Power Balance: Might vs Magic [Archive] - Wizards Community

Power Balance: Might vs Magic [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
LLMadCow
07-12-04, 09:37 AM I posted this initial idea in Caterane's thread and have expanded on it some and I think it is something to be considered.

The Spellcasters DO have a huge advantage that should be remedied: Paying out GP instead of XP.

Quote from SRD 3.5
To create magic items, spellcasters use special feats. They invest time, money, and their own personal energy (in the form of experience points) in an item’s creation.

See, normally the Wizard would be behind the curve in Levels because they have paid XP to craft their items. In this arena, they pay GP for the XP. So, what are they saying? Hey WIZARD A, I'll pay you for your XP in this project, and I will do the rest of the work? Not even! In some instances that extra Gold can be a hefty amount, but is it really even fair to the Fighters?

It isn't even close to fair. In a real life campaign, casters would not be so willing to throw away their familiars, nor would the be as willing to craft everything under the sun (Scrolls, Wondrous Items, etc) Normally, Spellcasters pay XP for their projects and occasionally drop their Class Levels, but in the arena, they only pay some gold. I say this rule should be done away with and they should take a LA+1. I can honestly say that Clio wouldn't have crafted ANYTHING if this rule was in place and I would have focused on other aspects of her character. Give Spellcasters a LA+1 for crafting purposes and figure out just how much they have left. Confusing, but VERY fair. A simple level by level chart would show how much experience they have to have in order to be level X, or how much XP is taken up by the LA+1, and as long as they have 'XP in the Bank' then they do not have to take another LA.

Stormrider Valentine just lost a fight due to a LVL 2 wizard throwing his familiar away in combat (The player had a carefree attitude towards this too!)! In a RL Campaign, the Wizard would have lost XP, dropped a level and the final blow of his Shocking Grasp WOULD NOT have killed my character! So, I ask - Is this fair? No, not really. What should be left over from the fight? Maybe I would have won. Maybe he would have managed to pull off a win, but at the cost of gaining a LA+1 and some gold, but nothing else. Wow. Would that have been worth it? I think not.

Summary:
Spellcasters should be forced to pay for their XP in the form of a LA+1 (Or greater if the XP penalties call for it).

People can argue against this all they want to, but paying GP for the XP was only to ease bookkeeping and the LA+1 system is not that hard to manage. This isn't about trying to screw the Spellcasters, but more about returning to some sort of balance that is VERY needed. There is NO way that anything fair could be given to fighters to balance this out and this is a big freebie.

LA+1 is the only fair solution.
Tellish_of_Ket
07-12-04, 10:10 AM Just a quick reminder that you cannot craft items if crafting it would cost you a level.

@LL: the familiar/kamikazee was the end result of your loss, but the roll of "3" on your enlarged greatclub, invisible charge had a greater impact. You'd hit on a 6 or 7 i think and as a result Haze had two shots to down you.

The xp-gp, i believe, has always been a bit of an issue. And i gather from what your saying, you think LA+1 should apply only to those that craft correct? Not all wizards in general correct?

-ToK
Ashenai
07-12-04, 10:13 AM Stormrider Valentine just lost a fight due to a LVL 2 wizard throwing his familiar away in combat (The player had a carefree attitude towards this too!)

Okay, hang on. I did not have a carefree attitude towards this: I simply recognized that I had a very low chance of winning this battle, and desperate tactics were necessary for a chance at victory. If Stormrider hadn't had that Potion of Invisibility, or if I had a way to detect invisible, you can be sure that Sethas would have taken off towards the farthest corner of the Arena right at the beginning of the fight, and cowered there.

For cryin' out loud, I lost 1000 or 2000 GP (depending on my saving throw)! That's a whole lot of money for a level 2-3 character. I considered the risk and played the odds.

In a RL Campaign, the Wizard would have lost XP, dropped a level and the final blow of his Shocking Grasp WOULD NOT have killed my character!

This would only be true if the Wizard had just enough XP for level 2 (no more than 3400 XP). In a campaign, a level 2 Wizard would have any number of XP from 3000 to 5999. (About 4500 on average)

Overall, however, I have no problem with your suggestion (keeping XP and gold separate). Seems reasonable enough. However, if this rule had been in effect during our battle, I certainly wouldn't have risked Sethas. I would have tried casting defensively instead.
LLMadCow
07-12-04, 10:52 AM Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket
Just a quick reminder that you cannot craft items if crafting it would cost you a level.

But losing a familiar would cost a level and thus garner the automatic LA+1. And I am recommending that when characters go up a level, they can choose to forgoe the level, take the LA+1 and then craft with the available experience.

Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket
@LL: the familiar/kamikazee was the end result of your loss, but the roll of "3" on your enlarged greatclub, invisible charge had a greater impact. You'd hit on a 6 or 7 i think and as a result Haze had two shots to down you.

I agree, that had I managed roll average I would have won. I had calculated everything to the bare minimum and such.

Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket
The xp-gp, i believe, has always been a bit of an issue. And i gather from what your saying, you think LA+1 should apply only to those that craft correct? Not all wizards in general correct?

Only to crafters and those who lose familiars.

I am more than happy to address future concerns.
LLMadCow
07-12-04, 11:01 AM Originally posted by Ashenai
This would only be true if the Wizard had just enough XP for level 2 (no more than 3400 XP). In a campaign, a level 2 Wizard would have any number of XP from 3000 to 5999. (About 4500 on average)

Nope. In a RL campaign, the 2nd level Wizard would have between 1000 and 2999 XP, I agree that failing the DC 15 Fort save (Very Likely) results in him losing between 200 and 400 XP, which could make a difference. Either way, you would be behind a fighter who has earned the same XP all along the way, and for arena purposes that means a level behind.

Originally posted by Ashenai
However, if this rule had been in effect during our battle, I certainly wouldn't have risked Sethas. I would have tried casting defensively instead.

That is my point exactly. It puts a different spin on things and makes the combat more like it is supposed to be!

What mage wants to go into battle and risk gaining a LA+1, just to get some gold but no new abilities?
Ashenai
07-12-04, 11:37 AM What mage wants to go into battle and risk gaining a LA+1, just to get some gold but no new abilities?

Hm. If you want to consider XP and gold separately, though, then I have to put in a word in favour of the mages. -400 XP (which is what Ildechai would have lost) should not be equivalent to LA+1, especially at higher levels. I mean, c'mon! For a level 13 character, 400 XP is less than 1/30th of a level.

For a fair system (and one that would be most like what one would have in a real D&D campaign), maybe we could have something like this:

An ECL 2 character starts with 2000 XP (midpoint between level 2 and 3). Victories give you XP according to the following table:

Level 2: 2500
Level 3: 3500
Level 4: 4500
Level 5: 5500
Level 6: 6500
Level 7: 7500
Level 8: 8500
Level 9: 9500
Level 10: 10500
Level 11: 11500
Level 12: 12500
Level 13: 13500
Level 14: 14500
Level 15: 15500
Level 16: 16500
Level 17: 17500
Level 18: 18500
Level 19: 19500
Level 20: 20500

This would put you at exactly the midpoint for every new level, assuming you don't want to spend any XP.

If you want to spend XP, you can, as normal.

Note that this system would, IMO, be very advantageous to mages, perhaps too much so. On the other hand, it's more "realistic", and we don't have the situation where a mage who wants to scribe a scroll of Mage Armor for a whopping 1 XP point would have to accept an LA +1 for the rest of his career (which is, well, absurd).
Jindl
07-12-04, 12:39 PM I have a few comments to add:

1. There is no XP in the CoCo. As a result we are using the Core guideline that 5 GP = 1 XP for all matters where XP is used. This is the way is has always been, and it is the way we should keep it.

2. When crafting an item in a campaign, the creator pays 50% the market value in GP and 4% the market value in XP. Since 5 GP = 1 XP, that means that the equivalent value is 50% GP for raw materials + 20% market value for experience = 70% the market value, in GP.

As you can see, crafters pay exactly the same amount to create items here as they would in a campaign.

I would even go so far as to say they pay less here, because money spent is never caught up or equalized for level. If you spend money crafting something, that money is spent. In a campaign, if a wizard crafts a scroll: resist energy costing 75 gp and 6 xp, the xp will be recouped due to the nature of the xp awards system (since xp is awarded based on individual character level, when the wizard crafts enough items to fall behind the other pc's, he will get more xp for the encounter, allowing him to catch up). In a campaign, part of the cost of creating items/losing familiars is eventually equalized as the experience awards are greater for the lower level character. In the CoCo, these costs remain forever.

The costs to craft items are perfectly balanced. In addition to the feat and spell acquisition costs, the XP -> GP ratio is strictly by the Core rules.

As for the cost of losing xp sensitive allies (familiars, shadowdancer shadows, etc), you must admit that a 1000 gp penalty is significant to a Lvl 3 character and discourages the use of these allies as combatants.

It seems your proposal is that "if your familiar dies and you win, you don't advance a level." I can tell you know, as a GM and an Elder, that I will oppose any sort of change along those lines.

-Jindl
Tellish_of_Ket
07-12-04, 12:48 PM I have been doing some thinking.

I really can't support the LA+1 for crafters. Here's my reason. Crafters already get hit with extra gold plus selecting a feat. If we were to follow Ashenai's suggestion, we would be increasing their power, no nerfing it.

Ashenai already basically lost a level because of the death of the familiar, it would be extremely unfair to punish him with yet another punitive level loss above and beyond.

If he'd have lost that fight, he'd be an ecl 1 wizard. How fair is that? Completely unfair. We are already currently voting on a system to handcuff (or leave as be) ALL spellcasters (other than spontaneous ones), not just crafters.

So at this time, i cannot consider supporting LA+1 for crafters. The balance just doesn't even out.

-ToK

**EDIT** well, i guess Jindl and I agree on this point then. Must have been typing it at the same time. I also can't see any of the other Elders supporting it.

please also keep in mind LL that you didn't lose because he threw away the familiar. He could have just as easily casted on the defensive, or stepped back to use ray of enfeeblement. You lost because of one bad roll on your part.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LLMadCow 07-12-04, 09:37 AM	I posted this initial idea in Caterane's thread and have expanded on it some and I think it is something to be considered. The Spellcasters DO have a huge advantage that should be remedied: Paying out GP instead of XP. Quote from SRD 3.5 To create magic items, spellcasters use special feats. They invest time, money, and their own personal energy (in the form of experience points) in an item’s creation. See, normally the Wizard would be behind the curve in Levels because they have paid XP to craft their items. In this arena, they pay GP for the XP. So, what are they saying? Hey WIZARD A, I'll pay you for your XP in this project, and I will do the rest of the work? Not even! In some instances that extra Gold can be a hefty amount, but is it really even fair to the Fighters? It isn't even close to fair. In a real life campaign, casters would not be so willing to throw away their familiars, nor would the be as willing to craft everything under the sun (Scrolls, Wondrous Items, etc) Normally, Spellcasters pay XP for their projects and occasionally drop their Class Levels, but in the arena, they only pay some gold. I say this rule should be done away with and they should take a LA+1. I can honestly say that Clio wouldn't have crafted ANYTHING if this rule was in place and I would have focused on other aspects of her character. Give Spellcasters a LA+1 for crafting purposes and figure out just how much they have left. Confusing, but VERY fair. A simple level by level chart would show how much experience they have to have in order to be level X, or how much XP is taken up by the LA+1, and as long as they have 'XP in the Bank' then they do not have to take another LA. Stormrider Valentine just lost a fight due to a LVL 2 wizard throwing his familiar away in combat (The player had a carefree attitude towards this too!)! In a RL Campaign, the Wizard would have lost XP, dropped a level and the final blow of his Shocking Grasp WOULD NOT have killed my character! So, I ask - Is this fair? No, not really. What should be left over from the fight? Maybe I would have won. Maybe he would have managed to pull off a win, but at the cost of gaining a LA+1 and some gold, but nothing else. Wow. Would that have been worth it? I think not. Summary: Spellcasters should be forced to pay for their XP in the form of a LA+1 (Or greater if the XP penalties call for it). People can argue against this all they want to, but paying GP for the XP was only to ease bookkeeping and the LA+1 system is not that hard to manage. This isn't about trying to screw the Spellcasters, but more about returning to some sort of balance that is VERY needed. There is NO way that anything fair could be given to fighters to balance this out and this is a big freebie. LA+1 is the only fair solution.
Tellish_of_Ket 07-12-04, 10:10 AM	Just a quick reminder that you cannot craft items if crafting it would cost you a level. @LL: the familiar/kamikazee was the end result of your loss, but the roll of "3" on your enlarged greatclub, invisible charge had a greater impact. You'd hit on a 6 or 7 i think and as a result Haze had two shots to down you. The xp-gp, i believe, has always been a bit of an issue. And i gather from what your saying, you think LA+1 should apply only to those that craft correct? Not all wizards in general correct? -ToK
Ashenai 07-12-04, 10:13 AM	Stormrider Valentine just lost a fight due to a LVL 2 wizard throwing his familiar away in combat (The player had a carefree attitude towards this too!) Okay, hang on. I did not have a carefree attitude towards this: I simply recognized that I had a very low chance of winning this battle, and desperate tactics were necessary for a chance at victory. If Stormrider hadn't had that Potion of Invisibility, or if I had a way to detect invisible, you can be sure that Sethas would have taken off towards the farthest corner of the Arena right at the beginning of the fight, and cowered there. For cryin' out loud, I lost 1000 or 2000 GP (depending on my saving throw)! That's a whole lot of money for a level 2-3 character. I considered the risk and played the odds. In a RL Campaign, the Wizard would have lost XP, dropped a level and the final blow of his Shocking Grasp WOULD NOT have killed my character! This would only be true if the Wizard had just enough XP for level 2 (no more than 3400 XP). In a campaign, a level 2 Wizard would have any number of XP from 3000 to 5999. (About 4500 on average) Overall, however, I have no problem with your suggestion (keeping XP and gold separate). Seems reasonable enough. However, if this rule had been in effect during our battle, I certainly wouldn't have risked Sethas. I would have tried casting defensively instead.
LLMadCow 07-12-04, 10:52 AM	Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket Just a quick reminder that you cannot craft items if crafting it would cost you a level. But losing a familiar would cost a level and thus garner the automatic LA+1. And I am recommending that when characters go up a level, they can choose to forgoe the level, take the LA+1 and then craft with the available experience. Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket @LL: the familiar/kamikazee was the end result of your loss, but the roll of "3" on your enlarged greatclub, invisible charge had a greater impact. You'd hit on a 6 or 7 i think and as a result Haze had two shots to down you. I agree, that had I managed roll average I would have won. I had calculated everything to the bare minimum and such. Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket The xp-gp, i believe, has always been a bit of an issue. And i gather from what your saying, you think LA+1 should apply only to those that craft correct? Not all wizards in general correct? Only to crafters and those who lose familiars. I am more than happy to address future concerns.
LLMadCow 07-12-04, 11:01 AM	Originally posted by Ashenai This would only be true if the Wizard had just enough XP for level 2 (no more than 3400 XP). In a campaign, a level 2 Wizard would have any number of XP from 3000 to 5999. (About 4500 on average) Nope. In a RL campaign, the 2nd level Wizard would have between 1000 and 2999 XP, I agree that failing the DC 15 Fort save (Very Likely) results in him losing between 200 and 400 XP, which could make a difference. Either way, you would be behind a fighter who has earned the same XP all along the way, and for arena purposes that means a level behind. Originally posted by Ashenai However, if this rule had been in effect during our battle, I certainly wouldn't have risked Sethas. I would have tried casting defensively instead. That is my point exactly. It puts a different spin on things and makes the combat more like it is supposed to be! What mage wants to go into battle and risk gaining a LA+1, just to get some gold but no new abilities?
Ashenai 07-12-04, 11:37 AM	What mage wants to go into battle and risk gaining a LA+1, just to get some gold but no new abilities? Hm. If you want to consider XP and gold separately, though, then I have to put in a word in favour of the mages. -400 XP (which is what Ildechai would have lost) should not be equivalent to LA+1, especially at higher levels. I mean, c'mon! For a level 13 character, 400 XP is less than 1/30th of a level. For a fair system (and one that would be most like what one would have in a real D&D campaign), maybe we could have something like this: An ECL 2 character starts with 2000 XP (midpoint between level 2 and 3). Victories give you XP according to the following table: Level 2: 2500 Level 3: 3500 Level 4: 4500 Level 5: 5500 Level 6: 6500 Level 7: 7500 Level 8: 8500 Level 9: 9500 Level 10: 10500 Level 11: 11500 Level 12: 12500 Level 13: 13500 Level 14: 14500 Level 15: 15500 Level 16: 16500 Level 17: 17500 Level 18: 18500 Level 19: 19500 Level 20: 20500 This would put you at exactly the midpoint for every new level, assuming you don't want to spend any XP. If you want to spend XP, you can, as normal. Note that this system would, IMO, be very advantageous to mages, perhaps too much so. On the other hand, it's more "realistic", and we don't have the situation where a mage who wants to scribe a scroll of Mage Armor for a whopping 1 XP point would have to accept an LA +1 for the rest of his career (which is, well, absurd).
Jindl 07-12-04, 12:39 PM	I have a few comments to add: 1. There is no XP in the CoCo. As a result we are using the Core guideline that 5 GP = 1 XP for all matters where XP is used. This is the way is has always been, and it is the way we should keep it. 2. When crafting an item in a campaign, the creator pays 50% the market value in GP and 4% the market value in XP. Since 5 GP = 1 XP, that means that the equivalent value is 50% GP for raw materials + 20% market value for experience = 70% the market value, in GP. As you can see, crafters pay exactly the same amount to create items here as they would in a campaign. I would even go so far as to say they pay less here, because money spent is never caught up or equalized for level. If you spend money crafting something, that money is spent. In a campaign, if a wizard crafts a scroll: resist energy costing 75 gp and 6 xp, the xp will be recouped due to the nature of the xp awards system (since xp is awarded based on individual character level, when the wizard crafts enough items to fall behind the other pc's, he will get more xp for the encounter, allowing him to catch up). In a campaign, part of the cost of creating items/losing familiars is eventually equalized as the experience awards are greater for the lower level character. In the CoCo, these costs remain forever. The costs to craft items are perfectly balanced. In addition to the feat and spell acquisition costs, the XP -> GP ratio is strictly by the Core rules. As for the cost of losing xp sensitive allies (familiars, shadowdancer shadows, etc), you must admit that a 1000 gp penalty is significant to a Lvl 3 character and discourages the use of these allies as combatants. It seems your proposal is that "if your familiar dies and you win, you don't advance a level." I can tell you know, as a GM and an Elder, that I will oppose any sort of change along those lines. -Jindl
Tellish_of_Ket 07-12-04, 12:48 PM	I have been doing some thinking. I really can't support the LA+1 for crafters. Here's my reason. Crafters already get hit with extra gold plus selecting a feat. If we were to follow Ashenai's suggestion, we would be increasing their power, no nerfing it. Ashenai already basically lost a level because of the death of the familiar, it would be extremely unfair to punish him with yet another punitive level loss above and beyond. If he'd have lost that fight, he'd be an ecl 1 wizard. How fair is that? Completely unfair. We are already currently voting on a system to handcuff (or leave as be) ALL spellcasters (other than spontaneous ones), not just crafters. So at this time, i cannot consider supporting LA+1 for crafters. The balance just doesn't even out. -ToK EDIT well, i guess Jindl and I agree on this point then. Must have been typing it at the same time. I also can't see any of the other Elders supporting it. please also keep in mind LL that you didn't lose because he threw away the familiar. He could have just as easily casted on the defensive, or stepped back to use ray of enfeeblement. You lost because of one bad roll on your part.