Post/Author/DateTime	Post
hogarth 03-15-07, 12:59 PM	This is a guild operation for Jonathon Raven Gravebound to assault the Stygian Strikers. If you are not Abyssal Stalker or hogarth, please do not post here. All comments from the peanut gallery should go in the Tavern or Fight of the Week thread. Results: Jonathon destroys the clay golem guarding the red dragons' lair and sacks it. [Success] Prebuffs/Ongoing Effects: none Items Used: potion of mage armor, tattoo of chameleon, tattoo of force screen, 34 arrows (21 recovered) Jonathon gains 3471 xp and 5785 gp. Automatic skill package: Ambush Jonathon Raven Gravebound Servant of the Vampire God Gender and Race: Male Vampire Spawn Size and Type: Medium Intelligent Undead Height and Weight: 4'7'' 110lb Age: 33 Alignment: Lawful Evil ECL: 9 (LA +4/Undead 4/Monk 1) Experience: 42860/45000 Guild: East Habari Trading Company[/CENTER] Attributes STR 26 (+8) [16 pts] [18 Base, +6 Racial, +2 Enhancement] +2 expansion DEX 18 (+4) [4 pts] [15 Base, +4 Racial, +1 4th level] -2 expansion CON - INT 14 (+2) [4 pts] [12 Base, +2 Racial] WIS 18 (+4) [6 pts] [14 Base, +2 Racial, +2 Enhancement] CHA 20 (+5) [6 pts] [14 Base, +4 Racial, +2 Enhancement] Miscellaneous Statistics Hit Points: 38 Fast Healing 2 [5 HD] [5d12] Armor Class (Normal): 22 -2 expansion [10 Base, +4 dex, +4 wis, +3 Natural, +1 Enhancement] Armor Class (Touch): 18 -2 expansion [10 Base, +4 dex, +4 wis] Armor Class (Flat-Footed): 18 -1 expansion [10 Base, +4 wis, +3 Natural, +1 Enhancement] Initiative: +8 [+4 Dex, +4 Feat] Base Attack Bonus: +2 [+2 Undead, +0 Monk] Grapple: +14 +5 expansion [+2 BAB, +8 Str, +4 Feat] Speed (Land): 30 ft [30 Base, +0 Enhancement] Speed (Flight): 20 ft, perfect maneuverability Gaseous Form [20 Base, +0 Enhancement] Speed (Climb): 20 ft [20 Base, +0 Enhancement] Weight Carried: 26.6 lbs, light encumbrance [0-306 (Light), 307-613 (Medium), 614-920 (Heavy)] Damage Reduction: 5/silver [Racial] Saves Fortitude: +3 [- Con, +1 Undead, +2 Monk] Reflex: +9 [+4 Dex, +1 Undead, +2 Monk, +2 Feat] -1 expansion Will: +10 [+4 Wis, +4 Undead, +2 Monk] Immune to all mind-affecting effects, poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, and death effects. Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects. Immune to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless). Melee Attacks Slam +10, 1d6+12 plus energy drain, (20/x2), bludgeoning [+8 Str, +2 BAB] Flurry of Blows +8/+8, 1d6+8, (20/x2), bludgeoning [+8 Str, +2 BAB, -2 Flurry] Flurry of Blows with MW Kama and MW Silver Siangham +9/+9, 1d6+8/1d6+7, (20/x2), slashing/piercing Ranged Attacks +1 Mighty (+8) Composite Longbow +7, 1d8+9, (20/x3), Range 110 ft, piercing [4 Dex, 2 BAB, 1 Enhancement] Melee Attacks Slam +10, 1d8+13 plus energy drain, (20/x2), bludgeoning [+9 Str, +2 BAB, -1 Size] Flurry of Blows +8/+8, 1d8+9, (20/x2), bludgeoning [+9 Str, +2 BAB, -2 Flurry, -1 Size] Flurry of Blows with MW Kama and MW Silver Siangham +9/+9, 1d8+9/1d8+8, (20/x2), slashing/piercing Ranged Attacks +1 Mighty (+8) Composite Longbow +6, 2d6+9, (20/x3), Range 110 ft, (piercing) [+3 Dex, 2 BAB, -1 Size, 1 Enhancement] Special Attacks & Abilities Blood Drain (Ex): 1d4 Con damage on a successfull pin, gain 5 temporary hit points for one hour Domination (Su); Will DC17: as the spell Dominate Person, range 30ft Energy Drain (Su): bestow 1 negative level on a successfull slam attack, gain 5 temporary hit points for one hour +2 Turn Resistance Damage Reduction 5/silver Darkvision 60ft Fast Healing 2 (Ex) Gaseous Form (Su) Resistance to Cold 10 Resistance to Electricity 10 Spider Climb (Ex): as the spell Spider Climb Undead Traits Flurry of Blows Feats AlertnessBonus Improved InitiativeBonus Lightning ReflexesBonus Martial Weapon Proficiency (Longbow)Level 1 Deflect ArrowsLevel 3 Improved Unarmed StrikeMonk 1 Improved GrappleMonk 1 Skills x Total Skill Points: 48 [7x6 undead, 6 monk] Languages: Common, Elven and Infernal [1 Racial, 2 Int] Armor Check Penalty: 0 Vampire Spawn class skills are Bluff, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Hide, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Profession, Search, Sense Motive and Spot. Balance: +4 [4 Dex] Bluff: +14 [5 Cha, 5 Ranks (5 vmp), +4 racial] Climb: +8 [8 Str] Diplomacy: +10 [5 Cha, 5 Ranks (5 vmp)] Handle Animal: +10 [5 Cha, 3 Ranks (6 vmp), 2 equipment] Hide: +14 [4 Dex, 6 Ranks (6 vmp), +4 racial] Jump: +8 [8 Str] Listen: +15 [4 Wis, 5 Ranks (5 vmp), +2 Feat, +4 racial] Move Silently: +13 [4 Dex, 5 Ranks (5 vmp), +4 racial] Ride: +6 [4 Dex, 2 Ranks (4 vmp)] Search: +6 [2 Int, +4 racial] Sense Motive: +13 [4 Wis, 5 Ranks (5 vmp), +4 racial] Spot: +11 [4 Wis, 1 Ranks (1 vmp), +2 Feat, +4 racial] Swim: +8 [8 Str] A vampire spawn loses 1/3 of his hit points when exposed to running water Tumble +10 [4 Dex, 6 Ranks (6 mnk)] Conditional Modifiers Expansion: +2 STR, -2 DEX, size large Prefight Actions Bring Misery CR4 Equipment Worn and Carried Cleric Outfit [0 lbs] [0 gp] 2/3 Skin of the Duergar (expansion 3/day for 10 minutes) [1 lbs][6480 gp] +1 Mighty (+8) Composite Longbow [3 lbs][2200 gp] Masterwork Kama [2 lbs][302 gp] Masterwork Silver Siangham [1 lbs][323 gp] 60 Cold Iron Arrows [0.15 lb each = 9 lbs] [0.1 gp each = 6 gp] Gauntlets of Ogre Power [4 lbs][4000 gp] Cloak of Charisma +2 [2 lbs][4000 gp] Masterwork Whistle [1 lbs][50 gp] Silver Unholy Symbol [1 lbs][25 gp] Amulet of Natural Armor +1 [1 lbs][2000 gp] Periapt of Wisdom +2 [- lbs][4000 gp] Brooch of Shielding [- lbs][1500 gp] Expendable Items 5 Potion of Magic Fang [CL 1] [0.1 lb each = 0.3 lbs][50 gp each = 250 gp] 2 Potion of Mage Armor [CL 2] [0.1 lb each = 0.3 lbs][50 gp each = 100 gp] 2 Potion of Protection from Good [CL 1] [0.1 lb each = 0.2 lbs][50 gp each = 100 gp] 2 Tattoo of Chameleon [CL 1] [0.0 lb each = 0 lbs][100 gp each = 200 gp] 2 Potion of Protection from Evil [CL 1] [0.1 lb each = 0.2 lbs][50 gp each = 100 gp] 4 Tattoo of Force Screen [ML 1] [0.0 lb each = 0 lbs][100 gp each = 400 gp] Max total (ECL2 x 50): 4050gp Equipment at Home 11680gp Coffin Results Miniquest: Failure vs Night Hag - [0 xp] [0 gp] Miniquest: Dark Beginnings; Success [2546 xp] [4243 gp] Mission: To Catch A Low-Flying Star; Failure Miniquest: Carrion Cavalier; Success [2314 xp] [3857 gp] [Cohort] Allies Maximum CR per ally: CR 5 Maximum ECL per ally: ECL 7 Maximum CA of allies per fight: CA 7 Gender and Race: Female Gravespawn Horse (Consider a female griffon) Size and Type: Large Skeletal Apparation (Consider large magical beast) Length, Wingspan, Weight: 8', 25', 500 lbs Age: Ageless (consider young) Alignment: Neutral CR: 4 Price: 8500gp (7000gp + training 1500gp) Hit Dice: 7d10+21 (59 hp) Initiative: +2 Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), fly 80 ft. (average) Armor Class: 17 (–1 size, +2 Dex, +6 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 15 Base Attack/Grapple: +7/+15 Attack: Bite +11 melee (2d6+4) Full Attack: Bite +11 melee (2d6+4) and 2 claws +8 melee (1d4+2) Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: Pounce, rake 1d6+2 Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent Saves: Fort +8, Ref +7, Will +5 Abilities: Str 18, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 5, Wis 13, Cha 8 Skills: Jump +8, Listen +6, Spot +10 Feats: Iron Will, Multiattack, Weapon Focus (bite) Tricks: Combat Riding Package x [U]Equipment: Masterwork Chain Shirt Barding [50 lbs] [550 gp] Exotic Military Saddle [40 lbs] [60 gp] Weight Carried: 226.6 lbs, light encumbrance [0-300 (Light), 301-600 (Medium), 601-900 (Heavy)] Time Between Fights: 4 hrs Prebuffs/Ongoing Effects: none Items Used: potion of mage armor, potion of magic fang, tattoo of force screen Spells or Powerpoints Used: none x/day Abilities Used: 1 use of Skin of the Duergar Free Activity: none
hogarth 03-15-07, 03:06 PM	The moon is full this evening. Jonathon Raven Gravebound arises from his coffin-bound rest and leaves his dismal sepulchre, hungering for the blood of the living. Normally he would dine on the prey of his choosing, but tonight is different. Several days ago, the mighty Archdevil Asran attempted to kill the three draconic champions of the Stygian Strikers, but he was swarmed and outnumbered by the clutch of cruel drakes. Now it is Jonathon's turn for revenge. A messenger arrived just before dawn yesterday morning with heartening news; the three dragons were currently off raiding a fortress more than a day's flight away. If the Trading Company struck now, they might be able to catch the creatures' lair undefended. According to Asran, the creatures' lair is beneath one of two shipping yards: Tarcivel's Cartage or Munoz's Freight and Hauling. The two yards are clear across town from each other. Jonathon and Misery ponder which to investigate first.
Abyssal Stalker 03-15-07, 03:26 PM	Jonathon hasn't been able to do any research on the Stygian Strikers, so he hasn't got too much knowledge to base his decisions on. He has to act quickly to make it there before the dragons return. He chooses the closer one, which seems to be Munoz's Freight and Hauling. He summons his foul steed, and rises to the night sky with ill intentions.
hogarth 03-15-07, 05:05 PM	Jonathon and Misery arrive at Munoz's and begin searching through the stacks and stacks of crates that are piled about. Suddenly, the vampire hears a commotion off to the side. He glances in that direction, and he sees a trapdoor opening from another group of crates. Out of the trapdoor, he sees a large humanoid figure outlined in the pale moonlight, the heavy tread of its footfalls mingling with the faraway sound of bells ringing. Perhaps he set off some sort of alarm... Map is the Arena map. Jonathon and Misery are in starting block 1 and the creature is in starting block 2. I'll put up a map later tonight.
Abyssal Stalker 03-16-07, 02:54 AM	I'd rather start unmounted. Quaff a potion of mage armor and then tap a tattoo of chameleon. Misery should keep away from the beast, preferably taking cover and also some 60ft away from Jonathon. Go hiding and take out bow. Try to get into a position to snipe at the thing and we'll see what happens.
hogarth 03-16-07, 07:09 AM	My understanding is that you get two surprise rounds -- one for Ambush and one for ECL 9 vs. EL 10. I'll use those for your buffs. Here's the starting map: http://www.hwx.it/coco/coco.php;v=1;map=arena;a=Name,M,30,58;b= Name,L,32,58;c=Name,L,58,32 Rolls are here: http://www.hwx.it/wizards.com/dice.php?sid=1221 Init: Jonathon 15 Gumby 12 Round 1: Jonathon moves out. Gumby does ???. http://www.hwx.it/coco/coco.php;v=1;map=arena;a=Name,M,30,58,34 ,54,34,48;b=Name,L,32,58;c=Name,L,58,32; los=34,48,58,32,2 Jonathon: AC 26, HP 38/38 - mage armor (ends long), chameleon (ends 100) Gumby: HP X Round 2: Jonathon moves out. Gumby does ???. http://www.hwx.it/coco/coco.php;v=1;map=arena;a=Name,M,34,48,36 ,37;b=Name,L,32,58;c=Name,L,58,32 Jonathon: AC 26, HP 38/38 - mage armor (ends long), chameleon (ends 100) Gumby: HP X Round 3: Jonathon snipes (16 vs AC ?=miss, rehide 23 vs -6=success). Gumby does nothing. Jonathon imbibes an elixir and activates a psionic tattoo. A field of force surrounds his body and his skin and clothes shift color to blend into the environment. He steals out and hides behind a convenient pyramid of cotton bales. He fires an arrow at the hulk and it glances off the creature. It says nothing, merely looking around before returning to its vigil in front of the creatures' lair. A.S. -- I forgot to tell you how many arrows you broke on the previous miniquest. I think it was 3 or so, but let me roll for the ones you missed.
Abyssal Stalker 03-16-07, 09:26 AM	Keep shooting until I hit or it spots me. I'd like to see if shooting has an effect on it.
hogarth 03-16-07, 09:43 AM	Jonathon fires several salvos from his hiding spot. Most glance off of the creature's tough hide and one goes soaring over its head. Finally one strikes the creature squarely and sticks in its flesh. The powerful shot would have killed the stoutest blacksmith, but in this case the arrow's shaft merely protrudes from the insensible creature's body like a lone tree on the prairie. The thing doesn't even emit a cry of rage or pain. Rounds 4-8: Jonathon snipes (6!,8,8,21,22=4 misses, one hit; dmg 12-10=2; hide=5 successes). Gumby does nothing. Jonathon: AC 26, HP 38/38 - mage armor (ends long), chameleon (ends 100), 6 arrows fired (so far) Gumby: HP X-2 By the way, Jonathon lost 5 arrows on his previous miniquest.
Abyssal Stalker 03-16-07, 02:07 PM	Call Misery to me and rise to the air. Fly above the thing and keep shooting from above. No need for that range penalty, as it looks like it doesn't have any ranged capability. Feel free to use all arrows, I need to soften that thing.
hogarth 03-16-07, 02:26 PM	Jonathon calls Misery over to him. The creature hears the call as well, and slowly lumbers forward a bit. However, once Jonathon and Misery are airborne the creature returns to its spot in front of the trap door while Jonathon showers it with arrows from the air. For every two that miss, one finds its mark and after a few minutes the creature is bristling with arrows like some sort of enormous porcupine. The man-thing's head swivels to follow the flying assailant, but it does nothing to stop the fusillade. Eventually Jonathon runs out of arrows and ponders his next move. Rounds 9-60: Jonathon mounts Misery and fires arrows from the air, hitting 16 more times before running out of ammunition. Jonathon: AC 26, HP 38/38 - mage armor (ends long), chameleon (ends 100), 55 arrows fired (none left) Gumby: HP X-62
Abyssal Stalker 03-16-07, 02:41 PM	Dismount near the central pillars, and let Misery fly somewhere into the air. Jonathon should show himself to the thing while Misery moves behind it. Let the thing come close and tap a tattoo of force screen. Then Misery should fly to flank and Jonathon should tumble in and attack with slam.
hogarth 03-16-07, 03:49 PM	Jonathon concocts a cunning plan -- he dismounts and tells Misery to attack the thing from the opposite side in a pincers move. The monolith lumbers forward. Once it's within range, Misery screeches defiance and charges the monster. One of the creatures massive arms slams into the mount with a crunching of bone, and Misery's bite only causes a minor amount of damage to the behemoth as its claws scrabble uselessly at the massive monument's surface. Meanwhile, Jonathon deftly somersaults beneath its massive arms and strikes from the other side. His powerful blow misses, however, despite the thing's distraction. The creature suddenly moves in a blur of speed and its powerful arms smash the vampire mercilessly. Round 62: Misery charges (24 vs AC ?=hit) and does 11-10=1 damage. It gets his by an AoO for 22 damage. Jonathon misses (15 vs AC ?=miss). Gumby speeds up and hits at Jonathon (22,34,30=2 hits; damage 34-10=24). Jonathon: AC 30, HP 14/38 - mage armor (ends long), chameleon (ends 100), 55 arrows fired (none left), force screen (ends 71) Misery: AC 21, HP 37/59 Gumby: HP X-63, haste (ends 65)
Abyssal Stalker 03-16-07, 04:08 PM	Misery and Jonathon retreat, Jonathon using tumble to avoid the AoO. Jonathon will break LoS and attempt to hide. Then Jonathon will climb the pillar out of the golems reach. He will continue his melee strategy after that and pray that the thing doesn't roll that good anymore and Jonathon manages to hit it couple of times. I'm not sure if that cursed wound should have an effect on Jonathon, since he is undead and his healing definitely isn't what normally is considered "healing" but negative energy. I'm fine with what you rule, of course, because my opinion at this point is definitely biased :) I have to fall into metagaming if I ever hope to pull this through.
hogarth 03-16-07, 04:17 PM	As far as Cursed Wound + Fast Healing goes, I'm afraid to say I don't think Jonathon's fast healing will work. Here's my justification: The damage a clay golem deals doesn't heal naturally and resists healing spells. Except for what is noted here, fast healing is like natural healing. You can ask the Elders for a specific ruling if you like. Believe me, I thought about it carefully. Initially I ruled that this fight was an auto-win for Jonathon until I noticed that (a) he didn't have enough arrows to kill the golem from the air and (b) the golem's cursed wound might prevent him from healing. Trust me -- you DON'T want the other monster I rolled (an 18 HD white dragon with 48,000 gp in gear). I'll probably finish the fight tonight.
Abyssal Stalker 03-16-07, 04:26 PM	I'm fine with that ruling, I had to try :) No need to bring in that dragon!
hogarth 03-17-07, 10:30 AM	Jonathon and Misery decide to retreat after suffering heavy damage. Misery leaves first and the creature's massive arm smashes into it again. Jonathon's roll out of the way is quite clumsy, but the creature doesn't notice. He manages to make it to a stack of bales and climb just out of the monster's reach. He pauses to recuperate, but discovers (to his extreme anger) that his wounds are not healing. This must be some sick joke of the vampire god. After a few moments he notices the statue is not moving as fast as it used to. It paces back and forth at the foot of the stack, waiting for him. Jonathon climbs down the other side, then rolls in and smashes the facade of the statue-creature. A crack forms in the thing's clay exterior, but it retaliates with a massive smash of its own. The two doughty titans smash each other again and again, but the vampire's quickness and the favor of Kanchelsis are too much for the mindless creature. One final massive blow, and the golem is shattered into a thousand clay fragments!! Round 63: Misery retreats and suffers an AoO (31 vs 21=hit; damage 23). Jonathon tries to tumble and fails. He climbs a stack of bales. Gumby follows. Jonathon: AC 30, HP 14/38 - mage armor (ends long), chameleon (ends 100), 55 arrows fired (none left), force screen (ends 71) Misery: AC 21, HP 14/59 Gumby: HP X-63, haste (ends 65) Round 64-65: Jonathon moves out of sight Round 66: Misery stays out of reach. Jonathon tumbles in (27=success) to attack the monster (30=hit; dmg 16-10=6). He hits. Gumby attacks (27,33=1 hit; 14-5=9 dmg). Jonathon: AC 30, HP 5/38 - mage armor (ends long), chameleon (ends 100), 55 arrows fired (none left), force screen (ends 71) Misery: AC 21, HP 14/59 Gumby: HP X-69 Round 67: Misery stays out of reach. Jonathon attacks (23=hit, dmg 16-10=6) and does more damage. Gumby misses. Jonathon: AC 30, HP 5/38 - mage armor (ends long), chameleon (ends 100), 55 arrows fired (none left), force screen (ends 71) Misery: AC 21, HP 14/59 Gumby: HP X-75 Round 68: Misery stays out of reach. Jonathon attacks (27=hit, dmg 18-10=8) and does more damage. Gumby misses. Jonathon: AC 30, HP 5/38 - mage armor (ends long), chameleon (ends 100), 55 arrows fired (none left), force screen (ends 71) Misery: AC 21, HP 14/59 Gumby: HP X-83 Round 69: Misery stays out of reach. Jonathon attacks (27=hit, dmg 17-10=7) and destroys the golem. Jonathon: AC 30, HP 5/38 - mage armor (ends long), chameleon (ends 100), 55 arrows fired (none left), force screen (ends 71) Misery: AC 21, HP 14/59 Gumby: destroyed.
hogarth 03-17-07, 05:06 PM	You lucky son of a gun! Congratulations! Jonathon dusts himself off, and he and Misery move towards the trapdoor. Opening it a crack, he sees a subterranean cavern decorated with crude finery and treasures pillaged from local caravans.
Abyssal Stalker 03-18-07, 02:58 AM	Shouldn't bludgeoning bypass the DR? Or should it be both, an adamantine bludgeoning weapon? I'll try to post some RP once I get the time. Anyway, thanks for the run! Edit: Ah, nevermind. Haven't noticed before that there are different entries with "and" and "or". Now I know better.
Abyssal Stalker 03-18-07, 07:36 AM	Jonathon carefully moves to the underground cavern, watching his steps even more carefully. Suddenly he feels urged to stop. He can't immediately recognize what causes the strange compulsion, but then he realizes that he is on a dock and water is running below him. The vampire turns around and curses. First a creature that prevents him from regenarating and now flowing water. Jonathon summons Misery to guard the trapdoor and quickly moves out of the warehouse. He makes all haste to get to the cathedral of St. Oleanus and to the Necropolis underneath. Jonathon assumes the form of a thick mist to get through a small crack in the floor of the cathedral and finds himself in the great cavern of the Necropolis. He turns back in the air and drops himself right in front of an acolyte and scares the hell out of him. Jonathon grabs the acolyte from his robes and sinks his teeth to the neck of the man and feels the warmth of fresh blood refresh him, but only a little. He drops the lifeless acolyte to the ground and heads for Lillian's quarters. The vampiric priestess is practicing a ritual to bring back the dead corpse of a young woman, when Jonathon interrupts her. "What's happened to you?" Lillian asks when she notices the damage Jonathon has gone through. "I don't know. It was a golem of some sort, but there are more important things to attend to. Have someone prepare the zombies immediately." "Cristoff," Lillian calls an a young acolyte enters from the shadows. Jonathon turns his attention to Cristoff, who is obviously intimidated by the vampire and the fresh blood that stains Jonathon's chin. "Take the zombies to Munoz's Freight and Hauling in the docks. You will find a trapdoor there, behind the crates in the southern wall. Equip the first zombie with this, and Misery will know not to tear you apart." Jonathon gives the acolyte his unholy pendant. "There is a massive amount of treasure there. Have the zombies move it to Vilis. There is a shop called Exotic Bargains. Use the sewers to get there unnoticed. Tell them that Jonathon Raven sent you and they will instruct you further. You don't want anything to go missing from the treasure." The last instruction is an obvious warning and Cristoff turns even more pale, but nodds and goes to perform the task. "Now, you will look into my wounds," Jonathon says to Lillian.
hogarth 03-18-07, 08:35 AM	Lillian says several blasphemous prayers to the Vampire God and Jonathon is once again filled with unholy strength and vigor -- apparently the golem's accursed wounds don't prevent fortification with negative energy. The undead servitors work throughout the night and fill the EHTC's coffers with the re-stolen loot. Afterwards, a high-level priest is hired to curse the region with an earthquake, collapsing the hidden redoubt entirely. The whole operation has weakened the Stygian Strikers strength significantly, but they're not down for the count yet...