Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jindl 05-20-04, 11:23 AM	Please post any comments and concerns regard the Fights of the Week of 19 May 04 below. And remember to BE NICE !! -Jindl
Tellish_of_Ket 05-20-04, 02:59 PM	GGGgrggrrrrrrrr
Ethendril 05-20-04, 03:14 PM	*Ethendril sees post, goes off whistling as if he didn't see anything* EDIT: @Tellish...not that I don't want to discuss this, but I'll wait for Jindl to respond.
Jindl 05-20-04, 03:24 PM	Would you like to substantiate that claim by telling me what exactly was changed "minutes before pairings" as you put it? I already know what was changed, it was two memorized spells. That's only two out of my entire spell list. All other items/spells had been changed on Tuesday, a full 36 hours before pairings. FYI: I knew I would be facing Kelek the entire week, unless you made him inactive. Cat had already told me that both of his would be out, and barrel had made Paul Hector his gladiator for the week. So it's not like it was a big surprise that Kelek would be Aku's opponent. If there was some change you wanted to make based on the fact that Aku would be your opponent, feel free to mention it. And if you are so concerned about those two spells, then I can declare the two previous spells and just memorize the two new ones as part of my "undeclared" spells that I send to the pitlord. -Jindl
Tellish_of_Ket 05-20-04, 03:43 PM	I did make my changes on or about the same time you did. Yes we knew we were facing each other and i never made any changes after our a day or so before pairings were announced. But your pre-mem'd spell list is very different, and not just by two spells either. Blah, now you're just gonna downplay it like it was nothing. Like editing your character minutes before YOU the CoCo moderator is no big deal. LIke giving yourself unfair advantages over others is no big deal. Like i'm making a big deal for nothing, because i stupidly didn't print out your character sheet yesterday to study at work today so i can't prove everything that's changed is no big deal. Whatever....take your win. Of course, you are the ever-smoothe talker. Vs my uncanny rage, you win. Take it and leave me be. This is sad...sad indeed. -ToK
MotherBast 05-20-04, 04:14 PM	This isen't my argument at all, but I would just like to step in here and say that I too have noticed this happening, and not just this time. Jindl, you have developed a habit of altering your sheets on wednesdays. Concidering you are the person responsible for pairings, this is highly unethical in my opinion. While no rule says you can not do this, I would think your position of athority in the arena would hold you to a higher moral code. You have a responsibility, and using it to your advantage is not cool. On the same token, I think TOK is exagerating the situation quite a bit. Still, he has a point. I noticed the same sort of behavior from CAT recently. I quoted him on the Tavern when he said that his challange match would take place and that "was it!". I know he had reasons, but really, that was crossing the line. Again, this is a case of someone with responsibility in the arena not living up to the etichal standards they should hold themselves to. Personaly, I do not think anthing Jindl did really hinders TOK too terrably much in this fight, but if he insists, Jindl has already offered to reset his sheet. That should fix the problem this week. For future weeks, I belive we can trust Jindl if he promises not to edit his sheets after he Posts the "pairings will begin in x hours" post in the tavern. If that isen't enough, the we could alter the rule to state that noone is allowed to alter sheets on wednesday. That would fix the problem for sure. As far as punishing Jindl, or "seeing something done about this", he really hasen't violated any rules. The behavior may be unethical, but it is legal. And I do not belive Jindl did it with the intent to offend or upset. He just took an advantage. If he were not in the position he was in, it wouldn't even be an issue. That being said, I think both Cat and Jindl need to keep in mind the positions they hold here don't only come with power, but also responsibility and a code of ethics they not only should enforce, but exemplify.
Tellish_of_Ket 05-20-04, 04:17 PM	I am officially asking the elders to vote a loss by default to Aku for such blatant abuse of authority. The Jindlising Continues: "minutes before pairings" as you put it? It's not as i put it, so don't try to downplay it like it's nothing. It literally WAS minutes before. Any idiot can check your last edit on your character sheet and the final edit of the pairings roster to see that there was only a minute or so to edit your character before doing the pairings and postings. I already know what was changed, it was two memorized spells. That's only two out of my entire spell list. It wasn't two mem'd spells, it was at least 3 and some juggling of kit. So Let me get this straight then? It's ok to edit your characters after the pairings so long as you only change up to two spells? 'Cause that's what it sounds like to me. You posted (in green) that pairings were being done and well all know know editing of characters afterwards right? What gives you the right to change it and no one else? And now to sweep it under the rug and say " i can change two back and make everything ok" like it's ok? Hardly. You've done this far too often, and you aren't here for fun like most. You live to crush people and with your savy smooth talk the sheep listen and the herd will follow. Plus LIMIT as the pitlord? No offence, but he's only modded a few fights, now suddenly because he's a supporter of your ideas, he's qualified to run what could be a highly complicated gladiator fight of 12th lvl? Sniff! Sniff! Smell something fishy there. I smell another init-loss/instal kill fight happening. -ToK
Tellish_of_Ket 05-20-04, 04:24 PM	Originally posted by MotherBast On the same token, I think TOK is exagerating the situation quite a bit. Still, he has a point. How am i exaggerating this? He did it...it's clear. The evidence is there. I don't need to exaggerate anything. Personaly, I do not think anthing Jindl did really hinders TOK too terrably much in this fight, but if he insists, Jindl has already offered to reset his sheet. That should fix the problem this week. SO what your saying, is that it's ok to cheat and abuse authority given to you...edit character sheets as you are doing the pairings and then if caught to just say you'll change it back and say it's ok? I don't think so bub. And i think he did do enough to hinder me in this fight. He had all week to edit his character. Editing your character as you are doing the pairings is really, really bad taste. As far as punishing Jindl, or "seeing something done about this", he really hasen't violated any rules. The behavior may be unethical, but it is legal. And I do not belive Jindl did it with the intent to offend or upset. He just took an advantage. If he were not in the position he was in, it wouldn't even be an issue. Legal? Everything here is legal...there are no laws or statutes to say otherwise. What he did was against COCO rules and extremely unethical. You're are 100% right MB. He didn't do it with the intent to offend or upset...he did it with the intent to win/crush/usurp and with the intent of taking the spirit and the fun out what is COCO. I am asking for a simple vote for a default win. Nothing more. At least not at the moment. -ToK
LLMadCow 05-20-04, 04:48 PM	I'm not an Elder or anything, so my word may not count for too much, but reading through this I have a few comments to make. 1. Unless someone else can step forward to say they have a copy of the character sheet before changes, it really means nothing to change it back - not when this is dealing with a serious issue of trust. 2. I recommend that ALL edits to a character sheet that is owned by the PitLord who is doing the pairing this week be done 24 hours prior to pairings. 3. I am inclined to agree that Jindl shouls sit this one out and award the win to Tellish. Do not award a loss to Jindl. Ethics and being a PitLord. As a PitLord we are supposed to be above the worries of such things. We treat each other with respect and courtesy. Sometimes situations will arise and those have to be dealt with diplomatically. It may seem harsh that I say award Tellish the Win, but I also do not say give Jindl a loss. It is always best to avoid the appearance of doing anything wrong. If there is a player at the same level who has not been paired, then let Jindl fight that character. The only way this arena can work is if we trust each other and do our best to get along.
Caterane 05-20-04, 05:30 PM	@Jindl: I wrote you an email.
Magagumo 05-20-04, 05:35 PM	Hmm... I think we all need to take a deep breath. Honestly, I think ToK is taking this a bit far: Yes, I think Jindl took advantage of timing, and I think that Aku's sheet should be reverted, but this instant win/lose scenario benefits no one. For one who accuses his opponent of desiring only to win, ToK, you are demanding that your builds not be tested vs. one another, and that Kelek essentially gains a free level. Remember the fun, ladies and genetlemen, that's why we're all here. Personally, I say Aku should revert (this is itself a strict measure, but some minor reprimand is in line for Jindl's actions) and then they fight. Any comments about Limit's qualifications as a Mod is a slap in his face- we all eventually had to take on our first big fight, and he has shown himself to be attentive to tactics, as well as giving good detail of fight dealings. Also, he has demonstrated a willingness to learn from his mistakes, and I think he is one of the better of our newer Mods. Now then, let's drop this circus of anger and blame, and just have some fun, alright?
Limit 05-20-04, 05:37 PM	Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket Plus LIMIT as the pitlord? No offence, but he's only modded a few fights, now suddenly because he's a supporter of your ideas, he's qualified to run what could be a highly complicated gladiator fight of 12th lvl? Sniff! Sniff! Smell something fishy there. I smell another init-loss/instal kill fight happening. I understand that you are upset because of your perceptions, but there is no need to bring my name into your rants. As for my abilities, I can only stand by my record. I volunteered to become a Pitlord as soon as I qualified (two fights on my character) and have been doing it ever since. I have not used any of the benefits of being a Pitlord (multiple characters, higher ECL characters) and I do this because it is fun for me. My gaming group has been together for many years with me as the DM, but we only can play every other weekend, so CoCo allows me to play D&D, a game I enjoy, other times. As you can see from my credits list I have run eight fights since I have volunteered to be a Pitlord, and in those eight fights, I have not had any major complaints from any player. In most cases, there was nothing said at all. High Level fights? I ran a level 10 and a level 11, with no complaints from the 4 players involved. Motherbast and Caterane both did not have any complaints (atleast ones that they voiced) when I was assigned to their ECL 12 fight, which I unfortunately could not run due to personal reasons. Continue to discuss the issues which trouble you with the pairings this week, but please refrain from referencing me in your postings. Thank you.
MotherBast 05-20-04, 05:39 PM	Tellish, I'm on your side for this one bud, no need to get upset at me. The problem is, your mistaken when you say Jindl broke the arena rules. They state that sheets my not be altered "after" pairings. As you said, he altered his sheet minutes before pairings. That is not breaking the rules. Actually, if it had been any other person, MisticMonk for example, this wouldn't even be an issue. No, this is an issue because Jindl is responsible for the pairings. He used that responisbility to gain an advantage. He did not break any rule. But, he did demonstrate very unethical behavior. I would agree that that sort of thing lessens the fun for other players, and it is not in doubt it was done with the intent to win/crush/destroy. The bottom line, however, is that he didn't break any rules. If he did, I would back your automaticly winning the fight. Unfortunatly, not being ethical is not something the rules we have set up in the COCO have guidelines for punishing. The situation needs resolution however, so here is my offer. Kelek, if he so chooses, can postpone his fight with Aku till next week, giving both players time to readjust to the opponit. Or, Kelek can refuse to fight Aku at all, and the fight will simply be called off, and Kelek will recive a did not fight credit. If ToK could trust Jindl enough to do so, Jindl could also be allowed to reset his sheet to the condition it was before the edit. If, after Jindl changes hid sheet, it does not seem to be the way you remember it ToK, you could still take one of the first options. Now, if you really have an issue with Limit, then I will personaly volenter to run this fight. If you want a PL with experience, then few here have more than myself. Personaly, I think Limit is a fine Pitlord, and he has ran a couple of my fights over the last weeks and done very well. I think he could handle the fight. I also don't see any evidence that he is a "Jindl supporter." If anyone could be accused of that it would be me, since I was the only one to agree with him about wildarmor. I don't remember Limit chiming in to support that lost cause. If these suggestions don't meet your satisfaction, then we could discuss the matter further, but as Jindl didn't actually break any rule, I don't think an autowin is a possibility.
Ethendril 05-20-04, 05:44 PM	I'm with Mag on everything he said. I think we need to tone down the rhetoric, especially between the elders. We need to trust each other a bit here. It is true that whoever does the pairings knows what time pairings will be, and therefore has an inherent advantage vis a vis everyone else. However late Jindl edited his sheet, however, it was still before pairings were officially set. I think that to avoid any appearance of inpropriety in the future, however, a new deadline should be instituted for editing character sheets by whoever does pairings.
Limit 05-20-04, 05:47 PM	Originally posted by MotherBast If that isen't enough, the we could alter the rule to state that noone is allowed to alter sheets on wednesday. That would fix the problem for sure. I'd be in support of this idea for future weeks, to help eliminate this and other similar problem. I think it would be better to have a "set" time when characters cannot be editted, rather then be based on when the Pitlord posts the matches. For example, I could be editting my character sheet and hit submit, only to find that the Pitlord posted matches (or "No more changes") while I was typing my changes. A good policy change would be "Wednesday, Noon, GMT" is the deadline for all changes or something similar to that.
LLMadCow 05-20-04, 05:51 PM	Originally posted by Limit I'd be in support of this idea for future weeks, to help eliminate this and other similar problem. I think it would be better to have a "set" time when characters cannot be editted, rather then be based on when the Pitlord posts the matches. For example, I could be editting my character sheet and hit submit, only to find that the Pitlord posted matches (or "No more changes") while I was typing my changes. A good policy change would be "Wednesday, Noon, GMT" is the deadline for all changes or something similar to that. This still does not really solve the problem. I would recommend that the Pitlord in charge of the pairings MUST NOT edit his sheet within 24 hours of the pairings. Otherwise he could edit his sheet at 11:55 AM, GMT on Wednesday and post the Pairings at 12:05 PM, GMT on the same day.
Caterane 05-20-04, 05:52 PM	The bottom line, however, is that he didn't break any rules. If he did, I would back your automaticly winning the fight. Unfortunatly, not being ethical is not something the rules we have set up in the COCO have guidelines for punishing. Oh come on Motherbast, that`s again your "go by the very wording" talk. Having an old grandma sign a contract and robbing her of her money is "legal" too. :thumbsup:
MotherBast 05-20-04, 05:56 PM	Your right CAT. It is legal. The law would not punish you for doing it, and it is highly unethical. That is exactly my point. To have Jindl loose the fight is the punishment for editing his sheet after pairings. He didn't do that, so we can't punish him as if he did. His behavior was unethical, however, and needed to be addressed. Now it has been, and we are aware of the possiblity for abuse in the system, so the system needs to be changed so that this sort of unethical abuse can no longer take place. Thats why I suggested the no editing on Wednesday policy.
Jindl 05-20-04, 06:13 PM	Since Ethendril, MotherBast, Magagumo, and Limit have already said many of the things I would say, I'll only add a bit more: 1. To be clear about what was changed on Wed, Aku swapped his declared memm'd spells: Cloudkill, Dispel Magic, and Grease for Feeblemind, Phantasmal Steed, and True Strike. Of course, Aku has several undeclared slots available at each of those levels, and could have just memmed those spells "undeclared". All other aspects of Aku's sheet, from his equipment, to his skills, to his spells known, has been the same since he was edited on Tuesday. 2. I've already offered to switch these spells back or to allow Tellish to edit Kelek because it seems he is upset that he didn't get to edit him after I edited Aku. It's sort of stupid to be so concerned about this particular instance, since Tellish and I knew we would be facing each other for a couple of days now. We have even sent PM's back and forth starting on Tuesday regarding this fight. 3. Accusing Limit of cheating, accusing me of cheating, accusing others as well; none of this is appropriate behavior. As MotherBast already stated, I didn't break any rules. However, I agree it isn't fair to make major changes to a character and then immediately do pairings. I didn't make major changes to Aku, but I'll still apologize for making minor changes right before pairings. 4. As for LL's idea about the Pitlord having to post his character 24 hours before pairings, that just means that everybody else can adjust based upon my character. That's not fair either. Perhaps the best solution for future weeks is to set a time by which all edits must be done. I don't agree with 12 noon GMT on Wednesday, but only because many of us are in the US and may not even be awake yet. I would suggest 9 pm GMT as a better time, as the Europeans are still awake and the American's shouldn't still be asleep. As for this week, I've already offered two solutions which I think are fair. 1 - Revert the spells which I changed on Aku back to the originals or 2 - Allow Tellish to edit Kelek based upon Aku's new spell's memm'd. In no way is giving a free win or loss an appopriate action. Especially since I followed the rules as they are now. -Jindl
Caterane 05-20-04, 06:21 PM	9 PM isn`t good either. If you make pairings 9:05 it`s the same song. And even if the pairings are 3 hours later, then it`s not that clear that all europeans are still awake at midnight. Make it 3 PM (GMT) and don`t set the pairings before 9 PM. Just a thought; perhaps there are better solutions. The sad thing is that we have to find a rule now because we cannot trust you. Sad sad sad.
Jindl 05-20-04, 06:23 PM	Originally posted by Caterane 9 PM isn`t good either. If you make pairings 9:05 it`s the same song. And even if the pairings are 3 hours later, then it`s not that clear that all europeans are still awake at midnight. Make it 3 PM (GMT) and don`t set the pairings before 9 PM. Just a thought; perhaps there are better solutions. The sad thing is that we have to find a rule now because we cannot trust you. Sad sad sad. What time pairings are is irrelevant. Whether the pairings are at 9:05 pm or 12 midnight, the characters still couldn't be edited after 9 pm. What difference would it make when the pairings were, as long as they are after 9 pm and the sheets had to be done before 9 pm? -Jindl
Caterane 05-20-04, 06:32 PM	Jindl, the thing is that NO ONE but you will use the deadline to an advantage. They will have their gladiators set ready when they have the time to do so. You on the other hand will sit there 8:55 editing like a madman, and when your foe checks your sheet the next day he`ll get a bad surprise. And this time it`s all within the rules we all agreed upon. Really great.
Magagumo 05-20-04, 06:34 PM	Well, Jindl, part of people's plans is to swap spells (but more specifically, items) based on what their opponents have. If Aku changes his equipment at 9, and ToK has only seen 8 Aku, and can't change Kelek before the pairings are made, than he is unable to adapt fully to Aku's final form. See, it's easy to say you are both fighting one another 9And the spell swapping point was well-made, though you may have decided not to mem the previous spells at all, and that hurts ToK as well. As MB said, it's a matetr of ethics and honor. If people are going to be adequately prepared, then they should know exactly what they will be facing, and have a chance to adjust their own kit. This could go on forever, but it hasn't really been an issue yet- you guys are both good at planning, and once any pre-buff or equipment surprises have been discovered, you develop countermeasures and move on. We ak that you consider the spirit of the Arena- a fair testing of all builds. Last minute switches tend to be sneaky.
Pitlords 05-20-04, 06:47 PM	drat.
Jindl 05-20-04, 06:48 PM	@Mag - I have already stated twice that Aku hasn't changed his equipment since Tuesday. I also made it clear what spells were changed before pairings, and offered to either change them back or give Tellish a chance to edit Kelek after seeing my new spells. Tellish already had a chance to edit Kelek after seeing my equipment (when he edited Kelek about 4 hours before pairings). I even went so far as to offer to apologize for making a spell change with little time left before pairings. But none of this is against the rules. And I don't think Tellish is justified in accusing me, Limit, and other people of cheating, or in asking for an automatic win or loss. Cat and LL seem to think that I, as a player, should have to give everyone else 24 hours to look at my character sheet and adjust theirs. This certainly isn't fair. That's why I agreed with the idea to set a time that edits may be done. That way, anybody who cared to could edit their sheets at the end. It would be up to the player whether they wanted to wait or not. -Jindl
Hatzinger 05-20-04, 06:52 PM	1. I haven´t read your arguing. It would cost too much energy. 2. Afaik, the reason for the argument is that someone edited his sheet after the deadline. 3. If you want to hear my opinion: If there are any reasons to believe that someone edited his sheet after the deadline and an argument breaks out because of this, then punish everyone who is involved in the hardest possible way. Believe me, it hurts for the moment, but will be for the better in the future.
Jindl 05-20-04, 06:53 PM	Originally posted by Hatzinger 1. I haven´t read your arguing. It would cost too much energy. 2. Afaik, the reason for the argument is that someone edited his sheet after the deadline. 3. If you want to hear my opinion: If there are any reasons to believe that someone edited his sheet after the deadline and an argument breaks out because of this, then punish everyone who is involved in the hardest possible way. Believe me, it hurts for the moment, but will be for the better in the future. @Hatz - I would agree with you. But the sheet wasn't edited after the deadline. It was edited right before the deadline. -Jindl
Hatzinger 05-20-04, 07:00 PM	then why are you arguing? no, stop... i don´t wanna know.
Magagumo 05-20-04, 07:20 PM	@Jindl I acknowledge that your equip didn't change, it's a bit hard to wade through all this text and I missed that. I think it would be good simply that if two players are that concerned with their opponents spells and equipment, that they agree upon a time to both ahve their sheets finalized. This time should be well-prior to the actual pariings, so that no one is pressured for time and so no one is let out of the loop concenrning their opponents final changes. I don't think we need to establish concrete rule shere, I think we should just expect common courtesy from everyone, and show them the same. I think there is no need for outside punishment, as Aku is being reverted back to last known changes- fight on I say, fight on. Now, can we all apologize for any angry words and remain friends/ "co-Mods"? I apologize if I have said anythign to hurt anyone else in this discussion, or if I have misinterpeted anything they have said. I'm out :)
daemones 05-20-04, 07:55 PM	@Mag: Thanks again for running the fight. It was short, but low lvl fighter vs fighter makes LA seem harsh. This wouldn't make a difference in the fight but I thought I'd bring it up just the same. Random things to keep in mind. Full Attacks and 5-ft steps: "The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks" from the Combat section of the SRD. Doesn't matter in this case, but lets you use some interesting tactics, most useful when wading through multiple enemies or moving to flank during a normal campaign. Thanks! daemones
Jindl 05-20-04, 09:30 PM	@All - Tellish has responded via PM that he is willing to fight with Aku reverted back to the original memm'd spells. I have made the change to Aku, restoring Cloudkill, Dispel Magic, and Grease. I will begin working on tactics to send to Limit now. -Jindl
barrel_master 05-21-04, 01:07 AM	Originally posted by Caterane Jindl, the thing is that NO ONE but you will use the deadline to an advantage. They will have their gladiators set ready when they have the time to do so. You on the other hand will sit there 8:55 editing like a madman, and when your foe checks your sheet the next day he`ll get a bad surprise. And this time it`s all within the rules we all agreed upon. Really great. I'm sort of for the 9pm time thing, in the end it's be best solution we have I think... all other alternatives don't seem as good or put jindle in a poor position.
LLMadCow 05-21-04, 01:55 AM	Originally posted by barrel_master I'm sort of for the 9pm time thing, in the end it's be best solution we have I think... all other alternatives don't seem as good or put jindle in a poor position. Good edit there, bud. You were mere seconds away from having me quote what you HAD said, and my response would be: Yes, but that isn't really fair, now, is it? When the person holding all the cards knows what is about to be dealt, no one is surprised when he wins... BTW, if Tellish knew what you said about him, I think he'd kick your :censored:!
Kazzaroth Pan'theon 05-21-04, 08:28 AM	Well, I have a concern. In my char's figth Magagumo did not use the tactics what I sended. But I can accept that he uses non-wastetable resources (like armor and melee weapons), but he made my char use THREE arrows, and he said that he does not waste anything from my char. Also I posted along my tactics that if he wants to make the fight, then my char would had figthed naked and unarmed and charged my foe. Of course this tactic is suicidal, but it can also been seen how long my char last whitout ANY gear vs heavily geared foe. Besides, have anybody used a non-monk char figthing completely naked vs mounted heavily armored target?
Hatzinger 05-21-04, 08:42 AM	Kazz, are you really complaining about three (!) lousy arrows??? And i think your pitlord wrote his reasoning in your tactics secion of the fight. Don´t blame him for trying to put up a real fight instead of just surrendering.
Kazzaroth Pan'theon 05-21-04, 08:56 AM	Yep. Magagumo said that he does not use any of my spendable resources, and arrows are considered spendable resources. Of course some of you migth find this irrelevant, but it is matter of principle. If somebody would had asked me not to use any of their char's spendable resources, I would had not used arrows, potions, wands, scrolls etc. But otherwise I would accept the figth. Even tough I am rigth that I cannot win anymore any figths in the present league (expect I have foe wich does NOT have a horse and haves sensible AC and HP to content whit).
Magagumo 05-21-04, 10:26 AM	Kazz- your character has a COnstitution of 10 and has lost 2 HD to race. You picked Drow, but you do not utilize their innate Spell-like abilities. I'm sorry dude, but your tactics are a huge part of this. If you'd like, I'd be happy to discuss tactics for an upcoming fight over PM , if that would help you out. The key is to not get discouraged, and to think about your strengths and weaknesses- perhaps putting Kazeira on the backburner for a bit would be good? I think trying a base ECL character might give you an easier time. And to note, Irwin's hp and AC are far from unreasonable. Personally, I would have taken time to hide (since your Dex of 18 plus ranger levels gives you a fair amount of stealth), cast darkness on yoruself, then Rapid Shotted his horse with your composite longbow (definetely not a place to cut costs, the lower range increment hurt you badly). With a +5 to each arrow vs. the horse's AC of 14 or so, you could have begun to wound the animal. It's not the end all be all of tactics, but its a base to build from. If the horse worries you, than drink a Potion of HIde from Animas (50 gp), this helps you evade scent and horse's sight until you could manuever into good position. And spendable resources generally mean valuable spendable resources. 1 sp worth of arrows is not worth arguing over, Kazz.
barrel_master 05-21-04, 11:49 AM	Originally posted by LLMadCow Good edit there, bud. You were mere seconds away from having me quote what you HAD said, and my response would be: Yes, but that isn't really fair, now, is it? When the person holding all the cards knows what is about to be dealt, no one is surprised when he wins... BTW, if Tellish knew what you said about him, I think he'd kick your :censored:! ? Sorry, I don't recall saying anything about tellish in my post, I don't think it involved him at all. If you're refering to jindle 'dealing cards' that's understandable, before he could set the time of the pairing and we would not know about it, with a fixed time it allows more openess and is, at least, better then what we have now.
Kazzaroth Pan'theon 05-21-04, 12:08 PM	Have you checked my char's premier figths Magagumo? I had used my innate powers before and they are quite useless so far (especially in two few occasion when pitlord had forgotten use my spell resistance ability). The 2 race HD and Con 10 hurt yes, but everbody have chance to have more feats, more skills points and I realized that the tactic what I expected to use alot is disqualified at moment. So, even that I would had Con 16, it would had only added 9 hp and that does not help alot. Yes, I should put more money for a LONGbow, I take it account but that does not help alot when foe haves a horse wich cannot be killed in 1 or two turns and it does not stop him to charge me in close range while I am using a bow. Also I do not plan to put my char for break because it does not improve anything, everbody in league 5 shall and always will have a horse till then. Also even a weak mage is dangerous around this league. You can find the arrow argue stupid, but like I said, it is matter of PRINCIPLE. You said that you do not use resources and arrows are resources. You did not said valuable resources. But let's forget the whole matter. But in any sake I have strengths, but so far they have been effortless in arena and I can start benefit from them ONLY when I get more levels. What my stealth would had helped against foe wich had spended great amount on spot and listen? Every gladiator spends many off their skills points those two.
SnarkHunter 05-21-04, 11:38 PM	Hey Kaigan, if you definitly want to win 2nd (and 3rd for that matter, most of the time) I suggest a 7th lvl scroll of Magic missile. Move 30ft forward cast and poof! no more enemy! Upgrade to 9th if you need that extra d4+1.
Kaigan 05-21-04, 11:54 PM	@Snarkhunter: That seems like a good idea, thanks. @Freemoody: Nice fight. Couple of light mistakes. 1) the save DC for fireball should have been 16, not 14. 10 + spell level(3) + int. Modifier(3) = 16. 2) He needed a handle animal check to get his horse to attack, DC 10. But since the horse would have been injured due to fireball, then the DC is now 12. Apart from that nothing major. Good fight though. Thanks for modding.
Boldrift-Mattock 05-21-04, 11:54 PM	@Kaigain I have personally not owned a horse ever. I think being sneaky and hiding from the enemy is the best way to go. Try getting some Elixers of sneaking and hiding to help with those pesky spot and listen folks. I think your CON is hurting you alot but there are ways of fixing that to. I enjoy your charaters little storys and the way he is dedecated to practice. Dont give up on him man he is a cool asset to this COCO. Boldrift Mattock
SnarkHunter 05-22-04, 12:55 AM	No the save was correct. Saves for items are not determined by the casters ability mods. Example-Fireball is a 3rd level spell. The minimum int/cha that could cast that is 13. Thus the scroll is assumed to be scribed at that ability and has a DC of 10+3(3rd level spell)+1(mod for 13 int/cha)=14 Example 2-Color spray-1st level spell. DC: 10+1+0(mod for int/cha of 11)=11. This is a fairly common complaint. I think your right about the horse though.
freemoody 05-22-04, 05:15 AM	@ Kaigan: The horse was defending it's master. Heavy Warhorses know the Defend trick.
Battousai2005 05-22-04, 12:24 PM	Originally posted by Kazzaroth Pan'theon Have you checked my char's premier figths Magagumo? I had used my innate powers before and they are quite useless so far (especially in two few occasion when pitlord had forgotten use my spell resistance ability). The 2 race HD and Con 10 hurt yes, but everbody have chance to have more feats, more skills points and I realized that the tactic what I expected to use alot is disqualified at moment. So, even that I would had Con 16, it would had only added 9 hp and that does not help alot. Yes, I should put more money for a LONGbow, I take it account but that does not help alot when foe haves a horse wich cannot be killed in 1 or two turns and it does not stop him to charge me in close range while I am using a bow. Also I do not plan to put my char for break because it does not improve anything, everbody in league 5 shall and always will have a horse till then. Also even a weak mage is dangerous around this league. You can find the arrow argue stupid, but like I said, it is matter of PRINCIPLE. You said that you do not use resources and arrows are resources. You did not said valuable resources. But let's forget the whole matter. But in any sake I have strengths, but so far they have been effortless in arena and I can start benefit from them ONLY when I get more levels. What my stealth would had helped against foe wich had spended great amount on spot and listen? Every gladiator spends many off their skills points those two. Want an example of how to use the drow racial abilities? If Arti posts my fight soon, check out Akordia's fight. The only ability I am not using in that fight is Dancing lights, though it actually might have helped. Your early fights were not a fair test of these abilities as you did not use them properly. You expected darkness to hide you, for example. Oh, and 2 HD +9 hp does make a difference. A big one. Solution to horse problem: buy a horse! Arrows. 3. comes to a total of 15% of a gp. While it is true that it is a fraction of a spending, it is not that much. Had he used something like a potion, that would make more sense. Spend the 3 sp or so for 3 new arrows. You have to take into accout that your spending does not make a whole lot of sense. Why pay for a singet ring, for example. Anyway, just some thoughts.
Kazzaroth Pan'theon 05-22-04, 05:32 PM	*double post*
Kazzaroth Pan'theon 05-22-04, 05:32 PM	Well, the darkness hiding thing comed from the fact that I used that I asumed that darkness had not changed form 3.0 edition :rolleyes: . Also I do not knowed that if I faerie fire my target, I can figth whitout penalties in darkness (is this true?). What comes to horse buy, I do not plan buy a horse because in fluff wise drows do nto know how to ride a horse because there are none in Underdark (and my drow is native Underdarker). The expection would be lizard mount, but there are no rules for them in core books (at least my notice). My shoppings would seem not fitting to most gladiators, but I shop things what I tought my char WOULD own (little realism in here :rolleyes: ). I asume that gladiators get sepparate fee how to pay the bills for basic things and such (so I do not add inn, food expenses, expect ale and wines and other services).
kattattack22 05-22-04, 05:49 PM	Originally posted by Kazzaroth Pan'theon Well, the darkness hiding thing comed from the fact that I used that I asumed that darkness had not changed form 3.0 edition :rolleyes: . Also I do not knowed that if I faerie fire my target, I can figth whitout penalties in darkness (is this true?). Yes and No, faerie fire will let you fight a targeted opponent without penalty in dakness, but it will not let you fight without penalities in magical darkness. from 3.5 SRD entry on Darkness Normal lights (torches, candles, lanterns, and so forth) are incapable of brightening the area, as are light spells of lower level. from 3.5 SRD entry on Faerie Fire Faerie Fire Evocation [Light] Level: Drd 1 . . . . Outlined creatures do not benefit from the concealment normally provided by darkness (though a 2nd-level or higher magical darkness effect functions normally), I had to look these up for the drow vs. drow fight I will be running soon. Originally posted by Kazzaroth Pan'theon What comes to horse buy, I do not plan buy a horse because in fluff wise drows do nto know how to ride a horse because there are none in Underdark (and my drow is native Underdarker). The expection would be lizard mount, but there are no rules for them in core books (at least my notice). Well, if you have handle animal you could do a monster fight and train something. Iron the Panza rode a megaraptor for a little while. If nothing else, come up with some lizard creature name and have it considered like a warhorse. Jindl does the same for Rhoar as a Nethanderthal approx. by an Orc. Not exactly the same thing, but D&D is a game of imagination so why not strecth it a little?
Kazzaroth Pan'theon 05-22-04, 06:13 PM	Can you choose a monster figth? I asumed that everbody msut figth against other gladiators?
kattattack22 05-22-04, 07:37 PM	You can request a monster fight instead of gladiator fight. From what I understand a pitlord must agree to it and they get a little extra in the way of credits if they do so. Been a long time since it was discussed and since my characters are anti-allies I forget the exact details.
Jindl 05-22-04, 08:14 PM	Monster fights exist in order for you to gain an ally via handle animal or animate dead. So, if you have the capability to gain an ally through either of these methods, you may request a monster fight against the creature you wish to train or animate. Participating in a monster fight counts as if you had 2 active PC's. Pitlords treat a monster fight the same as a normal PC vs PC fight. -Jindl
Caterane 05-23-04, 02:37 AM	@Kazza: Possible allies (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2278970#post2278970)
Kazzaroth Pan'theon 05-23-04, 10:41 AM	Well, whit my lousy hande animal (+3) I probaly would not tame even a dog (at least I would have egual succes like Jack Sparrow had in prison :rolleyes: ). I probaly must raise that skill little before I could consider any monster figth to get tamed pet.
TaggIIV 05-23-04, 11:15 AM	Not sure if I'm overlooking some kind of rule regarding confirming critical hits, but at the moment Olinad rolled a critical, Elg'cahl's AC was 21, not 16 (16 + 1 dodge + 4 mage armor potion) Other than that (if that is a that and im not overlooking something), it looked good and thank you for pointing out the character sheet modifications. On a different note, that post with all the allies mentioned Handle Animal possibilities - is there an alternate list for Animate Dead? And does using Animate Dead require any Handle Animal, and could it be used off of a scroll/other item rather than casted off your person, or could someone else be paid to cast it
kattattack22 05-23-04, 11:26 AM	Not sure if I'm overlooking some kind of rule regarding confirming critical hits, but at the moment Olinad rolled a critical, Elg'cahl's AC was 21, not 16 (16 + 1 dodge + 4 mage armor potion) It actually was 16 because you said you wanted to chase Olinad if he fired his bow at you and I had Elg'cahl move as quickly as possible. He couldn't run past the rock since you can't move diagonally around a corner so Elg'chal double moved out. Once you were in the clear I had Elg'cahl run towards Olinad and without the run feat you lose your dex bonus and subsequently your dodge bonus giving you 10+ 2 wis + 4 mage armor = 16. It might even have been less because I didn't look up wheather or not monk's lose wis bonus to AC when they lose their dex bonus (which I think it is, but didn't really matter when he just hit your AC w/o dex and dodge). I hope that clarifies things. EDIT: After looking it up, I did it right in keeping the wisdom modifier to AC.
freemoody 05-23-04, 12:07 PM	I have a question about the Chill Metal damage in rounds 7 through 14. A successful Chill Metal does 8d4 damage. My Chill Metal's only delt 12 d4 over 7 rounds. I cast three, so that would be 24 d4, average of 48 damage. Chill Metal Damage: Round Metal Temperature Damage 1 Cold None 2 Icy 1d4 points 3-5 Freezing 2d4 points 6 Icy 1d4 points 7 Cold None
Beldin 05-23-04, 12:10 PM	you are right, i read the spell wrong. i will edit the fight
Beldin 05-23-04, 12:30 PM	The fight is edited, much shorter now...
Jindl 05-23-04, 12:59 PM	@Beldin - I assume Boldrift failed his Will saves when the chill metal effects began? BM's Will = +1 Lillith's memm'd chill touch = DC 16 Lillith's scroll of chill touch = DC 13 Note: The scroll's DC is lower, as is the nature of such items. Also, a potion: protection from fire costs 750 gp not 300 gp. Perhaps Boldrift wanted to buy a potion: resist fire, which does cost 300 gp... -Jindl
Boldrift-Mattock 05-23-04, 01:26 PM	@beldin: I dont see where i have made a save for either of the chills...:(
Beldin 05-23-04, 01:30 PM	i thought just magical armor would get a saving throw. ... i begin to hate that spell
Boldrift-Mattock 05-23-04, 01:40 PM	A resist fire is what I wanted. Do I change the name or go ahead and pay the differance of the protection and the resist?
Boldrift-Mattock 05-23-04, 01:53 PM	I am destin to loose against her I guess, even with the will save.
Beldin 05-23-04, 01:54 PM	fight is edited again, sorry boldrift, nothing changed ... resist fire it is then...edited again
Mercy 05-24-04, 01:26 AM	@Captain Mutilate - Don't worry about re-running the fight between Dart and Tair, but here are the errors. 1) Swift should have started in a square such that he had a straight-line run to the other side of the arena. 2) Moving into a square to threaten Tair would not have provoked AoO from Tari. Tair is flat-footed until his first action, he is not armed, and he only has reach of 5-ft. 3) Fast mount is a free action and Dart should have been able to mount his horse and ride to the other side and take a swing at Tair.
Beldin 05-24-04, 03:02 AM	@mutilate: a natural roll of 1 is not an automatic failure
Jindl 05-24-04, 08:11 AM	Originally posted by Beldin @mutilate: a natural roll of 1 is not an automatic failure @Beldin - I assume you are referring to the Will save vs Color Spray or the Fort Save vs the CDG. In both cases a natural 1 is an automatic failure. Saving throws are subject to automatic failure and success (natural 1 and natural 20, respectively.) -Jindl
Myrridin 05-24-04, 09:52 AM	Originally posted by Mercy @Captain Mutilate - Don't worry about re-running the fight between Dart and Tair, but here are the errors. 3) Fast mount is a free action and Dart should have been able to mount his horse and ride to the other side and take a swing at Tair. I thought that if you Fast Mounted, then had the mount run all the way to the other side of the arena, that you couldn't attack that round too?
Mercy 05-24-04, 10:19 AM	Originally posted by Myrridin I thought that if you Fast Mounted, then had the mount run all the way to the other side of the arena, that you couldn't attack that round too? According to the Rules of the Coliseum post in the Pitlords section, under Mounted Combat. If you follow the link "Mounted Combat" (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2098689#post2098680) at the very end of the post it states: You may make a single melee attack after your mount has moved more than 5', even it's maximum distance in any given round without penalty, up to and including Running. Since fast mount is a free action (if successful) a person can fast mount and attack at the end of the run.
Jindl 05-24-04, 11:05 AM	Mercy is correct. Strictly by the rules, you can make a single melee attack. This is not a standard action, so no spellcasting. One note: When attempting to fast mount, armor check penalties do apply. So it's not as easy as it sounds. -Jindl
Captain Mutilate 05-24-04, 12:02 PM	Well even with the armor check, he still fast mounted. You just need to have a good bonus in ride checks... And Mercy: Sorry about that. Since you don't want the fight reran, then I guess I won't. I did reference the post, though. And I don't quite get the thing about the person losing initiative being flat footed. They are aware of their combatant, seeing as they are in an arena, and if you see someone riding a horse for 6 seconds and you have a dagger available, I'm rather sure that you would take a swipe at them before casting your spell. Just trying to figure this out because it truly doesn't make sense to me.
Jindl 05-24-04, 12:10 PM	@Captain Mutilate - You're always flat-footed until you act on your first turn of initiative. It is irrelevant whether you were aware of your opponent or not. That's standard DnD rules. If one gladiator was unaware of the other, then there would be a surprise round. Check out the DMG, the Running the Game chapter (where it talks about encounter distances and surprise rounds). They explain it pretty well there. :D -Jindl
Beldin 05-24-04, 12:29 PM	can't a gladiator start mounted and get this far? if not, why?
Myrridin 05-24-04, 01:15 PM	If you start mounted you can't charge as there are pillars in the way. The way to get close to your opponent on the first turn is the Quick Mount, and then have the horse run.
daemones 05-24-04, 01:16 PM	EDIT: I was a little slow.
Magagumo 05-24-04, 01:43 PM	Re: Darkness & Faerie Fire- Sorry for the misquote, thank you for clearing that up kat :) Re: Horses and Position- If you take a Light Warhorse, give them horseshoes of Speed, and Spur them, then reach weapon (or 10' reach) will allow you to attack your opponent in melee first turn :) Of course, a pegasus can do that as well ;)
Caterane 05-24-04, 02:28 PM	@Ethendril: Round 3, you forgot to substract the distance by Clio`s spot check Unfortunately there are none mentioned but I assume she`s not farther away than 150ft at which point her spot of 21 (not 31) would fail. Else it looks good.
Ethendril 05-24-04, 02:52 PM	Originally posted by Caterane @Ethendril: Round 3, you forgot to substract the distance by Clio`s spot check Unfortunately there are none mentioned but I assume she`s not farther away than 150ft at which point her spot of 21 (not 31) would fail. Else it looks good. Aye, that I did...
Tellish_of_Ket 05-24-04, 03:36 PM	Originally posted by Myrridin If you start mounted you can't charge as there are pillars in the way. The way to get close to your opponent on the first turn is the Quick Mount, and then have the horse run. Hmm...you can start mounted. LOL Round 4: Pale-Ringer: had he a head he would slap it at once for forgetting such a CLEARLY WRITTEN fact so he dropped the otiluke`s (standard action) and sensed Zorander`s life force, and Umbra`s negative life force. Hmmm.. please read the description of magic jar cat and maybe replace pale-ringer with cat-nappster. ray - LOL mike- LOL ray - LOL -ToK
Caterane 05-24-04, 03:40 PM	Mike & Ray, throw away the 3.0 handbook and buy the new one. PHB (3.5!) p250, third column, top: You do need a line of effect from the jar to the creatures.
Jindl 05-24-04, 03:45 PM	@Mag - I like the way you portrayed Rhoar as the gentle giant. But I should point out that his armor spikes actually do 1d8+10 when he is raging with bull's strength. I think you had them doing 2 pts too much on each successful grapple. Since they dealt damage 3 times, I think Ony should have had 6 more hps (putting him at 5 hps instead of -1) after Rhoar's action in the last round. Would you take a look at this and maybe continue the fight. I'd much rather it finish nice and clean without errors. Thanks! :D -Jindl
Magagumo 05-24-04, 03:46 PM	Fight looked good, Cat (I knew losing Initiative was going to kill me :-P), but I wanted to note that a full-round action does not take place next round, it simply takes all the actions for the round. A 1 Round action (like the Summon Spells) occur on the following round. Here's my big question- When Zorander emerged from the acid fog (and I presumed he would have been moving north or South toward the columns for eventual cover), did he see Pale-Rider slumped over? If he did, then his remaining move action would have been to move away from the body (From his listed position, Zorander could have been at -23, while Pale was at 8). The distance between the two would have been greater than 110', so Pale could not have possessed Zorander. At the same time, Umbra should have fled from Pale when he slumped over, so he wouldn't have been CDGing him. Unless I am sorely mistaken here, Zorander is far from Pale-Rider, as is Umbra... And thus the boy is alive and trying to fill the wizard's body wih arrows. Mind responding about this Cat? Edit: Hmm, worked off the wrong listing for damage, I'll get right on it. Edit2: Fight's been fixed, a couple surprises in the last rounds made things interesting :D
Jindl 05-24-04, 03:50 PM	@Mag - I know this guy, right outside of town, that sell's protection from evil potions... 50 gp each. They work real good whether you're facing summons or magic jars. Just tell him that Jindl sent you! @Cat - Make sure you note that Zorander used a scroll: resist energy in the fight (even though he failed his concentration check). Oh yeah, potions don't require concentration checks. And that guy, he sells potions: resist acid too! -Jindl
Tellish_of_Ket 05-24-04, 04:08 PM	Originally posted by Caterane Mike & Ray, throw away the 3.0 handbook and buy the new one. PHB (3.5!) p250, third column, top: You do need a line of effect from the jar to the creatures. No big surprise, another mis-quote by the Cat-meister. lol "....you do NOT need line of SIGHT or EFFECT to it." Maybe you should throw away your german-translated texts and buy a real-english book. LOL Your selective reading makes me a bit nervous at times, i'll give ya that. Always makes for interesting reads on your fights to see which part of descriptions you take and skip the rest. At least now we know where MB's bong disappeared to. LOL LOL j/k ray- LOL mike - LOL ALL - LOL -ToK
Magagumo 05-24-04, 04:09 PM	I seem to recall having a good reason for not drinking the Prot potion, Jindl (you'll see I even have some :)). As I stated above, my plan on getting away from the body could still work just perfectly ( believe I feared Dispe MAgics, come to think of it). s I said, I have a 40' move left, so I can still get away from Pale Rider. He wouldn't be able to possess Umbra and I if we are far enough away, so he would need to dismiss Magic Jar, get back on his steed, and begn attacking us again. Zorander might get Acid Fogged (as per Spike's tactics,) but he has hp, and Umbra can kill the man rather quickly without his Mage Armor. That's why I think this isn't over. Edit: Hmm, Tellsih is right about the loe... I suppose Pale would have possessed Zorander while he was still in the fog? Having once considered similar tactics with Bruno, I can't bash his methods. I think Pale has this one, based on my fear of Evard's ;) (One day I will win intiiative... *sigh*)
Jindl 05-24-04, 04:16 PM	Umbra is immune to magic jar, as are all incorporeal undead (I think?). Plus, he can't cast spells while in the jar, so your potion is safe as long as you drink it immediately upon him going unconscious (in the jar). Also, Pale has no idea what potion you drank, until he witnesses it's effect (like if it repels him once or something). So, for all he knows you may have drank a potion: Cat's grace or something... I still think the potion: protection from <alingment> to be perhaps the best 1st level potion, with potion: enlarge person being a close second (depending on your build). -Jindl
Captain Mutilate 05-24-04, 04:32 PM	Originally posted by Jindl @Captain Mutilate - You're always flat-footed until you act on your first turn of initiative. It is irrelevant whether you were aware of your opponent or not. That's standard DnD rules. If one gladiator was unaware of the other, then there would be a surprise round. Check out the DMG, the Running the Game chapter (where it talks about encounter distances and surprise rounds). They explain it pretty well there. :D -Jindl Aha, yes. Sorry, my DnD group usually rearranges the rules a bit and I guess I forgot. Kay then.
Caterane 05-24-04, 04:43 PM	Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket No big surprise, another mis-quote by the Cat-meister. lol "....you do NOT need line of SIGHT or EFFECT to it." Maybe you should throw away your german-translated texts and buy a real-english book. LOL Your selective reading makes me a bit nervous at times, i'll give ya that. Always makes for interesting reads on your fights to see which part of descriptions you take and skip the rest. At least now we know where MB's bong disappeared to. LOL LOL j/k ray- LOL mike - LOL ALL - LOL -ToK One of us reads out of a different book, Harry Potter or something... Let`s take the SRD instead: To cast the spell, the magic jar must be within spell range and you must know where it is, though you do not need line of sight or line of effect to it . When you transfer your soul upon casting, your body is, as near as anyone can tell, dead. Your selective quote refers to the casting of the spell; the transfer from Pale-Rider´s soul towards the magic jar. While in the magic jar, you can sense and attack any life force within 10 feet per caster level (and on the same plane of existence). You do need line of effect from the jar to the creatures. You cannot determine the exact creature types or positions of these creatures. Aha! Any additional questions? Ask Cat. Ok, group hug *pad pad pad*
Tellish_of_Ket 05-24-04, 04:47 PM	Your selective quote refers to the casting of the spell; the transfer from Pale-Rider´s soul towards the magic jar. :( oh well...first time for everything. LOL LOL I bow to your superior reading skills my friend. lol *slaps mike on the head There, now i feel better. -ToK
Jindl 05-24-04, 04:48 PM	Originally posted by Caterane Aha! Any additional questions? Ask Cat. Ok, group hug *pad pad pad* Um, Cat: 1 ToK: 0 MS: 0 :D
Magagumo 05-24-04, 04:58 PM	*Bah!* I m sheep! :-P Bah, sleep deprivation makes me no read well. So this brings us back to my original point, would have it been possible for Zorander to have moved away from Pale-Rider (as per tctics) rather than drinking a CMW potion (which should not have happenned till he was down to 30 hp)?
Caterane 05-24-04, 05:48 PM	@Mag: Your tactics are very clear here If Zorander manages to escape [from the acid fog], he will hide ASAP, heal with a CMW potion, drink Fly Potion, and begin an aerial assault vs. Pale-Rider as detailed in Step 4A (cast Entangle on Pale-Rider, after the first round I get airborne, then climb to 60' and begin shooting as necessary. Move closer with 5' steps if there's a distance penalty (over 205') You don`t have spellcraft so you cannot know about what he`s doing there. For you he´s dead, or lying on the ground while being attacked by your shadow. That`s the most logical reaction.
SnarkHunter 05-24-04, 09:11 PM	@Tellish, RE: Donkey...that fight seemed...quick...and weird from my perspective. In the first round after I charged, I was 20ft away not 5. So The bat couldn't full attack me but I'd get multiple AoO's when it went after me, (5ft reach you know). After that, why no Haste on subsequent attacks, you definitly activated it 1st round (or so I thought). After that, why no buffs? Why no recasting of Fly? Why did I just sit and wait for him to drop a ton of Flamestrikes on me? <=is troubled.
Magagumo 05-24-04, 10:30 PM	@ Cat hmm, I need to review what I sent you, becuse I stated that if he fell over, my shdow and I were going to keep away from him. I know I don't have SPellcraft, but I am aware that if he slumps over, and neither one of us attacked him, then its a very bad thing. Yes this is metagaming, but we have to do that to survive in these boards. (Besides, Pale-Rider is likely to gloat over his newer tricks, how he plans on humiliating "ze puny bow-man" with his possessing spells.) Thusly, when he fell over before Umbra could reach him, Umbra had been instructed to flee. And I was to keep away from him as well, until I had shot him a specified number of arrows (this is in my tactics you know). Also, my notes for running away from his body were clearly stated under (Important Notes), designed to be emergency tactics which override any others I state prior. You, yourself, use this system... in fact, I borrowed it from you. Given this explanation, do you understand why I believe Zorander and Umbra should be distancing themselves (I picked 150' feet in my tactics to avoid total metagaming I believe), and Zorander should begin a long-range barrage (as the archer with the Distance longbow is so easily capable of doing?) Edit: One question, MB, was Peter's DR from Righteous Might taken into account with Jagath's attacks? Edit2: This was my exact remark If Pale-Rider ever slumps over in saddle or ground (and Umbra didn't just touch him, or Zorander didn't shoot him), Umbra is to immediately get over 120' from the body (run action) and Zorander will also maintain the same healthy distance (climb high to the top of the arena if flying). From then on, Umbra is not to get close to Pale-Rider until Zorander confirms he is dead (hit with at least 10 arrows (90 dmg min), or judges call it a death) or he begins moving again. Pale-Rider can't cast spells while in Magic Jar (must be Stilled & Silent), but he can easily take over my shadow's body, thus necessitating the evasion tactics. If Pale-Rider starts the fight slumped over, Umbra will hide in a column until called, and Zorander will non-defensively Rapid Shot the body until the boy resumes life or is officially dead. I was trying not to drink Protection from X, as I shouldnt necessarily know that such a spell could save me from Magic Jar. I believe that was he reasoning behind all of this.
MotherBast 05-24-04, 11:40 PM	Bah, no it wasen't. For some reason I thought it was DR/magic. It /evil...... So, He has 20 more HP or so at the end of the fight, and still wins.
Tellish_of_Ket 05-25-04, 01:02 AM	Originally posted by SnarkHunter @Tellish, RE: Donkey...that fight seemed...quick...and weird from my perspective. In the first round after I charged, I was 20ft away not 5. So The bat couldn't full attack me but I'd get multiple AoO's when it went after me, (5ft reach you know). After that, why no Haste on subsequent attacks, you definitly activated it 1st round (or so I thought). After that, why no buffs? Why no recasting of Fly? Why did I just sit and wait for him to drop a ton of Flamestrikes on me? <=is troubled. Let me assure you i see i erred, and let me elate your fears as i will begin anew. :) Very distracted this weekend. @Limit: You wrote: Round 2 ToK you didn't say what to do if he went invisible, but I'm guessing you'd see invisible My tactics for round 2. If he didn’t drink delay poison potion, full attack him again with three more arrows (all large scorpion arrows). reason:" +20 listen " i can easily pin-point him and i know if he casts a spell, i die. Horrible saves vs powerful caster equals instant death. that's all. It's the reason i didn't spend hours upon hours of tactics. If he wins init i die. My only chance was to paralyze him asap. -ToK
Alterlat 05-25-04, 03:35 AM	@Arstimis In the Akordia-Sarah fight, what happened in rounds 18-19? It says that Akordia reloaded twice without firing.
Hatzinger 05-25-04, 04:31 AM	@Limit: Thanks for running the fight. I didn´t want to fight him unbuffed, so i have to make my tactics clearer the next time. Damn had he good rolls. I shall give offerings to the goddess of luck before the next fight. Oh, and grats, Beldin. That was the only good tactic one could think of. Nice to see that it works from time to time. *Oetzi is nervously shifting in his grave*
Caterane 05-25-04, 09:39 AM	@Mag: Well, this would result in a complete rerun. Too late I read the tactics and when I sent Marketshare a mail that half of his tactic won`t work it was already too late to get a response in time, and he surely`d have altered his tactics. I cannot just let you run away but have to change so many things that it will start from the beginning on. If you still insist on a rerun, I`ll see what I can do...
Tellish_of_Ket 05-25-04, 09:41 AM	Originally posted by SnarkHunter @Tellish, RE: Donkey... <=is troubled. It's being edited. I have 6 rounds completed, will finish up the rest later this evening. You can re-read the fight and check out the progression. Dusty...well, bit the dust as expected this time. -ToK
Arstimis 05-25-04, 09:46 AM	Originally posted by Alterlat @Arstimis In the Akordia-Sarah fight, what happened in rounds 18-19? It says that Akordia reloaded twice without firing. Ya, sorry about that, it was getting late in the night, and that fight was very tedious and annoying. akordia did shoot and miss, i forgot to right it down. The online roller has all the right rolls in the right order..so..ya
Jindl 05-25-04, 09:58 AM	Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket reason:" +20 listen " i can easily pin-point him and i know if he casts a spell, i die. Horrible saves vs powerful caster equals instant death. that's all. It's the reason i didn't spend hours upon hours of tactics. If he wins init i die. My only chance was to paralyze him asap. -ToK Kelek's listen = +20 Aku's move silently = +4 Distance between them = >120 ft (a -12 penalty to listen) So, Kelek has effectively a +8 listen due to the distance penalty and he would have to beat Aku's effective move silently of +4 by 20 in order to pinpoint. Kelek should only succeed on this about 20% of the time (hardly what I would call easily pinpointing...) Even if he did pinpoint, then he would have a 50% miss chance due to the invisibility. Now, if Kelek wanted to ready to shoot when he heard spellcasting, then it would be an effective listen check of +8 due to distance vs a DC 0 for spellcasting, which he would have to beat by 20 in order to pinpoint. Kelek should succed at this about 40% of the time. Then, if he did pinpoint, he would have a 50% miss chance for invisibility. And if he hit, the arrow could not do enough damage to disrupt the spell, and the poison could not deal enough Str damage to incapacitate. While I agree that Limit probably should have tried to pinpoint and full attack as your tactics suggested (and perhaps saved you the resources of the scroll: see invisibility), I do disagree with the "easily pinpoint" aspect of your argument. -Jindl
Magagumo 05-25-04, 10:44 AM	Hmm, personally, I think this fight has enough errors for both sides to be considered null... if you, Cat, and you, Market, wouldn't be horribly offended, do you think we could just have Zorander and Pale-Rider re-fight for this week? The results of this fight would be nulled, and we would fight again with no resources used. We eliminate any time issues by it being Tuesday, and if you both agreed, perhaps we could send in revised tactics (so Market isn't left with half-useless tactics)? What do you guys say to this?
MotherBast 05-25-04, 10:46 AM	Tellish: How does Donkey know I melded with the pillar? I did not see any listen checks to see if he heard me cast the spell, nor and spellcraft to recognize it. Plus, even if he saw me, I could have just gone invis or something. He wouldn't know without a spellcraft check. You haven't ran the part where I leave the pillar yet, but I was just wondering if your planning on re-randomizing the direction I leave the pillar from? I have a 3 in 4 chance of leaving on a side that gives me cover and not allowing him to AoO me.
Caterane 05-25-04, 10:48 AM	Originally posted by Magagumo Hmm, personally, I think this fight has enough errors for both sides to be considered null... if you, Cat, and you, Market, wouldn't be horribly offended, do you think we could just have Zorander and Pale-Rider re-fight for this week? The results of this fight would be nulled, and we would fight again with no resources used. We eliminate any time issues by it being Tuesday, and if you both agreed, perhaps we could send in revised tactics (so Market isn't left with half-useless tactics)? What do you guys say to this? If Mike agrees, I`ll do it. If he doesn`t agree you have to live with the loss. I know I haven`t used an important part of your tactic but it was also my fault to inform Mike so late so it would be unfair to change your tactics and his not.
Magagumo 05-25-04, 10:51 AM	Aye, I appreciate your consideration, Cat, and will happily accept whatever Mike decides. @MB I think it was irrelevant, b/c Donkey infllicted a 33 dmg AoO on Dusty just prior to the bat's attack. So the bat was at 2 hp vs. Donkey's massive damage...
MotherBast 05-25-04, 02:15 PM	Yeah, I just noticed that myself. I edited my above post to remove that question.
barrel_master 05-25-04, 02:43 PM	Just a note, summoned creatures with ranged attacks can target people with protection from (whatever).
MotherBast 05-25-04, 03:25 PM	Ah, my bad. I just got so used to Pro x potions preventing attacks.
Limit 05-25-04, 07:06 PM	Just for my future reference in other fights, when would the pinpointing have taken place? When Aku moved in round one?
SnarkHunter 05-25-04, 10:54 PM	@Tellish thanks a lot man, I haven't been here much because I've been getting a lot of hours at my new old job (And that's cuz beloved co-workers are calling in the day of theirs and my shifts! Wee overtime!). Any way, early rounds look good, though...again there was just the one AoO against Dusty-you know I have Combat Reflexes right ;) @MB: I would say since your tactics didn't say to hide or become invisible before you melded your action was observed without needin a role. I guess he could do a DC 0 for it. Even failing that I think I'd still hear the sound of spell casting in your pillar...
Tellish_of_Ket 05-26-04, 12:55 AM	Originally posted by MotherBast Tellish: How does Donkey know I melded with the pillar? I did not see any listen checks to see if he heard me cast the spell, nor and spellcraft to recognize it. Plus, even if he saw me, I could have just gone invis or something. He wouldn't know without a spellcraft check. You haven't ran the part where I leave the pillar yet, but I was just wondering if your planning on re-randomizing the direction I leave the pillar from? I have a 3 in 4 chance of leaving on a side that gives me cover and not allowing him to AoO me. I don’t believe this to be the case. You MELD into the stone. I hardly call that requiring a spellcraft check. You start to walk into the pillar and form with it. I was planning (and did) have you exit the way you came in. Originally posted by Jindl Kelek's listen = +20 Aku's move silently = +4 Distance between them = >120 ft (a -12 penalty to listen) -Jindl The point is you weren't moving silent at the time and made no mention of moving silently in your tactics. Plus you mentioned about using the vrocks spores? It's a special attack and not gained through polymorph. I'm not bitter at the loss, i would have been shocked if i had survived even one spell from Aku. Without taking many hours out of my time to lay out extremely detailed tactics to have them derailed because of something gone awry would have been a complete waste. I know how people run stealth and thus my timidness when using it. It gets botched more often then not. Aku is probably one of the best casters in the game...i'm not ashamed at the loss. Originally posted by SnarkHunter @Tellish thanks a lot man, I haven't been here much because I've been getting a lot of hours at my new old job (And that's cuz beloved co-workers are calling in the day of theirs and my shifts! Wee overtime!). Any way, early rounds look good, though...again there was just the one AoO against Dusty-you know I have Combat Reflexes right ;) Actually, you still only get one AoO on Dusty. You only get one AoO per condition. Moving through your threatened area is one condition. If Dusty did something else to provoke, thereby a new condition arose you would obviously get another AoO, that did not happen. @Mag/Cat: I’ll call mike from work tomorrow to let him know your plight. Otherwise you wouldn’t hear from him. He’s catering this week. -ToK
SnarkHunter 05-26-04, 12:59 AM	@Tellish...too tired to argue. Thanks a ton for the rerun. Need to get up in 6 hours and go to work again!
MotherBast 05-26-04, 07:19 AM	Now I have a problem. The round I dispel him, he falls 30 feet, draws a scroll, and casts it. Then he sits and casts Pro fire. I had another oppertunity to put even more distance between us. How in the world did he reach me in a single move? 90 feet of movement with haste, + 20 foot reach means he could just barely do it even if he was the same hight as me, even if I had only moved away once. Even a 10 foot elevation difference makes it impossible. That would chage the outcome of this fight bunches, as I would not have taken that second hit, and would have droped my final flamestrike instead of healing on the last round.
Magagumo 05-26-04, 10:52 AM	Just for future Refr. Tellish, leaving a threatened square is one condition. Just as Dusty was struck when leaving the 20' square of Donkey's reach, he would incur another AoO from leaving the 15' threatened square of Donkey's reach. Each square is counted indiviuallly, but most big things don't have high dex or Combat reflexes, so one doesn't get completely mauled when approaching, say, a titan. Mounted Cmbat and Ride-by Attack is the most common solution :) But if a psychic warrior Titan used Expansion to grow to colossal... :-P *shudder*
Jindl 05-26-04, 11:19 AM	Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket The point is you weren't moving silent at the time and made no mention of moving silently in your tactics. Plus you mentioned about using the vrocks spores? It's a special attack and not gained through polymorph. I thought it would be assumed that Aku would move quietly after he cast Greater Invisibility. It's kinda silly to think that he would just be carelessly noisy after casting a spell to become invisible. Also, the Spores ability of a Vrock is an extraordinary special attack, and as such is gained via polymorph (see below): From the Polymorph spell, in the SRD: The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. It also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities. From the Demon, Vrock description, in the SRD: Spores (Ex): A vrock can release masses of spores from its body once every 3 rounds as a free action. The spores automatically deal 1d8 points of damage to all creatures adjacent to the vrock. They then penetrate the skin and grow, dealing an additional 1d4 points of damage each round for 10 rounds. At the end of this time, the victim is covered with a tangle of viny growths. (The vines are harmless and wither away in 1d4 days.) A delay poison spell stops the spores’ growth for its duration. Bless, neutralize poison, or remove disease kills the spores, as does sprinkling the victim with a vial of holy water. -Jindl This thread is now closed. Please continue any additional discussion in the Tavern.