncarnate Armor (Su) A psion uncarnate wearing armor (or using inertial armor or a similar effect) gets his armor bonus to AC even when he becomes incorporeal (see Shed Body, below). However, unlike other incorporeal creatures, a psion uncarnate does not gain a deflection bonus to Armor Class from his Charisma modifier. This ability works even if the armor being worn becomes incorporeal (such as through the use of the assume equipment ability described below). The physical attacks of incorporeal creatures ignore material armor, even magic armor, unless it is made of force (such as mage armor or bracers of armor) or has the ghost touch ability. An incorporeal psion uncarnate’s attacks pass through (ignore) natural armor, armor, and shields, although deflection bonuses and force effects work normally against him. He can use equipment normally, deriving benefits from items that enhance his capabilities; however, all his equipment remains material even when the character is uncarnate (but see the assume equipment ability, described below). Assume Equipment (Su) Beginning at 3rd level, a psion uncarnate can designate a number of pieces of his worn equipment (including armor and weapons) equal to his psion uncarnate level to become incorporeal when he uses his shed body ability. This has no effect on the equipment’s function, but now when the psion uncarnate is incorporeal, he can enter or pass through solid objects while wearing nothing other than the designated equipment. Once designated, the equipment automatically changes to incorporeal when the character sheds his body, and it returns to corporeality when the character does. The character can change his designations as he desires.
MindWandererB 01-24-08, 03:12 PM	I agree with the consensus on Suppression: You need a successful "hit," which can prevent the weapon from discharging its spell for 1d4 rounds. Re: Uncarnate: 1) No--oddly, the armor's properties don't change--it's not made of force and it doesn't have Ghost Touch, so it doesn't help. 2) You missed a relevant quote: An incorporeal psion uncarnate’s attacks pass through (ignore) natural armor, armor, and shields, although deflection bonuses and force effects work normally against him.So yes, an assumed weapon is an incorporeal touch attack. 3) Our precedent is that the "worn equipment" clause means that as soon as you're not holding or wearing the object, it ceases to benefit (and becomes corporeal, in this case). 4) Melee yes, ranged no (see above). Into a Cocoon, yes (the 3.5 XPH doesn't reprint the 3.0 PH's clause that the Cocoon is a force effect). Out of a Cocoon, no, because the effect specifically renders the target helpless.
Stormwind 01-24-08, 03:27 PM	1)Does a Psion Uncarnate's armor work against incorporeal touch attacks when the armor has been assumed and thus is incorporeal along with the wearer?A Psion uncarnate's assume equipment ability states 'This has no effect on the equipment’s function', except of course that the armor or equipment is now counted as incorporeal for movement through physical objects. Furthermore, as noted in the SRD: An incorporeal creature’s attacks pass through (ignore) natural armor, armor, and shields, unless they have the ghost touch ability. Deflection bonuses and force effects (such as mage armor) work normally against it. Since the armor still provides an armor bonus and doesn't provide the ghost touch ability, I would say that: No, a psion uncarnates armor doesn't not work against incorporeal touch attacks when assumed. 2)Does a Psion Uncarnate's melee weapons (such as a dagger or spear) which has been assumed, attack as a normal attack or as an incorporeal touch attack?Again, the function of the equipment is not changed so no it would not work as an incorporeal touch attack. In fact as an assumed weapon would be an incorporeal weapon, it could only be used against incorporeal foes and not against material opponents. (consider an incorporeal unarmed attack as an example - it is different from an incorporeal touch attack and it is only useable against other incorporeal creatures) Given the Psion uncarnate's incorporeality description, their attacks ignore natural armor, armor and shields, so their attacks would pass work as an incorporeal touch attack. 3)What happens if he throws the weapon? Does it remain incorporeal? Would a thrown dagger +1 of returning be a reusable ranged incorporeal touch attack?The assume equipment ability does not specify that the equipment must be held, so a thrown weapon would remain incorporeal even if it were not held. However, as mentioned above, it would only be useable against other incorporeal creatures.See comment above & MWB's comments regarding assumed equipment remaining incorporeal. 4)Is it possible to attack through a wall with an incorporeal ranged or melee weapon? How about into an Ectoplasmic Cocoon? How about out of said Cocoon?Sure, but as mentioned above, it would only be useable against other incorporeal creatures.As MWB stated, yes for melee.
Stormwind 01-24-08, 03:31 PM	I missed the part of the incorporality quote regarding the psion uncarnate attacks (thanks MWB :D) Thus that would change a few of my comments above :D
Hirumajoe 01-24-08, 03:38 PM	Thanks for the answers, the only thing I want to draw your attention to is the exact wording under the incorporeality: Cut and paste from the SRD, emphasis added by me. The physical attacks of incorporeal creatures ignore material armor, even magic armor, unless it is made of force (such as mage armor or bracers of armor) or has the ghost touch ability. Is assumed equipment armor material while incorporeal? Seems like somewhat of a contradiction, but then again, it does say the properties don't change but at the same time says its incorporeal. Of course, the simple answer is just invest in ghost touch armor if I want that benefit and not worry about rulings (also allows me other equipment in that assume equipment "slot" to boot). Cheers, Hirumajoe
templer10 01-24-08, 03:44 PM	Quick question - i have to run 3 green hag sorcerers 9 as a random monster- should they be buld using the Elite array - The SRD suggests So where it talks about giving class levels to monsters.
Erithmu 01-24-08, 04:08 PM	Quick question - i have to run 3 green hag sorcerers 9 as a random monster- should they be buld using the Elite array - The SRD suggests So where it talks about giving class levels to monsters. yes
Salrantol 01-24-08, 06:54 PM	Can unknown monsters with ranks in Craft craft their equipment?
hogarth 01-24-08, 07:18 PM	Can unknown monsters with ranks in Craft craft their equipment? i don't think so -- just like they can't use credits for equipment
MindWandererB 01-24-08, 07:58 PM	Thanks for the answers, the only thing I want to draw your attention to is the exact wording under the incorporeality: Cut and paste from the SRD, emphasis added by me. The physical attacks of incorporeal creatures ignore material armor, even magic armor, unless it is made of force (such as mage armor or bracers of armor) or has the ghost touch ability. Is assumed equipment armor material while incorporeal? Seems like somewhat of a contradiction, but then again, it does say the properties don't change but at the same time says its incorporeal. Of course, the simple answer is just invest in ghost touch armor if I want that benefit and not worry about rulings (also allows me other equipment in that assume equipment "slot" to boot). Cheers, HirumajoeIt says that under "Special Abilities & Conditions" (in the DMG), but in the "Types, Subtypes, and Special Abilities" section (in the MM), it just says "An incorporeal creature’s attacks pass through (ignore) natural armor, armor, and shields, although deflection bonuses and force effects (such as mage armor) work normally against it." In addition:The physical attacks of incorporeal creatures ignore material armor, even magic armor, unless it is made of force (such as mage armor or bracers of armor) or has the ghost touch ability.Note that it includes mage armor there, which isn't material armor. So this is a nonsensical statement as written. Also, the online glossary doesn't use the word "material," under either the incorporeal ability or subtype. Even given the ambiguity, I'm still on the side I was on before.
whitebaron 01-25-08, 08:58 AM	i have seen this being discussed before, but i still have questions: sundering boots of flying. - this is possible as far as i have read it. but whats the proper hp and hardness?
TelinArtho 01-25-08, 12:03 PM	With the conclusion of my campaign - I have decided to post the creatures I used as well. Anyone can feel free to use some of the creations I had in there elsewhere - though I reserve the right to kill off Naergo (the imp) and Villik (the lich). They are welcome to be NPCs for other purposes though.
Abyssal Stalker 01-25-08, 03:07 PM	With the conclusion of my campaign - I have decided to post the creatures I used as well. Anyone can feel free to use some of the creations I had in there elsewhere - though I reserve the right to kill off Naergo (the imp) and Villik (the lich). They are welcome to be NPCs for other purposes though. I'm curious to what was the DC for the concentration check, because you have Villik's concentration modifier wrong. You have forgotten to add +2 from his CHA 15. An undead creature possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry). ... Uses its Charisma modifier for Concentration checks.
Rauul 01-25-08, 03:33 PM	Question When taking a Monsterous Small spider as an Improved Familiar (Lvl 3).. it becomes a magical beast, and gains Int 6... Does it keep vermin Traits? Like Immune to mind effecting spells.. (it's listed under the monsters special Abilitys)
Rauul 01-25-08, 03:35 PM	With the conclusion of my campaign - I have decided to post the creatures I used as well. Anyone can feel free to use some of the creations I had in there elsewhere - though I reserve the right to kill off Naergo (the imp) and Villik (the lich). They are welcome to be NPCs for other purposes though. your an EVIL EVIL person Telin.... a Wilder Imp... Surprised you didn't make him a Psion/Thrallherd LOL
lonewolf 01-25-08, 03:42 PM	your an EVIL EVIL person Telin.... a Wilder Imp... Surprised you didn't make him a Psion/Thrallherd LOL I think the scene that I will remember best from this Campaign is where my Pseudodragon started to grapple that stupid Imp. priceless... :P
TelinArtho 01-25-08, 04:04 PM	I'm curious to what was the DC for the concentration check, because you have Villik's concentration modifier wrong. You have forgotten to add +2 from his CHA 15. Hmm - I missed that. It was 18 damage and he was casting a 7th level spell - so DC10+18+7 = 35 He rolled a 29 - which should have been 31. So it still would have failed - much closer though. your an EVIL EVIL person Telin.... a Wilder Imp... Surprised you didn't make him a Psion/Thrallherd LOL I think the scene that I will remember best from this Campaign is where my Pseudodragon started to grapple that stupid Imp. priceless... Well - I'm not very proficient with psionics still and I can design a wilder a little easier than a psion with a prestige class... but it is also that I prefer the wilder over the psion. And for what its worth - I felt my osyluth rogue was much nastier... just not as effective since it didn't get many opportunities to use the sneak attack (it tried to setup flanking with the hamatula a few times...)
CrazyArtificer 01-26-08, 09:04 AM	Still trying to figure out what to do with Eland.. I started looking at poisons.. One doubt though: are poisons considered expendables? They are single use items, but also alchemical items are single use and not considered expendables.
hogarth 01-26-08, 10:05 AM	Still trying to figure out what to do with Eland.. I started looking at poisons.. One doubt though: are poisons considered expendables? They are single use items, but also alchemical items are single use and not considered expendables. The only things considered "Expendables (tm)" are scrolls, potions, power stones and psionic tattoos; these are the items that must fit within a character's "Expendable Cap (tm)". There is a caster level limit on other magic items with charges, but poisons and alchemical items don't have a caster level. I'm not a big fan of poisons since a potion of Delay Poison makes them useless.
CrazyArtificer 01-26-08, 10:11 AM	I'm not a big fan of poisons since a potion of Delay Poison makes them useless. Sure.. but not so many gladiators run around with such potions at ECL 3 :D
Rauul 01-26-08, 11:39 AM	Question When taking a Monsterous Small spider as an Improved Familiar (Lvl 3).. it becomes a magical beast, and gains Int 6... Does it keep vermin Traits? Like Immune to mind effecting spells.. (it's listed under the monsters special Abilitys) :bump: :bump:
TelinArtho 01-26-08, 12:02 PM	Nope - just like when applying the Fiendish/Celestial template - it doesn't remove the special quality unless it specifies that it does.
McJarvis 01-26-08, 12:03 PM	Nope - just like when applying the Fiendish/Celestial template - it doesn't remove the special quality unless it specifies that it does. This needs a court ruling. Familiar rules set the familiar's int at 6 to start, mindless rules remove int entirely. The rules contradict themselves- either the familiar has a intelligence of 6 or it has no intelligence score, not both.
CrazyArtificer 01-26-08, 01:13 PM	Another question on Eland. He's 3rd level and never used Combat expertise.. I would like to rearrange his feats to enter the shadowdancer prc earlier. However If I change Combat Expertise I must change also Improved feint. I used Improved feint in a combat. Is that still free or I should pay 5°?
Rauul 01-26-08, 01:44 PM	This needs a court ruling. Familiar rules set the familiar's int at 6 to start, mindless rules remove int entirely. The rules contradict themselves- either the familiar has a intelligence of 6 or it has no intelligence score, not both. I sort of agree.. hence the reason I posted a question before I created my Forest Gnome Wizard with his Small Monstrous Web spinning Spider Familiar
whitebaron 01-26-08, 02:21 PM	@telin: i think the familiar rules are a bit different than applying a template -> it is treated as a magical beast instead of an animal for the purpose of any effect that depends on its type. so mindless is gone, but also darkvision 60' - but magical beasts have that anyway. (+low-light :))
Rauul 01-26-08, 07:01 PM	@telin: i think the familiar rules are a bit different than applying a template -> so mindless is gone, but also darkvision 60' - but magical beasts have that anyway. (+low-light :)) Improved familiars otherwise use the rules for regular familiars, with two exceptions: If the creature’s type is something other than animal, its type does not change; and improved familiars do not gain the ability to speak with other creatures of their kind (although many of them already have the ability to communicate). Except improved familiars aren't the same as normal familiars..
whitebaron 01-27-08, 06:24 AM	Except improved familiars aren't the same as normal familiars.. maybe that's the reason why there are no vermin on the improved familiar list to start with. :)
Rauul 01-27-08, 08:27 AM	maybe that's the reason why there are no vermin on the improved familiar list to start with. :) Well they are on the Coco List.. our List was expanded to make the feat usable (this was after Corrupter Spent 5 credits to get his earth Mefit) this one line was why they were added "The list in Table: Improved Familiar by Alignment presents only a few possible improved familiars. Almost any creature of the same general size and power as those on the list makes a suitable familiar." So i am going to make my Forest gnome with a Small Monstrous Spider Familiar (with exotic saddle) and keep the mindless feature till there is an Actual ruleling
Durzulgor 01-27-08, 08:48 AM	well, I can only say: were I your DM and you'd request a spidery familiar to ride on, I'd change its type to magical beast as soon as it got intelligence.
whitebaron 01-27-08, 10:47 AM	as for mindless familiars: sure, go ahead and take a mindless one. but: if it is mindless (and therefor immune to mind-affecting), none of the intelligent options of a familiar should be available to it. so: no deliver touch spells, no speak with master, no speak with animals of its kind. -> i think the advanced familiar list in coco was done without having the mindless-ness of vermin in mind. so either it changes to magical beast, or you should not be allowed to take a vermin, or it is an intelligent vermin - and thus losing the mindless-special immunity.
Rauul 01-27-08, 11:14 AM	Well here is SkorTikk Moon Spider (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14934767&postcount=1291) it's not 100% done. but thats the basics... am Looking up Weight and size for a Forest gnome.. with a saddle weight of 30lbs gonna have to drop from my list..
whitebaron 01-27-08, 11:34 AM	please add your DCs to the spells. it greatly helps pitlording. about saddle: going to buy a horse? Make sure you can afford all that - those extra spells in the spellbook eat up quite some gold. You are missing a lvl 1 spell though - 3base+4int @lvl1, 2 @ lvl2. Your current total: 8 (should be 9) Price for extra spells in spellbook: 100 (lvl 2 - npc service) + 200 (scribe into spellbook) = 300 so, 3 extra lvl 2 spells = 900 gold. 100 gold goes to the familiar - yes, you have to pay it too...
hogarth 01-27-08, 12:14 PM	maybe that's the reason why there are no vermin on the improved familiar list to start with. :) I think the book "Complete Scoundrel" adds some vermin to the improved familiar list.
SauroGrenom 01-27-08, 12:20 PM	FOr those of you who haven't already noticed, wizards guys have posted stats for the pitfiend (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dramp/20080125) in 4E. Of all the spoilers stuff released, this is probably the most revealing so far. It makes clear that the 4E mechanics will include standard and "minor" actions in every round in addition to movement. Also action points are in, and monster's have them. AC and saves will make it into the 40's or higher. Attack bonuses make it into the 30's at least. There is going to be something with respect to being wounded or "bloodied", and that having some impact on what monster can do. Looks like the pitfiend can soak a lot of damage. At least it soaks lots of damage compared to how rapidly it dishes damage (30/round +20 fire). Another good meaty spoiler for 4E was the magic items article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20080123). Here we learn that there are only 8-10 magic item slots, and only 3 of them are considered really necessary for a character to function. The others are for items that provide temporary effects useful in particular situations. I expect that things like boots of flying, or gloves of titan's grasp will be the kinds of items we'll see replacing the amulets of wisdom and headbands of intellect. An interesting flavor bit is that Ioun Stones are epic, and rings are not usable unless your character is high enough level.
CrazyArtificer 01-27-08, 12:26 PM	Thanks for posting this SauroGrenom, I didn't have time to check all this new articles. It seems 4e is interesting, but if they wanted to simplify things having a difference between hp and "bloodied" goes in the opposite direction. What's a Level 26 pit fiend, either? Modifiers seems also changed, but I didn't bother to check much on 4e, so this may have been already explained.
MindWandererB 01-27-08, 12:50 PM	Monster "level" is the new CR. Since the Pit Fiend is Elite, it counts as 2 monsters (normal encounter size is 4), so you can think of the Pit Fiend as being CR 24. Sort of. There are a lot of mechanics based on "Bloodied" now; as long as it's pre-calculated, I don't see it as a problem. I'd forgotten action points--those could be a significant hurdle for us, being "per level" rather than per encounter or per day. I'm thinking we may need to create an artificial system to handle that, making it a per-encounter or per-day thing based on the number of encounters one would be expected to need to go up a level. (For instance, in our current system, it takes an average of 5 fights to go up a level, assuming equal numbers of wins and losses, so a PC would get 1/5 of their normal action point allocation per encounter.) I really don't want to use the normal method because it rewards characters who level faster (and thus, are more successful).
SauroGrenom 01-27-08, 12:56 PM	Thanks for posting this SauroGrenom, I didn't have time to check all this new articles. It seems 4e is interesting, but if they wanted to simplify things having a difference between hp and "bloodied" goes in the opposite direction. What's a Level 26 pit fiend, either? Modifiers seems also changed, but I didn't bother to check much on 4e, so this may have been already explained. In the case of the pitfiend, it doesn't appear that the bloodied status changes much, but I get the impression from descriptions of demons that they become more powerful as they are more wounded. The bloodied status may also have importance with respect to character abilities, such as a feat or magic item that is usable when a foe is bloodied. As for the "level" of the pitfiend, I'm not 100% sure either. I get the impression that it's kind of like CR. In other words, the pitfiend is an appropriate challenge for a party of 26th level characters. The CR analogy may not be a good one, since previous articles have made a lot of the idea that encounter design should be more flexible. A GM is supposedly able to add in a couple more minions w/o making the encounter drastically more dangerous to the characters. A previous article described "levels" for magic items as well. The idea was that bracers of smashing were an appropriate magic item for characters of 10th level, but start to lag behind in utility by the time characters hit 14th level. So all magic items have "levels" that are used by the GM to get a rough idea of whether the item is appropriate for his party. This level on the pitfiend is probably something similar.
CrazyArtificer 01-27-08, 02:04 PM	Hmm.. thanks both for your replies. It seems the 4e deserves some attention, after all. The idea of magic item levels may be good, but I can see problems arising when you'll have people optimizing.. as it is now, certain class/prc combination can have a tremendous benefit even from relatively cheap magic items.. I wouldn't trust too much that rating myself. Looking again at the pitfiend, I wonder if aura 5 is the strenght of the aura. I assume 5 will be the most powerful aura, or very close to that.
McJarvis 01-27-08, 02:06 PM	Looking again at the pitfiend, I wonder if aura 5 is the strenght of the aura. I assume 5 will be the most powerful aura, or very close to that. Given that no radius is given- I'm inclined to think it's a measurement of how big the aura is. Perhaps 5 squares? Other measurements seem to be in squares instead of feet.
MindWandererB 01-27-08, 03:25 PM	Given that no radius is given- I'm inclined to think it's a measurement of how big the aura is. Perhaps 5 squares? Other measurements seem to be in squares instead of feet. I concur strongly. Although I hope they fixed the problem that emanations from a creature have (since in 3e you have to pick a corner for it to start from). I also forgot to mention earlier: I'm going to be out of town from this coming Wednesday through Sunday. I should be able to finish updating everything (that isn't late) in time for the pairings, and I'll be able to to updates resulting from that week's pairings, but I won't be able to do the pairings themselves.
CrazyArtificer 01-27-08, 03:30 PM	Yes, it sounds as a logical assumption.. It's also a good idea to move measures to squares, as it's less confusing for people using meters and the like.
Rauul 01-27-08, 03:38 PM	please add your DCs to the spells. it greatly helps pitlording. about saddle: going to buy a horse? Make sure you can afford all that - those extra spells in the spellbook eat up quite some gold. You are missing a lvl 1 spell though - 3base+4int @lvl1, 2 @ lvl2. Your current total: 8 (should be 9) Price for extra spells in spellbook: 100 (lvl 2 - npc service) + 200 (scribe into spellbook) = 300 so, 3 extra lvl 2 spells = 900 gold. 100 gold goes to the familiar - yes, you have to pay it too... Thanks... Now can you find me the Starting weight of a 2ft tall forest Gnome (exactly 2ft tall)
CrazyArtificer 01-27-08, 04:26 PM	Another question on Eland. He's 3rd level and never used Combat expertise.. I would like to rearrange his feats to enter the shadowdancer prc earlier. However If I change Combat Expertise I must change also Improved feint. I used Improved feint in a combat. Is that still free or I should pay 5°? Still waiting an answer :D
templer10 01-27-08, 04:31 PM	Still waiting an answer :D You might want to PM sauro, it is his perviwe after all.
whitebaron 01-27-08, 05:07 PM	Thanks... Now can you find me the Starting weight of a 2ft tall forest Gnome (exactly 2ft tall) i'd go for roughly 2/3rds of 40lb, since the standard gnome is 3' and he weighs 40lb. this is also in line with the gnomish female being 2'10 and weighing 35lb so i'd assume him to have 27-30 lb. about 4e and action points: it might as well be, that they are on a per-fight basis. but we will see. as action points tend to get collected till the last two or three fights of your level, i don't see them as much usable normally - if coco needs to adjust them, to do it on a per 3FC-base seems a good compromise. might be even possible to cut the normal usage out of coco - since a lot of action point rolls base on metagaming info, which i strongly dislike. about 4e and the new stat modifiers: most likely the normal modifiers are still the same, but you get some kind of paragon or epic bonus. same goes for ac and saves.
CrazyArtificer 01-27-08, 05:17 PM	You might want to PM sauro, it is his perviwe after all. Done. Dulsi, do you still need someone for a quest next week?
McJarvis 01-27-08, 05:22 PM	Do unnamed penalties stack? Example: Ray of Exhaustion, Ray of Enfeeblement.
whitebaron 01-27-08, 05:24 PM	penalties never stack.
Rauul 01-27-08, 05:28 PM	i'd go for roughly 2/3rds of 40lb, since the standard gnome is 3' and he weighs 40lb. this is also in line with the gnomish female being 2'10 and weighing 35lb so i'd assume him to have 27-30 lb. Made him an even 25lbs, i like round numbers and 30 is to fat for a yard gnome..err Forest gnome
lonewolf 01-27-08, 05:28 PM	penalties never stack. from different sources, they do.
McJarvis 01-27-08, 05:36 PM	Also- Was there ever a decision on whether Spell Focus feats work on psionic powers? I do not see a court ruling.
TelinArtho 01-27-08, 07:20 PM	That discussion was in the council McJ - check the links at the start of that thread. Strike that... I'm not sure where it was. Give me a bit to investigate. Bah - ran out of time at the moment. Will see if I can find it after my kids are in bed.
McJarvis 01-27-08, 10:40 PM	Regarding Gaseous form A gaseous creature can’t run, but it can fly at a speed of 10 feet (maneuverability perfect) Now I've always just assumed at table top that this meant you lost your land speed & gained 10' fly(perfect) - but re-reading it, it looks like you actually keep your land speed but just can't run. Am I off base here?
dulsi 01-28-08, 08:54 AM	Dulsi, do you still need someone for a quest next week? Won't be next week. I believe I'll have enough to craft mithral full plate so I'll do that as a full activity first.
CrazyArtificer 01-28-08, 08:55 AM	Won't be next week. I believe I'll have enough to craft mithral full plate so I'll do that as a full activity first. Ok. May I ask you if you prefer going on a quest with Eland or Varuxor, in the end? So that I plan who I have to activate for the next 3fc
Stormwind 01-28-08, 11:11 AM	i have seen this being discussed before, but i still have questions: sundering boots of flying. - this is possible as far as i have read it. but whats the proper hp and hardness? @whitebaron: As far as I can tell, winged boots should have 2 hardness and 5 hitpoints assuming that they are made from leather or hide. (This is taken from the 'Substance hardness and hitpoints' table in the PHb. The table can be found online here (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Breaking_and_Entering))
mucki 01-28-08, 01:12 PM	A man walks nonchalantly into the tavern, settling for a seat at the bar. At first glance, he seems to be a dark skinned, southerner, but hist green glowing eyes quickly betray his non-human heritage. "Hello, my name is Lucifer.", he addresses the bartender, "I have heard a lot about your fair city, foremost that a man who is not afraid of danger can test his mettle in combat here. And in time come to fame and riches. Where can I sign up?" My new character is up. I would appreciate it if somebody could give it a quick look and see if i missed something obvious. The equipment section is still a bit bland, I intend to stock up on a bit more after the first #FC, when I know better how the concept works out actually :) PS: I will need some credits later on to develop Lucifer, so I want to audit some characters. Anybody who wants an audit done ?
whitebaron 01-28-08, 01:55 PM	feel free - gwerdan, verren.. btw lucifer is double in his post. ;) at first glance: get powerstones of inertial armor instead of the bracers for the early levels, if you still have expendables free. also, CLW combined with vigor seems like a bit of overkill. if you want to go for a more efficient trip later on, improved trip might be better than weapon focus (trip). need combat expertise though... int 13 is not exactly what you've got now. starting with dex 17 would give you 3 more points to share, and you can boost it at ecl4 to 18 as well. - as a side effect, you could get rid of the dump stat charisma - given the high population of psions in coco with ego whip, this might not be that bad a deal.
Salrantol 01-28-08, 03:11 PM	I will need some credits later on to develop Lucifer, so I want to audit some characters. Anybody who wants an audit done ?You can get 4 credits for auditing Enoch the Prophet.
MindWandererB 01-28-08, 09:38 PM	Regarding Gaseous form: Now I've always just assumed at table top that this meant you lost your land speed & gained 10' fly(perfect) - but re-reading it, it looks like you actually keep your land speed but just can't run. Am I off base here?That had been my assumption, too, but I see nothing to support it. Looks like you can still walk.Do unnamed penalties stack? Example: Ray of Exhaustion, Ray of Enfeeblement.Normally, yes. This is a bad example, though, because one spell inflicts an unnamed penalty and the other causes a condition that has a penalty associated with it. So they do stack, but for a different reason. (Two different effects that caused exhaustion, like Ray of Exhaustion and Waves of Exhaustion, wouldn't stack.)
Zevox 01-29-08, 12:41 AM	That had been my assumption, too, but I see nothing to support it. Looks like you can still walk. ...and how, pray tell, do you walk without having anything solid enough to actually touch the ground with? Zevox
mucki 01-29-08, 02:46 AM	feel free - gwerdan, verren.. You can get 4 credits for auditing Enoch the Prophet. Ok, I have put them on my TODO list and will do them as I have time. Not sure if I can get all three done this weekend though. btw lucifer is double in his post. ;) Oops, copy&past mistake ... wonder how i missed that ... at first glance: get powerstones of inertial armor instead of the bracers for the early levels, if you still have expendables free. also, CLW combined with vigor seems like a bit of overkill. Ah, inertial armor is a good one. And I guess you are right on the CLW. if you want to go for a more efficient trip later on, improved trip might be better than weapon focus (trip). need combat expertise though... int 13 is not exactly what you've got now. starting with dex 17 would give you 3 more points to share, and you can boost it at ecl4 to 18 as well. - as a side effect, you could get rid of the dump stat charisma - given the high population of psions in coco with ego whip, this might not be that bad a deal. I don't have any open slots for more feats in my plan, and tripping is not the most immportant thing to do. I just have the check on the sheet, because a whip is a trip weapon.
hogarth 01-29-08, 06:43 AM	...and how, pray tell, do you walk without having anything solid enough to actually touch the ground with? The same way an elocater can, I imagine (i.e. it's magic). You might as well ask "How can you fly without anything solid enough to provide thrust and/or lift?"
Zevox 01-29-08, 08:08 AM	The same way an elocater can, I imagine (i.e. it's magic). You might as well ask "How can you fly without anything solid enough to provide thrust and/or lift?" Elocater's are walking just above the surface by telekinetic lift. They still have legs or whatever other appendage they used to move, and still have to use them to move. A mist has no such thing, and its magical motion is covered in its flying. I'd be of the opinion that since the spell does not state the caster can still walk (or climb/swim/etc) while in its new form and by its very nature it denies them the basic prerequisites for doing so in the normal way, the caster cannot use those movement modes while in that form. Zevox
CrazyArtificer 01-29-08, 08:36 AM	I believe that if an elocater is moving by telekinetic lift, it won't really matter if he has legs or not, as the legs aren't propelling him. The force moving him forward is psychic, not natural.
McJarvis 01-29-08, 08:40 AM	I believe that if an elocater is moving by telekinetic lift, it won't really matter if he has legs or not, as the legs aren't propelling him. The force moving him forward is psychic, not natural. Zevox is saying the telekinetic lift is applying normal force against the ground/elocater's legs, so the legs are effectively moving the person. While we're talking about gaseous form: what about ectoplasmic form? Ectoplasm is a bit more substantial than gaseous form, and it has the same wording that I was talking about.
CrazyArtificer 01-29-08, 09:04 AM	Zevox is saying the telekinetic lift is applying normal force against the ground/elocater's legs, so the legs are effectively moving the person. Would it matter if it had wheels or stone cubes in place of the legs? The legs are just a passive receiver imho. I do agree that the idea of a walking gaseous form sounds strange.. I should probably read the original question, but why it's so important if a gaseous thing can walk?
templer10 01-29-08, 09:08 AM	Would it matter if it had wheels or stone cubes in place of the legs? The legs are just a passive receiver imho. I do agree that the idea of a walking gaseous form sounds strange.. I should probably read the original question, but why it's so important if a gaseous thing can walk? The question wasnt really about walkin per se- But wheter or not he can keep his land speed WHILE walking (rather then the rather slow fly speed).
McJarvis 01-29-08, 09:10 AM	but why it's so important if a gaseous thing can walk? Well, I could run down the Pro's and Con's of the spell if you'd like. Pros Immune to Touchsight Can fit into small things like pipes in the sewers//through grates Get to fly(though very slowly) DR 10/magic. [Which is practically not a pro at all at the level you get this spell at] Cons Can't cast spells unless they are silenced, stilled, and eschewed of materials. [this is the big one] Can't go underwater. Will be blown away by wind. If you add "lose your natural forms of movement" to the cons the spell becomes completely worthless in CoCo. As is, it still is pretty worthless.
CrazyArtificer 01-29-08, 09:21 AM	Thanks both for the answer. I think that the new fly speed should remove entirely the land speed. GASEOUS FORM Some creatures have the supernatural or spell-like ability to take the form of a cloud of vapor or gas. Creatures in gaseous form can’t run but can fly. A gaseous creature can move about and do the things that a cloud of gas can conceivably do, such as flow through the crack under a door. It can’t, however, pass through solid matter. Gaseous creatures can’t attack physically or cast spells with verbal, somatic, material, or focus components. They lose their supernatural abilities (except for the supernatural ability to assume gaseous form, of course). Creatures in gaseous form have damage reduction 10/magic. Spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities affect them normally. Creatures in gaseous form lose all benefit of material armor (including natural armor), though size, Dexterity, deflection bonuses, and armor bonuses from force armor still apply. Gaseous creatures do not need to breathe and are immune to attacks involving breathing (troglodyte stench, poison gas, and the like). Gaseous creatures can’t enter water or other liquid. They are not ethereal or incorporeal. They are affected by winds or other forms of moving air to the extent that the wind pushes them in the direction the wind is moving. However, even the strongest wind can’t disperse or damage a creature in gaseous form. Discerning a creature in gaseous form from natural mist requires a DC 15 Spot check. Creatures in gaseous form attempting to hide in an area with mist, smoke, or other gas gain a +20 bonus. A cloud of gas can't walk, so a creature in this form shouldn't be
McJarvis 01-29-08, 09:27 AM	A cloud of gas can't walk, so a creature in this form shouldn't be You're ignoring the second part of that sentance- it's referring to what a cloud can fit into, not what it can actually do. If you use straight-ticket "well if a gas cloud can't do it..." logic, you couldn't cast spells that are stilled/silenced/eschewed because gas clouds can't do that ;) Or howabout use telepathy?(something not mentioned by the spell) Gas Clouds can't do that either. edit- This didn't work the last time I did it, but I might as well point it out. This is the converse error of logic. If I said "Michael Jordan can do all the basketball tricks that I can do", this would not imply that the statement "I can do all the basketball tricks Michael Jordan can do". Similary, the inverse is not necessarily true- "Michael Jordan can not do the basketball tricks that I can not do". In the same way, saying the gaseous creature can move about//do things in the same way a gas cloud can doesn't mean the gaseous creature can only move about//do things in the way a gas cloud can do.
hogarth 01-29-08, 09:29 AM	I'd be of the opinion that since the spell does not state the caster can still walk (or climb/swim/etc) while in its new form and by its very nature it denies them the basic prerequisites for doing so in the normal way, the caster cannot use those movement modes while in that form. I think the problem here is that the spell Gaseous Form really doesn't make you very much like a gas. All it really gives you is: DR 10/magic immunity to poison/critical hits inability to attack or use items or supernatural abilities ability to pass through cracks a fly speed (but you can't run) That's it. You're actually more like a flying ooze than an incorporeal creature. Note, for instance, that you're not explicitly immune to being bull rushed or grappled.
McJarvis 01-29-08, 09:38 AM	That's it. You're actually more like a flying ooze than an incorporeal creature. Note, for instance, that you're not explicitly immune to being bull rushed or grappled. Hm. That's a good point- I'll recant my earlier statement about it making you immune to touchsight. That was just another assumption on my part.
templer10 01-29-08, 09:39 AM	Question - If i have a char in charcter level 5, short a few hundrer XP to level 6 and intending to take leadership at level 6, can he doe the MQ to get the cohort at level 5 since the XP reward gets him to level 6?
CrazyArtificer 01-29-08, 09:58 AM	That's it. You're actually more like a flying ooze than an incorporeal creature. Note, for instance, that you're not explicitly immune to being bull rushed or grappled. The subject and all its gear become insubstantial, misty, and translucent. Its material armor (including natural armor) becomes worthless, though its size, Dexterity, deflection bonuses, and armor bonuses from force effects still apply. The subject gains damage reduction 10/magic and becomes immune to poison and critical hits. It can’t attack or cast spells with verbal, somatic, material, or focus components while in gaseous form. (This does not rule out the use of certain spells that the subject may have prepared using the feats Silent Spell, Still Spell, and Eschew Materials.) The subject also loses supernatural abilities while in gaseous form. If it has a touch spell ready to use, that spell is discharged harmlessly when the gaseous form spell takes effect Still, I have to complain. Being insubstantial means they can't be grappled for example. Also, the fact that you can't cast spell with somatic components seems to imply that your movements are not soo coordinated and linear like they are when corporeal. I don't think that was an example of converse error, because the wording seems to imply that the gaseous creature can move about just in that way. (I assume move about is the same than moving around.. feel free to tell me it's not)
McJarvis 01-29-08, 10:11 AM	@CA: I think the problem is that if you start adding things to the spell that make sense, we'd need to re-write the spell entirely. Ie- we'd have to add in that you can't be grappled/pinned, that it evades touchsight, that you lose your normal modes of movement, that you get a +? bonus to hide because you're translucent, that you get 20% concealment for being translucent, that.... See? There's a hoarde of things that it seems to imply- but it only gives us a short list. Normally there would be a DM to mitigate- in CoCo, we take spells/powers as-is. [Or at least _I_ think we should since we'll get bogged down with house-rules if we try to fix every spell/power ala matter agitation]
hogarth 01-29-08, 10:12 AM	Still, I have to complain. Being insubstantial means they can't be grappled for example. Actually, I agree; I think that the ability to move through small cracks would prevent them from being grappled. But I think you're reading too much into the word "insubstantial". The spell Phantom Steed says the steed has "insubstantial hooves", but it can walk just fine (more than just fine!). Gaseous Form is specifically different from incorporeality; you're substantial enough that you don't get the blanket immunity to nonmagical attacks, for instance.
Erithmu 01-29-08, 10:47 AM	Question - If i have a char in charcter level 5, short a few hundrer XP to level 6 and intending to take leadership at level 6, can he doe the MQ to get the cohort at level 5 since the XP reward gets him to level 6? Yes, As long as you will be lvl 6 after the MQ
Abyssal Stalker 01-29-08, 11:31 AM	Actually, I agree; I think that the ability to move through small cracks would prevent them from being grappled. But I think you're reading too much into the word "insubstantial". The spell Phantom Steed says the steed has "insubstantial hooves", but it can walk just fine (more than just fine!). Gaseous Form is specifically different from incorporeality; you're substantial enough that you don't get the blanket immunity to nonmagical attacks, for instance. Actually, I a long time ago asked if gaseous form made you immune to grapple. It was in one of the tavern threads. I talked about it with TM (I think) and we bpth agreed that it made sense and found something that supports it in the rules. Spectres, wraiths, and a few other creatures lack physical bodies. Such creatures are insubstantial and can’t be touched by nonmagical matter or energy. Likewise, they cannot manipulate objects or exert physical force on objects. This says quite clearly that you can't touch something that is insubstantial and thus can't grapple it. What comes to the fly speed, I have to ask: What if a creature with a fly speed turns into gaseous form, does it lose it's original fly speed? Nothign says it does...
McJarvis 01-29-08, 11:36 AM	This says quite clearly that you can't touch something that is insubstantial and thus can't grapple it. According to what you quoted, the figure in gaseous form would also have an immunity to non-magical matter- what is the DR10/magic for then?
templer10 01-29-08, 12:26 PM	Myself and Hogarth want to go on a Miniquest to gain Mercifyll kiler's leadership Cohort this week - any volunteers to pitlod? ECL 7 Since we only after the MQ we will level to ECL 8 (each will be at level 6).
Sjiggie 01-29-08, 12:36 PM	I can do the miniquest if you want. Just give me a basic idea of what you want to do and who your cohort is. -Sjiggie
Hirumajoe 01-29-08, 12:55 PM	I think I've got enough free time this week and the next that I can get Valen on a mini-quest. (Given my track record lately, I don't think I'll be able to keep up with a full quest-which was my original thought). So looking for a mini-Quest lord for either this week or next week. The concept being looking for information on the current status of his parents (last seen the day of a Drow raid on his home village and him being dragged off into the underdark. After being saved and returning to his Village he found it empty). He could find them alive and well, find out their dead, find they're slaves in the Underdark directly beneath Gladius, or find out they're in another castle... Thanks, Hirumajoe
CrazyArtificer 01-29-08, 02:30 PM	I'm finally over with my exams, so I can Questlord for everyone who needs a QL.
MindWandererB 01-29-08, 03:33 PM	Re: Gaseous Form: As McJ points out, spells state what makes being under the spell's effect different from the norm. The effect says you can't run--it doesn't say you can't walk. It doesn't say you can walk, but that's not required. Mage Armor doesn't say you can walk, either. I agree that it doesn't necessarily make sense, and as a house rule the point is certainly debatable. But as it makes no mention of any movement restriction other than running, supernatural modes of movement, the ability to enter water (and thus, presumably, swim), the ability to manipulate objects (and thus, usually, burrow) then the subject can do anything else. You can climb, jump (without a running start), or fly (Ex only). You can even burrow xorn-style (xorn don't have to manipulate the earth to use this).
Zevox 01-29-08, 09:06 PM	Open challenge: to anyone with an ECL 10 character interested in a match, I'm activating Arden, who just reached that level, this coming week. I figured I'd announce it since no one else at that level is set to ready presently and I know some won't do so without a foe to avoid monster fights. I'll take a monster if nobody is interested, but if anyone is, so much the better. Zevox
lonewolf 01-29-08, 09:13 PM	I was waiting for an enemy at ECL10 to activate Therador for some time now. :fight!:
Zevox 01-29-08, 09:35 PM	I was waiting for an enemy at ECL10 to activate Therador for some time now. :fight!: Cool - looks like a good foe. Though I fear the map will play a major role in the fight. Noticed a bit of a violation on him while I was looking him over though - check the prison for that. Zevox
Rauul 01-29-08, 09:40 PM	Cool - looks like a good foe. Though I fear the map will play a major role in the fight. Noticed a bit of a violation on him while I was looking him over though - check the prison for that. Zevox Oh thats sneaky... make him break out of prison before the fight.. LOL.. Sorry couldn't help it.. Will be a fight i will be reading tho..
TelinArtho 01-29-08, 10:51 PM	I concur strongly. Although I hope they fixed the problem that emanations from a creature have (since in 3e you have to pick a corner for it to start from). I also forgot to mention earlier: I'm going to be out of town from this coming Wednesday through Sunday. I should be able to finish updating everything (that isn't late) in time for the pairings, and I'll be able to to updates resulting from that week's pairings, but I won't be able to do the pairings themselves. I thought I saw this post - but wasn't sure I had responded to it. Who set up the pairings thing that could work off of a separate post? I don't remember the link - and I'll need it to do pairings for MWB. I'm not sure on my schedule tomorrow (home again from work - but being home is often busier than being at work...), but I'd say be patient with the time frame...
MindWandererB 01-30-08, 01:07 AM	It works the same way--just copy the link to the crawler/pairer, and edit it manually so that it points to a different post number. And that's it for me. Everything's as updated as I can get it right now; anything else that needs to be done, send it to Telin. Vaya con Dios, dudes.
whitebaron 01-30-08, 01:34 AM	http://joeh.org/~wb/coco/spider.php?roster=5179872&lords=1 http://joeh.org/~wb/coco/pairer.php?roster=5179872&lords=1 yw.
templer10 01-30-08, 01:36 AM	I was waiting for an enemy at ECL10 to activate Therador for some time now. :fight!: If you and zevox want - you can team up in an inter league challange VS elrick, Random Map.
lonewolf 01-30-08, 04:10 AM	If you and zevox want - you can team up in an inter league challange VS elrick, Random Map. If you wanna activate Elrick, I have activated Kitty fresh of the campaign. :D
templer10 01-30-08, 04:46 AM	If you wanna activate Elrick, I have activated Kitty fresh of the campaign. :D Ill think about it - Oddly enough Nigel is more a threat to elrick then kitty, who can't really do much to elrick other then Magic missile. on the other hand, Kitty's SR make it rather a large problem for elrick to actually do anything to kitty so that wand of MM might become a bigger factor then it would normally play (althrough it would be an expensive win for you). EDIT - ill take you up on that offer, Ill edit elrick as ready later today.
Rauul 01-30-08, 08:25 AM	If you wanna activate Elrick, I have activated Kitty fresh of the campaign. :D u just wanna play with your new toys!!!
Zevox 01-30-08, 09:17 AM	u just wanna play with your new toys!!! Who wouldn't? :) Zevox
dulsi 01-30-08, 09:26 AM	If I wanted a pearl of power like magic item that works for sorcerers, who I have to pay the custom item credit cost for each one? Or could I pay the credits and craft two of them? If I pay the credits only once do I need to pay for each spell level or once to make any levels? Random unrelated question: Can you grapple with an AoO?
TelinArtho 01-30-08, 09:39 AM	If I wanted a pearl of power like magic item that works for sorcerers, who I have to pay the custom item credit cost for each one? Or could I pay the credits and craft two of them? If I pay the credits only once do I need to pay for each spell level or once to make any levels? Random unrelated question: Can you grapple with an AoO? Not sure that we could approve an item like a pearl for a sorcerer. If it were approved, it would be on a per item basis and 15 credits a piece though. You can grapple with an AoO as long as you threaten your opponent. The only thing I don't seem to remember is if you also need to threaten your opponent with your unarmed strike or not - but I don't think you do.
templer10 01-30-08, 09:49 AM	Not sure that we could approve an item like a pearl for a sorcerer. If it were approved, it would be on a per item basis and 15 credits a piece though. there is An item like that in a non core Book btw (magic item compendium i think) you can get the prices from there. on another note - since all that such an item would do is give you extra slots, at least if it's a lower level Slot (level 1 or 2) a ring of wizardry is significantly better (if you can fork over the cash) Since you wouldn't need a credit cost and for a sorcerers it's much better overall.
McJarvis 01-30-08, 10:17 AM	there is An item like that in a non core Book btw (magic item compendium i think) you can get the prices from there. I believe we actively don't use non-core sources for prices on magic items. I'd really hate to see an antimagic torc in CoCo
Rauul 01-30-08, 10:36 AM	I believe we actively don't use non-core sources for prices on magic items. I'd really hate to see an antimagic torc in CoCo After the fits we had with the Antimagic Staff... i would agree
dulsi 01-30-08, 10:53 AM	Not sure that we could approve an item like a pearl for a sorcerer. If it were approved, it would be on a per item basis and 15 credits a piece though. Not sure it would be approved? Why? Seems to me recalling a spell for a prepared spell caster is more powerful than getting one spell level back for a spontaneous caster. (Doesn't really matter since a per item basis for credit cost makes it too expensive anyway.)
lonewolf 01-31-08, 12:38 PM	If a party goes on a miniquest, can the characters in the party have different goals for that miniquest such as one character qualifying for a PrC and one character gaining allies?
TelinArtho 01-31-08, 01:24 PM	I don't see any issue with that (especially if the party itself is restricted to one quest per level like normal characters).
McJarvis 01-31-08, 03:56 PM	Rules check: Can an arcane caster use divine spell-trigger items so long as the spell is on his (arcane) spell-list? Example: Resist Energy wand crafted by ranger, used by wizard.
lonewolf 01-31-08, 04:01 PM	Yes. There are no arcane wands and no divine wands. Only scrolls are diffenrent that way. Another example that works is a wand of CLW created by a cleric and used by a bard.
whitebaron 01-31-08, 04:19 PM	and for scrolls, there's something similar as there are only divine or arcane scrolls , not bard or wizard scrolls, it should be possible to cast e.g. hideous laughter as lvl 1 wizard, from a bard CL 2 scroll. since the CL is 2, there is no failure chance in the CL-check. same goes for other spells, which are accessible to bards later than wizards...
templer10 01-31-08, 05:17 PM	Question - If you hit someone with Say 10 Str with a Ray of enfeeblment, then with a ray of exhustion - can you drop him to STR 0? the Ray of enfeeblment Cause STR damage But can't Drop the target to below 1 Str, ray of exhustion Cause Str Penalty, (-6) So they Do stack, i think that if you do the ray of enfeeblment first, then the ray of exhustion you can drop the target to STR 0, opinions? p.s - remmber that while ROenfeeblment Cant reduce STR below 1, it does Cause STR damage so there is less actual STR for the penalty to be applied 2.
TelinArtho 01-31-08, 05:29 PM	Ray of Enfeeblement is a penalty - not damage. No the combination cannot drop someone below 1 Str.
lonewolf 01-31-08, 05:34 PM	Ray of Enfeeblement Necromancy Level: Sor/Wiz 1 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Effect: Ray Duration: 1 min./level Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: Yes A coruscating ray springs from your hand. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to strike a target. The subject takes a penalty to Strength equal to 1d6+1 per two caster levels (maximum 1d6+5). The subject’s Strength score cannot drop below 1. This spell has two effects: The subject takes a strength penalty and its Strength cannot drop below 1 through any means. Even if its original Strength was only 1 and it takes some Strength damage from another source, it is protected as long as Ray of Enfeeblement is affecting it. While I agree that this makes not much sense, this is how the rules work.
TelinArtho 01-31-08, 07:44 PM	@Sauro/MWB - when another elder approves items in the blackmarket - does Sauro still send the notice to pitlords or does the stand-in elder do so?
SauroGrenom 01-31-08, 08:40 PM	@Sauro/MWB - when another elder approves items in the blackmarket - does Sauro still send the notice to pitlords or does the stand-in elder do so? I'll send the notice to pitlords, but note that there was a mistake. Both Rith and I thought that it took credits to start a team, but that appears to be wrong. It only takes credits to break up a team. So the credit costs I report to pitlords will take that into account if you haven't already edited the approval post. The idea that a greatsword is a different "slot" than a longsword is a bit nuts... but that's Cat sometimes.
dulsi 01-31-08, 11:53 PM	How disappointing a Treant with the plant domain or the plant control feat would not be able to control animated trees until 7th level cleric or 7th level caster. Figured you could boost the Treant's ability to control only 2 animated trees. I am curious as to what an uncontrolled animated tree would do. No, I don't have the credits to activate a Treant but I keep wanting to create a plant oriented character. I wondered if playing a plant is possible but Shambling Mound and Treant are a bit high for using. (Shambling Mound CR 6, HD 8, LA +6. Treant CR8, HD 7, LA +5. Higher CR but lower LA just seems odd.)
Durzulgor 02-01-08, 03:23 AM	Just so you know, the foe isn't flat-footed against the second attack, because Kracknol is visible, having already attacked. So it's just a normal AC above 26. I'll run the next round in the morning. I just noticed this in the seperate thread-fight that is currently running and wanted to ask: Aren't you considered flatfooted until your come up in the initiative order after the guy you're considered flatfooted against?
mucki 02-01-08, 03:35 AM	Actually, I think you are referring to this: At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. That is however specifically regarding the start of a battle. Actually neither the section about flatfooted under initiative, not the special status section tells anything about being flatfooted afterwards and when it ends. If you are flat-footed due to another effect (e.g. because you are climbing) then I think it ends immediately when that effect ends (whenever that is).
mucki 02-01-08, 03:59 AM	From Prison: Furthermore i believe his grapple damage is incorrect. Armor spikes do not augment unarmed strike damage when used in a grapple. They replace unarmed strike damage. The SRD seems to indicate that in fact it does add: Armor Spikes: You can have spikes added to your armor, which allow you to deal extra piercing damage (see Table: Weapons) on a successful grapple attack. Spiked Armor: You can outfit your armor with spikes, which can deal damage in a grapple or as a separate attack. See Armor for details. The grapple section does not mention armor spikes However, since you challenged it, I dug a bit deeper and found that you are indeed correct, according to the FAQ: When grappling, you can damage your foe with your spikes by making a regular grapple check (opposed by your foe’s check). If you succeed, you deal piercing damage to your foe (see Table 7–5 in the Player’s Handbook) rather than the unarmed strike damage you’d normally deal when damaging your foe with a grapple check. RotG doesn't touch this in their coverage of grapple, so it seems clear (though hard to find) that it does not stack.
Durzulgor 02-01-08, 04:22 AM	Is there anything that explains the city-map a little more detailed than in the "Battlefields" (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=5179891#post5179891) post? I find it quite difficult to make out where f.ex. the scaffolds are supposed to be and what exactly is supposed to be a building? Are those little brown things the scaffolds? Are the grey L-shaped forms buildings?
whitebaron 02-01-08, 04:30 AM	I find it quite difficult to make out where f.ex. the scaffolds are supposed to be and what exactly is supposed to be a building? Are those little brown things the scaffolds? Are the grey L-shaped forms buildings? in my reading, the scaffolds are the little brown things next to your starting position. everything thats neither street-grey nor green is a building. that much is sure. :) @mucki: this is one of many cases, where the faq(or rotg) directly contradicts raw. i hope those things will get better in 4e.
mucki 02-01-08, 04:53 AM	Well, i would not go so far as saying "contradicts". I mean the only word regarding this in the RAW is the "extra" in the armor section. And I can see how this is meant in the way "spikes dmg > unarmed dmg". Tbh, what they should do (imho) is to include such FAQ entries in the SRD and update the SRD documents accordingly over time. While it won't help the paper products (except reprints) it would making it much easier if there existed a single, up-to-date source of all rules.
Salrantol 02-01-08, 07:05 AM	I just noticed this in the seperate thread-fight that is currently running and wanted to ask: Aren't you considered flatfooted until your come up in the initiative order after the guy you're considered flatfooted against?If the monster in question had not yet acted, you would be correct, but the monster had acted twice, including both seeing and scenting the character in question, so would not be flat-footed once the character became visible.
TelinArtho 02-01-08, 10:38 AM	And if there is further question about the armor spikes issue - I refer you to the Court Rulings: Q: How do Armor Spikes work in grapples? A: As per the 3.5 FAQ, you may either inflict normal damage with them (in place of unarmed damage) using a grapple check (the "Damage Your Opponent" grapple option), or by using them as a light weapon and rolling an attack roll with a -4 penalty (the "Attack Your Opponent" grapple option).
dulsi 02-01-08, 12:03 PM	If character A does an action that provokes and AoO and character B responds with an action that provokes and AoO, does character A get an AoO? I would assume yes but I'm not sure.
CrazyArtificer 02-01-08, 12:05 PM	If character A does an action that provokes and AoO and character B responds with an action that provokes and AoO, does character A get an AoO? I would assume yes but I'm not sure. IIRC, you won't provoke an AoO while making your own AoO.
whitebaron 02-01-08, 12:08 PM	IIRC, you won't provoke an AoO while making your own AoO. that's not true. since it says nowhere, that an AoO does not provoke AoOs, it's possible. but: there is always the maximum limit of AoOs one can have. so Action->AoO->AoO is fine, Action->AoO->AoO->AoO is only fine with combat reflexes. also note that this counts for your AoO for the whole following round until the start of your next round.
CrazyArtificer 02-01-08, 12:15 PM	that's not true. since it says nowhere, that an AoO does not provoke AoOs, it's possible. but: there is always the maximum limit of AoOs one can have. I remember having read something about that.. It simply seems I can't find it right now.
MindWandererB 02-01-08, 12:17 PM	that's not true. since it says nowhere, that an AoO does not provoke AoOs, it's possible. but: there is always the maximum limit of AoOs one can have. so Action->AoO->AoO is fine, Action->AoO->AoO->AoO is only fine with combat reflexes. also note that this counts for your AoO for the whole following round until the start of your next round. This kind of AoO-chaining is described in detail in the FAQ.
whitebaron 02-01-08, 12:21 PM	for ease of use, the FAQ entry: Is it possible for an attack of opportunity to provoke an attack of opportunity? For example, a fighter attempts to trip a cleric. The cleric chooses to make a sunder attack against the fighter’s weapon as his attack of opportunity. Does the sunder attack then provoke an attack of opportunity from the fighter? Yes. An attack of opportunity is adjudicated just like any other attack, and it is subject to the same rules (including provoking additional attacks of opportunity). This can lead to odd situations where as the reason for the original action no longer exists. If this starts to confuse you, just remember that D&D combat is an abstract representation of battle, and not necessarily a precise second-by-second representation of every maneuver. Even the “sequential” nature of D&D combat—I make my attacks, then you make your attacks, then I make my attacks, and so forth—is an artificial creation used to keep combat moving quickly. Using the example you provide, the fighter is indeed allowed to make an attack of opportunity against the cleric. (This attack could, in turn, provoke yet another attack of opportunity from the cleric, but the cleric could make such an attack only if he were allowed more than one attack of opportunity in a single round.) These attacks are performed in a “Last In, First Out” sequence. The last attack of opportunity declared is the first one resolved, with the remaining attacks resolved in reverse order of their declaration, assuming the character can still make the attack. If the fighter drops the cleric with his attack of opportunity, the rest of the attacks in the sequence—including the cleric’s attack of opportunity and the fighter’s original trip attack—do not occur. The actions are still “spent,” however— the fighter doesn’t get to use that original attack on some other target (although if he has other attacks remaining he may take them as normal).
CrazyArtificer 02-01-08, 12:24 PM	Ah, I guess I'll have something to show to my DM next session..
whitebaron 02-01-08, 01:35 PM	it's nice to see that our team, Wiener Wadlbeisser sparked some other teams into existence. Though, seeing something like Thiels Royal Retainers, i'm not so sure whether this is a good move. Let's see. one party - currently 4 characters 2 familiars 1 special mount. against the average 2 characters makes 9 different actions per round. pitlords-asylum, here i come. seems like i have to request cohort-less fights in the future. because this is not even worth it for 10° - i'd rather do 20 ECL3s than such a fight. @rith: did you really think ww vs. teds was so much fun to pitlord? second comment on that: if they are allowed to bring 4 characters to any fight, the only 4 characters per fight rule should fall. WW wants to be allowed to participate in FFAs etc, if a team like this makes sense.
mucki 02-01-08, 03:06 PM	Now I have a question about kracknol's separate thread fight ... Don't you need at least 1 pp left to get a psionic focus ?
Salrantol 02-01-08, 03:16 PM	Yes, he does.
mucki 02-01-08, 03:19 PM	hmm, too bad ... thought there might be a secret way around it ;-)
templer10 02-01-08, 03:24 PM	Could someone remind me - when you summon an earth elemental in the sewers and they are mostly in the ground - They gain cover or total cover? and can they attack in that state? second question - and it's a stupid one Since i want to make sure - if you have antilife shell - it means you need 15 or 10 reach to get at you?
whitebaron 02-01-08, 03:31 PM	Could someone remind me - when you summon an earth elemental in the sewers and they are mostly in the ground - They gain cover or total cover? and can they attack in that state? you can't be "mostly" in the ground. as dnd is square (or cube) based, you're either in or out. if they are in, the same as with incorporeality should apply - 50% concealment for the opponent it tries to strike. total cover for the elemental while its not striking. cover while it's attacking.
SauroGrenom 02-01-08, 03:36 PM	it's nice to see that our team, Wiener Wadlbeisser sparked some other teams into existence. Though, seeing something like Thiels Royal Retainers, i'm not so sure whether this is a good move. Let's see. one party - currently 4 characters 2 familiars 1 special mount. against the average 2 characters makes 9 different actions per round. pitlords-asylum, here i come. seems like i have to request cohort-less fights in the future. because this is not even worth it for 10° - i'd rather do 20 ECL3s than such a fight. @rith: did you really think ww vs. teds was so much fun to pitlord? second comment on that: if they are allowed to bring 4 characters to any fight, the only 4 characters per fight rule should fall. WW wants to be allowed to participate in FFAs etc, if a team like this makes sense. It's not so bad as you make it out to be... The paladin rides his special mount, so those guys basically work as a single character. The cleric cohort, is a support character for the most part. His ability to attack is rather limited to those situations where someone comes after him. The wizard isn't expected to have a familiar, since his leadership score will go down if that happens. The sorcerer may have a familiar, but the toad or raven or whatever isn't expected to be a contributor to battles at ECL8. So most times it can be ignored by the pitlord. Basically there are 4 independent units on the field that you need to keep track of. Easier than a monster fight with 4 monsters and 1 PC... At least the pitlord doesn't need to stat all the monsters.
TelinArtho 02-01-08, 03:43 PM	Could someone remind me - when you summon an earth elemental in the sewers and they are mostly in the ground - They gain cover or total cover? and can they attack in that state? second question - and it's a stupid one Since i want to make sure - if you have antilife shell - it means you need 15 or 10 reach to get at you? If the earth elemental is medium or smaller - then it is either completely in the ground or not - see the response already given. For a large or larger creature - being half-in the ground is an option and would afford cover and yes - they can attack you in that state. For your second question - chart it out and it should be easy to see: http://www.hwx.it/coco/coco.php;v=1;map=arena;a=Name,M,17,35;b= Name,M,17,38;n=Effect,17,35,2 Looks to me that blue needs a 15ft reach to hit red.
hogarth 02-01-08, 03:44 PM	it's nice to see that our team, Wiener Wadlbeisser sparked some other teams into existence. Though, seeing something like Thiels Royal Retainers, i'm not so sure whether this is a good move. Let's see. one party - currently 4 characters 2 familiars 1 special mount. Pfft! That's nothing! Reginald Molehusband had a fight with: himself his cohort his cohort's familiar his cohort's psicrystal his follower his follower's psicrystal his bronze griffon ...and a partridge in a pear tree. Who needs a stinkin' team? :D
TelinArtho 02-01-08, 03:49 PM	Pfft! That's nothing... Kraegin's current fight will involve: Kraegin Toronado (large air elemental) A chain devil 2 bearded devils A huge fiendish centipede 3 Fiendish Giant Wasps A spiritual weapon And that's only because I went light on his summons...
templer10 02-01-08, 04:02 PM	Pfft! That's nothing... Kraegin's current fight will involve: Kraegin Toronado (large air elemental) A chain devil 2 bearded devils A huge fiendish centipede 3 Fiendish Giant Wasps A spiritual weapon And that's only because I went light on his summons... Actually Elrick beats Both of You on his lonesome - His standart is: Druid Animal companion handle animal Ally Add summons for flavor - i think i once Did 10 or so in the same fight.
lonewolf 02-01-08, 06:12 PM	If youre holding the charge on a touch spell like shocking grasp, can you do a full attack with it(assuming you miss with the first attack)?
Erithmu 02-01-08, 07:03 PM	@Team issue thing: I find it fun to deal with more things. Granted the first few rounds go slow, but I was able to blow through the buff cycles of both parties rather quick. The initial engagement is normally the hardest, as you have a minimum of 3 different situations. But I kinda like the ability for fights to have multiple momentum swings it makes them much more interesting. The Tactics are kinda a hard part as you normally have to do more interpretation than you do with a 1v1. I dunno, part of me just likes the strategy in the game more than the game itself, call me a little screwy. That does mean however that someone else will have to run that fight if I'm in it.
Hirumajoe 02-01-08, 07:26 PM	http://www.hwx.it/coco/coco.php;v=1;map=arena;a=Name,M,17,35;b= Name,M,17,38;n=Effect,17,35,2 Looks to me that blue needs a 15ft reach to hit red. Actually, looks like you need 15ft *or* 10ft to hit red, depending on which corner it is... Imagine two opponents fighting one in the middle with Anti-life shell. Hmm... Does the caster get to choose which corner it is coming from each round or does it remain fixed relative to their square? Question related to Earth Elemental summon, a hit from a Suppression weapon which beats the caster's level (say DC 22 with 1d20+13) dispels it, right?
templer10 02-01-08, 07:56 PM	Actually, looks like you need 15ft *or* 10ft to hit red, depending on which corner it is... Imagine two opponents fighting one in the middle with Anti-life shell. Hmm... Does the caster get to choose which corner it is coming from each round or does it remain fixed relative to their square? Question related to Earth Elemental summon, a hit from a Suppression weapon which beats the caster's level (say DC 22 with 1d20+13) dispels it, right? I think a summoned creature does go away, But on the other hand If i understand it right - since you can't be "between" squares -it is always 15 feet. An anti life shell gives 10 feet in ALL directions that you can't approach, since you can't stand in 10 feet - you have to stand at 15 away. note that map is wrong - the map should show the defended person in the middle with the circle exacly 10 feet around him in all directions - if you want to be exact - take 10 feet from the point connecting all 4 nearby squeres - there's where he stands in regards for that spell. Essentially think about it like this - if you have natural reach of 10 it means you are standing with only 1 square gap between you and the target - i.e. - you are whitin 10 feet from him - that is impossible no matter how you draw the map, i.e. impossible.
Hirumajoe 02-01-08, 08:19 PM	This is the map I'm thinking of. http://www.hwx.it/coco/coco.php;v=1;map=arena;a=Name,M,30,48;b= Name,M,30,50;c=Name,M,31,49;d=Name,M,30, 45;e=Name,L,27,46;n=Effect,30,47,2;style =s Pink needs 15' reach, blue need 10' reach and green only needs 5' reach apparently. Brown also needs only 10' reach because of the wierd rules associated with 10' reach (i.e. 2 diagonals worth). I've used an area of effect 2 and selected the square display option rather than circle (just above the generate button on the battle map maker). (Note 10' radius circle should have an area of roughly 314 square feet, the 12 25' area squares we have here is 300 square feet, just about right). It in fact looks like on the correct diagonal a character can reach you with a 5' reach... Also, remember, 10' reach lets you reach 15 feet on the diagonal because of the wierd reach rules. In the sewers its probably not going to be an issue against a single opponent, but certainly on a more open map, its seems like an opponent could walk around the shell to the closest point and attack (assuming you're not allowed to change the emanation point when its not your turn). Edit: Remember the "snap to grid" nature of D&D magic spells. While its says 10' radius, its always measured from a single point at the corner of a square. So one side of a medium creature is always 5' closer to an edge than the other.
TelinArtho 02-01-08, 08:31 PM	The effect is beneficial to the caster though - so the caster gets to choose which corner of his square each round - so the pitlord should choose in that fashion. If the caster does happen to have two opponents on opposite sides - it is indeed one with a 15ft reach and one with 10ft reach.
Hirumajoe 02-01-08, 08:37 PM	Fair enough. I suppose it makes sense the caster would be turning with the guy trying to get around him on their turn. :) Although, I'll be amused if Elrick accidentally forces an Antilife shell up against a living creature he failed to see and has it dispelled that way. Assuming he casts it and it doesn't get dispelled by other means.
Rauul 02-01-08, 09:35 PM	Actually Elrick beats Both of You on his lonesome - His standart is: Druid Animal companion handle animal Ally Add summons for flavor - i think i once Did 10 or so in the same fight. i ran one where you did 9... ran one of niqils with his Vermin Druid that was hell to run tho..
tunagolem 02-02-08, 04:39 PM	I have a new PC (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14992044&postcount=1296). Any advice?
lonewolf 02-02-08, 05:59 PM	Not CoCo related: Anyone got any ideas on a good monster for a random encounter for a group traveling on a ship over open sea around CR11-13? I dont really want to get into the "Sea monster" category to avoid the messy underwater fight, and I want something that really feels like a random encounter with no devious plan behind(which rules out dragons). I also dont have the time to stat out enough advanced Sahuagins or something to bump them to the appropriate CR(game is tomorrow). My best idea at the moment are a couple of advanced Wyverns, but Im not really sold. Anyone?
hogarth 02-02-08, 06:18 PM	How about some ghosts? (Victims of a shipwreck or something like that.) Not CoCo related: Anyone got any ideas on a good monster for a random encounter for a group traveling on a ship over open sea around CR11-13? I dont really want to get into the "Sea monster" category to avoid the messy underwater fight, and I want something that really feels like a random encounter with no devious plan behind(which rules out dragons). I also dont have the time to stat out enough advanced Sahuagins or something to bump them to the appropriate CR(game is tomorrow). My best idea at the moment are a couple of advanced Wyverns, but Im not really sold. Anyone?
TelinArtho 02-02-08, 06:45 PM	Not CoCo related: Anyone got any ideas on a good monster for a random encounter for a group traveling on a ship over open sea around CR11-13? I dont really want to get into the "Sea monster" category to avoid the messy underwater fight, and I want something that really feels like a random encounter with no devious plan behind(which rules out dragons). I also dont have the time to stat out enough advanced Sahuagins or something to bump them to the appropriate CR(game is tomorrow). My best idea at the moment are a couple of advanced Wyverns, but Im not really sold. Anyone? That is precisely what the Aquan Retribution was designed for! Only EL10 - but it wouldn't be too tough to add in a few sahaugin lackeys or an elasmosaurus or something similar...
McJarvis 02-02-08, 06:50 PM	I'm a pretty fan of the "hazardous cargo got loose" random encounter. It scales well with CR since virtually any monster will do.
lonewolf 02-02-08, 07:26 PM	That is precisely what the Aquan Retribution was designed for! Only EL10 - but it wouldn't be too tough to add in a few sahaugin lackeys or an elasmosaurus or something similar... Looks great! :) I will modify it a bit to bump the challenge up a bit, but I do like those sahuagins!
TelinArtho 02-02-08, 08:01 PM	Glad to hear that you like them. Do me a favor and send me some notes on how you adjusted them and how you felt they were as a challenge. The more information I have about them - the better. As it is - they were developed in a vaccuum - so they have not been tested in a real environment.
lonewolf 02-02-08, 08:24 PM	Glad to hear that you like them. Do me a favor and send me some notes on how you adjusted them and how you felt they were as a challenge. The more information I have about them - the better. As it is - they were developed in a vaccuum - so they have not been tested in a real environment. Mainly, I am just adjusting them to the multitude of house rules the game has, which affects many basic things(stat generation, saves, AC, ...). But I also want to make my time running the fight easier and decided to drop the wizard and go with 4 identical rogues and the halfdragon fighter as leader(giving him a second fighter level). So the 2 pairs of rogues can use each other for flanking and thus sneak attacking. I also dropped the melee weapons for the rogues since the Talons hit better and do only marginally less damage. Finally I modified the Halfdragons Feats to include some other feats, including Combat Reflexes, Standstill and Dragonbreath(noncore and allows that his breath weapon can be used every 1d4 rounds instead of once/day). CR should be around 12 now if I did the math in my head correctly. I´ll tell you tomorrow how it went.
whitebaron 02-03-08, 07:49 AM	short question: quest opponents do not face 3fc restrictions, right?
TelinArtho 02-03-08, 08:53 AM	Nope.
Salrantol 02-03-08, 01:58 PM	@mucki: Please place audits in sblocks so people can scroll through the prison more easily.
mucki 02-03-08, 03:15 PM	done
Salrantol 02-03-08, 05:06 PM	thank you
lonewolf 02-03-08, 08:18 PM	@Telin: We didnt get that far in the adventure today, so you´ll have to wait another week for feedback. On another topic, WW are looking for a questlord for a miniquest to qualify Khamul for Warmind. We´d like to go either this or next week. Any takers?
TelinArtho 02-03-08, 10:59 PM	@Sauro - put in your previous skill breakdown in that post as well. @lonewolf - I'm in no hurry - just let me know how it goes.
SauroGrenom 02-03-08, 11:19 PM	@Sauro - put in your previous skill breakdown in that post as well. Done. I was looking at it, and corrected a couple typo's.
whitebaron 02-04-08, 11:08 AM	question regarding hideous laughter and deafness: can a person actually hit by deafness, fall to hideous laughter? it does not state otherwise, but i can only presume you're telling a magically enhanced joke - or is this joke also transferred via the spell - telepathy?
TelinArtho 02-04-08, 11:12 AM	There's no clause in the hideous laughter spell to indicate that it must be heard in order to affect the target. For that matter - hideous laughter could be made silent with the silent spell feat.
whitebaron 02-04-08, 11:13 AM	There's no clause in the hideous laughter spell to indicate that it must be heard in order to affect the target. For that matter - hideous laughter could be made silent with the silent spell feat. well, different type of creature gets a bonus since "humor does not translate well", this sounds to me like an indication like there is something spoken in it - on the other hand, it does not say you need to be able to understand it...
Hirumajoe 02-04-08, 12:59 PM	well, different type of creature gets a bonus since "humor does not translate well", this sounds to me like an indication like there is something spoken in it - on the other hand, it does not say you need to be able to understand it... Ever seen a mime? That certainly can be a form of silent humor. :)
lonewolf 02-04-08, 02:26 PM	well, different type of creature gets a bonus since "humor does not translate well", this sounds to me like an indication like there is something spoken in it - on the other hand, it does not say you need to be able to understand it... There is the [Language-depended] subtype for spells that means tha it doesnt affect people who cant hear or understand you(suggestion as example). Strangely Hideous Laughter doesnt have this subtype.
Salrantol 02-04-08, 03:10 PM	Flash back to the 2nd-edition version: the spell consisted of throwing the tiny tarts at the target while waving a feather at them. While those are still the components, it doesn't specifically state that that is how they are used, nor is it clear why a creature of a different type would find that less funny than a creature of your own type, but it is not verbal humor.
TelinArtho 02-04-08, 03:33 PM	Ummm... that is still the component: Material Component: Tiny tarts that are thrown at the target and a feather that is waved in the air.
Salrantol 02-04-08, 05:21 PM	Yeah, so I didn't actually look the spell up before commenting on it....:rolleyes:
MindWandererB 02-05-08, 05:02 PM	Treacle. The universal language.
tunagolem 02-06-08, 03:20 AM	I have a new PC (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14992044&postcount=1296). Any advice? Why isn't my PC added to the Char thread?
whitebaron 02-06-08, 03:27 AM	three reasons maybe: a) did you inform pitlords via pm before last week? as mwb was absent this week, there's no really actual roster until he returns as he's the only one able to edit it right now. b) did you inform pitlords via pm at all? (or telin for the temporaray roster he uses?) this is required for PCs to be visible on the roster. c) mwb's oversight. best to send a pm to pitlords and/or mindwandererb and simply ask. the gm can not look at all posts in the tavern for such things, obviously. @THAT STUPID CITY MAP: I belive the description of the roofs need a major overhaul, as both Durz and me had problems figuring out how it works. Especially the balancing part, that killed off Verren (because he did fall, which is not unexpected if he has to do a DC 15 balance check every round at +4) even though it was NEVER written out in the map description or any council/courtroom decision that it is needed to simply stand on the roof and shoot or get shot at.
TelinArtho 02-06-08, 10:06 AM	@wb - post up your suggestion on the rewording in the council and we'll address it. @tunagolem - just be patient. If you sent the PM to pitlords - it will be added to the roster before pairings.
MindWandererB 02-06-08, 12:18 PM	Why isn't my PC added to the Char thread? I can confirm that this character was posted after I left, and I haven't even logged into Pitlords yet. Be patient, I'll get to it.
lonewolf 02-06-08, 12:37 PM	WW are going on a miniquest this week to qualify Khamul for Warmind. If there is anyone interested in running this we will gladly take him, but otherwise we will just have a questlord assigned to us.
MindWandererB 02-06-08, 01:02 PM	I can confirm that this character was posted after I left, and I haven't even logged into Pitlords yet. Be patient, I'll get to it. ...or maybe I won't. By some sadistic twist of fate, the Pitlords account has apparently been retired during my absence. It still exists, but I can't log into it. So I can't read its PMs, and I can't edit any of its posts. I've asked custserv for help, but expecting them to resolve it in the next two hours is probably unreasonable. As I'm still convalescing anyway, I'm going to extend my "vacation" a bit longer. If Telin (or another Elder) can continue to cover for me, it would be much appreciated.
McJarvis 02-06-08, 01:10 PM	... :-O I know it's probably a result of the forum migration, but we've been getting sooo many problems lately :(
Durzulgor 02-06-08, 01:34 PM	You can't read pitlord's pms? Hmm, then I'll anounce it here, just to be shure: Please take me off the actve pitlording-list for now, since I propably won't have any time the coming weeks.
TelinArtho 02-06-08, 02:10 PM	...or maybe I won't. By some sadistic twist of fate, the Pitlords account has apparently been retired during my absence. It still exists, but I can't log into it. So I can't read its PMs, and I can't edit any of its posts. I've asked custserv for help, but expecting them to resolve it in the next two hours is probably unreasonable. As I'm still convalescing anyway, I'm going to extend my "vacation" a bit longer. If Telin (or another Elder) can continue to cover for me, it would be much appreciated. I can do it - but pairings will certainly be late. Anyone who sent a PM to pitlords this week - go ahead and forward it to me. If my PM box fills up - well - post to the FotW thread I guess. This does bring in a question about how to proceed though for the future... hopefully the pitlords account will be back before it causes us severe problems...
whitebaron 02-06-08, 02:17 PM	i wrote a pm to pitlords that our quest will take another week, but i think you know that already. ;)
lonewolf 02-06-08, 02:33 PM	Darian hired Xander again for this week, but only Pitlords can modify the Merc post.
TelinArtho 02-06-08, 02:37 PM	Assuming I don't see any other merc requests - that shouldn't be an issue. For the time being - merc hirings will be noted in the pairings I guess.
TelinArtho 02-06-08, 02:51 PM	Not sure what to do about PR for the Interleague. It says to use the absolute PR of the loser divided by the absolute PR of the winner. Darian wins/The Dark One and Gwerden lose +/- 52 (absolute 11121/(2831+2992) What I'm not sure about is whether that +/- 52 is on absolute PR or the base PR.
MindWandererB 02-06-08, 03:40 PM	Not sure what to do about PR for the Interleague. It says to use the absolute PR of the loser divided by the absolute PR of the winner. Darian wins/The Dark One and Gwerden lose +/- 52 (absolute 11121/(2831+2992) What I'm not sure about is whether that +/- 52 is on absolute PR or the base PR. It's for the base. Think of the higher-level character as basically counting as two lower-level characters.
TelinArtho 02-06-08, 03:42 PM	Oh good - because that's the way I did it...
The Dread Dormammu 02-06-08, 09:22 PM	Does anyone try to use explosive runes at all in CoCo and, if so, how do they work? Based on the text of the spell I can't tell if the person affected by the trap has to actively "read" the runes or if just passing by them can set them off. Is there a limit to how many sets of runes you can carry?
lonewolf 02-06-08, 09:30 PM	The problem with explosive runes is that no matter how you rule it to work in the arena its either: - totally broken or - next to useless. There is no middleground. At the moment you are not allowed to prepare papers with explosive runes before your 3FC starts. If you want to use the spell you can prebuff it, but the spell comes from your prepared spells that you want to use in the arena. => its pretty useless
hogarth 02-06-08, 09:58 PM	At the moment you are not allowed to prepare papers with explosive runes before your 3FC starts. If you want to use the spell you can prebuff it, but the spell comes from your prepared spells that you want to use in the arena. => its pretty useless I considered delivering Explosive Runes via kamikaze psicrystals and/or familiars, but it didn't sound like anyone was too keen on the idea.
McJarvis 02-07-08, 12:10 AM	The problem with explosive runes is that no matter how you rule it to work in the arena its either: - totally broken or - next to useless. There is no middleground. At the moment you are not allowed to prepare papers with explosive runes before your 3FC starts. If you want to use the spell you can prebuff it, but the spell comes from your prepared spells that you want to use in the arena. => its pretty useless Is this a houserule I'm unaware of? Mages that use the permanency spell are not required to burn a spell slot- I see no reason why exploding runes would be different.
CrazyArtificer 02-07-08, 03:07 AM	Maybe it could be used linked with Charm Person.. "hey friend, read this small letter I wrote for you yesterday.." runs away
whitebaron 02-07-08, 03:50 AM	@charm person: never works in the arena, as it is always considered hostile environment. @explosive runes+permanency: well, a mage using permanency has to pay gold and experience - this makes up for the cost of the spell. see it rather like buying a cheaper item. explosive runes cost NOTHING if made by yourself. allow people to amass them and then dispel/fireball/whatever... this can be clearly abused.
McJarvis 02-07-08, 10:55 AM	@charm person: never works in the arena, as it is always considered hostile environment. @explosive runes+permanency: well, a mage using permanency has to pay gold and experience - this makes up for the cost of the spell. see it rather like buying a cheaper item. That's not the point, though. The reason Permanency can be prebuffed without spell slots is because it has a permanent duration- not because it costs xp & gp. explosive runes cost NOTHING if made by yourself. allow people to amass them and then dispel/fireball/whatever... this can be clearly abused. Perhaps. Perhaps not. I think there are bigger fish to fry than Explosive Runes. ->> Personally I think all of the "trap" spells should be required to use the "set trap" skill package in order to use. We've had abuse of symbols in the past[which is far more serious than explosive runes]. I've suggested to Rith in the last few weeks that he might want to look into getting permanencied symbols all over Owen's person, due to the high CL they'd be undispellable, and once he activates them they'd essentially be an aura of save-or-die. By "Trap Spell" I mean any spell which specifies it can be found with a search check.
hogarth 02-07-08, 11:08 AM	Is this a houserule I'm unaware of? Mages that use the permanency spell are not required to burn a spell slot- I see no reason why exploding runes would be different. We had a discussion about it at any rate. I don't know if any actual house rules came out of that confab. On a related note, I still don't understand why a spell cast into a Ring of Counterspells "loses its freshness" every week when we allow other permanent effects to carry over.
McJarvis 02-07-08, 11:42 AM	We had a discussion about it at any rate. I don't know if any actual house rules came out of that confab. On a related note, I still don't understand why a spell cast into a Ring of Counterspells "loses its freshness" every week when we allow other permanent effects to carry over. Probably for the same reason that we don't let psions "pre-charge" their cog. crystals. Erm, no wait- we do do that, don't we? :)
MindWandererB 02-07-08, 03:33 PM	Probably for the same reason that we don't let psions "pre-charge" their cog. crystals. Erm, no wait- we do do that, don't we? :) We specifically added a rule for cog. crystals when we created the 3FC. I'm not sure why Permanency is treated the way it is without a specific rule for it--Symbol, too. Perhaps because Cat was fond of those.... I'm hesitant to look at significant rules revisions this late in the 3e "season." If we need a clarification, I'd suggest one based on cost, as whitebaron suggested. I have access to the Pitlords account again, so I'll be slowly getting caught up. I'm still not totally healthy, and I have a lot of "productive" things to get caught up on as well, so be patient.
templer10 02-07-08, 03:44 PM	We specifically added a rule for cog. crystals when we created the 3FC. I'm not sure why Permanency is treated the way it is without a specific rule for it--Symbol, too. Perhaps because Cat was fond of those.... I'm hesitant to look at significant rules revisions this late in the 3e "season." If we need a clarification, I'd suggest one based on cost, as whitebaron suggested. I have access to the Pitlords account again, so I'll be slowly getting caught up. I'm still not totally healthy, and I have a lot of "productive" things to get caught up on as well, so be patient. I suspect the Cog crystals thing is becuase the are equal in all things to pearls of power Which does come - precharged sort to speak.
McJarvis 02-07-08, 03:44 PM	We specifically added a rule for cog. crystals when we created the 3FC. I'm not sure why Permanency is treated the way it is without a specific rule for it--Symbol, too. Perhaps because Cat was fond of those.... I'm hesitant to look at significant rules revisions this late in the 3e "season." If we need a clarification, I'd suggest one based on cost, as whitebaron suggested. I have access to the Pitlords account again, so I'll be slowly getting caught up. I'm still not totally healthy, and I have a lot of "productive" things to get caught up on as well, so be patient. Speaking of 4E.... Can we set up a group of "guidelines" for Elders to follow relative to making rulings? I feel like CoCo has been somewhat inconsistant in how they approach rulings- often it seems that rulings are made on feelings or how strong a case is presented one way or another, rather than some sort of systematic way of reading rules. This isn't to say that we should bind the elders to a code of conduct- but I'd like guidelines like "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" in place so we can avoid unnecessary houserules. [or even "If it's ridiculous, fix it", if that's what you care about more]. Consistancy is the key here more than getting my own way. But if you want to know what I like... :-) Personally[as I've stated many times before], I feel the fewer houserules/clarifications we have the better CoCo will do in the long run. Heck- even a very clear and concise written-out way in which we will handle revisions in the rules. [Does the FAQ trump all? What if it only "suggests" an action is reasonable? What about RotG? Etc, Etc] edit- I feel I need to place an emphasis one more time on the fact that these would be "elder guidelines" and not "elder instructions". I think that's an extremely important point. Even if the elders don't feel they need guidelines[because they already have an unwritten code], I think having it written out would help newcomers understand our culture more.
CrazyArtificer 02-07-08, 03:53 PM	I second McJarvis in his request. I believe the more clear the Elders are about how they take some decisions, what guidelines they follow etc etc, the more the other members will understand their ruling and avoid pointless arguments.
hogarth 02-07-08, 04:02 PM	Personally[as I've stated many times before], I feel the fewer houserules/clarifications we have the better CoCo will do in the long run. Heck- even a very clear and concise written-out way in which we will handle revisions in the rules. [Does the FAQ trump all? What if it only "suggests" an action is reasonable? What about RotG? Etc, Etc]. I think there is a set of guidelines already: use the SRD + published errata as primary sources, with "Sage Advice", "Rules of the Game", rules changes from splatbooks, and whatever add-ons Caterane came up with as secondary sources. In my experience, the really contentious issues have one side saying "The rules clearly say X!" and the other side saying "The rules are ambiguous, and my interpretation is Y." Whether you accept X or Y, one side is going to call it a "house rule". Actually, the decisions that everyone can agree are clearly house rules (like our rules on Polymorph, say), most people are happy with, I think. {For instance, "X" could be "psicrystals get feats for HD", "matter agitation does untyped damage", "elans need to pay more for their armor", etc., etc., ad nauseam.}
MindWandererB 02-07-08, 04:25 PM	The good news with 4e is that there really ought to be fewer problems than there are with 3e in this regard. The team at WotC has improved considerably over the years, and 4e has gone through a lot of playtesting (although, more "crunchy" playtesting than "think outside the box" playtesting). We also won't be burdened with an FAQ or Rules of the Game for at least a little while. Hogarth is right in that we do have a general guideline about what sources to use--but he's also right in that there are a lot of cases where the rules just aren't clear, or don't make any sense. Take pegasi flying in the sewers--there's no rule against it anywhere, but I think you'd have a hard time finding a DM who could look you in the face and tell you that there's nothing wrong with a creature with a 20' wingspan flying through a 10' space. The problem is that in general, I think we should stick to RAW as closely as possible. For the CoCo to serve its original mission statement, it needs to obey the "default" rules, i.e. the rules that will be obeyed by the greatest possible number of DMs across the world. That means few house rules, but it also means that any rule that people are unlikely to follow as written should be ignored or altered. Energy Missile is a good example--everyone I know of house-ruled that one long before Complete Psionic came out. I think elans counting as humanoid for the purpose of armor is another good example. As I said, 4e will solve a lot of those problems. "Humanoid" is more of a shape than a genetic family now, so there will be less confusion. Nothing without hands will be eligible to be a PC. Everything in the PHB has been meticulously balanced, so we'll have fewer Energy Missile situations. Damage types have been expanded--I don't think there's any such thing as untyped damage anymore. And so on.
McJarvis 02-07-08, 04:47 PM	I think there is a set of guidelines already: use the SRD + published errata as primary sources, with "Sage Advice", "Rules of the Game", rules changes from splatbooks, and whatever add-ons Caterane came up with as secondary sources. Where is this listed in the rules of gladius or the elders thread? I don't believe I've seen it before. It also doesn't represent all the elders. I'm pretty sure Telin preferes "Core+SRD/FAQ, RotG only when they can be used to resolve conflicts within the Core+SRD/FAQ" (though this definition may just be going the extra mile and defining what "primary" and "Secondary" actually mean) {For instance, "X" could be "psicrystals get feats for HD", "matter agitation does untyped damage", "elans need to pay more for their armor", etc., etc., ad nauseam.} This is my point, though. The rules say what they say, and we house-rule things in to have the rules make sense. The rules don't say that a pegasus can't fly in a 10' space, but someone along the line said "wait- that doesn't make sense at all" - and it became a houserule. Same goes for untyped damage producing effects similar to being damaged by fire/electricty, psicrystals getting feats, and wonky rules for armor-pricing that don't have anything to do with shape. edit- Essentially, there are three types of "Elder Decisions" 1. Houserules- These are rules which add to or change existing rules. Also in this category are rules created for "general sanity" reasons. ie- stopping grappling horses, defining energy types on "obvious" powers, etc, etc. Personally, I believe they should be relied on a minimum amount of the time, only in order to preserve balance in the arena. 2. Clarifications- These are Elder decisions that explain the rules, but do not change them. Examples are pointers to FAQ clarifications, or obscure rules in general. I have no issues with a large library of these being kept. 3. Meta- These are rulings that revolve around the community of CoCo. In this camp are things like skill packages, lighting conditions, format changes[3FC], etc. I have no issues with a large library of these being kept. 4. Community- These are rulings that do not affect the actual fighting conditions gladiators are in, but still affect the game. Examples are service rewards(credits), black market requests, character sheet guidelines, etc.
hogarth 02-07-08, 05:03 PM	This is my point, though. Person X says "The rules say what they say. Armor that's not for a creature of type 'Humanoid' costs extra." Person Y says "It's clear the word 'humanoid' in that sentence means 'more or less human-looking' rather than 'creature of type Humanoid'." Both X and Y believe they're reading what the rules say. So who's right? {Answer: McJarvis :P} Your categories (1) and (2) below are as clear as mud (in practice); what's a "Clarification" to one person is a "House Rule" to someone else. This is my point, though. The rules say what they say, and we house-rule things in to have the rules make sense. The rules don't say that a pegasus can't fly in a 10' space, but someone along the line said "wait- that doesn't make sense at all" - and it became a houserule. Same goes for untyped damage producing effects similar to being damaged by fire/electricty, psicrystals getting feats, and wonky rules for armor-pricing that don't have anything to do with shape. edit- Essentially, there are three types of "Elder Decisions" 1. Houserules- These are rules which add to or change existing rules. Also in this category are rules created for "general sanity" reasons. ie- stopping grappling horses, defining energy types on "obvious" powers, etc, etc. Personally, I believe they should be relied on a minimum amount of the time, only in order to preserve balance in the arena. 2. Clarifications- These are Elder decisions that explain the rules, but do not change them. Examples are pointers to FAQ clarifications, or obscure rules in general. I have no issues with a large library of these being kept. 3. Meta- These are rulings that revolve around the community of CoCo. In this camp are things like skill packages, lighting conditions, format changes[3FC], etc. I have no issues with a large library of these being kept. 4. Community- These are rulings that do not affect the actual fighting conditions gladiators are in, but still affect the game. Examples are service rewards(credits), black market requests, character sheet guidelines, etc.
McJarvis 02-07-08, 05:07 PM	I'm not sure if there's a point to posing a counterarguement- but you seem to be on the right track with the idea that I'm right. Your point of person Y is incorrect- the rules use a vocabulary of their own, and you must take it into consideration. Otherwise I could say the spell Mindblank makes me immune to all spells, because the fact that I see them on my opponent's character sheet is "mind affecting", and thus I am immune to them! After all- their existance is affecting my mind. See what happens when you ignore that "Mind Affecting" has a definition somewhere else in the game? I don't think any of the elders believed the rules said anything other than what the rules do. What they apparently did believe, though, is that armor should be sold based on body-type rather than creature-type. This is a house-rule since it deviates from what is written. Let's pose a problem of modern day politics. Suppose someone has been living the US for 50 years, paying taxes all that time, has a white-picket fence & 2.5 children. Are they an American Citizen? While they certainly have all the appearance of one[using gross steriotypes], the fact remains that if they do not have citizenship themselves, ethey are not a citizen. This is not a statement of whether they deserve the same rights. This is merely a statement of fact. The rules of D&D are much the same. Elans may walk the walk and talk the talk- but they are not humanoids. This is not a statement of whether they deserve the right to buy armor for humanoid-costs. This is merely a statement of fact. There is what the rules say, and then there is perhaps what is right. Houserules exist to correct the wrong. As MWB has said, hopefully 4E will require fewer of these houserules. Even if it doesn't- I propose we only make them if the game is in danger of breaking without them.
hogarth 02-07-08, 05:27 PM	The rules of D&D are much the same. Elans may walk the walk and talk the talk- but they are not humanoids. This is not a statement of whether they deserve the right to buy armor for humanoid-costs. This is merely a statement of fact. There's a meaning of the word "humanoid" besides "a creature type in D&D". No one reads the part of the SRD that says: A giant is a humanoid-shaped creature of great strength, usually of at least Large size. and then reasons: "A were-octopus in animal shape is a humanoid, so a creature of type giant looks like an octopus." I think you'll agree that people can genuinely disagree whether a rule is clear or ambiguous (since we've just provided an example).
McJarvis 02-07-08, 05:43 PM	I think you'll agree that people can genuinely disagree whether a rule is clear or ambiguous (since we've just provided an example). All this proves is that people can be mistaken about the rules. Definitions are definitions, and they are made for a reason. Descriptive text doesn't change them. Your excerpt is a good reason to make a house-rule about armor[and perhaps a house-rule about lycanthrope animal types], but it does not change what the rules say. All that said- I still wouldn't favor a house-rule. More house-rules is bad for CoCo.
McJarvis 02-07-08, 06:03 PM	The problem is that in general, I think we should stick to RAW as closely as possible. For the CoCo to serve its original mission statement, it needs to obey the "default" rules, i.e. the rules that will be obeyed by the greatest possible number of DMs across the world. That means few house rules, but it also means that any rule that people are unlikely to follow as written should be ignored or altered. Getting back on topic- this is the kind of thing that I think should be said out loud. "As few house-rules as possible while preserving an atmosphere that represents most D&D tabletop sessions" would certainly be a great start.
CrazyArtificer 02-08-08, 04:12 AM	Question on Audits.. I'm looking at the sheets of characters I'm pitlording. I've found some mistakes on a sheet of one gladiator who advanced just one fight ago. Can I post the violation as an audit?
whitebaron 02-08-08, 04:16 AM	Question on Audits.. I'm looking at the sheets of characters I'm pitlording. I've found some mistakes on a sheet of one gladiator who advanced just one fight ago. Can I post the violation as an audit? just one violation does not make an audit. to audit, you need to check his expendables used, his xp gained, his money spent... its much more than a violation. that said - it's unusual for players auditing another character without further anouncement - it's just not common practice. but feel free to audit any character you like - but keep in mind, it's a lot of work, too.
mucki 02-08-08, 04:17 AM	I am not sure if you can do audits unrequested, but even if you can, you will have to check all his levels, not just the last advancement for a proper audit.
CrazyArtificer 02-08-08, 04:31 AM	just one violation does not make an audit. to audit, you need to check his expendables used, his xp gained, his money spent... its much more than a violation. Well, I thought the problem was right in the earned experience, but double checking it seems correct. I am not sure if you can do audits unrequested, but even if you can, you will have to check all his levels, not just the last advancement for a proper audit. Yes, I know. That's a lot of work, indeed.
whitebaron 02-08-08, 04:34 AM	woot... Currently active users: whitebaron, Caterane, CrazyArtificer
CrazyArtificer 02-08-08, 04:53 AM	nostalgy?
TelinArtho 02-08-08, 09:51 AM	Anyone can be audited (assuming the character is high enough level - ie - advanced at least once since the last audit) - you do not need permission.
McJarvis 02-08-08, 10:16 AM	this is not allowed by coco rules, though it is in the srd. you can not make money or craft something with the aid of other people. Where is that mentioned? @Tunagolem: Moved this conversation here since you shouldn't be having back and forth discussions in the prison.
TelinArtho 02-08-08, 10:26 AM	Heh - I already sent him a PM with the explanation and with instructions to bring it here if needed.
hogarth 02-08-08, 10:28 AM	Anyone can be audited (assuming the character is high enough level - ie - advanced at least once since the last audit) - you do not need permission. It couldn't hurt to give the owner a private message, just to check that the character is not (unofficially) retired or in the middle of being edited. Personally, I usually activate a character for a while and then lose interest halfway through updating for a new level, so doing an audit might turn up a lot of spurious errors (in addition to the genuine ones).
TelinArtho 02-08-08, 10:41 AM	It couldn't hurt to give the owner a private message, just to check that the character is not (unofficially) retired or in the middle of being edited. Personally, I usually activate a character for a while and then lose interest halfway through updating for a new level, so doing an audit might turn up a lot of spurious errors (in addition to the genuine ones). Very true. I remember my first few audits... the first revealed a 4k accounting error and I think one of the others revealed a 2k accounting error (the first in the character's favor, the second not so much...)
CrazyArtificer 02-08-08, 10:49 AM	Thanks hogarth, I'll try to remember sending a PM before auditing, or maybe dropping a line or two inside the tavern (as mucki did a few days ago)
TelinArtho 02-08-08, 10:56 AM	Now that I've received tactics from Stormwind - I need to ask: Does the heat (ex) ability from the remorhaz apply versus incorporeal foes? What about incorporeal foes' weapons? I'm assuming not - since it is not a (su) or (sp) ability - but I figured it doesn't hurt to check before hand.
whitebaron 02-08-08, 11:42 AM	ghost touch weapons count as incorporeal - so they are not effected either. extraordinary attacks won't be able to hit an incorporeal, unless they are somehow spell-empowered. ;)
MindWandererB 02-08-08, 01:13 PM	ghost touch weapons count as incorporeal - so they are not effected either. extraordinary attacks won't be able to hit an incorporeal, unless they are somehow spell-empowered. ;) Eh... I'm not sold on that. A ghost touch weapon "counts as either corporeal or incorporeal at any given time, whichever is more beneficial to the wielder," but I'm not sure it can do both fully at the same time. If the weapon has to be corporeal to strike the remorhaz, then it should be vulnerable, as a corporeal object, to the remorhaz's heat, if only for that instant.
mucki 02-08-08, 01:37 PM	apart from the fact that it doesn't really make sense otherwise, the wording "either" makes me think that it definitely cannot be both at the same time.
Stormwind 02-08-08, 02:23 PM	Eh... I'm not sold on that. A ghost touch weapon "counts as either corporeal or incorporeal at any given time, whichever is more beneficial to the wielder," but I'm not sure it can do both fully at the same time. If the weapon has to be corporeal to strike the remorhaz, then it should be vulnerable, as a corporeal object, to the remorhaz's heat, if only for that instant. @MWB: Does the weapon actually have to be corporeal when it attacks? ... ghost touch is kinda odd like that. The rules of the game article 'There, not There (part 3) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040928a)' indicates that a ghost touch weapon can be corporeal or incorporeal when used to attack, dependant on the wielder's decision. @Telin: When I wrote Varjo's tactics, I had assumed that she would be using her incorporeal touch attacks, not the dagger. Of course I forgot to specify this specifically in her tactics (although if you compare with _all_ her previous tactics you'll see the trend). Anyway, since it's my screw up for not stating it specifically, I'll accept whatever you do in the fight. I would however appreciate if you take this into consideration. Nevermind ;)
TelinArtho 02-08-08, 02:30 PM	@MWB: Does the weapon actually have to be corporeal when it attacks? ... ghost touch is kinda odd like that. The rules of the game article 'There, not There (part 3) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040928a)' indicates that a ghost touch weapon can be corporeal or incorporeal when used to attack, dependant on the wielder's decision. @Telin: When I wrote Varjo's tactics, I had assumed that she would be using her incorporeal touch attacks, not the dagger. Of course I forgot to specify this specifically in her tactics (although if you compare with _all_ her previous tactics you'll see the trend). Anyway, since it's my screw up for not stating it specifically, I'll accept whatever you do in the fight. I would however appreciate if you take this into consideration. Really? I got no impression you wanted to use your touch attacks at all. I'm reluctant to edit it since it is no where in your tactics and you specifically requested the dagger (and if you didn't want to use the dagger - why specifically hold it?).
Stormwind 02-08-08, 02:35 PM	Really? I got no impression you wanted to use your touch attacks at all. I'm reluctant to edit it since it is no where in your tactics and you specifically requested the dagger (and if you didn't want to use the dagger - why specifically hold it?). No problem ... like I said ... my screw up :)
lonewolf 02-08-08, 02:35 PM	Can someone confirm for me that full attacking while using HIPS is possible. Im quite sure to remember that it is but I dont remember the exact arguments why that is the case.
TelinArtho 02-08-08, 05:17 PM	You can full attack and use HiPS after - but during it - you are exposed, plain as day. On another note, can I get some opinions on removing the Fly portion from the Celestial armor? Celestial Armor: +3 chainmail (+8 max dex, -2 ACP, 15% ASF), 1/day fly @CL5 +3 armor (9000gp) Fly 1/day @CL5 (5400gp) [1800gp x 3 (SL) x 5 (CL) x (1/5) (charges per day)] Base armor (8000gp) The character I'm considering it for already has Fly 100ft (perfect) so it would be a complete waste of 5400gp.
MindWandererB 02-08-08, 05:33 PM	That's a lot of cash compared to a mithral breastplate. Is this an uber-Dex build of some sort?
TelinArtho 02-08-08, 05:43 PM	I'll say yes... the +8 max dex is actually still restricting him some... There's not many races that have Fly 100ft (perfect), so it shouldn't be too tough to figure out. Regardless, he's still in the design stages.
MindWandererB 02-08-08, 05:46 PM	Please continue all discussions in the new Core Coliseum Tavern (XI).