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| Caterane05-25-04, 09:57 AM | This is a discussion I`d like to see everyone participate because it will have heavy impacts on the future of the arena! We are going to reshape the Arena map! The reason behind this is simple: the absolute outcome-deciding importance of initiative. Even at low levels ini is more and more important. A 1st level gladiator buys a CL 7 MM scroll and *wham* win in = win match. Same with fireballed@lvl2. How much do you learn about your build if something like that happens? Right, nothing. On top of that it`s very annoying because you thought long and hard about good tactics which never came to happen because you didn`t even have a chance to act! The higher the level the worser it gets. Solid fog/Acid fog, Evards tentacles, ready actioning archers/fireballers, the list is endless. If you lose ini you`re as good as dead, or seriously handicapped. That sucks and is neither fun nor build testing but luck alone (modified by dex and a certain feat). We once voted on making initiative less important, and it got approved. Mo said something about boxes, other suggestions were a no attack on first round rule, or that giant pillar in the center which no one used because it was optional only. Even the pillar would give the mentioned 2nd lvl gladiator time to cast shield or drink a potion of resist fire, so that he may actually PLAY, and use the tactics he wrote on for so long. The central pillar would be a first step. However, while we`re at it, we have now the chance to make more drastic changes in the map. And this is where you step in: I want to hear your suggestions about what we can change on the map; perhaps building some height differences so that non flyers can get altitude too, or perhaps some hideouts, a wall or two, crenelations? A tower or fortress? Tell me what you have in mind. There`s one thing to consider though: if the map gets too complicated the pitlord (who`s already a tough job on the fight alone) will have too much things to think about, and this doesn`t benefit the CoCo either. I am going to reshape the map based on your suggestions and a following discussion with the Elder Pitlords. And now... ...your turn! Cat Edit: Another thing. You surely all noticed that rogues are rare in the arena, and even then they are always combined with other classes because they are robbed of their main advantage: places to hide. We now have the chance to open the arena for rogues and other stealthy characters. A simple wall - no increase in the pitlords burden - would do wonders, and on top of that prevent fireballs from hitting you from every point in the arena. |
| Arstimis05-25-04, 10:12 AM | If you are talking about not being able to test the build you made, then we should seriously think about implementing the 5x cost for one use items rule. I remember kedi, who got beat twice in a row at level 2 because both his opponents had quall's feather token (whip). All people need is that one time item to get them through that one fight in an arena. if we were to test it in a campaign it wouldnt work because there are more than just one fight. As for the new map. I think it would be a good idea. It would be cool if we added some new interesting things. but i say that if we do that, and a player wants to use it. he needs to put the coordinates of where it is on the map, so it is easier for the mod to get him there. but ya, it would be a cool idea to have a new map. you remember that place you found Mo, i looked at it a little bit and they have a different kind of map. you can look at that for some ideas |
| Caterane05-25-04, 10:18 AM | 5x items are not an option because this would put spellcasters (who can do this for free) at a great advantage. And in a real campaign, spellcasters are not going to spend all their spells in one fight either, so we have to balance this too... you see where this leads us to. And please, let us focus on the map. And I`m not talking about optional things that a pitlord may or may not put on the map, but a definite change to which everyone has to bow. If it is optional, it won`t work as we saw with the first installed central pillar. |
| Jindl05-25-04, 10:23 AM | A couple of points: When the Collosseum was just a Core Arena that was under construction, when Alathar Vierce was arena champion at 5th level, there was discussion of changing the map to create platforms and such. Mo was expressly against it, for the same primary reason I am against it: its too complicated. I'm not sure how many of you can relate to this, but as gladiators get higher in level, the time and complexity in writing tactics becomes more and more. For an example, look at the tactics for any of the high level gladiators. Often they are several pages (mine tend to take 2-3 seperate PM's to send). Imagine how much more complex if we have to allow for a significantly more complex arena with platforms and such. Also, look at if from a pitlording point of view. Running fights is tough enough, with the multiple spell effects, spot/listen/hide/move silently checks, etc, etc. Now add the additional complexity of platforms and such, and you make a difficult fight to run become almost impossible. Just like Mo was, I am against these kind of changes. However, I do support one very important change. That is to change the central column into a 25x25 ft obstacle that reaches to the ceiling. (Incidently, this was originally Mo's idea). This obstacle would make the 1st round kills very difficult, would make it tough for people with a horse to quickmount and ride/kill you, and would prevent the win init + medium range spell = victory that we see with Black Tentacles, Phantasmal Killer, Hold Person, and the like. The column also gives sneaky types an easier time to find a good hiding place. All in all, it reduces the importance of initiative. I'm strongly in favor in increasing the size of the central column, but I do not think there should be any other changes made to the arena. Keep it as simple as we can. -Jindl |
| MotherBast05-25-04, 10:33 AM | Cat: Your a bit in error. The vote about making Init less important actually ended with a decision of NO. Check the old votes and you will see it says NO. So, its been a long time since then, and the favor of the people might have changed. But, at the moment, the vote was still no. As such, I say before we discuss changes about How to make it less important, we have another vote to override the first. It isen't right to make changes when the last vote said we shouldn't. |
| Caterane05-25-04, 10:37 AM | @Motherbast: Jindl, Ethendril, and myself are in favor so this gets through for sure. However, I don`t necessarily want to vote on it as it is clear that something has to be done. I appreciate your inquiry though; thanks for telling me. But let us keep this thread clean of any other discussion please. @Jindl: I want to gather ideas; I`m not saying we install everything proposed here. |
| Ethendril05-25-04, 11:34 AM | I have two concerns I would like addressed with the arena reshape. 1. It's too easy to find someone who is hiding, so rogues are at a serious disadvantage (you can see which rock someone went behind, so even if they're hiding, you know exactly where they are). 2. Medium range instant death spells. This puts some characters at a serious disadvantage if they lose initiative. I think that the larger central obstacle is the place to start here. I am not, however, against other changes if they are simple and do not add to the pitlord time. But any other changes would have to be pretty simple, I think. |
| MotherBast05-25-04, 11:49 AM | I would also support the central pillar idea, but not anything more complacated than that. |
| Captain Mutilate05-25-04, 11:57 AM | Personally I think we should have a couple different types of arenas. I, myself would like seeing a ship to ship battle... with interactive terrain (cannons/ballistae) or a fort battle (trebuchets, etc.). These could be team battles... for example we could choose a leage (let's say the lvl 6 league). Then we'd randomly divide them into teams and they'd have the normal amount of time to talk via pm and all that. We could have multiple pitlords run fights like that. |
| Captain Mutilate05-25-04, 11:59 AM | Personally I think we should add water and a wall or two, if anything. (each square of stairs would raise one 5 ft in elevation... we could have different colors of background to show elevation. |
| Hatzinger05-25-04, 12:27 PM | 1) I back Catīs argument for the start of this discussion. (That initiative is too strong in the COCO.) 2) I vote for the big center column. - Easy to use and devaluing the initiative. 3) Also, i would really like to see light undergrowth in the squares around the columns and rocks. (The kind of undergrowth of the wilderness, weather and environment chapter/forest terrain.) This way rogues could use their abilities. |
| Mercy05-25-04, 12:49 PM | I like Hatzinger's suggestion on light undergrowth around the rocks and pillars. I'd only like to see it in the 5-ft squares adjacent to the pillars and rocks. If the 25x25 ft pillar is implemented then I'd like to see that pillar remain free of the undergrowth. The 25x25 ft pillar to the ceiling is the best option, I believe. We could make the 25x25 ft pillar variable in duration, where it is present from the start of the fight for 1d6 rounds and then it disappears. |
| Pittbull05-25-04, 12:57 PM | I like the idea of an big obstacle inthe middle othe arena. The light-factor might be nice too, if it's not to complicated to calculate it. But don't forget, if a caster get more and more time to buff, he might be too powerful in comparison to the meleers too. |
| Kazzaroth Pan'theon05-25-04, 01:16 PM | I agreed Captain Mutilate's idea for severall different types of arenas wich all are randomly rolled for each pair of combatant (but all have spot where gladiators start so that they cannot instat kill each other in first turn). Also I thinked some simple arena dice-based builder would make some unic taste to each battle area. Of course the area where figth happens, must be posted BEFORE gladiators send their tactics ;). I personally thinked that you firslty roll what type of arena it is; naturall, construct or both? Secondly then we roll how many levels are in arena (1,2 or 3). Then thirdly how many arena features are available for pitlord (pitlord can freely decide what features are, may they be pillars, rocks, statues, furniture) whit 2d6. Then pitlord rolls dice to see is it dawn, noon, day, evening or nigth or midnigth whit d6 (this determines ligthing condition of the arena). Of course if place is naturall open space and it is dawn and we speak about a creature wich cannot excist in daylight (vampire, spectre), you should make it either indoor battle (whit windows of course) or change time of the day appropriate. The rest detail can pitlord add or take away and decide other factors. Of course we could ignroe this and let pitlords themselves create the whole arena where battle happens. |
| Myrridin05-25-04, 01:36 PM | Wow, talk about making the job of the Pitlord about four times harder there Kazz....dang. I agree with placing the large pillar in the middle of the arena. From there, I say leave it alone. |
| Magagumo05-25-04, 01:42 PM | Hmm, while I originally stood against the idea of preventing 1st round interaction, I have seen the Evard's and Acid Fog pain ;). Hmm, would 25' by 25' obstacle prevent this occurence entirely? Faser Move Speeds and Mounts would throw wrench in this plan, and I wonder if such efforts should similarly be blocked, or instead rewarded? |
| Ethendril05-25-04, 01:55 PM | Originally posted by Magagumo Hmm, while I originally stood against the idea of preventing 1st round interaction, I have seen the Evard's and Acid Fog pain ;). Hmm, would 25' by 25' obstacle prevent this occurence entirely? Faser Move Speeds and Mounts would throw wrench in this plan, and I wonder if such efforts should similarly be blocked, or instead rewarded? Some more suggestions include: 1. Simply eliminating 1st round interaction without having the obstacle (Arena-granted immunity to damage or spells the first round only). 2. Move the starting positions for the gladiators (point A and B) back closer to the wall. 3. Both of the above. |
| Jindl05-25-04, 02:05 PM | @Ethendril - I thought about the same 1,2,3 that you did. But here is my take on it. 1. This is very similar to simply allowing 1 round of prebuffs, something which I think greatly strengthens casters, who are already overpowering IMHO. 2. Moving them back doesn't really help, since the range of medium spells can easily hit 400+ feet with a Rod of Enlarge Spell (only costs like 13000 gp). 3. See above. @Mag - Well, I think you would have to move at least 60 feet to get a clear line on your target, so you'd have to be pretty quick. The other advantage of the large central obstacle is that it is big enough to grant cover for large creatures and stuff. I really think it adds a new dimension to the tactics, with just a really simple change to the arena. @Kazz - While I would enjoy the variability of such combats, I just don't think it feasible to run them with the current method of submitting tactics and running by pitlord. It would work much better in a true PBEM game, where the players only submit tactics a round at a time. -Jindl |
| Boldrift-Mattock05-25-04, 02:20 PM | I am for leaving the Arena alone. Maybe the 25x25 pillar would not hurt but the rouge is already denied alot. Initative is pretty important ot the rouge but it is not always certain. I dont like the fact that a rouge cant hide becouse all you have to do is watch where he goes and then bame he is as good as standing out in the open with his thumb up his bum. I like the idea of a wall or something. Hidouts would not be bad if they where moved every fight and considered magical traps that only rouges can find, giving the rouges ability some use. And that coment about the Feather token whip, well I resent that 5x the cost crap. I mean the arena fights are nothing like a real campain fight anyways. But anyways I think the arena being changed around would probly end up hurting rouges more becouse there are few of use to voice our opinion anyways. I think the arena should stick with maybe a wall or a 25x25ft pillar. Thanks Boldrift Mattock |
| kedi05-25-04, 02:43 PM | Originally posted by Caterane This is a discussion I`d like to see everyone participate because it will have heavy impacts on the future of the arena! We are going to reshape the Arena map! <<OMG :bow:>> The reason behind this is simple: the absolute outcome-deciding importance of initiative. Even at low levels ini is more and more important. A 1st level gladiator buys a CL 7 MM scroll and *wham* win in = win match. Same with fireballed@lvl2. How much do you learn about your build if something like that happens? Right, nothing. On top of that it`s very annoying because you thought long and hard about good tactics which never came to happen because you didn`t even have a chance to act! <<true.>> The higher the level the worser it gets. Solid fog/Acid fog, Evards tentacles, ready actioning archers/fireballers, the list is endless. If you lose ini you`re as good as dead, or seriously handicapped. That sucks and is neither fun nor build testing but luck alone (modified by dex and a certain feat). <<true.>> We once voted on making initiative less important, and it got approved. Mo said something about boxes, other suggestions were a no attack on first round rule, or that giant pillar in the center which no one used because it was optional only. Even the pillar would give the mentioned 2nd lvl gladiator time to cast shield or drink a potion of resist fire, so that he may actually PLAY, and use the tactics he wrote on for so long. The central pillar would be a first step. However, while we`re at it, we have now the chance to make more drastic changes in the map. And this is where you step in: I want to hear your suggestions about what we can change on the map; perhaps building some height differences so that non flyers can get altitude too, or perhaps some hideouts, a wall or two, crenelations? A tower or fortress? Tell me what you have in mind. There`s one thing to consider though: if the map gets too complicated the pitlord (who`s already a tough job on the fight alone) will have too much things to think about, and this doesn`t benefit the CoCo either. I am going to reshape the map based on your suggestions and a following discussion with the Elder Pitlords. And now... ...your turn! Cat Edit: Another thing. You surely all noticed that rogues are rare in the arena, and even then they are always combined with other classes because they are robbed of their main advantage: places to hide. We now have the chance to open the arena for rogues and other stealthy characters. A simple wall - no increase in the pitlords burden - would do wonders, and on top of that prevent fireballs from hitting you from every point in the arena. I always have wanted to play rogues, all the gladiators listed under name kedi were rogues. But rogues have no chance here, at least don't have a fair chance. A wall sounds really cool, and more hiding places. and great avatar! Ixidor kedi :schemes: |
| barrel_master05-25-04, 02:44 PM | I'm for the central pillar + maybe the undergrowth around say the boulders but nothing else mentioned so far. |
| Myrridin05-25-04, 03:33 PM | Smoke Sticks. Gotta have them for rogues, as they allow you to obscure your area so that you can hide. |
| Captain Mutilate05-25-04, 04:43 PM | Originally posted by Myrridin Wow, talk about making the job of the Pitlord about four times harder there Kazz....dang. I agree with placing the large pillar in the middle of the arena. From there, I say leave it alone. It doesn't necessarily mean harder, just a few more dice rolls. Or the two combatants could make an arena request each and if they are different, the pitlord in question flips a coin. We could have different types of matches too... I've seen 'Iron Man' thrown around a few times. You realise we could just change that arena map around a little bit, add some walls, and a central fort... and we have ourselves a CTF match! Now wouldn't that be awesome? We could make it so that two pitlords would run one CTF match (usually via MSN, AIM, YIM...) and the first team to three flags would win. When you get tagged (aka die), you simply respawn at a random location the next round. |
| Kazzaroth Pan'theon05-25-04, 04:48 PM | Well, we could create differetn arenas, wich have different rules etc. I think the one wich sets the pairings should also notice WICH arena figth happens. I think the structure of the characther is best to test in different conditions (higher/lower ground, dimmer/brigther ligth conditions etc). We could keep the old arena (whit larger central pillar of course), then there would be underground arena, then arena where are naturall plants, rocks etc. This could bring variety and test characther in different condittions (it is hard for paladin whit horse to move in bushes while ranger/druid runs around the forest firing arrows or casting spells ;)). If player as more variety, then let's create one arena type more! Imagine how much figth is enchanced if it happens underwater? So that you have limited amount of air and you cannot use weapons nor magic effiently. Then think arena where each floor plate collapse after one turn standing onto it (falling is counted as instat death). Is it not most basic rule of tactic that well chosen ("got" by pitlord :)) is a half-victory? |
| Captain Mutilate05-25-04, 04:58 PM | I like the falling plates idea. But it wouldn't be worth it because everyone would just buy potions of fly or air walk. |
| Captain Mutilate05-25-04, 07:43 PM | This is just something quick I did. If people like what they see, I'll finish it off with more stuff and forts around points A and B. I just copied the colors becaus with everything else it got decidedly confusing and I don't want to give myself a headache... looking at black and white on notepad is bad enough, lol. x 3 2 1 - + 1 2 3 y 0 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 30 w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w 9 w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w 8 w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w 7 w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w 6 w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O § O O O O O O O § O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w 5 w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O 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O O O O O O O O O 0 O w w w 6 w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w 7 w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w 8 w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w 9 w w w w w O O O O O O § O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O § O O O O O O w w w w w 20 w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O § O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O § O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w 1 w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w 2 w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w 3 w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w 4 w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O @ O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w 5 w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w 6 w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O § O O O O O O O § O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w 7 w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w 8 w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w 9 w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w 30 w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w x 3 2 1 - + 1 2 3 0 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 The E's are stairs, and I was thinking that we could have different colors to represent different elevations. The walls would be 20 feet high and made of stone, with crellenations that give 1/2 cover. If one made a hide check (DC 15, taking a full round action) they could give themselves full cover until they moved 5 feet. |
| kattattack2205-25-04, 08:15 PM | I think there just need to be some walls or something to obscure vision between columns and rocks. I almost favor a maze that opens in some closed quarter areas with walls that run floor to ceiling. A rogue with slippers of spider climb attacking the unsuspecting victim below or symbols of pain and death left by a wizard in a corridor. Also include some secret doors that require a search check to find the mechanism to open them. Make search and elves' "elf sense" for secret doors more useful. It allows for more ambushes. |
| ^Rayne^05-25-04, 11:53 PM | x 3 2 1 - + 1 2 3 y 0 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 30 w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w 9 w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w 8 w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w 7 w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w 6 w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w 5 w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w 4 w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O = = = = = O O O O O O O O O = = = = = O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w 3 w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O = = = = = = O O O O O O O O O = = = = = = O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w 2 w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O = = = = = = = O O O O O O O O O = = = = = = = O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w 1 w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O = § § § = = = O O O O O O O O O = = = § § § = O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w 20 w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O § § § = = = O O O O O O O O O = = = § § § O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w 9 w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O § § § = = O O O O O O O O O O O = = § § § O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w 8 w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O = = = : O O O O O O O O O : = = = O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w 7 w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O : : : : O O O O O O O : : : : O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w 6 w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O X X X O O O O O O : : : O O O O O O O : : : O O O O O O X X X O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w 5 w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O X * X O O O O O O O : : : : O O O : : : : O O O O O O O X * X O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w 4 w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O X X X O O O O O O O : : § : : O : : § : : O O O O O O O X X X O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w 3 w w O O O O O : : : : O O O O O O O x O O O O O O O : : : : : : : : : O O O O O O O x O O O O O O O : : : : O O O O O w w 2 w w O O O O O : : : : : : : O O O O O x O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O x O O O O O : : : : : : : O O O O O w w 1 w w O O O O O : : : § § § : O O O O O O x : : : O O O O O O O O O O O O O : : : x O O O O O O : § § § : : : O O O O O w w 10 w O O O O O O O : : § § § : O O O O O O : + + + + + O O O O O O O O O + + + + + : O O O O O O : § § § : : O O O O O O O w 9 w O O O O O O O : : § § § : O O O O O O : + O O O O O # # = = = # # O O O O O + : O O O O O O : § § § : : O O O O O O O w 8 w O O O O O O O O : : : : : : O O O O O O + O = = = = # # = § = # # = = = = O + O O O O O O : : : : : : O O O O O O O O w 7 w O O O O O O O O O O : : : : O O O O O O + O = = = = # # = = = # # = = = = O + O O O O O O : : : : O O O O O O O O O O w 6 O O O O O O O O O O O O : : : : : O O O O O O = X X X O O O O O O O X X X = O O O O O O : : : : : O O O O O O O O O O O O 5 O O O O O O O O O O O O O O : : : : O O O O = = X * X O O O O O O O X * X = = O O O O : : : : : O O O O O O O O O O O O O 4 O O O O O O O O O O O O O O : § § : O O O = = = X X X O O : : : O O X X X = = = O O O : § § : O O O O O O O O O O O O O O 3 O O O O O O O O O O O O O O : § § : O O O = = = O O O x O X X X O x O O O = = = O O O : § § : O O O O O O O O O O O O O O 2 O O O O O O O O O O O O O O : : : : O O = = = = O O O O X * * * X O O O O = = = = O O : : : : O O O O O O O O O O O O O O -1 O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O # # # # O O : X * * * * * X : O O # # # # O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O 0 O O O O O O O O O O A O O O O O O O O O = * = = O O : X * * * * * X : O O = = * = O O O O O O O O O B O O O O O O O O O O +1 O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O # # # # O O : X * * * * * X : O O # # # # O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O 2 O O O O O O O O O O O O O O : : : : O O = = = = O O O O X * * * X O O O O = = = = O O : : : : O O O O O O O O O O O O O O 3 O O O O O O O O O O O O O O : § § : O O O = = = O O O x O X X X O x O O O = = = O O O : § § : O O O O O O O O O O O O O O 4 O O O O O O O O O O O O O O : § § : O O O = = = X X X O O : : : O O X X X = = = O O O : § § : O O O O O O O O O O O O O O 5 O O O O O O O O O O O O O : : : : : O O O O = = X * X O O O O O O O X * X = = O O O O : : : : : O O O O O O O O O O O O O 6 O O O O O O O O O O O O : : : : : O O O O O O = X X X O O O O O O O X X X = O O O O O O : : : : : O O O O O O O O O O O O 7 w O O O O O O O O O O : : : : O O O O O O + O = = = = # # = = = # # = = = = O + O O O O O O : : : : O O O O O O O O O O w 8 w O O O O O O O O : : : : : : O O O O O O + O = = = = # # = § = # # = = = = O + O O O O O O : : : : : : O O O O O O O O w 9 w O O O O O O O : : § § § : O O O O O O : + O O O O O # # = = = # # O O O O O + : O O O O O O : § § § : : O O O O O O O w 10 w O O O O O O O : : § § § : O O O O O O : + + + + + O O O O O O O O O + + + + + : O O O O O O : § § § : : O O O O O O O w 1 w w O O O O O : : : § § § : O O O O O O x : : : O O O O O O O O O O O O O : : : x O O O O O O : § § § : : : O O O O O w w 2 w w O O O O O : : : : : : : O O O O O x O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O x O O O O O : : : : : : : O O O O O w w 3 w w O O O O O : : : : O O O O O O O x O O O O O O O : : : : : : : : : O O O O O O O x O O O O O O O : : : : O O O O O w w 4 w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O X X X O O O O O O O : : § : : O : : § : : O O O O O O O X X X O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w 5 w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O X * X O O O O O O O : : : : O O O : : : : O O O O O O O X * X O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w 6 w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O X X X O O O O O O : : : O O O O O O O : : : O O O O O O X X X O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w 7 w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O : : : : O O O O O O O : : : : O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w 8 w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O = = = : O O O O O O O O O : = = = O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w 9 w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O § § § = = O O O O O O O O O O O = = § § § O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w 20 w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O § § § = = = O O O O O O O O O = = = § § § O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w 1 w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O = § § § = = = O O O O O O O O O = = = § § § = O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w 2 w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O = = = = = = = O O O O O O O O O = = = = = = = O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w 3 w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O = = = = = = O O O O O O O O O = = = = = = O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w 4 w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O = = = = = O O O O O O O O O = = = = = O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w 5 w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w 6 w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w 7 w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w 8 w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w 9 w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w 30 w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w x 3 2 1 - + 1 2 3 0 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 Legend: w: outer wall (perfectly smooth and impossible to climb) O: arena floor *: column or structure to the ceiling §: big rock formations (5' high DC 15 to climb) =: water, 25 feet deep :: Natural overgrown brush, thorns, and briars (5' high) X: 30' high platform, flat on top (Carved rough stone DC 20 to climb) x: 2" thick Rope to different platforms (DC 15 balance checks allows PC to move across at half speed) +: 30' rough flagstone wall (DC 15 to climb) #: Bridge A, B: starting positions Sorry but I will add the color in later on. What I want and what I tried to add is places and locations that add to the strategy and allow full use of skills and special abilities. Thick undergrowth favors Rangers and Druids and helps rogues hide. Areas where water are found make swim skill much more valuable in case a player is pushed in. This also makes an ability like Bull Rush more useful. Platforms PC's with good climb skills can get to also tests builds along with tight ropes that make balance a useful skill to have. The key here was to set up bottle-necks and many locations to allow strategy to play a bigger roll. In addition this setup allows the gladiator to have more than one round to react to danger. There are many places to hide and many elevations to roam to. I would greatly prefer the arena take this form than its current one. Right now it is WAY too simple and it takes away strengths from certain classes namely the rogue. This setup allows the player to give much more consideration to using the environment around them to plan their attacks and approach. There are platforms to snipe from if one can get to them and with these platforms they allow special abilities like the monk's Slow Fall abililty to be used. Too many skills and abilities are obsolete in the current Arena and this proposal eliminates this failure and makes the Arena fun. |
| SnarkHunter05-26-04, 12:00 AM | HOLY CHRIST RAYNE! I will never ever play or mod in an arena like that. My suggestion (after a couple weeks of trying to figure out how to get my psion or psychic warrior to survive his 1st three fights against a wizard I'm ready for a change). An early morning fog settles over the arena. It burns away after 3 rounds. Simple, easy to find rules for (pg 94 of the DMG), stops most, (maybe all) 1st round kills. |
| Jindl05-26-04, 12:05 AM | I hope you guys will listen to the experience of your long term members. The more complex the arena, the more difficult the fight is to write tactics for or run. We really need to keep it simple. @Snark - Isn't that virtually the same as allowing 3 rounds of prebuffs? -Jindl |
| SnarkHunter05-26-04, 12:12 AM | Well a well placd fireball would still burn away the fog (as I recall). Also concealed doesn't mean they couldn't be listened for and beat on. It would make the listen skill substantially more useful though. Not that its a poor show as is... |
| ^Rayne^05-26-04, 12:15 AM | I really don't think it is as complex as either of you two. I've been playing D&D on the boards for some time and this isn't as hard to manage as you two make it sound. It may look a little bit complex but it really isn't that crazy. The key here is that the current builds of the Arena are too limiting and this build is much more fair and equal to all classes. Balance is important in an Arena design and this makes many strengths and weaknesses play out to their fullest. It doesn't choose one skill or class over another and it allows more tactical possibilities. Personally I think this is what is needed around here. |
| cellardweller05-26-04, 12:53 AM | I like the idea of a 3 round fog. The big difference between it and a 3 round pre-buff is that is also allows rogues to "buff" by hiding and fighters to buff by getting close to their opponent. I am dead against any complex changes to the arena (anything more that the center obstacle). It's gotten to the point where everyone knows the map well enough that they don't need to look at it to run fights - I'd hate for that to change. |
| Tellish_of_Ket05-26-04, 01:09 AM | Don't forget Mike's phantasmal mount that moves like 220'? That sucker can run cirlces around the arena in all directions around any obstacles, and soon it will airwalk. That's sick. I had totally forgot about the versatility of that spell until a few weeks ago. The large central obstacle now even favors casters more, because they can easily move around it with the steed, while the archer/fighter can possible move that much to ready to disrupt i believe, thus making the wizard feel much safer. I'm not against the large central, and am willing to try it out. Stealth characters will always suffer because of different forms of pitlording and the need for greatly detailed tactics to execute them properly. If anything goes wrong, or is done wrong, your messed up. Believe me, i know. <sigh> -ToK |
| ^Rayne^05-26-04, 01:21 AM | It is sad everyone is so resistant to change. The point of the arena besides fun is to test builds. The testing is pretty poor when we say... 1. Forget about testing a characters Swim skill. 2. Who needs Balance skill? 3. What is the point of Climbing? 4. Who cares about the Jump skill? 5. What is the point of Slow Fall? 6. Do we really have to give Rogues some place to hide? 7. Is there really a need for higher ground. 8. Let mounts have free reign of the ground. 9. Why bother giving Rangers and Druids the Woodland Stride ability? 10. Bull Rush is useless when there is no place dangerous to push them. 11. Tactics should never have any planning in regards to the terrain or obstacles! There are so many reasons why the current arena is obsolete and yet many of you reject a proposal out of hand that will pull together many overlooked abilities in favor of simplicity. What is really going on is that you are testing builds poorly. No DM is going to create endless situations where PC's encounter one another on barren landscapes with nothing around. This arena is the equivalent of only doing Head- On crash tests for cars and never testing Side and Rear-end collisions. The end product is poor testing and builds that only work in one situation. The arena I proposed add a lot more options and tests builds much more fairly but I see none of this is being taken seriously by people resistant to change. I keep hearing 'keep it simple' but D&D isn't really simple and it shouldn't be. The point of D&D is to create a framework to create complex characters with varied abilities. COCO is supposed to fairly test this vast network of possibilities, and right now the Arena does a VERY poor job of this. I would really like to see an Arena that properly tests builds and I would much rather Pitlord fights in an Arena that actually is more than a flat plane with no real obstacles or point. Well there is no point unless we are trying to test very limited criteria that unfairly punishes some classes while favoring others. If that is what we are doing here and what people are in favor of then we are doing a splendid job at it in the current arena. |
| Pittbull05-26-04, 07:18 AM | Originally posted by Jindl @Snark - Isn't that virtually the same as allowing 3 rounds of prebuffs? -Jindl It isn't the same, with the fog you have the possibility to get closer to your opponent, while being safe of ranged attacks. |
| Kazzaroth Pan'theon05-26-04, 09:40 AM | I support Rayne's suggestion for the arena change. I thinked personally that there would be different kinds of arena's, but one very varied version can do same thing ;). I think it wuld be excelent idea to have more than one simple arena. I thinked char's should be tested in different enviroments (simplier is used to test horse riders and out-front battles) while the more varied for severall different classes (like rogues, monks, rangers, druids etc). The presetn arena ONLY tests stamina, damage sending and movement ability. We should make arena wich tests other special skills. Of course we could do other ismple arena wich tests other builded chars and and other for different builds etc. Also whit this way you can HAVE rematch whit same foe, but in different arena ;). |
| Caterane05-26-04, 09:43 AM | First of all, thanks to everyone for participating, especially to Rayne and Cpt Mutilate for posting a visual example. Hey Rayne, heads up! I`m with you on that. However, the arena you posted is indeed too difficult. Captain Mutilate`s suggestion is better than the central pillar but there are still too few things on it. Some things we definately need are additional blockades, and walls. Why not increasing the rock formations and the pillars to 10x10 or even 15x15? Or just some of them? Or something completely different? Show me your suggestions!! Different altitudes would be cool but it has to be kept at a minimum. In no way should there be space to stand below as it is not possible to reflect this on a 2 dimensional map. Perhaps a plateau? If different altitudes at all then it has to be kept simple. I also like the Fortress idea in the center. As Rayne pointed out there are many skill and features that are useless in the arena. I`d like to see more of them in use. However, it won`t be possible to incorporate EVERY non-functional ability as it would make the arena unplayable. We have to meet somewhere in the middle. One thing I definately want to see is the boosting of the Rogue. This is one of the most favorite classes but it`s seldomly used, and that shouldn`t be that way. Another idea was having multiple maps. I`m not sure on this, and how the other pitlords react to it. I`d have no problems with it but I cannot speak for others. Another thing to consider is that the setting of pairings and pitlords is already a difficult job, so perhaps one map for each part of the roster (low, med, high, pre-epic)? If you post a map as Rayne and Mutilate did it would help us greatly. Cat |
| Magagumo05-26-04, 11:02 AM | Phantasmal Steed is good, but Pale-Rider puts an exceptional amount of effort in making it work. I would note that the "creature" has hp, but no saves. Thusly, it is treated as an unattended object that fails all saves. I admire the mount's mobility, but one good fireball drops it from the sky. Personally, I favor Entangle, since the creature has no ranks or Strength, it is also auto-entangled, stoppig its movement dead. I agree that I fear highly elaborate arena's, so I make a few requests: Please make it symmetrical along one if not both axises- If each player wishes to use the same obstacle, I can't be biased in choosing which oen gets which side if they both design tactics from, say, the right. So make sure it is identical from their point of views. I want Rogue to be better used, but I warn against getting overcomplicated with fog- there's a reason people themselves can cats the spell, best to let the arena's features not be replicated by spell. You might want to consider certain areas (say the plateau that Cat suggested) to be grass only (for Entangle, Hide Camoflague/Hide in PLain Sight) while others be small or large stone blocks, gravel-filled rooms, etc. If your opponent loves to entangle, you have an opporuntity to escape the barrage of entangling vines, but now you must contend with less open terrain. Don't try to make every skill/feature good: Woodland Stride isn't a terrible idea, nor id creating sections with rubble. Swim and Balance might just linger on the side until Sleet Storm is used ;) |
| ^Rayne^05-26-04, 11:41 AM | The large X on my map were Plateau/Platforms. I guess I didn't make it clear enough in my map. That is why I listed a climb DC to get to them. I build them so archery based classes might be able to use climb skills and grappling hooks to get to a perch they could snipe at gladiators from. It isn't right to force an archer to have a mount to avoid becoming the target of another mounted rider. Giving them perches is an places that are difficult to get to is the best way to help them. I will do a revision of the map with less Briars, thorns and plant growth when I get home. I have a few ideas to simplify it but still make it a fun and challenging environment to play in. |
| Caterane05-26-04, 11:51 AM | Rayne, consider one thing: if the archer has to take ranks in climb, buy grappling hooks and other equipment, and then spend three rounds to climb 30 ft (at best) then he might just buy a potion of fly and be done with it. Too complicated terrain - like your bridges - would never be used by any gladiator. |
| kedi05-26-04, 12:19 PM | @Rayne: HOLTZ HOBA! :bow: I agree with Rayne. The current arena bans the use of many feat/skills. However, on the other hand, Jindl clearified that complexing the arena, the fights are more harder to mod. But, this is the core arena, we need to be able to test every single build. With current arena, why should I spend sopme points in jump, climb, balance, even tumble! Rayne's arena is complex, indeed, but it's just wonderful. 'd suggest you to make it avaible to pitlord and PCs. I could mod a fight using the new arena, but instead of spending 30-60 minutes, I'd spend 70-120 minutes, however, it'd be more fun both for me and for PCs. Catarane's idea rock, too, different maps for each rooster. For ex, Rayne's arena would fit great with medium level glads, while the current/CMs would fit for the low levels. For higher, I'd suggest cat to improve rayne's, dunno how :) kedi :schemes: |
| barrel_master05-26-04, 12:33 PM | Well, I suppose we could have rocks that are say 20x20 and that you could walk on those rocks if you wanted. |
| Caterane05-26-04, 12:44 PM | Ah, Kedi, the bard, the assassin, the silent shadow behind y... wait a second, YOU REMOVED ME FROM YOUR SIG??? Kedi, the scrounger, the dosser, the "do you have a coin for me" behind you... And Kedi, there are rumors that the other quotes in your sig are your alternate accounts :P :D |
| kedi05-26-04, 12:50 PM | Originally posted by Caterane Ah, Kedi, the bard, the assassin, the silent shadow behind y... wait a second, YOU REMOVED ME FROM YOUR SIG??? Kedi, the scrounger, the dosser, the "do you have a coin for me" behind you... And Kedi, there are rumors that the other quotes in your sig are your alternate accounts :P :D Yes I removed your Kedi'somethin, will put "have you been seduced a WizO lately?" :rofl: and no, they aren't my MuPs, they are my slaves :schemes: btw I loved the avatar I got it! Ypu'll create a MuP and thus you will have zillions of PCs without modng matches! Zuula! :P kedi :schemes: |
| Limit05-26-04, 12:51 PM | Rayne, I mean you absolutely no offense what so ever, but when I looked at your proposed arena the first thing I thought was "Ow..." Now, with that said, I appreciate the work that you put into making an original idea and you have made very valid points. I think people are saying simplicity is better for one reason - time. In this past week, many of the elder mods have both mentioned that it can possibly take hours to develop tactics for their high level characters. It takes hours to run high level fights with good tactics in the current arena. Yes, an arena like yours would more accurately reflect a D&D adventure BUT there is a big different between a D&D adventure and the arena - interaction. When I DM for my group, we lay out the complex terrain map and everyone can see their miniature. They then make decisions based on terrain and their opponents actions EVERY round. As a DM, I don't have to try and interpret what they want to do, they tell me. In my opinion, it is not feasible to recreate that in a "pre-tactics" type setting like the arena is. With all that being said, keep brain storming! I'm sure everyone, even if they have different opinions, appreciates your work. |
| ^Rayne^05-26-04, 02:40 PM | Rayne, consider one thing: if the archer has to take ranks in climb, buy grappling hooks and other equipment, and then spend three rounds to climb 30 ft (at best) then he might just buy a potion of fly and be done with it. Too complicated terrain - like your bridges - would never be used by any gladiator. I don't entirely agree with you on the bridges not being needed. Aiki isn't going to be flying anytime soon and he would need it, as would Vryk. I've seen many land based PC's who would utilize the bridges moving around. The reason I made the water varied in its distance at different points is to give some PC's with high Jump ability to just run and jump over them. Still having bridges helps lower level PC's move across the area. Sure at higher levels it may not be used but then again a PC could have their Fly ability Dispelled and be stuck running. Would you trust a mage with no skill points in jump to be able to clear the water areas safely? I spent a geat deal of time trying to make a design that tested all skills abilities and classes. I put higher plateaus into the arena so archers who don't want to bother with flying or flying mounts can get to high places where they can better target flying PC's. It may not seem like a good idea to you to not build a PC with the ability to fly but some character builds don't really concern themselves with this ability and I think they shouldn't be forced to. Also a high climb skill can allow a gladiator to climb at a much faster rate and also the number of structures providing cover and a place to hide give gladiators the chance to climb without beings spotted. As I said I am going to work on a revision to the map but I really believe the current map doesn't test builds properly and although my proposal is more complex it does a MUCH MUCH better and more fair job of testing all builds. That was my goal when I sat down to design the map and that is what I hope is adapted for playing here at the COCO. As for tactics being too complex because of the changes. I don't buy that at all. It may seem that way now but it just means people writing up tactics will have to be a bit more general in their goals and allow their Pitlords to make more decisions for them. The key is setting up objectives and goals for the Pitlord so they can run the fight fairly without being overly concerned about every detail. Right now I feel like we are playing Chess with Checker rules. We should be playing Chess with Chess rules. The current arena is too prohibative and doesn't allow for the kinds of options that are available in D&D. For example in the Arena who would even bother purchasing a Ring of Climbing? Thats right, no one would. However I remember in a campaign I played in a year ago, my PC had one of these rings and it made my PC one of the best in the game. Not to mention everyone in the group was envious of my PC's good fortune to have one. There were so many uses for it, but I see in the current arena it has no purpose. This is a shame because it shows glaring holes in the way the Arena has developed. I really want to see this change. |
| MotherBast05-26-04, 04:40 PM | Let me say one thing. 5 hours. That is the ammount of time it took me to run Jagath vs. Peter, counting the posting of the fight. That was a 13 round fight, with 8 rounds of nothing but buffing. 5 hours, and I still made 2 minor errors with one of the spells. If the arena gets more complacated, I'm afraid I will have to retire from Pitlording, as I hardly have that kind of time, and it will require me to run 2 fights a week to keep my 3 characters active. To run 2 flawless fights in the current arena takes at least 8 hours. I can't afford to invest any more time than this, and the fights are already getting more complacated as the gladiators get higher in level. |
| Captain Mutilate05-26-04, 05:30 PM | I think we should make these other maps (if they are approved) optional. The pitlord can say that they ref on the default map (where the 25 ft pillar should be installed IMHO), and the others will ref on all the other maps. And howabout that CTF idea? I haven't heard any feedback on that... (two teams, varied level characters, a couple pitlords.) |
| Caterane05-26-04, 05:42 PM | Rayne, I once played a character that had tongues at will so let`s install something for that too :) Seriously, I already said that we have to meet in the middle. I agree that the arena might be more campaign related by using your suggestions; we could fill it with so many things that it floods over but that`s not functional anymore. On the other hand... ...Motherbast, I have noticed these concerns from several people now and don`t think I dismiss them. However, simple features won`t increase your workload in the least. A simple wall, for example, adds so much to the arena but doesn`t prolong the moderation. As I said, we have to meet in the middle. Mutilate, team fights might be an option when we reach level 20 and have nothing to do there. I think we have made enough additions and changes in the last few weeks. |
| SnarkHunter05-26-04, 05:58 PM | Cat, what do you think about some Fog? |
| Captain Mutilate05-26-04, 05:58 PM | Time to get Dante to lvl 20, then. And I agree. A wall or four would help a lot and would cause minimal havoc. Even if we made the central pillar 25 ft across and had a couple walls there, that would make rogues much more viable. And we could have platforms on some pillars... even on the central pillar. we could always have a side view. 5ft scale @= pillar _ = platform @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @_ _ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ |
| Caterane05-26-04, 06:08 PM | Originally posted by SnarkHunter Cat, what do you think about some Fog? That`s bad because the spectators wonīt see anything :) Fog adds too much complexity to the arena. These fog rounds are solely run by listen/spot madness so that every pitlord loses his enthusiasm right at the beginning. A fireball disperses fog but how would you track that on the sheet? There are easier solutions. The point is to make first round kills almost impossible (not counting suicidal drows, right Kazza :) ), give the rogue some places to hide, and perhaps some other minor features like walls (which prevent being fireballed/shot at from every angle). And all this with the slightest increase in pitlord effort. It must be symetric, too (at least west|east). I also heart the good argument that different maps might make re-matches more interesting becuase the same gladiators fight on a different map. I would combine this with the roster distribution (low/med/hig/epic) so that the feeling that you got to a new part of the roster is more present. This wouldn`t add to the pitlord effort too because the maps themselves stay easy and are accessable. |
| ^Rayne^05-26-04, 08:31 PM | Okay so I set myself down again to try to streamline and simplify my earlier design. One thing I did was shrink the overall map size. I believe the current map is too big in terms of overall area and has a lot of wasted space. I shrunk the dimensions and simplified the design. I listened to many of the complaints about my previous map and I hope you will at least examine this map closely and give it a chance. What I like about this one is it still gives rogues more options for hiding and it still allows, jump, climb, balance, and swim checks to have a real place in this arena. It will allow summons for the water and druids to even wild shape into water based creatures which also diversifies what we are currently seeing. Take note that even though the map is smaller it is more difficult to get to the other opponent if not impossible in the first round. The Water purposely cuts off the most direct route although a high Jump skill could significantly speed up the trip to the other side. It also adds walls and short rope bridges that allow balance and jump checks to quickly traverse over high places. Please look at the map carefully before judging it over harshly. I take a lot of time out of my own day to work on this and think it out carefully. I would appreciate constructive criticism that at least shows the person has taken the time to look carefully at the map before ripping it apart. Thanks for your consideration, have at it! x 2 1 - + 1 2 y 0 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 20 w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w 9 w w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w w 8 w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w 7 w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w 6 w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w 5 w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w 4 w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w 3 w w w w w O O § § O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O § § O O w w w w w 2 w w w w O O O § § O O O O O O O O O O = = = O O O O O O O O O O § § O O O w w w w 1 w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O = = = = = O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w 10 w w w O O O O O O O = = = = = = O = = § § § = = O = = = = = = O O O O O O O w w w 9 w w O O O O O O O O = = = = = = O = = § § § = = O = = = = = = O O O O O O O O w w 8 w w O O O O O O O O = = X X X X O O = = = = = O O X X X X = = O O O O O O O O w w 7 w w O O O O O O O O = = X * * X O O O § § § O O O X * * X = = O O O O O O O O w w 6 w O O O O O O O O O = = X * * X O O O O § O O O O X * * X = = O O O O O O O O O w 5 w O O O O O § O O O = = X X X X O O O O O O O O O X X X X = = O O O § O O O O O w 4 w O O O O § § § O O = = + = = O x O O O O O O O x O = = + = = O O § § § O O O O w 3 O O O O O O § O O O = = + = O O O x O X X X O x O O O = + = = O O O § O O O O O O 2 O O O O O O O O O O = = + = O O O O X o o o X O O O O = + = = O O O O O O O O O O -1 O O O O O O O O O O = = + + + O O X o o * o o X O O + + + = = O O O O O O O O O O 0 O A O O O O O O O O = = O O O O O X o * * * o X O O O O O = = O O O O O O O O B O +1 O O O O O O O O O O = = + + + O O X o o * o o X O O + + + = = O O O O O O O O O O 2 O O O O O O O O O O = = + = O O O O X o o o X O O O O = + = = O O O O O O O O O O 3 O O O O O O § O O O = = + = O O O x O X X X O x O O O = + = = O O O § O O O O O O 4 w O O O O § § § O O = = + = = O x O O O O O O O x O = = + = = O O § § § O O O O w 5 w O O O O O § O O O = = X X X X O O O O O O O O O X X X X = = O O O § O O O O O w 6 w O O O O O O O O O = = X * * X O O O O § O O O O X * * X = = O O O O O O O O O w 7 w w O O O O O O O O = = X * * X O O O § § § O O O X * * X = = O O O O O O O O w w 8 w w O O O O O O O O = = X X X X O O = = = = = O O X X X X = = O O O O O O O O w w 9 w w O O O O O O O O = = = = = = O = = § § § = = O = = = = = = O O O O O O O O w w 10 w w w O O O O O O O = = = = = = O = = § § § = = O = = = = = = O O O O O O O w w w 1 w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O = = = = = O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w 2 w w w w O O O § § O O O O O O O O O O = = = O O O O O O O O O O § § O O O w w w w 3 w w w w w O O § § O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O § § O O w w w w w 4 w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w 5 w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w 6 w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w 7 w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w 8 w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w 9 w w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w w 20 w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w x 2 1 - + 1 2 0 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 Legend: w: outer wall (perfectly smooth and impossible to climb) O: arena floor *: column or structure to the ceiling §: big rock formations (5' high DC 15 to climb) =: water, 25 feet deep X: 30' high plateau, flat on top (Carved rough stone DC 20 to climb) o: 60' high plateau, flat on top (Carved rough stone DC 20 to climb) x: 1" thick Rope to different platforms (DC 20 balance checks allows PC to move across at half speed) +: 6" wide, 30' tall rough flagstone wall (DC 15 to climb, DC 15 balance checks allows PC to move along the top of the wall at half speed) A, B: starting positions Sorry I didn't have time to add color. It makes everything a lot easier to read but it just takes so much extra time to do. Uggh I realized I forgot to add some water that was supposed to be on the West side of the map that was on the East side. I guess I was a bit tired when I worked on this earlier today. |
| Arstimis05-26-04, 08:50 PM | x 2 1 - + 1 2 y 0 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 20 w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w 9 w w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w w 8 w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w 7 w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w 6 w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w 5 w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w 4 w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w 3 w w w w w O O § § O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O § § O O w w w w w 2 w w w w O O O § § O O O O O O O O O O = = = O O O O O O O O O O § § O O O w w w w 1 w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O = = = = = O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w 10 w w w O O O O O O O = = = = = = O = = § § § = = O = = = = = = O O O O O O O w w w 9 w w O O O O O O O O = = = = = = O = = § § § = = O = = = = = = O O O O O O O O w w 8 w w O O O O O O O O = = X X X X O O = = = = = O O X X X X = = O O O O O O O O w w 7 w w O O O O O O O O = = X * * X O O O § § § O O O X * * X = = O O O O O O O O w w 6 w O O O O O O O O O = = X * * X O O O O § O O O O X * * X = = O O O O O O O O O w 5 w O O O O O § O O O = = X X X X O O O O O O O O O X X X X = = O O O § O O O O O w 4 w O O O O § § § O O = = + O O O x O O O O O O O x O = = + = = O O § § § O O O O w 3 O O O O O O § O O O = = + O O O O x O X X X O x O O O = + = = O O O § O O O O O O 2 O O O O O O O O O O = = + O O O O O X o o o X O O O O = + = = O O O O O O O O O O -1 O O O O O O O O O O = = + + + O O X o o * o o X O O + + + = = O O O O O O O O O O 0 O A O O O O O O O O = = O O O O O X o * * * o X O O O O O = = O O O O O O O O B O +1 O O O O O O O O O O = = + + + O O X o o * o o X O O + + + = = O O O O O O O O O O 2 O O O O O O O O O O = = + O O O O O X o o o X O O O O = + = = O O O O O O O O O O 3 O O O O O O § O O O = = + O O O O x O X X X O x O O O = + = = O O O § O O O O O O 4 w O O O O § § § O O = = + O O O x O O O O O O O x O = = + = = O O § § § O O O O w 5 w O O O O O § O O O = = X X X X O O O O O O O O O X X X X = = O O O § O O O O O w 6 w O O O O O O O O O = = X * * X O O O O § O O O O X * * X = = O O O O O O O O O w 7 w w O O O O O O O O = = X * * X O O O § § § O O O X * * X = = O O O O O O O O w w 8 w w O O O O O O O O = = X X X X O O = = = = = O O X X X X = = O O O O O O O O w w 9 w w O O O O O O O O = = = = = = O = = § § § = = O = = = = = = O O O O O O O O w w 10 w w w O O O O O O O = = = = = = O = = § § § = = O = = = = = = O O O O O O O w w w 1 w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O = = = = = O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w 2 w w w w O O O § § O O O O O O O O O O = = = O O O O O O O O O O § § O O O w w w w 3 w w w w w O O § § O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O § § O O w w w w w 4 w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w 5 w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w 6 w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w 7 w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w 8 w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w 9 w w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w w 20 w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w x 2 1 - + 1 2 0 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 Legend: w: outer wall (perfectly smooth and impossible to climb) O: arena floor *: column or structure to the ceiling §: big rock formations (5' high DC 15 to climb) =: water, 25 feet deep X: 30' high plateau, flat on top (Carved rough stone DC 20 to climb) o: 60' high plateau, flat on top (Carved rough stone DC 20 to climb) x: 1" thick Rope to different platforms (DC 20 balance checks allows PC to move across at half speed) +: 6" wide, 30' tall rough flagstone wall (DC 15 to climb, DC 15 balance checks allows PC to move along the top of the wall at half speed) A, B: starting positions I think this map that Rayne did is very good. I put it in color so it would be easier to understand..i hope thats what it did |
| MotherBast05-26-04, 09:07 PM | And what about the mounted charger build? Now we greatly limit the ability to test this build. No matter what arena we decide on, some builds will not function as well. |
| Kazzaroth Pan'theon05-26-04, 09:19 PM | That's why we should have VARIABLE arenas. Any single arena map is NOT perfect to test all builds and see their strengths. I like the map, whit that we have water element and some climbing. But should it be not more intresting to have whole water element to sepparate the gladiators and gladiators must climb (via robe or bridge) or fly over the obstacle? |
| ^Rayne^05-26-04, 10:14 PM | And what about the mounted charger build? Now we greatly limit the ability to test this build. No matter what arena we decide on, some builds will not function as well. Actually I don't believe your arguement is all that accurate. There are plenty of places where a mounted charger could find open ground to attack from on this map. Also the center section's water hazard can be jumped by a mounted rider as easily as a PC with a decent Jump skill. Horses and riders in equestrian events don't show their riding skills on a flat plane. They have obstacles and jumps and this shows their skill. This map doesn't discourge mounted builds. It actually highlights just how good a mount could really be. The jumps are not overly excessive and while they might test a mounted combatant they don't limit them. However giving the other gladiators the chance to avoid them is what Balance is all about. Right now mounted combatants do so well because the terrain 100% favors them over unmounted gladiators. This map mixes up the balance so they don't win every battle hands down. The big problem right now is that some builds function too well and the current arena doesn't challenge them at all while it unfavorably tips the balance away from classes like Rogues. Balance is at odds here and the Arena's current layout is the prime reason for this. The proposal I've put up for everyone to see has been carefully laid out to preserve balance for all builds. That is the point of this forum. |
| MotherBast05-26-04, 11:47 PM | actually, the current arena makes it "almost" impossible to preform a mounted charge. If it happens, its only because your opponit didn't right "stand behind something" in his tactics. An arena with more obsticals would only make this build less likely to be able to use its primary weapon, the mounted charge. I was really just pointing out that no matter how we change the arena, it will be impossable to create one the is "balanced" for all build types. |
| LLMadCow05-27-04, 12:25 AM | We do need some change, and I will offer more thoughts tomorrow. Please do not end this discussion quickly. |
| cellardweller05-27-04, 12:29 AM | Just wanted to pick up on this point Originally posted by kedi I could mod a fight using the new arena, but instead of spending 30-60 minutes, I'd spend 70-120 minutes, however, it'd be more fun both for me and for PCs. I would guess that Rayne is somewhere in the same ballpark. I, like MB, average around 1 round every 30 mins. The discussion seems to be differentiated into 2 camps, those who 50% extra work would mean an extra hour or so and those to whom 50% extra work would mean an extra day's work. Regardless of how interesting the arena would be, if it adds more than 5% extra work it is not an acceptable solution as it would preclude many Pitlords from running fights. |
| freemoody05-27-04, 12:34 AM | I think the w's (surrounding the arena) should definitely be water areas. |
| Arstimis05-27-04, 01:27 AM | ok, i redid Rayne's arena in color a few posts back. I think it looks good and would work out nicely. What doesnt everyone else think? Also, i dont understand how 1 round of a fight can take 30 min. I couldnt even think it would take 10 min for a round |
| cellardweller05-27-04, 03:28 AM | Originally posted by Arstimis Also, i dont understand how 1 round of a fight can take 30 min. I couldnt even think it would take 10 min for a round In a tabletop game its quite acceptable as a DM to just estimate ballpark DCs. When I run something for the arena every little minutae must be looked up and confirmed, because if you don't someone's gonna jump down your throat. Here's a real example - Bob is flying and has improved invisibility, George is on the ground. He casts fireball then moves- You need to work out distance 3d distance for the and do the first listen check, resolve the fireball, work out 3d distance and then do a second opposed listen check. Then you check the fireball spell to determine if there is anything you missed - ooh whats this? a pea sized object? Whats the dc to spot a pea sized object at a distance of 80'? <Srd searching>. Any modifiers for the fact that it is glowing <more srd searching> Ok George need a spot roll of X to pinpoint Bob by seeing the origin of the fireball pea. That's almost half a round done and I can already account for 15-20 mins work. |
| Arstimis05-27-04, 09:49 AM | Originally posted by cellardweller In a tabletop game its quite acceptable as a DM to just estimate ballpark DCs. When I run something for the arena every little minutae must be looked up and confirmed, because if you don't someone's gonna jump down your throat. Here's a real example - Bob is flying and has improved invisibility, George is on the ground. He casts fireball then moves- You need to work out distance 3d distance for the and do the first listen check, resolve the fireball, work out 3d distance and then do a second opposed listen check. Then you check the fireball spell to determine if there is anything you missed - ooh whats this? a pea sized object? Whats the dc to spot a pea sized object at a distance of 80'? <Srd searching>. Any modifiers for the fact that it is glowing <more srd searching> Ok George need a spot roll of X to pinpoint Bob by seeing the origin of the fireball pea. That's almost half a round done and I can already account for 15-20 mins work. 15-20 min of work for that....that was like 5 min of work...but oh well, lets drop this and get back to the reason the thread was made |
| barrel_master05-27-04, 02:22 PM | Here's stuff I'm going to add. 1. Everyone is saying that we should add maps that are more complicated. Why not add maps that are also simpler... how about a map with no obsticles at all? This would be especialy good for mounted charger builds. 2. It takes me forever to run a fight (anywhere from 2 hours for a simple one to 8 for a more complex one). Adding more complex stuff makes everything worse. (at least for me) 3. I'm against adding things that are a lot more complicated. Maybe adding functionality where you could decide the map or have a random map chossen but I'd really rather not have a map with all that stuff. |
| KerlanRayne05-28-04, 02:03 AM | I'd go with two of the things mentioned before. Central obstacle and make some of the pillars/boulders bigger. (10x10 or 15x15) Simple but effective. KerlanRayne |
| Beldin05-28-04, 06:21 AM | I'm with KerlanRayne on this. The simple arena is a good arena. Maybe the players could choose to start hidden behind one of the obstacles near their starting position. So there would be no "I know where you hide" situation. |
| Pittbull05-28-04, 08:51 AM | Please!!!!! Keep it simple! In my opinion, there is only a need of thicker pillars and perharps light conditions. Because if it's impossible to see anybody( with normal sight), who is over 200 feet away, would balance out the "sudden win - long ranged spells". |
| MysticMonk200505-28-04, 12:16 PM | Just making pillars and rocks bigger isn't going to do a whole lot... all that it will do is magnify the way the fights are already done. "Take cover behind something while I buff for ___ rounds." Then they go and duke it out, and who ever is the better buffed wins. I like the idea of water and raised platforms. I really don't think that it would add all that much to the work. |
| kattattack2205-28-04, 08:58 PM | Curses, delete this post please. |
| kattattack2205-28-04, 08:58 PM | I think a few different yet simple arenas would be good with one with some walls or other obstacles. One without any obstacles or a least some large open areas, and one like we have now. Also I think size should vary because melee fighters are at such a disadvantage (especially if they don't want to be mounted) having to cross so much space. A smaller arena would help them on occasion since others wouldn't have as much time to buff. Also, I don't think many of the close range spells on the first round would be too distructive since a melee fighter has to get in close anyway. At least think on variable sizes for ~3 arenas that could be done randomly or by level. (Just a thought, It would be cool to have an open arena, but trap with pits, chained animals poping up from trap doors, etc. like the Roman Coliseum.) |
| Boldrift-Mattock05-28-04, 11:35 PM | I think the bigger pillar in the center and then adding some underbrush to the five foot squares around each of the pillars and rocks in the arena would be all it needed. I think it would up the use of hide and things like that. Boldrift Mattock |
| Jindl05-30-04, 08:13 AM | Having listened to your comments, here is a simple suggestion I have, tell me what you think: x 3 2 1 - + 1 2 3 y 0 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 30 w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w 9 w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w 8 w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w 7 w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w 6 w w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O § O O O O O O O § O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w w 5 w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O w w w w w w w 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@: column to the ceiling §: big rock A, B: starting positions |
| Caterane05-30-04, 08:33 AM | @Jindl: Not enough. Anyone with a horse could single move and cast/attack as if the obstacle wouldn`t be there. However, I like the hollow center. I`m going to alter it later. |
| Jindl05-30-04, 08:42 AM | @Cat - I'm still in the process of constructing/editing it. In other words, IT AIN"T DONE YET !! :D -Jindl |
| Jindl05-30-04, 08:54 AM | @Cat (and the others): Okay, now its done. Some features: 1. The character starting at "A" must move at least 70 feet to get line of sight + line of effect to position "B" in the first round. 2. The hollow center is big enough to allow large creatures to manuever and allows us to create a large central obstacle without wasting a lot of potential fighting space. 3. Symmetry problems on Row +3 and +4 on the old arena were fixed. @Cat - I like this better than the "X" central obstacle you proposed, for the major reason that it doesn't have any diagonal lines. Diagonals are hard to to when using squares. I also like the tactical options of the hollow center. -Jindl |
| MotherBast05-30-04, 09:00 AM | Humm.... I haven't really supported any of the new arena ideas so far, though I have reluctently agreed the Central Obstical might be a good idea. But, after looking at this Arena Jindl, I like it. Not at all complacated, while at the same time opening several new tactical options. I did notice though, that a big creature trying to move "through" the middle obstical will be forced to "squeeze" at some point. You mentioned that you expected large creatures to be able to fight inside of it, so I don't know if you noticed this. |
| Jindl05-30-04, 09:05 AM | Originally posted by MotherBast Humm.... I haven't really supported any of the new arena ideas so far, though I have reluctently agreed the Central Obstical might be a good idea. But, after looking at this Arena Jindl, I like it. Not at all complacated, while at the same time opening several new tactical options. I did notice though, that a big creature trying to move "through" the middle obstical will be forced to "squeeze" at some point. You mentioned that you expected large creatures to be able to fight inside of it, so I don't know if you noticed this. Yeah, under normal rules a large creature would have to squeeze past some parts of the central column. I would ask whether we want it that way or not. If we do want it that way, then leave it as is. If we do not want large creatures to have to squeeze at certain points, then I would say that the central column is rounded (unable to display properly on the map), and that it doesn't require squeezing for large creatures. -Jindl |
| Magagumo05-30-04, 03:32 PM | Wow.. simply wow. I love the central obstacle- it blocks los wonderfully, but movement can still occur. I also like the narrow fighting spaces, excellent for a meleer seeking to escape from a horde of summons. Also, I wonder if we should force large creatures to squeeze? It would be interesting for a foot soldier seeking to avoid a mounted combatant, as it would reduce the mount's effectiveness in that space. Of course, holing up in there allows a smart opponent to design ways of forcing you out, or perhaps the mounted individual can pace outside, waitig to striek while buffing? Something to consider... :) |
| ^Rayne^05-30-04, 05:53 PM | Jindl, While I appreciate you turning a few hard-liners around a little with your idea, I don't believe it goes nearly far enough. I believe my 2nd arena proposal is much more in line with what is needed around here. Your proposal still doesn't make the skills; Jump, Climb, Swim, Balance, and Use Rope valuable at all. These skills are very important in D&D builds but the current arena design completely glosses over their value. My design proposal doesn't devalue their importance and offers an effective alternative that makes them important and useful. In addition having raised plateaus offers a ranged fighter without the ability to fly an opportunity to climb to better sniping locations. This would help give them a way to attack individuals who try to fly to ceiling to avoid any type of ranged attack. It also allows them an alternative to flight to get away from mounted riders who are limited to ground travel. I also never liked the sheer number of various mini-cover placements. It needlessly makes the arena more complex than it needs to be. A few larger places offering cover is far more effective while still providing cover they also offer a good location to hide or climb on top of. I do believe your central layout is a much better alternative than the current arena design but it won't do enough to counter the lack of balance the current arena is plagued with. One of the strong points of the new arena I proposed is it has a smaller area but it still provides plenty of space to perform matches in and doesn't place too much importance on Initiative. Again I think whatever arena or arenas are used they should be tested on a few fights to see how they are working. I suggest testing the design on a few fights you moderate (making sure the people you are pitlording the fight for are aware of the arena's design). |
| Caterane05-31-04, 03:07 AM | @Jindl: Good work! I added it to the roster in place of mine (didn`t like the cross either). However, that`s a start. We still need to add more features. We can even remove others to compensate for the complexity. @all: A new idea came to my mind. What about a seperate Map Thread where all the maps (and maps alone) are posted. Every week pitlords may choose one of these maps if both gladiators agree. That way we can test different maps, and even if we settle down on one map in the end, we could always use the others still. |
| MotherBast05-31-04, 08:10 AM | Rayne: Actually, I don't belive the skills you mentioned will ever be used even in the arena you desined for the simple reason that a potion of fly will allow you to avoid all of those obsticals you have designed, while at the same time saving valuable skill points for "must have" skills like spot/listen and spellcraft/concentration. I know none of my characters would ever bother with climb or balance checks to move at half speed, when they could simply fly 60' instead. |
| Caterane05-31-04, 09:03 AM | Motherbast expressed exactly my thoughts when I saw this arena. However, there`s still a simple solution that I already proposed several times now: make one arena for each section on the roster. Rayne`s arena is perfect for low level characters (1-6) who don`t have the ressources to fly, at least not everyone. It`s also a smaller arena which is perfect for these levels. High-level arenas need a different approach. Obstacles have to reach to the top because flying will be common, and the arena has to be larger to match the increased speed. As I said, let`s make a thread where all maps are being posted so that they may be tested in future fights. After some weeks we might have found the best ones, but even then we could still use the optional ones from the "Map Thread" if both gladiators agree (or even request it). Cat @Jindl: Location (4/6) is the closest spot from point B to get a line of sight/effect towards A. It is 80ft away which every character with a horse can reach on round 1. |
| Jindl05-31-04, 09:48 AM | Originally posted by Caterane @Jindl: Location (4/6) is the closest spot from point B to get a line of sight/effect towards A. It is 80ft away which every character with a horse can reach on round 1. But they can't do anything because the horse double moved. According to the SRD, if your mount double moves and you wish to either cast a spell or make a ranged attack, that occurs at the midpoint of the movement. Which means the spell/ranged attack would occur after the mount moved 40 feet (ie. when no line of sight/line of effect exists). Also, there is significant penalties to ranged attacks when your mount double moves, and concentration checks to spellcasting for double moves. Keep one thing in mind, mobility and initiative are two of the most important facets of the DnD game, whether in the arena or in a real campaign. I'm not trying to design an arena that fully negates these advantages, rather I'm trying to design one that requires a greater amount of mobility in order to gain a reward, as well as placing a little less emphasis on initiative. -Jindl |
| ^Rayne^05-31-04, 12:59 PM | Rayne: Actually, I don't belive the skills you mentioned will ever be used even in the arena you desined for the simple reason that a potion of fly will allow you to avoid all of those obsticals you have designed, while at the same time saving valuable skill points for "must have" skills like spot/listen and spellcraft/concentration. I know none of my characters would ever bother with climb or balance checks to move at half speed, when they could simply fly 60' instead. Again I do not agree with your lack of wisdom MotherBast. One well placed Dispell Magic and your PC won't be flying anymore. Then you will wish you could swim, jump, climb, and have better balance skills. I do not like having to be forced to use gear I can fly with. All I really care about is if my PC's can move quickly and have a way to attack targets from long distance (this was one of my early problems with Aiki). Buying potions of fly is wasteful to win one or two fights with. I would rather use the accumulated resources to buy gear that will actually stay with him every match and make him stronger. A one shot item like a potion of fly can be dispelled and then your sad, no skill, PC is going to be on the ground crying to momma when his but is getting chewed apart because he can't get to higher ground. I do believe my arena design is important and should be adapted for more use in the arena. I've already run it through one test and it was very easy to run the fight in. I will continue to test the plan until I either come up with something even stronger or am content with the design as it exhists. |
| MotherBast05-31-04, 01:45 PM | If one dispel magic ruins your character, then your character isen't very good to start with. But, given your example, lets say that your PC dispel's my PC. I now, foolisly, have no other means to fly. So, now I'm in an arena full of obsticals. What is my advantage now? Well, to start with, I can still see and hear you, since I didn't waist an skill points on swim, jump, and climb.... so now, your PC can get to everywhere on the map, but what does he do once he is there, since he spent all his skill points getting there and can't see or hear? I like Cat's idea. If this arena is used for low level fights, with low resorces, the obsticals might actually see some limited amount of use, and be a factor in the fight somewhat. By level 7 or so, it dosen't matter whats in the arena, the gladiators have the resorces to overcomb it easly, without using any skill at all. Even a pure melee character will have more than one way to fly by that level, or he will be doomed in the fight anyway. High level fights happen in the air, 9 times out of 10. |
| Caterane05-31-04, 01:57 PM | Motherbast agrees with me? :eek: *marksdayincalender* Alright, I`ll open the Map thread |
| ^Rayne^05-31-04, 04:04 PM | If one dispel magic ruins your character, then your character isen't very good to start with. But, given your example, lets say that your PC dispel's my PC. I now, foolisly, have no other means to fly. So, now I'm in an arena full of obsticals. What is my advantage now? Well, to start with, I can still see and hear you, since I didn't waist an skill points on swim, jump, and climb.... so now, your PC can get to everywhere on the map, but what does he do once he is there, since he spent all his skill points getting there and can't see or hear? Your example is poor at best. A person can easily manage good spot and listen along with climb for example. A monk with good con modifier and Improved Grapple + Endurance could Bull Rush your PC into water, then use improved grapple in the water. He could drown your sad non-flying PC in the water easily avoiding the drowning penalties and then easily swim out after your PC is unconscious. Or a rogue could have those spot and listen skills and moved to high ground to avoid your fighter who had his flying magic dispelled and used ranged sneak attacks from high ground. How about a Rogue who needs to quickly make his way from the side plateau's to the center one because someone does have climb ability. They use a great balance check to manuever over the rope linking the two platforms and save tons of time. Again it is more than likely a PC could manage good spot and listen along with climb, balance, or swim skills. Your placing too much of your eggs into the flying ability and if it fails you have devalued the afore mentioned skills too much. There are a lot of ways good tactics could tear your PC apart if needed. |
| MotherBast05-31-04, 04:18 PM | Rayne, once you get some PCs to higher levels you will understand, if your PC can't fly when and where he needs to, then he has already lost the fight before it even begins. If your oponit can keep you grounded, while he flys, then he wins. So in any arena, at high levels, none of those skills matter, because your opponit WILL be flying, so if you can't, then you loose. If you don't belvie me, ask CAT. He is very protective of his large flying mounts, even though he could get airborn magicly. Multapil roughts to the air are a MUST in high level arena combat. Brackin, the only pure melee character at that level, has not only 3 potions of fly, but 2 rings of counterspell to guard aginst dispel magic. One thing Brackin has learned, at that level, you fly, or you die. |
| Caterane05-31-04, 04:23 PM | Originally posted by MotherBast Rayne, once you get some PCs to higher levels you will understand, if your PC can't fly when and where he needs to, then he has already lost the fight before it even begins. If your oponit can keep you grounded, while he flys, then he wins. So in any arena, at high levels, none of those skills matter, because your opponit WILL be flying, so if you can't, then you loose. That`s surely not true. You`re essentially saying if someone cannot reach you he has lost. It may be true for your monk who delights in melee and nothing else but for most characters this just means they have to use ranged attacks. Non-flying spellcasters won`t have a problem at all, and the warriors can shoot arrows at the flying one. In fact, Rayne`s arena provides far more cover and possibilities for non-flyers vs flyers than any other map I`ve seen so far. I like Rayne`s enthusiasm and effort he puts into this map and this is the top favorite for the lowlevel roster, for now. Of course, you can always post your own suggestion for a map... |
| MotherBast05-31-04, 04:36 PM | I agreed that for a low level fight Rayne's map would provide more options. My point is that none of those "obsticals" will be obsticals at all in high level fights, because in high level fights, 9 times out of 10 the fight happens in the air. And as far as proving what I'm saying, just read the high level fights. How many stay on the ground? Even spellcasters will fly simply for the better movement.... Just being airborn isen't the only benifit of flying. Mobility is the second most important facit of combat in D&D, just behind initative, at high levels. For you examples, I have yet to see an archer reach the highest level in the arena. Bows simply can not compete with the damage output a flying caster can rain down. So, if your stuck on the ground with a bow, while you target is flying around, your probably in a very bad way..... If your a spell caster, then you aren't grounded. Or you have the option to ground your foe as well, with dispels. But, if somehow you oponit can force you to stay on the groud, and keep himself in the air, well then he has the advantage of not only manaverability, but also dictates the range at wich the combat will take place. So, unless your tactics were writen fully expecting your opponit to contol those aspects of the combat, your probably also in a bad way.... While its possible to win if your opponit total controls the air and denies you access to it, I can't remember a single fight where it actually happened, and if there are any, they are few and far between, and will only happen under very specific circumstances. Just like 9 out of 10 high level fights end up in the air, I would say that 9 out of 10 times the flyer will beat his grounded opponit. |
| Caterane05-31-04, 04:39 PM | Well, Oetzi was a killer archer, and he surely would`ve made it to the top had Hatze him not retired because he was too boring to play. |
| MotherBast05-31-04, 04:44 PM | Maybe. We may never know. Anyway, in all that I forgot my orrigional point, which was this. Rayne expects this map to change the way people build there characters, hoping they will build them to take use of all the new options. My point is that that will not occure, at least not to any noticable extent, because people know that those skill points will become useless at higher levels, and will spend them on skills that will remain usefull throughout the life of the character. I don't think many people post builds they don't expect to play past 6th level, and no arena will have "obsticals" for a gladiator of any higher level. At least, none of our current arenas. I'm not just picking on Rayne, just pointing out that his map is not going to have the effect he hopes it will have. |
| Caterane05-31-04, 04:53 PM | So what? Let`s take balance. Even if a gladiator is not going to spend skills in there, a dexterious elf (let`s say Dex18) could use the ropes to get to the other side (Dc15, only falls down on a rolled 5). There`s a risk but the melee monster orc is stuck on the other side. If he invests only one or two skillpoints he could count on this tactic throughout low levels. The orc meleer (Str20) on the other hand could now use jump to cross the chasm to the other side *dang* he used another skill we`ve never seen so far. And how did both get up there in the first place? Ah yes, climb of course. You see, you donīt necessarily need ranks to use the features. And there`s more: even if both`re not using any skill then this arena surely grants far more tactical options than the current one thus providing us with more interesting fights. Rayne`s last fight was the first one in a long time where I actually followed the movement with a pencil on the map. As for higher level maps, well, that`s another issue but since we`ve got plenty of bright heads we`ll find a solution... |
| ^Rayne^05-31-04, 05:58 PM | Thanks Caterane for your many persuasive arguments. I really appreciate your efforts to make these arena designs fair for all builds. I would like to add one or two of my own arguements to the great ones you made. Motherbast you say the following... For you examples, I have yet to see an archer reach the highest level in the arena. Bows simply can not compete with the damage output a flying caster can rain down. So, if your stuck on the ground with a bow, while you target is flying around, your probably in a very bad way..... If your a spell caster, then you aren't grounded. A great reason you haven't seen much of the bow's use (or power for that matter) in the arena is because the current arena we've all been forced to use is poorly designed. If the arena had been the one I proposed an archer would fair much better. One of the archer's biggest weaknesses in the current arena is not being able to get away from mounted combatants with charging ability and 2nd they can't get to high ground where they can find cover and also have a good amount of ranged options. My arena specifically targets these problems with height variations. If an Archer with great climbing skill were to get to the higher plateau (60' up) with cover and a the ability to walk fully around it to shoot at air targets from any direction then they have a clear advantage in this design. In the current arena they were stuck on the ground with no place to go to avoid charges from mounted riders. This made them very weak. On top of that a gladiator that flew to the ceiling easily avoided most ranged weapons. This isn't the case anymore if 60' up on a platform that overlooks the entire arena can become a prime perch for a great ranged combatant. You will see these builds if the arena is fair to their skill set. One ring of feather fall and this build is very affective from the high platforms and can easily control their own destiny. You are fighting a design that seeks to even out the build designs. I'm trying to build an arena that makes all designs work, even the ones, god forbid, that don't want to use flight! You can say it is suicide but I believe it should be a valid option if done well. There are ways to counter a dispel but someone can always find a way to ruin your flight idea. A person could use Ray of Fatigue on your PC's mount or one with natural ability to fly and suddenly the light load amount isn't light anymore and down goes the mount and/or person with wings or whatever. There will be players who think of ways to bring down flyers and some builds won't be handicapped when this happens if the arena design is built to take advantage of all skills D&D has to offer. It isn't fair that because you devalue them, they are obsolete for the rest of us to test and use. I for one don't want to have all my PC's flying around the arena, and I will be working on ways to make sure flying PC's pay for underestimating the ground based warrior! You and others are trying to dictate terms for the rest of us about what is a valued build and what isn't by limiting the arena's features. I am not about to concede these skills as useless and I won't be making any arena builds that devalue any of the skills that are part of the D&D core rules. |
| Captain Mutilate05-31-04, 07:32 PM | I keep hearing flying come up. Why don't we have an anti-flying generator type idea? It can be 5 by 5, in the middle, and has DR 2/- and 40 HP. If one wants to fly, they have to destroy it first. This would be devastating to lower levels for those who rely on wings. |
| Captain Mutilate05-31-04, 07:35 PM | And going along with the bow argument... What if one was to buy some shortspears and stick them into the ground? Stakes, people. Ever heard of Agincourt? What I think is bogging down the arena more than the map is the.. well.. C0reness of it all. I have no problem with core builds, core races, etc etc. but how come we have to be core with our ideas and all that? There isn't a core solution to everything, so personally I think pitlords should be freed up a bit to 'wing it' if one has a wacky idea such as the stakes. Most of the arena should be core, the rest should be common sense. |
| Arstimis05-31-04, 08:48 PM | Just a suggestion, but it would help greatly against builds that rely on flying How about there are overhangs. Or maybe a big pillar in the middle is open below it, so someone could go under and get cover from flyers, or maybe there could be bunkers I realize this would be difficult to show on a 2-d map, but its just an idea |
| MotherBast05-31-04, 11:44 PM | Rayne, I'm not saying the things you describe wont happen in your arena, what I am saying is that it wont happen past the lower levels, and it will not effect the way characters are built in the arena. That platform of yours is a great idea, buy by level 7, the casters in the arena can be on top of it on the first round. If the archer can't find a way to keep up with that, then his biggest advantage untill this point will suddenly be his greatest weakness. How does he fix it? Well, he buys a potion of fly and flys to the top instead of spending rounds moving to and climbing the obstical of choice. My point is, at high levels, none of the "new" arenas will greatly effect gladiator tactics, with the exception of eliminating the "bum rush" approch of targeting your opponit on the first round. I've been on the board for a long time. I have seen the trends come and go. Here is a breakdown of how melees get themselves through the first 4 fights, and how it has evolved. In the early days, meleers used 2 tactics above all others. Improved trip with a spike chain, and the mounted charge. The trippers eventulay fadded away, and were replaced by wooden weapons and shilliaghs, while the mounted builds switched to tower shields and full attacks with the mount. Lately, Improved Sunder has started to catch on among the melees, and a lot of the new mounted builds replaced the towershild with the Composit Longbow, and use the quickmount option to reach the foe on round 1. I see none of these melee trends being affected by the changes in the arena. The warhorse will still be the method of choice to get through the first few levels for the melee character, and skill points will still be spent on Ride/Handel Animal, and the all important Spot/Listen. For wizards, in the begining the stratgy of choice was a Shocking Grasp spell and a flying familure. That was eventually replaced by color spray/sleep and a CDG. Currently, the method of choice for the lower levels is a 9th level MM scroll or a fireball scroll. Again, I don't see changing the arena making any of these stratiges less effective, with the exception of Color spray/sleep, which has already been replaced. No, the new arenas actually make the MM/Fireball stratgy more effective, as they give the low level wizard the chance to prepare himself first, whitout having to worry about his spells being disrupted by fast archers, or being reached on the first turn by quickmounting riders. Again, the wizard will not change the way he spends his skillpoints, as the various "movement" skills will have no value to him at higer levels when he can telaport and fly at will. Clerics and Druids, already the two strongest classes in the arena, will get a big boost from the new arenas, as now they will have even more time to apply the buffs that make them sooooo untouchable in the arena. But really, a cleric is always going to do well, in any envirnment, simply because WotC designed them to be the most powerful class so as to encourage play. Druids also are likely to do well in any "arena" invironment, as they all happen in open areas, where the Druid is not limited in the use of his powers as he would be in the typical dungen. So the new arenas will not affect the builds of either of these types of characters. If the Monk got more skill points, I would say the new arena might benifit him more, but unfortunatly, the monk can not afford to spend points on Int, so his 4 skillpoints will always be Hide/Move Silent and Spot/Listen, so that he can get close enough to his opponit to use his melee skills. There are no "ranged" monk builds that I am aware of. The Ranger and the Rogue are the two classes I see that might actually gain any benifit from the new arena at all, as they both have the skillpoints to possibly dip into the new skill options. However, if they do, they know that those are skills that will be usless at higer levels, espically if the idea of Cats about maps being used for each level bracket is used. A rogue might dip into a few ranks of Balance or Climb, but more likely will save the valuable skill points and instead use all the nifty new hiding places while never moving very far at all from his starting position. He can force his target to come searching for him, and pick his time to sneak attack. The way I run the current arena, anyone that hides is hidden. You do not know what rock they are behind, and you will not see them if they move to a different rock, as long as they pass the next hide check, so for fights I run, I don't see the new obsticals as effecting the hiding ability of rogues much, but it does give them a lot of new places to go. As for the ranger, if he is a melee I've already addressed his issues, so I will adress the archers here. All of the changes to the arena will make it harder on the archer. The archer's biggest advantage was fast and early damage. If an archer beat the caster on init, he always had the option to either try to end him on the first round, or ready vs. the caster's spell. Those options are gone to the archer. He now must spend several rounds getting himself into position, meanwhile his opponit is either closeing on him, or buffing themselves to the point that the archer will be handycaped by the time he can actually fire an arrow at his foe. So, while adding all the new areas to the map gives the archer a lot more places to shoot from, it makes it much harder for him to ever actually shoot. And the fighter/archer will not have the skill points to even think about Jump/climb. The ranger/archer might, but why, when he knows the skills will be usless in 5 fights, when he can drink a potion of fly first round, move to his favorite sniping spot, all before his foe ever aquires LOS to even attempt a dispel. No, the new arenas are good, for the origonal purpose, which was to reduce the value of initative in the arena. But I do not see any of them altering the way character in the arena are built or played. |