Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LLMadCow 06-20-04, 09:04 PM	Can an enherited Template be added to a character that already has levels? Of course, this would costs the normal cost for the LA (LA x 3), but can we do it? Imagine a character going through a life change. The Assassin who fully embraces his demonic heritage... The Lycanthrope who experiences his first change... The Paladin who is gifted with the miracle of Celestial blood... The possibilities are there and VERY exciting!
Caterane 06-20-04, 09:35 PM	I have no objections against this. Though inherited means "from the beginning on" there might always be a roleplaying solution to get this explained in a RL campaign. But I can't speak for others. If we decide that this is not possible, then we have to make rules which template can be taken when and under which circumstances. I'd say, for simplicities sake, let them all be available by paying the LA price in credits.
Tellish_of_Ket 06-20-04, 10:57 PM	I know Mike wanted pale-rider to acquire lich-dom, but not sure where his plans stand with that anymore. I'm sure it's the same thing. Again, i also don't see anything terribly wrong with it, but i haven't really given it a lot of thought either. -ToK
LLMadCow 06-21-04, 01:33 AM	Well, if it wasn't already evident, I want to add a template to an exisiting character. some may know where I am going, and others may not, but I know what I want. So, I will let this stand for a a few days to see what people think. My interests are Role Playing and also stem from previous desires and wanting to continue with a character that is well established. As an added bonus, from the persepctive of the characters life, a touch of the supernatural has already occurred.
Caterane 06-21-04, 08:19 AM	With Tellish and me you already have 2 Elders on your side. Another one (Ethendril, Motherbast, Jindler) seals this. I don't want to make up a vote for this issue but 3 Elders in favor virtually makes this ok. I'm sure Ethendril won't throw boulders in your way.
Ethendril 06-21-04, 11:44 AM	Originally posted by Caterane I'm sure Ethendril won't throw boulders in your way. I'm not entirely sure what this means, but I am in favor of allowing templates for advancing in core races. We've already said we can have a lich by advancing this way, I see no reason LL can't add half-fiend to one of his characters;) . The end result is exactly the same character as you would have had by acquiring the template at first level.
LLMadCow 06-21-04, 02:14 PM	So, guys, do I get the go ahead? Just say the word, and I will progress. Please allow me to have 1 negative credit, as many others have been allowed, and I will pay it off as soon as possible. Once I get an affirmative response, I will proceed and write my RP that goes with everything.
Beldin 06-21-04, 02:53 PM	i think they are not talking about spending credits to gain a template; they talk about taking a level in template class like the lich on the wotc page. So no spending of credits.
freemoody 06-21-04, 03:20 PM	Originally posted by Ethendril The end result is exactly the same character as you would have had by acquiring the template at first level. Actually it's much more difficult to start a half-fiend with one character level at ECL 5.
Ethendril 06-21-04, 03:32 PM	Originally posted by freemoody Actually it's much more difficult to start a half-fiend with one character level at ECL 5. Right, but I just meant that the end result is the same character. The route there is a bit tougher (I've played three out of my four characters with a level adjustment, so I know those first levels are tough:) ).
LLMadCow 06-21-04, 03:35 PM	I agree that the dynamics of taking a template after first level are different. That is why I am asking and trying to get an open discussion on the subject. In all honesty, this will have some benefits, but major drawbacks. It is very in line with the character and has a huge impact on what I am doing and the path I am taking. Another thing to remember is that when a character starts as a Half-fiend it only costs 9 credits, but what I am asking to do would cost me the full 12 credits. Some difference, but worth noting. Yes, I want to pay the FULL LA cost to add a template to an existing character. So there!
freemoody 06-21-04, 04:46 PM	This discussion reminds of the last Arc The Lad game on PS2. Where Karg realizes he's a Diemos and grows wings.
SnarkHunter 06-21-04, 06:03 PM	I would prefer the Level up by taking levels in template route to the Buy Template w/ credits route myself.
LLMadCow 06-21-04, 06:17 PM	Unless I am mistaken, the system only has the ability to become: a Lich, Lycanthrope, or a Half-Dragon (Through PrC, of course).
Magagumo 06-21-04, 06:19 PM	Agreed with Snark, since that allows step-by-step increase in the character, allowing them to fight for their power increase. In this way, there is still a small advanatge to buying Templates with creds, but you also have time to build a stronger character before entering them into the realm of "lost levels." Of course, Anna might have had many difficulties winning ebfore becoming a ghost, but that's why both options are available :) Heck, we could even find Vampires creeping in, perhaps based off a 12th elvel character and slowly evolving into the undead until full ascension at 20th level. Of course, most of their powers are useless in the arena. Hmm, I thought the Wizards website for D & D gave progression classes for several templates?
Ethendril 06-21-04, 06:21 PM	Originally posted by LLMadCow Unless I am mistaken, the system only has the ability to become: a Lich, Lycanthrope, or a Half-Dragon (Through PrC, of course). And half-celestial and half-fiend...
LLMadCow 06-21-04, 06:37 PM	Originally posted by Ethendril And half-celestial and half-fiend... Well, I want on of my characters to become a Templated creature by spending the credits. Do the boards and/or books actually have a level progression for taking levels of Half-Celestial/Fiend?
kattattack22 06-22-04, 12:27 AM	Savage Progressions Archive (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/archive.asp?x=dnd/sp,3) includes - Lycanthropes, Lich, Aasimar, Teifling, Drow, Feytouched, Half-Fey, Duergar, Svirfneblin, Fiendish Creature, Ghost, Half-Fiend, Half-Dragon, and Transition Classes (Aasimar -> Half-Celestial, Teifling -> Half-Fiend, Feytouched -> Half-Fey, Dwarf -> Duergar, Half-Drow -> Drow, Gnome -> Svirfneblin) In case anyone is curious.
Ethendril 06-22-04, 11:34 AM	Originally posted by LLMadCow Well, I want on of my characters to become a Templated creature by spending the credits. Do the boards and/or books actually have a level progression for taking levels of Half-Celestial/Fiend? What we had agreed upon with the lich previously is that you could use the progression on the Wizards of the Coast website (which, as kattattack pointed out, are from Savage Progressions). There is an advancement there for half-fiends and half-celestials.
Jindl 06-24-04, 02:40 AM	I'll post more later, when I return from vacation. But for now, I'll say that I am against adding an inherited template later, whether through the use of credits or otherwise. There is a reason that some templates are inherited and others are not. Doing this would be outside the core rules. Also, I am against allowing the savage progressions on the WoTC website. They are not Core. They are also not very well playtested and are easily broken. I have not issues with adding a non-inherited template later, through the use of credits. So anybody who wants to spend a few credits to become a ghost, lich, afflicted lycanthrope, or vampire (I think that's all of them) can certainly do so, and would recieve additional money and rank as if they had won the necessary fights to advance to their new power level. And vampires are horribly overrated in ECL. LA +8, no way. -Jindl
Magagumo 06-24-04, 08:41 AM	I've thought that myself, Re: Vampires, Jindl. They're over ECed for the arena, because we do not allow: -immediate wins by Dominate Monster- I Surrender master -Allowing a vampire to be reduced to gaseous form, heal up, and return several hours later -Entering with Spawn equal to 2x his/her HD These three abilities make a vampire exceeedingly dangerous (and perhaps worth the 8 levels a player must pay to use them). In our arena, they're LA 4-6 at best, entering with perhaps one nice spawn cohort (for free), still loosing when reduced to gaseous form (a weakness, since that leaves them with less leeway than a living glad), and making them work to kill the Dominated Gladiator.
Kazzaroth Pan'theon 06-25-04, 09:23 PM	But are the vampires power Children of Nigth still active (hey, 4-12 wolves or bat swarm are quite distraction)? And it is possible to become gaseous form before your foe strikes back, re-form and strike and then become gaseous form once again (I do not remember was it move action or as free action)? Also the quick helaing happens in rounds, not hours ;). Only prob is that the vampires could only figth during nigth hours and so the darkness of the shadows should be considered in arena :rolleyes: . btw; It would be nice fluff to make other gladiator a vampire spawn and then use it as "cohort" in own figth (of course agreeing on this via PM) :D. It does not add any LA to creature wich is just vampire spawn and get nice benefits from it.
Battousai2005 07-01-04, 12:40 AM	Vamps are fun, and I was actually thinking of making one. However, 12 hp at 9th level is kinda a killer. Anyway, I have to disagree with getting inherited templates at anything but level 1. The problem is that it is stated in the rules as being an impossibility. Unless you were a strage person, it would be difficult to explain.
Druid Roxors 07-01-04, 04:48 AM	I would like to repost the comments I made on this issue on the "Tavern" thread here. These comments were addressed to Jindl. Originally Posted by Druid Roxors Although, Jindl, you must remember that the arena is a place to test builds. Not necesarily a roleplaying adventure or Campaign. I don't find myself beating an equal level character on a campain and leveling up. I am not against adding aquired templates or inherited templates. Nevertheless, a penalty should be applied when doing so in this fascion. Surviving the lower levels with a template is much more difficult due to the level adjustment, BAB, hp, etc. Should a new rule arise from this debate, I propose 4 credits per additional ECL. Originally Posted by Jindl @Druid - A very good point, and one that I completely agree with. The low survivability of most ECL gladiators in the early levels is certainly an important factor, and I do think requiring additional credits to add a template later (though I still think we should only allow this for the acquired templates) is a good idea. I think 4 credits per ECL (instead of the 3 / ECL when starting) is a good suggestion. -Jindl Originally Posted by Druid Roxors I find that the main problem that you see on this, Jindl, is that it is not "Apropriate" on a campaign. But, consider that those templates, although inherited, are completely possible under the current rules. There is no mechanical difference on paying 6 credits to bump your character from level 4 -> 6 or paying 12 credits to create a new character. The final character is the same one, I cannot find any exploitable situation with Inherited Templates. Although, I still stand by my proposition of 4 credits/ECL. (once the character is active and has fought)
LLMadCow 07-01-04, 05:08 AM	I would like to point out, that with all the crying and fussing about what is fair and what is not fair and how much of an unfair advantage, realize this: Clio had suffered through a painfully slow advancement, 6 losses in a row, AND SHE WAS A MyTh. This is a particularly tough advancement anyway. So, I am left with: Start over as a Half-Celestial and NEVER ADVANCE short of a bump, or go back to where I was, despite the posts and the direction of my character. Fine, I quit. I am tired of fussing. I guess the heart of the matter is I am very interested in the character development and thge story side of a character. I do not need to test the survivability of the this build at lower levels: It stinks! She died a lot. She's weak and frail.
Battousai2005 07-01-04, 02:33 PM	Originally posted by LLMadCow I would like to point out, that with all the crying and fussing about what is fair and what is not fair and how much of an unfair advantage, realize this: Clio had suffered through a painfully slow advancement, 6 losses in a row, AND SHE WAS A MyTh. This is a particularly tough advancement anyway. So, I am left with: Start over as a Half-Celestial and NEVER ADVANCE short of a bump, or go back to where I was, despite the posts and the direction of my character. Fine, I quit. I am tired of fussing. I guess the heart of the matter is I am very interested in the character development and thge story side of a character. I do not need to test the survivability of the this build at lower levels: It stinks! She died a lot. She's weak and frail. :D I sypathize, belive me. Akordia is a MT build as well, and as you can see, not the best at the moment. Just stick with it. I am, and it looks to be paying off.
Magagumo 07-01-04, 02:42 PM	Yes, MT seems to hold an immense amount of potential (so many spells *sweat*) but between the d4s and the inability to wear armor... it definitely is a tough class to play. My personal suggestion is to focus on spells that don't require massive saves to work (for example, Necromancy spells tend to be "save negates", but evocation is fairly decent dmg even if saves are made. *shrug* It's a tricky build, definetely better for parties that require the arcane might and divine healing.) My other suggestion, would be to explore either a sorceror for arcane (good Charisma lends well to Leadership feats, giving you that tough bodyguard) or even exploring a cross with druid... Natural Spell and Wildshape could help with the abn from wearing armor, and the animal companion is a nice plus. Just some (hopefully) helpful thoughts if you were looking to remake Clio, LL One final thought, is to incorporate a monk's belt, since that apparently gives you the Wisdom bonus to AC.
Battousai2005 07-01-04, 02:54 PM	Actually, if you look at Akordia, she is getting sorc levels. It made sense to me as she was a drow with the +2 charisma. Besides, I like playing the high Cha female characters. And, like you said, leadership will be fun.
Magagumo 07-01-04, 03:20 PM	Hehe, I actually haven't perused her, amittedly. And now am very tempted by druid Mystic Theurge... but I will resist!! (After all, 6 characters, 4 of which are active, is probably enough ;))
Jindl 07-01-04, 03:30 PM	Originally posted by Magagumo Hehe, I actually haven't perused her, amittedly. And now am very tempted by druid Mystic Theurge... but I will resist!! (After all, 6 characters, 4 of which are active, is probably enough ;)) FYI: I've actually been working on the new "Elder" build for a little while now. Its a grey elf Drd5/Wiz3/MyTh10/Drd6-7 that makes heavy use of natural spell + wildshape and spectral hand + druid touch spells. Expect to see the debut of this character very soon. -Jindl
Battousai2005 07-01-04, 03:41 PM	Originally posted by Jindl FYI: I've actually been working on the new "Elder" build for a little while now. Its a grey elf Drd5/Wiz3/MyTh10/Drd6-7 that makes heavy use of natural spell + wildshape and spectral hand + druid touch spells. Expect to see the debut of this character very soon. -Jindl *Shudder
Magagumo 07-01-04, 03:53 PM	Rockin, can't wait to see it in action, Jindl :)
kattattack22 07-01-04, 08:30 PM	I find buff and touch spells for the MT to be the best way to go. @Jindl - If you do make your new Elder I would really like to see him go against Arkin. It may be against RP, but the sheer craziness of 2 MT's would be fun.
Sindorin 07-01-04, 09:30 PM	this is just crazy, as i walked about work today (i was bored) i kept thinking that a druid/wizard would be pretty formidable... I guess it would be better shown-off in Jindl's hands instead of mine though... I still wanna do it though, maybe i will, maybe i wont. OR maybe Tair can just start taking levels in druid... hmm... **spooky music**
Jindl 07-01-04, 09:43 PM	Check out this old thread, where I first posted my build (one of the few that I take credit for :D ) [http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=126907] @Batt - Is that your old user ID, I see?
Kazzaroth Pan'theon 07-02-04, 05:49 PM	Originally posted by Battousai2005 Vamps are fun, and I was actually thinking of making one. However, 12 hp at 9th level is kinda a killer. Anyway, I have to disagree with getting inherited templates at anything but level 1. The problem is that it is stated in the rules as being an impossibility. Unless you were a strage person, it would be difficult to explain. *Shakes fist to Battousai* Do not make before me (btw, you need FOUR racial hit dice before you can make a vamp ;))! I had just moment ago EXCELENT loss wich would make my char reborn as vampire! Bad is that I am probaly "disappearing" from WotC boards for MONTHS (half year at least) before I can pitlord again (there is 1 vs 10,000 chance that it will not happen) and get enough creds to make Kazeira as vampire :P. But if you are patient Battousai, I can glaldy make any your char's vampire by my char (or into vampire spawn) :D. I have severall questions regarding such high LA being like drow vampire; 1) Do his cohorts level is counted by his adventurer levels, or by his actual ECL (later would be fairer in my opinion)? If it is counted as adventurer levels, can I get free "cohort" by taking vampire spawn wich can have twice as much HD than my char haves? It would be fair in such high LA :rolleyes: . 2) By adding vampire template, my char effectively rises 8lvl in league levels, so do I get gold based by having single victory in 14lvl fight, or is gold based by ECL and taked from that level adventurer's starting gold or do I count all victories trough league 7 to 15 league and add all victory gold together? It would be great suck if I should try survive such high levels whit junky gear and possibly whit cohort wich problay does not have any gear. 3) Like earlier was mentioned, vampires most abilities are quite useless in arena, so is it the vampire's LA reduced into 6 to be fair? If that is done, then do I pay the template in credits by the originall LA amount or by new modified amount?
Battousai2005 07-02-04, 08:29 PM	Originally posted by Kazzaroth Pan'theon *Shakes fist to Battousai* Do not make before me (btw, you need FOUR racial hit dice before you can make a vamp ;))! I had just moment ago EXCELENT loss wich would make my char reborn as vampire! Bad is that I am probaly "disappearing" from WotC boards for MONTHS (half year at least) before I can pitlord again (there is 1 vs 10,000 chance that it will not happen) and get enough creds to make Kazeira as vampire :P. But if you are patient Battousai, I can glaldy make any your char's vampire by my char (or into vampire spawn) :D. I have severall questions regarding such high LA being like drow vampire; 1) Do his cohorts level is counted by his adventurer levels, or by his actual ECL (later would be fairer in my opinion)? If it is counted as adventurer levels, can I get free "cohort" by taking vampire spawn wich can have twice as much HD than my char haves? It would be fair in such high LA :rolleyes: . 2) By adding vampire template, my char effectively rises 8lvl in league levels, so do I get gold based by having single victory in 14lvl fight, or is gold based by ECL and taked from that level adventurer's starting gold or do I count all victories trough league 7 to 15 league and add all victory gold together? It would be great suck if I should try survive such high levels whit junky gear and possibly whit cohort wich problay does not have any gear. 3) Like earlier was mentioned, vampires most abilities are quite useless in arena, so is it the vampire's LA reduced into 6 to be fair? If that is done, then do I pay the template in credits by the originall LA amount or by new modified amount? No worries about that. I said I was considering it. I dumped it after a while. Now I don't know what to shoot for. *sigh* I guess I need a fun concept. Its driving me nuts!!! Though I do have one or two nasty ideas... 1) I think we resolved this as being ECL in the allies debate thread. 2) Gold based on ECL. 3) Doubt it. Despite the fact that many of a vamps abilites are useless, we have a few issues. As before mentioned, children of the night. 4-12 wolves? Jo'li, say goodnight. You have been replaced as "godly arena summoner." Ok, dominate gaze. No one said anything about dominating allies. Hmm, gaseous form does not bode well with the 10 rounds and you have problems, but still, good way to avoid attacks.
Kazzaroth Pan'theon 07-02-04, 09:22 PM	Thanks Battousai for answers :). Those helped me to think more better concept (even tough +10 LA is going to hurt). I have only one question tough; If I take leadership feat, can I make my cohort as vampire spawn? After all, it does not add anything to LA and it would make sense (not to mention it will add some minor abilities to cohort). Of course I must the HD in limit what I can hold a vampire spawn (wich is 12 if I take leadership in 6lvl). Was not taking gaseous form a free action to vampire? In my opinion it is not considered as "hiding" because I am still visible (only as mist yes), so does it count for the 10 round limit wich is used when somebody is avoiding combat by hiding (and by transforming into something wich other gladiator cannot hurt does not sound to fit inot 10 round limit)? Even then if it is counted to 10 round limit, it is very nice ability to have (when your foe is just going to strike, you just avoid the blow my transforming into mist and then transform back and strike your foe :D), not to mention to fast healing to each round. Of course undead instate death spells are nasty to face, but then you msut consider to get cohort wich is not undead :rolleyes: .
Druid Roxors 07-02-04, 09:43 PM	Wrong Thread OOps
Kazzaroth Pan'theon 07-03-04, 05:39 AM	I now checked it, taking any form is considered as standard action :(. Oh well, if foe is not caster, I have free 10 rounds of healing in gaseous form :D.
Magagumo 07-03-04, 09:58 AM	Actually, Gaseous form is not likely to be penalized: flying isnt, you aren't completely invisible, and if you're a 13th lvl character who doesn't have magic ranged weapons or flight, than you have no one to blame but yourself ;)