| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| TelinArtho02-07-07, 01:12 PM | Fights of the Week: February 7th Please don't edit the sheet after the deadline or you will lose the match. Rules of Gladius All that you need to know is written in the Rules of Gladius. It could be useful also to give a look to the Court Decisions Part 1 and Part 2. Please do not make fake accounts or insult the Elders. Pairings GM Caterane will pair the active Characters of Gladius after the deadline. Make sure that your character is not in prison (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=571107&goto=lastpost). Pitlording You should use the CoCo Dice Roller (http://www.hwx.it/wizards.com) for the fight. If you need it, there is a nice template ready to use that will help. You could find the Battle Map Tag Generator (http://www.hwx.it/coco) for dynamic Maps very useful. You must post a link to your fight in this thread when it is complete. If you need a quick and dirty tool to calculate distances between two points (in 2-D or 3-D), this tool (http://wormhole.ath.cx/coco/coco_dist.php) should suffice. Another useful link is the Quick Access tables for XP and Gold. If a fight needs to be rerun, the Pitlord has to inform the Pitlords account. He cannot react to requests from Players because the other player and the pitlord might disagree. He has no time to read the fight and the discussion. Please keep that in mind. PMs from players with rerun requests won't have an impact. Recent News and Developments The World Event has ended Also if you're interested in the guild system please vote in the "Discussion: What should the guild system be like?" The Iron Man tournament is scheduled to start on March 14th. Get your characters active now to advance those last few levels as soon as possible! More details forthcoming. Comments & Concerns Post any comments or concerns for this weeks fights in this thread. Be kind and courteous to your fellow posters, and don't feed the pitlords. Please remember that they do hard work and consume a lot of time to let you play. Above all, have FUN! If you have questions or comments on any of the changes, please make your posts be heard in the Council of Gladius! |
| Pitlords02-07-07, 01:14 PM | I'd like to mention that we currently have pitlords for 10 fights plus Mitza's Max for our normally 20-25 fights. |
| hogarth02-07-07, 01:17 PM | I'd like to mention that we currently have pitlords for 10 fights plus Mitza's Max for our normally 20-25 fights. I would be delighted to take one fight this week -- LEVEL 3 ONLY!! (I hope I put in enough exclamation points in there.) |
| TelinArtho02-07-07, 01:27 PM | Cat - go ahead and assign a few more to me this week. Since I'll be taking a leave of absence in March - I can ramp up a few extra fights between now and then (I hope...). @my gladiators - as a result of this, I am going to have to be a little harder about the deadline for receiving tactics. If I have some fights to run on Thursday and Friday - I can be a little more lenient. If I don't receive a full set of tactics until the deadline though - expect forfeitures to happen. |
| MindWandererB02-07-07, 01:46 PM | @Cat: I can take one if need be, but not another ECL 10 full caster and his full caster cohort vs. 6 poor-maneuverability flying monsters again, please! Something simple-ish would be great. |
| Etiquette_Gnome02-07-07, 02:25 PM | Y'know, I think I'll go ahead and try my hand at the pitlording thing (just sent a PM to Pitlords Avatar). I might have to take a shot in the face to post the fight results, because I can't view an entire page of the Battles of Gladius thread with Firefox, and I dislike IE (but I'll take one for the team, as it were). Just keep it somewhat simple, as I am new. |
| MitzaVolchenko02-07-07, 02:34 PM | Y'know, I think I'll go ahead and try my hand at the pitlording thing (just sent a PM to Pitlords Avatar). I might have to take a shot in the face to post the fight results, because I can't view an entire page of the Battles of Gladius thread with Firefox, and I dislike IE (but I'll take one for the team, as it were). Just keep it somewhat simple, as I am new. What do you mean about firefox? I use it exclusively and woe be unto the player with broken tags that forces me to open the spawn of satan browser in order to view their full sheet! |
| Macbrea02-07-07, 02:41 PM | Yeah, pretty much I only use firefox (v 1.5.0.9). The dice roller and mapper work perfectly in it. Only issue that ever comes up is when players have broken tags in their character sheet. At that point I might need to open up IE. But Most of the time I quote their post and fix their tags. |
| hogarth02-07-07, 02:44 PM | Y'know, I think I'll go ahead and try my hand at the pitlording thing (just sent a PM to Pitlords Avatar). I might have to take a shot in the face to post the fight results, because I can't view an entire page of the Battles of Gladius thread with Firefox, and I dislike IE (but I'll take one for the team, as it were). Have you tried going to your personal options and lowering the number of posts per page to 20? That fixed the problem for me; I was unable to view the thread with IE, so I don't think it's a browser-specific problem. |
| SauroGrenom02-07-07, 02:51 PM | I've had the same problem with the battles thread. As Hogarth says, if you set the # of posts to a smaller number, the problem goes away. I asked wizards support about it when the boards were ported over to a new server. They said it was something to do with all the maps filling up a memory limit and causing the problem. There is nothing wrong with the boards, it's just an issue with the crazy size of the page with hundreds of pics. I was never able to figure out how to change the memory limit so it could work. If you do, let us all know. |
| MindWandererB02-07-07, 02:59 PM | I have the same story. At first, the thread only conked out once in a while, but then it became pretty much every time. I think it's a memory limit in vBulletin, not our browsers, because this never used to happen before the switch, and it was on and off for a while--probably has to do with memory usage on their end. I just keep everything on 20 posts per page, now. |
| TelinArtho02-07-07, 02:59 PM | And time's up. |
| Macbrea02-07-07, 03:06 PM | hmm, could have to do with memory on your machine. Both machines I view the boards on are pretty high amount of memory and processing power. Work is a programmers machine - 1gig of memory. Home is a gamers machine - 2gig of memory. |
| hogarth02-07-07, 03:11 PM | hmm, could have to do with memory on your machine. Both machines I view the boards on are pretty high amount of memory and processing power. Work is a programmers machine - 1gig of memory. Home is a gamers machine - 2gig of memory. ...and I can testify that the machines I view the boards on are pretty low on memory (512 MB). |
| Pitlords02-07-07, 03:58 PM | Pairings done |
| TelinArtho02-07-07, 04:05 PM | hmm - Anakala was apparently pushed up to the ECL6 league and is now in an interleauge fight? She's only ECL5 though. EDIT - actually - Toron is ECL5 as well. So we have 2 ECL5 characters fighting an ECL8 character? Cat - care to fix this one? |
| Macbrea02-07-07, 04:12 PM | Not that it really matters. but technically Relanex is on week 3 of 3 on building his 'winged boots (16,000gp)' |
| hogarth02-07-07, 04:25 PM | It looks like I didn't put enough exclamation points in my pitlord request @MitzaVolchenko - tactics sent for Balthazar Picsou |
| Pitlords02-07-07, 04:25 PM | Fixed Monsieur Hood (TheMagister) vs. Unknown Monster : MindwandererB [Sewer] Izumi[ECL7] (Macbrea) vs. Toron (Iced) & Anakala (TelinArtho) : Maraxus [Arena] [Inter-League] |
| Macbrea02-07-07, 04:32 PM | Hmm, that should be a brutal fight.. give me a bit to whip up some tactics for Izumi... |
| MindWandererB02-07-07, 04:42 PM | @TM: Monster info is up. There are two Large bipeds with sharp pointy teeth and claws. Have fun. |
| Macbrea02-07-07, 04:47 PM | @Maraxus: tactics for Izumi have been sent. |
| MindWandererB02-07-07, 04:54 PM | @Cat: Just noticed, Maya vs. Zodiac is a mismatch. ECL 4 vs. 5. Please correct, thanks. |
| Rauul02-07-07, 05:27 PM | @Etiquette_Gnome.. tactics sent for Rauul vs the masked bug |
| TelinArtho02-07-07, 05:45 PM | Journals of the Nightwalker [ECL3, Corbin "the Reborn" Nightwalker (renlim)] Ready to go. Comments on the style are appreciated - just feel like trying something different today. |
| Caterane02-07-07, 05:49 PM | Another fix ...sorry for the late post Maya Redwine (MindWandererB) vs. Unknown Monster : MitzaVolchenko [Temple] Zodiac (Vathelokai) => Rubicanti (TheMagister) => Reginald (hogarth) => Durin (Maraxus) : TelinArtho [Cavern] [Hunter] I hope you haven't already begun on tactics for the hunter match :( |
| Rauul02-07-07, 05:59 PM | @Sjiggie Graashnak Tactics sent vs the sneaky elf |
| Milov02-07-07, 06:06 PM | E. Gnome: Tactics for Mask were sent out. Everyone: G'luck this week :D |
| Maraxus02-07-07, 06:25 PM | Another fix ...sorry for the late post Maya Redwine (MindWandererB) vs. Unknown Monster : MitzaVolchenko [Temple] Zodiac (Vathelokai) => Rubicanti (TheMagister) => Reginald (hogarth) => Durin (Maraxus) : TelinArtho [Cavern] [Hunter] I hope you haven't already begun on tactics for the hunter match :( Begun, finished and sent. :) Okay, let's try again. PS: Where is this "Tatoo Focus: Enchantment [+1 to the DC of, and +1 on Spell Resistance Checks with Enchantments]" from? |
| Eluria02-07-07, 06:28 PM | @ Rauul - Tactics sent for Qwogi vs. Matthis |
| MindWandererB02-07-07, 06:40 PM | Begun, finished and sent. :) Okay, let's try again. PS: Where is this "Tatoo Focus: Enchantment [+1 to the DC of, and +1 on Spell Resistance Checks with Enchantments]" from? It's in the DMG 3.5, but not in the SRD, because it's a Red Wizard thing, and Red Wizards are from the Forgotten Realms. |
| Zevox02-07-07, 06:41 PM | PS: Where is this "Tatoo Focus: Enchantment [+1 to the DC of, and +1 on Spell Resistance Checks with Enchantments]" from? DMG, under the information about the Red Wizard PrC. Its a feat from the Forgotten Realms specifically for Red Wizards to boost their skill with their specialist school (and a prerequisite for the PrC). Zevox |
| TheMagister02-07-07, 06:52 PM | @TM: Monster info is up. There are two Large bipeds with sharp pointy teeth and claws. Have fun. Dammit. My first fight with my pegasus ally would be in the sewers. Drat. |
| Zevox02-07-07, 07:03 PM | @ Rauul - Tactics for Arden Tarmik (vs Anastria Korrik) have been PMed. That one will mostly come down to the dice I imagine. @ hogarth - Tactics for Ceilia Durrol (vs Zwei und'Vierzig) have been PMed. That one could go a number of ways - it'll be interesting to see what Mitza comes up with for tactics. @ Cat - Just noticed another error: McJarvis said last week that he was going to be requesting to be removed from pitlording, but hes still listed as running Valen vs Istima. Isn't there anybody else who could take that? Zevox |
| MitzaVolchenko02-07-07, 07:07 PM | I can take it. Pitlords has been PM'd. |
| Vathelokai02-07-07, 09:17 PM | PS: Where is this "Tatoo Focus: Enchantment [+1 to the DC of, and +1 on Spell Resistance Checks with Enchantments]" from? Because the Red Wizard stuff is only in the DMG, I have copied it to the 'miscelaneous' section of Zodiac's sheet. It is also at post 13 of the TAO thread. |
| Zevox02-07-07, 09:22 PM | I can take it. Pitlords has been PM'd. Cool :) . McJarvis posted the tactics already here. There was also some discussion about Hirumajoe's in the last FotW thread, if you want to take a look at that - mostly dealing with the way his smokestick and Istima's line effects work. Zevox |
| TheMagister02-07-07, 09:31 PM | @ MWB - tactics for Hood vs. Tooth and Nail sent via PM. Should be either very easy or very hard. Ever get the feeling that you either wrote way too many tactics, or not nearly enough? :confused: |
| Zevox02-07-07, 09:55 PM | Ever get the feeling that you either wrote way too many tactics, or not nearly enough? :confused: All the time my friend. All the time. Zevox |
| MitzaVolchenko02-07-07, 10:42 PM | @ hogarth - Tactics for Ceilia Durrol (vs Zwei und'Vierzig) have been PMed. That one could go a number of ways - it'll be interesting to see what Mitza comes up with for tactics. Zevox You must be seeing something I am not :P Tactics will be away in a few minutes. I am just checking on a couple of rules regarding Ride to negate hit. |
| TheMagister02-07-07, 10:50 PM | @TelinArtho - tactics for Rubicanti vs. everybody sent via PM. Here's hopin' that we all get our tactics in early so this one won't be resolved on Tuesday! TM |
| Vathelokai02-08-07, 12:12 AM | Tactics for Zodiac vs a dwarf, an elf, an elan, a psicrystal, and three lt. warhorses sent to TelinArtho. Ya' know, rewards for an el5 fight don't seem quite right here... :D |
| MindWandererB02-08-07, 12:57 AM | @ MWB - tactics for Hood vs. Tooth and Nail sent via PM. Should be either very easy or very hard. Ever get the feeling that you either wrote way too many tactics, or not nearly enough? :confused: Got it. That happens with monster fights, when you have no Knowledge. I'll run it tomorrow--I'm sure you're overprepared rather than the reverse. |
| NiQil02-08-07, 01:27 AM | Grrrrrrr..... I am seriously considering just surrendering both of my fights...this ally thing is way out of control. Both opponents this week have non-class allies. I don't remember the last time I had a week where none of my PC's had a fight that didn't have a non-class ally. Last time I checked, this forum was about who could build the better character, not who could build the better zookeeper. It is VERY discouraging to know that you have a decent PC and are fairly adept at tactics, only to lose week after week after week after week because everyone you battle has a non-class ally of some kind. Maybe I'll just Maven my way to frozen.... |
| Vathelokai02-08-07, 01:48 AM | I've got your back, NiQil! I 'ave to fight grappling horses this week in a hunter match... :weep: And in other news, Tactics for the Frozen Showdown between Auburn and Noko are out. Summoners are so much more fun at higher levels. |
| TheMagister02-08-07, 02:01 AM | Grrrrrrr..... I am seriously considering just surrendering both of my fights...this ally thing is way out of control. Both opponents this week have non-class allies. I don't remember the last time I had a week where none of my PC's had a fight that didn't have a non-class ally. Last time I checked, this forum was about who could build the better character, not who could build the better zookeeper. It is VERY discouraging to know that you have a decent PC and are fairly adept at tactics, only to lose week after week after week after week because everyone you battle has a non-class ally of some kind. Maybe I'll just Maven my way to frozen.... {Palpatine Voice} "Yeeeessss...I can feel your anger...your hatred... Strike me down. Your hatred makes you powerful... Join me! You cannot imagine the power of allies!" I feel the same way, man. When I made Tessero, I felt all dirty inside. Then I went and got (not just a pegasus) an elite pegasus mount for Mssr. Hood. I still feel dirty, but I'm sure enough of my builds that I only bought the mounts to keep up with the Jones'. You gotta do what you gotta do. TM |
| MitzaVolchenko02-08-07, 02:16 AM | Grrrrrrr..... I am seriously considering just surrendering both of my fights...this ally thing is way out of control. Both opponents this week have non-class allies. I don't remember the last time I had a week where none of my PC's had a fight that didn't have a non-class ally. Last time I checked, this forum was about who could build the better character, not who could build the better zookeeper. It is VERY discouraging to know that you have a decent PC and are fairly adept at tactics, only to lose week after week after week after week because everyone you battle has a non-class ally of some kind. Maybe I'll just Maven my way to frozen.... Hon, this may be just a way to make Sybil's record worse than it already is, but for ages Gleason has just been an rp tool. He isn't pre-buffed and probably never will be again. He has done many amusing things, though...for instance he fetches sticks rather well...and he is good at barking at goblins. I feel your pain on allies...Zwei faces a hippogriff this week. Sybil faced one last week. And then there are all the horses, griffons, wargs, giant bats, blah blah blah. I have more or less resolved to not look at the power ratings or win-loss record. Sybil and Zwei are both campaign worthy character builds. Indivara is a fairly straightforward baby dragon Sliver was the closest I got to twink building, and she was just for fun *curses Cat once more for ruining Sliver's ambition to wipe opponents' memories and then tell them they are in the wrong arena*. What can ya do? Handle Animal and Diplomacy are more potent even than Leadership since CoCo completely rapes the feat. Perhaps if we all just focused on killing the allies. Sure we'll take losses, but the allies will be gone for the next fight... |
| Sindorin02-08-07, 02:32 AM | Allies dominating or at least throwing curves in fights is nothing new. Any time that an ally has been utilized in tactics it was always somewhat powerful. The way around it: Get your own!!! |
| Zevox02-08-07, 02:58 AM | What can ya do? Handle Animal and Diplomacy are more potent even than Leadership since CoCo completely rapes the feat. *blinks* Now theres a statement I've not heard before. Every time allies gets brought up, it seems to be that while Diplomacy is considered the #1 troublemaker, Leadership is a close second, and Handle Animal is barely on the radar since most of its worthwhile allies can just be bought anyway. So I just have to ask, where does that stem from? How is Leadership less potent here, or Handle Animal more potent than Leadership? Zevox |
| Maraxus02-08-07, 09:12 AM | It's because Diplomacy always takes the monsters CR - Handle animal anyway - while Leadership takes ECL. For example, take an Level 8 character. With leadership, he could get a Mephit, an ECL 6 ally. With Diplomacy, however, you could get the same Mephit as a CR 3 ally, and another one. So just for roughly 1 skill point the level you get twice as much effect as for a feat... I don't want to kill the whole Alli-System, but I'd like to make that suggestion: The formula for allies: Every ally has an ally-value of his ECL (Leadership, mercs) or his CR*2 (diplomacy, handle animal). No single ally may have a value higher then the main character's ECL-2 and the total may not be greater then the ECL. Furthermore, the light horse (not the warhorse), without any tricks tought or personal modifications has a houseruled CR of 1/2. |
| hogarth02-08-07, 12:16 PM | Tactics for Zodiac vs a dwarf, an elf, an elan, a psicrystal, and three lt. warhorses sent to TelinArtho. Ya' know, rewards for an el5 fight don't seem quite right here... :D Just be glad Reg didn't bring his crack donkey attack squad. :D @TelinArtho: tactics sent for Reginald Molehusband |
| Zevox02-08-07, 12:37 PM | It's because Diplomacy always takes the monsters CR - Handle animal anyway - while Leadership takes ECL. While that does give Diplomacy some edges over Leadership - and as I said, it does seem to generally be considered the #1 troublemaker around here - Leadership still has plenty of advantages (being able to get allies Diplomacy can't, particularly PC-types), and none of the Handle Animal allies have an ECL anyway, so that doesn't seem to me to totally explain Mitza's statement. So just for roughly 1 skill point the level you get twice as much effect as for a feat... Um, you'd need a hell of a lot of special modifiers to get a Mephit for 1 skill point. They require a base diplomacy mod of +11, and goes up higher for such simple things as if your alignment is not TN or they have any higher mental score than you. Yeah, most folks using Diplomacy for something like that are going to have Diplomacy maxed out, plus have 5 ranks in two or three of its synergy skills. Zevox |
| Hirumajoe02-08-07, 12:50 PM | Um, you'd need a hell of a lot of special modifiers to get a Mephit for 1 skill point. They require a base diplomacy mod of +11, and goes up higher for such simple things as if your alignment is not TN or they have any higher mental score than you. Yeah, most folks using Diplomacy for something like that are going to have Diplomacy maxed out, plus have 5 ranks in two or three of its synergy skills. Zevox I think he meant to say "per" instead of "the": So just for roughly 1 skill point per level you get twice as much effect as for a feat... Which is basically right. Ignoring edge effects of level 1. :) Besides, at level 8 (the level you can get a mehpit with a feat and sufficient charisma/renown), you already can have +11 in diplomacy without any synergy or charisma bonuses. (Assuming diplomacy is in class of course). |
| Zevox02-08-07, 12:55 PM | I think he meant to say "per" instead of "the": So just for roughly 1 skill point per level you get twice as much effect as for a feat... Which is basically right. Ignoring edge effects of level 1. :) Except most folks who want a good diplomacy mod need to pay for those synergy skills too - high charisma just isn't as great an option for most of the classes with that as a class skill that we see around here (Clerics, the rare Telepath, and Druids); and certainly anyone with it as a cross-class skill is going to absolutely need those synergy skills. I'm not saying its not a damn potent, perhaps even (still) overpowered, option; just that saying 1 skill point or 1 point/level is overstating its potency a little. :) Zevox |
| Hirumajoe02-08-07, 01:08 PM | Except most folks who want a good diplomacy mod need to pay for those synergy skills too - high charisma just isn't as great an option for most of the classes with that as a class skill that we see around here (Clerics, the rare Telepath, and Druids); and certainly anyone with it as a cross-class skill is going to absolutely need those synergy skills. I'm not saying its not a damn potent, perhaps even (still) overpowered, option; just that saying 1 skill point or 1 point/level is overstating its potency a little. :) Zevox Good point. Its true that I do see alot of magic items and feats/skill synergies boosting that particular skill on alot of the characters in the wild. Certainly more than I see with, say Knowledge: Geography. :) |
| hogarth02-08-07, 01:21 PM | While that does give Diplomacy some edges over Leadership - and as I said, it does seem to generally be considered the #1 troublemaker around here - Leadership still has plenty of advantages (being able to get allies Diplomacy can't, particularly PC-types), and none of the Handle Animal allies have an ECL anyway, so that doesn't seem to me to totally explain Mitza's statement. You can't directly compare Handle Animal and Leadership, but you can come up with some comparisons. For instance, which is better? a 4 HD worg cohort (ECL 5) that costs a feat to acquire -- if it dies during a fight, you're out of luck an 8 HD dire lion handle animal ally (CR 5) that costs a miniquest to acquire -- if it dies during a fight, you can have a whole barnful of other handle animal allies at home as backups, waiting to replace it Again, which is better? a 6 HD winter wolf cohort (ECL 9) a 20 HD legendary bear ally (CR 9) (I admit that's kind of a straw man argument, though -- it's unlikely that anyone's going to take a winter wolf as a cohort.) |
| MindWandererB02-08-07, 01:26 PM | Amusing side-note on this topic: When the announcement at the top of the forums right now went up, I took a look at the CoCo archives just out of curiosity. One of the threads I spotted there was about allies. What was really amusing was that Moherajiyux (I know I spelled that wrong) was GM at the time. Cat was still arguing passionately for more allies, because the Handle Animal and Animate Dead users were dominating. Although that discussion was about the ability to hire monsters as mercenaries (which, I assume, never happened), I can guess that the Doplomacy ally rule was born as a result. Which didn't fix anything--the ones without allies still get pulverized by the ones that have them, most often. It did, however, introduce the MaxCA rule, which I think is a good one. The extremists were for banning allies altogether--no druid animal companions, no familiars, no Leadership (psionic were not allowed at the time). But now that I've read that thread, I can see how we got to where we are. They couldn't very well ban animal companions. Animate Dead is sort of a class feature, being a spell, and Moher was abusing that one and beating all comers. Then someone used the existing Handle Animal rules to train a tyrannosaurus.... Since very few wanted to take away class features, the decision was to level the playing field by expanding ally options to more characters. And having seen that... I'm a little less vehement about opposing allies. I don't want Leadership (and enough Cha to use it effectively) to become mandatory. And the best way to compete with Leadership is to get allies through some other source. Remember, Mitza, NiQil, and anyone else (including myself, really), we do have a roster of mercenaries. Hiring one of those may be a good idea for you guys. And if that starts becoming a popular option, we can create more of them--right now, Cat won't approve more that one per ECL because there's no demand. |
| Zevox02-08-07, 01:39 PM | You can't directly compare Handle Animal and Leadership, but you can come up with some comparisons. For instance, which is better? a 4 HD worg cohort (ECL 5) that costs a feat to acquire -- if it dies during a fight, you're out of luck an 8 HD dire lion handle animal ally (CR 5) that costs a miniquest to acquire -- if it dies during a fight, you can have a whole barnful of other handle animal allies at home as backups, waiting to replace it Again, which is better? a 6 HD winter wolf cohort (ECL 9) a 20 HD legendary bear ally (CR 9) (I admit that's kind of a straw man argument, though -- it's unlikely that anyone's going to take a winter wolf as a cohort.) As you say, thats rather a straw man argument. Its true enough in and of itself, but there are several reasons it doesn't really work as a comparison. For starters, those are sub-par leadership allies to begin with (how many will take a Worg over a level 5 Grey Elf Wizard or Psion? A level 5 human Cleric or Druid?). Second, you're comparing equal CR/ECL creatures, when if you can use the CR creature you can have a Leadership cohort of 2 ECLs higher than that CR. And third, those leadership cohorts advance automatically without needing to do so via racial HD or using credits - so which will be better for an ECL 9 character; that Lion handle animal ally at CR 5, or a Worg with two levels of Psychic Warrior, 25 pt buy, and fully customized skills and feats at ECL 7? Now bump that character to level 10, and note that the lion is staying the same, while the Worg is now a 3rd level Psychic Warrior who can use Expansion to grow to huge size for 3 pp. Yeah, I think you get the drift. Zevox |
| Abyssal Stalker02-08-07, 01:48 PM | @Telin; MQ is up. "208 legs" @Maraxus: Monster lore PM'ed and posted to the battles thread. |
| hogarth02-08-07, 01:55 PM | As you say, thats rather a straw man argument. Its true enough in and of itself, but there are several reasons it doesn't really work as a comparison. For starters, those are sub-par leadership allies to begin with (how many will take a Worg over a level 5 Grey Elf Wizard or Psion? A level 5 human Cleric or Druid?). This I completely agree with. There's no getting around the fact that non-humanoid cohorts have dubious value at best. Second, you're comparing equal CR/ECL creatures, when if you can use the CR creature you can have a Leadership cohort of 2 ECLs higher than that CR. I was just going to replace "Dire Lion" with "Dire Wolf" and "Legendary Bear" with "Dire Bear", but I was too late. ;) And third, those leadership cohorts advance automatically without needing to do so via racial HD or using credits - so which will be better for an ECL 9 character; that Lion handle animal ally at CR 5, or a Worg with two levels of Psychic Warrior at ECL 7? Now bump that character to level 10, and note that the lion is staying the same, while the Worg is now a 3rd level Psychic Warrior who can use Expansion to grow to huge size for 3 pp. But while one guy is using his Worg psychic warrior (ECL 8), the other guy has miniquested for an 15 HD advanced dire wolf (CR 6), say. He just keeps his old ally in a shed out back in case his new uber-wolf dies and he needs a backup ally. Arguments like this are pointless, but fun. :D I'm convinced that the best solution would be to have brackets based on a gladiator team's CR, not level; after all that's how we're working the "team" rules already. It'll never happen, though. |
| MitzaVolchenko02-08-07, 01:56 PM | Remember, Mitza, NiQil, and anyone else (including myself, really), we do have a roster of mercenaries. Hiring one of those may be a good idea for you guys. And if that starts becoming a popular option, we can create more of them--right now, Cat won't approve more that one per ECL because there's no demand. So pay to get the merc *and* lose part of your xp/gold? That is a rather expensive expendable, don't you think? Allies are out of control...again, still...whatever. Diplomacy and Handle Animal start handing out candy to infants. Leadership, while based on ECL in CoCo still requires the 6HD. You do not get the followers that should also be there, and death has a much heftier penalty. Unless of course we do get to make the followers up as well, in which case I am fully prepared to have my next character's allies cause a rules change as 60 level one followers can get downright abusive. Her selection would be 15th level cohort (dumbed down in the extreme to fit into her ECL cap), 60-1st lvl, 6-2nd lvl, 3-3rd lvl, 2-4th lvl, 1-5th lvl, 1-6th lvl. With that line in effect, she gets her cohort as her primary choice and a 5th/6th lvl back up, and a bevy of spares if I feel like see what happens when a handful of low level druids all cast entangle on the same square. Perhaps she should take over a district and declare herself a guild... My point is that Leadership should be powerful. It is a 6HD required feat. Handle Animal and Diplomacy should be constant work and should not overpower something that takes a feat which has no other purpose than providing allies. The skills have other uses, the feat is a dead end for productivity. |
| MitzaVolchenko02-08-07, 02:00 PM | In case anyone is paying attention to it this is why there has been a deviation from Maya's monster roll: [Sent to Cat and Mitza] Okay, so Mitza rolled me a monster of the EL 4 table, and got 1d3+1 Shocker Lizards. The problem? That's an EL 5 encounter (well, 4-6, but 5 on average). I'm petitioning that: 1) The table be corrected; it should be 1d3 or 2d2-1 shocker lizards. In fact, 2d2 shocker lizards is on the EL 5 table already.... properly, this should be something else entirely. 2) My encounter be reduced by a lizard. It's still EL 5, but that's the dice's fault. This is Cat's call. I will repeat once again that CR=ECL=EL=LA is BS. I have always thougt that. Now, that being said, a lot of folks get owned by the monster fights, so while I don't object to a reduction in the number of lizards, it isn't really fair to anyone else who has had to essentially surrender or auto-lose a monster fight. MWB is right; 1d3+1 belongs to EL 5 list. I reduced it to 1d3 so please remove 1 lizard from the encounter. Thanks. |
| Rauul02-08-07, 02:03 PM | Remember, Mitza, NiQil, and anyone else (including myself, really), we do have a roster of mercenaries. Hiring one of those may be a good idea for you guys. And if that starts becoming a popular option, we can create more of them--right now, Cat won't approve more that one per ECL because there's no demand. hireing a mercenary is to me kinda foolish.. not only does it take the inital cost in gold, it then takes exp and gold from you in the areana, yet the Light warhorse, that grapples, charges, flanks ect.. for 150 gold and keeps on giving.. cost 25% exp (that it can't use) and 25% gold (thats alot of oats) and if the person has Handle animal they can teach it other tricks.. the horse also has a move of 60.. Not even going to talk about ELITE classes, got an extra 1000 gp.. and this is all without credits As for Animate dead.. it's nerfed.. to use it unless you want skeleton horses, costs you 3 credits, and then the undead take away from the exp/gold per battle, and the Undead has to be ecl-2 from the caster.. Would be better to use the 3 credits to go on a quest and get a Vampire Spawn via Rebulk undead and diplomacy, and have a cohort.. |
| hogarth02-08-07, 02:10 PM | As for Animate dead.. it's nerfed.. to use it unless you want skeleton horses, costs you 3 credits Most people would choose to do a miniquest (which costs no credits) instead of a full quest. |
| Hirumajoe02-08-07, 02:17 PM | This I completely agree with. There's no getting around the fact that non-humanoid cohorts have dubious value at best. I disagree. The ECL of a character assumes a certain amount of wealth. Leadership allies do not receive that amount. The Cr of a non-humanoid monster is for as it is listed in the MM. Without any equipment. If you take a 12th level fighter, with dirt cheap (non-magical) equipment, and put it up against a Legendary Tiger (CR 10) with no magical enhancements, who is going to win? And if you start pouring money into the fighter, you can do the exact same thing with the Tiger. He has magic item slots after all. In the case of a 12th level Wizard, he's going to need to succeed on a save or die spell, because 35 damage average fireballs isn't going to cut it against 305 hp. And his spell DC is going to be around 20-24 for his most powerful spells which he can cast twice or three times a day. A Legendary Tiger's weakest save, Will, is +12. With no equipment or spell buffs. Which gets him a 50/50 chance. And once that tiger is on him, well you can pretty much say bye bye. If you're looking for raw physical firepower, an animal is going to beat out an equivalent humanoid. I was just going to replace "Dire Lion" with "Dire Wolf" and "Legendary Bear" with "Dire Bear", but I was too late. ;) But while one guy is using his Worg psychic warrior (ECL 8), the other guy has miniquested for an 18 HD advanced dire wolf (CR 6), say. He just keeps his old ally in a shed out back in case his new uber-wolf dies and he needs a backup ally. You also have to remember ECL does not equal CR. Even if the creatures you are considering are 2 Cr less than the ECL, that can still be more powerful. I mean, take the mephit example. The ECL is +3 greater than the CR. And while we have a cap of CR-4, there's nothing preventing you from bringing an extra CR 2 ally to fill up the leftovers. Even a simple pair of wolves can make a difference in the right fights, providing AoOs and flanking bonuses. |
| MindWandererB02-08-07, 02:31 PM | I will repeat once again that CR=ECL=EL=LA is BS.This bugs me, so I'll address it. We don't treat those as the same thing. We never have, nor have the D&D official rules. For instance, two level 3 blue psions have an LA of +1, a CR of 3, an ECL of 4, and an EL of 5. Not the same. That's how we treat them in our rules, which is exactly the same as the core rules in this case. Unless, Mitza, you have a proposal that you think would balance monster encounters more fairly? Seeing as how they already approximate a 50/50 win rate? Or do you just think monster fights should be removed from ths system altogether (which, as you know, will never happen). |
| orsono02-08-07, 02:52 PM | @MitzaVolchenko Tactics for Gashara sent! thanks for running the fight Mitza!! -Orsono |
| Zevox02-08-07, 02:52 PM | But while one guy is using his Worg psychic warrior (ECL 8), the other guy has miniquested for an 15 HD advanced dire wolf (CR 6), say. He just keeps his old ally in a shed out back in case his new uber-wolf dies and he needs a backup ally. Of course, he had to cough up a boatload of credits for the advanced Dire Wolf, which Leadership doesn't require. And I believe Sauro showed pretty well last time this got taken to the Council that advanced allies are in any event a bigger problem than standard HA/Diplomacy allies - in fact, did anything come of that? I had thought with the arguments he laid out we might at least get advanced allies removed around here, but I don't think it happened, did it? Allies are out of control...again, still...whatever. Diplomacy and Handle Animal start handing out candy to infants. Leadership, while based on ECL in CoCo still requires the 6HD. You do not get the followers that should also be there, and death has a much heftier penalty. Unless of course we do get to make the followers up as well, in which case I am fully prepared to have my next character's allies cause a rules change as 60 level one followers can get downright abusive. Actually, theres nothing in our rules prohibiting you from using your followers. In fact, the one Thrallherd I've seen used to use his believers (same thing), and I know Maraxus' Zassl has used his Leadership followers before. They still count toward your max CA (so no matter what, you'll never field those 60 level 1s at the same time), like any ally, but you can have them too if you wish. yet the Light warhorse, that grapples, charges, flanks ect.. for 150 gold and keeps on giving.. Actually, customized allies (which you'd need to do for a light warhorse to grapple effectively) are illegal at level 3 already, so you don't see those much any more (just Reginald's bunch, which got out of ECL 3 before that rule was put in place). As for Animate dead.. it's nerfed.. to use it unless you want skeleton horses, costs you 3 credits, and then the undead take away from the exp/gold per battle, and the Undead has to be ecl-2 from the caster.. Oh trust me, Animate Dead is far from nerfed (as I intend on having my character Ceilia prove starting at level 7, and getting worse as time goes on). It doesn't need to cost credits since it can be gotten via a miniquest. The xp/gp loss just slows your leveling - theres no real impact on you in the long run (and in any event, all non-class allies do that anyway). And to be technical, since they're CR creatures, you need them to be ECL-4 CR - but you can get some high HD skeletons and zombies for relatively low CR anyway, so thats not a bother. If you want an example of it used effectively, look at the Harvester (ECL 8). Nightmare Skeleton. Flying mount that outdoes anything but a Pegasus (and arguably even that, with superior maneuverability). @ Hirmajoe - Of course, said Legendary Tiger requires a huge handle animal skill (at level 14, you need at the skill maxed out plus another 9 points of modifier to it to get that beast, which means either feats, a huge charisma score, magical items, or some combination of those to boost it). And its ground-bound, so a wizard cohort can just use a fly spell to render it totally useless and ignorable while he focuses on its owner on most maps. Though to be perfectly honest, I'm curious why monsters from the epic section of the SRD are among that handle animal list - their CR may fit with us, but it seems odd to allow creatures listed as epic monsters as player allies. I mean, nothing else in its CR range compares to it (even 11 headed Hydras don't look so great in comparison). Zevox |
| MitzaVolchenko02-08-07, 03:11 PM | This bugs me, so I'll address it. We don't treat those as the same thing. We never have, nor have the D&D official rules. For instance, two level 3 blue psions have an LA of +1, a CR of 3, an ECL of 4, and an EL of 5. Not the same. That's how we treat them in our rules, which is exactly the same as the core rules in this case. Unless, Mitza, you have a proposal that you think would balance monster encounters more fairly? Seeing as how they already approximate a 50/50 win rate? Or do you just think monster fights should be removed from ths system altogether (which, as you know, will never happen). Interesting that you say this as you just got an encounter lowered for Maya when every chart on the monster fight list contains higher than it should be options and at higher levels has you actually roll on a different chart. We are equating EL to ECL, right there. I note you objected to the lizards on the chart but not the other imbalanced monsters. CR's are meant to be taken by a party, not a soloist. LA does not really equal levels and certainly not CR...take the white wyrmling...as a CR capped item you can drag them around in the arena easily, as an LA they pump your ECL. As a PC white wyrmling is min ECL5, as an ally CR=2. We are constantly pushing the interaction as equal between these things. Why do we see in the Tavern 'nice thought, but the LA isn't worth it' or 'omg! that is a horrid abuse of squeezing absurd allies in due to relatively low CR!' Any road, this is not the place for this discussion. If it continues, I'll take it to the tavern. |
| Rauul02-08-07, 03:17 PM | delete please |
| hogarth02-08-07, 03:20 PM | @MitzaVolchenko: I will be running the Zwei vs Ceilia fight on Saturday, so please have your tactics in by Saturday morning (EST). |
| Hirumajoe02-08-07, 03:21 PM | @ Hirmajoe - Of course, said Legendary Tiger requires a huge handle animal skill (at level 14, you need at the skill maxed out plus another 9 points of modifier to it to get that beast, which means either feats, a huge charisma score, magical items, or some combination of those to boost it). And its ground-bound, so a wizard cohort can just use a fly spell to render it totally useless and ignorable while he focuses on its owner on most maps. Though to be perfectly honest, I'm curious why monsters from the epic section of the SRD are among that handle animal list - their CR may fit with us, but it seems odd to allow creatures listed as epic monsters as player allies. I mean, nothing else in its CR range compares to it (even 11 headed Hydras don't look so great in comparison). Zevox Its true that you need a maxed HA skill and a +9 modifier. But to get that level 12 wizard at level 14 you need a +3 Cha modifier. Which on a 10 Cha character is a 36,000 gp investment. To get +10 HA on a 10 Cha character costs 10,000 gp. And some credits admittedly. But then again, credits shouldn't be used for balancing power levels anyways. Though, I have to admit, the flying wizard does put a crimp on the tiger plan. Although with a +19 jump skill, and an average roll of 10, and a 8 ft vertical reach, said tiger can hit an opponent up to 15-20' feet in the air. Which only leaves the Plains, City, and Arena with the wizard out of reach. 3/7 it loses, and I'd argue that 4/7 it wins quite alot. Although, I'd love to see a legendary tiger with a fly spell cast on it. I think it'd make for a fairly effective flying battleship. And as for being from epic handbook, well its in the SRD and therefore something everyone has access to. Why shouldn't we allow it? Should we disallow the epic uses of skills if someone has a modifier that high? Or prevent people from taking the non-epic feats listed in the epic handbook? |
| Zevox02-08-07, 03:33 PM | Its true that you need a maxed HA skill and a +9 modifier. But to get that level 12 wizard at level 14 you need a +3 Cha modifier. Which on a 10 Cha character is a 36,000 gp investment. To get +10 HA on a 10 Cha character costs 10,000 gp. And some credits admittedly. But then again, credits shouldn't be used for balancing power levels anyways. I don't know about you, but I don't see very many Charisma 10 characters taking Leadership. The only ones I can think of are Cat's Uhm (who has Great Reknown to boost his score) and Rith's Ignatius (who just accepts a lower level cohort). Though, I have to admit, the flying wizard does put a crimp on the tiger plan. Although with a +19 jump skill, and an average roll of 10, and a 8 ft vertical reach, said tiger can hit an opponent up to 15-20' feet in the air. Which only leaves the Plains, City, and Arena with the wizard out of reach. 3/7 it loses, and I'd argue that 4/7 it wins quite alot. Actually, the Forest is high enough that even jumping won't let it reach him either. Which reverses the numbers there. Not that this means its not an effective idea when you get the right map, but its still counterable. And as for being from epic handbook, well its in the SRD and therefore something everyone has access to. Why shouldn't we allow it? Should we disallow the epic uses of skills if someone has a modifier that high? Or prevent people from taking the non-epic feats listed in the epic handbook? As far as I know, the epic uses of skills have never come up, but I'd say it'd be open for debate. The non-epic feats are rather specifically listed as such in the epic section though, meaning they're intended to be open to non-epic beings. Whether the Legendary Animals or epic skill uses are or should be is another matter entirely. Zevox |
| Hirumajoe02-08-07, 04:32 PM | I don't know about you, but I don't see very many Charisma 10 characters taking Leadership. The only ones I can think of are Cat's Uhm (who has Great Reknown to boost his score) and Rith's Ignatius (who just accepts a lower level cohort). Okay, in the case of someone who already has a +3 cha bonus, you only need a +6 HA item, which costs 3,600 gp (plus credits). Which means the total cost is 3,600 gp plus a maxed skill versus a feat. I still think that's very comparible (especially at level 14). Actually, the Forest is high enough that even jumping won't let it reach him either. Which reverses the numbers there. Not that this means its not an effective idea when you get the right map, but its still counterable. I was maybe thinking the tiger might climb the trees and jump from there onto the Wizard? I think thats allowed. The tiger also has some decent hide and move silent scores, so he might be able to get the drop on the Wizard too. Admittedly, there are parts of the map where the tiger can't do that, but at least some of it is going to be a no-man's land for the wizard. I personally could see the forest going either way. And you're right, there are counters to the tiger, just as there are counters to the wizard. In any case, what we're arguing about is something the CoCo is designed to determine in the arena. :) So we'll probably not come to a conclusion just in a discussion thread. But you have to admit balance is out of whack when 12th Wizard > (CR 10) Tiger > 12th Fighter when 12th Wizard is supposed to equal 12th Fighter and both of which are "supposed" to be stronger than a CR 10 Tiger. I would argue any ECL 12 ally except a straight Wizard or Psion is going to lose to that tiger, without equipment. And watch out if that tiger belongs to a wizard or druid capable of buffing it. As far as I know, the epic uses of skills have never come up, but I'd say it'd be open for debate. The non-epic feats are rather specifically listed as such in the epic section though, meaning they're intended to be open to non-epic beings. Whether the Legendary Animals or epic skill uses are or should be is another matter entirely. Zevox Wait, so the non-epic feats from the epic handbook are okay, but the non-epic animals from the epic handbook aren't? And the epic skill section specifically states you don't need to be epic to use them, just have a high enough check to succeed. So what is the fundamental difference? Besides, we allow Unearthed Arcana, the Deities book and so forth, why shouldn't we allow stuff from the Epic handbook which is compatible with our level range? |
| MindWandererB02-08-07, 04:37 PM | Keep in mind that the Legendary Animals exist primarily to serve as animal companions to a high-level 3.0 druid. Working them into a 3.5 game is going to be awkward at best. Keep in mind, though, that the same animals appeared in Masters of the Wild and MM2, for the same purpose--companions for high-level (not necessarily epic) druids. |
| SauroGrenom02-08-07, 05:12 PM | This stuff about the epic handbook always makes me wonder what the LA would be on a worm that walks. None is listed, but the CR is only +3 above the CR of the example if it didn't have the template. If we use the coco assumption that CR=ECL we get an interesting result. That the LA on this template is only +3. Not bad when compared to a lich. But totally house ruled, so not CoCo kosher. |
| Erithmu02-08-07, 05:22 PM | I don't know about you, but I don't see very many Charisma 10 characters taking Leadership. The only ones I can think of are Cat's Uhm (who has Great Reknown to boost his score) and Rith's Ignatius (who just accepts a lower level cohort). Leadership = Exotic Weapon Proficency (Wilder) I just needed some 'ranged' fire power to add to my scary dragon. That and Iggy has the Special Power tag which helps out as well. |
| MindWandererB02-08-07, 07:21 PM | Monsieur Hood vs. 2 megaraptors is done. |
| TheMagister02-08-07, 07:31 PM | Monsieur Hood vs. 2 megaraptors is done. YAY! Wow, am I GLAD that I befriended Hope!! I would like to submit something that matters not at all for this fight, but might in the future. Strength of my Enemy deals ability damage, and damage is tripled on a critical hit. So a crit with a x3 bow gains Hood THREE STRENGTH. Right? Oh. And how do megaraptors do their neat little leap attack when there are only 10' ceilings in the sewers? They can't charge through sludge, and so they have to jump, but they can't jump, becuase their heads already brush the ceiling... TM |
| MindWandererB02-08-07, 07:40 PM | Good points, both. Fortunately irrelevant. |
| TheMagister02-08-07, 07:46 PM | Thank goodness. Those dice were super-hot... Thanks for running it so soon! Now if I can only get the dice to change their attitude for Rubicanti... |
| MindWandererB02-08-07, 08:19 PM | Meh, I fixed it anyway. I'm a perfectionist. Really, the only hot die you got was the crit on the 3rd shot, and that last hoof... oh, crap. That last hoof would have missed, now, because there was no -2 AC for the charge. However, I note that I could have avoided the AoO you took by having you take one step less. Hood could then kill raptor B with a quick punch from his spiked gauntlet and resume the fight as it stands. Although in all honesty, that's not what his tactics would call for, he should stand put and heal. But I can't say I feel like re-running half the fight, even though there's a very strong chance that the outcome would change, since raptor A would get off a brutal full attack on Hope and probably kill her. <Groan>... someone convince me not to fix this. I really don't want to.... |
| TheMagister02-08-07, 09:01 PM | I already edited my character sheet... -or- You could change the Strength of my Enemy to Dissolving Weapon. Both tactics did apply, and I did specify that I wanted to go for all-out damage if I was cornered. That would solve the problem almost seamlessly. TM |
| MitzaVolchenko02-08-07, 09:08 PM | Maya's monster fight is in progress...and something to note for ya'll, I am willing to run fights round by round or seperate thread. Unfortunately MWB had to bolt. I am hoping that he is around again before I have to go back to tactics as written. Advantages: You keep control and can alter actions based on what happens. I don't have to interpret your tactics. I don't have to try to edit a complaint from round 3 after round 29. More fun for me! Disadvnatages: Everyone has to be around to participate actively. |
| NiQil02-08-07, 10:54 PM | @ MitzaVolchenko: Tactics for Blizzard sent via PM @ TelinArtho: Tactics for Wildfire sent via PM |
| waywreth02-08-07, 11:07 PM | Dammit - Dice 2, Matthis 0. I'll be happy when he hits 5th level and there's no rolling to hit. Thanks for the run Rauul. |
| Zevox02-08-07, 11:26 PM | In any case, what we're arguing about is something the CoCo is designed to determine in the arena. :) So we'll probably not come to a conclusion just in a discussion thread. True enough, interesting as the discussion may be, its not going to get anywhere. But you have to admit balance is out of whack when 12th Wizard > (CR 10) Tiger > 12th Fighter when 12th Wizard is supposed to equal 12th Fighter and both of which are "supposed" to be stronger than a CR 10 Tiger. I would argue any ECL 12 ally except a straight Wizard or Psion is going to lose to that tiger, without equipment. And watch out if that tiger belongs to a wizard or druid capable of buffing it. *shrugs* Personally, I mostly blame it on the imbalance between casting classes and non-casting classes. Unless a caster is out of spells, they're nearly always better than purely physically focused characters. And many monsters that are purely physically focused can easily beat characters that are likewise (Fighter vs Hydra? Fighter vs Dinosaur? Fighter vs Kraken? Even a level 3 Fighter vs a Light Warhorse, as we've seen around here? Yeah, the list goes on and on). Pure warrior characters are just not that good on their own. (My point here being that this is a trend throughout the game, not just with our animal allies vs leadership allies.) And in any event, I'd say that any full casting class is going to make for a better ally than that Tiger anyway - so much more versatility. You could have a Druid cohort, for example, with a Dire Bat animal companion, that duplicates Aeryll Naladar's tactics as an archer/druid. Wait, so the non-epic feats from the epic handbook are okay, but the non-epic animals from the epic handbook aren't? And the epic skill section specifically states you don't need to be epic to use them, just have a high enough check to succeed. So what is the fundamental difference? Besides, we allow Unearthed Arcana, the Deities book and so forth, why shouldn't we allow stuff from the Epic handbook which is compatible with our level range? Actually, unless I'm missing something here, the skill section does not state any such thing (which would be why I'd say its open to debate whether its allowed, as opposed to the feats, which do state specifically that they are non-epic and available to any non-epic character or creature that qualifies). Which is one of the reasons I'm not comfortable with the epic monster with a non-epic CR being allowed here - its clearly more powerful than nigh anything else at its CR, if only because of that insane hp, so why allow it among non-epic creatures? Zevox |
| Rauul02-08-07, 11:26 PM | Dammit - Dice 2, Matthis 0. I'll be happy when he hits 5th level and there's no rolling to hit. Thanks for the run Rauul. No problem, sorry for the bad dice.. the fight is here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11419525&postcount=552) Sorry for posting late here... the boards don't like me |
| Ravashack02-09-07, 01:14 AM | YAY! Wow, am I GLAD that I befriended Hope!! I would like to submit something that matters not at all for this fight, but might in the future. Strength of my Enemy deals ability damage, and damage is tripled on a critical hit. So a crit with a x3 bow gains Hood THREE STRENGTH. Right? Oh. And how do megaraptors do their neat little leap attack when there are only 10' ceilings in the sewers? They can't charge through sludge, and so they have to jump, but they can't jump, becuase their heads already brush the ceiling... TM Ability damage should be separate from damage. Otherwise that would mean Offensive Prescience would apply to Ego Whip because it applies to *damage* rolls. Are you really willing to allow 1d4+3 or 1d4+4 Cha damage Ego Whips for 3 PP? |
| TheMagister02-09-07, 01:45 AM | I don't think that one has anything to do with the other. Offensive Prescience allows you to "better aim blows at your opponent". Ego Whip isn't a melee or ranged attack. It isn't even a ray (I think rays should benefit from Offensive Prescience). Strength of my Enemy grants a chosen weapon a new type of damage. Damage is always multiplied on a critical hit. "One of your...weapons...deals 1 point of Strength damage on each successful hit." Even in the Monster Manual: "Ability Score Loss: Some attacks reduce the opponent's score in one or more abilites. This loss can be temporary (ability damage) or permanent (ability drain). Ability Damage: This attack damages an opponent's ability score. The creature's descriptive text gives the ability and the amount of damage. If an attack that causes ability damage scores a critical hit, it deals twice the indicated amount of damage (if the damage is expressed as a dice range, roll two dice). Ability damage returns at the rate of 1 point per day for each affected ability." Now, the "deals twice the indicated amount of damage" statement should easily be interpreted as a reference to natural weapons, like a vampire's slam attack or a shadow's touch. Such natural weapons always only deal x2 on a crit. A weapon that deals ability damage would get its normal crit multiplier. TM |
| Ravashack02-09-07, 02:06 AM | OK, that's better. With what you had before, your argument was heavily implying that everything that applies to damage should apply to ability damage as well. Strength of my Enemy deals ability damage, and damage is tripled on a critical hit. So a crit with a x3 bow gains Hood THREE STRENGTH. Right? And I brought it up because I HAVE had people who didn't look at Perius's powers carefully to suggest I do that on team fights, as Offensive Prescience does not state anything about the damage rolls being limited to anything. |
| hogarth02-09-07, 08:34 AM | Wait, so the non-epic feats from the epic handbook are okay, but the non-epic animals from the epic handbook aren't? And the epic skill section specifically states you don't need to be epic to use them, just have a high enough check to succeed. So what is the fundamental difference? Besides, we allow Unearthed Arcana, the Deities book and so forth, why shouldn't we allow stuff from the Epic handbook which is compatible with our level range? Actually, unless I'm missing something here, the skill section does not state any such thing (which would be why I'd say its open to debate whether its allowed, as opposed to the feats, which do state specifically that they are non-epic and available to any non-epic character or creature that qualifies). You misattributed the above quote to me. It was still Hirumajoe speaking there. Coincidentally, I once asked whether epic feats are available for Handle Animal allies (like an advanced tyrannosaur or a legendary animal). I think the general response was "possibly, but the idea is unpalatable". |
| Macbrea02-09-07, 09:09 AM | You do not apply additional dice to a crit. But what you do need to do is apply the based damage plus adders rolled multiple times. Example: Rogue 5/Psychic warrior 4 fires Long Composite (str +4) Bow +2 as a sneak attack and crits using Offensive Prescience and Strength of my Enemy. If he crits the damage would look like: Base hit: 1d8 + 8 + (1 str damage) + 3d6 sneak attack Crit damage: 1d8 + 8 + (1 str damage) + 1d8 + 8 + (1 str damage) This is because of the following rule: Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results. Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage. Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied. So.. because the strength damage is damage and not a dice it is multiplied. |
| TelinArtho02-09-07, 10:10 AM | I have received tactics from all my players and given that the boards should be down in less than an hour for a short time - I expect that is the last you'll hear until I make some progress. Starting with the mess in the caverns and then will move on to the plains fight... |
| Hirumajoe02-09-07, 10:10 AM | Actually, unless I'm missing something here, the skill section does not state any such thing (which would be why I'd say its open to debate whether its allowed, as opposed to the feats, which do state specifically that they are non-epic and available to any non-epic character or creature that qualifies). Which is one of the reasons I'm not comfortable with the epic monster with a non-epic CR being allowed here - its clearly more powerful than nigh anything else at its CR, if only because of that insane hp, so why allow it among non-epic creatures? Zevox You're right, its not in the skill section. Its apparently in the 3.0 Epic level Handbook faq (I had remembered reading it somewhere...) Can a character who has not reached epic levels achieve the results listed for an epic level skill DC? For example, suppose my 10th-level wizard could achieve a Spellcraft result of 50 through some combination of ability bonuses and skill bonuses; could the character identify potions quickly? Yes. Anyone who can manage a sufficiently high skill check result can get an “epic” result. So I think the epic skill usages are at least on the same grounds as the non-epic feats from that book. And I'm pretty sure there's nothing preventing your DM from taking the CR 10 Legendary Tiger and throwing up against your Party of four ECL 10 characters. Or that Troll Were-Tyranasaurus. Edit: Just realized, were you not just arguing that an ECL 12 Wizard *without equipment* is stronger than a Legendary Tiger? Wouldn't that imply that an ECL 10 Wizard with 16,000 gp worth of equipment (say with a wand of 9th level MM, headband of intellect and an amulet of Health) would be on par in difficulty for that Legendary Tiger? |
| Sjiggie02-09-07, 10:38 AM | @ Rauul tactics for Anastria Korrik sent. I was in a hurry let's hope these tactics are sufficiënt |
| TelinArtho02-09-07, 02:34 PM | For the web spell, if the web is cast and then someone willingly moves into it - do they need to make a check to see if they get held fast (unable to move without a DC20 str check/DC25 escape artist check) - or can they just make the str/escape check moving 5ft per 5 points above DC10? From the looks of the spell - it appears to be the latter - can I get some confirmation of this? |
| MindWandererB02-09-07, 02:43 PM | I concur. The Reflex save only seems to apply to creatures that are within the area at the time the spell is cast. A creature that walks in later is instantly entangled, but not trapped, and must make the DC 15+ check to move through. |
| hogarth02-09-07, 03:04 PM | Telin, why are you making rolls for Reginald to move through webs when I specifically mentioned that he would burn webs away with his dorje? (Of course, I don't even know why he's moving around in the first place.) EDIT: Also note that Ghoul Touch only works on humanoids, not aberrations like Rubicanti. |
| TelinArtho02-09-07, 03:22 PM | Telin, why are you making rolls for Reginald to move through webs when I specifically mentioned that he would burn webs away with his dorje? (Of course, I don't even know why he's moving around in the first place.) Because I missed that one sentence in his tactics of course... I will adjust. EDIT: Also note that Ghoul Touch only works on humanoids, not aberrations like Rubicanti. That's rather unfortunate... and for that matter makes things a big pain. Don't trust the online roller - it is not always telling you the truth... |
| Maraxus02-09-07, 04:26 PM | Well, I trust the online roller for this: Durin: Initiative: Okay First Reflex save: Needed to roll a 7, get a 3 6 rounds tring to break free: Need a 17, get: 6, 11, 11, 4, 4, 4 Deep Slumber: Need to resist: 14, get: 10 Aaaand out! Is it to late to simply surrender? ;) Well, but I don't mind, I'm saving all my luck for a Miniquest at the end of the 3FC. :D PS: Hopefully, the rageing horses of the one that is supposed to kill me will save me from the spells of the one I am supposed to kill. They don't have Coup de grace on their list of tricks, so they might wake me up violently but alive. ... But then again, I'm only a 5th level dwarven fighte, what can I do against two grappling horses? ;) |
| TelinArtho02-09-07, 04:33 PM | Actually - the way things are going, Zodiac's spell will wear off before he even tries to kill you off... Trust me - things are not as they appear in the roller - this fight is more convoluted than [insert something convoluted here...] |
| Zevox02-09-07, 04:34 PM | They don't have Coup de grace on their list of tricks, so they might wake me up violently but alive. ... Eh, I don't think animals need CDG as a trick to do one. If they see an enemy totally helpless to resist a strike, why not take a moment to go for as powerful a blow as they can muster? Zevox |
| MindWandererB02-09-07, 04:40 PM | Less a powerful blow, more going for the throat, I would think. |
| hogarth02-09-07, 04:42 PM | Sorry for peeping at the on-line die roller, Telin, but I just want to make sure you realize that the Web spell provides cover, not concealment. |
| TelinArtho02-09-07, 04:53 PM | That's fine - I was mostly joking about not looking anyway - and thanks for pointing that out. Won't help you much, but at least I can fix it now... I do think its rather amusing that the only way Zodiac can win right now is if Reginald takes out Rubi for him... |
| hogarth02-09-07, 04:56 PM | I do think its rather amusing that the only way Zodiac can win right now is if Reginald takes out Rubi for him... I'm enjoying the idea of Reg, Rubi and Acererak locked in a deathgrip 10' above the cavern floor. :eek: |
| TelinArtho02-09-07, 05:10 PM | Well, that didn't happen since I realized that you had set up Acererak to block possible approaches - and that includes the jump attack I rolled... All in all, I don't feel I did Rubi justice in this fight - but there's not much he can do with the horses completely impeding his ability to even get to you. Well - with the horses and the ever annoying web... I'm just through to round 20, I think I'll post what I've got and continue with it later. I've already sent Vath a PM because I feel his tactics brought about how nasty this situation is. That said - it does occur to me that had he correctly ordered his spells - it wouldn't be any different since Rubi would've made his save anyway... I may not get back to the fight until Monday - but don't worry it will get finished... |
| Maraxus02-09-07, 06:07 PM | Hm, if the web starts to catch fire, does the fire really go out, after cleaning a 5ft section? I allways handled this the way that it burns with a speed of 5ft/round outwards from the point where it gets flammed up. Well, this would have been my other hope for escaping... If horses identify and attack human's weak points and specificly aim for them, or simply go on with their normal attack routine ... I really don't know. ;) |
| TheMagister02-09-07, 07:08 PM | Telin, I recognize all the work you've put into the fight so far, but I have some very important questions. In round 12, Reginald's ready action triggers and he manifests an offensive power on Rubicanti. This makes him visible. Rubicanti still has lots of Hide from Animals left. Why on earth would Rubicanti break his hide from animals buff to fight the psicrystal when he could EASILY bypass the entangled animals to attack Reg?! Please note that with Skate up, Rubicanti's jump modifier is +15. Pretty easy to make a standing high jump of 3' (DC 9), which is all Rubi could need with his 8' vertical reach for being medium. If Rubi can reach his foot, he can start a grapple. Since Reggie can hold up to 500 lbs. with his levitate, I don't see a problem with Rubicanti just climbin' up Reggie and grappling him to death while they're 15' up in the air. Concentration, baby! Let's see how long you can make that DC 20 check with a +8 modifier! (Related question: Matter Agitation specifies that Matter Agitation can only target the structure of a non-psionic, nonmagical object. Rubicanti is an Elan, and as such is a psionic creature. Wouldn't that make him immune?) Also, Protection from Evil and Cover from Webs give Rubicanti some serious AC mods vs. those Acid Orbs (a psicrystal is the same alignment as its master, right?) Rubi can just move through Nosrna's space if that's a problem (medium vs. diminuative = difference of 3 size categories) so there's NO reason to stay and fight the rock. There's even LESS of a reason because it would only alert the horses to Rubi's presence, and that's specifically mentioned as being something that Rubi doesn't want to do. Finally, why would Rubicanti stay in the webs and fight when he's not actually stuck there? It would be better to take AoOs to move out than to stay and fight while entangled, a condition which harbors mega penalties to Rubi's dex-based fighting style. I noticed this statement that you made: All in all, I don't feel I did Rubi justice in this fight - but there's not much he can do with the horses completely impeding his ability to even get to you. Well - with the horses and the ever annoying web... Thanks for that...if it wasn't for that statement I'd be highly perturbed right now. Still, the question remains: how could the horses know that Rubicanti is even there if Hide from Animals is still active, and Rubi doesn't choose to waste his time with Nosrna? |
| MindWandererB02-09-07, 07:34 PM | (Related question: Matter Agitation specifies that Matter Agitation can only target the structure of a non-psionic, nonmagical object. Rubicanti is an Elan, and as such is a psionic creature. Wouldn't that make him immune?)Although the phrasing is confusing, this refers to the psionic equivalent of a magic item. A psionic-subtype creature doesn't radiate magic/psionics in response to a Detect spell/power, for instance. |
| Vathelokai02-10-07, 12:09 AM | @Telin: Response sent. Wow. What a mess I created. Just, wow. One of these days I'll get it in my head which races the humanoids are. |
| Macbrea02-10-07, 10:15 AM | Although the phrasing is confusing, this refers to the psionic equivalent of a magic item. A psionic-subtype creature doesn't radiate magic/psionics in response to a Detect spell/power, for instance. Actually... to quote 'Detect Psionics': Characters who have levels in a psionic class, creatures with the psionic subtype, and creatures with the Wild Talent feat possess psionic auras. So.. yes, Elan's show up with detect psionics. |
| Eluria02-10-07, 12:35 PM | No problem, sorry for the bad dice.. the fight is here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11419525&postcount=552) Thanks for pitlording, and thank you for the hot dice! |
| MindWandererB02-10-07, 03:31 PM | Actually... to quote 'Detect Psionics': Characters who have levels in a psionic class, creatures with the psionic subtype, and creatures with the Wild Talent feat possess psionic auras. So.. yes, Elan's show up with detect psionics. You know, I was even looking for that, and I missed it. So... creatures with the psionic subtype (which includes anyone with any PP reserve) do radiate psionics. Which means Detect Magic would pick them up, too. So they do resemble magic items, in a sense. On the other hand, the chart doesn't have an entry for the strength of creatures' auras, only those of powers and items. Regardless, I think the extensions of this reasoning would go far beyond the intent of the rule. For instance, if psionic characters were targeted by a Dispel Magic, this reasoning would say that the character's psionic abilities are suppressed for 1d4 rounds. But what would the ML check be against a character with Wild Talent? In other words, I don't think this is what they meant. Matter Agitation should work on creatures, or on nonmagical items. |
| Rauul02-11-07, 02:04 AM | Ok it's done.. Well fought battle.. bad and good dice.. (your normal ECL 3 Melee battle) View it here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11419777&postcount=553).. |
| Rauul02-11-07, 02:15 AM | You know, I was even looking for that, and I missed it. So... creatures with the psionic subtype (which includes anyone with any PP reserve) do radiate psionics. Which means Detect Magic would pick them up, too. So they do resemble magic items, in a sense. On the other hand, the chart doesn't have an entry for the strength of creatures' auras, only those of powers and items. Regardless, I think the extensions of this reasoning would go far beyond the intent of the rule. For instance, if psionic characters were targeted by a Dispel Magic, this reasoning would say that the character's psionic abilities are suppressed for 1d4 rounds. But what would the ML check be against a character with Wild Talent? In other words, I don't think this is what they meant. Matter Agitation should work on creatures, or on nonmagical items. Acually... to Quote matter Agitation.. You can excite the structure of a nonpsionic, nonmagical object, heating it to the point of combustion over time. The agitation grows more intense in the second and third rounds after you manifest the power, as described below. to me this seems logical as it is a level 1 power used to get rid of non magical and non psionic objects, it's a level 1 power that is basicly designed to be annoying, and shouldn't work on EVERYTHING, So it shouldn't work on Psionic races, clerics, mages, classes with psi/magical abilitys.. Should work on a normal Fighter, a dog, an orc, a weapon, a Door, or the Robes/cloths on an creature it dosen't normally effect (it's effecting the cloths not the creature) Damage caused to an Elan while holding a heating weapon is still damage (as it is effecting the weapon not the creature) only a fool holds on the hot end of a red hot poker.. |
| Ravashack02-11-07, 02:23 AM | You know, just because a creature may be psionic/magical doesn't mean its gear is. :P Unless of course suddenly being nude except for the armor you're wearing becomes the rule, but that's got to feel awkward... |
| Etiquette_Gnome02-11-07, 04:20 AM | If you want an Elan (psionic creature) to be immune to Matter Agitation, it's only logical for them to be vulnerable to Dispel Psionics/Magic. |
| Rauul02-11-07, 08:19 AM | If you want an Elan (psionic creature) to be immune to Matter Agitation, it's only logical for them to be vulnerable to Dispel Psionics/Magic. Yes, that would be logical except for one little problem.. You can use dispel psionics to end ongoing powers that have been manifested on a creature or object, to temporarily suppress the psionic abilities of a psionic item, or to end ongoing powers (or at least their effects) within an area. A dispelled power ends as if its duration had expired. Some powers, as detailed in their descriptions, can’t be defeated by dispel psionics, or can be ended only if you manifest dispel psionics at a high enough manifester level. Dispel psionics can end spell-like effects just as it does powers. your talking Apples and Pears here.. One level 1 power effects nonpsionic things.. the level 3 power effects all psionic Powers and effects... As a Dm i would rule you can hit the Elan with it, since it causes no damage then it has the Instantaneous effect of knocking down any pre buffs they have up.. (if you make your roll) and would cause no damage other than keep the Elan from rebuffing.. Since there is No Damage or Effect when used against a Psionic person, listed in the Power Description.. It has no effect other than to take down Buffs.. |
| Etiquette_Gnome02-11-07, 08:49 AM | Fight for Rauul vs. Mask Man completed, and can be found HERE I'm looking at the fight now, and realizing I could've had Rauul redraw his wand at round 21 (7hp is cutting it close), and am willing to scrap the future rounds to pick it back up from there if you want me to. And in response to the psionic thingie, I do know what I'm talking about, and it isn't fruit (unless it's weird, psychic fruit). ...to temporarily suppress the psionic abilities of a psionic item... Since you're trying to use the part of the power that targets a "nonpsionic, nonmagical item", I think it's a viable argument. |
| Zevox02-11-07, 09:19 AM | Ok it's done.. Well fought battle.. bad and good dice.. (your normal ECL 3 Melee battle) View it here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11419777&postcount=553).. Um, the post still says its being run. I think you must've had some error updating it. Zevox |
| hogarth02-11-07, 09:46 AM | (I thought I posted this already, but I guess not.) My take on Matter Agitation: if you're using it on an object, it must be a non-magic, non-psionic object. If you're using it on a creature, it doesn't specify anything in particular. If Rubicanti is an object, what's his break DC? :D |
| Abyssal Stalker02-11-07, 10:31 AM | You posted it in the Discussion-thread... |
| Rauul02-11-07, 10:38 AM | Um, the post still says its being run. I think you must've had some error updating it. Zevox SCREAMS ok well that sucks... damn boards... will rerun it tonight since it didn't save.. all the dice rolls are there tho.. just have to remap it.. |
| Rauul02-11-07, 10:53 AM | Fight for Rauul vs. Mask Man completed, and can be found HERE I'm looking at the fight now, and realizing I could've had Rauul redraw his wand at round 21 (7hp is cutting it close), and am willing to scrap the future rounds to pick it back up from there if you want me to. And in response to the psionic thingie, I do know what I'm talking about, and it isn't fruit (unless it's weird, psychic fruit). Since you're trying to use the part of the power that targets a "nonpsionic, nonmagical item", I think it's a viable argument. I do have a Question.. Rd 8 Rauul had the masked had him at 2 hp's.. then on rd 9 he was at 8 (no indication he healed anything).. if this is the case.. Then in rd 23 the 5 damage would of taken him down.. |
| Milov02-11-07, 11:20 AM | I noticed that as well... What happened there? |
| MindWandererB02-11-07, 02:37 PM | your talking Apples and Pears here.. One level 1 power effects nonpsionic things.. the level 3 power effects all psionic Powers and effects... And items. If you're arguing that Elans are considered magic items, and thus immune to Matter Agitation, then their magical properties (i.e. their psionics) could be suppressed for 1d4 rounds with a targeted dispel. Also, clerics and mages are not magical. They do not radiate in response to Detect Magic. There's no argument whether they would be affected. |
| MindWandererB02-11-07, 02:42 PM | MWB this is the second week in a row where Besthirah won by default. I noticed you didn't include last week's surrender in the character history, and thus never received the rewards. I commend you on the moral grounds of that honorable omission. It should also be noted that I think omissions like this are technically illegal, although I won't be reporting you to the prison for it.Actually, I guess Cat never updated you. After I told him that I was okay with this, the omission became official. Note that Besthirah's win/loss record does not include that fight, either, nor does her powerrating. However, the compliment is accepted and appreciated, since Cat would not have honored Mitza's request without my approval. Honestly, I just feel sorry about the whole mess. (Although I'll take the win for Kervan--it takes him out of the Failure zone.) |
| Etiquette_Gnome02-11-07, 10:50 PM | The area is filled with flashing lights, red and blue. Two men stand surrounded by yellow tape strewn across the scene as grim reminder to all law-abiding citizens. "Yeah, when that face met the palm, that was a collision with no turning back." The men shake their head somberly, their coffee turning cold. Sorry about that guys, completely my fault and something I should've noticed before. The results have been turned around, and I apologize. |
| Vathelokai02-11-07, 11:39 PM | Actually, I guess Cat never updated you. After I told him that I was okay with this, the omission became official. Note that Besthirah's win/loss record does not include that fight, either, nor does her powerrating. However, the compliment is accepted and appreciated, since Cat would not have honored Mitza's request without my approval. Honestly, I just feel sorry about the whole mess. (Although I'll take the win for Kervan--it takes him out of the Failure zone.) I had a thought about that. Should the power ratings of characters be effected by Surrenders? I mean surrenders before the fight; not surrenders after running out of arrows or something. |
| MindWandererB02-12-07, 02:00 AM | There's nothing "special" about a surrender. It's just when one character's tactics consist of "I don't want to try to win." As such, there's officially no difference between a surrender and a loss. I think if powerratings are not affected, there is potential for abuse. For instance, when Denshi surrendered to Besthirah, it was because Vath didn't think he could win. Why should his powerrating suffer? A character could theoretically get Great Renown by surrendering any fights in which the player doesn't like his odds. It doesn't mean they're good, it just means the player is a good bettor. Worst-case scenario: I create a melee monster. Absolute beast in melee, no better than mediocre at ranged, useless against a spellcaster. Not hard to do. I surrender to everyone that isn't another melee build. My powerrating shoots through the roof even though I lose most of my fights. Or the other way around: I play an enchanter, and surrender to anyone with a Will save of a certain level, and maybe to elves as well (if I'm relying on Sleep). Or I play a mounted archer, and surrender to anyone fast enough to catch me, or in an arena I don't like. Etcetera. |
| TelinArtho02-12-07, 10:57 AM | Lets see... round 3: Zodiacs web scroll only has 2 webs on it, so one of these three webs does not exist. Well, that screws the pooch now doesn't it. Okay - let's see the other comments: Hm, if the web starts to catch fire, does the fire really go out, after cleaning a 5ft section? I allways handled this the way that it burns with a speed of 5ft/round outwards from the point where it gets flammed up. Well, this is certainly up for debate - but at the same time is a non-issue at the moment since the 3rd web (the one which Reginald burns) doesn't exist per the above comment... In round 12, Reginald's ready action triggers and he manifests an offensive power on Rubicanti. This makes him visible. Rubicanti still has lots of Hide from Animals left. Why on earth would Rubicanti break his hide from animals buff to fight the psicrystal when he could EASILY bypass the entangled animals to attack Reg?! Please note that with Skate up, Rubicanti's jump modifier is +15. Pretty easy to make a standing high jump of 3' (DC 9), which is all Rubi could need with his 8' vertical reach for being medium. If Rubi can reach his foot, he can start a grapple. Since Reggie can hold up to 500 lbs. with his levitate, I don't see a problem with Rubicanti just climbin' up Reggie and grappling him to death while they're 15' up in the air. Concentration, baby! Let's see how long you can make that DC 20 check with a +8 modifier! Actually, in round 13 is when Rubi break's his hide from animals buff, and here's why: http://www.hwx.it/coco/coco.php;v=1;map=cavern;a=blac,L,21,10;b =acer,L,24,7;c=regi,M,25,6;d=nosn,D,22,1 0;e=Rubi,M,22,11 Note that Nosnra is actually in (21,10), and Acerak is actually at (25,6) but can't be put there because of the way the map is. In order for Rubi to "EASILY bypass" the entangled animals (which they weren't entangled since Reginald had already burned away the webs in those areas, and further won't be entangled in the continued effort I put in today due to the first comment), Rubi has to tumble through their squares. Even though Rubi has a decent tumble check, I would not consider a +11 vs a DC25 check easy. Bear in mind as well that in the first run of this - you are entangled so that is -2 for your lowered dex and don't forget the situational modifier to penalize Tumble due to the terrain (which is very difficult due to the webs). Next, Hide from Animals ends when you make an offensive action at all or even when you touch an animal (even by accident). I told you last week that tumbling through an animal's square would result in an accidental touching - and my view on that hasn't changed. Now, with the edit for the web, I will happily make that tumble check for you. Be aware that your hide from animals will certainly expire from the effort - succeed or fail on the tumble. On to the jump, this is certainly up for debate, but I made a ruling a while back about jump attacks that seemed well received at the time (as in - no one disputed me on it), and I would run the fight accordingly here. 1. In order to reach someone who is 5ft too high for you normally - you have to jump a full 5ft up in order to attack them (yes - even for a touch to grapple). This is more to prevent an abuse of the "general" description of an expanded half-giant to huge size who is actually taller than most gargantuan creatures..., but it is also to make sure that things are consistent within the combat. The reasoning for my ruling at the time was that while you may be able to reach that high with full extension, you can't make a reasonable attack with full extension. 2. A five foot high jump has a DC of 20 - but if it doesn't have a running start - note that the DC is doubled - so that's really DC40. 3. Jumping while in front of the other horse will provoke, since you are moving out of a threatened area. Also, Protection from Evil and Cover from Webs give Rubicanti some serious AC mods vs. those Acid Orbs (a psicrystal is the same alignment as its master, right?) Quite right - and I had factored the cover in when it made the difference, but I see I did miss the Prot. from Evil. Regardless - with the change from the first comment, this will change things anyway. Lastly, as to the matter about matter agitation - you'll have to get that ruled after the fight. Hair doesn't seem too psionic to me, but Reginald could have just as easily chosen a piece of clothing which would have had the same effect regardless. Okay - heading back into my hole to work on the fight... wish me luck - back to round 3! |
| hogarth02-12-07, 11:38 AM | On to the jump, this is certainly up for debate, but I made a ruling a while back about jump attacks that seemed well received at the time (as in - no one disputed me on it), and I would run the fight accordingly here. 1. In order to reach someone who is 5ft too high for you normally - you have to jump a full 5ft up in order to attack them (yes - even for a touch to grapple). This is more to prevent an abuse of the "general" description of an expanded half-giant to huge size who is actually taller than most gargantuan creatures..., but it is also to make sure that things are consistent within the combat. The reasoning for my ruling at the time was that while you may be able to reach that high with full extension, you can't make a reasonable attack with full extension. As far as the attitude that "all Small and Medium creatures take up a 5'x5'x5' cube, and that's all she wrote, world without end, amen", I'm not crazy about it, but at least it's consistent. I've had this come up twice before with Telin: Reginald had a fight with one of Telin's summoners on the cavern map. Reg was levitating (same as he is now) and I argued that it would be almost impossible for a Small celestial dog to attack him because of a Small quadruped's 2' vertical reach. Telin and MWB contended that all Small creatures threaten the square directly above them, no matter how short the creature -- apparently a Small viper can balance itself on the tip of its tail to bite an enemy 5' above. Just last week, Treetall Oakleg wanted to use Wild Shape to turn into a Small octopus or viper to get improved cover from the water in the sewers; 1 foot of water is presumably "chest deep" for an octopus or viper, I figured, and I know how much TM loves fighting underwater opponents. :D Again, Telin said "no" -- only creatures that occupy less than a 5'x5'x5' cube can get [improved] cover in the sewers. In the end, however, I'd rather have an "unrealistic" ruling that consistently stops arguments than a "realistic" ruling that consistently starts arguments. (E.g. "My half-giant is so tall that he can do <insert action here> even though he's only size Medium.") |
| Pitlords02-12-07, 12:01 PM | What I expected to become a honorable duel between two frozen characters who just wanted to fight again turned out to be a backdoor method to enter week 3 of their cycle without having used anything in the previous two weeks, thus gaining a considerable edge in the upcoming Iron Man. I don't blame you guys for trying that. Asides from this being a trick that I wouldn't have allowed anyway, you should know that all characters in the Iron Man will be reset to Week 1 to be on par with everyone else. Thanks for the challenge credits though. |
| Vathelokai02-12-07, 12:45 PM | What I expected to become a honorable duel between two frozen characters who just wanted to fight again turned out to be a backdoor method to enter week 3 of their cycle without having used anything in the previous two weeks, thus gaining a considerable edge in the upcoming Iron Man. I don't blame you guys for trying that. Asides from this being a trick that I wouldn't have allowed anyway, you should know that all characters in the Iron Man will be reset to Week 1 to be on par with everyone else. Thanks for the challenge credits though. Absolutely not. Denshi has no intent to participate in the iron man. As for auburn, she just wanted to craft before the iron man. |
| TheMagister02-12-07, 01:27 PM | Sent to Telin by PM: And the alpha and omega of this battle. I would like to make one attempt to change your mind on the tumble check thing. One thing: 1) Moving through the space of a creature that cannot detect you should be pretty easy. A horse doesn't actually fill every foot of its 10' space, and it can't move to block when it has no inkling of an opponent's progress. Looking it up in the PHB, I find that I can't move through an opponent's space unless he's helpless (dead, unconscious, paralyzed, bound, or the like). While Acerak isn't helpless, he's the next thing to it (can't see, hear, or smell his enemy, and isn't smart enough to know why). Maybe a circumstance bonus to the tumble check? TM 2nd PM: Looking over the text of hide from animals: "Animals simply act as though the warded creatures are not there." I don't see how it's impossible to move through his space if Rubi is completely not there. Okay. I'm done. TM |
| Maraxus02-12-07, 02:54 PM | Izumi vs. Toron & Anakala is done. That was an interesting fight. :) |
| MindWandererB02-12-07, 03:02 PM | Izumi vs. Toron & Anakala is done. That was an interesting fight. :) Sorry, Maraxus, that doesn't work. If Izumi is pinned, she's pinned until Toron's next round unless she breaks it. Without multiple attacks, you can't break a pin and attack at all; you're stuck unless your opponent fails to maintain the pin. Not that it matters. |
| Maraxus02-12-07, 03:10 PM | If the pin last only one round (untill just befor the pinners next action) you should be able to ready an attack on the pin ending - or why shouldn't you? Drawback: You will be immoblized the whole round without chance to break it. ...At least, this is the way it was explained to me, when I tried to find out, if a pin really lasts only one round, some while ago. |
| MindWandererB02-12-07, 03:17 PM | Hmm. That's an interesting strategy. I'm not quite sure that works--the instant the pin ends is the same instant the pinner has a chance to renew it. I'm not sure there's any "gap" to take advantage of. |
| Macbrea02-12-07, 03:25 PM | My comment by the way is don't expend focus until swinging to kill was to warn you not to expend focus with an admantine kusuri-gama in an attempt to sunder someones weapon. I have had pitlords decide that izumi really needs that extra oomph to break that wooden stick. Now, for the problem with the fight. My attack on round 5 should be moved upto being an AoO during round 4 when Toron charges Izumi past a 10ft reach weapon. This will result in him being brought to 0 hps just before finishing up his charge. Which will drop him to -1 hps. |
| TelinArtho02-12-07, 03:27 PM | Well regardless, I am fine with that interpretation. Thanks for the run Maraxus. In other news, I've posted the current run of the monster fight... I mean hunter fight. Without the third web, quite a few things changed. @TM - you will definitely still need to make tumbling checks to get past the horse, since you'd be moving through his area. If you want to appeal it - I guess you should seek points from the other elders who are around. I've now put about 14 hours into the fight - but I'll add on rewards shortly... And unfortunately my other fight will probably be put off until tomorrow, depending on my mood... |
| TelinArtho02-12-07, 03:28 PM | My comment by the way is don't expend focus until swinging to kill was to warn you not to expend focus with an admantine kusuri-gama in an attempt to sunder someones weapon. I have had pitlords decide that izumi really needs that extra oomph to break that wooden stick. Now, for the problem with the fight. My attack on round 5 should be moved upto being an AoO during round 4 when Toron charges Izumi past a 10ft reach weapon. This will result in him being brought to 0 hps just before finishing up his charge. Which will drop him to -1 hps. Except that Toron is large size and therefore doesn't base you with the charge... |
| Maraxus02-12-07, 03:28 PM | What I expected to become a honorable duel between two frozen characters who just wanted to fight again turned out to be a backdoor method to enter week 3 of their cycle without having used anything in the previous two weeks, thus gaining a considerable edge in the upcoming Iron Man. I don't blame you guys for trying that. Asides from this being a trick that I wouldn't have allowed anyway, you should know that all characters in the Iron Man will be reset to Week 1 to be on par with everyone else. Thanks for the challenge credits though. Hm, Noko is trying to come out of her week 3. :) Because I think it's ugly to be somewhere in between two fights and frozen. :) But she's a rogue anyway, so there is not much diffrence between her 3 fights. |
| Macbrea02-12-07, 03:28 PM | bah! Oh, well.. onward! |
| TheMagister02-12-07, 03:31 PM | @Telin - can you tell me why this wouldn't work in Round 12? http://www.hwx.it/coco/coco.php;v=1;map=cavern;a=Reg,M,26,6,Reg ;b=Rubi,M,21,6,22,7,26,7,Rubi;c=Acer,L,2 4,6,Acerak |
| TheMagister02-12-07, 03:35 PM | Well regardless, I am fine with that interpretation. Thanks for the run Maraxus. In other news, I've posted the current run of the monster fight... I mean hunter fight. Without the third web, quite a few things changed. @TM - you will definitely still need to make tumbling checks to get past the horse, since you'd be moving through his area. If you want to appeal it - I guess you should seek points from the other elders who are around. I've now put about 14 hours into the fight - but I'll add on rewards shortly... And unfortunately my other fight will probably be put off until tomorrow, depending on my mood... Arguing a point like that is just mean, in my opinion. You're just putting forth your vision of how Tumbling through something's space interacts with magic. That's your call, and what you're there for. I can try to appeal, but only to you. Anything else is bad sportsmanship, IMO. Now, if I feel that you ignored a good move in favor of a less advantageous one, then I'll speak up, because I'll feel that my character got shorted. No, I won't appeal the "tumbling through a creature's square auto-cancels hide from animals", even though I disagree with it. I respect your authority. :) TM |
| Maraxus02-12-07, 03:38 PM | About the Hunter fight: Hey, there I really had a 50:50 chance to survive the CDG. - And without any efforts so far, this would have been quite interesting ... through I would still be totally stuck in the web. :) But the save is just one more on the unlucky-line. And I can say, somewhat, this is only fair. ;) |
| TheMagister02-12-07, 03:42 PM | Any fight involving Durin and Rubicanti seems to involve a lot of natural 20s and natural 1s. It's getting old. |
| TelinArtho02-12-07, 03:50 PM | @Telin - can you tell me why this wouldn't work in Round 12? http://www.hwx.it/coco/coco.php;v=1;map=cavern;a=Reg,M,26,6,Reg ;b=Rubi,M,21,6,22,7,26,7,Rubi;c=Acer,L,2 4,6,Acerak That would work - except that Acerak is at 25,6, not 24,6. However, in that case, your tumble would be against DC15 and wouldn't knock you back (just get the AoO). Let me look again... sigh Oh - and my suggestion that you appeal to the other elders is simply to avoid me making an "executive" decision that the others don't agree with. I haven't seen anyone (not even another elder) comment on the matter - and since this came up last week as well - I figured opposing views on it would have come up by now. Also, my reluctance to change it is specifically tied to the fact that came up with me exactly last week with the same character and the same type of scenario - and I told you then that I didn't think it would work like that. To go again this week with the same character, same pitlord and same situation and expect a different result is not a good idea. I am perfectly fine with others speaking up about reasoning to allow the hide from animal tumble to go through unimpeded, go though with a concealment check, or what-have-you, but I want someone not involved to agree/disagree/present a reasoned argument. I've given my ruling about it, you have presented a well-reasoned counter-argument that is not enough for me to overturn it on its own. If you get support for it - especially other elders, I will look into it again. Frankly, having me reconsider it on my own won't get you very far since, as I said, I am already 14 hours into this fight... (and given that the majority of my fights run about 1 hour... I'm tired). |
| TheMagister02-12-07, 03:59 PM | That would work - except that Acerak is at 25,6, not 24,6. However, in that case, your tumble would be against DC15 and wouldn't knock you back (just get the AoO). Let me look again... sigh Oh - and my suggestion that you appeal to the other elders is simply to avoid me making an "executive" decision that the others don't agree with. I haven't seen anyone (not even another elder) comment on the matter - and since this came up last week as well - I figured opposing views on it would have come up by now. Also, my reluctance to change it is specifically tied to the fact that came up with me exactly last week with the same character and the same type of scenario - and I told you then that I didn't think it would work like that. To go again this week with the same character, same pitlord and same situation and expect a different result is not a good idea. I am perfectly fine with others speaking up about reasoning to allow the hide from animal tumble to go through unimpeded, go though with a concealment check, or what-have-you, but I want someone not involved to agree/disagree/present a reasoned argument. I've given my ruling about it, you have presented a well-reasoned counter-argument that is not enough for me to overturn it on its own. If you get support for it - especially other elders, I will look into it again. Frankly, having me reconsider it on my own won't get you very far since, as I said, I am already 14 hours into this fight... (and given that the majority of my fights run about 1 hour... I'm tired). Pitlords are there for exactly the reason that you just put forth, those hundreds of little "executive decisions". I respect the amount of work you've put into the fight, and heartily thank you for your effort. But I don't like losing to bad movement decisions when a solution is so readily obvious. If Reginald gets grappled, all kinds of bad stuff goes away. Thanks again for listening. TM |
| TelinArtho02-12-07, 04:09 PM | Actually, I just looked back over it to make the edit. Rubicanti's first attack roll is a modified 11, just shy of Reginald's touch AC of 12. So Rubicanti misses the grapple, and still gets hit by the grapple that round. That said - even had he gotten into the grapple, Acererak would've been able to join the grapple easily and while Blackrazor wouldn't have been able - his next two rolls were natural 20s - which spells bad news for Rubi... I'll be posting the rewards shortly. |
| TelinArtho02-12-07, 04:14 PM | @Maraxus - looks like the rewards for Ana are a little off (though I certainly wouldn't mind...): Anakata and Toron win. Toron get's 1500 xp 1600 gp, Anakata get's 1250 xp, 2666.6.6 gp I believe it should be 1325gp. |
| TheMagister02-12-07, 04:45 PM | Actually, I just looked back over it to make the edit. Rubicanti's first attack roll is a modified 11, just shy of Reginald's touch AC of 12. So Rubicanti misses the grapple, and still gets hit by the grapple that round. That said - even had he gotten into the grapple, Acererak would've been able to join the grapple easily and while Blackrazor wouldn't have been able - his next two rolls were natural 20s - which spells bad news for Rubi... I'll be posting the rewards shortly. Rubi's first unmodified attack roll (no entangle, remember?) is 1) in round 13 and 2) a 5+8(normal unarmed)+2(offensive precog) - (nothing)= 15. Acerak cannot join the grapple because he weighs more than 500 lbs (600 lbs - 100 lbs [rubicanti] = 500 lbs). If you can't move into your opponent's square, you can't grapple him. You can hurt him, but you can't grapple him. Those horses had better have to follow the same rules for attacking that high that Rubi had to deal with. They'll have to make STANDING HIGH JUMPS DC 20, just like Rubi. Horses don't jump straight up very well, just like elephants don't. They do great on the running high jumps, though they couldn't use their hooves, just a bite. That'd be something to see, wouldn't it? A horse doing a barrel-roll in midair, flailing with their hooves at an opponent 15' high. I just can't get the picture of a horse doing the rail jumping competitions that you see on TV, except trying to hit something at the peak of the jump. :rofl: |
| hogarth02-12-07, 04:51 PM | Those horses had better have to follow the same rules for attacking that high that Rubi had to deal with. They'll have to make STANDING HIGH JUMPS DC 20, just like Rubi. Horses are size Large, so they can attack the space immediately above them (according to CoCo rules). |
| TelinArtho02-12-07, 04:56 PM | Well - the horses don't need to jump because they are large creatures with a 5ft reach - ergo a vertical cross-section: - - - - - - - (Ceiling) . . . R . . . . . A A . . . . . A A . . . - - - - - - - (Floor) You are right about the attack roll though - my mistake. However, I see nothing in levitate that actually gives a weight limit on the levitate (only when levitate is performed on an object). Given Reginald's tactics though, levitating down - so the horse can join the grapple would certainly be in line. Still - let me make the rolls and see what comes of it... see you in a few hours... |
| Macbrea02-12-07, 04:57 PM | Has to add picture of Izumi back into character post.. as pitlords assume name is male.. http://home.earthlink.net/~macbrea/COCOMaps/IzumiMaid.jpg :P |
| TelinArtho02-12-07, 04:58 PM | Where's the spiked chain? |
| TheMagister02-12-07, 04:59 PM | Now find a picture of that gargantuan serrated kusari gama and put it next to her. If the whole "waitress" thing falls through she could always get a job at Helga's House of Pain. |
| TheMagister02-12-07, 05:01 PM | Well - the horses don't need to jump because they are large creatures with a 5ft reach - ergo a vertical cross-section: Fair enough. After this is all over, I want to talk about how a jumping character doesn't threaten the space around him while he's in the air, though. - - - - - - - (Ceiling) . . . R . . . . r r . . . . r . . . . . . - - - - - - - (Floor) |
| TelinArtho02-12-07, 05:04 PM | Heh - okay - maybe not a few hours. Rubicanti's tactic depended on making a grapple check at +3 versus his opponent's +0... final result: Rubicanti 7+3 = 10 Reginald 12+0 = 12 Grapple to hold fails. Fight has been updated. |
| TelinArtho02-12-07, 05:05 PM | Fair enough. After this is all over, I want to talk about how a jumping character doesn't threaten the space around him while he's in the air, though. - - - - - - - (Ceiling) . . . R . . . . r r . . . . r . . . . . . - - - - - - - (Floor) I'm sorry I don't understand when this was even an issue? |
| TheMagister02-12-07, 05:09 PM | I'm sorry I don't understand when this was even an issue? {shrug} Not an issue for this fight because Rubi made the jump check to get up to 20 ft. If he hadn't, then there'd be an issue. TM |
| TelinArtho02-12-07, 05:10 PM | {shrug} Not an issue for this fight because Rubi made the jump check to get up to 5 ft. If he hadn't, then there'd be an issue. TM Fixed. |
| TheMagister02-12-07, 05:28 PM | Thanks for being so easy to work with! Know that your work is appreciated. TM |
| Maraxus02-12-07, 06:22 PM | Has to add picture of Izumi back into character post.. as pitlords assume name is male.. http://home.earthlink.net/~macbrea/COCOMaps/IzumiMaid.jpg :P Wait, what? ... Hey, your character is a strength20-powerful-build hulking muscle-monster and you are female??? Urgs. ;) |
| Macbrea02-12-07, 11:54 PM | You obviously haven't watched enough anime.. To understand, physics doesn't apply to the little girl! |
| Iced02-13-07, 12:45 AM | My comment by the way is don't expend focus until swinging to kill was to warn you not to expend focus with an admantine kusuri-gama in an attempt to sunder someones weapon. I have had pitlords decide that izumi really needs that extra oomph to break that wooden stick. Now, for the problem with the fight. My attack on round 5 should be moved upto being an AoO during round 4 when Toron charges Izumi past a 10ft reach weapon. This will result in him being brought to 0 hps just before finishing up his charge. Which will drop him to -1 hps. +13 Tumble ;) |
| Zevox02-13-07, 12:58 AM | +13 Tumble ;) Of course, if you want to use that in a charge, you need to take the -10 for doing an accelerated tumble. Else you run into the "anything that slows your movement prevents a charge" rule. Zevox |
| Rauul02-13-07, 04:14 AM | Ok for the 3rd time... Anastria Korrik vs. Arden Tarmik ECL 3 is Done.. It can be viewed here... (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11419777&postcount=553) all flames to me.. all cussing to me.. all Praise to anyone but me.. |
| Sjiggie02-13-07, 04:34 AM | I praise you Rauul :p thanks for running the fight I can see no errors in it. I'm running Graashnak vs Tracey atm |
| Rauul02-13-07, 07:30 AM | I praise you Rauul :p thanks for running the fight I can see no errors in it. I'm running Graashnak vs Tracey atm Bah.. no praises...I lost the fight (boards went down, computer crashed, and i stepped on my surge protector) 3 times, reran the maps and everything.. 3rd time is a charm i guess... |
| Abyssal Stalker02-13-07, 07:32 AM | Saving the fight to your harddisk is a good way around that... |
| TheMagister02-13-07, 07:47 AM | Yeah, I run all my fights in MS Word (the clipboard is a Godsend, especially for keeping track of durations and such) and save them before I try posting them. YMMV. |
| Rauul02-13-07, 07:49 AM | Saving the fight to your harddisk is a good way around that... heheh ok i know now... just call me the N00b |
| Abyssal Stalker02-13-07, 07:52 AM | Trust me, I've had my share of disappeared fights. One is too much. |
| Zevox02-13-07, 08:40 AM | Ok for the 3rd time... Anastria Korrik vs. Arden Tarmik ECL 3 is Done.. It can be viewed here... (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11419777&postcount=553) all flames to me.. all cussing to me.. all Praise to anyone but me.. Wow, the dice Gods sure picked the winner of that one in a big way. Thanks for the un Rauul, and no worries, these things happen. Not like I've never lost a fight either. You know, I knew Arden was going to be bad at ECL 3, but after this week I think he might be even worse than I expected. Maybe a little tweaking and starting him back up at ECL 4 or 5 is in order. Hm... Zevox |
| orsono02-13-07, 09:49 AM | @MitzaVolchenko will you be running your last EL4 fight today? |
| TelinArtho02-13-07, 10:50 AM | Sybil ap Kalten (MitzaVolchenko) vs Wildfire (NiQil) is up. Ugly - but effective I guess. |
| Maraxus02-13-07, 02:46 PM | Damn, you need to make a climb check every move action? Arg, breaks my neck. And when a roof is 20 ft high, you can't simple climb 15 ft and drag yourself up the rest of the way? Arrg. (But okay, I should have known) Abyssal Stalker: However, one mistake has to be corrected, before you post, it is ready: Standing on grease without 5 ranks in Dex = loose Dex to AC = sneak attack. After this is done, you might want to consider the Zassl wanted to use Vampiric touches in between the mace attacks. |
| Sjiggie02-13-07, 02:51 PM | Graashnak vs Tracey is up here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11476341&postcount=566) Please check for errors made some improvisations on the tactics since the two where avoiding each other so that both tactics where ineffective. |
| Rauul02-13-07, 05:47 PM | Mitza is unable to connect to the boards with either her computer or mine.. So we know it isn't an IP problem. |
| NiQil02-13-07, 09:02 PM | Mitza is unable to connect to the boards with either her computer or mine.. So we know it isn't an IP problem. So I'm guessing that means that all of her fights will be held over? Or did she get them done and is just unable to post them? If they are finished, you could always post them, if you have access to them... As for her login issues, she should try creating a new wizards login entirely just to see if she can. |
| NiQil02-13-07, 09:03 PM | Sybil ap Kalten (MitzaVolchenko) vs Wildfire (NiQil) is up. Ugly - but effective I guess. Kinda what I expected...but at least I made it hurt in the pocketbook.... |
| MindWandererB02-13-07, 09:09 PM | Mitza has some of her fights done, but without access to her PM box, she won't be able to complete them all, especially not this late. Possibly, tactics could be IMed to her or something, but I don't know what her current status is. This is the second time her logins have gotten messed up, and the last time it took her months to get it fixed. |
| hogarth02-13-07, 09:49 PM | Unfortunately, I'm not going to have time to run Zwei und'Vierzig vs. Ceilia. I hope someone else can pick it up. The tactics are posted here. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11446260&postcount=559) I had enough free time this week to run a simple ECL 3 fight, so I thought I would be helping out if I specifically volunteered to run one. Unfortunately, my request was ignored and I was assigned a more difficult fight than I had time for. I guess I learned my lesson -- never volunteer for anything. :rolleyes: |
| NiQil02-13-07, 09:54 PM | Ick...with Mitza's all getting held over most likely, and that one...that makes 5 holdovers and one miniquest delayed...and Abyssal still has a fight out there somewhere (unless I missed it) I can all but guarantee a SoE will kick in tomorrow...that many holdovers along with our normal volume (which we can barely handle) is gonna cause us to get our third one... |
| Zevox02-13-07, 09:58 PM | Ick...with Mitza's all getting held over most likely, and that one...that makes 5 holdovers and one miniquest delayed...and Abyssal still has a fight out there somewhere (unless I missed it) I can all but guarantee a SoE will kick in tomorrow...that many holdovers along with our normal volume (which we can barely handle) is gonna cause us to get our third one... Yeah, no doubts there. Mitza was the only reason we weren't in one this week to begin with, so if her login troubles don't get resolved damn near instantly, we're in real deep. *sigh* Well, I guess I get to go deactivate all my characters except the two in held over fights... Zevox |
| MindWandererB02-13-07, 10:08 PM | And with everyone trying to scrounge up another level before the Iron Man, too. Ick. Guess I'll be minimizing my activations, too. |
| Iced02-14-07, 12:08 AM | If she can't get on next week i'll finish up the extended miniquest for her. |
| Vathelokai02-14-07, 12:54 AM | Auburn vs. Noko Sorry to put you through all that Mac, but.... :rofl: :evillaugh |
| Abyssal Stalker02-14-07, 01:25 AM | Damn, you need to make a climb check every move action? Arg, breaks my neck. And when a roof is 20 ft high, you can't simple climb 15 ft and drag yourself up the rest of the way? Arrg. (But okay, I should have known) Abyssal Stalker: However, one mistake has to be corrected, before you post, it is ready: Standing on grease without 5 ranks in Dex = loose Dex to AC = sneak attack. After this is done, you might want to consider the Zassl wanted to use Vampiric touches in between the mace attacks. Actually, the description of grease doesn't say that. It says you must make a balance check in order to move. If you don't move, succeeding in the reflex save is enough. I will finish the fight tonight, it just started killing me yesterday after 55 rounds of smiting dire boars with a small mace :rolleyes: (I'll use the vampiric touch, don't worry, now that you are down in 2hp (your tactics didn't ask it earlier). |
| Sindorin02-14-07, 01:25 AM | Has anyone heard from MitzaVolchenko? We started my miniquest and then it kind of fizzled. She had mentioned that she might have to hurry to finish it on time... I hope everything's okay... |
| Vathelokai02-14-07, 01:35 AM | Has anyone heard from MitzaVolchenko? We started my miniquest and then it kind of fizzled. She had mentioned that she might have to hurry to finish it on time... I hope everything's okay... She's having problems with her board account again. No one is really sure how long it will take her. |
| MindWandererB02-14-07, 01:42 AM | Actually, the description of grease doesn't say that. It says you must make a balance check in order to move. If you don't move, succeeding in the reflex save is enough.Hmm... interesting interpretation. But it seems you're right--no balance check is necessary if you don't move. I'll have to keep that in mind for Silis. Auburn vs. Noko Sorry to put you through all that Mac, but.... :rofl: :evillaughQuestion: How are the bats grappling? Auburn doesn't speak bat, so she can't instruct them to do anything but attack. Has anyone heard from MitzaVolchenko? We started my miniquest and then it kind of fizzled. She had mentioned that she might have to hurry to finish it on time... I hope everything's okay...Her account died for some reason. Unless she gets it fixed, like right now, her stuff will be held over. I'll keep an eye out from her on IM to see what her status is, but most likely her duties will be passed on to someone else next week. |
| jjones02-14-07, 03:16 AM | Question: How are the bats grappling? Auburn doesn't speak bat, so she can't instruct them to do anything but attack. Ya, gonna chime in with my .05 worth. If you can't speak the language of what you summon, they just attack to the best of their own ability. Not only that, but i think u actually need to see what you are attacking to direct them to attack. Otherwise, i'd hamper a guess that you're up for some serious handle animal rolls to give them directions. JJ |
| jjones02-14-07, 03:30 AM | oops...reposted in tavern |
| Abyssal Stalker02-14-07, 04:22 AM | Well, I think that grease is strong enough spell for it's level even with only the ref save every round. No need to make it even better. On the other hand, it's easy to argue if attacking is some kind of movement... |
| Maraxus02-14-07, 04:27 AM | Actually, the description of grease doesn't say that. It says you must make a balance check in order to move. If you don't move, succeeding in the reflex save is enough. I will finish the fight tonight, it just started killing me yesterday after 55 rounds of smiting dire boars with a small mace :rolleyes: (I'll use the vampiric touch, don't worry, now that you are down in 2hp (your tactics didn't ask it earlier). That's definitly wrong. I have my conviction from fact, that Grease refers to the balance skill and it works just like normal balancing. So unless you say that this part on being attacked while balancing only refers to readied attacks (which they would have stated, if this was so - I think), than you are wrong. Grease works just like naturally slippy surfaces and those make you loose Dex to AC. That has always been that way and that was that way when I wrote my tactics. PS: No, I don't think "The spell is strong enough that way" is a valid argument. |
| Abyssal Stalker02-14-07, 05:01 AM | Well, like I said, the part about balancing refers only to movement. And MWB agreed with my ruling, so I have at least one elder vote behind my reading of the rules. My logic is fairly reasonable, I think (and isn't anyway based on my opinion of relative strength of the spell): -You need to make a ref save every round. This is in the case you don't move. So basically you are standing, but your feet might still slip allthough you don't try to walk. -You need to make a balance check when moving. This is in the case you want to for example move away from the spell area. You have passed the ref save, and you are able to stand this round. Now you start carefully moving away, choosing your steps with great caution. In addition, then why doesn't the spell description say that the targets are considered balancing even when they don't move or that they would be denied their dex bonus to AC when inside the spell area? Usually spell descriptions mention these things. Only in that case my argument is wrong, if we decide that attacking requires you to move. Edit: Actually, this wouldn't even have an effect on the outcome of the fight, because Dire Boar's flat-footed AC is the same as their normal AC. |
| Maraxus02-14-07, 05:05 AM | Hm, okay, handle it as you wish. I'll bring it up to the courtroom, since it's always bad for a player not to know, by which rules the pitlord runs the fights. :( |
| hogarth02-14-07, 07:06 AM | That's definitly wrong. I have my conviction from fact, that Grease refers to the balance skill and it works just like normal balancing. Read the skill description. Balance checks are only necessary while moving. Check You can walk on a precarious surface. A successful check lets you move at half your speed along the surface for 1 round. A failure by 4 or less means you can’t move for 1 round. A failure by 5 or more means you fall. You could maybe make an argument that being damaged while on a slippery surface forces a Balance check, but I don't see any "standing still" Balance check. |
| Abyssal Stalker02-14-07, 07:29 AM | Or actually, "how the rules should be read?" :) As you might have noticed, I usually don't participate on rules arguments. But when I'm in doubt of something and have to make a rules call, I try to base my decision on the rules. Here I had to check the spell description and this is the way I understand it. I just wanted to tell you how I ended up in that decision, so that you would see that I have given a thought on this issue. If someone can point me that I'm wrong, then of course I will follow that better judgement. |
| TheMagister02-14-07, 07:47 AM | Read the skill description. Balance checks are only necessary while moving. You could maybe make an argument that being damaged while on a slippery surface forces a Balance check, but I don't see any "standing still" Balance check. Funny. I do. Check: You can walk on a precarious surface. A successful check lets you move at half your speed along the surface for 1 round. A failure by 4 or less means you can't move for 1 round. A failure by 5 or more means you fall. The difficulty varies by surface... Note that that "Balancing" condition persists for "1 round", not "1 action" or "your turn". Once you're in a situation that requires you to start balancing, you're balancing for the remainder of that round or until the situation ends or you leave the area of the situation. Saying that "balance checks are only necessary when moving" is misleading. If you decide to move but fail your balance check by 4 or less, are you suddenly not balancing? After all, you didn't move. More importantly, if you don't have 5 ranks in Balance, you're considered Flat-Footed while balancing. A look in the PHB glossary provides this information: A flat-footed creature loses its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity. Can a balancing character without 5 ranks in Balance even make regular attacks while flat-footed? Losing your Dex to AC and the ability to make AoOs tells me that a character is totally preoccupied with with staying upright, and cannot even move to avoid potentially fatal blows, much less swing effective blows of his own. So if a Platemail-wearing dwarf fighter (we'll call him "Bob") gets caught in the area of a grease spell as it is cast, he is forced to make a Reflex Saving throw. Bob is a dwarf, and so gets the +2 racial bonus on that save. It proves to be just enough to keep him upright. So there's Bob, standing in the middle of a grease spell. It's not his turn yet. Is Bob "balancing", yet? Can Bob still make AoOs? Does Bob have his Dex to AC? NO. Bob cannot swing his weapon, dodge blows, or even sneeze because he's flat-footed. The terrain in which he finds himself is treacherous, and he is forced to devote all his concentration to staying upright. George the monk, who (deplorably) didn't put any ranks into Balance, has a +5 Dex modifier. If George is caught in a grease spell, it is actually to his advantage to fall prone in the square he's in, so that he can retain his Dex to AC (X minus 5 < X+5-4). Of course, that wouldn't necessarily be the smart thing to do (I'd take my chances on rolling a 5 or better to move out of the AoE if I HAD to move), but it'd be better than standing there flat-footed. That's my view. |
| Abyssal Stalker02-14-07, 07:57 AM | Quote me the part that makes Bob flat-footed, if he doesn't move. You just said that if he moves, he has to balance and thus becomes flat-footed. But if he isn't moving, or hasn't moved in that round, he isn't balancing that round. He only needs to make that ref save. By your suggestion he would need to make a balance check (which he doesn't, as per the spell description), but instead he has to make a ref save. I can't follow your logic. The grease spell doesn't make creatures in it lose their dex bonus to AC. The only exception to this is in that case that they are moving and need to make a balance check and they don't have the required ranks. Standing in the area forces you to make a ref save or fall, nothing else as per the spell description. Balancing comes into question only when you start to move. |
| hogarth02-14-07, 08:33 AM | Note that that "Balancing" condition persists for "1 round", not "1 action" or "your turn". Once you're in a situation that requires you to start balancing, you're balancing for the remainder of that round or until the situation ends or you leave the area of the situation. I agree (sort of). But the key phrase in what you said is "requires you to start balancing". There's nothing in the skill description that says that standing in one spot requires you to start balancing. It's a reasonable house rule, but I don't see it in the skill description. Note that whether standing requires a Balance check or not, you end up with some silly situations. If you do need a Balance check, it means that a first-level human commoner can stand on a 1' wide stool for less than a minute before falling off (on average). If you don't need a Balance check, it means that once a first-level human commoner successfully balances himself on top of a 1 inch wide pole, he can stay balanced there indefinitely. |
| Macbrea02-14-07, 08:59 AM | Question: How are the bats grappling? Actually, I had the bat attack in the method that bats feed. This has nothing to do with the tactics sent to me. As what was really ordered in the tactic's was have them grapple and eat her. I try to stay as close to the true method of fighting as the animal that actually is presented. Even if that goes against the tactics. Let me quote a few random sources for you: The Daubenton's is also called the 'fishing or water bat' due to its feeding method of gleaning insects stuck on the surface of water. It doesn't do this with its mouth but with its huge feet using them like grappling hooks. Mexican long-tongues actually lick their target and are vegetarians. Not very appropriate for the Dire bat. Florida bats: Insects are captured with the mouth, wings and tail membrane. Which seems to wrap around the target and hold them in place. So, given those methods of fighting for a regular bat. I would assume that dire bats actually pin a small target with their weight and then try to bite them to death. I generally always play animals in the method that they fight. Large/small cats also grapple their targets and then rake them apart. In this particular case it probably isn't going to mean anything. They only last another 4 rounds and they have only done 5 damage total. |
| Vathelokai02-14-07, 09:30 AM | Question: How are the bats grappling? Auburn doesn't speak bat, so she can't instruct them to do anything but attack. Actually, Auburn is a gnome and has speak with animals 1/day. But that's moot because the bats have the fiendish template, and thus an intellegence above 2. Which is also moot, because summoned monster attack 'to the best of their ability'. Of course that last bit is debateable. |
| Macbrea02-14-07, 09:37 AM | I am going to make an odd suggestion. That being that no person can take more then 4/week fights. About once a month we have a situation where the person is unable to finsih the fights or something major happens to their connection, ect. This results in a bunch of fights getting held over. If the limit to fights for any pitlord was limited down to four fights maximum then the impact would be lessened for such a fact. Also, running that many fights I can guarrentee causes burn-out in pitlords. Yes, this means we might end up in a SoE but what the heck. We only have about 20 active members. A SoE every now and then isn't a bad thing. It motivates people to pitlord and not require any one member to do the majority of the work. Mitza, Iced, DSugui, and Haun have all grabbed max fights and not made the deadline for some reason or another. The impact always seems to be the same. We end up with a somewhat stressed pitlord and somewhat stressed Cat. |
| Maraxus02-14-07, 09:41 AM | I agree (sort of). But the key phrase in what you said is "requires you to start balancing". There's nothing in the skill description that says that standing in one spot requires you to start balancing. It's a reasonable house rule, but I don't see it in the skill description. Note that whether standing requires a Balance check or not, you end up with some silly situations. If you do need a Balance check, it means that a first-level human commoner can stand on a 1' wide stool for less than a minute before falling off (on average). If you don't need a Balance check, it means that once a first-level human commoner successfully balances himself on top of a 1 inch wide pole, he can stay balanced there indefinitely. I think it's without doubt, that the 1st level commoner can stand on the 1 inch wide pole indefinitely (or untill he falls asleep or something), that's without question. No checks to stand in place needed. However, he could not properly dodge out of the way of incomming attacks (unless uncanny dodge) or strike spontaneous attacks against opponents that let their guard down (unless combat reflexes), while standing on th pole. and they are very likely to fall down that pole if somebody beats them up. The problem is, that the skill description bravely uses the term "balancing" as if everybody knew, what balancing means. It's no game term ... jet. I say: New condition(C): Balancing: Standing on a narrow surface or difficultly uneven/slippy/... ground, the character is considered balancing. A balancing character with less then 5 ranks in the balance skill is flat-fooded. Furthermore, any character taking the move-action while balancing must make a balance check with a DC depending on the ground to move at 1/2 speed. Failure by 5 means he falls prone. Failure by less means he can not move. This is - as far as I see it - the most reasonable interpretation of what is RAW and RAI. It is not written, however, I'd add the reasonable house rule, that prone characters are not balancing at the same time. |
| jjones02-14-07, 09:45 AM | Actually, Auburn is a gnome and has speak with animals 1/day. But that's moot because the bats have the fiendish template, and thus an intellegence above 2. Which is also moot, because summoned monster attack 'to the best of their ability'. Of course that last bit is debateable. But my question is that since you cannot see your target, how do you direct them to attack him? My interpretation of the spell targeting rules would require you to at least have visual contact with your target in order to direct them (as per the spell description) to attack when they are summoned. Othewise you must be able to direct them to perform specific tasks. Don't get me wrong, i plan on summoning as well, and if this is how it's done here, then so be it. At least i'll have some advanced notice of how it operates. JJ |
| Macbrea02-14-07, 09:58 AM | Summoning spells summons a creature into being. They then follow all the rules to being a creature for the duration of their stay. You will also not that they are not required to stay within the range of the spell. That being 25ft+5ft/2levels= 45ft of Auburn. They are alllowed to travel outside of that range. Direbat's have the ability to pinpoint anyone within 40ft of them. So, a direbat flying down a hall will quickly sense someone within it's range. Since, round 1 of that fight both combatants made their listen check to hear the other opponent by at least 10. This means in the CoCo rules they are able to figure the persons location to a very small area. By 10-14: within 10'; randomize between 21 squares in 2d, 91 in 3d. | |*|*|*| | |*|*|*|*|*| |*|*|@|*|*| |*|*|*|*|*| | |*|*|*| | So, as in this particular case they knew generally where the other person was. So, directing the bats to within 40ft wasn't that difficult. |
| TelinArtho02-14-07, 09:59 AM | I'll try to get the fight that hogarth posted about done up. @MacBrea's comment - I could go both ways with that statement, but I am of the opinion that people should be able to declare for themselves what is "too much." I was running 6-7 fights once upon a time and having no trouble with it. The only reason why I stopped abruptly was because of real-life problems and I still managed to get things resolved. Still, having so many fights rely on a single person can be a little daunting when that person is not available - such as this situation where Mitza is unable to login. I would like to see more people step up to take on pitlording than to try to impose an absolute limit on the fights to take. At this point, having fights held over or having a state of emergency ends up with the same result - not as many fights being completed. All of this is rather unfortunate with my planned absence which will definitely put us into a SoE if we don't get one by then. Hopefully a few people will give pitlording a try and stick it out. |
| Abyssal Stalker02-14-07, 10:00 AM | I still think that the REF save 1/round covers what you are trying to describe with your newly-found condition. Otherwise there wouldn't be any need for that save. It would be a balance check. |
| TelinArtho02-14-07, 10:05 AM | Unfortunately, I'm not going to have time to run Zwei und'Vierzig vs. Ceilia. I hope someone else can pick it up. The tactics are posted here. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11446260&postcount=559) I had enough free time this week to run a simple ECL 3 fight, so I thought I would be helping out if I specifically volunteered to run one. Unfortunately, my request was ignored and I was assigned a more difficult fight than I had time for. I guess I learned my lesson -- never volunteer for anything. :rolleyes: I'm taking this fight up. @Zevox - just so you know (since it appears you didn't) - a dive only doubles damage for the one who is doing the diving. So while you do get the spirited charge multiplier - you don't get the added benefit of the dive as well since you are not the flier. Your mount would however. |
| TheMagister02-14-07, 10:15 AM | Quote me the part that makes Bob flat-footed, if he doesn't move. You just said that if he moves, he has to balance and thus becomes flat-footed. But if he isn't moving, or hasn't moved in that round, he isn't balancing that round. He only needs to make that ref save. By your suggestion he would need to make a balance check (which he doesn't, as per the spell description), but instead he has to make a ref save. I can't follow your logic. The grease spell doesn't make creatures in it lose their dex bonus to AC. The only exception to this is in that case that they are moving and need to make a balance check and they don't have the required ranks. Standing in the area forces you to make a ref save or fall, nothing else as per the spell description. Balancing comes into question only when you start to move. Action: None. A balance check doesn't require an action; it is made as part of another action or as a reaction to a situation. Being in the AoE of a grease spell is "a situation". Whether you're moving in your own space (such as would be required to dodge an attack or swing a weapon) or moving through the space, you are moving. Standing from prone is movement. It involves moving your feet and your hands while in contact with the area that is affected by the grease spell. Swinging a weapon is movement. It involves moving your feet and your hands just as standing from prone does. A standing high jump that originates from the AoE should be classified as movement, don't you agree? What if the Jump check is less than 20? "I didn't jump more than 5', therefore I didn't technically move?" Bollocks. A grease spell is a situation that requires a balance check of affected creatures. |
| Zevox02-14-07, 11:02 AM | I'm taking this fight up. @Zevox - just so you know (since it appears you didn't) - a dive only doubles damage for the one who is doing the diving. So while you do get the spirited charge multiplier - you don't get the added benefit of the dive as well since you are not the flier. Your mount would however. *blinks* Um, okay I suppose. I can't find that in the rules, and figured it would be logical that since I can get extra damage out of a normal charge while mounted a dive would work too, but so be it. 'Twould be nice to know where this rule can be found though. Zevox |
| Macbrea02-14-07, 11:09 AM | Hmm, dive isn't actually a charge. It's like a charge. It could be ruled to be a charge. But it currently says, 'A creature that flies can make dive attacks. A dive attack works just like a charge, but the diving creature must move a minimum of 30 feet and descend at least 10 feet. ' Which means it could be a charge if the gamemaster decided it actually is a charge. But isn't exactly one. |
| Zevox02-14-07, 11:15 AM | Which means it could be a charge if the gamemaster decided it actually is a charge. But isn't exactly one. It says it works just like a charge, so why shouldn't it be treated as one? If it does work just like one, which is exactly what that rule says, then spirited charge or doubled lance damage from a mounted charge works with it like with a normal charge. Zevox |
| TelinArtho02-14-07, 11:35 AM | The issue is in the "creature that flies" part of the quote. Ceilia is not the flyer - but rather a recipient of flying from another creature. As I said - the Hippogriff could benefit from the dive, but for Ceilia it would only be a regular charge (for only x3 damage...). Fight about to be posted and it didn't even come up... And done: Ceilia Durrol (Zevox) vs Zwei und'Vierzig (Mitza Volchenko) |
| TelinArtho02-14-07, 11:50 AM | @Zevox - I don't recall specifically the source and am looking for it. I didn't find it in the FAQ just now - but it might be in a Rules of the Game article or someplace else. If anyone happens to remember where it is - please do speak up. |
| Zevox02-14-07, 11:53 AM | @ Telin - Looks pretty good to me. You forgot a few modifiers here or there (such as Zwei's mobility vs AoOs and the +4 trample gives Rook on his attacks after overruns), but nothing fight-changing, especially with the way things were going. Thanks for the quick run! Zevox |
| SauroGrenom02-14-07, 11:57 AM | Telin, I recall reading somewhere that only claw and talon attacks have increased damage on a dive. So that may be an issue as well. |
| Zevox02-14-07, 11:59 AM | Telin, I recall reading somewhere that only claw and talon attacks have increased damage on a dive. So that may be an issue as well. A Rules of the Game article mentions that any slashing or piercing weapon is doubled on a dive. Come now, thats one we've used a lot around here - Ixenthor is almost based on diving. Zevox |
| Abyssal Stalker02-14-07, 12:36 PM | Being in the AoE of a grease spell is "a situation". Whether you're moving in your own space (such as would be required to dodge an attack or swing a weapon) or moving through the space, you are moving. Standing from prone is movement. It involves moving your feet and your hands while in contact with the area that is affected by the grease spell. Swinging a weapon is movement. It involves moving your feet and your hands just as standing from prone does. A standing high jump that originates from the AoE should be classified as movement, don't you agree? What if the Jump check is less than 20? "I didn't jump more than 5', therefore I didn't technically move?" Bollocks. A grease spell is a situation that requires a balance check of affected creatures. Like I said, it can be argued that attacking is a kind of movement. But on the other hand, movement means usually taking a move action that includes a change in position; standing up, moving to another square, etc. Swinging a sword? Maybe, maybe not. That isn't as clear as those mentioned before. Your quote from the balance skill proves nothing in either way. It doesn't change the fact that the spell description says that you make a balance check when you move. It doesn't say that you must makke a balance check when you perform an action. I still think that the REF save is for just standing in the area and the balance check is only needed when you actually move. |
| orsono02-14-07, 12:46 PM | I got a couple of questions. last week fight that did not get posted is not going to take place? do I update my character for this week? |
| TelinArtho02-14-07, 01:00 PM | A Rules of the Game article mentions that any slashing or piercing weapon is doubled on a dive. Come now, thats one we've used a lot around here - Ixenthor is almost based on diving. Zevox My suggestion would be to go back to that article - because that may be where I am remembering the ruling from. As to missing the +4 to AC on AoO from movement, I don't think I missed any of them - or are you talking about the AoO from her standing (which would not qualify in my opinion - and if I am wrong - please do tell). For the +4 on the follow-up after knocking her prone - I just put that into her AC rather than apply it to your attack. |
| TelinArtho02-14-07, 01:02 PM | I got a couple of questions. last week fight that did not get posted is not going to take place? do I update my character for this week? Nope - do not touch it. It will be held over and the same sheet and tactics will be used next week. If tactics have been posted already, point the new pitlord to that post, otherwise resend your original tactics. If you do not have your original tactics, but they have not been posted, go ahead and rewrite them. But do not edit your character sheet. |
| Abyssal Stalker02-14-07, 01:28 PM | 70 rounds of smack the pig is done. |
| TheMagister02-14-07, 01:49 PM | 70 rounds of smack the pig is done. I do not think temporary hit points from vampiric touch work that way (stacking). Only the greatest amount applies at any given time. |
| TelinArtho02-14-07, 01:58 PM | Didn't read the fight - but as long as the HP are from separate sources - they would stack: Vampiric Touch for 15hp + Vampiric Touch for 15hp = 15 temp hp Vampiric Touch for 15hp + False Life for 15hp = 30 temp hp. |
| Abyssal Stalker02-14-07, 02:24 PM | You're right, though it's not an issue. His tactics actually said to use it earlier, so he wouldn't still get dropped. |
| MitzaVolchenko02-14-07, 02:44 PM | I am back...one hard drive short and a lot of headaches later. |
| MindWandererB02-14-07, 03:00 PM | Didn't read the fight - but as long as the HP are from separate sources - they would stack: Vampiric Touch for 15hp + Vampiric Touch for 15hp = 15 temp hp Vampiric Touch for 15hp + False Life for 15hp = 30 temp hp.Temp HP from different sources never stack, they overlap. I've seen that a few times, but I don't remember the source offhand. I'll hunt around. Re: Balance: I have come to the conclusion that Balance is just poorly worded. It's silly that you don't require ongoing checks, and thus don't lose your Dex bonus while standing stationary on top of a flagpole, but the rules say nothing about having to make Balance checks while stationary. In fact, there is no game definition for "while balancing." The most literal interpretation would be that you lose Dex only during the move (say, if you provoked an AoO). The most liberal would say you lose Dex while on any surface that requires checks to move across. I would actually use Climb as a precedent. You lose Dex while climbing, too, and it seems clear to me that this is a function of location (on a vertical surface) rather than movement. |
| hogarth02-14-07, 03:17 PM | I would actually use Climb as a precedent. You lose Dex while climbing, too, and it seems clear to me that this is a function of location (on a vertical surface) rather than movement. Note that balancing actually makes you flat-footed, though. That's more severe than just losing your Dex bonus. |
| jjones02-14-07, 03:25 PM | Didn't read the fight - but as long as the HP are from separate sources - they would stack: Vampiric Touch for 15hp + Vampiric Touch for 15hp = 15 temp hp Vampiric Touch for 15hp + False Life for 15hp = 30 temp hp. This is unequivocally untrue. They overlap and DO NOT stack. Phb clearly outlines this. JJ |
| sonofzeal02-14-07, 03:31 PM | Re: grease The rules on facing (or lack thereof) explicitely assume that, in core D&D, characters are constantly moving around and adjusting their position inside their square. This is why you make spot checks with no penalty directly behind you, why you can attack three different targets in three different directions in a turn, and why you can pass unhindered through an ally's square. Unless you're going to introduce the "Combat Facing" variant rules, movement inside a square is assumed and balance checks while on Greased ground are necessary. |
| MindWandererB02-14-07, 04:01 PM | This is unequivocally untrue. They overlap and DO NOT stack. Phb clearly outlines this.Hmm. Actually, both JJ and myself are wrong. Do temporary hit points from two applications of the same effect stack? What about from different effects? If I have temporary hit points from multiple sources, how should I apply damage? Temporary hit points from two applications of the same effect don’t stack; instead, the highest number of temporary hit points applies in place of all others. Temporary hit points from different sources stack, but you must keep track of them separately. For example, imagine a character who gained 15 temporary hit points from an aid spell. After taking 8 points of damage, she has 7 temporary hit points left from the spell. If another aid spell were cast on the same character granting 12 temporary hit points, this total would replace the other spell’s total, meaning the character would now have 12 temporary hit points (rather than 19). If the character then cast false life on herself, she would add the full benefit of that spell to the temporary hit points from the aid spell. This also applies to temporary hit points gained from energy drain and similar special abilities. Each successful attack counts as one application of the effect (meaning that an attack that bestows 2 or more negative levels still counts as only one application of the effect). For example, a wight gains 5 temporary hit points each time it bestows a negative level with its slam attack. If it bestows another negative level while it has 2 temporary hit points remaining from the first attack, the new temporary hit points would replace the old ones. Temporary hit points are “first-in, first-out.” Damage should be taken off the oldest temporary-hit-point-granting effect first; when that effect is exhausted, apply damage to the next oldest effect. For this reason, you must track each supply of temporary hit points separately. |
| TelinArtho02-14-07, 04:03 PM | :) Glad to see I didn't fully retract my statement. I take formal apologies in the form of $20 sent to the usual address (that is: my house...). |
| Maraxus02-14-07, 05:56 PM | Re: grease The rules on facing (or lack thereof) explicitely assume that, in core D&D, characters are constantly moving around and adjusting their position inside their square. This is why you make spot checks with no penalty directly behind you, why you can attack three different targets in three different directions in a turn, and why you can pass unhindered through an ally's square. Unless you're going to introduce the "Combat Facing" variant rules, movement inside a square is assumed and balance checks while on Greased ground are necessary. Through I'm the one who argues for the grease spell and for difficult balancing, i would not go so far. As far as I read it, the balance skill check is only needed when you are moving as in "Taking a move action to get someplace else on the battlefield" and not whenever you are moving as in "not immoblised". And I'm quite sure, because, it sais, that the success allows you to "move at half your speed". Oh and yes, I do agree that it's quite bad that those two diffrent thinks are described with the same term. :) However, despide this, this is not the only situation where you need balance. The part about beeing flat-footed without 5 ranks and having to do an balance check when hit are uneffected by that. |
| NiQil02-14-07, 10:12 PM | For those of you looking for the ruling on dives and damage, it is in the Court Decisions. Once of these days people will remember to look there... Q: Does a character mounted on a flying creature receive double damage when making a dive attack? A: No. Only the creature itself receives this bonus. |