Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TelinArtho 10-03-07, 12:30 PM	Fights of the Week: October 3rd Please don't edit the sheet after the deadline or you will lose the match. Rules of Gladius All that you need to know is written in the Rules of Gladius. It could be useful also to give a look to the Court Decisions Part 1 and Part 2. Please do not make fake accounts or insult the Elders. Pairings GM MindwandererB will pair the active Characters of Gladius after the deadline. Link to pairings. Make sure that your character is not in prison. Pitlording You should use the CoCo Dice Roller (http://www.hwx.it/wizards.com) for the fight. If you need it, there is a nice template ready to use that will help. You could find the Battle Map Tag Generator (http://www.hwx.it/coco) for dynamic Maps very useful. You must post a link to your fight in this thread when it is complete. If you need a quick and dirty tool to calculate distances between two points (in 2-D or 3-D), this tool used to suffice until it got taken down without giving us proper notification... the Nerve Another useful link is the Quick Access tables for XP and Gold. If a fight needs to be rerun, the Pitlord has to inform the Pitlords account. He cannot react to requests from Players because the other player and the pitlord might disagree. He has no time to read the fight and the discussion. Please keep that in mind. PMs from players with rerun requests won't have an impact. Recent News and Developments Currently up for discussion in the courtroom are the rules regarding Dispel Psionics and Metamorphic transfer Currently up for discussion in the council are the rules regarding Crafting time. Please stop by the Community/Guild Discussion thread to provide some input on the two side games we are working on. Comments & Concerns Post any comments or concerns for this weeks fights in this thread. Be kind and courteous to your fellow posters, and don't feed the pitlords. Please remember that they do hard work and consume a lot of time to let you play. Above all, have FUN! If you have questions or comments on any of the changes, please make your posts be heard in the Council of Gladius!
MindWandererB 10-03-07, 05:33 PM	Pairings are done. Light week, actually. Credits: Callix F2 Eamane F3 A-1 Erithmu F1 C3 lonewolf F1 A-1 Macbrea F1 Rauul F1 TelinArtho F3 C3 A1 A-1 templer10 F4 A-1 Vathelokai F2 Q2 whitebaron F2 A-1 SauroGrenom A1 The Dread Dormammu Q-1 Key: F=Fight, Q=Quest, C=Campaign, A=Admin or Active Characters
Erithmu 10-03-07, 05:37 PM	I think you forgot the ECL 13 bracket MWB ...
whitebaron 10-03-07, 05:48 PM	and i've got 3 active characters... => A-1
MindWandererB 10-03-07, 05:49 PM	Whoops, so I did. And the program doesn't pick up on members of parties. Fixed.
TelinArtho 10-03-07, 05:49 PM	@templer10 - monster info for Longshot has been rolled.
waywreth 10-03-07, 05:54 PM	Poor templar10... Slade Tungsten (Sjiggie) vs. Inzin Dar'ath (waywreth) : templer10 [Plains]. Huge map, we got a half-giant with no lightsource, and a druid who's bat only has a 40' blindsense. This might take awhile... "Marco" "Polo" "Marco"...
templer10 10-03-07, 05:59 PM	Poor templar10... Slade Tungsten (Sjiggie) vs. Inzin Dar'ath (waywreth) : templer10 [Plains]. Huge map, we got a half-giant with no lightsource, and a druid who's bat only has a 40' blindsense. This might take awhile... "Marco" "Polo" "Marco"... Sigh - indeed - and Longshot fighting 3 vampires in the sewer and in the dark - that's just....
whitebaron 10-03-07, 06:06 PM	Sigh - indeed - and Longshot fighting 3 vampires in the sewer and in the dark - that's just.... life's unfair. and i'm really glad verren is not the attacker, else he'd be dead before the first round. ;) @my fighters(vath, eamane, sjiggie, lonewolf): if you want your tactics read+checked, be sure to submit them before friday 1pm gmt, as i will be away most of fridays afternoon/ evening.
Salrantol 10-03-07, 06:19 PM	Speaking of unfair, does the team want to surrender to the kineticist with Touchsight?
lonewolf 10-03-07, 06:23 PM	nah Maybe Falko gets a lucky crit or something. A victory is pretty unlikely, but were not gonna go out without a bang.
Rauul 10-03-07, 06:44 PM	let me guess... Lighting effects Miniquests also... Why has there been so long between fights when you can't prebuff NPC cast spells between fights?
lonewolf 10-03-07, 06:45 PM	@Telin: In case you missed it: You were assigned Samuels Monster fight late, and I am waiting for the monster Info. ty
whitebaron 10-03-07, 06:46 PM	Speaking of unfair, does the team want to surrender to the kineticist with Touchsight? you mean, the kineticist with a lvl 3 power that emulates a lvl 2,3,4,5 wizards spells, all at once? nah... :)
Rauul 10-03-07, 06:48 PM	you mean, the kineticist with a lvl 3 power that emulates a lvl 2,3,4,5 wizards spells, all at once? nah... :) yea the broken power... Weeeee the power that totally destroys any Rogue build.. negates the need for any vision.. and is augmentable..
TelinArtho 10-03-07, 09:23 PM	@Telin: In case you missed it: You were assigned Samuels Monster fight late, and I am waiting for the monster Info. ty I had to leave before it came up - but it is done now... lots of Huge-size creatures on the ECL13 list. I was kind of looking forward to the Invisible Stalker rogue - but without equipment - it has no means to attack you at all...
Eluria 10-03-07, 09:26 PM	@Eamane: tactics sent; good luck!
Vathelokai 10-03-07, 09:48 PM	Monster info for lord Lorian: Huge fire elemental. Have fun. Will post in the fight thread shortly. EDIT: And HERE they are.
Vathelokai 10-04-07, 12:29 AM	@whitebaron and Eamane: tactics and burglary info for Zodiac sent.
Vathelokai 10-04-07, 01:15 AM	Can anyone tell me what kind of items a fire elemental can have?
Rauul 10-04-07, 02:43 AM	Can anyone tell me what kind of items a fire elemental can have? anything made of none flameable material.. (i wouldn't suggest scrolls)
lonewolf 10-04-07, 03:03 AM	Tactic for Darian and Samuel are sent. Tactic for the party will be sent by whitebaron.
hogarth 10-04-07, 06:31 AM	Can anyone tell me what kind of items a fire elemental can have? Elementals have no treasure.
Callix 10-04-07, 06:34 AM	@Eamane, Templer10: Tactics for Ralein and Rennae sent. Ralein's at a bit of a disadvantage, but stands a chance. Rennae's in a FFA so big anything could happen, but I'm not that hopeful. Tough luck on the fight draw, Templer. That one's going to be nasty. @All my players: Sunday night onwards here (Sunday morning USA time) is going to be messy; my parents come home after a month overseas, so I'd rather not be running fights then. Prompt tactics would be appreciated, and result in a prompt fight. Macbrea, thanks for sending yours already.
templer10 10-04-07, 08:11 AM	Can anyone tell me what kind of items a fire elemental can have? fire elementals has NO gear in the Treasure entry so they get no Gear for a monster fight.
Callix 10-04-07, 08:59 AM	T10, last week you ran a fight between Verger Stonewall and Syean'delus. It seems that Sylean has been awarded his "win" gp/xp, even though he lost. I just noticed because I'm running both their fights (neither of which should be as mind-numbingly dull (their builds, not your writing) as their battle, although Alacrity and Verger could be close). If there was some official decision, feel free to ignore me. Otherwise, Sylean's rewards should be 225 xp/gp.
templer10 10-04-07, 09:22 AM	T10, last week you ran a fight between Verger Stonewall and Syean'delus. It seems that Sylean has been awarded his "win" gp/xp, even though he lost. I just noticed because I'm running both their fights (neither of which should be as mind-numbingly dull (their builds, not your writing) as their battle, although Alacrity and Verger could be close). If there was some official decision, feel free to ignore me. Otherwise, Sylean's rewards should be 225 xp/gp. Fixed - after 110 rounds of most boring fight ever you know...
whitebaron 10-04-07, 10:00 AM	Fixed - after 110 rounds of most boring fight ever you know... i'll try to top that. :) @eamane: tactics for gwerdan sent @eamane: tactics (?:confused:?) for verren sent. @eamane: your inbox is full. :) i have a clarification for verren's tactics to send (already...) if i can't get it to you via pm, here it is: change inertial armor to mage armor, as i don't have as much pp left as i thought. ;)
Abyssal Stalker 10-04-07, 10:13 AM	Yea right, once I get back to fighting at the Arena, I get to participate in a FFA in the forest under pitch-black conditions... Try to figure tactics for that.
hogarth 10-04-07, 10:16 AM	Fixed - after 110 rounds of most boring fight ever you know... You think 110 rounds is the most long and boring fight ever? Noko vs. Sunstroke, pt. 1 Noko vs. Sunstroke, pt. 2 Noko vs. Sunstroke, pt. 3 Which will run out first -- Noko's arrows or Sunstroke's wand of CLW? I won't spoil the ending for you.
TelinArtho 10-04-07, 10:16 AM	Yea right, once I get back to fighting at the Arena, I get to participate in a FFA in the forest under pitch-black conditions... Try to figure tactics for that. Well - pitch-black and other lighting conditions only apply for ECL5+ - so that doesn't apply for the ECL4 FFA. And with that said - @templer10 - tactics for Darrgon have been sent.
Sjiggie 10-04-07, 10:17 AM	Yea right, once I get back to fighting at the Arena, I get to participate in a FFA in the forest under pitch-black conditions... Try to figure tactics for that. Ikhain is ECL4 so the lightning condition doesn't apply for him ;) Makes it a little easier for you Edit: Ninja'd by Telin
waywreth 10-04-07, 10:27 AM	Ikhain is ECL4 so the lightning condition doesn't apply for him ;) Makes it a little easier for you Edit: Ninja'd by Telin Does for Slade though... and in related news, @templar10 - Tactics for Inzin sent via PM.
hogarth 10-04-07, 12:11 PM	Tactics sent for Picsou the weak vs. Strongjaw the mighty. Oops..I forgot Picsou's Assassinate package, so I need to think about this a little more.
templer10 10-04-07, 12:59 PM	Telin - tactics for longshot vs overtempleted annis hags sent (+10 LA anyone?)
Abyssal Stalker 10-04-07, 01:33 PM	Ikhain is ECL4 so the lightning condition doesn't apply for him ;) Makes it a little easier for you Edit: Ninja'd by Telin Ah, good point. I'm a bit rusty, thanks for pointing out!
TelinArtho 10-04-07, 01:37 PM	Telin - tactics for longshot vs overtempleted annis hags sent (+10 LA anyone?) Well - the fiendish template really adds nothing to it though - but still increases the CR... (Smite Good, Resist Fire 5 are the only gains - Resist Cold 5 is covered with the Vampire template, the DR is covered with the Vampire template and the SR is worse than the base creature. Since your character is not good-aligned - the Resist Fire 5 is the only real gain...
templer10 10-04-07, 01:47 PM	Well - the fiendish template really adds nothing to it though - but still increases the CR... (Smite Good, Resist Fire 5 are the only gains - Resist Cold 5 is covered with the Vampire template, the DR is covered with the Vampire template and the SR is worse than the base creature. Since your character is not good-aligned - the Resist Fire 5 is the only real gain... Wasnt really complaining about the fiendish lol - wasnt evern really complaining about the vampire - just expressing my general feelings about the way we do Level adjusted monsters here - dont take it 2 seriously - I REALLY hope for some serious luck here iam Dead simply becuase of the number iof energy drains just one of these things can do in a round...
templer10 10-04-07, 08:52 PM	VAth - tactics for Lord Lorian vs soon to be very unattractive Eldar fire elemental - are out - And i thank the dice gods that wasnt an EArth elemental (shudder).
hogarth 10-04-07, 10:30 PM	@Vathelokai: slightly revised tactics for Picsou the feeble sent @Erithmu: tactics for Treetall Oakleg sent
Erithmu 10-04-07, 10:54 PM	@MacB, Hogarth, Others: Got my tactics for my fight all squared away, I'll be gone most of the the weekend w/ unknown Inet. I should be back posting on Sunday or late Sat if I have energy.
Salrantol 10-04-07, 11:15 PM	@TelinArtho: Internet was down all day today until just now. May be slightly late with tactics, but "hide where there's no light and use dorjes + Touchsight to kill them all" might not take me too long. Salrantol :w:
Vathelokai 10-05-07, 12:20 AM	Lord Lorian vs Elder Fire Elemental in a very cramped cavern is here.
mucki 10-05-07, 09:00 AM	@Telin: Tactics sent.
whitebaron 10-05-07, 09:37 AM	Lord Lorian vs Elder Fire Elemental in a very cramped cavern is here. pitlords are allowed to reroll the monster if they think its too much handicapped. maybe this would have been such a time. - but on the other hand, i can understand - i somehow looked at my monster fights around sunday, far to late to check on such things...
hogarth 10-05-07, 09:55 AM	pitlords are allowed to reroll the monster if they think its too much handicapped. maybe this would have been such a time. - but on the other hand, i can understand - i somehow looked at my monster fights around sunday, far to late to check on such things... I'm strongly against rerolling unless absolutely necessary, like a dumb animal vs. a flying character with plenty of ranged ammo on the Plains map. In this case, it's possible (if unlikely) that the elemental could have messed him up before being Ego Whipped into oblivion.
templer10 10-05-07, 10:41 AM	I'm strongly against rerolling unless absolutely necessary, like a dumb animal vs. a flying character with plenty of ranged ammo on the Plains map. In this case, it's possible (if unlikely) that the elemental could have messed him up before being Ego Whipped into oblivion. I also could have tried (if i was stupid...) to Knock of his HP which would have taken a bit longer and give him more time to kill me. monsters should be rerolled only when they are 100% autoloss. p.s IMHO they should be rerolled if they are 100% autoloss to the player but that's just me.\ and on that note - Lonewolf - Tactics for Elrick vs Kervan or otherwise known as.... DRUIDZILLA VS CLERCIZILLA ROUND 2! are out. p.s. - i think MWB learned some lessons from last time - he bought stuff vs all my best tricks lol.
Abyssal Stalker 10-05-07, 10:41 AM	Wasnt really complaining about the fiendish lol - wasnt evern really complaining about the vampire - just expressing my general feelings about the way we do Level adjusted monsters here - dont take it 2 seriously - I REALLY hope for some serious luck here iam Dead simply becuase of the number iof energy drains just one of these things can do in a round... Without looking at the monster more specifically - vampires can energy drain only once per round.
templer10 10-05-07, 10:48 AM	Without looking at the monster more specifically - vampires can energy drain only once per round. Really? because the "energy drain" description say: "Living creatures hit by a vampire’s slam attack (or any other natural weapon the vampire might possess) gain two negative levels. For each negative level bestowed, the vampire gains 5 temporary hit points. A vampire can use its energy drain ability once per round." and a annis hag vampire has more then just a slam attack.
hogarth 10-05-07, 10:56 AM	Really? because the "energy drain" description say: "Living creatures hit by a vampire’s slam attack (or any other natural weapon the vampire might possess) gain two negative levels. For each negative level bestowed, the vampire gains 5 temporary hit points. A vampire can use its energy drain ability once per round. " and a annis hag vampire has more then just a slam attack. Read that last sentence you quoted carefully. :)
TelinArtho 10-05-07, 10:57 AM	Right - but read what you quoted once more templer10: A vampire can use its energy drain ability once per round
templer10 10-05-07, 10:59 AM	Right - but read what you quoted once more templer10: ME stupid... so question is - does it need to decide ahead of time if it's energy draining or simply first attack that hit?
Abyssal Stalker 10-05-07, 11:08 AM	ME stupid... so question is - does it need to decide ahead of time if it's energy draining or simply first attack that hit? No, energy drain is an "active" ability. --> first attack that hits. Tactics have been posted.
Rauul 10-05-07, 12:48 PM	With the Annis Hag Vampire... In Pitch black.. you have alot more to worry about that an Energy drain... Treasure: Double standard. I would be more worried of it using it's improved grab to grapple you.. pin you rend you and take con with blood drain.. and then rack you again.... Oh and first attack drains 2 levels.. can we say ouch?
TelinArtho 10-05-07, 01:05 PM	And don't forget swarms upon swarms of bats and rats to clog up the sewers...
templer10 10-05-07, 01:06 PM	With the Annis Hag Vampire... In Pitch black.. you have alot more to worry about that an Energy drain... Treasure: Double standard. I would be more worried of it using it's improved grab to grapple you.. pin you rend you and take con with blood drain.. and then rack you again.... Oh and first attack drains 2 levels.. can we say ouch? if i remmber correctly it's only regular treasure or no treasure now and about the Improved grab- 3 words - Freedom of movement. p.s - there are 3 annis hag vampires.... But still the fight more or less ends first time i get hit... i just hope i get enough time to buff.
Taureus_Drakken 10-05-07, 01:10 PM	@ t10: Tactics for Ackbar in the FFA sent. Hard to predict the outcome... ¬Taureus¬
Rauul 10-05-07, 04:15 PM	if i remmber correctly it's only regular treasure or no treasure now and about the Improved grab- 3 words - Freedom of movement. p.s - there are 3 annis hag vampires.... But still the fight more or less ends first time i get hit... i just hope i get enough time to buff. Actually the Treasure is as stated under the Monster Category (template).. Double standard.. hence the reason your fire elemental had no Treasure 3 of them? OMG thats 33 ECL's of monsters...
TelinArtho 10-05-07, 04:23 PM	Rauul - you apparently need a refresher on the Monster Equipment guidelines that were approved a while back: Pitlords assign monster equipment according to DMG p. 127, table 4-23 (or see table below) where the CR of the monster is the "NPC level". A treasure entry of 'None' means the monster has no equipment at all, but if the treasure entry says anything else, the monster gets standard equipment for its CR. Monsters cannot have any items which are unavailable to PCs without credits. For items which are restricted by ECL, use the monster's CR instead. The Fire elemental had no treasure because it had "None" for treasure. However the vampire fiendish annis hags have treasure as CR9 creatures (12kgp) not double that.
MindWandererB 10-05-07, 04:38 PM	@ My pitlords: sorry my tactics are late, I was sick yesterday. Expect them within an hour or two, if that's okay. Edit: and now they're done. Tactics for one former Failure against a Great Renown, and tactics for one Great Renown against a former Failure.
templer10 10-05-07, 07:48 PM	@ My pitlords: sorry my tactics are late, I was sick yesterday. Expect them within an hour or two, if that's okay. Edit: and now they're done. Tactics for one former Failure against a Great Renown, and tactics for one Great Renown against a former Failure. I dont really get WHY kervan is a former faiulere it's a Good solid build - should do well against anything that isnt a Full psion really - I think with Elrick i would much rather Fight Kervan at second or third fight (for kervan) - at least i can predict better what you would throw at me then lol. p.s - why do you have a ring of counterspells and you dont charge i with a dispell?
templer10 10-05-07, 07:49 PM	Torel vs malik is done and here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13999096&postcount=1375)
MindWandererB 10-05-07, 07:57 PM	p.s - why do you have a ring of counterspells and you dont charge i with a dispell?I probably should--it's cheap enough. But I rarely cast both dispels during a full 3FC, so I can fill the ring at any time. I think I started the policy of not filling it when I was feeling financial crunch from some of my other characters--and at lower levels, Kervan was expensive to run (needing multiple scrolls to be viable). Kervan has lost a lot partly because he needs a lot of buff time, and partially because he's gotten some really bad draws in the pairings. Kilpquabjeg, Annalina, Reginald, Izumi on a small map, Celia, Valen, now all three of your high-level characters, and a bunch of icky monsters.
hogarth 10-05-07, 08:22 PM	Kervan has lost a lot partly because he needs a lot of buff time, and partially because he's gotten some really bad draws in the pairings. With regards to the tough fights that Kervan has had, it's hard having no allies when your opponents have of 'em. But if you have a concept for a character that doesn't involve having a big entourage, there's not much you can do.
Callix 10-05-07, 09:06 PM	Alacrity vs Verger Stonewall is up. I could tell from the moment I say it that this one would be in the lap of the dice gods. It was. Lord Matsuni vs Sylean'delues is also up, and makes a refreshing change of pace. One rules question, though; is ability burn damage automatically healed after a fight? The Rules list "all negative effect" as healed, but ability burn damage says "this damage cannot be magically or psionically healed, and can only be recovered by natural healing". It matters for Matsuni's next fight, as to how much pp/stats he has.
MindWandererB 10-06-07, 12:31 AM	With regards to the tough fights that Kervan has had, it's hard having no allies when your opponents have of 'em. But if you have a concept for a character that doesn't involve having a big entourage, there's not much you can do. That's true... I've often tried to figure out how I could incorporate allies into his build, but to no avail. (The original version was working his way up to Diplomacy allies, but alas....) But then again, the main reason I created him was so that I could test out how powerful clerics are supposed to be for myself (one of the reasons I created Aerryl, as well).
Rauul 10-06-07, 02:11 AM	Alacrity vs Verger Stonewall is up. I could tell from the moment I say it that this one would be in the lap of the dice gods. It was. Lord Matsuni vs Sylean'delues is also up, and makes a refreshing change of pace. One rules question, though; is ability burn damage automatically healed after a fight? The Rules list "all negative effect" as healed, but ability burn damage says "this damage cannot be magically or psionically healed, and can only be recovered by natural healing". It matters for Matsuni's next fight, as to how much pp/stats he has. it's healed... even permanent stat lost from poison is healed...
Callix 10-06-07, 03:19 AM	it's healed... even permanent stat lost from poison is healed... Well, in that case, the fight is finished, and Macbrea can ignore my PM. Less work all round. Thanks.
Rauul 10-06-07, 05:51 AM	Well, in that case, the fight is finished, and Macbrea can ignore my PM. Less work all round. Thanks. I like your Note on Mac's character but i have a feeling we are going to see him at level 10 and still haven't spent any gold... just call him "Skin Flint"
Macbrea 10-06-07, 09:09 AM	Yeah, I was holding off spending money til it becomes obvious he needed it.
hogarth 10-06-07, 09:15 AM	Lord Matsuni vs Sylean'delues is also up, and makes a refreshing change of pace. One rules question, though; is ability burn damage automatically healed after a fight? The Rules list "all negative effect" as healed, but ability burn damage says "this damage cannot be magically or psionically healed, and can only be recovered by natural healing". It matters for Matsuni's next fight, as to how much pp/stats he has. We discussed "ability burn" before. I think the general opinion was that it would _not_ be healed, otherwise you have a big source of free bonus pp, especially at lower levels.
Macbrea 10-06-07, 09:17 AM	Oh, that fight needs to be extrended slightly. Sylean'delues should get to fire in round 3 and my blast that kills him should be unleashed in round 4. I don't have psychic meditation to make that a move action yet. Needed Concentration 7. Which isn't possible yet at level 3.
MindWandererB 10-06-07, 05:47 PM	We discussed "ability burn" before. I think the general opinion was that it would _not_ be healed, otherwise you have a big source of free bonus pp, especially at lower levels. Right... although I think this is another one of those rulings that never made it into an official record. Telin?
Callix 10-06-07, 06:04 PM	Oh, that fight needs to be extrended slightly. Sylean'delues should get to fire in round 3 and my blast that kills him should be unleashed in round 4. I don't have psychic meditation to make that a move action yet. Needed Concentration 7. Which isn't possible yet at level 3. Whoops, was trying start/complete full-round actions, but didn't realise both were moves. Edited, and expenditures changed. He gets one more shot, and of course it's a confirmed critical. Matsuni is dropped to 4hp, so burning any more than 2 points of Con will leave you dying. I decided you didn't want a stabilisation roll-off.
Vathelokai 10-06-07, 06:16 PM	First part of Gakhnalak vs Balthazar is up. I'll have time to work on it tonight (late), or tomorrow.
Rauul 10-06-07, 06:32 PM	Right... although I think this is another one of those rulings that never made it into an official record. Telin? Nothing on the offical record... and i really don't know how to seach the different threads it could of been discussed in... But if that is the case.. Permanent stat lost from poisons shouldn't be healed..
MindWandererB 10-06-07, 06:36 PM	Nothing on the offical record... and i really don't know how to seach the different threads it could of been discussed in... But if that is the case.. Permanent stat lost from poisons shouldn't be healed.. Well, the reasoning was that the damage is self-inflicted and turned into a resource. That resource shouldn't be renewed for free.
whitebaron 10-06-07, 07:07 PM	Darian vs. whip-target is up.
Callix 10-06-07, 09:01 PM	Well, the reasoning was that the damage is self-inflicted and turned into a resource. That resource shouldn't be renewed for free. Is this going to apply to this week's fight? If it is, Macbrea needs to confirm with me that 2 points of burn is acceptable for the rest of the 3FC. Again, I'll edit the 3FC data to whatever he feels is fit. Whitebaron: I had a look at that fight, and you forgot that someone who fails their save vs Ego Whip is dazed for 1 round. Won't affect much, but I felt compelled to mention it.
Rauul 10-06-07, 10:01 PM	Well, the reasoning was that the damage is self-inflicted and turned into a resource. That resource shouldn't be renewed for free. so the person who jumped into the lava... and did Coco's first ever tie... is dead forever since the damage was self-inflicked?
Macbrea 10-06-07, 10:46 PM	Feel free to burn the stats to bring myself down to 2hps
Erithmu 10-07-07, 12:17 AM	Torel vs malik is done and here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13999096&postcount=1375) Rewards seem a little off .... Otherwise I don't have any issues with it.
MindWandererB 10-07-07, 04:03 AM	so the person who jumped into the lava... and did Coco's first ever tie... is dead forever since the damage was self-inflicked? No, because that didn't end up turning into a resource for the character.
lonewolf 10-07-07, 04:09 AM	No, because that didn't end up turning into a resource for the character. And damage from Overchannel? I think the reason why it shouldnt be healed during a cycle is different: Ability burn can specifically not be healed magically, so even if you get a True ressurection and a heal spell in between fights, ability burn doesnt get healed.
templer10 10-07-07, 06:36 AM	Rewards seem a little off .... Otherwise I don't have any issues with it. that's what happens when My standart Battle sheet is based on an ECL 3 fight lol - ill fix it later today.
Taureus_Drakken 10-07-07, 05:46 PM	@ t10: I noticed in the roller that I had to make a save against poison, but with PfE, my Fortitude should be +12, which would make the save. Just want to point this out for you before you got too far into the fight. Thanks. ¬Taureus¬
Erithmu 10-07-07, 08:17 PM	Yorick vs Treetall = here Treetall was afraid of the dark ...
hogarth 10-07-07, 09:13 PM	Nothing on the offical record... and i really don't know how to seach the different threads it could of been discussed in... But if that is the case.. Permanent stat lost from poisons shouldn't be healed.. There's a difference between permanent ability drain from poison damage (which can be cured by Greater Restoration, for instance) and ability burn (which cannot be magically or psionically healed at all). So magical healing (like the Nimbus provides) doesn't work (as lonewolf pointed out).
whitebaron 10-08-07, 03:26 AM	@ t10: I noticed in the roller that I had to make a save against poison, but with PfE, my Fortitude should be +12, which would make the save. please note, that the Protection from Evil only provides the Save-bonus vs. evil effects or damage. also, if the poison comes from an evil creature, it can't attack you anyway if PfE is up. so either it's not evil, or not summone, or PfE is not up.
templer10 10-08-07, 03:53 AM	please note, that the Protection from Evil only provides the Save-bonus vs. evil effects or damage. also, if the poison comes from an evil creature, it can't attack you anyway if PfE is up. so either it's not evil, or not summone, or PfE is not up. Actually an evil summon can attack if he has SR and the user of the PFE potion didnt pass the SR check - it's the one decent thing IMHO of the summon monster line which are generaly much weaker IMHO then Summon nature's ally. p.s. that save should have been +12 and not +10 - ill edit it in later.
hogarth 10-08-07, 08:22 AM	Yorick vs Treetall = here Treetall was afraid of the dark ... You're missing some miss chances, I think. Since Yorick has Darkness up, every attack should have at least a 20% miss chance. But in fact Yorick is likely to be hidden so it's probably a 50% miss chance -- note that a dire bat has blindsense, which allows it to auto-pinpoint but doesn't negate hiding. Also, I think the "move into the space" part of the grapple has to be done in the same round as the touch attack and the damage, so I don't think Yorick is ever actually grappled on his turn (since the dire bat cannot maintain the grapple).
Erithmu 10-08-07, 09:05 AM	Shows me what I know ... Thanks hogarth, I'll get to that later this afternoon need to do some schoolwork this morning. I'll look at both of those issues, you seem to be correct.
whitebaron 10-08-07, 10:00 AM	Whitebaron: I had a look at that fight, and you forgot that someone who fails their save vs Ego Whip is dazed for 1 round. Won't affect much, but I felt compelled to mention it. since i'm hard pressed to do my second fight today, i won't change it for the lone reason that xanaver didn't hit darian in the first place. but thnx for pointing it out to me, i'm still kinda new to psionics, as my first-time use of them is coco. ;)
TelinArtho 10-08-07, 01:51 PM	Longshot (templer10) vs 3 Vampire Fiendish Annis Hags (Unknown Monster) is up.
whitebaron 10-08-07, 01:53 PM	preview version of shugho vs zodiac is up. results etc. will be done once i'm back in 3-4 hours. the shootout.
TelinArtho 10-08-07, 03:01 PM	I updated the court decisions to reflect the consensus on Dispel Psionics. I did not do so for Metamorphic transfer yet, nor for the Body Fuel question. On the former, I don't think it is ended yet, and on the latter, I haven't found the previous discussion yet.
templer10 10-08-07, 04:19 PM	the ECL 4 in the forest is done (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14016028&postcount=1381) (i hope) - please just fight affecting mistakes (if you find them).
TelinArtho 10-08-07, 04:29 PM	Samuel Highground (lonewolf) vs Young Adult Silver Dragon (Unknown Monster) is up. @templer10 - no arguments from me - bad rolls all around...
Callix 10-08-07, 04:41 PM	the ECL 4 in the forest is done (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14016028&postcount=1381) (i hope) - please just fight affecting mistakes (if you find them). Looks OK for Rennae's stuff... my tactics would've worked against anyone but Ikhain, and even against Ikhain if I could've hidden first. But c'est la vie, and 20ft move speed doesn't help the getting into position. Thanks t10. That would not have been fun for you to run.
Macbrea 10-08-07, 04:48 PM	You're missing some miss chances, I think. Since Yorick has Darkness up, every attack should have at least a 20% miss chance. But in fact Yorick is likely to be hidden so it's probably a 50% miss chance -- note that a dire bat has blindsense, which allows it to auto-pinpoint but doesn't negate hiding. Also, I think the "move into the space" part of the grapple has to be done in the same round as the touch attack and the damage, so I don't think Yorick is ever actually grappled on his turn (since the dire bat cannot maintain the grapple). bah. am good just calling that one done. Not going to argue it.
TelinArtho 10-08-07, 05:16 PM	I've posted the setup for Felice vs Team Wadlbeisser. I don't have the time to run it tonight, but I'll hope I have time tomorrow. If someone is inclined to pick it up - please do, because I'm feeling a little under the weather and could use a day of rest tomorrow. If not - I'll do what I can to get it done.
Erithmu 10-08-07, 05:18 PM	bah. am good just calling that one done. Not going to argue it. If you say so .... @T10: I haven't seen Mal76 around, not sure if he is going to say anything about the fight. But I think I level up if I win (by like 7 xp) If you could calculate those I would love the extra time to level Torel up or get a feeling of what I need to get done.
Vathelokai 10-08-07, 06:28 PM	preview version of shugho vs zodiac is up. results etc. will be done once i'm back in 3-4 hours. the shootout. Shugo's scroll of entropic shield is CL2, so those hits in 16 and 18 need miss chance rolls. Spell should expire before her action on round 21.
Macbrea 10-08-07, 06:38 PM	Dwarf needs new dice... Baelin guns down Kracknol here.
whitebaron 10-08-07, 06:42 PM	Shugo's scroll of entropic shield is CL2, so those hits in 16 and 18 need miss chance rolls. Spell should expire before her action on round 21. oh how i hate those customized scrolls... well - round 16+18 are still hits, so shugho dies all the same. expendables, arrows and rewards added.
hogarth 10-08-07, 06:43 PM	Dwarf needs new dice... Baelin guns down Kracknol here. Don't forget that Kracknol suffers a -20% penalty to XP/GP due to cross-classing. Actually, it looks like Telin forgot that the past two weeks, as well.
Macbrea 10-08-07, 06:47 PM	Odd.. your right.. got it..
lonewolf 10-08-07, 06:58 PM	Samuel Highground (lonewolf) vs Young Adult Silver Dragon (Unknown Monster) is up. @templer10 - no arguments from me - bad rolls all around... Thanks for running. I think now that his cycle is finished, I will deactivate Samuel until a few others are coming up to the ECL 13 league.
Taureus_Drakken 10-08-07, 07:59 PM	the ECL 4 in the forest is done (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14016028&postcount=1381) (i hope) - please just fight affecting mistakes (if you find them). You forgot to include using Rage for the day. I will include it in my own sheet. ¬Taureus¬
Vathelokai 10-09-07, 01:02 AM	Still haven't had much time to work on my fight (Gak vs Picsou). I have a few hours set aside tuesday night to finish it. Apologies for the lateness.
Eamane 10-09-07, 02:30 AM	preview version of shugho vs zodiac is up. results etc. will be done once i'm back in 3-4 hours. the shootout. As the scroll bit have already been dealt with, looks fine to be me. Yeah, I didn't even think about him using his familiar to spot; though without the 'speak to master' ability at its level, I doubt he'd been able to use it effectively; doesn't really matter!
whitebaron 10-09-07, 03:44 AM	As the scroll bit have already been dealt with, looks fine to be me. Yeah, I didn't even think about him using his familiar to spot; though without the 'speak to master' ability at its level, I doubt he'd been able to use it effectively; doesn't really matter! effectively: no. but it could tell him the general direction, by just making some noises and flying to your location. so generally, i'd believe this to be a dc 0 listen check. (you can hear the familiar clearly) use standard pinpoint patterns as specified in the coco rules. Also, he gets his listen vs. your move silently. If the Listen roll beats the Move Silently by 0-4, randomize within 20'; this is 61 possible positions in 2D, or a lot more in 3D: | | | |*|*|*| | | | | |*|*|*|*|*|*|*| | | |*|*|*|*|*|*|*| | |*|*|*|*|*|*|*|*|*| |*|*|*|*|@|*|*|*|*| |*|*|*|*|*|*|*|*|*| | |*|*|*|*|*|*|*| | | |*|*|*|*|*|*|*| | | | | |*|*|*| | | | By 5-9: within 15'; randomize between 37 squares in 2d, 179 in 3d. | | |*|*|*| | | | |*|*|*|*|*| | |*|*|*|*|*|*|*| |*|*|*|@|*|*|*| |*|*|*|*|*|*|*| | |*|*|*|*|*| | | | |*|*|*| | | By 10-14: within 10'; randomize between 21 squares in 2d, 91 in 3d. | |*|*|*| | |*|*|*|*|*| |*|*|@|*|*| |*|*|*|*|*| | |*|*|*| | By 15-19: within 5'; randomize between 9 squares in 2d, 27 in 3d. |*|*|*| |*|@|*| |*|*|*| By 20 or more: pinpoint. well, didn't need it, since zodiac was intent on making his save. ;)
Callix 10-09-07, 06:49 AM	Eamane, I saw your early work on the Gwerdan/Ralein fight, and noted something. Gwerdan has an AC of 18 unexpanded, 16 expanded (-1 size, +0 Dex, +3 Wis, +4 Armor), so the first two attacks hit. They're deflected, of course, but it means Ralein twigs that his tactics are useless from round 1, and the whole fight speeds up enormously. Short of some miracles with AoO's and attacks in grapples (or Expansion running out), this is probably a loss. But at least it can be a quick loss, and easier to run.
lonewolf 10-09-07, 08:54 AM	Im starting to work on Elrick vs Kervan now. @templer: For a second I was tempted to give your character a autoloss because you didnt link your last 2 fights and didnt update your 3FC section, but I´ll just give you a warning this time.
whitebaron 10-09-07, 09:23 AM	Short of some miracles with AoO's and attacks in grapples (or Expansion running out), this is probably a loss. But at least it can be a quick loss, and easier to run. btw: if pressed for time, don't bother with the running-tactics. a monk with a bow is kinda stupid anyway. i'd be more pleased to have the fight finished this week with variations from the tactics (means: not running away and continue shooting) than have it held over.
Abyssal Stalker 10-09-07, 01:29 PM	the ECL 4 in the forest is done (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14016028&postcount=1381) (i hope) - please just fight affecting mistakes (if you find them). Thanks for the run! One minor note; you forgot to mark used arrows. I've had my share of good and bad dice - like everybody else. This is probably the most memorable occasion.
Rauul 10-09-07, 02:01 PM	Nemion vs. Dajeus is done here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14028190&postcount=1386)... i may of fubared it.. i have never used a bag of tricks EVER.. so hopefully i did it correctly..
Eamane 10-09-07, 02:43 PM	Re: Nemion vs Dajeus No, looks about right. After my first animal died, I wanted to just toss a new creature out; but I didn't include that in my tactics, so readying to do it was fair interpretation. As a side note for my character/sling users everywhere.. it's a move action to load slings. Yeah, they suck even more than you thought they did. Re: Gwerdan vs Ralein You're right, for some reason I thought his base AC was 16, not 14. I'll fix that and rerun the fight from that point right now. Etc: The Needle vs Verren Firestarter is up here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14036462&postcount=1389). Tactics breakdown on both ends, to a lesser and greater degree. I'll be honest and note that if I had more time to run this fight, it likely would have gone a bit different, but I assumed (a terrible, terrible thing to do) that both parties involved would rather a quick fight that bends things a bit than a held over one. Namely, after running the fight I found whitebaron's addendum tactics and I'm not inclined to rerun it -_-; If I have enough time to do so after handling Gwerdan vs Ralein, I'll PM eluria and whitebaron with the changes. Next week, I'm going to do my fights on Thursday I think.
TelinArtho 10-09-07, 03:14 PM	Grrr... bad time for the mapper to have inconsistencies... Is anyone else having trouble with the map generation when using LOS? http://www.hwx.it/coco/coco.php;v=1;map=forest;a=Name,M,48,42,4 8,49,49,42,48,33;b=Name,M,1,1;c=Name,M,1 ,2;d=Name,M,2,1,10,1,12,1;los=12,1,48,33 ,2 http://www.hwx.it/coco/coco.php;v=1;map=arena;a=Name,M,10,40;b= Name,M,15,28;los=10,40,15,28,2 GRRRRRRRRR Well - LOS seems to be odd for me. Just as a note for this infernal fight - I'll not be worrying about LOS until the opponents CLEARLY has LOS...
Nurlithion 10-09-07, 03:44 PM	Thanks for running the fight Rauul, and good fight Eamane. My first victory here!
whitebaron 10-09-07, 04:18 PM	Namely, after running the fight I found whitebaron's addendum tactics and I'm not inclined to rerun it -_-; If I have enough time to do so after handling Gwerdan vs Ralein, I'll PM eluria and whitebaron with the changes. well its just mage armor instead of inertial armor, nothing too badly. no need to edit for me.
Eamane 10-09-07, 04:30 PM	Gwerdan vs Ralein is finished and up here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14033143&postcount=1387). Forgive the spotty formating; I'm really going to have to start doing my fights in word or some other such annoying thing rather than notepad, cut/pasting back onto the boards always gives me phantom carriage returns.
MindWandererB 10-09-07, 04:35 PM	Gwerdan vs Ralein is finished and up here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14033143&postcount=1387). Forgive the spotty formating; I'm really going to have to start doing my fights in word or some other such annoying thing rather than notepad, cut/pasting back onto the boards always gives me phantom carriage returns. If you turn word wrap off, you should be able to detect those.
lonewolf 10-09-07, 04:38 PM	Kervan vs Elrick is up
whitebaron 10-09-07, 04:39 PM	Gwerdan vs Ralein is finished and up here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14033143&postcount=1387). thnx for the fight. i really shouldn't have bothered with the arrows anyway. just close in and get him... as i usually do... somehow the losses of the last weeks have blinded my sense for the obvious..
templer10 10-09-07, 04:52 PM	Inzin vs slade is up (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14037099&postcount=1390) - i think I broke a record - someone finished the fight Quite deep.... in the negetives.
Sjiggie 10-09-07, 05:02 PM	Thanks for the run templer I just couldn't surrender the fight with slade on his third fight and with his left over pp. One thing though Grawl II can't empathically tell Inzin where Slade is. Only familiars have an empathic link and animal companions just have a link which gives a +4 handle animal bonus and lets a druid handle his animal companion as a free action or push it as a move action. You don't need to alter the fight Slade would still lose
MindWandererB 10-09-07, 05:07 PM	Kervan vs Elrick is up There are some little things that I'd question. One is a clear typo (12 damage turned into 2), and I'm not at all sure that Elrick would be able to tell whether it was SR or Resist Energy that prevented damage. I imagine templer will have some comments about tactics, but man, it's hard to argue with so many 20's. No need to edit for my part, at this point.
lonewolf 10-09-07, 05:13 PM	There are some little things that I'd question. One is a clear typo (12 damage turned into 2), and I'm not at all sure that Elrick would be able to tell whether it was SR or Resist Energy that prevented damage. I imagine templer will have some comments about tactics, but man, it's hard to argue with so many 20's. No need to edit for my part, at this point. Its not a typo. Elrick healed 10 points when he used wildshape.
Eluria 10-09-07, 06:25 PM	The Needle vs Verren Firestarter is up here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14036462&postcount=1389). Tactics breakdown on both ends, to a lesser and greater degree. I'll be honest and note that if I had more time to run this fight, it likely would have gone a bit different, but I assumed (a terrible, terrible thing to do) that both parties involved would rather a quick fight that bends things a bit than a held over one. Namely, after running the fight I found whitebaron's addendum tactics and I'm not inclined to rerun it -_-; If I have enough time to do so after handling Gwerdan vs Ralein, I'll PM eluria and whitebaron with the changes. Next week, I'm going to do my fights on Thursday I think. So, perhaps not surprisingly, I have a number of problems with the fight. I appreciate the run, and I feel like with the dice, I'm dead no matter what. First, you can't say "I have to specify to run" when I describe exactly where to move to - the map shown, included in tactics, is perfectly valid movement for 1 round - I don't know why you would deviate from it; that's plenty specific, and obviously includes running to get there - you'll note in at least 3 places I say my goal is to get to him as fast as possible, with the goal of firing before he's buffed. Second, in round 2, Verren can't hide; he's not within 5' of an object. During the "shoot out" phase, Needle specifies she would like to be kneeling, for +2 to AC. That negates the killing blow. Also, with whitebaron's altered tactics of using mage armor from scroll, needle should get a shot in round 3. Whether or not you edit these in is obviously up to you, but I feel like honestly each of them (excepting the round 2, verren can't hide) is potentially fight changing. Thanks for your time, e
whitebaron 10-09-07, 06:47 PM	During the "shoot out" phase, Needle specifies she would like to be kneeling, for +2 to AC. That negates the killing blow. i always thought that this rule is kinda stupid. gnomes, halflings, and many beings smaller than most humans kneeling, only get +1 to ac. also, kneeling makes you far less flexible, thus should reduce your dex bonus. also, knowing (real) ordinary longbows, it is very unlikely you can get a shot off while kneeling... btw: this has nothing to do with the fight, just the rules are so plain stupid...
MindWandererB 10-09-07, 09:35 PM	Its not a typo. Elrick healed 10 points when he used wildshape. Ah, missed that. Sorry.
Vathelokai 10-10-07, 01:34 AM	Gakhnalak vs Balthazar is finished... over here. A surprisingly close match, with fickle Dice Gods.
templer10 10-10-07, 02:19 AM	Kervan vs Elrick is up sorry for not writing sooner- iam swamped liek you wouldnt beleave in work -and iam not really able to go over it 2 much - but one thing that really DID stand out is you not doing the dispel/flamestrike/dispel flamestrike And then not doing the call lightening storm - You imidetaly (almost) went for the secondery tactics (produce flame) anmd then for the last ditch tactics (melee). Since he dotn have enough spell levels to do a second dispell like he asked - the secod dispell from the scroll can kill some of his buffs - especially the spell ressistence, and even if not the flame stirkes and the call lightening storm acn do enough dmg to Kill him. If/when you do edit - iam fine with you using existing rolls for kervan for hitting on me even if they dont precisly match the situation just to save you time. obviosly the big things here are whter or not the spell ressitence gets dispelled (25% but still...) and if no wheter the call lightening storm pass the SR since it can do dmg to Kerven even with ressit energy (potentiall 5d6-10 per round). If the dispell and call lightenig storm wont work i wont argue the no Healing thing. p.s. note that in my tactics i mentioned it's last fight and you can use every last spell or expnadble so dont bother savign up MY resourcees - couldnt care less.
Eamane 10-10-07, 02:45 AM	So, perhaps not surprisingly, I have a number of problems with the fight. I appreciate the run, and I feel like with the dice, I'm dead no matter what. First, you can't say "I have to specify to run" when I describe exactly where to move to - the map shown, included in tactics, is perfectly valid movement for 1 round - I don't know why you would deviate from it; that's plenty specific, and obviously includes running to get there - you'll note in at least 3 places I say my goal is to get to him as fast as possible, with the goal of firing before he's buffed. Second, in round 2, Verren can't hide; he's not within 5' of an object. During the "shoot out" phase, Needle specifies she would like to be kneeling, for +2 to AC. That negates the killing blow. Also, with whitebaron's altered tactics of using mage armor from scroll, needle should get a shot in round 3. Whether or not you edit these in is obviously up to you, but I feel like honestly each of them (excepting the round 2, verren can't hide) is potentially fight changing. Thanks for your time, e I pointed out that you should specify your desire to run for a reason. I listed those reasons in my commentary; if you disagree, fine, but my reasons stand. As to whether or not it was obvious you wanted to run; my first thought was that you misjudged how far you could move in a single round, hence why I ran it that way. Being within 5' of an object has nothing to with hiding. Hiding requires cover or concealment. To determine cover, you draw four lines; from one of your box squares to each of your opponents. If any of those lines is blocked by something that grants cover, the target has cover and thus, can hide. The last two are more concerning to me and are the things I was thinking about changing when I finished the fight. I've still got things I need to do today (like wrapping up a miniquest entire and posting the results on the appropriate thread), so I'm not going to get to this right away and I cant commit to changing it, but I'm definitely considering it if time and stamina permit.
lonewolf 10-10-07, 03:39 AM	@templer: Your tactics required a bit of interpretation and thats how I did it: You said that it makes a difference what happens to the call lightning, then you have to paragraphs. One starts with "if He didn’t do ressit lightening or spell immunity ..." the other starts with "If lightening is ineffective due To SR (disipitates into nothingness) OR energy resistance ..." so yeah, I skipped the first paragraph completely, but I dont plan to edit something because thats how I read the tactic. Also note that even if I did the dispel tactic, Kervans tactic state to refresh the dispel in the ring the moment the first one is used, so there is in fact no chance to dispel anything. So there is only the small chance that you can get Kervan down with Flamestrikes and/or lightning storms that each have to overcome both Spell Resistance and energy resistance. not very likely.
Callix 10-10-07, 04:06 AM	Gwerdan vs Ralein is finished and up here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14033143&postcount=1387). Thanks, Eamane. Not really that much I could do, and I foolishly forgot to check his Monk 2 feat :embarrass.
templer10 10-10-07, 06:03 AM	@templer: Your tactics required a bit of interpretation and thats how I did it: You said that it makes a difference what happens to the call lightning, then you have to paragraphs. One starts with "if He didn’t do ressit lightening or spell immunity ..." the other starts with "If lightening is ineffective due To SR (disipitates into nothingness) OR energy resistance ..." so yeah, I skipped the first paragraph completely, but I dont plan to edit something because thats how I read the tactic. Also note that even if I did the dispel tactic, Kervans tactic state to refresh the dispel in the ring the moment the first one is used, so there is in fact no chance to dispel anything. So there is only the small chance that you can get Kervan down with Flamestrikes and/or lightning storms that each have to overcome both Spell Resistance and energy resistance. not very likely. he can't refresh dispel magic into ring - he doesnt enough spell levels - All his buff including the first dispell are - Dispel Magic, Barkskin, Shield of Faith, Resist energy, Freedom of Movement, Spell Resistance, Divine Favor, Divine Power = 22 out of possible 23 spell levels. And i still dont get why you ignired that first peragraph - the phrase you quted "If lightening is ineffective due To SR (disipitates into nothingness) OR energy resistance ..." Comes after i said to do Call ightening storm and NOT acll lightening - which is in the end of the whole flame strike/dispel thing and i quterte here more fully: After the First Blast Hit – take note of the result – 3 possibles – 1) it hit and did some dmg. 2)it Hit visibly (I.e. lightening crackeled over his body) but DIDN’T do any dmg (i.e. ressit energy) or 3) Simply disipatate into nothingness (i.e. spell ressistence or spell immunity). if He didn’t do ressit lightening or spell immunity he is likely to do so now – so hit him with Targeted Dispell from memory. Then Try a flame strike – if it Hit and did what seems to be it's regular dmg (wasn’t disipitated into nothingness or Hit and he seems to be mostly unaffected by the flames) Do another flame strike, IF it was disipitated or absorbed do another targeted dispel from Scroll (cl6) – then Unload into him – do the second flame strike then If I don’t think he has ressit energy (fire) do flaming shpere on his space, then cast call lightening storm and Start blasting him with lightening (standart) and move the sphere on him (move). If lightening is ineffective due To SR (disipitates into nothingness) OR energy resistance attempt produce flame from memory And throw flames I.E my order is - Call lightening - HIt him once, take note of the result - do the dispell (first one) then flame strike - take note of result - then either do a second flame strike or a second dispel, then continue with Call lightening storm. p.s. - note that Unless i missed something on his sheet- Kervan doesnt have a pearl of power to regain Dispell.
hogarth 10-10-07, 06:04 AM	Gakhnalak vs Balthazar is finished... over here. A surprisingly close match, with fickle Dice Gods. Note that Nettlesong is a touch attack, so a roll of 19 should easily hit. Prepare to roll a Fort save... EDIT: Oh wait -- I just noticed that you already rolled the Fort save and he failed. Ha ha ha ha ha! TIM-BERRRR!! Actually, I better wait for MWB's comments before gloating too much. :D
Eluria 10-10-07, 07:05 AM	I pointed out that you should specify your desire to run for a reason. I listed those reasons in my commentary; if you disagree, fine, but my reasons stand. As to whether or not it was obvious you wanted to run; my first thought was that you misjudged how far you could move in a single round, hence why I ran it that way. As always, you can do what you want, but the entire point of the tactics, as stated in multiple places, was to get to him as fast as possible to interrupt buffing; that's listed in the intent, I mapped out exactly the movement I wanted in the first round, and I think it's clear from both the places where I describe the movement I want, and my intent, that the plan was to get to him as fast as possible. I don't see how you can interpret this any other way, but that's your perogative. I also understand your comments at the end of the fight - from the way you ran the fight, I would've been better standing around waiting for him while hidden; it serves absolutely no purpose to slowly move out into the open - that's why that was never my intent. Being within 5' of an object has nothing to with hiding. Hiding requires cover or concealment. To determine cover, you draw four lines; from one of your box squares to each of your opponents. If any of those lines is blocked by something that grants cover, the target has cover and thus, can hide. My mistake, you're obviously right The last two are more concerning to me and are the things I was thinking about changing when I finished the fight. I've still got things I need to do today (like wrapping up a miniquest entire and posting the results on the appropriate thread), so I'm not going to get to this right away and I cant commit to changing it, but I'm definitely considering it if time and stamina permit. I understand you have a lot to get to, but, as you noted when you posted the fight, and here, they're all potentially fight changing, and I do think they need to be included. Particularly since he would never actually hit me, as it stands now. He may in fact go on to win, and I obviously did overlook his speed advantage, but I feel like things need to be rerun. Thank you for listening, and I would rather the fight get hold over and these details be addressed than that they're ignored.
Vathelokai 10-10-07, 08:43 AM	Note that Nettlesong is a touch attack, so a roll of 19 should easily hit. Prepare to roll a Fort save... EDIT: Oh wait -- I just noticed that you already rolled the Fort save and he failed. Ha ha ha ha ha! TIM-BERRRR!! Actually, I better wait for MWB's comments before gloating too much. :D Edited the fight with the touch attack. I posted the rewards for either person winning at the end incase something else changes. I'm on my way to work and won't have internet access until this evening.
lonewolf 10-10-07, 12:31 PM	@Templer: Sorry pal, but I just interpreted the tactics differently. And since they can be interpreted both ways, its always easy for you to say you wanted it the other way around after the fight is run. So I have to stick with my decision here.
MindWandererB 10-10-07, 03:18 PM	Edited the fight with the touch attack. I posted the rewards for either person winning at the end incase something else changes. I'm on my way to work and won't have internet access until this evening. Hmm... reading the Death Attack rules. Does a spell count as a "melee weapon?" I wouldn't normally say so. I would also think a Listen check is in order as Balthazar attacks, since detecting him is sufficient to nerf the death attack. Other than those, it looks good. Edit: Found something a little more conclusive in the FAQ: The target may not detect the assassin or recognize him as a threat. Note that detection isn’t limited to vision only; being invisible isn’t enough if the target hears the assassin sneaking up behind him. Similarly, if a hidden assassin cast a spell that was overheard or otherwise detected by the victim, the studying would be wasted.Um... dancing lights?
Macbrea 10-10-07, 03:28 PM	A touch attack is considered a weapon-like spell. And therefor qualifies for weapon feats. A melee touch attack from a spell makes you armed. So, it seems by that logic Death Attack is similar enough to benefit from a weapon requiring attack.
hogarth 10-10-07, 03:52 PM	Hmm... reading the Death Attack rules. Does a spell count as a "melee weapon?" I wouldn't normally say so. "Nettlesong" is not a spell; it's a melee weapon that does 1d3 nonlethal damage as a touch attack. The fact that it requires a spell to create it is neither here nor there (IMO). I would also think a Listen check is in order as Balthazar attacks, since detecting him is sufficient to nerf the death attack. I agree that a Move Silently roll is required as he's moving up to the target, but once his attack has begun it's too late to recognize him as a threat (IMO). EDIT: Actually, it doesn't matter if he makes a Listen check or not. The point is that Picsou only has to be undetected during the studying period; when actually launching the attack, it just has to be a normal sneak attack. Edit: Found something a little more conclusive in the FAQ: Um... dancing lights? He was detected casting a spell, and then he began studying. That's different than beginning to study and then being heard casting a spell, which would waste the studying attempt. This is all just my opinion; I could be wrong, of course.
whitebaron 10-10-07, 05:14 PM	"Nettlesong" is not a spell; it's a melee weapon that does 1d3 nonlethal damage as a touch attack. as you cannot make normal attacks as touch attacks, it's still a spell effect. rp-wise, you can see it as whatever you want - but what this flute does in game mechanics is still a ranged orb, not a melee weapon...
Salrantol 10-10-07, 05:23 PM	If Pitlords is set to MWB's email address, you can find it in his public profile.
hogarth 10-10-07, 05:25 PM	as you cannot make normal attacks as touch attacks, it's still a spell effect. Is a Rapier of Puncturing a spell effect? A psychic warrior using Deep Impact? An unbodied using its touch attack? (I'm sure there are some more examples of touch attacks that aren't spells out there.)
Guildmaster (CEF) 10-10-07, 05:31 PM	Right - but we would still need the primary account name and password. Since I assume MWB doesn't want Pitlords to be the primary way to access the account - it is a good idea to let him do it.
whitebaron 10-10-07, 05:38 PM	Is a Rapier of Puncturing a spell effect? it is based on harm, so yes. spell resistance also applies vs. a rapier of puncturing. A psychic warrior using Deep Impact? is a feat that allows you to bypass armor. btw this would be ~25.000 as continous item.(cf. ring of evasion) An unbodied using its touch attack? all incorporeal creatures ignore armor. its within the incorporeality, which kinda makes it difficult to distinguish. with "you", i meant the character, not everything that is in the srd. since your flute is based on a ranged power, i don't think it should be even approved the way it is in the blackmarket. i still wonder - why not just use a sap and make it a flute, rp-wise? RAW, your flute can NOT be used to make death attacks.
Hirumajoe 10-11-07, 02:50 PM	it is based on harm, so yes. spell resistance also applies vs. a rapier of puncturing. The spells necessary for the crafting of a magic item have nothing to do with the end effect (other than flavor), and whether its a spell-effect or not. Its the actual description of the magic item you have to pay attention to. In the case of nettle song, it looks like the ability itself is based off of a spell (acid orb), at which point I would think spell resistance would apply. When I read the rapier of puncturing, the 3/day ability doesn't seem to be a spell or a spell-like ability. Seems more akin an enhancement bonus or bonus damage (like flaming). I don't believe SR applies against a flaming enhancement, so I don't think it would apply against the constitution damage.
hogarth 10-11-07, 02:52 PM	In the case of nettle song, it looks like the ability itself is based off of a spell (acid orb), at which point I would think spell resistance would apply. Note that Acid Orb is an SR=no spell, however. I didn't just pick it out of a hat, you know. ;)
Eluria 10-12-07, 11:45 PM	The last two are more concerning to me and are the things I was thinking about changing when I finished the fight. I've still got things I need to do today (like wrapping up a miniquest entire and posting the results on the appropriate thread), so I'm not going to get to this right away and I cant commit to changing it, but I'm definitely considering it if time and stamina permit. I was considering making the changes Eluria is requesting, so I'm inclined to grant the request; are you okay with having the fight held over for revisions whitebaron? I hate to bump this, but I also can't help but note that Verren and Needle were adjusted on the pitlords character roster with a win and a loss; Eamane, are you still planning on readdressing my concerns and reviewing the fight? I do appreciate you going back and fixing those changes. @MWB: as long as the fight is in contention, I assume those win/loss/PR things can be adjusted at a later date (no rush, in case the outcome doesn't change)
Eamane 10-13-07, 12:58 AM	I hate to bump this, but I also can't help but note that Verren and Needle were adjusted on the pitlords character roster with a win and a loss; Eamane, are you still planning on readdressing my concerns and reviewing the fight? I do appreciate you going back and fixing those changes. @MWB: as long as the fight is in contention, I assume those win/loss/PR things can be adjusted at a later date (no rush, in case the outcome doesn't change) Yes, I'm going to rerun the fight, likely tomorrow in the afternoon. I PM'd pitlords regarding the status of the fight, so when everything gets processed it should get looked at again.
MindWandererB 10-13-07, 01:06 AM	I hate to bump this, but I also can't help but note that Verren and Needle were adjusted on the pitlords character roster with a win and a loss; Eamane, are you still planning on readdressing my concerns and reviewing the fight? I do appreciate you going back and fixing those changes. @MWB: as long as the fight is in contention, I assume those win/loss/PR things can be adjusted at a later date (no rush, in case the outcome doesn't change) Yeah, I keep obsessive records of PR changes, so they can always be reverted. Although, if a fight from several weeks before gets a result change (it's happened), it results in a whole ton of calculation revisions....
Vathelokai 10-13-07, 01:35 AM	Just so everyone knows: I'm still going to get the Gakhnalak/Balthazar issue resolved (sometime tomorrow), and finish my quest up (also, probably tomorrow).
Vathelokai 10-13-07, 01:22 PM	Link to fight in question. Hmm... reading the Death Attack rules. Does a spell count as a "melee weapon?" I wouldn't normally say so. I would also think a Listen check is in order as Balthazar attacks, since detecting him is sufficient to nerf the death attack. Other than those, it looks good. Edit: Found something a little more conclusive in the FAQ: The target may not detect the assassin or recognize him as a threat. Note that detection isn’t limited to vision only; being invisible isn’t enough if the target hears the assassin sneaking up behind him. Similarly, if a hidden assassin cast a spell that was overheard or otherwise detected by the victim, the studying would be wasted. Um... dancing lights? "Nettlesong" is not a spell; it's a melee weapon that does 1d3 nonlethal damage as a touch attack. The fact that it requires a spell to create it is neither here nor there (IMO). I agree that a Move Silently roll is required as he's moving up to the target, but once his attack has begun it's too late to recognize him as a threat (IMO). EDIT: Actually, it doesn't matter if he makes a Listen check or not. The point is that Picsou only has to be undetected during the studying period; when actually launching the attack, it just has to be a normal sneak attack. He was detected casting a spell, and then he began studying. That's different than beginning to study and then being heard casting a spell, which would waste the studying attempt. This is all just my opinion; I could be wrong, of course. as you cannot make normal attacks as touch attacks, it's still a spell effect. rp-wise, you can see it as whatever you want - but what this flute does in game mechanics is still a ranged orb, not a melee weapon... The spells necessary for the crafting of a magic item have nothing to do with the end effect (other than flavor), and whether its a spell-effect or not. Its the actual description of the magic item you have to pay attention to. In the case of nettle song, it looks like the ability itself is based off of a spell (acid orb), at which point I would think spell resistance would apply. When I read the rapier of puncturing, the 3/day ability doesn't seem to be a spell or a spell-like ability. Seems more akin an enhancement bonus or bonus damage (like flaming). I don't believe SR applies against a flaming enhancement, so I don't think it would apply against the constitution damage. Death Attack: If an assassin studies his victim for 3 rounds and then makes a sneak attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (assassin's choice). While studying the victim, the assassin can undertake other actions so long as his attention stays focused on the target and the target does not detect the assassin or recognize the assassin as an enemy. If the victim of such an attack fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + the assassin's class level + the assassin's Int modifier) against the kill effect, she dies. If the saving throw fails against the paralysis effect, the victim is rendered helpless and unable to act for 1d6 rounds plus 1 round per level of the assassin. If the victim’s saving throw succeeds, the attack is just a normal sneak attack. Once the assassin has completed the 3 rounds of study, he must make the death attack within the next 3 rounds. If a death attack is attempted and fails (the victim makes her save) or if the assassin does not launch the attack within 3 rounds of completing the study, 3 new rounds of study are required before he can attempt another death attack. Sneak Attack: If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage. The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet. With a sap (blackjack) or an unarmed strike, a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual –4 penalty. A rogue can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomies—undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks. The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach. What can or can’t an assassin do while studying a victim for his death attack ability? The assassin’s death attack indicates that he can undertake other actions while studying a target. No specific action is required to maintain the study (for example, it doesn’t require concentration), although the class feature lists two rather vague restrictions placed on the 3 rounds of study. Both of these require DM adjudication. 1. The assassin’s attention must remain focused on the target. The assassin has to keep his victim in view, but can perform any other action he wishes (as long as the action doesn’t break the second restriction). The assassin could even attack another creature while studying a target! 2. The target may not detect the assassin or recognize him as a threat. Note that detection isn’t limited to vision only; being invisible isn’t enough if the target hears the assassin sneaking up behind him. Similarly, if a hidden assassin cast a spell that was overheard or otherwise detected by the victim, the studying would be wasted Items in question: -is nettlesong a weapon or an item that replicates a spell based touch attack? And in general, can you do a death attack with a touch spell (like shocking grasp)? -is a custom magic item that does dmg as a touch attack a melee weapon (since melee attacks are required to do a death attack)? -if the assassin is detected, then hides, can he study? -does the assassin have to remain undetected only while studying, or from when studying begins until the attack is made? Still working on this, just wanted to post all this as a quick reference...
MindWandererB 10-13-07, 03:56 PM	That's a good summary. My arguments: - Although the lights can be moved without concentration, presumably Balthazar has to be nearby to dictate their movement appropriately. His presence can be inferred if not directly detected (as would be the case if he cast a spell with a visible effect). - Nettlesong is defined here: Balthazar Picsou hunts down a fabled magical flute. This wooden recorder appears to be a normal musical instrument carved with images of leaves. However, it can be used to make a melee touch attack against a foe; if successful, it creates a painful welt and causes 1d3 nonlethal damage. ------- use activated, subdual-substituted acid orb (no range) = 2,000 x 0.5 = 1,000 gpIt is not defined as a weapon here. Its effect is described as a use-activated acid orb, which is a spell effect. (Acid Orb is used to define its effect, not its creation prerequisite.) - "Melee weapons," IMO, are the weapons listed in the equipment section of the PHB, and improvised versions of same. Nettlesong is not. Flutes aren't weapons. If it were used as a weapon--perhaps an inprovised Tiny club, or maybe even an improvised dagger--then it might work, but it would be against normal (flat-footed) AC with a -4 penalty. - I withdraw the comment about being heard. A literal read of the death attack rules says that the assassin only has to be undetected during the three rounds of study. Technically, the way it's written, the assassin could study for three rounds, then jump around with his hands in the air screaming for two rounds, then deliver a sneak attack by flanking, and it would work. I think it's stupid, but that's what it says. - I also think it's stupid that you can do a death attack with nonlethal damage, but the rules don't deny it.
whitebaron 10-13-07, 04:49 PM	there are only two ways how you can actually do sneak attack with subdual damage - either with a special weapon like the sap, or a spell. else, it won't work, since you can't e.g. deal subdual unarmed damage and sneak. about the screaming and flanking: no, it won't work, since the target may not detect the assassin, or else it's spoiled. but seeing a spell effect doesnt qualify for detection, imo. still, i think nettlesong is a nice toy, but nothing you should be allowed to use as melee attack, and i don't think it actually should have ever been approved, as it changes the reach of the spell. (metamagic to change the reach would probably make it more expensive) but i am against the definition that melee is only weapons from the equipment . melee is everything, that requires you to hit your opponent from up close.
Vathelokai 10-13-07, 05:10 PM	It seems obvious to me that nettlesong was intended to be a weapon, though the way it was written it is not. My take on death attack is that it was written to either be used on someone you have tricked into thinking you are their friend (via disguise, bluff, etc.) or it was ment to be used before initiative was rolled. None of the wording seems to indicate that it's something to be used mid fight. Initiative itself is (basicly) awareness that there is someone there. It says in the sneak attack description that you can do the bonus damage via subdual dmg with a blackjack or unarmed strike. It could be implied that you could do it with other subdual weapons, but that is not the rule as written. If I remember correctly, you can sneak attack with a spell if you roll an attack roll for it. We had that whole debate over how many listen checks you get if someone tries to sneak attack you with scorching ray. From the wording, anything you do to cause lethal dmg could be a sneak attack. However death attack does specificly say weapon. Strangely, MWB is correct. The way it is written you only have to be undetected while studying; not while doing the actual attack. The dancing lights issue is interesting; how detected does the assassin have to be to be foiled? Since initiative is rolled, the opponents know the assassin is there. Is that enough? They see the griffon, so they know he is close? They see the lights move (and have spellcraft), so they know he's within 150 ft? Only when they make a successful spot or listen? Where to draw the line? I suppose this all hinges on the status of nettlesong. If it is a subdual weapon, then it works. If it is a use activated subdual item, it doesn't. I can see both sides of this one. Any opinions?
Rauul 10-13-07, 05:24 PM	I suppose this all hinges on the status of nettlesong. If it is a subdual weapon, then it works. If it is a use activated subdual item, it doesn't. I can see both sides of this one. Any opinions? My personnel Opinion is that nettlesong was crafted as wondrous item, not a Weapon, similar to pipes of pain and the other Music Instruments.. therefore it isn't a weapon.. Assassination specifically saids "Melee Weapon"
whitebaron 10-13-07, 05:27 PM	nettlesong as such - it's definitely no weapon. since any enchanted weapon would have to be +1 before other spell effects can be applied. would it work with shocking grasp? i'm not sure. its a melee attack, but not with a weapon. so probably, you can't get around the ac for this kind of attack. @vath: you can sneak attack all ranged attacks that are within 30ft. so a ranged touch attack, would qualify. the touch component here is as irrelevent as the touch to the melee weapon. if it's a weapon, it's ok. but actually, there is only one weapon even close to a melee touch weapon - and that's brilliant energy, quite expensive.
Eamane 10-13-07, 06:57 PM	Re: Nettlesong Definitely not a weapon. It's closest to a Tiny-sized Brilliant Energy Sap that doesn't require any weapon proficiency to use, if such a thing were possible. As a weapon, it would cost a great deal more than it does now. Re: Needle vs Verren Fight has been rerun and is still up here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14036462&postcount=1389). The result did not change, though Needle used 2 more arrows and Verren used a scroll of mage armor.
whitebaron 10-13-07, 07:11 PM	Re: Nettlesong Definitely not a weapon. It's closest to a Tiny-sized Brilliant Energy Sap that doesn't require any weapon proficiency to use, if such a thing were possible. As a weapon, it would cost a great deal more than it does now. Re: Needle vs Verren Fight has been rerun and is still up here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14036462&postcount=1389). The result did not change, though Needle used 2 more arrows and Verren used a scroll of mage armor. btw: my backup would have been ray of frost + psionic shot, but... ok, i missed it in my tactics. i still need to get used to that kind of build... somehow i always do straightforward one classed builds if i can help it... coco's kinda making me learn how to properly multiclass. ;)
hogarth 10-13-07, 07:51 PM	I suppose this all hinges on the status of nettlesong. If it is a subdual weapon, then it works. If it is a use activated subdual item, it doesn't. I can see both sides of this one. Any opinions? My opinion is straightforward: it's a magic item that does nothing but cause damage in melee combat. If that's not a melee weapon, I don't know what is. It was certainly intended to be one. If it would ease anyone's conscience to make it a dagger that does the same thing, I have no problem with that. And no one is arguing that it can't be used for melee sneak attacks; that much is clear. What surprises me a bit is that no one had any comments about using this item for death attacks when I proposed it three months ago!
Eluria 10-13-07, 10:18 PM	Re: Needle vs Verren Fight has been rerun and is still up here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14036462&postcount=1389). The result did not change, though Needle used 2 more arrows and Verren used a scroll of mage armor. Thank you for re-examining and re-running the fight; i appreciate the extra effort. [for thoroughness, since some pitlords request hearing everything, Verren's HP should be 22-14=8-4=4, you miscalculated the math slightly I believe, but to absolutely no consequence]
Vathelokai 10-14-07, 12:14 PM	What surprises me a bit is that no one had any comments about using this item for death attacks when I proposed it three months ago! Well, looking at the thread, I would guess it's because I immediately changed the subject :embarrass . I remember being quite hurried at the time, but oh well. Hrm; I'm torn between the rules and justice. hogarth did ask all these questions months before the fight, and it is very frustrating to have a rules clarification change a victory at the last second. But the RAW does seem to indicate that it would not work. If it would ease anyone's conscience to make it a dagger that does the same thing, I have no problem with that. And no one is arguing that it can't be used for melee sneak attacks; that much is clear. The problem with that is that a magic dagger with effects on it will cost 8000gp or more (compared to the 1000 for nettlesong). He doesn't have the money for that sort of thing, but if he had known in the past he could have probably come up with a solution (if only a rod of silence to cast truestrike with). Solution proposal: I change out nettlesong for a different weapon (say, a +1 dagger) and reroll the attack. Anyone accept?
hogarth 10-14-07, 12:44 PM	Well, looking at the thread, I would guess it's because I immediately changed the subject :embarrass . I remember being quite hurried at the time, but oh well. Hrm; I'm torn between the rules and justice. hogarth did ask all these questions months before the fight, and it is very frustrating to have a rules clarification change a victory at the last second. But the RAW does seem to indicate that it would not work. Like I said, I disagree. I can't find any definition of "melee weapon" that excludes Nettlesong. And I don't see how Nettlesong is any different than (say) an unbodied's incorporeal touch attack (which is certainly a [natural] melee weapon). And I don't see why the price is wrong (since SauroGrenom agreed with the price in the Blackmarket thread). And I'm not convinced that doing a Death Attack with a weapon-like spell is forbidden. But if there's a vote on this in the Courtroom thread, I'll accept the verdict. Solution proposal: I change out nettlesong for a different weapon (say, a +1 dagger) and reroll the attack. Anyone accept? No. :)
Vathelokai 10-14-07, 01:04 PM	The thing is, there is no definition of weapon in the SRD. It's entirely Rule0 on weather a wonderous item that does dmg is a 'weapon' or not. We don't even know if you can do death attack with a spell or not, since that's not covered either. Well, off to the courtroom...:)
Rauul 10-14-07, 02:13 PM	Well after looking through ALL wondrous items and Universal Items there is 1.. only 1 (Apparatus of the Crab) that is used in melee, 2-3 that use Range Touch, and 0 that use touch attack.. Personnel Belief is that Nettesong wasn't researched before Approved, or was at i believed it to be when i saw it.. a Ranged Touch Flute, that was used to Fire Acid blobs for 1d3 non lethal damage.. As Death Touch has to be done as a Melee Attack, and Not a Ranged Attack.. But i do want to thank you.. doing all this research has Showed me what i will be buying for Shadow (a expensive Psionic toy)
Vathelokai 10-14-07, 02:24 PM	No problem. It's good to feel appreciated. Remember to check up for the resolution on death attack over in the courtroom.
whitebaron 10-14-07, 02:31 PM	[...] What surprises me a bit is that no one had any comments about using this item for death attacks when I proposed it three months ago! sorry, but i wasn't around then. would have objected even then. and afaik, eamane wasn't around then either. your intention to me is clear. you even asked all the necessary questions. a good vote would be to allow it in this fight, and disallow it afterwards, and let you get something different that actually allows you to do what you want. (which would be at a higher price) [A]I can't find any definition of "melee weapon" that excludes Nettlesong. [B]And I don't see how Nettlesong is any different than (say) an unbodied's incorporeal touch attack (which is certainly a [natural] melee weapon). [C]And I don't see why the price is wrong (since SauroGrenom agreed with the price in the Blackmarket thread). [D]And I'm not convinced that doing a Death Attack with a weapon-like spell is forbidden. a: nettlesong is obviously a wondrous item. else it would need to be a +1 weapon to enchant it further, and then be otherwise enchanted. so it is, per definition, not a WEAPON. b: comparing spells or weapons with special abilities is not something you should ever try to do. in this case, it's even c: sauro agreed, because he checked the spells you used, the formula you used. his job is not to check whether you try to bypass a rule or use some special effect based on the item. you can't deny the reach-change of the spell, which should have made it clear that you can't do an item like this in the first place. and even if you can make it range:touch, it still is no weapon, but a wondrous item that allows you to perform a touch spell each round. e.g. you can't get multiple attacks with nettlesong, which definitely shows you: it is no weapon. d: this is stated clear in RAW. it has to be made with a melee weapon. a spell is no weapon, unless it specifically says so.
Rauul 10-14-07, 02:31 PM	No problem. It's good to feel appreciated. Remember to check up for the resolution on death attack over in the courtroom. As i play an Assassin... you can bet i will be watching it..
hogarth 10-14-07, 02:33 PM	Well after looking through ALL wondrous items and Universal Items there is 1.. only 1 (Apparatus of the Crab) that is used in melee, 2-3 that use Range Touch, and 0 that use touch attack.. Actually, the Maul of the Titans and Mattock of the Titans are melee weapons that are listed under Wondrous Items. It doesn't have much to do with this case, though.
lonewolf 10-14-07, 02:37 PM	also there are multiple rods that are also weapons...
whitebaron 10-14-07, 02:57 PM	also there are multiple rods that are also weapons... well, yes, but they are all +x, and are used as ordinary weapons are.
Rauul 10-14-07, 05:35 PM	well, yes, but they are all +x, and are used as ordinary weapons are. they are all also crafted with Craft Arms and Armor as Well as Craft Rod, the Maul/Mallet of the titans.. are Listed as wondrous Items BUT they are crafted with Arms and Armor.. Infact Every item that item thats a Weapon of Any sort is Crafted with Craft Arms and Armor.. only Weapon ability that gives a Touch attack is a +4 bonus..if by going by the CoCo rules... to Get the Closest cost.. Neddlesong would be considered a +5 weapon to make.. and would of cost 52,000 gp to make.. Thats 1 expensive Flute to have to have an Exotic Weapon proficency (Flute) to hit with...
Erithmu 10-14-07, 05:38 PM	they are all also crafted with Craft Arms and Armor as Well as Craft Rod, the Maul/Mallet of the titans.. are Listed as wondrous Items BUT they are crafted with Arms and Armor.. Infact Every item that item thats a Weapon of Any sort is Crafted with Craft Arms and Armor.. only Weapon ability that gives a Touch attack is a +4 bonus..if by going by the CoCo rules... to Get the Closest cost.. Neddlesong would be considered a +5 weapon to make.. and would of cost 52,000 gp to make.. Thats 1 expensive Flute to have to have an Exotic Weapon proficency (Flute) to hit with...Its not even a touch attack, it just ignores mundane armor and shield bonuses.
MindWandererB 10-15-07, 02:59 PM	What surprises me a bit is that no one had any comments about using this item for death attacks when I proposed it three months ago!Well, whips and bolas do nonlethal damage too, but I guess they're not "normal" rogue weapons. My interpretation is that other weapons that do nonlethal damage "normally" (i.e. without a -4 attack roll penalty) can be used for sneak attacks. Disclosure: I'm thinking about creating an assassin (Balthazar Picsou) with a custom item that does 1d3 nonlethal damage with a melee touch attack (a use-activated item of Subdual Substitution Acid Orb would cost 1000 gp, so I expect the price to be in that range). He would use it for his death attacks.Yeah, it may not be fair all the time, but when you mention something in passing like that, it doesn't necessarily get a full review as to whether it would be viable. That was a time when I know I was particularly busy and didn't respond to everything. The only thing that got official approval was the item itself, and the fact that you wanted it to be treated as a weapon wasn't mentioned there. I am sorry for the disappointment, but when rules are ambiguous, it's best to ask about them directly and get an answer before proceeding.
hogarth 10-15-07, 03:18 PM	Live and learn. :)
McJarvis 10-15-07, 03:48 PM	Actually, the Maul of the Titans and Mattock of the Titans are melee weapons that are listed under Wondrous Items. It doesn't have much to do with this case, though. I thought of this when I first heard of your debate- then saw that all such exceptions specifically use the words "When used in melee, this item is treated as a ((insert normal melee weapon))"
Vathelokai 10-16-07, 12:43 AM	As per the courtroom discussion, Balthazar cannot death attack with nettlesong, and hogarth agreed to 'mark it as a loss'. Thanks for being a good sport, hogarth. Fight updated here.