| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| Sindorin02-15-06, 01:42 PM | This is the thread to discuss this week's fights. Usual rules apply (play nice or else...). The rules of Gladius can be found here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=448520). The deadline is somewhere in the near future, I'd say you have about 3 hours left to edit sheets, give or take one hour. Do remember that this week the tactics are due at a more specific time than before, and not having these in will result in the forfeit of your only character that you were able to activate for free, now wouldn't that be a drag. Do remember that this is a state of emergency that we are in. We need to help each other along here, if you feel that you can take a fight that someone must give up, speak up for the good of the CoCo. That's all, folks. Have fun! |
| Macbrea02-15-06, 01:57 PM | Hmm, 42 pitlords worth of fights. Gonna check how many people are listed as active for this week! |
| MindWandererB02-15-06, 02:00 PM | Two hours left. I'm going to be pitlording for the first time this week, so bear with me and feel free to point out any and all errors--I have a lot of "book knowledge" about D&D but a lot less actual experience than I'd like. Please pick it apart, even if it's petty stuff, it'll help me learn. But please be nice about it! That said: @ My gladiators, whoever they may be: I will be running the fight promptly at the deadline for tactics, if I don't have them sooner. I will have the setup done before then (but probably offline), and the first character takes their first action no later than Friday 2100 GMT. Sorry, but I'm working with the time I have. Tactics sent sooner would be appreciated, if you can manage it. |
| Macbrea02-15-06, 02:11 PM | League 3 (60 gladiators - 25 set to ready) 13 fights League 4 (38 gladiators - 13 set to ready) 7 fights League 5 (31 gladiators - 10 set to ready) 5 fights League 6 (24 gladiators - 8 set to ready) 4 fights League 7 (17 gladiators - 2 set to ready) 1 fight League 8 (17 gladiators - 6 set to ready) 3 fights League 9 (7 gladiators - 3 set to ready) 2 fights Total 35 fights That doesn't include any of the quests or miniquests. |
| NiQil02-15-06, 02:13 PM | Since I am not playing in a TT game this weekend, I have also decided to pick up 2 fights....it's been awhile, so I will probably be rusty and make several errors. As MindWandererB stated....with the new tactics deadline, whoever has fighters assigned to me needs to make sure and get tactics in promptly...as some that have been here long enough to remember me running in the past, I am a stickler for deadlines, and I would rather not surrender fights if I don't have to. |
| Macbrea02-15-06, 02:15 PM | I am sure those numbers will change toward more fights as we get close to stop edit time. |
| waywreth02-15-06, 02:21 PM | Pitlording one fight here as well (need to see how long it takes to decide if I do this on a regular basis). And FYI - deadline for editing is in about 90 minutes. |
| Gonbow02-15-06, 03:53 PM | Well, I should be up to two fights this week. I have to have something to do since I have no homework this week (or almost none, anyways). So then *cracks his knuckles* Who out of the seven possible opponents will lose to Tatyana this week? ;) |
| MysticMonk200502-15-06, 04:18 PM | so what would be the new deadline? and default tactics are still used before a surrender right? |
| MindWandererB02-15-06, 04:25 PM | so what would be the new deadline? and default tactics are still used before a surrender right?This week we'll make the first and easiest of the proposed changes: - Tactics due Friday 9 PM GMT (or default tactics) - Fights due Tuesday 9 PM GMT (or late penalties) - Quests due Wednesday 9 AM GMT (or late penalties)Yes, default tactics will be used, if they exist. Otherwise, it's surrender or total improvisation, pitlord's discretion. |
| NiQil02-15-06, 04:27 PM | so what would be the new deadline? and default tactics are still used before a surrender right? Cat posted this in the Discussion - Pitlording thread...I'm sure he'll put it into the post he puts up when pairings are done also: Tactics due: Friday, 9 pm GMT Fights due: Tuesday, 9 pm GMT Quests due: Wednesday, 9 am GMT And yes, default tactics are still used before surrendering a character. The order of preference is submitted tactics>default tactics> and then either running the character based on previous tactics or surrender (pitlord option). |
| MysticMonk200502-15-06, 04:34 PM | thanks for the clarification. I'm not in the habit of keeping up with every new thread that pops up right now... |
| lonewolf02-15-06, 04:34 PM | so what would be the new deadline? and default tactics are still used before a surrender right? Deadline is Friday 9PM GMT and Default Tactics have to be used if no tactics are sent. EDIT: Much too slow :embarrass |
| Sindorin02-15-06, 05:59 PM | Yeah, does anyone else have really really slower than usual wizards boards right now? Everything else loads like normal except for the damn wizards boards. *ducks* |
| Pitlords02-15-06, 06:26 PM | Question: Does the writing display bigger than normal on your screen? I've pressed a forbidden secret combination of keys on my keyboard that made all letters bigger :confused: |
| lonewolf02-15-06, 06:32 PM | Question: Does the writing display bigger than normal on your screen? I've pressed a forbidden secret combination of keys on my keyboard that made all letters bigger :confused: No it looks normal. :confused: |
| Ravashack02-15-06, 06:34 PM | Question: Does the writing display bigger than normal on your screen? I've pressed a forbidden secret combination of keys on my keyboard that made all letters bigger :confused: Firefox: Go to the View drop down menu, then go to Text size. IE: Same as Firefox. Other browsers: Dunno, but probably the same. You probably pressed something like CTRL and + or the up arrow key. |
| Pitlords02-15-06, 07:43 PM | PAIRINGS DONE This week we have pitlords for all fights so I paired everyone who was ready just like normal. Still, I'd like to have the state of emergency affect the pairings for some weeks. I'll count the active characters and active pitlords and decide then wether to roll normally or not, depending on the margin. I'll keep multiplayer fights to a minimum for some weeks. There are things that need to be addressed. Note that we have new deadlines! See above or pairings post. Have fun Cat PS: credits tomorow @Rav: Thanks. That worked. |
| Gonbow02-15-06, 07:51 PM | Hmm, so Thwap (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7867468) has been selected to fall before Tatyana (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7118092), eh? I suppose it is the nature of brawn to rampage neigh unopposed, only to be checked by mind. Would you like to surrender, or do you think you can handle this pure caster? All in good fun folks. |
| Book502-15-06, 07:52 PM | What happened to the pairings!?! Yeesh! I'm outa the room for like a week and.. and.. everything goes crazy! State of emergency and everything! Theres like 8 pitfights!?! whoah.... @Pitlords - umm, I think I had Tan set to ready in time.. "2:19" umm, is he getting vetoed? for streamline? Do I have to pay credits to pair anybody now? ... Was the little guy overlooked? He is still wearing his silver suit.... silly vb tags hmmm I prolly should go read this pitlording discussion dealio I imagine. :P |
| Pitlords02-15-06, 07:56 PM | @Book: Look again, Tan is in there. Jonathon (Abyssal Stalker) vs. Tan (Book5) : Shadowmaster |
| Macbrea02-15-06, 08:20 PM | Grik Bladehammer (Snommelp) vs. Unknown Monster : Macbrea [Monster] Ok, information set up for this fight can be found here. All dice rolls have been recorded. |
| Book502-15-06, 08:22 PM | I have this cap. It says "thinking" on it.. get it "thinking cap..." this should give me a +2/3 to intelligence.. aka "search.." but! ... like -5 or something?? bleh.... thanks Cat! :nonono: wait! hey! I looked again and this is weird! I have the characters thread open (loaded maybe half hour ago) and it [u]does not[/i] have Tan listed (only like five pairings actually)... I click on the page number there... and it loads what is obviously the pairings post (a good 20-30 fights). I now reload the character's thread and the whole list is there? Somehow I cought the pairings post in mid editing! wacky! ... yeah "6:28" edited vs "7:47" :D @Shadowmaster - Tactics sent |
| bgt02-15-06, 08:25 PM | Moonwatch http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e55/bgtschool/fullmoon.jpg The moon over Gladius is currently full. The Gladiosian moon mirrors the moon's phases in GMT. Ah, the pairings are up. Feradeth looks easy, no silver to speak of. :evillaugh DTFarstar, consider tactics sent. |
| Macbrea02-15-06, 08:30 PM | Lord Frost's tactics are sent! |
| Sindorin02-15-06, 08:31 PM | Tactics for Va'ria sent to Vathelokai. |
| Sindorin02-15-06, 08:38 PM | @ SauroGrenom and Luni: Please get your tactics in ASAP by PM! I will have time to run your fight, but I would like to get started whenever I can. Thank you. |
| Mal-202-15-06, 08:40 PM | @Gonbow: Donak's tactics for Donak vs Sliver Firebug have been sent via PM. |
| King Uther02-15-06, 08:50 PM | I am running 2 FFA fights this week. Please send tactics promptly as I will ahve the fights run by Sunday afternoon. |
| DTFarstar02-15-06, 09:03 PM | @Kaigan - bgt has sent in his tactics, as I'm sure you know from all the fights you have been running lately the sooner a Pitlord gets tactics, the easier it is for them, so whenever you have time I would appreciate a quick write up of Feradeth's tactics. I must say, at first glance this looks like a bad fight for Feradeth, I am expecting something brilliant from you in the form of winning tactics, Kaigan. Don't dissapoint. Not that I want you to win more than I want bgt to, but I do love me some innovative tactics. Anyway... @Myrridin - I am so excited about your campaign it is pitiable. One question though, will we have time during the campaign to buy things or should I get everything I think I will need before we begin to set out? @All - Good luck with your tactics this week and with your fights. @All - I also want to say I heartily approve of the new deadlines and will be enforcing them very strictly. If you get tactics to me before I run the fight I will use them, but if I start running a fight with default tactics or surrender tactics after the Tactics Deadline has ended then I am sorry, but you had 48 hours to get them in. It should never take that long to write tactics. @All- Good luck to everyone again this week. I am probably going to start auditing sheets for credits and fun, and so expect to get all your violations caught, if I can. *cackle* -Chris |
| King Uther02-15-06, 09:09 PM | @Malither Tactics for Alagar sent. |
| MindWandererB02-15-06, 09:22 PM | @nickbeat: Tactics for Sunstroke against the blasted druid have been sent. @Mal-2: Tactics for Aerryl against my favorite Final Fantasy character have been sent. @NiQil and lucanthrope: Neither of your characters has default tactics, so be sure to get them in on time, or I make no guarantees about their intelligence! Not that either of you is prone to such failings, just a friendly reminder. And the earlier you get them in, the earlier I can start making a hash of the battle and the more time you have to correct me. :rolleyes: |
| NiQil02-15-06, 09:28 PM | @ Klangley: Tactics for Famine sent via PM @ King Uther: Tactics for War sent via PM @ MindWandererB: Tactics for Death sent via PM @ SauroGrenom & Ribking: I guarantee no holding over of this one...so the sooner I have tactics, the quicker it gets done LOL. |
| Mal-202-15-06, 09:49 PM | @Mal-2: Tactics for Aerryl against my favorite Final Fantasy character have been sent. Recieved |
| lonewolf02-15-06, 09:49 PM | @Warclone: Tactics for Karen sent. @Huan: Tactics for Samuel sent. @DSugui: I will do Finrods tactics tomorrow. |
| Begferdeth02-15-06, 09:56 PM | I think the link to the 'character actions for the week' is aimed wrong... I ended up looking at some random post in another thread. |
| Ravashack02-15-06, 09:59 PM | Perius's tactics sent in to SauroGrenom via Private Message. |
| Ariel2302-15-06, 10:16 PM | AFAICT it's the same as last week. I just hit refresh: http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5179877 @biota Tactics sent @begferdeth third verse, same as the first... |
| Skojar02-15-06, 10:21 PM | Has anyone without maxed-out knowledge skills actually succeeded in a monster fight since the change? How often were monster fights won before that? I just looked a the list for ECL four and I have serious doubts about Tsiuzues standing any sort of chance against any of them. I might consider it a reasonable alternative match if I had perfect knowledge and could devise specific tactics, but with the randomness, a single ECL 4 character vs a CR 4 monster is basically a guaranteed loss (by the numbers.) The monsters are supposed to present a challenge to a party, in which there are four times as many actions available to the PC side. I wouldn't serously expect a single PC to defeat a monster of his ECL-2 if it required the player to guess at what it might be and write tactics ahead of time. The most valuable resource in the game is actions. By reducing the PC actions by 75%, you essentially increase the CR by 4. 1) Look at the table on pg 49 of the DMG, and imagine a 1-1 ratio of monsters and PCs. This means for the numbers around which the game was designed, you're looking at the number of creatures=4 column. 2) Scan across to Tsiuzues' ECL (his average party level=4). The table says four CR1 creatures would be a challenge. If you increase the EL by even one or two you 'might tax the PCs to their limit," (which is a reasonable standard for an arena fight). 3) If we increase the APL for Tsiuzues by 2, then, we see that he should be up against a CR 2 creature. By the numbers of the game, a CR 4 monster is appropriate to 'tax the limits' of a single ECL 6 character. I understand that arena fights are supposed to be difficult, but facing a PC character of your level, with perfect knowledge of thier strengths and weaknesses is something wholly different that facing a monster with all their special abilities, especially when you can't know which monster it might be. In the current system, my PC is asked to slay a creature far above his capacity to defeat. If I write tactics for every possible monster from the table, he still is at a significant disadvantage, and will probably lose anyway. If I had perfect knowledge of the monster he was to face, I might bring the odds up a little closer to even (40/60) with a lot of work, but without that knowledge, the odds are more like (5/95). The logical solution is to minimize and simplify my tactics (as there is little chance or re-couping the expense and effort), but the same result would be achieved by simply surrendering outright. When I saw this change in the rules, I simply skimmed it because I assumed that the astronomical increase in difficulty that the Knoweldge requirement would entail woud be offset by an appropriate decrease in the CR of the opponent. It wasn't until now that I see that no such allowance was made. Please explain to me how this was considered a reasonable alternative to a standard arena fight. The heavy investment in knowledges called for by the change serves no purpose but to bring the fight down to a challenge level slightly above par with normal fights. Is the 2% chance that he might actually succeed and get 4x the winning earnings supposed to be incentive enough to get me to slave over thirty sets of tactics? On its face I would say the cost/benefit ratio is way out of whack. If I sould like I'm just complaining, go have a gander at the table in the DMG (pg 79). Take your favorite non-monster character and look at the list in his sub-table. How would your totally tricked out 4th-level fighter stand alone against a 5-headed hydra, with 5 15ft reach attacks and fast healing 15? How would your elite 4th-level specialist wizard stand alone against that hound archon with SR 16, at least +5 to all saves, and 33hp? The fighter, even with a 20 STR, is only going to hit about 75% of the time, and if he doesn't do more than 15 damage each round those hits are wasted. Meanwhile, he's got, what, a 22 AC, which means the hydra will hit about 8.5 hp per round, and remember you have to completely disengage to do any healing because of the reach, which means AoOs or ranged combat (try doing 16+ damage each round from range. Even with a magic composite longbow, that's max damage each round for 50+ rounds. If you fail even one round, add 15 more rounds to the duration). Your wizard is even worse off, because only 40% of 1/3 of his spells are even going to hit, much less do anything past those saves. You might be able to come up with some crazy expendables heavy strategy that would give you some chance, but it would still only be a small chance. You might luck out and get the one encounter for which your character is uniquely suited, but probably not. It's lottery, with a very slim opportunity to win a moderately big prize. (BTW, that big prize only serves to give you an unfair money advantage against your PC opponents for three more fights) I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just don't see how there's a better solution for a character facing and CR=ECL monster than pre-emptive surrender. If anyone can explain it, please do. I love to learn. Without the knowledge requirement, these fights are significantly harder than a normal arena fight...that's good, as they carry a proportionally greater reward. But with the knowledge requirement, they look to be (mathematically) almost impossible. I understand if some people want to play the monster fight lottery, but I'd rather have a fight in which there is some reason for me to work out tactics. |
| MitzaVolchenko02-15-06, 10:35 PM | @Turin Tactics for Zwei sent via PM @Gonbow Considering options for Sliver...I have run Donak before and may have to try to be clever now that he has a hand of glory. @Mal-2 You are gonna owe me props if I pull off a win against you this week ;) @Skojar Sliver won her monster fight last week though I could argue that the reward is less than appealing and that Gricks are not 'large snakes' @Cat your quest waits until tomorrow afternoon my time....had no idea how much reading I needed to do! |
| Zevox02-15-06, 10:43 PM | Cool, I get to pitlord the Bard vs Half-Fiend challenge match :D . That should be a fun match to run (either that or a really painful one, but I'm going to err on the side of optimism for the moment ;) ). @ Snommelp & Kedi - So long as you both have your tactics in by the new deadline I'll be set for the fight. Friday and Saturday are my best chances to run it. @ Nickbeat - Destra's tactics vs Sunstroke should arrive tomorrow afternoon. No time to write them tonight, and I've got class in the morning. Zevox |
| Snommelp02-15-06, 11:00 PM | Cool, I get to pitlord the Bard vs Half-Fiend challenge match :D . That should be a fun match to run (either that or a really painful one, but I'm going to err on the side of optimism for the moment ;) ). @ Snommelp & Kedi - So long as you both have your tactics in by the new deadline I'll be set for the fight. Friday and Saturday are my best chances to run it.I'm working on tactics as we speak. And don't worry, it won't be painful. It will be over too quick to be painful. EDIT: Tactics all sent! None received yet, though. |
| Skojar02-15-06, 11:22 PM | @Skojar Sliver won her monster fight last week though I could argue that the reward is less than appealing and that Gricks are not 'large snakes' I would say that that falls into the category of encounters you're uniquely suited to beat. A pixie is a little different than a PHB race. She gets for free what 'normal' folk have to spend actions and monies on. Gricks are at a severe disadvantage in the dungeon map in a scheduled fight. For it to be a fight, it should have been pitch black, and they should have been laying in wait, hiding in 5ft tunnels to catch her unawares with their +6 advantage on SpotvsHide checks. Two gricks is EL 5 (ECL-1).It's the easiest version of the easiest encounter on the list vs one of the best benefit for LA playable races, benefitting from advantageous conditions. I'd say you just won the lottery. |
| DSugui02-15-06, 11:40 PM | @King Uther: tactics for Dronnar sent by e-mail. @Abyssal Stalker: tactics for Valek sent by PM. This week is gonna be fun... |
| MitzaVolchenko02-15-06, 11:42 PM | I would say that that falls into the category of encounters you're uniquely suited to beat. A pixie is a little different than a PHB race. She gets for free what 'normal' folk have to spend actions and monies on. Gricks are at a severe disadvantage in the dungeon map in a scheduled fight. For it to be a fight, it should have been pitch black, and they should have been laying in wait, hiding in 5ft tunnels to catch her unawares with their +6 advantage on SpotvsHide checks. Two gricks is EL 5 (ECL-1).It's the easiest version of the easiest encounter on the list vs one of the best benefit for LA playable races, benefitting from advantageous conditions. I'd say you just won the lottery. Yeah she gets her stuff for free...a lot of PLing credits worth of free and 6HP's in ECL6 worth of free to be exact. I agree with your point, but that was a little cheap sounding darlin'. Frankly getting stuck with an ECL-1 fight was not to my liking...but what the heck? happens. @Gonbow Tactics for Sliver vs. Donak sent PLEASE send me a PM or an IM if you have questions...for that matter if you want to seperate thread battle this one, I am sure Mal-2 and I can come up with a mutual time to do it. I had to get all kinds of Sliver "Tricky Strumpet" Firebug crazy on this one. |
| shadowmaster02-16-06, 12:53 AM | @klangly, tactics sent @book5, tactics received, |
| MysticMonk200502-16-06, 03:39 AM | ok so what do i need to do as a pitlord for unknown monster fights? @Kedi&Iced: Tactics for Tueor and Lissa sent via PM. |
| Pitlords02-16-06, 04:44 AM | @Skojar: I agree that some fights are very tough, or even impossible for some PCs but then, other monster fights are almost auto-wins. In your hydra/archon example, the fighter could align his weapon to negate the DR and 33 hp is not much for a fighter to beat. The hydra might be beaten by save or lose spells (althuogh you picked the toughest one on that list). Also note that the lvl 4 monster list is by far the toughest one. Compare it to the vipers or small spiders at lvl 3, or the gricks at lvl 5. Up to now, 75% of all monster fights were won, if not more, and the knowledge requirement evens that out. Let's see how the monster fights go before doing the next changes. |
| Pitlords02-16-06, 05:19 AM | Credit Changes: +7: Huan +6: Iced +5: Vathelokai +4: Caterane +3: Myrridin +2: Begferdeth, KingUther, Luni, Nickbeat, NiQil, Sindorin, Stormwind +1: Abyssal Stalker, Ayrynthyn, Biota, DSugui, DTFarstar, Erithmu, Gonbow, Kedi, Klangley, Lonewolf, Lucanthrope, Macbrea, Mal-2, Malakai, Malither, Mitza, Mindwanderer, MysticMonk, Sauro, Shadowmaster, Skojar, Turin, Warclone, Waywreth, Zevox +0: Snowmelp -1: Kaigan -3: Dracazar As always, PM me if you want to know how this breaks down. |
| emeraldstreak02-16-06, 06:48 AM | Why is Almaar paired vs Kendal so often? This is a third time in an almost straight roll. Kind of boring. |
| Macbrea02-16-06, 06:55 AM | And of the two unknown monster fights that I have run since the change over I have had 1 win and 1 lose. The Win: Cher beat 2 swarms The Lose: Rayos crushed by a stone giant Even if the player was given all the information those fights would have probably ended up with the same results. This week may turn out different only because the monster that the player thinks it is isn't true because Spot 1d20-2 vs Disguise 1d20+22. Made it's description alittle wanky. |
| Caterane02-16-06, 07:00 AM | @Mitza: Tactics for the Harvester sent. @Macbrea: Sssshhht! @Emerald: The pairings roller did that. I just dissolved some of the multiplayer fights but otherwise left it as it was. |
| TheMagister02-16-06, 07:13 AM | Houston, we have a problem... There's something majorly wrong with Lonewolf's character Samuel Highground (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7875477) set-up. Well, he's a phrenic halfling ghost. All right, fine. First of all, he was a level 1 wilder when he acquired this template (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=571111), and yet he has the character wealth and experience total of an 8th level character. Evidently, his questlord for the quest in which he acquired his template awarded him something like 29,000 xp and 25,000 gp just for gaining a template. That's not how it works, is it? As far as I remember, your xp total stays the same and you gain xp for like, forever until you finally gain enough to make your next level (in his case he should have needed to move from 4,000 to 36,000 before he can become a level 2 wilder). Those numbers are pulled out of my arse, I don't have my books on me to look at the actual figures, but they should be relatively easy to check on and edit by anyone who cares. Also, I'm almost positive that a character doesn't get wealth by ECL, but by character level. So, Lonewolf's character should have level ONE wealth, even though he has SEVEN levels of template. Finally, he's a GHOST. How does a ghost acquire new (corporeal) items? He lives on the ethereal plane! He can't even physically affect the material plane (for instance, picking up a potion bottle), with the exception being ghost touch weapons and armor. Also, at his point of death (when he acquires the "ghost" template), he only gets to pick 2d4 super-special-to-him items that become ethereal with him. Not his whole equipment roster. How can he use powerstones? Tattoos (he doesn't have any, but it's a valid question that reflects on the powerstone question)? Dorjes? Wands? ANYTHING corporeal? He can't, can he? I just want these questions addressed before I write up tactics to combat this super-powerful character. If the character is legal, more power to ya, Lonewolf. But IMO, there's something seriously amiss here. Nobody gains 26,000 gp on a single quest at 3rd level. (Being sarcastically funny here) What...did the gold just teleport into your ethereal pockets? Did you walk into the Boo-Mart and buy a cloak of charisma +4 for 16,000 ethereal gold coins?(/end funny) It just doesn't make sense to me. TM |
| Macbrea02-16-06, 07:20 AM | @Macbrea: Sssshhht! I have already recieved tactics from the player and they are posted. At this point, I will be running the fight, with those tactics. So, it shouldn't make very much difference if he hunts down what creature it really could have been. Which that is alot of them. |
| Macbrea02-16-06, 07:23 AM | Yes, that amount of gold and exp is correct according to the rules of gladius. As a matter of fact the example is of Anna the halfling (ECL 3; 3500 XP, 3700 gp) becoming a ghost and ending with (Anna ends up with 33,000 XP and 32,000 gold) after the quest. Acquired Templates (These can be taken at any point during the character's career) Acquired Templates - unless taken at character creation - require a roleplaying component to be fulfilled. This is always a Standard 3-week Quest and the template is the Quest Reward. The character must complete the Quest to get the desired template. The player also has to pay the appropriate credit cost for the increased ECL, which is 4° per extra level gained from the template. A 3-week Quest is mandatory. We assume that those who can spend 12 or more credits on a template can afford a Quest aswell. See it as an additional cost for the template. After completion, his ECL increases depending on the template. He instantly jumps to the necessary ECL (that is, his old level with which he began the quest plus the template level adjustment). He checks the table 3-2 (PHB,p22) on how many xp his new ECL gets, then adds the xp he gained during his quest. For gold, he adds the difference between his old ECL and the new ECL based on the table 5-1 (DMG,p135), and adds that amount to his stash, then adds the gold and items he found in the Quest. Example: Anna the halfling (ECL 3; 3500 XP, 3700 gp) had lead a happy life until her evil player (let's call him The Jindler ) wants her to die and rise as a ghost. So Anna embarks on a Quest with the Quest Goal: Ghost Template. She faces three encounters, and although she has to die in the end to become a ghost, she must complete the quest successfully first - i.e. survive all encounters; her transformation into a ghost is a roleplaying component at the end of the Quest. She completes the quest and gains 4000 XP and 4000 gp. With the new template her ECL rises to 8. According to the table below, an ECL 8 character gets 29,000 XP which is where she instantly jumps to. Then she adds the 4000 XP that she gained by completing her Quest. For her gold, she checks the table 5-1 in the DMG, and calculates the difference between ECL 3 and 8 - which is 24,300 gp. She also gets the 4000 gp from her quest for a total gold reward of 28,300 which is added to her existing wealth (3700, s.a.). Anna ends up with 33,000 XP and 32,000 gold. |
| Vathelokai02-16-06, 07:25 AM | Houston, we have a problem... There's something majorly wrong with Lonewolf's character Samuel Highground (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7875477) set-up. Well, he's a phrenic halfling ghost. All right, fine. ... It just doesn't make sense to me. TM Well, you are right, but there is a gladius house rule that when you gain a template you gain xp/gp as though you had gained levels equel to your newly aquired level adjustment. It's to keep the leagues at a roughly equivelent xp/gp ratio. It is kind of wierd though. As for the equipment issues... I think your right. Another thing that came up with (almost a year ago) was weather or not the special ghost powers were rolled for. I really don't know how any of this works, just responding to be responding. |
| Vathelokai02-16-06, 07:27 AM | @AYR: Tactics for Hassan (vs Cher) sent. If this works, I'm going to be so impressed... |
| TheMagister02-16-06, 07:29 AM | Well, you are right, but there is a gladius house rule that when you gain a template you gain xp/gp as though you had gained levels equel to your newly aquired level adjustment. It's to keep the leagues at a roughly equivelent xp/gp ratio. It is kind of wierd though. As for the equipment issues... I think your right. Another thing that came up with (almost a year ago) was weather or not the special ghost powers were rolled for. I really don't know how any of this works, just responding to be responding. found this: Experience for Monsters: A monster with Hit Dice of 1 or less, no level adjustment, and class levels uses the same tables as standard PC races when determining experience needed. A monster with Hit Dice of 1 or less, a level adjustment, and class levels adds its class levels, Hit Die, and level adjustment together when determining experience needed (class level + HD + level adjustment). A monster with more than one Hit Die, a level adjustment, and class levels adds its Hit Dice, class levels, and level adjustment together when determining experience needed (HD + level adjustment + class level). Level Adjustment and Effective Character Level: To determine the effective character level (ECL) of a monster character, add its level adjustment to its racial Hit Dice and character class levels. Use ECL instead of character level to determine how many experience points a monster character needs to reach its next level. Also use ECL to determine starting wealth for a monster character. Monster characters treat skills mentioned in their monster entry as class skills. If a monster has 1 Hit Die or less, or if it is a template creature, it must start the game with one or more class levels, like a regular character. If a monster has 2 or more Hit Dice, it can start with no class levels (though it can gain them later). Even if the creature is of a kind that normally advances by Hit Dice rather than class levels a PC can gain class levels rather than Hit Dice. Starting Level of a Monster PC: Monsters suitable for play have a level adjustment given in their statistics. Add a monster’s level adjustment to its Hit Dice and class levels to get the creature’s effective character level, or ECL. Effectively, monsters with a level adjustment become multiclass character when they take class levels. A creature’s “monster class” is always a favored class, and the creature never takes XP penalties for having it. It seems to back up my argument. I'm still unclear on the wealth-by-level thing, though. Maybe I just don't want to understand it, since it seems to be saying that a Level 1 character +7 levels of template = 8 levels of wealth. If that's so, then that sucks. You guys read it and tell me. If you want to read it yourself in the original context, I found this in the SRD under "Monsters as Races". TM |
| Dracazar02-16-06, 07:32 AM | I beg a questlord... This is my 3rd message about this issue, please any feedback would be appreciated. I would like to have Uilo in quest, Kedi was assigned as questlord but he is unalbe to do this. I'm looking for another questlord. I'm currently on week 2 of a 3 weeks quest but the quest never started. It would be great if the questlord could fix this problem doing the 3 fights in the next 2 weeks. The quest should be one with a fixed rewards, Uilo would like to quest for a tan bag of tricks. Thanks |
| lonewolf02-16-06, 08:00 AM | Houston, we have a problem... There's something majorly wrong with Lonewolf's character Samuel Highground (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7875477) set-up. Well, he's a phrenic halfling ghost. All right, fine. .... It just doesn't make sense to me. TM You have 2 issues here. The xp/gp of Samuel and the items. The xp/gp issue was answered above and I hope everything is clear now. In the CoCo your money is calculated by your ECL and not by your Character Level. The second Issue is more complicated. Outgame explanation: Fairness. You cannot expectme to give up most of my equipment and rob me the chance of ever buying anything new again. Ingame explanation: Gandalf the wizard has found a gap in the market and opened a small shop in the ethereal equivalent of Gladius. He gets there with his Plane shift spell and all the items he takes with him become ethereal. As a favour to his customers he also takes a few physical items with him into the ethereal plane that belonged to them previously. And to be honest: If you now start to change the rules to rob a character of mine from most of his powers after I spent more than 20 credits on the template and many weeks of an active character I must say that THAT sucks. I admit that the character is quite strong, but he also has his weaknesses. 12HP at ECL8 is not much. :rolleyes: EDIT: a quote from your quote: Also use ECL to determine starting wealth for a monster character. This doesnt back up your argument at all. |
| Macbrea02-16-06, 08:13 AM | Please see my above gladius rules on aquired templates. |
| Mal-202-16-06, 08:18 AM | @Gonbow Tactics for Sliver vs. Donak sent PLEASE send me a PM or an IM if you have questions...for that matter if you want to seperate thread battle this one, I am sure Mal-2 and I can come up with a mutual time to do it. I had to get all kinds of Sliver "Tricky Strumpet" Firebug crazy on this one. I'm up for running our fight in a seperate thread if you and Gonbow are. On another note, you'll be happy to hear I asked gonbow to surrender for me if my See Invisibility is dispelled. There's not much point putting him through the pain of making random listen checks and shooting at thin air if I can't see you. |
| TheMagister02-16-06, 08:26 AM | And to be honest: If you now start to change the rules to rob a character of mine from most of his powers after I spent more than 20 credits on the template and many weeks of an active character I must say that THAT sucks. I admit that the character is quite strong, but he also has his weaknesses. 12HP at ECL8 is not much. :rolleyes: Well, at least you spent credits on him. Credits change everything. You SHOULD get special treatment (a powerful character) if you had 20 credits to spend (since credits represent your contribution to the CoCo). I was looking at it from a table-top DM perspective and just thinking, "oh, no WAY!". From a TT perspective, I'd be right. Here, I'm not. That's fine, and I just wanted clarification. TM |
| Caterane02-16-06, 08:28 AM | We have discussed and concluded a lot of the ghost because of Jindl's Anna. As written in the rules, the character that acquired a template instantly jumps to the new level. Obviously, he has to not only get the xp but also the gold else there would be an extreme imbalance to that character's disadvantage. I think this doesn't need any more explanation. A ghost gains 1d3 abilities. This depends on luck and luck at character creation is bad. Just like we don't roll hitpoints, we shouldn't roll for abilities. The ghost players picked the maximum although an Elder rule that the average (i.e. two) should be taken might be necessary since we haven't agreed on that. As for the items, this is a bit trickier. A ghost retains 2d4 items from life. Jindl equipped Anna with 8 basic items, like 2 rings, amulett, cloak, boots, etc and enchanted them afterwards. This is okay. However, we don't have a Boo-Mart LOL and you cannot buy ethereal items on the prime material plane because of it's alien nature (a merchant couldn't even hold it). At least that was how we handled it with Anna. But we assume that there are cities on the ethereal plane and any item sold there is ethereal. You have to access that plane anyhow to buy items there. Jindl's Anna bought a figurine of wondrous power: obsidian steed to travel there. A nightmare cohort or inter-dimensional spells works just fine too. Until the ghost can acquire them, he can enchant his 8 items. Still, there are questions that need to be answered. Is an energy ray from an ethereal dorje material? Does an ethereal bag of tricks produce corporal animals? In general, does an ethereal source produce ethereal or material effects? I think these questions should be answered soon because of our two ghosts. I think we should discuss the whole ghost thing once and for all to have a clear idea on what flies and what not (decided by Elder Poll). I'll open a thread. |
| Vecnoran02-16-06, 08:38 AM | Tactics sent. |
| Turin02-16-06, 09:00 AM | ok so what do i need to do as a pitlord for unknown monster fights?As per The Rules of Gladius: Arena Combat I, you need to roll on the appropriate table in the DMG random encounters section (pages 79-81) to generate the monster that your gladiator will be fighting. Then take a look at the gladiator's knowledge skills to determine what you tell the player about his foe. So you'll open a post in the Battles of Gladius thread with the character sheet and then a description like this "Random monster: large beasty" or some other extremely vague description. Take a look at wayreth's setup post for Tsiuzues Pettles this week for a good example. Then your gladiator can send you his tactics and you run the fight on the Dungeon map. @ MitzaVolchenko & Wayreth: tactics received and thank you for getting them to me so quickly... I hope to have the fight up by Friday afternoon or so. Otherwise definitely Saturday. @ Kedi: working on tactics for Hexacious now @ Kaigan: I'll get you tactics for Ivangar once you've got your setup post up or PM me with the "general description" of my monster foe. |
| waywreth02-16-06, 09:02 AM | @Turin - Tactics for Histal in Histal (waywreth) vs. Zwei (MitzaVolchenko) sent via PM. @Erithmu - Tactics for Gaston in Kimahri (Dr.Funk) vs. Gaston Dar'ath (waywreth) sent via PM. @Skojar - Tsiuzues Pettles (Skojar) vs. Unknown Monster : Waywreth [Monster]. You're fighting a "Large Aberration". Please send tactics at your earliest convenience. |
| Snommelp02-16-06, 09:31 AM | I have already recieved tactics from the player and they are posted. At this point, I will be running the fight, with those tactics. So, it shouldn't make very much difference if he hunts down what creature it really could have been. Which that is alot of them. And even though I'm apparently wrong about what it is, my tactics wouldn't change any; what I sent in was essentially default tactics for Grik. |
| Macbrea02-16-06, 09:35 AM | You should be fine. Legion really likes you and wants to add you to their collection. |
| Myrridin02-16-06, 09:36 AM | @Iced: tactics for Morgan vs Lissa have been sent to you via PM. |
| Sindorin02-16-06, 09:38 AM | Hah we actually had someone with a pc named Legion a while back. He went questing and I killed him. (Spasheridan actually went dark and never came back to finish the quest) |
| Erithmu02-16-06, 09:46 AM | @wraywreath: tactices recieved. @my pitlords (minus stormwind) tactics will be sent this afternoon after class. |
| Dracazar02-16-06, 09:57 AM | @Begferdeth: Drac's tactic sent @Ayrynthyn: Cher's tactic sent @Snommelp: Shaz's tactic sent @All: Uilo's quest still not started Still looking for a questlord... please. |
| Turin02-16-06, 09:58 AM | kedi: tactics sent for Dr. Hexacious Pogboomer via email (and PM, just in case). |
| Warclone02-16-06, 10:05 AM | Hmm, so Thwap (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7867468) has been selected to fall before Tatyana (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7118092), eh? I suppose it is the nature of brawn to rampage neigh unopposed, only to be checked by mind. Would you like to surrender, or do you think you can handle this pure caster? All in good fun folks. The body is the mind's suit of armor. Why do you choose to go out to battle naked? Thwap shal pierce your supple flesh like so many porpuses and send you crying back to your Consortium. |
| Sindorin02-16-06, 10:22 AM | @Begferdeth: Drac's tactic sent @Ayrynthyn: Cher's tactic sent @Snommelp: Shaz's tactic sent @All: Uilo's quest still not started Still looking for a questlord... please. I could run a quest for you, just PM me with some information about it. Things are really tight right now, but I think we could git er done. |
| Abyssal Stalker02-16-06, 10:33 AM | @Begferdeth: You just cannot get rid of the bad-smelling, ugly dwarf, don't you? Being in "The PIT" with him must remind the movie "Army of Darkness"... Tactics sent. :yuck: @Shadowmaster: Tactics sent. Let Tan's puppies be squashed under the hooves of Misery! :fight!: @King Uther: tactics for Dronnar sent by e-mail. @Abyssal Stalker: tactics for Valek sent by PM. This week is gonna be fun... Got it! (Allthough you had the title saying "Dronnar...") Be careful what you wish for, this is my first fight as a Pitlord... ;) |
| Snommelp02-16-06, 11:03 AM | @Begferdeth: Drac's tactic sent @Ayrynthyn: Cher's tactic sent @Snommelp: Shaz's tactic sent @All: Uilo's quest still not started Still looking for a questlord... please. Got the tactics. At first glance they look good; I'll review them against your sheet tonight (after my long day of classes) and let you know if there are any problems. |
| Dracazar02-16-06, 11:06 AM | I could run a quest for you, just PM me with some information about it. Things are really tight right now, but I think we could git er done. Thanks Sindorin, I'll PM you right now. |
| SoulLord02-16-06, 11:50 AM | @Luni Do you have the link to the tactics and sheets for the Vandelar vs Talari fight so Lonewolf can finish the fight? |
| Gonbow02-16-06, 01:13 PM | @My gladiators Tactics recieved. A seperate thread eh? I've been wanting to do one these for awhile, but quite honestly, I don't have the time this week. I'm performing in a play friday and saturday, so I wouldn't be able to devote any significant amount of time to it until sunday. My apologizes; perhaps next week! @Luni Tactic's sent. @Warclone How elegantly said of you, but I protect my body well enough, you shall see. |
| Argaud02-16-06, 01:41 PM | @King Uther: Tactics for Korinel sent. |
| DSugui02-16-06, 01:49 PM | Got it! (Allthough you had the title saying "Dronnar...") Be careful what you wish for, this is my first fight as a Pitlord... ;) Oops... I think I spent too many hours tryimg to figure out how to make Dronnar win the blasted FFA that he kept in my mind when I sent you Valek's tactics... Anyway, I only wish a fun fight... |
| Zevox02-16-06, 02:13 PM | @ Nickbeat - Tactics for Destra (vs Sunstroke) sent via PM. @ Snommelp - Hennan's tactics recieved, thank you. You're probably right, it does look like, one way or the other, the fight won't last long. @ Kedi - Awaiting Satyricon's tactics eagerly. Like I said, so long as I get them before the deadline, you're AOK. Zevox |
| Kaigan02-16-06, 02:35 PM | Tactics Sent: Tactics for Feradeth sent to DTFarstar via PM. Tactics for Gundir sent to SauroGrenom via PM. Also, the "rough description" of Ivangar's Monster sent to Turin via PM. @Lucanthope: Your PM box is full, I can't foward you Eiletha's tactics from last week. |
| Sunwolf02-16-06, 03:09 PM | @Warclone Tactics for Leif sent by PM |
| MitzaVolchenko02-16-06, 03:29 PM | @Caterane You quest thread is here. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=588790) Also,next time do not email me tactics...I only noticed them prior to deletion on a fluke. @Mal-2 Prepare to eat dirt archer boy! |
| Kaigan02-16-06, 05:29 PM | @King Uther: Tactics for Emon sent via PM. |
| Ariel2302-16-06, 06:15 PM | Q: Is there no amount of knowledge to find out how many opponents you are fighting? Mightn't that be relevant information? @Skojar: I agree that some fights are very tough, or even impossible for some PCs but then, other monster fights are almost auto-wins. In your hydra/archon example, the fighter could align his weapon to negate the DR and 33 hp is not much for a fighter to beat. The hydra might be beaten by save or lose spells (althuogh you picked the toughest one on that list). a) How does a Fighter Align his weapon? b) How would a fighter know to write that in his tactics against an unknown foe? c) How would he even know what alignment the creature is once in the arena? d) (nitpicking) Hydras are neutral. A lot of monsters are. In order for a fighter to have the requisite knowledge skills to cover all arena monster fights, she (or most PC's) would need: Knowledge (Arcana) 2 ranks Knowledge (Dungeoneering) 2 ranks Knowledge (Local) 2 ranks Knowledge (Nature) 2 ranks Knowledge (Religion) 2 ranks Knowledge (Planes) 2 ranks = 12 ranks for a class with 2 skill points/level...just so they can write a single set of tactics for the week? CR = ECL = EL ? CR 4 monster = EL 4 In the eyes of the DMG, a CL 4 hydra (et al) would be about evenly matched with: Wizard Lvl 4 + Rogue Lvl 4 + Fighter Lvl 4 + Cleric Lvl 4 This party is an EL 8! Keep in mind, this party can clearly see and identify the creature and adjust their tactics round-by-round accordingly. They can cast 3x as many spells. No Knowledge skill is necessary, just player knowledge. Even using "character" knowledge, the chances that someone will have the requisite knowledge skill is much greater across a party of four. A lone ECL 4 gladiator vs a single CL 4 monster = "Very Difficult" (http://www.d20srd.org/encounterCalculator.htm) according to the DMG. An EL 4 party (such as 1st Lvl characters) not planning to encounter this creature is expected to flee. Even then, they should still probably flee. Is this the best solution? Writing tactics "blind" is just plain ---- (something argumentative). It causes a lot more work for the players and the pitlords. When there are other options for rules--and there are in this case--I will never understand going with the most complicated option. Here are some alternatives, just to brainstorm: 1) Gaining bonuses according to your Take 10 Knowledge DC. (See Archivist [HoH] for inspiration): 10 or less = +4 Initiative 11-13 = +1 damage 14-16 = +1 to hit 17-19 = +1 to all saves 20-22 = +2 damage (+3 total) 23-24 = +1 to hit (+2 total) 25-26 = +1 to all saves (+2 total) All bonuses are cumulative. 2) Raise the EL by 1 and make a team of 3 gladiators (it needs to be an odd number in order to preserve the purpose of monster fights). This makes the stakes in a monster fight much lower. 3) CoCo is an arena. Nobody is going to bet on a fight that reads "Character X vs Unknown Monster". Why do our characters all know who we are fighting that week except monsters? I'd much rather make all your opponents unknown each week, then every fight would involve default tactics, so there would be no delays in waiting for tactics after pairings. Pitlords would have more discretion, and a lot less arguments over intricate, vague, and paradoxical tactics. 4) If you have even 1 rank of knowledge, you know everything. 5) Throw out the 1/3 Sp/PP and daily usesrule...only for monster fights. |
| MindWandererB02-16-06, 06:42 PM | Q: Is there no amount of knowledge to find out how many opponents you are fighting? Mightn't that be relevant information?That is supposed to be included. Notify the pitlord if that info is missing. a) How does a Fighter Align his weapon? b) How would a fighter know to write that in his tactics against an unknown foe? c) How would he even know what alignment the creature is once in the arena? d) (nitpicking) Hydras are neutral. A lot of monsters are.Well, Oil of Bless Weapon or Corrupt weapon would do it. But I agree with the other points. CR = ECL = EL ? CR 4 monster = EL 4 In the eyes of the DMG, a CL 4 hydra (et al) would be about evenly matched with: Wizard Lvl 4 + Rogue Lvl 4 + Fighter Lvl 4 + Cleric Lvl 4Not true. That party is not "evenly matched" with that monster; they should be able to beat it esaily using about 1/4 of their resources. Note that an EL 4 NPC is a CR 4 encounter. So CR-wise, the hydra is identical to your average arena fight. However, I agree that in most circumstances, a party will know more than a gladiator ("Hmm... that big bug-looking thing just came out of the pentagram blazing with black and red energy. Think it might be time for a bless weapon?") And I also agree that P&P D&D fights are adaptive--you can learn during a fight what works and what doesn't, whereas blanket tactics can't cover anything like this. 1) Gaining bonuses according to your Take 10 Knowledge DC. (See Archivist [HoH] for inspiration): 10 or less = +4 Initiative 11-13 = +1 damage 14-16 = +1 to hit 17-19 = +1 to all saves 20-22 = +2 damage (+3 total) 23-24 = +1 to hit (+2 total) 25-26 = +1 to all saves (+2 total) All bonuses are cumulative.You want less complicated, but you suggest this? I'm not saying it wouldn't work, but it's a mess. 2) Raise the EL by 1 and make a team of 3 gladiators (it needs to be an odd number in order to preserve the purpose of monster fights). This makes the stakes in a monster fight much lower.Since not many people have the right Knowledge skills, I don't much see the point. So three people have to collaborate, plus thay have to cover all the guesswork involved, and they now have less than 48 hours to do it? Sorry, I don't see it happening. 3) CoCo is an arena. Nobody is going to bet on a fight that reads "Character X vs Unknown Monster". Why do our characters all know who we are fighting that week except monsters? I'd much rather make all your opponents unknown each week, then every fight would involve default tactics, so there would be no delays in waiting for tactics after pairings. Pitlords would have more discretion, and a lot less arguments over intricate, vague, and paradoxical tactics.An excellent point. I don't agree with the solution, but I do agree with the analysis. I think certain builds are designed to take on certain characters in certain ways (e.g. Resist Energy on the most dangerous energy type available, or use Improved Trip most of the time but not against an Expanded duergar), and making it blind will change things dramatically. I do think we need to start keeping tabs on monster fights. I'm going to go take a look. Edit: All right, here's the results of my "look." ·Cher vs. 2 Spider Swarms: The description ("two mounds of vermin") pretty much gave this one away. ·Rayos vs. Stone Giant: I'm not sure how much knowedge would have helped here. Certainly Kaigan's tactics would have been different had he known that his opponent had a good ranged attack, but a win might be a bit much to ask for. ·Sliver Firebug vs. 2 Gricks: Tactics turned out to be completely irrelevant in this case. Monsters do have their weaknesses. And that's been it so far. One case where Knowledge was a non-issue because of the description, one where it was a non-issue because the conclusion was foregone, and only one where it might conceivably have mattered, but would not have changed the outcome. So, so far, it hasn't really mattered. Time will tell. |
| Erithmu02-16-06, 07:22 PM | @Abyssal Stalker: Tactics for Loddick sent via PM @Nickbeat: Tactics for Selen sent via Email @Dr. Funk: still need tactics for your char in my fight. |
| NiQil02-16-06, 08:51 PM | @ SauroGrenom & Ribking: I have received tactics from neither of you. You have about 19 hours to get them in or defaults will be used. |
| Luni02-16-06, 09:24 PM | @Sindorin: Tactics for Shakari sent. @Gonbow: tactics received. Sending the link to Talari/Vandelar tactics to whomever needs them. I wonder if I could add (Crafts 14,000 gp in scrolls sue to 2 week downtime. :) ) I'll post a new Gladius Weekly later tonight, as the Olympics is really eating my mornings. |
| Argaud02-16-06, 09:27 PM | CR = ECL = EL ? CR 4 monster = EL 4 In the eyes of the DMG, a CL 4 hydra (et al) would be about evenly matched with: Wizard Lvl 4 + Rogue Lvl 4 + Fighter Lvl 4 + Cleric Lvl 4 This party is an EL 8! Keep in mind, this party can clearly see and identify the creature and adjust their tactics round-by-round accordingly. They can cast 3x as many spells. Yes, but there is some serious discrepancy between ECL and CR that can really screw up a monster battle, not to mention the EL-ness. A stone giant is CR 8, but if the giant was a player-controlled gladiator, he would be playing in the EL 18 league, and getting slaughtered in all battles as if he was a red-headed commoner. In a battle with other giants, the fight would be player-giant versus 32 NPC giants (CR18). It would be a very short battle, and I doubt anyone here would call it fair by any means. Giants are one of those monsters that can be overpowered in a battle but are horribly underpowered as part of a PC party. To say the truth, and forgive my newbiness, I don’t understand why the opponent of a monster fight has to be a mystery. When two gladiators fight they know who they will be facing, so why should it be different with a monster. |
| MindWandererB02-16-06, 09:55 PM | To say the truth, and forgive my newbiness, I don’t understand why the opponent of a monster fight has to be a mystery. When two gladiators fight they know who they will be facing, so why should it be different with a monster.The reason is because Caterane has been trying to find uses for as many of the PHB skills as possible. |
| TheMagister02-16-06, 11:38 PM | Tactics for Sdentch vs. Samuel sent via PM. My condolences. TM |
| Macbrea02-16-06, 11:54 PM | The reason knowledges are useful in truth is had Grik had alot more knowledge about this fellow this fight would be mindlessly easy for him. Now, it is may be a nail biter on wether he wins or not. Grik vs Legion If Grik doesn't get hit by any of the little guys. In the next round or so. This could be close. Now, Back to pitlording for a few minutes! |
| MindWandererB02-17-06, 12:24 AM | The reason knowledges are useful in truth is had Grik had alot more knowledge about this fellow this fight would be mindlessly easy for him. Now, it is may be a nail biter on wether he wins or not. Grik vs Legion If Grik doesn't get hit by any of the little guys. In the next round or so. This could be close.I have to wonder if you designed Legion's equipment after looking at Grik. You're not supposed to custom-tailor monsters' gear to combat the gladiator they're facing. Even if Grik did have some knowledge, there's no way he could have predicted that tactic without an insane Knowledge check. That was not cool. |
| Macbrea02-17-06, 12:28 AM | Actually. I had to buy equipment for a creature. I designed it based on the fact it was amorpheous. So.. a bracer and tattoos. Those tattoos would have worked on any character perfectly fine. Given that I had 7000 gps to spend on a creature that really didn't need any equipment to start with. I choose not to make it a straight bashing creature as soon as I rolled it. Tactics wise it only swung once because Grik prevoked an AoO from it. I would be willing to take that same creature up against something with a good will save. The damage off those tattoos are still will save for half. |
| NiQil02-17-06, 12:30 AM | Rebreg Eennoss' farewell engagement vs Greefe is up here. |
| Macbrea02-17-06, 12:33 AM | I should mention that the creature was shaped as an umber hulk for the whole fight. If I wanted to kill Grik fast I would have just attacked. Claw +17, Claw +17, Bite +12 Claw: 2d4+6 Bite: 2d8+3 vs AC 22 That could have become a very quick fight. |
| King Uther02-17-06, 04:33 AM | Emon vs Korinel vs Dordleton (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8496815&postcount=243) FFA is up. It really was a fun fight to run, and had a close ending to it. Edit: I had to edit something, as I did not factor in the shift of initiative due to a readied action. The fight is now done correctly. |
| DTFarstar02-17-06, 05:03 AM | Neidr vs. Feradeth (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8496881&postcount=244) is up. I hate crits, they always make me feel vaguely dirty for some reason. Stupid crits.... anyway, there it is. Have fun with all the other fights this week, people. -Chris |
| bgt02-17-06, 06:49 AM | Well, that was easy for all the wrong reasons. :) |
| NiQil02-17-06, 06:53 AM | The reason knowledges are useful in truth is had Grik had alot more knowledge about this fellow this fight would be mindlessly easy for him. Now, it is may be a nail biter on wether he wins or not. Grik vs Legion If Grik doesn't get hit by any of the little guys. In the next round or so. This could be close. Now, Back to pitlording for a few minutes! I think there might be a slight error here at the end...in round 6, you have the fine dragon connecting with a touch attack of 12. Grik's touch AC is 15 - 2 rage = 13. That should be a miss. I think this fight continues with that attack not connecting. |
| Stormwind02-17-06, 07:25 AM | Hmmm ... just looking at the fight setup for Cyra vs Harvester. Since Cat didn't screw up the Harvester's tactics ;) .. it seems Cyra will really need all the dice luck she can get ... ... here's hoping the dice gods are about to favour the underdog :D |
| DSugui02-17-06, 07:32 AM | @DSugui: I will do Finrods tactics tomorrow. I haven't received tactics for Finrod yet. I will try to run the fight tonight, so hurry up. |
| Ayrynthyn02-17-06, 07:33 AM | @Vathelokai @Dracazar Tactics for Hassan Sabbah vs. Cher recevieved. Thanks. Now lets see if i can avoid 3 late fights in a row :rolleyes: ;) |
| Macbrea02-17-06, 07:35 AM | I think there might be a slight error here at the end...in round 6, you have the fine dragon connecting with a touch attack of 12. Grik's touch AC is 15 - 2 rage = 13. That should be a miss. I think this fight continues with that attack not connecting. Ah, you are correct.. sorry, was reading the raging touch ac and -2 by accident! |
| Argaud02-17-06, 07:36 AM | Emon vs Korinel vs Dordleton (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8496815&postcount=243) FFA is up. It really was a fun fight to run, and had a close ending to it. Edit: I had to edit something, as I did not factor in the shift of initiative due to a readied action. The fight is now done correctly. Korinel saved against Emon's Mindthrust! Again, incredible luck with the saves makes me win a battle. I think I am going to add 'the Lucky' to Korinel's name :) |
| Macbrea02-17-06, 07:49 AM | Yup, your correct that did make the difference in the fight Grik wins. |
| lonewolf02-17-06, 07:54 AM | I haven't received tactics for Finrod yet. I will try to run the fight tonight, so hurry up. Tactics sent. |
| Vathelokai02-17-06, 07:58 AM | Just checking, but the deadline for tactics is in about 9 hours, correct? Still waiting to hear from Dameon [Huan]. |
| lonewolf02-17-06, 08:02 AM | Just checking, but the deadline for tactics is in about 9 hours, correct? Still waiting to hear from Dameon [Huan]. 8 hours :cool: |
| Mal-202-17-06, 08:21 AM | @Dr.Funk: I'm still waiting on tactics for Vivi |
| Turin02-17-06, 08:30 AM | @ Kaigan: tactics for Ivangar vs unknown monster sent via email (and PM, just in case). |
| DTFarstar02-17-06, 08:35 AM | Either state of emergency or new tactics deadline(more likely the latter) seems to have really made a difference, first time in awhile I've seen this many fights being posted and it's not a Monday evening. -Chris |
| King Uther02-17-06, 11:16 AM | Korinel saved 4 consecutive times. Now that is lucky. |
| SoulLord02-17-06, 11:48 AM | @Sindorin: Tactics for Shakari sent. @Gonbow: tactics received. Sending the link to Talari/Vandelar tactics to whomever needs them. I wonder if I could add (Crafts 14,000 gp in scrolls sue to 2 week downtime. :) ) I'll post a new Gladius Weekly later tonight, as the Olympics is really eating my mornings. He he he well look on the bright side I don't remember any fight being held for 4 weeks |
| Snommelp02-17-06, 11:58 AM | Yup, your correct that did make the difference in the fight Grik wins. Yay! I'm glad you're looking out for me, NiQil. And that's something I love about this community. People are willing to look over fights that don't involve their characters to check for mistakes. I know some pitlords may not like it, but I personally don't feel right if there's a mistake in my fights that I could fix but didn't. And speaking of my fights, I only have one set of tactics for my fight this week. Begferdeth, I need tactics for Ch'Ch'ili soon, according to the new deadlines! I will be running the fight in aproximately 24 hours, with default tactics if I don't get customized tactics. |
| Turin02-17-06, 12:13 PM | Histal (Waywreth) vs Zwei (MitzaVolchenko) is up. I would encourage both gladiators to make sure I didn't make any errors... I caught something major in Round 7 and backed the whole fight up to that point. It didn't effect the outcome, but I want to make sure no one is getting cheated. Well-written tactics by both gladiators, by the way, although one gladiator's tactics weren't well-enough written to win the match! |
| Stormwind02-17-06, 12:59 PM | Sola Nicous vs Lord Frost is up. Criticals are decisive ... My thanks to both Macbrea and Erithmu for their enthusiasm and participation in this separate thread arena fight. |
| MindWandererB02-17-06, 01:10 PM | Less than three hours left, and I still have no tactics from lucanthrope. As he has no default tactics, he could be the first victim of the new deadline.... |
| MitzaVolchenko02-17-06, 01:30 PM | Histal (Waywreth) vs Zwei (MitzaVolchenko) is up. I would encourage both gladiators to make sure I didn't make any errors... I caught something major in Round 7 and backed the whole fight up to that point. It didn't effect the outcome, but I want to make sure no one is getting cheated. Well-written tactics by both gladiators, by the way, although one gladiator's tactics weren't well-enough written to win the match! I am truly sorry, but please try again. You swap colors on us in the first round, but I figured that out with a minimum of pain. I specify NOT to play hide and sneak, but for some reason Zwei is moving 30' instead of 40' or more to close with him quickly and detouring into cover. The movement she took in round 3 where she cuts the corner is illegal. I would check the listen checks in the first round as the distance should have been an issue for us but the Rolls are HERE link has nothing at it. I was not intending to play archery contest with him. The crossbow was to interrupt casting as I closed to alch fire range which should have been no more than 2 rounds after locating him. I also specified to heal those MM's while I close. She has more than one potion. I think you also failed to raise all AC's appropriately at various points. Taking him out was a long shot, but it was a viable shot before he was allowed as many rounds as he cared to buff and recall. |
| klangley02-17-06, 01:32 PM | --------------------------------- Originally Posted by Ariel23 CR = ECL = EL ? CR 4 monster = EL 4 In the eyes of the DMG, a CL 4 hydra (et al) would be about evenly matched with: Wizard Lvl 4 + Rogue Lvl 4 + Fighter Lvl 4 + Cleric Lvl 4 This party is an EL 8! Keep in mind, this party can clearly see and identify the creature and adjust their tactics round-by-round accordingly. They can cast 3x as many spells. -------------------------------- No, in the eyes of the DMG, the hydra would be an "appropriate encounter" for that party, NOT "evenly matched." The DMG does not ever suggest putting players in a D&D game into an even fight, where they would have a 50% chance of wiping out, and a DM who did this reguularly would not keep a group for long. An "appropriate encounter" is ideally supposed to wear down about 25% of their spells, HP and expendables while providing some small risk that one of them might die (and a near certainty that the hydra will not survive the experience). Arena combat encounter design is very different from standard RPG encounter design. |
| waywreth02-17-06, 01:48 PM | I was not intending to play archery contest with him. The crossbow was to interrupt casting as I closed to alch fire range which should have been no more than 2 rounds after locating him. I also specified to heal those MM's while I close. She has more than one potion. Taking him out was a long shot, but it was a viable shot before he was allowed as many rounds as he cared to buff and recall. I would like to note the range increment of the alchemist fire is 10'. With Histal near the roof (50') that's a -10 to hit, which is a major penalty even vs. a touch AC. |
| Macbrea02-17-06, 01:53 PM | Ok, two things on the balance issue and Monster combats. First the MM and DMG had to make some very large balance assumptions. Party size if 4 vs the CR of the monster. Standard Party member is a 25 point buy character. Stardard amount of experience you get is divided by 4. So, given our 36 point buy characters designed to single kill another 36 point buy character. We are running the CRs as if they are leagues of their own on monsters. Yes, if you wanted 'Fair' Encounters it should work out that you should never fight creatures greater then CR-2 with a single 36 pt buy character. Arenas aren't about testing 'Fair' Encounters. It's about testing the limits of a build against 'Unfair' odds. |
| NiQil02-17-06, 02:11 PM | Standard Party member is a 25 point buy character. This has nothing to do with anything being discussed...but I just had to throw it out there... I don't know *anyone who uses a 25 pt buy. Without fail, since the introduction of point buy, 25 pts is universally considered woefully underpowered in every gaming group I have come in contact with. Most use 30 as the base, while some go as high as 40. We now return you to your regularly scheduled monster discussion. |
| Turin02-17-06, 02:15 PM | Okay, I've sorted the rules stuff out of the tactics stuff. My responses to the rules items are first:You swap colors on us in the first round, but I figured that out with a minimum of pain. (Turin: Fixed!) The movement she took in round 3 where she cuts the corner is illegal. (Turin: the map scripting tool always makes straight lines from point to point... Zwei actually cuts around the pillar and if you look at the distance she can make it.) I would check the listen checks in the first round as the distance should have been an issue for us but the Rolls are HERE link has nothing at it. (Turin: check again... they're there. Rolls #367289 and 367288.) I think you also failed to raise all AC's appropriately at various points. (Turin: Looks like I missed Zwei's inertial armor in Round 1. That's been fixed.) Now for tactics: I specify NOT to play hide and sneak, but for some reason Zwei is moving 30' instead of 40' or more to close with him quickly and detouring into cover. I was not intending to play archery contest with him. The crossbow was to interrupt casting as I closed to alch fire range which should have been no more than 2 rounds after locating him. I also specified to heal those MM's while I close. She has more than one potion. Taking him out was a long shot, but it was a viable shot before he was allowed as many rounds as he cared to buff and recall.There is another error that I made, which is that Zwei has a Speed of 40' and not 30'. However, I don't feel that this was "playing hide and seek". Direct movement to your opponent couldn't be in a straight line because that line was blocked. So rather than move you towards your foe in the open, I kept cover between you and your foe -- as your stated intent was to close with Histal, I made the "crazy" assumption that you would rather not get hit with spells while doing so. Especially considering you were still buffing yourself up until Round 4. Let's look from there: Round 4: Zwei could certainly have moved an additional 25' from cover, but at the end of this round we would still have the same HP result, and in Round 6 she'd be in the same boat. Round 5: Zwei's readied action (as specified in your tactics) kicks in to no effect, and Zwei is badly injured. Round 6-7: Zwei has only 9hp left. Rather than moving directly towards your opponent and giving him another un-returned shot (because now your crossbow is empty), I moved Zwei to cover to heal and reload her crossbow. Note that had she not done this, we'd essentially be skipping to the results of Round 8-9 because you'd be down in HP. If you healed in the open, you'd be giving Histal another shot at you -- keep in mind that Zwei doesn't know that Histal is planning on using his pearl of power at this point. Round 8-9: Zwei, having healed, continues on with her tactics of closing, unsuccessfully using readied actions to attempt to prevent Histal from hitting her with spells. Round 10-11: Zwei gets close and throws her flasks, as per your tactics. Because her foe is 40', Zwei can't throw unless she's within 10' on the ground. In Round 11, I felt continuing to use the ready strategy was your best chance of surviving long enough to throw all your flasks, as you might prevent your opponent from casting spells. EDIT: bottom line is that you've got Zwei doing too many things as she closes. After Round 4, she can't close with her foe, ready to interrupt casting, reload her crossbow, and heal magic missile damage all at the same time. You said in your tactics to use cover where practical, and I've done so -- the best time to use cover is when you can't return fire. I will try to get in an edit to see if changing the speed to 40' after round 4 will make a difference, but it's my intention at this point to let the interpretation of the tactics stand as-is. |
| MindWandererB02-17-06, 02:16 PM | I don't know *anyone who uses a 25 pt buy. Without fail, since the introduction of point buy, 25 pts is universally considered woefully underpowered in every gaming group I have come in contact with. Most use 30 as the base, while some go as high as 40.I can tell you who uses 25 point buy: WotC development. They estimate CRs based on 25-point Tordek, Jozan, Mialee, and Lidda. So 30-point characters will have a slightly easier time than expected. Of course, not every party has the optimal role distribution, but others are min-maxed out the ears, so it all balances out. |
| Mal-202-17-06, 02:26 PM | This has nothing to do with anything being discussed...but I just had to throw it out there... I don't know *anyone who uses a 25 pt buy. I'm in two face to face D&D games at the moment. One of them is 25 point buy, the other is 28 point buy. It's certainly different from the 36 point builds we do here! |
| Macbrea02-17-06, 02:28 PM | One of the current campaigns, I am playing in is based on 25 pt buy. We all feel woefully underpowered. But the fights are much more challenging to the party of 6 now. |
| Macbrea02-17-06, 02:30 PM | heh, Mal-2 beat me too that one. We are playing in the same campaign! |
| Turin02-17-06, 03:19 PM | EDIT: bottom line is that you've got Zwei doing too many things as she closes. After Round 4, she can't close with her foe, ready to interrupt casting, reload her crossbow, and heal magic missile damage all at the same time. You said in your tactics to use cover where practical, and I've done so -- the best time to use cover is when you can't return fire. I will try to get in an edit to see if changing the speed to 40' after round 4 will make a difference, but it's my intention at this point to let the interpretation of the tactics stand as-is.Alright, I've edited the fight to account for the 40' movement, which gets you to your opponent a bit earlier than you did before. Unfortunately, the dice still didn't go your way with the extra two flasks of alchemist's fire, so the end result is the same but now Zwei's used two additional flasks of alchemist fire. Obviously at this point the dice rolls in Invisible Castle are pretty messed up... I've kept thematic rolls as possible and added extra rolls as neccessary. Hopefully you can sort it out and trust me (and the fact that -10 to hit for range doesn't help you much), because I'd rather not go through and edit to link each roll individually. |
| waywreth02-17-06, 03:27 PM | @Turin - It's (-8 to hit) if Histal is 50' up, I forgot the first range increment is free in my original post. |
| MindWandererB02-17-06, 04:02 PM | And... time is up! Davos fights with extrapolated tactics this week. Fortunately he uses pretty simple tactics, which were pretty similar across the two fights in his history. |
| Ariel2302-17-06, 04:18 PM | Q: Is there no amount of knowledge to find out how many opponents you are fighting? Mightn't that be relevant information?That is supposed to be included. Notify the pitlord if that info is missing.Actually, it's not on the table, which is why I asked. [Table reprinted in SBlock, below] You want less complicated, but you suggest this? I'm not saying it wouldn't work, but it's a mess.My table is no more complicated than the table currently in use and with mine you will always write a single set of tactics:Current knowledge table in use * No Ranks: Size and rough description (like 'huge monster') * 1+ Ranks: Size, Type, Description (huge magical beast with many heads) * Dc0+HD: Race (7-headed hydra) * Dc5+HD: Race, Subtypes, Class levels (7 headed Cryo-Hydra, no classes) * Dc10+HD: Race, Subtypes, Class levels, Equipment, Specials * Dc15+HD: All plus Tactic Ariel's brainstormed table [You automatically know the monster you are fighting] 10 or less = +4 Initiative 11-13 = +1 damage 14-16 = +1 to hit 17-19 = +1 to all saves 20-22 = +2 damage 23-24 = +1 to hit 25-26 = +1 to all saves Since not many people have the right Knowledge skills, I don't much see the point. So three people have to collaborate, plus thay have to cover all the guesswork involved, and they now have less than 48 hours to do it? Sorry, I don't see it happening.In a lone PC-v-Monster fight, it's all-or-nothing in terms of what makes your character special versus what makes your opponent special [and whatever that might be is unknown]. With 3 people there's a chance someone might have the Knowledge skill. But, mainly, with 3 people, you can each just send in default tactics exploiting your strengths (grappling, Energy Ray, flight and missiles) and the odds are good that someone might have the advantage, while the others provide support (or even healing). And if you lose, you stand to lose a lot less. The same is true of winning, but that would mean less frustration at these "mystery fights." Final Rant I don't disagree with making more skills useful, nor certainly making Knowledge useful, but this is addition by subtraction: making things worse for PCs without Knowledge, rather than making things better for people with ranks in Knowledge. It's punishment for non-offenders, rather than reward for the actors. This is nothing like Sleight of Hand or Open Locks...those skills are only necessary if you want to make them necessary. We did not make any other "useless" skills better by making them semi-mandatory for everyone to have. Knowledge skills have now become necessary for everyone to have, yet they are trained-only skills...and there are six of them, at that. Even for the 18 INT wizard (the only person who could possibly take "advantage" of these rules), you could put 30 skill points to gain 5 ranks in each and never use them once. You choose when and where to use other skills. Not so with Knowledge, it's entirely out of the player's hands when and where to take advantage of the skill. |
| Myrridin02-17-06, 04:45 PM | Arenas aren't about testing 'Fair' Encounters. It's about testing the limits of a build against 'Unfair' odds. Yep, this is why we fight Caterane's characters. ;) |
| MitzaVolchenko02-17-06, 04:59 PM | Alright, I've edited the fight to account for the 40' movement, which gets you to your opponent a bit earlier than you did before. Unfortunately, the dice still didn't go your way with the extra two flasks of alchemist's fire, so the end result is the same but now Zwei's used two additional flasks of alchemist fire. Obviously at this point the dice rolls in Invisible Castle are pretty messed up... I've kept thematic rolls as possible and added extra rolls as neccessary. Hopefully you can sort it out and trust me (and the fact that -10 to hit for range doesn't help you much), because I'd rather not go through and edit to link each roll individually. THERE ARE NO ROLLS AT THE LINK AT THE TOP OF THE FIGHT. Alch fire is a splash weapon with a need to hit AC 5 to hit a given square. As Histal is at the ceiling so it has a hard surface to hit. On direct hit to opponent's AC it does 1d6 in that round and 1d6 further in the next round. Thus, Histal needs to make concentration checks against it for two rounds and take two rounds of damage. The point in healing with all three potions was to get the latitude to close things up to where she could tanglefoot and alch fire him. That was the point which was fairly clear in my tactics. If she outheals his first several MM's she is then on close to even footing with him. You are not required to re-run for tactical arguments, of course. I would like to see the concentration check and additional round damage in the last round wherein he took 1 point of damage had no concentration check and then the alch fire just quit burning. Also, I am not sure why you only fixed movement from round 4 on. Zwei did not suddenly become faster because Histal had finished buffing and was prepared to magic missile her. By the same token that you state she couldn't do all things in the same round (which of course I did not mean her to), he cannot cast and recall cast and recall and just have all things his own way while in plain sight...except that he can because Zwei decides to keep wandering off for smoke breaks. I honestly don't mind losing (see my response to the loss for Sybil on the second run of her fight against Rokk). I do mind losing when the fight is not run correctly. Tactical interpretations aside (and obviously I disagree with what you chose as the more important parts of my tactics), this is yet another fight where I feel like what I wrote and what the pitlord decided was best for my character were not the same things. I need to look back and see who ran Sybil's first fight and send htem a thank you. I wrote charge and barge suicide tactcs and they were followed...a thousand blessings on your house whoever that was. On a side note, I have run Histal several times and have seen his fights...if Zwei doesn't know he's using his pearls of pwer, she has an IQ of 6. I have learned a valuable lesson with this this fight. 1) Write ninety pages of tactics if you are going to enter arena fights. 2)Stop entering arena fights. I appreciate the time it takes to run fights, and as such I am going to stop wasting everyone's time with my fighters. It isn't worth my irritation at having to be a witch and ask for corrections to every fight, and it isn't worth the effort it takes for pitlords to run a fight and then have it shot to pieces. |
| waywreth02-17-06, 05:10 PM | Alch fire is a splash weapon with a need to hit AC 5 to hit a given square. As Histal is at the ceiling so it has a hard surface to hit. On direct hit to opponent's AC it does 1d6 in that round and 1d6 further in the next round. Thus, Histal needs to make concentration checks against it for two rounds and take two rounds of damage. I believe you're a bit off... a splash does 1 point of damage. To directly hit someone, you have to roll to hit their touch AC (with a -8 in this case due to the range). There is no secondary damage nor a chance to catch on fire when used in that fashion - so Turin has it correct. One point of damage, no further effect. "However, if you target a grid intersection, creatures in all adjacent squares are dealt the splash damage, and the direct hit damage is not dealt to any creature." |
| MindWandererB02-17-06, 05:42 PM | Death (NiQil) vs Davos Antaryon (lucanthrope): MindWandererB [ECL3] is up! This must be national crit week, or sumthin'. Again, this is my first time pitlording, so I welcome any non-hostile criticism, even minor things. |
| NiQil02-17-06, 05:59 PM | Death (NiQil) vs Davos Antaryon (lucanthrope): MindWandererB [ECL3] is up! This must be national crit week, or sumthin'. Again, this is my first time pitlording, so I welcome any non-hostile criticism, even minor things. I don't see anything wrong...nothing jumping out at me anyway. As to your comments about the stowing, you did it just fine as far as I am concerned. I don't like to drop weapons because I have had fights in the past where I have needed to switch weapons and had to go back to retrieve one because I dropped it. I'll fix the bow weight now...I bet I have it wrong on all my characters...forgot that darkwood drops the weight. |
| MitzaVolchenko02-17-06, 07:07 PM | I believe you're a bit off... a splash does 1 point of damage. To directly hit someone, you have to roll to hit their touch AC (with a -8 in this case due to the range). There is no secondary damage nor a chance to catch on fire when used in that fashion - so Turin has it correct. One point of damage, no further effect. "However, if you target a grid intersection, creatures in all adjacent squares are dealt the splash damage, and the direct hit damage is not dealt to any creature." I couldn't tell if he was doing targetted or splash. The rolls that are supposed to be at the link are not... |
| nickbeat02-17-06, 08:50 PM | I think there may be a misinterpretation of the Wild Surge. It only gives increased manifester level, not free PP. Emon appears to have used more than 7 PP for this fight. Really 5D10 damage touch attack is just too much for a level 3. Also, Dordleton did not follow some tactics. The gnome was his primary target, not the ranger, and the invisibility was something he was saving for after he took damage. I don't intend to gripe and totally accept the loss, just want to clarify this. Question: When someone is not moving, do they allow a listen check? Dordleton was laying motionless on the ground, and so I expected that he would not be detected by sound, only sight. Thanks, Nick [QUOTE=King Uther]All rolls here. (http://invisiblecastle.com/rolldice.py) Name: E/K/D Round 1: Emon Manifests Inertial Armor, draws powerstone of skate. (1 PP) Round 2: Emon manifests Force Screen, draws a potion of Protection From Chaos (1 PP) Round 3: Emon manifests Vigor, draws powerstone of skate (1 PP) Round 4: Emon manifests Skate. (0 PP) Round 8: Emon manifests a Wild-Surged Mind Thrust at Dordleton (5 PP) Round 9: Emon steps back again, manifesting a power to destroy the mobile archer. (5 PP) Round 10: Emon, seeing the resilience of Korinel, concentrates harder on his mental strike. (5 PP) Round 12: Having only 1pp left, Emon concentrates hard to blast Korinal through the grapple. |
| Ravashack02-17-06, 09:26 PM | I think there may be a misinterpretation of the Wild Surge. It only gives increased manifester level, not free PP. Emon appears to have used more than 7 PP for this fight. Really 5D10 damage touch attack is just too much for a level 3. That is incorrect. You are confusing Wild Surge with Overchannel. Wild Surges DO pay for the PP from the increased manifester level. Overchannel does not. Overchannel deals damage for the price, while Wild Surges can Enervate you. Wild Surge (Su): A wilder can let her passion and emotion rise to the surface in a wild surge when she manifests a power. During a wild surge, a wilder gains phenomenal psionic strength, but may harm herself by the reckless use of her power (see Psychic Enervation, below). A wilder can choose to invoke a wild surge whenever she manifests a power. When she does so, she gains +1 to her manifester level with that manifestation of the power. The manifester level boost gives her the ability to augment her powers to a higher degree than she otherwise could; however, she pays no extra power point for this wild surge. Instead, the additional 1 power point that would normally be required to augment the power is effectively supplied by the wild surge. Level-dependent power effects are also improved, depending on the power a wilder manifests with her wild surge. This improvement in manifester level does not grant her any other benefits (psicrystal abilities do not advance, she does not gain higher-level class abilities, and so on). She cannot use the Overchannel psionic feat and invoke her wild surge at the same time. At 3rd level, a wilder can choose to boost her manifester level by two instead of one. At 7th level, she can boost her manifester level by up to three; at 11th level, by up to four; at 15th level, by up to five; and at 19th level, by up to six. In all cases, the wild surge effectively pays the extra power point cost that is normally required to augment the power; only the unaugmented power point cost is subtracted from the wilder’s power point reserve. OVERCHANNEL [PSIONIC] You burn your life force to strengthen your powers. Benefit: While manifesting a power, you can increase your effective manifester level by one, but in so doing you take 1d8 points of damage. At 8th level, you can choose to increase your effective manifester level by two, but you take 3d8 points of damage. At 15th level, you can increase your effective manifester level by three, but you take 5d8 points of damage. The effective increase in manifester level increases the number of power points you can expend on a single power manifestation, as well as increasing all manifester level-dependent effects, such as range, duration, and overcoming power resistance. Normal: Your manifester level is equal to your total levels in classes that manifest powers. |
| Argaud02-17-06, 09:30 PM | Round 1: Emon Manifests Inertial Armor, draws powerstone of skate. (1 PP) Round 2: Emon manifests Force Screen, draws a potion of Protection From Chaos (1 PP) Round 3: Emon manifests Vigor, draws powerstone of skate (1 PP) Round 4: Emon manifests Skate. (0 PP) Round 8: Emon manifests a Wild-Surged Mind Thrust at Dordleton (5 PP) Round 9: Emon steps back again, manifesting a power to destroy the mobile archer. (5 PP) Round 10: Emon, seeing the resilience of Korinel, concentrates harder on his mental strike. (5 PP) Round 12: Having only 1pp left, Emon concentrates hard to blast Korinal through the grapple. I am not an expert in psionics by any means, but I think activating tattoos does not consume PPs, they are like potions. I actually read the Wilder abilities before the fight, and yes, when they wildsurge at level 3 they manifest 2 levels above their normal level and get 2 free PPs (and all that for a 10% chance to get dazzed). This is pretty nasty with Mindthrust, since Mindtrusts causes 1d10 damage for PP spent, and gives +1 to DCs for saves for each 2 PPs spent over the first one. I think in round 10 Emon hit with only 1PP+wildsurge, for 3d10 damage. So in total he spent 3+3+1 = 7 PPs, which is what he was allowed for the fight. Without Korinel's crazy luck (I think that with a +2 will save he passed a DC18) Emon would have killed us both without breaking in sweat. In my tactics I had Korinel avoiding getting close to him like the plague (and he would, except Dor tripped him!). And I wanted Korinel to avoid your character until Emon was dead, too :-) |
| nickbeat02-17-06, 10:22 PM | I am not confusing the two powers. The confusing part is in this line... "Instead, the additional 1 power point that would normally be required to augment the power is effectively supplied by the wild surge." This states that you do not have to pay PP for the augmentation that gives the advantage of the higher manifester level. It does not say that you may gain PP for the power. It is bad enough he can pull off 5d10 damage touch attack at 5th level, but twice in a fight with room left over for another 3d10?. This is pure munchkinism, and game balance is in severe jeopardy if we allow this. Everyone will build a wilder then. I like psionics, but they have to remain equivilant to magic. I am concerned about the ruling on this mainly because I am pitlording a fight to resolve that involves a wilder as well. Correction to the above: Vigor for 10 HP should cost 2 PP. @Argaud: I don't think Emon had any tattoos. |
| Mal-202-17-06, 11:05 PM | I am not confusing the two powers. The confusing part is in this line... "Instead, the additional 1 power point that would normally be required to augment the power is effectively supplied by the wild surge." This states that you do not have to pay PP for the augmentation that gives the advantage of the higher manifester level. It does not say that you may gain PP for the power. Augmentations have nothing to do with manifester level, really. Augmentations are the bits at the bottom of the power that cost the extra power points. The only thing that manifester level controls is the total number of power points that can be spent on the power and any augmentations you add. A level 3 wilder who wild surges for two extra manifester levels gets to manifest a power she knows at ML 5, and 5 total power points invested (3 from her personal power point pool, and 2 from the wild surge). If she's manifesting a second level power, that's 3 power points for the base power, and two more for any augmentations the manifester wishes. |
| Zevox02-17-06, 11:11 PM | @ Kedi: I still have not recieved tactics for Satyricon. Furtunately I have not been scheduled to work this weekend, so I can wait a while longer for them, but if I have not recieved tactics for him by 1 p.m. EST Sunday he will forfeit the match (which would be a real shame, since its a challenge match you two are paying credits for). @ Nickbeat - Look closer at the bolded portion of Ravashak's quote. It states: In all cases, the wild surge effectively pays the extra power point cost that is normally required to augment the power; only the unaugmented power point cost is subtracted from the wilder’s power point reserve. Ergo wild surging does pay the power point cost for the augmentation in addition to raising the ML of the power. Zevox |
| Sindorin02-17-06, 11:18 PM | Heh, I would love to have finished Kracknol vs. Shakari by now, but you both wrote rather solid tactics that broke down. It will be a bit before I get this finished. |
| Snommelp02-17-06, 11:19 PM | @ Kedi: I still have not recieved tactics for Satyricon. Furtunately I have not been scheduled to work this weekend, so I can wait a while longer for them, but if I have not recieved tactics for him by 1 p.m. EST Sunday he will forfeit the match (which would be a real shame, since its a challenge match you two are paying credits for).You could always just run him with really basic tactics (especially since he's a barbarian). It's not as satisfying as beating personalized tactics, but it's more satisfying than winning by default. |
| nickbeat02-17-06, 11:26 PM | I found this example which proves you are all correct: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040215a&page=4 Still, I retain that this is way unbalanced and deserves errata. It does not consider the artificial CoCo Spell and PP limits on Arena fights. @Kaigan: Why are you retiring this character?` |
| Mal-202-18-06, 12:24 AM | I have a question about using Handle Animal to Push a creature to perform a trick it does not know. The animal being pushed is a druid's Dire Bat animal companion with one attack trick. She's been successfully pushed to attack an elemental (which normally requires a second Attack trick). The question is, how often does the druid need to push the bat? Once she succeeds, does the bat continue to attack the elemental until told to do otherwise, or does it need to be pushed every round? |
| King Uther02-18-06, 12:28 AM | @nickbeat I assumed it was a powerstone of vigor. I'll look at his sheet tomorrow. I went invisible because you were a sitting duck. I felt improvisationally it was your best bet. You went after Korinel because you didn't see or detect Emon's presence yet. Also, you cannot hit Emon except on a Nat 20 and he killed you with his first attack. I'm sorry Dordleton rolled poorly, but the Dice Gods are a fickle lot. |
| DSugui02-18-06, 12:35 AM | Tai-Rath'os vs Finrod is up here Quick and nasty. |
| nickbeat02-18-06, 12:36 AM | Actually, he was a laying duck. I knew he would have a heck of a chance chasing anyone down, and presumed just laying there til someone got close was his only shot. I understand the grind of pitlording, no worries and thanks for running it. I'm still getting used to this format and need to be very specific in my tactics. Give him a wilder for the next pairing and we will see what happens! |
| Kaigan02-18-06, 01:43 AM | I found this example which proves you are all correct: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040215a&page=4 Still, I retain that this is way unbalanced and deserves errata. It does not consider the artificial CoCo Spell and PP limits on Arena fights. @Kaigan: Why are you retiring this character?` Because I need the character space for someone else. Lol. And I don't really like how I've built him. He needs tweaking, which he will get eventually. So technically, I'm not retiring completely. He's getting a character make over, then will be fighting when the "State of Emergency" is over. |
| Argaud02-18-06, 05:38 AM | I found this example which proves you are all correct: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040215a&page=4 Still, I retain that this is way unbalanced and deserves errata. It does not consider the artificial CoCo Spell and PP limits on Arena fights. @Kaigan: Why are you retiring this character?` I had a pretty long answer written last night when the powersource of my computer died out on me, gah! Alas, my point was that 5d10 damage might seem overpowered, but then again, it is pretty much the same that being hit by a hold person spell, which a level 3 cleric can pull. In the arena, this is almost sure death - unless the gladiator saves the usually very tough, optimized-for-sure-doom DC. |
| Dracazar02-18-06, 05:47 AM | I have a question about using Handle Animal to Push a creature to perform a trick it does not know. The animal being pushed is a druid's Dire Bat animal companion with one attack trick. She's been successfully pushed to attack an elemental (which normally requires a second Attack trick). The question is, how often does the druid need to push the bat? Once she succeeds, does the bat continue to attack the elemental until told to do otherwise, or does it need to be pushed every round? IMHO it is a one push, and also it is a free action for a druid's animal companion. Also it could be repeated on failed push. |
| Abyssal Stalker02-18-06, 09:59 AM | Loddick vs Valek (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8504167&postcount=251) is up! If you people could check it out. This was my first fight and of course it had to be psionics... Well, there's a first time for everything! I just hope it's not a total mess. It took me a while to get it done, especially because the boards were down every now and then. |
| SauroGrenom02-18-06, 10:56 AM | Hi Sindorin, I looked over the fight so far, and I noticed that Kracknol is not moving at his true speed in any of his move actions. He has Speed of Thought as a feat and it grants him a +10 insight bonus to his speed while psionicially focused (Prebuffed). In every round he appears to be moving using his base speed of only 20'. Please check it out. Also if Kracknol uses Burst he can charge a fairly long distance of 80', and this was mentioned in his tactics. Also you never made a move silently check for Kracknol (mentioned in the tactics), and if you had, it's unlikely that Shakari could have heard Kracknol yet. It's realy your call, but I find it hard to believe that Kracknol's +12 move silently is so much lower then Shakari's +12 Listen that he cannot get within 16 squares of her position, especially considering the distance modifiers on listen checks at that distance. Apparently he must fall back on his desperation tactics that were written as the backup for the possibility that his charges misses or that Shakari survives it and in either case is able to escape melee. If that happenes Shakari will always know exactialy where he is at and will flawlessly avoid all his future attempts to restart melee, so Kracknol must fall back on his crappy ranged combat. I don't think that the conditions of the combat warrant the backup tactics yet. Anyway, please look at the movement speed one more time and make sure that it's correct. Also it would be nice to add in the move silently checks for Kracknol when Shakari is trying to hear his movement. Thanks, Sauro |
| Sindorin02-18-06, 11:12 AM | Hi Sindorin, I looked over the fight so far, and I noticed that Kracknol is not moving at his true speed in any of his move actions. He has Speed of Thought as a feat and it grants him a +10 insight bonus to his speed while psionicially focused (Prebuffed). In every round he appears to be moving using his base speed of only 20'. Please check it out. Also if Kracknol uses Burst he can charge a fairly long distance of 80', and this was mentioned in his tactics. Also you never made a move silently check for Kracknol (mentioned in the tactics), and if you had, it's unlikely that Shakari could have heard Kracknol yet. It's realy your call, but I find it hard to believe that Kracknol's +12 move silently is so much lower then Shakari's +12 Listen that he cannot get within 16 squares of her position, especially considering the distance modifiers on listen checks at that distance. Apparently he must fall back on his desperation tactics that were written as the backup for the possibility that his charges misses or that Shakari survives it and in either case is able to escape melee. If that happenes Shakari will always know exactialy where he is at and will flawlessly avoid all his future attempts to restart melee, so Kracknol must fall back on his crappy ranged combat. I don't think that the conditions of the combat warrant the backup tactics yet. Anyway, please look at the movement speed one more time and make sure that it's correct. Also it would be nice to add in the move silently checks for Kracknol when Shakari is trying to hear his movement. Thanks, Sauro I'm working on it. I slapped myself when I saw the SoT after moving around at the base speed and I didn't notice the move silently at first. Your points directly reflect how I am running it right now though, so everything should be okay when finished. |
| DSugui02-18-06, 11:35 AM | Loddick vs Valek (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8504167&postcount=251) is up! If you people could check it out. This was my first fight and of course it had to be psionics... Well, there's a first time for everything! I just hope it's not a total mess. It took me a while to get it done, especially because the boards were down every now and then. Oh, my... this bad luck is killing me every week... I just found one thing: in round 9, does Loddick use his DeepCrystal bow for extra damage? If so, he can't do that, since it's required 2pp to fuel the bow, and he has only one left. This could give Valek a few rounds more to try to slice his opponent... |
| Vathelokai02-18-06, 11:37 AM | Va'ria Theladris vs Dameon Leone is up. I thought all the "horrible rolls this week" stuff was just superstition... then I ran my fight. |
| Macbrea02-18-06, 11:37 AM | MitzaVolchenko succeeds in not changing the log in at thecomputer she is sitting at...go team! |
| MitzaVolchenko02-18-06, 11:41 AM | Ignore the evil jawa post above...my bad. the point I was making htere was that I nailed Karen Douglas with 10d10 damage in one shot on a quest and managed to tickle her...no more, no less. Phenomenal cosmic damage only means something if it rolls well. |
| NiQil02-18-06, 11:42 AM | IMHO it is a one push, and also it is a free action for a druid's animal companion. Also it could be repeated on failed push. This is incorrect. Pushing is not a free action for a druid animal companion. Handling the animal, which is normally a move action, is free for druid and range animal companion's. Pushing them is not. Pushing them is a move action. . (A druid or ranger can handle her animal companion as a free action or push it as a move action.) Also: A druid or ranger gains a +4 circumstance bonus on Handle Animal checks involving her animal companion. The following text is listed in both the Handling an animal and Pushing an animal portion of the Handle Animal skill description: . If your check succeeds, the animal performs the task or trick on its next action. Since it does not specifically state that it will continue until directed to do something else, I would hypotheize that the check must be performed every round, and the animal will then perform the action on his next action if successful. Normally, if something is going to continue until changed (such as a spell duration, magical effect, etc), it will say so. Since the HA skill makes no mention of it, I can only assume that a check must be made every round. Since the "Try Again" portion of the skill description indicates that every portion of the HA skill can be tried again except for rearing an animal, this would also lead me to believe that the checks must be made every round. However, there is no specific statement one way or the other within the HA skill. It would certainly be just as logical to assume that a check is only needed when the action of the animal is changed. I would guess that an Elder ruling for your fight will be necessary, and would also suggest posting this question in the Ask an Elder thread, so that a formal ruling can be made and it can be added to the Court Decisions post for the future. |
| SauroGrenom02-18-06, 12:17 PM | I'm working on it. I slapped myself when I saw the SoT after moving around at the base speed and I didn't notice the move silently at first. Your points directly reflect how I am running it right now though, so everything should be okay when finished. The new version looks good to me at first glance. It would be nice to put in Kracknol's crafting income as well. The gp amount is listed on his sheet next to the craft skill. |
| Sindorin02-18-06, 12:18 PM | The new version looks good to me at first glance. It would be nice to put in Kracknol's crafting income as well. The gp amount is listed on his sheet next to the craft skill. Sure thing, I will get right on that. |
| Zevox02-18-06, 12:22 PM | @ Kedi - Satyricon's tactics recieved, thank you. The challenge match will be up sometime this afternoon or tonight, depending on when I get my reading homework finished. Zevox |
| Sindorin02-18-06, 12:24 PM | Kracknol vs. Shakari (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8501622&postcount=249) is finished. |
| SauroGrenom02-18-06, 12:41 PM | Since it does not specifically state that it will continue until directed to do something else, I would hypotheize that the check must be performed every round, and the animal will then perform the action on his next action if successful. Normally, if something is going to continue until changed (such as a spell duration, magical effect, etc), it will say so. Since the HA skill makes no mention of it, I can only assume that a check must be made every round. Since the "Try Again" portion of the skill description indicates that every portion of the HA skill can be tried again except for rearing an animal, this would also lead me to believe that the checks must be made every round. However, there is no specific statement one way or the other within the HA skill. It would certainly be just as logical to assume that a check is only needed when the action of the animal is changed. I would guess that an Elder ruling for your fight will be necessary, and would also suggest posting this question in the Ask an Elder thread, so that a formal ruling can be made and it can be added to the Court Decisions post for the future. I bought this up a Long...Long...Long time ago when Rebreg fought his first fight againts a mounted opponent. I searched and asked around to discover the durration of the handle an animal effect and the effect that wounding the animal has on previous checks. Eventually I asked Cat and he said that in his opinion the check only needs to be made once every time the creature's actions are to be changed. Any other way of handeling it seriously nerfs druids, mounted fighters, and rangers. It would also drasticially increase the complexity of fights with animals. Some bards have many animal allies, imagine the number of checks that would need to be made if the checks were made every round. The handle animal skill description is kind of messy and I have trouble making sense of all the various things that are implied by the various tricks. For example there is the down trick that says: Down (DC 15): The animal breaks off from combat or otherwise backs down. An animal that doesn’t know this trick continues to fight until it must flee (due to injury, a fear effect, or the like) or its opponent is defeated. This implies that the animals will flee due to injury. However how much injury forces a check is not clear. Also whether the handler can make another check to stop the animal from fleeing (and granting AoO's) is unclear. Even if the checks need to be made every round, it's not hard for druids and rangers to get a good enough HA check to always succeed with there animal companions (+4bonus). However there are several other builds that would suffer tremendously with this kind of ruling. The bards that have packs of dogs (rats!!!) are the best example I can think of that would be totally nerfed by your interpretation of this skill. A 3rd level bard would have trouble getting a HA check of atleast 9 (11 if wounded) so that he could auto succeed handling his pack of dogs. Also if he has to make a check each round, then he will have only enough actions to handle two of them not a whole pack. Anyway your suggestion is very different from the way it has been run around here for a long while. If you want to fight a war on that mole hill then I won't stop or argue you, but I suspect you'll get "attacked" by many players with "pet" builds. |
| Mal-202-18-06, 12:52 PM | It would certainly be just as logical to assume that a check is only needed when the action of the animal is changed. I would guess that an Elder ruling for your fight will be necessary, and would also suggest posting this question in the Ask an Elder thread, so that a formal ruling can be made and it can be added to the Court Decisions post for the future. This is the interpretation that I went with, as I haven't seen anyone forcing "Handle an Animal" checks once per round to perform tricks the animals already know. I'll bring it up in the ask an Elder thread for a later ruling. I would like to address your comment that a formal ruling is required before the fight can be finalized. If I make a rules call as a pitlord that doesn't directly violate either the rules as written or our official rulings, I think it should stand, no matter what an elder later decides. |
| Turin02-18-06, 01:14 PM | THERE ARE NO ROLLS AT THE LINK AT THE TOP OF THE FIGHT.Figured it out... a typo in the link... it's been fixed. I have learned a valuable lesson with this this fight. 1) Write ninety pages of tactics if you are going to enter arena fights. 2)Stop entering arena fights. I appreciate the time it takes to run fights, and as such I am going to stop wasting everyone's time with my fighters. It isn't worth my irritation at having to be a witch and ask for corrections to every fight, and it isn't worth the effort it takes for pitlords to run a fight and then have it shot to pieces.You know what this ---> . is? It's the world's tinest violin, and it's playing just for you. I had written a rather lengthy post addressing each of your tactics points item by item once more, but then I read this part of your post. If you're going to do this "well then, I'm taking my toys and going home" crap that I would expect from my three-year-old, then good. Maybe we'll get a few more pitlords in here now that they won't have to put up with this kind of garbage. I know you read the Discussion: Pitlording thread... did you think the discussion didn't apply to you somehow? You tell me you want to charge right in. Then you tell me you want to sit around drinking healing potions for 3 rounds while getting shot at. Then you wonder why I have to make an interpretation of those contradictory tactics. Then you get an attitude about it. Am I missing anything here? :nonono: |
| Abyssal Stalker02-18-06, 01:27 PM | Oh, my... this bad luck is killing me every week... I just found one thing: in round 9, does Loddick use his DeepCrystal bow for extra damage? If so, he can't do that, since it's required 2pp to fuel the bow, and he has only one left. This could give Valek a few rounds more to try to slice his opponent... Darn...you're right about that. I have to go and fix things. I also noticed that the Vigor shoud've been 2pps. Editing seems to me a proper solution in this one. The fight will last longer, and if the dice turns on your side, things might change. You really had some bad luck. I'll just go and edit things. |
| NiQil02-18-06, 01:49 PM | This is the interpretation that I went with, as I haven't seen anyone forcing "Handle an Animal" checks once per round to perform tricks the animals already know. I'll bring it up in the ask an Elder thread for a later ruling. I would like to address your comment that a formal ruling is required before the fight can be finalized. If I make a rules call as a pitlord that doesn't directly violate either the rules as written or our official rulings, I think it should stand, no matter what an elder later decides. No no...you misunderstood. I meant that you may want to get an Elder's opinion to fill your immediate need to finish your fight, and then *after your fight was dealt with, you should post it in the Ask an Elder thread so that a formal ruling can be made. Sorry if it was poorly worded. @Sauro: I could care less which way it is ruled as long as it is done so that it can be consistantly applied. As to my interpretation...it's just my opinion. And as has been proven time and time again 'round these parts...my opinion means ****. |
| Gonbow02-18-06, 02:13 PM | Krayko vs Logan is up here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8505785&postcount=254). I'll get on my other fight for the week tomorrow, hope everyone is having an awesome weekend. :cool: |
| Luni02-18-06, 02:28 PM | Kracknol vs. Shakari (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8501622&postcount=249) is finished. Doesn't change anything, but how does his Psicrsytal aid him in his attack? The Psicrystal isn't threatening Shakari. |
| Abyssal Stalker02-18-06, 02:29 PM | Darn...you're right about that. I have to go and fix things. I also noticed that the Vigor shoud've been 2pps. Editing seems to me a proper solution in this one. The fight will last longer, and if the dice turns on your side, things might change. You really had some bad luck. I'll just go and edit things. Done! |
| Sindorin02-18-06, 02:30 PM | Doesn't change anything, but how does his Psicrsytal aid him in his attack? The Psicrystal isn't threatening Shakari. The crystal doesn't necessarily have to threaten Shakari in order to aid Kracknol per the rules of Aiding Another. All that the psi crystal has to do is touch Kracknol, which is easily accomplished since it is in his clothes. This is very similar to what Caterane was trying to do with the Harvester's rats... though I am sure that there are better ways of abusing Aid Another. |
| Vathelokai02-18-06, 02:40 PM | The crystal doesn't necessarily have to threaten Shakari in order to aid Kracknol per the rules of Aiding Another. All that the psi crystal has to do is touch Kracknol, which is easily accomplished since it is in his clothes. In melee combat, you can help a friend attack or defend by distracting or interfering with an opponent. If you’re in position to make a melee attack on an opponent that is engaging a friend in melee combat, you can attempt to aid your friend as a standard action. The crystal would have to be in Shakari's space to threaten her (I'm guessing that's what they mean by 'in a position to attack'). |
| Sindorin02-18-06, 02:48 PM | I guess what it could have done then was come out of the pocket and rest on his shoulder or something... maybe flash at Shakari as a distraction. Who knows... I never noticed that part of the aid another description... |
| Mal-202-18-06, 03:52 PM | Aerryl Nalladar vs Vivi Ornitier (ECL 4) is up! Featureing a swirling arial melee, and lots of bodies on the floor of the arena. Please take a look. |
| Erithmu02-18-06, 03:53 PM | Darn...you're right about that. I have to go and fix things. I also noticed that the Vigor shoud've been 2pps. Editing seems to me a proper solution in this one. The fight will last longer, and if the dice turns on your side, things might change. You really had some bad luck. I'll just go and edit things. Loddick vs Valek looks good from my angle, I'll give DSugui any other comments before I update. |
| MindWandererB02-18-06, 04:10 PM | Aerryl Nalladar vs Vivi Ornitier (ECL 4) is up! Featureing a swirling arial melee, and lots of bodies on the floor of the arena. Please take a look.Aside from the monumental stupidity in using Produce Flame in melee instead of ranged, and the complete omission of Entangle, it looks good. That was a much tougher fight than I expected. |
| Mal-202-18-06, 05:00 PM | Aside from the monumental stupidity in using Produce Flame in melee instead of ranged, and the complete omission of Entangle, it looks good. That was a much tougher fight than I expected. Well, I obviously disagree that those decisions were monumentaly stupid. I think that both were quite tactically sound, and in keeping with your submitted tactics. |
| MindWandererB02-18-06, 05:14 PM | Well, I obviously disagree that those decisions were monumentaly stupid. I think that both were quite tactically sound, and in keeping with your submitted tactics.Sorry; let me rephrase in a more helpful manner: Why did you have Aerryl use Produce Flame in melee instead of chucking it at range? I thought it was obvious that I wanted to use Produce Flame instead of other weapons so that the strength penalty wouldn't impact me. And why did you opt not to use Entangle? Re: pushing an animal to attack: obviously I'm biased here, since it's my character, but I figure if you have to command an animal to stop fighting (with the Down command), that they will otherwise continue until injured or frightened. Although I am also at a loss about exactly what "injured" means here. |
| Erithmu02-18-06, 05:16 PM | Gaston vs Kimarhi is up Fire and Electricity and Bears OH MY! or Gaston the cat in the tree with Cuddles the dog barking at him. |
| Mal-202-18-06, 05:26 PM | Sorry; let me rephrase in a more helpful manner: Why did you have Aerryl use Produce Flame in melee instead of chucking it at range? I thought it was obvious that I wanted to use Produce Flame instead of other weapons so that the strength penalty wouldn't impact me. And why did you opt not to use Entangle? Re: pushing an animal to attack: obviously I'm biased here, since it's my character, but I figure if you have to command an animal to stop fighting (with the Down command), that they will otherwise continue until injured or frightened. Although I am also at a loss about exactly what "injured" means here. Thank you. I had her move into melee so that you could pin Vivi between yourself and Predator. With him pinned between you, there was no where for him to go, and little he could do without drawing AoOs. Even with a strength penalty, you (obviously) had a credible chance to touch him, and get three extra attacks in from Prey. Had Vivi survived the attack in round 8, I would have had you withdraw to go to ranged combat with him. I opted to cast produce flame rather than entangle because entangling him would have left you to a ranged battle with a bow you didn't have the approriate strength for anymore. Produce flame gives you more options. You can use it in melee as a touch attack, and still have a decent chance to hit, or retreat to range and pelt him with the ranged touch attack. |
| Snommelp02-18-06, 05:30 PM | @Snommelp: Mercenaries are a bit… expensive. Yes, they are. Logan's had tough fights the past two weeks, though, so I wasn't expecting to fight against someone with the [Failure] tag. WAR makes 67 GP from the fight, and Logan makes 575 (675 -100 for Barak's payment). |
| MindWandererB02-18-06, 05:38 PM | Thank you. I had her move into melee so that you could pin Vivi between yourself and Predator. With him pinned between you, there was no where for him to go, and little he could do without drawing AoOs. Even with a strength penalty, you (obviously) had a credible chance to touch him, and get three extra attacks in from Prey. Had Vivi survived the attack in round 8, I would have had you withdraw to go to ranged combat with him. I opted to cast produce flame rather than entangle because entangling him would have left you to a ranged battle with a bow you didn't have the approriate strength for anymore. Produce flame gives you more options. You can use it in melee as a touch attack, and still have a decent chance to hit, or retreat to range and pelt him with the ranged touch attack.All right, I'll buy that. It's a little "out of character" for Aerryl, but it works. It was just a little more complicated than it appeared at first glance. Entangling him and chucking flames would have worked anyway, but it really doesn't matter. Sorry for sounding inflammatory before--I saw the 1d20-1 attack roll (which, BTW, omitted my BAB) and thought "what the heck?" without seeing the overall tactical picture. That's what "monumentally stupid" referred to, not to you personally. |
| Mal-202-18-06, 05:43 PM | All right, I'll buy that. It's a little "out of character" for Aerryl, but it works. It was just a little more complicated than it appeared at first glance. Entangling him and chucking flames would have worked anyway, but it really doesn't matter. You didn't have enough spell levels left to do both. Without instructions to use your expendables, I wasn't going to dip into them while I felt you were ahead in the fight. I felt that even with your reduced strength, you were in the superior position in melee versus Vivi, particularly flanking with Predator, and you had the manuverablity to break melee with him any time things turned against you. |
| MindWandererB02-18-06, 06:20 PM | You didn't have enough spell levels left to do both. Without instructions to use your expendables, I wasn't going to dip into them while I felt you were ahead in the fight. I felt that even with your reduced strength, you were in the superior position in melee versus Vivi, particularly flanking with Predator, and you had the manuverablity to break melee with him any time things turned against you.Actually, I did have the spell levels left. You appear to have marked one off in round 5 when I didn't actually cast anything. |
| Mal-202-18-06, 06:27 PM | Actually, I did have the spell levels left. You appear to have marked one off in round 5 when I didn't actually cast anything. Right you are, I made an accounting error when I backtracked in round 5. That would have changed my choices for Aerryl had I noticed it. If there are any potentially fight-altering problems, I'll pick it back up starting with Round 7 and take that into account. |
| Zevox02-18-06, 08:09 PM | The challenge match (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8507542&postcount=258) between Hennan the Orphan and Satyricon the Lord of Destruction is up. Lots of running about and hiding. Zevox |
| DSugui02-18-06, 08:18 PM | Loddick vs Valek looks good from my angle, I'll give DSugui any other comments before I update. Well... It seems Valek's AC is a little lower than I expected... Shouldn't it be 21 (22-2 rage+1 dodge)? Or am I missing something? If so, then is just my bad luck... |
| SauroGrenom02-18-06, 08:41 PM | Alright Perius vs Gundir is up. Poor Perius needs some help. Perhaps you can rethink the build and make some minor improvements. |
| Erithmu02-18-06, 10:23 PM | @nickbeat: RE: selene vs El I only have one major request is that you continue to blast with electric rays and not use the Deep crystal charge in my sword as per my tactics. I wrote them as such because it is easier to hit her with a touch attack than my normal melee attack. I also think you have my pp useage wrong. My vigor should have used 1 pp and then given me 15 hps (I have wildsurge +2) So I would still have 4 shots to take with energy ray. If you would please consider these and take a look at the fight again it would be appreciated or a response to these concerns. -Rith |
| nickbeat02-18-06, 10:27 PM | El'enees'ka (malakaiunseen) vs Selene (Erithmu) is up. I'm really amazed the the incredible dice luck. |
| nickbeat02-18-06, 11:27 PM | Yes, I took into account the wild surge +2 bonus PP. You had one PP left which could have been used at the end, but I improvised the blade because it would hold the damage until it hit. Either way you would have missed his touch AC on the first attack. I realized later that I forgot the Enervations. It turns out you got burnt on your second attack, so you would have 0 PP after that. The sword was your only hope, but alas the dice were under the thrall of Lolth herself. |
| ^Rayne^02-18-06, 11:51 PM | @Gonbow, I have one big question... Nowhere on Snowmelp's Character Sheet for Logan Granger did I see that he had a Mercenary Ally that he could bring in the fight. Shouldn't that be on his character sheet before he gets to use it in the Arena? Here is his character sheet... Logan Granger Male Human Lawful Good Fighter 3, ECL 3 XP: 4,475/6,000 Member of the Warfare Alliance [10% Earnings] STR...16 [+3]...(10 pts) DEX...16 [+3]...(10 pts) CON...18 [+4]...(16 pts) INT....8 [-1]...(0 pts) WIS...8 [-1]...(0 pts) CHA...8 [-1]...(0 pts) Hit Points: 33 [3d10+12] AC 20 [+3 dex +6 armor +1 shield], Touch 13, Flat 17 [+6 breastplate, +1 double weapon (feat)] +1 shield becomes +2 shield when in full defense or fighting defensively Initiative: +3 [3 dex] BAB/Grap: +3/+6 [+3 bab +3 str] Speed 20 [base 30, Medium Armor] Saves: Fort +8 [3 Ftr +4 Con +1 Item] Refl +5 [1 Ftr +3 Dex +1 Item] Will +1 [1 Ftr -1 Wis +1 Item] Attacks: Two-Bladed Sword, Cold-Iron Blade +7 Melee, 1d8+4 [19-20/x2] Two-Bladed Sword, Silvered Blade +7 Melee, 1d8+3 [19-20/x2] Two-Bladed Sword, Full Attack +5/+5 Melee, 1d8+3/1d8 or 1d8+2/1d8+1 [19-20/x2] Composite (+3) Longbow +7 Ranged, 1d8+3 [x3] 110 ft. range Feats: Endurance [human] Diehard [level 1] Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Two-Bladed Sword [bonus, Ftr 1] Two-Weapon Fighting [bonus, Ftr 2] Two-Weapon Defense [level 3] Racial and Class Abilities: Extra skill points and feat bonus feats Skills (12 Points Fighter): +6 Climb [6 ranks +3 Str -3 armor] +0 Hide [0 ranks +3 Dex -3 armor] +6 Jump [6 ranks +3 Str -3 armor] -1 Listen [0 ranks -1 Wis] +0 Move Silently [0 ranks +3 Dex -3 armor] -1 Spot [0 ranks -1 Wis] Speaks common Equipment: Wool shirt and pants [0 lbs][0 gp] +1 Breastplate [30 lbs][1,350 gp] Masterwork Two-Bladed Sword with Cold Iron blade and Silvered blade [10 lbs][840 gp] Masterwork (+3) Longbow [3 lbs][700 gp] Quiver with 99 arrows [15 lbs][5 gp] Cloak of Protection +1 [1 lbs][1,000 gp] Equipment at Home: Gold: 380 Miscellaneous Statistics: Encumbance: 0-76 (light), 77-153 (medium), 154-230 (heavy) Weight carried: 59 lb Character Background: Logan's father was a rancher (granger) and a shepherd. Growing up, Logan spent a lot of time out with the herds, protecting them from wolves with branches roughly the same size as quarterstaves. Eventually Logan's father started to get old, and as he knew that Logan was hardly clever enough to be a granger on his own, Logan's father sold the animals and bought a house, just outside of Gladius. Having no sheep or cows to protect any more, Logan became a junior gladiator and gained some small reputation in the lesser arenas; enough to be invited to the Coliseum, at any rate. Default Tactics Seek and destroy Fights results: Dueled with a Paladin to join WAR +600 XP, +600 GP [Quest run by MitzaVolchenko] Lost to Squall(Dr. Funk) "I need magic protection..." +375 XP, +375 GP [Fight run by Biota] Lost 4 man FFA "So close!" +300 XP, +300 GP [Fight run by Caterane] Past Expenditures Past Expenditures (tot. 0 gp): 1 arrow Where is the Merc. mentioned in his sheet? I don't see it... So is a player allowed to use something that isn't on their sheet before the fight? -Also one other detail that I want to mention. After my PC cast Mage Armor you never bumped his AC up to 20. You left it at 17 which isn't accurate. It wouldn't help against an attack of 30 from Barak (but does he even get to use a Mercenary that isn't found anywhere on his character sheet). I didn't even know to write up tactics against Logan and his ally because I didn't even know he had one. The merc. seems like a BIG problem to me. I don't see its stats or any information that he even has one. As a player just trying to lose my way to the 4th level shouldn't I at least be able to see a combatants complete sheet? |
| Luni02-18-06, 11:56 PM | @Gonbow, I have one big question... Nowhere on Snowmelp's Character Sheet for Logan Granger did I see that he had a Mercenary Ally that he could bring in the fight. Shouldn't that be on his character sheet before he gets to use it in the Arena? Here is his character sheet... Where is the Merc. mentioned in his sheet? I don't see it... So is a player allowed to use something that isn't on their sheet before the fight? -Also one other detail that I want to mention. After my PC cast Mage Armor you never bumped his AC up to 20. You left it at 17 which isn't accurate. It wouldn't help against an attack of 30 from Barak (but does he even get to use a Mercenary that isn't found anywhere on his character sheet). I didn't even know to write up tactics against Logan and his ally because I didn't even know he had one. The merc. seems like a BIG problem to me. I don't see its stats or any information that he even has one. As a player just trying to lose my way to the 4th level shouldn't I at least be able to see a combatants complete sheet? It is on the header of his character sheet. - Ready February 15 - ECL 3 - Hiring Barak (ECL 1) It is also available for anyone to see here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5179887&postcount=6) on post 6 on the character thread. That said, this is the 3rd time out of 4 mercenaries behind hired that the opponent has no clue the mercenary was hired. I'll forward some thoughts on the subject to Cat. Maybe Pitlords will have to mention the mercenaries on the post announcing the fights. |
| Zevox02-19-06, 12:00 AM | @ ^Rayne^ Snommelp put in his post title line that he was hiring the mercenary, which is all he is required to do according to Mercenary Roster (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5179887) post. Zevox |
| ^Rayne^02-19-06, 12:16 AM | It is on the header of his character sheet. Quote: Originally Posted by Logan - Ready February 15 - ECL 3 - Hiring Barak (ECL 1) It is also available for anyone to see here on post 6 on the character thread. That said, this is the 3rd time out of 4 mercenaries behind hired that the opponent has no clue the mercenary was hired. I'll forward some thoughts on the subject to Cat. Maybe Pitlords will have to mention the mercenaries on the post announcing the fights. @ ^Rayne^ Snommelp put in his post title line that he was hiring the mercenary, which is all he is required to do according to Mercenary Roster post. Zevox What a freakn' sham! That sort of thing really doesn't sit well with me at all. I'm sorry but I feel like it was stealthed in under my nose. The rules may support it but I think it is a sly way to beat an unexpecting opponent. I can't believe something like this is even allowed in the rules. He didn't even need the stupid merc. to beat my PC but he had it do enough damage to my character to take him in one hit! I've posted before about the unfairness of Sorcerer builds at this level being unfairly handicapped and I get nothing. Then I get hood-winked and don't even know it is coming. Last week I post about problems with the damage die being too high in the grapple against my character and I don't get a word from the DM... I'm starting to get more than a little upset about how things are going here. I know my PC is basically worthless at this level but I hate feeling like I'm playing with the deck stacked against my PC when it doesn't need to be. He is bad enough without all of this sillyness to make it even harder. :( |
| Snommelp02-19-06, 12:17 AM | The merc. seems like a BIG problem to me. I don't see its stats or any information that he even has one. As a player just trying to lose my way to the 4th level shouldn't I at least be able to see a combatants complete sheet?As others have mentioned, I posted that I was hiring Barak in my header, and it was noted in the Mercenary roster. And now, here's my question: your tactics say "I don't have much in the way of a chance in heck of winning this one." This is when you apparently had no idea that Logan was hiring a mercenary. You had resigned yourself to defeat already; would your tactics have changed much (or at all) if you had known Logan was hiring a melee-oriented mercenary for the week? |
| Snommelp02-19-06, 12:22 AM | What a freakn' sham! That sort of thing really doesn't sit well with me at all. I'm sorry but I feel like it was stealthed in under my nose. The rules may support it but I think it is a sly way to beat an unexpecting opponent. I can't believe something like this is even allowed in the rules. He didn't even need the stupid merc. to beat my PC but he had it do enough damage to my character to take him in one hit! I've posted before about the unfairness of Sorcerer builds at this level being unfairly handicapped and I get nothing. Then I get hood-winked and don't even know it is coming. Last week I post about problems with the damage die being too high in the grapple against my character and I don't get a word from the DM... I'm starting to get more than a little upset about how things are going here. I know my PC is basically worthless at this level but I hate feeling like I'm playing with the deck stacked against my PC when it doesn't need to be. He is bad enough without all of this sillyness to make it even harder. :( Mercenaries are available for anyone to hire, and you can easily see which have been hired by just scrolling down in the character thread. I was in no way stealthy about this, because there is no way to be stealthy about this. And at this point it feels like I am simply being the target for your general frustration for the fact that your character isn't doing well. I say: suck it up. I've made characters who did terrible in the arena too. Did I complain and blame everyone else for my characters' failings? No. I retired the characters and moved on. |
| NiQil02-19-06, 12:29 AM | Since I didn't see a link for it, I'll put one up... Famine vs Ulfgar Ungart is up. @ klangley: Not fight affecting, but I did want to mention that in this fight, at the beginning (I forget the round number), you have the wolf ready an action, and then in the following action you have him charge. Charging is a full round action that cannot be performed on a ready action. If there are any changes that need to be made, bear that in mind. I didn't see any, however....at least nothing that jumped out at me that would be fight affecting. |
| Ravashack02-19-06, 12:33 AM | Alright Perius vs Gundir is up. Poor Perius needs some help. Perhaps you can rethink the build and make some minor improvements. Bah. I didn't think of invisibility. Oh well. In hindsight, I should have allowed use of the Deceleration tattoos too so that Perius could get away from the summons and the companion, but hindsight's always 20/20. An error in the comments: Total Defense is a standard action. I don't know why you feel that you can't use a move action when you do total defense--he should have been able to stand up while using Total Defense. Total Defense You can defend yourself as a standard action. You get a +4 dodge bonus to your AC for 1 round. Your AC improves at the start of this action. You can’t combine total defense with fighting defensively or with the benefit of the Combat Expertise feat (since both of those require you to declare an attack or full attack). You can’t make attacks of opportunity while using total defense. What you can't do in Total Defense is take AOOs, fight defensively, or use Combat Expertise, as the section dictates. Nothing about preventing a move action. Commentary on the advice: Thanks for the comment about post and the forgotten enchanting edit. I'll be sure to edit those in when I have the time. I have no credits. AFAIK, questing requires credits. Therefore any option that involves credit usage I cannot take at all. Mithril Full Plate eliminates the usage of Tumble completely. In addition, Wilders do not have any proficiency in Medium/Heavy armor. That means he will take a -3 (rather than -6 because of the Mithril) to attacks and all Strength and Dexterity based checks, versus a -0 now. On top of that, Perius is barely at his weight limit for Light encumbrance. Full Plate, Mithril or otherwise, is still going to be heavier than what he has now. Throw in the expense on top of that and this isn't really an option for Perius. I considered buying a potion of invisibility or a potion of fly. However, I also have to consider whether it really would have helped me enough to matter--if he can only win a fight by burning enough expendables to come out with a pathetic amount of profit or worse(this fight would have required Touchsight, Invisibility and Fly to live, which totals 1425 gp in expendables, for a total profit of... 175 gp?), I'd rather he lose and not use up any at all. That's also why I'm not exactly too pleased with the thought of buying more expendables to buff, and thus add more time spent before looking around. Otherwise he could buy an elemental summoning gem to summon an air elemental for 2kish gold and simply use that when he needs a trump card. That doesn't mean I won't use expendables; I just don't find it worthwhile that way. Psionic Endowment and Greater Psionic Endowment are actually pretty pointless for Perius overall. I got Ego Whip in the first place because I've lost track of how many fights where it would have helped immensely because I was up against a Cha dump stat opponent with bad or so-so Will saves. If he manages to save up enough for a Ego Whip Dorje to supplement his normal supply he won't care about high Will save Cha dump opponents anymore either. He got the Psionic Shot feat as PPless damage to apply to his crossbow. Deep Crystal items on the other hand cost PP. If I want to burn PP to deal direct damage, I could get the Crystal Shard power and fire 1 PP Crystal Shards with Wild Surge tacked on for the same thing at better efficiency (no DR worries) and to-hit (ranged touch rather than ranged). |
| MindWandererB02-19-06, 12:51 AM | Mercenaries are available for anyone to hire, and you can easily see which have been hired by just scrolling down in the character thread. I was in no way stealthy about this, because there is no way to be stealthy about this. And at this point it feels like I am simply being the target for your general frustration for the fact that your character isn't doing well. I say: suck it up. I've made characters who did terrible in the arena too. Did I complain and blame everyone else for my characters' failings? No. I retired the characters and moved on.Frustrated or not, it's kind of silly to force every player to check the mercenaries roster every week; it's an extra place they have to look that they might not consider, considering the relative rarity of merc hires. I have to admit I have never checked it, although I would notice if if it were in the character's header. I think adding this info to the pairings would prevent a lot of grief in the future. |
| lonewolf02-19-06, 12:53 AM | Vandelar the Red (SoulLord) vs. Talari Leafwhisperer (Luni) is up. Rewards are still missing, but I will fill them in as soon as I can. Ladies and gentlemen, start your complaints! :rolleyes: |
| Vathelokai02-19-06, 01:07 AM | Vandelar the Red (SoulLord) vs. Talari Leafwhisperer (Luni) is up. Rewards are still missing, but I will fill them in as soon as I can. Ladies and gentlemen, start your complaints! :rolleyes: Can't speak for tactics, but the only rules mistake I see is in round 5. The griffon concentrates on scent then attacks. It should spend a move action moving, then a move action 'scenting'. Since the griffon has 'average' flight capability it has to keep moving forward at half speed or fall out of the sky. When a creature detects a scent, the exact location of the source is not revealed—only its presence somewhere within range. The creature can take a move action to note the direction of the scent. Since it missed, it dosn't change anything. Just thought I'd mention it. |
| Gonbow02-19-06, 01:07 AM | What a freakn' sham! That sort of thing really doesn't sit well with me at all. I'm sorry but I feel like it was stealthed in under my nose. The rules may support it but I think it is a sly way to beat an unexpecting opponent. I can't believe something like this is even allowed in the rules. He didn't even need the stupid merc. to beat my PC but he had it do enough damage to my character to take him in one hit! I've posted before about the unfairness of Sorcerer builds at this level being unfairly handicapped and I get nothing. Then I get hood-winked and don't even know it is coming. Last week I post about problems with the damage die being too high in the grapple against my character and I don't get a word from the DM... I'm starting to get more than a little upset about how things are going here. I know my PC is basically worthless at this level but I hate feeling like I'm playing with the deck stacked against my PC when it doesn't need to be. He is bad enough without all of this sillyness to make it even harder. :( Well, as I noted in your tactics, you seem to have missed the fact that he was hiring the merc; this is why I repeat the title line in the body of my character. This isn't mandatory, but it cuts down on DMs and other Players missing things that are important there and I highly suggest it. What it comes down to is, you are really at a heavy disadvantage at the moment. CoCo enviroment rewards the following kinds of characters. 1. Undetectable. (Caveat: DM's definition of meaningful interaction) 2. One-hit kills. (Psionics are notorious for this, be it Caster or Melee or Grapple) 3. Extremely versatile spell-casters. (Oft accomplished via reusing spell slots with PoPs or Scrolls) 4. Extremely versatile expendable users. Your character doesn't fit into any of these archetypes. He is much closer to another archetype, but isn't geared toward this one either. 5. Money-maker. Loses all battles and makes money off of various skill uses to increase money ratio by the time he gets to 'important' brackets, where he starts kicking ass with superior equipment. Now, personally I think your sorcerer has potential. At high levels, the difference between 17 spell levels available and 19 available isn't all that much. (Random example, it has no meaning) But right now, as in a traditional D&D game, your weak. Stick with it for awhile longer and things will get better. I'd suggest you maneuver your character towards one of these archetypes to improve your chances, but that's just me. |
| Vathelokai02-19-06, 01:10 AM | double post |
| Erithmu02-19-06, 03:19 AM | Yes, I took into account the wild surge +2 bonus PP. You had one PP left which could have been used at the end, but I improvised the blade because it would hold the damage until it hit. Either way you would have missed his touch AC on the first attack. I realized later that I forgot the Enervations. It turns out you got burnt on your second attack, so you would have 0 PP after that. The sword was your only hope, but alas the dice were under the thrall of Lolth herself. Ok, also I sent you a PM before I read this. Feel free to ignore as most of the information there is irrelevant. As for dice rolls I got all my lucky ones for this week in my dragon fight. |
| King Uther02-19-06, 04:42 AM | Tiris vs Dronnar vs War is up. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8510954&postcount=263) Was a very interesting fight to run. I had a blast with it. There were a couple of issues I had to deal with, but in the end there was a clear victor. |
| Abyssal Stalker02-19-06, 04:50 AM | Well... It seems Valek's AC is a little lower than I expected... Shouldn't it be 21 (22-2 rage+1 dodge)? Or am I missing something? If so, then is just my bad luck... I realized this after I had done the 2nd edition. The thing is, you are not using your shield. You didn't mention it in your tactics, but it bothers me quite a lot. I've been thinking this and it seems to me that Valek should've been using it since it seems an important part of his character concept. I realize that it will probably change the outcome of the fight. Erithmu, I hope you don't feel cheated. I tried to play the both characters with their best abilities and I have failed to do this on Valek's part. I will change the fight and see what comes up. DSugui, next time when you write your tactics, it would be helpful if you were more specific with the equipment you wish to use. I hope you both are patient with me. Next week I promise to do better :) |
| NiQil02-19-06, 05:16 AM | Tiris vs Dronnar vs War is up. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8510954&postcount=263) Was a very interesting fight to run. I had a blast with it. There were a couple of issues I had to deal with, but in the end there was a clear victor. Some issues that I see...I am guessing a lot of these were caused because of the buff you missed and had to correct. In round 4, per your ruling, Tiris should not have been able to draw the shield scroll, since his move was spent finding Bull's Strength, and his standard was spent casting it. This doesn't end up affecting anything, because he spends round 5 casting Shield, which is where he should have drawn it. But I figured I would mention it. In round 6, you have Tiris cast Exp Retreat from a scroll. This should encompass both his move and standard action that round (as per your ruling), meaning he could not also move and could not also draw his greatsword in that round. The only movement available would be a 5 ft step. In round 7, because he would not have moved nor drawn a weapon in round 6, Tiris would not be able to charge because he has no weapon drawn. The best he could do is a double move. This will cause actions from here on out to cascade downward each round (both movement and attacks), which should cause War to gain an extra attack or two, which could very well change the fight, since Tiris was already hurt. Also, in round 9, I am unsure why you have me withdrawing. I should be healing, as per my healing condition. Retreating is fine, but it should be a move and heal. The same is true in round 10. Both rounds I should have been healing, as per my tactics. Depending on the rolls there, this also could keep War alive, especially when combined with the above issues about the extra actions. Even if War dies, this could still impact the battle between Dronnar and Tiris, as it could impact the hp that Tiris has when Dronnar engages him. |
| Abyssal Stalker02-19-06, 05:40 AM | I have corrected things in the Loddick vs Valek fight. I'm sorry for Valek, but nothing could help him against that "horrid aberration"... :surrender Seriously, I think that everything is correct now and I hope that both of you, DSugui and Erithmu, are cool with the outcome. |
| DSugui02-19-06, 06:01 AM | Tiris vs Dronnar vs War is up. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8510954&postcount=263) Was a very interesting fight to run. I had a blast with it. There were a couple of issues I had to deal with, but in the end there was a clear victor. Well, besides the notes from NIqil above, the fight is ok by me. There's nothing much one can do against a full buffed cleric... Just a note: it seems there's a misplaced line in round 5. Tiris action from round 7 appears there for some odd reason. I'd like you added Dronnar's Free Activity as well. Thanks |
| DSugui02-19-06, 08:54 AM | I have corrected things in the Loddick vs Valek fight. I'm sorry for Valek, but nothing could help him against that "horrid aberration"... :surrender Seriously, I think that everything is correct now and I hope that both of you, DSugui and Erithmu, are cool with the outcome. The fight is fine by me now. As I always say: one cannot beat the dice. He got two nat 20, and I hit just one when I needed only 12 to hit... |
| Warclone02-19-06, 11:20 AM | Tiris vs Dronnar vs War is up. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8510954&postcount=263) Was a very interesting fight to run. I had a blast with it. There were a couple of issues I had to deal with, but in the end there was a clear victor. Very nicely run fight. I have no problems with it (as it is now). One irrelevant thing I noticed: I very possibly would have used my luck reroll somewhere there (but once agiain no problem as the fight stands now). Also if the fight were to continue Tiris might heal (obviously I was stupid and rushed and didnt include that in my tactics, but I also didn't preculde if he gets more hurt and you think its the right thing to do) since he has spare spells. |
| King Uther02-19-06, 12:08 PM | @NiQil, DSugui, Warclone When I went back to edit in the shield I ended accidentally leaving in a few actions because they happened earlier. The fight is not in fact delayed as NiQil suggested, as after casting a spell from a scroll Tiris could have drawn the next. I edited that in to show what I was thinking. I had War heal, but then he died 1 round quicker and never got to attack Tiris for 7 damage. That means Tiris ends the fight with 14hp, and not 7. If there's anything else, feel free to PM me. |
| waywreth02-19-06, 12:35 PM | Tsiuzues vs. Monster is up! (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8488748&postcount=238) |
| malakaiunseen02-19-06, 01:25 PM | Theoricus vs. Sappho the Barbarian [ECL3] (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8512731&postcount=265) is up. This was my first fight pitlorded. It seemed so long(I think it took me over 20 hours sitting at my computer to complete), I think thats just cause there was a lot of running away, and extra creatures to deal with. I have never used psionics before, either at home or here at Real Adventures, so that was pretty new to me- spent a loooot of time looking stuff up on the SRD. If anyone a bit more experienced wants to look the fight over and give me some feedback, that would be appreciated. Ta, Kai. |
| NiQil02-19-06, 02:50 PM | @NiQil, DSugui, Warclone When I went back to edit in the shield I ended accidentally leaving in a few actions because they happened earlier. The fight is not in fact delayed as NiQil suggested, as after casting a spell from a scroll Tiris could have drawn the next. I edited that in to show what I was thinking. I had War heal, but then he died 1 round quicker and never got to attack Tiris for 7 damage. That means Tiris ends the fight with 14hp, and not 7. If there's anything else, feel free to PM me. Looks much cleaner now that the extraneous actions have been taken out. Seems correct from my end. However, can you edit the final summary to reflect the changes? War now firest a total of 6 arrows (with one connection), meaning I need recovery chance rolls on 5 arrows, and War used 2 charges of the CLW wand instead of one. |
| Biota02-19-06, 02:57 PM | Part one is here and part two is here. Lots of pets and air guitar in this one. I never realized that 50,000 characters was the max for a post. Biota |
| Biota02-19-06, 03:15 PM | Theoricus vs. Sappho the Barbarian [ECL3] (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8512731&postcount=265) is up. This was my first fight pitlorded. It seemed so long(I think it took me over 20 hours sitting at my computer to complete), I think thats just cause there was a lot of running away, and extra creatures to deal with. I have never used psionics before, either at home or here at Real Adventures, so that was pretty new to me- spent a loooot of time looking stuff up on the SRD. If anyone a bit more experienced wants to look the fight over and give me some feedback, that would be appreciated. Ta, Kai. The fight looks good to me. I know what you mean about fights taking a long time to run. I probably spent 6 or 7 hours total running my fight yesterday. For myself I can only imagine it will take less time after running more fights and getting more sure of the rules. I feel like I have to be absolutely certain of the rules all the time when running fights here because I'm the only one looking at them. When playing pen and paper the other folks at the table would correct me if I was wrong and if we get something wrong its no big deal. I had a bot[sic] of trouble calculating distance at some stages. @MMalakaiunseen For calculating distances do you know about this tool? http://wormhole.ath.cx/coco/coco_dist.php |
| MindWandererB02-19-06, 03:37 PM | Part one is here and part two is here.Some of the movement is a bit sloppy: with what you have indicated, there would be some extra AoOs (r3: Evaine against Cotton, r4: Cotton against Evaine). And yes, by court rulings you can crit on the initial touch attack to grapple, and if you confirm, your first grapple does double damage. Everyone needs to have contingencies for grappling. I should add that to my defaults. |
| Biota02-19-06, 04:07 PM | Some of the movement is a bit sloppy: with what you have indicated, there would be some extra AoOs (r3: Evaine against Cotton, r4: Cotton against Evaine). And yes, by court rulings you can crit on the initial touch attack to grapple, and if you confirm, your first grapple does double damage. Everyone needs to have contingencies for grappling. I should add that to my defaults. r3: Yeah, I didn't handle this consistently, arguably cotton has cover when moving through Mittens square. r4: This is a problem with the mapping utility, Evaine can actually move around the threatened squares of Cotton. It would be sweet if the mapper could take more waypoints. Also if it could take more than 6 or so creatures. Thanks for the info on the grapple crit thing, I thought I had read that somewhere. Biota |
| Skojar02-19-06, 04:23 PM | And yes, by court rulings you can crit on the initial touch attack to grapple, and if you confirm, your first grapple does double damage. The new Sage Advice column in Dragon states otherwise...can we get this looked at again, as it implies a number of problematic situations. I would argue against it simply on the basis that it is counter-intuative. The initial touch attack is to initiate the grapple, not to deal damage. |
| MindWandererB02-19-06, 04:26 PM | The new Sage Advice column in Dragon states otherwise...can we get this looked at again, as it implies a number of problematic situations. I would argue against it simply on the basis that it is counter-intuative. The initial touch attack is to initiate the grapple, not to deal damage.Unfortunately, not all of us have access to Sage Advice, only to whatever part of it makes it into the FAQ. Can you summarize the argument? |
| Begferdeth02-19-06, 04:33 PM | @Biota: Thanks for the pitlording! I only saw two small mistakes (other than maybe movement, Im not even going to try and understand it :D)... Fjord is wearing spiky armor. He does extra damage in grapples. Not a biggie here though, since he was going for pins. Also, summons off of the scrolls dont get to be augmented. Kinda sucks, but oh well. Ill definitely include the stats for the intended summons in the next bunch of tactics :) |
| NiQil02-19-06, 04:44 PM | @Biota: Thanks for the pitlording! I only saw two small mistakes (other than maybe movement, Im not even going to try and understand it :D)... Fjord is wearing spiky armor. He does extra damage in grapples. Not a biggie here though, since he was going for pins. Also, summons off of the scrolls dont get to be augmented. Kinda sucks, but oh well. Ill definitely include the stats for the intended summons in the next bunch of tactics :) Armor spikes do not do extra damage in a grapple. Either you attack with armor spikes using the 'attack an opponent' action at a -4 penalty to your attack roll, since they are classified as a light weapon, or you use the 'damage an opponent' action to deal damage in a grapple. You cannot do both. See the Court Decisions post for further information. |
| Skojar02-19-06, 05:07 PM | It turns out my fight took about zero time this week. I think I can squeeze in another if there's one noone will get to. Unfortunately, not all of us have access to Sage Advice, only to whatever part of it makes it into the FAQ. Can you summarize the argument? The question as quoted is actually: 'can you score a critical hit with a grapple check made to damage your opponent?'. Now clearly, the answer is no, as it is an opposed check, rather than an attack roll, but the brevity of the Sage's answer (which is simply: 'no that is an opposed roll, not an attack') implies that the idea that a critical hit on the inital touch attack has any bearing at all never even occurred to him. My argument would be that if if one argues that the critical hit in the initial touch attack carries over to the damage, why limit it to just the first damage? Its seems that you must either say 'a critical hit on the initial touch attack means that all damage dealt in the grapple is multiplied' or 'the initial touch attack is simply to initiate the grapple, and is unrelated to any damage dealt later'. The latter just makes more sense to me, and the former puts the person that starts the grapple at a significant, possibly absurd, advantage. I would add that the idea of connecting the two at all never even crossed my mind and I was quite suprised to be informed of the ruling, and that it is my general position that if the idea behind a houseruling is completely foreign to the average player, isn't meant to make the arena run more smoothly, and can't be supported directly by the text, it shouldn't be instituted in a 'core' gaiming environment. |
| Begferdeth02-19-06, 09:44 PM | Extra damage, replaces the damage... either way, he shouldnt do 1d4 damage in there. Armor spikes do not do extra damage in a grapple. Either you attack with armor spikes using the 'attack an opponent' action at a -4 penalty to your attack roll, since they are classified as a light weapon, or you use the 'damage an opponent' action to deal damage in a grapple. You cannot do both. See the Court Decisions post for further information. |
| Biota02-19-06, 10:13 PM | Extra damage, replaces the damage... either way, he shouldnt do 1d4 damage in there. Normal unarmed damage for a medium creature is 1d3, I figured it would go up by one dice type for your being large at the time. That is why you were doing 1d4. Biota |
| NiQil02-19-06, 10:19 PM | It turns out my fight took about zero time this week. I think I can squeeze in another if there's one noone will get to. The question as quoted is actually: 'can you score a critical hit with a grapple check made to damage your opponent?'. Now clearly, the answer is no, as it is an opposed check, rather than an attack roll, but the brevity of the Sage's answer (which is simply: 'no that is an opposed roll, not an attack') implies that the idea that a critical hit on the inital touch attack has any bearing at all never even occurred to him. My argument would be that if if one argues that the critical hit in the initial touch attack carries over to the damage, why limit it to just the first damage? Its seems that you must either say 'a critical hit on the initial touch attack means that all damage dealt in the grapple is multiplied' or 'the initial touch attack is simply to initiate the grapple, and is unrelated to any damage dealt later'. The latter just makes more sense to me, and the former puts the person that starts the grapple at a significant, possibly absurd, advantage. I would add that the idea of connecting the two at all never even crossed my mind and I was quite suprised to be informed of the ruling, and that it is my general position that if the idea behind a houseruling is completely foreign to the average player, isn't meant to make the arena run more smoothly, and can't be supported directly by the text, it shouldn't be instituted in a 'core' gaiming environment. You seem to be forgetting one key element here. If you are making an initial touch attack to start a grapple, then you are only dealing damage one time in that round with a grapple check. In consequent rounds, you are no longer making a touch attack to start a grapple, because you are already *in a grapple. Beginning a grapple is a full round action, so only one grapple check is made in the round that the touch attack occurs. There isn't any extra damage from other grapple checks in the round the touch attack occurs in. As to your statement of not being supported directly by the text, let me provide some: Critical Hits: When you make an attack roll and get a natural 20 (the d20 shows 20), you hit regardless of your target’s Armor Class, and you have scored a threat. The hit might be a critical hit (or “crit”). To find out if it’s a critical hit, you immediately make a critical roll—another attack roll with all the same modifiers as the attack roll you just made. If the critical roll also results in a hit against the target’s AC, your original hit is a critical hit. (The critical roll just needs to hit to give you a crit. It doesn’t need to come up 20 again.) If the critical roll is a miss, then your hit is just a regular hit. A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is x2. Unless you can prove otherwise, the initial roll to start a grapple is a melee touch attack, and is therefore subject to any rules that govern attack rolls, including criticals. This is also the reason things like the Weapon Finesse feat applies to the modifier used to make this initial touch attack roll....because Weapon Finesse applies to any attack roll. Now...is this an unusual circumstance? Yes. Won't deny that. I can't think of any other attack that requires another roll between the attack roll and the damage roll to actually deal damage. But rolling a 20 on the initial touch attack meets all the requirements of potentially scoring a critical hit. In summary, anything that requires an attack roll has the potential to score a critical hit, be it melee, ranged, special, spell or power. |
| King Uther02-19-06, 10:41 PM | @NiQil I edited into the fight, but you recovered 4 arrows. |
| Skojar02-19-06, 11:32 PM | You seem to be forgetting one key element here.... In summary, anything that requires an attack roll has the potential to score a critical hit, be it melee, ranged, special, spell or power. I'm not forgetting anything. I completely understand your argument and disagree, on these grounds: The damage dealt during a grapple is a result of the opposed roll. When engaged in a grapple, you can make a grapple check to deal damage. These rolls are all handled the same (except for the single exception this ruling creates) If it is acceptable look back through the chain of events to find an attack roll that led to a situation, then there seems to be no basis to tie the first grapple check to the initiating touch attack any more or less than any consequent grapple checks. There is no text that specifically supports either view, so I choose to accept the simpler, least problematic, and most intuitive interpretation. I sited the Sage Advice answer specifically becuase of the usual nature of FAQ answers. If it was generally understood that a critical hit with the initial touch attack multiplies any of the damage, then I would have expected the Sage to expand on his answer to explain that. Because he did not, I presume that he is as ignorant as I of what motivation there might be to create such a connection. Again, I stress that I cannot prove that you are wrong, but also feel that you cannot prove that you are right. Therefore, it is a matter up for discussion, worthy of seeing which view people think is more reasonable, rather than something that should just be answered with 'It has been ruled thus.' That there is a ruling is not up for debate. The wisdom of that ruling should be. The very fact that, as you say, this ruling creates a unique type of attack that is not elaborated in the rules should give us pause. Taking my view avoids this, as the resulting approach would mean that players and PitLords can just go through the SRD explanation of a grapple, or the Rules of the Game article, follow what it says, and be just fine. Taking your view means that they have to do the above, but also check in with the various places where Gladius rulings are posted to discover the whole new rule. I only bring this up because I think that the closer we stay to the most easily accessed rules the better will be the CoCo. Conversely, the more rulings that go against those rules or legitimize what seem to me to be goldbergian readings, the more alienating and stressful the environment. If you took a vote of who had honestly ever heard of this interpretation before seeing the ruling, I would wager that the number would be low. If people can't be expected to anticipate a rule before entering the arena, then (in my opinion) it needs to either to be clearly supported by the rules or clearly intended to benefit the flow of arena combat. Because nothing in the rules can be quoted that specifically spells out this interpretation, it should need to be inteded to benefit the CoCo (like the 1/3 rule, or expendable limitations, etc) or not be instituted. |
| Ariel2302-19-06, 11:37 PM | @Biota Despite whatever my complaints/concerns might be, I thank you for running the fight, and I think you did a good job. Running a pack of dogs is no easy matter. Now, don't get me wrong, that's Fjord's fault, not mine, but I still appreciate it. :cheer: It's 2 tricks to have dogs attack Aberrations, otherwise they must be pushed... I would feel bad about this if the dog was a true animal companion, bonding with Fjord for life. (Or if there were only one dog, LOL!) Well, also my opponent stands to benefit from the same rule in his own fights. (Not in this particular fight, obviously.) Round 5: Fjord might be invisible, but Evaine knows the last square he was in before casting his spell, as he couldn't move after. Her tactics were very specific about always going for him whenever possible. I'm not sure how far he moved, but it looks like 20' and the furthest he can go is 15' while tumbling. I don't think that matters, though. I don't see any Listen checks while Fjord is moving, singing, casting, dog handling, etc while invisible. Evaine would always attack with a pinpoint and take the 50/50. At +7 Listen vs +2 Move Silently it's not impossible to pinpoint, although it's unlikely. In Round 15, how would he even get his dogs to move out of the way without making noise? I'm sure it wouldn't matter for the outcome, but these are not animal companions. |
| Snommelp02-19-06, 11:45 PM | All three of my characters won this week. Either Shaz or Ch'ch'ili shared that winning streak in this fight. |
| Ariel2302-20-06, 12:24 AM | I also think you have my pp useage wrong. My vigor should have used 1 pp and then given me 15 hps (I have wildsurge +2) Does it ever read to anybody else like the only way the Wilder's surge works is if the power is being maxed out? If not, read it again. It explicitly says the surge pushes the power beyond what it normally could do, boosts manifester level, etc. It doesn't say that the wilder can boost powers when the wilder spends only 1 PP, it says that it will boost them beyond their maximum. I'm not saying this is true, but it always looks like it to me when I read it... Everyone will build a wilder then. LOL, I have to disagree. Wilders have been working that way forever and they are very hard to find. One in every 15 classes found in CoCo would be a Wilder if it were exactly as good as every other class. A 5th level Wilder knows three powers. A psion knows eleven. A sorcerer (the magical equivalent, sort of) knows twice as many (six). I found this example which proves you are all correct: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040215a&page=4This is a good example of why the SRD can sometimes be confusing. The XPH is very clear about how this works, because it has an example. But if you want examples, you have to buy the source material, I guess. Very clever, WotC. Unless you can prove otherwise, the initial roll to start a grapple is a melee touch attack, and is therefore subject to any rules that govern attack rolls, including criticals. . Yes, but the damage from that melee touch attack is zero. Critical touch damage would still be zero. I hate this interpretation. It didn't even seem to cross the Sage's mind. |
| MysticMonk200502-20-06, 01:25 AM | Danidus vs Ogre is up. |
| Luni02-20-06, 01:30 AM | Danidus vs Ogre is up. One small problem. Danidus has improved Trip. Benefit You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when you attempt to trip an opponent while you are unarmed. You also gain a +4 bonus on your Strength check to trip your opponent. If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt. That means, he gets to swing every time he trips the ogre. |
| MysticMonk200502-20-06, 01:35 AM | One small problem. Danidus has improved Trip. That means, he gets to swing every time he trips the ogre. <.< right my bad. fixing. Danidus Vs Ogre is fixed. |
| malakaiunseen02-20-06, 01:55 AM | @MMalakaiunseen For calculating distances do you know about this tool? http://wormhole.ath.cx/coco/coco_dist.php Thanks Bio, I didn't know about that. It should come in handy. |
| Kaigan02-20-06, 02:16 AM | @Turin: Your monster fight will be up tomorrow night. I was running it, and got fairly far, then found a mistake near the beginning, so I'm going to have to re-run it from there. I have no time at the moment, so if it's up late, so be it! Lol. Again, sorry for the lateness. Kaigan |
| Biota02-20-06, 02:39 AM | It's 2 tricks to have dogs attack Aberrations, otherwise they must be pushed... I would feel bad about this if the dog was a true animal companion, bonding with Fjord for life. (Or if there were only one dog, LOL!) Well, also my opponent stands to benefit from the same rule in his own fights. (Not in this particular fight, obviously.) Yes, that is a really good point. One of the comments I left for Begferdeth was a request for him to specify exactly what tricks his dogs know. His character sheet said they were trained for war (whatever that means) and it did list attack. Fjord has enough handle animal skill to teach the dogs the attack skill. Additionally being that they are listed as Guard Dogs in the SRD I assumed they come already knowing the Guard package. - From the SRD handle animal skill entry: Guarding: An animal trained to guard knows the tricks attack, defend, down, and guard. - From the Gladius rules: Normally, these animals come trained but you may optionally request them to be untrained. So the Gladius rules say that animals come trained, but don't say exactly how they are trained. I assumed the guard dog came trained with the guard package, which includes the attack trick. So now there is the question of whether the guard package which includes attack includes the double attack trick of just the single attack trick. Its kind of a mess. If someone can clarify I'd be thankful. One thing I did fail to do is make Fjord use a move action to direct the dogs to attack. Round 5: Fjord might be invisible, but Evaine knows the last square he was in before casting his spell, as he couldn't move after. Her tactics were very specific about always going for him whenever possible. Yeah, I may have messed up here, but the combination of the multiple AOOs you would have had to take to get to the square where Fjord dissapeared, and the fact that you didn't have Biofeedback up yet, and the fact that your tactics said, "Ignore conflicting tactics if I have a chance to kill Fjörd." But attacking an invisible foe with multiple dogs around didn't seem like great odds for Evaine. If Evaine had another +10 to listen or blind fighting or something then maybe she would have a better chance. Evaine also had a section on 'if Fjord is invisible or unreachable" in her tactics which said, "Use all buffs and kill all pets until he appears." So it was a judgement call, I really felt like Fjord was invisible and Evaine could really benefit from Biofeedback, so I had her withdraw to where she could cast it with minimum difficulty and then go after the dogs. I may have screwed up by not having her get to a better place to get her back to stone. I'm not sure how far he moved, but it looks like 20' and the furthest he can go is 15' while tumbling. I don't think that matters, though. I believe he only moved 15' feet while tumbling. But he only had to tumble the first square which would cost him 10' of movement, then he can move the rest at his normal movement rate. I don't see any Listen checks while Fjord is moving, singing, casting, dog handling, etc while invisible. Evaine would always attack with a pinpoint and take the 50/50. At +7 Listen vs +2 Move Silently it's not impossible to pinpoint, although it's unlikely. I got tired at the end of running the fight. Using take 10 which I was doing at the beginning of the fight there was no way to pinpoint, but you are right I should have been doing listen checks when Fjord was making noise or moving (like when he outburst), to see if Evaine pinopinted. Especially in the last few rounds when the dogs had been thinned out, if Evaine had pinpointed then she could have taken some AOOs and had a chance to move and attack Fjord's square. In Round 15, how would he even get his dogs to move out of the way without making noise? I'm sure it wouldn't matter for the outcome, but these are not animal companions. I figure he can just sort of muscle them out of the way, or he can talk to them and tell them to move. Even he made noise, he was still invisible so would get the +2 to his touch attack. Note that I did try to play the animals as pretty dumb because they are animals, for instance they didn't move to flank Evaine unless those were the only available spaces to get to attack Evaine. I hope I'm not coming off as sounding too defensive here, just discussing the fight. I do acknowledge that the mistakes that were made pretty much all went against you :( Biota |
| NiQil02-20-06, 03:30 AM | Due to lack of participation, the previous topic in the Community Vote Center has been scrapped. In it's place is a new question, one that I hope will generate a little more response than the last one. You can view it here. Also, if you have ideas for questions you would like to see answered, either because you want a ruling on something or you are just curious what other's opinions are, don't hesitate to send me a PM with question suggestions. That being said, the new question was taken in part from a suggestion from our newest Elder, Luni. |
| Turin02-20-06, 08:17 AM | @Turin: Your monster fight will be up tomorrow night. I was running it, and got fairly far, then found a mistake near the beginning, so I'm going to have to re-run it from there. I have no time at the moment, so if it's up late, so be it! Lol. Again, sorry for the lateness. KaiganNo problemo... looking forward to seeing it. For that matter, looking forward to seeing what the heck Ivangar is fighting! :) |
| Zevox02-20-06, 09:46 AM | @ Nickbeat - I noticed Destra vs Sunstroke is up. Since no link was posted here before, here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8515873&postcount=266) it is. A few things to say. First, you have our player names wrong in the sblock title ;) . Looks like a copy&paste error, but should probably be fixed. Second, Destra doesn't have an xp penalty. Carcaruva is a class feature ally (Animal Companion) and does not incur such. You also forgot to include Destra's free activity of earning 60 gp with Profession (Hunter) and the items used list (Destra's potion). Those will need to be altered regardless of anything else. Now, with the fight iteself, I really must inquire as to some of things you did. First, why didn't you have Destra order Carcaruva to stand in front of her in round 1 as I asked? I suppose its not important, but it was stated in my tactics that I wanted to do such. Second, you have shield of faith lasting 6 rounds, but it is supposed to last 10. No big deal if the fight stays as is, but it should be noted for future reference. Third, why didn't Destra's readied spell go off when Sunstroked charged? It was set to be cast upon line-of-sight to Sunstroke, and would've stopped him in mid-charge even on a sucessful save. I won't ask for a re-run just based on that, but it is a major error. Next, why is it that you said Sunstroke charged Carcaruva in round 5 when neither had moved from the previous round? You can't charge without at least 10' between you and the target of the charge. Not important as is again, but well worth noting. Also, why does Sunstroke get two grab attempts in round 6? Attempting to start a grapple is a standard action, which you only get 1 of per round. Its not important as is since both fail, but it is quite confusing. Last, the link at the top is broken, and the name you said you used for the rolls comes up with nothing. Could you maybe figure out whats wrong and fix the link or post the correct name so we can see the rolls? I suspect MindWandererB will have more to say too. Zevox |
| SoulLord02-20-06, 10:38 AM | Vandelar the Red (SoulLord) vs. Talari Leafwhisperer (Luni) is up. Rewards are still missing, but I will fill them in as soon as I can. Ladies and gentlemen, start your complaints! :rolleyes: he he he he No complaints here Congrats to my opponent druids are very tough especially when you forget to stock up on potions of pass without trace. *thinks of a new t-shirt* I was held for 3 weeks and all I received was this t-shirt ... plus some gold and xp |
| nickbeat02-20-06, 11:05 AM | @Zevox: I didn't post a link because it was not ready yet. Check again, I fixed most stuff. PM me with further concerns. |
| MindWandererB02-20-06, 02:29 PM | @ Nickbeat - I noticed Destra vs Sunstroke is up. Since no link was posted here before, here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8515873&postcount=266) it is. A few things to say....I suspect MindWandererB will have more to say too.Yup, I do. "The Fight: Destra (malakaiunseen) vs. Sunstroke (Erithmu)" Wrong players. No coordinates, no round-by-round maps; very hard to track movement. Guisarme <> Greatsword. Apparently I consume my potion of Mage Armor by osmosis the instant the fight starts. I never drink it and it isn't marked as used, but it was applied. I asked to call out to my opponent to get their attention. Didn't happen. Charge <> Run. Plus, I asked to wait in the center, not run out and become a target. In addition, there's no chance to not see Sunstroke as he charges out into the open. 2 entangles? What? Why? And why do I try to break out in r5, but start fighting in r6? Also, both Sunstroke and the wolf take an AC penalty (and penalty to Ref saves) from Dex decrease while entangled. I have a +4 bonus to resist trips from Powerful Build, although it doesn't matter. I can explain the 2 grabs: it's a flurry-grapple attempt. It's an (unarmed) attack action, not a standard action. r7: I grab on the first check, so I get a second attempt to deal damage. And why do my grapples never deal any damage? Anyway, odds were heavily against me, so I'll update my sheet now--but I'm sorry, this fight was riddled with errors, there are probably more that I missed (I see one or two more every time I check). And the rolls are really messed up--too many in some places, too few in others, really hard to check. |
| Mal-202-20-06, 04:17 PM | Just under 24 hours left to finish up fights. I show the following still being run: LEVEL 3 FIGHTS Secropiagor (kedi) vs. Mizay Alamak (Katana) : Begferdeth [Week 2] Danidus (Vecnoran) vs. Unknown Monster : MysticMonk2005 [Monster] Ralik (klangley) vs. Irbid Jaresh (ithinkimnothere) : Lonewolf Tueor (MysticMonk2005) vs. Hexacious (Turin) : Kedi Tai-Rath'os (malakaiunseen) vs. Finrod (Lonewolf) : DSugui Loddick (Erithmu) vs. Valek (DSugui) : Abyssal Stalker Emon (Kaigan) vs. Korinel (Argaud) vs. Dordleton (nickbeat) : King Uther [All-vs-All] LEVEL 4 FIGHTS Eiletha (Kaigan) vs. Cid Highwing (Dr.Funk) : Lucanthrope [Week 2] Tsiuzues Pettles (Skojar) vs. Unknown Monster : Waywreth [Monster] Kendal (Papapeperoni) vs. Almaar (emeraldstreak) : Skojar Histal (waywreth) vs. Zwei (MitzaVolchenko) : Turin Jonathon (Abyssal Stalker) vs. Tan (Book5) : Shadowmaster Sven (TroubleWolf) vs. Alagar (King Uther) : Malither76 Manzarf (Abyssal Stalker) vs. Drac (Dracazar) : Begferdeth LEVEL 5 FIGHTS Cher (Dracazar) vs. Hassan Sabbah (Vathelokai) : Ayrynthyn Ivangar (Turin) vs. Unknown Monster : Kaigan [Monster] LEVEL 6 FIGHTS Leif Goldeneye (Sunwolf) vs. Karen Douglas (Lonewolf) : Warclone The Harvester (Caterane) vs. Cyra Val (Stormwind) : MitzaVolchenko Sliver Firebug (MitzaVolchenko) vs. Donak (Mal-2) : Gonbow ThwapECL5 (Warclone) vs. Tatyana (Gonbow) : Luni LEVEL 7 FIGHTS Grik Bladehammer (Snommelp) vs. Unknown Monster : Macbrea [Monster] LEVEL 8 FIGHTS Morgan (Myrridin) vs. Lissa (MysticMonk2005) : Iced Samuel (Lonewolf) vs. Sdentch (TheMagister) : Huan |
| Turin02-20-06, 04:43 PM | If you're using the Pairings list to make that list, I don't think it's up-to-date. My fight was done Friday and edits were finished by Saturday, for example. |
| Mal-202-20-06, 04:51 PM | If you're using the Pairings list to make that list, I don't think it's up-to-date. My fight was done Friday and edits were finished by Saturday, for example. It was based off of the pairings list, then going back through the last page or so of the Battles thread to double check that things were up to date. It's not really meant to be comprehensive, just a "look at all these fights that need to be run in the next day" kind of warning. The biggest thing that throws me off is when someone posts a "shell" for thier fight on wednesday or thursday and then doesn't run the fight until the weekend. I never think to go back that far looking for new fights, and I assume Cat doesn't either when he updates the pairings post. Anyway, sorry I missed that you finished your fight. |
| Snommelp02-20-06, 04:55 PM | LEVEL 7 FIGHTS Grik Bladehammer (Snommelp) vs. Unknown Monster : Macbrea [Monster] Might want to recheck, Mal-2. I know that Grik's fight at least has already been run, and early in the weekend, too. |
| Macbrea02-20-06, 04:55 PM | That list is mostly correct. The Grik vs unknown monster fight is done. But looking back through the last couple pages i didn't see any of those fights. |
| nickbeat02-20-06, 04:57 PM | I did mention that it was not ready before, sorry I posted this too early. Still, I am glad you both had a chance to see it and make comments. Though I would prefer your comments in a PM, rather than in the public forum where everyone can see what a noob I am. If you look at the CURRENT posting, you should see most of the errors you both described are fixed. The maps are posted and pretty clear I think. In future, I will wait to post my fights til I am fully ready. MindWanderer: Regarding the charge: You both were stalling, so someone had to make a start. Since you had the advantage of surprise still, I figured why not start the fight right off. Regarding the Flurry, can you do unarmed strike damage 2 times in the next round if you have them held? I did take into account your powerful build. @Zevox: Regarding the entangle timing: The entangle was best used after the charge, so the dog would not be out of range if stuck in the entangle. Nick |
| Ariel2302-20-06, 07:12 PM | @biota I posted this yesterday, but still need some feedback, as the deadline is coming quickly: Evaine basically only needs one successful attack. Round 4: Evaine moves 45' to base Fjord but doesn't attack. Nothing special is required here, just an attack roll. Round 5: Evaine could move 45' and attack but doesn't. Would require a bit more work if the dogs can attack (AoO). Other: Listen checks might afford her an attack at some point while Fjord is invisible. With a charged sword, damage would be 1d8+4+2d6. Of course it is only 50/50 to hit if he's invisible, but an average damage roll could KO Fjord. If it didn't, it would only take one Spiked Gauntlet attack to make up the difference in the grapple. With a full-health Fjord, 3 gauntlet attacks might suffice with average damage rolling, 4 at the most. I'm not saying that is likely, but it's possible. There's the stupid dog/Handle Animal issue, but I would never ask for a rerun (etc) over that. It may be RAW but it's dumb. The problem I have is that all Evaine wanted to do was attack Fjord, but she never attacked him even once. @Biota Despite whatever my complaints/concerns might be, I thank you for running the fight, and I think you did a good job. Running a pack of dogs is no easy matter. Now, don't get me wrong, that's Fjord's fault, not mine, but I still appreciate it. :cheer: It's 2 tricks to have dogs attack Aberrations, otherwise they must be pushed... I would feel bad about this if the dog was a true animal companion, bonding with Fjord for life. (Or if there were only one dog, LOL!) Well, also my opponent stands to benefit from the same rule in his own fights. (Not in this particular fight, obviously.) Round 5: Fjord might be invisible, but Evaine knows the last square he was in before casting his spell, as he couldn't move after. Her tactics were very specific about always going for him whenever possible. I'm not sure how far he moved, but it looks like 20' and the furthest he can go is 15' while tumbling. I don't think that matters, though. I don't see any Listen checks while Fjord is moving, singing, casting, dog handling, etc while invisible. Evaine would always attack with a pinpoint and take the 50/50. At +7 Listen vs +2 Move Silently it's not impossible to pinpoint, although it's unlikely. In Round 15, how would he even get his dogs to move out of the way without making noise? I'm sure it wouldn't matter for the outcome, but these are not animal companions. |
| MindWandererB02-20-06, 08:03 PM | MindWanderer: Regarding the charge: You both were stalling, so someone had to make a start. Since you had the advantage of surprise still, I figured why not start the fight right off. Regarding the Flurry, can you do unarmed strike damage 2 times in the next round if you have them held?1) I asked to stall. Zevox didn't. He should have come looking for me. Well, doesn't really matter. 2) Yes. This is in the Court Rulings. |
| Biota02-20-06, 08:09 PM | @biota I posted this yesterday, but still need some feedback, as the deadline is coming quickly: Evaine basically only needs one successful attack. Round 4: Evaine moves 45' to base Fjord but doesn't attack. Nothing special is required here, just an attack roll. Round 5: Evaine could move 45' and attack but doesn't. Would require a bit more work if the dogs can attack (AoO). Other: Listen checks might afford her an attack at some point while Fjord is invisible. With a charged sword, damage would be 1d8+4+2d6. Of course it is only 50/50 to hit if he's invisible, but an average damage roll could KO Fjord. If it didn't, it would only take one Spiked Gauntlet attack to make up the difference in the grapple. With a full-health Fjord, 3 gauntlet attacks might suffice with average damage rolling, 4 at the most. I'm not saying that is likely, but it's possible. There's the stupid dog/Handle Animal issue, but I would never ask for a rerun (etc) over that. It may be RAW but it's dumb. The problem I have is that all Evaine wanted to do was attack Fjord, but she never attacked him even once. Now that I look at it more closely, you are right that in round 4 Evaine could have taken the 3 AOOs and been able to base Fjord and attack him. When I ran it, I had her withdraw and move more than 45' and take no AOOs. I didn't realize she could make in one 45' move, but she can make it. So I'll roll that attack and amend the fight. But I'm not going to do a full re-run, if you don't kill him in that hit I'm not willing to rerun the fight and try to figure out if Fjord would have grappled you while injured and the like. I hate going back, but in this case I think you have a compelling enough case for me to do an edit. I'm going to guess that this edit won't make Begferdeth very happy. As for Round 5, I posted a long post yesterday that I thought explained why Evaine thought it would be best to back off rather than to go and take a swing at an invisible Fjord. That post is here. |
| Biota02-20-06, 08:27 PM | I've edited the Fjörd vs. Evaine fight, the post is here. This changed the outcome. All the work I put into running the fight ended up being a colossal waste of time. /sigh Biota |
| lonewolf02-20-06, 09:44 PM | Rallik vs. Irbid Jaresh is up. and the serie of fights that are decided with criticals continues. |
| Gonbow02-20-06, 09:56 PM | Just under 24 hours left to finish up fights. I show the following still being run: LEVEL 6 FIGHTS Sliver Firebug (MitzaVolchenko) vs. Donak (Mal-2) : Gonbow ThwapECL5 (Warclone) vs. Tatyana (Gonbow) : Luni I've got Sliver vs Donak set up and I'm running it now; for Mitza's and Mal-2's edification. Luni should have the tactics for Thwap vs Tatyana and from what I thought it should be a simple fight to run, so I'd be surprised if that wasn't up before the deadline; but RL can always interfere in these things. |
| DSugui02-20-06, 10:22 PM | Just under 24 hours left to finish up fights. I show the following still being run: LEVEL 3 FIGHTS Tai-Rath'os (malakaiunseen) vs. Finrod (Lonewolf) : DSugui This fight is up since Friday here, as I stated in this post. Thanks. |
| Begferdeth02-20-06, 10:57 PM | Drac vs Manzarf (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8525090&postcount=269) is up! Let the complaints begin :D Ill start on the other fight tomorrow. Honest. |
| Zevox02-20-06, 11:08 PM | @Zevox: Regarding the entangle timing: The entangle was best used after the charge, so the dog would not be out of range if stuck in the entangle. Nick Two problems with that: 1. I had specifically asked to ready to cast it so that I could catch him in mid-movement like that and not have him get close to me (especially to prevent a charge since that would give him a better chance to hit me or Carcaruva). I fully intended for Carcaruva to try and reach him through it, making reflex saves as she went (her reflex save is pretty good at +7, so she should've have little trouble reaching him). 2. Since the spell was readied it should have been cast immediately on LoS regardless. Again, no need to change it for such, but for future reference please don't deviate from tactics that are still effective like that. Zevox |
| Gonbow02-20-06, 11:31 PM | Donak vs Sliverbug is up here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8525430&postcount=270). For those of you up on your errata; this fight was grandfathered, as the errata took affect after the pairings had been made. |
| Warclone02-21-06, 01:18 AM | Leif Goldeneye (Sunwolf) vs. Karen Douglas (Lonewolf) : Warclone is up. |
| Ariel2302-21-06, 01:20 AM | As for Round 5, I posted a long post yesterday that I thought explained why Evaine thought it would be best to back off rather than to go and take a swing at an invisible Fjord. That post is here. I must have reloaded that thread 5 or 6 times, I don't know how I missed that. Thank you very much; I'm sorry about my double post now that I know it was one. Your explanation and actions are fine, I have no problem with any of them. Puzzling through player tactics is pretty tough. That's why I try to list strategic goals as a fall-back. Sometimes they can help. Maybe not. It's also just more to read. I don't care about the dogs at all. That's a pitlording headache. Although slightly simpler than Summon spells, you have to add in Handle Animal and I don't know if that's better or worse. I hate going back, but in this case I think you have a compelling enough case for me to do an edit. I'm going to guess that this edit won't make Begferdeth very happy.I think you did a really good job with the fight; I thought that even when I lost (and still might). My main focus was the complete lack of attacks on Fjord in order to save face. It was quite embarrassing. I should have said "edit" myself, not "re-run." I hate re-runs. If a Pitlord's fight is THAT bad, it would be make more sense just hold it over unless the PL feels really bad about some major mistakes. Fjord will not be happy with the result, that's for sure. But Begferdeth might still be able to find a +2 AC or something in there. I can definitely live with a loss now that I got a swing in. Actually Evaine's staggering 4 Initiative made all that possible. I'm going to go ahead and edit my character sheet since Evaine is posted in the fight log. If the result changes again, hopefully I can change her back in time by the deadline. Fjord and I already missed 2 weeks, I don't really want to miss another. |
| Kaigan02-21-06, 02:04 AM | Ivangar vs. the Cloaker posted here. Please look over for errors. |
| Iced02-21-06, 02:07 AM | If anyone's up to running the morgan vs lissa fight do so othrewise i'll get it done ASAP tomorrow |
| Luni02-21-06, 02:38 AM | Thwap vs Tatyana (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8526369&postcount=274) is done. I wish all my fights were this quick one way or another. |
| Abyssal Stalker02-21-06, 03:12 AM | Loddick (Erithmu) vs. Valek (DSugui) : Abyssal Stalker This has been done for quite a time now. Or at least I think so. If there is something wrong with it that makes it "undone", please let me know! The link is here. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8504167) |
| Abyssal Stalker02-21-06, 03:36 AM | Drac vs Manzarf (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8525090&postcount=269) seems to be done. OK by me! |
| Dracazar02-21-06, 05:05 AM | Drac vs Manzarf (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8525090&postcount=269) is up! Let the complaints begin :D Ill start on the other fight tomorrow. Honest. I'm absolutely in disagree with your ruling of a Swarm of Bats. Bats move at 40' (fly), the foe move at 30' (land). It is impossible that Bats lose their target. Also they have Blindsense 20', this does not means that they only see at 20'. They see target invisibles in 20' but they also see further than 20' so they can't lose their target. If I would have known this your rule I would have summoned another type of swarm! I think that it is really incredible that loss, an invisible mage, protected from evil, that concentrate on a swarm that has only one target in all the arena... The bats should "seeks" to surround and attack any warm-blooded prey it encounters. |
| Abyssal Stalker02-21-06, 08:02 AM | Also they have Blindsense 20', this does not means that they only see at 20'. They see target invisibles in 20' but they also see further than 20' so they can't lose their target. If I would have known this your rule I would have summoned another type of swarm! Actually, they cannot see further. Blindsense (Ex) A bat swarm notices and locates creatures within 20 feet. Opponents still have total concealment against the bat swarm (but swarm attacks ignore concealment). Notice, that opponents have total concealment even inside the blindsense's radius. Total concealment means that you don't have a line of sight, which means that you cannot see the target. If opponents have total concealment inside the radius, this must be the case also outside the radius. Actually the bats lose Manzarf already after round 5, since he moves outside the 20' radius. They should start to make listen checks at that point, which of course isn't that hard when dealing with an armored dwarf. But if they don't hear Manzarf, it seems perfectly reasonable that they start moving randomly. Drac can't control the swarms movement or target, as per the spell description. I think that it is really incredible that loss, an invisible mage, protected from evil, that concentrate on a swarm that has only one target in all the arena... Not that simple. Manzarf made some pretty important saves in the fight, probably against the odds. Also, it's not that certain that the bats keep up with Manzarf. If Manzarf gets near Drac after round 10 and the swarm is still after him, Dracs protection has run out and the target could be either one. |
| Turin02-21-06, 08:09 AM | Ivangar vs. the Cloaker posted here. Please look over for errors.Looks good Kaigan, except that there's something wrong with the spoiler blocks on the character sheets/tactics. I can't view them in either IE or Firefox. I would have thought I'd see more 3D movement from a cloaker, but reading the SRD description apparently you ran it just as it says there. Weird monster... I've never used one as a DM. Looks like they could really only be effective when they have numerical parity with the party. If Ivangar wasn't optimized for grappling, this could have easily gone against him. Other than that, I'm pretty happy with the way that one went. Looks like a combination of decent tactics and some lucky dice (hitting the right one of the mirror images and good saves) pulled it out for me. Thanks for running it! |
| lonewolf02-21-06, 08:46 AM | Leif Goldeneye (Sunwolf) vs. Karen Douglas (Lonewolf) : Warclone is up. I cannot complain here. I guess Karen needs a flying mount or something. |
| SoulLord02-21-06, 11:28 AM | Actually, they cannot see further. Notice, that opponents have total concealment even inside the blindsense's radius. Total concealment means that you don't have a line of sight, which means that you cannot see the target. If opponents have total concealment inside the radius, this must be the case also outside the radius. Actually the bats lose Manzarf already after round 5, since he moves outside the 20' radius. They should start to make listen checks at that point, which of course isn't that hard when dealing with an armored dwarf. But if they don't hear Manzarf, it seems perfectly reasonable that they start moving randomly. Drac can't control the swarms movement or target, as per the spell description. Not that simple. Manzarf made some pretty important saves in the fight, probably against the odds. Also, it's not that certain that the bats keep up with Manzarf. If Manzarf gets near Drac after round 10 and the swarm is still after him, Dracs protection has run out and the target could be either one. Having blindsense does not mean that the creature is blind. in this case the bats even have low light vision. Blindsense Other creatures have blindsense, a lesser ability that lets the creature notice things it cannot see, but without the precision of blindsight. The creature with blindsense usually does not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice and locate creatures within range of its blindsense ability, provided that it has line of effect to that creature. Any opponent the creature cannot see has total concealment (50% miss chance) against the creature with blindsense, and the blindsensing creature still has the normal miss chance when attacking foes that have concealment. Visibility still affects the movement of a creature with blindsense. A creature with blindsense is still denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against attacks from creatures it cannot see. |
| nickbeat02-21-06, 11:53 AM | Two problems with that: 1. I had specifically asked to ready to cast it so that I could catch him in mid-movement like that and not have him get close to me (especially to prevent a charge since that would give him a better chance to hit me or Carcaruva). I fully intended for Carcaruva to try and reach him through it, making reflex saves as she went (her reflex save is pretty good at +7, so she should've have little trouble reaching him). 2. Since the spell was readied it should have been cast immediately on LoS regardless. Again, no need to change it for such, but for future reference please don't deviate from tactics that are still effective like that. Zevox I presumed that he could charge out there as a surprise since you could not see him yet. I was under the impression that you need to see the target before you can ready an action against them. Otherwise players could just walk into a dungeon and say, "I ready an attack vs anything I see." Sounds like I was wrong about this though and the entangle should have gone off when Sunstroke called out to you. I think the results of the fight would have been the same really. Based on the dice, your doggy would have been entangled and unable to attack though. Sunstroke might have had one more round, but you could have flamed him at range one more time and he would have gone down. If you wanna see a total divergence of tactics, have a look at: Emon vs Korinel vs Dordleton, Dordleton does everything wrong. But really, I just can't blame the GM, who is trying to think with 4 minds at once. Is there a format where we can allow play by play arena fights? This would take longer, but certainly we would avoid misnterpretations. |
| Macbrea02-21-06, 11:55 AM | Ok, apparently people aren't quite sure the difference between Blindsense and Blindsight. There is a very big difference between the two: Bats have blindsight and Lowlight vision. They are not blind. It would say so in their description. They can see as far as an elf can according to the rules. Other creatures have blindsense, a lesser ability that lets the creature notice things it cannot see, but without the precision of blindsight. The creature with blindsense usually does not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice and locate creatures within range of its blindsense ability, provided that it has line of effect to that creature. Any opponent the creature cannot see has total concealment (50% miss chance) against the creature with blindsense, and the blindsensing creature still has the normal miss chance when attacking foes that have concealment. Visibility still affects the movement of a creature with blindsense. A creature with blindsense is still denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against attacks from creatures it cannot see. Some creatures have blindsight, the extraordinary ability to use a nonvisual sense (or a combination of such senses) to operate effectively without vision. Such sense may include sensitivity to vibrations, acute scent, keen hearing, or echolocation. This ability makes invisibility and concealment (even magical darkness) irrelevant to the creature (though it still can’t see ethereal creatures and must have line of effect to a creature or object to discern that creature or object). This ability operates out to a range specified in the creature description. The creature usually does not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice creatures within range of its blindsight ability. Unless noted otherwise, blindsight is continuous, and the creature need do nothing to use it. Some forms of blindsight, however, must be triggered as a free action. If so, this is noted in the creature’s description. If a creature must trigger its blindsight ability, the creature gains the benefits of blindsight only during its turn. * Blindsight never allows a creature to distinguish color or visual contrast. A creature cannot read with blindsight. * Blindsight does not subject a creature to gaze attacks (even though darkvision does). * Blinding attacks do not penalize creatures using blindsight. * Deafening attacks thwart blindsight if it relies on hearing. * Blindsight works underwater but not in a vacuum. * Blindsight negates displacement and blur effects. You will note that blindsight allows you to autospot invisible creatures. Blindsense only allowed you to notice them in your radius. To give you another example of a creature with Blindsense and other type senses: lets look at the Dragon, True Dragons: Blindsense (Ex) Dragons can pinpoint creatures within a distance of 60 feet. Opponents the dragon can’t actually see still have total concealment against the dragon. Keen Senses (Ex) A dragon sees four times as well as a human in shadowy illumination and twice as well in normal light. It also has darkvision out to 120 feet. As you can see. The dragon obviously isn't blind outside of it's 60ft radius. Why would a bat with lowlight vision be blind outside of it's radius? |
| SoulLord02-21-06, 12:02 PM | I agree with almost everything except this part Blindsense only allowed you to notice them in your radius. Creatures with blindsense can pinpoint invisible creatures within their blindsense radius but they are still subject to the 50% miss chance [which in the case of swarms doesn't apply] Blindsense Other creatures have blindsense, a lesser ability that lets the creature notice things it cannot see, but without the precision of blindsight. The creature with blindsense usually does not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice and locate creatures within range of its blindsense ability, provided that it has line of effect to that creature. Any opponent the creature cannot see has total concealment (50% miss chance) against the creature with blindsense, and the blindsensing creature still has the normal miss chance when attacking foes that have concealment. Visibility still affects the movement of a creature with blindsense. A creature with blindsense is still denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against attacks from creatures it cannot see. |
| Luni02-21-06, 12:06 PM | I'm absolutely in disagree with your ruling of a Swarm of Bats. Bats move at 40' (fly), the foe move at 30' (land). It is impossible that Bats lose their target. Also they have Blindsense 20', this does not means that they only see at 20'. They see target invisibles in 20' but they also see further than 20' so they can't lose their target. If I would have known this your rule I would have summoned another type of swarm! I think that it is really incredible that loss, an invisible mage, protected from evil, that concentrate on a swarm that has only one target in all the arena... The bats should "seeks" to surround and attack any warm-blooded prey it encounters. Well, you are right the bats should be able to track their targets. The bigger problem though, is that you can only continue concentrating on the spell while it is within the range of the spell. Range A spell’s range indicates how far from you it can reach, as defined in the Range entry of the spell description. A spell’s range is the maximum distance from you that the spell’s effect can occur, as well as the maximum distance at which you can designate the spell’s point of origin. If any portion of the spell’s area would extend beyond this range, that area is wasted. |
| SoulLord02-21-06, 12:47 PM | @Luni The range of the Summon swarm spell refers to the range the swarm can initially appear. After it has appeared nothing indicates that if it moves out of range the swarm would dissapear. the only limit to them dissapearing is 2 rounds after the caster ceases to concentrate on them. Summon Monster also has a small range but the creatures summoned are not limited to attack within the initial area of effect of the spell. |
| Abyssal Stalker02-21-06, 01:04 PM | So the nocturnal bats don't have any problems at all in bright daylight...OK. I totally missed the low-light vision -part in the bats statistics. I think that the spells range is also the range in which you can concentrate on it. If the swarm goes out of range, it's 2 rounds and poof. The difference to summon monster is that you must concentrate on the spell. |
| Macbrea02-21-06, 01:04 PM | Actually, Summons swarm doesn't allow you to control them at all. They are cast then you can continue to concentrate on them to keep them in existance. You summon a swarm of bats, rats, or spiders (your choice), which attacks all other creatures within its area. (You may summon the swarm so that it shares the area of other creatures.) If no living creatures are within its area, the swarm attacks or pursues the nearest creature as best it can. The caster has no control over its target or direction of travel. |
| Macbrea02-21-06, 01:06 PM | Conjuration Each conjuration spell belongs to one of five subschools. Conjurations bring manifestations of objects, creatures, or some form of energy to you (the summoning subschool), actually transport creatures from another plane of existence to your plane (calling), heal (healing), transport creatures or objects over great distances (teleportation), or create objects or effects on the spot (creation). Creatures you conjure usually, but not always, obey your commands. A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it. The creature or object must appear within the spell’s range, but it does not have to remain within the range. |
| SoulLord02-21-06, 01:09 PM | So the nocturnal bats don't have any problems at all in bright daylight...OK. I totally missed the low-light vision -part in the bats statistics. I think that the spells range is also the range in which you can concentrate on it. If the swarm goes out of range, it's 2 rounds and poof. The difference to summon monster is that you must concentrate on the spell. But by that same Argument once a summon monster I,II,II etc. critter moves out of the area of the spell it would dissaper which it does not. |
| Abyssal Stalker02-21-06, 01:28 PM | But by that same Argument once a summon monster I,II,II etc. critter moves out of the area of the spell it would dissaper which it does not. No, that's different. Summon monster has a duration of round/level. Summon swarm has a duration of concentration+2. So the caster needs to succesfully concentrate on the summon swarm -spell to keep it active. What you are suggesting is that a caster could cast a swarm and travel to the other side of the world and it would remain active as long as the caster can maintain his concentration. |
| SoulLord02-21-06, 01:33 PM | No, that's different. Summon monster has a duration of round/level. Summon swarm has a duration of concentration+2. So the caster needs to succesfully concentrate on the summon swarm -spell to keep it active. What you are suggesting is that a caster could cast a swarm and travel to the other side of the world and it would remain active as long as the caster can maintain his concentration. Yes compare it for example to a wall of fire wich also lasts concentration + rounds/lvl It doesn't matter if you move away from the area of the spell as long as you keep concentrating on it the wall will not suddenly pop out of existance, |
| Abyssal Stalker02-21-06, 01:36 PM | I'd appreciate if someone of the Elders could make a ruling on the summon swarm issue, since Begferdeth hasn't participated on the conversation. I need to level Manzarf up and I'm not able to do this if the result of the fight is going to change. The downtime is also coming and I'd need some time to do it. |
| Abyssal Stalker02-21-06, 01:40 PM | Yes compare it for example to a wall of fire wich also lasts concentration + rounds/lvl It doesn't matter if you move away from the area of the spell as long as you keep concentrating on it the wall will not suddenly pop out of existance, Where is this ruled? It's not in the spell description. |
| SoulLord02-21-06, 01:47 PM | It doesnt have to be .... only if by moving out of the area caused the effect to end it would be noted on it. let me try another example. Detect Magic also has a duration of concentration and it has a range of 60 feet. By your argument you cannot move more than 60 feet without losing access to dispel magic Now detect magic (and wall of fire) can be made permanent but by moving outside of these 60 feet even this permanent spells would dissaper when clearly it is not the case. |
| Zevox02-21-06, 02:00 PM | I presumed that he could charge out there as a surprise since you could not see him yet. True, but the moment hes out of hiding (either when I successfully spot him or when he steps further than 5' from a source of cover in this case, since he has 5 ranks in hide) I automatically gain LoS to him, and then the readied spell would go off. I was under the impression that you need to see the target before you can ready an action against them. Not at all. You can ready to do something as soon as you see them, and then when you do your action goes off. Heck, you can ready to do something as soon as you hear them, and then you don't even need to see them (so long as you have some idea of where to aim your shot if thats what your readied action is doing). Sounds like I was wrong about this though and the entangle should have gone off when Sunstroke called out to you. Actually, it should have gone off as soon as he stepped into view, since the action was readied to go off on LoS, not upon hearing him. I think the results of the fight would have been the same really. As do I, which is why I'm not asking for anything to be changed, just trying to explain the error to you for future reference. Helps so that you don't have things like this happen in instances where it could change the outcome :) . Zevox |
| Abyssal Stalker02-21-06, 02:11 PM | It doesnt have to be .... only if by moving out of the area caused the effect to end it would be noted on it. let me try another example. Detect Magic also has a duration of concentration and it has a range of 60 feet. By your argument you cannot move more than 60 feet without losing access to dispel magic Now detect magic (and wall of fire) can be made permanent but by moving outside of these 60 feet even this permanent spells would dissaper when clearly it is not the case. No, this isn't the case with permanency. A permanency changes the spells duration to permanent which means that it's duration is no more concentration+n and so concentration becomes unnecessary. Detect Magic originates from the spellcaster, so the caster can't move away from it. So it shouldn't be compared to this case. |
| MindWandererB02-21-06, 02:12 PM | I presumed that he could charge out there as a surprise since you could not see him yet. I was under the impression that you need to see the target before you can ready an action against them. Otherwise players could just walk into a dungeon and say, "I ready an attack vs anything I see." The reason they can't is because you can't ready actions outside of combat. Even the core rules use the example of "ready an attack as soon as I see an opponent," which means they don't see them yet. Sounds like I was wrong about this though and the entangle should have gone off when Sunstroke called out to you.If his readying trigger was "on sight" then the spell goes off when he sees me--i.e. as soon as I'm more than 5 feet away from cover. I think the results of the fight would have been the same really. Based on the dice, your doggy would have been entangled and unable to attack though.True, which is why corrections aren't really necessary. Keeping thematic die rolls, the dog would have been entangled as soon as it stepped into the area, which would have changed the fight somewhat: the dog would be trying to close with Sunstroke, Sunstroke would be trying to break out while being pelted with fire (exactly what he was trying to avoid). Sunstroke might have had one more round, but you could have flamed him at range one more time and he would have gone down.Well, it would have been several more rounds without the dog gnawing on me. But again, it's just delaying the inevitable.Is there a format where we can allow play by play arena fights? This would take longer, but certainly we would avoid misnterpretations.Yes, there is: you can run a seperate battle thread (see Lord Frost vs. Sola Nicous for an example). |
| Malither7602-21-06, 02:40 PM | Sven (TroubleWolf) vs. Alagar (King Uther) is up |
| SoulLord02-21-06, 02:42 PM | No, this isn't the case with permanency. A permanency changes the spells duration to permanent which means that it's duration is no more concentration+n and so concentration becomes unnecessary. Detect Magic originates from the spellcaster, so the caster can't move away from it. So it shouldn't be compared to this case. Ok here's my last quote on this subject I'll wait for the elders to rule on it Conjuration Each conjuration spell belongs to one of five subschools. Conjurations bring manifestations of objects, creatures, or some form of energy to you (the summoning subschool), actually transport creatures from another plane of existence to your plane (calling), heal (healing), transport creatures or objects over great distances (teleportation), or create objects or effects on the spot (creation). Creatures you conjure usually, but not always, obey your commands. A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it. The creature or object must appear within the spell’s range, but it does not have to remain within the range. |
| Ayrynthyn02-21-06, 04:03 PM | I suck... 3 weeks. 3 late fights. :allalone: 8 rounds of Hassan Sabbah (Vathelokai) vs. Cher (Dracazar) is up... there are more than likely several more rounds outstanding, but i wont be able to get to them for a few hours, as im gettin ridden pretty hard here at work. If there's anything drastically wrong, pm me, and i'll address it. :yuck: |
| Vathelokai02-21-06, 04:21 PM | I suck... 3 weeks. 3 late fights. :allalone: 8 rounds of Hassan Sabbah (Vathelokai) vs. Cher (Dracazar) is up... there are more than likely several more rounds outstanding, but i wont be able to get to them for a few hours, as im gettin ridden pretty hard here at work. If there's anything drastically wrong, pm me, and i'll address it. :yuck: Nothing major... In the tactics I said to use the chameleon powerstone if tactics fall appart, but I don't think they've fallen appart yet. I didn't specifiy in my tactics, but you can try to activate a scroll with UMD multiple times, it only becomes impossible after you roll a 1. oh, and it's a powerstone of chameleon, not a tatoo. So Hassan would have to spend a move action getting it out. |
| Ayrynthyn02-21-06, 04:44 PM | i see... i misread the "try again" piece of UMD. my bad. With out the entangle and the loose of the silence i took that "starting to fall apart"... i'll adjust here in a bit. |
| Luni02-21-06, 05:14 PM | Ok. I started the whole mess with Summon Swarm, and I'm going to end it. The correct answer is: No Idea Until I hear back from custserv, you won't need to maintain Line of Effect and range to the spell. I'm going to go make a pixie druid who casts Hide from Animals [Level 6 scroll] and then casts Summon Swarm [Level 3 Scroll], and concentrates for 5998 rounds while hiding somewhere. :) In the players handbook, but surprisingly not in the SRD it says "If a target moves out of range, the spell acts as if your concentration had been broken." In summon swarms case, the target is the swarm itself. |
| Huan02-21-06, 07:10 PM | A late Samuel vs Sdentch (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8530973) is up. Short Version: A woefully one-sided fight... I'm not going to pitlord any fights this week. Not that I wish to add more stress to the PL situation, but I am too overworked in RL right now to help this week. I'd rather not make it worse for other players than I already have. |
| Ariel2302-21-06, 07:23 PM | Sven (TroubleWolf) vs. Alagar (King Uther) is up An expanding invisible chain wielder with Improved Trip...and he won? Oh wait, I just remembered, they always do. ;) |
| lonewolf02-21-06, 07:23 PM | A late Samuel vs Sdentch (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8530973) is up. Short Version: A woefully one-sided fight... I'm not going to pitlord any fights this week. Not that I wish to add more stress to the PL situation, but I am too overworked in RL right now to help this week. I'd rather not make it worse for other players than I already have. 2 small comments: Samuel used a stone of inertial armor, not Force screen. And both guilds should get 10% of the money we made, not the xp. => 340gp for PSI and 113gp for WAR. |
| Begferdeth02-21-06, 07:33 PM | Ok... Seems that there is some problems with the Drac vs Manzarf fight. Somehow I saw that coming. First off, I didnt see any rule that put a limit on how far you can concentrate. Thats why I let Drac concentrate after the bats chase after Manzarf. I havent heard any rule other than the one Luni put up about concentration being broken if it gets away. If I do an edit/rerun, Im going to go with that unless somebody else has a better one. You know, summon swarm just got pretty sad if all you have to do is run 30' away for 3 rounds and its gone... 3d6 damage at best! And a fair chance it will come for you too. Oh well. Second, bats can only super-see out to 20'. If your in that range, they know it, invisible/behind a wall/whatever. Past that, its normal vision. Manzarf ran around the wall, and the bats didnt see him. He was outside the 20' range. So they forgot all about him. Actually, on Manzarfs first blind run across the arena, the bats come within 20' of Drac, while still being farther away from Manzarf. I should have had them switch targets then. Next, just cuz I know its going to come up sometime, I dont think protection from evil will make a swarm ignore you. It will still swarm you, it just wont hurt you. You probably will still have to make the nausea checks every round your in it. And invisible wont help once its within that 20' range. Well, theres my 2cp... argue away! |
| Begferdeth02-21-06, 07:40 PM | Heh, thanks to some RL stuff, I just finally get around to running my second fight now... and I havent got any tactics from Secropiagor yet! No default tactics either. And I think the [P] next to her name means shes in the prison to boot. I would sit down and try to figure out the character... but the fight is late enough already, and I dont want to decipher "curse of the dead". Congrats to Mizay Alamak! |
| MitzaVolchenko02-21-06, 09:30 PM | @Caterane I'll update the Quest log in a bit to reflect your success this week. @My gladiators...apologies between the weather change and my lungs not cooperating with me, I amlate doing the fight. I'll get it up tonight. @Mal-2 I expect "Pixies Rule, I Drool!" o be predominantly displayed on your character sheet for Donak this week. |
| Mal-202-21-06, 10:40 PM | @Mal-2 I expect "Pixies Rule, I Drool!" o be predominantly displayed on your character sheet for Donak this week. As you command, most terrible fae. I didn't have tactics to deal with you going underground. I expected I'd be able to find you more easily. @Gonbow: I think there were a few minor errors, mostly with my point blank shot, but nothing fight-changing. Thanks for running it. |
| MitzaVolchenko02-21-06, 11:13 PM | Alright, I just cooked my secon dpower supply in as many months and lost the work I had done on Harvester vs. Cyra. I will try to get up and muddle through it on my roommate's compy (she is doing her online class midterm right now) before I go to work, but if anyone is just dying to pick the fight up (please do!) the set up is here. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8496650&postcount=242) Sorry gang...I don't normally leave things this late, and I don't have any failsafe time this week. Good news is that I am off next Sunday so I get plenty of time to run this week upcoming. |
| Ayrynthyn02-22-06, 12:06 AM | Nothing major... In the tactics I said to use the chameleon powerstone if tactics fall appart, but I don't think they've fallen appart yet. I didn't specifiy in my tactics, but you can try to activate a scroll with UMD multiple times, it only becomes impossible after you roll a 1. oh, and it's a powerstone of chameleon, not a tatoo. So Hassan would have to spend a move action getting it out. alright...it's all set. Hassan got the entangle off on the second attempt. Now that the fight is done, and i compare it to the tactics presented, it seems that i may have drifted a bit from Dracazar's, so i will entertain any gripes Drac. I moved instead of summoning the bison in round three in an attempt to maximize the distance covered, and getting the (to be summoned) bison on target quicker. This backfired a bit as he was able to get the silenected psi crystal on you. When Hassan appeared, i directed the magic missiles at him instead of the psi crystal. The intent here was in following your "i have expendables, use em" and "once he's damaged, move in with the Death Touch" tactic. Neither of these payed off. Regardkess, had you saved vs the entangle, it would have most likely ended in your favor (5d6 death touch is pretty vicious). Anyway... as mentioned, i'll entertain any gripes and complaints. I'll check back in the AM, and address them prior to pairings. |
| Abyssal Stalker02-22-06, 12:35 AM | Ok... Seems that there is some problems with the Drac vs Manzarf fight. Somehow I saw that coming. First off, I didnt see any rule that put a limit on how far you can concentrate. Thats why I let Drac concentrate after the bats chase after Manzarf. I havent heard any rule other than the one Luni put up about concentration being broken if it gets away. If I do an edit/rerun, Im going to go with that unless somebody else has a better one. You know, summon swarm just got pretty sad if all you have to do is run 30' away for 3 rounds and its gone... 3d6 damage at best! And a fair chance it will come for you too. Oh well. Second, bats can only super-see out to 20'. If your in that range, they know it, invisible/behind a wall/whatever. Past that, its normal vision. Manzarf ran around the wall, and the bats didnt see him. He was outside the 20' range. So they forgot all about him. Actually, on Manzarfs first blind run across the arena, the bats come within 20' of Drac, while still being farther away from Manzarf. I should have had them switch targets then. Next, just cuz I know its going to come up sometime, I dont think protection from evil will make a swarm ignore you. It will still swarm you, it just wont hurt you. You probably will still have to make the nausea checks every round your in it. And invisible wont help once its within that 20' range. Well, theres my 2cp... argue away! I'll leave things to your consideration. Whatever you decide, I'm not gonna complain about your decision. I just hope that I get the time to level Manzarf up before the next pairings. |
| Abyssal Stalker02-22-06, 12:43 AM | Is there anyone who could take this fight: Level 4 Jonathon (Abyssal Stalker) vs. Tan (Book5): Shadowmaster Shadowmaster hasn't been around, and I'd wish to get this over with. I can re-send my tactics if needed, I hope that Book5 can also do that. |
| Dracazar02-22-06, 06:54 AM | @Begferdeth: It is strengthened that bats will see further than 20' as you first ruled the fight. It is quite strengthened that the wizard can keep concentration even if not within the initial casting of the summoned creature. Even with this two points (and you agree with them) it seems (it is my impression) that you are attempting to find some reasons to minimize these issues and let the result of the fights as it is. You know that the speed of the swarm of bats is 40' and the speed of Manzarf is 30' so I think it should be hard to elude the bats. You say that this is only a 3d6 damage, but I have some doubt about this. It is is also, at least, 3 more saves. As the description on the speel and the description of the swarm type, the bats should SEEK the foe, even if Manzarf is able to have a round without the swarm upon him, the swarm sees where Manzarf is gone and would pursue him. IMHO The only chance is if Manzarf got invisible and not in 20' from the bats. If Manzarf ran around the wall, the bats didn't see through walls but they know that he is gone behind the wall and should seek him. They don't forgot about him, he is their prey. A bat swarm "seeks" to surround and attack... If you would rule that the swarm "forgot" their target if the target is behind a wall (and the bats see this) I would accept your ruling, but please let me say that this is, at least, strange. About the concentration issue, even if the caster should be in range, it would be not a problem for the warded invisible wizard to stay within 35'. It was discussed in the tavern about the protection from evil and the summon swarm, it was said that swarm could not touch and attack the warded creature, so it is again very strange that you rule that the warded creature would be still nauseated. Again I would accept this if you rule in this way, but these things let me think what I said before, that you would prefer no changes in the result. I agree that, even if invisible, the swarm will attack me if they come in 20' but i think this should be very difficult in a so large arena, and also Manzarf could not bring the swarm upon me because he does not see an invisible wizard. The wizard is smart enough to keep away from the combat and will move at half speed while concentrating to keep better position. As last thing let me see that I will gladly accept the loss, there is absolutely no problem, but that I have problems to accept are "strange" things. @SoulLord, Macbrea, Luni, Thanks for your posts, I got no time to stay online so I was unable to reply but I was happy to see that this ruling were discussed anyway. |
| Dracazar02-22-06, 06:54 AM | @Ayrynthyn: Some points: 1) In round 5 Cher the Hass' silence interrupt spellcasting. ...spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe. (Exactly who is a foe depends on the invisible character’s perceptions.)... So I think that Hass become immediately visible in round 5 because even if the area "moves" with the crystal the effect is the same. With this, in round 5 and in round 6 the Hippogriff should attack Hass. 2) Main concern: Cher is has Concentration +9 and 10 as strength and dexterity. It is really really really suicidal lose 5+ rounds to break free! It is clear in the tactic to cast defensively if needed. To cast defensively you use concentration checks, so it is not so hard to notice that this character has good concentration skills. I think that with this play to attempt to break free you have decided the fight at round 8, there is no point to go further... It would be fair to continue with the tactic, using spells from memory and scrolls using concentration checks. I'm really sad, you used Cher armless pincushion, this is not fair fight. Excuse me for my words, there is nothing personal, only bitterness. EDIT: Cher has not SM3 scrolls, she should have casted from memory, so I assume that, for now, no SM scrolls are used (modify used expendables). SM2 should have been used while entangled. EDIT2: strikethrought because didn't noticed the silence |
| Vathelokai02-22-06, 07:18 AM | Link to fight @Ayrynthyn: Some points: 1) In round 5 Cher the Hass' silence interrupt spellcasting. So I think that Hass become immediately visible in round 5 because even if the area "moves" with the crystal the effect is the same. With this, in round 5 and in round 6 the Hippogriff should attack Hass. That's interesting. I didn't think of it that way when I wrote the tactics, but it might work that way. I'd like to hear some other peoples opinions. 2) Main concern: Cher is has Concentration +9 and 10 as strength and dexterity. It is really really really suicidal lose 5+ rounds to break free! It is clear in the tactic to cast defensively if needed. I believe that she cannot cast because she is inside the silence area. That was the idea of my tactic; to trap the psilence crystal and Cher in the same area so she could do no verbal components. |
| LLMadCow02-22-06, 07:27 AM | Alright, I just cooked my secon dpower supply in as many months and lost the work I had done on Harvester vs. Cyra. I will try to get up and muddle through it on my roommate's compy (she is doing her online class midterm right now) before I go to work, but if anyone is just dying to pick the fight up (please do!) the set up is here. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8496650&postcount=242) Sorry gang...I don't normally leave things this late, and I don't have any failsafe time this week. Good news is that I am off next Sunday so I get plenty of time to run this week upcoming. I'll take it, please just PM me with the details. LLMC |
| Dracazar02-22-06, 07:54 AM | Link to fight That's interesting. I didn't think of it that way when I wrote the tactics, but it might work that way. I'd like to hear some other peoples opinions. I believe that she cannot cast because she is inside the silence area. That was the idea of my tactic; to trap the psilence crystal and Cher in the same area so she could do no verbal components. About Silence spell and Invisibility: Yes, I would be a big issue if it is not so. About Psicrystal: I'm sorry, I didn't understood that. My fault. |
| Ayrynthyn02-22-06, 08:06 AM | @Ayrynthyn: 1) In round 5 Cher the Hass' silence interrupt spellcasting. So I think that Hass become immediately visible in round 5 because even if the area "moves" with the crystal the effect is the same. With this, in round 5 and in round 6 the Hippogriff should attack Hass. I can buy this...100%, however keeping the Rolls in place the Hippogriff fails its save vs the Protect from Law (in round 6) and thus would fail the save in round 5 making any attack on Hassan moot. Once you were entangled, i scoured your sheet looking for something, anything. Now that ive slept on it, and re-reviewed... it may have been more effective for me to pull your crossbow or... i dunno. Hind sight is always 20/20. Again I appologize for the lateness, and the "pincusion-ess". Let me know if there are any other thoughts. |
| Begferdeth02-22-06, 08:32 AM | @Begferdeth: It is strengthened that bats will see further than 20' as you first ruled the fight. It is quite strengthened that the wizard can keep concentration even if not within the initial casting of the summoned creature. Even with this two points (and you agree with them) it seems (it is my impression) that you are attempting to find some reasons to minimize these issues and let the result of the fights as it is. Actually, I was agreeing with the 'you have to stay in range to concentrate thing'. You know that the speed of the swarm of bats is 40' and the speed of Manzarf is 30' so I think it should be hard to elude the bats. You say that this is only a 3d6 damage, but I have some doubt about this. It is is also, at least, 3 more saves. As the description on the speel and the description of the swarm type, the bats should SEEK the foe, even if Manzarf is able to have a round without the swarm upon him, the swarm sees where Manzarf is gone and would pursue him. IMHO The only chance is if Manzarf got invisible and not in 20' from the bats. If Manzarf ran around the wall, the bats didn't see through walls but they know that he is gone behind the wall and should seek him. They don't forgot about him, he is their prey. A bat swarm "seeks" to surround and attack... If you would rule that the swarm "forgot" their target if the target is behind a wall (and the bats see this) I would accept your ruling, but please let me say that this is, at least, strange. From the spell, it says that the bats go after anything in its area. It then goes after the nearest creature. When he went around the wall, there was no 'nearest creature' they could detect. Its not 1 creature with a memory, its 1000 creatures chasing whatever they can get. About the concentration issue, even if the caster should be in range, it would be not a problem for the warded invisible wizard to stay within 35'. You said yourself, Manzarf can only move 30, bats move 40. While concentrating, you move 30, and have no way to do a double move. It was discussed in the tavern about the protection from evil and the summon swarm, it was said that swarm could not touch and attack the warded creature, so it is again very strange that you rule that the warded creature would be still nauseated. Again I would accept this if you rule in this way, but these things let me think what I said before, that you would prefer no changes in the result. Well, I missed that discussion. Its been a busy week. I also said they couldnt hurt you, but they would still swarm you. And the 'nausea' description doesnt say anything about them having to touch you, just that you have to 'start the turn in their area'. If the ruling from before went the other way, fine, but they would still be all over you. I agree that, even if invisible, the swarm will attack me if they come in 20' but i think this should be very difficult in a so large arena, and also Manzarf could not bring the swarm upon me because he does not see an invisible wizard. The wizard is smart enough to keep away from the combat and will move at half speed while concentrating to keep better position. Manzarf could bring the swarm upon you, since I had him moving towards wherever he heard you wizard moving. In fact, he did so during the fight. On his first blind run towards where he heard you moving. You only have a +3 MS, he has a +7 listen. The odds are good he will know which direction you are in. Anyways, I have to run for work. Sorry that the fight didnt go your way, but a second level spell shouldnt be the Ultimate Weapon your are trying to convince me it is. If you want to convince somebody else to run it, go for it, but I dont have time before the deadline... sorry. |
| Stormwind02-22-06, 08:41 AM | @Huan: In Samuel vs Sdentch the guild rewards are incorrect. They should be PSI 340gp, WAR 113gp Also in Quest - Dread Aim (EL 4), there should be a guild reward for PSI of 480gp @Warclone: In Leif vs Karen the guild rewards are incorrect. They should be CEF 220gp, PSI 66gp |
| Macbrea02-22-06, 09:14 AM | OK, here is were we are sitting at this point. LEVEL 3 FIGHTS Secropiagor (kedi) vs. Mizay Alamak (Katana) : Begferdeth [Week 2] (Begferdeth commented on this one was a surrender, but not posted yet) Tueor (MysticMonk2005) vs. Hexacious (Turin) : Kedi LEVEL 4 FIGHTS Eiletha (Kaigan) vs. Cid Highwing (Dr.Funk) : Lucanthrope [Week 2] Jonathon (Abyssal Stalker) vs. Tan (Book5) : Shadowmaster LEVEL 6 FIGHTS The Harvester (Caterane) vs. Cyra Val (Stormwind) : MitzaVolchenko (Mitza is having computer hardware problems if someone can pick this one up) |
| Macbrea02-22-06, 09:21 AM | This isn't bad for us on the Wednesday morning. Only a few fights that need to be finished. |
| Dracazar02-22-06, 09:22 AM | ROUND 5: Drac: 15/15, (1,13), PE (5), Invisible (36) Manzarf: 38/40, (4,12), bleeding Bats: 13/13, (-8,12) http://www.hwx.it/coco/coco.php;v=1;a=Drac,M,1,13,at 1,13;b=Manz,M,4,12,at 4,12;c=Bats,L,-8,12,at -8,12;style=s Drac: 15/15, (2,7), PE (4), Invisible (35) Manzarf: 31/40, (1,5), bleeding Bats: 13/13, (4,12) http://www.hwx.it/coco/coco.php;v=1;a=Drac,M,1,13,2,7,at 2,7;b=Manz,M,4,12,1,5,at 1,5;c=Bats,L,-8,12,3,12,at 3,12;style=s Drac: 15/15, (-4,7), PE (3), Invisible (34) Manzarf: 27/40, (-4,5), bleeding Bats: 13/13, (2,5) http://www.hwx.it/coco/coco.php;v=1;a=Drac,M,2,7,-4,7,at -4,7;b=Manz,M,1,5,-4,5,at -4,5;c=Bats,L,4,12,1,6,at 1,6;style=s In Round 7 Manz ends the rounds in 2,5 (as you wrote) and is visible to the bats, so I don't understand why you don't attacked. The bats, with no idea where anybody is, continue to fly about. (random direction: southeast!) http://www.hwx.it/coco/coco.php;v=1;a=Drac,M,-4,7,at -4,7;b=Manz,M,-4,5,at -4,5;c=Bats,L,1,6,at 1,6;style=s The bats cleary see Manz, and should continue attacking him. So in round 9 Drac should still maintain concentration and the swarm of bats should still attack Manz From the spell, it says that the bats go after anything in its area. It then goes after the nearest creature. When he went around the wall, there was no 'nearest creature' they could detect. Its not 1 creature with a memory, its 1000 creatures chasing whatever they can get ...A swarm is a collection of Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creatures that acts as a single creature... ...A swarm of Diminutive creatures consists of 1,500 nonflying creatures or 5,000 flying creatures... I'm unable to read anywhere that "It then goes after the nearest creature". There 5.000 bats but they acts as single creature. Swarm of Bats has Int 2, the same intellect of an animal. You are saying that if a druid commands the animal companion to attack a foe, and the foe turn around the wall, the animal is unable to pursue the foe? You said yourself, Manzarf can only move 30, bats move 40. While concentrating, you move 30, and have no way to do a double move Yes, but the bat could attack Manzarf for 3 or more rounds (beside the issue on round 7) and Manzarf also need more saving throws. I think that it would be fair if you add these things to the fight. Anyways, I have to run for work. Sorry that the fight didnt go your way, but a second level spell shouldnt be the Ultimate Weapon your are trying to convince me it is. If you want to convince somebody else to run it, go for it, but I dont have time before the deadline... sorry I was quite sure that you would have not changed the fight, even if there are evident errors in your pitlording. It is clear from your posts. @Elders I know that we are still discussing about it but, if able, I would like an arbitrate on this fight. |
| Macbrea02-22-06, 09:30 AM | Dracazar the swarms summoned by the Summons swarm follow the rules of the spell. Not that it changes the situation. As going around a corner doesn't protect you entirely from the person knowing you traveled around a corner. They will follow around the corner to the best of their ability. Summon Swarm Conjuration (Summoning) Level: Brd 2, Drd 2, Sor/Wiz 2 Components: V, S, M/DF Casting Time: 1 round Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Effect: One swarm of bats, rats, or spiders Duration: Concentration + 2 rounds Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No You summon a swarm of bats, rats, or spiders (your choice), which attacks all other creatures within its area. (You may summon the swarm so that it shares the area of other creatures.) If no living creatures are within its area, the swarm attacks or pursues the nearest creature as best it can. The caster has no control over its target or direction of travel. Arcane Material Component A square of red clot It doesn't change the fact the the swarm would make a standard spot vs hide check with the knowledge that the only living creature it is allowed to attack in the arena had gone around a corner. A Druid by the way needs to be very careful with this spell as summoning a swarm while you have an animal companion next to you could result in the companion being the closest target. This would look very ugly when a bat swarm eats a persons pet. |
| Dracazar02-22-06, 09:40 AM | I can buy this...100%, however keeping the Rolls in place the Hippogriff fails its save vs the Protect from Law (in round 6) and thus would fail the save in round 5 making any attack on Hassan moot. Once you were entangled, i scoured your sheet looking for something, anything. Now that ive slept on it, and re-reviewed... it may have been more effective for me to pull your crossbow or... i dunno. Hind sight is always 20/20. Again I appologize for the lateness, and the "pincusion-ess". Let me know if there are any other thoughts. /agree |
| Dracazar02-22-06, 09:45 AM | Dracazar the swarms summoned by the Summons swarm follow the rules of the spell. Not that it changes the situation. As going around a corner doesn't protect you entirely from the person knowing you traveled around a corner. They will follow around the corner to the best of their ability. I absolutely agree with you, the swarm attacks or pursues the nearest creature as best it can. This means that the swarm pursues Manz as best it can, and I think that this does not means that if the foe turn around a wall and the bats see this they stop attacking. This is what I'm saying. It doesn't change the fact the the swarm would make a standard spot vs hide check with the knowledge that the only living creature it is allowed to attack in the arena had gone around a corner. /agree The problem is that, as you can read, Begferdeth ruled in all other way. |
| Dracazar02-22-06, 09:47 AM | That was the idea of my tactic; to trap the psilence crystal and Cher in the same area so she could do no verbal components. Let me say this: really nicely won. Congrats. |
| Mal-202-22-06, 10:21 AM | A Druid by the way needs to be very careful with this spell as summoning a swarm while you have an animal companion next to you could result in the companion being the closest target. This would look very ugly when a bat swarm eats a persons pet. Um, is there anything that prevents the swarm from eating the druid too? Or are you assuming the druid would have a Protection vs Alignment spell up? Hmm, that doesn't seem right. If the swarm will go after the druid, it seems like it would be pretty easy for your opponent to ditch the swarm and get it to attack the caster instead (by moving father from the swarm than the druid currently is). |
| Macbrea02-22-06, 10:29 AM | Actually, by strict reading of summon swarm nothing protects the druid from their own swarm. The closest target gets the swarm. This would be very much in line with how creeping doom used to work. A druid wouldn't cast creeping doom and run through it. They would die. The advantage that the druid has is that they can place the swarm where they want it. It would be a safe assumption on the druids part if the opponent runs away or runs to you and grapples you. You should either put more distance between you then your opponent or stop concentrating on the swarm. |
| Abyssal Stalker02-22-06, 10:59 AM | http://www.hwx.it/coco/coco.php;v=1;a=Drac,M,1,13,at 1,13;b=Manz,M,4,12,at 4,12;c=Bats,L,-8,12,at -8,12;style=s http://www.hwx.it/coco/coco.php;v=1;a=Drac,M,1,13,2,7,at 2,7;b=Manz,M,4,12,1,5,at 1,5;c=Bats,L,-8,12,3,12,at 3,12;style=s http://www.hwx.it/coco/coco.php;v=1;a=Drac,M,2,7,-4,7,at -4,7;b=Manz,M,1,5,-4,5,at -4,5;c=Bats,L,4,12,1,6,at 1,6;style=s In Round 7 Manz ends the rounds in 2,5 (as you wrote) and is visible to the bats, so I don't understand why you don't attacked. http://www.hwx.it/coco/coco.php;v=1;a=Drac,M,-4,7,at -4,7;b=Manz,M,-4,5,at -4,5;c=Bats,L,1,6,at 1,6;style=s The bats cleary see Manz, and should continue attacking him. So in round 9 Drac should still maintain concentration and the swarm of bats should still attack Manz I'm unable to read anywhere that "It then goes after the nearest creature". There 5.000 bats but they acts as single creature. Swarm of Bats has Int 2, the same intellect of an animal. You are saying that if a druid commands the animal companion to attack a foe, and the foe turn around the wall, the animal is unable to pursue the foe? Yes, but the bat could attack Manzarf for 3 or more rounds (beside the issue on round 7) and Manzarf also need more saving throws. I think that it would be fair if you add these things to the fight. I was quite sure that you would have not changed the fight, even if there are evident errors in your pitlording. It is clear from your posts. @Elders I know that we are still discussing about it but, if able, I would like an arbitrate on this fight. Your maps are different from the map that Begferdeth has added to the fight. The thing behind this seems to be that for some odd reason Begferdeth has used Y,X-coordinates instead of the standard X,Y-coordinates. If you look at Begferdeth's map, you'll see what he means by Manzarf being out of the bats sight. I either don't like how things are, but I hope that we are coming to a reasonable solution in this one as quickly as possible. My other characters fight seems to go to next week and I'd really like to see this one ready this week. I even started Pitlording to get my characters running and now it seems that I'm getting nowhere with them... :raincloud |
| Myrridin02-22-06, 11:18 AM | Wow, so the dice gods hated me in my fight. I just want to point out that the critical hit didn't confirm. You rolled to confirm the crit twice with a +12 modifier, and the first time rolled and hit AC 23..my AC was 24 at that point, due to Haste. Now I could've missed something, but I didn't see two attacks that hit, the crit does hurt an awful lot. If I missed it, just ignore me, if not...well, there's still a decent chance I wouldn't have won, due to my incredible bad luck in hitting Lissa. *shrug* Your call, just bringing it up, as I saw it from the rolls in the fight. |
| King Uther02-22-06, 11:43 AM | @Kaigan Ajora the Light, Avatar of Life challenges Gundir Malakas to a duel. As always, you are not required to accept and I will pay the 2 credits. I've got 2 arrows with his name etched into it. Literally. |
| Kaigan02-22-06, 12:02 PM | @Kaigan Ajora the Light, Avatar of Life challenges Gundir Malakas to a duel. As always, you are not required to accept and I will pay the 2 credits. I've got 2 arrows with his name etched into it. Literally. I will accept. This will be difficult, but that's why I'm accepting. And as long as you cover the credit cost. Not that your in short supply of credits. |
| Caterane02-22-06, 12:11 PM | The Harvester challenges Gundir too (before the nice powerrating goes away :D) |
| Kaigan02-22-06, 12:13 PM | The Harvester challenges Gundir too (before the nice powerrating goes away :D) Next week? |
| Dracazar02-22-06, 12:33 PM | Your maps are different from the map that Begferdeth has added to the fight. The thing behind this seems to be that for some odd reason Begferdeth has used Y,X-coordinates instead of the standard X,Y-coordinates. If you look at Begferdeth's map, you'll see what he means by Manzarf being out of the bats sight. I either don't like how things are, but I hope that we are coming to a reasonable solution in this one as quickly as possible. My other characters fight seems to go to next week and I'd really like to see this one ready this week. I even started Pitlording to get my characters running and now it seems that I'm getting nowhere with them... :raincloud Even with Y,X coordinates instead of X,Y coordinate the map should be the same but rotated, so there would be still LoS. The main concern is that Begferdeth says that Manz turn around the wall and the swarm stop attacking so the result is the same and he does not need editing, because he has no time. Now it is quite sure, even reading other comments, that swarm pursue the foe even behind the wall because the swarm has still some intelligence (same as animal, 2). This fight should need editing, but the pitlord wont/cant edit. Now because this is the first time that this happens to me, I'm kindly asking someone: what to do? We weren't speaking of arbitrate? I'm ok even with this unfair loss, but let me (and Abyssal) know, so we could edit sheets. |
| Stormwind02-22-06, 01:13 PM | @LLMadCow: Firstly, thanks for running the fight Harvester vs Cyra. There are a couple of points I would like to make that affect the fight: Round 11&12: The Harvester detects magical aura's on Cyra. This is impossible this round since there is more than 1ft of stone is between them (as Detect magic description) since Cyra is at (+4,-5; 50ft), and Harvester is at (+10,-12; 50ft) Round 13: The Harvester autospots Cyra. According to your own ruling in the Ask an Elder thread (within 1ft per rank in hide of cover), since Cyra is at (+4,-5; 50ft) and this is within 5ft of cover (+5,-4; 50ft), she may hide. Thus should not be spotted. Since it is getting so close to pairings I understand if you are not able to fix this before pairings. However if you are able to, it would be appreciated. Storm |
| SauroGrenom02-22-06, 01:25 PM | It didn't come up in the Harvester/Cyra fight, but I noticed in the Harvester's tactics that he mentiones blindfight protects him against invisible attackers. This is true against invisible melee attackers, but not invisible ranged attackers. If for some reason Cyra is able to attack with her mindblade, then it may be of importance. |
| Caterane02-22-06, 02:04 PM | I can answer these questions, too :) Round 11&12: The Harvester detects magical aura's on Cyra. This is impossible this round since there is more than 1ft of stone is between them (as Detect magic description) since Cyra is at (+4,-5; 50ft), and Harvester is at (+10,-12; 50ft) That doesn't matter at all. In Rnd 10, the Harvester flew 30ft when he detected the magic and immideately stopped there. If the detection was prevented at that point, he would have continued to fly on (there are still 30ft movement left in him) which is enough so that there's a LOE in the same round. No difference at all. Round 13: The Harvester autospots Cyra. According to your own ruling in the Ask an Elder thread (within 1ft per rank in hide of cover), since Cyra is at (+4,-5; 50ft) and this is within 5ft of cover (+5,-4; 50ft), she may hide. Thus should not be spotted. Nah nah, you're confusing the rules. You don't have hide in plain sight. You need cover to hide and you did not have cover relative to the Harvester. According to your theory, I could have been 5ft right infront of you and would still not see you because you lean against a wall behind you? You can't be serious. |
| Macbrea02-22-06, 02:13 PM | Actually, that should hold true cat. In the following example red moves and hides because he breaks line of sight. If red has 5 ranks of hide he is still considered hidden even if blue moves to the location that he does in this image. http://www.hwx.it/coco/coco.php;v=1;a=Jon,M,-1,6,-1,2;b=Bob,M,-6,7,-1,11 |
| Abyssal Stalker02-22-06, 02:26 PM | OK, I'm going to edit Manzarf! |
| Stormwind02-22-06, 03:03 PM | I can answer these questions, too :) That doesn't matter at all. In Rnd 10, the Harvester flew 30ft when he detected the magic and immideately stopped there. If the detection was prevented at that point, he would have continued to fly on (there are still 30ft movement left in him) which is enough so that there's a LOE in the same round. No difference at all. All true. However the way the fight is currently written, Harvester cannot pinpoint with detect magic in round 11. Hence the reason I brought it up. It should be corrected or at least noted since it is a mistake. Of course you are 100% correct that it doesn't change the fight but I believe it is better to note these things. Nah nah, you're confusing the rules. You don't have hide in plain sight. You need cover to hide and you did not have cover relative to the Harvester. According to your theory, I could have been 5ft right infront of you and would still not see you because you lean against a wall behind you? You can't be serious. Actually my understanding of the rules is exactly as Macbrea shows. The rules don't always make perfect sense but I don't see another way to interpret that section of the rules. In other words, if my interpretation is incorrect then how should the following be interpreted, particuulary the bolded section (emphasis mine): Sneaking: You are autospotted if you leave cover or concealment, and opponent has Line of Sight to you and you are more than 1 foot per rank in hide away from a cover. Either way Cat, I'm quite prepared to take the loss. Your tactics were definitely superior, and I had completely forgotten to add contingencies to deal with your invisibility. |
| Caterane02-22-06, 03:12 PM | I know that rule but you need to highlight the word "cover". If you have no cover - and you don't have cover if I have a LOS - then you cannot hide. You need hide in plain sight for that. @Macbrea: You want to tell me that blue doesn't see red here: http://www.hwx.it/coco/coco.php;v=1;a=Name,M,-15,10;b=Name,M,-15,5,-15,9 Here's an example for when the 1rank rule kicks in: http://www.hwx.it/coco/coco.php;v=1;a=Name,M,-14,12,-12,14;b=Name,M,-7,8 Red moves into LOS but is within 1ft per rank of a cover. If red would however stop in the middle he would be auto-spotted. If red wouldn't have 5 ranks in hide, he would be auto-spotted aswell. |
| Malither7602-22-06, 03:22 PM | Yeah I agree with cat, in his example red would remain hidden until blue moved up and denied cover which would allow blue to autospot |
| Stormwind02-22-06, 03:25 PM | I know that rule but you need to highlight the word "cover". If you have no cover - and you don't have cover if I have a LOS - then you cannot hide. You need hide in plain sight for that. @Macbrea: You want to tell me that blue doesn't see red here: http://www.hwx.it/coco/coco.php;v=1;a=Name,M,-15,10;b=Name,M,-15,5,-15,9 I agree entirely that in your example that red would need hide in plain sight. However in Round 13 Cyra (blue) is at (+4,-5; 50ft) and this is within 5ft of cover(dark blue) (+5,-4; 50ft) respective to the Harvester (red) at (+4,-12; 50ft) http://www.hwx.it/coco/coco.php;v=1;a=Name,M,4,-12;b=Name,M,5,-4,4,-5 And according to the ruling the the Ask an Elder thread, it is actual distance, not move distance that is used. |
| Book502-22-06, 03:49 PM | LEVEL 4 FIGHTS Jonathon (Abyssal Stalker) vs. Tan (Book5) : Shadowmaster Shadowmaster? hmmm... eh I get "two active characters" this week .. right? Tan (week2) and Ba'al (week1) ? |
| Caterane02-22-06, 03:53 PM | @Stormwind: Now I see what you mean and I agree. That doesn't change anything still because the Harvester would then have moved somewhere else. I wrote to negate cover and I would have flewn to negate cover. I know exactly your position and I am invisible so I am under no pressure. I have to do the pairings now. |
| Macbrea02-22-06, 04:11 PM | @Macbrea: You want to tell me that blue doesn't see red here: http://www.hwx.it/coco/coco.php;v=1;a=Name,M,-15,10;b=Name,M,-15,5,-15,9 Actually, According to our rules Blue does not see Red if Red was already hiding and has 15 ranks of hiding. As Red is 15ft away from cover at the point Red is at. Those are the rules we have been playing with for awhile. |
| Stormwind02-22-06, 04:30 PM | Actually, According to our rules Blue does not see Red if Red was already hiding and has 15 ranks of hiding. As Red is 15ft away from cover at the point Red is at. Those are the rules we have been playing with for awhile. Actually wouldn't 10 ranks of Hide be sufficient as each end of the stone wall gives red cover(dark red) with respect to blue. http://www.hwx.it/coco/coco.php;v=1;a=Name,M,-13,11,-15,10;b=Name,M,-15,5,-15,9 |
| Macbrea02-22-06, 04:33 PM | Actually, if we are just using direct distance you would be correct. |
| Ayrynthyn02-22-06, 04:36 PM | 15 ranks illustrates the point more precisely, but i could make the arguement for 10. In either case you'd need to be 7th or 12th level to have those ranks (and what are you doin pickin on poor defenseless Harvester {ECL 6} ;) ). It is the main reason why i dropped both my "hiding" characters. Just ask Instacio (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7994873&postcount=573) with his possible 30 hide, but only 6 ranks. :/ |
| Macbrea02-22-06, 04:41 PM | At some point, I am going to go into a very longwinded explination post with pictures of what is considered hiding and what not. With examples, in order to link it to Marcus' character sheet and tactics permanently. I am basicly waiting until he levels again before doing that. As that will put me at 10 ranks of hide. And since, that seems to be the point were most pitlords fail to understand exactly what is hiding and what isn't hiding in the arena. So, if I go into a huge post in the tavern at some point Don't mind me. I am doing it for my own sanity! |
| Macbrea02-22-06, 04:52 PM | Errr,the Grik fight isn't missing. It was the first fight Posted. |
| SoulLord02-22-06, 04:52 PM | Better write it as a guide an open a new thread for it. MacBreas Guide to Hiding in the Arena |
| Macbrea02-22-06, 05:02 PM | LEVEL 3 FIGHTS Secropiagor (kedi) vs. Mizay Alamak (Katana) : Begferdeth [Week 3] Tueor (MysticMonk2005) vs. Hexacious (Turin) : x [Week 2] Tai-Rath'os (malakaiunseen) vs. Finrod (Lonewolf) : DSugui [Week 2][fight] Loddick (Erithmu) vs. Valek (DSugui) : Abyssal Stalker [Week 2][fight] Emon (Kaigan) vs. Korinel (Argaud) vs. Dordleton (nickbeat) : King Uther [All-vs-All] [Week 2][fight] LEVEL 4 FIGHTS Eiletha (Kaigan) vs. Cid Highwing (Dr.Funk) : Lucanthrope [Week 3] Histal (waywreth) vs. Zwei (MitzaVolchenko) : Turin [Week 2][fight] Jonathon (Abyssal Stalker) vs. Tan (Book5) : Shadowmaster [Week 2] LEVEL 5 FIGHTS Lord Frost (Macbrea) vs. Sola Nicous (Erithmu) : Stormwind [Week 2][Fight] LEVEL 6 FIGHTS LEVEL 7 FIGHTS Grik Bladehammer (Snommelp) vs. Unknown Monster : Macbrea [Monster] [Week 2][Fight] LEVEL 8 FIGHTS LEVEL 9 FIGHTS |
| Begferdeth02-22-06, 06:19 PM | Secropiagor vs Mizay Almak (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8538798&postcount=279) is up. I didnt realize I needed to put in a post when one side just surrenders. On the other fight, which is such a problem... Drac, my map is what I went by. If my coordinates were off, its because I messed up writing them down one round. I draw the move on my map, count off the squares to make sure how far they can go, and then at the end of the round I write down the coordinates. Sometimes I mess up in transferring them... those squares are small and hard to follow out to the edges! Sorry if this got you confused somewhere along the line. :( Next, Im still not sure who won the 'concentration range' arguement. You say its you, but the only rules quote so far has been against you. I dont want to run it wrong, then have somebody pop in again with 'look, it was the other way the whole time' and have to do it again. Im quite willing to do a rerun, its just I had no time to do it. I actually left for work less than 5 minutes after my last post. Is it still ok to do a rerun this late too? If it is, Im willing to do it. |
| Macbrea02-22-06, 06:31 PM | Yup, have to put up surrenders. As both sides need to link to the fight to show their winnings and for audit purposes. |
| Myrridin02-22-06, 08:22 PM | I could use the rewards/used items for my fight as well, Morgan vs. Lissa. I think I've counted up the expendables used correctly, but I haven't done the XP/gold...and could've used that for this week. |
| Luni02-22-06, 08:29 PM | I could use the rewards/used items for my fight as well, Morgan vs. Lissa. I think I've counted up the expendables used correctly, but I haven't done the XP/gold...and could've used that for this week. On it. Ally Penalty: 4.17% on Lissa Lissa gets +2400 xp, 3400 gp -4.17%= 2299 xp, 3258 gp Morgan gets +800 xp, 1133 gp +4.17%= 833 xp, 1180 gp. You are on your own for items used though. @Myrridin send this as a PM to Iced. As for this weeks pairings, hmm. Send a PM to Pitlords, saying the rewards were missing from your fight and that is why your character was updated late. Link this post in the PM to Pitlords, as I don't think Cat has done the pairings yet. |
| Myrridin02-23-06, 09:00 AM | Thanks Luni, I appreciate it a lot. |
| Abyssal Stalker02-23-06, 09:14 AM | Next, Im still not sure who won the 'concentration range' arguement. You say its you, but the only rules quote so far has been against you. I dont want to run it wrong, then have somebody pop in again with 'look, it was the other way the whole time' and have to do it again. Im quite willing to do a rerun, its just I had no time to do it. I actually left for work less than 5 minutes after my last post. Is it still ok to do a rerun this late too? If it is, Im willing to do it. The "concentration range" argument was solved in the ask an elder thread. The target must stay within the spells range, otherwise the casters concentration is broken. You can find the ruling here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8529943&postcount=169). I have already edited Manzarf, since I wanted him to get paired this week. It's enough that my other characters fight was carried on to this week. I might be selfish, but for me it seems too late for a re-run. But if Dracazar insist it, I guess that I can always go and edit Manzarf one level back... |
| LLMadCow02-23-06, 10:37 AM | Okay, so I made a few mistakes. I do apologize. As per Harvesters' tactics, I should have had his movements be a bit different, since the intent was there, and when he stopped short of being able to spot you, he would have finished his move. I am going to leave the fight stand as it is. I do feel that even with the small errors Harvester wins the fight, and so I am going to leave it be. Thank you for understanding. Actually my understanding of the rules is exactly as Macbrea shows. The rules don't always make perfect sense but I don't see another way to interpret that section of the rules. In other words, if my interpretation is incorrect then how should the following be interpreted, particuulary the bolded section (emphasis mine): Sneaking: You are autospotted if you leave cover or concealment, and opponent has Line of Sight to you and you are more than 1 foot per rank in hide away from a cover. Okay, so we need to slightly modify the wording for clarity. Exact wording to be determined, but the basic idea of this ruling was to allow the sneakier characters some limited amount of movement from cover to cover. This prevents them being autospotted when they have to dash from cover to cover, so long as they have enough ranks. If they stopped in the middle and just stood there, they would be autospotted. This is my initial idea of how the wording should read for the Sneaking rule... Sneaking: You are autospotted if you leave cover or concealment, and opponent has Line of Sight to you; while moving from cover to cover, you can remain hidden as long as you are no more than 1 foot per rank in hide away from a cover. |
| Pitlords02-23-06, 11:40 AM | You are autospotted if you leave cover or concealment, and opponent has Line of Sight to you; while moving from cover to cover, you can remain hidden as long as you are no more than 1 foot per rank in hide away from a cover. Deal! |