| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| Jindl05-06-04, 11:09 PM | Please post any comments or concerns regarding fights of the week of 5/6/04 below. And remember to BE NICE !! -Jindl |
| Myrridin05-07-04, 07:45 PM | Kedi: Just an update, in 3.5 Ray of Enfeeblement doesn't allow a save. I don't think it made a difference, just a note for the future. |
| cellardweller05-08-04, 02:23 AM | Myrridin, Both Shiaan's and Rhoar's full attacks were missing the armour spike and there were a few reactive listen checks that were absent. Of course none of these made one iota of difference given that Rhoar killed her with a single hit :bigeyes: - just for future reference. Thanks for running the fight. |
| ^Rayne^05-09-04, 03:13 AM | I'm pretty dissappointed in this fight. The last round in particular doesn't sit right with me. Now his enemy is within range and charges/rages at his comrade for trying to trick him. (attack: 17+7+2 vs ac 22, hit; dmg: 7+2+19) First off let me point this out... If Attila did maximum damage in this one round this is how much damage he could actually pull off on a non-critical blow. 2d8 (16 max) + 6Str (+2Rage, + 2Potion, +5Stat - 3RoE Strength at this point would be 22 which is a +6 modifier to damage). All of this adds up to 22 damage if Attila rolled max damage on a non-critical hit. You have Attila hitting for 28 points of damage. The only way this could happen is if Attila were using Power Attack. Even if he traded off all +5 of his BAB to hit for 27 damage (maxed) he still wouldn't hit for 28 damage. On top of that if he used +5 in Power Attack then he wouldn't have even manage to hit Vryk on his attack roll. My PC has 26 hitpoints and AC 22. 22 damage isn't enough to take him to - 2 hitpoints. However you have Attila scoring 28 hitpoints of damage against him. Even if he rolled a 17 on his attack to do the damage he was trying to hit with he would subtract -5 from his total and add +2 Charge, +6Strength +1MW weapon, +1Feat... This would make his attack roll total a 27 and that definitely hits but it doesn't match your math. I am left thinking the +7 was his attack roll and the +17 was meant to be his attack (+5BAB, +2Charge, +1Feat, +1MWweapon, + 6Str) and then somehow you added in his Rage or the Charge again... If this is the case then using Power Attack at all on on a roll of only 7 would miss AC 22. I really am stumped on how you got your numbers for these attacks. I also call into question the damage roll. It seems very unlikely he rolled max on 2d8 but I don't know for sure as I really can't see by your rolls just what happened. If Attila used Power Attack it has to be decided before striking and how much will be taken from his 'to hit' roll. This can't be decided after to see how much extra damage can safely be added and still result in a hit. That is very unfair and it seems to be a factor that is in serious question in this thread. Another problem with this thread at the end where you said the following... Neither character used any materials of any value. What about the Mage Armor Potion and Bull's Strength Potion that Attila used right at the beginning of the game? Obviously this is an error and Attila used two potions. In addition the damage for Attila can't be correct. In the tactics you posted for him he mentions "and attack with option 3"... Are there tactics of his not posted. Today I received two emails from you on one you told me that speed I have posted in my thread was incorrect but as I told you kobolds do move at 30' base speed. The second email I received because you wanted my memorized spell list for which I had to point out that Sorcerers cast there spells spontaneously. After seeing emails like this and then reading the whole final section of the match I'm left believing that not only was this match run poorly but little attention was paid to any details. I am fine with my PC's losing on their own merits but when they lose like this where things were clearly run wrong I am not so happy with the outcome. I really don't trust a rematch being run by barrel_master and I would ask that an Elder please read the thread and check it over and see if they would be willing to rerun this match. I have little faith in the Pitlord who ran this match and in the future I will forfeit matches run by said Pitlord rather than have to see my fight not taken seriously. A few other details I would like to point out... Attila's listed damage for his PC is maxed damage if his PC was raging but that should not be listed as standard damage... It should be listed as 2d8 + 5 (his normal damage modifier). I don't understand where the +65 grapple came from but after looking more closely at Kedi's PC it really should have a Red Violation stamped beside it. barrel_master, the Ray of Enfeeblement does only have 25 foot range as I posted it in my tactics. It was cast from a Caster Level 1 scroll and that means it only goes 25'. Please any Elder who has a chance please look at this fight. I am not satisfied with the way it was run and although it may sound rude to say it so bluntly I really believe this fight should be run by someone else. |
| kedi05-09-04, 03:31 AM | Rayne: I noticed the equipment mistake too, and clearified them in my sheet. Grapple is just a typo error. though, a funny one :) About damage: +11 [+13] MW Dwarven Waraxe 2d8 +7 is the damage normally. Calculate that rage and bull's stegth give +8 str while roe deaels 7 damage. So, my new calculated str is 22 (+6) Using it two-handed, It deals 9 more damage. (two handed weapons deal 1.5 times str modifier) 2d8 +9 with max damage is 27. I see no problem with damage. Attack bonus seems wrong, but I don't think it makes any difference. |
| ^Rayne^05-09-04, 03:42 AM | 2d8 +9 with max damage is 27. Actually 16+9 equals 25 damage kedi not 27. That is if he rolled perfect for the 2d8 part. Also your tactics (or at least the ones we see) never mention using your weapon two-handed. A Pitlord can make guesses about what you intend but he could have just have well decided you were using the weapon one-handed as your tactics didn't say any different. Still that damage number (25) isn't enough to take my PC out and besides that I still have a lot of questions about what exactly is going on with his attack rolls. I have a lot more questions than answers and I also feel like these numbers were just thrown out there instead of actually rolled. I mean besides you doing max damage my PC happens to roll max Strength damage too? Your PC suddenly does just enough damage to kill my PC in one hit even though it isn't possible on a non-critical hit? What gives? I don't like it and I find the whole thing suspect. Kedi you should also know that you are not supposed to modify your PC until after the Elder Pitlords have removed the Wait beside your PC's name in the Gladiator Thread. Doing that before they have removed it can be seen as an automatic disqualification. Although I surely doubt they would do that under the circumstances. |
| MotherBast05-09-04, 08:57 AM | Rayne: While I understand your concerns, it will not be possible to have your fight reassingen to a different pitlord and reran. I think all newer players need to remember. Reruns were stricktly forbiden in the beginning, and while no longer fobiden, they are still highly discouraged. It is not a players right to ask for a rerun. It is the Mod's choice to rerun a fight, and only if he feels it necessary. Rayne, you are well withen your rights to ask for a different Mod in futrue fights, but you steped over the line when you asked for this fight to be rerun by a different Pitlord. The procedure for a rerun is to state your greviences, and allow the pitlord who ran the fight to inspect them and determin if he feels a rerun is necessary. To ask for a rerun is rude. To ask someone else to rerun it is just going to far. Personaly, I will not rerun fights I run. I belive Tellish shares my oppinion. Barrel is not quite that stingent, but he also dosen't support reruns. Still, if it is just a problem of the math being off, that is something that could be easly corrected or explained. Barrel has been with the COCO for a long time, and no one has ever had a problem with the way he runs fights. Give him time, and I am sure he can explain the issues you have with the fight. In the future though, try to remember that it is not your right to ask for a rerun. It is certainly not exceptable to ask for one from a different Mod. All newer players should keep this in mind. |
| Jindl05-09-04, 10:21 AM | Re: Vryk vs Attila - from Kedi's tactics for Attila When near enough to declare a melee attack, rage and attack with option 3. If hits, he’d possibly die (2d8 + 20 damage, aproximately 29 damage. If you'll look on Attila's character sheet (cut/pasted on the fight) you'll see that option 3 is a power attack of -5/+10. This of course clearly shows that the weapon is being used two handed. When power attacking in this method, the damage is 2d8+1.5xSTR+10. At the time of the attack, Attila had a raging, bull's strengthened, enfeebled STR score of 22 (+6). So, his damage should be 2d8+9+10 = 2d8+19. Barrel_master obviously rolled a 7 and a 2 on the 2d8 and then added the +19. Hopefully this explains his damage calculation (which was correct.) As for Attila's attack bonus, it depends upon his STR score. When looking at option 3, you'll see that Attila normally has an attack bonus of +6 when his STR is a 21. So it should be obvious that when his STR is a 22, his attack bonus is one higher = +7. That should explain where Barrel_master got the modifiers on the to hit roll: rolled a 17 +7 attack bonus +2 charging vs AC 22, hits. I see no problems with this fight (other than the "no equipment used" phrase in the post-fight comments). -Jindl |
| barrel_master05-09-04, 01:22 PM | Originally posted by ^Rayne^ I'm pretty dissappointed in this fight. The last round in particular doesn't sit right with me. First off let me point this out... If Attila did maximum damage in this one round this is how much damage he could actually pull off on a non-critical blow. 2d8 (16 max) + 6Str (+2Rage, + 2Potion, +5Stat - 3RoE Strength at this point would be 22 which is a +6 modifier to damage). All of this adds up to 22 damage if Attila rolled max damage on a non-critical hit. You have Attila hitting for 28 points of damage. The only way this could happen is if Attila were using Power Attack. Even if he traded off all +5 of his BAB to hit for 27 damage (maxed) he still wouldn't hit for 28 damage. On top of that if he used +5 in Power Attack then he wouldn't have even manage to hit Vryk on his attack roll. My PC has 26 hitpoints and AC 22. 22 damage isn't enough to take him to - 2 hitpoints. However you have Attila scoring 28 hitpoints of damage against him. Even if he rolled a 17 on his attack to do the damage he was trying to hit with he would subtract -5 from his total and add +2 Charge, +6Strength +1MW weapon, +1Feat... This would make his attack roll total a 27 and that definitely hits but it doesn't match your math. I am left thinking the +7 was his attack roll and the +17 was meant to be his attack (+5BAB, +2Charge, +1Feat, +1MWweapon, + 6Str) and then somehow you added in his Rage or the Charge again... If this is the case then using Power Attack at all on on a roll of only 7 would miss AC 22. I really am stumped on how you got your numbers for these attacks. I also call into question the damage roll. It seems very unlikely he rolled max on 2d8 but I don't know for sure as I really can't see by your rolls just what happened. If Attila used Power Attack it has to be decided before striking and how much will be taken from his 'to hit' roll. This can't be decided after to see how much extra damage can safely be added and still result in a hit. That is very unfair and it seems to be a factor that is in serious question in this thread. Another problem with this thread at the end where you said the following... What about the Mage Armor Potion and Bull's Strength Potion that Attila used right at the beginning of the game? Obviously this is an error and Attila used two potions. In addition the damage for Attila can't be correct. In the tactics you posted for him he mentions "and attack with option 3"... Are there tactics of his not posted. Today I received two emails from you on one you told me that speed I have posted in my thread was incorrect but as I told you kobolds do move at 30' base speed. The second email I received because you wanted my memorized spell list for which I had to point out that Sorcerers cast there spells spontaneously. After seeing emails like this and then reading the whole final section of the match I'm left believing that not only was this match run poorly but little attention was paid to any details. I am fine with my PC's losing on their own merits but when they lose like this where things were clearly run wrong I am not so happy with the outcome. I really don't trust a rematch being run by barrel_master and I would ask that an Elder please read the thread and check it over and see if they would be willing to rerun this match. I have little faith in the Pitlord who ran this match and in the future I will forfeit matches run by said Pitlord rather than have to see my fight not taken seriously. A few other details I would like to point out... Attila's listed damage for his PC is maxed damage if his PC was raging but that should not be listed as standard damage... It should be listed as 2d8 + 5 (his normal damage modifier). I don't understand where the +65 grapple came from but after looking more closely at Kedi's PC it really should have a Red Violation stamped beside it. barrel_master, the Ray of Enfeeblement does only have 25 foot range as I posted it in my tactics. It was cast from a Caster Level 1 scroll and that means it only goes 25'. Please any Elder who has a chance please look at this fight. I am not satisfied with the way it was run and although it may sound rude to say it so bluntly I really believe this fight should be run by someone else. When I woke up this morning I realized that some of the stuff I did was incorrect but I belive that damage is correct as Jindl pointed out. I'm gonna redo some of stuff. (the story was kinda... not complete and doesn't make any dam sense). Yes the range is 25, yes they used stuff that was worth junk. For some reason I had the impression taht I was completely done with the fight... |
| barrel_master05-09-04, 01:32 PM | Originally posted by MotherBast Personaly, I will not rerun fights I run. I belive Tellish shares my oppinion. Barrel is not quite that stingent, but he also dosen't support reruns. Still, if it is just a problem of the math being off, that is something that could be easly corrected or explained. Barrel has been with the COCO for a long time, and no one has ever had a problem with the way he runs fights. Give him time, and I am sure he can explain the issues you have with the fight. Ha ha, thank you for your support Motherblast. Personaly I always thought you were a positive force in COCO but unfortunately, people have had problems with me in the past. I think I made major errors in a few fights before you got here. :) I mean... :( |
| barrel_master05-09-04, 01:52 PM | I'll go though some of the rolls here. First off I showed all the rolls I made... attack: 17+7+2 vs ac 22, hit That means I rolled a 17+7mod+2charge why 7 mod? Option 3 on the dude's sheet states that he'd have a modifier with +8 including his rage... with -7 str from the ray + 4 from the bull's str... the str mod becomes -3 which reduces his attack by 1 thus the +7 mod. As explained earlier the damage is as such... dmg: 7roll+2roll+19mod why 19 mod damage? 10 from -5 power attack + 9 from str (21normal-7ray+4bull's+4rage=22str) As for the re-running of the fight... I decided to re-run it when I woke up this morning, before I even got to my comp and realized this thread existed. Unfortunately you still lost. I'm just now re-adding some story. Although, in Rayne's defence some of the emails I sent him did seem convoluted. The 30 foot thing was actually ment for your opponent he had his run speed listed in his tactics as 120 feet which should not have been the case. As for the +65 yes it's quite large and I noted that in the dudes sheet. I would have re-calculated the grapple if it was neccessary. Yes, it should have been 25 not 30. That was an ass-supmtion (ha ha) on my part. I saw that you were casting a spell and you were second level so I assumed that the range would have been 30... when i woke up this morning I remembered that Attila used stuff and wondered if you did too... I then recalled that you were holding a scroll in your hand and were readying it for your opponnet and as such the caster level was 1. I've redone it with the same rolls (it's up to the mod if they should use the same rolls or not). And unfortunately the outcome sands. This post is already far too long. |
| barrel_master05-09-04, 02:02 PM | Whoh, I just read the rest of your post there and I do take exception to one thing. I do take these matches seriously. That's why I emailed you/PM both of you so many times. As for the fight itself... you weren't sitting next to me when I was running it so really you can't say how much time I spend checking over your chars and going over your fight... I wanted the mechanics to be correct. Yes, I'm quite absent minded and I can be faulted for that though but I do take these matches seriously as if they are not done with at least some care it ruin's peoples fun which is why we're all here. |
| Kaigan05-09-04, 02:50 PM | Just curious about some things: In round 1 and 2 when he readied his spell. I have a 165 ft range with my bow. his is only 100ft +10ft/level so 160ft. He was not in range to cast the spell. And with a readied action you can only ready a standard action, or a move action, or a free action. Only one of these. Also he range with his glaive is only 10ft. In round 4 why didn't my horse just take a 5ft. step and full attack. He is entitled to that. And i miscalculated my damage with the bow it is 1d8 + 3(str) +1enchantment +2favored enemy. And his CDG: you rolled three 10's for that!! geez 1d10-1, 1d10-1, 1d10-1 = 27 dang. Lucky for him. I don't know how the hold person will affect the fight, because as i said above, he was not in range. And my horse may have been able to kill him, with a full attack, in which you made him charge. This may change the outcome. |
| ^Rayne^05-09-04, 03:11 PM | As explained earlier the damage is as such... dmg: 7roll+2roll+19mod why 19 mod damage? 10 from -5 power attack + 9 from str (21normal-7ray+4bull's+4rage=22str) First off how does he get 10 damage from -5 power attack? This isn't a two for one trade off. Last I saw on power attack it is a 1 for 1 trade off, which is more than enough. Just because his weapon has two hit dice of damage doesn't make the Power Attack feat do double damage suddenly. Five damage extra is more than enough to keep my PC standing. Also hitting that hard tells my PC one thing, that Attila has raged. I put in specific tactics for what to do once Vryk discovers that Attila has raged. This could affect the outcome because an exhausted barbarian is a more vulnerable beast. As for my comments about a different Pitlord. While some of you jump down my throat don't forget that I too spend a lot of time on these things. I don't write two line tactics. I spend time on it and when I see all sorts of strange stuff and weird emails and miscalculations you better believe I will feel this match isn't being run properly. Rude for saying how I feel after taking my time to participate and then read a fight that is difficult for me to make heads or tails of? Some of you may think it is rude to ask for a rerun but barrel_master said it best when he stated this... Unlike the other mods, I'm less generous when it comes to re-running fights. ... before I even got to read the fight. I look back at his explanations and I think I made a mistake being really annoyed at 1:30 AM but I'm not sorry for feeling the game was in shakey hands. Barrel_master I owe you an appology and I am sorry. As for participation in these forums... I feel I've angered many here with my short temper. For that I am sorry. I thought this whole idea on these boards was a good one and I enjoy reading the fights. Last week Aiki lost but I loved reading the game and was thrilled with the end result despite loosing because I felt Myrridin did a perfect Pitlord job on this match. I don't mind losing but I want it to be because my PC's lost on their own merits. Not silly goof-ups that won't be corrected. I know I am not well liked around here because I shoot off the hip. If asked privately by the Elders I will leave without saying a word. I don't want to be a dissruption to the good-will here. |
| barrel_master05-09-04, 03:26 PM | Actually it is 2 for 1 with the 3.5 rules... from the SRD power attack discription: Special: If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls. To be honest I don't feel you owe me an apology. And I won't ask you to leave the boards and I understand how you felt that the fight was in 'shakey hands' since I'm a little eccentric with my ways sometimes and I obviously overlooked several things in the fight. I just wanted to make it clear that I DO care about these fights. |
| ^Rayne^05-09-04, 03:36 PM | I was not aware of this change to Power_Attack. I like 3.5 but it seems I am constantly taken off my footing by little rules like the one you just explained to me. I feel pretty dumb going off on you now and I am even more sorry than before about what I wrote late last night. I look at what I wrote and I understand that I jump to skepticism too quickly. I'm even more certain now than ever that perhaps I should be asked to leave. I already read many posts from Elders who are not very happy with me (and this isn't the first time). I don't wish to ruin this place for other people. Barrel_master I am aware that you work harder on these threads than I stated earlier. You have my sincere appology and you do deserve it. As for me, Elders just say the word and the kobolds are gone. I completely understand that I am rude and dissruptive and I will leave if asked. |
| Market_Share05-09-04, 03:46 PM | Originally posted by Kaigan Just curious about some things: In round 1 and 2 when he readied his spell. I have a 165 ft range with my bow. his is only 100ft +10ft/level so 160ft. He was not in range to cast the spell. And with a readied action you can only ready a standard action, or a move action, or a free action. Only one of these. Also he range with his glaive is only 10ft. In round 4 why didn't my horse just take a 5ft. step and full attack. He is entitled to that. And i miscalculated my damage with the bow it is 1d8 + 3(str) +1enchantment +2favored enemy. And his CDG: you rolled three 10's for that!! geez 1d10-1, 1d10-1, 1d10-1 = 27 dang. Lucky for him. I don't know how the hold person will affect the fight, because as i said above, he was not in range. And my horse may have been able to kill him, with a full attack, in which you made him charge. This may change the outcome. The point is kinda moot Kaigan as i should have Held you in round one, walked up and perform several CDG's. That means you wouldn't have hit me the first time, and doubtful even two full attacks from your mount would drop me. As a 6th level caster, i have a range of 100+10'/lvl = 160' for a medium range spell which is what Hold Person is. One thing that was erroneously done was that i can move and cast at the same time while mounted. So getting in range is no problems at all. Good luck and wish you the best in your future combats. You do have a worthy character, but the only errors (the early one) was all in your favor so i don't think the outcome would be any different. SPIKE |
| Kaigan05-09-04, 03:49 PM | @Barrel_master: yes, but you forget that my horse can hit you. 3 times. It can defend me. |
| barrel_master05-09-04, 04:01 PM | Originally posted by Kaigan @Barrel_master: yes, but you forget that my horse can hit you. 3 times. It can defend me. I think you mean @Market_Share: yes, but you forget that my horse can hit you. 3 times. It can defend me. |
| Kaigan05-09-04, 04:03 PM | @Barrel_Master: sorry! |
| Jindl05-09-04, 04:11 PM | Originally posted by ^Rayne^ I don't wish to ruin this place for other people. Barrel_master I am aware that you work harder on these threads than I stated earlier. You have my sincere appology and you do deserve it. As for me, Elders just say the word and the kobolds are gone. I completely understand that I am rude and dissruptive and I will leave if asked. Aw, take it easy. Caterane, MotherBast, and I (to name a few of the Elders) are waaay more obnoxious than you. I hope you hang around and keep playing the kobolds. I also hope you'll give my kobold Rog3/Sor6/AT10 a try. He may fare better than the melee kobolds. PS: The best way to avoid conflict with your pitlord is to wait 24 hours before posting on the Fights of the Week thread. It gives you time to cool off. Another tip, PM your pitlord your questions / errors before posting them in public. :D -Jindl |
| Battousai200505-09-04, 04:13 PM | Originally posted by Kaigan Just curious about some things: In round 1 and 2 when he readied his spell. I have a 165 ft range with my bow. his is only 100ft +10ft/level so 160ft. He was not in range to cast the spell. And with a readied action you can only ready a standard action, or a move action, or a free action. Only one of these. Also he range with his glaive is only 10ft. In round 4 why didn't my horse just take a 5ft. step and full attack. He is entitled to that. And i miscalculated my damage with the bow it is 1d8 + 3(str) +1enchantment +2favored enemy. And his CDG: you rolled three 10's for that!! geez 1d10-1, 1d10-1, 1d10-1 = 27 dang. Lucky for him. I don't know how the hold person will affect the fight, because as i said above, he was not in range. And my horse may have been able to kill him, with a full attack, in which you made him charge. This may change the outcome. 1. He stopped readying his action 2. He still passed his consentration 3. CDG: I thought it was max damage rolled. Rerolling, you still failed your fort save by 3. 4. About the horse. I actually did do the damage before I posted the fight. If it is any consolation, Sven was still alive as your horse missed with a hoof and his bite |
| Jindl05-10-04, 08:21 AM | @Limit - 2 things about the Aemon vs Jo'Li fight: 1. Hide from animals ends as soon as Aemon makes his first attack. Both of the animals know the defend trick and would have raced into melee with Aemon after the hide from animals effect ended (and the lion would have pounced). I'm not sure how much a difference it would make, but there are a few attacks there and a possible grapple (improved grab for the lion) there. 2. Ah, the paradox of invisibility. So, Jo'Li is casting a spell that qualifies as an "attack". Aemon sees him become visible and fires at him, disrupting the spell. But now the attack that ends the invisibility never occurs, because the spell was lost. So Jo'Li never attacked and remains invisible. See the paradox? The solution is that invisibility doesn't end until after the attack occurs and that a readied action isn't triggered until you can sense the triggering condition. So a readied action to shoot wouldn't occur until after the spell was cast and the invisibility ended. Of course, if Aemon had pinpointed with a listen check, he could attempt to disrupt spellcasting by shooting at the invisible Jo'Li. I hope this makes sense, but if it doesn't, feel free to PM me about it. It's up to you if you feel like addressing these issues. I'm aware that you have a much more time consuming fight to run between Ebelin and Candy. But if its not too much trouble, could you take another look at the two issues above? -Jindl |
| Magagumo05-10-04, 10:59 AM | Speaking of obnoxious MODs, I'm baaaccckkk!! :D *yawns* Cousin graduated from college and got commissioned as 2nd lieutenant in the Marines. Now to say the things that cranky boards and a need to leave prevented me from ding so last week: @Druid You ran a good fight, and i understand the academic troubles. Glad we even cleared it up with that Bless thing, though I'll only suggest that charging is not always necessary, and likely hurt Tori in this match. I'll mention if I don't want charging in the future. :) @Cat Good job on both wins last week, sir. I can't say I didn't have fun sculpting up tactics against you, and I found the Toreilison v. Ixidor fight (despite its repeated outcome) to be intense and worth the effort of developing tactics- Your angel is a beast :). Ebelin looks to still have staying power, and Tori has provided me with a few new ways for a win (ah blitzkrieg). And of course, one arrow Zorander still has a place in my heart :) Glad to be back, I hope to enjoy our fights this week :) |
| Limit05-10-04, 01:39 PM | Originally posted by Jindl @Limit - 2 things about the Aemon vs Jo'Li fight: 1. Hide from animals ends as soon as Aemon makes his first attack. Both of the animals know the defend trick and would have raced into melee with Aemon after the hide from animals effect ended (and the lion would have pounced). I'm not sure how much a difference it would make, but there are a few attacks there and a possible grapple (improved grab for the lion) there. 2. Ah, the paradox of invisibility. So, Jo'Li is casting a spell that qualifies as an "attack". Aemon sees him become visible and fires at him, disrupting the spell. But now the attack that ends the invisibility never occurs, because the spell was lost. So Jo'Li never attacked and remains invisible. See the paradox? The solution is that invisibility doesn't end until after the attack occurs and that a readied action isn't triggered until you can sense the triggering condition. So a readied action to shoot wouldn't occur until after the spell was cast and the invisibility ended. Of course, if Aemon had pinpointed with a listen check, he could attempt to disrupt spellcasting by shooting at the invisible Jo'Li. I hope this makes sense, but if it doesn't, feel free to PM me about it. It's up to you if you feel like addressing these issues. I'm aware that you have a much more time consuming fight to run between Ebelin and Candy. But if its not too much trouble, could you take another look at the two issues above? -Jindl Concern 1: This was my mistake. I misread the spell as "it wears off when Aemon attacks any animal" as opposed to "attacks any creature". However, it wouldn't have made a difference in my opinion. They were only about 30 feet from starting position "A", so Aemon's horse would have been closed enough to charge Jo'Li. Jo'Li's pets were still near position B, so the lion and horse would have had to run/double move to get there. So it would have been: Round 10 Aemon's horse moves and attacks Jo'Li (This attack doesn't have enough damage to kill Jo'Li, 1d6+4) Jo'Li's pets double move/run. Round 11 Aemon's horse full attacks (This could have killed Jo'Li before Aemon did) Concern 2: Invisibility. Assuming that the spell was completed before the invisibility wore off, I rolled a will save for Aemon's bow: 18 (14 +4) VS DC 15, Saved! The bow was not warped and Aemon fired after Jo'Li finished casting it. --- I'm going to leave the fight as it is now, as I believe neither scenario would have resulted in a different result. |
| Jindl05-10-04, 03:48 PM | @Ethendril - It is not possible to disrupt the use of Wild Shape with damage. Wild Shape is a supernatural ability. This means that it does not draw an AoO when used in a threatened area. According to the concentration skill, if an action wouln't normally provoke an attack of opportunity, you need not make a concentration check to avoid being distracted. But, since this error was against the winner, I don't think it had any real effect on the outcome. I didn't see any other problems (beyond what Myrridin has written below). -Jindl |
| Myrridin05-10-04, 03:48 PM | This is the only error I saw: "Enilias takes a 5-foot step and attacks with his bow [3+14=17 vs. AC 20, miss, 20!, critical threat, 6+14=20, not confirmed, 8+9=17, miss] for [4+5+2=11] 11 damage." So the first attack misses, ok. The second attack is a natural 20, which is a crit threat. If the AC of Dra'Kel is 20, then the 6+14=20, does confirm the crit, and it means that Enilias wins. That's how I read that string, if it's not how it actually rolled out, then I'm sorry. But as it stands, Enilias would have won, since the Str damage gets tripled. That said, awesome story! :) |
| Ethendril05-10-04, 04:19 PM | Thanks, Jindl...I actually thought about the concentration check on shape change while I was running the fight, and whether he would need one. I read the description of shape change and decided that it would require one because it said it was like polymorph. NOTE TO SELF: It doesn't require a concentration check. @Myrridin: Thanks for catching that. I am not sure what happened there, but I know that the critical was not confirmed against AC 20. I think I must have made a typo, because as that full attack was coming out, I thought Dra'kel was totally dead, especially when the critical threat came out. I was ready to wrap the fight up, but then it didn't confirm. I believe it was a 5, I typed 6, then added it up without thinking of the number I was hitting. I'll edit the fight now. I actually thought my story worked out better with Enilias winning because there would not be four druids for the ritual, but the dice said otherwise. EDIT: Actually, with the error Jindl pointed out, Dra'kel would have been able to use that flame strike the round previously, killing him then, so Elinias actually wouldn't have been alive to fire that shot, even if it was a critical. |
| Arstimis05-10-04, 05:14 PM | Just one thing that confused me from the fight..it is bolded ROUND 6 Enilias attacks with his bow [15+14=29 vs. AC 20 (10+2 dex, +1 size, +1 natural armor, +6 wisdom), hit, 3+14=17 vs. AC 20, miss, and 4+9=13 vs. AC 20, miss]. Damage is [1+5+4=10] 10 damage. Dusty flies down to attack Enilias [1!, miss]. Dra’kel shape changes into an eagle, healing 9 hp. Dra’kel: 14/89, bear’s endurance [ends round 80] Dusty: 33/45 Enilias: 45/50 Lightning: -7/26 how did that happen....wasnt he an eagle already? EDIT: I also noticed in the last round it doesnt look like Enilias got a reflex save vs Flame Strike. he has a 50% chance to pass it |
| Ethendril05-10-04, 05:29 PM | Originally posted by Arstimis Just one thing that confused me from the fight..it is bolded how did that happen....wasnt he an eagle already? EDIT: I also noticed in the last round it doesnt look like Enilias got a reflex save vs Flame Strike. he has a 50% chance to pass it Yes, he was. He just assumed the same form he was already in. MB stated to assume the same form in his tactics (I assume this is valid?), but I guess he could have assumed a different flying form. He plays the druid, so I assume it works. Maybe some of the arena druids have some comment on that... |
| Arstimis05-10-04, 05:36 PM | Originally posted by Ethendril Yes, he was. He just assumed the same form he was already in. MB stated to assume the same form in his tactics (I assume this is valid?), but I guess he could have assumed a different flying form. He plays the druid, so I assume it works. Maybe some of the arena druids have some comment on that... Oh...i didnt read his tactics, but i didnt know that he wanted to do this. I dont know..but i dont see how it could be valid. It doesnt make since that you can shapechange into something you already are, and gain HP. |
| Magagumo05-10-04, 05:37 PM | 2 Things to comemnt on: I believe you must return to your natural form (as a standard action) before shaping into a new form. 2. There was no Rex save given on the Flame Strike in the final round. I might have missed it, but as Enilias has an excellent Rex, isn't it possible he could make the save and survive? |
| Ethendril05-10-04, 05:48 PM | I don't know what to say about the wildshape stuff...it sounded strange to assume the same form, but I couldn't find anything to say he couldn't. As for the reflex save (thanks for pointing that out, Arstimis), I did roll a reflex save for him (I take notes, then type it up when I write the story), which I see I left out. He rolled a [7+10=17 vs. DC 20], which failed. Anyway, what input on the wildshaping into the same form, arena druids? |
| Arstimis05-10-04, 05:53 PM | Well..could you answer me how they gain HP when the wildshape? isnt it from a change in constitution. so if they wildshaped into the same thing, wouldnt they keep the same. or am i missing something? |
| Ethendril05-10-04, 06:01 PM | Originally posted by Arstimis Well..could you answer me how they gain HP when the wildshape? isnt it from a change in constitution. so if they wildshaped into the same thing, wouldnt they keep the same. or am i missing something? Wildshape works just like polymorph except as noted in the description for wildshape, so he regains hit points just like he would with polymorph. I understand that part, but wasn't sure if he could assume the same form he was already in... |
| MotherBast05-10-04, 06:02 PM | The wildshape ability restores HP "as if the character had rested for a day" when it is used. Thats how it restores HP. If Mag is right about the need to return to human form between wildshapes then the tactic is not valid. I don't remember reading that, but it could be in there somewhere. If it isen't though, then nothing stops a druid from wildshaping from one form of animal to the same form of animal, an eagle with slightly different plumage even? |
| Jindl05-10-04, 06:31 PM | You do not have to return to your normal form before wildshaping again. It works like polymorph. A wizard could polymorph into an Annis hag (happens all the time, right?) Then cast polymorph again to turn into a dire wolf. This is perfectly legal (as long as the first form can complete the components to cast polymorph). A druid doesn't have to complete any components to use wild shape. It is a supernatural ability due to class levels. The polymorph spell says that supernatural abilities are lost, except for those granted by class levels. So a druid in animal form retains his ability to wildshape. He can turn directly into another animal. There is no restriction on wildshape or polymorph or alter self to prevent one from turning into the same creature. Indeed it is a good use of alter self for disguise purposes. So a druid in eagle form can wildshape again into eagle form just for the healing benefit. Does that make sense to everyone? -Jindl |
| Ethendril05-10-04, 07:10 PM | @ Beldin: It's not like a totally made up new tactics. Please read his tactics. All I did was skip buffing with resist fire, and he had already been hit with the two fireball scrolls. The next step I took was the next one MB wanted me to, which was cast flamestrike as he moved toward him, then to warp wood. I don't think that it's unfair to impute some degree of intelligence to gladiators, especially if it appears tactics are breaking down. There have been far greater divergences from tactics in the past. |
| MotherBast05-10-04, 07:57 PM | Your right Eth. teh resist fire was for the scrolls, which he had already cast. So Casting flamestike and moving into range was the next step in my tactics anyway. |
| barrel_master05-10-04, 08:39 PM | Concerning peter's fight I was just wondering why note 8 was overlooked. I'm just concerned as, quite frankly, it may have been a failure on my part to communicate my thoughts properly... any advice on making one's tactics more clear would be welcome. |
| Battousai200505-10-04, 10:21 PM | My Gosh, I can't believe my luck in that fight. If there are any errors, please tell me before I get Kage ready for this week. The fact that I won leads me to believe so. Oh, Arti, I did take the -4 on double move, but then again, I wanted to. Since I would hit him anyway, that was OK. |
| Magagumo05-10-04, 11:42 PM | @Cat Question re: Aku vs. Peter- Where is this "advanced cover" and improved evasion coming from? Both of these boys launch spells that spread aroudn targets (or descend from the sky) so unless they're using tower shields, I'm unsure how they would eb recieving cover. In Peter's case, ehthe fireball would have to be exploding through a tiny slit in a wall (Aku can just aim the fireball slightly behind him) and in Aku's case, he would have to eb under cover as the flame descended from the sky. Care to clarify? |
| barrel_master05-11-04, 12:35 PM | Originally posted by Magagumo @Cat Question re: Aku vs. Peter- Where is this "advanced cover" and improved evasion coming from? Both of these boys launch spells that spread aroudn targets (or descend from the sky) so unless they're using tower shields, I'm unsure how they would eb recieving cover. In Peter's case, ehthe fireball would have to be exploding through a tiny slit in a wall (Aku can just aim the fireball slightly behind him) and in Aku's case, he would have to eb under cover as the flame descended from the sky. Care to clarify? Wow, you're right, flamestrike does come out of the sky, I totaly didn't know that. But you're definately right about the fireball though... |
| Jindl05-11-04, 12:38 PM | Yeah that is kinda wierd. I also noticed that Aku's fire resistance wasn't taken into account. Maybe Cat will comment on this whole improved evasion stuff. -Jindl |
| Limit05-11-04, 01:00 PM | @Cat - Awesome fight, I appreciate the story and neat explaination of The Voiceless' fumble! One thing to note is that druegar get invisibility and enlarge person as racial, spell like abilities. The caster level is as a wizard twice their own class level. The Voiceless' caster level for enlarge and invisibility was 6, so the duration would have been 60 rounds, but that didn't come in to play anyway :) It does affect "Items Used" though, since The Voiceless didn't use an enlarge potion. |
| Magagumo05-11-04, 01:58 PM | @Snark Call Lightning calls for a rex save, thus it cannot destroy images as it hits all things in the 5' square (namely Heinrich and all of his images). Rem, only by targetting an image is it destroyed, and only targetted effects are affected by mirror image. Two, one cannot use polymorph to turn into a plant, undead, construct, elemental, or outsider. Treant falls under this category, though I'm not sure if this made a huge difference (the call lightning issue is far more important). I'm afraid this could have had a major impact on the fight, my good chum.... |
| Tellish_of_Ket05-11-04, 02:21 PM | Originally posted by Magagumo @Snark Call Lightning calls for a rex save, thus it cannot destroy images as it hits all things in the 5' square (namely Heinrich and all of his images). Rem, only by targetting an image is it destroyed, and only targetted effects are affected by mirror image. Two, one cannot use polymorph to turn into a plant, undead, construct, elemental, or outsider. Treant falls under this category, though I'm not sure if this made a huge difference (the call lightning issue is far more important). I'm afraid this could have had a major impact on the fight, my good chum.... After reading the fight i was about to say the same thing about the call lightning. But Mag, you CAN poly into plant creatures. -ToK |
| Jindl05-11-04, 03:01 PM | Yeah, I think its pretty likely that Corinthius won that fight, because Heinrich would have taken at least half damage from 3 other lightning strikes (and he only had like 12 hps left at the end of the fight anyway). BTW: Aku can polymorph into outsiders, but only because that is his original type. -Jindl |
| Magagumo05-11-04, 08:05 PM | Hmm.. so plants are alright :D. Sorry, no book in front fo me + vague rememberences= same old story ;) @Jindl Aku cannot use polymorph to turn into outsiders. It does function like alter self, except where it is listed otherwise. According to the polymorph spell, one can turn into aberrations, animals, dragons, fey, giants, humanoids, monstrous humanoids, oozes, plants and vermins. Unlike alter self, polymorph does not depend on your own type to determine what types of forms are acceptable. So yea, 5 HD outsiders are good for Aku, but nothing higher than that till Shapechange. |
| SnarkHunter05-11-04, 11:40 PM | @Mag: yeah but Poly reads, "The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following..." So Aku is fine with that. Yeah your right about the mirror image-given that I don't think it would have been cast so he would have been bumped up a round in everything. Def changed things though, I'll re-run but keep all the rolls I can. sorry for lateness of reply. |
| Kaigan05-11-04, 11:44 PM | @Enthendril: I noticed one major mistake that will change the outcome of the fight: The fault is actually mine, but: You added the damage wrong with my bow. It is 1d8 +6 +1d6 shock the +6 is +3 str from mighty, +2 weapon specialization, and +1 for bow enchantment. If added correctly, I would have killed Dra'kel at round 5. Even if he was allowed to polymorph earlier, I still would have killed him. As this changes the outcome, I will leave the decision up to you to fix, or change this. You have the right not to change it of course and I respect that decision. It would also take a while to fix everything. However, if it is possible, I would greatly appreciate if you could look into the damage, and possibly change the fight. Thanks. Kaigan |
| SnarkHunter05-11-04, 11:54 PM | fights updated and the changes indeed affected the outcoume. Sorry all I didn't mean for this to go so late. |
| Druid Roxors05-12-04, 02:30 AM | @ Snarkhunter: Im sorry for not being here and open to the discussion, but I have been very busy and still am. I read the fight and found a serious but common error in the execution of a spell. When Corinthus finishes his Call Lightning spell. Cor finishes gathering the storms and calls down his first bolt (reflex 11+7=18 vs. DC: 18 success, dmg: (5+6+3)/2=7) but Heinrich dodges the worst of it. Shooting a single bolt, the description of the spell reads: Immediately upon completion of the spell, and once per round thereafter, you may call down a 5-foot-wide, 30-foot-long, vertical bolt of lightning that deals 3d6 points of electricity damage. The bolt of lightning flashes down in a vertical stroke at whatever target point you choose within the spell's range (measured from your position at the time). Any creature in the target square or in the path of the bolt is affected.In other words, the moment in which I finish the spell I get a "free" bolt. After that bolt is resolved, I still get my standard action for the turn in which I finished casting, just like any other full round action spell. So, in round 6, just before he used Mirror image, he would have recieved another bolt. Additionally, I had presumed that you would continue to prepare actions to interrupt his spells, but I suppose its ok, since I didn´t specify it. Also, do not forget the fact that the verbal components of spells are not duplicated by the figments in mirror image. That would let me pinpoint to a certain degree which of the copies is the real one. |
| MotherBast05-12-04, 07:17 AM | Actually Kaigan, if I had wildshaped the first time, then I would have gained HP, and flamestriked you the next round. You would have fallen 2 rounds eairler, and my bat would have been biting you instead of fruitlessly attacking your bird. If the wildshape thing haden't been missed, I would have won sooner. |
| Jindl05-12-04, 07:34 AM | @Mercy - Just FYI, when Sanzin casts an empowered magic missile, its a full round action, so he can only take a 5 ft step. It doesn't change the outcome or anything. I just wanted to remind everyone that sorcerors use metamagic as a full-round action. -Jindl |
| Ethendril05-12-04, 12:00 PM | @Kaigan and MotherBast: I recognize that I made errors against both sides in this fight. I also know how frustrating it can be to lose a fight when you think you should have won. I appreciate how both sides in this fight have been very kind in pointing out the errors, and that neither has demanded anything, but rather only requested it. Because the error in the damage calculation was listed on Enilias' character sheet (I could have verified all information, but did not have time to), which I relied upon to run the fight, I am not going to revisit this issue, especially given that Dra'kel was one round behind in his tactics the entire fight because of the failed concentration check on the wildshape. Again, thanks for being understanding and cordial. -Ethendril |
| Mercy05-12-04, 12:40 PM | Originally posted by Jindl @Mercy - Just FYI, when Sanzin casts an empowered magic missile, its a full round action, so he can only take a 5 ft step. It doesn't change the outcome or anything. I just wanted to remind everyone that sorcerors use metamagic as a full-round action. -Jindl Actually, I made a bunch of mistakes. The fireballs Ebelin threw should have been 8d6 x 1.5 each. Also I forgot about the Greater Invisibility of Sanzin. The missing damage from Ebelin's fireballs would have totally altered the fight and very likely, in my opinion, changed the outcome. Sanzin would have been dead before he could do any damage to Ebelin. If anybody want's me re-do the fight (I'm up for it), but it will take a while for me to change it and I'd likely wouldn't get it re-done and re-posted until tomorrow (24 hours from this post-time) |
| Druid Roxors05-12-04, 12:45 PM | Originally posted by Ethendril Because the error in the damage calculation was listed on Enilias' character sheet (I could have verified all information, but did not have time to), which I relied upon to run the fight, I am not going to revisit this issue, especially given that Dra'kel was one round behind in his tactics the entire fight because of the failed concentration check on the wildshape. -Ethendril Just so you know, Wildshape cannot be disrupted. It is a supernatural ability that happens to work like a spell but is not subject to interruption/dispel/countermagic Supernatural Abilities: These abilities cannot be disrupted in combat, as spells can, and they generally do not provoke attacks of opportunity. Supernatural abilities are not subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or to being dispelled by dispel magic, and do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated. |
| Druid Roxors05-12-04, 12:48 PM | You might be thinking of Spell Like abilities tho. Wildshape isn't one of them. |
| Ethendril05-12-04, 12:52 PM | Originally posted by Druid Roxors You might be thinking of Spell Like abilities tho. Wildshape isn't one of them. That's what I meant as far as having an error against MB. I allowed Enilias to interrupt the wildshape, which I shouldn't have done. |
| Druid Roxors05-12-04, 12:54 PM | Oops. Im outside of the conversation. |
| Jindl05-12-04, 01:01 PM | Originally posted by Mercy Actually, I made a bunch of mistakes. The fireballs Ebelin threw should have been 8d6 x 1.5 each. Also I forgot about the Greater Invisibility of Sanzin. The missing damage from Ebelin's fireballs would have totally altered the fight and very likely, in my opinion, changed the outcome. Sanzin would have been dead before he could do any damage to Ebelin. If anybody want's me re-do the fight (I'm up for it), but it will take a while for me to change it and I'd likely wouldn't get it re-done and re-posted until tomorrow (24 hours from this post-time) Actually, Sanzin would have taken an extra 2d6x1.5 from the first fireball and 2d6x1.5x0.5 for the second (he saved). As long as he doesn't drop below -10 before Candy uses bear's endurance on him, then the fight stays the same (as bear's makes him conscious again and allows him to continue with his MM attack). Also, in round 5, I think that Cat wanted Ebelin to cast shield if he was getting pounded by magic missiles. Of course Candy was readied to counterspell it, so who knows? Anyway, I would probably leave the fight the way it is, both because it is Wednesday already and because both players seem okay with it. -Jindl |
| Kaigan05-12-04, 01:15 PM | @Ethendril: Actually, you ran the fight right. I mistook Enilias's bow as +3 str It is really +2 So you were right Sorry for the inconvenience. |
| Arstimis05-12-04, 01:17 PM | Kaigan beat me to it |
| Ethendril05-12-04, 01:18 PM | Originally posted by Kaigan @Ethendril: Actually, you ran the fight right. I mistook Enilias's bow as +3 str It is really +2 So you were right Sorry for the inconvenience. It's no inconvenience, especially when you ask so nicely. Enilias is very tough, and I really thought he had that fight wrapped up. I'd love to run him another time. |
| Magagumo05-12-04, 01:54 PM | Cursed Fine Print :D!! *Sighs* They really should bold those critical statements ;). Ironically, the Wizard Main Page is now reviewing the rules of Polymorph.... (Neat that the demon/devil can mimic a celestial if they have the polymorph spell *whistles innocently*) |
| Jindl05-13-04, 10:48 AM | This thread is closed. Additional discussion should be re-directed to the Tavern. -Jindl |