Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Caterane 04-29-05, 02:40 PM	This is an open discussion where I'd like to see everyone participate. Please read this carefully and make up your own thoughts about it as it might have a big impact on how we handle psionics in the future. As you might have noticed, there are some balance problems with psionics. The worst powers are vigor and energy ray but there are others. Powers in on itself or the psionic classes - and I want to stress this - are not the problem. The psion and the wilder may be powerful classes but they also have a very limited selection of powers which evens there advantages out. In a campaign, I can see that these classes harmonize well with the rest of the group without being inferior (like in 3.0) or being the uber-characters. The Problem: Their disadvantages are however offset by the CoCo rule that you can - unlike in a campaign - buy any item anytime that you can afford. And you can do that after every fight. Secondly, some powers are just way too powerful for their price and their powerlevel. We cannot change the first fact (free access to any item) although we have restricted it somewhat with the Blackmarket which was IMO a very good step towards more realism - realism in form of a real campaign - and only improves one of CoCo's purpose of testing builds. We can however work on the second fact: the incorrect pricing of psionic expendables! I don't want to bore you with a long explanation but want to state some examples which should speak for themselves: Vigor (1st level power) - gain 5 hp per 1 PP; cost 25*ML - For 150 gp, you gain 30 temporary hp. Comparison with aid (1d8+3 for 150 gp) or false life (1d10+3 for 150 gp). 150 gp are nothing, even for a level 3 gladiator who starts with 3000 gp. Once the 30 hp are down, you can just manifest them anew for an apple and an egg. Instead of ~10 hp which a lvl 3 psion should have, he can easily get way over 100 hp and more, only limited by the number of powerstones he has. There's clearly something wrong here. At level 20 for example, you can manifest 100 hp till the end of time because you'll have so much money that ML 20 powerstones don't matter => you almost cannot die from hp loss. Energy Ray (1st level power) - deal 1d6 damage per 1 PP of one of four energy types, plus gain a side effect depending on the element. Ranged touch, no save. - For 150 gp, you deal 6d6+6 damage (which is enough to drop any 3rd level gladiator). Long range (enlarged; which is free) Energy ray is very difficult to protect against. The fact that you can choose from 5 element types makes it impossible to protect against elements, and even then you would need four level 2 spells, and even THEN it would only block 10 damage. Surely not enough to resist ongoing energy rays. With a bit of preparation from the psions side, he can defeat any protection you might come up with. And even if you anyhow do, just use a concussion blast instead. The most dangerous spell at this level is magic missile. A simple shield spell or a cheap brooch of shielding which everyone can afford at level 3, gives complete protection against this spell. Also magic missile has a cap at CL 9 and scales every two levels only so for 150 gp you only get 3d4+3 damage. But to make it really ridiculous: compare energy ray to polar ray! Polar Ray is a level 8 wizard spell, similar to energy ray with the difference that is has only close range (opposed to long) and deals only cold damage. If THAT doesn't make it obvious that there's something wrong, I can't help you. But I am not finished! It becomes even better if we compare the prices: Polar Ray at CL 20 costs 4000 gold. Energy ray costs 500. And is much better on top of that. I think that says it all. Like with the Gate spell that has been banned from the CoCo (and surely many real life groups, including my own), it is obvious that someone hasn't thought the rules for psionic items to the end ...or hasn't thought at all. For those who have read the latest posts on the violations thread, or read the description of crafting dorjes, you might have noticed that dorjes follow a special stand-alone rule, that for every 2 PP the stored power increases in power level, thus Xanadu's ML 6 vigor wand holds a 3rd level power, not a 1st level one. That on the other hand would be nonsense unless powerstones, tattoos, and other psionic storage items follow the same rule. Dorjes would be completely useless. This however kindled that discussion here as it seems that in this case, someone DID put at least some thoughts into psionics by having powers scale in level for every 2 manifester levels, which affects the price for such items thus making them more expensive... and this is the proposal that I hereby make! Although psionic items would still be more powerful than their magic counterparts (remember: psionics - few but more powerful powers opposed to wizards with more spells but less powerful ones - are offset by the fact that you can buy expendables) ...even though they would still be more powerful, it would be MUCH more balanced if we would have powers scales in level (power level; not manifester level) for every 2 PP that go into an expendable item. Result (for vigor) 5 hp (ML 1) for 25 gp 15 hp (ML 3) for 150 gp (which is still much better than aid or false life) 30 hp (ML 6) for 400 gp which is better than it is now. Psions will still use these items. Lvl 3: 30 hp for 400 gold when I can win 900 gp and mark a victory on the roster is still a very good option. If the same person now wants to blast some energy rays on top of that, it gets expensive very quickly. In my opinion this is a very elegant solution! One very simple change in the rules that can be expressed with just a few words ("powers scale in level for every 2 ML") would fix so much. It would be a CoCo houserule but a good one and one that is born out of the special enviroment that is Gladius (access to everything), and one that would surely be taken over by every group that makes up their mind about psionics. I could enforce it but that's something I don't want to decide alone. IMO it will help everyone, psion/wilder and non-psionic characters. It is surely no fun to die by masses of high-powered energy rays at level 3 while the psion has twice the hp of a barbarian, and it won't help the psion to see wether he has a good build or not. Besides, if we don't fix this then one level of psion/wilder is almost mandatory for every build because there's no better class you could take. You would be foolish not to take that one level - no matter what kind of build you have. Alright, I've talked a lot now and I let you do the same now. Please share your thoughts about that problem, and also tell us why you agree/disagree with what I said. If you disagree, then please don't just pick one single sentence but address all points I brought up. Thanks for reading Cat
Jindl 04-29-05, 02:52 PM	@Cat- I just want to point out a couple of minor errors, which you may want to edit in: - A character with a high amount of vigor can still die from hp loss, because temporary hps do not make you immune to the death from massive damage rules. Granted, this isn't much of a threat until characters are capable of dealing 50+ points of damage with a single attack, but it does lessen the "cheez factor" of an ECL10+ character with 100+ temporary hps. - Energy ray only allows 4 choices of energy. It cannot be used for acid damage, so Psions should fear the half-red dragon trolls. Having made those minor corrections, let me just say this in regards to your proposal: I AGREE COMPLETELY !! (betcha haven't seen the darkgreen pen in a while, eh?) I've been pondering the same solution for a while, and just recently introduced it into my RL campaign (where we have both a shaper and a telepath in our 4 pc group.) I think augmented powers are supposed to scale in "power level" with augmentation, as described in dorjes. I do want to draw a distinction between augmentable powers and non-augmentable powers. There is no reason to scale the powerlevel on a power that doesn't augment. So if someone wants a higher CL on a powerstone: skate, just to increase the duration perhaps, then that powerstone shouldn't be priced off of a higher power level, since skate doesn't augment. Other than making that distinction, I think this is a very good proposal! -Jindl
Caterane 04-29-05, 02:59 PM	Ok, thanks. Corrected (although the massive damage Dc is only 15) I also agree with what you said about non-augmented powers. It will be necessary to have a certain manifester level if you don't want to lose all powers to a dispel. Magic works the same way. (betcha haven't seen the darkgreen pen in a while, eh?) I wouldn't dare to touch that color :D
Cerebus13 04-29-05, 03:09 PM	I'll voice my opinion and say that I'm definitely on board for this idea. Cheesed out ML 5 Energy Rays for only 125gp are quite annoying :pbbbtt:. A few concerns I think may come up are: 1) What to do with items that were purchased under the old system? 2) What if players want to change class choices based on a sweeping change like this? (those players that took single level dips in Psion/Wilder would likely fall in here) 3) With Jindl's idea of this price scaling applying to powers that aren't augmentable...could we purchase items of a higher ML and not augment them and avoid the price scaling? For #1 I would say offer a full refund on any illegal items so there are no record keeping headaches later on. #2 might not be that big of a deal but I thought it worth mentioning in case anyone brings it up with their gladiator. #3 could be useful (as Cat said) to avoid having all of your stuff dispelled in one shot.
Caterane 04-29-05, 03:15 PM	A few concerns I think may come up are: 1) What to do with items that were purchased under the old system? 2) What if players want to change class choices based on a sweeping change like this? (those players that took single level dips in Psion/Wilder would likely fall in here) 3) With Jindl's idea of this price scaling applying to powers that aren't augmentable...could we purchase items of a higher ML and not augment them and avoid the price scaling? 1) Full refund 2) This would be too much of an impact. Either live with it (you still can use these expendables, and they are still very good) or make a new build 3) Yes, you can buy un-augmented ones which do not scale in level. We would have to mark augmented powers. Write "augmented" behind the item.
Salzorin 04-29-05, 03:18 PM	an ML6 vigor (power raises from PL1 to PL3), would actually cost 450g with your rules, not 400. an ML5 vigor would cost 375g. Personally, I disagree with this proposal. Psionics is a pretty heavy money-sink as it is now, but managable. Right now, if a psion starting out wants to be able to use a vigor (ML 5), a force screen (ML1, but may need more then one, x2 for this case), an inertial armor (ML1, but may need more then one, x2 for this case), and maybe some energy rays (ML 5, lets say 2 for this case), he's looking at spending 475gp. If he loses the fight, that's -175gp... so obviously he has to be sparing with his money and watch what he uses. If we used the new system, his cost would go up to 375x3+100 = 1225gp ... so even if he were to win in that situation, he'd lose money. That just seems too high priced. And a psionic charcter, with the current 1/3rd rule is FORCED to use powers from stones. In example, I've got a ECL 3 Githzerai Wilder I've been planning out. He starts with one level in wilder. He can only use 1PP in a fight in the arena. He HAS to use stones, he has no other option. I can understand people getting frustrated with manifesting uber-lvl powers in a fight. Personally, I think the ECL+2 rule is kind of flawed. I think we shouldn't be allowing powers/spells from items higher than ECL... At the very least, I think that if we were to truly consider increases to the price of psionic expendables, that we have to remove or somehow reduce the 1/3rd rule from psionics so that they can use more powers. Otherwise we'll have a bunch of psionic characters that can only actually use powers if they want to break the bank.
spasheridan 04-29-05, 03:25 PM	I have a few comments about the idea: Scaling and PP / day: Each wizard spell is cast at full caster level. So 3 10d6 fireballs cost 9 spell levels, but 3 10d6 energy balls costs 30 PP. 30 PP is much costlier than 9 spell levels. For example, my 5th level psion has 14 PP usuable in each battle. That's 2 max spells (5 PP) and 1 augemented (4pp). Consider a 5th level evoker with a 22 int (just like Legion). 6 1st +5 2nd +3 3rd spells makes it 25 spell levels or 9 spell levels a fight. Thats all 3 3rd level spells, or 2 3rd and 3 5th level magic missiles. For a psion's powers to be usefull they tend to need to be augmented to max. Therefore Legion picks a handful of powers (vigor, precog-offense, precof-defense) to come from stones. THe next step in my battle is to zap with my own powers. THEN, to finish it off, I need to rely on stones again because I'm out of PP. Resource Restriction: Maybe the overuse of powerstones comes from a lack of PP to be used in the arena. Remember, in a party of 4 the big guns will hang back and use little or no resources in a fight or 2 each day (the low CR ones) to make sure the high CR encounters are taken down quickly. Maybe a better analysis would be 1/2 PP & spell levels a day to show that you would generaly only have a single tough fight a day and a battle in the arena is about as tough as it comes. a level 3 PC is a CR 3 encounter, which is supposed to use up 25% of the resources of a party of 4.. so a single PC would use 100% of their resources to deal with it. Cost/Benefit Finally, I believe your analysis of costs: benefit is a bit off. Consider how tough it is to use dispel magic vs a bunch of 1st level (even augmented to 20 PP) powers. Vs that the money is just thrown away. Also, if you as a PC rely on 1 shot items then you've used them in every battle. WHile 1000 gp/ fight seems like chump change, the fact is that it will add up over time. My Conclusion: All that aside, I have always felt that 1 shot items are a bit overcharged in this kind of environment. They are vital for a PC who is severly restricted in their PP a day. IF a change is to be made, I suggest: 1) Alter resources a day allowed to 1/2 instead of 1/3. 2) I feel a better change would be to return items to their "core" setting. All stones / scrolls / tattoos are sold at standard MINIMUM CL. Any item purchased above that minimum CL must be purchased through the blackmarket. 2b)Scroll & Stone making feats will now become even more desirable, so let's restrict that to a single scroll (3 spells) or stone (3 powers) a day, no matter what the cost.
Salzorin 04-29-05, 03:46 PM	2) I feel a better change would be to return items to their "core" setting. All stones / scrolls / tattoos are sold at standard MINIMUM CL. Any item purchased above that minimum CL must be purchased through the blackmarket. The only problem with this is that all Psionics are based around the concept of scalability. Sure, Energy Ray is a lvl 1 power... but there's never a power later on that does the same thing as energy ray. Whereas magic has redundancy built in, so you get upgraded versions as you progress in levels. The spell names change, but the attack type and the lack of save or type of save is repeated again and again. There is NO other power within psionics other than energy ray that ONLY uses a ranged touch attack, with no save. A lack of redundancy encourages the allowment of scalability in my opinion... that's why they set it up as they did. Since you can continually bump PP into powers to improve them to the level you are, they never had to create redundancy in later power levels. If you were to limit stones to the base ML needed to cast the core power... then it would sort of ruin the point of psionics... (Cure light wounds, medium wounds, serious wounds ... but there's no Vigor, Improved Vigor, Greater Vigor...)
Sunwolf 04-29-05, 04:26 PM	@Cat I also agree with the assessment that the augmentable powers should increase in effective level (for cost purposes) for every additional 2 power points applied. Vigor powerstones are just too cost effective. I think that perhaps the restrictions on powerpoints (only) be upped to 1/2 from 1/3 available per fight. While not perfect, it should allow psionic characters to have a chance to limit their resource burn per fight. I think that the limit of 1/3 for spell levels, stunning fists, etc seems to be working okay so far. As for charging credits for all non-minimum level items (powerstones, potions) etc, I think that penalizes unduly those who may not have the time to earn lots of credits.
Sindorin 04-29-05, 04:29 PM	I really wouldn't mind implementing such changes. Sometimes such house rules are truly necessary. Even if there is "something wrong" with whatever is put in place, as long as it makes things truly fair, I am for it.
King Uther 04-29-05, 04:35 PM	Either way it is impossble to find perfect balance. If you make powerstones and the like unaugmentable, then you make magic significantly better than psionics, whereas at the moment at low levels psionics wins out. The only thing you can do is to prevent people buying things above their manifester level. And even then the 1/3rd rule puts psions and wilders in the position of being somewhat underpowered without multi-classing.
Caterane 04-29-05, 05:29 PM	For those who propose a 1/2 rule over 1/3, I need to tell you that Ashenai and I carefully considered the amount of restriction for casters (incl manifesters). We both agreed without a doubt that 1/2 would not be enough; we were even closer to 1/4 than 1/2. At low levels, this will weaken casters (although I can't see casters being thrown around!! Quite the opposite!), but those who have been here in the old CoCo remember the frustrating fights when a caster faced a non-caster - the non-caster being without a chance. Infact, we had only one straight fighter that made it to the upper levels (level 12) but he had lost a lot of fights on the way. Other than that there were mostly only casters! And very few melee types. Surely that is not the wanted effect nor does it reflect a campaign. Or compare Angosh and the Harvester's record (sorry Pittbull; not your fault but that of the old system). You will soon agree with me once you see higher levels in action, and the 1/3 rule is imo very well balanced towards melee types. Anyway, that has been decided upon long ago and won't be changed (unless we have seen high levels in action and detect a definate need to change this policy which I a) don't believe will happen and b) is a long time away). @Salzorin: Sorry but that absolutely doesn't convince me. There's no need for an upgraded version; infact having one power that can be upgraded is much better than having three different spells of different levels, and not the other way around - ie worse - like you just said. Your examples also don't address the problem. Vigor is much much more potent than cure spells, plus temporary hitpoints are much better than healing (where you have to get damaged first), plus you have all that in one power instead of several ones, plus it is much cheaper, and if we now consider the fact that psions are not supposed to be better healers than clerics, then the only thing I can say about vigor is that it is broken beyond reason. Same for energy ray (remember: polar ray which is much weaker even?). Please don't play that down. And again: we do not forbid expendables. You can still buy them albeit at a reasonable price - a price casters have to pay too! I can understand people getting frustrated with manifesting uber-lvl powers in a fight. Personally, I think the ECL+2 rule is kind of flawed. I think we shouldn't be allowing powers/spells from items higher than ECL... This is completely unacceptable for reasons I already explained in a lengthy post when I opened the Blackmarket. Low level characters are just not supposed to have expendable items 6 levels higher than their ECL. And I don't want to begin to remind you of the importance of balance in the CoCo.
spasheridan 04-29-05, 05:54 PM	As for charging credits for all non-minimum level items (powerstones, potions) etc, I think that penalizes unduly those who may not have the time to earn lots of credits. Well, the point of the blackmarket is that under "core" rules the only magic items available are the ones listed in the DMG. If you want a headband of intelect +3, well.. sorry, not core. I think with that rule in place it's just as easy to say "scroll of magic missile CL 5? Sorry, not core". 1 credit does take a while to earn. It's hard to imagine wasting 2 hours of my life on a single scroll. I would much rather spend them on craftin higher ECL gladiators and plopping them in full formed. I think with this rule you would see almost all of the 1 shot stones / scrolls leave the arena. The only problem with this is that all Psionics are based around the concept of scalability. Sure, Energy Ray is a lvl 1 power... but there's never a power later on that does the same thing as energy ray. Whereas magic has redundancy built in, so you get upgraded versions as you progress in levels. The spell names change, but the attack type and the lack of save or type of save is repeated again and again.You have a point here, but if we apply it to wizards as well it's a fairly even ban. This will bring scrolls / stones back to being usefull items for utility spells (invisibility, shield, darkvision) and leave all of the nuke spells (fireball, magic missile) to be cast from memory. For those who propose a 1/2 rule over 1/3, I need to tell you that Ashenai and I carefully considered the amount of restriction for casters (incl manifesters). We both agreed without a doubt that 1/2 would not be enough; we were even closer to 1/4 than 1/2.Where is this Asheni person? I've heard his name before but I don't think I've seen him in a while! I have not seen the old arena, but I can imagine that magic types win in higher levels considering how they win almost all the fights now. My main point thought on this was for psionics, and the PP restriction is huge for them considering how augmentation works. Back to the original comment on energy ray.. there is one thing to consider: Lesser sphere of protection (all 1st-3rd level spells) would be a good defense, don't you thinkg?
Jindl 04-29-05, 06:13 PM	Back to the original comment on energy ray.. there is one thing to consider: Lesser sphere of protection (all 1st-3rd level spells) would be a good defense, don't you thinkg? Sure, but not until ECL7 when you can cast it (or ECL5 when you can pay 700 gp for a scroll of it, or ECL 3 when you can pay 700 gp and a credit for it). The protection costs MUCH more than the attack. And if your opponent knows the protection is in place, he may not even make the attack (cost to the defender = 700 gp, cost to the attacker = 0 gp.) -Jindl
Caterane 04-29-05, 06:29 PM	Back to the original comment on energy ray.. there is one thing to consider: Lesser sphere of protection (all 1st-3rd level spells) would be a good defense, don't you thinkg? It's Lesser Glove of Invulnerability and lasts only 1 round per level. Well, the new scaling in level rule would even be beneficial for psionics as the lvl 1 energy ray would be a 4th level power at ML 7 and breach the globe. As Jindl said, it's either 700 gp or 4 spell levels, and the psion doesn't manifest energy ray in that case. As for charging credits for all non-minimum level items (powerstones, potions) etc, I think that penalizes unduly those who may not have the time to earn lots of credits. That's a small bonus option for those who contribute and keep this place alive. No one can rely on such items for a long time though unless he moderates a lot and then... well why not. The difference won't be that big. Btw, a headband+3 is core. Rules for custom items are in the DMG.
Jindl 04-29-05, 06:30 PM	I just wanted to respond to a couple of ideas I see floating around (:D): Personally, I disagree with this proposal. Psionics is a pretty heavy money-sink as it is now, but managable. Right now, if a psion starting out wants to be able to use a vigor (ML 5), a force screen (ML1, but may need more then one, x2 for this case), an inertial armor (ML1, but may need more then one, x2 for this case), and maybe some energy rays (ML 5, lets say 2 for this case), he's looking at spending 475gp. If he loses the fight, that's -175gp... so obviously he has to be sparing with his money and watch what he uses. If we used the new system, his cost would go up to 375x3+100 = 1225gp ... so even if he were to win in that situation, he'd lose money. But Salzorin, a psion who used all of those resources is darn near guaranteed to win the fight. He would have +25 hps, +8 ac (assuming it was inertial armor and force screen, since inertial armor has a duration of hours), and 2 ranged touch attacks for 5d6+5 damage. How can his opponent compete with him if he expends all of those resources? Actually, it just proves our point: That psionic classes should have to pay more money for the resources they are using which "guarantee" a win. That just seems too high priced. And a psionic charcter, with the current 1/3rd rule is FORCED to use powers from stones. In example, I've got a ECL 3 Githzerai Wilder I've been planning out. He starts with one level in wilder. He can only use 1PP in a fight in the arena. He HAS to use stones, he has no other option. Compare that to the githzerai mage at that level, who can cast 1 spell and has to use scrolls. And we've already established that under the current system powerstones >> scrolls. -Jindl
Jindl 04-29-05, 06:33 PM	It's Lesser Glove of Invulnerability and lasts only 1 round per level. Well, the new scaling in level rule would even be beneficial for psionics as the lvl 1 energy ray would be a 4th level power at ML 7 and breach the globe. As Jindl said, it's either 700 gp or 4 spell levels, and the psion doesn't manifest energy ray in that case. Actually, it wouldn't breach the globe. The scaling in power level only effects the cost of the item. It's still a 1st level power for all effects, including Concentration DC's, saving throw DC's, ability to bypass the globe of invulnerability, etc. That's the way Dorje's are written up now, and I didn't think you intended to go beyond that. -Jindl
Jindl 04-29-05, 06:35 PM	Btw, a headband+3 is core. Rules for custom items are in the DMG. Not really (although this isn't the place for this discussion). The Core rules (and guidelines from the sages) suggest that ability score boosting items be limited to even numbered bonuses (with the exception of items that grant inherent bonuses). However, that isn't pertinent to this discussion (and is not something I see breaking the CoCo at the moment.) -Jindl
Caterane 04-29-05, 06:37 PM	"you have to pay [...] as if the power was" Ok, sounds clear enough.
spasheridan 04-29-05, 06:48 PM	But Salzorin, a psion who used all of those resources is darn near guaranteed to win the fight. He would have +25 hps, +8 ac (assuming it was inertial armor and force screen, since inertial armor has a duration of hours), and 2 ranged touch attacks for 5d6+5 damage. How can his opponent compete with him if he expends all of those resources? Actually, it just proves our point: That psionic classes should have to pay more money for the resources they are using which "guarantee" a win.OR, the "normal" PC can spend 300 gp on a potion of invis and 250 gp on a potion of enlarge person. THen sneak up on his opponent and grapple death! I believe that many of our non-magic PC's have shown the usefullness of: Potions of protection from (alignment) Potions of Fly Potions of Invisibility Potions of Enlarge Person Whip Tokens Elixers of Fire Breath So, Jindl, how do you feel about keeping the price the same but making all stones/scrolls with Cl higher than the minimum cost +1 CR? And I really do feel that if we make this nerf to stones then it MUST be done to scrolls as well.
Salzorin 04-29-05, 06:49 PM	@Cat: I wasn't saying that we should get rid of an ECL restriction. I was saying that we shouldn't be allowing ECL+2. I think we should only allow items up to ECL in level.
Megrim_Lord 04-29-05, 06:51 PM	I have a few comments about the idea: Scaling and PP / day: Each wizard spell is cast at full caster level. So 3 10d6 fireballs cost 9 spell levels, but 3 10d6 energy balls costs 30 PP. 30 PP is much costlier than 9 spell levels. For example, my 5th level psion has 14 PP usuable in each battle. That's 2 max spells (5 PP) and 1 augemented (4pp). Consider a 5th level evoker with a 22 int (just like Legion). 6 1st +5 2nd +3 3rd spells makes it 25 spell levels or 9 spell levels a fight. Thats all 3 3rd level spells, or 2 3rd and 3 5th level magic missiles. For a psion's powers to be usefull they tend to need to be augmented to max. Therefore Legion picks a handful of powers (vigor, precog-offense, precof-defense) to come from stones. THe next step in my battle is to zap with my own powers. THEN, to finish it off, I need to rely on stones again because I'm out of PP. Resource Restriction: Maybe the overuse of powerstones comes from a lack of PP to be used in the arena. Remember, in a party of 4 the big guns will hang back and use little or no resources in a fight or 2 each day (the low CR ones) to make sure the high CR encounters are taken down quickly. Maybe a better analysis would be 1/2 PP & spell levels a day to show that you would generaly only have a single tough fight a day and a battle in the arena is about as tough as it comes. a level 3 PC is a CR 3 encounter, which is supposed to use up 25% of the resources of a party of 4.. so a single PC would use 100% of their resources to deal with it. Cost/Benefit Finally, I believe your analysis of costs: benefit is a bit off. Consider how tough it is to use dispel magic vs a bunch of 1st level (even augmented to 20 PP) powers. Vs that the money is just thrown away. Also, if you as a PC rely on 1 shot items then you've used them in every battle. WHile 1000 gp/ fight seems like chump change, the fact is that it will add up over time. My Conclusion: All that aside, I have always felt that 1 shot items are a bit overcharged in this kind of environment. They are vital for a PC who is severly restricted in their PP a day. IF a change is to be made, I suggest: 1) Alter resources a day allowed to 1/2 instead of 1/3. 2) I feel a better change would be to return items to their "core" setting. All stones / scrolls / tattoos are sold at standard MINIMUM CL. Any item purchased above that minimum CL must be purchased through the blackmarket. 2b)Scroll & Stone making feats will now become even more desirable, so let's restrict that to a single scroll (3 spells) or stone (3 powers) a day, no matter what the cost. I agree completely, which is to say I disagree with the proposal. psions are already nerfed so bad by the COCO rules that it isn't worth playing them without lots of one shot use items, and increasing the costs will make it disgustingly impossible. Psions don't have nearly enough PP per fight to match with wizards or other primary casters, and their hp suck just as much so they can't survive damage intensive characters either. There may be a way to stop the unfairness of some of the aspects of psionics, but your proposal is the wrong way, and I'll be yelling at you for months if you follow through, and believe me, it will get annoying :D :mad: :angel: :devil: :rant: :tantrum:
Caterane 04-29-05, 06:54 PM	I agree completely, which is to say I disagree with the proposal. psions are already nerfed so bad by the COCO rules that it isn't worth playing them without lots of one shot use items, and increasing the costs will make it disgustingly impossible. Psions don't have nearly enough PP per fight to match with wizards or other primary casters, and their hp suck just as much so they can't survive damage intensive characters either. There may be a way to stop the unfairness of some of the aspects of psionics, but your proposal is the wrong way, and I'll be yelling at you for months if you follow through, and believe me, it will get annoying :D :mad: :angel: :devil: :rant: :tantrum: Your assessment is definately not backed up by the reality on the roster. In all regards. @Spash: Invisibility -> Touchsight. Almost same price.
Megrim_Lord 04-29-05, 06:57 PM	Your assessment is definately not backed up by the reality on the roster. In all regards. @Spash: Invisibility -> Touchsight. Almost same price. I was ranting, should I care? :D
Sindorin 04-29-05, 06:59 PM	@Spash: Invisibility -> Touchsight. Almost same price. I like touchsight, mainly because it can replace the need for a spot check, which we do have a few characters that rely on hiding and sniping. The only problem with Touchsight is that, augmented, it is only 60 ft, but I suppose that is still better than being sniped at.
spasheridan 04-29-05, 07:09 PM	@Spash: Invisibility -> Touchsight. Almost same price.Anyone can use Invisbility Potion(300 gp), only Psions can use Touchsight Stone(375 gp) unless it's a tattoo for 750 GP, which is MUCH costlier. Then again, a scroll of Invisibility is 150 GP, which is less than half the price of a stone of touchsite. *quibble quibble*
Jindl 04-29-05, 07:27 PM	So, Jindl, how do you feel about keeping the price the same but making all stones/scrolls with Cl higher than the minimum cost +1 CR? And I really do feel that if we make this nerf to stones then it MUST be done to scrolls as well. I think its ridiculous. Under the core rules, PC's are supposed to be able to buy any item within the gp limit of the settlement they are in. That usually equates to a gp limit of a several hundred to several thousand gp. How do you explain that you can't find a 125 gp CL5 scroll of magic missile as a 3rd level character, but you can find a +1 mithril shirt worth 2100 gp, or a brooch of shielding worth 1500 gp. I accept the ECL+2 limitation as a way to keep the CoCo setting operating correctly, even though it is a deviation from the Core rules. But restricting to minimum caster level is, IMO, totally inaccurate to a real campaign and completely unnecessary in this setting. You do realize that you have to pay the blackmarket to craft items too, right?
Salzorin 04-29-05, 07:30 PM	I'm just curious as to why we set the limit at ECL+2?... I think that if the limit were ECL, we might not be having this discussion at all... since there would be no ML5 energy rays/powerstones at ECL 3... only ML3 or lower... then we're only talkin' about a guy getting 15 HP's for a cheap price instead of 25 for only 50gp more....
Jindl 04-29-05, 07:30 PM	Anyone can use Invisbility Potion(300 gp), only Psions can use Touchsight Stone(375 gp) unless it's a tattoo for 750 GP, which is MUCH costlier. Then again, a scroll of Invisibility is 150 GP, which is less than half the price of a stone of touchsite. *quibble quibble* Yes, but invisibility is good for only a single attack, while touchsight has a duration of minutes... And since psions can put their hps into the stratosphere with vigor, they really don't fear the single attack that much. Heck, as a psion I would rather buff with +60 hps from a 300 gp powerstone of vigor, then bait my invisible opponent to attack and so end his invisibility, as opposed to spending 375 gp on a touchsight powerstone. -Jindl
Caterane 04-29-05, 07:38 PM	I'm just curious as to why we set the limit at ECL+2?... I think that if the limit were ECL, we might not be having this discussion at all... since there would be no ML5 energy rays/powerstones at ECL 3... only ML3 or lower... then we're only talkin' about a guy getting 15 HP's for a cheap price instead of 25 for only 50gp more.... ONLY 15 hp for the 10 hp guy? That's an increase of 150%. And what about the level 10 guy with +50 hp for 250 gp? And what if those two guys just renew their vigor once their extra hp are used up? ECL+2 because scrolls that are slightly higher in level are not uncommon in a campaign. Beyond that it becomes rarer (but still possible hence the credit cost).
Jindl 04-29-05, 07:38 PM	I'm just curious as to why we set the limit at ECL+2?... I think that if the limit were ECL, we might not be having this discussion at all... since there would be no ML5 energy rays/powerstones at ECL 3... only ML3 or lower... then we're only talkin' about a guy getting 15 HP's for a cheap price instead of 25 for only 50gp more.... See my example before about how do you explain that the wizard can't buy a CL5 scroll: magic missile for 125 gp, but the fighter can buy a +1 mithril chain shirt for 2100 gp or a brooch of shielding for 1500 gp. In a real campaign, characters can easily by scrolls at a higher caster level if your DM follows the Core rules for gp limit on purchases depending on settlement size. That's why they have rules for mishaps on scrolls and brainburn on powerstones. With this understanding, the leadership wanted to continue to allow PC's access to higher level scrolls/stones (in the spirit of the Core rules), but needed to restrict them to try and make fights enjoyable and fair. I had suggested ECL+4 (mostly from a wizards point of view), but the end result was ECL+2.
spasheridan 04-29-05, 07:41 PM	I think its ridiculous. Under the core rules, PC's are supposed to be able to buy any item within the gp limit of the settlement they are in. That usually equates to a gp limit of a several hundred to several thousand gp. How do you explain that you can't find a 125 gp CL5 scroll of magic missile as a 3rd level character, but you can find a +1 mithril shirt worth 2100 gp, or a brooch of shielding worth 1500 gp. Interesting. SO, picking up a belt of dex +2 (for core price via custm magic item rules) costs a CR because it's CUSTUM. BUT,picking up a level 5 scroll of magic missile (cost determined by custum magic item rules) shouldn't cost a CR because it's CUSTUM? SO, I have to spend 1 CR to buy a potion of CLW (CL2) but I don't have to spend the CR to purchase the scroll of CLW (CL2)? I accept the ECL+2 limitation as a way to keep the CoCo setting operating correctly, even though it is a deviation from the Core rules. But restricting to minimum caster level is, IMO, totally inaccurate to a real campaign and completely unnecessary in this setting. You do realize that you have to pay the blackmarket to craft items too, right? Completely unnecesary? You agree completly that power stones are overpowerd but you disagree and find ludacris that we should apply the same nerf to scrolls? I would imagine with the points raised earlier of the uber power of casters that any nerf to casters and their single shot items would be a blessing. IMO there may be people willing to spend 500 GP for a 1 shot nuke, but will there be people willing to spend 150gp & a CR for a 1 shot nuke besides the 2 or 3 top CR earners?
Caterane 04-29-05, 07:52 PM	Interesting. SO, picking up a belt of dex +2 (for core price via custm magic item rules) costs a CR because it's CUSTUM. BUT,picking up a level 5 scroll of magic missile (cost determined by custum magic item rules) shouldn't cost a CR because it's CUSTUM? Custom items did not exist until of late. They are a small bonus for credit earners, not something you can rely on. Scrolls on the other hand have been here from the beginning on. It's also much more likely to find gloves of dex, or magic missile scrolls in a campaign, than to find a belt of dex. Therefore: custom. SO, I have to spend 1 CR to buy a potion of CLW (CL2) but I don't have to spend the CR to purchase the scroll of CLW (CL2)? Yup. And at level 3 you have to spend 1° for a CL 20 potion, but 9° for a CL 20 scroll.
spasheridan 04-29-05, 08:01 PM	They are a small bonus for credit earners, not something you can rely on. Scrolls on the other hand have been here from the beginning on. It's also much more likely to find gloves of dex, or magic missile scrolls in a campaign, than to find a belt of dex. Therefore: custom. For the same reason that gloves of dex are more common then belts of dex, a scroll of Magic MIssile (CL1) is more common than a scroll of Magic Missile (cl5). Because they are custom. When I look at the lised magic items in the DMG I see Magic Missile (cl1). I don't see any Magic Missile (cl 5) entry. Custom costs a credit.
Jindl 04-29-05, 08:14 PM	For the same reason that gloves of dex are more common then belts of dex, a scroll of Magic MIssile (CL1) is more common than a scroll of Magic Missile (cl5). Because they are custom. When I look at the lised magic items in the DMG I see Magic Missile (cl1). I don't see any Magic Missile (cl 5) entry. Custom costs a credit. A CL5 scroll: magic missile is not a custom item. You assume it is because you don't see it in the list of scrolls in the DMG, but did you really expect them to list every single scalable spell at every single caster level? Of course not. A Belt of Dex +2 is a completely custom item that has to be priced from scratch (and costs more than gloves of dex +2 because of the slot affinity). Custom means it is not a standard item in a normal campaign. A scroll with higher than the minimum CL is a pretty standard item. A dex boosting wondrous item that uses a different body slot is not. You also seem to be overlooking the fact that the reason Cat proposed this change was to bring powerstones in line with scrolls. Your logic is that if we "nerf" powerstones, then we should do the same with scrolls. But if the purpose of the "nerf" is to make powerstones appropriate in power to scrolls, how can "nerfing" both accomplish this?
spasheridan 04-29-05, 08:28 PM	You also seem to be overlooking the fact that the reason Cat proposed this change was to bring powerstones in line with scrolls. Your logic is that if we "nerf" powerstones, then we should do the same with scrolls. But if the purpose of the "nerf" is to make powerstones appropriate in power to scrolls, how can "nerfing" both accomplish this?Cat mentioned 2 powers, Energy Ray and Vigor. If, by showing these 2 powers are broken, we can now nerf all power stones, then we can just as easily nerf all scrolls. If you force me to pick 2 spells that are broken I will, but do I really need to? My logic is, and has been, that 1 shot items are not a test of a build. My logic, and has been, is that 1 shot items are to powerful in an arena because the gladiators know BEFOREHAND what circumstances the fight will occur under and so gladiators can purchase perfect scrolls for combat. Cat's logic (and Asheni's) has been that casters in general are overpowered in the arena and has slapped the 1/3 spells per day on them in the arena. Scrolls (and powerstones) are a way AROUND this restriction, and therefore should be slapped with the same nerf stick that spells per day were. FINALLY, my logic is that this is the CORE arena. It is MORE core to say that scrolls and stones are available at minimum CR (the only offering listed in the DMG) then it is to say that powerstones now cost more than the core rules specify.
Jindl 04-29-05, 09:11 PM	Heh, take it easy bud. Nobody is trying to pick a fight here. :D I'm just trying to explain how the logic I used to come to my conclusion was different than the logic you applied. Cat mentioned 2 powers, Energy Ray and Vigor. If, by showing these 2 powers are broken, we can now nerf all power stones, then we can just as easily nerf all scrolls. If you force me to pick 2 spells that are broken I will, but do I really need to? You'll note that the proposed change only affects powers that augment, and they all use essentially the same mechanic, namely that +1 pp = +1d6 damage w/ a cap of 20d6 (or higher) and that each +2d6 = +1 DC (if it allows a save). Very few spells use an equivalent mechanic, and those that do are high level (such as polar ray). It's not just vigor and energy ray that are broken at these prices, but many other powers as well that are currently underpriced. My logic is, and has been, that 1 shot items are not a test of a build. My logic, and has been, is that 1 shot items are to powerful in an arena because the gladiators know BEFOREHAND what circumstances the fight will occur under and so gladiators can purchase perfect scrolls for combat. I agree that 1 shots are more powerful in the arena setting. However, you must realize that they are a lot less important now than they were in the previous incarnation, where gladiators advanced a level after each win. As for one shots being a test of a build, I disagree somewhat. There are plenty of builds that utilize UMD, and for those builds the ability to tap into one-shots is a major strength of the build. Other builds, like sorcerors and wilders, require the use of one shots to show the true strength of the build, as these classes otherwise lack versatility. Use of one shots is necessary for these builds and balancing the use of one shots is part of testing the build. Cat's logic (and Asheni's) has been that casters in general are overpowered in the arena and has slapped the 1/3 spells per day on them in the arena. Scrolls (and powerstones) are a way AROUND this restriction, and therefore should be slapped with the same nerf stick that spells per day were. Cat's logic was generally supported by the old arena. It wasn't as bad as he makes out (there were actually a number of very successful noncasters, including Kage Nightwind, Rhoar, and Oetzi), but spellcasters did make up the vast majority of the high level builds. The 1/3rd basis came from the idea that an adventurer should face 3 encounters per day, an idea that was drawn from the Core rules. Now I'm not saying I agree 100% with the 1/3rd rule. I think 1/2 could work as well. I'm just explaining that Cat had a strong rationale for making the decision to go with a 1/3rd rule. FINALLY, my logic is that this is the CORE arena. It is MORE core to say that scrolls and stones are available at minimum CR (the only offering listed in the DMG) then it is to say that powerstones now cost more than the core rules specify. The Core rules certainly are not perfect. In this case, Cat has pointed out an significant inconsistency in the way that dorjes are priced compared to powerstones/tattoos. He presented 2 methods of dealing with that inconsistency (on the Violations thread), and has proposed the second method because he thinks it will be better for the CoCo. Adjusting all scrolls to be at minimum CL unless you pay lots of credits is not better for the CoCo. -Jindl
spasheridan 04-29-05, 11:48 PM	You'll note that the proposed change only affects powers that augment, and they all use essentially the same mechanic, namely that +1 pp = +1d6 damage w/ a cap of 20d6 (or higher) and that each +2d6 = +1 DC (if it allows a save). Very few spells use an equivalent mechanic, and those that do are high level (such as polar ray). It's not just vigor and energy ray that are broken at these prices, but many other powers as well that are currently underpriced.My fix does it as well, by saying that the only things on the shelf are stones / tattoos / scrolls of minimum caster level. If you want something at a higher caster level you have to get it custom made and it'll cost you(CR, not GP). Yeah, it's available... but it's harder to get. The GP value stays the same as the core rules but the availability becomes scarce. I apply this to scrolls as well because it seems fair. I agree that 1 shots are more powerful in the arena setting. However, you must realize that they are a lot less important now than they were in the previous incarnation, where gladiators advanced a level after each win. As for one shots being a test of a build, I disagree somewhat. There are plenty of builds that utilize UMD, and for those builds the ability to tap into one-shots is a major strength of the build. Other builds, like sorcerors and wilders, require the use of one shots to show the true strength of the build, as these classes otherwise lack versatility. Use of one shots is necessary for these builds and balancing the use of one shots is part of testing the build.I'm not sure I buy this argument. Builds are optimized for the arena (see how elves / humans are the common favored enemy of rangers instead of say goblinoids or magical beasts?) and thus these optimized builds rely on the specialized subset of opponents and conditions of the arena. 1-shots builds just take advantage of guarented cash per fight and a limited # of enviroments and opponents so they can cherry pick 1 shot items. A sorcerer / wilder has their "lack of versititly" built into their class as a drawback to their other advantages. UMD is cute, but what will it be used on? CL9 magic missiles? More like CL7 improved invis and wands of enervation or wands of ray of frost. The most likely targets of UMD are minimum CL scrolls, so under my system those scrolls are "normal" price. A custom wand is a custom wand, but most UMD builds wouldn't use a custom wand, they would use a standard wand. Cat's logic was generally supported by the old arena. It wasn't as bad as he makes out (there were actually a number of very successful noncasters, including Kage Nightwind, Rhoar, and Oetzi), but spellcasters did make up the vast majority of the high level builds. The 1/3rd basis came from the idea that an adventurer should face 3 encounters per day, an idea that was drawn from the Core rules. Now I'm not saying I agree 100% with the 1/3rd rule. I think 1/2 could work as well. I'm just explaining that Cat had a strong rationale for making the decision to go with a 1/3rd rule.I'm torn on this, the 1/3rd or 1/2 rule, but agree that this is not the place for this change. The Core rules certainly are not perfect. In this case, Cat has pointed out an significant inconsistency in the way that dorjes are priced compared to powerstones/tattoos. He presented 2 methods of dealing with that inconsistency (on the Violations thread), and has proposed the second method because he thinks it will be better for the CoCo. Adjusting all scrolls to be at minimum CL unless you pay lots of credits is not better for the CoCo. I agree that this rule (also found under psi-crowns) for Dorje's is a bit weird. It has a lot to do with the way in which some powers augment. A wand of fireballs (cl 20) is still reflex DC 14 while a dorje of energyball (ml 20) is at least DC 21. But a dorje of energy balls (ml20) would cost a CR to get just like a wand of magic missiles (cl9) would costs to get... because it's custom. In any event, this change to pricing was added to Psi-crowns & Dorjes, not powerstones or tattoos. This was a concious choice by the Psionics folks. Changing the pricing of stones for this is a bit of a stretch, and it shows: 1) THe overall strength of 1 shot items in this arena. 2) A mild anti-psychic sentiment (which I hold as well, but am lovingly taking advantage of) IMO a better solution to this problem is to concentrate on aspect #1, the overall strength of 1 shot items in this arena and take this opportunity to make a fix to all of them. At the end of the day the only differance between my idea and cat's is that we would see much fewer CL 9 magic missile scrolls as well as seeing much less ML 6 vigor stones. I can't see how keeping CL 9 magic missile scrolls in the arena is vital to balance? Anywho, that's my proposal. Maybe we should give the rest of the folks a chance to chat about it for a while and see how everyone else thinks. :D
cellardweller 04-30-05, 05:00 AM	Most of what I have to say has already been said by others so I won't droll on, suffice to say that I agree with the proposal. I would also add that AC/SM/SNA is probably the best power/spell with which to draw comparisons.
TaggIIV 04-30-05, 10:15 AM	I'm not sure I buy this argument. Builds are optimized for the arena (see how elves / humans are the common favored enemy of rangers instead of say goblinoids or magical beasts?) and thus these optimized builds rely on the specialized subset of opponents and conditions of the arena. 1-shots builds just take advantage of guarented cash per fight and a limited # of enviroments and opponents so they can cherry pick 1 shot items. Well, I don't know how others feel but honestly, the COCO does not seem like a very good environment to test builds for other games. Most games face a bunch of different monsters, and such, etc. while COCO is pvp. Most games have an almost completely opposite environment to what is presented here. Quests as exception, but what character simply goes on quest after quest? (I suppose its an idea, but it still consumes a lot of credits.) If it was such a good test environment, how come only certain classes have a chance? There is certainly no test for aid builds (ie bard, healer) - while they will bomb here, the build is a very important and crucial one in a regular game. That said, I have always looked at the COCO as a game with a unique environment (one of the appeals, I suppose), not as a testing ground. So yes, for me at least and I think for many, the builds are always designed to fare well in the arena environment. *** About the main topic: I think the proposal of scaling powerstone price with pp spent is a fair idea. Psions when manifesting normally pay pp equal to the correct amount for a higher level power which means manifest per cast psions are equal to wizards. But when it comes to expendables, as is, wizards get the short end of the stick. This would solve that and help even things out. I know for Gatekeeper, I would like to manifest my own powers (and I think in both tactics so far I have called for use for all of my pp - though lucky energy ray stones have prevented them from being needed) but i only get 7pp. For a level 3 with 18 Int that is pretty heinous. (hey, id rather not spend the money either but I'm forced to do that unless I want to try my luck with a crossbow...) This goes back to my first paragraph - This is not a regular game, this is the COCO. A regular adventurer will face 3 encounters in a day. But encounters against goblins or kobolds or whatever. They're not facing 3 intelligent opponents of their same power. In a regular game, lets say the first encounter of the day is a very tough one that is avoiding the tank's sword and the only option is to use a magic missile or energy ray. But, the psion ran out of his 1/3 allotment, and will not dare tap into his other pp because he might need them in his further encounters that day. He would rather die now than tap into his reserve for later. Is this true? Of course not! But that is what we are forcing on casters in the COCO with the 1/3 rule. The 1/3 rule is *very* restricting. I definitely think it should be lifted, or at least lightened, especially if this powerstone-price scaling is to go through Bottom Line - Powerstone prices should be scaled as scrolls are. - Max ML/CL should remain ECL+2, with the blackmarket for credit-purchased higher spells. This works and is fine. - 1/3 rule should be lifted to 1/2
xanadu 04-30-05, 01:52 PM	I'm not sure which option is the best as they both have problems. I do think that powerstones, dorje's, etc., should all have the same pricing mechanic with regards to caster level. I agree that casters resort to consumables because of the 1/3 rule. But even with 1/2 or full they will still use ECL+2 energy ray stones, just not as much. As it a non psionic straight melee has a difficult time competing. I dont think banning higher level scroll/stones is the answer or is realistic. If a DM annoyingly makes every magic missile scroll caster level 1, it is really not that difficult to pay someone to write a CL 5,7, or 9. Either the DM agrees or I find a DM with more variation and imagination. I like psionics but there are a few things the designers needed to think harder about. First is the easy availablity of target range=you powers to everyone via tattoos and stones. The spell shield is inaccessible to virtually every D & D charcter excepts wizards/sorcerers...one can't have a potion of shield. Yet, every psionic charcter in the arena fights with force screen; that 4 extra AC makes a tremendous difference at low levels. 2nd are the high level augmented powers masquerading as low level. Cat's #2 proposal strikes me as reasonable, but I would think that if the power is being treated as a higher level for pricing effects, it should be treated as a higher level power for all effects for consistency's sake. If this is not the case, then an added percentage cost might be better because you aren't getting what you pay for.
Cerebus13 04-30-05, 02:43 PM	Well it seems we've all voiced a varied amount of opinions on this matter. So perhaps we should work out what all of the options are and then have the community vote on what they like the best. The final decision would be up to the rules council, but input from the players on what they do and do not like could help. Options I've seen: 1) Change nothing 2) Cat's proposal of scaling pricing for Power Stones 3) Limit purchase of consumable items to base CL/ML, anything else is custom and costs credits. 4) Limit purchase of consumable items where ECL = CL/ML 5) Raise limitation on PP usage for psionic characters to 1/2 ...and probably more. Of course some people have proposed combinations of various options discussed (like Cat's proposal along with raising the 1/3rd limit to 1/2 for psionics) so a poll based on all of this would be hard....but we need to move towards some decision that people like. So, are there any other options people would like to suggest? And...which one(s) do you like best?
Sindorin 04-30-05, 03:13 PM	Well, saying this feels kind of hypocritical, but someone probably needs to pipe up and say it - psionics is too flawed to stand next to Core material. Maybe we should consider giving it a break for a while. I know it is in the SRD and all, and I really do enjoy using it. Sadly, though, all it seems to do is cause problems.
Malither76 05-01-05, 05:52 PM	I thinks energy ray and vigor are both broke myself, we could just ban those 2 powers, at least from being crafted in items, like stones just ban them as stones if the user knows the power and spends his own power points I don't have a problem with it.
Micael 05-02-05, 05:37 AM	Hi, I just want to point out, that your basis (change rules to something like dorjes and psicrowns) is debatable. One year ago there was a discussion regarding the examples of the augmentation limits from psicrowns and dorjes: Please look into the exp.psihbk. Its not possible to augment dorjes and psicrowns as high as you want and just pay the price (p.168). But the examples for creating psicrowns and dorjes are confusing, since they donīt take the limit of 5 levels higher in account (p-181). So what rule should be used? Page 168 or 181 or a compromise? The result of this discussion was: You only have to pay extra (for higher powerlevel- higher manifesterlevel you have to always pay for), if you want to augment higher then the maximum allowed (5 over minimumlevel of 8 for psicrowns- 5 over minimum manifester level of dorjes) see p.168+181 exp.psihbk. Its in line with the rule for powerstones and tattoes: You could only create level 3 powerstones as maximum with minimum manifester level. The rule said nothing about the cost, if you want to augment the powers. So you could easily use the same rule as dorjes and psicrowns, since they should be an cheaper solution to charged powers then powerstones and tattoes. Best regards Andre
Pittbull 05-02-05, 04:25 PM	After reading the whole stuff, I state,that I support CAT's proposal, in favor of bringing balance to the CoCo. -Pittbull
Megrim_Lord 05-02-05, 04:45 PM	Well it seems we've all voiced a varied amount of opinions on this matter. So perhaps we should work out what all of the options are and then have the community vote on what they like the best. The final decision would be up to the rules council, but input from the players on what they do and do not like could help. Options I've seen: 1) Change nothing 2) Cat's proposal of scaling pricing for Power Stones 3) Limit purchase of consumable items to base CL/ML, anything else is custom and costs credits. 4) Limit purchase of consumable items where ECL = CL/ML 5) Raise limitation on PP usage for psionic characters to 1/2 ...and probably more. Of course some people have proposed combinations of various options discussed (like Cat's proposal along with raising the 1/3rd limit to 1/2 for psionics) so a poll based on all of this would be hard....but we need to move towards some decision that people like. So, are there any other options people would like to suggest? And...which one(s) do you like best? both 3 and 5 together seem reasonable to me, though 1 is my favorite... final vote 3 & 5
Megrim_Lord 05-02-05, 04:47 PM	As it a non psionic straight melee has a difficult time competing. Trokk PwNs J00 :D
Megrim_Lord 05-02-05, 04:53 PM	Well, I don't know how others feel but honestly, the COCO does not seem like a very good environment to test builds for other games. Most games face a bunch of different monsters, and such, etc. while COCO is pvp. Most games have an almost completely opposite environment to what is presented here. Quests as exception, but what character simply goes on quest after quest? (I suppose its an idea, but it still consumes a lot of credits.) If it was such a good test environment, how come only certain classes have a chance? There is certainly no test for aid builds (ie bard, healer) - while they will bomb here, the build is a very important and crucial one in a regular game. That said, I have always looked at the COCO as a game with a unique environment (one of the appeals, I suppose), not as a testing ground. So yes, for me at least and I think for many, the builds are always designed to fare well in the arena environment. *** About the main topic: I think the proposal of scaling powerstone price with pp spent is a fair idea. Psions when manifesting normally pay pp equal to the correct amount for a higher level power which means manifest per cast psions are equal to wizards. But when it comes to expendables, as is, wizards get the short end of the stick. This would solve that and help even things out. I know for Gatekeeper, I would like to manifest my own powers (and I think in both tactics so far I have called for use for all of my pp - though lucky energy ray stones have prevented them from being needed) but i only get 7pp. For a level 3 with 18 Int that is pretty heinous. (hey, id rather not spend the money either but I'm forced to do that unless I want to try my luck with a crossbow...) This goes back to my first paragraph - This is not a regular game, this is the COCO. A regular adventurer will face 3 encounters in a day. But encounters against goblins or kobolds or whatever. They're not facing 3 intelligent opponents of their same power. In a regular game, lets say the first encounter of the day is a very tough one that is avoiding the tank's sword and the only option is to use a magic missile or energy ray. But, the psion ran out of his 1/3 allotment, and will not dare tap into his other pp because he might need them in his further encounters that day. He would rather die now than tap into his reserve for later. Is this true? Of course not! But that is what we are forcing on casters in the COCO with the 1/3 rule. The 1/3 rule is *very* restricting. I definitely think it should be lifted, or at least lightened, especially if this powerstone-price scaling is to go through Bottom Line - Powerstone prices should be scaled as scrolls are. - Max ML/CL should remain ECL+2, with the blackmarket for credit-purchased higher spells. This works and is fine. - 1/3 rule should be lifted to 1/2 I agree with everything you just said, I'm almost even starting to somewhat kind of maybe agree possibly with the idea of the scaling.
spasheridan 05-02-05, 06:55 PM	Well. I was hoping that we would have come to a general agreement on disabling all 1-shot items. Resricting this rule to only psionic items is a fairly one-sided swipe at psychic power. While I see the point that 250 gp for 10d6+6 ranged touch / no save (short range) is cheap, 225 gp for 5d4+4 auto-hit / no save (long range) is very similar. Combined with the way that magic spells scale, this is a big win for spell casters vs psychic players.
Malither76 05-02-05, 07:22 PM	not realy there is no magical item that absorbs the energy ray. like a broach of shieilding or even a shield spell would stop the missiles
spasheridan 05-02-05, 07:35 PM	We can nit pick about how much better X or Y is than Z or Q all day, and weather or not N is a decent counter to Y or Q.. but that's neither here nor there. BUT, let's face it, if every wizard can force you to spend 1500 gp by holding a 200 gp scroll, you loose 1300gp. Caterane chose the 2 most egregious examples of overpowered 1st level powers. And by using those 2 powers as ammunition Caterane forced the change on item pricing. So, spells like: Barksin Shield of Faith Greater Magic Weapon Which increase in value by caster level will be extremely cheap on scrolls but powers like: Greater Metaphyiscal Weapon Precog- Defense THicken Skin These powers will be prohibitivly expensive for psychic folks. They do the same thing, have the same effect, but one will be an order of magnitude more expensive to use at higher levels. All because of 2 powers, Vigor & Energy Ray.
Cerebus13 05-02-05, 07:52 PM	Dissipating Touch can also be a pretty disgusting bit of damage as well if you can get close enough to touch your opponent.
Megrim_Lord 05-02-05, 08:07 PM	We can nit pick about how much better X or Y is than Z or Q all day, and weather or not N is a decent counter to Y or Q.. but that's neither here nor there. BUT, let's face it, if every wizard can force you to spend 1500 gp by holding a 200 gp scroll, you loose 1300gp. Caterane chose the 2 most egregious examples of overpowered 1st level powers. And by using those 2 powers as ammunition Caterane forced the change on item pricing. So, spells like: Barksin Shield of Faith Greater Magic Weapon Which increase in value by caster level will be extremely cheap on scrolls but powers like: Greater Metaphyiscal Weapon Precog- Defense THicken Skin These powers will be prohibitivly expensive for psychic folks. They do the same thing, have the same effect, but one will be an order of magnitude more expensive to use at higher levels. All because of 2 powers, Vigor & Energy Ray. stop making better arguments for a differing side! if you keep this up my brain will explode and my lawyer will need to talk to your lawyer :D
Sunwolf 05-03-05, 04:10 PM	So the real issue seems to be powers that augment on a 1 <thing> per 1 power point basis, where <thing> is +5 hp, 1d6 damage, etc. So these are the powers which really need the adjustment to cost for +1 level for every 2 additional power points. -- like vigor, energy ray, dissipating touch, etc Powers that augment at a rate of 1 <thing> per 3(or higher) power points are more similar to existing magic effects -- like divine power, barkskin, greater magic weapon and probably can maintain their current pricing.
Salzorin 05-03-05, 04:26 PM	all of the d6 energy powers, regardless of what power level they start at, augment as 1d6 per extra PP spent... I'm not sure if any of the damage powers in psionics augment at anything higher then 1d per PP...
spasheridan 05-03-05, 04:50 PM	So the real issue seems to be powers that augment on a 1 <thing> per 1power point basis, where <thing> is +5 hp, 1d6 damage, etc.Like fireballs (leveld6 damage), lightning bolt (leveld6), or harm (level*10). That is not the issue with these powers damage, the issue is that the save DC increases. Even vigor is a decent trade, with a duration of minutes it's a perfect buff for fighting. So these are the powers which really need the adjustment to cost for+1 level for every 2 additional power points. -- like vigor, energy ray, dissipating touch, etc The problem is that the powers increase their save DC. Instead of having summon animal 1,2,3,...,9 there's just astral construct. Instead of having fireball and delayed blast fireball there's just energy ball. Augmenting powers is EXPENSIVE and the save DC's are the payoff that makes it worth it. Which is cute for manifesting (PP are a valuable resource) but a poor rule for powerstones (an ML10 energy ray stone costs 250 gp for 10d6+10 damage) Powers that augment at a rate of 1 <thing> per 3(or higher) power points are more similar to existing magic effects -- like divine power, barkskin, greater magic weapon and probably can maintain their current pricing.Picking and choosing which power costs what is a poor way to deal with it. Either one or 2 powers need to be banned (like Gate was) or a blanket rule needs to be established. Upping the price via augmentation keeps the more egregious abuses in line, but I feel.. well, you all know that already. SO, a new argument for all to hear. Duration of Buffs and the Arena. There are many buffs in the core rules that have short durations. In general a short term buff is extremely potent. Buffs with durations of rounds or minutes a level are almost universally powerful. The drawback of them is that they have short durations. In campaign play an intelligent opponent can outwait a round/level buff by withdrawing. Lowbies might taunt the players into wasting their buffs on the wrong opponent. In the arena, however, you know that your opponent is a powerful foe. You know that he cannot avoid you and outwait your buffs. This magnifies the short term buffs into extreme potency by removing all of their downsides. This reality increases the potency of 1-shot items even more.
SoulLord 05-13-05, 06:17 PM	Hi i dont have a character yet but ive been reading not only this but several of the threads. here are the things i like and i dont like psionics > always have banned them in the game 1/3 spells day rule> i guess If you must have it at least change it to 1/2 buying so many things > for starters i would limit it to ecl considering the coco but then again i thought the coco was about testing builds, with so many available things it seems to loose some of its charm. companions,familars,animals,henchmen > lets face it the arena should be a 1 on 1 battle not a 3-4 on 1 battle for the same reasons as above, whats to stop me from using a hecnchman, a familiar and animal companion and several war dogs. besides that i like the coco and have enjoyed some of the battles even though they seem to follow the same pattern, which i blame on the rampant magic buy.
Caterane 05-13-05, 07:34 PM	@Soullord: We've already limited the availability of certain items by having them cost credits. I can't see a way to limit magic items to ECL without making it too complicated. One example could be to limit the amount of expendables one can buy to XXXX gp per week but who's going to control that? 1v1 fights would become boring over time so we added allies which are limited to your ECL-2. So if you want to bring in what you listed, you need to be of high level. And campaigns don't consist of 1v1 battles. We've even added Team and Monster fights recently. Hey, why don't you make a character or two and give it a try. You can then give us a feedback, and perhaps you like it so much that you stay :)
Cerebus13 05-13-05, 07:36 PM	Hi i dont have a character yet but ive been reading not only this but several of the threads.Welcome!psionics > always have banned them in the gameIf they got rid of Psionics from the CoCo the finite number of builds available would be even smaller than it already is... I find it hard to start an ECL3 character now without feeling like I am stepping on someone else's toes and copying their build.1/3 spells day rule> i guess If you must have it at least change it to 1/2Without this limitation spell casters will rule the arena, no question. At higher ECL even with a 1/3rd limit they are very powerful.buying so many things > for starters i would limit it to ecl considering the coco but then again i thought the coco was about testing builds, with so many available things it seems to loose some of its charm.People are still divided on this issue but we're currently working out a discussion with new maps and types of battles.companions,familars,animals,henc hmen > lets face it the arena should be a 1 on 1 battle not a 3-4 on 1 battle for the same reasons as above, whats to stop me from using a hecnchman, a familiar and animal companion and several war dogs.Familiars/Animal Companions are built into the design of a class so they shouldn't be disallowed. However allies and henchman are limited per the FAQ section on Allies & Cohorts. At ECL3 you could maybe take a single war dog, not several. By the time you got a high enough ECL to be able to take several war dogs...odds are they would make little impact in the battle.
SoulLord 05-14-05, 11:41 AM	Thanks for the replies I'll stop hijacking this thread now but it does rise a few questions. then i could be for example a druid,wizard, paladin with a familiar an animal companion a war dog (henchman) a war horse and basically tag team my oponent?
Caterane 05-14-05, 11:48 AM	A druid/wizard/paladin; let's see... you would be at least level 7 and have 5 levels of unarmored paladin with important abilities of Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Cha, a 20% XP penalty, and you could neither compete with a melee character, nor a caster, nor a druid. And in return you'd gain a familiar, a 1st-level wolf, and a paladin mount. Although there is no cap for class allies, class allies do count against your limit so you could not bring any other allies into the arena. And if you tag-team with another gladiator, your opponoment has a gladiator buddy too so no gain here. I don't think the build you mentioned would be a game-breaking problem.
Jindl 05-14-05, 12:02 PM	FYI: Druid/Paladin cannot exist due to alignment restrictions. Druid/ex-Paladin or ex-Druid/Paladin are both possible, but then you wouldn't have both animal companion and special mount. Perhaps Ranger4/Paladin would be a better example?
Caterane 05-14-05, 12:09 PM	Right Jindl. I think Sunlord is more worried about the number of allies one might bring in, and I think a lvl 10 necromancer with a horde of 20 1-HD skeletons would be a good example. Although I'm not sure if they would do much harm to a level 10 opponoment. The bottom line is that there was no topic as hotly and often discussed as the ally debates but I think we have finally found a good system. Having no allies would be boring and limit the core only setting even further.