Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jindl 05-13-04, 10:50 AM	Please post any comments and concerns about Fights of the Week of 5/12/2004 below. And remember to: BE NICE !! -Jindl
Beldin 05-13-04, 12:22 PM	@myr: sore errors i noticed: - gale's ac should be 17 after castin mage armor (changes nothing) - round6: Flamestrike could have full attacked gale after having moved only 5 feet.
Myrridin 05-13-04, 01:15 PM	Thanks Beldin. I'm going to go back and reroll that, also make sure that I moved Gyle 15', as he stated he wanted to stay away from things like that. If I did move him that far, I'll reroll that attacks, as they could make a seriuos difference.
Myrridin 05-13-04, 01:18 PM	He should have moved to (19, -4) the limit of his tumble ability, and still in range. As it was, if that's not the case, I rolled a "2" for the hoof attack, which misses, and a "13" for the bite, which has a +1 attack, and misses his Mage Armored self.
Pittbull 05-14-04, 05:33 AM	@MB: Nice fight! Four weeks in row Angosh has no luck, but in Germany there is a saying: bad luck in games, good luck in love. Perhaps Tori will fall in love with him after the fight. I know Angosh is not the most handsome guy in Gladius, but he has pure dark heart. Nobody knows where Armor plays his games.
Jindl 05-14-04, 11:49 AM	@Mag - At first I thought you had some errors in the Dusk vs Aemon fight. I couldn't figure out how Aemon got 3 grapple checks in a round. It wasn't until later that I realized that he had activated his boots of haste (um, you didn't list it as one of his buffs). Once the boots are taken into account, there are a few minor math errors (like Aemon's AC should have been 19: +4 armor +3 dex -1 size +2 deflection +1 haste), but I don't see anything that would change the outcome. -Jindl
Magagumo 05-14-04, 12:10 PM	@Jindl Edit: Alright, glad to see that was worked out. Yea, I made quite a few errors one important one actually affected Dusk being grappled. Glad to know it worked out alright in the end.
Jindl 05-14-04, 01:49 PM	Hey Mag - Question for you about the Lillith vs Vaarkalikax fight: Since Blight double moved in Rnd 1, did Vaarkalikax made his concentration check to cast (he had a +9 vs a DC 10+4)? Oh, and FYI: You can enter in hovering mode, if you have good/perfect manueverability or you have the hover feat. Your starting altitude must be less than 5 feet, so it doesn't matter in this fight, but it is a good countermeasure against Entangle spells. -Jindl
Ethendril 05-14-04, 02:09 PM	I didn't think I had to double move to get into range for a medium range spell...
Caterane 05-14-04, 02:39 PM	How did the whip get 20 hp and harness 5. Leather has hardness 2+2magic, and a whip doesn`t have 2 inches of thickness. Round 8: Aemon does not have the improved grapple feat so if Dusk AoO hits (and it did) the grapple fails. This goes for subsequent rounds too so as long as Dusk`s AoO hits the grapple fails. This does not only take away plenty of damage from Dusk, it also deals plenty of additional damage to Aemon from AoO's. The whip would`ve surely been sundered meanwhile. Why did Dusk not use his breath weapon? Most importantly: Dusk has 3 (three) attacks during the grapple and this is not an opposed grapple but an attack roll at -4 against Aemon`s flatfooted Ac. Plenty of damage for Aemon! Round 11: Is a natural 1 on an opposed grapple check an auto-failure? All in all Dusk should`ve won the fight EASILY.
Jindl 05-14-04, 02:51 PM	Originally posted by Caterane How did the whip get 20 hp and harness 5. Leather has hardness 2+2magic, and a whip doesn`t have 2 inches of thickness. I was wondering about that myself. I figured that a normal whip has a hardness of 2 and 2 hps (equivalent to a hempen rope). So that would mean that when it is Huge sized it would have a hardness of 2 and 2x2x2 = 8 hps. Then add the +2 hardness +10 hps for it being a +1 whip and you are left with hardness 4 and 18 hps. So Dusk's sunder attempt would do 16-4 = 12 pts and the whip would have 6/18 hps left. It doesn't really matter for the fight, but that is how I figured the hps/hardness. Originally posted by Caterane Round 8: Aemon does not have the improved grapple feat so if Dusk AoO hits (and it did) the grapple fails. This goes for subsequent rounds too so as long as Dusk`s AoO hits the grapple fails. This does not only take away plenty of damage from Dusk, it also deals plenty of additional damage to Aemon from AoO's. The whip would`ve surely been sundered meanwhile. The only thing is that Aemon was hasted and used all 3 of his attacks to try and start the grapple. Dusk countered the first attempt with his AoO, but since he doesn't have combat reflexes he couldn't stop the other 2 attempts. Originally posted by Caterane Why did Dusk not use his breath weapon? I was wondering that myself, as Dusk certainly could breath and get Aemon, the whip, and the horse. Perhaps Mag can explain why he didn't use this ability? Originally posted by Caterane Most importantly: Dusk has 3 (three) attacks during the grapple and this is not an opposed grapple but an attack roll at -4 against Aemon`s flatfooted Ac. Plenty of damage for Aemon! Unfortunately, Dusk does not get multiple attacks in a grapple. Remember, you cannot use two-weapon fighting or multiple natural attacks when grappling. Originally posted by Caterane Round 11: Is a natural 1 on an opposed grapple check an auto-failure? Yes. Grapple checks are considered to be a type of attack roll, so auto-success and auto-failure rules do apply. All in all, at first glance it looks like there are mistakes. But the closer and closer I look, it appears to be a pretty clean fight. Aemon won this fair and square. Dusk should've been smarter and used flying archer tactics... -Jindl
Ethendril 05-14-04, 03:16 PM	Dusk should've been smarter and used flying archer tactics... I had the same understanding as Cat about using my three natural attacks in a grapple until Mag emailed me after I had already submitted my tactics. I did not have time to completely change my stategy. Actually, I think I had a good tactic, but I don't think I communicated it clearly enough to Mag. My tactic was to make a single attack with my dwarven waraxe (even when sundering the whip), then move back (drawing an AoO against my AC of 30+). He would then only get one chance to start a grapple, rather than 3, when it was his turn to attack, and I would be able to hit him with my waraxe on an AoO each round to stop the grapple. I also stated that I wanted to use my breath weapon, which didn't happen. Overall, I think my tactics may have been pretty effective, but I did not communicate them clearly enough to Mag because I was trying to revise in a hurry. Anyway, Aemon did a nice job, and he's a tough guy. Had I understood that I could not use all three of my attacks, I would have purchased a scroll of divine might, and I'll do that next time I face him...then I'll be enlarged, too! I wish enlarge person worked on dragons:(
Caterane 05-14-04, 03:20 PM	Additional mistake: Aemon`s grapple should be +15 instead of +16 [+6bab,+5str,+4size]. Neither haste nor magic weapon count in grapples. This is true for subsequent rounds. This results in less damage from round 8: Aemon 18 vs Dusk 18; substracting -2 drops Aemons check to +16, which is 12 damage less for Dusk. Aemon never used his spiked gloves since he made grapple checks and no attack rolls. Using a weapon (spiked gauntlet) incurs a -4 penalty in grapples and has to hit the flatfooted Ac (of 28)!! To clarify this, please open PHB p156: you can either "Damage your opponoment". That is, making an opposed grapple check and dealing unarmed damage (1d4+5 nonleathal in Aemon's case), or he can deal leathal damage which incurrs a -4 penalty to his check. Alternatively, he can "Attack an opponoment". That is using a light weapon (such as a spiked gauntlet) but suffer a -4 penalty to attack (+1 for magic weapon). Additionally, Aemon has to hit Dusk`s flatfooted Ac of 28. No chance. So Aemon wouldn`t have had a chance in the grappling duel! Btw, haste doesn`t work if considered flatfooted. You only get the extra attack. To Jindl`s comments: and the whip would have 6/18 hps left +breath weapon = whip destroyed. but since he doesn't have combat reflexes he couldn't stop the other 2 attempts Ok, but even with Combat reflexes you can only make 1 AoO against the same character in a given round. I was wondering that myself, as Dusk certainly could breath and get Aemon, the whip, and the horse. Perhaps Mag can explain why he didn't use this ability? And remember that Aemon doesn`t get his dex modifier nor evasion during a grapple. That`s +6 vs Dc16, and at least half damage. Unfortunately, Dusk does not get multiple attacks in a grapple. Remember, you cannot use two-weapon fighting or multiple natural attacks when grappling. What? Who told you that? Using your natural weapons has nothing to do with TWF! Of course he can use Claw, claw, bite, at a -4 penalty (see "attacking your opponoment") Edit: After consulting some of my players we are all unsure about it. The description is really unclear about it. As a matter of fact, TWF has nothing to do with multiple natural attacks. My line of thought goes like that: It is clear that one cannot use a dagger in each hand while wrestling with someone. He needs at least one hand to "grab" the opponoments wrists or something else so that he can create an open hole for his offhand. Now that Dusk has claws which could both damage or grab, he should be able to use both claws because his hand is not occupied by a weapon. In any case, a bite attack should be able to do.
Jindl 05-14-04, 03:54 PM	Originally posted by Caterane Additional mistakes: Round 8: Aemon grapple 18 vs Dusk 18, success but Dusk should have 19 [+3bab,+9str,+1aid,+1favor = 14+5(roll) = 19]. That prevents another 12 damage. This is true for subsequent rounds. Aemon`s grapple should be +15 instead of +16 [+6bab,+5str,+4size]. Neither haste nor magic weapon count in grapples: Haste does add into Grapples. Magic weapon doesn't affect the grapple check, but it could affect the damage if it were applied to normal guantlets. Aemon should have had a grapple check of +16 (+6 bab +5 str +4 size +1 haste). Dusk should have had a grapple check of +14 (+3 bab +9 str +1 morale +1 luck). You are correct that the 2nd grapple attempt in Rnd 8 fails. This of course means that Aemon must succeed at another Touch attack before he can make (and succeed at) his third grapple attempt that round. It's possible that he would succeed on the third touch attack, since his attack would be +6 (+1 bab +5 str -1 size +1 haste) vs Dusk's touch AC 15 (+3 dex +2 deflection). FYI: Dusk's touch AC was incorrectly listed for the first two touch attacks in Rnd 8. Regardless, it is clear that Dusk took 12 less points of damage in Rnd 8. Originally posted by Caterane Aemon never used his spiked gloves since he made grapple checks and no attack rolls. Using a weapon incurs a -4 penalty in melee. To clarify this, please open PHB p156: you can either "Damage your opponoment". That is, making an opposed grapple check and dealing unarmed damage (1d3+5 nonleathal in Aemon's case), or he can deal leathal damage which incurrs a -4 penalty to his check. Alternatively, he can "Attack an opponoment". That is using a light weapon (such as a spiked gauntlet) but suffer a -4 penalty to attack (+1 for magic weapon). Additionally, Aemon has to hit Dusk`s flatfooted Ac of 28. No chance. You are correct regarding the spiked guantlets. They are considered an armed attack with a light weapon. They cannot be used to deal damage with a grapple check. So, when Aemon was dealing damage with grapple checks, he should have been doing 1d4+5 subdual, which is the correct unarmed damage for a large sized creature. This is a bit less than the 1d6+6 that Mag used for the spiked guantlets, and likely would have resulted in less damage to Dusk throughout the fight. Originally posted by Caterane Btw, haste doesn`t work if considered flatfooted. You only get the extra attack. You are not considered flat-footed when you are grappling. What happens is that you lose your dex bonus vs opponents other than the one you are grappling. Aemon retains his dex bonus against Dusk's attacks when he is grappling Dusk. That means he also retains his haste bonus to AC. Originally posted by Caterane Ok, but even with Combat reflexes you can only make 1 AoO against the same character in a given round. This has changed in 3.5. You now may make multiple AoO's against the same opponent, as long as there is a distinct and seperate cause for each AoO. If Dusk had combat reflexes, he could have made an AoO each time Aemon tried to start the grapple. See the combat reflexes feat for more info. Sorry, you actually want to look at the Combat Basics, Attacks of Opportunity, Making an Attack of Opportunity, Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity section of the SRD. Originally posted by Caterane And remember that Aemon doesn`t get his dex modifier nor evasion during a grapple. That`s +6 vs Dc16, and at least half damage. I already answered this above. Aemon retains his dex bonus and his evasion while grappling. He is not flat-footed. Originally posted by Caterane What? Who told you that? Using your natural weapons has nothing to do with TWF! Of course he can use Claw, claw, bite, at a -4 penalty (see "attacking your opponoment") Please read the following section from the SRD, Types Subtypes and Abilities, the Rake entry: "Rake (Ex): A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks when it grapples its foe. Normally, a monster can attack with only one of its natural weapons while grappling, but a monster with the rake ability usually gains two additional claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. Rake attacks are not subject to the usual –4 penalty for attacking with a natural weapon in a grapple. A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn" You'll notice that the section in red says that normally you may only use a single natural attack when grappling. This was first made clear to me in one of Jindl's last fights before the Lvl 13 freeze. It's part of the reason I have chosen to use Dire Lion form instead of Dire Bear form for his last couple of fights. Summation Although not all of Cat's points were correct, he still has made a very good case to revisit this fight. Dusk should have taken at least 12 less damage in Rnd 8, and subsequent rounds as Aemon would deal 1d4+5 subdual instead of 1d6+6 per successful grapple check. Additionally, Aemon's third grapple check in Rnd 8 would have to follow a successful touch attack roll, which has only a 55% chance of success. Even if he were to succeed and initiate the grapple, Dusk took much less damage and would have survived Aemon's attacks in Rnd 11. With Aemon having only a few hp's left, it is pretty likely that Dusk's counterattack would kill him. @Mag - Please take a close look at these points. -Jindl
Caterane 05-14-04, 04:40 PM	Another mistake: Dusk didn`t use his luck bonus reroll on his first failed grapple check! Originally posted by Jindl: Haste does add into Grapples. PHB, p156: Grapple check = bab + str + size nothing else. Originally posted by Jindl: You are not considered flat-footed when you are grappling. What happens is that you lose your dex bonus vs opponents other than the one you are grappling. Aemon retains his dex bonus against Dusk's attacks when he is grappling Dusk. That means he also retains his haste bonus to AC. PHB, p156: [grapple] you lose your dex bonus to Ac PHB, p239: [haste] any condition that makes you lose your dex bonus to Ac also makes you lose dodge bonuses. Originally posted by Jindl: I already answered this above. Aemon retains his dex bonus and his evasion while grappling. He is not flat-footed. See above: he does not retain his dex bonus. He loses evasion.
Jindl 05-14-04, 04:45 PM	Originally posted by Caterane Another mistake: Dusk didn`t use his luck bonus reroll on his first failed grapple check! PHB, p156: [grapple] you lose your dex bonus to Ac PHB, p239: [haste] any condition that makes you lose your dex bonus to Ac also makes you lose dodge bonuses. See above: he does not retain his dex bonus. He loses evasion. You are right about the Luck reroll on his first failed grapple check. As for the Dex bonus + Evasion, please read the following excerpt from the SRD, Combat II - Movement, Modifiers, Special Actions, Grapple, Grappling Consequences: "No Dexterity Bonus: You lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if you have one) against opponents you aren’t grappling. (You can still use it against opponents you are grappling.)" Aemon retains his dex bonus and his evasion ability against Dusk while he is grappling Dusk. -Jindl
Limit 05-14-04, 04:46 PM	Originally posted by Caterane PHB, p156: [grapple] you lose your dex bonus to Ac PHB, p239: [haste] any condition that makes you lose your dex bonus to Ac also makes you lose dodge bonuses. See above: he does not retain his dex bonus. He loses evasion. SRD, Combat II.rtf: You lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if you have one) against opponents you aren’t grappling. (You can still use it against opponents you are grappling.) So he doesn't lose his bonus against the person he is grappling, so he wouldn't lose his dodge bonuses versus the person he is grappling (although he would lose both against outside attackers).
Magagumo 05-14-04, 04:46 PM	Double Post
Jindl 05-14-04, 04:50 PM	deleted
Magagumo 05-14-04, 04:53 PM	Hmm, I see about the MW. The interesting thing, si that I screwed up on the round of three grapple attempts (where AoO was incurred), in that I believe Aemon had originally missed Dusk (DOn't forget that Dusk had charged but was using Expertise), and then his third grapple attempt connected and dealt 12 damage. Thusly, if you are correct, then I was right when I originally had only the third grapple attempt succeed, so Dusk takes 6 less damage that round (I always retain the first-rolls, so the most rcent, new third roll is lost). As for breath weapon, Eth stated that it was only to be vs. the horse, and depite the horse's one successful attack, it seemed far more important to stop the grappler from killing him. As for the whip, it is still a one-handed melee weapon (as per Ch 7 of PHB), and I treated it as a hafted weapon, as it is not a blade or metal. Thusly, it had hardness 5 and hp 5 x 4 (Huge). I wondered at this decision, but there are no other listings for whip hp (and I did not wish to adjudicate its hp carelessly). It says the whip has a +1 enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls, so I suppose its hardness would actually be 7, and its hp 30. @Eth, I apologize if the expertise atatck was handleled incorrectly. As you can see, the whip and horse can't hit you, but your touch AC is still low enough for Aemon, my apologies for chagring when perhaps more precaution was desired. Thusly, I will review the fight with the knowledge of the grappling damage (sorry about that, I remember Jagath using cold iron gauntlets to deal damage to Kiri in a grapple, so I presumed it could be done here), and rechecking ACs. I will announce when my review/adjustments are complete.
Jindl 05-14-04, 05:14 PM	Originally posted by Caterane PHB, p156: Grapple check = bab + str + size nothing else. I can name at least one other thing that adds in: Weapon Focus (grapple). It's right there in the PHB. The simple answer is: Grapple's are a form of attack roll, and any bonuses/penalties that apply to attack rolls also apply to grapples. That's why Dusk gets his +1 morale bonus (aid) and his +1 luck bonus (divine favor) to his grapple checks. That's why Ebelin takes a -2 to his grapple checks when he flurries while grappling. That's why Aemon gets his +1 haste bonus on his grapple check. @Mag - Okay, either way the whip is not sundered. Oh, and Aemon cannot deal 12 damage with a grapple check, as his unarmed damage is 1d4+5 (max of 9 pts). I'm afraid you'll have to reroll all of his damage rolls. I'll wait until you post the reviewed copy of the fight before commenting further. -Jindl
Tellish_of_Ket 05-14-04, 05:22 PM	Originally posted by Ethendril Overall, I think my tactics may have been pretty effective, but I did not communicate them clearly enough to Mag As i read your tactics and the fight, i think you communicated them clearly enough. History is simply repeating itself is all. -ToK
Magagumo 05-14-04, 05:29 PM	What's that mean ToK? And by the by, the fight is complete- First, AC totals were correct, as Dusk had charged the round prior and the AC had not yet reset. However, the luck reroll (Forgot about that, sorry Eth), caused the second grapple check to also fail. The third grapple succeeded, and things moved on from there (I had a miscalculation in Dusk's hp, so he was actually more wounded than listed. However, I then recalculated all the damage totals, and that brought us to Round 11, with Dusk still standing at 45 hp and 40 subdual, you can read what happened on his last action to see for yourself. Also, Breath Weapon would not have affected whip, as it is considered attended and thus only 1!s on Rex saves could bring about damage to it. In the end, changes have been made, my misinterpretation of Eths desires were rendered null by a 19 touch attack by Aemon (it didn't matter if his AC was 2 higher, he still would have been snagged), and its your turn to persue for more errors. Hope everything is good now, and I'm glad you guys were there to catch my mistakes.
Jindl 05-14-04, 05:44 PM	@Mag - Having just read the revised version, then only thing I notice is that in Rnd 8, the first grapple check had Dusk using a +13 grapple mod (which resulted in a tied roll with Aemon and Dusk using his Luck domain re-roll). Everywhere else in the fight, Dusk has a +14 grapple check. Why is it only +13 on this roll? -Jindl
Beldin 05-14-04, 06:45 PM	@mag: in round 9 i won one grapple check, but i did not deal any damage to him. unfortunately i immagined spiked gauntlets could be used in a grapple
Magagumo 05-14-04, 07:54 PM	@Jindl Recall that when Dusk attacked the lash, he charged but also took Combat Expertise. This lowered his total attack by 1 while adding 1 to his AC. Thusly, his grapple check was one lower for Round 8, then returned to normal when he stopped using Expertise (as it would not have benefited him in the grapple). *Looks at ROund 9, and sighs* Lordy, I'm really sorry to all involved here, because I apparently made a slew of errors.... Beldin is correct in that Round 9 a grapple check was made by Aemon, but no damage was assigned to it. As the damage has been 1d4+5, min dmg results in Dusk being knoecked out by Aemon's last attack. Now, I don't want to be hasty, and I want Jindl and/or other Elder MOds to give this one last review (because we all missed that grapple check it seems). But as it stands, I believe that Aemon did, in fact win. :( Sorry Ethendril & Beldin, you should expect more out of your Mod than this, and I can only offer one last apology for what has transpired here. I leave this to the reviewing board, but I think Aemon did win. Also, I demand a negative credit for my multitude of mistakes- there's no reason we should have the declared winner change two times, and I can think of no other way to punish a faulty mod but the credit loss (I certainly don't wish to stop Modding).
SnarkHunter 05-14-04, 08:27 PM	Don't be so hard on yourself Mag. The important thing is that your working to get a fair end to the fight. I haven't finished it yet but if I notice anything else I'll mention it here. @Beldin, what you want are armor spikes, very efficent for dealing damage.
Jindl 05-14-04, 10:38 PM	Originally posted by SnarkHunter Don't be so hard on yourself Mag. The important thing is that your working to get a fair end to the fight. I haven't finished it yet but if I notice anything else I'll mention it here. I agree with Snark. Just keep working to get it right. I think Beldin pointed out an important error. It would seem that Aemon may have rendered Dusk unconscious before Dusk could finish him off. -Jindl
kedi 05-15-04, 03:36 AM	http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?threadid=69954&perpage=30&pagenumber=22 pls check and lmk if there are any problems.
MotherBast 05-15-04, 08:36 AM	Kidi: Well, for starters, I noticed a couple of problems. When BM attacks and then hides, that is a snipe, which whould give him -20 to the hide check. More importantly though, you allowed the bard to draw a potion, drink a potion, and cast a sleep spell all in the same turn. This series of action should have taken 3 turns to complete. The first turn to draw and drink the potion. Sleep is a full round spell, so on the second turn she would be casting it. Note that it would not be finished at the end of her turn, so BM would have had a full round to disrupt it. Third turn, if not disrupted, the spell resolves. Also note that BM has Rapid shot, so on the turn where he attempted his sneak attack wtih the bow he would have gotten a second attack, which might have ended the fight before the sleep spell was even attempted. The "sleep is a full round spell" has been brought up time and time again. I strongly suggest newer pitlords review old fights so that these mistakes are not made repeatedly. Also, Kidi, in the RP thread you have like 6 fights posted. Are these old fights that you ran are what? They confused me quite a bit.
kedi 05-15-04, 09:23 AM	1. Snipe: Ugh. Solved it. 2. Complexity of the Turn: Ugh. Solved it. 3. Rapid Shot: His default tactics never mention the rapid shot, thus I never bothered to think it for him. 4. General: Result is not changed.
MotherBast 05-15-04, 09:31 AM	Kidi: You did not solve the sleep problem. You still have her casting sleep in a single turn. This is not possible. If she begins casting sleep on her turn, it will not resolve untill the start of her following turn, as it is a "full round spell." That means BM gets another attack, and a chance to either move out of the range of the spell, or to do damage and kill her or disrupt her spell.
kedi 05-15-04, 09:44 AM	the fight is extended one more turn, no more. EDIT: it's KEDI, not kidi! :D
Boldrift-Mattock 05-15-04, 12:30 PM	Kedi thanks for running my fight. Sorry i didn't send tactics. i been workding all week. and i havent been able to get to a computer that works. i just reviewed my figtht and i am dissapointed with teh way it was ran. i know my defalt tactic do not specificaly say to use rapid shot, but i can not see why you wouldnt use it. i expected anyone who ran my fight would have me use the best of my abiliteys. espically when i was close to finishing her off i should have used rapid shot. i didn't even know my fight had been run untill motherbast told me, and i had planed to make tactics today. my computer is not working right now, so i was going to use his. i have never complained about any of my fights before, but i really think rapid shot should have been used. i want to ask for a rerun on this, using rapid shot. if you dont want to rerun it then i guess ill just have to suck up my loss.
SnarkHunter 05-15-04, 01:04 PM	Hey Mercy, nothing huge-and prolly my tactics weren't to clear on this-but I wanted to use the scroll of resist energy ASAP if he hit me with a melfs.
Mercy 05-15-04, 01:18 PM	@SnarkHunter - Sorry about that, I just missed it.
Boldrift-Mattock 05-15-04, 01:23 PM	Kedi, i been looking at the fight more. on round 3 when i sneak attack, you put me down as 5 + 5 + 1 + 3. I assume the 1 is my point blank, and the 3 is my strength. so, that makes the first 5 my dmage roll, and the second 5 a d6 sneak attack. I should still have 1 more d6, since my sneak attack is 2d6. even if you roll a 1 on the extra die, that puts her at 0, and she wont be able to draw and drink the potion the next round, since she can't take full actions at 0. so my next attack kills her. if im right, then i won this fight, evben if you don't go back and use rapid shot.
Magagumo 05-15-04, 05:57 PM	@ Limit- good call on that strange "prone" grapple suggestion- it does not exist. In order to render an opponent prone, you must trip them or use overrun. In a grapple, I suppose one could simply declare the opponent already touched, and that you could initiate trip check right there, but I believe you would need Improved Trip to do such a thing. As for the withholding of glitterdust by Delayar, couldn't he have simply centered the burst beyond his horse? I believe the animal was "facing" his opponent, so it wouldn't be too hard to determine. I suppose the spell's range would be the only limiting factor here. Obviously not a big deal in the long run, but just something to consider.
MotherBast 05-15-04, 06:10 PM	Actually, a grappler can "pin" an opponit, which would make them prone. But the strengh check to escape was wrong. If the person pined makes his opposed check to "escape the pin", then he is no longer beneith his opponit, no matter how the opponit was pinning him. The opposed grapple roll is the strengh check.
Limit 05-15-04, 06:12 PM	Originally posted by Magagumo As for the withholding of glitterdust by Delayar, couldn't he have simply centered the burst beyond his horse? I believe the animal was "facing" his opponent, so it wouldn't be too hard to determine. I suppose the spell's range would be the only limiting factor here. Obviously not a big deal in the long run, but just something to consider. His tactics didn't call for using it anyway, so it was one of those things that I didn't want to touch with a ten foot pole. I'll keep your idea in mind for future use!
kedi 05-15-04, 06:27 PM	Originally posted by Boldrift-Mattock Kedi, i been looking at the fight more. on round 3 when i sneak attack, you put me down as 5 + 5 + 1 + 3. I assume the 1 is my point blank, and the 3 is my strength. so, that makes the first 5 my dmage roll, and the second 5 a d6 sneak attack. I should still have 1 more d6, since my sneak attack is 2d6. even if you roll a 1 on the extra die, that puts her at 0, and she wont be able to draw and drink the potion the next round, since she can't take full actions at 0. so my next attack kills her. if im right, then i won this fight, evben if you don't go back and use rapid shot. Aha, *checked the srd* forgot the PBS bonus to damage. (I rolled 3d6 +3 : 5+5+1+3 and now add up one more damage) and about the rapid shot: It's a responsibility to use that ability if you didn't clearly want it. See, you could have missed the attack with 2 points, and that case you'd come and say "I never told yoyu to use RS so why did you?" I stick to tactics, even if not for the gladiators' favour.
Captain Mutilate 05-15-04, 06:29 PM	Just some questions... in the first round when the horse moved right next to me, wouldn't I get an AoO on it? The same goes for any time it moved after me to attack... It might not have affected it much, but I had to ask - because if I managed to kill the horse, then I might not have taken as much damage...
MotherBast 05-15-04, 08:28 PM	So, you forgot the PBS damage? Then BM won, as twice his foe was at 1 HP. If the PBS damage had been counted, he would have won. I belive this match is his.
Limit 05-15-04, 08:58 PM	Originally posted by Captain Mutilate Just some questions... in the first round when the horse moved right next to me, wouldn't I get an AoO on it? The same goes for any time it moved after me to attack... It might not have affected it much, but I had to ask - because if I managed to kill the horse, then I might not have taken as much damage... When the horse moved to attack you, it moved to the first square from which it could attack you. Since you are a medium creature, you only threaten five feet. Moving from your ten to your five doesn't provoke an AoO Example: oooooooooo ooooooooHH ooooooooHH ooooYooooo oooooooooo Horse moves to: oooooooooo oooooHHooo oooooHHooo ooooYooooo oooooooooo
Jindl 05-16-04, 09:15 AM	@Magagumo, Beldin, and Ethendril - We are still waiting for the results of Dusk vs Aemon. Based on Beldin's post about the missing damage from his grapple check in Rnd 9, it seems pretty clear that Beldin won the fight. Is this the end result? @Kedi, Boldrift-Mattock, TaggIIV - Based on the missing point blank shot damage from BM, it seems pretty clear that Tanya was reduced to 0 hps during the fight, before she cast sleep (casting sleep is a full-round action that 1. she cannot take when staggered, and 2. would reduce her to -1 hps if she tried to do it as two standard actions). So it seems clear that BM won the fight. Is this the end result? Since both pitlords in these fights have already attempted to fix the errors, I assume you would want to finish your corrections by fixing these mistakes and declaring the end result. In both cases the outcome changes. Please finish this, so that we can update the Roster correctly. Thanks! -Jindl
Magagumo 05-16-04, 02:02 PM	@ Jindl That si correct, Aemon did win, I will change that result right this minute (slipped my mind ^_~;;) Also, my half-ginatess is almost legal :-P. If/When (judging from the poll) Psionics are approved, she and my elan should prove interesting tests for our MOds, and will help us decipher the ins and out of Psionics. One note to Snark- Best not to compare psions to wizards, good chap, despite the INT-based saves, they are far more like sorcerors with their ability to cast multiple times. Check it out, the 2nd lvl wizard specialist can cast 5 Magic MIssiles with an Int of 20 and all slots dedicated to that spell. That's a total of 5d4+5 over 5 rounds at 120'. Your psion is closer range, but he can pull off 11 castings on an unaugmented 1st level power. I like how Psions work now, they almost seem like a wizard/sorceror blend, with a good number of powers known, combined with the ability for multiple castings or one or two major augementations. In the end, I think they're just different :)
Tellish_of_Ket 05-16-04, 05:07 PM	Originally posted by Kazzaroth Pan'theon Nice story, too bad that I losted tough. But if the issue about trapping is decided before next wednesday, can you re-do the match and this time add the traps? Also is not mounting off the horse (in my threatened square) counted as action wich provokes a AoO (and can you charge from a horse and then issue a grapple)? I'd have to say no about the re-run if traps are allowed. Even if they are allowed, which in likely hood wouldn't be decided that quickly, it's extremely doubtful they'd be allowed as a pre-buff before the fight commences. Just my opinion though. On the point about dismounting creating an AoO, i don't have to dismount to grab you to start a grapple. I think Kaigan did that part wrong, but doesn't matter anyhow. When "moving into your opponents square" as part of the grapple, i do not invoke any AoO from the person i'm grappling, only those around him. Since you didn't have any pets of your own, that means i'm in the clear on that one. Issuing the command for the horse to attack while i'm grappling isn't any different then when i'm standing beside him. I'm just coaxing and ordering it to attack. It doesn't provoke. Hope this helps. I admire your courage in accepting my challenge. You are a brave soul and wish you future success. -ToK
Kaigan 05-16-04, 05:08 PM	Kassaroth: Also is not mounting off the horse (in my threatened square) counted as action wich provokes a AoO You do not get the AoO because you wanted to start with your bow out. So no AoO when he dismounted. (and can you charge from a horse and then issue a grapple)? He did not charge. His horse single moved toward you, quick dismounted and then grappled. The quick dismount is a free action and the grapple is the attack action. But if the issue about trapping is decided before next wednesday, can you re-do the match and this time add the traps? Well trapping can occur, but not as a pre-buff, from what i'm reading. But if somehow trapping does become a pre-buff, which i don't think it will, then yes i will do a re-match. But only if.
Mercy 05-16-04, 05:21 PM	@Kaigan - Regarding the Kaigan vs. Brock fight 1) When grappling you need to make opposed grapple rolls and win in order to damage your opponent. 2) I'm not sure the flanking bonus for the horse would apply in round 5. Is a grappling opponent consider threatening his opponent? Nice fight
Kaigan 05-16-04, 05:37 PM	@Mercy: I'll make the opposed grapple rolls for damage. I think the horse does get flanking.
Beldin 05-16-04, 05:41 PM	round 3: brock started a grapple with a grapple check, not a touch attack (+15 instead of +7). The touch would have missed grapple rounds: you added the +4 to grapple of the enlarge potion to Brocks rolls, but he never used it.
Boldrift-Mattock 05-16-04, 07:00 PM	So do I update my char?
Limit 05-16-04, 07:18 PM	Zorander vs Peter concern: I know there are places where the augmented monsters are missing their +4 strength bonus. I tried to find them all, but I may have missed some. I'd highly recommend including the statistics for augmented, fiendish monsters on your character sheet. Atleast the ones you typically cast, etc.
Caterane 05-16-04, 07:22 PM	One thing I noticed is that Spiritual weapons - as a force effect - are not subject to incorporal miss chances.
Magagumo 05-16-04, 07:48 PM	Hmm, looked well run Limit. Other notes is that you can't crit undead, and that they die at 0 :). NO big, obviously. Oh yes, and you don't make oppossed Tumble checks, you just have to make a single check with the DC increasing by 2 for each additional creature you tumble past. Less checks for Mod, but harder to do for player. :) Edit: Also, when Spit atatcks, he deals damage for the standard grapple check, but he also deals damage each round when Zorander is bening grappled *Shrug* just kills "the archer" faster :) Also, I'm not sure I understand Spit's readied action.. (also not sure if a Int 3 creature can do that, but I suppose its possible) Well, I'm pleased I lasted as long as I did. And that was a good idea to use Spiritual Weapon, barrel_master, it kept Umbra from poaching all the summons (if he had drained the snakes, ZOrander would not have been grappled). Ah well, the boy works well enough, I just hope to avoid a summoner next time :-D. If Psionics are approved, I'll likely hold Zorander for now so that Tori, Overna, and the giantess can take turns (2 fights for no cred loss ;))
Kaigan 05-16-04, 08:04 PM	Originally posted by Beldin round 3: brock started a grapple with a grapple check, not a touch attack (+15 instead of +7). The touch would have missed grapple rounds: you added the +4 to grapple of the enlarge potion to Brocks rolls, but he never used it. Thank you for catching those. The fight did not change. Only that the drow used another potion. yeah the +4 i just put in by mistake. For some reason Brock wanted the potion of enlarge out, but he never stated when to use it. So i fixed it all. Hope there are no more little mistakes. And thanks again for catching that.
Tellish_of_Ket 05-16-04, 10:36 PM	Actually Kaigan my tactics do say when to use it. I wanted to use it when i got into the grapple, and after the horse had his full attack. It's there in my tactics. That way if the horse kills Kaz first, it saves me from using it. And it's not plus +4 when using an enlarge potion it's +5. +4 size, +1 str, that totals +5. -ToK
MysticMonk2005 05-17-04, 12:32 AM	How could Irwin of gotten close enough to propt an AoO? I specificly said to keep at max distance at whatever penalty, I also said to keep pillars and rocks inbetween to prevent him from getting that close in one charge. :twitch: :twitch: :twitch: :bigeyes: :weep: :tantrum: :banghead: Soooo close again
daemones 05-17-04, 01:26 AM	One problem I noticed in my fight against Pard: Any type of weapon may damage an enchanted weapon, provided it can overcome the hardness. Enchanting a weapon gives it 2 hardness and 10 hp per enhancement bonus. Pg 13 in the 3.5 FAQ. The "can't damage it unless your weapon equals or exceeds" rule was printed erroneously, but is omitted from the errata for some reason, though it is addressed in the FAQ. Edit: And with won initiative and quick-mount, I should have been on him on round one before he had a chance to shoot my mount out from under me.
Kazzaroth Pan'theon 05-17-04, 02:55 AM	Kaigan; If you remember from my tactics that I will counter charge IF I see that dwarf is going to charge me. In the turn when I drunk the barskin, I would had more likely taked my falchion and striked him than trying drink a potion. Tellish_of_Ket; Yes, I accepted your challenge because I ASUME that I can deploy traps into the arena. But then I noticed that I cannot, so figth was meanted in someway or another be losted to me :rolleyes: . I would had hopen at least give hard figth in some way. Damn that I hate horses! People in foot should get extra money while winning a figth where is horse, pet or cohort involved.
Beldin 05-17-04, 03:21 AM	@ToK: if you are enlarged, dont you get the -1 to attack for being a large crature? +4 size +1 str - size?
Jindl 05-17-04, 12:03 PM	Originally posted by Beldin @ToK: if you are enlarged, dont you get the -1 to attack for being a large crature? +4 size +1 str - size? (Looks around for Tellish) - Well, since ToK is out right now, I'll answer: The +4 size bonus replaces the -1 size penalty, based on the wording in the grapple section of the SRD / PHB. This is also true for trip checks, sunder attempts, bull rushes, etc. @Tellish / Market_Share - Something I noticed in the Pale vs Kelek fight: Polymorph does not grant Tremorsense. In fact, it does not grant any special qualities of the new form (so no blindsense, resistance to energies, etc). It does grant type, and everything that goes along with type (so polymorphing into a Plant type does grant immunity to criticals). Personally, I think it one of the stupid-er rules in the polymorph spell. "What? You mean my druid wildshapes into a bat and he can't use blindsense? You mean when my druid wildshapes into a wolf he doesn't get scent? That's so stupid." You get the idea. So, the Remorhaz form would not have given Pale any tremorsense abilities. Not that it mattered as far as the fight goes. -Jindl
Magagumo 05-17-04, 01:00 PM	Hmm, Jindl, I'm not sure you get "plant traits" since those are clearly Special Qualities. I believe you take the form of the treant (becoming able to trample things, smash objects real good, etc.), but you do not become immune to poison, stunning, mind-affecting effects, or critical hits. Shapechange grants you Special Qualities, thus it gives you these traits (and makes turning into a construct, plant, elemental, or undead mighty attractive for those afraid of sneak attack/critical hits). In essence, it is important to remember that Polymorph gives you a creatures shape, not all of its intrinsic physical properties. In the end, you're still man inside a "wolf suit": You can bite, you can trip, you can run, but you're nose isn't going to track people. Only when the 9th level spell turns you, utterly and fully, into the wolf, will you truly "become" the wolf :) In the end, it's no different for plants.
Jindl 05-17-04, 02:22 PM	Originally posted by Magagumo Hmm, Jindl, I'm not sure you get "plant traits" since those are clearly Special Qualities. I believe you take the form of the treant (becoming able to trample things, smash objects real good, etc.), but you do not become immune to poison, stunning, mind-affecting effects, or critical hits. Shapechange grants you Special Qualities, thus it gives you these traits (and makes turning into a construct, plant, elemental, or undead mighty attractive for those afraid of sneak attack/critical hits). In essence, it is important to remember that Polymorph gives you a creatures shape, not all of its intrinsic physical properties. In the end, you're still man inside a "wolf suit": You can bite, you can trip, you can run, but you're nose isn't going to track people. Only when the 9th level spell turns you, utterly and fully, into the wolf, will you truly "become" the wolf :) In the end, it's no different for plants. @Mag - You gain type and type gives you those traits, regardless of whether those traits are listed as distinct Special Qualities in the monster listing. So yes, polymorphing into a plant makes you immune to criticals and poison. Polymorphing into a vermin makes you immune to mind-affecting attacks. Etc. Of course, I am keeping an eye on the WoTC website, as Skip Williams is currently posting a series of articles which should better explain the polymorph spell. -Jindl
Magagumo 05-17-04, 02:40 PM	In all honesty Jindl, I do not see any place in the Polymorph spell description that says you get the traits of the creature. Looking at the MM Glossary, Isee that each type is broken up into Features and Traits Under Traits do we see that plants are immune to poison, sleep, paralysis, polymorph, stunning, and critical hits. But we also see that they gain low-light vision, and we know that polymorph does not grant low-light vision, as it is a Special Qualiity. Flip to Tendriculos (pg. 241), Treant (pg 245) or Shambling Mound (pg 222). Each of them lists plant traits within their Special Qualities section. Now, unless you can provide me a quote from Polymorph that says that you gain the creature's type and traits, I am going to have to conclude that you do not gain these incredibly powerful benefits until you have access to Shapechange. After all, Polymorph states that you do not gain the extraordinary or supernatural special qualities of the creature. And, as we all know, a quality must be extraordinary, spell-like, or supernatural, so Traits must be grouped in with one fo these three and thsu are not granted. I know it's weird to imagine being a treant that isn't immune to crits, but you are only gaining its strength and physical shape with Polymorph- it's only a 4th level spell after all. Also, Vermin have the trait Mindless which requires you to have no intelligence score in order to be immune to mind-influencing effects. Undead or constructs don't have the mindless stipulation, but they're also not avilable through Polymorph.
Tellish_of_Ket 05-17-04, 03:53 PM	After carefull reading and consideration i'm gonna have to agree with Mag on this one. Our (tok/ms) bad on the use of certain qualities. We just thought if it wasn't listed under that specific quality that the polymorphed shape allowed you to use it. Which is why remorhaz was chosen. I will keep that in mind for the future as well. -ToK
Hatzinger 05-17-04, 05:14 PM	@Ethendril Very nice story, Ethendril; many thanks for that. Enjoyed it. Just one little error in the end of the fight: She couldn´t have continued to cast spells once she was grappled. And i think that a creature with 10' reach, flying above another creature with 5' reach, shouldn´t draw attacks? (from the horse, i mean) But i am not sure on this one.
Ethendril 05-17-04, 05:28 PM	Originally posted by Hatzinger @Ethendril Very nice story, Ethendril; many thanks for that. Enjoyed it. Just one little error in the end of the fight: She couldn´t have continued to cast spells once she was grappled. And i think that a creature with 10' reach, flying above another creature with 5' reach, shouldn´t draw attacks? (from the horse, i mean) But i am not sure on this one. Hmmm...You can cast spells in a grapple if you already have the components in hand (she did) and if it has no somatic component (summon swarm does). So you're right, she couldn't cast it, but she lost it due to damage dealt anyway, so no difference. As for the AoO from the horse, you have to move into her square to hold the grapple, so you were on the ground with her. One other note that's not fight-related...I know you've said a lot of times that you don't use the arena to RP, just to test builds...the one downside of not using the arena for role-play is that it's much more difficult to write a story about your characters. If you throw some more RP into your characters, you'll get much more crunchy stories coming out of this, and they'll be about you instead of the other characters.:)
Hatzinger 05-17-04, 06:25 PM	*g*. hint taken.
Battousai2005 05-17-04, 08:09 PM	Originally posted by MysticMonk2005 How could Irwin of gotten close enough to propt an AoO? I specificly said to keep at max distance at whatever penalty, I also said to keep pillars and rocks inbetween to prevent him from getting that close in one charge. :twitch: :twitch: :twitch: :bigeyes: :weep: :tantrum: :banghead: Soooo close again Simple, really. You had to move past him to go much of anywhere since he was in the center, you were on a wall. He has 160 ft move, putting the two of you 5 ft from one another. Your horse, may I remind you, occupies a larger than norm. space. 5 ft to be exact. One problem I noticed in my fight against Pard: Any type of weapon may damage an enchanted weapon, provided it can overcome the hardness. Enchanting a weapon gives it 2 hardness and 10 hp per enhancement bonus. Pg 13 in the 3.5 FAQ. The "can't damage it unless your weapon equals or exceeds" rule was printed erroneously, but is omitted from the errata for some reason, though it is addressed in the FAQ. Edit: And with won initiative and quick-mount, I should have been on him on round one before he had a chance to shoot my mount out from under me. Sorry about the sunder. I was looking in the DMG. I haven't had the time to download the errata as my comp downloads amazingly slow. (5kb/sec or therabout on a bad day.) I realize that you should have reached him first round, but it would not have been all that much different. After your run, he would have backed off or simply point black shotted you. Likely,the outcome would not have changed.
Kaigan 05-17-04, 08:23 PM	@T_O_K: Yes, sorry about not using the potion. I must have skipped over it when reading your tactics. But using it will not change the outcome. @Kazeira: Again, sorry, but even if you attacked him with your falchion, you could not have killed him, even on a critical. So the outcome still would not have changed.
daemones 05-17-04, 09:07 PM	Originally posted by Battousai2005 Sorry about the sunder. I was looking in the DMG. I haven't had the time to download the errata as my comp downloads amazingly slow. (5kb/sec or therabout on a bad day.) I realize that you should have reached him first round, but it would not have been all that much different. After your run, he would have backed off or simply point black shotted you. Likely,the outcome would not have changed. No problem no problem - sorry to sound short; been pressed for time recently, myself, and just now realized that I sounded like a jerk - sorry for that. Thanks for running the fight! I'll have mine up in a couple of hours, most likely.
Arstimis 05-17-04, 09:18 PM	Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket One is only rewarded by the amount of effort one puts into their tactics. <snickers> Jo'Li vs Zaphod done. The fact that this in no way would have had any bearing on the fight whatsoever makes it pretty stupid. I dont understand why anyone needed to send in tactics for the fight. If i wanted a monster fight against a rhino i would have asked for one. That is one reason we should apply the one-use items, and the type like that incredibly overpowered bag rule that says these items should be at 5x cost. I could have had the most detailed and amazing tactics that have ever been imagined, yet there would have been absolutely nothing that could have been done. I mean, really, this arena was created for a purpose, though i wasnt around when it was created, i do know the purpose. It is to test Core builds for campaign. Can anyone please tell me what in the world i learned from the first time i fought Jo'Li. Nothing, because anyone knows that a bear and 4 wolves can work any single meleer. Now, can anyone tell me what the friggen point of having me fight him a second time was? Was it so i can get screwed, and have a bigger desire to retire what has so far proven to be a nearly useless character? oh....and TOK: Please make the fight a bit more clear. Like showing positions, and Hp changes. Also, why did i get the -4 to my attacks? oh..and a fort save only has to be made once by each creature Sorry, im just a bit mad that this is the second time i was paired against Jo'Li, and the second time that i didnt get to fight him. I dont want to test, what i think is a very useless build, but only kept him in because requests of others, against a magic item. I strongly suggest to anyone that they need to get one of those bags, as it is the most powerful item for its price in an Arena. Just pull something out and send it to attack, no need to worry about it anymore. Oh, and Zaphod is getting thrown away unless anyone can give me any reason to actually keep him in Edit: Thanks for your help with him cat, but do you honestly see him going anywhere in a world of wizards
Kazzaroth Pan'theon 05-18-04, 04:16 AM	Originally posted by Kaigan @Kazeira: Again, sorry, but even if you attacked him with your falchion, you could not have killed him, even on a critical. So the outcome still would not have changed. Yes, but I would had then made SOME injury to the wrestling duerga :D.
Caterane 05-18-04, 08:51 AM	@Barrelmaster: There are a couple of major errors in the fight. First of all, Ixidor has the deflect arrows feat which means not a single of Enilias' arrows would´ve hit. The hydra has fast healing 15!! so it wouldn`t suffered any ill effects too. Enilias' sword is not magical which means my DR kicks in -> no damage. Round 10, the eagle was a 0 hp but still moved and even has been riden by Enilias but it should`ve lost a hp as soon as doing anything. That would`ve prevented Ixidor to cast true strike and shoot again = 2 more rounds. Another thing is that Enilias doesn`t know behind which rock I am if I pass my hide/move silently check so he would`ve had a hard time locating me. I also wanted to hide after every shot which didn´t happen later in the fight. These things were all mentioned in my tactics under "Important notes". I can`t do more than tell them to you. I know Ixidor is difficult to run with all the things he has but if you check my tactics I always mention important things. Since I won it didn`t matter but the fight would`ve looked much differently without the things mentioned above. Cat
cellardweller 05-18-04, 09:20 AM	Agree on all points, unfortunately I didn't run that fight :D
Caterane 05-18-04, 09:28 AM	:banghead:
barrel_master 05-18-04, 11:25 AM	Originally posted by Caterane @Barrelmaster: There are a couple of major errors in the fight. First of all, Ixidor has the deflect arrows feat which means not a single of Enilias' arrows would´ve hit. The hydra has fast healing 15!! so it wouldn`t suffered any ill effects too. Enilias' sword is not magical which means my DR kicks in -> no damage. Round 10, the eagle was a 0 hp but still moved and even has been riden by Enilias but it should`ve lost a hp as soon as doing anything. That would`ve prevented Ixidor to cast true strike and shoot again = 2 more rounds. Another thing is that Enilias doesn`t know behind which rock I am if I pass my hide/move silently check so he would`ve had a hard time locating me. I also wanted to hide after every shot which didn´t happen later in the fight. These things were all mentioned in my tactics under "Important notes". I can`t do more than tell them to you. I know Ixidor is difficult to run with all the things he has but if you check my tactics I always mention important things. Since I won it didn`t matter but the fight would`ve looked much differently without the things mentioned above. Cat Yes, you are right about the first one. I realized this when I woke up this morning. You're right about that one too. You can take move actions without damaging yourself at 0hp. From the hide discription in the SRD: If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went. It's the 'others then know... where you went' part that I was following when I said he kinda knew where you were. I counted you as being outside the obsucring mist while not around any rocks in particlular which means that you didn't really have much cover and as such no hide checks. I may certinly be wrong about one of these things. If I am feel free to point them out then laugh.
Magagumo 05-18-04, 12:02 PM	Aye being observed sucks... until Hide in Plain Sight :cool: . Sorry Cat, but I had to make note that you actually can't track people if they have the above skill, they just vanish into the shadows (All this depends on them winning the Hide check of course :))
barrel_master 05-18-04, 12:07 PM	Sorry, about the sword, he was attacking the hydra.
Caterane 05-18-04, 12:14 PM	If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went. One moment. Last week I wrote in my tactics to cast area spells at the rock behind which my foe hides because I see behind which one he went and got shot down. This week I wanted to use this to my advantage but now it`s the other way around. Is this depending on wether it is used for or against me, or is there now a definite rule!? :sad: You can take move actions without damaging yourself at 0hp Excerpt from the PHB, p145: "...but if you perform a standard action, or any other action the DM deems as strenuous, including some free actions such as casting a quickened spell, you take 1 point of damage." The eagle moved, flew actually, carried a rider, and even was used to evade arrows with mounted combat. Now if you want to tell me that this is less strenuous than drinking a potion or casting a quickened spell, you`re identified as Motherbast`s brother. I counted you as being outside the obsucring mist while not around any rocks in particlular which means that you didn't really have much cover and as such no hide checks. Since I said that sniping from behind cover is an important part of my tactic it should`ve been clear that Ixidor goes TO the hydra, and casts obscurring mist there, then goes back to cover and continues sniping.
Magagumo 05-18-04, 12:28 PM	CAt Last week you wanted to do that vs. Zorander! I just mentioned that Zorander specifically avoids this trick due to his Shadowdancer levels. Personally, I still let them hide (and not be known) at that distance. But once they get closer, then it becomes harder to simply step behind things. Each Mod has a slightly different interpretation I guess *shrug*, I just know that Zorander and Ebelin is an entirely different scenario.
Caterane 05-18-04, 12:31 PM	In that case, everyone who is not a shadowdancer can just throw away his hide skill.
Magagumo 05-18-04, 12:47 PM	Don't get yourself worked up over it, Cat, it was a tiny error :). Honestly, the "knows where he is" thing didn't come into play much, and I don't believe most Mods run it that way. And honestly, using your hydra to find you was a smart idea- Ixidor rarely leaves its side, after all. Edit: To my recollection, no one in this arena tries to hide at close range unless they are: A. Invisible, B. Hide in Plain Sight. It used to come up at low levels (Bilo v.s Jindl the first I believe, level 4 or something...), but now everyone uses items. To clarify what I know to be the Arena's rules: Provided one was not being directly observed (which one is not at the start of the fight), you can hide as you please. If one begins to be observed by an opponent (they are fighting you, have moved to see you, etc.) you may not resume hiding unless you employ one of the two above tricks, or you use a Bluff check to throw them off. I read the fight over, and I found a few mistakes, none extremely critical- One, ENilias's AC is 21 base, since padded armor gives +1 to AC (thus the 5% spell failure) and its a +2 armor, mage armor overrides this, so no big deal. However, on the final round, Enilias's AC should have been 18 (base 10+4 mage armor+4shield=18) vs. the hydra, not 8. Of course, the hydra hits him twice and "Ixidor smash," but I thought I should note that his AC was way off there (you didn't have shield or mage armor listed it seems, and a grappled opponent is denied his dex mod, not treated as having a Dex of 0). Also, I gather that Enilias and Lightning were skimming the groudn then? Since it seems they didn't fall far when Lightning was knocked out?
barrel_master 05-18-04, 01:14 PM	Originally posted by Magagumo Don't get yourself worked up over it, Cat, it was a tiny error :). Honestly, the "knows where he is" thing didn't come into play much, and I don't believe most Mods run it that way. And honestly, using your hydra to find you was a smart idea- Ixidor rarely leaves its side, after all. Edit: To my recollection, no one in this arena tries to hide at close range unless they are: A. Invisible, B. Hide in Plain Sight. It used to come up at low levels (Bilo v.s Jindl the first I believe, level 4 or something...), but now everyone uses items. To clarify what I know to be the Arena's rules: Provided one was not being directly observed (which one is not at the start of the fight), you can hide as you please. If one begins to be observed by an opponent (they are fighting you, have moved to see you, etc.) you may not resume hiding unless you employ one of the two above tricks, or you use a Bluff check to throw them off. I read the fight over, and I found a few mistakes, none extremely critical- One, ENilias's AC is 21 base, since padded armor gives +1 to AC (thus the 5% spell failure) and its a +2 armor, mage armor overrides this, so no big deal. However, on the final round, Enilias's AC should have been 18 (base 10+4 mage armor+4shield=18) vs. the hydra, not 8. Of course, the hydra hits him twice and "Ixidor smash," but I thought I should note that his AC was way off there (you didn't have shield or mage armor listed it seems, and a grappled opponent is denied his dex mod, not treated as having a Dex of 0). Also, I gather that Enilias and Lightning were skimming the groudn then? Since it seems they didn't fall far when Lightning was knocked out? Holy ****, you're right about the ac at the end... however I would also -5 from that as I think Enilias is pinned... yes, they were skimming the ground... it was kinda metagaming I admit.
daemones 05-18-04, 01:17 PM	@Mag: Pinned opponents are considered helpless, though, and are treated as having an AC of 0.
daemones 05-18-04, 01:17 PM	@Mag: Pinned opponents are considered helpless, though, and are treated as having a dex of 0.
barrel_master 05-18-04, 01:31 PM	Originally posted by barrel_master Holy ****, you're right about the ac at the end... however I would also -5 from that as I think Enilias is pinned... yes, they were skimming the ground... it was kinda metagaming I admit. The end doesn't change, they still use the same stuff and everything.
Ethendril 05-18-04, 01:33 PM	I wish someone should write a treatise on cover and hiding. I know there's a link in the Gladiators thread to the "hide/spot move silently/listen" post by Moh, but it needs to be more detailed. I have run into more problems with this than almost anything else in my fights (and I usually just use my best judgment, but wish it was more clear). I think this is probably why there aren't more rogues in the arena. I also get confused about cover and eliminating someone's cover. How far to the side does someone have to move before the cover is negated? How can you get full cover? I know this is all in the rules somewhere, but it doesn't seem very clear how we use it around here.
barrel_master 05-18-04, 01:34 PM	Originally posted by daemones @Mag: Pinned opponents are considered helpless, though, and are treated as having a dex of 0. Hummm... I'm not sure about this... although what you are saying does make sense... srd: If You’re Pinned by an Opponent When an opponent has pinned you, you are held immobile (but not helpless) for 1 round. While you’re pinned, you take a –4 penalty to your AC against opponents other than the one pinning you. At your opponent’s option, you may also be unable to speak. On your turn, you can try to escape the pin by making an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. You can make an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check if you want, but this requires a standard action. If you win, you escape the pin, but you’re still grappling.
Jindl 05-18-04, 01:43 PM	@Barrel_master - Enilias shouldn't have been pinned. Ixidor made the touch attack to attempt the grapple, followed by the grapple check to start the grapple. He would have to make another grapple check in order to pin Enilias. This would have to be during the next round, as Ixidor was out of attacks. So Enilias was grappling, but was not pinned, when the hydra killed him. Remember, it takes a seperate grapple check to pin someone who you are currently grappling. @daemones - pinned opponents are not considered helpless. Barrel_master has quoted the rules on what happens when you are pinned. A pinned opponent can still cast spells (as long as they can complete the components), use spell-like abilities, use supernatural abilities, etc. He is not helpless. @Ethendril - I also want to see the arena rules clarified regarding sneaking and using cover. I am opening a discussion on the Elder forum regarding the use of cover in the arena, and I plan to revise the sneaking rules in the FAQ to make them easier to understand. -Jindl
barrel_master 05-18-04, 01:44 PM	Dispite some of my better judgement I redid sections of the fight changed some of the numbers and extended it by 1 round. Nothing else changed they still used the same amount of crap and all that.
barrel_master 05-18-04, 01:48 PM	Originally posted by Jindl @Barrel_master - Enilias shouldn't have been pinned. Ixidor made the touch attack to attempt the grapple, followed by the grapple check to start the grapple. He would have to make another grapple check in order to pin Enilias. This would have to be during the next round, as Ixidor was out of attacks. So Enilias was grappling, but was not pinned, when the hydra killed him. Remember, it takes a seperate grapple check to pin someone who you are currently grappling. -Jindl Hummm... I think you're right about the pin thing... I think I got confused by 'If you succeed, you and your target are now grappling, and you deal damage to the target as if with an unarmed strike. If you lose, you fail to start the grapple. You automatically lose an attempt to hold if the target is two or more size categories larger than you are.' Does that mean that you get an attack or does it mean that you must grapple then deal damage (which may or may not be an attack).
barrel_master 05-18-04, 02:02 PM	Hey, here's a question for all of you about grappling. If say you're using one of your iterative attacks for grappling, does your opponent have to use their iterative attack bonus for the opposing grapple check? What if they don't have an opposing iterative attack bonus? Is there bonus then 0? Is the highest bonus always used for the defender?
Jindl 05-18-04, 02:15 PM	Originally posted by barrel_master Hummm... I think you're right about the pin thing... I think I got confused by 'If you succeed, you and your target are now grappling, and you deal damage to the target as if with an unarmed strike. If you lose, you fail to start the grapple. You automatically lose an attempt to hold if the target is two or more size categories larger than you are.' Does that mean that you get an attack or does it mean that you must grapple then deal damage (which may or may not be an attack). Here's how it goes: "A" makes a touch attack on "B" which may draw an AoO (unless "A" has the improved grapple feat). Note: If there is an AoO, and it hits for damage, then the grapple attempt automatically fails. Also, if "A" was holding a charge for a touch spell (like inflict light wounds) then this touch attack does discharge the spell, and "B" would be affected by the spell as normal. After a successful touch attack, "A" and "B" make an opposed grapple check. If "A" succeeds, then both characters are now grappling and "B" takes damage as if "A" had delivered a normal unarmed strike. After making a successful grapple check, "A" may make additional attacks based upon his BAB. These attacks may be grapple checks (for any of the purposes listed in the grapple section) or they may be attack rolls made with a light weapons, etc. At the end of the round after making a successful grapple check, "A" must move into "B"s space in order to maintain the grapple. This movement does not count against "A"s movement for the round, nor does it draw AoO's. If "A" cannot move into "B"s space, then the hold is not maintained and "A" and "B" are no longer considered to be grappling after the end of the round. I hope this explains it better for you. If you have any additional questions, please let me know. -Jindl
Jindl 05-18-04, 02:18 PM	Originally posted by barrel_master Hey, here's a question for all of you about grappling. If say you're using one of your iterative attacks for grappling, does your opponent have to use their iterative attack bonus for the opposing grapple check? What if they don't have an opposing iterative attack bonus? Is there bonus then 0? Is the highest bonus always used for the defender? The attacker uses their iterative BAB, the defender uses their full BAB. Note, grappling is an attack action, and all modifiers to a normal attack roll apply (such as the penalty for power attack, the morale bonus from bard song, the -2 for flurry, the +1 haste bonus for boots of speed, etc). The only modifier that differs is that the size modifier changes. The defender's grapple check is also an attack roll, and should contain all applicable attack modifiers for the defender. -Jindl
barrel_master 05-18-04, 02:33 PM	I agree on both counts... although I'd like to know where in the phb you see that the defender should be using their full bab on all opposed grapple checks. If not that's okay too.
Jindl 05-18-04, 02:35 PM	Originally posted by barrel_master I agree on both counts... although I'd like to know where in the phb you see that the defender should be using their full bab on all opposed grapple checks. If not that's okay too. The defender always uses their full bonus, just like on a sunder attempt. It is the default setting. -Jindl
daemones 05-18-04, 03:27 PM	@Jindl: I was under the impression that a pinned opponent (rather than simply a grappled opponent) was helpless, but I was mistaken. Instead, they suffer a -4 penalty to their AC and are treated as having a dex of 0. You can't CDG them, but they're easy targets. If You’re Pinned by an Opponent When an opponent has pinned you, you are held immobile (but not helpless) for 1 round. While you’re pinned, you take a –4 penalty to your AC against opponents other than the one pinning you. At your opponent’s option, you may also be unable to speak. A chart a little further up in the SRD notes the AC penalty of -4, as well as the fact that you're considered to have an AC or 0. You can still cast spells and break out of the pin, as you mentioned.
Magagumo 05-18-04, 05:32 PM	Yea, being helpless occurs (thankfuly) only very rarely. After all, once an opponent is helpless, you can CDG them.
Battousai2005 05-18-04, 07:19 PM	Originally posted by daemones A chart a little further up in the SRD notes the AC penalty of -4, as well as the fact that you're considered to have an AC or 0. :confused: :confused: :confused: Whats the point of a -4 to ac when you have an AC of 0?:confused: :confused: :confused:
daemones 05-18-04, 09:59 PM	Originally posted by Battousai2005 :confused: :confused: :confused: Whats the point of a -4 to ac when you have an AC of 0?:confused: :confused: :confused: To add insult to injury, of course. :)
daemones 05-18-04, 10:00 PM	Errr, oops. DEX of 0, not AC. -4 AC plus loss of dex mod plus -5 dex penalty...not -4AC....
Magagumo 05-19-04, 11:57 AM	Aye, it has always amused me that (coup de grace rules as an exception) it is actually possible to miss high AC creatures when they are helpless. Imagine the 2nd level party coming across the sleeping Tarrasque ( F:"Well hey!! look what we have here?? C: You've got to be kidding em, Joe, the thing's the size of a mountain!! F: Yea, but he's asleep... helpless as a newborn kobold *grins*. Hey, Mory *points to rogue* take care of him for us. R: Right Boss!! *walks up to Tarrasque, swings with a +6 attack, rolls a 19, getting a 25 vs a...32 for Dex of 0 and prone* *Clink!!* *Tarrasque's eyes open, beginning to stir* *2nd level party runs :D*
Jindl 05-19-04, 03:05 PM	This thread is now closed. Any additional discussion should be redirected to the Tavern. Thanks! -Jindl