Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Battousai2005 06-01-04, 12:51 AM	This is another thread that is entirely for fun. This is for rules in the game that don't make sense! This is for things that one might find odd or simply don't make sense in real life. Rules: 1) Evidence: If you are doing something that is not common sense, back it up. 2) No insulting others: Usual rule for me. I don't always get everything, so just go with it and explain
Battousai2005 06-01-04, 12:54 AM	1) Crossbow: A crossbow can fire at 80-120 feet in the game. This is off scale. A crossbow wasn't very accurate at distances above 30 feet for the most part. They packed a punch, though. Favored weapons of assassins for the most part. 2) Quarterstaff: A quarterstaff should have the option of being a reach weapon. 3) Other Poelarms: Most polearms could be viable double ended weapons. Notably the glaive. Any others?
LLMadCow 06-01-04, 01:12 AM	D&D - 1/2 Celestial Template - Take 1 human and 1 angel, get a medium size 1/2 Angel. The Holy Bible - Take 1 human and 1 angel, get a GIANT. The book of genesis discusses the offspring of angels and humans.
Sindorin 06-01-04, 07:10 AM	well, I have always thought that interaction through the rounds of a fight has been way off. First of all, YOU try moving thirty feet AND THEN ATTACKING in a mere SIX SECONDS. Also, due to initiative, the turn system makes a round of six seconds seem extremely long, a lot is happening, because first one character runs up and attacks, then the enemy retreats and heals... all in six seconds? They kind of throw the concept of Time, the fourth dimension, out the window. Yay for running at four times your speed! 120 ft in like six seconds! There are some contingencies that I have worked on remedying for future DMing. They mainly affect this time concept - basically what would happen would be that the round is extended to a time equal to two seconds per character or npc involved, and then speed is proportioned accordingly... but I haven't been able to try this out much, mainly because no one here wants to game these days. I'll probably get a chance to try it out though because my bro and his friend are off school now. but anyway, yeah I've always wondered how things are able to happen so quickly in D&D. Though I probably will not ever be able to find a true solution to it, it still doesn't seem completely correct. I do think that they made the d&d combat system according to a football field with the yard system... a character with the Run feat is able to run a 40 yard sprint similar to a really good football player. I guess some of the combatants could move 10 yards and attack, but not everyone in the battle would be able to do this. That's where Initiative would be EXTREMELY IMPORTANT - I think Initiative should be rerolled every round, w/ slight penalties to characters that went first in the previous round. This would make a more realistic situation because characters with insane Init mods could go first often and get full turns but at the same time even they don't get their full turns. I know it would gyp lots of npc's and some character builds, but even then some builds are not realistically effective... Oh well, in D&D we do play in a fantasy world, so not everything has to be realistic.
Hatzinger 06-01-04, 11:34 AM	Originally posted by Sindorin I think Initiative should be rerolled every round, We actually did that in our AD&D group. It was quite fun fighting this way, but the fights took the whole nights.
Sindorin 06-01-04, 05:55 PM	rerolling init every round would be hilarious for this one build that I wanted to try, i was going to try a fighter/swashbuckler or ranger/duelist - he gets a bonus to init, plus improved init, plus i was going to get his dex way over twenty, so his init mod was going to be somewhere around +12 (at least +6 dex mod, +2 class, +4 improved init)... Even in normal battle he would have been crazy, Falchion or rapier with improved crit, and weapon finesse with the rapier... strength would only be important at lower levels... He would have been interesting and/or broken. I wonder if this ranting is more suited for the Munchkin thread... But yeah, rerolling initiative every round w/ penalties for lower rollers would make that build be a little unfair, so I understand why it is how it is. It would be funny also if an init roll doubled another init roll to give the double roll two turns before the lower roll ever got to act - this appears at least in Final Fantasy Tactics, but that is a different system. I just think it's a fun thing to poke around with because I like having characters with high init mods.
Magagumo 06-01-04, 07:34 PM	Hmm, I run it as 6 seconds per each individuals turn. Not that it makes a huge difference in my games (asides from two different groups fighting simultaenously, so one can help the other if they finish up). The move speeds are perhaps the most ridiculous with regards to time.
Captain Mutilate 06-01-04, 08:22 PM	Why don't epic characters get theme songs? It should come with level 21. Stop laughing, I'm serious. :P
kattattack22 06-01-04, 10:09 PM	Well, they could but in game you would have to hire personal ministrels (see Sir Robin in Monty Python's Holy Grail for how well that worked) or use wish and anyone that has seen Family Guy knows how annoying a theme song can get after awhile. Also, there is the out of game trouble of finding a song that fits. Another possibility is to compose just the right theme song and that right there is a great deal of work. If you REALLY like your character that much, more power to you.
Battousai2005 06-01-04, 11:21 PM	Other rules-that-should-exist: 1) Chain of any kind should have penalties to AC vs. Piercing weapons. Its just logic. There is evidence of this. Roman legions wore chin mail and were often killed by bows, spears, and swords thrusts, although they were able to survive slashes. 2) Lances: Except on rare occasions, lances shattered when hitting an opponent. 3) Weapon rate of attack: Ok, tell me honestly. How many of you think that a greatsword can be swung with the same ability, focus, and rate as a rapier? Aside from crossbows, no one seemed to take into account just how unweildly some weapons are. When I see a person swinging a greatsword like a dagger, then I'll think about this one.
kattattack22 06-02-04, 12:27 AM	Originally posted by Battousai2005 Other rules-that-should-exist: 1) Chain of any kind should have penalties to AC vs. Piercing weapons. Its just logic. There is evidence of this. Roman legions wore chin mail and were often killed by bows, spears, and swords thrusts, although they were able to survive slashes. 2) Lances: Except on rare occasions, lances shattered when hitting an opponent. 3) Weapon rate of attack: Ok, tell me honestly. How many of you think that a greatsword can be swung with the same ability, focus, and rate as a rapier? Aside from crossbows, no one seemed to take into account just how unweildly some weapons are. When I see a person swinging a greatsword like a dagger, then I'll think about this one. 1) agree, but in a different way. Armor should give DR not total defense like AC. 2) Wooden lances, o yeah. Metal ones used in war, nope. 3) agree. Otherwise there would be no point to fighting Florentine.
Magagumo 06-02-04, 09:28 AM	1. I can help with this one: Take the armor's total AC bonus and divide it by 2, rounding down. Then, subtract this resulting number from the armor's bonus. The larger number is the armor's resulting armor bonus, while the second number is the damage reduction it now provides. Enhancement bonuses add directly to AC< not DR. To demonstrate: Chain Shirt (+4 AC)= 4/2=2 --> +2 AC, DR: 2/- Breastplate (+5 AC)= 5/2= 2.5=2 --> +3 AC, DR: 2/- Full Plate (+8 AC)= 8/2=4 ---> +4 AC, DR: 4/- +5 Full Plate (+13 AC)= 8/2= 4 --> +9 AC, DR: 4/- This Damage reduction does stack with barbarian or adamantine (though Barbarian and Adamantine do not). In the end, smart Power Attack usage means that no real difference is made (and 2-handed weapons have a better chance to deal damage), but ranged atatcks and most monsters (who don't use PA) will demonstrate a decrease in damage. They might be more likely to hit you though, so be careful. Also, Deflection, Shield, etc do not incur DR, only armor and natural armor. For natural armor, divide the creature's nat AC by 5, repeating the same process as above. If the DR is different from the creature's natural DR, keep them separate. If they are the same, they stack: Dire Wolf: (+3 nat)= 3/5=.6=0 --> +3 AC/ DR: 0/- Glabrezu: (+19 natural)= 19/5=3.8=3 --> +16 AC/ DR: 10/good or 3/- Elder Earth Elemental: (+15 natural)= 15/3=3 --> +12 AC, DR: 13/- Great Gold Wyrm: (+40 natural)= 40/5=8 --> +32 AC/ DR: 20/magic or 8/- Hope this proves fun, I might use it myself in some future game. (Above idea attributed, rightfully, to WoTC from Unearthed Arcana) 3. Maybe a dagger attack is a series of dagger strikes, while a greatsword attack is one swing? ;) *shrug* yea, what can ya do?
Captain Mutilate 06-02-04, 03:53 PM	Originally posted by kattattack22 1) agree, but in a different way. Armor should give DR not total defense like AC. No way! Armor was meant to deflect or soften blows, and there are such things as dodging and missing... where the dex comes in. Swords can clang off of armor, and even on a hit it is generally assumed (if you have imagination) that the armor softened the blow some or he hit a weak spot. You're sort of missing the whole point of wearing armor, dude. I suggest you build a time machine and head to medieval england or something to see the point of armor... :P
Myrridin 06-02-04, 03:57 PM	Originally posted by Captain Mutilate No way! Armor was meant to deflect or soften blows, and there are such things as dodging and missing... where the dex comes in. Swords can clang off of armor, and even on a hit it is generally assumed (if you have imagination) that the armor softened the blow some or he hit a weak spot. You're sort of missing the whole point of wearing armor, dude. I suggest you build a time machine and head to medieval england or something to see the point of armor... :P So wouldn't the armor softening a blow be Damage Resistance? If that same blow had hit you without armor, you'd be cut and take the damage. But the blow did hit you, and fortunately you were wearing armor. The armor absorbed the impact, and you walk away with a little bruise, but no real damage. Damage Resistance, right there. No, he's not actually missing the point of wearing armor. It was worn to lessen the damage taken from a hit. DR, by defintion is a way to lessen the damage taken from a hit. Looks like a pretty straight forward arguement to me. Mag: I definetly agree with you.
Arstimis 06-02-04, 08:25 PM	Originally posted by Myrridin So wouldn't the armor softening a blow be Damage Resistance? If that same blow had hit you without armor, you'd be cut and take the damage. But the blow did hit you, and fortunately you were wearing armor. The armor absorbed the impact, and you walk away with a little bruise, but no real damage. Damage Resistance, right there. No, he's not actually missing the point of wearing armor. It was worn to lessen the damage taken from a hit. DR, by defintion is a way to lessen the damage taken from a hit. Looks like a pretty straight forward arguement to me. Mag: I definetly agree with you. The point in armor was to take all damage away if a blow hit you, but not hard enough or in the right spot. Correct, by definition DR is what armor did, but mechanics wise, it is not Any blows that were to clang off the armor were blocked by the armor, causing no damage to the person wearing the armor. DR still allows for damage to be taken. If two people were to fight with daggers, are you saying a person with full-plate could essentially negate any damage taken from the dagger. Thats a load full plate has a high ac bonus because it is harder to find a spot in the armor that a dagger can get through and hit. Cap'n Mutilate: I definately agree with you
kattattack22 06-02-04, 09:02 PM	Gah! It does both. I was thinking of what Mag mentioned. Yes swords, arrows whatever would slide off but blows could still get through but not be as bad since the armore would slow it. Anyway, it seems everyone has discussed what exactly armor does in real life. I should specify, armor should give DR and some AC bonus, but not just AC bonus as it stands in unmodified 3.5.
Arstimis 06-02-04, 09:10 PM	Originally posted by kattattack22 Gah! It does both. I was thinking of what Mag mentioned. Yes swords, arrows whatever would slide off but blows could still get through but not be as bad since the armore would slow it. Anyway, it seems everyone has discussed what exactly armor does in real life. I should specify, armor should give DR and some AC bonus, but not just AC bonus as it stands in unmodified 3.5. Im sure you have seen midevil movies, and although they are not real life, they are as close as a visual image as we have, so.. Im sure you have noticed that whenever a blow does get through (pierce) the armor, that person is dead. There is no damage reduction, it was a critical hit right through the armor it was so powerful
Magagumo 06-02-04, 09:21 PM	Meh, that's also a critical hit though ;) When a man is heavily armored, you must strike accurately to hurt him wiith a dagger. Of course, provided you have 12+ Str, there's always a chance that even a dagger hit will deal damage. Like I said, the DR/AC is just another fun option, but I believe it is quite far from Core ;)
kattattack22 06-02-04, 09:21 PM	Wait? Are you citing movies as evidence? Ok, I am swimming too deep here. Obviously people here are either more knowledgable or think they are more knowledgable than me. Forget that I said anything.
Arstimis 06-02-04, 09:25 PM	Originally posted by kattattack22 Wait? Are you citing movies as evidence? Ok, I am swimming too deep here. Obviously people here are either more knowledgable or think they are more knowledgable than me. Forget that I said anything. Yes i was, but cause that is the only knowledge I have. I do not doubt that you have more knowledge about the subject than I, as i have never studied or looked into it. So, ya, forget i said anything
Battousai2005 06-02-04, 09:26 PM	Wait? Are you citing movies as evidence? Ok, I am swimming too deep here. Obviously people here are either more knowledgable or think they are more knowledgable than me. Forget that I said anything. Well, its just another point of view. If you've ever read Unearthed Arcana, a book filled with optional rules, you would see a section on the topic of armor and damage reduction. While I'm on the subject of Armor and Armor class, you might want to consider this. Characters become more knowledgeable, faster, stronger, and better and quicker at attacking. Why is it that they don't get any better at dodging blows directed at them? Another varient rule was to have AC bonus based on character class.
kattattack22 06-02-04, 09:31 PM	Originally posted by Battousai2005 Well, its just another point of view. If you've ever read Unearthed Arcana, a book filled with optional rules, you would see a section on the topic of armor and damage reduction. While I'm on the subject of Armor and Armor class, you might want to consider this. Characters become more knowledgeable, faster, stronger, and better and quicker at attacking. Why is it that they don't get any better at dodging blows directed at them? Another varient rule was to have AC bonus based on character class. Just depends I could see a swashbuckler or a martiall art fighter taking that to the extreme but I think the bonuses they had like the Wheel of Time RPG might advance a little too quickly sometimes.
Magagumo 06-02-04, 10:07 PM	Considering a player (15th lvl) who is a 3rd fighter, 3rd swashbuckler, 7th duelist, half-fey human htis 42 on a regualr basis (and 50 when avoding AoO from moving through threatened squares)... I don't need any more armor boosters here ;) I get occassionally stuck on trying to hit his AC, but then everything would have no problem (5or lower to miss) on the rest fo the party :-P It's like trying to to make a caster group make Will saves... *shakes fist at Snark*
kattattack22 06-02-04, 10:14 PM	@ Mag - throw at that one a wizard with high dex and use ranged touch spells and give the wizard quicken spell feat for quickened true strikes. Just to put the fear of death into the player. Of course there is also grapplers and area effect spells or even a simple Hold Person.
Magagumo 06-03-04, 12:08 AM	Duelists have great Rex (as do Swash), and this boy si Half-fey- Enchantment spell immunity. At least he isn't feytouched anymore (broken race, we changed it in the end to Compulsion immunity, because it orignally warded off all mind-affecting spells and effects, including fear and the like! Made him never need a Will save except for Bestow Curse, Illusions, and Hexblades ;))
Battousai2005 06-03-04, 07:46 PM	Originally posted by Magagumo Duelists have great Rex (as do Swash), and this boy si Half-fey- Enchantment spell immunity. At least he isn't feytouched anymore (broken race, we changed it in the end to Compulsion immunity, because it orignally warded off all mind-affecting spells and effects, including fear and the like! Made him never need a Will save except for Bestow Curse, Illusions, and Hexblades ;)) Thats another thing. Why is there no reference for other cross-breeds between powerful creatures? Half vampire. Half Fey. Those could be fun.
Sindorin 06-03-04, 09:28 PM	wait a tic, i thought duelist and swashbuckler were the same thing, simply called different names between the dungeonmaster's guide/SRD and the Complete Warrior... I'm confused now.
kattattack22 06-03-04, 11:33 PM	Duelist - 10 level Prestige Class listed in 3.0 Sword and Fist, and in 3.5 DMG (same thing in SRD). Swashbuckler - New basic class with 20 levels listed in Complete Warrior (some abilities are same as Duelist abilities but enough of a difference so they don't completely overlap even though they share the same basic concept).
Boldrift-Mattock 06-04-04, 01:41 PM	I think some of the people here that are discussing the DR and AC of armor should try out GERPS I think you would like it.
ateve 06-04-04, 06:09 PM	To add my thoughts on the AC/DR arguement, while I think armour should be giving both AC bonus and DR, I also believe that any critical hits should bypass the DR. I don't remember offhand if they say this in Unearthed Arcana, but it makes it just that much more beleivable. If someone wielding a dagger is fighting someone wearing full-plate, they would need to place the hit in just the right place to do any damage, someplace where the armor wouldn't protect: ie a critical hit. Therefore things with better crit ranges (swords and crossbows) would be more effective against heavy armor than weapons with small crit ranges (axes, hammers and bows). Though if these do manage to make it through they are devistating. Just my two coppers, Ateve, the Mighty Mouse
Magagumo 06-04-04, 08:31 PM	Swashbuckler is the easiest way to qualify for Duelist now. Corewise, you ahve to combo fighter and rogue (or such) and you don't get it as fast as the Base Attack could suggest. Now, with swashbuckler, you ahve the req'd skills and the base attack.
paladin165 06-25-04, 10:58 PM	IMO blunt weapons, especially warhammers, shouldnt be nearly as affected by armor. They rely on pure force to cause damage, not punctures or cuts. Think about hitting someone in chain mail with a hammer and hitting someone with just regular clothes on with a hammer. I dont see much difference. The only thing that really stops blunt trauma is a very strong peice of plate to spread out the force, and/or a lot of padding to absorb some of it. Looking at the various armor types: hide hard leather studded chain splint/banded plate the only peices that are going to provide much protection against a hammer is hardened leather, splint/banded, and plate. As far as damage reduction, I agree with Arstimis here, the damage reduction from most types of armor would be negligable around 1 pt of damage or less. Sure you could have magical or extreme armor that should provide some real damage reduction, but normal plate mail, for instance, is pretty all-or-nothing. Either the weapon hits the armor (miss), or you (hit). It might seem hard to beleive, but this really is a more realistic way to do things. I've played game systems where every attack is a hit and armor just reduces damage (Heroes of Might and Magic, Dark Age of Camelot (has extremely rare misses)), and quite frankly they suck. It often makes for utterly unrealistic un-exciting, low-damage combat that can go on forever. In the real world every hit hurts, or its not a "hit".
Sindorin 06-26-04, 08:19 PM	Paladin, that's a really interesting query... It might have contingency with damage type. The oddity there is that they have slashing, bludgeoning, piercing, etc. I believe to make this concept realistic, they should probably adjust the effects of each damage type according to armor class or some other specification. The armor aspect of the game is where it really seems unfinished, and this goes back to the previous debate about damage reduction from this thread. the autohit system completely eliminates touch ac. I would have a great time because i like to be a magic user and those would be some nasty automatically hitting ranged attacks. I hear you completely about every hit hurting in the real world - I have often wondered how many hit points I myself have, while bored at work. One way someone could look at it would be reading all damage as CON damage, thus after taking some damage you would have less total hit points, and then your actual hit points could be used for element damage such as fire. There are so many ways to revise the current system... it is sad to think that my books will all be out of date because of ideas like those of this thread. Also, why is there no non-Divine Healer class? I would love to play that, because i tend to not follow the Greyhawk Deity system but i also like Clerics. It could be a fun class, using alchemy and other aspects of the living world to make poitions, and use, say, plants and stuff... basically a medicine man. Wow, my bored ranting has produced something for me to mess around with. yay.
Magagumo 06-26-04, 10:40 PM	Sindorin, if you want non-clerical healing, youcould either examine D20 modern's Field Medic, or the the Psionic Healer that was just revised on the D & D page by Wizards (Sanherrin).
kattattack22 06-27-04, 12:07 AM	There is always a Bard too...
Sindorin 06-27-04, 12:40 AM	well, bard is arcane... the d20 modern thing would be fun, but i am thinking more of an herbalist or something along those lines... The psionic variant seems pretty neat as well... but I am going to have fun all the same and make my own version of it for my own "purposes" **evil laugh** Make an Amputate Check! It could even lead way to a Mad Scientist prestige class and he can do stuff to make Frankenstein Monsters or something interesting like that... I happen to be reading Mary Shelley's Frankenstein again, that's where I'm getting this... Silly me.
Kazzaroth Pan'theon 06-27-04, 09:45 AM	Well, in Miniature Handbook there is healer class (wich is non-divine healer wich can use cure disease and other common healing abilities x/day).