Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Caterane 12-16-04, 09:30 AM	Please read this! Hi fellow gladiators! Since Saint Mo began with a little thread somewhere in the back of the CO board, the Core Coliseum has constantly grown. Many people came to visit the arena, and some have even stayed to the present day. The CoCo is a fun place to test builds and spend some free time, to write and read stories, and make friends from all over the world. However, I have always had the impression that it can be so much more. And I am not alone with that impression. The idea to do a reformation isn't a new one but it had been discussed silently in the backrooms where it grew and grew until it became the compilation posted below. I am not talking about one or two new rules but a complete reformation of the Core Coliseum. Before your hair begins to stand up on your back, read what Tellish, Ashenai, and I came up with first, then post your concers if any, or your enthusiasm. Be assured that we have spent countless hours to discuss the balance in Living Gladius. This is an important point in the history of the Core Coliseum, perhaps the most important one so far, so I want to ask all of you, newbie or Elder, to read the following suggestions for a new Core Coliseum, and participate in the discussion that will surely follow. Thanks Cat
Caterane 12-16-04, 09:32 AM	Living Gladius The point of Living Gladius (LG) is twofold. Firstly, to let people play the characters their hearts desire, in fun and exciting adventures and situations, similarly to a real D&D game, with as few barriers as possible. Secondly, to allow people to test character builds in situations (mostly combat) that mimic a real campaign, knowing that both his character an all other characters are well balanced with regard to equipment and wealth for their level, and everyone has an equal opportunity to get XP and treasure. Luckily, these two goals are not contradictory. Most of the things here are just rough outlines and can be bent or broken if needed. Real Time in Gladius Real-Time will be installed so there isn't "unlimited" time between fights anymore. The city of Gladius will have a schedule and fights are run at different times and even on different days. This will eliminate a lot of problems and it will have an impact on almost every aspect of the CoCo. More about that later. Real time means it is a 1-1 transperancy with Earth time, so 1 week here is 1 week in Gladius, and the week starts at the same day (wednesday). However, during the week the time might be different. Example: according to the schedule, the fight “Iron vs Kelek” is set for Thursday 11 AM (Gladius time) but the pitlord posts the fight on Sunday night (Earth time). The fight is still considered to be run on Thursday. Gladius will remain week-based and for every gladiator, one “relevant event” transpires every week. The most common relevant event will be a fight but other events are possible. Each relevant event (see “Character Options” below) costs a credit. Experience Points: Instead of just leveling, you earn a certain amount of XP. You earn more if you win than if you lose, and if you fought against 2 foes (leadership ally, handled animal, undead, etc) or against higher level opponoments you gain more XP, and those with allies will gain less. This ensures that you will level even if you lose all the time (similar to bumps) and we also have a lot of options, like someone requesting to fight against 2 gladiators at a time, and they need not even be of the same level (eg Harvester vs Bilo, Bruno, and Kelek; Title: Assassin's Guild attacked by Harvester). Also, there is no need for the 1 XP = 5 gp transition anymore since you will now have real XP. If you win your fight you earn XP according to the table in the DMG, p38. If you lose, you earn 1/3 of what you would have earned if you won but never more than your ECL*100. Allies and XP: If you fight with an ally, you also have to share some of your XP with him. Win or lose, one fourth of your earned XP will go to your ally! Your ally however won’t use the XP system but levels according to the gladiator’s abilities, so if your leadership score increases (for example, by fame or a base of operations), so will your cohort. Allies that come from a class feature aswell as dogs and horses do not count for XP purposes and are considered a part of the gladiator’s CR. However, they still count for all other purposes like the maximum ECL/CR that may be brought into the arena. The Player Characters Of course, the arena will stay the main attraction but there will be other ways to get your share of fame and fortune, and more importantly: gold and XP. First of all, one important thing: the city of Gladius has a special feature: every person that dies within the arena dome aswell as some parts of the city is automatically true resurrected due to a special unique link to the plane of Ysgard, called the “Nimbus”, which is the reason why Gladius became so famous and bustling. However, if someone dies beyond the city walls, he must be raised which costs money and a level loss. The money will be deducted from your account and you lose XP according to your level. On the good side, fights held in unprotected areas earn double XP and treasure because of the risk involved. History Update: Excerpt from the Book of the New Age, Chapter 2: ‘After Angosh’s Fall’. “…and after the Harvester became the undisputed champion of Gladius, he succeeded in removing huge parts of the Nimbus that was a thorn in his non-existing eyes for some long! He surely would have destroyed the link completely were it not for the combined effort of the Pitlords who managed to save a small portion of this mysterious field of life. Today, only the arena dome itself and about half the city is surrounded by the Nimbus, a fact that has changed life in Gladius drastically.” Spellcasting: Prepared spellcasters can memorize their full allotment but may only cast 1/3 of their spells. They add all of their spell levels together and divide them by three, rounded up. They can cast any number of spells as long as it does not exceed this number. 0th level spells do not count and are effectively free. Prepared casters can memorize anew each fight. The same is true for other types of spellcasters, and manifesters who can use 1/3 of their total Power Points, rounded up. Spell-like and similar x/day abilities are usable up to their full allotment each fight. History Update: Excerpt from the Book of the New Age: The High Magus’s Speech infront of the Arcane Brotherhood, 1325 GR. ”We [the Spellcasters] need to keep some of our power because without the Nimbus, Gladius has become a dangerous anarchic place for everyone. While a fighter can surely swing his sword all day, if we would spent all of our spells during our arena fights, someone might witness it and visit us at night to exploit our temporary weakness. Everyone remembers Heinrich who expended all of his spells in the arena and ended up dead the next morning. That would not have been a problem in the past, but now that the Nimbus is gone…” Character Options in Living Gladius Add-On’s: You will notice indented paragraphs marked as ‘Add-On’s’. This means, they will not be incorporated from the beginning on but are an option for later if we are routined enough to add new material. The same is true for other aspects of LG like Fame and Reputation. Arena Dome: the current 1 on 1 fight system will be expanded. You can now fight anyone you wish from any level provided he accepts the challenge. There can be team fights, or 1 vs X number of gladiators from any level, or any other combination. Of course, the regular procedure will still be to roll pairings for gladiators in the same league. Living Gladius Add-on: To increase the options even further, we could use random maps and random starting positions, plus there might be all kinds of special circumstances going on, like severe wind, fog, etc etc etc. Arena fights will be much more interesting. Quests/Missions: You can now go on a Quest which is basically a small self-picked adventure. There are different kinds of Quests (see below) but they all have some things in common. You earn twice as much XP than an arena gladiator gets on average (because you can die!), and you may keep any treasure you find on your quest (set by the Questlord). Living Gladius Add-On: You can bring along a number of other gladiators (maximum X characters, or max depending on the monster's CR) to the hunt but you might have to share with them the treasure; the XP will be shared in any case. The gladiators must not be higher in level than you. Hunting: As a subcategory of Quests, you can go hunting which is similar to monster fights with some exceptions. You have to find out where such a monster lives which will cost time and ressources depending on the exotic factor of the monster. So a brown bear might be no problem to find while rare beasts may take days to locate. The distance will also be a factor so a polar bear might be easy to find but might take quite some time to reach. Finally, your journey need not necessarily be uneventful. You might meet one or more challenges on your way to your target. Explanation: This will balance monsters. Some examples: • The Harvester wants to hunt a Cauchemar, he needs research where to find it (pay money for information or use his gather information skill), then venture there (takes Real Time), and finally defeat it, not to mention the way back. • Bro’Ken (ECL 2) buys a potion of fly and some arrows. He wants to hunt and kill a Dire Lion (CR 5) by raining arrows down from above, then use his maximized handle animal skill on it to gain an overpowered ally. However, he might meet a druid and his direbat (CR 5) on his way, and perhaps some other monsters. If you are level 2 and go on a level 5 quest, you WILL die. If you win, you can do with the monster whatever you want to do, like animating it, or charm/dominate it (remember: real time), or train it. If you killed it (accidently or not), you can raise it from the dead if you have the ability or pay a temple to do it (for the PHB price). Quests: Even if you have no need for a monster, there are plenty of reasons why to go on a quest. Of course, XP and treasure comes to mind, and if there are no gladiators at your level in the arena dome this is a good way to improve your character. Perhaps you might want to increase your reputation (bonus to leadership). Or you could seek out a Frostbrand sword or another famous or special magic item (the Questlord will set a CR according to the item price). The mightiest gladiators could even siege a castle or conquer a small duchy (base of operations), or even shake the foundations of the World. There is no limit to Quest Ideas!!! And if you do not have a special quest in mind, you can always request a “random quest” where the Questlord will roll on some of the Encounter tables in the DMG. Campaigns: This will be completely different than any of the other options. We've seen campaigns being played in the CoCo in the past (eg Temple of Elemental Evil, WLD, etc) and now they will be an active part of LG as you can now earn XP and money while adventuring. Of course, your character cannot fight in the arena during this time (Real Time in Gladius!) and many campaigns might take weeks to complete (you can always travel home to Gladius which also takes time depending on wether you walk or teleport). In order to balance things, the DM of the campaign needs to make sure the gladiators will get the appropriate amount of treasure and XP during the campaign. Any items found in a campaign may be kept. A campaign has unlimited options!! Special Events: Gladius is a living city and there are a lot of things going on. For example, an evil lich might have conquered a temple and raises an undead army. A call to all willing men is issued to oppose the threat. Only a certain number of PCs may participate, and depending on the CR of the event, even only certain levels are allowed to participate (eg levels 10-12 for the lich threat), and characters might be excluded based on class, race, or something else. The rewards may vary with the event, ranging from gold, to titles, to a warm handshake, or even a trap? Special events will be announced on a special board in the city, along with all important information. Example: The Orcs Attack! (Ashenai), CR 3; Combat quest (3-4 events). “A tribe of orcs has captured a nobleman’s daughter, and it is up to the PCs to stop them!” Prerequisites: 4 characters, ECL 2-3, non-evil alignment only. Reward: 500 gold. The Special Event need not necessarily be combat oriented. A diplomatic mission given by an important person might challenge characters in the same way as fighting the lich would, only that the event will be more focused on roleplaying and good skills. The following options are Add-On’s: Professions: This is the least rewarding option but an option nethertheless and something that makes LG really seem to be alive! You can now play someone who is a weaponsmith and earns money with his weapons (which might still be a good income. Legendary smiths (= many ranks) might earn quite a sum; perhaps even a title? Or extra money because the King employs him? At least until another character gets more ranks? --> many options) but earn less money than any of the other options because he doesn't risk his life. Also, because there is Real Time, he cannot do anything else during that time. With Real Time, allies can now craft items aswell but can't do anything else during that time. Crafting magic items costs the appropriate amount of XP. Apropos: Weaponsmith is not the only profession. You can be a sage, an appraiser, or even a tavern keeper who makes his career from a dark leaking cottage to the owner of Gladius' Festival Hall. Living Gladius Add-On: Other gladiators might order something so the money flows from one character to another (we have to make sure that it will be better for both the smith AND the customer to order weapons instead of ordering them from Gladius NPCs; perhaps taxes for NPC crafting?). Headhunting: This is based on roleplaying but still a way to earn XP. You can hunt another gladiator provided he is at least the same level as you are. If you came up on your own, there must be a good roleplaying reason to do so, else it is not acceptable. Normally there will be a "wanted" poster throughout the city with a gold price for the gladiator. You can also hire another gladiator to kill someone but then you have to pay him money or provide similar encouragement. Miscellaneous: This category is where all other actions not mentioned above fall into. For example, someone wants to steal something from someone, like a gem from an NPC noble, or perhaps even from another gladiator (though this is tricky). Every skill can be of use now. With Living Gladius being completely interactive, this might be the broadest category. A Living World A LG character is more than a compilation of stats. Depending on your personality, alignment, profession, class, race, deeds, success, or any other feature, your character will be included into the world. Even retired gladiators might now serve as important NPCs, or lowly beggars on the street. In any case, with every character the world of Gladius grows in depth and dimension, becoming more alive step by step. Stories will also add to the World of Gladius, and will have an impact on its history, present, and future. We also have to draw a map of the city that can be altered to reflect the new circumstance, even if it is just that Angosh moved from Dock Ward to Arkhein. Because of the workload, this will require the joined effort of the whole board under the tutelage of a special LG comittee. Non-Player Characters Allies: The most obvious way to use NPCs is to have them as an ally who fights at your side. However, there are restrictions on how many and which allies you can bring along. Basically, you can bring along any number of allies as long as their combined ECL (Effective character level) does not exceed your ECL-2. For allies that do not use a LA (level adjustment) the limit is your CR-4. And of course, you must be able to aquire the ally, be it through a spell, leadership, certain skills (diplomacy, handle animal), or even gold. Living NPCs: Gladius is a huge city so there is no need to write down every citizen but there should be a pool of available persons that can be increased or decreased depending on roleplaying aspects (like a gladiator has been retired and is now an NPC who crafts armor). The result is that there won't always be a NPC available to craft your belt of giant strength, or if there is only one crafter left he might take an extra fee because of the supply and demand circumstance. Since it is an interactive world, you can of course employ another gladiator to craft your belt which costs the crafter XP but he earns money. Living Gladius Add-on: If you want to buy or sell something, you can increase your chances with a diplomacy/appraise check (or even decrease them). There is also the possibility that no one wants your +1 ooze-bane shuriken. Living Gladius Add-on: The creation of custom items (belt of giant strength+1, etc) is now allowed! However, these items must be announced and checked for their validity. The GMs are free to disallow certain items that do not follow a logical market price pattern, or (would) prove to be unbalancing. Mercenaries: Gladius has a Mercenary Guild where a pool of certain non-player gladiators are available. There will be a list with available mercenaries with a link to their character sheet, aswell as their gold price and some restrictions (like a hound archon mercenary wouldn’t fight with an evil character, nor would he do actions against his alignment). Mercenaries stay for one fight only, and no mercenary can fight twice a week or for different gladiators at the same time. Of course, you can reaquire the same mercenary the following week (if available) or hire another one. Mercs cost about 8-10% of the total prize gained by leveling. Living Gladius Add-On: If a gladiator is rolled out and has to sit out, one of the mercenaries might get paired up against him. Rewards and Reputation Rewards: All gladiators begin with the same amount of fame and gold according to the entry level and no titles. No matter if you were a king in a distant land, or a street boy, at the time you walk through the city gates for the first time, no one knows you, at least not in a way that gives you special benefits. If you enter with a higher level character (by paying credits) you will of course start with more gold so your fame might already be increased aswell accordingly. Gold and XP won't be the only reward. Other rewards are listed below: Regular Titles: Titles will be a much sought after prize, and they won't be given lightly. Even if someone has a title, he can still upgrade it by finishing another more difficult quest or special event but they are all earned through active participation. These titles can vary from noble titles like Baron, Duke, etc to more mundane titles like Hero or High Priest of X. Honorary Titles: Another reward will be "Honorary Titles" (not to confuse with regular titles) who are given if someone has accomplished something exceptional, like Arena Champion or Unscathed winner, which are based on statistics rather than successful quests. Other rewards: This can be a house in a good district of Gladius, or a position in one of the many temples. Perhaps the character gets rewarded with a magic item? The limit to rewards is the imagination of the GMs and Elders. Reputation: Fame can be expressed in a numerical way. Titles, Quests, Actions, and a gladiator’s behaviour play into this. Over time, the gladiator might be in need for special expanses, like buying a proper house for his level, else the population will laugh about Sir X of Y who still shares a room with the Gronk the orc in the Gladiator's Dorm just to save money. Fame will be noted on the character sheet and will have impacts, like the bonus to leadership (or a penalty if one is appropriate). Fame could be increased in several ways, be it in the arena, or by donating money to a temple or a building homeless house. Of course, Infamy is equal to Fame so that evil characters might rise to legendary status aswell. Balancing Reputation: In order to adjust the level of fame to the way of life, we can grant a gladiator a bonus income depending on his fame level which he must use for things that improve his status, like moving to a better home, or doing something else that costs money. Instead of money, the character might be forced to fulfill some duties which hamper him in some other way (eg has to hold a party which takes (real) time, or must accept a special assignment). Balance Since LG is a complex system, there are also many opportunities for loopholes. Unlike with the old CoCo where something was allowed if it is in the rules, no matter how unbalanced it was, the GMs will have the authority to balance things out though most rules will be voted on by the Council of Elders. Example: someone kills himself repeatedly in order to have more wealth relative to his character level, or an item found in a campaign is too strong for a gladiator of that level. In such cases the GMs may come up with an ingame solution (like someone steals the item which might even lead to new plots and headhunts). If a loophole is fixable with a rule, it will be done so. Over time, the GMs should be forced to intervene less and less. CoCo – LG conversion CoCo Gladiators: When LG is initiated, only new and fresh characters may participate, and everyone has to begin at level 2. However, those who do not want to retire their CoCo gladiators right away can have them be put into a special waiting room where they will be converted to LG. Once the new LG characters catch up to their level, they can be reactivated again or be retired. Retired characters will instantly become NPCs living in Gladius. The Player of the gladiator may decide where his character fits in and the GM/Elders will choose an appropriate place for him or her. LG Positions: The CoCo was easily run by one or two GMs. LivingGladius however, will be more complex. The GMs and Elders can cover the most important parts, supervise, and assist, but they cannot cover every aspect, especially if there are Add-On’s over time. For that reason, there will be some positions offered for those who are interested. As a compensation, a weekly credit or a custom title might be given out. Test Board: We have the option to create a sub-board where we will either test Living Gladius, or put the old CoCo into as a backup. This has yet to be discussed. Thank you for your attention!
Caterane 12-16-04, 09:38 AM	Cohorts should not be able to craft things. [OK] Update: Quest types There will be 2 kinds of quests. Short and Long Quests. Short quests will last 1 week like an arena fight and will have 1 fight. They will use the 1/3 spells/pp rule like arena gladiators do. Long quests will take 3 weeks to complete, and will have 3 fights. Those 3 fights will all take place on one day. You can use all your Spells/PP and freely choose how to distribute them among those three fights. One fight will be held in a realtime week, so the complete Long Quest takes three weeks to complete, ingame and offgame. However, these fights are considered to take place on one day ingame, the rest is considered traveling time and time to gather information about the monster. Example: The Harvester wants to hunt a Red Dragon (Crimson Sunrise), a long quest which takes three weeks in Gladius and on Earth. Here's the comparison: Earth time: There will be 1 fight a week over 3 weeks. The first week, the Harvester fights a spectre, the second week he fights a pair of cultists (wizards) from the Cult of the Dragon, and the third week he fights the Red Dragon himself. Altogether 3 weeks. But why could he not rememorize between the fights? Here's the answer: Gladius time: The Harvester needs a week to gather the necessary information about the location of a Red Dragon. He needs another week to travel to the "Quest Zone", a forboding forest. Just after entering this forest, he is being attacked by a spectre who doesn't like supernatural intruders. Of course the spectre falls and the Harvester marches on. Three hours later he closes in on the Dragon cave and is ambushed by a pair of wizards with Cult signs. He quickly kills them both, then walks into the cave where he fights the Red Dragon a minute later. The dragon falls aswell, and is being animated by the Harvester, who then travels one week back to Gladius. Altogether 3 weeks but he fought 3 times in one day so he could not rememorize. You see, after the Quest is complete there will be no time discrepancy between the Harvester and those who fought in the arena. Update: Quest Knowledge Unlike in the arena, a quest lord does not post the statistics for the monsters. The gladiator must use his knowledge skills to gain information about the opponoment. Until then, the questlord just describes the monster, and gives more detailed information depending on the result of the check. Example: The Harvester enters the forboding forest and is attacked by a "ghost-like" being. He has Knowledge (religion) so the Questlord rolls a check. Fortunately, the result was high enough to give the Harvester enough information to identify the spectre as such and he may act accordingly. The pair of cultists may not be that easily identified but once they begin casting, the Harvester passes his spellcraft check and knows that they are at least arcane casters. The Red Dragon, as his quest target should be clear of course. If the Harvester would have failed his Knowledge (religion) check, the Questlord might even give him false information, like it is a Shadow. Or perhaps a Black Dragon is accidently identified as a wyvern. Update: Quest Preparation Before a quest is being started, the Questlord must send some information to the GMs/Elders. The most important thing is the treasure included and the XP the gladiator is about to get which must be balanced towards other gladiator options (arena, campaigns, etc) so no Frostbrand at level 4. There should also be an outline description of the quest (where, what happens, background). In case of Long Quests (3 fights within 16 hours) the Questlord must tell the GM/Elder when the fights will take place, and this cannot be changed during the Quest. This is to prevent Questlord arbitrariness/biasness and also gives the player the feeling that it is real. Example: Bruno Willikens (Magagumo's illusionist) wants to quest for a green dragon which he plans to animate as a zombie. This will take a Long Quest to accomplish. Questlord Snark picks the time for the 3 fights: a xenophobic druid and his companion after 3 hours, a small tribe of goblins after 8 hours, and deep in the heart of the Quest Zone is the Quest target, the green dragon, after 14 hours. Bruno has just arrived at the forboding forest which is the Quest Zone. He knows that within the next 16 hours, three fights will take place but not exactly when. He can now cast his mage armor (let's say it lasts 7 hours), or enter unbuffed but he casts the spell. Snark now knows that Bruno will have mage armor up against the druid, but it will have run out when he meets the goblins, and of course no mage armor against the dragon (unless he casts it again). In any case, the Questlord has no influence on the time of the quest encounters anymore. That way, Mag knows he won't get any help from his friend Snark who could otherwise subconsciously make the fights happen within the mage armor duration. Update: Quest Maps Quests can take place in virtually any kind of enviroment, depending on the quest. Some quests might take place in a dense forest, others in open fields, or narrow tunnels, perhaps even in a city with many-story buildings which you can enter and snipe from the windows (after using pick locks on the door). For that reason, the Questlord must create an appropriate map as part of his workload. The map can be as simple or as elaborate as he desires but a certain minimum of work should go into the creation of the map. Since there is only one fight per real time week (plus the preparation time before the quest begins), he has enough time to flesh out a map. This work won't be for naught: the map will be archived in the Maps thread. Over time, this thread will be full of maps from which other Questlords can choose their battlegrounds. To ensure continuing map influx, Questlords must at least post one map if they have to run a Long Quest. The same is mandatory if there is no map that would suit their Quest. To prevent map spaming, modifications of existing maps are possible. Update: Multiplayer Quests The above mentioned Quests are focused on one gladiator who goes on a solo-adventure. He chooses his Quest target and embarks on a mission. Multiplayer Quests are just that except that there will be more than one gladiator playing this quest, and all will work together as a party - the roleplaying reasons are completely up to the players or the Questlord. However, there are some things to consider when more than one gladiator is involved. First of all, there is a maximum number of characters that can participate in the Quest. So far, we have settled to four characters. These gladiators must be within one level of each other else the Quest becomes boring/frustrating to some members, depending on their relative ECL. And of course, where a party is involved, there must be shares. XP will be shared according to the regular XP table in the DMG. Found treasure is a more complicated matter since the higher level gladiators should also get more rewards than the lower ones; a level-proportionate share. The total treasure will be divided by the character levels into 'shares' and every gladiator gets one share per level. Example: Eiletha (lvl 3), Hagrid (lvl 3), Pard (lvl 2), and Ragnarr (lvl 2) go on a quest which they successfully finish. Throughout the Quest, they have found 4000 gold, a potion of fly (750 gp), a potion of resist fire (300 gp), and a +1 greatsword (2300 gp), for a total of 7350. Eiletha, Hagrid, Pard, and Ragnarr have 10 levels together so one share is 735 gold (7350/10). Now Eiletha and Hagrid get three shares (because they are lvl 3) which is 2205 gp, and Pard and Ragnarr get two shares equalling 1470 gp. Eiletha definately wants the +1 greatsword so she pays 95 gp and gets the sword which is her share. Hagrid is happy with the two potions (750+300=1050) and a bit of gold (1155 gp). The rest will be distributed among the Pard and Ragnarr so everyone got his reward according to his level. However, even though Eiletha was pretty happy with the greatsword, having an item price in gold is always better unless you definately find the exact item you wanted anyway. So Eiletha got the greatsword which has the correct worth according to her shares but with 2205 gp she would have had more leeway in buying equipment (including a +1 greatsword). And what if Eiletha - who is a cleric and cannot use a greatsword - doesn't want the weapon but had no chance but to take it? For that reason, item rewards are considered to have only 3/4th their market price concerning how much treasure will be in the Quest. Example: If the Quest Reward is 2000 gold. The Questlord can now give out 2000 gold pieces, or 1438 gp and a potion of fly (750* 3/4 = 562+1438 = 2000), or any other combination. Don't worry if this sounds too complicated to you. Quests must be announced and approved by the GMs and that is when the rewards will be checked and validated by us so the plain maths is left to the Questlord/GMs. Update: Questing for Allies In some cases, like with a druid's companion or a paladin's mount, the player instantly gets the ally without any special actions required. However, this is not the same for all allies. If you would like to have an animal companion for example, or a leadership ally, you must quest for it. Once you reach your destination, there are different ways to handle it. In case of (non-intelligent) animals, you have to subdue them somehow, be it with a spell, or subdual damage, or any other method that knocks it out of the combat. If you accidently killed it, you either have to raise it (which doesn't seem like a good option) or quest for it again, on another day. If you plan to animate it as an undead, it doesn't matter if you kill it (infact, you even must kill it). Leadership allies are different because of their intelligence, and the way to aquire it is up to the Questlord which can be almost any kind of situation, limited only by the creativity of the Questlord. Example: Perhaps your ally is an imprisoned princess who happens to be a fierce amazone and now swear allegiance to you? Or you have to fight your ally much like Robin Hood had to beat Little John in order to proof himself worthy of him. And remember, Robin didn't kill Little John, infact, he didn't even knock him unconscious so if you can proof your soon-to-be ally that you are superior (for example, you are at full health while he has lost more than 3/4, or he cannot hit your AC, or harm you, etc etc), he might even give up, and acknowledge you as his master. In the former example, you need not fight your new ally (the warrior-princess) but the one who imprisoned her instead (a fallen-in-love noble with his guards perhaps), but you won't get away so easily with Little John. The reason behind this is that you must proof to be able to defeat the companion (or, in case of the princess, an equal foe who entrapped her). This also forms a bond between the gladiator and the ally, making the ally seem to be more alive. And finally, it prevents frequent switching of the allies because you always have to embark on a Quest. Update: Abandoning Quests Since Quests and Campaigns take place outside the protective nimbus, they are much more dangerous, and fighting to the death is something not everyone wants to do. For that reason, you can always abandon a Quest or Campaign. You may keep all XP and treasure you found so far, but the Quest itself is considered a failure. There are two ways to abandon a quest. Between fights: This is only possible during Long Quests and Campaigns where you have more than one fight before the Quest is completed. You just have to tell the Questlord that you want to abandon the Quest and you will travel home to Gladius. During fights: You can retreat while you are fighting an opponoment. This comes in two steps: The first step is to move off the map which might be easy or difficult, depending on the enviroment you are fighting in. Until you have left the map, the fight will continue as normal. When your character has left the map, it is up to the Questlord to decide if you escape your persuer or not. Example: -s for retreats... let's say, against a host of orcs. Ex Nihilo runs away with his speed 70, while Ixenthor can just take to the sky. T'Var might be able to hide somewhere and wait until the orcs give up - of course, only if the region allows hiding. The Professor will just teleport right back to Gladius, and our heavy armored dwarven tank Dusk the Adamant won't be able to retreat at all (unless he has an item that helps him to retreat). Update: Dying outside the Nimbus Quests and Campaigns that take place in the non-protected city districts aswell as all adventures beyond the city walls are much more dangerous. If you die outside the Nimbus, you will lose all XP but no more than is required to stay at the current level, as well as wealth according to what you have earned during your current level. As a guideline, we will use the table on p.51 in the DMG: "Treasure values per encounter" to see how much a character loses. Example: Taryn Thunderstorm (Level 7) has fought 3 times since he leveled up to his current level: He won twice in the arena, and lost once. He earned (let's say) 4500 XP from these fights which brings him to 25.500 XP. He also earned ~6000 gp [2600*2 (the wins; DMG p51) +2600/3 (the loss)] since he has leveled to ECL 7. Sadly, the noble paladin dies on one of his holy quests outside Gladius while fighting a blackguard who has taken some Gladiosian prisoners. Taryn loses 4500 XP which brings him to 21000 - the minimum amount required to be level 7 (so no level loss), and the Blackguard loots 6000 gp worth in gp and items before he is being chased off by Celestial Forces reinforcements who came to aid Taryn. Taryn has to regain his XP and gold from the beginning of Level 7 but he will have no disadvantages other than having lost the work of 3 weeks, nor will he have to do the frustrating work of un-leveling his character. A new level will be like a home plate: once attained, you cannot lose it anymore though you can fall back within the level. So going on a Quest is still risky but it won't be as frustrating while still being very close to the Core Rules that are used in a RL campaign. Roleplaying Explanation: In order not to make this sound artificial and justifying the slightly different effect from what is proposed in the rule books, we came up with some reasons for the XP loss, the free ressurection, and the lost wealth. History update: Excerpt from the book "The Nimbus" [...]and while the Nimbus' most fascinating ability is to ressurect those that died within its confines, a secondary function is to allow ressurections without the need for a material component. The same is true for spells like wish and miracle if they are used to reunite body and soul. Still, even those who are true ressurected still lose some of their recently acquired memories but compared to the regular way magic works, it is still the better deal. History update: Excerpt from the speech of High Radiance Enzoul Ratrani of the Celestial Forces concerning gladiators killed outside Gladius "One of the greatest gifts in existance is that of Life itself which is especially protected by the blessing that is the Nimbus, that allows us to ressurect those who unnaturally deceased before their time has come even if they died outside Gladius on their duty. Therefore, the Celestial Forces offer to monitor good gladiators that venture beyond the city walls, and teleport them back in case they died. A special sub-organization called The Celestial Protectors will be formed which will be soley responsible for this task, and they will be sponsored by a reasonable fee, payed by the deceased one." History update: Gladiosian Herald, Nightal 27, 1338 GR; Leading article: After the very successful installation of the Celestial Protectors, a sub-organization within the Celestial Forces, many gladiators that never returned from their trips could be retrieved and ressurected thus increasing the ranks of the Just and Righteous. However, since the Celestial Forces concentrate their efforts on those of good alignment, rumors about the founding of rival organizations who are not as picky, are the primary tavern talk these days. We will have to wait and see if there is more to that gossip. Update: Quests and Rewards Quests will use the same XP calculation and gold prizes as arena fights do. One of the reasons is that the threat of permanent death has been removed, and dying is less intimidating anymore. Also, gladiators tend to be much better build and equipped than the regular MM encounter so their CR is probably 1-2 higher anyway. A much more important reason is that we risk that too many people go questing, and not be available for the arena fights. Once a gladiator is on a quest, he is occupied for 3 weeks which sums up over time. As it is now, the only restriction to quests is the number of availble Questlords but we might enact more restrictions if the number of Questers proofs to be a problem. Update: Credits in Living Gladius The regular ways to earn credits will be pitlording, questlording, auditing ten character levels (in any combination), exceptional storywriting, and administrative work. These ways won't stay the only ones though. We're going to allow everyone to have two active gladiators for free. There are a number of reasons for this, and we are well aware of the effects. One of the reasons has just been named. If your character must do something non-exiting, like crafting or training an animal, and bearing in mind that this character is still considered active, non-pitlords would have some boring weeks if we wouldn't allow them to have a second character. There is still a drawback to them not pitlording - they have only 1 PC fighting - but this isn't any different from now so this should be acceptable. Not only non-fighting characters would not be available in the arena, but also those on a campaign or a quest, or those on any of the other events. This will result in fewer characters available for the arena, and we know that this might cause a problem if the ranks stretch too thin. Having more than one PC (pitlords may have even more gladiators) is counteracting to this effect. This however means that many might be happy to have two characters, and the urge to pitlord will decrease because one of the reasons - having a second gladiator - won't be any more. The only benefit of credits is now a third or more gladiator, and playing an exotic monster, which might not be motivation enough to pitlord fights thus we might lose pitlords (something that is especially bad now that everyone can have 2 PCs; we would rather need more pitlords). To increase the attractiveness of credits again is to create more options, more things that you can do with credits. Here are two ideas which are pretty tempting: Initially, we wanted to allow custom made items as an Add-on in a later phase, but we will probably not follow through with this idea. Instead, you can now pay for the right to buy/craft custom items by paying credits. The Custom Item must follow a logical pattern, and must not break the balance of the game, but asides from that, there is no limit other than the players creativity. Custom Items will have a considerable credit price to ensure that having a custom item is something special indeed. Note that paying the credits does not free you from paying the correct gold price. An example of a custom item would be a headband of intellect and wisdom which combines the boost to two skills thus saving a slot. The second way to put your credits to good use is the creation of custom spells. As with custom items, custom spells must follow a logical pattern (as a template we would use existing spells) and they must be balanced and not game-breaking. If the latter seems to be the case after the spells has been used in a couple of fights, the player is advised to replace the spell with another one. Since custom spells are a more complicated matter than items, we would probably consult the Council of Elders before we approve individual spells. Update: Auditing Gladiators You can always audit characters to earn credits. Everyone is allowed to do this. You will get one credit for every ten character levels you have audited. This can be distributed among several low level gladiators, or one high level gladiator, but once you begin to audit a character you must audit him from beginning to end (in most cases from level 2 on) else it is pointless because the audit is incomplete. Example: Dalton wants to earn some credits by auditing characters. He picks Herrix Ignatius (ECL 9), Cloud Strife (ECL 2), and Archangel Ixenthor (ECL 9) which sums up to 20 levels, equalling 2 credits. However, Ixenthor has a +4 LA so there are effectively only 5 levels to audit. Since Dalton wants to get the second credit, he picks a lvl 4 (or higher) character to get 20 levels together. I am aware that - since the 1st level is missing - there is effectively one level less to audit but for simplicities sake we grant the Auditers that much so they have effectively a level less to audit. It is also prefered to audit higher level gladiators. There is almost no point in auditing a fresh level 2 character so you won't earn a cheap credit by 'auditing' the complete Level 2 League. Once the audit is complete, the auditor sends the results to one of the GMs/Elders so that they can check it. Results should be a list with a complete breakdown else one could just say "Gladiator Herrix is ok" without having done anything. Update: Teaching tricks to animals According to the PHB teaching a trick to an animal with the handle animal skill requires only 3 hours per day. This time is not enough to justify an active status for the character. However, the PHB is also clear that it takes one week to teach one trick. That means, you are not considered active for teaching a trick but you may only teach one trick per week. So how to track this? The character writes into the headline which trick he teaches to which animal, next to "Ready for" (if he wants to fight aswell). This will appear on the Pairings Post under "Special Actions" where this action, the training, will be noted down. The player must then link this Pairings Post to his sheet (the Pairings Post on the Fights thread of course since the pairings post on the Characters Thread changes every week). That shows our auditors that you correctly spent 1 week to teach 1 trick. It won't affect the 'active' status of your character. You may not quest for already trained animals unless there is a good reason.
kattattack22 12-16-04, 10:43 AM	Wow, that sounds really cool, especially that I've finished finals and will have 3 weeks of boredom :).
Pittbull 12-16-04, 11:31 AM	Whow! I like this! I hope, I've enough time, to stay in tune! But keeping this dream alive, means a huge workload. Are you realy sure, that this will work?
Ashenai 12-16-04, 11:51 AM	Well, we've been putting a lot of work into it already, behind the scenes. Actually putting this all into operation will take even more work, but we're both pretty enthusiastic about it. Once it's working, it shouldn't actually be much more complex that the system we have now; if you want your character to just keep fighting in the Arena, not much would change for you. New spellcasting rules, true XP-based progression... and that's about it. Much of the extra workload for the really fun stuff (quests, for instance), will be on your shoulders. You guys will have the power to affect Gladius in much more direct and fun ways, if you have the time and inclination to do so. The new system is workable (and, in our opinion, far superior to the current system) even if no one wants to do any extra work (quests and so on). But its true potential would only be reached if people contribute.
T'Var 12-16-04, 12:24 PM	The Idea sounds wonderful, but the loop holes along are a massive thing to over come. firstly Allys who are created simply for item creation will give a massive advantage seeings how they never have to fight, and will spend all there time item creating, with an endless ammout of XP since they now gain the ammout of xp to level (even though they wont have to and instead use said xp to item create) when the PC does. this also brings into consideration item creating and burning the allies xp to turn around and have the ally who has a massive diplomicy (cause he can spend points there and not in combat skills) to sell the item for 1.5 its cost and let the PC have a cash overload then for the ally who does not item create it is a penalty to the PC who has a quarter of his xp sucked away and never used because the ally auto levels with the PC how will Mercs work with leadership allys, does that mean i can have my leadership ally make all my stuff, easily pay for the merc to help me fight and then i get all the xp and all the gold minus 8-10% I'll let these questions be anwsered before bringing up some others
Sindorin 12-16-04, 12:37 PM	I'm not sure I like some of the changes so much as I am truely interested. This sounds like a lot of fun! Unless there are still backroom bugs, I've heard that New Years is a good time to administer all these changes...
SnarkHunter 12-16-04, 03:13 PM	Only thing I'm not a fan of is the spellcasting change. I'm all for limiting the amount of power overpowered classes get but a flat 1/3 cut off for all fights seems a bit unweildy. I'd prefer a system where the spellcasters themselves get to decide how much or little to ration their use and pay the price if they decide to use to much or too little. An example: Spell caster vs. Spell caster (Or psion or whatever) Compared to Spellcaster vs. Monk. Generally speaking you'll need far fewer spells or PP's to kill another spell caster, given their terrible hit points and measly saves then a monk. In campaigns its up to the characters to judge how dangerous a fight is and whether they should pull out the tactical nukes or not. Personally I think this should be decided by gladiators in the CoCo as well. Which was why i was in favor of multiple fights a day, since it was a natural means to balance higher level casters. In any case I'll give this LG a shot, if only because I enjoy playing low level gladiators more then anything else, but I just wanted to state my objections.
Einzelgaenger 12-16-04, 03:37 PM	I love it! The idea itself is great. My only concern is about how convoluted it may get. There's alot of new variables. If you and the others can pull it off, and I do believe you can, this is going to be a great addition.
Snommelp 12-16-04, 04:14 PM	I don't necessarily think spellcasters should need to have a set limit on their spells for combat, but they do need to be careful. After all, I know of at least one evil character who wouldn't mind making money by killing off defenseless spellcasters. But I do think this is a marvelous idea, please don't get me wrong. In fact, I'll probably make a second character so that I can join in at the beginning of the Living Gladius (I don't think Tara would, rp-wise, want to be dropped back to level 2)
Kaigan 12-16-04, 07:44 PM	I like the idea. Obviously a lot of thought has gone into this creation, and i say Kudos to you three. My only wish and concern is that Enilias become some special in the army of Gladius, not quite Commander, but something high. :D
Snommelp 12-16-04, 07:48 PM	I was reading through the proposal again and came to the part where it said retired gladiators would become NPCs. Would these be player controlled NPCs, or would they be taken over by the GMs?
MysticMonk2005 12-16-04, 07:49 PM	Sounds intertesting. But I don't like the idea of so many higher lvl chars leaving. I've toiled long and hard for Pard. It would be sad to see him leave now that he is successfull. All the same, I am already thinking of a new Longfellow to introduce. :P
Ashenai 12-16-04, 08:16 PM	Only thing I'm not a fan of is the spellcasting change. I'm all for limiting the amount of power overpowered classes get but a flat 1/3 cut off for all fights seems a bit unweildy. I'd prefer a system where the spellcasters themselves get to decide how much or little to ration their use and pay the price if they decide to use to much or too little. That was definitely one of the sticking points when we discussed Living Gladius with Cat. I agree that mechanically, your idea is more elegant. The reason we prefer the 1/3 system, though, is threefold: 1) It's a lot simpler to keep track of, for both the gladiator and the pitlord. 2) It won't lead to situations where the mage blows his entire spell selection on the first fight, and then would have nothing for the next two. While a situation like that would be entirely realistic, and wholly the player's fault, it's simply no fun. 3) We wanted to have "real time" and "Gladius time" move along at the same rate, whenever possible. This would make several fights a day impossible, and the "re-prepare spells every three fights" rule would be a bit of a credibility strain if the fights are weeks apart. An example: Spell caster vs. Spell caster (Or psion or whatever) Compared to Spellcaster vs. Monk. Generally speaking you'll need far fewer spells or PP's to kill another spell caster, given their terrible hit points and measly saves then a monk. In campaigns its up to the characters to judge how dangerous a fight is and whether they should pull out the tactical nukes or not. It would still work this way in quests, campaigns, etc; the 1/3 rule would only be for the Arena. Personally I think this should be decided by gladiators in the CoCo as well. Which was why i was in favor of multiple fights a day, since it was a natural means to balance higher level casters. Well, that's why we posted this for discussion... to allow everyone to have a say. :) What do other people think about this issue? I was reading through the proposal again and came to the part where it said retired gladiators would become NPCs. Would these be player controlled NPCs, or would they be taken over by the GMs? You don't have to make your high level characters into NPCs. You can choose to keep playing with them; the only restriction is that they'll be "frozen" until the Living Gladius characters catch up with them in level. Sounds intertesting. But I don't like the idea of so many higher lvl chars leaving. I've toiled long and hard for Pard. It would be sad to see him leave now that he is successfull. See above. Pard wouldn't have to leave, if you don't want him to. He'd just have to take a little well-deserved rest. :)
Snommelp 12-16-04, 08:25 PM	You don't have to make your high level characters into NPCs. You can choose to keep playing with them; the only restriction is that they'll be "frozen" until the Living Gladius characters catch up with them in level. Actually, I was thinking about Cedric, who's already retired. Would I be the one rping him as an NPC healer, or would someone else take him over? I have every intention of bringing Tara back to the arena as soon as the others catch up to her.
Ashenai 12-16-04, 09:03 PM	Actually, I was thinking about Cedric, who's already retired. Retirement is only as permanent as you want it to be. Set his subject line to "ready", send a PM to Pitlords, and he's instantly un-retired. Would I be the one rping him as an NPC healer, or would someone else take him over? If you decide to make him an NPC, he's mostly going to be GM-controlled. We also have number of ideas for letting players temporarily control NPCs, but that's only planned for Phase 2, once everything else is working nicely. (Believe it or not, the proposal Cat posted is actually Phase 1, the short and simple version.) Roleplaying, however (the stuff that happens on the RP board) is still going to be fairly free-form. If you want to tell a story that involves an NPC (whether that NPC is Cedric or someone else), you're more then welcome to! The difference is that now, people might look at the RP board, find that your story gives them a neat idea, and run a quest that's based on your story. Here's an example. You make Cedric into an NPC and decide that he moves to the slums of Gladius and uses his talents to heal and help the poor people there. Then you can, for instance, write a short story on the RP board about how Cedric has been noticing people in the slum acting strangely lately... many of them have had "blank" periods, lapses of memory where they didn't remember what happened in several hour-long chunks. All these memory lapses seemed to involve them being close to a given building... After that, maybe someone (maybe even you, if you have the time and inclination) might decide to run a quest with that as a starting point. The building could turn out to be built over an ancient evil shrine, and is being used by evil sectists who put a memory-altering spell on it, so that anyone noticing anything strange about the happenings there would forget it. Cedric might be an NPC in the quest, helping the players. Cat and I had long discussions about how we thought player-run quests should work. I don't want to clutter up this thread with the details, but the gist of it is that you send your quest outline to one of the GMs, we approve it (this step is only to ensure that the challenges and rewards are appropriately balanced in the quest), you (hopefully) get characters joining the quest, and then it's all yours. :) I have every intention of bringing Tara back to the arena as soon as the others catch up to her. Tara is only level 4. If I were you, I'd regress her to level 2, so she can take part in the stories that will build Gladius from the beginning. Your call, though. @T'Var: Your balance concerns are valid; I haven't answered them so far because I want to discuss them with Cat first. I'd be interested in whether you have any ideas for fixing the potential abuses, though.
T'Var 12-16-04, 09:42 PM	@T'Var: Your balance concerns are valid; I haven't answered them so far because I want to discuss them with Cat first. I'd be interested in whether you have any ideas for fixing the potential abuses, though. well the simplest way would be to continue cohorts as they are, they cannot make items and level when you do. and keep buying/selling rules as are. As for XP as a whole, having it makes everything sticky, harder to keep track of, and more so if you can gain xp inside and outside of the arena. I think the outside events are great, however i dont think you should be able to level thru outside adventures. items and gold is one thing and i think those would be great prizes for such events. but a level aquires much more power and prestige than slaughtering a pack of orcs or an npc druid.
Ashenai 12-16-04, 10:54 PM	I think the outside events are great, however i dont think you should be able to level thru outside adventures. items and gold is one thing and i think those would be great prizes for such events. but a level aquires much more power and prestige than slaughtering a pack of orcs or an npc druid. Hmmm, I'd strongly have to disagree on that. In fact, adventuring outside of the Nimbus is much more dangerous than fighting in the Arena, since you risk dying. Also, it seems like a strange thing to say that a level should mean more than just slaughtering NPCs, since... well, slaughtering NPCs is how you normally gain levels in "real" D&D games. :) One of the things we spent the most time discussing and balancing was the rewards system. We'd like both fighting in the Arena and going on quests to be worthwhile. I don't think it would be at all worthwhil to go on quests if the only way to advance was through gladiatoral combat. Another reason we'd like to make quests a viable method of advancement is so classes that aren't viable gladiator builds at low levels (such as druids) would still have something meaningful to do, instead of just suffering through loss after loss at level 2.
T'Var 12-16-04, 11:09 PM	One of the things we spent the most time discussing and balancing was the rewards system. We'd like both fighting in the Arena and going on quests to be worthwhile. I don't think it would be at all worthwhil to go on quests if the only way to advance was through gladiatoral combat. Another reason we'd like to make quests a viable method of advancement is so classes that aren't viable gladiator builds at low levels (such as druids) would still have something meaningful to do, instead of just suffering through loss after loss at level 2. well if you cant defeat a single opponent of equal level fighting a group of orcs is going to leave you just as dead besides with the new challenge option, three 2nd lvls can challenge a 5th lvl and earn levels that way. and I dont know but going on a quest to gain a Frostband, Oathbow, or even a Holy Avenger without paying for it would give you a major edge in your later fights
Snommelp 12-16-04, 11:11 PM	Retirement is only as permanent as you want it to be. Set his subject line to "ready", send a PM to Pitlords, and he's instantly un-retired. I might bring Cedric back, but he'll need an overhaul since he's over the 36 point limit. I think people will care about that, even though he never seems to win. Here's an example. You make Cedric into an NPC and decide that he moves to the slums of Gladius and uses his talents to heal and help the poor people there. Then you can, for instance, write a short story on the RP board about how Cedric has been noticing people in the slum acting strangely lately... many of them have had "blank" periods, lapses of memory where they didn't remember what happened in several hour-long chunks. All these memory lapses seemed to involve them being close to a given building... After that, maybe someone (maybe even you, if you have the time and inclination) might decide to run a quest with that as a starting point. The building could turn out to be built over an ancient evil shrine, and is being used by evil sectists who put a memory-altering spell on it, so that anyone noticing anything strange about the happenings there would forget it. Cedric might be an NPC in the quest, helping the players. Cat and I had long discussions about how we thought player-run quests should work. I don't want to clutter up this thread with the details, but the gist of it is that you send your quest outline to one of the GMs, we approve it (this step is only to ensure that the challenges and rewards are appropriately balanced in the quest), you (hopefully) get characters joining the quest, and then it's all yours. :) I like that example. I might just have to use it, or something similar to it. The slums bit fits nicely with Cedric's character. Tara is only level 4. If I were you, I'd regress her to level 2, so she can take part in the stories that will build Gladius from the beginning. Your call, though. Oh, I think it would probably be a good idea to regress her, I just don't think she'll like it very much. Maybe I'll do it anyways, so that I can roleplay how upset she is at her sudden lack of power.
Snommelp 12-16-04, 11:12 PM	and I dont know but going on a quest to gain a Frostband, Oathbow, or even a Holy Avenger without paying for it would give you a major edge in your later fights I imagine that those weapons would be figured in to your treasure granted when you level.
Dalton Onestone 12-16-04, 11:28 PM	Great work, guys! The 1/3 rule of course makes it even harder for low-level wizards to compete in the arena. They'd get to use ONE Level 1 spell plus their Level 0 spells. Oh boy! I get to hurl several Rays of Frost. Well, not several, because that barbarian is closing awfully quickly .... And scrolls aren't a solution, because they have lousy save DCs. Are people going to be allowed to run multiple characters? I assume you don't want the different characters working together, but still that would make it possible for somebody to build up one character through non-arena stuff while providing another one to the arena. It also might provide the critical mass to have, for example, a wizards' only beginners' league. It might be amusing to pit two Level 2 wizards against each other, as a comedy undercard but also to give them good practice. No way we get enough participants for anything like that, however, unless it's multiple characters per person, and you may not want to go there. Back to my theme of wizards -- there are a couple of feats that would help wizards a lot. One is Precocious Spellcaster; the other, less dramatic at lower levels, is Collegiate Wizard. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041114a Another interesting idea -- introduce the artificer class from Eberron. Those guys make magic items withOUT necessary sacrificing their own XP. Starting at 6th level they have an inherently unlimited ability to do this, by converting the XP from no-longer-wanted magic items to new ones. Go on a quest, get a magic item, bring it and some gold to the artificer, and you can have a new magic item without anybody spending XP. I don't know the "credit system", but I'd gladly volunteer to play an artificer of that level who doesn't do much except run a shop, MAYBE go on a few quests, and eventually work his way into the arena, furiously slinging wands. (There's a recent errata on the artificer level progression, but basically by the 7th level he can make anything except rods, staffs, and rings. And he can make things whose prerequisite is his CL + 2. Anyhow, if you want to do this, we can discuss the details offline.)
Ashenai 12-17-04, 12:07 AM	well if you cant defeat a single opponent of equal level fighting a group of orcs is going to leave you just as dead besides with the new challenge option, three 2nd lvls can challenge a 5th lvl and earn levels that way. You don't fight a group of orcs alone when you're level 2... you join a party. and I dont know but going on a quest to gain a Frostband, Oathbow, or even a Holy Avenger without paying for it would give you a major edge in your later fights As Snommelp pointed out, they'll be factored in as treasure. They should count as somewhat cheaper than if you were to simply buy them, of course (otherwise there's no point in questing for them), but more expensive than half their market price (otherwise, you could just sell them). Let's look at a specific example. Let's say you're running a CR 10 quest, balanced for 4 level 10 players, with 4 CR 10 encounters and 1 CR 12 encounter (the big bad guy) planned. According to the DMG, page 51, a fair treasure reward for this would be 4*5800 gp + 9800 gp = 33000 gp. Double that because you're outside the Nimbus: 66000 gp. Factor in a quest completion reward of 20000 gp (about 1/4 to 1/3 of the treasure earned from encounters is appropriate), for a total prize of 86000 gp, or 21500 gp per character (assuming there's four of them). So here's one possible way the questlord could assign this treasure: 40000 gp in coins and gems About 4000 gp in potions and scrolls A +2 Flaming Greatsword (market price 18350, will factor in as 14000) A Ring of the Ram (market price 8600, will factor in as 6000) A Staff of Charming (market price 16500, will factor in as 12000) A Wand of Fireball CL 8, 35 charges remaining (market price 12600, will factor in as 10000) Nturally, the party won't get all this treasure in one lump; it'll be spread out over all the encounters, and the magic items will usually have to be taken away from bad guys who are all too happy to use them on the PCs. The party can divide this treasure up among its members however it likes. Magic items aren't counted as full price because it's expected that the characters won't find them all useful, and will sell some of them for half-price; or they'll keep them but will be less powerful than if they had spent that amount of money on something else. Incidentally, in accordance with the DMG, page 38, these characters will also earn 4*3000 + 6000 = 18000 XP, doubled because of being outside the Nimbus for 36000, plus a quest completion reward of 10000 xp, that is, 46000 xp total, or 11500 xp per character. Everyone gains a level. . . . Remember, this took five encounters, which should be about five weeks, real-time. During this time, a level 10 Arena gladiator fights 5 fights. Let's say he wins 3 and loses 2. According to the DMG page 38, he then gets 3*3000 + 2*1000 = 11000 xp (gaining a level), and according to page 51, he gets 3*5800 + 2*1933 gold, or a total of 21266 gp. Note that the rewards are almost identical. Of course, the gladiator risks losing more battles and gaining less money and xp... on the other hand, the questing party risks having one or more members die, and losing a level and money for a Raise Dead. Note: if you're not a "math person", please don't be scared by the above! Normally, it will be our (the GMs') job to make sure that if you want to run a quest, your rewards are balanced. You don't have to worry about this if you don't want to, just tell us what you'd like to put in the adventure, and we'll help you tune it. This was just to show the "number-crunching people" here that we did, in fact, do a lot of thinking and balancing, and I think we ended up with a very finely-tuned system, balance-wise. I might bring Cedric back, but he'll need an overhaul since he's over the 36 point limit. I think people will care about that, even though he never seems to win. Mmm, good point. Don't forget that he didn't win because he's a team-oriented character, and not really optimized for going alone. With party options, you'll probably find him a lot more efficient (not to mention popular... everyone likes a healer in the party). But yes, he'll have to stay within the legal 36 points. Oh, I think it would probably be a good idea to regress her, I just don't think she'll like it very much. Maybe I'll do it anyways, so that I can roleplay how upset she is at her sudden lack of power. Heh, sure, if you like.
Ashenai 12-17-04, 12:41 AM	Great work, guys! The 1/3 rule of course makes it even harder for low-level wizards to compete in the arena. They'd get to use ONE Level 1 spell plus their Level 0 spells. Oh boy! I get to hurl several Rays of Frost. Well, not several, because that barbarian is closing awfully quickly .... Okay, let's say you get one level 1 spell. (Note that if you're a specialist wizard OR a grey elf with Int 20, you get 2, because 4/3 rounded up = 2. But all right, let's assume you're neither, and you only get one). Also, let's say you're fighting a barbarian who uses the extremely cerebral "charge and kill" tactic. Here's the solution: make your one spell Color Spray, and ready an action to cast it as soon as he gets close. Let's say you have Int 18 and no Spell Focus: your DC is 15. His Will save is, well, let's say he's Raging and has a Wisdom of 12, so a Will save of +3. If he doesn't make his save, he dies. And that's a 55% chance. You, the puny 2nd level mage, have a 55% chance of winning this fight, even if we assume that you only get one chance of casting a spell. And I haven't even factored in scrolls yet. Do we have a problem? I don't think we have a problem. :) And scrolls aren't a solution, because they have lousy save DCs. First of all, DC 11 is not that lousy at level 2. Secondly, it's best to use scrolls for spells that don't have DCs... Mage Armor, Shield, Magic Missile, and so on. Are people going to be allowed to run multiple characters? I assume you don't want the different characters working together, but still that would make it possible for somebody to build up one character through non-arena stuff while providing another one to the arena. Of course. However, only the first character will be free; if you want to run multiple characters simultaneously, you'll have to volunteer to be a pitlord or questlord. Just like what we have now. You can have any number of characters, naturally. You probably won't be allowed to have them interact (other than in pure roleplaying ways), or be in the same party. It also might provide the critical mass to have, for example, a wizards' only beginners' league. It might be amusing to pit two Level 2 wizards against each other, as a comedy undercard but also to give them good practice. No way we get enough participants for anything like that, however, unless it's multiple characters per person, and you may not want to go there. Again, I don't see the problem with level 2 wizards fighting other characters. See my analysis of your example, above. Back to my theme of wizards -- there are a couple of feats that would help wizards a lot. One is Precocious Spellcaster; the other, less dramatic at lower levels, is Collegiate Wizard. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041114a We're very, very reluctant to introduce non-Core mechanics. There are three reasons for this. First of all, we'd like people to be able to play without having to look up rules on all sorts of different websites. Secondly, there were two Arenas before the Core Coliseum, and they both died because they allowed all the broken non-Core stuff in. Thirdly, if we put in two non-Core feats that only benefit wizards, people will rightfully ask why we don't put in stuff to help other classes. That's a very slippery slope, and we know exactly where it ends up (see second reason). I'm not going to flat-out say no to your suggestion, but Cat and I agree that we should remain Core whenever possible, and it's going to take a lot of convincing to persuade us otherwise. I recommend PayPal. ;) :tongue: :D Another interesting idea -- introduce the artificer class from Eberron. Those guys make magic items withOUT necessary sacrificing their own XP. Starting at 6th level they have an inherently unlimited ability to do this, by converting the XP from no-longer-wanted magic items to new ones. Go on a quest, get a magic item, bring it and some gold to the artificer, and you can have a new magic item without anybody spending XP. This one, however, is a resounding NO, sorry. We're not going to make people buy rulebooks other than the PHB, DMG, and MM, ever, and we're not going to let people with more money and more rulebooks make characters that people with just those three books and the SRD can't make. We want the CoCo to be a place that's open to everyone, without people forming "elite cliques" based on what books they have. I don't know the "credit system", It's currently very simple (and will probably be slightly more complex in Living Gladius, but the gist will be the same): for every fight you pitlord and finish on time, you get +1 credit. For every character beyond the first that you have active, you pay 1 credit. So for instance, if you want to have 3 characters active this week, you'd have to pitlord at least 2 fights, or you'd have to pay 2 credits (or pitlord one fight and pay one credit, etc). One more thing you can do with credits is make characters with an ECL larger than 2, but only if their race makes it impossible for them to be ECL 2. This costs 3 credits per ECL point above 2. For example, the lowest-level drow possible is ECL 3, so making an ECL 3, level 1 Drow would cost 3 credits. You can't make a higher-level drow, though, even if you have more credits, and you can't make an ECL 3 human, either. but I'd gladly volunteer to play an artificer of that level who doesn't do much except run a shop, MAYBE go on a few quests, and eventually work his way into the arena, furiously slinging wands. (There's a recent errata on the artificer level progression, but basically by the 7th level he can make anything except rods, staffs, and rings. And he can make things whose prerequisite is his CL + 2. Anyhow, if you want to do this, we can discuss the details offline.) Again, sorry, but that's a negative. No artificers. In a way, this is a pity... I love Eberron as well. In fact, I roleplay one of my characters (Ex Nihilo) as a Warforged (he's really an Elan). It's necessary, though, if we don't want the CoCo to collapse, like the arenas before it. Trust me on this.
Snommelp 12-17-04, 12:52 AM	Okay, let's say you get one level 1 spell. (Note that if you're a specialist wizard OR a grey elf with Int 20, you get 2, because 4/3 rounded up = 2. But all right, let's assume you're neither, and you only get one). Also, let's say you're fighting a barbarian who uses the extremely cerebral "charge and kill" tactic. Here's the solution: make your one spell Color Spray, and ready an action to cast it as soon as he gets close. Let's say you have Int 18 and no Spell Focus: your DC is 15. His Will save is, well, let's say he's Raging and has a Wisdom of 12, so a Will save of +3. If he doesn't make his save, he dies. And that's a 55% chance. You, the puny 2nd level mage, have a 55% chance of winning this fight, even if we assume that you only get one chance of casting a spell. And I haven't even factored in scrolls yet. Color Spray works very well... so does Sleep. Summon Monster I might not work as well, and you almost certainly won't win with Magic Missile or Shocking Grasp. You have to remember that your character has (presumably) a very high intelligence score; he can come up with non-sequiter tactics.
Piuro 12-17-04, 09:53 PM	Hmmm... I like this alot, but i'm wondering if the almighty Elders would like the (free) services of an artist? Early next year I'll be picking up Bryce and with 3DS Max 7 now, im quite capable of rendering a high quality map of Gladius and the surrounding areas. Proposal Giving gladius an underdark, in which an area of magic (like a pool) exists. Drow mages can craft this pool of magic into many forms, resulting in custom crafted arenas. This Nimbus is weaker in this area, requireing that Lesser Restoration be cast after each fight for the loser (This creates an element of risk for playing in custom arenas, plus 200 down by each player (To cover the caster fees). This way, different arenas can exist without changing the full arena in gladius itself. This underdark is unsafe, though the authorities stay well away from it. Those who call it home are not very fond of outsiders, at least those who dont pay. This underdark would have the influence of an Elder, though a special underdark one, who acts as an envoy to Greater Gladius, and its Elders. The Underdark presents roleplaying options, as well as risk and an explination for new arenas (as well as fights in the underdark tunnels themselves, for those who can afford a true reserection. Lastly, a new series of spells could be created for thosew who fight at least half of the time in the underdark (Access is lost for those who go under 50%) for being able to manipulate the pool of magic to their will. This is just a suggestion off the top of my head. (You could treat the spells like pollymorph spells that affect a set square areas.) -Piuro
Kaigan 12-18-04, 03:12 AM	I would be interested in being a Quest Lord
Ashenai 12-18-04, 11:21 AM	Regarding Piuro's Underdark proposal: that's definitely something to consider for the future. For now, we'd like to get things functional; adding all the bells and whistles will come when we're stable. @Kaigan: Cool! Let's not get ahead of ourselves, though. We're still only in the discussion phase. It'll take a few weeks just to implement everything (I hope January 1 is a realistic launch date, but I can't make any promises; there's a lot to do). We're really happy that the response has been as positive as we'd hoped. Please keep the ideas coming, and if there's anything you don't like, post that as well so we can try to convince each other. :)
Caterane 12-18-04, 02:04 PM	The Idea sounds wonderful, but the loop holes along are a massive thing to over come. firstly Allys who are created simply for item creation will give a massive advantage seeings how they never have to fight, and will spend all there time item creating, with an endless ammout of XP since they now gain the ammout of xp to level (even though they wont have to and instead use said xp to item create) when the PC does. this also brings into consideration item creating and burning the allies xp to turn around and have the ally who has a massive diplomicy (cause he can spend points there and not in combat skills) to sell the item for 1.5 its cost and let the PC have a cash overload You are right. I think the best thing is to keep the current rule that cohorts do not craft anything. I'll add it above into a special concerns and suggestions post. What are your other concerns?
Snommelp 12-18-04, 02:43 PM	Ooh, another thought: does the 1/3 rule apply to all spellcasters, including PrCs like the assassin?
Ashenai 12-18-04, 02:50 PM	Ooh, another thought: does the 1/3 rule apply to all spellcasters, including PrCs like the assassin? Yes, all spellcasters and manifesters. Note, by the way, that this makes Sorcerers a much more attractive class than it currently is, because they have a whole lot more spell slots, and they remain very capable spellcasters even with 1/3 of those. Psionic characters will have only 1/3 PP (rounded up); this will be true of all psionic characters, including Psychic Warriors and Wilders. In fact, even if you just play an Elan with no psionic classes, for instance (2 power points/day), you will only be able to use 1 of those 2 for every fight for your Resilience or Resistance abilities. This however is only applicable for arena fights, and for 1 week quests. Quests that take 3 weeks will have complete leeway on when to use your spells. Same is true for campaigns.
Snommelp 12-18-04, 02:53 PM	Fun. I guess I'll just have to build a better mousetrap, as it were. Need to make sure my assassin can win without using spells.
Caterane 12-18-04, 02:55 PM	Update: Quest types There will be 2 kinds of quests. Short and Long Quests. Short quests will last 1 week like an arena fight and will have 1 fight. They will use the 1/3 spells/pp rule like arena gladiators do. Long quests will take 3 weeks to complete, and will have 3 fights. Those 3 fights will all take place on one day. You can use all your Spells/PP and freely choose how to distribute them among those three fights. One fight will be held in a realtime week, so the complete Long Quest takes three weeks to complete, ingame and offgame. However, these fights are considered to take place on one day ingame, the rest is considered traveling time and time to gather information about the monster. Example: The Harvester wants to hunt a Red Dragon (Crimson Sunrise), a long quest which takes three weeks in Gladius and on Earth. Here's the comparison: Earth time: There will be 1 fight a week over 3 weeks. The first week, the Harvester fights a spectre, the second week he fights a pair of cultists (wizards) from the Cult of the Dragon, and the third week he fights the Red Dragon himself. Altogether 3 weeks. But why could he not rememorize between the fights? Here's the answer: Gladius time: The Harvester needs a week to gather the necessary information about the location of a Red Dragon. He needs another week to travel to the "Quest Zone", a forboding forest. Just after entering this forest, he is being attacked by a spectre who doesn't like supernatural intruders. Of course the spectre falls and the Harvester marches on. Three hours later he closes in on the Dragon cave and is ambushed by a pair of wizards with Cult signs. He quickly kills them both, then walks into the cave where he fights the Red Dragon a minute later. The dragon falls aswell, and is being animated by the Harvester, who then travels one week back to Gladius. Altogether 3 weeks but he fought 3 times in one day so he could not rememorize. You see, after the Quest is complete there will be no time discrepancy between the Harvester and those who fought in the arena. Update: Quest Knowledge Unlike in the arena, a quest lord does not post the statistics for the monsters. The gladiator must use his knowledge skills to gain information about the opponoment. Until then, the questlord just describes the monster, and gives more detailed information depending on the result of the check. Example: The Harvester enters the forboding forest and is attacked by a "ghost-like" being. He has Knowledge (religion) so the Questlord rolls a check. Fortunately, the result was high enough to give the Harvester enough information to identify the spectre as such and he may act accordingly. The pair of cultists may not be that easily identified but once they begin casting, the Harvester passes his spellcraft check and knows that they are at least arcane casters. The Red Dragon, as his quest target should be clear of course. If the Harvester would have failed his Knowledge (religion) check, the Questlord might even give him false information, like it is a Shadow. Or perhaps a Black Dragon is accidently identified as a wyvern.
Dalton Onestone 12-20-04, 02:05 AM	Are you keeping the rule that you must pick all your equipment and over half your spells before -- well, before what? It used to be just before being paired with an opponent, but what about when you pick an opponent in a particular challenge? What about before you go on a quest? Also, can one RENT equipment? I imagine I could rent out a Mithral Shirt to low-level gladiators at 100 gp or more per week ... :D EDIT: DELETED ANOTHER PART THAT WAS BASED ON FAULTY MEMORY OF ITEM PRICES. Allow some of that and it might be interesting simply to play a merchant for a while. Indeed, if you just allow a character to show up in town with whatever they could have precrafted at the standard 1/3 or 1/2 of list, then sell it to other PCs at a profit without going through many weeks of additional crafting, it could be interesting. Of course, anybody with an INT bonus of +3 or better can make Masterwork stuff at Level 2, if they take 5 ranks of Craft skill and have the right tools. On the other hand, folks who DON'T have INT of 16 may not want to take the time off to make good stuff for themselves at higher levels if they don't arrive with it. If you have +10 and Take 10 on your checks, you make 40 gps worth of stuff per week at DC 20, which is at least 8-9 weeks for most MW weapons, and even more for bows. A mithril shirt takes 27 1/2 weeks ...
LLMadCow 12-20-04, 01:42 PM	So many ideas ... so much fun! First things first. I LOVE THE IDEA OF LIVING GLADIUS! Secondly - If this is going to work, we need to have a dynamic tracking system for Gold and Experience. A bank of sorts. This is necessary due to the fluidity of the gold and experience between characters for expenditures, crafting items, awarding rewards, etc. It can get way too complex for everyone to keep everything on their character sheet. Example: I have a character who is level 10. During his levels he has spent XP and GP in the following manner: Craft Scrolls CL 1 - 15 CL 3 - 8 CL 5 - 4 CL 7 - 2 CL 9 - 1 Weapons [Ma]Shortsword [Ma]Mighty Composite Longbow +1 Items Sold Scrolls CL 1 - 4 @ 85% market CL 5 - 2 @ 85% market Weapons [Ma]Mighty Composite Longbow +1 @ 75% market Items Bought Scrolls CL 3 - 5 @ 85% market CL 5 - 2 @ 70% market (From a guild buddy) CL 7 - 1 @ 80% market (From a fighter who won it on quest) CL 9 - 2 @ 90% market (Rare scrolls) Everything that was crafted must have XP and GP tracked, as well as tracking where the gold went and came from for purchase / exchanges / and the possibility of bartering. My recommendation is this: 2 'Banks' and everything is run like a check book. 1 Thread for gold. A banker opens a thread and makes room for listing different characters. Each characters name has a listing of their current gold. Every player opens up a post, 1 post per 4 PCs, and uses that to log their own gold and expenditures and transactions. Put a notice at the beginning of the post if changes have occurred during the week and detail them in the post itself. The banker would then compare and confirm and update the master account record. The banker would list the last dated transaction for each PC and keep things in order. 1 Thread for experience. Just like above, but tracking experience. Examples: LLMadCow Accounts for: Mr. Big, Cliodhna d'Elrich, Herrix Ignatius & Tormud Bahr'ahk. Mr. Big Purchases 15 - 20 Large Arrows - 4gp from PC Xxxx Yyyyyyyyyy onDecember 5, 2004 16 - Cloak of Resistance + 4 - 15,000 gp from NPC Craftsman Steve on December 8, 2004 17 - 2 Potions of Cure Light Wounds - 80gp from PC Xxxxxx Yyyyyy on December 15, 2004 Crafted 1 - Trident - 15gp - on (Part of chcracter creation) 2 - Large Short Sword - 10gp on December 14, 2004 3 - Mythril Plate Armor - 8,825gp on December 18, 2004 Note: Crafting does not express proper time allowed to craft items, but is just an example of a gold log for one PC. Mr Big is in RED to show that there has been a change since the last transaction. The banker can look at his sheet and also the sheet for the PC he bought items from and make changes to each GOLD in the master record. All transactions are numbered and the banker notes what the last transaction number was in the master record. This may sound like a lot to do, but auditing a character would be sheer hell otherwise. I may advise that the XP Banker and the GP Banker comunicate to keep things lined up. Each Pitlord would also have a single post in each thread to track his weekly awards for fights; this would be updated after each fight and also tracked by numbers. This way the banker could, name by name, list what the last transaction was. Account info would list the last 4 transactions and only delete older ones once the banker has acknowledged them in the main thread. This is a lot to digest, but not too much to implement.
Piuro 12-20-04, 04:09 PM	Personally, I can't stand the 1/3 spell thing. What's to say I can't rest up before I trudge ahead. Im sorry, its just kinda stupid... Im willing to do all the work on the underdark myself though...
Caterane 12-20-04, 04:14 PM	Personally, I can't stand the 1/3 spell thing. What's to say I can't rest up before I trudge ahead. Im sorry, its just kinda stupid... 1) Balance between spellcasters and non-spellcasters who can swing swords all day long (their advantage) 2) Simulation of a real campaign (you cannot rest after every fight in a campaign) 3) Equality with arena gladiators who can memorize only 1/3 either. There's a difference between Short Quests(1week)/Arena fights, and Long Quests (3weeks) though. In Short Quests and Arena fights (where you fight one fight a day) you can only use 1/3 of your total spell levels. In Long Quests you can spend all spells as you wish but you have to do three fights on the same day.
Ashenai 12-20-04, 04:22 PM	Personally, I can't stand the 1/3 spell thing. What's to say I can't rest up before I trudge ahead. Im sorry, its just kinda stupid... Im willing to do all the work on the underdark myself though... The 1/3 spell thing would only be for the Arena and for single-fight quests. The reason is because D&D classes are balanced with 3 or 4 fights a day in mind; if they can rest after every fight, they are not balanced. See Evram for a good example of this. Frankly, we're really tired of non-spellcasters losing ALL THE TIME in the Arena after about level 7. In a 3-week quest with three fights in a single day, you could use all of your spells as you see fit, of course.
Jindl 12-20-04, 04:37 PM	I had a couple of thoughts about the reduced memorization: I agree with the intent, which Caterane just re-stated, especially the part about simulating a campaign. However, in a campaign, a caster often has effects which run all day (the prebuffs). So if you decide that a caster should face 3 challenges a day (before he can replenish his spells/pps), then in a campaign he still only has to cast his prebuffs once. So after prebuffing one time, he can spread his remaining spells/pps through the 3 encounters. This is not the case under Living Gladius, AFAIK. It seems that the caster's prebuffs come from the 1/3 of his spells/pps that he can use for the fight. So the 8th level wizard has to cast extended mage armor 3 times for 3 encounters, while in a campaign, one casting would last for all three encounters. I think there has to be a better way to do it. Here are a few suggestions which I think are better: 1. My preferred suggestion is to do 1/2 instead of 1/3. The extra 1/6th represents spells/pps available for prebuffing. Of course, this would mean that quests occur in 2 week increments instead of 3 week blocks, but thats okay too, IMHO. 2. My next favorite suggestion is to take what Snark was saying to heart. Let players decide how much of the resources their caster uses each fight. Simply set a schedule that every two weeks (real time), casters can rememorize. It could be the 15th and the 30th of the month (heh, just like payday!!). New characters, returning inactive characters have to follow this routine as well (meaning if its an off week, like the 7th, then they won't have any spells avaible until the 15th, so they should not activate until then). This solves the problem of a fresh character vs a tired one. Instead, every character is fresh/tired on the same weeks. I have plenty more to say about this suggestion, because I think it is the best one, but I'll move on for now. 3. If you guys are dead set on it being 1/3, then I suggest that the 1/3 occurs from whatever is left over after prebuffs. Personally, I think 1/2 better illustrates the difference between the classes as well. A wizard gets 5 spells per spell level (4 base +1 bonus). At 1/3 that means he gets 2 spells per level per fight. A sorceror gets 7 slots per spell level (6 base +1 bonus), which at 1/3 gives him 2 spells per level per fight. They are the same, and they shouldn't be. Under the 1/2 guideline, the same wizard gets 3 spells per spell level per fight, and the sorceror gets 4 spells per spell level per fight, which does a better job of keeping the advantages of the class. I have some other concerns about crafting, allies, etc. But for now I just wanted to address the 1/3 caster guidelines. Please let me know what you guys think. -Jindl
Ashenai 12-20-04, 05:07 PM	These are good points, and we'll respond to them shortly. First, though, I'd like to clear up two misconceptions: a) The way three-week quests would work for spellcasters is completely different from how one-week quests and Arena fights would work. On a three-week quest, there are no restrictions placed on a spellcaster at all, except the natural one; that all three fights of the quest take place on the same day. There aren't even any pre-buff rules: the caster tells the questlord when he puts his spell up, and the questlord knows when the next battle will be... the difference between these two points in time determine whether the pre-buff will still be on when the next fight comes along... and then the one after that. b) I believe you misunderstood the way the 1/3 system would work with spellcasters. You would not get 1/3 of your spells from every spell level. It's more flexible than that. What you would do is add up all your spell levels, then divide the total by 3, round up, and get the amount of total spell levels you can cast. To give an actual example, here's Ildechai's (level 8 wizard) spells from his last battle: Wizard abilities: -Spells per day: (4)/6/5/3/2 Spells Memorized 0: Daze, Daze, Daze, Daze 1: Shield, Mage Armor, Ray of Enfeeblement, Magic Missile, Magic Missile, Expeditious Retreat 2: Invisibility, False Life, Mirror Image, Hideous Laughter, Hideous Laughter 3: Dispel Magic, Dispel Magic, Fly 4: Greater Invisibility, Polymorph First, we add up all the spell slot levels. Ildechai has 6 level 1 spell slots, 5 level 2 spell slots, 3 level 3's, and 2 level 4's. 6*1 + 5*2 + 3*3 + 2*4 = 32. Ildechai can cast a total of 32 spell levels a day. Now, dividing that number by 3 and rounding up, we get 11. Thus, ldechai could cast 11 spell levels' worth of spells in every Arena fight. He can choose exactly which spells he wants to cast, as long as they don't add up to more than 11 spell levels. For instance, he could choose to cast Greater Invisibility, Polymorph, and Fly. Or all his level 1 spells, and Invisibility and False life... that'd only bring the total to 10, but since he wouldn't have any level 1 spells laft, the remaining 1 spell level would be wasted. Or he could cast Polymorph, Dispel Magic, Mirror Image, and two Magic Missiles. Any combination of spells totalling 11 spell levels. If we take the example of a level 8 Sorcerer with Cha 23 (to match Ildechai's Int 23): that Sorcerer would have a total of 58 spell levels castable per day, meaning he could cast 20 of them per fight! (58/3, rounded up) That's almost twice what Ildechai can manage. He could, for instance, choose to blast off all 4 of his 4th level spells, and still have enough oomph left for a 3rd level and a 1st level spell. As for your ideas on pre-buffs, I completely agree with your suggestion #3; I feel #1 is too little of a restriction (when coupled with the versatile system I outlined above), and while I think #2 is very nice and elegant, it is unfortunately difficult to keep track of, and has weird "bugs" like what happens if a character gains a level or gets a Periapt of Wisdom that gives him more bonus spells while he's not yet done with a three-fight "cycle". I believe #3 is the perfect blend of simplicity, balance, and usability.
Caterane 12-20-04, 05:14 PM	I had a couple of thoughts about the reduced memorization: I agree with the intent, which Caterane just re-stated, especially the part about simulating a campaign. However, in a campaign, a caster often has effects which run all day (the prebuffs). So if you decide that a caster should face 3 challenges a day (before he can replenish his spells/pps), then in a campaign he still only has to cast his prebuffs once. So after prebuffing one time, he can spread his remaining spells/pps through the 3 encounters. This is not the case under Living Gladius, AFAIK. It seems that the caster's prebuffs come from the 1/3 of his spells/pps that he can use for the fight. So the 8th level wizard has to cast extended mage armor 3 times for 3 encounters, while in a campaign, one casting would last for all three encounters. I think there has to be a better way to do it. We do have exactly that rule. :) For more, see answer to point 1. 1. My preferred suggestion is to do 1/2 instead of 1/3. The extra 1/6th represents spells/pps available for prebuffing. Of course, this would mean that quests occur in 2 week increments instead of 3 week blocks, but thats okay too, IMHO. In Short Quests and Arena fights, prebuffs do not come from the 1/3 pool for the reasons you mentioned above. In Long Quests, it will be completely up to the player when he wants to cast his spells. He will be informed that he has reached the "Quest Zone" (let's say, a forboding forest) and that from now on he will face the encounters, though not when (it is for the Questlord to decide but all fights must happen within 16 hours). He can now prebuff with mage armor (let's say, lasts 4 hours) or save it for later and enter the forboding forest. If he meets a monster after 1 hour, good for him. If not, mage armor wasted. Also, to prevent Questlord arbitrariness, he has to tell one GM/Elders before the Quest starts in which time increments the fights will take place. 2. My next favorite suggestion is to take what Snark was saying to heart. Let players decide how much of the resources their caster uses each fight. Simply set a schedule that every two weeks (real time), casters can rememorize. It could be the 15th and the 30th of the month (heh, just like payday!!). New characters, returning inactive characters have to follow this routine as well (meaning if its an off week, like the 7th, then they won't have any spells avaible until the 15th, so they should not activate until then). This solves the problem of a fresh character vs a tired one. Instead, every character is fresh/tired on the same weeks. I have plenty more to say about this suggestion, because I think it is the best one, but I'll move on for now. First of all, Long Quests and Campaigns will have exactly the leeway in casting spells that you'd like to see; see answer to point 1 above. In Short Quests and Arena fights player do pick their spells, just 1/3 of them. What they can't do is to choose how many spells they can cast in an encounter but this is a small price to pay for authenticity. Snark's suggestion is very artificial. Why should a spellcaster not be allowed to rememorize in two or three weeks? Piuro just asked why he cannot rememorize on the same day so this would look completely pulled by the hair. With Living Gladius, we put a lot of emphasize on the "living" aspect. We even came up with a believable explanation why people can only use 1/3 spells in the arena (because Gladius is dangerous and they have to protect themselves after the fight is over; see History Update in the LG description; "Options in Living Gladius"). It also creates problems if people are sitting out and whatnot. Keeping track of that is extra work we do not necessarily need. And all we have to forego is the freedom in deciding how many spells I can cast over my three encounters which I believe will even itself out to 1/3 anyway. 3. If you guys are dead set on it being 1/3, then I suggest that the 1/3 occurs from whatever is left over after prebuffs. Personally, I think 1/2 better illustrates the difference between the classes as well. A wizard gets 5 spells per spell level (4 base +1 bonus). At 1/3 that means he gets 2 spells per level per fight. A sorceror gets 7 slots per spell level (6 base +1 bonus), which at 1/3 gives him 2 spells per level per fight. They are the same, and they shouldn't be. Under the 1/2 guideline, the same wizard gets 3 spells per spell level per fight, and the sorceror gets 4 spells per spell level per fight, which does a better job of keeping the advantages of the class. No, not spells but spell-levels ;)
Snommelp 12-20-04, 05:27 PM	3. If you guys are dead set on it being 1/3, then I suggest that the 1/3 occurs from whatever is left over after prebuffs. Personally, I think 1/2 better illustrates the difference between the classes as well. A wizard gets 5 spells per spell level (4 base +1 bonus). At 1/3 that means he gets 2 spells per level per fight. A sorceror gets 7 slots per spell level (6 base +1 bonus), which at 1/3 gives him 2 spells per level per fight. They are the same, and they shouldn't be. Under the 1/2 guideline, the same wizard gets 3 spells per spell level per fight, and the sorceror gets 4 spells per spell level per fight, which does a better job of keeping the advantages of the class. Note that, according to the post explaining all of this, fractions are rounded up. This means that in fact your sorcerer with 7 spells would get 3 spells per fight (in the arena and 1 week quests). Ash and Cat have both pointed out that it's spell levels, not spells, but they both overlooked the rounding issue brought up (Understandable, with all that they've got on their plates).
Piuro 12-20-04, 06:05 PM	So anyone like the idea of me working on the underdark (Backstory, geography, personalities, locals, social life, and roleplaying)?
Snommelp 12-20-04, 06:16 PM	So anyone like the idea of me working on the underdark (Backstory, geography, personalities, locals, social life, and roleplaying)? Personally, I like the idea, but I'm not one of the big decision makers around here.
Dalton Onestone 12-20-04, 08:30 PM	The banking/XP auditing is a good idea. I also have a practical suggestion along those lines: Instead of having one near-infinite thread with character sheets, have a thread of the week, in which people copy and paste character sheets. That way the old versions are around for archiving. Formatting need not be lost on the copy/paste if you hit "Quote" or "Edit" before copying. Then in their new character sheet they could: A. Post a link to the last version B. Post a link to anything that caused the sheet to change C. Highlight the changes very clearly. Then somebody -- the "banker" or "auditor" -- would have to periodically audit the sheets to see that the gold/inventory actually were correct. To help with the auditing: A. At the end of every fight and quest there should be an inventory change summary, much as there is now at the end of every fight. B. There should be a transaction verification thread in which PCs who do deals with other PCs post the specific transaction, and the other PC posts validation, hopefully in a standard format. (Until they both post in the thread, the transaction hasn't happened for game purposes, unless an official person grants an exemption.) C. Character sheets for brand new PCs should go in a different thread than the thread-of-the-week for character sheet updates. Gold/equipment auditing shouldn't be too horribly burdensome in this structure, and XP auditing would be downright easy. Whoever maintains rosters could probably now add an XP measure to the roster with little incremental effort. The biggest challenge in gold/XP auditing would be "forgotten" events -- e.g., somebody consumes something in a fight and forgets to mention it on their sheet, or only one side of a PC transaction remembers to link it into their sheet. Otherwise, things should work pretty smoothly.
Ashenai 12-21-04, 03:15 AM	So anyone like the idea of me working on the underdark (Backstory, geography, personalities, locals, social life, and roleplaying)? Sure, why not? If you make it cool enough, people will no doubt use it in their quests, backstories, and so on. :)
MysticMonk2005 12-21-04, 04:23 AM	Frankly, we're really tired of non-spellcasters losing ALL THE TIME in the Arena after about level 7. AHEM* I take offense at that. Even Pard has become sucessfull. And he is currently the second highest pure fighter in the arena. I have absolultly no problem facing casters. I just know that it comes down the first round for Pard ^_^
T'Var 12-21-04, 09:46 AM	when is LG going to launch? id like to know before i post an ECL 7 char then cant use her for a month and a half
Ashenai 12-21-04, 10:04 AM	when is LG going to launch? We'd like to get it done for January 1, but we can't make any promises. It's a lot of work. id like to know before i post an ECL 7 char then cant use her for a month and a half It's likely to be more than that. Advancement has been slowed down (in accordance with popular demand: see the "Advancement Proposal Thread").
Dalton Onestone 12-23-04, 02:45 PM	What rules are you envisioning for trained animals in gladiatorial combat? For that matter, if you have sufficient ranks in Animal Handling, what are the overall costs and limitations pertaining to wild animals you raised?
Caterane 12-23-04, 03:11 PM	What rules are you envisioning for trained animals in gladiatorial combat? For that matter, if you have sufficient ranks in Animal Handling, what are the overall costs and limitations pertaining to wild animals you raised? Trained animals follow the same rules as all allies do: you can bring along any number provided their combined number does not exceed your ECL-2 or CR-4. Since there will be real time in LG, raising an animal from birth on won't be a satisfying option. However, you can train an animal you aquired in a quest (unless you killed it, of course). Training a trick takes one week during which the gladiator cannot do any other actions. On a sidenote: Gladiators and Time There are a lot of things your gladiator can do which cost time. Training an animal, or crafting an item (magical or mundane) are just some examples. For that reason, a player is advised to have more than one character available in case one of them is occupied with something that does not require your complete attention. Note that even with crafting or doing some other non-combat related action, the PC is considered active and counts against your number of active PCs. This is to prevent making 20 characters, of which 19 are just crafting.
Dalton Onestone 12-23-04, 05:58 PM	Trained animals follow the same rules as all allies do: you can bring along any number provided their combined number does not exceed your ECL-2 or CR-4. Since there will be real time in LG, raising an animal from birth on won't be a satisfying option. However, you can train an animal you aquired in a quest (unless you killed it, of course). Training a trick takes one week during which the gladiator cannot do any other actions. On a sidenote: Gladiators and Time There are a lot of things your gladiator can do which cost time. Training an animal, or crafting an item (magical or mundane) are just some examples. For that reason, a player is advised to have more than one character available in case one of them is occupied with something that does not require your complete attention. Note that even with crafting or doing some other non-combat related action, the PC is considered active and counts against your number of active PCs. This is to prevent making 20 characters, of which 19 are just crafting. For those of us without the DMing skills to earn credits, I guess that means no animals trained before the game starts. Gotcha. Thanks!
Caterane 12-23-04, 06:52 PM	For those of us without the DMing skills to earn credits, I guess that means no animals trained before the game starts. Gotcha. Thanks! We thought of that too :) It is still being discussed and I wanted to wait until we have a final decision but as it seems we're going to allow everyone to have two active gladiators for free. There are a number of reasons for this, and we are well aware of the effects. One of the reasons has just been named. If your character must do something non-exiting, like crafting or training an animal, and bearing in mind that this character is still considered active, non-pitlords would have some boring weeks if we wouldn't allow them to have a second character. There is still a drawback to them not pitlording - they have only 1 PC fighting - but this isn't any different from now so this should be acceptable. Not only non-fighting characters would not be available in the arena, but also those on a campaign or a quest, or those on any of the other events. This will result in fewer characters available for the arena, and we know that this might cause a problem if the ranks stretch too thin. Having more than one PC (pitlords may have even more gladiators) is counteracting to this effect. This however means that many might be happy to have two characters, and the urge to pitlord will decrease because one of the reasons - having a second gladiator - won't be any more. The only benefit of credits is now a third or more gladiator, and playing an exotic monster, which might not be motivation enough to pitlord fights thus we might lose pitlords (something that is especially bad now that everyone can have 2 PCs; we would rather need more pitlords). To increase the attractiveness of credits again - and this is what we're still unsure about - is to to create more options, more things that you can do with credits. Here are two ideas which are pretty tempting: Initially, we wanted to allow custom made items as an Add-on in a later phase, but we will probably not follow through with this idea. Instead, you can now pay for the right to buy/craft custom items by paying credits. The Custom Item must follow a logical pattern, and must not break the balance of the game, but asides from that, there is no limit other than the players creativity. Custom Items will have a considerable credit price to ensure that having a custom item is something special indeed. Note that paying the credits does not free you from paying the correct gold price. An example of a custom item would be a headband of intellect and wisdom which combines the boost to two skills thus saving a slot. The second way to put your credits to good use is the creation of custom spells. As with custom items, custom spells must follow a logical pattern (as a template we would use existing spells) and they must be balanced and not game-breaking. If the latter seems to be the case after the spells has been used in a couple of fights, the player is advised to replace the spell with another one. Since custom spells are a more complicated matter than items, we would probably consult the Council of Elders before we approve individual spells. Note that both methods are Core. There might be other ways to increase the attractivness of credits and you are all invited to participate in finding them.
Dalton Onestone 12-23-04, 08:16 PM	We also need ways for inexperienced DM types to earn credits. E.g., checking character sheets (which I at least seem to have a little knack for), or the more complex auditing tasks that might come down the road.
Caterane 12-23-04, 10:15 PM	We also need ways for inexperienced DM types to earn credits. E.g., checking character sheets (which I at least seem to have a little knack for), or the more complex auditing tasks that might come down the road. Right. Auditing 10 gladiator levels will earn you a credit aswell. I forgot to mention that.
Dalton Onestone 12-23-04, 11:57 PM	Right. Auditing 10 gladiator levels will earn you a credit aswell. I forgot to mention that. I hope that's for one gladiator, or 10 gladiators at any one level, or combos like that. :) All gladiators through 10 levels should be worth quite a few credits ...
Caterane 12-24-04, 04:35 AM	I hope that's for one gladiator, or 10 gladiators at any one level, or combos like that. :) All gladiators through 10 levels should be worth quite a few credits ... That is correct.
Dalton Onestone 12-24-04, 07:11 AM	That is correct. And is it for following one gladiator all the way through a whole level, or is just for a week?
Caterane 12-24-04, 07:25 AM	And is it for following one gladiator all the way through a whole level, or is just for a week? Perhaps I haven't explained it clearly enough so I will do so now. You can always audit characters to earn credits. Everyone is allowed to do this. You will get one credit for every ten character levels you have audited. This can be distributed among several low level gladiators, or one high level gladiator, but once you begin to audit a character you must audit him from beginning to end (in most cases from level 2 on) else it is pointless because the audit is incomplete. Example: Dalton wants to earn some credits by auditing characters. He picks Herrix Ignatius (ECL 9), Cloud Strife (ECL 2), and Archangel Ixenthor (ECL 9) which sums up to 20 levels, equalling 2 credits. However, Ixenthor has a +4 LA so there are effectively only 5 levels to audit. Since Dalton wants to get the second credit, he picks a lvl 4 (or higher) character to get 20 levels together. I am aware that - since the 1st level is missing - there is effectively one level less to audit but for simplicities sake we grant the Auditers that much so they have effectively a level less to audit. It is also prefered to audit higher level gladiators. There is almost no point in auditing a fresh level 2 character so you won't earn a cheap credit by 'auditing' the complete Level 2 League. Once the audit is complete, the auditor sends the results to one of the GMs/Elders so that they can check it. Results should be a list with a complete breakdown else one could just say "Gladiator Herrix is ok" without having done anything.
Pittbull 12-24-04, 08:05 AM	Will it still be possible too add a template to an existing character by spending credits? LL did this some months ago and paid 4 credit for 1 LA, right? I'm planing to do this with my next build Boraxx.
Caterane 12-24-04, 08:18 AM	Will it still be possible too add a template to an existing character by spending credits? LL did this some months ago and paid 4 credit for 1 LA, right? I'm planing to do this with my next build Boraxx. It depends on the kind of template. Inherited templates won't be possible but other templates will be allowed to add later for the price of 4 credits per LA. The reason for increased price is that it is more difficult to play through the lower levels with a template PC than to add it later. Examples for valid templates would be Lycanthrope, Vampire, or Lich. Templates that wouldn't be allowed are Half-Celestials/Fiends, Half-Dragons (unless through the Dragon Disciple Prc), and similar inherited templates which must be taken from the beginning on. LLMadCow's Clio was an exception.
Dalton Onestone 12-25-04, 02:08 AM	But if all the characters are going to be new, shoudln't the auditor ideally be following a character from inception?
T'Var 12-25-04, 02:51 AM	But if all the characters are going to be new, shoudln't the auditor ideally be following a character from inception? not nessessarily you might miss something at level 4, then assume it is correct on level 5 where as if you are looking over a new char every week you might catch something that someone else missed
Dalton Onestone 12-25-04, 05:35 AM	I think there may be some unfortunate plans or assumptions about auditing procedure. Here's what I think procedure SHOULD be. Player posts a character sheet. Auditor copies it, and posts it with a seal of approval in his own name. That is then a permanent record of the audit at a specific point in time. Somebody can recheck the auditor's work, as a third opinion, but at some point it should be assumed that the audited work is correct, and can be relied on as a starting point for further audits. That's a procedure that can lead to accuracy and efficiency. And if an auditor OKs something and turns out to be incorrect? That's a bad thing. Probably over time every sheet should be audited twice, but no more, and maybe every N levels, for N an integer significantly greater than 1, a gladiator should be reaudited completely from scratch.
Piuro 12-25-04, 06:58 AM	You lost me after "I think".
Kemal 12-25-04, 09:54 AM	Nice Idea! Keep working on that! As a spellcaster I like even the Idea of the 1/3 Spellrule, because in my opinion spellcasters are still to strong and not balanced. In a true RPG dungeon crawl no spellcaster would fire out all his spells in a combat fight... The arena is making progress...
Beldin 12-25-04, 10:28 AM	But a spellcaster would use all his spells if he had an encounter of an equal CR. Safing spells for later when you are dead is ... stupid.
Caterane 12-25-04, 10:49 AM	But a spellcaster would use all his spells if he had an encounter of an equal CR. Safing spells for later when you are dead is ... stupid. In Gladius, you are ressurected for free in the arena but once you go home, you are vulnerable outside the Nimbus. If you spent all spell in the arena, you might end up dead after a nightly visit of Kelek ;) There might be situations where a wizard will spend all of his spells on one encounter but these are rather rare, perhaps the Big Boss fight IF you had a chance to rest before it. In most campaigns you either have to battle your way to the BBEG, or have several encounters a day. Still, if you definately do not like the way the 1/3 rule works in the arena, you can always go on Long Quests where it is completely up to you how to use your spells. PS: Buy a dagger ;)
Ashenai 12-25-04, 10:50 AM	But a spellcaster would use all his spells if he had an encounter of an equal CR. So what if he had three of those per day? Safing spells for later when you are dead is ... stupid. You can't consider Arena fights to be fights against equal CR at all, because dyíng in the Arena is no big deal. Obviously, no character could survive for long if they were to lose a level and money for a Raise Dead every time they died in the Arena. And yet that would be a required part of the CR of a challenge. The whole reason high-CR challenges normally give greater rewards is to balance out the greater risk of death.
Beldin 12-25-04, 11:55 AM	"Hahaa annother Lightning and he is dead. Oh no, I have used 1/3 of my spells." Takes his Dagger, charges and is killed. Same with the next two fights - insted of winning one or two of them. I just wanted to say that a mage should be able to choose when he uses his spells. If he used 2/3 in one then he might not have enough for other encouters - but at least he has survived this one.
T'Var 12-25-04, 12:09 PM	"Hahaa annother Lightning and he is dead. Oh no, I have used 1/3 of my spells." Takes his Dagger, charges and is killed. Same with the next two fights - insted of winning one or two of them. I just wanted to say that a mage should be able to choose when he uses his spells. If he used 2/3 in one then he might not have enough for other encouters - but at least he has survived this one. I agree with this..in a campain you are not going to use 1/3 your spells vs a pack of orcs, but you may use 2/3s vs a pair of ogres I think that if we doing multi fights a day you should be able to choose how many spells you want to use vs a certain enemy. and if we are just doing the 1 fight per day in the arena she should be able to cast her full complament. the meaning of arena is not to simulate a real adventure, it is a 1 on 1 duel may the strongest win Now im no fan of going up against a mage with a figher, however i dont think crippling them is right either
Pittbull 12-25-04, 12:14 PM	OK, we start at ECL2. I'd to make a were-boar build, but this far beyond ECL2. To make this build you need 15 credits ([3LA(natural) + 3animal + 1 Characterlevel -2]x3=15), so my suggestion would be: I pay 15 credits to bring Boraxx in starting with ECL2 and all his abillities coming from the template are inactive until there is the opportunity to boost him to this his full power(there is a high enough ECL-league). Kind of sleeping abillities. This offers a lot of roleplaying.
Ashenai 12-25-04, 08:13 PM	I agree with this..in a campain you are not going to use 1/3 your spells vs a pack of orcs, but you may use 2/3s vs a pair of ogres I think that if we doing multi fights a day you should be able to choose how many spells you want to use vs a certain enemy. So far, we are in agreement. In a Long Quest or a Campaign (3 fights per game day), you will be completely free to decide when and what to cast, just like in a real campaign. and if we are just doing the 1 fight per day in the arena she should be able to cast her full complament. the meaning of arena is not to simulate a real adventure, it is a 1 on 1 duel may the strongest win Now im no fan of going up against a mage with a figher, however i dont think crippling them is right either "Crippling" is a very relative term. Dalton Onestone brought up the example of a level 2 mage fighting a level 2 Barbarian. Now, note that the mage is the weakest at level 2. And still, my example showed that even with 1/3 spells, the level 2 mage is still slightly more powerful than the level 2 Barbarian. I feel that the Arena was very much hurt by the fact that spellcasters could use their entire complement of spells against non-spellcasters. This made non-spellcasters completely unworkable without exploiting various degenerate tactics: Angosh had a level 16 spellcaster cohort who was, in fact, a lot more dangerous than he was, Pard had a pegasus to enable round 1 kills, and Ixenthor can unleash a Griffon on his foes in Round 1. We've had several people chime in to approve of the 1/3 rules, and several people disagree. Cat and I are both in favour (obviously); while the matter is by no means closed, we'd like to hear some good reasons why you feel it's a bad idea. Personally, I'd like to see some successful Sorcerers in the Arena. I'd like to see some successful melee types. The 1/3 rule would do a lot to help both Sorcerers and melee types, while still not "crippling" other spellcasters; therefore, I feel it's the right decision to make. I'd like the Arena to be balanced. I don't want a mage to sigh in relief if he's going up against a fighter; I'd like all well-built gladiators to be real challenges regardless of class. Wizards are my favourite class. The first character I made here was a wizard. But I'd like him to win because I came up with more clever tactics than my opponent, and not because he's up against a melee build. There are only so many times the tactic of "Invis, Fly, Mirror Image, False Life, Greater Invis, Hideous Laughter, Hideous Laughter, Hideous Laughter; Polymorph, kill" remains an interesting tactic, and I think we're well past that point.
LLMadCow 12-26-04, 01:38 AM	Has anyone given some serious thought about the speed at which we will be advancing? I have, and I am not too thrilled about it. CoCo Now: Win one fight = advance or lose 3 in a row and advance. vs Living Gladius: Win three or four fights = advance or lose 12 in a row and advance. I don't know about the rest of you, but one of the more appealing aspects of The Arena is the fact that the character advances relatively quickly. Speaking from the point of view of one who has had to bump a character, I do not want to have to suffer through three months of losing and writing the same old useless tactics and wasting gold on possibly expendable items, etc. Now, I have heard the arguement that if you fight outside of the arena, you can advance quicker. Great. However, if the dice are against you, you get totally screwed and not only do you lose the cost of resurrection, you lose out on an entire level. AN ENTIRE LEVEL! Mind you, that level only took a month to earn, and now it is gone in one fight. This is not to mention the cost of miracles for outsiders. I would propose that no one ever loses a level for resurrecting, but instead they only earn 1/8 of a win. (Small chart for explanation) Arena Win = 1,000xp + 1,000gp Arena Loss = 500xp + 500gp Outside Arena Win = 2,000xp + 2,000gp Outside Arena Loss = 250xp + 250gp Make sense? Yes, it is cool to have a chance to level quicker, but not at the risk of losing a very hard earned level. Leveling after 2 wins is moderately acceptable. Something has to be done about this 12+ losses to level. That just sucks. The reason I originally proposed the BUMP system was to keep the game reasonably fun even if you do happen to lose a lot.
Pittbull 12-26-04, 06:57 AM	Has anyone given some serious thought about the speed at which we will be advancing? I have, and I am not too thrilled about it. CoCo Now: Win one fight = advance or lose 3 in a row and advance. vs Living Gladius: Win three or four fights = advance or lose 12 in a row and advance. I pmed my concerns about this issue to Cat. I think it was one of most attractive parts of the CoCo that you advance relatively quicky. It's very dangerous to slow this down, because a lot of people will be bored after while. Using real-time is a nice idea too, but combining all these time-demanding points, it might be possible that you need months to level. This is style I prefer in real-life, when we play at home, but I'm not sure if this will make the CoCo more attractive.
LLMadCow 12-26-04, 12:25 PM	I pmed my concerns about this issue to Cat. I think it was one of most attractive parts of the CoCo that you advance relatively quicky. It's very dangerous to slow this down, because a lot of people will be bored after while. Using real-time is a nice idea too, but combining all these time-demanding points, it might be possible that you need months to level. This is style I prefer in real-life, when we play at home, but I'm not sure if this will make the CoCo more attractive. Well, looking everything over, I have been wondering if, in our quest for real time and realism, that we are going to lose much of what makes the CoCo fun. I stand behind quick advancement. ANYONE who has every played a character bumped once or twice will tell you that they would never have wanted to wait 3 months for a Level increase, much less 6 months for two. I like the idea of quests and questing and Gladius events! To me, that sounds very exciting. There is nothing wrong with the CoCo having a custom experience scale. To me, the whole combination of losing = lose a level and a bunch of gold sounds bad. Right now, the only way to advance at a half way decent pace is to take a huge risk and fight outside the arena. I would be happy if our outside rate of advancement was 2/3 of a level per fight. In 4 weeks of wins you advance 8/3 or 2 levels. In 6 weeks of wins you advance 4 levels. I would be sad if there was EVER a chance that people lose EXPERIENCE and a ton of GOLD for a fight. (Not literally. I know a TON of gold is 100,000 Gold!) 2 wins to advancement wouldn't be too bad, and I say that anything more than 4 or 5 losses to advance is too much. Reality. If you want to imitate a real life campaign, accept that fact that the characters belong in a party and help each other out. In one fight the Ranger kicks some tail against his favored enemy, the Orcs. In another fight the Wizard jacks up ... just about anyone. In another fight, the rogue gets the drop on a spellcaster and tears him a new one. This is REAL LIFE dynamics. We do not play parties, we play lone adventurers. We do not want to advance like lone adventurers. Want creativity? Try this on for size: In Gladius, some major changes were hapening. After the destruction of much of the Nimbus, the death tolls rose. There was little that could be done beyond resurrect those who died in the field. A few of the Clerics got together with some of the mages to help find a solution. The solution came in the form of a [Pendant, ring, brooch, etc - perhaps some slotless item] that would extend the reach of the nimbus. When viewed from the Ethereal Plane, a cord of white energy stretched from the nimbus to the item. The [Xxxx] had a limited range, but could be made more powerful with dedication and much effort. Or something like that. It could be made so that: A) At the moment a person hits -9 HP, but before hitting -10 (Even if this means going from +15 to -22) they are instantly teleported to within the Arena, and end up in a special room or B) At that same moment they hit -9, they are frozen in a protective state and the state lasts for 1 day per level and the moment they are frozen, a corrosponding beacon activates - quests could be made to recover fallen gladiators. Imagine a trip to the outer realms to recover The Harvester who has fallen to some great beast! There are plenty of other ideas, but that's it for now. More to follow.
Snommelp 12-26-04, 04:04 PM	Didn't Cat or Ash say something about adding party quests to CoCo? If that's the case, you don't need to worry quite as much about death outside the arena, because Cedric the healer will be making a triumphant return. He might not be a very good combat cleric, but he's very dedicated to healing (+16 to heal checks at level 2 ain't bad). You may have to share some XP, but your life expectany rate in a party will increase exponentially.
Ashenai 12-26-04, 04:31 PM	First of all, notice that the advancement rate we propose is very similar to those given in the Advancement Proposal Discussion (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=340054) thread, which most people there seem to be in favour of. We realize that any change will alienate some people, and that we can never make everyone happy; we do believe, though, that the only way to save the CoCo from a slow stagnation and decline is through change. Since the evidence seems to point to most people favouring this change, and we also believe it to be good, we're rather in favour. @Snommelp: That was me, and I am in fact very interested in implementing party quests. This is currently a hot topic between Cat and me. :) Note, though, that party quests will not be implemented in the first "wave" of changes; we need to see if there are any unexpected complications or problems with things first, so we'd only like to implement the more simple and relatively problem-free changes first. This is just to prepare everyone; if Living Gladius goes live and your favourite feature is not in, please remember that it's most likely only temporary, because we'd like to make the change relatively pain-free, instead of having the entire CoCo collapse into chaos by trying to do too much at once. We'd like to get all the fun changes put in just as much as you guys. :)
SnarkHunter 12-26-04, 07:52 PM	Hmmm a thought then. You had mentioned it was possible to get sub forumms in the CoCo now? Perhaps we could set up a CoCo Classic (same great taste :P) for the reactionary types to play in. Where Living Gladius would be big, CoCo Classic would be small. It might also be a place to stear newbs, since it would be rather simpler I would imagine. It might be that this would steal some of the thunder from LG but remember that this would be for those who simply don't want to play in the new arena. And if you don't want to many of the old standby's going over...well you'll just have to make sure LG is fun then :D.
Caterane 12-26-04, 08:29 PM	Hmmm a thought then. You had mentioned it was possible to get sub forumms in the CoCo now? Perhaps we could set up a CoCo Classic (same great taste :P) for the reactionary types to play in. Where Living Gladius would be big, CoCo Classic would be small. It might also be a place to stear newbs, since it would be rather simpler I would imagine. It might be that this would steal some of the thunder from LG but remember that this would be for those who simply don't want to play in the new arena. And if you don't want to many of the old standby's going over...well you'll just have to make sure LG is fun then :D. Yes, we can have subforums, and infact the CoCo will be moved into one such subboard but just for conservation, backup, and as a "museum". We cannot have two active boards; the ranks of the old CoCo would be so sparse that it would be barely runable - if at all, and at the same time, LG would lose valuable gladiators. We are trying to get more gladiators into the ranks, for example by allowing 2 PCs for free so opening a second board would be counterproductive. And there is also the additional amount of workload by having to run 2 boards which simply won't be possible. LG already requires our full attention, and with 'our' I include the Elders (like you), and even voluntarily working members. Snark, I know you are a more traditional kind of guy, and that's ok. Living Gladius respects that; you still have the option to fight in the arena, and in the arena alone. You will level a bit slower, and you will earn XP but that's it. The CoCo will still be there... there will be just a lot of new structures built around it :)
Caterane 12-26-04, 09:41 PM	Didn't Cat or Ash say something about adding party quests to CoCo? If that's the case, you don't need to worry quite as much about death outside the arena, because Cedric the healer will be making a triumphant return. He might not be a very good combat cleric, but he's very dedicated to healing (+16 to heal checks at level 2 ain't bad). You may have to share some XP, but your life expectany rate in a party will increase exponentially. Update: Multiplayer Quests The above mentioned Quests are focused on one gladiator who goes on a solo-adventure. He chooses his Quest target and embarks on a mission. Multiplayer Quests are just that except that there will be more than one gladiator playing this quest, and all will work together as a party - the roleplaying reasons are completely up to the players or the Questlord. However, there are some things to consider when more than one gladiator is involved. First of all, there is a maximum number of characters that can participate in the Quest. So far, we have settled to four characters. These gladiators must be within one level of each other else the Quest becomes boring/frustrating to some members, depending on their relative ECL. And of course, where a party is involved, there must be shares. XP will be shared according to the regular XP table in the DMG. Found treasure is a more complicated matter since the higher level gladiators should also get more rewards than the lower ones; a level-proportionate share. The total treasure will be divided by the character levels into 'shares' and every gladiator gets one share per level. Example: Eiletha (lvl 3), Hagrid (lvl 3), Pard (lvl 2), and Ragnarr (lvl 2) go on a quest which they successfully finish. Throughout the Quest, they have found 4000 gold, a potion of fly (750 gp), a potion of resist fire (300 gp), and a +1 greatsword (2300 gp), for a total of 7350. Eiletha, Hagrid, Pard, and Ragnarr have 10 levels together so one share is 735 gold (7350/10). Now Eiletha and Hagrid get three shares (because they are lvl 3) which is 2205 gp, and Pard and Ragnarr get two shares equalling 1470 gp. Eiletha definately wants the +1 greatsword so she pays 95 gp and gets the sword which is her share. Hagrid is happy with the two potions (750+300=1050) and a bit of gold (1155 gp). The rest will be distributed among the Pard and Ragnarr so everyone got his reward according to his level. However, even though Eiletha was pretty happy with the greatsword, having an item price in gold is always better unless you definately find the exact item you wanted anyway. So Eiletha got the greatsword which has the correct worth according to her shares but with 2205 gp she would have had more leeway in buying equipment (including a +1 greatsword). And what if Eiletha - who is a cleric and cannot use a greatsword - doesn't want the weapon but had no chance but to take it? For that reason, item rewards are considered to have only 3/4th their market price concerning how much treasure will be in the Quest. Example: If the Quest Reward is 2000 gold. The Questlord can now give out 2000 gold pieces, or 1438 gp and a potion of fly (750* 3/4 = 562+1438 = 2000), or any other combination. Don't worry if this sounds too complicated to you. Quests must be announced and approved by the GMs and that is when the rewards will be checked and validated by us so the plain maths is left to the Questlord/GMs.
KerlanRayne 12-27-04, 01:05 AM	I have two issues to discuss: Firstly, I agree with LLMadCow. I would like it to look like this: Arena Win = XP Arena Loss = XP/2 Non-Arena Win = XP*2 Non-Arena Loss = (XP*2)/8 = XP/4 This will lead to 7 arena losses per level which I think is a bit more reasonable. Secondly, I think it should be 1/2 spell levels instead of 1/3. In the DMG it says that a party of four would run low on resources after 4 encounters with an equal CR. I have seen many places that it's supposed to use up about 20% of your resources per encounter. I don't think it's right to use that same encounter for 1/4 the party with only 1/3 the spells. Granted, some of these resources are HP which are regained after every fight (except on quests) so I would go with 1/2 of spells instead of 1/3. Speaking of quests, are all three encounters of equal CR? Because that would almost be a full day for a party of 4, how is one character going to do that without free healing? Seems too dangerous. Just some thoughts. What do you think? KerlanRayne
Dalton Onestone 12-27-04, 02:00 AM	Regarding treasure values: I suggest keeping it simple. Initial valuation of any found treasure should be exactly what they could sell it for to NPCs, namely 1/2 list price. All treasure could then be either truly sold or else "sold" to party members for gold (by auction if more than one member wants to buy an item at better than 1/2 list price). Then gold would be allocated to party members, less the amounted needed to pay for the treasure they're getting. If this leads to any outcomes undesired by the powers-that-be, I suggest tweaking the treasure given out rather than tweaking the allocation rules. It will prove easier to manage that way -- the value the party gets is simply what they can get by converting everything into gold, plus any excess created by the auction. Nobody ever has to worry about "overpaying" for an unwanted item, and questlords are free to determine the type of treasure by what's appropriate for RP purposes without worrying about fairness. There are a couple of possible anomalies in the auction process, but they should be easy to deal with. (And if you need an arbitrator/auctioneer, I can do it. I once gave a paper at an academic conference on auctions & bidding.) If necessary, change the amount at which treasure can be sold for (e.g., upping it to 3/4 of list price).
LLMadCow 12-27-04, 03:19 AM	@ALL - Quest Death = LOSS OF LEVEL + 5,000+ GOLD! This is bothersome. I honestly think the better choice is less experience and gold for a loss, but call it a day. Perhaps even instant teleport back to Gladius so that if a person was done with 2/3 of their quest, they have to start over, albeit with the gold they won from the first 2/3 and the experience they won. Raise Dead 5,450 - Lose 1 Level True Resurrection 26,530 - Do not lose a level, but is required for Outsiders. Gold Total Analysis by Level: Level 2 - 1,000 - Out of luck Level 3 - 2,700 - Still out of luck Level 4 - 5,400 - Maybe, but now you have NOTHING! Level 5 - 9,000 - Less gold than those of your NEWLY LOST LEVEL! Level 6 - 13,000 - Still less gold than those of your NEWLY LOST LEVEL! Level 7 - 19,000 - Maybe, maybe breaking even. Level 8 - 27,000 - Starting to be worthwhile, unless an outsider - WHO IS SCREWED! Level 9 - 36,000 - More worthwhile, but watch out for a thief WHO MIGHT STEAL YOUR EXTRA GOLD! Level 10 - 49,000 - Etc. Level 11 - 66,000 - Etc. Level 12 - 88,000 - Etc. Level 13 - 110,000 - Finally, an outsider can break even ... almost. Level 14 - 150,000 - Woo-Hoo! The outsiders can live again and not be totally screwed! Level 15 - 200,000 - Etc. Level 16 - 260,000 - Tired of commentary. Level 17 - 340,000 - You get the point by now. Level 18 - 440,000 - Just flavor text. Level 19 - 580,000 - [Insert snappy text here.] Level 20 - 760,000 - Moot point since we are light years away from having epic arena battles. DOWN WITH LEVEL LOSS!
Pittbull 12-27-04, 03:36 AM	I have two issues to discuss: Firstly, I agree with LLMadCow. I would like it to look like this: Arena Win = XP Arena Loss = XP/2 Non-Arena Win = XP*2 Non-Arena Loss = (XP*2)/8 = XP/4 This will lead to 7 arena losses per level which I think is a bit more reasonable. KerlanRayne Please don't forget that a loss means mostly, that your dead. So if you fight non-arena-fight and lose, you gain the XP, but lose a level. So there are a lot more fights to level if want to fight out-side the arena. I'm sure double XP does not equalize this problem. EDIT:@LL: OK! Just beated me by minutes, with a more impressive post! ;)
Caterane 12-27-04, 06:20 AM	How then CAN you get an animal ally in Living Gladius, if at all? Well, if you plan to get it as a companion, you must not kill it, unless you are willing to pay for its ressurection. There are many ways, subdual damage, sleep spells, or any other method to knock it out of combat. The reason for the monster fight is to make sure that the character is not stronger than the ally. Once it is beaten, we assume that the character uses his handle animal skill to convert it into a companion. Update: Questing for Allies In some cases, like with a druid's companion or a paladin's mount, the player instantly gets the ally without any special actions required. However, this is not the same for all allies. If you would like to have an animal companion for example, or a leadership ally, you must quest for it. Once you reach your destination, there are different ways to handle it. In case of (non-intelligent) animals, you have to subdue them somehow, be it with a spell, or subdual damage, or any other method that knocks it out of the combat. If you accidently killed it, you either have to raise it (which doesn't seem like a good option) or quest for it again, on another day. If you plan to animate it as an undead, it doesn't matter if you kill it (infact, you even must kill it). Leadership allies are different because of their intelligence, and the way to aquire it is up to the Questlord which can be almost any kind of situation, limited only by the creativity of the Questlord. Example: Perhaps your ally is an imprisoned princess who happens to be a fierce amazone and now swear allegiance to you? Or you have to fight your ally much like Robin Hood had to beat Little John in order to proof himself worthy of him. And remember, Robin didn't kill Little John, infact, he didn't even knock him unconscious so if you can proof your soon-to-be ally that you are superior (for example, you are at full health while he has lost more than 3/4, or he cannot hit your AC, or harm you, etc etc), he might even give up, and acknowledge you as his master. In the former example, you need not fight your new ally (the warrior-princess) but the one who imprisoned her instead (a fallen-in-love noble with his guards perhaps), but you won't get away so easily with Little John. The reason behind this is that you must proof to be able to defeat the companion (or, in case of the princess, an equal foe who entrapped her). This also forms a bond between the gladiator and the ally, making the ally seem to be more alive. And finally, it prevents frequent switching of the allies because you always have to embark on a Quest.
Einzelgaenger 12-27-04, 06:55 AM	It depends on the kind of template. Inherited templates won't be possible but other templates will be allowed to add later for the price of 4 credits per LA. The reason for increased price is that it is more difficult to play through the lower levels with a template PC than to add it later. Examples for valid templates would be Lycanthrope, Vampire, or Lich. Templates that wouldn't be allowed are Half-Celestials/Fiends, Half-Dragons (unless through the Dragon Disciple Prc), and similar inherited templates which must be taken from the beginning on. LLMadCow's Clio was an exception. That just gave me an idea. It is an inherited template(s), but it is of the same strain as a different template. If you started play as an aasimar or tiefling, could you later pay the 12 points (3 ECL difference) to go from that to half celestial or fiend. That may be a valid exception, because there is no planetouched-disciple class... EDIT: *reads up* on the note of the other discussion above, I believe that level drops and xp loss is fine and dandy for home games, but I don't think it is appropriate in an online setting like that proposed for Gladius. Perhaps leveling should be slower than standard CoCo, but the setbacks of lost levels are likely to demoralize many players, especially when there isn't any face-to-face interaction offered by home games. For the sake of keeping it fun, dropping level drops might be nice.
Ashenai 12-27-04, 06:56 AM	I have two issues to discuss: Firstly, I agree with LLMadCow. I would like it to look like this: Arena Win = XP Arena Loss = XP/2 Non-Arena Win = XP*2 Non-Arena Loss = (XP*2)/8 = XP/4 This will lead to 7 arena losses per level which I think is a bit more reasonable. This is terribly unbalanced, I'm afraid. It'll lead to people advancing much quicker out of the arena than in it. Secondly, I think it should be 1/2 spell levels instead of 1/3. In the DMG it says that a party of four would run low on resources after 4 encounters with an equal CR. I have seen many places that it's supposed to use up about 20% of your resources per encounter. I don't think it's right to use that same encounter for 1/4 the party with only 1/3 the spells. Granted, some of these resources are HP which are regained after every fight (except on quests) so I would go with 1/2 of spells instead of 1/3. Speaking of quests, are all three encounters of equal CR? Because that would almost be a full day for a party of 4, how is one character going to do that without free healing? Seems too dangerous. Just some thoughts. What do you think? I believe many people are misunderstanding Quests. The entire reason you get double XP outside of the Arena is so that you can advance at a reasonable rate without having to fight an equal CR quest all on your own. Don't forget, you can choose the CR of the quest you go on. Naturally, you can feel free to go on a CR 8 quest with an ECL 8 character. If you survive, you'll get a whole lot of XP, but... well, you aren't likely to survive. No, the reason double XP is implemented is so that ECL 8 characters can go on CR 6 challenges (or 4 ECL 8 characters can go on a CR 8 challenge), and still get decent XP. Don't forget, quests are optional. If you're afraid you might die, then don't go on many quests, or go on a lower-CR quest. Also, if you're in a quest and running low on spells, you can always abort the quest. You'll still get the XP and treasure from the battles you've already fought.
Pittbull 12-27-04, 07:42 AM	Don't forget, quests are optional. If you're afraid you might die, then don't go on many quests, or go on a lower-CR quest. Also, if you're in a quest and running low on spells, you can always abort the quest. You'll still get the XP and treasure from the battles you've already fought. Yes, it's clear that they are optional, but the main problem is, that the risk of dying is to high under these conditions, exspecially in lower levels, it'll takes weeks, perhaps months, to recover from a death regarding money and experience. I see the problem that a lot people won't use the option of a quest. How can you abort a quest during a fight? Do you want it to be played like round by round as in a role-play-thread?
Caterane 12-27-04, 09:32 AM	How can you abort a quest during a fight? Do you want it to be played like round by round as in a role-play-thread? Update: Abandoning Quests Since Quests and Campaigns take place outside the protective nimbus, they are much more dangerous, and fighting to the death is something not everyone wants to do. For that reason, you can always abandon a Quest or Campaign. You may keep all XP and treasure you found so far, but the Quest itself is considered a failure. There are two ways to abandon a quest. Between fights: This is only possible during Long Quests and Campaigns where you have more than one fight before the Quest is completed. You just have to tell the Questlord that you want to abandon the Quest and you will travel home to Gladius. During fights: You can retreat while you are fighting an opponoment. This comes in two steps: The first step is to move off the map which might be easy or difficult, depending on the enviroment you are fighting in. Until you have left the map, the fight will continue as normal. When your character has left the map, it is up to the Questlord to decide if you escape your persuer or not. Once you have abandoned the Quest, your character will travel back to Gladius. Example: -s for retreats... let's say, against a host of orcs. Ex Nihilo runs away with his speed 70, while Ixenthor can just take to the sky. T'Var might be able to hide somewhere and wait until the orcs give up - of course, only if the region allows hiding. The Professor will just teleport right back to Gladius, and our heavy armored dwarven tank Dusk the Adamant won't be able to retreat at all (unless he has an item that helps him to retreat).
Caterane 12-27-04, 11:13 AM	After much debate and considering the concerns posted here, Ash and I agreed on a new approach concerning death which is less punishing if you die, and also solves some other problems concerning wealth imbalance and true ressurections needed for outsiders. Update: Dying outside the Nimbus Quests and Campaigns that take place in the non-protected city districts aswell as all adventures beyond the city walls are much more dangerous. If you die outside the Nimbus, you will lose all XP but no more than is required to stay at the current level, as well as wealth according to what you have earned during your current level. As a guideline, we will use the table on p.51 in the DMG: "Treasure values per encounter" to see how much a character loses. Example: Taryn Thunderstorm (Level 7) has fought 3 times since he leveled up to his current level: He won twice in the arena, and lost once. He earned (let's say) 4500 XP from these fights which brings him to 25.500 XP. He also earned ~6000 gp [2600*2 (the wins; DMG p51) +2600/3 (the loss)] since he has leveled to ECL 7. Sadly, the noble paladin dies on one of his holy quests outside Gladius while fighting a blackguard who has taken some Gladiosian prisoners. Taryn loses 4500 XP which brings him to 21000 - the minimum amount required to be level 7 (so no level loss), and the Blackguard loots 6000 gp worth in gp and items before he is being chased off by Celestial Forces reinforcements who came to aid Taryn. Taryn has to regain his XP and gold from the beginning of Level 7 but he will have no disadvantages other than having lost the work of 3 weeks, nor will he have to do the frustrating work of un-leveling his character. A new level will be like a home plate: once attained, you cannot lose it anymore though you can fall back within the level. So going on a Quest is still risky but it won't be as frustrating while still being very close to the Core Rules that are used in a RL campaign. Roleplaying Explanation: In order not to make this sound artificial and justifying the slightly different effect from what is proposed in the rule books, we came up with some reasons for the XP loss, the free ressurection, and the lost wealth. History update: Excerpt from the book "The Nimbus" [...]and while the Nimbus' most fascinating ability is to ressurect those that died within its confines, a secondary function is to allow ressurections without the need for a material component. The same is true for spells like wish and miracle if they are used to reunite body and soul. Still, even those who are true ressurected still lose some of their recently acquired memories but compared to the regular way magic works, it is still the better deal. History update: Excerpt from the speech of High Radiance Enzoul Ratrani of the Celestial Forces concerning gladiators killed outside Gladius "One of the greatest gifts in existance is that of Life itself which is especially protected by the blessing that is the Nimbus, that allows us to ressurect those who unnaturally deceased before their time has come even if they died outside Gladius on their duty. Therefore, the Celestial Forces offer to monitor good gladiators that venture beyond the city walls, and teleport them back in case they died. A special sub-organization called The Celestial Protectors will be formed which will be soley responsible for this task, and they will be sponsored by a reasonable fee, payed by the deceased one." History update: Gladiosian Herald, Nightal 27, 1338 GR; Leading article: After the very successful installation of the Celestial Protectors, a sub-organization within the Celestial Forces, many gladiators that never returned from their trips could be retrieved and ressurected thus increasing the ranks of the Just and Righteous. However, since the Celestial Forces concentrate their efforts on those of good alignment, rumors about the founding of rival organizations who are not as picky, are the primary tavern talk these days. We will have to wait and see if there is more to that gossip. ======================================== Reason: Asides from the frustrating factor which might have caused some to abandon their dead character, another problem with 5000 gold and a level loss was that it would create an imbalance between characters of the same level: a lowlevel gladiator has no chance to pay this price without having to sell most of his items, while a higher gladiator would actually benefit from death because he is now in a lower league with much more gold than the other gladiators, and he now has a chance to earn the same amount of money again. A Level 18 gladiator who dies 3 times in a row, would be 240.000 gold pieces ahead.
Dalton Onestone 12-27-04, 05:51 PM	The reason for the monster fight is to make sure that the character is not stronger than the ally. Thanks. I guess that ally stuff makes sense. Although I suspect the above is a typo. :D Moving along, I'd like to question the notion that one can fight OR do something else in a given week, but not both. I can see why quests and magical item crafting would each interfere with arena combat (or vice-versa). But why can't a bard fight and give performances the same week? Why can't an armorer fight and make armor (at least at a reduced rate of speed) the same week?
LLMadCow 12-27-04, 07:30 PM	Who wants to be broke? If anyone literally wants to be broke, feel free to send LLMadCow all of your money via PayPal (http://www.paypal.com). Just use my Arena listed e-mail. Thanks. :cool: If anyone wants to be broke in the Arena, then go along with this plan. We have come a only part way in coming to a solid and welcome concensus on the whole resurrection issue. I TOTALLY agree with the losing current Experience to drop you to even with your current level. Great idea and very welcome in the game. I can't agree with the gold. I am sure that some think this is a fine idea, but I am looking for some balance. As Caterane earlier mentioned, the higher level characters could die and be resurrected without much of an impact on their gold. They could even go so far as to pay for True Resurrection which costs no level, but a 5x as much gold. So, this new plan isn't very fair to high level characters at all. I am leaning towards... 1/3 Gold earned at current level! Why, you might ask? Well, when you look at the difference between Level 10 and Level 11, one might say the average level, you have 17,000 gold earned. The cost of Raise Dead: 5,450 is roughly 1/3 of that number. Otherwise what we have is the inability to use the gold we earn until we have reached the next level. That's no fun. What if you only need an extra 2,500 gold to buy that new item you want? Should you have to wait until leveling to buy it? Why not buy it when you earn 7,500 out of the 17,000 you will be getting between 10th and 11th level? No, you have to wait. Why? Just in case you die, and they need their gold! That stinks. Not to mention that higher level characters get a bit lambasted. Imagine having won 75,000 gold on your way to Level 18 and <Que Dramatic Music> YOU DIE! Well, you could easily afford the 25,000 True Resurrection and have no Experience Loss and still be ahead by 50,000 gold. See my point? I think that we still need some refinement, but we are on the road to victory!
Snommelp 12-28-04, 02:02 AM	The problem, LLMadCow, with your plan is people would quickly discover that they could cheat the system simply by dying every few fights to avoid leveling. We would eventually end up with a level 2 gladiator who had over 1 million gp, which is a far cry from the recommended gp for level 2 in the Core Rulebooks, which we are trying to preserve. With Caterane's plan, nobody is going to go broke. The absolute worst that will happen is that they will end up with the same amount of money as everyone else at their level. You complain about one plan being unfair to lower level characters, then complain about the new plan being unfair to higher level characters, when your own proposed plan is unfair to everyone who is trying to play fair.
Poe The Great 12-29-04, 02:30 PM	Hey all! I'm a fresh face here, new to the whole CoCo thing. Anyway. I read up about all the old rules and how CoCo worked. I was amazed! It would give me the opportunity to create a character and have him duke it out against other even leveled characters. It would also give me a little something to do in my down time between my more involved real life D&D campaigns. All I would have to do is create a gladiator, occasionally level him up and buy new items, and send in tactics every week. I'm with LLCow in that I'm not sure if I like some of the new changes. To me, it almoust seems as if you're trying to change CoCo into an actual campaign, with incredible depth and it takes up a lot of time. I don't really think I want CoCo to change into something as involved as LG. I honestly didn't really care about the roleplaying, background information, or any of those things when I was interested in CoCo- it simply gave me an outlet to once a week take some time to make my character into a KILLING MACHINE. If I won, I leveled up and got money. If I lost, I didn't. Great. Now, advancement is slower- the fast advancement was part of the appeal. If I win, I don't level up, I gain exp. A few fights gains me a level, if I win them all. Being bumped to the next level now takes even longer. In order to gain levels at the pace I would be in CoCo, I have to do additional stuff beyong the Arena in which I honsetly don't want to do. Are all these complex changes for the better? Many projects fail when they try to take things to far- go for the extremes. I was once involved in a Never Winter Nights roleplaying server. It was a mostly simple world, but the people brought wonderful roleplaying to the table. They slowly made minor changes, and the world was still great. Then, one day, the world creator decided to do a complete overhaul of the world. The server went down, supposebly for a month. The hype for the "new" Ruin Valor (the server name) was staggering. It was supposed to be the best persistant world to ever come out for Never Winter Nights. It got to the point where everyone became so focused on the unneccesary things such as new zones, equipment looks, and all the other things that they did not focus on the roleplaying as much as they did. All the oldschool roleplayers left because of this. When the server launched, it was a disaster. The project was shut down for good shortly after. Now, I like some of the changes to CoCo into LG. I'm not sure if I like the ammount of involvement the average person is going to have to give in order to become succesful. You guys claim you want it to be open to everyone- Why slow down the advancement to the point that only those who have the time to quest and such advance at a reasonable pace?
Snommelp 12-29-04, 04:13 PM	As far as I can see, Poe, the reasons for switching to LG are threefold, each corresponding to one of the major changes: 1) Spellcasters have had their ability to cast spells impaired, firstly to give fighter types an actual chance of winning at higher levels and secondly because spellcasters (according to what is written in the core rules) were never meant to expend all of their spells for one fight anyways. 2) Advancement has slowed because of the extreme thinning of the ranks at high levels. There are gladiators at almost every level above 10 who are forced to sit around and wait because their opponents have all either dropped out of the arena or advanced. 3) The change has been made to "real-time" because it makes little sense for a person to be able to train a wild animal which should take weeks to train and then have that animal to ride in that week's fights. The same could be said of other things as well, such as crafting magical armor and weapons. Also, under the current system a player could theoretically advance their wizard's age to the maximum age for its race, so as to get the mental benefits of old age, and then keep that wizard frozen at that age so that it never dies of old age. There are other reasons for the above changes, and for the other changes as well. I just say what I know.
Ashenai 12-29-04, 04:19 PM	Hello, and welome to the Coliseum. We hope you'll enjoy it here. :) Your concerns are very valid, and well-put. In certain respects, they echo my own; I'm very well aware of how out-of-tune developers can burden something with unnecessary features until it is no longer fun. For this reason, one of the most important basic tenets for us was that the Coliseum should force none of its complexity on people who only have a couple of hours a week to spend on it. I think that in this, Living Gladius succeeds; a newcomer will still be able to ignore everything going on around him, make a character, post it on the thread, and have it fight other characters. The speed of leveling is something we have done a lot of debating and compromising on; in the end, we agreed on a speed that's very similar to those proposed (entirely independently of us) on the Advancement Discussion Thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=340054). This debate was held before we ever unveiled Living Gladius, and it seems to us that a majority of the people here approve of it. Nothing is set in stone, though, and we're more than willing to speed up advancement if--after a trial run--most people appear to be bored with it. We don't think this will be the case, but we've certainly been wrong before. To you, the Core Coliseum seems new, full of untapped possibilities. We old-timers, however, are seeing all too clearly a certain... stagnation. Changes are necessary, if the CoCo is to be kept alive. Over half a year ago (I wasn't even here then), we allowed the Psionics part of the SRD into the Arena, and the result was a renewed interest in the Arena; more new people came and things were good. Psionics are no longer new; all of the worthwhile psionic classes and prestige classes have been at least partially tested. Several of our long-timers have left, finding that there CoCo offered nothing new for them. We certainly don't want to cater only to the old-timers while alienating the newcomers, but it is our earnest hope that we're not doing that. The CoCo is not becoming any more like a campaign... unless you want it to be. If you want to just fight gladiators inside an Arena, then you'll be able to do that. We've tried to balance things very carefully so that no one will be left behind power-wise if he or she sticks only to the Arena, and ignores quests.
LLMadCow 12-29-04, 08:24 PM	The problem, LLMadCow, with your plan is people would quickly discover that they could cheat the system simply by dying every few fights to avoid leveling. We would eventually end up with a level 2 gladiator who had over 1 million gp, which is a far cry from the recommended gp for level 2 in the Core Rulebooks, which we are trying to preserve. With Caterane's plan, nobody is going to go broke. The absolute worst that will happen is that they will end up with the same amount of money as everyone else at their level. You complain about one plan being unfair to lower level characters, then complain about the new plan being unfair to higher level characters, when your own proposed plan is unfair to everyone who is trying to play fair. @Snommelp - Well, I have given a great deal of thought to your response, and this is what I have come up with: Die once, lose 1/3 of your gains since last level. Die twice, lose 2/3 of your gains since last death. Die a third time, and any after that, and you lose it all - now, start taking on reasonable challenges, or spend some time in the arena. Sound fair? This way it is not so devastating for those who die, and it allows you to spend some of your newly gained wealth, instead of holding onto it like some form of insurance 'Just-In-Case-You-Die' which seems unfair.
Poe The Great 12-31-04, 01:25 AM	I have other concerns I just thought of as well. For living gladius are we using the Magic/Psionic transparency? If so, does that mean Use Magic Device works for psionic devices? If not, no class (According to d20srd.org) has Use Psionic Device as a class skill. What to do?
T'Var 12-31-04, 08:05 AM	I have other concerns I just thought of as well. For living gladius are we using the Magic/Psionic transparency? If so, does that mean Use Magic Device works for psionic devices? If not, no class (According to d20srd.org) has Use Psionic Device as a class skill. What to do? Yes, Full Transparency has been in effect here, so dispel magic will effect psionics and so so
LLMadCow 01-01-05, 02:05 AM	@Cat + Ash Please give us some guidelines that we can at least do some ground work for LG. Are we going to start with ECL 3? Are we going to have 2 free PCs instead of 1? Are we going to stick with the Max at first level + [(Max + 1)/2] for each level after? I am anxious for Living Gladius. I believe that we can work out all of the kinks along the way. If you need assistance in any way, please let me know. I am here for the long haul. Please give us something to work with...
kedi 01-02-05, 12:49 PM	I thought asking the questions here would be more appropirate... How the old characters will be extracted to Living Gladius? Or, the old ones stay as the old Coliseum and new characters will be opened?
Naerdaloth 01-02-05, 10:51 PM	Wow, now that I've had a chance to actually read all this, it sounds really cool. Can't wait for it to start. :thumbsup: Well, just to make my post worth something... @kedi: I believe Cat mentioned that current gladiators are retired as NPCs or sent to a waiting room to be re-entered once new LG characters reach their level
Aramil Dunskar 01-03-05, 04:02 PM	Well well well, this little thing here may cause people to come back, and I for one am comming back :D
T'Var 01-03-05, 04:27 PM	@Cat + Ash Please give us some guidelines that we can at least do some ground work for LG. Are we going to start with ECL 3? Are we going to have 2 free PCs instead of 1? Are we going to stick with the Max at first level + [(Max + 1)/2] for each level after? I am anxious for Living Gladius. I believe that we can work out all of the kinks along the way. If you need assistance in any way, please let me know. I am here for the long haul. Please give us something to work with... any word on this yet? maybe i missed it somewhere else?
Naerdaloth 01-03-05, 05:07 PM	Oh, I have an idea/suggestion.. With this new world being implemented, I think it might be a good idea to open up new roleplaying areas. One thread doesn't seem to be enough to hold all of this stuff. Maybe new threads, for different buildings and locations, could be opened to allow players to roleplay more? It makes for more often interactions to happen to develop the character, develop friends, develop enemies.. all optional of course so it couldnt possibly have a negative effect. i think. ;p
LLMadCow 01-03-05, 05:29 PM	any word on this yet? maybe i missed it somewhere else? Well, I cannot speak for my second and third questions, but I know the answer to number one. Yes, we will all be starting at ECL 3. There is a slight change to buying higher levels ... from now on, every extra level will cost 4 credits instead of 3. So, starting at ECL 3, saves 3 credits, ECL 4 saves 2 credits, ECL 5 saves 1 credit, ECL 6 breaks even, and every ECL beyond costs an extra 1 credit per level. Check out the project thread I was working on. It has a complete list of playable races broken down by ECL and also a complete list of all playable classes and prestige classes. Each listing is linked to a full description of the Race/Class. Enjoy.
T'Var 01-03-05, 05:36 PM	thanks LLMadCow will do
Ashenai 01-03-05, 06:49 PM	Are we going to start with ECL 3? Yes. Are we going to have 2 free PCs instead of 1? Yes. Are we going to stick with the Max at first level + [(Max + 1)/2] for each level after? I don't understand the question.
T'Var 01-03-05, 06:51 PM	Are we going to stick with the Max at first level + [(Max + 1)/2] for each level after? Hitpoints
Ashenai 01-03-05, 06:55 PM	Hitpoints Oh, right. Thanks. :) The answer is yes. Any reason we shouldn't?
Snommelp 01-03-05, 06:59 PM	Two free PCs... maybe I should make a third, then...
Battousai2005 01-03-05, 07:10 PM	So, anyway. I was browsing the forum, and I came to this horrible and shocking realization: I haven't posted in this thread yet. :eek: :eek: :eek: Anyway, time to add my 37 cents. (all I have left. Dang. Need new job...) So, I'm looking at Living Gladius and I realize something: NPCs seem to have few jobs. No offense, but Mystic and I agree that we have worked pretty hard getting Pard and Kage up to the level they are at. Granted, Kage has made a lot of the way there on sheer dumb luck, but hey, its the thought that counts, right? Wait, I wanted to add something. Wait...its coming... :confused: :plotting: :lightbulb :dancin: GUILDS!!! Yah, I know they sucked big time when we did it last, but I think that was largely due to the pointlessness of them at the time. Reason they were pointless? Easy. There was no life outside the arena. It would add to the whole job thing. What better way for Kage to make a living than teaching swordplay at the Swordmaster Guild? Or what better way for Bilo to find a target than the Assassin's guild? Moving on... Gladius NPC's: How do I put this? NPC's are a vital part of any world. Ask some guys I know at school. They'll tell you they are important! :rolleyes: *Ahem* Sarcasm aside, we have a healthy system as it goes for NPCs. My issue is what happens when we get to higher levels and those characters come off inactive? My humble opinion is that people should craft NPCs in addition to characters. It can be fun, I think. Lets say, for example, that I want to form a secret society, but don't want to make a character with diplomacy. And lets face it. No one in their right mind will make a character with diplomacy in the arena. So I make a diplomat NPC to head the organization. Last thing, then I'm out. I think now that we have a living world outside the arena, we should start filling in stories for characters. This includes but is not limited to Prestige class story requirements. For example, an assassin is supposed to kill someone for no other reason than to join the assassins. Somehow, winning money in a gladiatorial match counts as 'another reason' in my mind ;) . So, now we have him hunt down and kill an NPC (another reason to create NPCs that are not gladiators, btw). Also, a blackguard needs to make peaceful contact with an evil outsider. So, how about a quest to find one? For fun, characters can develpe themselves somewhere other than the roleplay thread. A "Character Story" or "Character Develpment" thread, perhaps. It would be a little better and slightly less confusing (at least in my mind) to have a completely seperate "Challanges/prestige match" thread. So, those are my thoughts, small as they are.
T'Var 01-03-05, 08:14 PM	is x5 cost for expendable magic items in effect for LG?
Ashenai 01-03-05, 08:17 PM	is x5 cost for expendable magic items in effect for LG? Definitely NOT. @Battousai: Still digesting your post. :)
Jindl 01-03-05, 08:19 PM	<thinking ...>
Battousai2005 01-03-05, 09:51 PM	While you digest, one last question. I can't find when we plan to implement these changes. Are we planning on an entirely new forum while we're at it?
Dalton Onestone 01-04-05, 03:22 PM	Battoussai's thoughts echo a lot of my own, only he evidently states them with the authority of knowing more about this community than I do. NPCs, or PCs that are not suited for arena fighting, aren't yet well-defined in this scheme so far as I can tell.
Snommelp 01-04-05, 04:29 PM	Well I, for one, intend to test this new system's acceptance of non-fighting PCs. Cedric Fischer, the humble cleric of Pelor and healer extraordinaire, will be making a comeback. As soon as he resurfaces; he's vanished off the face of the Earth right now. Also look for Cedric to make an attempt at organizing a healer's guild sometime in the near future. LG already looks more promising for Cedric, though. With the addition of quests, I can have Cedric go hunt down undead, which means his Healing domain will finally do some damage.
Maverick Knight 01-04-05, 08:10 PM	Hey all, I guess this is my first post on these forums. What better place to do it, no? Maybe I missed it, but when is this LG all happening? Is there somewhere I can go to get the latest progress reports on its planning & development? (Not the musings and idea-juggling going on in here.)
Battousai2005 01-04-05, 10:46 PM	So, out of curiosity (and a suggestion my LL), will we retain our credits or do we start anew? (basically what I'm asking is should I make that dragon now or later?)
LLMadCow 01-04-05, 11:34 PM	So, out of curiosity (and a suggestion my LL), will we retain our credits or do we start anew? (basically what I'm asking is should I make that dragon now or later?) So far as I understand, any of the credits that we currently have will carry over; Cat and Ash should confirm this shortly. That is part of the reason that I am holding onto some of mine, not to mention the fact that I can continue to save more credits while we play up to a higher level. @Caterane and Ashenai - How are you determining when we start allowing the next level of characters. Example - How many new gladiators have to be at 4th level to start allowing credited 4th level PCs in? If I am allowed to make a recommendation, when we (as a whole) start reaching a new level, sit tight until 4 make it, then start up again allowing credited PCs in as well. Just my two cents. It helps keep the variety up.
Caterane 01-05-05, 07:30 AM	Hey all, I guess this is my first post on these forums. What better place to do it, no? Maybe I missed it, but when is this LG all happening? Is there somewhere I can go to get the latest progress reports on its planning & development? (Not the musings and idea-juggling going on in here.) Hello Maverick Knight! Welcome to the CoCo. You have arrived at a good time (well, it's always a good time to join :)) because today will be the last CoCo pairings. Living Gladius will begin next wednesday. You can make 2 characters (Level 3, 2700 Gold, 3000 XP) which will be paired against other lvl 3 characters. Since we don't have a new gladiators thread yet save a copy of the sheets on your computer. The new thread should be up within the week. So, out of curiosity (and a suggestion my LL), will we retain our credits or do we start anew? (basically what I'm asking is should I make that dragon now or later?) Credits will carry over to Living Gladius. Won't give away my 60 creds ;) Well I, for one, intend to test this new system's acceptance of non-fighting PCs. Cedric Fischer, the humble cleric of Pelor and healer extraordinaire, will be making a comeback. There will be the option of team quests but not within the first few weeks. Since Living Gladius will be a long-term game, Cedric will make good use of his healing abilities long before he reaches a high level so go ahead and ready him. However, for now I'd advice against characters who do not fight since the non-combat options of Living Gladius will take a long time to be added, if at all so a commoner might not be a good idea. So, I'm looking at Living Gladius and I realize something: NPCs seem to have few jobs. No offense, but Mystic and I agree that we have worked pretty hard getting Pard and Kage up to the level they are at. Granted, Kage has made a lot of the way there on sheer dumb luck, but hey, its the thought that counts, right? Kage and Pard can become NPCs in Gladius. For now, we leave this part in the background and focus on how LG will develop but we will definately create a detailed living city. In order to make this reality, we have to create a city plan, perhaps by using one of the many Map softwares, and go from there. If someone wants to do this he is very welcome. Ash and I don't have the time during the next weeks. GUILDS!!! Yah, I know they sucked big time when we did it last, but I think that was largely due to the pointlessness of them at the time. Reason they were pointless? Easy. There was no life outside the arena. It would add to the whole job thing. What better way for Kage to make a living than teaching swordplay at the Swordmaster Guild? Or what better way for Bilo to find a target than the Assassin's guild? Yeah Guilds didn't go well for mentioned reason. In LG however there will be more possibilities to include active Guilds, perhaps even with boni and penalties for being in one so once we introduce this Add-On (for this is what it will be) we can make them more interesting. This includes but is not limited to Prestige class story requirements. For example, an assassin is supposed to kill someone for no other reason than to join the assassins. Somehow, winning money in a gladiatorial match counts as 'another reason' in my mind . So, now we have him hunt down and kill an NPC (another reason to create NPCs that are not gladiators, btw). Also, a blackguard needs to make peaceful contact with an evil outsider. So, how about a quest to find one? Right, and this will be the case. In the CoCo some requirements were not fullfillable but in LG you can - and must - do what the prerequisites require, like going on a Quest to assassinate someone (this quest would probably take place in the city itself). As for the Blackguard, I was never fond of this Summon Monster 1 solution to make contact with a fiendish hedgehog. For fun, characters can develpe themselves somewhere other than the roleplay thread. A "Character Story" or "Character Develpment" thread, perhaps. It would be a little better and slightly less confusing (at least in my mind) to have a completely seperate "Challanges/prestige match" thread. This however will have the same effect as the old guilds. Few will read it and it will only create a mass of - I don't want to say useless - non-game-influencing threads. The roleplaying thread takes up one of the rare stickies so you should make use of this one.
SnarkHunter 01-05-05, 11:58 PM	Question re: allies. Is it in anyway possible to get a mount easily? I just find it a might annoying that a paladin (Moon-Moon's return!) can't buy a Light Warhorse till 5th level. You know, when they get thier special mount anyway. Le sigh.
Ashenai 01-06-05, 12:29 AM	Question re: allies. Is it in anyway possible to get a mount easily? I just find it a might annoying that a paladin (Moon-Moon's return!) can't buy a Light Warhorse till 5th level. You know, when they get thier special mount anyway. Le sigh. The nine basic animals you can buy that are in the "Goods & Services" part of the equipment table (guard dog, riding dog, donkey, heavy horse, light horse, heavy warhorse, light warhorse, pony, warpony) will be exceptions, much like a Druid's animal companion. Everyone can bring one of these animals to any fight without consequence (they don't count as allies in any way, but rather as a part of your character, like mage familiars).
SnarkHunter 01-06-05, 12:52 AM	hurrah! And I noticed from the rules you can have multiple allies now if they all suck yes?
Ashenai 01-06-05, 01:00 AM	hurrah! And I noticed from the rules you can have multiple allies now if they all suck yes? Yes. We're still ironing out exactly how much suckage is necessary; it's tough to balance properly. We'll get it, though. :) Don't forget, though, that with few exceptions, (Druid/Ranger's companion, Wizard/Sorcerer's familiar, Paladin's horse, and one of any of the above mentioned 9 animals) any ally used in combat will want 1/4 of your XP and gold for himself (and will then proceed to fritter away all of that gold and XP on booze and women). The number of allies you have won't matter, of course; it's 1/4 of your rewards gone whether you have a single Leadership ally or a small army of Animate Dead skeletons.
Dalton Onestone 01-06-05, 02:56 AM	Harrumph. If one of MY characters has a leadership ally, she will be female and very cute and ... well, come to think of it she can fritter away her gold on recreational activities, especially ones that involve me, her, plus other women ... OK. Sounds like a good plan to me!
Kaigan 01-06-05, 03:30 AM	Okay so we start LG next Wed, and we can have 2 lvl 3 characters with 2700 starting gold for both?
Einzelgaenger 01-06-05, 03:42 AM	2 level 3 characters? any point penalties for that? any bonuses for only one?
Ashenai 01-06-05, 03:46 AM	Okay so we start LG next Wed Yes. and we can have 2 lvl 3 characters with 2700 starting gold for both? The FAQ will be out any moment now. *looks mournfully at his fingers, worn down to stubs* At the moment, it looks like every ECL 3 character will start with 3000 gp and 3200 XP. (They get extra GP to go with the extra XP, and they get extra XP so that magic crafters can start with crafted items if they want). 2 level 3 characters? any point penalties for that? Nope. any bonuses for only one? Nope. Bring on the level 3's. :D
Ayatoshi 01-06-05, 08:57 AM	Is it still going to cost half as much to craft a non-magical item instead of 1/3rd as much?
Caterane 01-06-05, 09:11 AM	Update: Quests and Rewards Quests will use the same XP calculation and gold prizes as arena fights do. One of the reasons is that the threat of permanent death has been removed, and dying is less intimidating. Also, gladiators tend to be much better build and equipped than the regular MM encounter so their CR is probably 1-2 higher anyway. A much more important reason is that we risk that too many people go questing, and not be available for the arena fights. Once a gladiator is on a quest, he is occupied for 3 weeks which sums up over time. As it is now, the only restriction to quests is the number of availble Questlords but we might enact more restrictions if the number of Questers proofs to be a problem.
Dalton Onestone 01-06-05, 01:33 PM	Do I understand correctly that: A. One may have a nearly unlimited number of gladiators but B. Only two of them may be doing anything at all (fighting, questing, crafting, earning money, etc.) in any given week? C. Only one of the two may be doing something (fighting, questing) that requires Pitlord/Questlord attention in any given week?
Caterane 01-06-05, 01:40 PM	Do I understand correctly that: A. One may have a nearly unlimited number of gladiators but B. Only two of them may be doing anything at all (fighting, questing, crafting, earning money, etc.) in any given week? C. Only one of the two may be doing something (fighting, questing) that requires Pitlord/Questlord attention in any given week? A. Yes B. Two are free, any additional active character costs credits C. No, every gladiator may do what he wants
T'Var 01-06-05, 02:21 PM	Well i thought about being a sor. but at 3rd level i would have 2.3 spells, and die within 3 rounds. then i was going to post an Psion, but with the 1/3rd rule, noone is going to survive at 3rd lvl with a whole 7.6 pp to use. suppose Gladius is going to be land of the meat wall for quite a while
KerlanRayne 01-06-05, 02:45 PM	A. Yes B. Two are free, any additional active character costs credits C. No, every gladiator may do what he wantsI assume that active means fighting. Are characters that are crafting, training, etc considered active? KerlanRayne
Snommelp 01-06-05, 02:57 PM	Well i thought about being a sor. but at 3rd level i would have 2.3 spells, and die within 3 rounds. then i was going to post an Psion, but with the 1/3rd rule, noone is going to survive at 3rd lvl with a whole 7.6 pp to use. suppose Gladius is going to be land of the meat wall for quite a while If your sorcerer can't win with 3 spells (If I understand correctly, everything rounds up), then yes, you should play a fighting type. I have no doubt that the few mages who do show up will still have very good odds of winning, though, because their players will have plans for fighting against all of the "meat walls."
Jindl 01-06-05, 03:38 PM	Well i thought about being a sor. but at 3rd level i would have 2.3 spells, and die within 3 rounds. then i was going to post an Psion, but with the 1/3rd rule, noone is going to survive at 3rd lvl with a whole 7.6 pp to use. suppose Gladius is going to be land of the meat wall for quite a while With 3000 gp, I'm sure a resourceful mage/sor/psion/wilder can stock up on enough scrolls/powerstones to provide a challenge.
Caterane 01-06-05, 04:21 PM	I assume that active means fighting. Are characters that are crafting, training, etc considered active? KerlanRayne I don't know what you mean by 'training' but crafting is considered active aswell else everyone could just make 10 character where 8 craft and 2 fight. I have heard the argument that a headband of intellect+6 requires 6 weeks to craft (which is true). However, first of all you surely won't go from scratch to 6 but rather update it from +4 to +6 which requires 20 days or 3 weeks. Secondly, by the time you can afford such a powerful item you will be in a league where competition is sparse anyway and 3 weeks off might give others a chance to catch up. And finally you don't need to craft. Crafting - now that it costs only 1/2 gold - is very powerful, and essentially provides a crafter with twice the equipment than a regular character so this (credit-sucking) drawback seems a perfect way to balance it. Well i thought about being a sor. but at 3rd level i would have 2.3 spells, and die within 3 rounds. then i was going to post an Psion, but with the 1/3rd rule, noone is going to survive at 3rd lvl with a whole 7.6 pp to use. suppose Gladius is going to be land of the meat wall for quite a while No, it isn't the time of the fighter but rather do all classes have equal chances. In the old CoCo fighters faced the dilemna you just described. Now spellcasters must buy scrolls and powerstones and household with their spells just like fighters had to buy potions. Ash and I will play spellcasters to test the new system. I don't think spellcasters and manifesters will starve out; rather we will finally see more melee types, and perhaps some builds who formerly weren't able to compete at all.
T'Var 01-06-05, 04:26 PM	I don't know what you mean with 'training' but crafting is considered active aswell else everyone could just make 10 character where 8 craft and 2 fight. I think he means if your spending time to train your own animal of griffen or another type of mount as for my earlier point, I hope your all right, id like to play a caster, but ill let someone else take the first rounds of pounding before i make one up myself :P
Ayatoshi 01-06-05, 05:45 PM	Is it still going to cost half as much to craft a non-magical item instead of 1/3rd as much? Did my question get answered descretely or not at all if if so could it please?
Snommelp 01-06-05, 05:49 PM	At the moment, it looks like every ECL 3 character will start with 3000 gp and 3200 XP. (They get extra GP to go with the extra XP, and they get extra XP so that magic crafters can start with crafted items if they want). I thought I read someone say that crafting price was .7 gp, with the extra .2 being gp traded for XP... I guess that must have been me transposing the old system on the new. Looks like I'll have to recalculate Cedric's potions...
T'Var 01-06-05, 06:11 PM	Did my question get answered descretely or not at all if if so could it please? well since everything is real time, I would assume that all creation is now 3.5 standerd the problem before was unlimited time inbetween fights you could make a thousand swords for 1/3 and sell them for 1/2 and make unlimited money
Maverick Knight 01-06-05, 06:13 PM	Well i thought about being a sor. but at 3rd level i would have 2.3 spells, and die within 3 rounds. then i was going to post an Psion, but with the 1/3rd rule, noone is going to survive at 3rd lvl with a whole 7.6 pp to use. Good thing I made the character choice I did......... ;)
Snommelp 01-06-05, 06:47 PM	I think I'm going to have to make a wizard now, and make him specifically to win at level 3 with only one spell. After his first fight, he'll retire, win or lose.
Ayatoshi 01-06-05, 07:16 PM	what about before creation wouldn't you then be able to say yeah I made1000000000000000 longsword for 1/3rd price and sold them for 1/2?? they should leave the 1/3 but take away selling stuff before creation...
T'Var 01-06-05, 07:20 PM	what about before creation wouldn't you then be able to say yeah I made1000000000000000 longsword for 1/3rd price and sold them for 1/2?? they should leave the 1/3 but take away selling stuff before creation... you cannot sell items during creation. never could as you didnt exsist before creation
Ayatoshi 01-06-05, 07:28 PM	ok ty
Battousai2005 01-06-05, 07:39 PM	Ok, I was looking at what Ash and Snark had been discussing, and I have a question. Ashenai, you say that the basic mounts/animal companions/familiars don't penelize you XP. What about Mounts you buy such as Pegasi and Griffons? I assume you would want them to gain XP as well?
Snommelp 01-07-05, 01:56 AM	Question about the spell Animate Dead. Firstly, I am assuming that this spell will only be used on quests, since in the arena creatures are raised by the nimbus and would want their bodies back. The question is, do the dead raised take XP from you? If so, would the undead be able to take class levels?
Snommelp 01-07-05, 02:20 AM	I think I'm going to have to make a wizard now, and make him specifically to win at level 3 with only one spell. After his first fight, he'll retire, win or lose. The wizard has been made (not quite as planned), but I changed my mind. He's going to stick around until Cedric gets back from being a missing person. And the first thing I think this wizard should do is prove to T'Var that mages haven't been dumbed down to the point of being unplayable. What do you say, T'Var? Will Klaxon accept the first challenge of LGE? Be warned: I said he'd win with one spell, but I was wrong. He's going to be casting a whole slew of them at you!
T'Var 01-07-05, 09:52 AM	hmm....a summoner....intresting..... Ill have to scout him a bit before i deside
SnarkHunter 01-10-05, 02:59 AM	I just wanted to say I hope people won't be relying on Color spray for kills very much anymore. Once you get beyond 2 HD, it isn't that great. Sleep could work, but full round casting time will stop it, as will any sort of pet. In anycase, I should have two or three characters ready to go by tuesday so don't start this shindig without me ok?
Pittbull 01-10-05, 04:19 AM	Reaching ECL5, I will have a build ready, which suits perfectly to the Living Gladius-rules, just check my Pixie (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5203480&postcount=161) .
Dalton Onestone 01-10-05, 05:12 AM	What are the rules on familiar death in the arena? Do you take the XP loss, is or arena death too temporary to count for that purpose? Also, are your mounts and suchlike resurrected, or just whichever of you and your familiar, animal companion, and/or cohort dies? Finally -- if Leadership cohorts cost XP and gold for every bout, do they still cost a feat too? If so, why?
LLMadCow 01-10-05, 05:37 AM	What are the rules on familiar death in the arena? Do you take the XP loss, is or arena death too temporary to count for that purpose? Also, are your mounts and suchlike resurrected, or just whichever of you and your familiar, animal companion, and/or cohort dies? Finally -- if Leadership cohorts cost XP and gold for every bout, do they still cost a feat too? If so, why? Dungeon Masters Guide. Page 106. Heading: Cohorts. Instead of quoting it directly, I will just say this: All cohorts in battle with you earn their fair share of experience. It would be based on the experience earned and such, and I am not sure if the 1/4 experience is fair, generous, or theft - I am sure it depends on each situation. I personally think that the formula [Cohort Level / (Character Level + Cohort level)] would be fair if not a little sad. This would result in the cohort advancing at a moderate rate. Eventually they might catch up with a PC and this is not allowed by the Feat, so 1/4 XP seems moderate.
Dalton Onestone 01-10-05, 05:56 AM	That's not really an answer as to why they still cost a Feat if there's an XP cost as well. In the DMG, the cohorts' XP gains in no way diminish yours.
T'Var 01-10-05, 08:49 AM	That's not really an answer as to why they still cost a Feat if there's an XP cost as well. In the DMG, the cohorts' XP gains in no way diminish yours. very true...if we are trying to be as core as possable, we should follow the rules that Leadership gives. the pc gains 100% of the xp and the cohort gains a % of that, but does not Take it from the pc
KerlanRayne 01-10-05, 01:47 PM	Heres what the SRD says. Cohorts earn XP as follows: The cohort does not count as a party member when determining the party’s XP. Divide the cohort’s level by the level of the PC with whom he or she is associated (the character with the Leadership feat who attracted the cohort). Multiply this result by the total XP awarded to the PC and add that number of experience points to the cohort’s total. If a cohort gains enough XP to bring it to a level one lower than the associated PC’s character level, the cohort does not gain the new level—its new XP total is 1 less than the amount needed attain the next level. So no, they don't take XP from the party, which in Gladius is a single PC. They instead get a percentage almost equal to the PC. An 8th level cohort of a 10th level PC would get 80% of the XP compared to what the PC would get. KerlanRayne
Caterane 01-10-05, 02:21 PM	What are the rules on familiar death in the arena? Do you take the XP loss, is or arena death too temporary to count for that purpose? Also, are your mounts and suchlike resurrected, or just whichever of you and your familiar, animal companion, and/or cohort dies? Finally -- if Leadership cohorts cost XP and gold for every bout, do they still cost a feat too? If so, why? If your familiar dies within the Nimbus (City and Arena) then it will be ressurected with no consequences. Outside the city however, you will suffer the full effects according to the PHB. Same is true for other allies. The Leadership feat is the prerequisite to get a cohort. Even with the shared XP and gold (which everyone must pay to his allies) a leadership cohort has many advantages over handled animals, undead, or even mercenaries. We are aware that it is slightly different from what the DMG rules say but we're closer to the rules than the old CoCo is, and it is also necessary for balancing and simplicicative reasons.
Pittbull 01-11-05, 12:33 PM	Sorry I missed that: How do we handle crafting? 1/3 of the market-price or 1/2 of the market-price? That's very important for my charactor-creation. Thanks
LLMadCow 01-11-05, 01:12 PM	Sorry. Ignore.
Dalton Onestone 01-11-05, 04:01 PM	Sorry I missed that: How do we handle crafting? 1/3 of the market-price or 1/2 of the market-price? That's very important for my charactor-creation. Thanks That kind of mystery is why the FAQ is coming out right after the target date for submitting characters, rather than before. It makes things more interesting ... I'm pretty sure it's still 1/2.
Dalton Onestone 01-11-05, 06:59 PM	I'm beginning to fear a scenario in which s/he who spends the most gold wins. I've been looking over the character sheets and seeing things like a Potion of Fly for 750 gp and a Feather Token/Whip for 500 gp. I forget what the exact purse is for a victory (3/2 * 1/4 * (5400-2700)?) or for a loss, but spending that much gold seems counterproductive now that the purses are smaller in LG than they used to be. Even Invisibility/See Invisibility seem pretty expensive, although maybe I'm just being miserly.
Snommelp 01-11-05, 07:27 PM	What I forsee, Dalton, is this: people will start in Living Gladius as they acted in the old Core Coliseum, spending a large amount of one-use items in their first few fights. Then, when they reach the late fights and are out of expendables, they will see the error of their ways and begin thinking through their tactics instead of relying on fickle items. I know that I am one of the people with many items that can only be used once, but I for one am planning on only using them as last resort items. I may, concievably, carry my one scroll of invisibility all the way up to the fifth level before I finally use it.
Ashenai 01-11-05, 08:29 PM	If you spend more money on expendables for a given fight, you will have a better chance of winning. There's nothing surprising about that. So consider your options carefully; is the extra chance of winning worth the extra cost to you? If yes, use the items, if not, then don't. Simple enough. :) You are, of course, free to come to agreements between gladiators. I should note, though, that these should always be considered agreements between the characters and not the players, and are in no way binding. It's an entirely valid tactic for a tricky gladiator to "agree" with his opponent, and then use items anyway. If this happens to you, you should feel angry at the character, not the player. It's a dishonourable (and Chaotic) thing to do, but I'm sure we will have plenty of Chaotic and/or dishonourable characters. :) So when you're coming to agreements, take a quick look at your opponent's alignment and story... and be careful who you trust.
SnarkHunter 01-12-05, 10:13 PM	Here's a thought: If your facing a foe with an ally, why not give XP for defeating the ally too? I'm thinking like a mounted fighter-no question that a fighter with a heavy warhorse is a much more serious threat then most fighters without, so why not reward the gladiator who manages to take one down? In the upper levels of course, no 1 CR creature is going to make a difference, but down at the first rank I think it would be nice. My 2cp.
Snommelp 01-12-05, 10:20 PM	That does sound like a good idea, SnarkHunter. But perhaps it would be better if the XP for the ally was only given if the ally was also defeated. For the mounted fighter example, if your character only took down the fighter, you would only get XP for the fighter, but if you managed to defeat the horse and then defeat the fighter, you would get the extra experience. Sound good?
T'Var 01-13-05, 01:37 AM	Here's a thought: If your facing a foe with an ally, why not give XP for defeating the ally too? I'm thinking like a mounted fighter-no question that a fighter with a heavy warhorse is a much more serious threat then most fighters without, so why not reward the gladiator who manages to take one down? In the upper levels of course, no 1 CR creature is going to make a difference, but down at the first rank I think it would be nice. My 2cp. for the same reason you do not get extra XP for defeating a cleric who summoned 5 monsters durring a battle.
Ashenai 01-13-05, 07:21 AM	Here's a thought: If your facing a foe with an ally, why not give XP for defeating the ally too? I'm thinking like a mounted fighter-no question that a fighter with a heavy warhorse is a much more serious threat then most fighters without, so why not reward the gladiator who manages to take one down? In the upper levels of course, no 1 CR creature is going to make a difference, but down at the first rank I think it would be nice. My 2cp. I don't want to see horses become an "XP engine". Imagine two sneaky builds (who have no real use for a horse) agreeing to both bring in a horse and then shooting each other's horse before beginning the "real" fight, just so both of them can get more XP. On the other hand, making allies who suck XP and gold be worth XP and gold might be reasonable: for example, having a CR 8 gladiator with a Leadership or Handle Animal ally count as CR 9 for XP. This would not be unbalancing. It would, however, add a bit complexity. At any rate, since there's currently no way of getting an XP-and-gold-sucking ally until level 5 or 6, we have some time to come to a decision on this.
Dalton Onestone 01-14-05, 11:24 AM	I still hate the rule that says you have to take off from the arena for long periods of time if you craft scrolls. I just created a new wizard. Win or lose, he's going to have to take a week off to replace some of his scrolls. If he wins, and spends all his winnings, he may have to take two weeks off. And of course this is time during which I can not run an alternate second gladiator. By way of contrast, a fighter who crafts something with 900 gp winnings does not have to take a week off. If you want to make a rule that says the crafting limit for a week is 1000 gp or 500 gp plus 40 XP or any similar combination, fine. But to make crafting a lot faster for mundane crafters while not making it faster at all for magical crafters is, if not unfair, at least seriously fun-reducing.
T'Var 01-14-05, 11:31 AM	I just created a new wizard. Win or lose, he's going to have to take a week off to replace some of his scrolls. If he wins, and spends all his winnings, he may have to take two weeks off. And of course this is time during which I can not run an alternate second gladiator. well you can have 2 active gladiators for free in his new verison so that may lessen some of those woes
Caterane 01-14-05, 03:37 PM	I still hate the rule that says you have to take off from the arena for long periods of time if you craft scrolls. I just created a new wizard. Win or lose, he's going to have to take a week off to replace some of his scrolls. If he wins, and spends all his winnings, he may have to take two weeks off. And of course this is time during which I can not run an alternate second gladiator. By way of contrast, a fighter who crafts something with 900 gp winnings does not have to take a week off. If you want to make a rule that says the crafting limit for a week is 1000 gp or 500 gp plus 40 XP or any similar combination, fine. But to make crafting a lot faster for mundane crafters while not making it faster at all for magical crafters is, if not unfair, at least seriously fun-reducing. Uhmentarymster - who surely spent the most scrolls this week in his fight - just scribed one ...and bought the rest. It's not that expensive. If you definately must scribe more than one scroll, then sit out a week and let your other character fight, or moderate a fight and get a third one on the start (we can use pitlords anyway ;) and I'm sure you'll be a good one). The difference between mundane crafters and magical crafters is the amount of items you'll craft during your carreer. How many weapons will a weaponsmith craft during the year? He needs perhaps five at the most. Armorsmiths and Bowmakers even less. And a magic crafter can craft the same worth in gold in a free week (7000 gp) as a mundane crafter. Secondly, we had to speed up mundane crafting else it would've taken years to craft a mithral or adamantine armor and this is the whole point in taking ranks in craft armor.
Kaigan 01-14-05, 08:04 PM	Question: So after we either win or lose the fight, we edit our sheets to show the gold and exp change, do we get to buy more potions, or scrolls?
Ashenai 01-14-05, 08:07 PM	Question: So after we either win or lose the fight, we edit our sheets to show the gold and exp change, do we get to buy more potions, or scrolls? Well, of course. Feel free to spend your money. :)
Dalton Onestone 01-15-05, 10:29 AM	Uhmentarymster - who surely spent the most scrolls this week in his fight - just scribed one ...and bought the rest. It's not that expensive. If you definately must scribe more than one scroll, then sit out a week and let your other character fight, or moderate a fight and get a third one on the start (we can use pitlords anyway ;) and I'm sure you'll be a good one). The difference between mundane crafters and magical crafters is the amount of items you'll craft during your carreer. How many weapons will a weaponsmith craft during the year? He needs perhaps five at the most. Armorsmiths and Bowmakers even less. And a magic crafter can craft the same worth in gold in a free week (7000 gp) as a mundane crafter. Secondly, we had to speed up mundane crafting else it would've taken years to craft a mithral or adamantine armor and this is the whole point in taking ranks in craft armor. Well, thank you for your confidence in my pitlording! But I'm the guy who tried to use Mage Armor over a chain shirt one bout ago. And I've never DMed dice-based combat in my life. Still, if you gave me some straightforward bouts at first (no psionics!) I might be up to giving it a whirl ... As for the other point: Basically, there's no logical reason why somebody can't fight one day a week and craft several other days. The only reason I've seen so far (and please forgive me if I missed something) is along the lines of "Well, we made one illogical and non-core rule to benefit nonmagical casters, and now if we were logical about crafting rules otherwise they'd get too MUCH benefit." I have no objection to the 1000 gp rule change benefitting non-magical crafters. What I'm objecting to is that a wizard who fights one day in the arena has to spend five days a week neither fighting nor crafting. What's he doing the rest of the week? Drinking and wenching? Well, that's fun, but if he can keep it up around the clock he should retire from the arena and make a great living selling the custom magic he's created to do it. Fantasy Viagra! Magical hangover cures! I can see it now.
Ashenai 01-15-05, 05:49 PM	Ratings and Power As some of you have no doubt already noticed, the lines for your characters in the roster now look like this: Uhmentarymster the Old (Caterane) [Power: 1100 (1100); 1 won, 0 lost] So what does that "power 1100 (1100)" mean? Well, since in Living Gladius, you will be allowed to fight gladiators who are higher or lower in level than you are, the simple "win-loss" numbers we used to have aren't as good for showing success in the Arena anymore. After all, a gladiator could always rack up the wins by challenging lower levels, and vice versa, a bold character who enjoys challenging higher levels and loses often might actually be more successful than his win-loss record would indicate. It is for this reason we have come up with a ratings system. (If you don't like the ratings system, don't worry about it. It will have no in-game effect at all, and you can ignore it completely if you like. It's only there for people who are interested in it, and is good for nothing but bragging rights.) The way the ratings system works (short version): All characters have a "rating" (the number inside the parentheses). Every character starts with a rating of 1000, and this number will go up if you win a fight, and will go down if you lose. If you win against an opponent who's more powerful (higher level) or more successful (higher rating) than you, your rating will get a bigger boost if you win; similarly if you win against an opponent who is lower level or less successful (lower rating) than you, your rating will get a smaller boost. And vice versa; if you lose against a higher-power or more successful opponent, you lose fewer rating points than if you lose against a lower-power or less successful one. The power level (the number before the parentheses) is simply a measure of how powerful your character is. For ECL 3 characters, the power level is always equal to the rating, but for higher-level characters, their rating will be multiplied by a number to get the power rating. This shows that an "average" ECL 3 character (rating 1000, power level 1000) is less powerful than an "average" ECL 4 character (rating 1000, power level 1400). However, a very successful ECL 3 character (rating 1300, power level 1300) might be considered more powerful than a weaker ECL 4 character (rating 800, power level 1120). Ratings will be updated after every fight. The way the ratings system works (long version): If you hate math, stop reading now. You have been warned. You do not need to understand the math behind ratings; the short explanation above is more than enough to know. If you're interested in the math behind the scenes, however, then read on. :) All characters start with a rating of 1000. A character's power score is calculated by multiplying their rating with a number. This number is... well, it's (sqrt(2))^(ECL-3). Since this is the Core Coliseum and not Algebra class, here's a table with all the multipliers: ECL multiplier 3 1 4 1.4 5 2 6 2.8 7 4 8 5.7 9 8 10 11.3 11 16 12 22.6 13 32 14 45.3 15 64 16 90.5 17 128 18 181 19 256 20 362 While the average rating score will always be 1000, regardless of level, the average power score will depend on ECL. For example, the average power score for ECL 8 characters will be 5.7 * 1000 = 5700. When two characters fight, the winner's rating will go up, and the loser's will go down. The way this works is fairly simple; you divide the loser's power score with the winner's power score, then multiply by 100. The result is added to the winner's ratings, and deducted from the loser's. An example (the simplest case): Two fresh ECL 3 characters (both with rating 1000, power 1000) fight each other. The winner gets 1000/1000 * 100 = 100 ratings points, while the loser loses the same amount. The winner will now have 1100 ratings points (and 1100 power), while the loser will have 900 ratings points (and 900 power). Let's look at another, more complex example. A newbie ECL 3 character (rating 1000, power 1000) decides to challenge an ECL 4 character who's a bit below-average (rating 930, power 1302). As the power difference shows, this is an unfair fight; even though the ECL 4 character is slightly below average, he's still considered a good deal more powerful than the ECL 3 guy. But an upset happens, the ECL 3 guy wins. Dividing the loser's power score by the winner's we get 1.302; multiplied by 100 and rounded down, that's 130. The ECL 3 guy gets 130 ratings points for this spectacular victory, and the ECL 4 guy loses the same amount. The end result: an ECL 3 guy with a rating of 1130 (power 1130), and an ECL 4 guy with a rating of 800 (power 1120). The ECL 3 guy is now considered well above average (he defeated an ECL 4 opponent, after all), while the ECL 4 character now has an even worse rating (since he got beaten by a character who was supposedly inferior). The ECL 3 guy is now actually considered to be slightly more powerful than the ECL 4 one (his power rating is slightly higher). I hope this was somewhat understandable. Please feel free to ask questions either on the board, by PM, or through Yahoo Chat (my handle is unallocated_memory).
Snommelp 01-15-05, 06:16 PM	It's not complicated enough yet, Ash. I want to be telling the truth when I tell my friends that DnD involves a basic understanding of Calculus (which I have said on occasion).
Ashenai 01-15-05, 07:40 PM	Heh... well, believe it or not, I could make it more complicated. This system still has a few minor imperfections and miscalibrations. They're small and unimportant, though, and I wouldn't like to be lynched. ;)
Dalton Onestone 01-18-05, 01:36 AM	As the rules now stand, one can gain 2700 XP (almost enough to level up) via 3 wins or 9 losses. Either way, one gets the same amount of gold in purses (2700 gp). Is it intentional that winning bouts creates no character advantage vs. losing bouts, other than the speed of progression? There's an obvious disadvantage to this effect, namely that the optimal strategy for building a power gladiator at high levels is to tank all one's matches by not using even basic expendable items at low levels. What is the advantage, if any, that outweighs this disadvantage?
Ashenai 01-18-05, 09:26 PM	As the rules now stand, one can gain 2700 XP (almost enough to level up) via 3 wins or 9 losses. Either way, one gets the same amount of gold in purses (2700 gp). Is it intentional that winning bouts creates no character advantage vs. losing bouts, other than the speed of progression? Yes. There's an obvious disadvantage to this effect, namely that the optimal strategy for building a power gladiator at high levels is to tank all one's matches by not using even basic expendable items at low levels. What is the advantage, if any, that outweighs this disadvantage? The very fact that advancement is fairly slow will discourage this tactic, we believe. We believe most people want to win a match quite badly, whether it is to have their characters advance, to improve their ratings or win/loss record, or for whatever reason, and they're willing to expend a reasonable (or sometimes even unreasonable) amount of stuff to make that happen. For this reason (and because the money rewards grow much faster than the XP rewards, making "saving up" at ECL 3 fairly irrelevant by level 12+), we don't believe high level "power gladiators" will be a problem. I've devised some contingency plans for this event though, just in case we're wrong. To answer your question: the advantage that outweighs the disadvantage is that "legitimately" losing characters (sub-optimal builds, or builds which don't become powerful until the high levels, or players who aren't as experienced in writing tactics, or just plain unlucky characters) do not become locked into a vicious cycle of defeat. If a losing character would only get, say, 200 gp to go with their 300 xp, then the probability of them losing again goes up with each loss. This is known as a vicious cycle, or positive feedback, and it's a very bad idea when trying to create a balanced system.
Caterane 01-19-05, 10:41 AM	And one thing I want to add: it is the very same system as in the old arena. Losers, no matter how many bumps they had, possessed the same money as those with clean records.
Dalton Onestone 01-19-05, 10:47 AM	Thanks for the explanations!
Dalton Onestone 01-21-05, 05:13 AM	OK. I confirmed my recollection that, in the DMG, the stated CL for a Wondrous Item or other magic item is NOT a prerequisite for crafting it. This can be seen by looking at the beginning of the magic items section, where they define Caster Level and then, as a separate bullet point, define Prerequisites. It is confirmed by the specific example of Ioun Stones. I also have not detected any changes to this rule in the Errata. Now that I know this, I ask -- why is it nonetheless a rule for Living Gladius, how long has it been a rule, and has anybody gotten around to actually putting the rule in the FAQ? Thanks!
Pittbull 01-21-05, 05:32 AM	@Dalton: Ash has opened this thread some months ago: Just read (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=351279) . :)
Dalton Onestone 01-21-05, 06:04 AM	Thanks. That's how I remembered -- Ash proposed violating the RAW as a future change. So imagine my surprise when I find out the rule change has already happened, despite not being in the FAQ. Oh well. Oddities like that happen. I just wish I'd known before the last minute; I made a typo in my haste to change the character that may cost him the bout. (Multiple changes in honor of having changed his feat to Rapid Shot, but then not actually changing it.)
LLMadCow 01-21-05, 11:08 AM	I have a serious issue with the spell casters only being allowed to craft one scroll in between weeks of play. I will quote sources and then give a reason. SCRIBE SCROLL [ITEM CREATION] Prerequisite: Caster level 1st. Benefit: You can create a scroll of any spell that you know. Scribing a scroll takes one day for each 1,000 gp in its base price. The base price of a scroll is its spell level x its caster level x 25 gp. To scribe a scroll, you must spend 1/25 of this base price in XP and use up raw materials costing one-half of this base price. Any scroll that stores a spell with a costly material component or an XP cost also carries a commensurate cost. In addition to the costs derived from the base price, you must expend the material component or pay the XP when scribing the scroll. SCROLLS A scroll is a spell (or collection of spells) that has been stored in written form. A spell on a scroll can be used only once. The writing vanishes from the scroll when the spell is activated. Using a scroll is basically like casting a spell. Okay, now that we have this information established as part of the rules, I will point out two things: First - a scroll takes 1 day per 1,000gp but not necessarily 1 day for 25gp; Secondly - a scroll can be a collection of spells. So, as the rules currently stand, any 3rd level wizard with 400gp to burn could make a scroll that contains 3 level 1 spells, 2 Level 2 spells and is about 5' long costing 375gp. This would be casting ALL of his non-cantrip spells and putting them to one scroll. This is allowed, by the Arena Rules and the SRD. Is it such a stretch to allow Scribers to cast up to their alloted spells per day (ALL OF THEM) into scrolls, or at least allow them to craft scrolls equal to 1/3 of the spell pool rounded up? So, in the case of the Wizard who has 4, 4, 2 - he has 8/3 or 3 levels to scribe? 3 first levels spells or 1 first and 1 second? Please give it some consideration.
Dalton Onestone 01-21-05, 01:16 PM	I strongly agree with you about most of the premises of your post. I think there's one rules glitch to one small part, however -- all the spells on a single scroll (which can hold up to six spells) have to have the same CL, if I recall correctly.
Jindl 02-09-05, 11:14 AM	Okay, I have a question about using Handle Animal to teach tricks/purposes under LG rules: My character (JotHF) just reached 4th level and wants to upgrade from his starting animal companion (a crocodile) to a dire bat. However, he must train the dire bat so that it knows the tricks: Attack, Attack any creature, and Defend. Without these tricks, the animal companion is useless to him. As an animal companion, the dire bat gets one bonus trick (which we'll assume is the Attack any creature trick). So my character only has to teach 2 tricks: Attack and Defend. Both of these tricks are DC 20 to teach, and since my character has a +10 Handle Animal, he is capable of making this DC. According to the Handle Animal skill, it takes 1 week to train 1 trick. This would mean that to teach these tricks to my animal companion, it will take 2 weeks. This seems like a long time to me. Especially since my character is only teaching 2 tricks, and the animal is capable of learning 6. Indeed, if the animal was to be used as a mount, my character would have to teach it the combat riding purpose (6 tricks) which takes 6 weeks. This would apply to ANY new animal ally, especially mounts. For example: A paladin wants to get a pegasus special mount. It doesn't come already trained, so he has to either spend 6 weeks training it himself, or pay a professional trainer 1000 gp to train it, which also takes 6 weeks. 6 weeks of counting as an active gladiator but doing nothing but training seems unfair to me. Looking more closely at the Handle Animal skill, it says that you must only spend 3 hours per day working with the animal. In a campaign, you could probably work those 3 hours in while adventuring. In LG, I think you should be able to work those 3 hours in during a week that you are fighting. This is different than my opinion on crafting items, because that task takes 8 hours a day. But since training an animal only takes 3 hours per day, I don't think it should prevent the character from other activities. What do you guys think about this issue?
T'Var 02-09-05, 11:35 AM	Okay, I have a question about using Handle Animal to teach tricks/purposes under LG rules: My character (JotHF) just reached 4th level and wants to upgrade from his starting animal companion (a crocodile) to a dire bat. However, he must train the dire bat so that it knows the tricks: Attack, Attack any creature, and Defend. Without these tricks, the animal companion is useless to him. As an animal companion, the dire bat gets one bonus trick (which we'll assume is the Attack any creature trick). So my character only has to teach 2 tricks: Attack and Defend. Both of these tricks are DC 20 to teach, and since my character has a +10 Handle Animal, he is capable of making this DC. According to the Handle Animal skill, it takes 1 week to train 1 trick. This would mean that to teach these tricks to my animal companion, it will take 2 weeks. This seems like a long time to me. Especially since my character is only teaching 2 tricks, and the animal is capable of learning 6. Indeed, if the animal was to be used as a mount, my character would have to teach it the combat riding purpose (6 tricks) which takes 6 weeks. This would apply to ANY new animal ally, especially mounts. For example: A paladin wants to get a pegasus special mount. It doesn't come already trained, so he has to either spend 6 weeks training it himself, or pay a professional trainer 1000 gp to train it, which also takes 6 weeks. 6 weeks of counting as an active gladiator but doing nothing but training seems unfair to me. Looking more closely at the Handle Animal skill, it says that you must only spend 3 hours per day working with the animal. In a campaign, you could probably work those 3 hours in while adventuring. In LG, I think you should be able to work those 3 hours in during a week that you are fighting. This is different than my opinion on crafting items, because that task takes 8 hours a day. But since training an animal only takes 3 hours per day, I don't think it should prevent the character from other activities. What do you guys think about this issue? I was about to ask the same question for Flower. Im in agreement with Jindl in this matter
Dalton Onestone 02-09-05, 12:20 PM	I think that the whole concept of being not allowed to fight if you do much else that week is dubious.
T'Var 02-11-05, 10:08 AM	Okay, I have a question about using Handle Animal to teach tricks/purposes under LG rules: My character (JotHF) just reached 4th level and wants to upgrade from his starting animal companion (a crocodile) to a dire bat. However, he must train the dire bat so that it knows the tricks: Attack, Attack any creature, and Defend. Without these tricks, the animal companion is useless to him. As an animal companion, the dire bat gets one bonus trick (which we'll assume is the Attack any creature trick). So my character only has to teach 2 tricks: Attack and Defend. Both of these tricks are DC 20 to teach, and since my character has a +10 Handle Animal, he is capable of making this DC. According to the Handle Animal skill, it takes 1 week to train 1 trick. This would mean that to teach these tricks to my animal companion, it will take 2 weeks. This seems like a long time to me. Especially since my character is only teaching 2 tricks, and the animal is capable of learning 6. Indeed, if the animal was to be used as a mount, my character would have to teach it the combat riding purpose (6 tricks) which takes 6 weeks. This would apply to ANY new animal ally, especially mounts. For example: A paladin wants to get a pegasus special mount. It doesn't come already trained, so he has to either spend 6 weeks training it himself, or pay a professional trainer 1000 gp to train it, which also takes 6 weeks. 6 weeks of counting as an active gladiator but doing nothing but training seems unfair to me. Looking more closely at the Handle Animal skill, it says that you must only spend 3 hours per day working with the animal. In a campaign, you could probably work those 3 hours in while adventuring. In LG, I think you should be able to work those 3 hours in during a week that you are fighting. This is different than my opinion on crafting items, because that task takes 8 hours a day. But since training an animal only takes 3 hours per day, I don't think it should prevent the character from other activities. What do you guys think about this issue? is there going to be an answer on this issue from elders or gms?
spasheridan 02-17-05, 02:46 AM	It's not complicated enough yet, Ash. I want to be telling the truth when I tell my friends that DnD involves a basic understanding of Calculus (which I have said on occasion). Who said that DnD is the hobby of people who enjoy both "imaginary theatrical drama and double ledger accounting"? I mean, honestly, to love DnD you need to get down with your bad fiction self AND that number crunching self... a very whole brain kind of experience. @Jindil & Dalton- I'm a bit torn on the crafting / training issue. What's the ruling on crafting 6 days out of a week and fighting the 7th? If you can train for the full week then it's the same as crafting the whole week. Of course crafting a +1 flaming longsword is a bit better then training Sparky the Wonder Llama how to play fetch, but it is free. I believe the obvious out for this is to allow the PC to hire an NPC trainer to do your training for you. For a low low fee of only X gp a day you can have Ace Ventura- Pet Detective, Psychic, and Animal Trainer to bend your new pet to your will.
Pitlords 02-17-05, 05:22 AM	@Jindl: Sorry for not responding earlier but I don't want to decide that without Ashenai who is absent for some days (he just wrote me a mail). We're basically facing three options: We leave it as it is. That means you need 1 week for 1 trick and you are active during that week, including the credit cost. Problem: seems unfair because you need only 3 hours a day. Training is not considered being active. You still need 1 week for 1 trick but you may also do other things during that time. That however might be problematic if the character is on a Quest or in a Campaign even, like WLD. We would also lose an additional way to spend your credits, and we all know that credits are not very worthwhile atm. Basically, the more ways to spend your credits, the better it is. It would also be a special rule just for training. We make it something in between. I am sure we could come up with an authentic and satisfying solution but this is still my least favorite option because it creates an extra rule, and the main goal of Living Gladius is to have as few rules as possible or put as many things as possible under one rule, respectively I can see where you're coming from Jindl, but the other options might not be better. In any case, let's wait until Ash is back. Until then, Option 1 stays in effect.
Jindl 02-22-05, 10:51 AM	I have another question: Since LG follows real time on a week by week basis, what do we do when a fight is extended beyond 1 week. Just recently the Elder vs Moon-Moon went 2 weeks to complete. It doesn't seem fair that these 2 pc's just lose a week of time. Perhaps we should say that if your fight goes longer than 1 week, each pc involved gets a free week that they can use later for crafting, quests, training animals, etc. That should keep all pc's on the same time frame (and give equal opportunities to all characters that were created at the same time). What do others think about this?
Huan 02-22-05, 10:55 AM	Sounds like a good idea. It only makes sense that in the time they were not fighting, they were minding their own business with their own downtime or whatevernot.
Pittbull 02-22-05, 11:08 AM	I like it too! :) But only if the pitlord delayed the fight, not the player.
Jindl 02-22-05, 11:11 AM	Something else I was thinking about this: When a fight is extended, the participating pc's don't count as active. If we gave those pc's a free week later, it would be like giving the player a free credit because they were never considered active for that week. So to refine my proposal, I think we give the player the choice: 1. Have your PC be considered inactive for the week that the fight continues -OR- 2. Have your PC be considered active for the week that the fight continues, and gain a free week later to craft/train animals/quest/etc. That way it not only restores the timeline, but it restores the proper cost of credits for activities.
Pittbull 02-22-05, 11:28 AM	1. Have your PC be considered inactive for the week that the fight continues I think, this solution is easier to handle for our Pitlord. But I think it's more important, to achieve less delays and enhance discipline.
Caterane 02-23-05, 06:02 AM	Something else I was thinking about this: When a fight is extended, the participating pc's don't count as active. If we gave those pc's a free week later, it would be like giving the player a free credit because they were never considered active for that week. So to refine my proposal, I think we give the player the choice: 1. Have your PC be considered inactive for the week that the fight continues -OR- 2. Have your PC be considered active for the week that the fight continues, and gain a free week later to craft/train animals/quest/etc. That way it not only restores the timeline, but it restores the proper cost of credits for activities. Your suggestions are fair to the gladiators who are forced to sit out for a week because of the pitlord's failure to post the fight on time. But you never have been considered active if your fight was extended so suggestion 1 is already in effect. Suggestion 2 is difficult to track. As it is now, you need to link the Pairings Post (the one on the fights thread of course) if you craft so that you can later prove that you sat out a week. It is more difficult to track fights that are extended into the next week. And I concur with Pittbull.
Dalton Onestone 02-23-05, 01:55 PM	Being inactive saves a credit if you're accumulating and spending credits. If you don't, it's just a loss. A partial fix would be to give a compensatory credit to people whose gladiators are inactive through no fault of their own.
spasheridan 02-23-05, 02:01 PM	Suggestion 2 is difficult to track. As it is now, you need to link the Pairings Post (the one on the fights thread of course) if you craft so that you can later prove that you sat out a week. It is more difficult to track fights that are extended into the next week. Simply have the pitlord post a note at the top or bottom of the fight - Extended 1 week, gladiators gain 1 time credit. Gladiators note this in the line with the link to the fight. Done and done.
Caterane 03-02-05, 04:34 AM	I have thought long now about this and I finally came to a conclussion. I concur that sitting out 6 weeks is no fun and therefore characters shouldn't be forced to sit out for a week to teach one trick. Most of my decision is based on the fact that it takes only 3 hours which may very well be done in a campaign. However, the rules also clearly say that it takes a week to train and this should stay in effect. From now on you are not considered active for teaching 1 trick to your animal. So how to track this? The character writes into the headline which trick he teaches to which animal, next to "Ready for" (if he wants to fight aswell). I will add a new list to the Pairings Post called "Special Actions" where this action, the training, will be noted. The player must then link this Pairings Post to his sheet (the Pairings Post on the Fights thread of course since the other post changes every week). That shows our auditors that you correctly spent 1 week to teach 1 trick. It won't affect the 'active' status of your character.
Dalton Onestone 03-02-05, 04:40 AM	I think that procedure has to be slightly modified; not EVERYTHING can fit into the note title
Caterane 03-02-05, 04:49 AM	Ignamboombumps the Longnamed who's hobbies are fishing, crafting and collecting stams Effective Encounter Level 17 (please check the DMG if you do not know what this means or write a PM to one of the Elders or GMs) Ready for 9/9 (which means 9th September 2005 after christ came down to earth) Teaching trick Guard trick Familiar Curt who I acquired by.... Dalton, you CAN make it complicated, agreed. If you can't write "Ready for 9/9; chllgs Keth; teach 'guard' to Nox" then write it right at the top of your sheet.
Dalton Onestone 03-02-05, 04:55 AM	*I* make things complicated? *I* do? Who set up the rules here in the first place? Who created the character that I based one on and designed the other one to defeat?