Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LLMadCow 07-06-04, 02:16 AM	Well, there has been debate about the Legality of using Shillelagh on a Greatclub. Jindl and I have argued this point back and forth, and I think that my side of the arguement is very solid and that Jindl's has some holes, but I will post my reasons for feeling that Shillelagh SHOULD work on Greatclubs and let Jindl post his reasons for feeling that Shillelagh SHOULD NOT work on Greatclubs. Begin Debate Here! Shillelagh, From the Players Handbook, Page 278 Your own nonmagical club or quarterstaff becomes a weapon with a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls. (A quarterstaff gains this enhancement for both ends of the weapon.) It deals damage as if it were two size categories larger (a Small club or quarterstaff so transmuted deals 1d8 points of damage, a Medium 2d6, and a Large 3d6), +1 for its enhancement bonus. These effects only occur when the weapon is wielded by you. If you do not wield it, the weapon behaves as if unaffected by this spell. From the Players Handbook, Page 118 Greatclub: A greatclub is a two-handed version of a regular club. It is often studded with nails or spikes or ringed by bands of iron. This VERY CLEARLY states that the greatclub is a two-handed version of a regular club. Also take into consideration the second line which says it is often studded with nails or spikes or ringed by bands of iron; often does not mean always. Please take note that not all weapons are described in the SRD. So, if one was to merely look at the picture in the PHB, then they would see Big Metal Spikes; from there, they should also READ THE DESCRIPTION, on page 118, for further details! Points to ponder: 1. Would a larger creature be prevented from using Shillelagh on their Club just because they are too big? 2. All of this information is in the PHB and is not world setting specific. 3. Stating what type of weapon it is, simple or martial, is merely an aspect of what type of training is needed to use it. Take, for example, the Bastard Sword: Exotic or Martial? It all depends on how you are weilding it - one-handed or two-handed. One-handed = EWP, two-handed = MWP.
rich2939 07-06-04, 10:51 AM	Not that my opinion will hold much sway here (I'm still working up my first character), I'm totally with you on this one MadCow.
rich2939 07-06-04, 11:26 AM	edit: double post
Jindl 07-06-04, 11:28 AM	Here's my recent response from the Tavern thread: Originally posted by Jindl @ LL - Club is a specific weapon. Greatclub is a different, specific weapon. One is a simple weapon, the other is a martial weapon. Different proficiencies for different weapons. As for a greatclub simply being a larger club (and thus 2 handed), if it were a club sized to be two handed {ie. one size category larger}, it would deal 1d8 damage, not 1d10. No, a greatclub is a different weapon, just like a greataxe is different from a battleaxe. To this I would add the following: The Bastard Sword analogy doesn't work. A bastard sword has the same weight, cost, base damage, and threat range regardless of whether it is wielded in one hand as an exotic weapon or in two hands as a martial weapon. You'll also note that the bastard sword has only a single entry in the weapons table, regardless of how it is wielded. A greatclub has a different cost, weight, base damage, and weapon proficiency than a club. It also has its own entry in the Weapon's table. The greatclub is clearly a different weapon than a club. Indeed the very text you quote to support your argument "a two-handed version of a regular club" says that a greatclub is different than a normal club. Just like a greatsword is a two-handed version of a longsword. Or a greataxe is a two-handed version of a battleaxe. Or a throwing axe is just a version of a hand axe which has been properly balanced for throwing. Different version means different weapon. The spell description specifically lists two weapons: quarterstaff and club. It does not mention greatclub because it does not work for that weapon. -Jindl
Battousai2005 07-06-04, 01:10 PM	This is a tough call. The problem is that, IMHO, Shilleglah was meant as a way of buffing up two weapons, club and staff, that a) Cost nothing b) Kinda suck c) Anyone can use The issue is that a greatclub is a bit better than these items. I'm pretty sure that as far as game rules and practicality are concerned, this should not be allowed. Still, that's me, and LL is LL. Lets hear some more opinions.
SnarkHunter 07-07-04, 12:00 AM	For Jindl's reasons' ( and Batt's suggestions of balance) I agree. God, I remember when a cleric with a potion of it and a staff bashed in De Berneirs face.
Druid Roxors 07-07-04, 12:52 AM	Club ¡= Great Club Definately.
LLMadCow 07-07-04, 04:29 PM	The problem I see with stating that the Greatclub is not a club is that there is nothing to compare this uniqure situation to. There is no spell for Swords and Axes, or Maces and Hammers, or anything else, for that matter. By definition a Greatsword is a Sword, a Greataxe is an Axe and a Greatclub is a Club. The spell Shillelagh does not exclude the Greatclub, nor does it make any numerical reference to the idea that there are only two very specific items it can be used on. Maybe someone should contact WoTC support and ask them if the Greatclub is considered a club, for purposes of Shillelagh...?