Council of Elder Mods [Archive] - Wizards Community

Council of Elder Mods [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Caterane
03-02-04, 11:10 PM This thread is for the 8 Elder Pitlords only!

Please take up one and only one post which you edit just like with the old polls thread. Perhaps even take on your own color. Then save this thread under 'favorites' because it will vanish over time due to no new posts coming up. Any new poll will be announced in the Tavern because you won`t get notified by the board.

The Elder Pitlords
Moherajikuyx
Snarkhunter
LLMadCow
Jindl
Magagumo
Tellish_of_Ket
MotherBast
Caterane

Council Rules

The polls: The next thread contains all polls. A poll will be opened as long as there is one Elder Pitlord's voice missing (exception: if a poll has already 5 voices in favor of one side then it may be considered 'closed' and the rule enacted but will stay open until everyone has voted)
Voices: Every Elder Pitlord has one voice.
Attitude: Most of the times polls will be voted as 'Yes', 'No', or 'Abstain'. Please put one of these words at the beginning of your vote. You may explain the reason behind this in a short description (optional). In some cases the voices is required to be more specific (example: "Do you want a green, red or blue background") in which case the various voice options will by included in the poll question (e.g. "Green", "Red", "Blue")
Discussion: This board is for the votes only. Any discussion will be held in the Elder Pitlord's Forum (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=192897&goto=newpost)
Decision: A poll is enacted as soon as a simple majority is reached. As soon as 5 Elder Pitlords voted in favor of one side (abolute majority) the poll is enacted, no matter if there are still votes missing. In case of a draw, the poll goes to the open poll system which includes every member of the CoCo. If the poll has other choices than the ordinary ones (e.g. 'green', 'red', 'blue'), a majority of 2 wins.
Deadline: Every poll has a deadline by when it is closed. Any Elder's voice not put to vote by then is considered abstain. The default poll time is two weeks, but it may be prolonged if difficult and/or decisions with severe consequences are to be made.
Overview: Please post your votes so that they are easily recognizable; a list would be best. Please keep your seat clean of other statements; I might miss a vote.
Caterane
03-02-04, 11:12 PM [list=1]
Masterwork Tools: How should we handle [Ma]tools which give you a +2 circumstance bonus to a single skill?
(a) Disallow them altogether
(b) Allow only tools related to skills that impose a penalty without tools? [Craft and Ride]
(c) Allow only tools related to trade skills? [Craft, Profession, Perform, and Handle animal]
(d) Allow them altogether but every [Ma]tool takes up one of the various slots? [and a logical one at that!]
(e) Allow them without restriction?

(1) Motherbast: B; (2) Snark: B; (3) Jindl: C; (4) Magagumo: C; (5) Caterane: B; (6) LLMadCow: C; (7) Moherajikuyx: C; (8) Tellish: C

Result: B = 3 votes; C = 5 votes

Masterwork Tools: Should we add Ride to the list of skills with [Ma]tools?
(a) Yes
(b) No
(c) Abstain

(1) Caterane: Yes; (2) Moherajikuyx: Yes; (3) LLMadCow: Yes; (4) Motherbast: No; (5) Snark: Abstain; (6) Tellish: Yes; (7) Jindl: No

Result: Yes: 4 votes; Abstain: 1 vote; No: 2 votes

Improved natural attack: Do you think a monk's unarmed strike qualifies for Improved natural attack?
(a) Yes
(b) No
(c) Abstain

(1) Caterane: No; (2) LLMadCow: Yes; (3) Motherbast: Yes; (4) Magagumo: No; (5) Tellish: No; (6) Jindl: Yes; (7) Moherajikuyx: No; (8) Snark: Yes

Result: 4:4 draw. The poll goes in the open: link (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=197368) --> 13:7 Yes

Copying spells: Should wizards be allowed to copy spells for a fee of 50gp/lvl from another wizard's spellbook, as described in the PHB?
(a) Yes
(b) No
(c) Abstain

(1) Caterane: Yes; (2) Snark: Yes; (3) LLMadCow: Yes; (4) Jindl: No; (5) Motherbast: No; (6) Tellish: No; (7) Magagumo: Yes; (8) Moherajikuyx: No

Result: 4:4 draw. The poll goes in the open: link (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=203629) --> 17:12 No

Wilded Armor: Do you think a druid wearing a wilded armor gets the armor bonus to AC but is still considered unarmored?
(a) Yes
(b) No
(c) Abstain

(1) Caterane: No; (2) Magagumo: No; (3) Motherbast: Abstain; (4) Tellish: No; (5) Snark: Abstain; (6) LLMadCow: No; (7) Jindl: Yes; (8) Moherajikuyx: No

Result: Yes = 1 vote, Abstain = 2 votes, No = 5 votes

Red Wizards: Do you think we should allow the Red Wizard Prestige Class (including Tattoo focus)?
(a) Yes
(b) No
(c) Abstain

(1) Snark: Yes; (2) LLMadCow: Yes; (3) Tellish: No; (4) Jindl: No; (5) Magagumo: Abstain; (6) Motherbast: Yes; (7) Caterane: Yes

Result: Yes = 4 votes, Abstain = 1 vote, No = 2 votes

The Lich: Do you think we should allow the lich without the 120k gp aswell as the casterlevel requirement? ...go to debate (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=227046)
(a) Yes, allow the lich without requirements, or as a template class (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031212a)
(b) No, do not allow the lich without requirements
(c) Abstain

(1) Caterane: Yes; (2) Motherbast: Abstain; (3) Snark: Yes; (4) LLMadCow: Yes; (5) Magagumo: Yes

Result: Yes = 4 votes, No = 0 votes, Abstain = 1 vote

Build mistakes: coming soon...
[/list=1]
Caterane
03-02-04, 11:13 PM [list=1]
Masterwork tools: B (or C including Ride)
Improved natural attack: No.
Copying spells: Yes.
Wilded Armor: No.
Red Wizards: Yes
The Lich: Yes, else we will never see any lichs! See debate for further arguments. And there was no opposition at all so it seems the idea has much support in the House of Commons.
[/list=1]
SnarkHunter
03-02-04, 11:18 PM I am teh Modzor!

(space reserved for SnarkHunter)

For #1 I'd say B.
-MW tools and ride I have no particular opinion, abstain.
For #2 I think that INA would apply to a monk's fist.

For #3 Yes. In point of fact both Bruno and Bilo have been doing this for a while. I wasn't even aware this was cause for debate.

For #4 I truly can't decide one way or the other. Abstain.

For #5 Yes, no restrictions. (i.e. tattoo focus even if not taking prestige class).

For #6 I say we allow the lich level progression without the gold cost. If it works well enough we can then consider allowing some of the other level progressions.
LLMadCow
03-02-04, 11:53 PM Masterwork Tools: (c) Allow only tools related to trade skills? [edit: Trade skills: Craft, Profession, Perform, and Handle animal] +Ride

Improved Natural Attack: Yes (See Magic Fang description for more information) :P

Copying spells: Yes

Wilded Armor: No (It saddens me that the answer is no, but everything I see within the rules either speaks against this or is neutral to this - nothing seems to be in favor of this idea.)

@Cat - Please close this vote, as there are currently 2 Abstains and 4 No's. The vote is over, and there is no reason to keep ignoring my vote.

NEW ISSUE - Red Wizards
Red Wizards - They are in the core books, but not allowed in the arena. I am aware that the books says they are from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, which is not core, but the Githyanki and the Githzerai are allowed even though the Psionic Handbook is not core either. Why is it that we allow one thing that isn't from the "Core World Settng", just because it is in one of the Core 3.5 books, but disallow another that meets the same criteria? This isn't an issue of what is fair and what isn't, this is an issue of - What is good for one is good for the other! My arguement for the Red Wizards is actually stronger than the arguement for the Gith. The Gith have abilities that are listed in the Monster Manual, but are not DEFINED ANYWHERE within the Core 3.5 books. On the other hand, EVERYTHING you need, as far as game mechanics are concerned, for a Red Wizard is found within the Core 3.5 books.

Follow up - I understand and agree that the Gith are included in the Monetsr Manual. That is all fine and dandy, but the nature of psionics is not covered within any of the Core 3.5 books. There is always the issue of: Are Psionics and Magic declared to work the same way and affect each other? So, does a Dispel Magic dispel their psionics as well? The Red Wizard requires Tatoo Focus, which is clearly defined within the DMG and ALL aspects of the Red Wizard are defined within the books.

So, that's my arguement, lets take it to a vote...

The Lich: Do you think we should allow the lich without the 120k gp aswell as the casterlevel requirement? (a) Yes, allow the lich without requirements, or as a template class
Tellish_of_Ket
03-03-04, 07:19 AM 5: no/no

-ToK
Jindl
03-03-04, 11:11 AM Hello. Is this seat taken?

1. C and No to including Ride
2. Yes
3. No. Only by purchasing and scribing scrolls.
4. Yes, the druid is unarmored.
5. No to both the Red Wizard and Tatoo Focus.
Magagumo
03-03-04, 01:32 PM I'm going to vote "C" on this one. I doubt we'll see Profession much, and Perform means a hand (or two) is occupied by the instrument. As for Handle Animal, they will need to have the item on a slot in order to "push" an animal mid-combat, but I see no problem with them using it during training.

We're actually going to try the Improved Natural Attack in a campaign I'm joining, but I can't tell you if it will proved unbalanced (especially with Enlarge Person). Till I'm positive, I say "No" to IUS counting for INA.

3. We ignore RP most of the time in this arena, allowing full access to beaties to hunt and items to be crafted. If we have people making +4 swords, then we have high-level wizards (or Arena libraries) available for cheap scribing of spells. Why makes us waste money on scrolls when theoretically, we should be given the same license of full availability as anyone else?

4. I agree they get the AC bonus w/o ACP (good ability, worth the +3), but they are still wearing armor.. they couldn't be wearing morearmor on top of that... so no monk madness (I also don't think that a 13k item should be giving the Wsdom bonus to AC... but I can see that it only makes monk's and non-armor using Druid's the happiest... few cleric's would give up full plate ;))

So, No, the druid is not considered unarmored.

1a. Didn't see the addendum to MW Tools and Ride, I vote A (Yes) to allowing Ride as well.

5. As for Red Wizard.. I can't decide either way, C (Abstain)

6. A. But the caster level requirements should stay, the 120k is unecessary but only powerful casters become liches. The bonuses from the class are otherwise too powerful for a low-level character. But yes, template class for 12-15th levels would work beautifully :)
MotherBast
03-03-04, 04:15 PM Sorry I'm late... my car broke down, in heavy traffic, durring an earthquake, in the middle of a blizzard, and I had to walk 43 miles barefoot in the snow. I'm hear now though.

As far as poll #1 goes, Id vote B, and I would not include ride.

For INA, I say YES

For #3: Yes, I changed my vote here, because the fighters were unfairly voting this out based on there desire to limit wizards, and not on wether or not this should be possible.

For #4: This poll should be null and void. As this has already been ruled apon by WotC, we would be making a house rule to change it. I don't support even voting to change any offical rules.

For #5: I agree with LL. YES, to the wiz and to tattoo focus.

For #6: Abstain.
Moherajikuyx
03-18-04, 08:46 AM Hey guys! Expect me to appear really seldomly.
Too bad that the real polls can't be used. Oh well.

Masterwork Tools:
(b) or (c): I'd say both of them

Improved natural attack:
(b)

Copying spells:
(b)

Wild Armor:
I like ToK's argument, that's a no.
(b)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Caterane 03-02-04, 11:10 PM	This thread is for the 8 Elder Pitlords only! Please take up one and only one post which you edit just like with the old polls thread. Perhaps even take on your own color. Then save this thread under 'favorites' because it will vanish over time due to no new posts coming up. Any new poll will be announced in the Tavern because you won`t get notified by the board. The Elder Pitlords Moherajikuyx Snarkhunter LLMadCow Jindl Magagumo Tellish_of_Ket MotherBast Caterane Council Rules The polls: The next thread contains all polls. A poll will be opened as long as there is one Elder Pitlord's voice missing (exception: if a poll has already 5 voices in favor of one side then it may be considered 'closed' and the rule enacted but will stay open until everyone has voted) Voices: Every Elder Pitlord has one voice. Attitude: Most of the times polls will be voted as 'Yes', 'No', or 'Abstain'. Please put one of these words at the beginning of your vote. You may explain the reason behind this in a short description (optional). In some cases the voices is required to be more specific (example: "Do you want a green, red or blue background") in which case the various voice options will by included in the poll question (e.g. "Green", "Red", "Blue") Discussion: This board is for the votes only. Any discussion will be held in the Elder Pitlord's Forum (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=192897&goto=newpost) Decision: A poll is enacted as soon as a simple majority is reached. As soon as 5 Elder Pitlords voted in favor of one side (abolute majority) the poll is enacted, no matter if there are still votes missing. In case of a draw, the poll goes to the open poll system which includes every member of the CoCo. If the poll has other choices than the ordinary ones (e.g. 'green', 'red', 'blue'), a majority of 2 wins. Deadline: Every poll has a deadline by when it is closed. Any Elder's voice not put to vote by then is considered abstain. The default poll time is two weeks, but it may be prolonged if difficult and/or decisions with severe consequences are to be made. Overview: Please post your votes so that they are easily recognizable; a list would be best. Please keep your seat clean of other statements; I might miss a vote.
Caterane 03-02-04, 11:12 PM	[list=1] Masterwork Tools: How should we handle [Ma]tools which give you a +2 circumstance bonus to a single skill? (a) Disallow them altogether (b) Allow only tools related to skills that impose a penalty without tools? [Craft and Ride] (c) Allow only tools related to trade skills? [Craft, Profession, Perform, and Handle animal] (d) Allow them altogether but every [Ma]tool takes up one of the various slots? [and a logical one at that!] (e) Allow them without restriction? (1) Motherbast: B; (2) Snark: B; (3) Jindl: C; (4) Magagumo: C; (5) Caterane: B; (6) LLMadCow: C; (7) Moherajikuyx: C; (8) Tellish: C Result: B = 3 votes; C = 5 votes Masterwork Tools: Should we add Ride to the list of skills with [Ma]tools? (a) Yes (b) No (c) Abstain (1) Caterane: Yes; (2) Moherajikuyx: Yes; (3) LLMadCow: Yes; (4) Motherbast: No; (5) Snark: Abstain; (6) Tellish: Yes; (7) Jindl: No Result: Yes: 4 votes; Abstain: 1 vote; No: 2 votes Improved natural attack: Do you think a monk's unarmed strike qualifies for Improved natural attack? (a) Yes (b) No (c) Abstain (1) Caterane: No; (2) LLMadCow: Yes; (3) Motherbast: Yes; (4) Magagumo: No; (5) Tellish: No; (6) Jindl: Yes; (7) Moherajikuyx: No; (8) Snark: Yes Result: 4:4 draw. The poll goes in the open: link (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=197368) --> 13:7 Yes Copying spells: Should wizards be allowed to copy spells for a fee of 50gp/lvl from another wizard's spellbook, as described in the PHB? (a) Yes (b) No (c) Abstain (1) Caterane: Yes; (2) Snark: Yes; (3) LLMadCow: Yes; (4) Jindl: No; (5) Motherbast: No; (6) Tellish: No; (7) Magagumo: Yes; (8) Moherajikuyx: No Result: 4:4 draw. The poll goes in the open: link (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=203629) --> 17:12 No Wilded Armor: Do you think a druid wearing a wilded armor gets the armor bonus to AC but is still considered unarmored? (a) Yes (b) No (c) Abstain (1) Caterane: No; (2) Magagumo: No; (3) Motherbast: Abstain; (4) Tellish: No; (5) Snark: Abstain; (6) LLMadCow: No; (7) Jindl: Yes; (8) Moherajikuyx: No Result: Yes = 1 vote, Abstain = 2 votes, No = 5 votes Red Wizards: Do you think we should allow the Red Wizard Prestige Class (including Tattoo focus)? (a) Yes (b) No (c) Abstain (1) Snark: Yes; (2) LLMadCow: Yes; (3) Tellish: No; (4) Jindl: No; (5) Magagumo: Abstain; (6) Motherbast: Yes; (7) Caterane: Yes Result: Yes = 4 votes, Abstain = 1 vote, No = 2 votes The Lich: Do you think we should allow the lich without the 120k gp aswell as the casterlevel requirement? ...go to debate (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=227046) (a) Yes, allow the lich without requirements, or as a template class (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031212a) (b) No, do not allow the lich without requirements (c) Abstain (1) Caterane: Yes; (2) Motherbast: Abstain; (3) Snark: Yes; (4) LLMadCow: Yes; (5) Magagumo: Yes Result: Yes = 4 votes, No = 0 votes, Abstain = 1 vote Build mistakes: coming soon... [/list=1]
Caterane 03-02-04, 11:13 PM	[list=1] Masterwork tools: B (or C including Ride) Improved natural attack: No. Copying spells: Yes. Wilded Armor: No. Red Wizards: Yes The Lich: Yes, else we will never see any lichs! See debate for further arguments. And there was no opposition at all so it seems the idea has much support in the House of Commons. [/list=1]
SnarkHunter 03-02-04, 11:18 PM	I am teh Modzor! (space reserved for SnarkHunter) For #1 I'd say B. -MW tools and ride I have no particular opinion, abstain. For #2 I think that INA would apply to a monk's fist. For #3 Yes. In point of fact both Bruno and Bilo have been doing this for a while. I wasn't even aware this was cause for debate. For #4 I truly can't decide one way or the other. Abstain. For #5 Yes, no restrictions. (i.e. tattoo focus even if not taking prestige class). For #6 I say we allow the lich level progression without the gold cost. If it works well enough we can then consider allowing some of the other level progressions.
LLMadCow 03-02-04, 11:53 PM	Masterwork Tools: (c) Allow only tools related to trade skills? [edit: Trade skills: Craft, Profession, Perform, and Handle animal] +Ride Improved Natural Attack: Yes (See Magic Fang description for more information) :P Copying spells: Yes Wilded Armor: No (It saddens me that the answer is no, but everything I see within the rules either speaks against this or is neutral to this - nothing seems to be in favor of this idea.) @Cat - Please close this vote, as there are currently 2 Abstains and 4 No's. The vote is over, and there is no reason to keep ignoring my vote. NEW ISSUE - Red Wizards Red Wizards - They are in the core books, but not allowed in the arena. I am aware that the books says they are from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, which is not core, but the Githyanki and the Githzerai are allowed even though the Psionic Handbook is not core either. Why is it that we allow one thing that isn't from the "Core World Settng", just because it is in one of the Core 3.5 books, but disallow another that meets the same criteria? This isn't an issue of what is fair and what isn't, this is an issue of - What is good for one is good for the other! My arguement for the Red Wizards is actually stronger than the arguement for the Gith. The Gith have abilities that are listed in the Monster Manual, but are not DEFINED ANYWHERE within the Core 3.5 books. On the other hand, EVERYTHING you need, as far as game mechanics are concerned, for a Red Wizard is found within the Core 3.5 books. Follow up - I understand and agree that the Gith are included in the Monetsr Manual. That is all fine and dandy, but the nature of psionics is not covered within any of the Core 3.5 books. There is always the issue of: Are Psionics and Magic declared to work the same way and affect each other? So, does a Dispel Magic dispel their psionics as well? The Red Wizard requires Tatoo Focus, which is clearly defined within the DMG and ALL aspects of the Red Wizard are defined within the books. So, that's my arguement, lets take it to a vote... The Lich: Do you think we should allow the lich without the 120k gp aswell as the casterlevel requirement? (a) Yes, allow the lich without requirements, or as a template class
Tellish_of_Ket 03-03-04, 07:19 AM	5: no/no -ToK
Jindl 03-03-04, 11:11 AM	Hello. Is this seat taken? 1. C and No to including Ride 2. Yes 3. No. Only by purchasing and scribing scrolls. 4. Yes, the druid is unarmored. 5. No to both the Red Wizard and Tatoo Focus.
Magagumo 03-03-04, 01:32 PM	I'm going to vote "C" on this one. I doubt we'll see Profession much, and Perform means a hand (or two) is occupied by the instrument. As for Handle Animal, they will need to have the item on a slot in order to "push" an animal mid-combat, but I see no problem with them using it during training. We're actually going to try the Improved Natural Attack in a campaign I'm joining, but I can't tell you if it will proved unbalanced (especially with Enlarge Person). Till I'm positive, I say "No" to IUS counting for INA. 3. We ignore RP most of the time in this arena, allowing full access to beaties to hunt and items to be crafted. If we have people making +4 swords, then we have high-level wizards (or Arena libraries) available for cheap scribing of spells. Why makes us waste money on scrolls when theoretically, we should be given the same license of full availability as anyone else? 4. I agree they get the AC bonus w/o ACP (good ability, worth the +3), but they are still wearing armor.. they couldn't be wearing morearmor on top of that... so no monk madness (I also don't think that a 13k item should be giving the Wsdom bonus to AC... but I can see that it only makes monk's and non-armor using Druid's the happiest... few cleric's would give up full plate ;)) So, No, the druid is not considered unarmored. 1a. Didn't see the addendum to MW Tools and Ride, I vote A (Yes) to allowing Ride as well. 5. As for Red Wizard.. I can't decide either way, C (Abstain) 6. A. But the caster level requirements should stay, the 120k is unecessary but only powerful casters become liches. The bonuses from the class are otherwise too powerful for a low-level character. But yes, template class for 12-15th levels would work beautifully :)
MotherBast 03-03-04, 04:15 PM	Sorry I'm late... my car broke down, in heavy traffic, durring an earthquake, in the middle of a blizzard, and I had to walk 43 miles barefoot in the snow. I'm hear now though. As far as poll #1 goes, Id vote B, and I would not include ride. For INA, I say YES For #3: Yes, I changed my vote here, because the fighters were unfairly voting this out based on there desire to limit wizards, and not on wether or not this should be possible. For #4: This poll should be null and void. As this has already been ruled apon by WotC, we would be making a house rule to change it. I don't support even voting to change any offical rules. For #5: I agree with LL. YES, to the wiz and to tattoo focus. For #6: Abstain.
Moherajikuyx 03-18-04, 08:46 AM	Hey guys! Expect me to appear really seldomly. Too bad that the real polls can't be used. Oh well. Masterwork Tools: (b) or (c): I'd say both of them Improved natural attack: (b) Copying spells: (b) Wild Armor: I like ToK's argument, that's a no. (b)