Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TelinArtho 06-27-07, 10:19 AM	Fights of the Week: June 27th Please don't edit the sheet after the deadline or you will lose the match. Rules of Gladius All that you need to know is written in the Rules of Gladius. It could be useful also to give a look to the Court Decisions Part 1 and Part 2. Please do not make fake accounts or insult the Elders. Pairings GM MindwandererB will pair the active Characters of Gladius after the deadline. Link to pairings. Make sure that your character is not in prison. Pitlording You should use the CoCo Dice Roller (http://www.hwx.it/wizards.com) for the fight. If you need it, there is a nice template ready to use that will help. You could find the Battle Map Tag Generator (http://www.hwx.it/coco) for dynamic Maps very useful. You must post a link to your fight in this thread when it is complete. If you need a quick and dirty tool to calculate distances between two points (in 2-D or 3-D), this tool used to suffice until it got taken down without giving us proper notification... the Nerve Another useful link is the Quick Access tables for XP and Gold. If a fight needs to be rerun, the Pitlord has to inform the Pitlords account. He cannot react to requests from Players because the other player and the pitlord might disagree. He has no time to read the fight and the discussion. Please keep that in mind. PMs from players with rerun requests won't have an impact. Recent News and Developments Also, the council has finally figured out what to do about Handle Animal allies. Read the results here and here. Anyone who has a handle animal/purchased ally that doesn't conform to these rules is now eligible to be put in prison. Comments & Concerns Post any comments or concerns for this weeks fights in this thread. Be kind and courteous to your fellow posters, and don't feed the pitlords. Please remember that they do hard work and consume a lot of time to let you play. Above all, have FUN! If you have questions or comments on any of the changes, please make your posts be heard in the Council of Gladius!
Rauul 06-27-07, 10:24 AM	Now that Handle Animal and Diplomacy Allys have been ironed out... we need some mercs.. ecl's 2-8
TelinArtho 06-27-07, 10:27 AM	Thank you for volunteering to make some :) Seriously, make your own mercs and get them posted. The more there are that are made, the better chance we have of seeing them added. I'm still waiting for the clerics of Denth (at least one) to be added...
Rauul 06-27-07, 10:30 AM	Thank you for volunteering to make some :) Seriously, make your own mercs and get them posted. The more there are that are made, the better chance we have of seeing them added. I'm still waiting for the clerics of Denth (at least one) to be added... I would kick out 1-2 sneaky types (the type Shadow may pay for)... but i have never seen the point bye or the format for them..
TelinArtho 06-27-07, 10:31 AM	Follow the link from the mercenary roster Propose your Mercenary
Rauul 06-27-07, 10:37 AM	Follow the link from the mercenary roster Propose your Mercenary Cool will add the Cartel of Da Family Brothers (3 brothers levels 4,3,2) nice little mercenary family..
TelinArtho 06-27-07, 11:06 AM	Looks like we have pitlords for 16 fights (+1 max pitlord). If last week is any indication, we will probably have around 20-25 fights this week - so if someone wants to pick up an extra fight or two - this would be the week to do it (actually - every week is the week to do it...).
lonewolf 06-27-07, 11:10 AM	Honestly, as long as Merc are hardly ever hired, I dont think that we need new ones. The moment to think about new mercs would be if at least a third of them is hired consistently every week.
amalcon 06-27-07, 11:14 AM	I know I'm new around here, but I have a pretty good grasp of the rules in general. I'm willing to make myself available for running an easy fight if that helps. (Especially since my one fight from last week is late; I'd like to do something coliseum-related this week)
TelinArtho 06-27-07, 11:15 AM	Well - the problem is that it is self-defeating. Right now the selection of mercs is such that only 2 or 3 of them are ever hired - and then only in very situational circumstances. For instance, Trillian was hired fairly regularly by Maraxus's "Balrog" character because he was a centaur and could use Trillian as a rider. Barak and Jazer have seen limited use because they are mostly useful to the people that they are predisposed against to begin with (for instance - an arcane caster might benefit greatly from having Barak at his side - if it weren't for his hatred of arcane casters). Hauberk saw a fair amount of action when Sdentch hired him - but then once Sdentch died - that ended. Complicate the matter by making hiring only available from ECL5 on - and that means the ECL1 and 2 ones are much less desirable (since they are so fragile and have limited funds to equip themselves). We do need more mercs in the pool - we need the variety of them. I would also like to see them hireable at ECL4 - but there's plenty of other things on the plate of the council right now...
Korone 06-27-07, 12:30 PM	I'll volunteer a fight if needed.
Rauul 06-27-07, 12:52 PM	Honestly, as long as Merc are hardly ever hired, I dont think that we need new ones. The moment to think about new mercs would be if at least a third of them is hired consistently every week. I Agree.. As long as ECL 4 can't get mercs.. and at ECL 6 pc's can get leadership and have full control of the Cohort.. making ECL 5 the only real useful level for Mercs.. As they also Cost gold on top of the Ally % lost to exp and gold.. mercs are the least likely to get used.. as using them slow down the progression of the PC.. Until the Council works out Some Diplomacy/ Bardic Lore / Local Knowledge Skill sets to making hiring a merc worth it.. (not something i expect to see happen anytime soon)
Sjiggie 06-27-07, 01:07 PM	Sign me up for a extra fight if needed
waywreth 06-27-07, 01:21 PM	Sign me up for a extra fight if needed Whatever happened to: Inzin Dar'ath (waywreth) vs. Saldor Amalcon (amalcon) : Sjiggie [Arena][Late]? Thanks,
Sjiggie 06-27-07, 01:28 PM	Running it now soory that it is late
templer10 06-27-07, 02:03 PM	WEll - ECL 7 is going to be VERY intresting this week - largest activation in there for a while - 7 chars, ECL 8 is just a FFA wating to happen i imagine - althrough i wouldnt mind an inter league vs an ECL 10 - Elrick can now tank - not just blast (polar bear ftw).
Hirumajoe 06-27-07, 02:10 PM	How does a Halfling switching to a polar bear form "tank" better? You lose your armor AC, you lose your shield AC, you lose 2 dex AC, and you lose 2 AC to size (small-> large). Your hitpoints remain the same (since its based off of alternate form as opposed to polymorph). As far as I can tell, Elrick will die faster in Bear form than in Halfling form. On the other hand, he can "blast at point blank" much better with the 27 strength though. :)
templer10 06-27-07, 02:59 PM	How does a Halfling switching to a polar bear form "tank" better? You lose your armor AC, you lose your shield AC, you lose 2 dex AC, and you lose 2 AC to size (small-> large). Your hitpoints remain the same (since its based off of alternate form as opposed to polymorph). As far as I can tell, Elrick will die faster in Bear form than in Halfling form. On the other hand, he can "blast at point blank" much better with the 27 strength though. :) I actually meant that if he HAVE to go melee - he can be pretty good at it - and ill mainly only need to hit once with that grapple modifer against anyone but another supper grappler. once i got him in grapple my Horde of allies can eat him for lunch. (and me 2 - improved grab means i do lethal dmg if i remmber correctly).
MindWandererB 06-27-07, 04:11 PM	Pairings are done. God help us. We're avoiding SoE by the skin of our teeth, again, as Telin noticed. And my profound apologies for the bunch of you that got ugly, ugly fights.
TelinArtho 06-27-07, 04:17 PM	It seems you have missed Sir Valkin's mission in the Missions and Quests section - ML Salrantol, Goal - Improve Relations with Gorthyum. I do note that you have it in the Quest Roster though...
templer10 06-27-07, 04:22 PM	Pairings are done. God help us. We're avoiding SoE by the skin of our teeth, again, as Telin noticed. And my profound apologies for the bunch of you that got ugly, ugly fights. Cant lord lorian monster fight be avoided? there are 2 1v1 at ECL 5 that can be turned into inter league - considering as far as i know monster equipment thing hasnt been resolve and the inhert unfairness of them now?
MindWandererB 06-27-07, 04:29 PM	It seems you have missed Sir Valkin's mission in the Missions and Quests section - ML Salrantol, Goal - Improve Relations with Gorthyum. I do note that you have it in the Quest Roster though...Got it.Cant lord lorian monster fight be avoided? there are 2 1v1 at ECL 5 that can be turned into inter league - considering as far as i know monster equipment thing hasnt been resolve and the inhert unfairness of them now?It could have: there were originally five monster fights in the pairings, four of which could have been converted into Inter-League fights. I had enough pitlords to cover things if I converted two of them, so I randomly chose them. Bear in mind that we have only a few experienced pitlords with the time to run multiplayer fights. Credits: Erithmu: F2 Q4 Khaim: F1 Macbrea: F2 MitzaVolchenko: F2 Q-1 C3 Salrantol: F1 Q2 Sjiggie: F2 Q2 TelinArtho: F4 C-4 G1 templer10: F4 C-2 Yitzi: F2 C-2 Zevox: F5 C-3 A1 G1 amalcon: F1 Korone: F1 Malither76: Q2 MindWandererB: C-3 Q-1 A2 G1 NiQil: C-2 A1 SauroGrenom: C3 A1 G1 SoulLord: Q-1 TheMagister: G1 Vathelokai: C-1 Q2 G1
Zevox 06-27-07, 04:31 PM	Pairings are done. God help us. We're avoiding SoE by the skin of our teeth, again, as Telin noticed. And my profound apologies for the bunch of you that got ugly, ugly fights. Error: Kathren Durrol was crafting this week, not ready for the arena. Looks like I forgot to put the capped "full activity" note, so partially my fault, but that fight will have to be changed. Aerryl Nalladar (MindWandererB) vs. Featylec Elendi (Zevox) : TelinArtho [Sewer] Hm - sewer isn't exactly Featylec's arena of choice, but against Aerryl and her damn Bat, I'll take it. It'll still probably take a miracle to pull this off, but at least the map is a bit of an aid. Ephraim (Erithmu) vs. Eraca Moralta (Zevox) vs. Samuel Highground (lonewolf) : Macbrea [Forest] [All-vs-All] Ouch. My sympathies to Macbrea on this one. A Wilder-gish with Psion cohort, a Ghost, and a Wizard-Archer Gish. Not only will that be a tough one on Eraca, it'll probably be tough on Mac's sanity, especially given the map (forest with a ghost and a good sneak... yeesh). Zevox
templer10 06-27-07, 04:33 PM	All but 1 of lord lorian's loss's are monsters - But at least i bought minimal ranks in all knowladge skills now - i hope i do better then - on another note - elrick + izumi VS valen - OUCH - that's going to be nasty... BTW - did monster gear thing DIDNT change yet right?
MindWandererB 06-27-07, 04:36 PM	Error: Kathren Durrol was crafting this week, not ready for the arena. Looks like I forgot to put the capped "full activity" note, so partially my fault, but that fight will have to be changed.Grr... you didn't put any full activity note. As written, it would be a free activity. Well, it's fixable. Edit: done. Poof, you're a monster.
Zevox 06-27-07, 04:38 PM	Grr... you didn't put any full activity note. As written, it would be a free activity. Well, it's fixable. *shrugs* I also didn't put a fight number. In any event, it was a simple error when I was updating her in a hurry. Zevox
templer10 06-27-07, 04:38 PM	Rauul - Monster is Hellwasp Swarm - Have fun (knowladge arcane +16).
Rauul 06-27-07, 04:46 PM	@TelinArtho Tactics for Shadow vs Unholy Ninja Wench Sent
Erithmu 06-27-07, 05:07 PM	Ouch. My sympathies to Macbrea on this one. A Wilder-gish with Psion cohort, a Ghost, and a Wizard-Archer Gish. Not only will that be a tough one on Eraca, it'll probably be tough on Mac's sanity, especially given the map (forest with a ghost and a good sneak... yeesh). Your telling me ... Lonewolf ... I mean this in the nicest way possible .. can you go back into retirement for one more week?
Macbrea 06-27-07, 05:10 PM	Hmmm, Elrick can take Valen without Izumi's help. I guess she could just stand around and wait on him to show up.. :P
TelinArtho 06-27-07, 05:13 PM	@Mitza - Berri's and Vallgar's tactics have been sent. @Yitzi - Bulgar's tactics have been sent.
lonewolf 06-27-07, 05:13 PM	Your telling me ... Lonewolf ... I mean this in the nicest way possible .. can you go back into retirement for one more week? :evillaugh
templer10 06-27-07, 05:17 PM	Hmmm, Elrick can take Valen without Izumi's help. I guess she could just stand around and wait on him to show up.. :P Err - i doubt it, good thing it's a large map i can buff to the gils - valen has 2 many PPS...
Macbrea 06-27-07, 05:23 PM	Well, Izumi's tactics have been sent to you and Zevox. She is the most basic of characters on the board.
TelinArtho 06-27-07, 05:28 PM	@TelinArtho Tactics for Shadow vs Unholy Ninja Wench Sent Received - sent a reply.
TheMagister 06-27-07, 05:40 PM	Monsieur Hood (TheMagister) vs. The Chameleon (lonewolf) : Zevox [Arena] Bleedin' hell. Sure, I knew it could happen, but that doesn't mean I WANTED it to. {sigh} Hood hates sneaks. In other news: Rubicanti (TheMagister) and Nexa (Usurpator) vs. Relanex Thines[ECL9] (Macbrea) : Erithmu [City] [Inter-League] Now that is an interesting fight!
Rauul 06-27-07, 05:42 PM	Rauul - Monster is Hellwasp Swarm - Have fun (knowladge arcane +16). The worse monster on the list for Corrupter to fight... with no Area Effects.. With max damage and with that +14 reflex save... Gonna Surrender this one... is a Auto lost for corrupter..
Rauul 06-27-07, 05:48 PM	Received - sent a reply. Sent back a reply
Macbrea 06-27-07, 05:51 PM	Relanex's tactics sent.
TelinArtho 06-27-07, 05:51 PM	Sent back a reply Much better - thanks.
templer10 06-27-07, 05:56 PM	The worse monster on the list for Corrupter to fight... with no Area Effects.. With max damage and with that +14 reflex save... Gonna Surrender this one... is a Auto lost for corrupter.. Free credits for me i guess.
lonewolf 06-27-07, 06:01 PM	@Zevox: PM with Chameleons tactics sent. @Zevox, Macbrea & Erithmu: PM about Samuels Frighten Allies ability sent to all involved parties.(I hope thats the way it is supposed to work) I am starting to work on Samuels tactics now.
Macbrea 06-27-07, 06:02 PM	Yup, that is the way it works.
Erithmu 06-27-07, 06:04 PM	@Macbrea: Tactics for Ephraim sent @Lonewolf: Figured as much and wrote them as such.
Vathelokai 06-27-07, 06:06 PM	@TelinArtho Tactics for Shadow vs Unholy Ninja Wench Sent :eek: I'm not fighting NiQil this week? Wow! Working on tactics ...
Salrantol 06-27-07, 06:08 PM	@templer10: Monster fight info for Lord Lorian up.
Sjiggie 06-27-07, 06:17 PM	@ Yitzi: Monster info is up for Arbin Softfoot 1 small flying monster
MitzaVolchenko 06-27-07, 06:22 PM	@Telin Tacitcs received and tactics for Sybil sent.
Rauul 06-27-07, 06:33 PM	:eek: I'm not fighting NiQil this week? Wow! Working on tactics ... Nope your fighting another Assassin/Shadowdancer build.. Bard Rogue vs Monk Cleric.. Poor telin
Rauul 06-27-07, 06:34 PM	Free credits for me i guess. yea yea Can you at post it so i can update Corrupter... would rather have a fighting chance..
lonewolf 06-27-07, 07:08 PM	@Macbrea: Samuels tactics sent. Since I will be on a 10 day vacation starting Friday(I actually had planned not to come back here until after the vacation, but what the hell...), I probably wont be able to look at the finished fights until it is too late for any changes, so I ask my pitlords to take extra care this time. ;)
TheMagister 06-27-07, 07:13 PM	Para-Miltary Group! Siezing upon the weakness of the beleaguered Freedom Fighters, a new group has arisen in Upper Merx. Known as the Knights of the Shining Blade, they are a group composed mainly of Paladins and a few Clerics who have relocated from their former home in Kailo now that the Coalition rules there, and are claiming credit for driving out the Freedom Fighters. Their leader, Kareth Anor, is a Paladin and a veteran of wars from easterly nations, known for his intense piety and rough handling of the wicked as much as for his skill with his holy bastard sword. (Lawful Good group in Upper Merx, EL 13, drives out the EL 3 Freedom Fighters) Para-Military Group Attack! As their dying act, the Freedom Fighters have dispatched an operative of theirs on an attack. His orders must have been confused somewhere in their chaotic chain of command, though, for he seems to be headed not towards the Warfare Alliance, but to the PSI Consortium's chapter house in Gladius Park. Son of a -...! All that hard work, and now this. {sigh}
MitzaVolchenko 06-27-07, 07:32 PM	@NiQil, Rauul, and Sjiggie For Love of Money (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=12882320#post12882320) is underway.
Rauul 06-27-07, 07:37 PM	@NiQil, Rauul, and Sjiggie For Love of Money (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=12882320#post12882320) is underway. Yup this should be fun... the CN Elf hating half-orc, the CN Elf ranger, and the LG paladin.. If we don't kill each other in the first 2 weeks... will be the big challenge :)
Hirumajoe 06-27-07, 08:02 PM	Err - i doubt it, good thing it's a large map i can buff to the gils - valen has 2 many PPS... We looking at the same Valen Sky? He's a 7th level manifester. In the 1st fight of the cycle. Elrick is an 8th level caster who just leveled with 26 spell levels left at the end of the cycle. Spell power is on your side I believe. It should be an interesting fight no doubt. And yeah, the forest lends itself to long buff cycles. Although I seem to have an innate timer running in the form of the Fire-and-Forget Izumi. :)
Rauul 06-27-07, 08:13 PM	We looking at the same Valen Sky? He's a 7th level manifester. In the 1st fight of the cycle. Elrick is an 8th level caster who just leveled with 26 spell levels left at the end of the cycle. Spell power is on your side I believe. It should be an interesting fight no doubt. And yeah, the forest lends itself to long buff cycles. Although I seem to have an innate timer running in the form of the Fire-and-Forget Izumi. :) Izumi is a timer??... though she had a big hacking chain
Erithmu 06-27-07, 08:40 PM	I think Izumi would better be defined along the lines of Russian Roulette. 20 = pain!
TheMagister 06-27-07, 08:55 PM	Tactics for Hood have been PMed, Z. TM
Hirumajoe 06-27-07, 08:59 PM	@Zevox: Tactics sent for Valen vs Izumi and Elrick. And yes, I fully expect Izumi to roll a natural 20 on the first attack she makes on Valen, winning the match. :)
Vathelokai 06-27-07, 09:59 PM	Nope your fighting another Assassin/Shadowdancer build.. Bard Rogue vs Monk Cleric.. Poor telin Should be too bad. Ninja isn't much for hiding... yet. If I make it past a couple saves, your toast. @Telin: Tactics away!
TheMagister 06-27-07, 10:20 PM	@Usurpator - tactical genius sent via PM to get feedback for Rubi + Nexa vs. Relanex. TM
NiQil 06-27-07, 10:27 PM	@ Korone: Tactics for Sabretooth sent via PM @ templer10: Tactics for Tiris Rush sent via PM @ Yitzi: Tactics for Truls Rohk sent via PM @ Sjiggie: Tactics for Tyden Rayn sent via PM
Zevox 06-28-07, 12:33 AM	Son of a -...! All that hard work, and now this. {sigh} Tell me about it. I was frightened enough when I rolled the random event. When I rolled the district and EL I nearly choked. Then came the alignment... yeah. Anyway, I've got most of the tactics for my fights this week (had 8 new PMs when I showed up - thats a record). I'll get one of my sets of tactics (probably Featylec) out tonight, the other tomorrow, and run fights Friday and beyond. Zevox
Zevox 06-28-07, 12:53 AM	@ Telin/MWB - Scratch that, Featylec will just surrender that match. I just looked over Aerryl - fight 3 with nearly all of her spells left, damn the luck. Though she really only needs two to win (Daylight and Stoneskin). Toss in her having a Swarm he can't affect and him not having his shadow and theres really nothing he can do here - the only thing Aerryl doesn't have is concealment to negate his sneak attacks. ...you know, I should probably do a rebuild of Featylec. My self-imposed restriction of no magic or psionic classes with him weakens him enough here, but the complete disarray my early purchases and that campaign has put his finances in has left him with much weaker items than he should have at his level too, and thats just killing him. Guess I'll move that up to just behind activating Nimbus and getting the simple Cleric variant for Ceilia on my list of things to do with my credits. Zevox
TheMagister 06-28-07, 01:10 AM	Tell me about it. I was frightened enough when I rolled the random event. When I rolled the district and EL I nearly choked. Then came the alignment... yeah. Anyway, I've got most of the tactics for my fights this week (had 8 new PMs when I showed up - thats a record). I'll get one of my sets of tactics (probably Featylec) out tonight, the other tomorrow, and run fights Friday and beyond. Zevox Found a problem with that district roll. Chandar Forest, High Traversam, and Luna March don't exist anymore. An 18 would be Yurynwood. Or you could reroll a d18 and see what you get.
templer10 06-28-07, 01:23 AM	i just want to confirm something for myself - oyu need to prebuff loading a heavy crossbow - true? (since it's a full round action).
Zevox 06-28-07, 01:28 AM	i just want to confirm something for myself - oyu need to prebuff loading a heavy crossbow - true? (since it's a full round action). Most such minor things - deciphering scrolls, addressing powerstones, loading weapons, preparing flasks, etc - aren't actually required to be prebuffed, since theres every reason to do them, no reason not to do them, and they're fairly trivial anyway. Technically the rules on this only mention deciphering scrolls and adressing stones (with read magic/spellcraft/psicraft/UMD/UPD), but most pitlords won't penalize anyone for not listing little things like them as such. Zevox
Zevox 06-28-07, 01:41 AM	Found a problem with that district roll. Chandar Forest, High Traversam, and Luna March don't exist anymore. An 18 would be Yurynwood. Or you could reroll a d18 and see what you get. Hm, interesting. A reroll is definitely in order, yeah, and the list of random districts needs to be fixed. Gimme a minute, I'll see what happens. Zevox
Guildlords 06-28-07, 01:47 AM	Found a problem with that district roll. Chandar Forest, High Traversam, and Luna March don't exist anymore. An 18 would be Yurynwood. Or you could reroll a d18 and see what you get. TM, you're never going to believe this... 1d18=15 (http://www.hwx.it/wizards.com/dice.php?sid=400#64924) O=O=====O=O=====O |RANDOM DISTRICT| O==O============O=O=====O |01|Arcadivius | |02|Arkhein | |03|Central Gladius | |04|Dragor Mounds | |05|Duken Marina | |06|Gawane | |07|Gauterix | |08|Gladius Park | |09|Gorthyum | |10|Kailo | |11|Kelartus | |12|Lower Merx | |13|Merisia | |14|Plains Naesitya | |15|Upper Merx | |16|Valhamya | |17|Vilis | |18|Yurynwood | O==O====================O ...I'm so sorry buddy...
TheMagister 06-28-07, 02:29 AM	sigh can't win for losin'
TelinArtho 06-28-07, 09:28 AM	That's got to hurt... @Zevox - if that's an official surrender, I'll post it up in a few minutes.
amalcon 06-28-07, 09:37 AM	@Yitzi, Salrantol: Tactics recieved for both of you in Esme Baraksdottir (Salrantol) vs. Daren Legrad (Yitzi). I hope to run this today, but I can't guarantee that.
Vathelokai 06-28-07, 09:40 AM	@Telin: clarification on tactics sent.
TelinArtho 06-28-07, 09:41 AM	Thanks for being prompt. Will be working on the fight today most likely.
TelinArtho 06-28-07, 10:14 AM	Actually - looks like I'm going to start with an audit on The Shadow. There's at least two errors I've found - and both are potentially serious, so give me a bit...
Zevox 06-28-07, 10:15 AM	That's got to hurt... @Zevox - if that's an official surrender, I'll post it up in a few minutes. Yup, thats official. Theres a couple of tricks I can think of to hurt Aerryl in spite of her spells, but nothing that will work well enough to kill her past stoneskin before she and her swarm kill me. Zevox
TelinArtho 06-28-07, 11:19 AM	Actually - looks like I'm going to start with an audit on The Shadow. There's at least two errors I've found - and both are potentially serious, so give me a bit... Audit complete. Some errors in accounting there - but nothing that will prevent me from running the fight. @Rauul - make sure you fix the errors after the fight and PM me when it is done. If you have any questions about anything on the audit - ask in the Tavern, here or in PM. I will happily explain anything. Also - if the fight that is incomplete has been completed elsewhere, let me know and I will complete the audit with that fight included.
TelinArtho 06-28-07, 11:36 AM	Featylec Elendi (Zevox) vs Aerryl Nalladar (MindWandererB) is up. Pretty sad when I need to trim 6k+ characters out of a surrender fight... (Removed Aerryl's background and default tactics; removed Featylec's extensive balance sheet).
Zevox 06-28-07, 11:56 AM	@ Macbrea - Tactics for Eraca Moralta (vs Ephraim vs Sammuel) have been PMed. Not quite as hopeless as I thought initially - in a one on one, I could be reasonably certain of a victory over Sammuel, and Ephraim would be a fairly close match depending on the map. It'll take some luck, but I might just come out on top there. Zevox
Rauul 06-28-07, 12:56 PM	Audit complete. Some errors in accounting there - but nothing that will prevent me from running the fight. @Rauul - make sure you fix the errors after the fight and PM me when it is done. If you have any questions about anything on the audit - ask in the Tavern, here or in PM. I will happily explain anything. Also - if the fight that is incomplete has been completed elsewhere, let me know and I will complete the audit with that fight included. will do.. teach me for trying to keep the page small
TelinArtho 06-28-07, 01:07 PM	Looks like I've got some spotty internet problems - so while I might be working on the Shadow vs TUN fight - it seems I might be double-rolling by accident on occasion... I will try to delete the extraneous rolls and keep the earliest ones I roll in each case. So far has only happened once...
Rauul 06-28-07, 01:30 PM	Looks like I've got some spotty internet problems - so while I might be working on the Shadow vs TUN fight - it seems I might be double-rolling by accident on occasion... I will try to delete the extraneous rolls and keep the earliest ones I roll in each case. So far has only happened once... LOL no problem.. not even watching to close (never do) am having fun with with the Elf/half-orc confict in mitza's campaign
MindWandererB 06-28-07, 01:42 PM	Yup, thats official. Theres a couple of tricks I can think of to hurt Aerryl in spite of her spells, but nothing that will work well enough to kill her past stoneskin before she and her swarm kill me.You probably should have given it a go... Aerryl has been in a world of suck lately. And you're probably right: if you can't beat Aerryl at this stage of the game, when she's lost her last six fights in a row (and the win before that was damned close... and before that, another four losses... gosh, she hasn't actually won a fight vs. a PC, other than Anixx, since before she beat that Hydra ages ago. I didn't realize it was that bad), then Featylec is going to have a really hard time in general.Featylec Elendi (Zevox) vs Aerryl Nalladar (MindWandererB) is up. Pretty sad when I need to trim 6k+ characters out of a surrender fight... (Removed Aerryl's background and default tactics; removed Featylec's extensive balance sheet).Blame Aerryl's allies. And due to the combination of the "allies stay dead" rule and the inability to upgrade them, it's only going to get worse... she's going to need to quest for a new backup mount every time a half-decent one becomes available. Speaking of which, I should probably find her a new nonflying mount, since her bat and spider eater got nerfed in the small areas.
TelinArtho 06-28-07, 01:56 PM	Then might I suggest truncating the length of your ally sheets? Honestly, I don't think I've heard a single complaint about the shortened ally blocks that I use for the common allies - basically any non-leadership allies. And when you compare the length of your Spider Eater's SBLOCK (2677 characters) to Kraegin's LPA Medium Air Elemental (666 characters) the difference is apparent. Obviously, there are benefits to keeping a longer stat block for allies that have class levels - but for most animal or magical beast allies, most class allies - it really is a lot more fluff with not-so-much benefit.
TelinArtho 06-28-07, 02:04 PM	The Shadow (Rauul) vs The Unholy Ninja (Vathelokai) is up.
amalcon 06-28-07, 02:06 PM	Esme Baraksdottir (Salrantol) vs. Daren Legrad (Yitzi) [ECL3], wherein a Bard attempts to put a Monk to sleep, is finished.
Rauul 06-28-07, 02:15 PM	The Shadow (Rauul) vs The Unholy Ninja (Vathelokai) is up. thanks for the run... (10 round delay rule is a pure nerf to any sneaky type charaters.. is the reason they don't get fighter hp's is because they are sneaky)
TelinArtho 06-28-07, 02:20 PM	Well - there's plenty of ways to be sneaky without sitting in one spot that doesn't have a great view of the rest of a large map. In this particular case - you benefit from your opponent having a poor spot modifier, but by getting "autospotted" by the penalty - this does you a disservice. You did not benefit from your opponent's speed advantage however - which ultimately was your downfall here. Compare the situation with a person moving at 30. In that case, she'd have to double move to close distance and still wouldn't be in reach of you. THen you could move away once again and set up to snipe again. The same could be accomplished once you know where TUN is - which you did as of round 4. Move to relocate to sniping spots that are within range of sight of her. On a side note - I do find it funny that both of you have dodge but never specified to dodge the opponent... (I only mention it because I often miss the feat in the character sheet unless it is specifically mentioned).
Salrantol 06-28-07, 02:37 PM	Esme Baraksdottir (Salrantol) vs. Daren Legrad (Yitzi) [ECL3], wherein a Bard attempts to put a Monk to sleep, is finished.Not that it will end up mattering, but Daren didn't make saves against entangle in rounds 14 & 15, while he was still in the area of effect. Tragically, Esme is underequipped until she can finish this first cycle and buy some more expendables. Edit: Even more tragically, if I would have skipped lullaby, I'd've won... :( Edit again: You also seem to have mixed up the rewards--it looks like you gave Daren the bonus from Political Career that Esme's supposed to get and gave Esme nothing. She should get 366 of both XP & gp
amalcon 06-28-07, 02:44 PM	Not that it will end up mattering, but Daren didn't make saves against entangle in rounds 14 & 15, while he was still in the area of effect. Tragically, Esme is underequipped until she can finish this first cycle and buy some more expendables. Edit: Even more tragically, if I would have skipped lullaby, I'd've won... :( Oops, you're right. Not that it ended up mattering, so I'm not going to bother changing it for that.
Salrantol 06-28-07, 02:51 PM	Oops, you're right. Not that it ended up mattering, so I'm not going to bother changing it for that.And you'll note I didn't ask you to. I do ask you, though, to look at the 2nd edit I posted above.
amalcon 06-28-07, 02:54 PM	And you'll note I didn't ask you to. I do ask you, though, to look at the 2nd edit I posted above. Our posts appear to have crossed in flight. You are correct about the mixed up rewards; I'm fixing that now. edit: Rewards fixed.
MindWandererB 06-28-07, 03:03 PM	Then might I suggest truncating the length of your ally sheets? Honestly, I don't think I've heard a single complaint about the shortened ally blocks that I use for the common allies - basically any non-leadership allies. And when you compare the length of your Spider Eater's SBLOCK (2677 characters) to Kraegin's LPA Medium Air Elemental (666 characters) the difference is apparent. Obviously, there are benefits to keeping a longer stat block for allies that have class levels - but for most animal or magical beast allies, most class allies - it really is a lot more fluff with not-so-much benefit. I got that ally during a time when "complete" ally stats were getting a big push. You're right, I should pare it down to a WotC-style stat block.
TelinArtho 06-28-07, 03:07 PM	Heh - I never agreed with the "complete" ally stats. In so many cases it just isn't worth it. Light Warhorses, Guard Dogs, most familiars, animal companions - all of these are so common that they should be included just for the reference value - but I would never say I need an entire stat block like a PC for it. Just too much text for too little value. Now that the non-class allies have been pared down a fair amount (so the chance of someone having a "strange" ally is more limited), I think this is even moreso the case. Note - I would still keep a full-"ish" sheet for Leadership cohorts for obvious reasons though.
Rauul 06-28-07, 03:21 PM	Well - there's plenty of ways to be sneaky without sitting in one spot that doesn't have a great view of the rest of a large map. In this particular case - you benefit from your opponent having a poor spot modifier, but by getting "autospotted" by the penalty - this does you a disservice. You did not benefit from your opponent's speed advantage however - which ultimately was your downfall here. Compare the situation with a person moving at 30. In that case, she'd have to double move to close distance and still wouldn't be in reach of you. THen you could move away once again and set up to snipe again. The same could be accomplished once you know where TUN is - which you did as of round 4. Move to relocate to sniping spots that are within range of sight of her. On a side note - I do find it funny that both of you have dodge but never specified to dodge the opponent... (I only mention it because I often miss the feat in the character sheet unless it is specifically mentioned). actually i should argue the Delay penalty.. cause he did move 3 times in the 10 rds, climbed 2 times and fell once.. all the time looking for his target... 2 rds after moving from the balcony to not git hit with the delay penalty.. he is auto spotted for the penalty... should of never moved if that was the case..
Zevox 06-28-07, 03:22 PM	You probably should have given it a go... Aerryl has been in a world of suck lately. And you're probably right: if you can't beat Aerryl at this stage of the game, when she's lost her last six fights in a row (and the win before that was damned close... and before that, another four losses... gosh, she hasn't actually won a fight vs. a PC, other than Anixx, since before she beat that Hydra ages ago. I didn't realize it was that bad), then Featylec is going to have a really hard time in general. Well now it would have been another story entirely if Featylec had his shadow with him. Draining your strength away would've been a pretty good way to win this. But without him, yeah, the best I could do is try to hide with normal cover (wouldn't work very long) or hide in your shadow and use my rapier, and neither would work for very long, certainly not against stoneskin. With an adamantine rapier or arrows I'd have a much better chance, but I didn't have such either. But still, Featylec was only my second character ever here, and I made a lot of mistakes with him. Retooling him could make him much better, even with keeping my same plan for his levels or even just keeping my restriction against giving him magic or psionic classes. @ Telin - Minor error with the fight rewards, Aerryl prebuffed her bat swarm, so it modifies the rewards. -6.25% for Aerryl, +6.25% for Featylec. Zevox
MitzaVolchenko 06-28-07, 04:32 PM	Then might I suggest truncating the length of your ally sheets? Honestly, I don't think I've heard a single complaint about the shortened ally blocks that I use for the common allies - basically any non-leadership allies. And when you compare the length of your Spider Eater's SBLOCK (2677 characters) to Kraegin's LPA Medium Air Elemental (666 characters) the difference is apparent. Obviously, there are benefits to keeping a longer stat block for allies that have class levels - but for most animal or magical beast allies, most class allies - it really is a lot more fluff with not-so-much benefit. Or post your allies in a separate post and link them to your main sheet. IF you do that, I would put one line descriptions such as: "Arthur" 6HD Woggitybuggit...2Monster HD, 4Rogue-Immune to spells of silliness domain, melee +12/+3 (1d6+3), Hideous Laughter 3x/day. And I would put the something like GO TO ALLIES POST FOR FULL ALLIES' DETAILS ...just to make sure folks don't miss them :)
TelinArtho 06-28-07, 04:35 PM	Or post your allies in a separate post and link them to your main sheet. IF you do that, I would put one line descriptions such as: "Arthur" 6HD Woggitybuggit...2Monster HD, 4Rogue-Immune to spells of silliness domain, melee +12/+3 (1d6+3), Hideous Laughter 3x/day. And I would put the something like GO TO ALLIES POST FOR FULL ALLIES' DETAILS ...just to make sure folks don't miss them :) Allies need to be on the same sheet as the character and even if they weren't it wouldn't help the situation for fight posts if they were still full sheets - it would still take just as much space for them.
MindWandererB 06-28-07, 04:38 PM	@Zevox and templer10: Tactics for Besthirah (I accidentally said Aerryl in the title, oops) and Maya have been sent. One should be easy....
TelinArtho 06-28-07, 04:45 PM	@ Telin - Minor error with the fight rewards, Aerryl prebuffed her bat swarm, so it modifies the rewards. -6.25% for Aerryl, +6.25% for Featylec. Fixed. actually i should argue the Delay penalty.. cause he did move 3 times in the 10 rds, climbed 2 times and fell once.. all the time looking for his target... 2 rds after moving from the balcony to not git hit with the delay penalty.. he is auto spotted for the penalty... should of never moved if that was the case.. Moving 3 times, climbing twice, falling once - all of these things "interact meaningfully" with your opponent how? There is a non-cumulative 10-round limit to delaying tactics. Every ten rounds, you have to interact meaningfully with your opponent. If you do not, the pitlord is free to introduce some unfortunate circumstance (a random spectator yelling out your exact position, for example, or people throwing beer bottles at you) that makes you vulnerable and negates the method used to avoid combat. Note that this limit only applies if one of the characters wants to engage the other, but the other one is hiding, invisible, or out of reach. If both characters are doing their best to fight the other, no penalty should be introduced. Similarly, if a wizard is flying over the head of a melee fighter and peppering him with Magic Missiles while he is unable to do anything, no penalty should be given, since there is meaningful interaction between the gladiators. Now TUN wasn't either - however, she was doing something to reveal her position anyway (which is usually all I do in a delay penalty).
Yitzi 06-28-07, 04:46 PM	Bulgar Stronghammer vs. Truls Rohk is up.
Erithmu 06-28-07, 04:59 PM	Bulgar Stronghammer vs. Truls Rohk is up. *sniff sniff* Smells like dragon hunting time ...
TelinArtho 06-28-07, 05:01 PM	It certainly does... Vath are you ready? Off to the tavern...
Rauul 06-28-07, 05:15 PM	Fixed. Moving 3 times, climbing twice, falling once - all of these things "interact meaningfully" with your opponent how? Now TUN wasn't either - however, she was doing something to reveal her position anyway (which is usually all I do in a delay penalty). Problem with that.. is hitting one with an auto spot even if both deserve a delay penalty is that only 1 is effected and hurts the other drastically.. Auto spot on Shadow is almost as drastic as a Dispel on Unholy Ninjas Buffs.. Not arguing the outcome... more arguing the Delay penalty.. that totally nerfs most sneaky types.. as they have to wait for their target to get within range and have low hps.. 10 rds is just to low of a time.. 15-20 rds I could see.. and would be fair on the Rogues and other Sneaky types.. Shrug
TelinArtho 06-28-07, 05:20 PM	My point is - sneaks don't have to wait until their opponent gets into range. You did by choosing that location - but that location is not a requirement to be able to snipe from and is actually a pretty bad one for it (not enough visibility into the rest of the map). Being a proactive sneak can be very productive in the environment - especially with a speed booster like Expeditious Retreat to help you get away from many opponents. And correction for you - the delay penalty was not an Auto-spot - it was an auto-pinpoint. Difference being: You are still hidden, your opponent just knows where you are at that moment. Once you move again, she doesn't.
Salrantol 06-28-07, 05:57 PM	What happens if a pitlord hasn't posted any monster info for a monster fight by the tactics deadline? He certainly can't take that as an automatic surrender, can he? /poke templer10
MitzaVolchenko 06-28-07, 06:13 PM	Allies need to be on the same sheet as the character and even if they weren't it wouldn't help the situation for fight posts if they were still full sheets - it would still take just as much space for them. Hate to tell you this, but Willowmoon with allies will exceed 50k characters on her own in short order...cohort must have full sheet, handle animals need short sheets, followers must have full sheets...and when she starts growing a fight record? It is going to happen.
templer10 06-28-07, 06:38 PM	What happens if a pitlord hasn't posted any monster info for a monster fight by the tactics deadline? He certainly can't take that as an automatic surrender, can he? /poke templer10 Lol like i care - a win is a win. p.s. TActics for lord lorian sent. zevox - tactics for elrick sent- i never Unloaded on someone like i did in this one - hell i might end up with 0 spells at the end of this 3fc when i usually end with 50%+
Hirumajoe 06-28-07, 07:25 PM	zevox - tactics for elrick sent- i never Unloaded on someone like i did in this one - hell i might end up with 0 spells at the end of this 3fc when i usually end with 50%+ I'm suddenly very curious about those tactics. If only to know how Valen is going to get blasted. (They say curiosity killed the cat...) Since I think you've received all the tactics for the fight Zevox, would you be willing to post the fight setup early (even if you don't run it until much later)?
templer10 06-28-07, 07:31 PM	I'm suddenly very curious about those tactics. If only to know how Valen is going to get blasted. (They say curiosity killed the cat...) Since I think you've received all the tactics for the fight Zevox, would you be willing to post the fight setup early (even if you don't run it until much later)? YOu sent tactics already right?
Salrantol 06-28-07, 07:43 PM	p.s. TActics for lord lorian sent.I think you might be misunderstanding me. Felice tu'Ria (Salrantol) vs. Unknown Monster : templer10 [Cavern]That's what I was talking about.
templer10 06-28-07, 07:44 PM	I think you might be misunderstanding me.That's what I was talking about. OH - damn didnt see that - give me a sec. EDIT - monster roll is - 2 worgs - i wish i had monster fights this easy...
Rauul 06-28-07, 07:48 PM	OH - damn didnt see that - give me a sec. While your doing that one.... need a Battle set up for Corrupter For the Surrender... Got to have a link for it (looser Awards)... So i can update the sheet..
templer10 06-28-07, 07:49 PM	While your doing that one.... need a Battle set up for Corrupter For the Surrender... Got to have a link for it (looser Awards)... So i can update the sheet.. yea yea - need to write last set of tactics and ill set it up.
Yitzi 06-28-07, 08:02 PM	OH - damn didnt see that - give me a sec. Now I feel much better about having to be reminded to post the monsters for Longshot's fight a few weeks back.
templer10 06-28-07, 08:07 PM	Now I feel much better about having to be reminded to post the monsters for Longshot's fight a few weeks back. We are all human (or elf). ZEVOX - tactics for lady liara sent- damn i was short- barely 2 peragraphs.
templer10 06-28-07, 08:18 PM	Corruptor surrenders here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12896709&postcount=1030)
NiQil 06-28-07, 09:51 PM	@ Yitzi: Thanks for the run. Slight problem in the last round that is possibly result affecting... Truls attacks first, and got a 24 on his attack roll. As far as I can tell, that should be a hit (since a 23 hit in the previous round). There is no damage roll in that round for this attack. The damage dealt in that round has a very good chance to put Bulgar out before he connects with his killing shot on his turn. The damage roll should be 1d8+5 + 1d8. Minimum there is 7. Anything other than a 1, 1 or 1, 2 or 2, 2 or 3, 1 on those damage rolls is going to change the outcome. And even if you make the corrections for the incorrect damage on Bulgar's damage, Truls will still be standing in round 10 to make that attack. So I would very much like to see those damage rolls. Edit: Slight correction...there is no psychic strike on that attack roll. So it's 1d8+5, which means Truls has a 50/50 shot (needing a 5 or better on the damage roll) of dropping Bulgar before he drops Truls. So if you could make that damage roll, that would be super.
Vathelokai 06-28-07, 11:17 PM	Now TUN wasn't either - however, she was doing something to reveal her position anyway (which is usually all I do in a delay penalty).I figured that I'd just end up walking around until TUN got sniped, then slowly locate the sniper while healing damage. Even without the delay penalty, that's how my tactics were set up to work. Seems to me the penalty only made it happen faster. *sniff sniff* Smells like dragon hunting time ...I think I'll need a week. I'll go discuss in the tavern.
NiQil 06-28-07, 11:22 PM	I figured that I'd just end up walking around until TUN got sniped, then slowly locate the sniper while healing damage. Even without the delay penalty, that's how my tactics were set up to work. Seems to me the penalty only made it happen faster. I think I'll need a week. I'll go discuss in the tavern. Don't get too hasty just yet...Bulgar may not be ready either. See my last post.
TheMagister 06-28-07, 11:28 PM	I figured that I'd just end up walking around until TUN got sniped, then slowly locate the sniper while healing damage. Even without the delay penalty, that's how my tactics were set up to work. Seems to me the penalty only made it happen faster. I wish Hood had that option. He's gonna just have to tough Chameleon out until he finds him. MAN I hate sneaky types. None of my characters are really equipped to deal with them.
Erithmu 06-28-07, 11:47 PM	Don't get too hasty just yet...Bulgar may not be ready either. See my last post. I think he levels either way.
NiQil 06-29-07, 12:04 AM	Yeah...he's 413 shy of leveling....even with his ally penalty and a loss I think he would level....though by a much closer margin.
Yitzi 06-29-07, 12:28 AM	@ Yitzi: Thanks for the run. Slight problem in the last round that is possibly result affecting... Truls attacks first, and got a 24 on his attack roll. As far as I can tell, that should be a hit (since a 23 hit in the previous round). There is no damage roll in that round for this attack. The damage dealt in that round has a very good chance to put Bulgar out before he connects with his killing shot on his turn. The damage roll should be 1d8+5 + 1d8. Minimum there is 7. Anything other than a 1, 1 or 1, 2 or 2, 2 or 3, 1 on those damage rolls is going to change the outcome. And even if you make the corrections for the incorrect damage on Bulgar's damage, Truls will still be standing in round 10 to make that attack. So I would very much like to see those damage rolls. Edit: Slight correction...there is no psychic strike on that attack roll. So it's 1d8+5, which means Truls has a 50/50 shot (needing a 5 or better on the damage roll) of dropping Bulgar before he drops Truls. So if you could make that damage roll, that would be super. I can't believe I missed that! Well, the roll was made, and it didn't change the outcome.
NiQil 06-29-07, 12:45 AM	I can't believe I missed that! Well, the roll was made, and it didn't change the outcome. Fair enough...missed it by that much.
TelinArtho 06-29-07, 09:39 AM	Yeah - Bulgar would have leveled regardless. A win just gives him an extra 1kgp to spend before he goes... Thanks for the fight Yitzi. And NiQil - as always - looking forward to another match later on.
TelinArtho 06-29-07, 09:51 AM	Received two sets of tactics for the all vs all - I still need Tezca's tactics though.
templer10 06-29-07, 10:57 AM	Maya VS lightwolf is done (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12901557&postcount=1031) - here is why Buffing is importent.... Feel free to lay into me - but tactical decisions were explained, and i wont buff for peeps that didnt ask for it.
lonewolf 06-29-07, 11:07 AM	@Macbrea: Reading Ephraims tactics for the FFA, I want to note that Samuel is immune to EM(cold) because all undead are immune to anything requiring a Fort Save. I think a fair solution would be about 2 wasted attacks(the first one could also just be the power resistance) before they notice what is going on and change to fire, but I will leave that up to you.
Macbrea 06-29-07, 11:14 AM	That is incorrect. All undead are immune to fort saves that don't effect objects. Target for Energy missile reads: Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless). Target: Up to five creatures or objects; no two targets can be more than 15 ft. apart. As a result he can be targeted and effected.
Yitzi 06-29-07, 11:30 AM	Maya VS lightwolf is done (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12901557&postcount=1031) - here is why Buffing is importent.... One big problem: I said "single shot if a 15 will not hit, rapid shot otherwise." I assumed that it was clear that "single shot if a 15 will not hit" means if a 15 will not hit on single shot, not if a 15 will not hit on the rapid shot that has not been mentioned yet. You noted that I need a 16 to hit on rapid shot, meaning a 15 would hit on single shot. So I should have been rapid shotting, which will almost certainly change the outcome (average of 12/20 hits/round instead of 8/20). And sunder wouldn't have helped anyway if I had remembered to put in my tactics "use mending if bow is sundered". That's what I got it for.
lonewolf 06-29-07, 11:33 AM	That is incorrect. All undead are immune to fort saves that don't effect objects. Target for Energy missile reads: As a result he can be targeted and effected. Correct. My bad. That means my (low) Power resistance, the miss chance from incorporeality and the occasional total cover from beiing in the ground will have to be sufficient. @templer10: I read Lightwolf vs maya fight and noticed something that may change a good deal of the fight: In round 3 you had Lightwolf make a rapid shot on the horse with 2 hits. But one arrow would have been sufficient to drop it. That second arrow should probably gone in Vilas direction. If that arrow doesnt hit Vilas(I see no link to the rolls) it doesnt change much, but if it does, Vilas drops a round earlier and that could change the outcome significantly.
templer10 06-29-07, 11:37 AM	@templer10: I read Lightwolf vs maya fight and noticed something that may change a good deal of the fight: In round 3 you had Lightwolf make a rapid shot on the horse with 2 hits. But one arrow would have been sufficient to drop it. That second arrow should probably gone in Vilas direction. If that arrow doesnt hit Vilas(I see no link to the rolls) it doesnt change much, but if it does, Vilas drops a round earlier and that could change the outcome significantly. it wont hit And vilas is a couplle of hundred feet away from Lightwolf (and that horse) at the time. p.s. - there is a link to the roller.
Yitzi 06-29-07, 11:59 AM	What about my point? That should make a big difference.
TelinArtho 06-29-07, 12:03 PM	One big problem: I said "single shot if a 15 will not hit, rapid shot otherwise." I assumed that it was clear that "single shot if a 15 will not hit" means if a 15 will not hit on single shot, not if a 15 will not hit on the rapid shot that has not been mentioned yet. You noted that I need a 16 to hit on rapid shot, meaning a 15 would hit on single shot. So I should have been rapid shotting, which will almost certainly change the outcome (average of 12/20 hits/round instead of 8/20). And sunder wouldn't have helped anyway if I had remembered to put in my tactics "use mending if bow is sundered". That's what I got it for. For the record - you can't use this kind of metagame information from the pitlord. If you can make that decision from his sheet - that's fine - but you can't specify "if he has buff 1 2 and 3 up - only single shot" - unless you have the ability to identify those buffs through spellcraft/psicraft. If the character doesn't use buffs - then it is less serious (because you can make that decision from seeing his sheet) - but even then, it is more appropriate to make a statement such as "When he is within 2 range increments, rapid shoot; outside of that range, use single shots."
Yitzi 06-29-07, 12:26 PM	If the pitlord wants to rule that I don't know the force screen is up and will therefore use rapid shot until I see the screen deflect it...that's fine. But default is to assume the buff is not up, so my point holds. As for putting it as "if x will hit", that's simply because otherwise there are too many variables-cover, prone, range, buffs that I do know about (I can use the chracter sheet to know the options, and I can see if an arrow was blocked by an invisible shield even if I don't know what the spell is before that.) I feel that "if a 15 won't hit" is easier than "if I am at least 440' away, subtract 220' from that value if I see my arrow deflected by an invisible shield, 220' if she has cover, and 220' if she is prone."
Hirumajoe 06-29-07, 12:33 PM	If the pitlord wants to rule that I don't know the force screen is up and will therefore use rapid shot until I see the screen deflect it...that's fine. But default is to assume the buff is not up, so my point holds. As for putting it as "if x will hit", that's simply because otherwise there are too many variables-cover, prone, range, buffs that I do know about (I can use the chracter sheet to know the options, and I can see if an arrow was blocked by an invisible shield even if I don't know what the spell is before that.) I feel that "if a 15 won't hit" is easier than "if I am at least 440' away, subtract 220' from that value if I see my arrow deflected by an invisible shield, 220' if she has cover, and 220' if she is prone." While clearly, the prone, range and cover are in general obvious from positions or actions, there is in general no information being returned to a character on why something missed. What if you missed becauase your shot was wide of its mark? What if you missed because his natural dexterity had him move out of the way quick enough? There's no mechanic for determining "why" something missed. A GM would be well within his rights to house rule one or just make it up on the fly to make good descriptive fights for his table top players. However, pitlords, who are aiming for impartiality and a fair fight no matter who is doing it, can't really do that. Unless we institute a house rule which probably would add unneeded complexity to fights. Thus, this gives value to the spellcraft and psicraft skills. Which probably is a good thing in general.
Yitzi 06-29-07, 12:40 PM	While clearly, the prone, range and cover are in general obvious from positions or actions, there is in general no information being returned to a character on why something missed. What if you missed becauase your shot was wide of its mark? What if you missed because his natural dexterity had him move out of the way quick enough? There's no mechanic for determining "why" something missed. A GM would be well within his rights to house rule one or just make it up on the fly to make good descriptive fights for his table top players. However, pitlords, who are aiming for impartiality and a fair fight no matter who is doing it, can't really do that. Unless we institute a house rule which probably would add unneeded complexity to fights. Thus, this gives value to the spellcraft and psicraft skills. Which probably is a good thing in general. Actually, I pitlord that if it doesn't make the touch AC without deflection, it was dodged, if deflection makes it miss the touch AC it was deflected, then comes shield, then armor, then natural armor. And if it's a critical miss, he hits some nearby object. Since I do that for everyone, it's not a question of impartiality. In any case, the primary point-that Lightwolf should have rapid shotted in the given situation and that that would probably give him a win, remains.
Hirumajoe 06-29-07, 12:49 PM	Actually, I pitlord that if it doesn't make the touch AC without deflection, it was dodged, if deflection makes it miss the touch AC it was deflected, then comes shield, then armor, then natural armor. And if it's a critical miss, he hits some nearby object. Since I do that for everyone, it's not a question of impartiality. However, its clear that not all our pitlords do that (as the current case demonstrates). Its an extra service that you provide, but any other pitlord is free to use any other method or none at all since there are no guidelines on the subject. It also means a fight run by you and someone who doesn't provide that information to characters could have different outcomes. In any case, the primary point-that Lightwolf should have rapid shotted in the given situation and that that would probably give him a win, remains. Not arguing that point in any way shape or form. Gracefully leaving the discussion now. :)
MindWandererB 06-29-07, 01:17 PM	Maya VS lightwolf is done (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12901557&postcount=1031) - here is why Buffing is importent.... Feel free to lay into me - but tactical decisions were explained, and i wont buff for peeps that didnt ask for it.In any event, I'm going to call for an edit, because the sunder attempt was indeed successful (11 damage, ignores hardness, vs. the 5 HP of a wooden projectile weapon, not 15). This causes Lightwolf to use Mending (wish I'd noticed that--ironic, since I use it myself) in round 5 rather than dropping Vilas. I'm not sure about the exact locations at this point (you have them in the same square), but Lightwolf has the options of either windrawing (putting off his kill of Vilas by yet another round), 5' stepping (which allows Maya to attempt another sunder, which will fail but he doesn't know that), or move+cast (which provokes an AoO). Also, when making multiple attacks, you can wait to see the results of the first before making the second. So Lightwolf wouldn't waste his second shot in round 3 on a dead horse. (Which, I believe, undoes the extra round I bought above, but oh well.) There are other mistakes--you have Maya's Ride check as 1d20+4, rather than 1d20+11, for instance--but they're not fight-affecting. So... I think this all comes out a wash. But it would be nice to see it done. @Yitzi: You can specify range increments, you can specify modifiers (such as prone or cover), you can specify effects if you can see them, but you can't specify die rolls. Mainly because some effects are invisible. That being said, looking at the roller, you got a lot of hits with rolls of 14 or 15, and only a couple with a 16 or higher. So for this time, I don't think using Rapid Shot would have helped you.
Zevox 06-29-07, 02:29 PM	Dunerunner vs Lady Liara is up. Can't say it was particularly interesting, but at least it was easy to run. Zevox
templer10 06-29-07, 02:53 PM	In any event, I'm going to call for an edit, because the sunder attempt was indeed successful (11 damage, ignores hardness, vs. the 5 HP of a wooden projectile weapon, not 15). This causes Lightwolf to use Mending (wish I'd noticed that--ironic, since I use it myself) in round 5 rather than dropping Vilas. I'm not sure about the exact locations at this point (you have them in the same square), but Lightwolf has the options of either windrawing (putting off his kill of Vilas by yet another round), 5' stepping (which allows Maya to attempt another sunder, which will fail but he doesn't know that), or move+cast (which provokes an AoO). Also, when making multiple attacks, you can wait to see the results of the first before making the second. So Lightwolf wouldn't waste his second shot in round 3 on a dead horse. (Which, I believe, undoes the extra round I bought above, but oh well.) There are other mistakes--you have Maya's Ride check as 1d20+4, rather than 1d20+11, for instance--but they're not fight-affecting. So... I think this all comes out a wash. But it would be nice to see it done. @Yitzi: You can specify range increments, you can specify modifiers (such as prone or cover), you can specify effects if you can see them, but you can't specify die rolls. Mainly because some effects are invisible. That being said, looking at the roller, you got a lot of hits with rolls of 14 or 15, and only a couple with a 16 or higher. So for this time, I don't think using Rapid Shot would have helped you. MWB - you are wrong on the sunder - since it's a longbow +1 it has 10 extra HP so that 1 sunder isnt enough - and about the second shot on vilas - didnt notice it at the time but it was commented and i checked and it wouldnt have hit vilas so no harm (since vilas was second on list of priorities). p.s. - with a guy who rapid shots all the time - last thing i want is even MORE rolls so ill prefer to batch up as many rolls toghter as possible and correct mistakes after.
templer10 06-29-07, 02:56 PM	Dunerunner vs Lady Liara is up. Can't say it was particularly interesting, but at least it was easy to run. Zevox ty for the run - on what you said about me expecting him to come to me ill say htis - the REAl reason i BOUGHT the wand of MM is to force peeps to come to me - otherwise they are plinked to death, If i were him i would have gone for grapple and hope the charge wouldnt hit Since in a grapple i would have lost most likely. anyway iam off to edit the char and i have to decide if i want to level psy warrior or cleric..
Zevox 06-29-07, 03:04 PM	on what you said about me expecting him to come to me ill say htis - the REAl reason i BOUGHT the wand of MM is to force peeps to come to me - otherwise they are plinked to death Except that, with any cover to move to and from (like the statues had on this map) or difficult terrain to put between you (like the stairs or lava here), it won't be hard to approach you without giving you a charge opportunity. Dunerunner could've done it here quite easily to be sure. Zevox
templer10 06-29-07, 03:10 PM	Except that, with any cover to move to and from (like the statues had on this map) or difficult terrain to put between you (like the stairs or lava here), it won't be hard to approach you without giving you a charge opportunity. Dunerunner could've done it here quite easily to be sure. Zevox Maybe - i was more then a little tired writing tactics but in the temple you can be in a position to force a charge if the guy wants to come to you. btw- iam not sure if yitzi will want to edit it in since all it will do is run down my wand and his dorja (and end the same result really) but he Did ask for reaplication of vigors - Altrhough in this fight it would mean all that happenms is I do MM he does vigor every round with me eventually wiining becuase of higher avrage dmg. p.s. in the temple if you stay in the higher platform - unless he climb to get to it - you CAN force a charge.
Yitzi 06-29-07, 03:42 PM	No need to edit Dunerunner's fight (Lightwolf's, however, I do want the edit). The problem was that because your wand of MM isn't lined up with with the other two, my eye skipped over it, so I thought I could rely on deflect arrows unless she came to me.
templer10 06-29-07, 04:01 PM	One big problem: I said "single shot if a 15 will not hit, rapid shot otherwise." I assumed that it was clear that "single shot if a 15 will not hit" means if a 15 will not hit on single shot, not if a 15 will not hit on the rapid shot that has not been mentioned yet. You noted that I need a 16 to hit on rapid shot, meaning a 15 would hit on single shot. So I should have been rapid shotting, which will almost certainly change the outcome (average of 12/20 hits/round instead of 8/20). And sunder wouldn't have helped anyway if I had remembered to put in my tactics "use mending if bow is sundered". That's what I got it for. Sorry - no go on the 15 thing - If you wonder why - looks at just what you said - you "assumed" - when i read it i clearly understood it to mean - rapid shot as the DEFULT method of attack UNLESS a 15 on the rapid shot will not hit so i wont edit for that. Now even if i did do rapid shots Most of the shots you did hit wouldnt have hit on a rapid shot and since maya had plenty more of vigors it wouldnt have made a diffrence.
templer10 06-29-07, 04:02 PM	No need to edit Dunerunner's fight (Lightwolf's, however, I do want the edit). The problem was that because your wand of MM isn't lined up with with the other two, my eye skipped over it, so I thought I could rely on deflect arrows unless she came to me. can happen to the best of them - but tsk tsk - when do i EVER only have 1 method of attack.. Hell i think the best use of that whole spirited charge thing is a deternet so peeps Wouldnt want to get near me and exploit that.
MindWandererB 06-29-07, 04:21 PM	MWB - you are wrong on the sunder - since it's a longbow +1 it has 10 extra HP so that 1 sunder isnt enough - and about the second shot on vilas - didnt notice it at the time but it was commented and i checked and it wouldnt have hit vilas so no harm (since vilas was second on list of priorities). p.s. - with a guy who rapid shots all the time - last thing i want is even MORE rolls so ill prefer to batch up as many rolls toghter as possible and correct mistakes after. Note to self: pay attention. I could have had a much easier time with that fight had I done so. Ah well.
templer10 06-29-07, 04:28 PM	Note to self: pay attention. I could have had a much easier time with that fight had I done so. Ah well. i know- i mean - you couldnt have reasonably expected to pull off energy pushes against a much faster guy then you (after your horse is dead) and with a high touch AC. Your best bet (if sunder didnt work) was probably what you did in the end- trade shots with revigoring - but with force screen + self cast vigor + offensive precog would have made this fight last a lot less time.
MindWandererB 06-29-07, 04:34 PM	Oh, can you add Maya's free activity? Thanks.
templer10 06-29-07, 04:44 PM	Oh, can you add Maya's free activity? Thanks. done
Zevox 06-29-07, 05:49 PM	btw- iam not sure if yitzi will want to edit it in since all it will do is run down my wand and his dorja (and end the same result really) but he Did ask for reaplication of vigors Hm, so he did. He should really organize those tactics a little better - its hard to see where contingencies are when the tactics are just a block of text like that. Could've made it a very long fight. Glad he doesn't want it rerun for that. p.s. in the temple if you stay in the higher platform - unless he climb to get to it - you CAN force a charge. Not really. With decent speed, or a fair jump or climb check, its not hard at all to position yourself to get behind a statue to avoid that. Zevox
templer10 06-29-07, 05:59 PM	Hm, so he did. He should really organize those tactics a little better - its hard to see where contingencies are when the tactics are just a block of text like that. Could've made it a very long fight. Glad he doesn't want it rerun for that. Not really. With decent speed, or a fair jump or climb check, its not hard at all to position yourself to get behind a statue to avoid that. Zevox i just thought of a way (if it's possible) to get a lot more charges going - normally you cant ready a charge since you only have a standrat action when you ready - BUT if you ready - to manifest Hustle then charge you get that move action back? manifesting hustle is a swift action after all so i dont see a reason you cant ready it with the charge.
Salrantol 06-29-07, 06:08 PM	"Unknown" monster vs. Lord Lorian is up here & here. He was very well set up for their tactics, which were forced to be a long shot anyway. They (I) kind of assumed he would be out swiftly (single moving out while buffing, double moving afterwards) and sort of assumed they'd find him very soon after meeting each other, which didn't quite work out for Bardy MacRogue. They did almost have a chance, just because the dice gods hated templer10 in that fight, but they hated Roguey just as much.
templer10 06-29-07, 06:15 PM	"Unknown" monster vs. Lord Lorian is up here & here. He was very well set up for their tactics, which were forced to be a long shot anyway. They (I) kind of assumed he would be out swiftly (single moving out while buffing, double moving afterwards) and sort of assumed they'd find him very soon after meeting each other, which didn't quite work out for Bardy MacRogue. They did almost have a chance, just because the dice gods hated templer10 in that fight, but they hated Roguey just as much. i figured blindness + invisibility were their only chance and sysenthete + touchsight more or less kills that. btw- i almost never come out fast out of the gate- i just LOVE to buff - especially on a large map.
templer10 06-29-07, 06:18 PM	Question - worgs got in their treasure entry that silly dividation between items, (1/10 coins, 50% goods 50% items) does that means they only got 50% of CR 2 wealth for actual items?
Salrantol 06-29-07, 06:19 PM	Note I didn't expect you not to buff, I just expected you to be moving while doing so--simply because that's what I tend to do and it always seems to me to make more sense. *shrug*
templer10 06-29-07, 06:23 PM	Note I didn't expect you not to buff, I just expected you to be moving while doing so--simply because that's what I tend to do and it always seems to me to make more sense. *shrug* I do like in the army - preapere for the worst and you wont be suprised.
Zevox 06-29-07, 06:49 PM	i just thought of a way (if it's possible) to get a lot more charges going - normally you cant ready a charge since you only have a standrat action when you ready - BUT if you ready - to manifest Hustle then charge you get that move action back? manifesting hustle is a swift action after all so i dont see a reason you cant ready it with the charge. Um, how do you think that would work? A charge is a full round action. You can only ready standard, move, or free actions. It doesn't matter how many move actions you have, it won't change that rule. Zevox
templer10 06-29-07, 06:56 PM	Um, how do you think that would work? A charge is a full round action. You can only ready standard, move, or free actions. It doesn't matter how many move actions you have, it won't change that rule. Zevox oh right - my bad- i always think of it as a move + standart.
stimpydoda 06-29-07, 07:25 PM	tactics sent for Lycidas.
templer10 06-29-07, 07:44 PM	Felice vs 2 worgs is done (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12908647&postcount=1034) - frakly the result suprised me.
Salrantol 06-29-07, 08:51 PM	Felice vs 2 worgs is done (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12908647&postcount=1034) - frakly the result suprised me.In regards to your question in comments, Felice cashed that in for a full refund in the Training Hall, that's why she didn't use the Energy Ray dorje.
templer10 06-29-07, 08:54 PM	In regards to your question in comments, Felice cashed that in for a full refund in the Training Hall, that's why she didn't use the Energy Ray dorje. Ah- ill recommend geting some kind of a dorja as a backup weapon at least since PPS usually arent enough to consistenly win.
TheMagister 06-30-07, 03:42 AM	@Zevox - I was looking over the Hood vs. Chameleon fight, and I just wanna make certain that you're remembering that once we're within 40', the Chameleon cannot re-hide from Bob without some sort of cover. Bob's sighted ability renders darkness of any sort (even magical darkness) irrelevant. Also, Bob's copies of Steadfast Perception and Synesthete are still active, so even Invisibility won't help. If Hood can't see Chameleon, then Hood should be using seeking arrows (I figured that Chameleon would have to bring her own shadows with her [via a darkness spell] to hide). I didn't think that the arena would provide her with convenient shadows, or I'dve written to use seeking arrows anytime Hood couldn't see Chameleon. ...but I didn't. Play it as you see fit. :) Thanks for running! Oh yeah. Hood doesn't know Force Screen. He can't manifest it from memory -- only via powerstone. TM
Hirumajoe 06-30-07, 07:53 AM	@Zevox - I was looking over the Hood vs. Chameleon fight, and I just wanna make certain that you're remembering that once we're within 40', the Chameleon cannot re-hide from Bob without some sort of cover. Bob's sighted ability renders darkness of any sort (even magical darkness) irrelevant. Is that true? I've always thought of Hide in Plain Sight as simply requiring shadow as a catalyst to allow the (Su) ability to work as opposed to hiding directly in the shadow, since you can be up to 10' away from the shadow you're supposed to be "using". However, given the nature of the Ranger (Ex) Chameleon and (Ex) Hide in Plain Sight its clear those require you to be in the environment. Would Chameleon at a distance of 35' from Bob with shadows 45' away from Bob (in a straight line) allow Chameleon to use Hide in Plain Sight? I.e. B------C-S Not saying this is the wrong interpretation, I'm just asking if this is how those two abilities interact around here (for my own edification). I've got a psicrystal and I'm planning on taking Shadowdancer, so either way is good for me. :)
hogarth 06-30-07, 08:10 AM	Is that true? I've always thought of Hide in Plain Sight as simply requiring shadow as a catalyst to allow the (Su) ability to work as opposed to hiding directly in the shadow, since you can be up to 10' away from the shadow you're supposed to be "using". I agree -- the fact that a psicrystal can ignore darkness doesn't cause existing shadows to vanish. Ditto with darkvision. They both negate any concealment from shadows (making normal hiding in darkness impossible), but concealment isn't necessary for a shadowdancer's Hide in Plain Sight.
Zevox 06-30-07, 09:44 AM	@Zevox - I was looking over the Hood vs. Chameleon fight, and I just wanna make certain that you're remembering that once we're within 40', the Chameleon cannot re-hide from Bob without some sort of cover. Bob's sighted ability renders darkness of any sort (even magical darkness) irrelevant. As Hirumajoe and hogarth said, this is incorrect. Whatever the flavor I like to use for the ability, Hide-in-Plain-Sight as written just requires shadows to be nearby to hide, it doesn't require those shadows to obstruct anyone's view on their own. Also, Bob's copies of Steadfast Perception and Synesthete are still active, so even Invisibility won't help. I'm aware - those things are why Bob spotted her in the first place. If Hood can't see Chameleon, then Hood should be using seeking arrows (I figured that Chameleon would have to bring her own shadows with her [via a darkness spell] to hide). I didn't think that the arena would provide her with convenient shadows, or I'dve written to use seeking arrows anytime Hood couldn't see Chameleon. Of course the arena provides her with shadows - unless the whole arena were completely bathed in a daylight spell, its only natural for any object to cast a shadow. Oh yeah. Hood doesn't know Force Screen. He can't manifest it from memory -- only via powerstone. Well, that may slow me down a bit and have you draw another stone to restore that, then. Zevox
Zevox 06-30-07, 11:31 AM	And The Chameleon vs Monsieur Hood is complete. Pretty predictable - not much Hood could do once his amorpha fell and allowed Chameleon sneak attacks. Zevox
TheMagister 06-30-07, 01:13 PM	I agree -- the fact that a psicrystal can ignore darkness doesn't cause existing shadows to vanish. Ditto with darkvision. They both negate any concealment from shadows (making normal hiding in darkness impossible), but concealment isn't necessary for a shadowdancer's Hide in Plain Sight. Then all I can say is "wow, that's even more powerful than I thought." Thanks for the run. Edit: you do realize that that means that ANY shadow is sufficient to allow a shadowdancer to hide. A wispy cloud could pass in front of the sun at high noon and cover an entire county, and the shadowdancer could hide in it. Even though no one's vision is really hampered. {shrug} TM
Hirumajoe 06-30-07, 01:23 PM	Then all I can say is "wow, that's even more powerful than I thought." Thanks for the run. Edit: you do realize that that means that ANY shadow is sufficient to allow a shadowdancer to hide. A wispy cloud could pass in front of the sun at high noon and cover an entire county, and the shadowdancer could hide in it. Even though no one's vision is really hampered. {shrug} TM Well, thats the point. It lets you hide without cover or concealment. And while being observered. If you had to be in a shadow substantial enough to provide concealment, the first statement would be unnecessary. Try reading the Ranger version. That one's even worse. A ranger could be standing on a perfectly flat plain, with no vegetation, no rocks, absolutely nothing, and as long as its a natural terrain he can hide. And thats not even a (Su) ability... At least with the Shadow Dancer one I can kinda trick myself into thinking he cast a really odd varient of invisibility or something and that his "material component" is a shadow... Basically, on the plains, cavern, arena, forest maps there is absolutely nothing you can do to prevent a 17th level ranger from hiding. At best you can use a non-visual means of detection.
NiQil 06-30-07, 01:23 PM	Then all I can say is "wow, that's even more powerful than I thought." Thanks for the run. Edit: you do realize that that means that ANY shadow is sufficient to allow a shadowdancer to hide. A wispy cloud could pass in front of the sun at high noon and cover an entire county, and the shadowdancer could hide in it. Even though no one's vision is really hampered. {shrug} TM Wait til our lighting effects go active....
Korone 06-30-07, 01:29 PM	Tatsuo Vs. Sabretooth is up. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12915644&postcount=1037)
NiQil 06-30-07, 01:37 PM	Tatsuo Vs. Sabretooth is up. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12915644&postcount=1037) Small problem... In my tactics I specified running and plinking. Not withdrawing or double moving, but running. There was a reason for this. By running away, the horse can't keep up due to my higher speed. Even if the horse runs, that means attacks are penalized. Then in the following round I should be moving and plinking, then running again. I was very specific about using the word running. I would appreciate if you can correct this, as it has a good chance to change the result.
lonewolf 06-30-07, 01:42 PM	And The Chameleon vs Monsieur Hood is complete. Pretty predictable - not much Hood could do once his amorpha fell and allowed Chameleon sneak attacks. Zevox Thanks for the run. You forgot to add the True Strike spell The Chameleon cast in the wrap up.
Korone 06-30-07, 01:52 PM	Small problem... In my tactics I specified running and plinking. Not withdrawing or double moving, but running. There was a reason for this. By running away, the horse can't keep up due to my higher speed. Even if the horse runs, that means attacks are penalized. Then in the following round I should be moving and plinking, then running again. I was very specific about using the word running. I would appreciate if you can correct this, as it has a good chance to change the result. Yep, but you were stuck in melee before being able to run away. I wasn't really sure if you wanted to take the attacks of opportunity or not. I'll edit the fight soon.
NiQil 06-30-07, 01:55 PM	Yep, but you were stuck in melee before being able to run away. I wasn't really sure if you wanted to take the attacks of opportunity or not. I'll edit the fight soon. Also, I see no ride checks to control the light horse. That can have a huge bearing on this fight. Horses in Combat: Warhorses and warponies can serve readily as combat steeds. Light horses, ponies, and heavy horses, however, are frightened by combat. If you don’t dismount, you must make a DC 20 Ride check each round as a move action to control such a horse. If you succeed, you can perform a standard action after the move action. If you fail, the move action becomes a full round action and you can’t do anything else until your next turn.
Adolfo_Mondschein 06-30-07, 02:24 PM	I was told my mount could start with the combat riding package from under handle animal, therefore its trained for war but not bred for it, no checks needed. *edit* also note under ride that I can increase my mounts movements a little by making a ride check. If using this, try to let off the horse after a couple of rounds, I want it for my next fights! :)
NiQil 06-30-07, 02:56 PM	I was told my mount could start with the combat riding package from under handle animal, therefore its trained for war but not bred for it, no checks needed. *edit* also note under ride that I can increase my mounts movements a little by making a ride check. If using this, try to let off the horse after a couple of rounds, I want it for my next fights! :) I see no mention of this anywhere in the fight. All that was mentioned is that you were alotted a light horse, not a light horse trained for war. That is what was mentioned in my tactics due to the reported violation, and also this is what the pitlord mentioned in the summary: Note: Tatsuo was using the light horse's stats instead of the warhorse's for Num-Nums. Ultimately, it is up to the pitlord to decide what, if anything, you are granted to replace something you cannot use. But there is no mention of the horse being war-trained anywhere. Until there is, the ride checks need to be there. Also, to spur the mount (which is what I assume you are referring to), you should probably have mentioned that in your tactics. I would consider that improvisation in this case, since it is not mentioned.
Adolfo_Mondschein 06-30-07, 03:18 PM	Also, to spur the mount (which is what I assume you are referring to), you should probably have mentioned that in your tactics. I would consider that improvisation in this case, since it is not mentioned. So I suppose I have to point out that he tries to critical hit opponents and that if he were submerged in liquid that he'll hold his breath instead of breathing it in? If Tatsuo's opponent is barely getting away and he knows that he can catch him with a simple ride check, then he'd do it. Common sense. I shouldn't have to plan for everything that can possibly happen, since I can't and that would be a LOT of reading for a pitlord. I also told him of the horse being trained, even though he didn't mention it. If it wasn't then I should have been given feedback so I could try and adjust my strategy.
TheMagister 06-30-07, 03:22 PM	I remember him asking about this in the tavern, and we (MWB) told him that he should get a war-trained mount in replacement of his light warhorse. This info was given to him during his tactics writing process, and he was banking on it. It's a difference of 75 gold, and it's a change made by a new player b/c of a rules change. Give it to him, Niqil. ;)
NiQil 06-30-07, 03:25 PM	So I suppose I have to point out that he tries to critical hit opponents and that if he were submerged in liquid that he'll hold his breath instead of breathing it in? If Tatsuo's opponent is barely getting away and he knows that he can catch him with a simple ride check, then he'd do it. Common sense. I shouldn't have to plan for everything that can possibly happen, since I can't and that would be a LOT of reading for a pitlord. I also told him of the horse being trained, even though he didn't mention it. If it wasn't then I should have been given feedback so I could try and adjust my strategy. I wouldn't consider spurring common sense at all. I would consider that a conscious decision made on the part of the rider, knowing that he is going to hurt his mount doing it. I consider that something that needs to be mentioned in tactics. And, as I said, neither you nor I get to decide what the pitlord replaces an illegal item with. That is entirely pitlord discretion. He can give you a light horse trained for combat, or he can give you a riding dog, or nothing at all. It's his call. The only mention of the modification to the horse is in my tactics when referring to the violation, and the part that I quoted, where the pitlord determined that a light horse was being used. Training for war is never mentioned. And if it was something that was going to be allowed, then I should have received that input so that I could alter my tactics accordingly. I was never given this input. That gate swings both ways. Maybe the fairest thing to do is to hold the fight over and rerun it.
NiQil 06-30-07, 03:27 PM	I remember him asking about this in the tavern, and we (MWB) told him that he should get a war-trained mount in replacement of his light warhorse. This info was given to him during his tactics writing process, and he was banking on it. It's a difference of 75 gold, and it's a change made by a new player b/c of a rules change. Give it to him, Niqil. ;) What was discussed is what he could replace the warhorse with to fix his violation. Not what he was given during the fight. That is entirely up to the pitlord. But my tactics had already been submitted. So what you are asking me to do is to be unfairly penalized for an issue not of my making. Edit: And judging by my opponent's tactics, his tactics were submitted before he even looked at the violation, since he appears to have written them assuming the warhorse would be there. But that is a guess on my part.
Adolfo_Mondschein 06-30-07, 03:46 PM	I wouldn't consider spurring common sense at all. I would consider that a conscious decision made on the part of the rider, knowing that he is going to hurt his mount doing it. I consider that something that needs to be mentioned in tactics. And, as I said, neither you nor I get to decide what the pitlord replaces an illegal item with. That is entirely pitlord discretion. He can give you a light horse trained for combat, or he can give you a riding dog, or nothing at all. It's his call. The only mention of the modification to the horse is in my tactics when referring to the violation, and the part that I quoted, where the pitlord determined that a light horse was being used. Training for war is never mentioned. And if it was something that was going to be allowed, then I should have received that input so that I could alter my tactics accordingly. I was never given this input. That gate swings both ways. Maybe the fairest thing to do is to hold the fight over and rerun it. If you knew I was going to have a light horse, then maybe you should have realized that it came trained. I wasn't the one who made you assume that it would buck me off when the first shot was fire, you assumed that. Did you think I was going to get a barded mount I ride in combat that danced or something and ran from battle?
NiQil 06-30-07, 04:00 PM	If you knew I was going to have a light horse, then maybe you should have realized that it came trained. I wasn't the one who made you assume that it would buck me off when the first shot was fire, you assumed that. Did you think I was going to get a barded mount I ride in combat that danced or something and ran from battle? I didn't know you were going to have a light horse. As I stated in my tactics, and as I have stated all along, it is the pitlord's decision. I took it upon myself to write my tactics assuming you would have a normal light horse, and I said so in my tactics. Light horses do not automatically come trained for war when you purchase them. This is an extra option that you have the ability to also purchase. So please don't get snippy with me for your mistake. I could have written my tactics assuming you would have no mount at all, and would still be equally justified in raising the issues I am raising now.
Adolfo_Mondschein 06-30-07, 04:13 PM	I assume you visit the Tavern, issues just as this was discussed there. I even pointed out that normal light horses aren't trained for war. They in turn, pointed out that it could be, the pitlord and I went with it. While you were making sure everyone knew I had a light warhorse ally, I was fixing the problem. Seeing as your tactics point out my warhorse, suggest a normal one, and say you are ok with it, I don't see any further problems. I guess I could have PM'd you to let you know it would be trained for war, but then again, my changes were blatantly obvious on the boards for all to see. From your argument it would seem you were just hoping I wouldn't be mounted so that you would win. Ironically, I had just this issue on the board, expeditious retreat + magic missile wand = unmounted normal melee guy losing. In the end it was a fair fight, I did nothing I couldn't do, and neither did you. The rolls just so happened to favor Tatsuo in the end and he won.
NiQil 06-30-07, 04:20 PM	I assume you visit the Tavern, issues just as this was discussed there. I even pointed out that normal light horses aren't trained for war. They in turn, pointed out that it could be, the pitlord and I went with it. While you were making sure everyone knew I had a light warhorse ally, I was fixing the problem. Seeing as your tactics point out my warhorse, suggest a normal one, and say you are ok with it, I don't see any further problems. I guess I could have PM'd you to let you know it would be trained for war, but then again, my changes were blatantly obvious on the boards for all to see. From your argument it would seem you were just hoping I wouldn't be mounted so that you would win. Ironically, I had just this issue on the board, expeditious retreat + magic missile wand = unmounted normal melee guy losing. In the end it was a fair fight, I did nothing I couldn't do, and neither did you. The rolls just so happened to favor Tatsuo in the end and he won. And I will say once again...the discussion in the Tavern was in no way related to this fight. Never once was this fight mentioned. This was in reference to fixing the violation. If you recall, I was a part of that discussion. If there was a determination made as to what you would be allotted, it is the pitlord's responsibility to alert me to that. And if your changes were so blatantly obvious, how come I have yet to see a post or an IM saying that you were being given a light horse trained for war? You say that yourself and the pitlord talked about it and ran with that....how is that obvious? I have not received a PM advising this, it was not listed in your tactics, and it is not listed anywhere in the fight. So bottom line...either the ride checks are made or I am going to have to ask that this fight be held over and we each get a chance to submit new tactics after the pitlord determines what, if anything, you are given to replace the illegal light warhorse. I am not going to be penalized for your mistake. If I had been told that you were being given a light horse trained for war, and had the chance to submit appropriate tactics knowing this, and still lost, I would be the first one standing here saying good job. But none of that happened.
Adolfo_Mondschein 06-30-07, 04:44 PM	And I will say once again...the discussion in the Tavern was in no way related to this fight. Never once was this fight mentioned. This was in reference to fixing the violation. If you recall, I was a part of that discussion. If there was a determination made as to what you would be allotted, it is the pitlord's responsibility to alert me to that. And if your changes were so blatantly obvious, how come I have yet to see a post or an IM saying that you were being given a light horse trained for war? You say that yourself and the pitlord talked about it and ran with that....how is that obvious? I have not received a PM advising this, it was not listed in your tactics, and it is not listed anywhere in the fight. So bottom line...either the ride checks are made or I am going to have to ask that this fight be held over and we each get a chance to submit new tactics after the pitlord determines what, if anything, you are given to replace the illegal light warhorse. I am not going to be penalized for your mistake. If I had been told that you were being given a light horse trained for war, and had the chance to submit appropriate tactics knowing this, and still lost, I would be the first one standing here saying good job. But none of that happened. Where does it say that the pitlord has to tell you of small changes that you already acknowledged and accepted? It's just as you said, the pitlord had a say over it, why should I be penalized for going through the proper channels and fixing my error? I hate to fall back on an excuse, but I'm new. As an experience member, you should expect mistakes from me. I don't do them intentionally, and when I do I'll fix them. Nothing you wrote signaled you had a problem with a change to my mount. In fact you were nice about it. Only when you lost did you have an issue. I don't see how you can play the misinformed card when you knew what was going on. You never asked to be told of what the Pitlord agreed on, and you didn't get it. Your tactics did not go into it said situations, and the pitlord took it as what he saw, two informed players in a match. If he wants to rerun the fight, then that's his decision, but as far as I'm concerned, I won, just barely. Nothing in the rules state that you have to know everything thats going on at all times. The fact that he's running for us in the first place is already wonderful, but asking him to rerun another fight because you claim that you didn't know everything seems like a lot to ask of him.
NiQil 06-30-07, 04:55 PM	Where does it say that the pitlord has to tell you of small changes that you already acknowledged and accepted? It's just as you said, the pitlord had a say over it, why should I be penalized for going through the proper channels and fixing my error? I hate to fall back on an excuse, but I'm new. As an experience member, you should expect mistakes from me. I don't do them intentionally, and when I do I'll fix them. Nothing you wrote signaled you had a problem with a change to my mount. In fact you were nice about it. Only when you lost did you have an issue. I don't see how you can play the misinformed card when you knew what was going on. You never asked to be told of what the Pitlord agreed on, and you didn't get it. Your tactics did not go into it said situations, and the pitlord took it as what he saw, two informed players in a match. If he wants to rerun the fight, then that's his decision, but as far as I'm concerned, I won, just barely. Nothing in the rules state that you have to know everything thats going on at all times. The fact that he's running for us in the first place is already wonderful, but asking him to rerun another fight because you claim that you didn't know everything seems like a lot to ask of him. Technically, nothing in the rules states that you be allowed to use any item to replace an illegal one. By the rules, the item is simply not available. That has always done at pitlord discretion. But when a decision is made, I have the right to know about that decision. So if you want to go that route, we can go that route, and we can remove the horse entirely. I am trying to be fair here, but you appear to not be interested in that. As you have stated, you are new, and I am trying to be as fair as I can be...but all you seem interested in is me being at a disadvantage because of your mistake. You continue to maintain that I knew what was happening.....how could I have when I was never told anything? I made an assumption in my tactics, and stated in my tactics that it was an assumption. If that assumption was not true, I have a right to be told so that I can correct what I have submitted. So again...we can either make the ride checks...we can remove the horse entirely as an illegal item, or we can redo the fight with new tactics on both sides. But something has to change.
MindWandererB 06-30-07, 06:39 PM	Cool it, you two, or I'm going to have to sic a moderator on you. We have rules for this sort of thing. NiQil is correct in that it is entirely up to the pitlord how to resolve a violation on the fly. However, he made an assumption as to what the pitlord's decision would be, and wrote tactics accordingly. That was a mistake; he should have asked for clarification from the pitlord first. The pitlord, or the opponent, informing you of such a change is a courtesy, not a requirement. NiQil's tactics specified that they applied only if the a normal horse was substituted for the warhorse, but he mentioned nothing about training. There isn't anything in those tactics that suggests that he expected the horse to be untrained. Mentioning this only after the fact comes across as poor sportsmanship (regardless of your intent). Regardless of which, the big rule is that the rerun will only be granted if either the pitlord, or both players, request it. Adolfo, it would be nice if you let him rewrite tactics, but you aren't obligated to do so.
NiQil 06-30-07, 06:48 PM	Cool it, you two, or I'm going to have to sic a moderator on you. We have rules for this sort of thing. NiQil is correct in that it is entirely up to the pitlord how to resolve a violation on the fly. However, he made an assumption as to what the pitlord's decision would be, and wrote tactics accordingly. That was a mistake; he should have asked for clarification from the pitlord first. The pitlord, or the opponent, informing you of such a change is a courtesy, not a requirement. NiQil's tactics specified that they applied only if the a normal horse was substituted for the warhorse, but he mentioned nothing about training. There isn't anything in those tactics that suggests that he expected the horse to be untrained. Mentioning this only after the fact comes across as poor sportsmanship (regardless of your intent). Regardless of which, the big rule is that the rerun will only be granted if either the pitlord, or both players, request it. Adolfo, it would be nice if you let him rewrite tactics, but you aren't obligated to do so. Yanno....at this point it is really not worth it to me to continue with this. Let the fight stand. I tried to be fair, but apparantly that isn't wanted. That being said, going forward, the following clarification will be added to the Prison rules to govern this type of thing: Any character with a Violation tag (and ONLY a Violation tag) will not be paired in the following week's pairings. Violation and/or Violation tags will not prevent the character from being paired. However, depending upon the violation, they may cause feats, items, allies, etc to not be available during your fight. If this proves to be the case, it is up to the pitlord to determine what, if anything, will be allowed to be used as a substitute. The pitlord is not required to allow a substitute, but it is generally considered the right thing to do. It is then the pitlord's responsibility to inform both players so that tactical alterations can be made on both sides.
MindWandererB 06-30-07, 06:52 PM	Yanno....at this point it is really not worth it to me to continue with this. Let the fight stand. I tried to be fair, but apparantly that isn't wanted. That being said, going forward, the following clarification will be added to the Prison rules to govern this type of thing: Speaking of which, would you mind rewriting the blub in the Rules of Gladius? It's out of date, and I'd like to see the clarification you just made in there: The Board - The Prison of Gladius (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=571107) Thread If someone finds something wrong with another person's character, this is the place to post about it. The Prisonlords will see if there is a problem, and if there is, they will usually put a *Violation* or a *Violation* tag next to the character in the roster. A red violation means that the character cannot do anything (fight, go on quests, craft, etc) until the violation is fixed, though he or she can usually finish whatever he/she is doing at the time. An orange violation is given for less severe problems; if an orange violation is not fixed within one week, the orange violation becomes a red violation. If you find a [P] attached to one of your characters on the roster, take a look at this thread. You'll find the reason for the violation here. The Prison is run by a board account called Prisonlords (http://boards1.wizards.com/member.php?u=383783). The current Prisonlord is NiQil (http://boards1.wizards.com/member.php?u=385209), one of the Elders. His word is law in the Prison, and can only be overruled by the Game Master.
NiQil 06-30-07, 06:55 PM	Speaking of which, would you mind rewriting the blub in the Rules of Gladius? It's out of date, and I'd like to see the clarification you just made in there: I'll take care of it. The intro post to the Prison also needs to be updated. I'll see if I can't work on those tonight or tomorrow and forward them to you for updating when I do the Prison update tomorrow.
MindWandererB 06-30-07, 06:58 PM	I'll take care of it. The intro post to the Prison also needs to be updated. I'll see if I can't work on those tonight or tomorrow and forward them to you for updating when I do the Prison update tomorrow. Thanks.
Adolfo_Mondschein 06-30-07, 07:06 PM	Looking at his tactics, not knowing if the horse was trained or not didn't appear to have any bearings on them. I don't want this fight to be rerun, it was a fair fight, the rolls determined the outcome. I don't want to waste a pitlords time by rerunning an already legitimate fight. That's not to say I like outcome, I wish Niqil and I could both agree on it, but we don't. If he had mentioned in his tactics anything about Tatsuo's mount being untrained, I'd agree with him and ask for a do-over, but thats not the case. If I let this slide, then anyone with vague tactics would expect the same of me or other people, they may even purposely make vague tactics to exploit it. I don't want a rerun, as soon as this is all cleared up, I'm going to fix my char sheet, update, and move on.
Korone 06-30-07, 11:05 PM	Er, right. I didn't thought that it would cause all this. Anyway, NiQil, not to be harsh or anything, but it is an horse. Trained or not, it is still an horse, I don't see a big deals right there. And since it was already cleared here in the tavern, then it should had been ok. I didn't saw the point in PMing you to tell you that Tatsuo will have a light horse instead of his now illegal light warhorse when you were Ok with this, that you suggested this in the first place and that you even wrote your tactics accordingly. I'll make sure to clarify everything in futur fight to make sure it don't cause any problems. But if we forget this; About your tactics of 'hit and run'. The horse might have a slower speed, but your dwarf is wearing a full plate, making his run x3 instead of x4. The horse can moves 200ft. in a round while the dwarf could run 150ft. Whatever happen, Tatsuo will be able to base the dwarf each round, then makes a melee attack. To continu the same tactics, Sabretooth would have to provoke an attack of opportunity, makes his full moves without being able to use his wand. Tatsuo base Sabretooth again, attacks, etc. Tatsuo get two attacks a round while Sabretooth simply try to run away. I opted for the five foots step and magic missile the lizard instead of that. If I am in error in doing this and I should follow the tactic letter by letter, then just tell me and I'll adjust the way I'll pitlord any futur fight I'll have the chance to run. It is the second fight I run so it is more likely that errors/problems will arise and I like to have them pointed at me. Though, I can still modify the fight if I missed something that could clearly change the result.
Yitzi 06-30-07, 11:25 PM	Basically, on the plains, cavern, arena, forest maps there is absolutely nothing you can do to prevent a 17th level ranger from hiding. At best you can use a non-visual means of detection. Or beat his hide check. Or wait for him to attack, beat his sniping hide check (at -20 penalty), and then attack before he can remake his hide check next round.
Zevox 07-01-07, 12:31 AM	Then all I can say is "wow, that's even more powerful than I thought." Thanks for the run. Edit: you do realize that that means that ANY shadow is sufficient to allow a shadowdancer to hide. A wispy cloud could pass in front of the sun at high noon and cover an entire county, and the shadowdancer could hide in it. Even though no one's vision is really hampered. {shrug} TM Yup, of course. Game-stat wise, thats the whole point of the ability ("hide-in-plain-sight", you know?). Much as I like the flavor for it I use (well, stole out of Paul Kemp's novels), the way its written as far as the rules go doesn't exactly correspond to that, and doesn't make near as much sense. Thanks for the run. You forgot to add the True Strike spell The Chameleon cast in the wrap up. Taken care of. Zevox
MindWandererB 07-01-07, 04:17 PM	We have a bit of an interesting situation on our hands. Gradak Tumblebelly (Sjiggie) vs. Psyker Elfbane (Khaim) : UserNamer [Arena] [Fight]Usernamer has informed me that despite the fact that he posted results, there are mistakes that he made that needed to be corrected. Now, the fight was not held over, because I had no idea that the pitlord considered it incomplete. However, neither PC has been in the arena since, so an edit is still possible. However, UserNamer isn't going to do it. Would someone else be willing to look over the fight and the concerns, and see if it can be resolved? I know this isn't really fair to Khaim, since the fight was marked as completed, but we do have a precedent of edits under these circumstances.
Sjiggie 07-01-07, 07:40 PM	Here are the mistakes I found and the ones Khaim found. @ Usernamer. I found some mistakes in the fight. First I didn't got the suprise round from my ambush skill package. I clearly listed what I wanted to do with it. Second if it turned out into a ranged battle when it did I wanted to stay behind cover but you make me move so that I'm in the open and not behind cover what is in my move range. Third I asked for rapid shots but you let Gradak single shoot all the time. Please roll the extra attack that I could make in round 5 till 8. And one final question why is Psyker shooting vs AC 15 in round 9 my ac at that time is 19+1dodge+4force screen (+4 cover where Gradak shoud have moved). Can you please make the edits because these are not minor but can effect the outcome of the fight. Thanks for your effort -Sjiggie Well if he's rerolling the fight then I want to not stand there and be shot at while refocusing- my tactics clearly say not to do that. Why everyone ignores me on this, I do not know. For that matter, in round 4 you have Gradak immediately abandon his tactics and switch to ranged. While it's obvious to you that we're going to end up in a ranged battle, it shouldn't be obvious to him for another round or two. Also, Chameleon lasts 10 min/level not min/level.
Erithmu 07-01-07, 08:07 PM	Rubicanti & Nexa vs Relanex Lots of fireworks and things that go 'BOOM' aka: Relanex on his third fight.
TheMagister 07-01-07, 08:29 PM	Wow. No mirror image! That made things a lot easier. Funny that you let Shout affect Nexa at all -- since they're grappling, they share a space. If it affects Nexa, it affects Relanex, too. ;) Thanks for the run! TM
Hirumajoe 07-01-07, 09:11 PM	Yay! Interleague forest fight is starting. :) Looking at the tactics, I may even have a chance. Depending on how much damage I eat on the way in... 8d6 Flamestrike + 5d6 Ice Storm = 45.5 average damage... Oww... Edit: Dumb question, are large creatures allowed to fly at 30' in the Canopy of the forest? Elrick's tactics seem to suggest you can.
amalcon 07-01-07, 09:35 PM	@Sjiggie: I don't think it's entirely clear that Saldor can't reach Inzin; for example, in the last situation in the fight, Saldor can still full-run up to Inzin and wait for the attack of opportunity. In other cases, he may be able to move into the central area and attempt to force Inzin to come to him. I did specifically mention both of these tactics. (Edit: Oops, I forgot to specifically mention full runs. My mistake here; as the other tactic has a low chance of working without the running available, that's not a big deal either). Also, if Inzin is using stones from the ground, how is he collecting them while making constant double moves? Finally, Dog seems to have stopped trying to escape entanglement after round 5. His presence might potentially change matters, as he moves as quickly as Inzin's dog.
Yitzi 07-01-07, 10:25 PM	Vantis vs. Yakov is up.
Zevox 07-01-07, 11:32 PM	Okay, it looks like this team fight is going to take quite a while, and my work schedule early this week is bad (I'm working most of tomorrow and Tuesday evening/night), so I have a problem. I'm sure I can finish the team fight in time, but my other remaining fight, not so much. So if anyone wants to pick up Besthira vs Baelin, heres the tactics for it. If no one does... well, I can try to scramble it in before the deadline Wednesday, or stay up Tuesday night doing it or something I suppose. Hey Z feel sorry for you on this one. Well if I hit twice within 30' it may be over 3 times will do it for sure. Blinking making him flat footed will help a lot. Start off by casting invis and go looking for him. I assume he will snipe at me hope the 50% miss chance should help. Rapid fire anytime possible, hopefully he will just want to dive attack me and go melee, just take 5' steps and rapid fire thanks for the run. I'm really, really, really sorry about this. But I can't afford to be sniped by this guy, so my best counter-measure is to be stealthy myself. Start off with potion of Reduce Person in hand, in the front of the square. Drink the potion and move forward. Shift into a bat and fly up into the canopy. I believe I can fly within the canopy when I'm Medium-sized; if not, or when I'm not a bat, making Balance checks to move at half speed in hybrid form shouldn't be a problem. Either way, tap a tattoo of Chameleon. Now, we have two sneaks running around the forest, trying to find each other. Both of us have basically unbeatable Hide checks (assuming Baelin buffs fully). Listen is a remote possibility, if we get really close to each other. But hopefully, I'll get close enough to pick him up with Blindsense or, more likely, I'll autospot him behind a tree or as he moves between hiding places. Plan A) If I successfully find him, shift into hybrid form if I haven't done so already, and fall directly onto him from the canopy. Grapple him: Flurry-grapple first to pin (stopping him from speaking), second to deal damage. Plan B) If Reduce Person wears out, expelling me from the canopy, then I'll need to do this the old-fashioned way: draw my bow, single-move around while staying close to trees and in undergrowth as much as possible(remembering that my Large size actually makes it easier for me to qualify for cover, and thus make a Hide check) and readying to shoot on pinpoint. Go for the grapple if possible, but don't forego an arrow shot or concealment to make it. Otherwise, it'll likely be a straight archery duel. Contingencies/reminders: - Concealment of any kind makes sneak attacks not work. Undergrowth and the canopy both count. Stay in them as much as possible. - If Baelin also moves into the canopy, then we both basically auto-spot each other. Works for me: a straight-up archery duel can only end in my favor. - Darkness of Obscuring Mist will only help me narrow down his location; blindsense and my Seeking bow make these things not obstacles in the slightest. Make sure to stay in concealment (possibly even the concealment granted by those spells), though; I don't want Baelin using that to set up a sneak attack. - Use AoOs to grapple, of course. - If Baelin begins to Blink, forget grappling. Use a full flurry/flurry/claw/bite attack routine or a single shot with my bow instead (and use AoOs to just punch him). - Baelin might in theory go into the swamp. If he does this, don't go in after him unless I'm in danger of a delay penalty (knowing where he is but refusing to go after him). In that case, wade on in and attempt melee/grappling. I move faster than him and have better Listen and Spot, not to mention blindsense and scent, so I should be able to locate and grab him before he can attack me. - I have a potion of Blur for use against sneak-attackers, but there's so much natural concealment here, I shouldn't need it. Use it if he's managed to find a workaround. I think that covers it. Shouldn't be a big problem unless I've missed something major, or Malither comes up with something brilliant. Sorry again about the stealth insanity; good luck. Zevox
Zevox 07-02-07, 12:11 AM	Issue: large creature grapples smaller foe who is riding a large mount. Normally, he would join his foe on the mount. But also by the normal rules hes too large to do so. What happens? A) Large grappler pulls smaller foe off mount? B) Large foe joins smaller foe on mount anyway? C) Something else entirely?? Zevox
Erithmu 07-02-07, 12:53 AM	Issue: large creature grapples smaller foe who is riding a large mount. Normally, he would join his foe on the mount. But also by the normal rules hes too large to do so. What happens? A) Large grappler pulls smaller foe off mount? B) Large foe joins smaller foe on mount anyway? C) Something else entirely?? Zevox Larger foe joins on mount, If mount can no longer carry the weight, both grapplers go to the ground (not the technical prone position) off the mount.
Zevox 07-02-07, 01:19 AM	Alrighty then, its not done, but Valen vs Elric & Izumi is through round 8, and thats as far as I'm going tonight. Its aggravating when folks forget to mention how to cross the rivers in the forest, but we're finally to the main engagement - could be over real quick, or could drag out for a while, depending on the dice, but could go either way I think, so it should be interesting. Zevox
templer10 07-02-07, 01:21 AM	Issue: large creature grapples smaller foe who is riding a large mount. Normally, he would join his foe on the mount. But also by the normal rules hes too large to do so. What happens? A) Large grappler pulls smaller foe off mount? B) Large foe joins smaller foe on mount anyway? C) Something else entirely?? Zevox about grapple- WHAT GRAPPLE? per tactics i should at ALL TIMES be at max height in canopy which were ruled before to be 30 feet high for everyone so he cant reach me to grapple even when large Without some jumps checks. also - even if it did- grimlock and me share space so he should get an Aoe on grapple (especially on a jumping grapple) EDIT - if i remmber correctly - when created the flames created by produce flame are considered a weapon so iam "armed" when valen attempts the grapple - i.e. i should get an AoE (vs touch no less). third - ice storm doesnt have a save - so full damage please. forth- even if he does grapple - when wildshaping i gain HP as if rested for a night so cure up 8 HP + 8 non lethal HP please fifth - Why did you have roar stay at start position? i might have neglected to explisetly state to have him with me But since afterward i didnt mention to call him back from start position and the fact i probably couldnt have (since the forest is so large) he should be with me. sixth - i dont really understand why you didnt have me cast - but anyway as a bear i should have no problem casting (natural spell feat) - assuming i make the concetration checks.
Erithmu 07-02-07, 01:47 AM	about grapple- WHAT GRAPPLE? per tactics i should at ALL TIMES be at max height in canopy which were ruled before to be 30 feet high for everyone so he cant reach me to grapple even when large Without some jumps checks. also - even if it did- grimlock and me share space so he should get an Aoe on grapple (especially on a jumping grapple) third - ice storm doesnt have a save - so full damage please. Deep breath Canopy at 30 ft means the base of the canopy is at 30 ft. which mean that a creature with 10ft of space will be at altitude 20 ft. so that they are not 'in' the canopy. Also Grimlock will not get an AoO on the start of the grapple as the only person that gets to take the AoO is the target of the grapple. Grimlock only has 5 ft of reach, no if the grapple goes to the ground he might get one due to movement, but as it is ... probably not. This is all w/out looking at the fight.
templer10 07-02-07, 02:03 AM	correct me if iam wrong - but after casting produce flame - you are considered "armed" (teh flames in your hand) i remmber last week or so it was discussed about touch spells and result wsa you are armed when holding the charge - and produce flame it's not een holding the charge but creating a weaponlike object (flames).
Usurpator 07-02-07, 02:26 AM	Rubicanti & Nexa vs Relanex Lots of fireworks and things that go 'BOOM' aka: Relanex on his third fight. Thanks for running it! As TM said, no mirror images made it a lot easier. I made several goofs up on our tactics: - I forgot you to PM The Magister's addendum to tactics. - I forgot to erase a previous tactics contingency and the buff routine (sigh, was in a hurry to get them out in time) - From The Magister's initial tactics suggestion I got the impression that a team starts together in the same square now, I guess that's (still) not the case. Also, Nexa in eagle form, I think the +2 cloak of resistance becomes non-functional, reducing her Reflex save by +2, meaning she fails against that first fireball and thus dies when hit by the lightning bolt. Relanex didn't cast dispel magic as per tactics. Shout problem as TM pointed out. Drawing a wand while grappling needs a grapple check (I think) Could you do something about Duskseeker getting killed? I hoped I made it clear from tactics that I specifically tried not to get him killed. I asked for Duskseeker to stay near the ground, and move at sufficient distance from Rubicanti to avoid easy spot and kill angles. Putting Duskseeker in the air and two targets near each other is asking to get fried. That was specifically not my intention. If it was not clear enough from tactics, ok, but I tried especially for the bat not to get killed, since it uses up both of Nexa's only flight abilities on her single fight. Staying near the ground would specifically have the advantage of not incurring falling damage when blasted, and thus probably surviving. Might be some other issues too, but no time now.
Hirumajoe 07-02-07, 07:47 AM	Alrighty then, its not done, but Valen vs Elric & Izumi is through round 8, and thats as far as I'm going tonight. Its aggravating when folks forget to mention how to cross the rivers in the forest, but we're finally to the main engagement - could be over real quick, or could drag out for a while, depending on the dice, but could go either way I think, so it should be interesting. Zevox Oh woops. Yeah thats my bad. In the psicrystal's case, I was just thinking of "climbing" or "walking" on the floor of the river, being the only option it really has. Given that its a rock, and thus more dense than the water or a human, it should have no problem sinking to the floor. As for Valen, he can simply walk through with Freedom of Movement up. As for the psicrystal, not sure what else to do with it in a situation like this. Engaging my primary target (Elrick) first is desirable, and one way to help that situation is to know early on, so I don't stumble into Izumi if possible. I realize the 40' is less than ideal, but people often times take pot shots at it, which gives information back. I guess in this case, it was an extra thing to track in an already track filled fight. If you, or anyone else, has suggestions on what I should have done with the psicrystal, I'm all ears. Otherwise, I guess I can put a clause in don't bother with the psicrystal if there's more than 3 things to track in a fight. Anyways, thanks for running so far. Edit: Just a note that Valen has armor spikes, which in his enlarged state deal 1d8 + 8 lethal damage. Looking at the tactics, I realize I didn't explicitly mention them until the middle, and in regards to attacking directly (with the -4 penalty). So I guess that leaves it to the Pitlord, but I think it makes the most sense to use them. Thanks.
Hirumajoe 07-02-07, 08:05 AM	correct me if iam wrong - but after casting produce flame - you are considered "armed" (teh flames in your hand) i remmber last week or so it was discussed about touch spells and result wsa you are armed when holding the charge - and produce flame it's not een holding the charge but creating a weaponlike object (flames). You are in fact armed. However, you can only make AoOs into squares you threaten. Valen has a 10' reach. You have a 5' reach without a reach weapon. If he makes a grapple check from 10' away, you don't get to make any AoOs. As for moving into the target's square, I know I don't provoke from the target of the grapple (since we're grappling and we don't threaten squares), but I don't know if your mount gets an AoO. All it says is "this movement is free and doesn't count against your movement for the round". If I did move, attack, and move, I wouldn't provoke an AoO from my target for movement in any case because of spring attack. As for casting, you can only cast spells without a somatic component. Cast a Spell You can attempt to cast a spell while grappling or even while pinned (see below), provided its casting time is no more than 1 standard action, it has no somatic component , and you have in hand any material components or focuses you might need. Any spell that requires precise and careful action is impossible to cast while grappling or being pinned. If the spell is one that you can cast while grappling, you must make a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level) or lose the spell. You don’t have to make a successful grapple check to cast the spell. Your wildshape should heal 8 hp. However, Valen has armor spikes, so his grapple damage should be 1d8+8 lethal. I think. Or does that not apply on the initial grab? Ice storm should in fact do full damage. Although I'm not sure if Valen actually needs to activate the boots of haste to get into grapple range since he has Freedom of Movement up and ignores the speed reduction due to it. Doesn't look like it from the map. Which saves him a use according to his tactics. (Presumably to be used in the grapple for an additional attack later). I'm guessing Roar stayed in the start position because you are in the process of teaching him the heel trick and guard trick and thus doesn't know how to follow you yet? As Elrick is in bear form with an AC of 15 + 2 (from Cat's Grace) and Valen has a attack of +8 BAB + 8 Str + 1 [MW] - 1 Size + 1 Haste -4 Grapple = +12 I believe Valen should be hitting about 80% of the time on the main attacks and 55% of the time on the low BAB ones. Hopefully this will go quick one way or the other. So in summary, looks like Valen should be at 100 - 14 - 17 - 2 = 67 health, Grimlock may or may not get an AoO at Valen's dex-less,dodge-less AC (25), and I don't think Valen used Haste on that first grapple attempt (although I could be wrong on that point). And Valen will be doing 1d8+8 lethal damage with spikes. And Izumi will probably be killing Valen with his 25 AC somewhere in the next 3-4 rounds. I'm thinking I need to make up some sheets for Valen in different forms to make Pitlord's lives easier... And then send them along with tactics, as Valen's sheet is too long as it is.
Erithmu 07-02-07, 08:57 AM	Thanks for running it! As TM said, no mirror images made it a lot easier. I made several goofs up on our tactics: - I forgot you to PM The Magister's addendum to tactics. - I forgot to erase a previous tactics contingency and the buff routine (sigh, was in a hurry to get them out in time) - From The Magister's initial tactics suggestion I got the impression that a team starts together in the same square now, I guess that's (still) not the case. Also, Nexa in eagle form, I think the +2 cloak of resistance becomes non-functional, reducing her Reflex save by +2, meaning she fails against that first fireball and thus dies when hit by the lightning bolt.Hrum .. that will affect a few things. Relanex didn't cast dispel magic as per tactics.I explained why he didn't which was the fact that he has no ranks in knowledge (nature) to assume that Nexa is an eagle nor any way of detecting that. I'm sure that after some of the grappling he would have figured it out, but I'm inclined to let that stand as is. Also he was out of range when he threw the fireball (distance was 260ish feet if I remember and he had already taken his move action) Shout problem as TM pointed out.Will be come a non-factor after Nexa dies. But this is a valid point. I guess I was using common sense and didn't see how a vocal projection could hit himself. Looking at it now I'm pretty sure I rolled the wrong damage too. Drawing a wand while grappling needs a grapple check (I think)Wand was in hand since start of fight. Could you do something about Duskseeker getting killed? I hoped I made it clear from tactics that I specifically tried not to get him killed. I asked for Duskseeker to stay near the ground, and move at sufficient distance from Rubicanti to avoid easy spot and kill angles. Putting Duskseeker in the air and two targets near each other is asking to get fried. That was specifically not my intention. If it was not clear enough from tactics, ok, but I tried especially for the bat not to get killed, since it uses up both of Nexa's only flight abilities on her single fight. Staying near the ground would specifically have the advantage of not incurring falling damage when blasted, and thus probably surviving. Might be some other issues too, but no time now.I looked at all the tricks and most of them do not give room for a 'follow' like command that you were looking for. Heck I couldn't find a trick that would have allowed Duskseeker to specifically follow someone else. If you have a specific trick (or set of tricks) that fulfills the requirements that you are looking for then I'll be happy to edit, but the closest thing that I can see is the heel trick. I'll revisit the fight after class.
Zevox 07-02-07, 09:13 AM	about grapple- WHAT GRAPPLE? per tactics i should at ALL TIMES be at max height in canopy which were ruled before to be 30 feet high for everyone so he cant reach me to grapple even when large Without some jumps checks. Erithmu is correct about this. With a large creature you have a 10' height - the top of your space is at 30', the bottom at 20', and he can reach that. also - even if it did- grimlock and me share space so he should get an Aoe on grapple (especially on a jumping grapple) Erithmu is again correct. Only the target of the grapple gets an AoO against it. EDIT - if i remmber correctly - when created the flames created by produce flame are considered a weapon so iam "armed" when valen attempts the grapple - i.e. i should get an AoE (vs touch no less). Hirumajoe is correct. 5' reach vs 10' reach = no AoO possible. third - ice storm doesnt have a save - so full damage please. My mistake - will be corrected. forth- even if he does grapple - when wildshaping i gain HP as if rested for a night so cure up 8 HP + 8 non lethal HP please Hm, I thought that was specifically a part of polymorphing that wild shape didn't give? *looks it up* Nope, its there. Will edit it in. fifth - Why did you have roar stay at start position? i might have neglected to explisetly state to have him with me But since afterward i didnt mention to call him back from start position and the fact i probably couldnt have (since the forest is so large) he should be with me. Because you never accounted for giving him a command. Handle Animal allies do not automatically do anything except defend if they see their master attacked - you always have to spend a move action giving them orders at some point if you want them to do anything but respond with their defend trick. That includes following you. Sorry, but this is a limitation of the ally type you need to account for. I could perhaps edit it in as early as you have a spare move action, but that isn't until round 5. And in any event, even if he had been following you, he'd get mired in the bog since your movement request has you flying over it and hes impeded by it. Possibly he wouldn't get out before the majority of the fight was over with how slow he'd be. sixth - i dont really understand why you didnt have me cast - but anyway as a bear i should have no problem casting (natural spell feat) - assuming i make the concetration checks. You can't cast spells with somatic components in a grapple, which all of the spells you want to cast have. Your only real options in the situation is to touch him with your flame spell or grapple for damage, and your tactics support doing the latter when your plan is so disrupted. Cast a Spell: You can attempt to cast a spell while grappling or even while pinned (see below), provided its casting time is no more than 1 standard action, it has no somatic component, and you have in hand any material components or focuses you might need. Any spell that requires precise and careful action is impossible to cast while grappling or being pinned. If the spell is one that you can cast while grappling, you must make a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level) or lose the spell. You don’t have to make a successful grapple check to cast the spell. Edit: Just a note that Valen has armor spikes, which in his enlarged state deal 1d8 + 8 lethal damage. Looking at the tactics, I realize I didn't explicitly mention them until the middle, and in regards to attacking directly (with the -4 penalty). So I guess that leaves it to the Pitlord, but I think it makes the most sense to use them. Thanks. Ah, missed that. Will edit it in. Zevox
templer10 07-02-07, 09:32 AM	You can't cast spells with somatic components in a grapple, which all of the spells you want to cast have. Your only real options in the situation is to touch him with your flame spell or grapple for damage, and your tactics support doing the latter when your plan is so disrupted. Zevox Actually my plans calls for Using spells unless nothing else works so i should be touching in grapple with the Produce flame since my grapple for dmg contingency is only if nothing else works. please note - that my to hit with melee touch spells is MUCH higher as a polar bear. EDIT - also- if ihave fallen off grimlock i should be able to do a ride check to negate first 10 feet (which i auto sucseed in).
Zevox 07-02-07, 11:00 AM	EDIT - also- if ihave fallen off grimlock i should be able to do a ride check to negate first 10 feet (which i auto sucseed in). Hm, there is the soft fall ability, but it doesn't seem like it was designed for this. Certainly it doesn't specify a distance of the fall to negate damage - it seems to assume the mount is on the ground, and you're falling because the mount was knocked out or knocked down. Still, its there, so it should probably get used, even if it seems a bit outside its intended use. I'll treat it as you said, negating the first 10'/1d6 fall damage. Zevox
Usurpator 07-02-07, 11:56 AM	I explained why he didn't which was the fact that he has no ranks in knowledge (nature) to assume that Nexa is an eagle nor any way of detecting that. I'm sure that after some of the grappling he would have figured it out, but I'm inclined to let that stand as is. Also he was out of range when he threw the fireball (distance was 260ish feet if I remember and he had already taken his move action) No problem with that reasoning, but I think it should go both ways IMO. Either he realizes that it is Nexa, and thus will target her with dispel magic, or he doesn't realize it, but then he won't fireball her too, since both tactics were contingent on using either Nexa or Rubicanti as target, and not some random eagle, summoned creature or something else. Will be come a non-factor after Nexa dies. But this is a valid point. I guess I was using common sense and didn't see how a vocal projection could hit himself. Looking at it now I'm pretty sure I rolled the wrong damage too. I agree it's a bit abstracted, but on the other hand, in the middle of a tangle of claws, feathers and flailing limbs, I can imagine how he would hit himself. I looked at all the tricks and most of them do not give room for a 'follow' like command that you were looking for. Heck I couldn't find a trick that would have allowed Duskseeker to specifically follow someone else. If you have a specific trick (or set of tricks) that fulfills the requirements that you are looking for then I'll be happy to edit, but the closest thing that I can see is the heel trick. The description of heel says the animal will follow, it doesn't specify the distance a creature will follow you. I can imagine that you can specify it, I also can imagine you can't. Ultimately it's a Pitlord call, but the spirit of our tactics is obvious, if you decide it can't be done and there is an easy other way to achieve the same effect, I think you should do it. Nexa can command as free action, so she could just command to 'guard', then fly up and only command to heel after that. But again, it's ultimately up to you since I consider it a judgement call.
Zevox 07-02-07, 12:05 PM	Valen Sky vs Elric Flamebrother & Izumi is done. A close fight where the dice were the decider. If nobody picks up Besthira vs Baelin, I may just be able to run it between tonight and tomorrow still since that fight ended so quickly after the combatants found each other. Note that it will almost surely be late if I do that though, so if anyone wants to pick it up to get it done before the tuesday deadline, go ahead and do so, the tactics are here. Zevox
templer10 07-02-07, 12:12 PM	Valen Sky vs Elric Flamebrother & Izumi is done. A close fight where the dice were the decider. If nobody picks up Besthira vs Baelin, I may just be able to run it between tonight and tomorrow still since that fight ended so quickly after the combatants found each other. Note that it will almost surely be late if I do that though, so if anyone wants to pick it up to get it done before the tuesday deadline, go ahead and do so, the tactics are here. Zevox Thanks for the run - yet another reason to get freedom of movement... p.s.s- did you know that exept once in the forest and ocne in the aren all i do is stupid closed quereters battles - i think MWB hate me... (joke).
Zevox 07-02-07, 12:16 PM	Thanks for the run - yet another reason to get freedom of movement... p.s.s- did you know that exept once in the forest and ocne in the aren all i do is stupid closed quereters battles - i think MWB hate me... (joke). Heh, I have similar luck with Ceilia. All her fights seem to occur in the cavern or arena - shes only had two fights in her entire career from ECL 3-9 that occurred in her favored map, the plains. Though I guess I should be thankful shes also had only one in the sewer, which is her worst map. Zevox
templer10 07-02-07, 12:22 PM	Heh, I have similar luck with Ceilia. All her fights seem to occur in the cavern or arena - shes only had two fights in her entire career from ECL 3-9 that occurred in her favored map, the plains. Though I guess I should be thankful shes also had only one in the sewer, which is her worst map. Zevox The worst map actualyl for elrick is probably the sewere also since even in teh cavern he can summon Blockers for a couple of rounds and he usually dont really need more then that to nuke somone down. btw- i imagine you thanks the COCO gods that valen didnt do that full cover in water thing that peeps like so much- althrough seeing 1 unicorn, 1 giant eagle, 2 hipogryphs and err 5 i think wolves (oh and lion and dire bat and izumi) on the same battlefield could have been fun, HECTIC, but fun. (as long as i dont have to run it ty very much)
templer10 07-02-07, 12:26 PM	Lol - iam just watching the rolelr for Longshot's fight and iam crying a little inside every time i see a dorja cahrge going - some peeps dont know when to give up (mitza) doing a CLW contest + hide vs 6d6+6 dmg dorja...
Zevox 07-02-07, 12:37 PM	Lol - iam just watching the rolelr for Longshot's fight and iam crying a little inside every time i see a dorja cahrge going - some peeps dont know when to give up (mitza) doing a CLW contest + hide vs 6d6+6 dmg dorja... Heh, if thats what shes up to, I applaud her for it. Better to make a character using a dorje with that God-awful broken power pay for his victories than just give up because he has it. :P Zevox
TelinArtho 07-02-07, 12:48 PM	CRAP! I just finished the FFA and found out something very illegal about Sybil - her bronze griffon creates a CR4 ally. In the fight when she activates it - it doesn't count against her rewards - however, if it is prebuffed - it does. At ECL7 - a CR4 is not a valid ally! Since I'm none too keen on editing the fight right now to fix that (and because it is something that someone should've noticed (myself, Mitza or either of her opponents)) - I'm going to adjust rewards as if it were a valid ally (just with a higher percentage according to the CR). Appeals can be made to Pitlords/elder vote on the matter.
templer10 07-02-07, 12:55 PM	CRAP! I just finished the FFA and found out something very illegal about Sybil - her bronze griffon creates a CR4 ally. In the fight when she activates it - it doesn't count against her rewards - however, if it is prebuffed - it does. At ECL7 - a CR4 is not a valid ally! Since I'm none too keen on editing the fight right now to fix that (and because it is something that someone should've noticed (myself, Mitza or either of her opponents)) - I'm going to adjust rewards as if it were a valid ally (just with a higher percentage according to the CR). Appeals can be made to Pitlords/elder vote on the matter. no problem for me. p.s. - i hope you added the political career for me - it's not mentioned up in the sheet but i wrote it in tactics and ill put it in sheet for next week.
Hirumajoe 07-02-07, 12:55 PM	Valen Sky vs Elric Flamebrother & Izumi is done. A close fight where the dice were the decider. Zevox Thanks for the run. Can't argue with double 1's in round 9. :) For future reference, does Freedom of Movement work on natural obstacles, like light Undergrowth? Or just water?
TelinArtho 07-02-07, 01:07 PM	Sybil ap Kalten (MitzaVolchenko) vs Longshot (templer10) vs Tezca (Usurpator) [Free-for-All] is up.
Zevox 07-02-07, 01:08 PM	Thanks for the run. Can't argue with double 1's in round 9. :) For future reference, does Freedom of Movement work on natural obstacles, like light Undergrowth? Or just water? As its written, it works on anything that impedes movement, natural or magical. Aerryl Naladar used to use a Freedom of Movement shared with her Dire Bat mount to ignore the impeded flight of the forest, for instance. Zevox
Macbrea 07-02-07, 01:16 PM	Rubicanti & Nexa vs Relanex Lots of fireworks and things that go 'BOOM' aka: Relanex on his third fight. First my fireball shouldn't be from my wand but from Relanex's memmory. For DC 22. Round 4: Eagle has Dex 15 Enlarge Person applies -2 size penalty to dex No gear in alternate form. Monk 2 = Reflex +3 Druid 5 = Reflex +4 Total Reflex save = +8 Roll was 1d20+10 = 23. It should have been 1d20+8 = 21. As a result Nexa takes 33 Damage on that round. This will result in Nexa dieing on next round. And the fight continuing from that point.
Usurpator 07-02-07, 01:21 PM	Roll was 1d20+10 = 23. It should have been 1d20+8 = 21. As a result Nexa takes 33 Damage on that round. This will result in Nexa dieing on next round. And the fight continuing from that point. I pointed this out already, but wouldn't you agree that your tactics say to cast Dispel Magic first and should be followed?
Hirumajoe 07-02-07, 01:22 PM	As its written, it works on anything that impedes movement, natural or magical. Aerryl Naladar used to use a Freedom of Movement shared with her Dire Bat mount to ignore the impeded flight of the forest, for instance. Zevox In that case, I think you're going to hate me... I just realized in round 7 of the Valen/Elrick/Izumi fight, Valen began within 60' + 10' of Elrick. He could have activated his boots of speed and reached Elrick rather than spending a round moving closer. Which would move all his grapple checks up a round. It would also mean no Ice storm (less 17 damage) but moves Elrick's touch attacks up a round also. This means he might kill Elrick before the round 10 Izumi hit deals 24 damage. Meaning he might be out of the grapple and it misses. I'll leave it up to you on whether thats worth editing or not, given your stated busy schedule.
Usurpator 07-02-07, 01:23 PM	Sybil ap Kalten (MitzaVolchenko) vs Longshot (templer10) vs Tezca (Usurpator) [Free-for-All] is up. Hi Telin, thanks for running it. Looking it over I see a lot of things happening that I find strange, but I'll have to look at it in more detail (and with map) to properly comment on it. EDIT: Also, could you link the rolls, I see a lot of AC 15 and 16 being hit, which is, with a +13 to hit, quite unlikely to me, but can't check it if I don't see the rolls
TelinArtho 07-02-07, 01:24 PM	Hi Telin, thanks for running it. Looking it over I see a lot of things happening that I find strange, but I'll have to look at it in more detail (and with map) to properly comment on it. Strange? Well - let me know if you find an error (other than the griffon...).
Macbrea 07-02-07, 01:27 PM	I pointed this out already, but wouldn't you agree that your tactics say to cast Dispel Magic first and should be followed? He noted that I lack the ability to tell that the eagle is either Nexa or Rubicanti. That is a pitlord ruling on Knowledge, what spells I have up at the time and his decisions upon the scene. He decided that I couldn't tell it was either character. I should immediately dispel rubicanti when I do see him though. The other thing I noticed is Relanex's AC is listed as 14 (MA)? Odd. 10 + (Mage Armor 4) + ring of protection (+1 deflect) + dexterity 16 (+3) does appear to be 18. I try not to argue wether the tactics were followed exactly. It only makes me annoyed, when they get improvised. I do normally argue rules flubs though.
templer10 07-02-07, 01:30 PM	In that case, I think you're going to hate me... I just realized in round 7 of the Valen/Elrick/Izumi fight, Valen began within 60' + 10' of Elrick. He could have activated his boots of speed and reached Elrick rather than spending a round moving closer. Which would move all his grapple checks up a round. It would also mean no Ice storm (less 17 damage) but moves Elrick's touch attacks up a round also. This means he might kill Elrick before the round 10 Izumi hit deals 24 damage. Meaning he might be out of the grapple and it misses. I'll leave it up to you on whether thats worth editing or not, given your stated busy schedule. Actually no - i counted it's exacly 60 feet to get to 10 reach and since you need to also jump 5 feet you are short on move.
templer10 07-02-07, 01:34 PM	Tiris vs maeglin is done (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12935158&postcount=1044) - no huge suprise there.
Macbrea 07-02-07, 01:35 PM	One odd note for people running Izumi... She does have 10ft reach and has no real need to stand adjacent to her opponents. :P Otherwise, I am fine with the run. As pretty much she didn't do much but swing a couple time and look pretty.
templer10 07-02-07, 01:43 PM	One odd note for people running Izumi... She does have 10ft reach and has no real need to stand adjacent to her opponents. :P Otherwise, I am fine with the run. As pretty much she didn't do much but swing a couple time and look pretty. pretty nice dmg at the end there.
templer10 07-02-07, 01:46 PM	Hi Telin, thanks for running it. Looking it over I see a lot of things happening that I find strange, but I'll have to look at it in more detail (and with map) to properly comment on it. EDIT: Also, could you link the rolls, I see a lot of AC 15 and 16 being hit, which is, with a +13 to hit, quite unlikely to me, but can't check it if I don't see the rolls the rolls are here (http://www.hwx.it/wizards.com/dice.php?sid=1641) would appricaite that if you have concerns you voice them soon since i need to edit the sheet (perferably today). p.s. the low Rolls that hit are touch attacks from energy retort.
Usurpator 07-02-07, 01:49 PM	[Round 3] Tezca moves to (28,5) and bites at the horse [22 vs AC14, hit; Dmg 1d6+4=9] [Soft fall auto-success vs DC10] (Longshot is at (29,5) It is unclear to me why you have Tezca attack with his bite. He should have attacked with his Glaive. He was only supposed to use his bite (and drop the Glaive) if a full attack was possible (as stated in tactics). Unfortunately Tezca just came up 5 ft. short the previous round. Nothing to do about that though. Also, does not make any difference in the fight. [Round 4] Tezca drops his guisarme and full attacks Longshot (to disarm, then for damage) [11-4+5=12 vs 17, fail; 23 vs 1, success; 15 vs AC16+4, miss] A full attack is three attacks, two at +13, one at +8, first to disarm, then for damage. I cant tell what you are doing with this notation, but I'm not seeing any damage, nor any succesfull disarm rolls. I'm missing information. [Round 5] Tezca takes a 5ft step to (29,4) and full attacks Longshot [26,29,20 vs AC16+4, 2 hits; Dmg 1d4+7=10,11; 1d6+4=5] Can't attack with claw that holds Dorje, attack moved down to AoO below If it is not the Dorje of vigor (can't tell what Dorje is disarmed from fight notation) Tezca can immediately tell because he can't use it. I have no idea why he is keeping it in his claws and thus preventing him from using a full attack. Same problem occurs in round 6. Both should have one extra attack IMO. [Round 8] Tezca full attacks Longshot [18,16 vs AC16+4, miss] Tezca has a Dorje of Vigor in his claws. He is also wounded. Note this contingency from my tactics concerning said Dorje: Use it on myself whenever wounded, picking it up if needed, or just continue holding it in Tezca’s mouth if he is forced into Leopard shape. Instead you have me attacking. This is directly counter to my stated tactics, and I'll appreciate it if you can correct it. Possibly I have some further comments after I see the die rolls. As you can see, mostly small issues except for not using the Dorje. But even small issues may add up.
Hirumajoe 07-02-07, 01:54 PM	Actually no - i counted it's exacly 60 feet to get to 10 reach and since you need to also jump 5 feet you are short on move. Last dumb question, for a creature with 10' reach, how are diagonal counted? 1 diagonal = 5' or 10'? If its the later, then yes, I agree Valen can't reach Elrick. If its the former, he can move 55' feet, jump up 5' vertically with a 20 Jump check (which with his +20 modifier while hasted isn't hard) and then reach 1 diagonal and 1 up square to reach Elrick. But right now, I can't find which it is. Anyone know off hand? Thanks.
templer10 07-02-07, 01:55 PM	If it is not the Dorje of vigor (can't tell what Dorje is disarmed from fight notation) Tezca can immediately tell because he can't use it. I have no idea why he is keeping it in his claws and thus preventing him from using a full attack. Same problem occurs in round 6. Both should have one extra attack IMO. actualy terza can't immediatly tell - since dorja's are power trigger items: "power Trigger - This is the activation method for dorjes and psicrowns. It requires the special knowledge of power manifestation that a character of the appropriate class would know, and the formation of the appropriate command thought. If a power is on a character’s power list, the character knows how to use a power trigger item that stores that power. The user must still determine what power is stored in the item before she can activate it." so you need to spend some time or some such with an item (use psicraft possibly?) to be able to lean what power is stored there. btw- using someone's else items.... uncool.
Abyssal Stalker 07-02-07, 02:01 PM	btw- using someone's else items.... uncool. Not so, but smart. Allthough you should notice that it has been ruled in the past that when the opponent uses your items, those charges don't actually count. So you can't steal someone else's wands and blast them into nothingness and that way harm your fellow players.
TelinArtho 07-02-07, 02:01 PM	It is unclear to me why you have Tezca attack with his bite. He should have attacked with his Glaive. He was only supposed to use his bite (and drop the Glaive) if a full attack was possible (as stated in tactics). Unfortunately Tezca just came up 5 ft. short the previous round. Nothing to do about that though. Also, does not make any difference in the fight. Well - you seemed to prefer to get your opponent into a place where he couldn't 5ft step to safety. While attacking with a bite might not have been the intent - I read the threatening area as more important in your tactics. [Round 4] Tezca drops his guisarme and full attacks Longshot (to disarm, then for damage) [11-4+5=12 vs 17, fail; 23 vs 1, success; 15 vs AC16+4, miss] Sorry if you are not accustomed to my notation. In general I group attacks together if it is easy to do so. When a character wants to disarm/sunder/trip, etc - I have to run each set of rolls separately. For the above round - 11-4+5=12 vs 17 is the first attack. The 11 was from the striked out roll in round 3, modified by +5 (because it wasn't your bite) and -4 (because I forgot the light weapon penalty on the initial roll). Your opponent rolled a 17 to resist (20+1-4) The second claw attacks was a modified 23 vs 1 - and is noted as a success. Your third attack (your bite) is 15 vs AC16+4 and is a miss. If it is not the Dorje of vigor (can't tell what Dorje is disarmed from fight notation) Tezca can immediately tell because he can't use it. I have no idea why he is keeping it in his claws and thus preventing him from using a full attack. Same problem occurs in round 6. Both should have one extra attack IMO. Your actions were to keep the dorje(s) away from your opponent. Stowing it would take a move action (preventing a full attack) and provoke an AoO from the griffon. Dropping it enables Longshot to pick it up. If you want to find out whether you can use it or not - you have to spend a standard action to do so. At that point - you hadn't seen Longshot use any dorje - so the effect of this one is unknown. You do not have the knowledge of the "appropriate command-thought" to activate the dorje - hence why I skipped this portion. Dropping the dorjes is counter to the benefit of disarming them - if you wanted to drop them - why take them in your hands in the first place? If I disarm with natural weapons, I have the option to grab the disarmed item instead of it dropping to the floor, I will use the grab option.
Usurpator 07-02-07, 02:02 PM	the rolls are here (http://www.hwx.it/wizards.com/dice.php?sid=1641) would appricaite that if you have concerns you voice them soon since i need to edit the sheet (perferably today). p.s. the low Rolls that hit are touch attacks from energy retort. Actually, the rolls on the roller confuse me a bit. I see Tezca disarming in round 3 in the roller, but in round 4 in the combat... I think rounds 2 and 3 got merged into one... Also, Soft Fall is DC 15, not DC 10 as Telin stated in fight. I have no idea that if you fall of your mount you actually end up prone, regardless of the result. To me it seems that soft fall you manage to 'roll with the fall', but do end up prone. In either case, someone falling without ending up prone seems contradictory. Ending up prone also has several disadvantages with it, notably a lower AC, and an AoO if you try to stand. Soft fall skill avoids damage but does not avoid falling in itself I think.
templer10 07-02-07, 02:05 PM	Actually, the rolls on the roller confuse me a bit. I see Tezca disarming in round 3 in the roller, but in round 4 in the combat... I think rounds 2 and 3 got merged into one... Also, Soft Fall is DC 15, not DC 10 as Telin stated in fight. I have no idea that if you fall of your mount you actually end up prone, regardless of the result. To me it seems that soft fall you manage to 'roll with the fall', but do end up prone. In either case, someone falling without ending up prone seems contradictory. Ending up prone also has several disadvantages with it, notably a lower AC, and an AoO if you try to stand. Soft fall skill avoids damage but does not avoid falling in itself I think. If you fall - the only penalty (possibly) is damage - you dont end up prone no matter what- might not make sense but it's the rules.
TelinArtho 07-02-07, 02:05 PM	Actually, the rolls on the roller confuse me a bit. I see Tezca disarming in round 3 in the roller, but in round 4 in the combat... I think rounds 2 and 3 got merged into one... Also, Soft Fall is DC 15, not DC 10 as Telin stated in fight. I have no idea that if you fall of your mount you actually end up prone, regardless of the result. To me it seems that soft fall you manage to 'roll with the fall', but do end up prone. In either case, someone falling without ending up prone seems contradictory. Ending up prone also has several disadvantages with it, notably a lower AC, and an AoO if you try to stand. Soft fall skill avoids damage but does not avoid falling in itself I think. I made a mistake on the DC - will fix that now. As to whether standing or not - it has been consistently run here that a successful soft fall results in the character standing while a failure results in the character being prone. If you want to get a clarification on the matter - you can take it to the courtroom - but it won't change this fight. EDIT - Roll added - Roll was a 17, modified by +9 for a total of 26 vs DC15. Will add this to the fight if more edits are needed.
Usurpator 07-02-07, 02:08 PM	You do not have the knowledge of the "appropriate command-thought" to activate the dorje - hence why I skipped this portion. Dropping the dorjes is counter to the benefit of disarming them - if you wanted to drop them - why take them in your hands in the first place? To get them out of the hands of Longshot of course. He can pick it back up after I drop them, but him 5 ft. stepping away and also inviting an AoO for doing so makes this less likely. And I can't know in advance which of his Dorje's is the vigor dorje I really want, so I just have to disarm them all, keep them in my claws and feel if it is a vigor dorje or otherwise. If it is not, I can drop it, if it is, I can use it. Also, I do have the appropriate command thought: Power Trigger: This is the activation method for dorjes and psicrowns. It requires the special knowledge of power manifestation that a character of the appropriate class would know, and the formation of the appropriate command thought. If a power is on a character’s power list, the character knows how to use a power trigger item that stores that power. The user must still determine what power is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a power trigger item is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. I don't know how else I must read this, but the text clearly says that if I have the power on my list, I know how to use the item, including formulating the appropriate command thought.
TelinArtho 07-02-07, 02:08 PM	If you fall - the only penalty (possibly) is damage - you dont end up prone no matter what- might not make sense but it's the rules. Actually - that's not the way it has been run. A failed Soft fall check results in the former rider as prone. A successful check results in the former rider as standing.
Usurpator 07-02-07, 02:12 PM	If you fall - the only penalty (possibly) is damage - you dont end up prone no matter what- might not make sense but it's the rules. Where does it say you don't end up prone in the rules? If you fall, you end up prone, that sort of speaks of itself. A grease spell covers a solid surface with a layer of slippery grease. Any creature in the area when the spell is cast must make a successful Reflex save or fall. Is this creature prone after falling or not? Note that nowhere in the grease spell does it say the falling target ends up prone, probably because it seems the only logical conclusion. Soft falling means ending up prone without taking damage.
templer10 07-02-07, 02:13 PM	I don't know how else I must read this, but the text clearly says that if I have the power on my list, I know how to use the item, including formulating the appropriate command thought. you should continue reading - The user must still determine what power is stored in the item before she can activate it - since you didnt know you needed to take a standart action to learn it (At best - personaly should take longer i think).
TelinArtho 07-02-07, 02:14 PM	Just realized another error I made - I didn't make a Control shape check on Tezca in round 7, when he takes 20 damage. If I edit the fight, I will include this check as well - and since he automatically fails (1d20+3 vs DC25), he wouldn't be able to use the dorje anyway.
Hirumajoe 07-02-07, 02:19 PM	Ok, I think I found it. From the revision spotlight of all places, I found: Reach Weapons: Most creatures of Medium or smaller size have a reach of only 5 feet. This means that they can make melee attacks only against creatures up to 5 feet (1 square) away. However, Small and Medium creatures wielding reach weapons (such as a longspear) threaten more squares than a typical creature. For instance, a longspear-wielding human threatens all squares 10 feet (2 squares) away, even diagonally. (This is an exception to the rule that 2 squares of diagonal distance is measured as 15 feet.) In addition, most creatures larger than Medium have a natural reach of 10 feet or more; see Big and Little Creatures in Combat. So Valen can reach up 2 squares directly diagonally. When hasted he has a +20 jump check, allowing him to pass a 5' high jump automatically (DC 20). He has more than 20' to run to his final position, and is unhindered by brush. According to the following map Valen's path uses 55' of movement for Valen, leaving 5' for the jump up, and then a diagonal and up space for the 10' reach. On round 7. http://www.hwx.it/coco/coco.php;v=1;map=forest;a=Name,L,51,57,E lrick;c=Name,L,62,62,52,59,Valen I think the above is correct.
MindWandererB 07-02-07, 02:21 PM	Last dumb question, for a creature with 10' reach, how are diagonal counted? 1 diagonal = 5' or 10'? If its the later, then yes, I agree Valen can't reach Elrick. If its the former, he can move 55' feet, jump up 5' vertically with a 20 Jump check (which with his +20 modifier while hasted isn't hard) and then reach 1 diagonal and 1 up square to reach Elrick. But right now, I can't find which it is. Anyone know off hand? Thanks. This is one of the strangest rules in D&D. 1 Diagonal = 5 feet (as normal.) 2 Diagonals = 10 feet (special for reach; it's usually 15.) 3 diagonals = 20 feet (as normal.) ... and as normal from there on out.
Usurpator 07-02-07, 02:23 PM	you should continue reading - The user must still determine what power is stored in the item before she can activate it - since you didnt know you needed to take a standart action to learn it (At best - personaly should take longer i think). Please stop making up rules. If you go on a quote a rule provide support for it, what you say is simply stated nowhere. If a power is on a character’s power list, the character knows how to use a power trigger item that stores that power. There is no mention of a standard action. Since the dorje of vigor is the only dorje from Longshot Tezca can use, any dorje he knows how to use must be the dorje of vigor, so he will use it without having determined what it does. Or, in your terms, he uses a standard action to determine what the dorje does, and lo and behold, after he activates it blindly he discovers it is a dorje of vigor!
Usurpator 07-02-07, 02:26 PM	As to whether standing or not - it has been consistently run here that a successful soft fall results in the character standing while a failure results in the character being prone. If you want to get a clarification on the matter - you can take it to the courtroom - but it won't change this fight. Oh, and Telin, agreed. If it has been run consistently this way, it should not affect this fight, even if the consistent interpretation has been wrong.
templer10 07-02-07, 02:27 PM	Ok, I think I found it. From the revision spotlight of all places, I found: So Valen can reach up 2 squares directly diagonally. When hasted he has a +20 jump check, allowing him to pass a 5' high jump automatically (DC 20). He has more than 20' to run to his final position, and is unhindered by brush. According to the following map Valen's path uses 55' of movement for Valen, leaving 5' for the jump up, and then a diagonal and up space for the 10' reach. On round 7. http://www.hwx.it/coco/coco.php;v=1;map=forest;a=Name,L,51,57,E lrick;c=Name,L,62,62,52,59,Valen I think the above is correct. not sure about that - anyway - you know that hit on round 10 still hits since izumi still had flank from my animal companion (who isnt on the map for some odd reason.
Hirumajoe 07-02-07, 02:38 PM	This is how I see it playing out in my mind with preserving all the attack rolls. Round 7: Valen runs up and makes grapple check (from round 8) (Haste 1) Hp = 56 Elrick shifts to bear. (No Ice Storm) Hp = 41 Grimlock fails to grapple. Izumi instead of move/shooting, just move/moves. Round 8: Valen full attacks and whiffs badly (from round 9) (Haste 2) Hp = 56 Elrick touches twice (fround round 9) (10,8 damage) Hp = 41 Grimlock hits for 14 damage Izumi swings and misses (from round 7 attack) Round 9: Valen full attacks and hits. Hp = 24 Elrick touches twice for 21. Hp = 9 Izumi misses (from round 9) Grimlock??? Needs a new roll. If it hits, Valen dies, if it doesn't he lives with 3 hp. Round 10: Valen full attacks: Needs new rolls. ??? One hit sends Elrick unconcsious, two kill outright. Valen is no long grappling. Valen designates a new dodge budy of Izumi (the most dangerous member) getting +1 AC. If Elrick is bleeding out, Grimlock attacks vs AC 30 Izumi misses AC 30 31 because of haste. And we go from there, looking at 20s to hit Valen.
templer10 07-02-07, 02:52 PM	This is how I see it playing out in my mind with preserving all the attack rolls. Round 7: Valen runs up and makes grapple check (from round 8) (Haste 1) Hp = 56 Elrick shifts to bear. (No Ice Storm) Hp = 41 Grimlock fails to grapple. Izumi instead of move/shooting, just move/moves. Round 8: Valen full attacks and whiffs badly (from round 9) (Haste 2) Hp = 56 Elrick touches twice (fround round 9) (10,8 damage) Hp = 41 Grimlock hits for 14 damage Izumi swings and misses (from round 8 attack) Round 9: Valen full attacks and hits. Hp = 24 Elrick touches twice for 21. Hp = 9 Izumi misses (from round 9) Grimlock??? Needs a new roll. If it hits, Valen dies, if it doesn't he lives with 3 hp. Round 10: Valen full attacks: Needs new rolls. ??? One hit sends Elrick unconcsious, two kill outright. Valen is no long grappling. Valen designates a new dodge budy of Izumi (the most dangerous member) getting +1 AC. If Elrick is bleeding out, Grimlock attacks vs AC 30 Izumi misses AC 30 31 because of haste. And we go from there, looking at 20s to hit Valen. Izumi now misses since Elrick, Grimlock and here is ther problem i have with all this exact movement and jumping from so and so feet away - first you didnt mention it in tactics. second- i looked at elrick's movements and they werent always optiomal - i could have ended movement much further away in round 6 and still have hit you with the spells. since you want your movements to be super optimal i want m movements to be super optimal which means instead of heading towards you directly i will be heading towards i Should be moving diagnoaly to behind izumi more or less - to use her as a meat shield - it would be more optimal after all - or i can go some other way that is more optimal but you get the picture. i think what happened is what happened in tabletop - not always the most optimal thing is being done in a response to a situation - You shouldnt have the benefit of hindsight and exact meserments etc to calculate the exact right thing you need to do.
Hirumajoe 07-02-07, 03:03 PM	You're right in the fact that Elrick's movement probably is suboptimal. I'll leave it up to Zevox if he thinks its worth doing (or approriate). I admit to not being impartial, but what I'm presenting at the moment is mostly a set of rules which make one of my lines in my tactics trigger. As for not having this explicit movement in my tactics, I direct you to the following lines: If within a 60' move + 10' reach of Elrick. Activate Boots of Haste. Single move to within reach range of Elrick. Make jump check to go up 5' if necessary. Once within range, make a grapple attempt. If that doesn't describe the exact maneuver I suggested, I don't know what does.
Erithmu 07-02-07, 03:17 PM	He noted that I lack the ability to tell that the eagle is either Nexa or Rubicanti. That is a pitlord ruling on Knowledge, what spells I have up at the time and his decisions upon the scene. He decided that I couldn't tell it was either character. I should immediately dispel rubicanti when I do see him though. The other thing I noticed is Relanex's AC is listed as 14 (MA)? Odd. 10 + (Mage Armor 4) + ring of protection (+1 deflect) + dexterity 16 (+3) does appear to be 18. I try not to argue wether the tactics were followed exactly. It only makes me annoyed, when they get improvised. I do normally argue rules flubs though.I didn't dispel Rubi as you were in a grapple in the 'present form' of the fight On the notation: I personally use base AC or effects that can't be dispelled and then add in magic effects. So that when something like a dispel hits I don't have to go and recalculate AC. Also makes my Round summaries easier to copy/paste. I have done it this way for a while. I have enough trouble remembering to track positions sometimes from round to round. So in this case the 14 was 3 dex + 1 deflect, and then I would add in Mage armor if appropriate.
lonewolf 07-02-07, 04:35 PM	@Zevox: I just noticed that you also forgot to mark of Chameleons used supression charge in the wrap up. ty
Macbrea 07-02-07, 04:46 PM	The failed save vs fireball will probably change the flow of that fight a bit.
MitzaVolchenko 07-02-07, 05:06 PM	@Telin et al Not going to argue anything inthe fight, discussion regarding the Bronze Griffon Item has been moved to the council. I don't see a reason to add it to the sheet any more than I added the stats for the animals to Sliver's sheet for the Bag of Tricks or I have the Summon Monsters listed out for Sybil. The Griffonis anitem, not anally. I included it as bring Griffon when I could as easily have said bring active token instead. If we are ruling the item asillegal to force it to follow the ally rule that it breask, fine...I'll refund it after this 3FC and we need to shoot down the bags of tricks and a number of other twinks while we're at it :)
templer10 07-02-07, 05:20 PM	btw- about that fight - i think we Broke a record for XP gained in 1 fight at ECL 7 at least - 4200! xp.
amalcon 07-02-07, 06:26 PM	...Also, if Inzin is using stones from the ground, how is he collecting them while making constant double moves? Finally, Dog seems to have stopped trying to escape entanglement after round 5. His presence might potentially change matters, as he moves as quickly as Inzin's dog. Actually, since this fight is highly unlikely to be edited before Weds, and it's not got a high probability of changing things anyway, and I'd really just like to get Saldor into his next fight, forget about this.
Sjiggie 07-02-07, 08:25 PM	Well I was looking into it (I should have said that here) but if you do a run action to base Inzin you lose your dex to A and can't make an AoO so that wouldn't do Saldor much. About Inzin picking up stones from the ground is that the riding dog does the movement and with his own actions he can pick up the stones and load them in the sling. If I we're you I would go nova on the crystal shards you had 11pp left what would mean 11d6 of damage minus the few that might miss. Better luck next time
NiQil 07-02-07, 10:19 PM	@ templer10: Tiris could use an arrow count, if you please.
Sjiggie 07-02-07, 10:50 PM	Charles Ponzi vs Tyden Ryan is done Here Two crits on Tyden's side made the fight very short.
Erithmu 07-02-07, 10:55 PM	Well I was looking into it (I should have said that here) but if you do a run action to base Inzin you lose your dex to A and can't make an AoO so that wouldn't do Saldor much. About Inzin picking up stones from the ground is that the riding dog does the movement and with his own actions he can pick up the stones and load them in the sling. If I we're you I would go nova on the crystal shards you had 11pp left what would mean 11d6 of damage minus the few that might miss. Better luck next time Running does not prevent the ability to make AoO's I ran into that issue w/ Retikos vs Hood in the IMT, If you can find that line go for it ...
Zevox 07-03-07, 01:04 AM	here is ther problem i have with all this exact movement and jumping from so and so feet away - first you didnt mention it in tactics. second- i looked at elrick's movements and they werent always optiomal - i could have ended movement much further away in round 6 and still have hit you with the spells. The difference here is that Hirumajoe requested to pull this exact maneuver in his tactics, as his last response shows, and Valen had enough information at the time to pull it off. Yours don't even mention a preference to keep your distance, and in any event, you didn't know exactly where Valen was until round 6, only that he started in the NE box, so it would be all but impossible to make sure you move to the best possible location for assailing him. What I will do for you though is edit the issue with Roar to call him as early as possible - you deserve that much at least. In any event, I have a dilemma. I have one fight that hasn't been run yet and one that has a couple of contested points which may affect its outcome, and limited time to do them in. Since no one is stepping up to pick up Besthira vs Baelin, what I'm going to do is run that tomorrow as swiftly as I can, and pray it doesn't end up with such complications. Once its done, I'll return to this, and try to get it done in time. I cannot guarantee it will be done in time, especially if Besthira vs Baelin gets too troublesome, but I will make every attempt, even doing it throughout the night tomorrow if need be. If you guys wish to avoid a holdover, you could accept the fight as-is if I don't get it done on time though, but that would be your decision to make. @Zevox: I just noticed that you also forgot to mark of Chameleons used supression charge in the wrap up. ty Well, technically I just mis-marked the powerstone you used as a Chameleon stone instead of Compression. Fixed though. Zevox
templer10 07-03-07, 01:29 AM	The difference here is that Hirumajoe requested to pull this exact maneuver in his tactics, as his last response shows, and Valen had enough information at the time to pull it off. Yours don't even mention a preference to keep your distance, and in any event, you didn't know exactly where Valen was until round 6, only that he started in the NE box, so it would be all but impossible to make sure you move to the best possible location for assailing him. What I will do for you though is edit the issue with Roar to call him as early as possible - you deserve that much at least. In any event, I have a dilemma. I have one fight that hasn't been run yet and one that has a couple of contested points which may affect its outcome, and limited time to do them in. Since no one is stepping up to pick up Besthira vs Baelin, what I'm going to do is run that tomorrow as swiftly as I can, and pray it doesn't end up with such complications. Once its done, I'll return to this, and try to get it done in time. I cannot guarantee it will be done in time, especially if Besthira vs Baelin gets too troublesome, but I will make every attempt, even doing it throughout the night tomorrow if need be. If you guys wish to avoid a holdover, you could accept the fight as-is if I don't get it done on time though, but that would be your decision to make. Well, technically I just mis-marked the powerstone you used as a Chameleon stone instead of Compression. Fixed though. Zevox Actually looking at the map - when my turn in round 6 rolled around i knew where both izumi and valen was and yet i went directly towards valen When all the spells i called to use are much longer range then the one you put me in (600+ feet for ice storm and 180 feet for flame strike) so i might not have spelled it out for you and asked you to avoid him in distance- but but why did you even get close anyway? besideds you can see from tactics and me not wanting to be in reach for him (or so i thought...) that i didnt want to be anywhere near him. for me all you need to edit is round 6 movement - since at that point i know where all the players are - and should be able to move to use my spells more efficently.
MindWandererB 07-03-07, 01:42 AM	In any event, I have a dilemma. I have one fight that hasn't been run yet and one that has a couple of contested points which may affect its outcome, and limited time to do them in. Since no one is stepping up to pick up Besthira vs Baelin, what I'm going to do is run that tomorrow as swiftly as I can, and pray it doesn't end up with such complications. Once its done, I'll return to this, and try to get it done in time. I cannot guarantee it will be done in time, especially if Besthira vs Baelin gets too troublesome, but I will make every attempt, even doing it throughout the night tomorrow if need be. If you guys wish to avoid a holdover, you could accept the fight as-is if I don't get it done on time though, but that would be your decision to make.It looks like you'll get an extra day anyway, as it seems no one is able to do pairings on July 4.
Zevox 07-03-07, 01:59 AM	Actually looking at the map - when my turn in round 6 rolled around i knew where both izumi and valen was and yet i went directly towards valen No, you did not. You didn't know where Valen was until the end of your movement in round 6, you knew only that he had started in that box thanks to Izumi seeing he hadn't been in the SE box and knowing she had started in the SW one. You had no idea he would still be in the box until you spotted him. It looks like you'll get an extra day anyway, as it seems no one is able to do pairings on July 4. That'll help all right, though I still want to get B v B done in time for the deadline anyway so as not to lose the credit. Zevox
lonewolf 07-03-07, 02:29 AM	ignore this
Hirumajoe 07-03-07, 07:41 AM	In any event, I have a dilemma. I have one fight that hasn't been run yet and one that has a couple of contested points which may affect its outcome, and limited time to do them in. Since no one is stepping up to pick up Besthira vs Baelin, what I'm going to do is run that tomorrow as swiftly as I can, and pray it doesn't end up with such complications. Once its done, I'll return to this, and try to get it done in time. I cannot guarantee it will be done in time, especially if Besthira vs Baelin gets too troublesome, but I will make every attempt, even doing it throughout the night tomorrow if need be. If you guys wish to avoid a holdover, you could accept the fight as-is if I don't get it done on time though, but that would be your decision to make. I have no preference on whether its a hold over or not. A hold over wouldn't bother me. I'm also willing to accept the fight as is if you don't have time and Templer10 and Macbrea are interested in activating their characters next week. I'm certainly not going to ask you stay up all night to fix stuff for a game. Sleep is more important. :)
Sjiggie 07-03-07, 07:43 AM	Arbins Monster Fight is up here
Macbrea 07-03-07, 08:46 AM	Do what's needed to get the fight to what seems satisfying. I wasn't going to activate her next week anyways.
amalcon 07-03-07, 09:05 AM	If I we're you I would go nova on the crystal shards you had 11pp left what would mean 11d6 of damage minus the few that might miss. Better luck next time I am rapidly noticing the drawback of crystal shard: it only has range of 30'. So if I could shard him, I could also just move up and attempt a grapple, which I thought had a better chance (because I only had to make it work once) eta: Also, it's a flat-footed character that can't make attacks of opportunity. There are situations where you can lose your Dex bonus to AC but not be flat-footed (like, for example, running). That said, it's really not necessary to change this -- it's got low odds of working anyway, and would potentially be a lot of trouble, and I really just want to get Saldor into his next round.
templer10 07-03-07, 09:27 AM	I am rapidly noticing the drawback of crystal shard: it only has range of 30'. So if I could shard him, I could also just move up and attempt a grapple, which I thought had a better chance (because I only had to make it work once) that's why they invented Enlarge power (which is a +0 adjusmnet metapsioninc feat).
waywreth 07-03-07, 09:34 AM	that's why they invented Enlarge power (which is a +0 adjusmnet metapsioninc feat). ...which works great in a dorje, but as a metapsionic feat, isn't so useful since you have to expend your focus. Crystal shard is useful as it ignores most DR, and is a touch attack, making it good to sneak attack with. It's not so great to chase someone around a battlefield with. That's what energy missile and the like are for.
TheMagister 07-03-07, 09:42 AM	@'Rith - not to hurry you, but is there going to be an edit of the Rubi + Nexa vs. Relanex fight?
templer10 07-03-07, 09:52 AM	...which works great in a dorje, but as a metapsionic feat, isn't so useful since you have to expend your focus. Crystal shard is useful as it ignores most DR, and is a touch attack, making it good to sneak attack with. It's not so great to chase someone around a battlefield with. That's what energy missile and the like are for. Actually i have enralge power as feat on one of my guys and he can hit anyone from any distance (as far away as 1,280 feet) with certein powers (in case somebody got really wild with a dimension door or something). even if you cant Regain focus as a move action (you dont have the feat) - in large maps - arena/plains, parts of the forest getting that extra shot in can be fight changing. p.s. - the whole point of enlarge power really is taking powers with already decent range (medium) and making them VERY long range and in the same time using some mode of fast movement to NOT be in the vecinity of the enemy leaving them with only ranged attacks as an option (which are eitehr range limited or suffer minuses to hit). nothing beats hitting someone with an energy ball then enlarged energy missile or 2 in the plains before he even got into realistic bow range.
Erithmu 07-03-07, 09:53 AM	@'Rith - not to hurry you, but is there going to be an edit of the Rubi + Nexa vs. Relanex fight? Yes ... Life has been a little bit upside down here, but I'll get to it right after class, yesterday was .. off ... I think there is an extra day w/ pairings being delayed as well.
TelinArtho 07-03-07, 12:09 PM	@Mitza - Berri should only have cast True Strike twice in that fight.
Zevox 07-03-07, 12:15 PM	Crystal shard is useful as it ignores most DR, and is a touch attack, making it good to sneak attack with. It's not so great to chase someone around a battlefield with. That's what energy missile and the like are for. Oh, I don't know about that. In Sauro's campaign Istima at level 9 managed to basically single-handedly take out a Thought Slayer with Empowered Crystal Shards used in hit-n-run attacks from Pegasus-back. Zevox
Zevox 07-03-07, 12:18 PM	@ Hiru/Mac/templer - All right then, for now, consider the fight to be complete. If I have enough time tomorrow (since it looks like pairings are being delayed to Thursday), I'll see about getting the thing edited completely for the existing errors, but if I don't get it done in time since Hirumajoe agreed it can stand as-is to let you all activate your characters in the coming week. Zevox
MitzaVolchenko 07-03-07, 12:29 PM	Berri vs. Atemu is up. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12945957&postcount=1048)
TelinArtho 07-03-07, 12:32 PM	@Mitza - Berri should only have cast True Strike twice in that fight. In case you missed this above Mitza. Otherwise I am fine with the fight. Edit - also - you missed the Protection from Evil in the fight summary for Berri.
MitzaVolchenko 07-03-07, 12:42 PM	In case you missed this above Mitza. Otherwise I am fine with the fight. Edit - also - you missed the Protection from Evil in the fight summary for Berri. Sorry...I have a character that casts it as a swift so when I read your tactics and saw 'for the next two rounds' I assumed total three castings...will edit rewards and see if it changes expenditures when I finish up with your other fight :P I was bad and let a certain other pitlord distract me from running fights last night, so now I have to just sit here and run fights until I am done.
TelinArtho 07-03-07, 12:43 PM	I was bad and let a certain other pitlord distract me from running fights last night, so now I have to just sit here and run fights until I am done. We'll have to chastise Rauul then for interrupting you... :P
MitzaVolchenko 07-03-07, 12:45 PM	We'll have to chastise Rauul then for interrupting you... :P Um...wasn't Rauul :P
TelinArtho 07-03-07, 12:46 PM	Um... I know - I'm just causing trouble...
MitzaVolchenko 07-03-07, 01:46 PM	Um... I know - I'm just causing trouble... Heh...well yes, yes you are...you know I have characters with Spectral Hand and have never used the bloody spell? And could one of you two just suceed in your opening salvo killer attacks? Noooo! Gotta make me work for it. Anyone know how we treat soft cover? ie. interposed smae sized creature?
TelinArtho 07-03-07, 01:52 PM	The same way it is handled in the SRD: Soft Cover: Creatures, even your enemies, can provide you with cover against ranged attacks, giving you a +4 bonus to AC. However, such soft cover provides no bonus on Reflex saves, nor does soft cover allow you to make a Hide check.
MitzaVolchenko 07-03-07, 02:22 PM	Good deal. Vallgar vs. Mohmat is up. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12947152&postcount=1051) I am reviewing to check for errors and rewards...good thing neither of you was dueling the broad side of a barn, because the barn would have won when you starved to death trying to hit it :P
TelinArtho 07-03-07, 02:33 PM	Well - while I disagree about some of the movement - there's nothing there that would negate the fact that the dice hated me. Good run.
TelinArtho 07-03-07, 02:39 PM	Actually - let me take that back. There's two things that are not included in the rolls and makes a large difference. 1. Spectral Hand gives a +2 to touch attacks made with it. 2. Shocking grasp gives a +3 to touch attacks versus those in metal armor (and Mohmat is wearing Mithril chain). This means that the initial Shocking grasp touch hits. Then Vallgar recasts it and touches again (which would also hit). Beyond that - it will go to Chill Touch.
Zevox 07-03-07, 02:49 PM	Baelin vs Besthira is complete. Even more so than my last fight, the dice decided this one. And boy, they shouted their decision to the heavens. Zevox
Hirumajoe 07-03-07, 02:50 PM	@Zevox: I know its not my fight, but in regards to the B&B fight: Remember, Invisibility only counts for the first attack, and then its broken. Therefore in a Full attack sequence, only the first attack is a sneak attack and gets the +2 bonus to hit and negates dex.
Zevox 07-03-07, 02:54 PM	@Zevox: I know its not my fight, but in regards to the B&B fight: Remember, Invisibility only counts for the first attack, and then its broken. Therefore in a Full attack sequence, only the first attack is a sneak attack and gets the +2 bonus to hit and negates dex. Also, don't forget -1 damage if Baelin is using silver arrows. Just looking at the dice roller is all. I recalculated the damage for the silver arrow in the fight, so thats taken care of. The attack is another story though - looks like without that +2 its only a 20, which misses Besthira's FF AC thanks to her reduce person potion removing her normal size penalty. That'll mean Besthira has a chance to continue fighting, albeit with some pretty terrible wounds. I'll edit it and see what happens when I get home from work tonight then. Zevox
Eluria 07-03-07, 02:54 PM	Actually - let me take that back. There's two things that are not included in the rolls and makes a large difference. 1. Spectral Hand gives a +2 to touch attacks made with it. 2. Shocking grasp gives a +3 to touch attacks versus those in metal armor (and Mohmat is wearing Mithril chain). This means that the initial Shocking grasp touch hits. Then Vallgar recasts it and touches again (which would also hit). Beyond that - it will go to Chill Touch. I was about to lol at Mitza's comment about the barn, and say thanks for the good run. If Telin wants you to look into those changes he mentions, obviously that's your call, as they're somewhat legit. Share pain will probably mitigate most of the damage, but obviously it's both of your calls. To clarify though, first shocking grasp (rd 6) roll = 7 + 4 + 2 (SH) + 3 (metal armor) = 16, my touch AC is 18 (16 normal, +2 protection from evil), so first one doesn't hit. Second one, that looks like it might. If you are making changes, please include the +1 to damage from PBS (I'm shocked you remembered +1 to hit; those random little modifiers always get forgotten!) Overall looks like a bunch of crappy rolls and an entertaining run, either way it works out. Thanks for your work Mitza.
Macbrea 07-03-07, 02:55 PM	The ring of blinking on the other hand makes all attacks as if under a blink spell. While blinking, you take only half damage from area attacks (but full damage from those that extend onto the Ethereal Plane). You strike as an invisible creature (with a +2 bonus on attack rolls), denying your target any Dexterity bonus to AC.
TelinArtho 07-03-07, 02:55 PM	Except: While blinking, you take only half damage from area attacks (but full damage from those that extend onto the Ethereal Plane). You strike as an invisible creature (with a +2 bonus on attack rolls), denying your target any Dexterity bonus to AC. You take only half damage from falling, since you fall only while you are material.
Macbrea 07-03-07, 02:58 PM	:P
Hirumajoe 07-03-07, 02:58 PM	Ahh, excellent point. Blinking for the win. :)
TelinArtho 07-03-07, 02:58 PM	I was about to lol at Mitza's comment about the barn, and say thanks for the good run. If Telin wants you to look into those changes he mentions, obviously that's your call, as they're somewhat legit. Share pain will probably mitigate most of the damage, but obviously it's both of your calls. To clarify though, first shocking grasp (rd 6) roll = 7 + 4 + 2 (SH) + 3 (metal armor) = 16, my touch AC is 18 (16 normal, +2 protection from evil), so first one doesn't hit. Second one, that looks like it might. If you are making changes, please include the +1 to damage from PBS (I'm shocked you remembered +1 to hit; those random little modifiers always get forgotten!) Overall looks like a bunch of crappy rolls and an entertaining run, either way it works out. Thanks for your work Mitza. That's right - forgot about the Prot. from evil. No sense in editing it for that then.
Macbrea 07-03-07, 02:58 PM	Blinking is overkill for rogues.
Zevox 07-03-07, 03:02 PM	The ring of blinking on the other hand makes all attacks as if under a blink spell. Oh-ho, missed that little aspect of that spell. One more reason that ring rocks and is a must-have for Featylec, then. Guess thats that for that fight. Zevox
MitzaVolchenko 07-03-07, 04:00 PM	Actually - let me take that back. There's two things that are not included in the rolls and makes a large difference. 1. Spectral Hand gives a +2 to touch attacks made with it. 2. Shocking grasp gives a +3 to touch attacks versus those in metal armor (and Mohmat is wearing Mithril chain). This means that the initial Shocking grasp touch hits. Then Vallgar recasts it and touches again (which would also hit). Beyond that - it will go to Chill Touch. I already gave him the +2 for spectral...will lookto see if the extra from SG changes things.
Erithmu 07-03-07, 04:01 PM	Rubi/Nexa vs Relanex fight editing now starting ...
Macbrea 07-03-07, 04:05 PM	Thanks
TheMagister 07-03-07, 04:07 PM	Coo. Maybe a lucky arrow crit'll happen. {sigh} Yeah, right. Here's to making you burn wand charges, you glass cannon, you!
Macbrea 07-03-07, 04:10 PM	Well.. I would assume I was going to to have to go through all those various spells I listed before I got to that wand. And hopefully, either you kill Relanex or your obliterated! :P
MitzaVolchenko 07-03-07, 04:10 PM	@Telin Okay, corrections would have the SG hit in round 7 and cost Vallgar another casting which will miss through the rest of the fight. I'll add it in if you wish, but as it was my error, you can save the scroll on my dime if you prefer. @Eluria I remembered the +1 to damage, but I wasn't sure if it applied to CS was going to look it up and edit it in if it would make a difference...now that I think about it, there isn't any reason it shouldn't, but there is also no real reason to edit it in :P I also don't know what happens when a Wilder surges and enervates off more points than they are allowed in a fight, but I presume that you do or can find out :) If either of you wants me to make the corrections, I will.
TelinArtho 07-03-07, 04:12 PM	I see no need to edit it for just the one hit. If I was going to get both in - I was going to ask for it - but without it, I see no point. I certainly would rather not use the extra scroll of course.
TelinArtho 07-03-07, 04:14 PM	I also don't know what happens when a Wilder surges and enervates off more points than they are allowed in a fight, but I presume that you do or can find out :) That's actually quite simple - it pulls off of their total per day. So if they are allowed 30 points per day and in their first fight, because of enervation, the character uses 12 points - they would have 18 points left for the day, but still have 10 to use in the second fight.
TheMagister 07-03-07, 04:15 PM	I also don't know what happens when a Wilder surges and enervates off more points than they are allowed in a fight, but I presume that you do or can find out :) A wilder who enervates over his allotted amount eats into next week's portion. Sucks to be him/her.
Macbrea 07-03-07, 04:16 PM	I also don't know what happens when a Wilder surges and enervates off more points than they are allowed in a fight, but I presume that you do or can find out :) You are allowed to use more power points then can by method of enervation. This means a wilder in his second fight could accidently cripple himself for his third fight by enerverating.
Eluria 07-03-07, 04:16 PM	Good deal. [URL="http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12947152&postcount=1051"]good thing neither of you was dueling the broad side of a barn, because the barn would have won when you starved to death trying to hit it :P Now that that's settled, thanks for the run (both of you; it's nice to rematch Vallgar), and I lol at the bad luck and likely victory that barn would've had. Mitza, in regards to enervation, the enervated pp's still come off the total 3FC amount; I think it's the only way to overuse your alloted resources per fight. This leaves Mohmat with only 2pp for his final fight, and he needs one to keep psionic focus; oh joy :)
Erithmu 07-03-07, 04:27 PM	Nexa/Rubi vs Relanex fixes done ... Going to run a couple of errands and come back to make sure it is ok.
TheMagister 07-03-07, 04:31 PM	Wow. Twin 5s on reflex saves. That'll kill ya pretty efficiently. TM
Macbrea 07-03-07, 04:37 PM	His damage is horridly high.. now.. how to make him survive to deliver it..
templer10 07-03-07, 04:42 PM	His damage is horridly high.. now.. how to make him survive to deliver it.. polymorph is your friend.... (to something that can still speak with loads of CON) - troll form will give you +45 HP and +4 AC. (did i mention it's a broken broken spell...)
MindWandererB 07-03-07, 06:07 PM	I recalculated the damage for the silver arrow in the fight, so thats taken care of. The attack is another story though - looks like without that +2 its only a 20, which misses Besthira's FF AC thanks to her reduce person potion removing her normal size penalty. That'll mean Besthira has a chance to continue fighting, albeit with some pretty terrible wounds. I'll edit it and see what happens when I get home from work tonight then. Zevox Actually, what keeps the fight going is this: A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealmentWhich is explicitly why I said to stay in the undergrowth at all times. If you're rolling miss chances, which you did, then there's no sneak attack. That'll wipe out most of that damage, I think. Edit: more issues: - You forgot the -1 damage for silver. - I said to not bother grappling while Baelin was blinking. Presumably even blindsense can tell this (if he's not there half the time). Since I also preferred to stay in the undergrowth, this should be an arrow shot.
Erithmu 07-03-07, 06:08 PM	His damage is horridly high.. now.. how to make him survive to deliver it.. Con boost items as well ... One of the things that I learned from a TT buddy of mine is that Con is always the second stat behind whatever the needed stat for the class is ... He had fun with 3.0 psionics when each discipline was based on a different stat. He made a con stated pison and was having fun rolling d4s and keeping up in hp with a bunch of dwarven fighters ... It was a little side game they had going on. Rewards fixed for checking ...
Erithmu 07-03-07, 06:10 PM	If you're rolling miss chances, which you did, then there's no sneak attack. That'll wipe out most of that damage, I think. I think he is rolling the blinking miss chances, but then again he probably does need a 2nd set of miss chances (but I don't know where Bes is in terms when the bow shot happens, so I probably should keep my mouth shut)
Hirumajoe 07-03-07, 06:18 PM	I think he is rolling the blinking miss chances, but then again he probably does need a 2nd set of miss chances (but I don't know where Bes is in terms when the bow shot happens, so I probably should keep my mouth shut) Looking at the map and reading the fight, Beth is out in the open on a green square after having just failed to grapple Baelin. There is swamp adjacent to him, but you wouldn't be reaching him if you tried to go through it to make the grapple attempt. So no cover, just blink chance it seems.
MindWandererB 07-03-07, 06:32 PM	Looking at the map and reading the fight, Beth is out in the open on a green square after having just failed to grapple Baelin. There is swamp adjacent to him, but you wouldn't be reaching him if you tried to go through it to make the grapple attempt. So no cover, just blink chance it seems. Ah, true, which makes it a tactical error rather than a technical one. It seems clear (to me) in my tactics that I wanted to have concealment at all times, whether through undergrowth or Blur.
Macbrea 07-03-07, 08:52 PM	A miss chance doesn't stop sneak attack. Concealment does. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach. Blinking isn't concealment. It's simply not being on the plane on the same time as the person you strike. And therefore, on the swings you miss you cannot sneak attack. :P
Erithmu 07-03-07, 08:58 PM	@Macbrea: was looking over the FFA ... Small concern: Samuel has to be manifested on the material plane to use malevolence. Hence most of my keep away tactics, and readied action tactics.
Macbrea 07-03-07, 09:24 PM	Ack.. will look at that.
Erithmu 07-03-07, 09:28 PM	Edit: Now he sees it ...
Macbrea 07-04-07, 12:53 AM	Will finish the rest in the morning.. 1am here...
Zevox 07-04-07, 01:09 AM	Which is explicitly why I said to stay in the undergrowth at all times. If you're rolling miss chances, which you did, then there's no sneak attack. That'll wipe out most of that damage, I think. Edit: more issues: - You forgot the -1 damage for silver. - I said to not bother grappling while Baelin was blinking. Presumably even blindsense can tell this (if he's not there half the time). Since I also preferred to stay in the undergrowth, this should be an arrow shot. As explained by others, the miss chances were from Blink, not concealment, Blink does not prevent sneak attacks since it isn't concealment. I didn't forget the -1 silver damage - its factored into the calculations in the fight. For the Blinking, I'm sorry, but logical though that may be, the rules don't support it. Your blindsense lets you pinpoint his space - thats it. I'd rule it that way myself in regular games, but the way things get run here, it doesn't happen. You need to see him to know hes Blinking. And for the undergrowth, you couldn't attack him in melee or grapple and still have that concealment, since he was no where near the undergrowth, so you had to either move out of it or abandon your main plan. I opted against abandoning the main plan for two reasons - the first being that it seemed to be less supported by your tactics, the second being that Baelin could get away and hide (and snipe), thus forcing you from your undergrowth, so it made little tactical sense from that perspective as well. Zevox
lonewolf 07-04-07, 02:09 AM	@Macbrea: I was looking shortly over the forest FFA, and one thing I noticed was in round 12 the missing check if the energy missile cold hits Samuel despite his incorporeatility(50%miss chance for all magic except force magic)
Macbrea 07-04-07, 02:10 AM	Will get it in the morning.. off to bed.
MindWandererB 07-04-07, 03:35 AM	For the Blinking, I'm sorry, but logical though that may be, the rules don't support it. Your blindsense lets you pinpoint his space - thats it. I'd rule it that way myself in regular games, but the way things get run here, it doesn't happen. You need to see him to know hes Blinking.How do the rules not support it? They don't say anything about anyone perceiving blinking at all, but clearly you can. Since Blindsense can't detect ethereal creatures, he will seem to be there only half the time--exactly the same as vision would. And for the undergrowth, you couldn't attack him in melee or grapple and still have that concealment, since he was no where near the undergrowth, so you had to either move out of it or abandon your main plan. I opted against abandoning the main plan for two reasons - the first being that it seemed to be less supported by your tactics, the second being that Baelin could get away and hide (and snipe), thus forcing you from your undergrowth, so it made little tactical sense from that perspective as well.Well, that's your prerogative, but I did emphasize having concealment at all times, whenever possible. I even had a contingency for if the undergrowth wasn't going to work for me (Blur).
Macbrea 07-04-07, 12:00 PM	So, if anyone sees any drastic errors in Crazy ECL 10 fight in Woods tell me.. I am going to go grab food for the 4th.
TheMagister 07-04-07, 12:19 PM	It Samuel and Eraca are duelling in the bog, then both of 'em have cover bonuses to AC. Some of those corrupting touches might miss. Kinda silly to not use magic missile on Samuel when Eraca's having such trouble hitting him with so many shots, but that's your call.
hogarth 07-04-07, 12:25 PM	It Samuel and Eraca are duelling in the bog, then both of 'em have cover bonuses to AC. Some of those corrupting touches might miss. I'm not so sure about Samuel's touches: Incorporeal creatures pass through and operate in water as easily as they do in air. Air wouldn't give a cover bonus to AC. Maybe that only applies to clear water and not bog terrain, though.
TheMagister 07-04-07, 12:35 PM	All true. Obstruction of sight would equal to an ad hoc concealment bonus that Macbrea's not obligated to give (but should for the sake of fairness). TM
MitzaVolchenko 07-04-07, 12:56 PM	It Samuel and Eraca are duelling in the bog, then both of 'em have cover bonuses to AC. Some of those corrupting touches might miss. Kinda silly to not use magic missile on Samuel when Eraca's having such trouble hitting him with so many shots, but that's your call. I can understand that one...not mentioned in tactics anywhere... On the bog, I don't think it would apply to incorporeal, but who knows?
Macbrea 07-04-07, 12:56 PM	She moved out of the bog in order to be able to take a 5ft step and rapid shot 3 shots per round vs taking an attack of oppurtunity against her firing one shot.
TheMagister 07-04-07, 12:59 PM	Ah. Okay then. ;)
hogarth 07-04-07, 01:07 PM	So, if anyone sees any drastic errors in Crazy ECL 10 fight in Woods tell me.. I am going to go grab food for the 4th. Macbrea -- Grease requires a save every round, not just an initial save. A saving throw must be made in each round that the creature attempts to pick up or use the greased item.
TheMagister 07-04-07, 01:09 PM	Doesn't the initial save to grease a held item determine if the item gets greased at all?
hogarth 07-04-07, 01:11 PM	Doesn't the initial save to grease a held item determine if the item gets greased at all? Whoops...you're right.
Zevox 07-04-07, 02:13 PM	So, if anyone sees any drastic errors in Crazy ECL 10 fight in Woods tell me.. I am going to go grab food for the 4th. If you could, please edit out the additional uses of the Mirror Image wand. I didn't ask to renew it in my tactics, and did not want to, so I have no idea why you decided to do so. As for the MM wand, theres a very good reason I didn't ask to use it: Sammuel has a Brooch of Shielding. Without a higher-level wand, that thing is too costly to simply power through. So I'm quite happy you didn't use it, and that I never ran out of arrows. Zevox
Zevox 07-04-07, 02:29 PM	Well, that's your prerogative, but I did emphasize having concealment at all times, whenever possible. I even had a contingency for if the undergrowth wasn't going to work for me (Blur). Actually, you didn't ask to have concealment at all times. You simply asked to stay in the undergrowth/canopy "as much as possible" (exact quote). I was under the impression that following attacking Baelin to ensure he wouldn't get away when he was fleeing from the area near the undergrowth would qualify as a time where it was impossible. I suppose I might have used the Blur potion, but there again he could just as easily get away for sniping if you spent time drawing and drinking that as if you stayed in the natural concealment. From your tactics, the only thing I could see doing is that, if you knew he was blinking, you might have stayed back in the undergrowth to shoot instead, but even there your tactics certainly indicated favoring melee over ranged combat, and the danger of him getting away to snipe exists too. In the situation and with your tactics, I'm just not sure what else I should've done if not chase him down. Zevox
Macbrea 07-04-07, 02:37 PM	Ok, have edited the fight. Eraca fell a few rounds earlier without the use of the Mirror Image wand's extra protection.
Zevox 07-04-07, 02:39 PM	So, if anyone sees any drastic errors in Crazy ECL 10 fight in Woods tell me.. I am going to go grab food for the 4th. Hold up here, I just noticed something that could change the fight in Eraca's favor. In round 31, when Sammuel did his dispel, Eraca still had her original two mirror images up, but I see no check for accidentally targeting them instead of her! If he does that, he can only dispel the images, which leaves Eraca with her fly spell still active, and Sammuel with no way to catch her to do his touches. From there it becomes a simple run-n-gun until either the fly spell runs out or Sammuel dies. Edit: Also, Sammuel's PLAs only last 30 rounds, so most of them will wear off shortly there, including both Force Screen and Defensive Precognition, leaving him with the just slightly more sane AC of 32. Zevox
Macbrea 07-04-07, 03:01 PM	Will have to fix it to tonight.. guest just came over.