Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Piuro 11-16-04, 12:31 AM	This proposal was something discussed between Caterane and I. I submitted the following: Once a week, I would be willing to write up the stats for a new weapon, explain how it arived to the arena, possible uses. Basically, an advertisement. This would allow the inclusion of more weapons (and other equipment) into the CoCo, without requireing the purchase of extra source books. This would therefor expand upon strategy, and greater the value of careful thaught within the CoCo. The weapons would be decided upon by some undetermined process (probably me makeing a desision and talking to random people), and would be added to a special location (Thread) each monday (Allowing for their use in fights quickly). All 3.5 sources, nomatter how recent, would be open to this new shop. This weekly introduction process cuts back on a massive influx of new equipment, which would just frustrate a DM. Suggestions would be listened to for weapons. Well, youve heard what I think, what do you all think?
Ashenai 11-16-04, 12:39 AM	Sounds really interesting. I have a couple of concerns, though. Foremost concern: legal issues. 3.5 sources other than the SRD are copyrighted; the Wiz_O's will come down on us like a ton of bricks if you post copyrighted 3.5 content here. The only exception I can think of is the stuff Wizards made public on the D&D section of their site (which is also copyrighted, but since it's public anyway, they probably won't mind), but I don't think that includes any weapons. My other concerns will depend on your answer to this one, so I'll wait. :) However, as long as we're considering adding non-Core stuff to the arena, how about (gradually or all at once) adding the free content Wizards has up on their site? No extra sourcebooks needed there, either, and a whole slew of cool new races, classes, and stuff. We can even include stuff like the preview class from teh Complete Arcane, and so forth.
Piuro 11-16-04, 01:19 AM	Quite simple. We... um... *runs away* I dont know, really. Any suggestions? This would be a rather obnoxious thing for WotC to get their balls in a vice for, though. Hmmm... How are we getting around the fact the the EPH has no OGL content in it anyways?
Ashenai 11-16-04, 03:08 AM	Most of the ExPH is in the SRD. There are small bits that aren't (a couple of races for sure, don't know if there's anything else). Incidentally, it's completely okay to refer to non-SRD content; I am certainly allowed to put up the character sheet of a Thri-Kreen character, for instance (it's not an allowed race in the CoCo, but I mean I'm legally allowed to do so). What I'm not allowed to do is copy the stats block of Thri-Kreen from the ExPH and write them up here. And yes, the WizO's do tend to have a problem with sharing copyrighted content. I've seen them delete similar stuff off other boards, even pretty innocent stuff. So I don't think this idea is going to work. :(
Piuro 11-16-04, 03:48 AM	Well then, after much digging, i found a solution. I can take the stat blocks from pre existing things, give them a new name and description, and were set. People can then view the item as however they want it to look, even if it looks like a pre-existing item.
Ashenai 11-16-04, 05:17 AM	Hmm, I very much doubt it. Stat blocks (and the effects of magic items, and spell descriptions, etc) are also subject to copyright. I mean, you can't just call something a "Four-Armed Giant War Ant", write a a paragraph about how they live underground in hives, then copy the Thri-Kreen's stat block. That's still copyright violation, and the WizOs are still not going to be happy. You could probably get away with it for one or two items, but they'll eventually be deleted. I'd rather not have an important part of the CoCo be based on copyright violation, knowing that it can be taken down at any time.
Piuro 11-16-04, 05:23 AM	Then the final remaining option is to create all new weapons, and be sure to get lots of input for balanceing. This could actually be more fun, because this way we wont have people saying "Oh geeze, i hope he picks my favorite weapon next!"
Caterane 11-16-04, 11:04 AM	Once a week, I would be willing to write up the stats for a new weapon, explain how it arived to the arena, possible uses. Basically, an advertisement. This would allow the inclusion of more weapons Even though I like the idea this would be a step over our Core-only line. A small one for sure but we might be tempted to include additional stuff. I suggest to pick an existing core weapon and rename it to get the flavor. However, as long as we're considering adding non-Core stuff to the arena, how about (gradually or all at once) adding the free content Wizards has up on their site? No extra sourcebooks needed there, either, and a whole slew of cool new races, classes, and stuff. We can even include stuff like the preview class from teh Complete Arcane, and so forth. The mainreason for staying Core ain't the copyrights but the downfall of 2 predecessor arenas which failed because they had too many options, and too many loopholes to fix. Adding new stuff should be carefully considered and discussed, and only if there is a reason to add it, like everything has been taken and there are no new unique builds left. We also have a lot to fix in the current arena (eg win ini, spellcasters, etc) so we should focus on that first. There might be a point when we consider this an option but this day has yet to come.
Piuro 11-16-04, 04:40 PM	Hmmm, that makes perfect sense for me. Yes! Fix spelllcasters!
Piuro 11-17-04, 12:22 AM	Annyone know what rules surround Dragon Magazine content? Oh! And i figured out how to fix the caster problem, if anyone cares.
Ashenai 11-17-04, 12:45 AM	Annyone know what rules surround Dragon Magazine content? Yeah. Also copyrighted, all rights reserved. In other words, hands off. Oh! And i figured out how to fix the caster problem, if anyone cares. Heh... we've had about a dozen huge discussion threads on the topic already. Your input is very welcome though, naturally. What's your idea?
Piuro 11-17-04, 02:32 AM	Quite simple: New psionic power: Maki's Transparent Sheild Psychokinesis [Force] Level: Psion/wilder 1, psychic warrior 1 Display: Auditory Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: 1 min./level Power Points: 1 You create a slightly visible shild that fits your form, and will absorb the arcane spell Magic Missile, no matter what caster level. The missles just warp around your sheild, and the bright light of such causes you to take a -1 (Per misslie) on spot checks in the next round, though never dazing or blinding. Augment: You may spend one extra PP to cause the shield to absorb the missiles diferently, negateing the spot check penalty. Backstory: This power suddly appeared in the mides of some of the psions in the city of Gladius, at least thats what they claim. Rumor holds it to be more likely that the new power was brought to Gladius by an unamed Psion, and that it was developed over time to counter the common problem that persists in the arena. Though it is still unknown how it arived in the realm of common knowledge. The name is believed to have come from the term "Magic/Psionic transparency". CL1 Psionic power, or a 50gp tatoo
Ashenai 11-17-04, 06:37 AM	Meh. Cool power, but Magic Missile probably doesn't even make Top 50 on the Big List of Problems With Wizards. It's just not needed, IMO. Also, it's not Core, and as Cat said, we're trying to keep things as Core as possible here.
Piuro 11-17-04, 12:54 PM	Core, no. Solve a CoCo problem; yes.
Sindorin 11-17-04, 03:25 PM	Well, if a CL9 Magic Missile Scroll is what you're worrying about, cast force screen or shield on yourself - The mage will likely have his CL 5 or better fireball scroll burning a hole in his pocket. I know mine typically do at lower levels...
Piuro 11-17-04, 06:38 PM	Force Shield wont stop magic missiles, unless there is an erratta im unaware of. This is just a sugestion of a power that could be used as a psionic tattoo to counter that. We should just say that you cant buy scrolls of a caster level higher then you. Level 1, only CL1. Deal with it.
Ashenai 11-17-04, 09:32 PM	This will not solve a CoCo problem. It's basically just the same thing as banning Magic Missile, just like Tattoos of Synesthete are the same thing as banning Blindness. Lo and behold, nobody uses Blindness any more. The thing is: first of all, there's a reason Magic Missiles are somewhat difficult to guard against. It's not impossible; a Brooch of Shielding only costs 1500 gp, after all. Secondly, this will not solve the problem of low-level casters using high-level scrolls at all. They can still use Fireball or Lightning Bolt scrolls, for instance. Making the most obvious, attractive, and widely-used strategy ineffective is not generally a good idea. All that will happen is that everyone will migrate to the next-best strategy, and nothing will have been solved. The solution, IMO, needs to be more subtle and less specific. My suggestion was to have one-shot items costing 5x (which would solve the problem, and is Core). Which reminds me: Elders, stuff has been on the Council Voting board for far too long now. Vote as soon as possible, 'cause things are going to go into effect soon.
Piuro 11-17-04, 10:23 PM	Force Shield wont stop magic missiles, unless there is an erratta im unaware of. This is just a sugestion of a power that could be used as a psionic tattoo to counter that. We should just say that you cant buy scrolls of a caster level higher then you. Level 1, only CL1. Deal with it. A 5x cost increase is silly, what about arrows and the like? I say if you wouldnt be abe to craft it (at all, level based, not class) the you cant buy it. Lo and behold, no more overpowered mages.
Ashenai 11-17-04, 10:26 PM	A 5x cost increase is silly, what about arrows and the like? Yes, also 5x cost. I don't think it's silly. In fact, it's in the DMG. I say if you wouldnt be abe to craft it (at all, level based, not class) the you cant buy it. Lo and behold, no more overpowered mages. Again, not a Core solution. If the 5x cost bit is voted down, I suppose it might be a better rule than the one we have right now (no restrictions), but not by much.
Piuro 11-18-04, 01:11 AM	Id say it would be a major improvement. And no, its not core, but its better then haveing a major unbalance due to items, or a solution that penalizes everyone who cant come up with a decent strategy.
Sindorin 11-18-04, 07:18 AM	Well, if we disallow the purchase of something you cannot craft, theoretically a wizard could not learn spells beyond the free spells he ges when he levels. You're right, this would fix wizards, and not only that, it would cripple them. I love the wizard, he's my favorite class. After tinkering with the thought of having to pay 5x for consumables, I am rather eager to try such an endeavor in this arena. I actually have my level 5 wizard ready if that rule ever passes. There are probably ways to get around it - instead of spending lots of gold on spellbooking, spend it all on crazy wondrous non-consumable items. I've seen a discussion thread that said limit it to CL+2 scrolls available for purchase. I think this is probably the most balancing option, as it stays core by allowing the use of higher level scrolls (otherwise there wouldn't be rules for it written in Core text) and keeping people from being big-scroll-happy.
Ashenai 11-18-04, 10:38 AM	Well, if we disallow the purchase of something you cannot craft, theoretically a wizard could not learn spells beyond the free spells he ges when he levels. You're right, this would fix wizards, and not only that, it would cripple them. He probably only meant CL-wise. You shouldn't be able to buy scrolls above your CL, basically. I love the wizard, he's my favorite class. After tinkering with the thought of having to pay 5x for consumables, I am rather eager to try such an endeavor in this arena. I actually have my level 5 wizard ready if that rule ever passes. There are probably ways to get around it - instead of spending lots of gold on spellbooking, spend it all on crazy wondrous non-consumable items. Heh. The CoCo certainly seems divided on this issue. One thing, though; scrolls bought specifically for copying into your spellbook would still cost normal 1x price, as would Tomes of Ability Score. Only consumables with non-permanent effects would cost extra. I've seen a discussion thread that said limit it to CL+2 scrolls available for purchase. I think this is probably the most balancing option, as it stays core by allowing the use of higher level scrolls (otherwise there wouldn't be rules for it written in Core text) and keeping people from being big-scroll-happy. I don't think it will fix anything at all, to be honest. So level 3 Wizards would now buy CL 5 Magic Missile or Fireball scrolls. Maybe it'll now take two scrolls to kill your opponent instead of one. I don't see that as a huge improvement. But, again, if the 5x cost increase doesn't make it through the Council, then I'm all for limiting scroll CLs. It's not as elegant a solution, in my opinion, and it's not Core, but it will help a little.
T'Var 11-18-04, 11:06 AM	I don't think it will fix anything at all, to be honest. So level 3 Wizards would now buy CL 5 Magic Missile or Fireball scrolls. Maybe it'll now take two scrolls to kill your opponent instead of one. I don't see that as a huge improvement. But, again, if the 5x cost increase doesn't make it through the Council, then I'm all for limiting scroll CLs. It's not as elegant a solution, in my opinion, and it's not Core, but it will help a little. It might not fix it, but that is because casters cant really be 'fixed' they were created to be extreamly powerful at high level the one problem with x5 is that it kills your non-casters who need to have a potion of fly to help out but airnt going to buy it because it would cost in the thousands where a wiz can cast it with zero cost or the broach of sheilding which would turn into either 7500 gold for the full effect or 1500 for something that a single CL9 MM can wipe out. both options are unfair to the fighter who doesnt stand a chance because he cant shoot the mage cause he is out of range due to distance and height, cant fly to the mage, and cant hide from the MMs however the CL+2 limit would stop the turn 1 kills for the lower lvl from the unstoppable CL9 MM hitting a fighter, even a fireball you can avoid some of the dmg for all classes and all dmg againt a thief with evasion
Sindorin 11-18-04, 11:11 AM	Heh. The CoCo certainly seems divided on this issue. One thing, though; scrolls bought specifically for copying into your spellbook would still cost normal 1x price, as would Tomes of Ability Score. Only consumables with non-permanent effects would cost extra. Oh, I was not aware that it would remain at 1x for just scribing it. I just figured that a scroll is defined as a one-shot magic item that casts a spell then dissolves. I have bought scrolls, scribed them into the book, and then casted from them in a fight because I didn't have them memm'd. I guess that kind of flexibility wouldn't be possible, but that sure brightens things a bit for ol' Decimus.