Mutiple Weapon Fighting Question. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Mutiple Weapon Fighting Question. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Aramil Dunskar
09-05-04, 07:26 PM Hey eveyrone,

I've been looking at monsters for some ideas on my character to replace both of my Ernies since I have decided to drop those characters and come up with an interesting and powerful build. As I was looking I happened to come across some creatures with multiple limbs, and it got me wondering. Do creatures with multiple limbs take any pelanties when they use two bows at once?

I think they might due to the multiweapon fighting feat, but then again, you aren't actually using an off-hand weapon now are you? So let me know if there are actually any penalties, this will narrow down my hunt for a new character depending on the answer. Thanks

-AD
Caterane
09-05-04, 07:44 PM Billy, do me a favor and don't open a thread when it isn't necessary. This is a simple question with a simple answer that can be asked in the Tavern or the Rules debate thread. Well, now that it's open, use it but for the future...

Thanks.
MotherBast
09-06-04, 08:49 AM Well, acording to MO, he wants questions like this to be asked on their own threads. His logic is that anything this simple can be asked on its own thread, and answered, and then the tread will eventually fall away do to not being posted on, and will not hang around to clutter the boards, or the tavern, or other threads that recive a lot of use. He said that is the reason he wanted the CoCo to have its own board, so that thread like the tavern, wich is 160 pages long, wouldn't be necessary any more.

Anyway, that aside, to answer your question, page 160 of the PHB says the same rules apply to weapons trown from each hand. trown = ranged.... bow = ranged, so the logical step would be to assume that bows do indeed suffer the same penaltys. Bows are also two-handed weapons, so your probably looking at -6/-10 with no feats, and -4/-4 with Multiweapon fighting feat.

Its also worth mentioning that I don't think the feats are ment to allow multi-bow use, but I couldn't find anything that specificly said it wasen't allowed. I would still be aginst it, but I don't have any rules to stand on at the moment.
Caterane
09-06-04, 01:11 PM Yes Motherbast, but Jindl, Tellish, and I want to keep discussion focused so that members who don't show up frequently don't have to browse through several threads. It also keeps the primary topics on top. Besides, it's simpler to have a question vanish in the Tavern than wait until the thread is on page 2.

Anyway, doesn't matter now and isn't that bad. Just wanted to mention it.

What are the penalties for a Thri-Kreen using 2 bows? Are they reduced with multiattack or multiweapon fighting?
Magagumo
09-06-04, 01:33 PM For multiple bow use, look to the MMIII articles on the wiz board, where the "Arrow demon" wields two bows at once. They have 4 arms, and have a write-up as to how a specific special ability reduces the penalty to 0. In theory, it should list the normal penalty as well...
Jindl
09-06-04, 04:35 PM Make it even simpler. Look up the Xill in the MM. It uses 2 longbows at once with the multiweapon fighting feat. The penalties are -4/-4.

-Jindl
MotherBast
09-06-04, 05:33 PM yeah, as I stated above, without multiweapon fighting, the penaltys are -6/-10, and with they are -4/-4.
Aramil Dunskar
09-06-04, 07:57 PM Ah, well thanks for the info guys.

Sorry about creating the thread Cat, I'll remember not to do it in the future. Now I have to decide if using two bows and taking the penalty will be worth it. To bad there isn't an Improved Multiweapon Attack feat or something like that......

-AD
Magagumo
09-06-04, 08:03 PM Not Corewise at least ;)
Caterane
09-06-04, 08:15 PM Can you use rapid shot to get 4 attacks instead of two, for a total penalty of -6? Else, using 2 bows would be inferior to using rapid shot with one bow.
Magagumo
09-06-04, 08:20 PM I would say not, as one does not get two extra atatcks when hasted while wielding two melee weapons (Speed weapons being another matter entirely). Frankly, it's a generally complex idea, only really suited for a ton of ranged attacks that might not hit.. I think Manyshot & Rapid Shot more than compensate adequately, but that's just me.
Jindl
09-06-04, 08:24 PM Can you use rapid shot to get 4 attacks instead of two, for a total penalty of -6? Else, using 2 bows would be inferior to using rapid shot with one bow.

No. Rapid shot only allows one extra attack with a full attack using the primary weapon.

Rapid shot can be used in combination with two weapon fighting and thrown weapons, it works the same way here.

@AD - As far as I know, there are only 2 creatures with an LA that have 4 arms. They Sahuagin mutants (min ECL 5) and the Xill (min ECL 9). The Sahuagin is an aquatic, water dependent creature, who can stay on land for 1 hour per 2 points of Con. I'm not sure how water dependency will be handled in the CoCo. Regardless, both races require a substantial investment of credits (9 for the Sahuagin mutant, 18 for the Xill). Just some food for thought.

-Jindl
Caterane
09-06-04, 10:04 PM I think he wanted to play a 4-armed Thri-Kreen which costs 6 credits.
Jindl
09-06-04, 11:27 PM I think he wanted to play a 4-armed Thri-Kreen which costs 6 credits.

Not in the SRD. Not allowed.

We allow only the psionic stuff that is in the SRD, remember?

-Jindl
Aramil Dunskar
09-07-04, 03:18 PM Not in the SRD. Not allowed.

We allow only the psionic stuff that is in the SRD, remember?

-Jindl

Oh.... well then that really narrows the field down.....

*Goes off to think of a new character possibility*

-AD
Caterane
09-07-04, 03:43 PM Not in the SRD. Not allowed.

We allow only the psionic stuff that is in the SRD, remember?

-Jindl

I see no problem in allowing Aramil to play the Thri-Kreen. He will incorporate all vital race information on his sheet and this isn't a big thing.

I'd say let him play the thing.
Magagumo
09-07-04, 03:49 PM Aye, and there are a few other non-SRD items we allow in (like War Mind for Zed... and eventually Ban I hope), provided sufficient information has been given, and people with access to the books validate what is listed.
Jindl
09-07-04, 03:58 PM Aye, and there are a few other non-SRD items we allow in (like War Mind for Zed... and eventually Ban I hope), provided sufficient information has been given, and people with access to the books validate what is listed.

The War Mind PrC is in the SRD, follow this link. (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/psionicWarMind.html)

@Cat - It's not a question of whether the race will be sufficiently documented, although that does raise some problems for his pitlords. The issue is that is not Core. We defined Core as the 3 Core books + the SRD psionics section.

-Jindl
MotherBast
09-07-04, 06:07 PM I would have to agree with Jindl here. Even with the info on the sheet, I would be oposed to allowing any non-SRD material in, as there is simply no way to varafy the info for pitlords like myself, who arn't going to go out and buy a EPHB of their very own.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Aramil Dunskar 09-05-04, 07:26 PM	Hey eveyrone, I've been looking at monsters for some ideas on my character to replace both of my Ernies since I have decided to drop those characters and come up with an interesting and powerful build. As I was looking I happened to come across some creatures with multiple limbs, and it got me wondering. Do creatures with multiple limbs take any pelanties when they use two bows at once? I think they might due to the multiweapon fighting feat, but then again, you aren't actually using an off-hand weapon now are you? So let me know if there are actually any penalties, this will narrow down my hunt for a new character depending on the answer. Thanks -AD
Caterane 09-05-04, 07:44 PM	Billy, do me a favor and don't open a thread when it isn't necessary. This is a simple question with a simple answer that can be asked in the Tavern or the Rules debate thread. Well, now that it's open, use it but for the future... Thanks.
MotherBast 09-06-04, 08:49 AM	Well, acording to MO, he wants questions like this to be asked on their own threads. His logic is that anything this simple can be asked on its own thread, and answered, and then the tread will eventually fall away do to not being posted on, and will not hang around to clutter the boards, or the tavern, or other threads that recive a lot of use. He said that is the reason he wanted the CoCo to have its own board, so that thread like the tavern, wich is 160 pages long, wouldn't be necessary any more. Anyway, that aside, to answer your question, page 160 of the PHB says the same rules apply to weapons trown from each hand. trown = ranged.... bow = ranged, so the logical step would be to assume that bows do indeed suffer the same penaltys. Bows are also two-handed weapons, so your probably looking at -6/-10 with no feats, and -4/-4 with Multiweapon fighting feat. Its also worth mentioning that I don't think the feats are ment to allow multi-bow use, but I couldn't find anything that specificly said it wasen't allowed. I would still be aginst it, but I don't have any rules to stand on at the moment.
Caterane 09-06-04, 01:11 PM	Yes Motherbast, but Jindl, Tellish, and I want to keep discussion focused so that members who don't show up frequently don't have to browse through several threads. It also keeps the primary topics on top. Besides, it's simpler to have a question vanish in the Tavern than wait until the thread is on page 2. Anyway, doesn't matter now and isn't that bad. Just wanted to mention it. What are the penalties for a Thri-Kreen using 2 bows? Are they reduced with multiattack or multiweapon fighting?
Magagumo 09-06-04, 01:33 PM	For multiple bow use, look to the MMIII articles on the wiz board, where the "Arrow demon" wields two bows at once. They have 4 arms, and have a write-up as to how a specific special ability reduces the penalty to 0. In theory, it should list the normal penalty as well...
Jindl 09-06-04, 04:35 PM	Make it even simpler. Look up the Xill in the MM. It uses 2 longbows at once with the multiweapon fighting feat. The penalties are -4/-4. -Jindl
MotherBast 09-06-04, 05:33 PM	yeah, as I stated above, without multiweapon fighting, the penaltys are -6/-10, and with they are -4/-4.
Aramil Dunskar 09-06-04, 07:57 PM	Ah, well thanks for the info guys. Sorry about creating the thread Cat, I'll remember not to do it in the future. Now I have to decide if using two bows and taking the penalty will be worth it. To bad there isn't an Improved Multiweapon Attack feat or something like that...... -AD
Magagumo 09-06-04, 08:03 PM	Not Corewise at least ;)
Caterane 09-06-04, 08:15 PM	Can you use rapid shot to get 4 attacks instead of two, for a total penalty of -6? Else, using 2 bows would be inferior to using rapid shot with one bow.
Magagumo 09-06-04, 08:20 PM	I would say not, as one does not get two extra atatcks when hasted while wielding two melee weapons (Speed weapons being another matter entirely). Frankly, it's a generally complex idea, only really suited for a ton of ranged attacks that might not hit.. I think Manyshot & Rapid Shot more than compensate adequately, but that's just me.
Jindl 09-06-04, 08:24 PM	Can you use rapid shot to get 4 attacks instead of two, for a total penalty of -6? Else, using 2 bows would be inferior to using rapid shot with one bow. No. Rapid shot only allows one extra attack with a full attack using the primary weapon. Rapid shot can be used in combination with two weapon fighting and thrown weapons, it works the same way here. @AD - As far as I know, there are only 2 creatures with an LA that have 4 arms. They Sahuagin mutants (min ECL 5) and the Xill (min ECL 9). The Sahuagin is an aquatic, water dependent creature, who can stay on land for 1 hour per 2 points of Con. I'm not sure how water dependency will be handled in the CoCo. Regardless, both races require a substantial investment of credits (9 for the Sahuagin mutant, 18 for the Xill). Just some food for thought. -Jindl
Caterane 09-06-04, 10:04 PM	I think he wanted to play a 4-armed Thri-Kreen which costs 6 credits.
Jindl 09-06-04, 11:27 PM	I think he wanted to play a 4-armed Thri-Kreen which costs 6 credits. Not in the SRD. Not allowed. We allow only the psionic stuff that is in the SRD, remember? -Jindl
Aramil Dunskar 09-07-04, 03:18 PM	Not in the SRD. Not allowed. We allow only the psionic stuff that is in the SRD, remember? -Jindl Oh.... well then that really narrows the field down..... Goes off to think of a new character possibility -AD
Caterane 09-07-04, 03:43 PM	Not in the SRD. Not allowed. We allow only the psionic stuff that is in the SRD, remember? -Jindl I see no problem in allowing Aramil to play the Thri-Kreen. He will incorporate all vital race information on his sheet and this isn't a big thing. I'd say let him play the thing.
Magagumo 09-07-04, 03:49 PM	Aye, and there are a few other non-SRD items we allow in (like War Mind for Zed... and eventually Ban I hope), provided sufficient information has been given, and people with access to the books validate what is listed.
Jindl 09-07-04, 03:58 PM	Aye, and there are a few other non-SRD items we allow in (like War Mind for Zed... and eventually Ban I hope), provided sufficient information has been given, and people with access to the books validate what is listed. The War Mind PrC is in the SRD, follow this link. (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/psionicWarMind.html) @Cat - It's not a question of whether the race will be sufficiently documented, although that does raise some problems for his pitlords. The issue is that is not Core. We defined Core as the 3 Core books + the SRD psionics section. -Jindl
MotherBast 09-07-04, 06:07 PM	I would have to agree with Jindl here. Even with the info on the sheet, I would be oposed to allowing any non-SRD material in, as there is simply no way to varafy the info for pitlords like myself, who arn't going to go out and buy a EPHB of their very own.