Post/Author/DateTime	Post
T'Var 02-24-05, 09:21 AM	Times up Stop editing now
One_Winged_Angel 02-24-05, 09:52 AM	Yay! So pairings should be up! *Goes to look.* What? What is this herasy! You must perish! Burn! *Pause* We're sorry. Sean was restrained due to insanity. He was reaching for that flamethrower like he intended to use it. Anyway, anyone ever been to Canada? Its really great up there. Lots of animals. Like the majestic moose. They're really dangerous. No, really! My sister was bit my a moose once. It hurt. *Pause* We would like to apologize for the strangeness. Those responsible have been sacked. *Pause* Stupid alternate personalities and voices in my head. *Pause* \/\/007! 1st Post! ph33|2 d4 1337|\|355!!!!!!!!!!
Sindorin 02-24-05, 10:10 AM	Ah, yes, forgot that the deadline had moved. Damn History test... :weep: Remember to be nice!!!
SnarkHunter 02-24-05, 12:04 PM	Shoopa do pa!
Snommelp 02-24-05, 02:48 PM	I've got to be at a jazz festival in less than an hour, so my tactics might not be in with their normal swiftness. Also, to whomever I pitlord for: I would prefer tactics by PM, if possible.
Khaz_Gu 02-24-05, 03:28 PM	So when are pairings gonna be up ?
Sindorin 02-24-05, 03:30 PM	Soon :) Cat's working on them as we post.
Pitlords 02-24-05, 05:08 PM	Pairings Done! Send Tactics to your pitlords asap Pitlords may begin running fights without tactics on saturday Fights must be up before Tuesday 8 AM GMT! Late penalties after that Credits for Pitlording/Questlording: +4: Kaigan +3: OneWingedAngel, Naerdaloth +2: Caterane, T'Var, Pittbull, Snommelp +1: Cellardweller, Snarkhunter, Sindorin, Huan, Einzelgaenger, Beldin, MadCowTemplate, MysticMonk2005, Ayatoshi, Piuro, Spasheridan Credits for Active Characters/Questers: -2: Kaigan -1: Beldin, Jindl, Snommelp Miscellaneous Changes: +2: T'Var (Aborted Quest), Huan (Aborted Quest) +1: Caterane (Administration) Credit Changes Total: +4: T'Var +3: OneWingedAngel, Naerdaloth, Caterane, Huan +2: Pittbull, Kaigan +1: Cellardweller, Snarkhunter, Sindorin, Einzelgaenger, MadCowTemplate, MysticMonk2005, Ayatoshi, Piuro, Spasheridan, Snommelp +0: Beldin -1: Jindl Comments: Please send your tactics early so that we can keep up with the timeframe. We had 6 late fights this week of which 2 are still not up. This is exectionally annoying for the ones involved. Run your fight early; that makes things a lot easier. ...because not only your (pitlord-)work is done but you will have enough time to correct any mistakes. In order to minimize problems in fights I suggest to do a short prefight discussion with the player to make sure everything has been understood. It will save a lot of time and headaches. T'Var and Huan get 2 credits back because their quests have been aborted which brings me to an important point: 2 out of 3 Quests have been aborted. I don't want to point a finger on Ash and Snark - Ash is ill and busy and I don't want Snark's new girlfriend being upset with me - but we still need to make sure Quests will be up on time. From now on a Questlord needs to send any important information to me or Ash (me only, at the moment) and not just XP/Treasure as it was until now. That's more because I want to see that your Quest is already complete and ready to run rather than to check your stats. Additionally, a Questlord won't receive credits if he hasn't kept the timeframe the previous week. I think these two points will increase the chance for successful completion of Quests. If you are unsure about something, write me a PM; I am here. @Beldin: please write the correct date into the headline; next time. Ok, new week, new luck! Cat
Dalton Onestone 02-24-05, 05:32 PM	Wahoo! Kwerrock gets to fight Uhlm. the Old! This should be fun, win or lose. @cellardweller -- please be so kind as to roll init @cat -- fyi, Kwerrock will be riding his light warhorse for this match, so take your Sleep spells and shove 'em someplace impolite. I haven't decided for sure what equipment he'll leave at home to take the weight on the horse under the 230 pound limit, but it's probably barding, shield, and glaive.
Pitlords 02-24-05, 05:40 PM	Finael Owlguide (Spasheridan) vs Rose the Explorer (SnarkHunter): Ayatoshi has been added to the Roster. Ayatoshi +1, Snarkhunter -1
cellardweller 02-24-05, 06:44 PM	Tactics Status - Janelle - sent via email Damon - sent via email Uhme (init "18"+x) - received Kwerrock (init "3"+x) - received Fight ETA 2pm Monday GMT
Caterane 02-24-05, 07:12 PM	@CD: :eek: you're kidding!? @Snark: tictacs sent
Snommelp 02-24-05, 07:15 PM	I want a Tic Tac! :( Tactics for Snomm sent, T'Var.
T'Var 02-24-05, 07:16 PM	I want a Tic Tac! :( Tactics for Snomm sent, T'Var. NO TIC-TAC FOR YOU! tactic received
spasheridan 02-24-05, 07:30 PM	@ Ayatoshi: Tactics for Finael sent. @ Kaigan: If you need me to send tactics for Fyhir let me know whats this I see about tic-tacs?? :D
Kaigan 02-24-05, 08:47 PM	@Spasheridan: Yes please send me tactics, LLMadCow has not forwarded them, or anything, so please, send again. Thanks. @O_W_A, T'Var, Snommelp, and Piuro: I won't be able to send tactics till tomorrow night, I got two midterms tomorrow, so it's study, study, study, then i'll write those tactics. Thanks.
Jindl 02-24-05, 09:26 PM	@Cat- Jindl: +1 credit for WLD. :D
Dalton Onestone 02-24-05, 10:50 PM	@T'Var: If it's convenient, could you please roll init for GrandElf/Snommelp? If not, don't worry about it.
Iced 02-24-05, 11:00 PM	E-Mailed the tactics for Borrix
SnarkHunter 02-24-05, 11:05 PM	Got Cat's tactics. I won't have mine out till about 18 hours from now since I as well have a midterm I should be working on.
Sindorin 02-24-05, 11:54 PM	I have Viper's tictacs!. If I get tictacs from Huan then the fight can be run with fresh breath tomorrow.
Pittbull 02-25-05, 05:41 AM	Tactics of both of my characters have been sent to their pitlords (Snark and OWA) via E-mail.
One_Winged_Angel 02-25-05, 09:43 AM	Whee! Love the quickness! Tactics for my characters will be sent sometime today. I would have done them yesterday, but freak storm in SoCal knocked out power lines to my house. Who ever heard of lightning and hail in a desert? Tactics recieved for: Zubair and Dorian KoRn. Just to let everyone know, with the freak storms, I'm going to be requisting tactics for my fights are in NO LATER THAN SUNDAY!!! Monday is looking bad for me... I might run one on Monday, but please try to get tactics in by Sunday. Saturday would be Preferable. As per way I pitlord multiple fights, Zubair will be up sometime later on Saturday.
Huan 02-25-05, 10:29 AM	@MysticMonk2005 Tactics for Rook sent. Tatics for Nell will be sent later today.
OdinTheReaper 02-25-05, 02:28 PM	@OWA: Tactics for Odin sent. @Beldin: I'm writing Vycents tactics now and i will be sending them within the hour.EDIT: Im sending them through email because my pm box is getting pretty full.
Nanaleigh 02-25-05, 02:50 PM	Tactics for Alexis have been PM'd. Let me know if I sent it to the wrong guy again.
Huan 02-25-05, 03:02 PM	@Sindorin Tactics for Nell PMed. @Pitlords No credit for my stories eh? Not even an honorable mention? Man ... tough crowd, tough crowd ... well, I'll show you some serious writing with this coming fight of mine... ;) @Iced and OWA Do me a favor and include of RP in your tactics, okay? Not so much OWA though, since I already watch FMA and know his character. ;)
Caterane 02-25-05, 03:18 PM	@Cat- Jindl: +1 credit for WLD. :D I'm not doing this on purpose. I swear!! Credit added. @Huan: sorry, forgot to check the fights thread because pairings were already late.
Sindorin 02-25-05, 03:26 PM	Tictacs have been recievecd from Viper and Huan. Minty fresh ones. I will start running the fight, but I have to work soon but it will definitely be up later on.
Caterane 02-25-05, 03:27 PM	Honourable mentionings for Huan's story in the Anna vs Vyncent fight, Oz Savage vs Rayos Athess, and Mer-Man vs Korn. All together are worth a credit. Let's all thank almighty Huan, the story factory :bow: @Huan: If you add a story retroactively, make sure you let everyone know.
stinkygoblin 02-25-05, 03:39 PM	@ one winged i guess i need to send Rex's tactics to you now for the fight that was extended do u prefer email or pm
SnarkHunter 02-25-05, 03:52 PM	Recieved Pittbulls tactics, and sent of Rose's. Working on the Buddha's now.
Caterane 02-25-05, 03:53 PM	Tactics for Uhmentarymster sent to Cellardweller
Caterane 02-25-05, 04:23 PM	Recieved Pittbulls tactics, and sent of Rose's. Working on the Buddha's now. Took a shower, called my sister, and going to have dinner in a few (tomato soup with bread and butter). :D Sorry Snark
Dalton Onestone 02-25-05, 04:59 PM	Tactics for Uhmentarymster sent to Cellardweller Kwerrock's as well.
SnarkHunter 02-25-05, 04:59 PM	Took a shower, called my sister, and going to have dinner in a few (tomato soup with bread and butter). :D Sorry Snark ...<=is confused Anyway all tactics sent. Scent? Bah whatever.
Naerdaloth 02-25-05, 05:20 PM	tactics for Zaqh'sol PMd to mystic. Tactics recieved from xanadu and vipergtsmk
Huan 02-25-05, 06:51 PM	Honourable mentionings for Huan's story in the Anna vs Vyncent fight, Oz Savage vs Rayos Athess, and Mer-Man vs Korn. All together are worth a credit. Let's all thank almighty Huan, the story factory :bow: @Huan: If you add a story retroactively, make sure you let everyone know. Right, will do; thanks. :) Timing was bad last week, it seems, with many, and I was no exception. Now that I have only one fight this week, I can pour more effort into it And do NOT think I forgot about Indri vs Brandt. I've been saving that as a sort of belated birthday present for you, Caterane. (I'm thinking I may write special super-detailed stories for everyone on their birthday.) @Iced, OWA No tactics recieved yet Oh, and someone asked how I pronounce my name ... it's not "hu -wahn" ... or "Juan" ... it's "HYU - enn" ... bonus points to anyone who knows where I got that name from!
Beldin 02-25-05, 07:32 PM	All tactics have been sent to their Pitlords. Have fun. Tactics received from Nanaleigh
Caterane 02-25-05, 07:52 PM	Archangel Ixenthor has been added to the Roster. Docked 8 credits from my account. @Beldin: confirmed
Kaigan 02-25-05, 07:52 PM	I'm missing one set of tactics, I have Evram's, Zeem's, and Fyhir's. I just sent Rayos' tactics to T'Var via PM. Others will be sent shortly.
One_Winged_Angel 02-25-05, 07:58 PM	Got tactics for Odin @Goblin that smells: E-mail, if you'd please. My PM box isn't reliable for some reason. @Huan: Cool, though I figured you were into the anime/video games by your avatar ;)
Kaigan 02-25-05, 08:13 PM	@OWA aka Sean: Sent tactics for Tianas via PM. @Piuro: Sent tactcis for Risal via PM. @Snommelp: Sent tactics for Aeiou via PM. @T'Var: Sent tactics for Rayos via PM.
OdinTheReaper 02-25-05, 08:56 PM	@Beldin: Sorry it took so long to get Vyncents tactics sent...we had the power go out at my house for about 4 hours..it sucked..I sent them through email...itll be from wraider227....thanks
One_Winged_Angel 02-25-05, 09:10 PM	@OWA aka Sean: Sent tactics for Tianas via PM. Got 'em. But I requested by E-mail, Alex. @Huan: Tactics are in. Sorry if they're a bit lengthy. RP is stapled on as well. @Snommelp: Tactics Sent for Kailia. Now, off to run some fights!
Piuro 02-25-05, 09:57 PM	Damon Tharkis (Cellardweller) vs Risal Atess (Kaigan): Piuro I never said i would be available to fight this week. That and i'm NOT available to run a fight this week.
Zepher 02-25-05, 10:34 PM	@Caterane, MadCowTemplate Tactics for Kiyo and Razor have been sent.
Iced 02-25-05, 10:44 PM	@Huan: Sent tactics for Borrix via E-Mail, but I guess they didn't make it, so I PM'd them to you just now. Thanks for running the fights!
Arstimis 02-25-05, 10:50 PM	@ Caterane: Both set of tactics sent via email
Huan 02-25-05, 11:01 PM	@Iced and OWA Tactics recieved for both Borrix and the Flame Alchemist, thank you both. Yeah, I did not recieve Borrix's original tactics by email. If there was something in there that you forgot in your PM, you are welcome to resend. But, do so quickly, for I will do the fight tomorrow morning.
Dalton Onestone 02-25-05, 11:48 PM	GrandElf's tactics PMed to T'Var.
One_Winged_Angel 02-25-05, 11:55 PM	KoRn vs. Odin (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5535826&postcount=1320) is up. Let's just say that there was 45 damage done to a gladiator in a single round.
OdinTheReaper 02-26-05, 12:50 AM	@owa: How come u never activated my whip after downing the potion?
Snommelp 02-26-05, 12:53 AM	All tactics recieved. I'll try to get started on the fights after the Jazz festival ends tomorrow. By then, maybe the smile that concert put on my face will finally start to go away. :D
One_Winged_Angel 02-26-05, 12:59 AM	@owa: How come u never activated my whip after downing the potion? I did. However, you were dead before it could be used. Read the discription. It acts just like a dancing weapons. Unless you specify targets, it can't attack. Since he was invisible up to the point he attacked, it was not able to be directed at him.
OdinTheReaper 02-26-05, 01:15 AM	Oh duh...i forgot he was invisible...my bad :banghead:
One_Winged_Angel 02-26-05, 01:24 AM	Oh duh...i forgot he was invisible...my bad :banghead: heh. Don't worry. I've complained about stuff like that before. Oh, BTW, I realized thanks to a person who apparently wished to remain anonymous that I forgot to roll your listen check to hear force screen. Since you would at the time be some distance away (By what I have on word, due north of the central obstical), you would know general location, but not exact local. Since its around the central obstical, I just had you hang around there. BTW, I had redundent MS/Listen checks on the online roller if you really want to check.
T'Var 02-26-05, 01:27 AM	last round of Odin vs KoRn. he doenst provoke attacks from the horse at all, Hide From animals is still ongoing. it only stops when you attack an animal, not its Rider.
One_Winged_Angel 02-26-05, 01:29 AM	last round of Odin vs KoRn. he doenst provoke attacks from the horse at all, Hide From animals is still ongoing. it only stops when you attack an animal, not its Rider. ... Well, sorry guys, looks like T'Var's point changed the entire outcome of the fight! :D
Snommelp 02-26-05, 01:30 AM	last round of Odin vs KoRn. he doenst provoke attacks from the horse at all, Hide From animals is still ongoing. it only stops when you attack an animal, not its Rider. Nope. "If a warded creature touches an animal or attacks any creature, even with a spell, the spell ends for all recipients."
Dalton Onestone 02-26-05, 01:32 AM	Speaking of which -- I've always assumed you can't use Hide From Animals when mounted. What about touch spells? It's said you can't touch any creature or anything at all without the spell dissipating, but that can't be meant literally or else you couldn't even touch the ground and so on. Do they perhaps mean that you can't touch with your hand? That would work pretty well.
Snommelp 02-26-05, 01:35 AM	No, you're just not allowed to touch animals. You can touch other creatures without ending the spell, and you can most certainly touch the ground.
Sindorin 02-26-05, 02:00 AM	I never said i would be available to fight this week. That and i'm NOT available to run a fight this week. I can pick this one up if the tactics get to me by sunday.
spasheridan 02-26-05, 02:18 AM	Well, my 1st attempt at pitlording is up. Check it out. Link (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5536448) I didn't know how tough it would be to count out all the darn spaces as people moved around.
Dalton Onestone 02-26-05, 03:07 AM	Spasheridan, I know he had a 60% chance of failure of making a DC 15 Concentration check, but are you sure he wouldn't have been better off trying to make his Concentration checks anyway?
cellardweller 02-26-05, 03:39 AM	I never said i would be available to fight this week. That and i'm NOT available to run a fight this week. Can anyone take over this fight (Damon vs Rissal)? I necissary I can run your allocated fight if it means you can do this one.
spasheridan 02-26-05, 03:48 AM	@Dalton- Rnd 1 was the only real choice he had. Either rapid fire at Ripper or go for the mage armor. I figured that the bow was better because he had 2 attacks.. If he had a 50% chance of getting the scroll off I would have taken it, but below 50% it seemed like a waste. I struggled with that choice for a while, so then I looked at the PC and thought... what would I do in that situation?? With all those archery feats and high dex I knew I would go with my strength, shoot the bow. Rnd 2 he tried and failed Rnd 3 he was in hth and defensive casting is just as bad but now you need 2 rolls, defensive & entangle checks. No way it'll work now. I wonder why he doesn't have Zactor wear a chain shirt. 20% spell failure means 1/5 combats he has 2 spend 2 rounds casting shield to get his buffs up, 4/5 combats he gets his buffs up on rnd 1. Just a thought...
Pitlords 02-26-05, 03:50 AM	Damon Tharkis (Cellardweller) vs Risal Atess (Kaigan) has been reassigned to SnarkHunter. Piuro -1 credit, Snarkhunter+1 @Piuro: you need to send a PM to the Pitlords Account if you want to change something, like the number of fights you want to run.
Caterane 02-26-05, 06:47 AM	Arthemus vs Tethtain Kara vs Kiyo
Arstimis 02-26-05, 08:39 AM	Arthemus vs Tethtain Kara vs Kiyo Cool, thanks for the fights Cat Only one thing, you should have emailed me back about how I said to use potion of pro from evil in Kara's fight against the LN monk. I could have swore i put pro from law on there. But since it didnt matter at all in the fight, Im not worried about it. Thanks again
SnarkHunter 02-26-05, 10:50 AM	got Damon's tactics, look for the fight(s) Sunday, or more likely Monday.
T'Var 02-26-05, 11:21 AM	@Dalton- Rnd 1 was the only real choice he had. Either rapid fire at Ripper or go for the mage armor. I figured that the bow was better because he had 2 attacks.. If he had a 50% chance of getting the scroll off I would have taken it, but below 50% it seemed like a waste. I struggled with that choice for a while, so then I looked at the PC and thought... what would I do in that situation?? With all those archery feats and high dex I knew I would go with my strength, shoot the bow. Rnd 2 he tried and failed Rnd 3 he was in hth and defensive casting is just as bad but now you need 2 rolls, defensive & entangle checks. No way it'll work now. I wonder why he doesn't have Zactor wear a chain shirt. 20% spell failure means 1/5 combats he has 2 spend 2 rounds casting shield to get his buffs up, 4/5 combats he gets his buffs up on rnd 1. Just a thought... you ran the fight well. i did forget to write about being entangled my bad. he doesnt have a shirt because that was the quest he was on for, but that quest was canceled a day before parings so just through something together and no concentration skill because....well...intel of 8 leaves little room for skill points :)
Kaigan 02-26-05, 11:49 AM	@Snark: Sent tactics for Risal.
Jindl 02-26-05, 01:37 PM	@Pittbull - Tactics PM'd for the Elder (sorry for the delay).
Caterane 02-26-05, 03:29 PM	Cool, thanks for the fights Cat Only one thing, you should have emailed me back about how I said to use potion of pro from evil in Kara's fight against the LN monk. I could have swore i put pro from law on there. But since it didnt matter at all in the fight, Im not worried about it. Thanks again Agreed. I should've used the Law potion right away. Didn't realize that Kiyo wasn't evil until I calculated his Ac later. Has been corrected.
MysticMonk2005 02-26-05, 04:58 PM	All tactics recieved. Both tactics PM'd to Pittbull
spasheridan 02-26-05, 05:59 PM	you ran the fight well. i did forget to write about being entangled my bad. he doesnt have a shirt because that was the quest he was on for, but that quest was canceled a day before parings so just through something together and no concentration skill because....well...intel of 8 leaves little room for skill points :) Thanks! And yeah, an Int of 8 sure can have drawbacks!
xanadu 02-26-05, 11:07 PM	Thanks! And yeah, an Int of 8 sure can have drawbacks! Yeah spasheridan, I thought you ran the fight well and your interjection of the rules can help in confusing situations.
Land Outcast 02-26-05, 11:53 PM	tactics sent to OWA on friday
Dalton Onestone 02-27-05, 12:42 AM	@Cat -- LOL!. But hey, judging by the two fights you posted this week, this buffing stuff really works! I can't wait to see Uhm.'s tactics vs. Kwerrock. Uhm. was one of the builds Kwerrock was designed against, in no small part because he's #1 on the character list ....
Snommelp 02-27-05, 12:57 AM	Kailia vs. Fenir is up. Two big comments, one for each player. OWA, read your powers more carefully. They don't all work exactly like you thought. Piuro, your comment about Kailia being an android was unwarranted. You claimed your complaint was because of roleplaying, and yet I haven't seen you in the RP thread in quite some time. Besides that, why can't Kailia be an android, especially considering the fact that Ash has a Warforged monk? It's the same concept.
One_Winged_Angel 02-27-05, 01:08 AM	Kailia vs. Fenir is up. Two big comments, one for each player. OWA, read your powers more carefully. They don't all work exactly like you thought. Urm, care to specify on that one? I don't see it writen in any specific place, and I see my powers working, so...? And Piuro picked my build to critisize on being an unusual adaptation? With Cat and Ash around? Hmmm. Again, I take all critisism of characters as signs of fear. So, in a way, I'm kinda flattered. Ok, on my fights, probably up on late sundey/monday. Darn homework...
Snommelp 02-27-05, 01:14 AM	Urm, care to specify on that one? I don't see it writen in any specific place, and I see my powers working, so...? This was mainly centered around Energy Stun. You had me do Cold damage, then pointed out his reflex save when it should have been fortitude. Also, from your tactics it looked like you thought that the failed save meant an instant stun, rather than the failed save causing a will save. If I'm wrong, just ignore that comment. You also had me overchannel Inertial Armor. All that did was add an extra hour to the three-hour duration. It seemed like an odd tactical choice.
One_Winged_Angel 02-27-05, 01:18 AM	This was mainly centered around Energy Stun. You had me do Cold damage, then pointed out his reflex save when it should have been fortitude. Also, from your tactics it looked like you thought that the failed save meant an instant stun, rather than the failed save causing a will save. If I'm wrong, just ignore that comment. You also had me overchannel Inertial Armor. All that did was add an extra hour to the three-hour duration. It seemed like an odd tactical choice. 1) No, I just was hoping she would fail both. 2) Ah. That would be me being a moron. I meant to overchannel force screen. I do so hate it when I mess up that...oh well. My inertial armor should still be in effect... :)
Snommelp 02-27-05, 01:54 AM	Alright. As long as it was assumptions and idiocy, I withdraw that comment. Except I'm too lazy to actually delete it.
Einzelgaenger 02-27-05, 04:27 AM	Tactics recieved from both parties. For what it's worth, Aureus vs Rose is fixed whether or not the result officially changes.
Iced 02-27-05, 02:27 PM	Is the fight with Borrix up yet? I think Huan is the pitmaster, am I missing it (quite possible), or is it not up in the fight thread yet? I can't wait to see Borrix crush that pathetic psionic/wizard magical opponent of mine...:P Go dwarf tank!
Dalton Onestone 02-27-05, 03:14 PM	@Cellardweller: 1. Thanks for running the fight! 2. I love the outcome!!! Especially given that Kwerrock didn't do all the buffing he usually does. ;) 3. I don't understand the spellcraft rolls. Were they misnamed concentration, by any chance? 4. This win-init/ready/interrupt-buff tactic is an interesting one. Could it have been defeated if I'd had Kwerrock single move first and buff second, rather than the other way around? 5. Tough call on the emergency heals at 1 HP. It's very tempting to cast Silence instead, because neither Uhm nor the horse can attack once that's been successfully cast. 6. Obviously, when I was down to 1 HP he should have had Eule peck at me trying for one point of additional damage. But since it was tough on me for not saying "move or buff, whichever makes sense to do first", I guess it's tough on him for not making the point about Eule.
One_Winged_Angel 02-27-05, 04:05 PM	Is the fight with Borrix up yet? I think Huan is the pitmaster, am I missing it (quite possible), or is it not up in the fight thread yet? I can't wait to see Borrix crush that pathetic psionic/wizard magical opponent of mine...:P Go dwarf tank! Bring it, shorty! :D
Caterane 02-27-05, 04:17 PM	@Cellardweller: The AoO against Eule should never happen because I 5ft stepped out of the warhorses reach -> Eule won't get hit/downed, and will deliver the Shocking grasp. Please correct this. Besides, I don't think an enchantment spell triggers the defend trick.
T'Var 02-27-05, 04:19 PM	Kailia vs. Fenir is up. Two big comments, one for each player. Show Your Work. add the rolls, modifiers, ect to the fight so they are visable thanks
Jindl 02-27-05, 04:23 PM	@Cellardweller: The AoO against Eule should never happen because I 5ft stepped out of the warhorses reach -> Eule won't get hit/downed, and will deliver the Shocking grasp. Please correct this. Besides, I don't think an enchantment spell triggers the defend trick. Eule is tiny, so he draws an AoO when he enters the horse's square to attack. The defend trick is triggered by any attack. Tasha's laughter is an attack. -Jindl
spasheridan 02-27-05, 04:24 PM	@Cellardweller: The AoO against Eule should never happen because I 5ft stepped out of the warhorses reach -> Eule won't get hit/downed, and will deliver the Shocking grasp. Please correct this. Besides, I don't think an enchantment spell triggers the defend trick. Well, Eule is size tiny. Tiny creatures have a reach of 0, so it has to move 10 ft to attack (5 ft the distance and 5 ft into thr square that the target is in) so tha AoO is valid. As far as defend... you are throwing pies at him. Weather or not a war horse knows that a pie is a deadly weapon or not is another question. :D
Caterane 02-27-05, 04:31 PM	Heh, of course Eule is supposed to kill the 2 hp prone and laughing Kwerrock, as clearly written in my tactics. Tashas laughter does not produce any visual effect. I am merely waving my hands and an INT 2 creature does not recognize that as an offensive action.
Snommelp 02-27-05, 04:32 PM	@ T'Var: a simple please would have sufficed, rather than implying that my education was lacking.
spasheridan 02-27-05, 04:39 PM	Tashas laughter does not produce any visual effect. I am merely waving my hands and an INT 2 creature does not recognize that as an offensive action. Hideous Laughter Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting] Level: Brd 1, Sor/Wiz 2 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Target: One creature; see text Duration: 1 round/level Saving Throw: Will negates Spell Resistance: Yes This spell afflicts the subject with uncontrollable laughter. It collapses into gales of manic laughter, falling prone. The subject can take no actions while laughing, but is not considered helpless. After the spell ends, it can act normally. A creature with an Intelligence score of 2 or lower is not affected. A creature whose type is different from the caster’s receives a +4 bonus on its saving throw, because humor doesn’t “translate” well. Material Component: Tiny tarts that are thrown at the target and a feather that is waved in the air. See, you actually chuck pies at the guy. In any case, in D&D the term "attack" is well defined. If it would end an invis spell, it's an attack, and all creatures can react to it. Is this sensible?? Not really, but it's the rules.
Jindl 02-27-05, 04:45 PM	Heh, of course Eule is supposed to kill the 2 hp prone and laughing Kwerrock, as clearly written in my tactics. Why would he be prone? He is not helpless, and nothing in the spell indicates that he falls off his horse. As long as he is sharing a space with the horse, Eule draws an AoO when he attacks. Taking a 5 ft step is irrelevant, he draws the AoO for entering another creature's space.
Caterane 02-27-05, 04:47 PM	But he did fall off his horse. Even took 6 damage from the fall. The spell says you fall prone.
spasheridan 02-27-05, 04:56 PM	Yeah, the horse is next to the PC (because the PC fell off the horse). Eule enters the square the PC is in, incuriing an AoO. The PC is next to the horse, therefore the horse threatens the square that Eule enters Eule gets hit and smushed. Morale of the story: Only send the familiar in for the kill when all of the enemy is helpless, because he's got no HP and a bee sting will take him out. Just be glad you don't take XP loss for familiar death!
Snommelp 02-27-05, 05:00 PM	Yeah, the horse is next to the PC (because the PC fell off the horse). Eule enters the square the PC is in, incuriing an AoO. The PC is next to the horse, therefore the horse threatens the square that Eule enters Eule gets hit and smushed. You provoke an attack of opportunity when moving out of a threatened square, but not when moving into one. Now, if Eule had already been in a threatened square and had moved into a new threatened square, then the AoO would be justified (unless Eule took a five-foot step).
Caterane 02-27-05, 05:06 PM	Yeah, the horse is next to the PC (because the PC fell off the horse). [No, the horse moved towards me thus away from the PC] Eule enters the square the PC is in, incuriing an AoO. [No, see above] The PC is next to the horse, therefore the horse threatens the square that Eule enters [No, see above] Eule gets hit and smushed. [No, see above] Morale of the story: [...is: check positions first :P ] Only send the familiar in for the kill when all of the enemy is helpless, because he's got no HP and a bee sting will take him out. Just be glad you don't take XP loss for familiar death! So?
spasheridan 02-27-05, 05:07 PM	You provoke an attack of opportunity when moving out of a threatened square, but not when moving into one. Now, if Eule had already been in a threatened square and had moved into a new threatened square, then the AoO would be justified (unless Eule took a five-foot step). Interesting, and this could change the fight. now it matters what square the prone target is in.... I'll go poke my nose at the fight again and see what it said.
One_Winged_Angel 02-27-05, 05:11 PM	A general support to what Snommelp is saying: if you provoked an attack of opp every time you enter a threatened square, imagine charger builds...*Shudder*
Dalton Onestone 02-27-05, 05:20 PM	@ Besides, I don't think an enchantment spell triggers the defend trick. Doesn't matter. Magic Missiles already did.
spasheridan 02-27-05, 05:21 PM	*edited for length* Round 4 Uhmentarymster 1/11 (8,-13) Kwerrock 8/35 (-11,-18) shield(13) Round 5 kwerrock falls before his turn K's horse charges Uhmentarymster 3/11 (6,-15) Kwerrock 2/35 (3,-18) shield(13), THL(9) Kwerrock's Horse 22/22 (8,-16) charged Round 6 U's horse attacks and 5 fts back, U casts SG, Eule moves, AoO smashes it ded K's horse kills U Owl Speed: 10 ft. (2 squares), fly 40 ft. (average) Check the positions at the end of 4. Uhmentarymster 1/11 (8,-13) Kwerrock 8/35 (-11,-18) shield(13) K should fall in one of those squares. Rnd 5 positions Uhmentarymster 3/11 (6,-15) Kwerrock 2/35 (3,-18) shield(13), THL(9) Kwerrock's Horse 22/22 (8,-16) charged K should be in (-11,-18) U is in (6,-15) Distance is 17 squares so it's out of range or in charge range if shifted 5 feet bvecause of horse size.. which would mean E has to fly over the horse. Looking at posted locations: Uhmentarymster 3/11 (6,-15) Kwerrock 2/35 (3,-18) shield(13), THL(9) Kwerrock's Horse 22/22 (8,-16) charged (6,-15) to (3,-18) is 20 ft, so if this is the true position then E can fly around the horse and get the attack in no problem.
Pittbull 02-27-05, 05:23 PM	@OWA: Thank you for the cool story! I realy enjoyed it! You made one little mistake which didn't change the outcome. You calculated KoRn's duration of his psi-like abillity to 3 rounds. I think you frogot, that psi-like abillities can be augmented, like normal powers without paying PPs. So, KoRn (ML3) can use his abillity in this way, 1PP for activation and 2PPs for augmentation, which increases the duration from 1round/ml-lvl to 10 min/ml-lvl. But as I said, nothing which is important for the outcome. Thanks a lot for running the fight. :)
Jindl 02-27-05, 05:32 PM	But he did fall off his horse. Even took 6 damage from the fall. The spell says you fall prone. Ah, okay. I see where it says that in the spell now.
SnarkHunter 02-27-05, 05:57 PM	Who would have thought a few melee fighters slamming away at each other would be so boring. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=5547185#post5547185)
Pittbull 02-27-05, 06:08 PM	Damn it! Got no luck! But that happens! :cool:
Caterane 02-27-05, 06:17 PM	@Snark: You saved my day. Wait, Cellardweller can still save it too :) One thing: you cannot use your horse for cover and attack/cast in the same round. Re: Uhme vs Kwerrock. Here's a map which clearly shows that Eule can easily fly to the prone Kwerrock and deliver the shocking grasp after Uhmentarymster 5ft stepped away from Kwerrock's horse. http://home.arcor.de/caterane/Miscellaneous%20Pictures/Uhme-Kwerrock.jpg
One_Winged_Angel 02-27-05, 06:19 PM	Running fights... I'm running Dorian vs. Zubair now. Should be up soon. Also, Exalted Angel is now my avatar. Just so no one confuses me with Zepher. Not that that's likely to happen...
spasheridan 02-27-05, 06:24 PM	@ cat: Round 4 Uhmentarymster 1/11 (8,-13) Kwerrock 8/35 (-11,-18) shield(13) Round 5 Uhmentarymster 3/11 (6,-15) Kwerrock 2/35 (3,-18) shield(13), THL(9) Kwerrock's Horse 22/22 (8,-16) charged Do you see how Kwerrock moved in round 5? Do you see that Kwerock falls prone before his move on round 5? Do you see that Kwerrocks horse MUST be between Uhmen and Kwerrock because he charges at you? THese positions are obviuosly wrong, as I pointed out in my post. Why did you ignore the facts that contradict your position?
cellardweller 02-27-05, 06:34 PM	I suck at transcribing positions, this is an established fact. I run the fight by moving them around the ascii map, and everything is correct according to that. Kwerock moves and casts hideous laughter O O O O O O O B B O O O § O O O O @ O O B B O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O A A O O O O O O O O O O O A A O O O O O O O O O Kwerrock falls prone in an adjacent square O O O O O O O B B O O O § O O O O @ O O B B O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O X X O O O O O O O O O O A X X O O O O O O O O O Horse charges O O O O O O O B B O O O § O O O O @ O O B B O O O O O O O O O X X O O O O O O O O O O O X X O O O O O O O A O O O O O O O O O O O Uhme 5' steps back O O O O O O O O B B O O § O O O O @ O O O B B O O O O O O O O X X O O O O O O O O O O O X X O O O O O O O A O O O O O O O O O O O In order to reach Kwerrock on in a single round, Eule has to fly through a threatened area.
Caterane 02-27-05, 06:35 PM	I used the positions on the fights thread. Another thing: Did Eule trigger the defense trick? It didn't attack so I am not sure if it would provoke AoO's from the horse.
Dalton Onestone 02-27-05, 06:37 PM	@Cellardwellar, Upon rereading, I noticed one basic thing you overlooked: When Kwerrock failed his save on Hideous Laughter, he should have tried his luck reroll. (In other news, those points all numbered #1 were numbered in correct order when I wrote the tactics in Microsoft Word, but were translated to bullet points when I pasted into Eudora. I have no idea how you got that weird output.)
cellardweller 02-27-05, 06:40 PM	That's debatable, I would say yes because with an int of 2 the horse would see the amorphous mass of horse uhme and eule as a single enemy. I've got to get ready for work now, I'll check back to see what others think in a couple of hours.
cellardweller 02-27-05, 06:41 PM	@Cellardwellar, Upon rereading, I noticed one basic thing you overlooked: When Kwerrock failed his save on Hideous Laughter, he should have tried his luck reroll. (In other news, those points all numbered #1 were numbered in correct order when I wrote the tactics in Microsoft Word, but were translated to bullet points when I pasted into Eudora. I have no idea how you got that weird output.) I should have remembered this from playing Johan for so long :confused:. I'll alter the fight to accomodate this after my TT game finishes tonight. (re-roll "14"+9=23 vs DC20)
Caterane 02-27-05, 06:42 PM	Kwerock moves and casts hideous laughter O O O O O O O B B O O O § O O O O @ O O B B O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O A A O O O O O O O O O O O A A O O O O O O O O O Kwerrock falls prone in an adjacent square O O O O O O O B B O O O § O O O O @ O O B B O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O X X O O O O O O O O O O A X X O O O O O O O O O Horse charges O O O O O O O B B O O O § O O O O @ O O B B O O O O O O O O O X X O O O O O O O O O O O X X O O O O O O O A O O O O O O O O O O O Uhme 5' steps back O O O O O O O O B B O O § O O O O @ O O O B B O O O O O O O O X X O O O O O O O O O O O X X O O O O O O O A O O O O O O O O O O O Instead: Uhme 5' steps back O O O O O O O O O O O O § O O O O @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O X X O B B O O O O O O O O X X O B B O O O O A O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O ...and Eule can easily reach Kwerrock without flying through threatening spaces.
Dalton Onestone 02-27-05, 06:44 PM	On the Eule point, of course it is the case that he could get from Uhm. to Kwerrock without going within Horsey's AoO range. I don't know for sure whether he could have done so in either a 40 foot move or a charge, but I must confess that my guess is he could have. He'd still have to make his attack roll, however, but that's unfortunately a very easy roll. I have another doubt too -- can Uhm. ride through a horse full attack and then cast a spell the same turn without having to make a Concentration check?
cellardweller 02-27-05, 06:46 PM	thats 6 squares west, one square south and 2 diagonal movements =45' (I think you missed the moment into Kwerrock's square). But it is a moot point with the luck domain reroll anyway.
Dalton Onestone 02-27-05, 06:47 PM	@Cat: Your last picture looked to me like a 10' step, not a 5' one.
Caterane 02-27-05, 06:50 PM	O O O O O O B B O O O O § O O O O @ O B B O O O O O O O O O O X X O O O O O O O O O O O X X O O O O O O O A O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O But now it is only 35 ft
Dalton Onestone 02-27-05, 07:00 PM	I'll alter the fight to accomodate this after my TT game finishes tonight. (re-roll "14"+9=23 vs DC20) Interesting. I think from the tactics as I wrote them you should go with whichever of Mirror Image or a grapple attempt makes the most sense to you, unless you think some third course of action is clearly better. I'm content to leave it at that.
Dalton Onestone 02-27-05, 07:03 PM	If the 5' step doesn't take Uhm. out of the reach of Horsey, then the casting of Shocking Grasp should provoke an AoO. Also, sure it's reasonable to assume that Eule started in the same square as Uhm. But it that case he would provoke an AoO when he left. What's not so clear is that, absent written tactics, it is reasonable to assume he was in exactly the optimal square 10 ft' away. (If Kwerrock moves first and casts Shield second, the whole mess doesn't happen.) I don't see why Cellardweller would give Cat the benefit of the doubt on that, since he didn't first give Kwerrock the benefit of the doubt on reversing the order of his move and spellcast in Round 1.
Caterane 02-27-05, 07:10 PM	O O O O O O B B O O O O O O O O O O B B O O O O § O O O O @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O X X O O O O O O O O O O O X X O O O O O O O A O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O Now? Pfft, man Kwerrock is the luckiest guy in the world! He was at 0 hp, then 1 hp later, and 2 hp again at the end. Now he passes all saves and his light horse goes on a killing spree.
Sindorin 02-27-05, 08:19 PM	Running fights... I'm running Dorian vs. Zubair now. Should be up soon. Also, Exalted Angel is now my avatar. Just so no one confuses me with Zepher. Not that that's likely to happen... Not that she posts here often, but Exalted Angel is and has always been Nanaleigh's avatar...
Iced 02-27-05, 09:26 PM	Bring it, shorty! :D Hit Points: 16 [3d6+3 HD] AC 19 [+2dex, +5armor, +2shield], Touch 15, Flat 17 Initiative: +2 [2dex] BAB/Grap: +2/+4 [+2bab, +4str] Speed 20 [base 30, Medium Armor] I got something around +18 on my trip when buffed, and improved trip. And even IF it doesn't work and I don't manage to trip and destroy, then it is 2 regular attacks to kill you. You're PASTE!!!! lol I'm going to smush you!!! I got over 2x your HP, that's all I got left to say...;) Eat it pyro!
spasheridan 02-27-05, 09:40 PM	@Snarkhunter & Cat: About the mer-man fight. When fighting, a creature chooses between primary nat attacks and held weapons. So it's either a trident & a bite or it's 2 claws and a bite, you can't do a trident, claw, and bite. Full Attack: Trident +4 melee (1d8+3) and bite +2 melee (1d4+1); or 2 talons +4 melee (1d4+2) and bite +2 melee (1d4+1); or heavy crossbow +3 ranged (1d10/19–20) Not sure if this illustrates my pt or not, but that's the saughin attack routine from the SRD. I don't think this would change the fight, but it would drag it on a few more rnds.
One_Winged_Angel 02-27-05, 11:34 PM	Hit Points: 16 [3d6+3 HD] AC 19 [+2dex, +5armor, +2shield], Touch 15, Flat 17 Initiative: +2 [2dex] BAB/Grap: +2/+4 [+2bab, +4str] Speed 20 [base 30, Medium Armor] I got something around +18 on my trip when buffed, and improved trip. And even IF it doesn't work and I don't manage to trip and destroy, then it is 2 regular attacks to kill you. You're PASTE!!!! lol I'm going to smush you!!! I got over 2x your HP, that's all I got left to say...;) Eat it pyro! Lalalalala. You need to watch FMA, my friend. Roy has a few nasty habits. Some of which include stealing his subordinate's girlfriends, acting arrogant on numerous occasions, looking weak when he is not, and calling people short. ;) BTW, have you by chance looked at the rest of my character sheet. It would be a good idea. Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd... Dorian vs. Zubair (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5549627&postcount=1327) is up. Sorry for the lack of story, but nothing really struck me and I'm running low on ideas :(
Dalton Onestone 02-27-05, 11:56 PM	O O O O O O B B O O O O O O O O O O B B O O O O § O O O O @ O O O O O O O O O O O O O X X O O O O O O O O O O O X X O O O O O O O A O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O Now? Pfft, man Kwerrock is the luckiest guy in the world! He was at 0 hp, then 1 hp later, and 2 hp again at the end. Now he passes all saves and his light horse goes on a killing spree. I think you finally nailed it; that map does look like a clean path to me. Fortunately (whew!), we long ago established that it's beside the point, since that part of the fight never happened. As for Kwerrock's luck -- that's a big part of what he was designed for! He has a luck reroll and high saves and a Cloak of Resistance and a cleric's healing ability and high HP and feats that are mainly relevant to defense -- and as you yourself have pointed out a couple of times recently, he buffs quite a lot too, when he gets a chance, which you wisely did your best not to give him. In fact, if you hadn't come up with a great tactic for that fight -- taking advantage of the fact that people tend to write a definite order to buff-vs.-move -- Uhm's odds of success would have been pretty low. And, by the way, the fight isn't over yet. Uhm. might yet win. (Boohoo if that happens!) I'm new to this game, so I listened to everybody else who said clerics are overpowered and dwarves are overpowered and, guess what -- a dwarf cleric is looking pretty good right now. ;)
cellardweller 02-28-05, 12:27 AM	Btw Dalton, I didn't have Kwerrock move before casting shield in the first round because I had him assume that the readied action was for web (based on your tactics).
Dalton Onestone 02-28-05, 12:44 AM	Btw Dalton, I didn't have Kwerrock move before casting shield in the first round because I had him assume that the readied action was for web (based on your tactics). Two problems with that theory (but thanks anyway for the clear reasoning!). 1. Moving first and casting Shield second wouldn't have hurt anything had Web indeed been readied. The whole point of the specific moves I gave was that they wouldn't bring him to a place where Web could be successfully cast, yet allowed him to get visibility as to where Uhm. and his team were. I foolishly didn't write tactics specifically for Uhm. himself showing up, but in any case Web is totally irrelevant to the question of move-first vs. cast-Shield-first. 2. He didn't know for sure that anything had been readied. (A negative results on a Listen check at a range of 200 feet with lots of major rocks inbetween is not a lot of negative evidence as to whether Uhm. had cast a first round spell.)
Snommelp 02-28-05, 12:52 AM	Running Flower vs. Aeluath right now. These both look like such exciting characters, and yet the combat has been dull so far. Round 6 and not so much as an attack made! ...except that I forgot that Flower has a medium load and her speed's only 20 because of that. I just reset it to the end of round 4. Fun stuff. I may have to finish this tomorrow, between my last class and my concert. EDIT: Round 8 and finally some news worth sharing. Thorn is down and both Aeluath and Kethyr have taken hits. However, seeing as it is now midnight here in Arizona and I have a morning class tomorrow, do not expect the complete fight to be up soon.
OdinTheReaper 02-28-05, 03:29 AM	Lalalalala. You need to watch FMA, my friend. Roy has a few nasty habits. Some of which include stealing his subordinate's girlfriends, acting arrogant on numerous occasions, looking weak when he is not, and calling people short. ;) BTW, have you by chance looked at the rest of my character sheet. It would be a good idea. Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd... Dorian vs. Zubair (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5549627&postcount=1327) is up. Sorry for the lack of story, but nothing really struck me and I'm running low on ideas :( Exactly...FMA great show...If he loves Roy he will love Vyncent too..lol...
Dalton Onestone 02-28-05, 03:47 AM	Interesting. I think from the tactics as I wrote them you should go with whichever of Mirror Image or a grapple attempt makes the most sense to you, unless you think some third course of action is clearly better. I'm content to leave it at that. Looking at the HP and the positions, a lance charge may well be better than a grapple. Equal chance of hitting on a charge vs. a melee touch attack, and better chance of winning conditional on a hit. 2d8 + 8 vs. 11 HP is an instant knockout except on a natural 1. Although I guess weird rules on mounted grapples could conceivably change the calculation: If a successful grapple doesn't let Uhm's horse immediately attack Kwerrock, it's a whole different matter ... although you probably have to redo the fight as if you didn't already known that Horsey does 17 damage against Uhm. on the first full attack. And this all assumes you're unconvinced by my argument above that Kwerrock would indeed have steered clear of the Shieldus Interruptus, strictly as a precautionary measure. Anyhow, the tactics as written are in your hands.
Caterane 02-28-05, 03:55 AM	Re: move+shield vs shield+move That was a risk I took and it payed off. I pondered some time about doing this ready action because it involved a risk but when I read Dalton's tactic I knew that he hadn't countered that. Besides, Dalton's tactic's are very clear on what to do on Round 1 (or any round for that matter): Round 1: Cast Shield from scroll. Move six squares sideways (but see note below about avoiding Web, which trumps any specific movement requests) – away from Eule if he is visible, otherwise in a random choice of direction. Another thing, Cellar. I noticed that you didn't ready on my second turn but I clearly wrote that in my tactics: Ride forward into LOS (spur mount, move action) and ready MM9 on his spellcasting, followed by a second MM9, and a memorized one without ready action That means he wouldn't be able to cast Cure moderate wounds but he would've tried shield or owls or whatever which would have been interrupted if he doesn't pass a concentration save Dc28+spell level. Ini resets, and I cast my memorized MM without ready action thus finishing him off.
Dalton Onestone 02-28-05, 04:11 AM	Cat's comments overlook the Golden Rule I put in my tactics -- if they don't make sense, please overrule them. Saying that I explicitly ordered up a spellcast with the opponent in LOS is a bit of a stretch, given the tactics I wrote. I totally don't understand how Cat's new scenario makes any difference between Cure Moderate and the buffs in my tactics, so I'll let that pass. What I really don't understand is how Uhm. would KNOW that the Shield spell had failed. There's a DC listed for a Spellcraft roll to identify a spell that's in effect (20 + level), but that's not exactly the same thing. I see how he would know what spell Kwerrock was trying to cast, but I don't know how he's know for sure that it failed, and Cat's tactics said he had to be sure. In fact, there's an error the other way -- the memorized version of the spell was supposed to have its missiles split between Kwerrock and Horsey, not both thrown at Horsey, as per Cat's tactics.
Caterane 02-28-05, 04:34 AM	Kwerrock: "OBI-DAI VINTUUURAAA WAN...OUCH! OUCH OUCH! OUCH! OUCH!" Uhme: "Look Eule, I guess that spell failed" Writing a golden rule ("Please adapt") doesn't let the pitlord take over your character and choose the best-suited counter with his pitlord knowledge, especially not since you hadn't mentiontioned a single word in your long tactic what you wanted to do in case I interrupt spellcasting with magic missiles. The scenario makes a huge difference because it would go like that: Round 1: Uhme readies, Kwerrock casts shield, Ready action: 17 damage, spell failed, Kwerrock 18/35 hp Round 2: Uhme readies, Kwerrock casts shield, Ready action: 18 damage, spell failed, Kwerrock 0/35 hp Round 3: Uhme cast MM normally, 10 damage, Kwerrock -10/35 hp
Einzelgaenger 02-28-05, 05:03 AM	Grakk Mightyfist (Aramil Dunskar) vs The Buddha (SnarkHunter) is up
Dalton Onestone 02-28-05, 05:17 AM	Kwerrock: "OBI-DAI VINTUUURAAA WAN...OUCH! OUCH OUCH! OUCH! OUCH!" Uhme: "Look Eule, I guess that spell failed" Had you written "If I have good reason to think he doesn't have Shield active ...." that would be good logic. Unfortunately for you, you instead wrote "If I am not sure wether he has cast shield, test it with a memorized MM first (one mm globe on him, other one on the horse)." While Uhm. knew the first MM caused a lot of damage and gave Kwerrock a tough DC to get Shield up, he didn't know that Kwerrock actually failed the Concentration check. In fact, I'm not sure how in the rules he COULD know. So I think you made an unfortunate error in your otherwise very clever tactics. Live by the picky wording of tactics, die by the picky wording of tactics.
Caterane 02-28-05, 05:37 AM	No. If you fail your concentration check the other one will know. We did it that way since the beginning and I am sure every DM does it the same way. One thing though: Live by the picky wording of tactics, die by the picky wording of tactics. Just a few posts above you wanted Cellar to ready an action to move away on my MM despite your tactic saying something completely different, and now you write such a statement. Just a few posts above you wanted the pitlord to adapt using his pitlord knowledge, and now this. Besides, you begin to clutch at straws (pitlord adaption, spell failure not obvious). Dalton, you can't just interprete things so that they fit. I want to discuss the fight with you and Cellar here but if that is the way this discussion goes, I will surrender the fight to you.
Pittbull 02-28-05, 06:24 AM	Here are the two fights I pitlorded this week: Elder vs. Lissa (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5550845&postcount=1329) Gabriel vs. Emad (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5550880&postcount=1330)
SnarkHunter 02-28-05, 06:32 AM	Grakk Mightyfist (Aramil Dunskar) vs The Buddha (SnarkHunter) is up :eek: :mymy: :thinks: Well...the Buddha must accept all that the universe puts in his path, and all the better to do so with the knowledge that the universe posses a warped sense of humor. ;)
Dalton Onestone 02-28-05, 06:34 AM	Just a few posts above you wanted Cellar to ready an action to move away on my MM despite your tactic saying something completely different, and now you write such a statement. Just a few posts above you wanted the pitlord to adapt using his pitlord knowledge, and now this. Exactly. I accepted your correction to my prior point. If things are done superliterally around here, so be it; you obviously know much better than I. The only thing I don't accept is the premise that my tactics should be interpreted literally, even though they obviously weren't meant to be used in the case that actually occurred, whereas yours should be slightly modified from their own errors until they make sense. Now, if you can establish to Cellardweller's satisfaction that your tactics were indeed error-free, that will be a different matter. As another example, your current contention seems to be that your second MM9 should have been readied just like the first one. Well, your tactics didn't actually say it should be; in fact, grammatically they can be read to say just the opposite more easily than they can be read to say what we now know you meant. I understand completely your argument why my tactics as written should have been ignored (specifically the part about pitlord adaption), but I haven't yet understood why your tactics as written should be ignored too.
Dalton Onestone 02-28-05, 06:35 AM	Dalton, you can't just interprete things so that they fit. I want to discuss the fight with you and Cellar here but if that is the way this discussion goes, I will surrender the fight to you. I've done nothing to deserve that being said to me. Indeed, I feel that you're the one who lost a fight fair and square and can't accept the fact. I could be wrong; your command of the rules far exceeds mine. But I've conceded a number of your points, even when other people didn't (e.g., the geometry one), and so far they still haven't added up to a reversal of the outcome.
Dalton Onestone 02-28-05, 06:37 AM	On a lighter note, Cat -- you actually wrote in your tactics that Prestidigitation should be used to start a fire. Huh??? And please help me out -- what did you mean by "Cast a 0th level spell to suck up Silence?"
Dalton Onestone 02-28-05, 06:56 AM	And yet one more thing -- if the sequence really had been: Round 1: Uhme readies behind the obstacle, Kwerrock tries to cast, MISSILEATTACK Round 2: Uhme readies again within Kwerrock's LOS, Kwerrock doesn't notice that he readied, and continues with the tactics he originally planned, MISSILEATTACK I wouldn't be a very happy camper, unless it turned out that it really wasn't possible for Kwerrock to run away, counterready, whatever. Insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a different result, and this situation would have been so obvious that not engaging in a little pitlord adaptation would be simply meanspirited. But I think that's a moot point, since your tactics didn't clearly say to ready the second MM9. Why are we arguing so much about this match anyway?
cellardweller 02-28-05, 07:08 AM	My games been canceled (when will people understand that the correct order of priorities is D&D then start trek then computer games and then girls?) so I am re-running the fight now. Regarding Readied MM - your instructions were ambiguous and I read it as "Ride forward into LOS (spur mount, move action) and [ready MM9 on his spellcasting], [followed by a second MM9, and a memorized one without ready action]." As this has equal tactical validity (only 1hp away from winning Uhme the battle) I am leaving this in place. It should be noted for the record that if Uhme had readied the action, I would have had Kwerrock guess that a second MM barrage was on the way and move to cover (he's not dumb). Regarding silence - he means that if Kwerrock were readying silence to counter spellcasting, he would waste it on a L0 spell - Kwerrock isn't readying so it doesn't matter. I am picking up the fight from point where Kwerrock made his re-rolled save with no changes before that point. I'll work with the graphical version of the map so that there won't be any further confusion about positions.
Aramil Dunskar 02-28-05, 09:12 AM	Grakk Mightyfist (Aramil Dunskar) vs The Buddha (SnarkHunter) is up Good job on the fight, and I love the ending :D
cellardweller 02-28-05, 09:21 AM	Done. Someone else can do the next Cat vs Dalton fight. Edit: That sounded more sour than I had intended it. You guy have every right to want you gladiators handled properly, and I don't mind doing my best to accomodate. The comment was meant tongue in cheek.
Huan 02-28-05, 10:39 AM	Bare-bones of Borrix vs Roy Mustang (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5551775) is up. Short version: Dancing around cover = good. Getting close with low AC and no healing = not so good. NOTE: I snagged the palindromic 1331 Fights post ... but who will grasp the prestigious 1337 post? ;)
T'Var 02-28-05, 10:40 AM	Bare-bones of Borrix vs Roy Mustang (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5551775) is up. Short version: Dancing around cover = good. Getting close with low AC and no healing = not so good. NOTE: I snagged the palindromic 1331 Fights post ... but who will grasp the prestigious 1337 post? ;) Round 5 [Borrix rages, moves to negate cover, and attacks Roy, Attack 17 vs AC 14, (hit: 15 dmg), and trips, Borrix 22 vs Roy 13, succeed.] Roy: 26/16; (-20, -19); 3 pp left, tripped Borrix: 21/37; (-20,-20); Invisibility breaks Round 6 [Roy adjusts while prone, and fires a 2 pp Wild Surged (safe) (does not provoke and AoO due to cover) at Borrix, Attack 21 vs AC 9, (hit: 26 dmg), Borrix falls, does not stabilize.] Roy: 26/16; (-19, -18); 1 pp left Borrix: -5/37; (-20-20); in round 5 Borrix moved to negate cover and tripped Roy. how did roy regain cover in round 6? any movement would prevoke as would the manifesting
Pittbull 02-28-05, 10:43 AM	Round 5 [Borrix rages, moves to negate cover, and attacks Roy, Attack 17 vs AC 14, (hit: 15 dmg), and trips, Borrix 22 vs Roy 13, succeed.] Roy: 26/16; (-20, -19); 3 pp left, tripped Borrix: 21/37; (-20,-20); Invisibility breaks Round 6 [Roy adjusts while prone, and fires a 2 pp Wild Surged (safe) (does not provoke and AoO due to cover) at Borrix, Attack 21 vs AC 9, (hit: 26 dmg), Borrix falls, does not stabilize.] Roy: 26/16; (-19, -18); 1 pp left Borrix: -5/37; (-20-20); in round 5 Borrix moved to negate cover and tripped Roy. how did roy regain cover in round 6? any movement would prevoke as would the manifesting An additional concentration-check would solve this problem. :)
T'Var 02-28-05, 10:46 AM	An additional concentration-check would solve this problem. :) just pointing out an oddity not sugjesting a course of action
Huan 02-28-05, 10:48 AM	Round 5: oooooo oBBooo oBBooo oR@ooo oooooo This was the end of Round 5, where Borrix moved around the cover, negated it, and tripped Roy. Round 6: oooooo oBBooo oBBooo oo@ooo ooRooo Roy adjusted 5 feet around the edge of the rock, gaining cover back. If this is wrong, Roy would have known and would have manifested defensively instead.
T'Var 02-28-05, 10:51 AM	Round 5: Roy adjusted 5 feet around the edge of the rock, gaining cover back. If this is wrong, Roy would have known and would have manifested defensively instead. while prone any movement provokes an AoO
Huan 02-28-05, 10:55 AM	while prone any movement provokes an AoO Even the 5-ft adjustment? Where does it say that? :confused:
T'Var 02-28-05, 11:04 AM	Even the 5-ft adjustment? Where does it say that? :confused: movement in combat Crawling: You can crawl 5 feet as a move action. Crawling incurs attacks of opportunity from any attackers who threaten you at any point of your crawl.
Iced 02-28-05, 11:07 AM	Ummm, I get an AoO for the manifest and I get extra HP because of the rage (that would put me to 1hp), and then I get default attack, so I should have had a chance of killing Roy before he could finish me! Rage grants me the extra hp to survive...:p
Huan 02-28-05, 11:19 AM	Ummm, I get an AoO for the manifest and I get extra HP because of the rage (that would put me to 1hp), and then I get default attack, so I should have had a chance of killing Roy before he could finish me! Rage grants me the extra hp to survive...:p @Iced You did get the 6 HP when you raged, note how your HP at the end of Round 5 changed. First you took 22 dmg, lowering you to 15 hp, then you regained 6 with rage, bringing it to 21. @T'Var Thanks for finding that, I never knew that was there. But, as I said before, Roy would have manifested defensively knowing he could not crawl away easily. EDIT: Fixed the fight, Roy auto-suceeded in his concentration by expending his focus.
Iced 02-28-05, 11:37 AM	Would I still have gotten an AoO though? Movement while prone and manifesting both are AoO right, and he'd have to suceed at a concentration check of 10 + damage dealt(i think, i'll look it up) to manifest at all.
T'Var 02-28-05, 11:46 AM	Would I still have gotten an AoO though? Movement while prone and manifesting both are AoO right, and he'd have to suceed at a concentration check of 10 + damage dealt(i think, i'll look it up) to manifest at all. what happened, is he didnt move, and used his Psionic Focus to auto succeed his Combat Manifestation or manifesting without display, which negates an AoO
Huan 02-28-05, 11:46 AM	Would I still have gotten an AoO though? Movement while prone and manifesting both are AoO right, and he'd have to suceed at a concentration check of 10 + damage dealt(i think, i'll look it up) to manifest at all. No, manifesting defensively prevents an AoO. Close, formula is 10 + dmg dealt + lvl of spell.
Kaigan 02-28-05, 12:47 PM	Both my fights are up: Evram vs. Inihe and Fyhir vs. Zeem. Please look over them thanks.
spasheridan 02-28-05, 01:15 PM	@Kaigan Fyhir needs to make concentration checks (dc 10) to manifest a power while riding his horse. That's not a defensive casting check so my concentration score is only 8, so on a 1 it fails. Not a biggy, unless I roll all 1's!
Jindl 02-28-05, 01:26 PM	@Kaigan Fyhir needs to make concentration checks (dc 10) to manifest a power while riding his horse. That's not a defensive casting check so my concentration score is only 8, so on a 1 it fails. Not a biggy, unless I roll all 1's! DC = 10 + power level.
spasheridan 02-28-05, 01:31 PM	@ Cellardweller: New fght results... 1) K used a scroll of owls wisdom even though he had no more spells that he could cast that require a save?? 2) K cast silence on what for why?? Tks!
Caterane 02-28-05, 01:46 PM	@Cellardweller: I should probably just keep my mouth and accept the win but I want to be fair to Dalton. I don't have a third CL 9 Magic missile scroll. You must've slipped in the line or used my already updated sheet. That's 18 damage less for Kwerrock. On the other hand there are also some things that are in my favor. First of all, I am not stinking when I alter self into a troglodyte. I just get the natural armor, which is +6 and brings me to AC 26, not 24 as you wrote. In round 14 my horse actually hit twice but you wrote "failed". The 1st attack is a natural 1 but the second attack should be made at +6 (not +4; heavy warhorse) for 1d6+4 damage. The Bite also hits Ac12 for another 1d4+1 damage. In round 15, my horse should attack Kwerrock because now he is not down which - according to the rolls - results in another 12 damage for Kwerrock. That and the magic missile (7 pts) sums up to 19 damage plus 1d6+4 and 1d4+1 from my horse is enough to down Kwerrock (who had 22 hp). It would also be better to deliver a shocking grasp on the helpless Kwerrock (+5 vs Ac5) instead of using the pearl. I also get only 1200 XP/Gold, not 1400. @Spash: Owls vs will save spells like sleep. Silence to mute Uhme -> no spellcasting but Uhmentarymster saved on that.
spasheridan 02-28-05, 02:15 PM	ahh.. thanks!
Kaigan 02-28-05, 02:16 PM	@Kaigan Fyhir needs to make concentration checks (dc 10) to manifest a power while riding his horse. That's not a defensive casting check so my concentration score is only 8, so on a 1 it fails. Not a biggy, unless I roll all 1's! I don't think so, I had Fyhir only single move on the mount.
T'Var 02-28-05, 02:22 PM	@Kaigan Fyhir needs to make concentration checks (dc 10) to manifest a power while riding his horse. That's not a defensive casting check so my concentration score is only 8, so on a 1 it fails. Not a biggy, unless I roll all 1's!I don't think so, I had Fyhir only single move on the mount. thats correct single movement on a horse doesnt not need a concentrate check double move is dc10 and running is the higher
Dalton Onestone 02-28-05, 08:13 PM	Cellardweller, Thank you for rerunning the fight, but I still have a few questions or disagreements: 1. My tactics explicitly said to cast Mirror Image as a high priority. (Mirror Image is a huge part of Kwerrock's tactics.) Had you done that, the images would surely have absorbed some of the magic missiles. 2. I have a lot of movement questions, since I have trouble reading the exact coordinates of the moves: If you ever decided it was completely impossible for Kwerrock to catch Uhme, do you think you'd ever have Kwerrock kill his horse instead (e.g., with the Wand of Magic Missiles)? Or maybe shoot True Strike arrows at Uhme? And why is it that with Uhme on the slower horse, Kwerrock can never cut him off and close the gap? Did you pass up opportunities for Kwerrock to spur and get into combat before the Shield spell ran out? And are you sure you didn't overlook any lance charge opportunties for Kwerrock when he was chasing Uhme? From the map it appears that you might have. 4. DELETED 5. Just curious, since grapple probably wasn't the best tactic anyway: Do you really think that it is necessary to dismount before trying a mounted grapple? 6. On the horse attack that presumably took Kwerrock to 0 HP in Round 14, it looks like you rolled three failed attacks and then rolled damage. 7. Even if a charge wasn't possible, the lance has some advantages over the greataxe. It could produce one AoO (I hope on Uhme!) when Uhme's horse moves in to full attack, and another possibly disrupting one when he casts the MM spell, 5 ft. step or no. (Either from Kwerrock or Horsey, depending on where if anywhere he steps to cast it.) 8. Kwerrock should be charged for two used scrolls of Shield [1]. (I meant for Kwerrock to carry all his scroll spells on separate scrolls. Sorry for the confusion.) 9. As Cat already has said, he didn't really have as many MMs available to cast at Kwerrock as you used for him.
cellardweller 02-28-05, 08:14 PM	@Cellardweller: I should probably just keep my mouth and accept the win but I want to be fair to Dalton. I don't have a third CL 9 Magic missile scroll. You must've slipped in the line or used my already updated sheet. That's 18 damage less for Kwerrock. Aww crud on a stick! Yeah, I didn't notice that you had updated your sheet already and saw the scroll with 3MM's on it. That'll change the fight some - take 3 when I get back from work tonight.
cellardweller 02-28-05, 08:28 PM	It wasn't impossible. He would have caught him in round 14 if the pattern had kept up. There was no spurring of mounts (my head only has so much room), ditto with MI, I'll take it under advisement for KvU 3.0. Without the third mm scroll, Uhme will be using his tatoo of skate, so everything else is going to be radically different.
Jindl 02-28-05, 09:02 PM	It wasn't impossible. He would have caught him in round 14 if the pattern had kept up. There was no spurring of mounts (my head only has so much room), ditto with MI, I'll take it under advisement for KvU 3.0. Without the third mm scroll, Uhme will be using his tatoo of skate, so everything else is going to be radically different. Cellar - Not to cloud things up further, but many of the actions both combatants were performing require ride checks. I'm pretty sure Uhme doesn't have much in the way of the Ride skill, not sure about Kwerrock.
Dalton Onestone 02-28-05, 09:11 PM	Cellar - Not to cloud things up further, but many of the actions both combatants were performing require ride checks. I'm pretty sure Uhme doesn't have much in the way of the Ride skill, not sure about Kwerrock. +2 for Uhme, +6 for Kwerrock. So Uhme actually doesn't even automake "Guide with knees". EDIT: OK. I looked up Alter Self. Those Stench attacks didn't actually happen, although it doesn't matter since everybody passed their saves. My tactics didn't really account for him adding +6 to AC, but I think that falls under "Well, please figure out the best way to attack him and use your judgement," some people's reservations about more extreme forms of pitlord adaptation notwithstanding.
Dalton Onestone 02-28-05, 10:02 PM	It wasn't impossible. He would have caught him in round 14 if the pattern had kept up. There was no spurring of mounts (my head only has so much room), ditto with MI, I'll take it under advisement for KvU 3.0. Without the third mm scroll, Uhme will be using his tatoo of skate, so everything else is going to be radically different. Well, we both have magic missiles for horse killing. At least, my gladiator does. And lots of True Strikes, although only one of us has Deflect Arrows. And we have our 0-level spells. And he has his Shocking Grasps. And I have my Summon. So there should be plenty to keep you entertained ... And I don't know which side would do better to wait until everybody's buffs have worn off.
vipergtsmk 02-28-05, 10:39 PM	My fight (Derth) has not yet been posted. It's just about time for me to get some sleep so I may not be able to get the character sheet edited in time. IMO I should probably get a couple hours extension as I won't get home tommorow until after the deadline. ***If It is in fact posted please inform me! Quickly!***
Dalton Onestone 02-28-05, 10:44 PM	My fight (Derth) has not yet been posted. It's just about time for me to get some sleep so I may not be able to get the character sheet edited in time. IMO I should probably get a couple hours extension as I won't get home tommorow until after the deadline. ***If It is in fact posted please inform me! Quickly!*** I do believe the standard deadline for editing sheets is Wednesday, 2 pm or so EST.
vipergtsmk 02-28-05, 10:48 PM	Thats what I was saying I won't get home until at after 4 at best!
SnarkHunter 02-28-05, 10:53 PM	To my players: sorry I planned on running the fight this afternoon when I had a free minute but the boards were (of course) inaccessable. I'm still planning on running them but it looks like the earliest that could happen is now...Tuesday night. Sorry guys. On an unrelated note, I'm going to be on at least a 2 week hiatus from the boards while I furiously study the science. Damn dirty science.
Snommelp 02-28-05, 10:58 PM	Oi, what a day! I just got back from my concert, and I'll finish Flower vs. What's-His-Name now.
Ayatoshi 02-28-05, 10:59 PM	My fights should be up either tomorrow afternoon or tomorrow late at night sorry
Naerdaloth 02-28-05, 11:01 PM	My fight (Derth) has not yet been posted. It's just about time for me to get some sleep so I may not be able to get the character sheet edited in time. IMO I should probably get a couple hours extension as I won't get home tommorow until after the deadline. ***If It is in fact posted please inform me! Quickly!*** Yes, it has been posted. Secondlast on the fights thread, right now. I used TaggIIV account, sorry for any confusion
One_Winged_Angel 02-28-05, 11:04 PM	Rex vs. Tianis (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5555701&postcount=1335) is up. Raging barbarian. 60 hp of damage. Sniping.
Jindl 02-28-05, 11:22 PM	I do believe the standard deadline for editing sheets is Wednesday, 2 pm or so EST. It's Wed, 4 pm EST (or 9 PM GMT).
Dalton Onestone 02-28-05, 11:33 PM	Thats what I was saying I won't get home until at after 4 at best! Today is still Monday, and the deadline is on Wednesday.
Arstimis 02-28-05, 11:35 PM	Today is still Monday, and the deadline is on Wednesday.actually for those in the US (and Canada for viper) tomorrow is tuesday, but that still leaves a day
Dalton Onestone 02-28-05, 11:50 PM	@T'Var -- what's the ETA on the GrandElf fight, if you have one?
spasheridan 02-28-05, 11:56 PM	@ Owa, about your recent fight. WHy didn't Tianis drink the potions he started the battle with in his hands? That would have raised his AC by 6 to 22. Then, in round 2, when Rex charges, Tianis is behind cover, which would have raised his AC to 26. The crit would have missed....
Snommelp 03-01-05, 12:15 AM	Dandelion vs. What's-His-Name is up. Yet another fight where my predicted winner loses. T'Var, please fix your character sheet. You'll see what I mean when you read the fight.
spasheridan 03-01-05, 12:37 AM	@Snowmelp: About the fight- 1) Aeluath drinks a potion of Protection from Law in rnd 1. THis prevents any summoned creature (Jinni) from touching him 2) Why didn't Kethyr make a single attack in the match? 3) WHy didn't Aeluath make ref saves vs entangle? He's in the area and so a valid target. He can be immobilized while his mount is free... In any case, I doubt that 1 or 2 would make a differance, but 3 sure could...
Dalton Onestone 03-01-05, 12:41 AM	I just looked briefly at the Elder/Lissa fight, but it seemed to violate the rule that a touch spell dissipates if the wizard casts another in the interim, even if the familiar is holding the spell (see the section on familiars in the SRD/PHB). @Cat -- that reminds me. I found a number of apparent errors on Uhme's char sheet or in his tactics for prior fights, and mentioned them in Kwerrock's tactics, so if you haven't already skimmed those (and I bet you have) you should.
Snommelp 03-01-05, 12:46 AM	@Snowmelp: About the fight- 1) Aeluath drinks a potion of Protection from Law in rnd 1. THis prevents any summoned creature (Jinni) from touching him 2) Why didn't Kethyr make a single attack in the match? 3) WHy didn't Aeluath make ref saves vs entangle? He's in the area and so a valid target. He can be immobilized while his mount is free... In any case, I doubt that 1 or 2 would make a differance, but 3 sure could... 1) The Janni didn't touch him. The sword did. I double-checked the spell right when I summoned the Janni, and it works. 2) Kethyr didn't attack because I don't know what ruling we came to about lancers riding horses and attacking adjacent opponents, and because of that I decided that Aeluath would choose the lance over the horse attacking. 3) Good point. Guess I'll have to make the saves now...
Jindl 03-01-05, 12:47 AM	I just looked briefly at the Elder/Lissa fight, but it seemed to violate the rule that a touch spell dissipates if the wizard casts another in the interim, even if the familiar is holding the spell (see the section on familiars in the SRD/PHB). The Elder didn't cast another spell after the shocking grasp. He activated a psionic power, which means he used a spell-like ability. Its not the same thing.
Jindl 03-01-05, 12:48 AM	1) The Janni didn't touch him. The sword did. I double-checked the spell right when I summoned the Janni, and it works. He's right. Protection from <alignment> potions only work against natural attacks.
spasheridan 03-01-05, 12:50 AM	1) The Janni didn't touch him. The sword did. I double-checked the spell right when I summoned the Janni, and it works. I buy that. 2) Kethyr didn't attack because I don't know what ruling we came to about lancers riding horses and attacking adjacent opponents, and because of that I decided that Aeluath would choose the lance over the horse attacking. Yeah well... the mount can make a full attack and 5 foot back and THEN the rider can make a full attack as well. 3) Good point. Guess I'll have to make the saves now... SOrry!
Snommelp 03-01-05, 12:54 AM	SOrry! 'sawrigt. If it drastically changes the fight, though, I'ma gonna have to put up the fixed fight tomorrow, because it's almost 11 here and on Tuesdays I have an 8:00 class. Come to think of it, I don't know if I'll have time to fix it tomorrow... let's hope Aeluath makes those saves!
Einzelgaenger 03-01-05, 12:54 AM	Good job on the fight, and I love the ending :D yes, i do believe that shot qualified as "1337pwn493" to say it in celestial.
Snommelp 03-01-05, 12:56 AM	Well poop... first reflex save came up as 11. Looks like the fight's getting re-run from round 2! :weep:
Dalton Onestone 03-01-05, 01:02 AM	Dupe with the next note.
Dalton Onestone 03-01-05, 01:04 AM	The Elder didn't cast another spell after the shocking grasp. He activated a psionic power, which means he used a spell-like ability. Its not the same thing. It sure looks like he cast an MM CL 9 in Round 8 before the Shocking Grasp was delivered.
Jindl 03-01-05, 01:06 AM	Ah, true enough. I thought the energy stun was the only thing after casting shocking grasp. Well, it is reasonable to think that the Elder knows the limitations of his spells much better than I. Instead of wasting the shocking grasp by casting it before the scroll: magic missile, he would have just cast the shocking grasp on the round after manifesting energy stun and had Bubo deliver it immediately. Same outcome. Thanks for pointing that out though. I'll be sure to adjust my tactics accordingly in the future. *After 2 years here, I still learn something new every day.* Here's a cookie for ya!! :cookie:
Snommelp 03-01-05, 01:11 AM	Well poop... first reflex save came up as 11. Looks like the fight's getting re-run from round 2! :weep: I just eralized something... Heat Metal (the spell to be cast if the first Entangle Succeeds) has, for Flower, a range of 30! That means that Flower has to find a way into the Entangle spell in order to cast it. I've decided that this is what I'm going to do: if Aeluath gets away from the Entangles before Flower can cast heat metal, I'm assuming that the fight runs the same as before after that. Otherwise, I'll keep running it.
Dalton Onestone 03-01-05, 01:13 AM	Here's a cookie for ya!! :cookie: Coooookie! Coooooookie! Cooooookie!!
Jindl 03-01-05, 01:14 AM	I just eralized something... Heat Metal (the spell to be cast if the first Entangle Succeeds) has, for Flower, a range of 30! That means that Flower has to find a way into the Entangle spell in order to cast it. I've decided that this is what I'm going to do: if Aeluath gets away from the Entangles before Flower can cast heat metal, I'm assuming that the fight runs the same as before after that. Otherwise, I'll keep running it. I guess that depends on whether Flower centers the entangle upon Aeluath. If her strategy was to cast entangle then heat metal, it makes sense for her to center the entangle about 10-15 ft on the other side of her opponent, so that she can safely approach within 30 ft.
Snommelp 03-01-05, 01:18 AM	I guess that depends on whether Flower centers the entangle upon Aeluath. If her strategy was to cast entangle then heat metal, it makes sense for her to center the entangle about 10-15 ft on the other side of her opponent, so that she can safely approach within 30 ft. Fair... I guess I'll just assume that the Entangle is centered 15 feet further over than I drew it. That does it, I'm not running Flower anymore! T'Var, your character is making my brain hurt!
spasheridan 03-01-05, 01:25 AM	In other news, has anyone heard from Ayatoshi? He's running my other battle this week. Please don't say I have an extended match on my 1st and 2nd week in the CoCO. :weep:
Snommelp 03-01-05, 01:30 AM	Sorry, spash, haven't heard from him. I'm sure if his fight doesn't come through, someone else will volunteer to take it. In the continuing saga of Flower vs. Aeluath, A just made the strength check. If he doesn't get entangled again next turn, F's going to have to cast Entangle again. EDIT: it's a full round action to escape, but once he does, he and his horse can still move, right? If they can, he's out of the Entangle this turn.
spasheridan 03-01-05, 01:39 AM	Grasses, weeds, bushes, and even trees wrap, twist, and entwine about creatures in the area or those that enter the area, holding them fast and causing them to become entangled. The creature can break free and move half its normal speed by using a full-round action to make a DC 20 Strength check or a DC 20 Escape Artist check. A creature that succeeds on a Reflex save is not entangled but can still move at only half speed through the area. Each round on your turn, the plants once again attempt to entangle all creatures that have avoided or escaped entanglement. Rnd 2: F casts Entangle, A fails save A takes fll rnd action, get's 1/2 move- I would say that A get's to have his horse make a 1/2 speed move this round and that's it, but this is a judgement call Rnd 3: F's turn: A is still in the area of the spell, A & Horse need to make new reflex saves...
cellardweller 03-01-05, 01:41 AM	My fights should be up either tomorrow afternoon or tomorrow late at night sorry that was 2.5 hours ago
Snommelp 03-01-05, 01:42 AM	Thanks, that's what I needed to know. I'm guessing, then, that I can't have Kethyr move at half of a double-move, so they will indeed still be stuck.
Dalton Onestone 03-01-05, 01:42 AM	Don't both horse and rider need to save against the Entangle spell, every turn?
spasheridan 03-01-05, 01:58 AM	@ cellar - Thanks, I missed that! @ Dalton - yeah. Original fight Snow just had the horse make them, he passed. He's re-running because the rider failed his 1st entangle check... @ Snow - I had a druid fight this time as well. Entangle on rnd 1 pretty much was the whole fight.
Caterane 03-01-05, 04:11 AM	@Kaigan: Can you resize the map (the one without combatants on it) and post it on the Maps thread? Thanks. Just a small mistake in Jindl's Quest... [Sawtooth: Break Grapple: 15 vs. 16, fail Attack: 20 vs. AC: 15, hit. Damage: 13] Since his grapple failed, Sawtooth cannot roll for damage. In any case, there is no second attack. Breaking free is a standard action. Oh and... In a last ditch effort Jindl summoned all the power within him, and vanquished the Harverster and his minions. ...is historically not correct :D :D :D :P
T'Var 03-01-05, 01:28 PM	my fights will be up tonight, but unfortunatly i dont think i will make the deadline
T'Var 03-01-05, 01:35 PM	Well poop... first reflex save came up as 11. Looks like the fight's getting re-run from round 2! :weep: :)
Snommelp 03-01-05, 02:22 PM	Don't smile just yet, T'Var. I'm running it round-by-round betwee classes, and your fire spells aren't helping all that much. Not to mention that you are now out of spell levels. This next round will be the last one in which your fire spells do damage; if Aeluath (and Kethyr) escapes the Entangle with more HP than was taken from him in the original fight, he wins. Otherwise, the fight goes on... and on...
T'Var 03-01-05, 02:28 PM	Don't smile just yet, T'Var. I'm running it round-by-round betwee classes, and your fire spells aren't helping all that much. Not to mention that you are now out of spell levels. This next round will be the last one in which your fire spells do damage; if Aeluath (and Kethyr) escapes the Entangle with more HP than was taken from him in the original fight, he wins. Otherwise, the fight goes on... and on... really....a possable 8d6+3d6 +sword/bow dmg from the janni didnt do much dmg ill like to see that
OdinTheReaper 03-01-05, 03:47 PM	So editing should be finished by like 2:00pm Wednesday right? Im just making sure.
Snommelp 03-01-05, 04:21 PM	really....a possable 8d6+3d6 +sword/bow dmg from the janni didnt do much dmg ill like to see that You've already seen the Janni's damage; your fire spells have so far done about 6 damage (the flaming sphere was avoided the first round and rolled snake eyes the second). But where is this 8d6 coming from? Did I miss something else, as well?
TaggIIV 03-01-05, 04:23 PM	@mysticmonk: why did Zaq only move like 4 squares as the readied action? He's got a speed of 80', which unless he walked towards Rook would have put him out of range of the energy ray. but, since it was readied in response to him acting, the ray would still be spent, and its a hostile action so he would no longer be invisible.. and what happened next could very well have a drastic effect on the outcome of the match. i think im interpreting this right, at least
Jindl 03-01-05, 04:26 PM	So editing should be finished by like 2:00pm Wednesday right? Im just making sure. 4 pm Wed, EST.
Jindl 03-01-05, 04:27 PM	You've already seen the Janni's damage; your fire spells have so far done about 6 damage (the flaming sphere was avoided the first round and rolled snake eyes the second). But where is this 8d6 coming from? Did I miss something else, as well? The 8d6 was the flaming sphere x 4 rounds. What is the 3d6?
Snommelp 03-01-05, 04:29 PM	The 8d6 was the flaming sphere x 4 rounds. What is the 3d6? Four rounds? Shouldn't it be three? 1 round per... wait, ECL 4, right. I don't know what the 3d6 is, either. Best I can figure is it's either supposed to be Heat Metal (which would be 4d4 to Aeluath and 4 to the horse) or the bites of Thorn and Bramble. Wait... maybe the 3d6 was from Produce Flame (his alternate strategy for if he had to cast Entangle twice).
T'Var 03-01-05, 04:40 PM	dont look here, look down below
T'Var 03-01-05, 04:41 PM	Four rounds? Shouldn't it be three? 1 round per... wait, ECL 4, right. I don't know what the 3d6 is, either. should be 4d6+16 produce flames 4 1d6+4 touch attacks also about that janni i looked over it and saw that it attacked the gladiator and not his horse. all attacks were to be against the horse until it died since once the horse is dead his power is gone. that was the whole point to making the second entangle if the horse escaped also with the janni why did he charge? when he has 2 bow attacks that have just as good attack slightly less dmg but the only until the horse is dead
TaggIIV 03-01-05, 04:44 PM	edit: wait, actually Zaq didnt even move in response to the ray. why? he only used half of a single move action in the last round, thats plenty left to ready again.
Snommelp 03-01-05, 04:45 PM	should be 4d6+16 produce flames 4 1d6+4 touch attacks also about that janni i looked over it and saw that it attacked the gladiator and not his horse. all attacks were to be against the horse until it died since once the horse is dead his power is gone. that was the whole point to making the second entangle if the horse escaped also with the janni why did he charge? when he has 2 bow attacks that have just as good attack slightly less dmg but the only until the horse is dead The Janni attacked Aeluath because your tactics were a bit vague... although I should have realized you meant the horse. The Janni charged because of two things: he would have had to resheathe the sword, and I forgot about the bow. As for Produce Flames, that's not happening with this scenario. You told me Heat Metal Unless he escaped, so I did.
T'Var 03-01-05, 04:52 PM	The Janni attacked Aeluath because your tactics were a bit vague... although I should have realized you meant the horse. The Janni charged because of two things: he would have had to resheathe the sword, and I forgot about the bow. As for Produce Flames, that's not happening with this scenario. You told me Heat Metal Unless he escaped, so I did. no i said recast entangle if the HORSE escapes. and it wasnt captured first round as per your first draft of the fight. so entagle happened twice leaving me 3 spell levels. 2 for flaming sphere and 1 for produce flames. and the janni could have just as easily dropped his swords as a free action drawn bow and fired.
Snommelp 03-01-05, 05:01 PM	no i said recast entangle if the HORSE escapes. and it wasnt captured first round as per your first draft of the fight. so entagle happened twice leaving me 3 spell levels. 2 for flaming sphere and 1 for produce flames. and the janni could have just as easily dropped his swords as a free action drawn bow and fired. It seemed ridiculous to cast Entangle twice in the same area, especially since the horse wasn't going anywhere without its rider. The Janni could indeed drop the sword, but would have to float down to the ground again to pick it up. This isn't an important point, though, since I'm rerunning the entire fricking fight from round 2! Or did you miss that part? Aeluath has yet to escape the first (and currently only) Entangle, your dogs are about to tear into his horse, he's taken 9 damage (my mistake) from fire so far, and you're arguing with me about the Janni that hasn't technically appeared yet. I'm sorry, but I'm a bit stressed out right now. I've had four concerts in the past week with another coming up, I forgot a paper that was due today, and I think I'm getting sick. I'm on the edge, so forgive me if I take offense at things not meant to be offensive.
T'Var 03-01-05, 05:15 PM	It seemed ridiculous to cast Entangle twice in the same area, especially since the horse wasn't going anywhere without its rider. The Janni could indeed drop the sword, but would have to float down to the ground again to pick it up. This isn't an important point, though, since I'm rerunning the entire fricking fight from round 2! Or did you miss that part? Aeluath has yet to escape the first (and currently only) Entangle, your dogs are about to tear into his horse, he's taken 9 damage (my mistake) from fire so far, and you're arguing with me about the Janni that hasn't technically appeared yet. I'm sorry, but I'm a bit stressed out right now. I've had four concerts in the past week with another coming up, I forgot a paper that was due today, and I think I'm getting sick. I'm on the edge, so forgive me if I take offense at things not meant to be offensive. i do it to any fight i look over and find errors in. and i dont take offence ive been there man, just telling you what I see. and the points on the Janni are to correct the possablitys of future errors by looking at past events. and having two entangles means they have to make 2 saves a round, and then 2 strengh checks to get out of the area. so it does make sence to kill his power. though if you are intent on using the heat metal i would point out that Heat metal would also effect the horse(seperate save) since it has chain barding
Snommelp 03-01-05, 05:16 PM	Flower's chances are looking pretty good right now, BTW. Bramble just tripped the horse, and it's still Entangled. Which leads me to a question: where does Aeluath fall? In one of Kethyr's spaces, or an adjacent space?
Sindorin 03-01-05, 05:17 PM	Wow, from the looks of it we are going to have a slight pitlording shortage this week... Where the heck are all the fights?
Jindl 03-01-05, 05:18 PM	Flower's chances are looking pretty good right now, BTW. Bramble just tripped the horse, and it's still Entangled. Which leads me to a question: where does Aeluath fall? In one of Kethyr's spaces, or an adjacent space? Adjacent. And a wolf tripping a horse is pretty impressive (remember horses get bonuses on their trip checks for large size and having 4 legs).
Snommelp 03-01-05, 05:21 PM	Adjacent. And a wolf tripping a horse is pretty impressive (remember horses get bonuses on their trip checks for large size and having 4 legs). Yes, it was quite impressive. The horse rolled a 2, giving it a 14. The wolf got a total of 19. But right now I have to go back and edit in the Heat Metal Will saves that I forgot.
spasheridan 03-01-05, 05:37 PM	I blame the druids.... all their wacky spells! Making fights such a pain to pitlord!! I say.. DEATH to DRUIDS! Kill em!! And their little dogs to!
T'Var 03-01-05, 05:39 PM	I blame the druids.... all their wacky spells! Making fights such a pain to pitlord!! I say.. DEATH to DRUIDS! Kill em!! And their little dogs to! just you wait till i get my Flying Monkeys to attack
Sindorin 03-01-05, 05:42 PM	*casts create water*
Snommelp 03-01-05, 05:44 PM	I blame the druids.... all their wacky spells! Making fights such a pain to pitlord!! I say.. DEATH to DRUIDS! Kill em!! And their little dogs to! I tried! Then you came along and made me change everything! BTW, Kethyr's still Entangled and just got bitten badly while standing up. Just to make sure I'm still doing things right, the AoO made when Kethyr stands up can't be used to trip him again, can it? I don't want to have to rerun again.
T'Var 03-01-05, 05:45 PM	I tried! Then you came along and made me change everything! BTW, Kethyr's still Entangled and just got bitten badly while standing up. Just to make sure I'm still doing things right, the AoO made when Kethyr stands up can't be used to trip him again, can it? I don't want to have to rerun again. yes it can the trip is free for Any attack that is successful by wolfs and war trained dogs
spasheridan 03-01-05, 05:47 PM	1) No, the AoO occurs -before- the attempt to stand, ergo he is on his but while the attack happens. 2) Unless he has freed himself from the entangle(s) he can't stand up 3) Maybe the best bet is to attack from the ground with a melee weapon.
Snommelp 03-01-05, 05:47 PM	yes it can the trip is free for Any attack that is successful by wolfs and war trained dogs Right. I was getting confused with a normal person's trip attack which is different.
Snommelp 03-01-05, 05:48 PM	1) No, the AoO occurs -before- the attempt to stand, ergo he is on his but while the attack happens. 2) Unless he has freed himself from the entangle(s) he can't stand up 3) Maybe the best bet is to attack from the ground with a melee weapon.Now I'm confused again! But it's the horse that's been tripped, not Aeluath - A's on the oher side of the horse, not Entangled.
Jindl 03-01-05, 05:54 PM	1) No, the AoO occurs -before- the attempt to stand, ergo he is on his but while the attack happens. Correct. You cannot use a trip ability when making the AoO provoked by your opponent standing up. 2) Unless he has freed himself from the entangle(s) he can't stand up I haven't seen this anywhere in the rules. AFAIK, the horse can stand/sit/go prone while entangled. They just can't move from that square(s). 3) Maybe the best bet is to attack from the ground with a melee weapon. The horse could take a full attack while still prone, but it would suffer the standard penalties for being prone.
OdinTheReaper 03-01-05, 06:03 PM	Wow 0-2 this week. Not good. Also @Beldin: :ahem: I noticed at the top of the page it said (Evo3) which implied that Vyncent is an Evoker.....Not true he is infact a Transmuter...its a stupid complain i know.. :D
Snommelp 03-01-05, 06:53 PM	New problem: did we ever come to an agreement about mounted lancers attacking adjacent opponents? It wasn't important before because of the 5 foot step rule, but now the horse is stuck in place.
Dalton Onestone 03-01-05, 06:55 PM	New problem: did we ever come to an agreement about mounted lancers attacking adjacent opponents? It wasn't important before because of the 5 foot step rule, but now the horse is stuck in place. The majority said they couldn't do it. I never decided firmly whether I was in that majority personally.
Snommelp 03-01-05, 06:58 PM	I have class in 15 minutes... sorry, guys, but this ain't gettin' finished soon. I'll be back in about 4 1/2 hours to complete the fight.
spasheridan 03-01-05, 07:02 PM	IN the movies, when the mounted warriors fight hth, do they still wield a lance or do they whip out their trusty sword / mace / axe? Well, since the lance would most likely have splintered (in a hollywod splinter explosion), the hero would whip out the sword / mace / axe. Even if it didn't... the lance is really designed for charging. Melee is not the place of the lance, so I think the consensus.. not attacking within 5 ft w/the lance .. is correct. Cuz the movies tell me so! :D
Dalton Onestone 03-01-05, 08:15 PM	@T'Var: Thanks for running the fight! Unfortunately, GrandElf also needs to be charged for a scroll of Fox's Cunning. And I guess technically the minimonk used a couple of minibolts. EDIT: And if I may anticipate one possible problem. I didn't check the positions to see whether GrandElf, after casting the first Hideous Laughter, stopped close enough for Smommelp to drop his crossbow, run up, and start meleeing. According to my admittedly slightly vague tactics, he should not have stopped that close, because he had the psionic focus to expend to keep Concentration on a quick ride-by casting. So even if T'Var erred in not having Snommelp melee, that's moot because he also would have erred in making the positions such that Snommy had a chance to melee. Besides, with Mirror Image up, he in highest likelihood would have survived the first round of melee untouched, 5 ft stepped, and recast Hideous Laughter.
spasheridan 03-01-05, 09:50 PM	@ T'Var- Your fight between suggang & Rayos: Rayos sits mounted on his horse, drinks a potion of shield of faith and seeing his foe commands his wolf to attack but without the proper tricks the wolf stays near its master happily Having an animal perform a trick it's not trained to do is called "pushing" “Push” an Animal: To push an animal means to get it to perform a task or trick that it doesn’t know but is physically capable of performing. This category also covers making an animal perform a forced march or forcing it to hustle for more than 1 hour between sleep cycles. If the animal is wounded or has taken any nonlethal damage or ability score damage, the DC increases by 2. If your check succeeds, the animal performs the task or trick on its next action. It's a free action for a ranger to handle it's animal and the DC is 25. Also, the animal has 1 bonus trick (not listed) that it knows for free. Rangers get a +4 to handle their companions. Suggang rages then double moves forward again avoiding the wolf but doesn’t get a clear shot until after he is into the double move so cannot attack this round. Why can't suggang ready an action to attack when he's within melee distance?
One_Winged_Angel 03-01-05, 09:53 PM	@ Owa, about your recent fight. WHy didn't Tianis drink the potions he started the battle with in his hands? That would have raised his AC by 6 to 22. Then, in round 2, when Rex charges, Tianis is behind cover, which would have raised his AC to 26. The crit would have missed.... Not exactly. First off, in order to shoot, he needs LOS, meaning he would have had to come out of cover to do it. He has "concealment" due to the shadows, so he can hide again. So, minus the cover (he couldn't have charged cover anyway...), AC goes to 22. Looking at it, he is still very, very hit. I just saved Kaigan some gp by my mistake looking at his tactics.
spasheridan 03-01-05, 10:00 PM	Not exactly. First off, in order to shoot, he needs LOS, meaning he would have had to come out of cover to do it. He has "concealment" due to the shadows, so he can hide again. So, minus the cover (he couldn't have charged cover anyway...), AC goes to 22. Looking at it, he is still very, very hit. I just saved Kaigan some gp by my mistake looking at his tactics. There are no shadows in the arena, if you are hiding you have cover. Tianis: 25/25 (-15,3) Hiding Rex: 35/35 (0,9) Spotting Dang, but I love non-caster fights THe position Tianis is in at the end of rnd 1 is next to a 5 ft tall rock. Um.... that adds up to AC 26 if you followed his tactics.
One_Winged_Angel 03-01-05, 10:16 PM	There are no shadows in the arena, if you are hiding you have cover. THe position Tianis is in at the end of rnd 1 is next to a 5 ft tall rock. Um.... that adds up to AC 26 if you followed his tactics. The fact remains that if this is how I run it, I simply shift the attack roll to when Tianis does come out of cover (He can't shoot through a rock) and he still dies. That being the case, we just wait 'til Tianis wastes his potions. I talked with Kaigan, and he agreed that there was not really so much a matter of potions as a matter of time. Even if that had happened, potion of invis, go to x bow range, shoot, charge, same end result. Kaigan purposely didn't complain cuz he wanted to save some GP.
MysticMonk2005 03-01-05, 10:21 PM	@mysticmonk: why did Zaq only move like 4 squares as the readied action? He's got a speed of 80', which unless he walked towards Rook would have put him out of range of the energy ray. but, since it was readied in response to him acting, the ray would still be spent, and its a hostile action so he would no longer be invisible.. and what happened next could very well have a drastic effect on the outcome of the match. i think im interpreting this right, at least I simply had him move away from where he was, to a spot where he could hopefuly see the newly appeared Rook(who was still invis.) My problem is, I treated his readied action as his turn. I'll go back and fix it... this could be a while......
One_Winged_Angel 03-01-05, 10:26 PM	I simply had him move away from where he was, to a spot where he could hopefuly see the newly appeared Rook(who was still invis.) Since Rook attacked the next turn, Zaq didn't have a turn in which he could ready. Use the head man. Zaq doesn't simply lose a turn. He had time to ready between casting somehow or another.
spasheridan 03-01-05, 10:30 PM	The fact remains that if this is how I run it, I simply shift the attack roll to when Tianis does come out of cover (He can't shoot through a rock) and he still dies. That being the case, we just wait 'til Tianis wastes his potions. I talked with Kaigan, and he agreed that there was not really so much a matter of potions as a matter of time. Even if that had happened, potion of invis, go to x bow range, shoot, charge, same end result. Kaigan purposely didn't complain cuz he wanted to save some GP. The rock is 5 feet tall. He stands behind it. It gives cover. He doesn't ever leave cover. If you followed his tactics the crit would not have been confirmed. So without further a do, here are my tactics. I want to start with a potion of mage armor, and a potion of shield of faith, and psionically focused Win or Lose Initiative, move towards cover, and drink potion of mage armor, then Hide. Then draw crossbow, and drink potion of Sof. OWA, as a pitlord, you must follow the tactics that are sent to you. There is no room for interpetation in these tactics...
One_Winged_Angel 03-01-05, 10:37 PM	The rock is 5 feet tall. He stands behind it. It gives cover. He doesn't ever leave cover. If you followed his tactics the crit would not have been confirmed. OWA, as a pitlord, you must follow the tactics that are sent to you. There is no room for interpetation in these tactics... Ok, you're not reading in properly. The hit would never have taken place at first. Would you like round by round of what would happen? 1) Tianis is behind cover. Ac is 26 but it DOES NOT MATTER since Rex can't charge. Tianis shoots, hits. Rex spots, moves to where he can charge given the chance. 2) Tianis goes invisible, as per his tactics, moving away. 3) Tianis shoots, reavealing himself in broad daylight. Rex charges, crits, and Tianis dies. End of story. BTW, you have no place to lecture me. I've been here longer, and I do know what I'm doing. If it's a legitamit argument that would change the fight, then I will do so. But this just delay's the fight and wastes resources. If you really, really want me to, I'll do the whole thing. But what happens above is what will happen.
T'Var 03-01-05, 11:09 PM	Why can't suggang ready an action to attack when he's within melee distance? he never got close to being in melee even with double moves Rayos kept him at a good distance. also pushing an animal for a ranger/druid is a Move action not a free action. and to use it would have stopped his Rapid shooting ability. and while he could have done it round 1, it made no effect on the fight
T'Var 03-01-05, 11:14 PM	@T'Var: Thanks for running the fight! Unfortunately, GrandElf also needs to be charged for a scroll of Fox's Cunning. And I guess technically the minimonk used a couple of minibolts. EDIT: And if I may anticipate one possible problem. I didn't check the positions to see whether GrandElf, after casting the first Hideous Laughter, stopped close enough for Smommelp to drop his crossbow, run up, and start meleeing. According to my admittedly slightly vague tactics, he should not have stopped that close, because he had the psionic focus to expend to keep Concentration on a quick ride-by casting. So even if T'Var erred in not having Snommelp melee, that's moot because he also would have erred in making the positions such that Snommy had a chance to melee. Besides, with Mirror Image up, he in highest likelihood would have survived the first round of melee untouched, 5 ft stepped, and recast Hideous Laughter. You had to get that close to cast any close range spells 25+5/2 lvls and at 3rd level, well thats 30 feet. but Snommelps tactics were Specific about using ranged combat unless GrandElf started melee
Dalton Onestone 03-01-05, 11:19 PM	but Snommelps tactics were Specific about using ranged combat unless GrandElf started melee Well, that makes things simple. Good. Glad you were able to get the fight in with the board problems! Thanks again for running it, especially through the technological adversity!!! Meanwhile, for future reference, or in case you're just interested: You are right that I had to get close to cast Hideous Laughter. But part of my core tactics are to get that close, cast it, and KEEP GOING. That's why a nonmulticlassed diviner took Wild Talent as one of his feats -- it gives him a psionic focus to expend on Concentration checks.
MysticMonk2005 03-01-05, 11:36 PM	Ok, fight has been fixed. Same outcome, only one more stone is used.
spasheridan 03-01-05, 11:46 PM	Ok, you're not reading in properly. The hit would never have taken place at first. Would you like round by round of what would happen? What am I not reading properly? 1) Tianis is behind cover. Ac is 26 but it DOES NOT MATTER since Rex can't charge. Tianis shoots, hits. Rex spots, moves to where he can charge given the chance. The shot is made on rnd 3 at the earliest, there's a chance that Rex could charge.. that depends on where he is when the x-bow shot happens. Only way to know it is to run the fight 2) Tianis goes invisible, as per his tactics, moving away. 3) Tianis shoots, reavealing himself in broad daylight. Rex charges, crits, and Tianis dies. End of story. Tianis would shoot from max x-bow range and behind cover, again making a charge either impossible or vs an ac of 26. Per his tactics. No where in Tianis's tactics does he say "stand me in the open and shoot Rex" So no.. it's not end of story. If you followed the tactics then the crit would not have confirmed. BTW, you have no place to lecture me. I've been here longer, and I do know what I'm doing. If it's a legitamit argument that would change the fight, then I will do so. But this just delay's the fight and wastes resources. If you really, really want me to, I'll do the whole thing. But what happens above is what will happen. I wasn't lecturing you before, I was pointing out an error in the fight you ran. I believe that ignoring one of the combatants tactics is an error. Anywho, I can see that you're getting a little hot under the colar. My aplogies! If you've been here longer you get the "I can do no wrong" sticker.. so.. of course, you're right.
spasheridan 03-01-05, 11:50 PM	@T'Var- Thanks, I missed the part where pushin is a move action for rangers. And it looks like I missed the locations as well.. they were VERY far apart and it was impossible to get there on rnd 2... Sorry!
One_Winged_Angel 03-01-05, 11:58 PM	What am I not reading properly? The shot is made on rnd 3 at the earliest, there's a chance that Rex could charge.. that depends on where he is when the x-bow shot happens. Only way to know it is to run the fight Tianis would shoot from max x-bow range and behind cover, again making a charge either impossible or vs an ac of 26. Per his tactics. No where in Tianis's tactics does he say "stand me in the open and shoot Rex" So no.. it's not end of story. If you followed the tactics then the crit would not have confirmed. I wasn't lecturing you before, I was pointing out an error in the fight you ran. I believe that ignoring one of the combatants tactics is an error. Anywho, I can see that you're getting a little hot under the colar. My aplogies! If you've been here longer you get the "I can do no wrong" sticker.. so.. of course, you're right. Please check your PM box.
Snommelp 03-02-05, 12:09 AM	You had to get that close to cast any close range spells 25+5/2 lvls and at 3rd level, well thats 30 feet. but Snommelps tactics were Specific about using ranged combat unless GrandElf started melee What? Preposterous! Why would a... oh. So I did. Yeah, that was a mistake on my part. I meant to say that if GrandElf got close enough for melee, Snomm would engage. Of course, I expected him to be using long-range spells, not close stuff. My mistake. And since I'm back from my late classes, I can finish correcting Flower vs. Aeluath. You're lucky I'm blaming myself for Snomm's loss, T'Var :D :P
Snommelp 03-02-05, 01:40 AM	I guess it's only fair. Last time I reran a Flower fight, Flower lost. Now she won in the rematch. In the twentieth round. Low level combat shouldn't last that long. It'll be up in the Fights thread in a moment; costs were the same, except Flower didn't use the Protection from Good potion.
Kaigan 03-02-05, 03:24 AM	Really sorry Snommelp, but why didn't you use my mounted combat feat?
Dalton Onestone 03-02-05, 04:43 AM	@Cat -- Is it my imagination, or have you been listing Kwerrock as having lost his fight with Uhme for most of this week, dating back to when the fight had been run once and the pitlord said that Kwerrock had won it?
Dalton Onestone 03-02-05, 04:52 AM	What? Preposterous! Why would a... oh. So I did. Yeah, that was a mistake on my part. I meant to say that if GrandElf got close enough for melee, Snomm would engage. Of course, I expected him to be using long-range spells, not close stuff. My mistake. And since I'm back from my late classes, I can finish correcting Flower vs. Aeluath. You're lucky I'm blaming myself for Snomm's loss, T'Var :D :P As I pointed out in my note to T'Var a little earlier in the thread, my tactics had that contingency covered anyway. On the first attempt to cast Hideous Laughter, GrandElf shouldn't have stopped anywhere that Snommelp could get to. And on the second attempt, the spell actually worked. Frankly, I don't think unmounted noncasters are in a very good position in LG, at least at the low levels we've seen so far. Their opponents are too able to dictate the terms and pace of the battle.
Caterane 03-02-05, 04:53 AM	No, first I noted down the loss, calculated the power ratings. Then I won and deleted the loss, uncalculated the powerratings, marked the win and calculated the powerratings, and now I'll just wait for Cellardweller to finish the fight. If I win I save some work. If not, I'll change it for the third time (which would be also true for my character sheet)
Dalton Onestone 03-02-05, 04:57 AM	Ahh. Given that you found an error in the fight yourself, I wasn't clear on why you changed things to a win, but OK. Anyhow, I keep my sheet editing in Microsoft Word until it seems clear that the fight result has stabilized. It seems SIMPLER that way. :D :D :D
cellardweller 03-02-05, 08:50 AM	3.0 done
One_Winged_Angel 03-02-05, 09:32 AM	Final clencher for Tianis vs. Rex: OK, I factored in what happened, and this is the fight after Tianis drank the potions: Rex now has one round to burn before Tianis snipes him, so he moves up to Tianis' former position. Tianis takes the round to drink his potion, then snipes. Same damage, and Rex still spots. Since Tianis is behind cover this is what happens. | | | | | | | | | | | | |R|T|0| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Rex rages as a free action. Tianis, as per his tactics, drinks the potion of Invis. Rex, with an attack of opp (btw, no five ft step is possible. Still within range), still hits, still conferms due to the +1 I forgot to factor in for elevated position. @Kaigan: Dude, if you really, really want me to burn those potions, I'll do a re-write. @spasheridan: Happy?
Sindorin 03-02-05, 09:34 AM	Umm... well, pairings are today and Va'ria's fight is nowhere to be seen. I may just cry. Oh well.
Caterane 03-02-05, 10:34 AM	3.0 done Thanks a lot David. I'll assign you an easy fight this week. I still get only 1200 XP, not 1400. Of course, I keep them if you think that defeating a gladiator that has been specifically designed to fight Uhmentarymster is worth the extra 200 :D
Jindl 03-02-05, 10:49 AM	New problem: did we ever come to an agreement about mounted lancers attacking adjacent opponents? It wasn't important before because of the 5 foot step rule, but now the horse is stuck in place. The rules of the game article was pretty clear. The mounted attack can originate from any square occupied by a mount. So it is possible for the attack to originate from a square that is not adjacent to the opponent, thus the attack can be made with a lance.
spasheridan 03-02-05, 11:11 AM	@OWA- Look at that, +1 for being mounted. I didn't notice it! I guess that crit does confirm and it's 1 hit and BOOM.
Huan 03-02-05, 11:25 AM	Expansion of the long-ago project Indri vs Brandt (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5567314) is up (but note how brief the fight was in light of the story ... :embarrass ). My other story is coming soon, although not quite as long.
SnarkHunter 03-02-05, 11:29 AM	Damon vs. Risal (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=5563964#post5563964) finally finished. I'll just say it was not what I expected.
Snommelp 03-02-05, 11:47 AM	Really sorry Snommelp, but why didn't you use my mounted combat feat? Like my response to so many complaints against that fight, I just plain forgot. There was a whole lot going on in that fight, much of which I botched somehow (Giving Aeluath extra saves against Heat Metal, shortening Heat Metal's length, etc.). If the two of you really want it, I can always rerun the fight this week.
T'Var 03-02-05, 11:58 AM	Like my response to so many complaints against that fight, I just plain forgot. There was a whole lot going on in that fight, much of which I botched somehow (Giving Aeluath extra saves against Heat Metal, shortening Heat Metal's length, etc.). If the two of you really want it, I can always rerun the fight this week. average dmg from heat metal does 20dmg to both horse and rider not accounted for by the accidental shortened time of effect and multi saving throws with that and the eventual janni and both k9s dont think its nessessary
michael_noah 03-02-05, 12:18 PM	The rules of the game article was pretty clear. The mounted attack can originate from any square occupied by a mount. So it is possible for the attack to originate from a square that is not adjacent to the opponent, thus the attack can be made with a lance. Sorry to jump in here, but I think that you're completely wrong. The relevant passage: For all game purposes, you and your mount function as a single unit on the battlefield. Your mount continues to use its own space and reach while carrying you. You effectively use your mount's space and your own reach (or whatever extended reach your weapon gives you) while mounted. While you're mounted, any attack that can reach a square in the space you and your mount jointly occupy can affect you or your mount (it doesn't make a difference which square). Likewise, you measure your reach for your melee attacks and the range for your ranged attacks from any square you and your mount jointly occupy. You don't get cover from your mount unless you use the Ride skill to get it, and your mount doesn't block your attacks and provide your foes with cover. Note that it says nothing about attacks originating from squares. It says that you can measure your reach from any square you choose. Nowhere does it remove the restriction against attacking an adjacent opponent with a reach weapon. Do not conveniently ignore the beginning of the passage, which states that you share your mount's space (not part of its space). It does not matter whence you measure the reach, you still occupy a space adjacent to the opponent, and cannot attack him with a normal reach weapon.
Huan 03-02-05, 03:09 PM	Slight expansion of Borrix vs Roy Mustang (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5551775) up.
Dalton Onestone 03-02-05, 03:24 PM	3.0 done Thank you, but ARGGGGGHGHHHHHH!!!!!!! I posted before the fight ever started -- before you ever rolled init -- that I was relying on the consensus view that horses don't fall on Sleep. Now I find out right before pairings that you decided to rule against the consensus view. I really, really wish you'd told me earlier, in which case I would have brought the heavy horse. And then there's the Pro Good/Mage Armor you didn't use for Kwerrock ... And I don't see why you used True Strikes for Uhme and not for Kwerrock. It seems from the notes that you interspersed that you put a fair amount of thought into optimizing Uhme's combat tactics, but that you got tired and didn't extend the same courtesy to Kwerrock. Oh well; I guess Cat earned the win by virtue of all the work he does on our behalf.
Sindorin 03-02-05, 03:47 PM	Ya know what? I applaud cellardweller for actually taking time out of his day to re run that thing three times or whatever for you. I don't think I would have re run it more than once. Just be happy that both of your character's fights were posted. I had but one active character this week, and that fight has yet to be posted. It happens to be against cellardweller's character.
Dalton Onestone 03-02-05, 03:53 PM	It's not Cellardweller, that's for sure. It's the system. This idea of taking away a fight and running it offline leaves too much to chance -- I mean beyond the luck of the dice. There's also luck as to whether the pitlord will read and understand your tactics. There's luck as to whether he'll make an important and surprising ruling that, had you discovered it, would have led you to change the rest of the tactics. There's luck as to how skillfully he improvises on your behalf. All this is particularly relevant when gladiators with tons of expendable items fight, because there are so many different realistic tactical choices. Right now, I don't think it's a solvable problem.
Sindorin 03-02-05, 04:02 PM	We are a work in progress. Pitlording is a tasking thing. I agree it seems like it has its flaws, but we have to remember that we're in an online forum hundreds, sometimes thousands of miles (or kilometers) away from each other. I could see how we could run fights without a pitlord via an AIM or Yahoo (or any other) chat, possibly with a pitlord moderating as a kind of DM. Druid Roxors, former Elder, made an attempt to do just this. Sadly, though, the time constriants from RL and the time difference itself proved to be too much of a hassle, and the fight was run as a normally pitlorded fight. It would have its advantage in that at any given moment you can change that plan of attack, you could use your expendables exactly how you wanted to. I would be willing to attempt to run a fight via chat instead of a solo pitlording w/ tactics. I might have time this weekend to run such a thing, but you would need to find a willing opponent.
spasheridan 03-02-05, 04:23 PM	@Ayatoshi- THanks for getting the match in before the deadline for the next pairings! I noticed you didn't have Fineal's puppy do anything.. probably not a big deal but it was within attack range on rnd 2 if the moves were correct. No biggie, I was a pretty ugly pincushion by then!
Dalton Onestone 03-02-05, 04:31 PM	Thanks, Sindorin. But I suspect as I'm sure you suspect that the model simply wouldn't scale. And people would have other sudden obligations on the weekends (e.g., I have a monthly deadline on Monday, and what if I'm not far enough along in the column?). And so on. I'm sure you can imagine the pitfalls much better than I can. I'm going to step back from the CoCo. I don't mind luck factors in games when it's quantifiable, probabilistic luck. I don't mind illogic happening in ordinary campaigns, because that's interactive storytelling, and good stories almost always have illogical elements. But CoCo is pretty purely a strategy game, yet I don't know how to strategize around the kinds of luck factors I mentioned in the prior note. It's not a matter of overall record; prior to this match Kwerrock won and lost one bout each due to lousy pitlording, and had won all his others fair and square (I think). I just can't muster the interest to design a character and his tactics, given how little reflection of them there is in any but the simplest of bouts.
Sindorin 03-02-05, 04:44 PM	Yeah I hear that. All of it :). One thing I have noticed though is that luck is a big factor here at low levels - with any build, definitely. I know the fights haven't been run properly at times (myself included) but there is a definite difference in character performance once you get to mid and upper levels (I hit a glass ceiling with my first character, Tair Malek, until I was able to learn more about the game, and I think he still probably would get schooled by others at that level because I don't know what tactics would work for him).
One_Winged_Angel 03-02-05, 10:13 PM	@OWA- Look at that, +1 for being mounted. I didn't notice it! I guess that crit does confirm and it's 1 hit and BOOM. Yah. Normally, I forget about it until it's something like this. I feel kinda bad for Kaigan. That was just horrid luck, not a fault in his build.
Dalton Onestone 03-03-05, 02:22 AM	Yeah I hear that. All of it :). One thing I have noticed though is that luck is a big factor here at low levels - with any build, definitely. I know the fights haven't been run properly at times (myself included) but there is a definite difference in character performance once you get to mid and upper levels (I hit a glass ceiling with my first character, Tair Malek, until I was able to learn more about the game, and I think he still probably would get schooled by others at that level because I don't know what tactics would work for him). I've thought about it a bit, and I don't think the problems can be solved unless every pitlord literally has a conversation with each player before each bout, to resolve ambiguities in tactics and disagreements about the rules. For example, in the fight I've been discussing in this thread, pretty much every error or glitch that's been complained about would probably have been averted by such a pair of conversations. Since my prior round of complaining a few weeks ago, I've consistently had some of the best pitlords available (Cat mainly, also Cellardweller and T'Var). Even so, half or more of my fights in that period have had serious errors, whether or not those errors affected the final outcome. But realistically, there's no way such conversations are going to reliably happen. Even Cat, who actually urges such conversations on everybody and likes to have them himself, nonetheless insisted in one case that I turn in tactics without knowing what my opponent's final character sheet was.* If he doesn't do it, almost nobody will. *And it wasn't a trivial matter. My tactics focused on attacking fast to avert an early Fireball detonating on my 11 HP gladiator, and it turned out my opponent didn't even HAVE a scroll of Fireball or anything else that could attack that quickly. I just don't like the luck issues that result from all this ambiguity. I don't like having it be a matter of luck whether or not my tactics are actually followed. I don't like having it be a matter of luck whether I guess which standard rule interpretations the pitlord follows, and which ones he holds a minority view on. So I'm out of here. Kwerrock already has been retired, and after this week's bout GrandElf the Gray is retiring as well. I wish great gaming to all, and I thank you all deeply for the time you've spent educating me, talking with me, pitlording for me, or competing with me.
Dalton Onestone 03-03-05, 06:17 AM	I looked over Kwerrock's last fight again -- to see if there errors were mainly in my comprehension rather than the fight itself -- and here's an example of the problem: The pitlord decided that Uhme's best strategy was to close for melee. He also decided that Kwerrock's best strategy, rather than directly attacking Uhme and his 11 HP, was to focus on trying to kill Uhme's horse, so as to force him into melee, rather than either buffing or directly attacking Uhme. This combination of strategies did not favor Kwerrock. And I find it hard to accept that Kwerrock had to have the stupider strategy by far, just because his INT was lower or something. I don't think that's really the paradigm around here in any consistent way. Another unfortunate thing for Kwerrock was that Uhme was given the privilege of attacking Kwerrock while his horse attacked too, without having to go through the formality of rolling a ride check. This is despite the fact that at least one person (I think T'Var) posted in this thread, before the fight was rerun, that ride checks were needed and had previously been overlooked. It also seems as if Kwerrock thought he wasn't able to use a wand or otherwise act on a moving horse at all for several rounds, which is really a weird concept, although maybe Cellardweller wrote down the positions inaccurately as shorthand, and they are not to be taken seriously. Obviously, most of you take this sort of thing in stride. But for me, it's so unreal that I have no identification with the gladiator or his actions at all. And that takes the fun out of it for me.
Dalton Onestone 03-03-05, 06:22 AM	I looked over Kwerrock's last fight again -- to see if there errors were mainly in my comprehension rather than the fight itself -- and here's an example of the problem: The pitlord decided that Uhme's best strategy was to close for melee. He also decided that Kwerrock's best strategy, rather than directly attacking Uhme and his 11 HP, was to focus on trying to kill Uhme's horse, so as to force him into melee, rather than either buffing or directly attacking Uhme. This combination of strategies did not favor Kwerrock. And I find it hard to accept that Kwerrock had to have the stupider strategy by far, just because his INT was lower or something. I don't think that's really the paradigm around here in any consistent way. Another unfortunate thing for Kwerrock was that Uhme was given the privilege of attacking Kwerrock while his horse attacked too, without having to go through the formality of rolling a ride check. This is despite the fact that at least one person (I think T'Var) posted in this thread, before the fight was rerun, that ride checks were needed and had previously been overlooked. It also seems as if Kwerrock thought he wasn't able to use a wand or otherwise act on a moving horse at all for several rounds, which is really a weird concept, although maybe Cellardweller wrote down the positions inaccurately as shorthand, and they are not to be taken seriously. Obviously, most of you take this sort of thing in stride. But for me, it's so unreal that I have no identification with the gladiator or his actions at all. And that takes the fun out of it for me.
cellardweller 03-03-05, 07:42 AM	<takes a deep breath and counts to ten> I looked over Kwerrock's last fight again -- to see if there errors were mainly in my comprehension rather than the fight itself -- and here's an example of the problem: The pitlord decided that Uhme's best strategy was to close for melee. He also decided that Kwerrock's best strategy, rather than directly attacking Uhme and his 11 HP, was to focus on trying to kill Uhme's horse, so as to force him into melee, rather than either buffing or directly attacking Uhme. If you ever decided it was completely impossible for Kwerrock to catch Uhme, do you think you'd ever have Kwerrock kill his horse instead (e.g., with the Wand of Magic Missiles)? That was your decision, not mine. This combination of strategies did not favor Kwerrock. And I find it hard to accept that Kwerrock had to have the stupider strategy by far, just because his INT was lower or something. I don't think that's really the paradigm around here in any consistent way. Another unfortunate thing for Kwerrock was that Uhme was given the privilege of attacking Kwerrock while his horse attacked too, without having to go through the formality of rolling a ride check. This is despite the fact that at least one person (I think T'Var) posted in this thread, before the fight was rerun, that ride checks were needed and had previously been overlooked. The ride check on round that Uhme attacked with the shocking grasp was a simple oversight. No other ride checks were required as Uhme always had a free hand. It also seems as if Kwerrock thought he wasn't able to use a wand or otherwise act on a moving horse at all for several rounds, which is really a weird concept, although maybe Cellardweller wrote down the positions inaccurately as shorthand, and they are not to be taken seriously. There was no point in moving anywhere, as Uhme's horse outpaced yours. I could have had your character move around all it would have achieved was a rotation of the arena so I didn't bother. The tactics I received from you were a mishmash of many conflicting strategies with little or no indication of when to use each strategy. Every single round of that fight I had to choose between 5 or so conflicting actions listed in your tactics (Cat was a little guilty of this in his tactics this week too). If you want your gladiator to act a certain way write it down, if not you leave it up to the pitlord to guess what you think is best for your character. They didn't design the build, they can only interpolate you had in mind. That doesn't mean that you have to submit 10 pages of tactics, it means providing general responses to general situations. Take any of my tactics for example - in almost 3 years of fighting in the various incarnations of this collesium I can count the number of times a pitlord has had to improvise or make a decision on my behalf on my fingers, an yet they are rarely longer than 10 lines. Clarity and succinctness are the key. Don't say "Please heal Kwerrock or Horsey at your discretion" say "Heal via CLW scroll at 15 hp, heal via sacrificed CMW at 5hp. Heal horse via CLW at 12hp. Withdraw before healing." As a pitlord I improvise only when all the options are provided are exhausted, every round you performed an action that was either listed in your tactics or in this thread. You said buff then cast silence, so I buffed and then cast silence; You said MM the horse so I MM'd the horse; you said grapple so I grappled. I really don't see where you are getting the room to complain.
Dalton Onestone 03-03-05, 03:25 PM	I really don't see where you are getting the room to complain. And no matter how many times I explained it, or how many examples I gave, I'm sure you still wouldn't. In the various versions of running this fight, I recall you admitting the following outright errors: 1. The luck reroll 2. The ride check 3. Not buffing Kwerrock as per tactics 4. Giving Cat a scroll he didn't have. 5. Not giving Eule a clear path with Shocking Grasp. 4 out of 5 of those favored Cat. Meanwhile, you are incorrect when you claim that Cat's tactics were exhausted. What would be more accurate is that Cat's SMART tactics were exhausted, because they assumed Uhme would be inferior to Kwerrock in melee, and you judged that the situation had shifted so that Uhme had the melee advantage. You just improvised because you thought his tactics as written were obviously suboptimal for the surprising situation that had evolved. Swerrock's situation was almost exactly the same -- I, like Cat, had written tactics which assumed melee would favor Kwerrock over Uhme, but in fact you judged that the situation had reversed. However, for my gladiator you stuck to a much more literal (in your opinion) reading of the tactics, and had him fight with increadible stupidity. For example, you say above that movement was pointless. Well, how about running away and rebuffing? You don't think that maybe Mage Armor would have kept some of those Mirror Images up a while longer? Maybe even Protection From Good? A second casting of Mirror Image never occurred to you? Hell, when Uhme moved out of range of the wand-based spell you had Kwerrock casting, you didn't even bother having Kwerrock move so as to still be able to cast it. In other words, you've just told me that doing NOTHING was as good as any other strategy Kwerrock had. IF YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE A GLADIATOR DO NOTHING WHATSOEVER, WHAT'S THE POINT OF HAVING HIM ENTERED IN A BOUT IN THE FIRST PLACE????????? I also frankly find it hard to fathom that when one gladiator has a lance, a +3 STR bonus, and muliple scrolls of True Strike, and the other has only 11 HP, that there is so little point in maneuver he just sits on is butt (and incidentally doesn't try to run away from a Sleep spell). I could go on, but there's no point.
Dalton Onestone 03-03-05, 03:49 PM	And one more thing: Kwerrock had the Deflect Arrows feat. So how did Uhme hit him with an arrow in the first place???? Is that my frigging fault too? I mentioned it on my character sheet; I mentioned it in the tactics; what else was I supposed to do??????
Jindl 03-03-05, 04:05 PM	And one more thing: Kwerrock had the Deflect Arrows feat. So how did Uhme hit him with an arrow in the first place???? Is that my frigging fault too? I mentioned it on my character sheet; I mentioned it in the tactics; what else was I supposed to do?????? Calm down. You're getting far too emotional about this. Sit back and count to ten for a minute. Remember, its just a game. Now I haven't read too much into the fight (especially since it was rerun 3 times), but I do know cellardweller as one of the most experienced and fair pitlords in the CoCo. So whatever mistakes may be there, I am certain they are unintentional.
Dalton Onestone 03-03-05, 04:17 PM	So whatever mistakes may be there, I am certain they are unintentional. I agree completely.
Dalton Onestone 03-03-05, 05:10 PM	You're getting far too emotional about this. That, however, I disagree with somewhat. It's one thing for a pitlord to make many errors. It's another for a pitlord to make many errors which overwhelmingly favor one competitor, and then tell the other competitor he has nothing to complain about. Before, I was merely frustrated to the point of dropping out of the game (because, as you point out, it's only a game, and since it stopped being fun I should stop playing). But after Cellardweller's last post, I'm also angry.
TaggIIV 03-03-05, 05:51 PM	But, connecting the game being fun only while your winning is not the best attitude either, and even if a pitlord actually did completely screw something up, intentionally as well, it only affects one match out of many and shouldnt be taken so seriously to the point of quitting. It can be frustrating, but simply arguing for the sake of arguing (which is what this is, because its so far after the fact that nothing will get changed) gets nowhere except hurt feelings and more frustration. While cellardweller may have made a couple errors, or did not translate something right (ive only skimmed the fight in one of the earlier editions), he is human and its possible to have a day where hes a little off. Now, Kwerrock has proven to be a strong character, hes get plenty of matches to play, I wouldnt sweat an isolated loss so much. I'd redirect my energy to writing good tactics for his match this week.
cellardweller 03-03-05, 06:10 PM	Of which only one very minor mistake is still in place. The other mistakes were by sitting up in front of a computer screen for 3 hours after a coming back from a 12-14 hour day at the office, not once but twice for a total of 32 rounds moderated. I don't like raising my voice, so I am now done discussing this fight.
Dalton Onestone 03-03-05, 06:26 PM	Of which only one very minor mistake is still in place. As outlined in my notes, that is VERY far from being true. Kwerrock's fight was botched in the majority of the rounds, even in Version 3.0. But I agree with you on two things: A. You put a lot of effort into the fight, and one has to stop somewhere. B. There's no point in discussing it further.
cellardweller 03-03-05, 06:32 PM	Ok, I hope you do change your mind about leaving, and that we can put this incident behind us. You can always pm pitlords to request that you don't have me as a pitlord. Cat keeps a "doesn't play well together" list, but I hope you don't and I certainly won't be requesting not to mod your characters. Peace out.
Dalton Onestone 03-03-05, 06:52 PM	even if a pitlord actually did completely screw something up, ... it only affects one match out of many and shouldnt be taken so seriously to the point of quitting. Thank you for your thoughts. However, it has been my experience that pitlords completely screw up a large fraction of matches -- at least, a large fraction of those matches that involve spellcasting and the corresponding complexity -- and that this really isn't affected by the writing style one adopts in one's tactics. My sample size for that observation is nontrivial, since I'm not just referring to my own matches. While Kwerrock is, as you say, a strong character, I don't think it's possible for him to actually be played properly in this environment. I deliberately created him to have more complex tactics than any other gladiator I knew of -- because I created him to have a good response to almost any contingency -- and I don't think that's viable in this system. And I have no interest in creating a character who is so simple, or so similar to ones who have come before, that because of familiarity he actually has a good chance of being well-handled by pitlords. Every uncommon tactic I've used for either Kwerrock or GrandElf has gotten botched in fights. (And some of them aren't even that uncommon.) Luck reroll? Forgotten. Mirror Image? (I evidently think it's a lot stronger than most people around here do.) Forgotten. And even when reminded to cast it once, and even when thinking the opponent needed to destroy the images because of the spell's power, Cellardweller didn't recast it for Kwerrock. Deflect Arrows? Forgotten. Hideous Laughter/expend psionic focus so as not to stay in melee range? Forgotten in GrandElf's latest fight. By no means is it just my characters that are affected. The Entangle spell is surely no mystery, but look at all the fights in which its use gets -- er, in which its use gets all tangled up. Cat just beat down a brick wall with his head trying to deliver Shocking Grasp via Uhme's familiar. Don't even get me started on Readies and Ride checks. And the pitlords don't understand it even after the fact. In Kwerrock's fight V3.0 I pointed out at least a Readying error, a Ride check error, a Deflect Arrows error, and a whole series of tactical errors, whereupon Cellardweller posted that there was only one very minor error left in the fight. I can't even guess which one he was talking about ....
Dalton Onestone 03-03-05, 06:54 PM	Ok, I hope you do change your mind about leaving, and that we can put this incident behind us. You can always pm pitlords to request that you don't have me as a pitlord. Cat keeps a "doesn't play well together" list, but I hope you don't and I certainly won't be requesting not to mod your characters. Peace out. No animosity from my end, Cellardweller. I certainly understand how difficult the task of pitlording is; indeed, most of what I've been posting about is to argue that it's impossibly hard. And I in no way dispute that you're one of the better pitlords around here.
Dalton Onestone 03-06-05, 01:28 AM	I just reread the Uhme/Kwerrock fight again, and I'm morbidly curious -- just what did Uhme attack with in Round 17? This is quite apart from the question about why Kwerrock was denied use of the Deflect Arrows feat despite not being surprised and having a hand free, and the one about how a horse attacks the first round its rider is grappled (in the "hypothetical" version of the fight), and the one about how and why a horse falls when put to Sleep, and of course all the ones about tactical choices.
cellardweller 03-06-05, 01:37 AM	I am now done discussing this fight. ...
Dalton Onestone 03-06-05, 01:45 AM	I'll take that as a "nothing". Just checking if I had overlooked something. Thanks.
cellardweller 03-06-05, 01:47 AM	Are you deliberately trying to prod me until I snap? If you read the fight closer you will have your answer.
Dalton Onestone 03-06-05, 02:02 AM	f you read the fight closer you will have your answer. Unarmed? Or are you asserting that when a touch spell is shared both the familiar AND the mage can deliver it? And doesn't attacking unarmed yield an AoO, whether or not you're delivering a touch spell?
cellardweller 03-06-05, 02:17 AM	The spell was cast on Uhme and shared with Eule, because Eule was always kept within 5' they were both able to make touch attacks. This is has been the CoCo interpretation of the rule for some time. While making a touch attack with a spell, you are treated as armed and don't provoke AoO's. Also, there is no rule preventing a horse from attacking someone grappling its rider. I believe it was Jindl that coined the phrase "Common sense has no place in DnD". I would really like this fight to die now.
Dalton Onestone 03-06-05, 02:26 AM	The spell was cast on Uhme and shared with Eule, because Eule was always kept within 5' they were both able to make touch attacks. This is has been the CoCo interpretation of the rule for some time. OH! I apologize in that case. That never occurred to me. As I'm sure you know, that rule contradicts a plain reading of the SRD/PHB. "Sharing" of spells and "delivering" of touch spells are in separate sections, and the "delivering" section refers to designating the familiar as THE toucher, singular. So please forgive me for not having guessed that such a rule had been invented in the CoCo. I thought I'd been around enough to puzzle out all the nonstandard rules that had been invented for the CoCo (at least their existence, if not how they worked) but I totally missed that one. Please also forgive me if some of the other apparent anomalies in the fight that I've called out can be explained by similarly obscure house rules. I won't bother asking why the house rule on touch spell delivery was invented, but if anybody wants to nerf wizards a little more, an obvious candidate would be to revert to core rules on that particular point.
cellardweller 03-06-05, 02:30 AM	The difference between the two option is that by designating the familar as the recipient of the touch spell, it is able to move more than 5' away without losing the spell.
Dalton Onestone 03-06-05, 02:33 AM	The difference between the two option is that by designating the familar as the recipient of the touch spell, it is able to move more than 5' away without losing the spell. Oh c'mon. "Share spells" only refers to spells that the master casts on "himself". Shocking Grasp isn't cast on "Himself" unless he has a perverse urge to be damaged by electricity.
Dalton Onestone 03-06-05, 02:34 AM	Also, there is no rule preventing a horse from attacking someone grappling its rider. I believe it was Jindl that coined the phrase "Common sense has no place in DnD". Whoops. I remember that now.
Dalton Onestone 03-06-05, 02:49 AM	I would really like this fight to die now. It can't. If I were staying in the CoCo, I'd have to memorialize the grotesquerie in Kwerrock's character sheet. Avoiding that is one of the reasons I'm leaving. But since I'm leaving, it's his last fight, and will remain fresh in my memory for a while. I almost hope GrandElf has a clean loss this week. I've had clean wins, blemished wins, and blemished losses, but no clean losses for a while. And he had one or two ridiculously lucky wins, so having a loss on his record would be fair.
xanadu 03-06-05, 03:27 AM	You know, it is none of my business but I still think I should say something. Dalton, your attitude (and you are not alone) makes participating in the Core Colesium utterly unenjoyable. I have only been here for maybe a month and I already tire of all the whining when somebody's character loses. Why should I ever consider pitlording if I know the loser is going to berate me about my lack of knowledge of the rules (and not feel in the least sorry when they are wrong) or make an reasonable decision when trying to interpret very confusing and cryptic tactics? My God look at the dissertation you wrote for the fight against Sivalyn. Huan ran the fight fair and square and tried to follow you laborious tactics to the best of his ability and yet you still write "A gladiator slightly resembling Kwerrock" lost and made a snide comment that the pitlord shall go "mercifully nameless" on your character sheet. I think you are far far out of line. I really wish the biggest concern of my life was re-running some insignificant game which will have absolutely no bearing on my life whatsoever over and over again. Quite frankly, I am amazed that people stick around for very long. That they do I would attribute to people like CD who is showing an incredible amount of patience and restraint. Still, as I don't interpet the loss of one of my characters as a personal affront or a matter requiring immediate resolution come hell or high water, I'm not so sure I belong. Has it always been this way :confused:
Sindorin 03-06-05, 03:40 AM	It can't. If I were staying in the CoCo, I'd have to memorialize the grotesquerie in Kwerrock's character sheet. Avoiding that is one of the reasons I'm leaving. But since I'm leaving, it's his last fight, and will remain fresh in my memory for a while. Dalton, if you are leaving then why is it such a big deal? Quit whining and just leave if that is how you feel instead of lingering around here insulting all of us.
Dalton Onestone 03-06-05, 03:48 AM	And that, Xanadu, is one reason I have brushed off those who encourage me to stick around. The idea that I'm an asset to this community is probably a minority opinion -- and if it for some odd reason isn't, it should be. That said, the problems I've called out are real, and if they aren't eventually solved even people much more patient than I will eventually get fed up. The rules currently are "Write tactics in advance to cover every contingency, and do so briefly". Those rules simply don't work for characters with innovations that the pitlords can't quickly understand. And thus only certain kinds of character innovations can work. I tried writing detailed tactics covering most contingencies, but was told that when the pitlord simply ignored them, it was my fault for making the tactics too long. I tried writing vaguer tactics, giving just the general idea, but was told that if the pitlord didn't grasp them, I was too confusing. I tried writing shorter tactics, giving the pitlord a lot of discretion, but the pitlords made ghastly decisions on my behalf, refused to use the discretion, or both. My characters have a good track record anyway, but that's hardly satisfying, as we all know that a significant fraction of gladiators around here are pretty hopeless cases, who will be clobbered by any good gladiator unless the dice get freaky. (I had amazingly good luck with the dice in my bouts.) My characters simply do not act anything like the way I envisioned, so this isn't a satisfying RPing experience. And as games go, I don't find that the winning games unfairly is much consolation for the times I have unfair losses, even if my overall record winds up being pretty much what I deserve.