Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sindorin 05-18-05, 02:04 PM	Please remember to BE NICE!!!
Pitlords 05-18-05, 06:20 PM	Pairings done Credit changes: +6: King Uther +2: Malither, Cerebus, Xanadu, Caterane +1: Cellar, Pittbull +0: Jindl, Sindorin -1: Huan, Kaigan, Tagg, Arty, Salrantol -2: Spash Important Notes (Please read) Please note that the new Arena is in effect from this week on! You have to write in your tactics in which position you want to start within your starting position box. The box itself will be rolled by the Pitlord. The new arena is "only" 50 ft high. The new ally proporsal of Celladweller is also in effect. Allies do suck xp and gp according to their relative ECL or CR. Please keep that in mind when calculating XP! That also means that you can bring in allies up to your ECL-4, with a minimum CR of 1. That means you cannot bring in a heavy warhorse until level 6! You may refund it for full price if you are below ECL 6. See FAQ: Allies or click on the gold pile icon on the Roster. Questlords, please post your maps in the Maps THread! The version without combatants please. Thanks. We have no pitlords left to take over. Please try to run your fights.
Jindl 05-18-05, 06:27 PM	Important Note: Please note that the new Arena is in effect from this week on! You have to write in your tactics in which position you want to start within your starting position box. The box itself will be rolled by the Pitlord. The new arena is "only" 50 ft high. How do we write the coordinates for the starting position if we don't know which box we are starting in?
Pitlords 05-18-05, 06:38 PM	Either try to describe it, or write down one position of a chosen starting position and the pitlord places you on the appropriate position if you end up somewhere else. I thought about adding numbers to the squares but that would just confuse people. Edit: Here's the link to the new Arena. Please read the box.
Sindorin 05-18-05, 06:40 PM	We'll just have to see how this works... I sense upcoming headaches. Edit: @Pitlords - I take it Spash PM'd you about the pause in Legion's quest? Is that why my credits evened out this week?
Salzorin 05-18-05, 06:44 PM	Best idea I think would be for the Pitlord to PM the gladiators telling them which box they started in. That'd save a lot of extra words in trying to describe where you want to start and instead let people just use the specific location.
Pitlords 05-18-05, 06:49 PM	@Salzorin: good idea. We see, there are some ways to solve this. @Sindorin: ok
spasheridan 05-18-05, 07:14 PM	Credit changes: -2: Spash Ach! THis canna be! I'm lording 0 fights but only Finael is active. My quest for Legion is on hold for 1 week (no credits) and my quest for Fyhir is 3 or 4 weeks overdue now (no credits). Where am I loosing creds?
Arstimis 05-18-05, 07:51 PM	Hakatri Abendstern (Beldin) vs. Zubair Suhaim (KerlanRayne) starting positions PMed Sorry I dont have links to the rolls, but the online roller I usually use isnt working right now. So I am using an online roller that doesnt really let me link rolls. Does anyone else know a good online roller thats working?
Jindl 05-18-05, 08:09 PM	@Arti - The purpose behind random starting boxes was so that your opponent doesn't know which box you are starting in... -Jindl
Salzorin 05-18-05, 08:20 PM	Yeah arti... you may want to reroll it and just PM the respective starting positions to your gladiators...
Kaigan 05-18-05, 08:23 PM	@Caterane, Pitlords: Why do I get -1 credits this week? I have aeuluath and Rayos active. and I'm pitlording one fight, so I should be getting +1 credits. Also I asked for Eiletha to be active, and she isn't.
Arstimis 05-18-05, 08:36 PM	@Arti - The purpose behind random starting boxes was so that your opponent doesn't know which box you are starting in... -JindlOH ya, haha, forgot about the PM thing, sorry about that, im rerolling
Jindl 05-18-05, 11:59 PM	@cellar - Tactics PM'd for JotHF.
cellardweller 05-19-05, 12:35 AM	The new ally proporsal of Celladweller is also in effect. Allies do suck xp and gp according to their relative ECL or CR. Please keep that in mind when calculating XP! That also means that you can bring in allies up to your ECL-4, with a minimum CR of 1. That means you cannot bring in a heavy warhorse until level 6! You may refund it for full price if you are below ECL 6. See FAQ: Allies or click on the gold pile icon on the Roster. I did promise to have have a calculator work out the xp etc up already, but I haven't been getting back from work till after 10pm for the last few nights :(. I can't do it tonight because it is international Lucas day, but hopefully I can finish it by Friday Morning GMT when the first before the first few fights are posted.
Sindorin 05-19-05, 02:16 AM	Initiative for Lance vs. Elder: Elder Initiative (1d20=11) (http://invisiblecastle.com/find.py?id=91327) = "11"+ ?? Lance Initiative (1d20=14) (http://invisiblecastle.com/find.py?id=91329) = "14" + ?? Your starting locations have been sent via PM.
Salrantol 05-19-05, 03:46 AM	@Caterane, Pitlords: Why do I get -1 credits this week? I have aeuluath and Rayos active. and I'm pitlording one fight, so I should be getting +1 credits. Also I asked for Eiletha to be active, and she isn't. Yeah, I don't think it's quite right for those who had characters *listed* as active, but that aren't participating in fights due to pitlord shortage should be charged credits for those fights they don't get.
Pittbull 05-19-05, 05:20 AM	@Cerebus: Hagrid's tactic has been sent by PM. The ONLINE-SRD (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/home.html) has perfromance-problems. Does anybody have another one?
KerlanRayne 05-19-05, 05:32 AM	Hakatri Abendstern (Beldin) vs. Zubair Suhaim (KerlanRayne)My opponent has a Heavy Warhorse at level 5. The new ally proporsal of Celladweller is also in effect. Allies do suck xp and gp according to their relative ECL or CR. Please keep that in mind when calculating XP! That also means that you can bring in allies up to your ECL-4, with a minimum CR of 1. That means you cannot bring in a heavy warhorse until level 6! You may refund it for full price if you are below ECL 6. See FAQ: Allies or click on the gold pile icon on the Roster.So what now? KerlanRayne
Pitlords 05-19-05, 05:57 AM	I'm lording 0 fights but only Finael is active. My quest for Legion is on hold for 1 week (no credits) and my quest for Fyhir is 3 or 4 weeks overdue now (no credits). Where am I loosing creds? Ok. I counted the quest. Sorry, I've been really tired yesterday and did the pairings with one eye open. @Caterane, Pitlords: Why do I get -1 credits this week? I have aeuluath and Rayos active. and I'm pitlording one fight, so I should be getting +1 credits. Also I asked for Eiletha to be active, and she isn't. I slipped in the line. Sorry. Corrected. Eiletha hasn't been on the Roster. I removed her when you said you left, and as requested put only Aeulath and Rayos back after you decided to stay. Fortunately, Enoch the Prophet (Salrantol) shared the same fate, so I will pair you up. Question: which of your character do you want me to re-add to the Roster? Yeah, I don't think it's quite right for those who had characters *listed* as active, but that aren't participating in fights due to pitlord shortage should be charged credits for those fights they don't get. Characters that are listed active but do not fight never count against your credits or # of PCs. Enoch wasn't on the roster so I couldn't pair him. However, ...see above. The ONLINE-SRD has perfromance-problems. Does anybody have another one? Use Sovelior's SRD (http://www.geocities.com/sovelior/srd/home.html) instead. My opponent has a Heavy Warhorse at level 5. So what now? He may either enter without it or switch it to Light Warhorse for this fight. New Fights: Indri'ynar (Caterane) goes on a miniquest: Megrim Lord Enoch (Salrantol) vs Eiletha (Kaigan): Caterane has been added to the Roster. Caterane+0, Megrim Lord+1°, Kaigan-1°
Pittbull 05-19-05, 10:00 AM	Evan Alerian Tactics Submitted -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yeah, tactis for Evan Alerian submitted and such. May the best build win. @Anda: Wrong thread, mate! ;) @Cat: Received your tactic!
Kaigan 05-19-05, 10:01 AM	@Cat: I should still have only +0 credits. 3 gladiators active, pitlording 1 fight.
Jindl 05-19-05, 11:25 AM	Starting positions have been PM'd to Kaigan and Huan for Aeiou and Nell, respectively.
Salrantol 05-19-05, 02:31 PM	@Cat: I should still have only +0 credits. 3 gladiators active, pitlording 1 fight. Ditto.
Megrim_Lord 05-19-05, 03:02 PM	Cat, i sent you Trokk's tactics via PM, I know you prefer email, but as I've said in the past it really isn't an option, sorry
Caterane 05-19-05, 03:04 PM	@Kaigan: You got +0 this week. @Megrim: Received. What about the miniquest?
Megrim_Lord 05-19-05, 03:08 PM	@Kaigan: You got +0 this week. @Megrim: Received. What about the miniquest? I'll be working on it tonight, should be ready by tomorrow, saturday at the latest
Caterane 05-19-05, 03:16 PM	:cool:
Malither76 05-19-05, 04:10 PM	Hey Cat, I emailed Gareths tactics to you, If you don't get them I can PM them let me know
Caterane 05-19-05, 04:16 PM	Hey Cat, I emailed Gareths tactics to you, If you don't get them I can PM them let me know I did not receive them. Please make sure you change (at) to @
Malither76 05-19-05, 04:30 PM	yeah I did that you still didn't get them huh, can I PM them to you
Salrantol 05-19-05, 04:52 PM	@Malither76: Tactics and addendum sent for Meinrad the Many-Fisted via PM.
Malither76 05-19-05, 05:03 PM	@salrantrol got them
King Uther 05-19-05, 05:09 PM	@ Cerebus Tactics for Virgo PMed @xanadu Tactics for Cyalin will be PMed once I get all my intros done.
Malither76 05-19-05, 05:50 PM	Cat, I pm'ed Gareth's tactics sorry I couldn't get the email thing to work
Caterane 05-19-05, 06:05 PM	Probably ended up in my SPAM filter. I hope that's no indicator for the quality of your tactic :D
xanadu 05-19-05, 06:16 PM	Tagg - Your pm box is over quota so I emailed Xyanthraxia's tactics
King Uther 05-19-05, 06:18 PM	@xanadu Tactics for Cyalin Orndrill have been PMed @all Questees check your quest often because I'll respond to you often. Also, Saturday night would be a wonderful time to do much of the work for me.
Cerebus13 05-19-05, 08:22 PM	@Malither: Tactics sent for Guts via email. @King Uther, Andarious, Pittbull: Tactics all received. @Sunwolf: Still waiting on tactics.
Caterane 05-19-05, 08:27 PM	First fight in the new arena. I have to say it was fun, and I had two really cool characters bashing at each other. Only one could win. Trokk vs Gareth
Cerebus13 05-19-05, 09:01 PM	@Caterane Is there any chance of someone updating the LOS program for the CoCo? Listed here: http://www.sebastian-sutor.de/coco/coco.html I'd give it a shot depending on what it is coded with...but I can't tell by just looking at the site. Edit: Was able to figure out what drives this little web app...but unfortunately it is a .dll (aptly named coco.dll even :P). So unless I have some sorta documentation for it there is little I can do :(.
Megrim_Lord 05-19-05, 09:35 PM	First fight in the new arena. I have to say it was fun, and I had two really cool characters bashing at each other. Only one could win. Trokk vs Gareth the next time I try new tactics, kick me
Malither76 05-19-05, 10:12 PM	That was a fun fight, Crit on first hit though thank god I used the vigor stone, to all gladiator's I have got all tactics will be running fights soon, next day probably
Sunwolf 05-19-05, 10:31 PM	@Malither: Tactics sent for Guts via email. @King Uther, Andarious, Pittbull: Tactics all received. @Sunwolf: Still waiting on tactics. Tactics for Telveran sent by PM
Cerebus13 05-19-05, 10:50 PM	Tactics for Telveran sent by PMgot em!
Huan 05-19-05, 11:04 PM	@Caterane Tactics recieved for Mer-Man, thank you. To my pitlords, my tactics will be coming in tomorrow midday-ish.
Sunwolf 05-19-05, 11:33 PM	@Xanadu -- tactics for Brilf sent by PM
Malither76 05-20-05, 12:08 AM	Solmund VS Guts is up please check out
Cerebus13 05-20-05, 01:07 AM	Evan vs Hagrid (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6226218&postcount=1563) is done. Look it over and if anything doesn't jive let me know...I'll look at it tomorrow as I've gotta sleep for work now.
Pittbull 05-20-05, 03:35 AM	Whow! What a quick post! Thanks a lot, I found nothing!
Caterane 05-20-05, 07:12 AM	@Cerebus: I have already asked the creator of this program and he is currently working on it. @Megrim: If I may give you an advise: you are using way too many ressources. You have spent 3300 gp of one-shot items, and I didn't even activate your whip token and your two crawling tattoos which would sum up to another 1500 gp. You need some permanent items else you will be at a disadvantage at higher levels. Wizards will soon have stoneskin so you would need adamantine, and a better way to detect invisible beings than 1500 gp touchsight tattoos would also be good (see "Hand of Glory", DMG p258, for example, the 1 gp version: Cellardweller's bag of flour; can also kill Crystal Shard Artifacts ;) ).
Cerebus13 05-20-05, 09:17 AM	@Cerebus: I have already asked the creator of this program and he is currently working on it.Please thank him for me and if he needs any help I could try to lend a hand as well :). I find this tool to be very very helpful for keeping track of gladiator locations and LOS issues.
Sunwolf 05-20-05, 09:42 AM	Question about the dissolving weapon power: As far as I can tell, this is a power that requires a standard action to activiate, However, I keep seeing it used as an immediate or swift action. Last example is Gareth vs Trokk fight. Which is it?
Pittbull 05-20-05, 09:47 AM	Dissolving Weapon Psychometabolism [Acid] Level: Psychic warrior 2 Display: Visual Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: One held weapon; see text Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: None Power Resistance: No Power Points: 3 As dissolving touch, except your weapon is charged with acid until you make a successful attack. You have to activate it with a standard action and then it keeps "loaded" until the next successful attack or you drop the weapon (I am not sure about the dropping!). So no swift or immediate action.
Malither76 05-20-05, 01:50 PM	well the text of the power says it charges the weapon until it is discharged, nothing about dropping it, so it is almost like a spell stored weapon it then becomes a prebuff, thats how Gareth uses it, I checked with Cat before starting to use it in this way and he said it was cool. Now I have the power myself so I don't have to blow the money on powerstones anymore :)
Jindl 05-20-05, 01:52 PM	@Megrim Lord / Caterane - There's a small error in Indri's quest. Indri just cast a divine scroll: protection from evil. The problem is that the spell has the [Good] descriptor. Indri is an evil aligned cleric and cannot cast spells with the [Good] descriptor. -Jindl
Jindl 05-20-05, 02:10 PM	@Sindorin - Tactics sent for the Elder. @cellar - One benefit to playing a bard is that your opponents don't write tactics against bards very often ... which in turn makes it really difficult to write good tactics against a bard. -Jindl
Sindorin 05-20-05, 02:23 PM	@ Jindl - Tactics received. Still waiting on tactics for Lance. I'll have a decent amount of time on Monday to run it, but get them in on time please. Thanks.
Caterane 05-20-05, 03:25 PM	@Jindl: Acknowledged. Btw: (SR 17 +2 vs SR ??, pass. Will 10 +?? vs DC 17 +4 greater psionic endowment, fails. Damage = 2d10 = 15 pts.) Greater Endowment, only +2
Sindorin 05-20-05, 03:41 PM	Also, unless I am blind and simply didn't see a link to them, the rolls for such quests should be used with an online roller.
Jindl 05-20-05, 03:45 PM	@Jindl: Acknowledged. Btw: Greater Endowment, only +2 Thanks!
Caterane 05-20-05, 03:45 PM	@King Uther: None of your images work. Can you please check on that? @Jindl: Nothing to thank me. Always enjoying pointing out mistakes you make. :D Because that happens so rarely
Jindl 05-20-05, 03:46 PM	Also, unless I am blind and simply didn't see a link to them, the rolls for such quests should be used with an online roller. I was using Vacuum Elemental, until it crashed. I've been finishing up the quest with my own dice since then.
Megrim_Lord 05-20-05, 03:46 PM	Tagg, clear out your pm box or I'll skin you alive :D
Sindorin 05-20-05, 03:47 PM	I believe photobucket is down for the moment... Edit: never mind, they're still up, they're just running really really slow.
Caterane 05-20-05, 03:48 PM	@Megrim: Do you think there's space for a link to the CoCo in your sig? :) @Sindorin: No they are all there in the Maps thread (although I nearly got a shock before I could open the maps thread). Perhaps I should load them onto my homepage.
Sindorin 05-20-05, 03:50 PM	I was using Vacuum Elemental, until it crashed. I've been finishing up the quest with my own dice since then. Invisible Castle still works, and I'm pretty sure it says in the About Quests section that the questlord makes all rolls and links them through an online roller...
Megrim_Lord 05-20-05, 03:55 PM	@Megrim: Do you think there's space for a link to the CoCo in your sig? :) theres space for a dictionary in my sig....
Salrantol 05-20-05, 04:01 PM	@Caterane: Tactics for Enoch the Prophet sent via email.
Megrim_Lord 05-20-05, 04:02 PM	big enough?
Caterane 05-20-05, 08:55 PM	Eiletha vs Enoch is finished @Megrim: Perfect
Huan 05-20-05, 10:00 PM	@Kaigan Tactics for Rayos received, thank you. I'll do the fight tomorrow morning. @Jindl,Cellardweller Tactics for Nell and Luken have been PMed.
Cerebus13 05-20-05, 11:25 PM	@All Important initiative question having to do with readied actions: If A's readied action triggers and his initiative count changes to match B's....what happens if their initiative modifiers are the same? Should I reroll initiative as with other initiative ties?Nevermind...answered the question myself by reading the rest of the Ready action section of the SRD. Shouldn't be running fights so late at night.
xanadu 05-21-05, 01:30 AM	Still waiting on tactics for Arthemus Arctus and Finael Owlguide .
Sindorin 05-21-05, 03:02 AM	I've received tactics for both Lance and the Elder. I'm not sure if I'll have time Saturday or Sunday to run it, but I'll definitely have time on Monday to run it.
Arstimis 05-21-05, 10:12 AM	Still waiting on tactics for Arthemus Arctus and Finael Owlguide .Tactics sent via PM
TaggIIV 05-21-05, 11:41 AM	Heheh. Ok, PM box clearedMegrim. Also, working on tactics they will be sent out today.
Zerone 05-21-05, 12:17 PM	Greevus (Cerebus13) vs Rin Szen, Mother of Jin (Zerone): TaggIIV [Extended] If this fight isn't finished by Sunday night, can some one else take it? How many weeks can a fight be Extended before it is dissolved/reassigned? *•. Z
Sindorin 05-21-05, 12:30 PM	@Jindl - PM sent regarding your tactics... clumsy me. :rolleyes:
Arstimis 05-21-05, 12:45 PM	Greevus (Cerebus13) vs Rin Szen, Mother of Jin (Zerone): TaggIIV [Extended] If this fight isn't finished by Sunday night, can some one else take it? How many weeks can a fight be Extended before it is dissolved/reassigned? *•. ZWhat number week is this on? One of mine went on a month before it got finished
Cerebus13 05-21-05, 12:50 PM	What number week is this on? One of mine went on a month before it got finished2nd week for this fight so far. ---- Virgo vs Telveran (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6236111) is up. A lot of shooting and spot checks involved. Let me know if anything is wrong with the fight and I'll fix it up.
Arstimis 05-21-05, 05:49 PM	Im really sorry I am going to have to do this. Everytime I seem to get free time to be able to pitlord agiain, something comes up here So, is there anyone that would be able to take my fight for me? Sorry again
TaggIIV 05-21-05, 06:52 PM	@Zerone: It was only one week extended. That was a fluke, it will be done this week dont worry. Also recieved tactics from Megrim although I wasn't aware I was pitlording another fight. >_>
TaggIIV 05-21-05, 10:26 PM	All tactics have been sent out. Will finish Rin vs Greevus tomorrow, will run Salvador and Xyanthraxia Monday.
xanadu 05-22-05, 01:10 AM	2 questions. 1) If a mounted warrior successfully breaks free of a grapple, can his horse make a double move? 2) Must one make an attack roll rather than a grapple check for something like stunning fist and psionic weapon?
Malither76 05-22-05, 02:02 AM	@xandue, the horse can only make a single move, you can only do a double move if you are charging or if you spend both your move and standard action to do so, standard action was already spent breaking the grapple. A monk can use stunning fist while grappled b/c he is punching kicking whatever in the grapple, an opposed grapple roll is an attack roll just another type, psionic weapon can also be used this way through a gauntlet or spiked gauntlet
Salrantol 05-22-05, 08:45 AM	@Caterane: "the cleric that cannot heal" has 2 casts of cure minor wounds listed in his spells prepared section for just such occasions. Also, in round 12, the first two attacks should have been touch attacks for the produce flame that still had two attacks left, so they should have hit.
xanadu 05-22-05, 12:17 PM	@xandue, the horse can only make a single move, you can only do a double move if you are charging or if you spend both your move and standard action to do so, standard action was already spent breaking the grapple. I thought it was this way but one can normally have there horse double move and still fire a bow or cast a spell.
cellardweller 05-22-05, 12:49 PM	The standard action must take place either before or after a single move or in the middle of a double move. Because the they have to break the grapple first, the horse can subsequently make only a single move.
Sindorin 05-22-05, 01:07 PM	Erm, why is Ceres shown in the roster as questing? It has been like this for two weeks but I didn't say anything about it...
Malither76 05-22-05, 10:50 PM	@xandue, Rules of the Game on Wizards main site says that when you escape a grapple while you are still mounted but your opponent is not on your mount your mount is allowd a single move away, Normally a mount can do double moves as a regular move, Sorry I missworded my last statement, it takes your move action to direct your mount, but your mount can still do a move/move, or a move/attack so it gets a move and standard action that it will do as you direct it, so yes a mount can normally do double move while you take a standard action, but not after escaping a grapple.
Sunwolf 05-23-05, 09:22 AM	@ Cerberus On the Televeran vs Viggo fight. Good job. Very close fight. Viggo also used a powerstone of Vigor ML3. Sunwolf.
Caterane 05-23-05, 10:08 AM	@Caterane: "the cleric that cannot heal" has 2 casts of cure minor wounds listed in his spells prepared section for just such occasions. Also, in round 12, the first two attacks should have been touch attacks for the produce flame that still had two attacks left, so they should have hit. Right. Here's the rerun. Enoch won this time.
Pitlords 05-23-05, 10:19 AM	@Kaigan: With the change in outcome, Eiletha would have to be unleveled to ECL 3. However, I realize that this is a frustrating work and Eiletha would level in any case after the next pairings, win or lose. So what we're going to do is to keep Eiletha at ECL 4, and you gain 350 XP less in your next (ECL 4) fight.
Kaigan 05-23-05, 12:32 PM	Okay, sounds good, but I just want to know why the trog's attacks are touch attacks? Edit: And is he even allowed to alter self into a trog? Alter self says that you can assume a form of HD equal to your caster level. A trog has 2 hd, however is also +2LA, does the LA factor into the alter self spell? Edit 2: Janelle vs. Nyph is up, please check for errors, thanks.
Jindl 05-23-05, 01:58 PM	Okay, sounds good, but I just want to know why the trog's attacks are touch attacks? Edit: And is he even allowed to alter self into a trog? Alter self says that you can assume a form of HD equal to your caster level. A trog has 2 hd, however is also +2LA, does the LA factor into the alter self spell? Edit 2: Janelle vs. Nyph is up, please check for errors, thanks. The trog is using produce flame to attack, which is why they are touch attacks and why they deal 1d6+3 fire damage. Alter self is based purely on type and HD. LA is not a factor. There is an error in Nyph's xp award. -Jindl
Malither76 05-23-05, 02:27 PM	Meinrad VS Brogan is up
Kaigan 05-23-05, 04:39 PM	The trog is using produce flame to attack, which is why they are touch attacks and why they deal 1d6+3 fire damage. Here is the description of Produce Flame. Produce Flame Evocation [Fire] Level: Drd 1, Fire 2 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: 0 ft. Effect: Flame in your palm Duration: 1 min./level (D) Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: Yes Flames as bright as a torch appear in your open hand. The flames harm neither you nor your equipment. In addition to providing illumination, the flames can be hurled or used to touch enemies. You can strike an opponent with a melee touch attack, dealing fire damage equal to 1d6 +1 point per caster level (maximum +5). Alternatively, you can hurl the flames up to 120 feet as a thrown weapon. When doing so, you attack with a ranged touch attack (with no range penalty) and deal the same damage as with the melee attack. No sooner do you hurl the flames than a new set appears in your hand. Each attack you make reduces the remaining duration by 1 minute. If an attack reduces the remaining duration to 0 minutes or less, the spell ends after the attack resolves. This spell does not function underwater. I've bolded the relevant parts. According to this, and from what I read, it says one hand, not both. So it would be a melee touch attack for one hand. with the flame. So for a trog with produce flame it would be flaming claw: touch attack, claw: normal attack, bite: normal attack. Right? Alter self is based purely on type and HD. LA is not a factor. Okay, thanks. There is an error in Nyph's xp award. Fixed
TaggIIV 05-23-05, 05:12 PM	@Kaigan: When was the arena ceiling lowered >100 feet? Also, I'm working on Rin and Greevus right now it will be done within the hour. However there is a fair chance I wont get to my other fight, if theres anyone with spare time that could take it off my hands that would probably be best
Salrantol 05-23-05, 05:47 PM	@Malither76: How does Meinrad finish off Brogan? (as in, how many bolts do I need to mark off my character sheet) Can he coup de grace him for a 2-bolt kill? (as in, is an enlarged Meinrad [who is normally 6'6" and now has 10ft. reach] "adjacent to" a 20ft. high levitating Brogan, or is he even close enough to use an unarmed strike for only 1 bolt? Or does he need to fire them normally against his AC 1 (-5 dex, -4 prone) opponent, and if so, how many did he use? Thanks again for running the fight.
Malither76 05-23-05, 07:36 PM	woops sorry I forgot to put that usage in the fight result, yes it did cost you another bolt, according to the DMG, I think thats were its at anyways, A large character can reach to about 18' high so I just had you shoot him again so yes add 2 bolts to your usage I will edit the fight saying this too. Sorry
Kaigan 05-23-05, 07:57 PM	@Kaigan: When was the arena ceiling lowered >100 feet? Also, I'm working on Rin and Greevus right now it will be done within the hour. However there is a fair chance I wont get to my other fight, if theres anyone with spare time that could take it off my hands that would probably be best When the new arena was created, the ceiling was lowered to 50 ft. Read the description in the Characters Thread
Huan 05-23-05, 11:28 PM	Bare-bones of Mer-Man vs Rayos (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6255770) is up. Short version: Ended unexpectedly swiftly... speed made all the difference, it seems. (And I know of late I have been a rather bad Pitlord for turning in fights late... meh, going to fix THAT this week, rest assured).
TaggIIV 05-23-05, 11:32 PM	Rejoice (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6207825&postcount=1559) Rin vs Greevus finally finished, Sorry for delay. However I would like someone to check it over, especially the end. edit: @Huan I think its possible to attack adjacent foes with a reach weapon while mounted. From Rules of the Game all About Mounts if I remember correctly the rider can pick any square his mount occupies as the square he attacks from.
Salrantol 05-23-05, 11:50 PM	Griff Mythal vs. The Gatekeeper (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6255931&postcount=1572) is up!
Cerebus13 05-23-05, 11:58 PM	-Greevus would have provoked an AoO from the horse in round 6, but it would have missed if rolls were maintained. -Another AoO from horse in round 7, also misses. -Round 11's new attack would have resulted in Greevus being reduced to 0 hps...so in order for him to be able to CdG the next round he would have to 5' step away and cast a Cure Minor wounds or something to raise him above 0. -Round 12 if the horse misses his attack (which you'll have to roll a new one) Greevus can use a full round action to CdG and kill him. (CdGs finish in the same round they're started). Also...Rin used the spell Mount which summons an untrained light horse. In order to control an untrained horse in battle you have to spend a move action and make a DC 20 Ride check or you waste the whole round controlling it. I'm not sure WHEN he should have been making these checks, but once he engaged Greevus in battle then the horse would have become skittish and required move actions to calm it. I'm not sure if you want to amend the fight to include these ride checks (which Rin will almost always fail....and eventually dismount I imagine to avoid wasting time) but the CdG playing out in the end should be looked at to see if Greevus can avoid the horse for one more round.
cellardweller 05-24-05, 01:29 AM	Sindorin, Lance can only use 3 bardic music attempts/fight. He should still have all his buffs to fight with.
King Uther 05-24-05, 02:59 AM	My summon poofed out too early. He should've gotten attacks in every round up until round 8. It may not matter, but there is a definite chance, especially with 6 attacks.
Sindorin 05-24-05, 03:23 AM	Sindorin, Lance can only use 3 bardic music attempts/fight. He should still have all his buffs to fight with. Hmm... interesting. I didn't think that Suggestion counted against the daily limit. Lance used Fascination once against two subjects, and it was maintainted until the end of the caster level/round limit... It seemed perfectly clear to me.
Sindorin 05-24-05, 03:28 AM	I know it is bad form on my part, but despite the fact that I picked up Arstimis' fight, I won't be able to get to it until tomorrow. I will definitely have it up in plenty of time for readying, though. Sorry Beldin and KR!
cellardweller 05-24-05, 05:31 AM	Hmm... interesting. I didn't think that Suggestion counted against the daily limit. Lance used Fascination once against two subjects, and it was maintainted until the end of the caster level/round limit... It seemed perfectly clear to me. Wow you're right! Color my pleased, that's a huge boost for Lance's power level.
Jindl 05-24-05, 08:35 AM	@Sindorin- There is a bit of an error: Lance moves to (3,13) and uses fascinate (Lance Perform Check (1d20+14=28) = 28; Elder Will Save (1d20+10=26) = 26 vs. DC 28, fails, fascinated; Bubo Will Save (1d20+8=13) = 13 vs. DC 28, fails, fascinated) Fascinate is an enchantment effect, so the Elder (who is an elf) should have a +2 racial bonus against it. The Elder also manifested defensive precognition, granting a +1 insight bonus on saves. His total Will save modifier should have been +13 against fascinate, which I think passes. Also, I'm not sure but I think the fact that the pc's are in the middle of combat may make using the fascinate bardic music ability impossible. From the description: "The distraction of nearby combat or other dangers prevents the ability from working..." and "Any obvious threat, such as someone drawing a weapon, casting a spell, or aiming a ranged weapon at the target, automatically breaks the effect." I don't think combat gets much nearer than when you have already rolled initiative and are in the middle of it. And Lance has already demonstrated that he is an obvious threat with his previous attack on the Elder (when he cast entangle). -Jindl
TaggIIV 05-24-05, 08:38 AM	Griff Mythal vs. The Gatekeeper (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6255931&postcount=1572) is up! How come Gatekeeper didnt bring his horse into the fight like it was mentioned in tactics? Im not certain but I think the enhanced movement would have put him outside of the short Sleep range. In addition, Im not sure if its possible to move in the middle of casting a spell? Furthermore, readied actions trigger during their opponent's turn, and the move would not have occupied the Gatekeeper's next turn. He would have been able to move even further away, about 60, or substantially more if riding the horse. Definitely enough to escape the spell, even if Griff is able to single move before finishing the spell. @Greevus: I rolled a d20, result was a 2. CDG would have gone through. I'll look into the fixing the fight more detailedly after I get home from school.. which I should probably be leaving for.. right.. about... now.. >_>
Jindl 05-24-05, 08:39 AM	@Sindorin - I noticed another error: Lance makes the same suggestion to the Elder to drop his scroll case and Energy stun it (Elder Will Save (1d20+12=14) = 14 vs. DC 16, fails, compelled). The Elder slowly drops his scroll case (free action), then drops his power stone pouch (free action), then steps 5’ to (22,3) (free action) and manifests a 4 pp sonic Energy Stun at (22,4) Sonic Damage (4d6-4=10) = 10 sonic damage to every scroll and stone at (22,4), destroying all of them (standard action). The Elder doesn't have a scroll case or a powerstone pouch. What he has is scrolls and powerstones stuffed into the multitude of pockets in his explorer's outfit (imagine the befuddled old mage with scrolls peeking out of every pocket...) So Lance's suggest would likely be more along the lines of "drop all your scrolls and powerstones into a pile and then blast them with energy stun." However, I think this will take a lot longer than the remaining 6 rounds of duration on the fascinate effect, since its a move + free action to draw/drop each item. -Jindl
Salrantol 05-24-05, 08:43 AM	How come Gatekeeper didnt bring his horse into the fight like it was mentioned in tactics? Im not certain but I think the enhanced movement would have put him outside of the short Sleep range. Isn't it obvious? I'm an idiot, that's why! I'll fix it.
cellardweller 05-24-05, 08:47 AM	Suggestion has a duration of 1 hr/lvl, its duration isn't dependent on fascinate. I'm happy to be corrected though - despite all my preconceptions, I beginning to believe bards are broken. Fascinate has a near unbeatable DC (especially if you start staking +perform items on) and barring protections like mind blank, it is nigh impossible to save against all the suggestions (whose DC's scale with level) that could during the period of fascination. All of this is compounded by the open ended nature of the suggestion spell.
Jindl 05-24-05, 08:54 AM	Suggestion has a duration of 1 hr/lvl, its duration isn't dependent on fascinate. I'm happy to be corrected though - despite all my preconceptions, I beginning to believe bards are broken. Fascinate has a near unbeatable DC (especially if you start staking +perform items on) and barring protections like mind blank, it is nigh impossible to save against all the suggestions (whose DC's scale with level) that could during the period of fascination. All of this is compounded by the open ended nature of the suggestion spell. Actually, there is a simple way to avoid the effect ... I just didn't think of it (because Lance is Neutral). But if you get a protection from <alignment> effect, it will prevent all of these Enchantment (Compulsion), Mind-affecting abilities. I do think there is a problem with using Fascinate within a combat setting. And I'm not sure bard's are supposed to be able to attempt multiple suggestions to the same creature during the same fascinate effect. The wording doesn't expressly forbid it, but the suggestion ability is written to infer that you can only "make a suggestion (as the spell) to a creature that he has already fascinated (see above)." That's a singular suggestion attempt. But I do give you mad props for coming up with an overpowered bard strategy (3 words I never thought I'd use together). -Jindl
Zerone 05-24-05, 09:04 AM	(snip)-Greevus would have provoked an AoO from the horse in round 6, but it would have missed if rolls were maintained. -Another AoO from horse in round 7, also misses...(snip) All very good suggestions, thanks. I think I found a few more... :) Round 9: Laurze has no action. I can't figure out why she didn't get a Full Attack Action. Also, Greevus needs to make a DC 14 Concentration Check (10, +5/2 damage, +2 Spell Level) or fail to cast his Hold Person due to the Acid Arrow Damage. Round 10: Rin should get her 1st Hold reroll here, as it is stated in the PHB: on my turn I get another reroll. Making Round 11 a second reroll. Laurze should be getting a Full Attack, as she'd be 5' away from Greevus from round 9. I think that's it. If anyone wants to look it over, it'd be welcome. :D Rin vs. Greevus (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6207825&postcount=1559) *•. Z Edited with Jindl's correction.
Jindl 05-24-05, 09:11 AM	Round 9: Laurze has no action. I can't figure out why she didn't get a Full Attack Action. Also, Greevus needs to make a DC 15 Concentration Check (10 + 5 damage) or fail to cast his Hold Person due to the Acid Arrow Damage. Actually, the DC is 10 plus half the continuing damage, plus the spell level of the spell you are attempting to cast = DC 14 (10 +5/2 +2).
cellardweller 05-24-05, 09:12 AM	Actually, there is a simple way to avoid the effect ... I just didn't think of it (because Lance is Neutral). But if you get a protection from <alignment> effect, it will prevent all of these Enchantment (Compulsion), Mind-affecting abilities. I have now switched Lance to Chaotic-Neutral like he was back in the old gladius. I was going for strong, not broken. I do think there is a problem with using Fascinate within a combat setting. And I'm not sure bard's are supposed to be able to attempt multiple suggestions to the same creature during the same fascinate effect. The wording doesn't expressly forbid it, but the suggestion ability is written to infer that you can only "make a suggestion (as the spell) to a creature that he has already fascinated (see above)." That's a singular suggestion attempt. I'll buy that. Though with L/3 facinates of arbitrarily high DC, I don't know if thats enough to hold a true neutral bard in check. But I do give you mad props for coming up with an overpowered bard strategy (3 words I never thought I'd use together). Wait till you see what I else I have up my sleeve :schemes:.
Jindl 05-24-05, 09:32 AM	@Sindorin- Fascinate is an enchantment effect, so the Elder (who is an elf) should have a +2 racial bonus against it. The Elder also manifested defensive precognition, granting a +1 insight bonus on saves. His total Will save modifier should have been +13 against fascinate, which I think passes. I forgot that the Elder had already polymorphed into an Annis Hag at this time. He loses his racial bonus against enchantments as part of the polymorph. He would fail the save, by 1. However, my argument against the use of fascinate is even stronger because ... Also, I'm not sure but I think the fact that the pc's are in the middle of combat may make using the fascinate bardic music ability impossible. From the description: "The distraction of nearby combat or other dangers prevents the ability from working..." and "Any obvious threat, such as someone drawing a weapon, casting a spell, or aiming a ranged weapon at the target, automatically breaks the effect." I don't think combat gets much nearer than when you have already rolled initiative and are in the middle of it. And Lance has already demonstrated that he is an obvious threat with his previous attack on the Elder (when he cast entangle). -Jindl In addition to attacking the Elder with entangle, Lance had also cast and damaged the Elder with a fireball. There's no way Lance would be able to use fascinate when obviously enganged in combat with the Elder. -Jindl
Zerone 05-24-05, 09:33 AM	Actually, the DC is 10 plus half the continuing damage, plus the spell level of the spell you are attempting to cast = DC 14 (10 +5/2 +2). Hmmm... how much I have forgotten in my absence... Thanks Jindl.
cellardweller 05-24-05, 09:58 AM	Also, I'm not sure but I think the fact that the pc's are in the middle of combat may make using the fascinate bardic music ability impossible. From the description: "The distraction of nearby combat or other dangers prevents the ability from working..." and "Any obvious threat, such as someone drawing a weapon, casting a spell, or aiming a ranged weapon at the target, automatically breaks the effect." I don't think combat gets much nearer than when you have already rolled initiative and are in the middle of it. And Lance has already demonstrated that he is an obvious threat with his previous attack on the Elder (when he cast entangle). Missed this earlier post of yours. I disagree totally, there is no nearby combat that could distract the elders attention from Lance, and for the whole duration of the facinate, no one is threatening him with a spell, weapon or anything else. If Bubo and Celeste, were having a fight on the side you would have a point, but there were no actions taken that could be construed as combat in any way for the entire duration that bardic music was used.
Jindl 05-24-05, 10:38 AM	The fact that you are engaged in combat is what prevents the fascinate. The ability doesn't work if there is combat going on. Had Lance attempted fascinate before he had attacked the Elder and Bubo with fireball and entangle, then I wouldn't complain. But since he had already begun combat with both of them, the rules don't allow him to use the fascinate ability. I would also point out that the ability is broken by any sort of attack. When the Elder passed his first saving throw against suggestion, he became aware that he was attacked. That failed suggestion attempt would have ended the fascinate ability. -Jindl
Sindorin 05-24-05, 10:41 AM	Suggestion has a duration of 1 hr/lvl, its duration isn't dependent on fascinate. Where is this duration stated? It implies that the fight would have been very long and involving several 10 round delay penalties or whatever our blasted house rules on that subject are. Either way, had I known this, I would have moderated it differently. The Elder doesn't have a scroll case or a powerstone pouch. What he has is scrolls and powerstones stuffed into the multitude of pockets in his explorer's outfit (imagine the befuddled old mage with scrolls peeking out of every pocket...) So Lance's suggest would likely be more along the lines of "drop all your scrolls and powerstones into a pile and then blast them with energy stun." However, I think this will take a lot longer than the remaining 6 rounds of duration on the fascinate effect, since its a move + free action to draw/drop each item. Again, if I had known this really mattered, I would have moderated differently - Lance would know that suggestion lasts beyond the scope of fascinate, and he could have gone invisible while the Elder does what was suggested, in the round in which fascinate ended. It was a whole mess of confusion on my part because I honestly have not encountered a bard that is worth his salt. Especially since I have never rolled anything regarding what to do when someone blasts a bunch of scrolls and powerstones... but surprisingly I believe I ran it as the rules indicate. I stand by how I ran the fight.
Jindl 05-24-05, 10:45 AM	I stand by how I ran the fight. You have yet to respond to the other issues I raised: 1. Lance used fascinate during combat, which isn't allowed according to the abilities description. 2. The Elder was aware of an attack when he passed the first save against suggestion. Becoming aware of an attack ends the fascinate effect before the second suggestion can be attempted. -Jindl
Cerebus13 05-24-05, 11:03 AM	All very good suggestions, thanks. I think I found a few more... :) Round 9: Laurze has no action. I can't figure out why she didn't get a Full Attack Action. Also, Greevus needs to make a DC 14 Concentration Check (10, +5/2 damage, +2 Spell Level) or fail to cast his Hold Person due to the Acid Arrow Damage. Round 10: Rin should get her 1st Hold reroll here, as it is stated in the PHB: on my turn I get another reroll. Making Round 11 a second reroll. Laurze should be getting a Full Attack, as she'd be 5' away from Greevus from round 9. I think that's it. If anyone wants to look it over, it'd be welcome. :D Rin vs. Greevus (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6207825&postcount=1559) *•. Z Edited with Jindl's correction.So additional stuff to make this fight kosher... -Round 9 Laurze does something. -Round 9 Greevus must make a DC 14 Concentration check. -Round 10 move Rin's saving throws forward by one because they start here. -Round 10 Laurze gets a full attack. This is in addition to DC 20 Ride checks along with a move action that Rin will have to make to control the untrained horse. Unfortunately I don't know exactly when these could occur because the fight is likely to change some...but once Greevus/Rin engage in combat the horse is going to freak out.
Sindorin 05-24-05, 11:12 AM	You have yet to respond to the other issues I raised: 1. Lance used fascinate during combat, which isn't allowed according to the abilities description. 2. The Elder was aware of an attack when he passed the first save against suggestion. Becoming aware of an attack ends the fascinate effect before the second suggestion can be attempted. -Jindl Can't we just let a Bard have his day in the arena, or do we have to basically make every one of the abilities he gets unusable in the arena? :D 1. Nothing I see that would prevent it from being attempted. Where does it say that he can't be fascinated after being attacked? 2. How does he become aware that he is being attacked during the effect?
SoulLord 05-24-05, 11:21 AM	not sure if it helps clear things up... from the srd Succeeding on a Saving Throw A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. Likewise, if a creature’s saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells. fascinate Fascinate (Sp) A bard with 3 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use his music or poetics to cause one or more creatures to become fascinated with him. Each creature to be fascinated must be within 90 feet, able to see and hear the bard, and able to pay attention to him. The bard must also be able to see the creature. The distraction of a nearby combat or other dangers prevents the ability from working. For every three levels a bard attains beyond 1st, he can target one additional creature with a single use of this ability. To use the ability, a bard makes a Perform check. His check result is the DC for each affected creature’s Will save against the effect. If a creature’s saving throw succeeds, the bard cannot attempt to fascinate that creature again for 24 hours. If its saving throw fails, the creature sits quietly and listens to the song, taking no other actions, for as long as the bard continues to play and concentrate (up to a maximum of 1 round per bard level). While fascinated, a target takes a -4 penalty on skill checks made as reactions, such as Listen and Spot checks. Any potential threat requires the bard to make another Perform check and allows the creature a new saving throw against a DC equal to the new Perform check result. Any obvious threat, such as someone drawing a weapon, casting a spell, or aiming a ranged weapon at the target, automatically breaks the effect. Fascinate is an enchantment (compulsion), mind-affecting ability.
Arstimis 05-24-05, 12:15 PM	xanadu: Other than my horribly unlucky low rolls vs. his lucky high rolls (which seems to always determine the fight for me) I just wanna know how someone with a move speed of 45 can catch a 60ft move speed of a light warhorse
Caterane 05-24-05, 01:47 PM	The bard must also be able to see the creature. The distraction of a nearby combat or other dangers prevents the ability from working. Other dangers means not Lance but someone else. Only other ally is the horse which hasn't attacked so I'd say there are no other dangers (although I have to agree that this is a questionable part). If a creature’s saving throw succeeds, the bard cannot attempt to fascinate that creature again for 24 hours. The Elder did not succeed on the save vs fascinate, only on the one vs the Suggestion but it explicitely says "Usind this ability [Suggestion] does not break the bard's concentration nor does it allow a second saving throw against the fascinate effect". Any obvious threat, such as someone drawing a weapon, casting a spell, or aiming a ranged weapon at the target, automatically breaks the effect. This only refers to an already fascinated creature, and Lance did neither draw a weapon, or any other hostile action while using fascinate. I really like this ability and with Lance being the only one of two bards in the long CoCo history, we should burn in hell if we nerf one of his rare useful abilities. The fascinate effect itself is more or less harmless so the high DC is ok. The accompanying suggestion has a Dc of 10+ 1/2 bard level +Charisma which isn't really breathtaking.
Sindorin 05-24-05, 02:06 PM	Yes, Lance vs. The Elder is probably the last fight I am ever going to moderate using an online roller unless someone asks me to (because they... don't trust me :rolleyes: ) because I hate how unfair it really can be. looking at numbers and will saves, the Elder should not have had much of a problem passing those suggestion will saves (though the fascinate dc was VERY TOUGH for even him to beat).
SoulLord 05-24-05, 03:27 PM	Caterane> two points one is to not nerf the bard and other is what the raw says Most of your arguments are valid, the only one i have a reluctance to accept is if anyone inside the arena is a valid target for fascinate. The distraction of a nearby combat or other dangers prevents the ability from working My interpretation of other dangers includes the oponent in the arena, one does not walk into it not expecting danger from his opponents. Now i agree that it would nerf one of the bard's abilities, if applied under my judgement and we don't want that. So perhaps a compromise is in order? As long as the bard takes *no hostile actions toward his opponent he can be considered the legal target of his fascinate ability? *like drawing a weapon, casting a spell, or aiming a ranged weapon at the target
xanadu 05-24-05, 05:19 PM	xanadu: Other than my horribly unlucky low rolls vs. his lucky high rolls (which seems to always determine the fight for me) I just wanna know how someone with a move speed of 45 can catch a 60ft move speed of a light warhorse Your square was (-25, -14). He was enlarged and occupied squares (-25, -14), (-25, -13), (-24, -14), (-24, -13). If you can find a safe square where his 10 foot reach wont get you, let me know and I'll redo the fight from that point.
Jindl 05-24-05, 05:36 PM	@SoulLord - That was one of my points exactly. If Lance had not attacked the Elder prior to attempting to use fascinate, then I would not have complained. But since the Elder and Bubo had both been attacked with an Entangle spell and a Fireball spell by Lance, there is definately combat going on and dangers nearby. There is no way fascinate could be used under those circumstances. As for the other point, I think you proved pretty clearly that passing a save makes the target aware of an attack. And awareness of an attack ends the fascinate effect. The suggestion ability of the bard says that spending a standard action to use the spell-like ability of suggestion does not end the concentration of the bard upon the fascinate ability, and it says that the target does not get a new save against the fascinate effect. But neither of these exemptions apply to the fascinate effect ending because the target was attacked. The Elder knew he was attacked when he passed the save against the first suggestion attempt, and this knowledge would end the fascinate effect. I think the RAW supports both of these arguments above, which would require some changes to the fight. -Jindl
Arstimis 05-24-05, 06:17 PM	Your square was (-25, -14). He was enlarged and occupied squares (-25, -14), (-25, -13), (-24, -14), (-24, -13). If you can find a safe square where his 10 foot reach wont get you, let me know and I'll redo the fight from that point.No, dont worry about rerunning it. If you thought I was talking about the AoO, i understand that My only question was how in the next round he was able to get as far as my 60 ft speed mount was and still attack me I escape grapple and can move my horse 120 ft away from him. He can only move 90ft and still attack me Thats what I dont get
xanadu 05-24-05, 06:48 PM	No, dont worry about rerunning it. If you thought I was talking about the AoO, i understand that My only question was how in the next round he was able to get as far as my 60 ft speed mount was and still attack me I escape grapple and can move my horse 120 ft away from him. He can only move 90ft and still attack me Thats what I dont get That's exactly it, those are the squares you both occupied when you escaped the grappled. You have 60 feet to move from that point. He moves 45 feet. That leaves you 15 feet of escape room. He can reach 10 feet, now you have only 5 feet of escape room; in short no margin for error. Since you have to turn (i.e. you cant move a full 60 feet away from him), he can make up that 5 feet.
Arstimis 05-24-05, 06:53 PM	That's exactly it, those are the squares you both occupied when you escaped the grappled. You have 60 feet to move from that point. He moves 45 feet. That leaves you 15 feet of escape room. He can reach 10 feet, now you have only 5 feet of escape room; in short no margin for error. Since you have to turn (i.e. you cant move a full 60 feet away from him), he can make up that 5 feet.I guess my question now would be..Why cant the horse make a double move?
Malither76 05-24-05, 08:11 PM	Rules of the Game states you spend enough time escaping the grapple that only a single move is allowed
Arstimis 05-24-05, 08:43 PM	Rules of the Game states you spend enough time escaping the grapple that only a single move is allowedahh, ok, thanks, I guess I missed that
Salrantol 05-24-05, 11:51 PM	Updated Griff Mythal vs. the Gatekeeper (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6255931&postcount=1572) is up. Same end result, with small changes in expenditures, XP earned, and gp earned.
Jindl 05-25-05, 12:40 AM	Nell Leonne (Huan) vs Aeluath Dryearraheal (Kaigan): Jindl is posted. Sorry its late. Both gladiators had nearly identical tactics, which resulted in both gladiators resorting to their back-up plan, which means we had two melee specialists engaging in a ranged battle on foot, where both pc's needed an 18+ on 1d20 to hit the other one. Luck was pretty evenly distributed, until a crit ended the fight. -Jindl
cellardweller 05-25-05, 12:43 AM	That was one of my points exactly. If Lance had not attacked the Elder prior to attempting to use fascinate, then I would not have complained. But since the Elder and Bubo had both been attacked with an Entangle spell and a Fireball spell by Lance, there is definately combat going on and dangers nearby. There is no way fascinate could be used under those circumstances. The text is "The distraction of a nearby combat" not "The distraction of recent nearby combat". There is no combat happening during the period that facination is being used.
Jindl 05-25-05, 12:50 AM	The text is "The distraction of a nearby combat" not "The distraction of recent nearby combat". There is no combat happening during the period that facination is being used. Tell that to the Elder, who was just hit by a fireball a few seconds earlier. The pc's are engaged in the same combat during the entire fight. Suggesting that combat isn't occurring just because both pc's cast buffing spells during the previous round is a bit ridiculous. Now if no attacks had yet occurred, I would believe that combat hadn't started yet. But once Lance began attacking, combat began, and both gladiators know that combat isn't over until somebody dies. @Sindorin - Are you going to address the additional issues that SoulLord and I have raised? The fascinate ability clearly doesn't work in combat (despite Cat's post), and even if it did, the ability should have ended when the Elder became aware of an attack (from an unknown source) by passing his Will save against the first suggestion attempt. I think either of these issues warrant a rerun, and both together certainly do. -Jindl
cellardweller 05-25-05, 01:52 AM	Tell that to the Elder, who was just hit by a fireball a few seconds earlier. Emphasis mine. How is previously being hit by a fireball supposed to distract the elder from paying attention to Lance now? The pc's are engaged in the same combat during the entire fight. Suggesting that combat isn't occurring just because both pc's cast buffing spells during the previous round is a bit ridiculous. Now if no attacks had yet occurred, I would believe that combat hadn't started yet. But once Lance began attacking, combat began, and both gladiators know that combat isn't over until somebody dies. This is the root of the problem. I see combat as 2 people attacking one another, you see combat 2 people who want to attack one another. I favour my definition because I fail to see how perceived intent could "distract" attention. Someone with books available> Is there a definition of "Combat" in appendix?
Jindl 05-25-05, 02:04 AM	Emphasis mine. How is previously being hit by a fireball supposed to distract the elder from paying attention to Lance now? There's a difference between paying attention to an opponent (in order to dodge the next fireball), and listening to someone perform a song/poem/whatever. Attacking the Elder with a fireball changes the entire situation from "listening to Lance" to "trying not to die". This is the root of the problem. I see combat as 2 people attacking one another, you see combat 2 people who want to attack one another. I favour my definition because I fail to see how perceived intent could "distract" attention. Someone with books available> Is there a definition of "Combat" in appendix? Not exactly. I think 2 people who want to attack each other but haven't yet, haven't initiated combat. I think combat begins when the first attack is made, and that it continues until combat ends (with the death or surrender of one of the participants). Combat as a term isn't defined in the appendix. However, here's some of what the Combat section of the PHB has to say (under Combat Basics, pg 135): "Combats occur in rounds. In every round, each combatant gets to do something." "Before the first round, each player makes an initiative check for his or her character ... Characters act in order from highest initative result to lowest, with the check applying to all rounds of the combat." "In combat, the most prevalent standard action is an attack." From these statements it is clear that whenever character's actions are tracked round by round, they might be in combat. Also when characters act according to initiative, they definately are in combat (since that is the only time when initiative is ever rolled per the rules). And that while the most prevalent action in combat is an attack, obviously other (non-attack) actions are possible as well. -Jindl
cellardweller 05-25-05, 02:28 AM	There's a difference between paying attention to an opponent (in order to dodge the next fireball), and listening to someone perform a song/poem/whatever. Attacking the Elder with a fireball changes the entire situation from "listening to Lance" to "trying not to die". The difference is irrelevent to the question "is there occuring combat nearby that would distract attention away from Lance". From these statements it is clear that whenever character's actions are tracked round by round, they might be in combat. "in combat -> track by rounds" is not the same as "track by rounds -> combat" Also when characters act according to initiative, they definately are in combat (since that is the only time when initiative is ever rolled per the rules). Initiative is a dexterity check (see FAQ), ability checks can be done at any time.
Sindorin 05-25-05, 02:34 AM	@Sindorin - Are you going to address the additional issues that SoulLord and I have raised? The fascinate ability clearly doesn't work in combat (despite Cat's post), and even if it did, the ability should have ended when the Elder became aware of an attack (from an unknown source) by passing his Will save against the first suggestion attempt. I think either of these issues warrant a rerun, and both together certainly do. -Jindl I'm not rerunning it until I know for certain what is correct. Cellar's tactics were pretty set in the understanding that he would be able to use fascinate. If I were to rerun, I would want new tactics from both of you and I would roll new start spots. But instead of that, I would rather someone else run the fight. I thought I was pretty accurate to the rules in that fight.
Zerone 05-25-05, 08:51 AM	Concerning the Jindl vs. Cellar fight Someone with books available> Is there a definition of "Combat" in appendix? I didn't see one, however... Initiative: A system of determining the order of actions in a battle. Before the first round of combat, each combatant makes a single initiative check. Each round, the participants act in order from the highest initiative result to the lowest. This states that there is nearby combat, as you both are in combat the instant you rolled Initiative. Just because the ringing of metal is missing doesn't mean that combat isn't happening. Unfortunately, this completely rules out the use of the Fascinate ability as the CoCo rules now stand. A change I proposed, found here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6258229&postcount=2274), allows for things to be different, as a battle/combat initiative is not rolled until one of the combatants spots the other. This allows for non-combat actions, surprise rounds, and many other possibilities. So far, only Pittbull has responded. His remarks can be found one post lower, or here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6258652&postcount=2275). *•. Z
Zerone 05-25-05, 09:05 AM	We are still waiting for the corrections to be made to the Rin vs. Greevus fight. There are some mistakes that could change the outcome or end the battle sooner (as noted previously within this thread), which has xp & gp or monetary effects for both characters. Currently this fight stands resolved yet it is not, so, again, sorry Cerebus13, but I would ask that it be held back another week. Tag seems rather busy at the moment, perhaps if there is no response from Tag in the next few days some one will pick up this fight and rerun/edit it? It won't be hard to edit as all the work is done except a few minor rules changes. Thanks, *•. Zerone
Caterane 05-25-05, 09:26 AM	@Re: Fascinate - I've stated my opinion about the Elder vs Lance fight earlier (which was not a GM rule but just how I interpret the situation). Turning fascinate into a useless non-combat ability, however, like some suggest, is much more of a concern to me, and that is not going to happen. When CD reactivated Lance I thought "Wow look, a bard. Last time I saw one Mo was GM and challenging the Harvester at level 6". @Zoro: I don't like this idea of having 2 seperate initiatives. It would make combat more difficult and is something that does not happen in a game. When would you roll the second ini? What if Gladiator A sees B but not vice versa? Ini or not? And what if someone hides for 10 rounds and then reappears? And if one of them teleports out, new ini? What if....(and so on). You see, there are a lot of questions and it is something every new member would have to learn because it would be a CoCo house rule. The reason why we know ini in advance is that you also know it in a real campaign, as well as in Quests, Miniquest, and Campaigns, and in Seperate thread arena fights. It mimics the reality of D&D.
Jindl 05-25-05, 09:51 AM	@Re: Fascinate - I've stated my opinion about the Elder vs Lance fight earlier (which was not a GM rule but just how I interpret the situation). Turning fascinate into a useless non-combat ability, however, like some suggest, is much more of a concern to me, and that is not going to happen. When CD reactivated Lance I thought "Wow look, a bard. Last time I saw one Mo was GM and challenging the Harvester at level 6". People always forget Candy, though with a 28 Cha you'd think they would remember her... Part of the problem with fascinate is that the DC is based upon a skill check. It would be quite simple to build a bard with a perform skill > +20 at 6th level. +22 Perform [9 ranks + 5 Cha +3 skill focus +3 circlet of persuasion +2 mw instrument] ... just as an example. His fascinate DC's will average around 33, which means that every active character will need a natural 20 to pass. And once you are fascinated, you'll be subjected to 1 suggestion per level of the bard (since this ability is not limited in uses at all), with a Will DC of about 20 (because you'll definately want to take ability focus for that ability). Eventually you'll fail. Heck, the Elder has nearly the highest will save in the CoCo and he only has a 50/50 chance against that DC. And once you fail a suggestion, you lose. Now sure, you could protect yourself with a protection from <alignment> potion or spell. But our bard also has scrolls: dispel magic (CL5-10) at his disposal to dispel your buff before fascinating you. And you still don't think this is broken? Re: The Elder vs Lance - There are two reasons why this fight should be corrected. #1 - The rules clearly show that fascinate cannot be used in combat. #2 - The Elder became aware of an attack from an unknown origin when he passed the first save against suggestion. This should have ended the fascinate effect. Everyone seems to be focusing on the first issue, but the second issue alone warrants a rerun. I would like this fight to not be considered resolved until these issues are addressed fully. -Jindl
Zerone 05-25-05, 09:51 AM	@Re: Fascinate I agree that taking away powers from an already under-used character class is not a good idea, but the book states, "distraction of nearby combat or other dangers...' Jindl's character falls under 'other dangers', if not nearby combat... and that rules out the Fascinate ability as usable in the CoCo. This is a 'just' ruling (the way the rules should be used/interpreted) and not an 'emotional' or 'biased' decision. @Re: Two Initiatives We have house rules already - 5' step readied/action rule. This changed one of my characters completely. Perhaps my stating a second initiative was misplaced... but it represents a random nature as to when Character A gets to do non-combat actions in relation to Character B. Once a character recognizes the other, Combat Initiative would be rolled, even if only one character is aware of the other, then they have 'surprise' until they 'affect the world' in a manner that allows the other character knowledge of their being there (attacking, making sound - listen, being spotted - spot, leaving tracks - tracking, having to make a save, etc.). This is just like a campaign, where the rogue hides in the shadows and waits for everyone to pass to attack the rear of the party, which causes many different scenarios that we can never encounter in the CoCo. Once the Combat Initiative is rolled, that is it no matter the circumstances - leaving the arena, hiding, etc. In a real campaign you do not have 2-3 days to write tactics about 'if I win initiative', if I lose Initiative', 'if this then this' scenarios, etc. A good DM should give you a brief moment to decide you actions and then demand an action or you forfeit your initiative.
Jindl 05-25-05, 10:00 AM	@Zoro - In my RL campaign, we usually roll initiative as soon as 1 side is aware of the other (see the last encounter of Rook/Fyhir's quest as an example). That doesn't mean they spot them, just that they are aware that a potential threat is nearby. Sometimes the pc's are even wrong, mistaking some harmless environmental effect for a threat. The point is that when the pitlord says "Go!" both sides are assumed to be aware that there is a threat nearby. That's why initative is rolled at the beginning of the fight. As for metagame knowledge of whether you won initiative, removing it won't remove the "if I won initiative" tactics, it will just change them to "if I think I won initiative" tactics. I'm not seeing the benefit of making that change. Am I missing something? -Jindl
michael_noah 05-25-05, 12:52 PM	RE: Fascinate The distraction of a nearby combat or other dangers prevents the ability from working. Everyone seems to have ignored the "other dangers" part after it was mentioned once. It doesn't even matter if "combat" is going on (which it is). Someone is nearby the Elder casting entagles and fireballs at him. That is a danger if I ever saw one.
SoulLord 05-25-05, 01:02 PM	Which is why I humbly suggest that we let the bard use his ability as long as no hostile actions have been "perceived" by the bard's foe.
Jindl 05-25-05, 08:56 PM	@Kaigan/Huan/Pitlords - It has been brought to my attention that there is a simple math error in Aeiou vs Nell that reverses the outcome of this very close fight. Here is the relevant section of the fight: Aeiou fires another arrow. (Bow 18 +7 vs AC 16 +4 shield +4 cover, hits. Damage = 1d8+5 (-2 DR) = 4 pts -2 DR= 2 pts.) He finally hits Nell, just as his own protection from law effect ends. The damage has finally wounded Nell to the point where he decides to invoke a vigor, which he draws/casts from a powerstone (ML2). The arrow also depleted his own protection from arrows effect. Nell (-5, -4), 18/44 hp, 5/5 pp, force screen (+4 shield) [21], vigor (+10 hp) [40] Aeiou (-3, -15), 29/42 hp The mistake is in bolded text above. I made the math error of deducting the DR for the last 2 points of protection from arrows, twice. The arrow actually did minimum damage of 6 pts, before the DR was deducted. The text should have read "Damage = 1d8+5 (-2 DR) = 6 pts -2 DR= 4 pts." This leaves Nell with 16 hps at the end of Round 20, which causes him to fall unconscious at -1 hps just before he would have fired the fight winning critical. I would like to apologize to both players for any inconvinience caused by this mistake. The fight result should be reversed, which puts Aieou at ECL6. Since we now allow fights between different ECL's, his pairing against Jannelle should remain as is. My apologies again to both players, and please check the end of the fight for the updated rewards. -Jindl
Huan 05-25-05, 09:40 PM	:( Rats ... could an Autohypnosis check have been made on Nell's part?
Jindl 05-25-05, 10:10 PM	:( Rats ... could an Autohypnosis check have been made on Nell's part? To stabilize, yes. But then Aeiou would simply CDG. Had Nell been left with 0 hps, then he could have attempted an autohypnosis check to act normally without losing hps. But once you are negative, autohypnosis can only be used to stabilize. -Jindl
Caterane 05-26-05, 05:30 AM	Ok, here's what we're going to do Since Auleiath has already been paired anew, we cannot cancel his fight. Aeiluth vs Janelle stands and Aliouth is considered a level 6 character for this fight (as his sheet shows). After the fight, Auauath gets an additional +1000 XP and +1067 gp for the win vs Nell (he keeps the 500/533 he already got). Nell deducts xp and gold appropriately (-1000 xp and -1067 gp). @Arty: Please do NOT write these additional xp and gp from the last fight into your fight summary. Jindl has already changed it accordingly.
Arstimis 05-26-05, 12:15 PM	@Arty: Please do NOT write these additional xp and gp from the last fight into your fight summary. Jindl has already changed it accordingly. What?
Caterane 05-26-05, 12:26 PM	Oh if you don't understand that that's perfect. Just run the fight ;)
Arstimis 05-26-05, 12:30 PM	Ok, i understand now
Sindorin 05-29-05, 09:18 PM	Jindl has asked me to fix Elder vs. Lance. To do this without feeling bad about it, I would like to ask Cellardweller and Jindl for new tactics for their characters, since Cellar's tactics were written with the evident misconception (on my part as well) that using fascinate would work after the attack. I don't want to run the fight properly with strict following to those tactics, because I wouldn't want someone to pitlord me if I didn't understand somethinng in the rules. SO, once I receive new tactics, I will be able to get the results up with proper treatment of Fascinate in combat.
Jindl 05-29-05, 09:39 PM	Thank you, Sindorin. I'll PM tactics shortly. -Jindl
Sindorin 05-29-05, 09:46 PM	No problem. I understand that the fight is incorrect as posted, but I still want to be as fair as I know how :).
Jindl 05-29-05, 09:47 PM	Updated tactics have been PM'd. -Jindl
cellardweller 05-30-05, 12:17 AM	Jindl has asked me to fix Elder vs. Lance. To do this without feeling bad about it, I would like to ask Cellardweller and Jindl for new tactics for their characters, since Cellar's tactics were written with the evident misconception (on my part as well) that using fascinate would work after the attack. Hang on just one second, the community is still very far away from agreement on this. Fascinate is only prevented by combat and threats going on now. Not by events having happened in the past. The fact remains that there was no combat or "overtly hostile" actions going on during the period of the fascination. We will probably require an elders vote to resolve this. I think all know where Jindl and I stand. @Pitbull/Sindorin, can you please add your voices.
Sindorin 05-30-05, 12:23 AM	The Elder passed several will saves against the suggestions, which SoulLord pointed out that when you pass a Will save, you basically know that you passed a will save and there is a 'hostile tingle' or something... Would this end the fascination? You do not necessarily know what it is that is taking the hostile action, which is why I am a bit torn on whether or not this would truly end the effect. Since the Elder is under the fascination effect he would likely need to see something hostile happen in order to end the effect.
cellardweller 05-30-05, 12:30 AM	The Elder passed several will saves against the suggestions, which SoulLord pointed out that when you pass a Will save, you basically know that you passed a will save and there is a 'hostile tingle' or something... Would this end the fascination? You do not necessarily know what it is that is taking the hostile action, which is why I am a bit torn on whether or not this would truly end the effect. Since the Elder is under the fascination effect he would likely need to see something hostile happen in order to end the effect. As per the srd this fall under the "potential threat" category not the "obvious threat one" and is specifically excluded. Srd- "Any potential threat requires the bard to make another Perform check and allows the creature a new saving throw against a DC equal to the new Perform check result." "Using this ability does not break the bard’s concentration on the fascinate effect, nor does it allow a second saving throw against the fascinate effect." If a failed suggestion attempt fell into the "obviously hostile" category, the second phrase would not have been required.
Sindorin 05-30-05, 12:36 AM	So basically all that would need to be added are perform checks and will saves against that, right? I'm so confused again
cellardweller 05-30-05, 12:59 AM	Any potential threat requires the bard to make another Perform check and allows the creature a new saving throw against a DC equal to the new Perform check result. Any obvious threat, such as someone drawing a weapon, casting a spell, or aiming a ranged weapon at the target, automatically breaks the effect. Fascinate works so long as there is no combat and no obvious threats. A potentially hostile action allows a reattempt at the same. A failed suggestion attempt is a potentially hostile action and would allow a new saving throw if the suggestion ability didn't specifically say that it is not required. Using this ability does not break the bard’s concentration on the fascinate effect, nor does it allow a second saving throw against the fascinate effect. We can be certain that a failed suggestion attempt is definitely "potentially hostile" and not "obviously hostile" because if it was this statement would not be required.
Kaigan 05-30-05, 01:30 AM	Not sure if you noticed this, but the DC for the save against fascinate is the perform check, which Lance in round 6 rolled as 28. Now Elder rolled a 26 for his save, so he should have failed, however... Here is the SRD description of fascinate for the bard: Fascinate (Sp): A bard with 3 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use his music or poetics to cause one or more creatures to become fascinated with him. Each creature to be fascinated must be within 90 feet, able to see and hear the bard, and able to pay attention to him. The bard must also be able to see the creature. The distraction of a nearby combat or other dangers prevents the ability from working. For every three levels a bard attains beyond 1st, he can target one additional creature with a single use of this ability. To use the ability, a bard makes a Perform check. His check result is the DC for each affected creature’s Will save against the effect. If a creature’s saving throw succeeds, the bard cannot attempt to fascinate that creature again for 24 hours. If its saving throw fails, the creature sits quietly and listens to the song, taking no other actions, for as long as the bard continues to play and concentrate (up to a maximum of 1 round per bard level). While fascinated, a target takes a –4 penalty on skill checks made as reactions, such as Listen and Spot checks. Any potential threat requires the bard to make another Perform check and allows the creature a new saving throw against a DC equal to the new Perform check result. Any obvious threat, such as someone drawing a weapon, casting a spell, or aiming a ranged weapon at the target, automatically breaks the effect. Fascinate is an enchantment (compulsion), mind-affecting ability. I have bolded the relevant part. The bolded part states that fascinate is an enchantment, therefore, since Elder is an elf, he gets an additional +2 to his will save, making his will save 28 instead of 26, therefore passing the save against fascinate
Pittbull 05-30-05, 11:22 AM	The question is, when starts the combat in the arena, when initiative is rolled or when the first attack (magical, physical,...) has been made? Did you allready decide this?
Jindl 05-30-05, 11:35 AM	The question is, when starts the combat in the arena, when initiative is rolled or when the first attack (magical, physical,...) has been made? Did you allready decide this? The RAW supports that combat begins when initiative is rolled (as initiative is only rolled to start a combat). However, the compromise that SoulLord suggested is that combat begins when the first attack is made. I support this compromise. In this fight, the Lance had already attacked the Elder with an entangle spell and a fireball spell. -Jindl
Jindl 05-30-05, 11:38 AM	@Sindorin - I suggest before making your decision on how to conduct the rerun, that you take a moment and reread everyone's comments in this thread. Several issues have been addressed multiple times, and I don't want to have to repeat refuting statements. Here is a summary along with my comments in red, based upon my reading of the RAW (but I still think you should reread everything, starting with post 107 of this thread). 1. With his Elven bonus against enchantments, the Elder should have passed the fascinate save. Incorrect. The Elder was polymorphed at the time and lost his racial bonus to saves as a result. 2. The distraction of nearby combat or other dangers prevents the ability from working. Since the Elder was in combat at the time, the ability won't work. This issue has been strongly supported by many other people, quoting the SRD. A couple of counter arguements have been that the Elder wasn't in combat at the time, which was refuted because Lance had already attacked him with entangle and fireball not more than a couple of rounds earlier, and that initiative was running at the time, meaning that in game terms there is definately a combat occurring. Another counter arguement is that "other dangers" means from someone other than the bard. However, that doesn't negate the fact that nearby combat prevents the ability from working, and since the Elder is currently involved in combat that definately makes it nearby. The end result is that this statement is correct in one way, if not both. 3. Any obvious threat, such as someone drawing a weapon, casting a spell, or aiming a ranged weapon at the target, automatically breaks the effect. The SRD says that suggestion doesn't interfere with the bards concentration on fascinate, nor does it allow an additional save against fascinate. The latter part would exempt a suggestion attempt from the following text regarding fascinate: "Any potential threat requires the bard to make another Perform check and allows the creature a new saving throw against a DC equal to the new Perform check result." I read this to mean that the action of using suggestion (activating a targetted spell-like ability against the facinated creature) doesn't grant another save against fascinate, which could potentially end the fascinate effect prior to the activation. The "prior to the activation" part at the end comes from the fact that a potential threat is a spellcaster about to cast. An obvious threat is when you are aware that a spell just hit you. The Elder became aware that he was just targetted by magic when he passed the first Will save against suggestion. This awareness counts as an obvious threat and automatically breaks the effect. The suggestion ability's exemption from provoking a 2nd saving throw doesn't come into play, because there never was a 2nd saving throw. The fascinate ended automatically because the Elder became aware that he was attacked. The end result is that the fascinate effect ends if the fascinated creature passes a saving throw against an attack. 4. The wording doesn't expressly forbid it, but the suggestion ability is written to infer that you can only "make a suggestion (as the spell) to a creature that he has already fascinated (see above)." That's a singular suggestion attempt. Cellar agreed with this when I first posted it (post #120), and it hasn't been brought up again. Allowing the bard an infinite number of suggestion attempts, when the RAW refers to suggestion only in the singular is just part of what makes this so broken. While open to interpretation, I would definately suggest *pun* interpreting this as only 1 suggestion per fascinated creature. 5. So Lance's suggestion would likely be more along the lines of "drop all your scrolls and powerstones into a pile and then blast them with energy stun." However, I think this will take a lot longer than the remaining 6 rounds of duration on the fascinate effect, since its a move + free action to draw/drop each item. Almost correct. Since suggestion works as the spell, it has a duration of 1 hour/level, not 6 rounds. There is plenty of time for the Elder to draw/drop every scroll, powerstone, and potion. 6. So perhaps a compromise is in order? As long as the bard takes no hostile actions (like drawing a weapon, casting a spell, or aiming a ranged weapon at a target) then he can use fascinate ability? This suggestion, proposed by SoulLord, is something which I would agree with, but only if the bard is limited in the number of suggestion attempts he can make to a single fascinated creature (see Issue 4.) Otherwise, even with this restriction, the bard becomes severly broken. See my example in post #152 of a 6th level bard who can easily have a perform skill of +22, and what that means to his opponents to understand why I think misinterpretation of these abilities makes the bard broken. 7. Hang on just one second, the community is still very far away from agreement on this. Actually, if you want to count, the following people seem to support the fight as is: Caterane and cellardweller. And Caterane remarked that allowing the use of fascinate in combat was a "questionable part", so I'm not sure how he feels about the compromise that has been suggested (see Issue #6). The people who support changing the fight are: Jindl, Zerone, SoulLord, michael_noah, and (just inferring from his post above) Pittbull. I think I pointed out most of the issues that have been raised (and even a few that have been resolved). But I hope you'll still reread this thread carefully to help draw your own conclusion. -Jindl
Caterane 05-30-05, 11:48 AM	Hey guys, sorry to interrupt your discussion but since you're focused on this thread.... Question: A half-dragon gains 2 claw attacks. If I add it to a pegasus, would it gain 2 claws with which I can manipulate stuff?
Jindl 05-30-05, 11:55 AM	Hey guys, sorry to interrupt your discussion but since you're focused on this thread.... Question: A half-dragon gains 2 claw attacks. If I add it to a pegasus, would it gain 2 claws with which I can manipulate stuff? You are always coming up with new ideas, eh? Yes, I suppose that would work, although I think the 2 claws would replace the 2 hoof attacks. Just watch out for the alignment issues of being a half-dragon (always same as parent dragon species). Wouldn't that be like an ECL9 creature with 4 HD? -Jindl
Caterane 05-30-05, 12:03 PM	Well, it has 4 hooves so if two would be replaced I still have 2 left. If it replaces the hoofs at all; don't know how it would be able to gallopp with 2 claws as front hooves. Yeah 4 HD but I think I have some ways to prevent a lot of damage.
Pittbull 05-30-05, 12:13 PM	My opinion is, if a bard uses his fascinate before he has attacked with anything, it works (in the CoCo). We should agree, that the attack makes the combat in the CoCo! This way fascinate is still a very strong power.
Sindorin 05-30-05, 12:28 PM	All right, everyone. As Jindl asked, I have re-read The Entire Thread. So far, my conclusion is in favor of leaving the fight as is: It states that using Suggestion does not break the bard's concentration. It states that 'other nearby combat' ends or prevents the effect. Nowhere does it say that the bard can be the cause of the end of the effect. The bard is doing the fascinating. It's not like an illusion where you can pass a will save to simply disbelieve it. You fail the save, you suffer the consequences. Cellardweller stated that he's starting to believe that bards are broken earlier in this thread, and I agree with him that the Perform Check Result becoming the Will Save DC is indeed a bit broken. But it is how the rules are. Nowhere does it say that passing a will save against a suggestion attempt ends the fascinate effect, it does though say that the effect of the suggestion ends. This means basically that the suggestion to a fascinated creature is automatically carried out until the will save is attempted and made. Since the Elder failed that will save against the suggestion to drop his stuff and blow it up, he would continue doing this long after the fascinate duration expired. I see nothing relevant to warrant changes in the fight after reviewing it all.
Jindl 05-30-05, 12:45 PM	Well you know that I and many others disagree. And you should know why since I think we made our points abundantly clear. But your the pitlord of this fight and I'll abide by your final say. Even though you're wrong ;) -Jindl