Permanent Enlarge Person [Archive] - Wizards Community

Permanent Enlarge Person [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
JonahBlack
06-16-04, 03:10 PM I've been meaning to bring this up for a while, and forgive me if it's been addressed, but I have question about Permanent Enlarge Person, and how it seems to be handled in the arena.

Enlarge Person states, among other things "Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature’s possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size."

Permanency isn't entirely clear on it, but it seems to me that all it does is make the spell duration 'permanent'. I see no reason why this should change the fact that items that leave the enlarged characters possession revert to their normal sizes.

This means, IMHO, that permanently enlarged would have to buy new armor and weapons to match their sizes, as, at some point, they have to put them down. For armor, they could, in theory, never take it off (as unrealistic as it sounds), but then they would have to fight fatigued (as they will eventually fail their saves for sleeping in armor). For other equipment, they would have to take it off, or put it down sometime...

Anyway, I expect that someone in the arena has given this plenty of thought, and I'd like to hear your responses.
Jindl
06-16-04, 03:16 PM I think the way it has been handled (and the way I think we should continue to handle it) is that the PC has to buy/use equipment for his normal size. The permanent enlarge person then enlarges any equipment the PC puts on, to make it fit his enlarged size.

If the permanent enlarge person is dispelled, all the equipment then shrinks down to fit the PC.

This is better because:

1. Its way simpler than having to track the size of all items.
2. Its more in keeping with what I see as the spirit of the enlarge person spell.
3. It keeps the pemanent form of enlarge person as a viable option (otherwise, nobody would get the permenent one, they would just buy normal equip and drink the potion: enlarge person - which is way cheaper than paying twice as much for all equipment).

-Jindl
JonahBlack
06-16-04, 03:22 PM Whether it's easier to administrate or not, I don't believe the rules support the way it's being used.

Plus, I find it funny that there are so many permanently enlarged gladiators wandering around Gladius. They must have special housing for them ; - )
Magagumo
06-16-04, 04:17 PM Meh, large chars are growing more common anyways look at Donkey, Zedarak, and Tellish's hopefully-soon to come bear... ;)
Tellish_of_Ket
06-16-04, 06:08 PM Originally posted by Magagumo
Meh, large chars are growing more common anyways look at Donkey, Zedarak, and Tellish's hopefully-soon to come bear... ;)

I had the were-bear posted, but it lost it's appeal. I have since abandoned the were-bear idea. Super-strength, super-con, Huge Sized humanoid would have been cool and after 3 levels, he'd have a Roc mount. LOL

But it would be just cool and nothing more. With cleric bab and a monk level, he starts at +4 bab at ECL 10. He'd be easy pickings for single level casters.

Go to the same link (just above Kelek) and check out my new work in progress. :) :) :)

-ToK
SnarkHunter
06-16-04, 11:43 PM If nothing else, magical armor resizes itself to fit the wearer.
^Rayne^
06-17-04, 01:49 AM If nothing else, magical armor resizes itself to fit the wearer.

I don't agree with this after the spell is cast. You can't just buy medium size armor for a permanently large PC and expect it to 'magically' increase in size. That breaks the core rules. If you want to buy large size items to use after becoming Large Size then you have to pay the extra cash to have them made to fit your humongous body. As for JonahBlack's comments I have to say he makes many valid points that are being conveiniently overlooked here. If a PC removes something they were wearing at the time of being enlarged it is supposed to go back to its normal size when removed. The spell is cast on the person not their equipment. So their equipment while affected by the spell while on them at the time of casting shouldn't work when they put the stuff back on again. If PC's want to be permanently enlarged then they better not be taking off their belongings between arena battles which also means they would be coming into arena battles fatigued.

Now I guess some could argue that the items worn at the time of casting change back and forth depending on if they are on the Player character or not. I think it seems unlikely based on the spells description, but I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt on this one. If this is the case then at the very least any items purchased after the transformation are not subject to the rules of the spell and need to have extra gold spent on them to have them adjusted to the new size. If they are the unfortunate victim of a strong dispell and they shrink in size some of their gear will be too big, but that is one of the inherent flaws with the otherwise powerful strategy. The same would be the case in reverse if they are suddenly enlarged and their gear won't fit. These adjustments to size should be watched carefully to make sure they meet the spirit of the core rules and don't warp them to give one gladiator a sizeable advantage without any of the disadvantages. Balance is important under the circumstances.
Pittbull
06-17-04, 02:35 AM What happens after the fight, if permanently cast enlargement is dispelled? Is it lost forever or is it charged (or repaired) for free as the other magical equipment, like sundered shields.

Am I right? - Wearing a magical armor, prevents Angosh from buying a new one.
Dawnlord
06-17-04, 06:16 AM I agree with JonahBlack.

Size of Items:
Items bought should have a size descriptor at the character sheet. Else you can't determin what's happening if permEnlarge is dispeled.
Further I would say that every item leaving the Creature don't resize if picked up later again because the Spell desc refers to the moment when the spell is cast.All equipment worn or carried (using the past)...

Fatigue
....and so I also say that the Gladiators are Fatigued.

Magical Armor:
I don't think the resizing property includes resizings over the size category borders. 2 reasons for my HO:

1.
I would love to see a Frost Giant who tries to get into a Halfling's Full-Plate

2.
You have to pay money for fitting a found non-magical Full-Plate to your body. ...although a captured suit can be resized to fit a new owner at a cost of 200 to 800 (2d4x100) gold pieces. I think the magical resizing just eliminates this cost.
Magagumo
06-17-04, 08:48 AM Magical resizing is a legitimate rule, I just generally cap it at one size category. Also, I'm afraid you are missing a big point- Permenancy does not just make the spell's effects[i/] permenant, it is effectively re-casting the spell on a continual basis, so the effects are perpetuated [i]ad infinitum. It very clealry states that the creature's worn and carried items increased in size, so every item they pick up is enlarged to resemble their increased size. By this fact, if an enlarged halfling picks up a Medium Greatsword, the sword becomes Large and the halflign still cannot wield it.

You're adding to much realsim here, guys, and I think your creativity and rules sense could be better spent. I respect your intelligence, but I think you're wasting your time with added rules for a spell that is clearly being handled correctly on the boards here.
Jindl
06-17-04, 08:50 AM Ditto with what Mag just said.
JonahBlack
06-17-04, 09:40 AM Permenancy does not just make the spell's effects permenant, it is effectively re-casting the spell on a continual basis, so the effects are perpetuated ad infinitum.

Can you site a source for this?

Permenancy says:

This spell makes certain other spells permanent.

(emphasis mine)

Permanent means something very specific in D&D (like 'Good', 'Large' or 'Long Range')

Permanent: The energy remains as long as the effect does. This means the spell is vulnerable to dispel magic.

I'm not so much concerned that this is breaking the game (though it is a pre-buff). It just seems to me that this arena is, in general, very concerned with the rules as they are written, not with the percieved spirit of the spell.

Mostly, though, it's just slow at work ;)
Dawnlord
06-17-04, 10:50 AM ...it is effectively re-casting the spell ... I don't think I'm trying to add rules for something. You can't mean this for real.

But it doesn't matter to me if picked up items become enlarged or not. As Jindl noted it's easier that way and the spell desc is unclear. So discussion is fruitless.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JonahBlack 06-16-04, 03:10 PM	I've been meaning to bring this up for a while, and forgive me if it's been addressed, but I have question about Permanent Enlarge Person, and how it seems to be handled in the arena. Enlarge Person states, among other things "Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature’s possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size." Permanency isn't entirely clear on it, but it seems to me that all it does is make the spell duration 'permanent'. I see no reason why this should change the fact that items that leave the enlarged characters possession revert to their normal sizes. This means, IMHO, that permanently enlarged would have to buy new armor and weapons to match their sizes, as, at some point, they have to put them down. For armor, they could, in theory, never take it off (as unrealistic as it sounds), but then they would have to fight fatigued (as they will eventually fail their saves for sleeping in armor). For other equipment, they would have to take it off, or put it down sometime... Anyway, I expect that someone in the arena has given this plenty of thought, and I'd like to hear your responses.
Jindl 06-16-04, 03:16 PM	I think the way it has been handled (and the way I think we should continue to handle it) is that the PC has to buy/use equipment for his normal size. The permanent enlarge person then enlarges any equipment the PC puts on, to make it fit his enlarged size. If the permanent enlarge person is dispelled, all the equipment then shrinks down to fit the PC. This is better because: 1. Its way simpler than having to track the size of all items. 2. Its more in keeping with what I see as the spirit of the enlarge person spell. 3. It keeps the pemanent form of enlarge person as a viable option (otherwise, nobody would get the permenent one, they would just buy normal equip and drink the potion: enlarge person - which is way cheaper than paying twice as much for all equipment). -Jindl
JonahBlack 06-16-04, 03:22 PM	Whether it's easier to administrate or not, I don't believe the rules support the way it's being used. Plus, I find it funny that there are so many permanently enlarged gladiators wandering around Gladius. They must have special housing for them ; - )
Magagumo 06-16-04, 04:17 PM	Meh, large chars are growing more common anyways look at Donkey, Zedarak, and Tellish's hopefully-soon to come bear... ;)
Tellish_of_Ket 06-16-04, 06:08 PM	Originally posted by Magagumo Meh, large chars are growing more common anyways look at Donkey, Zedarak, and Tellish's hopefully-soon to come bear... ;) I had the were-bear posted, but it lost it's appeal. I have since abandoned the were-bear idea. Super-strength, super-con, Huge Sized humanoid would have been cool and after 3 levels, he'd have a Roc mount. LOL But it would be just cool and nothing more. With cleric bab and a monk level, he starts at +4 bab at ECL 10. He'd be easy pickings for single level casters. Go to the same link (just above Kelek) and check out my new work in progress. :) :) :) -ToK
SnarkHunter 06-16-04, 11:43 PM	If nothing else, magical armor resizes itself to fit the wearer.
^Rayne^ 06-17-04, 01:49 AM	If nothing else, magical armor resizes itself to fit the wearer. I don't agree with this after the spell is cast. You can't just buy medium size armor for a permanently large PC and expect it to 'magically' increase in size. That breaks the core rules. If you want to buy large size items to use after becoming Large Size then you have to pay the extra cash to have them made to fit your humongous body. As for JonahBlack's comments I have to say he makes many valid points that are being conveiniently overlooked here. If a PC removes something they were wearing at the time of being enlarged it is supposed to go back to its normal size when removed. The spell is cast on the person not their equipment. So their equipment while affected by the spell while on them at the time of casting shouldn't work when they put the stuff back on again. If PC's want to be permanently enlarged then they better not be taking off their belongings between arena battles which also means they would be coming into arena battles fatigued. Now I guess some could argue that the items worn at the time of casting change back and forth depending on if they are on the Player character or not. I think it seems unlikely based on the spells description, but I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt on this one. If this is the case then at the very least any items purchased after the transformation are not subject to the rules of the spell and need to have extra gold spent on them to have them adjusted to the new size. If they are the unfortunate victim of a strong dispell and they shrink in size some of their gear will be too big, but that is one of the inherent flaws with the otherwise powerful strategy. The same would be the case in reverse if they are suddenly enlarged and their gear won't fit. These adjustments to size should be watched carefully to make sure they meet the spirit of the core rules and don't warp them to give one gladiator a sizeable advantage without any of the disadvantages. Balance is important under the circumstances.
Pittbull 06-17-04, 02:35 AM	What happens after the fight, if permanently cast enlargement is dispelled? Is it lost forever or is it charged (or repaired) for free as the other magical equipment, like sundered shields. Am I right? - Wearing a magical armor, prevents Angosh from buying a new one.
Dawnlord 06-17-04, 06:16 AM	I agree with JonahBlack. Size of Items: Items bought should have a size descriptor at the character sheet. Else you can't determin what's happening if permEnlarge is dispeled. Further I would say that every item leaving the Creature don't resize if picked up later again because the Spell desc refers to the moment when the spell is cast.All equipment worn or carried (using the past)... Fatigue ....and so I also say that the Gladiators are Fatigued. Magical Armor: I don't think the resizing property includes resizings over the size category borders. 2 reasons for my HO: 1. I would love to see a Frost Giant who tries to get into a Halfling's Full-Plate 2. You have to pay money for fitting a found non-magical Full-Plate to your body. ...although a captured suit can be resized to fit a new owner at a cost of 200 to 800 (2d4x100) gold pieces. I think the magical resizing just eliminates this cost.
Magagumo 06-17-04, 08:48 AM	Magical resizing is a legitimate rule, I just generally cap it at one size category. Also, I'm afraid you are missing a big point- Permenancy does not just make the spell's effects[i/] permenant, it is effectively re-casting the spell on a continual basis, so the effects are perpetuated [i]ad infinitum. It very clealry states that the creature's worn and carried items increased in size, so every item they pick up is enlarged to resemble their increased size. By this fact, if an enlarged halfling picks up a Medium Greatsword, the sword becomes Large and the halflign still cannot wield it. You're adding to much realsim here, guys, and I think your creativity and rules sense could be better spent. I respect your intelligence, but I think you're wasting your time with added rules for a spell that is clearly being handled correctly on the boards here.
Jindl 06-17-04, 08:50 AM	Ditto with what Mag just said.
JonahBlack 06-17-04, 09:40 AM	Permenancy does not just make the spell's effects permenant, it is effectively re-casting the spell on a continual basis, so the effects are perpetuated ad infinitum. Can you site a source for this? Permenancy says: This spell makes certain other spells permanent. (emphasis mine) Permanent means something very specific in D&D (like 'Good', 'Large' or 'Long Range') Permanent: The energy remains as long as the effect does. This means the spell is vulnerable to dispel magic. I'm not so much concerned that this is breaking the game (though it is a pre-buff). It just seems to me that this arena is, in general, very concerned with the rules as they are written, not with the percieved spirit of the spell. Mostly, though, it's just slow at work ;)
Dawnlord 06-17-04, 10:50 AM	...it is effectively re-casting the spell ... I don't think I'm trying to add rules for something. You can't mean this for real. But it doesn't matter to me if picked up items become enlarged or not. As Jindl noted it's easier that way and the spell desc is unclear. So discussion is fruitless.