Post/Author/DateTime	Post
waywreth 05-02-07, 11:02 AM	Fights of the Week: May 2nd Please don't edit the sheet after the deadline or you will lose the match. Rules of Gladius All that you need to know is written in the Rules of Gladius. It could be useful also to give a look to the Court Decisions Part 1 and Part 2. Please do not make fake accounts or insult the Elders. Pairings GM-in-Training MindwandererB will pair the active Characters of Gladius after the deadline. Make sure that your character is not in prison. Pitlording You should use the CoCo Dice Roller (http://www.hwx.it/wizards.com) for the fight. If you need it, there is a nice template ready to use that will help. You could find the Battle Map Tag Generator (http://www.hwx.it/coco) for dynamic Maps very useful. You must post a link to your fight in this thread when it is complete. If you need a quick and dirty tool to calculate distances between two points (in 2-D or 3-D), this tool (http://wormhole.ath.cx/coco/coco_dist.php) should suffice. Another useful link is the Quick Access tables for XP and Gold. If a fight needs to be rerun, the Pitlord has to inform the Pitlords account. He cannot react to requests from Players because the other player and the pitlord might disagree. He has no time to read the fight and the discussion. Please keep that in mind. PMs from players with rerun requests won't have an impact. Recent News and Developments The Iron Man tournament continues this week - good luck to all involved Comments & Concerns Post any comments or concerns for this weeks fights in this thread. Be kind and courteous to your fellow posters, and don't feed the pitlords. Please remember that they do hard work and consume a lot of time to let you play. Above all, have FUN! If you have questions or comments on any of the changes, please make your posts be heard in the Council of Gladius!
hogarth 05-02-07, 03:54 PM	MWB/GM-pro-tem: Balthazar Picsou is supposed to be crafting this week (for thr first of two weeks), not fighting in the arena.
Pitlords 05-02-07, 03:59 PM	Pairings done. Credits: +7: Erithmu +4: McJarvis +3: Zevox +2: Malither76, Maraxus, MindWandererB, Rauul, SauroGrenom, Sjiggie, templer10 +1: Abyssal Stalker, Macbrea, TheMagister, Vathelokai, Yitzi +0: TelinArtho Edit: or not. Can everyone type FULL in caps when doing a full activity, so I don't miss it in the future? Thanks. Edit 2: Fixed.
Maraxus 05-02-07, 04:00 PM	Arg, damn it, I made Balrog ready in two steps and forgot to fix his headline on the last edit. Is there a chance to still get him in?
Yitzi 05-02-07, 04:02 PM	Why is the fight I'm pitlording (Tyden Rayn vs the shadow) marked as week 2?
Hirumajoe 05-02-07, 04:02 PM	@Telin: If you get my monster info up quick, I'll try to get you tactics within the hour. So you can run whenever you want this week. :)
MindWandererB 05-02-07, 04:03 PM	Arg, damn it, I made Balrog ready in two steps and forgot to fix his headline on the last edit. Is there a chance to still get him in?Sure, we'll swap him in for the monster. Why is the fight I'm pitlording (Tyden Rayn vs the shadow) marked as week 2?It wasn't run last week.
templer10 05-02-07, 04:04 PM	i got to pitlord the this "gem" - Le Petit Guepe (Horatius) vs. Bulgar Stronghammer (TelinArtho) vs. Mithos Durrol (Zevox) vs. Erithmu Darkmane (Erithmu) : templer10 [Sewer] [All-vs-All] if fighters can get me tactics as soon as possible i would get it started - it wil take a while i imagine - 3 clerics and a paladin/sorcerer - might i suggest you all come to some sort of agreement about using CLW wands if you want this fight to end NOT in round 400+ but i will go by waht you decide. also - in such a large and compilcated fight - iam going to stick pretty much exacly to what you write in tactics to cut down on the inevitable should i or shouldnt i have improvisied for someone.
TelinArtho 05-02-07, 04:14 PM	@Telin: If you get my monster info up quick, I'll try to get you tactics within the hour. So you can run whenever you want this week. :) Monster Info is posted - 4 cloakers... I was tempted to try to make the original roll a non-autovictory for you - but it would've certainly required giving the monsters intelligence they did not have...
Hirumajoe 05-02-07, 04:17 PM	Out of curiosity, does Valen's Lucid Buffer (+4 vs Mind Affecting abilities) apply to all the cloaker sonic effects, including the fort saves? That might make a slight difference in tactics. Thanks. (Since it then makes all saves anything but a 1 rolls...) Edit: I also assume I don't get 2 buff rounds from Scouting since there's 4 monsters. (Ambush doesn't apply since their hearing is better than my Move Silently).
hogarth 05-02-07, 04:17 PM	Monster Info is posted - 4 cloakers... Ah...nothing beats a bombardment of save-or-die attacks! :weep: By the way, that reminds me that Treetall Oakleg still has a couple of silver dragons to face. :weep:
Hirumajoe 05-02-07, 04:22 PM	Ah...nothing beats a bombardment of save-or-die attacks! :weep: By the way, that reminds me that Treetall Oakleg still has a couple of silver dragons to face. :weep: Yes, but with Valen's abilities and saves, its 1 or nothing. :)
hogarth 05-02-07, 04:25 PM	Yes, but with Valen's abilities and saves, its 1 or nothing. :) What are the odds of rolling a 1? It must be one in a million! :P
Hirumajoe 05-02-07, 04:31 PM	What are the odds of rolling a 1? It must be one in a million! :P Ok, ok, fair enough. He did roll 5 1's in 38 rolls last week. And 4 20's too... So I should know better. But really, its only what, 16 possible saves, plus re-attempts on the hold monster one? Although I really need to stay out of 60' range, because -8 to hit and damage... Bad...
hogarth 05-02-07, 04:36 PM	But really, its only what, 16 possible saves, plus re-attempts on the hold monster one? Although I really need to stay out of 60' range, because -8 to hit and damage... Bad... I was only thinking of the hold monster saves, since they can repeat it every round ad infinitum. By the way, can cloakers fly in the sewers?
Hirumajoe 05-02-07, 04:40 PM	I was only thinking of the hold monster saves, since they can repeat it every round ad infinitum. By the way, can cloakers fly in the sewers? Uhh... They're large creatures with a wingspan... So I guess no. *Blink, blink* Who needs entangling ectoplasm...
TelinArtho 05-02-07, 04:48 PM	The cloaker's moan is listed as a sonic, mind-affecting effect - so yes your lucid buffer would apply to it.
Zevox 05-02-07, 04:52 PM	@ Telin - So you're the lucky one to get the week-4 FFA. The issues with it can be found at the end of the April 11th FotW thread - the main ones being TM's issue with Rubicanti's Hammer dorje and some mechanical/mathematical issues from me. @ Templer10 - I'll try to get you tactics for Mithos today then. No promises on the CLW wand, but I will try not to let things get into an archery match with my tactics (thats not Mithos' preferred situation anyway). Zevox
TelinArtho 05-02-07, 04:54 PM	And with that - Bulgar's tactics have been sent. So - can a guild buy a CAP as a reaction to random events?
Hirumajoe 05-02-07, 05:04 PM	@Telin: Tactics for Valen Sky sent. I don't envy you the number of d20s that are going to be rolled in this fight... Stupid saving throw powers. Thanks for running it. :)
MindWandererB 05-02-07, 05:21 PM	And with that - Bulgar's tactics have been sent. So - can a guild buy a CAP as a reaction to random events? Nope. That's gotta be done in advance.
TelinArtho 05-02-07, 05:34 PM	Figures... well live and let learn I suppose...
TelinArtho 05-02-07, 05:36 PM	Okay - all of my tactics have been sent. I have received Valen's tactics. I will probably start with the FFA holdover - since that seems like it has been a mess. If someone would like to go through the effort and catalog the issues with links - I would be very appreciative, but otherwise, I'll work on it when I can (tomorrow).
TelinArtho 05-02-07, 05:46 PM	Okay - so it looks to me like there are two other options to defend against the PMG - mostly because I don't see anything about it. 1. Regiments? I'm pretty sure this isn't allowed, but I don't really see anything in the rules that would forbid it. 2. Guardian? From what I can tell, it doesn't require a CAP to defend with a guardian. I'm just not sure though. However, determining the EL of the fight is complicated then...
MitzaVolchenko 05-02-07, 05:49 PM	Is there a compelling reason which I have missed for a week four on Zwei's FFA? After looking it over and checking its last edit date and checking its pitlord's last activity date, I reached the conclusion that it was done and edited my sheet. If we are going to continue to beat that fight up, I suppose I can go back and nitpick a line by line audit of the fight, but at least one participant has been allowed to edit and move on.
MindWandererB 05-02-07, 05:52 PM	Okay - so it looks to me like there are two other options to defend against the PMG - mostly because I don't see anything about it. 1. Regiments? I'm pretty sure this isn't allowed, but I don't really see anything in the rules that would forbid it. 2. Guardian? From what I can tell, it doesn't require a CAP to defend with a guardian. I'm just not sure though. However, determining the EL of the fight is complicated then... Regiments are of no use in defending against a single operator. This is true when one guild attacks another, so it's the same with a PMG. As for a guardian... it's crossed my mind. A bit odd to run an NPC vs. NPC fight, though. Technically, it's true that it should probably go that way.
Zevox 05-02-07, 05:55 PM	Is there a compelling reason which I have missed for a week four on Zwei's FFA? After looking it over and checking its last edit date and checking its pitlord's last activity date, I reached the conclusion that it was done and edited my sheet. If we are going to continue to beat that fight up, I suppose I can go back and nitpick a line by line audit of the fight, but at least one participant has been allowed to edit and move on. Definitely, yes. Rubicanti's request to use his Dorje of Hammer vs El Rapido was not followed through on, and would prevent the crit El Rapido gave him from occuring. Then during the final engagement between Arden and Zwei there were many, many mechanical errors in Zwei's favor (treating Inertial Armor as though it boosted touch AC, giving Zwei hits she never made at the end) which would easily result in a change there. That one is still very much so up in the air for everyone except El Rapido (who was allowed to continue because his position in the fight could only worsen with the edits, and hes in last already). Zevox
TelinArtho 05-02-07, 05:59 PM	Regiments are of no use in defending against a single operator. This is true when one guild attacks another, so it's the same with a PMG. As for a guardian... it's crossed my mind. A bit odd to run an NPC vs. NPC fight, though. Technically, it's true that it should probably go that way. So I am going to take the ball and run with this then. Do I need to post a reaction for this or will the guardian automatically pick it up? I would assume that since the PMG has an EL - that the opposing force would be the same EL (that makes the most sense to me anyway). Also, I just noticed an error in Gawane with regard to the Inquisition there. Cat apparently hired 40 staff for that location when it only requires 30. Just to be sure - there's no benefit nor ability to assign extra staff to a structure is there? Assuming there isn't - can I just move them into my unassigned pool or should it wait until the next week's actions?
Rauul 05-02-07, 06:07 PM	@Yitzi forwarded the tactics for shadow to you.. good luck
MitzaVolchenko 05-02-07, 06:10 PM	Definitely, yes. Rubicanti's request to use his Dorje of Hammer vs El Rapido was not followed through on, and would prevent the crit El Rapido gave him from occuring. Then during the final engagement between Arden and Zwei there were many, many mechanical errors in Zwei's favor (treating Inertial Armor as though it boosted touch AC, giving Zwei hits she never made at the end) which would easily result in a change there. That one is still very much so up in the air for everyone except El Rapido (who was allowed to continue because his position in the fight could only worsen with the edits, and hes in last already). Zevox The Armor bonus should be anon-issue...I haven't line by lined it or checked rolls, but mobility applies when she stands and is the same bonus as Inertial (thoughonly applies when avoiding AoO's caused by movement). If we want to get all kinds of technical Zwei's tactics weren't followed either as she shouldn't have fired except to avoid delay and thus avoids being initially spotted...unless that was already edited which it might have been. I suppose my point is that we are in week freaking 4 on the fight and I have already done my level up edit. The fight was showing edit after the last complaint on it, so I assumed that it had received all of the editing it need. *sighs* Does this mean I need to review the fight with a fine toothed comb? And if one of the errors involves a character that has already moved on, what happens there? Any edit that is done correctly may change that character's ending resources whichin turn affects their assets going forward.
MindWandererB 05-02-07, 06:14 PM	The Armor bonus should be anon-issue...I haven't line by lined it or checked rolls, but mobility applies when she stands and is the same bonus as Inertial (thoughonly applies when avoiding AoO's caused by movement). If we want to get all kinds of technical Zwei's tactics weren't followed either as she shouldn't have fired except to avoid delay and thus avoids being initially spotted...unless that was already edited which it might have been. I suppose my point is that we are in week freaking 4 on the fight and I have already done my level up edit. The fight was showing edit after the last complaint on it, so I assumed that it had received all of the editing it need. *sighs* Does this mean I need to review the fight with a fine toothed comb? And if one of the errors involves a character that has already moved on, what happens there? Any edit that is done correctly may change that character's ending resources whichin turn affects their assets going forward. You are, of course, free to go over the battle yourself. The only problem we'd have is if El Rapido somehow outlived one of the other combatants, which is improbable.
Zevox 05-02-07, 06:19 PM	The Armor bonus should be anon-issue...I haven't line by lined it or checked rolls, but mobility applies when she stands and is the same bonus as Inertial (thoughonly applies when avoiding AoO's caused by movement). If we want to get all kinds of technical Zwei's tactics weren't followed either as she shouldn't have fired except to avoid delay and thus avoids being initially spotted...unless that was already edited which it might have been. I suppose my point is that we are in week freaking 4 on the fight and I have already done my level up edit. The fight was showing edit after the last complaint on it, so I assumed that it had received all of the editing it need. *sighs* Does this mean I need to review the fight with a fine toothed comb? And if one of the errors involves a character that has already moved on, what happens there? Any edit that is done correctly may change that character's ending resources whichin turn affects their assets going forward. The armor bonus is certainly an issue, as there were a number of Arden's touch attacks to try and trip that missed because of that. Those weren't occurring at a time when Mobility would happen, so he should have the chance to trip her at those instances and then strike a killing blow on the follow-up (and in any event, no, Mobility doesn't come into play when you stand up, since you're not moving out of a threatened area then). Plus as I said, Rubicanti may still be in the game due to not taking that crit, and some of Zwei's ending hits never should've happened. I'm guessing you must have seen the fight before I did, because I know as soon as I saw it I noticed and posted the mechanical errors, and shortly thereafter TM mentioned the Hammer Dorje issue. I can only figure you wound up seeing it in the window of time between when the edit occurred and when we saw it. Basically, both me and TM feel that too much work has gone into this already to let it simply slide away with so many clear errors in it, which is why we're still pushing for it to be corrected. As for Zwei's sniping, it may not matter if shes spotted or not, since if Arden still outlasts Rubicanti he has orders to use his Touchsight powerstone to locate Zwei. And TM, templer10, and I have already gone over the rounds leading up to El Rapido's demise in detail, so I'm pretty sure you won't find anything in there to change his outcome. Zevox
Sjiggie 05-02-07, 06:38 PM	@ Abyssal Tactics for Zerth (vs Lord Lorian) sent. Tactics for Gradak will be sent tommorow -Sjiggie
MindWandererB 05-02-07, 06:40 PM	@Zevox and McJarvis: Tactics for Kervan and Maya have been sent.
MitzaVolchenko 05-02-07, 06:40 PM	The armor bonus is certainly an issue, as there were a number of Arden's touch attacks to try and trip that missed because of that. Those weren't occurring at a time when Mobility would happen, so he should have the chance to trip her at those instances and then strike a killing blow on the follow-up (and in any event, no, Mobility doesn't come into play when you stand up, since you're not moving out of a threatened area then). Plus as I said, Rubicanti may still be in the game due to not taking that crit, and some of Zwei's ending hits never should've happened. I'm guessing you must have seen the fight before I did, because I know as soon as I saw it I noticed and posted the mechanical errors, and shortly thereafter TM mentioned the Hammer Dorje issue. I can only figure you wound up seeing it in the window of time between when the edit occurred and when we saw it. Basically, both me and TM feel that too much work has gone into this already to let it simply slide away with so many clear errors in it, which is why we're still pushing for it to be corrected. As for Zwei's sniping, it may not matter if shes spotted or not, since if Arden still outlasts Rubicanti he has orders to use his Touchsight powerstone to locate Zwei. And TM, templer10, and I have already gone over the rounds leading up to El Rapido's demise in detail, so I'm pretty sure you won't find anything in there to change his outcome. Zevox I'll review later...I'm too ticked off at having a 4th week when one character is frozen and one waiting on a questlord. The spot does matter as does movement that prevents closing and sundering...ie using the obstacles that foil Touchsight. Either way, as I said, I have never seen a fight go to week four after the person that ran it edited and has been active since that last edit and the last time it got put into pairings. I have been watching the original week's thread and SoZ's activity and the fight itself to see if it was safe to edit...so this morning I edited...didn't finsih editing becuase I needed to check some source material that I didn't have handy. There at least should have been a PM on the matter since the thread to which that fight belongs is now page two, but again, I'll review it when I am not cranky and PMmy total list of concerns to Telin.
Yitzi 05-02-07, 06:41 PM	Sent tactics for Dunerunner, and I'm ready to begin the mission with Lightwolf.
Maraxus 05-02-07, 06:51 PM	Send Tactics for a confident despite out-of-place Durin and for a totally desperated Balrog. Relanex Thines definitly picked the right opponent here.
Zevox 05-02-07, 06:51 PM	I'll review later...I'm too ticked off at having a 4th week when one character is frozen and one waiting on a questlord. The spot does matter as does movement that prevents closing and sundering...ie using the obstacles that foil Touchsight. Either way, as I said, I have never seen a fight go to week four after the person that ran it edited and has been active since that last edit and the last time it got put into pairings. I have been watching the original week's thread and SoZ's activity and the fight itself to see if it was safe to edit...so this morning I edited...didn't finsih editing becuase I needed to check some source material that I didn't have handy. There at least should have been a PM on the matter since the thread to which that fight belongs is now page two, but again, I'll review it when I am not cranky and PMmy total list of concerns to Telin. You edited this morning? But SoZ posted just a day or two ago in the tavern that he wouldn't have time to finish up the fight. And the April 11 FotW thread is definitely where me and TM posted these concerns originally... Anyway, just to note, Zwei won't be able to use obstacles to foil Touchsight. If she can see Arden to shoot him, he has LoE for Touchsight to work, and the map isn't big enough for her to hope to maintain more than 60' distance with every shot (without hitting the delay penalty, anyway). Zevox
Zevox 05-02-07, 06:54 PM	Tactics received for Kervan vs Izumi from both parties. Wow, thats going to be a straightforward one... all of four lines of tactics from Macbrea, about twice that plus four contingencies from MWB. Should be run Friday. Zevox
Zevox 05-02-07, 07:05 PM	@ Templer10 - Tactics for Mithos in the big caster FFA have been PMed. A Cleric, a Cloistered Cleric, a Fighter/Cleric, and a Blackguard*/Sorcerer - boy am I the odd one out there. Well, at least my saves should ward off those Blindness and Hold spells nicely. Now I just have to hope he gets the same luck in this FFA that his sister did a few weeks ago in hers. *I prefer to use Blackguard for RP reasons with Mithos. I just don't like ascribing the name of Paladin to anything but a true LG holy warrior, and Blackguard has more flavor to it than "Paladin of Tyranny" IMO. Zevox
Rauul 05-02-07, 07:13 PM	El Rapido your Monster fight is here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12281347&postcount=829) No Applicable knowledges.. so good luck and i await your Tactics What you Know.. is an Elderly lady (I named her Milly) is waiting in the temple...
Sjiggie 05-02-07, 07:14 PM	@ Vathelokai MQ Telling Blow (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=12281379#post12281379) is up. I just need some time to prepare your opponent and we're ready to go.
TheMagister 05-02-07, 07:20 PM	I'll review later...I'm too ticked off at having a 4th week when one character is frozen and one waiting on a questlord. The spot does matter as does movement that prevents closing and sundering...ie using the obstacles that foil Touchsight. Either way, as I said, I have never seen a fight go to week four after the person that ran it edited and has been active since that last edit and the last time it got put into pairings. I have been watching the original week's thread and SoZ's activity and the fight itself to see if it was safe to edit...so this morning I edited...didn't finsih editing becuase I needed to check some source material that I didn't have handy. There at least should have been a PM on the matter since the thread to which that fight belongs is now page two, but again, I'll review it when I am not cranky and PMmy total list of concerns to Telin. Do us all a favor and copy those concerns to a public forum, please? On another note: {throws up his hands in frustration} TELIN got it?! (*Y$)@##!! Now I'm gonna lose! Anytime Telin grabs my fights my luck goes widdershins and the dice kill me. @Telin - please, if you have any questions about Rubicanti's offensive or defensive routines, ASK. You've run him two or three times, and it seems like each time we fail to communicate with each other and I end up frustrated. :) TM
Zevox 05-02-07, 07:23 PM	@ Telin - Heres a compilation of the posts pertaining to the remaining issues with that FFA. Pretty straightforward, only about four posts that matter, only one of which is lengthy (and that due to quotes). If you'd like, I can PM it to you so it doesn't get lost in the posts in this thread. Um, I hate to tell you, but Zwei's last two hits in there shouldn't have happened. She flurries at +4/+4 (her usual +5 -1 for being a 5th level monk), and Arden's AC with force screen is 25. Without a 20, she misses, and in the last two rounds she gets no 20s. Plus Arden still has one vigor in him - he had 7pp, used 3 of it in his initial buffing, 2 on Crystal Shard, and 1 renewing the vigor the first time. That leaves 1 he can give himself another 15 hp with. Hate to put you through it, but could you correct it for that? It could quite easily change the outcome of the match. Edit: oh, heres something that'll make it easier on you. A number of Arden's swings should've hit and given him the chance to trip. Inertial Armor doesn't add to Zwei's touch AC, so he only needed to hit an AC 18 to do that, and theres a number of times he did that you marked it as a miss. That ought to shorten the fight nicely for you. Zevox :tantrum: Round 13 Arden advances to nearly directly undernead Rubi and Rapid, and unloads his Crystal Shards (1d20+7=12, miss; 1d100=83, no enervation) Zwei snipes at Arden (1d20+7=8, miss; opposed 8 vs 9, seen!) Rubi quickdraws his Dorje of Hammer, and manifests from it. Rapid 5-foot-steps back, tries to regain focus (1d20+11=24, success), and uses the rest of his action on Total Defensive. Arden: hp 54/39, ac 27, +8(1d8+3/x3) [Force Screen 21][Defensive Precog round 62][Vigor 64][Cold Adaptation 303] Zwei: hp 31/31, ac 22, +9(1d8+3+1d6/x3) [Inertial Armor 601] Rubi: hp 42/42, ac 22, +9(1d8+2/x3) [Wall Walker round 31][Offensive Precog round 45][Thicken Skin 64][Inertial Armor round 602][Offensive Presc round 26] Rapid: hp 29/47, ac 24, +12(2d6+7/19-20) [Shield of Faith round 14][Chain of Personal Superiority round 21][Wall Walker round 39][Skate round 23][Force Screen 122][Fire Adaptation 301] map (this is using Rubi's first roll in combat, since it's still his first roll in combat) Round 14 Arden curses his bad roll, moves back to his previous position, and draws his bow. Zwei doesn't know she's been spotted, so she waits patiently for someone to become visable again. (round 1) Rubi 5-foot-steps, and touches (hit; 4d8=21) Rapid 5-foot-steps again, then draws and uses his powerstone of Vigor Arden: hp 54/39, ac 27, +8(1d8+3/x3) [Force Screen 21][Defensive Precog round 62][Vigor 64][Cold Adaptation 303] Zwei: hp 31/31, ac 22, +9(1d8+3+1d6/x3) [Inertial Armor 601] Rubi: hp 42/42, ac 22, +9(1d8+2/x3) [Wall Walker round 31][Offensive Precog round 45][Thicken Skin 64][Inertial Armor round 602][Offensive Presc round 26] Rapid: hp 18/47, ac 24, +12(2d6+7/19-20) [Shield of Faith round 14][Chain of Personal Superiority round 21][Vigor 34][Wall Walker round 39][Skate round 23][Force Screen 122][Fire Adaptation 301] map (This is using Rubi's origional rolls for this round, for simplicity's sake) Round 15 Arden uses the last of his euphoria to launch an arrow at Rapid (1d20+9=19, miss) Zwei waits patiently for someone to become visable again (round 2) Rubi 5-foot-steps, and flurries (one hit, no crit; 1d6+2=7) Rapid is NOT HAVING A GOOD DAY, 5-foot-steps again, then draws and uses his other powerstone of Vigor Arden: hp 54/39, ac 27, +8(1d8+3/x3) [Force Screen 21][Defensive Precog round 62][Vigor 64][Cold Adaptation 303] Zwei: hp 31/31, ac 22, +9(1d8+3+1d6/x3) [Inertial Armor 601] Rubi: hp 42/42, ac 22, +9(1d8+2/x3) [Wall Walker round 31][Offensive Precog round 45][Thicken Skin 64][Inertial Armor round 602][Offensive Presc round 26] Rapid: hp 21/47, ac 22, +13(2d6+9/19-20) [Chain of Personal Superiority round 21][Vigor 35][Wall Walker round 39][Skate round 23][Force Screen 122][Fire Adaptation 301] map Round 16 Arden desperately launches another arrow at Rapid (1d20+8=20, miss) Zwei waits patiently for someone to become visable again (round 3) Rubi nearly collapses from sheer trauma, but manages to 5-foot-step and flurry (two hits, no crit; 1d6+2=8; 1d6+2=3) Rapid swings his sword as hard as he can (1d20+13=33, threat; 1d20+13=31, confirm; 4d6+18=37) and steps back to refocus again (1d20+11=15, fail) Arden: hp 54/39, ac 27, +8(1d8+3/x3) [Force Screen 21][Defensive Precog round 62][Vigor 64][Cold Adaptation 303] Zwei: hp 31/31, ac 22, +9(1d8+3+1d6/x3) [Inertial Armor 601] Rubi: hp 7/42, ac 22, +9(1d8+2/x3) [Wall Walker round 31][Offensive Precog round 45][Thicken Skin 64][Inertial Armor round 602][Offensive Presc round 26] Rapid: hp 10/47, ac 22, +13(2d6+9/19-20) [Chain of Personal Superiority round 21][Vigor 34][Wall Walker round 39][Skate round 23][Force Screen 122][Fire Adaptation 301] map Round 17 Arden desperately launches another arrow at Rapid (1d20+8=28, threat; 1d20+8=23, confirm; 3d8+9=26) Zwei waits patiently for someone to become visable again (round 3) Rubi, in gratitude to Arden for saving his life, moves to a better position, quickdraws his bow, and fires (1d20+8=11, miss) Rapid falls the last 25 feet to the ground and lands with a sickening thud Arden: hp 54/39, ac 27, +8(1d8+3/x3) [Force Screen 21][Defensive Precog round 62][Vigor 64][Cold Adaptation 303] Zwei: hp 31/31, ac 22, +9(1d8+3+1d6/x3) [Inertial Armor 601] Rubi: hp 7/42, ac 22, +9(1d8+2/x3) [Wall Walker round 31][Offensive Precog round 45][Thicken Skin 64][Inertial Armor round 602][Offensive Presc round 26] Rapid: hp -16/47, ac 22, +13(2d6+9/19-20) [Chain of Personal Superiority round 21][Vigor 34][Wall Walker round 39][Skate round 23][Force Screen 122][Fire Adaptation 301] I'm tellin' you though, I'm having second thoughts about letting the Hammer melee tactic go by un-included. I'm thinking more and more that Rubi would've (though sheer dice luck) forced El Rapido back into his healing contingencies over and over. 4d8 damage is nothing to dismiss lightly. Really, it wouldn't be hard to edit in. Please look at rounds 13 thru 16 again! In the spirit of fairness, if nothing else... The attack rolls can be kept in order. Round 13: quickdraw dorje, manifest Hammer (no AoO), touch hits, deals 1d8+2 damage (damage needs to be rerolled with a d8 instead of a d6). Round 14: flurry (2 hits) for total 8+6+2d8 damage (need to roll the 2d8). Round 15: flurry (1 hit) for total 7+1d8 damage (Hammer Expires) (need to roll the 1d8). Round 16: manifest Hammer, touch hits, 1d8+2 damage (damage needs to be rerolled with a d8 instead of a d6). Man, I'm sorry! I tried to spell this out for you as completely and as simply as I could, and I still managed to fail to convey what the sequence of actions should've been. However, looking at the above paragraph, I'm not sure what else I could've typed to get my message across. Still, you've rolled 4d8 (even if it was incorrectly applied), so I can look up the rolls in the roller and insert the damage additions over the next 2 rounds or so. (The 4d8 is recorded in "Round 99:" in the roller). Round 13: A manifester can manifest a touch power and touch an opponent in the same round. Rubi should've manifested Hammer from his dorje and touched El Rapido for 1d8+2 damage (came out to 1d8=4[+2] = 6 total damage). El Rapido goes from 29 to 23. He has no Vigor up at this time. Round 14: Rubi flurries and hits twice. You've already rolled damage for the physical punches, and just need to add the 2d8 for Hammer [damage came to (4+2+2) and (6+2+8), totaled: 24. El Rapido is knocked out (down to -1/47 hp). He hasn't had a chance to manifest Vigor, yet. El Rapido doesn't crit Rubi until Round 16 (which never actually happens). This fight is not correct. Regretfully, I don't want to let it go out of a desire to just "get on with Rubicanti's life (and I'll bet that you are just a tad more frustrated than I). Please, Rubicanti is NOT out of this fight...not by a long shot. Heck, he's completely undamaged! TM In regards to the Hammer sequence - I realise now that I forgot to change the 5-foot-steps when I added in Hammer. I had you 5-foot-step there to avoid the AoO, and that leaves you in a position of waiting for the next turn. Your tactics didn't state whether to step or cast defensively, and in the context of having someone else attacking Rapido as well, it made sense to me to try and stretch things out. Your success rate for Casting Defensively is only, what, about 50%? If he gets the AoO then his attack sequence is bumped up one turn, he gets the crit before he dies, and everything is the same except you'll have one more round of shooting at Arden. Are you okay with that? In regards to the third Vigor/touch AC problems... yeah, you're problably right. I was in a rush to finish it and release the characters, and may have misadded. That, I'll definitelly look at and fix. I'm pretty sure Rubicanti was using a dorje for that Hammer power, wasn't he? Those never draw AoOs. Zevox Yep he was (he has no other way to use Hammer) and no, dorje use does not provoke AoOs. I'm glad El Rapido got paired. Totally cool with that. Thanks for keeping at it, SoZ! TM Zevox
Rauul 05-02-07, 07:45 PM	@Macbrea tactics for Corrupter sent vs unknown lady in a white dress.. Have fun!
NiQil 05-02-07, 10:32 PM	@ Yitzi: Tactics for Tyden Rayn have been forwarded via PM.
Salrantol 05-03-07, 07:26 AM	@Maraxus: Tactics for Enoch the Prophet sent via PM.
Horatius 05-03-07, 08:25 AM	@ Templer10 - Tactics for Mithos in the big caster FFA have been PMed. A Cleric, a Cloistered Cleric, a Fighter/Cleric, and a Blackguard*/Sorcerer - boy am I the odd one out there. Well, at least my saves should ward off those Blindness and Hold spells nicely. Now I just have to hope he gets the same luck in this FFA that his sister did a few weeks ago in hers. *I prefer to use Blackguard for RP reasons with Mithos. I just don't like ascribing the name of Paladin to anything but a true LG holy warrior, and Blackguard has more flavor to it than "Paladin of Tyranny" IMO. Zevox In the last 5 weeks LPG has only had one 'normal' fight. This is his second FFA in the sewers (not his best map). I hope he lasts more than 4 rounds this time! Stupid natural 1 poison save...
templer10 05-03-07, 08:30 AM	In the last 5 weeks LPG has only had one 'normal' fight. This is his second FFA in the sewers (not his best map). I hope he lasts more than 4 rounds this time! Stupid natural 1 poison save... well, this is the 5th week in a row i think i was either with LPG or against LPG or pitlorded LPG..... on my note - iam rooting for a 1 from SOMEONE to make that fight a little more bearable.
Horatius 05-03-07, 08:49 AM	well, this is the 5th week in a row i think i was either with LPG or against LPG or pitlorded LPG..... on my note - iam rooting for a 1 from SOMEONE to make that fight a little more bearable. Yeah, we've been bumping into each other a lot lately. Maybe we should form our own fan club. That last one was rough though - 1st attack, only a 1/4 chance to hit, and I would have made the save on a 2. Tactics for the FFA sent.
templer10 05-03-07, 09:00 AM	abysal stalker - tactics for lord lorian sent. rauul- tactics will be for el rapido shortly- couldnt for the life of me find a humanoid medium creature in ECL 6 - only thing similar is annis hag and those nasties are large... EDIT- correction - apperantly see hag vampire? is CR6?
templer10 05-03-07, 09:35 AM	rauul- tactics sent for el rapido fight (in which iam going to get slaughtered).
TelinArtho 05-03-07, 09:45 AM	This is just to serve as reference to me so I don't need to search for the links every time I'm working on the fight: First Setup Post Second Setup Post Third Setup Post First Fight Post Second Fight Post Zevox's summary of current issues [EDIT - through the first 14 rounds of combat to confirm El Rapido's death. Now things get complicated...]
MitzaVolchenko 05-03-07, 12:17 PM	This is just to serve as reference to me so I don't need to search for the links every time I'm working on the fight: First Setup Post Second Setup Post Third Setup Post First Fight Post Second Fight Post Zevox's summary of current issues [EDIT - through the first 14 rounds of combat to confirm El Rapido's death. Now things get complicated...] Started reading through the fight...this is a tough one since ithas been edited so I am not sure where he moved things around. First 14 rounds are not okay. If they are fighting each other, let them and take a snipe shot when needed to avoid delay penalties. I don't really care who the target is. Note that deflect is only useful with a successful spot or pinpoint listen. By continuing to fire arrows, she gets spotted giving away her location for no reason. She has also closed into what appears to be less than one range increment instead of using the longer range to give her shots while they move in and allow her to change locations with less risk. Round 31, there is no autospot on Zwei. She is within 9' of cover to qualify for her hide, though what she is doing in such an exposed position is anyone's guess as well as why she is so close to the combat. If she is staying at long range which is specified, Touchsight is useless. It reaches 60' and does not remove the need for line of effect...pillars and columns block it. Round 40 Arden "figures out what is going on" and automatically moves toward Zwei though her snipe was successful? and she is out of touchsight range? I still haven't gone through the rolls. I am purely looking at it from what I specified in tactics versus what is there.
Zevox 05-03-07, 12:39 PM	Round 31, there is no autospot on Zwei. She is within 9' of cover to qualify for her hide Mitza, being within 9' of cover does not let you hide. I've been posting this every time you mention this misconception for weeks now. Take a look at the hide rules again: If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check; see below), though, you can attempt to hide. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Hide check if you can get to a hiding place of some kind. (As a general guideline, the hiding place has to be within 1 foot per rank you have in Hide.) This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast. This is the only place the rules mention anything akin to what you say, and as you can see it applies only when your foe is distracted somehow (as with a successful bluff check), and only allows you to move to that cover. Thats it. You still need cover or concealment to hide, you can just move to cover quickly if your foe is distracted by a bluff check (and in the arena that wouldn't be of much help, since even aside from how tough it would be to bluff someone in mid-combat your foe would remember where the sound of the bluff came from). We do have a house rule that lets you remain hidden within 1 foot/rank of cover when moving from one cover location to another, but thats still not the same as what you keep suggesting. Zevox
MindWandererB 05-03-07, 12:41 PM	Round 31, there is no autospot on Zwei. She is within 9' of cover to qualify for her hide, though what she is doing in such an exposed position is anyone's guess as well as why she is so close to the combat.As to this one point: recall that the 1'/rank rule applies only when you are in motion mid-turn. It doesn't apply when you're stationary between turns. The autospot is correct, given all the behavioral decisions as they stand, about which I will not comment.
TelinArtho 05-03-07, 12:53 PM	Mitza - I tell you what - I will remove all shots for once Zwei knows that the others are engaged. This means she still snipes in rounds 6,9,10 (since she can't see Rubi) ,11 (since Arden isn't engaged with anyone), but not 13. That keeps in line with the tactics you have: There is no rush to engage. Waiting for a target to get into LOS and within two range increments is bully good fun. I prefer that the non-stealthy folks get their hyperness out of their system before joining the fray. If they are fighting each other, let them and take a snipe shot when needed to avoid delay penalties. I don't really care who the target is. Note that deflect is only useful with a successful spot or pinpoint listen. In each of the scenarios above - you had a target within 2 range increments and you had no knowledge of them engaging each other, so the targets are valid for your sniping. This does mean you are not spotted in round 13 - but no one cares anyway - so I don't know why this is really an issue.
TelinArtho 05-03-07, 02:49 PM	Progress is ongoing. Up to round 31 and the current state is Rubi and Arden engaged with each other. From the looks of things - that will be decided pretty quickly.
MitzaVolchenko 05-03-07, 02:55 PM	When Telin is done posting his edit, I will review the fight again. The point in those tactics as has been stated many many times by me was fire only to avoid delay. Nobody else in that match is really a stealth character and the best opposed spotis +5, if Zwei waits until she has one opponent and does not get engaged in a situation other than what she defines, she has an advantage. She also conserves ammunition as the first fightin the cycle was the every arrow fired down range through a building fight. Q: How is the distance measured when determining the number of feet away from cover or concealment you are when attempting to hide, since you can hide up to 1 ft/Hide rank away from cover or concealment? A: The ACTUAL distance is what matters. This would be the distance 'as the crow flies', rather than the distance you would have to actually move to reach cover or concealment. That is what keeps confusing me. @The two uninvolved parties that sent me nasty PM's, do it again and I will report you to WotC. I don't need your load of BS in my life right now.
TelinArtho 05-03-07, 03:06 PM	Mitza - I'm giving you as much ground as I feel is warranted by the tactics and the situation. This means that before Zwei knows her opponents are engaged with each other - she fires occasional pot shots. After they are engaged for sure, she holds back and fires once every 10 rounds. The end result at this point is still going to be between Zwei and either Rubi or Arden (unless something strange happens - which I can't rule out at this point) - so to save everyone further headaches - I think it is best to concentrate on heading forward.
Sunwolf 05-03-07, 04:52 PM	FYI Mobility [General] Prerequisites Dex 13, Dodge. Benefit You get a +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against attacks of opportunity caused when you move out of or within a threatened area. A condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes you lose dodge bonuses. Dodge bonuses stack with each other, unlike most types of bonuses. Just wanted to clear up a possible misconception that mobility only works if you move out of a threatened area. Note bolded line above. Standing up in a threatened area counts as moving within a threatened area.
McJarvis 05-03-07, 04:54 PM	FYI Just wanted to clear up a possible misconception that mobility only works if you move out of a threatened area. Note bolded line above. Standing up in a threatened area counts as moving within a threatened area. I think so too, but the public that be don't seem to think so. =\
MindWandererB 05-03-07, 04:57 PM	Standing up in a threatened area counts as moving within a threatened area.Move action != moving. It doesn't help you when you draw a potion, it doesn't help you when you reload a crossbow, and it doesn't help you when you stand up.
Sjiggie 05-03-07, 05:54 PM	@ Erithmu Tactics send for Gradak (vs Ilendil) also send a pm about a mistake I made with him to you and TelinArtho please respond to this. -Sjiggie
McJarvis 05-03-07, 06:33 PM	Move action != moving. It doesn't help you when you draw a potion, it doesn't help you when you reload a crossbow, and it doesn't help you when you stand up. True, but the entire point of standing up is to "move", whereas drawing a potion & reloading a xbow the motive is less movement oriented.
MindWandererB 05-03-07, 07:03 PM	True, but the entire point of standing up is to "move", whereas drawing a potion & reloading a xbow the motive is less movement oriented. While that's true from a semantic perspective, it's not true from a game-mechanic perspective. Unless you are going from one square to another, you're not technically moving.
MitzaVolchenko 05-03-07, 07:50 PM	While that's true from a semantic perspective, it's not true from a game-mechanic perspective. Unless you are going from one square to another, you're not technically moving. Actually I would say that you are the one reading too much into what constitutes moving, but whatever you want...I have seen this debate elsewhere and universally it has been ruled that standing from prone is moving, standing from kneeling is free. I asked a RPGA buddy of mine and their ruling is also that standing is movement and covered by mobility.
Erithmu 05-03-07, 07:53 PM	@Telin, Yitzi, hogarth: all missions have been progressed to the point that they require input. @T10: writing tactics now.... will be sent when completed I am going to see midnight of spiderman 3 tonight, so I think I'm going to be up for quite a bit.
Yitzi 05-03-07, 08:56 PM	@Telin, Yitzi, hogarth: all missions have been progressed to the point that they require input. And responded.
McJarvis 05-03-07, 09:22 PM	While that's true from a semantic perspective, it's not true from a game-mechanic perspective. Unless you are going from one square to another, you're not technically moving. If this is the logic we use around here, then there should be no listen check for people attacking because there is no listen DC listed for such a thing in the SRD. We(well, I did) used semantics from invisibility rules to determine that the DC is 0 no matter what. Either we use semantics or we use straight rules. Can't go both ways.
TheMagister 05-03-07, 09:26 PM	I hate that house rule. {politician's chummy voice} "If I'm elected Elder, I'll campaign to do away with the crummy 'attacking grants a DC 0 listen check' rule!" {cheering} {TM flashes the 'V for victory' finger signs}
NiQil 05-03-07, 10:03 PM	I hate that house rule. {politician's chummy voice} "If I'm elected Elder, I'll campaign to do away with the crummy 'attacking grants a DC 0 listen check' rule!" {cheering} {TM flashes the 'V for victory' finger signs} Ummm...last time I checked, I don't recall that having been added to the Court Decisions as an agreed-upon interpretation. I know I never voted on such a rule. As far as I know, there was never a consensus.
MindWandererB 05-03-07, 10:21 PM	Ummm...last time I checked, I don't recall that having been added to the Court Decisions as an agreed-upon interpretation. I know I never voted on such a rule. As far as I know, there was never a consensus. Then I'm afraid you weren't paying attention. Although there was much dissent, that was what several of the Elders decided. The problem was that almost everyone agreed that attacking should make some noise, and DC 0 was the closest thing we could find based on RAW.
NiQil 05-03-07, 10:32 PM	Then I'm afraid you weren't paying attention. Although there was much dissent, that was what several of the Elders decided. The problem was that almost everyone agreed that attacking should make some noise, and DC 0 was the closest thing we could find based on RAW. It's certainly possible that I missed it...I recall the discussion, just not a consensus. If you could point me in the general direction of the decision, I will look it over so I can get the CD updated with it. I don't necessarily have an opinion on the issue one way or the other, but if there was a majority decision, then it needs to be in there.
MindWandererB 05-03-07, 11:47 PM	It's certainly possible that I missed it...I recall the discussion, just not a consensus. If you could point me in the general direction of the decision, I will look it over so I can get the CD updated with it. I don't necessarily have an opinion on the issue one way or the other, but if there was a majority decision, then it needs to be in there. Telin is the master of archive-searching, not me. Nine taverns, four councils, a courtroom, and an ask an elder thread, plus God knows how many FotW threads, and I have no clue.
Yitzi 05-04-07, 12:34 AM	Tyden Rayn vs The Shadow (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=12294937#post12294937) is up. That was a tough one.
TelinArtho 05-04-07, 02:39 AM	Telin is the master of archive-searching, not me. Nine taverns, four councils, a courtroom, and an ask an elder thread, plus God knows how many FotW threads, and I have no clue. Yeah yeah yeah... I'll take a look for it in the morning... That said - I disagree with the DC0 check myself - so maybe it bears reviewing again.
Rauul 05-04-07, 04:11 AM	Tyden Rayn vs The Shadow (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=12294937#post12294937) is up. That was a tough one. Thanks for the run.. I Didn't forget about his +9 to spot.. i just didn't wanna deal with that dissipating touch.. and would rather run away and deal with arrows than deal with a one shot massive damage.. But i am happy with the lost... Good fight NiQil.. Only complaint is my 19% bonus to exp and gold for Political Connections :) Please correct :)
Yitzi 05-04-07, 08:16 AM	Only complaint is my 19% bonus to exp and gold for Political Connections :) Please correct :) Whoops! Fixed.
McJarvis 05-04-07, 08:22 AM	Yeah yeah yeah... I'll take a look for it in the morning... That said - I disagree with the DC0 check myself - so maybe it bears reviewing again. Should probably get to that once the new elders are decided on(which should happen pretty quickly here). Hell, with three spots open I'll even throw my application in the pile :)
Erithmu 05-04-07, 11:23 AM	@All: I will be heading out of town this weekend in about 4 hrs from the time of this post. I should still be lurking around until then, but after that I probably won't have much contact till Monday afternoon (I'll probably swing in Sunday night).
TelinArtho 05-04-07, 11:37 AM	Telin is the master of archive-searching, not me. Nine taverns, four councils, a courtroom, and an ask an elder thread, plus God knows how many FotW threads, and I have no clue. Ask and ye shall receive: Okay - as far as I can tell, the discussion started in the FotW threads around October of 2006 (which I don't save locally - you'll have to find them in the archive). The first posts about it that I have found so far start at post 831 of the original Ask An Elder thread. There has to be a discussion on stealth every month or so, I guess it's that time. It was mentioned in the Fight of the Week thread that the 'twang' of a bowstring has been ruled somewhere apparently, as a flat DC 0 listen check to hear and thus be 'aware' of/pinpoint the source. My first comment on this is... this ruling seems extraneous. Hide and Move silently do a very good job at managing awareness without requiring someone to roll dice for every single action they take, but merely applies modifiers to one (or two, if both are on the block) overall roll that represents -everything- you do in a round. There are exceptions that set a DC (command words/spellcasting/talking), but all of them that I know of are actions whose purpose is to create sound and thus, cannot generally be done 'quieter' than normal and still be effective, whereas everything else in general, can. I could see attacking imposing a penalty to move silently, as it already does to hide, but not allowing an additional check/setting the DC to something so extremely low! So then, is this a generally used rule? A random tidbit from some fight best left forgotten/overturned in the judgements of time? Or, if a specific question need be asked... 'If someone is attacked with a bow from an unseen source, does hearing the attack depend on hearing the source of the attack (I.E: The attackers move silently check and relevant mods)? If not, what does it depend on?' Relevance: Monks & Deflect arrows vs invisible attackers. Assassins & Studying while using bows. The discussion comes in and out of the mainline for over 100 posts, and only around post 915, from MWB, do we start to see progress toward an anwer: @McJarvis: Go with that for now. We might hash out something a little more complicated later, but using MS is a good rule of thumb in the absence of anything more official. The closest thing I can find is the Listen skill lists a -10DC to hear a battle. What qualifies as a battle? A sword hitting a shield is probably loud and would qualify as a battle. Hitting an unarmored foe with an arrow could be very silent in comparison but not totally silent either. Drawing your sword and charging would be the beginning of a battle. The whole twang of a bow string idea is reasonable to an extent since it is part of a battle. I don't realy know the answer to your question. The core rules are slim on this issue, and we don't have much to use to make a ruling. A good solid answer would require making up a bunch of stuff (as DM do on a regular basis). A firm appeal to reasonable standards would require having different listen DC's to hear someone draw a spiked chain than to draw a dagger. Attacks with a heavy crossbow would have a lower listen DC than hand crossbows. I don't feel like the community would accept a new block of house rules which have no basis in the core books. If cornered on the issue, I'd say that attacking with any weapon is a battle, so the resulting listen check DC is -10 which can be used to pinpoint. That seams harsh, but it's the closest we can come to finding something in the rules on the issue. Hm. We need a tiebreaker. A Flat DC of -10 is too harsh for my tastes, plus I think skill should be involved. An MS check at -10 would be a pure house rule--if anything, it would be at -20 (standard penalty for MS in combat). But again, I think that's too harsh, since battle hasn't actually been engaged yet. Battle begins with initiative. So all coco fights are battle. In any case MS is not the appropreat skill. You aren't moving when you are attacking. The movement is not what is heard. You are attacking. That attack makes noise. There is no attack silently skill. The listen check would also be for where the "battle" is taking place, meaning the user could pinpoint...the arena. I doubt a halfling sneaking around two fighters fighting would make more noise than one not doing so. Also, I doublt that same halfling would make more noise himself while throwing a dagger at a tree than throwing it at one of the two fighters. Using my own interpretation- the battle is where the people who are getting hurt are.(you could hear the dagger hit the tree- you could hear the dagger hit the fighter)With your example of a thrown weapon, perhaps the sound would emanate from the location damage takes place. However whenever a gun is fired you hear a sound from the location of the shooter. Simularly whenever a bow or crossbow is fired, you hear a sound from the location of the archer. That sound is not as loud as a gun, but it is certianly detectable. In any case it's all moot. These kinds of thoughts are all reasonable, but they are not supported by core rules. There is no core skill for attack silently. With your example of a thrown weapon, perhaps the sound would emanate from the location damage takes place. However whenever a gun is fired you hear a sound from the location of the shooter. Simularly whenever a bow or crossbow is fired, you hear a sound from the location of the archer. That sound is not as loud as a gun, but it is certianly detectable. In any case it's all moot. These kinds of thoughts are all reasonable, but they are not supported by core rules. There is no core skill for attack silently. Where the sound originates from isn't moot & isn't specified in the rules one way or the other. edit- Would it be a case-by-case basis, or would you want to say that the sound originates from both the shooter & the target? Yea. If we want to avoid houserules, the best way to do it would be to make it a Listen vs. MS check with no additional modifiers beyond what normally applies. Simple as that. If we want balance, we could apply at most a -10 penalty to MS (distance, no +listen item w/o credits). I'm sorry, but I totally dissagree with this suggestion. Making a move silently check apply to attacking silently is like using the heal skill for concentration checks on cure spells in combat. It's not the appropreat skill for the task at hand. The issue is that there is no skill that is used to attack silently. Move Silently is obviously not the appropreat skill to attack silently or even to snipe silently. Move silently allows you to get into position and move position undetected. The skill does not make everything you do silent. No wizard can use move silently to cast silently. No monk can use move silently to silently ram his fist into a foe's face. Simularly no character can use move silently to attack silently. The only core rule we have is that Battle has a listen DC of -10. There is nothing specific about what is Battle. I think battle is whenever initiative is rolled and one character attacks another. Well - I'm going to stop quoting for a while - but I can say that MWB and Sauro go on for a while on their own with occasional posts in support of both of them. In post 957, MWB states that they both have agreement from the populace and officially calls for a tie-breaker from another elder... That table [in the move silently description] appears to be a set of modifiers to listen DCs not a set of DCs. Perhaps the +/- was mistakingly left off of the 0 of In combat. [text in brackets added for clarification] Not likely, because then it would say "Move Silently check result –0". That's a lot of text to leave off. I think they really intend for it to be impossible to intentionally "fight quieter." Although I'd house rule it differently, it really does look like a DC 0 Listen check is most appropriate for an attack of any kind. I agree that this nerfs stealth builds, possibly unfairly, but I can't see anything in the rules to suggest a different approach. [Looks like there's a special character there - not sure what it is, but probably +/-] Then it appears we are in agreement. There is no skill for fighting silently. The DC0 listen check to hear an attack is reasonable and suggested by the section Maraxus notes. I suppose it would also be modified by distance in the case of a ranged attack. If the foe was hidden, and you rely only on sound to pinpoint, a DC20 would be required to locate the attacker. That's not at all unreasonable. Well, technically, powers that have no auditory display (or if the display is suppressed) are completely silent. So that would be yet another advantage for psionics. @Sauro: While I still don't agree that MS can't be used for actions other than moving from place to place (and I'd still use an MS check for drawing a weapon, escaping from a net, and a few other things), the best we have for an "attacking" DC is indeed a flat 0. The distance penalty should help, and it's still hard to pinpoint, so it should still be manageable. That appears to be the end of the discussion. I should note that this took place before I was an elder. Pittbull and NiQil were also elders at the time but I did not see a single post from them. There's a lot of discussion in that range relating to the issue that I've cut out. I do not intend to influence the discussion one way or the other based on these quotes and recommend that all elders look it up for themselves.
McJarvis 05-04-07, 12:02 PM	It was in a private chat session that MWB told me that ray attacks from spells/powers would also generate a DC 0 listen check, due to them being "attacks"
MindWandererB 05-04-07, 12:45 PM	It was in a private chat session that MWB told me that ray attacks from spells/powers would also generate a DC 0 listen check, due to them being "attacks" And Sauro took it a step further, stating that spells like Charm Person are also considered "attacks" (per the definition in Invisibility), and would be the same. I really disagree with that.
TelinArtho 05-04-07, 01:10 PM	Well, I've posted the first 40 rounds of the FFA. It looks like there's going to be a fair amount more and things just got interesting for Rubi (and Arden I suppose). The deleted rolls in my roller are an error and will be used at the next opportunity that opposed trips come up.
McJarvis 05-04-07, 01:17 PM	Given that there are so many ways to locate an opponent independant of sounds from attacks, I think it would be reasonable to just remove the listen DC altogether. We don't have listen DC's for drinking potions or any other type of non-MS related movement, & I see no reason to start houseruling them in. -McJ-
Zevox 05-04-07, 01:32 PM	Well, I've posted the first 40 rounds of the FFA. It looks like there's going to be a fair amount more and things just got interesting for Rubi (and Arden I suppose). The deleted rolls in my roller are an error and will be used at the next opportunity that opposed trips come up. Just noticed this in Rubi's tactics, and I know from the rolls it doesn't matter so far, but it needs to be pointed out that his calculation of his disarm mod is in error. He only gets the +4 for a two-handed weapon if his weapon is actually in the two-handed category - he can't just hold any weapon two-handed to get it. So his disarm mod is only +11, not +15. Step 2: Opposed Rolls. You and the defender make opposed attack rolls with your respective weapons. The wielder of a two-handed weapon on a disarm attempt gets a +4 bonus on this roll, and the wielder of a light weapon takes a –4 penalty. (An unarmed strike is considered a light weapon, so you always take a penalty when trying to disarm an opponent by using an unarmed strike.) If the combatants are of different sizes, the larger combatant gets a bonus on the attack roll of +4 per difference in size category. If the targeted item isn’t a melee weapon, the defender takes a –4 penalty on the roll. Zevox
McJarvis 05-04-07, 01:35 PM	I believe this has been covered by RotG articles before. The weapon "categories" should not be considered references, and wielding weapons two handed gives you the benefits of two-handedness(like resisting disarm attempts, power attack, and str multipliers)
Zevox 05-04-07, 01:42 PM	I believe this has been covered by RotG articles before. The weapon "categories" should not be considered references, and wielding weapons two handed gives you the benefits of two-handedness(like resisting disarm attempts, power attack, and str multipliers) Then would you say that you could wield a light weapon two-handed to negate its -4 penalty to such rolls? *shakes his head* If thats honestly in one of those, its just one more of Skip's rulings I consider stupid. Anyway, just took a look at the fight as posted, and it looks like theres two more things to mention. Arden dropped his Guisarme - why? Better to be tripped than lose his weapon if you ask me (particularly when he knows Rubi has been trying to get him to do just that). And Rubicanti was allowed to pick it up when it was in Arden's space - why? Last I checked you needed to be in the same space as an item to pick it up - or at least, thats how I've always seen it run - and Rubicanti can't move into Arden's space unless he wants to grapple or bull rush him out of it. Should've looked at Rubi's tactics more closely before so I could point these things out before they got going I guess... Zevox
McJarvis 05-04-07, 01:48 PM	Then would you say that you could wield a light weapon two-handed to negate its -4 penalty to such rolls? *shakes his head* If thats honestly in one of those, its just one more of Skip's rulings I consider stupid. *shrug*. Makes sense to me that it would be more difficult to disarm someone holding a dagger in two hands than just one.
Zevox 05-04-07, 01:57 PM	Well, it seems to me that the disarm rules quite clearly state that its a two-handed weapon, not a weapon that is being held two-handed, that gets the bonus. Theres a difference. Personally, whether it'd be tougher to disarm a dagger held two-handed or not, I don't think it'd be that much tougher for it to get a full +4 bonus to the check. The PA and two-handed damage rules are clearly spelled out in the rules to apply to one-handed weapons held in two hands. The disarm (and sunder, incidentally) rules just as clearly say only "two-handed weapon". Seems cut-and-dry enough to me. Zevox
Macbrea 05-04-07, 02:05 PM	It could have a factor of size. SRD states: A weapon’s size category isn’t the same as its size as an object. Instead, a weapon’s size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder. In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder. This generally means that a one handed weapon (able to be held in primary, off hand or both hands) is upsized one category be automaticly becomes a two-handed weapon (requires two hands to wield). The statement in disarm probably applies only to weapons that require two hands to wield. The problem comes in when you have a light weapon two times upsized to make the effort to wield it Two handed. Does it count as a light weapon or a two handed weaopn? It is determined by the amount of effort required to wield the weapon I would think.
Macbrea 05-04-07, 02:07 PM	Note: the reason I asked is because Izumi wields a Light weapon in two hands because it's two times upsized. So, it is relavent to the current situation.
McJarvis 05-04-07, 02:22 PM	Well, it seems to me that the disarm rules quite clearly state that its a two-handed weapon, not a weapon that is being held two-handed, that gets the bonus. Theres a difference. Personally, whether it'd be tougher to disarm a dagger held two-handed or not, I don't think it'd be that much tougher for it to get a full +4 bonus to the check. I don't really consider it a boolean kind of thing. +4 for two-handed and -4 for light = 0 modifier for weilding a dagger two-handedly.
Zevox 05-04-07, 02:27 PM	I don't really consider it a boolean kind of thing. +4 for two-handed and -4 for light = 0 modifier for weilding a dagger two-handedly. ...which is basically what I just said, no? That I don't think that holding the dagger two-handed is going to it make it that much more difficult to disarm (or that much easier to disarm with, for that matter)? Whatever. The rules are clear if you ask me. If that RotG article exists, I guess we're stuck with it. I don't like the idea, but then again I can count the number of RotG rulings I can recall liking on one finger. Zevox
McJarvis 05-04-07, 02:34 PM	...which is basically what I just said, no? That I don't think that holding the dagger two-handed is going to it make it that much more difficult to disarm (or that much easier to disarm with, for that matter)? All I was saying the entire time was that the dagger gets an additional +4 bonus when weilded two handed. I'm sorry if I didn't communicate clearly that I still felt it got the -4 penalty for being a light weapon :)
Zevox 05-04-07, 02:41 PM	All I was saying the entire time was that the dagger gets an additional +4 bonus when weilded two handed. I'm sorry if I didn't communicate clearly that I still felt it got the -4 penalty for being a light weapon :) No, you were fine - I never got that impression. I think somewhere we got disconnected on the general idea of what we were talking about. I've mostly been trying to keep this rules-oriented, with only a line or two of RW-reasoning thrown in against yours. And that is simply that I just don't think that a dagger held in two hands is going to be as tough to force out of an opponent's grip as a longsword wielded in one, or as easy to use to force another weapon out of someone's hands as a longsword wielded in one hand. It doesn't make sense to either in RW terms or rules terms, but its the latter that matters here anyway. Zevox
TelinArtho 05-04-07, 02:51 PM	Well, it seems to me that the disarm rules quite clearly state that its a two-handed weapon, not a weapon that is being held two-handed, that gets the bonus. Theres a difference. Personally, whether it'd be tougher to disarm a dagger held two-handed or not, I don't think it'd be that much tougher for it to get a full +4 bonus to the check. The PA and two-handed damage rules are clearly spelled out in the rules to apply to one-handed weapons held in two hands. The disarm (and sunder, incidentally) rules just as clearly say only "two-handed weapon". Seems cut-and-dry enough to me. Zevox As MacBrea pointed out, the weapon category (Light, One-handed, Two-handed) is a function of the weapon size and the wielder's size. As to the question about the disarm in question, I have always run that the bonus to disarm is determined by how many hands you hold it with (up to 2 of course...). A light weapon is always a light weapon; a one-handed weapon could be a one or two-handed weapon and a two-handed weapon is always a two-handed weapon. If this is not the case, we get into a wonky situation with the Bastard Sword and Dwarven Waraxe. Someone who is proficient with martial weapons but who does not have Exotic WP: Bastard Sword treats the bastard sword as a two-handed martial weapon. That means the character gets a +4 bonus to his disarm checks. However, once he becomes proficient with it, he no longer gets this bonus because it is a one-handed exotic weapon - even if he wields it in two hands. It is, quite frankly, more difficult to disarm something from someone when they have both hands on it. Light weapons become an "exception" because of the style of weapon - they usually have short hilts or hafts that don't facilitate a good grasp with two hands (when the weapon is sized for the wielder). As to the letting go of the guisarme versus being tripped - this is just one of those calls that you are going to have to let go. In most circumstances that I have seen, when someone gets reversed on a trip or disarm, they ask to drop the weapon rather than be knocked prone. In the absence of tactics listed, I have to make a judgement call. If it states somewhere in your tactics to take the reverse trip - I will happily edit for this fact. Without it, I'm sorry but you are just going to have to take it. For the matter of picking up your guisarme - I need to review on it. I believe you can grab something off the floor in any of your regular reach squares. If by doing so, you are in someone else's threatened area - you provoke an AoO. If there is something in the rules that prevents it though - let me know.
Zevox 05-04-07, 03:03 PM	As to the letting go of the guisarme versus being tripped - this is just one of those calls that you are going to have to let go. In most circumstances that I have seen, when someone gets reversed on a trip or disarm, they ask to drop the weapon rather than be knocked prone. In the absence of tactics listed, I have to make a judgement call. If it states somewhere in your tactics to take the reverse trip - I will happily edit for this fact. Without it, I'm sorry but you are just going to have to take it. Normally I would just let it go, but in this case it seems contrary to all reason to me. Rubicanti has been trying to disarm Arden for several rounds. Arden knows this. He now has the choice between being yanked off his feet or dropping his weapon - the former is bad, but the latter is what his opponent has been actively trying to force him to do. So he goes and does exactly what his opponent wants? Huh? Totally illogical. For the matter of picking up your guisarme - I need to review on it. I believe you can grab something off the floor in any of your regular reach squares. If by doing so, you are in someone else's threatened area - you provoke an AoO. If there is something in the rules that prevents it though - let me know. Unfortunately, theres nothing in the rules one way or the other. All we have is the entry in the actions table saying that picking up an object is a move action that provokes. I'm just citing how I've always seen it run around here in the past. Zevox
Yitzi 05-04-07, 03:03 PM	Another argument for it being how many hands you hold it with is that that way a weapon being used by someone the wrong size will have the same bonus as the same weapon being used by someone of the proper size, since the 2-handed/light bonus/penalty will cancel out with the size effects.
TelinArtho 05-04-07, 03:11 PM	Normally I would just let it go, but in this case it seems contrary to all reason to me. Rubicanti has been trying to disarm Arden for several rounds. Arden knows this. He now has the choice between being yanked off his feet or dropping his weapon - the former is bad, but the latter is what his opponent has been actively trying to force him to do. So he goes and does exactly what his opponent wants? Huh? Totally illogical. Not totally. Being tripped leaves you in an exposed condition - you are more supceptible to hits (-4 to AC) and have a harder time making effective hits on your opponents (-4 to attack). By being tripped, you will provoke an AoO to stand up at a lower AC; by dropping the weapon, you will provoke an AoO to pick up the weapon at a better AC. Since you have backup weapons and armor spikes - you benefit more by staying standing because it maintains a higher AC and maintains your higher attack bonus. I don't know what to tell you but we apparently have different opinions on how this situation unfolds in this case. However, in the absence of tactics, I had to make a call on it and I went with what most of the tactics I had seen up to this point have indicated to do in a similar situation. Unfortunately, my call was not what you wanted, but I have no way of knowing this.
Zevox 05-04-07, 03:23 PM	Not totally. Being tripped leaves you in an exposed condition - you are more supceptible to hits (-4 to AC) and have a harder time making effective hits on your opponents (-4 to attack). By being tripped, you will provoke an AoO to stand up at a lower AC; by dropping the weapon, you will provoke an AoO to pick up the weapon at a better AC. Since you have backup weapons and armor spikes - you benefit more by staying standing because it maintains a higher AC and maintains your higher attack bonus. I don't know what to tell you but we apparently have different opinions on how this situation unfolds in this case. However, in the absence of tactics, I had to make a call on it and I went with what most of the tactics I had seen up to this point have indicated to do in a similar situation. Unfortunately, my call was not what you wanted, but I have no way of knowing this. Fine. If I'm stuck with it, so be it. I still think that playing into exactly what my opponent obviously wants me to do is the height of stupidity, whatever the mechanics are. I personally think its silly to completely ignore that, unlike in those most cases you've previously, in this one my opponent is trying to disarm me, and go ahead and apply the same decision as in a situation lacking that factor. But if its a pitlord call you're not willing to consider changing, so be it. I only have to ask one thing - when Rubicanti is killed, Arden will retrieve his weapons off his corpse to facilitate his intent to sunder Zwei's bow, right? Zevox
TelinArtho 05-04-07, 03:31 PM	I only have to ask one thing - when Rubicanti is killed, Arden will retrieve his weapons off his corpse to facilitate his intent to sunder Zwei's bow, right? Zevox Certainly - its not like Zwei is actively going to engage anyone. Heck - he can have tea and cookies if he wants...
templer10 05-04-07, 04:11 PM	Question about tripping just to make sure - you do get a free follow up attack after someone with improved trip tripped someone with an AoA right? i ask this becuase i found this in the court desicions - "Q: Does the Combat Expertise>Improved Trip>Knockdown feat chain allow you to perform an attack>trip>attack combo? A: No. As Knockdown provides a free trip after a standard action, you do not have a standard action to give up at that point to perform the trip action required to receive the free attack that Improved Trip provides." btw this ruling is prett odd considering neither of the feats - improved trip OR knowck-dwon mention they can be used only as a standart action - all you need is an "attack" which as i read it can be AoA, single attack or full attack. EDIT - ah i think i figured out the ruling - makes sense but i think you need to change the wording to - No. As Knockdown provides a free trip after an attack action, since you did not do an attack action to get the opponent tripped you do not receive the free attack that Improved Trip provides."
TelinArtho 05-04-07, 04:15 PM	Well - its mostly bad wording in the court decisions. Essentially it was decided that getting a second attack for free after you already got the free trip was too much and was likely not the intent behind the feat. I barely remember the conversation though - it was certainly a while ago. That said, if you trip someone on an AoO, and you have the improved trip feat, you do get the follow up attack.
McJarvis 05-04-07, 04:17 PM	Essentially it was decided that getting a second attack for free after you already got the free trip was too much and was likely not the intent behind the feat. I really feel like the court decisions were all made in different "eras" of elders. At one point they made decisions based on intent, another they made decisions based on what the rules explicitly said & nothing more, at another....etc, etc.
TelinArtho 05-04-07, 04:31 PM	Well that's bound to happen over time with different minds, views, opinions and resources. Many of the court decisions have undergone revisions over time with just respect to the FAQ, Rules of the Game and other like-resources. In other cases, it depended on who were the elders and who were the people lobbying for one thing or another. It is no big surprise that some people lobby more efficiently than others; for that matter it is no surprise that some elders are more relaxed while others are more stringent. One of the benefits of having a group of elders is to have a multi-faceted group of opinions and resources to draw from.
templer10 05-04-07, 04:53 PM	ok- another question - when you tumble away to avoid AoA- are you stuck with the half move speed for your whole move? if you double move can you do the other move at regular speed? if answer to first and second question is yes (can move at regular speed at second move) what happen with the withdraw action which is a full round action in which you do the whole move without seperation between move and another move.
Maraxus 05-04-07, 04:59 PM	I allways played the way, that only the threatened squares count twice
templer10 05-04-07, 05:02 PM	I allways played the way, that only the threatened squares count twice so did i - that's what makes sense- i want to make sure
TelinArtho 05-04-07, 05:07 PM	It is addressed in the FAQ. But the simple answer is only threatened areas count double.
TelinArtho 05-04-07, 05:16 PM	Okay - I think I've done as much with the fight that I can for today. There are a few things I already know I screwed up (Combat expertise for Arden for one), but I'll address that when I come back on Monday.
Zevox 05-04-07, 05:28 PM	Izumi vs Kervan is up. A little closer than I expected, but still a pretty straightforward match. Zevox
MindWandererB 05-04-07, 05:39 PM	@ MindWandererB - Ah, Divine Power - I am so looking forward to getting that one with Ceilia. A fairly easy match up for you, as I'm sure you're aware. Still, this was a bit closer than you expected I'll bet. Another few rounds and you'd lose both Divine Power and Alter Self, giving Izumi better chances to hit you and reducing your own attack and damage potential. Sanctuary + healing would likely have still pulled through in the end, but if Izumi got lucky with the will save or something it might've turned around. And like I said to Macbrea, if she'd gone for grappling, this would've been a whole other ball game.I was counting on Macbrea rarely deviating from his usual tactics with Izumi. Yes, grappling would have been a problem. However, Alter Self has a duration of 10 minutes/level, not 1 minute/level, so no danger of that running out. With Izumi, there's rarely any such thing as "close." Either she gets her 20's or she doesn't. Two of them and I die. As for Kervan, with his low HP and low damage, I have to play the odds. Sometimes it works.
Zevox 05-04-07, 05:52 PM	I was counting on Macbrea rarely deviating from his usual tactics with Izumi. Yes, grappling would have been a problem. However, Alter Self has a duration of 10 minutes/level, not 1 minute/level, so no danger of that running out. It does? *checks* Well, I've been running that wrong for a long time. Huh. Zevox
templer10 05-04-07, 09:13 PM	i need an opinion on something - i hit a spot in the FFA iam running - in which the 2 last fighters left both have healing contingencies using pretty full CLW wands, Both can be out of view indefintly in order to heal, 1 can avoid the other for at least 50 more rounds while the other cant catch up (using the grates) so they are essentially forced into unending ranged combat - now i know the quick and easy solution to make sure they both meet up and finish it 1 way or another fairly quick - but it will take some pretty big improvisations on my part since there are no tactics covering the situation - can i do it?
MindWandererB 05-04-07, 09:34 PM	i need an opinion on something - i hit a spot in the FFA iam running - in which the 2 last fighters left both have healing contingencies using pretty full CLW wands, Both can be out of view indefintly in order to heal, 1 can avoid the other for at least 50 more rounds while the other cant catch up (using the grates) so they are essentially forced into unending ranged combat - now i know the quick and easy solution to make sure they both meet up and finish it 1 way or another fairly quick - but it will take some pretty big improvisations on my part since there are no tactics covering the situation - can i do it? I wouldn't advise it. You should follow the tactics as best you can.
Horatius 05-05-07, 03:58 AM	@templer10 and Zevox: I'm assuming you're speaking (typing) of LPG and Mithos. If so, and if Zevox agrees, I'd be willing to duke it out for first place without healing (starting at full hp). Normal tactics in all other respects.
templer10 05-05-07, 06:24 AM	@templer10 and Zevox: I'm assumeing you're speaking (typing) of LPG and Mithos. If so, and if Zevox agrees, I'd be willing to duke it out for first place without healing (starting at full hp). Normal tactics in all other respects. fine with me - zevox?
templer10 05-05-07, 10:38 PM	iam posting rounds 1 - 25 of the ecl 5 FFA HERE (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12310831&postcount=835) - main events - bulgar dies about half a second before erithmu leacing LPG and mithos stuck in a mexican standoff - read their tactics and understand why - if anyone spot any fight altering errors go ahead but as i see it as soon as Bulgar and erithmu got hit with those Ray of enfeeblemnts for 7! str penalty it was all over for them save the rolling.
Zevox 05-05-07, 10:59 PM	iam posting rounds 1 - 25 of the ecl 5 FFA HERE (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12310831&postcount=835) - main events - bulgar dies about half a second before erithmu leacing LPG and mithos stuck in a mexican standoff - read their tactics and understand why - if anyone spot any fight altering errors go ahead but as i see it as soon as Bulgar and erithmu got hit with those Ray of enfeeblemnts for 7! str penalty it was all over for them save the rolling. And actually, those rays should've been a strength penalty of 9. Ray of Enfeeblement is 1d6+CL, and Mithos' CL is 3. He was casting the first three from memory, so they were 1d6+3, not 1d6+1 as rolled. Not that it matters, but I figured I'd point it out for future reference. I'll go over the fight itself tomorrow. Its a bit late. Zevox
templer10 05-05-07, 11:02 PM	And actually, those rays should've been a strength penalty of 9. Ray of Enfeeblement is 1d6+CL, and Mithos' CL is 3. He was casting the first three from memory, so they were 1d6+3, not 1d6+1 as rolled. Not that it matters, but I figured I'd point it out for future reference. I'll go over the fight itself tomorrow. Its a bit late. Zevox ROE is 1d6 + 1/2 levels so CL 3 = 1d6+1 (i think - it's termed similar to SOF and not MM - which spesify 1 at first level AND 1 per 2 additional levels.). also the second ROE that hit (vs erithmu) was from scroll.
Zevox 05-05-07, 11:11 PM	ROE is 1d6 + 1/2 levels so CL 3 = 1d6+1 (i think - it's termed similar to SOF and not MM - which spesify 1 at first level AND 1 per 2 additional levels.). also the second ROE that hit (vs erithmu) was from scroll. *looks this up* Oh, so it is! Hm, thats a surprise. I've had that mis-run on me in the past then. I'll have to remember this. So Mithos won't get that to +2 until next level... if I'd known that, I'd probably have taken True Strike this level instead, and swapped out Sleep for RoE next level. Meh, oh well, too late for that. Zevox
templer10 05-05-07, 11:14 PM	*looks this up* Oh, so it is! Hm, thats a surprise. I've had that mis-run on me in the past then. I'll have to remember this. So Mithos won't get that to +2 until next level... if I'd known that, I'd probably have taken True Strike this level instead, and swapped out Sleep for RoE next level. Meh, oh well, too late for that. Zevox ROE is still a great spell against anyone even at 1d6+1 since it's at least -1 to attack/dmg VS melee and usually -2 to attack vs ranged since they mostly carry bows with STR rating for their str and not below it.
Zevox 05-05-07, 11:31 PM	ROE is still a great spell against anyone even at 1d6+1 since it's at least -1 to attack/dmg VS melee and usually -2 to attack vs ranged since they mostly carry bows with STR rating for their str and not below it. *shrugs* True, but Mithos could've accomplished the same with cheap (25 gp) scrolls as he does with the memorized spell presently, and be able to use those memory slots for other things (shocking grasps would've been nice in this fight). In any event, it doesn't matter. He has RoE, and next level he'll swap sleep for True Strike, so it'll end up the same anyway. Zevox
TelinArtho 05-06-07, 01:38 AM	@templer10 - Bulgar was on the last fight of his cycle - so he should've been able to cast that second hold person in round 11. I haven't looked much else into the fight - but that is certainly something I want to see edited.
templer10 05-06-07, 08:17 AM	@templer10 - Bulgar was on the last fight of his cycle - so he should've been able to cast that second hold person in round 11. I haven't looked much else into the fight - but that is certainly something I want to see edited. - hmm my bad- did the hold - worked for half a round - not long enough to get even close to CDG - but it changed enough things that by round 15 there is no one near erithmu so he doesnt need to cast SM3 on the defensive and he gets the c-bison- sigh going to see if THAT thing is going to change stuff.
templer10 05-06-07, 11:26 AM	the ECL 5 -FFA saga contniues and is done up to round 28 - Bulgar and erithmu still died but gave a better account of themselves, still stuck at mexican standoff between LPG and mithos.
Yitzi 05-06-07, 01:17 PM	ROE is still a great spell against anyone even at 1d6+1 since it's at least -1 to attack/dmg VS melee and usually -2 to attack vs ranged since they mostly carry bows with STR rating for their str and not below it. And against someone who's pushing their weight limit...
templer10 05-06-07, 08:43 PM	the ecl 5 FFA is done and here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12310831&postcount=835) the suprise result is the littlellest cleric of them won with an inflict spell of all things.... anyone know how to do rewards in 4 way FFA when someone had a light warhorse as an ally?
Yitzi 05-06-07, 10:32 PM	In Multiplayer Fights, one of the participants might bring in an ally. The penalty for bringing in an ally always applies only to the one who brought it in. The reward bonus for the ally is always evenly distributed among all opponents of the character with the ally. So for ECL 5 with one having a light warhorse, the one with the horse gets a 1/12 (8.33%) penalty, and the other 3 each get 1/36 (2.78%) bonus. I wish people would look in the most obvious plae in the rules before asking...
TheMagister 05-07-07, 07:11 AM	Well, I've posted the first 40 rounds of the FFA. It looks like there's going to be a fair amount more and things just got interesting for Rubi (and Arden I suppose). The deleted rolls in my roller are an error and will be used at the next opportunity that opposed trips come up. Thanks for keeping at it! Found a minor thing, though (bookkeeping error, really). In round 19, Rubi is owed +2 dmg from Off. Prescience. And that's it. Nothing, really (unless it turns out to matter in the end). So far, I think Zwei's gonna take this one. TM
templer10 05-07-07, 07:51 AM	i think the lesson learned from all the recent FFA's i did or pitlorded is - BE A CHICKEN AND HIDE - works every time sigh.
TelinArtho 05-07-07, 10:24 AM	i think the lesson learned from all the recent FFA's i did or pitlorded is - BE A CHICKEN AND HIDE - works every time sigh. And that is no big surprise either. The problem really escalates when all 4 characters do not try to engage. If only one does it - then that one pretty much guarantees to hit 2nd (unless the others are gunning for that individual to start with). I can't say I'm fond of the tactic - but for some characters it is the only reasonable chance for success. I just won't do it unless it is the character's regular mode of operation (ie - a sneak) and since I only have one person who is - that means I rarely do it...
templer10 05-07-07, 10:31 AM	And that is no big surprise either. The problem really escalates when all 4 characters do not try to engage. If only one does it - then that one pretty much guarantees to hit 2nd (unless the others are gunning for that individual to start with). I can't say I'm fond of the tactic - but for some characters it is the only reasonable chance for success. I just won't do it unless it is the character's regular mode of operation (ie - a sneak) and since I only have one person who is - that means I rarely do it... i hate that tactic also But next time i hit a FFA i might do it - on another note - i think Bulgar really should get some way to increase his speed - 20 speed is just not enough for a char who is at least partly melee.
Abyssal Stalker 05-07-07, 10:33 AM	*Sigh* I am unable to run the fight Lord Lorian vs Zerth. I forgot to mention Pitlords not to sign anything for me before I get an internet connection to our new home. Here are the tactics, feel free to take it and run it: I have 9pp available this fight and it is the last of my cycle so let's use them. Start closest to the center of the map holding my bow and an arrow. Buffing: Round 1: Manifest Dissolving Weapon on the arrow and put it in the quiver again. Round 2: Draw a second arrow and manifest Dissolving weapon on the second arrow and nock it on the bow. Round 3: Manifest Offensive Prescience from memory and draw powerstone of vigor. Round 4+ Manifest vigor from stone and move out. If I have heard Lorian move towards him otherwise move towards the center. Once I arrive at the edge of the town's square hide near one of the hedges looking over the square. When I see Lorian hide until he is within 1 range increment (I accidently have listed my bow with a 100' ft range but it should be 110'ft) and snipe him with a dissolving arrow at him. Next round do it again. If that didn't kill him move towards him and drop bow draw shield and warhammer. Charge when I can use my outburst ability to gain an extra +2 strenght. On the first strike use psionic weapon to deal an extra 2d6 damage. Continue melee till he is dead. Notes: When vigor runs out use my remaining 2pp to manifest Vigor for +10hp. Don't do that when engaged in melee and he has taken a few hits. His horse and psicrystal died in his cycle so he can't use them If you have questions about the tactics PM me Thanks for running the fight -Sjiggie tactics for lord lorian Hey and thanks for pitlording [General notes I have +1 to hit/dmg with the dorja/ranged touch powers if target is whitin 30 feet. I have +3 to the touch attack with energy ray electricity when target is wearing metal armor and zerth is. set up start in closest point of squere to middle of map, start with shield in hand with powerstone of skate in 1 hand. R1- manifest skate from powerstone and single move (45 feet) to closest balcony. R2- manifest 4 pps vigor from memory for 20 extra HP, single move to closest balcony. R3-manifest psionic levitate from memory, single move to closest Balcony, draw dorja of force screen as part of move. R4- double move to balcony if iam not there yet. the fight well hitting him wont be a problem with my dorja – staying alive until I can kill him with it- will be. At round 4 and following- goal is to get to nearest balcony – levitate over hedges if needed, levitate to the balcony and stand in it getting cover from it. When in balcony manifest force screen from dorja and stow it. Round after that draw dorja of energy ray (the used one) and ready action shoot on sight in range (60). Afterwards- if he approach to whitin 60 feet and/or try to climb to the balcony shoot dorja at him until he dies – expand psionic shot on first dorja shot after ready action happened. contingencies 1)if he keep the fight ranged beyond 60 feet - then he needs to stow his shield which means he has AC of 17 in order to draw longbow – if he does that iam okay with it – I have ac of 27 in balcony (19+4(shield)+4 cover) so he needs 20 to hit. (even with offensive precognition) I need 11 (or 15 of he has cover). Stow dorja and darwood heavy shield and draw longbow – shoot all 50 regular then 20 cold iron then 20 silver arrows, if he aint dead levitate to ground, draw dorja, shoot at hit until he die. 2)if he attempt to climb the balcony he has to first get over the hedge with climb then climb for a full round the balcony which is at least 3 free shots at him when I need 2+ to hit with ranged touch (6+3(since it's electric+1 PBS) – he aint likely to survive that but if he does just levitate 20 feet up and continue shooting dorja at him. 3)if he got to the balcony before me – take cover behind a building whiting range of dorja(don’t go to PBS range if it means leaving cover) and shoot at him- I still have 27 AC and he has touch ac of 12+4(cover). 4)if he is in charge range from me and I cant get to balcony in move or double move – levitate upwards 20 feet and shoot dorja from there – use buildings etc to move at half speed to balcony). 5)reapply 4 pps vigor from memory (onec but leave the last 1 pps free) and force screen from dorja when they run out or temp HP is gone. 6)if iam not doing anything for a round try to regain psionic focus. Pm me with any question please BEFORE the fight. Thanks for help!
TelinArtho 05-07-07, 10:59 AM	i hate that tactic also But next time i hit a FFA i might do it - on another note - i think Bulgar really should get some way to increase his speed - 20 speed is just not enough for a char who is at least partly melee. Well - he's designed to work for both melee and ranged. He usually has his pup to help force melee if needed and he's not a bad shot with the bow. As he levels - his spell selection will improve to gain medium range spells and of course - boots of speed are in the design for later on...
templer10 05-07-07, 11:06 AM	Well - he's designed to work for both melee and ranged. He usually has his pup to help force melee if needed and he's not a bad shot with the bow. As he levels - his spell selection will improve to gain medium range spells and of course - boots of speed are in the design for later on... All you need really for now IMO is couple tattoes of skate - it's usually enough. on another note- anyone volunteering to take the fight between lord lorian and zerth?
Zevox 05-07-07, 11:35 AM	*Sigh* I am unable to run the fight Lord Lorian vs Zerth. I forgot to mention Pitlords not to sign anything for me before I get an internet connection to our new home. Here are the tactics, feel free to take it and run it: I have 9pp available this fight and it is the last of my cycle so let's use them. Start closest to the center of the map holding my bow and an arrow. Buffing: Round 1: Manifest Dissolving Weapon on the arrow and put it in the quiver again. Round 2: Draw a second arrow and manifest Dissolving weapon on the second arrow and nock it on the bow. Round 3: Manifest Offensive Prescience from memory and draw powerstone of vigor. Round 4+ Manifest vigor from stone and move out. If I have heard Lorian move towards him otherwise move towards the center. Once I arrive at the edge of the town's square hide near one of the hedges looking over the square. When I see Lorian hide until he is within 1 range increment (I accidently have listed my bow with a 100' ft range but it should be 110'ft) and snipe him with a dissolving arrow at him. Next round do it again. If that didn't kill him move towards him and drop bow draw shield and warhammer. Charge when I can use my outburst ability to gain an extra +2 strenght. On the first strike use psionic weapon to deal an extra 2d6 damage. Continue melee till he is dead. Notes: When vigor runs out use my remaining 2pp to manifest Vigor for +10hp. Don't do that when engaged in melee and he has taken a few hits. His horse and psicrystal died in his cycle so he can't use them If you have questions about the tactics PM me Thanks for running the fight -Sjiggie tactics for lord lorian Hey and thanks for pitlording [General notes I have +1 to hit/dmg with the dorja/ranged touch powers if target is whitin 30 feet. I have +3 to the touch attack with energy ray electricity when target is wearing metal armor and zerth is. set up start in closest point of squere to middle of map, start with shield in hand with powerstone of skate in 1 hand. R1- manifest skate from powerstone and single move (45 feet) to closest balcony. R2- manifest 4 pps vigor from memory for 20 extra HP, single move to closest balcony. R3-manifest psionic levitate from memory, single move to closest Balcony, draw dorja of force screen as part of move. R4- double move to balcony if iam not there yet. the fight well hitting him wont be a problem with my dorja – staying alive until I can kill him with it- will be. At round 4 and following- goal is to get to nearest balcony – levitate over hedges if needed, levitate to the balcony and stand in it getting cover from it. When in balcony manifest force screen from dorja and stow it. Round after that draw dorja of energy ray (the used one) and ready action shoot on sight in range (60). Afterwards- if he approach to whitin 60 feet and/or try to climb to the balcony shoot dorja at him until he dies – expand psionic shot on first dorja shot after ready action happened. contingencies 1)if he keep the fight ranged beyond 60 feet - then he needs to stow his shield which means he has AC of 17 in order to draw longbow – if he does that iam okay with it – I have ac of 27 in balcony (19+4(shield)+4 cover) so he needs 20 to hit. (even with offensive precognition) I need 11 (or 15 of he has cover). Stow dorja and darwood heavy shield and draw longbow – shoot all 50 regular then 20 cold iron then 20 silver arrows, if he aint dead levitate to ground, draw dorja, shoot at hit until he die. 2)if he attempt to climb the balcony he has to first get over the hedge with climb then climb for a full round the balcony which is at least 3 free shots at him when I need 2+ to hit with ranged touch (6+3(since it's electric+1 PBS) – he aint likely to survive that but if he does just levitate 20 feet up and continue shooting dorja at him. 3)if he got to the balcony before me – take cover behind a building whiting range of dorja(don’t go to PBS range if it means leaving cover) and shoot at him- I still have 27 AC and he has touch ac of 12+4(cover). 4)if he is in charge range from me and I cant get to balcony in move or double move – levitate upwards 20 feet and shoot dorja from there – use buildings etc to move at half speed to balcony). 5)reapply 4 pps vigor from memory (onec but leave the last 1 pps free) and force screen from dorja when they run out or temp HP is gone. 6)if iam not doing anything for a round try to regain psionic focus. Pm me with any question please BEFORE the fight. Thanks for help! If no one else takes this by tomorrow, I will. I have work today, but plenty of spare time tomorrow. So far, I think Zwei's gonna take this one. I still think Arden will. I know he can handle both Rubi and Zwei, and Zwei can't hide from him with his touchsight stone. Zevox
Horatius 05-07-07, 12:29 PM	the ecl 5 FFA is done and here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12310831&postcount=835) the suprise result is the littlellest cleric of them won with an inflict spell of all things.... anyone know how to do rewards in 4 way FFA when someone had a light warhorse as an ally? Thanks. Couple of things: Since Mithos can't gain cover from the grate and his horse at the same time, LPG should hit with his bow in rounds 34 and 40. That gives an additional 2d6+10 dmg (1d6+16 if you keep the 6 from rnd 34), which might save LPG some spell levels and a scroll of shield. Also, in rounds 45-46, LPG can hold the charge on the inflict spell, meaning he doesn't need to cast again. We also need arrow recovery counts, and I think the rewards are off, since both Bulgar and Mithos had a CR1 ally.
TelinArtho 05-07-07, 12:37 PM	All you need really for now IMO is couple tattoes of skate - it's usually enough. on another note- anyone volunteering to take the fight between lord lorian and zerth? Only one of my characters has a tattoo of skate - Kraegin. He bought one at ECL3 when he ran out of ranged weapons in his first fight - and he hasn't used it yet. With Bulgar - its even less of an importance to me because his success in the arena is not that important to me and his speed will never be able to keep up with dragons... which is the reason he is in existence at all. But anyway - I just don't use psionics very often - my home campaigns don't allow it - so I tend to use that same restriction here for myself.
TelinArtho 05-07-07, 12:37 PM	Thanks for keeping at it! Found a minor thing, though (bookkeeping error, really). In round 19, Rubi is owed +2 dmg from Off. Prescience. And that's it. Nothing, really (unless it turns out to matter in the end). So far, I think Zwei's gonna take this one. TM Okay - I've edited that in on my version. Working on it when I can - so be patient as always...
Zevox 05-07-07, 12:40 PM	@ Telin - Just looked at the fight again, and I have to ask - why are Arden's touches to trip Rubi in round 39 at -1? I know hes using combat expertise 3, but that should put him at +5 to touch unarmed (5bab+3str-3exp). Zevox
TelinArtho 05-07-07, 12:44 PM	Excellent question. First off - I know I forgot about expertise and need to edit it in... so that's not the -1. The -1 is the adjustment from the value in the roller between using your [Ma] Guisarme and a regular leg to trip (since you can't trip with your +1 Greatsword.
Zevox 05-07-07, 12:50 PM	Excellent question. First off - I know I forgot about expertise and need to edit it in... so that's not the -1. The -1 is the adjustment from the value in the roller between using your [Ma] Guisarme and a regular leg to trip (since you can't trip with your +1 Greatsword. Ah, I see, so the number is the original roll's total from SoZ's batch. Which just means Arden was rolling horribly for those rolls. Okay then. Zevox
TelinArtho 05-07-07, 12:58 PM	And of course, the lowered rolls results in some interesting changes: 1. Round 31- Arden misses. 2. Round 36- Arden misses on the touch to trip, so the failed trip rolls are saved for later. 3. Round 38- Arden misses on the touch to trip, so he doesn't drop his guisarme. Again - the rolls are saved for later - but since Rubicanti will likely give up on disarming before then - it may no longer be an issue... Anyway - I'm still working on this mess...
TheMagister 05-07-07, 01:00 PM	If Arden's using Combat Expertise, wouldn't his opposed attack rolls with the guisarme be that much lower?
TelinArtho 05-07-07, 01:05 PM	Yup - but it wasn't enough to make a difference on the rounds up to round 38. I'm still working on it though - so I am not sure about possible differences in rounds past 38... EDIT: Okay 1-39 is posted again with the changes as noted above. Eventually, Arden will likely still drop his guisarme, but that will be a while once Arden uses Combat Expertise for 5... If I can't finish this today, I'll run through the monster fight I've got tomorrow and then refocus on this thing.
Erithmu 05-07-07, 02:28 PM	the ecl 5 FFA is done and here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12310831&postcount=835) the suprise result is the littlellest cleric of them won with an inflict spell of all things.... anyone know how to do rewards in 4 way FFA when someone had a light warhorse as an ally? no issues w/ the fight, just a rewards issue of Rith's pol career ... I should be 18%+ 2.78% = 20.78% = 1207xp/1287gp @quester/fight: I have a midterm tonight, I might update my quests on a study break, and the fight will probably be run later tonight ... but I do not claim that it will happen ... only what I hope to accomplish.
TelinArtho 05-07-07, 03:45 PM	Made another update to the fight since I noticed another error on my part. In round 43, Zwei somehow hits Rubi even though her roll is not enough to do so. This means that Rubi doesn't waste that round manifesting Vigor from a powerstone and gets another round in to attack earlier. @Rith - as always real life trumps CoCo activities. If worse comes to worse and Sir Valkin runs late - it is no big deal to me.
Zevox 05-07-07, 03:52 PM	Made another update to the fight since I noticed another error on my part. In round 43, Zwei somehow hits Rubi even though her roll is not enough to do so. This means that Rubi doesn't waste that round manifesting Vigor from a powerstone and gets another round in to attack earlier. @Rith - as always real life trumps CoCo activities. If worse comes to worse and Sir Valkin runs late - it is no big deal to me. An error I see - it looks like you think Arden's defensive precognition gives him only +1 AC, but he augmented it to give +2. This negates Rubi's hit in round 42 at least, possibly others. Zevox
MindWandererB 05-07-07, 03:55 PM	Is this just a bad week for everyone? There's only a day left before the results deadline, and there's only been three completed fights out of fifteen, and only two out of four IMT fights. I think we're going to have a lot of late fights....
TelinArtho 05-07-07, 03:56 PM	Yup - missed that too. Okay - back to working on it... Is this just a bad week for everyone? There's only a day left before the results deadline, and there's only been three completed fights out of fifteen, and only two out of four IMT fights. I think we're going to have a lot of late fights.... Well, this FFA is kicking me hard... Otherwise, I just think that the majority of our pitlords are making better use of the "summer" hours... longer days of sunshine in the US tend to let people spend more time outdoors and less time on the computer (just my experience...). Of course, for people elsewhere (of which I have little knowledge of seasons and such), I'll just say they're lazy :)
Macbrea 05-07-07, 03:57 PM	Well.. I should finish my IMT fight this evening. If Mitza doesn't take my monster fight, which she said she would since she kept me away from home all weekend. I will get to that later tonight and tommorrow. So, either way. My fights will be done.
Erithmu 05-07-07, 04:04 PM	Is this just a bad week for everyone? There's only a day left before the results deadline, and there's only been three completed fights out of fifteen, and only two out of four IMT fights. I think we're going to have a lot of late fights.... Semester system colleges are hitting graduation .. I still have 4 weeks of class left ... :(
templer10 05-07-07, 04:04 PM	i can take another fight if someone needs to unload 1 - just dont make it a multiplayer please - 1 of those in a week is more then enough.
McJarvis 05-07-07, 04:04 PM	Is this just a bad week for everyone? There's only a day left before the results deadline, and there's only been three completed fights out of fifteen, and only two out of four IMT fights. I think we're going to have a lot of late fights.... Don't count on mine being late. I've reserved all night for my fights B-)
MindWandererB 05-07-07, 04:07 PM	Well, this FFA is kicking me hard... Otherwise, I just think that the majority of our pitlords are making better use of the "summer" hours... longer days of sunshine in the US tend to let people spend more time outdoors and less time on the computer (just my experience...). Of course, for people elsewhere (of which I have little knowledge of seasons and such), I'll just say they're lazy :)Ah, yes, sunshine. That would explain why I was clueless... I don't see the sun very much. That, and it's sunny nearly all year 'round where I am anyway.
McJarvis 05-07-07, 04:11 PM	RE: Sunshine. Yeah, I'll admit: I was out bike riding for four or five hours yesterday when I could have been running my fights. =\
Macbrea 05-07-07, 04:21 PM	Bah.. is horrid weather outside right now! 73Ί with 23 mph gusts and partly cloudy!
Rauul 05-07-07, 04:21 PM	El Rapido vs Milly the Sea Hag Vampire can be seen here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12281347&postcount=829) It's not for those weak of heart.. infact it was pretty fast and deadly.. what you would expect from a vampire
McJarvis 05-07-07, 04:35 PM	El Rapido vs Milly the Sea Hag Vampire can be seen here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12281347&postcount=829) It's not for those weak of heart.. infact it was pretty fast and deadly.. what you would expect from a vampire Not that I think it would have changed the fight, but I don't the the wolves were a valid prebuff(only 1 hour duration-> minimum time between fights would make them go poof)
TheMagister 05-07-07, 04:36 PM	But what it lacks in validity it makes up in cool points.
MindWandererB 05-07-07, 04:38 PM	El Rapido vs Milly the Sea Hag Vampire can be seen here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12281347&postcount=829) It's not for those weak of heart.. infact it was pretty fast and deadly.. what you would expect from a vampire Millie's prebuff doesn't work--she summoned them two hours before the fight started, and they only last an hour, so they were gone an hour before the fight started. Edit: Bah, too slow. That's what I get for looking up the vampire first. Edit 2: How does Millie get three claws plus a slam? "A vampire fighting without weapons uses either its slam attack or its primary natural weapon (if it has any)."
TheMagister 05-07-07, 04:43 PM	Good work on the FFA, Telin. We all appreciate it! One thing before Arden finally bites the dust: in round 54, you never have Rubi stand back up from prone w/total defense. So Arden gets another two swings at Rubi (I think) before Rubi touches him and puts him down for good. Edit: Barring reverse dice mojo... {TM does the happy dance!} :dancin: TM
Rauul 05-07-07, 04:43 PM	Millie's prebuff doesn't work--she summoned them two hours before the fight started, and they only last an hour, so they were gone an hour before the fight started. Edit: Bah, too slow. That's what I get for looking up the vampire first. Edit 2: How does Millie get three claws plus a slam? "A vampire fighting without weapons uses either its slam attack or its primary natural weapon (if it has any)." Milly got a full attack and 1 extra claw attack (due to haste) for 3 claw attacks and 1 slam on a full attack, second attack she got a claw (didn't want to do massive over kill with 3 claws and a slam) As for the Wolves they can go poof they had no play in the fight at all, more of a flavor than anything else.. but honestly.. a Sea hag vampire may be CR 6 but is ECL 11 (with 2 neg levels a round if they hit) makes them extremely powerful.. I figured she summoned them just before entering the arena (was going to have her shape changed into a wolf and see him pick out the vampire from the 13 wolves) but figured that would be insane on me as a pitlord..
TelinArtho 05-07-07, 04:44 PM	Well yet another update and the fight has gone into two posts. One of the fighters has fallen so hopefully the remainder of the fight will be pretty simple. In terms of rolls, I am still using what I can from the original fight. Rubicanti is completely out of the original rolls (and has been for a while now), but Zwei still has a decent number of attack rolls left in there. Her hide checks need to rolled though from this point on. EDIT - @TM - okay - I'll edit that in presently.
templer10 05-07-07, 04:50 PM	Milly got a full attack and 1 extra claw attack (due to haste) for 3 claw attacks and 1 slam on a full attack, second attack she got a claw (didn't want to do massive over kill with 3 claws and a slam) EDIT - i missed the +4 to dex - nm also - that slam in round 4 is secondery attack so it's with -5 to hit so it rolled 17 VS ac of 18+2(protection from evil)-2 so it missed. ALSO - the second claw attack if it's even legal didnt hit since it's 17 VS ac 18-2+2 ALSO - and a lot more importent - from the SRD - "Full Attack A vampire fighting without weapons uses either its slam attack (see above) or its natural weapons (if it has any). If armed with a weapon, it usually uses the weapon as its primary attack along with a slam or other natural weapon as a natural secondary attack. " so it can either do claw/claw or slam but not both.- please edit.
TheMagister 05-07-07, 04:51 PM	Thanks. :lightbulb What're the chances of Rubicanti "borrowing" Arden's dorje of force screen for the remainder of the fight? :ayyyy!:
Rauul 05-07-07, 04:52 PM	i might be wrong here- but if i remmber correctly Haste only gives additional attack with "weapon the attacker is holding" not a natrual weapon - also mind explaing how she got 28+1+1 AC? see hag has AC 14+6(vampire)+6(mithral chainshirt+2)+1(dodge)+1(haste)=28. edit=> vampires also get a +4 to dex adding +2 to ac
TelinArtho 05-07-07, 04:52 PM	I was just looking over the tactics of my opponent and I figured I'd point something out (it shouldn't be a big deal for the fight, but it bears mentioning anyway). Eluria mentioned that the psicrystal's presence would make sleep a 50/50 shot - and under normal circumstances, that would be correct. However, the psicrystal is a construct: Sleep does not target unconscious creatures, constructs, or undead creatures.
McJarvis 05-07-07, 04:54 PM	i might be wrong here- but if i remmber correctly Haste only gives additional attack with "weapon the attacker is holding" not a natrual weapon - also mind explaing how she got 28+1+1 AC? see hag has AC 14+6(vampire)+6(mithral chainshirt+2)+1(dodge)+1(haste)=28. DEX has been increased from 12(base creature) to 16(probably due to Raul applying an elite array to the monster).
TelinArtho 05-07-07, 04:59 PM	Thanks. :lightbulb What're the chances of Rubicanti "borrowing" Arden's dorje of force screen for the remainder of the fight? :ayyyy!: Slim to none, where slim is an extremely high value of 0...
Rauul 05-07-07, 04:59 PM	DEX has been increased from 12(base creature) to 16(probably due to Raul applying an elite array to the monster). no that would be the +4 that vampires get naturaly Abilities Increase from the base creature as follows: Str +6, Dex +4, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +4. As an undead creature, a vampire has no Constitution score. (i didn't add no array to the monster)
templer10 05-07-07, 04:59 PM	couple more things from the SRD - "Full Attack A vampire fighting without weapons uses either its slam attack (see above) or its natural weapons (if it has any). If armed with a weapon, it usually uses the weapon as its primary attack along with a slam or other natural weapon as a natural secondary attack. " so it can either do claw/claw or slam but not both.- please edit. even if it was legal - that slam in round 4 should be secondery attack secondery attack so it's with -5 to hit so it rolled 17 VS ac of 18+2(protection from evil)-2 so it missed. ALSO - the second claw attack at round 5 if it's even legal didnt hit since it's 17 VS ac 18-2+2
templer10 05-07-07, 05:02 PM	Rauul - on something tottally diffrent - are you planning on taking a 2 second look from the fight you pitlorded for me last week (elrick flamebrother) - i explained all the problems HERE (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12279215&postcount=241) and even horatius agreed for the review - and it's really a 5 minute job without even needing to do a single roll since you did a very basic mistake there.
Rauul 05-07-07, 05:07 PM	couple more things from the SRD - "Full Attack A vampire fighting without weapons uses either its slam attack (see above) or its natural weapons (if it has any). If armed with a weapon, it usually uses the weapon as its primary attack along with a slam or other natural weapon as a natural secondary attack. " so it can either do claw/claw or slam but not both.- please edit. even if it was legal - that slam in round 4 should be secondery attack secondery attack so it's with -5 to hit so it rolled 17 VS ac of 18+2(protection from evil)-2 so it missed. ALSO - the second claw attack at round 5 if it's even legal didnt hit since it's 17 VS ac 18-2+2 Second claw attack is the crit confirm.. even if it misses, the 2nd claw attacks hits, and still does the same damage.. will edit the text and remove the slam but it still shows Rapido dropping in rd 6..
templer10 05-07-07, 05:10 PM	Second claw attack is the crit confirm.. even if it misses, the 2nd claw attacks hits, and still does the same damage.. will edit the text and remove the slam but it still shows Rapido dropping in rd 6.. can someone confirm or deny possibility to make a second natural attack using haste since the spell goes - "When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding." - btw - i have 6 extra HP from the increae in CON fro mchain of personal superiority. btw- i knew going into the fight i had no chance really- but i like all my ducks in a row, you know...
Rauul 05-07-07, 05:18 PM	can someone confirm or deny possibility to make a second natural attack using haste since the spell goes - "When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding." - btw - i have 6 extra HP from the increae in CON fro mchain of personal superiority. btw- i knew going into the fight i had no chance really- but i like all my ducks in a row, you know... A creature making a melee attack with a natural weapon is considered armed I edited the fight... but to be honest.. the haste spell then they get 1 extra attack cause to me they are attacking with thier claws and that is a weapon to them.. even if i take that one off... you still drop in rd 5.. (you will notice I added the hps when i took off 48 hps or you would of dropped in the first rd of combat) Edit => ask the elders untill i get something from them the extra attack stands and i won't have to edit it again till then...
templer10 05-07-07, 05:24 PM	A creature making a melee attack with a natural weapon is considered armed I edited the fight... but to be honest.. the haste spell then they get 1 extra attack cause to me they are attacking with thier claws and that is a weapon to them.. even if i take that one off... you still drop in rd 5.. (you will notice I added the hps when i took off 48 hps or you would of dropped in the first rd of combat) Edit => ask the elders untill i get something from them the extra attack stands and i won't have to edit it again till then... na- i wont bother- i dont have a chance really since realisicly with the DRi need to hit with 2 or 3 attacks to win, but please do take a look in that fight from last week it's a lot more importent to me - and there is nothing contovorsial there - just a simple error on your part. btw- i checked with MWB- and fightes can have their results changed even after the deadline is over and pairings rolled. (and fight not being extented).
TheMagister 05-07-07, 06:01 PM	:blink: I won? {looks again} :twitch: That says I won. {stares} I won?!! :eek: {faints}
TelinArtho 05-07-07, 06:09 PM	HEY! Wait until I am Done with the fight before reading the results please... ... ... But yeah - you won. Congrats. It was DARN close at the end with the rolls everyone was getting...
McJarvis 05-07-07, 06:13 PM	:blink: I won? {looks again} :twitch: That says I won. {stares} I won?!! :eek: {faints} Don't act too surprised. I mean, you _are_ TM after all :)
TheMagister 05-07-07, 06:16 PM	Oh, go soak your head. :P The dice won that for me and we all know it -- I had very little to do with it.
templer10 05-07-07, 06:22 PM	Oh, go soak your head. :P The dice won that for me and we all know it -- I had very little to do with it. you definently had some dice mojo in that fight.
Rauul 05-07-07, 06:23 PM	Vallgar the Unhinged vs. Mohmat Iptomor : ECL 3 [Arena] can be seen here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12326302&postcount=839) I acually used a Surrender clause in the tactics... mainly because it fit.. blindness at 130ft sucks!
Rauul 05-07-07, 06:51 PM	Elrick Flamebrother (templer10) vs. Le Petit Guepe (Horatius) : ECL 5 [Plains] is here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12220549&postcount=812)... this is from last week, there was a change in winners.. All i am gonna say is that druids... you really need a page linked for Augmented summons with SNA 1-9, and a sblock for your Wildshape or something.. As a Pitlord... i can't say No druid fights.. and thats a good thing.. for you..
templer10 05-07-07, 06:57 PM	Elrick Flamebrother (templer10) vs. Le Petit Guepe (Horatius) : ECL 5 [Plains] is here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12220549&postcount=812)... this is from last week, there was a change in winners.. All i am gonna say is that druids... you really need a page linked for Augmented summons with SNA 1-9, and a sblock for your Wildshape or something.. As a Pitlord... i can't say No druid fights.. and thats a good thing.. for you.. TY very much for the edit- i will in the future include links to augmented summoning summons in tactics.
Rauul 05-07-07, 06:59 PM	TY very much for the edit- i will in the future include links to augmented summoning summons in tactics. Why not just put them on your charater sheet.. MWB and telin have them listed somewhere for all of the SNA spells.. just put the link on your charater sheet.. And DON'T FORGET YOUR WILDSHAPE SBLOCK
templer10 05-07-07, 07:02 PM	Why not just put them on your charater sheet.. MWB and telin have them listed somewhere for all of the SNA spells.. just put the link on your charater sheet.. And DON'T FORGET YOUR WILDSHAPE SBLOCK yea yea- i will.
MitzaVolchenko 05-07-07, 10:40 PM	Oh, go soak your head. :P The dice won that for me and we all know it -- I had very little to do with it. Now to decide whether to try to go back and unedit Zwei or just retire her :)
Zevox 05-07-07, 10:55 PM	HEY! Wait until I am Done with the fight before reading the results please... ... ... But yeah - you won. Congrats. It was DARN close at the end with the rolls everyone was getting... Damn. No luck whatsoever for Arden, but tons of it for Rubicanti (how many 20s did Rubi get? *shakes his head*). Though it looks like I underestimated his AC too, which made the choice to use expertise cost me more than I expected. Very well, at least I wasn't last, which is always my real goal in those. Rubicanti just better hope we never meet 1-on-1, or he'll get a taste of revenge he won't like :devil: . Zevox
templer10 05-07-07, 11:08 PM	Damn. No luck whatsoever for Arden, but tons of it for Rubicanti (how many 20s did Rubi get? *shakes his head*). Though it looks like I underestimated his AC too, which made the choice to use expertise cost me more than I expected. Very well, at least I wasn't last, which is always my real goal in those. Rubicanti just better hope we never meet 1-on-1, or he'll get a taste of revenge he won't like :devil: . Zevox i wouldnt mind a rematch either with either of my ECL 6 chars- especially my druid - who just leveld in time to go nova with 14 SL's on some poor.... (in anything but the sewers anyway). on another note- zevox - will you be doing the lord lorian fight tommarow?
Macbrea 05-07-07, 11:09 PM	Well, corrupter vs nymph is done.
Zevox 05-07-07, 11:12 PM	on another note- zevox - will you be doing the lord lorian fight tommarow? Presuming no one has taken it by then, you bet. I've been unable to pitlord for seven or eight months now, its time I start helping out with that again. (And besides, I've got a whole list of credit-costing things I want to get, starting with activating a new character with a UA variant, so I need to start building up some of those :) .) Zevox
Rauul 05-07-07, 11:13 PM	Well, corrupter vs nymph is done. thanks... time to craft..
templer10 05-07-07, 11:20 PM	Presuming no one has taken it by then, you bet. I've been unable to pitlord for seven or eight months now, its time I start helping out with that again. (And besides, I've got a whole list of credit-costing things I want to get, starting with activating a new character with a UA variant, so I need to start building up some of those :) .) Zevox then you found a faily easy fight i think since from what i read in teh tactics posted the other guy totally didnt plan for a levitate/balcony strategy so i dont expext 2 much trouble unless the dice gets really insane.
Zevox 05-07-07, 11:34 PM	the ecl 5 FFA is done and here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12310831&postcount=835) the suprise result is the littlellest cleric of them won with an inflict spell of all things.... anyone know how to do rewards in 4 way FFA when someone had a light warhorse as an ally? I can't complain... dice decided that one as well. Not my week with those. Still, second place is pretty good. Rewards are just like winning a normal fight, which is good enough for me. Now, I have to hope I don't regret using both of my scrolls of shield in this fight when next week's match comes up. Zevox
Erithmu 05-08-07, 01:03 AM	Now to decide whether to try to go back and unedit Zwei or just retire her :) 22819 - 1800xp = 21019 ... still the same level ... just different cash. I vote the minor edit.
Rauul 05-08-07, 01:58 AM	As i seem to be caught up on my fights and 2 of my charaters ready for Wensdays (one crafting 1 on a miniquest to kill a person to watch them die) if there is 1-2 matchs that will be late and you need a hand... gimme a PM or post here.. I prefer ecl 3-5 but can do about any (No IMT)
Malither76 05-08-07, 02:14 AM	Tagg vs 2 apes is up Lucky Rolls decided this one fight
Eluria 05-08-07, 06:18 AM	Vallgar the Unhinged vs. Mohmat Iptomor : ECL 3 [Arena] can be seen here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12326302&postcount=839) I acually used a Surrender clause in the tactics... mainly because it fit.. blindness at 130ft sucks! Thanks for the fight Rauul; one quick request- Vallgar asks to start off at the back from center square, not the front center square. This seems like it makes a difference because I don't think he can close to Blindness range right away, one extra round would allow Mohmat to buff more; since you didn't link rolls, I don't know if having the extra +2 to saves from Protect vs. Evil will make a difference. Can you either link the rolls or take this altered movement into account? It really shouldn't take long. Thanks.
Rauul 05-08-07, 06:22 AM	Thanks for the fight Rauul; one quick request- Vallgar asks to start off at the back from center square, not the front center square. This seems like it makes a difference because I don't think he can close to Blindness range right away, one extra round would allow Mohmat to buff more; since you didn't link rolls, I don't know if having the extra +2 to saves from Protect vs. Evil will make a difference. Can you either link the rolls or take this altered movement into account? It really shouldn't take long. Thanks. Opps forgot to link the rolls, but he wanted to start 1 back from the front with his undead in front of him... Linking the rolls now.. edit=> rolls linked... you rolled a 3 (another +10 you would of passed)
Sjiggie 05-08-07, 07:00 AM	Okay work is killing me right now so I can't finish Darrgon vs Dunerunner before the deadline. I have did till round 4 now if someone can pick it up. Thanks
TheMagister 05-08-07, 07:35 AM	It may or may not be of any consolation to Zevox and Zwei and templer10, but: Rubicanti used 500 gp - worth of powerstones and 770 gp - worth of dorjes to win that FFA. My net gp gain was only +2730 gp. AND it took me 4 weeks to get THAT. :( TM
templer10 05-08-07, 07:43 AM	Okay work is killing me right now so I can't finish Darrgon vs Dunerunner before the deadline. I have did till round 4 now if someone can pick it up. Thanks Ill pick it up - just need to go see heroes first....
templer10 05-08-07, 10:27 AM	dunerunner VS darrgon is done and here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12333424&postcount=843) - predictable result really.
Horatius 05-08-07, 11:18 AM	@templer10: Still a couple of things to clean up in the FFA, please. Since Mithos can't gain cover from the grate and his horse at the same time, LPG should hit with his bow in rounds 34 and 40. That gives an additional 2d6+10 dmg (1d6+16 if you keep the 6 from rnd 34), which might save LPG some spell levels and a scroll of shield. Also, in rounds 45-46, LPG can hold the charge on the inflict spell, meaning he doesn't need to cast again. We also need arrow recovery counts, and I think the rewards are off, since both Bulgar and Mithos had a CR1 ally.
Zevox 05-08-07, 11:21 AM	It may or may not be of any consolation to Zevox and Zwei and templer10, but: Rubicanti used 500 gp - worth of powerstones and 770 gp - worth of dorjes to win that FFA. My net gp gain was only +2730 gp. AND it took me 4 weeks to get THAT. :( TM Ah yes, thats nice to see. Arden only used one 150 gp Powerstone, 90 gp worth of dorje, and .25 gp worth of arrows. One of my goals with him is to minimize my expendable usage, and it looks like its working :D . Zevox
templer10 05-08-07, 11:23 AM	@templer10: Still a couple of things to clean up in the FFA, please. Since Mithos can't gain cover from the grate and his horse at the same time, LPG should hit with his bow in rounds 34 and 40. That gives an additional 2d6+10 dmg (1d6+16 if you keep the 6 from rnd 34), which might save LPG some spell levels and a scroll of shield. Also, in rounds 45-46, LPG can hold the charge on the inflict spell, meaning he doesn't need to cast again. We also need arrow recovery counts, and I think the rewards are off, since both Bulgar and Mithos had a CR1 ally. Bulag didnt have an alley this fight- ill do teh dmg roll but if it does kill outright i wont bother to edit. EDIT- ill do the edit for SL's ill do arrow recovery - it's just a pain in the butt to count all the arrows sigh.
templer10 05-08-07, 11:36 AM	arrow recovery and edit on SL's for LPG done, now where's that lord lorian fight.....:P
Maraxus 05-08-07, 11:38 AM	Matthis III (waywreth) => Qwogi (Eluria) => Enoch (Salrantol) ...is finally up. Was a nice fight In the end I suddenly realised that after the "invisibility" contingency in Salrantol's tactic, I did not go back to the buffing part (as I better had) but directly into the attacking part. I hope nobody thinks this little mistake requires a rerun, it would likely not chance anything important (therfor: in the result) however with that lot of movement involved it would do a lot of work.
TelinArtho 05-08-07, 12:08 PM	Valen Sky (Hirumajoe) vs 4 Cloakers (Unknown Monsters) is up. Just remember - all he needed was to not roll a natural one on a save...
hogarth 05-08-07, 12:14 PM	Valen Sky (Hirumajoe) vs 4 Cloakers (Unknown Monsters) is up. Just remember - all he needed was to not roll a natural one on a save... Cloakers are able to handle items with their "wingflaps"? And they can wear amulets and cloaks despite having no necks? That's slicing the baloney a little thin, but it's your decision as pitlord, I guess.
TelinArtho 05-08-07, 12:21 PM	Well, I guess maybe not. Not sure really. Of course, it wouldn't have made a difference in the end since the AC bonus only made a difference in a few hits. Just for posterity, I checked back and it would've made 2 misses hits and the critical confirmed. This would've netted an additional 38 damage - which is 1 shy of taking down the cloaker before the saving throw is failed. The Potion of Eagle's splendor of course proved useless.
McJarvis 05-08-07, 12:41 PM	Maya vs Durin just finished up. Both gladiators seemed to be of similar mind in terms of the archery contest.
Salrantol 05-08-07, 01:07 PM	Enjoy the view of combat as those two fight it out since they have no way to detect invisibility.looking for see invisibility scrolls on a cleric should not be necessary.Thanks, I got good laughs out of both of those lines. I kinda hate to benefit from someone missing an expendable on my sheet, but it happens. Plus, Enoch was designed to do unclerically things, so....Anyway, good show about what it means to be a CoDzilla.Thank you very much.
Zevox 05-08-07, 02:17 PM	Lord Lorian vs Zerth Cenobite is done. Heres a little outtake from one participant's rolls to show you just how one-sided it was: d20: 7 rolls, 4.1 average Wow, is all I can say. Zevox
templer10 05-08-07, 02:21 PM	Lord Lorian vs Zerth Cenobite is done. Heres a little outtake from one participant's rolls to show you just how one-sided it was: d20: 7 rolls, 4.1 average Wow, is all I can say. Zevox hey - i got a 8.5 avrage- on the other hand - i needed 3 to hit... also - please edit in poilitical carerr for +20% xp/gp.
Hirumajoe 05-08-07, 02:25 PM	Valen Sky (Hirumajoe) vs 4 Cloakers (Unknown Monsters) is up. Just remember - all he needed was to not roll a natural one on a save... Well, I can at least firmly say that this fight was lost due to luck. :) Anyways, thanks for the run. And even if Valen had killed the first one before it got close, the save would still have applied to the next one that got within 30'. Edit: Wait a sec - touchsight doesn't do anything to Mirror Images?
Zevox 05-08-07, 02:28 PM	hey - i got a 8.5 avrage- on the other hand - i needed 3 to hit... also - please edit in poilitical carerr for +20% xp/gp. And only a 2 with PBS. Done. I haven't pitlorded since the packages were implemented, so I'm bound to miss things like that. Though it would be nice if a reminder about it were your tactics, incidentally. Zevox
TelinArtho 05-08-07, 02:32 PM	Well, I can at least firmly say that this fight was lost due to luck. :) Anyways, thanks for the run. And even if Valen had killed the first one before it got close, the save would still have applied to the next one that got within 30'. Edit: Wait a sec - touchsight doesn't do anything to Mirror Images? Nope. Touchsight removes effects of concealment, invisibility and darkness - mirror image is none of those.
Hirumajoe 05-08-07, 02:33 PM	Nope. Touchsight removes effects of concealment, invisibility and darkness - mirror image is none of those. Oh... I guess I needed to explicitly state to close my eyes in case of mirror images at the time of firing? Since touchsight pinpoints and negates concealment? My bad then. I'll remember for next time. Edit: Why is it I always seem to forget one minor but important detail each time I do tactics. Forgeting to list dodge buddies or healing contingencies and so forth... Ah well.
Erithmu 05-08-07, 02:38 PM	Ilendil vs Gradak = up hide and go seek with very poor hiding skills
Hirumajoe 05-08-07, 02:48 PM	@Telin: Found one error. The unnerve effect only forces a save after more than 6 rounds of listening (i.e. 7 or more) consecutive rounds. If he started listening after his action in round 8, he has listened for a full 7 rounds after his action in round 15. I.e. After Valen in the 8th to after Valen in the 9th round is 1 full round After 9 to After 10 is 2nd round ... After 14 to After 15 is full 7 rounds. He gets 2 more rounds of shooting before the saving throw I think, and at least one if my math is off by 1.
TelinArtho 05-08-07, 02:57 PM	Well, I'm not quite sure that we actually spotted each other. According to positions, we were 80ft away from each other at the closest... meaning the penalties for spotting/listening should've been doubled what you have marked in the roller. However, I don't think its going to require edits - I'm just not happy with the way Ilendil is performing... I think he needs to go back to the drawing board (again...).
TelinArtho 05-08-07, 03:03 PM	@Telin: Found one error. The unnerve effect only forces a save after more than 6 rounds of listening (i.e. 7 or more) consecutive rounds. If he started listening after his action in round 8, he has listened for a full 7 rounds after his action in round 15. I.e. After Valen in the 8th to after Valen in the 9th round is 1 full round After 9 to After 10 is 2nd round ... After 14 to After 15 is full 7 rounds. He gets 2 more rounds of shooting before the saving throw I think, and at least one if my math is off by 1. Round 8,9,10,11,12,13 = 6 rounds. Count by the actions the cloaker takes in rounds 8-13 = 6. So 1 more round at 14. Rolls; 20,17,25 vs AC19+3+2, 1 hit; Dmg 1d8+3+2+1-2=9. The only way that is enough to take the cloaker down is if you can get the use of the potions ruled out, a point I'm not sold on.
Hirumajoe 05-08-07, 03:09 PM	Round 8,9,10,11,12,13 = 6 rounds. Count by the actions the cloaker takes in rounds 8-13 = 6. So 1 more round at 14. Rolls; 20,17,25 vs AC19+3+2, 1 hit; Dmg 1d8+3+2+1-2=9. The only way that is enough to take the cloaker down is if you can get the use of the potions ruled out, a point I'm not sold on. Fair enough. I'm not totally sure on the potions either. Although, if they can use potions, does that mean they can use weapons? If so, I may have to dump a few more points into Knowledge: Dungeoneering. Metamorphosizing into a Cloaker with those (Ex) attacks and using a bow and/or greatsword could be nice. Out of curiosity, what is the usual criterion on determining if a creature can use a potion and/or equipment it self? I know we don't allow horses and intelligent mounts to use potions themselves, but how is that determined?
TelinArtho 05-08-07, 03:20 PM	Well it is certainly up for discussion on a creature's ability to a) hold an item b) hold an item to bring it to its mouth c) wield a weapon. I would say it is fairly easy for something as flexible as a cloaker to do both a and b, but I would not say c because wielding it requires flexibility and technique. A horse for example could not hold something by its hoof, nor could it drink something if it were able to hold it. An ape, could do all 3, assuming it had proper training. At the moment it is a judgement call. I used what I remembered from someone else fighting cloakers to use the potions here - so I'm not the first to have done it. I don't remember who's fight it was - so it is entirely possible that I am mis-remembering though. That said - I still think it could do enough to hold and drink a potion.
MindWandererB 05-08-07, 03:26 PM	Maya vs Durin just finished up. Both gladiators seemed to be of similar mind in terms of the archery contest.Well, that's a little hard to know, seeing as how you haven't posted either set of tactics! Edit: Also, Durin's rewards are wrong. You forgot to reward him for Maya's allies. He should get 712 XP, 790 gp.
Hirumajoe 05-08-07, 03:27 PM	Well it is certainly up for discussion on a creature's ability to a) hold an item b) hold an item to bring it to its mouth c) wield a weapon. I would say it is fairly easy for something as flexible as a cloaker to do both a and b, but I would not say c because wielding it requires flexibility and technique. Technique might be the wrong word you're looking for. That implies to me simply the ability to learn how to do so. With an intelligence of 14 and a Wis 15, it should be able to learn how to do so. Its certainly strong enough to pick a sword up. Similarly, a character polymorphed into an Ape is going to be able to wield any weapon they already know how to wield. If you're flexible enough to wrap around a bottle and pull the top off, why can't you wrap the same appendage around a dagger's handle? Clearly you have to have enough range of motion to go from where ever the potion is stored to your mouth, which seems like it should be enough range of motion to throw or wield a dagger.
hogarth 05-08-07, 03:31 PM	Out of curiosity, what is the usual criterion on determining if a creature can use a potion and/or equipment it self? I know we don't allow horses and intelligent mounts to use potions themselves, but how is that determined? If a cloaker (that's basically a flying manta ray) can hold a potion with its flubbery, pancake-like body and yet a hawk familiar can't manage to point a wand with its talons, then that's just plain nuts!
TelinArtho 05-08-07, 03:33 PM	This is a discussion that was started a while back. Essentially - the ruling at the time was that while some creatures might have appendages - not all of those appendages are suitable for wielding weapons. This discussion resulted in the following: Dragons cannot use bows but they can use wands, scrolls and potions. Its a big discussion - and is certainly bigger than can be accomplished in the next day or two.
Hirumajoe 05-08-07, 03:35 PM	This is a discussion that was started a while back. Essentially - the ruling at the time was that while some creatures might have appendages - not all of those appendages are suitable for wielding weapons. This discussion resulted in the following: Dragons cannot use bows but they can use wands, scrolls and potions. Its a big discussion - and is certainly bigger than can be accomplished in the next day or two. Fair enough. I'll just let the loss stand. Its my own fault anyways for not realizing I needed to close my eyes to win. (Since that would have eliminated the mirror images and with touchsight up, no total concealment... - I thought it just did that automatically.) However, it would be nice to flesh the discussion out more in the approriate thread.
TelinArtho 05-08-07, 05:21 PM	It may or may not be of any consolation to Zevox and Zwei and templer10, but: Rubicanti used 500 gp - worth of powerstones and 770 gp - worth of dorjes to win that FFA. My net gp gain was only +2730 gp. AND it took me 4 weeks to get THAT. :( TM So with all of those nice 20s in that fight - can you stop cursing my dice now TM? (and yes I know - that means I still suffer cursing from the rest of the community...)
Malither76 05-08-07, 05:31 PM	Balrog vs Relanex is up here
MindWandererB 05-08-07, 05:41 PM	Balrog vs Relanex is up here When you improvise so heavily, you might want to explain why! It's clear that you forewent Balrog's tactics because he was afraid of Mirror Image, whoch was never used... but even still, that was quite an improvization. Macbrea has every right to complain about that one. Edit: Although, Macbrea did much the same thing to me in the Rubicanti vs. Maya fight, where he decided that it was okay to abandon TM's tactics in favor of something that would work better. So, he might not complain after all.
Malither76 05-08-07, 05:51 PM	I moved Balrog how Marxus wanted me too, which took him away from the tower, upon spotting each other, Balrog would have to moved back down and started to climb, which would have made him flatfooted for the reflex saves until he got to the top, he would then have to climb again and reach the top and soak up another spell, while the wizard would move away to stay at range. The tactic was pretty much giving up. I have no problem changing it I just don't like to run characters that have reached a level of experience that poorly.
Rauul 05-08-07, 06:20 PM	Balrog vs Relanex is up here Not that it will make much difference.. But Relanex casts all evocation spells at level 9..
Sjiggie 05-08-07, 06:35 PM	Lord Lorian vs Zerth Cenobite is done. Heres a little outtake from one participant's rolls to show you just how one-sided it was: d20: 7 rolls, 4.1 average Wow, is all I can say. Zevox Wow that is just bad dice mojo:eek: @Templer10 thanks for the pick up just got back from work
Macbrea 05-08-07, 06:42 PM	I am fine with it.. I forgot I even have wand. :P Oh, well...
templer10 05-08-07, 06:44 PM	Wow that is just bad dice mojo:eek: @Templer10 thanks for the pick up just got back from work NP- and i needed 2 or 3 on the dice against you to hit- so dont feel bad lol.
templer10 05-08-07, 06:46 PM	btw- is there another fight taht needs picking up? i got time today/tommarow and i got a ecl 6 wilder on the pipline i need credits for.
Maraxus 05-08-07, 07:02 PM	I moved Balrog how Marxus wanted me too, which took him away from the tower, upon spotting each other, Balrog would have to moved back down and started to climb, which would have made him flatfooted for the reflex saves until he got to the top, he would then have to climb again and reach the top and soak up another spell, while the wizard would move away to stay at range. The tactic was pretty much giving up. I have no problem changing it I just don't like to run characters that have reached a level of experience that poorly. My plan bad? I have made a comic of the plan, as it was supposed to work... http://freenet-homepage.de/maraxus/masterplan.jpg Cool, wasn't it? But anyway, I admit, that with only the fact, that Relanex moved out in round 2 allready, would mean, that I get one round of getting blasted at the wall, which is not really good, especially since - without mirror image -, shooting with the bow has a good chance of success.
Sjiggie 05-08-07, 07:51 PM	I just saw that Gradak's powerrating dropped to 919 but he won his only fight he ever fought so far so his powerrating should be higher right? -Sjiggie
MindWandererB 05-09-07, 12:17 AM	I just saw that Gradak's powerrating dropped to 919 but he won his only fight he ever fought so far so his powerrating should be higher right? -Sjiggie Fixed.