Rules Query/Discussion [Archive] - Wizards Community

Rules Query/Discussion [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Captain Mutilate
03-24-05, 08:56 AM I have a rules query and this will probably turn into a discussion, hence the name.

Basically, the PHB says this... "It is possible to throw a weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn’t have a numeric entry in the Range Increment column on Table: Weapons), but a character who does so takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet."

So, throwing a greatsword is a full-round action and I take a -4 to the attack, and my crit range is reduced. But what about this?

QUICK DRAW [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can draw a weapon as a free action instead of as a move action. You can draw a hidden weapon (see the Sleight of Hand skill) as a move action.
A character who has selected this feat may throw weapons at his full normal rate of attacks (much like a character with a bow).
Normal: Without this feat, you may draw a weapon as a move action, or (if your base attack bonus is +1 or higher) as a free action as part of movement. Without this feat, you can draw a hidden weapon as a standard action.
Special: A fighter may select Quick Draw as one of his fighter bonus feats.

So upon 6th level, I should be able to throw 2 greatswords a round, right? According to this feat, anyway.

But there's more. Since the thrown weapon is a ranged weapon, Point blank shot would give it +1 to attack and damage. And then...

RAPID SHOT [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Point Blank Shot.
Benefit: You can get one extra attack per round with a ranged weapon. The attack is at your highest base attack bonus, but each attack you make in that round (the extra one and the normal ones) takes a –2 penalty. You must use the full attack action to use this feat.
Special: A fighter may select Rapid Shot as one of his fighter bonus feats.
A 2nd-level ranger who has chosen the archery combat style is treated as having Rapid Shot, even if he does not have the prerequisites for it, but only when he is wearing light or no armor.

So... a thrown greatsword is a ranged weapon, and if I decide to throw an extra one in the round (which I could, with my Quickdraw), I take another -2 penalty on top of the -4 thrown penalty.

And what about THIS?

FAR SHOT [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Point Blank Shot.
Benefit: When you use a projectile weapon, such as a bow, its range increment increases by one-half (multiply by 1-1/2). When you use a thrown weapon, its range increment is doubled.
Special: A fighter may select Far Shot as one of his fighter bonus feats.

So... the thrown greatsword should have a range of 20 feet, right?

SHOT ON THE RUN [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, Point Blank Shot, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: When using the attack action with a ranged weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed.
Special: A fighter may select Shot on the Run as one of his fighter bonus feats.

So.. which of these feats can apply? I'm doubtful about shot on the run, but Rapid Shot, Quick Draw, and Far Shot seem within reach.

So, have I found a way to throw 8 pound, 5-foot weapons? Or should my dice be grinded into dust and scattered to the four winds?
Pittbull
03-24-05, 10:46 AM Sorry, Captain I don't agree!

With Quick Draw you can draw as many sword as you like per round, it's a free-action. Of course you need to drop the one in the hand (free-action), before you draw a new one. ;)

But throwing a great-sword is a full-round-action, which consumes all of the time of your round, you can't throw two greatsword, even if you have multiple attacks per round.

If you buy magic greatswords of throwing, it is only a standartaction to throw your swords and your idea works.
TaggIIV
03-24-05, 12:35 PM Maybe try throwing bastard swords (with EWP of course, so it is a standard action throw). Interesting idea, though. Of course, with a range increment of 10' you might as well skip it and just melee (if you got spring attack, and a level of barb, you can move back to wherever you wanted to position yourself with the throwing). And for just that small damage die size increase you might as well get a composite longbow, saves some of those feats and there are more feats that would apply to it... an extra +4 to hit also. And can actually attack from.. well.. a range. ;p

As for applying feats:

Far Shot will not work with any thrown weapon. It specifically says it applies to projectile weapons.

Rapid Shot, Point Blank Shot, and Shot on the Run would all apply to thrown weapons because in the description they say "ranged weapons."

Just keep in mind Shot on the Run only lets you make an attack action, not a full attack action
Captain Mutilate
03-24-05, 04:19 PM Far shot doubles the range increment of thrown weapons, and adds one-half onto a projectile weapon range increment. :P

And yes, I do plan on getting greatswords of throwing. Later...

And as for Rapid Shot, if I have Quick Draw I should be able to throw 2 greatswords. It depends on which part of the rules apply.... CATERANE!!!!!!!!!!
spasheridan
03-24-05, 04:45 PM For some reason this discussion makes me think of sword-chucks...

IMO throwing greatswords is silly. With that -4 to-hit penalty you might as well be using size large Spears. Spears are d8 for medium, so large makes em 2d6. Monkey grip and it's only -2, and since it's actually a throwing weapon you can go to town on rapid / far / shot. And spears are melee weapons as well so you're covered. Or you could go with expansion / enlarge and chuck size huge spears for 3d6 damage. Or 1/2 Giant pwerul build to wield the large spears with 0 penatly instead of monkey grip.

That's my 2 cents!
Caterane
03-24-05, 04:48 PM The PHB,p113 says that weapons without range increments listed (like Greatswords) can be thrown. The Farshot description breaks down Ranged Weapons into Projectile Weapons and Thrown Weapons. PHB,p113 backs this up as does common sense. So Greatswords can be thrown, and Thrown Weapons are Ranged Weapons.

Where the Farshot feat makes a distinction between Projectile and Thrown Weapons, the other "archery" feats only speak of Ranged Weapons which includes Thrown Weapons. So at a first glance it seems possible to throw greatswords with ranged feats.

However, if we want to motherbast by the very word:

"It is possible to throw a weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn’t have a numeric entry in the Range Increment column on Table: Weapons), but a character who does so takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet."

It never says a melee weapon becomes a thrown weapon, only that you can throw a melee weapon. It even names the weapons light, one-handed, and two-handed. So if we go by the very word it is not possible.

Personally I wouldn't mind if Capt.Mutilate builds a Greatsword thrower (doesn't seem to be effective to me anyway) but that is just my personal opinion and not a GM decision. If the Captain insists the Council has to decide on that matter.
Captain Mutilate
03-24-05, 05:03 PM I realize that it's not very effective, but my characters are usually different and I want to see if a Greatsword-thrower could stand punishment. And the imagination factor is great. A 6'8" giant of an orc throwing 5-foot 8 pound swords over 40 feet (albeit at a large penalty).

I think that going by the rules, I can take ranged feats that benefit thrown greatswords. If the council has the time to rule on this issue (within the next week or two) then I would put it forward. If you want me to write up a proposal to rule on I'll be happy to.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Captain Mutilate 03-24-05, 08:56 AM	I have a rules query and this will probably turn into a discussion, hence the name. Basically, the PHB says this... "It is possible to throw a weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn’t have a numeric entry in the Range Increment column on Table: Weapons), but a character who does so takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet." So, throwing a greatsword is a full-round action and I take a -4 to the attack, and my crit range is reduced. But what about this? QUICK DRAW [GENERAL] Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1. Benefit: You can draw a weapon as a free action instead of as a move action. You can draw a hidden weapon (see the Sleight of Hand skill) as a move action. A character who has selected this feat may throw weapons at his full normal rate of attacks (much like a character with a bow). Normal: Without this feat, you may draw a weapon as a move action, or (if your base attack bonus is +1 or higher) as a free action as part of movement. Without this feat, you can draw a hidden weapon as a standard action. Special: A fighter may select Quick Draw as one of his fighter bonus feats. So upon 6th level, I should be able to throw 2 greatswords a round, right? According to this feat, anyway. But there's more. Since the thrown weapon is a ranged weapon, Point blank shot would give it +1 to attack and damage. And then... RAPID SHOT [GENERAL] Prerequisites: Dex 13, Point Blank Shot. Benefit: You can get one extra attack per round with a ranged weapon. The attack is at your highest base attack bonus, but each attack you make in that round (the extra one and the normal ones) takes a –2 penalty. You must use the full attack action to use this feat. Special: A fighter may select Rapid Shot as one of his fighter bonus feats. A 2nd-level ranger who has chosen the archery combat style is treated as having Rapid Shot, even if he does not have the prerequisites for it, but only when he is wearing light or no armor. So... a thrown greatsword is a ranged weapon, and if I decide to throw an extra one in the round (which I could, with my Quickdraw), I take another -2 penalty on top of the -4 thrown penalty. And what about THIS? FAR SHOT [GENERAL] Prerequisite: Point Blank Shot. Benefit: When you use a projectile weapon, such as a bow, its range increment increases by one-half (multiply by 1-1/2). When you use a thrown weapon, its range increment is doubled. Special: A fighter may select Far Shot as one of his fighter bonus feats. So... the thrown greatsword should have a range of 20 feet, right? SHOT ON THE RUN [GENERAL] Prerequisites: Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, Point Blank Shot, base attack bonus +4. Benefit: When using the attack action with a ranged weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. Special: A fighter may select Shot on the Run as one of his fighter bonus feats. So.. which of these feats can apply? I'm doubtful about shot on the run, but Rapid Shot, Quick Draw, and Far Shot seem within reach. So, have I found a way to throw 8 pound, 5-foot weapons? Or should my dice be grinded into dust and scattered to the four winds?
Pittbull 03-24-05, 10:46 AM	Sorry, Captain I don't agree! With Quick Draw you can draw as many sword as you like per round, it's a free-action. Of course you need to drop the one in the hand (free-action), before you draw a new one. ;) But throwing a great-sword is a full-round-action, which consumes all of the time of your round, you can't throw two greatsword, even if you have multiple attacks per round. If you buy magic greatswords of throwing, it is only a standartaction to throw your swords and your idea works.
TaggIIV 03-24-05, 12:35 PM	Maybe try throwing bastard swords (with EWP of course, so it is a standard action throw). Interesting idea, though. Of course, with a range increment of 10' you might as well skip it and just melee (if you got spring attack, and a level of barb, you can move back to wherever you wanted to position yourself with the throwing). And for just that small damage die size increase you might as well get a composite longbow, saves some of those feats and there are more feats that would apply to it... an extra +4 to hit also. And can actually attack from.. well.. a range. ;p As for applying feats: Far Shot will not work with any thrown weapon. It specifically says it applies to projectile weapons. Rapid Shot, Point Blank Shot, and Shot on the Run would all apply to thrown weapons because in the description they say "ranged weapons." Just keep in mind Shot on the Run only lets you make an attack action, not a full attack action
Captain Mutilate 03-24-05, 04:19 PM	Far shot doubles the range increment of thrown weapons, and adds one-half onto a projectile weapon range increment. :P And yes, I do plan on getting greatswords of throwing. Later... And as for Rapid Shot, if I have Quick Draw I should be able to throw 2 greatswords. It depends on which part of the rules apply.... CATERANE!!!!!!!!!!
spasheridan 03-24-05, 04:45 PM	For some reason this discussion makes me think of sword-chucks... IMO throwing greatswords is silly. With that -4 to-hit penalty you might as well be using size large Spears. Spears are d8 for medium, so large makes em 2d6. Monkey grip and it's only -2, and since it's actually a throwing weapon you can go to town on rapid / far / shot. And spears are melee weapons as well so you're covered. Or you could go with expansion / enlarge and chuck size huge spears for 3d6 damage. Or 1/2 Giant pwerul build to wield the large spears with 0 penatly instead of monkey grip. That's my 2 cents!
Caterane 03-24-05, 04:48 PM	The PHB,p113 says that weapons without range increments listed (like Greatswords) can be thrown. The Farshot description breaks down Ranged Weapons into Projectile Weapons and Thrown Weapons. PHB,p113 backs this up as does common sense. So Greatswords can be thrown, and Thrown Weapons are Ranged Weapons. Where the Farshot feat makes a distinction between Projectile and Thrown Weapons, the other "archery" feats only speak of Ranged Weapons which includes Thrown Weapons. So at a first glance it seems possible to throw greatswords with ranged feats. However, if we want to motherbast by the very word: "It is possible to throw a weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn’t have a numeric entry in the Range Increment column on Table: Weapons), but a character who does so takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet." It never says a melee weapon becomes a thrown weapon, only that you can throw a melee weapon. It even names the weapons light, one-handed, and two-handed. So if we go by the very word it is not possible. Personally I wouldn't mind if Capt.Mutilate builds a Greatsword thrower (doesn't seem to be effective to me anyway) but that is just my personal opinion and not a GM decision. If the Captain insists the Council has to decide on that matter.
Captain Mutilate 03-24-05, 05:03 PM	I realize that it's not very effective, but my characters are usually different and I want to see if a Greatsword-thrower could stand punishment. And the imagination factor is great. A 6'8" giant of an orc throwing 5-foot 8 pound swords over 40 feet (albeit at a large penalty). I think that going by the rules, I can take ranged feats that benefit thrown greatswords. If the council has the time to rule on this issue (within the next week or two) then I would put it forward. If you want me to write up a proposal to rule on I'll be happy to.