Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ethendril 03-04-04, 01:12 PM	I'd like to see a uniform system for Masterwork items. Some people use it, some don't. Some take more liberty with it than others. I don't really care too much if it's allowed or not (although I lean toward no), but I just want to pay 50 gp for every one of my skills that it's allowed in so I can even the playing field. Any other thoughts?
Rosella 03-04-04, 01:37 PM	tools of 50 gp to increase skills are always allowed. Just get a plausible explanation for roleplaying purposes, otherwise any skill can be adjusted with a +2 bonus by spending 50 gp on tools.
Arstimis 03-04-04, 01:44 PM	I dont really think i like the idea of them. But they are legal by PHB rules. If used i think they should take up one of the slots a magic item would (boots, cloak, ring, gloves, and the others). It would make them more balanced. i.e. MW silent slippers (+2 to move silently, but take up slot). If you start using them as unslotted items, that makes it too unbalanced
Ethendril 03-04-04, 01:46 PM	Originally posted by Rosella tools of 50 gp to increase skills are always allowed. Just get a plausible explanation for roleplaying purposes, otherwise any skill can be adjusted with a +2 bonus by spending 50 gp on tools. Like I said, I don't really care if we have them, but I have 10 skills I'm going to make something up for if they are allowed.
SnarkHunter 03-04-04, 02:59 PM	I don;t think their a good idea. I'd leave to a) the ones mentioned in the PG, and b)craft skills. And that'd be it.
Jindl 03-04-04, 03:13 PM	I had suggested limiting tools to what I call "trade skills". Trade skills are skills that can earn you money directly. Examples include: 1. Craft skills 2. Profession skills 3. Handle Animal 4. Perform skills Other skills may assist you in gaining wealth, but these 4 earn you money directly based off of the check result. Note that some of these four have special rules for the price of masterwork tools. For example, masterwork craft tools cost 55 gp (listed as masterwork artisan tools in the SRD). Masterwork instruments cost 100gp. So really, the only masterwork tools which should be purchased for 50 gp are handle animal tools and profession tools. I based this idea off of my interpretation for what constitutes a "tool". I considered narrowing the definition to only include items which are used in a trade - hence the limitation to only trade skills. What do you guys think of this proposal? -Jindl
Magagumo 03-04-04, 03:42 PM	I'm all for the tool proposal, i.e. those items which are used outside the arena to craft items, make money, train animals, brew alchemical potions, etc. None of this MW bonus to Move silently for +2, there are clear rules stating that such an item would cost 400 gp... see eyes of the eagle for a +5 item, also Boots & Cloak of Elvenkind... craft items only
Ethendril 03-04-04, 03:48 PM	Originally posted by Magagumo I'm all for the tool proposal, i.e. those items which are used outside the arena to craft items, make money, train animals, brew alchemical potions, etc. None of this MW bonus to Move silently for +2, there are clear rules stating that such an item would cost 400 gp... see eyes of the eagle for a +5 item, also Boots & Cloak of Elvenkind... craft items only Same here.
cellardweller 03-05-04, 11:06 AM	Originally posted by Jindl I had suggested limiting tools to what I call "trade skills". Trade skills are skills that can earn you money directly. ... What do you guys think of this proposal? Another agreement. Johan will just have to go back to using an ordinary pipe.
Ethendril 03-05-04, 11:21 AM	So it looks like lots of people are for it, almost no one against it... How do the Powers That Be make the proposal law?
Moherajikuyx 03-05-04, 03:35 PM	I like that, so it's a law :angel: Joking, but if no one says anything against this I'll make it official. Let's say, sunday is the deadline.
LLMadCow 03-05-04, 04:15 PM	I looked over the entire list of 'examples' and this list includes CLIMBING gear. It also includes PERFORMING gear, i.e. instruments. So, I applied a great deal of thought to the list of skills and what they represent. The conclusion I came to is that some skills require tools. Some skills have an option to use tools. Others, logically speaking, do not require tools. Here I will list the few skills that I think DO NOT deserve MW tools and my reasoning... Balance: Unless you are tightrope walking and using that 10' pole in comba, forget it. Bluff: Social interacton that does not require, or even suggest, the use of tools. Concentration: If you read the description of when it is to be used, you'd have to make a DEX check to keep smoking the pipe. Diplomacy: See Bluff. Gather Information: See Diplomacy. Hide: What are you going to do? Wear camoflague? In the arena? 'Don't mind me, I'm an extra rock!" Intimidate: 'Grrr. Look at my big axe! Grr.' I might allow this under the use of disguise. Jump: Air Jordans? Spring shoes? Whatever... Listen: Hearing aids? Maybe if you wore HUGE ear cups that act like animal ears, but they would have a penalty based on direction. Face the wrong way and miss everything. Use a move action to change the way they point. Search: Huh? Sense Motive: Ditto. Lie detector? Sleight of Hand: Huh? Speak Language: Huh? MW Common/Dwarven Dictionary? Spellcraft: Whatever. Spot: Binoculars? Use Magic Device: Um.... No. Tumble: Padded clothing? Sure. Excpetions that need to be noted: Any skill that is modified by Dex would lose the bonus from the MW equipment according to the AC penalty of the armor worn. Just my two cents.
sshuit 03-05-04, 05:16 PM	I agree with you with a few exceptions : Originally posted by LLMadCow Hide: What are you going to do? Wear camoflague? In the arena? 'Don't mind me, I'm an extra rock!" Actually that works very nicely. Camoflauge is actually used by most hunters / military for the terrain they are working in. Having the appropriate coloured gear does make it easier to hide. Intimidate: 'Grrr. Look at my big axe! Grr.' I might allow this under the use of disguise. Again, many tribal warriors, samurai and other groups used frightful masks / helmets in combat to scare their opponents and make them fear the power of the warrior behind the mask. Sleight of Hand: Huh? Again. World class pickpockets will have special knives / tools / razors for slitting purses open without detection. They exist in real life, why not in the arena? .
sshuit 03-05-04, 05:18 PM	PS. Calling the thread "Stupid MW stuff" is a little biased don't you think? Kinda like calling the US elections "The Democrats vs the stupid redneck mouth breather in 2004"
Ethendril 03-05-04, 05:26 PM	Originally posted by sshuit PS. Calling the thread "Stupid MW stuff" is a little biased don't you think? Kinda like calling the US elections "The Democrats vs the stupid redneck mouth breather in 2004" Naming the thread "Stupid MW stuff" was just a nod to Mo's Official Declaration that some of these things were "stupid." I think "Overly Creative MW stuff" or even "Non-Core MW stuff" would be more appropriate.
Arstimis 03-05-04, 05:54 PM	Originally posted by sshuit and LLMadCow I agree with you with a few exceptions : Hide: What are you going to do? Wear camoflague? In the arena? 'Don't mind me, I'm an extra rock!" Actually that works very nicely. Camoflauge is actually used by most hunters / military for the terrain they are working in. Having the appropriate coloured gear does make it easier to hide. Can you explain what type of camoflague you would use in the arena. Both gladiators know what there is and isnt. I agree with the other things, that is why i suggested the use of slotted items. Pick pocket tools wouldnt take up a slot, but you would have to hold them in place of a weapon. Mask...takes the place of glasses, and maybe even helm. If the items make sense to give bonuses, then maybe they should...but you should have to hold it to use it. Like LLMadCows suggestion for the listen thing. Sure, binoculars can help with spot. If you want to spend your time sheathing your weapon, pulling them out, looking through, and adjusting them, then finally spotting and putting them away, then pull out weapon. I personally think Jindl's suggestion is the better one, but if people think they should be allowed to use it cause its logical, then they should have to spend time and effort to use it...it shouldnt just be worn, and give bonuses
Battousai2005 03-05-04, 10:37 PM	@MadCow: i had a thought. Just a few jokes really:D Balance: maybe an umbrella? Bluff: Where does this even come into the Arena? How bout Masterwork Makeup? Consentration: well, like i said. A pipe would make more penalties then not. A masterwork meditative gas then. Diplomacy: Masterwork "Diplomacy for Idiots, copyright, me" agreed, stupid. Who takes this skill here anyway? Hide: actually, a cloak like the hobits have in lord of the rings might do nicely. as galadrial says(was it her? Maybe someone else.), they are not magic Intimidate: Maybe a masterwork ugly mask... Listen: actually, a hearing aid might work. Something like a large funnel or bullhorn. Search: Magnifying glass:D Sense motive: again, who takes this anyway? Slight of hand: gloves anyone? Another odd man out skill Speak language: Has alwas been, is, and always will be a useless skill. Actually, a dictionary might work... Spellcraft: Hmm. Masterwork... Ok i cant think of anything for this one, but i will. Really! Spot: Binoculars? Id settle for adrenal stimulents. Use magic device: How bout this? Masterwork Owners manuel Tumble: lalalalala. How bout masterwork gyroscope? Notice you didn't mention survival. Oh who cares really. Some of these I agree with, but some i don't. Another big rouge skill you forgot was move silently. Honestly, for hide and move silently, cloak and boots of the elvenkind. But otherwise, its is listed in the PHB that specific tools exist for these skills. I dunno. Seems pretty regular to me... Anyway, this is most likely going to turn into another big Elder Mod discussion. Do me a favor. Can all the senior mods vote on it this time?
sshuit 03-05-04, 11:28 PM	Since you can only hide in the cover of shadows or rocks I guess some kinda earth toned cammo with the same grains as the rocks / pillars in the arena. I mean they even have desert camoflauge. And there ain't anything to hide behind in the desert. It's about breaking up your outlines and trying to choose colours that blend in. As far as moving silently, that might include special shoes, special armor / weapon ties to prevent clinking, or even special holsters for your potions so they don't clink together. sshuit Originally posted by Arstimis Can you explain what type of camoflague you would use in the arena.
Jindl 03-07-04, 06:24 PM	@LLMadCow (and others) - My list of "trade skills" was meant only to refer to tools that can be bought under the general "masterwork tool" category. Other types of tools do exist, and are specifically listed. Such as masterwork thieves tools which would help with open locks and disable device, the magnifying glass which helps with search checks, or the military saddle which helps with ride checks. I was simply trying to limit overly creative usage of the "Tool, masterwork 50 gp" entry in the PHB. I suggested limiting these tools to the "trade skills" some of which are already represented elsewhere by "Artisan's tools" or "Musical Instrument, masterwork". -Jindl
Battousai2005 03-07-04, 06:36 PM	Question for everyone. Since it seems that the item are now being disallowed, what about those of us who already have them? I didn't get to use the items on my last fight(not blaming Arti, i understand his position) and while it didn't cost me anything, it might have. Can we sell these items back for full price, or are we going to have to sell them at half?
Jindl 03-07-04, 06:45 PM	This will be a general rule: If an item is disallowed by Elder Mod vote, that item may be refunded at full value, as long as its primary function was made useless by the vote. For example: Voliana may sell back her mw slippers of +2 move silently because the primary function was made useless. Iron could not sell back his horseshoes of speed at full value after it was decided that his megaraptor couldn't wear them, because his horse had alread worn them. The primary function (helping his horse) was not made useless. So Iron sold the shoes back at half value. Make sense? -Jindl
Battousai2005 03-07-04, 07:19 PM	@ Jindl: Yah, seems pretty clear. So since i never used either of my masterwork hide/MS tools, i can refund them for full price.