Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Caterane 06-01-06, 07:17 PM	As said, we should test out some inter-league fights and some have volunteered. This thread is to see who is concretely interested in being a guinea pig. If so, post it here till sunday and I'll set up some improvised pairings on monday, June 3. Pitlords gain the standard credits for running a multiplayer fight (which is 2°). The fight doesn't count so you won't lose anything. It will nethertheless be played according to the rules. Map is the Arena. Fights should be posted in the Inter-League Test Fights (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=649072) thread, not in the Battles thread. Who knows, maybe the Wizos have to delay the board upgrade once again. Volunteers Pitlords: - DSugui <three> II = 4° - Iced <one> I = 2° - King Uther <two> II = 4° - Mindwanderer <three> III = 6° - Salrantol <one> I = 2° - Stormwind <three> IIII = 8° - Zevox <two> II =4° Characters: ECL 3: Lantash the Ancient (bluemage55) ECL 3: Solan the Righteous (Iced) ECL 3: Oriris (Iced) ECL 3: Silis (Mindwanderer) ECL 3: Ceilia Durrol (Zevox) ECL 4: Ba'al of the Grave (Book5) ECL 4: Enoch the Prophet (Salrantol) ECL 4: Valek Usher (DSugui) ECL 4: Istima Telarc (Zevox) ECL 4: Bolrak (Mindwanderer) ECL 5: Rianna Dreambinder (Ariel23) ECL 5: Eraca Moralta (Zevox) ECL 5: Pestilence (NiQil) ECL 5: Famine (NiQil) ECL 5: Death (NiQil) ECL 5: War (NiQil) ECL 5: Meinrad Manyfisted (Salrantol) ECL 5: Little Daisy (DSugui) ECL 5: Sir Alboreth (Zevox) ECL 5: Sunstroke (Mindwanderer) ECL 6: Dronnar (DSugui) ECL 6: Alagar (King Uther) ECL 6: Zero (Mindwanderer) ECL 7: Archdevil Asran (Zevox) ECL 7: Evaine (Ariel23) ECL 7: Aeryll (Mindwanderer) ECL 7: Perius (Ravashack) ECL 8: Gatekeeper (Iced) ECL 8: Anixx Warbringer (Iced) ECL 9: Sdentch (TheMagister) ECL 9: Validi Reborn (Iced) ECL 9: Cyra Val (Stormwind) ECL10: Varia (Sindorin) ECL10: Virgo (King Uther) TEST PAIRINGS ECL+ECL vs ECL+2 Pairings: Lantash (bluemage55) & Solan (Iced) vs. ECL 5: Rianna (Ariel23) : DSugui [3+3 vs. 5] Ba'al (Book5) & Enoch (Salrantol) vs. Dronnar (DSugui) : Mindwanderer [4+4 vs. 6] Little Daisy (DSugui) & Eraca (Zevox) vs. Aeryll (Mindwanderer) : Salrantol [5+5 vs. 7] War (NiQil) & Sunstroke (Mindwanderer) vs. Archdevil Asran (Zevox) : DSugui [5+5 vs. 7] Evaine (Ariel23) & Perius (Ravashack) vs. Validi Reborn (Iced) : MindwandererB [7+7 vs. 9] Gatekeeper (Iced) & Anixx (Iced) vs. Virgo (King Uther) : Stormwind [8+8 vs. 10] Archdevil Asran (Zevox) & Aeryll (Mindwanderer) vs. Sdentch (TheMagister) : King Uther [7+7 vs. 9] ECL+ECL+ECL vs ECL+3 Pairings: Oriris (Iced) & Silis (Mindwanderer) & Ceilia (Zevox) vs. Dronnar (DSugui) : King Uther [3+3+3 vs. 6] Valek (DSugui) & Istima (Zevox) & Bolrak (Mindwanderer) vs. Evaine (Ariel23) : Stormwind [4+4+4 vs. 7] Rianna (Ariel23) & Death (NiQil) & Sir Alboreth (Zevox) vs. Gatekeeper (Iced) : Stormwind [5+5+5 vs. 8] Dronnar (DSugui) & Alagar (King Uther) & Zero (Mindwanderer) vs. Cyra Val (Stormwind) : Iced [6+6+6 vs. 9] Evaine (Ariel23) & Perius (Ravashack) & Aeryll (Mindwanderer) vs. Virgo (King Uther) : Zevox [7+7+7 vs. 10] Special Pairings: Famine (NiQil) & Meinrad (Salrantol) vs. Zero (Mindwanderer) : Zevox [4+4 vs. 5] Sdentch (TheMagister) & Cyra Val (Stormwind) vs. Varia (Sindorin) : MindwandererB [9+9 vs. 10] Dronnar (DSugui) & Alagar (King Uther) & Zero (Mindwanderer) vs. Varia (Sindorin) : Stormwind [6+6+6 vs. 10]
TheMagister 06-01-06, 07:21 PM	Sdentch (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6966406) is an average melee-type build. Set her up with two melee-type ECL 7s and we'll see what we have. Sdentch will be nice and leave Hauber out of the picture. ;) TM
Caterane 06-01-06, 07:28 PM	I will reserve the right to pick the combination of ECLs. The basic one will be ECL+ECL vs. ECL+2 but I might add some other combos.
MindWandererB 06-01-06, 07:31 PM	I formally announce my guinea pigginess, both as pitlord and player. I have characters in each ECL from 3 to 7: ∙ECL 3: Silis, the rogue/diviner: Desiged for campaigns; I'd have to prepare slightly different spells to even make him viable in the arena, but he might not be horrible. ·ECL 4: Bolrak, the retired duergar monk: Crappy anti-air capacity, which is why I retired him. Like with all duergar, the 3FC will hurt him badly, so take anything you learn without it with a grain of salt. ∙ECL 5: Sunstroke, the half-giant monk/psiwar: Solid character. Good to team up with another ECL 5 to take on an ECL 7, or to take on two ECL 3's. I'd prefer some sort of EYE/PSI line up so I can write a story for it--him and an EYE vs. a PSI, or him and another PSI vs. an EYE, would be my ideals. ∙ECL 6: Zero, the white dragon archer. Probably not a good character to choose for a team battle, as he has a very unique and independent fighting style. ∙ECL 7: Aerryl, the bat-mounted druid: Another solid character all around, good to team up with another ECL 7 to take on an ECL 9, or to handle two ECL 5's. She's Great Renown, though, so she might not be the fairest test. Edit: Or whatever, per Cat's post above.
TheMagister 06-01-06, 07:33 PM	I will reserve the right to pick the combination of ECLs. The basic one will be ECL+ECL vs. ECL+2 but I might add some other combos. {Shrug} Whatever you think is best. It's all for fun and research, anyhow. TM
NiQil 06-01-06, 07:55 PM	I'll throw my Horsemen into the fray...all are at ECL 5. All are good at both melee and range...and all are great because I run them :D LOL. I'm still moving, so my posting is still sporadic, but I should be on enough to work with this, though I can't run any of the fights for this reason..tactics shouldn't be a problem, however. I can run two of them vs an ECL 7 (or have them paired up with another ECL 5 vs an ECL 7, though it would be easier on me if two of them were paired together in this circumstance), or I can run one of them vs 2 ECL 3's.
Book5 06-01-06, 08:14 PM	Ba'al is up for a fight - (gimie two shakes to edit him.. wait did I do that alread?) Tan is too.. if ya wan'im! :D As far as testing the system - I could run a fight as well. Since were trying to break things, "before it matters" :D Im sure I can help! ;)
Sindorin 06-01-06, 08:28 PM	Va'ria would like to see how broken her DC 26 Feeblemind is. If you have a build that you think can take her down, let me know. That, or I wouldn't mind having her craft as she is set to do.
Erithmu 06-01-06, 08:53 PM	I would do stuff but I have finals this comming week, I do have internet now since moving so I might be able to pitlord a later fight.
Salrantol 06-01-06, 09:33 PM	I would be willing and, I think, able to run one fight. I also submit Enoch the Prophet [ECL 4] and Meinrad the Many-Fisted [ECL 5] for the interleague fights.
Traevanon 06-01-06, 09:58 PM	I got to thinking about volunteering, and while I might be able to arrange it, it might be best to bow out this time. I have out-of-town training from Monday through Thursday. If you want to use Khabil Barukh (ECL3) and just let my ally make tactics for both of us that is fine. My prediction is that wealth and stats above NPC guidelines could skew the matches slightly in favor of the weaker pair in an ECL+ECL = ECL+2 match. Still it should be plenty accurate enough to use.
DSugui 06-01-06, 10:06 PM	My characters are at your disposal: Dronnar Darkjof [ECL 6]: Melee type, damage output. Little Daisy [ECL 5]: Druid. Can fight at range or in melee. Has a dog companion and an eagle ally. Valek Usher [ECL 4]: Mobile melee/ranged type. He was designed to fight in any kind of situation, but he was not as successful as I hoped. I can also pitlord fights. Two or three, maybe more if things are calm at work.
bluemage55 06-01-06, 10:08 PM	Lantash (ECL 3) volunteers to be a guinea pig. With 5 hp, this should be interesting. :D
Zevox 06-01-06, 11:28 PM	Eraca Moralta (ECL 5) would volunteer either as a partner or an opponent for lower-ECL foes. Shes probably my best character, skilled with bow, magic, and to a lesser degree melee. Fast (w/ Expeditious Retreat spell), versatile, not half bad at sneaking, and her only ally is her Cat familiar. Archdevil Asran (ECL 7) is also up for it, though I think he'd rather face lower-leveled foes than higher-leveled ones (that template has left his HP a bit low for facing stronger enemies). A warrior type with lots of built-in defenses, good damage output, and capable enough in both melee and range (though more so the former than the latter). He has two Furies (Dire Bats) for allies, primarily for melee and anti-air support and flushing out sneaks. Sir Alboreth (ECL 5) also volunteers, for either type of match, though hes better suited for teaming with another vs a higher-level foe I think. Melee type, big damage output and lots of HP. Istima Telarc (ECL 4) is my last submission. A mounted Goblin Psionicist. Fast, good with ranged powers and not half bad with his crossbow when those run out. More HP than most casters due to his 16 con too. I'm also open to pitlord matches, though not more than one at a time preferably. I'd like to use this time off to write that story for this month's contest. If theres a shortage of pitlord volunteers though I'll take two. Zevox
Iced 06-01-06, 11:52 PM	I can enter: Solan (EL3) Mounted Fighter Build Osiris (EL3) Mounted Necromancer Gatekeeper (EL8) Hack and Slash Warrior Anixx (EL8) Melee-Based Cleric Validi (EL9) In-Your-Face speed grappler I can run a fight also.
Ariel23 06-02-06, 12:24 AM	I will be available to write tactics for ECL 5 Riana (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8642366&postcount=719) or ECL 7 Evaine (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7991019&postcount=571). I will participate in anything, experimental or not. :)
King Uther 06-02-06, 02:27 AM	Virgo and Alagar could be tested. I am itching to use Virgo's new deepcrystal power-storing armor spikes.
Stormwind 06-02-06, 05:35 AM	Cyra (ECL9) will happily participate and fight anyone. I will volunteer to pitlord 1-2 fights. If pitlords are in really short supply, I might take 3. Storm
Stormwind 06-02-06, 06:53 AM	Interesting. It seems that about 1/3 of the characters so far are ECL5. Currently we have 32 characters, 10 of which are ECL5. We also have only enough pitlords for 8 fights, which means that we are slightly short. @Cat: You might want to split NiQil's "The four horsemen" into the four characters that they are as it is a bit unclear as it is. Thats is: ECL 5: The four Horsemen (NiQil) should be: ECL 5: Pestilence (NiQil) ECL 5: Famine (NiQil) ECL 5: Death (NiQil) ECL 5: War (NiQil)
Zevox 06-02-06, 05:07 PM	If we need more ECL 3s, I'll add Ceilia Durrol to the volunteers. Mounted warrior-cleric with a preference for melee. P.S. @ Cat - Looks like you forgot me among the Pitlords. Seeing as we have so few volunteers in that regard, I'll take two. Zevox
Ravashack 06-02-06, 05:58 PM	I'd be willing to participate with Perius, but given the lack of pitlords I'd be just as willing to sit him out to make it easier on the pairings too.
King Uther 06-02-06, 07:47 PM	I can take 1-2 I'm sure.
MindWandererB 06-02-06, 11:47 PM	Sorry, I didn't clarify my pitlord volunteer status. Assuming the deadline is June 11, I can take three. Edit: I assume you meant Monday, June 5, not the 3rd. @Cat, please note that since there's no rewards, you can potentially use the same character twice. For instance, you could potentially have Anixx pull double-duty fighting two ECL 6's, and teaming up with Galagith to take on an ECL 10. It's particularly important, for the sake of the Iron Man tournament, to test out the higher ECL's at this.
Caterane 06-04-06, 09:18 AM	PAIRINGS DONE ECL+ECL vs ECL+2 Pairings: Lantash (bluemage55) & Solan (Iced) vs. ECL 5: Rianna (Ariel23) : DSugui [3+3 vs. 5] Ba'al (Book5) & Enoch (Salrantol) vs. Dronnar (DSugui) : Mindwanderer [4+4 vs. 6] Little Daisy (DSugui) & Sir Alboreth (Zevox) vs. Aeryll (Mindwanderer) : Salrantol [5+5 vs. 7] War (NiQil) & Sunstroke (Mindwanderer) vs. Archdevil Asran (Zevox) : DSugui [5+5 vs. 7] Evaine (Ariel23) & Perius (Ravashack) vs. Validi Reborn (Iced) : MindwandererB [7+7 vs. 9] Gatekeeper (Iced) & Anixx (Iced) vs. Virgo (King Uther) : Stormwind [8+8 vs. 10] Archdevil Asran (Zevox) & Aeryll (Mindwanderer) vs. Sdentch (TheMagister) : King Uther [7+7 vs. 9] ECL+ECL+ECL vs ECL+3 Pairings: Oriris (Iced) & Silis (Mindwanderer) & Ceilia (Zevox) vs. Dronnar (DSugui) : King Uther [3+3+3 vs. 6] Valek (DSugui) & Istima (Zevox) & Bolrak (Mindwanderer) vs. Evaine (Ariel23) : Stormwind [4+4+4 vs. 7] Rianna (Ariel23) & Death (NiQil) & Sir Alboreth (Zevox) vs. Gatekeeper (Iced) : Stormwind [5+5+5 vs. 8] Dronnar (DSugui) & Alagar (King Uther) & Zero (Mindwanderer) vs. Cyra Val (Stormwind) : Iced [6+6+6 vs. 9] Evaine (Ariel23) & Perius (Ravashack) & Aeryll (Mindwanderer) vs. Virgo (King Uther) : Zevox [7+7+7 vs. 10] Special Pairings: Famine (NiQil) & Meinrad (Salrantol) vs. Zero (Mindwanderer) : Zevox [4+4 vs. 5] Sdentch (TheMagister) & Cyra Val (Stormwind) vs. Varia (Sindorin) : MindwandererB [9+9 vs. 10] Dronnar (DSugui) & Alagar (King Uther) & Zero (Mindwanderer) vs. Varia (Sindorin) : Stormwind [6+6+6 vs. 10] Notes: These fights do not count. Pitlords receive 2° per fight run. Deadline for posting fights is June 13. There will be no negative credits but you'll lose your credits if you don't run it. All fights take place on the Arena Map and follow the standard coco rules for Battles of Gladius. All fights have to be posted in this thread according to the regular rules for posting fights (use sblocks please). Pitlords and Players have to write comments about their fights. We want to learn something from these battles. Players are encouraged to write good tactics even though there's nothing to gain for them. I want to thank all volunteers for doing this.
Salrantol 06-04-06, 09:42 AM	@Caterane: You have Meinrad correctly listed in the volunteers list as ECL 5, but paired as an ECL 4. @Book5, DSugui, & MindwandererB: Enoch is listed in the ECL 5 league in the roster, but he has not been updated to reflect the results of his most recent fight (after which he will level), so he is still an ECL 4, you'll just find him in the ECL 5 listings or here.
Stormwind 06-04-06, 01:52 PM	@Caterane: You've given me four fights instead of three, and you have assigned me credits for only three fights. I'll run all four, but it would be nice to get credits for four.
Sindorin 06-04-06, 02:01 PM	I would also like to thank the pitlords who volunteered to run these fights. If life was not so hectic I would still be pitlording, but due to time constraints I cannot stress myself with pitlording.
Ariel23 06-04-06, 05:51 PM	I'm not sure what kind of time line we're looking for here, so I will acknowledge my fights and add that this all looks like it will be fun. @ DSgui I'll have tactics for Riana fairly quickly, since that should be a relatively simple fight. Probably by 5 pm CST Monday @Stormwind Tactics for Evaine will take a bit longer since it's a 3 on 1. Also, I doubt all 3 of my opponents will get their individual/team tactics in that quickly. I predict Monday night or Tues afternoon. @both Send a pm (preferably an email) if you need them sooner. You can use my default tactics, too.
Zevox 06-04-06, 10:55 PM	I thought pairings weren't to be until Monday? *shrugs* Oh well, the sooner the better I suppose. Just one comment Cat: I noticed Sir Alboreth has two fights, whereas Eraca Moralta has none. As both are my characters and both are ECL 5, might it be possible for Eraca to take over for Alboreth in one or the other? I was rather looking forward to trying her here, since shes been my most successful character. @ DSugui - I'll send tactics for Asran tonight. A straight warrior fight shouldn't be overly hard, even with 5 creatures about the arena. @ My characters' allies - I'll PM some thoughts either tonight or tomorrow. This looks like it'll be fun. :) Zevox
Sindorin 06-05-06, 04:21 AM	Va'ria's tactics for both of her fights have been PM'd to MindwandererB and Stormwind.
MindWandererB 06-05-06, 04:40 AM	@Sindorin: Tactics received. @Pretty much everyone: Apparently, I'm involved in 12 of the 15 fights as either participant or pitlord, and with all the PMing back and forth about tactics, it's possible that my PM box will get full. If that happens, for these battles and these battles only, you may use my email address: MindWanderer, juno dot com.
Salrantol 06-05-06, 05:14 AM	@MindWandererB: Tactics received for Aerryl Nalladar.
Stormwind 06-05-06, 09:37 AM	@Ariel23: If you can get me tactics by Tuesday night that will be fine. @Sindorin: Tactics for Varia received. @All my gladiators: If you could send me tactics by Tuesday night at the latest, that would be appreciated.
Ariel23 06-05-06, 12:11 PM	@stormwind Tactics sent for Rianna + Death + Sir Alboreth vs Galagith Edit (same day): @DSugui Tactics sent for Lantash (bluemage55) & Solan (Iced) vs. ECL 5: Rianna (Ariel23)
Stormwind 06-05-06, 12:39 PM	@Iced, MindWandererB: Tactics for Cyra sent via PM @Ariel23: Tactics for Riana received @All my gladiators: I am waiting for tactics from the gladiators marked in red. If possible, please get them to me by Tuesday 9pm (GMT). Gatekeeper (Iced) & Anixx (Iced) vs. Virgo (King Uther) Valek (DSugui) & Istima (Zevox) & Bolrak (Mindwanderer) vs. Evaine (Ariel23) Rianna (Ariel23) & Death (NiQil) & Sir Alboreth (Zevox) vs. Gatekeeper (Iced) Dronnar (DSugui) & Alagar (King Uther) & Zero (Mindwanderer) vs. Varia (Sindorin)
Caterane 06-05-06, 03:41 PM	@Stormwind: Sorry, Thanks, and Done. @Zevox: Exchanged Alboreth in the fight with Daisy and Aerryl.
MindWandererB 06-05-06, 04:01 PM	@Cat: Hmm, I seem to be running three fights (as I requested), but only 4 credits have been assigned to me. @Stormwind: Tactics received. @Salrantol: I'll have to revise my tactics since Alboreth is now Eraca. Give me a little while. EDIT: @Salrantol: Updated tactics have been sent. That was a pretty darn good substitution; Aerryl's chances, while still pretty good, just got a lot worse. @Zevox: Tactics for Zero against Famine and Meinrad have been sent. You know the drill, although with a slight variation. Good luck and please don't kill me. I think I have begun discussions with all of my teammates regarding tactics. If I missed anyone, let me know.
Zevox 06-05-06, 11:36 PM	@ Cat - Thanks a lot! @ MWB - And thats part of the reason why I wanted to do that ;) . Anyway, since your PM box was full I sent you the response to your last message about one of our matches via e-mail. @ DSugui - I imagine you already got it, but tactics for Asran vs Sunstroke & War were sent via PM. @ King Uther - Tactics for Asran's part in Archdevil Asran & Aerryl Naladar vs Sdentch have been sent. Zevox
Zevox 06-06-06, 12:47 AM	@ Stormwind, NiQil, & Ariel23 - Tactics for Sir Alboreth and Death in the match vs Galagith have been PMed. Zevox
bluemage55 06-06-06, 02:26 AM	@DSugui: Tactics for Lantash sent via PM.
Iced 06-06-06, 02:33 AM	tactics for validi reborn and gatekeeper in their solo fights vs lower levels sent to mindwandererB and Stormwind received stormwind's sent tactics
MindWandererB 06-06-06, 02:42 AM	@Iced: Tactics received for Validi vs. Perius and Evaine. I also got tactics for Evaine against Validi, but I wasn't sure if I should expect separate tactics for Perius, or if what Ariel described was it. If that's it, I can start running that fight tomorrow. @King Uther: Aerryl's half of the Aerryl & Asran vs. Sdentch have been sent. @Stormwind: Team tactics for Valek, Istima, & Bolrak against Evaine have been sent. @DSugui: Team tactics for War and Sunstroke against Asran have been sent, so you should be good to go for that one. I think that's everything for now. I have to admit I'm starting to lose track of everything I have going on. If I seem to have forgotten someone, now or over the next week, please speak up!
Stormwind 06-06-06, 05:47 AM	@Iced: Tactics received for Gatekeeper vs Rianna & Death & Sir Alboreth @Zevox: Team tactics received for Death & Sir Alboreth. Tactics for Istima received from MindWanderer. @NiQil: Tactics for Death received from Zevox. @DSugui: Tactics for Valek received from MindWanderer. @Mindwanderer: Team tactics received for Bolrak, Valek & Istima. @Ariel23: Tactics received for Evaine vs Valek & Istima & Bolrak @All my gladiators: I am waiting for tactics from the gladiators marked in red. If possible, please get them to me by Tuesday 9pm (GMT). Gatekeeper (Iced) & Anixx (Iced) vs. Virgo (King Uther) Valek (DSugui) & Istima (Zevox) & Bolrak (Mindwanderer) vs. Evaine (Ariel23) Rianna (Ariel23) & Death (NiQil) & Sir Alboreth (Zevox) vs. Gatekeeper (Iced) Dronnar (DSugui) & Alagar (King Uther) & Zero (Mindwanderer) vs. Varia (Sindorin)
DSugui 06-06-06, 08:52 AM	Asran vs Sunstroke & War - all tactics received. Probably I'll have time to run it tomorrow night. Riana vs Lantash & Solan - missing Solan tactics.
Caterane 06-06-06, 09:00 AM	Just to prevent confusion and for clarity's sake, I've opened a new thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=649072) where you can post all Inter-League Fights.
DSugui 06-06-06, 09:30 AM	@MindWandererB: Tactics for Dronnar vs Ba'al and Enoch sent. And I could use a link to Silis, since she isn't in the roster. :D
Zevox 06-06-06, 01:45 PM	Since I forgot to confirm this before... @ Ariel23 - Tactics for Evaine's part in Evaine/Perius/Aerryl vs Virgo recieved. @ MindWandererB - Tactics for (resigned sigh) Zero vs Famine & Meinrad recieved. I get the feeling the pairingsmaker doesn't like me. @ The rest of my players - the sooner the tactics are in, the better. I'd like to run Evaine/Perius/Aerryl vs Virgo soon, since it'll be the easier fight. I'm open from now until friday, but I work much of the day saturday, so tactics today or tomorrow is best. Zevox
MindWandererB 06-06-06, 02:45 PM	@DSugui: Received. And there's a link to Silis in my sig. @Salrantol: I got some alterations to Enoch's expendable list, but no tactics. Here's my status. Tactics I still lack are in red. Got everything! Ba'al (Book5) & Enoch (Salrantol) vs. Dronnar (DSugui) [Ready!] Evaine (Ariel23) & Perius (Ravashack) vs. Validi Reborn (Iced) [Done!] Sdentch (TheMagister) & Cyra Val (Stormwind) vs. Varia (Sindorin) [Done!] And, largely for the sake of my own bookkeeping, here's the status on the fights that I'm in: Little Daisy (DSugui) & Eraca (Zevox) vs. Aeryll (Mindwanderer) : Salrantol War (NiQil) & Sunstroke (Mindwanderer) vs. Archdevil Asran (Zevox) : DSugui [Sent] Archdevil Asran (Zevox) & Aeryll (Mindwanderer) vs. Sdentch (TheMagister) : King Uther [Sent] Oriris (Iced) & Silis (Mindwanderer) & Ceilia (Zevox) vs. Dronnar (DSugui) : King Uther [Waiting for final confirmation] Valek (DSugui) & Istima (Zevox) & Bolrak (Mindwanderer) vs. Evaine (Ariel23) : Stormwind [Sent] Dronnar (DSugui) & Alagar (King Uther) & Zero (Mindwanderer) vs. Cyra Val (Stormwind) : Iced [No word from my partners] Evaine (Ariel23) & Perius (Ravashack) & Aeryll (Mindwanderer) vs. Virgo (King Uther) : Zevox [s][Whoops!] [Sent] Famine (NiQil) & Meinrad (Salrantol) vs. Zero (Mindwanderer) : Zevox [Sent] Dronnar (DSugui) & Alagar (King Uther) & Zero (Mindwanderer) vs. Varia (Sindorin) : Stormwind [No word from my partners] Those that I'm still missing, please get them to me--we're running short on time here. I'd like to have this done before the new boards come up. · Book and Salrantol, no hurry now--I've got plenty to work on until you get yours in. I will do the last fight tomorrow.
TheMagister 06-06-06, 04:04 PM	@MindwandererB - Sdentch's half of the Sdentch and Cyra vs. Va'ria sent! @King Uther - Sdentch's tactics sent! TM
Stormwind 06-06-06, 05:23 PM	@Iced: Tactics received for Gatekeeper & Anixx vs Virgo @All my gladiators: I am waiting for tactics from the gladiators marked in red. I am running the Valek & Istima & Bolrak vs Evaine fight at the moment and will move on to the others once I have finished it (probably in the order below). Valek (DSugui) & Istima (Zevox) & Bolrak (Mindwanderer) vs. Evaine (Ariel23) Rianna (Ariel23) & Death (NiQil) & Sir Alboreth (Zevox) vs. Gatekeeper (Iced) Gatekeeper (Iced) & Anixx (Iced) vs. Virgo (King Uther) Dronnar (DSugui) & Alagar (King Uther) & Zero (Mindwanderer) vs. Varia (Sindorin)
Salrantol 06-06-06, 05:43 PM	@MindwandererB: The boards drop every day for about 10 mins. at 5:10 AM Central time. I finished my tactics at 5:16 AM and had to leave for work by 5:25 AM, and with making a lunch and feeding the dogs, I didn't get it sent until this afternoon. That said, tactics for Enoch sent. @Zevox: I'll probably send tactics tomorrow morning for Meinrad. I didn't expect that pairing to stand, so I haven't put any thought into it. @DSgui & Zevox: Please get tactics to me by 4 AM CDT on Thursday, so I can start working on the fight then. @MindwandererB: Tactics for Aerryl Nalladar received yet again.
Ravashack 06-06-06, 07:36 PM	Both set of tactics have been sent now via PM. Thanks for being patient with me guys.
Zevox 06-07-06, 12:19 AM	@ Salrantol - Tactics for Eraca and Daisy (edit: and a quick addendum) have been PMed. @ MWB & Ravashack - Tactics for Aerryl and Perius have been recieved. I'm just waiting for Virgo on that one. Zevox
MindWandererB 06-07-06, 12:22 AM	All right, I have Evaine Dreamseeker (Ariel23) and Perius (Ravashack) vs. Validi Reborn (Iced) done. If this were a real fight, I would feel very uncomfortable about the way I handled it in some cases, but since it's not real there's no reason to edit it. It was quite exciting, one of the best I've ever run.
Iced 06-07-06, 01:53 AM	Now that Validi's been in for a tune-up i think i've got a better feel for the character. Thanks alot MindwandererB!
Sindorin 06-07-06, 02:51 AM	Yeah, nice work on that pc Iced.
Book5 06-07-06, 03:03 AM	@ Salrantol;MindWandererB - tactical information sent.
MindWandererB 06-07-06, 04:06 AM	Sdentch (TheMagister) and Cyra Val (Stormwind) vs. Va'ria Theladrais (Sindorin) is now also done. A weakness was seen and exploited to good effect.
Caterane 06-07-06, 05:54 AM	MW, I have to praise you for your fights. I like your frame very much and you do a great job in running these characters. Don't worry about your decisions; I would have done the same and many others surely too. Thumbsup! These first two fights were very balanced in the setup. I am very positive that we've found the right combination of ECLs but let's wait for the others. I'm especially looking forward to the 3 vs. 1 fights.
TheMagister 06-07-06, 07:20 AM	A eulogy for Mindwanderer ?? ;) A "eulogy" is what a certain picked person (usually a close friend or family member) says about you at your funeral. Do you know something we don't, Cat? Should we watch the news today? I shouldn't poke fun. I don't even know 1/4 of a second language (spanish...or more realistically, Texican [Texas/Mexican]). Still funny, though. :) TM
TheMagister 06-07-06, 07:37 AM	@Iced reg. Validi - Ew. Just...ew. @MWB reg. the fight - Thanks! That went well. @Sindorin reg. your tactics - :confused: What were you thinking? I'm really asking in earnest here and not being sarcastic. Why on EARTH would you waste a feeblemind spell on Sdentch? Hold person, hideous laughter, or (MUCH better) dominate person, all with equally failable Will saves, would have been HUGE here. @Stormwind - BOOYA! Good job!
Caterane 06-07-06, 09:25 AM	@TM: My dictionary says that's a speech of praise. No hint to a funeral.
TheMagister 06-07-06, 09:44 AM	@TM: My dictionary says that's a speech of praise. No hint to a funeral. Hmmm... :thinks: 1. A laudatory speech or written tribute, especially one praising someone who has died. v : praise formally and eloquently; "The dead woman was eulogized at the funeral" :teach: Lost in translation, I guess. It really does have connotations of speaking well of a dead person. A better word might have been one of these: tribute to MWB, accolades to MWB, or (less intense) compliments to MWB, or (more intense) exaltation of MWB. I like books (that's not necessarily Book5! j/k, Book!) and read a lot. My vocabulary is inversely proportional to my mathematical prowess. =) TM
Sindorin 06-07-06, 10:56 AM	@Iced reg. Validi - Ew. Just...ew. @MWB reg. the fight - Thanks! That went well. @Sindorin reg. your tactics - :confused: What were you thinking? I'm really asking in earnest here and not being sarcastic. Why on EARTH would you waste a feeblemind spell on Sdentch? Hold person, hideous laughter, or (MUCH better) dominate person, all with equally failable Will saves, would have been HUGE here. @Stormwind - BOOYA! Good job! Hehe... umm... well I have really no excuse. I guess I should be glad this week didn't count. Thank you for running the fight MindwandererB. I'm not reallly sure what provoked me to do that when I thought it was sound and well. Doesn't bother me that much really. I probably need a big kick in the pants considering I have been pretty much not paying any attention to the CoCo and my characters. Thanks guys, good match.
MindWandererB 06-07-06, 02:15 PM	Wow. Thanks for the praise. That means a lot, considering the amount of criticism I throw around. Heh. One thing, though: Those two fights didn't use the same balance formula. One was a ECL+ECL=ECL+2, and the other was a ECL+ECL=ECL+1. So we need some more data, I think. What is apparent to me, though, is that within those ranges, good tactics and a good build are far more important than anything else. Cyra's great maximiation of Hide, Move Silently, and ranged attacks, plus the fantastic idea of going for the steed, was what pulled it off there, combined with some inadequate tactics for Va'ria. However, Va'ria could have done a lot better there--if instead of Feeblemind it had been Dominate Person, the fight would have gone the other way, and if Va'ria had buffed differently (Fly and Prying Eyes earlier), it would have been a landslide. Of course, Va'ria is a particularly potent character.
Sindorin 06-07-06, 03:25 PM	Yeah, I have no idea why I selected my spells to be used tactically when I did - Va'ria had just won a hunter match so I based my tactics off of that. Even former elders need to make mistakes in order to reach higher points.
Ariel23 06-07-06, 04:20 PM	All right, I have Evaine Dreamseeker (Ariel23) and Perius (Ravashack) vs. Validi Reborn (Iced) done. If this were a real fight, I would feel very uncomfortable about the way I handled it in some cases, but since it's not real there's no reason to edit it. It was quite exciting, one of the best I've ever run. Well, obviously none of this matters, but I'm not sure why the wilder would make 3 hulking astral constructs and then have them stand in one place. Validi attacked the griffon, so I assume he became visible...? I might be wrong about that, but when Validi becomes visible, they would move out to attack. Whether or not Evaine wants to try to move close enough for an Entangle (and stop wilder-sitting) is a judgment call I have no problem with. I guess that Validi was more than 15' in the air. That would explain that. Too bad Perius' tactics didn't have any contingency for creating flying constructs. Edit: With things as they are, the fault would be on Evaine for not having her Griffon come back or descend a few feet. I didn't even think it could stay in one place while flying. (Also, you show him as stealing Animal Affinity, but that's just a typo.)
MindWandererB 06-07-06, 04:57 PM	You can track all these things in the fight. Validi's Invisibility was cancelled in round 5 when he attacked, but his location is (1,-18,6)--30 feet in the air. As I noted in my comments, the powerful werebear, with a max load of 7,000 pounds, is strong enough to bear the weight of the griffon and still remain airborne. The constructs were thus unable to attack. And even if Evaine was directly below Validi, she didn't have the reach to hit him with ectoplasm (25 ft.).
Stormwind 06-07-06, 04:59 PM	One thing, though: Those two fights didn't use the same balance formula. One was a ECL+ECL=ECL+2, and the other was a ECL+ECL=ECL+1. So we need some more data, I think. What is apparent to me, though, is that within those ranges, good tactics and a good build are far more important than anything else. Cyra's great maximiation of Hide, Move Silently, and ranged attacks, plus the fantastic idea of going for the steed, was what pulled it off there, combined with some inadequate tactics for Va'ria. However, Va'ria could have done a lot better there--if instead of Feeblemind it had been Dominate Person, the fight would have gone the other way, and if Va'ria had buffed differently (Fly and Prying Eyes earlier), it would have been a landslide. Of course, Va'ria is a particularly potent character. Thanks for running the fight and for the positive feedback on Cyra. She isn't quite fully maximized for stealth though ... her hide and move silently could both be 2 ranks higher giving her a +23 hide and a +18 move silently ;) I'm glad Cyra's tactics worked so well but I was really worried about the incredibly high save DC's of Varia's spells. I think that if Cyra had to face Varia in week 2 or 3 when Varia had already used up several spells, then Cyra might have a reasonable chance, but even one of those high level, high DC will save spells is lethal. @TM: Good fight. I loved Sdentch's antics when feebleminded :D
TheMagister 06-07-06, 05:17 PM	@TM: Good fight. I loved Sdentch's antics when feebleminded :D It's easy to keep Sdentch entertained. Friendly violence is a sure-fire way to do it. 1! 1! (sigh) TM
Ravashack 06-07-06, 05:51 PM	Yeah, great work on the fight MindWandererB. No real problems other than a few typos, but the fight doesn't count so why go back to reedit? :)
MindWandererB 06-07-06, 06:06 PM	Just for my reference, where were the typos? Mistakes I catch are less likely to be made again. You should have seen some of my early fights--it could take me half an hour to fix all the color tags. Now I generally don't miss more than one.
Ravashack 06-07-06, 06:50 PM	Just for my reference, where were the typos? Mistakes I catch are less likely to be made again. You should have seen some of my early fights--it could take me half an hour to fix all the color tags. Now I generally don't miss more than one. Hmmm, I wrote that at 6am before passing out and when I woke up realized I didn't post it. =X But the only real typo was the Animal Affinity Feat stealing (which should have been Astral Construct) which you have already fixed. I thought the Astral Constructs all expired one round too early since the duration kicks in the round after manifesting starts but /shrug, that's purely opinion. It makes no real difference anyway.
MindWandererB 06-07-06, 09:18 PM	Ba'al of the Grave (Book5) and Enoch the Prophet (Salrantol) vs. Dronnar Darkjof (DSugui), my last one, is done. No surprises, I think.
Zevox 06-07-06, 09:55 PM	@ NiQil - Famine's tactics recieved, thanks. I'm still waiting for tactics from Salrantol (Meinrad) and King Uther (Virgo) for my fights. Please get those in as soon as possible! I'd like to get one run before the weekend (and by one I mean Virgo vs the trio, since it'll be easier, though I'll do Zero vs Famine & Meinrad if I don't get Virgo's tactics in time). Zevox
Salrantol 06-07-06, 10:03 PM	You have no idea how surprised I was when, when writing tactics, I discovered I had no ranged weapon. When I update him from his last fight, I will buy one (obviously). OK, and as far as being not "well run"--yes, I forgot one silly line about "healing." Like clerics do that. :(
Salrantol 06-07-06, 10:11 PM	@Zevox: Writing tactics as you typed that message. Zero is annoying to write tactics for. Fortunately, I can out-Concentrate him. That +1 may mean the battle.
Zevox 06-07-06, 10:27 PM	@ Salrantol - Tactics for Meinrad recieved. Presuming I don't have Virgo's tactics by then, I'll start that fight tomorrow. Wish me luck (if you think Zero's annoying to write tactics against, try pitlording him...). Zevox
DSugui 06-08-06, 10:20 AM	It seems I have more things to do than I first thought, so I will only be able to run the fights on the weekend. @MindWandererB: Nice run. Thanks for saying Dronnar is a well built and well run character, but there are some things in him that I think could be better. But, even so, he is a character I would like to play in a TT game someday... BTW, you are free to write tactics for him in the Dronnar/Alagar/Zero fights. I am not sure if I will have the time to think over this in the next days.
Ariel23 06-08-06, 12:59 PM	You can track all these things in the fight. Validi's Invisibility was cancelled in round 5 when he attacked, but his location is (1,-18,6)--30 feet in the air. As I noted in my comments, the powerful werebear, with a max load of 7,000 pounds, is strong enough to bear the weight of the griffon and still remain airborne. The constructs were thus unable to attack. And even if Evaine was directly below Validi, she didn't have the reach to hit him with ectoplasm (25 ft.). It took me a moment to figure out the z axis in the parenthesis (to see it, actually). I wonder if everyone does that? I haven't been in many flying battles, if any. [Obviously.] I still would rather see telling the griffon to come back or land or something, rather than having all 5 of us stand there and wait to die. Once we made that decision, really the rest was just rolls to determine how long until the end came. Validi stops to fight the griffon when his tactics essentially say to fight it only if he has to...basically he says, "Well, my tactics say this, but I'll do this instead since that makes more sense." Meanwhile, Evaine and Perius don't improvise to achieve the only option they could come up up with to kill Validi. It's a very vexing situation for both PLs and players (it's why Argaud left, for example) and there's really only so much to be done about it unless we were to only PL fights for 2 of our own characters which we knew inside and out. In which case we really wouldn't need a community. ;) Some people--such as Argaud--feel that the PL may be out to get them or picking one side over another. While I have seen that sometimes, it's probably subconscious. have had DMs that are out to get me, OTOH. :) ] I'm not frustrated or anything, it just makes my analytical side curious. This is a tactical issue pretty typical of the CoCo, which is why I sometimes think we shouldn't have fight-specific tactics at all. I think default tactics (on the sheet, not PMd) could cover how to implement the character's abilities and general situations where it is appropriate, but if we were only allowed to write a strategy of like 50 words per opponent/ally it might look something like: --Buff Evaine's HP. --Protect Perius at all costs. --Keep Validi slowed and visible. --Send griffon to find Validi. --Steal Astral Construct from Evaine and use them to kill Validi. More or less. At first, I think it would be chaos on the boards, but after 3, 4, 5 weeks of doing it, eventually it would become status quo. There would be no more judgment calls for PLs because the whole fight would be a judgment call. Another option would be to build the character and then to set it free into the stream of the arena. Every week you set your character active, the PL not only runs the fight but has 100% control over the characters involved. After 20-30 fights in that fashion, you would know if your build was good or not, because that would be the only factor deciding the fight. After 20-30 fights, die rolls would average out. And "skill" of the PL or tactic-writing wouldn't matter because a bad PL will be bad for both characters. Some fights can go for 30+ rounds of meaningful interaction (60+ with ranged firing) but in TT D&D you would obviously adapt to the situation after about round 2. Even warforged aren't robots. It's just impossible to do that here without a post-by-post fight/thread. And Caterane is already trying to consolidate quests because there are too many threads. There's going to be holes in any system, including the current one, my daydreamed ones, and just about any other possible idea one might come up with. In the end, it probably just becomes a matter of which holes you want to see plugged, which is where the disagreement generally seems to have been in the Council thread for the past few weeks.
Ravashack 06-08-06, 01:59 PM	I think some pitlords have the character roll an Int check with a DC of ...15 or 20 I think before deciding to improvise against written tactics, or do a "well I improvised this many times for this side, so I'll throw in just as many for the other side" way of thinking I think, but it's been a while since I've seen something like that so I might be mistaken. Oh well, it just means I have to add more "what ifs" to counter ~10 lines of text + "improvise me" next time. This kind of makes me curious though. How would a fight like this go if Mindlink was used?
Book5 06-08-06, 02:01 PM	No surprises, I think. Wow, one decent shot in ten rounds, nice. I can't wait till Ba'al joins the shadow monastary! (and adds psionic body and weapon finess.. he should get better). Thanks MWB! ...no map?
MindWandererB 06-08-06, 03:04 PM	@Ariel: If a change to your tactics is submitted with your tactics, then it's not stepping outside the tactics to use the change in tactics. Follow? Iced basically said, "this is my main strategy, but if X happens, switch to this other strategy." He was a little vague about what X was ("forced to fight the griffon"), but it happened, so he did. I don't see this as improvisation. On the other hand, if he didn't mention the griffon at all, and all he said was that bit at the end ("if something unexpected happens, improvise"--which IMO is a useless statement), then I would not have done what he did, and he would have sat there hovering until he got an auditory sense of where Perius was, per his tactics. A good part of tactics is in the contingency clauses, moreso against complex foes, and sometimes just mentioning a possibility is enough to protect you. That's what happened here.
TelinArtho 06-08-06, 03:05 PM	Just to add my two cents on the matter of Validi vs Evaine and Perius: First of all, I'm not convinced that Validi would take the AoO offered to him by the griffon. Here's why: a) He is invisible. Being attacked by a foe who likely can't see you is not "being forced into combat." Although Perius had the benefit of invisibility and touchsight - he had to relay this information vocally to his ally. For someone who is within 60ft and has a decent listen skill (+11 for Validi) - this should not be a difficult check to pinpoint. b) Validi doesn't know that touchsight is active - but he does know that Evaine knows where he is. If Validi felt pressed by anyone to get into melee - it would be from Evaine - since Evaine was communicating the information to the griffon. With Evaine out of the picture - Validi gets the verbal instructions from Perius - thereby pinpointing him that way. c) Even if he wasn't invisible - he has better maneuverability than the griffon. Since he doesn't have to worry about drawing AoO himself, he can move past the griffon and continue searching for Perius. Once he finds Perius - he doesn't care about being invisible - so that's the goal he's looking for anyway. ---------------------- However, all of this has to do with particulars of the fight, not about the new type of fight. In general, I feel that the CR+CR=CR+2 will work well on occasion. I think it would be helpful to say that a particular character cannot be involved in more than one of these fights per ECL though - since they will probably be more draining on the characters than a fight of their level. I would also say that this type of fight gets pretty complicated when you add in mercs, allies and the like. A "simple" CR + CR = CR+2 might end up being CR (with 2 allies) + CR (with 2 allies) = CR+2 (with 3 allies) - so the pitlord could have a pretty big battle going on - not that this can't happen in all vs all or in hunter fights already though. Anyway - I'll support having these type of fights on occasion, but I'd rather not see a lot of them happen too soon. This test week is great and all - but I want to see how it works when people are actually concerned about how much they spend or whether it affects their record, or something similar.
MindWandererB 06-08-06, 03:21 PM	That's a good point. In retrospect, that would have been a better call--Validi relocates so that Perius has to tell Evaine to tell the griffon (phew!) where he is, and uses that to pinpoint Perius. I didn't think of that at the time. Odd how not considering a strategy for one party actually put them at an advantage. On the other hand, once Validi did pinpoint Perius (which wouldn't have been hard--he's in the middle of a donut of allies), he would have taken him out pretty quickly (the constructs had no silver, and would have done little damage), and Evaine never would have gotten her glaive-crit AoO, which was the one thing that helped them so much. @Iced, a strategy to consider on multiple land-bound foes, next time: Spend your first grapple check to move the grapple. Take them to the air and deal with them there. ---------- About the fights in general: I got extremely lucky with these pairings, with very few allies that mattered. Couple of mounts and the ill-fated griffon, but that's it. A more complex fight could have been very bad--had I gotten, say, Tan and Daisy vs. Loquan, I would have spend half the week on it.
DSugui 06-08-06, 04:36 PM	@Iced, a strategy to consider on multiple land-bound foes, next time: Spend your first grapple check to move the grapple. Take them to the air and deal with them there. Or throw them from there. Grapple, go up 50ft and release your ill-fated opponent: that's 5d6 damage...
MindWandererB 06-08-06, 04:41 PM	Well, he can't be at 50 feet, because that's where the ceiling is. It would take him a grapple check to fly up 30 feet, a second to fly up to 40 feet, and a third to release his opponent and drop them for 4d6 damage (about 14 points). Or he could just deal damage for 1d8+13.
TheMagister 06-08-06, 05:47 PM	He could fly up, drop them, and (if he could expand his reach to 10') take an AoO on them as they are leaving his threatened area. That's double damage (kinda). And after THAT, he DIVES!! TM
Ravashack 06-08-06, 06:30 PM	The constructs were intended to try to keep Validi grounded once he tried to attack and grapple, not actually deal damage. I just didn't see a point in having multiple ones grappling at the same time; we just wanted him grappled to ground him. Hence the Muscle option to increase grappling chances (+2). Evaine and the griffon were really the main damage dealers. Were the instructions I gave the constructs that confusing?
Iced 06-08-06, 07:09 PM	I forgot to tell Mindwanderer to add the gloves in at +8 Grapple and as soon as i correct alignment issues i should be able to use the rage ability with him also. Validi can net a +32 grapple bonus which will kill pretty much any character as long as they arn't a cleric with the travel domain or a spellcaster with some sort of spell that makes them very slippery. He deals 1d8+13 with a successful claw attack (+17 to hit, +20 if diving charge) and has improved grab. Charge - hit with claw - free action grapple. He has DR5/silver which makes it difficult to deal damage to him in a grapple and he has a reasonably large hp buffer in the first place. A few feats from now I plan on getting his grappling up another +5 (Imp. grapple and weapon focus). He's going war mind and thats a 1/level BAB increase. as soon as he goes epic he's picking up the epic +10 grappling feat. Level 21 should grant him a (+15 BAB, +21 Str [items included], +8 Gloves, +15 Feats, +2 Rage, +2 Chain of Personal Superiority, +4 Large Size) +67 Grapple Bonus. If he's enlarged i think that's an extra +5 per catagory (+1 Size, +1 Str increase) so that can net him an extra few with expansion. Two size catagories up and he's beating down Great Wyrm Gold Dragons (Grap +75). Give him 3 and he's pinning the Tarrasque (+81). :fight!:
MindWandererB 06-08-06, 07:10 PM	No, they weren't, but I figured the goal was to have one of them grapple to pin while the others grappled for damage. Perius would have been significantly crippled in trying to deal damage--Crystal Shard, a ranged attack, would have had a 1/4 chance of hitting Validi and a 3/4 chance of hitting one of the constructs, assuming Perius wasn't in the process of getting killed, which would only take two rounds. So basically Evaine would have gotten two, maybe three attacks... but it's all moot, because the griffon screwed up the chance of grounding Validi. It might have worked, especially if the guisarme crit and Validi's diving 1! were kept.
Stormwind 06-08-06, 07:16 PM	Valek & Istima & Bolrak vs. Evaine is up here. Please let me know if there are any glaring mistakes with the fight. @My gladiators: I am still waiting for tactics from the gladiators marked in red. I am running the fights in the order below and if I do not receive tactics from the remaining gladiators in red by the time that I get to to that fight then I will use default tactics. If no default tactics exist, then those gladiators will automatically lose the fight. Valek (DSugui) & Istima (Zevox) & Bolrak (Mindwanderer) vs. Evaine (Ariel23) Rianna (Ariel23) & Death (NiQil) & Sir Alboreth (Zevox) vs. Gatekeeper (Iced) Gatekeeper (Iced) & Anixx (Iced) vs. Virgo (King Uther) Dronnar (DSugui) & Alagar (King Uther) & Zero (Mindwanderer) vs. Varia (Sindorin)
MindWandererB 06-08-06, 07:36 PM	Valek & Istima & Bolrak vs. Evaine is up here. Please let me know if there are any glaring mistakes with the fight.It's been so long since I've run Bolrak that I just assumed he could out-grapple just about anything. Silly me.[/QUOTE]
Zevox 06-08-06, 08:29 PM	Valek & Istima & Bolrak vs. Evaine is up here. Please let me know if there are any glaring mistakes with the fight. Well, one that could possibly have been big is that I asked for Istima to double move so he couldn't be based by Evaine. That would mean closing to use his power in one move action (of his mount's) and then using the second to move away after firing the ray, which would have kept her from getting her swings at him. This would of course make him concentrate to use his rays, but he auto-succeeds on those anyway (+13 vs DC 10+power level). Since Evaine missed both times it wouldn't matter though. The other one is that the constructs shouldn't have been able to run after him if he simply changed directions so he ended around a pillar from them (in fact if he didn't he'd run into a wall), so thier AoOs shouldn't have happened. The Griffon is another story of course, and it was what brought Istima down, so this wouldn't matter either even if this was a real fight. Lastly, Istima still had 1 pp and his cognizance crystal, so he should have used those on Evaine before switching to his crossbow per his tactics. Not a big deal since this isn't a real fight, but its there. It was luck that determined the fight anyway. If the Griffon hadn't been so lucky with grapple rolls or Bolrak hadn't been so unlucky with his touch attack and grapple rolls this could have gone the other way... probably not easily, since those constructs would still likely kill Bolrak, but it could have. The real problem as I see it is that our collective damage output just wasn't great enough to deal with all Evaine's hp without Bolrak grappling her (which would invite the Griffon to help if he had gone straight for it), and that her allies made swarming her impossible. Without the allies Evaine would have had some trouble. Anyway, anybody have any thoughts on how fair a match-up this seemed, since thats the point of this? I'm having a hard time telling, since the allies were what played the biggest part in the battle for Evaine. Zevox
MindWandererB 06-08-06, 09:30 PM	My thought is that it was not fair. I think the ECL+ECL+ECL=ECL+3 formula isn't going to work--a character three ECLs above you has access to much more potent allies (including ones that are potentially just about as powerful as one of the teammates), much higher AC (largely through expendables), and many more countermeasures available. A difference of three ECLs is just too much--and Evaine isn't even a particularly potent character. A well-designed full caster, a thoroughly min-maxed warrior, or someone with good ally use, would all result in a totally one-sided match (assuming they had decent tactics).
Iced 06-09-06, 12:36 AM	Please ignore Anixx's prebuffed allies if you're pitlording for him. I just went through and added that as a prebuff for next week's fights and it will have no bearing on this week's fights. ~Iced
King Uther 06-09-06, 01:30 AM	I gave my wife a vacation from the PC for her birthday. I am working on tactics, and will try to have the fights done at my earliest convenience. As far as the Hunter fight edit goes, it will be done Saturday afternoon so I can put some real time into it.
King Uther 06-09-06, 02:09 AM	Tactics not received for Dronnar in his fight vs the three. This fight will go last in the order, and if tactics aren't received obviously there can be no fight. Tactics received in the Asran+Aeryyl vs Sdentch. While the two warriors are at a disadvantage, and while a little luck could go a long way, I feel this fight will be decided within the first 10 rounds. I'll try to run this one tomorrow night, but I might decide to do the Hunter edit instead and wait til Saturday.
Stormwind 06-09-06, 05:24 AM	Well, one that could possibly have been big is that I asked for Istima to double move so he couldn't be based by Evaine. That would mean closing to use his power in one move action (of his mount's) and then using the second to move away after firing the ray, which would have kept her from getting her swings at him. This would of course make him concentrate to use his rays, but he auto-succeeds on those anyway (+13 vs DC 10+power level). Since Evaine missed both times it wouldn't matter though. My mistake on the double move thing ... I had (mis)understood that you wanted Istima to act before or after the double move, not in the middle of it. As far as manifesting defensively, the DC is 15+power level, so Istima doesn't auto-succeed ... yet. The other one is that the constructs shouldn't have been able to run after him if he simply changed directions so he ended around a pillar from them (in fact if he didn't he'd run into a wall), so thier AoOs shouldn't have happened. The Griffon is another story of course, and it was what brought Istima down, so this wouldn't matter either even if this was a real fight. I'm not quite sure what you mean here, however since Istima was only using double move actions (you didn't specify any condition for running), his movement was 120' per round whereas the constructs had 160' per round running (or 200' per round with celerity). Thus they were easily able to base him. Lastly, Istima still had 1 pp and his cognizance crystal, so he should have used those on Evaine before switching to his crossbow per his tactics. Not a big deal since this isn't a real fight, but its there. True, I improvised a little here based on the fact that I figured Istima wanted to keep away from the constructs more than he wanted to use those pp. It was luck that determined the fight anyway. If the Griffon hadn't been so lucky with grapple rolls or Bolrak hadn't been so unlucky with his touch attack and grapple rolls this could have gone the other way... probably not easily, since those constructs would still likely kill Bolrak, but it could have. The real problem as I see it is that our collective damage output just wasn't great enough to deal with all Evaine's hp without Bolrak grappling her (which would invite the Griffon to help if he had gone straight for it), and that her allies made swarming her impossible. Without the allies Evaine would have had some trouble. There was also the problem that the griffon was better at grappling than Bolrak, and had more hp too. If all three of you had focused on the griffon first, it might have gone differently, or maybe not, given the rolls. But the griffon was definitely the deciding factor here. Anyway, anybody have any thoughts on how fair a match-up this seemed, since thats the point of this? I'm having a hard time telling, since the allies were what played the biggest part in the battle for Evaine. I think that without the griffon, this would have been a much more even fight. Evaine's constructs would still have been dangerous, but since they required a natural 20 to hit Istima, a 17+ to hit Valek and a 10+ to hit Bolrak (the third construct would have required higher rolls), you would have had better chances. I think that the formula works in the case of the higher level gladiator not having allies, simply because of weight of numbers. I also suspect that at higher levels, the allies become less significant. My thought is that it was not fair. I think the ECL+ECL+ECL=ECL+3 formula isn't going to work--a character three ECLs above you has access to much more potent allies (including ones that are potentially just about as powerful as one of the teammates), much higher AC (largely through expendables), and many more countermeasures available. A difference of three ECLs is just too much--and Evaine isn't even a particularly potent character. A well-designed full caster, a thoroughly min-maxed warrior, or someone with good ally use, would all result in a totally one-sided match (assuming they had decent tactics). I'm not entirely sure that I agree with this, at least not yet. I think that the character three ECL's above you does have a huge advantage if ECL <= 5 and if they bring in allies since the allies could be ECL+1. However I'm not entirely sure that even this would necessarily mean a totally one-sided match, although it would definitely be more difficult. However, a character with allies is almost always more potent even in same ECL fights. Thus I would conclude that at low levels versus an opponent who is three levels above you and has allies, the formula does seem a bit unbalanced. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- @King Uther: Tactics received for Virgo and Alagar. @MindWandererB: Tactics received for Zero. @My gladiators: I am still waiting for tactics from the gladiators marked in red. I am running the fights in the order below and if I do not receive tactics from the remaining gladiators in red by the time that I get to to that fight then I will use default tactics. If no default tactics exist, then those gladiators will automatically lose the fight. Valek (DSugui) & Istima (Zevox) & Bolrak (Mindwanderer) vs. Evaine (Ariel23) Rianna (Ariel23) & Death (NiQil) & Sir Alboreth (Zevox) vs. Gatekeeper (Iced) Gatekeeper (Iced) & Anixx (Iced) vs. Virgo (King Uther) Dronnar (DSugui) & Alagar (King Uther) & Zero (Mindwanderer) vs. Varia (Sindorin)
DSugui 06-09-06, 11:45 AM	@Stormwind and King Uther: tactics for Dronnar sent by PM. I apology if the tactics aren't better, but I have limited time in the moment.
Stormwind 06-09-06, 11:52 AM	@DSugui: Tactics received for Dronnar @My gladiators: I have received tactics from everyone. Thanks all. Valek (DSugui) & Istima (Zevox) & Bolrak (Mindwanderer) vs. Evaine (Ariel23) Rianna (Ariel23) & Death (NiQil) & Sir Alboreth (Zevox) vs. Gatekeeper (Iced) Gatekeeper (Iced) & Anixx (Iced) vs. Virgo (King Uther) Dronnar (DSugui) & Alagar (King Uther) & Zero (Mindwanderer) vs. Varia (Sindorin)
Zevox 06-09-06, 02:18 PM	My mistake on the double move thing ... I had (mis)understood that you wanted Istima to act before or after the double move, not in the middle of it. As far as manifesting defensively, the DC is 15+power level, so Istima doesn't auto-succeed ... yet. Actually, I was refering to the concentration check that he would have to make for manifesting while on a double-moving mount. Manifesting defensively he can't do automatically for a while, true, but a little positioning before retreating allows avoiding that outright. I'm not quite sure what you mean here, however since Istima was only using double move actions (you didn't specify any condition for running), his movement was 120' per round whereas the constructs had 160' per round running (or 200' per round with celerity). Thus they were easily able to base him. The problem there is that they can only run in a straight line, so simply manuevering around a pillar would have denied them the ability to move that fast. Thats what I meant there. True, I improvised a little here based on the fact that I figured Istima wanted to keep away from the constructs more than he wanted to use those pp. True enough I suppose. Evading the constructs and then unloading the pp would have been a perfectly acceptable improvisation in a real match. That thought just didn't register when I saw the match since he didn't wind up evading them. Zevox
Zevox 06-09-06, 10:30 PM	Zero vs Famine & Meinrad is done. I have just one question: Is this the longest fight in CoCo history? Because if it isn't, I would like to extend my deepest sympathies to whoever had a longer one. 144 rounds, and it could've been a lot more if it were real... As for my other fight (Virgo vs 3 ECL 7), now that I've recieved tactics from KU, I'll likely run it sunday. I work most of tomorrow. Zevox
NiQil 06-09-06, 11:05 PM	Zero vs Famine & Meinrad is done. I have just one question: Is this the longest fight in CoCo history? Because if it isn't, I would like to extend my deepest sympathies to whoever had a longer one. 144 rounds, and it could've been a lot more if it were real... As for my other fight (Virgo vs 3 ECL 7), now that I've recieved tactics from KU, I'll likely run it sunday. I work most of tomorrow. Zevox If you had run it all the way through, yes, it would be, since continuing the healing would have lengthened the fight considerably longer. I'm ok with you stopping it there, however, since it doesn't count, and Famine's chances of winning were remote to begin with. I kinda figured we were gonna lose, since we had no way to force melee, which is where both Famine and Meinrad excel. As it stands, I believe Sauro ran a fight for me that went 160-some-odd rounds a couple of months ago....one of my characters was facing Argaud's Gorgul MacSmart, if memory serves. This is a byproduct of the 3FC rules....I have prepared all of my characters to not run out of healing or arrows in any cycle in all but the most extreme cases....but at the same time I have no qualms about getting to this type of archery-healing duel with someone. As an aside, I am currently leaning towards they inter-league fights being unfair. The biggest problem I am seeing is that some things get high enough that lower ECL characters can't do anything about them. This was a perfect example. Famine needed a 20 to hit, while Zero needed a 9. I don't care how many characters were in that fight....if they were all ECL 5, Zero would still probably win because of that large difference. In another fight that one of my characters is in, we are fighting Galagith the Gatekeeper. That has a similar circumstance. Galagith has a base AC of 27, which none of the characters on the other side comes close to. They will have a very difficult time hitting that, while Galagith will find it fairly easy to hit his opponents, simply because of the differences in base attack bonus and money to buy equipment. There isn't really any way to overcome those differences on a regular basis. Sure, you might get a pairing that really favors the lower team, or you might get really lucky with the dice....but I think the differences in the ECL's is really difficult to overcome...especially at lower levels.
MindWandererB 06-10-06, 12:41 AM	@NiQil: I'm not sure that fight was a fair assessment of your argument. Normally, yes, I agree with you. But this fight had an ECL difference of only 1. Zero's high AC and attack bonus are due more to massive min-maxing of exactly those things, than the ECL difference. -=-=-=-=-=- All right. Clearly Zero is an effective character. But I have to take a good long look at whether it's worth it to continue running him. The good news: he doesn't get any more complicated than this. He'll get a few more psychic warrior powers, but for the most part, this is it. Compared to high-ECL casters with lots of allies, he's easy to run. The bad news: he's so highly defensive that a CLW wand makes dealing with him a nightmare. I don't like the idea of retiring him. For one, I really want to see how folks will deal with him at higher levels, and learn how he can deal with them dealing with him. For another, I spent credits on him and I'd rather not just throw those away. One option is to try to figure out some way of dealing with CLW wands other than just bulling through them. Sundering might work, although it would take a couple of tries--a wand is AC 12+Dex (vs. Zero's attack bonus of +8 with a greataxe), and effectively has 10 HP due to hardness. Not impossible. An adamantine greataxe would help. Flyby attack will allow Zero to safely attempt a sunder as long as the opponent has no melee weapon ready. He'll be getting Spring Attack in a few levels, at which point he can safely do it to anyone. So if they have a bow in their other hand (likely at that point) and no spiked armor (less likely), this is an option. Can anyone think of anything else? Disarming is not an option--Tiny size makes disarming bare-handed pretty much impossible, and if he uses a greataxe, the opponent will just pick the wand up again. Melee is suicide. He has no way of dealing more damage faster, and if I could think of a way, he'd be doing it anyway. I ask this more to promote pitlord sanity than any other reason. Zero can win through sheer persistance, but I'd like to avoid that in the future if possible.
Salrantol 06-10-06, 08:27 PM	I won't be able to finish my fight by the deadline. I should have been able to, but there's just too many characters involved. 3 characters I could have done. 3 characters, 2 animal companions, 2 allies, and 2 summoned creatures just takes forever. If somebody wants to take it, say so here. I have eight rounds up here with the setup here. So far, I've put in 4 hours + and that's all I have to show for it. If nobody wants it, I'll just finish it late.
MindWandererB 06-11-06, 01:07 AM	I have eight rounds up here with the setup here. So far, I've put in 4 hours + and that's all I have to show for it. If nobody wants it, I'll just finish it late.The first link is dead.Aerryl ascends 20 ft. and casts resist energy (fire)S upon Predator. [Share spells is an important ability. Read about it.]Please check the rules before you decide to be snarky. You can't share spells off a scroll. The first version of my tactics had Aerryl casting and sharing Protection from Energy (fire), but I decided to use scrolls instead so I could use the spell levels for something else. If you'll check, you'll see that Aerryl doesn't even have Resist Energy prepared, so please refund those spell levels so you can follow my tactics. (Ironically, you gave her the spell duration as if it were cast from scroll, but didn't do anything else that way.)
Stormwind 06-11-06, 09:26 AM	Rianna & Death & Sir Alboreth vs. Gatekeeper is up here. Let me know if there are any problems. Current Status of my fights: Valek (DSugui) & Istima (Zevox) & Bolrak (Mindwanderer) vs. Evaine (Ariel23) Rianna (Ariel23) & Death (NiQil) & Sir Alboreth (Zevox) vs. Gatekeeper (Iced) Gatekeeper (Iced) & Anixx (Iced) vs. Virgo (King Uther) .. In progress Dronnar (DSugui) & Alagar (King Uther) & Zero (Mindwanderer) vs. Varia (Sindorin)
Salrantol 06-11-06, 09:59 AM	The first link is dead.Please check the rules before you decide to be snarky. You can't share spells off a scroll. The first version of my tactics had Aerryl casting and sharing Protection from Energy (fire), but I decided to use scrolls instead so I could use the spell levels for something else. If you'll check, you'll see that Aerryl doesn't even have Resist Energy prepared, so please refund those spell levels so you can follow my tactics. (Ironically, you gave her the spell duration as if it were cast from scroll, but didn't do anything else that way.) Sorry about the link, I'll fix it; and I wasn't trying to be snarky, just ribbing you a little. Secondly, your word that you can't share spells off a scroll doesn't persuade me. I used the following to make that judgment call, and unless you had specifically stated you were casting it on each of you separately, I'd've had you share them.A spell successfully activated from a scroll works exactly like a spell prepared and cast the normal way.It is also noteworthy that "share spells" is an ability of the animal companion, not the caster.
Zevox 06-11-06, 10:21 AM	Rianna & Death & Sir Alboreth vs. Gatekeeper is up here. Let me know if there are any problems. Nice fight. Only thing wrong that I notice is that the 2pp Alboreth put into his sword on that missed attack should have stayed around for 1 minute, so his first hit in round 13 should have done the extra 2d6 damage for that. As for the buffs, I went with them all largely because Alboreth loses nothing for the match, and because if Galagith had tried to attack him he'd need all the help he could get to stay alive. *shrugs* Could probably have done without Skate now that I think of it, but oh well. Zevox
NiQil 06-11-06, 04:12 PM	Sorry about the link, I'll fix it; and I wasn't trying to be snarky, just ribbing you a little. Secondly, your word that you can't share spells off a scroll doesn't persuade me. I used the following to make that judgment call, and unless you had specifically stated you were casting it on each of you separately, I'd've had you share them.It is also noteworthy that "share spells" is an ability of the animal companion, not the caster. This is incorrect. It has been consistantly ruled in the past that you can only share spells that you yourself cast from memory. This is listed in the Court Decisions post. Below is the relevant text. Q: Can you share spells/powers with a familiar/animal companion/psicrystal that are cast/manifested from a scroll/powerstone? A: No. To share a spell/power, you must have the ability to cast the spell yourself, and not from an item.
Stormwind 06-12-06, 05:12 AM	Nice fight. Only thing wrong that I notice is that the 2pp Alboreth put into his sword on that missed attack should have stayed around for 1 minute, so his first hit in round 13 should have done the extra 2d6 damage for that. As for the buffs, I went with them all largely because Alboreth loses nothing for the match, and because if Galagith had tried to attack him he'd need all the help he could get to stay alive. *shrugs* Could probably have done without Skate now that I think of it, but oh well. Zevox Good point about charging the deep crystal. Edit: Fight edited. Nothing much changed. The only difference is that Galagith doesn't get his attack (which missed anyway) in round 19.
Salrantol 06-12-06, 05:49 AM	This is incorrect. It has been consistantly ruled in the past that you can only share spells that you yourself cast from memory. This is listed in the Court Decisions post. Below is the relevant text. OK, well, in that case, the Court Decisions post just needs to be easier to find, because I don't have a clue where it is.
NiQil 06-12-06, 08:00 AM	OK, well, in that case, the Court Decisions post just needs to be easier to find, because I don't have a clue where it is. The link is located in the Rules thread under the House Rules section (or it was last time I looked), and the actual post is located on the front page of the Prison...it's about 10 posts down, if memory serves.
TelinArtho 06-12-06, 02:26 PM	I figured it might be helpful to see the kinds of comments we've had so far all tabulated up. When I get some time later, I'll try to tally up a for/against vote according to these observations (just to get a general idea). From a rough guess, it seems that the majority feel the ECL+ECL vs ECL+2 are the most balanced - but that we need more and better data to work with. One week of test fights hasn't really shown enough yet. Pitlord notes in order of fights posted: General Comments: If this were a real fight, I would feel very uncomfortable with the judgment calls I had to make. Perius and Evaine were totally unprepared for an opponent who was both flying and invisible, but Validi was totally unprepared for the combination of entanglement and really horrible luck. The result was a lot closer than it might have been. On the other hand, this seemed like a reasonable matchup regarding the ECL's, although stronger tactics would have helped Validi more than the team. The ability to afford multiple pricey potions was the biggest strength of being in a higher ECL in this case. General Comments: Hard to judge this fight, since Sindorin made some huge tactical blunders. Had he been a bit more thorough, and picked a better strategy, this could have gone the other way very easily. Wizards are kind of glass cannons, which makes every fight with them a slaughter one way or another. General Comments: An unfair fight from beginning to end. Dronnar is a well-built and well-run character, and his opponents weren't. Had he fought one of them when he was ECL 4, the results would have been the same. So the ECL+ECL=ECL+2 seemed reasonable in this case. @DSugui: Valek's role was somewhat limited due to his lack of damage output. @Zevox: Istima mananged to survive for quite a long time due to his high mobility and his high AC. @Mindwanderer: Bolrak had problems with the griffon due to the fact that it was better at grappling that he was. @Ariel23: Evaine's griffon and good luck was what carried this fight. -The griffon statuette can only be used 2/week for 6 hours at a time. This may mean that it will be important to track how long a griffon has been active and thus you might not have it available for all 3 fights in a cycle. -The cognizance crystal can only be charged (for free) at the beginning of a 3 week cycle, however I think that you can use it whenever or however you want. I think that the griffon played a large part in Evaine's success in this fight. The figurines are particulary powerful against the lower ECL's. @ All - If anyone would care to examine this fight for fairness level of the ECL+ECL vs ECL+1 match up, go ahead. Zero's fighting style makes match with him an uphill fight anyway, and I'm having a very hard time seeing the "if it had been someone else" view after running this fight. I think this fight was a reasonable challenge for both sides. It could very easily have gone the other way, for example if Galagith had moved the grapple up into the air, however I think that even then the others would still have had a reasonable chance. @ Comments on Match Up: Seemed to me like this could've gone either way if Virgo had better tactics, though that is largely due to prescence of powerful allies like the bat swarm and Griffon. Without those, I think this would've just been a slaughter -Virgo could use his alpha strike to down Aerryl, then grapple Perius to death real fast, then empathic transfer and grapple-kill Evaine. And if Virgo had his leadership cohort at this point, things would've just been straight up ugly for the team. So I think this particular match up probably isn't a fair one overall, despite the team's win here. Comments in the FotW thread for the new fights MW, I have to praise you for your fights. I like your frame very much and you do a great job in running these characters. Don't worry about your decisions; I would have done the same and many others surely too. Thumbsup! These first two fights were very balanced in the setup. I am very positive that we've found the right combination of ECLs but let's wait for the others. I'm especially looking forward to the 3 vs. 1 fights. Wow. Thanks for the praise. That means a lot, considering the amount of criticism I throw around. Heh. One thing, though: Those two fights didn't use the same balance formula. One was a ECL+ECL=ECL+2, and the other was a ECL+ECL=ECL+1. So we need some more data, I think. What is apparent to me, though, is that within those ranges, good tactics and a good build are far more important than anything else. Cyra's great maximiation of Hide, Move Silently, and ranged attacks, plus the fantastic idea of going for the steed, was what pulled it off there, combined with some inadequate tactics for Va'ria. However, Va'ria could have done a lot better there--if instead of Feeblemind it had been Dominate Person, the fight would have gone the other way, and if Va'ria had buffed differently (Fly and Prying Eyes earlier), it would have been a landslide. Of course, Va'ria is a particularly potent character. However, all of this has to do with particulars of the fight, not about the new type of fight. In general, I feel that the CR+CR=CR+2 will work well on occasion. I think it would be helpful to say that a particular character cannot be involved in more than one of these fights per ECL though - since they will probably be more draining on the characters than a fight of their level. I would also say that this type of fight gets pretty complicated when you add in mercs, allies and the like. A "simple" CR + CR = CR+2 might end up being CR (with 2 allies) + CR (with 2 allies) = CR+2 (with 3 allies) - so the pitlord could have a pretty big battle going on - not that this can't happen in all vs all or in hunter fights already though. Anyway - I'll support having these type of fights on occasion, but I'd rather not see a lot of them happen too soon. This test week is great and all - but I want to see how it works when people are actually concerned about how much they spend or whether it affects their record, or something similar. About the fights in general: I got extremely lucky with these pairings, with very few allies that mattered. Couple of mounts and the ill-fated griffon, but that's it. A more complex fight could have been very bad--had I gotten, say, Tan and Daisy vs. Loquan, I would have spend half the week on it. My thought is that it was not fair. I think the ECL+ECL+ECL=ECL+3 formula isn't going to work--a character three ECLs above you has access to much more potent allies (including ones that are potentially just about as powerful as one of the teammates), much higher AC (largely through expendables), and many more countermeasures available. A difference of three ECLs is just too much--and Evaine isn't even a particularly potent character. A well-designed full caster, a thoroughly min-maxed warrior, or someone with good ally use, would all result in a totally one-sided match (assuming they had decent tactics). I'm not entirely sure that I agree with this, at least not yet. I think that the character three ECL's above you does have a huge advantage if ECL <= 5 and if they bring in allies since the allies could be ECL+1. However I'm not entirely sure that even this would necessarily mean a totally one-sided match, although it would definitely be more difficult. However, a character with allies is almost always more potent even in same ECL fights. Thus I would conclude that at low levels versus an opponent who is three levels above you and has allies, the formula does seem a bit unbalanced. As an aside, I am currently leaning towards they inter-league fights being unfair. The biggest problem I am seeing is that some things get high enough that lower ECL characters can't do anything about them. This was a perfect example. Famine needed a 20 to hit, while Zero needed a 9. I don't care how many characters were in that fight....if they were all ECL 5, Zero would still probably win because of that large difference. In another fight that one of my characters is in, we are fighting Galagith the Gatekeeper. That has a similar circumstance. Galagith has a base AC of 27, which none of the characters on the other side comes close to. They will have a very difficult time hitting that, while Galagith will find it fairly easy to hit his opponents, simply because of the differences in base attack bonus and money to buy equipment. There isn't really any way to overcome those differences on a regular basis. Sure, you might get a pairing that really favors the lower team, or you might get really lucky with the dice....but I think the differences in the ECL's is really difficult to overcome...especially at lower levels. @NiQil: I'm not sure that fight was a fair assessment of your argument. Normally, yes, I agree with you. But this fight had an ECL difference of only 1. Zero's high AC and attack bonus are due more to massive min-maxing of exactly those things, than the ECL difference.
DSugui 06-12-06, 02:42 PM	Hey, all. I have to apologize for not being able to complete neither of the fights I was assigned to run. I had some connection problems this weekend, combined with the fact that my finals start today, so I had very little time online to run the fights. I am deeply sorry. As a feedback on the fights that were run, I have to say that even if ECL+ECL vs ECL+2 seems a fair fight, we have a clear expendable problem. ECL - Expendable Cap 3 - 450 4 - 800 5 - 1250 6 - 1800 7 - 2450 8 - 3200 9 - 4050 10 - 5000 A character of higher ECL sure does have access to more powerful expendable and items in genereal, but a cambination of two lower ECLs have a higher amount (in value) of expendables. I think an ECL+ECL vs ECL+2 fight is more expensive than a regular ECL vs ECL fight to both parties, unless the conditions are extremely favorable to one side. In the 3WC, this could be a problem.
Zevox 06-12-06, 04:59 PM	Aerryl & Perius & Evaine vs Virgo is up. An excellent example of why you should actually look at your opponents' character sheets before writing tactics. Zevox
Ravashack 06-12-06, 05:23 PM	Aerryl & Perius & Evaine vs Virgo is up. An excellent example of why you should actually look at your opponents' character sheets before writing tactics. Zevox Yeah, I chuckled when I saw that his tactics included "grapple Aerryl".
MindWandererB 06-12-06, 08:15 PM	Aerryl & Perius & Evaine vs Virgo is up. An excellent example of why you should actually look at your opponents' character sheets before writing tactics.Well, I won't ask for a correction given the circumstances, but, like a lot of people around here, you messed up casting defensively. If you even attempt to cast defensively, you don't provoke an AoO, but if you fail, you lose the spell.
King Uther 06-13-06, 01:51 AM	True. I wrote all of my tactics very briefly, but I figured it was all in fun. When I saw the tactics employed against me, I felt like I was going to lose anyways. Also.... I will only be able to run one of the two fights I have due to unforseen expenditures of my time this weekend. I will run a fight tomorrow night, s o if someone wants to pick up any one of them, go ahead, but don't put yourself out. I'll try to do both if I have time, I just don't expect to.
Stormwind 06-13-06, 01:27 PM	Gatekeeper & Anixx vs. Virgo is up here. Let me know if there are any problems. Current Status of my fights: Valek (DSugui) & Istima (Zevox) & Bolrak (Mindwanderer) vs. Evaine (Ariel23) Rianna (Ariel23) & Death (NiQil) & Sir Alboreth (Zevox) vs. Gatekeeper (Iced) Gatekeeper (Iced) & Anixx (Iced) vs. Virgo (King Uther) Dronnar (DSugui) & Alagar (King Uther) & Zero (Mindwanderer) vs. Varia (Sindorin) I will try to get the last fight up tonight, but I suspect that it won't be ready until tomorrow.
King Uther 06-13-06, 10:02 PM	It doesn't really matter, because the fight wasn't that important, but Virgo shouldnt be attacking with his spikes, he should be grappling with them since he has a huge grapple bonus. It definitely would've changed the outcome, but I don't even care so no worries.
Iced 06-13-06, 10:11 PM	@Uther - Alagar doesn't have the stone of expansion and potion of invisibility mentioned in your tactics...
King Uther 06-14-06, 02:25 AM	After only an hour, Sdentch vs Aerryl and Asran is up. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9383785&postcount=27) This fight was a lot closer than it looks. One side got some lucky rolls(especially in the damage department).
MindWandererB 06-14-06, 02:36 AM	After only an hour, Sdentch vs Aerryl and Asran is up. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9383785&postcount=27) This fight was a lot closer than it looks. One side got some lucky rolls(especially in the damage department).Exciting! One thing, though: The bat swarm is not a berserk plague of death. It doesn't automatically damage everything in its space unless it wants to. I don't think it made the slightest difference, though.
Zevox 06-14-06, 02:54 AM	After only an hour, Sdentch vs Aerryl and Asran is up. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9383785&postcount=27) This fight was a lot closer than it looks. One side got some lucky rolls(especially in the damage department). Wow - thats some unbelieveable luck. Although it probably shouldn't have gone that way - in a few rounds Asran spent all of his actions attacking, order the Furies about, etc, and couldn't have moved or hovered (both move actions), and thus would've fallen from the sky. That first round of combat comes to mind, where Asran orders the Furies to attack and also fires his bow, despite not hovering last round. Fortunately theres no reason to change anything, since this was a purely test fight. Definitely an exciting battle though :) . Zevox
Stormwind 06-14-06, 04:15 AM	It doesn't really matter, because the fight wasn't that important, but Virgo shouldnt be attacking with his spikes, he should be grappling with them since he has a huge grapple bonus. It definitely would've changed the outcome, but I don't even care so no worries. Actually since most of his buffs were dispelled, he had a better chance to hit when attacking with the spikes compared to grappling since Galagith had a higher grapple check at that stage. If he attacked with the spikes he needed a roll of 13 or better to hit while he needed a dice roll 5 higher than his opponents roll to hit with the grapple (or 1 higher using GoI). Thus I had him attack with the spikes rather than grapple. In hindsight it would have been better to grapple with GoI, but I missed that when I was running it. Storm
Ariel23 06-14-06, 02:25 PM	It seems to me that the inter-league fights are at least as unfair for the players and unwieldy for the PL as any FFA or Hunter match. I would say the reward system is at least as imbalanced as either of those.* I don't see a problem with using inter-league fights any more than there being a problem with hunter, FFA, or unknown monster fights. Just like those, they should probably be used sparingly. Perhaps one or two interleague fights per week (an ECL+ECL v ECL +2 and an ECL+ECL+ECL v ECL +3) that everyone can watch with anticipation...give it a bit of drama and notoriety. *I'm not sure about a 1 vs 3 fight: If the "1" beats two of his opponents, wouldn't he get winner rewards for the two he beat and a loser reward for the one he didn't? Obviously, even though he beat 2/3 of his opponents, he gets the loss. I've never liked the rewards for FFA (or win/loss) but to the extent possible, all "special" matches should probably determine rewards in the most similar way possible for clarity and consistency.
TheMagister 06-15-06, 03:24 AM	After only an hour, Sdentch vs Aerryl and Asran is up. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9383785&postcount=27) This fight was a lot closer than it looks. One side got some lucky rolls(especially in the damage department). Aw, MAN! That was an exciting fight. There's always that moment where you think "what if I had decided against the longspear? My AC would have been three points higher...". :) Lucky, LUCKY rolls on ya'lls ally's to-hit and damage. Sdentch was comin' for ya, druid! I'm super glad that Sauro and the Elders are working out a better ally system...they're obviously out-of-balance as they currently stand. I'm not complaining about the fight, though. It was very well run, and super exciting. Say, King Uther...did you ever have Sdentch rage for the extra HP? (goes to look...) Ooooh...no you didn't! That would have been 18 more hps that Sdentch could have to charge, run (why did you say that Sdentch can't run while flying, Stormwind? It even says you can in the description of the spell...), whatever. If Sdentch could kill Aerryl before the rage runs out (2 decent shield hits would do it), she could heal to prevent herself from dying. Plausible. I won't ask for the additional rounds. If you're bored, I wouldn't mind seeing them, I'll admit. But it's obvious that even with luck, it's a tough fight for two EL 7s (even two highly successful ones) to take on even an average EL 9. TM
TheMagister 06-15-06, 03:39 AM	Exciting! One thing, though: The bat swarm is not a berserk plague of death. It doesn't automatically damage everything in its space unless it wants to. I don't think it made the slightest difference, though. Doesn't it say in the definition of the swarm monster type that it damages everything in its space, no matter what? (goes to check his MM) Yep. Says so both in the "Swarm Attack" section of the Swarm glossary entry and in the entry of the bat swarm itself. No discretion. ... How does one train a bat swarm, anyhow? Darned rules loopholes... =) TM
Stormwind 06-15-06, 10:49 AM	<snip> That would have been 18 more hps that Sdentch could have to charge, run (why did you say that Sdentch can't run while flying, Stormwind? It even says you can in the description of the spell...), whatever. <snip> You can't run while flying if your ability to fly derives from the spell. The following quote is the spell description from the SRD (empahsis mine). Fly Transmutation Level: Sor/Wiz 3, Travel 3 Components: V, S, F/DF Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Target: Creature touched Duration: 1 min./level Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless) Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) The subject can fly at a speed of 60 feet (or 40 feet if it wears medium or heavy armor, or if it carries a medium or heavy load). It can ascend at half speed and descend at double speed, and its maneuverability is good. Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking, so the subject can attack or cast spells normally. The subject of a fly spell can charge but not run, and it cannot carry aloft more weight than its maximum load, plus any armor it wears. Should the spell duration expire while the subject is still aloft, the magic fails slowly. The subject floats downward 60 feet per round for 1d6 rounds. If it reaches the ground in that amount of time, it lands safely. If not, it falls the rest of the distance, taking 1d6 points of damage per 10 feet of fall. Since dispelling a spell effectively ends it, the subject also descends in this way if the fly spell is dispelled, but not if it is negated by an antimagic field. Arcane Focus: A wing feather from any bird.
TheMagister 06-15-06, 12:00 PM	You can't run while flying if your ability to fly derives from the spell. The following quote is the spell description from the SRD (empahsis mine). Well I'll be dipped. I'll have to check my hardcopy PHB to see if that is an errata change or something. Weird! Actually, Sdentch only moves 45' when she's flying (she's in medium armor of quickness), so I've been quoting her fly speed incorrectly for a long time! Thanks, Stormwind! TM
MindWandererB 06-15-06, 03:06 PM	Yep. Says so both in the "Swarm Attack" section of the Swarm glossary entry and in the entry of the bat swarm itself. No discretion. ...How does one train a bat swarm, anyhow? Darned rules loopholes... =)Huh. You're right, of course. The one place I was looking (the general "Swarms" header) was the one place that didn't mention it. I'll have to be more careful in team fights from now on. And I totally agree about the insanity of training five thousand bats as a cohesive unit. When I noticed how overpowered the Diplomacy/Handle rules were, I immediately checked my characters to see if any of them could benefit. Only Aerryl could, unfortunately. So I went down the list of HA allies to see if anything would be decent at her ECL, and saw the bat swarm sitting pretty at CR 2. As long as Cat is going to allow such ridiculousness, I'm going to take advantage of it.
Stormwind 06-26-06, 07:26 PM	TEST PAIRINGS ECL+ECL vs ECL+2 Pairings: Lantash (bluemage55) & Solan (Iced) vs. ECL 5: Rianna (Ariel23) : DSugui [3+3 vs. 5] Ba'al (Book5) & Enoch (Salrantol) vs. Dronnar (DSugui) : Mindwanderer [4+4 vs. 6] Little Daisy (DSugui) & Eraca (Zevox) vs. Aeryll (Mindwanderer) : Salrantol [5+5 vs. 7] Incomplete War (NiQil) & Sunstroke (Mindwanderer) vs. Archdevil Asran (Zevox) : DSugui [5+5 vs. 7] Incomplete Evaine (Ariel23) & Perius (Ravashack) vs. Validi Reborn (Iced) : MindwandererB [7+7 vs. 9] Gatekeeper (Iced) & Anixx (Iced) vs. Virgo (King Uther) : Stormwind [8+8 vs. 10] Archdevil Asran (Zevox) & Aeryll (Mindwanderer) vs. Sdentch (TheMagister) : King Uther [7+7 vs. 9] ECL+ECL+ECL vs ECL+3 Pairings: Oriris (Iced) & Silis (Mindwanderer) & Ceilia (Zevox) vs. Dronnar (DSugui) : King Uther [3+3+3 vs. 6] Valek (DSugui) & Istima (Zevox) & Bolrak (Mindwanderer) vs. Evaine (Ariel23) : Stormwind [4+4+4 vs. 7] Rianna (Ariel23) & Death (NiQil) & Sir Alboreth (Zevox) vs. Gatekeeper (Iced) : Stormwind [5+5+5 vs. 8] Dronnar (DSugui) & Alagar (King Uther) & Zero (Mindwanderer) vs. Cyra Val (Stormwind) : Iced [6+6+6 vs. 9] Incomplete Evaine (Ariel23) & Perius (Ravashack) & Aeryll (Mindwanderer) vs. Virgo (King Uther) : Zevox [7+7+7 vs. 10] Special Pairings: Famine (NiQil) & Meinrad (Salrantol) vs. Zero (Mindwanderer) : Zevox [4+4 vs. 5] Sdentch (TheMagister) & Cyra Val (Stormwind) vs. Varia (Sindorin) : MindwandererB [9+9 vs. 10] Dronnar (DSugui) & Alagar (King Uther) & Zero (Mindwanderer) vs. Varia (Sindorin) : Stormwind [6+6+6 vs. 10] @Caterane: Above is the status of the Inter-league fights. For those fights that have been run I have listed the respective credit rewards below. (I'm fairly sure that these credits haven't been assigned yet.) Pitlords: - King Uther I = 2° - Mindwanderer III = 6° - Stormwind IIII = 8° - Zevox II =4°
Pitlords 06-27-06, 05:53 PM	@Caterane: Above is the status of the Inter-league fights. For those fights that have been run I have listed the respective credit rewards below. (I'm fairly sure that these credits haven't been assigned yet.) Credits assigned.