Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Hirumajoe 11-28-07, 05:22 PM	Please don't edit the sheet after the deadline or you will lose the match. News & Whatnot This space for rent. (PM me and I'll put it here). Rules of Gladius All that you need to know is written in the Rules of Gladius. It could be useful also to give a look to the Court Decisions Part 1 and Part 2. Please do not make fake accounts or insult the Elders. Pairings GM MindwandererB will pair the active Characters of Gladius after the deadline. Link to pairings. Make sure that your character is not in prison. Pitlording You should use the CoCo Dice Roller (http://www.hwx.it/wizards.com) for the fight. If you need it, there is a nice template ready to use that will help. You could find the Battle Map Tag Generator (http://www.hwx.it/coco) for dynamic Maps very useful. You must post a link to your fight in this thread when it is complete. If you need a quick and dirty tool to calculate distances between two points (in 2-D or 3-D), this tool (http://wormhole.ath.cx/coco/coco_dist.php) should suffice. Another useful link is the Quick Access tables for XP and Gold. If a fight needs to be rerun, the Pitlord has to inform the Pitlords account. He cannot react to requests from Players because the other player and the pitlord might disagree. He has no time to read the fight and the discussion. Please keep that in mind. PMs from players with rerun requests won't have an impact. Comments & Concerns Post any comments or concerns for this weeks fights in this thread. Be kind and courteous to your fellow posters, and don't feed the pitlords. Please remember that they do hard work and consume a lot of time to let you play. Above all, have FUN! If you have questions or comments on any of the changes, please make your posts be heard in the Council of Gladius!
Nurlithion 11-28-07, 05:55 PM	Well, my two characters Nemion and Quavein were only marked as ready for last week, but if no one minds the tactics a little late, I'll do them too.
MindWandererB 11-28-07, 06:01 PM	Pairings are done... almost. I need one more volunteer to take: Durzulgor I (Durzulgor) vs. Zodiac II (Vathelokai) : XXXXX [Arena] You'll also notice I've put up a playtest fight. Here's the procedure: whitebaron rolls up a CR 2 monster (you can use the table here). whitebaron will then PM the relevant Knowledge info to each of the three participants, based on the character copies in the playtest thread. lonewolf, Vath, and Taureus will then write tactics and PM them to whitebaron. The PCs can bring only class allies. In addition to normal fight setup procedure, whitebaron will roll three sets of random coordinates; since it's the sewers, that'll be 1d32 six times (X,Y x3). Reroll any that end up inside a wall. One of the monsters will be placed at each of the sets of coordinates. Each participant earns one point when they inflict a "defeated" status on one of the monsters. Anything less than "defeated" doesn't get you anything. The monster is then removed and another is placed at a new set of random coordinates. The fight ends at the end of round 30, or when all PCs are defeated. Don't worry about the fight being late--get your normal fights and tactics done first. No penalty. Credits: bgt F1 Callix F2 Erithmu F1 Q2 C3 Hirumajoe F2 lonewolf F2 Taureus_Drakken F3 templer10 F5 Vathelokai F1 Q2 whitebaron F4 A-1 Nurlithion A-1 Salrantol A-2 SauroGrenom A1 Q-1 TelinArtho C3 A1 Key: F=Fight, Q=Quest, C=Campaign, G=Guildmaster, A=Admin or Active Characters
Erithmu 11-28-07, 06:05 PM	@MWB: I'm running a full quest for Raskos, I think I forgot to PM you about it. Asking for a little grace, we figured out we were going to run it for sure last night.
lonewolf 11-28-07, 06:12 PM	@Templer: youre kinda stalking me this week. with my three active characters I have you once as an ally, once as an enemy, and once as a pitlord. :rolleyes: I will start on those team tactics now.
Hirumajoe 11-28-07, 06:20 PM	I'll guess I can take the last fight. Its a relatively low level one in the Arena, so it shouldn't be too bad.
Salrantol 11-28-07, 06:40 PM	Salrantol A-2Huh?
Erithmu 11-28-07, 06:47 PM	Huh? It is a credits thing. A-2 means that you pay/lose two credits. In this case it is due to having 4 characters active.
lonewolf 11-28-07, 06:50 PM	It is a credits thing. A-2 means that you pay/lose two credits. In this case it is due to having 4 characters active. but his miniquest is in week 2. There shouldnt be any extra credit costs for that.
Salrantol 11-28-07, 06:57 PM	And I made a mistake in leaving Enoch active without having taken him through the Training Hall to fix the troglodyte thing...can he be deactivated? I didn't see him on the list at first (since I wasn't looking for him).
Erithmu 11-28-07, 07:00 PM	That would be a MWB call ... I don't see why it couldn't. Also I didn't look into the MQ thing, I just assumed that it was a full quest or whatnot. Would make one less fight and then Hirum doesn't have to pick up the extra.
MindWandererB 11-28-07, 07:22 PM	Ah, missed that the quest was a holdover. Fixed. Enoch was clearly set to active... I don't like letting folks out of fights at this point because then they can try to avoid fighting opponents they don't like. If there's a detail that's screwy, please work it out with your pitlord and opponent as to a fair way to deal with it. Also: CrazyArtificer didn't set his title line to Ready, but wanted to be paired (it's his first character). I'm going to sub him in for Nemion's monster fight (sorry bgt--I know you requested a monster fight).
Taureus_Drakken 11-28-07, 07:28 PM	So with the monster fight, it's the three of us against 30 rounds of monsters? They keep spawning as long as there's time remaining, correct? So we aren't trying to incapacitate one another, just the monsters, correct? ~Taureus~
MindWandererB 11-28-07, 07:44 PM	So with the monster fight, it's the three of us against 30 rounds of monsters? They keep spawning as long as there's time remaining, correct? So we aren't trying to incapacitate one another, just the monsters, correct? ~Taureus~ Technically, yes. Although I just noticed that as written, a viable strategy might be to prevent an opponent from killing monsters might be to take down the opponent first.... I'm not sure whether the rules should be modified to prohibit "friendly fire." Let's play it as-is for now (attacking PCs is permitted) unless it turns out that this devolves the whole thing into an FFA. Correct on the other points as well... although I seriously doubt that the three of you have the stamina to survive constantly respawning CR 2 monsters for 30 rounds.
Taureus_Drakken 11-28-07, 09:40 PM	:P That list isn't all that terrible ;) . So we either devote our resources to furthering our own survival, or shortening that of the other PCs...To me it would make sense to get rid of the competition first, but seeing that I am up against Darian (yet again) I would rather just see who would get the most points in the 30 rounds. @ lonewolf and Vath: Wouldn't you agree? ~Taureus~
Vathelokai 11-28-07, 10:03 PM	Monster info for Malik of Black Robe ready and sent by PM... Malik of Black Robe (Malither76) vs. Unknown Monster : Vathelokai [Sewer] Know:nature and Know:local tells Malik that he is facing two half-giant warrior shape-changers and a dire tiger. Will put up post in a bit.
Vathelokai 11-28-07, 10:05 PM	:P That list isn't all that terrible ;) . So we either devote our resources to furthering our own survival, or shortening that of the other PCs...To me it would make sense to get rid of the competition first, but seeing that I am up against Darian (yet again) I would rather just see who would get the most points in the 30 rounds. @ lonewolf and Vath: Wouldn't you agree? ~Taureus~ I'm going to the 'get the most points and ignore the competition' this time.... this time.
MindWandererB 11-28-07, 10:27 PM	I'm going to the 'get the most points and ignore the competition' this time.... this time. So you say... <mwa ha ha ha>
Rauul 11-28-07, 10:56 PM	Technically, yes. Although I just noticed that as written, a viable strategy might be to prevent an opponent from killing monsters might be to take down the opponent first.... I'm not sure whether the rules should be modified to prohibit "friendly fire." Let's play it as-is for now (attacking PCs is permitted) unless it turns out that this devolves the whole thing into an FFA. Correct on the other points as well... although I seriously doubt that the three of you have the stamina to survive constantly respawning CR 2 monsters for 30 rounds. is recovery option in play for the fight? * Recovery Rules: In a challenge with recovery rules, a character who spends four consecutive rounds taking no actions (including if the character is dead, unconscious, or otherwise defeated), and without being attacked (attacks against defeated characters don't count), is teleported to their start box, healed to 1/2 of their maximum HP, and cured of any harmful effects.
MindWandererB 11-29-07, 12:46 AM	is recovery option in play for the fight? No; it would say in the challenge description if it was.
whitebaron 11-29-07, 01:45 AM	First of all: 1) [x] ban monsters from gladius, even if they have a pretty face. (gwerdan resigns, again) 2) i already have 2 fights(requested), 1 fight (offer), now 1 playtest - so don't expect to much this week from it as it is also includes a 4-player interleague... 3) i wouldnt' be to afraid of darian - his pps are limited after all, and the hunt is about stamina - which you don't have with such limited ressources. ;) @mwb: is every pp used or is it like 3fc?
templer10 11-29-07, 01:46 AM	Wiener Wadlbeisser (Team) - Monster has been rolled - Small abberation (psionic) that should make it fairly obvios. p.s - Yuck...
whitebaron 11-29-07, 02:04 AM	@t10: with lore+6 i should get the race for a cr6 monster. ;)
templer10 11-29-07, 02:09 AM	@t10: with lore+6 i should get the race for a cr6 monster. ;) 2 bad you are ECL 7 then lol. p.s - it really is extremly obvios.... Ill be accepting surrenders... (it's one of those sucks to be a party vs a monster designed as a party killer moments).
whitebaron 11-29-07, 02:14 AM	ah, yes, we leveled... to bad. basic monster info for hunt: two-legged, medium. will be looking ino knowledges later.
Callix 11-29-07, 02:31 AM	@whitebaron: Tactics for Rennae and Petyr are away. Rennae vs Gortek should be a quick fight, and Petyr vs Ssassetar is on the Plains, so there's not too much tricky stuff that can go on there. Bad luck about the team interleague and the draw.
whitebaron 11-29-07, 02:46 AM	p.s - it really is extremly obvios.... Ill be accepting surrenders... (it's one of those sucks to be a party vs a monster designed as a party killer moments). from what i've seen, monster fights are pretty much autolosses unless you get very lucky ... you could at least give us a reroll. ;) i don't get that monster-fighting anyway. why is it you can only have a CR-4 ally, ECL-2 ally, but still get to fight ECL=x and CR=x monsters? it's like measuring with two different scales here - if monsters are ok to fight against with their original CR, then allies should be ok to be brought in as well.
templer10 11-29-07, 03:10 AM	from what i've seen, monster fights are pretty much autolosses unless you get very lucky ... you could at least give us a reroll. ;) i don't get that monster-fighting anyway. why is it you can only have a CR-4 ally, ECL-2 ally, but still get to fight ECL=x and CR=x monsters? it's like measuring with two different scales here - if monsters are ok to fight against with their original CR, then allies should be ok to be brought in as well. lol- i feel exacly the same - unfourtently - i cant reroll for an autoloss for the player - just for the monster - i dont like it - but those are the rules. and about the monster fights - against a party - yea they are mosty an autolosss even when you dont get something as obviosly Broken to hell and back as you got. (due to lower levels of the party) vs a single char it's depend on the char - a non caster type - mostly an autoloss, a caster type - around 50-50. p.s - i argued about the monster CR thing more then a few times before and it didnt help me, i guess its just your time to eat a loss.
MindWandererB 11-29-07, 03:32 AM	@mwb: is every pp used or is it like 3fc?I hadn't thought of that, but it would have to be 3fc rules for balance.from what i've seen, monster fights are pretty much autolosses unless you get very lucky ... you could at least give us a reroll. ;)They're still running at about 50/50, so you don't have to be all that lucky.i don't get that monster-fighting anyway. why is it you can only have a CR-4 ally, ECL-2 ally, but still get to fight ECL=x and CR=x monsters? it's like measuring with two different scales here - if monsters are ok to fight against with their original CR, then allies should be ok to be brought in as well.Um, because if you had an ally of your own ECL, you'd be twice as strong? That'd be pretty silly. The logic goes like this: A PC fighting a PC fights a PC of their own ECL. An NPC of your own ECL is considered to have a CR equal to your own ECL. So a creature with a CR equal to your own ECL should be roughly as strong as a PC of your own ECL.
templer10 11-29-07, 03:36 AM	The logic goes like this: A PC fighting a PC fights a PC of their own ECL. An NPC of your own ECL is considered to have a CR equal to your own ECL. So a creature with a CR equal to your own ECL should be roughly as strong as a PC of your own ECL. Lol - thats SO not true from any practical standpoint and you know it - A NPC even with all regular class levels has a 25 pts buy versus our 36 point buy which means it's around 1 CR lower then a normal char. a monster on the other hand is quite often significantly Higher in ECL then the opposion player - so in a 1 VS 1 situation it has a significant advantage. p.s - do i even need to mention dragons?
lonewolf 11-29-07, 03:55 AM	I would say that monster fights are about 40% autowins, 40% autolosses and 20% where both have a fighting chance. The main problem that I have is a new tendency from pitlords to reroll monsters if the player has an advantage, even if its not that serious. The examples when to do a reroll are pretty extreme, and rerolls should be much more rare than they are now. We need these fights with player advantage to balance out monster autowins.
MindWandererB 11-29-07, 03:55 AM	Lol - thats SO not true from any practical standpoint and you know it - A NPC even with all regular class levels has a 25 pts buy versus our 36 point buy which means it's around 1 CR lower then a normal char. a monster on the other hand is quite often significantly Higher in ECL then the opposion player - so in a 1 VS 1 situation it has a significant advantage. p.s - do i even need to mention dragons? Except that in a "default" D&D game, PCs use 25-point buy (or 4d6 drop 1). So our characters are more powerful than normal, and should theoretically be stronger than a monster with CR equal to their ECL. If anything is screwed up, it's the CR system in the first place. Monsters of equal CR of are of drastically varying difficulty, although they're still usually weaker than a party. Intelligent opponents with a full supply of equipment are the second-worst offenders (the worst being abusive templates and advancement). I've always thought it was absurd that monsters are playtested as written, but in game you're supposed to let them use any equipment thay may have. I'd still be in favor of stripping some of that down here. Edit: lonewolf does have a good point. "Autowin" for the purpose of rerolling means exactly that--that there's absolutely no way for the monster to win. A monster with no ranged attack against a flying opponent, a Huge creature in the sewers too slow to catch up to an opponent, a creature with no magic equipment against an incorporeal opponent--these are the things that should be rerolled. A creature that might, in theory, win, if its rolls were incredibly lucky and the PC's were incredibly unlucky, should be kept.
whitebaron 11-29-07, 04:07 AM	The logic goes like this: A PC fighting a PC fights a PC of their own ECL. An NPC of your own ECL is considered to have a CR equal to your own ECL. So a creature with a CR equal to your own ECL should be roughly as strong as a PC of your own ECL. flaws in the logic: 1) you can have an ally with ECL-2, but CR-4. you said an ally with ECL=x has the same CR = x. so monsters are punished as allies, even if you say they are as strong as the humanoids? (same CR, remember?) 2) CR was never based off an individual encounter. while same ECL means roughly same strength, same CR has other implications. after all, CR is based on a PARTY, which should be able to do 3 encounters of their average ECL as CR per day. so if you remove 3/4ths of the party, the monster is obviously at least 3/4th stronger than intended, if not more. the main problem i have with monster fights, is that they are boring. either the monster autowins, or the player. - as lonewolfs figures go, 80% of the monster fights are that way. wouldn't it be better then, to just give out random "wildcard"-xp for unpaired players and call it a day - the impact on gladius would be the same, except you could not lose PR to a monster.
Callix 11-29-07, 04:08 AM	Speaking of autolosses... Flutterthought's Autowin is now official. I can do detailed 3FC info if anyone wants me to, but it's both of their last fights for the cycle, so I thought I'd let it slide.
whitebaron 11-29-07, 04:14 AM	Speaking of autolosses... Flutterthought's Autowin is now official. I can do detailed 3FC info if anyone wants me to, but it's both of their last fights for the cycle, so I thought I'd let it slide. well, i should have disabled gwerdan when i knew that she'd be active, but since he's my main-char here, i just had to take my chance with pairings. advanced monster info for playtest sent via pm. remnant just does not have any applicable knowledges, sorry.
templer10 11-29-07, 04:53 AM	flaws in the logic: the main problem i have with monster fights, is that they are boring. either the monster autowins, or the player. - as lonewolfs figures go, 80% of the monster fights are that way. wouldn't it be better then, to just give out random "wildcard"-xp for unpaired players and call it a day - the impact on gladius would be the same, except you could not lose PR to a monster. I dont think you should get "wildcard" xp as you put it but one solution is to make it so that monster fights doesnt affect a char's win/loss and PR rating - then the worst you can do in a monster fight is getting a little less XP. And it can turn from annyng peeps and a sure fire way to ruin peeps records (it what gave ALL of my GR's some/most of thier losses) to a fun diversion form the "real" combat.
mucki 11-29-07, 06:19 AM	Regarding our fight: we won't give up. If we die, we can at least die trying :) You'll get tactics by me tomorrow.
templer10 11-29-07, 06:27 AM	Regarding our fight: we won't give up. If we die, we can at least die trying :) You'll get tactics by me tomorrow. Well if you make it iL frankly be amazed - the monster tactics are already written and first team/pair of gladiators that send me tacitcs will get their fight run at friday.
Salrantol 11-29-07, 06:40 AM	i don't get that monster-fighting anyway. why is it you can only have a CR-4 ally, ECL-2 ally, but still get to fight ECL=x and CR=x monsters? it's like measuring with two different scales here - if monsters are ok to fight against with their original CR, then allies should be ok to be brought in as well.Oh, it's worse than that. In Kilor's EL 7 miniquest, her opponent has CR 7, but, if made as a character, would be ECL 13--so she could theoretically face an identical opponent in the arena...in 6 levels....
Stormwind 11-29-07, 07:00 AM	@whitebaron: Tactics for Varjo sent. Should be an interesting fight.
hogarth 11-29-07, 07:14 AM	Edit: lonewolf does have a good point. "Autowin" for the purpose of rerolling means exactly that--that there's absolutely no way for the monster to win. A monster with no ranged attack against a flying opponent, a Huge creature in the sewers too slow to catch up to an opponent, a creature with no magic equipment against an incorporeal opponent--these are the things that should be rerolled. A creature that might, in theory, win, if its rolls were incredibly lucky and the PC's were incredibly unlucky, should be kept. That's why I was peeved when McJarvis threw away an ettin + 2 bears because he figured an 8th-level character can probably fly (leaving aside the ettin's ranged attack). BUT -- the Rules of Gladius say something different about rerolling: Rerolls: It might happen that the monster is too weak on the set map. For example, a pair of Dire Bears have little chance against a flying archer on the Plains map. Likewise, a gargantuan centipede is worm food in the sewer. If you roll a monster that is obviously seriously handicapped because of the map, then roll again. Note that it says "seriously handicapped", not "absolutely zero chance of winning".
lonewolf 11-29-07, 07:59 AM	As pitlord, I wouldnt have rerolled that one and I believe that it shouldnt have been done. I didnt say anything because after the fight was done there was no way to change it, but for future fights, I´d like the pitlords to think longer if the monster really has no chance before he rerolls. And only then should a reroll be done. We should clarify the rules to say this. @Erithmu: tactics for The Chameleon are sent. If I know templer correctly, I guess his tactics for Elrick will be about 3 times as long as mine. ;)
whitebaron 11-29-07, 08:10 AM	@Erithmu: tactics for The Chameleon are sent. If I know templer correctly, I guess his tactics for Elrick will be about 3 times as long as mine. ;) well. tactics for chameleon need about 10 words :) compression,spider climb,chameleon. hide, snipe, move, hide, rinse repeat. @sal: well, i feel with you. but there are many things that are not optimal here. monster fights are just the worst way to lose a fight... you know upfront it is supposed to be stronger than you, at any given ecl. just because you might get an easy one, doesn't change much. our opponent of the team would be ecl12 in the arena. but is cr7, too.
McJarvis 11-29-07, 08:36 AM	If you are facing a team of monsters and you will autowin against any of them I will reroll the fight by default. The Ettin itself had nothing to do with the reroll- the autowin vs his teammates did. (because I would consider an effective reduction in CR as a "serious handicap"- as you pointed out this is grounds for rerolling. I also have issues with rewarding win xp for a gladiator who only actually had to face a portion of the combat. Also note that it is impossible for pitlords to "consider longer" whether a monster is an autowin or not b/c of our rules on tactic writing & not looking at character sheets beforehand. It forces the pitlord to effectively make a judgement call on whether a monster _should_ be an autowin for its level. As far as monster fights in general go- I think the whole system needs to be scrapped. Nobody seems to like them, and they are a huge drain on pitlord resources.
templer10 11-29-07, 08:41 AM	@Erithmu: tactics for The Chameleon are sent. If I know templer correctly, I guess his tactics for Elrick will be about 3 times as long as mine. ;) That's fairly likely.... ALthrough i didnt see chamelon active this week or i might have not gone active with Elrick iam sick of fighting sneaks... I have to decide if i want to make this a Very very LONG fight or not since knowing your tactics it will take you a while to kill me no matter what you do since sneak attack dice you ARENT getting... (not on this map anyway) and time plays in my favor here.
TelinArtho 11-29-07, 10:01 AM	Just so that there is not a skewed perception here - I will speak up now and say that I rather enjoy having monster fights in the mix. I have my reasons for liking them.
whitebaron 11-29-07, 10:16 AM	I have my reasons for liking them. care to share them? basically, i'd like monster fights. what i don't like, is what type of monsters you get in coco. every single monster fight i have seen since i'm at coco was decided when the monster was rolled. also, the system used here to generate opponents is strange. you use CR and ECL mixed in the tables, but on the other hand mwb says that CR != ECL. so be glad if you get a monster without special adjustments, or one with many class levels. - monster fights per se - ok - monster fights as they are now - *ugh* CR was one of the worst inventions WOTC ever did. i liked flat xp more than that.
McJarvis 11-29-07, 10:22 AM	care to share them? basically, i'd like monster fights. what i don't like, is what type of monsters you get in coco. every single monster fight i have seen since i'm at coco was decided when the monster was rolled. also, the system used here to generate opponents is strange. you use CR and ECL mixed in the tables, but on the other hand mwb says that CR != ECL. so be glad if you get a monster without special adjustments, or one with many class levels. - monster fights per se - ok - monster fights as they are now - *ugh* CR was one of the worst inventions WOTC ever did. i liked flat xp more than that. CR and ECL are not mixed on the tables. [I'm ~90% sure on that] The fact that CR and ECL both take into account class levels can be confusing, though. I suppose a pretty striking difference is this: Let's make an ECL15 Vampire-Elf Monk and a CR15 Vampire-Elf Monk. [to demonstrate how ECL != CR ECL Monk: 36 pt buy, level 15 PC wealth(210,000 gp) , 7 levels monk, +8 LA CR Monk: Elite array, level 15 NPC wealth(59,000 gp), 13 Monk levels, +2 CR adj Which is better? Well, the vamp template is pretty harsh- but that's a ton more wealth that the ECL guy has. (and better stats too) The reason we say that ECL != CR is that the ECL monk doesn't have a CR of 15 [and vice-versa]. [Also note that I chose Vampire specifically because they have a large divergence on the LA/CR scale] Under our current rules, I'm not even sure that you could assign a CR to the ECL guy. [Wealth and stats are the prime differences between CR and ECL, other than different # stats]
TelinArtho 11-29-07, 10:40 AM	Points that I like about Monster Fights: 1. Variety. Without monster fights, you can know for certain what types of enemies you will be facing in the upcoming 1-3 fights and plan explicitly for them. If I don't have any chance of facing something with DR/Silver - why should I pack weapons to deal with it? If I'm not facing anyone with magic or expendables, why should I memorize Dispel Magic? etc. Having a distinct monster list for each level means that everyone needs to prepare for everything. This variety helps too. If people faced invisible creatures more often in the lower levels, they wouldn't balk at facing the occasional pixie around ECL5 or 6. In other words, the monster lists give you something more to prepare for than just the run-of-the-mill gladiators that you might run over. 2. Variety. Same thing eh? Essentially my big plus for monster fights is the variety they give. Some look at monster fights as black and white - I see them as many shades of gray. Finding a way to succeed against a seemingly impossible foe is a great challenge. (I have more - but don't have much time right now)
whitebaron 11-29-07, 11:08 AM	@mcj - example: 1 Halforc Druid 2 (w/ dire rat companion) & 1 Orc Barbarian2 [CR2] vs. 2 white dragon wyrmlings 1 Blue Shaper 5 [CR5] vs. 2 Black, Blue, Brass, Bronze, or Green Dragon, Wyrmling [CR3] same cr, different ecls. the same dragons would, without really changing their dangerousness be ECL 5 each = CR 7. @telin: variety is nice. autowins aren't. even with much preparing, there are many setups that are just plain deadly if you have no full group to handle the monster. using ecl = cr is nice for a group, but it should not be done like that for single encounters. CR always is estimated to be vs. a balanced group, i.e. 1 fighter, 1 cleric, 1 wizard, 1 rogue. to say that monster fights in coco are balanced would be a grave overstatement. ps: don't try to use my resignation against the pixie as argumentation. i am so not willing to pay credits for a custom item, or lots of gold on a hand of glory just because of one opponent. i knew it could happen, and it did. i will think about invisibility with gwerdan once i hit ecl7 = greater invis. before, most gladiators can only be invisible until the first hit - and that's ok with me. by comparison, this would be like telling archers to reverse their build just so they can avoid my deflect arrows - it's no use, they know that they have weaknesses.
McJarvis 11-29-07, 11:12 AM	@mcj - example: 1 Halforc Druid 2 (w/ dire rat companion) & 1 Orc Barbarian2 [CR2] vs. 2 white dragon wyrmlings 1 Blue Shaper 5 [CR5] vs. 2 Black, Blue, Brass, Bronze, or Green Dragon, Wyrmling [CR3] same cr, different ecls. the same dragons would, without really changing their dangerousness be ECL 5 each = CR 7. I'm not really sure what this is an example of. As I stated in the example I put forth: you can't convert a creature created with an ECL to a CR that easily. [the CR 15 vamp monk could not be considered an ECL 15 character- or any ECL for that matter]. The initial stats & wealth don't translate(I don't believe)
TelinArtho 11-29-07, 11:16 AM	I wasn't using your specific resignation against a pixie as an example above. Rather - I was using the specific case of a pixie in the mix. They have always been a source of difficulty for players because they frequently didn't reserve a method to discover them effectively at the levels when pixies could first be encountered. Yours is not the first surrender vs a pixie in the CoCo - and it likely won't be the last. As for autowins - in my opinion there are far fewer auto-win monsters on the monster lists than there seems to be. A good many of the surrendered monster fights that I've seen were certainly winnable - but the player didn't like monster fights and therefore didn't see the point in writing effective tactics. A good many of the "auto-win" monsters at a particular ECL are in fact quite beatable when faced with prepared characters.
whitebaron 11-29-07, 11:25 AM	@mcj: compare two ecl5 dragon wyrmlings to two cr2 wyrmlings. they are about the same difficulty to beat. but they would be 3 leagues apart in the coco! while equipment makes one stronger, and point buy gives one additional power, it's far less than a level gives you. @telin: well, spending 8000 gp to have a chance to realise where your opponent is, isn't it a nice way to spend your money? spend another 8000 for a ghost touch weapon, +money you don't have on fly, +money you still don't have on an adamantine weapon. you can be prepared for opponents you know will come, like bulgar on his quest. but to be prepared for all things to come, neither money nor extreme multiclassing is enough. and you'd need some more of those counters or it IS an autowin.
Hirumajoe 11-29-07, 11:32 AM	As for autowins - in my opinion there are far fewer auto-win monsters on the monster lists than there seems to be. A good many of the surrendered monster fights that I've seen were certainly winnable - but the player didn't like monster fights and therefore didn't see the point in writing effective tactics. A good many of the "auto-win" monsters at a particular ECL are in fact quite beatable when faced with prepared characters. Of course, having sufficient skills to identify the monsters correctly is a larger hurdle for some builds (non- bards, wizards, psions). I've also wondered about the legality of tactics which are split into parts based on what the monster looks like once you actually engaged it. Since you presumably couldn't identify it when you looked at it before (else how did you get the description) why can you suddenly identify it in the heat of combat and use appropriate tactics? In principle, anyone could write 10 times the tactics for say, the 10 possible medium humanoids at ECL 12. (If it has a dog head do this, if it is skeletal and has no flesh do this, etc). But the pitlord isn't going to want to read through 10 PMs of tactics, nor does the player want to spend 3 hours writing them all. So it wouldn't surprise me if effective tactics sometimes aren't simply worth the time in real life. Of course, this really isn't an argument against monster fights, but rather the information available going in. Since thats another significant difference between normal and monster fights. The last difference is the fact that attack/defend packages don't work on them (but free activities do - burglary does to my knowledge), which is another mark against players (but not monsters - since they're never built with them in mind anyways). Actually, would it be legal to hire a level 1 NPC Human expert with all the relevant monster knowledge skills maxed and use him to identify monsters before hand? Or heck, buy a book of monsters (Monster Manual anyone?)
TelinArtho 11-29-07, 11:35 AM	Did I say anywhere that you need to invest 8000gp on a hand of glory in order to deal with a greater invisibility foe? Having a decent listen check can be all you need to pinpoint your opponent. If you don't have that - summoned creatures with scent or tremorsense or blindsense can be very useful. If you don't have that - a simple guard dog or another animal with scent would work. Heck - a solid flat-footed AC can be almost good enough to make it work (see Kraegin's fight vs Noko...). Why do you need a ghost-touch weapon? If you often fight incorporeals - yes they can be nice, but often a magic weapon will be good enough (since incorporeals often suffer from a lack of a lot of hp). Fly? Honestly, there's very few maps where an opponent can flat out stay out of range of all of your abilities, unless you are specifically focused on melee and they are specifically focused on range. If you are specifically focused on melee and can't afford a means to force that melee - then your focus is wasted. Adamantine weapon? Probably the worst example because there are just so few that have that kind of DR and when they do become "more common" (golems and stoneskin) - the 3000gp is a relatively minor expense. Below, I've included a brief synopsis of my experience as a character in monster fights. Over the course of my existence in the CoCo, I have had my characters face off against a dozen monsters. With lonewolf's broad declaration that 40% were auto-wins for the player, 40% were auto-wins for the monsters and 20% were toss-ups, I'll give you my interpretation: To my knowledge, only 1 of my fights was rerolled as an "auto-win" for the character. This was against Kraegin and was a group of 4 Hobgoblin Werewolf Fighter 4s. I disagreed that they would be an auto-win against Kraegin (especially on the small map of the cavern), but that's the one that I know of. Of the fights I've had, there is only one that I would consider an "auto-win" for the monster - the Bralani and Vampire Fighter 5 vs Brilf (ECL7) and Aquin (version 1) (ECL6) - but only because neither character had no effective means to harm either opponent (we were badly prepared). The remaining 11 were reasonable fights that had a chance to go either way: 4 Derro vs Aquin (version 1) 10-headed Hydra vs Aquin (version 2) Gray Ooze vs Bulgar Hell Hound vs Daeren (old monster fight rules) Young White Dragon vs Daeren (old monster fight rules) 3 Ghasts vs Daeren (old monster fight rules) 2 Megaraptors vs Jar-red Half-Silver Dragon Black Pudding vs Kraegin 4 Phrenic Wraiths vs Kraegin Guardian Naga vs Kraegin Half-Celestial Satyr vs Zax
hogarth 11-29-07, 11:46 AM	Can we take the "I hate monster fights"/"I like monster fights" discussion to the Council thread? I hate searching for a specific post on a subject only to find it buried deep within a "Fight of the Week" thread. :)
CrazyArtificer 11-29-07, 03:54 PM	@bgt: tactics sent. Let me know if you have some question/doubt on my char :)
templer10 11-29-07, 05:33 PM	Hirumajoe - tactics for Longshot vs baelin are out - should be short.
Turanson 11-29-07, 05:38 PM	@temp tatcits for Mineau vs. Platon sent
Rauul 11-29-07, 07:20 PM	@temp tatcits for Mineau vs. Platon sent Ditto... tactics sent
Rauul 11-29-07, 07:33 PM	@whitebaron tactics for Gortek sent
mucki 11-30-07, 09:41 AM	@templer10: tactics for the team are sent. If you have questions, pm me.
hogarth 11-30-07, 10:46 AM	@Taureus_Drakken: tactics sent for Balthazar Picsou
whitebaron 11-30-07, 10:50 AM	@Taureus_Drakken: tactics sent for Balthazar Picsou trying to use my not so super-insight, i'll see all his tactics and make this a superior win when i write up tactics within the next hour. ;) (you can hope, right? )
Macbrea 11-30-07, 11:29 AM	@templer10: I would assume that my tactics posted from the last two weeks should suffice for Yorick. :P
templer10 11-30-07, 12:30 PM	@templer10: I would assume that my tactics posted from the last two weeks should suffice for Yorick. :P Mind linking them to me then? (iam lazy). Rith - tactics for Elrick might be slightly late - iam attending to familial obligations.
Erithmu 11-30-07, 12:47 PM	Mind linking them to me then? (iam lazy). Rith - tactics for Elrick might be slightly late - iam attending to familial obligations. Take care of business ... I'm going to be probably later in this week as well ... the joy of finals week :pbbbtt:
whitebaron 11-30-07, 12:52 PM	@taureus: tactics for interleague sent. missing for my fights: tactics for interleague, ssassetar
Macbrea 11-30-07, 01:26 PM	@templer10: Tactics posted last week for fight was here.
Stormwind 11-30-07, 01:27 PM	@taureus: tactics for interleague sent. missing for my fights: tactics for interleague, ssassetar @whitebaron: Have you received Varjo's tactics for the interleague?
whitebaron 11-30-07, 01:40 PM	@whitebaron: Have you received Varjo's tactics for the interleague? ah, yes. make it "tactics for team+darian for interleague".
john_045412 11-30-07, 02:50 PM	New to this... @ Taureus_Drakken tactics for Kron sent via PM (yesterday)
Hirumajoe 11-30-07, 02:52 PM	@Lonewolf: Tactics for Valen sent. @Callix: Tactics for Kai sent.
whitebaron 11-30-07, 03:06 PM	tactics from team for interleague received. @stormwind: clarifications requested. @all: pls help an already nearly insane pitlord in the tavern. (and the fight has not even started yet)
Salrantol 11-30-07, 03:06 PM	@lonewolf: Correct tactics for Enoch the Prophet sent. @templer10: Tactics for Meinrad the Many-Fisted sent, don't be surprised if lonewolf sent them to you also....:rolleyes:
templer10 11-30-07, 04:11 PM	Rith - tactics for Elrick vs Chamelon are out - that's going to be a hard fight to run. p.s - forgot to mentione - summons are All augmanted.
lonewolf 11-30-07, 04:44 PM	@templer: I would argue that an intellect devourer cannot drink potions. It just has no limbs capeable to holding them. Anyone disagrees?
McJarvis 11-30-07, 04:47 PM	@templer: I would argue that an intellect devourer cannot drink potions. It just has no limbs capeable to holding them. Anyone disagrees? I believe I've heard hogarth(and telin/various others?) mention before that as long as the thing can "chomp down" on the potion, it can use it. Personally I've always disagreed with this- but it is popular opinion.
Macbrea 11-30-07, 04:52 PM	A creature with a mouth can eat the bottle with the potion in it. And therefore consume the potion. Note: an intellect devourer doesn't have a mouth. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/xph_gallery/33557.jpg
lonewolf 11-30-07, 04:52 PM	I believe I've heard hogarth(and telin/various others?) mention before that as long as the thing can "chomp down" on the potion, it can use it. Personally I've always disagreed with this- but it is popular opinion. looking at the picture, I dont even see a mouth to drink the potion... EDIT: Ninja`d. But IMHO any creature swallowing a glass potion and breaking the glass to gain the effects of the liquid should suffer from massive internal injuries as the glass cuts through the intestins...
McJarvis 11-30-07, 05:01 PM	EDIT: Ninja`d. But IMHO any creature swallowing a glass potion and breaking the glass to gain the effects of the liquid should suffer from massive internal injuries as the glass cuts through the intestins... These are my sentiments as well.
hogarth 11-30-07, 05:15 PM	I believe I've heard hogarth(and telin/various others?) mention before that as long as the thing can "chomp down" on the potion, it can use it. Personally I've always disagreed with this- but it is popular opinion. Wait... My opinion would be to allow it for PCs (presumably the potion would be in a wineskin, not a bottle), but frown on it for NPCs. I certainly thought it was ridiculous when Telin had a pack of Cloakers drinking potions! P.S. Your disagreement with monsters drinking potions didn't stop you from giving one to a certain manticore if I recall correctly... :)
templer10 11-30-07, 05:26 PM	@templer: I would argue that an intellect devourer cannot drink potions. It just has no limbs capeable to holding them. Anyone disagrees? WEll repleace those potions with tattoes of force screen and inertial armor - it has wealth to spare and it doesnt make a bit of diffrence anyway - you never stood a chance. and obviosly WW vs Bob the intellect devourer is up.
Salrantol 11-30-07, 06:41 PM	P.S. Your disagreement with monsters drinking potions didn't stop you from giving one to a certain manticore if I recall correctly... :)At least whenever I have given monsters without hands potions, I gave them a hand of the mage. Solves any question of their ability to use the potion.
McJarvis 11-30-07, 07:17 PM	P.S. Your disagreement with monsters drinking potions didn't stop you from giving one to a certain manticore if I recall correctly... :) I also don't approve of cloaks on cloakers- but did so because an elder told me it was a potential slot. I don't use pitlording to promote ideas that I like- but rather merely enact the rules as people seem to understand them. [or as they explicitly tell me to] I'd be all for saying you need hands to drink a potion- and if such rules were enacted, I would abide by them. In the same way- I'm not opposed to "standard tactics for creatures based on intelligence"- what I AM against is pitlord interpretation of how much a creature should be penalized- especially if nothing is in the rules about pitlords "RPing" monster int.
Taureus_Drakken 11-30-07, 07:47 PM	@ My Fighters: All tactics in. Setup will be done shortly for all fights. Will probably be done late Monday. @ whitebaron: For the Playtest, I just send tactics, as usual, based on the monster info I got via PM, correct? ~Taureus~
MindWandererB 12-01-07, 12:32 AM	@ whitebaron: For the Playtest, I just send tactics, as usual, based on the monster info I got via PM, correct?Correct, although remember that your objectives are different.
mucki 12-01-07, 04:27 AM	Well, thanks for the run templer10. Could you please edit what i actually crafted into the fight results? Falko will need to link his item to this post.
templer10 12-01-07, 10:36 AM	Platon vs mineau is done (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14472920&postcount=1521).
Vathelokai 12-01-07, 11:00 AM	@whitebaron: will get playtest tactics to you later today.
Rauul 12-01-07, 12:07 PM	Platon vs mineau is done (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14472920&postcount=1521). Thanks for the run... but what happened to the Spiritual weapon attack in rd 5 that would of passably disrupted the sleep spell or ended it.. It strikes the opponent you designate, starting with one attack in the round the spell is cast and continuing each round thereafter on your turn. It uses your base attack bonus (possibly allowing it multiple attacks per round in subsequent rounds) plus your Wisdom modifier as its attack bonus. It strikes as a spell, not as a weapon, so, for example, it can damage creatures that have damage reduction. As a force effect, it can strike incorporeal creatures without the normal miss chance associated with incorporeality. The weapon always strikes from your direction. It does not get a flanking bonus or help a combatant get one. Your feats or combat actions do not affect the weapon. If the weapon goes beyond the spell range, if it goes out of your sight, or if you are not directing it, the weapon returns to you and hovers. Now i am assuming that i didn't loose LOS on my target since i saw him and casted it.. and he started casting a full round spell..
templer10 12-01-07, 12:22 PM	Thanks for the run... but what happened to the Spiritual weapon attack in rd 5 that would of passably disrupted the sleep spell or ended it.. i just forgot lol - i did spir weapon attacks for round 5 and 6 (althrough iam not sure it should attack when you are asleep) - didnt do enough damage to matter and the hit at round 5 didnt intterupt the spell
whitebaron 12-01-07, 12:59 PM	Gortek Chaoslayer(Rauul) vs. Rennae Longhollow(Callix) nothing unexpected - 18 pp for egowhip against cha:6, will:3
Rauul 12-01-07, 01:28 PM	i just forgot lol - i did spir weapon attacks for round 5 and 6 (althrough iam not sure it should attack when you are asleep) - didnt do enough damage to matter and the hit at round 5 didnt intterupt the spell ok i see them on the roller But i do have a Question... how do you CDG with a Spell... when CDG specificly saids with a weapon.. taking the Shocking grasp damage would still leave gortek alive.. (can't ctit with a spell till 4e)
Rauul 12-01-07, 01:29 PM	Gortek Chaoslayer(Rauul) vs. Rennae Longhollow(Callix) nothing unexpected - 18 pp for egowhip against cha:6, will:3 totally expected....
Eamane 12-01-07, 01:34 PM	ok i see them on the roller But i do have a Question... how do you CDG with a Spell... when CDG specificly saids with a weapon.. taking the Shocking grasp damage would still leave gortek alive.. (can't ctit with a spell till 4e) A touch attack (the release part of the shocking grasp spell) can be used for a CDG action; mind, they would have to hold the charge as you cant cast a spell and CDG in the same turn.
templer10 12-01-07, 01:35 PM	ok i see them on the roller But i do have a Question... how do you CDG with a Spell... when CDG specificly saids with a weapon.. taking the Shocking grasp damage would still leave gortek alive.. (can't ctit with a spell till 4e) Actually a spell that uses an attack roll Can Crit - iam just not sure if it's listed only in Splat books or in the SRD also - but i defninently seen it happen around here, I also don't see a problem with CDGing with a spell -that was done here multiple times, So unless an elder majority wants to tell me otherwise... In any case he had a crossbow and if it's not possible to CDG with a spell he could CDG with the XBow - you failed on the Fort save no matter what dmg result it was.
whitebaron 12-01-07, 02:10 PM	Actually a spell that uses an attack roll Can Crit - iam just not sure if it's listed only in Splat books or in the SRD also - but i defninently seen it happen around here, I also don't see a problem with CDGing with a spell -that was done here multiple times, cdg with spell is ok, as long as it is a spell where you can hold the charge. cdg is a full round action, so you cannot do anything else then. but what attack form you use is entirely up to you. sorry callix: Petyr vs. Ssassetar Petyr d20: 9 rolls, 7.7 average d12: 3 rolls, 4 average Ssassetar d4: 4 rolls, 3.3 average d20: 19 rolls, 11 average go figure...
Rauul 12-01-07, 02:40 PM	Actually a spell that uses an attack roll Can Crit - iam just not sure if it's listed only in Splat books or in the SRD also - but i defninently seen it happen around here, I also don't see a problem with CDGing with a spell -that was done here multiple times, So unless an elder majority wants to tell me otherwise... In any case he had a crossbow and if it's not possible to CDG with a spell he could CDG with the XBow - you failed on the Fort save no matter what dmg result it was. from the SRD Coup de Grace As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target. You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace. Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents. You can’t deliver a coup de grace against a creature that is immune to critical hits. You can deliver a coup de grace against a creature with total concealment, but doing this requires two consecutive full-round actions (one to "find" the creature once you’ve determined what square it’s in, and one to deliver the coup de grace). i realize platon failed the save.. i just want it to be right..
Turanson 12-01-07, 03:47 PM	Platon vs mineau is done (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14472920&postcount=1521). thanks for the run. @Rauul: I completely understand you, I also think it's a weird rule ( I think of CDG as putting my crossbow at the other persons throat, and that just does not seem to mather with spells) but as I've seen it used before I just used it as it was my best option.
hogarth 12-01-07, 05:29 PM	cdg with spell is ok, as long as it is a spell where you can hold the charge. I agree with you. But then again, I think you can do an assassin's Death Attack with a touch spell, so what do I know? :P
lonewolf 12-01-07, 07:07 PM	@Sauro: Im still missing Kracknols tactics. If I dont recieve them by the time I am finished with my other fight, this will be an autoloss. EDIT: tactics recieved.
Callix 12-02-07, 04:32 AM	sorry callix: Petyr vs. Ssassetar Petyr d20: 9 rolls, 7.7 average d12: 3 rolls, 4 average Ssassetar d4: 4 rolls, 3.3 average d20: 19 rolls, 11 average go figure... The dice gods hate me... Thanks for the run. The whole "roll-a-3-when-a-9-or-higher-kills-him" thing can really annoy sometimes. And on Rennae's fight? What can I say? Psion vs Barbarian is one of the best matchups in CoCo, and Rennae had the (good/bad) luck to be incapacitated in one hit by Eamane's new creation. Also, Rennae's not even on her last fight: she has 16 pp left for fight 3. @Rauul: Bad luck, man. There's only one thing Rennae can handle well, and that's melee beaters. @Hirumajoe, TDD: Tactics recieved. Working on it...
Nurlithion 12-02-07, 06:10 AM	@Whitebaron Thanks for running. Not that it matters now, since I've won, but I didn't mean to hold the spell indefinitly. What I meant was that I kept getting the bonus on attack rolls until I missed. Holding the Charge: If you don’t discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the discharge of the spell (hold the charge) indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren’t considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. (If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack.) If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge. Also, for the familiar, I understand it may have beein a little over the top to allow him to attack and hold the potion at the same time. You also seem to have forgotten to put the Shocking Grasp bonus on any of the attacks, but I understand that my tactics were a bit unclear.
Callix 12-02-07, 07:01 AM	Kai Engel vs Snaga is up. Three little words say it all: Air Strike Confirmed.
lonewolf 12-02-07, 09:29 AM	First part of Valen Sky vs Kracknol is up. Sauro do you wanna surrender at this point?
whitebaron 12-02-07, 11:20 AM	You also seem to have forgotten to put the Shocking Grasp bonus on any of the attacks, but I understand that my tactics were a bit unclear. in my understanding of the rules, you only get the bonus of shocking grasp if you attack WITH it. if you hold the charge, and attack otherwise, you don't get the +3 bonus on your natural attacks. would be unfair to get +3 with a lvl 1 spell, won't it?
SauroGrenom 12-02-07, 12:01 PM	First part of Valen Sky vs Kracknol is up. Sauro do you wanna surrender at this point? Right now I'm thinking that concealing amorphia grants total concealment. And you don't provoke AoO's when moving if you have total concealment. Ahh, but he's got touchsight. Should have gone huge. Yea, he beat me with a cheap sunder equipment thing. I'm going to have to figure out a way to deal with that. Can you get adamantine boots of flying to go with the full plate armor?
lonewolf 12-02-07, 12:57 PM	Valen Sky vs Kracknol is up.
Hirumajoe 12-02-07, 01:13 PM	Right now I'm thinking that concealing amorphia grants total concealment. And you don't provoke AoO's when moving if you have total concealment. Ahh, but he's got touchsight. Should have gone huge. Yea, he beat me with a cheap sunder equipment thing. I'm going to have to figure out a way to deal with that. Can you get adamantine boots of flying to go with the full plate armor? I personally don't see why not. The only question is what would be the cost, but that probably could be house ruled. Worst case I'd call it Light armor at +5,000 gp, but it probably be cheaper than that. I've often considered whether an adamantine Quiver would be legal (and worth it) myself. Edit: Some ideas vs the cheap sunder thing, even without adamantine boots. 1) Reach weapon might help. Note Valen doesn't have improved sunder, so you could have gotten an AoO off. 2) Ranged weapon (even a couple thrown ones) could also help - you could have waited until Valen was a more manageable size that way. Also, I'm guessing its due to your time constrainsts, but I think you missed the fact that Valen was flying around in a giant smoke cloud (eversmoking bottle was pre-buffed). Not sure if you realized there was a straight up 20% miss chance on your side without Touchsight up. Just for future reference in your fights against him. :)
Hirumajoe 12-02-07, 01:24 PM	Valen Sky vs Kracknol is up. Thank you very much for the run. And what is it with me rolling 1's on important attack rolls lately... Edit: Kai Engel vs Snaga is up. Three little words say it all: Air Strike Confirmed. Also, Thank you for the other run. And I retract my previous statement, what is with me rolling 1's or 20's on important attack rolls lately... Anyways, I'm glad my fights went short this week. I'm still feeling bad for Hogarth on the Elrick vs Valen fight...
templer10 12-02-07, 01:30 PM	i need something answered quick - Ranged touch spell Can Crit yes or no? I know the answer is yes if you use Splat books and iam have seen it done this way here but someone raised it this week about another fight and i need a quick answer for the fight iam currently running
Hirumajoe 12-02-07, 01:45 PM	If it makes an attack roll, it can crit. So yes, ranged touch attack spells can crit. Even here in the CoCo. :)
templer10 12-02-07, 02:01 PM	meinrad vs remnant is done (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14481424&postcount=1528) - wierdest end i had the winner had -4 HP, the loser -6.
Salrantol 12-02-07, 02:57 PM	meinrad vs remnant is done (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14481424&postcount=1528) - wierdest end i had the winner had -4 HP, the loser -6.Probably won't matter since the dice hate me, but shouldn't Meinrad get his second attack in round 7, since he's flurrying and all?
templer10 12-02-07, 03:08 PM	Probably won't matter since the dice hate me, but shouldn't Meinrad get his second attack in round 7, since he's flurrying and all? Nope - that's the round the grapple started, so the dmg you dealt came from the grapple succeeding, Not from flurrieng grapple for damage - you couldn't continue the flurry since you didnt need to hit him anymore and in order to flurry grapple for damage you needed the whole round free. also after making the grapple you move into the targets space - which breaks the flurry even if nothing else would have.
Salrantol 12-02-07, 04:17 PM	Nope - that's the round the grapple started, so the dmg you dealt came from the grapple succeeding, Not from flurrieng grapple for damage - you couldn't continue the flurry since you didnt need to hit him anymore and in order to flurry grapple for damage you needed the whole round free. also after making the grapple you move into the targets space - which breaks the flurry even if nothing else would have.Huh???????? Both the initiation of the grapple and the grapple check for damage are attack actions, and by flurrying, Meinrad gets two attack actions, and can use one to initiate the grapple and one to grapple for damage.Can a monk make disarm, sunder, and trip attacks during her flurry of blows? What about grapple checks? What about bull rushes, overruns, or other special combat maneuvers? As long as every attack is made with one of the monk’s special weapons (that is, weapons allowed as part of a flurry), the monk can perform any special attack that takes the place of a normal attack. She’s free to disarm, sunder, trip, and grapple to her heart’s content.Edit: And to address the second part of your argument, the FAQ specifically allows initiating a grapple and making a grapple check if you get two attacks (note bolded last line):When grappling, the order of events is as follows: starting the grapple (the “grab”), then grappling, then pinning, right? How many of these can you do in a round? Can you, in one attack, go all the way to pinned or is it based on the number of attacks you have? It’s the latter. You can grab someone and establish a hold with one attack, but pinning an opponent is an option only when you can make an attack and you already have a foe in your grasp (see If You’re Grappling in Chapter 8 of the Player’s Handbook). To grab and pin someone in one turn, you have to have at least two attacks available that turn.
Nurlithion 12-02-07, 04:27 PM	@whitebaron But you can deliver a touch spell with an unarmed or natural attack: it says so in the quote I gave you.
whitebaron 12-02-07, 05:01 PM	@whitebaron But you can deliver a touch spell with an unarmed or natural attack: it says so in the quote I gave you. ah well, you bolded the wrong part of it. ;) i see now my error - though i still think it strange - you can do it with normal attack. but i'll bring the bonus of the spell (+3) to the courtroom - just to get a reference ruling. @sal: yep, you can definitely do it like that. you could even trip, sunder, grapple, pin in one round if you had the attacks for it. varjo vs eds+darian
Stormwind 12-03-07, 02:18 AM	varjo vs eds+darian Firstly thanks for your time in running this. It is, as always, much appreciated. However there are a few points which I believe require attention: (Round 1) Darian was supposed to yell at the top of his lungs. This should mean that Varjo should be able to locate him and would head in his direction rather than traipsing around the map (however this is only a minor detail) (Round 9) after her action, Varjo is within 5ft of Darian and even though she is underground, she still threatens his square (due to incorporeal), thus Pitkä and Lyhyt's attacks on Darian should both get a flanking bonus which would mean their attacks both hit. (This has rather major effects on the remainder of the fight.) (Round 10) Tactics for Pitkä and Lyhyt's clearly state "Lyhyt and Pitkä will attack if possible and fly back up into the canopy. Then rinse and repeat." Firstly Darian does not move so there is no need for Pitkä or Lyhyt to take a 5ft step which means that they should have attacked and then flown up into the canopy, and even if he had moved, then they should have flown back up into the canopy and prepared for another dive attack since they were only to attack 'if possible'. (This is also a fairly major point) (Round 11 & 12) You have all three shadows rolling fortitude saves? As undead they are immune to any effect that requires a fortitude save which means that Energy missile (cold) does no damage to them. (This is definitely a major point) Furthermore, on being reduced to 0 hp's undead are destroyed (so no need to count negative hp's). (Minor detail) Edit: Also the link for the rolls is wrong. It should be this (http://www.hwx.it/wizards.com/dice.php?sid=2126)
whitebaron 12-03-07, 02:48 AM	i have to look into it again once i'm home this evening, but: 1) the tactics said that they should skip yelling and moving if they start in the same square. 2) you cannot threaten a square in which you can't see. if the target has cover or concealment, you can not make AoOs and therefore, cannot flank. 3) this might end up killing you earlier, but i'll change it if you want me to, as it might save your shadows. 4) darian would have known that with his knowledge. maybe change it to fire? (waiting for input from other party) 5) this is just unneccessary nitpicking.
MindWandererB 12-03-07, 03:10 AM	5) this is just unneccessary nitpicking.Please try to be diplomatic, WB. He said it was a minor point; you can just acknowledge it and move on.
Stormwind 12-03-07, 04:32 AM	i have to look into it again once i'm home this evening, but: 1) the tactics said that they should skip yelling and moving if they start in the same square.Ok. No problem. 2) you cannot threaten a square in which you can't see. if the target has cover or concealment, you can not make AoOs and therefore, cannot flank.Actually, I would dispute this point for the following reason:FLANKING When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by a character or creature friendly to you on the opponent’s opposite border or opposite corner.Threatened Squares: You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your action. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you’re unarmed, you don’t normally threaten any squares and thus can’t make attacks of opportunity. Even though Varjo can't make AoO's against Darian (due to cover), she still threatens his square (since she is holding her dagger). Thus Lyhyt and Pitkä should get a flanking bonus. As far as I can tell the SRD supports me on this point, however if you can show otherwise, then please do. Think of it this way, Darian is threatened by Varjo because of her position beneath him which means that he needs to pay attention to her location. Then when creatures on the other side of him (Lyhyt and Pitkä) attack, Darian has to split his attention to be aware of them too (otherwise he would be ignoring an opponent behind him) thus they get a combat bonus for flanking. 3) this might end up killing you earlier, but i'll change it if you want me to, as it might save your shadows.Yes. 4) darian would have known that with his knowledge. maybe change it to fire? (waiting for input from other party)Actually I would like to file an objection to this. The immunity to Fortitude is marked clearly on Varjo's character sheet and the player (of Darian) made a clear mistake in their tactics. Just because their character 'should know better' does not change their tactics (especially now that both sets of tactics are posted). (In this case lonewolf should have known better too as he still plays samuel ;) ... <stormwind grins at lonewolf>) To give a comparative example: If a melee character with a bow and a sword is fighting a ranged character on horseback and still writes into their tactics to 'only use the sword and charge', then I don't see any reason for the pitlord to allow them to change their tactics after the fight has been run. Basically, apart from being a very bad precedent (pitlords offering advice to players on their tactics and allowing players to change tactics after the fight is posted), I believe it is also against CoCo rules to change tactics after a fight. Note that requesting clarification on tactics is fine, but this would step outside of that.
lonewolf 12-03-07, 05:57 AM	About the energy missile(cold): Undead are NOT immune to this. Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless). Targets: Up to five creatures or objects I actually know this because Samuel has been attacked by Energy missiles(cold) before and I also thought that he should be immune at first. @Flanking: In round 9 if both shadows charge they simply are not in the correct position to flank Darian. And no matter what, only one of them can flank Darian with Varjo at any one time. (otherwise I have to agree that you can threaten Darian even from below ground)
whitebaron 12-03-07, 06:53 AM	about the energy missile: i didnt have the time to look it up, thnx lonewolf. it my lunch break now. -> LINK: (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041102a) Concealed Creatures: You don't threaten any creature that has total concealment against you (though you can attack into the concealed creature's space and hope for a hit). Total Concealment: If you have line of effect to a target but not line of sight he is considered to have total concealment from you. You can’t attack an opponent that has total concealment, though you can attack into a square that you think he occupies. A successful attack into a square occupied by an enemy with total concealment has a 50% miss chance (instead of the normal 20% miss chance for an opponent with concealment). You can’t execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with total concealment, even if you know what square or squares the opponent occupies. therefore i'd draw the conclusion that you cannot flank from underground. @mwb: yeah, i know, sorry. should not check this forum from work, i tend to get... stressed. @stormwind: sorry for above comment. btw: i'm still a bit disappointed by the incomplete tactics of both teams. but maybe this is just because incorporeal fights are so hard...
hogarth 12-03-07, 07:06 AM	btw: i'm still a bit disappointed by the incomplete tactics of both teams. but maybe this is just because incorporeal fights are so hard... What was incomplete about the tactics?
templer10 12-03-07, 07:20 AM	btw: i'm still a bit disappointed by the incomplete tactics of both teams. but maybe this is just because incorporeal fights are so hard... Meh - say TY i didnt write the tactics this time - I ALWAYs overwrite stuff... (my personal "best" is 3 full Pm's).
Stormwind 12-03-07, 08:22 AM	I actually know this because Samuel has been attacked by Energy missiles(cold) before and I also thought that he should be immune at first.Damn .. missed the objects thing ... oh well ... <sheepish smile> <gives lonewolf a cookie :cookie:> <snip> therefore i'd draw the conclusion that you cannot flank from underground.Hmmm ... I wasn't aware of the clarification in the RoTG. Thanks for letting me know (I will have to change tactics in the future). Ok, then. That just leaves the 3rd point where Lyhyt and Pitkä should retreat into the canopy after attacking in round 10. This actually doesn't change much, although Darian probably has to roll spot checks vs the shadows hide checks in round 11 and then either attack the shadows (if he spots them) or readies to attack Varjo. If Darian attacks the shadows, then he'll also need to roll for the 20% miss chance from concealment and cover. Then if either of the shadows survive, they would dive attack again. So depending on rolls, it may well be that very little changes (or maybe I get lucky) ;) Edit: I just noticed that in rounds 10 & 11 Darian manifests while threatened by Pitkä and Lyhyt (natural weapons), shouldn't he have to make concentration checks to manifest defensively or suffer AoO's there (or am I missing something else)? @stormwind: sorry for above comment. No problem. btw: i'm still a bit disappointed by the incomplete tactics of both teams. but maybe this is just because incorporeal fights are so hard...I tried to give simple, easy, tactics that would be simple to run. Is there anything in particular that you would have liked to see there? (Just asking so that I can hopefully make it easier on the pitlord for Varjo's next fight)!
lonewolf 12-03-07, 10:27 AM	just great I checked twice if Elrick had daylight prepared and I still managed to miss it... *sigh* Doesnt look too good...
templer10 12-03-07, 10:33 AM	just great I checked twice if Elrick had daylight prepared and I still managed to miss it... *sigh* Doesnt look too good... I was wondering how you will deal with that... Iam just sorry i forgot to buy Scrolls of it so ill be daylightless for next 2 fights. well - there is a 50-50 chance for tha fight to be over in a hurry otherwise it will be a looooong Fight with you having to knock my hp down 3 times.
lonewolf 12-03-07, 10:45 AM	first part of Enoch vs Inzin is up. I will finish it tomorrow. Up until now the dice werent really friendly to Enoch: d20: 11 rolls, 5.4 average post any problems you have until now and I´ll fix them tomorrow.
Erithmu 12-03-07, 10:46 AM	@LW: Elrick does think he is fighting Samuel ... and doesn't understand the whole gender thing either ... So you can have a minor win if you want.
templer10 12-03-07, 10:53 AM	@LW: Elrick does think he is fighting Samuel ... and doesn't understand the whole gender thing either ... So you can have a minor win if you want. i do? well all sneaks are the same to me... (and i have unpleasent memories from the little life sucking ghost).
lonewolf 12-03-07, 10:57 AM	Samuel is hardly a sneak build. I mean, yeah he does have +18 hide, but thats without a single rank or any special effort.
Erithmu 12-03-07, 01:15 PM	Chameleon vs Elrick Weakest Crit EVER. ... You needed it too.
whitebaron 12-03-07, 01:18 PM	What was incomplete about the tactics? you didn't specify to move anywhere, no formation for the 3 people, nor what to do when you don't find the shadows or they are hiding. note that snake eyes acted the most stupid of you three - this was, in fact, intentional as he has the lowest int. @t10: well, i meant a bit more of tactics, not a tactic-compendium. :) @stormwind: darian auto-spots the shadows even with cover and concealment, as they don't have HIPS. see the tavern for mwbs opinion on this. about round 10: he can always take a 5ft step, before manifesting. and, man, you're out of luck in this one. darian got both miss chances done, so both shadows get destroyed in the canopy, and the rest of the fight goes as it was before. will edit the version in after dinner...
Stormwind 12-03-07, 01:43 PM	<snip> and, man, you're out of luck in this one. darian got both miss chances done, so both shadows get destroyed in the canopy, and the rest of the fight goes as it was before. will edit the version in after dinner...Oh well, that's life ... sometimes the dice just aren't on your side. Thanks for the run. Storm
Taureus_Drakken 12-03-07, 03:34 PM	If a character fails against Psychic Enervation, does the power still get manifested? ~Taureus~
templer10 12-03-07, 03:34 PM	First part of Yorick vs Gak is done (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14491236&postcount=1533) MWB - you want to surrender? you can't wake up and not surrending at this point waste both of your resources (his bolts, your wand). Macbrea reviewed the rules and you do get the second save after 10 rounds - so knowing that and assuming yorick knows that also - i think that knowing the situation a reasonable improvisation is getting down and attempting a CDG Since Yorick can tell he wont be able to kill Gak in 10 rounds with that wand of CLW active. MWB/macbrea - thoughts?
TelinArtho 12-03-07, 03:35 PM	If a character fails against Psychic Enervation, does the power still get manifested? ~Taureus~ Yes - it says as much under the entry for wild surge.
Macbrea 12-03-07, 03:37 PM	If a character fails against Psychic Enervation, does the power still get manifested? ~Taureus~ Yes the power goes off. But the Wilder also loses a number of power points equal to the wilder level and is dazed until their next round.
Taureus_Drakken 12-03-07, 03:43 PM	Thanks Mabrea. I knew they end up dazed, and lose pp. But it doesn't say whether you are prevented from finishing the manifesting. ~Taureus~
Macbrea 12-03-07, 03:45 PM	Understood. It's a bit odd. And running a fight with two wilders it's probably whole unpredictable what's going to happen.
MindWandererB 12-03-07, 06:17 PM	First part of Yorick vs Gak is done (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14491236&postcount=1533) MWB - you want to surrender? you can't wake up and not surrending at this point waste both of your resources (his bolts, your wand). Macbrea reviewed the rules and you do get the second save after 10 rounds - so knowing that and assuming yorick knows that also - i think that knowing the situation a reasonable improvisation is getting down and attempting a CDG Since Yorick can tell he wont be able to kill Gak in 10 rounds with that wand of CLW active. MWB/macbrea - thoughts?I won't speak for Mac's improv, but I'll address the rest: I did have tactics listed for what Blurgta should do in this situation (and her presence will have a bearing on whether Yorick should try a CdG). If it comes up, I agree (and I realized earlier) that it's a total judgment call between archery duel and climbing. I think that if I were to run that improv, I'd have Gak climb, since his untrained climb is pretty decent and the tactics stress melee heavily with no mention of ranged combat at all. But I'll have no objection either way. If Gak does fail the second save, the fight is over. The criteria for "defeated" are met.
Salrantol 12-03-07, 08:53 PM	Probably won't matter since the dice hate me, but shouldn't Meinrad get his second attack in round 7, since he's flurrying and all?Nope - that's the round the grapple started, so the dmg you dealt came from the grapple succeeding, Not from flurrieng grapple for damage - you couldn't continue the flurry since you didnt need to hit him anymore and in order to flurry grapple for damage you needed the whole round free. also after making the grapple you move into the targets space - which breaks the flurry even if nothing else would have.I pointed out here that the rules don't agree with you.@sal: yep, you can definitely do it like that. you could even trip, sunder, grapple, pin in one round if you had the attacks for it.So I would greatly appreciate it if, before the deadline tomorrow, you could correct round 7 by rolling an additional grapple check (and damage if applicable) since it could directly change the outcome. If you were already planning on doing so, I apologize for pestering you with this again, but you'd never replied to my FAQ quotes refuting your position so I had no way to know.
Macbrea 12-03-07, 10:43 PM	As my tactics were pretty silly about not going after you if I dropped you. It means he should just waste my arrows.
Vathelokai 12-03-07, 10:46 PM	meinrad vs remnant is done (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14481424&postcount=1528) - wierdest end i had the winner had -4 HP, the loser -6. :confused: I'll take what I can get. My condolences to Salrantol; getting beat by the dice is never fun.
Taureus_Drakken 12-04-07, 12:44 AM	Matsuni vs Kron is here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14494914&postcount=1536). Comment? Concerns? ~Taureus~
Hirumajoe 12-04-07, 01:33 AM	Longshot vs Baelin is up here. Turns out that if the saving throw rolls had been exchanged, you'd have a different winner... Durzulgor I vs Zodiac II is up here. A delicate combination of luck decided this one.
templer10 12-04-07, 01:45 AM	I pointed out here that the rules don't agree with you.So I would greatly appreciate it if, before the deadline tomorrow, you could correct round 7 by rolling an additional grapple check (and damage if applicable) since it could directly change the outcome. If you were already planning on doing so, I apologize for pestering you with this again, but you'd never replied to my FAQ quotes refuting your position so I had no way to know. I saw it - just didnt have tiem to get around to it. Vath - i wouldnt edit if i were You.
templer10 12-04-07, 01:46 AM	As my tactics were pretty silly about not going after you if I dropped you. It means he should just waste my arrows. You are all determined to make it a long fight ha? - well if you insist - batch rolling here we come...
Taureus_Drakken 12-04-07, 02:16 AM	Question about readied invisible figurine use. If characters A & B have readied actions on sight with character C, does activating a figurine of power break invisibility, thus triggering the readied actions? Thanks in advance. ~Taureus~
Vathelokai 12-04-07, 02:23 AM	@Everyone: due to real life concerns, I won't have time to do my monster fight this week. The monster has been rolled, but the stat block and tactics have not been created. If anyone can pick it up, I would be most grateful (as would Malither76). Linky
Vathelokai 12-04-07, 02:30 AM	I saw it - just didnt have tiem to get around to it. Vath - i wouldnt edit if i were You. I put a link to the fight at the top of my sheet, but otherwise, no updates.
Vathelokai 12-04-07, 02:31 AM	Durzulgor I vs Zodiac II is up here. A delicate combination of luck decided this one.Thanks for the run. Rules note: full round action spells can be split into 2 standard actions. For example, you can move and begin casting, then on your next round finish casting then move again. So (If I understand correctly), Zodiac could ready to begin casting.
Vathelokai 12-04-07, 02:34 AM	Question about readied invisible figurine use. If characters A & B have readied actions on sight with character C, does activating a figurine of power break invisibility, thus triggering the readied actions? Thanks in advance. ~Taureus~ Activating a wonderous item does not break invisibility unless the effect appears in the opponents area. So activating a bronze griffon right in their space would break it, but not activating it somewhere else. It follows rules similar to summoning. They would have a good idea of where the person activating the statue was though...
whitebaron 12-04-07, 04:12 AM	Durzulgor I vs Zodiac II is up here. A delicate combination of luck decided this one. it's not my place to critique some other issues i'd have with this fight as a player, but: can you really CDG an invisible opponent?
lonewolf 12-04-07, 06:10 AM	it's not my place to critique some other issues i'd have with this fight as a player, but: can you really CDG an invisible opponent? yes you can. You can deliver a coup de grace against a creature with total concealment, but doing this requires two consecutive full-round actions (one to “find” the creature once you’ve determined what square it’s in, and one to deliver the coup de grace).
Durzulgor 12-04-07, 08:13 AM	Thanks Hirumajoe for the run, bad, bad luck for me! ^^ Dur uses the wand, and then uses a move action to put it away. (You can't move and stow a weapon or wand, only draw them) should have thought of that and just dropped it, it was useless anyway after that point -.- that alone could have changed the fight. Next problem where my tactics: I thought I could easily avoid that damn bat, so I didn't include the "break LOS" thingie before the shooting might have started!
templer10 12-04-07, 08:25 AM	Regarding meinrad vs remanant - i rolled the second grapple for damage and meinrad made it and killed remnant before he had a chance to scorch him to death, Ill edit it in the battle thread later today but you can edit chars if you want.
Hirumajoe 12-04-07, 11:05 AM	Thanks Hirumajoe for the run, bad, bad luck for me! ^^ should have thought of that and just dropped it, it was useless anyway after that point -.- that alone could have changed the fight. Next problem where my tactics: I thought I could easily avoid that damn bat, so I didn't include the "break LOS" thingie before the shooting might have started! In this case, while you could break LOS, the fact that sleep is a 10' burst would still have done you in. At the time casting started, you were 85' away. With only a single move action (say you dropped the wand) you could only get to a distance of 115' at best, or behind some small obstacles, which were within 10' of points that Zodiac had LOS to. @Vath: Hmm... You have a point on starting a full round action. I'll remember that for next time.
Taureus_Drakken 12-04-07, 12:36 PM	I am having a bit of a difficulty with the interleague fight. Verren is out of the picture, and Quavein just has to withdraw every time the griffon bases him. Balthazar is still invisible, and Sean is defending Qauvein as per tactics. Hogarth didn't specifically state in tactics to grapple with the griffon, so would improvising that in be too much? If not, it breaks down into a game of tag, the griffon can't do more than base Quavein when he withdraws. Otherwise I will have Quavein start taking 5-ft steps, and attacking the griffon. Thanks in advance. ~Taureus~
Erithmu 12-04-07, 12:45 PM	Without seeing the full tactics, or knowing the exact situation I can only make some assumptions, which may or may not help. Bal should be safe as he has his griffon interacting Qauvein may be dealing with the delay penalty, which is designed to encourage attacking. The other thing would be to have the Griffon base vertically (ie directly over) so that Qauvein cannot safely withdraw. At that point Qauvein will realized he has to deal with the griffon and can't play keep away. Also I'm not sure how the bat is 'defending' but if it is in the way of stuff like charges, just have the griffon charge it and get it out of the way. Those are just some options, see if they are within the context of tactics
lonewolf 12-04-07, 12:55 PM	Enoch vs Inzin is up Note that I had to make more judgement calls during this fight than I am comfortable with, but your tactics demanded it. I will not change any judgement call I made because of lack of tactics!
templer10 12-04-07, 01:54 PM	Gak vs yorick is up (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14491236&postcount=1533) And edit of Meinrad the Many-Fisted (Salrantol) vs. Remnant (Vathelokai) : is done
CrazyArtificer 12-04-07, 02:00 PM	I'm not sure this is the right place to ask, but tomorrow there'll be the new pairings. As the fight involving my char hasn't been run yet, can I edit the title line to fight again next week or not?
lonewolf 12-04-07, 02:09 PM	I'm not sure this is the right place to ask, but tomorrow there'll be the new pairings. As the fight involving my char hasn't been run yet, can I edit the title line to fight again next week or not? no you have to wait until the fight is done. If your fight is not finished before the deadline, you´ll have to skip next pairing.
CrazyArtificer 12-04-07, 02:10 PM	Ok, thanks for the quick answer.
Macbrea 12-04-07, 02:35 PM	Gak vs yorick is up (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14491236&postcount=1533) And edit of Meinrad the Many-Fisted (Salrantol) vs. Remnant (Vathelokai) : is done heh.. Yeah... on a flat level plain I don't stand a chance vs him. But on a rooftop on a good day I might take him! Note to self... buy the crazy man balance next level and... he is a cleric with a healing wand.
Durzulgor 12-04-07, 07:29 PM	In this case, while you could break LOS, the fact that sleep is a 10' burst would still have done you in. At the time casting started, you were 85' away. With only a single move action (say you dropped the wand) you could only get to a distance of 115' at best, or behind some small obstacles, which were within 10' of points that Zodiac had LOS to. Hmm, yup, true, true! Should've stated something like: "Take a run away from the familiar, if it comes close; continue buffing sequence afterwards!" I'll know better next time! ;-)
hogarth 12-04-07, 08:50 PM	no you have to wait until the fight is done. If your fight is not finished before the deadline, you´ll have to skip next pairing. Note that if one of your fights is held over for a week, you can send a message to Pitlords and get a compensatory Full Activity (crafting items, gather info, etc.).
Taureus_Drakken 12-04-07, 09:36 PM	Interleague Action Verren + Quavein vs Balthazar is here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14503193&postcount=1539). Sorry for the delay, I was posting it right before I needed to go to work (3PM EST), and ran into the character limit. And couldn't fix it until tonight. It was finished when the last roll was made, but I will accept whatever penalties come my way. Comments? Questions? ~Taureus~
hogarth 12-04-07, 09:53 PM	Interleague Action Verren + Quavein vs Balthazar is here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14503193&postcount=1539). Comments? Sorry for the minimalist tactics for Picsou, but I sometimes find that being too specific in your tactics can be counterproductive (unless you're planning something unusual or surprising) . Also, thanks for overlooking the fact that Picsou's 3FC was not updated. Also, under "X/day abilities used", you should list 1 use of bardic music. Also, you forgot the Total Defense against the bat (although with the incredibly bad rolling it didn't matter). Also, some of the map sblocks look empty to me (in Firefox). I'm sure whitebaron will have more interesting comments.
Taureus_Drakken 12-04-07, 10:44 PM	@ hogarth: I will edit it in tomorrow, I have work early in the morning. (EST) Yeah, I forgot the total D, but with the unlucky rolling it didn't matter. Not sure what I was supposed to do in regards to the 3FC not being updated...:confused: Any and all edits will be made before pairings are done, so don't worry. ~Taureus~
Vathelokai 12-04-07, 11:23 PM	:bump: @Everyone: due to real life concerns, I won't have time to do my monster fight this week. The monster has been rolled, but the stat block and tactics have not been created. If anyone can pick it up, I would be most grateful (as would Malither76). Linky
whitebaron 12-05-07, 03:17 AM	Not sure what I was supposed to do in regards to the 3FC not being updated...:confused: you could have given balthazar an autoloss. Also, some of the map sblocks look empty to me (in Firefox). I'm sure whitebaron will have more interesting comments. same here with the sblocks (firefox too) - anyone know why this happens from time to time? also, the multiquote feature does not work properly in firefox. about the fight: a) tough luck on the first charge. maybe verren should have gotten one energy missile on sight of the griffon (as balthasar has to be next to it, and we would get clearly a listen check for his spoken command word.) as this energy missile doesn't change anything, i'd rather keep my 3 pp and call the fight over. notes: i didn't check completely, but you might have given the griffon to much flying ability. also note that the black columns on the map are as high as the arena. - doesn't matter as his ground speed matches quaveins, but: a griffon has a maximum up angle of 60°, and can turn while flying at most 90° per round. so in fact, you need to keep track of facing with griffons too, as their average fly inflicts on them the need to move at least half their speed forward when flying, or fall to the ground. also note that switching angles (45°) or up/down costs a griffon 5ft of his speed. i figure the sblocks don't work due to two errors: there's a space between img] and http: and the images don't work as it gives an error - you need to remove ",verren" after the mapname "arena" - hint for the future: leave dead combattants on the map, they're irrelevant anyway. if you don't like rerolling starting boxes, do the following: 1d4 for single char, 1d3 for other two. (leave out single chars starting box from counting.) the real odd stuff: i don't think a bronze griffon should actually get a full action in his first round. as he appears in the middle of your action, and acts on your initiative, he can only do half an action. (so: 1 std action) - this should be the same as using two standard actions to summon something - it should not get a full action. taureus, your coloring of the fight is off - not that it matters, but you somehow confused the colors of our team. :) @hogarth: interesting enough? :D
mucki 12-05-07, 03:47 AM	same here with the sblocks (firefox too) - anyone know why this happens from time to time? The image in the sblock is broken. For some reason firefox does not display the broken image icon though, but instead just displays nothing at all. I check the image url and firefox said this to me. Not sure what this actually means: "The image “http://www.hwx.it/coco/coco.php;v=1;map=arena,Verren;b=Name,M,3 9,32,35,36,Quavein;c=Name,M,37,39,36,40, Balthazar;d=Name,L,36,31,37,34,36,36,Gri ffon;e=Name,D,40,32,38,39,Sean” cannot be displayed, because it contains errors." Another thing I noted recelty is that some people put newlines into their image tags when the line gets very long. this does not work. (I can't find an example right now, but if you open a map sblock and you can see something like: http://www.hwx.it/coco/coco.php;v=1; map=arena then this is what i mean. Hmm, I check the image a bit further, and found the problem, here is a corrected link for round 8: http://www.hwx.it/coco/coco.php;v=1;map=arena;b=Name,M,39,32,35 ,36,Quavein;c=Name,M,37,39,36,40,Balthaz ar;d=Name,L,36,31,37,34,36,36,Griffon;e= Name,D,40,32,38,39,Sean Original Link: http://www.hwx.it/coco/coco.php;v=1;map=arena,Verren;b=Name,M,3 9,32,35,36,Quavein;c=Name,M,37,39,36,40, Balthazar;d=Name,L,36,31,37,34,36,36,Gri ffon;e=Name,D,40,32,38,39,Sean Corrected Link: http://www.hwx.it/coco/coco.php;v=1;map=arena;b=Name,M,39,32,35 ,36,Quavein;c=Name,M,37,39,36,40,Balthaz ar;d=Name,L,36,31,37,34,36,36,Griffon;e= Name,D,40,32,38,39,Sean This is seems to be a bug in the battle map maker. If you put down a name for a character, but no pins, then the generated link is wrong. If you do this for character A then the link becomes completely broken. Also I saw that the generator reassigns colors if you remove characters, so it is probably best to just leave a pin on the death location if possible ... EDIT: I just realized wb already answered this mixed up with his fight comments ...
hogarth 12-05-07, 06:53 AM	about the fight: a) tough luck on the first charge. maybe verren should have gotten one energy missile on sight of the griffon (as balthasar has to be next to it, and we would get clearly a listen check for his spoken command word.) as this energy missile doesn't change anything, i'd rather keep my 3 pp and call the fight over. I agree you could certainly attack the griffon with an Energy Missile and I agree that pinpointing Picsou would be dead easy, but you can't target someone with a spell/power if they have total concealment. So there's no possibility of Energy Missiles against Picsou (unless you had a See Invisibility spell I didn't notice...). the real odd stuff: i don't think a bronze griffon should actually get a full action in his first round. as he appears in the middle of your action, and acts on your initiative, he can only do half an action. (so: 1 std action) - this should be the same as using two standard actions to summon something - it should not get a full action. a) My understanding is that the griffon gets a full round's worth of actions on the turn that it's activated. Suppose two characters have the same initiative score, but character A acts before character B because of a higher Dex modifier. Character A takes a full round's worth of actions. Are you saying that character B now gets to take no actions because character A's round has already passed? b) Even if the griffon only got a standard action, it could still charge. And it gets a full attack on a charge.
CrazyArtificer 12-05-07, 06:57 AM	Note that if one of your fights is held over for a week, you can send a message to Pitlords and get a compensatory Full Activity (crafting items, gather info, etc.). Thanks for letting me know.. Unfortunately I won't be able to do any full activity with my current money and skill array. Guess I'll start working on my second character ;)
whitebaron 12-05-07, 08:43 AM	I agree you could certainly attack the griffon with an Energy Missile and I agree that pinpointing Picsou would be dead easy, but you can't target someone with a spell/power if they have total concealment. So there's no possibility of Energy Missiles against Picsou (unless you had a See Invisibility spell I didn't notice...). @see invis: not yet, planned for ecl6. @concealment: yup, mixed up line of effect and targeting. forgot that energy missile targets a player, not a square. a) My understanding is that the griffon gets a full round's worth of actions on the turn that it's activated. Suppose two characters have the same initiative score, but character A acts before character B because of a higher Dex modifier. Character A takes a full round's worth of actions. Are you saying that character B now gets to take no actions because character A's round has already passed? you are mixing up initiative with actual combat. initiative is decided once, in which order players get to act. but: the spell description of summon monster explicitly states that the summoned monster acts on YOUR turn. it doesn't say on the same initiative... this is the same as your mount - you act on the same turn, therefore it can't do a full action after you did a standard action (i.e. cast then get away) this leaves another question, if the summon changes initiative with you if you delay... b) Even if the griffon only got a standard action, it could still charge. And it gets a full attack on a charge. this is right. but i noticed that, and therefore said: no change necessary for me. this is not about the fight, its about general use.
Taureus_Drakken 12-05-07, 10:59 AM	you could have given balthazar an autoloss. I will remember that in the future. Never had it come up before, so I guess as hogarth said, I was nice in this regard. about the fight: a) tough luck on the first charge. maybe verren should have gotten one energy missile on sight of the griffon (as balthasar has to be next to it, and we would get clearly a listen check for his spoken command word.) as this energy missile doesn't change anything, i'd rather keep my 3 pp and call the fight over. notes: i didn't check completely, but you might have given the griffon to much flying ability. also note that the black columns on the map are as high as the arena. - doesn't matter as his ground speed matches quaveins, but: a griffon has a maximum up angle of 60°, and can turn while flying at most 90° per round. so in fact, you need to keep track of facing with griffons too, as their average fly inflicts on them the need to move at least half their speed forward when flying, or fall to the ground. also note that switching angles (45°) or up/down costs a griffon 5ft of his speed. It was on the ground until Quavein ran away. Even then, it would have had enough speed to move around the pillars until it could get a straight shot flying. i figure the sblocks don't work due to two errors: there's a space between img] and http: and the images don't work as it gives an error - you need to remove ",verren" after the mapname "arena" - hint for the future: leave dead combattants on the map, they're irrelevant anyway. I will take a look at this. As you said it's irrelevant, but in case someone wants to check in the future, it would be nice to fix it for them. if you don't like rerolling starting boxes, do the following: 1d4 for single char, 1d3 for other two. (leave out single chars starting box from counting.) Thanks for the tip. :D the real odd stuff: i don't think a bronze griffon should actually get a full action in his first round. as he appears in the middle of your action, and acts on your initiative, he can only do half an action. (so: 1 std action) - this should be the same as using two standard actions to summon something - it should not get a full action. I don't think it works like that. Just because it uses your initiative, that doesn't mean it gets limited actions the first round it appears. Summoning with a spell (which this is identical to, except for the time it takes to do so) gives the summoned creature a full round of actions. There shouldn't be a limitation just because it's easier (less actions) to use the item, than it would be to use a Summon Monster spell. taureus, your coloring of the fight is off - not that it matters, but you somehow confused the colors of our team. :) Another minor mistake, I will make sure I keep track of it better next time. ~Taureus~
whitebaron 12-05-07, 01:11 PM	I don't think it works like that. Just because it uses your initiative, that doesn't mean it gets limited actions the first round it appears. Summoning with a spell (which this is identical to, except for the time it takes to do so) gives the summoned creature a full round of actions. There shouldn't be a limitation just because it's easier (less actions) to use the item, than it would be to use a Summon Monster spell. please note that the summon spell ends at the beginning of your new round, and therefore you also get a full round action. also note, that the spell doesn't say it acts immediately on your initiative count (which would say that its dex is important and therefore if you have a initiative 10 dex 3, b initiative 10 dex 4 and a casts a summon with dex 2, that b should have his action before the summon can do anything) but it acts "on your turn" - whatever that means. the terminology of "turn" is not really used anywhere else. btw: i wouldn't think you set me up for a charge intentionally - he was invisible, after all.
Hirumajoe 12-05-07, 01:30 PM	but it acts "on your turn" - whatever that means. the terminology of "turn" is not really used anywhere else. When a character’s turn comes up in the initiative sequence, that character performs his entire round’s worth of actions. It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. Your "turn" is your turn to go in the initiative sequence. Also, if summons *always* act on your turn, even if you delay, that leads to some rules loop holes. Since Delay is an action, your summons could act, you delay, they act again in the same round, you delay again, they act again, etc. Certainly there's no restriction on the summons to take the same action on your turn. Once summoned they are completely independant of the caster and his initiative. Besides, the "on your turn" is more clarifying the immediately part. The intent of the spell seems clear to me, that you're supposed to get some immediate damage dealing from the monster as soon as you cast it (if the target is close enough at least). Given there seems to be no restrictions on the action the summon can take, I would treat it just as if its initiative order had just come up, i.e. a full-round worth of actions.
Nurlithion 12-05-07, 04:01 PM	Not that it matters much since I ended up losing the fight anyway, but I couldn't have had my familiar delivering spells, since I'm only a 2nd-level wizard :p. Still, since this is my second fight of the cycle and the spell use was illegal, I'd like to ask for you to please ignore the use so I have all my spells for the last fight. And another thing that doesn't matter since now I don't have any spells cast, but I have an ASF of 10%. Also, you seem to have forgotten to put in the bonuses granted by Invisibility to Balthazar's hide check, which is +20 while moving, I believe. Anyway, thanks for running the fight. And here I was, thinking this elf ranger would be my best character... good thing I still have Ssassetar.
MindWandererB 12-05-07, 04:01 PM	same here with the sblocks (firefox too) - anyone know why this happens from time to time? also, the multiquote feature does not work properly in firefox.Multiquote hasn't worked properly at all, for any browser, since the conversion to Gleemax.
hogarth 12-05-07, 04:06 PM	Look on the bright side -- maybe you'll get paired against Balthazar Picsou again this week. With no more Bronze Griffon or Invisibility, a stiff breeze should be enough to knock him out. :D Not that it matters much since I ended up losing the fight anyway, but I couldn't have had my familiar delivering spells, since I'm only a 2nd-level wizard :p. Still, since this is my second fight of the cycle and the spell use was illegal, I'd like to ask for you to please ignore the use so I have all my spells for the last fight. And another thing that doesn't matter since now I don't have any spells cast, but I have an ASF of 10%. Also, you seem to have forgotten to put in the bonuses granted by Invisibility to Balthazar's hide check, which is +20 while moving, I believe. Anyway, thanks for running the fight. And here I was, thinking this elf ranger would be my best character... good thing I still have Ssassetar.
lonewolf 12-05-07, 04:12 PM	Look on the bright side -- maybe you'll get paired against Balthazar Picsou again this week. I dont think so. Darian has painted a target cross on Balthazar already this week. With no more Bronze Griffon or Invisibility, a stiff breeze should be enough to knock him out. :D I think Im gonna screw myself here, but what the hell... You have 2 Bronze griffons, each usable 2/week and have used both once this 3FC. Unless Im missing something you´ve got another use of both griffons left, dont you?
mucki 12-05-07, 04:15 PM	I agree to that interpretation. A summon does not share your turn with you, it has its own. So even if it appears mid-turn for you it would then get a full turn of actions, and also get your initiative and act just before or after you do in the subsequent rounds.
hogarth 12-05-07, 04:23 PM	You have 2 Bronze griffons, each usable 2/week and have used both once this 3FC. Unless Im missing something you´ve got another use of both griffons left, dont you? He purchased one mid-cycle (via Discount); it won't be available to use until next cycle. I probably should've put a note to that effect in his character sheet.
lonewolf 12-05-07, 04:25 PM	He purchased one mid-cycle (via Discount); it won't be available to use until next cycle. I probably should've put a note to that effect in his character sheet. I see. Yes you should have... Under this conditions, Darian is accepting your surrender any time you want. :P