Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Coyote Skyheart 03-13-04, 09:01 PM	Reference DMG pg. 199, under the bolded heading of Limited Use Items. If you're playing a one-shot random dungeon, one-use items cost 5x their normal price and charged items have 1/5 as many charges. In a one shot adventure, in which it doesn't matter whether you use up your items, one-use and charged items are a lot better than in a regular campaign. In a one-shot dungeon, a one-use item is as good as a 1/day item because you'll be able to use each item once. This "5 times" rule balances the one-use and charged items so they don't dominate the random dungeon. Is this rule in effect? SHOULD this rule be in effect? This is probably something that will come up again. So maybe I should have placed this in the FAQ thread. I don't know, however it shouldn't be in the FAQ thread yet if a debate begins. I think its a good question.
SnarkHunter 03-13-04, 09:07 PM	Given that most of us hope our characters will be going on to many further adventures in the arena, I don't think that's to likely. That is, even though they'll only have one fight a day that isn't the only fight the gladiators will have.
Caterane 03-13-04, 10:15 PM	...at least not if you`re called Dr'krel Moorning...eh...Dra'kial Meening...Dkr'Rll Mooing....no, Dakarel Mending.....Drk Mng....D'a'krle Meebmeeb... ah nevermind
Arstimis 03-13-04, 11:01 PM	I dont really think this is a good rule, as its not just a one shot, because players level up and move one. One thing i think should change is there should be a time set into the arena Players that use things that are usuable 1/year (i actually dont think there is anything like this) can use it once a week. Items like this are usually more powerful, because of the limited use, but in a game where time is not a factor, the item becomes unbalanced from its previous form
Coyote Skyheart 03-13-04, 11:51 PM	Reverse of that? Interesting. Well I started thinking of this when I began shopping for my character. I began wondering, what's the point of crafting wonderous items? cloak of elvenkind: adds +5 hide cost 2500 gp. 7/10 = 1750 (if it were a +10 cloak, it would be 10k) elixir of hiding: adds +10 hide for 1 hour x10 it will be good from lvl 2 to say lvl 8 (losing 3 fights) using it once per fight. cost 2500 gp. 7/10 = 1750 Hm. Why bother getting the cloak? Twice the bonus, and I'm set till lvl 8! If one compares it to a continuous item of equal bonus (+10), the price ratio is 1:4 A quarter the price. That's a lot of money one is saving.
SnarkHunter 03-14-04, 12:03 AM	It saves money but it costs time. I find myself frequently trying to shave every precious round off my tactics, for Bilo anyway. At high levels anyway it seems like delay can bring death... But yeah if you want stock up, they should serve quite well.
Jindl 03-14-04, 01:40 AM	Yeah, the time factor is a big thing. My druid took quicken spell, just to speed up his buffing (and I am quite pleased with the effects, even if Agamemnon isn't.) Also, the elixer is dispellable as part of a normal targetted dispel magic (with a low caster level), while the cloak would not be subject to dispel magic (unless specifically targetted). And eventually, you'll wish you hadn't spent so much on potions, right Rito / Brackin / Kiowen ?? -Jindl
Arstimis 03-14-04, 02:29 AM	Originally posted by Jindl And eventually, you'll wish you hadn't spent so much on potions, right Rito / Brackin / Kiowen ?? -Jindl I barely spend anything on potions. I use scrolls :D I think there should be a time factor for the arena though. some thoughts... A wizard loses a familiar and has to wait some time proportional to a year, say.. a month. That would make it a bit more realistic campaign wise, but wouldnt limit the wizard in the long run. Crafting things actually take a week. Once you get the money, say on sunday because thats the day your winning fight was posted, then you can start the week, and it will be done next sunday. I dont know..i was hoping someone wiser would have something to say about this
MotherBast 03-14-04, 07:58 AM	Actually, Brackin has saved somewhere along the lines of 40k by using potions and not buing +4 stat up items. Potions are 300gp a pop. Stat up items are 16k for the same effect. Untill Brackin just has money to waist, it would just be silly to by the items.
Jindl 03-14-04, 11:06 AM	Of course, if Brackin had bought items, he wouldn't have to fear dispel magic so much. Nor would he need 7 rounds of potion drinking to buff himself. -Jindl
Nivek Loneshadow 03-14-04, 07:39 PM	I think this is at least a valid question. I asked myself if knowing too much got me killed after my first fight. I simply didn't consider being able to afford to be able to down two AC boosting potions. As the rules are now potions appear more powerful than buying armor. I'm not trying to sound like a sore loser here. "Die and learn" I always say! I'm just very curious to what those who are experienced with the CoCo think of this topic.
Coyote Skyheart 03-14-04, 08:30 PM	I noticed that dispel magic is listed as a balancing factor. Well...not really. Five core classes don't have access to it. Of those, one has the use magic device class skill. So four core classes can't counter one-use item effects. Buff potions aren't the only one-use items either. Here's an example. Incense of meditation. For a mere 4,900 gp All memorized spells are maximized for a day. The corresponding value increases at higher levels, but lets keep it at 9th lvl cleric with an 18 wisdom. 23 spells (not including 0-level)> Say half will be beneficially affected by a maximization. 12 spells. That's equal to 4 rods of maximization. All of which must be use-activated. (the incense doesn't require an action). A lesser rod is 14k for 3rd lvl spells or lower. Rods: 14k x4 = 56k Incense: 4.9k x(10 fights) = 49k Good for 10 fights or so, doesn't require actions to activate, or an available hand, or storage. There's others. Figurines of wonderous power, for instance.
xeno_eleusis 03-14-04, 09:35 PM	Originally posted by Nivek Loneshadow I simply didn't consider being able to afford to be able to down two AC boosting potions. As the rules are now potions appear more powerful than buying armor... "Die and learn" I always say!Potions would have helped your AC in a real table top game as well. Tactics that envolved, readying ranged attacks against approach, and then a full round of running away or moving out of reach would have done well for ranged tactics. Not as entertaining but for ranged fighters, it's all about finesse. Another good tactic would be (paired with point blank shot) lay on your back and shoot at your melee attacker. You get a +4 AC and a -4 to hit but with point blank shot you get a +1 damage and a +1 to hit. Originally posted by Coyote Skyheart Rods: 14k x4 = 56k Incense: 4.9k x(10 fights) = 49kWhy would someone Maximize all thier spells with rods. Maybe one or two spells and a rod will maximize 3 spells and is reusable. Rods: 14k x1 = 14k unlimited uses (10 fights) Incense: 4.9k x (10 fights) = 49k This disscussion is distorted. My understanding for CoCo is character build optimization. The idea here is not to win. It's not to have a one-shot dungeon crawl. It's to post effective builds (that can be used in a table top game) and have disscussions about optimizing the build. Testing two builds against each other, and the disscussion of important rules that may come into play. I participate because of the invaluable experience gained by looking up and understanding rulings for fights. If you're playing a one-shot random dungeon, one-use items cost 5x their normal price and charged items have 1/5 as many charges. In a one shot adventure, in which it doesn't matter whether you use up your items, one-use and charged items are a lot better than in a regular campaign. In a one-shot dungeon, a one-use item is as good as a 1/day item because you'll be able to use each item once. This "5 times" rule balances the one-use and charged items so they don't dominate the random dungeon.This rule seems fair. I would definately encourage it if this were a one-shot dungeon crawl thread. The idea here (in my own opinion) is that the characters I find effective, I will play in a real table top game someday. There would be no problem in a table top game if I had a second level wizard who wanted to blast all the bad guys with a scroll of fireball. I am only restricted by the caster level DC. Now if that same character went on a one-shot dungeon crawl, my DM would still have a chance to make a ruling on using the 5x gp pricing since this rule is only a suggested rule, "You're free to limit what magic items characters can choose when they create charcters of higher levels...", pg199 DMG For purposes of character optimization, imposing this rule would limit builds more than it would balance these fights. Honestly, there are a lot of Core rules that are just broken, magic items that are just too gross, or tactics that are boring but extremely effective. I don't think that CoCo should be exploited because of these things. Because they are Core rules, people could run them in a real table top game, and so they are allowed in the CoCo if for no other reason than to be a topic of disscussion.
Magagumo 03-15-04, 02:48 PM	Have to agree with Snark and Jindl on time issues... Zorander and Bruno are v. effective characters, and rarely waste time with non-reusable buffs... I always have used reusable items, and while this means that not using the Potion of Cat's Grace may have cost me a win, it also means I only lose 2-15 arrows whn a decent fight goes sour. Everyone has their own style of play, but if one needs to move quickly and not fear Dispel Magic, then you really have to go with permanant items. On the note of Dispel Magic not being a balancing factor, I ask you to consider the entire 13th level tier. I believe everyone in that level can cast Dispel Magic, to varying effect (lower or higher caster levels). Also, most of those characters have Rings of Counterspelling w/ Dispel Magic in them, further emphasizing my point.
Hatzinger 03-15-04, 03:49 PM	I can see a big difference between the arena and my real games. In my games, i usually have permanent items for boosts, with an occasional scroll or potion as addition. In the arena, i usually have scrolls or potions with an occasional permanent item as addition. This shifts the balance of power, as characters are able to get more buffs for their money. Yes, there are negative side-effects like the time you have to spend to buff and so on (raising the question if itīs a better tactic to do so), but that doesnīt change the fact that you DO get more buffs for the money. So the arena creates, simply by being what it is, itīs own minmax-system, different from the minmax-system that exists in standard games. The question is if we are able to test standard-game builds with this minmax system. The answer is no; instead, we are able to test arena builds. The next question would be what people want the arena to be; a place to test standard-game or arena-game builds. I propose a vote on this topic, as i can see that this topic is deeply affecting the way we minmax our characters here. If we know what we want, we can decide on how to get there.
Arstimis 03-15-04, 04:06 PM	Another thing is that taking the time to buff isnt even a problem, someone could just cast rope trick or another one of those spells, and have 10 rounds of buffing time