Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TelinArtho 09-13-06, 01:14 PM	Fights of the Week: September 13th Sheets Deadline for editing characters sheets is 21:00 CET. Central European Time (http://wwp.centraleuropeantime.eu/) shows the time. Please don't edit the sheet after the deadline or you will lose the match. Currently, you have about 1 3/4 hours before the deadline. Rules of Gladius All that you need to know is written in the Rules of Gladius. It could be useful also to give a look to the Court Decisions part 1 and part 2. Please do not make fake accounts or insult the Elders. Pairings GM Caterane will pair the active Characters of Gladius after the deadline. Make sure that your character is not in Prison (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=571107&goto=lastpost). Pitlording You should use the CoCo Dice Roller (http://www.hwx.it/wizards.com) for the fight. If you need, there is a nice Template ready to use that will help. You could find very useful the Battle Map Tag Generator (http://www.hwx.it/coco) for dynamic Maps, You must post a link to your fight in this thread when it is complete. Other useful links are Skills and Feats, Quick Access tables for XP and Gold. Recent News and Developments There have been several additions and modifications to the new Guild rules. Check the Council of Gladius thread for more information! Also being debated are the rules and allowances for diplomacy and Leadership allies, with strong points on both sides of the discussion. Comments & Concerns Post any comments or concerns for this weeks fights in this thread. Be kind and courteous to your fellow posters, don't attack pitlords. Please remember that they do hard work and consume a lot of time to let you play and above all, have FUN! If you have questions or comments on any of the changes, please make your posts be heard in the Council of Gladius!
MindWandererB 09-13-06, 02:11 PM	Telin: the "Recent News and Developments" section in the template is out of date now. I can't think of anything important to replace it with, though--there's nothing particularly critical going on in the Council. Oh, it should probably mention the new Prison rules (linky).
TelinArtho 09-13-06, 02:26 PM	Yeah yeah - sorry too busy to do more than a cut and paste... Okay - I'm lazy today - not too busy. New news: I don't know - just read everything and you should be up to date. :;
TelinArtho 09-13-06, 03:03 PM	And just like that - time's up. Good luck to everyone this week.
Pitlords 09-13-06, 05:04 PM	PAIRINGS DONE! We have a slight pitlord shortage so I left miniquests without pitlord but therefore we have no State of Emergency this week. Asides from the miniquests there are these fights without pitlord: Alexander (UserNamer) vs. Sali Kan (ayyiniwindryder) : XXXXX [Cavern] Carandol Mornenion (Etiquette_Gnome) vs. Obsidian (NiQil) : XXXXX [Arena] These are simple ECL 3 fights which shouldn't be too hard. I hope we find two volunteers for them. On a different note, I noticed that many of you send PMs to both my account and this account. This is not necessary and just uses up additional time. Please choose one account, doesn't really matter which one although I'd prefer the pitlords account for board stuff. I'm totally busy these days and can just do the necessary board work. It will clear up soon though but my presence will be limited within the next 2 weeks. Thanks for understanding. Finally the credit changes: +7: Caterane +5: Telin, Vathelokai +4: Uther +3: Erithmu, Stormwind +2: Ayyiniwindrider, Lonewolf, McJarvis, Sauro, Zelck +1: Abyssal, DSugui, Macbrea, UserNamer, Usurpator, Zevox, MWB +0: NiQil
hogarth 09-13-06, 05:13 PM	Isn't it a bit odd that Kilpquabjeg, Luxt'l and Osiris would all be in a group battle again this week? Admittedly last week it was a hunter battle and now it's a free-for-all, but still...
DSugui 09-13-06, 05:15 PM	Alexander (UserNamer) vs. Sali Kan (ayyiniwindryder) : XXXXX [Cavern] I take that.
MindWandererB 09-13-06, 05:23 PM	@Cat: Varia (Sindorin) intercepts Aerryl (Mindwanderer) : SauroGrenom [Guild] Needs a map to go with it.
TelinArtho 09-13-06, 05:26 PM	@Cat - Zax Kar Nissex is training for one last week - he should not be paired this week. Also this fight, doesn't have an arena assigned: Dameon Leonne[ECL5] (Huan) intercepts Indrithia Celeth (Zevox) : TelinArtho [Guild]
McJarvis 09-13-06, 05:42 PM	Just noticed that I have two fights. I've never been given a week 2 one before...does someone have the link to where the setup for the following fight might be? Or has it not been posted? Denshi (Vathelokai) vs. Sunstroke (MindWandererB) : McJarvis [Temple] [Week 2] EDIT- Nevermind, I found it. I'll run this one tonight. (I know gladiators like prompt results...and I like getting work out of the way)
Milov 09-13-06, 06:42 PM	Tactics for Ventr the Dreamer sent to McJarvis. Tactics for Ihdald Seaslash in progress, to be sent to Ayyiniwindrider.
Caterane 09-13-06, 07:00 PM	Maps added. @hogarth: complains go to the online roller :D
McJarvis 09-13-06, 07:30 PM	Tactics for Ventr the Dreamer sent to McJarvis. Received
Milov 09-13-06, 08:01 PM	Tactics for Ihdald Seaslash sent to Ayyin.
MindWandererB 09-13-06, 08:07 PM	@SauroG: Tactics sent. It could be exciting. @'Rith: Discussion sent.
False_Keraptis 09-13-06, 08:07 PM	@ Zevox: Tactics for Gundmir sent.
Zevox 09-13-06, 09:07 PM	@ King Uther - Tactics for Destra Stormwind (vs Shadowsong & Farig) sent. I'm rather eager to see that one - 'tis a fun match up. :) @ DSugui & Telin - Indrithia and Annalina's tactics should be forthcoming tonight (in that order). @ False_Keraptis - Tactics recieved, thank you. Will look them over later. Zevox
hogarth 09-13-06, 10:16 PM	@Zevox: Tactics sent for Reginald Molehusband. Let me know when you have any questions.
Erithmu 09-13-06, 10:23 PM	@Cat and Sunwolf: your operations are up. Cat: Here Sunwolf: Here
Zevox 09-13-06, 10:31 PM	@ Telin - Tactics for Indrithia (vs Dameon) PMed. I surprised myself with how confident I am about that one - barring some early luck on Dameon's side, Indrithia has a good shot I think. Heres hoping the Dark Moon Monk can obscure Dameon's light. :devil: [random meaningless musing]You know, some of KU's evil must really be rubbing off on me, because I'm using that smiley a lot more than I used to. *shrugs*[/rmm] @ DSugui - Tactics for Annalina Vale (vs Ivan Banai) sent. I suddenly remeber why I put so many of her skill ranks in escape artist. @ hogarth - Tactics recieved, thank you. Edit: @ Cat - Just noticed, but shouldn't there be someplace where you log the success of The Chameleon's operation (and how much damage she does)? I know the checks auto-succeed anyway, so rolling them is pointless, but I'd think noting it somewhere would be needed. Zevox
McJarvis 09-13-06, 10:51 PM	The first few rounds of Denshi vs. Sunstroke (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10074141&postcount=959) are up...I'm going to watch Jon Stewart/Stephen Colbert for an hour, though. I wasn't sure whether the cat's touch attack provoked an AoP when it delivered the shocking grasp in the last round, either.(on account of it being a tiny-sized creature- does it have a reach? does it have to enter the giant's square?)
SauroGrenom 09-13-06, 11:17 PM	The first few rounds of Denshi vs. Sunstroke (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10074141&postcount=959) are up...I'm going to watch Jon Stewart/Stephen Colbert for an hour, though. I wasn't sure whether the cat's touch attack provoked an AoP when it delivered the shocking grasp in the last round, either.(on account of it being a tiny-sized creature- does it have a reach? does it have to enter the giant's square?) The answer is that since the creature is tiny, it has no reach. Thus it must enter the square of any target to attack. Usually that involves moving out of a threatined square. That movement out of a threatined square grants an AoO unless the cat has concealment (such as from invisibility) or some other effect that prevents AoO's (such as spring attack). It is also possible that a cat could attack another creature without reach. Say a cat attacks a psicrystal. In this situation the psicrystal has no reach, so the cat's approach into attacking range does not involve moving out of a threatined area, and no AoO is granted.
McJarvis 09-13-06, 11:47 PM	The answer is that since the creature is tiny, it has no reach. Thus it must enter the square of any target to attack. Usually that involves moving out of a threatined square. That movement out of a threatined square grants an AoO unless the cat has concealment (such as from invisibility) or some other effect that prevents AoO's (such as spring attack). It is also possible that a cat could attack another creature without reach. Say a cat attacks a psicrystal. In this situation the psicrystal has no reach, so the cat's approach into attacking range does not involve moving out of a threatined area, and no AoO is granted. So the fact that it's to deliver a touch spell has no bearing on the issue? Wonderful...when I get back to running it I'll keep that in mind. Shouldn't affect the outcome of the fight very much.
Zevox 09-14-06, 12:09 AM	@ Sauro & MWB - Sin has requested that I write Va'ria's tactics this week due to how little time he has (says he barely had the time to PM me that request - if either of you would like, I can forward that PM to you). I should have them away tomorrow afternoon - right after school tomorrow is my first and best opportunity to write them. Zevox
King Uther 09-14-06, 12:31 AM	Curiously, I set Bilk's CAP to assault the CEF Ranger Station, and I am set in an arena match. Should I have done it differently?
King Uther 09-14-06, 12:40 AM	I'll take all of the miniquests. That'll release some of the load.
McJarvis 09-14-06, 01:35 AM	Denshi vs Sunstroke can be found Here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10074141&postcount=959). The setup can be found here. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10057048) I'm pretty sure I messed up the true strike going off and missed a few -2's for flurrying, but outcome would not have changed.
Abyssal Stalker 09-14-06, 01:37 AM	I've volunteered to take the MQ for Nexa already in the tavern, but Usurpator probably didn't get the time to edit me on the title line.
MindWandererB 09-14-06, 02:13 AM	Denshi vs Sunstroke can be found Here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10074141&postcount=959). The setup can be found here. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10057048) I'm pretty sure I messed up the true strike going off and missed a few -2's for flurrying, but outcome would not have changed. Little things: The fights was supposed to be in the Temple, not the Cavern, but fortunately those maps aren't all that different in function. Sunstroke does have the MLs of his power stones listed: Power stone of Body Equilibrium [3] [0 lbs][150 gp]That's ML 3. In round 6, Denshi can't escape the grapple without escaping the pin first. That's one of the things that makes pinning so nasty--you need two successful grapple checks to escape, and not many people even get two chances. EDIT: Actually, it looks like you knew this, but didn't phrase it quite right there. No harm, no foul. Oh, the grapple damage is too low--should have been 1d8+5 due to Expansion. But none of these things need fixing. The True Strike looks right.
McJarvis 09-14-06, 02:27 AM	Little things: The fights was supposed to be in the Temple, not the Cavern, but fortunately those maps aren't all that different in function. Sunstroke does have the MLs of his power stones listed: That's ML 3. In round 6, Denshi can't escape the grapple without escaping the pin first. That's one of the things that makes pinning so nasty--you need two successful grapple checks to escape, and not many people even get two chances. EDIT: Actually, it looks like you knew this, but didn't phrase it quite right there. No harm, no foul. Oh, the grapple damage is too low--should have been 1d8+5 due to Expansion. But none of these things need fixing. The True Strike looks right. Oops! I even confused the temple & cavarn at first and thought to myself, "ok, now make sure you pick the right one..." And then proceded to load the map for the cavarn again. :-O As far as true strike goes- I wasn't sure whether it should have applied to his roll against your trying to pin him on your turn. I waited until it was actually his turn to do it....wasn't sure if his counter-grapple roll was considered an "attack roll" when it's opposing your attacks on him. This is generally why I try not to do fights after 11pm, but I wanted to get this over for you guys since you're in week 2.... :-) Edit- I just looked back at the powerstone/ML thing- I thought that was the number you owned of each one.
Caterane 09-14-06, 03:56 AM	I took the last arena match although I would really appreciate if someone could take it over for me. @Uther: Operations begin the following week, not the week they're announced. THat's why I ask guildmasters to add the start date into their summary. And you take all MQs? Awesome! King Uther +4° Caterane +1° @Zevox: Added the rolls in the guildhall. 726 damage
lonewolf 09-14-06, 05:16 AM	I take the fight.
Vathelokai 09-14-06, 05:23 AM	As far as true strike goes- I wasn't sure whether it should have applied to his roll against your trying to pin him on your turn. I waited until it was actually his turn to do it....wasn't sure if his counter-grapple roll was considered an "attack roll" when it's opposing your attacks on him.Grapple checks are not considered attack rolls, so truestrike dosn't apply. I wanted the truestrike for an attack action.This is generally why I try not to do fights after 11pm, but I wanted to get this over for you guys since you're in week 2.... :-)Thanks! All parties agree to the outcome; thanks for the quick run.
Caterane 09-14-06, 05:24 AM	Vielen Dank lonewolf! New pairing: Carandol Mornenion (Etiquette_Gnome) vs. Obsidian (NiQil) : lonewolf [Arena] Cat -1° lonewolf +1°
Hirumajoe 09-14-06, 07:34 AM	I was wondering for the team fight: Ash (NiQil) & Fnorri (False_Keraptis) vs. Zax Kar (TelinArtho) & Valen (Hirumajoe) : Zelck [City] [Team] Should I be working out tactics now for the fight as stated or wait for a repairing given that Zax Kar is supposed to be doing a full activity this week and not be paired? Also as a side question, in team fights in general, are you assumed to know where your partner is starting? Thanks, Hirumajoe
Zevox 09-14-06, 07:41 AM	Also as a side question, in team fights in general, are you assumed to know where your partner is starting? No, although it is possible to start in the same location as your partner if the random placement puts you there. Zevox
Caterane 09-14-06, 08:51 AM	Corrected: Ash (NiQil) vs. Fnorri (False_Keraptis) vs. Valen (Hirumajoe) : Zelck [City] [All vs All]
DSugui 09-14-06, 10:12 AM	@lonewolf: Tactics for Krug sent by PM @Macbrea: Tactics for Daisy sent by PM @Zevox: Tactics received. EDIT: Question: Does the MQ for an operation against a guild take place in that guild's map? For instance, all those MQ's against the EHTC take place on the EHTC map?
Erithmu 09-14-06, 11:24 AM	EDIT: Question: Does the MQ for an operation against a guild take place in that guild's map? For instance, all those MQ's against the EHTC take place on the EHTC map? Seeing as I'm running two, I don't think they have to be 'on' the EHTC map, but somewhere 'at' the EHTC.
hogarth 09-14-06, 11:27 AM	@Erithmu: Tactics sent for Kilpquabjeg. Too bad this isn't on the Plains map like last week's fight...
McJarvis 09-14-06, 12:47 PM	@ TelinArtho: Tactics received. Will run the fight tonight or tomorrow morning.
Zevox 09-14-06, 12:49 PM	I was under the impression that the Guild maps were used for regiment battles, not operations. Zevox
TelinArtho 09-14-06, 12:56 PM	I have sent tactics to my pitlords for Kraegin and Darrgon. Farig's tactics have been sent to Erithmu for review and will be sent to the pitlord soon.
Erithmu 09-14-06, 12:56 PM	I am using the PSI vs EYE for reference, I think that as long as it takes place within a theoretical location within the compound then it is ok (can't have a fight outside unless it is like scaling the wall or something else) @Zevox: sent you something for your own enjoyment.
TelinArtho 09-14-06, 01:14 PM	@Cat - is Sir Valkin's MQ for his mission supposed to be EL10 or EL8?
lonewolf 09-14-06, 01:27 PM	I have sent all my tactics.
False_Keraptis 09-14-06, 01:29 PM	@ Zelck: Tactics for Fnorri sent. @ NiQil: Too bad it wasn't a team battle; a dwarf wizard and a dwarf warrior would have been a cool team. Gotta love the dwarves.
Hirumajoe 09-14-06, 04:15 PM	@Zelck: Tactics Sent for Valen Sky And I'm personally glad I'm not facing the Fighter/Wizard Dwarven tag team... That would have just been... painful.
Stormwind 09-14-06, 05:24 PM	@King Uther: Tactics for Varjo sent via PM.
McJarvis 09-14-06, 05:27 PM	@Telin: Tactics sent for Ned, the fearsome Rouge Saint.
Sjiggie 09-14-06, 05:44 PM	@ TelinArtho: Tactics send for Maglu Hrugg
TelinArtho 09-14-06, 05:48 PM	Okay - I've received one set of tactics from each of my 1 on 1 fights. I haven't received any tactics in the 4-person fight (team fight). I've got plenty of fights this week to run... keep sending tactics - first come first served!
Usurpator 09-14-06, 05:59 PM	I've volunteered to take the MQ for Nexa already in the tavern, but Usurpator probably didn't get the time to edit me on the title line. That's right, you still up for it?
c00lz3 09-14-06, 06:29 PM	@TelinArtho: Tactics sent for Cyrus
McJarvis 09-14-06, 06:31 PM	@TelinArtho: Tactics sent for Cyrus w00t! We're first! :D
Erithmu 09-14-06, 08:33 PM	@Telin: Team nature is almost done with it's tactics @KU: Tactics for Shadowsong sent via PM @bgt, Hogarth: got both your tactics, just waiting on Iced @Anyone: can someone run Loddicks MQ, doesn't have to be the bulette fight that Iced had set up, but a normal MQ is fine.
NiQil 09-14-06, 10:03 PM	@ Zelck: Tactics for Ash sent via PM @ TelinArtho: Tactics for Lasher sent via PM @ lonewolf: Tactics for Obsidian sent via PM
Zevox 09-14-06, 11:31 PM	@ Sauro - Tactics for Va'ria are away. They're among the most complex and contingency-riddled I can remember ever writing (which means I loved writing them, but whether you'll like running them is questionable). Makes me want to get back to trying to make a Mystic Theurge... *sigh* Zevox
Abyssal Stalker 09-15-06, 12:28 AM	That's right, you still up for it? Yes of course, I was kinda waiting for you to drop me some info about it. I'll get it rolling as quickly as possible. Sorry about the delay, it's just that Cat assigned all the MQ's to Uther (ignoring my message...). I'll PM Uther and Cat that I'm running your quest so that there won't be anymore confusion.
Iced 09-15-06, 12:37 AM	@Erithmu - Tactics for Osiris sent via PM.
Erithmu 09-15-06, 12:48 AM	@Erithmu - Tactics for Osiris sent via PM. Reply right back at you.
Iced 09-15-06, 12:54 AM	@Erithmu - Reply received and considered. Alteration sent. ~Iced
King Uther 09-15-06, 01:41 AM	Announcement: It is with deep regret that I will have to reduce my duties and participation at the CoCo. I love this place, and playing the greatest game on earth with you all. But I feel like if I do not get away from this then I will eventually quit altogether, which would be even more regrettable. So I will no longer play any characters or run arena fights, but I will continue my campaign, finish any quests/MQs and arena fights, and even start and work on new campaigns to keep the ball rolling. While I am away I am going to catalogue everything storywise that has happened in Gladius. Why? It is my ultimate dream to turn this world created by D&D players into a real campaign world everyone can enjoy in. But in order to do that a lot of work has to be done. Anyways, it has been a pleasure, ad I hope you all enjoyed playing with me as much as I enjoyed playing with you. I will be back, I just need some time to regenerate.
NedTheDestroyer 09-15-06, 03:04 AM	@TelinArtho - Tactics for Kon vs Maglu sent @ayyiniwindryder - Tactics for R'y vs Joanni sent Thank you both for PL'ing
Dracazar 09-15-06, 03:43 AM	@lonewolf: Tactic for Quesis was sent @TelinArtho: Tectic for Dracazar was sent but there are problems with Andurwin's tactic due to mailbox full EDIT: Oh! Also lonewolf mailbox was full!
Abyssal Stalker 09-15-06, 04:21 AM	@Usurpator: Nexa's MQ (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=702844)is set up.
lonewolf 09-15-06, 04:21 AM	my mailbox is cleared
TheMagister 09-15-06, 07:23 AM	@Usernamer and Vathelokai - tactix for Rubicanti vs Zodiac sent via PM. {chanting} "No Anixx rolls...No Anixx rolls...No Anixx rolls..." TM
Vathelokai 09-15-06, 08:26 AM	Mwahahahahahah! Puppies sacrificed to Dice Gods and tactics for Zodiac sent.
Pittbull 09-15-06, 08:51 AM	@DSugui: Tactic for Hagrid's assault has been sent via PM. Sorry, that it took so long, I've been very busy at work today.
ayyiniwindryder 09-15-06, 10:59 AM	@DSugui - tactics for both Ivan and Sali sent @Milov, NedTheDestroyer, Dr. Funk - tactics received @Anaconda - still waiting. you have like 5 hrs
TheMagister 09-15-06, 11:26 AM	Heh. I should have specified to get as close as possible all the time so that when Rubicanti makes his save vs. sleep, Zodiac would have to save against his own spell... Would've been funny. No, really! It would've been! TM
TelinArtho 09-15-06, 12:04 PM	My mailbox has been opened up some more. I hope that anyone who found it full can either resend or has already sent it to my email address (that's why I keep it there). Slight issue with Coolz's tactics - so that one probably won't be first. We'll see though.
DSugui 09-15-06, 12:12 PM	@Pittbull and Ayyini: Tactics received.
TelinArtho 09-15-06, 12:16 PM	My mailbox has been opened up some more. I hope that anyone who found it full can either resend or has already sent it to my email address (that's why I keep it there). Slight issue with Coolz's tactics - so that one probably won't be first. We'll see though. Actually - apparently Cat took the email address off of the Active Pitlord post. I'll add it to my Pitlord profile so that it can be used as a backup if needed (since I tend to see my PM box fill up all the time...)
TelinArtho 09-15-06, 12:19 PM	Lasher (NiQil) vs. Vladmir V'dagrr (Macbrea) : TelinArtho [Cavern] Kon the Doorknocker (NedTheDestroyer) vs. Maglu Hrugg (Sjiggie) : TelinArtho [Plains] Cyrus (c00lz3) vs. Ned the Rouge Saint (McJarvis) : TelinArtho [City] Dameon Leonne[ECL5] (Huan) intercepts Indrithia Celeth (Zevox) : TelinArtho [Temple] [Guild] Kervan (MindwandererB) & Torel (Erithmu) vs. Dracazar (Dracazar) & Andurwin (Zelck) : TelinArtho [Plains] [Team] Cyrus needs some clarification but if I don't the tactics look complete enough to run with. I'll start with Vladimir vs Lasher This weekend is likely to be very busy (my brother getting married on Saturday and then a trip out with the out-of-towners to Boston for the Duck Tours), so whatever is not done by today will be done on Monday. EDIT - Just missing Dameon's tactics at this point.
TelinArtho 09-15-06, 01:29 PM	Lasher (NiQil) vs Vladmir V'dagrr (MacBrea) Quick and dirty...
Macbrea 09-15-06, 01:39 PM	Yup, am good with those results. Vlad begins his plan!
Hirumajoe 09-15-06, 01:40 PM	I hate to bring this up after the fight, but I just noticed that Lasher seems to have the same problem Ash does (possibly cut and paste when creating the similar characters?) That being he lists 2 power points coming from feats, but lacks either Wild Talent or Psionic Talent. This means he should have 0 PP (0 from 1 level of PsyWar and 0 from 13 Wisdom). And from what I've been told, having 0 power points makes you ineligible for Psionic feats such as Speed of Thought.
TelinArtho 09-15-06, 01:41 PM	Actually - if you read the tactics - that has been addressed.
Hirumajoe 09-15-06, 01:44 PM	You're right. That's what I get for posting before reading the entire setup and fight. My apologies.
TelinArtho 09-15-06, 02:32 PM	Kon the Doorknocker (NedTheDestroyer) vs. Maglu Hrugg (Sjiggie) is up. Another quick and dirty fight... this time on the plains...
c00lz3 09-15-06, 03:15 PM	Sorry about that section of tactics. I will make sure it's better explaind in the future.:embarrass
TelinArtho 09-15-06, 05:56 PM	Cyrus (c00lz3) vs. Ned the Rouge Saint (McJarvis) is up. Not so quick and dirty...
Vathelokai 09-15-06, 06:23 PM	Heh. I should have specified to get as close as possible all the time so that when Rubicanti makes his save vs. sleep, Zodiac would have to save against his own spell... Would've been funny. No, really! It would've been! TM Would have been, except it's a burst area of effect; he can target it 10 ft behind you. Now if you entered his space, but didn't grapple him, that might do it. But Zodiac dosn't swing that way. If you're gonna get that close, he wants a hug. :)
c00lz3 09-15-06, 06:28 PM	I only have one problem with the fight I was woundering, the duration of control lights is Concentration, up to 1 min./level, or 1 round, if I ceased consentration would the darkness continue for 3minuts? here are the rules: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#concentrationD uration Power http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/controlLight.htm Concentration The power lasts as long as you concentrate on it. Concentrating to maintain a power is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Anything that could break your concentration when manifesting a power can also break your concentration while you’re maintaining one, causing the power to end. You can’t manifest a power while concentrating on another one. Some powers may last for a short time after you cease concentrating. In such a case, the power keeps going for the given length of time after you stop concentrating, but no longer. Otherwise, you must concentrate to maintain the power, but you can’t maintain it for more than a stated duration in any event. If a target moves out of range, the power reacts as if your concentration had been broken. I want to make sure this is right! would this change the fight? If I am wrong then I really need to rethink my tactics. what is the 1minut/level there for if not this? Thanks for clarification!
TelinArtho 09-15-06, 06:49 PM	It means if you concentrate on it - you can keep the spell up for up to 1 min/level. If you stop concentrating - it immediately ends unless otherwise specified. For instance: Minor Image Illusion (Figment) Level: Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2 Duration: Concentration +2 rounds Specifies the amount of time it lasts after concentration ends.
c00lz3 09-15-06, 08:48 PM	It means if you concentrate on it - you can keep the spell up for up to 1 min/level. If you stop concentrating - it immediately ends unless otherwise specified all I have to say is.... And now you know and knowing is half the battle, J-i Joe!
McJarvis 09-16-06, 02:07 AM	@ My two remaining fighters: Looks like my schedule is busy tomorrow, but I have nothing going on on sunday. I will run the fight right after church.((around 1pm EST)
lonewolf 09-16-06, 03:21 AM	Still missing tactics for: Carandol Mornenion (Etiquette_Gnome) vs. Obsidian (NiQil) : lonewolf [Arena] and Bilk Stonespike (King Uther) vs. Izumi (Macbrea) : lonewolf [Sewer] I will do my third fight now, but if I havent recieved another tactic by then, I will have to use default tactics.
lonewolf 09-16-06, 07:27 AM	Krug Butcher vs. Quesis II is up. I give King Uther and Etiquette_Gnome 2 more hours to send tactics before handing out auto-losses.
lonewolf 09-16-06, 10:48 AM	Bilk Stonespike vs. Izumi is up. Carandol Mornenion vs. Obsidian is up. Sorry that it ended like this, but I really had to run the fights today.
DSugui 09-16-06, 11:06 AM	I still haven't received tactics for Alexander (UserNamer). I will run the fights tonight, so you have a few hours before autolose the fight.
Zevox 09-16-06, 03:56 PM	Reginald => Gundmir => Azhran is up. Zevox
DocNessuno 09-16-06, 04:37 PM	Reginald => Gundmir => Azhran is up. Zevox Issue #1: Reginald is bringing 2 light warhorses for a CA of 2, his maximum CA is 3-2=1 Issue #2: Pin is given as a possible HH trick in the CoCo rules, grapple is a lot more complex and should require elder's approval. also a grappling horse can easlily defeat most low-level gladiators so this brings up balance issues.
TheMagister 09-16-06, 04:51 PM	Pretty sure he's using his forgery skill to make one of his CR 1 LWHs a CR 0, but I don't see a notation of this anywhere on the sheet. It's a free action, though...might have been listed in the subject line. Edit: Yep. There it is. TM
hogarth 09-16-06, 05:06 PM	@Zevox: The rewards for Gundmir and Azhran should be +50%, not +25%. It was clarified that Forgery does not reduce rewards for other gladiators. EDIT: Actually, the rewards are just wrong -- you gave the rewards for a free-for-all, not a hunter fight. The correct rewards should be: Reg: 900 xp/gp Gundmir: 375 xp/gp + 63 gp Azhran: 375 xp/gp + 60 gp Issue #1: Reginald is bringing 2 light warhorses for a CA of 2, his maximum CA is 3-2=1 Issue #2: Pin is given as a possible HH trick in the CoCo rules, grapple is a lot more complex and should require elder's approval. also a grappling horse can easlily defeat most low-level gladiators so this brings up balance issues. I agree that owning a grappling horse is ridiculous and probably unfair (at least at lower levels). In fact, I would much prefer it if the only time a gladiator got to choose feats for an animal were in the case of a druid's animal companion or a paladin's mount. But it's allowed, for better or for worse, so I thought I'd make a character following the principle "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em". If you have any objections, you can raise them in the Tavern or the Council of Gladius.
Zevox 09-16-06, 06:07 PM	Issue #1: Reginald is bringing 2 light warhorses for a CA of 2, his maximum CA is 3-2=1 Issue #2: Pin is given as a possible HH trick in the CoCo rules, grapple is a lot more complex and should require elder's approval. also a grappling horse can easlily defeat most low-level gladiators so this brings up balance issues. 1) TM is correct, Reginald used a Forgery free activity to reduce the effective CR of one horse to 0 so that he would be allowed to bring the second too. 2) Considering we don't have any true rules for using tricks beyond just those listed in the SRD and our rules, I can't do anything to Reginald on that basis. I'd also disagree that a grapple trick is more complex than a pin trick - all it does is train the horse to do damage in the grapple rather than pin. I do agree that grappling horses are pretty cheap (one reason why I'll never use it), but since none of the Elders or Cat wants to rule that Improved Grapple violates the "keep custom feats within the realms of common sense" clause of our rules for putting custom feats on allies, we're stuck with it. @Zevox: The rewards for Gundmir and Azhran should be +50%, not +25%. It was clarified that Forgery does not reduce rewards for other gladiators. I've already factored that in. In a FFA, the rewards increase is split evenly among your enemies. If I hadn't noticed this, they'd have each gotten +12.5% (25% divided by 2 of them). Zevox
hogarth 09-16-06, 06:18 PM	I've already factored that in. In a FFA, the rewards increase is split evenly among your enemies. If I hadn't noticed this, they'd have each gotten +12.5% (25% divided by 2 of them). Zevox You're right about the forgery. However, you gave out the rewards for a FFA, not a hunter fight. Reg should only get 900 xp/gp and Gundmir should get only 375 xp/gp.
Zevox 09-16-06, 06:23 PM	You're right about the forgery. However, you gave out the rewards for a FFA, not a hunter fight. Reg should only get 900 xp/gp and Gundmir should get only 375 xp/gp. You're not quite right - hunter fights give out an extra loser reward for each target you kill. Reginald killed Gundmir and won, so he'd get rewards as you said (I made a mistake with that one); however, Gundmir gets the reward for killing Azhran even though Reginald was the one that did it (because Azhran was his target and he was alive when Azhran was defeated), so he gets the reward I gave him. Zevox
DSugui 09-17-06, 12:25 AM	Alexander (UserNamer) vs. Sali Kan (ayyiniwindryder) is up HERE. Another default this week.
Erithmu 09-17-06, 01:38 AM	Figures ... right as I get to a crutial point in the fight ... Drac's die roller goes down. *sigh* ... guess that means I have to finish in the morning on IC if all else fails. Iced, Hogarth, bgt ... fight is on .... pause No serious injuries, just some pride, and I'm on round 10 ... .... and I'm going to have to say that the forest map is my least favorite to pitlord.
DocNessuno 09-17-06, 08:09 AM	1) I do agree that grappling horses are pretty cheap (one reason why I'll never use it), but since none of the Elders or Cat wants to rule that Improved Grapple violates the "keep custom feats within the realms of common sense" clause of our rules for putting custom feats on allies, we're stuck with it. Zevox Ok, thank you, but i'd still like an elder ruling about this, if not for the invovled fight at least for future ones. I really think that if this is allowed low level fight will become a horse-fight contest.
Abyssal Stalker 09-17-06, 01:39 PM	Kitty vs Kimahri Ronso is up (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10104862&postcount=972). Check for mistakes. I have had to make a lot of tactical decisions, because both sets of tactics broke. Hope you are fine with me using all those fuzzballs...
Zevox 09-17-06, 03:20 PM	Ok, thank you, but i'd still like an elder ruling about this, if not for the invovled fight at least for future ones. I really think that if this is allowed low level fight will become a horse-fight contest. Well, its been legal since I joined (going on 10 months now I think), and that hasn't happened yet. But if you want to bring it up for Elder review, just post in the "Ask an Elder" thread. Zevox
SauroGrenom 09-17-06, 04:59 PM	Aerryl vs Va'ria is up
lonewolf 09-17-06, 05:02 PM	Kitty vs Kimahri Ronso is up (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10104862&postcount=972). Check for mistakes. I have had to make a lot of tactical decisions, because both sets of tactics broke. Hope you are fine with me using all those fuzzballs... everything looks alright with me after a first glance. Although you have to add the rewards.
SauroGrenom 09-17-06, 05:07 PM	Ok, thank you, but i'd still like an elder ruling about this, if not for the invovled fight at least for future ones. I really think that if this is allowed low level fight will become a horse-fight contest. Although at first glance the idea of grappling hourses seams stupid, the problem of not allowing it is where do you draw the line. Grappling dogs makes sense, grappling lions make sense, grappling lots of things make sense. So where do you draw the line and say this animal can grapple and this animal cannot? We've decided to just not draw any line since we aren't sure where it should go. As an aside I haven't read your battle, but often grappling on animals is missused. Animans cannot remember commands. This means that if you tell an animal to "attack" that it must be able to see who it is going to attack. Basicially you point at the enemy and give the attack command. If there is no visible enemy, then the animal is confused and does nothing (not even move) untill it recieves another command. The consiquence of this is that an animal with the grapple trick will not automaticially grapple anything. It must recieve the command to grapple while it is capable of percieving the target of the grapple attempt. Specificially an animal will not grapple as a result of the defend trick being triggered. The defend trick will result in attacking with normal attack modes, but a specific order to grapple must be given in all cases. That's a move action at a time when the animal can see the target to initiate each grapple.
hogarth 09-17-06, 05:14 PM	The consiquence of this is that an animal with the grapple trick will not automaticially grapple anything. It must recieve the command to grapple while it is capable of percieving the target of the grapple attempt. Specificially an animal will not grapple as a result of the defend trick being triggered. The defend trick will result in attacking with normal attack modes, but a specific order to grapple must be given in all cases. That's a move action at a time when the animal can see the target to initiate each grapple. That was not a concern in this battle; Reg's psicrystal made all of the necessary Handle Animal checks.
Erithmu 09-17-06, 10:29 PM	Luxt'l vs Kilp vs Osiris is up ... working on rewards right now ... comments comming soon too Mainly for Hogarth to say something before he goes on vacation if he so chooses
hogarth 09-17-06, 10:41 PM	Luxt'l vs Kilp vs Osiris is up ... working on rewards right now ... comments comming soon too Mainly for Hogarth to say something before he goes on vacation if he so chooses Thanks, Erithmu. My comments are: 1) Why did Kilp move back onto land on Round 16? 2) Why didn't Kilp use Disable on the second Summon Swarm spell? A 5% chance of breaking free of the web (which she could have avoided by staying in the bog, as I specifically noted in my tactics) is pointless; if she manifests Disable, then the bats will be forced to cower and/or retreat. Those were the only two deviations from my tactics that I noticed.
Erithmu 09-17-06, 10:51 PM	Thanks, Erithmu. My comments are: 1) Why did Kilp move back onto land on Round 16? 2) Why didn't Kilp use Disable on the second Summon Swarm spell? A 5% chance of breaking free of the web (which she could have avoided by staying in the bog, as I specifically noted in my tactics) is pointless; if she manifests Disable, then the bats will be forced to cower and/or retreat. Those were the only two deviations from my tactics that I noticed. 1) It was the only place he could go to get out of the blindsense area of the swarm, however ... 2) Disable does not work on swarms .. I though it did but the power states that it cannot be used on things that are destroyed when the reach 0 hp. Swarms disperse at 0 hp and I'm going to state that they are thus immune to the effect. Edit: Rewards are now up
hogarth 09-17-06, 10:55 PM	1) It was the only place he could go to get out of the blindsense area of the swarm, however ... 2) Disable does not work on swarms .. I though it did but the power states that it cannot be used on things that are destroyed when the reach 0 hp. Swarms disperse at 0 hp and I'm going to state that they are thus immune to the effect. Edit: Rewards are now up Er...common sense dictates that if an individual bat can be disabled, then a swarm of them can, too. However, if you rule it doesn't work that's your prerogative, but I wish you would have sent me some feedback on my tactics; I certainly would have changed things!
Erithmu 09-17-06, 10:58 PM	Er...common sense dictates that if an individual bat can be disabled, then a swarm of them can, too. However, if you rule it doesn't work that's your prerogative, but I wish you would have sent me some feedback on my tactics; I certainly would have changed things! I didn't realize it until 2 min ago.
hogarth 09-17-06, 11:03 PM	2) Disable does not work on swarms .. I though it did but the power states that it cannot be used on things that are destroyed when the reach 0 hp. Swarms disperse at 0 hp and I'm going to state that they are thus immune to the effect. Well, if you want to play the semantics game, a swarm is not "rendered helpless or [..] destroyed" at zero hit points, it "break[s] up". Only constructs and undead get "destroyed" at zero hit points. Seriously...either you read it super-literally, in which case it works, or you read it with common sense in mind, in which case it works. :D
Erithmu 09-17-06, 11:14 PM	Well, if you want to play the semantics game, a swarm is not "rendered helpless or [..] destroyed" at zero hit points, it "break[s] up". Only constructs and undead get "destroyed" at zero hit points. Seriously...either you read it super-literally, in which case it works, or you read it with common sense in mind, in which case it works. :D I will conclude with this for the time being ... I am frustrated with this fight (see bgt's comments) ... If something does come along that changes things that 'must' be changed I'll take this into consideration. Some of this is keeping my mouth shut when it could easily start to say things that I would prefer not to. What I am running into is this: The swarm 'thinks' it is disabled, and at disabled, it would disperse and the swarm would be no more. I'm of the opinion that it shouldn't be this way. The other option would be that it follows you, somehow reaches you makes a damage roll and then comes off the effect, due to making an attack (this is kinda a stretch since swarms don't attack with an action they just sit there and attack.) Either way I will sleep on it, get some feedback from neutral parties, and see if Iced or bgt has anything to say.
hogarth 09-17-06, 11:20 PM	I will conclude with this for the time being ... I am frustrated with this fight (see bgt's comments) ... If something does come along that changes things that 'must' be changed I'll take this into consideration. Some of this is keeping my mouth shut when it could easily start to say things that I would prefer not to. What I am running into is this: The swarm 'thinks' it is disabled, and at disabled, it would disperse and the swarm would be no more. I'm of the opinion that it shouldn't be this way. The other option would be that it follows you, somehow reaches you makes a damage roll and then comes off the effect, due to making an attack (this is kinda a stretch since swarms don't attack with an action they just sit there and attack.) Either way I will sleep on it, get some feedback from neutral parties, and see if Iced or bgt has anything to say. Actually, don't worry about it too much on my account. I don't think Kilp would have won at any rate, and the more I think about it, the less sure I am that Disable would work on a swarm -- if there are 5000 bats, and Disable only works on 4 HD worth of individual bats (16 of them?) then the swarm might not even notice the missing members. At any rate, I'm off to Paris in the morning! Thanks for the pitlording.
Iced 09-17-06, 11:39 PM	I will conclude with this for the time being ... I am frustrated with this fight (see bgt's comments) ... If something does come along that changes things that 'must' be changed I'll take this into consideration. Some of this is keeping my mouth shut when it could easily start to say things that I would prefer not to. What I am running into is this: The swarm 'thinks' it is disabled, and at disabled, it would disperse and the swarm would be no more. I'm of the opinion that it shouldn't be this way. The other option would be that it follows you, somehow reaches you makes a damage roll and then comes off the effect, due to making an attack (this is kinda a stretch since swarms don't attack with an action they just sit there and attack.) Either way I will sleep on it, get some feedback from neutral parties, and see if Iced or bgt has anything to say. Swarms are thousands of little creatures and disable shouldn't be able to affect enough to disable the entire swarm. Additionally, Shouldn't Luxt'l be subject to the delay penalty and therefore not able to ready against me? When he comes out and fires I should have the time to drop a web on him and force him to make checks to get anything off. It's just a matter then of finding a nice tree a comfortable distance away and shooting him to death...
Erithmu 09-17-06, 11:52 PM	Swarms are thousands of little creatures and disable shouldn't be able to affect enough to disable the entire swarm. Additionally, Shouldn't Luxt'l be subject to the delay penalty and therefore not able to ready against me? When he comes out and fires I should have the time to drop a web on him and force him to make checks to get anything off. It's just a matter then of finding a nice tree a comfortable distance away and shooting him to death... That I disagree with on the following grounds: Luxt'l can really only cross in certain locations. He sees Osiris moving across the bog. At the time he is 'Tiny' and would have to make swim checks in the bog. While there is no active engagement in terms of attacks or damage, there is an engagement of trying to get to where you are going to be. Aside from that he doesn't have the range to engage anyone further away than 110ft Edit: Swarms: Swarms are given HD, and the reason I though it worked is that under the swarm traits it says it behaves something like a hive mind intellegence. and that they are affected by area effect enchantments (with limits of type - Mind affecting and compulsion being two of them) Edit 2: and in late news ... Osiris makes her ride check for cover, negating the scorching ray hit (which at the moment seems dumb that you can go for cover when you are denied your dex) ... more to follow Edit 3: And ... I'm right. Hit still counts
Abyssal Stalker 09-18-06, 12:23 AM	everything looks alright with me after a first glance. Although you have to add the rewards. Actually, I noticed at least one mistake. Kitty can't tumble because he hasn't got any ranks on it (If I remeber correctly). That will give Kimahri a chance to kill him but only with a crit, so probably no big deal. I'll add the rewards later today. I was too tired to add them last night.
Etiquette_Gnome 09-18-06, 12:29 AM	I'm attempting to not be annoyed here, but in regards to my fight HERE (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10095954&postcount=966), Carandol has default tactics, so I'm a touched confused as to how I got an auto-loss here.
ayyiniwindryder 09-18-06, 01:05 AM	Ihdald vs Geoffrey is up.
lonewolf 09-18-06, 03:07 AM	I'm attempting to not be annoyed here, but in regards to my fight HERE (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10095954&postcount=966), Carandol has default tactics, so I'm a touched confused as to how I got an auto-loss here. :embarrass I didnt find the default tactics hidden in the other sblock. I am really sorry, but I have no time of running the fight. Maybe someone else could take it over?
MindWandererB 09-18-06, 03:17 AM	Aerryl vs Va'ria is up Although there's not much I can do about that, I would like to see the Hide check made when Va'ria casts Blindness. See, she has to actually see Aerryl to target the spell, and without the Hide/Spot opposed check (there's no auto-spot due to cover and concealment), she doesn't. It's quite possible that the delay may cause the pets to engage and prevent her casting (especially the swarm's Distraction effect). Probably won't matter, but it should be done. Otherwise, I don't disagree with the surrender--I missed the low-duration Blacklight scrolls, although I don't know what I could have done about them anyway.
Zevox 09-18-06, 07:45 AM	Ihdald vs Geoffrey is up. I know its not my fight, but given that Milov probably won't notice it, I should probably point out: Ihdald can hold his wand in the same hand as his light shield. Its only heavy shields that prevent you from holding other objects in the hand they're strapped to. And since wands count as weapon-like objects, he can both draw and use it without taking an AoO. Granted whether this would save him from losing is far from certain, but it gives him a chance. Zevox
SauroGrenom 09-18-06, 08:02 AM	Although there's not much I can do about that, I would like to see the Hide check made when Va'ria casts Blindness. See, she has to actually see Aerryl to target the spell, and without the Hide/Spot opposed check (there's no auto-spot due to cover and concealment), she doesn't. It's quite possible that the delay may cause the pets to engage and prevent her casting (especially the swarm's Distraction effect). Probably won't matter, but it should be done. Otherwise, I don't disagree with the surrender--I missed the low-duration Blacklight scrolls, although I don't know what I could have done about them anyway. At this time Aerryl uses a readied action to attack Va'ria while casting. As a consequence she reveals her position with that attack. You didn't ask to snipe, but I suppose you could possibly snipe as an improvosation to the details in your tactics. Even so, with sniping, your hide check is at -14 while your opponent's spot check is +12. It is impossible for Va'ria to not spot you.
Zevox 09-18-06, 08:04 AM	At this time Aerryl uses a readied action to attack. As a consequence she reveals her position with that attack. You didn't ask to snipe, but I suppose you could possibly snipe as an improvosation to the details in your tactics. Even so, with sniping, your hide check is at -14 while your opponent's spot check is +12. It is impossible for Va'ria to not spot you. You can't snipe as a readied action. Hiding after the shot in sniping takes a move action, and readied actions only let you perform one action when they go off, standard or move, not both. Zevox
ayyiniwindryder 09-18-06, 10:07 AM	I know its not my fight, but given that Milov probably won't notice it, I should probably point out: Ihdald can hold his wand in the same hand as his light shield. Its only heavy shields that prevent you from holding other objects in the hand they're strapped to. And since wands count as weapon-like objects, he can both draw and use it without taking an AoO. Granted whether this would save him from losing is far from certain, but it gives him a chance. Zevox My bad on the light shield thing. I also wasn't aware that wands were "weapon-like." Does this qualify them for quickdraw? In any case, I'm gonna wait and see if Milov wants the fight changed or not. Personally, I think it will just delay the inevitable.
bgt 09-18-06, 10:22 AM	@Erithmu Thwap! You had no right to win this fight, you had nothing that would work at range, and you won by dumb luck! There were times that I was sitting there going ... 'What can I do now?' I probably should have imposed the delay penalty on you, but you just assumed that you would be able to get away with your tactics and you didn't until round 29 ... :rofl: Honestly, the charachter's got Lucky as a second name...Does winning by dumb luck surprise you? Oh, and sorry 'bout the delay my tactics caused. On a more serious note, you forgot to put the scroll of scorching ray I used in the fight write-up.
Usurpator 09-18-06, 10:48 AM	Although at first glance the idea of grappling hourses seams stupid, the problem of not allowing it is where do you draw the line. Grappling dogs makes sense, grappling lions make sense, grappling lots of things make sense. So where do you draw the line and say this animal can grapple and this animal cannot? We've decided to just not draw any line since we aren't sure where it should go. Well, since grappling horses don't make sense, why can't we draw the line there? In any case, we are not even talking about grappling here. Sure, a horse can use the grapple option like a dog can, it probably will never do so except to defend itself. What we are talking about is *Improved Grapple*, a martial talent that no other non-humanoid creature has. My reading of Improved Grapple is that is a trained martial art (hence requiring Improved Unarmed Strike), and something that no animal should possess. If animals (or non-humanoid monsters for that matter) have a special talent for grappling, Improved Grab is the appropriate ability, not the feat Improved Grapple. I think the feat should not be allowed for dogs or lions as well, even though they might be better suited to grappling than horses.
Zevox 09-18-06, 11:05 AM	My bad on the light shield thing. I also wasn't aware that wands were "weapon-like." Does this qualify them for quickdraw? Yes it does. Zevox
Abyssal Stalker 09-18-06, 12:48 PM	Kimahri vs Kitty edited and rewards added. Nothing changed, Kimahri just got to swing his glaive once more with no result.
SauroGrenom 09-18-06, 01:24 PM	Well, since grappling horses don't make sense, why can't we draw the line there? In any case, we are not even talking about grappling here. Sure, a horse can use the grapple option like a dog can, it probably will never do so except to defend itself. What we are talking about is *Improved Grapple*, a martial talent that no other non-humanoid creature has. My reading of Improved Grapple is that is a trained martial art (hence requiring Improved Unarmed Strike), and something that no animal should possess. If animals (or non-humanoid monsters for that matter) have a special talent for grappling, Improved Grab is the appropriate ability, not the feat Improved Grapple. I think the feat should not be allowed for dogs or lions as well, even though they might be better suited to grappling than horses.There are non-humanoid creatures with Improved Grapple as a feat. A quick search shows the Bebilith is one of them. There are probably more as well. In any case it is not our place to impose restrictions that dictate what training an animal should or should not possess. We just use the rules, we don't make them. Also it should be noted that it is possible for many animals to gain feats like spring attack, improved sunder, improved overrun and improved bull rush. Many of these have the same number or more prequisite feats as Improved Grapple and are clearly the result of advanced martial training, and by your reasoning should not be possible for animals to have. However there is no prohibition against having one of these feats on a dire bear or baleen whale. If I go looking I'd probably find several of these feats on various non-humanoid creatures as well. What you suggest is simply not workable for CoCo. We don't have good cause from a rules perspective to ban a particular feat on a particular creature. Even if we decided to ban it from a real world perspective, then we are faced with the possibility of making simular bans on all sorts of other creatures. We end up with a laundry list of feats banned on various creatures. I don't want to go there. It's a slippery slope from banning one feat on one creature to banning dozens of feats on dozens of creatures.
TelinArtho 09-18-06, 01:43 PM	@all - I've got a busy next couple of days, but I am commited to finish what I've got on my plate - so bear with me. If someone wants to volunteer to take the team fight from me - I'd be fine with that - but I should still have enough time. @MacBrea - RE: Kraegin's fight When Athena CDGs my elemental - it should suffer an AoO from both huge centipedes. I didn't look over everything - but that's what I saw right off the top.
Erithmu 09-18-06, 02:54 PM	]On a more serious note, you forgot to put the scroll of scorching ray I used in the fight write-up. Done
Milov 09-18-06, 03:03 PM	Well, I looked through the fight, and while I understand now that the wand coulda been used at the same time and whatnot, I really don't think it calls for a re-run. I woulda lost anyway.
Usurpator 09-18-06, 03:13 PM	What you suggest is simply not workable for CoCo. We don't have good cause from a rules perspective to ban a particular feat on a particular creature. Even if we decided to ban it from a real world perspective, then we are faced with the possibility of making simular bans on all sorts of other creatures. We end up with a laundry list of feats banned on various creatures. I don't want to go there. It's a slippery slope from banning one feat on one creature to banning dozens of feats on dozens of creatures. It is. There are a lot of arbitrary rulings here. Why are psionic feats disallowed for creatures? Very arbitrary. The same arguments you make counts for them as well. Improved Grapple on horses. Is it believable, no. Is it balanced in the CoCo: no. Is it a fun tactic to allow: no. For me reason enough to disallow it. I'm all for banning all arbitrary feats on animal allies. There is more misuse and weird combinations than sensible ones anyway.
MindWandererB 09-18-06, 03:51 PM	At this time Aerryl uses a readied action to attack Va'ria while casting. As a consequence she reveals her position with that attack. You didn't ask to snipe, but I suppose you could possibly snipe as an improvosation to the details in your tactics. Even so, with sniping, your hide check is at -14 while your opponent's spot check is +12. It is impossible for Va'ria to not spot you. Right, but here's what happened: Aerryl is hiding. Va'ria begins casting her spell on a target she can't see. This is impossible. Aerryl responds to this by revealing herself, thereby allowing the spell which has already begun to be cast to be targeted on her. You've got a reverse causality problem here.
SauroGrenom 09-18-06, 03:54 PM	There is more misuse and weird combinations than sensible ones anyway.We are a spin off of the optimization boards. So I suppose some degree of overpowered and weird combinations are to be expected. If you realy want it to be changed, petition for it in the Council and Ask and Elder threads. I won't get in your way, but let me tell you that banning things is hard around here.
SauroGrenom 09-18-06, 03:58 PM	OK, I ran the spot and hide checks. Aerryl scored a 13, Va'ria scored a 22 after the distance modifier.
DSugui 09-18-06, 04:43 PM	@MacBrea - RE: Kraegin's fight When Athena CDGs my elemental - it should suffer an AoO from both huge centipedes. I didn't look over everything - but that's what I saw right off the top. But then, Athena shouldn't attack a downed foe. Since Torrent is down, my worries now are the centipedes and Kraegin. I picked some errors, though. First, Daisy has a ring of Feather Falling, so she would have to take falling damage on round 4. Second, Daisy can Ride for Cover even if she had taken an action in the round. Cover from Mount: If you use your mount for cover (Ride check Dc15), you cannot make any attacks at the exact time of doing this but you are not prevented from casting spells or attacking later in the same round.
Usurpator 09-18-06, 04:54 PM	If you realy want it to be changed, petition for it in the Council and Ask and Elder threads. I won't get in your way, but let me tell you that banning things is hard around here. In my opinion, Cat is 90% of the equation when it comes to banning. I'll personally address anyone that uses an Improved Grapple horse, and try to convince them not to use it, which is probably more effective than any Council petition. Fortunately, most players seem to be somewhat self-restrained when it comes to these matters. Generally I'm very impressed with a lot of nice ideas and character builds everyone here comes up with without stretching the rules too much. Not a lot of copying, a lot of fresh ideas, and only a portion are purely optimized powerplay. Many are 'experiments'. I like that. Allies is and continues to be a problem, although the new rules have improved it a lot. Using Leadership for a cohort is almost mandatory to be able to compete in higher level fights if you ask me. What single wizard of 10th lvl will have good odds against an 10th lvl and an 8th lvl one? That one extra feat is no match for a full-fledged 8th lvl wizard. Anyway, most of my characters are going to get cohorts at 6th or 9th lvl just to even the odds a bit. Heck, I am even considering a Ghost cohort to even the odds with all the custom credit stuff floating around in the higher leagues.
Macbrea 09-18-06, 05:08 PM	@MacBrea - RE: Kraegin's fight When Athena CDGs my elemental - it should suffer an AoO from both huge centipedes. I didn't look over everything - but that's what I saw right off the top. Will make that a simple attack. There was no reason for it to do a CDG except for the fact that I misread the reach on the centipedes. As the original tactics stated that they wanted to kill the elemental first. And if the dog takes any movement Little daisy gets to take an AoO from both of the Centipedes. I will just have the dog attack the downed elemental. It doesn't have the capability to reach the centipedes.
Zevox 09-18-06, 05:18 PM	There are non-humanoid creatures with Improved Grapple as a feat. A quick search shows the Bebilith is one of them. There are probably more as well. A Bebilith is a Demon, and reasonably intelligent to boot. Thats hardly the same as an animal with too little interlligence to follow even basic commands without strict training. In any case it is not our place to impose restrictions that dictate what training an animal should or should not possess. Ah, but we already do. We prohibit them from taking Psionic Feats, which is entirely a house rule of our own. Zevox
TheMagister 09-18-06, 05:54 PM	It would bear mentioning that the bebilith is (AFAIK) the ONLY example of a non-humanoid monster with the improved grapple (instead of the improved grab) feat that I remember finding in the monster manual. I always felt that it was a powergaming angle to use that ONE example to base an entire decision on, when the simplest explanation for why it's there (flying in the face of all other examples of grappling monsters) is that it's a simple MISPRINT... Did I say that out loud? :blush: TM
McJarvis 09-18-06, 06:02 PM	I really thought I would be able to get that second fight done this week, but things have been adding up too fast. Info is here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10114401&postcount=978). If no one volunteers to take it from me by tomorrow morning I'll go ahead and finish it, but I think the combatents would prefer it be done today. Since no one posted offering to take it, I'm running it now.
Zelck 09-18-06, 08:52 PM	This is a somewhat urgent question: how long does the smoke from a smokestick last? 1 round, or 10 minutes?
NiQil 09-18-06, 09:39 PM	A Bebilith is a Demon, and reasonably intelligent to boot. Thats hardly the same as an animal with too little interlligence to follow even basic commands without strict training. Ah, but we already do. We prohibit them from taking Psionic Feats, which is entirely a house rule of our own. Zevox The Barbed Devil also carries the Improved Grapple feat without the prereq IUS. That being said....I just spent some time going through the SRD...and these are the only two creatures that have Improved Grapple without having IUS. I can't help but think that all that is missing from both entries is the little B to indicate that Improved Grapple was earned as a bonus feat, meaning that meeting the prereq's is not necessary for either creature. This is a subject that is a bit of a sore spot for me, having been the first victim in this forum of a grappling horse some time ago. It didn't sit well with me then, and it doesn't sit well with me now. I very much think that this ruling should be rescinded, and think it is definitely worth an Elder vote on the topic.
Zevox 09-18-06, 09:49 PM	The Barbed Devil also carries the Improved Grapple feat without the prereq IUS. ...and is also a Fiend (Devil this time instead of Demon), not an animal, and also possesses an intelligence well above animal level, and therefore it makes sense that it would be able to learn advanced combat techniques like that. In any event, I don't think taking Improved Grapple via natural weapons was what was being discussed. Just whether it was right to permit Improved Grapple to be taken by animals like horses as a customization option. Unless I'm mistaken, we have a clause in our customization rules about having customized skills and feats stay within the realm of common sense, and I'd say that teaching horses to wrestle is outside that realm myself. I can't help but think that all that is missing from both entries is the little B to indicate that Improved Grapple was earned as a bonus feat, meaning that meeting the prereq's is not necessary for either creature. Both have exactly enough feats for thier HD, so thats not the case. Zevox
NiQil 09-18-06, 10:00 PM	The reason that it is allowed is the same reason we allow characters with natural attacks to take feats that normally require IUS...because of those two examples. If we overrule that ruling, and state that you have to have the IUS feat in order to get other feats, including Improved Grapple, as the RAW requires, then this would mean that horses and others would require another feat commitment to get that Improved Grapple. For an animal to spend two feats to get it would balance it a little more than it is now, in my opinion. Incidently, when the first fight with this issue happened between one of my characters and one belonging to Cerebus13 (some of you may remember him), the argument that was used to justify a grappling horse is that just about any animal has a grapple of some type...I believe the horse example was given as a horse rearing to knock someone over and then walking/jumping on them (though my memory is a little fuzzy as this was over a year ago, so I may be mistaken). I argued that those would be covered by the hoof attacks and feats, but got overruled by the Elders and Cat at the time. I've never really agreed with grappling horses, or grappling anything for that matter. If an animal is supposed to have a grapple attack, it would have the Improved Grab special ability, in my opinion.
Zevox 09-18-06, 10:50 PM	I've never really agreed with grappling horses, or grappling anything for that matter. If an animal is supposed to have a grapple attack, it would have the Improved Grab special ability, in my opinion. I'm with you there. Though personally, I don't think removing the "natural weapons = IUS for feat purposes" ruling is a sufficient fix. I'd rather see advanced combat type feats unavailable for animals. Improved Grapple, Improved Sunder, Improved Overrun, etc may statistically be available to them, but they make little sense on most animals. Of course the trouble is defining what those are in easy terms, since Elders seem to shy away from something like making a list of feats that would be unavailable, so I don't expect that will happen, but thats my opinion of it. Zevox
Zelck 09-18-06, 10:54 PM	Ash vs. Fnorri vs. Valen (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10120506&postcount=980) is up. Please check for errors. Someone got a bit lucky today.
MindWandererB 09-18-06, 11:06 PM	I'd personally be against custom feats for normal animals in any event. Besides, the rules are inconsistent: why can a purchased riding dog change out its default feats (rather easily, in fact), but a weredog or a druid's animal companion dog can't?
ayyiniwindryder 09-18-06, 11:09 PM	R'y vs Joanni is up. Boom. You really need to clean up your charsheet, Anaconda.
DSugui 09-19-06, 12:32 AM	Hagrid (Pittbull) assaults EHT guildhall [Guild] [Miniquest] has been run as an arena fight and is up HERE That was a close fight.
McJarvis 09-19-06, 01:33 AM	Darrgon the Summoner (TelinArtho) vs. Ventr the Dreamer (Milov) : [Sewer] is finished (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10121351&postcount=983). I'll post the rewards tomorrow...if there are any corrections, they will have to wait until tomorrow night. I'll admit I improvised a bit because of a general lack of tactics for specific situations...I think due to the positioning in general that I made the right choices though. Cheers.
King Uther 09-19-06, 04:01 AM	Destra vs Shadowsong and Farig is up. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10122509&postcount=985) Pretty standard outcome. Karen vs Varjo and Neidr will be up tomorrow. I think it'll be a quick decision for whoever wins.
Usurpator 09-19-06, 08:20 AM	Incidently, when the first fight with this issue happened between one of my characters and one belonging to Cerebus13 (some of you may remember him), the argument that was used to justify a grappling horse is that just about any animal has a grapple of some type...I believe the horse example was given as a horse rearing to knock someone over and then walking/jumping on them. I can agree with that, but we are not talking about horses rearing to knock someone down, we are talking about special combat techniques for grappling. Any human can grapple too, but only a elite few have *improved* grapple. I'm not against horses that grapple (when they try to escape a grapple themselves for example), I'm against horses that are expertly trained in grappling techniques which run over to a similarly trained monk, grab him with their hooves and put him into a nearly inescapable headlock of sorts.
Zevox 09-19-06, 09:13 AM	Darrgon the Summoner (TelinArtho) vs. Ventr the Dreamer (Milov) : [Sewer] is finished (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10121351&postcount=983). I'll post the rewards tomorrow...if there are any corrections, they will have to wait until tomorrow night. I'll admit I improvised a bit because of a general lack of tactics for specific situations...I think due to the positioning in general that I made the right choices though. Cheers. Not that it matters, but there is one error I noticed. Failing to cast defensively doesn't draw an AoO, it just causes the caster to lose the spell. Keeping those rolls Ventr's attack immediately following the failed casting ends it anyway, but I figured it was worth pointing out. Zevox
TelinArtho 09-19-06, 10:33 AM	Destra vs Shadowsong and Farig is up. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10122509&postcount=985) Pretty standard outcome. Karen vs Varjo and Neidr will be up tomorrow. I think it'll be a quick decision for whoever wins. @King Uther - when a mounted character is attacked with a trip attempt s/he can make ride checks in place of the regular trip roll. As such - Farig is not tripped from her horse in round 3. Also, why isn't whirlwind making attacks throughout the fight? EDIT: As a result of not being tripped, the attack that is marked in round 5 needs to be moved back to round 4 and another roll should be added to round 5. That said, since Farig would still be mounted in round 5, Farig can make a ride check to use Whirlwind for cover, which, if successful, would make Carcaruva's attack in round 5 miss (and not trip Farig). Even if it isn't successful, Farig's ride check to avoid the trip would have been enough to not be tripped here as well. When Farig attacks Destra, she should be tripped first - and then get a followup attack. I think this fight needs some edits.
TelinArtho 09-19-06, 12:11 PM	In case there was any question - I am working on the team fight. It is on the plains - so it should be quick and dirty - but we'll see how things go...
Etiquette_Gnome 09-19-06, 12:30 PM	A tiny little question, but is anyone going to cover my fight with Obsidian? I'd like for my character to be able to do something for next week, but I'm not sure if I'm allowed to update my character for such when the last fight is still unfinished.
DSugui 09-19-06, 02:49 PM	Annalina Vale (Zevox) vs. Ivan Banai (ayyiniwindryder) is up HERE It was a close fight (too close...) and any mistake can change the fight, so please check it carefully.
Usurpator 09-19-06, 03:02 PM	Quick question: I'm busy with Aspects of Honor in which Sir Valkin tries to raid the EHTC. The fight can still go either way, since Sir Valkin has just been cursed, but I have one important question: What is the alignment of a Paladin's special mount. It is supposed to be from the Celestial Realms, a dear companion and intelligent besides, but I don't see any alignment mentioned anywhere. Is it neutral (like a heavy warhorse) or LG (like the Paladin)? (and thus affected by magic circle vs. good)
TelinArtho 09-19-06, 03:41 PM	The only thing I can find about it is that the special mount "is a heavy warhorse" or "is superior to a normal mount of its kind and has special powers" I don't see anything mentioned about an alignment - and it doesn't take on the celestial or half-celestial templates as far as I can tell - so I would say just treat it as Neutral. I am willing to accept a ruling either way though.
Usurpator 09-19-06, 03:58 PM	The only thing I can find about it is that the special mount "is a heavy warhorse" or "is superior to a normal mount of its kind and has special powers" I don't see anything mentioned about an alignment - and it doesn't take on the celestial or half-celestial templates as far as I can tell - so I would say just treat it as Neutral. I am willing to accept a ruling either way though. In absence of any specifics I am treating it as neutral, it just seems weird that a Paladin should have a neutral intelligent Celestial Companion.
Zelck 09-19-06, 04:11 PM	@TelinArtho: Please reread the general section under my tactics. It includes a forfeiture clause.
TelinArtho 09-19-06, 04:20 PM	Torrel Silvanus (Erithmu) and Kervan Sheharath (MindWandererB) vs Andurwin (Zelck) and Dracazar (Dracazar) is up. @TelinArtho: Please reread the general section under my tactics. It includes a forfeiture clause. I'm fully aware. Unfortunately - Andurwin had little way to know that Dracazar was dead (and benefitted from this lack of knowledge - since Kervan kept firing into the mist for a round).
Caterane 09-19-06, 04:24 PM	@Telin: You forgot one sentence in the tactic: Withdraw and heal with wand if wounded below 20 hp and rebuff with vigor, then come back to melee. Horse attacks due to defend trick.
TelinArtho 09-19-06, 04:28 PM	I didn't forget it - withdrawing was impossible: J J B | J J D | . . I | Dameon couldn't move out of that tight spot without drawing multiple AoOs and since he wasn't mounted - he couldn't get out of the situation without drawing more AoO.
Zelck 09-19-06, 04:37 PM	I'm fully aware. Unfortunately - Andurwin had little way to know that Dracazar was dead (and benefitted from this lack of knowledge - since Kervan kept firing into the mist for a round). That's disapointing :(. Not even a death cry or something ;)? In that case, I'd like to appeal the usage of Energy Missiles on the Hippogryph. My tactics specified that I'd start xbowing Torel after shooting down the bat. So I should have a few less bolts and 4 more PP. EDIT: EDIT TO ADD: There's a chance that the bat hits -10 and dies, so my eventual surrender should have been rolled out. The bat should also have 1 less HP than it did. It was at 9 HP, and then lost 15, so it should have been at -6. Missed the CMW.
TelinArtho 09-19-06, 04:47 PM	Death cry - maybe. But with a -28 distance modifier for Kervan and more than that for Andurwin - it would have to be a cry of a Banshee to get them to hear it. As for the hippogriff - you didn't mention what to do about summons at all - using an energy missile seemed reasonable. As it is in the realm of pitlord improvisation - that's what you get. Sorry.
Zelck 09-19-06, 04:52 PM	As for the hippogriff - you didn't mention what to do about summons at all - using an energy missile seemed reasonable. As it is in the realm of pitlord improvisation - that's what you get. Sorry. I respectfully disagree. My tactics specified that after killing the bat, I shoot Torel with the crossbow. See this line: General Idea: Nuke the bat into the ground, then shoot Torel with the crossbow. The only devation from this would be a) moving to put an entangle between me and Torel, b) moving out of entangle, and c) moving away from a Summoned Swarm. None of those contingencies triggered, so after downing the bat, I should have started shooting at Torel with the xbow.
Zevox 09-19-06, 05:21 PM	Annalina Vale (Zevox) vs. Ivan Banai (ayyiniwindryder) is up HERE It was a close fight (too close...) and any mistake can change the fight, so please check it carefully. The few issues I see: 1) When Ivan grapples Larcalme, he should have done damage. This is irrelevant since at no point would Larcalme fall due to it. 2) Before using her wand, Annalina should have put up a new Vigor. A 5' step would allow that without any AoO (unless when she escaped Ivan's first grapple she went to the south square and was thus surrounded by walls, which would be kinda foolish), and it would stop her from falling unconscious. 3) Even if she went straight to the wand, using it doesn't provoke AoOs, so the retreat attempt that wound up getting her grappled was unecessary. Nothing that could alter the fight in Ivan's favor as near as I can tell, either statistically or tactically. Looks like he missed the duration of his tattoo and Annalina's escape artist skill, which was his undoing. Zevox
MindWandererB 09-19-06, 05:22 PM	In absence of any specifics I am treating it as neutral, it just seems weird that a Paladin should have a neutral intelligent Celestial Companion. I would be of the opinion that anything with an Int greater than 2 that lives in the upper planes should be Good, but that is just a judgment call. @Zelck: Although I agree with your interpretation, this does fall within the realm of pitlord judgment. He stuck to your PP expense criterion, and used your guidelines to deal with a novel situation. I'd be grateful he did that much--I had a pitlord once who had me completely ignore the opponent in question, to the point of taking AoOs for making ranged attacks while standing next to him.
Milov 09-19-06, 06:02 PM	Darrgon the Summoner (TelinArtho) vs. Ventr the Dreamer (Milov) : [Sewer] is finished (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10121351&postcount=983). I'll post the rewards tomorrow...if there are any corrections, they will have to wait until tomorrow night. I'll admit I improvised a bit because of a general lack of tactics for specific situations...I think due to the positioning in general that I made the right choices though. Cheers. It all looks good on my end, thanks for runnin' the right!
Zelck 09-19-06, 06:07 PM	@Zelck: Although I agree with your interpretation, this does fall within the realm of pitlord judgment. He stuck to your PP expense criterion, and used your guidelines to deal with a novel situation. I'd be grateful he did that much--I had a pitlord once who had me completely ignore the opponent in question, to the point of taking AoOs for making ranged attacks while standing next to him. Alright. I'm not happy about that, but if TelinArtho doesn't think there's anything wrong with it, I'm not going to argue.
ayyiniwindryder 09-19-06, 09:48 PM	Wow, close one DSugui and Zevox. I assumed that Expansion was the same duration as Enlarge Person without checking...bah! I missed that escape artist too. A few minor errors, but nothing that would make any kind of change in the outcome. At this point, I'm not sure if Ivan sucks or just has terrible luck, heh. Any opinions?
Zevox 09-19-06, 10:37 PM	Wow, close one DSugui and Zevox. I assumed that Expansion was the same duration as Enlarge Person without checking...bah! I missed that escape artist too. A few minor errors, but nothing that would make any kind of change in the outcome. At this point, I'm not sure if Ivan sucks or just has terrible luck, heh. Any opinions? Luck, mostly. He certainly seems good in theory - he can sneak fairly well, hes good with ranged combat, and hes a decent grappler, and he can easily get good AC. Not so hot in melee combat, but thats what the grappling is for. And those saves are just huge, so spellcasters have every right to fear him. One big weakness to the grappling though is when opponents have allies, such as Annalina did. When grappling one foe you become an easier target for everyone else. Now, if he had a wand of CLW, that would probably be a good boost, giving you a reliable source of healing. Perhaps in the future you could consider getting him a few levels of Psychic Warrior for things like Force Screen, Vigor, and Expansion; though it'd be a bit of a kick in the bab area. Zevox
DSugui 09-19-06, 10:38 PM	1) When Ivan grapples Larcalme, he should have done damage. This is irrelevant since at no point would Larcalme fall due to it. Yeah, I realized that later. Since it wouldn't affect the fight, I let it stand as it is. 2) Before using her wand, Annalina should have put up a new Vigor. A 5' step would allow that without any AoO (unless when she escaped Ivan's first grapple she went to the south square and was thus surrounded by walls, which would be kinda foolish), and it would stop her from falling unconscious. 3) Even if she went straight to the wand, using it doesn't provoke AoOs, so the retreat attempt that wound up getting her grappled was unecessary.Actually, even if she took a 5ft step she would provoke an AoO for manifesting, so I decided she would move away using tumble to manifest Vigor. But she failed the tumble check, provoking the AoO that Ivan used to grapple her. Since you asked not to manifest if grappled, I used the wand instead. As you said, nothing would change in Ivan's favor, so I won't edit the fight. At this point, I'm not sure if Ivan sucks or just has terrible luck, heh. Any opinions?I really didn't take a look on Ivan's other fights, so I wouldn't know if he is unlucky, but I can say he has a lot of useless stuff. Improved Initiative is almost useless in the CoCo. I don't think Iron Will do you much good either. Basically, I don't know what you want Ivan to be: if he is going to be an archer, two levels of Fighter would do more good than two levels of Monk. If he is going to be a grappler, two levels of Psychic Warrior is better than two levels of Ranger. As he is, Ivan is competent in both, but good in neither. Just my 2 cp.
Macbrea 09-19-06, 11:02 PM	Little daisy vs Kraegin may be found here and here. Two summoners should not fight in a closet.
Zevox 09-19-06, 11:28 PM	Actually, even if she took a 5ft step she would provoke an AoO for manifesting, so I decided she would move away using tumble to manifest Vigor. But she failed the tumble check, provoking the AoO that Ivan used to grapple her. Since you asked not to manifest if grappled, I used the wand instead. As you said, nothing would change in Ivan's favor, so I won't edit the fight. Strange - based off the last map in the post, there shouldn't be any way that could be so. When Ivan grapples Annalina he moves into her space, so when she escapes she has to move to one of the adjacent spaces. Since Larcalme would've 5'-stepped after Ivan, that leaves her the options of south (stuck between Ivan, Larcalme, and a bunch of walls - not bright), or one of the three northern spaces, all of which leave her room to 5' step and not take an AoO. I take it you missed that he'd have to move into her space when he grappled? The mapper's inability to have two pins in one spot seems to cause that to be forgotten sometimes. Anyway, not fight-affecting, but probably worth pointing out. Zevox
TheMagister 09-20-06, 12:14 AM	Well, I kinda see where he was going with Ivan: someone who is good at everthing but excels at nothing. Usually when you're up against a single opponent in the arena, their character has a potent strength, and a glaring weakness. Ivan has high AC (touch) vs. grapplers, can get a high AC (standard) vs. melee-ers, stands (somewhat) of a chance in a grapple vs. grapplers, can deflect arrows and return fire competitively, and has fantastic saves vs. the spellcasters. He's a VERY complete character. Ivan's weakness is against multiple foes. And the dice. vs. Igg in the temple: lack of anything but default tactics lost this one for you. Clever use of the statues and the jump skill on this map makes it an archer's dream (with cover and lots of ways to break up charging lanes). Letting Igg get into melee with you was your downfall. Jumping across the lava, climbing statues, and/or just moving and shooting would possibly have won this one for you. vs. the free-for-all in the forest: again, should be a strong map for you, with its emphasis on stealth. And what killed you? Allies and 20s. For the 20s, both on attacks vs. you and on your opponent's SAVES vs. save-or-die spells. For the allies, the horse provided an extra +4 cover bonus vs. your ranged attacks, and the bat did just enough damage to cause you to lose. There was nothing more you could've done here. The dice decided it. You had every right to win. vs. Mort Noir (arena): there was nothing you could do here. Having recently faced an ECL 3 Mort with my ECL 5 Hood, I'm here to tell you that he's extremely difficult to deal with without magic to help you find him. The ONLY thing that could help you here would be a wand of faerie fire (scrolls aren't an option because of your lack of caster level [ranger 2]). Oil of Daylight would be an option, but who carries THAT around everyday? Mort is a killer...I don't even want to think about him once McJarvis is done with his "tweaking". vs. Andurwhin (temple): you got stuck with a manifester who JUST leveled, and had 18 pp to spend...all on you. Without resistance magic, you were done for. Even so, he was faster than you. Grappling WAS your best option, but you really didn't include detailed tactics on how to achieve a grapple with a faster opponent. This was a near-impossible win for your character. vs. Izumi (forest): the famous super-weapon, the gargantuan kusari-gama. And you lost to the dice (the tanglefoot throw). Still, I think you might have prevailed if you had used the map more to your advantage. A caveat in your tactics to move advantageously (perhaps hiding until Izumi passed your position, and then setting up shop in the middle of the bog [provides cover and limits movement to 1/4] and then raining a hail of arrows at Izumi while she approaches?). Hanging all your hopes on a single attack roll is usually fatal in the Arena. Ask my first character, Sdentch. Usually, that single roll was a WILL save, in her case. All in all, I think Ivan's problem is 90% bad luck in matchups and dice, and 10% tactics. He's a strong character, especially with the recent addition of deflect arrows. Advice (such as it is): 1) Get friends. SauroGrenom (I think) mentioned somewhere recently that allies are almost mandatory for success in the CoCo, especially in the higher ECLs. He's totally right (though I wish he weren't). 2) Buy a healing wand. Hide and heal are GREAT assets, especially for a ranger on a forest map. 3) Use the maps to your advantage. Clever tactics are a MUST when you have a character that's 1/2 skill monkey. 4) Find a way to deal with invisibility/hide/concealment. Faerie fire, a hand of glory, whatever. Faerie fire would seem to be the best option, especially in a wand. It's not too costly if you buy a used wand (maybe 10 charges at a time?), though this costs credits. 5) Speed kills. Tattoo of skate, wand of longstrider, various wondrous items and potions, etc. YOU NEED SPEED. Whether to close for grapples or to outrun melee-powerhouses or to get away from mounts. Find the movement and put it to use. That's about all I have for you. Take it as it is, and may your bad luck leave you! TM
ayyiniwindryder 09-20-06, 12:36 AM	Wow, thanks TheMagister - That was a wonderful assessment there. Ivan is my first CoCo character, and I think I over-reached my capabilities. He is (intended to be) an archer, primarily. The bit of monk gave me a decent melee option (grapple), as well as great save boosts and Deflect Arrows. Your fight-by-fight analysis is pretty much what I thought about Ivan's matchups to date. Specialized characters, poor tactics (usually due to missing some details on the opponent or lack of forethought), and dice god hate have been my issues. Was trying to get some outside views on it. My original plan was ranger 3/monk 2/horizon walker...but i'm leaning away from that, now. strong progression contenders include psyw/slayer or some combination of ftr/psyw/warmind. *shrug*
Zelck 09-20-06, 12:37 AM	vs. Andurwhin (temple): you got stuck with a manifester who JUST leveled, and had 18 pp to spend...all on you. Without resistance magic, you were done for. Even so, he was faster than you. Grappling WAS your best option, but you really didn't include detailed tactics on how to achieve a grapple with a faster opponent. This was a near-impossible win for your character. I can speak on this specifically. When I saw the matchup and took a look over your saves, I was VERY glad that I had 18 PPs. Had I only had 10, I probably would have forfeited (OK, it was the 3rd fight in the cycle so maybe not, but I would definitely have bet against me winning). In a fair fight, you would have won. Now just you wait until I get some more levels... :D 1) Get friends. SauroGrenom (I think) mentioned somewhere recently that allies are almost mandatory for success in the CoCo, especially in the higher ECLs. He's totally right (though I wish he weren't). Does anyone else think there's a problem with this, and that perhaps something more should be done about it? Perhaps granting a surprise round (ECL+ECL-2 results in a CR equal to ECL+1, but I'm worried this might not do enough) and maybe reducing gold/consumables? As it stands right now, Leadership is really the most powerful feat you can take. I'd really dislike it if you had to take allies to compete.
McJarvis 09-20-06, 12:46 AM	rewards posted for my fight.
MindWandererB 09-20-06, 01:23 AM	Does anyone else think there's a problem with this, and that perhaps something more should be done about it?Yes, yes I do. And I've been arguing that way for months. Cat is dead-set on keeping something close to the current ally system, though. Since I hate the ally system (and the blackmarket system), I'm resigned to having mediocre success rates.
NiQil 09-20-06, 01:32 AM	I would tend to agree that allies are still too powerful. I've never run a character that had an ally that wasn't class granted (familiar, etc)...and the few that had class granted allies I didn't run very far. But I think I've managed to have a fair amount of success vs them. I've learned that, generally speaking, it seems to benefit me to kill the allies first. This sometimes sets you up for a quick death, but if you can survive that first onslaught and down a couple of allies, then the build that has the allies is suddenly at a very serious disadvantage. A good example of this is Book5's Tan, with his pack of dogs. When the dogs were allowed to surround you and flank/trip you, all he had to do was sit back and disarm you from reach. But if you managed to take down a dog or two fairly quickly, then he became seriously underpowered, because he really didn't have any other offensive capabilities. Granted, this was not an optimized ally character, but it illustrates my point. All in all, I would be very happy if the diplomacy/handle animal ally rules went away entirely, and we were left with class allies, leadership allies, and purchased allies. That seems more than enough to me. None of those three options are super-overpowered....it's when you start adding diplomacy/handle animal allies on top of them that things start to get bad. Just my two platinums (big spender LOL)
MindWandererB 09-20-06, 01:40 AM	I agree. How many TT games have any of you been in where a high skill value would net you allies? NPCs, maybe--but by their own free will and the DM's decision. Even Leadership requires DM permission (and the followers are often more burden than boon). I'd very much be in favor of eliminating all allies not expressly granted by a RAW rule of some kind.
King Uther 09-20-06, 01:41 AM	As one of the most experienced players, and having multiple successful builds, I can say from experience allies give a huge leg up for competing purposes. They are required if you want to have a large win streak. Even horses give a small advantage, especially in mobility. There are some other things which give a huge leg up for characters. Like 1 level in Cleric with the Magic Domain. Edit: Working on Inter-League #2 now.
King Uther 09-20-06, 03:13 AM	Karen vs Neidr and Varjo is up. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10132917&postcount=992) One side had all the luck, while the other looked good until the real fight began.
lonewolf 09-20-06, 03:34 AM	Karen vs Neidr and Varjo is up. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10132917&postcount=992) One side had all the luck, while the other looked good until the real fight began. Why does Varjo has concealment while beeing partly underground? I understand that she has cover and also a miss chance because the incorporeality, but why is there concealment??? More importantly how did Varjo and her shadow pinpoint Karen in round 13? Round 15 Varjo misses because of dodge. Where does the +10 attack bonus for Varjo come from when not flanking?
King Uther 09-20-06, 03:36 AM	Destra vs Farig and Sahdwosong miniedit is complete. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10122509&postcount=985) Changes? 1. No trip, so Farig makes a full-attack , which means the second hit takes less damage due to STR. This makes the wolf last an extra round. 2. Whirlwind attacks, but misses with everything 3. Destra uses Lightning on Farig, killing Farig in Round 6 with a full-on 18hp damaging bolt. Even if every wolf attack is negated Farig would die just from lightning on the round the wolf is finally killed. 4. The remainder of the fight stayed the same, as it didn't need to be changed
Usurpator 09-20-06, 03:43 AM	Why does Varjo has concealment while beeing partly underground? I understand that she has cover and also a miss chance because the incorporeality, but why is there concealment??? Actually, I don't understand that she has cover, I don't understand that she is 'partially underground'. Either you are in underground or you are not. No-one can be partially in one square and partially in another, that's not according to the rules. Allowing this is the same as saying that a regular person can move 'halfway' beyond a wall and thus attack and still get its cover. That is never allowed ingame, and I don't know why we should make beneficial exceptions for incorporeal creatures, they are difficult enough to fight as it is already.
King Uther 09-20-06, 03:50 AM	@lonewolf 1. Concealment comes from always being partially in the ground. But you never end up missing any attacks due to concealment, only due to incorporeality. It is in the RotG "There, Not There Part 4." 2. Varjo's tactics stated that incorporeal creatures can sense things within adjacent squares. I cannot find that anywhere, but even so Varjo rolled a 31 on the Listen check to pinpoint Karen when Karen is only 5ft away. 3. Varjo wanted to use Flyby, so basically Varjo charged every round(for the +10), as by that time Karen couldn't hit anything. 4. Partly underground has been allowed by many ghosts, as they can move freely between anything. Gaining cover that way while still being on the level surface square is allowed, and has always been as far as I can remember. If this is overturned I can make an edit for that. I think that answers everything. Incorporealness is weird.
TelinArtho 09-20-06, 12:12 PM	@MacBrea - couple of things about the fight - none of which are really fight-affecting - but ending affecting: 1. Kraegin can only use his rod of Extend once in this fight - and this is as I intended it - I did not want to extend the first Resist Energy (as it just doesn't make sense - it wouldn't likely last to next week anyway). 2. You need to specify the spells that Kraegin used in the rewards summary. 3. You need to note that Torrent was killed in week 1. Also you need to include that Kraegin "uses" Torrent in the Used Items list and that it costs him 100xp/141gp. Torrent is also an ally that affects rewards (CR3 vs MaxCa 6 = 12.5% penalty for Kraegin). Although I disagree when you have the huge centipedes switch targets to the hippogriff - since none of those attacks would have actually hit Daisy - I'm fine with the fight as it stands (other than the small point #1 above that would have been illegal anyway). If you could edit the rewards accordingly, I would be very appreciative.
Dracazar 09-20-06, 12:18 PM	Torrel Silvanus (Erithmu) and Kervan Sheharath (MindWandererB) vs Andurwin (Zelck) and Dracazar (Dracazar) is up. At round 1 Dracazar was caught in the Entangle spell It agree that it wasn't wrote to escape from the entangle spell but it is quite obvious and you played that event as nothing was happened! It is a big problem the entagle spell for a mage so the obvious reaction would be to move out of the area as soon as possible At round 2 Dracazar is entangled, it is very clear in the tactic to use Obscuring Mist as soon as entangled to save from ranged attacks You waited until round 5! to use the mist and you used the mist only after the mage was badly hit by an arrow I think that the mist should be up before that hit and this would have saved from 5 damages At round 2-8! Dracazar is entagled, he has to use Escape Artist to break free, he has low skill but he has also a Grease spell That scroll is also mentioned in the tactic (to escape from grapple), the mage knows that without that spell his chance will be really very low but you still didn't used the scroll! I'm a bit frustated to see my high Int mage played as a dumb one, sorry. I haven't read further the fight...
Macbrea 09-20-06, 12:24 PM	@MacBrea - couple of things about the fight - none of which are really fight-affecting - but ending affecting: 1. Kraegin can only use his rod of Extend once in this fight - and this is as I intended it - I did not want to extend the first Resist Energy (as it just doesn't make sense - it wouldn't likely last to next week anyway). 2. You need to specify the spells that Kraegin used in the rewards summary. 3. You need to note that Torrent was killed in week 1. Also you need to include that Kraegin "uses" Torrent in the Used Items list and that it costs him 100xp/141gp. Torrent is also an ally that affects rewards (CR3 vs MaxCa 6 = 12.5% penalty for Kraegin). Although I disagree when you have the huge centipedes switch targets to the hippogriff - since none of those attacks would have actually hit Daisy - I'm fine with the fight as it stands (other than the small point #1 above that would have been illegal anyway). If you could edit the rewards accordingly, I would be very appreciative. Ok, will fix. I switched targets because they probably weren't going to hit and the griffon was easily removed from play. I thought It would happen on one round but I was wrong.
TelinArtho 09-20-06, 01:01 PM	At round 1 Dracazar was caught in the Entangle spell It agree that it wasn't wrote to escape from the entangle spell but it is quite obvious and you played that event as nothing was happened! It is a big problem the entagle spell for a mage so the obvious reaction would be to move out of the area as soon as possible Well, you didn't give me priorities to work with. You were in the radius of entangle, but you were not entangled. However, even with a double move - you wouldn't have escaped the radius - so getting entangled on round 2 seems quite likely. In light of this - invisibility (your first round tactic) seemed like the best option to buy you some time. At round 2 Dracazar is entangled, it is very clear in the tactic to use Obscuring Mist as soon as entangled to save from ranged attacks You waited until round 5! to use the mist and you used the mist only after the mage was badly hit by an arrow I think that the mist should be up before that hit and this would have saved from 5 damages In round 2 - you are entangled. You say to use obscuring mist to protect you from ranged attacks. However - had you cast it in round 2 - you would have to recast it on the outer edges of the entangle (should you ever get there). By spending a few rounds before getting shot at, that increases your chances of only needing to cast obscuring mist once instead of several times. At round 2-8! Dracazar is entagled, he has to use Escape Artist to break free, he has low skill but he has also a Grease spell That scroll is also mentioned in the tactic (to escape from grapple), the mage knows that without that spell his chance will be really very low but you still didn't used the scroll! I admit I didn't see any mention of the grease spell - probably because I don't consider Entangled as being grappled. Its not a spell I often see used - so it certainly can escape my notice. I will adjust to try to use that spell. For the previous rounds of combat though - I think the way it is is fine - given that you have invisibility up and that you had little mentioned at all to handle the entangle. [EDIT] Actually, in looking it over, you'd be drawing and casting the grease spell in round 2 (when you are entangled). Since your first concentration check would fail - the grease spell would fail. If you really want me to edit it - I can - but it very likely will only result in switching out your use of a CL1 scroll of Mage Armor with a CL3 scroll of Grease.
Dracazar 09-20-06, 01:10 PM	The most reasonable tactic would have been to cast Obscuring Mist in round 2 (and with actual roll it should fail, I didn't checked). On round 3 the mage should have recast Obscuring mist and on round 4 he would have buffed with Armor and on round 5 he starts to escape casting Grease
TelinArtho 09-20-06, 01:22 PM	I disagree. Obscuring mist is only when you are entangled and when you are protecting yourself from ranged attacks. In round 2 - you did not have that - so you "should" be able to cast grease safely. Also - like I said - you didn't have an interruption clause in your tactics for what priority things fell under - so I would suggest including something of that sort in the future. As it stands, I had to make a judgement call. In round 1 you cast invisibility because that stood a better chance of helping you out in the short term. In round 2, you did not have ranged attacks - so under the edit - you would have tried to cast Grease - and you would have failed. Every time I get one of your characters in a fight, you seem to argue it to the nth degree and every time I'm able to point back at your tactics and show you that you need to be more specific. If you don't like the way that I improvise things - make sure your tactics take out the need to improvise.
Dracazar 09-20-06, 01:40 PM	In round 1 I see a reflex save vs Entagle so I assume I'm in the entagle area In round 2 I see another reflex save vs Entangle so I assume again I'm in the entagle area and also this time I'm entangled, so the priority is to save from ranged attacks (as wrote in the tactic) and cast the mist. When the mist is up priority is escape from grapple (better if having a decent AC) so the choice should be Mage Armor and then Grease or Grease + Mage Armor (but this choice is less smart). If in round 2, as you said, I'm not entagled then the choice should be to use Mage Armor as by tactic. About pitlording, I could tell the same thing, every time it seems that I have to be extremely precise about the tactic because the improvisation seems always to penalize. But this time there is little to improvise, there is contingency about entangle (use mist) and the grease scroll is there to be used (also mentioned in tactic).
TelinArtho 09-20-06, 01:48 PM	Contingencies: If entangled use Scroll of Obscuring mist to save from ranged attacks If grappled use the Grease Still scroll and escape If there is a Swarm use scroll of Protection from Evil (by RAW only Good may attack you) If Sinwa focus on me before Andurwin kill him then use Color Spray from memory to stun If needed, during the fight, Dracazar and Andurwin should speak to help each other What I see here is not a list of priorities - but a list of separate contingencies. Either I can read being entangled as not being grappled (as I did originally) or I can allow it to be the same (which I am willing to agree with). The area of confusion now is whether Obscuring Mist should take priority over Grease. In the situation, you are invisible, entangled, and not being subjected to ranged attacks at that moment. If we equate Obscuring Mist and Grease as both being important in an entangled situation - I now have to make a judgement call. Obscuring mist will allow your opponent a 50% miss chance with a fairly certain knowledge of where you are if he can see you through invisibility while Grease won't allow that miss chance - but might give you the mobility enough to escape the entangle area. Either one could be your success or failure. Since I have to make a call here - and given that you are invisible and still at considerable distance and not being subjected to ranged attacks at that moment - I chose grease. If by some fathom of curiosity, I chose to do Obscuring Mist first though, it would fail because of the concentration check and you would still be subjected to the critical in round 8.
lonewolf 09-20-06, 02:25 PM	@KU: the used expendables of Karen are incorrect. She didnt use a stone of Force screen, but manifested that herself.
Dracazar 09-20-06, 02:47 PM	What I see here is not a list of priorities - but a list of separate contingencies. Either I can read being entangled as not being grappled (as I did originally) or I can allow it to be the same (which I am willing to agree with). The area of confusion now is whether Obscuring Mist should take priority over Grease. In the situation, you are invisible, entangled, and not being subjected to ranged attacks at that moment. If we equate Obscuring Mist and Grease as both being important in an entangled situation - I now have to make a judgement call. Obscuring mist will allow your opponent a 50% miss chance with a fairly certain knowledge of where you are if he can see you through invisibility while Grease won't allow that miss chance - but might give you the mobility enough to escape the entangle area. Either one could be your success or failure. Since I have to make a call here - and given that you are invisible and still at considerable distance and not being subjected to ranged attacks at that moment - I chose grease. If by some fathom of curiosity, I chose to do Obscuring Mist first though, it would fail because of the concentration check and you would still be subjected to the critical in round 8. Again, there is nothing to improvise. The tactic says: If entangled use Scroll of Obscuring mist to save from ranged attacks It is not wrote: If ranged attacks while entangled use Scroll of Obscuring mist (and this seems your play). Even when I'm precise I'm misread, this is my frustation. I repeat the sequence should be: Mist in round 2, Mist again in round 3, Armor in round 4, and Grease in round 5
TheMagister 09-20-06, 03:13 PM	Woe to the questor who says ought against his questlord... @Telin - I happen to side with Dracazar here. There is obviously a language barrier here (most evident in his syntax); English is obviously not his first language. Would it have helped his tactic out and changed the INTENT of his tactic so much to have it say: If Dracazar is GOING to be subject to ranged attacks, use obscuring mist to prevent them. He has a really good point when he says that it is not a massive leap of logic for a 20-something intelligence mage to deduce that: 1) if he's entangled by druids, he should try to move out if he can (this [to me] is like the 5' step before casting a spell thing...the default decision for ANY character) AND 2) if he gets held by the entangle, he's probably going to get shot at because no right-thinking druid is going to enter the entangle and join him in melee. This is especially apparent given his tactics and the way they are written. I really empathize with him for the language barrier thing; it's hard enough to get across exactly what one should do in a given situation when you're highly proficient with the english language. A little leeway would not be totally out of the question, in my ever-so-humble opinion (no sarcasm). @Drac - he's the pitlord. After you've made your point once, it's generally only inflammatory to continue nagging away at it; you'll only make things worse. We've all been burned, and we'll all get burned again. Don't let this be so important to you that it ruins your day. Take a deep breath and be happy you are privileged enough to have a computer that allows you to play DnD with such excellent people from around the world. It's all about perspective, man. =) TM
TelinArtho 09-20-06, 03:52 PM	While I am in agreement that a certain amount of leeway is reasonable - there's still little to convince me to modify the fight in any case. If he had managed to cast the obscuring mist and the grease and escape the entangle field and managed to get within range to cast blindness before round 8, he might be able to start making headway. Bear in mind that his target for blindness doesn't want to get that close to him - so it is pretty likely that he wouldn't be able to get to that point in his tactics anyway. I do agree that he should be given leeway. What I don't see is a point to editing a fight that will probably cost me an hour or more to produce pretty much the same result barring some amazing rolls on the part of Dracazar. Let's quickly run through it giving the best possible scenario for him: Round 2: Cast Obscuring mist (fails concentration) Round 3: Recast Obscuring mist (needs a roll) Round 4: Grease (needs a roll) Round 5: Escape entangle and move from 3,3 to 5,5 (Escape artist +12 vs DC20) Round 6: Make reflex save and move from 5,5 to 9,9 (Reflex +3 vs DC15) Round 7: Make reflex save and move from 9,9 to 12,12 (Reflex +3 vs DC15) - Out of Entangle Field Round 8: Run towards Kervan from 12,12 to 12,36 - critical hit happens That's pretty much his best case scenario. If he fails one escape artist or reflex save - he can't even do the run.
TheMagister 09-20-06, 06:49 PM	...and that should be enough for Dracazar. I was just sayin... =) TM
Dracazar 09-20-06, 06:58 PM	Thank you TM it was that I was trying to say. Yes, english is not my best skill, but I thought it was quite clear this way. Sorry about the 'continue naggling' I was only a bit frustated because it is my third loss in a row and I'm not sad for the loss record but because every time the character losed in a very dumb way, not doing what I would have liked and all the time TelinArtho was the pitlord. But on the other side I know he is a skilled pitlord. I think I'll take a break...
Stormwind 09-21-06, 04:29 AM	@King Uther: Thanks for running the Varjo&Neidr vs Karen fight. Just a couple of small points: The fact that Varjo's ally was killed should be marked in Varjo's items used for the week, and the rewards for Karen are incorrect as you have applied the ally bonus to the total xp gained rather than just the xp gained from Varjo. Karens rewards should be 450xp(Neidr) + 517xp(Varjo) = 967xp and 1605gp.