Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Caterane 02-03-06, 06:35 AM	This thread is to discuss and clarify some of the recent concerns regarding the use of an online roller. I've read the comments in the FotW thread and NiQil has already put it to a vote in the Community thread (don't want to clutter it hehe). I'm surprised about the backlash but let us talk about it before drawing consequences. Perhaps we can understand each other's arguments better. I'd like to begin with the reasons for using it. Once in a while I get a PM with the request that <name> should not pitlord any of his/her fights again; other PMs request only this and that pitlord because he uses the online roller. We have also lost regulars because they were sure that their pitlord fixes the rolls. We have roommates and friends here, colleagues and of course also those that don't like each other. For example, when Mitza and Macbrea appeared on this board, they immideately send me a PM that they know each other and should not pitlord the other one's fight (to name a possitive example). I'm not saying that everyone is fixing rolls but it had surely happened, and more importantly, it is possible. The online roller takes care of all that. Another reason is to make the rules for running characters here are uniform. Miniquests and Quests, Campaigns, Seperate thread fights all require the use of the online roller. On every other board it is mandatory. Infact, it is an integral part in the whole online RPG community. It gives us a level of professionalism. So far, so good. Now I've also read the complaints and I would like to address them. The main argument I've heard is that Online rollers are slower than real dice. Perhaps. Fortunately we have a standing offer from Dracazar to program a CoCo Online Roller. Those of you who've used his map generator know that you don't have to click back and forth between pages but just click on a button and the result appears along with the link, and this link is even in tag form already so you just have to copy/paste it with CTRL+C and CTRL+V. There's neither browsing nor entering links. Argument 2 is that you have to enter the rolls (1 D 20) and typing 4 letters would use up a lot of extra time. Again, I want to point at Drac's offer. He could just generate some 'Dice buttons' where you click on. Need a D20? Click on the button. This should be no slower than using real dice anymore. It's 1-click compared to one hand-roll. Another argument is that you cannot correct a roll if you've made a mistake. There are also two good solutions. Solution 1 is that you hand write the missing bonus into the fight (Example: (14)+3+2+4+2(flank) = Ac25) which is no extra work (you have to add the modifiers anyway). Solution 2 is that you only roll/link the die roll and add the modifiers by hand - again, adding the modifiers is a work you have to do anyway. There's no extra work compared to real dice. And I want to make another proposal on how to speed it up even more: Instead of linking every roll, we can say that Drac's roller creates a database for all rolls so that you really have to do only one link for the whole fight! To summarize your new workload: You have to make one mouse click (the click on the die you're using ...instead picking up a real die and let it drop again). Other concerns: If I wanna cheat I use a different name until the roller produces the results I want. This doesn't work at all. The first roll is the initiative and the starting box. Then you roll some spot checks and on round 3 there's suddenly a crit you don't like. So you go back all the way and begin from scratch with your fight. That's super-extra work no one would do. Additionally, we can close this gap easily with Master Dracazar's wonder roller: you enter the names and ECL of both gladiators and the roller creates the name itself. I really think that you should give it a try and see if it is really so much extra work as you all fear. Perhaps the invisible dice is, perhaps the other online rollers are, but we can make our own dice roller and we can make it as fast as using your real dice. Okay, please give me your opinion on that and please try to think about what I said instead of shooting it down right away. Cat PS: And as Telin said, it saves the lifes of your children :D
kedi 02-03-06, 06:49 AM	I like Online Dice, and I believe yes, it's actually much easier (for me, anyway) to use. Also it looks better, and is clean and all that jazz. I'm supporting the use of online dice, but I just don't likie the majority voting against it, threatening to quit pitlording and etc.
DSugui 02-03-06, 07:05 AM	I am not against online rollers, I am against its use being mandatory. I think if all players agree, then the use of regular dice should be allowed, but if one of them requires the online roller, then the pitlord must use it. Like, when sendind the tatics, the player says if he allows the use of regular dice or requires online rollers. That way I think its more democratic.
Macbrea 02-03-06, 07:34 AM	At this point, I don't really care either way. If the result is we are going to loose a bunch of pitlords for putting in a die roller then I am against requiring it. I personally will be using one each time I pitlord. For exactly the reason listed above, I occationally pitlord for Mitza, who is my girlfriend. And would like people to be able to verify each die roll I make. Almost always you can look up my die rolls by the formatting I use for the die roll name: Example: Sliver vs Karen fight run on feb 1 would end up looking like SvK0201 as a naming scheme. In truth, I don't care if someone doesn't use a die roller. I trust members of the community to generally play out the fights however they are going to happen. I have mostly given up on arguing fights to make a pitlord rewrite history a few hundred times also. Because, the average fight takes about 4 hour to run. With someone editing a fight 4 to 5 times it can extend out to 12 to 16 hours. That is what kills off number of pitlords the fastest. PS: Don't worry too much about Mitza and Myself. We end up running our fights as strick to the rules as possible. And delight in beating up on each others characters perfectly fine. I am as likely to vote against my character or hers as I am for them. I run as close to the rules as possible. What we do kid each other about those is each other being a Lazy pitlord and not running the others fight on time!
lonewolf 02-03-06, 07:47 AM	While I personally always use online rollers and will continue to do so, I am also against it beeing mandatory. If a pitlord wants to screw me, he probably can anyway(misinterpreting tactics, ...), but I trust people here enough that they dont fudge their rolls. And the strong reaction from a few people with understandable concerns is enough for me, to think that its just not worth it. And btw: with the current shortage of pitlords we need more incentives for people to pitlord, not less(mandatory online rollers, less map credits, ...).
waywreth 02-03-06, 08:17 AM	I am not against online rollers, I am against its use being mandatory. I'm on board with this. I don't mind people using them (and even prefer it) but I can see why some people want the option of using their home dice. The only thing I think we should require is that you have to list the roll... aka 1d20+14=27 for example.
Maraxus 02-03-06, 08:27 AM	Hm, I had not expected, that players really claim pitlords to fix rolls, or demand to get a pitlord that uses online die rollers. If it is the case, that's definitly an point for making them mandatory. (I wouldn't want those players to be forced to tell the pitlord directly, that they don't trust them). I always use online rollers. Knowing some math I know, that my rolls are not that mistical. It is unprobable, that the rolls not favor one of the players. - But still, they sometimes look wrong, and there I'd like the proof. I had usually used another online roller then the common invisiblecastle - again for the reason, that it was faster to use (An online roller should have the roller fields/buttons on the same page as the results, so you don't need to go back each time (but can go back, if you - for example - want to make the same comment as 3 rolls before)) But then again, I was hit by another argument against online rollers: The server is sometimes very slow - or even compleatly down for an hour or something. With a good (serverspeed) online roller, I'm about as fast as with real dice, but I copy/paste a lot. I'm also not linking rolls but only give the roller and the game-name (I think a nicely commented result page is better handleable then each roll linked seperatly, also for players looking for mistakes) - but still, the argument stands, that you can't use them offline. So, it is "cheat-prevention vs. slow die-roll-users and offline-pitlorders." Both points are valid.
Pittbull 02-03-06, 09:01 AM	I planed to use to online-roller everytime. I used my own dice several times and never got any issues, but I like online-roled fight more as a player. Having a slow internet-connection really bothers, if you are forced to use the roller. That is my only issue. The only thing I don't like, is to link every single roll, a link to the list should be enough.
Caterane 02-03-06, 09:45 AM	Guys, you don't respond to my point - you even ignore it. Please reread what I wrote. If Dracazar can program it, the new coco online roller will be as fast as your own dice. Please respond to that if you want to object. Just writing "I don't like it" doesn't help this discussion.
Warclone 02-03-06, 10:09 AM	I think online rollers should be mandatory. The simple fact is, it's not that hard to use them. It probably just a tad harder than rolling IRL, or MUCH easier depending on if you have to roll somthing en masse. Is that tad harder sometimes worth it? A definite yes. If I knew everybody here in person, offline rolling would be fine. But I don't. And I do not feel comfortable taking some guy's word for it that I rolled a 1 in a critical situation. Show me. If you were a DM, you are allowed to roll in secret because you are allowed to fudge rolls. However, you are not a DM here and you are not allowed to fudge rolls. Allowing offline rolling is like letting a player roll under the table where nobody can see and then he reports his roll to the rest of the group. "Oh, what do ya know, I rolled a 20!" In the spirit of keeping CoCo like a campaign (legitimacy aside), anyone who is not allowed to fudge a roll (aka everyone) should be forced to roll publically (aka online roller). I was very disappointed to begin with when I heard online rolling was not mandatory. Please, restore the legitimacy of the CoCo!
Mal-2 02-03-06, 10:10 AM	If Dracazar can program it, the new coco online roller will be as fast as your own dice. Please respond to that if you want to object. Well, okay. First, I don't believe that Drac's online roller will be as fast as real dice. I'm sure he'll do his best, and hopefully it will be faster than Invisible Castle (which can be frustratingly slow at times), but we're still talking about a web application with a database backend. Second, I don't see that having an online, auditable, record of die rolls is worth losing a bunch of pitlords over. Sometimes people run fights offline. Some people just prefer to have dice in hand to roll. Sometimes internet connections are spotty on either the client or the server side. The second point is the one that convinces me. We already have a shortage of pitlords. I think we lose more than we gain by forcing the issue. I'd rather see some sort of incentive for using an online roller than excluding those people who don't want to use one.
DTFarstar 02-03-06, 10:13 AM	*shrug* My only comment is I have a really crappy ISP, when I'm connected it is really fast(cable), but it blinks in and out ALL the time. Which causes problems with using stuff consistently online. As I said, I'm really not going to be pitlording much anymore because I can't seem to run a fight where there isn't at least one player that ends up ****** at me and I don't need the hassle and they don't need the irritation. Anyway, just saying sometimes it is a real irritation for me to use an online roller simply because I can barely stay connected to the internet for 2 minutes out of every 10. Usually I get less than that during these days. So... that is my only real objection. You'll find I have used online rollers in the majority of my fights, only when a day like that fell on a day when I had available to PL did I use my own dice and the results were the same or less spectacular(number-wise) than most of the time when I use IC so I hope no one accused me of cheating. If Drac can make an good easy to use and easy to link roller, then fine, otherwise I will continue annotating my rolls in IC well, and just including the numbers in the fight and linking to the IC list. -Chris
Huan 02-03-06, 10:24 AM	I have been in support of mandatory online dice rolling since the beginning, my reasons being akin to the ones Caterane already addressed. I have heard both sides of the debate for the longest like many here, but I still stand firm on support it. I don't blame people for their problems, but I do ask that they not use it as an excuse or fuel for an opposing viewpoint. Drac's application, if faster, by all means go forward with it. As for the threat of loss of pitlords, I want to see the actual numbers before making assumptions or drawing conclusions: IF YOU ARE A PITLORD WHO WOULD HONESTLY QUIT AND NEVER PITLORD AGAIN BECAUSE OF MANDATORY ONLINE ROLLING, PLEASE RAISE YOUR HAND.
Erithmu 02-03-06, 10:55 AM	While I do not pitlord much anymore (mostly due to school) I can see the arguements for both sides. So i'll weigh in whatever weight I carry. Drac's Roller: Judging from his work with the map maker it might be easy to just incorporate the roller with the map maker, although I would think that having separate sites would probably be better in the long run. I would probably have to see the functionality of the roler before I could make a opinion one way or the other. Although with his past track record I'm willing to give him the benifit of the doubt. I think that doing a blank d20 roll and then adding the modifiers in the fight would make for ease of editing, as I have been noticing (espcially in the campaigns and in the certain 1 hit builds) that there are a large number of modifers to deal with. It might be nice to have a multiple option available for some of the dice (d6's come to mind). my 2cp: See how the roller turns out, and give it a testing week. There is still a large part of the community that uses an online roller anyways. I think there should be some room to allow for the use of real dice as long as they are well documented. (ex: intermitent Inet, or inet goes down but all the information has been moved locally.)
Usurpator 02-03-06, 11:02 AM	@Huan: This is what you appear to be saying to me (especially because you bolded it): If you don't feel strongly enough about the rolling matter to give up Pitlording forever for it, then your opinion really doesn't matter since we are going through with it anyway (unless enough Pitlords quit that is). This attitude is one of the reasons I have to quit as a Pitlord, since it is my only means left to express my displeasure at this way of doing business. If you ask me, the question should be reversed: "Would a majority of the community have more fun when we implement mandatory online rolling?"
SoulLord 02-03-06, 11:06 AM	Huan what would you gain by making such a comment? let's not antagonize the pitlords who prefer for any reason not to use an online roller. As I stated before, use of the online dice roller should be Rewarded not obligued. If a new site is so great and user friendly and saves time etc... I'm sure more and more pitlords will use it without them bieng obligued to do so.
TelinArtho 02-03-06, 11:29 AM	PS: And as Telin said, it saves the lifes of your children Hey - keep my kids out of this. And I want to reiterate that while I use an online roller - I do not think it should be mandatory. I use it because it is more convenient for me - but if it is more convenient for someone else to use real dice - then that should be an option.
Macbrea 02-03-06, 11:36 AM	I also use a online dice roller and would use Drac's (assuming he can get it to work in firefox :P) . If it was set up in a fashion to return a set of dice rolled and keep a consolidated list as per invisible castles method. I do however feel that if this does result in a bunch of people quitting pitlording. I don't want it to be mandatory. We cannot afford to have a bunch of fights with no pitlords. As it stands, this week we had a shortage of pitlords. And removing benefits of pitlording doesn't help get more. Most of us use credits for silly stuff that doesn't really hurt the game. By reducing that benefits and creating mandatory requirements that things get used. It results in less and less people wanting to do it.
NiQil 02-03-06, 11:39 AM	@ Cat & everyone discussing the topic: I have updated the Community Vote polls results so far. I realize not everyone has voted there, but so far the results are overwhelming. Take a look for yourself. As for me, I have maintained since I arrived here that online rolling should not be mandatory. I have a slow computer and a dial up connection, and I can't even access Invisible Castle on most days. If I ever pick up pitlording again, it would be with my own dice. If I have to roll with an online roller, then I simply won't ever be pitlording again. Not only are my own dice faster for me, but an even more important reason is that it's what I want to do. This feels very much like we are making a new rule just for the sake of making a new rule, rather than making a new rule because everyone wants this rule in place. This, combined with the other new rules that have come down the pike recently that have felt the same way (like we are making rules for the sake of making rules), are driving people away from here or causing them to phase their involvement way down. Shouldn't that, more than any other reason you could argue in favor of making online rollers mandatory, be the issue you look at when making this decision? If the vast majority of us don't want it to be mandatory, and multiple people have stated that their involvement will go way down or they will walk away altogether, then I don't see how this could even be under discussion. This forum lives or dies based on the generosity of its members. To go out of our way to alienate so many does nothing but hurt the forum.
SauroGrenom 02-03-06, 11:44 AM	I hope that my comments to follow are considered constructive. I will address the online roller features and usefullness, but I also want to make a few points about the truely central issue in this broader discussion. That central issue is making the use of online roller a requirement. It seams from Cat's first and second posts that what you want to do is make clear your reasons for implimenting this new requirement and discuss is the ways to make it easier to use an online roller. That is a great topic for disucssion, but it sidestepps the issue. Your first and second posts contain the assumption that there is no longer a need to discuss about the online roller requirement. You assume that requirement is final and we should now buisy ourselves with making the implimentation of that requirement as easy as possible. If that is the case it will have little effect on the way I pitlord because I already use Invisible Castle, but I still don't think it's a good idea. I think coding a CoCo online roller is definately a good idea regardless of the online roler requirement. If Drak is willing to put the work into coding it and providing the features and ease of use desired by the community, then I would use that service. I would do so because I like to have accountability and to have all my fights demonstrate impartiality without question. I already go throught the time and effort necessary to use Invisible Castle, but if there was a better and faster roller I would use it. A convention for use can be implimented as well. So perhaps we can all decide to record the modifiers outside of the initial rolls (as Cat demonstrated), so that changes can be made easily. Or we can make Drak's roller have a login that allows us to change the modifier's listed without changing the random numbers that are generated. However, I don't think that using such things should be mandatory. They should be encouraged because there are obvious benefits, but a requirement is stiffling and doesn't serve our community as well as the diversity of pitlording style does. Those who are adamant about not using online roller have there reasons and as a general rule are experienced pitlords who serve our community with there seasoned approach to pitlording. In a few examples they are set in there ways, and are unwilling to change the well worked out system they use to pitlord. I can understand that some players may feel uneasy with that, but everyone is both a player and a pitlord. We are a small community, so treating someone badly or pitlording unfairly comes back around in a place as small as this. I've had several fights where my characters have been beaten by bad rolling or crazy luck on my opponent's part. We all have had simular things happen to our characters even over a table top. I have never accused anyone of cheating nor have I realy taken a loss that seriously, thought I have argued in the FoTW thread. Mature adults just take the hits and go on. It's not like your character realy dies in the CoCo anyway. And it is just a game. Encouraging people to give online rolling a try is a great idea. Simular to making tax insentives to buy hybid cars in the US. Cars are better than horse in many ways, they are faster and more powerfull. As an administrator it may be a pain to deal with piles of horse dung and slow moving horses on your roads, and you'll probably get complaints about that. But I don't think that is a valid justification for making cars a requirement and horses illegal. If you do that, then all the people who like to ride horses will just move away or get realy angry. Your streets will be cleaner and traffic may move faster, but I think you will have lost a valuable element of diversity. In light of the apparent arguments about dice rolls and accusations of cheating in favor of one combatant, an appropreat incentive should be given to pitlords who use online rollers. It was proposed that the extra credit for maps also require using an online roller. This seams reasonable to me. It is true that linking rolls brings a level of professionalism simular to what maps offer, but we are not professional gamers here. We are hobbiests. A professional level of accountibility should be rewarded, but not required of our pitlords. Set the bar for "Professionalism" to include both maps and online rollers. Those new and old pitlords who want to have a professional display of there fights will link rolls and make maps and be rewarded for there professionalism. Each additional requirement may seam incrimental to us who are already using these aspects in the fights we pitlord, but for a newcommer each is more daunting than the last. The online rolling requirement will represent a barrier to some new inexperienced people who may have been considering pitlording, and that would be a bad thing. Having options is a great thing, and wherever possible the various options should be preserved. I am in favor of making an easy to use and fast online roller, and I will use it if Drak makes one. Such a service will naturally draw pitlords to use it, and coupled with a incentive to do so it will rapidly draw pitlords to using it. I am also in favor of encouraging pitlords to use an online roller, but I am against making using this a requirement. Sauro
SoulLord 02-03-06, 11:46 AM	Just Shooting some Random thoughts..... Would an offline roller (previosuly tested by Caterane) that can upload the results to an online roller or database be a good enough substitute for online rolling?
Huan 02-03-06, 12:09 PM	@Usurpator You misunderstand. I only said that in order to eliminate the extremity and actually see if anyone would flat out quit if such a effect took place. Some people say pitlords would quit if it became mandatory, and I wished to see if that were true, and if so, how dramatic it would be. That's it, mere curiosity (I only bolded it so it would be noticed). By no means am I concluding negotiations. Please don't second guess my attitude towards the issue in such a negative light.
Usurpator 02-03-06, 12:16 PM	@Usurpator You misunderstand. I only said that in order to eliminate the extremity and actually see if anyone would flat out quit if such a effect took place. Some people say pitlords would quit if it became mandatory, and I wished to see if that were true, and if so, how dramatic it would be. That's it, mere curiosity (I only bolded it so it would be noticed). By no means am I concluding negotiations. Please don't second guess my attitude towards the issue in such a negative light. Huan, I am sorry, I don't mean to imply that I know what your attitude is. I just meant to point out how your message comes across (to me personally). I just didn't understand that if it is just 'mere curiosity' from you, and considering this appears to be a senstive issue, why you would choose to phrase your inquiry in such an manner and then bolded it.
Huan 02-03-06, 12:27 PM	@Usurpator My apologies, then, as I insensitively bolded words in error. I did not wish to create confusion. Though I cast my vote, I must add I am fine no matter which ruling is finalized.
SauroGrenom 02-03-06, 12:30 PM	Deleted
Snommelp 02-03-06, 12:51 PM	IF YOU ARE A PITLORD WHO WOULD HONESTLY QUIT AND NEVER PITLORD AGAIN BECAUSE OF MANDATORY ONLINE ROLLING, PLEASE RAISE YOUR HAND. Here's a hand raised, then. If a player is so mistrustful of me that he has to see and verify my dice rolls, odds are he will look for the tiniest incentive for me to have to rerun the fight anyway; linking the rolls will not help, because he has already decided before the fight is run that I cannot be trusted. He will be looking for problems, even on the most minute level. Caterane, your key argument seems to be that, once this new roller is available, things will not be as difficult. That still leaves two problems that I see. First, what are we supposed to do until that roller is available? The concerns against online rollers have merit, and until the new roller is operational, we need a better answer than "wait until the new roller comes out" if you're planning on implementing the change now. Second, a new online roller does not help me in the slightest if my internet connection dies and I still need to run the fight. You have not addressed that issue.
Ayrynthyn 02-03-06, 05:25 PM	An additional concern is that one more external link in all of the fights on the battles thread may make that thread nearly unloadable. When drac first unleashed the Mapper on the masses (no disrespect Drac, your efforts deserve to be lauded for that mapping stuff), i timed out several times on my less than robust DSL connection from home. Only from work and after several minutes of load time would that thread come up. I couldnt imagine someone on dial up giving that a go. Before making rule changes based on vaporware, we should prototype and test throughly...even then. Even then... I don't blame people for their problems, but I do ask that they not use it as an excuse or fuel for an opposing viewpoint. if i didnt have a problem with the proposal, there would be no need for me to offer a counter point. By that token, my problem with with it is the only fuel for my opposing viewpoint. Again, my stance is you shouldnt make the dice roller mandatory. Would i quit if you did so... no, but i will be forced to pawn off fights, and turn in late fights more often. Always, no. Frequently, no... but more often than i am now. To date i've only pawned off one fight, and had one run real close to the deadline. 3 others i had to run with real dice. That's roughly 1/3 of the fights i've ran since november. Perhaps for the greater good, i would remove my name from the pitlording ranks. Not to make a point or stick it to any one, but because that wouldnt be fair to 1 out of 3 of my gladiators to receive a late fight....
Skojar 02-03-06, 06:12 PM	Here's what I'd like to see in an online roller: 1) go to a seperate site like with the map tool. 2) the site produces links to a program that will generate the same results every time, for example it might have the time stamp (for the randomizer), the die used, and the sequence postion. 3) I would like to see the result, enter the link in-line, (see my last fight for an example of whiat I mean by in-line (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8331611))and not know the next die result, all without leaving notepad and a browser. The result will be that whereas to date I've simply typed Attack=[13]+5-2(range)=16, I'll be typing Attack=[[ url=http://server.pl?9870985,1,20,12]13[/url]+5-2(range)=16 In the former example I simply read off the number on the top of my die and typed it. In the latter I've requested the 12th d20 roll in the sequence produced for my fight's time stamp, the page generated the result (13) and the link (for me to cut and paste, just like with the map program). This way the people who think I'm cheating can click on the link and see that the numbers match. The format of the link is: [ url=diceRollerServer? uniqueTimeStampForEachFight, number OfDice, typeOfDie, sequentialIdentifier ]dieResultFromRoller[/url]] modifiers = overallResult. Now this sucks, but it allows for people to check up on me. The ideal would be some in-line roller, so we could just enter some bbCode like: '1d20+5-2' but it would be much more difficult to make that generate the same numbers each time, and you'd have to constantly post to see the results. The best I've seen is the thing with just generating a list of results for each die, and to run off-line you just print out the list and check them off as you use them, but not only does this feel stupid trying to do this as a PitLord (I keep thinking that my decisions are being affected by already knowing the outcome), but it only makes it slightly harder to cheat, and as a player I absolutely hate reading fights that don't have the modifiers and rolls listed in-line. Just having a list linked and the results makes me feel short-changed. In short, I am discouraged by the mandate to use online rollers, because I can see no purpose but to insure integrity. Firstly, they don't do that very well, and secondly I should think that wouldn't be necessary. However, if Drac does as great a job as he did with the map tool (still looking for suggestions on that?) then the result might be within the realm of usability. Of course unless the new roller is by some miracle much much easier than I can imagine, then you can probably count me among those no longer PitLording. I'm a newcomer, it's true, but then the qeustion would be why a newcomer who was so excited about participating get turned off so quickly?
Maraxus 02-03-06, 06:18 PM	Guys, you don't respond to my point - you even ignore it. Please reread what I wrote. If Dracazar can program it, the new coco online roller will be as fast as your own dice. Please respond to that if you want to object. Just writing "I don't like it" doesn't help this discussion. Hey, I did respond to your point. My answer was: The user interface can be as fast as you want it to be (and I also said, that I'm not slower rolling with the cstprojectc-online roller then with real dice.) The two problems are internet-connection-speed and pitlords, who don't want to be online for hours. SoulLord: Sounds nice and basicly simple, but making this cheating-save should be some really hard work of programming. One random thought from me: It has been some time ago, that I saw the use of "rolled arrays". Basicly, the pitlord rolls a lot of d20s, d6s and whatever could be needed and takes them in that order. This is one big roll, and after about one minute, the pitlord has his rolls, can go offline and get his roll simply by Alt-Tab-ing into the notepat (which is faster then rolling real dice, too. I did not really like that - compared to rolling the dice with coments describing, what they are rolled for -, but it could be the best compromise we can get here.
SoulLord 02-03-06, 06:29 PM	I'll code a quick prototype but I need the target recipient to tell me what would he need for input as well as work out the interface. But i'm all fod coding that part.
Caterane 02-03-06, 06:49 PM	I can't believe that half of you have a damaged internet connection and that this should be the reason for not making the roller mandatory in the coco. This is also the only argument left after what I wrote. The rest was 'I don't think it should be mandatory and will quit'. Anyway, I'm not oblivious to what the community wants so we leave the online roller requirement be until Dracazar has programmed the coco roller. Then we make two test weeks, and see how it goes. If it turns out to be equally fast then we will have to use it. So Drac, don't leave me in the lurch :D EDIT: On a second thought, I have no idea about dial-up as I never had one. There's also the argument that you want to roll offline because of no flatrate. Well, for those we can use the email roller. He sends you die rolls by the dozens which you have to use in the sent order. All die are in there, and a glance is quicker than an IRL roll.
NiQil 02-03-06, 07:22 PM	Once again Cat...you are already approaching this with the attitude that it will happen, and it's just a question of how to make it work right. What you are failing to see is that we, as a community, do not want mandatory online rolling. The Community vote has proven that. The comments here have proven that. Regardless of the reasons, almost no one wants it to happen. I don't think anyone cares how things are done on other forums, because that has no relevance here. What happens here is what matters. If you continue to ignore what the community as a whole has stated, and stated, and stated, the community will die a slow but painful death as people start to leave. I have counted 5 different people already who will be stepping down from pitlording if you push this into operation. We are already short on pitlords...how can you think that we can really afford to lose that many people, or more? On another note, did you ever stop and think that maybe the fact that the use of an online roller not being mandatory is part of the appeal of this forum? You state that online rollers are the norm on other forums. Did you consider the possibility that this might not be a wanted thing, but no one else has the power to change it like we do? So far the vote on this issue is 2-32 against making online rollers mandatory. I can't fathom how you can ignore that type of feedback, in addition to everything everyone else has said on the issue. As for dial up connections....if you have never had a dial up connection, then you can't possibly have a basis for comparison as to how bad it is on these boards sometimes. The battles thread? Can sometimes take 5+ minutes to load for me. The Character thread? The same. I have a problem even getting on to Invisible Castle half the time. The forum itself is constantly timing out for me. And your solution of emailed rolls doesn't work if you can't get online. Again...how do you account for someone who takes all they need to run a fight offline and runs it from work, or while they are spending time with their family, or something else, and are using their own dice? Emailed rolls is all well and good, but if you can't get online, then you can't get those either. And that means you can't run a fight until you do if you are required to use those numbers. Which, in turn, means that the propensity for late fights goes up that much more. Look at all of the reasons everyone has given however you like, but the bottom line is that, as a community, we don't want mandatory online rollers. Failing to respect that does nothing more than alienate the community.
Skojar 02-03-06, 07:50 PM	Shouldn't it be: 'why should we make this unecessary change' rather than: 'why shouldn't we make this unecessary change'? Or is this thought to be a necessary change? Are we really having that much of a problem with cheaters? I know sometimes I really want something cool to happen in a fight, and the rolls deny me, but you let the dice determine. I may be diasappointed or pleased, but what real incentive do I have to cheat? If it's not necessary, but you just think it would be nice, then I have to question the priorities. There are so many more important things that can be discussed and developed when this is really of no consequence. For the record dial-up is a nightmare and more common than you might think. I switch from cable to dial up routinely and the difference is significant. It is simply much faster and easier to not be connected while I write up a fight, as I use a laptop, but that's not my argument. My argument is this: If some want the option to use actual dice, what real reasons are there for denying them that option? I can't come up with anything, and unless there's an actual problem that this will solve, then I will argue against it's implementation. Furthermore, I won't quit PitLording out of protest or spite, but simply because for me it is less convenient. There is no reason for me to PitLord unless I enjoy it, and so if I'm not enjoying it the simple fact is that I won't be doing it, and teh more I have to abide by unreasonale restrictions and mandates, the less I will enjoy it. PitLords already have to deal with unhappy players, balancing real-life schedules and spending hours writing fights, unpredictable and inconsistent houserules, looking up spells and effects with which they're unfamiliar, late tactics, etc. If a PitLord feels...for whatever reason...that her PitLording life is easier without using an online roller, then I feel that mandating that she change needs to be justified, not the other way around. Because I hadn't imagined that there was actually any problem to cause this mandate, it seemed to serve no purpose but to inconvenience some PitLords. There are all sorts of problems that need attention. There are significant diasagreements on how to handle balance issues, how to interpret the most common of core rules, real communication problems, etc. If on top of those issues you tell me that the CoCo is also rampant with cheaters, well then my opinion is significantly altered.
Book5 02-03-06, 08:28 PM	I would have missed a couple fights if I hadnt been able to "manual override" I prefer to be able to see the rolls, but since I have benifited from the option to not.. I vote thusly. Having Dracazar's super awesome page include a dice roller (thusly negating the need for multiple windows) is really great!! but thats not the issue. Pitlords who don't feel comfortable using the online roller .. are not going to feel comfortable using an online roller. No matter where it is. This is hard to get around, if not simply impossible. If you say "suck it up" most of us will. Its always the old hats that are opposed to change. I use the invisible castle whenever I can really. I don't think the inherint objection of "I don't want to" is going to be solved by dracazar adding a dice roller. ... "Dracazar should add a dice roller. That would be really cool." The more advanced, and the more options provided by the dynamap.. the more attractive it becomes, but some people just love their dice.. or just don't have the inclination... or feel some "offense" at the demand to use the online roller exclusivly. Perhaps mandating the online proceedure as well as mandating a "manual override" methodology maybe... you could increase the credits for running a fight "perfect" and apply a couple of "minor" credit reductions for things such as say: a Pitfight is worth 2 credits -.5 "poorly formatted (player complaint on fights thread)" -.5 "unlinked rolls" -.5 "No maps" -.5 "More than one edit..." -1 "past the deadline" -3 "Massive pitlord failure (heldover due to bad pitlording)" Penalties instead of prohibitions SO - not "technically mandated" but as we like to say in the bizzy world - "strongly encouraged" A thought. We really should stop using the {img} tag to put the image into the fight. The 15 image limit is too severe for this to be a good workflow. We can simply put the hyperlink for the image in as a hyperlink. This will not only allow the page to load faster - allow more images to be linked in one fight (prefereably one every round), but allow the pitlords and players to return to the habit of adding "personal imagery" to thier characters and fights. A tasteful option that seems to be going by the wayside due to the 15 image limit and the dracomap.
King Uther 02-04-06, 02:03 AM	Honestly, I don't feel like the online roller should be mandatory. I prefer it be used in gladiator vs gladiator, as it ensures authenticity. But when I run a simple MQ for an ally or something similar, I always use my own dice. I enjoy it. I'll give this some more thought and reply tomorrow.
Iced 02-04-06, 02:53 PM	Shouldn't be mandatory. Online rollers are well and good, but fights go faster with dice. I use the online roller because it's easier for me, it may not be easier for someone else and I see no reason to limit the use of home dice. ~Iced
Dracazar 02-05-06, 08:18 AM	I'm not in my home/city in these weeks so I'm not online every day, I just readed the discussion. I hope that people against mandatory online roller are not also againt me :) I would like give my efforts to improve CoCo that we all likes. I'll code the roller, I'll give you a beta, you can ask changes, we'll have the our roller. If it is mandatory or not this is another issue. I'll give all my free time to this, even if I have some busy days now (no more than 2 weeks). Work in progress...
klangley 02-06-06, 04:30 AM	I live on a sailboat, so the only internet that reaches across water is wireless from a transmitter about 1/2 mile away. When the tide goes down, my boat drops, relative to that tower, so that an aluminum building comes between me and the tower, cutting or weakening the signal. When it's windy, the boat rocks and my wireless receiver blinks in and out. I've already had to give up online gaming, because it's unfair to my allies to go linkdead in the middle of a tough fight. So fighting with an online roller would make pitlording impossible, and I would not do it. However, since I am new to CoCo and have not yet started pitlording, you would not technically lose an EXISTING pitlord with this requirement. I do plan to give pitlording a try once I am a bit more experienced with CoCo style combat, but only if I can use my own dice. Cateraine, I am frankly amazed that you still maintain that "we will have to do this" if, in Your sole judgement, the new online roller works as well as You hope, ignoring the wishes of 32/34 of those who have expressed a vote. As a tabletop GM, I control what happens in my games, but if 94.11% of my players said they did not want to play by my new house rule, I would not tell them "tough, that's the way we're doing it." Even if I thought it would improve the game to make the change, I would explain to them why I felt that way, ask them to rethink it, and then respect their wishes.