Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ashenai 07-19-04, 03:33 PM	I have a rules problem, one that--I feel--the core rules don't properly address. If anyone could clear it up, I'd be much obliged. Let us have two gladiators in the arena. Alice is a rogue, and would like to melee attack Bob the mage. Let's assume both have normal 30' movement speeds. However, let's say Bob never moves from his starting point, and simply readies an action each round to cast (say) Acid Arrow at Alice if he spots her. First question: Assuming that Alice has no magic at her disposal, does Alice have any chance whatsoever to hit Bob first with a melee weapon? Obviously, as far as I can see, the answer would have to be no. There is no cover within 30', and you can't charge from behind cover, so Alice would have to spend a round getting within melee range. Second (and real) question: same situation, but what if Alice had a massive movement speed, let's say 200'? Can she melee attack Bob _now_, before he gets off his readied spell? Obviously, she could hide at (13,-4), for instance, then move next to Bob and attack. However, according to our current sneaking rules, Bob would be guaranteed to spot her, since she isn't ending her movement behind cover. Am I right in thinking that Bob is _always_ guaranteed to get his spell off first, in such an event? And when, exactly, does he notice her? The moment she leaves cover? When she ends her movement and is within 5' of him? In the latter case, can he just make a 5-foot-step as part of his readied action, blast Alice, then laugh at her, since he's out of melee range again and she would have to use up her second move action to get to him?
Dawnlord 07-20-04, 07:58 AM	...since she isn't ending her movement behind cover...Never understood this rule. I really think that hiding ends in the moment you have no cover/concealment anymore. I think this goes even further: -Snipped from Hide@SRD ... It’s practically impossible (–20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.-Snipped from Spot@SRD Every time you have a chance to spot something in a reactive manner you can make a Spot check without using an action.So if you successfully reach your opponent unnoticed (by having cover/concealment ALL THE TIME) and want to attack him, you have to make a new hide with -20 to your check. If the reactive spot chech succeeds the ready action will happen before the attack. Just MHO
Caterane 07-20-04, 09:19 AM	21 viewers and no one answered (xept Dawnlord)? If he stays in the open on his starting position Alice can sneak up to him if he doesn't spot her before that (shouldn't be too difficult in a rogue vs mage fight). The rules say that you can hide within 1ft per rank of a cover. However, we made a little houserule due to the lack of proper hiding places that you can hide as soon as you end your movement behind a cover and pass your hide/MS check. If these checks succeeded you are considered hidden from her, and if you sneak up to her next round - or snipe - and pass another hide/MS check then the mage is considered flatfooted and Alice can sneak attack him. Basically, we are just virtually extending cover from your hiding spot to the target => as long as you can reach him in one round, he does not spot you (unless he makes his spot/listen checks of course). And of course you can just stay behind cover and snipe which is a sneak attack too but you have to make a -20 hide check to hide again after the shot. Another way to get sneakattacks without being invisible is bluff which is not that bad considering that no one (except Ixidor) has ranks in Sense Motive. Improved feint and try to get as much damage as possible into one strike; we haven't seen that before here (Hasn't Snark had such a character?). Flanking - apparently not possible without an ally - is another way to get sneak attacks. A summon monster might work quite well, but a leadership ally is all the better. Or a leadership ally that summon allies to flank. I think that's it. If I forgot something, tell me.
Hatzinger 07-20-04, 10:01 AM	My new char, "Sunshine" (female drow Rog1) will be a big Bluffer/Feinter, Cat. But with only core rules, the Bluffing thing is only half as funny as it should be... And with a bag of XYZ (gray, rust and other one), you can summon your own flanking allies for little money. And wait a minute... i always thoughed (correct spelling?!?) that you need cover/concealment in order to hide, not to stay hidden? so once you successfully hide for the first time, you can go out into the open. Did i read this rule completely wrong the whole time???
Ashenai 07-20-04, 12:50 PM	Thanks Cat, that clears things up. :)
Druid Roxors 07-20-04, 05:59 PM	The way I understand it is: If you want to hide, you must end your turn within cover/concealment. If you want to move Hidden, you must begin and end your turn in cover and succeed your hide check with a -Mod for your speed and a +mod for the closest you are to your enemy. (thats a -mod to spot)