Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SnarkHunter 03-01-04, 09:18 PM	I figure if we start talking about this now we might be done by the time the book comes out :) My take is-It's going to be in the SRD. It would add several new dimensions to existing gladiators and perhaps give rise to new builds that would challenge old standards. If a lot of campaigns use psionics (and in my experiance they do) and this arena is to test realistic builds we should take that into account. So debate! Wow I really like having whole threads to debate in :).
Rosella 03-01-04, 09:48 PM	I believe this has been discussed before; We have to keep battle simple, therefore psionics are not really an option. Many people don't allow them in usual DnD settings, it'll be discouraging for new folks who don't know how they work.
SnarkHunter 03-01-04, 10:06 PM	Aye but that was 3.0 psionics. I think we can hope 3.5 will be somewhat more balanced. Of course on our new board we could always have a new coliseum with psionics in it! (wow what a concept...)
Druid Roxors 03-01-04, 10:15 PM	The only thing I can say to that is, "We shall see"
^Rayne^ 03-02-04, 12:59 AM	I have wanted psionics from the beginning and I believe the system is well integrated into the core material and is quite fair. I am excited to see what the new changes will be, and I hope that if they are not integrated into the Core Coliseum they at least find their way into some other Core style arena on these boards where players who like psionics cans see how their creations fair.
Moherajikuyx 03-02-04, 07:22 AM	One of the main advantages of the new board will be the chance of doing a "test arena", like, doing a thread with some fights to test if the pros of allowing - say - psionics ;) are enough to counter the effort. So I support your idea Snarky :thumbsup: Edit- of course if the test proves good, nothing prevents from issuing a poll - yes, we'll have REAL POLLS TOO!! :) - to decide democratically if we want psionics in the main arena.
Bishop the Bardican 03-02-04, 09:52 AM	I did not see a polls thread in our new forum so I guess this must be the best place. I would love to have psionics in the arena. Even if it is only a trial run. It would multiply the number of possible builds, and I sincerely doubt that psionic characters would come to dominate the arena. I want to see a scrawny telepath mindblasting a knight and mount into oblivion. *Official offering to play a psionic character and to mod psionic characters once the Expanded Psionics Handbook comes out.
Rosella 03-02-04, 01:19 PM	Just for the record; Ilene will go berzerk as soon as she spots the first mindflayerlike humanoid around here. No mind posessing!! :hoppingma (It's considered the worst of the worst of the black arts in her region)
Magagumo 03-02-04, 02:23 PM	If Psionics does prove to be balanced, I would love to see its presence in our Core Arena. In no other class (besides, perhaps, Stonelord) have I see spells/spell-like abilities based off ones Constitution or Strength... it makes buff casters (besides clerics and druids) that much more a possibility. My hope is Voce Warrior from Mindscapes becomes a legitimate Prestige Class :D.
Jindl 03-02-04, 02:32 PM	I haven't seen that PrC before. I am kinda taking a wait and see attitude towards the 3.5 Psionics. I find the concept very attractive, but I have never been satisfied with the implementation, except for the 2e Darksun setting, which I really liked. -Jindl
kattattack22 03-02-04, 04:27 PM	If Psionics are as weak in 3.5 as they were in 3.0 then I see no problem letting them in. I really like Mo's idea of a test arena to see how they do before incorporating them.
MotherBast 03-02-04, 09:07 PM	Jindl, Darksun was and still is my favorit D&D setting of all time. It just seemed more grapic and gritty, more adult to me. I don't know, it might just have been the group I played with at the time, but the Darksun setting has just always struck me as the setting for "mature" audiences. I wish WoTC would do a 3.5 darksun setting.
Battousai2005 03-02-04, 11:24 PM	@Katt: Weak? Hmm. Lemme see. No, no, just not seeing it. Problem is, I know a twink in the game rule. My friend knows it. It is a way of getting a little over 100 damage on a minimum damage roll. If i can find it, ill post it.
kattattack22 03-03-04, 02:26 AM	@Katt: Weak? Hmm. Lemme see. No, no, just not seeing it. Problem is, I know a twink in the game rule. My friend knows it. It is a way of getting a little over 100 damage on a minimum damage roll. If i can find it, ill post it. I mean in general, it seems psionics are just weaker sorcerors or fighther/sorcerers. This will hurt my arguement, but I have never seen anyone play a psionic. I only know from what I have read which would be the classes and psionic power chapters.
JosephKell 03-03-04, 02:57 AM	Originally posted by MotherBast Jindl, Darksun was and still is my favorit D&D setting of all time. It just seemed more grapic and gritty, more adult to me. I don't know, it might just have been the group I played with at the time, but the Darksun setting has just always struck me as the setting for "mature" audiences. I wish WoTC would do a 3.5 darksun setting. MotherBast, pick up Dungeon #110 and Dragon #319, they contain the 3.5 Darksun (DM side in Dungeon and Player's in Dragon). That is next months issue (Aprils, it is intentionally coinciding with the Expanded Psionics Handbook). Also several of the recent Dragons have EPH game stuff that can only be found there. Including a new race. Also Paizo has a lot of the same authors are Wizards of the Coast (few of the D&D writers are full-time employees, they are commissioned to write). http://www.paizo.com/
Moherajikuyx 03-03-04, 04:28 AM	Haha - catched the lurker!! :D
Battousai2005 03-03-04, 10:12 PM	Originally posted by kattattack22 I mean in general, it seems psionics are just weaker sorcerors or fighther/sorcerers. This will hurt my arguement, but I have never seen anyone play a psionic. I only know from what I have read which would be the classes and psionic power chapters. Well, true. I think there is a balance issue there. I actually have played a psion. I cant remember exactly which, i just remember using mass telekenisis on a group of NPCs. They couldn't fly very well before. I thought id give them a good time. :angel:
^Rayne^ 04-21-04, 09:57 PM	Now that the book has been released I feel this thread and subject needs a bump! I am one player who is hoping Psionics will make a regular appearance in the CoCo. Elders please look into the subject and see if the system is balanced enough to use. :)
kedi 04-22-04, 01:21 PM	Hmm, can't be sure if psionics are overpowered or underpowered: Think, you can only cast mage armor, magic missile but you can cast them 20 times!
^Rayne^ 04-25-04, 01:12 PM	kedi I have the new book and I believe you have completely oversimplified the new psionics using classes. I believe it is much cooler than what you just described, and I think the new rules have made them a great deal easier to use and much more powerful and functional than the older material. I think they will be a very cool new addition to the Core Coliseum!
Caterane 04-25-04, 01:18 PM	*sigh* I`m not a fan of psionics but a fan of additional options. I just ordered the book so that I can decide for myself what my attitude should be. I just remember that 3.0 psionics were a catastrophe and motivated discussions with various officials from WotC who weren`t convinced that it is that way made me a bit hesistant right now.
^Rayne^ 04-25-04, 01:24 PM	Well I think you might be surprised by what you see in the new Psionics Handbook. I got mine yesterday and I am surprised. For one thing they completely did away with the special powers section with different psionic combat modes. The new system seems much more streamlined and allows psions to cast their powers with a great deal of versatility. I think you might really like what you see because the new Psionics book is a HUGE improvement.
Magagumo 04-25-04, 06:54 PM	Hmm, getting the book tomorrow, but frieds tell me its very well done. Persoanlly, I'm a fan of the soul knife, which is the base psionic class without power points, which manifests a weapon from their mind. Very well-done, neat abilities but demonstrating a lot of the basics as well (Can eventually upgrade weapon to betetr damge forms or fight with tewo light weapons in hand, weapons get better, get's Whirlwind attack with soul knife, etc.)
^Rayne^ 04-25-04, 07:41 PM	I love the soulknife as well. I was thinking of building two new kobolds. One will be a soulknife and the other a ranger. I really liked all of the changes I've seen with Psionics. I think it will be a great addition to the core arena.
Battousai2005 04-26-04, 12:47 PM	Soulknives are cool and all, but its all about the pyrokenetic. "So this guy walk up to us and says... He says... Couldn't Robin have a cooler power? I mean all she does is light stuff on fire. And we were like... You're right. Lighting stuff on fire isn't all that cool. EXCEPT YOU CAN LIGHT STUFF ON FIRE!!! And thats when we realized why your mommies tell you not to talk to strangers." -The madness of Adult Swim, Cartoon Network
Caterane 05-10-04, 03:41 AM	Now that the Expanded Psionics Handbook is available I want to renew the discussion about allowing psionics in the arena, and check the overall board attitude towards it. I have read the book once now and it seems more balanced than the 3.0 version. However, a better criticism is only possible if it is being playtested and seen in action. The arena is here to playtest builds. However, some of my fears are not dispelled yet. A problem I see is the wave of new characters coming up, and old ones being retired in return. Now that the middle ranks are filling up it may throw us months back. Another thing is the wild talent or hidden talent feat which enables everyone to take psionic feats. Though this doesn`t sound unbalancing it`s more a roleplaying matter since how many psionic talents should exist in the world? There are others but I realize that these are minor compared to the plenty of options we will be getting over night. Perhaps the arena needs this new oil in the fire, perhaps it proves too much, but we have strong options of balancing this out. The main problem remains the balancing factor which is out of our reach to judge by now. If the worst comes to the worst, as a most drastical step we can always remove it again, and have those characters that have psionic stuff/classes incorporated replace the levels and items. Though this sounds like a lot of work it would be the last step only but at least we have an option even in this case. So, please, those who have read the book, share your thoughts. Cat
Kazzaroth Pan'theon 05-10-04, 06:04 AM	Well, I have had the book (psionic handbook) about months now and I have wanted really hard to be psionic warrior (I have not yet founded game thread dedicated for allowing psions). In my opinion we should test out the psionic char's before we can agreed onto anything particullarly. But if we take this as standard feature to COCO, we should strongly point out that psionic rules are optionall and are nto part of core rules. Also this affects the pitlording by that if psion is figthing, we need pitlord who owns the book of course. What comes to the combat mdoes, they can be really devastating in lower levels. Think this, if 1lvl psion uses mind thrust against non-psion (despite from strong mental defence granted by non-psion) and succeed, the target is stunned by 1-2 rounds (and psion haves yet 1 point left to use power the power or use 1lvl psion power). This was not all, think this if that would happen whit 10lvl psion against weak willed creature? I agreed that psion characthers (especially spionic warrior) are knowing less powers than sorcerers (and they cannot learn them into spellbook) but they can use same power, despite level, more times than sorcerror. Not to mention psionic feats wich make psions able to get +4 ac bonus free (so long that they have certain amount power points left) and make them move faster and jump three four times longer distance than normally anybody can. Of course psions are quite handicaped when their power using is directly related to their each stat (strength, dex, con etc). I shortly say that when wizard specialize into a school, psions must specialize into certain ability modifier if they are wanting discover the higher (certain) psion powers. Of course if we add psions into arena, everbody will go buy the books and then try them out in here (more profit for WotC and then most of the COCO members have the book then ;)). But because pions are rare, we can limit the upcoming psion wave by that each member can have only ONE psion char at COCO career (so that the core char's are not forgotten). But I point also out if there will be ever test forum where we test psion gladiators, I would want to volunteer such project (whit drow psionic warrior/ranger/slayer combo) :D.
Caterane 05-10-04, 06:09 AM	Uhm, Kazza, I was talking about the 3.5 EXPANDED Psionics handbook, not the 3.0 piece of crap. There are no combat modes, and it is in the SRD so everyone has access to it.
Kazzaroth Pan'theon 05-10-04, 06:24 AM	Uh, then ignore my post fully then :embarrass . Would you be kind enough and provid ethe link to the SRD (I have not yet discovered WHERE all the SRD files are, I have tried look them in here).
barrel_master 05-10-04, 10:33 AM	I've always been a supporter of psionics... but I think we should have some playtesting and establish some rules as well... personaly I think casters should be able to dispel psionic effects...
Magagumo 05-10-04, 10:51 AM	Ok, first thing is full Psionics-Magic Transperancy. Unless a feat or power specifically states that it only fuctions against psionics, and trust me, for those who haven't read it, there's a bout 4 or 5 general feats designed to punish people who use psionics on you, it will otherwise function normally for magic and psionics. Two, as WIld Talent may only be taken at 1st level, we will not see a wave of psionic feats till the new chars come i, and I don't expect any re-writes, as most of the high-lvl chars have used all their feats. I agree, Cat, let's test this thing out and see how it works. In my caipaign that I run (delayed until the start of next school semester *tear*) we are adding a dromite wilder to the group, os I would love to work out any bugs *no pun intended* that might arise. The big question in my mind will be how powers that drain power points will affect magic users (Wilders, a base class, begin to force additional PP spending when they are struck by telepathy spells. Telepathy functions often like enchantment, but occassionally uses death spells as well. Are elves going to gain their bonus vs. telepathy powrs? And is their some backlash for using Enchantment spells on Wilders?)
Jindl 05-10-04, 10:54 AM	As psionics are Core and in the SRD, I have no problem allowing them in the arena. However, there is a lot of change going on right now, with the guilds being added, the FAQ/polls being changed, etc., etc. So, I would like to wait a month or so before we start adding psionics. This would give us (the Elders) a chance to discuss some of the issues that barrel_master and Magagumo have already mentioned, like the effects of Wild Talents, new races, and magic-psionic transparency. So, psionics should be coming, but the transition may take a month or two. -Jindl
^Rayne^ 05-10-04, 11:39 AM	I agree with Jindl's assessment. It might take a small amount of time for the Elder's to examine this new material and decide how it will work in the Arena. I say a month or two is fine to get the Elders up to speed. I can certainly wait. I do think they should be added though and I think it will add a fun new dynamic to the Arena battles.
SnarkHunter 05-10-04, 01:53 PM	I'm generally in favor of adding psionics, I was just wondering if it was in the SRD yet? I don't have the book but that shouldn't be a problem with the SRD. Still when it is added we'll need to what is in and what's out and anything out, that's in (if you follow me here) will need to be mentioned!
barrel_master 05-10-04, 02:13 PM	Originally posted by SnarkHunter I'm generally in favor of adding psionics, I was just wondering if it was in the SRD yet? I don't have the book but that shouldn't be a problem with the SRD. Still when it is added we'll need to what is in and what's out and anything out, that's in (if you follow me here) will need to be mentioned! Yes, well have to wait until the new psion stuff is in the SRD. As far as I can see the SRD stuff is still old.
SnarkHunter 05-14-04, 09:15 PM	ATTENTION! Psionics SRD has been updated to 3.5. I'm looking it over right now but I don't have the book. Are there a few people that do who wouldn't mind comparing various chapters for whats in and out? I figure volunteers could do 2 each or something... Here's the link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35). Enjoy.
Limit 05-15-04, 04:28 AM	Although they are core and have been retuned greatly, Psionics still are a big change to the core rules we are used to. They have effectively doubled the number of classes, spells, PRCs and etc that Pitlords will need to be familiar with. I know that if something comes up, I can reference the SRD or the EPH, but it is still a lot of material that many of us have not actually played with. I suppose I'm really torn on the issue - it would give us a chance to play with new things, but would give us new things to learn. On a side note, I noticed in the EPH that the races that were in the MM are named slightly different. The original druegar is listed as "Druegar" in the MM, but listed was "Druegar, Psionic" in the EPH. I suppose this will allow us to easily add the new races without worrying about characters built with the old version.
Caterane 05-15-04, 04:34 AM	@Limit: ...and the arena is the perfect place to test it. As I said, we have strong options in balancing things out and even if the worst comes to the worst we can always remove it again. Though this might be a complicated process we`ll only do this once if it comes to that. Pitlords will get acustomed slowly since the psionic characters level slowly; they`ll need about 8 weeks to reach more complicated levels - if they win most of the time, more if they lose some of their fights. Additionally, psinic characters only have a handful of powers (even at higher levels) so it shouldn`t be a problem to learn them over time. Some of the powers are even very similar to existing spells. I say let`s give it a try else we`ll never find out.
^Rayne^ 05-15-04, 01:36 PM	I agree with Caterane on this. I think people are afraid to try new things here but the Psionics appears to be a very balanced system that was made to fit perfectly with the Core material. As far as I am concerned it is Core material and should be tested here at the Core Coliseum. Nothing I have read gives me doubt that this new system hasn't been perfectly balanced. I enjoy the flavor and I think builds with Psionic classes will make the game more fun for everyone involved. I've been working on a Homebrew game world for some time that is very strongly linked with Psionic powers and I have looked at the new material in hopes that it would fix many of the clear balance issues with the original material. I believe the 3.5 Psionics has met the challenge and more. I want to see this material tested here and I believe that is the purpose of the Core Coliseum. Please players give the system a chance.
Caterane 05-15-04, 01:38 PM	I promise you one thing: the arena will get old over time. The newbie influx is already towards zero, and the 2nd level roster has only 2 characters!! Without new options the arena will get bored over time and starve out, or at least be an old men home for a handful of hardcore players who play the 150th druid for the 20th time.
Magagumo 05-15-04, 01:55 PM	Anothe ragreement with Cat- When we added monsters with ECLs (and credits) it brought a wave of new characters in (and more are still coming). Psionics is even easier to implement, and since it doesn't require credits, it's esaier for new people to get into. Plus you get a surge of new builds- The non-cleric fighter buff build (less healing, mor personal augementation): Psychic Warrior The undisarmable, unsunderable weapon tied to a class with Bard-like saves, good HD, and a wave of nice ways to injure an opponent : Soulknife The oft-chaotic, super boost class in which you might pull off a siazble power, or be knocked dazed for a round. Success makes for increased attacks and saves, and their HD and Attack Bonus make them viable in melee- Wilder And, of course, the channeler of very different powers, capable of control the enemies mind, or perhaps simply editing them from the time stream. Also provided with a wide variety of energy type attacks: Psion On these classes alone (plus the psionic races and new prestige classes... like Cerebromancer), you're going to see alot of new tricks come up, and perhaps an uprising against the old classics fo the arena (Buff cleric for one ;))
Captain Mutilate 05-15-04, 01:57 PM	Hee... I can just imagine a psionic Dante... heh.
Caterane 05-15-04, 01:59 PM	Exactly my speech. I had to gather 27 credits to get a new never-seen before character on the roster; not everyone wants to invest so much time. Even Mo approved it! And he isn`t one who would risk his baby.
barrel_master 05-21-04, 12:42 PM	Regarding psions I think there are a few things we have to answer first, in order of what I think is most important first. 1. How does magic and psionics react? Does dispel magic work against psionic stuff? 2. How will the psions interact (kill I suppose) with the other characters? Will they be overpowering? 3. Can psionic weapons be mixed with magic weapons modifiers? (I say definate yes). 4. Will psionic spells that mimic magic spells be used a pre-reqs for item creation (I say no). 5. Can a single psionic focus work as a pre fight buff?
SnarkHunter 05-21-04, 02:35 PM	1. Completly. As far as dispelling or using antipsionic things they are equivalent in every way. 2. I don't think so, but of course we won't know until we try 3. Pretty sure, and was planning on doing this very thing when they get approved. 4. Probably not, but we could discuss that (animal affinity for bull's strength?) 5. Mag and I discussed this and we said yes, so long as the character had a +10 to their concentration check.
barrel_master 05-23-04, 09:38 PM	Hummm... I'm becoming slightly discouraged while building my half giant psi warrior. He can't get an ally and may be at a disadvantage at higher levels.
barrel_master 05-23-04, 09:42 PM	Do you have any advice to my above 'problem'?
SnarkHunter 05-23-04, 10:24 PM	I'm not eintirely sure what to do with the Psychic warrior myslef. He seems like a fighter cleric without the really useful spells... Maybe expanded knowledge Astral Construct?
Jindl 05-23-04, 11:28 PM	When I think Half-Giant psychic warrior, I think: use augmented expansion = gargantuan weapons + psionic feats like Deep Impact or Greater Psionic Weapon. Imagine a Gargantuan Greatsword wielded by a Huge Half-giant that deals either 6d6+1.5xstr on a Touch Attack or 10d6+1.5xstr on a normal melee attack. And for more fun, make it at +1 keen greatsword. That makes it 20d6+3xstr+2 on a critical hit, which it threatens on a 17-20. Scary. The point is that the major advantage of the psychic warrior is not the powers, its the psionic feats. -Jindl
Pittbull 05-24-04, 05:49 AM	Originally posted by Jindl The point is that the major advantage of the psychic warrior is not the powers, its the psionic feats. -Jindl My word, that is exactly the type of Half-Giant I've been building this weeking, as a substitude for Angosh.:D
barrel_master 05-24-04, 11:55 AM	Originally posted by Pittbull My word, that is exactly the type of Half-Giant I've been building this weeking, as a substitude for Angosh.:D Arg I was doing something like that too!!! Ha ha... but to be honest I was doing it more for fun then for actually putting him in the arena. I already have 3 chars and a 4th would take up too much of the boards time + my time. PS. I'd recomend high STR and maybe exotic weapon proficienty spiked chain. Also, boots fly + hustle would be great,
Jindl 05-24-04, 12:00 PM	To be clear, I'm not making that Half-Giant character. I was just offering an example for why I think psionic feats are the main advantage of playing the psychic warrior. -Jindl
Magagumo 05-24-04, 01:36 PM	Agreeing with Jindl, I've been working out non-associated/associated equivalencies for my monster NPCs for my campaign (for those who re clueless, the MM Appendix on upgrading monsters suggests that certain classes are worth less to a monster than another class). As far as I can tell, psions and wilders get grouped in with the wizards and sorcerors (caster based), but the psychic wrrior actually seems equivalent in raw power to a fighter. The PW's attack bonus at say, 8th level, is 2 less, and his HD are one step down, but he still has only 1 less feat than the fighter, and his powers easily augment his fighting prowess. Rem, the psyhic Warrior generally doesn't need to pre-buff, because most of his powers are used (or can be used) as "swift actions," allowing him to improve his power each round while still approaching and destroying his foe.
barrel_master 05-24-04, 02:33 PM	Originally posted by Magagumo Agreeing with Jindl, I've been working out non-associated/associated equivalencies for my monster NPCs for my campaign (for those who re clueless, the MM Appendix on upgrading monsters suggests that certain classes are worth less to a monster than another class). As far as I can tell, psions and wilders get grouped in with the wizards and sorcerors (caster based), but the psychic wrrior actually seems equivalent in raw power to a fighter. The PW's attack bonus at say, 8th level, is 2 less, and his HD are one step down, but he still has only 1 less feat than the fighter, and his powers easily augment his fighting prowess. Rem, the psyhic Warrior generally doesn't need to pre-buff, because most of his powers are used (or can be used) as "swift actions," allowing him to improve his power each round while still approaching and destroying his foe. I kind of think of the PW as to the cleric as the sorc is to the Wiz. The PW has the flexibility to manifest any of it's known powers but clerics have a wider selection of spells. However, one of the main kicking points with me is that clerics can animate dead where PW can not. Certinly, PW can fill a nice niche where they can fight + buff like a cleric but in the end I still say they fall short of a cleric. Still a nice strong class though. Also, something we have to talk about, is does Psionic focus still provide an AOO if it's quickend to a move action?
Jindl 05-24-04, 02:38 PM	Originally posted by barrel_master Also, something we have to talk about, is does Psionic focus still provide an AOO if it's quickend to a move action? Yep. It provokes the AoO because it requires concentration, a fact which does not change when it is sped up to be a move action. Can't you focus defensively? -Jindl
SnarkHunter 05-24-04, 05:19 PM	You can in fact-I think it just requires two seperate concentration checks (one at 15 to do it defensivly and the other at 20 to get the focus). At least that is what the psionics board has led me to believe :).
KerlanRayne 05-25-04, 04:32 PM	There are some things we really need to figure out right now. With Tranparency in effect, Psionics is just another form of magic. [list=1] Are skills like Psicraft and Use Psionic Device interchangeable with Spellcraft and Use Magic Device? Many powers have XP costs, will this just deduct gold from account with normal 5/1 exchange? What about Psychic Reformation? Psychic Chirurgery? Can Metamagic Rods be Used for Psionics? Can Powers be used to create DMG magic Items? You can gain Focus by taking 20, will we allow that or require taking 10? [/list=1]
Magagumo 05-25-04, 05:22 PM	This would be my suggestions for those questions: 1. Transparency for these skills should exist, no problem. 2. XP costs would be handled the same way. 3. Psychic Chirgery requires a 17th+ lvl telepath psion with the specific power you require. If we aren't allowing spellbook scribing, I would say this cannot exist either (the price is exorbitant, so its not terribly unbalanced) 4. As metapsionics requires the expenditure of psionic focus, I would see it would be extremely unbalancing to allow the Metamagic Rods to affect powers. You'll note that some metapsionics (like Empower or Enlarge) use a lessened PP cost than would be comparable for magic (2 pp= +1 level for Empower and Extend, while ENlarge has no pp expenditure). 5. Powers can be used to make Psionics based items, we would need to discuss if Animal Affinity would allow the crafting of any and all Stat-boosting items. 6. You should be able to enter the arena with a Focus already established if you can reach the DC 20 on a 10. You obviously cannot take 10 in battle w/o Non-Core abilities. Theoretically, one could take 20, as there is no penalty for failure on the Concentration check, and 2 minutes prior to a batte is fine, since the focus lasts all day (until expended or one is rendered unconscious) On a side note, Expansion Tatoos will not be a concern: There is a misprint in the book that causes it to read as "min/level", but tatoos cannot be augmeneted in any way. Thusly, a tatoo of Expansion would take a std action to activate, and would only last 1 round total, making it useless for offense. Power Stones, Dojres, and Psicrowns could allow this power to be augmented to the min/lvl state (and the 2 size increase state), but only individual with massive UMD/UPD or the actual powers can benefit.
SnarkHunter 05-25-04, 11:19 PM	One could still buy the tatoo at 20th caster level. Where'd you hear about this anyway? Speaking of 20th caster level, since we're allowing 20th level druids to give Magic Fangs to all the Monks why not have 17th level telepaths. Still could use some ground rules though. 1st all costs must be paid as normal. This makes even 1st level powers unavailable for quite some time. 2nd I would say that even though the particular psion could have used this talent to transfer powers gained through expanded knowledge (or even given the Psychic Chirurgery to another Psion!) I would still say it should be limited to only Telepath and Psion/Wilder powers. My 2c on that. Are you sure about transperancy for skills too? It looked to me liked this was for powers affecting spells and vs. versa., or an Elfs resistance to enchantment. Skills seem pretty dedicated to their stated purpose. Rods I'm not sure about. Entering the arena focused without having the requisite stat seems pretty twinkish to me, but its also fairly plausible. taking 20 having no side effects and lasting all day and what have you... I suppose I'm for it.
KerlanRayne 05-26-04, 04:53 AM	Originally posted by SnarkHunter One could still buy the tatoo at 20th caster level. Where'd you hear about this anyway? He Probably means this under Psionic Tattoos. Originally posted by SRD The manifester level of a psionic tattoo is the minimum level required to manifest the scribed power. Originally posted by SnarkHunter Are you sure about transperancy for skills too? It looked to me liked this was for powers affecting spells and vs. versa., or an Elfs resistance to enchantment. Skills seem pretty dedicated to their stated purpose. I think they did this only to make it easier for the Psionics are Different option. Originally posted by SnarkHunter Entering the arena focused without having the requisite stat seems pretty twinkish to me, but its also fairly plausible. taking 20 having no side effects and lasting all day and what have you... I suppose I'm for it. I wouldn't mind either way. KerlanRayne
Magagumo 05-26-04, 10:46 AM	The manifester level of a psionic tatoo is the minimum level to manifest the scribed power Pg. 170 of Expanded Psionics Handbook If the manifester wasn't minimum, then the power would be considered augmented (as is the case with Psi-like abilities). Remember that powers grow much more dangerous at higher manifester levels than spells do, due to augmentation. If 20th caster level tatoos existed, everyone could send 500 gp to grow 2 sizes for 20 min... and we all know how abusive that would get. Thusly, they created tatoos at their bare minimums, so no 6d12 healing tatoo or 5d8 bite of the wolf, you'll need the power stone or cast it yourself. pg 55 of the EPH states that Psicraft can be used to identify schools of magic if detect psionics is used. Since they aren't giving a complete list in this tiny paragraph on transparency, one can extrapolate that Psicraft is meant to mimic and be used as Spellcraft. After all, this is transparency here, they sould be generally equal in everyway. As I am slowly introducing Psionics into my own campaign, I've begun to work on examining powers and how transparency effects them. Edit: see next post
Magagumo 05-26-04, 01:55 PM	Magic-Psionics Transparency Questionable Powers Apopsi- Could likely erase known spells from Bards and Sorcerors, but not likely to be used due to XP cost and reversible effects Brain Lock- Also prevents spellcasting and the use of spell-like abilities Catapsi- Sp-like Abilities take Full-Round Actions to use. Suggestion for its effect: A spontaneous spellcaster who fails the Will save in the power’s area must use a spell slot 2 levels than that of the spell he/she is casting. If she does not have a slot 2 levels higher than the spell she is casting, the casting fails, using the caster’s action but not any spell slots. For a caster who prepares his spells, this power could have no effect. Or, perhaps a memorized spell of 2 lvls higher than the spell being cast is lost (randomly determined, as per negative levels and spell loss)? If he does not have a memorized spell or slot 2 levels higher than the spell he is casting, the casting fails, using the caster’s action but not any spell slots. This Will need to be discussed further. Chameleon- Provides an Enhancement bonus to Hide checks, causing it to stack with magical armor enhancements, Elixirs of Hiding & Sneaking, and Boots and Cloak of Elvenkind Control Body- Psionic Characters can still manifest powers while being controlled, but Arcane & Divine casters cannot do so w/o Still Spell. Ectoplasmic Form- DR: 10/psionics is equivalent to DR: 10/magic Intellect Fortress: Damage from spells and spell-like abilities is similarly affected, provided they incur Spell Resistance checks Leech Field: Any targeted spell that is successfully resisted gains the manifester 1 PP for every spell level (including increases from metamagic feats). Null Psionics Field: Negates magical effects as well Personality Parasite: When cast on on an arcane or divine caster, it can cast spells 3 lvls lower than what they know (so a caster with 4th lvl spells will give access to 1st lvl spells to the parasite). Parasite uses caster’s own level for determining effects, range, etc. Power Leech: Does not effect non-psionic opponents Psychic Vampire- Effects on non-psionic foes given in power description Reddopsi- Effects spells as well Tower of Iron Will- Grants SR vs. Mind-affecting spells Telepathy vs. Enchantment Easy enough to figure out: If a Telepathy power contains the heading (Charm) or (Compulsion), then it should be treated as an Enchantment effect for purposes of elven/monk resistance. Mind-affecting is not a sufficient heading to qualify for Enchantment (as Necromancy and Illusion spells also can share this designation).
KerlanRayne 05-29-04, 02:24 AM	Big Debate - Is Crystal Shard subject to DR? KerlanRayne
Magagumo 05-29-04, 12:11 PM	As it is piercing damage from a magical source, I would say it's a tough call. In standard magic, there are at least two sources of Bludgeoning damage (Meteor Swarm and Ice Storm). I presume the distinction was made for a reason, so I also think that Crystal Shard would be treated as magical, piercing (as it is a spell). Thusly, skeletons, zombies, and a few other rare beasties might resist it a bit better. Not sure if material or alignment DRs would affect it, but I could presume so, since it has the capacity to deal quite a bit of damage.
Jindl 05-29-04, 12:44 PM	When spells list a weapon damage type (ie. piercing, bludgeoning, or slashing), then the damage is considered to be done as if by a non-magical weapon of the type given. So, the 3d6 bludgeoning that comes from Ice Storm is treated like it came from a non-magical bludgeoning weapon. It would be reduced by any type of DR except DR /bludgeoning. The crystal shard damage is listed as piercing, so it will be treated like a non-magical piercing weapon and subject to all forms of DR except for DR /piercing. A spiritual weapon spell does not list a weapon type of damage, so it is not subject to any sort of DR. An acid arrow spell lists an energy type of damage, and so it is subject to energy resistance instead of DR. Hope this helps! -Jindl
Mercy 05-31-04, 03:38 PM	Questions regarding Duergar's Psi-Like Abilities: Invisibility is not listed in the EPH, is it the same as the spell? What would the display be, if any? Expansion list a duration of 1 min./level (D), but in the Augment section 3: it says it is 1 rnd/level unless you spend an additional 2 power points to make it 1 min./level, I assume the 1 rnd/level is correct for an un-augmented Expansion.
Magagumo 05-31-04, 04:34 PM	Aye, so the 1st or 2nd class level Duergar is not going to stay big for long, but he gets immediate agumentation which will last minutes by 3rd class level (Alternatively, he can later keep the rds/level for 2 size increases, deciding each time he mainfests the power until class levels enable him/her to do both at once).
SnarkHunter 05-31-04, 07:00 PM	So have we (we=teh Gaym Maztorz) decided to allow gaining of psionic focus as a prebuff without having a +10 to the skill check?
Magagumo 05-31-04, 09:37 PM	I think so, Snark, since there's no penalty for failure, thus allowing 20 to be taken. Of course, if we have any 8 or less Con builds ;) then there's an issue.
SnarkHunter 05-31-04, 10:50 PM	Hmm. Well then. Given that and the changes made to the core arena (which I am generally in favor of) I think I may switch out Improved initiative for talented.
freemoody 05-31-04, 11:10 PM	A psionic Duergar has 3 power points at 1st class level. Does it gain new power points as it gains levels if it doesn't take levels in a psionic class? Does it gain extra PP's for having a high ability score?
SnarkHunter 05-31-04, 11:11 PM	no and no.
Mercy 06-01-04, 04:30 AM	Originally posted by Magagumo Aye, so the 1st or 2nd class level Duergar is not going to stay big for long, but he gets immediate agumentation which will last minutes by 3rd class level (Alternatively, he can later keep the rds/level for 2 size increases, deciding each time he mainfests the power until class levels enable him/her to do both at once). Wouldn't he get immediate agumentation of minutes from the start since his Psi-Like Abilities have a minimum Manifester level of 3rd and he has 3 bonus power points at 1st level? The 2 size increase agumentation would require that the Duegar gain power points somehow (like through a psionic class) wouldn't it?
Magagumo 06-01-04, 07:32 PM	@Mercy You're correct about the minimum 3rd caster (so yes, it does have min duration if you want), btu Psi-like abilities are nto augementable by Power points, but instead are consdiered to be manifested with a number fo power points equal to the manifester level. So if you're a 7th class level duergar, your expansion is manifested as a 7th manifester and 7 PP are considered to have been spent on the power giving you one of the following effects: 1. Lasts 7 min 2. Manifested as a swift action and lasts 7 rounds 3. Grows 2 sizes and lasts 7 rounds As more levels are gained, these may begin to stack with one another
Mercy 06-01-04, 08:11 PM	@Magagumo - So that means if the Duergar never gains anymore power points he can only manifest at the 3rd level since that is all the power points he'll have.
Magagumo 06-01-04, 09:24 PM	No, no,n o Please listen, Mercy Psi-like Abilities have nothing to do with Power Points, period. They automatically scale with their manifester levels, becoming augmented automatically. Since Duergar's Psi-like abilities are stated to have a Manifester level equal to HD (min level 3rd), they will start to gain more power (swifter mainfestation, more size increase) as the Duergar gains more levels. I can't explain this any other way, as this is the basic reality of psi-like abilities. Just trust me, and watch Ban'zanifal, I'm carefully marking and tracking his augmentations to his Powers as he levels.
Mercy 06-01-04, 09:39 PM	Ok, I think I understand. So Jo'Li a 7th character level (1 ex-monk, 6 Druid) can expand 2 sizes for 7 rnds duration, manifest a single size expansion as a swift action for 7 rnds duration, or expand a single size for 7 min duration. And at 8th level (1 ex-monk, 7 Druid) he could combine either the 1 or 2 augmentation with the 3rd. thanks
SnarkHunter 06-02-04, 12:54 AM	Hey Mag. Can't believe I didn't notice this before but you didn't finish the quote at the top of pg 171. The manifester Level for a standard psionic tattoo is the minimum manifester level needed to manifest the power (unless otherwise specified). Unbalancing or no, the 'unless otherwise specified' suggests that the ML's for tattoos needn't always be the minimum.
Magagumo 06-02-04, 09:09 AM	@Snark Ha! That's because I was quoting p. 170 ;) But yea, I do see that there... (fear of Expansion returning quickly). Rats, just after I changed it on some many NPCs... :-P @ Mercy V. Close, but Jo'Li will need to be 9th level (1 PP for the power +6 for 2 sizes/swift +2 min/lvl=9) for the combination effects. Glad you're getting it though :)
cellardweller 06-02-04, 09:26 PM	Originally posted by SnarkHunter Unbalancing or no, the 'unless otherwise specified' suggests that the ML's for tattoos needn't always be the minimum. The good thing about 'unless otherwise specified' is that they then go on to specify NO tattoos with higher ML's. I'm not sure about the printed version, but only 3 tattoo types are specified in the SRD: 1st 50 gp (ML1) 2nd 300 gp (ML3) 3rd 750 gp (ML5) So that would preclude any tatoos of augmented expansion.
SnarkHunter 06-02-04, 11:44 PM	Well they in fact list no tattoos at all so unlike say-potions-we have little to go on. There are guidelines in the crafting section for making tattoos of any level (with the standard formulaa-natch).
Jindl 06-03-04, 12:01 AM	Here's my take on how the arena should handle these things. First, I think the Elder's need to convene to determine how much variety exists in the psionic 1-shot/charged items (power stones, tattoos, and dorjes). I think that dorjes are very similar to wands and as such should be available in the CoCo in any variety, at any level, and with any meta-feat, just like a wand is. I think power stones are akin to scrolls, and so should be available in the CoCo in any variety, with any meta-feat, and at any level, just like scrolls are. I think tattoos are like potions. As such, they should only exist at the minimum manifester level and without meta-feats. Since we do not have a defined list of tattoos, like we do for potions, then any power which meets the criteria should be allowed, but again only at the minimum manifester level and without meta-feats. That's my take on it. I think it fits the whole magic-psionic transparency well, and I think it mirrors the way that magic items are treated also. @Mag and Snark - Since you two seem so vocal about this stuff, what do you think about my suggestions? -Jindl
Magagumo 06-03-04, 12:10 AM	On Snark's side, I should point out that Potions do have higher caster levels but I agree that those might be the "ertswhile specified" category. Frankly, I'm inclined to believe all your categorizations of psionic items, and honestly believe that the tatoos cannot be augemented beyond basic ML (unless somewhre in the book ti said otherwise I suppse... perhaps that's why there isn't a list, Snark, in order to avoid the issue of super charged tatoos of expansion. Or worse, (20 min duration Force Shields which grant +8 or 9 shield AC!)
SnarkHunter 06-03-04, 12:36 AM	Hmm that's fine with me, I hade no great desire to see uber tattoos expanding widley (Though the prospect of a Gargantuan Donkey was delightful).
freemoody 06-11-04, 03:58 AM	So it's not possible to have these tatoos? Psionic tattoos: [Manifester level] Defensive precognition [20] (500) [4x enhanced, activate as swift action] Force screen [5] (125) [1x enhanced] Expansion [9] (225) [2x size, extended duration]
KerlanRayne 06-11-04, 05:43 AM	I have a question about Psionic Lions Charge. When you use this power do you get: [list=1] Up to twice movement + Full Attack (Up to twice movement + Attack) + Full Attack [/list=1] Here is a quote from the Charge Action. Originally posted by SRD Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. Here is a quote from Psionic Lion's Charge. Originally posted by SRD When you charge, you can make a full attack in the same round. It seems like it could be the second one. What do you all think? KerlanRayne
Magagumo 06-11-04, 08:34 AM	Originally posted by freemoody So it's not possible to have these tatoos? Psionic tattoos: [Manifester level] Defensive precognition [20] (500) [4x enhanced, activate as swift action] Force screen [5] (125) [1x enhanced] Expansion [9] (225) [2x size, extended duration] Fraid not, and powers taht are activated as swift/immediate actions are still std action only through tattoos, power stones, dojres, and psicrowns- if you want the speed, you need to cast them yourself :) Re: Lion's Charge: This essentially gives you the "Pounce" ability from MM, so you may charge (as a full-round action) and still get off all your attacks. The same round statement only means that you take the full attack, rather than a standard attack.
Jindl 06-11-04, 09:13 AM	Question: Is a soul knife's mind blade a force effect? Specifically, how does it affect incorporeals? -Jindl
Kazzaroth Pan'theon 06-11-04, 10:04 AM	I think the blade is just energy blade whit same stats (expect hardness) of normal short sword and the blade should be treated like that (at least in first levels). It does not ignore incorporeals ability to avoid harm (if the soulknife does not enchant his blade do that or use a feat). At least what I understood from the book (yes, I have bougth the expanded psionic book now and agreed to that the older one was quite crappy compared to present one ;)).
Magagumo 06-11-04, 04:13 PM	I have to garee with Kazz here, the ability makes no reference to incorporeal creatures, so I assume it does not auto-have the ghost touch ability.
freemoody 06-11-04, 11:08 PM	Originally posted by freemoody So it's not possible to have these tatoos? Psionic tattoos: [Manifester level] Defensive precognition [20] (500) [4x enhanced, activate as swift action] Force screen [5] (125) [1x enhanced] Expansion [9] (225) [2x size, extended duration] Originally posted by Magagumo Fraid not, Hmmm... I copied that from Zedarak's Character Sheet.
Jindl 06-11-04, 11:23 PM	@ Cat - :rofl: They caught you !!
cellardweller 06-12-04, 12:45 AM	These items were replaced with similar powerstones with the consent of both gladiators
KerlanRayne 06-19-04, 02:06 AM	Just wondering what you all thought about the interpretation in this post HERE (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&perpage=1&postid=3735802#post3735802). Very interesting. KerlanRayne
Magagumo 06-19-04, 03:35 PM	I believe the posting individual is mildy confused. From my read, it states that a power manifested from a dojre is always augmented to the max power points that could be spent (i.e. the manifester level of dojre). Thusly, an energy ray dojre of 5th manifester level would automatically deal 3d6 damage, as the power is mainfested as if 5 PP were spent. However, when one increases the manifester level by 2 points, you must treat the item as being a higher level power as well for purposes of cost (you'll note the DC often scales up accordingly). Thusly, that 5th lvl energy ray dojre would cost 5 (ML) x 3 (New power level) x 750= 11250 gp. This makes these things very pricey it seems, and emphasizes purchaing dojres of "better powers" over hyper-augmenting low-level powers. This is my read at least.
freemoody 07-04-04, 02:44 AM	I have a question about the Astral Constructs. Most of them seem to have the wrong Attack Bonus. For example, The 3rd lvl Astral Construct has a BaB of +4 and Str. of 21 so it's attack should be +9. But it's listed as +7. Am I missing something?
Druid Roxors 07-04-04, 02:59 AM	Size? Edit: Nevermind. I did a little research and found: —Base attack bonus equal to 3/4 total Hit Dice (as cleric). So the construct page on the SRD is wrong. The total attack bonus is right. The Base attack bonus displayed is wrong.
SnarkHunter 07-04-04, 03:48 AM	Near as I can tell the attacks are correct, but the base attack is off. Constructs (and astral constructs are type: Construct) have a BAB=3/4 their HD. So a 1 HD construct would have no BAB, a 3HD construct would have a +2BAB. Very odd thing to do incorrectly, I'm gonnal go look and see if they did that anywhere else.
freemoody 07-11-04, 10:45 PM	Are Psycrystals concidered Allies? Can you bring your Psycrystal and your horse to a battle?
Jindl 07-12-04, 12:19 AM	Originally posted by freemoody Are Psycrystals concidered Allies? Can you bring your Psycrystal and your horse to a battle? Since they have a MM entry (in the XPHB anyway) then they are creatures. But they are also constructs. And every single other construct except for the Inevitables are created by PC's (including psicrystals). Since it is a created construct, I would probably group it with golems, figurines of power and such, in which case it does not count as an ally. But then, if familiars count as allies, psicrystals probably should also. What do the other Elders think? -Jindl
freemoody 07-12-04, 07:27 AM	I just wanted to use it for the +3 to a skill, and to expend it's psionic focus with the Psicrystal Containment feat.
freemoody 07-12-04, 08:59 PM	I noticed in Evram the Soullesses equiptment there was a Power stone of Crystal Shard, 7th level (175gp) and a -Power stone of Astral construct, 9th level: 225gp Does anyone else think this is absoutly Insane. I think that Magagumo's idea above is sound in that an item augmented with a higher Manifester level should cost as much as an item of equal power level. So the above items sould cost 7th ML * 4th Power Level * 25 gp = 700 gps and 9th ML * 5th Power Level * 25 gp = 1125 gps
freemoody 07-12-04, 09:04 PM	How can I find the stats of my psicrystal. I've read over the section under the Psion class. Am I missing something? I'm using the SRD.
SnarkHunter 07-12-04, 09:20 PM	Augmenting is not the same thing as changing the level of the power. I'm just using the rules as they are listed.
Jindl 07-12-04, 10:07 PM	Originally posted by freemoody How can I find the stats of my psicrystal. I've read over the section under the Psion class. Am I missing something? I'm using the SRD. The psicrystal has a monster entry under Psionic Monsters in the SRD. -Jindl
Magagumo 07-13-04, 12:07 AM	Aye- Power Stones are handled just like scrolls. Dojres, however, are handled differently from wands, and follow the guidelines I summarized from the SRD itself. See, a char using an augemented wand of fireball [Rex 13, 10d6 fire] due to 1 arcane caster level, is far different from a character using a dojre of energy burst [Rex 15, 10d6 of energy type]. As the augmentation often leads to higher saves, a higher cost is paid in return.
Rabid Labrador 07-22-04, 04:03 PM	Gaah, I've finally been forced to read the Psionics portion of the SRD. I can't seem to find an explicit definition anywhere for "augmentation", or the limits of power point expenditure. Specfically I'd like to understand Daenerys Stormborn's (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&perpage=1&postid=3928761#post3928761) Energy Ray ability and its interplay with the Wild Surge class ability. If I'm inferring things correctly, I think she can expend 3 Power Points and augment at an additional +2 with Wild Surge for free, but with a 10% chance of having to spend an additional 3 points and become dazed until the end of her next turn. So that would be 5d6+5 fire or cold damage (chosen at casting time) on a short ranged touch attack, with no saving throw, up to 5 times per day? All from a class with better HP, Skills, and armor than a Sorcerer? Doesn't that seem a little out of wack, even with a limited power selection? Or is the augmentation limited by class level, making it a max of 3d6+3 per attack at a cost of 1 PP?
Ashenai 07-22-04, 05:22 PM	Augmentation is limited by manifester level, but Wild Surge gives you two bonus manifester levels for the purposes of manifesting the wildsurged power. So yes, Daenerys can do 5d6+5 damage for 3 power points. It is my considered opinion that psionics in D&D is too powerful, but not for the reason you gave (5d6+5 is 22.5 average damage, which is a lot, but not more--well, not much more--than a half-orc fighter with a greatsword and all the bells and whistles can do). My reasons should become evident when the current crop of psionic characters "come of age"; if no one else, then Moksha Jehannum will, I'm hoping, demonstrate my point amply.
Rabid Labrador 07-22-04, 06:01 PM	OK, I think I've answered my own question with the example given in an excerpt from the book: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040215a&page=4 So that would be 5d6+5 on a 30' ranged touch attack, with no save, and the energy type chosen at casting time. I'll accept that as core, and game plan for it accordingly. Now that said, does anyone else feel that isn't quite balanced with the other core classes? Let's try some analysis: A Level 3 Wilder could do 5 x 5d6+5 max damage per day. With ranged touch attacks, maybe 1/4 - 1/3 will miss completely (assuming the character is built in an intellegent manner - i.e. has a dex bonus). So let's say 1/3 miss. That's an average damage output of 75 points a day. Compare to a Level 3 sorcerer, who would get maybe 6 shocking grasps a day for 3d6 each, requiring a touch attack (+3 against metal armor). We'll give the benefit of the doubt and say that all of them are eventually discharged on an opponent. That' an average of 63 points per day, requiring melee contact. Magic missile has nice range and damage type advantages, but the damage is still way behind - 6 x 2d4+2, or 42 points / day. Burning hands has half the range, but can potentially do more total damage if it is consistantly used against multiple opponents (not much of an advantage in the coliseum, but definitely nice for adventuring). This puts it in a range of 40-140 average per day, depending on the number of opponents faced. Now I realize that spells like Color Spray and Ray of Enfeeblement are probably better than the pure damage spells ...but still, isn't the Sorcerer supposed to be the big magical damage gun? Is it really balanced to have a class with such a comparable elemental damage output that also has better skills, better HP, Cleric BAB progression, and light armor proficiency? I imagine the Psychic Enervation is supposed to balance that out, but at 10% it will only happen once per two days of full power expenditure (and will not affect damage output). Am I missing something here?
Ashenai 07-23-04, 02:18 AM	Now I realize that spells like Color Spray and Ray of Enfeeblement are probably better than the pure damage spells ...but still, isn't the Sorcerer supposed to be the big magical damage gun? Is it really balanced to have a class with such a comparable elemental damage output that also has better skills, better HP, Cleric BAB progression, and light armor proficiency? Well, Wilders sacrifice a lot to get that kind of damage output. At level 20, for instance, a Sorcerer knows 34 spells (or so). A level 20 Wilder, by comparison has... drumroll... 11 powers. A Wilder can do a lot less than a Sorcerer can. Admittedly, they can do those few things very, very well. I imagine the Psychic Enervation is supposed to balance that out, but at 10% it will only happen once per two days of full power expenditure (and will not affect damage output). It will affect damage output, because it drains 3 PP from the Wilder. If you still think Widlers are out of control, look into taking an anti-psionic feat or two. A number of them are quite effective.
Rabid Labrador 07-23-04, 10:05 AM	I think the part that really bugs me, is that with no-cost energy type substitution on the energy ray, it's essentially four different spells. I think if this were eliminated, or had a cost associated with it, I might consider it balanced.
Ashenai 07-23-04, 11:28 AM	Please don't take this as an insult, but in another thread, you just wrote that you were still trying to "digest all this Psionic mumbo-jumbo". I'm not sure that you can accurately eyeball whether the Wilder class (or the Energy Ray power) is balanced or not, based on your current level of understanding of how Psionics work. In any case, the point is moot; this is the Core Coliseum. Our options are to include psionics as written in the ExPH, or to ban them. A house rule, such as what you suggested, would, IMO, be counter-productive.
Rabid Labrador 07-23-04, 11:53 AM	Originally posted by Ashenai Please don't take this as an insult, but in another thread, you just wrote that you were still trying to "digest all this Psionic mumbo-jumbo". I'm not sure that you can accurately eyeball whether the Wilder class (or the Energy Ray power) is balanced or not, based on your current level of understanding of how Psionics work. Picking things apart is part of the process of understanding it. If you disagree with my (admitted) first impression, convice me otherwise - I'm convinceable. However, I think I do know enough to analyze the very specific case I was talking about - 3rd Lvl Wilder vs Sorcerer. If the power curves reverse at high levels, then that's poor class balancing by Wizard's own standards. Wizard's standards also say it's a bad idea to allow a caster to exceed the die of damage per spell level by class standards by so much. In any case, the point is moot; this is the Core Coliseum. Our options are to include psionics as written in the ExPH, or to ban them. A house rule, such as what you suggested, would, IMO, be counter-productive. I thought I made it clear that I was only speculating about the system in general - I accept the rules as they are for the coliseum and made no such proposal for a house rule. Also, I thought one of the whole points of the coliseum was to do rules analysis.
Magagumo 07-23-04, 07:49 PM	I return!! Yes, I think Psionics have proven (and will continue to, as I hope some of my chars will demonstrate) to be highly effective in combat. I'm going to back up Ashenai on this one- I was astonished when I first saw 3.5 Psi that a class actually had greater spell/power limitations than the sorceror, but Wilder's certainly fit the bill. Yes, a wilder has tremedous damage output, but with all the very nice powers out there (Psions certainly have been benefitting from Vigor for example) it can be difficult to choose the right power. Also, by being so limited, a Wilder can be defeated by a clever opponent who capitlizes on their limitations: Example- An energy ray focused wilder can suffer difficulties against a nimble opponent or even a fellow Wilder (massive touch ACs). I think Rabid is right that Psionics are proving to have tremedous power- but the limitatiosn continue to grow. Tactics are the key to defeating a psionic foe.
Ashenai 07-24-04, 02:33 AM	Point 1: Comparing an energy ray-Wilder to the Sorcerer in terms of pure damage is just as unfair as comparing the Sorcerer to the Wizard in the same aspect. A Sorcerer can do more damage than the Wizard, but loses out on versatility. The same thing is true when comparing the Wilder and the Sorcerer. Point 2: "Total damage output per day" is not a very meaningful figure. A ranger specializing in ranged combat can, on average, do about half the damage of an Energy Ray-Wilder, but his total daily damage output is just shy of 80,000 (assuming 14 hours of shooting). Point 3: The Sorcerer is an underpowered class. Ever wonder why practically no one plays them? I bet that even if we didn't use the ExPH, _and_ we kept the full pre-mem rules, Sorcerers still wouldn't get very popular.
Moherajikuyx 07-25-04, 12:30 PM	One thing I have to ask... Why didn't you use my suggestion of making a test thread with the purpose of play testing the psi part of the SRD before adding it to the COCO? Now, should we vote for or against them, the platyers who are using them would obviously be considered biased. Bah, back to work now.
Caterane 07-25-04, 12:50 PM	For a test arena we would have needed a lot of people and pitlords which we didn't have without taking them away from the CoCo. Playtesting isn't done with 6 players and 4 weeks. You have to confront them with every possible class, more than once, which would've resulted in a CoCoCo (Counter Core Coliseum :D). So we've incorporated them in the real CoCo - the best testing ground psionics can get. If it proves to be unbalanced in one way or another, we have means to push it in the right direction (like full memorization for wizards for example). And even if the worst comes to the worst and psionics are soooo overpowered that you cannot let them continue to exist in the CoCo, then we can always get rid of them but this scenario is highly unlikely to happen. Coments about psionics are no more than assumptions at this point. They've proven to be effective ...at low levels ...and against certain foes. We have to wait and see what happens once they enter mid and high levels. And again: testing psionics on such a grand scale wouldn't have been possible without using the CoCo.
Jindl 07-25-04, 12:56 PM	@Rabid Lab - What I can tell you, and this will be a problem many Wilders will face, is that at higher levels versatility is more important than raw damage. That's the main reason why spellcasters tend to do better than non-spellcasters. Magic gives them additional versatility. Think of Wilders as kind of like Barbarians. They can dish out massive close range damage, but they have few other options. At low levels, this is killer, because fights can be decided by a single close range hit. But at higher levels, versatility will become far more important than raw damage. And range will become more important, especially since higher level gladiators use a lot of powerful medium/long range attacks. Whether its your cleric using hold person, your wizard using black tentacles, or your archer using readied actions, there are plenty of long range attacks that can destroy a wilder. It's not about being extremely good at one thing. Its about being very good at a lot of things. Wilders can easily do the first, but have a much tougher time with the second. It's not impossible to build a versatile wilder; it's just difficult. More difficult than to build a versatile wizard. -Jindl
Ashenai 07-25-04, 01:33 PM	I think you were aiming that towards Rabid Labrador, not me. I am of the opinion that Wilders are more or less balanced. :)
Jindl 07-25-04, 05:59 PM	Yes, thank you. Corrected.
freemoody 08-01-04, 02:08 AM	Can you use Metamagic rods on powers?
SnarkHunter 08-01-04, 02:45 AM	My inclination is to say no, despite the full (or mostly full) transperancy I'm not sure how one could apply the rods exactly.
KerlanRayne 08-01-04, 12:58 PM	Well since Sorcerers are still limited by the full round action, you could just apply it to psionics and still require they expend focus. KerlanRayne
SnarkHunter 08-01-04, 04:41 PM	Really? I suppose that makes sense, I thought rods might have gotten around that for sorcs.
KerlanRayne 08-01-04, 09:01 PM	Quoted from SRD: Possession of a metamagic rod does not confer the associated feat on the owner, only the ability to use the given feat a specified number of times per day. A sorcerer still must take a full-round action when using a metamagic rod, just as if using a metamagic feat he possesses. If we allow crossover with metamagic rods, I would think we would have to do the same with the Metamagic/psionic feats. But only for equivelent feats, ie Empower, Enlarge, Maximize, etc. Seperate feats would really hurt the Cerebremancer where the Mystic Thurge has no problem. KerlanRayne
Jindl 08-01-04, 10:40 PM	This is just my opinion, of course, but since there are seperate feats for metapsionics, I don't think the metamagic feat rods should crossover. Also, since the XPHB covers the psionic uses of magic items like pearls of power and dull grey ioun stones and stuff, but they mention no psionic use of metamagic rods, I would assume that the rods aren't meant to cross over. -Jindl
KerlanRayne 08-02-04, 01:32 AM	Quoted from SRD Many magic items can aid psionic characters. The table below provides some possibilities. That means it's not a complete list. I think they made different names for feats and skills (ie Psicraft) and powers instead of spells, just to make the "Psionics are Different" option easier. So you don't have to say "Well it's Spellcraft but it's a special kind of Spellcraft that only works for Psionic spells." KerlanRayne
Moherajikuyx 08-02-04, 08:44 AM	You have a good point, but as you don't negate my point, do we both have one? I consider the possibility of bias quite a dangerous thing, given past events. Originally posted by Caterane For a test arena we would have needed a lot of people and pitlords which we didn't have without taking them away from the CoCo. Playtesting isn't done with 6 players and 4 weeks. You have to confront them with every possible class, more than once, which would've resulted in a CoCoCo (Counter Core Coliseum :D). So we've incorporated them in the real CoCo - the best testing ground psionics can get. If it proves to be unbalanced in one way or another, we have means to push it in the right direction (like full memorization for wizards for example). And even if the worst comes to the worst and psionics are soooo overpowered that you cannot let them continue to exist in the CoCo, then we can always get rid of them but this scenario is highly unlikely to happen. Coments about psionics are no more than assumptions at this point. They've proven to be effective ...at low levels ...and against certain foes. We have to wait and see what happens once they enter mid and high levels. And again: testing psionics on such a grand scale wouldn't have been possible without using the CoCo.