Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TelinArtho 10-17-07, 11:55 AM	Fights of the Week: October 17th Please don't edit the sheet after the deadline or you will lose the match. Rules of Gladius All that you need to know is written in the Rules of Gladius. It could be useful also to give a look to the Court Decisions Part 1 and Part 2. Please do not make fake accounts or insult the Elders. Pairings GM MindwandererB will pair the active Characters of Gladius after the deadline. Link to pairings. Make sure that your character is not in prison. Pitlording You should use the CoCo Dice Roller (http://www.hwx.it/wizards.com) for the fight. If you need it, there is a nice template ready to use that will help. You could find the Battle Map Tag Generator (http://www.hwx.it/coco) for dynamic Maps very useful. You must post a link to your fight in this thread when it is complete. If you need a quick and dirty tool to calculate distances between two points (in 2-D or 3-D), this tool (http://wormhole.ath.cx/coco/coco_dist.php) should suffice. Another useful link is the Quick Access tables for XP and Gold. If a fight needs to be rerun, the Pitlord has to inform the Pitlords account. He cannot react to requests from Players because the other player and the pitlord might disagree. He has no time to read the fight and the discussion. Please keep that in mind. PMs from players with rerun requests won't have an impact. Recent News and Developments With the recent board changes, the update to the prison roster is on hold. If nothing is resolved by next week - I will do a check by hand, but I will not be able to update the Prison Roster. Recently decided in the courtroom is to adjust the Augmentation lines for Dispel Psionics. You can check this in the Court Decisions, under the Magic/Psionics section Currently up for discussion in the courtroom are the rules regarding Metamorphic transfer Currently up for discussion in the council are the rules regarding Crafting time. Please stop by the Community/Guild Discussion thread to provide some input on the two side games we are working on. Comments & Concerns Post any comments or concerns for this weeks fights in this thread. Be kind and courteous to your fellow posters, and don't feed the pitlords. Please remember that they do hard work and consume a lot of time to let you play. Above all, have FUN! If you have questions or comments on any of the changes, please make your posts be heard in the Council of Gladius!
whitebaron 10-17-07, 12:30 PM	just wanted to remember that i wanted to go back up to <two> fights after last week. also, the offer should be +1 fight or MQ (MQ preferred)
McJarvis 10-17-07, 03:57 PM	Having been away so long gives my anticipation of the pairings a very great sense of urgency. I have missed this facet of life that makes 3-5 pm on Wednesdays a special time of the week.
TelinArtho 10-17-07, 04:01 PM	@Macbrea - I think you are making a big mistake by not keeping Relanex active this week... a full caster versus my big brute? I don't think I have much of a chance there... Oh well - looks like a monster fight for my little creation... let's see how he does...
MindWandererB 10-17-07, 04:03 PM	Having been away so long gives my anticipation of the pairings a very great sense of urgency. I have missed this facet of life that makes 3-5 pm on Wednesdays a special time of the week. Sorry to disappoint you, but it looks like the ready-crawlers aren't working. This will take a while--although if anyone wants to help out with a manual search, be my guest.
McJarvis 10-17-07, 04:09 PM	Sorry to disappoint you, but it looks like the ready-crawlers aren't working. This will take a while--although if anyone wants to help out with a manual search, be my guest. When I get home from work in an hour or so I can put some time in. I'll check in here again when I get home to see if you've pulled through.
MindWandererB 10-17-07, 04:12 PM	Hmm... actually, Drac's seems to be up again, it's just really slow (I've been loading it for 10 minutes and it's up to CL 6). I'll get on it.
TelinArtho 10-17-07, 04:16 PM	Well - I can tell you that the only one active in ECL9 is Aquin. By the same token - there's no one active in ECL7 either...
whitebaron 10-17-07, 04:21 PM	Hmm... actually, Drac's seems to be up again, it's just really slow (I've been loading it for 10 minutes and it's up to CL 6). I'll get on it. the problem seems to be, that the gleemax forums themselves are slow atm. no crawler can perform any better than the thing crawled... but you could optimize the crawler. make it incremental, or remember things for the next run. don't know though what's already done in there and what not.
whitebaron 10-17-07, 04:40 PM	please note that wooly is marked as active, and should be crafting not paired...
MindWandererB 10-17-07, 04:45 PM	please note that wooly is marked as active, and should be crafting not paired... That's not what his title line says. "ECL 4: Ready for October 10 - Scribe Scrolls" means that you're fighting in the arena, and crafting as a free activity. You need to say FULL somewhere in there. However, since I haven't put the pairings up yet, it's easy enough to change him. Pairings may take a while--every edit I save takes a very long time to load. Just moving Ignatius and Loddick to the graveyard (I'm sad to see Loddick retired without ceremony) took about 15 minutes. So please be patient.
lonewolf 10-17-07, 04:52 PM	I could take another fight this week if needed.
Taureus_Drakken 10-17-07, 04:58 PM	I can take a fight this week if needed. I know I failed miserably the other week with two fights, but unforeseen R-L situations sprang up, and I didn't have a chance to get them finished. Things are rolling more smoothly this week, so there won't be any issues. ¬Taureus¬
whitebaron 10-17-07, 05:09 PM	That's not what his title line says. "ECL 4: Ready for October 10 - Scribe Scrolls" means that you're fighting in the arena, and crafting as a free activity. You need to say FULL somewhere in there. However, since I haven't put the pairings up yet, it's easy enough to change him. actually i took the title line from what's given in the default character sheet. there's no full in there. so this should be edited to correspond to this tag if it is needed. having no fight in the title is enough according to that default sheet. ECL ?: Ready for (Month) (Day) - (Full Activity)
MindWandererB 10-17-07, 05:18 PM	Pairings are partially done (I had to save them so I could reboot my computer--I think I have a memory leak or something, there always comes a point where IE can't open new tabs anymore), but we have a serious pitlord shortage. 18 fights covered at most; 23 fights being run. I need volunteers or we go to a state of emergency.
Eamane 10-17-07, 05:19 PM	I can cover another fight; I'd offer two more, but I have a heavy paper to write this week.
TelinArtho 10-17-07, 05:23 PM	Pairings are partially done (I had to save them so I could reboot my computer--I think I have a memory leak or something, there always comes a point where IE can't open new tabs anymore), but we have a serious pitlord shortage. 18 fights covered at most; 23 fights being run. I need volunteers or we go to a state of emergency. And if it means not going into a state of emergency - drop Aquin from active this week. Not that I wouldn't want to fight a monster - but in light of the pitlord shortage - there's no need to have an unnecessary monster fight.
MindWandererB 10-17-07, 05:25 PM	I also could convert a couple of fights into multiplayer, but that just means more work for fewer people. I'll consider those if I don't get enough volunteers.
Hirumajoe 10-17-07, 05:27 PM	I'd offer to run a fight, except I'm flying to a conference in Hannover, Germany on Friday and won't be back for a week. If its helpful, feel free to drop either Valen Sky or Kai Engel (or both).
lonewolf 10-17-07, 05:47 PM	In case you missed it, I offered to take a second fight earlier, but I cannot take more than 2 this week.
MindWandererB 10-17-07, 05:50 PM	In case you missed it, I offered to take a second fight earlier, but I cannot take more than 2 this week. I saw it, thanks. It's doable at this point: I have 20 fights covered and can pare the pairings down to 20 by eliminating the characters whose players have volunteered to take them out, but I'll give it a little more time for volunteers.
Vathelokai 10-17-07, 06:06 PM	Throw me an extra one.
Rauul 10-17-07, 06:10 PM	you can remove Gol'ie O'rean from the roster.. Sorry didn't realize i had him set to ready (and i don't have the credits to activate 3)
Pitlords 10-17-07, 06:38 PM	Pairings are done. I'm having issues loading the Battles thread (probably because of the load on the servers right now), but the one in the Characters thread is updated. Credits Eamane F3 A-1 Erithmu F2 C3 lonewolf F3 Macbrea F2 Rauul F1 Q2 A-1 TelinArtho F3 C3 A1 A-1 Q-2 templer10 F4 Vathelokai F2 whitebaron F3 A-1 MindWandererB A2 SauroGrenom A1 Key: F=Fight, Q=Quest, C=Campaign, G=Guildmaster, A=Admin or Active Characters
Rauul 10-17-07, 06:42 PM	Pairings are done. I'm having issues loading the Battles thread (probably because of the load on the servers right now), but the one in the Characters thread is updated. # Dentik Earthmolder (TelinArtho) miniquests for earth elementals: Rauul [Miniquest] # Ialgo (TelinArtho) miniquests for air and fire elementals: Rauul [Miniquest] Umm boss this is Actually a Full 3 week quest (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=936916)instead of 2 miniquests Elemental War [ECL 4] (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=936916)
Pitlords 10-17-07, 06:47 PM	# Dentik Earthmolder (TelinArtho) miniquests for earth elementals: Rauul [Miniquest] # Ialgo (TelinArtho) miniquests for air and fire elementals: Rauul [Miniquest] Umm boss this is Actually a Full 3 week quest (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=936916)instead of 2 miniquests Elemental War [ECL 4] (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=936916) Whoops. On it.
Rauul 10-17-07, 07:06 PM	Flutterthought (MindWandererB) vs. Graashnak Vruuurk (Rauul) : TelinArtho [Temple] Graashnak looks for his potion of see invisible and notice that Gakhnalak had filled it with Ale.. Cussing in orcish he goes to the the Arena manager and gives him a note Dear Flutterbutt, U win, i have a hang over, will wait for your ears get bigger and take them for my belt, till then.. go get drunk Drunk as always Graashnak Vruuurk Pssstt save your time righting tactics MWB... it's an offical surrender :banghead:
whitebaron 10-17-07, 07:14 PM	and again, one of callix's characters vs. gwerdan. (and yet again, on the plains.) looks like fate had declared you the tester of my character. :) and i'm looking forward to verrens first encounter vs. a melee-combattant. (without color spray from memory- :doh:)
Vathelokai 10-17-07, 07:18 PM	Is Go'lie still being paired? I can take over whatever it gets changed to. Monster info for lord Lorian is up... 4 ettin.
Vathelokai 10-17-07, 07:21 PM	Zodiac II (Vathelokai) vs. Tanriel (Luni) : Eamane [Arena] Antalya (Vathelokai) vs. Reginald Molehusband (hogarth) : templer10 [Temple] Wheeeee! I'll get some tactics after dinner.
MindWandererB 10-17-07, 07:27 PM	Flutterthought (MindWandererB) vs. Graashnak Vruuurk (Rauul) : TelinArtho [Temple] Graashnak looks for his potion of see invisible and notice that Gakhnalak had filled it with Ale.. Cussing in orcish he goes to the the Arena manager and gives him a note Dear Flutterbutt, U win, i have a hang over, will wait for your ears get bigger and take them for my belt, till then.. go get drunk Drunk as always Graashnak Vruuurk Pssstt save your time righting tactics MWB... it's an offical surrender :banghead: I was wondering if that would be your reaction as soon as I saw that come up. It's been too long since there was a pixie in the arena; people have gotten complacent. Also... I had a great feeling of nostalgia when doing the pairings this week. We've had so many heavy hitters around here lately, it was good to see a few characters like Antalya and Lord Frost back in action. And Flutterthought (who, at this level, is a lot like Sliver Firebug) helped with that feeling, too. P.S. Gakhnalak takes himself way too seriously to do pranks like that. Although Flutterthought may have framed him....
Rauul 10-17-07, 07:29 PM	Is Go'lie still being paired? I can take over whatever it gets changed to. Monster info for lord Lorian is up... 4 ettin. yea, will send out tactics in a few... even with this i will be up 2 credits to -2 (i'm a working my way out of the hole)
Rauul 10-17-07, 07:32 PM	P.S. Gakhnalak takes himself way too seriously to do pranks like that. Although Flutterthought may have framed him.... hehe proably was the little fairy.. I almost blamed an elf.. but couldn't think of one that is active... But you can bet there will be a Potion of see invis on his sheet after this...
Rauul 10-17-07, 07:40 PM	@vath tactics for Gol'ie sent... His tactics are easy... as he is only a level 1 :)
Taureus_Drakken 10-17-07, 07:48 PM	@ Rauul: Tactics for Ackbar sent. ¬Taureus¬
MindWandererB 10-17-07, 07:54 PM	hehe proably was the little fairy.. I almost blamed an elf.. but couldn't think of one that is active... But you can bet there will be a Potion of see invis on his sheet after this... See invis is a personal-range spell... not a legal spell to make a potion from. If it were only that easy....
Macbrea 10-17-07, 07:54 PM	By the way.. don't know if you noticed MWB. I also put these up on Mal-2 site while working on stuff. Just in case of emergancy. http://wormhole.ath.cx/~mektos/coco/pairer.php http://wormhole.ath.cx/~mektos/coco/spider.php
Rauul 10-17-07, 07:56 PM	@whitebaron Tactics for Gortek sent... should be a Fast fight... 2 raging dwarfs..
Macbrea 10-17-07, 07:58 PM	@whitebaron: Tactics for Lord Matsuni have been sent. This should be a fast fight.
Rauul 10-17-07, 08:01 PM	See invis is a personal-range spell... not a legal spell to make a potion from. If it were only that easy.... mutters and it can't be cast by an NPC either... will do something :)
MindWandererB 10-17-07, 08:07 PM	By the way.. don't know if you noticed MWB. I also put these up on Mal-2 site while working on stuff. Just in case of emergancy. http://wormhole.ath.cx/~mektos/coco/pairer.php http://wormhole.ath.cx/~mektos/coco/spider.php Thanks, those will come in handy... although I wish they were updated. I've posted them with the other utility links. Oh, and I just finished updating the fight counts: congratulations to templer10 for being our third member to break the mark of 100 fights run (after Cat started counting), after Telin and Zevox. We should come up with some kind of reward for that... Cat was going to make it the Mind's Eye and other online material, but that got nixed.
Rauul 10-17-07, 08:13 PM	See invis is a personal-range spell... not a legal spell to make a potion from. If it were only that easy.... can it be bought as a Permanent spell?? for 5700gp at CL 10.. or is that out because of Personnel effect
Rauul 10-17-07, 08:15 PM	Thanks, those will come in handy... although I wish they were updated. I've posted them with the other utility links. Oh, and I just finished updating the fight counts: congratulations to templer10 for being our third member to break the mark of 100 fights run (after Cat started counting), after Telin and Zevox. We should come up with some kind of reward for that... Cat was going to make it the Mind's Eye and other online material, but that got nixed. title of "Core Coliseum Workaholic"
hogarth 10-17-07, 08:27 PM	title of "Core Coliseum Workaholic" Or your wife/girlfriend/S.O. gets the title of "World's Most Understanding Spouse". :)
MindWandererB 10-17-07, 08:53 PM	Or your wife/girlfriend/S.O. gets the title of "World's Most Understanding Spouse". :) Unless, like TheMagister, you get it all done at work... in which case you get some title involving the word "Slacker."
SauroGrenom 10-17-07, 09:01 PM	mutters and it can't be cast by an NPC either... will do something :) The best tactic is touchsight, but failing that go for a Hand of Glory or similar custom magic item.
TelinArtho 10-17-07, 09:24 PM	Thanks, those will come in handy... although I wish they were updated. I've posted them with the other utility links. Oh, and I just finished updating the fight counts: congratulations to templer10 for being our third member to break the mark of 100 fights run (after Cat started counting), after Telin and Zevox. We should come up with some kind of reward for that... Cat was going to make it the Mind's Eye and other online material, but that got nixed. The funny thing is - I used to number my fights before Cat started keeping track. I believe I was up to 88 or so before I stopped bothering... so I think I'm closer to what... 300?
TelinArtho 10-17-07, 09:36 PM	@MWB - I see an A-1 next to my name. Did you forget to remove Aquin from my active characters for the week when you did credits?
Eluria 10-17-07, 09:51 PM	Due to very unforseen and major prison violations posted by McJ and augmented by MWB, The Needle will forfeit this week and be posting in the training hall to adjust some things around. @Telin, McJ: OFFICIAL FORFEIT for Needle v Marius
Salrantol 10-17-07, 09:55 PM	@Macbrea: Tactics sent for Kilor Mintolo vs. The Eternal Dreamless Sleep via PM. Also, what's with the ECL6 league?? This is the 3rd week in a row I've faced a team there. It's getting old. Come on, people, activate your ECL 6s! (although, not next week, I'm not running an ECL 6 character next week dc: )
McJarvis 10-17-07, 10:09 PM	Due to very unforseen and major prison violations posted by McJ and augmented by MWB, The Needle will forfeit this week and be posting in the training hall to adjust some things around. @Telin, McJ: OFFICIAL FORFEIT for Needle v Marius While this is disappointing for me, I know it must be even more so for you. At least I didn't spend much time writing tactics. edit-> On a side note, Marius was the third person to face this gladiator. Let this be a lesson to ya'll: read your opponent's character sheet! You never know what nuggets you'll find. (not to mention that this is good practice for tactics writing)
McJarvis 10-17-07, 10:27 PM	Cat was going to make it the Mind's Eye and other online material, but that got nixed. I'll get behind that guilt trip. Bad elders, BAD! ;)
hogarth 10-17-07, 10:39 PM	@templer10: Tactics sent for Reginald Molehusband (ad nauseam).
Callix 10-17-07, 10:48 PM	@templer10: Petyr's tactics are sent. Grappler + Deflect Arrows + gunslinger = ......... At least he picked up a damage power last level.
Luni 10-17-07, 10:49 PM	@Macbrea: Tactics sent for Kilor Mintolo vs. The Eternal Dreamless Sleep via PM. Also, what's with the ECL6 league?? This is the 3rd week in a row I've faced a team there. It's getting old. Come on, people, activate your ECL 6s! (although, not next week, I'm not running an ECL 6 character next week dc: ) I don't think I even have an ECL 6. I got a bunch of 7-9 though.
Salrantol 10-17-07, 11:00 PM	I don't think I even have an ECL 6. I got a bunch of 7-9 though.Yeah, because it's the people that don't have ECL 6 characters that annoy me the most. Just because 4 weeks ago, I had 3 of them--people without ECL 6 characters bother me, so I pester them a lot. Expect an angry PM every week from me now, Luni! It's on!
hogarth 10-17-07, 11:00 PM	@Macbrea: Tactics sent for Kilor Mintolo vs. The Eternal Dreamless Sleep via PM. Also, what's with the ECL6 league?? This is the 3rd week in a row I've faced a team there. It's getting old. Come on, people, activate your ECL 6s! (although, not next week, I'm not running an ECL 6 character next week dc: ) If it helps, The Eternal Dreamless Sleep would be willing to graciously accept your surrender. :)
Rauul 10-17-07, 11:11 PM	Yeah, because it's the people that don't have ECL 6 characters that annoy me the most. Just because 4 weeks ago, I had 3 of them--people without ECL 6 characters bother me, so I pester them a lot. Expect an angry PM every week from me now, Luni! It's on! i have 1 ecl 6... shadow.. and Now a Half-orc.. so i have 2 EcL 6.. and you won't have any activated next week... Running and hiding are you??
Salrantol 10-17-07, 11:24 PM	No, I rotate my characters weekly, and it's Enoch's turn, and he hit ECL 7 a couple fights back.
Vathelokai 10-17-07, 11:29 PM	And tactics sent for Antalya against Reginald.
Rauul 10-17-07, 11:37 PM	No, I rotate my characters weekly, and it's Enoch's turn, and he hit ECL 7 a couple fights back. yea starting next week it will be my 2 ecl 6's, then my low levels.. back and forth..
Vathelokai 10-17-07, 11:43 PM	Burglary info for Zodiac sent to Eamane and Luni. EDIT: And tactics are out.
Rauul 10-18-07, 12:08 AM	Burglary info for Zodiac sent to Eamane and Luni. oh we finally have a thief... to bad u can't steal arrows...
Vathelokai 10-18-07, 12:18 AM	oh we finally have a thief... to bad u can't steal arrows... Burglary, intimidate, gather info, set traps, assassinate... This wizard does it all! :D Definitely need to pick up some more arrows.
Luni 10-18-07, 01:18 AM	Burglary info for Zodiac sent to Eamane and Luni. EDIT: And tactics are out. I sent you a PM Vath about he burglary and assassinate. My math disagrees with yours. Or else, I'm reading the rules wrong, which is very possible. @Eamane: Tactics will be sent in the morning. They won't be too complicated. :)
MindWandererB 10-18-07, 01:33 AM	@MWB - I see an A-1 next to my name. Did you forget to remove Aquin from my active characters for the week when you did credits?Yep.
Vathelokai 10-18-07, 01:56 AM	I sent you a PM Vath about he burglary and assassinate. My math disagrees with yours. Or else, I'm reading the rules wrong, which is very possible. @Eamane: Tactics will be sent in the morning. They won't be too complicated. :)You are correct on all counts. Simply overlooked some things. No free activities for Zodiac this week.
lonewolf 10-18-07, 02:04 AM	@templer: In the Chameleon vs Baelin fight, I think it will come to a situation where how you handle the delay penalty will affect the fight strongly, so I want to ask beforehand how you would deal with that situation so that we both can account for that in our tactics: - The Chameleon will have a buffed hide modifier that Baelin cannot see him and Baelin will be invisible so that The Chameleon will not see him. We will both be looking for the enemy. We will also both be moving silently enough not to be heard by the other. How would you use the delay penalty to enforce a fight in this case?
templer10 10-18-07, 02:55 AM	@templer: In the Chameleon vs Baelin fight, I think it will come to a situation where how you handle the delay penalty will affect the fight strongly, so I want to ask beforehand how you would deal with that situation so that we both can account for that in our tactics: - The Chameleon will have a buffed hide modifier that Baelin cannot see him and Baelin will be invisible so that The Chameleon will not see him. We will both be looking for the enemy. We will also both be moving silently enough not to be heard by the other. How would you use the delay penalty to enforce a fight in this case? Gah- Sneaks - and just about EVERYONE knows how i feel about those kinds of fights sigh.... (BAD MWB).... anyway -Ill need to look over spesific tactics And just how long can Baelin maintain invisibility But just on the top of my head - Assuming THey are about equal in thier ability to hide from each other - Ill probably cancel both For the length of time Both has equal chance to avoid each other - And if the invisibility break or ends and he doesnt want to put it back up you can hide again. p.s. - for the sake of my sanity - try to keep the Hiding to a minimum - Eaither of you basicly just need a full attack to win after all. (you might need 2).
whitebaron 10-18-07, 04:07 AM	@templer10: Petyr's tactics are sent. Grappler + Deflect Arrows + gunslinger = ......... At least he picked up a damage power last level. yep, with save against a decent willsave + vigor to back the hp back up. ;)
Luni 10-18-07, 04:14 AM	@Eamane: Tactics Sent.
Callix 10-18-07, 06:33 AM	@whitebaron: Tactics for Rennae sent. It's a good thing Rennae's at the end of her 3FC (and it was a very low-pp one), because Darian's got one helluva damage output. Still, anything's possible in a game with dice.
whitebaron 10-18-07, 07:08 AM	yeah, and it looks like i'll have a easy pitlording week despite getting 3 fights in - two raging dwarves, 2 psions focussing on one power to kill the other - should be done in one evening actually. ;)
Rauul 10-18-07, 07:39 AM	yeah, and it looks like i'll have a easy pitlording week despite getting 3 fights in - two raging dwarves, 2 psions focussing on one power to kill the other - should be done in one evening actually. ;) your not done yet??
lonewolf 10-18-07, 07:58 AM	Tactics for The Chameleon and Darian are sent.
Turanson 10-18-07, 09:03 AM	@vath tactics for Mineau sent
Macbrea 10-18-07, 09:25 AM	"Stupid hound...", mutters Lord Frost. As he prepares to enter an brawl.... Tactic's sent.
TelinArtho 10-18-07, 10:02 AM	The Needle (Eluria) vs Marius (McJarvis) is up. Guys - even in a surrender - it is important to not edit your sheet until the fight is posted. Flutterthought (MindWandererB) vs Graashnak Vruuurk (Rauul)
McJarvis 10-18-07, 10:04 AM	The Needle (Eluria) vs Marius (McJarvis) is up. Guys - even in a surrender - it is important to not edit your sheet until the fight is posted. I always manage to forget that fights can be re-scheduled up until the pitlord posts the battle post. Rewards are wrong- Marius has a horse ally.
TelinArtho 10-18-07, 10:25 AM	I always manage to forget that fights can be re-scheduled up until the pitlord posts the battle post. Rewards are wrong- Marius has a horse ally. Fixed.
MindWandererB 10-18-07, 02:28 PM	The Needle (Eluria) vs Marius (McJarvis) is up. Guys - even in a surrender - it is important to not edit your sheet until the fight is posted. Flutterthought (MindWandererB) vs Graashnak Vruuurk (Rauul) You lucky dog--two surrenders for you. Well, gives you time to get caught up. Sorry about the craft error (and glad you caught it--I just realized it after shutting my computer down for the night); I was trying to hurry up and get Gakhnalak ready for pairings, but he just barely leveled up so I had to scramble to set Flutterthought ready. I thought it was odd that I hadn't precalculated her Craft income, but I couldn't remember that there was a reason....
whitebaron 10-18-07, 03:19 PM	Darian's killing spree continues vs. Rennae @templer10&erithmu: tactics for verren the unlucky and gwerdan the lucky sent.
Callix 10-18-07, 04:33 PM	Darian's killing spree continues vs. Rennae @templer10&erithmu: tactics for verren the unlucky and gwerdan the lucky sent. Thanks whitebaron. There's a ouple of things I might've queried, but that 3 on the hide roll killed me. I was never very hopeful if he got the first shot in. In-combat Dice Pool: Rennae d4: 1 roll, 1 average d20: 5 rolls, 8 average Darian d20: 3 rolls, 15.3 average d6: 4 rolls, 4.3 average Kinda speaks for itself, huh?
TelinArtho 10-18-07, 04:55 PM	You lucky dog--two surrenders for you. Well, gives you time to get caught up. Yeah... about that. The situation in the team vs 1 fight is moving along, but a little slowly as I keep track of the light situation. It has been a real busy few weeks at work which has set me back lately - so hopefully things will lighten up some in the coming days to give me enough time to work out the rest.
whitebaron 10-18-07, 04:56 PM	Thanks whitebaron. There's a ouple of things I might've queried, but that 3 on the hide roll killed me. I was never very hopeful if he got the first shot in. actually, i was glad for the hedge to be there, just to give the dice the decision who shoots first. i was thinking about only readying for rennae then(not move) - but on the other hand, i'd have to give darian many listen checks when rennae moved. state your inquirys pls. - we all want to learn for the future. ;)
whitebaron 10-18-07, 04:57 PM	Yeah... about that. The situation in the team vs 1 fight is moving along, but a little slowly as I keep track of the light situation. It has been a real busy few weeks at work which has set me back lately - so hopefully things will lighten up some in the coming days to give me enough time to work out the rest. hehe. just lighten up the forest, and it'll go smoothly as the team would kill the psion in broad daylight *g*
templer10 10-18-07, 06:23 PM	Vath - tactics for lord lorin vs 4 soon to be dead ettins are out - 121 pps to burn....
MindWandererB 10-18-07, 07:10 PM	@lonewolf: FFA tactics are away. Raskos may not be as scary as he was during the IMT, but he's still scary.
Rauul 10-18-07, 07:20 PM	hehe. just lighten up the forest, and it'll go smoothly as the team would kill the psion in broad daylight *g* learn daylight spell :)
Erithmu 10-18-07, 07:50 PM	@lonewolf: FFA tactics are away. Raskos Yaurl may not be as scary as he was during the IMT, but he's still scary. Corrected that statement for you ...
MindWandererB 10-18-07, 07:54 PM	Corrected that statement for you ... No... Yaurl isn't scary at all anymore. But Raskos is.
Eluria 10-18-07, 08:04 PM	The Needle (Eluria) vs Marius (McJarvis) is up. Guys - even in a surrender - it is important to not edit your sheet until the fight is posted. Sorry about that TA; my bad. 2 quick things: Can you add the +69 gp craft income, and technically Needle still uses 1 use of disguise kit. Thanks!
Erithmu 10-18-07, 08:15 PM	@Telin: Tactics for Torel's psuedo-rematch away. He got his cohort back, I got 5th level spells. I think mine help more :) @MWB: thanks for the call on the direwolf ... he has been getting more action than my direbat.
hogarth 10-18-07, 09:42 PM	@Macbrea: tactics sent for Eternal Dreamless Sleep
MindWandererB 10-18-07, 10:12 PM	@Telin: Tactics for Torel's psuedo-rematch away. He got his cohort back, I got 5th level spells. I think mine help more :) @MWB: thanks for the call on the direwolf ... he has been getting more action than my direbat.:D NP. I wish I were always that good about learning from my mistakes....
Eamane 10-19-07, 07:13 AM	Zodiac vs Tanriel is up here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=14115118). Tangent: I thought one player cannot control more than one character in quests/miniquests? Much as one player cannot control more than one character in a party? I'm bringing it up because of "ML Rauul: Dentik Earthmolder (TelinArtho) and Ialgo (TelinArtho) quest for elemental allies." If this restriction on one, the other or the other has been dropped, I'd love to know about it, as I've been controlling two (or more) people at once in groups since 1st edition (Human warrior, halfling thief, GO! Backstabbing blue dragons, ftw.).
templer10 10-19-07, 07:19 AM	:D NP. I wish I were always that good about learning from my mistakes.... My personal favorite is the Animal Growted Augmented summoning dire wolf - that thing is scary.
hogarth 10-19-07, 07:30 AM	My personal favorite is the Animal Growted Augmented summoning dire wolf - that thing is scary. That's why you should always carry a couple of potions of protection from evil...
whitebaron 10-19-07, 07:53 AM	That's why you should always carry a couple of potions of protection from evil... switch to unicorns. ;) and summon more of them instead of growthing them. what always struck me as odd ist the difference in wording between prot. from evil and prot from good. according to the wording of the magic circles, the wording of the protection part is wrong. e.g. protection from evil: you ward against all nongood creatures protection from good: you ward against good creatures. (makes neutrals pass, why?) magic circle against evil: bind all nongood creatures. magic circle against good: bind all nonevil creatures. so, most likely, the wordings for pfg, pfc, pfl, are off. either any of these should work against neutral summons, or none.
TelinArtho 10-19-07, 10:49 AM	Zodiac vs Tanriel is up here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=14115118). Tangent: I thought one player cannot control more than one character in quests/miniquests? Much as one player cannot control more than one character in a party? I'm bringing it up because of "ML Rauul: Dentik Earthmolder (TelinArtho) and Ialgo (TelinArtho) quest for elemental allies." If this restriction on one, the other or the other has been dropped, I'd love to know about it, as I've been controlling two (or more) people at once in groups since 1st edition (Human warrior, halfling thief, GO! Backstabbing blue dragons, ftw.). Multicharacter quests existed far before the rules for Character Parties. If you look in the rules - there is nothing excluding one person from sending 2 of his own characters on the same quest. There used to be a line in there (from when I first came here) that said it needed GM approval - but I was actually the first one to run this type of quest (Bring Out Yer Dead! [EL3, Pulverizer and The Phantom Lord (Xanadu)]). Anyway - this the rule for Character Parties. Requirements: Anyone can team up; there are only two requirement: all characters must have the same amount of XP and no player may have more than one character in a party. If these requirements are met, write a PM to Pitlords and inform him of this new formation. Don't forget to include the name of your party (like the "Band of the Red Hand") and include links to all characters.
Luni 10-19-07, 12:21 PM	switch to unicorns. ;) and summon more of them instead of growthing them. what always struck me as odd ist the difference in wording between prot. from evil and prot from good. according to the wording of the magic circles, the wording of the protection part is wrong. e.g. protection from evil: you ward against all nongood creatures protection from good: you ward against good creatures. (makes neutrals pass, why?) magic circle against evil: bind all nongood creatures. magic circle against good: bind all nonevil creatures. so, most likely, the wordings for pfg, pfc, pfl, are off. either any of these should work against neutral summons, or none. Clearly it is just a mistake somewhere. :) I guess the designers aren't perfect.
MindWandererB 10-19-07, 03:59 PM	Clearly it is just a mistake somewhere. :) I guess the designers aren't perfect. Probably... but I've tried to research it in several places, and I never get an answer. And it's not exactly an obscure issue. So we run it the way it's written.
templer10 10-19-07, 05:05 PM	Chameleon VS baelin is done (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14115422&postcount=1399).
lonewolf 10-19-07, 05:13 PM	thanks for running. You seem to have missed that Baelin has uncanny dodge, so his AC should be higher and the last shot might not hit(not sure). This would mean that the fight takes a bit longer, but shouldnt make a difference in the long run.
templer10 10-19-07, 05:14 PM	thanks for running. You seem to have missed that Baelin has uncanny dodge, so his AC should be higher and the last shot might not hit(not sure). This would mean that the fight takes a bit longer, but shouldnt make a difference in the long run. sec Ill check Edit - it just barely Hits -28 VS 21+3 (force screen since he has buckler already) +2 (Shield of faith +2 (kneeling).
Malither76 10-19-07, 06:04 PM	I wrote templer10, I don't want an edit as the fight was a hassle to run as is but we need to clear up blink. the 50% miss chance is not concealment, it is never named anything beside 50% chance of physical attacks missing b/c of being ethereal or material. But if the target can see invisible or attack ethereal the blink is reduced to 20% miss chance due to concealment and if he can do both blink is negated all together. is this how everyone else sees it?
whitebaron 10-19-07, 06:28 PM	the battle of dwarves is up the most fearsome force after this fight will be, when they both hit the tavern, fully drunk.
lonewolf 10-19-07, 06:35 PM	one more thing I noticed and I let Malither decide if he wants a rerun because of this: True strike lets me ignore the miss chance from concealment, but actually not the concealment itself => The Chameleon cannot sneak attack there.
Rauul 10-19-07, 07:10 PM	the battle of dwarves is up the most fearsome force after this fight will be, when they both hit the tavern, fully drunk. Thanks for the Run.. The Dice hates me.. what can i say.. well time to level up Gortek.. As for your Comment.. look in skills (since money maker skills are usually listed there)
whitebaron 10-19-07, 07:33 PM	Thanks for the Run.. The Dice hates me.. what can i say.. well time to level up Gortek.. As for your Comment.. look in skills (since money maker skills are usually listed there) ah... there... used to find them on top of the sheet though... btw: you still have to add your cloak of res. to your saves as bonus in gray.
templer10 10-19-07, 07:49 PM	one more thing I noticed and I let Malither decide if he wants a rerun because of this: True strike lets me ignore the miss chance from concealment, but actually not the concealment itself => The Chameleon cannot sneak attack there. When you cast True strike you "are not affected by the miss chance that applies to attackers trying to strike a concealed target" If you arent affected by a miss chance, as far as i read it there is no concealment since there can't be concealment without that same miss chance. And malither - as far as i know - Blinks miss chance are composed of 20% being etherel (more or less) and 30% concealment - that is so since IF you can see invisibility (which IS full concealment) you only suffer the 20% miss chane when faced with blink. i.e. - if you can ignore the miss chance of concealment - like when using true strike - you get 20% miss cahnce on blink only.
Rauul 10-19-07, 07:53 PM	ah... there... used to find them on top of the sheet though... btw: you still have to add your cloak of res. to your saves as bonus in gray. I quit putting them on the top of the sheet to save Space when i had Corrupter and his 6 undead + cohort.. Yup added the cloak.. when i leveled him up.. now a threat up close and at distance..
Vathelokai 10-20-07, 01:28 AM	The first part of Lord Lorian vs 4 phrenic Ettins is up. Must sleep now...
Vathelokai 10-21-07, 01:56 AM	The first part of Lord Lorian vs 4 phrenic Ettins is up. Must sleep now... And the second part is up. Down to the home stretch...
SauroGrenom 10-21-07, 11:23 AM	Chameleon VS baelin is done (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14115422&postcount=1399). Although it's probably not an issue for this fight, there's something you should know for future reference. When a character makes a listen check, the character cannot know metagame info such as if the listen check exceeded the DC by 20... So a character can never know if he has succeeded at pinpointing a foe with a listen check. Rather every time that a listen check beats the DC by anything, the character thinks that they have pinpointed the opponent, but they may be wrong. So GM rolls the dice for random possibilities in the 10' area (or whatever), and the character targets that square. In some cases, that square may be empty. This is particularly bad for spell casters with targeted spells, but other attackers have to deal with the same issue. In effect it's meaningless for a player to write tactics that trigger when the character "pinpoints" his foe, because the character cannot distinguish between beating the listen DC by 1 or 20. The GM is forced to play these kinds of tactics as attacking whenever the character makes a successful listen check.
templer10 10-21-07, 11:36 AM	Although it's probably not an issue for this fight, there's something you should know for future reference. When a character makes a listen check, the character cannot know metagame info such as if the listen check exceeded the DC by 20... So a character can never know if he has succeeded at pinpointing a foe with a listen check. Rather every time that a listen check beats the DC by anything, the character thinks that they have pinpointed the opponent, but they may be wrong. So GM rolls the dice for random possibilities in the 10' area (or whatever), and the character targets that square. In some cases, that square may be empty. This is particularly bad for spell casters with targeted spells, but other attackers have to deal with the same issue. In effect it's meaningless for a player to write tactics that trigger when the character "pinpoints" his foe, because the character cannot distinguish between beating the listen DC by 1 or 20. The GM is forced to play these kinds of tactics as attacking whenever the character makes a successful listen check. err- Might be True - but it's definently NOT how i seen it run around here for the last year or so... also - i always thought that if you get above 20 in the check or manage the pinpoint check you are SURE you heared id from that exacly squere and if you didnt make the check you simply didnt hear it good enough to know which squere it was from - the thing is, as i see it - that running it any other way means that for listen to be worth a damn you need to be able to consistently get 20 above the otehr guy MS, which is essentially impossible.
SauroGrenom 10-21-07, 01:40 PM	err- Might be True - but it's definently NOT how i seen it run around here for the last year or so... That would simply be because people need a periodic reminder of how metagame info should and shouldn't be a part of what the characters know in the battles. also - i always thought that if you get above 20 in the check or manage the pinpoint check you are SURE you heared id from that exacly squere and if you didnt make the check you simply didnt hear it good enough to know which squere it was from - the thing is, as i see it - that running it any other way means that for listen to be worth a damn you need to be able to consistently get 20 above the otehr guy MS, which is essentially impossible.Although that's not an unreasonable thing to think, it doesn't say anything about that in the rules we use in CoCo. In the core rules, if your listen check beats the DC by 1-19 you hear someone and have no idea where they are at (behind you, to the left or right, nothing is clear). Then when you beat the DC by 20, you know where you heard the sound coming from. So in the core rule, the only time you get a "square" as the origin of the sound is if you beat the DC by 20. So that's easy for a character to deal with as a trigger of a particular response. In the CoCo the earliest elders invented a house rule that created a sliding scale between knowing exactly where a sound comes from, and knowing that the source is near but having no idea where it's at. However when the listen check is between 1-19 better than the DC, this house rule has the effect of generating a "square" where you heard the opponent. There's no way for a character to know if it's the correct square or not. You see the difference? According to core rules, you only get a square if you meet the criterion of pinpointing your foe with a listen check. According to CoCo house rules, you may get an incorrect square if you beat the listen check by 1-19. However in this case, there's no way for the character to know the values of the dice rolls and if the perceived square is the correct one. The effect on combat is not simple, not terribly complicated either. In CoCo the lower requirements for getting a general location make it easier for those using AoE effects, or who have access to Scent or Touchsight or Invisibility Purge or Dispel Magic and so on. Where the same rule makes battle potentially more difficult for those who rely on targeted attacks and have no other way to locate a foe. Anyway, I'm not saying that you need to edit the battle. I'm just saying that if you're interested in running them according to the rules as written, then you will need to keep that in mind in the future. Players with sneaky characters should be aware of the RAW on this, and they may ask you to edit your battles to adhere to the RAW. It's a prudent thing as a pitlord to potentially save you the time of a rerun and keep this in mind.
Rauul 10-21-07, 01:45 PM	err- Might be True - but it's definently NOT how i seen it run around here for the last year or so... also - i always thought that if you get above 20 in the check or manage the pinpoint check you are SURE you heared id from that exacly squere and if you didnt make the check you simply didnt hear it good enough to know which squere it was from - the thing is, as i see it - that running it any other way means that for listen to be worth a damn you need to be able to consistently get 20 above the otehr guy MS, which is essentially impossible. Thats what makes Sneak builds So difficult... to Play and to run.. you need consistent 10+ listen vs Move silently to pin point.. Just cause you heard a noise doesn't mean you know where the noise came from.. U have to work your way to that sound... especially if you can't see anything I know you hate Sneak builds.. but your need to get over that and get used to them... cause they are here to stay... Have been around since the first D&D game, and will be around till the last one is played...
hogarth 10-21-07, 02:35 PM	err- Might be True - but it's definently NOT how i seen it run around here for the last year or so... also - i always thought that if you get above 20 in the check or manage the pinpoint check you are SURE you heared id from that exacly squere and if you didnt make the check you simply didnt hear it good enough to know which squere it was from - the thing is, as i see it - that running it any other way means that for listen to be worth a damn you need to be able to consistently get 20 above the otehr guy MS, which is essentially impossible. You're right -- if you beat the check by 20, you pinpoint: It’s practically impossible to pinpoint the location of an invisible creature. A Listen check that beats the DC by 20 pinpoints the invisible creature’s location. That's right in the core rules.
Vathelokai 10-21-07, 02:42 PM	Yes, but the question is if the PC can tell the difference between pinpointing and just hearing a noise and thinking it's 'right over there'.
hogarth 10-21-07, 02:47 PM	Yes, but the question is if the PC can tell the difference between pinpointing and just hearing a noise and thinking it's 'right over there'. There are no rules in the SRD (as far as I know) regarding the possibility of "incorrectly pinpointing" -- you either pinpoint a noise or you don't. The fact that we've made up some new rules saying "you can kinda, sorta almost pinpoint a noise if you roll pretty good" should negate that part of the core rules (IMO).
templer10 10-21-07, 03:13 PM	sassetar (Nurlithion) vs. Sylean'delues (bgt) : templer10 [Arena] is done and here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14132905&postcount=1401) - the lesson here - a mounted character really should have it trained in cmobat riding...
SauroGrenom 10-21-07, 03:21 PM	There are no rules in the SRD (as far as I know) regarding the possibility of "incorrectly pinpointing" -- you either pinpoint a noise or you don't. The fact that we've made up some new rules saying "you can kinda, sorta almost pinpoint a noise if you roll pretty good" should negate that part of the core rules (IMO).I'm not sure from your comments and from Vath's where you two stand on this, but the point really is that characters don't know the results of the dice rolls, or the DC's that they are working against. In fact at a Table Top, the players may not even know what kind of roll they are making, is it a save, is it a skill check? In CoCo our characters have no additional information. They cannot know if they beat the listen DC by 15 or 150. In a normal TT, they only get location info if they beat the DC by 20. In CoCo they get location info if they beat the DC by 1 or more. But there is no clear statements about how "sure" the character is of his opponent's location. Please read the following copied from our rules: Move Silently and Listen Move Silently and Listen work similarly to Spot. Specifically: Moving Silently is not an action; a character will automatically try to move silently. Don't forget about the -5 for moving faster than half speed, though, or the -20 for running; as house rules, a character who attacks with a manufactured or natural weapon (including an unarmed strike) makes a Move Silently check with a -20 penalty, and a character who casts a spell with a verbal component or uses a command word can be heard with a DC 0 Listen check. A character gets one reactive Listen roll every round in their opponent's round. For the distance modifier, use the closest distance the opponent was to the listener in the round (or, if the opponent did something particularly noisy, use the distance they were at when they performed that action). If the spotter wants to make a Listen roll during his own action, he can use a move action to do so. Finally, the rules don't specify how precisely someone's position is determined if the Listen roll beats the Move Silently, but by less than 20. We use the following estimate: If the Listen roll beats the Move Silently by 0-4, randomize within 20'; this is 61 possible positions in 2D, or a lot more in 3D: | | | |*|*|*| | | | | |*|*|*|*|*|*|*| | | |*|*|*|*|*|*|*| | |*|*|*|*|*|*|*|*|*| |*|*|*|*|@|*|*|*|*| |*|*|*|*|*|*|*|*|*| | |*|*|*|*|*|*|*| | | |*|*|*|*|*|*|*| | | | | |*|*|*| | | | By 5-9: within 15'; randomize between 37 squares in 2d, 179 in 3d. | | |*|*|*| | | | |*|*|*|*|*| | |*|*|*|*|*|*|*| |*|*|*|@|*|*|*| |*|*|*|*|*|*|*| | |*|*|*|*|*| | | | |*|*|*| | | By 10-14: within 10'; randomize between 21 squares in 2d, 91 in 3d. | |*|*|*| | |*|*|*|*|*| |*|*|@|*|*| |*|*|*|*|*| | |*|*|*| | By 15-19: within 5'; randomize between 9 squares in 2d, 27 in 3d. |*|*|*| |*|@|*| |*|*|*| By 20 or more: pinpoint. OK, so the pitlord is using these charts to determine how precisely you know someone's position. But the pitlord is also not allowing the characters to act based on metagame info that the characters cannot possibly have, like knowing the results of the dice rolls and DC's. The pitlord uses these charts to tell the character where they "think" the sound comes from. If the roll is better, then the chances of actually knowing the source of the sound is better. But there is no mechanism whereby the character determines a level of certainty with respect to the source of the sound. Do you see? This house rule creates an uncertainty that doesn't exist in the way the skill is used in the SRD. In the SRD, you know the source of the sound, or you don't. So you know if you pinpoint or not simply by knowing a location or not. With the above house rule get a location with a lower listen check, but you are never "certain" if the check was good enough to actually know the source of the sound or just get close to it. There's no mechanism where by the character can distinguish between a success on the listen check by 1 or by 20.
hogarth 10-21-07, 03:24 PM	Do you see? This house rule creates an uncertainty that doesn't exist in the way the skill is used in the SRD. I agree. I'm saying that our house rule shouldn't make the existing core rule useless (i.e. making your Listen check by 20 should still be a pinpoint and the gladiator should be confident that he has located the correct square).
Nurlithion 10-21-07, 03:24 PM	Thanks for the run, templer10. I wasn't expecting to get a crit, but I'm not complaining!
SauroGrenom 10-21-07, 03:35 PM	I agree. I'm saying that our house rule shouldn't make the existing core rule useless (i.e. making your Listen check by 20 should still be a pinpoint and the gladiator should be confident that he has located the correct square). Ok, so we agree that beating the listen check by 20 is a pinpoint, but how is the gladiator to know the difference between beating the DC by 20 or beating it by 1? In Core SRD rules, the gladiator know because if he beats the DC by 20, he gets a location and beating it by less than 20 results in a noise being heard w/o a sense of location. In CoCo beating it by 0 or more results in a location. So in Core SRD, the gladiator has in-game in-character info to work with and results in his confidence. He has a location or not. While in CoCo he has a location all the time, and no way to tell if it's good or not. You're suggesting a "confidence" mechanism that doesn't actually exist in the rules. Well it sort of exists as a metagame consequence of Core rules since you get a location when you pinpoint. But that "confidence" mechanism is invalidated by the CoCo rule, and there is no explicit or implicit mechanism to replace it. You're "confidence" in the quality of a listen check is not an actual rule rather it's a consequence of the core rules, furthermore it's a consequence that cannot be drawn from the CoCo house rules replacing the core rules. As such it doesn't actually exist in our rules system.
whitebaron 10-21-07, 04:33 PM	the core rules are crap when it comes to listen/spot. they are worded badly, inconsitently, and i think nobody ever cared much about that - since it's up to the dm anyway. if he does want you to hear it, you will - else, you won't. if you use pinpoint as a mechanism to find someone, it's metagaming, none more or less. i think core rules would need a pinpoint system like coco has.
hogarth 10-21-07, 06:23 PM	if you use pinpoint as a mechanism to find someone, it's metagaming, none more or less. i think core rules would need a pinpoint system like coco has. Let me get this straight. The game designers came up with the concept of pinpointing, but PCs shouldn't be allowed to use it because knowing that you pinpointed someone is metagaming? :confused:
whitebaron 10-21-07, 06:51 PM	who runs faster? (aka Vaernya vs. Matsuni) is up. Let me get this straight. The game designers came up with the concept of pinpointing, but PCs shouldn't be allowed to use it because knowing that you pinpointed someone is metagaming? :confused: the concept of pinpointing itself is already metagaming. you know via the mechanics, if your check was successful enough or not. that's not real life, that's not rpg. that's illusory. either you hear something, then you might know where it's from. or you don't hear it.
SauroGrenom 10-21-07, 07:07 PM	Let me get this straight. The game designers came up with the concept of pinpointing, but PCs shouldn't be allowed to use it because knowing that you pinpointed someone is metagaming? :confused:I think that what he's trying to say is that "pinpoint" is something that has a particular meaning in core rules and that doesn't apply to CoCo rules. Think of it this way. How is pinpointing defined? The answer is that it's defined as making a listen check that beats the DC by 20 points. A character never actually knows the checks or the DC's that metagame info. Rather the character knows the effect that happens when you beat the DC by 20 or more, ie the character hears the location of the source of a sound. So using the core rules there's a "readout" on the dice rolls and DC values. CoCo house rules have changed the threshold of where the character gets a "readout" on the dice results. Now there's no way to distinguish between when the character gets a pinpoint or when the character gets close. The definition of pinpoint hasn't changed per-se. Rather the ability of the character to distinguish between a pinpoint and hearing a foe with a listen check that beats the DC by 2 is obliterated by our house rule. Using core rules, it's easy to distinguish between beating the DC by 5 or by 20. If you beat it by 0-19 you hear the foe but have no location, where beating it by 20+ gives a location. The character has actual rules system output to decide if his listen check was good enough. So there is no need to use metagame info. Using CoCo rules there is no actual rules system output that distinguishes between beating the DC by 0-19 or by 20+. Only metagame info distinguishes these two classifications of "success" on the listen check. And metagame info is off limits for tactics.
Erithmu 10-21-07, 07:33 PM	Varren vs Kykal Deer in headlights moment.
whitebaron 10-21-07, 07:39 PM	nope, that's not what i wanted to say. the whole pinpoint-concept is already taking the dice result to influence the characters actions. it's metagaming, out-and-out.
whitebaron 10-21-07, 08:03 PM	Varren vs Kykal Deer in headlights moment. well, actually i meant to cast true strike for the first hit, and move away if he is to close. but i can understand that this is not explicitly written in my tactics and will mark it as a loss. and it's Verren! at least give him that - his social grace is the only thing halfway intact. :)
SauroGrenom 10-21-07, 08:21 PM	nope, that's not what i wanted to say. the whole pinpoint-concept is already taking the dice result to influence the characters actions. it's metagaming, out-and-out. To a certain extent everything in the game is determined by dice rolls compared against a threshold value. So your argument will extent to say that everything in the game is to some extent a metagame action. This isn't actually the case. Metagaming is using the dice rolls directly to determine an action of a character. It's perfectly legitimate to use results of rice rolls interpreted through the game system to be a basis of actions. For example it's metagaming to say that if your opponent is attacking with a +15, you will manifest force screen. But it's not metagaming to say that if your opponent hits you 3 times in a row, you will manifest force screen... Similarly it is metagaming to say that if your listen check beats the DC by 20+ you will shoot an arrow at the square. However it isn't metagaming to say that if you get a location of your opponent you will shoot an arrow at the square. In this particular case, according to core rules pinpointing a foe is an ingame result of meeting a particular threshold of success. It's just like making a diplomacy skill check talking to some guys. There are effectively multiple DC's and the better you roll the better the effect of the skill. In the case of the listen check, the way the core skill is written there are effectively two DC's for the check. One DC is +20 over the other, and it has a second effect. That second effect is that you get a location of the source of the sound (what we are calling a pinpoint). In our CoCo house rule, you get a location if you beat the DC by 0 or more. There is no longer an ingame difference to the character between beating the DC by 1 or by 21. In both cases the character gets a location of the source of the sound (possibly incorrect) . Using CoCo rules a "pinpoint" still exists per-se. It's just that there no longer anything but metagame info to distinguish it from a listen check that succeeds by 1. All I'm getting at is that in core rules, knowing when you pinpoint a foe with a listen check is not metagaming. But using CoCo rules knowing when you pinpoint a foe is metagaming, and not allowed.
MindWandererB 10-21-07, 10:15 PM	The problem as I see it is that with our "matrix" rules, a PC always thinks they got a pinpoint. They always choose a specific square they think the sound comes from. So I actually see it the other way--it's not that the PC can never be confident that they chose right, it's that they always think they did. Which amounts to the same thing.
Vathelokai 10-21-07, 10:48 PM	Lord Lorian vs 4 Phrenic Ettins may be finished. I would like an elder or GM to confim my decision to have the last ettin standing retreat/surrender (it was out of phrenic attack powers, and had no way to catch up with Lorian because the sewer is too cramped).
SauroGrenom 10-21-07, 11:34 PM	Lord Lorian vs 4 Phrenic Ettins may be finished. I would like an elder or GM to confim my decision to have the last ettin standing retreat/surrender (it was out of phrenic attack powers, and had no way to catch up with Lorian because the sewer is too cramped). As it was run, there's noting much for the ettin to do. If I had run it, the ettin's with an int of 8 would have used the mind thrusts to take down the mount at the beginning as soon as it appeared to be moving so fast that it was a problem for the strategy of getting into melee. This would have been especially certain to happen when Lorian proved to be protected with PR and was using mounted combat to gain a further bonus to AC and defeat melee. For example in round 6, I would have had Delta mindthrust that pegasus through the grate. Basically I would have run the ettins as a bit smarter than that, but given the situation at the end that last ettin has nothing to do but die. A surrender is totally reasonable.
Vathelokai 10-22-07, 12:25 AM	Gol'ie vs Mineau is finished.
Vathelokai 10-22-07, 12:33 AM	As it was run, there's noting much for the ettin to do. If I had run it, the ettin's with an int of 8 would have used the mind thrusts to take down the mount at the beginning as soon as it appeared to be moving so fast that it was a problem for the strategy of getting into melee. This would have been especially certain to happen when Lorian proved to be protected with PR and was using mounted combat to gain a further bonus to AC and defeat melee. For example in round 6, I would have had Delta mindthrust that pegasus through the grate. Basically I would have run the ettins as a bit smarter than that, but given the situation at the end that last ettin has nothing to do but die. A surrender is totally reasonable.I see your point, but I think of int 8 as being a bit duller than that. The strategy was to back him into a tunnel and surround him. They did that no problem. I made a conscious decision that they couldn't identify the PR, since they have no knowledges or psicraft. For all they knew he was making his save every time. Basically I ran them as overconfident; they didn't set up a good contingency for how to react if beating on him for 4 straight rounds didn't do anything. Thanks for chiming in.
whitebaron 10-22-07, 04:07 AM	I see your point, but I think of int 8 as being a bit duller than that. it's the same question i already asked when i started in coco and had to run dajeus monster fight - how smart can you do them? it seems every single player here has different opinions on that.
McJarvis 10-22-07, 08:53 AM	I see your point, but I think of int 8 as being a bit duller than that. Are we supposed to roleplay the intelligence? I've never seen a gladiator told he had to take dumbed down tactics due to his char having lower int.
hogarth 10-22-07, 08:55 AM	Are we supposed to roleplay the intelligence? I've never seen a gladiator told he had to take dumbed down tactics due to his char having lower int. Not for PCs, but for monsters. For instance, I'd be cheesed off if I were fighting a dire wolf and the tactics said something like "Since I know he has a scroll of Freedom of Movement, I won't grapple. Instead I'll try to sunder his wand with a bite and then bull rush him into the lava pit. Woof."
McJarvis 10-22-07, 09:11 AM	Not for PCs, but for monsters. For instance, I'd be cheesed off if I were fighting a dire wolf and the tactics said something like "Since I know he has a scroll of Freedom of Movement, I won't grapple. Instead I'll try to sunder his wand with a bite and then bull rush him into the lava pit. Woof." I really see no problem with this. Otherwise a low int will practically always mean an autowin for the gladiator. [ such as in this case where the monsters used ineffective ranged attacks until they could no longer hurt the gladiator in question ]
hogarth 10-22-07, 09:39 AM	I really see no problem with this. Otherwise a low int will practically always mean an autowin for the gladiator. [ which is why it's pretty safe to hunt animals when using modern techniques] I seem to recall some squawking when the Battlesong Duet fought a lion who jumped over a Grease spell mid-charge (although that was TheMagister and not you)... I don't know if you were around for this, but at one point I looked over 4-6 months' worth of monster fights and looked at the win/loss ratio. As you astutely point out, unintelligent monsters did much worse than average (because of limited tactical ability and a lack of equipment) and intelligent monsters (with equipment) did much better than average. So the total win/loss ratio was about even. I guess if we wanted to skew the win/loss ratio for monster fights in favour of the monsters we could encourage complicated tactics for unintelligent foes. But I would find it aesthetically distasteful to see something like: Round 5: Your PC flies forward, triggering the gelatinous cube's readied action. It reaches out of its hiding spot in the forest canopy and does a sunder attack on your Boots of Flying, fighting defensively.
McJarvis 10-22-07, 09:48 AM	So the total win/loss ratio was about even. If that's the goal, why not just flip a coin when a monster fight is rolled? It would certainly be easier on pitlords. I guess if we wanted to skew the win/loss ratio for monster fights in favour of the monsters we could encourage complicated tactics for unintelligent foes. I would prefer some work be put in to make the monster fights not require pitlord interpretation in order to make them an appropriate challenge. The pitlord should always be able to treat the monster like a PC and come out about even. edit-> As far as your example goes, I already find it displeasing to think of sundering boots in any kind of situation. However, if it were to sunder a sword with its acid attack then I definately wouldn't have a problem with it.
Rauul 10-22-07, 10:13 AM	Gol'ie vs Mineau is finished. thank you for the run
whitebaron 10-22-07, 10:42 AM	Not for PCs, but for monsters. For instance, I'd be cheesed off if I were fighting a dire wolf and the tactics said something like "Since I know he has a scroll of Freedom of Movement, I won't grapple. Instead I'll try to sunder his wand with a bite and then bull rush him into the lava pit. Woof." well, there was a discussion about monster fights already going on in the council, and there was a proposal (not sure, either sauro or telin?) on how to do tactics for monsters of a given int. i think, that pitlords should run monsters at a good ability, but not necessarily best. always playing sub-optimal just makes it auto-win, and dumb... its not always as easy as roc vs wizard, plains. pitlords should account for that in their monster tactics.
Luni 10-22-07, 02:27 PM	If that's the goal, why not just flip a coin when a monster fight is rolled? It would certainly be easier on pitlords. I would prefer some work be put in to make the monster fights not require pitlord interpretation in order to make them an appropriate challenge. The pitlord should always be able to treat the monster like a PC and come out about even. edit-> As far as your example goes, I already find it displeasing to think of sundering boots in any kind of situation. However, if it were to sunder a sword with its acid attack then I definately wouldn't have a problem with it. Gelatinous cubes shouldn't be sundering anything! :) It's tough to run monsters because you want to make the fight challenging, and not have it roll over the PC. If my lion jumps over a grease spell that it never knew about then that's cheating. If it has slipped on the grease before, that's fine. Animal intelligence or lower should be played as find PC, eat PC. Intelligence 3-7: Find PC, hurt PC. If tactics aren't working, change strategy in 3-4 rounds. Intelligence 8+: Find PC, kill PC. If tactics don't work, change them in 1-2 rounds. Just my two cents.
lonewolf 10-22-07, 02:37 PM	first part of the ECL10 FFA is up. Im taking a break now, any comments are appreciated.
McJarvis 10-22-07, 02:40 PM	Gelatinous cubes shouldn't be sundering anything! :) It's tough to run monsters because you want to make the fight challenging, and not have it roll over the PC. If my lion jumps over a grease spell that it never knew about then that's cheating. If it has slipped on the grease before, that's fine. Animal intelligence or lower should be played as find PC, eat PC. Intelligence 3-7: Find PC, hurt PC. If tactics aren't working, change strategy in 3-4 rounds. Intelligence 8+: Find PC, kill PC. If tactics don't work, change them in 1-2 rounds. Just my two cents. I certainly think it's fine for an ooze to make an attack to try and destroy equipment of a character. That just makes plain thematic sense to me. As far as the lion episode- I really don't remember it. The only thing I would say for such a case is that the lion should have to make a spellcraft check to know what the grease is and be able to make the jump legally during a charge. [remember: long jumps go up half as high as they are in total] Fortunately, things like spellcraft checks allow us to "roleplay" intelligence scores without needing to arbitrarily nerf characters. I really don't approve of a Pitlord saying "well, it would be rational for the monster to do X, but because it has an int of Y it will do Z instead". That's almost as bad as saying "Well, animals don't like pain- so it will run away from the melee monster because it doesn't want to be hurt again".
MindWandererB 10-22-07, 03:26 PM	My take on it is, does the monster's tactical ability have an effect on its CR? And I think the answer is yes. A creature with a 2 Int and one with a 10 Int, given identical stats in every other regard, will present dramatically different threat levels. ... on the other hand, I just tried to find data to back up my point, and failed. The dire bear and hill giant have the same HD, about the same HP, similar AC and attack values, and one has rock throwing compared to the other's improved grab. So I'll let others hash this argument out.
McJarvis 10-22-07, 03:36 PM	So I'll let others hash this argument out. Given that I'm the only person who ever thinks this is a problem, I doubt much hash will be made of the entire affair. Most people are content with taking their semi-auto-wins and moving on.
Eamane 10-22-07, 03:48 PM	Given that I'm the only person who ever thinks this is a problem, I doubt much hash will be made of the entire affair. Most people are content with taking their semi-auto-wins and moving on. Hardly so! There was a decent sized discussion on this not too long ago, ending with Sauro making a proposal of 'base-line tactics' for various intelligence levels. People made noises that it looked fine, but it has not been officially adapted. I personally thought it was a bit on the 'smart' side, but what I really wanted was a consistent rule to point to, in which capacity it serves just fine.
hogarth 10-22-07, 03:51 PM	Given that I'm the only person who ever thinks this is a problem, I doubt much hash will be made of the entire affair. Most people are content with taking their semi-auto-wins and moving on. I also think it's a problem...that can be trivially solved by allowing individual players to opt out of monster fights altogether. That's Not Gonna Happen (tm), though.
waywreth 10-22-07, 03:53 PM	My take on it is, does the monster's tactical ability have an effect on its CR? ... on the other hand, I just tried to find data to back up my point, and failed. The CR system itself isn't too balanced anyway - compare the abilities and combat capabilities of a dragon with anything equal to its CR. I realize that dragons were designed to be the iconic monsters and tough, but it's quite a difference. I think alot of the challenge is situational as well, and defined by the environment - as our changing battlefields demonstrate. Personally I more or less agree with the chart Luni had posted, although I as a DM give monsters with human or near human intelligence the ability to plan, and use their equipement and tactics to the fullest, without trying to metagame.
TelinArtho 10-22-07, 03:58 PM	I've posted the tactics and sheets for Malik and Torel. I'm almost certain I won't be able to get to that fight - so it is officially up for grabs. I have also posted the beginning of the other fight (Team Wadl... vs Felice). The way things are going this week - I wouldn't expect it either. My apologies to everyone on these matters. Real life is kicking me hard (well - a 7 month old is anyway - mostly between the hours of 1am and 5 am - and in the hours he is not kicking me - my other kids are...). I will be taking a temporary break from pitlording so I can focus on my campaign and current quest. If I do get the chance to work on the fights - I will post ahead of time on the matter.
lonewolf 10-22-07, 04:32 PM	I´ve run 2 more rounds of the FFA, and I believe I have exhausted Raskos offensive options. Yaurl doesnt hit anything and needs a natural 20 to do so; Raskos is out of those few spells & abilities that managed to hurt Kervan. I can keep spending Raskos ressources to keep him alive, but at this point I just cant see how he can still win. @Sauro: If you want to surrender at this point I will accept it, otherwise I will continue running, and let you hope for those natural 20ies on Yaurls attacks.
SauroGrenom 10-22-07, 06:07 PM	I´ve run 2 more rounds of the FFA, and I believe I have exhausted Raskos offensive options. Yaurl doesnt hit anything and needs a natural 20 to do so; Raskos is out of those few spells & abilities that managed to hurt Kervan. I can keep spending Raskos ressources to keep him alive, but at this point I just cant see how he can still win. @Sauro: If you want to surrender at this point I will accept it, otherwise I will continue running, and let you hope for those natural 20ies on Yaurls attacks.Yea, you can surrender. I don't see anything that Raskos can do. A surrender before he burn through all his scrolls would be appreciated. Crap. I didn't realize how high his AC could get. Fracking rope trick. There's got to be something I can do about that...
whitebaron 10-22-07, 07:00 PM	Yea, you can surrender. I don't see anything that Raskos can do. A surrender before he burn through all his scrolls would be appreciated. Crap. I didn't realize how high his AC could get. Fracking rope trick. There's got to be something I can do about that... dispel? ;)
Vathelokai 10-22-07, 07:10 PM	Could someone point me to Sauro's monster int. guidelines?
lonewolf 10-22-07, 07:17 PM	dispel? ;) Kervan has a ring of counterspell with dispel magic in it AND a prepared dispel magic that he planned to recast into the ring should Raskos use up the first...
MindWandererB 10-22-07, 07:26 PM	Kervan has a ring of counterspell with dispel magic in it AND a prepared dispel magic that he planned to recast into the ring should Raskos use up the first... Yeah, but the ring doesn't protect against effects that aren't on Kervan himself, like the Rope Trick. If you can find it, you can dispel it--or even go up into it yourself. I haven't figured out a counter for that yet (although Meld Into Stone is a more secure alternative).
lonewolf 10-22-07, 07:39 PM	In case you havent noticed; the fight is up
Luni 10-22-07, 08:02 PM	Given that I'm the only person who ever thinks this is a problem, I doubt much hash will be made of the entire affair. Most people are content with taking their semi-auto-wins and moving on. Two years ago when monster fights were first introduced, I was killing the PC's left and right. I was playing them as too smart, and also adapting their tactics too fast.
hogarth 10-22-07, 08:12 PM	Two years ago when monster fights were first introduced, I was killing the PC's left and right. I was playing them as too smart, and also adapting their tactics too fast. Luckily Telin picked up the slack once you left. ;)
SauroGrenom 10-22-07, 08:14 PM	Yeah, but the ring doesn't protect against effects that aren't on Kervan himself, like the Rope Trick. If you can find it, you can dispel it--or even go up into it yourself. I haven't figured out a counter for that yet (although Meld Into Stone is a more secure alternative).So I guess you have to use See Invisibility to spot the "window" and then dispel it or fly into the hole... I can do that. I wish I had known that earlier. I let 8 rounds of buff time go bye when I could have been up in your face or casting a stinking cloud into your little hidy hole. Edit: I hope I get Kervan again next week... I have a few more tricks up my sleave now that I went up a level into the same place you're at. You've got some just dessert's coming.
MindWandererB 10-22-07, 08:27 PM	I see Dispel Psionics, as well as Touchsight. And me without my Spell Immunity left. Yup, that would make it tough. I wouldn't put any odds on Kervan surviving that. Heck, he came pretty close to dying in the last fight as it was, and that was with me anticipating and countering almost everything you tried. Nolo contendere.
SauroGrenom 10-22-07, 08:50 PM	I see Dispel Psionics, as well as Touchsight. And me without my Spell Immunity left. Yup, that would make it tough. I wouldn't put any odds on Kervan surviving that. Heck, he came pretty close to dying in the last fight as it was, and that was with me anticipating and countering almost everything you tried. Nolo contendere. The ECL11 level is backed with rogues. You cannot survive those guys w/o touchsight. You get three more 6th level spells... ANd an extra 3rd level spell in there as well. With all your spell slots and scrolls, you're not in a bad position to win a rematch. Spells @ 6th level are scary. Blade Barrier, and Banishment...
McJarvis 10-22-07, 09:28 PM	Two years ago when monster fights were first introduced, I was killing the PC's left and right. I was playing them as too smart, and also adapting their tactics too fast. I generally try to play them strictly by the book. 1) Buy equipment- optimize within the rules. 2) Develop general tactics like I would any character. 3) Look at gladiator's sheet 4) Write specific tactics vs that character in particular. This resulted in a few people not liking my pitlording "style" right before I left a month or so ago. [I believe you can see an example of it in one of Lord Lorian's losses]
Macbrea 10-22-07, 10:03 PM	Generally speaking, monster kill characters that are not super optiimised. I run about 50/50 on my kills.
MindWandererB 10-22-07, 10:12 PM	The ECL11 level is backed with rogues. You cannot survive those guys w/o touchsight. You get three more 6th level spells... ANd an extra 3rd level spell in there as well. With all your spell slots and scrolls, you're not in a bad position to win a rematch. Spells @ 6th level are scary. Blade Barrier, and Banishment... Phht. Banishment might take care of Yaurl, but mostly you could just pick me off with Energy Missiles--it's impossible to block all 4 variants w/o spell immunity, globe of invulnerability, or energy adaptation... hmm, or antimagic field. Worth considering....
Macbrea 10-22-07, 11:01 PM	My brain hurts trying to figure this out... what the heck is the adjustment for the fight: Kilor Mintolo vs. The Eternal Dreamless Sleep (Team) + 2 light horses With Team winning. I cannot figure out the rewards. I am lost in this one....
Salrantol 10-22-07, 11:23 PM	Add using the wand of enlarge person right after Vigor in other tactics below.WHY does Kilor waste round 2 doing something she's not supposed to be doing yet???Round 1: Cast enlarge person. Drop wand. Move towards the center.Even though the wand was changed to expeditious retreat, I certainly didn't change whether I was dropping the wand or not. With these two dramatic departures from tactics removed, Kilor should easily reach The Merciful Killer before he casts his enlarge person, which would shift the balance of power in the fight a bit if Kilor hits on her attack.
Macbrea 10-22-07, 11:32 PM	As you were grappled. It meant you had to leave the grapple to go after him.
whitebaron 10-23-07, 02:07 AM	My brain hurts trying to figure this out... what the heck is the adjustment for the fight: Kilor Mintolo vs. The Eternal Dreamless Sleep (Team) + 2 light horses With Team winning. I cannot figure out the rewards. I am lost in this one.... actually, thats easy. kilor gets full % plus, team gets full % minus each. so each of the teamsters gets: 1200 - 1(horse)/2(maxallies)*25%*1200 = 1050 kilor gets: 600+1/2*25%*600 = 675 if only one would have a horse, the 1/2 in the above equations would go to 1/4, since the xp penalty is shared under the teamsters, and kilor would likely only get 1/4th. *hth*
Eamane 10-23-07, 04:57 AM	Verger Stonewall (Ackermanus) vs Helga the Hugger (bestelf) is done and up here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14147524&postcount=1413). I've got the tactics for Wroth vs Snaga so that should be run tomorrow. Grr. I said last week I'd do my fights early. 1/3 is not enough! <resolves to do 2/2 early next time>
Salrantol 10-23-07, 07:24 AM	As you were grappled. It meant you had to leave the grapple to go after him.I was grappled before leaving my starting block? And that's why you changed my round 1 & 2 tactics?? But according to the fight, I didn't get grappled until round 4. And since they have no contingency to abort buffing if I get in there to attack, I should get in unabated to The Merciful Killer, and potentially take him out before he casts enlarge person, which, once Kilor's enlarged, gives her a better shot in the grapple, as well as reducing Snake-Eyes' damage in the grapple.
hogarth 10-23-07, 08:20 AM	I was grappled before leaving my starting block? And that's why you changed my round 1 & 2 tactics?? I have to admit I didn't understand Macbrea's remark either. It's pretty clear that Kilor didn't want to use Enlarge Person right away (after the clarification).
Macbrea 10-23-07, 09:08 AM	Fight has been edited.
Erithmu 10-23-07, 09:27 AM	Ikhain vs Inzin Working on rewards ...
Nurlithion 10-23-07, 09:33 AM	Hey, for some reason I can't enter the 47th page of the Battles of Gladius thread, or any of the posts in it(I tried to google up my fight, but didn't work). I just get a blank page and a "Done" message in that lower IE bar. So if anyone could look up my character Nemion's fight and quote it here (or email it) for me, I'd me much thankful.
Macbrea 10-23-07, 09:35 AM	reduce the number of posts visible to you at one time in your preferences. Currently for some reason it won't display. I had the same problem until I reduced it down to 20 posts per page. Then I could see things.
waywreth 10-23-07, 10:35 AM	Ikhain vs Inzin Working on rewards ... Inzin doesn't have a rod of extend, but it's a moot point considering the summon did nothing worth mentioning anyway. Also, mounted combat can only be used to negate one hit per round, but since Grawl II was at full hp, the one hit on him wouldn't have any consequences. On another note - Protection from Evil stops Summon Nature's Ally? I was unaware of that. Good to know. Thanks for the run 'Rith.
templer10 10-23-07, 10:48 AM	Inzin doesn't have a rod of extend, but it's a moot point considering the summon did nothing worth mentioning anyway. Also, mounted combat can only be used to negate one hit per round, but since Grawl II was at full hp, the one hit on him wouldn't have any consequences. On another note - Protection from Evil stops Summon Nature's Ally? I was unaware of that. Good to know. Thanks for the run 'Rith. It stops the nutral/evil summons from SNA3 and up you have good summons also.
whitebaron 10-23-07, 10:58 AM	On another note - Protection from Evil stops Summon Nature's Ally? I was unaware of that. Good to know. it doesn't. it stops all nongood summoned creatures from entering. get a good creature, and you get through P.f.E. to bad that SNA has the first of those creatures on list 3. protection from chaos, RAI should be even better than pfe. (no lawful creature on all sna lists) to bad the protection thing has a bad wording and therefore RAW, only pfe works against neutral summons. i think we would need a houserule concerning this, i pointed this out already somewhere else on this board. btw: i find this odd, that the spell name is protection from evil, while it should be "protection against nongood" - maybe just the wording of pfe is entirely wrong, and they meant to work it on evil creatures only. (and no protection could save you from neutral monsters then... which is kinda stupid, too.)
TelinArtho 10-23-07, 11:03 AM	For the record - this is something I brought up way back when I first introduced Kraegin to the arena (hmmm - 2005...). Essentially the way it worked out is that it has never been errataed and although it means that PfE is much more powerful than the others - that no one wanted to make a house rule to "fix" it or the others. Frankly I'm inclined to leave it alone as well - just on the virtue of having fewer house rulings.
Rauul 10-23-07, 11:08 AM	Ackbar Stormsword vs. Kai Engel is here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14106801&postcount=1394)...
Macbrea 10-23-07, 11:22 AM	The general concensous has always been to not house rule stuff and play things as RAW not RAI. We can see that there is an error of sorts but don't want to outright say, "This should have been how they wrote it." It's a very conservative point of view.
McJarvis 10-23-07, 11:24 AM	The general concensous has always been to not house rule stuff and play things as RAW not RAI. We can see that there is an error of sorts but don't want to outright say, "This should have been how they wrote it." It's a very conservative point of view. I actually prefer this point of view since it is less complicated. I really wish we hadn't started with dispel psionics... And if we're going to be that heavy handed, I'd love to see rope trick banned from the arena too.
Erithmu 10-23-07, 01:26 PM	Inzin doesn't have a rod of extend, but it's a moot point considering the summon did nothing worth mentioning anyway. Also, mounted combat can only be used to negate one hit per round, but since Grawl II was at full hp, the one hit on him wouldn't have any consequences. On another note - Protection from Evil stops Summon Nature's Ally? I was unaware of that. Good to know. Thanks for the run 'Rith. Ahhh I read 'expend' as 'extend' ... All attacks were against Inzin ... not Grawl .. all the ride checks were for cover (DC 15)
lonewolf 10-23-07, 01:58 PM	Shugho-zact vs. Nemion is up
templer10 10-23-07, 02:03 PM	Gwerdan "Twofist" Grummler (whitebaron) vs. Petyr Darry (Callix) : templer10 [Plains] is up (Gwerdan "Twofist" Grummler (whitebaron) vs. Petyr Darry (Callix) : templer10 [Plains]) - deflect arrows FTW.
Rauul 10-23-07, 02:33 PM	So you guys activating the ecl 6 teams this week?
Salrantol 10-23-07, 02:38 PM	provoke AoOs from (non-enlarged) Snake-Eyes if necessary to get to himI'm not sure why it was deemed necessary, since it took me all of 15 seconds to plot out a movement that ended adjacent to TMK without provoking an attack of opportunity.http://www.hwx.it/coco/coco.php;v=1;map=cavern;a=Name,M,13,10,2 1,16,22,27,24,27;b=Name,M,25,25;c=Name,L ,26,27And, as I mentioned before, they have no contingency for me getting there before they're buffed, so I should get an attack off on TMK before Snake-Eyes attacks me.
lonewolf 10-23-07, 02:38 PM	well, our Team is going into week4 of their fight this week, so I dont think so :(
hogarth 10-23-07, 02:59 PM	And, as I mentioned before, they have no contingency for me getting there before they're buffed, so I should get an attack off on TMK before Snake-Eyes attacks me. Well, I know that Snake-Eyes has 6 Int, but I think she can figure out that she doesn't need to manifest Skate to catch someone who's standing right next to her. ;) So I think that after Kilor's double move she'll just end up getting grappled again; I tried to make it clear that grappling Kilor is the #1 priority (so she can skip the Skate), but it's the DM's call, I guess. EDIT: Here's the relevant part of the tactics: Snake-Eyes will try to close with Kilor as quickly as possible; it's likely that Kilor will have a speed advantage, but it should be possible to get her within guisarme reach (running if necessary). If Kilor provokes an AoO with the guisarme (or similarly if a guisarme attack is possible but not a grapple attempt), Snake-Eyes will use it to sunder a wand (if she has a wand in hand) or trip her (if not). But the goal is to begin grappling as soon as possible.
Nurlithion 10-23-07, 03:33 PM	Lonewolf, in my fight here, in round 5, I hit my touch attack, because Arven is providing a flanking bonus. Could be relevant because with some luck I MIGHT kill her before the Spiritual Weapons eviscerate me. That and if I hit, I would even stop the second weapon from coming into existence. Also, thanks for pointing out that you can't ready a charge. I had always been under the impression that you could ready at least a partial charge.
Eamane 10-23-07, 03:36 PM	Lonewolf, in my fight here, in round 5, I hit my touch attack, because Arven is providing a flanking bonus. Could be relevant because with some luck I MIGHT kill her before the Spiritual Weapons eviscerate me. That and if I hit, I would even stop the second weapon from coming into existence. Also, thanks for pointing out that you can't ready a charge. I had always been under the impression that you could ready at least a partial charge. Your familiar is too small to threaten adjacent squares with it's natural attack and thus, cannot provide a flanking bonus. It has to move into my square each time it wants to attack; which normally is a bad thing, but I didn't have a melee weapon on hand; this time ;)
Nurlithion 10-23-07, 03:40 PM	Oh, bugger. You're winning 2 to 1 then :P
lonewolf 10-23-07, 03:51 PM	@Nurlithion: what Eamane said, plus there is no more partial charge in 3.5. You can still charge as a standart action, but only if youre restricted to one standart action on your turn because of a slow spell or similar.
Nurlithion 10-23-07, 03:53 PM	Ok, thanks for running the fight then.
whitebaron 10-23-07, 04:27 PM	@t10: thnx for the fight. autowins are kinda fun - not for the stats, but it proves that if you specialise to much, that some chars just beat you even if they write bad tactics. petyr wasn't killed by gwerdan at any rate. he was killed by his (currently) missing backup tactics for opponents immune to ranged. still, ranged fighting is seeing much favor in this arena, so deflect arrows is really nice to have. and its still 2 ecls to 2 attacks/round unless someone has a 2/round arrow feat. (rapid/manyshot) @callix: bad luck on the draw, and good call on the resign - leaves you with more pp. btw: good call on the dorje of vigor. that's what i would have wanted to do, even if it was not specified.
templer10 10-23-07, 04:28 PM	Reginald vs Antalya is done (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14150144&postcount=1414).
whitebaron 10-23-07, 04:49 PM	@eternal dreamless sleep vs. kilor - fight: the rewards for the team are still off. as they are ecl 4, their xp to gold multiplier is still 1.0. rewards for the teamsters are always calculated on their ecl, not the league they are playing in together. @our team: to bad, we'd liked to activate it this week. rauul, if you want to fight our team, you need to pickup telins fight, and finish it *g*
Callix 10-23-07, 04:49 PM	Gwerdan "Twofist" Grummler (whitebaron) vs. Petyr Darry (Callix) : templer10 [Plains] is up (Gwerdan "Twofist" Grummler (whitebaron) vs. Petyr Darry (Callix) : templer10 [Plains]) - deflect arrows FTW. Err... where's the fight? That links to a blank page for me, and I can't find it in the Battles thread. Post tags would be appreciated. @callix: bad luck on the draw, and good call on the resign - leaves you with more pp. btw: good call on the dorje of vigor. that's what i would have wanted to do, even if it was not specified. I've seen enough of your fights to know that the Dorje of Vigor never stays away for long.
whitebaron 10-23-07, 04:53 PM	Err... where's the fight? That links to a blank page for me, and I can't find it in the Battles thread. Post tags would be appreciated. I've seen enough of your fights to know that the Dorje of Vigor never stays away for long. actually, i was planning on inplanting the next dorje of vigor (the first one might be used up in 5 fights *g*) into gwerdans left hand, and go to one-handed grappling. ;) btw: it's here
Eamane 10-23-07, 07:31 PM	Grr! I was in the last few rounds of Snaga vs Wroth and the dice roller stops working on me -_-. I'll give it about 45 minutes, then switch to another service. Either way, the fight should be up within and hour and a half, max.
Taureus_Drakken 10-23-07, 07:47 PM	Ackbar Stormsword vs. Kai Engel is here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14106801&postcount=1394)... Thanks for the run!! I forgot about the possibility of having my bow sundered, but it looks like I made out better than could have been expected. ¬Taureus¬
hogarth 10-23-07, 09:24 PM	Err... where's the fight? That links to a blank page for me, and I can't find it in the Battles thread. Post tags would be appreciated. Try going to your "Options" and setting the number of posts to 20 per page. That should help the page load. This is a very common problem.
Eamane 10-23-07, 09:44 PM	Wroth vs Snaga is up here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14154022&postcount=1415). More than a tad late :weep: Or rather it would be, but it's taking me forever to post it. Grr. <counts the minutes until the 'reply to thread' turns into an actual post>
Hirumajoe 10-24-07, 03:23 AM	Ackbar Stormsword vs. Kai Engel is here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14106801&postcount=1394)... Thanks for the run. I'd like to point out, that you seem to have forgotten the +4 bonus for Improved Trip or the +4 bonus for being large in the opposed trips. I believe Kai's Trip bonus while Enlarged should be +4 (Str) +4 (Imp. Trip) +4 (Large) = +12. You seem to have used +7 in the rolls. Which may make a difference in the fight. If you don't have time to fix it in time for pairings, don't worry about it. Thanks, Hirumajoe Edit: Also, it seems you may be missing the free followup attacks that are due to the Improved Trip feat. Lastly, Ackbar's AC is 23 instead of 25. You seem to have double counted the shield of faith bonus.
Eluria 10-24-07, 06:22 AM	Wroth vs Snaga is up here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14154022&postcount=1415). More than a tad late :weep: Or rather it would be, but it's taking me forever to post it. Grr. <counts the minutes until the 'reply to thread' turns into an actual post> Thank you for the run Eamane; I have no problems with the fight. I appreciate the pitlording!
Rauul 10-24-07, 11:25 AM	Thanks for the run. I'd like to point out, that you seem to have forgotten the +4 bonus for Improved Trip or the +4 bonus for being large in the opposed trips. I believe Kai's Trip bonus while Enlarged should be +4 (Str) +4 (Imp. Trip) +4 (Large) = +12. You seem to have used +7 in the rolls. Which may make a difference in the fight. If you don't have time to fix it in time for pairings, don't worry about it. Thanks, Hirumajoe Edit: Also, it seems you may be missing the free followup attacks that are due to the Improved Trip feat. Lastly, Ackbar's AC is 23 instead of 25. You seem to have double counted the shield of faith bonus. editing it now.. gawd i hate trippers.. LOL EDITED => Nothing Changed other than it was alot closer than before.. if you hadn't failed the Opp rolls by more than 5 (since i did forget the +4) in rd 10-11, you could of won.. dice beat yea... sorry
TelinArtho 10-24-07, 11:42 AM	Okay - looks like I have a few minutes to work on the team vs Felice fight... hopefully it will end up as more than a "few" minutes - but no guarantees.
whitebaron 10-24-07, 12:16 PM	don't stress yourself. we won't activate it this week, even if you got the fight done till deadline. so no pressure from us here, and i think salrantol can dig one more week as well. but only one more week! *hideous-laughter*
TelinArtho 10-24-07, 12:29 PM	I'm not stressing myself, but I don't like to leave things hanging on like this for a few weeks. The worst part about it is I think much of the delay could have been avoided with either a) more proactive tactics by both parties (instead of both hanging back until the very last second) or b) removing the light condition of the fight (in which case the element that both parties are trying to take full advantage of goes away) or c) removing the possibility of this kind of light condition on this big and cluttered of a map... (though I think the forest is one of the worst maps to pitlord on anyway...)
templer10 10-24-07, 12:49 PM	I'm not stressing myself, but I don't like to leave things hanging on like this for a few weeks. The worst part about it is I think much of the delay could have been avoided with either a) more proactive tactics by both parties (instead of both hanging back until the very last second) or b) removing the light condition of the fight (in which case the element that both parties are trying to take full advantage of goes away) or c) removing the possibility of this kind of light condition on this big and cluttered of a map... (though I think the forest is one of the worst maps to pitlord on anyway...) MEh- I always felt that delibertly Delying - especially in big maps and especialy with light conditions limiting the ability of sides to engage each other doesnt enrourage anything but annoying the pitlord - And in the end it usually doesnt change much in the end result.
Rauul 10-24-07, 01:18 PM	I'm not stressing myself, but I don't like to leave things hanging on like this for a few weeks. The worst part about it is I think much of the delay could have been avoided with either a) more proactive tactics by both parties (instead of both hanging back until the very last second) or b) removing the light condition of the fight (in which case the element that both parties are trying to take full advantage of goes away) or c) removing the possibility of this kind of light condition on this big and cluttered of a map... (though I think the forest is one of the worst maps to pitlord on anyway...) 2 words.... delay penalty...
whitebaron 10-24-07, 01:47 PM	about our tactics: it's not exactly delaying, the one delaying is the psion. we are quite actively searching, just that we need have a three step search pattern - to maybe take him before he sees us clearly. touchsight (and darkvision, but there aren't to many players here with that) is really nasty concerning these light conditions - he can always spot us with our light, while he is safely out of risk. but ok - lesson learnt, next investment for the team: some bullseye lanterns. 240ft sight with low-light vision, and you can always buy some more and point them in more directions....
TelinArtho 10-24-07, 02:25 PM	2 words.... delay penalty... I try not to impose delay penalties when the map is really the mitigating factor of the delay. In the team's case, they are progressing through the map in a slow, deliberate pattern. If they were moving faster, Felice gains sight of them sooner and is able to proceed with her tactics; likewise, Felice is set up in a relatively open space (open as in she has a large section to be visible from), so not really delaying except by not moving. Frankly though, even had I used the delay penalty - it doesn't change the fact that the team's tactics are so slow and deliberate. Just like it wouldn't change that Felice wants to stay in a relatively defensive area. Anyway - things got pushed up pretty quickly in round 21, so hopefully I can finish this up today...
TelinArtho 10-24-07, 03:19 PM	Felice tu'Ria (Salrantol) vs Team Wiener Wadlbeisser (whitebaron, mucki, lonewolf) is up. Okay - now that I've given this some serious time, I want to express some concerns about future Pitch Black fights. If both parties want to stay outside of the radius of their respective lights, the fight has little ability to move forward. Something has to give in order for this to work. Here, some of the people had a much better range to work with and were more hindered by the terrain than by the lighting conditions. How to handle this in the delay penalty is questionable. You can't just "light up" their location - because they can relocate after a quick engagement and just throw it back to the previous state. Obviously if both parties state to stay put and not engage each other it gets into a similar situation. I urge players to try to actively engage your opponent. Stealth builds need not rely upon the other coming into sight/sense range - there are plenty of ways to engage without it. Some are riskier than others - but staying put only works when your opponent is actively seeking you out. For non-stealth builds - why the heck are you waiting around anyway. In Felice's case, she has better ability to sense without light - so she could have just as easily wandered around without a light source than set up the complicated situation she did. Ultimately, relying on the everburning torch to reveal her opponents led to her downfall. With it - she had to rely on her opponents coming into that light range or using their own light. Anyway - if there's any comments - please do remember to remain calm and level-headed. This fight took a lot of time because I was concidering how to handle things as fairly as I could and while still giving respect to the new lighting condition.
whitebaron 10-24-07, 04:08 PM	well, we naturally have no objections. i think you handled it quite clearly and comprehensible. the only issue i have is the delay penalty. i wouldn't allow the characters in a fight i pitlord to wait for so long. delays here and there, are ok, but basically saying "wait till delay penalty would kick in" then move some and then "wait again till delay penalty would kick in" is the best method to annoy any pitlord. in such a case, i'd personally have the gladiator move, and actively search - he can hide if he spots, he can move slowly and hide while moving, all no problem - but he has to do something to engage his opponent. in the real colliseum, they would have brought in the lions behind you, just to remember you of your real purpose in the arena - fighting. :) i'm sorry our tactics called for the stone-throwing, but basically we had to do this, as else we would have been sitting ducks, waiting for the ballista to shoot at us.
Macbrea 10-24-07, 04:22 PM	That is a common tactic. Frequently, a character can end up in a situation where their only choice is "Fire a shot every 10 round until he stops levitating." This is because of something like the levitating wizard with deflect arrow. Leavies you with no real ability to get to hiim.
TelinArtho 10-24-07, 04:34 PM	well, we naturally have no objections. i think you handled it quite clearly and comprehensible. the only issue i have is the delay penalty. i wouldn't allow the characters in a fight i pitlord to wait for so long. delays here and there, are ok, but basically saying "wait till delay penalty would kick in" then move some and then "wait again till delay penalty would kick in" is the best method to annoy any pitlord. in such a case, i'd personally have the gladiator move, and actively search - he can hide if he spots, he can move slowly and hide while moving, all no problem - but he has to do something to engage his opponent. in the real colliseum, they would have brought in the lions behind you, just to remember you of your real purpose in the arena - fighting. :) i'm sorry our tactics called for the stone-throwing, but basically we had to do this, as else we would have been sitting ducks, waiting for the ballista to shoot at us. Well - I usually don't have much issue with using the delay penalty. For this fight, I wanted to see how the fight would turn out without the delay penalty (because in reality it wouldn't have been an issue if there was no lighting condition). Since the Delay Penalty is the purview of the pitlord - it was within reason to ignore it for the time being. That said - there are many tactics written (well before the lighting conditions existed) that were basically "sit and wait for 10 rounds. If I am about to be hit by the delay penalty, then gather up and move on to another spot to look out for the opponent." I have stated my problem with these tactics before, especially with people in the city map. These individuals climb up onto the balcony, because it is a defensible position and wait for someone to come into view. The problem here, like the issue with the forest in the dark, is that it has so little area to view into - that the delay penalty is not a question - it will happen. In your case for instance, the waiting of the round between the throwing and the moving to and picking up of the rock is completely useless. First - assuming the thrower hits the target - Khamul (and the others in your team) are completely out of sight of Felice (because of her limited ability to see in the dark). If the throwing does enable you to see her - her tactics (undoubtably) are to move out of the range of the light. She sure as heck isn't going to move towards it. What it does do is give her the time to ready an attack into that area if she wasn't already readied. So, I have said it before and I say it here again - I don't have a problem with Stealth builds or sneaks. I do have a problem with delayers (of which some are certainly stealth builds or sneaks - but not all of them).
whitebaron 10-24-07, 04:46 PM	to be honest: i didn't understand that additional delay either. but well, i think it should not be much of a time issue when pitlording, if all 4 players just wait for one round. :)
Rauul 10-25-07, 02:19 AM	So, I have said it before and I say it here again - I don't have a problem with Stealth builds or sneaks. I do have a problem with delayers (of which some are certainly stealth builds or sneaks - but not all of them). think my half-orc has been hit with his share of Delay penalty's and his main tactic is to Bellow his location... make them come to him... and he gets hit with a delay penalty?? no hiding.. no being silent.. (been thinking about getting him a jester cap with 100 bells, so people will know where he is)
Hirumajoe 10-25-07, 02:19 AM	editing it now.. gawd i hate trippers.. LOL EDITED => Nothing Changed other than it was alot closer than before.. if you hadn't failed the Opp rolls by more than 5 (since i did forget the +4) in rd 10-11, you could of won.. dice beat yea... sorry Thanks very much for the corrections. Its appreciated. :) And next time, I'll try to use more intelligent tactics - I really should have tripped then sundered rather than tripped then attacked...
lonewolf 10-25-07, 04:57 AM	think my half-orc has been hit with his share of Delay penalty's and his main tactic is to Bellow his location... make them come to him... and he gets hit with a delay penalty?? no hiding.. no being silent.. (been thinking about getting him a jester cap with 100 bells, so people will know where he is) Shouting out your location does not automatically let you ignore the delay rule. If both characters just stay stationary and shout their location, no fight would ever happen unless they are forced to move.
mucki 10-26-07, 07:25 AM	@telin: Sorry for the late reply, but i just realized when editing my char, that the result of the team fight says i used 3 arrows. I guess this is a typo ?
TelinArtho 10-26-07, 10:23 AM	@telin: Sorry for the late reply, but i just realized when editing my char, that the result of the team fight says i used 3 arrows. I guess this is a typo ? Fixed - yup. I forgot to edit that part.