Fights of the Week: March 28th - Comments and Concerns [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTimePost
TelinArtho

03-28-07, 11:56 AM		Fights of the Week: March 28th

Please don't edit the sheet after the deadline or you will lose the match.

Rules of Gladius
All that you need to know is written in the Rules of Gladius.
It could be useful also to give a look to the Court Decisions Part 1 and Part 2.
Please do not make fake accounts or insult the Elders.

Pairings
GM Caterane will pair the active Characters of Gladius after the deadline.
Make sure that your character is not in prison.

Pitlording
You should use the CoCo Dice Roller (http://www.hwx.it/wizards.com) for the fight.
If you need it, there is a nice template ready to use that will help.
You could find the Battle Map Tag Generator (http://www.hwx.it/coco) for dynamic Maps very useful. You must post a link to your fight in this thread when it is complete.
If you need a quick and dirty tool to calculate distances between two points (in 2-D or 3-D), this tool (http://wormhole.ath.cx/coco/coco_dist.php) should suffice.
Another useful link is the Quick Access tables for XP and Gold.
If a fight needs to be rerun, the Pitlord has to inform the Pitlords account. He cannot react to requests from Players because the other player and the pitlord might disagree. He has no time to read the fight and the discussion. Please keep that in mind. PMs from players with rerun requests won't have an impact.

Recent News and Developments
The Iron Man tournament Round 2 is this week - good luck to all involved (unless you are a slimy underling from the deep sea...)

Comments & Concerns
Post any comments or concerns for this weeks fights in this thread.
Be kind and courteous to your fellow posters, and don't feed the pitlords.
Please remember that they do hard work and consume a lot of time to let you play. Above all, have FUN!

If you have questions or comments on any of the changes, please make your posts be heard in the Council of Gladius!
waywreth

03-28-07, 12:10 PM		...Round 2 is this week - good luck to all involved (unless you are a slimy underling from the deep sea...)

Subtle... I like it.
TelinArtho

03-28-07, 12:11 PM		Except it is no longer subtle once someone POINTS IT OUT...
waywreth

03-28-07, 12:13 PM		Except it is no longer subtle once someone POINTS IT OUT...

It wasn't to begin with... I was being sarcastic
/grin
TheMagister

03-28-07, 02:15 PM		@whoever draws me as a gladiator - I won't be in to write tactics until Friday morning (US Central), and they probably won't get finalized and sent until Friday afternoon. I might be able to squeeze a set out on Thursday, but don't count on it.

@the poor unfortunate bastards who draw me as a pitlord - Tactics deadline will be firmly adhered to this pairings week. Since I'll be running fights during my dayshift (which can get busier than night shift), I need all the time possible to run what I draw.

TM
hogarth

03-28-07, 02:33 PM		The Iron Man tournament Round 2 is this week - good luck to all involved (unless you are a slimy underling from the deep sea...)

Hey...I've got two credits riding on that son of a scrod -- don't jinx him! :D
templer10

03-28-07, 04:37 PM		Just want to mention that whoever the poor sod who gets me as pitlord this week (not IMT) i would prefer tactics as early as possible as i like running fights on thursday - hell i got tiem today if someone will be extra quick
TelinArtho

03-28-07, 04:40 PM		Hey...I've got two credits riding on that son of a scrod -- don't jinx him! :D

Jinxing him is about what I'm hoping for... Kraegin's not exactly a shoo-in victory, so I need to find a way... praying to the gods of the dice wasn't out of the list of things to do...

That said - I think I'm almost done writing tactics against him... definitely the longest set I've ever written before, but versus one of Cat's characters it certainly is necessary...
Rauul

03-28-07, 04:42 PM		Well who ever Draws Shadow as an Opponent... will proably win due to me not looking at the clock and attempting to fix the sblocks...

What do you expect from the Rogue...
TelinArtho

03-28-07, 04:46 PM		After pairings are set, send a PM to your pitlord and opponent(s) and ask them for mercy. Usually we're pretty lax about it if people are up-front about it and the pairings haven't been done yet.
MindWandererB

03-28-07, 04:58 PM		Well who ever Draws Shadow as an Opponent... will proably win due to me not looking at the clock and attempting to fix the sblocks...

What do you expect from the Rogue...After pairings are set, send a PM to your pitlord and opponent(s) and ask them for mercy. Usually we're pretty lax about it if people are up-front about it and the pairings haven't been done yet.Usually, but not always. Usernamer got an auto-loss this week despite this. Cat hasn't set characters as active yet, so it's not too late to pull "ready" off your title line.
hogarth

03-28-07, 05:00 PM		Does anyone know why the pairings were so late last week? Do we expect a repetition of that this week?
TelinArtho

03-28-07, 05:03 PM		Usually, but not always. Usernamer got an auto-loss this week despite this. Cat hasn't set characters as active yet, so it's not too late to pull "ready" off your title line.

Well - I can't speak for always. Still, I don't know that UserNamer was very forthcoming about his late edit - as in he only mentioned it (as far as I saw) after the auto-loss was handed out.
TelinArtho

03-28-07, 05:04 PM		Does anyone know why the pairings were so late last week? Do we expect a repetition of that this week?

Only Cat could answer that - but unfortunately he seems to not be coming around except to do pairings at the moment (and to submit tactics I suppose)
MindWandererB

03-28-07, 05:09 PM		Well - I can't speak for always. Still, I don't know that UserNamer was very forthcoming about his late edit - as in he only mentioned it (as far as I saw) after the auto-loss was handed out.
He was open about it in PMs. Tellish, Rauul, and I all knew about it in advance. I told Tellish it was his right to ask for the forfeit or to ask the fight to be run anyway... I gather he didn't tell Rauul anything at all.
Rauul

03-28-07, 05:14 PM		Well - I can't speak for always. Still, I don't know that UserNamer was very forthcoming about his late edit - as in he only mentioned it (as far as I saw) after the auto-loss was handed out.

Acually I was the pitlord... Waited till monday to see if I got any message from him before I posted it.. then I got messages..

Shrugs if he looses due to me being 2/3 asleep then he looses... it's Just a Game...

Now i get to go shopping for the Corruptors new Cohort..
this should be interesting...
Tellish_of_Ket

03-28-07, 05:23 PM		He was open about it in PMs. Tellish, Rauul, and I all knew about it in advance. I told Tellish it was his right to ask for the forfeit or to ask the fight to be run anyway... I gather he didn't tell Rauul anything at all.
Uh...nope. That's not what happened at all. I noticed the late edit sometime around Saturday evening...and simply brought it to Rauul's and your attention. I didn't ask for a forfeit or anything like that, i just wanted the pitlord to be made aware and that it was his right. I left it totally up to the pitlord and made no hints or inclinations either way. I just wanted to make sure i wasn't taking things out of context.


ToK
MindWandererB

03-28-07, 05:24 PM		Uh...nope. That's not what happened at all. I noticed the late edit sometime around Saturday evening...and simply brought it to Rauul's and your attention. I didn't ask for a forfeit or anything like that, i just wanted the pitlord to be made aware and that it was his right. I left it totally up to the pitlord and made no hints or inclinations either way. I just wanted to make sure i wasn't taking things out of context.
Umm... that's what I said.
Tellish_of_Ket

03-28-07, 05:49 PM		Umm... that's what I said.
Oh..thought when you said "he" that you mean username told me that he was late. my bad.


ToK
waywreth

03-28-07, 07:06 PM		Pairings (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5179877#post5179877) are up by the way.
NiQil

03-28-07, 07:19 PM		@ Rauul & sonofzeal: There are some issues with The Shadow here. I will need to know how these are going to be solved before I can write tactics.
Rauul

03-28-07, 07:39 PM		@ Rauul & sonofzeal: There are some issues with The Shadow here. I will need to know how these are going to be solved before I can write tactics.

he went to the graveyard... I forfeit the match
NiQil

03-28-07, 07:43 PM		@ my pitlords: Tactics will be out either late tonight or tomorrow afternoon...home sick from work and not really feeling up to it at the moment.
Rauul

03-28-07, 07:44 PM		gawd what is up with all the Elves fighting my half-orc...

Ok on 2 vs 2 teams do we start in the same square as our partener or seperate?
templer10

03-28-07, 08:36 PM		Sjiggie - tactics for elrick flamebrother VS Bulgar Stronghammer sent.
TaggIIV

03-28-07, 08:38 PM		sent tactics for Tagg to templer
Yitzi

03-28-07, 09:36 PM		Sent tactics for Lightwolf
hogarth

03-28-07, 09:44 PM		@Horatius: tactics sent for Balthazar Picsou
Pitlords

03-28-07, 09:45 PM		Kronos (NiQil) vs. Unknown Monster : Sonofzeal [Arena]
Macbrea

03-28-07, 10:24 PM		All tactics sent.


Sheesh, the wizard vs wizard fight in the sewers looks like it could go really fast.
Vathelokai

03-28-07, 11:31 PM		gawd what is up with all the Elves fighting my half-orc...

Ok on 2 vs 2 teams do we start in the same square as our partener or seperate?

No. The start blocks are still rolled randomly, but if you happen to get the same roll as your partner, then you start in the same box.


... unless of course, someone changed the rules again when I wasn't looking.
Zevox

03-28-07, 11:31 PM		Ok on 2 vs 2 teams do we start in the same square as our partener or seperate?
Could be either. As with normal fights, its randomized.

Zevox
hogarth

03-29-07, 12:06 AM		Sheesh, the wizard vs wizard fight in the sewers looks like it could go really fast.

Maybe faster than you think -- Malik has some problems with his equipment. See the Prison thread for details.
MindWandererB

03-29-07, 12:28 AM		@templer10: Tactics for Maya vs. Sabra Marana have been sent.

@McJarvis/TheMagister/Pitlords: Kervan is actually ECL 7, so being paired with Rubicanti is a problem.
Zevox

03-29-07, 12:35 AM		@ Tellish - Started on tactics for Ceilia, but decided I'd best wait until I'm well-rested to do them (6 hours of school + 5 of work = very tired). So I'll be sure to get those off tomorrow morning, since I recall your request for quick tactics.

@ Telin & Abyssal - Tactics for Istima/Ihdald and Asran will be tomorrow too, probably in the afternoon. I've been thinking about them for a while, but still need to finalize 'em.

Zevox
Tellish_of_Ket

03-29-07, 01:19 AM		@ Tellish - Started on tactics for Ceilia, but decided I'd best wait until I'm well-rested to do them (6 hours of school + 5 of work = very tired). So I'll be sure to get those off tomorrow morning, since I recall your request for quick tactics.

@ Telin & Abyssal - Tactics for Istima/Ihdald and Asran will be tomorrow too, probably in the afternoon. I've been thinking about them for a while, but still need to finalize 'em.

Zevox
No worries. I would just hate to have to rush it on a Monday.

@Templer10: Tactics for Psychosis sent in two PM's. Dang things were like 8000 characters. (and an addendum)
Malither76

03-29-07, 01:24 AM		Made fixes to Malik and posted in the prison, sent a PM to pitlords as only accounting changed so he may forfeit which is fine since he just got readded this morning after being gone a year. Anyways its good to be back guys looking forward to playing on here again.
Rauul

03-29-07, 02:06 AM		Well talk about me getting caught with my pants down... 2 miniquests.. time for me to get to work...

If i am your pitlord.. get me your tactics ASAP.. so i can get it out of the way..

teach me to not look at the higher level fights.. Sheesh
Abyssal Stalker

03-29-07, 02:11 AM		Made fixes to Malik and posted in the prison, sent a PM to pitlords as only accounting changed so he may forfeit which is fine since he just got readded this morning after being gone a year. Anyways its good to be back guys looking forward to playing on here again.
Welcome back!
Pitlords

03-29-07, 04:29 AM		Kervan[ECL7] (MindWandererB) & Rubicanti (TheMagister) vs. Unknown Monsters : McJarvis [Forest] [Team]

this is a new type of Battle of Gladius but it uses the same rules as guild operations matchups do so it should be ok. And we don't have any pitlords left anyway. McJarvis just rolls one monster from the EL 6 and one from the EL 7 table. McJarvis+1°.
hogarth

03-29-07, 06:55 AM		this is a new type of Battle of Gladius but it uses the same rules as guild operations matchups do so it should be ok. And we don't have any pitlords left anyway.

Huh? I thought Tellish was willing to take on all comers:
Tellish_of_Ket (31°) <max> [Late:0/6] [Offer: +1 Miniquest]
NiQil

03-29-07, 07:12 AM		@ templer10: Tactics for Caspian sent via PM
@ sonofzeal: Tactics for Kronos sent via PM
@ templer10: Tactics for Methos sent via PM
@ Horatius: Tactics for Silas sent via PM
@ Etiquette_Gnome: Tactics for Taren Rune sent via PM
templer10

03-29-07, 07:18 AM		question- now that i got the tactics about it already- what kind of gear dragons can use- btw a bleeding dragon with 7500 gold against a level 3 char is NOT equal lol.
Sjiggie

03-29-07, 07:23 AM		@ Templer & TelinArtho PM's received waiting on tactics of Telin to start the fight. I have no issue with the fight when Telin doesn't have any (and it seems he don't.)
templer10

03-29-07, 07:33 AM		another qustion - in the forest map it say - "The Canopy: The canopy is horizontaly impenetrable and at 30ft height. Medium and smaller creatures can walk through the thick canopy just like other creatures walk on the ground.....Anyone within the canopy gains cover and concealment against those outside the canopy"

what exacly does it mean? that you cant fly above the canopy? or that if you do all of those beneath 30 feet has cover and conceament or what?
Zevox

03-29-07, 09:08 AM		another qustion - in the forest map it say - "The Canopy: The canopy is horizontaly impenetrable and at 30ft height. Medium and smaller creatures can walk through the thick canopy just like other creatures walk on the ground.....Anyone within the canopy gains cover and concealment against those outside the canopy"

what exacly does it mean? that you cant fly above the canopy? or that if you do all of those beneath 30 feet has cover and conceament or what?
You cannot fly above it, but you can walk/fly within it (its the last 5' of height before that 30' maximum). If you do, you have cover and concealment vs anyone not in the canopy.

Zevox
Macbrea

03-29-07, 09:17 AM		Made fixes to Malik and posted in the prison, sent a PM to pitlords as only accounting changed so he may forfeit which is fine since he just got readded this morning after being gone a year. Anyways its good to be back guys looking forward to playing on here again.


I am fine with the fight being run after the edits. I never like winning by forfeit as I came to do a fight. The edits aren't important overall as you had the ability to pay for the items. And exactly how much is a haversack going to do in an arena battle anyways. I realize he was designed as a quest/campaign character by his equipment. So, go ahead and submit tactics with my blessing that the fight be run.
templer10

03-29-07, 09:17 AM		You cannot fly above it, but you can walk/fly within it (its the last 5' of height before that 30' maximum). If you do, you have cover and concealment vs anyone not in the canopy.

Zevoxbut you cant fly there if you are large- can i get an elder to confirm this just to make sure?

also- we have a house rule about vetical reach of large creatures?
Macbrea

03-29-07, 09:20 AM		That rule only applies if you have wings.
Zevox

03-29-07, 09:34 AM		but you cant fly there if you are large- can i get an elder to confirm this just to make sure?

also- we have a house rule about vetical reach of large creatures?
Correct on the former. Anything larger than medium can't fit into the canopy.

On the latter, no, we do not. Cat worded that thing absolutely terribly. The rule is that creatures with wings need twice their horizontal base in space to fly. Neither reach nor vertical space is in that rule at all. Cat just mixed up the words "horizontal" and "vertical" when he made that rule.

Zevox
templer10

03-29-07, 09:36 AM		Correct on the former. Anything larger than medium can't fit into the canopy.

On the latter, no, we do not. Cat worded that thing absolutely terribly. The rule is that creatures with wings need twice their horizontal base in space to fly. Neither reach nor vertical space is in that rule at all. Cat just mixed up the words "horizontal" and "vertical" when he made that rule.

Zevox

i actually meant- someone - large humanoid standing on the ground- how high can he reach?
Zevox

03-29-07, 09:39 AM		i actually meant- someone - large humanoid standing on the ground- how high can he reach?
Whatever distance he could reach normally. If he has a 10' reach, then than far, or 15-20' with a reach weapon (this being in addition to his height if hes attacking above him). If he lacks a 10' reach, then the same as a medium creature.

Zevox
Erithmu

03-29-07, 12:07 PM		Alright ...

@ToK: Tactics for Torel off for the keynote match of the ECL 7 bracket

@Zevox: you found the intercept, Arden's MQ is up Here

@TM: Waywreth and I almost have tactics for team set up, they are in final revision.
Zevox

03-29-07, 12:30 PM		@ ToK - Tactics for Ceilia Durrol (vs Torel Silvanus) have been PMed. I'm looking forward to that one.

Zevox
Tellish_of_Ket

03-29-07, 12:50 PM		Qwogi vs Heiracosphinx

Just how lucky can one man be? I've never seen so many +13 attacks miss than i have with this fight. That was one lucky little goblin.


ToK
hogarth

03-29-07, 12:53 PM		Tellish -- there are problems with Qwogi's miniquest.

He can't use Alter Self to turn into a gargoyle because goblins are not Monstrous Humanoids. Even if he were one, he can't cast it because he's a third level caster and a gargoyle has 4 HD. And even if he were a 4th level caster, he doesn't have a high enough Knowledge: Nature bonus to make it possible. And even if he did, Reduce Person would not work on a gargoyle or any other Monstrous Humanoid. And even if it did, CoCo house rules say that polymorphing size changes and other size changes don't stack.

That's all I've found so far, but I've just started reading the fight. ;)
Abyssal Stalker

03-29-07, 12:58 PM		Whatever distance he could reach normally. If he has a 10' reach, then than far, or 15-20' with a reach weapon (this being in addition to his height if hes attacking above him). If he lacks a 10' reach, then the same as a medium creature.

Zevox
But you should remember that the reach entry indicates how far a creature can attack - not how far it can actually reach things. A medium-sized character can attack the square above him, but he can't reach an object 10ft off the ground.
templer10

03-29-07, 12:58 PM		Tellish -- there are problems with Qwogi's miniquest.

He can't use Alter Self to turn into a gargoyle because goblins are not Monstrous Humanoids. Even if he were one, he can't cast it because he's a third level caster and a gargoyle has 4 HD. And even if he were a 4th level caster, he doesn't have a high enough Knowledge: Nature bonus to make it possible. And even if he did, Reduce Person would not work on a gargoyle or any other Monstrous Humanoid.

That's all I've found so far, but I've just started reading the fight. ;)

reduce person would have worked since alter self doesnt change type so he might look like he's monstrous humanoid but he's actually still humanoid.
TelinArtho

03-29-07, 01:13 PM		@TM and McJarvis: Chaos and the Beast is up and rearing to go.

Good luck - you're going to need it.

@Sjiggie - tactics for Bulgar sent.

@TM - tactics for Zax's portion of team tactics sent.
Tellish_of_Ket

03-29-07, 01:18 PM		Tellish -- there are problems with Qwogi's miniquest.

He can't use Alter Self to turn into a gargoyle because goblins are not Monstrous Humanoids. Even if he were one, he can't cast it because he's a third level caster and a gargoyle has 4 HD. And even if he were a 4th level caster, he doesn't have a high enough Knowledge: Nature bonus to make it possible. And even if he did, Reduce Person would not work on a gargoyle or any other Monstrous Humanoid. And even if it did, CoCo house rules say that polymorphing size changes and other size changes don't stack.

That's all I've found so far, but I've just started reading the fight. ;)
Reduce person would work. And in fact, he'd have been better off using trog form for the higher ac. That would actually mean both of those hits would miss. So either way, i think it's safe to say the outcome isn't affected as in trog form, Qwogi would have miraculously escaped injury.

And reduce person still works. He is still a humanoid no matter what. It doesn't change his type.


ToK
hogarth

03-29-07, 01:23 PM		Reduce person would work.

I stand corrected. But Enlarge Person wouldn't have worked (since size increasing spells don't stack).

EDIT: The AC is also off by one since you're incorporating the size bonus twice (once in Qwogi's original AC, and once with the Reduce Person). As you said, it didn't matter in the end. (Too bad the sphinx didn't try grappling... :devil:)
Tellish_of_Ket

03-29-07, 01:38 PM		I stand corrected. But Enlarge Person wouldn't have worked (since size increasing spells don't stack).

EDIT: The AC is also off by one since you're incorporating the size bonus twice (once in Qwogi's original AC, and once with the Reduce Person). As you said, it didn't matter in the end. (Too bad the sphinx didn't try grappling... :devil:)
I thought about it, but nothing in the sphinxes description (or intelligence) would give me any indication that it would attempt such an adaptive mode. To do that would have been very biased in favour of a monster for the simple exploitation of Qwogi's weakness. Even though i'm fairly strict, i'm also a very fair pitlord. That is a tactic that Telin would have used to utterly crush a hapless foe.

:hides: :incog:


ToK
MindWandererB

03-29-07, 02:14 PM		You cannot fly above it, but you can walk/fly within it (its the last 5' of height before that 30' maximum). If you do, you have cover and concealment vs anyone not in the canopy.

Zevox
I've always imagined this differently: that the canopy is the 5' of space above the 30' cap (so that a creature walking in the canopy has its feet at 30' and its head at 35'). If you don't do it that way, then a Large flyer can fly at an even altitude with a Medium canopy-walker.
Zevox

03-29-07, 02:19 PM		I've always imagined this differently: that the canopy is the 5' of space above the 30' cap (so that a creature walking in the canopy has its feet at 30' and its head at 35'). If you don't do it that way, then a Large flyer can fly at an even altitude with a Medium canopy-walker.
I don't see why that would be so, when the rules explicitly state that they can't enter the canopy. They can fly just below it, but not enter it.

Zevox
templer10

03-29-07, 02:29 PM		CAspian VS unknow monster is up here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11925210&postcount=717) - the results wont suprise anyone lol.
Zevox

03-29-07, 02:31 PM		CAspian VS unknow monster is up here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11925210&postcount=717) - the results wont suprise anyone lol.
You gave it a wand of magic missiles? Ouch - thats harsh.

Zevox
MindWandererB

03-29-07, 02:34 PM		I don't see why that would be so, when the rules explicitly state that they can't enter the canopy. They can fly just below it, but not enter it.

ZevoxWell, here's my reasoning, anyway.

The canopy is described as "horizontaly impenetrable and at 30ft height." That implies a horizontal "wall" at 30 feet. So we have this:
35'
30' ____
25' BB
20' BB
15'
10'
05' OO
00' OO H
Key: H Human
O ogre
B Dire BatWhich means that a character "in" the canopy would be at that altitude above the part that is "impenetrable" to the bat, i.e.:35'
30' H
25' BB
20' BB
15'
10'
05' OO
00' OO H
templer10

03-29-07, 02:38 PM		Well, here's my reasoning, anyway.

The canopy is described as "horizontaly impenetrable and at 30ft height." That implies a horizontal "wall" at 30 feet. So we have this:
35'
30' ____
25' BB
20' BB
15'
10'
05' OO
00' OO H
Key: H Human
O ogre
B Dire BatWhich means that a character "in" the canopy would be at that altitude above the part that is "impenetrable" to the bat, i.e.:35'
30' H
25' BB
20' BB
15'
10'
05' OO
00' OO H

sounds reasnable- by that- a large creature with reach weapon can reach anything exept soemething in the canopy.
templer10

03-29-07, 02:41 PM		You gave it a wand of magic missiles? Ouch - thats harsh.

Zevox

lol a CR 3 dragon has 7500 GP- what ELSE can i give it? it's what i would have taken as a sane gladiator.

hell even if i didnt a non spellcaster has no chance in hell against a dragon at ECL 3.
TelinArtho

03-29-07, 02:50 PM		That is a tactic that Telin would have used to utterly crush a hapless foe.

:hides: :incog:


ToK

Nice hiding in that one - a quick edit after I had already read it...

I'll get you my pretty - and that lil' doggy of yours too!

lol a CR 3 dragon has 7500 GP- what ELSE can i give it? it's what i would have taken as a sane gladiator.

hell even if i didnt a non spellcaster has no chance in hell against a dragon at ECL 3.

I would disagree with you here. In fact - once I kill off Bulgar (depending on how long he lasts), my next Dragonslayer will likely be a non-caster or a non-full caster (ranger for instance).
templer10

03-29-07, 02:53 PM		I would disagree with you here. In fact - once I kill off Bulgar (depending on how long he lasts), my next Dragonslayer will likely be a non-caster or a non-full caster (ranger for instance).

not in ECL 3 m8, not unless you get incredible lucky rolls and totally optimize for ranged combat.
TelinArtho

03-29-07, 03:02 PM		Well, honestly - most of the tricks Bulgar used would be equally effective with a straight fighter or ranger build. He wouldn't be optimized for ranged combat - but would be effective at both ranged and close combat.

For instance:

PBS (1st), Far Shot (Fighter 1)
Combat Expertise (Fighter 2), Improved Trip (3rd)

Include some bolas and tanglefoot bags (the latter of the two being exceptionally effective against flying creatures I might add...).

If he's human - add Improved disarm and disarm the bugger of any wand that he carries. A Brooch of Shielding will protect against a wand of Magic Missiles. A potion of Resist Energy made by a ranger would help as well (100gp instead of 50gp) - this last isn't too necessary as long as the dragon doesn't get crazy lucky on the breath weapon damage rolls.
SauroGrenom

03-29-07, 03:53 PM		Didn't Snowmelp have a thrown weapons character?

Handaxes if I recall correctly.

I've always wondered how well a thrown weapons character would do. Whenever I work through it, I always get problems with MAD.
McJarvis

03-29-07, 03:56 PM		Didn't Snowmelp have a thrown weapons character?

Handaxes if I recall correctly.

I've always wondered how well a thrown weapons character would do. Whenever I work through it, I always get problems with MAD.

I've always imagined that most of the problem is a matter of range. At least, that's why I've stayed away from thrown-weapon characters.
TelinArtho

03-29-07, 03:56 PM		Snommelp did have a thrown weapons character. I've always had one brewing but I haven't posted him yet (Le Lanceur - a halfling fighter).

And to be clear - the above character design uses some thrown items - but isn't really specialized in it. The real key is to force the dragon onto a level playing field - and perhaps injure it in the process...
TelinArtho

03-29-07, 04:01 PM		I've always imagined that most of the problem is a matter of range. At least, that's why I've stayed away from thrown-weapon characters.

Actually the biggest problem with normal thrown weapons is that they are vastly inferior to bows (and to a lesser extent crossbows).

A Javelin thrower deals 1d6 damage with a range increment of 30ft (60ft with far shot).

A Bow wielder deals 1d8 damage with a range increment of 110ft.

The thrower has to spend 3 feats for multiple shots early on (PBS, Rapid Shot, Quickdraw) while the Bow wielder only has to spend 2 (PBS, Rapid Shot). If the thrower wants to compete with the bow-wielder for distance - you better add on the Far Shot feat too...

However, a thrower with a variable strength could benefit greatly from thrown weapons (otherwise he needs to keep several strength bows). A thrower is not as supceptible to sundering (as he has many javelins or whatever).

If you have reduce person or compression - the thrower gets to benefit from being smaller and such (for better attack bonuses), but still deals his regular size damage dice.
Macbrea

03-29-07, 04:02 PM		Haven't all soulknives so far been thrown weapons combatants?
SauroGrenom

03-29-07, 04:02 PM		I've always imagined that most of the problem is a matter of range. At least, that's why I've stayed away from thrown-weapon characters.On our maps, and in most adventure settings, extreme range isn't necessary. Only the plains could be a problem. Even there, compensate with a mount of good movement speed to engage.

For me, there's the issue of strength to damage and dex to attack rolls, and a good movement speed and the equipment problem. Each thrown weapon is gone till the end of the fight. So you need 15 +1 throwing axes to equal a +1 bow. That's tough.

Monks get shirukens. But one of the appeals of a thrown weapon character is that you can put melee weapon enhancements on some of them. A spear with powerstoring and spellstoring is a good example. Shiruken's don't qualify for those enhancements.

The equipment problems and MAD have always stopped me.
TelinArtho

03-29-07, 04:05 PM		I forgot to mention a strong candidate for throwers - non-standard type weapons!

Bolas for tripping? Not your taste? Okay - how about acid, alchemist's fire, tanglefoot bags, etc etc.

The biggest issue in these cases is really the fact that they will eat into your profits quickly.

You can also get a faster rate of fire with thrown weapons - but you'll need to offset it with a decent attack modifier - because they stack nastily:

PBS, Far Shot, Rapid Shot
TWF, Improved TWF, Greater TWF
McJarvis

03-29-07, 04:17 PM		For me, there's the issue of strength to damage and dex to attack rolls

This one is kind of transparent since xbows get no str to damage(not an option) & bows have to be custom-made for it. All your other points are pretty valid, though...especially since returning weapons don't come back 'till the round after ya throw 'im. Perhaps the Soul Knife is best made for throwing stuff...and eventually you can buy the +1 spell storing whatever. (A soul knife is always considered magical, after all...)


Maybe Soul(blade/knife? forget which it is...hah) 1 // Psiwarrior X would work out. (or even Soulblade/knife 4, cutting out just before the BAB doesn't increase...though I daresay the psiwar levels are more worthwhile)
SauroGrenom

03-29-07, 04:24 PM		I worked on a monk11 duelist9 concept for a while. Using flurry of blows, GTWF and rapid shot, you can fire off a lot of monk weapons in a round with your +17 BAB.

You get 15/15/15/10/5/0 in the primary hand and 15/10/5 in the off hand.

Use Rapid Shot and Haste for a full attack throwing Shiruken...

Primary: +14/+14/+14/+14/+14/+9/+4/-1
Offhand: +14/+9/+4

That's eleven attacks/round. Not bad.

Now get a mount, and you can do it all the time while moving. But you're going to have trouble getting all the feats for mounted archery in addition to qualifying for the prestige class.
Maraxus

03-29-07, 04:42 PM		lol a CR 3 dragon has 7500 GP- what ELSE can i give it? it's what i would have taken as a sane gladiator.

hell even if i didnt a non spellcaster has no chance in hell against a dragon at ECL 3.

7500? Well, that's exactly the Price for Boots of levitation. I might have given him that. - But then again, I complained about the treasure for monsters thing before.

Dragons just put that on a new level.
Those monsters are toughter as they should be for their CR. As a little compensation for that, they earn the adventuring party tripple as much loot. - But what do we do? We take the overpowered challenge and put undeserved equipment on top of that times three!!!
The stronger a monster is to begin with, the more we buff it with equipment? I don't see the reasoning in that.



Sauro: I'd check if this is really useful. In many cases the 2nd hand might not pay of here. Let's say you get a total +8 from other sources for +22/+22/+22/+22/+22/+17/+12/+7/+22/+17/+12 then you could get 80% of a hit from leaving the last 3 attacks ... Meaning AC 32 and higher you better not use the second hand. ... No wait, you can take rapid shot down first...
NiQil

03-29-07, 04:49 PM		@ templer10: If it had had to actually approach me, I might have stood a chance...but giving it the ability to just stay away and auto-hit is just dirty pool. Lord Lorian's revenge, perhaps? :P

Also, you need to give me a total on used arrows in the fight results. By my count, there are 1 hit and 4 misses...so give me a 50/50 on those 4 and edit the results, if you please.
Rauul

03-29-07, 04:50 PM		@TM tactics for Graashnak sent...

If i was gonna rebuild this charater... he would definately take ranger and enemy ELF!! (7 fights.. 5 vs elfs)
Sjiggie

03-29-07, 05:13 PM		@ Usernamer didn't see I had to run your MQ it is up now here
MindWandererB

03-29-07, 05:28 PM		From "Vengeful Philosophers:"I just realized that I'm going to be hunting down a dumb Human Wizard 11 .. ugga 6th lvl spells ... Not so. The predetermined race/class combos are only for PMG attacks. When you do a miniquest, the questlord rolls a random encounter off the appropriate table.

@McJarvis: You did notice that you're running Kervan & Rubicanti vs. Monster and Monster, right? My condolences and apologies. Please do the rolls and Knowledge when you get a chance.
templer10

03-29-07, 06:08 PM		@ templer10: If it had had to actually approach me, I might have stood a chance...but giving it the ability to just stay away and auto-hit is just dirty pool. Lord Lorian's revenge, perhaps? :P

Also, you need to give me a total on used arrows in the fight results. By my count, there are 1 hit and 4 misses...so give me a 50/50 on those 4 and edit the results, if you please.

lol really not a revenge - i made the dragon before i even looked at your char sheet so had no idead what he can do- just thought as a low level dragon who i already gave hover and ability to turn in place what is the best kill my enemy item i can buy and thats MM wand.

will edit shortly - doing another fight now
McJarvis

03-29-07, 06:35 PM		@McJarvis: You did notice that you're running Kervan & Rubicanti vs. Monster and Monster, right? My condolences and apologies. Please do the rolls and Knowledge when you get a chance.

Someone else will have to take this fight or I'll have to run it very late.(Tuesday night) I've already made plans for tonight and tomorrow night is my only time to run it before tuesday. If I'd known it was a monster fight before now, I would have been able to prepare properly....(got your note about it being invalid, but with no correspondence from Pitlords about the change there was no way for me to know anything happened except for assuming the fight got canceled & the characters were moved on to next week)

Would have done it now, but I'm afraid I have company & really only had time to check in for new messages//forum posts....
TelinArtho

03-29-07, 06:53 PM		I'll grab it - give me a moment to write up the knowledge.

EDIT - and posted!
templer10

03-29-07, 07:22 PM		Methos VS tagg is up and here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11927186&postcount=718)

very close fight.
MindWandererB

03-29-07, 07:53 PM		I'll grab it - give me a moment to write up the knowledge.

EDIT - and posted!
Interesting... I can more easily narrow down the one that we know less about, just because of that Huge size (and the fact that none of our Knowledges apply to it).

You can give us a bit more on the outsider, though. "1+ Ranks: Size, Type, Description (huge magical beast with many heads)," so can you give a description, please? That could help a lot.
TaggIIV

03-29-07, 10:38 PM		tactics for nyphanalith sent to rauul
Tellish_of_Ket

03-30-07, 02:16 AM		Ugh...sorry to Erith and Zevox. Was nearing end of match-up, when i noticed Celia used a large shield instead of small. :(

Gonna have to take a break and go back through and see which extra attacks hit Celia now. ugh. I'll finish it up in the morning. I actually fell asleep at the keyboard a few times, so i wanna look at it with fresh eyes in the morning.

If u look at the roller, the dice are way lopsided against Celia, but dangit, she's still hanging in there.


ToK
*EDIT: It may show i'm online, but i'm not...i just don't wanna close all my tabs, so leaving brower/comp on overnight.
Zevox

03-30-07, 03:22 AM		Ugh...sorry to Erith and Zevox. Was nearing end of match-up, when i noticed Celia used a large shield instead of small. :(

Gonna have to take a break and go back through and see which extra attacks hit Celia now.
Hit? Shouldn't that be "miss" due to the AC being higher?

Anyway, I can already tell you looking at those dice I probably have a major complaint. Protection from Evil contingency vs summons seems to have been ignored (else the Lion and Hippogriff wouldn't have ever hurt Ceilia). Can't say aught else until the fight is posted, but theres a forewarning for ya.

Zevox
templer10

03-30-07, 04:18 AM		question- i have a team fight with Petit Guepe (Horatius) against Nymphanalith (TaggIV) and althrough i PMed horatius several times he hasnt responded to me so i dont know if he is working on tactics or whatnot.

i will be going out of the house in a few hours and wont be back until after deadline most likely So i need to know what to do-
send just my tacticis? write tactics for both of us?
hogarth

03-30-07, 08:53 AM		@SauroGrenom: Please fix the rewards for Kilpquabjeg's miniquest. She should receive 1688 xp and 1875 gp (not 1800/2000) because of her horse.
Erithmu

03-30-07, 09:54 AM		Ugh...sorry to Erith and Zevox. Was nearing end of match-up, when i noticed Celia used a large shield instead of small. :(

Gonna have to take a break and go back through and see which extra attacks hit Celia now. ugh. I'll finish it up in the morning. I actually fell asleep at the keyboard a few times, so i wanna look at it with fresh eyes in the morning.

If u look at the roller, the dice are way lopsided against Celia, but dangit, she's still hanging in there.


ToK
*EDIT: It may show i'm online, but i'm not...i just don't wanna close all my tabs, so leaving brower/comp on overnight.I think I may see a couple of concerns as well, but I'll reserve comment for after the fight. If you were falling asleep, I'm sure you will see other things as well.

EDIT: Well maybe one thing: Lion pounces in round 6. In order to pounce you have to charge. This would imply that a) the lion gets +2 to his attacks (causing the bite to hit, which it should hit Rook anyways unless Ceilia buffed it's AC) or b) the Lion doesn't get his rakes.
Macbrea

03-30-07, 10:37 AM		You ever notice the days you have that you can easily work on fights people don't send you tactics. They seem to wait til the last moment to send them, sheesh...
TheMagister

03-30-07, 10:47 AM		Hey, I gave what warning I could...
TelinArtho

03-30-07, 11:07 AM		Interesting... I can more easily narrow down the one that we know less about, just because of that Huge size (and the fact that none of our Knowledges apply to it).

You can give us a bit more on the outsider, though. "1+ Ranks: Size, Type, Description (huge magical beast with many heads)," so can you give a description, please? That could help a lot.

Okay - how about a Medium Multi-armed Outsider...

That would probably narrow it down so much that it wouldn't have mattered...
Tellish_of_Ket

03-30-07, 11:12 AM		@Erithmu/Zevox: Yup, i'm aware of all those issues as well. I'm awake, gonna go back to the drawing board and edit the notes on the rolls to reflect it all.

And yes Zevox you did use your pro evil, it was the call lightning that killed Rook after the lions initial charge. But with compounded sleep-errors, u'll still have it to defend against the hippogriff.

Working on it now, so it will be a few, and i'll clean it up.


ToK
TheMagister

03-30-07, 11:18 AM		@Telin and MWB: Rubicanti's part of the tactics sent to Telin, and to MWB for perusal and modification (if necessary).

TM
TheMagister

03-30-07, 11:20 AM		Okay - how about a Medium Multi-armed Outsider...

That would probably narrow it down so much that it wouldn't have mattered...

OH! Well, that's new information. Lemme take a look at a monster manual.
TelinArtho

03-30-07, 11:38 AM		@Telin and MWB: Rubicanti's part of the tactics sent to Telin, and to MWB for perusal and modification (if necessary).

TM

Received.

Also have received tactics for Relanex and Malik in their fight.

I will probably start running the IMT fight first though... it just looks like fun to run :)
Hirumajoe

03-30-07, 11:38 AM		@Macbrea: Tactics sent for Valen versus the Stone Giant.

I'm starting to wonder if I'm being silly for putting of my flight ability until 10th level. Given the way I expect this fight to go...
TheMagister

03-30-07, 11:44 AM		Received.

Also have received tactics for Relanex and Malik in their fight.

I will probably start running the IMT fight first though... it just looks like fun to run :)

Okay, the tactics I sent you are fine, though I'd still like MWB to take a look at them before you run the fight.

Thanks for the clarification!

I'm off to the TBD miniquest now.

TM
TelinArtho

03-30-07, 11:48 AM		Okay, the tactics I sent you are fine, though I'd still like MWB to take a look at them before you run the fight.

Thanks for the clarification!

I'm off to the TBD miniquest now.

TM

No worries - you guys have some time as it will be the last fight I run (since it is an extra fight - not one of my regularly assigned). Shouldn't be a problem in any case, but as usual - it might not appear until Monday.
Tellish_of_Ket

03-30-07, 12:02 PM		Quick Question: If a lion charges and gets it's rake attacks as part of pounce, and then succeeds with the bite and the ensuing opposed grapple, does it get to make yet ANOTHER rake attack in that round from winning the grapple?


ToK
Erithmu

03-30-07, 12:05 PM		Quick Question: If a lion charges and gets it's rake attacks as part of pounce, and then succeeds with the bite and the ensuing opposed grapple, does it get to make yet ANOTHER rake attack in that round from winning the grapple?


ToKNo ... The monster has to start the round in the grapple to use it's rake attacks w/in the grapple
Zevox

03-30-07, 12:10 PM		And yes Zevox you did use your pro evil, it was the call lightning that killed Rook after the lions initial charge. But with compounded sleep-errors, u'll still have it to defend against the hippogriff.
Um, I wasn't talking about Rook. I got the impression he was down before I could cast that anyway. I was talking about casting it on herself so no summons could bother her.

Zevox
Tellish_of_Ket

03-30-07, 12:17 PM		Um, I wasn't talking about Rook. I got the impression he was down before I could cast that anyway. I was talking about casting it on herself so no summons could bother her.

Zevox
Roger that. I'm in round 6 and it currently is on you. Because i missed the +2 charging, Rook died in that one round, so no need for the lion to maintain grapple.

The biggest problem that is presenting itself, is Celia's contingencies rely on scrolls. So i'm having to adapt around it a bit, to ensure she has a free hand to cast them. This will inevitably cause some problems and i'm sure you'll complain, but the alternatives aren't pretty either. Sheath wand (provoking), draw scroll, cast contingency next round (and then the contingency is over, and before you cast it, it's done and gone), or drop wand, draw scroll, and cast. Both scenarios leave u without your shield equipped, which means a significant AC reduction in your case.

So, right now i'm on round 6 of the review.


ToK
Zevox

03-30-07, 12:41 PM		Roger that. I'm in round 6 and it currently is on you. Because i missed the +2 charging, Rook died in that one round, so no need for the lion to maintain grapple.

The biggest problem that is presenting itself, is Celia's contingencies rely on scrolls. So i'm having to adapt around it a bit, to ensure she has a free hand to cast them. This will inevitably cause some problems and i'm sure you'll complain, but the alternatives aren't pretty either. Sheath wand (provoking), draw scroll, cast contingency next round (and then the contingency is over, and before you cast it, it's done and gone), or drop wand, draw scroll, and cast. Both scenarios leave u without your shield equipped, which means a significant AC reduction in your case.

So, right now i'm on round 6 of the review.


ToK
*shrugs* I understand you need to make judgement calls on things like that. Generally speaking, I'd go with the one that gets the contingency up faster, but you're then one running the fight, so its your decision.

Zevox
Tellish_of_Ket

03-30-07, 12:44 PM		*shrugs* I understand you need to make judgement calls on things like that. Generally speaking, I'd go with the one that gets the contingency up faster, but you're then one running the fight, so its your decision.

Zevox
Ya, tough call, because sheathing a wand provokes and AoO as well. So i had to go with the safest route. I also just noticed in round 6 (when ur turn came) is you have an ambigious spot in your tactics. Well, an anomoly more like it. You have two different actions to perform given a single scenario that wasn't accounted for. You had if rook dies, go to melee strategy, but you also have when you spot bat, to cast SW. Ur anti-summoning went off first before you could SW, then Rook died the next round. SOoooo, i had you cast SW first, then u'll go to melee tactics. It seemed the most logical way to approach it. So, if that's wrong, correct me if i am before it gets too far in the review.




ToK
Erithmu

03-30-07, 12:48 PM		I'll throw in another little bug here ... I think Ceilia needs a soft fall ride check.
Zevox

03-30-07, 12:49 PM		Ya, tough call, because sheathing a wand provokes and AoO as well. So i had to go with the safest route. I also just noticed in round 6 (when ur turn came) is you have an ambigious spot in your tactics. Well, an anomoly more like it. You have two different actions to perform given a single scenario that wasn't accounted for. You had if rook dies, go to melee strategy, but you also have when you spot bat, to cast SW. Ur anti-summoning went off first before you could SW, then Rook died the next round. SOoooo, i had you cast SW first, then u'll go to melee tactics. It seemed the most logical way to approach it. So, if that's wrong, correct me if i am before it gets too far in the review.




ToK
No problem, that sounds right. Having the weapon as support to bring the Bat down faster was the whole point of it. Carry on :thumbsup: .

Zevox
Tellish_of_Ket

03-30-07, 01:02 PM		No problem, that sounds right. Having the weapon as support to bring the Bat down faster was the whole point of it. Carry on :thumbsup: .

Zevox
More bad news...you failed ur concentration check to cast it. :(

Man, the dice gods HATE you, and Torel is laying the smack down with awesome rolls.


ToK
Tellish_of_Ket

03-30-07, 01:05 PM		I'll throw in another little bug here ... I think Ceilia needs a soft fall ride check.
Yup, i just finished round 6...it's in there, amongst the throngs and tangled web of dice rolls.


ToK
Erithmu

03-30-07, 01:07 PM		*Raises Hand*

I promise to stop backseat pitlording until the fight is done.
NiQil

03-30-07, 01:19 PM		*Raises Hand*

I promise to stop backseat pitlording until the fight is done.
Don't make us turn this car around....
Tellish_of_Ket

03-30-07, 01:24 PM		DANGIT!!! Huge emergency just happened at home...for cryin' out loud...grrr.

Gotta jet. I'll finish it up as soon as i can. I'll be real honest, it's a doosy, might take a long time.



ToK
MindWandererB

03-30-07, 02:47 PM		Okay - how about a Medium Multi-armed Outsider...

That would probably narrow it down so much that it wouldn't have mattered...
Okay. I'll start on my tactics now. They might be a smidge late by the strict deadline, but I gather you have other fights to run anyway.
TelinArtho

03-30-07, 02:48 PM		Yeah - no problem this time.
Macbrea

03-30-07, 03:01 PM		Stone Giant crushes Valen Sky on the open plains.
Hirumajoe

03-30-07, 03:08 PM		Stone Giant crushes Valen Sky on the open plains.

Sigh. Why do I roll ones on the rolls that should be auto-hits? I seriously need to invest in a lucky weapon or something...

Thanks for the run. It looks right, and was about what I was expecting. :)
Tellish_of_Ket

03-30-07, 03:09 PM		DANGIT!!! Huge emergency just happened at home...for cryin' out loud...grrr.

Gotta jet. I'll finish it up as soon as i can. I'll be real honest, it's a doosy, might take a long time.



ToK
I'm back on the case. :)
Macbrea

03-30-07, 03:21 PM		Sigh. Why do I roll ones on the rolls that should be auto-hits? I seriously need to invest in a lucky weapon or something...

Thanks for the run. It looks right, and was about what I was expecting. :)

Yeah, was a pretty straight up walk toward you and throw rock fight. If your ectoplasm hit. His only option is to take hits from you for next 5 founds then proceed toward you. At some point I would tap his healing but otherwise was pretty generic tactics.


And your right.... you didn't want the ECL 9 fight you got set in with Valen. 10 is pyrohydra.
Hirumajoe

03-30-07, 03:29 PM		Yeah, was a pretty straight up walk toward you and throw rock fight. If your ectoplasm hit. His only option is to take hits from you for next 5 founds then proceed toward you. At some point I would tap his healing but otherwise was pretty generic tactics.


And your right.... you didn't want the ECL 9 fight you got set in with Valen. 10 is pyrohydra.

Nevermind... They have fast healing... Yeah, that would have been worse.
hogarth

03-30-07, 03:31 PM		Uhh what! Yes I did! Can I have the Pyrohydra instead? Please? :D

Pyrohydra have no ranged attacks. Ok their breath has a range of 20'. And they move 20 feet, or 80 feet on a *charge*. With Lightning I could have easily kept a 100' distance. That would have been an auto-win though, so you'd probably have to re-roll...

I'd be impressed if you could do enough damage to get through that Fast Healing 18 with archery alone, though!

EDIT: ninja'ed
Hirumajoe

03-30-07, 03:38 PM		I'd be impressed if you could do enough damage to get through that Fast Healing 18 with archery alone, though!

EDIT: ninja'ed

Actually... They're only AC 15 base. Assume I'm at 1 range increment (so -2 to hit). I can pump 4 points into Off Prescience and get +3 to damage. Figure moving penalty of -4 to hit and rapid shot for -2. I can also pump +2 to Off Precog for +2 to hit. Along with Animal Affinity Dex +4. So I'm at a net 10 + 2 + 2 - 8 = +6 vs AC 15. That's 12 hits out of every 20 or 60% on the rapid fire mains and 7/20 or 35% on the 3rd shot. Average damage is 1d8+5 or 9.5 per hit. So I average about 14.725 per round. I'm actually only about 4 damage short per round. Give me another level and I'd be averaging 19.55 a round (after crafting a Might +4 bow and using Animal Affinity Strength). So yeah, as a physical archer at the correct level, I could probably take it down.

When I finally hit 10 though, all bets are off. Rapid Firing Annis Hag with a +9 mighty bow. -3 to ranged (-2 for dex and -1 for size) but I also get +2 BAB and another +1 from Offensive Precog. 29.45 damage a round versus a CR 10 Pyrohydra. - Although, there might be the not fitting on my mount problem.... Need to invest in an Elephant or something I guess...
hogarth

03-30-07, 03:46 PM		Actually... They're only AC 15 base.
An 8-headed hydra has AC 18.

Give me another level and I'd be averaging 19.55 a round (after crafting a Might +4 bow and using Animal Affinity Strength). So yeah, as a physical archer, I could probably take it down.
3 arrows to do 1.55 damage = 169 arrows to do 87 damage. Hope you packed a bunch of 'em! ;)

I agree, though -- a mounted archer can cause a lot of damage on a big map.
Hirumajoe

03-30-07, 03:53 PM		Woops, you're right. Was reading the 5 headed one's AC apparently.

That actually takes a big chunk of damage off. Perhaps I should start investing in my ranged equipment... Mighty +4 bow with +1 Enhancement and Psychkinetic (for 3.5 more damage on average per arrow plus the extra 2 from strength).
Macbrea

03-30-07, 03:56 PM		The problem with that is my tactics for a hydra would be:


Run to base opponent
Once based attack with all heads.
If opponent moves away run/double move to base.

This would take awhile to run the fight.
TheMagister

03-30-07, 04:20 PM		That would be a neat fight for Hood, eh?

I'm just totally in love with that build. You guys should see what I did with him when I built him using all the Complete + Other Splat books. {Shudder}

Something like a 120+ point avg. dmg alpha strike by level 16. It's beautiful. {wipes tear}

Of course, it ain't nuthin next to a wizard of equivalent level, but damn, it's fine.

TM
McJarvis

03-30-07, 04:23 PM		That would be a neat fight for Hood, eh?

I'm just totally in love with that build. You guys should see what I did with him when I built him using all the Complete + Other Splat books. {Shudder}

Something like a 120+ point avg. dmg alpha strike by level 16. It's beautiful. {wipes tear}

Of course, it ain't nuthin next to a wizard of equivalent level, but damn, it's fine.

TM

That entirely depends on how often the wizard has to do it :)
Tellish_of_Ket

03-30-07, 04:37 PM		Celia vs Torrel

Comments? Complaints? Rude comments?


ToK
MindWandererB

03-30-07, 05:14 PM		@TelinArtho: Tactics for Kervan's side have been sent--and I see that TM made a final addendum as well.
TheMagister

03-30-07, 05:16 PM		f) If any gain could be had by setting a tree or undergrowth on fire, use the flame lash for that purpose. Rubi looks for any excuse to burn stuff.

Oh, and put out any fires Rubicant starts.

Kill-joy. :mage: :monk:
Erithmu

03-30-07, 05:26 PM		Celia vs Torrel

Comments? Complaints? Rude comments?

ToKI might call for a rematch next level ...

@ToK: comment but doesn't need changing for the fight as I'm sure it wouldn't matter. Resist Energy and Protection from Energy are two different things. Resist takes damage off every attack, Protection is a sponge that works similar to vigor. I don't think I did 60pts of damage with the 6 bolts I had in Call lightning. I probably should have written better endgame tactics but I missed the fact that Ceilia has the Protection scroll (due to a slight renaming)
MindWandererB

03-30-07, 05:57 PM		Kill-joy. :mage: :monk:
Dude... nature-cleric here. Not the best partner for burning forests with.
TheMagister

03-30-07, 06:23 PM		In sitcom-TV terms, he's actually the best partner. Zany Hijinks.

TM
Horatius

03-30-07, 06:57 PM		question- i have a team fight with Petit Guepe (Horatius) against Nymphanalith (TaggIV) and althrough i PMed horatius several times he hasnt responded to me so i dont know if he is working on tactics or whatnot.

i will be going out of the house in a few hours and wont be back until after deadline most likely So i need to know what to do-
send just my tacticis? write tactics for both of us?

Sorry, was away from home and had very spotty internet access. Thanks for writing the tactics you did.
templer10

03-30-07, 07:02 PM		Sorry, was away from home and had very spotty internet access. Thanks for writing the tactics you did.

NP - i hope we have half a chance - druids have so many options i Wrote a lot of stuff.


poor rauul- 2.5 pm's....
Tellish_of_Ket

03-30-07, 07:32 PM		I might call for a rematch next level ...

@ToK: comment but doesn't need changing for the fight as I'm sure it wouldn't matter. Resist Energy and Protection from Energy are two different things. Resist takes damage off every attack, Protection is a sponge that works similar to vigor. I don't think I did 60pts of damage with the 6 bolts I had in Call lightning. I probably should have written better endgame tactics but I missed the fact that Ceilia has the Protection scroll (due to a slight renaming)
Actually, i only looked at resist energy (sonic), because your call lightning was sonic based and his pro energy was lightning-based. He had res energy 10 (sonic), pro energy-lightning(60), and resist energy 10 (fire). Three different types of resist. Ur sonic call lighting was only affected by his res energy 10 (sonic).

I mean, that guy took a beating and had the worst rolls for like 11 or 12 rds, then his luck started to turn around. He reminds me of Krunch. Someone who can just take a boat-load of dmg, attacks and keep on going.

The thing is, is you fought someone who was completely geared against you. He had all ur resistances, he had protection vs ur neutral and good summons. It's almost like he bribed Cat to fight you specifically.


ToK
Erithmu

03-30-07, 08:52 PM		Actually, i only looked at resist energy (sonic), because your call lightning was sonic based and his pro energy was lightning-based. He had res energy 10 (sonic), pro energy-lightning(60), and resist energy 10 (fire). Three different types of resist. Ur sonic call lighting was only affected by his res energy 10 (sonic).

I mean, that guy took a beating and had the worst rolls for like 11 or 12 rds, then his luck started to turn around. He reminds me of Krunch. Someone who can just take a boat-load of dmg, attacks and keep on going.

The thing is, is you fought someone who was completely geared against you. He had all ur resistances, he had protection vs ur neutral and good summons. It's almost like he bribed Cat to fight you specifically.


ToKWell I was using the Call lighting (elec) or asked to. If I had been a true druid he would have run into my friend Dispel Magic, something I am looking forward to very much next level.
Tellish_of_Ket

03-30-07, 08:54 PM		Well I was using the Call lighting (elec) or asked to. If I had been a true druid he would have run into my friend Dispel Magic, something I am looking forward to very much next level.
The only call lightning i see on your sheet is the sonic one. the other is (x2) crossed out. But now that you are mentioning this, i guess i was wrong in thinking it meant 0...right? ugh. Prolly means you still had one casting left. I'll quickly add it up, and see if it goes over 60.


ToK
Erithmu

03-30-07, 08:55 PM		The only call lightning i see on your sheet is the sonic one. the other is (x2) crossed out. But now that you are mentioning this, i guess i was wrong in thinking it meant 0...right? ugh. Prolly means you still had one casting left. I'll quickly add it up, and see if it goes over 60.


ToKDon't worry about it ... Ceilia heals up after the fact
Tellish_of_Ket

03-30-07, 08:58 PM		The net result is 3 more pts of dmg are dealt. <shrugs> What can i say.


ToK
Erithmu

03-30-07, 09:05 PM		Actually I noticed a small rewards error ... Rook was turned into lion chow
Tellish_of_Ket

03-30-07, 09:08 PM		phew! thx. done
Zevox

03-30-07, 10:09 PM		Celia vs Torrel

Comments? Complaints? Rude comments?


ToK
*Breaths sigh of relief* Whew! I don't mind telling you, I was quite worried after seeing those rolls before. With Rook dead so fast I wasn't at all sure Ceilia could pull it off. Glad to see those rolls reversed. I was beginning to think that there might be something to that myth about the number 13 being unlucky after all (this being Ceilia's 13th fight).

But anyway, no major errors I can note that 'Rith didn't already give ya. Biggest one was sometimes calling Ceilia "he" instead of "she" ;) . Thanks for running it!

This was a costly fight, though. Ceilia now has two fights to go through with no flying mount and no energy resistances. Blech. I'd better hope she doesn't end up regretting that. Guess I do have the small consolation that Torel's mount is also dead (though just for one fight instead of two).

I might call for a rematch next level ...
I'd take you up on that. Though you should know, a Ring of Counterspells is on Ceilia's shopping list for this level, and next level she'll hopefully have a Djinni skeleton ally to help pummel you ;) . Which would actually be an amusing encounter to RP, given the typical Druidic opinion of the undead.

Zevox
Erithmu

03-30-07, 10:59 PM		*Breaths sigh of relief* Whew! I don't mind telling you, I was quite worried after seeing those rolls before. With Rook dead so fast I wasn't at all sure Ceilia could pull it off. Glad to see those rolls reversed. I was beginning to think that there might be something to that myth about the number 13 being unlucky after all (this being Ceilia's 13th fight).

But anyway, no major errors I can note that 'Rith didn't already give ya. Biggest one was sometimes calling Ceilia "he" instead of "she" ;) . Thanks for running it!

This was a costly fight, though. Ceilia now has two fights to go through with no flying mount and no energy resistances. Blech. I'd better hope she doesn't end up regretting that. Guess I do have the small consolation that Torel's mount is also dead (though just for one fight instead of two).Torel has decent movement as well, I'm not too worried. I still have more than a fair number of spells to work with. What will be nice is when I take another couple of druid levels to get the AC boosts and a feat and trick, better tanking

I'd take you up on that. Though you should know, a Ring of Counterspells is on Ceilia's shopping list for this level, and next level she'll hopefully have a Djinni skeleton ally to help pummel you ;) . Which would actually be an amusing encounter to RP, given the typical Druidic opinion of the undead.

ZevoxYou should know ... You will find that my 4th level slots will go all towards Dispel Magic for a while, (Gotta craft a couple of pearls for that slot as well). Later on I'll put in a FoM, or Flame strike ... but for now .. we dispel, dispel and dispel.
Rauul

03-30-07, 11:27 PM		NP - i hope we have half a chance - druids have so many options i Wrote a lot of stuff.


poor rauul- 2.5 pm's....

Yea i have a PM box full... will run it after i read them 2-3 times (i hate spread out tactics... things get missed and you will want me to rerun it.. cause of some wierd tactics on page 3 paragraph 27)
templer10

03-31-07, 02:37 AM		Yea i have a PM box full... will run it after i read them 2-3 times (i hate spread out tactics... things get missed and you will want me to rerun it.. cause of some wierd tactics on page 3 paragraph 27)

Sorry m8- druids are a pain in the butt- and writing for 2 peeps also.... if you have questions PM me.
TheMagister

03-31-07, 05:32 PM		Zax and Graashnak vs. Matthis and Erithmu is up.

I apologize in advance to the principles of this contest.

My employers keep their servers in Houston, which just got hammered by a band of heavy thunderstorms. Consequently, I lost all internet access for about 5.5 hrs, time I needed to have to finish this fight.

I had no choice...I went to manual rolls. Everything is documented and spelled out, and all modifiers are plain to see. I'm sorry for the inconvenience, guys; if I fall behind on these, they just don't get done -- and I don't want to do that to anyone.

TM
Erithmu

03-31-07, 05:43 PM		Zax and Graashnak vs. Matthis and Erithmu is up.

I apologize in advance to the principles of this contest.

My employers keep their servers in Houston, which just got hammered by a band of heavy thunderstorms. Consequently, I lost all internet access for about 5.5 hrs, time I needed to have to finish this fight.

I had no choice...I went to manual rolls. Everything is documented and spelled out, and all modifiers are plain to see. I'm sorry for the inconvenience, guys; if I fall behind on these, they just don't get done -- and I don't want to do that to anyone.

TMNo fight stuff ... just my political career stuff to be added.
TheMagister

03-31-07, 06:01 PM		Bah. I'll get right on that.

Edit: Done.

TM
templer10

03-31-07, 06:55 PM		Maya Vs sabre is up here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11945289&postcount=722) - Started for 1 side then totally shifted to the one- i loled on the CONFIRMED! crit (double 20's) with unarmed strike with -15 to hit for 2 subdual dmg.....
MindWandererB

03-31-07, 07:15 PM		Maya Vs sabre is up here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11945289&postcount=722) - Started for 1 side then totally shifted to the one- i loled on the CONFIRMED! crit (double 20's) with unarmed strike with -15 to hit for 2 subdual dmg.....
Just a few corrections needed, IMO:

You mix the names up continuously--I was particularly fond of "Maya moves the fire Closer to maya."

Maya is wearing armor spikes, so she gets AoOs for all those unarmed strikes. Might end the fight faster, save me some charges. However, these unarmed strikes only provoke an AoO from their target, not from anyone else who happened to be nearby.

Maya used 8 PP, not 7. You have it right in the round-by-round but wrong in the 3FC section.
templer10

03-31-07, 07:20 PM		Just a few corrections needed, IMO:

You mix the names up continuously--I was particularly fond of "Maya moves the fire Closer to maya."

Maya is wearing armor spikes, so she gets AoOs for all those unarmed strikes. Might end the fight faster, save me some charges. However, these unarmed strikes only provoke an AoO from their target, not from anyone else who happened to be nearby.

Maya used 8 PP, not 7. You have it right in the round-by-round but wrong in the 3FC section.

errr- will edit the 3fc the and the notes- i think only of these AoA hited so shouldnt mutter much- ill do a quick rerolls for the armor spikes if it wont hit i wont bother editing unles it really matters to you.
MindWandererB

03-31-07, 07:30 PM		errr- will edit the 3fc the and the notes- i think only of these AoA hited so shouldnt mutter much- ill do a quick rerolls for the armor spikes if it wont hit i wont bother editing unles it really matters to you.
Not a big deal. Maya's chance of hitting is only 1 higher than Calabash's... which changes the AoO in round 14 only. Yeah, I would appreciate that small edit, since it would save me 3 charges. Oh, and your link to the roller is broken.
templer10

03-31-07, 07:35 PM		Just a few corrections needed, IMO:


Maya is wearing armor spikes, so she gets AoOs for all those unarmed strikes. Might end the fight faster, save me some charges. However, these unarmed strikes only provoke an AoO from their target, not from anyone else who happened to be nearby.



Lucky bastard - 2 hits with +5 against AC 22 cut down the dorja to 5 charges.

i edited so it reflects that.
MindWandererB

03-31-07, 07:49 PM		Lucky bastard - 2 hits with +5 against AC 22 cut down the dorja to 5 charges.

i edited so it reflects that.
Much appreciated.
Rauul

03-31-07, 09:10 PM		Zax and Graashnak vs. Matthis and Erithmu is up.

I apologize in advance to the principles of this contest.

My employers keep their servers in Houston, which just got hammered by a band of heavy thunderstorms. Consequently, I lost all internet access for about 5.5 hrs, time I needed to have to finish this fight.

I had no choice...I went to manual rolls. Everything is documented and spelled out, and all modifiers are plain to see. I'm sorry for the inconvenience, guys; if I fall behind on these, they just don't get done -- and I don't want to do that to anyone.

TM

thanks for the run.. sorry for the 5rd delay tactics but well the druid is never Solo.. not with that group of of weapons.. gives the orc time to have one last drink yanno
SauroGrenom

03-31-07, 10:15 PM		What's the saving throw on an extraordinary ability?

For supernatural abilities it's usually 10+1/2HD+stat mod. But what is the stat mod to use? It doesn't always specify. This case is an Erinyes with the entangling rope. There's a reflex save in the animate rope spell, so what's the DC?
Vathelokai

03-31-07, 10:22 PM		What's the saving throw on an extraordinary ability?

For supernatural abilities it's usually 10+1/2HD+stat mod. But what is the stat mod to use? It doesn't always specify. This case is an Erinyes with the entangling rope. There's a reflex save in the animate rope spell, so what's the DC?

(Ex) Entangle: Each erinyes carries a stout rope some 50 feet long that entangles opponents of any size as an animate rope spell (caster level 16th).

I was thinking that it would be treated as spell like; all her other DCs are charisma based.

That is an odd one.
hogarth

03-31-07, 10:23 PM		What's the saving throw on an extraordinary ability?

For supernatural abilities it's usually 10+1/2HD+stat mod. But what is the stat mod to use? It doesn't always specify. This case is an Erinyes with the entangling rope. There's a reflex save in the animate rope spell, so what's the DC?

Note: I believe the rope is a special item, not an innate ability (it lists the rope under "treasure" and there's no wording specifying that it's an effect produced by the erinyes like there is for a bearded devil's or horned devil's infenal wound). So I guess I'd use the magic item save (10+spell level+minimum ability score mod = 11).
waywreth

04-01-07, 12:45 AM		@TM - No need to update it, but there is no AoO for casting a ray spell even thought it's "ranged". The AoO only occurs if the spell isn't cast defensively.
TheMagister

04-01-07, 06:51 AM		@TM - No need to update it, but there is no AoO for casting a ray spell even thought it's "ranged". The AoO only occurs if the spell isn't cast defensively.

That would be news to me. Making a ranged attack while threatened has always been punishable by AoO, as far as I've known.

That's like saying you can make a ray attack while grappled.

TM
Zevox

04-01-07, 09:16 AM		That would be news to me. Making a ranged attack while threatened has always been punishable by AoO, as far as I've known.

That's like saying you can make a ray attack while grappled.

TM
You can. You're allowed to cast any spell without somatic components or manifest any psionic power while grappled just by making a concentration check.

Zevox
TheMagister

04-01-07, 10:02 AM		...

But making a ray attack is making a ranged touch attack.

A ranged touch attack is a ranged attack.

"Make a ranged attack" is not in the list of possible options you can take while grappled.

One couldn't throw a dagger at another enemy while grappled.

At least that's how I've always handled it. {shrug}

Seems like a logical progression.

TM
Zevox

04-01-07, 10:44 AM		"Make a ranged attack" is not in the list of possible options you can take while grappled.
But casting a spell or manifesting a power is on that list. It doesn't matter that said spell/power is ranged in nature - you can fire ranged attacks from a point-blank range, after all - it matters that it is a spell or power. So you can use ray attacks in a grapple.

Zevox
Erithmu

04-01-07, 10:48 AM		But you do have that chance of hitting yourself since it is a ranged attack?
Zevox

04-01-07, 10:52 AM		But you do have that chance of hitting yourself since it is a ranged attack?
Nope. The table that rule comes from says it only applies if the defender is grappling but the attacker is not.

Zevox
TheMagister

04-01-07, 11:13 AM		Wow.

So how about a ray attack provoking an AoO if made while in a threatened area?
Zevox

04-01-07, 11:18 AM		Wow.

So how about a ray attack provoking an AoO if made while in a threatened area?
*shrugs* As far as I'm concerned, if you cast it defensively and succeed, you don't provoke an AoO. The skill does say after that if you succeed at casting defensively "you may attempt the action normally without provoking any attacks of opportunity" (underlining mine). I guess you could argue it, but it seems to me to be totally against the intent of the concentration skill to do so.

Edit: Of course, none of this would apply to non-spell/power/SLA/PLA rays, like for instance a Lantern Archon's ray attacks.

Zevox
hogarth

04-01-07, 11:42 AM		*shrugs* As far as I'm concerned, if you cast it defensively and succeed, you don't provoke an AoO. The skill does say after that if you succeed at casting defensively "you may attempt the action normally without provoking any attacks of opportunity" (underlining mine). I guess you could argue it, but it seems to me to be totally against the intent of the concentration skill to do so.

Edit: Of course, none of this would apply to non-spell/power/SLA/PLA rays, like for instance a Lantern Archon's ray attacks.

Here's what it says in the Combat section of the SRD under "Standard Attacks":

Action Attack of Opportunity1
Attack (melee) No
Attack (unarmed) Yes
Attack (ranged) Yes

What do they mean by Attack (ranged) in this context? Here's the description that accompanies the table:
Ranged Attacks

With a ranged weapon, you can shoot or throw at any target that is within the weapon’s maximum range and in line of sight. The maximum range for a thrown weapon is five range increments. For projectile weapons, it is ten range increments. Some ranged weapons have shorter maximum ranges, as specified in their descriptions.

So it looks to me like that in the context of ranged attacks provoking an AoO, they're referring to using a projectile weapon or thrown weapon.

A lantern archon's ray attack is an (Ex) ability, which generally do not provoke attacks of opportunity.
TheMagister

04-01-07, 12:06 PM		Oho!

But that couldn't be possible!

Clearly Ranged Touch Attacks (Rays) are weapons for the purposes of feats and modifiers to weapon damage and attack rolls, why not melee touch attacks?

The rules don't specificity state that melee touch attacks are weapons, but it's implied in a couple places.

Clearly it's an armed attack, and you are armed with what? Obviously you are armed with the spell as the weapon. Not all touch attacks are armed touch attacks, but if you have a touch spell going you are armed, and it's with a weapon of some kind. That weapon is a spell effect.

The two kinds of touch (melee and range) spells should be treated the same, in my opinion. Treat them both as weapon in their own right. It allows us to remove previous "clarifications" about familiars and psicrystal delivering touch spells.

There are horrible broken implications to allowing a monk to flurry with touch attacks and ignore the weapon in the situation. For example a monk can wield a non-monk guisarme or spiked chain and flurry with trip attempts. Or if you want to say that only spells don't count as weapons for the purpose of flurry of blows, the a Psion Monk could flurry with quickened energy rays or quickened dissolving touch applied on 8 different parts of his body.

This is so utterly broken that the more I think about it the more it seems ridiculous to even consider allowing monks to flurry touch spells.

It's already been decided that spells are weapons (at least by Niqil and Sauro).

TM

I'm never gonna let that go... :D
hogarth

04-01-07, 12:09 PM		Oho!

It's already been decided that spells are weapons (at least by Niqil and Sauro).

TM

I'm never gonna let that go... :D
Read the quote:

"Clearly Ranged Touch Attacks (Rays) are weapons for the purposes of feats and modifiers to weapon damage and attack rolls, why not melee touch attacks?"

We're not talking about feats and modifiers to weapon damage and attack rolls, are we? :confused: Or are you claiming that since a fighter can fire multiple arrows in a round, then wizards should be able to fire multiple rays in a round, too?
TheMagister

04-01-07, 12:13 PM		We're talking about distracting yourself from an opponent's threatening attacks in order to make a ranged attack with a weapon.

If rays are weapons for the purposes of feats and modifiers, why not for AoOs?
hogarth

04-01-07, 12:20 PM		We're talking about distracting yourself from an opponent's threatening attacks in order to make a ranged attack with a weapon.

If rays are weapons for the purposes of feats and modifiers, why not for AoOs?

:confused: To me, that's like asking "If half-elves are elves for the purposes of entering the Arcane Archer class, why not humans?" Answer: because it doesn't say so in the rules.

If you want a clarification, you can always ask in the Courtroom thread.

By the way, has anyone else noticed that the Courtroom of Gladius has a Canadian flag hanging in the corner?
http://www.international.gc.ca/protocol/site/images/dip_forum/2004/RCMP-CH-00298.jpg
:teach: -- Police force of Gladius.
Horatius

04-01-07, 07:09 PM		Silas vs Balthazar is done. Not the longest fight in history...
templer10

04-01-07, 07:14 PM		psychosis VS lightwolf is done and here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11955462&postcount=725)

all i got to say is - first time ever i seen 2! confirmed arrow criticals in the same round- can someone tell me wtf are the odds on that?
MindWandererB

04-01-07, 07:19 PM		psychosis VS lightwolf is done and here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11955462&postcount=725)

all i got to say is - first time ever i seen 2! confirmed arrow criticals in the same round- can someone tell me wtf are the odds on that?
Not that bad, actually. With +11 to hit vs. AC 21, that's a 50% chance of confirming a critical. So 1/(20*2*20*2)= 1/1600. Given the vast number of fights we run, each one containing many rounds of archery, it's bound to happen sometimes.
Yitzi

04-01-07, 08:08 PM		And just after I lost the last battle, largely due to the dice.
hogarth

04-01-07, 08:49 PM		Silas vs Balthazar is done. Not the longest fight in history...

What?!? It's impossible that I lost. You totally misinterpreted my actions. If this is the way that fights are going to be run around here, I'm seriously thinking about quitting and never coming back!!!

:hoppingma

(Just kidding! A lost fight isn't worth having a hissy fit over. ;) Thanks for the pitlording.)
templer10

04-01-07, 09:07 PM		What?!? It's impossible that I lost. You totally misinterpreted my actions. If this is the way that fights are going to be run around here, I'm seriously thinking about quitting and never coming back!!!

:hoppingma

(Just kidding! A lost fight isn't worth having a hissy fit over. ;) Thanks for the pitlording.)

WOOT- free XP guy leveled. (just when i have 3 ECL 4 chars to...)
Zevox

04-01-07, 09:48 PM		Not that bad, actually. With +11 to hit vs. AC 21, that's a 50% chance of confirming a critical.
55%, actually. 1-9 = fails, 10-20 = confirms.

Zevox
Tellish_of_Ket

04-01-07, 11:40 PM		*EDIT
Just looked at the numbers a little closer...somethings are off.
Tellish_of_Ket

04-02-07, 12:06 AM		psychosis VS lightwolf is done and here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11955462&postcount=725)

all i got to say is - first time ever i seen 2! confirmed arrow criticals in the same round- can someone tell me wtf are the odds on that?
Ooops. Found some errors with the fight, as short as it was.

You moved me 175' in the first round. My mount only moves 120' on a double move. That's #1. #2, is that even from there, Neurosis gets cover from Lightwolf. Cover is defined as from any corner to any corner. Drawing a line from Lightwolf to any corner of Neurosis goes through cover.
http://www.hwx.it/coco/coco.php;v=1;map=arena;a=Name,M,34,33,35 ,32,lightwolf;b=Name,L,5,31,32,35,psycho sis

#3, Lightwolf is also using rapid shot, that means he gets only +9 to hit. Combine the two and the first crit fails to confirm vs Neurosis. That would mean his second shot would also be on Neurosis and the crit would indeed confirm this time around, effectively killing Neurosis.

#4, Lightwolf's bow is +3 str dmg and it's crit multiplier is (x3), that means he only gets +9 crit dmg, not +12. Keeping the existing rolls, that means Neurosis suffers 30 pts of dmg, downing it.

I would need to make a softfall check, and even if i fail, i'd still get up, 5' step and attempt to sunder bow.

Any chance you can look into my claims Templer10? thx a million.


ToK
templer10

04-02-07, 09:03 AM		I answered all these concerns exept the 1 about LOS- About the LOS- TOK is correct - there was technicly cover between the mount and Lightwolf and it seems so the first Shot didnt confirm so the second shot went on the mount also and killed it and i will continue the rest of the fight from there per tactics- have to get organized to go out now so ill maybe get started now and finished at the evening.
templer10

04-02-07, 09:51 AM		Just saw something relevent to the fight iam doing now about sundering weapons- in order to sunder you need to do- "Opposed Rolls. You and the defender make opposed attack rolls with your respective weapons. The wielder of a two-handed weapon on a sunder attempt gets a +4 bonus on this roll, and the wielder of a light weapon takes a -4 penalty. If the combatants are of different sizes, the larger combatant gets a bonus on the attack roll of +4 per difference in size category.

so it's not so easy to sunder a longbow held in hand since longbow is a 2 handed weapon (the sunder description doesnt distinguse between melee and ranged) and also it use's the DEX mod for the attack roll since the sunder description say "make opposed attack rolls with your respective weapons"
hogarth

04-02-07, 10:03 AM		Sundering bows been discussed many times. I think last time it came up, TheMagister pointed out that any item can be used as an improvised weapon.

Whichever way it is decided, someone should definitely add a ruling in the Courtroom of Gladius.

Just saw something relevent to the fight iam doing now about sundering weapons- in order to sunder you need to do- "Opposed Rolls. You and the defender make opposed attack rolls with your respective weapons. The wielder of a two-handed weapon on a sunder attempt gets a +4 bonus on this roll, and the wielder of a light weapon takes a -4 penalty. If the combatants are of different sizes, the larger combatant gets a bonus on the attack roll of +4 per difference in size category.

so it's not so easy to sunder a longbow held in hand since longbow is a 2 handed weapon (the sunder description doesnt distinguse between melee and ranged) and also it use's the DEX mod for the attack roll since the sunder description say "make opposed attack rolls with your respective weapons"
Yitzi

04-02-07, 10:58 AM		Actually, I asked in the courtroom about disarming bows, and was told that light and 2-handed do not apply to melee weapons, presumably the same goes for sunder. As for the opposed roll, I would presume it does include DEX bonus if that's what you use.
TelinArtho

04-02-07, 02:04 PM		Relanex Thines (MacBrea) vs Malik of Black Robe (Malither76) is up.
Macbrea

04-02-07, 02:05 PM		Ah well.. you win some, you loose alot!


:P
hogarth

04-02-07, 02:09 PM		One comment for Malither/Malik: a Lesser Globe of Invulnerability is immobile, so moving after casting it sort of defeats the purpose!
TelinArtho

04-02-07, 02:11 PM		One comment for Malither/Malik: a Lesser Globe of Invulnerability is immobile, so moving after casting it sort of defeats the purpose!

You know - I thought it was too and even re-read the spell for the fight when I saw him moving...

Of course, I looked back just now and see that it is the 2nd word in the description...
Macbrea

04-02-07, 02:17 PM		Yeah, the other real problem with lesser globe is it's very identifable. The air shimmers around you. So, you have to get to the spot you want to fight from cast it and then start blasting.

In this particular case he hit me with a save or die spell and Relanex failed. Not much can be said but 'Ah well'. It happens, wizards at this level kill quickly either way.
Tellish_of_Ket

04-02-07, 02:33 PM		Sundering bows been discussed many times. I think last time it came up, TheMagister pointed out that any item can be used as an improvised weapon.

Whichever way it is decided, someone should definitely add a ruling in the Courtroom of Gladius.
A sunder attempt vs bow is just straight bab+str since he's holding it in his hands it would be treated as any other improvised melee weapon. Despite taking two hands to fire, you in fact only hold onto it with one hand so no two-handed bonus. Lastly, it's a medium sized weapon as Lightwolf is medium sized.

You don't get dex as Yitzi claims because he doesn't have weapon finesse and it's not finessable. He's not firing the bow to avoid me sundering it...he's using his strength to oppose it.

Hope that helps.


ToK
templer10

04-02-07, 04:46 PM		A sunder attempt vs bow is just straight bab+str since he's holding it in his hands it would be treated as any other improvised melee weapon. Despite taking two hands to fire, you in fact only hold onto it with one hand so no two-handed bonus. Lastly, it's a medium sized weapon as Lightwolf is medium sized.

You don't get dex as Yitzi claims because he doesn't have weapon finesse and it's not finessable. He's not firing the bow to avoid me sundering it...he's using his strength to oppose it.

Hope that helps.


ToK

well i did with the wrong bonus then it appears but TOK rolled a good dice anyway- Now - to make sure- a normal Bow has hardness 5 and 5 HP like it say on the table for projectile weapon?
Zevox

04-02-07, 04:55 PM		Now - to make sure- a normal Bow has hardness 5 and 5 HP like it say on the table for projectile weapon?
Yep, of course.

Zevox
MindWandererB

04-02-07, 05:19 PM		@Telin: I'm looking at the roller, at the Kervan/Rubicanti vs. Xill fight. (And kicking myself for not guessing the xill--sorry, TM.) There are a couple of corrections that will be necessary:

1) The Xill has no way of getting multiple touch attacks to start a grapple. You don't get multiple weapons in a grapple, you just use your BAB (and Flurry, if you have it). Multiple arms don't help.

2) When Rubi fails to beat SR with Hammer, he's delivering it with an unarmed strike. So even if the Hammer does no damage, he's still making an attack. And some of them should be with Stunning Fist.
hogarth

04-02-07, 05:23 PM		1) The Xill has no way of getting multiple touch attacks to start a grapple. You don't get multiple weapons in a grapple, you just use your BAB (and Flurry, if you have it). Multiple arms don't help.


I was under the impression that you can use a natural weapon to make any sort of attack (trip, disarm, etc.) up to and including a touch attack to start a grapple. Let me check "La regle du jeu".

EDIT: The "Rules of the Game" didn't really clear things up about grab attempts, unfortunately. But just as a monk can flurry grab attempts, I always thought a character with Two-Weapon Fighting could make an off-hand grab attempts and a monster with Multi-Weapon Fighting could make multiple grab attempts.
templer10

04-02-07, 05:32 PM		The new and improved battle between the dice god lightwolf to the poor psychosis is done and here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11955462&postcount=725)

out of 12! diffrent opposed grapple checks with almost identical grapple modifiers to start grapple start pin, attempts to escape pin attempts to dmg and to ressist dmg lightwolf won 11!.

TOK- sorry but when the dice gods hate you THIS much cant do much lol.
MindWandererB

04-02-07, 05:38 PM		I was under the impression that you can use a natural weapon to make any sort of attack (trip, disarm, etc.) up to and including a touch attack to start a grapple. Let me check "La regle du jeu".

EDIT: The "Rules of the Game" didn't really clear things up about grab attempts, unfortunately. But just as a monk can flurry grab attempts, I always thought a character with Two-Weapon Fighting could make an off-hand grab attempts and a monster with Multi-Weapon Fighting could make multiple grab attempts.
That would be pretty abusive. Imagine if that xill had a BAB of 16. Then it would get 4 touch attacks to start the grapple, and if it succeeded on the fourth, it would get three more grapple checks (at -5, -10, and -15). That's kind of hard to swallow.

Besides, grappling is always done with an unarmed strike. No exceptions. It makes no sense that it could hit with a claw, then do unarmed strike damage.

Which, BTW, is another error: if the xill doesn't use Improved Grab to start the grapple, then its grapple checks do unarmed strike damage, not claw damage.
TelinArtho

04-02-07, 05:43 PM		I was just about to post something about it because I was thinking I was doing something wrong... I'm editing it - so don't trust the roller at the moment...

On #2 - he's manifesting hammer and making a touch attack as part of the manifesting. In following rounds, if and when he is able - he would be flurrying - but on the initial manifestation - there's no unarmed strike.
TelinArtho

04-02-07, 05:47 PM		That would be pretty abusive. Imagine if that xill had a BAB of 16. Then it would get 4 touch attacks to start the grapple, and if it succeeded on the fourth, it would get three more grapple checks (at -5, -10, and -15). That's kind of hard to swallow.

Besides, grappling is always done with an unarmed strike. No exceptions. It makes no sense that it could hit with a claw, then do unarmed strike damage.

Which, BTW, is another error: if the xill doesn't use Improved Grab to start the grapple, then its grapple checks do unarmed strike damage, not claw damage.

Are you supposing then that if it doesn't use improved grab for the grapple in the first place - it can't use the bite?
MindWandererB

04-02-07, 06:20 PM		Are you supposing then that if it doesn't use improved grab for the grapple in the first place - it can't use the bite?
It can't use the bite in a grapple at all, unless it's a single attack at -4, in exclusion of any other attacks it might make. Take a look at "All about grappling, part 4." In summary, a monster can:

- Make a number of grapple checks based on its BAB, dealing unarmed strike damage, or
- Make a single attack with one natural weapon at -4 (and can rake, if it has that attack).
TelinArtho

04-02-07, 06:34 PM		It can't use the bite in a grapple at all, unless it's a single attack at -4, in exclusion of any other attacks it might make. Take a look at "All about grappling, part 4." In summary, a monster can:

- Make a number of grapple checks based on its BAB, dealing unarmed strike damage, or
- Make a single attack with one natural weapon at -4 (and can rake, if it has that attack).

So to answer my question - you feel it can only use the bite as an automatic hit if it succeeds in the improved grab and holds until its next action then.

That's fine.

Anyway - I've posted the first 16 rounds with the corrections. In order to adjust for the bad grappling situation (when it was making 4 grapple checks/round, I wasn't too worried about getting a hit negated by an AoO; with only one - I figured it was better for it to be a little defensive - especially since it has some ranks in Tumble to work with).

If there's problems - let me know.
hogarth

04-02-07, 06:45 PM		That would be pretty abusive. Imagine if that xill had a BAB of 16. Then it would get 4 touch attacks to start the grapple, and if it succeeded on the fourth, it would get three more grapple checks (at -5, -10, and -15). That's kind of hard to swallow.
Multi-armed creatures get a crazy number of attacks. You wouldn't deny that a xill could get three off-hand trip attempts as well as however many dominant hand attacks as well, would you?

Besides, grappling is always done with an unarmed strike. No exceptions.

A two-armed person can make an unarmed strike with its off-hand. Why can't a four-armed creature (with Multiweapon Fighting, no less) make three off-hand unarmed strikes?
Malither76

04-02-07, 07:06 PM		No you can never do bite damage in a grapple unless you chose to attack your opponent option, with this option a creature can attack with all of its normal attacks in a grapple they all would be at a -4. Or they can chose damage your opponent which lets you make opposed grapple checks starting at your normal grapple, you can do this as many times as normal attacks you would get based on your BAB So if the person had an +11BAB and a grapple of 20 they get 3 attempts at 20/15/10. The damage done in this manner is determined by size, see rules of the game all about grappling part 2, or by your unarmed damage like a monk would have. Hope that clears things up.
TelinArtho

04-02-07, 07:13 PM		Well, before making a statement like that - bear the creature I am talking about in mind:

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a xill must hit with one or more claw attacks. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. It receives a +2 bonus on the grapple check for each claw that hits. If it wins the grapple check and maintains the hold in the next round, it automatically bites the foe at that time. The bite deals no damage but injects a paralyzing venom.
Paralysis (Ex): Those bitten by a xill must succeed on a DC 14 Fortitude save or be paralyzed for 1d4 hours. The save DC is Constitution-based.


My question was whether it could still do an automatic bite in a grapple even if that grapple wasn't started by the improved grab.

If the grapple is started with the improved grab, obviously it can do the attack - because the text says it can...
MindWandererB

04-02-07, 07:18 PM		A two-armed person can make an unarmed strike with its off-hand. Why can't a four-armed creature (with Multiweapon Fighting, no less) make three off-hand unarmed strikes?It can, but it can't attack with an off-hand weapon in a grapple. It stands to reason that it can't start a grapple with an off-hand weapon, since it would be an illegal action the moment it succeeded.
MindWandererB

04-02-07, 07:20 PM		Well, before making a statement like that - bear the creature I am talking about in mind:



My question was whether it could still do an automatic bite in a grapple even if that grapple wasn't started by the improved grab.

If the grapple is started with the improved grab, obviously it can do the attack - because the text says it can...
Hm, interesting. Yeah, I'd infer that it only gets the bite with Improved Grab, but obviously the designers just never thought of that.
TelinArtho

04-02-07, 07:26 PM		Crap!

Just realized I forgot to apply tumble for Rubicanti - despite his tactics asking for it...

Unfortunately I'm at my limit for the night - so I'll make a note of it in my current version and work on it tomorrow...
Malither76

04-02-07, 07:33 PM		Well grapple is funny because no one really has the upper hand its all done in checks, and yeah Telin my post about grapples was general rules, ofcourse there are exceptions if its in the monsters description, but with this one I think its clear the Xill has to hit with at least 2 claws and gets a bonus of +2 per claw, if the hold is maintained then it gets the auto bite, but under what is writen I would say it does not get that by any other grapple, if you did allow it then it could do this if someone else just grappled it. So it has to follow the formula how its writen to get this advantage. Thats how I see it.
sonofzeal

04-02-07, 08:02 PM		Kronos vs Air Mephit is here. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11966789&postcount=729)
Rauul

04-02-07, 09:04 PM		if anyone has time and wants to do this fight.. Nyphanalith[ECL6] (TaggIIV) vs. Petit Guepe (Horatius) & Harbinger (templer10) :[Forest] [Inter-League], i would appreciate it... i have the tactics will try to get the page set up now... i am really sick but if noone can i will attempt to get it done before deadline...

edit=> Tactics are up (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11967671&postcount=730)
Sjiggie

04-03-07, 10:51 AM		Can a druid tap a tattoo of Force Screen and schare it with his animal compagnion?

I would say no but I'm not sure
templer10

04-03-07, 11:08 AM		Can a druid tap a tattoo of Force Screen and schare it with his animal compagnion?

I would say no but I'm not sure

You can share spells cast from scrolls/powerstones with animal companion- there Isnt a whole lot of diffrense between a powerstone and a psionic tatto.
Sjiggie

04-03-07, 11:14 AM		Yes but a tattoo is equivalent of a potion and you can't share potions you drink with your animal compagnion
TelinArtho

04-03-07, 11:17 AM		You can only share spells/powers that you cast yourself and that are not spell-like/psi-like abilities.

This means that a scroll/powerstone would be fine to share, but a potion/tattoo would not. (as far as I know anyway)
hogarth

04-03-07, 11:19 AM		You can share spells cast from scrolls/powerstones with animal companion- there Isnt a whole lot of diffrense between a powerstone and a psionic tatto.

a) You can't use the Share Spells ability to share a psionic power; it isn't listed as an effect of magic/psionic transparency.
b) As Sjiggie pointed out, you can't share a tattoo with anyone since you're not manifesting the power.
Sjiggie

04-03-07, 11:31 AM		Thanks for clearing that up will continue the fight between Bulgar and Elrick now expect it to be finished soon.
TelinArtho

04-03-07, 01:24 PM		Man - I seem to be finding errors of mine at every turn in this Rubicanti/Kervan vs Monsters fight...

I am still working on it obviously, but it might be a while still. Don't trust the roller for rounds at the moment...
MindWandererB

04-03-07, 02:44 PM		You can only share spells/powers that you cast yourself and that are not spell-like/psi-like abilities.

This means that a scroll/powerstone would be fine to share, but a potion/tattoo would not. (as far as I know anyway)It's actually kind of unclear. I think it would be ludicrous to share a potion (and thus a tattoo). The RotG says this:You and your animal companion can share effects from magic items only if the effect is a spell that you can target on yourself. For example, you and your animal companion can share a barkskin spell cast from a wand, but cannot share the armor bonus from bracers of armor.I would guess that since you don't actually "target" a potion, you can't share it.... but a literal reading of this would suggest that you can. "If the effect is a spell that you can target on yourself," and you target Force Screen on yourself (range: personal). On the other hand, you target Mage Armor on yourself, too, and that's the spell effect produced by he Bracers.
Sjiggie

04-03-07, 05:33 PM		Bulgar vs Elrick is up please check for errors sorry it took so long my dad paid me a suprise visit with took me away from the fight
TelinArtho

04-03-07, 05:54 PM		Bulgar vs Elrick is up please check for errors sorry it took so long my dad paid me a suprise visit with took me away from the fight

Well, it looks to me like I wouldn't have even gotten the chance to heal - as the hippogriff's AoO for Bulgar standing and moving out of a threatened area would have hit.

Please edit it to remove those two charges of the Wand.

Other than that - fine fight by my opponent... wish I had known about that RotG article that makes things difficult for Bulgar...
Sjiggie

04-03-07, 06:37 PM		Well, it looks to me like I wouldn't have even gotten the chance to heal - as the hippogriff's AoO for Bulgar standing and moving out of a threatened area would have hit.

Please edit it to remove those two charges of the Wand.

Other than that - fine fight by my opponent... wish I had known about that RotG article that makes things difficult for Bulgar...
Editted the fight summary so it doesn't state the two charges from the wand
TheMagister

04-03-07, 06:51 PM		Re: The Rubicanti and Kervan vs. Monsters fight.

@Telin: pass summa those natural 20s to Rubicanti, hey? The darned thing only has an AC 25: and Rubi flurries at +9/+9. Come onnnnn DICE! :monk:

TM
TelinArtho

04-03-07, 07:01 PM		Re: The Rubicanti and Kervan vs. Monsters fight.

@Telin: pass summa those natural 20s to Rubicanti, hey? The darned thing only has an AC 25: and Rubi flurries at +9/+9. Come onnnnn DICE! :monk:

TM

Well, don't worry - I think a few of the hits that Rubi should've taken got absorbed somehow in all of my edits of the 'flippin' fight...

Anyway - I've updated to the start of round 44 and will continue tomorrow morning. At this point - I wouldn't be too hopeful that it'll be done by the deadline tomorrow - you never know though...
templer10

04-03-07, 07:03 PM		if anyone has time and wants to do this fight.. Nyphanalith[ECL6] (TaggIIV) vs. Petit Guepe (Horatius) & Harbinger (templer10) :[Forest] [Inter-League], i would appreciate it... i have the tactics will try to get the page set up now... i am really sick but if noone can i will attempt to get it done before deadline...

edit=> Tactics are up (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11967671&postcount=730)

any chance someone will pickup this fight- otherwise 3 people will have to eat a delay...
TelinArtho

04-04-07, 11:56 AM		Well, don't worry - I think a few of the hits that Rubi should've taken got absorbed somehow in all of my edits of the 'flippin' fight...

Anyway - I've updated to the start of round 44 and will continue tomorrow morning. At this point - I wouldn't be too hopeful that it'll be done by the deadline tomorrow - you never know though...

Well - it looks like my day is going to be very busy today, so it isn't likely I'm going to be able to finish that fight today - sorry guys.

I'll try to fit it in during lunch - but I might not be eating lunch today...
TelinArtho

04-04-07, 12:28 PM		@Telin - on round 26 when Kervan gets attacked by the Xill, why did Kervan only move 40' when that would put him within easy reach of the Xill? Rubi needed no immediate healing that turn, and Kervan was really a 5th wheel at that stage of the fight. Magic missile has a long range; Kervan really should've double moved.

Since we're holding this over for another week, we might as well make sure it's done right, right?

Memo to me: make a note in future tactics that when flurries aren't hitting, switch to hit and tumble away tactics. :)

TM

Just so this doesn't get lost in the IMT thread.

Kervan didn't have expeditious retreat up anymore, so its a question of single moving and using the wand or double moving. Up to that point, the Xill had not paid any attention to Kervan (mostly because Kervan's wand had little chance of doing any damage), so it seemed reasonable to me to keep up with the same act. Had the xill taken the less restricted route, Kervan couldn't have been attacked at all.
TheMagister

04-04-07, 07:23 PM		I'm actually really glad you're not able to work on it today because I wanted to ask a favor of you.

Rubi's currently got 4 free points of AC that he's not using.

Could you do like you did for the Xill and allow Rubi to utilize his Reckless Offense feat for the extra +2 to hit?

You allowed the Xill to fight defensively because he needs 20s for Rubi; couldn't you allow Rubi to fight more offensively because doing so wouldn't change the number the Xill needs to roll?

It would be even better if you could go back in the fight to when the Xill started the defensive posture. A few of those misses of Rubi's were pretty close.

Might speed things up for you...

TM
TelinArtho

04-04-07, 09:05 PM		Well - except that if you start showing recklessness - he starts fighting normally - needing much less to hit.

Plus - in a few rounds - your shield of faith goes away and things become much more interesting...
Vathelokai

04-04-07, 09:28 PM		Nyphanalith[ECL6] (TaggIIV) vs. Petit Guepe (Horatius) & Harbinger (templer10) : Vathelokai [Forest] [Inter-League] [Week 2]

Week 2, eh? Could someone link me to the setup (if there is one), and such; also point out any errors that there are already. I didn't read any of last weeks fight of the week thread.
NiQil

04-04-07, 09:40 PM		Nyphanalith[ECL6] (TaggIIV) vs. Petit Guepe (Horatius) & Harbinger (templer10) : Vathelokai [Forest] [Inter-League] [Week 2]

Week 2, eh? Could someone link me to the setup (if there is one), and such; also point out any errors that there are already. I didn't read any of last weeks fight of the week thread.
The fight was not run...the tactics are posted here
TheMagister

04-04-07, 10:22 PM		Well - except that if you start showing recklessness - he starts fighting normally - needing much less to hit.

If he wants to start fighting normally, that's his business.

But I don't think you're realizing what I'm saying:

Rubi's current AC is 31 (17+4+4+3+3).
Xill's best to-hit is +7 (normal +5 and +2 bull's)

Xill needed a 20 to hit AC 31 anyway, and so started fighting defensively.

Xill needs a 20 to hit AC 31-4 (27) anyways, and so Rubi might as well gain the +2 to hit from Reckless Offense.

See what I mean?


Plus - in a few rounds - your shield of faith goes away and things become much more interesting...

...Which is why I requested you back it up to the "Pitlord notice: Xill will begin fighting defensively" remark, since that's much earlier in the fight than round 44 where we are now. It might speed things up. Hopefully, the Xill won't see round 63 when the SoF expires.

TM
TelinArtho

04-05-07, 11:28 AM		If he wants to start fighting normally, that's his business.

But I don't think you're realizing what I'm saying:

Rubi's current AC is 31 (17+4+4+3+3).
Xill's best to-hit is +7 (normal +5 and +2 bull's)

Xill needed a 20 to hit AC 31 anyway, and so started fighting defensively.

Xill needs a 20 to hit AC 31-4 (27) anyways, and so Rubi might as well gain the +2 to hit from Reckless Offense.

See what I mean?



...Which is why I requested you back it up to the "Pitlord notice: Xill will begin fighting defensively" remark, since that's much earlier in the fight than round 44 where we are now. It might speed things up. Hopefully, the Xill won't see round 63 when the SoF expires.

TM

To be correct, the Xill's best to hit was actually +11 (+9 with longsword as a single attack +2 bull's strength). For most of the battle though - I would agree that the Xill's best attack is at +7.

I might as well go back and edit it. I'm tired of the fight as is - and if it does speed things up - I guess I can't argue it at this point...

Unfortunately, I seem to be coming down with a cold from my lack of sleep with the new baby... wish I still had some sick time to work with (used all of it for paternity leave...)

Hmm - maybe I'm missing something - but I don't think it changes anything.

The Xill starts fighting defensively in round 10. I don't see any of your misses that would've been hits from that round until round 23 (when force screen ends).
TheMagister

04-05-07, 06:33 PM		I couldn't read the roller. Since you're familiar with the fight, I thought I'd let you judge.

Thanks for looking into it.

TM