| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| Moherajikuyx07-28-03, 07:10 AM | This is the thread for comments, clarifications, insults and anything else regarding the Core Arena Gladiators thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=73069), where you may post your builds. You may read the matches outcome on the Fights (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=69954) thread. A small FAQ is in the first post of this thread. In case of polls, the thread is this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=114957) one; everyone shall have one, and only one, post there. Finally, if you want to roleplay your characters, the Roleplay (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=127417) thread is the place to go. |
| Lords of the Pit07-28-03, 07:11 AM | This will grow as needed. [list=1] Why is this thread Core only? Because many people feel like minmaxing 3.5 mixing in 3.0 stuff is not a perfect minmaxing way. Many opinions exist: this is why this thread exists in parallel with the Let's get ready to rumble thread, that treats about all the mixed minmaxes. Are you an enemy of the LGRTR thread? No way, I plan to go on playing there too. I had some divergences when I and others started proposing to do Core encounters only, but at last I understood that both the ways are correct: it's just a matter of opinions. For more options another thread is needed, with core only stuff: the Core Arena! Why do you use the Lords of the Pit login for some posts? Because this way moderators may modify the roster, pairings, FAQ and so on: I go on holidays sometimes too! :) Moderators will be notified of the password. That cool login was born in the original LGRTR thread, btw. Why may I now send the tactics via email? This way, players may keep their tactics secret, a thing that I always felt was needed in the LGRTR arena. It solves the problem of people changing their tactics after reading the opponent's. Why did you enlarge the arena? I felt it was really too small. I'd like to give a bit less emphasis on initiative. Now it is possible to be at melee range on turn 1 if mounted, but not to charge. Archers will find their targets at more than the first range incr. if they don't walk. Medium distance spells shall be impossible at turn one for some levels too. Why are pre-buffs allowed only for spells with a min. 24 hour duration? For a balancing factor. This lets the Extended Spell feat useful, and 24 h min makes it difficult to have mage armour from scratch, which from past experience in other threads is quite frustrating for fighters. This rule is under beta testing, though: if prebuffs are unbalancing, they will removed totally. Do i have to post the whole tactics of the character or the generic? Do i have to post the tactics? By Nikademus You have to post a default tactic under your build. When you'll know your pairing, for your next match, you'll have to post here or mail to the dm a "personalized" tactic, best suited for your enemy. This way, you shall have your best tactic used if you send it, and if once you forget to send in 2 days the match tactic to the dm, he will have something to work with. If you didn't post the default tactic, the dm would have to declare your opponent the winner without running the fight. May I change memorized spells? Yes, they're considered part of the tactics and may be changed for any fight. Of course you may only memorize spells in your spellbook if you''re a wizard. [/list=1] |
| Moherajikuyx07-28-03, 08:33 AM | Originally posted by nikademus Hello, i have a question with the tactics. Do i have to post the whole tactics of the character or the generic ? Do i have to pose the tactics ? I am confused about that. Thanks Nikademus I quoted your question here because I prefer to keep the other thread only with builds. You are suggested to post a general tactic under your build, as in Rito Maya example. When you'll know your pairing, for your next match, you'll have to post here or mail me a "personalized" tactic, best suited for your enemy. I'll add this question to the FAQ... Hope to see your build soon!:angel: |
| Moherajikuyx07-28-03, 08:42 AM | Originally posted by Gorath -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Evan Silvermoon Sun elf wizard 6 Nice to see you here Gorath! I prefer to start from scratch with this thread, so Evan shall start from second level: sorry! don't be sad though, this way you may minmax it for v.3.5 purposedly! Note also that there are some small rule changes. They're all bold, though. For example, you should post default tactics, while the opponent specific tactics will have to be mailed to the dm. Secret tactics now! edit: note also that you may not use Spellcasting Prod. here, as it's a campaign specific feat. |
| Moherajikuyx07-28-03, 09:05 AM | Gaynor added to the Roster! :cool: |
| youspoonybard07-28-03, 09:23 AM | I am interested in moderating fights. |
| Moherajikuyx07-28-03, 09:34 AM | Cool! Don't you want to post a build too? I'm delighted! I'll add you to the moderators. If you send me an email, I'll reply with the Lord of the Pit pwd. |
| youspoonybard07-28-03, 09:38 AM | I'll post a build, I'm just busy ATM. |
| Gorath07-28-03, 06:19 PM | Mo, i will post a new char tomorrow. |
| youspoonybard07-28-03, 06:59 PM | Mo, how come your character gets a +8 to ac after drinking a Potion of Mage Armor? |
| Moherajikuyx07-28-03, 07:01 PM | Wops! I copied it from the other thread, where he used shield too. Thanks :embarrass I'm changing it |
| Alathar Vierce07-28-03, 07:05 PM | Plotting a character now heh :) |
| JosephKell07-28-03, 07:11 PM | How are hit points being calculated? Like in the Rumble Arena with Maximized first and half+1 for each other? Cause if that is how then the other characters seem to have too many hit points. A 2nd level druid with 14 Constitution would have 8 + 5 (.5 * 8 + 1) + 4 (Con Modifier (2) * 2) = 17, not 19. Mo, I think perhaps you forgot your Constitution is just 14 and not 16, because there is a "3x2" in the hp calculation. And a 2nd level Cleric with a 14 Constitution would also have 17 hit points, not 15... And then again there is another Druid at level 2, but this time with a Constitution of 16, that has 19 hit ponts (which is right, by this method). |
| youspoonybard07-28-03, 07:15 PM | My character has a con mod of +3, and so gets 8 + 1/2d8+1 (5) + 2*3 = 8 + 5 + 6 = 19 Hp. That's right, right? |
| youspoonybard07-28-03, 07:17 PM | Well, we now have 4 builds, with a couple more coming soon, and I managed to figure out this plotting stuff ok. When are we gonna start? |
| Moherajikuyx07-28-03, 07:39 PM | Yo guys! This is wonderful! I'm happy you're here, thanks for the offer of moderating and the correction JK! As of now Gorath is redoing his char, I guess we may wait till tomorrow to see what he gets us! And JK, I hope you don't mind if I copy the enlargement potion... That's SO powerful for a grappler! :angel: See you tomorrow pals! |
| JosephKell07-28-03, 07:40 PM | Also, Mo, can we make our own Fight thread? Because the Rumble Thread is pretty full already. |
| Moherajikuyx07-28-03, 07:40 PM | BTW, anyone wants to comment about the 24h duration buffs allowed? If no one likes the idea, we may as well scratch it. |
| Moherajikuyx07-28-03, 07:43 PM | Originally posted by JosephKell Also, Mo, can we make our own Fight thread? Because the Rumble Thread is pretty full already. Sounds reasonable. Good work spooneybard! Those links were though to come out! |
| youspoonybard07-28-03, 07:44 PM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx BTW, anyone wants to comment about the 24h duration buffs allowed? If no one likes the idea, we may as well scratch it. In all honesty, I'm all in favor of scrapping it. Just leave it no pre-fight buffs. |
| JosephKell07-28-03, 07:46 PM | What is this 24 buff duration? To get a 24 buff you need Persistant spell, and that isn't Core 3.5. No pre-buffs makes it easy. The whole point of saying "Core only" is that it makes things so much simplier! Less rule-lawyering, less "It's in this esoteric-little-known-Forgotten Realms-Book-That-Was-Only-Printed-Twice-And-I-Have-Both" One more thing... for those trying to bring halflings over from the Rumble thread: "STRONG HEART HALFLINGS ARE NOT A CORE RACE!" |
| youspoonybard07-28-03, 07:47 PM | As Josephkell has pointed out, a lot of the HP calculations are off. When I took my Animal Companion/Horse/Summoned creature, I just used the avg HP in the MM, not the full first HD. I think that's appropriate, and would like to set that straight, as opposed to characters. |
| Alathar Vierce07-28-03, 07:59 PM | Just a question Joseph, on your build don't you need C. Expertise before you take Improved Feint? Was just glancing through guide building my guy, and noticed that :) |
| Moherajikuyx07-28-03, 08:00 PM | Originally posted by youspoonybard As Josephkell has pointed out, a lot of the HP calculations are off. I corrected Rito Maya... Again :embarrass Originally posted by youspoonybard When I took my Animal Companion/Horse/Summoned creature, I just used the avg HP in the MM, not the full first HD. I think that's appropriate, and would like to set that straight, as opposed to characters. Correct, and done. Originally posted by JosephKell One more thing... for those trying to bring halflings over from the Rumble thread: "STRONG HEART HALFLINGS ARE NOT A CORE RACE!" http://forum.igz.it/images/icons/laugh.gif Originally posted by JosephKell What is this 24 buff duration? To get a 24 buff you need Persistant spell, and that isn't Core 3.5. No no no no! I will not allow non core stuff. The proposal is only to make Extend Spell (quite core isn't it) useful. If you have a spell with a duration of minimum 24 hours, you may use a slot to buff yourself with it. Shouldn't we at least try it? |
| youspoonybard07-28-03, 08:04 PM | There are plenty of good combat spells with duration 1 rnd/level that I could see being extended. Greater Invis, for one. BTW, if anyone sees anything wrong with my build, I'll be grateful towards them. Please critique! |
| Alathar Vierce07-28-03, 08:11 PM | How are we going to handle the domains? I know you are saying Core only, but the core domains are every bit of bleh heh :) |
| JosephKell07-28-03, 08:12 PM | At least 24 hours... okay... I guess. But what spells would be that long? Greater Magic Weapon? Mount? |
| youspoonybard07-28-03, 08:12 PM | Sorry, core only. |
| JosephKell07-28-03, 08:40 PM | Originally posted by Alathar Vierce How are we going to handle the domains? I know you are saying Core only, but the core domains are every bit of bleh heh :) Are you complaining the the Core Domains aren't very good or that they are still cheesy? Cause if you are complaining about the former go to the Rumble Thread. Clerics should have deities, Clerics with Deities are cheesy! I mean Clerics with Time AND Strength Domain? Or Elf and Time? How cheesy can a player get? Or if you don't like Domains, don't be a cleric, be a Druid or something else. |
| youspoonybard07-28-03, 08:41 PM | Now, now, now, save it for the fight : P. Although a little pre-game warmup can be entertaining... |
| Alathar Vierce07-28-03, 08:48 PM | Well as un-needed as that was :) Granted the domains kind of fell into a rut after awhile of reading through characters. Just rather wierd going back to the balanced domains, after playing FR for so long lol. |
| JosephKell07-28-03, 08:59 PM | Well a lot of the FR domains gave Bonus feats. So a player could go: Strongheart Halfling Cleric (with no Patron Deity, which is breaking the FR rules) 1/Fighter 2/Psychic Warrior 2 (clvl 5) and get two Domain feats from Cleric, two bonus feat feats, two bonus psychic warrior feats and their Strongheart Halfling feat, level 1 feat and level 3 feat! That is 5 levels and 9 feats! BAB is +3, which is the same as a Cleric or Psychic Warrior. 9 feats!!! How cheesy is that?!?! |
| Alathar Vierce07-28-03, 09:23 PM | Granted those domains pretty cheesy, without them evens out the gameplay quite a bit in this light, just wanting to clarify for myself and others hehe |
| Otto the Bugbear07-28-03, 09:41 PM | Originally posted by JosephKell ... How cheesy is that?!?! Ahh, the power of cheese. |
| Mercy07-28-03, 10:37 PM | I like the core only thread. By the way what's the new arena shape? I saw it mentioned that it changed but I couldn't find the layout. |
| youspoonybard07-28-03, 10:41 PM | It's larger, I'm not sure where the obstacles are, though. Moherajikuyx? Man, so many potions of enlarge person. Wonder if I can win without one : P |
| JosephKell07-28-03, 11:15 PM | Just remember who thought of it (Potions of Enlarge Person) first! But spending a Standard Action to down a potion is kind of heavy... Especially when a character could instead do a quadruple move. It is 150 ft radius arena hemi-sphere (so it is 300 ft across). Competitors start 100 feet from the center on opposite sides of a diameter line (200 feet distant between the two of them). |
| JosephKell07-28-03, 11:18 PM | Originally posted by Otto the Bugbear Ahh, the power of cheese. And as fate would have it... I am from California... Gotta love that California Cheese... |
| JosephKell07-28-03, 11:40 PM | Now someone posted on our Gladiator Thread (rudely I might add because it says explicitly at the top to only post characters there and it even has a link to here for posting comments) about how our "core rules" can be abused with the claim that Savage Species can be considered "core" Well, just to be more explicit: THE CORE ARENA ONLY ALLOWS MATERIAL FROM A BOOK THAT SAYS EITHER: -Core Rulebook I v.3.5 -Core Rulebook II v.3.5 -Core Rulebook III v.3.5 Is that clear enough? Try to slip Savage Species in now. By the way, Mo, if I am going to help DM fights, you are going to have to Instant Message me. AIM: JonERPG |
| Moherajikuyx07-29-03, 04:35 AM | Yo guys! I'm proud of my creation seeing this kind of affluency! :angel: I'm going to post the code arena today, sorry about the delay. Edit: done! What a work! Well so, does everybody like it? JK: added you to my trillian. Tomorrow morning, I'll post the pairings! CU people! |
| Lords of the Pit07-29-03, 02:33 PM | Awesome job, Mo. While i admit i turned my attention away from the arena because i didn't like the way things were going, this one makes me come back. Count me in for moderating fights. Shadow Adept |
| Alathar Vierce07-29-03, 02:37 PM | Wow, great work on the arena Mo :) Obstacles and greater distance apart should make things interesting :D |
| JosephKell07-29-03, 03:14 PM | Perhaps we could also make some crazy add-ons to come... like a Chaos variant. For those that haven't played Warhammer 40k: -Chaos Variant is a battle scenario where time of day is re-rolled randomly after each round because the Chaos gods just like to watch mortals squirm. Also, at the beginning of a mortal's initiative, they must make a will save to remain in their place, or they are moved a random distance in a random direction. If moved they have to make a will save or be stunned (only a partial action) for the rest of their initiative. (I have special dice for scatter he he he he... basicly it is a die with 4 arrows on it and 2 bull's eyes) Please note, all animal companions and mounts also have to make will saves to avoid being shifted... so you could get seperated from your mount! :rofl: now, off to make a Cheesy Cleric of St. Cuthbert! |
| youspoonybard07-29-03, 03:39 PM | Personally, I wish that the floor was dirt, there was grass all over the place, and that the "ceiling" wasn't really a ceiling, but just the maximum height you could go before being disqualified. |
| RabidWeasel07-29-03, 05:21 PM | I wish there was grass all over the place Entangle, eh? :angel: I wish that the "ceiling" wasn't really a ceiling And call lighting, control winds... :cool: |
| youspoonybard07-29-03, 06:14 PM | : P. I said "I wish". I could always just control winds anyway. But...look out. I'm evil. I've found better things to do :smirk: |
| Moherajikuyx07-29-03, 06:17 PM | Howdy people! Originally posted by RabidWeasel Entangle, eh? :angel: Uh! This makes me remember to make explicit a "hidden" rule of the old arena: spells like entangle are considered having enough elements to be possible. So there's enough grass to entangle, enough humidity for summoning lighting, and generally, enough "stuff" to make possible the standard spell mechanisms. There's no less and no more, so for example in entangle, the part that says that the dm may change the effects for heavy vegetation is ignored. The same for all the other spells. Too strange situations will have to be judged case by case. Hum. Anyone wanna post this in a decent english? :D This is to try to consider as less important as possible the descriptive text: this is a min max board after all. Of course, this is not to say that I don't like descriptive text... Talking about which... I really think we shall vote the best character description every week! :king: Happy to have you with us again Shadow Adept! And now good night, and be ready: when you wake up, there may be pairings done... :smirk: (If the last 2 characters are ready, we're going to be the perfect number of 8!) |
| youspoonybard07-29-03, 06:24 PM | Wow! I'm changing my build a little then. Are we "outdoors" enough to do the 3d10 version of call lightning? |
| Moherajikuyx07-29-03, 06:39 PM | From the spell, it looks like the standard spell mechanism is 3d6, so I'd use that... Now it's really bed time! CU pals... |
| youspoonybard07-29-03, 06:43 PM | Yeah, I know. Wishful thinking. Hate to push the point, but if I make my own winds, can I use the d10 versions, or is it still considered not outside. My final question on the subject. |
| Mercy07-29-03, 10:15 PM | Can I make a suggestion on the rocks. Make them 10 feet high. A little added incentive to bull rush guys off them. :eek: |
| JosephKell07-29-03, 11:19 PM | Originally posted by Mercy Can I make a suggestion on the rocks. Make them 10 feet high. A little added incentive to bull rush guys off them. :eek: These rocks are 5x5 on the top... in order to bullrush a character off, both characters had to be up there first... You know... I could design a 2nd arena that included ramps, ledges, and pit falls... But... it would be a bit more complicated... and definately smaller than the current one! Could you imagine trying to get to each other if it was the same area and potentially a maze! I imagine Reach weapons would be more useful when you could potentially be 10 feet above your foe... (Longspear them from two climbs up...) As soon as Mo Instant Messages me I will talk to him... |
| Wumbo07-29-03, 11:59 PM | Would a character with ranks in craft(armor) be allowed to use his skill to make armor for 1/3 the normal price?(as listed in the srd regarding the craft skill). If so, how would that be handled, as everytime the DC is failed by 5 or more, half of the original cost is added again. |
| youspoonybard07-30-03, 01:29 AM | 2/3 cost, no XP spent. |
| JosephKell07-30-03, 01:38 AM | But how do you determine if you successfully make something? Perhaps just throwing out Character created items would simplify things... |
| youspoonybard07-30-03, 01:46 AM | You have to be able to take 10 on the check, I believe. |
| Moherajikuyx07-30-03, 05:44 AM | Yup, taking 10. Hey guys that's written on the rules, come on: you read the rules and FAQ, right? :confused: About the winds, I'd say that you've got to pull around "a djinni or an air elemental of at least Large size" to be sure, else you're subject to the dm interpretation. About a more complex arena, I'm already afraid of this one: consider that the more complex, the more time dms have to use to run fights. And now, to the pairings... |
| Moherajikuyx07-30-03, 06:34 AM | Hmm... Lords of the Pit seems to be malfunctioning. I hope so: if it's disactivated, that would mean disaster. Can who's got the pwd double check? If it's a problem of my pc, please paste the pairings on the glaidators thread and add the last two characters and Shadow Adept. In the meantime, I'll post the pairings here. I'm considering the last two characters ready, as they really look like to be. With them, we've got the perfect number of 8, and 4 dms! Everyone: remember, don't edit the build post! You can't change it till after the match! Dms: as written, you've got to wait 2 days - till friday, same hour as this post - for the tactics. If you don't recieve them by then, use the standard ones. Shadow Adept's mail can be accessed through his profile, here (http://boards1.wizards.com/member.php?s=&action=mailform&userid=233505) (SA, this is only because you didn't post here yet, I'll delete this as soon as you do) Here's the numbered list for the pairing rolls (rolled are deleted): Rito Maya, lev 2, Moherajikuyx Gaynor, lev 2, nikademus Calli'toa, lev 2, JosephKell Derra Arbourne, lev 2, Youspoonybard Alathar Vierce, lev 2, Alathar Vierce Targ, lev 2, Mercy Jart, lev 2, El_grinko Aramil, lev 2, JosephKell And finally, here are the rolled pairings! - 6: Targ (http://krisinchico.brinkster.net/searchroll.asp?username=pairings#51401) vs. 5: Alathar Vierce (http://krisinchico.brinkster.net/searchroll.asp?username=pairings#51402) (dm: Shadow Adept); - 5: Jart (http://krisinchico.brinkster.net/searchroll.asp?username=pairings#51403) vs. 2: Gaynor (http://krisinchico.brinkster.net/searchroll.asp?username=pairings#51404) (dm: JosephKell); - 3: Derra Arbourne (http://krisinchico.brinkster.net/searchroll.asp?username=pairings#51405) vs. 3: Aramil (http://krisinchico.brinkster.net/searchroll.asp?username=pairings#51406) (dm: Moherajikuyx); - Rito Maya vs. Calli'toa (dm: youspoonybard) Have fun! :D |
| Wumbo07-30-03, 09:06 AM | Ahh, I forgot about the taking 10 rule. I'm so used to there being a penalty for failure no matter what I do:) |
| Moherajikuyx07-30-03, 10:11 AM | Aren't you posting a character Wumbo? |
| El_grinko07-30-03, 12:19 PM | Okay, I'll email JosephKell with some specific tactics. |
| Wumbo07-30-03, 12:31 PM | Moherajikuyx Aren't you posting a character Wumbo? I will be, I know what kind of character I want, just not how to build it. |
| youspoonybard07-30-03, 12:32 PM | Josephkell, when you have time, mail me the fights so we can start fairly! PS. Good luck vs Derra. You're gonna need it : P (Actually, with my luck, you'll crit + kill me right away) About my horseback thing, Mo, I accidentally said "Medium or larger I get +1 to hit for higher ground". That should read: Medium or Smaller. And I can't access LotP either. Darn. We should probably make a new thread, and copy/paste all the posts. Mo, be admin only, it was probably the wildly different IPs that got it suspended. |
| greymouse07-30-03, 02:09 PM | Originally posted by youspoonybard And I can't access LotP either. Darn. We should probably make a new thread, and copy/paste all the posts. Mo, be admin only, it was probably the wildly different IPs that got it suspended. Hey guys, glad to see this thread up and going. Like I told the fellows on the other Ready to Rumble thread I'm burnt on running fights for a while. I hope you don't mind if I enter a character still. As to the problem with "Lords of the Pit" . I am also unable to log on using it. I sent Wizards an email about the problem. Hopefully they'll get back to me soon. Nice job Mo, I like some of the changes you've made. |
| Alathar Vierce07-30-03, 03:55 PM | Having problem with my mail service, sent an email to Shadow Adept (hopefully it got through).. By how the competition looks so far, seems to be the clash of the barbarians :) Much bloodshed to be had.. |
| youspoonybard07-30-03, 07:28 PM | Once you get both sets of tactics, you can do the match, right? I need a break. I'm doing the match now. *URGENT* Mo- I don't see Potion of Hide in the DMG. I assume that I can't use it, since you can't change your build...so your character has another 150 gp unspent. |
| Mercy07-30-03, 10:32 PM | Targ's tactics vs. Alathar are done and mailed to Shadow. On the bull rush thing, I was thinking of a bull rush in conjunction with a jump. If you made the jump you could attempt to bull rush the opponent off the rock, but if you didn't make the jump or failed the bull rush attempt you'd be the one taking the fall. And of course the opponent could take his AoO if he had one. Later. |
| youspoonybard07-31-03, 02:30 AM | I ran the first fight, and boy, was it exciting! Please make any comments on what I did wrong/should improve. I started off using the online dice roller, but I lost access to the page halfway through the fight, and doing grapple checks using that thing would be really annoying, anyway : P. So, sorry that no dice rolls are shown. Keep 'em coming! |
| Moherajikuyx07-31-03, 06:09 AM | Originally posted by youspoonybard Once you get both sets of tactics, you can do the match, right? I need a break. I'm doing the match now. *URGENT* Mo- I don't see Potion of Hide in the DMG. I assume that I can't use it, since you can't change your build...so your character has another 150 gp unspent. D'oh they removed it! Darn. Hey you already did the match I'm running to read it!!! |
| Moherajikuyx07-31-03, 06:40 AM | :( Though luck. But it seems Rito never flurried, or am I wrong? (a grapple check is an attack so flurry means two) Oh well. The match was indeed exciting. Luckily I got the money for another mage armor. One thing to remember: dms, post the specific tactics recieved by mail with the fights! That's more interesting than the generics: they have to be secret as long as the match has to be run, but then, it's better to learn from your enemies isn't it! Greymouse you're welcome to post a pc of course! Only, it's got to be core :) I'm proud I don't know what sleepweed pods are yet. Mercy: the jump+bull rush thingy sounds cool! I guess it's up to the dm, but you may propose it in a tactic, just to see what comes out! For Lords of the Pit: till tomorrow I'll use my first post. Sadly, I'm going on holidays saturday, so if LotP's use isn't recovered we've got to find another solution :( Let's see. Maybe after the matches we could do another thread. How boring, though. |
| greymouse07-31-03, 08:54 AM | Originally posted by youspoonybard I ran the first fight, and boy, was it exciting! Please make any comments on what I did wrong/should improve. I started off using the online dice roller, but I lost access to the page halfway through the fight, and doing grapple checks using that thing would be really annoying, anyway : P. So, sorry that no dice rolls are shown. Keep 'em coming! Nice job on the fight yousponnybard. Do have on comment/question. Since the Rito had reach, shouldn't he get an AoO against the gith when he moved in with the last attack? |
| youspoonybard07-31-03, 09:21 AM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx :( Though luck. But it seems Rito never flurried, or am I wrong? (a grapple check is an attack so flurry means two) Oh well. The match was indeed exciting. Luckily I got the money for another mage armor. He didn't, but flurrys require a full attack action...unless I'm wrong, you can't flurry in a grapple, as you get multiple attacks, but no actual full attack. I'm sorry if I'm wrong, but I checked over the rules a couple times, to be sure. |
| youspoonybard07-31-03, 09:24 AM | Originally posted by greymouse Nice job on the fight yousponnybard. Do have on comment/question. Since the Rito had reach, shouldn't he get an AoO against the gith when he moved in with the last attack? He had reach, but he also controlled 4 squares instead of 1, sso he had to expand. I thought he would choose to "control" the 4 squares adjacent to the fighter, so the fighter couldn't 5' step again and drink another healing potion/enlarge potion. So he was already adjacent to the guy. In any case, if he expanded another way, a 5' step is a 5' step... If the fighter didn't roll a 19, then max damage, the monk easily would have won. I mean, all was going according to Rito's plan, except that, in the last 4 rounds or so: 1) Calli'toa rolled double 20 to crit! 2) Calli'toa beat a grapple check to pin 3) Rito was unable to win a grapple check to break the pin 4) Calli'toa rolled 8 on CLW 5) Calli'toa hit, rolled 4 on 1d4. Before then, he was rolling "1...3...2"...on one of the Hide/MS checks, Rito rolled a 1, but Calli'toa still failed! |
| greymouse07-31-03, 09:36 AM | So when he expanded he grew toward him putting the gith only 5ft away. Okay:) |
| Shadow Adept07-31-03, 10:07 AM | I received both your mails. Expect your fight to be posted within the next 2 days. |
| Moherajikuyx07-31-03, 10:24 AM | Perfect, Shadow Adept! I'm waiting the fight... Originally posted by youspoonybard Before then, he was rolling "1...3...2"...on one of the Hide/MS checks, Rito rolled a 1, but Calli'toa still failed! Whoa what a couple of lucky guys :rolleyes:. About the grapple check, just for future reference, during a grapple one may use the full attack action. Obviously, it shall be explained better. I wonder who rewrote some 3.5 parts. From the 3.5 srd (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/CombatII.rtf): If You’re Grappling When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions. Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses. This means that the full attack action is possible: that's the only way to obtain more than one attack thanks to high bab. And some lines below: From the 3.5 srd (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/CombatII.rtf): Damage Your Opponent: While grappling, you can deal damage to your opponent equivalent to an unarmed strike. Make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. So, Rito could do 2 grapple attempts a round to deal damage, thanks to flurry, though he would have had -2 to his grapple bonus for any grapple checks of the round. I got the short stick :) Don't worry though. I got the shaft. Darn decisions. |
| piwi07-31-03, 11:41 AM | What's the climbing Dc for a rock????? |
| piwi07-31-03, 12:08 PM | The hut named Calli'toa has improved feint but not expertise isn't that elegal |
| youspoonybard07-31-03, 12:29 PM | I saw the multiple attacks, but I didn't know if a) if it was a "real" full attack, because are you really making the full attack action required for flurry, or b) if you could combine it with the opposed grapple check "damage your opponent" action, because it became immediately clear that that, rather than an attack at a -4 penalty, was the way to damage him. Sorry. |
| youspoonybard07-31-03, 12:30 PM | Originally posted by piwi The hut named Calli'toa has improved feint but not expertise isn't that elegal Yeah. He didn't use the improved feint, just as Rito didn't use his potion of hide. |
| greymouse07-31-03, 12:40 PM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx [B For Lords of the Pit: till tomorrow I'll use my first post. Sadly, I'm going on holidays saturday, so if LotP's use isn't recovered we've got to find another solution :( Let's see. Maybe after the matches we could do another thread. How boring, though. [/B] Well they emailed back with no help what-so-ever.:( Sorry guys I thought Lords of the Pit was a good idea. It appearantly has some glitches.:( |
| Moherajikuyx07-31-03, 01:54 PM | No problem spooney, as I wrote it's there just for future reference. Grapple attempts count as an attack, and you can do multiple attacks. You always get the full attack action unless specified. It's 3.5's fault, it could have been a lot clearer. Grey: I can only guess that less people has to use the account, as it's been used a lot and it got problems, probably, only when knowledge about it spread out. Tomorrow afternoon (EU) there should be some match more done. I'll redo the Gladiators thread and all the new characters will have to be posted there. As the FAQ looks fixed, we could leave this thread as is. For the new thread, I'll do another account for dms only. We should use it only one person a time, spooney you look a good candidate to me. When are you going on holidays? |
| JosephKell07-31-03, 02:05 PM | Originally posted by piwi The hut named Calli'toa has improved feint but not expertise isn't that elegal **** my bad... Combat Reflexes was supposed to be Combat Expertise... (I wrote this guy really late at night, I based it off a Githwarrior request someone made of me... let me find the original post if someone questions my intent) Original Githwarrior Post: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=68764&highlight=githwarrior But I guess that might explain why I didn't do any feints.. And isn't rolling a 20 to hit, and then a 20 to confirm threaten an Instant Death? What was the 3rd roll? Mo: If I can make one suggestion to you for your next fight: Add "Don't drink the Potion of Enlarge Person if my opponent seems to have difficulty hitting me with a melee weapon" |
| piwi07-31-03, 02:25 PM | Can somebody help me the climb dc of a rock please?????????? And who's the dm who i can mail to |
| JosephKell07-31-03, 02:30 PM | SpoonyBard... I can't help but laugh that you want your HUMAN druid to ride on a Riding Dog! A Human is too big! You would've been better off with a Wolf or Light Horse! |
| Alathar Vierce07-31-03, 03:36 PM | The druid rides on a heavy warhorse, the riding dog is the companion :) |
| Wumbo07-31-03, 03:59 PM | Say, how are spells with xp costs being handled(miracle, limited wish, and wish come to mind here)? |
| youspoonybard07-31-03, 04:20 PM | Yeah, I'm not using my animal companion as a mount...a wolf would be too small too. And 20 - 20 - x is a variant rule AFAIK...although your character was lucky to get em! And I thought that was the perfect time to drink the potion: you couldn't run anymore. And you were mainly having difficulty hitting in a grapple, because you had the -4 penalty. Rito was using his grapple checks to hurt you, which was a safer bet, because he was a monk and so did the same damage anyway, plus he had +4 on your grapple modifier. And does everyone think I did the listen/hide/spot/ms right? Everytime Rito moved, he made a hide/ms check, opposed by listen/spot. Everytime Calli'toa moved and Rito wasn't in full cover, he got a new spot check. I read and reread the rules there, and that's what I think was supposed to happen. BTW, you can still be flatfooted in battle, like if an invisible person attacks you, so unless you have improved uncanny dodge or whatnot you should still post your FF ac. |
| JosephKell07-31-03, 06:21 PM | Alternate Arena Shape (one fourth the size, multiple levels, Climb DC is 10, -5 Climb DC Modifier if the character can reach the next level up with its vertial reach as per PHB 3.5 pg 77: S - 4 ft; M - 8 ft; L - 16 ft) x 1 2 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 y0 w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w 1 w w w w w w w w w O O @ O O D O O O # O O w w w w w w w w w 2 w w w w w w w O O O O # O O O O O @ @ # O O O w w w w w w w 3 w w w w w @ O O O O O # @ # O # O # O O O O O O O w w w w w 4 w w w w # @ @ # # O O O O O O O @ # O O O O O O O O w w w w 5 w w w O # O O O # # # O # O O O @ O O O O O O # # O O w w w 6 w w w O O O O O O O # O # O # # @ O O # O @ @ # # O O w w w 7 w w O O # # @ O O O O O O O @ # O O O O O O O O O O O @ w w 8 w w O O O O @ O O @ O O O O O # O O O O O O O O O # # @ w w 9 w @ @ O O O O O @ # @ O O @ O O O O O O @ @ O O O O # # # w 10 w O O O @ O O O O O O O # @ O O O O # O # @ @ @ O O O # @ w 1 w O O @ # O O O O O O # O O O O O O # O # # # # O O # @ O w 2 O O O @ O O O # @ @ # O O @ O O @ O O O O O O O O # @ O O O 3 O O O O O # O # O O @ O @ # % % # @ O O O O O O O # @ O O O 4 O A O O O # O O O O # O O % % % % O O O @ @ @ O O # @ O B O 5 O O O @ O @ O @ O O @ O O % % % % O O O @ # @ O O # O O O O 6 O O O # O @ O @ O O @ O @ # % % # @ O O @ @ @ O O O O # O O 7 @ @ @ # O O O O O O O O O @ O O @ O O O O O O O # O O # @ @ 8 w @ # # # O O O O O O O # O O O O O @ O O O O O # # O @ # w 9 w O O O # @ @ # O # # O O # O O # # O O O O O O O # O @ @ w 20 w O O O O O O O O O @ O O @ O O O O O @ # # @ O O # # @ @ w 1 w w O O O @ O O # O @ O O O @ O O # O # # # # O O O # @ w w 2 w w O O @ @ O O O O @ O O O O # O O O @ # # @ O O O @ @ w w 3 w w w O @ O @ O O O O O O O # O O O O O @ @ O O O @ @ w w w 4 w w w O O O O O O O @ O O O O @ @ O O O O # O O O @ # w w w 5 w w w w O O O # O O # O O O O O @ # # O O O @ O O @ w w w w 6 w w w w w O O O O # O O @ # O O O O # O O O # O O w w w w w 7 w w w w w w w O @ O O @ # @ O O O O O # @ O O w w w w w w w 8 w w w w w w w w w O O # @ O O C O O O @ @ w w w w w w w w w 9 w w w w w w w w w w w w O O O O O O w w w w w w w w w w w w Legend: w wall O arena floor (+0 ft) @ arena floor (+5 ft) # arena floor (+10 ft) % arena floor (+15 ft) Letter Starting pit (A and B for 1 v 1 and teams) (A thru D for multiple teams and ffa) Notice how the middle area is a platform! Have dramatic duels up there, and bullrush your opponent off into mid area! Jumping can be used to get from platform to platform instead of climbing down (DC is distance to jump so it will be like 5 or 6 for short jumps, or 10+ for longer ones) I want to find out what Mo thinks before anyone uses it. Will of the Owner of the Godless Cleric (which is very cheesy I might add, but I am not here to judge...) please email me alternate tactics... or I will start at 4:30 P.M. PST. Nikademus, this is for you! |
| JosephKell07-31-03, 09:09 PM | Gaynor Versus Jart is up... It proves that a Cleric Archer would never make it to a high enough level to be uber! |
| Alathar Vierce07-31-03, 09:44 PM | Ouch is all I have to say :b: :smirk: |
| nikademus08-01-03, 04:57 AM | Hello, i didnt get an opportunity to mail my whole tactics for gaynor, especially become invisible and summon monsters in the fight. Therefore i could not win against my opponent. Nikademus I thought i should post my tactics before the fight and will be informed of the fight. Nikademus |
| Moherajikuyx08-01-03, 08:02 AM | Hi people! I just recieved the two mails and I'm writing the match. At the end I'll post the new gladiators thread, to recover from the loss of the Lords fo the Pit account. JK: the arena is cool! It's also complicated though. I think that would be perfect for player - controlled fights, like when one controls his character, but too complicated for dm-controlled pcs: how would you give a tactic for that arena? It would be certainly possible, but I fear that too much control would be given to dms. That's just an idea, if the other guys appreciate it, no problem. Nik, I really think you got enough time to send the tactics: it's really well written in the faq and in the rules. Sadly, my poor Rito Maya lost either, so we may fight together in the next encounter! So, see you after the fight pals... |
| nikademus08-01-03, 08:45 AM | OK, perhaps i didnt read something and miss the email thing. Thats my fault. Please delete gaynor from the fights. Nikademus |
| El_grinko08-01-03, 11:13 AM | Cool! I won. Honestly wasn't expecting to do that well. Good fight Gaynor (sorry about that bow there:) Oh, and JK, how come the buckler wasn't used? All my attack bonuses are based on the -1 that it incurs. Or should I have been more specific about it in my tactics? |
| Wumbo08-01-03, 11:24 AM | You can't use a buckler while attacking with a weapon two-handed. You CAN have the buckler attatched, it just wont provide any bonus. The point for using it is if you want to switch to using a shield, you don't have to use a move action to take one out. |
| youspoonybard08-01-03, 11:52 AM | Heh. That didn't go so well : P |
| Moherajikuyx08-01-03, 11:53 AM | Derra Arbourne vs. Aramil done. That was humongous! :( Took 4 hours. OK now I'll do the new post for gladiators. |
| Moherajikuyx08-01-03, 12:06 PM | Done. Please everybody, post the new builds here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=73069). Spooney I'm emailing you the Pitlords pwd, use it as sparingly as you can and remember that it's dangerous to spread it, as we know from Lords of the Pit. You'll have to send it to another dm when you go on holidays. Tomorrow I'll leave for two weeks, so it's likely that you won't hear from me in 2 weeks. Get on with this great thread guys! Ah, don't delete any post as I'll want to read it all as soon as I come back! CU! Moherajikuyx |
| El_grinko08-01-03, 12:25 PM | Ok, thanks for clearing that up wumbo. |
| piwi08-02-03, 11:36 AM | When do the battles start?????? |
| greymouse08-02-03, 03:24 PM | Nice idea on the links on the tournament roster.:D |
| LLMadCow08-03-03, 04:54 PM | I was wondering how you handle Level Adjustment....? are we only allowed to play characters with a LA +1, or are we also allowed to play characters with a LA +2? If so, how do we handle a character with a LA +2? Just curious. This will have an impact on what characters I might play.... |
| SnarkHunter08-04-03, 12:14 PM | Hey I just wanted to say I've submitted two builds and I'm feeling pretty good about it... But it does look like a number of additional participants are swelling the ranks so if you'd like another DM I hereby volunteer my services. good luck! |
| piwi08-04-03, 01:44 PM | How can I come on the roster my character si ready but it isn't there? |
| Pauper08-05-03, 11:25 AM | LLMadCow, As far as I can tell, your lizardman build isn't legal for this tournament. Lizardfolk begin with two levels of humanoid, and get a +1 level adjustment on top of that, so even a 'naked' lizardman would be considered a 3rd level PC, which exceeds the level limit entry for the tournament. Apologies if I'm wrong, but I don't think I'm wrong. -- Pauper |
| LLMadCow08-05-03, 01:11 PM | Originally poted by Pauper: As far as I can tell, your lizardman build isn't legal for this tournament. Lizardfolk begin with two levels of humanoid, and get a +1 level adjustment on top of that, so even a 'naked' lizardman would be considered a 3rd level PC, which exceeds the level limit entry for the tournament. Quite a few of the monsters on the Monsters As Races table lists monsters that have humanoid levels. Are the humanoid levels required? I had asked about this a short while back. Character will be updated shortly. For now, PC is removed.... |
| Pauper08-05-03, 08:05 PM | Originally posted by LLMadCow Quite a few of the monsters on the Monsters As Races table lists monsters that have humanoid levels. Are the humanoid levels required? If they're not, it would be a house rule for this tournament. One of the moderators should speak to this (I'm not an official moderator for this tournament - at least not yet ;)). If there were a 2HD monster with a +0 level adjustment in the core 3.5 rules, you could take a 'naked' monster into the tournament and have the option of advancing it by character class or by monster HD - both of these are valid ways of advancing a 2+HD monster. Unfortunately, there is no 2HD monster with a +0 level adjustment in the 3.5 MM (believe me, I've checked), and all of the 1HD monsters are listed as advancing "by character class", which strongly implies that these monsters don't have a hit die advancement. Good thought, though. -- Pauper |
| LLMadCow08-06-03, 01:51 AM | I don't know about anyone else, but I really wish that the 3.5 Core Tournament wasn't left at 2nd level. The LGRTR thread had far more books available to it, so the variety of character ideas was more expansive. With the 3.5 Core being as restrictive as it is, a higher level allotment would give more variety. I stand behind the purpose of low level survivabilty, but it is very limiting. As it stands, I have had one idea that I pulled due to Racial Hit Dice conflict, and two other ideas that I scrapped when I realized just how similar they were to existing characters in the tournament. Has anyone else ran into this? I agree that this is about min/maxing, but with only 3 books and the much smaller spell, equipment, feat and race lists, it is easy to quickly refine what is ideal. Just my two cents. It's not that I don't have other ideas, it just that a number of them happen to be very similar to existing gladiators... :cool: |
| JosephKell08-06-03, 11:52 AM | The whole point of a CORE Tourny, is that is just that: CORE. This way, anyone can pop open their 3.5 core player's handbook, and participate without having to hunt through page after page of comments. Racial Hit Dice are mandatory. And actually, I (I haven't discussed this with anyone else) would prefer that all characters were made with races in the Player's Handbook. There is plenty of variation with just 2 levels! More levels would make Wizards and Clerics unrestable. The idea is to force players to actually get to high levels, not just start there. (Don't take this post as me being back from vacation.) Toodles, -Joseph and Kell |
| Shadow Adept08-08-03, 03:10 PM | I'm very sorry to say that I couldn't find the time to run the fight in the past week nor I will probably in the near future. As you see I didn't even post a char of my own. :twitch: Sure you'll find another mod for this one, so keep it up and have fun.:) |
| Mercy08-08-03, 07:33 PM | Hey, Shadow thanks for letting us know. I hope you find the time to come back. JK or Spoony do either one of you want to run the fight between Targ and Alathar? If so I went ahead and posted Targ's Tactics in the Gladiator thread. |
| JosephKell08-09-03, 08:29 PM | I am back from vacation, but I am sick (I think I caught Strepe Throat...). So I will be slow... |
| laucian.se08-11-03, 10:47 PM | anything going on`? this thing seems dead... |
| piwi08-12-03, 11:58 AM | yeah I'm waiting about two weeks whos dming???????????? |
| piwi08-16-03, 06:48 AM | bump!:smirk: |
| laucian.se08-16-03, 07:44 AM | ultra-bump:angel: |
| Moherajikuyx08-17-03, 04:06 PM | Yo guys! I'm back from holidays. This thread looks quite quiet, so let's see. Who's still there? Who's still going to dm? lease reply here, let's get running by some days OK! |
| Alathar Vierce08-17-03, 07:26 PM | Still here, just seems everyone choice the same time to do the vacation thing :) |
| elf archer08-17-03, 09:39 PM | Legolas Greenleaf elf-ranger lawful good lvl-4 feats-alertness, track, rapid shot, endurance, animal companion (eagle) skills with ranks- animal empathy-1 climb-1 gather information-5 handle animal-10 hide-1 jump-1 knowledge (nature)-8 listen-2 ride-4 search-2 spot-3 swim-2 use rope-2 wilderness lore-2 survival-10 weapons longsword plus 3 attack bonus (1-8)+1 damage MTY comp longbow+1 plus 7 attack bonus (1-8)+1 damage 28 hit points AC-22 ref-8 fort-4 will-4 init-4 str-14 dex-18 con-10 int-10 wis-16 cha-10 rare items-bag of holding, ceremonial electrum dagger with star ruby in nommel, boots of the winterlands, and greater bracers of archery |
| SnarkHunter08-17-03, 10:28 PM | Aye Moher, I said I'd DM a fight or two, but I really don't know what system your using to do all this. The offer stands though, sol if you need someone else my e-mail is hennest.at.alleg.edu |
| Moherajikuyx08-18-03, 05:58 AM | Hi Alathar, yes vacations are big problems... In that they're so short!! Elf, please post your character in the gladiators thread: notice that the rules are there as the first post. Snark, thanks that' very appreciated. We'll wait for some posts, let's say a week, than do the battles. Let's see, well'use the characters of only the people that post a confirmation here within thursday, then we'll do the battles during the weekend. |
| greymouse08-18-03, 10:24 AM | Still here and glad to see some activity on this thread. |
| Moherajikuyx08-18-03, 10:39 AM | Yeah, true resurrection cast on thread ;) Elf archer, glad to see you participating. Please read the first 3 posts of the builds thread, where there are the rules for building legal characters: they have to start ECL 2 and with 1000 gp of equipment. You may edit your post until it gets legal and approved by a moderator. Let's get rumbling guys! |
| Alathar Vierce08-18-03, 11:09 AM | Well its good to hear everything is back up and running, now that classes have started up again, will have alot of free time sitting around. Just a quick question though, how many characters are you allowed to enter when your not a DM? I don't want to create anymore work for the others, but got an idea I want to try out :) |
| Moherajikuyx08-18-03, 11:14 AM | At start I wrote up to 2 for anyone, no limit for moderators. |
| SnarkHunter08-18-03, 11:15 AM | Ready and waiting with either or both of my entries! :D |
| Alathar Vierce08-18-03, 11:24 AM | Alright, in that case expect another participant when I actually get home in front of my books to flesh out the details. As of right now, Alathar is ready to fight :fight!: |
| LLMadCow08-19-03, 04:08 AM | Anxiously awaiting battles.... |
| Moherajikuyx08-19-03, 04:56 AM | Cool! ASAP I'll begin updating the roster with the ready players. |
| Pitlords08-19-03, 09:00 AM | Done! You got till thursday to ping yourselves (who didn't yet), so hurry up! Thursday I'll do the pairings. Snarkhunter, your offer is very appreciated. You may see the old fights on the fights thread and see the rules on the gladiators thread. If you like the system and wish to run a fight or two, confirm it here and I'll sign you up and send you the Pitlords pwd. On the old thread we used a system like this, but the pwd of the shared account was blocked after some heavy using. So, if JK or spooney are back and willing to go on dming, I'll wait to make you a moderator till there are more than 2 matches a week per moderator (2 matches in the weekend is already a big effort!) |
| elf archer08-19-03, 10:55 AM | im just going to watch the matches thx guys :invasion: :bounce: <<<< the fans :88E: :turkey: :devil: ^^the bad guys :fight!: :fight!: the good guys>> :love:<< shes the left fighters girlfriend |
| elf archer08-19-03, 11:00 AM | i finally got it to work sort of lol now if they only could fight for real....... (ponder) |
| Moherajikuyx08-19-03, 11:10 AM | That's art! ;) BTW if you edit your gladiator (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1086125#post1086125), he will be able to fight too. You have to post it of second level and you got up to 1000 go of equipment. Else, it would be appreciated if you deleted the post, to make the gladiators thread clearer... But if you clean up your entry and he fights, that would be better! :) |
| SnarkHunter08-19-03, 11:35 AM | Okay I've just read (reread actually ;)) the fights thread with an eye towards doing it myself and I think I can pull it off. Working with the code grid seems a bit wonky but I think I can figure it. Hopefully. I also fooled around with that dice roller and I like it a lot. So when the call goes out I'll be here to accept! |
| elf archer08-19-03, 11:36 AM | im all deleted plus my elven avenger bow would be too powerful for a battle against other people lol |
| piwi08-19-03, 12:42 PM | What means you must ping? Why am i not on the list?:( |
| SnarkHunter08-19-03, 03:29 PM | Piwi, you are on the list, but under level 3 for some reason. Maybe your getting a by? I don't know... |
| Moherajikuyx08-19-03, 04:32 PM | Originally posted by piwi What means you must ping? Why am i not on the list?:( And with this, you just did ping! :D (Don't mind me, that's just nerd jargon... :b: ) |
| Moherajikuyx08-19-03, 04:42 PM | Originally posted by SnarkHunter So when the call goes out I'll be here to accept! Spooney looks to be away, I think I'll call you. I'll wait only till tomorrow. About the code grid, don't worry, it's there just for reference between the players and the mods, you don't have to actually save all the coordinates of the fight. Only if you're playing a hider you shall pay attention, and even more so if it's small: you may notice that a character can go from a hiding place to another with 30' moves, but not 20'. This has implications both on the skill penalties and on the number of moves necessary to get from a place to another. Now I put piwi on the list or he's getting angry! :angel: |
| laucian.se08-19-03, 07:36 PM | <I wanna fight> just pm me or better mail me at m3@mail.nu if you can get me an opponent |
| Moherajikuyx08-20-03, 04:14 AM | OK laucian, cool now we're 8. edit: laucian, plz check the issues (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=926274#post926274) with pelle. SnarkHunter, I'm making you mod, JK hasn't the time. Tomorrow the pairings........ :twitch: |
| JosephKell08-20-03, 02:02 PM | Please retire my characters... actually I will just delete them. I know my abilities (my two entries were 2 of the 3 or 4 first round winners...) The Githwarrior and Cleric of St. Cuthbert are gone... |
| Moherajikuyx08-21-03, 06:04 AM | Originally posted by JosephKell Please retire my characters... Sad! Originally posted by JosephKell I know my abilities (my two entries were 2 of the 3 or 4 first round winners...) Looks you know your abilities, but do not discern your luck... :angel: edit: And now, for the pairings guys! CU LATER! |
| Pitlords08-21-03, 06:30 AM | Done! Good work with the tactics, then send them to your mod! Details here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=926274#post926274). Matches in the weekend. CU GUYS! |
| El_grinko08-21-03, 11:19 AM | Jart's set and ready to smash things. |
| SnarkHunter08-21-03, 11:59 AM | Hoo! gonna be some tough fights! To run and to watch...I can't wait...So excited! :cloud9: |
| Moherajikuyx08-21-03, 06:48 PM | Originally posted by El_grinko Jart's set and ready to smash things. Oh! Now that's bad luck, just some hours after the pairings :( Sad. Jart's having to wait for the next pairings, unless anyone retires before, which I find doubt. |
| Moherajikuyx08-22-03, 05:01 PM | To date, recieved tactics from piwi and Alathar Vierce. Come on guys! Let's fight! :smirk: |
| piwi08-22-03, 05:12 PM | yes!!!!!!!:D I'll be waiting for the result |
| SnarkHunter08-22-03, 05:52 PM | And I from Lucian.se |
| greymouse08-22-03, 06:58 PM | You can just use my general tatics posted on my contestant. |
| SnarkHunter08-22-03, 11:37 PM | that was the plan |
| Moherajikuyx08-23-03, 09:13 AM | Done! Quite fast! :) |
| SnarkHunter08-23-03, 01:22 PM | Drat, I had high hopes for that halfling. Two questions, aren't winners supposed to get 2,700gp? And did you role the 50% miss chance for milo being invisible? and one coment; Enlarge person!?! Ah well I never claimed Moon-moon was the sharpest twig in the bunch ;) |
| SnarkHunter08-23-03, 04:26 PM | LLMadcow before I run your fight I've got a few questions, you have rapid shot listed under your attacks but it isn't one of your feats. Also how did you work out your attack bonuses? I get 2+4dex+1mstr+1focus, for your base. Which is +8 like you have, vrs humans shouldn't that be +10 though? also within 30ft is +1 to attacks anddamage. Okay I think thats everything. If you don't respond tonight I'll just run the fight like I planned on Sunday. |
| piwi08-23-03, 06:19 PM | damn is was totally unprepared for an mounted foe:'( |
| SnarkHunter08-23-03, 08:12 PM | Quick question Moher, after the fight can we sell equipment we don't want anymore? For half price I suppose. Moon-moon feels he's outgrown his Splint mail and has lately been eyeing a Masterwork Full plate that seems more his style... |
| laucian.se08-23-03, 09:32 PM | yes I got the win. I think I had some luck there! my dogs were quite good that night =) but but... the funny thing was I failed casting a lvl2 scroll =) anyways the tentacles didnt hold him for long and how come only one tentacle grappled him? any DMs that can answer this? PHB 3.5 says: Every creature within the area of the spell must make a grapple check, opposed by the grapple check of the tentacles that means... umm many checks and it seemed that It wasnt rolled for how many tentacles were spawned... but anyways.. that spell is a little tricky to understand ;) well good fight anyway with hiding and interesting stuff :D |
| Alathar Vierce08-23-03, 10:29 PM | Alathar is updated for level 3, just waiting call on whether or not the money awarded was correct :) If not might have a few more changes for him then. |
| SnarkHunter08-23-03, 10:47 PM | Aye lucian I think the spell would be a bit mad if it created x number of tentacles that all got to grapple. The way i figured it, so long as you were in the area the tenctacles got one chance to grapple you. they miss the chance and thats it. Besides I wasn't about to role for half a dozen tentacles! |
| laucian.se08-24-03, 05:57 AM | Originally posted by SnarkHunter Aye lucian I think the spell would be a bit mad if it created x number of tentacles that all got to grapple. The way i figured it, so long as you were in the area the tenctacles got one chance to grapple you. they miss the chance and thats it. Besides I wasn't about to role for half a dozen tentacles! you said that the tenctacles got one chance to grapple you that means all the tentacles? but only one of them grappled him. And besides that this is the min/max board so spells should work as written even if they are semi-broken or "too good" right? thats what this is all about. And then I would like to ask, do I have to buy items before I meet my opponent? |
| greymouse08-24-03, 09:30 AM | Great job on the fights Moherajikuyx and SnarkHunter, they're great reading:D Val. is very happy to advance after being hit by that arrow. |
| Moherajikuyx08-24-03, 12:13 PM | Hello guys! Sorry for the delay but I've got a girlfriend IRL that at times prevents me from coming back to the real life, here! :D -Yup Alathar that's 2700! -Yup Snarky I rolled the %! -Yup we can sell used stuff for half the price! -Piwi actually I liked your strategy - dismount him :) - but you were quite unlucky with the rolls... Why don't you buy a mount too? Mhh that's all I think... I'm going to read the other fight now! :cloud9: |
| Moherajikuyx08-24-03, 12:51 PM | :( Rito's doomed by bad luck... A monk vs. a pair of stupid dogs... I can't believe that. AND I HATE DOGS! My girlfriend's got a stupid dog I can't see him killing a man for his life! Darmngfh... Jut for info, did Pelle get a free summon at round 6? SMI has casting time 1 round. -Yup buy equipment before: after the pairings, a change in the sheet makes for an automatic defeat! |
| Moherajikuyx08-24-03, 12:55 PM | Hum! I just thought of a dwarven barbarian/cleric! :b: Bonanza the Panza! |
| greymouse08-24-03, 02:55 PM | Originally posted by laucian.se yes I got the win. I think I had some luck there! my dogs were quite good that night =) but but... the funny thing was I failed casting a lvl2 scroll =) anyways the tentacles didnt hold him for long and how come only one tentacle grappled him? any DMs that can answer this? PHB 3.5 says: that means... umm many checks and it seemed that It wasnt rolled for how many tentacles were spawned... but anyways.. that spell is a little tricky to understand ;) well good fight anyway with hiding and interesting stuff :D Snark's correct, the spell only allows one grapple check. No where in its description does it say it allows multiple grapple checks, nor does it give a number of tentacles. |
| SnarkHunter08-24-03, 03:10 PM | Ooops yes pelle did, thought casting time was 1 action for some reason. that might have changed the fight some but I don't know how signifigantly. Ah well. now I'm off to college and when I get there I'll update Moon-moon and introduce Milo's 2nd cousin. Bilo darkleaf! |
| laucian.se08-24-03, 03:39 PM | snarkhunter could you answer my post earlier? some inportant things I would like to know... like why the spell is nerfed |
| Moherajikuyx08-24-03, 04:00 PM | - Laucian: grey's opinion is quite official here :) - Snark: it would have, in theory; but Rito was doomed with bad luck so probably it would have not. :( - Darn! Not another halfling! Those pests are sguishy. :mad: - I've done Bonanza! He's a maniac body-builder! :D Grey, I was wondering if you could run fights ONLY if I happen to be against snarky? This time it luckily didn't happen, but... |
| greymouse08-24-03, 04:25 PM | .Originally posted by Moherajikuyx - Laucian: grey's opinion is quite official here :) - Snark: it would have, in theory; but Rito was doomed with bad luck so probably it would have not. :( - Darn! Not another halfling! Those pests are sguishy. :mad: - I've done Bonanza! He's a maniac body-builder! :D Grey, I was wondering if you could run fights ONLY if I happen to be against snarky? This time it luckily didn't happen, but... Sure, I'd be happy to:) With the beginning of the school year about to start,(summer is over:( ), I'll be pretty busy getting things going but I'll do what I can. |
| laucian.se08-24-03, 04:39 PM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx - Laucian: grey's opinion is quite official here :) - Snark: it would have, in theory; but Rito was doomed with bad luck so probably it would have not. :( - Darn! Not another halfling! Those pests are sguishy. :mad: - I've done Bonanza! He's a maniac body-builder! :D Grey, I was wondering if you could run fights ONLY if I happen to be against snarky? This time it luckily didn't happen, but... what kind of min/maxing is it to nerf spells? we should encourage cheasy tactics on this board... not nerf 'em |
| greymouse08-24-03, 04:41 PM | Why do you feel we're nerfing the spell???:confused: I think you may be thinking of the 3.0 version of the spell, not the 3.5 which has been reduced in power. The old version had a roll for how many tenacles were created(which went up with caster level) the new one does not. The old one gave hp/ac of the tentacles, the new one does not. The spells are very different. |
| Alathar Vierce08-24-03, 06:49 PM | Just a quick question about the advancement via MClassing Paladins and Monks, is there free MC or once you leave the said classes you can't advance anymore? |
| Moherajikuyx08-24-03, 07:34 PM | Alathar - no free MC sorry Grey - thanks! I'm relieved :) edit: sorry I was in a hurry. No free multiclassing is because I know it's usually houseruled away, but the core material includes that too: I prefer not to do any distintion to start with or we could end up doing all sorts of rule modifications. |
| Moherajikuyx08-25-03, 08:29 AM | NEWS! New pairings wednesday 27 aug, GMT+0 13:00! Let's get ready to rumble guys & girls! :angel: |
| greymouse08-25-03, 06:03 PM | Corundum walks into to arena eager to test his magical skills. |
| Moherajikuyx08-26-03, 04:02 AM | Added: :D Corundum :D Cade Turen (Grey check the points, think Cha goes 6; Alathar check the dmg, SA inside not outside 30') :invasion: |
| Alathar Vierce08-26-03, 08:40 AM | I guess it was kind of late when I was figuring em out had it all switched around :) |
| greymouse08-26-03, 08:40 AM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx (Grey check the points, think Cha goes 6; [/B] Took -2 off Dex for some reason(Gold Dwarf if guess), thanks- I made some changes to his scores.:D |
| piwi08-26-03, 11:04 AM | Do you have to train an riding dog to trip for example |
| piwi08-26-03, 11:08 AM | Can I delete my old character and make a new one? |
| Moherajikuyx08-26-03, 02:50 PM | - the tricks in which the war animals (like riding dog) are trained are usually written on the 3.5 MM I believe; you can assume that they're trained in the mounted fighting set of tricks, 6 tricks. Check out train animal. - yup! But you also can use two! (up to 2 though.) As many have more than one character in the fray, I will reroll once in case two characters of the same player get to fight each other. Only once, though: if the roll repeats the fate is sealed! :eek: |
| Moherajikuyx08-26-03, 03:45 PM | Checking the builds! :D Grey Corundum's got a glitch yet. Snarkhunter don't make me worry, you're around aren't you? :sad: Update your pcs!!! Tomorrow the pairings... :glitch: |
| greymouse08-26-03, 04:46 PM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Checking the builds! :D Grey Corundum's got a glitch yet. greymouse: 0 won, 0 lost *10 lev 1 scrolls scribed = 250 gp not 150 Tomorrow the pairings... :glitch: I thought we were creating items at 2/3 cost? 25 x .66 = 17 ,not my origional 15(bad math) so for 10 scrolls that would be 170gp, correct? |
| SnarkHunter08-26-03, 08:25 PM | Sorry internets been wonky lately, moon-moon is updated and I'll have Bilo shortly! |
| laucian.se08-27-03, 06:49 AM | Originally posted by greymouse Why do you feel we're nerfing the spell???:confused: I think you may be thinking of the 3.0 version of the spell, not the 3.5 which has been reduced in power. The old version had a roll for how many tenacles were created(which went up with caster level) the new one does not. The old one gave hp/ac of the tentacles, the new one does not. The spells are very different. WHERE does it say that there is only 1 tentacle? only duration and range has been nerfed from 3.0 look att the 3.0->3.5 thread http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=63970 and in PHB 3.5 it says: "this spell conjunces a field of rubbery black tentacles, each 10 feet" (not one tentacle, 10 feet... but MANY tentacles) "every creature within the area of the spell must make a grapple check, opposed by the tentacles" (again tentaclesin prularis!) so they seemed to left out how many tentacles... but it still says there are more than 1 tentacle! |
| Moherajikuyx08-27-03, 07:23 AM | Originally posted by greymouse I thought we were creating items at 2/3 cost? 25 x .66 = 17 ,not my origional 15(bad math) so for 10 scrolls that would be 170gp, correct? Ah yup sorry didn't remember the feat. Laucian, read again the spell, but in 3.5: "Treat the tentacles attacking a particular target as a Large creature". This means that all the tentacles are only one creature, not a small creature with appendages, for grappling purposes, even though there are many. I suppose that's for simplicity's sake. edit: Laucian update pelle to 3rd level ASAP, I got to do the pairings, and you may update only before... |
| greymouse08-27-03, 08:24 AM | Originally posted by laucian.se WHERE does it say that there is only 1 tentacle? only duration and range has been nerfed from 3.0 look att the 3.0->3.5 thread http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=63970 and in PHB 3.5 it says: "this spell conjunces a field of rubbery black tentacles, each 10 feet" (not one tentacle, 10 feet... but MANY tentacles) "every creature within the area of the spell must make a grapple check, opposed by the tentacles" (again tentaclesin prularis!) so they seemed to left out how many tentacles... but it still says there are more than 1 tentacle! Either my PHB reads differently or someone's confused here. Your correct it does not say one tentacle(and I never said it did), it says [B]every creature in the area must make "A" grapple check, opposed by the tentacles.[B] "A" means one, it's singular. That grapple check is opposed by the tentacles check like Moh. said. It does not say every creature must make a grapple check vs each tentacle. It does not even give a method to determine how many tentacles there are. That's because it does not matter, it's one grapple check. Here's a couple of posts from the thread you mentioned above: "chonjurer Member Registered: Sep 2001 Location: Canada (2nd largest country in the world) Evard's Black Tentacles: big change: they now attack as soon as cast, and you only get to do damage once (as opposed to having a whole mitful of tentacles) __________________ Official Skeptic 7/Cynic 10 of the Church_Of_Mel Boards FAQ links (Have a question? We can probably help) 3.5 Problematic Spell Forum" "Evard's Black Tentacles Duration 1 round/level, and it is dismissable (This may very well be the greatest reduction in duration for any spell!) Area is now a 20 ft radius spread. There are no longer any specific number of tentacles, anyone within range are attempted grappled. The tentacles cannot be damaged. They no longer try to grapple objects. " |
| laucian.se08-27-03, 10:33 AM | okay then im gonna do something else... but are the fights planned to be set for today? my char isnt ready.. im gonna change him and lvl up... and I wont have time today... so im next matchup |
| piwi08-27-03, 11:19 AM | To be done wednesday, 13:00 GMT+0 I might be wrong but it's 17:23 were I live and i live in GMT+1 so your about 3 hours to late:P |
| Moherajikuyx08-27-03, 12:14 PM | Sorry but I got to delay 4 RL, to 20 +0 GMT sorry again guys, see you in a few hours! |
| piwi08-27-03, 01:11 PM | :( |
| Moherajikuyx08-28-03, 04:41 AM | Pairings done! :D Greymouse, you're both lucky and unlucky: the first because no fight among me and Snarky, so you don't have to run. The second because Valuppa was rolled to be the one of the three not participating, at 3rd level. I think that if Laucian edits his character, then you're the one to decide if the match has to be done, because you're at a disadvantage. All the others: Remember, don't edit the gladiators before the fight or you will automagically lose it! And now, good tacticianship! Moherajikuyìx |
| SnarkHunter08-28-03, 08:13 AM | okay...for the level 3 fight, when you said Devon, did you mean moon-moon? What with Devon not being 3rd level and all. Also I just noticed I didn't include size bonuses for Bilo, can I edit those in real quick? |
| greymouse08-28-03, 08:26 AM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Pairings done! :D Greymouse, you're both lucky and unlucky: the first because no fight among me and Snarky, so you don't have to run. The second because Valuppa was rolled to be the one of the three not participating, at 3rd level. I think that if Laucian edits his character, then you're the one to decide if the match has to be done, because you're at a disadvantage. All the others: Remember, don't edit the gladiators before the fight or you will automagically lose it! And now, good tacticianship! Moherajikuyìx No problem, if Laucian edits him today he'll fight, if he doesn't then he'll kick back and watch Corundum kick some halfling rump.:D |
| Moherajikuyx08-28-03, 10:54 AM | Originally posted by SnarkHunter okay...for the level 3 fight, when you said Devon, did you mean moon-moon? Also I just noticed I didn't include size bonuses for Bilo, can I edit those in real quick? 1- :embarrass of course 2- no, write it on the mail, so that I remember it grey - cool! Hope laucian sees it. The match will be run by SnarkHunter. |
| Moherajikuyx08-28-03, 10:55 AM | Tactics for Alton Thorngage recieved :cool: |
| Moherajikuyx08-29-03, 02:59 PM | Bilo Darkleaf, SnarkHunter vs. Corundum , greymouse done! Skymoon Moonbow, SnarkHunter vs. Alathar Vierce, Alathar Vierce done! Still waiting LLMadCow's tactics. Note: about the readied action vs. charge. I don't know if that's totally correct. On the rules board it's debated. I ruled it this way because Alathar had the reach advantage, so I think that's corect. Maybe we shall discuss it, bring your opinions, for if it happens again. |
| Alathar Vierce08-29-03, 03:51 PM | As far as the ruling with the attack on the charge, seems reasonable here but I don't have books to look at right now. As far as the edits on my character listing, wouldn't the 10ft reach be added onto the chains natural reach? I'm not 100% sure, but if you could point me to a page where you made the ruling should be ok :) |
| SnarkHunter08-29-03, 04:43 PM | Don't know why I thought two handed added to Attacks...ok. As far as the two handed lance with shield I refer you to this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=79730) thread, specificly hypersmurf's post at the bottom. mmm dirty dirty dwarves. Flaming dirty dirty dwarves at that. it looks like my skills are fine actually, I'll clarify what came from what with the next level. Drat I knew I forgot something...military saddle, oh yes, you will be mine. |
| Moherajikuyx08-29-03, 05:23 PM | Alathar, it looks more "right" that way: both the weapon and the natural give +5' to the base 5' reach, so they total to 15'. To tell it another way, a reach weapon permits you to move down a row in the Table: Creature Size and Scale (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/CombatII.rtf), so from size large you go to size huge. To have 20' reach you have to be gargantuan (tall), so that's clearly more than a troll with a guisarme, I believe. Note also that bigger weapons don't extend reach, so a gargantuan weapon will give anyways +5' reach. And, as both had a reach weapon, it was of little difference in this fight... If yoy manage to find an official ruling we'll use it next time. SnarkHunter, About the lance & shield: reading that thread it appears evident that I favoured you, as I permitted you to use the lance with the shield even if not mounted :) It looks you're referring to the post about power attack, but Moon moon doesn't have such feat :confused: LLMadCow, I'm waiting for your tactics: as written, tomorrow I'll use the standard ones if I don't recieve your mail. Sorry about, but I have to leave tomorrow early and go on my Guzzi bike to meet my girlfriend ;) |
| SnarkHunter08-29-03, 05:32 PM | It never came up (since I never hit) but all it meant was that when mounted I could weild a shield and lance and still recieve bonus damage for it being a two handed weapon. And the charge would have tripled that...sigh. anyway's I have tactics for Moher and Cade, so I'll start on that one now. |
| Moherajikuyx08-29-03, 05:44 PM | Mhhh, I don't know, it's wielded one handed so Str x1, but it's still a double handed weapon so power att +2 for -1 bab on my opinion. It's debatable. Maybe you're right, I wish we had official rulings. Good fight running! |
| Alathar Vierce08-29-03, 05:45 PM | Sounds good to me Mo, when I get around to updating Alathar I'll put the changes in then :) |
| SnarkHunter08-29-03, 07:39 PM | this is all asuming I get power attack. Moon-moon's progression is stalled. For a week at least :rolleyes: . At least Bilo has avenged his cousin...but is his blood lust sated? Tune in in 3 levels time to see if he savagly murders someone to join the Assassin guild! And untill then keep drinking your Ovaltine. Thats Ovaltine, a chocalet mix that can't be nixed! |
| Moherajikuyx08-30-03, 05:58 AM | After reading better the equipment (http://www.wizards.com/D20/article.asp?x=srd35) section, I changed my mind: the lance is a double handed weapon, and these give 1 1/2 str to dmg. The lance has the characteristic of beign wieldable one handedly mounted, but this doesn't chage its double handed nature: so, x1.5 Str to dmg :) |
| Moherajikuyx08-30-03, 06:00 AM | :( I was looking for the fight but it's not there yet! http://forum.igz.it/images/icons/cry.gif |
| piwi08-30-03, 10:11 AM | When are the fights ready? |
| Moherajikuyx08-30-03, 10:40 AM | I just did a boring Devon vs. Alton Thorngage... I finished the fights, now it's SnarkHunter time! (Snark, if you have too much work, maybe grey could help?) |
| piwi08-30-03, 11:28 AM | 17 rounds is not half an hour it isn't even 2 minuts!:smirk: |
| piwi08-30-03, 11:33 AM | I had only 10 mw arrows so does my victory count or not |
| Alathar Vierce08-30-03, 11:40 AM | Guessing it'd have to be redone due to that reason, kind of hard to kill a guy with arrows you don't have :) |
| piwi08-30-03, 12:01 PM | That would be the most fairest! |
| Jindl08-30-03, 02:28 PM | Glorfindel has arrived and would like enter the next round of fights. |
| LLMadCow08-30-03, 10:11 PM | Tactics were finally e-mailed along with some questions and comments. I am awaiting the response to see if the fight will be re-run. We shall see... |
| SnarkHunter08-31-03, 03:46 AM | Well i'm done! need to get to bed earlier these days..have a lto of homework to do... A friend of mine may be joining and DMing as well so that should help. |
| piwi08-31-03, 08:53 AM | I think it should be redone |
| SnarkHunter08-31-03, 10:34 AM | Just fyi Masterwork arrows are pretty useless since the masterwork bonus doesn't stack with the masterwork bonus of the longbow. So there was an extra +1 in his attack bonus too. |
| piwi08-31-03, 11:05 AM | ?????? masterwork bonusses of arrows and and bows stack dont they:confused: |
| Jindl08-31-03, 03:09 PM | I was just reading the fight between Alton Thorngage and Devon and: Moherajikuyx, Shouldn't Alton's AC have been 19 (or 16 flat footed) since he was unable to use his shield while using his longbow? Piwi, I think Alton's touch AC should be 14 to include his size bonus. And does this riding dog automatically come with studded leather barding? I saw that it has a +3 armor bonus from studded leather in its description, but I didn't see studded leather barding in the equipment section of your build. LLMadCow, Does Devon have rapid shot? I saw the attack mod's in the build for it, but didn't see rapid shot listed as one of his feats. Sorry to nit-pick on the AC stuff. Just wanted to help for the next time. :) |
| piwi08-31-03, 03:53 PM | Damn I will edit it |
| piwi08-31-03, 03:59 PM | I changed it you were right about th ammuntion I leaved that the way it was. I removed the barding and removed the bonusses from the masterwork arrows and i added my size bonus to attack roles |
| Moherajikuyx08-31-03, 05:03 PM | Oooooookkkkkkkkkkkeeeeeeeeeeeettttttty, actually I did this one quite in a hurry, and of course, I missed much. Sorry guys. As told, I had to run to my gal :embarrass Anyway, as even the winner wants it redone, I'll do it tomorrow. Piwi, I think that it would be fair to let you change tactics if you wish. I'll wait till tomorrow evening, mail them to me to see them used. |
| Moherajikuyx08-31-03, 05:07 PM | Originally posted by Jindl Sorry to nit-pick on the AC stuff. Just wanted to help for the next time. :) And you do! Keep on! Good to see new fodder.. Ehm, glorious combatants! [off topic] Guys I just saw The last of Mohicans. TOO GOOD! WANNA DO A BARBARIAN! (Already done it doh :D) Anybody knows what's the enormous blade that the mohican uses? |
| LLMadCow09-01-03, 04:43 AM | Devon does not have rapid shot. Please disregard. I will edit after battle, as I do NOT want my character disqualified due to changes made tonight. Rapid Shot was left over from a previous version and I forgot to change..... I repeat, please disregard Rapid Shot - ALL attacks wil be single shots, thus making it easier to attack my target. |
| Moherajikuyx09-01-03, 12:25 PM | OK, fight done. What a final! |
| Moherajikuyx09-01-03, 12:44 PM | Done new roster. I just decided that if a character doesn't fight coz of the uneven number, he's sure to fight the week after. Now, to the editing! Please, remove the prices of the items you possess from the week before, and write near the money the buying and selling, for mods' easyness of reference when we got to check out things. Look at Bonanza for an example. CU guys! |
| SnarkHunter09-01-03, 07:24 PM | Wow thats a very impressive fight. I've updated equipment for the boyos. Hmm I wonder if they'll be paired...Well if so I know at least one of them will be going to 4th :D . Okay you've readjusted gold awards I can see, but what about people who've already leveled with the old rewards? Edit: also you have the bonus for second level but in the DMG on page 54 its 1,800gp. |
| Magagumo09-01-03, 08:54 PM | Sorry, wrong page. (Curse you SnarkHunter, you have foiled me again!) |
| SnarkHunter09-01-03, 09:08 PM | I AM WINNAR!!!11one |
| Moherajikuyx09-02-03, 04:20 AM | Originally posted by SnarkHunter Okay you've readjusted gold awards I can see, but what about people who've already leveled with the old rewards? Edit: also you have the bonus for second level but in the DMG on page 54 its 1,800gp. Hum, I think it's correct, the starting gold should be 900 at 2 (we've got 1k, always done so don't know why, but it's nicer), the starting gold at 3rd is 2700 we already gave 1000 so 1700 left, then 5400 already gave 2700 so 2700, at 5th it's 9k so 3.6k left, and so on. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that the old rewards are exactly these... |
| Moherajikuyx09-02-03, 04:31 AM | Ander Brogaden inserted! Magagumo, your offer of running some fights is very appreciated: doing so requires quite some time, and as some of you probably noticed, I already quit advertising this thread in other threads... I think I'll give you a fight or 2, OK? |
| piwi09-02-03, 10:37 AM | what's the price of a hippogrif? |
| Jindl09-02-03, 11:14 AM | Magagumo- Looks like Ander and Glorfindel could get into a pretty good archer's duel. BTW: If Ander's favored enemy is human, doesn't he need to be evil (since he is a human also?). With access to protection from evil/good/law/chaos, the characters alignment could become important. And using these protection spells is a good way to prevent getting mauled by summoned creatures (Druids beware...) |
| piwi09-02-03, 11:38 AM | plz check alton thorngage for errors |
| Jindl09-02-03, 12:00 PM | I hope its not too late to enter a new combatant for this round: Enter Jindl of the High Forest. Also, Moherajikuyx- If you still need more help running the matches, I am more than happy to help :) |
| SnarkHunter09-02-03, 01:08 PM | Actually the evil requirement for favored enemy was removed in 3.5. There are plenty of people who are very good at killing other people (like say....fighters) who are not necessarily evil. |
| Magagumo09-02-03, 01:59 PM | Ty for the reply Snarkhunter, I was about to respond similarly myself. *shakes fist behind Snarkhunter's back* Anyways, I would happy to take on a fight as GM, just let me know whom is fighting, and where I need to post results and such. |
| Jindl09-02-03, 02:16 PM | Glad to here they got rid of that requirement. I never thought it was appropriate, especially since every lawful good sheriff in the old west would have favored enemy (human) even more for the skill bonuses than the damage bonus. I do think that this change might make favored enemy (human) the best favored enemy in most campaigns and thus a very good min/max choice! :) |
| Jindl09-02-03, 02:24 PM | Alton Thorngage looks good piwi, except his touch ac should be 14 to account for Dex and Size, and you might want to recalculate his skills (should have 6 ranks each?). 29 hp! Thats one tough 3rd level halfling... (It should be 28 hp. 10 + 6 + 6 + 6). |
| SnarkHunter09-02-03, 02:46 PM | Man I just keep thinking of scrolls that Bilo could really find handy. But first; Moher, whats the word on the cash prizes? I've kept 1,000 in the bank in case what I fear is the...er case. |
| Moherajikuyx09-02-03, 03:54 PM | Yes, sorry I did a lot of confusion with the money prizes. At second level the prize is 1700 so Bilo has 1k less, sorry again. I checked fastly out and it seems that the characters all recieved the correct amount of money. Hope to be corect. Jindl added by the way! :cool: |
| SnarkHunter09-02-03, 09:10 PM | Okay Bilo's been suitably edited, and also for clarity. Because I like my DM's yes do. Moon-moon's a bit trickier...just how I paid for everything, and since I already removed sold items. I'll cut you a deal though-1000gp less for the next purse he gets? One could claim the extra gold gives him an advantage in fights...but given his showing against Alathar...it just isn't so ;) . Anyway, is that kosher? |
| Moherajikuyx09-03-03, 08:05 AM | Couldn't you try? You can find old versions on the fights thread. |
| SnarkHunter09-03-03, 01:06 PM | Noooo! not my masterwork full plate, I loved yooooouuuuuuu! Sorry, that was uncalled for. Anywho changes made. That should put both my little guys on the up and up. |
| Moherajikuyx09-03-03, 01:36 PM | Ah it was sentimentally difficult I misunderstood :) |
| Moherajikuyx09-03-03, 01:52 PM | OK guys tomorrow the pairings. I'd like to move them on wednesdays, this way we would have a working day - friday - to run the fights. Please edit the pcs right after the fight, at least try to. CU! |
| SnarkHunter09-03-03, 02:06 PM | 1 request actually moher before you do the pairings, I'm going to be busy this weekend so I don't think I can take more then mmm...1 fight. They're fun and all but they are rather time consuming. Fortunatly there are a couple other volunteer DM's out there so even with the extra players it shouldn't be to much of a burden. Thanks! |
| Alathar Vierce09-03-03, 02:58 PM | Well looks like I got the weekend off then, gives the ole barbarian time to drag the shells home :D |
| Moherajikuyx09-04-03, 07:07 AM | OK then, Magagumo and Jindl recruited! :) And now, to the pairings. |
| Moherajikuyx09-04-03, 07:27 AM | Done! - Martrim was unlucky enough as to be excluded due to uneven number :( (all the rolls are visible at the link) - The new mods have to post here or send me their emails ASAP!! |
| greymouse09-04-03, 08:18 AM | I thought I had Corundum ready to go on 8/31/03? I removed the three scrolls he used (spectral hand, mirror image, and exped retreat) He purchased an exped scroll. Did forget to post that he was updated though, am I missing anything?:confused: |
| Jindl09-04-03, 11:50 AM | Mo + Snark - Email tactics to me at: powellsl98(at)nc.rr.com for Skymoon Moonbow + Rito Maya. Feel free to add this email to the list of moderators emails on the builds page... |
| Moherajikuyx09-04-03, 12:38 PM | Sorry grey I didn'ìt notice :embarrass Perfect then, everyone playing at level 2!!! :) |
| Moherajikuyx09-04-03, 12:51 PM | OK, done! Corundrum fights because he was edited previously than the pairings. I hope you don't mind if I give this fight to you, Jindl :) LLMadCow, I see you had the time to edit the pc only after the pairings, though luck :( Next week I'll try to do the pairings wednesday. I suggest you edit the character as soon as you read the fight people, if possible of course. edit: All the moderators' emails are out now |
| greymouse09-04-03, 02:25 PM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Sorry grey I didn'ìt notice :embarrass Perfect then, everyone playing at level 2!!! :) Probably my fault, forgot to let you know he was edited.:) |
| Magagumo09-04-03, 05:38 PM | Hey Greymouse, Moherajikuyx just pointed out to me that your Will save for Valuppa is 4, but 2 Wiz gives you +3, and you have a +0 Wisdom mod. I have noted this change, but just make sure you change your character after the fight :) |
| greymouse09-04-03, 06:05 PM | Don't know how I got 4. 3 + 0 = 3, not 4 - oops ;) |
| greymouse09-04-03, 06:15 PM | This may be a silly question, but can wizards change their memorized spells after opponents are determined? |
| Jindl09-04-03, 07:58 PM | I would consider spells memorized to be part of the tactics for the fight... But then "that's just me" ;) |
| greymouse09-05-03, 08:56 AM | Kind of what I figured. Corundum's and Valuppa's tatics are sent:) |
| Moherajikuyx09-05-03, 09:33 AM | Yup, that's considered tactics. It's in the rules somewhere. |
| Moherajikuyx09-05-03, 01:44 PM | Cade Turen vs. Jindl done (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1254786#post1254786): luck chose the outcome. I recieved Alton Thorngage's tactics... |
| piwi09-05-03, 02:16 PM | Can you delete matrim stormwind I want to have a new one |
| piwi09-05-03, 02:18 PM | I will just edit him and change him I let the other one win matrim stormwind NOT alton thorngage |
| Alathar Vierce09-05-03, 03:46 PM | Due to horrible luck with Cade, going to recreate him soon as I get in front of books to devise a plan :P |
| Alathar Vierce09-05-03, 04:22 PM | Quick Question, Could a cleric follow a god from the FR pantheon, however being limited to what domains are in the Players Handbook (as the FR domains are rather broken in ways :) )? |
| Moherajikuyx09-06-03, 08:38 AM | Eh eh! The last fight was a complete surprise. Alathar, I'd say no, that's part of the core rules: I think that the associations between domains, and the one between domains and war domain weapons is part of the game balance. Clerics are already very strong, I believe. If you check, with Bonanza I did it correctly, and also the alignment corresponds: Pelor is CN and Bonanza is only a step away from that. You're welcome to retreat a character and post a new level 2 character! Only, he will have to have a different name, to avoid confusion please. Ah! I forgot, the rolls for the fight are here (http://krisinchico.brinkster.net/searchroll.asp?username=AltonBilo#58542) . |
| SnarkHunter09-06-03, 09:28 AM | Quick question, on the shocking grasps you only rolled 1d6. Each of those would have been 3d6 electricity (2d6 2nd level caster and 1d6 sneak attack since stunnend negates dex). Also another 1d6 sneak on the CDG on the dog. Things might of turned out a bit differently considering that... Also, 1st level scroll=25gp not 50. |
| Moherajikuyx09-06-03, 09:47 AM | Azz! You're right about the costs. The damage to the dog was a crossbow bolt, not a schocking grasp. And I was sure that Shocking Grasp's damage was 1d6, sorry, I did the roll and it resulted the same way (check the online roller). |
| SnarkHunter09-06-03, 09:54 AM | ...but you only rolled 2d6. It's an extra 2d6 for each shocking grasp. so...very...close;) edit-and for the dog I meant he had an extra 1d6 sneak attack damage too. |
| Magagumo09-06-03, 11:15 AM | Hey, not to call a lot of the last fight into question, (but I'm afraid I'm about to), but besides each Shocking grasp being 2d6 electricity + 1d6 electric sneak attack damage (A stunned foe being suceptible to such things,) a coup de grace is an autmatic hit and a critical hit which also adds the rogue's sneak attack damage. thusly, the coup de grace would have been 2d8 + 2 (PBS) + 1d6 sneak attack. According to the PHB pg. 153, once a coup de grace's damage has been rolled, the dfender must then roll a Fort Save Dc (10+damage dealt) or die. On average rolls (4.5 for a d8), the coup de grace would have dealt around 14.5 (give or take ;)) damage, thus a Fort 24 is in order, and the dog would have died. Not to make your life extremely difficult, Mo, but I think it would be best if you simply rerolled the Two Shocking Grasps with the above clarifications, and the Coup de Grace/ subsequent Fortitude Save as well. Finally, as per PHB pg. 80, a rider can make a "Soft Fall" check (DC 15) to avoid the 1d6 damage when his mount falls down (an event that often occurs when our dogs fall asleep beneath us). Since he was also stunned, he can't make the check (Stunned charcters can't take actions, and that could certainly be interpreted to skillfully rolling to prevent hard contact with the ground). Also, stunned characters drop what they were holding, and it is a move-equivalent action to pick them back up. Thus, Alistar (sp?) would have needed to pick up huis weapon, and then move to Bilo (who has 5 feet away I believe) preventing his killing blow for one round, and allowing Bilo one more highly dangerous attempt to survive, if indeed that was necessary in the first placwe given the myriad of complications written above. Sorry to give you so much trouble, but I do belive this fight would go to Bilo once these things above are resolved. |
| greymouse09-06-03, 11:58 AM | Well, it looks like Corundum got lucky this time since his opponent backed out of the fight. He's sure it's because of all the rumors he's been spreading about himself and his abilities as a gladiator.:cool: ;) |
| Moherajikuyx09-06-03, 12:11 PM | Darn! Sorry Snark, I completely forgot the SA. Probably if I didn't you would have won. Really sorry. I really hate it when it happens to me, like with Rito Maya not doing all his grapple attempts, so I know your feelings. I'm not going to rerun, sorry, for two reasons:1. it's in the thread rules (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=73069), point 8th, 2nd I got a weekend with my gal :cool: so bye bye and see you next week! :D |
| SnarkHunter09-06-03, 12:36 PM | Ah well, just be sure you remember next time. no hard feeling ;) |
| Alathar Vierce09-06-03, 04:09 PM | S'ok on the diety thing, as it was more for style and reasoning of the god, more than min/max :) Roscoe GoodKeg has arrived and is ready to fight.. :) |
| Jindl09-06-03, 05:24 PM | Fights are posted for Corundrum and for Rito Maya vs. Skymoon Moonbow An amazing fight for Rito Maya vs Skymoon Moonbow, and quite a spectacle for the victorius Corundrum. |
| SnarkHunter09-06-03, 10:45 PM | HA!!! Warhorse is the winner!?! BEST HORSE EVAR! Anywho I've got tactics for Glorfindel and Ander, I'll be running it within the hour. Good luck to everyone! |
| Magagumo09-06-03, 10:55 PM | I have recieved tactics from Valuppa and Bonanza as well (sorry guys, between homework and an amazing 7 hr game I just finished DMing, I just now could get to it) |
| SnarkHunter09-07-03, 01:27 AM | Fights over! Valient efforts at deaths door! Thrills spills and surprises! See it all in the fight thread here! (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1267768#post1267768) |
| Moherajikuyx09-07-03, 12:41 PM | YEEAH that was great! Rito did a bet on the horse,secretly, and is now rich! :D One thing only, Jindl, Moon moon shall be given 2700 gps, 3600 is the prize for level 4 matches not for arriving at level 4 |
| SnarkHunter09-07-03, 01:16 PM | Duly noted. Don't have all that much to buy anyway. |
| Moherajikuyx09-07-03, 01:34 PM | Yeah better speak lowly as I do more errors than the newcome dms :embarrassEhm! Alathar, for style purposes, you're very welcome to write down any God on the sheet, even invented ones, and to add something like "rules as Cuthbert" to clarify: have a good time with your personal 1-guy-portfolio divinity!:cool: |
| Jindl09-07-03, 01:44 PM | Purse for Moon-moon's victory has been corrected. Congrats to the winners. While Jindl of the High Forest advances, Glorfindel the elf archer withdraws, to spend another century practicing (since he obviously needs it.) I'll update Jindl and post a new contender soon. |
| Alathar Vierce09-07-03, 03:12 PM | Awesome Mo, well I was guessing that due to Cade's horrible luck...that a person with the luck of Tymora by his side, would have better time :) They have basically the same portfolio, just the idea of the luck god fits more than the thief for roscoe heh |
| Magagumo09-07-03, 04:28 PM | I must say though, Glorfindel did have a nice resurgence at the end of her and Ander's fight. After all, he was nearly killed himself as she lay bleeding to death (Death to all animals, cohorts, and companions! :D) |
| Magagumo09-07-03, 09:21 PM | Hmm.. question concerning my new charcter. If I were to disarm an opponent while unarmed (thus acquiring the item or weapon), and then proceeded to win the fight, would it possible for me to keep the item? And if so, could I then sell it? ;) |
| SnarkHunter09-07-03, 09:34 PM | Both Moon-moon and Bilo are ready for the next fight I will conquer/have my revenge against my valiant/idiotic foes/victims. |
| SnarkHunter09-07-03, 09:37 PM | I would say somethign about being very greedy, even for a dwarf, but since I suggested the tactic it would probably be uncouth. How about this-since you have to sell it at half price anyway, the opponent (if you actually pull this off) can buy it back at half price. Not that I'm advocating everyon run around stealing junk from their foes. But if you approve Mo, well then its gonna get interesting. |
| Moherajikuyx09-08-03, 04:43 AM | Even though Rito Maya is quite tempted, I must say that I don't think this would be too good: - it would raise the punishment for characters that lose a fight, who already lost some potions, with no win money; - it would help the winners, and they already have the prize, giving more money than they should have at that level; - it would punish only weapon-dependent kinds of characters - darn! I was phoned and I forgot this one I would hate to have a warrior lose his only weapon, and with no money to repay it, have to retire the character. |
| Moherajikuyx09-08-03, 05:22 AM | Ugh, updating the roster and such needs more time than the fights. Next week I will make heavy use of all these valiant voluntary dms :) Some glitches noted, dms don't trust me to find all the errors this is a first check to find the bigger errors: a double check is needed when we fight. Pairings wednesday!!! Good :dice: :hoppingma we want blood! |
| greymouse09-08-03, 08:31 AM | Great fights everyone! Valuppa will have to remember to kill the horse first next time.:( Due to my very busy schedule this week, Valuppa and Corundum will just have to watch the matches and plan for the next round. They'll be back next week.;) |
| Moherajikuyx09-08-03, 10:26 AM | Yeah horses are nasty, tells me Rito Maya... I deleted the OK on your pcs Grey, see you next week. I thought Corundum was already edited. |
| Magagumo09-08-03, 01:28 PM | Ha ha! I have no dispute with Mo's ruling. After all, the same thoughts ran through my head as I posted, but "why not push the envelope?" I asked myself. Besides, I couldn't allow Snarkhunter's devious plan to go unquestioned ;). It could have been your weapon, Snark... or perhaps even your precious horse :D |
| SnarkHunter09-08-03, 06:55 PM | OH MY GOD! SOMEONE HAS PICKPOCKETED MY HORSE *sob* not my beloved Monk-Bane steed...why?!?!?!!!!111one |
| SnarkHunter09-08-03, 07:02 PM | Also when you do the pairings sign me up for another game to GM. I think the one game thing is working right now, given other duty's. |
| piwi09-09-03, 04:36 AM | Could somebody check if alton thorngage is oke this way:D |
| Moherajikuyx09-09-03, 06:34 AM | Done, together with Jindl! Alathar, don't be late, you're the last one missing! You have to buy Alathar's equipment, and to correct your new entry... Tomorrow, at 12:00 pm GMT+0 I'll roll the new pairings! |
| Moherajikuyx09-09-03, 06:46 AM | A new enlarger enters the fray, telling no one: was she trying to sneak in?... :cool: edit: wops she's a she :embarrass |
| piwi09-09-03, 07:50 AM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx A new enlarger enters the fray, telling no one: was she trying to sneak in?... :cool: edit: wops she's a she :embarrass Damn they noticed:( |
| Alathar Vierce09-09-03, 09:09 AM | Done and ready to go :P Roscoe ready to go too, stupid mistake feat-wise on my part heh :) |
| Jindl09-09-03, 02:28 PM | Since this is 3.5 core (PHB, DMG, and MM) then I assume that variant races/subraces are allowed only if they are listed in the core books. That would mean planetouched, duergar, and wood elves are all allowed as long as you use the MM guidelines. Well, I've got this idea for a tiefling assasin/shadowdancer, so enter Hy Denshadow. BTW: Piwi, check your racial modifiers on Silaqui. Wood elves get a +2 Str, -2 Int. They have no racial adjustment to Dex. (MM pg. 104) Also: Mo, I can handle up to two fights this weekend, but I probably won't get to them until Sunday. |
| SnarkHunter09-09-03, 09:37 PM | MO: I could go in and edit specific locations but I was thinking a bandolier arangement with a line of scrolls going across the chest from lower left to upper right (As oppossed to-and much more fun then-grenades). And of course enter w/ 2 scrolls in hand. |
| Moherajikuyx09-10-03, 04:05 AM | Alathar - good! :) Jindl - yupo all MM good! Even mounts... :) (Double check the wood elves, I believe they have +str-int in addiction to +dex-cos) SnarkHunter - cool! :D I guess it may work like a belt. for the 2 scrolls: don't you need the somatic component for scrolls? (Now they have arcane spell failure) If so you would need a free hand, may you check? |
| Moherajikuyx09-10-03, 04:21 AM | Tiefling in the arena! :smirk: Guys, it would be better if all of us used the same character sheet, life is complicated by itself already... :angel: I think I'll write down a standard character sheet, for copy & paste. |
| piwi09-10-03, 04:21 AM | Originally posted by Jindl Since this is 3.5 core (PHB, DMG, and MM) then I assume that variant races/subraces are allowed only if they are listed in the core books. That would mean planetouched, duergar, and wood elves are all allowed as long as you use the MM guidelines. Well, I've got this idea for a tiefling assasin/shadowdancer, so enter Hy Denshadow. BTW: Piwi, check your racial modifiers on Silaqui. Wood elves get a +2 Str, -2 Int. They have no racial adjustment to Dex. (MM pg. 104) Also: Mo, I can handle up to two fights this weekend, but I probably won't get to them until Sunday. That's not true read the rule book got it's says it's aditional to to normal elf modifiers otherwise look in your dungeon master guide under npc's and the wood elfs it clearly says +2 str, +2 dex, -2 con, -2 int |
| SnarkHunter09-10-03, 07:10 AM | Did I say two scrolls? Thats clearly wrong. Obviously Aliens have infected my brain and forced me to write gibberish for their own amusement. Pardon me whilst I retrieve a Tin-foil hat. 1 scroll when I enters the arena. Only one. |
| Moherajikuyx09-10-03, 08:15 AM | Pairings done! :smirk: Magagumo and Jindl, you have 2 fights this weekend (I will be away climbing, so I took only one): I hope you can handle it. There's no problem at waiting till sunday evening, the results shall be online by monday, so that we may enjoy them on the sad monday mornings :) Hy Denshadow was rolled out due to uneven number :( If anyone new posts a character before saturday, Jindl, you'll have the possibility of accepting the fight, after he chooses his equipment. SnarkHunter- May I have your pusher's number? |
| piwi09-10-03, 09:11 AM | oke now???????? |
| Jindl09-10-03, 10:36 AM | Ahh yes! I thank you for correcting me on the wood elf stats. I am starting in a campaign in a couple of weeks and am thinking about using a wood elf archer now (that +2 str and +2 dex is great!!!) |
| Moherajikuyx09-10-03, 11:16 AM | OK Piwi, thanks, but don't edit the character after the pairings next time. This time there's no problem only because I remember your equipment before the change. |
| piwi09-10-03, 11:41 AM | I only wrote down what my racial modifers were. it was oke already I only didn't wrote it down |
| Moherajikuyx09-10-03, 11:53 AM | Yes I know :) |
| Magagumo09-10-03, 01:16 PM | *edited post* Since I just learned that Snarkhunter would need to take the fight I was planning on running (since the other involved his character), and that i have till Sunday to complete the fights, I will be happy to go ahead and GM both. |
| SnarkHunter09-10-03, 04:25 PM | Mo: The pusher? his name is life and I'm on a natural high. *edit* I like pie! |
| SnarkHunter09-10-03, 08:28 PM | Mo? quick question. How did bonanza ( a dwarf-Favored class fighter) with 1 level barbarian and 3 levels cleric avoid multiclass penalties? Drat, really should have picked up on that before... Is this going to change the fight? If you need to edit your char I'm fine with that. |
| Imizael09-11-03, 05:27 AM | Is this still open for new players ? |
| Moherajikuyx09-11-03, 06:49 AM | Snark - actually we didn't ever even think about that, in the old threads... I don't know, are the others thinking that exp penalties should be considered? We removed entirely xp to simplify everything. Imizael - sure! If you want to post a character, read the rules in the gladiators (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=73069) thread and post a build! Newcomers are always welcome. |
| piwi09-11-03, 08:06 AM | I'm quite confidend(spell???) about this round for silaqui a little bit less about alton, I have a question how high is the arena and could i buy and hippogrif/pegasus for the price of a young plus the training price?????????(my riding has a bit to low hp) |
| greymouse09-11-03, 08:45 AM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Snark - actually we didn't ever even think about that, in the old threads... I don't know, are the others thinking that exp penalties should be considered? We removed entirely xp to simplify everything. Imizael - sure! If you want to post a character, read the rules in the gladiators (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=73069) thread and post a build! Newcomers are always welcome. Just to let you know I did retire Mini-Monk on one of the old fight threads due to the XP rule. :( |
| Moherajikuyx09-11-03, 09:05 AM | Hum, wasn't it for gaining levels in this order: monk-cleric-monk? piwi- yes, it's possible! It's in the MM, so it's completely core :smirk: The arena is described in the top gladiators thread post. I think it was 200' high. |
| greymouse09-11-03, 11:33 AM | Honestly, I can't remember. I'm thinking he was 4th level at the time I noticed and decided to take him out> I'd love to get rid of that restriction, so what ever everyone wants. |
| Jindl09-11-03, 11:42 AM | Well, my two cents on the multiclass xp rule... Currently the rules state that the winner gets enough xp to raise a level. For those with multiclass penalties, that just means they get more xp, because they still get enough to raise a level. However, this board is meant for optimizing characters, and only in the rarest of circumstances could a character with a -20% xp penalty be considered optimized. And IMO never could a character be optimized with a -40% xp penalty. So I would suggest allowing characters to have up to a -20% xp penalty. It would allow builds to have temporary xp penalties as they progress. For example, the fighter4/sor4/arcane archer4 will be a lot easier to advance if you don't have to keep the fighter and sorceror levels even as you progress your way up. Of course, your xp penalty goes away when the character reaches level 7, so it does become optimized later. Perhaps allowing a -20% xp penalty as long as the character is below a certain level (like below 10th level). Or requiring that a character has no xp penalty if he wishes to take a prestige class (and is still limited to a max -20% penalty if he does not take a prestige class). What do you guys think? |
| Magagumo09-11-03, 12:25 PM | Well, I canc ertainly see the difficulties in adjudicating the exp penalty, and I'dhate to see a fight canceled because of it. I would say, though, that the xp penalties were instated for a reason. In fact, they are a major reason why the half-elf and human are viable race choices (The other stuff is amazing, of ocourse, but versaitility is key as well). As dwarfs get a whole host of abilities, I thik the fighter favored class exists for a reason. While Jindl's idea of a permissible anmount of XP penalty isnt a bad one, I honestly think we should abide by them Thus, I would suggest that mo change to Barbarian w/o changing equip. Since he is actually losing 2nd lvl spells, this wont give him a chance to specialize against Snark's charcter (After all, Barbarian's aren't tricky characters, probably the most straightforward class.) In conclusion, Mo really should change it to 2 lvls barb, 2 lvls cleric, in order to follow the guidelines set by the Core books. Otherwise, I'd say he wouldbnt get enough exp to lvl, and that just gets really confusing for all of us. Sorry, Mo, nothing personal. |
| SnarkHunter09-11-03, 01:14 PM | Here's a thought on how to apply multiclass penalties without the necessity of adjucating exactly how much experiance people get. Gold penalties. given how gold costs and item creation costs have been done else where we could have people who level up with a multiclass penalty (Mo, if you should win that would be this next level) recieve along with the experiance necessary to go the the next penalty a smaller amount of gold. For a 1 class difference you would recieve 20% less gold, for 2 class, 40% and so on. This has the advantage of not giving Bonanza a free ride, but also not forcing a last minute chage of character. That's my 2c. |
| Imizael09-11-03, 01:57 PM | could u check my 2 characters pls. they are my first and second so i dont know is everything ok. How wizards pays for new spells ? do i have to buy a scrool and then pays normal cost for copying into spellbook ? do i get into arena with all my stuff including gold,spellbook etc (encumbance) or can i leave everything what is useless ? what if my familiar will die ? can i summon next one for 100 gp ? |
| greymouse09-11-03, 02:23 PM | Any extra spells you want to purchase above those you receive at a given level must be paid for(scroll) and then scribed (100gp per page). At 1st level your wizard will get 3+int mod of spells for free, at 2nd he or she gets 2 more for free. At 3rd they get 2 more (1st or 2nd level) for free, and so on........ You may leave things behind, just specify what they are. |
| SnarkHunter09-11-03, 03:17 PM | Imizael; for imitril, under feats you recieve scribe scroll as a bonus feat. You need to pay 100gp to summon a familiar, and you should say which one you are summoning. 1st level arcane scrolls only cost 25 gp so scribing them will only cost 17 gp so long as you have the spell as one of your known spells. Spot and listen use wisdom as the ability mod not dex. You should also denote them as cross class(cc) under how many ranks you have. Under AC, note any bonuses you could recieve after casting spells. I think thats everything for imitril. For Rizzen the only thing I could see is that you have your points spent a little screwy. It should be 16 pts str, 4 pts and 16 pts con. |
| Moherajikuyx09-11-03, 04:32 PM | Imizael - to get a new familiar you just spend 100 gp as if an year passed. I'm analyzing the various motivations. I can see some good in Magagumo's, SnarkHunter's and greymuse', and also Jindl's: which means, in all of the written reasons... I'll decide tomorrow, OK? If you have something to say, do it. (I mean anyone not only the mods! :) ) BTW, Jindl: do you wish to make Hy Denshadow fight with a random character of Imizael's two? |
| Imizael09-11-03, 05:16 PM | thx for checking them :) Now everything should be ok. I'm ready to rumble ;) |
| Jindl09-11-03, 07:01 PM | I really like the idea of allowing a max -20% xp penalty as long as you have no prestige class. That way, your 2nd core class (the one causing the xp penalty) is treated as if it were a prestige class. Although a gp penalty is a viable alternative, I think that the current system causes characters to end up with less than the correct amount of gold per level anyway. For example, take a 4th level character who has won 2 fights and lost 2 fights (at 2nd level and at 3rd level). Presumably he has used expendable, one shot items throughout this process. But he has only received gp for his wins. That means, at 4th level it wouldn't be uncommon for this character to have a total gp value of equipment significantly less than the DMG chart lists for 4th level. Of course a crafter (whether magical or mundane, like Bonanza and his inexpensively crafted mithral full plate, normally >10000 gp that he crafted for slightly more than 3000 gp) will have more equip than he should at 4th level. I guess what I'm saying is a gp penalty is much more harsh to a character who can't craft stuff than it is to one who can. I feel that the rule's regarding multiclass penalties should apply equally to all. As for the advantage crafters get on wealth, I think that its just a reward for the skill points/feats they spend crafting things! I mean after all, Bonanza could have chosen to put his attribute points somewhere other than Int, or his skill points somewhere other than Craft. I just think that a crafter feels less of a sting from a gp penalty than a non-crafter would. And I prefer an all or nothing rule:) BTW: Since a character can gain a wealth advantage through crafting, can a character also gain an ally through leadership? ie. can we bring a cohort in the arena? And if so how does their share of the xp get determined? Sorry to open this can of worms, but we have some characters that will be 6th level in 2 more weeks...and I'm sure some of them could do well with a cohort. And finally- Mo- since its already late Thursday, I think Hy (and the other new characters) should wait til next week. |
| SnarkHunter09-11-03, 08:32 PM | That is my exact plan for the Paladin, to get a cohort at 6th level. Probably a mount of some sort, though that caries its own penalties of course. When they level would they get npc money? Or would we be expected to get them items out of our own funds? Hmm I wonder what modifiers my leadership score would get? -2 special mount...+1 fairness and generosity. Yeah that sounds good. Hmm 4th level equiv isn't great though. I may wait till 9th level. For the multiclass thing I just don't want to make the prospect to apealing. Gold penalties instead of XP seemed a good bet since there have been other money vrs xp conversion-crafting items for instance For that matter what about spells with xp costs? No one can cast them yet, but I suppose an equivalent gold cost would work for them as well. *edit* btw Mo, your crafting check is a little higher then it should be, its based off int not wis. With your int penalty that would give you a +7 on the check. taking 10 you would get 17, which isn't enough to get th dc 18 you need to craft full plate. |
| Moherajikuyx09-12-03, 04:53 AM | Originally posted by SnarkHunter btw Mo, your crafting check is a little higher then it should be, its based off int not wis. With your int penalty that would give you a +7 on the check. taking 10 you would get 17, which isn't enough to get th dc 18 you need to craft full plate. [/B] ARGH I'll put the 3 skill pts from conc to craft :embarrass *xp penalty* I like Jindl's idea a lot, and grey too I guess, but let's use SnarkHunter's one. That's a bit complicated, but coherent with the rest: xps are in this tourney paid in gold (see the crafting). It has the advantage that it permits to use penalized characters, over Magagumo's idea. It has the advantage to penalize characters, over Jindl's. *crafting* I understand that 1/3 is too little, considering that crafting magic items costs 2/3; would 1/2 be OK? This simulates the time cost. *leadership* I don't know, the mount now is quite different from 3.0, and this shall be a one on one arena; we risk to have invisible wizards that wait that their dragon fellow finishes off the opponent. I really don't like it. We have to consider this well. *edit* about crafting: note that to craft for example a tome, you pay the full 2/3 cost, not the building cost. About gold penalty, that's this way: 5/6 the gold for 120% (6/5) xp cost to level; 5/7 the gold if 140% (7/5); 5/8 if 160% (8/5) and so on. |
| Imizael09-12-03, 05:22 AM | Is this possible that 2 characters of one player will fight agains each other ? are prestige classes allowed for higer level characters ? I know that I'm new here but here are my opinions : *leadership* in my opinion it shouldn't be allowed couse it would make an idea of gladiators fighting rather silly (1 agains 4 for example ) and if u get followers (for example 5 of 1 lev - archers) that would give u a great adventage + of course cohord at higher levels u would start with 20 characters at yr side (even 1 first level once what will give a lot for example to wizzy couse u will have to kill them to get a patch to him) Imagine sorrcerer with very high charisma ... *penalty for multiclassing* GP penalty is the best option imo *If all XP penalties are paid in GP a wizard should pay more to get new familiar couse of xp loos after death of first one* ps.Imitril changed so he should be ok now |
| Moherajikuyx09-12-03, 06:07 AM | Originally posted by Imizael *If all XP penalties are paid in GP a wizard should pay more to get new familiar couse of xp loos after death of first one* Good idea. But how much? |
| Moherajikuyx09-12-03, 06:23 AM | New meat added to roster, tactics sent, waiting tactics! :) The new players will have to wait next week, sorry pals. |
| SnarkHunter09-12-03, 09:49 AM | I think given how little gold players have at this level a 1-1 exhange for xp is good. Of course if we keep going for another 15 levels...well we may want to change the conversion around then. I've sent my tactics but have so far recieved none. I'll be running the fight saturday evening or sunday morning so get them to me by then! |
| piwi09-12-03, 12:03 PM | When do you make the fighting roster? I must have already send my tactis but I dunno who is my opponent???????:confused: |
| piwi09-12-03, 12:06 PM | can I still send tactics?????????????????sorry I was litlle late |
| Alathar Vierce09-12-03, 12:46 PM | Tactics for Roscoe will be sent in sometime tonight hopefully, been a hella busy week and at classes now, got to work after this....then after that, lol I'll have tactics in :) |
| KerlanRayne09-12-03, 01:18 PM | There is a new character named Tomar Vilir (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1313940/ post1313940) to be added to the roster. What do you think? KerlanRayne |
| SnarkHunter09-12-03, 01:59 PM | Hmm you have an interesting distribution of points. the 10 in Cha seems fairly odd. I like the 12 in wisdom though, will saves are forever a weakness of the single classed fighter. Bolas are an exotic weapon so you'd need another feat in that if you want to use them. I like the hooked hammer too. Consider potions of enlarge (I suggest them to everyone because they are very very good) it would help with tripping against difficukt opponents. Against easy opponents of course, you don't have to use it. Also consider a level or more in Barbarian, the rage bonus would add to trips and of course you'll deal more damage. |
| Jindl09-12-03, 02:39 PM | A gnome hooked hammer fighter. Cool! But, you need combat expertise as a prereq for Improved Trip. And without the exotic proficiency, you're bolas will be at -4 to the attack roll. BTW: Magagumo, you should now have Jindl's tactics. |
| Moherajikuyx09-12-03, 05:16 PM | KerlanRayne welcome, your character's already in the roster, but correct it as Jindl's right :) Looks like few people posted the tactics, let's move the day to tomorrow (saturday) 13:00 GMT+1. Next week I'll be inflexible though! :P |
| Jindl09-12-03, 08:32 PM | The fight for Skymoon Moonbow vs. Bonanza the Panza is posted. All I can say is we have a new "Core Arena" record for most damage dealt in a single attack. Had the unlucky recepient of that attack survived, he would have had to make a death vs. massive damage fort save! Congrats to the winner. Also- I have yet to receive tactics for Ander Brogaden. I will run that fight on Sunday. |
| Magagumo09-12-03, 08:33 PM | The cocnlusion on multiclassing suits me just fine, and I apologize to the DMs who desire my tactics.. (I am a lazy son of a gun you see). Finally, I think Leadership couldn't really hurt... a feat is a prohibitively high cost ovrall. Furthermore, Mo, take a look at Dragon ECLs... a hatchling Green Dragon alone has an ECL of 10.. so you have to be at least an 11th level charcter (and we know that a 5HD creature, even a dragon, cant survive a nice 6th lvl spell :)) |
| SnarkHunter09-12-03, 09:02 PM | Wow. That was a terribly impressive fight. At least I can go down in fight history (as the victem of the most powerful attack so far...ouch) Wow. Well I think I shall sooth my loss with a good drink (A hot toddy) and a good comic (second Trade paperback of Fables) and plan wonderful things for my fights this weekend. Good luck to everyone else! |
| KerlanRayne09-13-03, 03:34 AM | I'm done editing, is it OK now? KarlanRayne |
| Moherajikuyx09-13-03, 04:46 AM | :drool: I announce the Drooling Damage Dealer roster angle!!! :bounce: Snark - Bonanza (Bonnie for friends :D ) was lucky, pumping up that way's risky: I see now that if I lost init I would be over. Magagumo - if used as a mount it could be concievable, even if it's 3.0 splat stuff. The problem is if someone, flattened by the powerful mounts, decides to use it for having an ally. I would disallow that, it's an arena after all, and we all know that leadership is powerful: it gives you another pc, with all his feats, for a single feat. Other opinions? Kerlan - looks good! Galamdring - Tanya's got another feat, the fighter bonus :) The new pairings will be set on wednesday :88E: *edit* An orc walks in, selfconfidently.... :cool: (Is it me or the trend is to go melee? :cool: :cool: ) |
| Magagumo09-13-03, 10:08 AM | Heh, interesting note on the propensity for melee, Mo. In many "areans" that I have articipated in (Mostly MtG amongst friends) I have noticed an continual evolution that occurs amongst the combatants. Slow, combo decks are defeated by lightning fast speed decks, which are then defeated by defensive combo decks, which are then smashed by the old combo decks. Such is the way of things in life. Most of our first combatants have been tricky characters: Snark's rogue/wizard, my ranger/rogue, Mo's sneaky monk grappler, Jindl's summoner druid. But now, since these archetypes (which so often destroy pure melee at low levels) have moved into the higher ranks, a set of melees are joining the fray, looking to get their levels boosted to the point where they can whether the sneak attack or odd summon, and come roaring back with a crushing blow (Mo's dwarf cleric barb is close, but he's mostly a single shot pony (Though the last fight does throw this into question :)). As (hopefully) more people join this thread (since most of us are already supporting our two chars.) I wouldnt be surprised to see some pure magic to crush higher level oppositions (ranger/rogue and wizard/rogue are nice, but a 6d6 fireball can still annihilate you). Just my recent musings on this intriguing thread :) |
| Moherajikuyx09-13-03, 11:00 AM | I'm a bit less enthusiastic about more and more people entering the arena... Unless some more begin to mod! *-*' Running more than 2 fights a weekend shall be prohibited by the convention of Genevre :angel: |
| Moherajikuyx09-13-03, 12:11 PM | Devon vs. Silaqui Holimion done. What can I say... The weel of luck turns, and when it does, it does completely... You may check the unbelievable rolls on the online roller. :bigeyes: :mymy: :looloo: |
| piwi09-13-03, 01:20 PM | I want to dm but I don't understand that online roller thing |
| LLMadCow09-14-03, 12:01 AM | Devon has been updated, and Lothar should be just about done, except for some clothing. I have yet to decide what he will wear. :) Please doo take a look at my characters and remember that all input is welcome. |
| SnarkHunter09-14-03, 01:48 PM | Mac vrs Roscoe posted...it was very long. Interesting though. |
| Imizael09-14-03, 05:51 PM | can i use craft(poisons) couse as far as i know poison with dc to craft are in DM (sry but i have only SRD - enought cash spend at 3.0 books :\ and i'm not sure about this) and question related to it - can we use poisons at all ? couse i didn't find them in srd (we are playing with srd or 3 main core books ? ) for craft skills we always take 10 ? crafting masterwork item requires dc 20 ? I will change Rizzen Pharn a bit but need more informations ;) does expertise and full defence stacks ? whats the dc for spells from scrools ? i edited Rizzen and changed items od Imitril |
| SnarkHunter09-14-03, 06:57 PM | To use expertise you need to take an attack action, so, it could stack with fighting defensivly. But not total defense. For the poison thing, I'm gonna have to check into it. Edit: Well there isn't any listing but I think you could assume a craft Alchemy check DC 10+injury DC vrs the listed price. There are other rules for this but they're non-core. |
| Alathar Vierce09-14-03, 07:33 PM | I thought taking of weapons was not accepted? Or did I miss a ruling somewhere. If looting of disarmed weapons is allowed, what say a character can't loot everything off the opponent? |
| Magagumo09-14-03, 07:58 PM | Hey MO, I just glaneced at the fight between Devon and Siliqai (sp?) And as an owner of a disarmer, I wish to note that it is not possible for a person to disarm their opponent with a ranged weapon (ie. the wood elf could not have been disarmed by Devon, as he only held a bow). I know this wouldnt have altered the fight, but I just wanted to update you on that. (Would be nice if you added your rolls in; I'm sure it was legit, but Silaqui would have had a +10 from her size, sc, and 2-handed, while Devon had a 0 [-4 from non-melee, +4 from 2-handed]. Obviously, this doesnt take strength, attack bonus, and die rolls into account, I just notice that the rolls were swung heavily in her favor), One note on fighting defensively, you can only take it on a full-round attack, so Combat expertise remains more useful (as you can use it on a standard attack). Oh, one more thing. Recently, Snark and I were discussing the presence of an orc in the gladiatorial ranks. More imprtantly, I pointed out that the orc had darkvision, but also suffered from light blindness. Now, as of this point, I do not belive we GMs have established the daylight in these bouts, simply that it was sufficient to see by. As an orc is far more powerful than say, a half-orc (+2str vs only a -2 to wis) w/o light blindness, and since darkvision is a major advantage for both of these races, I wonder if we shoudl insititute a time of day for these fights. We could roll a d6 prior to the fight (1-2= bright daylight, 3-4 indoor lighting (no penalties), 5-6 (darkness). The time of night would be announced with the pairings, so players could consider it in their tactics. Of course, this requires torches and requires us to decide lighting at night.. but I think it could add an interesting element :) |
| SnarkHunter09-14-03, 09:41 PM | Alathar-the taking of weapons during the fight is acceptable. But the weapon is returned at the conclusion. So you don't have to buy a new one, and the monk can't sell it. Edit-also Mo Devon's attack bonus with magic weapon was one higher then it should have been. The enhancement from magic weapon does not stack with the enhancement from being a masterwork longbow. |
| Galamdring09-15-03, 03:23 AM | Tanya does have the fighter bonus feat... it is under fighter's special abilities... :) About the fights... i haven't post default tactitcs yet... But the character is ready to jump into the arena... I will mail my tactics to the moderator as soon as i see the pairings... |
| LLMadCow09-15-03, 03:46 AM | I really like the idea of a time of day aspect to the fights. It could be bad for me, and other various races, but it could also be good. It would be a fun variant and make things more interesting. Just my two cents. :cool: |
| Moherajikuyx09-15-03, 04:53 AM | Great fights guys! I'm quite against the darkness idea, it's a total setback for non-darkvisioned races. I think fights shall be always in daylight. |
| Imizael09-15-03, 05:08 AM | I vote for daylight only - couse darkness will unbalance fights. i could run fights but i dont know rules to good + i will have problems to write the whole descriptions in english. I can make one fight a week (simulation only) so u could tell me what i'm making wrong - some time and i could run fights ;) anyway i would like to so i could try to learn. - there is about 20 character with only 4 mod - over 2 fights to run each week... >>taking 10 you would get 17, which isn't enough to get th dc 18 you need to craft full plate. if i make item from mithrall do i have to pass DC 20 for masterwork item first or mithrall makes items works like masterwork but DC is as for normal armor ? and does masterwork full plat got armor check penalty of -3 or -4 (-1 for masterwork ) |
| Moherajikuyx09-15-03, 08:13 AM | Hi Imizael! Consider yourself recruited! :) Don't worry about errors, as you see, I do some too, and I'm the oldest mod here... :embarrass We just know that mods err. Fights aren't ever redone, though, so you have to run them carefully, going to check any doubt you incur in in the srd (http://www.wizards.com/D20/article.asp?x=srd35). Also, read very carefully the arena rules (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=73069). To craft special materials usually they're masterwork, so yes to craft mithral and adamantium you have to reach DC 20. The rules are these, even though I would set the DC to 30 for mithral and to 40 to adamantium (and I do, IMC). The masterwork bonus is already counted in the mithral description. |
| Moherajikuyx09-15-03, 08:17 AM | Piwi, you're recruited too :) To use the online roller, go on http://krisinchico.brinkster.net/rolldata.asp and do some tries with unused names. You just have to fill all the fields all the times, if there's no bonus simply write +0. About the english, oh well, my english isn't perfect either. I find it easier to write it directly in english, translating is more difficult to me. |
| Moherajikuyx09-15-03, 08:26 AM | Magagumo and Jindl, it's monday, will you manage to run the level 3 fights today? |
| Imizael09-15-03, 09:41 AM | ok so i would not make simulation fights then. how about i will send u the fight(e-mail)befor putting it into forum so u will check it ? - will it be ok ? |
| LLMadCow09-15-03, 09:43 AM | Stansard Races Human Dwarf - Darkvision 60' Elf - Low-Light Vision Gnome - Low Light Vision Half-elf - Low Light Vision Half-orc - Darkvision 60' Halfling SubRaces Deep Dwarf +0 - Darkvision 90', Light Sensitivity Grey Dwarf (Duergar) +1 - Darkvision 120', Light Sensitivity Mountain Dwarf +0 - Darkvision 60' Aquatic Elf +0 - Superior Low-Light Vision Wild Elf +0 - Low-Light Vision Wood Elf +0 - Low-Light Vision Monster Races Goblin +0 - Darkvision 60' Kobold +0 - Darkvision 60', Light Sensitivity Orc +0 - Darkvision 60', Light Sensitivity Aasimar +1 - Darkvision 60' Gnoll +1 - Darkvision 60' Hobgoblin +1 - Darkvision 60' Tiefling +1 - Darkvision 60' Definitions Darkvision: An extraordinary ability possessed by some creatures that enables them to see in the dark. Light Sensitivity: Creatures are dazzled in bright sunlight or within the radius of a daylight spell. A dazzled creature takes a -1 penalty on attack rolls, Search checks, and Spot checks. Low-Light Vision: The ability to see in conditions of dim illumination as if the illumination were actually as bright as daylight. Low-Light Vision is the ability to see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditins of low illumination. Superior Low-Light Vision: The ability to see in conditions of dim illumination as if the illumination were actually as bright as daylight. Superior Low-Light Vision is the ability to see four times as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditins of low illumination. :teach: Quote by: Moherajikuyx I'm quite against the darkness idea, it's a total setback for non-darkvisioned races. I think fights shall be always in daylight. So you are against Humans and Halflings being penalized? 2 out of 7 Standard Races have Darkvision 3 out of 7 Standard Races have Low-Light Vision Half of the Subraces have Drakvision and the other half have some form of Low-Light Vision. All of the Monster Races (available for the Arena) have Darkvision with 2 of them having Light Sensitivity. 12 out of 20 Total Races have Darkvision. 6 out of 20 Total Races have Low-Light Vision. 2 out of 20 Total Races have 'Standard' vision. Realistically, having varying light conditions in the arena would make perfect sense. If anything, the lighting conditions should favor the darker conditions, considering that 60% have Darkvision with another 30% having Low-Light Vision. I would suggest rolling a d6 and going with: 1 = Morning - Dim Illumination 2 = Mid-day - Bright Sunlight 3 = Afternoon - Bright Sunlight 4 = Twilight - Dim Illumination 5 = Evening - Darkness 6 = Midnight - Darkness Or you could go the extreme route of a d20 and go with: 1 - 12 = Darkness 13 - 18 = Dim Illumination 19 - 20 = Bright Sunlight This would be interesting and would take into account a single shared aspect of the character races that is, thus far, completely ignored and being treated as flavor text in the arena setting. |
| LLMadCow09-15-03, 09:56 AM | PS - Someone might want to copy and paste the list of races onto one of the main pages, just so that there is an easy to find list of what races are playable within the arena. Just a suggestion... |
| piwi09-15-03, 10:45 AM | it doesn't work |
| Jindl09-15-03, 10:55 AM | Regarding illumination: If there is every anything short of brightly lit, then everyone will have total concealment at the start of the fight (nobody can see 205 feet in poor illumination. This gives rogues a huge advantage! It also makes the use of long range spells difficult. It gives melee fighters an advantage over ranged fighters and spellcasters (because they will have to get close enough to see them.) If you are worried about creatures with light sensitivity not being penalized, then cast "daylight". Also note that many of the light sensitive races are racial enemies of dwarves and gnomes (thus a dwarven pc like bonanza could both cast daylight and receive a racial bonus to hit vs an orc pc.) As far as nullifying the "advantage" of lowlight or darkvision, we could allow characters with these abilities to be able to see within the confines of the darkness spell (the lowest level version only). Overall, I 'm against changing illumination. The point of the arena is that all of a characters abilities work normally. For example, there is just enough grass to use entangle, the ground is rock enough to use stone shape, etc. It's a level playing field. Random illumination just makes the results of the fights more random. It slopes the playing field towards specific classes and specific races. I'm against it. Just my 2 cents... |
| Imizael09-15-03, 10:57 AM | but most of them have darvision 60 Human Dwarf - Darkvision 60' Elf - Low-Light Vision Gnome - Low Light Vision Half-elf - Low Light Vision Half-orc - Darkvision 60' Halfling 2/7 got darkvision(subraces should be taken in consideration couse humans shouldnt be penalized becouse they dont have subraces ... ) this would penalize archerchs any race without darkvision couse low-light vision gives u nothing in darkness condition. u shouldnt compare all reces avaiable (who cares that aquatic elf got low-light vision ?- or monster races like kobolds goblins etc - ) but u should consider from players now in game. in my opinion it is better to not use darkvison that making it a breaking balance ability. darkvison rolled for archers = fight loss even if he will get potion of darvision (only 60 ft so we will be able to shot once before opponent will get into close combat) as for wizards and sorrceres - one spell befor opponent will get to close combat. It is logical that fights for crowd are not in total darkness(!) not to mention characters using mounts (low light vision only what would make them useless ) and same with animal companions of druids and their summon nature allays so as far as i can see dark conditions penalize every one exept dwaren and orcish melee fighters. one more thing - consider that characters with darlvision aren't penalized in bright light (exept orcs(+4 str is indeed a big favor)and deep dwarf - no one plays with it ) and one ability (darkvsion) will give them about 70% more chances of winning in 1/3 of combats. a situation where players will have to search for each other for a long time is also possible in such conditions. in my opinion it will break the game balance btw:whats the point of arena having 300ft if 1/20 characters will see at 120ft in darkness ? should we changed it to 60 ? how about much more abilities which are useless - track wild emphaty,+2 racial to search etc etc but we can vote - it will be fair couse arena is for fun of all players so if more players will want it we should do it. but even then i would make dark contions at 6(d6) only. however - this ability is important and is consider when making a races balance's so we could give something in place of useless abilities (gold or skill points are the only ones which make sense) but how whould u price all abilities like track wild emphaty +2 to appracice etc - we should leave it behind |
| Galamdring09-15-03, 12:48 PM | I have updated my character with the default tactics... Just in case i don't mail personalised tactics... The updated version is in the "post your builds" thread... Thanks... |
| LLMadCow09-15-03, 02:28 PM | Each race has their own abilities that make them different. Some things are flavor text and others game balance issues. The dwarves have stone or gem cutting bonuses. Odds are that won't come into play. I personally view it differently when a race has useless features vs when a class has useless features. I am more in favor of something to compensate for useless race features than useless class features. Example - When I choose to play a bard in the arena, what is the point of me being able to inspire my allies...? What allies? Useless or not, there has got to be some reason I chose to play a bard. Anyway, if not at lower levels, then lighting should be an issues at higher levels. The arena should grow and change some as we advance. Magic items and new abilities come into play as we advance more... |
| Caterane09-15-03, 03:18 PM | Hey, I want to fight in the arena! What do I have to do? |
| SnarkHunter09-15-03, 03:30 PM | Its terribly easy...no thats a lie, but it's fun to do anyway. First go here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=73069) to look over the rules for character design and to look at some of the more succusful and/or interesting builds to get an idea. You could also go to this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=69954) thread to see how some of the builds have actually faired in the fights. Once you have an idea, type it up and post it on the gladiator thread. After that (assuming everything is nice and legal of course) you'll get selected for a fight this wednesday! Weee so much fun! For the lighting thing. Originally I was in favour of different times of day, but given the arguments here I think I was wrong. Being dazzeled isn't a terrible penalty, especially given the benifits (-1 to attacks but the +4 str gives a total of +1 to attacks and +2-or +3 with a two handed weapon-to damage.) recieved from the orcish race. The best sollution is the one that benifits the greatest number of people, i.e. playing in daylight. Not the greatest number of races perhaps but last I checked, most of the combatants were human. That's all. Oh and this weekend I'm thinking two fights should do me. That seems about standard for most DM's and lord knows I like to keep up with standards. |
| Caterane09-15-03, 04:44 PM | Easy enough. My build`s coming soon. Hope it doesn`t drown in the hundreds of posts here. How do I advance in level? |
| Jindl09-15-03, 05:00 PM | Again, sorry for the delay. Rito vs. Ander is posted. It only took 3 hours to run ;) Well, it was sticky... |
| Imizael09-15-03, 05:30 PM | caterane u post it in special topic with characters only (link at the beggining of topic) u advence in level when u win a fight + u get more gold |
| Imizael09-15-03, 05:57 PM | few questions : 1.AC from wisdom is an insight bonus (as far as i can remember) and it should apply vs touch attack (i'm not sure) 2.according to FAQ about grappling any try to grapple more then once in a round get -20 to grapple check (not sure about this either but my DM told me that) 3.Does beeing flat-footed has any influence at reflex saves ? very interesting fight i cant wait for my characters fights :D |
| Caterane09-15-03, 06:21 PM | --- deleted --- |
| Caterane09-15-03, 06:27 PM | Does my Gold refill at the beginning of a new battle or does it go to the next fight? |
| SnarkHunter09-15-03, 07:45 PM | Cat, gold does not refill. Adequate resource managment is essential if you want to survive for a while. Same for items you used. They are gone unless you by them again. Also I was looking over your character and he might have to change. Well he well, you just decide how much-Divine might is non core (not in the 3.5 players handbook or Dungeon masters guide or Monster's Manual) so you can't use it. Also if you could delete the post in this thread of your character that would be nice. We like to keep things uncluttered. yeah...Homework time! Magagumo you better run that fight right quick. Or I'll cut you. Don't think I won't. |
| Jindl09-15-03, 09:41 PM | Imizael- In response to your questions (and Mo, Snark, Magagumo please correct me if I'm wrong): 1. The wis bonus to AC for monks is a separate named bonus. It applies at ALL times (works just like a deflection bonus, it just has a different name.) It does (and in the fight it did) apply as part of Rito's touch AC. Ander made a touch attack when Rito was flatfooted (he had come out from hiding.) Therefore Rito's touch AC did not include his dex bonus. 10 + 3 wis + 2 deflection from shield of faith = 15. 2. A character can attempt to grapple as one of his iterative attacks during a full attack. Anytime you could swing a sword, you can instead try to grapple. The -20 penalty while grappling occurs when you want to grapple and at the same time retain your dex bonus vs opponents who are not part of the grapple and threaten squares around you while grappling. So, in this case, Rito can attempt to grapple as each of his attacks, subject to any modifiers (like the -2 for flurry or at higher levels, the -5 for iterative attacks). 3. Being flatfooted means you lose your dex bonus. Period. So yes, you lose your dex bonus on reflex saves when flatfooted. That's why uncanny dodge is a good thing. Unfortunately, monks dont get uncanny dodge (but shadowdancers do...) Please feel free to ask any other questions :) But understand, according to the arena's rules, we don't rerun fights. But as GM's we try our best to be fair moderators. We really try to avoid mistakes (that's why this fight took me 3 hours to run. I had to repeatedly refer to the books to make sure everything was right.) Sometimes we will make mistakes. But heh, we're all human, right? |
| SnarkHunter09-16-03, 12:43 AM | Yes...well, that went about as I expected. A few quibles; that 1 (and only) crossbow bolt should have done three damage, what with PBS and all. The crossbow in question is a a small heavy, not a light. The DC vrs nausiation was actually a 13 (augmented summoning). I'll note here that Moon-moon who had been watching the fight proceed, though he approved of the painful end of bilo, has purchased an elixer of firebreathing, for the express purpose of use against any swarms summoned upon him. Also both characters updated for this weeks fight. |
| Caterane09-16-03, 01:06 AM | Damn, without Divine might I won`t be strong enough to fight in the arena. Ok, I`ll post another one later that day. Have to go to work, you know |
| Imizael09-16-03, 04:42 AM | Flat-Footed: A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, not yet reacting normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity from SRD - nothing about loosing bonus to saves There is no GM who doesn't make mistakes.Its all for fun and to improved our knowledge about rules.I know that fights aren't rerun and that wasn't my point :) i only wanted to point it for the next fights (of course if im right couse i dont have core books so i can be wrong ) |
| Moherajikuyx09-16-03, 05:31 AM | GREAT FIGHTS! Some in the crowd murmer, he must be one of those legendary "drunken masters." "No," say the others," he can't be. They're not core in 3.5" :rofl: Illumination - so that's it, the arena is in a brightly illuminated cavern: no daylight penalties, full illumination. Imizael, flurry is not 2weapon fighting. Grab in the 3.5 specifies that 2wep fighting is not allowed during grapples, while saying nothing of flurry, so a monk may do a full attack action, and use flurry. It's his only advantage over a fighter. |
| Imizael09-16-03, 06:55 AM | after cearfull study of all rules i must admin that i was wrong about grapple improved grab isnt the same as improved grapple -thats where i make my mistake.(*** is about improved grab) sorry for trouble ;) and how about dex bonus to reflex saves when flat-footed ? was i wrong here too ? |
| Caterane09-16-03, 07:31 AM | 4 questions: 1. How do I advance in level? 2. Who tracks my gold? If I am on my own on that I could cheat (not that I would ever do such a thing) 3. How many spells does a wizard get? 4. At which point do I prepare my spells? Thanks Cat |
| Imizael09-16-03, 07:51 AM | Originally posted by Caterane 4 questions: 1. How do I advance in level? 2. Who tracks my gold? If I am on my own on that I could cheat (not that I would ever do such a thing) 3. How many spells does a wizard get? 4. At which point do I prepare my spells? Thanks Cat 1.For each fight u wil win u advence one level (if u lose u stay at your level ) 2.u get 1000 gold at the begining and some gold after winning a fight(constable value) - your character card is public so its not difficult to check in it 3.wizard get all 0-level spells and 3 1-level spell +his int modifier. at each new level wizard get 2 new spell from any level that he is able to cast. also u can buy a scrool with a spell (standart pricec from dm) and write it into your spellbook for a cost of 100 gp per page -time used for do it is not importand 4.u preper spell when u send your tactic to moderator of your character fight at which point u know who your opponent will be.It is also recomented to put default list of spells preperd along with default tactics in case you will be unable to send specific tactics befor fight. feel free to ask any questions |
| Moherajikuyx09-16-03, 08:02 AM | Imizael - can't believe that: you catched Jingl wrong this time :bow: from the srd (emphasis mine) Flat-Footed: A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, not yet reacting normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity. So, reflex save are not touched by flatfootedness. About grapple, they should write clearly "may do a full attack" to tell the truth, now it's open to interpretation. As many other things. :( Cat - I strongly suggest to read the first post in the >gladiators thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=73069)<, where there are all the rules: no problem in answering of course, but you probably will find useful stuff there. About the gold, in all the fights the mods post your actual build, so if you have wrong amounts it can be easily tracked there. :angel: All: tomorrow pairings day! :angel: |
| Jindl09-16-03, 10:55 AM | Thanks for correcting me on the flat-footed vs reflex saves... BTW: Jindl did use a perishable item... 1 thunderstone. I gotta tell you, I was worried about facing Bilo. He's got a lot of potential attacks, and its very hard to be prepared for someone who can cast any scroll from his library and add sneak attack damage... It's much easier to prepare for the one trick ponies ... Good fight! |
| Moherajikuyx09-16-03, 11:07 AM | Caterane - I don't think the sun elf is core, can anyone check? Jindl - yeah. |
| Jindl09-16-03, 11:09 AM | Sun elf is the FR name for a gray elf. To make it core, use the gray elf from the 3.5 MM It has the same, well, the same everything as a sun elf (except of course the name...) |
| Imizael09-16-03, 01:15 PM | Sun elf +2 int - 2 con grey elf +2 dex +2 int -2 con -2 str |
| Caterane09-16-03, 01:35 PM | Ok, changed him to High Elf so it has no effect on the stats. It confuses me: Sun Elfs are also called High Elfs in the FR and Moon Elfs are sometimes insulted as Grey Elf (grey means waste in the elven tongue) but the stats say that Sun = Grey and Moon = High!? Another question: Tomorow the pairings will be anounced (btw: who has the say there?). When do the fights start? Cat |
| Caterane09-16-03, 01:40 PM | Oh, and how can I link my character so that - when I click on the link - it dirrectly goes to him? You did that with all characters on the core arena page. |
| Moherajikuyx09-16-03, 02:32 PM | Cat - there's an explanation on the bottom of the roster post, on the gladiators thread. I don't know FR a lot, that's one of the reasons I founded this thread :) Piwi, please post if you're OK with running a fight before tomorrow. |
| SnarkHunter09-16-03, 04:55 PM | Jindle-given the current state of my finances I figured I could go all out and hope to pull of a win...but if I don't my chances are severely compromised. Right now Bilo despretly needs $$$ and until he gets it (like going against one of them one trick ponies...mmm) he aint risking nothing. Aside from the occasional rude gesture. Mo, before you do the pairings, you currently have Roscoe as level 3 and Mac as level 2. It was the other way around, mac having won and all. Even so, Halflings-Dwarves, who can tell em apart these days? |
| Magagumo09-16-03, 05:26 PM | And on coattails of Snark's last comment, Mac is all set to be posted as a 3rd level combatant :) Hopefully, he and Ander never meet. |
| Caterane09-16-03, 05:28 PM | @Mohera: Didn`t get it. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=######/post###### ok, but where`s the number? There is no number hovering over or under the Quote sign. |
| Imizael09-16-03, 06:21 PM | I posted one more character who is ready I will run fights so i can do it right ? however i see that all of u got 2 characters so if u feel that 2 characters should be the limit then dont roster Aris :) |
| greymouse09-16-03, 06:24 PM | My two fellows are going to be spectators this round, again.:( Just have not had the time to update them, kind of got side tracked with the on-line adventures. I'll try for next round, fight on. |
| SnarkHunter09-16-03, 07:15 PM | wow, well that will make the 3rd level fights interesting...interesting indeed. |
| Moherajikuyx09-17-03, 04:06 AM | Opsss! I'm turning them. Cat - if hovering you see a link like http://boards1.wizards.com/newreply.php?s=&action=newreply&postid=1350431 then the number would be 1350431. |
| Caterane09-17-03, 07:13 AM | ok, got it. When and where can I see the pairings? When does the actual fight occur? |
| Caterane09-17-03, 07:19 AM | oh damn, I don`t get this ***** browser to go to my character. Can anyone please post the correct link to "Ebelin Barnahdy" http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=######/post###### number is 1342174 I tipped: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1342174/post1342174 What did I do wrong? |
| SnarkHunter09-17-03, 08:25 AM | put a # instead of a / between ...174 and post1342174 without a space as well. Conversly you could copy this shortcut <URL=http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1342174#post1342174>Ebelin Barnahdy</URL> replace <>'s with []'s. |
| Moherajikuyx09-17-03, 09:58 AM | :pile: PAIRINGS DONE! :pile: Egh it's becoming complicated. Sadly Piwi didn't update his level 1 pc, so they were uneven; I rolled Caterane's pc, but he's got only one, while Imizael you got three, so I decided to let him play taking one of your places: I hope it's ok with you :( I'll use that as policy from now on. About the mods: I have 1 match - but with the druid :D - and the roster keeping. The other experienced mods have two fights, the new two have a level 2 fight. And now, TO THE PAIRINGS! Try to send them for friday, so that we may run the fights friday evening or during the weekend! :) |
| Jindl09-17-03, 11:13 AM | Hey, Should Snarkhunter's email be: hennest (at) alleg.edu or hennest (at) allegheny.edu ??? |
| SnarkHunter09-17-03, 12:26 PM | Actually either one works. |
| Caterane09-17-03, 12:53 PM | I have to wait till friday? :( @Jindle: Good luck |
| Imizael09-17-03, 04:22 PM | Mo no problem - players with only one character should never be skiped in pairings - its a fair rule :) i got one question - if i get both tacticts for exampe today - do i have to wait till friday (becouse of possible change of tactics ) ? |
| Caterane09-17-03, 04:26 PM | @Imi: my tactics are finished but I keep it until friday just in case I want to change something I was wondering why there is just the few of us. After all, this is supposed to be great fun!! |
| Moherajikuyx09-17-03, 05:10 PM | Imi - that's up to you :) Cat - you don't know how time-expensive is to run a fight! :-! Having more of us would be fun, though! Only, a bit hard to organize: if moderators have to run more than 2 fights a week, I see that they flee after a while :) |
| Caterane09-17-03, 05:21 PM | @Mohera: Then why not stay with 2 characters and don`t run a fight? Well, if you are short of moderators I can run a fight at a later time but at the moment I want to grow more accustomed to this tournament. |
| Moherajikuyx09-17-03, 05:51 PM | Very good! ;) |
| Caterane09-17-03, 05:59 PM | Perhaps we should limit the amount of characters. What about having 3 at the most and only if you are going to moderate a fight. Additionally you can only create a new character if your other characters are at least 2 levels apart. Example: you can`t create a new Pc until your first one is level 4. You can`t create a third Pc until one is at least level 4 and the other at least lvl 6. ...at least until we have more moderators |
| Moherajikuyx09-17-03, 06:17 PM | Maybe a bit too harsh... |
| Caterane09-17-03, 06:59 PM | helps Imi not fighting himself :) I keep it with Ebelin only |
| Imizael09-17-03, 07:27 PM | Is troglodyte able to cast spells with somatic components ? I send tactisc for Imitril and Rizzen I will make fight as soon as i will get tactics of second player |
| SnarkHunter09-17-03, 09:13 PM | Tactics from Rizzen and Mo recieved, as opposed to my usual slacker tendancies I'll likewise run the fight as soon as I get tactics. Gonna be some good ones, I can tell. :D |
| Imizael09-18-03, 04:23 AM | tactics recived :) |
| Magagumo09-18-03, 12:27 PM | I have everyone's tactics, but piwi, Alton no longer has the oil and the two potions. As you may recall, I ran your last fight, and you used all three items and a few arrows (check fight thread). Since a level 4 charcter can only have 5.4k max, there is simply no way you could have purchased those potions again. Thusly, I will run your fight w/o the items, but you need to update your character at the conclusion of your fight. Word to our newcomers: If you didn't hear, items you use in your fights, whether you win or lose, are gone. Conservation of resources is extremely critical, thus why you may see us "oldtimers" use next to nothing.., ;) |
| SnarkHunter09-18-03, 11:13 PM | finished the level 5 fight! Wow! WOW WOW WOW! I liked it a lot. |
| Imizael09-19-03, 03:55 AM | great fight. one question : when bonanza cast a spell defensivly an fails the spell is lost but there is no AoO.Or i just missed something ? BTW:I finished the fight but i send it to Mo if he could check it befor posting it.It should be today if its ok. |
| Imizael09-19-03, 05:50 AM | Fight posted I hope u will enjoy it.It's my first fight so please be indulgent. |
| Moherajikuyx09-19-03, 06:34 AM | Great fights! :) |
| piwi09-19-03, 09:54 AM | Originally posted by Magagumo I have everyone's tactics, but piwi, Alton no longer has the oil and the two potions. As you may recall, I ran your last fight, and you used all three items and a few arrows (check fight thread). Since a level 4 charcter can only have 5.4k max, there is simply no way you could have purchased those potions again. Thusly, I will run your fight w/o the items, but you need to update your character at the conclusion of your fight. Word to our newcomers: If you didn't hear, items you use in your fights, whether you win or lose, are gone. Conservation of resources is extremely critical, thus why you may see us "oldtimers" use next to nothing.., ;) ow Moherajikuyx said he was okay sow I expected that he could still use them |
| Moherajikuyx09-19-03, 10:28 AM | I thought you bought them back. |
| piwi09-19-03, 11:07 AM | please look if I dm'ed this one good? |
| Caterane09-19-03, 11:30 AM | @Piwi: I`m glad anyone takes his time to moderate a fight. Some comments to the fight, though (you asked for it): Perhaps you could describe it a bit to enhance the flair. Then, I would love to see the rolls. At which Ebelin did Hy throw his shuriken (me or image?). Then I noticed that my Pc just moved 1 or 3 squares when he could move 60' as I wrote he always moves around (why else should I cast Exp.retreat?). Greets Cat |
| Caterane09-19-03, 11:32 AM | @all: Is there any possibility to print the arena map? |
| Caterane09-19-03, 11:47 AM | You forgot to mention that I also used up a scroll of Exp.retreat and a scroll of silent image... ah, the paladin in me |
| Jindl09-19-03, 02:07 PM | Sorry for the delay in delivering tactics...Hurricane Isabel knocked out my electricity yesterday morning. I'm at work now and will be sending tactics for Jindl vs Skymoon, as soon as I can. As for Hy, guess that LA +1 is a killer. He is withdrawn to be replaced by new meat next week. |
| SnarkHunter09-19-03, 02:37 PM | Cat: Printing the map could be tricky, I don't think the carriage returns would transfer properly. Still I assume with enough wackyness you could persuade Word to allow such a thing. I just represented people on my home battlemat with pennies and slips of paper. All you really need is somethign to track people with. Imi: If one fails the cast defensively check you get an attack of oppurtunity, there's no avoiding that. The spell is lost though. I made a mistake (not that it affected anything) by letting Bonanza attempt a second concentration check to save the spell. Jindle: no rush, glad you got through the hurricane all right. Piwi: please remember to post e-mailed tactics before you get to the meat of the fight. Also its a little better if you post what the roles and modiefiers were for most actions (hide, spot, attacks and so forth) it lets us check you over if you missed anything for the next time. I wouldn't worry overmuch about spelling, if you have a word processor you can set it to English and have it check the spelling. Can get some odd turns of phrases that way though :rolleyes:. Other then that it looks good! You'll get better the more fights you run. I'll be running my second fight later today. |
| Imizael09-19-03, 05:08 PM | from SRD : Casting on the Defensive: Casting a spell while on the defensive does not provoke an attack of opportunity . It does, however, require a Concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) to pull off. Failure means that you lose the spell. imo there shouldnt be attack of opportunity |
| SnarkHunter09-19-03, 09:28 PM | Hmm okay I was wrong about that. bonanza would have had exactly 18 more hps at the time of the crit, for a total of 31. Technically the crit would not of killed bonanza only incapacitated, but I think we can let that slide for the sake of artistic merit. On a side note; HOLY COW MOON-MOON BEAT JINDLE!!!!!!111one that is all. |
| Jindl09-19-03, 11:09 PM | Congrats, Snarkhunter- Mo- A few things (forgive me if these are out of order, every time I re-read the fight, I find new things to bring up). Skymoon's warhorse only has 30 hps (as MM) not 45. Every time he tries to spur his mount, he has to make a DC 15 ride check, he has a ride of +9. Did he make the check every time (he spurred the horse 5 times). Wouldn't that have done 1+2+4+8+16 = 31 points of damage to the horse and killed it (even without the heat metal spell and the damage from the bats?) What about the bat's damage and wounding ability on the horse? If they affected Skymoon, the must have affected his mount as well. And did the horse make the fort save vs. DC 13 to avoid being nauseated (and thus only able to take a single move action?) If Skymoon was nauseated by the bats, then why did he never take damage from them? It appears he was in the swarm at least two rounds (rounds 12 and 13) and he should have taken 2d6 +1 wounding points of damage total from those two rounds as well as 2 points of wounding damage every round from 14 thru the end. Where's my bat damage? Heat metal affects one target/level, so one casting would have had the chance to affect both Skymoon and his horse. Jindl would not have had to cast it twice (and waste an action during round 11). What happened to my flaming sphere spell? It does 2d6/round with a reflex save to both the paladin and his horse? That was supposed to be my major attack spell? If I cast entangle 10 feet in front of the horse (as my strategy dictated), then even if it made its save, it could only move at half speed, which would leave it at the most, 50' ahead, and still within the 40' radius entangle. That means it must make another reflex save before it's turn. Did it actually make a DC14 reflex save 6 times with its +5 reflex (thats twice per entangle casting, due to the strategy I just restated)?? How much damage did the produce flame do that hit Skymoon in round 6? In round 12, if the horse had -1 hps, why didn't it fall and the paladin be forced to dismount? If the paladin was nauseated in round 12, he should have only been able to take move actions (and therefore cannot lay on hands.) Did the paladin take wounding damage from the bats? And what happened to them after they were summoned? When Jindl was casting entangles and backing away, why was he only moving 50' per round? His strategy said explicitly that he would double move on "Dozen" for 100 feet a round? To cast that scroll of bull str while charging, Skymoon would have had to make a concentration check of DC 15 + 2 (PHB pg 157). Since he uses concentration untrained at a +2, I wanted to know if he made that check? If Jindl ate 8 berries on round 12, shouldn't his hps have gone up by 8 (and not 2) ? Of course on this board we as a general rule don't rerun the fights. But I can't help feeling like this one deserves some examination. Take a look at how differently this would have gone if just some of the above had been done correctly. His horse should have died several times. If that happens, he can't approach Jindl because "Dozen" double moves to keep plenty of distance between them, and Skymoon doesn't have any ranged weapons. The bat swarm continues to attack him, doing wounding damage that eventually kills him. If all of the above were corrected, how do you think this would have turned out? |
| Moherajikuyx09-20-03, 06:39 AM | Darn, I know Jindl, I was a bit sleepy running that one. About the spur, it says "subsequent spurs", so I made the spur count restart in the rounds where he didn't spur. I counted 30 hps, not 45. About entangle, you're corect if the horse goes straight forward; but if he turns of just one degree, he's out of the range. He can because the charge is not possible, so he turns. About concentration while charging, the charge didn't occur, the horse moved only one action, so no conc. The horse was laidhandsed on the turn start, not at the end. Jindl did only 1 move action to not have to do a conc check, but when he saw the paladin escaping the last entangle he moved twice and did the check. The other stuff is correct: I missed the multi target of heat metal, that's why Jindl didn't have flaming sphere. Sorry for the errors, Jindl is complicated :embarrass |
| SnarkHunter09-20-03, 09:05 AM | Well the spur damage only increases on consecutive rounds. So if I spur for three rounds (dealing 1 then 2 then 4 points of damage) then do something else for one round, the next spur will only do 1 point of damage. About the other stuff, Mo this is-I'm sorry to say, a fairly consistent problem for you. If you'd rather you could match the fights between Jindle, Bilo and similarily complicated folk to another DM. on the other hand the more we point this out he less likely you are to do it in the future :D. |
| Moherajikuyx09-20-03, 09:10 AM | Yeah I'm going to do it. Relieved :D |
| Caterane09-20-03, 09:41 AM | 1.) Oh, please don`t post the fight results here on the comments board. I don`t want to know the outcome in advanve. I`ve bet on Moon though. 2.) We could also improve the fights board by posting a BIG post prior to the first fight (of the week) so that everyone easily detects the new matches. I scrolled at snail`s speed just to prevent reading the outcome of any match. 3.) Could anyone update the Roster, please? Want to see who`s in the Lvl 3 league |
| Moherajikuyx09-20-03, 10:28 AM | I usually update the roster on mondays. |
| SnarkHunter09-20-03, 01:52 PM | Finished Rizzen and Tanya's fight. Good fun all around, its nice to have a simple one after my first ;). Good luck to everyone for the next round! Edit: Quick question Galamdring, I couldn't help noticing the last name of your combatant...her and Moon-moon...cousins? Mmm? mmm... |
| Jindl09-20-03, 02:02 PM | Nicely adjucated, Snark. I'd like to suggest including a standard stat block for each combatant after every round in a fight. The block would be: Name, location (x,y), current hp/total hp, spell effects, conditions I would treat mounts, animal companions, summoned monsters, etc. as additional combatants. For area effect spells with durations, use the notation (spell name, center x, center y, rounds so far/total duration). That way, we would know where the entangles are on the map :) For conditions, things like rage, entangled, nauseated, stunned, etc... This would make it much clearer to understand the mechanics of the fights. What do you guys think? |
| SnarkHunter09-20-03, 02:40 PM | To do this it would certainly be convienent if people could modify the Core code arena on their own computers. Well as it so happens I just figured out a way to copy the properly formatted code arena into word. Open up a blank word document. In the taskbar under insert choose text box, then vertical (horizontal would work too, but I haven't tried it. Expand this box so it takes up most of the page. Then copy the whole of the code arena and paste inside the box. Select all the text and set the size around 8 or less and voila! your own personal Code arena you can futz with and edit to your hearts delight. You can for instance cut and paste positions of various combatants and easily reference thier position. Err, if you don't use MS word your on your own I'm afraid. Anyway, I think thats a good idea, and once we get used to the format not terribly difficult to keep up with. Edit: I just realized, I can e-mail that to any mods who want it. |
| Jindl09-20-03, 04:49 PM | Hey I just noticed something... To be a cleric of St. Cuthbert you have two choices for your alignment, lawful good or lawful neutral (PHB pg. 30 under Alignment). So Bonanza must have a lawful alignment, which means he loses the ability to rage. Of course, he could be neutral and have those two domains if he chose to be a cleric of no particular deity (pg. 32) What do you guys think? |
| Caterane09-20-03, 05:35 PM | @Snark/Mohera: Could you do me a favor and moderate my next fight? I love your narrator-style and half the thing about fighting in the arena is the story @Snark: Good work! Now that I have the arena map I am able to moderate a fight. Count me in. @Jindl: Great idea to standartize the combat result block. I like that suggestion of yours. You have my vote. |
| Caterane09-20-03, 05:39 PM | --- deleted --- |
| SnarkHunter09-20-03, 05:43 PM | Thats another thing I like about modding fights, improves my DMing skills in two important ways, adjucating rules correctly and creating evocative descriptions. Good skills over all. As for Mo... Former follower of St. Cuthbert now worships the concepts of Strength and Destruction? Meh. |
| Caterane09-20-03, 06:27 PM | @Snark: Do we have a deal then? |
| SnarkHunter09-20-03, 07:07 PM | Well I don't do the pairings but so long as one of my characters aren't fighting I don't have a problem with it. |
| LLMadCow09-20-03, 09:26 PM | Are we allowed to pay to have masterwork weapons or armor upgraded? If you look at the prices and such, you should be able to pay the difference, otherwise characters would have a harder time owning weapons if we have to sell our +1 weapon at half price to have some gold towards our new +2 weapon. Just a question.... |
| Caterane09-21-03, 03:14 AM | After watching the fight between Rito and Aldon (Wow!!) I asked myself if we are using the Instant kill rule. The dog scored a double 20, but the Mod didn`t confirm for a second time... |
| Magagumo09-21-03, 10:36 AM | First, about Bonanza, I agree with Snark's explanation, as it does not say that barbarians must not be lawful to use their abilities. Edit: Snark and Jindl have both informed me of the error(s) of my ways.. this will teach me not to read carefully enough ^_^ Also, this would finally explain why Bonanza isnt going to Barb/cleric route I would have expected, thus explaining the XP penalty. Two, you can pay the difference between, say, a +1 and +2 weapon to upgrade, so no need to sell off old stuff, just make it better. Third, I am not a huge fan of the triple 20 IK, mostly b/c it is a variant, and we run pure Core here. On the other hand, I did roll a third time for my own amusement... *whistles softly*. and rolled a 7, so no go :D Finally, Snark's Core map through Word saved me a lot of time on this last fight, I highly recommend it. |
| Jindl09-21-03, 11:10 AM | Magagumo- It does say that a barb who becomes lawful loses the ability to rage. That's why Bonanza is not lawful nuetral. He has to be non-lawful to rage. But you must be lawful to be a cleric of St. Cuthbert... I also don't like the instant kill variant. A crit is enough randomness for me... |
| Caterane09-21-03, 12:21 PM | @Mohera: You can add me to the moderator`s list. EMail: Caterane (at) gmx.de |
| SnarkHunter09-21-03, 02:36 PM | Excellent fight Jindle! Though I may be a bit biased in my evaluation :D. Did you like the new system for trackig participants? I think its a fine addition. edit: as for casting defensivly, my con check would be so low I'd have a better chance just getting a high AC and avoiding hits all together. Seems to of worked so far! (err...if the uh...2/3 win/loss ratio isn't an indicator of 'worked') Anywho bilo's updated now (its either that or study so...) but I'm gonna wait to update Moon-moon just in case. |
| Caterane09-21-03, 04:54 PM | Don`t want to join the nitpicker`s guild but Valuppa Zanzzabar has way too much items for his level (3) and as a possible foe in my next battle I thought it necessary to mention it. He owns a wand of magic missile (2250 Gp), a scroll of invisibility (700 Gp) next to plenty of other stuff. The 2 items alone are more than you are able to own at his level (2700 Gp max). |
| Jindl09-21-03, 05:26 PM | Snark- Glad you enjoyed the fight. It took a while to run (so many spot/listen/hide checks...) If you look at MacMillan's tactics, you can see the Magagumo predicted how the fight would go (he mentions being outclassed in spot and listen). Too bad he couldn't "deflect" your spells. As for waiting to update Moon-moon, I don't know if Mo plans to re-run that fight. As you know, there has only been one fight re-run so far, and it was done at the request of the winner. While I would love to see a re-run of Jindl v Skymoon, I don't know if he plans to do it. Of course, he did only have 1 fight this weekend. Well, if you (being the winner) want him to re-run the fight, maybe he will. There's certainly enough ?'s about it to merit that. But if you want to keep the outcome, I'll go along with it (since Jindl didn't use any resources.) But be warned, once killed, the druid will not be such a nice guy anymore... you think entangle/summon swarm is bad... wait 'til you see his newest tricks (muhahahahaha). Okay kinda went overboard there:) Still, lets see what Mo thinks about doing a re-run. |
| Magagumo09-21-03, 05:37 PM | Ah, it is with a wink and a tear that I must send MacMillan to the pits of "could-have-beens". I must admit, it was fun exploring disarming rules. But never fear! His replacement will be fierce indeed :) I hope Ander does well in the fight against Devon.. his record has been less than sterling, and I would hate to have to replace two characters due to poor performance. Otherwise, I might be trapped in the realm of Lvl 2 chars, and where would be the fun in that? ;) Anyways, I suppose studying is in order for me as well. Note: KerlanRayne- Your damage on the hook hammer is one too high (only str based, rem that masterwork does not count for damage). Besides that, I finished that other fight. I promise it was as tumultuous and unpredicatable as the one last night... How do I keep ending up with the battles like these? :) |
| greymouse09-21-03, 05:54 PM | I'm going to take a leave for a while, go ahead and take Valuppa, and Corundum off the list. Been doing this since May and feel the need for a break. Keep the fights coming, I enjoy reading them. All you Mods are doing an excellent job. Caterane, don't know why I was thinking he got 2700 after his last fight, but your correct. Sorry, missed that one. |
| SnarkHunter09-21-03, 05:54 PM | Much as I do love a win, any paladin worth his salt would feel just awful if it was achieved by low means. So, Mo, old beau if you have no other pressing arangements you have my vote to go ahead and re-run the fight, keeping in mind attendent comments. I fear that window of oppurtunity is a short one though. |
| Caterane09-21-03, 06:09 PM | WOW!! The fight between Tomar and Imitril`s been a killer! I laughed my a$$ off as the Grey tried to CDG him 4times!!! and failed *lololololol* *rofl* Anyway, Magagumo did a brilliant job in story-telling. Keep up the good work! @Magagumo: Hey come on! You can´t take MacMillan out!! I loved this dwarf!! @Snark: Why do you re-run the fight? You are the winner!? |
| SnarkHunter09-21-03, 07:49 PM | But am I really? Am I really? |
| Jindl09-21-03, 08:24 PM | Ander vs Devon is posted... Two human rangers, both with favored enemy human, one male, one female, both specialized in archery. Sounds like the makings of a good fight. At least I hope it was a good fight, it took 2 hours to run. Compared to Bilo vs. Macmillan which was quickly done in 1 hr 15 minutes... |
| LLMadCow09-21-03, 10:33 PM | Can we sell items we already own? And if so, do we get 1/2 cost, 3/4 cost, or what? I figure sooner or later we will want to sell something and buy something else to replace it... |
| Magagumo09-22-03, 12:35 AM | 2 hours, huh? :) Wow, thats a rather short fight overall. The last two fights have each taken me almost 4 hrs a piece. Not that I'm really complaining, I love Moding, but those things certainly steal a chunk of your time ^_~. Neverthless, I certainly appreciate you MOding them, Jindl. You certainly have a firm grasp of the rules, as well as pleasant style of narration and turn of phrase. It's sad, but "out of hand" left me laughing for a solid minute. *sighs* I still have to find someway to stat those boys.. just need a gargantuan giant and 12 levels of wizard, cleric, or sorceror... Shame I don't run an epic game ;) |
| SnarkHunter09-22-03, 12:59 AM | LL: sell items for half price |
| KerlanRayne09-22-03, 03:19 AM | Actually the damage was not off by one point. Tomar has +3 from strength but since it is a two handed weapon, it's x1.5 which makes it +4 to damage. With the correct +4 to damage I had down, I would have won. No Reruns right? KerlanRayne |
| Caterane09-22-03, 03:24 AM | @Mohera: It`s Monday ;) |
| Moherajikuyx09-22-03, 04:22 AM | Originally posted by Jindl Magagumo- It does say that a barb who becomes lawful loses the ability to rage. That's why Bonanza is not lawful nuetral. He has to be non-lawful to rage. But you must be lawful to be a cleric of St. Cuthbert... Darn! :( Bonanza reassumes all the stupidest multiclass rules of the D20 system. I'm sick, I drop him. About the rerun, I'm sorry but I'm not planning to do it, I manage to barely gather the time on weekends: mondays are horrible, at work. And I have to update the roster now. |
| Caterane09-22-03, 04:27 AM | @Mohera: Don`t forget to add me to the Moderator`s list! Caterane (at) gmx.de By the way, now what`s this thing about rerunning the Moon-Jindl fight? Any severe mistakes like Moon-Moon casting a power word or Jindl riding a tarrasque mount? Oh, and please don`t remove Bonanza. There already droped too many combatants out (especially @Lvl3) and Bonanza is one of the well-known pc. And where in Cyric´s name does it state that St.Cuthbert Clerics must be lawful? They must not be EVIL, but lawful seems ok. |
| Moherajikuyx09-22-03, 05:04 AM | Yeah, too bad. At least level fours are even. I wouldn't know how to correct him, if what Jindl says is true (I have only the SRD, not the manual.) And doing a philosophy cleric is too cheese for me. We only miss the fights from our youngest moderators, I hope they will do it soon. We'll leave them time till this evening. |
| Moherajikuyx09-22-03, 05:06 AM | PS: nice fights BTW. I must write in the strategy to hit the enemies and not their dogs, though... :rolleyes: |
| Caterane09-22-03, 05:57 AM | What about making some kind of "Hero`s Graveyard" where we post all characters who didn`t continue |
| Moherajikuyx09-22-03, 07:12 AM | Originally posted by Caterane What about making some kind of "Hero`s Graveyard" where we post all characters who didn`t continue Bought :) |
| SnarkHunter09-22-03, 07:44 AM | Cat: before you go to far with that Bug bear there. To enter the tournament you need an Effective Character Level (ECL) of 2. ECL is calculated by adding the level Adjustment (LA) to the hitdice of the monster. In the case of the bugbear thats LA 1+3HD=ECL 4. So not a valid character...with 1 cleric level you would actually have an ECL of 5! A bit much for the rest of the second level guys, sorry. |
| Caterane09-22-03, 07:57 AM | @Snark: So I can`t enter at Level 5 I guess... :mad: And I had that good a story :rolleyes: @Mohera: What about the roster update? Need to know my next victims :D |
| Magagumo09-22-03, 09:21 AM | Actually, Kerlan, I messed up on the damage, as it should have been less on the off-hand. A Gnome hooked hammer, at least in the double-weapon fashion you were using it, is not treated as a two-handed weapon. Rather, it is treated as having a 1-handed weapon and a light weapon in your off-hand. Thusly, the damage is 1d8+3 (Str bonus) and 1d6+1(3/2 rounded down). Imitril actually had more life than what I had listed. Sorry to say, but your numbers are wrong. As for the dog in the fight, Mo. I am very well aware that one hit would have killed Alton, but I also think we have to assume these are like regular combats, and that the mounts and companions are combatants too. While I admit, this makes it tricky with Jindl's horse (who certainly has more hp than him), I think the fact that the dog was in your face mauling you (and basically standing b/t you and Alton) would make the requirement for at least knocking in down (SF was atttempted on the first blow, but it didnt connect.) Perhaps this is faulty logic, but I do believe that in this circumstance, the need to fight the dog was justified. I'd hate to have the death or injury of a comapnaion as a stipulation to winning a fight, so just make sure you can kill the combatant w/o a coup de grace (as that would have drawn an AoO from the dog). Also, I will be updating Ander shortly, and presenting my new arena fighter in MacMillan's place. Btw, Mo, Rito is a fantastic combatant, utterly vicious and very impressive. I wouldn't recommend getting rid of him ;) Finally (lighter note) I too understand your pain Cat. I have dreamt of several chacrters that would function if this were a 3rd lvl fight arena.. :-D But honestly, Mo, I have to say that this system is fanatastically inventive and efficient. I ran arena fights in my one campaign last year, and the biggest diffculty was lack of cover and fighters being too near one another. This set-up has fixed both of those problems, and I will definetely incorporate it if I run Arena battles again. |
| Moherajikuyx09-22-03, 10:14 AM | Originally posted by Magagumo Rito is a fantastic combatant, utterly vicious and very impressive. I wouldn't recommend getting rid of him ;) Who said I'm getting rid of him?! He's the tourney official loser, I'm proud of him! Only, to fight against poor animals, almost doubling the others' hps, I fear that Rito's running out of money. I already don't have all the potions I'd like. I hope to have an easy fight soon. And, I will not buy a guard dog only to see my hps doubled, that looks way too cheesy. I don't understand this: Originally posted by Magagumo I'd hate to have the death or injury of a comapnaion as a stipulation to winning a fight, so just make sure you can kill the combatant w/o a coup de grace (as that would have drawn an AoO from the dog). You don't need a CdG to kill people. Actually, it's seldom needed: probably only by sleeper arcanists. Others are better off making all their attacks. |
| Moherajikuyx09-22-03, 10:16 AM | Cat - the roster is updated BTW: only missing, the lacking fights. |
| Caterane09-22-03, 12:42 PM | @Mohera: You probably missed it but the fight Ebelin vs. Hy has been completed long since. Same with Roscoe vs. Lothar. Please update Ebelin Barnahdy and Lothar the Orc to the Level 3 League! Ebelin Barnahdy vs. Hy Denshadow (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1373344#post1373344) Roscoe Goodkeg vs. Lothar the Orc (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1371992#post1371992) |
| Jindl09-22-03, 01:08 PM | Cateranne - Ebelin bought a masterwork longsword for 165 gp, should have cost 315 gps. And, I have a new entry to replace the fallen Hy Denshadow... Introducing the ugliest character in the arena (Cha 4 !!) Karse the Duergar Barbarian!! |
| Caterane09-22-03, 01:22 PM | @Jindl: You`re right. I thought it the same price as it is with [Ma]armor. Didn`t use it anyway. |
| Magagumo09-22-03, 01:22 PM | I realized later that a single strike would have killed Alton too. Sorry about that Mo, I suppose I was caught up in the theory that the dog would continue to attack you, thus the confusing statement regarding helpers. If you'd like, it's quite easy to adjudiocate that Rito won, as the unarmed strike is quite easy to roll, and minimum damage would have done the trick... (You needed to roll anything but a 1 I believe, so I wouldnt mind running that last round if you wanted) So, for the official word, ithe fight is over as soon as a person hits -10, correct? Even if their mount, companion, dog, etc. could still fight them (and theoretically kill the winner, as was the case in this fight)... |
| SnarkHunter09-22-03, 02:21 PM | Well then Jindle, with any luck we shall soon meet on the field of battle, and thos ewho should be smitted shall be smote...or smitten...or however that works. Say since Moon-Moon has an intelligent mount (and its a magical beast) does it need to learn tricks? Anywho Moon*2 is ready, and Magumbo I don't think rerunning a fight-particuarly this late- is a good idea. (This is why you run them Friday. Gives you plenty of time to go back and fix things) |
| Jindl09-22-03, 02:31 PM | Hey Snark, Moon-moon's horse has as many hps as Jindl's horse !?! BTW: In 3.5 a paladin's warhorse is a summoned creature. Watch as I buy a potion of protection from good. Muhahahaha! As for tricks, all heavy warhorses start out knowing the combat riding purpose tricks (6 tricks!!, see Handle Animal skill). So your mount does already know these tricks. Also, it takes a full-round action to summon your mount for a duration of 2 hours/level. So at 5th level Moon-moon's mount lasts 10 hours, and therefore cannot be summoned the day before. What I'm gettin at is you can't enter the arena with your mount. You have the spend a full round action to summon him during the fight. The following round you could presumably use Fast Mount (see Ride skill) to mount as a free action before starting your charge tactics. Man, they really nerfed the paladin's special mount from 3.0, huh? Ah well, they nerfed animal companions too ;) |
| SnarkHunter09-22-03, 03:44 PM | Hmm, Well the prebuff is for spells and summoning a mount is a spell like ability. Given the crippling disadvantage that would give me otherwise, I think it would be appropriate that the class feature of a paladin's mount could be used as it was intended to be used. A replacement for a normal existing mount. If folk disagree with my assessment, then I will unsell my old mount and continue to use it. I find the prospect less then appealing but sometimes thats the way of things. Also, though the mount is called from the celestial planes it doesn't say that the mount has the [good] subtype, so I assumed it didn't. |
| Jindl09-22-03, 03:48 PM | Ahh, but protection from (alignment) prevents summoned creatures from touching the you, so your mounts natural attacks can no longer harm me. :) Regarding spell-like prebuffs, My Duergar Barbarian has both enlarge person and invisibility as spell-like abilities. They are his race's defining abilities and he pays for them with a +1 LA. Does that mean he can start combat already invisible and already enlarged?? I would say no, but that is the same reasoning you have for your special mount. Of course, when the spell like ability has a duration of 24 hours, then pre-buff all you want. Your special mount will reach that duration at 12th level. My Duergar will never reach that duration on his sla's. PS: Protection from good will also give me a +2 deflection bonus against Moon-moon's attacks (as he is good aligned) and +2 resistance bonus to saves vs. spells cast by Moon-moon (like prayer...) |
| SnarkHunter09-22-03, 03:57 PM | Well I already have hide from animals for the bats. Woo! Now we both have two mounts! ...what fun |
| Jindl09-22-03, 04:01 PM | Hide from animals makes you invisible. Bat swarms have blindsense, and attack simply by sharing your space, so ... the total concealment from invisibility is useless and the bats know where you are with their blindsense so they can still fly up to you and share your space - auto hit and damage. Hide from animals is still a good way to prevent "Dozen" from attacking you, but he could still scent you out. And the invisibility effect ends after you make your first attack, making this a very, very poor spell... for the arena anyway. Might have some uses in the campaign, especially during overland travel. EDIT: Also, I'm not giving out any more hints on how to beat Jindl... |
| SnarkHunter09-22-03, 04:18 PM | Poor? Really? Animals cannot see, hear, or smell the warded creatures. Even extraordinary or supernatural sensory capabilities, such as blindsense, blindsight, scent, and tremorsense, cannot detect or locate warded creatures. Animals simply act as though the warded creatures are not there. If a warded character touches an animal or attacks any creature, even with a spell, the spell ends for all recipients. Sure if your directing them they'll find me...but on their own, or if you can't see the enchanted person, it would be kind of tricky. Until I attack of course. |
| Moherajikuyx09-22-03, 04:51 PM | Originally posted by Magagumo If you'd like, it's quite easy to adjudiocate that Rito won, as the unarmed strike is quite easy to roll, and minimum damage would have done the trick... (You needed to roll anything but a 1 I believe, so I wouldnt mind running that last round if you wanted) And losing the special position as arena top loser? No way! :) Seriously, even though you tempt me, the no rerun policy is really the better way, people: I've seen it in already 4 arena threads. The rule is: the first to die, loses. This limits a bit the importance of pets, which are already very heavy. I was thinking about adding a limitation, limit: 1 ally, so druids and paladins are favoured by the more HDs of their pet, not by another pet. Considerations? (Note that I'm modifying the rules as time goes by, to reach an optimum of balance. See the rules on crafting.) |
| Moherajikuyx09-22-03, 04:55 PM | Originally posted by Caterane You probably missed it but the fight Ebelin vs. Hy has been completed long since. Same with Roscoe vs. Lothar.[/URL] I - AR - DAMB Imizael, Piwi, you both did a wonderful job, sorry for not having seen that before! I'm going to update now!!! |
| SnarkHunter09-22-03, 04:59 PM | heh I just logged in and updated myself. edit: okay the one ally thing...it really messes up Moon*2. but all right, we'll see. |
| Caterane09-22-03, 05:37 PM | About the animal thing: One animal is fair enough. A fighter with a horse that wins ini can cut any wizard down before he takes one step. Having another companion (let`s buy a hippogriph, woohoo) is absolutly broken. This whole arena thing is about the abilities of the humanoid participants and not who owns the best/most companions. Another thought: What if I take Leadership and my Cha is high enough to attract dozens of followers, including a cohort just one level below mine. Can I drag them all along into the arena??? What`s up? It`s a class ability!! I don`t think so. :mad: @Magagumo: Could you please NOT delete MacMillan since his removal will cause the lvl 3 roster to be uneven. |
| Jindl09-22-03, 06:17 PM | I see the problem with having more than one animal for each fighter. But in effect what you are saying is barbarians/bards/clerics/fighters/monks/ and rogues can each buy an animal. Druids/Paladins/Rangers/Sorcerors/ and wizards can not buy any animals, because their CLASS ABILITIES already cause them to reach the 1 animal limit. I think this is a bad idea. Druids/etc should be able to exceed the 1 animal limit because they have the class ability to do so. They should not be penalized because they have a class ability. Besides, at 5th level any caster could easily cast an extended summon spell that would last 10 rounds, voila, instant ally that exceeds the 1 animal limit. The fact that you can focus on killing the PC without having to also kill his/her animals is enough. As for worrying that the 2nd level fighter with a horse will beat the 2nd level wizard, why doesn't the wizard also buy a warhorse. (Or just color spray them both!!!) It simply isn't fair to limit some of the classes and not the others, especially when you are limiting the primary ability of some of these classes. Animal companion is a major element of the druid class. Familiars are major elements of the sorc/wiz (heck its the only class ability a sorc has!!) Paladin mounts are major class abilities of the paladin. It just doesn't make sense to say that a fighter can start with a warhorse, but the druid can only start with their animal companion (even if that companion is an owl, or somesuch.) Of course, you can't go no animals for anyone, because it takes away all of your mounted combat builds! The rule we have been using that each character can buy 1 animal, and have any additional animals as per class abilities, is a good and just rule. I think we should keep it. BTW: Thanks for pointing that out, Snark! I didn't realize that hide from animals negated blindsense. Oh, and summoners (druid or otherwise) cannot control the creatures brought in by a summon swarm spell. It states this in the spell description... Regarding Leadership: Leadership is not a class ability. It is a feat that is listed in the DMG. Why is it in the DMG, I'll tell you. Because it is an optional feat. Simply put, its optional. And I think that we should simply disallow the feat for the the purposes of the arena. Pick another feat instead :) |
| Moherajikuyx09-22-03, 06:28 PM | Yeah, already talked in this thread and leadership is off in an arena. Originally posted by SnarkHunter okay the one ally thing...it really messes up Moon*2. Actually, you might as well use the bought animal in the arena, as long as you don't summon the other one in fight :) Jindl, I'm more of the idea that a pet each still favours the druids and paladins: their pet is way better than the others'. *edit* I tell this with some foreknowledge: my old good druid, Baron von Richtofen, in one of the last arena threads, was rapidly a winner. Druids are really strong, with more allies than any other gladiator. BTW... While the combatants discuss about their pets, something fishy's going on................... :angel: (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1143621#post1143621) (new meat - and fish - added) |
| Caterane09-22-03, 07:01 PM | @Imizael: Please update your Grey Elf to the most recent standard. Your spellbook doesn`t contain all spells you`ll probably`ll throw at me and updating the profile 5 min before the pairings are anounced is a bit late for me to adjust. @Jindl: As for worrying that the 2nd level fighter with a horse will beat the 2nd level wizard, why doesn't the wizard also buy a warhorse. (Or just color spray them both!!!) Because he lost initiative. Barbarian on 60' fast mount (240' on run), attacks (or dismounts as free action and charges) ...it doesn`t matter: he`ll cut the flat-footed wizard down in one clean hit. Druids/Paladins/Rangers/Sorcerors/ and wizards can not buy any animals, because their CLASS ABILITIES already cause them to reach the 1 animal limit. Well, I think they are a bit better than their "normal" counterparts, eh? Besides, at 5th level any caster could easily cast an extended summon spell that would last 10 rounds, voila, instant ally that exceeds the 1 animal limit. Damn, you´re right. This (3rd level slot occupying) celestial eagle will rend the soul from the barbarians flesh. Sorry for getting sarcastic but that is a spell; something completly different. I think a Hold person would hurt more. @Brotherhood of Animal Ranchers (short: BOAR): What about banning bought animals altogether? So, Druids & Co. can still have their companions but it limits the amount of deer running around and concentrates more on the MAIN combatants. This is an arena, not a zoo! Look, at the moment - as we are low in level and short in coins - we see riding dogs and horses. But it will not stay that way as we advance in level AND it will get out of control once the price for a [Insert insane combat companion] is of less an issue than it is now. I can imagine that we won`t find any combatants who do not ride a flying steed of some kind which ruins the whole Gladiator flavor. I vote for 'animals out'!! *steps to the arena door and hammers something onto it:* http://tubes.ominix.com/art/a/misc/no-dog-poo-sign-01.gif |
| SnarkHunter09-22-03, 07:27 PM | Okay Cat, first of all the barbarian can not kill the flatfooted wizard becuase they start 120 feet apart and there are some very large stone pillars in betweeen the two of them. Same for mounted characters, even with a lance, the angle's all off to charge. So far, at this level, the first turn kill is impossible. But it will be possible someday, and let me tell you who gets it. 7th level wizard. Phantasmal killer. It has a range of 170 feet, fail the saves and your dead. No apeal, no mitigating circumstances. Just dead. Given that possibility people can plan against it, devise tactics and strategems. And the same applies for animals. Worried about summons? Protection from [_____] they can't attack you. Freaked out about Jindles pets? Get a bunch of hide from animal potions, I won't stop you. The only question then is, given that, how important are animals in a fight. Right now they can be significant sure, a warm body often is. But what are you worried about, Spider Eaters? Sleep! for goodness sake has an excellent chance of making them drop (+2 will save). And if you're a fighter and your trying to kill someone on one? Well either they have a +15 handle animal skill or they paid 6000 gp for one. At higher levels they, and kin, just get less and less significant. Basicly I don't understand where this creature hate is coming from. If you're worried about your opponents critter mention that in your tactics. A DM works in a void. If you don't say anything about Jindles horse, I say "Okay not an issue." and let things develop as they will. If you say "use Tanglefoot bag on horse!" Then I will! and chances are good you'll deprive him (and any other mounted combatant) of a valuable tool in the fight, and potentially swing it in your favour. I vote critters and companions stay. |
| Magagumo09-22-03, 07:53 PM | As only the main combatant has to be dead for him to lose the fight, I think multiple animals isn't a huge problem. Yes, the Mod has to deal with one more "mouth to bite", but Snark's right, they are already getting less effective. Case in point: Alton's dog needed to roll a 17 to hit Rito while he was grappling, and a 20 to hit him otherwise... except for the extremely unlikely circumstance in which 2 20's were rolled, that dog would have done little harm to Rito. Another point, is that all these extra animals cost a lot of money. And as Bonanza illustrated, money can be the lifeblood of our fighters (20% money penalties are simply no fun). I say keep them all, if you're worried about the mounts impact, tell your GM to kill it. At 5th level, a pure wizard (like our up-and-coming Imitril) could fireball the animal.. and average rolls dictate (w/o making the Rex save) that it would die. They will simply be less effective in the future. Also, I must congratulate whoever discovered the gem that is the Potion of Hide from Animals... that tactic has become widespread amonsgt the combatants, and illustrates perfectly my point about the evolution of tactics. :) Past that point, I must confess that I simply had to "shoot the puppy" that was MacMillan Oneima, he wasn't really that effective. Sorry if that disrupts things, but it was for my own selfish reasons, so that I could create Bruno (who I believe is our first gnome...) Finally, my two cents on paladin mount. I hate to say it, but the summons is a requisite arena-only action (for now). But I do belive the benefit is worth it. In response to your "nerfing" comment, Jindl, I belive it was created so the paladin did not have to continuously protect his mount when he entered tight situations. After all, (though my campaign of over a year has yet to have a serious dungeon crawl) paladins are adventurers, and adventuring parties must often enter tight caves, small corriders, or ascend mihgty cliffs. Being able to summon your mount once you get in a more favorable situation is actually a huge benefit for the paladin. Bruno is up... let me know if you recognize the source of his personality. (Movie reference) |
| LLMadCow09-22-03, 08:22 PM | I hope you guys aren't bothered by Billy the War Pony... Lothar loves him dearly, and would be very upset to see him go. "Come'ere Billy!" as lothar runs out of the stables chasing his pony! |
| Alathar Vierce09-22-03, 10:22 PM | Been kind of lax on updating Alathar, will have him ready to go by next weeks pairings :) Roscoe should be ready. |
| Tellish_of_Ket09-23-03, 01:35 AM | Dunno where the start of potion of hide animals comes from, but maybe someone looked at my character. ;) Before i signed up, i read many of the fights and saw the wonderful menageries being brought to bear. So i looked for a counter and found it in potion of hide animals. See ya'll in the Arena. Tellish |
| Moherajikuyx09-23-03, 04:15 AM | Hide from Animals only postpones the inevitable, as was seen in Rito vs. Alton, which by the way is absolutely not the case in discussion, being Alton with only one animal. I think we demonstrated that druids, as rules are, are the strongest participants of this kind of arena: Jindl arose in the ranks without even fearing a loss, if we disregard my error in the last fight, which was my fault. Other druids (I played one too, time ago) did the same in a 3.0 arena: the advantage is greater than you try to show. I think it's time to change the rules. - If the foe concentrates on the pet, the druid is happy. - The druid has his pet for free, so the money is not an issue for him. - The double pet creates a lot of different advantages: the additional attack is only one of them. - Handle animal is not so though for a druid to raise. I agree that the animals get less important at high levels, but this arena tries to find builds that are strong at high levels and survivable at low, so that argument's a con, not a pro. BTW, this also hinders a bit familiars too. |
| Moherajikuyx09-23-03, 04:53 AM | Alathar, Roscoe has an alchemist fire less! I'll let him OK, but remember it. Also, moderators I see you're beginning to update the roster. Please, use the Pitlords login really sparingly: in the last thread, a similar multiuser login was blocked, likely for the disparity of ips of the users. |
| Galamdring09-23-03, 05:41 AM | Just a quick comment on Tanya's fight. She is using a Great SWORD and not a great axe... However, it didn't do her any good... :( I have updated the character with the changes resulting from the fight, and i believe she is ready to go... It seems i had forgotten that sundering provokes attacks of opportunity (how foolish of me :mad: ). I congratulate my opponent for exploiting that weakness. Better luck next time, perhaps... :) |
| Caterane09-23-03, 08:04 AM | ...the barbarian can not kill the flatfooted wizard becuase they start 120 feet apart and there are some very large stone pillars in betweeen the two of them. [...] So far, at this level, the first turn kill is impossible. Is it? A horse with a speed of 60' makes a run at an angle slightly corrected - just enough to avoid the pillars. As soon as it is close enough the rider dismounts as a free action and charges the still flatfooted wizard (perhaps even rages, strength domain, whatever) which will hit with a 95% chance and kill with equal ease. I can just sit there and watch my character die without even having the chance to do something. I lost before the fight started. The mentioned tactic is no rare phenomenen which occurs every other blue moon only, no, it`s just so easy!! Every time I lose Ini against a mounted fighter I am dead for sure. See my problem? That`s why I vote for animals out. 7th level wizard. Phantasmal killer. It has a range of 170 feet, fail the saves and your dead. Wait a minute. First of all you have TWO saves. Fortitude AND Will and at least one of these will be your 'good' save so the chances are minimal. Compare this to the easiness of my example above. Second, it is a spell. That is a class ability of the wizard. I don`t want to ban animal companions of druids or rangers since these are likewise class abilities. They chose to take the class, Paladin for example, who has some advantages and disadvantages compared to a fighter. One advantage is his mount. But what are you worried about, Spider Eaters? Sleep! for goodness sake has an excellent chance of making them drop (+2 will save). Example: Lothar the Orc (lv3 Barbarian, Will save -2) has little chance to resist a Sleep spell. But now Lothar sits on Billy, his 2 Hitdice Warpony, and since Sleep will affect lower HD first Lothar is something like immune to Sleep. Just because he brought a pony along (asides from killing me in round one, of course. See above. :rolleyes: ). THAT IS NOT FAIR. He could`ve spent some points in Wisdom or took Iron will as a feat but no, he invested every point into STR so that he could drop everyone with 1-2 hits. That`s ok, but he has to live with the disadvantages as well. At higher levels they, and kin, just get less and less significant. We shall see. I remind you of that as soon as the first Dire tiger mount appears. If you're worried about your opponents critter mention that in your tactics. A DM works in a void. If you don't say anything about Jindles horse, I say "Okay not an issue." and let things develop as they will. If you say "use Tanglefoot bag on horse!" Then I will! and chances are good you'll deprive him (and any other mounted combatant) of a valuable tool in the fight, and potentially swing it in your favour. No, you mean I even the odds! I use a tanglefoot bag to (possibly) negate an advantage my opponoment has. Basicly I don't understand where this creature hate is coming from. I hope I made it clear. @Mohera: If we continue to let everyone use a companion then please post the prices for the monsters in the MM and aswell as the fees for a mercenary. |
| Jindl09-23-03, 08:20 AM | I don't understand why everyone thinks Jindl is so tough. Alathar Vierce is undefeated at 6th level. That's tough. He whooped Bonanza. You gotta be a really tough character to whoop Bonanza, who was himself a really tough character. Jindl may have risen through the ranks with a record of (2-0), that might be (3-0) like you suggest, Mo. But look at the fights. Has his animal companion ever made the slightest difference in any of the low level fights? Heck, in the first fight (against Cade, Jindl only used his purchased mount "Six". And in his 2nd fight which was against Bilo, Jindl only used his companion "Dozen". And in neither fight did the animal do anything other than transport me around the arena.) And 2-0 does not make a character something to be feared. There have been many 2-0 characters. Alathar Vierce, Bonanza the Panza, Alton Thorngage, Jindl, and maybe others. Of these, Alton is the only one who makes significant use of an animal (his mount allowed him to move in and out of cover while shooting arrows, something that would require 4 feats and a +4 BAB for him to do himself - Dodge, Mobility, Point Blank Shot, +4 BAB, Shot on the Run). So why limit the druid more than other characters because he has a class ability to have an animal companion? There is no evidence that a druid's animal companion unbalances the fight. Perhaps, as you said, in 3.0 the animal companions became unbalancing. But they completely reworked the ability for 3.5, and weakened it greatly in my opinion. In 3.0 a 12th level druid could have 2 awakened dire bear companions. In 3.5 a druid has to be 15th level to get the dire bear, can only ever have one companion, and can not awaken that animal companion (read the awaken spell description). This class ability is much weaker in 3.5 and I don't think there has been any evidence that it unbalances the fights. If you're going to make a rule that characters can't buy animals, fine. But make it across the board that you can't have a pet unless it is a class ability. Don't single out the druid (other classes can buy pets but since he has this class ability he can't buy a pet??) Of course if you get rid of buying pets, I'm sure all those mounted fighters (like Alton) will be upset. Finally, I'd like to remind you that having a heavy warhorse or other pet didn't stop Rito from losing, didn't stop Glorfindel (my old char) from losing, and hasn't saved other characters as well. All in all, Glorfindel would have been better off buying a potion of protection from arrows than buying his riding dog. The ability to have a pet has not yet proven to be unbalancing. And Catarene- It has been stated several times that you can buy any pet with a price listed in the MM. I think only about 4 creatures have prices: Pegasus, Griffon, Hippogriff, and Psuedodragon. Dire tigers do not have a price, therefore they cannot be bought as a mount. Of the creatures with prices, the griffen has the highest cr (something like cr 5) and by the time you could afford to buy a trained griffen, you are at least a 7th level character, so the mount becomes unimportant. As for the psuedodragon, a wizard can get one at 7th level for a feat and 100 gp, or you can buy one at 10th level for 20,000 gp. I just don't see how spending lots of money to buy an animal that could die in the first fight, gives a character an advantage?? Regarding the barbarian scenario, if the barb loses initiative you read fly off of a scroll (which is cheaper than the warhorse and requires no skill points, btw). You have completely negated his advantage in his mount (which cost almost half of his starting gold, btw) and probably will win the fight since he has no effective way to attack a flying target at this level. So it comes down to initiative. I recommend the improved initiative feat (you'll see that Jindl took it a 3rd level.) And I'm not sure the barb can dismount after his horse runs, and take a full action. I think it states that after your mount charges/runs, you get only a standard action to attack. Which means, no the barb can't run near to you, fast dismount, and charge, because he can only take a standard action and charging is a full round action. |
| SnarkHunter09-23-03, 09:05 AM | Furthermore you can only use Fast mount/dismount if you have a move action left in the round. You used your move action to move with the horse. |
| Caterane09-23-03, 09:49 AM | Cateranne Catarene :mad: Just call me Cat :rolleyes: As for the psuedodragon, a wizard can get one at 7th level for a feat and 100 gp And what would the name of this feat be? Surely you don`t mean the NON-CORE 'Improved familiar'? Which means, no the barb can't run near to you, fast dismount, and charge, because he can only take a standard action and charging is a full round action. Hm, well... :twitch: :ayyyy!: Ok, I`m satisfied. Now you have to convince Mohera... |
| Moherajikuyx09-23-03, 10:06 AM | Originally posted by Jindl having a heavy warhorse or other pet didn't stop Rito from losing Hm? Rito never had a pet. Having one would have stopped him from losing. The point I'm trying to transmit, however, is that we have to keep a fair balance at all levels. In a level 2 fight, the generic druid has two warhorses, and come on, that is an unbalancing factor for survivability at low levels. Let's leave them only with 1. At later levels, as you say, the bought pet drops in usefulness, while the companion becomes better, so no difference for the druid there. I want opinions from others now, non moderators too of course. |
| Caterane09-23-03, 10:46 AM | I just had a problem with this instant_kill@round1 due to horse. That`s settled. And I had a problem with buying Dire versions at later levels. That`s settled, too. |
| Jindl09-23-03, 11:01 AM | Cat- sorry about the mispellings. Hey it happens to me too (Snark, its spelled Jindl with no "e"... :) ) Mo- my mistake about Rito having a pet. I must have been thinking about Bonanza...hrm. As for the optional feat "Improved Familiar", it's availability has never been discussed AFAIK. Being in the DMG doesn't make it non-core btw, it just makes is optional core. So we discuss it when it becomes necessary, just like the Leadership feat and the 20-20-auto kill variant. If we do need to discuss improved familiar, I vote to allow it (its pretty weak IMO). Besides, what wizard/sorc is going to spend a general feat to improve their familiar (which they very rarely would benefit from in this context.) I am happy to hear other opinions, and won't be too upset about the rules outcome. I just don't like the idea of penalizing one class. Suggestion for new pet rules: To have a pet the character must satisfy one of the following conditions: 1. Earn the pet through a class ability such as animal companion, special mount, or summon familiar. 2. Be able to train the animal themselves through the handle animal skill, and buy the animal. So nobody can train a heavy warhorse at 2nd level because you need a +10 HA to do it (which means it becomes viable at 4th level.) 3. Have one of the mounted combat feats and buy an animal to ride. So having "Mounted Combat" feat doesn't let a human buy a riding dog, he's limited to large size mounts only. Also, this rule means that the mounted feat supercedes the requirements for the handle animal skill. This makes it possible for mounted fighter builds to be balanced at 2nd level. Can you imagine Moon-moon having to spend his 1st and 3rd level feats on mounted combat stuff and not being able to get his warhorse until 5th level? EDIT: You'll note that you must be able to buy the animal to use options 2 or 3, so dire animal mounts are still out, unless you have them through class abilities. So, my suggestion is that you can have a pet when you satisfy one of the above criteria. At most, you can only have one pet in the arena. So, for example, a mounted wizard may have to chose between entering with his warhorse mount or his weasal familiar. Skymoon can either enter the arena with his regular warhorse, or summon his special mount. He cannot have both at once. A druid with mounted combat feats can either enter the arena with his animal companion or with a mount he has purchased. This is my suggestion. To get more input from others, this will be my final post on this matter (except to answer questions/clarify the content of this post). What do you guys think? |
| Caterane09-23-03, 01:08 PM | @Mohera: I just saw your Merfolk Pc and wondered where you found those racial ability modifiers... Oh, and Alertness is no bonus feat but the most obvious choice of this race. @Djinndel ;) : Great work!! These rules make sense and balance combat while leaving options open for mounted combatants. BTW: Your druid inspired me to play one in my gaming group though he will be a darker type. @all: I think these rules are great. Let`s make them official. Suggestion for new pet rules: To have a pet the character must satisfy one of the following conditions: 1. Earn the pet through a class ability such as animal companion, special mount, or summon familiar. 2. Be able to train the animal themselves through the handle animal skill, and buy the animal. So nobody can train a heavy warhorse at 2nd level because you need a +10 HA to do it (which means it becomes viable at 4th level.) 3. Have one of the mounted combat feats and buy an animal to ride. So having "Mounted Combat" feat doesn't let a human buy a riding dog, he's limited to large size mounts only. Also, this rule means that the mounted feat supercedes the requirements for the handle animal skill. This makes it possible for mounted fighter builds to be balanced at 2nd level. Can you imagine Moon-moon having to spend his 1st and 3rd level feats on mounted combat stuff and not being able to get his warhorse until 5th level? EDIT: You'll note that you must be able to buy the animal to use options 2 or 3, so dire animal mounts are still out, unless you have them through class abilities. So, my suggestion is that you can have a pet when you satisfy one of the above criteria. At most, you can only have one pet in the arena. So, for example, a mounted wizard may have to chose between entering with his warhorse mount or his weasal familiar. Skymoon can either enter the arena with his regular warhorse, or summon his special mount. He cannot have both at once. A druid with mounted combat feats can either enter the arena with his animal companion or with a mount he has purchased. PS: There is a Warhammer Miniature I can`t find. It looks like a Druid with a robe and a chainmask, sitting on a mare. There is also a sign with a vulture in front of him. Does anybody know the name or the regiment which it belongs to? |
| Magagumo09-23-03, 01:59 PM | Hmm, interesting thoughts overall on the mount issue. I belive the Handle Animal/Mounted Combat feat is the best point though. I say if a wizard manages to find points for handle animal (which I don't think is a class skill for them...) then you might as well let them have the familiar as well. In the end, I think the "number" limit is a bad idea, but having the skill or feat prereq is good enough for me. I suppose the horses could be dangerous.. but I still stand by the fact that Jindl, as she herself mentioned, has only rarely brought both into combat. Furthermore, I have no fear for the non-companion ("Six" is it?) A heavy warhorse is big, but simply not that dangerous. Only when it has the boosted power of the mighty "druid/ranger animal companion" status does it truly become dangerous (and trust me, Jindl, "Dozen" is fierce :)). Thus, I say skip the number limit and allow price, feat, and skill reqs to weed out the competition. Dogs have bad hp, and a horse is large (read: cannot hide behind those pillars well, as it takes a 10x10 space and pillars only hide 5x5 from view) so they could be sniped if you chose. As for low level balance, we should stop kidding ourselves. This is a one-on-one arena fight, there isn't necessarily balance between the classes. A rogue is fierce, for example, against the clueless wizard who doesn't spot him/her until after the sneak attack nearly or does drop them. The rogue get's beaten on by an observant barbarian, who is hard to catch off-guard and can destroy them in one round if equipped properly. Summoner druids are very powerful against many styles, but a solid direct damage spell might drop them... I could go on for quite awhile about the difficulty of killing monks, except if you have a high ac, fort save, etc.. (read: fighter), but I think you get my point. (The meleers are coming, gentlemen and ladies, our specialized chars must contend with the power of a 1d12+15 damage roll soon enough ;)) Thus, I say let the druid with two companions on through, sure they'll win a few battles based on that style alone, but Jindl the druid isn't as powerful as he is because of the second mount. It's b/c Jindl (the person) knows her tactics, and creates impressively tricky siutations that minimize her opponent's advantages. I tip my hat to you, Jindl, you always seem to have a new trick up your sleeve, and I'm thankful never to have fought you.. yet :D Anyways, that's my thoughts on our discussions for now. Just my two (and 1/4) cents. |
| Jindl09-23-03, 02:24 PM | Magagumo- I appreciate the compliment on my tactics... Regarding the limit of one pet regardless of how many of the conditions you meet, at 6th level Jindl will be taking the mounted combat feat (Yes, he is a mounted druid build...). At that time he would qualify for conditions 1, 2 (his HA will be more than +10), and 3. He shouldn't be able to bring in 3 animals... "The druid enters the arena mounted on a griffon (from his mounted combat feat) with a dire bat animal companion (from class ability) and a hippogriff (bought and trained via HA)." That's a more than a bit too tough and exactly the kind of thing Mo is trying to avoid. As for familiars interfering with mounts, I don't know of any mounted wizard/sorc builds. So I don't think the limit would bother them too much. But they could cast the "mount" spell! Its a pretty good one, IMO. Regarding the roster: Why aren't piwi's characters [ok] ? ct2htw, you realize that Laucian will likely suffer from the <xp penalty> rules. I suggest to read that section (its at the top of the builds thread). The xp penalty rules don't stop you from using that character, but they do reduce the amount of money you win. And as Snark pointed out, money is the lifeline of these characters... Cat, I think Mo got the modifiers for his merforlk from the MM description combined with the DMG rules on how to incorporate monstrous pcs. I think he got the ability mods right. I wonder how he plans to cope with that land speed of 5' ?? Scroll of fly? I plan to enter another character (my 3rd) later today. However, if we have uneven pairings at 2nd level, then I will volunteer to have my new character sit out. |
| Tellish_of_Ket09-23-03, 03:16 PM | I believe everything really is balanced as it is. The rules that Jindl has discussed seems absolutely fair. I have thought long and hard about trying to make up for the "disadvantage" of no pets. I believe i have found a very viable and effective tactic to neutralize them. I'll soon see how it works. Even if it's slightly unblalanced now, it really evens out fast at higher lvls. wiz=mass dmg spells rog=better h/ms, sneak f/b/r=brutality + bonuses mnk= nuff said I personally don't feel i'm gonna be handicapped in the arena because i don't have a mount. And the fear of being handicapped will lessen with each victory. Tellish |
| Moherajikuyx09-23-03, 03:24 PM | Originally posted by Jindl Cat, I think Mo got the modifiers for his merforlk from the MM description combined with the DMG rules on how to incorporate monstrous pcs. I think he got the ability mods right. I wonder how he plans to cope with that land speed of 5' ?? Scroll of fly? Moving? Why? :D *edit* The idea of letting any number of pets possessed but allowing only one in the arena is OK. The feat condition is eccessive, if we use that rule: low int, low feat barbarians shall be able to use horses too, if they don't have combat riding it will become costly. |
| Magagumo09-23-03, 03:44 PM | hehe.. I too am curious, Mo. A 5' foot move speed... though i suppose expeditious retreat would greatly compensate, I'm very interested in what the immobile fish will do :). (beautiful Charisma though). As for your idea, Jindl, of the bat companion, hippogriff, and mount, I'd honestly be willing to see it. Menagerie druids have always be a favorite of mine.. and a reason why my friends have no problems with the changes to animal companions in 3.5 (Between the 18th lvl druid/barabrian half-orc with 3 legendary awakened wolves, and the 15th level druid/tamer of beasts with a behir, 2 purple worms, a rampager (MMII), and a fiendish purple worm... :D) I suppose you're right though, when I'm confronted with all of that, but I'm not sure the horse and hippogrif wouldnt just be prey for snipers (like Ander, Bilo, or Devon) or flying whirlwinds of doom (Alathar Vierce ^_^). Like I said, I usually have to see it before I judge it. :) |
| Moherajikuyx09-23-03, 03:50 PM | I was wondering... Doing a 5' step for a merfolk, would be a move action or a just-a-step? Originally posted by Jindl Why aren't piwi's characters [ok] ? He didn't edit them after their last fights :( I hope he's not leaving. PIWI! Give us a sign! |
| Caterane09-23-03, 04:02 PM | I`m sick http://www.sebastian-sutor.de/smilies/kotz.gif |
| Jindl09-23-03, 04:04 PM | PHB. pg 144: "Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can't take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature." |
| SnarkHunter09-23-03, 08:41 PM | Annoying as it will be to spend the first round of every fight summoning the ol mount, I guess I can live with it. And if Piwi doens't get off his duff and update his char I won't have to worry about that for another weak at least. |
| Alathar Vierce09-24-03, 12:49 AM | If Piwi doesn't update then Alathar will have a 2 week vacation, thinking a trip to old hometown will bring back some memories :) |
| Jindl09-24-03, 02:41 AM | Since piwi has not updated, I note that we have only 9 x 2nd level combatants that are [ok]. So I post a new combatant "the Elder". Thanks for the idea, Magagumo ;) Please add him to the roster to even out the number for this week. |
| SnarkHunter09-24-03, 03:06 AM | Woah...str of 4? I suggest you avoid being reduced. If that happens I don't think you'll be able to hold that quarterstaff :D. Hmm...actually that's a fort save to avoid... :devil: *edit* I am foolish and not as intelligent as I imagine! Reduce person reduces equipment and weight as well. Cest la vie |
| Caterane09-24-03, 06:44 AM | Before we all have 10 characters running... why not recruit new members? In any case, I strongly recommend limiting characters a player can have to 2. If both characters are at least lvl 6 you may add a 3rd one and so on. What do you think? |
| Imizael09-24-03, 06:45 AM | sry that i forgot to put spells to spellbook (but u can see all in eguipment where i paid for copying to spellbook ).I had to do this hastly.I was out and now im at home for 5 minutes. |
| Imizael09-24-03, 06:47 AM | i can right it down now couse patings are done and i cant edit it.But aditional spells u can see in eguipment where i write which one i copy to spell book. couse i forgote to write them in spell book - but i paid for copying them can i use them ? |
| Moherajikuyx09-24-03, 06:59 AM | Pairings online! :behold: You have two days to send the tactics to your moderator. Then he will use the default tactics, or make your character act randomly if you didn't post them! FIGHT ON! |
| Caterane09-24-03, 07:13 AM | Muahahahaha I got Imitril. Would`ve prefered Lothar or Rizzen though. And Snark`s a great moderator; hope it`s friday soon. TO VICTORY!! @Moderators: I suggest to standartize the postings of the fights as we did with the combat round results. If a fight has been completed please post a link here on the comments board. IN NO WAY POST THE OUTCOMMING OF THE BATTLE. Not you and not anyone in the following posts! (I still shudder at the MOON BEATS JINDL anouncement :mad: ). @Imitril: Let`s see what you have. I`m ok with your spells (though your sheet is a mess) but where`s your quarterstaff noted? Ah, a Scythe. I see. Nice idea. A Fly scroll. :rolleyes: I guess this fight`s gonna be expensive ...for both of us. |
| SnarkHunter09-24-03, 03:48 PM | Tactics for one and only fight have been sent. I've also recieved Mo's. I reiterate to those who participate in my fights. Give me complete tactics, and, the sooner I get them the sooner the fight goes off. And have fun! |
| Caterane09-24-03, 04:44 PM | @Snark: Tactics sent. @Magagumo: Tactics received. Sent you a mail though |
| Tellish_of_Ket09-24-03, 10:32 PM | Tactics sent. Good luck Jindl. Should be an easy victory for you. I'm about to be 'shocked'. Not the opponent i was hoping for. :\ Tellish |
| LLMadCow09-24-03, 10:44 PM | Quote by: Caterane Example: Lothar the Orc (lv3 Barbarian, Will save -2) has little chance to resist a Sleep spell. But now Lothar sits on Billy, his 2 Hitdice Warpony, and since Sleep will affect lower HD first Lothar is something like immune to Sleep. Just because he brought a pony along (asides from killing me in round one, of course. See above. ). THAT IS NOT FAIR. He could`ve spent some points in Wisdom or took Iron will as a feat but no, he invested every point into STR so that he could drop everyone with 1-2 hits. That`s ok, but he has to live with the disadvantages as well. Is that not fair? I thought this was the Optimization board, previously the Min/Max forum. So, Lothar sits on his cute war pony. So, Lothar slaps his war pony awake if he falls asleep. Cheap? Perhaps, but it is all part of the strategy. Yes, I do have to live with the disadvantages, but so be it. |
| Jindl09-25-03, 11:14 AM | Actually LLMadCow, as you alluded to in you character background/description, Lothar can't use Billy as a mount. As far as game mechanics go, an orc is a medium creature and therefore requires a large sized mount. War ponies are medium size, therefore they can only serve as mounts for small sized characters. I gues Lothar could drink a potion of reduce person and then ride Billy the Warpony, but that would certainly detract from your fighter/barb build. Still, if you want a warpony to soak up sleep spell damage, you could lead him around the arena, but this would also prevent you from using a two-handed weapon, which goes back to hurting your fighter/barb build. So, I really don't see how Lothar can use a warpony to soak a sleep spell. EDIT: If you had the Handle Animal skill to train the warpony to heel, you wouldn't need to lead him around... and could use your two handed weapon. |
| Caterane09-25-03, 11:27 AM | I would slay the beast outright for this STUPID tactic! NO ONE would lead a pony just to soak up a sleep spell; especially no orc with INT 6!!! |
| Jindl09-25-03, 11:39 AM | Cat, I think the whole point is that LLMadCow wants you to slay his warpony. It uses up your action, and while you're targeting the pony, Lothar is decap'ing you. Whether its a sleep spell, a sniper (BTW: Magagumo, if Bilo sniped the hippogriff then he gives his position away b/c his invis goes away/he hides at a -20 penalty), or just a melee attack to prevent flanking, the purpose of "most" pets that you can buy is to split you're opponents attacks. They are meat shields. Now for pets gained through class abilities, its a different story. They can be scouts (like familiars), meat sheilds with the ability to do significant damage (see Druid companion, like the fearsome "Dozen"), or enablers that allow the character to do massive damage (like Moon-moon's special mount + charge). That's ultimately why class ability pets remain viable at higher levels while store bought pets become worthless. Still, I can see a 3rd level human ranger (poor will save, but good animal handle skill) using a riding dog (trained to heel) to soak a sleep spell, especially vs. Imizael, Slefwee, the Elder, or Bruno. The potential for the dog to trip/set up a flank is just added bonus. Not a bad way to spend 150 gp. EDIT: Magagumo, this riding dog tactic wouldn't be bad for Ander to use... |
| SnarkHunter09-25-03, 12:49 PM | First of all even a -20 penalty on the hide check isn't necessarily going to give Bilo away :devil:. Yeah...good times. Anyways I've recieved tactics from Mo and Cat, still waiting on the rest. Earliest I could run would be Friday probably, since tonight I've got a quite an amount of Homework to attend to. |
| Caterane09-25-03, 12:54 PM | Bah, I don`t need a companion. Really, a pity I didn`t get Lothar as opponoment. Perhaps @4th level... @Snark: I still have 2 homeworks to do. Had the whole semester break but didn`t write a line. :smirk: @ct2htw: I run the fight tomorow (Friday is my Freeday) so if you don`t mail me your tactics I use the ones posted in your profile. Strange name, by the way. |
| Magagumo09-25-03, 01:34 PM | I had forgotten about sleep affecting the lowest HD, but I'm afraid Ander is on a tight budget. (Yes, i realize that by not spending money, I am causing myself to lose battles that otherwise could be won.) And after my fight with Bilo, no matter how it goes, I do think I will be investing in an oil of magic weapon (hate protection from arrows so much ;)). Hopefully I win soon, I wants me the Boots of Striding and Springing, you see. :) As for the comment of the Orc with Int 6, I have to admit that that is where min/maxing irks me slightly. I hold nothing against you for your tactics, LLMadCow, but I do recognize that fi I were to ever have an INT 6 creature in my campaigns pull that, the players would have a right to complain. On the other hand, Int does moderate skill points, and barbarians normally get quite a few useful ones. Thus, i say tweak on! :D (poor Charisma, so often the dump stat..) I only have Rito's tactics, and Ill be needing everyone elses by Friday.. (Saturday and Sunday are my game-runnning days, so at least get them to me by Sat morning.) |
| Caterane09-25-03, 02:02 PM | Barbarian doesn`t mean 'stupid' Int 6 DOES mean 'stupid' |
| Caterane09-25-03, 02:12 PM | @all: On the one hand I don`t like that you can`t play ECL+2 Races. After all I miss the drow and the arena would get more colored as monstrous humanoids would join the ranks (as it is in most arenas). On the other hand I don`t like starting at lvl 3 (I would even prefer to have characters start @lvl 1). Now a thought struck me: What about allowing 2 classes or monsters with 2 racial HD but the first level has to be apprentice (as per the rules in DMG)? After getting lvl 3 you add the full class. Or you could be a commoner which will be replaced by a real class @lvl 3. What do you think? |
| Jindl09-25-03, 03:46 PM | To all: I will be out of town Saturday + most of Sunday. I have recieved Snark's tactics. Please send me other tactics so that I can run at least one of the fights before I go out of town... To Magamumo, Imizael, and Snark - My tactics will be sent this afternoon. To Snark - A -20 penalty gives Bilo and effective hide of -5. Jindl has a spot of +10 and therefore spots Bilo 75% of the time, not counting range mods. Also, the sniper attack would eliminate your hide from animals/invisibility effects, making you vulnerable to Jindl's summons, especially his bats!! :devil: To LLMadCow - I like your clever tactics to defeat sleep spells, even if they need some fine-tuning. Keep in mind that Lothar had all the time in the world to come up with that trick, while the player only spent 20 minutes. That makes it still reasonable for a character with an int of 6 to pull this off, IMO. To all the combatants : Good luck. To all the mod's : Thanks for donating your time to run the fights! |
| LLMadCow09-25-03, 08:50 PM | Oops I just forgot that we cannot edit our character posts after selected opponents. I saw that I had a misspelling of my Potion of Shield of Faith. I had Shielf of Faith and I corrected it. Honest. I hope someone can verify this for me, or else I may have to drop from this round... :( |
| Jindl09-26-03, 01:02 AM | I verified Lothar the Orc (I used the copy I took on Wed.) and so was able to go ahead to run the fight between Lothar and Rizzen. It's really very bloody... Fight Posted! |
| LLMadCow09-26-03, 06:02 AM | When a character has the Craft skill, which Lothar does not, they are allowed to REPAIR an item by making the rolls and paying 1/5th of the items cost. Are Arena Combatants allowed to have items repaired? It makes sense that the material does not have to be purchased again, just the extra bit of labor for the smithy. Just curious. If items can be repaired, Lothar will have some items repaired instead of buying they all over again... :cool: |
| Moherajikuyx09-26-03, 07:54 AM | LL - Sounds good, I don't know about any official rules for this but we can make up. Anybody knows? |
| Caterane09-26-03, 08:14 AM | Since we strictly use core rules only and it`s nowhere covered in the PHB nor DMG I would say it is not possible. What if I use "shatter" to blow a weapon into thousand pieces? Can it still be repaired? We don`t even use 3.0 stuff so we shouldn`t make houserules at all. Just my thought. |
| SnarkHunter09-26-03, 08:28 AM | Problem is this gives sunderers almost as much of an advantage as we've already denied Disarmers. I think it would be fair to allow repair at 1/2 price. Or at 1/4 price if you've got the requisite craft () skill. |
| Jindl09-26-03, 09:12 AM | I think that we should allow repairs to be made at the same price that it would cost to craft the item. So repairs could be made at 2/3 price for magic weapons/armor/items. And repairs could be made at 1/2 price for non magic items. Of course if you have the appropriate craft skill/feat, then you can use the given rules: 1/5th for nonmagic, 1/2 of 2/3 = 1/3 for magic. Regarding shatter: If you shatter a mithril shield into a thousand pieces, you now have a thousand pieces of mithril with which to forge a new shield (and materials make up 1/3 the cost of a non-magical item...). Also, did everyone think the improvised weapon use (of the sundered haft) to be appropriate? Just my thoughts. |
| KerlanRayne09-26-03, 12:00 PM | Another New Character! What do you think? Yarin Pach (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1427086/ post1427086) KerlanRayne |
| Jindl09-26-03, 12:01 PM | KerlanRayne - I've been wondering when we'd see the wild elf barb/sor. Possible dragon disciple?? I'd even thought of making one myself (hehehe). BTW: Diehard has Endurance as a prereq, so you'll need to take Endurance at 1st and Diehard at 3rd if you really want it. Welcome to the Arena! |
| LLMadCow09-26-03, 03:00 PM | So, is it going to be made official that sundered weapons/armors can be repaired for 1/2 cost? And 2/3 cost for magical weapons/armors? If everyone is in agreement, I will go forward with repairing my equipment. I just have to hope that I do not run into anymore sundering monsters. :cool: Jindl - I liked the use of improvised weapon. Lothar would have had little other option, and I find it appropriate that when left with no weapons and a big stick in his hand, he would have used it out of frustration, if nothing else. |
| Magagumo09-26-03, 03:41 PM | Rules on repair sound ecellent to me, jindl.. Just how I run it at home (except I didnt know it was 2/3rds on magic stuff.... I'll have to keep that in mind ^_^) Btw, I will have my tactics to you shortly, Philosophy essays, new campaigns, and significant others have been devouring my time lately... |
| Moherajikuyx09-26-03, 05:09 PM | Great fight!! :rofl: The repair rules are added: 1/2 and 1/3, 1/3 and 1/5 if self repaired. A note: to build/repair conventional stuff, you have to have a well suited skill. Craft: armorsmith for armors, craft: weaponsmith for weapons, craft: metalworking for items, and so on. |
| SnarkHunter09-26-03, 05:49 PM | Excellent, I think that a fine rule. Also level 1 fight posted :). Cut and paste is wonderful, btw. I suggest you skip the first 10 rounds or so though. I'll prolly do the other tomorrow sometime. |
| Jindl09-26-03, 06:10 PM | Now you know how I felt doing the Bilo vs anyone else fights... Sneak, sneak, sneak, sneak, sneak, sneak, sneak, and the fights over in one round. Good fight though. BTW: Mod's we need to start paying closer attention to armor check penalties, especially to hide, move silently and ride checks. Snark, I had Karse enter without his armor so that his movesilently and hide checks would be better (and not have the -4 acp included). Also: I noticed that I made a small mistake in the fight between Rizzen and Lothar. Lothar's speed should have been 30 for wearing armor, and I ran him with a speed of 40. There is no difference in the outcome, as Lothar would have stayed invisible at great distance for one round longer... |
| LLMadCow09-26-03, 07:37 PM | We've got a good thing going, and we could really use more competitors. Has anyone considering posting some tantalizing posts on other boards to beef up our ranks? If we had enough people in the arena, then we could get some more attention from the WotC Moderators. Give us our own forum, instead of just some messages threads to keep track of. I am aware that there are other Tournament threads, but it would be nice to have a Tournament Board with a few different set of tournament rules (Anything WotC, 3.5 only, 3.0 Only, etc), some lead posts with complete rules for each tournament type, and a lot of Arena GMs. That being said, I am feeling more confident with the rules and the characters. If needed, I would be willing to try running a matchup, however, I would like to run the match and then submit it to an experienced Arena GM for approval. Just to make sure I am doing things correctly. My days off are Monday and Tuesday, so I would run games by Monday at the latest... |
| SnarkHunter09-26-03, 11:58 PM | wow, my one concern with that many new people would be finding time and people to run all the fights. I think the number we're working with now is pretty good, and the steady increase (or sharp increase+quick dropouts) a managable degree. The one hit kill thing applies mainly at low levels though. 3-4 and up even my best sneak won't get everyone. And at higher levels If Bilo aint at least invisible every round I think he's gonna be in trouble. (but man when he gets that ring of freedom of movement!!! yay!) I'm curious if spell casters are gonna as powerful as everyone says they will (at low levels fighters murder but at higher, clerics, wizards sorcerers explode). With good tactics...maybe not that easy. Very curious though. Edit: Heres a thought, if Wizards really did feel like supporting this. Combine the arena, the dice roller and the fight thread into one page. DM's run their fights like usual, but now can actually place ASCII characters in various places to indicate whats going on. One could press th eplay button and see it happen round by round. I know this has been done with much more impressive graphics in a more robust setting, but somethign simple and easy any moderator could use...that would be a lot of fun. |
| Magagumo09-27-03, 12:57 AM | One note, it seems ride checks no longer contain armor check penalties... except on fast mount/dismount Going to run one fight tomorrow, other on Sunday! SUndaY! SUNDAY!! Ahem, yes, well thats all I have to say |
| Moherajikuyx09-27-03, 05:35 AM | Double darn! Perfect timing for failing that spell. Oh well, at least I didn't use anything. |
| Caterane09-27-03, 12:22 PM | Ok guys, you wanted a good fight? You get a good fight! EAT THIS!! Bruno Wilikens vs Laucien (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1434729#post1434729) Greets Cat |
| Moherajikuyx09-27-03, 04:12 PM | The audience, still wondering which one is the animal companion and which one the master begins to throw things like rocks, chairs, goblins,… after the bogeyman :rofl: Great work Cat! I hope you enjoyed writing that as much as I did reading it! |
| SnarkHunter09-28-03, 01:28 AM | Yeah i got to say Cat, your descriptions and narrative flow were lovely. Spot on indeed. A few quibles rules wise though; Scroll of Fozes cunning requires a Caster level chack to activate (like a DC4, not to serious). Were you having the two rays stack, or overlap? I wasn't sure. Um, a critical miss always misses but thats it. No hitting yourself or dropping the weapon or anything else wacky. Why did the hawk get an AoO when charging? but yeah good fight. |
| LLMadCow09-28-03, 04:19 AM | Please Retire Devon. She is bowing out of the arena combat. "Forget this arena (#@*! I'll stick to hunting my bounty and making money the easy way." A new character will be appearing soon. Perhaps even before you manage to read this... |
| Caterane09-28-03, 04:24 AM | Scroll of Fozes cunning requires a Caster level chack to activate An excerpt: Deciding that the less-than-pleasant situation needs more brain than muscle he draws his most precious scroll (which he had securely stored in his pants) and speaks the command word. [Concentration (18+8) = 26, success] Were you having the two rays stack, or overlap? Stack. :nonono: Um, a critical miss always misses but thats it. No hitting yourself or dropping the weapon or anything else wacky. Didn`t know the houserules. DMG had a rule on fumbles which I used (in my gaming group you get an AoO when your foe rolls a 1) Why did the hawk get an AoO when charging? Reach 0 ft Glad you enjoyed it. |
| Moherajikuyx09-28-03, 04:40 AM | Galamdring, you didn't mail me the tactics yet; I'm going to run the fight within a pair of hours even though you don't. |
| Moherajikuyx09-28-03, 12:00 PM | Posted Roscoe Goodkeg vs. Tanya Silvermoon! Various lucks and bad lucks... Alathar, would Olidammara be a valid God for Roscoe? All the rolls are here (http://krisinchico.brinkster.net/searchroll.asp?username=Roscoe-Tanya). |
| Magagumo09-28-03, 01:11 PM | Heh, lesson learned... If one sends tactics in the manner of a vicious, gnome thug, you get a demented, senile gnome grandfather ;) Ah well, it was a nicely written fight, Cat, I think I'll be more specific in my tactics (positions of pillars) from now on... Also, Mods, if Bruno is to be personified in any way, make sure you read his backstory first. Remember, cleric of Nerull ;) Anyways, working on those 2 fights now... Hee hee, poor Obad-hai... Hmm, having read the Roscoe vs. Tanya fight, I wanted to remind the mods of something. In order to throw a vial of acid or alchemist's fire, you must first ready it, an action which is listed as a full-round action (PHB pg. 141). Just a reminder ;) (I believe this was to prevent quick draw, two-weapon fighters who hurled two flasks of acid or fire every round... a suprisingly effective tactic all considered) |
| Imizael09-28-03, 03:46 PM | I was to run fight Hurtz vs The Elder but : Hurtz got equipment for 1591 gp ... so i dont know what to do with this ... mw, heavy steel shield 170gp mw, Chain shirt 250gp mw, scimitar 350gp 4 bolas 20gp dagger 1gp net 20gp Potion of shield of faith +2 ac, 50gp Potion of hide from animals 50gp potion of enlarge person 50gp(should be 250) potion of cure light wounds 50gp potion of barksin +2, 300gp smoke stick x2, 80gp ___________ = 996 gp ( 1591) Current coins in Purse: GP: 4 ( - 591) I'm waiting for an answer from other mods ... |
| Imizael09-28-03, 04:55 PM | About Aris : She Is a He :eek: |
| Alathar Vierce09-28-03, 05:19 PM | Actually Mo, its just the word Tymora with Olidarma's Portfolio :) all for looks |
| Imizael09-28-03, 05:42 PM | great fights one more time sorry for imitril (he's card was one bloody mess but i got 5 minutes to make 2 characters ready for next fights) - i got 4 exams and 3 subjects to pass in 3 weeks and i got the final tests Still dont know what to do with fight !!! |
| Imizael09-28-03, 05:50 PM | about Imitril's fight 1.Imitril used also potion of Sof 2.How was determined DC for a blindness from a scrool ? about Rizzen's fight : How many times i got to sunder already destroyed weapon to make it useless ? |
| SnarkHunter09-28-03, 07:09 PM | Imitril 1. noted 2. The DC's on saves for most magic items (excluding staffs) is 10+the spell level (2) +the minumun int/cha wis bonus needed to cast the spell (1). So a 1st level scrolls save is 11, 2nd, 13, 3rd 14, 4th 16, and so on. 3. Just once, but you have to deal enough damage in that sunder to overcome the weapons hardness and hitpoints. For the Hurtz thing I would remove the Net (or Bolas, depends on his tactics), the poition of Barkskin, one of the smokesticks and the potion of enlarge person from his equipment. The thing to do of course is prioritize what's most important given his tactics and who he's fighting. |
| Magagumo09-28-03, 07:43 PM | Aris is male, huh :embarrass : Sorry bout that... I belive FF7 has messed with my mind. Anyways, I suppose I should have read the actual equipment list for the short sword (I can't belive I missed he was male... especially after I just commented on reading character's descriptions and backstory ^_^;;;) Anyways, Jindl vs. Rito fight is up, and I only have one thing to note: Jindl, Dispel Magic is a 4th level spell for Druids, thus making it a 7th level caster (you mentioned it was 5th level in your tactics). As you appeared to have plenty of gold to spare (and you made the caster check with flying colors anyways), you just need to subtratc the additonal cost for the scroll from your gold pool- 325 gp. pricey, but well worth it. Finally, I will be bringing an new charcter to the arena, as Bruno somehow managed to make it to 3rd level (I promise to write tactics in normal voice next time ;), prevents confusion and all) And Ander is at least 4th level. That is all :D |
| Imizael09-28-03, 07:53 PM | Thx for ansers :) I asking about sundering couse of Rizzen Fight : Lothar used destroyed weapon as improvised weapon which imo isn't ok.He didn't provoke AoO this way and deald6+15(1.5times str bonus ,2 handed) instead of d4+10 This could have big influence on future fights couse sundering will be useless (losing 2 round to give opponent -4 attak if i could kill him with that blows ... not a big deal) |
| Caterane09-28-03, 08:05 PM | @Snark: Good fight. One thing though: I would`ve prefered to stay far far away once he was blinded and finish him with my longbow to ensure a safe victory. About Ray of enfeeblement: are you sure it doesn`t stack wit hitself? There is no special bonus mentioned. |
| Magagumo09-28-03, 08:26 PM | The spell, Ray of Enfeeblement, is listed as not stacking on page 172. Two spells of the same name never stack together, and if one has a higher strength (ie. the -6 RoE instead of the -2 RoE) the -6 takes precedent. If the -6 one were to be dispelled or end, the -2 would then take over (if it was also still running). As for the improv weapon, it was based on a paointed stick (shortspear) im assuming. On PHB 113, it says they deal damage according to type (so 1d6 isnt too bad for a battleaxe hilt) and are always non-proficient... This means they have a -4 penalty, but there's no AoO involved. |
| Tellish_of_Ket09-28-03, 09:10 PM | My bad, i thought the potion of enlarge person price was an error. I could have sworn i saw other players purchase it for 50gp as well. My apolagies for the confusion and delays it caused. Tellish. ps. If it's not too late remove the mw, shield, potion of enlarge person, hide from animals, barkskin plz. pps. again, major oops, and apolagies |
| Jindl09-28-03, 10:09 PM | RE: Magagumo, my bad on the cost of scroll: dispel magic. The DMG listed it at 375 gp, and I wasn't sure if it would be more for druids. Does the same thing apply to wands? RE: I viewed the battleaxe handle to be usable as an improvised club (1d6, 20/x2, -4 nonprofiecient, one-handed weapon wielded in 2 hands). Keep in mind that his attack bonus dropped for losing the m.w. enhancement, and for losing the +1 weapon focus. Had it been sundered again, it would have "maybe" been usable as an improvised dagger (1d4 20/x2, -4 noonproficient, light weapon cannot be wielded in two hands), or been unusable completely, depending on how much damage you do (DM's call). All in all, I think sundering is great for the first attack, but then you should follow up with regular attacks. The benefit? You take away your foes best weapon, and make all those weapon specific feats useless. And, if he uses an improvised weapon, he has a -4 to hit too. Good tactic, but it needs to be immediately followed by an attack against the wielder. What do you guys think? Cat- Nice narrating on the Bruno vs. Laucien. I have a ?, I couldn't tell what effects you were using for failing the save vs. entangle. It doesn't say that a character becomes prone if they fail their save, but it does say they must make a str check to move if the fail. Bruno should not have been able to crawl out of the entangle after failing his save without making a STR check of 20 (pretty tough for him). And he doesn't necessary go prone (but that is the DM's call.) Just for future reference. Mo- Good fight. In the future, would you please list the location as part of the end of round stats? Pretty please? FYI: Bilo Darkleaf vs. Ander Brogaden is posted. |
| Galamdring09-29-03, 05:50 AM | Moherajikuyx, i am sorry for not emailing any tactics, but i have been busy this week, and i went to my parents house this weekend (no net). Anyway, thanks for running the fight. I loved the descriptions :D . In order to level up, i have to change my character in the "post your builds" thread, correct? Thanks. |
| Caterane09-29-03, 06:29 AM | @Jindl: Thanks. I`m glad you liked it. Ray o. Enf.: Acknowkedged. Prone: DM`s discretion :teach: Entangle: Ah yes; and crawl is 5ft only. That was the one phase of the fight I hadn`t my PHB ready because my good pal Matze sat in the kitchen and was using it to make a backup character. ...and as if fate answered: his main character died yesterday during the session when a Ogre Fighter dropped him to -2, ending his rage --> -14, dead. :( |
| Imizael09-29-03, 07:39 AM | About sunder - ok i will do that next time imo it should depend on dmg dealt to the weapon. About Fight - ok i will run it today evening |
| SnarkHunter09-29-03, 02:33 PM | Wow cool fight Jindle... Hide sneak, hide sneak, hide sneak....AHHHHH!!!! Fun. Anywho I'll have everyone updated in a bit and also yet another new combatant has entered the ring! Say hello to Alexie de Berniers, he's a grand ol guy. |
| Imizael09-29-03, 07:15 PM | Fight posted Sorry for delay.Hope u will enjoy it. |
| Tellish_of_Ket09-29-03, 08:02 PM | Yup, that was probably the quickest fight in the arena so far. I guess the crowd didn't get their money's worth on that one. lol An untimely failed save can ruin anyone's day i guess. lol Tellish |
| SnarkHunter09-29-03, 10:28 PM | Particuarly when a 10d6 shocking grasp is on the other end. yup. Is that all the fights? |
| Jindl09-29-03, 11:49 PM | That is all the fights. And as for the CDG with shocking grasp, its better than whacking them 4 times with a quarterstaff, right Imizael? :) This week I will handle my normal 2 fights, but the combatants *must* get me the tactics as soon as possible. Saturday night I will leave out of town for a week, and I have to run the fights before I go. By the same token, I will not have characters participating in next week's round, nor will I be able to mod next week. |
| Imizael09-30-03, 04:41 AM | Sure it is. I'm lucky that Imitril was waching that fight ... he will take a lesson from The Elder :) |
| Caterane09-30-03, 05:30 AM | What about updating the roster? Tomorow the pairings will be announced... What`s up with piwi and ct2tw? They didn`t respond since their fights? CT didn`t even sent me tactics??? |
| Moherajikuyx09-30-03, 06:51 AM | I just did. Maris, a wood elf, enters the arena... Looking for her brother Aris! :) |
| Imizael09-30-03, 07:24 AM | Imitril ready to fight |
| Jindl09-30-03, 08:53 AM | Check out the level 5 fights: Assuming piwi doesn't update alton, then there will be 3 combatants: Moon-moon (Snark) -didn't fight last week Jindl (me) Bilo (Snark) So in that case, does Bilo get a "by" week or do you want to roll to see if Bilo and Moon-moon might face each other? If Bilo does get a "by" then Jindl gets a rematch vs. Moon-moon !! And check out level 3. 7 combatants for 4 players. Imizael has 3. Jindl has 2. Galamdring has 1. Magagumo has 1. Who sits out? It's going to be an interesting week of fights... I'm really looking forward to it. |
| Irlina09-30-03, 09:26 AM | Just found these nice threads and made up a char (S'aarl). I hope I didn't make any mistakes since I'm new to 3.5. |
| Caterane09-30-03, 09:31 AM | Hi Irlina. We are always glad about new members here. I like the Lizardfolk (makes the arena a bit more colored) but you made a mistake: Lizardfolk have 2 racial HD and +1 Level adjustment which counts already as Level 3, plus Cleric it`s lvl 4. I made the same mistake once. |
| Moherajikuyx09-30-03, 09:49 AM | Yes, we use the rule of starting at ECL 2 to study characters minmaxed, but also survivable at low levels. You might want to check out the rules on the gladiators' thread, where I already added your character, and the Monsters as Races (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/MonstersasRaces.rtf) part of the DM guide on the srd. *edit* about the pairings, probably the best course of action is to lower the pairings among same players. |
| Irlina09-30-03, 10:30 AM | Ups, so I got the ECL-rules wrong. Thx. So I'll start thinking again... Well, there aren't many clerics around, so lets have a try. |
| Caterane09-30-03, 01:03 PM | Eh, Irlina, there is no core deity that grants access to both luck and magic... :( rest seems ok so far |
| Jindl09-30-03, 01:31 PM | Although Bonanza the Panza didn't want to do this, under 3.5 core rules a cleric can worship an ethos instead of a diety. These generic clerics can chose any two domains. The preferred weapons for these generic clerics can be found under spiritual weapon I think (its longsword for law, warhammer for good, battleaxe for chaos, and flail for evil ...) So, she doesn't have to worship a diety to have those two domains. Everything else does look good to me. If you are not going to post a character to replace the lizard, then please delete the lizard's post. The DM's for the arena use the build thread alot, so please try to keep it clean and streamlined. The discussion thread we are on, is a different matter. Feel free to post all you want here. (Even if its just to say you're sick, right Cat !) And welcome to the arena. |
| Caterane09-30-03, 01:47 PM | :D |
| Magagumo09-30-03, 01:51 PM | Hmm, Ill be.. you can just pick two domains.... Seems awfully twinkish, but what can you do? *shrug* Also, I am quite glad to see that each of my chars stands at different levels in the arena, may they stay that way ;) |
| Jindl09-30-03, 02:19 PM | Tellish - I think Hurtz started the fight with only 1 smokestick, and used it during the fight. Since Hurtz had spent all 1000 gp before the fight, he would now have no smokesticks. Just a small correction :) -Jindl PS: If you look at Rito Maya, you'll see how Mo* tracks the items used/wealth gained from last fight and items sold/wealth spent between fights. It's a good way of doing it. EDIT: Rito is a bad example. Look at how I track items used/bought on my character, Jindl. |
| Caterane09-30-03, 02:40 PM | Ah, Jindl has Wildshape now. I can`t wait to see his next fight |
| Jindl09-30-03, 03:11 PM | Yeah, the druid has wildshape. Don't know if he'll use it at 5th level, since he doesn't have natural spell yet... BTW: Regarding wild shape, a druid gains the STR, DEX, CON, creature type, natural armor, natural modes of movement, natural attacks, and special attacks (ex. abilities only), and racial skill bonuses of the new shape. He retains his own INT, WIS, CHA, feats, skill ranks, and any equip which can be worn by the new form. All other equip is melded into the new shape and ceases to function. So the question is, do Hps change because of the new Con modifier? I think no, but it has been subject to debate on other threads. What rule will we use here in the arena? Although the PHB 3.5 errata is out, they neglected to discuss wildshape/polymorh/alter self. |
| Tellish_of_Ket09-30-03, 03:49 PM | Wildshape is as polymorph, and polymorhp explicitly excludes that hp's are not gained as was the case in the old polymorph. Ergo i read that as the wildshaper DOES indeed gain the new hp modifier for the con bonus of wildshaping. Tellish. (character edited, and ready to go.) |
| SnarkHunter09-30-03, 04:19 PM | Ah the curse of high level characters...no one to fight... I'd also would like to see a Bilo/Jindle (AH BATS!!!) rematch for that matter, but I'll take what I can get. Man 5th level is where people start exploding...wild shape, 3rd level spells, special mounts :). Good fun, should make for interesting fights. edit: Actually, there is one good reason to give Bilo a by, but its situational. Since Jindle won't be fighting next week that would make-if he won-3 weeks of no fights for Alathar Vierce. If moon- moon wins of course (not too unlikely), it's rematch time. Otherwise I think a case could be made for advancing Bilo. |
| Tellish_of_Ket09-30-03, 05:23 PM | Ok guys, I posted a new combatant. Please check the thread. I need to know if it's legal. As far as i can tell yes. Bugbears are ecl +1. So one level of bugbear and one level of Monk should equal ECL 2 correct? I also went on the assumptions that i get 5 ranks. It could be 4, or it also could be 7. Just curious what the thoughts are. He may need some re-working to legalize before wednesday, so any comments would be much appreciated. Tellish |
| Jindl09-30-03, 05:31 PM | Races that fit our starting 2nd level guidelines: LLMadCow posted this back on pg 12 when talking about lighting conditions vs darkvision. I have adapted it to create a list of available races based on 3.5 core and a 2nd level start. Perhaps we should add this to the arena rules/character creation instructions on the builds thread so as to help new people (and prevent recurring lizardfolk (LLMadCow + Irlina) and bugbear (Caterane + Tellish_of_Ket) builds.) Races that can enter the arena (ie. that have an ECL of 2) By definition: ECL = Racial HD + Class HD + Level Adjustment A race that has 1 racial HD has that racial HD replaced by a Class HD, therefore for ECL calculations a creature with 1 racial HD and 2 class levels is treated as having Racial HD = 0 and Class HD = 2. Standard Races (PHB), All have Racial HD = 0 and LA + 0 Human Dwarf, Hill Elf, High Gnome, Rock Half-elf Half-orc Halfling SubRaces (MM), All have racial HD = 0 and LA +0 or +1 Deep Dwarf, LA +0 Duergar, LA +1 Mountain Dwarf, LA +0 Aquatic Elf, LA +0 Gray Elf, LA +0 Wild Elf, LA +0 Wood Elf, LA +0 Forest Gnome, LA +0 Monster Races (MM) All have racial HD = 0 and LA +0 or +1 Goblin, ECL +0 Kobold, ECL +0 Orc, ECL +0 Aasimar, ECL +1 Merfolk, ECL +1 Hobgoblin, ECL +1 Tiefling, ECL +1 Note: Please let me know if there are any other races that could be added to this list. There could be a 2 racial HD and LA +0 race but I couldn't find one. Monsters not allowed because ECL >2 Bugbears, 3 HD + 1 LA = ECL 4 Centaur, 4 HD + 2 LA = ECL 6 Celestial (Race), 1 HD + 2 LA = ECL 3 (Class level = 1 HD) Drow Elf, 1 HD + 2 LA = ECL 3 (Must take a class level = 1 HD) Fiendish (Race), 1 HD + 2 LA = ECL 3 (Class level = 1 HD) Githyanki, 1 HD + 2 LA = ECL 3 (Must take a class level = 1 HD) Githzerai, 1 HD + 2 LA = ECL 3 (Must take a class level = 1 HD) Gnoll, 2 HD + 1 LA = ECL 3 Svirfneblin, 1 HD +3 LA = ECL 4 (Must take a class level = 1 HD) Grimlock, 2 HD + 2 LA = ECL 4 Lizardfolk, 2 HD + 1 LA = ECL 3 Locathah, 2 HD +1 LA = ECl 3 Sahuagin, 2 HD + 2 LA = ECL 4 Troglodyte, 2 HD + 2 LA = ECL 4 Hopefully this will help with character creation... |
| SnarkHunter09-30-03, 05:50 PM | Tellish: the thing to remember is that when calculating ECL you have to include the LA and the HitDice. A bug bear has 3 hitdice and a LA of 1 so its a 4th level character. |
| Magagumo09-30-03, 08:05 PM | Your hps did not change based on the CON mod of your new shape, they remain identical to your normal form, thus why smart druid shapers have a high CON (I see that 18 of yours, Jindl ;)). However, your saves are based on the Dex and CON of the new shape, so your Fort and Rex could suffer or improve depending on the physical stats of the form. Note: 3.5 "polymorph" refers to "alter self," which states that Class, level, hp, alignment, base saves, base attack bonus all remain the same. That clears that question up ^_^. I like the chart, Jindl. I must admit, my only sadness regarding this arena is that Savage Species race progressions are not core (though, strangely, most of them are accurate to the 3.5 monsters, rakshasa and a few others excepting). Interesting also to note, I have been recently told that monster Manual is being called Core IV... perhaps due to the full revision presented online. Has anyone else heard this? One more thing to note: Snark recently pointed out to me that because Rangers and Paladins do not get spells till 4th level, their caster level is automatically 2nd. This means that my many Scrlls of Longstrider should have cost me 50 gp. I made the change in my latest purchase of one (and I have been led to understand that Snark has done the same with Moon-moon), but I'm concerned about retroactive reparations, as having to deduct any more money would severly hinder Ander's growth and development (Read: he loses the next fight and he gets the axe). Thus, I wonder if we could let this slip on my part go by, and use it as a reminder for the future :) |
| SnarkHunter09-30-03, 09:23 PM | Works for me! ... *sweats* |
| Jindl09-30-03, 11:55 PM | Um, you owe the shopkeeper the 2nd installment on those scrolls. I'm sure he'll come looking on pay day (the next time you win.) Bill collectors always seem to show up on pay day. But I wouldn't worry about paying him off until you win. Note: Jindl just paid an extra 325 gp to the shopkeeper on his pay day (the 2nd installment on a "druidic" scroll: dispel magic.) Regarding the level 5 fights: I assume Magagumo will mod. If you'll run the fight Friday, then I can update Jindl (win or lose) on Saturday, before I leave town on Sunday. If Jindl wins and must face Alathar, then I can update and send tactics (to Snark who can forward them to the correct mod for me...) for the level 6 fight before I go. Of course, Jindl must get by Moon-moon first. I think this is a better option than having Jindl miss 2 weeks + Snark's characters fighting each other. |
| Irlina10-01-03, 04:52 AM | What is the procedure when a 2nd level character looses a fight? Does he reget all his pocessions he used like potions etc? (else you could simply delete him and reconstruct him with a new name) Arnold... eh... Ajax has got too few hp's. He should get 25 (12+7+2x3) not 15. |
| LLMadCow10-01-03, 05:20 AM | Lothar the Orc has been updated and is ready for combat! Allister Swiftfoot has been added where Devon was. Please add him to the Level 2 roster, as he is ready for combat. Question about allies in the arena. What if a character wishes to use Summon Nature's Ally to summon 1d4+1 1st level creatures? Is this allowed? It is a functionality of the character, and you are really castrating a PC who is unable to fully use his spell list to engage in combat. From what I can tell, this would not be allowed according to the current rules. aken to the extreme, the current rulings may exclude using s summon swarm ability, as it is more than one ally, although acting in a swarm mentality. I'm just looking for some rules clarifications and perhaps some good debate... Come to think of it, do the current rules ban a Druid from entering the arena with his animal companion and then summoning creatures for combat...? |
| Moherajikuyx10-01-03, 06:18 AM | LL, you may summon as many allies as you wish, the rules only regard allies coming in with you. |
| Irlina10-01-03, 07:11 AM | One thing about spells cast before combat. Can I buy someone to cast spells on me. Extreme example: 15th level cleric casts magic vestment, extendet on me costs 4th level 40gp*15=600gp (or other spells like greater magic weapon etc.) When this is allowed there is no real point in buying magic weapons. They are MUCH too expensive when you can easily get +5 on shield, armor, weapon for 1800gp per fight. And dispelling level 15 spellcaster isn't easy! Therefore it shoudn't be allowed buying spells, only casting them yourself. |
| Caterane10-01-03, 07:19 AM | I agree with Irlina. @Mo: When do you post the pairings? |
| Tellish_of_Ket10-01-03, 07:32 AM | @Snark: I just took a quick glance at your character and noted you paid 75 gp for 5th lvl caster Shocking Graps. I believe it's Spell lvl X caster lvl x25gp. Making it 1 X 5 X 25 = 125 gp correct? That would leave you a defecit of 24 gp. Anyhow, all final revisions have been made on my replacement character, hope all is in order this time. :) Tellish |
| Moherajikuyx10-01-03, 08:00 AM | FIGHT ON! A note: I allowed in two characters with slight editings to be made still, for sake of simplicity. They're noted with a :t: . Alathar, one of these is you, coz you usually look here on thursdays... |
| Caterane10-01-03, 08:36 AM | @Mo: I just finished my 2nd Character. May he fight this week? Anyway, add him to the roster The Harvester (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1391918#post1391918) *lol* I`ll moderate Bruno again :angel: @Tellish: Tactics received |
| Alathar Vierce10-01-03, 09:14 AM | Well most of the last few weeks I've been horribly sick, so my time on here has been limited. If to no trouble at all could you give roscoes fight to catarene (was thinking of a replacement to roscoe). |
| Tellish_of_Ket10-01-03, 10:04 AM | @ Imizael/Imitril. I think it's manditory now to have two schools of opposition for specialist wizards. I note you only have one listsed? Which is the second one? Hoping Ajax sends in tactics early. I wouldn't mind knowing how soon i can delete that guy. Too bad i messed up on buying my initial kit. If by some miracle he wins, i'll be back in action. hee-haw! Tellish, the kit-less fighter. lol |
| Moherajikuyx10-01-03, 11:25 AM | Urgh! WHY the slow cleric must retire to give the fast mounted warrior his place? DARN! Well, so be it. No problem. |
| Jindl10-01-03, 11:50 AM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket @ Imizael/Imitril. I think it's manditory now to have two schools of opposition for specialist wizards. I note you only have one listsed? Which is the second one? Diviners are the exception. They only have to take one barred school. |
| Caterane10-01-03, 12:28 PM | Both fights vs Mohera :ayyyy!: |
| SnarkHunter10-01-03, 12:40 PM | Oops last time I try to math in my head, Mo when your running fight just remove the masterwork artisans tools (don't need them anyway). I'll remind you when I e-mail tactics. Also I thought that since Moon-moon didn't fight last week he was guarenteed a fight this week? |
| Moherajikuyx10-01-03, 01:20 PM | Snark - 1: OK! 2: Darn! You're right, I forgot; why the heck didn't I write it?!? I usually do. Well, sorry pals, I'm now changing the level 5 fight because I'm dumb :( |
| Pitlords10-01-03, 01:24 PM | Done; to follow my policies, I rolled once, but it was Snark vs. Snark, so I rerolled only once, and it is Moon moon vs. Jindl! Sorry again for the mistake. |
| Jindl10-01-03, 02:38 PM | Is it Moon-moon vs. Jindl -or- is it Monk-bane vs. Dozen. A battle of the mighty horses. The winner gets to kill Rito Maya ... again. just kidding, Mo! :p FYI: The summon special mount (sp) for paladin was included in the 3.5 errata online. They set the caster level, but that was pretty much the only change. |
| Moherajikuyx10-01-03, 03:47 PM | You'd have to hope that I do some stupid mistakes in buying stuff!!!! ...Again. |
| Jindl10-01-03, 03:50 PM | Rito's getting that potion of fly now, isn't he, Mo? Ah well, somehow I neglected to have Jindl buy a new potion of fly (since I used mine in my last fight vs. Rito.) So they only way Jindl will be flying is if he wildshapes. And since he still doesn't have natural spell, that's pretty unlikely. I'm sure Alathar Vierce would agree that the potion of flying is a good bargain at 750 gp. |
| Caterane10-01-03, 05:07 PM | @Mo: Asides from lacking enough money for a potion of fly - even if you didn`t forget to buy the potion I would`ve bought a second scroll of dispel magic, just to be sure... So be glad: we both saved money. Perhaps I don´t shatter your crossbow... ...perhaps :devil: Oh by the way: what is the alignment of Maril? Neutral sad? Is this true neutral? |
| Jindl10-01-03, 09:17 PM | Tactics sent for my 3 combatants. Tactics received for Lothar and Kelek. Please run Jindl vs Moon-moon as soon as you can (I want to read it before I go out of town on Sunday). I *must* run my fights before Saturday, so please send the rest of your tactics to me, ASAP. Good luck to all the combatants !! -Jindl |
| Galamdring10-02-03, 05:49 AM | I have decided to retire Tanya, Silver Moon, and start with a diferent one. Since this is my first time and i don't have much experience, i have made some errors during character design. I will delete my character and replace it soon (with something better, i hope :) ) |
| Moherajikuyx10-02-03, 08:11 AM | Why? She's a good character. Wait until the match, at least, so you don't cheat poor Imizael who already had to leave a character unplaying: he would see his two characters fight each other... |
| Jindl10-02-03, 09:03 AM | Galamdring - Each player is allowed 2 characters. DM's may have more than 2. Since Tanya is your only character at the moment, you may enter another and leave her active (to see if she wins this round...) If you still don't want her, then you can retire her after the fights. Sorry Imizael - No free rides. Mo - perhaps we should institute a rule, no character retirement between pairings and fights. I didn't like the whole Corundrum v. Matrim Stormwind thing earlier (free level for the dwarf wiz ?!? and he didn't have to use ANY resources ?!?). Or at least institute a rule that if a character retires after pairings, then either replace that character with the doesn't play person, or if it was an even round, then the opponent becomes the doesn't play person. No free rides. -Jindl |
| Galamdring10-02-03, 09:36 AM | Very well... I will continue playing with Tanya, and i will decide what to do with her after this next round. I will post my second character as well... Mara, ThunderStorm By the way, can someone tell me if it is possible to trip an opponent and then, while he/she/it :) is on the ground, sunder the weapon carried? Thanks in advance. |
| Jindl10-02-03, 09:46 AM | Improved trip allows an extra attack, which could be used for a sunder/disarm/grapple attempt, AFAIK. |
| Caterane10-02-03, 01:12 PM | Received tactics from Barrel master Telish of Ket Jindl Bruno`s tactic is missing... |
| Magagumo10-02-03, 01:38 PM | Bruon's tactics will be forthcoming... I'm simply lazy when it comes to these things... :D Err.. I mean.. I am still deep in thought, regarding the tricky and brilliant tactics which Bruno will utilize aginst the Elder... ;) And please, Cat, no more "foolish old grandfather" Bruno, it wounds my sensibilities to see him played like a harmless fool. Fool, yes. Kind or harmless, certainly not :-P |
| Caterane10-02-03, 01:45 PM | A pity. I`ll see what I can do... I will run the fight as soon as I have your tactics |
| Caterane10-02-03, 01:53 PM | Ähem, Barrel Master you edited your character today. According to the rules you lose the fight if you edit your sheet after the paairings have been anounced. I`ll run it though |
| Imizael10-02-03, 04:03 PM | I don't want free rides - it would not be fun. I would like to see a rule - you can't retire a character unless he has 3 or more fights if you don't like it - fine but u use one of places for a character.That would not allow changing characters often and it would prevent deleting and posting almost identical character after loosing his fight (for 2nd lev characters ). If opponent retires there can be no level awarded or gold - i see no reason why a character who did nothing should get awards ... |
| Moherajikuyx10-02-03, 04:31 PM | Well, isn't that a bit harsh? If one gets bored fast, let him be so, I say. After all it's not such a problem. The proposal of letting level 2 characters have always 1kgp, even though they use resources and lose, looks very appealing to me. |
| Tellish_of_Ket10-02-03, 04:43 PM | Just a note on editing characters after pairings are announced. I dunno, but i wouldn't have mind making some changes as well, as i saw a few things in hindsight. Can i change them as well? Just a thought. Otherwise shouldn't we observe the rules that we all agreed to play under? Not trying to be difficult or anything, but i saw a few things about my guy i would love to have changed, but for the rule of no editing characters after pairings, he's stuck like that until the fight is over. Tellish |
| Caterane10-02-03, 04:47 PM | @Magagumo: Friday 13:00! Tomorow is a german national holiday (the annexion of Italy) so I have a bit time which can`t be said about my weekend. @Tellish: No editing or you lose. I`ve already started to moderate. @Mo: Just kidding. It is "the fall of Rome" day :D |
| SnarkHunter10-02-03, 04:52 PM | If you've noticed something is off, and it does happen, don't edit the sheet! If the DM hasn't copied your info yet, then he doesn't know what you've changed. If he has copied it then he might not factor in the change when he runs the fight. Just mention it in your tactics when you e-mail and change it after the fight is over. |
| Magagumo10-02-03, 04:56 PM | Hmm, I think the constant rediting/remaking of chars isnt bad at all (provided it isnt done immediately before a fight). Since a remade charcter must start from 2nd lvl, it isn't exactly unfair to let them remake a bad or less-than-tweaked character. After all, this is a min/max arena, and we are all trying to make the best characters possible. I honestly am considering the issues with Ander with a critical eye, can't say I wouldn't remake him if things go sour... Anyways, I would also like to address the issue of the disposable items. In all honesty, the use of potions, scrolls, alchemy items, etc at this level make a huge difference in combat. However, this is counteracted by the factor that these items are gone forever, win or lose. Now, I have been incredbily stingy with Ander's money, as I know that certain reusable items could boost his potential in the future, thus causing me to save up. Ander honestly spends too little. In contrast, Alton Thorngage was a money pit, spending 3k on a fight which, while the potions gave him a nice edge, was won by a charcter who utilized 1/10th the monetary value of items (Alathar Vierce and enlarge person). Alton spent too much. Thus, we see the need for balance, we see wizards who are wisely scribing scrolls for possible eventuallities (see Bilo's Scroll of Prot from Arrows), while other characters are stocking up potions and items for possible situations (Lucient's potion stock, de Bernier's and Jindl's scroll supply, Lothar's universal solvent *shakes fist*).. you get the idea. To return to my point, if we allow people to get their cash back at 2nd level, we may be promoting a "money pit" style, which might lead to crippled characters at higher levels. I don't know, I do see the factor of not crippling 2nd level characters before they're off the ground..... What do other people think? |
| Tellish_of_Ket10-02-03, 05:12 PM | Actually Snark, that's exactly what i did do. I e-mail to the moderator any errors i saw in my character build. Errors, not things i wanted to change for changes sake. Thanks for the advice though. On the issue of new second level characters. After totally blowing it with my very first character (it's the reason i gave him 18 wisdom dangit) and failing my very first save, it appears i'm stuck with a completely inept character. Everyone i fight from here on end will have a huge head-start on me. However, i'm willing to give it a shot and see if he wins. Several times at least before i delete him. Who knows, i may be paired up against another 2nd lvl player drained of rescources someday, and also i'm gunning to beat Rito's record. :) :) If the majority rules on the 2nd lvl character always starts with 1000gp then so be it, i will change things accordingly, however, my vote is no. There's just something wrong about having unlimited coin. Looking at it from a spoiled child's perspective, how is he supposed to learn the value of money if it's given to him all the time, regardless of his frugalities? I believe in learning from my mistakes. I think it makes us all better players. If we have to live with what is normally an "unplayable" broke, 2nd level character for a few weeks, then wouldn't it teach us all some kind of lesson? I think so. Well, that's my view on the money pit debate. Tellish |
| Jindl10-02-03, 05:52 PM | Well, all new characters start at 1000 gp. If your 2nd level character dies, then either bring him back (and suffer the loss of any resources expended) or create a new character (even if its a variant of the one who lost) I seem to remember Milo Darkleaf, the halfling, who died and was replaced by his identical twin er I mean "cousin", Bilo Darkleaf. This is virtually the same as allowing all 2nd level characters, regardless of win-loss record, to have 1000 gp worth of equip. So Roscoe, could easily become an identical character, Boscoe, who has the full 1000 gp equip. Or we can stop being silly and let Roscoe re-equip up to 1000 gp (total). Same difference to me. FYI: Regarding editing after pairings, it is customary to ask the unedited player if he wishes to proceed with the fight. This happened once before (and you can read about it on page 7 of this thread.) That is all. -Jindl :) |
| Jindl10-02-03, 06:02 PM | Deleted. |
| Moherajikuyx10-02-03, 06:02 PM | Yes, well, Magagumo's right too. Let's see. Well, let's keep on as is: to get back the money you must at least change a letter in the name... The no editing is serious people! It's because editing the build brings to editing the equipment to match the opponent, which is very bad. BTW... Karse vs. Imitril done! edit: sh1t. |
| Jindl10-02-03, 06:04 PM | Deleted. |
| Jindl10-02-03, 06:05 PM | Oops. Deleted. |
| Moherajikuyx10-02-03, 06:15 PM | Darn tags, now it's readable. |
| barrel_master10-02-03, 09:39 PM | Okay, this may be stupid but isn't a trip attack a standard action? |
| SnarkHunter10-02-03, 11:06 PM | It is an attack action, which means it can be used in place of a regular attack. I.e. you are a 6th level fighter with two attacks. You could have the +6 attack be a trip and the +1 attack be a standard attack. Sometimes you just know a character is bad. In milo's case, I knew after one fight... Bilo is much better :). A credit to the Darkleaf family name. |
| barrel_master10-03-03, 01:04 AM | Originally posted by SnarkHunter It is an attack action, which means it can be used in place of a regular attack. I.e. you are a 6th level fighter with two attacks. You could have the +6 attack be a trip and the +1 attack be a standard attack. Sometimes you just know a character is bad. In milo's case, I knew after one fight... Bilo is much better :). A credit to the Darkleaf family name. Hello, I'm inclined to agree with you. However, how is Alathar able to trip a guy then attack him in the same round? (Look at Alathar Vince's (sp?) fights) Is it something else? |
| Alathar Vierce10-03-03, 01:31 AM | Improved trip allows for a free attack on a successful trip, so once I down them on the ground I get an attempt to strike at them as well.(and then take the +1 attack afterwards) |
| Jindl10-03-03, 02:17 AM | Ander vs. Lothar is posted. I am tired. Going to bed. That fight was 35 rounds... Good night. Good fight. |
| Caterane10-03-03, 04:26 AM | Oh my God. Waiting until invisibility wears off :nonono: Good idea to skip the rounds. Would`ve done the same. Bruno`s tactics received. I start with the fight after breakfast (which could take a while :angel: ) :whatsthis |
| Moherajikuyx10-03-03, 05:38 AM | Tomar Vilir vs. Alexie de Berniers posted! *edit* I forgot: the rolls are here (http://krisinchico.brinkster.net/searchroll.asp?username=TomarAlexie). |
| Imizael10-03-03, 06:38 AM | from srd: "The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not)" So wheather the orc actually has a dex bonus or not he still should get dmg from sneak attack couse he would normaly be denided his bonus couse the attacker wasn't visible to him. btw:I sad to see tactics : wait till rage off , wait till invisibility is off , wait till his fly ends etc etc. My next character should be a thief with very high hide ... I would buy him a food rations and then hide waiting for my opponent to die from starving LOL. Now every fight will begin with hiding and waiting till all effects will fade off ... whats the point of buying a potions then ? Imo waiting characters should get dmg from the arena owners to start fighting !! people whats a fight not a hiding contest. |
| Moherajikuyx10-03-03, 07:10 AM | LOL this is good! If the gladiators hide near the border, they get rocks in the head!! LOL About the SA, I think you're wrong. |
| SnarkHunter10-03-03, 08:57 AM | Note to self...ranks in concentration are a handy thing... Perhaps Jorge de Berniers will have better luck :). |
| Jindl10-03-03, 10:20 AM | Originally posted by Imizael from srd: "The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not)" So wheather the orc actually has a dex bonus or not he still should get dmg from sneak attack couse he would normaly be denided his bonus couse the attacker wasn't visible to him. Actually, I thought the same thing. But then I looked up the uncanny dodge ability under the barbarian class and it said: "Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 2nd level, a barbarian retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized..." So uncanny dodge does protect you against the sneak attacks of an invisible or hiding rogue (since hiding = invisible in terms of game mechanics). But a blinking rogue would still get SA damage... -Jindl |
| Moherajikuyx10-03-03, 10:24 AM | I wanna retry the barbarian/cleric Bonanza thingy! It catches me WAAAY too much! :D I'll make him a human: dwarves are SO cooler, but well... Too bad. |
| Jindl10-03-03, 10:30 AM | Hrm, can spellcasters cast while prone? Can you color spray when you're flat on your back? Hrm, do you have to stand to complete somatic components... I wonder. Nope. You can cast while prone. Gotta remember that for if Jindl ever faces Alathar... ;) |
| Caterane10-03-03, 11:41 AM | I finished my 2 fights. Here we go: Hurtz (Tellish of Ket) vs. Ajax (Barrel Master) (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1482685#post1482685) and Eniolissaryn the Elder (Jindl) vs. Bruno Willikens (Magagumo) (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1482685#post1482685) :angel: |
| Galamdring10-03-03, 12:11 PM | I am not trying to edit my character in any way... I am just creating another one, which will, hopefully, be better than my current one. Basically, i am dropping a lvl3 char to start again with a lvl2 one. :) |
| barrel_master10-03-03, 12:36 PM | Originally posted by Alathar Vierce Improved trip allows for a free attack on a successful trip, so once I down them on the ground I get an attempt to strike at them as well.(and then take the +1 attack afterwards) Hummm... I see... but didn't you use your attacks to bring him down? IMPROVED TRIP [GENERAL] Prerequisites: Int 13, Combat Expertise. Benefit: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when you attempt to trip an opponent while you are unarmed. You also gain a +4 bonus on your Strength check to trip your opponent. If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt. Normal: Without this feat, you provoke an attack of opportunity when you attempt to trip an opponent while you are unarmed. if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt. |
| SnarkHunter10-03-03, 01:34 PM | See barrel you misquoted this part right here If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt. So even though your attack was used for the trip, you are awarded an extra attack, at the same attack bonus as your trip attempt, because of the feat. Jindle: once I saw my opponent I thought the same thing, and yeah it would be possible. But then I looked at my sheet and realized-hey I don't have ranks in concentration, and the AC of a prone character is never good...So I figured I could stand up and cast it then...but I never stayed up long enough. so yeah Jorge gets Concentration instead of craft :(. Cat: double fight, that was really cool. |
| SnarkHunter10-03-03, 02:14 PM | I had a question, how are people determing distance and move speeds in the Arena? Honestly I think this is more complicated then needs to be worried about but I developed a few spreedsheet formulas if people care to use them. The one that works the best, since people tend to travel in diagonals a lot, is the pythagorean triangle. So you count up the distance traveled from point B to point B by first counting up the number of squares traveled on the x axis, that =A. Then the number traveled on the Y, =B. A^2+B2=C2, and the square root of C will give us the distance traveled in a straight line to the location of interest. For instance say someone wants to move from the starting position A (-20,0) to a space behind a big rock (-15,-3). A=5 and B=3, so C=5.830951895. Rounding up and multiplying by 5, we find you need a move speed of 30 to get behind the rock in the first round and still take an action. If you want to plug that into an excel spread sheat (which is what I did) copy the following =SQRT((B6^2)+(C6^2)), In a box and replace B6 and C6 with where ever you want to type values for A and B respectively. ... your welcome! |
| sloisel10-03-03, 02:35 PM | If I make a spellcaster that summons a lot, then is the following true? 1) I can't use the 1d3 or 1d4+1 options for summon (monster|nature's ally) II and above, because I can only have a single minion at a time. 2) I can't cast summon spells every round to build up a little army. 3) I can't cast summon spells if I have a horse or familiar in the arena. 4) I can't cast a summon spell to get a more useful monster if the currently summoned monster turns out to be useless; I'd have to either wait for the current monster to run out, or dismiss it with a standard action, kill it, or otherwise get rid of it. 5) Is the limit one ally per battle, or one ally at a time? In other words, if my ally dies, can I summon another one, or have I used my ally slot already and am stuck without an ally? Also, my first character, Trom, is basically ready. I'm working on a gray elf wizard now, although I just realized there's another one. Sebastien Loisel |
| Magagumo10-03-03, 02:36 PM | *sigh* Very impressive fight with the Elder. Few Points: One, I'm an illusionist, not a diviner :-P Two, Using a familiar to pinpoint people is shaky (considering you can't see what they see), but I think it combines ell with area effect (and Bruno was sleeping by the end, so I'm not really complaining). Three, I am a brutal idiot. A hideous typographical fiend... in my tactics, I reported that Bruno would cast Ghoul Touch, and use Tommy to make said touch, but accidently typed Chill Touch in the second sentence. BY using Ghoul Touch (assuming same Fort save by Elder), he would have been paralyzed for at least 3 rounds, allowing me to coup de grace him.... I am not suggesting a re-fight or anything, for it was hard-fought and hard-won, and I congratulate you Jindl. I'm just really steamed that I typed Chill Touch! Grr!! I'm ok, really :D Oh, finally, Tommy would not have damaged Elder with his claws, if he was making a Touch attack. Claws are good vs. unarmored oppoenents (which the Elder was) but it is preferable to use Touch in the future.... Tommy II (may the first one "live" forever) has been purchased. Bruno will mourn the loss of his companion, and the many eyes he could have pecked out... On other fight, sorry for 35 round madness, Jindl :) But when you've got the means... (Note: Oppoenents who must roll a 6 to hit me and kill me 2 hits scare me, thus I hide until they are far weaker :-P. Recommendation, get a Spot chk) |
| Jindl10-03-03, 02:38 PM | posted by Catarane Since the Elder is the most intelligent being in the world ... Hahaha! That's great !! Good double fight, Cat!! I'll try to make the elder's bonuses to spot more clear to read. The +2 is from alertness. The +3 is granted from having an owl familiar (although I didn't realize it wouldn't apply in the arena.) I do have a question: Does the +3 spot for brightly lit that a hawk provides apply in the arena? If so, I may need to "polymorph" Bubo into a hawk (hehehe). BTW: Magagumo - the Elder had prepared see invisibility as well, although he never ended up casting it. Bruno might want to pick that one up... I do wish they would bottle - see invisibility. Potions of that stuff would sell like wildfire... |
| Jindl10-03-03, 02:43 PM | Originally posted by sloisel If I make a spellcaster that summons a lot, then is the following true? 1) I can't use the 1d3 or 1d4+1 options for summon (monster|nature's ally) II and above, because I can only have a single minion at a time. 2) I can't cast summon spells every round to build up a little army. 3) I can't cast summon spells if I have a horse or familiar in the arena. 4) I can't cast a summon spell to get a more useful monster if the currently summoned monster turns out to be useless; I'd have to either wait for the current monster to run out, or dismiss it with a standard action, kill it, or otherwise get rid of it. 5) Is the limit one ally per battle, or one ally at a time? In other words, if my ally dies, can I summon another one, or have I used my ally slot already and am stuck without an ally? Also, my first character, Trom, is basically ready. I'm working on a gray elf wizard now, although I just realized there's another one. It's not that you can't HAVE more than one minion. Its that when the fight begins you can only have one minion in the arena. After the fight starts, you are free to summon as many as you want. Actually there are two other grey elf wizards (Imitril and the Elder). But we welcome more. And welcome to the arena. |
| Caterane10-03-03, 02:49 PM | @Magagumo: Ghoul touch wouldn`t have done you any good, Maga. Look at p.53 PHB: If the spell has a duration other than instantaneous, it stops affecting the familiar if it moves farther than 5' away and will not affect the familiar again once he returns. Be glad you mistyped your tactics so the Elder has been severly damaged with no potion to cure himself. The fight could easily have turned around; if you made the listen check for example As for the pinpointing with the familiar: The Elder still had a See invisibility spell at his disposal, so no gain here. But I cahnged the Diviner thing @Jindl: Hawk`s gain their racial bonus anywhere, see MM p273 |
| Jindl10-03-03, 03:12 PM | Cat- I see that the animal (magical beast) gets its own spot bonus anywhere, but the familiar grants the wizard a spot bonus as well (see familiar sidebar in PHB.) The owls bonus is in shadowy illumination and the hawks is in brightly lit illumination. Would the bonus from a hawk apply in the arena? -Jindl |
| Caterane10-03-03, 03:18 PM | @Jindl: Ah yes, there it is. When I read about the owl`s shadowy illumination description somewhere back in my mind I thought that hawks had a similar restriction but I just checked the MM. In any case, I would`ve decided to NOT grant the bonus - just to keep things fair. I don`t know how other DMs will handle this but my arena is "neutral" illuminated |
| Magagumo10-03-03, 03:18 PM | Umm... Cat? Tommy would have delivered the Ghoul Touch for me, under the abilities of a familiar.... Yes, I realize that the invisbility wore off when he left. To that matter, if the Elder didn't see me, how did he target me with Scorching Ray? As for the Spot bonuses, I assume we are still following the standard that there is enough light/or darkness to gain the bonuses, just at there are roots for entangle, enough light for dazzle... etc. I agree with the see invis spell, Jindl, that's on my list of things to pick up... Final note, Cat, I suppose I need to mention that the illusion was farther away from me, I was trying to present the Elder with two separate targets, targets which he couldn't hit at the same time with a sleep spell... no big really, just a note in general. |
| Caterane10-03-03, 03:27 PM | @Magagumo: *sigh* >>>Yes, I realize that the invisbility wore off when he left. To that matter, if the Elder didn't see me, how did he target me with Scorching Ray?<<< Look. Bruno was down and sleeping. The Elder had a See invisibliity spell available. It wouldn`t`ve made any difference. The fight was over at that point. But to settle this: I just rolled a Listen check for Bruno as The Elder casts his See invisibility and he failed. >>>Final note, Cat, I suppose I need to mention that the illusion was farther away from me, I was trying to present the Elder with two separate targets, targets which he could hit at the same time...<<< I know since I`ve run Bruno before but he targeted you in the round you cast the image so you hadn`t time to let it run away. Letting appear the image anywhere other than the spot where you were standing would`ve spoiled your ruse attempt before it started. Hope I cleared things up. |
| Magagumo10-03-03, 03:36 PM | Yes, things are quite cleared up, sorry about this. I'm afraid I'm posting while angry at myself, and I apologize. -I have no probs with the adjuducation after I was unconscious, I'm not sure why i said anything in the first place. -Good point on the illusion, but you are giving the charcter too much credit. The point of illusions are that they could be possible, but the opponent won't know until they interact with them. I have 7 10-ft cubes to work with, so I could easily make the illusion of me running from behind the pillar and preparing to cast a spell on him (a glowing blue hand, for instance.) Will saves disbelive the illusions, but they must first interact with them. It didn't make a real difference in this fight (I think), but it is something you need to consider... (Illusions are really hard to adjuicate, and being too free with them (they deal subdual damage if player failed to disbelieve) or too stringent (well, that doesnt make sense, so they auto-disbelive) can be easy to do. Just my cup of copper.) |
| Jindl10-03-03, 03:37 PM | Cat- Wizards are a pain in the butt, huh... They're still more fun to moderate than a rogue who waits 35 rounds for his opponents invis to wear off... I agree with Magagumo regarding the spot bonuses. Let the spot bonus from owls and hawks both apply in the arena (its still nuetral illumination if it favors both.) Magagumo- The Elder could see you after he hit you with glitterdust. Thats how he targeted the scorching ray. ******************************** All in all, I think Cat did a good job running two very difficult characters. I also like his narrative style (even if his concept of character personality doesn't always match ours.) I just can't believe that the Elder almost got killed by a hawk with a chill touch running. Gotta get some points in Con... -Jindl |
| Magagumo10-03-03, 03:39 PM | Good point, Jindl, I must also compliment you on the dual fight, Cat, that was an interesting set-up/ read. As for the Elder, Jindl, I like him a lot. He definetely had saves that I could hardly make, but you really must protect him... (if you think the Chill Touch was bad, try a Ghoul or Vampiric Touch ;)). All in all, i think it went well, may our paths never cross again, or so help me you will die by that Fort Save ^_~ |
| Tellish_of_Ket10-03-03, 04:17 PM | Don't worry, i had a simliar beef with my fight against the Elder. Although according to my tactics i'm not sure it would have made much of a difference. See, when he sent the owl over to my last known position to spot me, i didn't see the -3 (for being 30' away) since i had moved. That meant it would have failed it's first spot check, and i wouldn't have to go down as the fastest and easiest fight in Arean history. :p Even though i gave myself an 18 wisdom to help protect myself from all the will-save spell casters out there for a few levels until i go monk. But either way, i think i'd have lost. My tactics weren't the greatest as i was anticipating an invisible elder holding the charge of a 5th lvl shocking grasp with my metal armor. If i had gunned for him right from the start and forget the sneaky stuff, AND make that first save, i think things would have been different, but as it stands, i think i have the shortest fight in arena history. Curses on your "magical beast" either way. Tellish |
| Jindl10-03-03, 04:27 PM | You know, Bubo could be pinpointing your position by circling above you. It doesn't have to be a "mental image" kind of thing. Sleep is an area effect and the Elder knows you are on the ground. So if Bubo says "here" while he flies directly above you, then the Elder merely targets the ground under Bubo, and catches you in the area of effect. Pretty simple tactics really. They train falcons in RL to do this kind of stuff, so certainly a familiar with an Int of 7 (more than Lothar, ha!) can do it. -Jindl |
| Magagumo10-03-03, 05:12 PM | Yep, no disagreements there, Jindl :D May your familiar be the laser guide to your sleep-bomb ;) Of course, the balance is that you have a 4 or 5 hp bird flying above your opponent, making no moves to conceal itself. I know a few people who would love to take advantage of that... One other note, Cat, Bruno and Tommy can not be both effected by the sleep spell. You have to pick one or the other (as both are 3 HD creatures). I don't know how we, as moderators, should decide between 2 creatures of equal HD that occupy the same space (as the spell notes that those closest to its origin are affected first). Ideas? Edit: Ventriloquism does not replicate your voice, it actually projects it from a new location. Thusly, Listen checks to detect spellcasting will not hear him, but the spell instead. The Will save allows the caster to realize the voice is not real (but please do not automatically allow them to ignore the voice w/o a Will save.... the familiar might convey that it sees Bruon, but w/o a Will save, the opponent would still think Bruno is where the voice originates....) Oh, and don't forget size mods in touch attacks, Tommy's was an AC 15 (+3 dex, +2 size), not that it makes a difference vs. a 20 ;) |
| Caterane10-03-03, 05:39 PM | One other note, Cat, Bruno and Tommy can not be both effected by the sleep spell. You have to pick one or the other (as both are 3 HD creatures). I don't know how we, as moderators, should decide between 2 creatures of equal HD that occupy the same space (as the spell notes that those closest to its origin are affected first). Ideas? Well, I would roll percentage dice (but please do not automatically allow them to ignore the voice w/o a Will save.... the familiar might convey that it sees Bruon, but w/o a Will save, the opponent would still think Bruno is where the voice originates....) In our case, the Elder stood 10 feet away, his familiar confirmed his suspicions, Bruno glittered more like a chrismas tree while he was blinded and Eniolissaryn is the most intelligent being in the world. I think that makes it more than up for a failed save to disbelief the illusion. Look Matthew, my character (Ebelin Barnahdy) also uses illusions and if there`s one moderator who appreciates innovative use of spells it`s me but sometimes the circumstances make them less effective... In the fight vs the Elder you would`ve fared better with damage spells; even an acid splash would have sufficed. |
| Moherajikuyx10-03-03, 05:52 PM | Yeah... The elder is like... An elder. He's practically dead already: you were better off making the familiar attack :D But this was not to say this. This was to say.... but the fact that the orc is called like a german washing powder did calm him somewhat :bigeyes: :ayyyy!: :bow: Cat what a work, I'm glad I recruited you!!! Don't worry if people complain a bit: it means they love it!!! (No one complains about what he doesn't care) So it's OK!!! (I complain often too gh) The heart attack... :rofl: GREAT! |
| SnarkHunter10-03-03, 07:32 PM | Hoo ha, first fight finished, between Rizzen and Tanya (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1486612#post1486612) ! Man I like the barbarian fights. Rage swing hit, rage swing hit, swing hit, swing hit, Ah! I die! The end. mmm. |
| Jindl10-03-03, 09:06 PM | Yarin Pach, KerlanRayne vs. Kelek, Tellish_of_Ket is posted. KerlanRayne - I fixed two of your numbers, they are in bold type in the fight post. -Jindl |
| Magagumo10-03-03, 10:29 PM | Hmm.. Glitterdust, curse your reasonable hide, Caterane, you win this time!!:D And as for the familiar, one more chill touch (3 uses per cast) would have dropped the infamous Elder! :P So I hold no grudge on the scorching ray.. (I requested the similar death of Bubo after all :)) As for the percentage die, sound slike a good plan. Remeber folks, familiars can wake you up, end the hideous sleep cycle of death! ^_^ Lord, I will be very afraid when Elder gets Deep Slumber, Jindl... Ahh.. fun fights make me smile and cheery... Jindl & Moon-moon posted. Skipped 24 rounds... feel my pain, Jindl, feel my pain.. ;) Very impressive fight overall. One note, we only allow a gladiator to enter with one ally, correct? So why is Moon-moon prevented from entering in with his horse, if he summons his mount mid-battle? Theoretically, this is no different from the summon spells which we are permitting... Just a thought I had. |
| SnarkHunter10-03-03, 11:38 PM | GRacious me...I'm never one to go queitly into the night, I assure you, but this is...very unexpected. Wow...I guess what they say about the gods looking over children and fools is true indeed. Congratulations Jindle a fine fight, and thanks for having Bilo guest-star in your own, I was going to do the same but you beat me to it :). |
| Jindl10-03-03, 11:39 PM | Mag- I do think that Moon-moon could enter on a regular warhorse and then summon Monk-bane. That seems to be the same as a Jindl entering with dozen and summoning a swarm of bats...so it should be fine. But why would Moon-moon want a regular warhorse? Especially at this level? Also, I have a question regarding scrolls: We will be seeing the resist energy scrolls more and more in the future. I'm pretty sure that a caster has to make all decisions regarding the spell when he creates the scroll. Therefore, when you buy the scroll you must list these decisions. For example: You can't just list a scroll: resist elements. You have to list it as a scroll: resist elements (lightning). It makes a big difference... trust me. What do you guys think? |
| sloisel10-04-03, 12:21 AM | Can you start the fight hiding behind a tower shield? |
| Moherajikuyx10-04-03, 04:16 AM | Mag - Uhm, yes, I guess that's the same. Sloisel - yes |
| Tellish_of_Ket10-04-03, 07:17 AM | Hey, thanks for the fights, i think they were both well done. I know fighting defensively and seeking cover would mean i'd need a 19 to hit, but so would Ajax. If i had stood toe to toe, or anything else why my poor-as-a-peasent fighter it'd be over in one round. So i just played the game of 50/50. I really had no other options. Too bad the crowd turned on me, i was getting quite pumped by the 4th or 5th round of dodging instant death. lol And as for the other fight, i seems i can't make saving throws or have ppl fail saves against me...hmm. I see a trend. Oh well, on to next week. A note on the poisoned bolts. The reason i started with them poisoned was that we could have stuff that lasted longer than 24hrs and i read through the dmg on how long a poison lasts. And i really, really must have been asleep at the wheel. I did not notice the scroll of pro. arrows on him at the beginning of match. It would have made a lot of difference. grrr....my blindness. "A poisoned weapon or object retains its venom until the weapon scores a hit or the object is touched (unless the poison is wiped off before the target comes in contact with it)." dmg p.296 [POISON] If ya'll say bolts must be poisoned in the arena then fine, i'll update my tactics accordingly next time. Tellish |
| Caterane10-04-03, 07:52 AM | @Tellish: I think the reason for not letting you poison the bolt is that there is a chance of failure. What if Tellish poisened himself in his cabine the day before? I would say if there is no chance of poisoning yourself (Poison use ability) then you could do it before the fight begins... after all, we allowed things with +24h durations and an assassin would gain more benefit from his ability. @Magagumo: I see forward to run Bruno again but you would do good to not give me too much leeway in character description :D Great fight! Moon-Moon vs Jindl. I hope Ebelin wins his fight and meets the famous Jindl! It would be an honor. I`m just not sure which tactic would be best against him... http://www.sebastian-sutor.de/smilies/merlin.gif http://www.sebastian-sutor.de/smilies/robin.gif http://www.sebastian-sutor.de/smilies/knight.gif |
| Galamdring10-04-03, 08:58 AM | I guess Kord really likes me :bow: ... I still can't believe the outcome of the fight... A great deal of luck and HUGE amounts of damage... :nonono: INSANE!!! What can i say... I thank Snark and Rizzen (i wish you luck for the next round) |
| Caterane10-04-03, 09:19 AM | He guys, you know what? I`m preparing a lecture about D&D which I will give a paper on at my university. The topic is virtual identities and I managed to convince my professor that D&D perfectly fits into this (Rolled a natural 20 on my diplomacy check :D ) The only thing that I`m worried about is that the seminar is filled with 90% woman. I`m not sure if they are interested in it... but then, who cares? |
| Jindl10-04-03, 09:31 AM | Billy Bob the Enchanter. A really really old gray elf wizard who specializes in Enchantment. Nicknamed : Geezer? Now where have I seen that before. Bah! The Elder scoffs at your clone (and proudly displays his 17 hps compared to your 2 hps.) All kidding aside: the reason I stopped at old age when making the elder, is that the penalties to Con became too great. How can you survive when you gain 1 hp a level. If you're opponent gets off a magic missle, you're dead. And please avoid clones. If it was accidental that's fine, but during character creation you may want to look over everyone else's characters to avoid making a clone. -Jindl @ Cat - cool on the seminar, but may I make a suggestion. To interest the audience (90% women) I suggest that you spend some time discussing how DnD players remember every character, talk (and brag) about the great successes and failures of their past characters, and identify themselves with them. For example: In my pen and paper game, I play a Sor 8/Arc Dev 5/ Div Oracle 1/Archmage 2 a.k.a. Corbin the Archmage a.k.a. nicknamed "the Dragon of Mystra". And oh the stories I could tell about him (I played him up from 1st level...over the past 2 years...). Anyway, good luck! |
| Caterane10-04-03, 10:33 AM | but may I make a suggestion. To interest the audience (90% women) I suggest that you spend some time discussing how DnD players remember every character In order to increase the attention of my female audience I`ve already increased my visits to the local Fitness center :D But thanks for your suggestions. Yes, I partly covered this already. The gamer`s bond with a PC is an important element in all RPGs and one of the main reasons why it is different from other games (tabletop, boardgames,...) |
| Jindl10-04-03, 12:07 PM | Please examine Jindl of the High Forest's updated background story. (Especially you Snark, since Moon-moon is in it...) My characters will be updated for this week. I will send generic tactics to the mod's for their battles next friday. |
| Tellish_of_Ket10-04-03, 04:57 PM | Question on Scribing Scrolls. Scribing a scroll costs spell level * caster level * 25gp + special component costs. When then are ppl paying only 16gp for scribing 1st level scrolls? Am i missing something? If it is only 16gp then i have a refund due. :) Tellish |
| Kukanil10-04-03, 05:25 PM | It costs 1/2 the normal base price to scribe scrolls. |
| SnarkHunter10-04-03, 07:06 PM | 2/3rds actually since we're not factoring in xp costs. That puts a 1st level scroll at 16gp 6 silver and 6 copper. I think people are just dropping the .XX costs for these items, which is understandable though I would prefer if they rounded up to 17gp... Edit: Oh wow Jindle, that is awesome. You inspire me to edit my characters backstories as well. |
| Magagumo10-04-03, 07:49 PM | On the note of Resist elements, Jindl, i would say that the choice of elements is still made at the casting time of the spell, otherwise would need to be choosing the effects of bestow curse when they made the scroll, or the mission of the creature affected by quest/gease before they ever mmet them... You see what I mean? Since the spell dictates it's the caster's choice (like when one chooses targets for magic missle) they should be able make it when the spell is cast. We don't make a person memorize for a specific energy type after all.... ;) And now, I must read updated backstories... |
| sloisel10-04-03, 10:02 PM | Originally posted by Jindl Billy Bob the Enchanter. A really really old gray elf wizard who specializes in Enchantment. Nicknamed : Geezer? Now where have I seen that before. Bah! The Elder scoffs at your clone (and proudly displays his 17 hps compared to your 2 hps.) Sorry man, I hadn't realized your character was the same. I'll withdraw mine. I specialized because I wanted to take tatoo focus. Sébastien Loisel |
| SnarkHunter10-04-03, 11:05 PM | Finished the second fight, and in only 4 rounds too! I'm not sure but I think that may be the shortest yet :) |
| Jindl10-04-03, 11:46 PM | Karse is ready to fight in the next round. Use the same tactics as his previous fights, except he will wear the armor. Jindl and the Elder will be sitting out this round. It's too hard to prep a spellcaster without knowing his opponent. I will return Oct 12th. I hope everyone enjoys this week. Mo- I can still mod 1 or 2 fights, as long as I can wait til Sunday Oct 12th to post them. Sloisel - Please do post another character. We welcome new people to the arena. Have a great week everyone. |
| Kukanil10-04-03, 11:55 PM | Someone check over my char for me? I may have missed something. |
| Eschaton10-05-03, 05:10 AM | Kukanil, I looked at Kern, and didn't notice any major errors, though you might want to change "racename traits" to "human traits" . I decided to toss a character of mine into the ring... anyone care to examine it for errors? |
| Moherajikuyx10-05-03, 05:39 AM | Ih ih, well, I think we sould really not care about similarities among characters. Especially with magic users, where 90% of the character's power is determined by spell choice! Anywayz, CU in a week Jindl! About the modding, if we manage to do all the fights before sunday that's better, we'll see. Anyone new would like to try modding an easy fight? |
| Moherajikuyx10-05-03, 05:56 AM | Well no big surprise here, and a charger is easier to manouver than a bard of course... 1- bardic musics that require no concentration may be activated while doing other actions: you shall have done it as the very first act, and Maril would have been equally able to rapid shot. 2- why did you target the horse instead of the - quite more dangerous - rider?!? I wrote to throw the bag at him... I'm growing a thing for moderators who target animals with my characters. |
| Moherajikuyx10-05-03, 06:17 AM | Kukanil, you may find the weapons for war domain under the Spiritual Weapon spell. If you are Neutral, as in your case, you may decide any of the other weapons, the one that best fits your alignment inclination. No free exotic weapon focus, sorry :) Chaos: Battleaxe Evil: Light flail Good: Warhammer Law: Longsword |
| SnarkHunter10-05-03, 09:53 AM | Mo: By my estimation tanglefooting the horse would have been the most surefire way of stopping the charge. If you got the rider and if he had failed his save he would have been glued to the horse not the floor. Since the horse would have continued riding the charge would have continued since the horse provides the motive force, though of course he would have a penalty on the attack. Also all bardic musics take a standard action to activate, but those that require concentration take an additional standard action each round to maintain. |
| Caterane10-05-03, 10:22 AM | ...and since the horse and I have a Touch Ac of 11 and not 10 the bag wouldn`t`ve hit me - or the horse - at all |
| Kukanil10-05-03, 02:14 PM | Fixed my build. Someone check it again? |
| SnarkHunter10-05-03, 02:33 PM | Cat: charging =-2 ac Sloisel, I think you only get +4 hp during a rage not +6. Kukanil, looks fine. My there are a lot of sorcerers these days... |
| Caterane10-05-03, 06:10 PM | Aye. Question: Ebelin didn`t fight Rito, did he? We just finished our D&D session. Our Elven two-weapon-fighting spellsword today got a +2 harmony heartfinding rapier, a +1 keen fortunate rapier and a +1 buffering elven chainmail. My necromancer found a Tongues scroll instead :smirk: |
| Imizael10-05-03, 08:46 PM | Fights posted Sorry that u had to wait so long but i got work in the weekends. Fights i'm running are all similar :( . I think that i shoudn't do it anymore.My english isn't good enought.Also comparing the fight's of other mods I must admit that my ones sucks hard. |
| Caterane10-05-03, 09:21 PM | @Mo: Perhaps this is the wrong moment to mention it but I have to say that I don`t have time to moderate 2 fights. At least, I will still moderate one fight; that goes without saying. @Imizael: Ah, but you did great! I`ve won :angel: |
| SnarkHunter10-05-03, 09:28 PM | If your not enjoying it then don't feel obligated. It would be nice if we had some more folk step up the task of modding though (hint hint, new people). As much as knowledge of the rules and time to spare, focus on details is handy in a mod, makes the fights entertaing to read and write. |
| sloisel10-05-03, 09:40 PM | Originally posted by SnarkHunter Sloisel, I think you only get +4 hp during a rage not +6. Correct. My bad. |
| Tellish_of_Ket10-05-03, 11:07 PM | I'll take a shot at moderating fights. I can do three a week easily. I've been around the boards for quite some time, and am quite familiar with the rules. The only thing i would reccomend is detailed tactics. I see a lot of character builds that have "Moderator use discretion" as tactics. That's not a good thing because i dunno what you really wanna do against certain opponents and situations. The better the tactics, the less problems i see arising. Tellish |
| SnarkHunter10-06-03, 12:26 AM | Slois: well your newest character is...interesting. What on earth is he? Please for this and future characters use a standardized layout for your builds similar to this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=515622#post515622) . If you would rather model after someone else I suggest you emulate Cat's. His character sheets combine functionality and style quite nicely. How on earth did he get natural armor? |
| sloisel10-06-03, 03:37 AM | Apologies, I was tipsy when I posted that guy. He's a kobold druid 2. I'm updating it now. Originally posted by SnarkHunter Slois: well your newest character is...interesting. What on earth is he? Please for this and future characters use a standardized layout for your builds similar to this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=515622#post515622) . If you would rather model after someone else I suggest you emulate Cat's. His character sheets combine functionality and style quite nicely. How on earth did he get natural armor? |
| sloisel10-06-03, 03:43 AM | By the way, the heavy warhorse isn't explicitly listed as an acceptable druid animal companion in the PhB, though "heavy horse" is. Is heavy warhorse acceptable as an animal companion? (It's more powerful than the 1st level companions, and heavy warhorse is a significantly different creature, by MM standards, from the straight heavy horse.) Sebastien Loisel |
| LLMadCow10-06-03, 03:43 AM | SnarkHunter Slois ... What on earth is he? And... How on earth did he get natural armor? Slois must be a Kobold, and he has taken a single Monster Feat. Sooner or later someone was bound to play Kobold. Good luck! Edit: I started my post PRIOR to his follow up posts. I really am a master detective! Honest!:cool: |
| Caterane10-06-03, 06:52 AM | If your not enjoying it then don't feel obligated. Wou wou wou, Snark, on the contrary, this is the one thing I enjoy most in a given week but as semester break has ended I have too much work to attend to (University, homework, 2 Jobs and my friends). I won`t spoil me on the fun of moderating at least once a week, no questions asked. And I`m glad you like my sheet. |
| Moherajikuyx10-06-03, 06:59 AM | OK Cat don't worry! Tellish of Ket, you're immediately recruited: welcome! I'll be glad if you will manage to do 3 fights a week, but we'll start low: it's hard work, time-consuming, and I saw many mods go away after burning themselves with too many fights. Imizael - come on! There's room for improvement, right like in mine ones, but they absolutely don't suk. Tell me if you're sure: I hope you change your mind. sloisel - nope, as you already answered to yourself, warhorses may not be easily found roaming around in the wilderness ;) *edit* I did this week's roster, tell me if there are any discrepancies, errors and so! (agh 1.5 hour of work there) |
| fluiddragon10-06-03, 10:14 AM | I posted a new character Xaver last night. Could someone check him make sure he is legal? -FD |
| Caterane10-06-03, 10:30 AM | @Imizael: Mo`s right. What better an opportunity to improve your knowledge and feeling for the language? @Mo: Your default link to quick-access characters has an error. The slash is to be replaced with the doublecross --> # Look: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=######/ post###### |
| Imizael10-06-03, 10:45 AM | Ok i will try it again.I will pay more attention at details. |
| Caterane10-06-03, 10:50 AM | It is "to details". Ok, sorry, you`re out. KIDDING!!! :angel: |
| Imizael10-06-03, 01:06 PM | Originally posted by Caterane It is "to details". Ok, sorry, you`re out. KIDDING!!! :angel: :D |
| Caterane10-06-03, 01:13 PM | Err, could also be "on details". I`m not sure You see, I`m no native speaker either, but who cares? We even understand Mo :rofl: |
| SnarkHunter10-06-03, 01:28 PM | Okay comparing Jindl's Heavy Warhorse to a Heavy horse there are some pretty big disparities. Heavy Warhorse gets; +1 HD (and BAB, saves), +1 nat armor, and +2 str and con. The big thing of course is that the warhorse does not treat its attacks as secondary, like the Heavy horse does. Effectivly Jindles horse had an extra +7 (5 from hooves not being secondary, +1 bab, +1 str) on all its attacks. Even if the horse had been trained in combat riding, with bonus tricks, it still would not have been a heavy warhorse. Given that I still wouldn't like to see Jindles retired. At this level anyway, some other options are availible. Jindle could get a new companion that would still serve as a mount-a Bison for instance would be a rather impressive replacement. As good as what Jindle has now? Possibly, and at this point I think it acceptable. In other news I will also be heading out of town this week (and away from computer and D&D books) I think I can still manage two fights-especially low level ones-but I must get the tactics ASAP, and no later then Thursday. If I don't have your tactics, I will run the fight without them. Given all that...well Looks like an interesting few weeks ahead! |
| Magagumo10-06-03, 01:32 PM | If I can give you any advice, Imizael, it would be to list the rolls you make (with their descriptors) and the positions of the combatants. If you need a template, Snark and I each use this system in our fights (you could copy a round's listing, and edit it to suit your own fight). I know that using this system has helped me keep track of character locations (esp. when a hawk only has a move speed of 60' and moved over 200' in the first round ;)). The fight between the merfolk (can't spell that name, Mo :P) and Lucient looked good in the mechanics, but it would be nice if you listed where they were standing, hps, duration of spells and the like. I saw that you listed the Will save, but as you had a 7+4 (and Lucient's Will was 6) , I wasn't honestly sure where you got mixed up. As others said, it just takes practice, I highly recommend at looking at other Mods fights for ideas on listing the combat :) Anyways, I'm glad you are giving it another try, as I can only MOd one fight this week (I go home Friday and will not have access to the items necessary for running the fight). I can run it Thursday, so i will need the combatants tactics by then... Finally, Ander and Bruno have been updated, with Lucient Noctern the Risen joining us... ;) Edit: I've noticed many mistakes have been made... and Jindl's horse is a big one. However, Jindl has not won solely because of "Dozen," in fact, I recall a swarm of bats being one of the first killers, with other summons being a strong follow to these swarms. Thusly, I say Jindl adjusts (or replaces) "Dozen" as necessary, and we make a note to check these things next time ;) Considering Jindl's recent tactics, I see no real reason to penalize him (others may disagree, though the mistakes that happened in the past were irreversible b/c of the character, not b/c of the outcomes of the fights themselves). Fly on eagle spellcaster! Fly on :) |
| SnarkHunter10-06-03, 01:42 PM | Hey Alathar-Just checking over the coming combat. Why do you have a chain shirt and Bracers of Armor? Unless your trying to get that as a shield They really don't stack. On the upside you could either enchant your chain shirt or get a ring of Prot+1 and ammy of nat+1. Hmmm need tactics... |
| fluiddragon10-06-03, 02:06 PM | In regards to Magagumo's Monk Named: Lucient Noctern The Feats Weapon Finesse and Weapon Focus Both have BaB pre-reqs of +1 They can't be chosen till level 3 monk, as monks don't get BaB of +1 till 2nd level and 3rd level is the next level they get to choose feats. Is this legal? -FD |
| Magagumo10-06-03, 02:26 PM | hmm.. so they do.. Right, the Risen will take care of that right quick. Ty, fluiddragon |
| Alathar Vierce10-06-03, 02:59 PM | Gah stupid mistake, well I'll take it off and refund the money spent, would it be too late for me to redo equipment or do you want me just to wait till next fights to edit the changes. If so I could have done this evening after I get home from school and in front of the books. |
| SnarkHunter10-06-03, 03:25 PM | Naw it was a silly mistake, and even though we know who will be fighting who the pairings haven't been made yet. Go ahead and change stuff around. |
| LLMadCow10-06-03, 03:29 PM | When a druid has an animal companion, are the creatures hit points supposed to be handeled the same way as PC hit points? I.E. - Should Allister's wolf have 2d8 + Con = 17 or what the book lists as the average 13? Just checking, since the wolf gets to advance as the character does. Edit: Okay, I am all kinds of confused, but here is my plan... I am taking the base stats for the wolf from the MM. The only change I am making is going with Hit Points as a PC does. Now for the fun - Advancement: As per Druid's Animal Companion, Connal gets +2 HD (2d8 + Con) = 31, Good Fort and Ref Saves (+4 to each? On top of what he had for a base?), Poor Will save (+1 on top of his already +1?), Base Attack Bonus as per druid of equal HD level (4 hit dice, = BAB +3? On top of what the MM Has?) I am just making sure, as Connal will be the better melee combatant of the pair. Please give input when you can, but I am progressing by what I can understand, and I am looking for clarity... Also, the wolf now has 4 hit dice, I think, does this mean that he is now considered Large and gets the bonuses and penalties that go along with it? :confused: |
| fluiddragon10-06-03, 04:00 PM | Originally posted by Magagumo hmm.. so they do.. Right, the Risen will take care of that right quick. Ty, fluiddragon We always house rules the prereqs away. Kinda sucked for monks and rogues. -fd |
| LLMadCow10-06-03, 04:33 PM | Okay, I have updated Connal (Allister's Wolf Companion) as best as I could. Would someone please take a look at him, located at the bottom of the entry for Allister, and let me know how I did? Key notes: 1. The only modifier from the MM Wolf entry, in regard to the base creature, is the Hit Points - Connal started at 2d8 + Con = 8 + 5 + Con, as per character Hit Points. 2. Since Allister is a 3rd level druid, I gave Connal the bonuses listed on page 36PHB. - Base Fort and Ref as Druid. - No idea what do do with Skill Points. 3. Since Connal is now a 4HD creature, I made him Large - See page 283MM. I changed his AC, his Attack bonuses, and the damage from his Bite. 4. Since Connal is now 4HD, I gave him his 3HD bonus feat - Improved Natural Attack. I think I did good, but I am looking for some reassurance... :confused: |
| sloisel10-06-03, 04:58 PM | Originally posted by LLMadCow 3. Since Connal is now a 4HD creature, I made him Large - See page 283MM. I changed his AC, his Attack bonuses, and the damage from his Bite. I would be happy if animal companions get enlarged from bonus HDs, but I suspect they don't. It's not part of the listed advantages in the animal companion sidebar for advancing druidic animal companions. Likewise, I don't think a 2HD bonus from the awaken spell will enlarge an animal. Cheers, Sébastien Loisel |
| SnarkHunter10-06-03, 05:44 PM | Animal companions don't get the max first HD. he starts out as a wolf straight from the MM. Then modifiers-like extra HD-are added and change hp, BAB, saves, feats and abilities as normal. This is all mentioned under the tournament rules somewhere. |
| Alathar Vierce10-06-03, 05:54 PM | Ok I should be updated, just someone check the price on armor as the item creation guides are by far a pain. I figured on the breastplate (200 base + 4000 mithril + 1000 enhancement. And another question when advancing a magic weapon/armor do you pay the cost of the new enhancement? or split the difference...Say if next level I wanted to up the breastplate to a +2 bonus, would I pay whole? or the difference between +2 cost and +1 since its already there. |
| Imizael10-06-03, 05:55 PM | about 7+4 that was my mistake but in doesn't matter about Rito's fight - If i were u i will try to shot him down with crossbow - Rito doesn't have spellcraft so he wasn't able to determine how long Fly would last ( 5 hours maybe ? ) Characteres not familiar with spellcasting dont know how long spells last thats why waiting for the effect to end is not proper imo.what do u thing about this ? Try shoot him with crossbow or buy potion of fly.Use blind-fight feat or just wait for invisible attacker till his attack.Its about fighting not hideing. Someone uses resources for potions etc and the enemy is simply hideing ... bad idea imo - I stop marking location couse if i were to do that 40 rounds i will have spend 10 hours ... I always make fight with miniatures , i made all rolls etc and then I'm writing the story - is this a good or bad way ? |
| Moherajikuyx10-06-03, 05:57 PM | Pets' stuff - Snarky's right, and they're though already... Jindl - did the warhorse alone permit any win? Alathar and Snark - if you prefer, you may post me the equipment, and when I say I recieved it from both, post it on the forum, so that the others' is unknown. Equipment is almost as important as the tactics at this point. Alathar, did you ever use the bracers? If so, then you have to give it back used at half price, else it's still new. fluiddragon - hum, would you try to moderate a fight? This week we're low on moderators, looks like. Piwi, I fear, dropped us. SnarkHunter, please don't use the default tactics thursday, that's a bit too harsh for people, consider time zones. Let's see: - Caterane: only 1 fight - Imizael: uff! He's back :D - Jindl: away, right? - SnarkHunter: away from thursday Forgot anything? |
| Moherajikuyx10-06-03, 06:00 PM | Imizael - it depends, some people prefer with the position, I for one don't read them even in the fights involving my pc. If it works best for you, use that way: the miniatures are a perfect way to know the positions! ;) We, less lucky people that have to do this stuff at work, may not use them... :( |
| fluiddragon10-06-03, 06:13 PM | I could moderate 1 fight this week. I would prefer not to moderate divine casters or bards though. I havn't read all the pertaining rules and spells for 3.5 and I don't think I would be familliar enough with the rules to do the divine casters or bards justice. I'm set on the others though. -FD my email is scott at fluiddragon dot com |
| Caterane10-06-03, 06:37 PM | Feel free to give me the more complicated ones, Mo. |
| Alathar Vierce10-06-03, 07:31 PM | Well I just got the bracers for my last fight (like 2 weeks ago lol) against Bonanza, but I forgot to update my ac after that so I sold back as a mistake. |
| Magagumo10-06-03, 10:46 PM | Hmm, well, the bracers of armor really couldn't help him anyways. Mo_ I assume you got my msg, I just didn't see my name on your list so I wanted to make sure you knew I could only do one fight. Feel free to give me one of the more complicated ones, since they all end up taking me awhile anyways ;) Best to leave the low-lvl (and thus hopefully, shorter) ones to people who are aking more than one fight. Lucient the Risen is all set... skills got shot to heck ;) But he works out fairly similarly, and doesn't break the rules :D |
| LLMadCow10-06-03, 10:59 PM | Okay, guys, I need to know - when an animal companion, wolf in this instance, reaches a number of hit dice that would normally bring an animal of it's type up to another size category, does the animal companion get to increase in size? It makes sense. For instance, if a 5th level druid went out and got a new animal companion that happened to be a wolf, the wolf would have 4 HD. A 4 HD wolf is considered Large. So, wouldn't an advancing Animal Companion also grow? Why would a 4 HD wild wolf be larger than a 4 HD Animal Companion wolf? |
| LLMadCow10-06-03, 11:03 PM | For the record, I am willing to run a single fight this week. I would like to give it a shot, but I would like to be able to submit my results to a more experienced moderator for review prior to posting. If someone agrees to this, I would be more than happy to give it a shot... A number of you already have my e-mail address. |
| SnarkHunter10-06-03, 11:56 PM | LL: the concern is that the enlarged advanced wolf would be significantly better compared to its unadvanced pears. Since these are the animals which should be comparable to a druid of that level who has a level 1 they're a useful comparison. For instance take 2 4th level druids. 1 of them as you suggest has a wolf that has been enlarged including the +2 natural armor and +1str and dex from normal progression we find, it has a bite of (+3bab+6str+1focus-1 size=+9) for (1d8+9) points of damage an AC of 17, and a con of 19 for 34hp, and a trip bonus of +10. Compare that to say, the Black bear also availible at 4th level; It has more attacks (2 +6 claws (1d4+4), and+1bite(1d6+2)) but all at a lower attack, for less damage, and without trip, an AC of 13, and 19hp. Clearly the Wolf is significantly better then anything up to the Dire wolf at 7th level which it resembles quite earily hmmm... Basicly I think the wolf was not intended to get that powerful that fast. I had always presumed, and this was how its been seen in the past, that the bonus hit dice were seen like class levels. They increase abilities, give feats and so forth but don't increase size. For your example the wild wolf would start as in the MM (2HD) and then recieve an additional 2 HD from the druid. If you don't agree with that interpretation thats fair. I suggest you make a post about it on the Classes board, or rules perhaps, and see what they have to say. Feel free to link to it if you do. Finally aside from all that welcome to the Modding Gig! I'm sure you'll do fine and though I won't be around to review your fight I'm sure you'll do fine. Once you get your feet wet, as others have said, they do become a lot of fun. |
| sloisel10-07-03, 12:33 AM | Alter self reads: "When the change occurs, your equipment, if any, either remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item)..." Polymorph says "As alter self..." and doesn't mention gear. Wildshape says "As polymorph..." and doesn't mention gear. Enter DMG p.213, "Size and magic items." It says that size doesn't matter, even kind doesn't matter. It further adds that you should only say "it doesn't fit" if there's a good reason. The only magical items which have a size dependence are armor. From this I read that wildshaping into a bear shape lets you keep your amulets, for instance. Magical rings would go because you don't have fingers (although you'd keep them if you were to go ape.) Magical bracers and non-armor (woundrous item) headgear would generally stay. Since mundane items do not match their sizes to yours, if you became too big, nonmagical circlets and such would go, but if you wildshaped into a wolf, which is typically smaller (by body mass) than a person, you'd keep your clothes (!) Anyone who thinks canines aren't "capable of wearing" clothes hasn't taken a stroll in the dog park across the street from my apartment. Is this the interpretation in the core arena? Sébastien Loisel |
| LLMadCow10-07-03, 01:55 AM | Allister and Lothar have both been updated. |
| Irlina10-07-03, 04:35 AM | One rule question. In my fight (last current one, Ailus Strongwine vs. Allister Swiftfoot) my opponent summoned two Hippogriffs from scroll and they were strengthened by the feat augment summoning. So I want to ask whether feats you posses also affect spells you speak from scrolls (like sleep, summoning etc.)? |
| Moherajikuyx10-07-03, 04:38 AM | Eh eh, new modding meat: good! I'm relieved. magagumo - yes sorry my half burnt memory changed your request to being Caterane's sloisel - I think that the MM type matters here: so if you become another humanoid only you may keep stuff. Don't know about monstruous humanoids. There's not an arena interpretation about it yet; in an old arena, with a druid, I got youn stones instead of amulets to be sure. So here are the correct preferences: - magagumo: only 1 fight - Jindl: away - SnarkHunter: away from thursday - fluiddragon, scott at fluiddragon dot com, only one with reviewer - LLMadCow, only one (what's the email?) |
| Moherajikuyx10-07-03, 04:40 AM | Irlina - though one, not clear so open to dm interpretation, but basing on the spell focus requisite and the fact that spell focus doesn't count for scrolls DCs, I would say no. |
| fluiddragon10-07-03, 09:50 AM | I've been going thru the new lvl2 characters studying my competion. I noticed some problems with Octavian Cesar (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1498006#post1498006) posted by barrel_master. Character class sorceror: He has a Great Axe which is a martial weapon. his has +0 1d12-1 20/x3 it should be listed as -5 hit 1d12-1 damage (-4 nonproficent penalty, -1 str penalty) Also under scrolls he has listed several scrolls The price of Scrolls of 1st level spells according to the SRD is 25gp or 16gp (tournament rules) for crafted scrolls. |
| Moherajikuyx10-07-03, 10:03 AM | About crafted stuff, let's begin pricing it right: 16.66 for level ones. |
| fluiddragon10-07-03, 10:05 AM | Are Drow a legal choice for tournament characters? They have a level adjustment of 2. Could they be played as a base drow, with no character class, and take a class level if they win? -FD |
| Magagumo10-07-03, 10:28 AM | [Irlina - though one, not clear so open to dm interpretation, but basing on the spell focus requisite and the fact that spell focus doesn't count for scrolls DCs, I would say no.] *smacks head* Gah!! This is what I get for following player tactics to the word, rather than actually checking the rules for myself... Actually, I originally did run the hippogriffs w/o the Augemented Summoning. The results? One hit, one missed, resulting in Ailus loosing 8 out of 18 hp. Allister goes defensive (as he can't hit Ailus w/o a 19-20). Next round, hippogriffs land, now flanking, and tear Ailus to shreds within the next 2 rounds. Ailus survives (as his AC is also high enough that Ailus could barely hit him). I just deleted the extra stuff when I saw that Augmented Summoning (which I stupidly belived applied ;)... just wait till staves kiddies) would have resulted in his death that 1st round. And there you have it... :embarrass As a reminder to all players!!! LA does not equal ECL. In other words, your Effective Character Level (which must equal 2 to start in this arena) is your Level Adjustement plus your HD. Thusly, unless the creature has a LA of +1 or less, no playing them. (A Drow would end up being an ECL 3, so I'm afraid not. I belive you shoul check a few pages back... not sure which one... as we have a listing of all Core monsters playable in this arena) |
| Moherajikuyx10-07-03, 10:51 AM | There was around, some time ago, the proposal of letting ECL 2 stuff begin with a level of commoner, to be substituted with your chosen class, and I liked it quite. I don't think it's unbalancing at all - good luck with your first fight - and it adds to variety. Any cons that I don't see now? |
| LLMadCow10-07-03, 11:51 AM | I agree that we should allow characters with an ECL of 2 to take a level of commoner and then when they when their first round of combat, swap that out for their first real level. That seems fair. My e-mail: LLMadCow at aol dot com |
| Caterane10-07-03, 12:49 PM | Originally posted by Caterane @all: On the one hand I don`t like that you can`t play ECL+2 Races. After all I miss the drow and the arena would get more colored as monstrous humanoids would join the ranks (as it is in most arenas). On the other hand I don`t like starting at lvl 3 (I would even prefer to have characters start @lvl 1). Now a thought struck me: What about allowing 2 classes or monsters with 2 racial HD but the first level has to be apprentice (as per the rules in DMG)? After getting lvl 3 you add the full class. Or you could be a commoner which will be replaced by a real class @lvl 3. What do you think? Finally. 100 posts later I get an answer :nonono: |
| Magagumo10-07-03, 12:56 PM | Hmm.. commoner, eh? To be replaced with the drow racial HD at 3rd level I suppose? And after that, the sky is the limit ;) And yay for Cat's great idea!! ^_~ |
| LLMadCow10-07-03, 01:11 PM | I still think we need an official list of acceptable races on the front page of the Characters listings. Now if we decide to add ECL +2 creatures, then we need to list a small list that explicity states what races have an ECL +2 and thus start out with a commoner level or apprentice level. |
| fluiddragon10-07-03, 04:20 PM | I would put a list of all acceptale races/monsters. It's rather intimidating trying to wade through 700+ posts to find the info. I would also like clarification on exactly how they should be used, ie: Hit points, BaB etc. The drow for instance in the SRD looks to be a 1st level warrior, though they may not be refering to the npc warrior class. Just slap a level of commoner on then swap out if he makes it to level 3? It would make things more interesting. -FD |
| Magagumo10-07-03, 05:27 PM | Actually, all non-HD races (base races, orcs, drow, etc) use 1 level of warrior (as in the NPC class) |
| fluiddragon10-07-03, 06:16 PM | Question on Potions. Can you have a potion that is not listed in the SRD but is a 1st level spell that effects the caster. ie Potion of Shield or Expiditious Retreat? I don't have the DMG but am relying on the SRD. Thanks FD |
| sloisel10-07-03, 07:58 PM | fluid: I don't think you can do that with potions. Also, ex-barbarians can't rage. Also, that's a nifty scroll organizer you have. where'd you get it? everyone else: My second character, Buttmunch the Ridiculous, joins Trom the Blue in readiness for battle. Please let me know if I've made mistake, my email address is loisel at math.mcgill.ca Sébastien Loisel |
| fluiddragon10-07-03, 08:36 PM | Missed that about ex-barbarians. Have to change back to Chaotic after a few monk levels! I'll fix it thanks for the tip. I knew it was 2 good 2 be true. Scroll organizer is nothing more than a leather pouch with slots to separate the scrolls. I don't think there are any game statistics for it. I think I first saw it in TaB. I figured it'd be ok since there are no game effects just a easy way to carry them. I used it in a game once. Had all of them scrolls with explosive runes = dead thief! DM liked using rogues to steel our stuff for awhile. DM Never actually looked at my equipment list after the 1st time the wizard was pickpocketed! -fd |
| SnarkHunter10-07-03, 10:10 PM | Mo: for the fight thing how about this. It would definitly suck hardcore if I didn't finish the fight and its pretty bad to go in with only standard tactics. What if I'm scheduled to run two fights as normal and any I don't finish I can pass off to another mod, maybe to someone who sucessfully ran one fight? If not then ok. |
| Tellish_of_Ket10-07-03, 11:40 PM | Just a note, i was looking at the moderators lists. I also stated that i can run a fight or two. My email is raymondlendt at hotmail dot com. So, lets see who gets free wins against me tomorrow? lol Tellish |
| Irlina10-08-03, 08:14 AM | Just posted 2nd char. Can someone check both (Aiulus and Duran)? |
| Caterane10-08-03, 08:40 AM | I just checked the total postings list and Mo`s first with about 170 posts. Looks like we are a small community already, after all, we have our regular customers. Now I was asking myself who these other persons are? I checked most of your profiles but couldn`t find any vital informations. Where are you from? How old are you all? What do you do? How do you look like? I found a foto of Sloisel on his homepage and I instantly made the same and linked a picture of me in my profile`s information (under 'homepage') What about you? |
| LLMadCow10-08-03, 12:12 PM | Since no one noticed it the first time I posted it... LLMadCow: LLMadCow at aol dot com Hopefully someone will notice this time around. :cool: |
| Moherajikuyx10-08-03, 12:19 PM | The fights are MAAAAAAAANY!! Magagumo, sorry to give you two: if you don't manage to do the level 3 fight, we'll wait for Jindl. Really sorry, we need more mods! The ones that have a fight modded by Snark: SEND HIM TACTICS ASAP! Snark, if you don't get the tactics, leave them, we'll see who does them. When do you leave? Tellish: sorry wrote it now ;( |
| LLMadCow10-08-03, 12:25 PM | I was looking over the boards and posts and realized that we need to start a fourth thread dedicated to the Core Arena - Board Members. Let the Lords of the Pit post the initial post, so it can be modified. Let all of the members of the Core Arena thread make a post and 'reserve their seat. Then, anytime we want to take a vote on something, the topic will be posted on the first post under Lords of the Pit, and all of the 'seats' will simply list the topic number and then how they vote. This would allow for simple and concise voting on any given issue - such as should we allow ECL +2 with a level of commoner or whatever. When there is something to vote on, post the question, give a wek for voting and then list a start and end date. We all have that much time to cast our vote. We would still debate the merits of such things on this board, but voting would be clean and structured. Votes would usually be yes, no, or abstain. Then when the week was over, Lords of the Pit would put CLOSED at the front of the question and list the results. So, when we tally votes we would just go down the list, look at answer 3, for example, and count up the yes, no, and abstain votes. I think it is a solid plan, since right now we have an impropmtu plan that may be hard to follow and track. I just figured this might make everything easier totrack... :cool: |
| Caterane10-08-03, 12:29 PM | @Mohera: Two things. First I told you that I will only mod 1 fight this week, you remember? You even confirmed this. Second: Why must Ebelin sit out this week? Snark and Magagumo both have 3 characters running. I remember we made a rule that the player with the most characters skips. |
| LLMadCow10-08-03, 12:34 PM | Sent tactics to Snark. Wish me luck... |
| sloisel10-08-03, 01:34 PM | I just realized that my druid has 15 hit points, not 16. I'm fixing it now. I realize changing gear is a big no-no, but what's policy on genuine errors like this? Sébastien Loisel |
| SnarkHunter10-08-03, 02:09 PM | DOn't change them on the sheat just note them here and e-mail the mod about them along with tactics. Cat: Bilo didn't play last weak so thats why he fights...don't remember about the multiple chars rule. |
| sloisel10-08-03, 02:26 PM | to Imizael (vs Octavian) and Tellish (vs Ailus) Cheers, Sébastien Loisel |
| sloisel10-08-03, 02:27 PM | Originally posted by SnarkHunter DOn't change them on the sheat just note them here and e-mail the mod about them along with tactics. Well, too late now, sorry about that. Next time I'll change it in the discussion thread. Sébastien Loisel |
| Moherajikuyx10-08-03, 02:34 PM | Caterane - double sorry. Bilo didn't play so no roll and it becomes Bilo vs. Ebelin. About the double fight - we have way too much fights! Everyone: Please, feel free to do only one fight, possibly the highest level, and to delay the second as much as wanted. This is not to become a hindrance to anyone! Sunday I'll check out the remaining fights, and if needed, we'll let a week slip off. I hope we find volunteers for the remaining fights. Cat, if you check, no one got only one fight, even though some asked for it. I realized that we got to apply some math to find out the max characters. If a every mod runned 2 fights and posted 4 characters, there would be no space for non-moderators! (2 fights = 4 characters) I fear we have to say that, for the future, to have some backup, anyone may post as many characters as 2*the fights he's going to moderate-1: so, 2 fights -> 3 chars, 3 fights -> 5, and so on. Non moderators may have a limit of 1 character. I'm really sorry, but given the numbers we're reaching, this is due! This week is the demonstration that we need some backup: we lose two moderators, and immediately we have to delay a week. I started this week myself: one of mine doesn't fight. |
| Moherajikuyx10-08-03, 02:47 PM | sloisel - your moderator will decide, I hope he already saw the sheet before the changes. Sorry about, of course no one doubts of your word, but if we begin to let this happen, sooner or later someone will change equipment. Did anyone see sloisel's sheet and may testify? OK, I have to say two things to the moderators. 1. If you asked for one fight, and you have two, don't worry. Do the highest level one, then delay as much as you wish the other one. If someone volunteers for running te other one, that will be OK. Else, we'll have to wait till next week. That's sad, but that's the price for being succesful. I'll try to manage this thing better. First time moderators - don't worry! It's quite simple, just follow the SRD as much as you can. The link is http://www.wizards.com/D20/article.asp?x=srd35 I hope to saisfy everyone, but it's hard. Consider that this took me quite some hours today, but I feel well repayed by the readings and the fightings! *edit* New rules for the numbers. From now on, max. of 1 character per participant; moderators may have more, but they have to run at least a fight for 2 characters they have beyond the first, plus 1: 3 chars -> 2 fights, 5->3... |
| Caterane10-08-03, 03:47 PM | @Mohera: I mentioned it thrice over the last few weeks that we have too many characters. I would suggest to concentrate on one character and perhaps have a second one as backup but no more. If I remember correctly my suggestion was to allow for a second character only if the first one is at least 4 levels higher. Combined with your rule this could help us with our problem. I would go even further: Non-moderators --> 1 character only; Moderators --> 1 +1 character per moderated fight Your calculation is based on the fact that every moderator moderates all his fights but it could easily happen that one or two mods won`t be able to moderate in a given week because circumstances prevent it and so we`ll again have a shortage. So we also need backup moderators! Cat, if you check, no one got only one fight, even though some asked for it. Ok, I will run both fights. |
| Galamdring10-08-03, 03:57 PM | Tanya has retired... I have deleted the post in the builds thread. I will not continue playing with her... I just found out today that she was scheduled to fight this weekend. You will have to see about that, and re-arrange the lvl4 pairings... Sorry about that... |
| Magagumo10-08-03, 04:21 PM | Ok.. I would like to ask for everyone to take a deep breath.... First of all, let's not go crazy on deleting all our chars ;) (and yes I am exaggerating for effect). This is simply an unusual week, one in which two Mods are going home after Thursday (ppl, also rem to email your tactics to me by Thursday afternoon if I am Modding your fight), and another one is away for the week. Mo, I think your suggestion of allowing a week to slip by is a good one, let us work it that way. In other words, for those who did not catch this, your fight will be either run this week, or the next one, but we will not be making new pairings until all of them have been run. No fuss, no muss. I will see if I can do 2 tomorrow evening, but I wil probably delay the other till next week... Edit: On second read, I see I only have one fight. Level 5 huh? This should be interesting :D |
| Moherajikuyx10-08-03, 04:23 PM | Cat - you show much more wisdom than me cleric? druid? monk? :D I think that your suggestion is very valid. Yes, I'll drop the stupid Fish next week, which puts me at 3 chars= 1 free +2 fights. Yes, it looks good. Galamdring - thanks God! I'll give up Rito Maya's fight, and moderate the level 4 fight. We have some breath. Snark, I move one of Magagumo's fights to you, you still have two, but Karse uses default tactics, so you shall wait only Imizael's tactics. Maybe we manage to do it this week... |
| Moherajikuyx10-08-03, 04:25 PM | Magagumo - uff! I'm really glad to be surrounded by good willed people. Please wait a bit and do Snark's fights, if he goes away and can't do them, as he announced. Thank you very very much... |
| Moherajikuyx10-08-03, 04:28 PM | BTW, if anyone's using a messaging tool, I'm 168287031 on icq, Moherajikuyx on aim and hotmail, ribellione on yahoo. |
| Caterane10-08-03, 04:58 PM | @Mo: Could you please update the roster (concerning Ebelin vs Bilo) before Snark sends me his tactics? @Snark: You sent me the tactics of moon-moon. Magagumo is the moderator of this fight. If Magagumo agrees I can run it for him because I won`t moderate the lvl 5 fight. |
| Caterane10-08-03, 05:10 PM | Ok, great! I`m honored for being chosen as moderator of the Level 6 fight! :tiphat: Oh, and again: Bruno :rofl: but this time I have to fight him. |
| fluiddragon10-08-03, 06:00 PM | I'll pitch in an do another fight. I still request no divine casters as I haven't had time to absorb the 3.5 changes. Hope this lightens the load a bit! Also if you are looking for SRD's enworld did a contest a month ago for html / print versions of the SRD. To make it more user friendly. I decided to start a 3.5 srd archive site. Much easier to use than the default srd The site is under construction. ( I got 5 web site contracts in the last month 2 e-commerce with 2 more in the next week so I haven't had time to organise it or make it pretty ) the url is http://3.5srd.com -fd |
| Caterane10-08-03, 06:09 PM | - fluiddragon if you want to moderate another fight you can gladly have this one from me: Tomar Vilir, KerlanRayne vs. Allister Swiftfoot, LLMadCow Interested? Then talk to Mohera. |
| fluiddragon10-08-03, 06:24 PM | I'm tring to come up with tactics for my fight and noticed a possible problem on Curunigur (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1455070#post1455070) It has a AC listed as 20 But should be 15 with no buffs 19 with mage armor / shield 23 with both. I didn't see any armor or shields on the equipment list. I just don't want to have to hit AC 20 if I don't have to. :D It looks like I got 2 fights so I'll just mod those 2 -FD |
| LLMadCow10-09-03, 01:19 AM | Okay gang - Here is my issues, and this came up recently.\ Augment Summoning and Summoning from scrolls. I can understand that a spell caster can not metamagic an already prepared spell from a scroll. This raises the effective level of the spell, and the spell level is already set at the time the scroll is made. Hoever, it is agreed that a spell such as protection from elements lets you choose what element at the time of reading, correct? So, why can't my Druid Augment the Summons from a scroll? Augment Summoning is NOT a metamagic feat. It does NOT effect the level of the spell. It merely makes the animals summoned a little beefier. Now, even if I cannot augment the summon from a bought scroll, I should be able to have a scroll that I MADE summon augmented creatures, correct? I need some clarity on this issue prior to establishing what my tactics will be for combat. I say that augment summoning can effect scrolls. Baring that I say that a scroll I made can summon augmented creatures, right? |
| fluiddragon10-09-03, 07:35 AM | I would rule that you cannot use Augment Summoning on a bought scroll. Technically you are not casting it but completeing it. The scroll was made by someone else and even though there is no level increase it cannot be assumed that the creator has the feat. If you created the scroll I would not have a problem granting the effects of the feat. I don't think that they included Augment Summoning in the metamagic feats for 2 reaseons. 1. All the summon spells have a casting time of 1 round. 2. Sorcerors who use metamagic have an extended casting time. So this new feat they made a general feat so sorcerors would not get nerfed. The feat is kinda a metamagic feat in effect but different in that it applies to every spell of a certain type. It is sort of like spell focus in that it effects magic but is not metamagic. I think the nature of a scroll is that the effects are set by the crafter, and changes may only be made if it is in the nature of the spell like endure elements. Not sure how others would rule but thats my take. I couldn't find anything in the SRD either way. -FD |
| Moherajikuyx10-09-03, 08:22 AM | Everyone - sorry about the confusion I made yesterday, I hope all is settled now. fluid - Thanks for accepting the second fight! I see that you have a fight with two lev 1 clerics. I don't have any issue with two moderators exchanging fights if you don't like that. LL - mh, I'm not convinced yet. I find it way more similar to a spell focus than to a metamagic feat, and even though I write a spell I don't get the benefits of spell focus. I'll take care of writing on the roster the moderators' requests next week, so that no one is forgotten. |
| fluiddragon10-09-03, 09:37 AM | I guess the clerics are fine. I have to learn the rules some time right? I'll just take my time on the fights. fd |
| Irlina10-09-03, 10:09 AM | @augument summoning a) I think for sake of simplicity it's easier to have all scrolls equal. Else if would become complicated. b) normally magic scrolls are thought too have only minimum requirements (for example sleep scroll DC 11 :( ), so you can bind- whether you do it yourself or someone else does it- only the absolute necessary magic power into the scroll c) the argument with feats: normal metamagic feats do not apply So I would argue that casting spells from scrolls or any other items uses only the items power. You only complete the spell. And they are made as as simple as possible. So no feats or other boni aplly and only minimum DC. potion of healing? Else lots of other questions arise: What is when you've got healing (good, chaos, war etc.) domain and cast healing from a scroll? You get +1 caster level? What is when you drink a BTW +4 Str and +4 Con is no a little bit ;), exp. when you summon more than 1 ally Another thing: I made a mistake in the fight. Scrolls have 1 hp and AC 9+dex. I should simply shoot the scroll with by bow. So don't have too expensive scrolls next time we meet ;) |
| Moherajikuyx10-09-03, 10:20 AM | Ajax, barrel_master vs. Yarin Pach, KerlanRayne posted! I hope I read the second's tactics right, I found them strange: reducing a fort 10 barbarian?? :mymy: |
| KerlanRayne10-09-03, 10:51 AM | Yo Moh! The fight's not over yet! If you notice, Yarin has the Diehard feat, so he's still in there. I'm not asking you to rerun the fight, just finish it. KerlanRayne |
| Moherajikuyx10-09-03, 11:02 AM | :blush: |
| Madhattr10-09-03, 11:04 AM | I just posted my first character here, I didn't have much time so I haven't written a background yet however I intend to. Also I've been DMing for a few years now and would be willing to run a fight or two. I would however like to wait a week or two so I could watch some play out to see exactly how everyone does things. -madhattr |
| LLMadCow10-09-03, 11:18 AM | Well, there is already presedence for allowing metamagiced scrolls, but the cost of the scroll goes up to reflect the fact that there is a higher caster level. So, in that instance a level 1 spell, metamagiced, may cost as much as a level 2, 3, 4 or higher scroll. If I make my own scroll, I can make it with metamagic. Now to further back my thoughts, we know it is possible to make magic items that mimic feats - Metamagic rods. So, if it is possible to make an item that incorperates a feat into, why can't I ensure that scrolls I make can let me have augment summons with them? HAHAHAHAHA! Okay, assuming WotC is willing to reaply to my e-mail anytime soon... I just called the WotC 800# and asked about two of the questions that have been haunting me recently... 1. Lothar and the improvised club question -- Using an improvised weapon allows the use of ANYTHING as a weapon, so a sundered weapon could be used. A rock could be used. Some shrapnel of a weapons' handle could be used. 2. Allister and Augment Summoning -- Augment summoning CAN augment a summons from a scroll, but not a summons from a wand, staff, magic item, etc. So, summon from scroll or from memory - it can be augmented. Do not worry too much, I won't push the issue until I get a reply from WotC in my e-mail. I will copy and paste the reply to the message boards, and anyone who wants me to forward the reply on to them, can just e-mail me and let me know... |
| Moherajikuyx10-09-03, 11:41 AM | Kerlan, I finished the fight. Diehard is better than I thought! Originally posted by LLMadCow Augment summoning CAN augment a summons from a scroll, but not a summons from a wand, staff, magic item, etc. So, summon from scroll or from memory - it can be augmented. :bigeyes: why scrolls yes and wands etc. not? |
| LLMadCow10-09-03, 11:45 AM | Brian, from the WotC hotline, explained it as - when you cast from a scroll, you are completing the spell, verbal components, but when using a wand, you are simply triggering an effect. |
| Madhattr10-09-03, 04:31 PM | Are we ruling that Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus add to the DC of a scroll you use. Even if you didn't write it? -Madhattr |
| sloisel10-09-03, 05:28 PM | Originally posted by Madhattr Are we ruling that Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus add to the DC of a scroll you use. Even if you didn't write it? -Madhattr This business of some feats applying and some not is a can of worms if you ask me. Sébastien Loisel |
| barrel_master10-09-03, 05:40 PM | If worse comes to worse, I can mod. a fight... although, I can't gurantee that I'll be very good as I don't belive that I have a completely solid grasp of the rules. I'd probably be better for lower level fights. |
| Madhattr10-09-03, 07:08 PM | "a scroll is a spell magically inscribed onto paper or parchement so that it can be used later. A scroll of searing light allows a cleric to cast serating light once, as though she had prepared the spell herself." This quote from page 211 of the DMG Clears up any problem with augment summoning, spell focus and greater spell focus. They all apply normally, even to scrolls you did not scribe yourself. -madhattr |
| fluiddragon10-09-03, 07:28 PM | Cool nice to have something actually spelled out in the rules YAY! -fd |
| Magagumo10-09-03, 08:07 PM | Hate to be a bother but chk this. "Staffs have immense utility because they pack so many capabilities into one item and they use the wielder's ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves aginst their spells " Now, if we extrapolate from this statement, this would mean that scrolls do not use the ability score or relevant feats. I searched through the scroll description, and it doesn't specifically say one way or the other, but this does seem like fairly strong evidence in favor of feats not applying to scrolls. Oh, and Cat, I need your tactics if I'm going to run the 5th level fight tonight. Otherwise, I'll need to wait until next Wednesday or so... |
| Caterane10-09-03, 08:12 PM | Ok, I send them in 5 minutes |
| Caterane10-09-03, 08:17 PM | Tactics sent |
| Madhattr10-09-03, 08:43 PM | Hate to be a bother but chk this. "Staffs have immense utility because they pack so many capabilities into one item and they use the wielder's ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves aginst their spells " They are refering to wands which do not use feats seeing how the staff is the more powerful wand. They are not refering to scrolls. -madhattr |
| LLMadCow10-09-03, 11:03 PM | A copy of the e-mail. I called earlier and spoke to Brian. I was looking for a quick answer, but I also needed to be able to forward this onto some friends, so I am following up with an e-mail. Here it goes.... 1. Can the remains of a sundered weapon be used as an improvised weapon in combat? -Yes. 2. Can augment summoning be used to augment a summon cast from a scroll? -Yes. Also, can augment summoning be crafted into a scroll in similar fashion to making a scroll: Extended Bulls Strength? -No.. it isn't a metamagic feat... so this isn't possible. **************************************** *** Chris Wizards of the Coast - Customer Support Website: <http://www.wizards.com> Game Support Phone: 1-800-324-6496 Monday through Friday, 9 AM - 6 PM PST Corporate Phone: (425) 226-6500 **************************************** *** |
| Magagumo10-10-03, 12:31 AM | *nod* fair enough... I readily admit to have been wrong.. (and will be considering this for use in my game in the future...) |
| sloisel10-10-03, 01:25 AM | I sent my tactics for Buttmunch (and Trom) on Wednesday. However, just now, I received a bounce for one of my emails. What happens if the mod doesn't get my emails? Tellish (raymondlendt(at)hotmail.com) bounced on the second email. The email that bounced wasn't the actual tactics, it was to point out that this post (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1483988#post1483988) says that I can summon more than one critter in a fight. As far as I can tell, the actual tactics email went through. Sébastien Loisel EDIT: Ok, now the actual tactics email has bounced back as well. This is really bad if I'm playing against someone who's competitive, but I'm putting my tactics out in the open, because I can't email Tellish. I think hotmail is having problems right now, because I've had similar problems emailing other people with hotmail accounts, this while sending from various places in Canada and the USA from various ISPs. Tactics are here. (http://www.math.mcgill.ca/loisel/tactics.html) |
| Caterane10-10-03, 05:09 AM | @Magagumo: If Bilo uses Dispel magic, retreat and rebuff accordingly, then proceed as normal or this one If Bilo attacks before I`m fully buffed, retreat and continue buffing or this one Always keep Mirror image up!! Rebuff if it runs out or is discharged! or this one Please stick to the tactics. Fighting unprotected with Bilo having a 7th scroll of scorching ray is suicide |
| Moherajikuyx10-10-03, 05:52 AM | Lothar vs. Imitril posted. |
| Moherajikuyx10-10-03, 06:04 AM | About augmented summoning. From the SRD (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/MagicItemsIV.rtf) This means that staffs are far more potent in the hands of a powerful spellcaster. Because they use the wielder’s ability score to set the save DC for the spell, spells from a staff are often harder to resist than ones from other magic items, which use the minimum ability score required to cast the spell. Not only are aspects of the spell dependant on caster level (range, duration, and so on) potentially higher, but spells from a staff are harder to dispel and have a better chance of overcoming a target’s spell resistance. Note the highlight: it's any magic item, not only wands. So, the customer service practically told us that scrolls' save DCs are the same as staves. This means that customer service are morons. Augmented Summoning does not pump scroll summonings. |
| Magagumo10-10-03, 08:43 AM | Yes Cat, I see those, but let me ffer one other thing.. (though I apologize if the fight was not run according to your exact wishes). Bilo had just shredded the majorty of your defenses, and was very close and aware of your presence (despite you being invisible). If you tried to slip away, he would have been able to hide again, and I know for a fact that he would have forced a confronttation before your buffs were in place (btw, you had one resist scroll left, and that was slotted for used as resist lightning under your emergency tactics). If you examine your emergency tactics, only the Protection from Chaos (2nd spell on list) and Mirror Image (last spell on list) would have given you much protection from the rays. I apologze for misinterpreting the "If I spot him, cast Glitterdust" line, but he honestly was hounding you (and he had difficulty with the Will save himself, which had a fair chance of leaving him blinded). Finally, his crit with the Scorching Ray was pure luck, it happens., and that's the only reason why he dropped you that round. I'm not saying anything was inevitable, but Bilo had the advantagetoward the end of this fight, and Ebelin needed to desperately throw him off, or be slain. Edit: Actually MO, you're both correct it seems. Scrolls use the minimum DC for their level, but the user's Augment Summoning feat still applies. By stating they use the minimum DC, this suggests that the user's Spell Focus does not effect the scrolls. As I always leave this as an option to disgruntled (and perhaps rightly so) players, i can rerun the fight from the point of Ebelin's Glitterdust, and see whee the chips fall. We have two weeks, after all... Get back to me ASAP on this Cat and Snark |
| Moherajikuyx10-10-03, 08:57 AM | I would rather not rerun that fight. I think you made a great job, Maga. |
| Madhattr10-10-03, 09:14 AM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx About augmented summoning. Note the highlight: it's any magic item, not only wands. So, the customer service practically told us that scrolls' save DCs are the same as staves. This means that customer service are morons. Augmented Summoning does not pump scroll summonings. I'm sorry do I have to start getting rude here? It is spelled out in the rules on page 211 in the DMG under the scrolls heading how these things are all effected. If you find something you think may be refering to scrolls so therefore would counteract it. You are wrong. Since it is specfied on page 211 that means they are not refering to scrolls. It does not mean that because they might be refering to scrolls that a direct statement is counteracted. Augmented summoning and Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus apply. About the initial any level based mod such as range and duration is still set by the scrolls. If you have any further confusion feel free to PM me. -madhattr |
| Moherajikuyx10-10-03, 09:26 AM | No, let's be rude only with those who deserve it (the customer service :) ) But I don't understand what you're saying. I quoted the SRD, not the dmg, so I don't know what's at page 211, and even if I had it I still wouldn't know, because different language versions often have page number discrepancies. |
| sloisel10-10-03, 01:54 PM | I'm also suspicious of the interpretation where you get to apply feats to scrolls. What about ability score bonuses to save DCs? I realize the WotC customer support robot said one thing, but here's a thing they said to me once. In 3.0, I wanted to "share spell" to put my familiar in a magic jar. However, the target of "magic jar" is "one creature", and from a reading of the spell it's pretty obvious this "creature" isn't the caster. Of course, "one creature" isn't entirely accurate, because you can cast magic jar and affect a whole bunch of creatures, one at a time. You can also cast magic jar and affect no creatures at all, so one could argue that the caster is "affected." However, by a strict reading of purely the english words on the page and ignoring any sematics we might want to put on them, the caster isn't affected. So, neither of the uses of "share spell" appear to be applicable. The first use is to send both myself and my familiar into the jar. This is for spells that I cast on myself, but as pointed out, I'm not the target of the spell, apparently. The second use of "share spell" is for spells with range of "personal." I would have argued that the "magic jar" entry is incorrect, and its range indeed is personal (much like "eyebite.") However, that's not what it says. So I called WotC customer support and asked him. He looked at all the relevant passages, and here's the conclusion he came up with: 1) The target of Magic Jar is correct, it's one creature. 2) I can share spell to put my familiar into the magic jar. That's the one answer I wasn't expecting. Saying that Magic Jar is correct and I can't share spell on it, or that Magic Jar's "targets" entry is incorrect, and that I can share spell, would both have been consistent. It never occured to me that I would get an inconsistent answer like this. Also, he wasn't able to communicate to me clearly which aspect of "share spell" was applicable -- using it just on the familiar, or using it on myself together with the familiar. What I take from this is that if you have a question like "Do I die if I fall below 0 hit points?" then WotC customer support is very good at helping you. If you've got a question where the books look the least bit inconsistent, you'll get random answers. One thing you're unlikely to get is, "I don't know." Very unfortunate. On another, separate occasion, I asked them if I could gate in a solar or djinn to get wishes. The first reply was "of course not." Upon pressing the guy who emailed me, he apparently checked with a designer, and came back with "well, actually, maybe. But don't do that." Sébastien Loisel |
| Imizael10-10-03, 02:25 PM | Customer service - I got a question about grapple I send question and get negative answers.After 2 weeks my friend send the same question and he get positive answer. I have never send another question to them ... I suggest to put this question at wizards forum or at andy's forum to get clear answers. IMO feat's doesn't applies to scrolls unless it is written (metamagic feats) |
| Caterane10-10-03, 03:28 PM | Originally posted by Magagumo [B]Yes Cat, I see those, but let me ffer one other thing.. (though I apologize if the fight was not run according to your exact wishes). Bilo had just shredded the majorty of your defenses, and was very close and aware of your presence (despite you being invisible). Here`s the first mistake. I am 4th level and not 3rd, and Bilo is 4th level and not 5th. The Dc to resist the Dispel is 11+ and not 10+. That`s a margin of 3 points. So the Resist lightning wouldn`t have been dispelled. If you tried to slip away, he would have been able to hide again, and I know for a fact that he would have forced a confronttation before your buffs were in place (btw, you had one resist scroll left, and that was slotted for used as resist lightning under your emergency tactics). If you examine your emergency tactics, only the Protection from Chaos (2nd spell on list) and Mirror Image (last spell on list) would have given you much protection from the rays. Since the Resist lightning wasn`t dispelled, resist fire was the next one. And combined with Mirror image it was all I needed. The main problem was his Dispel magic and as soon as it is gone I wanted to do the same to him and the tide would`ve turned very quickly. Look, after that I would`ve been buffed with resistance from lightning and fire and that was Bilo`s ONLY way of damaging me. His remaining scorching rays first have to hit and then they do an average of 12 damage which would`ve been all negated by resist fire. Same with Lightning bolt. So... but Bilo had the advantagetoward the end of this fight, and Ebelin needed to desperately throw him off, or be slain ...I don`t think so. Not after casting dispel magic and Ebelin rebuffed. I had full hp! As I always leave this as an option to disgruntled (and perhaps rightly so) players, i can rerun the fight from the point of Ebelin's Glitterdust, and see whee the chips fall. No. Though I would gladly like to rerun the fight I don`t want to steal Bilo`s victory and on top of that you invested your time into the fight. But I offer a compromise: Bilo advances a level and all and Ebelin is considered "didn`t fight" |
| Magagumo10-10-03, 03:46 PM | Ah Cat, note on that resist energy spell: It was a 2nd level scroll, so it was a 3rd level caster. The dispel magic caster check is 5 (5th level scroll, I did not roll during combat, but a 1 didn't come up when i just chked [4]) vs. 11+the spell'caster level. Thusly, Bilo was rolling 1d20+5 to beat 11+3=14. He failed on your invisibility (DC 15 and he rolled a 3), but suceeded on all the others. With your spells all down, that left you with one resist energy, which you stipulated for lightning in your tactics. As for you and rebuffing, he was coming straight for you, Cat, how many buff spells do you think you could get off before his 4 scorching rays started hitting you (yes, there was a 50% miss chance, but odds are still with him based on your buff list). As for the "rerun," I would simply resume the fight at the point where Ebelin cast Glitterdust, instead having him move away and begin casting his buffs again. It's not an extrordinary expenditure of time for me, but it would have to wait till at least next Wednesday evening. Finally, I think both sides of the scroll debate aren't really listening to one another. Assuming WoTC customer service is right, Augment Summoning does work on scrolls cast by you. But, as we all know, the scrolls use their own caster level, as well ast the minimum DC for a spell of their level. Reading into this a bit, they always use the minimum DC, no matter what spell foci you might have as the caster. That is the one major flaw with scrolls, their DCs are quite low. Snark, Im leaving the rerun decision to you, you know I won't mind rerunning that last part, but it's your final call. |
| Caterane10-10-03, 04:44 PM | As for you and rebuffing, he was coming straight for you, Cat, how many buff spells do you think you could get off before his 4 scorching rays started hitting you (yes, there was a 50% miss chance, but odds are still with him based on your buff list). Hm, I have more potions and hitpoints than he has successfully damaging scorching rays. I still don`t think that I was hard-pressed despite the loss of my buff spells. After he has expanded his offensive potential: First, there is still a good chance to blind him. Second, I have a dispel magic too, and third: I`m also a fighter with 6 True strikes. If Snark doesn`t want to resume the fight, I will accept it and hope I meet Bilo again. Perhaps next time I won`t have that INCREDIBLE misfortune. If he agrees to resume the fight and I win, I would still offer that we both advance a level. |
| SnarkHunter10-10-03, 05:32 PM | Cat if your that disturbed at how it turned out then I guess a rerun would be ok. We'll see how things look wednesday. on another note I'm not heading out this weekend so I have plenty of time to run my fights. So if you haven't seen yours up yet, don't worry! I'll get to them. soon :) |
| Caterane10-10-03, 05:48 PM | Thanks Snark, too kind of you but I can`t accept a rerun. It would give me a guilty conscience if I would win. I lost - no matter how - and I don`t want to change this at your expanse. I think I`m just upset because this is the first time Ebelin lost and I had hoped to best Alathar Vierce (4:0) The bitter taste of defeat... :b: @Alathar Vierce: I need your tactics. The later you send them the less time I have to write a worthy story (for a level 6 pairing) |
| SnarkHunter10-10-03, 05:57 PM | Yeah I can understand that. Well if Moon-moon has his way mayhaps you can still best Alathars record :D. Btw: Karse, Aris fight posted. |
| Caterane10-10-03, 06:10 PM | No problem, Snark. Just exchange Bilo`s victory for Moon-Moon`s :D |
| SnarkHunter10-10-03, 06:58 PM | Hmm, lets not go down that route eh? Anyway Rizzen vs. Slefwee is up too! I'm on a role tonight... |
| Moherajikuyx10-10-03, 07:12 PM | Originally posted by Magagumo Finally, I think both sides of the scroll debate aren't really listening to one another. Assuming WoTC customer service is right, No, this is wrong, me and LLMadCow had a long and friendly discussion about it by messenger, followed by some emails. We didn't reach an agreement yet, but I'm positive we're going to :) The assumption that customer service is right is most times, at least, an hazard. |
| Moherajikuyx10-10-03, 07:15 PM | And about the rerun, please listen at my major experience: reruns always complicate things. Don't do it. Talk about the thing and reach an agreement about what had to be done: this will be remembered and useful; but don't actually rerun. |
| Moherajikuyx10-10-03, 07:25 PM | Predictably of course an unnecessarily complex and horrifying event befalls the young and spunky intern Great work Snark! :rofl: the unknown violence is almost more disturbing in our ill minds... The second most ridicolous combatant is seriously considering retire. Sorcerers aren't well suited for the arena, I found. |
| Magagumo10-11-03, 12:13 AM | Gotcha Mo. I apologize for the errors in the fight, and hope that I will grow from each one I run, one day achieving the nirvana of fights, where both players state that they could not have done better if they ran it themselves ^_^ Till then, on with da show! Did someone say "cents"-less violence? What's the point if you can't make some money off it, eh? Eh?! Bah, you just wouldn't understand ^_~. Anyways, I state that despite the senseless of of Snark's latest fight, no one's fights are more lacking in sanity or contain more random bloodshed, than my own :D. Ah, shaved dwarven women. Do you think Rizzen and MacMillan are in a happier place, somewhere, Snark? I'd like to think so... ^_^ |
| sloisel10-11-03, 01:35 AM | If the character limit is modified, those of us who have too little spare time to volunteer for moderating but already have two characters, should we retire one of them? I'd love to see what happens to Buttmunch, but if I have to choose, I'll go with the less interesting Trom orc dude. Sébastien Loisel |
| Moherajikuyx10-11-03, 04:14 AM | Oh, well, no I think that would be too harsh. If there aren't too many I don't think it will be necessary. |
| Caterane10-11-03, 04:39 AM | @Mo: Remember, we skip a week because of that and some moderators (myself included) got two fights instead of one, as requested. That might not work every week. |
| Tellish_of_Ket10-11-03, 05:11 AM | No, tactics didn't bounce. I recieved them. It just got caught in my junk mail folder. Both tactics are recieved for my fighters and i'm gonna run it tonight. Sorry for the confusion and delay, but work had me outa town since Tuesday. Glad to be back and looks like it's business as usual. Tellish |
| Moherajikuyx10-11-03, 07:22 AM | Yah, you're right Cat. Well, let's see the numbers, if necessary we'll do that, before next pairings. |
| Tellish_of_Ket10-11-03, 08:01 AM | Buttmunch VS Airus is posted. I noticed an error that i made. I forgot to change the second SNA-wolf's position from the cut/paste of the previous SNA-wolf. But i'm sure you can figure that one out for yourselves. Just a note i'd like to say about moderating my first fight. It was fun, and i didn't know how it would turn out as you'll see at the beginning of round 5. I really thought the tide had turned there. Let's just say, if i was a spectator i would have lost money on this match-up. Congrats to both opponents for a fight well fought. Tellish. |
| Caterane10-11-03, 10:48 AM | That was good, Tellish. I hope you continue moderating! |
| Madhattr10-11-03, 11:32 AM | Assuming WoTC customer service is right, Please I hope no one on the character optimization boards is stupid enough to think about asking customer service. Their track record is so horrible it's pointless even debating. The only sources besides the Core books that might be considered would be sage rulings, and even those are debatable. If you ask around you'll find many many people have gotten contradictory answers from customer service. -madhattr |
| LLMadCow10-11-03, 12:25 PM | Okay guys, I have received tactics from all of my players. I will be running my primary fight on Sunday night, due to working all weekend, and my second fight will hopefully be on Tuesday afternoon. I will be e-mailing Allisters tactics sunday night. I need a little extra time. |
| LLMadCow10-11-03, 12:37 PM | This is in regard to the hotly debated issue of augment Summoning and scrolls... DMG p211: "A scroll is a spell magically inscribed onto paper or parchment so that it can be used later. A scroll of searing light allows a cleric to cast searing light once, as though she had prepared the spell herself, except that any level based effects -- such as range and damage [And DC, which happens to be based on level]-- are based on the level of the scroll's creator, not the users caster level ." DMG, p237 & SRD : "Using a scroll is basically like casting a spell." DMG, p 243 & SRD : "Staffs use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a staff is usually a standard action that doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity." DMG, p245 & SRD: "Wands use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a wand is usually a standard action that doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity." We need to recognize the difference between CASTING A SPELL and SPELL TRIGGER ACTIVATION. It has been addressed that all level based effects are set by the scriber of the scroll. So, Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus, Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration, would have zero impact on the spell. Despite all this, Augment Summoning IS NOT a level based affect. DC is level based, so modifying it is also level based. Just my understanding of everything. Metamagics also cannot be applied to a scroll, unless imbued by the creator, since that impacts level. At this point, I just need a concensus on one aspect, so I can move on with my character - Either statement A or Statement B is true: Statement A: A spell caster who has Augment Summoning is allowed to use Augment Summoning to impact a creature summoned from scroll. or Statement B: A spell caster who has Augment Summoning is allowed to Scribe a scroll that has been modified to include Augment Summoning into the scroll, so that when the spell is completed from the scroll, the summoned creature(s) would be augmented as per the feat. So long as everyone agrees that ONE of the statements is true, it does not matter which one right now, I can post my PCs actions for combat. |
| sloisel10-11-03, 01:10 PM | Level 3 kobold, you'd better all watch out. ;-) Tellish, here's some answers to your questions. 1) The wolf barding can be found in the PHB in two different places. On page123, chapter 7, sidebar "Armor for unusual creatures." "Armor and shields for unusually big creatures, unusually little creatures, and nonhumanoid creatures have different costs and weights [...] Refer to the appropriate line on the table below and apply the multipliers to cost and weight for the armor type in question." This is the rule you'd use if you wanted to put barding on very weird creatures like dragons, but also horses. The armor for a medium size nonhumanoid creature is 2x cost and 1x weight. The rule is repeated in a simplified way on table 7-8 Goods and Services, under Mounts and Related Gear. Barding for a Medium creature (which a wolf is) is 2x cost and 1x weight. 2) The only rule that I know of about mount sizes is that a mount has to be one size larger than you if you want to ride it. If anyone can be more precise, please help me. Also, I have a question. I think I was made to roll an handle animal check to order my SNA wolf to attack -- but it says in SNA that the summoned thing attacks your enemies to the best of its abilities. As a clarification for the future, do I need to make a handle animal checks? If so, I'll increase it more than it is. Good fight! Sébastien Loisel |
| sloisel10-11-03, 03:06 PM | Originally posted by LLMadCow (quoting the DMG) [...] except that any level based effects -- such as range and damage [And DC, which happens to be based on level] -- are based on the level of the scroll's creator, not the users caster level. This sentence is about caster levels, not spell levels. DC isn't based on caster level, it's based on spell level. In fact, for a scroll, the save DC isn't based AT ALL on the scroll's creator, so if you replace "level" with "spell level" in the above phrase, it is absolutely false. According to the passage below, the save DC of a scroll is basically 10+1.5 x spell level, rounded down. DMG 214: "For a saving throw against a spell [...] the DC is 10 + the level of the spell or effect + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell. [...] Staffs are an exception to the rule." So, caster level isn't the only thing that's fixed at scroll creation time, and feats such as Spell Focus probably do not apply. I don't think spell penetration applies either. I'm tempted to think, because of this, that augment summoning doesn't apply. Don't get me wrong, I wish it did, I'm planning to play a druid (human, not kobold) in a game soon, and I will definetly be using augment summoning. Sébastien Loisel |
| SnarkHunter10-11-03, 05:19 PM | Rules for mounts are pretty open ended, A mount has to be at least 1 size larger then the rider, and willing and able to be mounted. A Hill giant might be willing, but unable (it being bipedal and all). Likewise a Tiger might be able, but unwilling. So its open to Dm interpretation, and without a doubt there has been a long history of creatures riding wolfs (or Wargs, or whatever) in fantasy lit. So, go young kobold, go and ride free. For the summoning thing and what applies to spells I think looking at the language of the feats might be helpful. (emphasis mine) AUGMENT SUMMONING [GENERAL] Prerequisite: Spell Focus (conjuration). Benefit: Each creature you conjure with any summon spell gains a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength and Constitution for the duration of the spell that summoned it. SPELL PENETRATION [GENERAL] Benefit: You get a +2 bonus on caster level checks (1d20 + caster level) made to overcome a creature’s spell resistance. Determine Effect: A spell successfully activated from a scroll works exactly like a spell prepared and cast the normal way. Assume the scroll spell’s caster level is always the minimum level required to cast the spell for the character who scribed the scroll (usually twice the spell’s level, minus 1), unless the caster specifically desires otherwise. Feats like Augment summoning, spell focus, Spell penetration and other general feats related to spells affect the way a spell functions when it is cast, not the way they are prepared. Furthermore a spell completion device like a scroll acts like it has been cast by the activator, not the creator, so any general feat like Augment summoning, Spell penetration, and spell focus that the activator has, would apply to a scroll he activates. I've avoided chiming in on this for a while-since I really didn't know what the way to go was-but I think this is the correct interpretation. Further I don't think this is terribly unbalancing, scrolls, even ones you scribe yourself, are pretty expensive, and they still won't have the best saving throws. Eventually Staves will still be the way to go. |
| Moherajikuyx10-11-03, 06:10 PM | Sorry but we can't accept quotations from examples of the dmg as rules. The sentences that aren't in the SRD too, are to be interpreted as clarification (which often obscure). And let's not use logics: let's only use what's written. The only official, clear rule that may be found in the SRD about save DCs for scrolls, was reported a lot of times. It says that scroll spell DCs are set at the moment of creation, and are the addition of 10 with: - spell level, decided by the creator (default is the minimum spell level) - stat bonus needed to cast it at that spell level. And nothing else. To be clearer, the staffs' description also says that staffs are the only magic items that permit the user to use his stats and relevant feats for determining DCs. So there's no way that (G)SF can be used while casting from scroll, as it is clearly written in the SRD that it is used only with staffs. This is clearly stated in the rules!!! What are we talking about? AS not SF! Given that, I think that AS is so similar to (G)SF to have to be considered in the same mechanics. This is the only unofficial part of the issue. So: (G)SF and AS do not work with scrolls. I guess it's the same with SP, but let's solve this issue first. |
| sloisel10-11-03, 06:10 PM | Can someone point me to the rules for selling stuff? It'd be worth it to put them up on the front page with the other rules. Also, I'm guessing we don't want people to start generating infinite cash, so it should be specified that any reselling is based on whatever price you paid for the item, and not for any value-added you may have put on top. For instance, do you want people to make scrolls and sell them at full price? How about buying weird mounts, training them, and cashing in for the "training fee" which is often around 1500GP in the MM. Speaking of which, if I want to buy a griffin, do I need to shell out the full 7000GP for a young, or can I pay the 3500GP for an egg? The main thing I want to know is whether I can stock up on scrolls, not use them, and get full cash back later if they were never used. I also want to know if it's worth it to buy wands -- if a wand suddenly drops in value by half once you've used a charge, you may be better off with a few scrolls if you don't want to pay more than you absolutely need to for the spell. It also says in the DMG that wands are worth proportionally less if they are not fully charged (DMG 214, under "Charges, Doses and Multiple Uses.") Hence, for instance, a wand of cure light wounds with 1 charge is worth 15GP. So is everyone going to start buying wands with 1 charge instead of scrolls? The market price of a wand (according to formula in PHB and scaling per charge as per DMG) is caster level x spell level x 15 GP per charge. Of course, by the book you can't craft a 1 charge wand, so you wouldn't be able to pay 2/3 of that price by crafting your own, you'd have to buy your 1 charge wands on the market at full market price. You'll also still be buying scrolls for those high level spells (spell levels 5 and higher.) Also, we are using the "Adding new abilities" rule (DMG 288), right? So if I have a +1 longsword, to get a +2 longsword I just pay 6000GP to get the sword improved, without having to sell the +1 sword at a loss. In particular, MW items need not be resold, one only needs to pay for the magical upgrade, and +2 bracers of armor can be upgraded to +3 bracers of armor again by paying the difference. Correct? Sébastien Loisel |
| Madhattr10-11-03, 07:17 PM | Ok Guys this is getting very very silly. LLmadcow you just said that because spell focus and greater spell focus are level based they do not affect scrolls. Now Let's just consider that a second....Ok that's enough we notice there is nothing level based having to do with those things. There is nothing level based at all about augment summoning spell focus or greater spell focus. What is confusing you is that the in game rules for spell DC's are based off the level of the spell so they are partially level based. At least that is my assumption of what might be confusing you. Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus and Augment summoning all effect scrolls normally. If you are confused about this please PM instead of crowding up this board and i'll explain it. |
| sloisel10-11-03, 07:18 PM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket Buttmunch VS Airus is posted. By the way, thank you, and good job. Sébastien Loisel |
| sloisel10-11-03, 07:24 PM | Originally posted by Madhattr Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus and Augment summoning all effect scrolls normally. If you are confused about this please PM instead of crowding up this board and i'll explain it. As you may have noticed from Moherajikuyx's posts and my posts, this is by no means the concensus. In fact, SF and GSF are particularly unlikely to affect scroll save DCs, I would say (just reading how to calculate save DCs in DMG 214.) Sébastien Loisel |
| SnarkHunter10-11-03, 09:17 PM | Anywho as has been said this is not the thread to discuss this. PM are fine but assuming multiple people want to get in on the discussion, there's a post on the rules board here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=113446). Now then, to radicaly shift the topic, who else has fights to run? Mine are all done, but I've got nothing else to do so if someone wants to send me another-I'll do it. I'm just that bored...;) |
| Tellish_of_Ket10-12-03, 03:12 AM | Originally posted by sloisel Level 3 kobold, you'd better all watch out. ;-) Tellish, here's some answers to your questions. 1) The wolf barding can be found in the PHB in two different places. On page123, chapter 7, sidebar "Armor for unusual creatures." "Armor and shields for unusually big creatures, unusually little creatures, and nonhumanoid creatures have different costs and weights [...] Refer to the appropriate line on the table below and apply the multipliers to cost and weight for the armor type in question." This is the rule you'd use if you wanted to put barding on very weird creatures like dragons, but also horses. The armor for a medium size nonhumanoid creature is 2x cost and 1x weight. The rule is repeated in a simplified way on table 7-8 Goods and Services, under Mounts and Related Gear. Barding for a Medium creature (which a wolf is) is 2x cost and 1x weight. 2) The only rule that I know of about mount sizes is that a mount has to be one size larger than you if you want to ride it. If anyone can be more precise, please help me. Sébastien Loisel Yes, i'm aware of that. I don't believe it was me that asked the question, it was Airus. Tellish |
| Moherajikuyx10-12-03, 03:37 AM | Sloisel, till now we sold used stuff for half the price. We let once an exception because it was an obvious error. I guess that if someone wants, he might cash up selling trained mounts, in which case I'll post a new award, the herder award, to the one who sells most mounts.... Of course, one may sell a mount only after at least a fight. |
| sloisel10-12-03, 04:03 AM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Sloisel, till now we sold used stuff for half the price. We let once an exception because it was an obvious error. Just to be clear. If I buy it, it's "used" (resells at half price) right away regardless what I do thereafter? Or do I need to bring it into the arena and thwack someone upside the head with it before it becomes "used?" And Tellish, ok, sorry, I hadn't realized that was Airus's question. Sébastien Loisel |
| SnarkHunter10-12-03, 10:18 AM | My assumption was that buying items in the arena was much like buying a car. As soon as you drive it off the lot it looses half its value. In this case of course, driving it off the lot means entering the arena to fight. So any scrolls, armor, shields whatever can only be sold for half the price you paid for them becuase of all the dust, ash, and flecks of blood that have accumulated on them prior to the fight. Before the fight (and the pairings of course) you can still 'refund' the items for full price. After sleeping on it for instance, I've decided to remove most of Bilo's new duds. Does that seem fair/make sense? |
| Moherajikuyx10-13-03, 06:02 AM | Yeah, that's what I do. |
| Caterane10-13-03, 06:22 AM | Sorry about the delay of my 2 fights but as I said: it`s a busy week. I`ll try to run the Lvl 6 fight tomorow though. |
| Irlina10-13-03, 07:16 AM | @Telish thx for moderating! (although I lost 2nd time against druids because of their f***ing summonin... :( ) Only one thing: use the right name for characters (Ailus, no "r") next time ;) |
| Jindl10-13-03, 01:01 PM | Hello ALL !! I'm happy to be back, and am trying to sort through all of the posts (6 pages while I was gone ?!?) I'll try to post some of my initial responses: 1. Ooops!! Sorry about the heavy warhorse thing. Don't know how I missed that. But rest assured "Dozen" will be reduced in stature to the advanced heavy horse that he should be. He will however, still retain all his training as Jindl's handle animal skill is more than enough to train him. 2. I like the idea of limiting characters to 1 + # of fights you mod. That is a great idea as we are getting more and more new people everyday (and I welcome you all.) If somehow you have more characters than you should, then you may take your extra characters and put them on a disabled list, ie. you may have only your allowed # of characters "active" at any one time. 3. Regarding LA +2 and such, I spent considerable time creating a list of all allowed races based on the ECL 2 rule. Please add this list (its like 9 pages back on this thread) to the builds thread as part of the rules. We have enough variation. Lets not expand on this list at this time. Levels of commoner are still levels after all. 4. Cat - I feel your pain about Ebelin's loss. But I would like to remind you that Jindl's first loss came as a result of some mistakes and was not rerun. I still think the arena works better with no reruns. Just my opinion though. 5. Snark made a great post about the augment summonings on scrolls. My take on this is the same. A.S. works on any creatures you conjure (ie. cast a spell from the conjuration school of magic). Since completing a scroll is exactly the same as casting the spell (except for level dependent and ability score dependent factors), then A.S. should work on scrolls. I would extend this to staves, since their description says to use the wielder's relevent abilities. I would also apply this to S.F. and G.S.F as well as S.P. and G.S.P. as these feats also work on spells you cast and are not level or ability score dependent effects. Hey this is balanced because scrolls are expensive (and as someone pointed out, very fragile). So if a druid wants to spend 2 feats to get augment summoning, let it work for his scrolls too. If you're worried about summoned creatures, drink a potion of protection from alignment (it protects from any natural attack from a summoned monster, regardless of alignment). 6. On companions growing in size. They don't. Bonus HD do not affect size, treat them as class levels for what they do affect. Once again, I agree with Snark's earlier post. I'll have to reread the last 5 pages to see if I missed anything. And I am looking forward to reading the fights! Feel free to email me any disputes, etc. about my above 6 statements. Thanks and its good to be back! -Jindl (recently of the Carribbean !!) |
| Moherajikuyx10-13-03, 01:35 PM | Argh! How is it possible?!? It's clearly written what applies to save DCs. It's only spell level and minimum needed ability scor bonus. And nothing else! Please let's refrain from using house rules, for as much logical they look! The only rules allowed are the ones stated in the SRD+DMG; the rest is descriptive text. So, casting a spell from a scroll is not the same as from memory!!! I hope Andy will reply in its sage forum, to have an official answer about this. That's hard though, he seldom replies. |
| Tellish_of_Ket10-13-03, 03:43 PM | @Buttmuch vs Ailus Ya, i was trying to avoid any spoilers when posting about the fights, but since the cat is out of the bag.... :P Ailus may have lost to summoned pets, but it really was a couple of lucky hits. If i was a betting man i'd have lost the farm on this one. I really thought you were gonna smoke Buttmunch in this fight. No offense to Buttmunch either. I didn't think the summons were gonna have any real impact on the fight because they weren't augmented and you have a pretty decent AC. But sometimes the dice just don't go the way ya thought. Good luck in your next fight. Tellish |
| Jindl10-13-03, 04:41 PM | The fights were all interesting and well written; I enjoyed reading them. I've noticed that several fights are not yet done, I am happy to handle any that remain, just forward tactics to me and I'll take care of them (if I can get them done in time, we might be able to have new pairings this week...) Jindl has been corrected for Dozen the Heavy Horse, Karse has been updated after his last fight, and the Elder is ready to re-enter the arena. @ Mo - I see you're point of view on the augment summoning issue. Either way is fine with me because I don't like the idea of scrolls deciding the match (which happens a lot at these lower levels.) Perhaps we should institue LLMadCow's idea about the separate thread to list players and allow votes, I think its a good idea and a decent way to settle these sorts of disputes (especially when the rules are fuzzy and WotC has no good answers for us.) These votes are not to create house rules, but to give a uniform guideline to the mods for certain rule adjucations when running the fights. What do you guys think? |
| SnarkHunter10-13-03, 04:46 PM | I think we should expect arguments like this to come up again, so a thread dedicated to putting everyones view down seems good. We could handle it like fights too. You have X number of days after the issue has been posted to edit a response in and after X day all the votes are tallied on the first post. In fact if we could institute this before the next round of fights? That would be super. |
| sloisel10-13-03, 05:57 PM | Originally posted by Jindl I've noticed that several fights are not yet done, I am happy to handle any that remain, just forward tactics to me and I'll take care of them (if I can get them done in time, we might be able to have new pairings this week...) Right now (Monday night) I count 7 of 14 fights completed. Not looking good for another round this Wednesday! I haven't heard from Imizael, and I don't know what barrel_master's email is, but I'll send you my tactics, just in case. I doubt barrel_master's following this little chat we're having very carefully, so it's likely he won't send you his tactics, so I'm guessing we're just going to have to wait a bit more. Maybe someone else will send you their tactics and we can make some progress. Also, I noticed that some of the coordination is becoming unwieldy. Some of it could be automated. For instance: 1) Once the list of participants is finalized, the character sheets could be "frozen" and archived somewhere, to avoid problems (like when I accidentally modified my hit points on Wednesday morning because of an error.) 2) Instead of tactics being sent to moderators, tactics could be sent to a central place. On Friday, all the tactics would also be "frozen" and published on a web site. The prologue to the fight (character sheets + tactics) would essentially be generated, and moderators would just cut and paste them into their fight post, and make corrections as necessary. 3) Given the list of participants on Wednesday with their frozen character sheets, and whatever pairing constraints we want (he didn't fight last week, so let him fight this week, etc...) pairings could be automatically generated. Assigning moderators can also be automated to any degree we desire, from not at all, up to fully automated including moderator preferences. 4) All of this could be done with web interfaces. Advantages: we avoid some possible human errors, and we can rearrange matches more easily without coordinating with everyone if a moderator dies or something. I can arrange for all that to happen if anyone's interested. I run a stable server and I can code all the php (or c++) for it. Also, Jindl, I think you might have forgotten a +1 to your horse's attack bonus. BAB +3, str +4, secondary weapon -5 is +2, not +1. [EDIT] oh wait, size -1 nevermind. Sébastien Loisel |
| Kukanil10-13-03, 06:12 PM | What should we do if Liquid_Dragon hasnt posted his fights by tommorw? |
| SnarkHunter10-13-03, 06:41 PM | kuk: I think we had pretty much accepted that the next round was going to be delayed till next week.... It would take something pretty extraordinary (i.e. all 7 fights finished today and tomorrow) for us to move to the next round this week. Sloisel: I think that's a great idea, but it does sound bery time consuming (for you not us!). I'd certainly like a little more automation in these, since I love everything that saves me effort. It would probably take a week or two to edit out bugs though. Of course we could test it by uploading old tactics and fights. There would have to be safeguards too, nothing complicated just being sure not to post tactics until both players have sent them. Also players often want to modify tactics before the fight is posted...hmm, maybe have a countdown till when tactics are posted? I really know nothing about programing! Just tossing ideas out there ;). |
| barrel_master10-13-03, 08:20 PM | I am reading this sloisel... Jindl would you mind running our fight? If not I'll email my tactics to you. |
| sloisel10-13-03, 09:32 PM | Originally posted by barrel_master I am reading this sloisel... Jindl would you mind running our fight? If not I'll email my tactics to you. I think that would be fantastic. Sébastien Loisel |
| sloisel10-13-03, 09:37 PM | Originally posted by SnarkHunter Sloisel: I think that's a great idea, but it does sound bery time consuming (for you not us!). I'd certainly like a little more automation in these, since I love everything that saves me effort. It would probably take a week or two to edit out bugs though. Of course we could test it by uploading old tactics and fights. There would have to be safeguards too, nothing complicated just being sure not to post tactics until both players have sent them. Also players often want to modify tactics before the fight is posted...hmm, maybe have a countdown till when tactics are posted? I really know nothing about programing! Just tossing ideas out there ;). I've actually got a prototype of such a system ready. I'm not willing to post the url on the board yet, because while I'm writing it, it may be a security hazard to my server. However, I will share the url with anyone who sends me an email. (loisel at math.mcgill.ca) So far it lets you create accounts and insert characters into a list. I'm about to add something so you can add tactics and character sheets. Later I'll add an interface for freezing character sheets and tactics. As soon as all the functionality is in, I'll post the URL here. Sébastien Loisel |
| Jindl10-13-03, 10:03 PM | Barrel_master, Send the tactics, I'll run the fight tomorrow. Assuming Imizael doesn't mind, of course. Imizael, if you do want to run the fight, please post here (or email me...). -Jindl |
| barrel_master10-14-03, 12:10 AM | Jindl, okay sent. |
| sloisel10-14-03, 03:34 AM | Ok, the prototype arena software is done. You can make accounts, characters, tactics. Some accounts get to be admins. Those accounts have the ability to "freeze" the arena (which is my terminology for what happens on Wednesdays) and "unfreeze" it as well (which happens on Fridays.) You can edit your character sheet at all times, but when a freeze happens, your currrent character sheet is saved, and that's the one that'll be used in the fight. When the unfreeze happens, your tactic is also made public. The admin business is just so it doesn't completely get out of control with funny guys messing around with our data. Whoever has been doing the pairings and stuff, just email me (loisel at math.mcgill.ca) and I'll promote whatever account you create to admin. The URL is http://slavy.dyndns.org/arena/. And since I am not a prick (hint, hint) you don't need to enter an email address to create an account. NO CONFIRMATION STEP!!! WAHOO! who'd a thunk it? It's like a technology from the future, man. Also, for editing character sheets, right now you have to write html. The allowed tags are <a><b><i><u><tt><pre><table><tr><td><font><br><p>. If you don't know how html works, just ignore what I just said, it's pretty much the same as this vB something board, except that the vB codes aren't the same. (Note: newlines automatically get converted to <br>'s, much like vB.) Let me know what you think. Sébastien Loisel |
| Moherajikuyx10-14-03, 05:45 AM | Sloisel, it's really a good work, but there are some disadvantages in leaving the boards. I'm thinking about it. The main disadvantages I find are: 1- No assurance about stability (well, the boards are not perfect, but quite good) 2- No assurance about continuity: what if you get bored? It happens. I created the pitlords login exactly for this: if I get bored, others know the password already. *edit* I did the votes thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=114957), and edited the rules in the gladiators'. Any comment? Please, everyone, post there exactly once. |
| fluiddragon10-14-03, 07:43 AM | I will post my fights tonight. I only got tactics for 2 of the 4 chracters, so I will use the default tactics. I had a crazy weekend. Sorry about the delay. -FD |
| sloisel10-14-03, 11:42 AM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Sloisel, it's really a good work, but there are some disadvantages in leaving the boards. I'm thinking about it. The main disadvantages I find are: 1- No assurance about stability (well, the boards are not perfect, but quite good) 2- No assurance about continuity: what if you get bored? It happens. I created the pitlords login exactly for this: if I get bored, others know the password already. No, we can't leave the boards. First off, there won't be any way of posting fights, because I don't believe there's anything to be gained from that. Second, I'm not adding any forums to my web site just so we can talk about rules and fights. Therefore, we can not leave the boards. The main thing I want to achieve is a better ability to rearrange fights and I want to avoid glitches where people modify character sheets when they're not allowed. In other words, all this web site would host is character sheets, tactics and pairings. Lastly, to assuage your fears of my locking you into something, I've set up nightly backups of all the character sheets (but not the private tactics, for obvious reasons.) You can get the one I generated just now at this address: http://slavy.dyndns.org/arena/arena.tar.gz You could copy this over every day, and if I ever try to pull any funny tricks, you'll have last night's version of all the character sheets. Not so bad, no? If you don't like it, fine, I'll just destroy the whole thing. Also, I've added Moh as an admin, because I'm pretty sure you're one of the guys who actually runs this, but I don't know where anybody else stands. Moh and snark both are able to create new admins, so we should be able to get this going. Later, I'll make the front page of the arena thing editable by admins so that we can proclaim better information on it. Sébastien Loisel |
| Moherajikuyx10-14-03, 11:49 AM | I really appreciate your involvement, and your precious and beautiful work, but I have a bad feeling about going out of the threads, even partially. Another thing is that by keeping the thing on the boards, we keep it bumped and so raise our visibility to others in the forum. I guess we might post our first poll about this? I'll write it on the new polls thread. If people like the idea, I'll stop worrying :) |
| Moherajikuyx10-14-03, 11:58 AM | I was thinking about wizards and sorcerer... Looks like sorcerers get badly screwed with these rules for memorizing spells, as wizards practically get all the sorcerers' advantages without the drawbacks. Any thoughts? |
| Jindl10-14-03, 11:59 AM | Mo, regarding Wiz vs Sor, I was thinking the same thing at first. But being able to pick and chose spells on the fly is invaluable. Especially at higher levels. At the lower levels, the wiz will have a distinct advantage due to his earlier spell acquisition (2nd level spells at 3rd class level ...) and he doesn't have to worry about so many possibilities (he can memorize all sleeps for example, without needing to memorize see invis, etc.) At higher levels, the wizards will need to worry about dispel magics affecting their buffs. For this reason, wiz players will have to take duplicates of their best buff spells, which will reduce the amount of combat spells they take. Sorc players on the other hand can just recast any buff they know, anytime they want. I don't know if this will balance out the classes but that's just the breaks. I don't think we should adjust the arena in any way, however. Otherwise the bards will start wanting more compensation too... Edit: Another benefit of the sorc is that they don't have to spend money buying scrolls and then scribing them into spellbooks. They can instead spend their money on other purchases... -Jindl BTW: Everybody please post the following info on the "Polls" thread: The number of fights you mod, the number of active characters you are allowed based on the fights you mod (see the updated arena rules on the builds thread), and the names of your active characters and inactive characters. Please reference my post as an example. This way the "Polls" thread can also help us track characters and mods by the players name... Thanks! |
| sloisel10-14-03, 12:50 PM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx I really appreciate your involvement, and your precious and beautiful work, but I have a bad feeling about going out of the threads, even partially. Another thing is that by keeping the thing on the boards, we keep it bumped and so raise our visibility to others in the forum. I guess we might post our first poll about this? I'll write it on the new polls thread. If people like the idea, I'll stop worrying :) Don't worry about it man, it took me very little time. I realized that unless I made it first, nobody would be able to decide whether it was good or not, so now it's done. Doesn't matter if it dies a fiery death. On the vote thread, it might be worth it to have a brief (like 100 words) paragraph explaining why you'd want to move, and why you wouldn't. Something like, "Moving is good because it will make it easier to rearrange pairings and avoid mistakenly modifying character sheets after the deadline. Moving is bad because if sloisel destroys the web site, all we'll have to restore characters is the nightly backups, assuming someone bothers to download them." By the way, if the main obstacle is you fear I might act bad, maybe we could assuage your fears by hosting the entire thing on some other web site, maybe one controlled by someone you trust more. All I'm using is php scripting and mysql, so there should be a plethora of admissible servers. Perhaps even sourceforge (although I'm not 100% certain about mysql on sourceforge.) I can also make you an account on this server. Sébastien Loisel |
| sloisel10-14-03, 04:28 PM | I just saw on another thread that apparently Andy said animal companions get stat increases when they hit multiple-of-4 HDs. So far, I wasn't doing that in here, because ability increases isn't specifically listed in the druid class. Which one's it going to be? I'm indifferent to it. Sébastien Loisel |
| Moherajikuyx10-14-03, 05:08 PM | Originally posted by sloisel On the vote thread, it might be worth it to have a brief (like 100 words) paragraph explaining why you'd want to move, and why you wouldn't. Mh, I'm sure I would make my opinion evident. I prefer it s way. I don't have fears about your trustworthyness at all! I only see people getting bored at times, this could happen for you (as well as for me). People tend to abandon when a site dies, while keeping something focused in a place makes it known. How much time do you people think it would be correct to wait for poll results to be validated? |
| Moherajikuyx10-14-03, 05:16 PM | About the AS thing... The Andy Collins rules forum, also called Connection of Rules Lawyers, shows quite a trend for my version. Check out at http://pub36.ezboard.com/fgameschat19968frm12.showMessage?topicID =264.topic I'm not posting replies in hope that Andy will reply: I know that the word of these guys is not the same as Andy's, and He replies only in rare cases. |
| sloisel10-14-03, 05:22 PM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx How much time do you people think it would be correct to wait for poll results to be validated? Well it doesn't really matter, since I get the feeling that the principal parties aren't very enthusiastic about the idea. Really, whatever is most convenient to people who run the arena is preferable. Sébastien Loisel |
| Magagumo10-14-03, 05:40 PM | Actually, since the animal companions are recieving bonus HD, they do not qualify for the stat point, though this process is obviously simulated by the increases to Str/Dex that they get periodically. To the people running my fight with Lucient and Bruno, please give to this evening to get my tactics to you... We aren't in a rush to be ready by tomorrow, and I haven't had access to email since Thursday ^_^;; Thye should be sent out in a few hours. |
| LLMadCow10-14-03, 09:10 PM | Xaver vs Curunigur posted. Sorry it took forever. First attempt and a few mistakes to be corrected. If anyone would like to take my second one, feel free. Otherwise I will try to get to it by Sunday. Enjoy... |
| SnarkHunter10-14-03, 09:43 PM | Magumbo: why wouldn't Bonus HD qualify you for stat increases? I noticed a few mistakes in the last few fights, mainly in the "keeping track of all the crazy stuff" department. Hp's were not adjusted when damage was recorded is all. |
| SnarkHunter10-14-03, 09:47 PM | Also, from Mo's link: Andy Collins Checkin' my e-mail (10/14/03 1:23 pm) Reply Re: scrolls saving throws DCs -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Unless specifically stated otherwise in the description of a feat or special ability, you can't apply any of your own spellcasting features (ability mod, feats, class features, etc.) to the effect of a spell cast from a magic item. Staffs, for instance, are an exception to this rule as stated in the DMG. Andy Collins Senior Designer Wizards of the Coast Roleplaying R&D Well. I can accept that. I admit that I was wrong, and it looks like augment summoning and the like can not be applied to scrolls. Have too wait for staves everyone! |
| sloisel10-14-03, 10:41 PM | Originally posted by LLMadCow Xaver vs Curunigur posted. Sorry it took forever. First attempt and a few mistakes to be corrected. If anyone would like to take my second one, feel free. Otherwise I will try to get to it by Sunday. Enjoy... I'm not sure I understand the end of that one. What happened in round 18? What's this conceding business? Sébastien Loisel |
| LLMadCow10-15-03, 12:21 AM | Curunigur decided to GIVE UP as opposed to GET KILLED. Xaver tactics said that he was willing to accept SURRENDR as opposed to death... Thats all... |
| sloisel10-15-03, 12:39 AM | Originally posted by LLMadCow Curunigur decided to GIVE UP as opposed to GET KILLED. Xaver tactics said that he was willing to accept SURRENDR as opposed to death... Thats all... Ok, interesting. What's the penalty for dying in the arena? Sébastien Loisel |
| Moherajikuyx10-15-03, 04:15 AM | MMUHAHAHHA the world is safe! I really appreciate it btw: a game designer in person who replies to answers posted by the people. That's not so usual isn't it. sloisel - it's just for style =] |
| Moherajikuyx10-15-03, 04:27 AM | Ergh... LL.... Surrendering instead of dying would be acceptable at 0 hps, not when having an hp and AC advantage over the foe.... The fight doesn't look finished yet. A few notes: - did you roll arcane spell failure for Xaver's scrolls? - AC 15 +4 mage arm +4 shield +2 prot = 25, spider climbing doesn't remove dex to AC: round 15 and 16 aren't hits. - enlarged persons get -2 to ac and to ranged attacks. Although rerunning isn't a good thing, fights should be finished. So why don't you just keep on from where you're, correcting the few mistakes? |
| Galamdring10-15-03, 05:43 AM | Greetings... I would like to know what is going on. My character's fight hasn't been posted yet and the pairings are supposed to be today. What are you planning to do? We should have some time to update our characters, analyse our opponents and mail the tactics the moderator... Thanks... |
| Moherajikuyx10-15-03, 06:27 AM | This week we are delaying the fights, because we had too many characters and few moderators last week. We decided to post stricter rules for number of characters, so that this won't happen again. |
| Galamdring10-15-03, 07:31 AM | Thanks for the reply, Moherajikuyx. :) |
| Irlina10-15-03, 08:48 AM | Just deleted my two always losing clerics and added a new char. Tanya the Tieflling. I hope for more luck this time! |
| Caterane10-15-03, 09:53 AM | @Irlina: Looks cool. A pity we haven`t much choice in the more exotic races... *hint to Mo* @Snark: By the way, what was the point in killing my familiar? If you wanted to damage my banking account then the next step would be tearing my scrolls apart or sundering my weapon/armor while I`m disabled. I don`t like this development, if we go that route... |
| Irlina10-15-03, 10:07 AM | @Caterane I woundered also when I read of your fight. I don't know what's the opinion about it, but I would suggest not having to pay for destroyed stuff, only for items you used. Why: a) It can break a concept. Imagine fighting against a Improved Sunderer, who first destroys your weapons with his adamantine 2handed sword, then your shield and armor (all magic of course). For me it's a valid and good tactic, but the defeated character will have, even if he wins, problems with equipment.b) You don't have a choice against whom you fight, so in some cases it might even better to suicide in round 1 than risking to loose too much ;) c) The numbers for gp in the DMG give the amount of wealth you OWN AT A CERTAIN LEVEL, not the amount you spend till there. d) if you use an item it's your own choice, so you should have an penalty (in gold). I know it's kind of contradiction to c) but it's easier to handle this way. So concluding I would suggest repairing destroyed stuff (or familiars) is free, as you didn't have a choice to loose them but used stuff you have to pay. |
| Caterane10-15-03, 10:21 AM | ...and it is unfair compared to druids/paladins who can just replace their deceased companion for free Well spoken, Irlina |
| fluiddragon10-15-03, 10:22 AM | As to the fight with Xaver, I would like to see it finished too. I don't want someting just handed to me. I don't know if you forgot, in my tactics I said if he climbs to use the spiked chain, and close to melee range, and not to forget E.Retreat to close with him. I didn't want him to trade shots. He is not an archer and will definitely loose palying the archers game. And I didn't realy consider a spider climbing archer when I built this char :D. Anyway I'm still for finishing the fight. I would like him to try to heal, rebuff if possible and close like my tactics stated. But I don't want a free victory. ----------------------------------------- Ok here is a stupid question, what happens when your character dies? Is he dead and you can't replay him (mainly if you have leveled up?) Or do you just replay him minus the equipment he used. Second question, where is the list of allowable races/monsters ? What page of this thread is it on? -FD |
| Moherajikuyx10-15-03, 10:57 AM | Well, actually, as the evilTM dm that I am, I send against my players some item destroyers at times. I still have to try Mordy's, though... :D It happens, so I wouldn't care too much if some of my characters encountered them. It also shows: 1. not basing everything on a single piece of equipment 2. having escape routes if something goes wrong Moreover, when others try to destroy your equipment, they aren't killing you: usually, I see, in the arena they lose, so who cares? The lost equipment's cost is usually not noticeable at later levels, and an easy victory supercedes it. fluid - deads are resurrected, and lose used equipment. Here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1459274#post1459274)'s the thread with the allowed races list. |
| Moherajikuyx10-15-03, 11:08 AM | Irlina, your last character's got a few glitches. - make evident on the equipment list the scrolls you crafted - crafted scrolls' costs are 16.66, don't drop the cents ;) - big one: you can't ready an action to cast sleep because it's a 1round spell in 3.5 :( I fell with this one too. |
| Irlina10-15-03, 11:22 AM | @Mo thx and done |
| Jindl10-15-03, 11:40 AM | Originally posted by fluiddragon And I didn't realy consider a spider climbing archer when I built this char :D. Um, I think that spider climb requires 2 feet and at least 1 hand. So how can you use a two handed weapon (like a bow) while spider climbing?? -Jindl |
| Jindl10-15-03, 11:57 AM | Originally posted by Irlina @Caterane I woundered also when I read of your fight. I don't know what's the opinion about it, but I would suggest not having to pay for destroyed stuff, only for items you used. Why: a) It can break a concept. Imagine fighting against a Improved Sunderer, who first destroys your weapons with his adamantine 2handed sword, then your shield and armor (all magic of course). For me it's a valid and good tactic, but the defeated character will have, even if he wins, problems with equipment.b) You don't have a choice against whom you fight, so in some cases it might even better to suicide in round 1 than risking to loose too much ;) c) The numbers for gp in the DMG give the amount of wealth you OWN AT A CERTAIN LEVEL, not the amount you spend till there. d) if you use an item it's your own choice, so you should have an penalty (in gold). I know it's kind of contradiction to c) but it's easier to handle this way. So concluding I would suggest repairing destroyed stuff (or familiars) is free, as you didn't have a choice to loose them but used stuff you have to pay. We had a similar discussion several weeks ago (look in the first 10 pages or so of this thread.) I agree that a character who faces a sunderer risks losing equipment and therefore having financial difficulties. Currently I would suggest planning ways to avoid that when you write your characters tactics (perhaps by weilding a cheap back-up weapon, or using ranged attacks, or my favorite - grappling.) But if everyone is worried that it will become a big problem, then we could adopt the following change: Sundered items are repaired at no cost. I kind of like this idea, and would be happy to see it implemented. As for killing the familiar, I don't see a problem with the way Snark handled it. Thus far in the fights, we have seen characters awakened by familiars after sleep spells, we have had characters almost killed by familiars (the Elder almost died from one attack by Bruno's hawk), and as things proceed we may even see familiars who can heal their masters or use spell-like abilities (Improved Familiar - ice mephit with a cure serious potion...). So I think a familiar is a combatant/ally just like a druid's animal companion or a barbarians warpony, and therefore is a viable target until the fight is over. If it costs 100 gp to replace a familiar then either keep them out of the fight, or pay it if they die. This is very different from a druid/paladin's special companians. Their allies are a major class ability that is intended to help them with melee combat. Familiars are not intended for melee combat use. So that's why druids/paladins benefit from cheap replacement. Even so, 100 gp is not that much money, so just pay it and get a new familiar. -Jindl |
| Jindl10-15-03, 12:07 PM | Originally posted by Irlina Just deleted my two always losing clerics and added a new char. Tanya the Tieflling. I hope for more luck this time! EVERYONE please note: If you delete a character to replace him/her with a new one, please just edit your previous character out and put the new one in the same post. That way we don't have to scroll through 5 pages of deleted characters to get to the active character sheets. I'm sure all the mod's will appreciate it !! As for the Tiefling, I'm glad to see another try at it. My previous attempt (Hy Denshadow the Tiefling Monk) died early on due to the low hps incurred from the LA +1. Hopefully yours can avoid this problem... @Cat - I know you want an expanded race list, and that's fine. But Drow, Githyanki, etc. are all going to suffer from the lower hps as compared to the other ECL 3 characters. Take for example a Drow 1st level fighter has 10 hp + 1 x Con modifier. A 3rd level human fighter has 22 hp + 3 x Con modifier. That is very difficult to overcome. Plus the lower HD means you are succeptable longer to sleep spells and you gain feats/ability score improvements/and all class abilities slower. Even a +1 LA can make a character significantly weaker than others (with a few exceptions, like Karse). I just don't see how any +2 LA race can be competitive with the +0 LA races... but that's just my opinion. -Jindl |
| Caterane10-15-03, 12:08 PM | @Jindl: I don´t have a problem with killing companions or familiars when they are a serious threat but in my case Ebelin was at -8 hp and the toad had no means of reviving me or threatening Bilo. It was for financial damage`s sake only! Edit: Well, that`s the problem of the one playing such a class |
| LLMadCow10-15-03, 12:13 PM | Ergh... LL.... Surrendering instead of dying would be acceptable at 0 hps, not when having an hp and AC advantage over the foe.... The fight doesn't look finished yet. Sorry, I was copying and pasting. You were at 0 HP and I forgot to reflect the most recent damage on your HP total. Sorry... |
| Magagumo10-15-03, 02:30 PM | *nod* the slaying of familiars can be a cruel business. In Bruno's fight vs. the Elder, it had to be done, or Tommy would have killed the old elf next round (forebearing any unforeseen difficulties.. ;)) In general, familiars tend to be very hard to kill, especially if they have wings or move quickly. Overall, I viewed the occurence in Ebelin vs. Bilo's fight as serving two purposes: One, it illustrates the difficulties of bringing a familiar in with you, they can be very vulnerable at low levels (the hawk's that help spellcasters target sleep seplls are in serious trouble against strong archers or a decent evocation caster), and thus care must be taken if you bring them in. On top of that, familiars (such as the toad) are extremely vulnerable, as they have slow move speeds and no attacks... this is why their owners get the Toughness feat for free. My recommendation, against a character you suspect of such low tactics, don't bring the familiar in. You keep the benefits (except Alertness) and you don't have that danger then. Two, Bilo is a hideous monster. As a chaotic evil character, who has recently developed a hatred for the tiny things of nature *cough, bats, cough*, his actions are not unusual. In addition, once the character drops to -10, the fight is over, so the familiars and companions cannot be assaulted. In fact, if the toad had rolled its stabilize check, it would have lived, and Ebelin would have died... bad luck in the end. I would say Bilo is simply deserving of the same actions.. hate breeding hate and the like... ^_~ Can't hold an action to cast sleep, huh? Very interesting... :) |
| Caterane10-15-03, 03:08 PM | HERE IT COMES!!! The fight of fights!! Alathar Vierce vs Skymoon Moonbow (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1585082#post1585082) Holy $hit!! What a battle! Yours Caterane |
| waywreth10-15-03, 03:30 PM | Great fight there. I'd just like to offer my appreciation of the fights thread, I read the new ones every time they come out! That one went down the the wire, and the bonus goings on with the crowd are hilarious! |
| Jindl10-15-03, 04:00 PM | Good fight. But I'm not sure that share spells works for potions... What do you guys think? -Jindl |
| Caterane10-15-03, 04:04 PM | I had a discussion with Snark prior to the fight about this and we agreed that it affects both based on this exerpt: potions are like spells cast upon the imbiber. The character taking the potion doesn’t get to make any decisions about the effect —the caster who brewed the potion has already done so. The drinker of a potion is both the effective target and the caster of the effect (though the potion indicates the caster level, the drinker still controls the effect). |
| Magagumo10-15-03, 04:11 PM | I suggest that that fight be listed as the most entertaining one yet (greatest amount of tie-ins ever!! :D). As a GM who prides himself in bringing back old NPCs in new and enterprising ways, I salute you Caterane- Your recent fight is a shining example to us all :) Of course.. this does mean that Bilo and Moon-moon will be fighting each other next week... mwahahahaha! ^_^ Edit: Hey Cat, as I needed to send tactics in vs. Harvester, I noticed that he has a Will +8. I count +3 from 2nd cleric, and +3 from wisdom 16, where's the other +2 from? |
| Jindl10-15-03, 04:13 PM | Originally posted by Caterane I had a discussion with Snark prior to the fight about this and we agreed that it affects both based on this exerpt: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- potions are like spells cast upon the imbiber. The character taking the potion doesn’t get to make any decisions about the effect —the caster who brewed the potion has already done so. The drinker of a potion is both the effective target and the caster of the effect (though the potion indicates the caster level, the drinker still controls the effect). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm sure Jindl's animal companions will appreciate that !!! |
| Alathar Vierce10-15-03, 04:38 PM | Pleased with the outcome, but failing to see how the potion of Enlarge Person affected the horse. Seeing as that was attempted in a previous fight :) But *claps* all is well |
| Moherajikuyx10-15-03, 04:43 PM | Caterane, for crowd acclamation, I hereby declare this to be the best fight ever! |
| Moherajikuyx10-15-03, 04:53 PM | About the potions, hold it. You may share a spell, not an effect or an ability, so potions are out, sorry. The quoted passage says that the drinker is the caster of the effect, not of the spell, and he should be the caster of the spell. Moreover, it says that the drinker can't take decisions, as the caster who crafted the potion already did them, and sharing a spell is quite a decision. Sorry animal friends :) *edit* Alathar, the enlarge, had Moon-moon cast it, would have worked on the horse too though, as explained in share spells. |
| Caterane10-15-03, 05:22 PM | @Magagumo: Iron will I did sent you the tactics a week ago or so. You did receive it, didn`t you? Edit: Oh, Imizael is the moderator *burrows head in ground* |
| Kukanil10-15-03, 08:44 PM | I updated my char with the level/cash gain from fluids fight. Question: Can you sell items you dont want anymore for half their cost? Dont need my breastplate anymore. |
| Magagumo10-16-03, 12:33 AM | Ahh... curse you Iron Will!!! ;) Um.. mo, it says it the caster of the effect.. are we sure that isn't the same as casting the spell itself? Since casting a spell on yourself lets you ignore your own Spell Resistance, and potions obviously are not blocked by SR when you drink them, I do believe it is safe to read the drinker as being the caster. |
| Moherajikuyx10-16-03, 04:01 AM | He's the "caster" in relation to what is written on the spell: he gets the aura for instance; so we're only talking about the effect. There's no casting. That's just a way to say that the caster transfers the effect to the drinker: the real casting is already done. From the reply Andy gave us on his thread, it's quite straight forward actually. "Unless specifically stated otherwise in the description of a feat or special ability, you can't apply any of your own spellcasting features (ability mod, feats, class features, etc.) to the effect of a spell cast from a magic item". I think that the motivation is to try to be different from magic, we're talking about heroes here, not magic item combos. |
| Irlina10-16-03, 06:43 AM | So where are the new pairings? :) Potion topic: I don't like the idea that potions share their effects. You don't cast, you just "use" it and therefore cannot share effects. "potions are like spells cast upon the imbiber" So, if cleric A cast cure light wounds on paladin b, his mount C doesn't get the effect. In this cast cleric A is the potionmaker and mount C doesn't get healed. share spells: "...cast by himself..." So no potion-sharing. |
| Moherajikuyx10-16-03, 08:20 AM | On a side note, it doesn't work either with wands and scrolls, while it looks it works with staves. About the new pairings: this week we've got to jump, for the problems that arose during last week. We're waiting for these fights: Level 2 Hurtz, Tellish_of_Ket vs. Lucient Noctern, Magagumo: fluiddragon Kelek, Tellish_of_Ket vs. Jorge de Berniers, SnarkHunter: LLMadCow Trom the Blue, sloisel vs. Octavian Cesar, barrel_master: Imizael Mara ThunderStorm, Galamdring vs. Lacelar, Eschaton: Tellish Level 3 Bruno Wilikens, Magagumo vs. The Harvester, Caterane: Imizael Tomar Vilir, KerlanRayne vs. Allister Swiftfoot, LLMadCow: Caterane All of which belong to moderators that asked to have only one, but the big numbers prevented this, so it's absolutely not their fault. If anyone wants to delegate a fight to another moderator, I don't have problems. Note: from the next pairings, there's new rules for the numbers of characters. Check it at the gladiators' thread with the rules. Note that you don't have to delete characters in eccess, but only to declare them unready. |
| barrel_master10-16-03, 10:15 AM | ^How does one go about becoming a moderator? Do I just have to declare it here or do I have to email you or something? |
| Moherajikuyx10-16-03, 10:17 AM | You are one now :D |
| Moherajikuyx10-16-03, 10:59 AM | I want to underline it: don't delete the characters only for the characters number rules: these rules are under work, if they appear to be too harsh (or too morbid) they will get modified. |
| barrel_master10-16-03, 12:31 PM | I have a few questions.... 1. Are we alowed to 'purchase' a spell caster's services out side of the arena as listed in the 'equipment' section of the SRD? Can we simply have the caster use spells like true strike (which doesn't seem to have a 'end time'). 2. Are paladins alowed a non standard mount and if so how would that all work (ie. what level would they get it at and other stuff like that)? If other classes are alowed a non standard mount how much would they cost? 3. Would a paladin be allowed to cast say... fly from a scroll that a cleric with the traveling domain created? Would the same thing apply if a wizzard created the scroll? (I don't imagine that's the case but I suppose their's no harm in asking.) |
| sloisel10-16-03, 12:49 PM | Originally posted by barrel_master I have a few questions.... 1. Are we alowed to 'purchase' a spell caster's services out side of the arena as listed in the 'equipment' section of the SRD? Can we simply have the caster use spells like true strike (which doesn't seem to have a 'end time'). 2. Are paladins alowed a non standard mount and if so how would that all work (ie. what level would they get it at and other stuff like that)? If other classes are alowed a non standard mount how much would they cost? 3. Would a paladin be allowed to cast say... fly from a scroll that a cleric with the traveling domain created? Would the same thing apply if a wizzard created the scroll? (I don't imagine that's the case but I suppose their's no harm in asking.) 1. If not, people had better tell me because I might do that at some point. However, true strike does end after a round, read it again. 2. Some nonstandard mounts are priced in the MM. However, a lot of the possible mounts listed in the DMG aren't. Perhaps it would be possible to price these mounts in the arena so that people can make the most out of their paladins? Maybe take the CR, look it up on the experience point table and divide by 2 or something. 3. The rule for casting spells from scrolls is that the spells have to be on your class spell list. Sébastien Loisel |
| barrel_master10-16-03, 01:12 PM | 1. You're right about true strike. 2. Thank you. But are we going to allow a Paladin to summon non-standard creatures? 3. Does that go for 'ring's of spell storing'? I don't imagine it would. |
| Jindl10-16-03, 01:20 PM | Originally posted by barrel_master I have a few questions.... 1. Are we alowed to 'purchase' a spell caster's services out side of the arena as listed in the 'equipment' section of the SRD? Can we simply have the caster use spells like true strike (which doesn't seem to have a 'end time'). I would suggest only allowing this for spells that have a permanent duration (making them more like magic items than temporary effects.) Thus at higher levels the fighter types could get see invisibility + permanancy... for example. Originally posted by barrel_master 2. Are paladins alowed a non standard mount and if so how would that all work (ie. what level would they get it at and other stuff like that)? If other classes are alowed a non standard mount how much would they cost? Although I couldn't find it in the SRD, there is a list of nonstandard paladin mounts and what level they become available in the DMG. Note: A paladin receives his/her mount for free. As for other classes, allies (mounts or otherwise) can be purchased at the price listed either in the PHB or in the monster entry in the DMG. Hence, a psuedodragon costs 20000 gp, a griffon costs 3000 gp (I think?), etc. If the ally is not listed as having a price, then you can't use it in the arena. Originally posted by barrel_master 3. Would a paladin be allowed to cast say... fly from a scroll that a cleric with the traveling domain created? Would the same thing apply if a wizzard created the scroll? (I don't imagine that's the case but I suppose their's no harm in asking.) As sloisel said, the spell must be on your class list. So no paladins will be casting fly from scrolls. Another issue is that the scroll is priced as if it were crafted by a character of your class. Therefore a druid scroll of dispel magic = 4th level spell X 7th level caster X 25 gp = 700 gp. While a clerical scroll of dispel magic is only 375 gp. (For all you druids, don't worry we get a break on the cost of other spells, like flame strike...) -Jindl PS: Since Imizael seems to have disappeared, I will be happy to run both of his fights this weekend. I have the tactics for: Trom the Blue, sloisel vs. Octavian Cesar, barrel_master, but I still need tactics for: Bruno Wilikens, Magagumo vs. The Harvester, Caterane. |
| Magagumo10-16-03, 01:22 PM | 1. I would say purchasing the services of outside sources is fair (it should cost the same as if one were buying a scroll I do believe.) Remember, that the spells must have a duration of 24 hrs to walk in with them. The ring of spell storing can work like that but the ring is extremely expensive, as is constantly buying the spells :) At higher levels, it does seem to be a viable tactic, yes, especially for those who can't cast spells ^_~. 2. Paladins do not have to spend any money to purchase their mounts, as they are granted by their deity. I do believe the DMG has well-established rules for non-standard mounts for paladins (based on CR and whatnot). 3. For any other classes obtaining non-standard mounts, I would consult the MM (since this is Core only, I would not recommend trying to develop costs for other creatures), since that also has the prices required to get the animal. Also, remember that your character needs the requisite ranks in Handle Animal in order to train his/her new mount. Edit: heh, and it seems Jindl and I have both now addressed the issues... I think that makes our words final, eh Jindl? ^_~ Good to hear someone is running Bruno :-P, I'll get you my tactics by this evening... (bloody cleric... why can't I ever get someone with a nice, low Will save ;)) |
| fluiddragon10-16-03, 03:03 PM | In regards to this fight Hurtz, Tellish_of_Ket vs. Lucient Noctern, Magagumo: fluiddragon, I will run it sunday afternoon. Thats the soonest I can do it. If someone has the time before then and would like to run it that would be ok. -fd |
| Caterane10-16-03, 03:48 PM | The same goes for my fight. On top of that I won`t be able to provide any story at all. Sorry, my time shedule is absolutly crowded and the Alathar vs Skymoon fight ate more of my freetime than I had available. I will run it with the rolls only. |
| sloisel10-16-03, 10:28 PM | Do they count as allies or as items? Can I walk into the arena wielding an Intelligent Sword of Death and riding Rex the Wolf, or do I have to choose? Sébastien Loisel |
| SnarkHunter10-17-03, 12:18 AM | For potions: Well I hought the rules we're clear but I guess I was mistaken. Once again, accept move on. For Familiar death: Bilo isn't a monster! HE's just terribly terribly terribly terribly terribly terribly terribly terriblyterriblyterribly terribly misunderstood. But yeah, ignoring the whole-he's evil so Blah blah blah, that was a pretty raw deal for you. But...laws of the arena risk is a part of life, give like you get. I don't know what I'm saying here. For Alathar vierce vs. Moon. Holy Cats! Incredible job Cat, even though I lost it was one of the most satisfying fights I;ve read in a while (he was at single digit hps! Oh...bless the Paladin's code and its restrictions on cursing!). This also means...Bilo and Moon-moon will be fighting next round...Yay! Smite evil finally useful! |
| Caterane10-17-03, 04:45 AM | Thanks that you all liked it. Concerning the Bilo vs Skymoon fight: I would suggest that 2 characters of the same player don`t fight each other. Where`s the deal? He knows the tactic of both and can manipulate it as he seems fit ...without spending any gold, of course. I would VOTE that this shouldn`t be possible. If the Harvester anyhow meets Ebelin I will unmark one of them to prevent this. As for the familiar: I think tearing scrolls apart and crashing potions while my foe is unconscious will be extremly satisfying to read. You must know my characters are just terribly terribly terribly terribly terribly terribly terribly terriblyterriblyterribly terribly misunderstood. ;) |
| Irlina10-17-03, 08:16 AM | @Cat Yes, it doesn't make much sense letting 2 characters run by the same player fight against each other. |
| Caterane10-17-03, 01:57 PM | It`s been quiet around here. Anyway, I want to add a section about "Online RPGs" into my lecture but I can`t find vital informations about it. Perhaps you know something? Links? |
| Magagumo10-17-03, 03:19 PM | Scrolls and potions can't coup de grace a fallen foe though ;) Nor can they deliver touch attacks... Drat, tactics... sending them your way Jindl... now...ish :) |
| Caterane10-17-03, 03:38 PM | On the contrary: Scrolls can deal 12d6 points of fire damage ;) which is more any familiar will ever deal |
| Jindl10-17-03, 03:43 PM | Cat- Please send me the tactics for the Harvestor vs Bruno ... -Jindl Edit: Thanks! |
| Moherajikuyx10-17-03, 04:23 PM | I was wondering... When attacked with energy, we shall list the cases where a character might lose equipment. A sure example would be the classic fireball... Not many spells left even with a saved save, unless evasion comes to play, I guess. But what about a simple spell? Or even, your usual alchemic fire? My knowledge of the rules gets thin in this contest. |
| Caterane10-17-03, 04:31 PM | Tactics sent Lets rock ...eh harvest |
| Jindl10-17-03, 04:35 PM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx I was wondering... When attacked with energy, we shall list the cases where a character might lose equipment. A sure example would be the classic fireball... Not many spells left even with a saved save, unless evasion comes to play, I guess. But what about a simple spell? Or even, your usual alchemic fire? My knowledge of the rules gets thin in this contest. The rules regarding damage to equipment are in the DMG. They state that if a character gets a natural 1 on his save, then a piece of equipment has to make a save as well. Equipment is tested according to the order listed on the table. If the first item saves, then the next item is tested, and so forth until either everything saves or the first item fails a save. Hence, only one piece of equip can be damaged, and the damage still doesn't necessarily destroy the item. (Yeah that fireball may affect my +2 full plate mail because the item failed its save, but I doubt the damage will do much to it, since it has a good hardness and plenty of hps.) I would again like to make a suggestion, perhaps we should vote on this rule: Equipment sundered/destroyed during combat will be repaired for free. This does not apply to allies/constructs/intelligent items, etc. That way, a sunderer or shatterer or other type of equipment destroyer can still win the fight but doesn't end his/her opponents career. I strongly recommend we implement this rule before anyone can cast Mordenkainen's Disjunction... -Jindl |
| SnarkHunter10-17-03, 05:40 PM | Cat, Irlindal; Okay I admit that it doesn't seem particuarly fun to have 2 characters of one player fight each other. Normally, this wouldn't even be an issue because there could be a reroll or one character could retire. But there is no one else at 6th level right now. If there isn't a fight there will be two pretty negative consequences. 1st 2/3 of my characters won't fight that week. Given that, well why should I run any fights? I'd only have wee Jorge in anyway. I could do homework instead...well lets not talk crazy here but still. 2nd. Alathar would have another vacation while he waits 2 weeks to see who's going to climb up the ranks this time to challenge. If there's a fight next week, at least there will be a challenge at the end of it. Finally I think the concern of you guys may be that it just won't be fun, becuase my tacticts will consist of "Moon-moon takes off all his armor and run into the middle with my eyes closed." I promise I won't do that. And if you still don't think it would be an entertaing fight, I do have one means of guarenteing that it would be fun to read. I could run it. I wouldn't cheet, I wouldn't fudge, and the dice will decide a fair amount of the fight. But it would be an interesting look at what happens when two characters have unprecedented reactive capabilities, and what develops from that. Thats all. |
| Moherajikuyx10-17-03, 05:56 PM | Of course Snarky! The "no two of the same" is only a policy for when there are other chances. And I hope no one didn't really intend to say that! :D I want to see that fight from quite a time: I bet it's going to be cool! |
| Jindl10-17-03, 05:58 PM | I also don't like the idea of two characters from the same player facing each other. But I like the idea of 3 characters sitting out (Bilo, Moon-moon + Alathar) an extra week even less. From personal experience, it has really sucked having none of my characters fight this week. So I think that the match goes on. But, Snark, even though I trust your moderating, and I don't question your integrity, for appearances it is probably best if you do not run the fight. It would be better if I or Magagumo ran it, and I'm sure either of us will be happy to do so. We have both faced and run Bilo and Moon-moon before and are familiar with what their standard tactics should be. Cat, you can rest assured that proper "fight to win" tactics will be used. Remember, Moon-moon is a paladin and Bilo is the evil-est character thus far (except maybe for the Harvester), so I'm sure they will both put every effort towards destroying the other... Mo, please assign either Magagumo or myself to moderate. I am sure this will satisfy everyone. -Jindl |
| Moherajikuyx10-17-03, 06:03 PM | That's so hard? Oh well. I feared worst. Free repairing. This quite hampers the item breaker strategies. Of course Mordenkainen's not a item breaker strategy. What about free re-enhancement of unbroken disenchanted magical items? Sunderers are already quite weak, it looks, from the fights' results. |
| Jindl10-17-03, 06:09 PM | I don't think sunderers are weak. I think their strengths come at higher levels (when they can start sundering really good stuff like +3 swords, +1 mithral platemails, or staves, etc...) It only "hampers item breaker strategies" if the strategy was to bankrupt the other characters. If the strategy was merely to win the fight, then sundering still works great! You deprive your foe of his best item for the rest of the fight. I'm sure Alathar would hate it if someone sundered his chain during the first round of melee. Or if someone sundered Moon-moon's lance. It can really debilitate your opponent. But it shouldn't destroy their career (at high levels a weapon can easily be worth 200,000 gp. The current repair rules require 116,667 gp to fix it, and if its broke you probably lost the fight...) And Mordenkainen's Disjunction is the ultimate in item breaker strategies (it breaks all of you magic items at once, with a limited save (only permanent magic items...), no way to defeat it except antimagic shell or counterspell...) As for the reenchanting, it was covered in my suggestion: Equipment sundered/destroyed during combat will be repaired for free. This does not apply to allies/constructs/intelligent items, etc. (Disenchanted = destroyed, repaired = reenchanted). I didn't want it to apply to constructs or intelligent items because these things are combatants, and therefore should have a risk of death/destruction. -Jindl Edited: Thanks for the correction Magagumo |
| Moherajikuyx10-17-03, 06:36 PM | Wait, MD makes them normal items doesn't it? Well, anyways, this looks like a good thing to ask in a poll. |
| Caterane10-17-03, 06:51 PM | Mordenkaines Disjunction?? That`ll most probably kills a character if made irreversable!! I strongly recommend to reset destroyed or disjunted items after the fight. The Arena focused on DUELS and should not affect other fights. If I lose all magic items my next enemy will have easy play and this has nothing to do with him himself |
| Alathar Vierce10-18-03, 05:06 AM | Laggy, double post :). |
| Alathar Vierce10-18-03, 05:08 AM | Well the main reason for a top ended ladder of repeated fights, is that at the start there were a few people starting off even, and as time went by we had people drop out that were in contention, instead of 3-4 people at the top there were 6+ but due to changing of characters its made it sequels. But to be honest no two fight are going to be identical, either the loser from prior will try something new, or etc. Me and moon have fought twice now and to say the fights were equal is quite a stretch. As far as having a vacation I'm fine with it, and its a way for me to ease the burden on the mods while giving a legit (damn that word) to do homework lol. I believe an item being dis-enchanted or destroyed for a fight, is enough punishment for that time, anymore just ruins a character into re-rolling, and to some that isn't fun to do consistently. |
| fluiddragon10-18-03, 09:05 AM | I also think sundered items or MD items should be reset or repaired for free. We are not playing in a campaign setting, but focused duels vs other same level characters. Having the items lost in a fight or broken is enough punishment for the fight. After the fight it maeks a character unable to compete with a same level character. -FD |
| Caterane10-18-03, 09:57 AM | Hey, want to have something to laugh? Then check this out: Laugh your ass off (http://www.sisterworlds.com/gaeleth/classes/hammerofmoradin.htm) |
| Madhattr10-18-03, 10:30 AM | what's so funny the +1 BAB and +1 spellcasting? |
| Caterane10-18-03, 10:36 AM | Your kidding, ain`t ye? Ftr bab, 3 good saves, +1 spells, yeah the basics now Half-Celestial template, Evilsense (automatic), Teamwork and that was just Level 1!!! |
| Jindl10-18-03, 03:22 PM | Hey, lets get back on topic... this is the Core arena thread after all... Bruno vs. the Harvester is posted... came right down to the wire. -Jindl |
| SnarkHunter10-18-03, 09:36 PM | Ayeee thats nice right there. A strange and rather hilarious fight all around. Hurah for incarnation of death vs. the old and bitter! Question: Does a +1 enhancement for a weapon add to 2 to its harndess and 10 its HP's? Or 1 to each? Because the PG says one and the DMG says the other. Second Question: LL did I ever send you tactics for Jorge? I can't remember and I recently had to reformat my computer so I wasn't able to check e-mail records. If not I'll make em again. |
| Magagumo10-18-03, 11:52 PM | Hmm, I approve of the auto-reset of sundered items and such. Two notes: Mordenkainen's Disjunction has a Will Save (unless 3.5 made it more horrible than before....) You cannot sunder an opponent's worn armor... as much as my Fire Giant with the adamantine greatsword would like to do so.... :) |
| Caterane10-19-03, 05:09 AM | Damn, both my combatants died of critical hits. Have to buy a heavy fortification armor ASAP |
| Moherajikuyx10-19-03, 05:11 AM | Nice reading Jindl! A small glitch, stunned characters aren't helpless. |
| Caterane10-19-03, 05:16 AM | Oh really? :eek: Ah, but we agreed not to rerun, eh? Not my week :tantrum: |
| gorion10-19-03, 06:05 AM | Just a small question: Can a wizard learn new spell in his spellbook in this arena? For example... I buy a scroll of Grease. If I have enough ranks to learn the spell taking 10 on spellcraft check, can I add it to my spellbook? |
| Imizael10-19-03, 08:05 AM | sry I got problems with connection to inet.I will post fight today (i made it at paper but got to write it here ) sry for delay |
| Jindl10-19-03, 08:37 AM | Imizael- We thought we'd lost you... so I already ran the Bruno vs. Harvester fight. I was going to run the Trom vs. Octavian fight later today. If you want to go ahead and post Trom vs Octavian, thats fine...it would save me the trouble of running it. Catarane - Drat! Sorry Cat... my mistake. That should have been a normal scythe attack, not a CDG. I think the dice knew I was wrong, as the Harvester survived the CDG... Gorion - yes, that's exactly how you do it. Just remember to pay the 100 gp per page for any spells you copy into your spellbook in this manner. |
| Caterane10-19-03, 08:49 AM | @Jindl: Yes, but he lost more hp than he should`ve lost and so he dropped to -1 after the chill touch critical. If this weren`t the case, he could`ve dropped 3-hp-Bruno. As always... :rolleyes: |
| SnarkHunter10-19-03, 09:05 AM | Clearly the sunny skies of the caribbean have warped Jindles normally impeccable rules lawyering abilities. Cest la vie. |
| Magagumo10-19-03, 04:21 PM | Ah.. it seems others have noticed the difficulties as well... Oh, one final nail in my own coffin, it takes a standard action to recall a used spell with Pearl of Power, so that second color spray wouldn't have gone off till one round later.... *Sigh* Sorry Cat, it seems whenever the two of us are involved, something tragic happens to a character. Hey Mo, think Cat and I can avoid fighting each other ever again? :-P.. Ye, just kidding, but I'm sorry about the mix-up. Fortunately, you didn't lose anything, right? (Ah, if only Bruno had foolishly CDG the horse instead of killing his opponent ^_~... then both of us would have suffered.) Gah, at least Tommy II didn't expode from that Destruction blast.. that was mighty impressive, Cat (Perhaps Improved familiar will be on the horizon.. something with better durability..) |
| Caterane10-19-03, 07:07 PM | Critical hits, suicide tactic usage, wrong rule applications ...I don`t mourn about defeat itself but how it always comes to my characters. Think i get used to it... Well, I don`t have time the following weeks anyway so please Mo freeze the Harvester so I don`t have to run a fight. |
| barrel_master10-19-03, 07:49 PM | Has anyone checked out the fight with octavian (one of my dudes)? 1. Did you guys think it was cheap for me to kill him like that? |
| Magagumo10-19-03, 08:35 PM | Reading the fight over, I highly recommend to Imizael that he spearate the fight into round-by-round listings (Again, I direct your attention to the fights of other people such as Jindl, myself, Snark, and Cat, this is the best way to list the fights, and Im sure you could copy-paste them for your own purposes). Also, die rolls are very nice to see.. Hmm, sleep takes a full round action to cast, I see this listed in one of the combatants tactics as well, Imizael. While there's nothing wrong with locating the burst above the horse and rider, thus only catching the orc, the orc was supposed to be moving 5' forward every round, and was shooting every round... unless he missed with both arrows, Octavian would have had to make a Concentration chk or lose the sleep spell. While we can't rerun fights, this one does not look very complete, Imizael... Please try and work on this in the future. |
| Jindl10-19-03, 10:10 PM | @Mo, Cat + Magagumo - Thanks for the corrections on Pearl of power and stunning, they are noted for the future. @Cat - I hope you'll reconsider keeping the Harvester active (and continuing to moderate). He's a cool character and we all like reading your fights. @Magagumo - reading over Imizael's fight, I agree its kinda hard to understand. But I think that Octavian had used expeditious to move within the range of a sleep spell during the round he was hit by the arrow (its damage should have been 6 points because it is a mighty +4 bow...) It looks like both arrows missed on the round that sleep was cast, therefore no concentration check. It seems to be a complete fight, but it would be helpful if it was more fleshed out for ease of reading. @Imizael - If you're having trouble finding time to moderate, don't hesitate to ask one of us to help (or just tell everyone that you need the weekend off...like me and Snark and Magagumo and a lot of other people did last week;) ) Finally - I am working on a new character (which means I'll be taking a 3rd fight to moderate.) This one is a bad-a$$ cleric of Ehlonna (animal and sun domains). That's right a cleric who can't smite or use the Str domain... wierd huh? -Jindl PS: This is reply number 1000 !!! :ayyyy!: :ayyyy!: |
| SnarkHunter10-20-03, 12:18 AM | and this 1001...wish I could think of a handy palindrom now...Egad, a base life defiles a bad age! or, Live, O Devil, revel ever, live, do evil. Mmm... Well if I had to guess Jindle I'd say you were going for a thaumaturgist? Seems an interesting notion but surviving that long will be a trick...but it generally is. Oh and I'm totally in favour of some one else running the incestual Moon-moon vs. Bilo fight. I heart less work. |
| Moherajikuyx10-20-03, 08:50 AM | Missing fights: Level 2 Hurtz, Tellish_of_Ket vs. Lucient Noctern, Magagumo: fluiddragon Kelek, Tellish_of_Ket vs. Jorge de Berniers, SnarkHunter: LLMadCow Mara ThunderStorm, Galamdring vs. Lacelar, Eschaton: Tellish Level 3 Bruno Wilikens, Magagumo vs. The Harvester, Caterane: Imizael Tomar Vilir, KerlanRayne vs. Allister Swiftfoot, LLMadCow: Caterane We definitively want to apply the new numbers' rules from now on. |
| Caterane10-20-03, 08:57 AM | @Jindl: As much as I like moderating but I really don`t have any time in the next few weeks. I haven`t even moderated the Tomar vs Allister Fight I got 2 weeks ago (I will run it tonight though) How did a fellow countryman of me express it? "I`ll be back!" |
| Jindl10-20-03, 11:08 AM | Bruno vs. the Harvester has been posted (I ran since Imizael was unresponsive...) Cat will run the Tomar vs Allister match tonight. Mo, can you please partially update the roster now with the winners? Any characters that have yet to fight can be marked as not [OK]. Everyone - we need to go through our characters and mark [inactive] as the post subject on any characters that we are not using. Remember you can have 1 character + 1 / fight you moderate. For example: I can have 4 characters because I moderate 3 fights. Irlina can only have 1 character without moderating any fights. Don't delete the characters that go beyond your limit, just mark them inactive. That way you can bring them back later if you want to (or if you start moderating.) We need to do this during the next two days before pairings are set for this week. -Jindl |
| SnarkHunter10-20-03, 01:09 PM | For any fights not completed by wednesday are we just going to put people back in the pool? I imagine that would make the most sense... |
| barrel_master10-20-03, 03:38 PM | In regards to the 'should destroyed items be restored' yes... they should be fixed... however... one could also make a case for bringing back companions and animals then... if say, I purchased an expensive griffon then why shouldn't it come back if say an exqually expensive item was destroyed? If we're going to do something like this we should have come sort of cap... only items that are say... more then 10k gp will be restored. |
| Jindl10-20-03, 04:06 PM | EVERYONE please read: In an attempt to help Moherajikuyx with the pairings+moderators for this week, I have compiled the following list: Moderators: Jindl - 3 fights Moherajikuyx - 2 fights + roster Snarkhunter - 2 fights Magagumo - 2 fights Caterane - off Imizael - 2 fights (is this a problem???) LLMadCow - 1 fight Tellish_of_Ket - 1 fight barrel_master - 1 fight If this moderator list is correct then we have the following list of players/# of characters Jindl - maxxed out (4) Moherajikuyx - maxxed out (4) Snarkhunter - maxxed out (3) Magagumo - maxxed out (3) Caterane - maxxed out (1) Imizael - maxxed out (3) LLMadCow - maxxed out (2) Tellis_of_Ket - maxxed out (2) barrel_master - maxxed out (2) fluiddragon - 0 characters ready (limit is 1) Madhattr - maxxed out (1) KerlaynRayne - over the limit - allowed 1, has 2 Alathar Vierce - maxxed out (1) Irlina - maxxed out (1) sloisel - over the limit - allowed 1, has 2 galamdring - maxxed out (1) Kukanil - maxxed out (1) Eschaton - maxxed out (1) ***KerlaynRayne + sloisel: Please mark your characters either [Ready] or [Inactive] in the post subject section of your build post. ***ct2htw - please post here so we know if you are active or not. If everyone uses the max limit on characters then we will have ~30 characters participating in ~15 fights this week. We only have enough moderators for 14 fights, so even with the max character rule we need 1 more volunteers to run a Lvl 2 fight. Everyone, please help keep this running smoothly and efficiently by marking your characters, volunteering to moderate, and sending tactics in a timely manner. Moderators please try to finish the fights by the end of Saturday. Snark - I think putting the unfinished fights from last week back into the pool is a necessity at this point. So I guess we'll have to do this. If we all try to do these things, then this thread will run much better, and we will be able to do pairings/fights every week (and believe me, that is much more fun than every 2 weeks...) If anyone has any suggestions/comments, please do so. Sorry to take up so much space, just trying to help. -Jindl EDIT: Thanks for marking the Harvester, Cat. EDIT: barrel_master added to list of moderators :) |
| Imizael10-20-03, 04:44 PM | About Octavian vs The Blue Casting was a full round action but orc misses to shots and concentration wasn't needed I Include the rolls at the end - and I didn't make it round by one couse i wanted to see which way is better.If u prefer the old one round by round with rolls etc i will make them that way.Imo i prefer to ready only the story ( rolls as not needed imo couse it doeasnt change anything and round by round is less fun to ready.(in my case ). But i will make it old way.I just try to focus more about story but i got to tell you ( much work with dictionary and i'm not able to translate it the way i would like to).I will try to do better next fights. |
| barrel_master10-20-03, 06:44 PM | I asked Moh if I could run 1 fight... that makes my limit fine. |
| LLMadCow10-20-03, 07:20 PM | My friends and fellow gladiators, I have returned. I have had a hectic week, but I am doing better. If the fight has not been reassigned, I will be running a fight tomorrow. At the bare minimum, I will post the limited results of winner and expended items. I will follow up ASAP with the entire fight. In regard to the first fight I ran - I corrected some info that I had made mistakes on, although not on the boards, and the results were the same, it just took until round 24. So, there you have it. I will do my best to pay closer attention to the details, as this is what Optimization is all about. Lastly - Allister. I need a FINAL RULING. Can I use Augment Summoning on a bought scroll? Or can I at least use it on a scroll I MADE? If I cannot augment a scrol someone else made, then I shuld be able to make one myself that would be fine, right? For the future, I will have to make some record keeping sheets to better follow whatever fight I am running. Buffs and Rebuffs and and spells with effect times, WOW. I had no idea that the fight would take as long as it did and would be that tough. I look forward to this next week. |
| Tellish_of_Ket10-20-03, 07:27 PM | I don't think that's really fair at all, that the characters should be put back. Some ppl got to have their tactics re-sent to another moderator while others, like me, are left out in the cold. Not one of my fights was moderated in the last two weeks. Tellish |
| LLMadCow10-20-03, 07:35 PM | The fight I ran between Xaver and Curunigur 1. I was copying and pasting and forgot to edit the final round. 2. I made a mistake on AC; as I told Mo in AIM, I ran the extended fight. It lasted 24 rounds, but had the same outcome. The fight came down to the AC bonuses from rebuffing vs the penalties of RS. Sorry Mo. 3. I am going to stick to my posting, but I will do my best to better keep track of all buffs and stats. LL |
| LLMadCow10-20-03, 07:38 PM | Tellish_of_Ket Not one of my fights was moderated in the last two weeks. If the fights are not reassigned, I WILL be running your fight tomorrow. I understand your disappointment. My Druid did not get ran, but part of that is my fault, and part of that is rules issues that need to be finalized... |
| Magagumo10-20-03, 07:45 PM | To answer your question, LLMadcow, you cannot apply Augment Summoning to creatures you summon with any scroll, made by you or otherwise. I recommend sticking to casting them yourself, but I do know summons can be good, regardless. |
| Caterane10-20-03, 07:51 PM | Tomar vs Allister (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1627462#post1627462) I wrote the introduction a few days ago and the real fight now at two o`clock in the morning. You`ll notice the difference. Good night Cat |
| barrel_master10-20-03, 07:58 PM | I've made one of my dudes inactive... I just realized that I'm fairly busy this week but if you need another mod I'm in... |
| MotherBast10-20-03, 08:08 PM | Hello. I'm a long time player and long time reader on these boards, espically the old Min/Max boards. I recently made the conversion the 3.5 and I'm looking to test my skills and Game knowledge. I have read through your threads and I am intrested in joining your arena as both player and moderator. I have DM'ed for almost 10 years, and I feel after reading all of the fight that have come before I can help with your Moderator needs. I also have Weekends off work, and plenty of time to run fights as my gaming group recently broke up. If your still intrested in accepting new players/moderators let me know and I will post a build on the gladatiors thread, or two builds if I'll be allowed.... |
| fluiddragon10-20-03, 08:09 PM | I'll post my fight tomorow I'm sorry about the dely. I worked over 80 hrs last week, and worked all 7 days, with 5am wake ups everyday but sunday. Due to my schedule this week I won't be updating my characters, they will be marked unready, and won't be able to mod another fight other than the 2nd one I was given last week. I'm just going to post a round by round and results. If someone else has the time and wants to run it with more flavor let me know. It seems like everybody is busy this week! -FD |
| SnarkHunter10-20-03, 08:32 PM | 80 hours, holy cats! I to am busy and have recently embarked on a program to become moreso. Le sigh. But I can still run fights, and I shall. Not yours Fluid...but perhaps Mother can? 10 years experiance, thats certainly heartining. |
| MotherBast10-20-03, 09:06 PM | I would be happy to Mod a fight or two as soon as this weekend, as soon as I know if my entrence into the arena is approved..... also, where would i go to post my email adress to receive tactics, and where do i find the adresses to send tactics too? didn't notice address on any of the threads, but I must admit, I have only been reading them for 2 days and skimed a great deal. Edited for grammer |
| sloisel10-20-03, 10:29 PM | I was away for the weekend. I've made Trom the Blue inactive so that I now have only one active character. Thanks, Sébastien Loisel |
| LLMadCow10-21-03, 02:38 AM | Thanks Cat. Nothing like what the character was intended to be used as, but on the up side at least I didn't use any equipment. :) Oh, I also find it amazing that Connal managed to summon so much ... that's how I knew no scrolls were used. |
| Caterane10-21-03, 02:53 AM | Sorry LL, but you didn`t send me any tactics nor did you write something in your sheet. As for the story I was absolutely tired and just wanted to finish it which is sad because I had a really cool story in mind (involving the gnomish workmen). This shows that my decision to set out a few weeks is a necesity. But let me introduce my successor: Mooooootherblast!!! @Motherbast: Greetings. Just post your eMail adress here and substitute the @ with (at). It will be added to the roster. Same goes for all things: this is the place to write it. Your characters go to the gladiators thread though. |
| Moherajikuyx10-21-03, 04:53 AM | Very good! All hail the new moderator! Welcome MB. Missing fights: Level 2 Hurtz, Tellish_of_Ket vs. Lucient Noctern, Magagumo: fluiddragon Kelek, Tellish_of_Ket vs. Jorge de Berniers, SnarkHunter: LLMadCow Mara ThunderStorm, Galamdring vs. Lacelar, Eschaton: Tellish Level 3 Bruno Wilikens, Magagumo vs. The Harvester, Caterane: Imizael Jindl, I noticed that the moderators with these rules still aren't enough (13 fights moderated, 31 characters). I fear moderators will have to have as much characters as fights ran, not one more. |
| LLMadCow10-21-03, 08:33 AM | Something occurred to me that might make things more interesting in the arena. The gold listing by level is supposed to reflect an amount of gold the character would have spent on non expendable items. The character is assumed to have spent money on expendable items, but a portion is assumed to have been spent on permament items. So, what if from now on, we listed gold in a new way. Give characters the listed gold as pemament items only, and a level by level allowance of 20% of the gold that would be for repairing items and purchasin expendale items? I do agree that we need to have a concensus on what we are working towards as for the arena. If I poiso a character and he takes Permament CON damage, is it gone forever? That would suck, but is currently possible. Sundering really expensive items is possible. What if this happens. Next fight Lothar wins, he spends the remaining rounds of the opponent dying (-1 to -10) and sunders everything he can manage to get ahold of. Familiars, weapons, armor, potions, scrolls, mounts (Yes, he'd sunder the mount), etc. Saves become moot since the PC is out cold. What we turn into is a see how much damage we can wreak, not only for combat purposes, but in the long run. If I cause a person a lot of monetary damage, then I cause them to be at an unfair disadvantage when they fight some other PC. Damage physical gets repaired. Why not let damage monetary get repaired. I say 100% gold per level + a specific pool of 20% extra, tracked with a listing of what has been used, for expendable items. This encourages equal footing. If you did not want to have to worry about tracking what is there, then you could simply establish that for every fight we allow a 20% pot that the characters can pick, and the pot replenishes. Either way, it is worth a look... |
| LLMadCow10-21-03, 08:43 AM | @Cat - I am bothered because there has been hotly debated issues with regard to Augment Summoning and I feel that I have gotten the short end of the stick and my character was obviously not intended to be in melee combat in any way, shape, or form. That is the ONLY reason I have held off, and in some ways my character was incomplete due to lack of information. If you had said - 1 day warning, submit tactics, AS does not count for scrolls - I would have sent my final tactics... |
| Jindl10-21-03, 08:56 AM | Mo - Bruno Wilikens, Magagumo vs. The Harvester, Caterane: Imizael has been posted. I ran the fight because Imizael was out of contact. It was posted a couple of days ago... This week the # moderators vs the # of fights will be pretty close, but I think we can get it to work out , now that Motherblast may be joining the mod's. We'll see when you do pairings (and if necessary I'll take an extra fight.) -Jindl FYI: LLMadCow - Allister requires a handle animal of +10 to train his companion (you only have a +9...) I suggest buying m.w. handle animal tools like Jindl did. Also regarding augment summoning scrolls: I wish the decision had gone otherwise (my druid could benefit too) but since it didn't, we roll with the punches. Druids still rock, btw (unless they face paladins ;) ) |
| LLMadCow10-21-03, 09:38 AM | Quote by Jindl Allister requires a handle animal of +10 to train his companion (you only have a +9...) I suggest buying m.w. handle animal tools like Jindl did. Quote from Allister's Character Posting (with DC listed) Tricks: 2 + 6 Handle Animal 1. Attack - Free as druid. 2. Defend - Free as druid. 3. Come - DC 15 4. Down - DC 15 5. Heel - DC 15 6. Stay - DC 15 7. Fetch - DC 15 8. Perform - DC 15 Handle Animal - Teaching an animal a trick has a DC of 15 or 20. The bonus tricks have no DC, since they are part of the bonus effects from being with a druid. Attack and Defend WOULD HAVE required a 20, but they are the tricks that I chose to get for free. And, just for purposes of the math Handle Animal 5 + Animal Companion Modifier 4 + Take 10 = 19 vs DC 15. It's all good. Trust me...:cool: |
| Tellish_of_Ket10-21-03, 09:50 AM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Very good! All hail the new moderator! Welcome MB. Missing fights: Level 2 Mara ThunderStorm, Galamdring vs. Lacelar, Eschaton: Tellish I didn't realize i was moderatinga second fight. I've never recieved any tactics from the above so it never dawned on me. By all means, please send me the tactics and it shall be run asap. raymondlendt at hotmail dot com. Tellish |
| Moherajikuyx10-21-03, 10:43 AM | Sorry J! Missing fights: Level 2 Hurtz, Tellish_of_Ket vs. Lucient Noctern, Magagumo: fluiddragon Kelek, Tellish_of_Ket vs. Jorge de Berniers, SnarkHunter: LLMadCow Mara ThunderStorm, Galamdring vs. Lacelar, Eschaton: Tellish Thanks to all the moderators: these two weeks have been enjoyable! I look forward for the last fights... :) |
| Moherajikuyx10-21-03, 11:21 AM | LL, I don't like that idea too much. I prefer to keep the rules as simple as possible, for various reasons. If we give more gold to everyone the results will not change that much. I think that the rules now reflect better the situation in the campaign. Consider that you have a fixed amount of wealth in a campaign: you don't have an endless supply of expendable items. Also, the treasure has to be transported to city and sold, this lowers its quantity and value. Enemies of course try to kill you and loot you, not to destroy your stuff. This is why we're not allowing people to do the dirty sundering trick, and why we're giving free repairs. Another, different point. Allowing people to lose items make them better enjoy their characters, because it's part of the characters' history. Consider Rito Maya. He's already lost 6 fights but I'm not going to retreat him, because I'm enjoying the fact that thanks to him I learned from my errors. I don't want my errors to be deleted. And he's a cool character as is, even though with a potion of fly he would destroy everyone :) Finally, your method would prevent people to buy costly potions. This is an hazard, and people like hazards :) Anyways, if anyone else is of your opinion, I'll open the poll for sure. |
| LLMadCow10-21-03, 12:08 PM | Quote by Moherajikuyx Enemies of course try to kill you and loot you, not to destroy your stuff. This is why we're not allowing people to do the dirty sundering trick, and why we're giving free repairs. I tend to disagree. Lowly bandits may try to simply kill and loot you. However, more intelligent enemies may try to disable you. I have run battles where the enemies did sunder everything under the sun, well one particular enemy did, and the party was quickly up a creek. When the Paldin and Fighter realized that their armor was cut in half, they were quick to call a retreat. What I am after is the issue of wasting gold. The arena tournament should be about character build strategy more than shopping strategy. This is why we allow the upgrade of weapons and armor. Repair items then, but also replace anything that was not intentionally used up. So, anything that is damaged by an opponent should be repaired but anything used up or destroyed through character incompetence is gone? I'd go for this... I still think it would be reasonable to allow an expendable item fund of 20% per level... |
| LLMadCow10-21-03, 12:10 PM | Boredom and clarity forced me to post this list. What follows is a listing of ALL playable races in the arena Standard Races Human ~ 1 extra feat, 4 extra skill points at 1st and 1 per level. Dwarf (Hill Dwarf) ~ +2 Con, -2 Cha, Bonus to misc saves. Elf ~ +2 Dex, -2 Con, Sleep Immunity, Bonus to misc skill checks. Gnome ~ +2 Con, -2 str, AC +1, Att +1, Bonus to misc skills and Illusions. Half-elf ~ Sleep Immunity, Bonus to misc skills. Half-orc ~ +2 Str, -2 Int, -2 Cha. Halfling ~ +2 Dex, -2 Str, AC +1, Att +1, Bonus to misc skills, +1 all saves. SubRaces Deep Dwarf ~ LA +0, as Standard Dwarf with better saves. Gray Dwarf (Duergar) ~ LA +1, +2 Con, -4 Cha, Bonus to misc skills and saves, Spell-Like abilities. Mountain Dwarf ~ LA +0, as Standard Dwarf. Aquatic Elf ~ LA +0, as Standard Elf, except +2 Dex, -2 Int, Grey Elf ~ LA +0, as Standard Elf except +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Con, -2 Str. Wild Elf ~ LA +0, as Standard Elf except +2 Dex, -2 Int (Replaces Standard Bonuses) Wood Elf ~ LA +0, as Standard Elf except +2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con, -2 Int. Monster Races Goblin ~ LA +0, Kobold ~ LA +0, Orc ~ LA +0, Aasimar ~ LA +1, +2 Wis, +2 Cha, Bonus to misc Skills, Daylight. Gnoll ~LA +1, Hobgoblin ~ LA +1, Merfolk ~LA +1, Tiefling ~ LA +1, +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Cha, Bonus to misc skills, Darkness, Resistances: +5 Cold, Electricity and Fire. (To be completed later, I have to dash out the door) |
| Caterane10-21-03, 01:19 PM | @LL: Huh? Augment summoning on scrolls??? Where did you pick this up? In no way does it affect scrolls. You had 2 weeks time, I told you twice to send me tactics, and nothing was written in your sheet. How am I supposed to know what your character acts like? @Mo: I would suggest to update the roster now and consider outstanding fights as "didn`t fight". Tomorow`s pairings day. |
| SnarkHunter10-21-03, 02:54 PM | Aye, do the roster now, and if anyone gets a fight done under the wire as it is before pairings then you can reflect that then. LL: Now I'd always imagined equipment managment was a fundamental part of the arena. Same for careful tactic suggestions and build strategies. Without penalties for incompetent use of expendebles there would be no encouragment for people to develop more useful strategies. That and it's more complicated. |
| Jindl10-21-03, 03:04 PM | LLMadcow - Thanks for clearing up the handle animal thing... I couldn't tell which tricks were bonus and which Allister had to train. LLMadcow - The current rule, AFAIK, is that any equipment destroyed (either Sundered, disenchanted, disjoined, warped, etc.) during the fight is freely repaired. Allies (including constructs and intelligent items) are not freely repaired. Items that the owner uses (scrolls, wands, etc) are also not freely replaced. I think you said that you would be fine with this in your earlier post. LLMadcow - Good work on the list. If you check the builds thread, you'll see that in the arena rules section, Mo has made a link to a similar post I made regarding playable races. Although, my earlier list may be incomplete... Btw, thanks for your help, as I based my earlier post on work you had done when we were discussing lighting conditions... I agree with Cat about putting the unfinished fights back into the pool. I'm sorry if people's characters didn't get run, but please realize that I'm in the same boat (2 of my characters have now sat out 2 weeks, I don't want to make it a third.) As for the expendable item replacement fund, I am totally against that idea. Enough fights are already being decided by the use of expendable magic items. At least there is currently a penalty (less gold later...) for using these strategies. I really don't think its a good idea to reduce the cost to replace expendable items. For example: Its fine that a 2nd level character won the fight by using a 4th level scroll. It cost him 700 gp and that will slow his growth as he progresses to 3rd,4th and 5th level. But if we reimburse that character for the money spent on that scroll, then duels will no longer be character vs character. It will become costly expendable item vs costly expendable item. This is bad. I know that characters are supposed to have a certain level of wealth at each character level. But this arena is not set up that way, and we never intended it to be. What is intended is for players to use careful money management while developing their characters. That is important and is part of the strategy in the arena. I see no reason to change this aspect of our game. -Jindl |
| LLMadCow10-21-03, 03:41 PM | Okay, so if equipment has been sundered, and should have been repaired for free, do I get gold back for the cost I spent to have the items repaired? Lothar had a masterwork Great Axe sundered, as well as his back up axe. At the time I had to pay 1/2 cost to have them repaired, and could not afford to have the Masterwork made into magical +1 (as per the standing upgrade rule) and this cost me. You may feel that it had no impact, and it had none on the last battle, however gold expenditure would have been different had that gold be there for the spending. Tactics for the battle would have been different as well. At the time it occurred, I asked questions about this. My questions are part of what led to the comments in the rule section of items being repaired at 1/2 cost and magical items at 2/3 cost. This is why I try to verify things. Quote by Jindl I think that we should allow repairs to be made at the same price that it would cost to craft the item. So repairs could be made at 2/3 price for magic weapons/armor/items. And repairs could be made at 1/2 price for non magic items. Another quote by Jindl The current rule, AFAIK, is that any equipment destroyed (either Sundered, disenchanted, disjoined, warped, etc.) during the fight is freely repaired. Clarity and solid decisions. This is what I am seeking. The polls board should be for making decisions and we should stick to them. In similar thought to things being repaired and people brought back, would doing premament stats damage be pointless? I asume as much... |
| Jindl10-21-03, 03:56 PM | I think you should get back the money Lothar spent to have his stuff repaired. How much gp is it? (Like 160 or so?) Also, the rule about cost to repair had changed in the last 2 weeks (presumably while you were "away"). The free repairs just started during this round of pairings. But I think it should be retroactive to include Lothar, especially since he is the only character to have ever had anything sundered/broken... I don't think anyone should have a problem with reimbursing the 160-ish gold Lothar spent to repair his weapons. As for ability damage, my understanding is that characters are restored to full health after the fights, which means: 1. True resurrected to full hp. 2. All curses/magical effects removed. 3. All ability damage/drain restored. Basically they are restored to the condition they were in before the fight minus any expendable items or dead allies. I hope this is clear. -Jindl As for doing permanant stat damage being pointless, if it helps you win that fight it was not pointless. The reason it is healed is that this game is about winning each particular fight, not about ending characters careers by doing permanent stat damage, destroying all their stuff, etc. Stat damage can still be very effective (especially when used against casters or when used to drop someones feat prereqs...I'm still waiting on someone to do Int damage to Alathar Vierce, preventing him from using Imp. Trip...oh well, Jindl has a Contagion spell memorized for him, if he ever gets the chance :devil:...) |
| Magagumo10-21-03, 04:03 PM | I agree that Lothar should be reimbursed, no reason to cripple a player due to changing rules. Also, I would just like to applaud the decision to restore characters to perfect health after a fight... too much fun with Blindness/Deafness could make Bruno a very hated person on this board otherwise.. ;) Hehe.. sweet, sweet Poison.... eh Jindl? |
| Imizael10-21-03, 05:17 PM | doeas the rule about imporoving magic items apply to woundrus items ? exp if i make cap of int + 2 do i have to sale it for 1/2 price and then pay whole cast or i can substract cost of +2 from cap of int +4 ? plz for quick answer couse its importand for my next fight |
| MotherBast10-21-03, 06:20 PM | sorry to have taken so long to reply, ive been at work all day, then I had to catch Buffy on FX.... i mean, er.... I had to play everquest.... yeah.... that..... Anyway, moving on, I'd be glad to Mod a couple of fights this weekend. I assume I begin with the level 2 stuff.... not a prob for me. Also, since I am assuming I'm excepted now, I'll be posting my first gladiator soon.... (as a Mod ill get 2 right..... very important, cause I plan to post a pure bard, and I also wana post a fighter that might actually win). And as the new guy, my opinion prolly caries little weight, but I have enjoyed reading how money has affected everyones tactics, and I would suggest not changing the way you work it..... Besides, the book also assumes your using expendable items over the course of 13.3 fights per level..... its possible to fight as little as 1 fight per level in the arena, so I don't think the expendable item thing is that big a difference. Oh, and Mo, Rito is my favorit fighter, I root for him every time. I love his style. He always seems to loose when hes right on the verge of victory. Despite his record he's the kind of fighter everyone worries about when they draw him.... I hope you don't mind, but if I enter my second fighter, It will also be a grappling monk, but I promise it isent gona be a clone. |
| Galamdring10-21-03, 06:31 PM | I don't believe this... Why haven't you said anything sooner... I have sent you my tactics for Mara, ThunderStorm, last week... I sent them to the e-mail you had on the pairings thread... Now i have to redo everything in a short time and even so, w4e might not have time to update for the next round... :mad: GGGGRRRRRRRR |
| MotherBast10-21-03, 07:06 PM | Ok, my Bard is posted, could someone check it for errors plz? I went over it twice but I may have missed something, and my spelling is horrible, er.... horable, horrorable...... bah, you get the idea. Edit: adding my email address which is Motherbast(at)yahoo.com |
| LLMadCow10-21-03, 07:29 PM | Please DO NOT list Lothar the Orc or Allister Swiftfoot among the characters for this weeks battles. I will be unable to run any combat and I will also be unable to calculate anything for arena purposes, such as figuring tactics. I apologize for the short notice. Tellesh and Snark - I owe you one. More to follow later as I can. Ciao. |
| sloisel10-21-03, 07:49 PM | Originally posted by LLMadCow Gnoll ~LA +1, [/B] AFAICT, gnolls aren't legitimate in the arena. They start with 2HD and add a +1 LA, which makes them ECL 3. |
| Jindl10-21-03, 07:52 PM | Originally posted by MotherBast Ok, my Bard is posted, could someone check it for errors plz? I went over it twice but I may have missed something, and my spelling is horrible, er.... horable, horrorable...... bah, you get the idea. Cool character. But one problem. (Something I discovered as a druid). A scroll cost is based on what it would cost if made by a character of your class. For my druid, that means dispel magic is treated as a 4th level spell from a 7th level caster. For your bard, cure light wounds is a 1st level spell from a 2nd level caster = 50 gp per scroll. Same goes with sleep. So your scrolls should cost twice as much. Just to be clear, the reason they must use a 2nd level caster is because that is the minimun level needed for a bard to cast these spells. Good luck! -Jindl |
| MotherBast10-21-03, 07:54 PM | Your right, I'll edit now, thanks. |
| MotherBast10-21-03, 08:25 PM | Ok, now I assumed I got 2 characters, so I posted my orc monk also if anyone wants to check it. As for the scroll prices, i changed them and corrected my gold, but just for my education, could I not have specified I wanted Level 1 versions of these spells, crafted by wizards, and still used them do to the spells appearing on my list? |
| Tellish_of_Ket10-21-03, 08:26 PM | Please, galamdring and eschaton send me ur tactics, i can run the fight before tomorrow. LL, you're spending an aweful lot of time posting, and in all that time i'm sure you could have run the one fight ur missing. I've sat out for three weeks. Not one of my characters have been moderated, and i'm moderating. Whatever man. I'll moderate this wednesday, and i'll see where it goes from there. Tellish |
| Jindl10-21-03, 08:29 PM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket I've sat out for three weeks. Not one of my characters have been moderated, and i'm moderating. Don't think you're the only one... |
| MotherBast10-21-03, 08:41 PM | I hate to keep posting like this, but can someone e-mail me the arena in a word format maybe, I can't make it print right. |
| Madhattr10-21-03, 10:42 PM | Scrolls even those you do not create are affected by augment summoning and Spell Focus and Improved spell focus. I've gone over this before in the thread the rule is VERY clear. If anyone has any questions on this just PM me and I'll tell you the exact words and page number and all relevant arguments to both sides. -madhattr |
| Magagumo10-21-03, 11:15 PM | You do not ned to sell items to get better ones, they can simply be upgraded by expending cash equal to the difference in costs (ie 16k [+4] - 4k [+2] = 12k needed to upgrade) |
| Moherajikuyx10-22-03, 04:13 AM | Tough luck Tellish! I'll do one of your characters myself next week. Don't wait anymore to do that fight, Galamdring shall have sent you the tactics already, the other one isn't around from 20 days. I'll wait till this evening (EU), then I'll finish with the roster and post the pairings. Unfinished ones will get the didn't fight. See Ya! |
| Moherajikuyx10-22-03, 04:16 AM | Madhattr you're wrong, this thing is over. Clear? I hope you consider the word of a game designer enough. Check out at Andy Collins' site. |
| Pitlords10-22-03, 04:27 AM | barrel_master, post your email address if you want to become a moderator. People, I'm updating the roster. Look at the number of fights; it's likely that some moderators will have to do more than the suggested number of fights. I'm thinking about writing the number of fights everyone does, to give him credit the week after. |
| Caterane10-22-03, 07:22 AM | @Mo: Can`t let the Harvester sit out so gimme a fight to moderate Have to buy more coffee though :whatsthis |
| Galamdring10-22-03, 09:15 AM | I have sent my tactics a few moments ago to the email address you mentioned on these boards... Please confirm that you have received them... Have fun running the fight... Galamdring |
| Moherajikuyx10-22-03, 10:08 AM | Cat - 1 fight for you! :) All the moderators - check out if the number of fights in the gladiators' thread is correct. |
| barrel_master10-22-03, 11:43 AM | Pitlords >> master_hojunma (at) hotmail.com |
| Moherajikuyx10-22-03, 11:44 AM | Well, LL messaged me that he ran his last fight but he's going to post it tomorrow. I think it's worthy to wait another day, at this point. *edit* barrel_master added! |
| MotherBast10-22-03, 11:48 AM | If you dont have enough Mods, I would be willing to do a third fight, and id run one on each friday, saterday and sunday night, but as this will be my first time Moding, I dont wana overstep my limits. I'm sure I can handel running one fight a night though. Edit: oh, and I still need someone to email me the arena so I can print it, if anyone has it in a word format or someting similar. |
| MotherBast10-22-03, 12:09 PM | About Wolf's Dwarven Bard..... the U.M.D. and spellcraft skills are both listed at +13. I see 5 ranks, 2 Int, and 2 for magic adept, for a total of 9 by my math. Where are the other 4 points in these skills comming from wolf? |
| SnarkHunter10-22-03, 12:31 PM | UMD is actually Charisma based but yeah it looks a little off, unless he's just putting in the synergy bonus for scrolls or some such. |
| Jindl10-22-03, 12:42 PM | I think Snark's right, he's included the +2 synergy from decipher script and the +2 synergy from spellcraft onto his UMD, and the +2 synergy from decipher script and +2 synergy from knowledge (Arcana) onto his spellcraft. Unfortunately, the synergy bonuses from decipher script and spellcraft only apply when dealing with scrolls. (The synergy from knowledge-arcana applies all the time.) This should be shown on the character sheet by listing it as such: UseMagicDevice +9 (+13 for scrolls) Spellcraft +11 (+13 for scrolls) Also, bards are not proficient in martial weapons, therefore the dwarven waraxe suffers a -4 nonproficiency penalty...and should be a -2 attack instead of a +2 attack. Also, the grapple should be +2 (+1 base, +1 str). -Jindl ***EDIT*** Mo- Please add my cleric, Diana, to the roster, and mark all 4 of my characters as [OK]. Thanks! |
| WolfWings10-22-03, 02:26 PM | Thanks, I missed the grapple when I shifted 2 points from Dex into Strength, and I completely forgot, Bard... no DWaraxe for him. *laughs* My mistake on that one. Both are fixed, replaced with a Longsword for simple drop-on replacement usage. Changed the UMD/Spellcraft bit as requested, since they're there only to let him use over-leveled scrolls from other classes, such as his one-in-three chance at a first-initiative fireball, he's never going to be buying wands or similair. Surprised that few problems were found, honestly. Can someone glance over the Tactics area? I think I worked out the pairings of standard/move action properly, merging in free actions as feasable. Each new line is a new 'round' in there, but I may have mis-calculated in trying to build that up. Man, s'hard to work in spellcraft in combat. =^.^= If there's no problems, can someone mark the characters as [OK], and if my tactics block survives relatively unscathed, and people don't mind, I'm more than willing to help Moderate a fight or two. |
| SnarkHunter10-22-03, 03:13 PM | Bilo and Moon moon updated. Jorge hasn't changed yet... Oh and Mother I e-mailed you the code arena. If anyone else wants it let me know! |
| Moherajikuyx10-22-03, 03:54 PM | We're groing! :) WolfWings I didn't welcome you and you're a mod already! Post here your email before though. Welcome BTW! :angel: |
| WolfWings10-22-03, 04:48 PM | wolfwngs@changa.nu And thank you very much. Hope I'll be able to help out. =^.^= |
| Magagumo10-22-03, 05:09 PM | Bruno's all set, Ander remains unchanged, and Lucient has suffered from a glitch in the timestream, causing his fight to actually occur two weeks after the judges planned it ^_~ |
| MotherBast10-22-03, 05:17 PM | Thanks snark for the arena map, and the fight layout, both will help me greatly. I'm eager to run my first fight, can't wait. I hope I can do the characters justice. Of course, moreso I hope my characters win. Both of my characters are ready, unless I missed anything, but I don't think I have. At last I'm gona get to knock the dust off of my books and break out my new dice.... been waiting to use them ever since Dragon Con. |
| Imizael10-22-03, 05:34 PM | I got 3 pc so i should have 2 fights btw: they are all ready to fight ! |
| Kukanil10-22-03, 06:07 PM | When was the [Ready] tags for chars last updated? Mines been ready for a few days now. |
| Tellish_of_Ket10-22-03, 06:15 PM | Ok, Mara VS. Lacelar has been posted. Thanks Galamdring for your prompt reply in sending ur tactics. Lacelar had default tactics so i used those instead. Enjoy the reading. It wasn't that long of a fight. Tellish |
| Jindl10-22-03, 06:35 PM | Good fight, Tellish. 3 things for future reference: 1. Mara has a +1 BAB and no quickdraw feat. Therefore she can't drop the halberd (free action), draw the bow (move action that can be combined with a normal move) and run (full round action) all in the same round. 2. Casting from a scroll that's higher level than what you can do (like a sorc 2 using a scroll of scorching ray) requires a caster level check (in this case 1d20+2 vs DC 1+caster level of a sorc to cast this spell, ie. 4 .... so 1d20+2 vs DC 5 (total) probably succeeds, but hey, there's a small chance of failure...) 3. Readied actions can interrupt spellcasting, so Mara could have heard+pinpointed the spellcasting (its Listen DC 0...) and then fired her ready action to interrupt him. If she hit, he would have to make a concentration check or lose the spell. Of course, this probably had no bearing on the outcome of the fight... but just for future reference. |
| WolfWings10-22-03, 07:27 PM | I take it that means Ralin won't get into this week's fights? Argh, I worked for a few hours last night to try to get him in in time. Be a royal pisser if just having to switch the Waraxe for a Longsword and correct a typo means I miss this week. =^.6= |
| Jindl10-22-03, 08:20 PM | Wolfwings - its cool. Moherajikuyx hasn't updated the roster or done the pairings yet. Your character will be in for this week. |
| WolfWings10-22-03, 08:22 PM | Ah, okay. The 'last updated' mark on the Roster listing was today, was why I was wondering. :-) |
| MotherBast10-22-03, 08:33 PM | Just going over my builds and I realized that I should have had a 16 dex on Brackin.... 10 points on str +2 race, 10 points dex, 2 points con, 4 points Int -2 race, 10 points Wis, and 0 points Cha = 36 points, and dex should have been 16. I'm about to edit, and since no fight list is on the board yet, I assume he will still be ellagable for fights this weekend, correct? Edit: Actually, I wound up going 15 in dex to get to 12 in con, and just added 2 hps..... this will work out much better when I reach level 4. |
| fluiddragon10-22-03, 08:43 PM | I'm in the middle of runing Hurtz and Lucent's lvl 2 match now sorry bout the delay post coming soon. -fd |
| Magagumo10-22-03, 09:43 PM | One note for the Tomar vs. Alllister fight: As bat swarms are composed of thousands of tiny creatures, they can't actually be harmed by weapons. Only a torch or area effect spells (go fireballs!) will get rid of these nasty pests. In this battle, the bat swarm would not have dropped Tomar before Allister lost, so i would not worry about it. Just things to know for next time! ^_^ Thank you fluiddragon! |
| fluiddragon10-22-03, 09:45 PM | Lucient the Risen won the fight due to initative and nailing the stunning fist on the first hit, and criting on the 2nd. After Hurtz got hit the first time he could do nothing to stop the onslought. Time permitting I'll add soem detail to this brutal match. -fd |
| WolfWings10-22-03, 10:17 PM | Originally posted by Magagumo Only a torch or area effect spells (go fireballs!) will get rid of these nasty pests. *prays for UMD and tonnes of Synergy to pay off* *needs to build a secondary character JUST to play with UMD all day long with a Longbow* |
| sloisel10-23-03, 12:13 AM | Just in case I need to say it here, Buttmunch is ready for battle. Sébastien Loisel |
| barrel_master10-23-03, 12:13 AM | Just a note... it turns out that I have time to mod the 2 fights but it will probably won't happent till this sunday... if you dudes don't mind waiting... also... I've noticed that even though I'm scheduled to run 2 fights neither of my 2 chars are 'okay'... |
| Imizael10-23-03, 06:04 AM | uff I'm glad that Mo didn't make pairing so far. I just noticed that crafting headband of intelect requirers CL 8 ;) |
| WolfWings10-23-03, 07:03 AM | Originally posted by Imizael uff I'm glad that Mo didn't make pairing so far. I just noticed that crafting headband of intelect requirers CL 8 ;) Actually, as I found out (and verified in the FAQs here on Wizards.com) recently, the CLs listed for various items are actually recommendations, and the minimal level needed to cast the required spells. It's buried, but the DMG specifically states that the CLs aren't requirements, interestingly enough, only the minimal level needed to cast the spell for the most appropriate class. (I.E. Wizard/Cleric) As an example, a Bard of high enough level to get the appropriate feat can use UMD and purchased scrolls each day to work on a magical item. So expect to blow a boatload of money on scrolls, but it can work. Rogues are less feasable, since they don't get the CL requirements to gain the Craft feats. But yeah, pick up Skill Focus (UMD) and load up on Synergy Bonuses, starting at 3rd level with 18 Charisma you can fire off a wand or staff all the time except on a natural roll of 1. Pick up a bunch of 1-charge wand or staff items, and use those for the crafting period as needed. Anyways... so long as you have some way of casting the spells needed for the item, that's all you actually need. =^.^= |
| Tellish_of_Ket10-23-03, 08:11 AM | @ Jindle Sorry, i wasn't aware i did the whole run with the bow thing in the same round. A caster level check was made for the first scroll used (not included in fight) and meant to for the others. I was doing the fight and cooking dinner at same time, slipped my mind is all, must have gotten side-tracked. And i did make the listen check to interrupt the casting...i really thought i included that in the fight. I'll have to double check. Hurtz bites the bullet again. :( No kit, no money, just a broken fighter. Just my luck i'll fight a sunderer in my next match. lol Just a quick note on my fight with Lucient, it was supposed to read enters with shield and scimitar. My mistake i guess and with expertise would have given me 20 ac. It would have made a difference...but oh well. Ya know, i gave him good saves and he's never once made a saving throw? Yet some ppl make like 10 in a row. grr. Also i've gone back to look at my old fights and i have something like almost 20 attack rolls and not a single hit. *begins to think something suspicious is going on* :p Tellish |
| fluiddragon10-23-03, 08:55 AM | Hurtz just suffered from some bad rolls. The stun is what did him in. You didn't have a chance to back of and use the healing potion. Your oponent spent 450gp to beat you. You spent nothing. So at least it cost him! -fd |
| fluiddragon10-23-03, 08:57 AM | Just a note I don't have time to level up Xaver this week and he's not ready, nor run any fights. I'll be back next week. -fd |
| LLMadCow10-23-03, 12:24 PM | Kelek vs Jorge posted with the bare minimum. More to follow. If you need me to run a fight this week, I can but it will not be until Sunday night, to be posted Monday morning. If I do run a fight, I would like to see at least one of my combatants fight. If both can cool - the only thing is I most likely would not be able to e-mail tactics until Friday night. Thanks gang. |
| Moherajikuyx10-23-03, 12:31 PM | Good job guys! Thanks all, I'm now updating everything. |
| Jindl10-23-03, 12:59 PM | Updating everything - whew, that's going to be quite some work. I don't envy you that job, Mo! While your at it, how about going ahead and changing the rules for repair stuff (since it seemed to be a pretty strong consesus on the polling thread). And go ahead and remove piwi from the moderators emails list... Whew thats going to be a lot of work... Good luck! -Jindl |
| Magagumo10-23-03, 01:39 PM | Hehe, yes.. Lucient has the expensive wins ^_^;. I probably coud have foregone bull's strength, but that would have resulted in low damage. I hope to start making those tanglefoot ranged touches soon, hopefully a +6 to the roll will be enough :). One day he won't expend massive amounts of cash to win.. one day. Also, Hurtz is still only 2nd level... just rename him and refill your 1k gold supply, Tellish. I was planning on doing so with Lucient after he lost to the merfolk, it just turned out that he was mismade, and needed to be changed drastically anyways. Hurtz is fun, but he is crippling his own attacks with that Expertise. My suggestion would be to go major dex, and use Weapon Finesse and Combat Expertise to make him untouchable, without having to split stat points keeping both Strength and Dexterity high. The net and bolas are also good ideas, Lucient just has one of the highest touch ACs in the arena. :cool: |
| Moherajikuyx10-23-03, 02:02 PM | Uhm... I'm going to unilaterally change the rules and give me a bonus fight :D Did I forget anyone? Particularly: moderators, please check the correctness of your disponibility! |
| sloisel10-23-03, 02:08 PM | Originally posted by WolfWings Actually, as I found out (and verified in the FAQs here on Wizards.com) recently, the CLs listed for various items are actually recommendations, and the minimal level needed to cast the required spells. It's buried, but the DMG specifically states that the CLs aren't requirements, interestingly enough, only the minimal level needed to cast the spell for the most appropriate class. (I.E. Wizard/Cleric) If you could give a specific reference, I think this would help. While what you say is arguably true for 3.0 (although even the designers disagreed on that subject in 3.0), 3.5's DMG 178 says about prerequisites: "These include feats, spells and miscellaneous requirements such as level, alignment and race or kind." So I've seen it argued on the boards that in 3.5, the caster level is a requirement. The context was that if it indeed is a requirement, some of the caster level requirements are too high (for instance, a 1st level pearl of power has a caster level of 18.) At any rate, if you have precise quotes supporting your position, I'd like to see them (not just for this arena, but for the games I play in as well.) Sébastien Loisel |
| Caterane10-23-03, 02:54 PM | Just checked the Lets get ready to rumble thread but there ain`t much rumbling. Just 3 pages, no moderators and half the gladiators can be found here, too (except that Alathar was a cleric??) Hey Mo, you posted there for some time. What`s up with it? |
| Imizael10-23-03, 03:09 PM | I should run 2 fights not 3 ... |
| MotherBast10-23-03, 03:13 PM | LLMadCow, on your character Kelik, you have skill focus: Move Silently as a feat, but on your skills you list the bonus in Hide, not Move Silently..... dont know had any baring at all on any of Kelik's fights, but there ya go. And also, I offered to take 3 fights this week if needed, so you can add a fight to me. |
| WolfWings10-23-03, 03:13 PM | Originally posted by sloisel At any rate, if you have precise quotes supporting your position, I'd like to see them (not just for this arena, but for the games I play in as well.) The specifics are, as usual, open to debate in some eyes. Caster level is a requirement for some things, specifically the feats required. Also, CL is a specific requirement to obtain any given level of Enhancement tempering, I.E. +1 tempering. Special effects that 'cost' enhancement suffer the same restriction, so you do need to be 15th level to add Vorpal to a sword, but only 15th level to make a +5 Vorpal sword. The CLs for enhancement bonuses overlap, not stack. And here's where it gets interesting, the construction rules specifically state you can obtain the spells (which are what determine the CLs listed) used for magical item construction from outside sources. I.E. Scrolls, wands, a staff, or even another spellcaster. This covers most everything outside of weapons and armor, like rings, or 'universal magic items' which is most everything else. |
| Caterane10-23-03, 03:54 PM | We do not skip another week, do we? |
| Galamdring10-23-03, 04:28 PM | Greetings... I have updated my character, bringing her to 3rd level. I am not sure if it still on time to play the next round. Either way, i am confident that the new rule changes will bring a better gaming experience to us all. Cheers. |
| Moherajikuyx10-23-03, 04:37 PM | sloisel - I remember seeing that said by Andy in his forum. Don't have the time to look for it now though, sorry; I don't remember if it was 3.0 or 3.5 about. Cat - I left that thread because it was not core and I didn't like it, simple. Imi & MB - corrected I'll do the pairings tomorrow people! Hurry up with the editing!! :angel: |
| Moherajikuyx10-23-03, 05:32 PM | OK people! Everyone but Gage, fluiddragon and Just the gist, MadCowTemplate are set; fluid doesn't want to mod this week... To speed things up I do the pairings! Happy tactics to you! :angel: |
| MotherBast10-23-03, 06:11 PM | OK, I see where it lists the parings for the fights, but how do I know who will mod my fights and which fights I will mod? It dosen't seem to show this week. |
| WolfWings10-23-03, 06:31 PM | ...I'd be happy to take the top one off the stack, Hurtz (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1372050#post1372050) vs Tanya Slytounge (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1582979#post1582979), unless someone else wants to handle that one? |
| Moherajikuyx10-23-03, 06:34 PM | :twitch: The roster caring will be worth 2 fights next week! I think I satisfied everyone... FIGHT ON! ps. Motherbast, you'll run the last lvl 2 fight only if my opponent will upgrade his sheet. I hope he won't look at my equipment, but no biggie. I forgot Jindl didn't fight last week, so I took his place: I'm the other only 4 characters player. pps. This week we can go on only thanks to MB's and WW's offers of running more fights than due (thanks guys!) Next week we'll have to restrict the numbers a bit more, if there aren't other such offers. |
| MotherBast10-23-03, 08:56 PM | OK, I went ahead and coppied the character sheets of everyone who I will be running fights for, and I corrected a few errors on my versions. A couple of them are worth pointing out before you send me your tactics, as the affect either your AC or an attack bonus. While it's to late to edit your sheet, you might wanna keep the following changes in mind. Mo- Curungur's AC is 15, not 20. He has +5 dex and no armor. His FF is also 10, not 15. I assume you orrigionaly had armor on him and took it off and simply didn't change this. Snark- Jorge de Berniers's grapple is +3, not +4. 1 bab and 2 str. Madhatter- Mohandel Brenis has 21 AC, not 22. The reason being that a tower shield has a max dex mod of +2, so you loose one point of dex AC. Those are the only errors I have found that might affect gameplay. If for some reason I am mistaken, let me know and I'll readjust my copies of your sheets. |
| Tellish_of_Ket10-23-03, 09:30 PM | I tried to update my character after winning my fight, but doesn't look like it took. Is there a delay before the actual edit gets posted or do the moderators put a close on it? If that is the case i will need to upgrade my character to 3rd. I don't wanna go and re-edit it incase there's a delay in the time i edit it, and the time it get's posted for fear of double posting and wasting a lot of time. I will give it a few hrs before trying again. Well, i can't really comment on my fight, i don't know what all happened. Happy for my first win though :) To those i'm moderating, i'm copying your characters as i write this please send ur tactics asap and the fights will be run as soon as i recieve them. Tellish *edit Ok, it successfully posted |
| Madhattr10-23-03, 10:43 PM | I updated the sheet sorry about that tower shield. I didn't look at any equipment really just your will save. If you even get to me to make the AC come into play then i've probably already lost the battle. Motherblast I sent tactics by private message because my e-mail is down. thanks, -madhattr |
| Tellish_of_Ket10-23-03, 11:37 PM | Originally posted by Magagumo Hurtz is fun, but he is crippling his own attacks with that Expertise. My suggestion would be to go major dex, and use Weapon Finesse and Combat Expertise to make him untouchable, without having to split stat points keeping both Strength and Dexterity high. The net and bolas are also good ideas, Lucient just has one of the highest touch ACs in the arena. :cool: Yeah, but against the barbarian i really had no choice. It was just a matter of who rolled more 19's to hit. Turned out it was him. lol I really lost all my kit on my first fight. Used up a lot of stuff only to fail my first and only sleep save. lol otherwise, i'd still be in awesome shape. i'll run him again this week. Heck, someone has to be able to catch up to Rito in loses. May as well be him. All my tactics are sent. So far i've recieved wolfwings tactics in return. Tellish |
| SnarkHunter10-24-03, 01:30 AM | Just FYI I didn't get a chance to edit Jorge after the fight, so I'll send new equipment and modifications (grapple bonus was from Alexis-previous version-I think) along with tactics. I've already got tactics from sloisel (who's character saddly will go unnamed throughout the fight) and once again I will say the sooner I get peoples tactics the sooner I will run the fight! Now as for me sending tactics, thats another story altogether... |
| WolfWings10-24-03, 01:40 AM | ...since I'm working up a second PC to enter into this mess, while I intend to continue helping Mod fights. What's the limit on single-item cost? Specifically, can I be rather boring and buy a Masterwork Strength-18 Composite Longbow, or do I need to throw that 300gp into other stuff instead? :-) Yes, I'm trying to make a completely magic-free pure fighter/ranger type with no brains at all, just to make people burn through kit to beat him. There's always room in an arena brawl for another Aquatic Elf, right? =^.^= |
| Moherajikuyx10-24-03, 05:08 AM | WW - Well, we never assumed there was a limit. I don't think there should be either. Does anyone? Tellish - really really strange! Did it return an error of any kind? Snark, and any other who couldn't fully update a character: I suggest the moderators to accept some equipment sent by email, in such cases, only for this week, for the hurry. DON'T accept editings of the characters after the pairings, though: that's a bad habit and I want to eradicate it. |
| WolfWings10-24-03, 06:00 AM | Wait until I post my second character's build, and see what 800gp on one non-magical weapon can do. =^.^= And yes, non-magical specifically so I don't care if it gets sundered, it'll get replaced. :-) |
| Tellish_of_Ket10-24-03, 10:05 AM | Grrr Wolf, you stole my idea. haha. I was in the midst of creating just such a character. I was trying to keep it a secret though until i had the bugs worked out before posting it. :( LOL. Tellish *EDIT Just a quick question on character builds since we're on the topic. When you say 3.5 core only, does it or does it not include the builder books? So for example feats like expert tactician, quicker than the eye, etc... are out? |
| Jindl10-24-03, 11:40 AM | core 3.5 = 3.5 SRD (minus the psionics...), 3.5 PHB, 3.5 DMG, and 3.5 MM. Nothing is allowed from other supplements... Sorry. -Jindl |
| sloisel10-24-03, 11:47 AM | Originally posted by SnarkHunter ... sloisel (who's character saddly will go unnamed throughout the fight) ... If Buttmunch is too filthy a name for your virgin keyboard, you can always try Klagdenminurviishnuckatnurliike, which is Buttmunch's draconic name. :-) Sébastien Loisel |
| MotherBast10-24-03, 12:01 PM | Ok, I now have tactics for all the fighters except Snark's Jorge de Berniers and MadCowTemplate's Just the gist, who still isent updated as far as I know, so I assume that fight is off. I will run the Iron vs. Mohandel fight tonight. Also, both barrel and Tellish should now have my tactics. If you didn't get them, I prolly got your address wrong so let me know. Edit: Actually, I just checked again and Just the Gist is ready, and named, so I will run that fight also. |
| Moherajikuyx10-24-03, 12:08 PM | Check out Karse vs. Ajax... If you've got strong stomaches... I think I was fast at allowing Karse the use of a scroll; rangers have no caster level till level 4: so shall they be able to do a caster level check? No caster level is different from caster level 0. I didn't find the answer on various threads. We shall decide it for future reference. |
| Moherajikuyx10-24-03, 12:10 PM | Motherbast, LLMadCow offered to run one of your fights if you feel you've got too many. Write it here in case. |
| MotherBast10-24-03, 12:12 PM | I've got plenty of time to run all three fights. I look forward to it actually. If MadCow wants one just for the fun of it though, I'm not stingy, he can have one. If it takes one it would have to be the Jorge vs. Diana fight, as I'm running Iron vs. Mohandel today, and he is in the other. |
| sloisel10-24-03, 12:24 PM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx sloisel - I remember seeing that said by Andy in his forum. Don't have the time to look for it now though, sorry; I don't remember if it was 3.0 or 3.5 about. Well if you find it, let me know, because I didn't. I do know that Andy said something in 3.0, but I've never seen anything in 3.5. Sébastien Loisel |
| Jindl10-24-03, 02:02 PM | Moherajikuyx - There are several MAJOR ERRORS in the Karse vs Ajax fight: 1. The scent ability was handled incorrectly. According to the SRD: scent allows creatures to notice invisible/hidden oppenents at a range of 30 feet. In the fight, you had the horse notice Karse at a range of 45 feet (this is important because Karse can charge 40 feet and should have been able to charge the horse before being detected.) Second, determining direction is a move action which means in round 5 the horse cannot (determine direction after Karse moves away, move up to Karse, and attack). This is important as it denied Karse the ability to buff for 2 rounds (the first round of detection, and the round after he moved away). It also denied him the ability to make a charge attack while invisible. This has a major effect on the fight. 2. How did Ajax tell the horse to scent out an invisible foe and attack it? To search for a foe and attack it requires use of the Track and Attack tricks, and although the horse may know these tricks, did Ajax make a handle animal to tell it to do so? I don't think the horse would have done that on its own (especially since Karse had never attacked it or its rider, at least not yet.) If Ajax is unable to give the horse these commands, then this fight is TOTALLY different. 3. I put it in my tactics exactly what Karse's attack bonus was, and you still got it wrong. His attack bonus is: +3 base +6 str (raging and enlarged) +1 vs orcs +2 invisibility -1 size Large = +11 (or +13 when charging). In the fight you had his bonus at +9, and he would have hit in the first attack if you used the correct bonus. 4. Somehow you also have Karse's AC wrong: It should be 10 +5 armor +5 dex (cat's grace) +2 shield of faith = AC 22. It looks like some of the attacks later in the fight might have missed. I mentioned in my tactics that cats grace improves Karse's ac, and obviously shield of faith +2 improves AC, so I don't know how you missed this. These are some serious errors that would totally change the fight. The scent issue alone completely changes the outcome, as does the major mistakes on to hit and armor class. I'm not at all pleased about how this fight was run, especially since it is early in the day Friday, and you should have had plenty of time to make sure everything is correct. I hope you will consider fixing these errors as it is early in the weekend, but if you don't then you at least have many things to note for future reference. EDIT: I know that I have made errors on fights in the past as well. I don't expect moderators to be perfect. But I noted in my tactics what the attack bonus would be and that cat's grace would change my armor class. I can understand mistakes on vague topics (like pearls of power) or when pressed for time (like I was when trying to run Imizaels fight for him). But this fight has been done with plenty of time to spare, and these issues are not on vague topics, they have come up in fights before. It is very discouraging to me. |
| Galamdring10-24-03, 02:58 PM | I have sent Jindl my tactics for the next fight. Please confirm... :) |
| Jindl10-24-03, 03:29 PM | confirmed, I have received tactics for galamdring (and nobody else.) -jindl |
| MotherBast10-24-03, 03:35 PM | I just conducted what turned out to be a very short fight between Iron and Mohandel. I wont say who won here so you can read it in fights when I get it posted, but I will say that out of the 4 d20 rolls the winner had to make, he rolled 14, 18, 12, and 18. not much his opponit could do vs. rolls like that. Kinda takes away from the fun when the die is all one sided, but it was still fun to do. Can't wait for my next fight. Gona start writing the fight out now, should be posted in a couple of hours. (I might have to stop and watch Buffy) |
| Moherajikuyx10-24-03, 03:44 PM | Jindl - you're the worst loser on the planet. How can you complain when you were the first to heavily use animals in the arena? 1. Did you actually read the fight? Or are you complaining for the sake of complaining? Round 3: the horse moves west until at 30' from Karse, then he feels the scent: I even wrote {move action to note direction}! My "MAJOR ERROR" was to write the wrong cohordinate, but if you read the battle paying attention, you notice that the horse had a lot of movement left, and would have been inside 30' of Karse. 2. I consider both the animal and the rider to be in a battle. Thus, both will make the best use of their abilities to detect any threat. Any scent other than the master's is a threat on my opinion. Consider that during round 2, the horse moved only 40', because he wasn't sure about his task. A druid would have guided it better, for example. Did you complain about this? No. Curious! Anyways, wasn't this enough, on round 3, you casted a scroll. That's a DC 0 listen check, plus distance; both the horse and Ajax have better modifiers than that. I didn't write it only because the horse already saw you. Do you get it? You were helped here. This could be a MAJOR ERROR. But not towards you. 3. darn! there's not the +2 under the invisibility voice of SRD, under conditions. It's only under modifiers. Didn't check both. This is the most similar thing to MAJOR ERRORS in the fight. But it wouldn't have changed anything, just some damage to Ajax. He had 27, so nothing could change: if you did the maximum damage possible, 27, you would have been killed in the very same round. So where's the MAJOR ERROR?!? To solve this, I'll roll your attack roll to see if it's a critical, your only hope (so much for a MAJOR ERROR). It will be in the very same online rolling session, so if I'm wrong it will be obvious. att= natural 1 (http://krisinchico.brinkster.net/searchroll.asp?username=KarseAjax#68626) :rofl: 4. Hey man! Triple check before complaining! How about checking for your size and dexterity again? Hint: you were enlarged.... Again, did you read the fight? I hope you stop complaining like this. YOU did major errors (like allowing a CdG to a non helpless character). These are not MAJOR ERRORS! I did major errors too in the past, but man I used a lot of my time for this fight! I looked for the rules about ranger scrolls for hours. They're unfindable! I surfed Andy's, Monte's and Skip's sites! I could have interpreted the scroll caster level as though a ranger wrote it: CL 8!! So, admit it. You lost, only for bad luck, even though I helped you a bit! And now it's really wrong that you complain giving me the fault. Do you consider yourself mature? Anyways, no hard feelings here, maybe, I guess, this was a heavy day for you. Or anything else. Relax and consider again your position; while other times I did serious errors, and admitted it, and really felt sorry, this time you should reconsider your positions. Finally, let's not build a flame from this thing. If needed use the email. |
| Jindl10-24-03, 04:59 PM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Jindl - you're the worst loser on the planet. How can you complain when you were the first to heavily use animals in the arena? 1. Did you actually read the fight? Or are you complaining for the sake of complaining? Round 3: the horse moves west until at 30' from Karse, then he feels the scent: I even wrote {move action to note direction}! My "MAJOR ERROR" was to write the wrong cohordinate, but if you read the battle paying attention, you notice that the horse had a lot of movement left, and would have been inside 30' of Karse. The horse could have moved within 30 feet of Karse, but that is not what you wrote in the fight. If the horse had moved within 30 feet, it is reasonable to think that Karse would have either moved away or charged and attacked. But, I didn't explain that in my tactics. Just like I didn't explain that Karse would drink his potion of cure moderate wounds if he was hurt. 2. I consider both the animal and the rider to be in a battle. Thus, both will make the best use of their abilities to detect any threat. Any scent other than the master's is a threat on my opinion. This is wrong. If you do this, you are allowing a character with a handle animal of -2 to automatically succeed on a DC 10 check (to tell the horse to attack) and a DC 25 check (to "push" the horse to track by scent, since it does not know the Track trick.) This is unfair, because other characters (like my druid that you referenced above) have taken ranks in handle animal and can handle animal companions more effectively. Ajax had no chance of telling his horse to "find that guy with your nose". Its a DC 25 check and his skill is a -2. Until combat begins, the horse has no reason to think that it is in battle or that any random scent (in an arena of thousands) is a particular threat. I'm just asking you to use the skill checks correctly. Consider that during round 2, the horse moved only 40', because he wasn't sure about his task. A druid would have guided it better, for example. Did you complain about this? No. Curious! Anyways, wasn't this enough, on round 3, you casted a scroll. That's a DC 0 listen check, plus distance; both the horse and Ajax have better modifiers than that. I didn't write it only because the horse already saw you. Do you get it? You were helped here. This could be a MAJOR ERROR. But not towards you. I had not checked for errors on the other side. But now that you mention it, yep you made mistakes there too. 3. darn! there's not the +2 under the invisibility voice of SRD, under conditions. It's only under modifiers. Didn't check both. This is the most similar thing to MAJOR ERRORS in the fight. But it wouldn't have changed anything, just some damage to Ajax. He had 27, so nothing could change: if you did the maximum damage possible, 27, you would have been killed in the very same round. So where's the MAJOR ERROR?!? To solve this, I'll roll your attack roll to see if it's a critical, your only hope (so much for a MAJOR ERROR). It will be in the very same online rolling session, so if I'm wrong it will be obvious. att= natural 1 (http://krisinchico.brinkster.net/searchroll.asp?username=KarseAjax#68626) :rofl: I don't understand why you a checking for a crit. The attack roll missed by one (but would have hit by one if you had used the invis modifiers). 4. Hey man! Triple check before complaining! How about checking for your size and dexterity again? Hint: you were enlarged.... Again, did you read the fight? During the first round of attacks, I was not enlarged and had an AC of 22. After I enlarged, my AC goes down to 20. This is not what you had. You used AC 20 throughout. I hope you stop complaining like this. YOU did major errors (like allowing a CdG to a non helpless character). These are not MAJOR ERRORS! As I already stated, I know I have made errors when moderating. I don't expect moderators to be perfect. But I do think these errors had a major impact on the fight. Especially the handle animal error. I did major errors too in the past, but man I used a lot of my time for this fight! I looked for the rules about ranger scrolls for hours. They're unfindable! I surfed Andy's, Monte's and Skip's sites! I could have interpreted the scroll caster level as though a ranger wrote it: CL 8!! A ranger (or paladin) has a caster level equal to one half their level. So the scrolls caster level is 4. Whether they can use scrolls before level 4 is unclear. So, admit it. You lost, only for bad luck, even though I helped you a bit! And now it's really wrong that you complain giving me the fault. Do you consider yourself mature? Anyways, no hard feelings here, maybe, I guess, this was a heavy day for you. Or anything else. Relax and consider again your position; while other times I did serious errors, and admitted it, and really felt sorry, this time you should reconsider your positions. Finally, let's not build a flame from this thing. If needed use the email. Yep, there was bad luck involved in addition to the errors (just compare my rolls to his... its clear who luck was favoring). I didn't have any hard feelings towards you personally, I was remarking on errors I saw in the fight. Before discussing flame, let me ask you some things: Did I call you names in my post (like you did me in the very first line of your post?) No, I didn't. Did I make any negative personal remarks against you in my post (like you did when you referenced my maturity?) No, I didn't. Did I in any way, "flame" you in my post. No, but you did me. I still believe mistakes were made, and I am pointing them out, for future reference (as I already said in my post). Would they have changed the outcome of the fight, maybe. But we don't do reruns. The handle animal issue needs to be addressed. Characters should not be allowed to automatically succed at this skill. It simply isn't fair to others. If you have any more comments, I'm glad to hear them. -Jindl |
| Moherajikuyx10-24-03, 05:02 PM | Why have you got to flame? Do you really believe this to be the right place? Please don't. I'll email you. |
| Jindl10-24-03, 05:05 PM | Again, in no way have I flamed you. I have made no personal remarks directed towards you. Read my post. Nowhere do I flame anyone. What remark do you view as flaming? Other than the remarks you made about me "being the worst loser on the planet" or questions you made about my "maturity". In our discussion those are the only two statements even remotely like flaming and they were both made by you. I don't understand. -Jindl |
| Moherajikuyx10-24-03, 05:18 PM | Yeah, sure. Now read the email. |
| Madhattr10-24-03, 05:44 PM | moheral why wasn't I supposed to read your equipment on Iron? I just looked through it after motherblast has run the fight and I don't see anything that would change my tactics. |
| Moherajikuyx10-24-03, 06:06 PM | That was correct from you, thanks. The no edit rule was first created when people began modifying the equipment after seeing the others'. On a level 2 fight though, tactics are way more important. |
| Jindl10-24-03, 06:20 PM | @ Mo - Well, I think our email discussion pretty well settles the areas of contention about this fight. I think that in the future I will discuss any potential errors on the part of a moderator over email before posting on this thread. I think it would help clear up issues more easily. In regards to the Handle Animal issue, it does seem that we have agreed that in order for a character to use an ally to scent out invisible/hiding opponents, a handle animal check may be required. This is something that will be good for everyone to remember in future fights (especially those with the really bad handle animal checks). On another note: Due to time restraints, I am going to retire 2 characters this weekend. As of now, Karse is retired. I will decide the other character later. -Jindl |
| MotherBast10-24-03, 06:41 PM | Ok, im finally finished with the fight and its posted. Sorry it took so long, 2 really good eppisodes of Buffy were on FX. (If yall haden't guessed by now, I really like that show.) The fight only lasted 2 rounds, so not to much room for errors exists, but it was my first battle and if anyone sees anything I need to correct in the future, please let me know. If ya dont want the supprise spoiled, don't read this next part. Its really only for Madhattr anyway. You might want to concider changing your tactics from retreat and cast Sant. to casting it defensively as that might have saved you on the last fight. I almost did it anyway, but that wouldn't have been fair to Iron, because I followed his tactics without any changes. |
| Moherajikuyx10-24-03, 07:22 PM | I appreciate it Jindl. I concur about the Handle thing. I suggest everyone to keep a maximum of two fights per week, for easyness of life. |
| Moherajikuyx10-24-03, 07:29 PM | Ehr... It just happened to me. I'm going to post a new prize: the Fastest Fight! |
| Moherajikuyx10-24-03, 07:34 PM | Great start BTW MotherBast! :ayyyy!: |
| Jindl10-24-03, 09:21 PM | All of my tactics have been sent. Waiting on tactics from Imizael and Snarkhunter... Good fight, MotherBast. Glad to see Iron the Panza is living up to the Panza reputation. -Jindl |
| MotherBast10-24-03, 09:53 PM | OK, its friday night and I still don't have tactics for Jorge (snark) or Just the gist (madcowtemp). I'm going to bed now, and I'm runing one of those two fights tomarrow morning before my girlfriend gets off work, so unless you want me to use your generic tactics, I will need your tactics in my inbox when I wake up. I know fights were posted late this week, but this weekend is like my 2 year anniveresary and its gona be very hard for me to run any fights after my girlfriend gets home, so I will use your generic tactics. Just givin ya the heads up so's ya don't say I didn't warn ya. Night all, see ya's in tha mornin. |
| Madhattr10-24-03, 10:28 PM | Um I suppose I just assumed noone would actually invoke an attack when they didn't need to. I just assumed you would take a 5 foot step instead of running backward, oh well. |
| WolfWings10-25-03, 06:24 AM | ...still waiting for e-mailed tactics from one side of the match I'm running. I'll be running it in the morning if I don't see any specific tactics by then, even if they're just 'use the generic tactics' which is what I expect. :-) Also, if you really want to play the elf that starts with a Str 18 Masterwork Composite Longbow, feel free. I'm gonna actually side-step and make the arena's most thick-skinned tank. =^.^= |
| MotherBast10-25-03, 06:58 AM | Madhattr- 5' step would have worked too, but your tactics said to move for cover. As that is specificaly what they said, its what I tried to do. I realize it was a pore tactacal dicision, but I didn't feel that it was fair for me to add or take away from your tactics in any way. As I said, I would have casted defensivly, but your tactics didn't mention it, nor did they suggest to 5' step out of danger. If I run your next fight I'll remember that you said to 5' step before casting Sant. though. (By the way, a lot of ppl use Enlarge potions, including Iron, so 5' steps aren't always an option. thats why I would concider casting Defensivly being added to your tactics.) Anyway, Its saterday morning here, and Im gona run a fight this morning. I fliped a coin for it and it came up Curungar vs. Just the gist, who actually has a name but I forget it at the moment. I guess I'll be using general tactics for just the gist as none were sent to me. I should have the fight finished and posted in about 4 or 5 hours. I hope this one lasts longer as I really enjoy running these battles. Good luck to both fighters. |
| Caterane10-25-03, 08:30 AM | Woah, much has been said here, eh? Originally posted by Moherajikuyx YOU did major errors (like allowing a CdG to a non helpless character). These are not MAJOR ERRORS! Originally posted by Jindl: As I already stated, I know I have made errors when moderating. I don't expect moderators to be perfect. But I do think these errors had a major impact on the fight. Mmmyes, I think the CDG had a major impact on my character, too Look Jindl, Ebelin died because of wrong tactic application, the Harvester because of wrong rule application, and I think I would`ve won both and don`t need to look at this anoying "1 lost" entry. But hey, it`s a game. If we rerun every time a rule or tactic has been applied wrong we will run out of moderators faster than Rito lies dead on the ground. |
| MotherBast10-25-03, 09:32 AM | Ok, the Cora Leagallow VS. Curungur fight is done. 13 rounds long, and a whole lotta arrows shot. I wont name the winner here, but this is one that really could have gone either way. Both fighters were rolling very porely and both had tactics that worked very well at eliminating there opponit's advantages. The fight will be by no means a favorit of the arena fans, but it was fun to run. And I got to use a few rules for the first time in 3.5, like cover and granade weapons. Ill probably have it posted in a couple of hours. Have fun reading it. |
| Magagumo10-25-03, 10:53 AM | *sigh* as the cause of many of Cat's troubles (Im looking towards the perfect running of Harvester this time ^_^;;).. I can understand both sides of the arguement. These things do unfortunately happen, but I think the important thing is that they never happen again. Thus, I propose this addendum to the "no re-run rule": If a moderator makes the same error two times in a row, then serious consderations need to be made to correct these mistakes, perhaps as dissallowing one of the mod's charcaters from fighting the week thereafter. This is harsh, but I do belive we have been lax in our responsibility, since it seems that it doesn't matter if we mess up a fight, it wasn't our character and we don't have to re-run it. Mistakes will always be made, espe. by newer Mods, but we as the more experienced people must take some blame for our mistakes. I'm not suggesting anything ahould happen now, as scent has been confused for awhile by people, I belive, and Handle Animal has not been well-practiced up till now (b/c Jindl can perform most of these automatically and w/o question.) Now then, my opinions: 1. Handle Animal application, we will not be using out-of-game logic to determine if the horse uses it's scent todefend its master.; Only if the animal has the track feat will this ability be used, and it takes a standard action (or perhaps a move-equivalent?) to use this skill... i.e the player must make some action to order the animal to Track, only Druids can do this as a fre-action/ move-action for push, b/c its listed under their special abilities with animal companions. 2. Mislabled stats- I'm afraid this can happen to anyone, esp. when the chars sheet is wrong (I know I follow the listing on the board almost religiusly), but Mods should triple-chk their numbers, just in case. I haven't red all the argueents, but I hope people will one, learn from this, and two, calm down please ^_~;;;. It's still just a game, and there are no reasons for personal attacks, Moh. Jindl, I know you will accept the incidents of the past day or so with grace abnd aplomb, and we will all move on with the wonderful games that have been started here :) BTW, Jindl, I will have Bruno's tactics to you a little bit later this evening, sorry for the delay, but I'm helping to build a house with Habitat for Humanity, then running my own campaign, but they will come soon! :) |
| Moherajikuyx10-25-03, 11:07 AM | We already did. The track thing sounds very appropriate! Good idea. |
| MotherBast10-25-03, 11:25 AM | Ok, Cora vs. Curungur posted. My god that took a while. Anyway, I have a question. Cora is a "lobber" of grenade weapons. In my own campain, I rulled that a sling could be used to fire things like thunderstones. I also noticed Cora had a sling. Im not sure if Cora was ment to be used in this way, but as I could find no rule in the book to actually justify this ability, I didn't alow Cora to do this. I've been useing the sling thing since 3.0 first came out and now I can't remember if I made it up or if its a rule. Should I have alowed it in this fight? Also, Cora has rapid shot with the sling listed under tactics. From pg. 121 of PHB, "Loading a sling is a move action that requires two hands and provokes attacks of opportunity." so, rapid shot can't be used with a sling, nor can secondary attacks. If anyone finds any errors in the fight, I'm eager to hear them. Oh, and also, since neither character said anything about hiding in there tactics, I didn't make any spot checks. If line of sight existed, then they saw, if it didn't, then they didn't. I wont run the next fight till tomarrow probably, so Snark, ya got to send me your tactics today if ya have any. |
| Jindl10-25-03, 11:27 AM | In preparing to create tactics for Jindl, and to moderate Bilo, I noticed something that we have all been running incorrectly. So I thought I would post my findings here: We need to check spell casting times more closely. Many spells have a casting time of 1 round. This means the caster can take a five foot step, but must spend a full round action casting. In addition, his casting continues through his opponents turn. The act of casting is not complete until just before the caster's next turn, when the spell takes effect. So, when Jindl summons a swarm, the casting time is 1 round, therefore he casts during his turn and during the opponents turn. This means opponents can try to disrupt the spell by attacking (without using a readied action). The batswarm also doesnt appear until just before Jindl's next turn. Having explained how 1 round casting times work, let me list a few spells that have 1 round casting times and that we have ran incorrectly in the past: Enlarge person, Reduce Person, Sleep (and deep slumber), all summon spells (including summon swarm). Also, scrolls and wands take the same amount of time to activate as the spells they contain, so scrolls/wands of these spells also take 1 round actions to cast. Note: Spell-like abilities do NOT use the extended casting time. They are cast in one standard action, unless the ability description says otherwise. Think of the times someone cast reduce and then moved behind cover. Or when someone cast enlarge person and moved. Or when the bat swarms began attacking immediately after Jindl started to summon them (they should have not begun to attack until the following round.) These mistakes had significant impacts on the fights, giving the casters effectively and extra turn, or denying opponents a turn. Not to mention denying opponents the chance to disrupt the casting/ or just move out of the range of the spell. Let's all make an effort to pay closer attention to casting times and in general the time it takes for characters to perform any actions. BTW: Magagumo, handle animal is a move action except when handling your animal companion (free action for druids and rangers.) -Jindl PS: I was REALLY surpised to learn that Enlarge + Reduce person had one round casting times... EDIT: Good fight, MotherBast. [Aside] Guys, I think we've got ourselves another good moderator... |
| Caterane10-25-03, 12:15 PM | I hate criticals! Just wanted to say this |
| MotherBast10-25-03, 12:37 PM | ah sucks, I feel all warm and fuzzy inside now. |
| Caterane10-25-03, 05:07 PM | Another fight finished: Rito Maya vs Tomar Vilir (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1668438#post1668438) Ok, time to go out. After this fight I have to drink a beer or ten |
| SnarkHunter10-25-03, 07:14 PM | What kind of post fight commentary would it be if we couldn't point out mistakes! To not? That's just isn't the Core Arena way... Um... Got to be one somewhere... ... ... ... Okay It was a very excellent fight, I liked the cross over in particular. But! Can only use one stunning fist per round. I don't think it would have made a huge difference. Rito smash. Yup. Rito smash. |
| sloisel10-25-03, 07:53 PM | Snark, have you received my tactics email? Some of my mail to the other mods was kind of touch and go last week. Sébastien Loisel |
| MotherBast10-25-03, 08:39 PM | Hey Snark, I had decided to run your fight just using general tactics, but your character sheet dosen't list any. I don't mean to hastle ya, but I'm gona run that fight tomarrow morning, and right now I have 0 idea what your tactics would be. I really can't hold off on this. If I'm gona run the fight, it will be ran tomarrow morning, so I'll have to run it tacticsless for your fighter if ya don't get me some. Again, not trying to hastle ya, but I just want ya to have a fair chance, and without some kinda tactics, ya probably wont have no chance. |
| Jindl10-25-03, 09:04 PM | I see a bandwagon and I'm jumping on... Snark !! send me tactics for Bilo vs Moon-moon !!! (I really want to run that fight :) ) and I can't believe nobody else was surprised about enlarge person and reduce person being 1 round casting times... was I really the only one who didn't know this? -Jindl |
| SnarkHunter10-25-03, 09:04 PM | Sloisel you bet! Also recieved tactics for Cat but not Ander...or Lucient... Mother: I get a mail subsytem return when I sent your tactics (last night). I'll try again though. Jindle: tactics sent. Edit: My mistake! I certainly hope its correct now. |
| MotherBast10-25-03, 09:11 PM | Humm...... everyone else got through fine. You are typing MotherBAST (at) yahoo.com and not MotherBLAST, as some people on this thread seem to be fans of. If you can't get me by e-mail, just send me a private message on the boards like Madhatter did. I check the boards frequently. |
| MotherBast10-25-03, 09:13 PM | Ah, got them Snark, thanks. I'll run that and post it tomarrow. |
| SnarkHunter10-25-03, 09:15 PM | Excellente! And I will run... [assuming I get tactics Magagumbo!] Random fight X! Tonight! (to be edited later ;)) |
| WolfWings10-25-03, 09:18 PM | Tanya won initiative by over double... Hurtz got an 18 on the Hide roll. Then a natural 20 on the MS roll. DC is now a 22 for both, at 10ft. Tanya is specifically staying above Hurtz ranged attacks, 60ft. Best Tanya can do with a natural 20 is 28, -6 for range = 22. That's assuming she is PERFECTLY overhead Hurtz, otherwise it's 21. Munchies and a pillow, indeed. Anyone bring trail rations? =O.o= Alter Self lasts for 100 rounds... and she has 2 of them. Should I roll a Cha check to see if Hurtz snores? =^.^= In short... um... this fight is going to take all freaking week to run. And Hurtz might finally win once Tanya runs out of Alter Self scrolls. |
| SnarkHunter10-25-03, 09:22 PM | Mmm sounds riviting. First fights are never easy ( I couldn't possibly make it through reading my first fight. So many errors...), but its still fun and educational as well. Hope it turns out ok! Edit: Also don't forget, anytime Hurtz moves or takes an action he'll need to make new Hide and MS checks. If both of them are just going to sit (I.E. thats exactly what it says in tactics) and wait I suggest you say. ... 10 minutes (99 rounds) later... And go from there |
| Jindl10-25-03, 09:25 PM | Wolfwings - Two comments for you to consider as you moderate that fight. 1. Does Hurtz have any reason to know how long alter self lasts or how well he is hid? How does he know how long to keep hiding? How does he know that he is hidden really well? How would he react to not knowing these things... 2. If he would stay hid, and she can't see him, then skip those rounds (its been done before in similar situations...) Good luck. -Jindl |
| WolfWings10-25-03, 09:27 PM | Actually, this fight is trivially easy, and it's hardly my first time DMing. It's just that it's going to be a HUGE chart of die-rolls for spot and listen, carpet-bombing most of the arena square-by-square. =^.^= And normally I wouldn't think of this, but if Irlina wants to stick a 'surrender if' clause into her tactics, or limit how many Alter Self scrolls she uses, she may. I really doubt she wants to blow through both Alter Self scrolls on the first fight, nor do I think she thought she could. I'm going to assume "Never give up, Never surrender!" and "Damn the Torpedoes, full spell-scrolls ahead!" unless I hear otherwise. =^.^= |
| SnarkHunter10-25-03, 09:32 PM | Since at this point tactics are in I don't think editing is appropriate. Also there's no reason not to burn all your resources at the first fight, since if you lose you can just rebuy everything anyway. And if you win, well, then you get the beau coup monies...mmm monies... |
| WolfWings10-25-03, 09:32 PM | Originally posted by Jindl 1. Does Hurtz have any reason to know how long alter self lasts or how well he is hid? How does he know how long to keep hiding? How does he know that he is hidden really well? How would he react to not knowing these things... He specifically said 'pull out munchies and don't move until Tanya comes in range' so in this case, that's what I'm doing. He doesn't know how well he hid, but as a DM I know he can't realistically be found at this point. And even if she tagged him with a sleep spell by dumb luck... he's still hidden and silent under a rock. Originally posted by Jindl 2. If he would stay hid, and she can't see him, then skip those rounds (its been done before in similar situations...) Yeah... I'll probably make a single spot roll, and have her find him at that range walking around the Arena floor, and treat it like an Ambush round TBH. Seems the only feasable way to handle it. |
| Tellish_of_Ket10-25-03, 10:15 PM | I hate to be a pain at this point, but something just clicked and a friend reminded me of it as well. In his default tactics it says he's altering self into a mephit. He cannot. An ice mephit is extra planar, air & cold being, whereas the Tiefling is Outsider-native. It is not of the same sub-type. Just wondering it that will help speed things up for ya. Tellish |
| Kukanil10-25-03, 10:39 PM | Sent my tactics to Imizael. Good luck Tellish. |
| Jindl10-25-03, 11:17 PM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket I hate to be a pain at this point, but something just clicked and a friend reminded me of it as well. In his default tactics it says he's altering self into a mephit. He cannot. An ice mephit is extra planar, air & cold being, whereas the Tiefling is Outsider-native. It is not of the same sub-type. Just wondering it that will help speed things up for ya. Tellish Not that I claim to be the guru of alter self or anything... but, The spell description says "a creature of the same type". It makes no distinction or reference to sub-type. There are many threads on this board which advise the use of alter self by planetouched races to take on the abilities of the weaker outsiders. As far as I know, this is perfectly legal, regardless of subtype. -Jindl |
| Magagumo10-25-03, 11:21 PM | Enlarge and Reduce Person surprised me too Jindl, good to hear those bloody duergar can still pull it off as a standard action ^_~. Ah.. 30+ rounds of stall tactics.. Ander's best trick ever... Right Jindl? :-D Planetouched are Native outsiders, so they can take the forms of just other planetouched, really (since Half-fiend and celestial are templates ;)). I have a cleric half-fiend in my campaign, and we just realized that his main use for it would be to appear as aasimar.. because they obviously can be trusted ^_~ (My aasimar paladin player in the same game is not really sure whatto make of all of it. :-P) |
| WolfWings10-25-03, 11:39 PM | Originally posted by Jindl The spell description says "a creature of the same type". It makes no distinction or reference to sub-type. There are many threads on this board which advise the use of alter self by planetouched races to take on the abilities of the weaker outsiders. As far as I know, this is perfectly legal, regardless of subtype. Yeah, this was the same ruling I was going by, after reading the 3.0 and 3.5 and SRD books to try to find anything that would hint against it. There's nothing against it that I can find, anywhere, so we officially have 200 rounds of Hurtz sitting under a rock, and a magicked-out Tiefling Wizard about to try to Ambush each other. =^.^= Finishing it up now, actually. |
| SnarkHunter10-25-03, 11:46 PM | Really Magagumbo I don't see, like Jindle said, why one would be restricted to a particular subtype when they're form changes. Would you care to explain your reasoning a bit? |
| WolfWings10-26-03, 12:30 AM | Regardless... the fight is done (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1671311#post1671311) and Hurtz officially broke my dice. Literally. One d20 cracked when I rolled it during this fight. Yes, it was the 'back up a critcal' roll also. :-) |
| Jindl10-26-03, 12:31 AM | Originally posted by SnarkHunter Really Magagumbo I don't see, like Jindle said, why one would be restricted to a particular subtype when they're form changes. Would you care to explain your reasoning a bit? Maga-gumbo? I didn't know he was Creole... ;) WolfWings - Good fight. (Although the post format was WIDESCREEN, which made it tough to read.) |
| WolfWings10-26-03, 12:44 AM | Tweaked so it's not wide-screen, but formatting is screwed. :-) |
| Jindl10-26-03, 01:36 AM | Aris the Longstrider vs Mara Thunderstorm, posted. A battle between two wood elves, one good, one evil. Very evenly matched... -Jindl (and hopefully error free ;) ) |
| Tellish_of_Ket10-26-03, 01:35 AM | I do see both sides of the alter self debate. Both yea and nay. I do accept that it's possible. So it would also be reasonable to assume an outsider can alter self into a demon form as well. Just seems a little on the high end as well, but well within the rules if sub-types are cool too. Thx for the fight. Really sorry about having to make it sooooo long, but i was all out of options and looking who i was facing with just the default tactics, i knew i was in big trouble. I guess now i have to go read and so who the crit was against. *crosses fingers. Notes on a couple of things i saw in other fights. Characters with mounts should note their own personal wt. along with the weight of their gear, i know some do, but also some don't. A heavy warhorse in a medium load moves at only 35', not 50'. Same with the riding dog. It has a light load capacity of 100 lbs i believe, yet there is 90 lbs of equipment on Cora's dog (not including character weight of 32 lbs) which would bring it to a medium load. I know it's a lot to keep track of, and i'm sure we are swamped with stats and things to remember, but it could really come into play especially a low level spell caster who sees that his opponent is borderline encumbered decides to strike the horse with a ray of enfeeblement reducing it's speed to 35', and now suddenly he has almost as good mobility as the mounted rider. If he were to have expeditious retreat to boot then he really has a mobility advantage. Just something to keep in mind. Tellish |
| WolfWings10-26-03, 01:53 AM | Actually I just 'Ad Hocced' the 200 rounds away, re-starting combat as an ambush, checking who saw/heard who first. I was NOT about to sit there, randomly rolling dice to try to see where Tanya wandered all over the Arena. :-) |
| Tellish_of_Ket10-26-03, 03:48 AM | Ok, i've posted the fight between Ralin and Brakin. But something odd happened, and i need a ruling from one of the senior moderators. Tellish |
| Moherajikuyx10-26-03, 04:40 AM | First of all, compliments to all the moderators, you're very good writers! Tellish: :rofl: Is this the first draw of the tournament? Mh... That would suck for both, as no one won but both used resources. So that's not good. Edit: if no one dies, I'd say the first to go unconscious loses. In cases of "last tries" like this, the one who attacks wins, if he hits. |
| WolfWings10-26-03, 04:50 AM | I'd say there's five choices: Whoever knocked the other one out first wins, as the 'faint' happens second Whoever was knocked to less HP by the final attacks wins (so an attack to -1 would still be a draw, but this was -2 by sheer luck) Draw, neither goes up a level, split the purse (free restock, basically) Draw, neither goes up a level, no money either (which would SUCK) Continue doing checks for natural healing, see who wakes up first Most of those would either give an outright win, or likely win to Ralin though, with that 20 Con he has. =O.o= Still, guess Dwarven Bards can do some damage. =^.^= And WOW, I'm amazed at my luck. You're right, also, on the Init bonus. One last typo I guess snuck in. =^.^= Still... didn't actually expect my fireball scroll to work. *laughs* THAT was a nice surprise. :-) And yeah, I know I'm not a 'senior Moderator' but I just felt like tossing in my own five bits as a DM. :-) |
| Moherajikuyx10-26-03, 05:47 AM | Wait! Wolf's right, the only option that respects the rules is the one that lets them make daily stabilization checks. Eventually, one or the other will die or awake and finish the match. I know it's not really realistical that in an arena, two are let there dying to see who's the first, but hey, we're in the CO Thread ;) |
| Caterane10-26-03, 05:59 AM | *lol* what a stupid fight. But great work, Tellish. I also like your narrative style. As for both being at -9: The fight isn`t finished yet. Yes, it might not be very realistic but neither is the carnage on the tribune and still the ranks are filled. On top of that it wouldn`t be the first time we skipped a few rounds. So the issue is plain and simple: continue and wait. No reason to do otherwise like a draw, a rerun or even the weird rules like last hit wins or last hit with most damage done or the one with more negative hp loses. p146 PHB: Recovering without help Wait one hour, roll d% and look who dies first. One might say this is the first time one regrets to have won initiative... |
| WolfWings10-26-03, 06:39 AM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Wait! Wolf's right, the only option that respects the rules is the one that lets them make daily stabilization checks. Eventually, one or the other will die or awake and finish the match. I know it's not really realistical that in an arena, two are let there dying to see who's the first, but hey, we're in the CO Thread ;) I'm fine with that... but now comes the obvious reminder lest someone think Ralin would have to check before Brakin due to initiative. Brakin has to check first, since he stabalized at -9 before Ralin did, starting at -2 while Ralin was at -1 due to activity. So one hour after each stabalized, check for consciousness, else lose a HP. This looks like the week of the half-hour-plus arena fights. =^.^= |
| MotherBast10-26-03, 07:31 AM | Exelent job on the fight Tellish. I do have one quip though. In my tactics I stated to flurry every time after grappling. I see why you decided not to on the last one, begcause one good grapple would have killed him, but I think my odds of doing damage are higher by tacking 2 attacks, and having 2 chances to hit. If I had flurried that last time, he might have died. And also, I never used a stunning fist that I can see. He might not have had the chance to fight back at all if I had. Aside from those complantes, good fight all around. As far as what to do now, seeing as I will probably loose if we do the hour later stabalize thing, I wana say draw and split money, but the stabalize thing is probably the best way to handle it. |
| Moherajikuyx10-26-03, 07:53 AM | You're very polite, MB, nice of you: I don't always manage to. This happens, it's intrinsic of the nature of this kind of tournament. We have to accept it and leave with it. I try to, even though I did errors and I got angry too, at times; but that doesn't solve anything. By doing and discoverin errors we grow better moderators. Who knows, maybe one of us will be a games designer sooner or later :) |
| Jindl10-26-03, 09:14 AM | On the ending of Ralin vs Bracking... Brackin wins. The grapple check that Ralin made (which dealt the final 4 pts of damage to Brackin), really only deals non-lethal damage. From the SRD, "While grappling, you can deal damage to your opponent equivalent to an unarmed strike. Make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you deal nonlethal damage as normal for an unarmed strike (1d3 for medium ..." It goes on to say that you must take a -4 penalty to deal lethal damage instead of non lethal. Ralin did not take the -4 penalty (indeed his grapple attempt would have failed if he did try this) and therefore the 1d3+1=4 points of damage he did was non-lethal damage. From the SRD, "When you take nonlethal damage, keep a running total of how much you've accumulated. Do not deduct the nonlethal damage number from your current hit points...." and father down that page, "When your nonlethal damage exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconcious." So, Brackin took 4 hps of non lethal damage, which exceeds his current hit point total of 2. Therefore he falls unconcious (but not dying!) Meanwhile, Ralin takes 1 point of lethal damage from exerting himself, and falls to -1 hitpoints, dying. From the SRD, "You heal nonlethal damage at the rate of 1 hit point per hour per character level." So Brackin heals up enough nonlethal damage to become conscious after 1 hour, and heals up the rest of the nonlethal after a 2nd hour (or when his hitpoints are cured by magic.) Brackin does not have to make stabilization checks for the nonlethal damage making him unconscious. He automatically heals this part of this nonlethal damage and becomes concious after one hour. Although Ralin stabilizes, he doesn't get a chance to become conscious until 7 rounds after Brackin becomes conscious. Therefore Brackin is the winner (as nonlethal damage can't kill you, its "non lethal." This should settle the fight. Good work, Tellish! -Jindl |
| WolfWings10-26-03, 09:58 AM | Actually... I just realized something Jindl missed... Brack has one less HP than currently figured. So Rinal has a chance to wake up first instead, if he survives another hour at all. :-) This keeps flipping back and forth, but I'll just save everyone the trouble and agree with MB. Just split the purse, effectively paying for both of us to restock with a couple GP to spare, and pretend it never happened. =^.^= |
| MotherBast10-26-03, 09:59 AM | whoo hoo.... nice work jindl. Your my hero now. I just finished the Diana vs. Jorge de Berniers fight. I loved this one. The math got insanly complacated, so I might have made an error in calculations on the final round somewhere. Someone may want to check it, but the fight was super fun to run. Two gladiators just stalking twords one another, each getting more powerful every step of the way untill they finaly collide in a titanic melee lasting only one round. I can't wait to describe this one. I can almost hear the Jaws music in the background as they get closer and closer to each other. I should have the fight posted in an hour or so. |
| Jindl10-26-03, 10:09 AM | Originally posted by WolfWings Actually... I just realized something Jindl missed... Brack has one less HP than currently figured. So Rinal has a chance to wake up first instead. If Brackin was really at one hp when struck with nonlethal damage, then Ralin has a 10% chance to become conscious first. If he fails this roll, he drops to -10 hps and its over. Brackin doesn't have to make any rolls, he automatically awakens after 2 hours (when his nonlethal damage is completely healed). *************************************** However, upon reviewing the fight, it seems that Brackin does in fact have 2 hps when hit with nonlethal damage, and therefore does reach consciousness first (after 1 hour, approximately 8 rounds before Ralin gets his 10% chance to stabilize.) That gives Brackin 9 rounds to finish off the dwarf, and he is not subject to losing hps when performing strenuous activity (as he has 2 hps and 2 pts of nonlethal damage, not 0 hps...) -Jindl |
| WolfWings10-26-03, 10:15 AM | Nope. Drinking the potion that healed him of 4HP still cost him 1hp, so he only had 3HP from that point onwards, not 4HP. ANY standard action, including quaffing a potion, takes HPs away. The magical healing kicks in, yes, but that one HP is still taken away. |
| Jindl10-26-03, 10:16 AM | Originally posted by WolfWings Nope. Drinking the potion that healed him of 4HP still cost him 1hp, so he only had 3HP from that point onwards, not 4HP. ANY standard action, including quaffing a potion, takes HPs away. The magical healing kicks in, yes, but that one HP is still taken away. Ah yes, you are correct! Brackin did only have 1 hp when hit with nonlethal damage... So Ralin gets a 10% chance to become conscious first. Tellish, please roll that 10% chance and determine the winner of the fight. -Jindl |
| WolfWings10-26-03, 10:21 AM | I doubt it'll end up making a difference, but at least we'll know for sure what happens now. =^.^= Amusingly, this has really been a "Battle of the Bulge" with both sides winning by the skin of their teeth constantly throughout. Twice, Brack stayed up and mobile only by 1hp. I still wonder what would have happened if Tellish hadn't moved me up, but simply taken the pot-shot after the fireball actually worked. =^.^= |
| Moherajikuyx10-26-03, 11:13 AM | With the participation of no one less than Bes Ulmokina, the Shaanan rider, and Elminster! Lothar vs. the Elder! |
| MotherBast10-26-03, 11:35 AM | Wait, at -9 hp, even if wolf Makes his 10% save, he still simply becomes conchous and disabled. That means he will be unable to kill me before I awake and kill him. Pg. 146 of PHB "Even once he becomes conscious and is disabled, an unaided character still does not recover hit points naturally." So enen if he makes his roll and dosen't bleed out, he is still disabled and unable to kill me before I wake. So I guess "the king is to me now." And I have finised posting the Diana vs. Jorge fitght. I strongly suggest you read it, its very good. |
| Tellish_of_Ket10-26-03, 11:55 AM | Here is the link. I tried to find an online roller just so everyone can see the results. http://www.irony.com/cgi-bin/droll-query Ralin fails to stabalize and thus passes away to never-never land. A few notes on the fight. Brakin...i did do the stunning fist. Sometimes things get left out. I've never run a fight, and sat and typed it at the same time. Sometimes things are omitted, but doesn't mean it didn't happen. I did make a stunning fist, apolagies for not including it, and the save was made. I tried to use tactics as best as possible. For Ralin, i did think about re-loading the x-bow, but Brakin was already in range of charging, and you did specify to take one shot, and then charge. I figured since he was in your charge range and you had the chance to end the fight first, and it was in ur tactics, i went for it. @ Brakin, my bad on not using the flurry. With your strength bonus and grapple % more than his, mathematically, you had better odds of winning. If you failed to succeed at a grapple check with flurry, you're subsequently weaker for a counter-attack by Ralin. Anything but a 1 on dmg and it would have been an outright win. I really wish i could control the dice in a situation like this, it would make for fewer arguments, but at the same time, i wanna be fair to all participants. Also, Brakin, i paid more attention to what was sent, rather than default tactics. And in e-mailed tactics flurry wasn't mentioned. Now, it's not that i didn't think of it. But i went with the highest probability of success in this case. Another note for Ralin. If i had you stayed back and take pop-shots at Brakin you'd be at -2 for range increments, requiring a 20 to hit. Again, keeping with tactics sent, i just did what you asked me to do with your combatant. And on that note, just a reminder to all combatants...it wouldn't be fair of me to change your tactics. If something went wrong, i'd be totally to blame. I sent in a horrible set of tactics where i drank a potion of hide from animals vs. to evade someone's familiar. They are magical beasts...now the moderator could have just said, ok, insane, it'll never work and change tactics, but the guy on the other end, if i ended up winning, would have been severly ticked off. So as for the no-flurry by Brakin, nothing in tactics sent mentions flurry...and i know it's in your general tactics. It was a call on my part that i hope your not upset with, but i just went with highest odds of success. I did the stun attempt, but save was made. I could go back and edit the post, but it would be a moot point. My bad on forgetting about the non-lethal dmg thing. Live and learn. And as far as the taking a point of dmg from strenuous activity will being at 0hp, i tried looking for specifics if you healed up and were no longer at 0 hp during that round, and didn't see it. I may have missed it, it's possible. But i did take it into account, and couldn't find it. So, i let the hp stand as they were from the healing pot. Anyhow, sorry for all the confusion and mess caused by this. I strive to better myself with each passing fight. Tellish *EDIT Link doesn't seem to go to the results. For the future, where is the online roller that ppl here use from time to time? |
| MotherBast10-26-03, 12:02 PM | I'm not upset tellish. Your right, i didn't mention flurry in my fight specific tactics, my bad there. And I hate to keep picking at this fight, but when he shot me with the bow, did you take my Deflect arrows feat into account? I see no calculation for it, and I was just wondering if you simply didn't list it because like the stunning fist it failed. I assume now that I won that fight and get my 1.7k. Time for Monkey update goodness. [Edit] Actually, I just looked up deflect arrows to be sure, and I should have automaticly swated away his arrow. No real loss though, as I won anyway. Just all you other mods keep my deflect arrows feat in mind from now on. |
| SnarkHunter10-26-03, 12:34 PM | Ouch one hit. I think Jorge will have to get the axe soon, those hp's are killing him (well loss of hp's to be accurate...but anyway) Mother why couldn't Jorge do the touch attack on the turn he cast the scroll? |
| Tellish_of_Ket10-26-03, 12:35 PM | Originally posted by MotherBast And I hate to keep picking at this fight, but when he shot me with the bow, did you take my Deflect arrows feat into account? I see no calculation for it, and I was just wondering if you simply didn't list it because like the stunning fist it failed. I assume now that I won that fight and get my 1.7k. Time for Monkey update goodness. Just all you other mods keep my deflect arrows feat in mind from now on. Yes, you have won the fight and are 1700gp richer. And no, i did not take the defelct arrows feat into account. My mistake. And you'd think coming from a guy who's played solely monks for the last 3 years i would remember. lol. Tellish |
| MotherBast10-26-03, 12:51 PM | Snark, he couln't because he needed his move action the retrive the scroll, and his action to cast it. He didn't retrive the scroll the round before because he spent the whole round growing, and didn't move, and therefore couldn't draw the scroll. And about your hps, you'd be 6 hps richer and would have won that fight if your first level were in paladin instead of sorceror. I really don't see any significant advantage to have put the sorc level first anyway. On a different note, Brakin in now updated.... I can't wait to see how Candessa does. Perhaps at least one bard will win a fight in the arena. Finding out that Sleep is a full round spell really puts a damper on her stratigy though. About her, my plan was to get her to high enough level for charm person, and of course spell focus in that school, then charm my opponits in the arena and "suggest" to them that to avoid hurting each other they should surrender. Since charm makes whatever I say viewed favorably by the target, I would assume they would agree. Would this qualify as a win in the arena? I ask now because with the sleep thing ruining my early level stratagy, I probablly will never be able to cast charm with Candessa anyway, and I wana know if my idea had merrit. |
| Magagumo10-26-03, 01:00 PM | First of all, to finally respond to Snark's questiona few pages back *sweat* I see now that native outsider was a subtype (I thought that since rangers had to select them separately from other types, they were an official type). Thusly, I agree, it is quite possible for the native outsider to becomne any outsider of 5 HD or less that he wished (provided he too has the HD ^_~). At least they don't get most of the abilities, eh? :) As for Snark's first level in sorceror, I was led to understand that he was contining down the paladin path, and one cannot return to take levels in paladin once you mutli-class away from it. Thusly, sorceror, despite being a weaker choice overall, was encessary to retain paladin power... they make you work for that charisma bonus to saves ;) |
| MotherBast10-26-03, 01:06 PM | ah, I see. Yeah, he would have to go first sorc then. Ah well. Maybe he will win the next fight and his HP problems will be lessened. Either way, his fight with Diana was super fun to run and even though I wrote it I still enjoyed reading it. I'd hate to see Jorge retired. After running this fight I really like that guy. (I think his Cha 16 might be bluring my thinking though, hard to tell) |
| Magagumo10-26-03, 01:14 PM | One note, as I don't think this was mentioned in the past few pages... when one is riding a mount, you use your move action to have it move/attack/etc. Thusly, unless your mount as not moved at all, you cannot use Rapid shot, as this requires a full-round attack action, which you are denied. Another good reason for Manyshot :) |
| MotherBast10-26-03, 01:41 PM | Bah, your right Mag..... I ran it wrong on the Cora vs. Crurngur fight. ah well, Cora was the one using the mount and she lost so I guess it didn't matter that much, except she should have like 6 more arrows. I'll remember that from now on. |
| Tellish_of_Ket10-26-03, 01:51 PM | Originally posted by Magagumo One note, as I don't think this was mentioned in the past few pages... when one is riding a mount, you use your move action to have it move/attack/etc. Thusly, unless your mount as not moved at all, you cannot use Rapid shot, as this requires a full-round attack action, which you are denied. Another good reason for Manyshot :) Not true. Archers may use the full attack action while mounted. It was like that in 3.0 and hasn't changed with 3.5. You can still take move actions as well. Meaning you can fire a x-bow and reload it, even if your mount is running at x4. Tellish |
| Magagumo10-26-03, 02:00 PM | It's not that the archers mounted, its that they use their move action to have the mount move, so they are only left with a standard action. If the mount does not move, say because you're 5' from your oponnent, then both of you can take a full-round attack (or if it only 5' steps). Otherwise, both of you are only left with standard actions. Edit: My mail program, Eudora, recentl;y freaked out on me, so I may have lost Imitril and Harvester's tactics (b/c I do thin you sent them to me). I'm sorry for the inconvinience, but could you please send me your tactics again? I'm afraid I otherwise only have tactics from one gladiator from each fight.... |
| Caterane10-26-03, 02:23 PM | Initiating mail program... Modifying recipent... Synchronising mail... Executing subspace transmission... Tactics sent... |
| Caterane10-26-03, 02:30 PM | Hey Cat, you definately watch too much Star Trek |
| Caterane10-26-03, 02:31 PM | Aye. |
| Magagumo10-26-03, 02:42 PM | Thank you Cat! ^_^ |
| SnarkHunter10-26-03, 02:47 PM | Ok finished the lucient BtR fight and I'll post it later. But not till after I run the Ebelin, Ander fight. Why? Ive got crazy planned I tell you crazy! There was one thing about the fight that annoyed me though. Buying a dozen wands with only one charge in them. Doing this is superior in absolutely every way to buying equivalent scrolls. There's no Caster level check, they cost less and they don't draw AoO's to activate. Now Wands are always created with 50 charges. They can be sold for less, proportional to the number of charges remaining. This makes a lot of sense in campaigns for instance given the number of spellcasting foes scattered through out a given world that creat use and lose such items. In the Arena though its implausible and unbalancing. implausible becuase what are the odds that for a given wand exactly 49 charges have been used and then its available to be bought (oops this wand has one to many! Cast a wolf and I'll pick it up tomorrow.). Its unbalancing for the reasons I've listed above. I don't think partially charged items should be allowed for future fights. Thats all. |
| Tellish_of_Ket10-26-03, 02:49 PM | No mag, i understand what your saying. I'm just quoting directly from the phb p.157. I have that argument with dm's during LG every time i use it. " You can use ranged weapons while your mount is taking a double move, but at a -4 penalty on the attack roll. You can use ranged weapons while your mount is running (quadruple speed), at a -8 penalty. In either case, you make the attack roll when your mount has completed half its movement. You can make a full attack with a ranged weapon while your mount is moving. Likewise, you can take move actions normally, so that, for instance, you can load and fire a light crossbow in a round whie your mount is moving." Most ppl just read the melee part and think it applies to the ranged attacks as well. It doesn't. Tellish Ketite, mounted archer. :) |
| Magagumo10-26-03, 03:01 PM | Hmm, too true Tellish ^_^ I've learned quite a few things in the past two days.. (Like Impromptu Sneak Attack ignores Uncanny Dodge, as it doesn't specify flat-footedness). And in reference to Snark's post, well, this may seem like sour grapes, but he is right; Wands are cheaper and better than scrolls in every concievable fashion, to allow them to be purchased 1 charge at a time, allows for hideous abuses. |
| MotherBast10-26-03, 04:01 PM | ah, so I ran Cora right then. I'm smarter than I think I was, or am, or is, or whatever. Anyway...... Uhh.... right. Ok, bye. Oh, and I also vote no used charge items. |
| fluiddragon10-26-03, 04:09 PM | I think we should make a ruling on partialy charged wands. It is a very tempting strategy to use. But is also unbalancing. Take 1 level of wizard and go fighter all the way with heavy armor. Forget about casting your spells, just by a bunch of wands. No chance to miss-cast like a scroll, so you can cast higher level spells, all you need is the one level of wizard. I was going to majorly cheese out on these with Xaver after I saw someone else do it. I think if we allow partial charges it sould be at 25% 50% 75%. This is not un-reasonable and keeps scrolls as viable but also allows partialy charged items to be purchased. -fd |
| fluiddragon10-26-03, 04:11 PM | Do we have any rules for useing a scroll to learn a new spell for wizards? If so what is it? |
| Magagumo10-26-03, 04:25 PM | Scroll is not used up, and if the character makes the Spellcraft check (DC 15+spell level+bonuses from specialization, can take 10) they learn the spell with the cost of scribing it into their spell book (2 pages per spell level, 50 gp per page, so 100 gp per spell level). Perhaps 25% 50% and 75% charged items could be allowed... a 4th level wand will usually cost 5,250 to buy with 25% charges (which is 12.5, but I'm ignoring that for the moment ^_~) by 4th level, provded thay haven't spent more than 150 gp total to that point. Thus, we should say that 5th level is the most likely point to pick this up.- it remains half of their expenditure.. and the wand could eb sundered or disarmed... Since we allow high level scrolls, theoretically, being able to cast this 2 levels before a full cster could isnt terrible, though I dislike the idea of 1st lvl wizards, clerics, druids, sorcerors using them to this end... Honestly, we should put this to a vote, but I think 50% would be best, prevents true abuse you know (and wand crafters will be able to get 2x the charges for the same price as those who are buying them at 50%). |
| barrel_master10-26-03, 04:53 PM | http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1675660#post1675660 Candy vs. Pyre run.... it took much more time then I thought it would. |
| MotherBast10-26-03, 05:13 PM | humm.... perhaps saying don't use any other potions was a mistake. It was probably quite a mistake to try and repetadly rapid shot against the wizard, as I didn't antisapate him getting his AC so high. One little complaint though, just because you couldn't use any of my healing potions didn't mean you couldn't use my healing spell either. Not sure if I said to in my tactics though, so no biggie. |
| Caterane10-26-03, 05:14 PM | SCROLL IS NOT USED UP???? :headexplo Well, I guess in this case I have a few coins left, eh? |
| MotherBast10-26-03, 05:23 PM | Poor "Candy" (I like that nickname, btw). But I don't keep loosers in my stable. I'll give her one more chance to win, or its off to the dead pile with her. And her next one she has to win without invisability....... Why did I make a bard, what was I thinking? Reguardless of Candessa's win/lost record next week, I think I'm still gona introduce a new fighter soon. I think I'm gona try my hand at the Druid thing. Not sure yet. Good job on the fight barrel, I enjoyed reading it. It was definatly a learning experience for Candy. |
| Magagumo10-26-03, 05:29 PM | Yes, scrolls aren't used up, though you could also do it w/o the scroll, as I assume that these gladiators have access to magical libraries. Thusly, you could just make the chk, pay the gp, and put it straight into your spellbook w/o the scroll, then scribe it for cheaper ;) |
| Caterane10-26-03, 05:31 PM | That is a really really well-thought rule. I had to use all my cash for copying scrolls. I will add the amount of gold after the fight is finished |
| barrel_master10-26-03, 05:37 PM | MotherBast >> No one can be blamed for loosing that fight... it was your first time in the areana and quite frankly it's much diffrent from encounters in real D&D games... in a real game a bard is okay... they augment the group's strenth a great deal... unforunately, in the arena... there's no one else to boost. |
| LLMadCow10-26-03, 05:43 PM | Mo, a few things... 1. Lothar was never meant to be riding Billy II. That is why I said Round 1 - Run with Billy II, as opposed to ride. Billy II cannot support the weight of Lothar, and the penalties are sick when trying to fight. Lothar just drags Billy II along to soak potential sleep spells. Lothar took 6 points of falling damage. 2. Lothar was trying to attack from an unmounted position. This would have resulted in a hit in round 5. 3. Large Scorpion Venom - I understand that it is intended to be applied while in combat, but it was applied in combat. If you read the previous fight that Lothar was in, he applied the poison, made all necessary saves, and then died in combat. The axe never struck home, and so the poison was not used. 4. Lothar never used any of his potions of cure? Why not? This could have bought some time for closer combat in the end. 5. Lastly, I do not think that last attack should have hit (although I concede that I may be wrong) as Lothar has a flat-footed AC of 13 but this is neglecting DODGE which should (I think) be applied, bringing him up to 14. |
| sloisel10-26-03, 05:44 PM | Originally posted by Magagumo Yes, scrolls aren't used up, though you could also do it w/o the scroll, as I assume that these gladiators have access to magical libraries. Thusly, you could just make the chk, pay the gp, and put it straight into your spellbook w/o the scroll, then scribe it for cheaper ;) I guess that's a Core Arena house rule, because PHB179 says "The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment." Sébastien Loisel |
| Jindl10-26-03, 05:45 PM | Originally posted by Magagumo Yes, scrolls aren't used up, though you could also do it w/o the scroll, as I assume that these gladiators have access to magical libraries. Thusly, you could just make the chk, pay the gp, and put it straight into your spellbook w/o the scroll, then scribe it for cheaper ;) Yeah that would be great... Unfortunately its not true. From the PHB, pg 179: "If the <spellcraft> check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into her spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook, below). The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment." So scrolls are destroyed when copied into spellbooks. As for arcane casters automatically having access to all known arcane spells for copying purposes, I just don't think its fair. Finding a wizard to allow you to borrow their spellbook for several days to copy spells (remember its one spell per day) is a role-playing issue and should not be automatically allowed in the arena. Just my vote. -Jindl EDIT: sloisel beat me to the reply... |
| sloisel10-26-03, 05:47 PM | Originally posted by fluiddragon I think we should make a ruling on partialy charged wands. It is a very tempting strategy to use. But is also unbalancing. Take 1 level of wizard and go fighter all the way with heavy armor. Forget about casting your spells, just by a bunch of wands. No chance to miss-cast like a scroll, so you can cast higher level spells, all you need is the one level of wizard. I was going to majorly cheese out on these with Xaver after I saw someone else do it. I think if we allow partial charges it sould be at 25% 50% 75%. This is not un-reasonable and keeps scrolls as viable but also allows partialy charged items to be purchased. -fd You're refering to me. It's true that 1 charge wands are in many cases superior to scrolls for spells levels 1 through 4, however: 1) You can't have a wand with a spell of level 5 or above. 2) You can't copy a spell from a wand (hence scrolls are dual use and wands aren't.) I don't think there's anything wrong with 1 charge wands for those two reasons. Sébastien Loisel |
| Jindl10-26-03, 05:55 PM | On buying used wands/staves: I don't think we should allow characters to buy partially charged items. They can't create a partially charged item with a feat, so why should we let them purchase them. I know we haven't seen many wands at these low levels, but they're coming. And as Snark once said, the staves are coming soon too. No need to make these powerful items even better buy allowing people to buy them cheap. And could someone point me to where it says in the core rules that you can buy a partially charged wand or staff for less than full market value? -Jindl |
| Kukanil10-26-03, 05:56 PM | It dosnt really matter that you cant copy them. Being able to activate one minus an AOO is very nice, and they are still cheaper then scrolls are, wich is also very nice. What about Sorcs, who dont care about copying spells? They get a huge advantage from that. Also, I dont see how the Wands only working for lower level spells is a massive downside. You can still use them for all those other levels. Wands should only be aviable in 50%, 75%, and 100% increments. |
| Jindl10-26-03, 06:04 PM | Bruno vs Slefwee is posted. Hopefully its error free. Magagumo - I just got your email and so had already run the fight with the ventriloquism. Moherajikuyx - I had Slefwee use a scroll: see invisibility, even though it was not explicit in your tactics. I hope that is okay. Re: Partially charged wands Let me ask everyone here a question. If characters could buy wands at 50% charged, would anyone ever buy a wand with more than 50% of its charges. Now that you have all answered, no, then I ask you why should be allow characters to do this...? -Jindl |
| sloisel10-26-03, 06:13 PM | Originally posted by Jindl And could someone point me to where it says in the core rules that you can buy a partially charged wand or staff for less than full market value? -Jindl DMG214-215. Most staves, if they have effects in addition to just being able to cast spells, can't be bought at a discount for partial charges without a DM to adjudicate (again from DMG214-215.) Because of the way the core arena functions, it probably means that we can't buy staves with non-charge-related effects on the cheap in the arena. Sébastien Loisel |
| sloisel10-26-03, 06:20 PM | Originally posted by Jindl Re: Partially charged wands Let me ask everyone here a question. If characters could buy wands at 50% charged, would anyone ever buy a wand with more than 50% of its charges. Now that you have all answered, no, then I ask you why should be allow characters to do this...? This discussion is obviously about to spiral into spirited flamedom. I have two main reasons to oppose this changing of policy, unrelated to the usefulness of wands. The first is that I don't know how to fix my character now that he's bought a zillion wands. The second is that this is the core arena, and I'm against the principle of inserting house rules into the mix. As to your particular argument for modifying core rules, it can go both ways. Would anyone ever buy a fully charged wand? No? Then there's something obviously wrong with the cost of fully charged wands. Sébastien Loisel |
| fluiddragon10-26-03, 06:55 PM | I guess it was you. I thought it was a good idea too! But I also see the potential for abuse. Not much of a concern for thoose characters who can use them, but kinda unfair for the non-spell casting types. I just think we should have a yea or nay. If it continues to be a viable tactic I'll use it. It is one of those things though that we should get a ruleing on before the next round, so I can spend my cash accordingly. Good points about their drawbacks. 4th level spells or below, and can't use to copy to your books. Plus say you have 10 charges and it gets sundered. Your out, where a scroll is just 1 spell typically. As far as beliveability well, what spell casters are making all the other magic items we are seeing. Who's writting the scrolls we are buying? We can sell used items, so it is not inconceivable to belive there are used wands out there. It's about as beliveable as the rest of the magic item shop. -FD |
| fluiddragon10-26-03, 06:59 PM | I think it is time to vote on the wand issue. Before it becomes a flame war. -FD |
| Jindl10-26-03, 07:10 PM | Voting sounds good. BTW: I just noticed that the Elder should have gotten 2+6 = 8 skill points per level (I had only been using 6 skill points... duh!) I'll make this correction when I update him this week. Working on Bilo vs Moon-moon now... -Jindl |
| Kukanil10-26-03, 07:30 PM | I think partialy charged wands should NOT be allowed |
| MotherBast10-26-03, 07:34 PM | I've already voted once, but just to refresh, I also vote NO on partaly charged wands. (Even though Candessa will love it if the NO's don't win here) |
| sloisel10-26-03, 07:41 PM | Originally posted by fluiddragon It is one of those things though that we should get a ruleing on before the next round, so I can spend my cash accordingly. Well I'd be glad if that happened. Several pages back, way before this round, I asked exactly about this and nobody replied. About copying spells from another wizard, the rule in the PHB is 50GP per spell level (PHB179.) Has that also been houseruled out? Don't forget the 100GP per spell level and max of 100 spell levels per spellbook. (PHB179, 1 spell level=1 page.) Hence the cost for leeching a spell from some other wizard's spellbook is 150GP per spell level. You have to pay the 100GP per spell level even if you leech from a scroll. Sébastien Loisel |
| WolfWings10-26-03, 07:42 PM | ...what forms of shields can one use while reloading various crossbows, assuming feats like Rapid Reload and what-not. I.E. Could I 'sheath' a tower shield, rapid-reload for a free action, then re-wield the same tower shield again combined with a movement action to actually 'reload' a light crossbow with a tower shield as a full round w/ movement? =^.^= Random evilness abounds. :-) |
| Jindl10-26-03, 07:47 PM | Kukanil + MotherBast (and anyone else new to the arena)- We all appreciate your enthusiasm and willingness to vote on arena topics (like this wand issue.) Please place your votes on the polls thread (the link is at the top of page 1 of the builds thread). Each player is encouraged to post once (and only once) on the polls thread, and then to edit that post in order to vote on any current polls (there are two current polls at the moment, I'm sure the wand issue will become the third one.) Also, please list your current characters and the # of fights you are willing to moderate (look at my post as an example...) Thanks, and again I'm happy to see more people interested in voting!! -Jindl |
| Jindl10-26-03, 07:54 PM | Originally posted by WolfWings ...what forms of shields can one use while reloading various crossbows, assuming feats like Rapid Reload and what-not. I.E. Could I 'sheath' a tower shield, rapid-reload for a free action, then re-wield the same tower shield again combined with a movement action to actually 'reload' a light crossbow with a tower shield as a full round w/ movement? =^.^= Random evilness abounds. :-) WolfWings - I see no reason why you can't do this, unless "loosing" (or sheathing as you called it) a tower shield results in the shield laying on the ground. I couldn't find any rule stating this, but given the description of its size, I think many would rule that the only way to loose a Tower sheild is to set it on the ground. If this is the case, then it will be another standard action to pick it up. Again, I can't find any specific rules on this... -Jindl Of course, if you fire the crossbow while using the shield, then you get a -2 penalty for using one hand and a -2 penalty for wielding a tower shield... pretty hefty penalties for that extra AC, IMO. |
| WolfWings10-26-03, 08:01 PM | Originally posted by Jindl WolfWings - I see no reason why you can't do this, unless "loosing" (or sheathing as you called it) a tower shield results in the shield laying on the ground. I couldn't find any rule stating this, but given the description of its size, I think many would rule that the only way to loose a Tower sheild is to set it on the ground. If this is the case, then it will be another standard action to pick it up. Again, I can't find any specific rules on this... -Jindl Of course, if you fire the crossbow while using the shield, then you get a -2 penalty for using one hand and a -2 penalty for wielding a tower shield... pretty hefty penalties for that extra AC, IMO. More realistic comparison would be using a Hand Crossbow, really. Only the -2 penalty, which isn't that bad a penalty. And I'd honestly assume the PC would just pull their arm out of the brace on the tower shield, let it rest against their shoulder, and reload the crossbow before putting it back in the tower shield, so no, I wouldn't see the tower shield being dropped onto the ground, since it already rests on the ground half the time to begin with. Different question. The Heavy Shield says that hand can still be used to hold things, but not wield weapons, but doesn't specify if it can be used to, say, reload a crossbow that takes a free or move-equivilant action. Ditto on Light Shield, though it would be ignored in favor of a Buckler 99% of the time. |
| Jindl10-26-03, 08:50 PM | Originally posted by WolfWings More realistic comparison would be using a Hand Crossbow, really. Only the -2 penalty, which isn't that bad a penalty. And I'd honestly assume the PC would just pull their arm out of the brace on the tower shield, let it rest against their shoulder, and reload the crossbow before putting it back in the tower shield, so no, I wouldn't see the tower shield being dropped onto the ground, since it already rests on the ground half the time to begin with. Different question. The Heavy Shield says that hand can still be used to hold things, but not wield weapons, but doesn't specify if it can be used to, say, reload a crossbow that takes a free or move-equivilant action. Ditto on Light Shield, though it would be ignored in favor of a Buckler 99% of the time. I was referring to the -2 penalty to firing a light crossbow one handed (in the weapon description) which stacks with the -2 penalty to attacks for using a tower shield (in the tower shield description). Um, the heavy shield description says you can't use your shield hand for anything (not even holding stuff). Perhaps you are thinking of the light shield... IMO, reloading a weapon is the same as wielding it, for purposes of what type of shields allow you to do so...hence only the buckler would allow you to reload without loosing the shield. Still, a tower shield grants a lot of ac (+4 shield bonus, unenchanted...) |
| Tellish_of_Ket10-26-03, 09:19 PM | Wait a second, the move action that you are allowed to do while moving your horse, i specifically related to archery. It's all in the archery paragraph. You cannot for instance, load your crossbow as you mount moves up to your opponent, then draw your sword, then attack with sword. Attacking with a melee weapon while mounted is far different from attack with a missle weapon while mounted. The mounted combat section is very specific for melee. You only get your standard action to attack with. The reason you're allowed a move action when using archery, is because you actually have the time to load your crossbow while moving your mount...not sheath and unsheat items. All your attention is given to the fact that you are gonna shoot. You can't just single out a sentence, and apply it to everything else reltated to mounted combat. Otherwise archers wouldn't be able to do full attack actions because before you get to that part, you have to read past the part of taking the move action to control the mount and only getting a standard action to attack first. So the answer to sheathing and unsheathing the shield, the answer is really clearly, no. Unless you plan on throwing your shield and you have the quick draw, rapid shot feats and u wanna start shield tossing, i guess, but otherwise, nope. Tellish |
| Jindl10-26-03, 09:26 PM | To clarify, WolfWings is talking about rapid reloading a light crossbow while double moving on foot and using a shield. Start - crossbow is unloaded, shield is in use. Move action - move your movement + loose the shield. Free action - Now that both hands are free, rapid reload the crossbow. Move action - move your movement + ready the shield. Net result - you reloaded your crossbow while using the shield and doublemoving. You can do this because readying/loosing a shield can be combined with a move action if you have a BAB +1 or more. Of course, you still can't fire the crossbow during this round... but I'm sure if you keep working at it, you'll figure out a way :) -Jindl |
| Tellish_of_Ket10-26-03, 10:01 PM | Doh, my bad for misinterpreting what he was saying. Also, just something i've noticed in Candy vs. Pyre. Opposed checks are to be made at the time they happen. Not on the following round because the character wishes to spot or listen again. If they didn't hear them when the action was taken, then they can't just re-listen because no conditions existed for them to make new opposed checks. This is actually very important. Because as a stealthy spell caster, it's important to cast your spell BEFORE you move. Once you sneak away from where your opponent more than likely heard the direction it came from, but probably didn't beat your hide check to spot you, you can sneak away again safely. If you have been spotted, then all the sneaking in the world isn't going to help you unless you cover your escape with a smokestick or obscuring mist again, or have the hide in plain sight feat. I've just noticed that several times, a new hide/spot check (ex. could have been listen/ms) was rolled in the following round when no conditions existed to make one. The opposed should be made when the action happens. If a new condition exists for the person to see/listen the spellcaster (or other) then he makes the listen check as needed, but opposes the 'old' hide check last used to get there, not make a new one. Just thought i'd point that out. Tellish |
| SnarkHunter10-27-03, 12:31 AM | Thats a good point on the sneak/spot checks. I think its mainly a matter of bookkeeping for DM's in that its useful to have a characters actions described under their turn. Even if they actually occured elsewhen. I'd have to double check but I think generally I've been having gladiators make checks for each situation, but not everysingle turn if nothing new happens. Hmm thems the rules for spell copying? Have to do some editing myself then. |
| sloisel10-27-03, 01:10 AM | Originally posted by SnarkHunter Ok finished the lucient BtR fight and I'll post it later. But not till after I run the Ebelin, Ander fight. Why? Ive got crazy planned I tell you crazy! Somehow I missed your post. Thanks for running the fight. There was one thing about the fight that annoyed me though. Buying a dozen wands with only one charge in them. Sorry! Sébastien Loisel |
| Imizael10-27-03, 02:15 AM | Once again sry for delay.I wasn't home at the weekend and i didn't know that earlier.I will post the fight about 17:00 central europe time. |
| LLMadCow10-27-03, 03:52 AM | Does the +1 AC bonus from the feat Dodge get added to being flat-footed? I know this is a rules question, but I cannot find the answer in the books... |
| Tellish_of_Ket10-27-03, 04:39 AM | Nope. Because if you were flat-footed you did not have time to designate a target for your dodge. It actually does say in the feat description LL, that it's during your action that you designate an oppponent. Also, just to note if you opponent then becomes invisible you lose your doge bonus against him/her. Even if he/she were to sneak attack you. Any condition that makes you lose your dex modifer, you also lose the dodge bonus. So, in another example, rogue A has improved fient, and you fall for the "Your shoe laces are undone" trick, you also lose your dodge bonus even though you can still see him. Tellish *EDIT @ Wolfwings. I noticed your new character has 4 feats as a 2nd lvl fighter Gnome. Improved Init 1st lvl character Rapid reload 1st fighter bonus weapon focus 2nd fighter bonus point blank shot ?!? I may have missed something. Just wondering where the 4th feat came from. Tellish |
| Moherajikuyx10-27-03, 05:06 AM | Jindl - I didn't write to use Exp. Retr. at first turn because that would have been a lost round, as happened. LL - Sorry about making Lothar ride; I saw a mount, no handle animal skill and max ride: you should say that clearly. I don't think Billy would follow you, with no handle animal and negative charisma. Anyways, in this instance, if Lothar didn't ride, he would have died sleeping, have never attacked, and have never had the possibility of using his potions: he awoke only thanks to the fall. Dodge boni are lost when flat footed. Partially charged wands - this has been discussed and already rejected in the past. I'll write it clearly on the rules, my bad for not doing it already. Sheating and drawing shields - I'm pretty sure that shields require more than a move action to provide AC, because they have to be put into the correct position and correctly fixed. I remember it but not the rule place, so as usual I might be wrong. |
| WolfWings10-27-03, 06:22 AM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket @ Wolfwings. I noticed your new character has 4 feats as a 2nd lvl fighter Gnome. Improved Init 1st lvl character Rapid reload 1st fighter bonus weapon focus 2nd fighter bonus point blank shot ?!? I may have missed something. Just wondering where the 4th feat came from. Okay, looked it over. And, um... it's a 2nd-level Fighter. Bonus feat at 1st and snd level. I made a typo and left in the Imp.Init entry for the Init-bonus, when I removed the feat itself. Realized it was a wasted feat for this build. :-) |
| WolfWings10-27-03, 06:32 AM | Originally posted by Jindl Net result - you reloaded your crossbow while using the shield and doublemoving. You can do this because readying/loosing a shield can be combined with a move action if you have a BAB +1 or more. Of course, you still can't fire the crossbow during this round... but I'm sure if you keep working at it, you'll figure out a way :) BINGO! And actually... if I got Hasted, I believe I could then fire the crossbow once, at my full BAB. So I'd get to double-move, and fire one ranged attack every round, with a rather massive non-magical AC. I may have to try that build, just for the amusement factor of mobility with a huge AC, at the cost of RoF. Amusingly, I don't even need much Strength for the build, mostly Dex and Int. (Craft Mithril Full Plate at 4th level for 5250gp, so up to Dex 16 applies in full. Couple with a Darkwood Shield, and actually have very little weight carried. Do it on a Small class, life's even better.) |
| Caterane10-27-03, 06:42 AM | Originally posted by Jindl As for arcane casters automatically having access to all known arcane spells for copying purposes, I just don't think its fair. Finding a wizard to allow you to borrow their spellbook for several days to copy spells (remember its one spell per day) is a role-playing issue and should not be automatically allowed in the arena. Muahahahahaha Ok Mo, let's open a new "Roleplaying thread" where we can play out aquiring scrolls. Perhaps we can even go adventuring during our fight breaks and find cool stuff! Oh and Jindl, in this case we should also roleplay if your god grants you any spells for I'm not sure if you actually use them to promote nature Originally posted by Sloisel Would anyone ever buy a fully charged wand? No? Then there's something obviously wrong with the cost of fully charged wands. Well, I think no one would buy a decanter of endless water either so should we houserule it? No. Some items (including wands) are not meant to be used in a one-fight-per-week arena. They are adventuring equipment but that doesn't mean we have to change anything. Asides, Snark clearly displayed the unbalancing symptoms if we allow partially charged wands. @all: What are the arena rules for copying scrolls? Now, may I keep the scroll or not? Or how much costs copying a spell from a spellbook? |
| Tellish_of_Ket10-27-03, 06:55 AM | Originally posted by WolfWings BINGO! And actually... if I got Hasted, I believe I could then fire the crossbow once, at my full BAB. So I'd get to double-move, and fire one ranged attack every round, with a rather massive non-magical AC. Haste now only gives you an extra attack if you're using the full attack action. So your scenario is not possible. Nice thought though. Tellish |
| WolfWings10-27-03, 07:02 AM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket Haste now only gives you an extra attack if you're using the full attack action. So your scenario is not possible. Nice thought though. Yeah, you're right. It would have worked in 3.0, but they changed it so you don't get any extra actions out of Haste except for a Full Attack. Man that is one helluva nerf. =O.o= |
| WolfWings10-27-03, 07:03 AM | Originally posted by Caterane Well, I think no one would buy a decanter of endless water either so should we houserule it? No. Don't make me build someone that uses a Decanter as their primary means of attack. =^.^= |
| Galamdring10-27-03, 07:17 AM | Just a smal note on this weekend fight. Mara is using a Halberd ( 10ft reach ), so my opponent couldn't have attacked me with his greatsword before my attack during the charge. Other than that, great description... :) |
| MotherBast10-27-03, 08:06 AM | Ok, I have a question. I bought a Potion of see invis for Brakin with his winnings. However, as I was scanning over the rules this morning, I noticed it says potions are only alowed if they are in a prented sorce. Potions of See Invis arn't listed on the "random treasure" potion list, but it does say that any spell up to 3rd level with less than 1 minute of casting time can be a potion. So, my question then is can I buy a potion of see invis since the potion isent specificaly listed, but clearly falls into the available potion area? |
| Caterane10-27-03, 08:06 AM | @WW: ...which would be? |
| Moherajikuyx10-27-03, 08:16 AM | MB - Nope sorry, gatta use that ears... To build potions you have to use Craft Potions. Find the existing potions on the SRD (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/MagicItemsIII.rtf). |
| Jindl10-27-03, 08:17 AM | Originally posted by Galamdring Just a smal note on this weekend fight. Mara is using a Halberd ( 10ft reach ), so my opponent couldn't have attacked me with his greatsword before my attack during the charge. Other than that, great description... :) According to the PHB, a halberd is not a reach weapon. Its basically a greataxe that can trip and be set against a charge. But it does not have reach. It is one of my favorite weapons though... I'm glad you enjoyed the fight! -Jindl |
| fluiddragon10-27-03, 08:22 AM | Potions of invisibility are listed printed in the SRD on the table of potions. Note potions of shield are not and thus not allowed. If you have the brew potion feat you can make a potion of shield, but you can not buy it. |
| Jindl10-27-03, 08:34 AM | @ MotherBast - as the rules stand now, a character can't buy any potions that are not listed in the DMG, so no potion of see invis. Having been faced with the same problem, my characters are looking for ways to improve their spot/listen (like eyes of the eagle, or lots of skill points) or ways to use allies that have the scent ability. Anyway, a nonspellcaster with enough money could get a see invisibility+permanancy cast upon them... @ Cat - I had posted a quote from the PHB earlier that stated the the process of copying a scroll into a spellbook destroys the scroll. So I think you may have lost those scrolls. As for allowing wizards to copy spells from other NPC wizards, well we could vote on it. I wouldn't have too much of an issue using the PHB suggested cost of 50gp per spell level... but that same section of the PHB says wizards wouldn't allow this for "high level" spells. Who's to say what "high level" means? At what spell level will the PC wizards be unable to copy from the NPC wizards. Its really rather vague. I suppose everyone could vote on this copying from NPC's issue (but I think the fact that copying a scroll destroys the scroll is pretty well explained in the PHB.) I'm sure the Elder would love to be able to copy spells from NPC wizards (FYI: He's saving up money to make a Blessed Book = no more 100 gp per page fee...) :) @ Mo - Sorry if you didn't want to use expeditious retreat that early. I had a hard time understanding the sequence of your tactics (you said to do a lot of things, I was not clear on the exact order to do them in...) I had Slefwee use expeditious in the first round so that 1) he could reach the protection of cover right away and 2) he would have the mobility to escape if pressed into close combat. As it stands, the retreat effect lasted the whole fight anyway. It was a difficult fight to moderate as I had a tough time interpreting tactics (on both sides) and some things happened that were not covered in tactics... so when these things happened I tried to act in the most intelligent way I could, and in the way that most fit the spirit/history of the character. My apologies if that wasn't exactly the order/etc that you wanted Slefwee to use. -Jindl |
| MotherBast10-27-03, 08:47 AM | Ok, I just deleted the word "see" and changed it to a potion of invisability. I have updated both of my fighters now, and both should be ready for combat this week. My 3rd entry wont be ready in time, as I'm still unsure of a direction for him. Every time I get an idea I check the build bords and it already exists. I thought monk/druid, but its been done, then I was gona do an elf fighter with a spike chain, but it was also done. Then I decided to just do a clasic archer ranger, but there were already 2...... I want my characters to stand out, and its difficult to seprate from the crowd, if the crowd has faces just like yours. Only so many ideas can exist and be viable in a core only thread. With like 40 gladiators already compeating, it becomes extreamly difficult to be orriginal..... Anyway, sorry for that off topic rant. |
| Magagumo10-27-03, 09:08 AM | Ahh.. I always manage to come in a few pages after the posts to which I would respond :). I do see the loss of scroll thing now, this is what i get for never checking myself and thus believing fellow Moderators (who I'm sure do this just to fool and spite me ^_~). I will edit Bruno to take into account the two scrolls he obviously purchased to scribe into his spellbook... and I must investigate this Blessed Book now, Jindl, sounds very appealing... To sloisel, since it seems the 1 charge wands are being deemed invalid, I don't belive it would be a problem for you to simply remove them from your character sheet at full price, since they never should have existed in the first place ;). Then you can supplement them with some nice scrolls or other goodies. Congrats on the fight, I'm sure a scroll of SNIV would have been equally effective, and it's simply very difficult to live when 5 wolves and their Large cousin are attemtpting to rip your throat out ^_^;;; And as a final note, Boccob bless the nerfing of haste... 3 Time Stops in a row caused me to forever hate the extra partial action :-P Oh, two things I wished to note : (Post-Script) One, some of us (myself included) have allowed the retrieving of stored items, other than weapon-like ones (potions and scrolls for example) as the character moves. I have been duly informed that such an action can occur only with weapons, shields, wands, staves, tanglefoot bags, flasks of acid or fire, and other weapon-like items. Not sure if this was messing anyone else up, but I thought I'd mention it. Two, as people start to buy Headband of Intelligence (or their equivalents on other parts of the body,) do remeber that these items do not add to your skill points per level.. I belive this was changhed in 3.5, but it's entirely possible I've been wrong for several years ^_~. That is all. |
| WolfWings10-27-03, 09:20 AM | Quick question... if gloves of storing can only hold weapons... why do they specifically list storing lit torches and other non-magical items in the glove? Seems you're making a house-rule on that one, as the gloves of storing are, by design, meant to hold anything that doesn't have a magical duration on it, from a potion to a wand to a lit torch, the last one being explicitly listed as an option in the DMG entry for the magic-item in question. |
| WolfWings10-27-03, 09:27 AM | Specific quote since the RSRD has fewer words than the actual 3.5 DMG. Bold text is the missing text in the SRD, that seems to say anything can be stored in the glove. This device is a simple leather glove. On command, one item help in the hand wearing the glove disappears. The item can weigh no more than 20 pounds and must be able to be held in one hand. While stored, the item has negligible weight. With a snap of the fingers wearing the glove, the item reappears. A glove can only store one item at a time. Storing or retrieving the item is a free action. The item is held in stasis and shrunk down so small within the palm of the glove that it cannot be seen. Many owners of a glove of storing find it to be a useful and dramatic way to store weapons, wands, and - because the item is stored in stasis - even lit torches. Spell durations are not suppressed, but continue to expire. If an effect is suppressed or dispelled, the stored item appears instantly. |
| Moherajikuyx10-27-03, 09:48 AM | Lev. 3 Kern Tel'Kar, Kukanil vs. Kelek, Tellish_of_Ket: Imizael Buttmunch the Ridiculous, sloisel vs. Lucient Noctern, Magagumo: SnarkHunter Lev. 5 Jindl, Jindl vs. Imitril, Imizael: Magagumo Ander Brogaden, Magagumo vs. Ebelin Barnahdy, Caterane: SnarkHunter Lev. 6 Skymoon Moonbow, SnarkHunter vs. Bilo Darkleaf, SnarkHunter: Jindl Come on guys, if we manage to do these by tomorrow, we'll do the pairings wednesday and recover fully from last week delays. |
| Irlina10-27-03, 09:52 AM | @WolfWings: Well, sorry with the problems for the fight, but I left last wednesday to Spain and didn't have any Internetaccess till today. To be honest I'm not all to happy with the fight (hiding till spell expires is a even lousier tactic as my "flying high enough not be hit" ;) ), but I couldn't write a proper one for this fight, so I had to write a general one on Tuesday). But thank you for running it, I can't complain since you properly run it! @Copying spells: When everyone can buy everything at standard price (even with Charisma 8 or (often) lower) I don't doubt anyone should be able to find a wizard nice enough to allow copying of spells for 100gp/spell level. |
| Moherajikuyx10-27-03, 10:07 AM | Sorry, the "copy among spellcasters' books" is a roleplay question and as such, not covered in an arena. Wizards have their advantages and disadvantages; one of these is the costs. |
| LLMadCow10-27-03, 10:09 AM | GO VOTE on the Core Arena Polls (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1631892#post1631892) thread. There are always new things to vote on, and there are currently 2 new topics. Topic #3 - Should we allow the purchase of partially charged items, i.e. a wand with 5 charges, or a ring of 1 wish, etc. Topic #4 - Would you allow the Spellcasting part of Equipment, to have spellcasters casting spells for money on the gladiators? (The 24+ hour buffs?) |
| Magagumo10-27-03, 10:09 AM | In regard to scribing scrolls, Bruno has been listed as purchasing the scrolls necessary to do so, I will adjust him as necessary to the boads final decision on scribing scrolls (After all, as gladiators, wouldn't we be given access to a magical library? The fighters have access to blacksmiths who are repairing their stuff for free. ;) And what about those nice druids who lend our combatants their animal companions when they die? :-P Anyways, we've avoided role-playing issues before now, I'm not sure why we should start bringing it up just against wizards.) Jindl, if you save that 12.5k necessary to buy that Blessed Book, I say scribe on into oblivion!! :-D Due to the email issue, I still do not have Imitril's tactics, if he doesn't get them to me by tomorrow evening, I'm going to have to run him by base tactics (and that's bad for any wizard). Please try to get them to me! Edit Unfortunately, See Invisibility cannot be cast upon other creatures (as per the Permanancy spell), only Enlarge Person, Magic Fang, Greater Magic Fang, Rary's Telepathic Bond, Reduce Person, and Resistance can be made permanant on other creatures, and can be dispelled as normal (if you cast Permanacy and a spell on yourself, the dispel magic must beat the caster check of Permanancy, not the other spell). For ease of our higher level comabatants, I willbe lisitng the prices of the above-listed spells ina following post. |
| Tellish_of_Ket10-27-03, 10:17 AM | Originally posted by Magagumo One, some of us (myself included) have allowed the retrieving of stored items, other than weapon-like ones (potions and scrolls for example) as the character moves. I have been duly informed that such an action can occur only with weapons, shields, wands, staves, tanglefoot bags, flasks of acid or fire, and other weapon-like items. Not sure if this was messing anyone else up, but I thought I'd mention it. Then you've been doing it correct all along, Mag. It was ALWAYS (even in 3.0) a move action to retrieve a handly stored item. My biggest peeve has always been (and i've said it here before) people start reading a section of paragraph, then upon reading a portion of it, stop reading the rest and apply it to the whole. Taking a potion from my belt, and putting it back are move actions. It was (and still is) a standard action to retrieve an item from a backpack. Now what adventurer in his/her right mind is gonna carry their emergency items in a pack where it does them no good? Scrolls/potions are always "assumed" to be on your belt, bandolier, tied to a piece of twine under your armpit for cryin' out loud unless specifically stated... "uhm, no...it's in my pack. So i die." "Nah, i always keep my cure potions in my backpack. That way i can't get to them in time when i need them." "I'm a recovering cure-light-wound-a-holic. I keep them in my mules saddlebags, which i tethered outside the dungeon before adventuring in here." On that note. Drawing ammunition is a free action. Could you see EVERY archer needing to take the quick draw feet just so they could use rapid shot or many shot? I don't think so, so same kinda rule applies. . Good news though, shuriken are now considered ammunition. So lets all save up for those flame burst/shocking burst/returning shuriken. Talk about an endless supply of ammo, eh? Tellish *EDIT there i go ranting again and missed to say something important to my argument. Add to the end of the first paragraph, "According to the definitions of improvised weapons." there. done. Tellish. |
| Magagumo10-27-03, 10:32 AM | Hehe, forgot about the bets and bandoliers, but don't forget that returning only occurs before your next round, so you'd need as many of those enchanted items as you can throw ^_^;; at 8k a piece minimum.... I once looked at a orc shotputter who used a returning, distance weapon (w/ Far shot, it's still only 30' range increments, but 2d6 19-20/x3 weapons can still be good). But I just didn't like the idea of having to purchase up to 5 (18k) weapons by 16th level, it seemed a bit more than it was worth. So, instead, the halfogre NPC of 9 levels simply had 40 Large Shotputs lying about the perimeter of his ship ^_^ Ok, here are the prices: Enlarge Person: (Perm- 450 gp + 2500 xp/gp + 10 gp)= 2960 gp Magic Fang: (Perm- 450 gp + 2500xp/gp + 10 gp)= 2960 gp Greater Magic Fang: (Perm- 550 gp + 7500 xp/gp + 150 gp)=8200gp Rary's Tele Bond: (Perm- 650 gp + 12500 xp/gp + 450 gp)=13600 gp Reduce Person: (Perm- 450 gp + 2500 xp/gp + 10 gp)= 2960 gp Resistance: (Perm- 450 gp + 2500 xp/gp + 10 gp)= 2960 gp Now, if you can cast the other spell, you can disregard the 3rd price (for example, a druid must supply the magic fang, so Mr. Kobold could cast the Greater Magic Fang himself upon 5th level). As for the resistance, Cloaks are better, but don't forget our familiars, companions, and mounts :) Edit: Prices are fixed. BTW, I assume the spells would be restored at the end of combat, just as a sundered item or weapon would be. For those who want better Greater Magic Fangs, it will be 30 gp x caster level |
| barrel_master10-27-03, 10:48 AM | Question for you dudes... Can a player use their standard action to move but still suffer a '0' penalty on move silently checks? |
| Tellish_of_Ket10-27-03, 10:57 AM | Yeah, i had a rogue use them once. Since he only get's sneak within 30', what the heck. Mithril orcish shotputs. hmmm? I guess if we're going for sillyness how about the whole burst tree of enchantments, returning caber? You'd hit everything in a 10' square (that's 4 squares) for 2d6+ enchantments, plus a chance to bounce them 5' furthere back. And the caber returns next round. So, you'd never really have to carry more than two. lol. Anyhow, i voted on both topics, NO! Though i'm sure most everyone has thought of the purchasing of outside spell casters. It's right there in the phb. when you're buying your kit, so i'm sure most everyone has gone...hmmm? interesting! But leave it to buttmunch though to buy nearly drained wands. That's a good one. Tellish |
| Jindl10-27-03, 11:03 AM | @ Magagumo - My bad on Tommy II's AC, I was using the Hawk entry in the MM, and I neglected to count the +2 natural armor for being a 4th lvl familiar (but hey, I neglected to give Lady Hawk the same bonus, so at least its even...) As for Blessed Book = its only 8333 gp to make one... :) That means after I scribe 84 levels of spells I'll start to save money. I probably won't make one until at least 7th level. -Jindl |
| LLMadCow10-27-03, 11:03 AM | Can you break these prices down some more.... Enlarge Person: (Perm- 1125gp + 2500 xp/gp + 25 gp)= 3650 gp Magic Fang: (Perm- 1125gp + 2500xp/gp + 25 gp)= 3650 gp Greater Magic Fang: (Perm- 1375gp + 7500 xp/gp + 375 gp)= 9200 gp Rary's Tele Bond: (Perm- 1625gp + 12500 xp/gp + 875gp)= 15000 gp Reduce Person: (Perm- 1125gp + 2500 xp/gp + 25 gp)= 3650 gp Resistance: (Perm- 1125gp + 2500 xp/gp + 25 gp)= 3650 gp 1125 base? I have 9th level caster; 1st level spell and 5th level spell; (9 x 10gp) + (9 x 50gp) = 540gp + (Whatever the XP expenditure costs) = ??? |
| Tellish_of_Ket10-27-03, 11:04 AM | Originally posted by barrel_master Question for you dudes... Can a player use their standard action to move but still suffer a '0' penalty on move silently checks? Not sure i'm understanding the nature of the question, but i'll try to answer it. If a player wants to move during his/her standard action, they may. And they may move silently at half their speed and suffer no penalty for doing so. If for example, i were to move to get behind some kind of cover as to break line of sight with my opponent, then use my second action (which would be my standard) i would begin to sneak away at half my move, i would not incur any penalties for h/ms. That would be 15' for most humanoid races, 30' if under the effects of expeditious retreat. I could opt to move 30'/60' and accept a -5 to my check, or if i want to charge at him full out and sneak attack him unawares, it would be done at -20. Hope that helps you a bit. Tellish |
| Jindl10-27-03, 11:12 AM | @ LLMadCow - Your pricing is (almost) correct: its 450 (permanancy) + 10 (enlarge person) + 2500gp (for xp cost) = 2960 gp. Magagumo was giving prices based on buying scrolls to make permamant. (Spell level x caster level x 25 gp). BTW: 5 gp = 1 xp. Keep in mind though, that it would only take a caster level 9 to dispel that permanent enlarge person. So you might want to opt for the more expensive, 20th level caster version... -Jindl EDIT: Remember that dispel checks work on the caster level of permanancy, therefore enlarge person can be cast at a caster level 1. |
| Magagumo10-27-03, 11:19 AM | Hmm, it's only 10 gp x caster level and spell level? Where does it say that, I'm very intrigued for future deviousness.. :) Edit: nevermind, found it... I will make corrections to my list posthaste (as well as several off-board characters ^_^) |
| Jindl10-27-03, 11:33 AM | Regarding permanent spells: Greater Magic Fang will probably be more expensive, as you will likely want more than a caster level 5 for the Fang part (why only get a +1 bonus, when a higher caster level gives a +2, etc...) Also, Magagumo, I wouldn't think that dispelled permanency things would be restored. Much like scrolls and potions, I view them as one shot items. If you want something that can be repaired, buy a magic item. Thanx for posting that list, btw :) -Jindl |
| Magagumo10-27-03, 11:38 AM | I agree on the Greater Magic Fang requiring a higher level (though +1 to all natural weapons is useful for bear shapers and the like), but I'm still not sure about coonsidering them one-shots. After all, they would exist forever, provided they weren't dispelled, just as weapons would last (theoretically) forever, if they aren't sundered. I think we'd be punishing people if we allow the permanant spell to be destroyed so easily, so I do honestly think that they should be restored upon ressurection. After all, they are already easy to disable with dispel magic, why make them lose 1000s of gold pieces when they could have just drank a potion, I say let them keep it :)). |
| Jindl10-27-03, 11:56 AM | Mag- Making them one shots just encourages them to use caster level 20 for the permanancy portion... -Jindl |
| MotherBast10-27-03, 12:25 PM | Ahhh....... I've been checking the boards since last night. No new fights posted yet. I'm going crazy with antisipation. Come on people, I wana know who wins!!!!!!!!! |
| Caterane10-27-03, 12:51 PM | Great! I just wanted to add a new HUMAN PALADIN and now Barrel Master posts that Paul dude. Perhaps I`ll still post him or make him Aasimar |
| barrel_master10-27-03, 02:00 PM | ^Sorry dude. BTW... how is the 'Harvester' true neutral? His job is to harvest souls... that sounds pretty evil to me. Yeah, thanks for answering my move/silent question. |
| sloisel10-27-03, 02:11 PM | This is a request for clarification. I think I've seen one or two fights where a caster failed to activate a scroll and the scroll vanished. This isn't as per DMG, which says that if you fail the caster level check the scroll doesn't activate, and the magical writings on the scroll only disappear if you activate a scroll. (I'm not talking about mishaps here.) So which one's the official core arena rule in here? Sébastien Loisel |
| sloisel10-27-03, 02:43 PM | I missed the following the first time around: Originally posted by Magagumo Congrats on the fight, I'm sure a scroll of SNIV would have been equally effective, and it's simply very difficult to live when 5 wolves and their Large cousin are attemtpting to rip your throat out ^_^;;; You must've emailed snark. I guess I can update my character for the next fight. Sébastien Loisel |
| Caterane10-27-03, 02:43 PM | Originally posted by Barrel_master: Sorry dude. BTW... how is the 'Harvester' true neutral? His job is to harvest souls... that sounds pretty evil to me. 1) How is Paul lawful good when he's going to kill other (even good-aligned) people for money? 2) The FR deity of death is neutral, the Greyhawk deity of death is neutral, Death itself is neutral 3) I wrote "unknown" and for gameplaying purposes only he is considered neutral. You can let your imagination fly on this. Sorry dude |
| SnarkHunter10-27-03, 03:33 PM | Sloisel vs. Lucient fight posted. I was reticent to do so before becuase I had introduced the two commentors HJ, NV, in the Ander Ebelin fight. But it looks like (sorry) I won't be able to finish that one till Tuesday, so you'll have to make do with this till then! For the record:The arena is pleased to introduce Naeregon Vulpus; Lover, fighter, Pit Fiend and master chef. And Harmonious Jade Planetar, Symbol of honor, battle, and the Chosen warrior of Erbauer the Just. Enjoy! |
| Prexx10-27-03, 03:36 PM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket Haste now only gives you an extra attack if you're using the full attack action. So your scenario is not possible. Nice thought though. Tellish This one is from a few posts back. Anyways. I think that WW would still be able to achieve the desired effect through the use of haste. The 3.0 version of haste did not enhance your overland speed, whereas the 3.5 version does. I believe he was trying to fire a shot, then double move away, which would "sort of" be possible because haste increases your speed by +30 so that in a single move-equivalent action, he could move the same as he normally could using the double move action. Thus accompishing the "double move and fire a shot" idea. And if he utilized the Shot on the Run feat, he could start his round behind full cover, pop out and tag his opponent, then move back behind full cover in the same round. |
| barrel_master10-27-03, 04:19 PM | Fair enough cat. |
| Magagumo10-27-03, 04:33 PM | Well Jindl, i just wonder if making them buy 20th level Permanecy is not akin to suggesting that people make all their weaponry, equipment, and armor out of adamantine, just so they won't have to worry about sunderers. Seems like blaming the victim to me ;) Since the permanant spells cast on other creatures can actually be dispelled without going after permanency (vulnerable to dispel magic as normal), they tend to vanish rather quickly. Only if you cast permanancy does the dispel magic have to be cast at a level equal to the caster of permanency, so this only affects the wizards (and perhaps sorcerors) of our fair arena, everyone else suffers no matter the caster level of Permanency. |
| LLMadCow10-27-03, 04:33 PM | Quote of PREXX on the Core Arena Polls thread 4) No. I believe Irlina makes a good point. 600gp for a 1 fight +5 magical weapon is far too inexpensive. This would cause serious issues with game balance. There are a few other issues, such as anybody being capable of having permanent magical effects placed upon them. An ability that I feel should be reserved for sorcerers/wizards. There is NO WAY that a +5 magical weapon would cost so little. What we are looking at are pricey expenditures for permanent enchantments on people and/or items. There is always the issue of the XP cost for the person casting the spell. If we go with the 1xp costs 5g, as Jindl posted, then that adds up. Also consider this - thus far the arena DOES NOT allow custom items to be built, so why would the arena allow custom permanency? There is a list in the book of what is allowed and recommended and if we stick with that then we should be fine... |
| Caterane10-27-03, 04:45 PM | Hey come on. Where`s the point in being a wizard when everyone can have boost spells cast upon him and throwing arcane spells from 1-charge-wands with this single level of spellcaster? If you play a fighter you have to buy magic weapons. Else the spellcaster you hired to boost you won the fight and not you. |
| Jindl10-27-03, 04:49 PM | Originally posted by Caterane Hey come on. Where`s the point in being a wizard when everyone can have boost spells cast upon him and throwing arcane spells from 1-charge-wands with this single level of spellcaster? If you play a fighter you have to buy magic weapons. Else the spellcaster you hired to boost you won the fight and not you. Cat- you're the man. I especially like your last sentence... :rofl: -Jindl |
| WolfWings10-27-03, 04:51 PM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket "Nah, i always keep my cure potions in my backpack. That way i can't get to them in time when i need them." Just a quick note... unless it's in a Handy Haversack, which has officially been Errata'ed as being a free action to retrieve anything from. Yes, the Haversack is now a Glove of Storing on Steroids, but like a Bag of Holding unsafe to use with anything sharp or pointed. I.E. A great place to keep your Barrel of Cure Light Wounds. (6400gp, 128 doses) |
| Caterane10-27-03, 06:29 PM | Sloisel seems a bit confused these days. He just answered on the Polls thread. No drugs here, Sloisel! |
| sloisel10-27-03, 07:25 PM | D'oh. Thanks for pointing that out, Caterane. Snark said: Abilities: S14, D16, C15, I2, W12, C6 I do believe you have another stat point in here, from the wolf getting 4 hitdice. I won’t assign it though. I somehow had the idea that we didn't get bonus stat points from increased companion HD, because it's not explicitly listed as a benefit in the Animal Companion sidebar in the PHB. Am I wrong? Sébastien Loisel |
| Imizael10-27-03, 07:51 PM | Hi. fight posted - it isnt what u hope for but i had to do it this way. I have to quit the arena.The main reason is school (parents ). see u soon i hope. Thanks to everyone for great fun. sorry that fights i posted were crappy. |
| Magagumo10-27-03, 09:39 PM | Hmm, as far as I know, animal companions do not get stat increases from bonus HD. It mentions that they get skill points and feats, but I assume that since they do not explicitely state that they get stat points (unlike the description of player characters in the beginning of the PHB) I would say no. I'm sorry to hear that you must leave, Imizael, I will run your fight with Jindl just so something is resolved. Edit: Hmm, alright, Imizael doesn't have any tactics down. Do I just hand the win to Jindl? Or do I play crazy, rampaging Imitril until he collapses? I do believe Jindl will win.. but I will try and make it a fair fight if no one minds ;) Of course, there's the matter of memorized spells, but I'll see what happens. |
| sloisel10-27-03, 09:45 PM | Originally posted by Imizael Hi. fight posted - it isnt what u hope for but i had to do it this way. I have to quit the arena.The main reason is school (parents ). see u soon i hope. Thanks to everyone for great fun. sorry that fights i posted were crappy. Farewell. Sébastien Loisel |
| barrel_master10-27-03, 11:01 PM | Originally posted by Imizael Hi. fight posted - it isnt what u hope for but i had to do it this way. I have to quit the arena.The main reason is school (parents ). see u soon i hope. Thanks to everyone for great fun. sorry that fights i posted were crappy. It's understandable... from the sound of things... you put in some effort into these fights... which is, at least, respectable. |
| Magagumo10-27-03, 11:30 PM | Fight will be posted in two seconds. Hate to give the win away.. but I hope it is at least entertaining ^_~. BTW, Jindl won :-P |
| Jindl10-28-03, 12:03 AM | Mmm, mindflayer tactics... The fight everyone has been waiting anxiously to read... Bilo Darkleaf vs Skymoon Moonbow is posted. Somebody will die in this one... -Jindl |
| SnarkHunter10-28-03, 12:21 AM | Rats I lost. Hurrah I won! ... yeah. |
| Tellish_of_Ket10-28-03, 12:24 AM | Hey, what better fight to critique than your own right? I see that Imazeal will no longer be joining us. Have a good one bud. Take care, and hope you come back soon. For those that will read the fight and read these comments, just a few things i wanna point out. Kelek moves closer and hide (ms 12+7 h 20!+15) Kern tryies to spot his enemy again (listen 2+4-12 , spot impossible to succed ) and he moves forward. Kelek exp.retreat (4/10) mage armor Kern Sof (4/20) divine favor (3/20). Kelek shot with his crossbow and hide immedietly (h:4+15-20,attack 19+5 vs ac 20 , dmg 1 , save vs poison 13+8 vs dc 13 ) Kern was very lucky as the bolt only scratch him. He tryies to spot his enemy (16+4-8distance vs 19) but he fails so he moves keeps moving forward. When i shot, my previous hide check is the one that should have been used. The one of 20+15 = 35. Subtract 20 from that for shooting = 15. Plus no cover bonuses were added to the hide check. Kern get's an immediate new spot check because i shot. When i start to sneak away again, he gets yet another new spot check because conditions were created to allow for another one. (by me moving) from my tactics: If he's within 100', cast true strike and fire x-bow bolt. If he's still 60' away after that. Cast true strike, h/ms keeping away from him. Reload and shoot again. I think i got VERY lucky with the crossbow shots because in my tactics i stated that i wanted to cast true strike before each shot. Also, Kern should have lost his dex in all of my shots. I know i hit anyway, but it still could have had a major impact on this fight had Kern not blown the fort save. Now it's a little confusion in which order it was meant to be, but looks like Kern got spot/listen check when he moved closer. Now i don't know if those were from opposed checks at the time i made them, but the spotter/listener moving does not trigger new spot/listen checks. Otherwise i'd just say, ok...i move 60' and make 200 spot checks every 5' that i move. But like i said, it's hard to tell in what order things were done. But again, as stealth being my primary form of both defense and offense it's important for the moderators to know that unless i create a new condition to give them spot/listen checks my last hide/ms checks are the ones used for any situation that may come up in which they are granted new spot/listen checks. Other than the 'no true strike' on my shots, i have no complaints about the fight. I just wanted to clarify the whole h/ms vs s/l thingy. Thx Imizael for running it through your busy schedule. Tellish |
| Tellish_of_Ket10-28-03, 12:37 AM | Originally posted by SnarkHunter Rats I lost. Hurrah I won! ... yeah. I feel so silly now. I thought i was gonna have the 1st assassin of the Arena. I guess i didn't see the higher level characters when i first created this guy. Ugh, i feel like a copy-cat now. :( Tellish |
| sloisel10-28-03, 12:52 AM | Hey Snark, DMG215: "For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator's caster level must be as high as the item's caster level..." Seeing as the CL of a periapt of wisdom is 8, how do you figure your assassin has a CL of 8? Edit: Sorry, I got all screwed up. I got it in my mind you had a periapt of wisdom and you were wiz 1 rog 4, which is totally wrong. Love, Sébastien Loisel |
| SnarkHunter10-28-03, 01:26 AM | Yes Slois that was eintirely in error and will be removed w/ the update. Edit: uh, you mean Fox's cunning right? Tellish-I'm only taking it for one level :rolleyes:, just needed another 1d6 Sneakattack for trickster. Man that was a quick fight. Le sigh, can't all be epic duels I guess. |
| sloisel10-28-03, 01:33 AM | Originally posted by SnarkHunter Tellish-I'm only taking it for one level :rolleyes:, just needed another 1d6 Sneakattack for trickster. Hey, that's my brother's build. (He's fidelio, the guy who started the popular thread on the AT.) Sébastien Loisel |
| Tellish_of_Ket10-28-03, 02:20 AM | Originally posted by SnarkHunter Tellish-I'm only taking it for one level :rolleyes:, just needed another 1d6 Sneakattack for trickster. Thought about that as well. Hmm. ranged legerdemain. Hey, Elder, lemme borrow your scroll of disintergrate for a sec. Bzzzt!! lol If i were to do Trickster it wouldn't be for a long time anyhow. And now that it's being done, i will go down a different path. But had i known a head of time, i'd have had my caster lvl as a cleric instead with death/destruction. Oh well, i'll make the best of it. Since i saw your azn i've been working on a new fiendish path for Kelek anyhow. Kudos on the win, sorry about the loss. lol Tellish |
| SnarkHunter10-28-03, 02:36 AM | Cool stuff, I really liked that build. I'm going to have one more go at this charismatic (sort of-comparitivly) fighter build thing, from kind of a new angle. Everyone meet Franz Vonnegut! |
| Tellish_of_Ket10-28-03, 04:41 AM | Intimidator hmm? I thought about building a charismatic rogue-diplomat to change pc's attitudes to 'friendly', but wasn't sure that was possible. However, your idea seems like it would work just fine. Don't forget, if you drink an enlarge potion before hand, you will also get +4 to your intimidate checks. So basically everyone will be at -2 to attack/skill checks/saves against u? Not bad, not bad at all. Tellish |
| Galamdring10-28-03, 05:11 AM | Jindl: Hmmm, ok. I just checked it and you are correct. My mistake, sorry. Now where did i see that? 3.0 maybe... :( |
| Prexx10-28-03, 05:37 AM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket Now it's a little confusion in which order it was meant to be, but looks like Kern got spot/listen check when he moved closer. Now i don't know if those were from opposed checks at the time i made them, but the spotter/listener moving does not trigger new spot/listen checks. Otherwise i'd just say, ok...i move 60' and make 200 spot checks every 5' that i move. But like i said, it's hard to tell in what order things were done. Well, to my understanding, you are allowed to retry your spot/listen check every round as a move equivalent action. This would represent you actively searching for the enemy. Here is my understanding of the rules, but I may be wrong. When you first come upon a hidden enemy, you are entitled a "reactive" spot check as a free action to see if you can see them. Afterwards, you are assumed to keep that spot check unless you actively retry your spot roll. You wouldn't be able to make 200 spot checks because making a spot check is a move equivalent action. Also, you are entitled another "reactive" spot check any time the hider does something that would provoke this (such as moving, or shooting, or anything like that). Now, when you fired your shot, you were no longer hiding, but you utilized the "sniping" action of the hide skill and used your move equivalent action and immediately attempted another hide check at a -20 penalty, but you still provoked a reactive spot check because you gave away your position. I draw these inferences from the rules presented in the 3.5 PHB pg. 83, under the Action section of Spot. "Varies. Every time you have a chance to spot something in a reactive manner (for example, when someone tries to sneak pastion you while hidden, or you move into a new area), you can make a spot check without using an action. Trying to spot something you failed to see previously is a move action...." One other thing to note is that you must maintain cover or concealment in order to maintain your hide. Otherwise you get the following problem. Spotter is standing 5 feet from hider, looking straight at him. A curtain is drawn between them, granting total concealment to the hider. The hider rolls his hide check and rolls a 20, neither of them move from their position. The curtain is then removed and now the spotter can no longer see the hider? I know that these rules really gimp rogues, but they only make sense. I mean, if you aren't hiding behind something, then you aren't hiding. Fog, smoke, shadows, darkness, tall grass, foliage, or anything along those lines are all valid hiding places. But none of those exist in the arena. All the combatants have to work with are pillars and rocks. My first choice of characters was going to be a rogue, but the arena has virtually no hiding places at all, making rogues a very poor choice. Anyways, I hope this helps to clear things up. Prexx |
| Moherajikuyx10-28-03, 06:01 AM | Actually, it should be possible to move from a hiding place to the other while hiding. This is the reason of the boulders and pillars. When the rogues get to a covered position, they can get advantage of their skills to start moving to other boulders. |
| Caterane10-28-03, 06:21 AM | Originally posted by Imizael I have to quit the arena.The main reason is school (parents ). Till swords part |
| Tellish_of_Ket10-28-03, 06:23 AM | Maybe i wasn't clear enough...and lord knows that happens a lot. I understand what you're saying prex and agree. But Kern didn't move into a new area to be able to reactively spot/listen me. That's my only gripe with that. And the fight wasn't described very well either...so things are fuzzy. And heck no, i don't need to maintain cover or concealment to continue to hide/ms. I can't begin it if i'm being observed until line of sight is broken, which those large stones most certainly do. And the pillars even more so. I'd just hate to lose because someone walked in my direction and was given a new spot/listen and actually succeeded and was then allowed t charge. Because the 'active' spot/listen is a mve action and since he's already moving, should not be allowed an attack. I only bring it up because i've seen it happen. Otherwise prexx, yeah, i agree with what your saying...i just wasn't clear (and neither was the description of the fight) on exactly what happened at what time. Tellish |
| Moherajikuyx10-28-03, 06:34 AM | Only Ander Brogaden vs. Ebelin Barnahdy (SnarkHunter) missing! :) Good fights guys! I just retired the mermaid. Sorcerers are clearly out of the competition, as rules are: preparing the spells knowing the opponent should be their only advantage, and I think it should be so. With the number of wizards around I don't even put it at votes. BTW, this rule would help also bards.... It's not a case that there are no sorcerers and no bards around. |
| Moherajikuyx10-28-03, 06:36 AM | Tellish, Prex is partially right. If anyone moves enough as to put the stone away from your position, he sees you because there's no cover at all between. Flyers are helped in that: moving fast, above the arena, they seldom have difficulties. |
| Prexx10-28-03, 06:40 AM | Just a quick observation. I noticed that Snarkhunter's Bilo Darkleaf has a crafted Headband of Intellect +2. I believe that the caster level requirement for a Headband of Intellect is CL 8. Which means that you couldn't have crafted it yourself, and would have to pay full price for it. So you might want to just remove that from your character and refund the money. |
| Prexx10-28-03, 06:50 AM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Actually, it should be possible to move from a hiding place to the other while hiding. This is the reason of the boulders and pillars. When the rogues get to a covered position, they can get advantage of their skills to start moving to other boulders. I see what you are saying. I think it would be possible for a rogue to quickly dart in between hiding spots, but the pillars/rocks are at least 30 feet apart. I mean, maybe 5 or 10 feet in between is understandable, but a rogue simply can't "dart" 30 feet without making his presense rather obvoius. Another problem with the "darting" rogue is if I know a rogue is behind a pillar, and I intently stare at that pillar and wait for the rogue to come out, there should be no way he can slip out from behind that pillar without me knowing. It just wouldn't make sense for him to do so without some form of concealment or cover. |
| Tellish_of_Ket10-28-03, 07:08 AM | It's only a -5 penalty and if you're building a character who's main method of moving is through stealth then that's not a heavy penalty. Assuming i continue to win, there will come a time when i can charge you (-20) and remain unseen. K, about the intently staring at the pillar thing. The answer is no. I can sneak away. The reason are many, and so many factors could be involved. I could have kicked some dirt in the opposite direction that i intend to move, creating a small cloud of dust for your eyes to track and follow, only have have darted away quickly before you could refocus on the opposite side and voila, i'm gone. The thing i think we all forget to keep in mind are the actual circumstances that result in an individual hiding. It's not just about 'poof...dissappearing before your very eyes' kind of trick. It involves moving at the right time, when your opponent's attention is slightly slack in that area, or concentrating on another erea. There is even a psychological aspect of it as well, too long to explain, won't go into that detailed explanation. Thing is, arguments can go on and on and on. The game mechanics are in place either way. So long ast hey are observed, and so far i think we're all on the same wavelength in that department, then let it be that way. As a former special force operative (way way long ago...yes i am old) i can tell you i've seen stealth that would blow your mind away. But that's neither here nor there. Fact is so many factors are taken into account when performing said sneaks that we just need concern ourselves with the game mechanics and how they are applied. To sum it up. You can't hide while being observed. You can snipe at -20, or charge or run as well at -20 When you gain total cover/concealment, break line of sight etc... you may begin sneaking again. fair? I think we're all preaching to the choir though, cuz as i review some of the past posts, we pretty much all agree on the same things...so why argue? hmm. dunno...it's what gamers enjoy doing i guess. lol Tellish |
| Prexx10-28-03, 07:36 AM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket K, about the intently staring at the pillar thing. The answer is no. I can sneak away. The reason are many, and so many factors could be involved. I could have kicked some dirt in the opposite direction that i intend to move, creating a small cloud of dust for your eyes to track and follow, only have have darted away quickly before you could refocus on the opposite side and voila, i'm gone. I still don't quite buy the sneaking your way out from behind a carefully observed pillar. But for the sake of game mechanics and balance I suppose I can let it go. I think a few main points need to be considered. 1) You need to be behind cover/concealment in order to attempt a hide check. This is probably a no brainer for everybody. I think everybody is on the same page on this one. You can't hide if you don't have something to hide behind. 2) You need to be behind cover/concealment at the end of your action in order to remain hidden. This would cover the sneaking from spot to spot rule. 3) If the spotter moves so that he has direct LOS with the hider, he automaticly sees the hider. No spot check needed (maybe spot DC 0?) But yes, for the most part, it does sound like we are in agreement. BTW, very cool build with Kelek! Rogue power! :) |
| Imizael10-28-03, 07:51 AM | Originally posted by Magagumo Edit: Hmm, alright, Imizael doesn't have any tactics down. Do I just hand the win to Jindl? Or do I play crazy, rampaging Imitril until he collapses? I do believe Jindl will win.. but I will try and make it a fair fight if no one minds ;) Of course, there's the matter of memorized spells, but I'll see what happens. how about this : Hi spells preperd 0-lev - ray of frost x4 1-lev - true strike(s) , shocking grasp , expeditious retreat , magic missile, magic missile , magic missile 2-lev - see invisibility (s) , schorching ray , invisibility , fox cunning 3-lev - arcane sight (s) , deep slumber x2 tactic : use invisibility and run away to hide then buff with exp retreat , fox cunning. then use deep slumber from maximum possible range ( rod of enlarge spell ) and try second time if needed. If this fails or i will be unable to follow previous tactic then use scroll of mirror image , scroll of mage armor and try to run away (exp retreat) and cast magic missiles then schorching ray and shocking grasp ... then usr ray of frost if needed: - use see invisibility if needed - run away from his summons if possible - pray that deep slumber will work out :) have fun posted 24.10.2003 22:00 ... just check your mailbox again or u just deleted it ... i got it in my posted emails and get no error about his msg so u had to get it ... i can't make misteke in the email couse i check it 3 times ... anyway I won't play more but my opponent shouldn't have a free ride ;) i forwarded my mail with tactics to you so u can see the date etc. + i send it to Mo . This fight should be rerun or canceled... Got to go studing again :( .cu |
| SnarkHunter10-28-03, 08:09 AM | Yeah while entertaining to read I don't think it was eintirely fair. Iys not terribly difficult to extrapolate some very basic-that is not tailored to what you know about jindles tactics-tactics and at least tried the fight. Yeah Jindle probably would have won but it would have been less...well chancier. About the Hide thing. I think your being to strict on limiting what you can do with Hide. Every action takes only 6 seconds tops. During that time you blink, sneeze, swat a fly-whatever. When you do that Sneaky Mcsneaks a lot can move from cover to the open. But becuase he's positioned in the shadow of a pillar, behind some scrub, with the sun in your eyes etc. You don't see him. Those are the rules. Also I've been allowing one reflexive spot listen check per turn, since the simple act of moving and changing your position often increases (or decreases) the chance of success. Additional require a move action. |
| Moherajikuyx10-28-03, 10:13 AM | About darting from a hole to the next one: I think of it as the rogue choosing the best moment to move. The observer's spot roll is exactly his "carefully observing the pillar" to me. Maybe we could let people take 10 if they declare they're doing just it? I saw in some fights the thing managed in other ways, I think we shall now use this standard. When moving, distances vary. How do we calculate it for the reactive spot/listen? I do it this way. Observer moves: longer distance used (the active looking would be a move action by itself, this is reactive so not the best thing. It would be incorrect to move based on seeing the stealthy one, if you see him later.) Stalker approaches: shorter distance calculated (the most difficult one, as he's probably going to stealth attack)* Hider moves away: shorter distance calculated (likely trying to hide: if he gets spotted at movement's start, he's spotted.) *I've got doubts about this one: would a target who's aware of the approach only at the last moment not be surprised, for example? Anyways, these are guidelines for me, not rules: in cases where the reasoning in brackets is false, for instance, I may vary them. *Edit* We added some other guidelines for the cases when the listen checks vs. invisible opponents are beaten, but at less than 20, which doesn't pinpoint their square but only gives the general direction. Beat by 0-4: within 20'; randomize in 56 positions in 2d, a lot in 3d | | | |*|*|*| | | | | | |*|*|*|*|*| | | | |*|*|*|*|*|*|*| | |*|*|*|*|*|*|*|*|*| |*|*|*|*|@|*|*|*|*| |*|*|*|*|*|*|*|*|*| | |*|*|*|*|*|*|*| | | | |*|*|*|*|*| | | | | | |*|*|*| | | | By 5-9: within 15'; randomize between 36 squares in 2d, 178 in 3d. | | |*|*|*| | | | |*|*|*|*|*| | |*|*|*|*|*|*|*| |*|*|*|@|*|*|*| |*|*|*|*|*|*|*| | |*|*|*|*|*| | | | |*|*|*| | | | By 10-14: within 10'; randomize between 20 squares in 2d, 90 in 3d. | |*|*|*| | |*|*|*|*|*| |*|*|@|*|*| |*|*|*|*|*| | |*|*|*| | By 15-19: within 5'; randomize between 8 squares in 2d, 26 in 3d. |*|*|*| |*|@|*| |*|*|*| |
| Jindl10-28-03, 10:28 AM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx *edit* I concur that the free ride was a bit too easy, but now it's done. No reruns. Jindl's happy! Let's remember it for the future. I would have liked to see how my tactics fared against a sleeper mage. Although I (like some of the other posters) think the druid would have most likely won the fight, it would have cost me some resources... Still, this happened once before (Corrundrum the dwarf wizard...) and as yet I still don't have any ideas how to better handle it when an opponent drops out after pairings. Its not fair to the other player to have his fight cancelled and be forced to sit out a week (especially if that player is a moderator who is working hard to run fights.) I guess my only suggestion is that players can't withdraw characters until after the fight is resolved (hence even if Imizael states that he is leaving the board for now - sorry to see you go, btw. - the fight must continue, using emailed tactics or default tactics if email unavailable, or just previous fights tactics if both email and default are unavailable.) I don't like free rides either, but having to sit out another week is worse (remember, Jindl hasn't fought for 3 weeks now... it would be 4 if this fight was cancelled.) So don't withdraw characters until after the fight. That being said, Diana's fight is done and she is retired. (Sorry for the loss, Snark. Hopefully your new guy does better than Jorge.) That leaves me with 2 pcs and 1 fight. I'm thinking about adding another pc, we'll see... -Jindl |
| Moherajikuyx10-28-03, 10:30 AM | Hmm.. Interesting... Did you read my post (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1690097#post1690097) about fishes, sorcerers and bards? (hint, hint) :angel: *edit* - this was obscure. What I mean is: try the other side of the arcane... I'm pretty sure you're going to change your mind, about prepared spells. |
| Caterane10-28-03, 11:47 AM | @Snark: I have to leave in 2 hours and do not return until tomorow evening so if you`ve finished the fight could you please post it? You could let Ander surrender :D Hm, by the way, what`s a Snark? My computer nearly crashed when I asked him about that!! :fight!: |
| Moherajikuyx10-28-03, 12:08 PM | Hey people, look how pretty is the polls' thread now! Please, everyone, write as first word "yes" "no" or "abstain" :) *edit* Let's not buy spellcasting for this week ok? We have to finish the poll. I closed only the first two for now; the third is open but the result's obvious. I'd prefer a larger majority towards one or the other part before closing the fourth poll. |
| LLMadCow10-28-03, 12:35 PM | Since all potions are 1 ounce of liquid, is it reasonable to assume that a potion and the vile it is in weighs 2 ounces? That is what I am going with... |
| Caterane10-28-03, 12:37 PM | @Mo: When do you plan to roll the new pairings? Could you please wait until I say "Go Mo"? |
| barrel_master10-28-03, 01:43 PM | I have a question regarding the varient Paladin mounts (mounts like Hipogriffs and Griffons)... I was told that there were guidelines in the DMG regarding these special mounts but unfortunately I've been unable to find them... the only thing I could find was in Defenders of the faith page 13... 'Expect the mount's CR to be no more then 3 less than your paladin level (to a maximum of CR 5 at level 8). If the mount can fly, expet it's CR to be no more then 4 less your paladin level... ' So, my basic question is this... will we allow Paladin's to have one of the weird mounts or are we going to just stick to the normal mounts or did I miss something in the DMG? |
| Magagumo10-28-03, 01:47 PM | Hmm.. quick stataments because I have to pass a class (meaning there's homework to be done ;)) Hiding/Sneaking: I say the direct observation clause is most impacted by those who can hide in plain sight (high level rangers or shadowdancers) or those who are engaged in melee, then try to run away. Thus, I say we keep running the h/ms as we have, using the requisite bluff/dash tactics only when trying to escape out of a very close-range situation (see Bilo vs. Jindl for several examples of this). Imitril vs. Jindl: yes, I did not truly run a fight. Yes, I recieved Imitril's tactics this morning. yes, I agree it's somewhat unfair for Jindl to get a free ride (but cancellation is a no-go as well). Thusly, two options sit before us: One, we allow Jindl to win based on the fact that there were no default tactics, and I wasn't comfortable picking out spells for Imitril (even though there were past fights, he just got 3rd level spells, and it wasn't worth my time, honestly, b/c then I'd be practically making his tactics). Two, you give we a few days (at least till wednesday evening (East Coast Time)) to myself to get my two major philosophy essays fionished, and I run the fight for real. Let me know your opinions on this, I have to go and pass... later. Rules for special paladin mounts are located in the 3.5 DMG near the leadership section. |
| Imizael10-28-03, 02:07 PM | I forwarded a mail that i post to you couple days ago ! look at the date ... that means that runing a fight with default tactics is not fair couse i send u my tactics in time.I didn't get any msg about error so i asumed that u get them ... look at the date of my first mail ... it was send 24 and today is 28 ... Druid have more chances of wining but thats not the point ... he can fail the save and the lose the fight ... and there is no rerun couse there wasn't a fight ! |
| barrel_master10-28-03, 02:30 PM | mag >> Thanks for answering my question... I guess the 'Expect the mount's CR to be no more then 3 less than your paladin level (to a maximum of CR 5 at level 8). If the mount can fly, expet it's CR to be no more then 4 less your paladin level... ' applies. As for your fight... I don't really know... waiting till wendsday will push everything back... (both chars may have to buy items and edit and such... ) I guess I'll go with the concensus on this board... Also, I'd like to thank Moh for all the effort he's put into this... the arena's quite fun. |
| Magagumo10-28-03, 04:41 PM | Imizael, I understand your frustration, but you need to remember that my mail server lost your email. Now then, I would like to run the fight for real, time providing, but my decision was bolstered by time issues (I don't have a lot to spare right now), issues with tactics, and this arena's history (You publically announced that you did not have time for the boards, so I assumed your character would no longer be active after this fight. Since at that moment, I did not have tactics from you, the whole incidient resembled when a character before, I believe it was piwi's, dropped out just after pairings were made. In the end, piwi's opponent simply advanced for free). I would like to get the board's consensus on whether the fight can be delayed, but there are my thought processes behind my decision to present the fight as I did (and no, me running it would not be considered a rerun). |
| Imizael10-28-03, 05:19 PM | Ok so Imitirl is punished for the error of your mail server ? - lol Just think how would u fell if i would lost your tactics and get default win to your opponent ... |
| SnarkHunter10-28-03, 05:52 PM | Guidelines for special mounts for paladins can be found on page 204 in the DMG. I don't know where they it would be in the SRD. Coincedently, I'm currently torn between Monk-Bane becoming a Hippogrif or a pegasus :). |
| Jindl10-28-03, 06:14 PM | Snark - Go for the pegasus = it has much better fly speed, etc. And when are you gonna post Ebelin vs Ander?? -Jindl |
| Magagumo10-28-03, 06:50 PM | Imizael, I'm going to say this once: Stop complaining. It has not been decided whether or not your fight will be run, I'm waiting for our other elder Mods to speak their peace. Also, as I said before, you publically announced that you didn't have time for this board, so I'm not sure what importance the fight had to you anyways. It was a difficult decision for me to make last night, and its not even final. Thusly, I'm politely asking you to drop the subject, because you're certainly not swaying my decision. Be Patient. On a further note, perhaps it would be wise to include default tactics if you continue to remain at this board; accidents happen, and we should prepare for them (I know I do not have default tactics, and I am willing to accept that I might lose by default if I do not post any in the near future). |
| LLMadCow10-28-03, 06:59 PM | Well, for those people who are retiring from the board, I suggest leaving one character in play and simply listing some good default tactics. Then, check in every so often to see if your character has won a fight. Do not worry about running fights, just update the character every so often. If you have the time and can manage to send off some tactics, then great. If not, oh well. We could occassionally use an extra character to round out a weeks battle roster, and if the character is going to be the odd man (or woman) out, then that is fine too. Once the character wins a battle, it is on hold until updated. @Imizael - Relax. Either you care and want to keep this character running, or you don't. @Magagumo - I say, if you have the time, run the battle with the tactics listed. From running two battles so far, I know it is tough (for me at least) but fun in the end. @Mo - I'm good to run a battle this week. Lothar has been updated and posted as ready. No changes to Allister, but he is also ready. @ALL - Have you guys noticed how pointless a Sorcerer is in the arena? What is the point in being able to select your spells on the fly if the Wizards get to do practically the same thing with a larger spell library? I would consider submitting for vote a move to change some of the rules for tactics. Changes: Make Wizards choose what spells they memorize prior to Matchups. This makes the Wizard function more as intended and still gives the benefits to the Sorcerers. Wizards have more spells. Sorcerers have choice of spells on the fly. The Sorcerer is pointless right now, since whoever is playing the character CANNOT change their mind about what spells to use in the midst of battle. Make sense? Also, one might want to take a look at the intrinsic bonus a wizard gets at first level that others do not - How much is that spell book worth at start of character? Do Fighters/Barbarians start with weapons and armor? I think not, although it is a required part of the class, unlike Monks... Just some food for thought. |
| Magagumo10-28-03, 07:48 PM | Hmm, interesting point on WIzards, but you might as well just quit playing them altogether if you can't customize their tactics at all. After all, if a wizard sits on the brink of an active volcano, and nows that tomorrow he will be journeying down into a Fire Giant Fortress, is it fair for the GM to say, nope, you memorized those fireball spells back when you entered the jungle, no changing them now because they're immune to fire... This is a somewhat silly example, but the point stands- Wizards have versaitility, but limited amount of spells to use. Trust me, Bruno get's one invisibility per day if I want to use Ghoul's Touch or Blindness/Deafness, which means I'll prob want Fox's Cunning as well... If Bruno were a sorceror, I could be blinding my opponents up to 3 or 4 times, then continue to rain Ghoul Touches on them. And Bilo with Invisibility and Scorching Ray? *shudder* Of course, many of our builds have somewhat of a delay of power going for them... a battle sroceror at 6th level has access to lightning bolts and fireballs. If they're smart, they'll pick one and choose dispel magic as well, allowing them to instantaneously rip down their opponent's magical defenses, then slam them with an attack they probably won't dodge (How many good reflex saves do we have here? I count Bilo, Lucient, Ander as people with good class saves, we have sme archers as well.. but those Str Destruction clerics... kaboom!). Imagine having access to 4 6d6 fireballs per day (probably having spell focus (evoc) and a charisma of at least 18 to boot... In the same way, some of the other characters are still struggling- Ander was somewhat crippled by my choice of rogue, but 2 levels gives him the happiness of hiding in plain sight. Lucient struggles by with expensive buff potions, but wait till the assassin levels start to roll in.... Stunning fist and sneak attacks with flurry of blows.... So you see, baby those sorcerors, and you'll have a powerful combatant in time, one likely to wipe the floor with a lot of our current gladiators. Also, as I've said before, I don't mind running the fight, just not when I have academic pressures (in the end, passing my classes is far more important than this board ever will be. Sorry to dissappoint anyone ^_~) |
| Jindl10-28-03, 09:16 PM | Regarding the Jindl vs Imitril combat: I have stayed out of this discussion for some time, but having given it much thought, this is what I come up with: Reason's to run the fight: 1. I certainly don't mind having the fight actually run. I have confidence in the druid. As for the resources I may (or may not) use in the fight, its part of the game. And I've been banking money with the druid for a while. 2. It would settle Imizael's complaints (although I'm not sure why its so important to him if he is, in fact, leaving the board.) Reason's not to run the fight: 1. Time. As Magagumo says, he has little time (and yes, studying has to be given higher priority for those still in school.) Therefore, the fight couldn't be run until late Wednesday night. That means I don't get to update the druid (win or lose) until Thursday. Which of course, means either pairings are postponed, or the druid sits out another week (really, really, not fair. He's already sat out 2 weeks because we didn't have enough mods.) 2. Tactics. Not to questin anyone's integrity, but the druid's tactics were already posted on the fights thread before Imizael posted tactics for Imitril. How do I know that Imitril's tactics weren't prepared in response to reading (even casually) the druid's tactics. Again, I'm not saying anyone is cheating, but the concept of letting someone create tactics after reading his opponent's tactics is bad mojo. 3. Precedent. Once before we had a player state that they were getting rid of a character (piwi). His character (Matrim Stormwind) automatically lost the fight. The winner advanced as normal. I know, because I was the moderator assigned to that fight. There was discussion about this on the boards at that time, and in the end, it was decided that there was no better alternative than to procede and award the win to the other character (Corundrum the dwarven wizard - played by Greymouse.) In the end, I think that we must go on from here. Postponing pairings (and forcing all players to rush on their tactics) is definately not fair, and is an unavoidable outcome if Magagumo has to re-run that fight. Forcing the druid to sit out a week is also completely wrong. As it stands, Magagumo posted several times that he had not received tactics for Imitril (beginning last Friday I believe.) Imitril did not have default tactics listed. And a post stating that all of Imizael's characters were going inactive was posted. These events all led to the current situation, and at any time during these things, Imitril's player could have taken different actions to cause the fight to go on as normal (such as sending new tactics, posting default tactics, or waiting to withdraw from the arena.) I feel that the current outcome exists because of the choices made by the player. Please realize that I am not trying to assign blame or anything like that. I am trying to look at this as logically (and remotely) as possible, from a cause-effect point of view. And the conclusion I come up with is that the fight stands and we go on from here. For the future, I would like to stress again how important default tactics are, and how important it is that you try to wait until after the fight is posted before retiring characters. I've been in the same position as Magagumo before, and its not a fun place to be... Having said my peace, I would like to add that if the decision is made to rerun the fight, then I'll be fine with that. -Jindl |
| barrel_master10-28-03, 09:50 PM | Thanks SnarkHunter, but unfortunately, I don't have access to a DMG... dam... I'll just assume that the DOF book says the same thing as the DMG. That's another thing I was thinking about... will the arena enforce the 'if your paladin mount is killed you must wiat a month before it comes back'? Otherwise, what is the point to waiting till say level 6 before you summon a celestial warhorse... why not just upgrade mounts as you gain levels. As for the wizzard thing... good point but I think it's still best if we keep it as is... if wizzard are forced to prepare spells beforehand then the practicly become the same as sorcers except with less spells. However there is something I would like to see enforced... the whole 'At each new wizard level, she gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that she can cast (based on her new wizard level) for her spellbook. At any time, a wizard can also add spells found in other wizards’ spellbooks to her own.' That and the cost for scribing each spell past level 1 into her spell book. Although, I imagine most people already do this. |
| SnarkHunter10-29-03, 01:16 AM | Barrel; It's not a long table, and if it doesn't violate posting guidelines I could put it up. @: jindle yup thats the plan. (Monk bane gets yet more applause as he enters sprouting (literally) a brand new pair of wings...) @cat: sorry if you won't see this for a bit but I've just started the 1st round now so it coudl take a bit...:uh-huh: @mo: re hiding, okay I rather like that approach. I admit I'm a bit concearned about the hider approaching one, but I'll try it this way in the fight I'm running nwo and we can decide after. @everyone: I think I'll be done in ~an hour! Edit: by 1 hour I meant 3. So tired...time to finish homework! |
| Irlina10-29-03, 05:11 AM | And another new char... replaced Tanya by Marcus... Hiding: Don't make it too easy. Sorry, put else no high-level char will have any chance against ranger/rogues with hide/ms +20 (or higher), since they will simply wait till spells end and afterwards sneak attack or from cover till every enemy is dead. And I think noone will like 50+round sneaking fights... |
| Moherajikuyx10-29-03, 06:40 AM | - barrel_master: thanks! That's quite an effort, but it's worth it in terms of satisfaction and good time! About the special mounts. I'm bit worried about. Don't use the DotF special mounts, they quite don't fit. Even those in the DMG, I look at worrily. They're not in the SRD, and as you people probably already know, I tend to consider not really core what's not in the SRD. This is probably an eccess, but in this case maybe not. My reasoning is this: special mounts are usually given for roleplaying merits at the eyes of the faith. So, I think we should treat them like the spell copying by the wizards. After all, it's obvious that a griffon is better than a warhorse. So there's little point in using that here, in the character optimization thread. But then, paladins don't get a lot of power ups with levels, beyond smiting, so... But I wouldn't create a precedent... Argh! Opinions welcome. - Imizael: I'm sorry, you shall have written the default tactics, which are exactly meant for these kind of problems (as written in the rules :)). Why don't you write them before leaving? If you have the time to access now and then, as it looks like, you would not abandon Imitril. - spontaneous casters: I think we shall vote, sooner or later. The simple fact that there are no bards and sorcerers is the clear symptom of a game unbalance, at the eyes of any game designer. But it is also the cause of an impossibility of actually evaluating the problem with facts. So, before the vote, I invite everyone willing to post a new build, to do a sorcerer or a bard. I have the tendency of not trusting arguments like Magagumo's, the one about the power of a 6th lvl sorc, not because of their contents, but because the mere fact that they're theorical. I would rather wait a sorc or a bard to tell their opinions. Actually, we already have the opinion of a pair of bards... And they look to be strongly in favor of any power upping to bards... Backed by the disappearance of at least one of such bards! ;) - hiding: looks like now it's under control. The important thing to remember is that if one turns around the rock you're hiding after, simply, you're discovered with no rolls. A flying familiar helps a lot: a rogue will easily hide from a wizard, but a lot less easily from a wizard looking from one direction and a bird looking from above! *edit* good fight Snark! Cute speakers... I'm now updating. |
| Irlina10-29-03, 07:37 AM | @LLMadCow : Wizards I think he's suggesting a very good point. While playing D&D the wizard never exactly knows what's going to be his next encouter. So he has to decide in advance what kind of spells he's going to memorize. However, a sorceror or bard can use his spells as he wish when the encounter started. If memorizing spells would be done at the same time as buying equipment, it would very well follow this line. A wizard can look at the likely oppennets (from the same level) but doesn't know yet what kind of enemy lurks on him on his next encounter. So he has to- like a wizard should! - decide in advance not knowing exactly his next enemy! I think this would greatly help in evening out the outs between sorcs and wizs, making both of them worth considering. |
| Jindl10-29-03, 08:00 AM | Well, I need a third character. So what do you guys want to see, a bard or a sorceror. I have an idea for one of each (that should prove successful.) I'll post the character today, so it can go in these pairings... -Jindl |
| Moherajikuyx10-29-03, 09:01 AM | Roster updated. Did I forget anyone? Update your characters... Pairings tomorrow at twelve o'clock (EU tz, GMT +1)! Irlina - you make another valid point. |
| fluiddragon10-29-03, 09:23 AM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Roster updated. Did I forget anyone? Update your characters... Pairings tomorrow at twelve o'clock (EU tz, GMT +1)! Hey you forgot Xaver level 3 I'm moding 1 fight = 2 characters! Thanks |
| barrel_master10-29-03, 10:30 AM | Jindle >> Try a bard... if you think it's viable. I'm curious as to what you have in mind. |
| Jindl10-29-03, 10:44 AM | Hey somebody email Alathar Vierce and tell him to update to level 7, so we can watch him and Moon-moon go at it again... (Cat, would you like to moderate that one again? You did a wonderful job on the last one...) @Snark - How did Bilo make a headband of int +2, when creating it has a caster level 8 requirement? (Tell me so the Elder can make one too :) ) RE: Listing spells memorized as part of equip. - would this apply to clerics and *gasp* druids? Are Imizael's characters active (Rizzen??) I think LLMadCow has made Allister active again. And just for Bilo, I have changed the druid's animal companion to a dire bat (yep, Dozen's been put out to stud...). Okay keg_lord (I mean barrel_master) I've got a bard for yah... Jindl - And finally something for everyone to think about: Lothar has gotten himself some giant sized javelins (ie. really big pokey things), think he's compensating for anything...? |
| Moherajikuyx10-29-03, 11:15 AM | :rofl: bad boy! BTW thrown weapons always have 1x str bonus, there's no such thing as light, 1 handed and 2 handed melee weapons. Originally posted by fluiddragon Hey you forgot Xaver level 3 I'm moding 1 fight = 2 characters! Thanks I didn't he was below, in the waiting characters. As I don't have the time to check out all of them all the times, I will move them above when the players post here. |
| LLMadCow10-29-03, 11:21 AM | Okay, Lothar is simply using Medium Javelins as I have been politely informed that Javelins cannot be used two handed, and thus cannot give a 1 1/2 STR bonus to the damage. Still a fun idea.... And really, when the ladies see lothar... :OMG! And now for something completely different (Hopefully for next week if people like it)... Challenges! Mo and I were chatting and we think it could be a lot of fun for people to be allowed to make challenges and give the challenged person a chance to accept or decline! Think of the fun and excitement! The Challenging would occur AFTER fights for the week and PRIOR to matchups for the following week. If accepted we can have fun trash talking characters for the arena! Think of vengeful rematches! Exciting challenges for the person who knows he can take them down! So, what do y'all think? |
| Jindl10-29-03, 11:25 AM | Originally posted by LLMadCow Challenges! Mo and I were chatting and we think it could be a lot of fun for people to be allowed to make challenges and give the challenged person a chance to accept or decline! Think of the fun and excitement! The Challenging would occur AFTER fights for the week and PRIOR to matchups for the following week. If accepted we can have fun trash talking characters for the arena! Think of vengeful rematches! Exciting challenges for the person who knows he can take them down! So, what do y'all think? Sounds like a great idea. I would mention that we shouldn't allow it if there is an odd number of characters at that level (because then if you do a challenge you are exempt from the doesn't play roll = not fair.) Otherwise, I think its a cool idea. -Jindl |
| LLMadCow10-29-03, 11:30 AM | Quote byJindl Sounds like a great idea. I would mention that we shouldn't allow it if there is an odd number of characters at that level (because then if you do a challenge you are exempt from the doesn't play roll = not fair.) Otherwise, I think its a cool idea. Well, I would still allow challenges if, for some reason, you happen to have two characters of the same level. This way, if the roll is made, and one of your PCs are chosen, it will simply be shifted to one who is not challenging / being challenged. Also - The Doesn't Play Roll - Is this done character by character or player by player? It might be more fair to do it player by player if there are multiple PCs of the same level by the same player... |
| Caterane10-29-03, 12:37 PM | @Snark: You definetaly have to keep up your two outsiders!! I was more interested in their discussion than in the fight ...well, sort of. But what`s a snark now? @Irlina: As far as I know you can re-equip a level 2 character in the case of a defeat so no need to change characters like my roomy does with her boyfriends Challenges! Ok, Ebelin herby challenges Jindl`s new bard Alathar Vierce and tell him to update to level 7, so we can watch him and Moon-moon go at it again... (Cat, would you like to moderate that one again? You did a wonderful job on the last one...) I would be honored |
| Caterane10-29-03, 12:50 PM | Come, foul creature of evil, traitor to the good-heartiness of your race! Once you beat me because of your halfling`s luck but this time not even that will help you to save your pitiful hide. I, protector of the elven ways, will give you more than you deserve: a swift death! I want REVENGE!!! |
| Caterane10-29-03, 12:56 PM | Advertisement: I (125,54,70) am searching for YOU! or any other soul, preferably not the kobold`s, to trap and sent to a dark realm. My hobbies are beheading people, playing with the scythe and standing there doing nothing. If you are interested in getting aquainted with me come to the Arena at Friday, 13:00. I hope you write me soon. Yours The Harvester |
| MotherBast10-29-03, 12:57 PM | Just letting you know MO, I can again run up to 3 fights this week if needed. Also, I love the challange thing, it makes since and will alow Brackin to complete his storyline of fighting Rito when there the same level. (which will be pretty soon if Bracking keeps winning and Rito, well, does what Rito does) |
| SnarkHunter10-29-03, 12:59 PM | THE HEADBAND WAS IN ERROR I APPOLOGIZE! Gwar. BRain fart is all. And I'm very tired. Um...I'll update Bilo after lab with all requisite corrections. Cat: I'm really not sure. You can hunt them though And now and then...they may be boojums you see. Oh, and @ Cat again, "Pitiful elf. Your defeat would be only a small whimper compared to the burning pain that awaits that accursed Paladin and that sniveling Druid. But if that is your wish we shall cross spells before the eyes of all, and demonstrate the very depths of arcane might." Weee! |
| Jindl10-29-03, 01:13 PM | Please add Turnip the Test Bard (he's been put in Karse's old place on the builds, if people want to look at him.) EDIT: If Turnip doesn't win, then his cousin (a forest gnome sorceror) will replace him. Although I like the challenge idea, we need to use a rule of no challenges if there are an odd # of characters. Sorry guys , but if Bilo and Ebelin challenge each other, it forces Jindl to sit out = unfair :nonono: That's why Moherajikuyx does a doesn't fight roll. If we had an even # of combatants, then that would be fine. But you can't force another character to sit out just so you can challenge someone... That being said, Snark - have a look at Jindl's new animal companion = pretty scary!! :) (Especially for Bilo's most famous phobia.) -Jindl PS: Mo, I have 3 PC's which means 2 fights this week. |
| fluiddragon10-29-03, 01:17 PM | Due to the discussion about sorcerer's not being compeditive in the arena, I changed gage to a wild elf sorcerer. One of the biggest bonuses of the arena is that you can purchase scrolls, and get some flexibility with your spells. I chose the wild elf because they do not have a con or charisma penalty and they have proficency with bows. The dex bonus helps as well. The Int penalty hurts in the skills department though. I saw there was already a gnome sorcerer, so I stayed away from this to be different. The gnomes I feel also make very good sorcerers. I don't think any of the +1 LA races work well as a sorcerer in the arena, the main fall back is the sorcerers already slower progression than the wizard. Which puts them at a serious disadvantage against a wizard. The biggest advantage of the arena is access to scrolls to round out the spell selection. The biggest disadvantage is your oponent knowing your known spells, and low bab and low hit points. The Low BaB can be compensated with touch attack spells, Shocking grasp is particularly good 2d6 at 2nd level and it is instantaneous, meaning you can hold the charge. Hit points can be compensated with high con and a toad familiar, and toughness. With a 14 con easilly achieveable for a sorceror, and a toad with toughness you start with 17 hitpoints, wich is very respectable for a 2nd level character. Use scrolls of mage armor and shield to round out your defenses, It is possible in most matches to have 2 rounds to buff before combat begins. a 20 ac is achievable for 100 gp and 3 rounds. with no dex bonus. I personally think sorcerers will work fine in the arena provided they are optimised for teh arena. Bards I could care less about either way, just not my cup of tea. Lets see how my ideas work -FD |
| SnarkHunter10-29-03, 01:22 PM | understood Jindle, consider that a general rejoinder as opposed to a singular challenge. For you it would be more like... " Bats. Why did it have to be bats." fin. Also Bilo=updated. |
| Magagumo10-29-03, 01:23 PM | Ok, I have honestly not looked at the postings yet, but if Ander and Ebelin just got posted, I'm going to need to update him (whether I won or lost). Thusly, I hope people will believe in that whatever changes are made to Ander, they won't be made in response to the pairings ^_^;; (after all, he isn't exactly a tricky character in the slightest, I'm thinking a dex mod item if I won, and just replenishing resources if I lost). Two notes: Oe, I belive it is a dangerous suggestion to suddenly start nerfing those who memorize spells, especially whne we have gotten this far. Also, I would like to point out that we are in a [b] fighting [/] arena; not all characters will be equal here. Bards have several strengths outside of an area (Bardic Knowledge, FAscination, good Gather Info and Diplomacy), but these skills simply don't function well here. Does they mean they're underpowered? or that other classes are overpowered? No way, they are simpy at a disadvantage.. deal with it. Secondly, I have not seen sorcerors to be incredibly weak here, Slefwee was very effective (high DCs on those sleep spells), but Moh had given up a level to do that... a 4th level sorceror (especially one using attack spells) would have done much better aginst Bruno. Also, sorcerors are still permitted to use scrolls, just like Wizards. Scribing might be trickier, but they aren't barred form picking up essentials like Shield, Mage Armor, See Invisibility, and Fly in scroll form. Realy, sorcerors can be just as effectve as wziards, if they take the time to protect themselves- Harvester is an expert at slaying people who rely on Will Saves (and Fort saves ^_^;;), so it was not surprising when the underprotected Octavian persihed to his lance. It wasn't necessarily because Octavian was a sorceror, he still could have used a scroll of Invisibility (Caster check 5, so roll a 2 or higher) to give him time to establish the silent image (Good idea not to repeat tactics, especially aginst the opponents who have encountered them already, right Cat? ;)) Octavian's grease tactic was good, but he didn't have a good kill spell. In the end, I don't expect people to believe me on this, but I will say that changing how spells are memorized is foolish, very very foolish. You will eliminate every wizard (and possibly a cleric or druid) with that action. I recommend watching a sorceror (ignore bards, we know they don't work here), and seeing how they perform when run intelligently and craftily (I'm looking at you Jindl, if you do decide to make one ^_~). If necessary, provided one of my chars must be eliminated due to weakness, I might even make one myself... Time will tell. |
| Jindl10-29-03, 01:38 PM | Originally posted by Magagumo In the end, I don't expect people to believe me on this, but I will say that changing how spells are memorized is foolish, very very foolish. You will eliminate every wizard (and possibly a cleric or druid) with that action. I recommend watching a sorceror (ignore bards, we know they don't work here), and seeing how they perform when run intelligently and craftily (I'm looking at you Jindl, if you do decide to make one ^_~). If necessary, provided one of my chars must be eliminated due to weakness, I might even make one myself... Time will tell. I believe you, Magagumo...I don't want the way spells are memorized changed either. I also believe that changing will greatly weaken every class that has to prepare spells, while strengthening those that do not (and really, do barbarians need any strengthening?? Look at Alathar Vierce...) As for me running a sorc, I've got one prepared (a nasty little Forest Gnome Sorc) that I'll run after Turnip the Test Bard loses a couple. But I wouldn't ignore bards, I think Turnip might surprise some people... -Jindl |
| Caterane10-29-03, 01:51 PM | Concerning Sorcerer + Bards can change their spells at every level: :uh-huh: :mymy: :looloo: :thumbsdow Wizards have to buy scrolls because they cannot cast that many and sorcerers have to buy scrolls because they don`t know many. |
| fluiddragon10-29-03, 02:34 PM | I'm also against changing the way spells are memorized. I think it is fine now as it is. Good points with bards abilities outside the areana. And another good point this being a fighting areana where all characters classes and race combos will not be equal. I personally think the arena makes "machine gun" sorcerers stronger than in a typical campaign. With the free access to scrolls of any spell and wands and potions we have here for the mere price of a few gold sorcerers benefit much more than wizards do. They can focus their abilites better, as they have access to far more spells than your typical adventuring sorceror. Bards too for that matter. -fd |
| Magagumo10-29-03, 03:47 PM | Hmm, Moh, I want you to check out Zorander, Ander's replacement (Yes, my other 5th level character is gone). Rogue levels were just unessential, and I had made some very expensive decisions in the past... may his older brother succeed where he failed. (MOds, you do not need to copy his backstory into your fights, that would just be a waste of space ;)) On a second note, the gnome crossbowman, Gorn, has a listing of a +9 on his attack rolls. I read a +2 from Base, +1 from size, +1 mw, +1 weapon focus, and +2 dex, so a +7 total... where's the other 2 coming from? I see +1 more from PBS.. but that's it. |
| Prexx10-29-03, 03:53 PM | I think I need to throw in my opinions on bards/sorcs here. First on the bard topic. I think the main reason that bards are largely unsuccessful in the gladiatorial arena is not because this class or that class is too powerful, it is simply because EVERY class is too powerful in comparison to the bard. The strength of the bard does not lie in direct combat, but rather in versatility. Being able to aid a group in several different facets, and filling in many different roles. Unfortunately, versatility is not particularly helpful in arena combat. They will always get crushed by a raging barbarian, and blown to pieces by a blasting wizard because those classes are in their element in arena combat. It is what they do best. Second, the sorcerer topic. I personally do not see the problem. Yes, their spell aquisition is delayed by 1 level, and that is very troublesome, especially at early levels. However, I think with appriopriate use of scrolls and potions, they can easily get pasted those early levels and be real contenders. For example, in my last fight. Pyre vs Cassandra (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1675660#post1675660), if I were a sorcerer instead of a wizard, it really wouldn't have changed my tactics at all. I would have cast all of my buffs from scrolls, but the outcome would have been exactly the same. The fact that I was a wizard had nothing to do with my tactics, as they would have been virtually identical as a sorcerer (the only change would have been all of the buffs would be cast from scrolls, and the nukes would have been cast from memory instead of scrolls). Finally, the wizard spell memorization topic. First let me say that my only character is a wizard, so I may be a bit biased in my views. However, I will try to be as objective as possible. Forcing a wizard to chose their spells before a match up would be stripping away the one thing that makes them unique among arcane casters, their versatility. Wizards are the only arcane spell caster that has the ability to pick and choose what spells they want to perpare. Originally posted by Magagumo After all, if a wizard sits on the brink of an active volcano, and nows that tomorrow he will be journeying down into a Fire Giant Fortress, is it fair for the GM to say, nope, you memorized those fireball spells back when you entered the jungle, no changing them now because they're immune to fire... In reply to this, I would say that any smart wizard would rest before entering the fire giant fortress and change his spell line up in order to best combat the giants. Orginially posted by Moherajikuyx The simple fact that there are no bards and sorcerers is the clear symptom of a game unbalance, at the eyes of any game designer. But it is also the cause of an impossibility of actually evaluating the problem with facts. So, before the vote, I invite everyone willing to post a new build, to do a sorcerer or a bard. I have the tendency of not trusting arguments like Magagumo's, the one about the power of a 6th lvl sorc, not because of their contents, but because the mere fact that they're theorical. I would rather wait a sorc or a bard to tell their opinions. I concede that my character is not a sorcerer, thus I cannot speak from experience. However, I believe my above example while theoretical, is a VERY close parallel to what a real sorcerer would have done in arena combat. That's it for my rant! :) -Prexx |
| Jindl10-29-03, 04:05 PM | Well, Ander is gone too. That makes two of the higher characters replaced this week (Karse also retired...) It also means there are 4 characters at 5th level (an even number...) So without further ado, I challenge the undefeated Ajax to fight the undefeated Elder. Let's see what's better, might or magic. Let the battle of the undefeated's begin! -Jindl |
| Magagumo10-29-03, 04:36 PM | Glad to hear your opinion, Tellish. One clarification, the wizard would have rested before entering the fire giant fortress, the point was that forcing him to re-memorize the spells he had used prior to that point (perhaps while wading through a jungle filled with posionous ice snakes :-P) would be essentially what making us pick our spells prior to pairings could be compared to- our verastility is nullified, and we are reduced to nothing more to sorcerors with fewer spells ;) I ran the numbers.. 4th level Bruno would have 4 Ghoul Touches... one would have to work ;) Karse left? *tear* I liked our remaining high level LA+1 fighter... Lord, if only Savage Species were Core... :-D |
| Caterane10-29-03, 04:47 PM | Lord, if only Savage Species were Core... :-D Let`s make it core then. I heard someone point out that all character builds are already available. I know that we only wanted to allow core but I also think that Savage Species wouldn`t unbalance anything while at the same time giving us more options |
| Jindl10-29-03, 05:02 PM | We need more moderators before we add more options ;) Just think of all the new characters and therefore the extra fights we'd have to moderate... @Mag - Yeah, Karse retired. I may have another duergar coming soon though... after I test the bard/sorc argument. I'm thinking about a fighter/rogue/barbarian (Improved feint + Improved trip + Power Attack). Just think, he could feint in combat, then trip you, then power attack+sneak attack you when you're prone. The trip and power attack synergize well with the spell-like enlarge person, plus the sneak attack synergizes well with the spell-like invisibility. Could be cool. Kinda like a Karse do-over, having learned how to optimize better from the first run. Similar to Ander and his big brother, I think ;) -Jindl EDIT: give credit to Funny Slaughter for the fighter/rogue/barb trip build... (but I can't take all his prestige classes/feral template/or half of his feats...) |
| Tellish_of_Ket10-29-03, 05:28 PM | @Mag, actually that was Prexx's opinion. He just happened to have chosen the same avatar as me. :P As for me, i'm definately not in favor of mem'ing spells before pairing. I think the way it's being done now is perfectly fine. @ Jindl, someone already has that build in the arena here. Wish i could remember the name off-hand. But it's there. I'll have to go back and take a look. I'll edit this later when i find it. Sorcerers work, don't kid yourself. It just can't be an ecl+1 race. That way you're really stunting his growth. And he can't be non-human. But then again, that's just my opinion. That extra feat and skills is really huge at low lvl. Tellish |
| Moherajikuyx10-29-03, 05:50 PM | People... We are COers. We choosed the wizos, not the sorcs. Guess what? This is the reason I understood sorcs and bards are screwed. Not reasonings about power level, that are futile at this point: the same ones that you give, fluid Tellish Maga and Prexx, may be used against your thesis (exercise left to the reader :D). We'll see with the future examples. I give you people a week to convince me that spontaneous casters don't suk with these rules. I wonder why I didn't notice before. But let's rejoice! Pairings tomorrow! - Ugh I just failed my fort save vs. blindness :cool: *edit* Cat, SS is out in this thread, sorry. The reason may be found in the unhappy end that finished the life of the old Arena thread. |
| fluiddragon10-29-03, 06:13 PM | I think one of the reasons that Sorc/Bards are not as popular is the fact that CHA is a dump stat for most builds (being the character optimization thread). Every other stat has some combat aspect to it. If you are going to multi class at all CHA is a dump stat for everything but paladins. Here you have to put a large portion of your precious ability points into something that ONLY effects your spells. Clerics/Druids use WIS, Helps with the most needed skills, and will saves. Wizards use INT, helps with skill points and access to some good feats (combat expertise). This makes the High CHA character have less points to spend on the combat stats. I really tried to get an 18 or 20 in dex for Gage, but this would not leave much left over for the other abilities if I wanted CHA high as well. And you want to avoid STR penalties if you use a ranged weapon, and you need the skill points and will save so there were no real dump stats, just trying to avoid penalties. Also the hit a sorc take with spell levels hurts any multi- classer, I think thats why you see more wizards/multi- class wizards. 4 levels is a long time to wait for 2nd level spells, not a good combo when you can cast almost as many spells as a sorc if you specialize. I think any race but Humans, Elves (wild), gnomes are at a major disadvantage for this class. (And with core only there are only so many good spells and race combos) It can easily start looking like a clone factory. Gnomes with all their abilities and small size are pretty good. Humans with the extra feat is very important. The elves weapon proficiencies and imunity to sleep are worth it. I don't think High elves are good due to the hit to CON, which any gladiator needs. When we pair up lets try to avoid Sorc/Bard pairs. It looks like we have a few new characters to test the viability of sorc and bards. I think it would be better to see how the Sorc/Bard fares against the barbarians and wizards, and the others rather than each other. I think this would offer a better test of the classes. -fd |
| Caterane10-29-03, 06:18 PM | @Moh: I didn`t participate in this old arena so I`ll trust you on that. |
| Tellish_of_Ket10-29-03, 06:29 PM | Alright, seeing all the talk about sorc/bard, i decided to make a sorcerer. Everyone welcome Skar to the battle mix. You may laugh, but hey...i do have an eventual plan with him. Tellish |
| fluiddragon10-29-03, 06:36 PM | If we need more variety in the character builds we could start the characters at level 3. This would allow a few other races to be playable. Just a thought. -fd |
| Caterane10-29-03, 06:43 PM | We discussed this over and over without any real decision on it. The best idea was - ECL+2, first level Commoner; is to be replaced with a real class after victory - ECL+2, using the rules for apprentice levels from DMG, with 1 class only Let`s vote on it. |
| sloisel10-29-03, 07:32 PM | Originally posted by Caterane Let`s make it core then. I heard someone point out that all character builds are already available. I know that we only wanted to allow core but I also think that Savage Species wouldn`t unbalance anything while at the same time giving us more options You're joking right? I've got dibs on the anthropomorphic bat druid. Sébastien Loisel |
| Caterane10-29-03, 07:45 PM | Meant "Races of Faerun" (haven`t read SS) |
| Magagumo10-29-03, 08:56 PM | Hehe, I can imagine that certain Savage Species stuff causes problems.. some of those spells are a bit much (see Earth Reaver, 4th level cleric/wiz spell, 4d6 fire, 3d6 bludgeoning, no scale-up on damage but the radius of 10' per level gets real huge, real fast (oh and Reflex save to not fall over ^_~).) I've always been a big fan of the monster progressions as well, but I can understand Moh's reluctance to let it in (+1 ECL for Feral, which gets you big str and con, and potentially fast healing. Coupled with Multi-headed template, and you have the fiercest ECL 4, two-headed fearl dwarf barbarain you ever did see ;)) I always liked the commoner level idea for the ECL +2, but I wonder if they would ever have a chance at that point? Also, considering how a lot of our characters are climbing into the level 4/5/6 (even 7) range, I wonder if starting at 2nd level is necessary anymore? After all, several people (such as Jindl and I) have each retired higher level chars, abnd are now starting abck at 2nd level. It could be a long time before we ever reach Jindl, Alathar Vierce, Bilo, Ebelin, or Moon-Moon. Thusly, I propose that next week, we all start building characters at level 3. Yes, I realize this somewhat invalidates our 2nd level fights, but I do believe the benefit could be huge. We'll have new ideas pouring in, as the LA +1 and even +2 become viable/usable. This could ward off stagnation as we watch the higher level characters dueling one another, over and over again. I know it's a bit crazy (and like I said, you might as well just run the 2nd level stuff for fun, before allowing everyone to update to level 3 as fresh, brand-new characters), but there is a lot of potential there ^_^ Oh, quote for Ander's Graveyard, "When you're not sure if you should shoot and run, hide and shoot, or run and hide, maybe you should just go home." |
| Jindl10-29-03, 09:24 PM | Here's my reasoning on beginning at level 3 (aka. ECL 3): Take a look at how many characters have a level adjustment. Well, there is the tiefling mage... but she lost. Then there was the fish, who wasn't bad, but was way behind the power curve. Then there was another tiefling monk, but he lost. Then there was Karse, but he struggled. All in all, only Karse won his first fight, and it was against another LA+1 creature (the fish). All of these characters were behind the powercurve, both for abilities and hps. Why would anyone want to make this worse by allowing LA+2's? Take a look at all those newly 3rd level characters. They all had to fight (and expend resources) to get there. If we start creating level 3 characters next week, then we have just been unfair to every character that ever had to fight to be 3rd level. And I'm not just talking about the effort. I'm talking about feat progressions (sometimes you take a feat earlier, just to help you get to 3rd level.) I'm talking about lost money (both in the potions/scrolls used in the 2nd level fight, as well as the money lost when 3rd level characters upgraded their armor and weapons.) Simply put, any character who begins at 3rd level has an advantage over those characters that began at 2nd level. I see no reason to start at ECL3 (and believe it, a drow commoner is still ECL 3.) The disadvantage you place all currently 3rd level and higher characters in, is not worth the benefit of being able to play a 3rd level character with one hit die - who I think, you will all learn is uber weak in this arena (simple hit point comparison, Human Fighter 3 vs anything with LA+2 and Fighter 1. The Human has about 2.5 times the hps, a better bab, two extra feats, better saves, better skills, etc. ) And as for more variety, all of the LA+2 creatures will be forced to be non-casters. I think Mo can testify to how much losing 1 caster level costs. Try losing two. And also, with their reduced HD, they are affected by magic like sleep up until 6th level!! Deep slumber til 12th level. Holy word autokill !! I'm telling ya, LA+2 just won't survive in the arena. So I vote that we stay as we are. We have not even begun to test the limits of variety (as my cleric Diana proves.) Where are all the bards, rogues, and fighters, and archers? Why haven't we seen different types of clerics? How about a necromancer. There are better ways to be creative than just looking for a new race. Although, I do like those forest gnomes. ;) Some worry that we have seen many similar builds, but I say that's fine, because most of them will grow more different as they develop. And yet, we still could create different 2nd level characters that are equally effective. (How about a wiz/monk who starts combat by casting a 5th level chill touch or shocking grasp...) Just as an example. So please, lets stay away from the LA+2's. They're not that great. All of this is my opinion, and your all welcome to your own opinions, unless they're different than mine. ;) -Jindl |
| Magagumo10-30-03, 12:08 AM | ha, no necromancer? What did you think Bruno is? ;) Your points aren. bad, Jindl, though my ideas of LA+s should more appropriately be considered not as chars lacking 2 HD. but those who utilize monster HD. I agree, loosing 2 HD is bad, byut consider the additions of lizardfolk (maybe bugbears, not asure) to our fair arena. As for the gold, myy figuring is that this could be initiated within 2 or 3 weeks with planning to smooth the transition being incorporated. Just my addtional 2 sp ;) |
| Jindl10-30-03, 12:56 AM | I though Bruno was one of those vaudeville performers... a ventrilo-something. Or he could be a pompous english mafia/fight organizer... Or maybe he's a gnome illusionist who dabbles with necromancy. :) -Jindl PS: So I guessed your movie reference (Snatch). Can you figure out where the inspiration for the Elder's familiar came from? EDIT: Bugbears are 3HD +1 LA = ECL 4... There are only three monsters with 2 HD and a +1 LA = ECL 3, and they are gnoll, lizardfolk and locathah. There are several 1 HD +2 LA = ECL 3's. They are drow elf, fiendish (race), celestial (race), githyanki, and githzerai. But I think anything fighting at 3rd level with only 1 HD is gonna get smoked. |
| LLMadCow10-30-03, 02:35 AM | Quote by Jindl So I guessed your movie reference (Snatch). Can you figure out where the inspiration for the Elder's familiar came from? This may not have been directed at me, but I figure I shall answer anyway, if no one minds too much... "Bubo" the Owl Class: Aves Order: Strigiformes Family: Strigidae Genus: BUBO So, does Bubo have a last name? And wouldn't Micrathene, or some derivative there of, have been slightly more appropriate? And are you into LARPing? |
| Moherajikuyx10-30-03, 05:35 AM | Jindl's arguments, the lack of power of LA+2s are really right. But I struggle, and many others, in the curiosity of how would racial hds monsters fair in the arena! But then, the arguments about third lvl feat and such are really right too... And SS is really out of the way, for the reasons given. Proposed solution (from next week): let's allow LA+1, 2 monster HDs in the arena. They'll have to start from 1monster HD, and get the other one then. I think they'll be weak. But I think someone will eventually consider the experiment. How's the idea? This doesn't violate absolutely the actual rules, which is a good point on my opinion. Are there any 2hd, ECL +1 monsters that have strange and maybe unbalancing abilities? High DR, strange immunities like vegetables' come to mind. This would be a con, but maybe would be paired by the (demonstrated) low power level of LA+1 races. |
| WolfWings10-30-03, 06:15 AM | Updated Ralin. I'd request that if we have an odd number of combatants this week, leave Ralin out of the Arena this go-around? =^.^= I'll still run a fight. :-) |
| Irlina10-30-03, 07:17 AM | @cat I know I could rename someone and let him fight again. But till I lost all my fights till now :( (mostly tough luck, some rule interpretations I won't share, but I won't blame the moderatore since they're the DM ) and have more than enough character ideas I will keep switching 2nd lvl chars. :) @mo...monster hd I like his idea of allowing them by simply removing 1 hd from ECL+1 2hd races. It's simple and doesn't seem broken, since the other advantages are not too big. (The most likely addition seem to be Lizardmen.) |
| Jindl10-30-03, 07:46 AM | @Mo - There are only three monsters with 2 HD and a +1 LA = ECL 3, and they are gnoll, lizardfolk and locathah. Remember that they all gain humaniod hd (d8 hp, 3/4 bab, good reflex, 2+int skills, simple weapons, and whatever armor is listed in the MM entry.) So one of these with 1 hd, no class, and an LA +1 is really weak. @ LLMadCow - okay, so you got the scientific reference... but did you know that I originally got the name (and idea) from a movie (much like Magagumo's Bruno...) Anybody know what movie? I like Mo's suggestion about allowing 1 monster HD. But I have another suggestion to (hopefully) settle the whole ECL 3, argument. Let's allow players to have ECL 3 characters, but said characters count as having 2 pc's for purposes of moderating fights. (So if you're only character is a Lizardfolk, he would start at 3rd level (ie. 2 racial HD + 1 LA + no class levels) but he would count as having 2 pc's when it came time to moderate fights.) This avoids any tricky monster advancement rules, helps us keep the number of characters down, and with the LA and the fact that they start with no class levels, these characters will be pretty weak. This also does allow for the drow, githyanki, and other LA+2 races (although I think they'll prove to be uber weak as well.) So, starting an ECL 3 race at 3rd level = having 2 pcs... What do you guys think? -Jindl |
| Caterane10-30-03, 07:50 AM | @Irlina: Sure, but if you always change your characters no one can get used to them. At least they`re all called Tanya :) @Mo: Mo-st impressive! That idea with the Mo-nster HD is really great! Let`s do it that way. @Jindl: By jindo! Your idea also jindles in my ears. Let`s do it that way. When do you set the pairings? |
| Moherajikuyx10-30-03, 08:13 AM | Jindl - I prefer my idea coz if that works, we could eventually go on, allowing bugbears and so on in the future. I really miss bugbears! :D Yours' good too though. *edit* Pairings posted! I hope I don't forget anything. |
| Caterane10-30-03, 08:55 AM | Ebelin challenges Bilo Hrmpf, got the druid :sad: I am searching for a soul, preferably not the kobold`s, to trap and sent to a dark realm. Hrmpf, got the kobold :mad: Ok, let`s see who moderates the Harvester ... :eek: Hrmpf, and who moderates Ebelin? ... :bigeyes: :tantrum: |
| Caterane10-30-03, 09:00 AM | @Alathar + Snark: I`ve just been invited to a birthday party on friday and one on saturday, sunday is d&d session with my group, so I would prefer to get the tactics as soon as possible. If you send them today I`ll immideately begin to run it. Else it can take til Monday/Tuesday. @Magagumo: Just kidding :angel: |
| MadCowTemplate10-30-03, 09:15 AM | "MOOOO!" MCT runs huffing up to the registration counter, hoping he's made it in time to enter his combatent. @ MO: Gladiator ready I rebooted Cora "Lobber" Leagallow, making a few alterations and tidying up the sheet slightly. Her name is now Lora "Cobler" Seagallow. Sorry about the late notice, I forgot to post this last night. If I'm too late, no biggie... I'll just devour some of your cattle.;) MOOOOO! (Okay, I'm done) |
| WolfWings10-30-03, 09:18 AM | Quick query...? When people hide in the Arena, is it considered brightly lit, or shadows? Asking, as looking over the pairings my two chars are up against, one has a Hawk Familiar, the other is a Deep Dwarf. Both get a nice bonus for spot rolls, but I can't see both being able to apply their bonuses in the same Arena. So is the Arena Brightly Lit (so Deep Dwarves don't get a bonus to spot rolls) or Shadowy (so Sorc's need to have an Owl, not a Hawk, familiar) anyways? If it's Shadowy, which seems to cause the least problems rules-wise, I'm fine with my opponent having an Owl instead of a Hawk, just wanted to point out this rule complication. |
| Moherajikuyx10-30-03, 09:29 AM | MCT - Cobler's vs. Paul WW - it's not bright nor shadowy, it's among and both get the bonus. Cat - about the challenge, Jindl's note was right, sorry. - about the rest, ehr... Yes... What??:confused: :) Challenges: I'm OK with the idea, but you have to challenge in this thread, have the challenge accepted, and then mail it to me (or I will not remember, sorry). I will consider challenges only after the "doesn't play roll": so if one is broken, for the roll, I'll put the challenger/challenged back in the roll pool. This way, we don't have to limit it to even numbers. I'll write this in the rules, if no one finds problems. |
| WolfWings10-30-03, 09:37 AM | That seems a little incorrect. I can't see how the arena can give full bonuses to both a deep dwarf, AND a hawk familiar. Both rely on opposites from each other. And if it's between, neither would get the bonus, not both. Or do you mean some areas (like right around rocks and pillar bases) are shadowy, the rest of the arena is well lit? And a last question rolled into this post... what happens with a wizard or sorc gets their familiar killed? Do they 'lose' a level then, so their skills, HP, and so-forth go down one notch, or do they have enough XP to ignore the loss of their familiar? |
| SnarkHunter10-30-03, 10:06 AM | Oh come on Cat he isn't that bad...all the time...some of the time...I hope... (kidding Mag, you know we love you) There is a problem though, Alathar hasn't updated his character yet, he's still at 6th level, with his old equipment...And if there's one thing Moon-moon demands, its a fair fight!:angel: Edit: WW I think we've just been running it people need to pay to summon a new familiar but thats all. Same for druid and paladin companions (no waiting a year to get a new one!) Yikes, I'm all freaked out just thinking about it. |
| WolfWings10-30-03, 10:12 AM | Actually, you can get your familiar resurrected. And I meant DURING the fight, what impact if any does it have. The XP-loss happens the instant a Familiar dies, not later. |
| Jindl10-30-03, 10:41 AM | @ WolfWings - We assume the arena grants full benefit to both, because its magic... (Meta: We want to avoid any background lighting issues, so assume there is enough light or enough shadow, for any special abilities to work normally.) Now if someone casts a daylight spell, then within the radius we would use only the spells illumination... As for familiars dying, the master doesn't suffer any xp penalties during the fight (arena rule.) They would however, lose the benefits that the familiar provides (alertness and the owl bonus in the elder's case...) After the fight, the familiar can be replaced at a cost of 100 gp. He is not ressurected (none of the allies are.) I've been thinking that it should cost 100 gp + 5 gp per xp lost... but we haven't implemented that. If that were the case, then the moderate would make that fort save for the wizard as the last part of the fight (after a character died and when recording win/loss/and items used.) @ Mo- Magagumo and I both had new 2nd level char's posted (and set ready). Could they be matched up? If someone (Motherbast, barrel_master, etc.) will moderate the fight, then I'll take one of their fights... -Jindl |
| Tellish_of_Ket10-30-03, 11:01 AM | Originally posted by Jindl @ LLMadCow - okay, so you got the scientific reference... but did you know that I originally got the name (and idea) from a movie (much like Magagumo's Bruno...) Anybody know what movie? -Jindl Clash of the Titans? Tellish |
| Jindl10-30-03, 11:03 AM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket Clash of the Titans? Tellish Ding. Ding. Ding. We have a winner. |
| Tellish_of_Ket10-30-03, 11:05 AM | Hurtz, Tellish_of_Ket vs. Curungûr, Moherajikuyx: Tellish_of_Ket Yay, i win. :) hehe. Hey MO, can you switch that up with another moderator. It would be kinda hard for me to moderate my own fight. If i won it'd be tough to pass it as leggit. Tellish |
| Magagumo10-30-03, 01:08 PM | CLash of ther Titans, huh? I never would have thought of that, but I have seen it.. and it probably would have nagged at me ^_~ I accept the board's ribbing in good taste, Cat's characters have simply proven to be excellent guinea pigs for my "Evil DM" mode :-P Nah, we're getting there.. I like your suggestion Jindl, on the 3rd level chars= 2 pcs. Good advantage, but you also have to be MOdDing to even use it (go elite tier!). We might as well institute the 4th level for 3 pcs next week, if this style proves effective. I certainly wouldn't trash all my chars for a bugbear.. but it's tempting nonetheless ^_~ |
| barrel_master10-30-03, 01:10 PM | I have a question concerneing scrolls... can a character use one if it's not in his or her class list of spells? From the SRD I read ' • The user must have the spell on his or her class list.' - magicitems IV |
| Caterane10-30-03, 01:21 PM | There is a problem though, Alathar hasn't updated his character yet, he's still at 6th level, with his old equipment...And if there's one thing Moon-moon demands, its a fair fight! ...and you`ll get it. Let`s rule that Alathar may tell us in which class he levels and I`ll calculate his new stats based on that. There is however no editing or buying new equipment. I think 2 weeks time were enough to do this. Hurtz, Tellish_of_Ket vs. Curungûr, Moherajikuyx: Tellish_of_Ket Ah, good ol' Mo :D |
| SnarkHunter10-30-03, 01:26 PM | I don't really care if equipment changes actually (since there wasn't any question we'd be facing each other), but he probably should have some input on his character... Anywho I'll still e-mail tactics for Moon-moon after lab (about ~3 hours) tah! |
| Caterane10-30-03, 01:41 PM | Fair enough. I just sent him a mail. If he doesn`t reply or edit I will run Alathar Vierce as he is now (Lvl 6) and use the default tactics. |
| WolfWings10-30-03, 01:49 PM | Okay, just to check that I haven't been misinterpreting things somewhere... Using Use Magic Device, a Rogue or Bard can use any Scroll they make the DC for, right? |
| Jindl10-30-03, 01:58 PM | @ WolfWings - UMD allows you to use any scroll, wand, etc. regardless of class. @ Cat - If Alathar doesn't update, then his character should be marked as not [OK] and there is no fight. I really hope he does update though... -Jindl |
| Caterane10-30-03, 02:12 PM | Great. Asides from thinking about a worthy story all day I`ve just finished the introduction :mad: |
| Magagumo10-30-03, 02:34 PM | I agree with jindl, Moh, you might as well have our new characters fight one another, since they were both made Wednesday. As long as you can find a Moderator, everything should work fine... |
| SnarkHunter10-30-03, 03:17 PM | I'd still like to see this fight happen, so I wouldn't mind waiting till Monday or tuesday *. Besides I've already developed tacts...wacky tactics! *Only fair considering how long some of mine have taken...;). Also I think the character slots for extra characters is a neato idea, and I am in favor. |
| Prexx10-30-03, 03:41 PM | Just a minor book keeping issue for you Mo. On the roster, under the "This weeks players:" heading, I am not listed as a player. Not a big deal, but would be nice to see myself listed. Thanks! :) P.S. I also sent my tactics to Tellish, let me know if you did not recieve them. -Prexx |
| Moherajikuyx10-30-03, 04:51 PM | Originally posted by Caterane Ah, good ol' Mo :D You think that was funny? Get this... I even sent Kellish the tactics against him!!! :( I R DAMB Prexx - sorry pal!! Here you are. |
| Pitlords10-30-03, 04:54 PM | About AV vs. Moon m: do you guys want to send me the equipment either, so that it's secret? Having only one opponent makes for little surprise in choosing the opponent; this is the reason that made me close an eye with AV's unreadyness. |
| fluiddragon10-30-03, 04:57 PM | I sent tactics for Gage and Xaver to the respective mods. Let me know if you didn't get them. -fd |
| Prexx10-30-03, 04:59 PM | I just wanted to clarify a few things. If I have the appropriate feats, I am able to create my own custom magical items following the rules printed in the DMG correct? If so, let me see if I have this correct. Assuming I have craft wonderous item. Boots of Expeditious Retreat or an Amulet of Shield would cost 2666 gp (2/3 of base price since self crafted)? A Brooch of Mage Armor would cost 1333, where as helm of mage armor would cost 2000? Ioun Stone of Displacement is 160,000? The one thing I didn't quite understand was the "multiple similar abilities". Would this make an Amulet of Mage Armor/Shield/Natural Armor +2 cost 8000 gp? (Natural armor 8000 + Shield 3000 (4000 * .75) + Mage Armor 1000 (2000 * .5) = 12000 * .66 = 8000) Just trying to double check my math. Also trying to make sure I have a good understanding of the item creation rules. I'm thinking of picking up some magical items for Pyre, but if I can craft my own custom items, I would have a lot more options available to me. |
| Tellish_of_Ket10-30-03, 05:05 PM | K, tactics for both my gladiators have been sent to Fluiddragon since he's moding both my fights. Tactics recieved for Pyre, and Mara. Oh yeah, and from MO for vs Hurtz. lol Tellish (i am so gonna pay for poking fun at that error) I can just see him writing Fluid, "Make sure that sob pays for his mockery". lol |
| Moherajikuyx10-30-03, 05:09 PM | Added fight: Turnip the Test Bard, Jindl vs. Zorander Brogaden, Magagumo: LLMadCow *edit* people, tell me when I there are new level 2 characters, especially if they aren't on the last page: I don't have the time to check all the posts of the thread. In case you did and I missed the post, sorry. Most of the moderators now have a credit. I'll delete a credit when all the moderators have at least one. Sounds good? Prexx - this is the idea. If you find something obviously broken, please report it to the threads, as LLMadCow did with the buying spellcasting thing. This way we won't have to discuss it later. Consider that it's not been done yet, so it's considered under scrutiny. |
| Caterane10-30-03, 05:21 PM | Tactics recieved for Pyre, and Mara. Oh yeah, and from MO for vs Hurtz. lol :heehee What´s the credit thing about? |
| Moherajikuyx10-30-03, 05:25 PM | :headexplo don't joke me I don't have a sense of humour I'm an android |
| barrel_master10-30-03, 05:49 PM | Ralin vs Marcus posted... tell me if anything is REALLY messed up or if you thought it was too gorry. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1712872#post1712872 |
| barrel_master10-30-03, 05:53 PM | I got gage's fluid. |
| Moherajikuyx10-30-03, 05:55 PM | Credit thing: as you see, there are moderators with 3 pcs and moderators with 2 which will both do 2 fights. In such case, the mod with 2 gets a credit; this way I keep sure that no one does always more work, at least as number of fights moderated. |
| fluiddragon10-30-03, 06:46 PM | Originally posted by barrel_master Ralin vs Marcus posted... tell me if anything is REALLY messed up or if you thought it was too gorry. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1712872#post1712872 Loved it! |
| fluiddragon10-30-03, 06:51 PM | Got tactics for Hurtz and Cur. |
| fluiddragon10-30-03, 09:49 PM | 2 questions about the rules I want to know. 1. I'm looking up summon swarm in the SRD (Don't have the books I'm 2 cheap) It says the swarm attacks all creatures inside the swarm but doesn't give any effects of these attacks. What are the effects? 2. How exactly are we handling sneak and hide checks. There was some confusion the last couple days and I want to make sure I handle these right. Are we requireing Hide and MS checks everytime the hider moves? Does the original spot / listen check hold untill the spotter uses an action to spot/listen again? If you sneak out of cover and the spotter has a line of sight are you automatically found? Or do they use their original spot/listen check untill they spend an action to roll these checks again? Anything else I'm missing? Thanks -fd |
| WolfWings10-30-03, 10:40 PM | ...Bard's work, and are evil. I need a 12 or higher to pull off that blasted fireball trick. A 33% chance. BOTH times I've tried it, it's gone off on the first round it's been tried. =@.@= |
| Magagumo10-30-03, 10:43 PM | The effects of the swarm vary from one swarm to the next (spiders have posion, bats cause you to bleed 1 hp per round, rats spread filth fever), but each swarm deals a d6 of damage based on its HD. I belive all three aforementioned swarms deal 1d6 points of damage to all creatures within its 10' by 10' area. Once again, i remind people that it is very hard to kill swarms... area effects or torches only (at least fror those produced by summon swarm I believe). As for the similar abilities line, Tellish, that is only applicable when the abilitiescannot be activated at once. Thusly, this rule applies almost solely to staves, whcih are often based around a group of spells, but require a standard action to activate them (so one spell per round). BY putting two abilities on the same item that can be active at the same time (like a mage armor/ shield item) would cost 2000 gp for continuous mage armor (which, I might add, is already found in bracers of armor... so I'm not sure if constant mage armor items are legit) and 4000 for the shield (1st caster, 1st spell, 2x for minute duration) then the 4000 gp for the shield would be doubled, as you have two abilities that are actiive at once, and the higher cost is doubled. Thusly, your amulet of mage armor/shield, if permissible, would cost 10000 gp, or 15000 if placed on an unusual spot (like a helm). Of course, crafting it yourself defrays the cost a bit (6666 gp or 10000 gp) but its quite hefty overall. On the note of the mage armor being only 2000 gp for continuous +4 bonus, but 4000 gp only buys you a +2 armor bonus from bracers.. thoughts? My two cents, its a balance issue, so I wouldn't recommend continuous mage armor. Displacement cloaks cost 50k but a continuous item with a 5th caster, 3rd level spell, and a 4x increase for being rounds duration would cost 160k!! Obviously, certain items have been adjusted for balance, and we need to keep this in mind... |
| WolfWings10-30-03, 11:05 PM | The difference is that the +2 Bracers only require a 3rd-level feat to craft. The ring of Mage Armor requires a 12th-level feat to craft. |
| LLMadCow10-30-03, 11:14 PM | @Motherbast - I sent you a follow up e-mail. This is in case you are looking to run the combat between Allister and Rizzen and have not noticed it yet. The e-mail details some serious changes to the combat that should help me a great bit. Thanks. |
| SnarkHunter10-31-03, 12:48 AM | 2. How exactly are we handling sneak and hide checks. There was some confusion the last couple days and I want to make sure I handle these right. Check out mo's post on page 45, Thats how I ran it for the Ander Ebelin fight, and though time consuming I think its the most accurate. Are we requireing Hide and MS checks everytime the hider moves? Yes, the thing to keep track of is the starting and ending position of the mover. When the hiding character moves you use the shorter distance between the two. Note that you also make spot/listen when the observer moves. For those you use the longer distance between the two. Does the original spot / listen check hold untill the spotter uses an action to spot/listen again? Nope, the spot and listen checks change reactivly round by round. The only time they would not change would be if both hider and observer maintained the same position. If you sneak out of cover and the spotter has a line of sight are you automatically found? Or do they use their original spot/listen check untill they spend an action to roll these checks again? This is the only one I'm not sure about but I think that if you end your move without cover relative to your opponent (and given all the pillars and stones in the arena that isn't easy!) then I think they automaticly see you. I think that's everything! |
| sloisel10-31-03, 02:31 AM | Originally posted by Magagumo I belive all three aforementioned swarms deal 1d6 points of damage to all creatures within its 10' by 10' area. Once again, i remind people that it is very hard to kill swarms... area effects or torches only (at least fror those produced by summon swarm I believe). I think you are incorrect. Those three swarms are just about the only ones you can kill with weapons. Most (all?) the other swarms say "immune to weapons" in their description, but those particular swarms only have "half damage from slashing or piercing weapons" and in particular, they take full damage from blunt weapons. Sébastien Loisel |
| Tellish_of_Ket10-31-03, 04:13 AM | Originally posted by Magagumo As for the similar abilities line, Tellish, that is only applicable when the abilitiescannot be activated at once. Thusly, this rule applies almost solely to staves, whcih are often based around a group of spells, ... I think you mean Prexx :P He has the same avatar as me. :( Tellish, ps.Tactics recieved from Kerlan Rayne. So fight between Kerlan Rayne and Mara is about to be posted soon. |
| Irlina10-31-03, 04:40 AM | Sorry, but I don't like the fight Marcus vs. Ralin!!! Why? Because my tactics said someone else than my spupid mage did! I first wanted to destroy the Fireball scroll! And what did my mage do? Approaching to melee without even buffing? HELLO??? Where did I say that? I see there a clause "if melee do..." but I nowhere say I want to close up to the enemy. It's just for the case Mr. Ralin wants to melee me. I just want first to destroy fireball scroll, than buff with shield and start shooting. If enemy tries to melee I will use spells (color spray and stuff). Sorry, if my tactics have been written confusing, but why didn't I get another EMail to clarify? |
| WolfWings10-31-03, 05:25 AM | I'll give Irlina that. Ralin got the chance to 'wake up' at -9 HP last round. Give Irlina a single ranged attack to try to take out the scroll before I can cast it. If she manages, cool, keep running the fight. Otherwise, it wouldn't make a difference. Ralin nuked Marcus on the very first round of combat. |
| Caterane10-31-03, 06:19 AM | @Tellish: Conc.: Tomar vs Mara. Didn`t you forget something? |
| Galamdring10-31-03, 06:33 AM | I have just checked... My opponent doesn't have 13 int, so how can he have combat expertise and improved trip. Perhaps i may have misread something. Please enlighten me... :) Thanks |
| Irlina10-31-03, 06:48 AM | Thx WolfWings, that's very fair. But I don't really think rerunning fights is a good idea as this would open the famous box of Pandora. I just was a little bit angry after first reading the fight. BTW I would have had 2 shots :) since you wasted time casting Exp Retr.. So I'm not content but can accept my loss, since communication problems can always happen. Your char has made the hard roll of using his scroll and paid more than enough for his win (BTW, I think since your char was 2nd lvl. you don't have to repay your used scroll since you can simply reequip him). |
| Tellish_of_Ket10-31-03, 08:12 AM | Mara vs Tomar posted, Ok, that took almost 3 hrs, holy mackeral. OK, i really hope i didn't make any mistakes. It was a long drawn out fight. It was quite a see-saw battle. I hope both participants are satisfied with the way i ran it, things didn't go according to plan and a lot of ad-libbing had to be done. All i can say, is that one of the two is EXTREMELY frustrated right about now, cursing the dice gods to no end. The rolls can be found at http://krisinchico.brinkster.net/rolldata.asp Use the search for names Mara and Tomar. All i can say is using the online rolling is much lengthier than rolling manually. It will possibly be the last time i use it. As for Tomar not having the 13 int...hm. I have to admit i didn't notice this. I just took into account that he's had 5 previous fights and some by senior moderators and all was ok. An assumption i won't make again i assure u. Tellish |
| Moherajikuyx10-31-03, 08:29 AM | Lucient Noctern, Magagumo vs. Brackin Bonesnapper, MotherBast, or the Struggle of the Monks posted, with the participation of Rito Maya as commentator! Tellish, I think someone already noticed it and told Tomar to move 1 point from Cha to Int: he's got no Cha skills. Irlina, that's nice: you're right about the Pandora's box. |
| Galamdring10-31-03, 09:17 AM | Tellish, thanks for running the fight but... I NEVER said i wanted to take off my armor or charge him. Secondly, I was saving potion of bull's STR and the oil for another fight, NOT this one. You should not have used these potions as i didn't mentioned anything in the tactics. Great rolls (i appologise to my opponent), but i think you went way off whats mentioned in the tactics. :mad: |
| Tellish_of_Ket10-31-03, 09:25 AM | Originally posted by Galamdring Tellish, thanks for running the fight but... I NEVER said i wanted to take off my armor or charge him. hmm...that was a joke. It actually takes several minutes to take off your armor. Please re-read that section. lol Originally posted by Galamdring Secondly, I was saving potion of bull's STR and the oil for another fight, NOT this one. You should not have used these potions as i didn't mentioned anything in the tactics. Great rolls (i appologise to my opponent), but i think you went way off whats mentioned in the tactics. You had decent penalties to hit. Requiring decent luck to hit him, it was a tactically advantageous for u to use them. It meant life or death. I'll remember that for next though, rest assured i only ever make a mistake once. It won't be repeated. Sorry you think i went way off, won't happen again. Tellish |
| Galamdring10-31-03, 09:29 AM | ...OK... Perhaps i was a bit harsh... sorry about that. |
| WolfWings10-31-03, 09:54 AM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Irlina, that's nice: you're right about the Pandora's box. But is she right about 2nd-level folks getting to re-equip? =O.o= If so, it won't change Ralin much, I'll just snag another fireball scroll, the only item it would affect in the first place. =^.^= Now, if I survive to the NEXT level, things get fun. :angel: |
| Moherajikuyx10-31-03, 09:58 AM | Nope, you got to change the name. |
| Caterane10-31-03, 10:04 AM | you're right about the Pandora's box. Yeah, but moderators should pay more attention to the tactics. It is insufficient to read them once and then throw them away. I always have them open while I run the fight and check them round by round. After the fight is finished I double-check the whole thing. Of course, I`m not saying that I don`t make any mistakes but if someone writes to ready an action to prevent the enemy from using the one scroll that would kill immideately then this is not to be excused. Jindl once proposed a penalty for grave moderator fault`s, something like a one-match-ban for his character. Sounds good to me. |
| barrel_master10-31-03, 10:16 AM | In regards to the Ralin, Marcus fight... My intention was to get closer in order to negate the -4 range penalty... was it the right thing to do? Maybe not. |
| Caterane10-31-03, 10:25 AM | My intention was to get closer in order to negate the -4 range penalty... was it the right thing to do? Maybe not. Ok, the -4 penalty is negated but the scroll - the reason to move closer - is long gone or surrounding you in form of a ball of flames respectively. So what`s the deal in moving closer in the first place? Indeed, maybe not. |
| Irlina10-31-03, 10:31 AM | Hitting a scroll flatfooted is AC 9+4 (range) if I remember corectly. With 1 HP. My tohit was +3, so I would have a good chance and hoped for good ini to nuke scroll before it would nuke me.... but I knew waiting would be much more dangerous. And I never wanted to move! AC 10+2(dex)+4(ms)+4(shield)=20 should be good, exp. at range, to fight a long crossbow-duell- even with a mage. My problem was his high spellcraft: I thought he would try to move in sleep-range, make the spellcraft-roll and move out again before casting is finished to make me waste a spell. So I made a long-range-tactics with color-spray as last resort to prevent him from meleeing me. Well, appearantly there was kind of miscommunication, next time I'll try to write my tactics more clearly. :) Thx anyway for running the fight. |
| Jindl10-31-03, 10:33 AM | Can somebody show me in the rules where it says you can destroy a scroll in another person's possession (or any items for that matter) with a ranged attack? According to the SRD, sundering can only be attempted with blunt or slashing melee weapons. Therefore you couldn't sunder Ralin's scroll because your crossbow is a piercing, ranged weapon. The fact is, Ralin's gotten lucky on Use Magic Device twice. Of course those scrolls of fireball will get expensive, and somebody is eventually gonna get a potion/scroll of resist fire and negate that tactic. The good news is that Marcus can be renamed and re-equiped as a fresh 2nd level character. -Jindl |
| LLMadCow10-31-03, 11:04 AM | Quote by Jindl Can somebody show me in the rules where it says you can destroy a scroll in another person's possession (or any items for that matter) with a ranged attack? According to the SRD, sundering can only be attempted with blunt or slashing melee weapons. Therefore you couldn't sunder Ralin's scroll because your crossbow is a piercing, ranged weapon. Well, to be specific the rules state: (Page 158, emphasis mine): You can use a melle attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon to strike a WEAPON or SHIELD that your opponent is holding. While further down on the same page it discusses Sundering a Carried or Worn Object. There it does not state what types of weapons can, or must, be used, but it does tell how to define the AC for said object. AC = 10 + Size modifier + Dex Modifier of owner. I would have said the Size of the scroll was Diminutive (Similar in size to a bat?) and thus the AC = 10 + 4 Size + 4 Range + 1 Dex = 19. IMHO - Armor and Weapons can only be sundered by slashing or bludgeoning for good reason. However, are you going to tell me that PAPER cannot be destroyed by shoving an arrow through it? Or that if someone is holding a vial, a glass vial, that an arrow traveling at a high speed would NOT go through a vial? Come on. Either way, I have offered something up for y'all to chew on for a bit... If anyone feels like posting the entire section on Sundering a Carried or Worn Object, feel free. I just could not find the links to SRD and was re-typing from book and got lazy. So there... |
| Jindl10-31-03, 11:12 AM | LLMadCow- The sunder section begins by setting a default rule that slashing/bludgen melee weapons must be used. In the section on sundering objects it does not change the default rule. So I think the default rule still applies to items. And yes I do think it would be difficult to sunder a piece of paper with an arrow. You could maybe put a hole through it, but that doesn't mean its destroyed... As for sundering potions, why do they have to be in a glass vial? They could just as easily be in a metal flask. And btw: I would think the ancient medieval thick glass bottles would be pretty resistant to impact damage (ie. the arrow deflects off the angled thick glass vial...) But regardless of logic, the default rule of using a slashing/bludgeoning melee weapon stands for all attempts at sundering (unless you can show me where they say that you can use other types for items held...) The difference between sundering a held weapon/held shield compared to a held item is only that you can't make an opposed attack roll with the item. That's why they assign AC's to the items to replace the opposed attack roll. But they have already established that you must use melee attacks with bludg/slash to attempt to destroy something held in your opponents hand. I see no reason why this would be different between weapons held and items held. Just my opinion. -Jindl |
| Moherajikuyx10-31-03, 11:25 AM | I closed the third poll, the answer had a 90% majority :D The fourth is harder. It looks that we refuse "any spell" to be bought, but if we say "just buffs+permanency" it becomes hard to judge. There's a majority of exactly 50% +1 towards yes. I'd prefer if it shifted more heavily. I'll count again next week. |
| LLMadCow10-31-03, 11:26 AM | PHB - Pages 165 & 166. Smashing an object. Here is says you must use Bludgeoning or Slashing weapon, but further in the section it mentions that objects take half damage from ranged weapons. Further down it states that some objects will be un-affected, such as a door riddled with arrows, and others may be very vulnerable, such as a fire to a curtain. I say let the arrow do half damage to a vial (Hardness 1, HP 1) and run with it. Scroll - 0 Hardness, 2 HP. |
| Irlina10-31-03, 11:27 AM | I think you can destroy items with ranged attacks. Rules are on p.165, phb. However, they only get half damage from ranged attacks (a crossbow is certainly no siege engine). There are also rules for destroying something with spells. The AC for scrolls is 9 only (dmg, p. 238), only 1hp and no hardness. Other magical items can also be found in the dmg in the paragraph. Since scrolls have no enhancement bonus I should be able to destroy them. But thank you Jindl you made be think again whether it's possible. I'm sure it's good to now for all the mage-hating-archers around ;) |
| WolfWings10-31-03, 11:33 AM | I will admit to one thing... Ralin is quite cheesy, when his rolls work. =^.^= When they don't, he's worthless. More an stereotypical archmage (Not the PrC) than a Bard, really. That will only get more pronounced in a few levels, when the second phase of his build will come into effect and his physical stats will come into play. His entire early build as a Bard is meant to 'Get Lucky' and bum-rush up to 6th level on luck as much as anything else. After that, his HP will start to climb monumentally fast, and DwD will rear it's head eventually. =^.^= Indeed, once he starts building high-gear magical supplies, things will get very interesting. :-) Also, a quick question... if you have a weapon or armor of some description, and it gets sundered, can you get the non-magical portion repaired for free, if for some reason you want to? I.E. If I have a +1 Mithril Buckler, and it gets sundered, can the 'free repair' get me my Mithril Buckler back, if I choose to for some reason? For that matter, does the 'free repair' work at all for anything custom-crafted by the player, even if it's a perfectly non-magical weapon like a Adamantine greatsword, instead of a normal greatsword? Or does it even kick in if you 'craft' a normal greatsword? =^.^= |
| Moherajikuyx10-31-03, 11:39 AM | As we're playing now, the whole thing gets repaired, you can't chose to disenchant it. |
| fluiddragon10-31-03, 11:46 AM | Originally posted by LLMadCow Quote by Jindl If anyone feels like posting the entire section on Sundering a Carried or Worn Object, feel free. I just could not find the links to SRD and was re-typing from book and got lazy. So there... here is a site I am working on (I didn't do the srd's jsut starting an acrhive) http://3.5srd.com -fd |
| barrel_master10-31-03, 11:48 AM | Just for future reference... is the 9ac for a scroll enough? I mean to hit a guy you need to beat an ac of, at least, 10... and I'd imagine that it would be much harder to hit a scroll (when a guy is holding it) then it is to hit the guy. Would adding the ac's make up for this then? 10+9=19 'Sundering a Carried or Worn Object: You don’t use an opposed attack roll to damage a carried or worn object. Instead, just make an attack roll against the object’s AC. A carried or worn object’s AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier + the Dexterity modifier of the carrying or wearing character. Attacking a carried or worn object provokes an attack of opportunity just as attacking a held object does. To attempt to snatch away an item worn by a defender rather than damage it, see Disarm. You can’t sunder armor worn by another character.' - SRD combat II section cat >> Hummm... true, the scroll would be gone but quite frankly, I didn't think he'd make the roll that quickly... my mistake I guess. |
| KerlanRayne10-31-03, 12:33 PM | Originally posted by Galamdring I have just checked... My opponent doesn't have 13 int, so how can he have combat expertise and improved trip. Oops, looks like we all missed that. Well, rather than scrap the character, how about I move my ability adjustment for level from STR to INT making it 13. Is That OK with everyone? KerlanRayne |
| Caterane10-31-03, 12:53 PM | No, scrap it! Keep it! Screep it! Darn, it`s Halloween and I`m too confused with all these undead running loose. Guess I`ll go down now and turn a few skeleton (- chicks :D ) |
| SnarkHunter10-31-03, 01:22 PM | Dum de dum, all tactics sent, recieved Bruno's still waiting for the Elders...wonder what costume I'll wear.... |
| Moherajikuyx10-31-03, 02:47 PM | Originally posted by KerlanRayne Oops, looks like we all missed that. Well, rather than scrap the character, how about I move my ability adjustment for level from STR to INT making it 13. Is That OK with everyone? KerlanRayne Sounds good. |
| barrel_master10-31-03, 03:23 PM | Gage vs. Gorn is up... http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1720373#post1720373 If you don't like this one either tell me. |
| Jindl10-31-03, 04:28 PM | Rito Maya vs Ajax (undefeated) is posted. In this fight Rito does something new, he flies !! I hope everyone enjoys it. -Jindl |
| Jindl10-31-03, 04:41 PM | Originally posted by barrel_master Gage vs. Gorn is up... http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1720373#post1720373 If you don't like this one either tell me. I liked it fine, but there is a minor error. When the first shocking grasp is delivered on a natural 20, it does threaten a crit. So that grasp could have done 2d6 more damage... But that doesn't change the outcome any. Remember, spells that require attack rolls can crit 20/x2. Otherwise, good work! -Jindl |
| Moherajikuyx10-31-03, 05:04 PM | The fight makes me raise a question... Shall a flying character roll move silently checks? I intended to make Rito move from pillar to pillar, to hide better, but I could have been clearer. Nice fight, and gory bloody pulpy juicy end :b:! |
| Tellish_of_Ket10-31-03, 05:21 PM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx The fight makes me raise a question... Shall a flying character roll move silently checks? I intended to make Rito move from pillar to pillar, to hide better, but I could have been clearer. Nice fight, and gory bloody pulpy juicy end :b:! Yes, flying characters still need to make move silent checks. If air elementals do, then so do pc's. Pyre Ashwood VS Iron the Panza is posted. I hope i didn't mess up too badly. I saw i made a grievous error in my calculations in the last round of combat and fixed it up. So for those who may have read ending one, i now present to you ending two. Tellish |
| fluiddragon10-31-03, 09:53 PM | Originally posted by barrel_master Gage vs. Gorn is up... http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1720373#post1720373 If you don't like this one either tell me. Good job running the fight. I think you stuck to my tactics pretty good. I would have liked to use a healing potion, but it doesn't look like I had time. Good match, and a close call. Damn those archers. I forgot to by a scroll of protection from arrows again! All I seem to fight are archers! Anyway not that it would have changed things in round 4 or 5 the hawk rolled a 20 to hit this is a threat for a critical. I'm not sure what you were you were using for the hawks attack modifier (+6 with Shocking grasp vs metal armor +9). I may have missed it but it didn't look like you used these numbers. (Or I am over tired and missed it.) Either way it wouldn't have changed the outcome. The dice gods favored me. -fd |
| Magagumo10-31-03, 11:06 PM | I agree with you, jindl, ranged sundering of items is wacky, but I think the half-damage rule is a fair one (perhaps add +4 soft cover bonus? It would make sense, since they could be leaning over potion). Thsly, only very accurate archers, with good damage output, are going to smash stuff up, and they probably won't hit a character with a decent dex mod's item. I say change Int mod as necessary. Finally, I'm gonna try and run Kobold vs. Harvester this evening. LL, I will get my tactics to you tonight as well Heh, checked out those swarms. Seems a misprint in the MM labels the bat swarm as containing dimminutive creatures (which baffled me, because that's insanely tiny bats). Sems the bat swamr should have been labled as containing tiny creatures (like the rat swarm) making them susceptible to half damage from piercing and slashing weapons (bludgeoning doesn't work I'm afraid, the mass of bodies just absorbs the impact). |
| sloisel11-01-03, 12:55 AM | I haven't kept up with the ranged sundering but just in case this is going in a weird direction, if you're attacking anything anyone's wearing or wielding, it's a sunder attack, and sunder attacks can only be done in melee. You can attack and damage inanimate objects at a range, but not when they are worn/wielded, because you can't sunder at a range. Sébastien Loisel |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-01-03, 08:42 AM | Originally posted by sloisel I haven't kept up with the ranged sundering but just in case this is going in a weird direction, if you're attacking anything anyone's wearing or wielding, it's a sunder attack, and sunder attacks can only be done in melee. You can attack and damage inanimate objects at a range, but not when they are worn/wielded, because you can't sunder at a range. Sébastien Loisel Very true. Sundering is something that's done with a melee weapon. Bludgeon and slashing only if i'm correct. Pretty hard for a rapier to sunder a shield IMO. Or an arrow for that fact. Because if that were true, then you could consider all ranged attacks to be almost considered range touch attacks because they'd just go through your shield and armor destroying it in the process. You cannot sunder with ranged, or piercing, or spells. Tellish |
| Jindl11-01-03, 08:47 AM | Sloisel and Tellish are correct. The rules for applying half damage at range to objects are for unattended objects. You cannot sunder at range (its simply too easy for the character to move your target.) In melee you can sunder because your opponent has less time to try to move your target (although some movement is possible , which is why the opposed attack rolls/dex modifier portion of the items AC.) This is also why you can't sunder a worn/wielded object with a piercing weapon. It's too easy to move the object to avoid the tiny point of piercing. That's why bludgeoning/slashing work better (they apply damage over a larger area and thus have a better chance to hitting the item as its possessor tries to move it away.) -Jindl |
| MadCowTemplate11-01-03, 09:36 AM | Just for future reference... is the 9ac for a scroll enough? I mean to hit a guy you need to beat an ac of, at least, 10... and I'd imagine that it would be much harder to hit a scroll (when a guy is holding it) then it is to hit the guy. Would adding the ac's make up for this then? 10+9=19 I believe the AC 9 is intended to refer to a scroll laying around unheld. I think it's important to note the dmg says "A scroll has AC 9" not AC +9. How exactly, do we think, they came to AC 9? Looking at this makes me wonder, what does the base 10 for AC represent? Also, I noticed the dmg says scrolls have a break DC 8. I must confess, I'm not quite sure what that means, or if it relates to sundery. |
| Moherajikuyx11-01-03, 09:44 AM | I think AC 9 comes from 10 -5 (dex 0) +4 (diminutive). In case of attended objects it would thus become 14+dex mod. Break DCs are for strength checks. |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-01-03, 10:16 AM | Striking an unattended objects applies to ranged weapons only. It's auto-hit for melee weapons. Taking a full round action also gives you +5 to strike that object. I've had a number of arguments with DM's about this. And it's right there in black and white. In one mod we had to use an arrow to put out the flame of a candle (Living Greyhawk), and also in some archery contests vs. other pc's. You'd be surprised at how few ppl actually know that one. Tellish |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-01-03, 10:21 AM | Originally posted by MadCowTemplate IAlso, I noticed the dmg says scrolls have a break DC 8. I must confess, I'm not quite sure what that means, or if it relates to sundery. Basically you can try to tear the scroll outright by making a strength check DC 8, (1d20+str modifier), or just tear it with dmg, 1d3+str mod according to it's hardness/hit points. In some cases you DEFINATELY want the break DC. Take a stuck door for example at DC 25 to open. You get an assiter on that, and take 20. Or if you got +5 str bonus, just take 20. If you want to pound the door, you'd have to go through Hardness 10, and 60 hp. You could be there a long time. Take the 20 and just break it. Tellish |
| barrel_master11-01-03, 10:33 AM | So is this what we're saying? 1. You can not sunder unless it's with a slash or bludgoning weapon. 2. AC for worn objects is AC=(10+size mod.+dex modx) |
| barrel_master11-01-03, 10:46 AM | would it be considered poor taste if I built a char with improved trip and a spiked chain except with a different class and race? |
| Jindl11-01-03, 10:47 AM | Barrel_master: 1. Slashing or bludgeoning melee weapon. 2. AC is correct for all worn items except armor. Note: You cannot sunder armor. As for another spiked chain tripper, I don't see a problem with it. Just make sure he's different enough from Alathar Vierce (ie. don't name him Balathar Kierce or something :) ) |
| Magagumo11-01-03, 10:52 AM | Ya armor sundering is vicious ;) And thank you for resolution of ranged sundering... never know, it might come up in one of my games. ^_^ |
| fluiddragon11-01-03, 11:16 AM | Xaver is also a spiked chain dude. But going the Wizard/Fighter route. He's human. |
| MotherBast11-01-03, 11:25 AM | OK, I have finnished both the Paul vs. Cobbler fight, and the Rizzen Pharn vs. Allister Swiftfoot fight. Imizael never sent me any tactics, but I expected as much since he has quit. Rather than just hand the fight to Allister I actually ran the fight. I hate to spoil the ending, but the outcome would have been the same if I had just handed the fight to him, except he had to use two scrolls, a small price to pay for victory. The Paul vs. Cobbler fight was much more exciting, and both fighters had very aggressive tactics. No Hideing or sneaking in this one, just two mounted combatents traiding blows in a very unorthadox manner. It was fun to run, and when I'm done writing it, I'm sure it will be one of the most fun to read fights ever to happen in the level 2 bracket. And despite the supper aggressive tactics of both fighters, it still went 10 rounds. After this fight though, Lora the Cobbler should probably be renamed Lora the Pyro.... but I wont tell you why or who wins, you'll have to wait and read it. I don't want to spoil anything about this increadible fight. Oh, and MO, great job on the Brackin Lucient fight. I'm one step closer to a contest with Rito. I loved his special guest comentating. One issue though. Near the end of the fight, he readied an action to attack when I became visable. No problem with that at all, but his initative should have then been changed to the initative count right after mine, as that is when he took his action. On the next round he took his turn before mine, and tried to escape. His turn should have been after mine due to the readied action, and he never should have gotten the chance to escape. It had absolutly no impact on the fight whatsoever, but just for future refrence, readied actions reset your init to the count you take the action on for all future turns. Ill have both of the fights posted some time tonight, but I gotta run to a friends house for a while, so it may be a few hours. |
| Moherajikuyx11-01-03, 11:42 AM | Uhm, uhm. I even thought about that, having him acted during your turn I gave him a faster initiative. Who's right? PS- Rito and Brackin are still at the same distance :D |
| MotherBast11-01-03, 03:32 PM | He would go after me. Any time you delay your action, your new Init is always directly after the Init count of the person who your readyed action is in response to, and from then on you go directly after them. |
| fluiddragon11-01-03, 04:40 PM | Question on weapon finesse. If you have this feat would you be able to add your dex modifier on touch attacks with spells, say shocking grasp for instance? |
| Moherajikuyx11-01-03, 05:01 PM | Yeah, that's an unarmed strike considered armed, like the monk's. |
| MotherBast11-01-03, 06:40 PM | Ok, done posting both of the fights. Really exciting stuff. I borrowed a few ideas on writing it from recent trends in the fights threads, and borrowd the Arena's undefeated champion for comentary..... It should be some fun, enjoy. |
| WolfWings11-01-03, 06:42 PM | Well, at least Ralin won... Will have to specifically note, even more emphatically next week, to not save bolts. For like the first three rounds, I didn't fire any shots while Gage was buffing the bird, which was what I expected him to do so I wanted to take the first three rounds to pepper him with bolts in case they hit. =^.^= Not a big deal, since for 2 of those I believe he had full cover to me, but the first round I won initiative so should have had a clear (albeit +3 from range I think?, but still nice) shot. This week seems to be the Week of Misunderstood Tactics. =^.6= |
| Jindl11-01-03, 08:46 PM | Cool fights, MotherBast. One VERY, VERY important correction however... Jindl has never faced Alathar Vierce in the arena (indeed the druid would have destroyed him if they had met before.) That 4-2 record is due to 2 losses to Skymoon. In fact, I've never had any of my characters face any of Alathar Vierce's characters. Otherwise, cool fight! -Jindl PS: It's good the see that Joe the new marketing director is having some success, for now :devil:... |
| barrel_master11-01-03, 09:04 PM | One critisizm motherblast... I used a 'shield of faith potion' and you forgot to mention that... otherwise it was a good fight. (Dam sucky rolls) |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-01-03, 09:16 PM | Originally posted by MotherBast He would go after me. Any time you delay your action, your new Init is always directly after the Init count of the person who your readyed action is in response to, and from then on you go directly after them. Don't know if this has been answered yet as i haven't finished reading unread posts, but several have continued since it's first inquiry so i will answer it now. NO! He DOES get to act before you. There is a difference between DELAY action and READY action. You can only delay up to 10 pts on the initiative scale, after which you MUST act or forfiet you action for that turn. If that delay happens to put you after the person, then it does. If it's before, than it's before. But generally, delaying until a certain action/whatever has occured puts you AFTER on the initiative wheel. READY puts you just before the persons initiative of the person/whatever that triggered the action. Basically you are saying, i'm gonna interrupt his action to perform mine under specific circumstances. Hope this helps, and if it's been answered already, then you got two now. Tellish |
| Prexx11-01-03, 09:56 PM | Not trying to be a sore loser or anything. But just a quick note on the Pyre Ashwood vs Iron the Panza (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1721086#post1721086) fight. First off, I would like to congratulate Panza on his excellent tactics. When I saw that you had no way of seeing invisible opponents, I thought I had the fight in the bag. But you definately made it very difficult for me to capitalize on my advantage. Anyways, in my tactics, it states that my character would "lead off with scorching ray, then back up" after successfully buffing up. On round 7, after my character has successfully buffed up and retreated from the enemy (all is going according to tactics thus far), Pyre leads off his attack with a magic missile instead of scorching ray. Had scorching ray been fired instead of magic missile, in accordance to my tactics I believe the outcome of that match would have been very different. At the time Panza only had 17 hp, a scorching ray had a very good chance of dropping him, and even if it didn't, the second scorching ray that I fired would almost certainly have ended the fight. In any case, I hope that this warrants some consideration. |
| barrel_master11-01-03, 10:11 PM | Do we have any 2 weapon fighters in the arena? |
| Jindl11-01-03, 10:14 PM | Prexx, I'm sure Tellish had a good reason for using magic missle... right, Tellish ?? Um, Tellish?? BTW: My email has been weird, are any mods missing tactics from me? I've sent them all, I just wanted confirmation that you guys got them... -Jindl |
| fluiddragon11-01-03, 10:21 PM | I just finished Hurtz vs Cur-somethingorother :D Don't want to spoil the surprize. It took 18 very exciting rounds. I'll post in the morning took 2.5 hours to run other wize if it had been shorter it post now. I don't want to post just the round by round. -fd |
| Magagumo11-01-03, 10:31 PM | *pant, pant* Harvester vs. Buttmunch is up. I started this thing yesterday, I do belive the fight ahs taken me almost 7 hours to run, as it went for nearly 40 straight rounds of continuous fighting!!! *Collapses* I believe I deserve the award for most pain suffered by a Mod ;) By the end, the positions might not add up, but they all checked out on my map ;) Hey, Moh, i appreciate the offer to allow Weapon FInesse to add to grapple rolls, but it simply does not work that way- Strength only I'm afraid. If you don't belive me, check out air elementals, they all sport weapon finesse and a good dex, but grapple rolls are based on str+BA+size only (+1 BA -4 size=-3). Note on Tomar fight, if he has Improved Trip, he doesn't lose his weapon for failing his trip attempt... just noting. |
| SnarkHunter11-01-03, 10:48 PM | jindle I have definitly not recieved your tactics, please PM them to me! Want to run fight so baaaaaaad! :devil: :D :D :angel: and I'm spent... |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-01-03, 11:04 PM | Ok, i see i have several posts to reply to so i'll do them one at a time. @ Mag. Nope, improved trip doesn't mean you cannot be tripped if you fail. All Improved Trip does is not provoke when starting a trip unarmed, and getting a free shot when you succeed. If you fail to trip, even with improved trip, you still get a chance of being tripped yourself. That's why it's better to trip with a weapn (which never provokes incidently, regardless of wether you have imp. trip or not) because if you fail, and you are tripped in return, you simply can drop the weapon. If you did your trip unarmed, and are subsequently tripped, you're flat on your butt. @prexx CUT/PASTE: Round 5) Scout for Panza, once I find him attempt to put at least 150 feet of distance between us Subsequent Rounds) Once I am a good distance away, lead off with a scorching ray Scorching ray is a short range spell. 25+5ft/2lvls. So you had no choice but to wait until he got close. I looked your sheet over and saw you had a chance to really capitalize and win with the mm spell. What really did you in was the Nat 20! and confirmation. I thought to myself, the only way Panza can win at this point in the match is a confirmed crititcal. Wow, i stared at the screen for a few seconds when i saw the 20 come up, and then thought, ok, he still needs a decent roll to confirm it, and confirmed it right on the nose he did. If it weren't for that, you would have won, no doubt about it. But congrats to both ppl on decent tactics. I have to admit, i messed up MO's more than once and had to back track once or twice as i re-read what he wanted to do next. I hope you see why the mm was used and not the scorching at that time. I could have just blindingly cast the scorch and have it fall way short because that's what the tactics say, but then i'd get in siht for doing something so stupid when a wiz would know the range of his spells. I hope you are satisfied with that answer. Tellish |
| Magagumo11-01-03, 11:22 PM | Been watching the use of alchemist fire lately... don't forget that it takes a full-round action to prepare them, and that can't be done ahead of time ;). So pull them, start readying, next round you can finish readying and throw it. Not fast, but that's because balance was needed for their damage output. Ahh.. Tellish, that's very interesting. Of course, this means that Alathar could have been tripped back everytime he failed (though I'm not too sure how often that happened ;). Thanks for that info, you have enlightened several of us. Ya, no reruns or anything, but Lora simply can't throw them that fast... Just a heads-up |
| LLMadCow11-02-03, 12:47 AM | Fight has been ran and will be posted by Monday Evening. |
| MotherBast11-02-03, 01:03 AM | Sorry, Jindl, somehow I got it in my head you had had a figtht with Al..... totaly my bad.... I got the fight you had with Moon Moon confused with Al. I would go back and change it but it hardly matters now.... I can only say sorry again. As for the Alch. Fire, I read when you said that before, and I looked up both Splash weapons and the description under Alch. Fire and could find nowhere where it said it takes a full round to ready them, so I allowed them to be used as a standerd action, and move action to draw, as I found nothing to dispute there use in this way. If I missed something, point me out a page number to reference and I'll look it up, but untill I see in print where the full round is stated, I'll continue to run them as standard actions. |
| SnarkHunter11-02-03, 01:26 AM | Aye don't worry that was the wrong place to work (silly Wizards, and their placing of vital information, :rolleyes: ). In the PG, table 8-2 pg 141 Actions in Combat. It is a fullround action to ready a thrown Splash Weapon. I assume this in the SRD too but I can't be bothered to check. Rush rush you know. Still no jindle tactics. Sob weap moan. Tomorrow I must now choose between fight and homework...well there isn't much homework anyway... |
| Jindl11-02-03, 01:29 AM | @ Prexx - see, I told you Tellish would have a good answer (way to go Tellish!) @ Magagumo - EDIT: Snark is correct about the splash weapon. Its in the SRD on the actions in combat table... Also, I don't think Alathar has ever failed a trip attempt... @ MotherBast - no prob. just trash talking (hopefully the druid will meet the trip monster someday...) @ Snark - Hey man, my emails to magagumo and llmadcow went through fine. I think it might be a prob with your account. I've got the elders tactics ready, but I don't know how to PM you (so somebody please either tell me how, or tell me where to look for instructions - I'm only mildly computer savy... and while you're at it, tell me how to change the font to a red color...) -Jindl |
| SnarkHunter11-02-03, 01:39 AM | {color=red} Text here! {/color} You can use a lot of other colors for red of course. All you have to do is replace {}'s with []'s. For the e-mail thing, my server is wonk y I will admit but I've as well recieved tactics from other players.... So to Private message; Under a persons post there should be a a button (http://boards1.wizards.com/private.php?s=&action=newmessage&userid=186622) labeled PM that lets you send a message to a particular user. Me in this case! Although I notice that you don't have this button under your name, so you may have that option disabled. Just a theory anyway. Edit: now you do! Failing that you can always reroute the e-mail through some neutral third party. Don't know if I'll run the fight now, but prolly early in the morning. |
| Jindl11-02-03, 02:01 AM | Thanks for the help. Tactics for the Elder sent via PM. -Jindl |
| MadCowTemplate11-02-03, 02:33 AM | :eek: I had no idea it took a full round action to "prepare to throw a splash weapon." I'd love to know what this preperation entails... I honestly don't know what to do with this character now. I like it, and the crowd loved the fire! But if it takes me two whole rounds to rummage and prep, I might as well be slinging. Is there a vile/flask bandalier available?:D @Motherbast: Regarding AC, it's not you, it's me. When I rebooted Cora to Lora, one the things I altered was raising her dex mod, and I forgot to note max dex when I made adjustments. Way to notice stuff! :behold: I'm liking the on-going stories people are puting in with their characters, but if we all do this, I fear it may become too ... something...I'm not sure what I'm looking for their, but has anyone considered making a seperate thread for Gladiator Diaries? Each character having a single post to be updated, similer to their build and the votes. Just a thought. |
| Jindl11-02-03, 02:37 AM | Wow. The Havester is really tough to kill. Who would have thought he could convert spells to cure light wounds? Mo - we have to give Magagumo the longest fight award (especially since he didn't skip any rounds...) Good fight. -Jindl PS: Why is it that the druids seem to have trouble with the heavy armored charging builds (Jindl with Moon-moon, Buttmunch with the Harvester...) They should be easy pickins, what with their low touch ac's for produce flame, and their low reflex saves for flaming sphere and call lightning. Yet they continue to defeat us. Next time Buttmunch, I say go for the horse. Then go for the rider... EDIT: Magagumo and LLMadCow, please tell me if you got tactics for Jindl and Turnip? My email says that Magagumo's message was not delivered. Do I need to PM you the tactics? |
| WolfWings11-02-03, 02:59 AM | Originally posted by barrel_master Do we have any 2 weapon fighters in the arena? Not yet that I know of, actually. But right now, there's no way to afford a 2-weapon fighter, because the fights are always at range at first. If you focus on melee only to get good 2-weapon fighting abilities, unless you blow a feat for Weapon Finesse, you'll effectively throw out the first 2, 3, or more rounds while you try to close to melee the opponent. |
| KerlanRayne11-02-03, 03:21 AM | Originally posted by WolfWings Originally posted by barrel_master Do we have any 2 weapon fighters in the arena? Not yet that I know of, actually. But right now, there's no way to afford a 2-weapon fighter, because the fights are always at range at first. If you focus on melee only to get good 2-weapon fighting abilities, unless you blow a feat for Weapon Finesse, you'll effectively throw out the first 2, 3, or more rounds while you try to close to melee the opponent. Actually we do. Tomar Vilir uses a Gnome Hooked Hammer which is a double weapon. He trips with it and is 4th level right now so not doing to bad. KerlanRayne |
| KerlanRayne11-02-03, 03:41 AM | Originally posted by fluiddragon Question on weapon finesse. If you have this feat would you be able to add your dex modifier on touch attacks with spells, say shocking grasp for instance? Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Yeah, that's an unarmed strike considered armed, like the monk's. Actually I don't think it's considered an unarmed strike. You could use an unarmed strike to deliver the spell but it wouldn't be a touch attack. I would use the notmal melee roll and do unarmed damage as well as the spells damage, then you could use Finesse. With just the touch attack you wouldn't get to use Finesse. KerlanRayne |
| Moherajikuyx11-02-03, 05:02 AM | Originally posted by Magagumo Hey, Moh, i appreciate the offer to allow Weapon FInesse to add to grapple rolls, but it simply does not work that way- Strength only I'm afraid. If you don't belive me, check out air elementals, they all sport weapon finesse and a good dex, but grapple rolls are based on str+BA+size only (+1 BA -4 size=-3). Whoa now that's a hidden rule! Touch spells: from the SRD, combat I (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/CombatI.rtf): “Armed” Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character’s or creature’s unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed. |
| Prexx11-02-03, 06:22 AM | @Tellish - Ahhh, I wasn't paying attention to relative ranges/coordinates on the map. Thank you for pointing that out, it makes much more sense now, and you made the right call. That certainly was one hell of a fight. BTW, great job on moderating it Tellish, there were a lot of weird rules/spells being used there. Hopefully I don't come accross someone as crafty/lucky as Panza in my next fight. |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-02-03, 06:49 AM | Originally posted by WolfWings Not yet that I know of, actually. But right now, there's no way to afford a 2-weapon fighter, because the fights are always at range at first. If you focus on melee only to get good 2-weapon fighting abilities, unless you blow a feat for Weapon Finesse, you'll effectively throw out the first 2, 3, or more rounds while you try to close to melee the opponent. I meant to answer this awhile ago, but yes. Kelek (my rogue/wiz) is. Also, i had written i very beautiful critique of Buttmunch vs Harvester, there was a lot of wholesome stuff in it, but i must have gotten disconnected in the process and when i hit submit reply, i got the error screen instead. So, not as eloquent, but here goes. 1. Buttmunch stated that if Harvester moved to be beside him, he would double move away. Instead he 'ran' and provoked. At first i thought it was because the lance had reach, but since he attacked, then he's at full length away from the lance. 2. Range attacks that miss by the difference of the cover and the target hit the cover instead unless the dodge bonus of the coverer exceeds the cover. Which meant 3 of those missed produced flames would have hit Wraith resulting in further checks. 3. Wanted to congradulate you on proper use of Spurr mount. I see so many ppl use it and forget the mounts take dmg because of this. Although you missed tallying up the dmg once (i think) it didn't affect anything. Very good job with that btw. 4. I don't understand rds 36-37-38. Buttmunch never attacked and provoked once even. Now, as we can all see, he would only do 1 pt of dmg, so nothing critical but just curious if it was for flavor or if there was a game mechanic reason for it. 5. K, I see this a lot and i need to bring it up. Ppl put the rider in a specific squre on a mount that occupies 4 squares. The rider is in fact in the middle and is considered to be in ALL squares (otherwise he'd never have reach with the lance). That being said, Harvester provoked from Red Baron each time he cast a spell in melee that he was beside him. 6. I agree on giving you the award for the longest fight run. That was definately a worthy combat. Man, all i can say is congrats on a very well run fight Mag....and i thought i had it bad with a 3 and 4 hr fight. Kudos on keeping track of all the minute details as possible, i know it can be tough. None of the above pts are critical, just trying to put a critical touch on a very good fight. Also on that note, i think we should critique each others fight more often. I mean, this week is definately known as the "Week of ERRORS", and i know i made my share, but if we did critique more often i think it would improve all our skills as moderators. Tellish ps. again, thx Mag for a very entertaining fight to read, i was on the edge of my seat all the way. |
| Alterlat11-02-03, 07:00 AM | Hi there I've just come across the thread and was interested in joining the battling, so I put together a build and posted it in the Gladiators thread. Funnily enough, it was a two-weapon style build - then I came back here and saw you were discussing the lack of them. Anyway, this looks to be an interesting contest, and I'm glad I found it. |
| fluiddragon11-02-03, 08:21 AM | Hurtz vs Cur posted. good battle the crowd and "Sparkles" are happy. |
| Caterane11-02-03, 08:36 AM | Cat is back. Man, what an adventurous (Halloween) weekend!! Muahahahahaha but that fight!!! Just threw out a (vampire) chick because I fell in love with Magagumo (regretted it shortly thereafter :D ). No, just kidding. But such fights are not very healthy for my poor heart. Despite all feelings of joy there`s one thing that spoils my mirth: I just saw that Alathar hasn`t updated his character yet despite his promise to do so at thursday. This is a bit anoying because I would`ve prefered to run the Moon-Alathar fight on friday. Now it seems that I have to run it during my packed week. On the other hand I have written a good portion of the surrounding story and on top of that spent hours thinking about a worthy story so I definetaly don`t want this to be for nothing. My suggestion is that we extend the fight into the next week thus both combatants skip a fight. Any ideas? |
| fluiddragon11-02-03, 09:35 AM | It seems like a few people here are having problems with email. If you need a free account let me know. I resell hosting space and have my own domain, so no sales pitches or anything. If you need it just send me an email of what you want for a user name and password. it will be username at fluiddragon.com. I have web access and pop3 with spam assasin. scott (at) fluiddragon.com -fd |
| MotherBast11-02-03, 10:44 AM | Dang, that was some very poorly place Key information. My bad on the Alch. Fire deal. I guess Paul would have had like 2 extra chances to roll a 4 or 5 then haha..... just play'n of course. I'll mental note the splash weapon thing, for my own game to, we always used them as standard actions. Despite the Glaring error with the fire, this was still my favorit fight to run so far. As for fights that have happened since, in the Cur vs. Hurtz fight, when Cur escaped Hurtz's grapple and then cast a spell, how did he escape the grapple without using his action? The way it reads it sounds like he opposed grapple check to escape, which whould be his attack for the round, and he then could not have cast his spell. No big deal as he lost the fight anyway, but I was just wondering if he used a differen't tactic for escape, as it might be relivent to my grappling monk. The Harvester vs. Buttmunch fight was really good. I have a healthy respect for the Harvester, but I do have to wonder if all those fireballs that hit the mount when it was acting as cover might not have had an impact by the end of the fight, perhaps causing Harvester to need to heal it, and preventing him from healing himself that last time. It was probably not a big enough impact to really alter the fight that much though I dont think. It was well fought on both sides. Now for a question. Did we ever decide if were going to be allowing characters to start at level 3? If we are, I finaly have an idea for a fighter I dont think has been done yet. A naked Barb/Sorc who uses Truestrike to try and end fights with one powerful raging blow. If we allow level 3 guys, im gona make him one of those Duerager... Invisibility and Enlarge for free every fight = getting really close and hitting really hard. The -4 cha is tough, but its only gotta be 11 for this build anyway, or maybe 12 for a first level bonus spell. If he gets high enough level, I could then take him into DD. I don't think this build has been used yet, but I really don't see it viable unless were allowing level 3's to enter. If we are, and were also using the LA adjustment characters count as 2 gladiators, I have already offered to run 3 fights a week, so I just happen to have 2 spots open in my stable. Maby 3 if Candy looses this week. So are we going to allow 3rd level character to enter? |
| fluiddragon11-02-03, 10:45 AM | From the SRD Touch Spells and Holding the Charge: In most cases, if you don’t discharge a touch spell on the round you cast it, you can hold the charge (postpone the discharge of the spell) indefinitely. You can make touch attacks round after round. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. Since this specificaly states casting another spell, can you use a spell completion device or spell trigger without discharging the touch spell? Since you are not actually casting the spell and your feats (augment summoning, spell focus etc) don't work on the spell and the DC is set by the item you are not really casting the spell. I don't have the books just the SRD at this point so I'm not totaly sure, but according to the SRD you can cast chill touch, then use a scroll or wand to cast Shield without losing the charge. I just want to make sure I am reading it correctly. -FD |
| barrel_master11-02-03, 10:48 AM | Originally posted by Alterlat Hi there I've just come across the thread and was interested in joining the battling, so I put together a build and posted it in the Gladiators thread. Funnily enough, it was a two-weapon style build - then I came back here and saw you were discussing the lack of them. Anyway, this looks to be an interesting contest, and I'm glad I found it. Ha ha, dam you! I was just about to post one too, that's why I asked! :) |
| fluiddragon11-02-03, 10:51 AM | Originally posted by MotherBast As for fights that have happened since, in the Cur vs. Hurtz fight, when Cur escaped Hurtz's grapple and then cast a spell, how did he escape the grapple without using his action? The way it reads it sounds like he opposed grapple check to escape, which whould be his attack for the round, and he then could not have cast his spell. No big deal as he lost the fight anyway, but I was just wondering if he used a differen't tactic for escape, as it might be relivent to my grappling monk. I think I goofed up. I used a MEA to excape the grapple and then a standard to cast the spell. My bad. Least Hurtz mad ethe save so the point is moot. The fight took longer than I expected so I guess I just got sloppy. from the srd Escape from Grapple: You can escape a grapple by winning an opposed grapple check in place of making an attack. You can make an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check if you so desire, but this requires a standard action. If more than one opponent is grappling you, your grapple check result has to beat all their individual check results to escape. (Opponents don’t have to try to hold you if they don’t want to.) If you escape, you finish the action by moving into any space adjacent to your opponent(s). I think I got confused with the wording. It mentioned an escape artist check inplace of the grapple as a standard action so I just assumed that it was a MEA even though it mentions it in place of an attack. I think they could have worded it better. -fd Also I was thinking if he just moved 30' he would simply provoke another charge which was more likely to hit than a standard attack. Cur was pertty much done at this point. He was having a hard time beating the grapple rolls and had no light weapons to strike back with. Its a good tactical lesson, Archer Spell Casters stink at grappling. He didn't have many options. I first thought Cur would walk all over Hurtz. High AC vs a Defensive fighter isn't a good combination but Hurtz tactics were well thought out. |
| Moherajikuyx11-02-03, 11:08 AM | Fluid - the fight was well written and exciting indeed. Sadly I see some issues. Twice did Hurtz grapple the fighter mage, and not a single time did he provoke the AoO- Hurtz doesn't have imp. grapple :confused: Also, you completely disregarded the "prepare to cast grease on held weapon upon detection" part of the tactics that was... Well... The whole point of getting in melee with a mage against a fighter? :mad: Finally, to escape a grapple it's possible to use dex instead of grapple (escape artist isn't TRAINED ONLY). Curungrur would have escaped in rounds 9 and 10. :bored: Oh well, two on three won, the third lost to errors. |
| Magagumo11-02-03, 11:09 AM | I'll keep the rider being considered in all 4 squares in mnd :). As for hitting the mount, where does it specifcally say that things that miss due to cover might hit the cover instead? I use this rule in my game, but certain players tell me its a variant... Also, it's then entirely possible for THe Harvester to have rolled his Ride Check (+9) a second time, to raise Wraith's AC to negate the hit... who knows? Since The Harvester was 5' stepping away from the bat, he was out of attack range and thus could use scrolls unimpeded (like I said, last few rounds I stopped tracking locations on round listing). As for the last couple of rounds, the AoO were from.. ahh drat, I see now, hehe, sorry.. forgot about withdraw ;) Of course, at that point, Buttmunch was down to three sling bullets, e ch doing a max of 2 damage if they each critted, leaving the Harvester at 7. Rather than have them dance around the pillar for 5 rounds, I decided it was best to set up a dire charge for the end of the match (and the die evn rolled a 19 for me ^_^). I guess you could call it skipping, I call it style :-P Yea, splash weapons have gotten em a few times before, it's to avoid a human fighter with Quick Draw, 2-Weapon Fighting, and perhaps even Rapid Shot from dominating (sure, you have a -4 to your 3 attacks, but each one has an enormous potential to slay that 1st level wizard in one round ;)). Thusly, only one per round. Since using a wand isn't casting a spell to my knowledge (Standard action w/AoO), you probably could hold the charge and use the wand (I believe it basically functions as a weapon in tht regard, simpkly one with charges and a high cost ;)). Not sure about a wand that creates charges though.. that might not work... Oh yes, and final note on the running first round... hehe.. I noticed around Round 17 that you have stated you wanted to Double-Move rather than Run... At that point, since he didn't hit, I figured it was a null point ^_~ Jindl I got your tactis this morning, and I am going to try and run that fight vs. Ebelin... may it be far shorter ;) |
| LLMadCow11-02-03, 12:02 PM | @Jindl - I have received tactics for Turnip. @Jindl & Magagumo - I hope to be running the Turnip the Test Bard vs. Zorander Brogaden fight tonight, to be posted sometime Monday. @Barrel & Fluiddragon - I ran the Octavian Cesar vs. Xaver fight yesterday, and I plan to post it sometime tomorrow. @ALL - Speaking for myself, I am an experienced GM (9+ years), but I am still gaining my familiarity with the d20 system, as I have never had much of a chance to play or run the system. I know that we are all at varying degrees of GMing experience and many are still learning the systems ins and outs. If nothing else, we are all a form of community teaching to improve our knowledge and understanding of the rules. This being said, it is a FREQUENT occurrence, at least once or twice a week, that there are some grievances with how a fight was run do to technical errors. I am proposing a new modification to the fight system and tracking of wins and losses. Proposal: After every fight, the losers have a week to review the fight and post any grievances with the outcome. If there are serious issues with the fight - Critical Abuse of the tactics sent, illegal actions, misused Feats or Spells, etc - the character can be awarded 1 Error Point. Error Points would only be awarded if the problems with the fight that was run COULD HAVE resulted in a different outcome. (I know from past experience that some GMs, myself included, have re-ran and/or extended fights to see what the actual outcome would have been if run, just to ensure fairness, although we are never required to!) After 2 or 3 error points, the character gets to have one loss converted to a win and the character gets to advance 1 level. This would make losing due to errors somewhat more tolerable and still work well with the No Re-Run rule we have in place. Lastly, this would help keep some of the higher ranks filled, since many times a character who has had a bad string of luck just gets retired.... Just my two cents... |
| fluiddragon11-02-03, 01:01 PM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Fluid - the fight was well written and exciting indeed. Sadly I see some issues. Twice did Hurtz grapple the fighter mage, and not a single time did he provoke the AoO- Hurtz doesn't have imp. grapple :confused: Also, you completely disregarded the "prepare to cast grease on held weapon upon detection" part of the tactics that was... Well... The whole point of getting in melee with a mage against a fighter? :mad: Finally, to escape a grapple it's possible to use dex instead of grapple (escape artist isn't TRAINED ONLY). Curungrur would have escaped in rounds 9 and 10. :bored: Oh well, two on three won, the third lost to errors. Hurtz has Improved Unarmed Strike so he doesn't provoke an AoO to start a grapple. On round 7 Hurtz invisible, stumbles alerting Cur to him. Cur makes a good spot check rolls 18 and notices he is invisible. On round 8 Cur uses his action to cast See Invisible from a scroll. You couldn't target Hurtz to cast gease on his weapon, as you couldn't see what he was holding just that you knew he was there. I considered casting grease on the area to make him fall but this was not in the tactics. I also considered readying a Color Spray untill he got into range, but you only wanted to use that if desparate. And you were not at that time. I decided to follow the tactics and cast See Invis. so you could combat him, as he was in charging distance and you only had 1 spell you could cast before he got to you. At that time I though you would mop the floor with him Your AC was 25 and he had a dagger vs your Sythe plus he had only a 1 out of 3 chance to get you vs an image. So I thought See Invis was the best option at the time. I felt this was better than trying a grease and this was your only spell to cast before he was there. I also figured a dagger vs a sythe was a good advantage for you, and since he had Improved Unarmed Attack the dagger was only 1 point better than his fist. I would have greased the weapon while grappling but it had a Somantic component so that was not an option. In 9 and 10 you would have gotten out of the grapple. My mistake. I think he still would have won, as your touch ac was only 17 and he was going to keep grappling you. (His last damage attack was unarmed as it was easier to damage you with an opposed grapple rather than the dagger. It was actually harder for him to hit with a dagger -4 to hit vs AC 25. He just got lucky on a crit with 2 20's rolled, and max damage. I didn't realize escape artist was untrained though so that was my fault. But I don't think it would have changed the match you had no healing magic at all and he had 1 more potion of CLW available plus a hitpoint and Grapple advantage. Also all your buffs were starting to come down. -FD Edit just checked the SRD your right he would have provoked an AoO without the Improved Grapple feat. I guess I was thinking 3.0 where you didn't provoke with Improved unarmed strike. If you both want me to re-run it I'll re-run it from the begining of round 8, fixing the errors. |
| SnarkHunter11-02-03, 01:12 PM | Bruno vs. Elder posted. Now that was surprising fight! |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-02-03, 01:14 PM | My view on the Hurtz fight. Listen checks vs spell casting are DC 0. I probably should have been able to hear him sooner before letting him get nicely buffed. I would have heard him as early as round two (not pin point, but enough to know direction) and moved to behind his cover. Grease on the dagger? I have two daggers. Fluid caught himself onthe escape checks, so i nuff said there. Casting a spell (even spell-triggers) in a grapple, several things need to happen. One is making an opposed grapple check to even draw the scroll/potion. The second (in the scrolls case) is making a concentration check DC 20+lvl. Now the big point that MO claims lost on errors, and that was the lack of AoO from my grapple. Scythe is a two-handed weapon, and spell casting requires one hand free at all times. No AoO would have resulted from my grapple attempts as he had cast in the same round. As i was reading that, i thought Fluid did very well to remember that. But then as i read the messages here, it was an oversight. Thankfully a lucky (and correct) oversight. So, IMO, i do not believe Cur lost on errors, it was actualy closer than it shoud have been because of them. :p But seriously though, Fluid it was well run. The only thing i see really was the greasing of my weapon but i did have a back up dagger. So i don't see this as a critical mistake. But then again, just my opinion. Good job. :) Tellish |
| Magagumo11-02-03, 01:38 PM | Hmm, the error pooint idea sounds very intriguing.. though we would nee a reviiew board of sorts to establish the awarding fo the error point. Perhaps the Mods would vote on it (you wouldn't vote if you were to be awarded the error point)... that way the consensus would rule. I thhink it's a nice idea, needing some development but definetely worth discussing. Hard fought match, Jindl, you ebat me at my own blindness game ;). With any luck, our lower-level fight will be just as exciting. Jindl vs. Ebelin is posted in rough form (I will be creating my initiative/prologue momentarily), I'll mention when it becomes the final version. Tough fight, but very fast... scary stuff. ^_^;; Ok, introduction is up! Also added Jindl's extra 12 hps from Bear's Endurance.. because it was necessary ^_~ |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-02-03, 01:42 PM | Read the Jindl fight. What a powerhouse druid. Now i see why you're anxious to get to Alathar. But better hurry before he gets Whirlwind, otherwise all the summons in the world won't help you. Read the Bruno fight as well. Snark, that is probably the most perfect and accurate fight i've ever seen, and also despite it's shortness it was dang entertaining. After having lost my first match due to the magical beast (much to my own emberassement) it was nice to see that a magical beast put him out of his misery. LOL (no offense to the Elder). Tellish EDIT***** Hurtz has Improved Unarmed Strike so he doesn't provoke an AoO to start a grapple. Actually i don't, i have Weapon Focus: Unarmed, which give me a +1 to my touch attacks to try and grab hold to start a grapple. |
| Jindl11-02-03, 02:23 PM | Yeah the Elder fight went much as I figured... Bad draw on opponents. I would have rather faced Rito or Ajax. Bruno is about the toughest opponent in the arena for the Elder to face. Still, it could have gone either way (if that Listen check had failed to pinpoint...). As for Jindl vs Ebelin, ouch. One minor thing, Jindl doesn't ride Nox (he's too heavy, Light load = 200 lbs and Jindl + gear > 250 lbs.) It doesn't matter for the fight, given how fast the druid can fly in eagle form and the fact that faerie fire is a long range spell. Well, with the Elder and Ajax both losing, Alathar once again is the only unbeaten in the arena (beyond level 4.) -Jindl |
| Magagumo11-02-03, 04:09 PM | He doesn't huh? Whoops!! *laughing* Well I guess that negates Bruno's idea of one day exhausting the bat and sending the two of them crashing to the ground. *shrug* ah well! The Elder has always been a tough fight, its just that Deep Slumber is close range, and there was so much we could do to one another before it came up. I imagined Blindness could happen to Bruno, but I was very surprised when it actually occured. Should have put my own Mirror Image up ;) |
| Caterane11-02-03, 06:18 PM | Oh my god. What a crushing defeat! But how is one supposed to win against a flying spellcasting druid with twice your hp, a companion of equal hd and a couple of summoned monsters??? 5 vs 1. No chance. |
| fluiddragon11-02-03, 08:00 PM | quick question about hide. Can you move from your cover and be in the open and still be hidden or if the range is close is it an auto spot? I need to know asap I'm running a fight. -FD |
| Jindl11-02-03, 08:04 PM | FD - Cover/concealment for hiding is determined by where you begin and end your move. However, if a character moved out of hiding, into the open and attacked, his opponent (who failed to spot him when he was hiding) is treated as flatfooted, even though he can autospot the no-longer-hiding character. The opponent ceases to be flatfooted on his next action after the hidden character becomes visible (it works this way for invis as well.) Hope this helps. -Jindl |
| barrel_master11-02-03, 08:45 PM | Madcow >> A well thought suggestion... however, I'm kinda opposed to anyone getting points for miss run matches... it would just cause more arguements. |
| sloisel11-03-03, 03:04 AM | Thanks for running the fight Magamumo. Just a note, I really meant to have a cleric's dispel magic at caster level 5. I didn't craft it and so some other cleric crafted it, and I meet the 3 requirements on DMG238 (I'm divine, the spell is on my class list and I have the requisite ability score.) Sébastien Loisel |
| cellardweller11-03-03, 03:31 AM | Johan Talyana has been entered in the tournament (page 1). |
| Moherajikuyx11-03-03, 04:28 AM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket Scythe is a two-handed weapon, and spell casting requires one hand free at all times. No AoO would have resulted from my grapple attempts as he had cast in the same round. Can you point to any rule that says that you can't hold your weapon after spellcasting? Cur. didn't any 1-round spells. |
| Moherajikuyx11-03-03, 04:30 AM | :bow: Is this a surprise! Johan Talyana's back, madames et monsieurs! |
| WolfWings11-03-03, 04:45 AM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket My view on the Hurtz fight. Now the big point that MO claims lost on errors, and that was the lack of AoO from my grapple. Scythe is a two-handed weapon, and spell casting requires one hand free at all times. No AoO would have resulted from my grapple attempts as he had cast in the same round. As i was reading that, i thought Fluid did very well to remember that. But then as i read the messages here, it was an oversight. Thankfully a lucky (and correct) oversight. Hrm... can you point out where in the SRD or 3.5 books it says this would occur? I remember in 3.0 it being explained that if you had a 2-handed weapon, you could simply remove one hand from it to cast a spell and put it back as two effectively free actions. Specific set of actions: Free action: "Drop Item" with one of your two hands. This is the key, as it converts your two-handed weapon to one-handed mode, so it's still carried and not on the floor. Standard action: "Cast Spell" Movement-combining action: "Draw Weapon" In short, if you have a 2-handed weapon and cast a spell, I believe you still get to make AoO against opponents. BTW, I'm going to start running the one fight I need to this week... sorry it's taken so long, I got drug off of the computer for most of the week/weekend what with Samhain and all. =^.^= |
| Moherajikuyx11-03-03, 05:03 AM | Of course I don't want that fight reran, errors happen, I'm the first to do them in huge amounts :) I was not bitter when I wrote "let's be happy, 2/3" or the like. About the errors score, that's not the point of this thread. We're in the CO board after all. I mean, we can judge the effectiveness of a character even if it loses, if the losses are clearly motivated and obviously not due to the character: this one of the reasons for the no rerun rule. Sometimes, it is clearer that a character is an intrinsic winner if it loses only for errors in the moderating. Other times, it's clear that it's not optimized even if it wins, if it's for the errors. |
| Moherajikuyx11-03-03, 05:25 AM | BTW I just did the Default SheetTM! As the numbers grow, with new pupils and old veterans ;), we have to stabilize a default sheet for sake of clarity and for easyness of life. I invite everyone, old and new, to make use of it. Old characters are invited to use it, while new characters will have to use it. Proposals about improvements on the default sheet are expected here :) Fights left: Lev. 2 Candessa Rain, MotherBast vs. Franz Vonnegut, SnarkHunter: WolfWings Turnip the Test Bard, Jindl vs. Zorander Brogaden, Magagumo: LLMadCow Lev. 3 Octavian Cesar, barrel_master vs. Xaver, fluiddragon: LLMadCow Lev. 4 Lothar the Orc, LLMadCow vs. Kelek, Tellish_of_Ket: fluiddragon Lev. 7 Skymoon Moonbow, SnarkHunter vs. Alathar Vierce, Alathar Vierce: Caterane |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-03-03, 05:50 AM | Originally posted by WolfWings Specific set of actions: Free action: "Drop Item" with one of your two hands. This is the key, as it converts your two-handed weapon to one-handed mode, so it's still carried and not on the floor. Standard action: "Cast Spell" Movement-combining action: "Draw Weapon" In short, if you have a 2-handed weapon and cast a spell, I believe you still get to make AoO against opponents. Yes, you are quite right Wolfwings. I dunno where my head was, i guess i was thinking of AoO and readied actions. Meaning if you are holding onto a scythe and have a readied actions to grease, then you absolutely cannot re-grab a hold of your scythe because you don't have the extra move action and thus wouldn't get your AoO. But that didn't happen, but either way, just thought i'd bring it up. Tellish |
| Caterane11-03-03, 05:52 AM | Skymoon Moonbow, SnarkHunter vs. Alathar Vierce, Alathar Vierce: Caterane No update, no fight |
| MotherBast11-03-03, 08:56 AM | I was just over on the Glads thread and I noticed that the shortest fight needs to be changed. I think that bard guy Ralin killed someone on the first or second turn with a fireball scroll if I'm not mistaken. Which whould mean he either has or has tied for the record. And while I'm posting, any decision yet on level 3 fighters entering the arena? |
| Alterlat11-03-03, 09:19 AM | Sorry about jumping in ahead of you there barrel_master - it was pure coincidence that I put together the build then came over here and saw your discussion. Still, I'm sure the arena could handle more than one two-weapon fighter, and I wouldn't be surprised if my entry gets stomped on quickly. |
| Moherajikuyx11-03-03, 09:32 AM | MB - the consensus so far seems to be to allow the incoming of 2 racial HD, +1 LA races that shall start from one racial HD. Starting directly from level 3 would be quite against the spirit of this arena: a lot of importance is on the survivability of the low level chars, and level 3 instead of 2 would severely hamper the visibility of such thing. |
| Dorian H11-03-03, 10:03 AM | Sorry for this OOT question, I am not good at optimization. Why aren't there orcs in the arena ? The +4 STR green guys seem to be perhaps the more powerfull ECL +0 race for a fighter/barb build. |
| Irlina11-03-03, 10:24 AM | Originally posted by Dorian H Sorry for this OOT question, I am not good at optimization. Why aren't there orcs in the arena ? The +4 STR green guys seem to be perhaps the more powerfull ECL +0 race for a fighter/barb build. They're valid chars, I don't think there's a specific reason. Maybe noone wanted to play someone with green skin? |
| Jindl11-03-03, 10:28 AM | @Dorian H - well, Lothar the Orc was pretty successful, until people began targetting his will save. That's the problem with orcs, low will saves. Other than that, they do great. Why don't you post a build and give it a shot? @Alterlat - Welcome to the Arena. There's no problem with having more than one twf, just as long as their different in other ways (story, race, etc..) @Cat - that stinks that Alathar didn't update. Well maybe you can alter your story idea and run the Jindl vs Skymoon fight this week? @Moherajikuyx - On the topic of allowing ECL 3 to start, I don't like the idea of having a lizardman/gnoll/locathah start with only 1 hd (and yes these are the only 2hd, LA+1 monsters). A much better idea, IMO, is to allow a player to have a character (whether he is an ECL 3 or just a standard race at 3rd level) be allowed to start at 3rd level if he counts as 2 pc's for purposes of modding. That means only moderators can take advantage of this. It also means we don't have to try and break down what a monster with 2hd looks like with only 1 hd. It's worth it to allow this because it reduces the number of characters in the arena, while keeping the number of moderators the same (and helps prevent the problems with having enough people to run the fights.) And the advantage of starting at 3rd level is minor enough (only a couple hundred gp's) that we can do this. There seemed to be a lot of support for this idea, when I posted it a couple of days ago. Could we put it to a vote? If this idea works at 3rd level, it could potentially be extended to 4th level (counts as 3 pcs, and would allow bugbears.) -Jindl |
| LLMadCow11-03-03, 10:35 AM | Quote by Dorian H Sorry for this OOT question, I am not good at optimization. Why aren't there orcs in the arena ? The +4 STR green guys seem to be perhaps the more powerfull ECL +0 race for a fighter/barb build. Well, Dorian - do not listen to their lies. Lothar the Orc has been quite successful when he has remembere his SOAK PONY! What's a soak pony you ask? Well I'll tell you. Buy your self a beast of burden to carry your equipment, and so long as you are past level 2, the pony falls asleep and not you. Sleep must be targeted on an individual, so as long as said Orc is within 10' of weaker creature, it falls asleep. This is a solid, abusable tactic. Dogs work too. Just make sure you have 3HD and it has 2 HD. :) |
| fluiddragon11-03-03, 11:20 AM | Originally posted by Jindl [B @Moherajikuyx - On the topic of allowing ECL 3 to start, I don't like the idea of having a lizardman/gnoll/locathah start with only 1 hd (and yes these are the only 2hd, LA+1 monsters). A much better idea, IMO, is to allow a player to have a character (whether he is an ECL 3 or just a standard race at 3rd level) be allowed to start at 3rd level if he counts as 2 pc's for purposes of modding. That means only moderators can take advantage of this. It also means we don't have to try and break down what a monster with 2hd looks like with only 1 hd. It's worth it to allow this because it reduces the number of characters in the arena, while keeping the number of moderators the same (and helps prevent the problems with having enough people to run the fights.) And the advantage of starting at 3rd level is minor enough (only a couple hundred gp's) that we can do this. There seemed to be a lot of support for this idea, when I posted it a couple of days ago. Could we put it to a vote? If this idea works at 3rd level, it could potentially be extended to 4th level (counts as 3 pcs, and would allow bugbears.) -Jindl [/B] I think he has a good idea here. |
| Magagumo11-03-03, 12:03 PM | Yes, I agree with fluiddragon and Jindl, lets take a vote on this 2 PCs= 1 3rd level char, Lucient is probably getting the axe... and we'll see how Zorander does. If possible, it would be nice to get a conclusion before Wednesday, in case some of us want to make a 3rd level character for this week ^_~ Not quite as urgent: What was the conclusion on having spells cast outside of the arena? I know you have to walk in with 24-hr duration stuff, but I was wondering in reference to both Permanancy, and say rings of spell storing (which should be viable options for our arena, as the spells still cost quite a bit in the long run, and those rings aren't cheap ;)) Also, is having an extended Mage Armor (12th caster x 2nd level spellx10 gp= 240 gp) permissible then? Just trying to get all the facts to save me time :) As for the dispel magic, sloisel, Druids can't cast it till 7th level, as it is a 4th level spell for them. Thusly, you can't use a clericl scroll of dispel magic, costing 375 gp, you need a druid's dispel magic scroll, costing 700 gp. Thats' why you need to pay the extra. Jindl encountered this a while back too. |
| Moherajikuyx11-03-03, 12:08 PM | OK, poll open. About the 24h, it disappeared when people began asking for the spells for hire. |
| Caterane11-03-03, 12:35 PM | @Cat - that stinks that Alathar didn't update. Well maybe you can alter your story idea and run the Jindl vs Skymoon fight this week? No. It is not possible and it is even only possible this time, once. I`ll write him an email, again. I suggested to extend this fight into the next week. Good idea on the ECL 3 races. Oh and Jindl, you gave me a bad headache as I was absendminded the whole day`s lectures with thinking of a way to beat the druid next time. |
| Jindl11-03-03, 12:44 PM | Originally posted by Caterane No. It is not possible and it is even only possible this time, once. I`ll write him an email, again. I suggested to extend this fight into the next week. Actually, if he doesn't update, Mo should list him at the bottom (with the other inactive characters) until he comes back. If Alathar does update by Wed, then Mo should do a doesn't fight roll to determine who sits out. Basically, Alathar should have been listed inactive last week, which means Skymoon was the only active 7th level character. Now Skymoon and Jindl are the only active 7th levels, and they will fight each other, unless Alathar updates in which case there will be a doesn't fight roll. Originally posted by Caterane Good idea on the ECL 3 races. Thanks! Everybody please go to the polls thread and vote on it (see my vote for a better description of my idea!) Originally posted by Caterane Oh and Jindl, you gave me a bad headache as I was absendminded the whole day`s lectures with thinking of a way to beat the druid next time. A famous quote: The only way to win is not to play. (or maybe be a mounted charger paladin) :) |
| Caterane11-03-03, 12:49 PM | or maybe be a mounted charger paladin Perhaps a mounted charger deathcleric will do ;) |
| Jindl11-03-03, 12:58 PM | Originally posted by Caterane Perhaps a mounted charger deathcleric will do ;) Maybe. I would suggest getting the airwalk (Clr4/Drd4) spell and trying to get your mount to work normally under the effects of it. If a mounted build can't fly it won't work past about 6th or 7th level. I wonder if a horse can drink a potion of fly? Of course, then theres the whole problem of using Handle Animal to "push" him to act normal... (maybe you could use speak with animals instead of pushing?) -Jindl EDIT: Cat, how did the Havester make his full plate armor when his craft (Armor) skill is only +5 ? Even with m.w. tools thats a +7, and you need +8 ... |
| Magagumo11-03-03, 01:04 PM | Hmm, in my honest opinion, I would say that charcters can enter into the arena with spells running, only if the spell would last 24 hrs (as we discussed before). This means players either arrange for their own spells to last that long (as per Extend Spell) or pay enough gold for their "hired" spell to last 24 hours. My thought on the spells outside the arena consisted of the permenancy spells, or spells that permenantly modified your character (off the top of my head, I can think only of wish spells, and those generally can be duplicated by the books). Thusly, you could only enter with spell running 24 hrs or longer, but had the means to acquire these spells outside the arena. The other example would be purchasing a desecrate spell, so that any animated dead (created in the descerateion area) would gain the bonus +1 hp per HD. You would still be casting the animate dead, of course, but spending the extra on the side to give the minion a bit of survival would be nice. Of course, the descerated altar to your deity or aligned deity is a bit more on the RP side, so I would suggest we just ignore that ;). |
| Jindl11-03-03, 01:10 PM | A question about the undead creating spells: Most have a casting time in the minutes so you probably won't be casting them during a fight. With a duration of instant, they don't meet the guidelines for 24 hours or longer to pre-buff. All they effectively do is allow you to create an ally. Which of course, means that animate dead can only help you by creating 1 skeleton or 1 zombie. If you use create undead/create greater undead to make an ally, the undead are uncontrolled. So how do you make them follow your orders? These spells seem problematic. Although I would love to see them used (and the idea of an evil cleric bringing an undead ally into the arena is cool), I just don't know how to effectively use these spells. Any ideas? |
| LLMadCow11-03-03, 01:36 PM | Turnip the Test Bard vs. Zorander Brogaden has been posted. Now I just have to write up the second fight. Also, please give me some input on what you think of the flavor of the fights I run... |
| Caterane11-03-03, 02:54 PM | @Jindl: Really? Dc18? Ok, I`ll relocate a skill point and buy a [Ma] tool As for the undead creations: As with the summon monster spells you can have more than one skeleton. Yes, they have to be animated prior to combat but hey, that are only skeletons, it`s a 4th lvl spell and this would give us full flavor of necromancy + turn undead won`t be useless anymore. I don`t think this unbalances anything. In my campaign I play a necromancer. Perhaps I even add him if this gets through Uncontrolled undead can be command undeaded. |
| Jindl11-03-03, 03:05 PM | Originally posted by Caterane @Jindl: Really? Dc18? Ok, I`ll relocate a skill point and buy a [Ma] tool Well, you might as well take that skill point from ride. As a 5th level character you are limited to 8 ranks max in any skill (you have ride listed with 9 ranks.) I would suggest getting craft armor to a +10 (including tools, etc.) That way you can make masterwork/special material armor. I'm sure the Harvester would love adamantine plate mail. :devil: -Jindl |
| MotherBast11-03-03, 03:20 PM | About the turnip fight.... when he cast the sleep spell it should have been a full round action. Zorander should have had a round to either move out of the area or, much less likely, attack Turnip and dissrupt the spell. |
| Caterane11-03-03, 03:51 PM | Zorander? Isn´t that an elf? Couldn´t find it @Jindl: Aye. Adamantine Fullplate. Ah but I don`t know if I should take a 2nd level fighter or go cleric all the way |
| LLMadCow11-03-03, 04:01 PM | Quote by MotherBast About the turnip fight.... when he cast the sleep spell it should have been a full round action. Zorander should have had a round to either move out of the area or, much less likely, attack Turnip and dissrupt the spell. 1st - Sleep is not targeted on an area, but instead a creature. The creature was Zorander, so even if he moved, he was still the target. 2nd - Zorander had no idea where Turnip was. Zorander was a victim of Ventriloquism and Hide. Even if he had charged where he thought Turnip was, he would have been surprised to find out that the crafty little (In this case really tiny) gnome was no where to be found. Turnip had Hide Checks into the 40's. Sadly, zorander had NO chance of finding him, unless he heard him. And he did hear him, but what he heard was a voice being thrown to another pillar. Either way, the results would have been the same, but I have noted that Sleep takes a full round to cast. Thanks. :) |
| Jindl11-03-03, 04:14 PM | Actually, sleep is a 10 foot radius burst, not a targeted spell. So Zoander could have moved out of spell range, except that the range is 120 feet (too far for him to move) and he doesn't know where the caster is (thanks to hide + ventriloquism). Not to mention that he has no idea what spell is being cast (no spellcraft.) Note: Spells with 1 round casting times, like sleep and summon spells, etc. are not aimed until the spell is complete. Which means if Zoander had moved 20 feet but was still within medium range, Turnip could still aim the spell at him. LLMadCow, I was wondering if you were taking distance into account on those spot/listen checks? Also, a slight error in your math on my hide checks = +16 (normal) +10 elixer of hiding +1 (increased dex via reduce person) +4 (tiny size via reduce person) = +31 total modifier. And of course if Lullaby had effected Zoander, then he would have suffered an additional -5 to spot/listen checks, and a -5 of saves vs. sleep. I don't think these things would have changed the fight in any way, just pointing them out for future reference. -Jindl |
| Moherajikuyx11-03-03, 04:31 PM | I reworded a bit the 5th poll, I saw I was unclear. Jindl's proposal is the 5th, my proposal is 5a. I just closed the 4th poll, the answer was clearly "no" to the extended mage armor :) (and similars) About the 4a, the permanency+buff, it's still 7-5: looks we can't find a costitutional majority (2/3 +1). Let's permit it this week, but the poll is still open, and will be closed only after a clear majority gets out. OK? *edit* of course, only spells specifically written in the permanency description apply. That's not a lot. Note: invisibility is on objects only, so no inv. start. See Invis is on self only, so only arcanists can use it. The only valuable thing for non spellcasters seems to be Enlarge Self. |
| Moherajikuyx11-03-03, 04:45 PM | Ih ih, good work of Parry Hotter! That was due and good, LL! :D Lev. 2 Candessa Rain, MotherBast vs. Franz Vonnegut, SnarkHunter: WolfWings Lev. 3 Octavian Cesar, barrel_master vs. Xaver, fluiddragon: LLMadCow Lev. 4 Lothar the Orc, LLMadCow vs. Kelek, Tellish_of_Ket: fluiddragon Lev. 7 Skymoon Moonbow, SnarkHunter vs. Alathar Vierce, Alathar Vierce: Caterane (let's wait till tomorrow for this) |
| LLMadCow11-03-03, 04:49 PM | Quote by Jindl Actually, sleep is a 10 foot radius burst, not a targeted spell. So Zoander could have moved out of spell range, except that the range is 120 feet (too far for him to move) and he doesn't know where the caster is (thanks to hide + ventriloquism). Not to mention that he has no idea what spell is being cast (no spellcraft.) Note: Spells with 1 round casting times, like sleep and summon spells, etc. are not aimed until the spell is complete. Which means if Zoander had moved 20 feet but was still within medium range, Turnip could still aim the spell at him. Listed in the Sleep spell, the targeted area is ONE OR MORE LIVING CREATURES within a 10' radius burst. This does not simply say a 10' radius burst, otherwise you could target it anywhere and have the option for it to affect nothing... |
| Sir Cridion11-03-03, 05:12 PM | Hi! I came across this thread a few days ago, and it looks pretty fun. I've put up a build. However, I've noticed there's a few mounted chargers around already, so I hope this next one isn't too much. Anyways, this looks fun, so I look forward to a chance to test my build out! |
| Caterane11-03-03, 05:21 PM | Skymoon Moonbow, SnarkHunter vs. Alathar Vierce, Alathar Vierce: Caterane (let's wait till tomorrow for this) That means I can scrap the story, right? For future: unmark not updated characters!!!! |
| Jindl11-03-03, 05:22 PM | Originally posted by LLMadCow Listed in the Sleep spell, the targeted area is ONE OR MORE LIVING CREATURES within a 10' radius burst. This does not simply say a 10' radius burst, otherwise you could target it anywhere and have the option for it to affect nothing... That is listed as the area (and it says 10' radius burst). The spell does not have a a listing for target (like a blindness spell does.) Therefore it is not a targetted spell, but is an area effect spell (although the area is poorly-worded.) If it were a targeted spell then you would have to have line of sight to your target. Sleep does not require line of sight because it is an area effect spell. Targetted spells are also subject to spell turning (which sleep is not subject to.) I think the reason they list the area as "one or more living creatures within a 10' radius burst", is because the HD limit on the spell may only affect the closest creature to the center of the burst (unlike a fireball which affects every creature inside its burst.) This does not make the spell targetted, it is still an area effect spell, and could in fact be placed in an area with no living creatures and affect nothing. -Jindl @ Cat - I agree about unmarking not updated characters. @ Sir Cridion - Welcome to the Arena. |
| LLMadCow11-03-03, 05:52 PM | My fights for the week . Turnip the Test Bard, Jindl vs. Zorander Brogaden, Magagumo Octavian Cesar, barrel_master vs. Xaver, fluiddragon Done and Done. Allister Swiftfoot - Ready for combat at Level 4. Minor changes may be made prior to next selections. |
| MotherBast11-03-03, 06:53 PM | Im issuing my first challange..... After reading how Brackin brutaly killed Tomar's father, I have decided Brackin wants to do the same to the son. I'm giving Tomar a chance at revenge, and officaly challenging him to fight me this week. The # of fighters at level 4 should be even at 8 when all is said and done, so Tomar, this is your chance to get even. |
| Kukanil11-03-03, 07:32 PM | Ready |
| fluiddragon11-03-03, 07:49 PM | I posted Kelek vs Lothar. It took 4.5 hours to run, long fight lots and lots of rolls. Since I am dead tired and the fight took so long it is just a round by round. I had to adjust Keleks tactics slightly due to a mis-conception about how Goul Touch works. I sent an email giving him a chance to respond but I didn't hear anything after 24 hrs so I did the best I could with the action and tactics I had. I tried to stay true to the spirit of his tactics. I hope this fight isn't riddled with errors it's the first time I ran so many hide and move silent and related checks. -FD |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-03-03, 08:03 PM | Originally posted by fluiddragon I posted Kelek vs Lothar. It took 4.5 hours to run, long fight lots and lots of rolls. Since I am dead tired and the fight took so long it is just a round by round. I had to adjust Keleks tactics slightly due to a mis-conception about how Goul Touch works. I sent an email giving him a chance to respond but I didn't hear anything after 24 hrs so I did the best I could with the action and tactics I had. I tried to stay true to the spirit of his tactics. I hope this fight isn't riddled with errors it's the first time I ran so many hide and move silent and related checks. -FD I read and replied to all your e-mails. Sorry you missed the last one, where i said i'd color spray my own familiar instead of losing spell. Now i'll have to read fight and see how badly i may have messed up :) Tellish |
| fluiddragon11-03-03, 08:18 PM | Not too bad, Lothar just got lucky on the saves. If you had some scrolls of exp.retreat you would have won. He couldn't catch you untill it ran out you would have worn him down with the x-bow bolts. You could move more and he had to run to catch up or loose you all together. After it wore off he could catch you. -FD |
| sloisel11-03-03, 08:35 PM | Buttmunch is updated and ready to go |
| WolfWings11-03-03, 08:36 PM | I really hate to do this... Unfortunately, I have to ask someone else to run the fight I was scheduled to run this week. I found the time to run it once... but I lost the file I'd saved the fight in during a power outage. =-.-= And I simply don't have the time to run it again today, nor do I think I'll have a chance to run it again any time soon. I'll make it up somehow. Gorn or Ralin or both can sit out a week to make the fight-schedules even, maybe? =^.6= I have MotherBast's tactics, but those were the only ones I recieved still. I'll forward/PM them to whoever is willing to run this fight for me? I'd do it again tonight, but I need to crash soon for work in the morning, and most of the rest of this week I'll be equally busy. =-.-= |
| WolfWings11-03-03, 08:48 PM | Originally posted by MotherBast I was just over on the Glads thread and I noticed that the shortest fight needs to be changed. I think that bard guy Ralin killed someone on the first or second turn with a fireball scroll if I'm not mistaken. Which whould mean he either has or has tied for the record. No, I'm not the fastest fight ever with Ralin. If I hadn't bothered with Expeditious Retreat, I might have had a 1st-round takedown, but still not quite a true 'kill' in 2 rounds. It was 4 rounds before I had the 'confirmed' kill. I think I DID set a new first though: Flawless Victory. I never took a single point of damage the entire fight. :-) |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-03-03, 08:50 PM | Just wondering why i didn't move after cracking the smoke stick is all. At the very least a 5' step would have allowed me to step back from my last known square. Yah, i knew from the start that was my major downfall when i bought my kit and then pairings were announced. I didn't have enough exp. retreats and true strikes. I'm just gonna assume you had me doing the actual sniping (-20 hide) from long distance to compound his already low spot checks. Can i opt for a 'no comment' on the rest? I know he's a lengthy guy to moderate, i apolagize to moderators in advance for that. Tellish *EDIT* Oops...forgot something. @LL, congrats on Lothar's win. |
| Magagumo11-03-03, 09:25 PM | Hehe Turnip was also flawless, sigh. Zorander is on his grace period... better hit them next time. *Shrug* at least he didn't use anything... |
| barrel_master11-03-03, 09:49 PM | Wolfwings >> If it's low level, send it to me. If any of you have any problems with this tell me. |
| fluiddragon11-03-03, 10:28 PM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket Just wondering why i didn't move after cracking the smoke stick is all. At the very least a 5' step would have allowed me to step back from my last known square. Yah, i knew from the start that was my major downfall when i bought my kit and then pairings were announced. I didn't have enough exp. retreats and true strikes. I'm just gonna assume you had me doing the actual sniping (-20 hide) from long distance to compound his already low spot checks. Can i opt for a 'no comment' on the rest? I know he's a lengthy guy to moderate, i apolagize to moderators in advance for that. Tellish *EDIT* Oops...forgot something. @LL, congrats on Lothar's win. With the last smoke stick you cracked it because you couldn't get any farther that round and you were close to the cover of a column. It was that or be caught out in the open. You just hit him with a crossbow bolt the round before. He was running in the direction of where the bolts were coming from. You moved as far as you could then cracked the stick. He can run 160' in one round so it was tough. |
| Magagumo11-03-03, 11:41 PM | New character- Oscuridad Cachemar is up, we're trying for the 4th monk iteration here |
| SnarkHunter11-04-03, 12:17 AM | Wolf Wings, I just PMed my tactics for Franz to you. I can also send them to barrel if he's going to be running the fight... But tonight I sleep! |
| Alathar Vierce11-04-03, 12:59 AM | Well much to my abandon, I must retire my characters till further notice. School and work are taking up alot more of my time than it was, and not wanting to delay the moderators anymore (if possible, my apologies). I still have ideas here and there, and hopefully after this semester I'll have more free time to spend with the great community we have here. ----------------- ** Out the gate of the arena, a lone hooded figure strides forth the dawning sun. Passing the numerous attendees as they gather for this afternoons fight, the fellow cautiously tries not to draw to much attention.. After walking a good while, the figure turns towards the arena before it fades from his view. Dropping to one knee, the man pulls back the cowl from his face** "As much as I regret leaving this place, I fear my homeland needs me much more. I just hope the skills I've learned from these glorious battles, will be enough to earn my tribes respect and their freedom..." As he stands back up, his hand wanders to his fathers weapon, coiled at his side. A toothy grin fills his face as he turns north, towards home.. |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-04-03, 01:02 AM | Originally posted by fluiddragon With the last smoke stick you cracked it because you couldn't get any farther that round and you were close to the cover of a column. It was that or be caught out in the open. You just hit him with a crossbow bolt the round before. He was running in the direction of where the bolts were coming from. You moved as far as you could then cracked the stick. He can run 160' in one round so it was tough. k, assuming i'm shooting from (guessing) 120' out from cover. I'd get +20 to hide. With sniping at -20, still gives me an even roll. With his -2 plus -12 for range, he's at -14 to spot. You're telling me he made the spot to see where the bolts came from everytime? That's pretty hard to believe, but no worries, i know it must have been frustrating to run. What's the point of the -20 for sniping and high hide skills if moderators just run them there anyhow? It's like i'm getting penalized for having a stealthy, boring, character to run. All the wasted time planning tactics, and proper division of skills is gone to waste. Don't get me wrong, i'm not bitter at the lost, it's just frustrating getting nerfed on my stealth all the time, and and when you kept asking on forum about a long arduous fight and questions, i knew i was done for. DON'T read between the lines, i'm not saying you threw in the towel, i just knew things weren't going according to plan and something was amiss. Lothar has very good, non-stealthy, non-boring character to play. He deserved the win, it's not in question. Tellish |
| Moherajikuyx11-04-03, 04:39 AM | Sir Cridion - Welcome! New mounted chargers are always welcome! The first was retired long ago, JosephKell's Bes Ulmokina, after four very succesful levels. Only four, i might add... I wonder if he still looks at this thread :) Alathar Vierce - good bye! Iron the Panza's sad, he's not going to get Bonanza revenged! Originally posted by Caterane That means I can scrap the story, right? For future: unmark not updated characters!!!! I unmark characters when their fights get ran. I gave AV the option this week because there was just one fight... I'll stop doing that. |
| Moherajikuyx11-04-03, 04:56 AM | barrel_master - did you get the tactics from WW? I fear we don't have the time to wait any longer. *edit* I'll close the weekly fights today. Wolfwings, you should really tell before. |
| fluiddragon11-04-03, 06:45 AM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket k, assuming i'm shooting from (guessing) 120' out from cover. I'd get +20 to hide. With sniping at -20, still gives me an even roll. With his -2 plus -12 for range, he's at -14 to spot. You're telling me he made the spot to see where the bolts came from everytime? That's pretty hard to believe, but no worries, i know it must have been frustrating to run. What's the point of the -20 for sniping and high hide skills if moderators just run them there anyhow? It's like i'm getting penalized for having a stealthy, boring, character to run. All the wasted time planning tactics, and proper division of skills is gone to waste. Don't get me wrong, i'm not bitter at the lost, it's just frustrating getting nerfed on my stealth all the time, and and when you kept asking on forum about a long arduous fight and questions, i knew i was done for. DON'T read between the lines, i'm not saying you threw in the towel, i just knew things weren't going according to plan and something was amiss. Lothar has very good, non-stealthy, non-boring character to play. He deserved the win, it's not in question. Tellish Here is basicly how I ran Lothar given his Int. When he got hit I figured you could tell which general direction to go N,E,W, etc. And he would run in that direction. He can cover 160' a round. I mean if you get hit in the side your not going to run forward, your going to turn to your side and run. Sometimes you were hiding behind something and he would just check the nearest cover. If you are hiding behind a rock and he is 5-10 feat from you and is looking behind that rock straight at you with there being no other cover around I didn't make him roll a spot check. There was nothing to hide you and he was right there, now maybe this was wrong, but with no cover and at 5-10 feet I ruled he could see you as hide is not invisibility. Most of your moves were only 60' or so compared to his 160'. Plus you were at somewhat of a disadvantage as you could never see him comming from obstructions and couldn't hear him (You did make all the rolls to spell cast ok though). When he got close you could easily out distance him 240' to 160' and hide. You couldn't take all your shots at extreme range though. Exp Retreat only lasts 10 rounds. And you only had 2. With his movement rate you needed Exp Retreat to keep the distance. On the last shot I was just going to fireball him, but I didn't. It wasn't in your tactics and you didn't give me blanket permission to use it, plus average damage was not enough to drop him. But this could have worked. What really decided the end was the fact that he made his saves, even Color Spray, and you didn't have enough exp. retreat to keep your distance. If he failed goul touch or color spray the fight would have been over. If you had a few srcolls of exp retreat that also would have worked two just wasn't enough time, and if you stayed in the same spot you were dead. If you couldn't get to cover in 1 move you were dead. And most cover was at least 35' from 1 move to the next. |
| Moherajikuyx11-04-03, 08:09 AM | fluid - hiders are always difficult to run. I updated the roster - and did some cleanup. We'll have the pairings tomorrow, getting back to wednesdays! Update as soon as possible people. Candessa Rain vs. Franz Vonnegut will have to be delayed till next week, unless barrel_master makes it this evening. Even so, the characters will have to be ready for tomorrow, 12:00 GMT+0. (That's noon, not midnight, right?) |
| Jindl11-04-03, 08:14 AM | See you later Alathar! @ Snark - Well, I feel bad for you buddy. I just realized that unless barrel_master finishes the fight, none of your characters got to fight this week! That stinks. But since Skymoon didn't fight, its fine with me if you want to rearrange any equipment / skills / etc, that you gained after the fight with Bilo. Basically if you want to modify that level-up your welcome to as far as I am concerned. -Jindl PS: Barrel_master, Magagumo, LLMadCow, Tellish_of_Ket, Kukanil, Irlina - please go to the polls site and vote on how/if you want to allow ECL 3 characters... @ Sir Cridion + everyone else that's new - please go to the Core Arena Polls site (the link is at the top of the builds page) and make a single post, identifying your characters and voting on any open polls. |
| WolfWings11-04-03, 08:28 AM | ...and a well-equipped PDA on a break... I got the tactics to barrel_master, but you're probably right that there won't be enough time to run the fight. =-.-= As a reminder... both Ralin and Gorn should take the 'odd fighter out' this week, as I believe 2nd and 3rd level both have odd numbers of fighters. As in, they won't fight, but they're not retired. I just don't have time this week for much, unfortunately. :-/ |
| Moherajikuyx11-04-03, 09:14 AM | OK WW, try to tell us before next time. Maga - I see you gave Ability Focus to your monk. That's awesome, Rito would really like to have Improved Natural Attack and deal 2d6+3 with a blow... But, those feats are for monster characters only, I fear. I'd gladly be wrong... |
| fluiddragon11-04-03, 09:33 AM | Xaverr new and improved is ready as is Gage. I can only run 1 fight this week I am going to be out of town thursday-saturday. |
| barrel_master11-04-03, 10:48 AM | For whatever reason, I haven't recieved any tactics as of yet. I'll check up on the chars now review them for validity. |
| Jindl11-04-03, 11:02 AM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx OK WW, try to tell us before next time. Maga - I see you gave Ability Focus to your monk. That's awesome, Rito would really like to have Improved Natural Attack and deal 2d6+3 with a blow... But, those feats are for monster characters only, I fear. I'd gladly be wrong... If I could comment on this: The feats in the MM are available to anyone that can qualify for them (there is no such thing as monster only.) For example, Karse (if he had not retired) was going to get Quicken Spell-like ability for his enlarge person ability (after he reached high enough level to qualify). As such, Ability Focus and Improved Natural Attack are available if you can qualify. 1. Ability Focus for a monk's stunning fist is fine, and Magagumo's character does qualify. Other great uses would be combining Ability Focus with an assassin's death attack or a bard's bardic music suggestion ability. 2. Improved Natural Attack is fine if you have natural attacks. Unfortunately, I don't think a monk's unarmed strike is considered a natural attack (as far as I know nobody's unarmed strikes are considered natural attacks.) Now, a dragon disciples claws/bite or the claws of a Lizardman (soon to enter the arena) are both natural attacks and do qualify for this feat. Also a druid could qualify for the feat (using Wild Shape) but it would only apply in animal form if the animal had the type of attack that is improved. So, Ability Focus seems to be pretty useful and readily available to some characters, while improved natural attack will rarely be seen because of difficulty qualifying. The same reasoning can be used for improved natural armor, empower and quicken spell-like abilities, fly-by-attack, etc. -Jindl |
| Caterane11-04-03, 11:05 AM | An excerpt from my campaign: Vandaeris Dre`Dandhral, my necromancer, had made a Giant helpless. He wanted to CDG him with a Scorching ray but my DM forbid that. If you look at p154 PHB you can read "only melee weapons, crossbows and bows" Apparently we made it wrong all the time. |
| barrel_master11-04-03, 11:09 AM | I have a question regarding metagaming in the fights... should we be doing it? I mean, sometimes in the tactics I get instructions like 'use two weapon fighting only if opponent has AC of less then 18' or 'if they cast exp. retreat then I'll cast exp. retreat'... now should I follow these? By all means, a character may or may not have an knowlage of magic buffs or even how much AC another char has. |
| Jindl11-04-03, 11:13 AM | Originally posted by Caterane An excerpt from my campaign: Vandaeris Dre`Dandhral, my necromancer, had made a Giant helpless. He wanted to CDG him with a Scorching ray but my DM forbid that. If you look at p154 PHB you can read "only melee weapons, crossbows and bows" Apparently we made it wrong all the time. Wow, look at that. So no ranged touch spells. But CDG with shocking grasp is still okay (as is any melee touch spells because they are counted as melee weapons.) -Jindl |
| Jindl11-04-03, 11:17 AM | Originally posted by barrel_master I have a question regarding metagaming in the fights... should we be doing it? I mean, sometimes in the tactics I get instructions like 'use two weapon fighting only if opponent has AC of less then 18' or 'if they cast exp. retreat then I'll cast exp. retreat'... now should I follow these? By all means, a character may or may not have an knowlage of magic buffs or even how much AC another char has. They answer is ... maybe. If they are talking about an AC of x amount, then I would say no. The tactics could read, if I'm having trouble hitting, then stop using two weapon fighting, which would be okay. If they are talking about a spell effect, then have them make a spellcraft check (its trained only, btw.) Of course the tactics could say, If I need more mobility, cast expeditious retreat... But you are correct that the amount of metagaming tactics needs to be reduced. Its okay to wait for a fly spell to wear off, but remember that the character has NO IDEA how long that's going to take. As for reacting to other spellcasting (like trying to move away from a sleep spell) the character has to make a spellcraft check to know what the spell is (because it could be a reduce person spell, in which case you don't want to run away...). Good point - barrel_master. -Jindl |
| Moherajikuyx11-04-03, 11:36 AM | Jindl - you're right, I remembered monster-only. Cool! Only thing, requisite are such also when selecting a feat, so even a druid can't satisfy the natural attack requisite. It's different from MotW feats, which requisites are "access to...". Cat - whoa, you got quite a dm! Metagaming - the perfect way to avoid it would be to keep equipment secret until the fights. Of course, that's impossible, unless we move to a site, and I think we're not ready yet. |
| Jindl11-04-03, 11:46 AM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Jindl - you're right, I remembered monster-only. Cool! Only thing, requisite are such also when selecting a feat, so even a druid can't satisfy the natural attack requisite. It's different from MotW feats, which requisites are "access to...". I think once a druid can stay wildshaped 24 hours a day (and thus can always be wildshaped), then he could use the animals ability scores/natural attacks/etc to qualify for feats. This is similar to using a belt of giants strength to give you the str necessary to qualify for power attack. If a nonpermanent bonus (like wearing a magic belt, or being wildshaped) can be used 24 hours a day, then the bonus allows access to the feat. If the bonus is lost, then the feat is effectively lost until the bonus returns. That's just my take on it (I think there are sage rulings and such to support this, but I'm not sure if I can find support in the SRD - which is very vague on the subject.) Using my reasoning, the druid could access the feat after 8th level (wildshape 3/day for 8 hours each = 24 hours total). Again, any feats accessed this way would only work while in a form that grants access. -Jindl EDIT: Btw, Mo - Ebelin has 2 losses (Bilo + Jindl). |
| Moherajikuyx11-04-03, 11:54 AM | Hum, hum... A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons. Is a feat an effect? :confused: |
| Jindl11-04-03, 11:58 AM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Hum, hum... Is a feat an effect? :confused: I don't know? I gues it could be considered an effect, but I always thought of effects as being magic in nature. If it is an effect then you can clearly qualify for the feat. I think there are some other threads on this board about this topic, if you want to look at other people's arguments/reasoning. -Jindl EDIT: Turnip is Inactive. But when he comes back, he will have a +34 modifier to his hide checks in this fight (without using invisibility)... :devil: "Who said bards suck?" |
| LLMadCow11-04-03, 12:35 PM | Outside of the Arena Lothar steps up and reviews the roster for the weeks upcoming fights. Gathered around him are a dozen or so Orcs from the local tribe. [Translated from Orcish] "Kill the elven *****!" Several of the Orcs are shouting and pointing at the entry for Mara ThunderStorm: Mara, ThunderStorm Female, Wood Elf, Barbarian 2 - Fighter 3 Chaotic Good Follower of Kord "Hrumph!" Lothar seems content with the idea. "She thinks she can best Lothar? I must challenge her, kill her, and feast on her bones!" Shouting as loud as the orc can, speaking in common, lothar shouts - "Lothar stand in front of arena to challenge Mara Drizzle! Lothar will beat her and turn her into Mara Puddle!" The orcs laugh and applause, slapping each others backs and nodding in approval. Lothar stands in front of the roster - head tall, arms crossed and waiting for Mara to step forward and accept the challenge... |
| Jindl11-04-03, 12:43 PM | Can't challenge for the 5th level fights, there are an uneven number of competitors... Remember that you can only challenge if there is an even number of characters at that level. -Jindl |
| LLMadCow11-04-03, 12:46 PM | Well, can Mo roll for who the odd man out is and then allow for challenges? If neither Lothar or Mara are randomly selected as the odd person out then I would like the challenge to stand... Make sense? |
| Caterane11-04-03, 12:47 PM | Outside of the Arena Lothar steps up and reviews the roster for the weeks upcoming fights. Gathered around him are a dozen or so Orcs from the local tribe. [Translated from Orcish] "Kill the elven *****!" Several of the Orcs are shouting and pointing at the entry for Mara ThunderStorm: Mara, ThunderStorm Female, Wood Elf, Barbarian 2 - Fighter 3 Chaotic Good Follower of Kord "Hrumph!" Lothar seems content with the idea. "She thinks she can best Lothar? I must challenge her, kill her, and feast on her bones!" Shouting as loud as the orc can, speaking in common, lothar shouts - "Lothar stand in front of arena to challenge Mara Drizzle! Lothar will beat her and turn her into Mara Puddle!" The orcs laugh and applause, slapping each others backs and nodding in approval. Lothar stands in front of the roster - head tall, arms crossed and waiting for Mara to step forward and accept the challenge... ...but then an offending stench assaulted the nostrils of the bunch of orcs as a figure clad in tattered robes shoved its way through the nauseated orcs. The Harvester held up a mailed finger and a voice sounded in Lothar`s mind like thousand tortured souls combined SHE`S MIIIINNNNNEEEEE!! |
| Jindl11-04-03, 12:48 PM | Well, I can't blame you all for being afraid to face the Elder... (LL - yes that would be fine. I would suggest that Mo make the doesn't fight roll when he updates the roster, anytime there is an uneven number of characters...) -Jindl |
| LLMadCow11-04-03, 12:51 PM | Quote by Caterane ...but then an offending stench assaulted the nostrils of the bunch of orcs as a figure clad in tattered robes shoved its way through the sickened orcs. The Harvester held up a mailed finger and a voice sounded in Lothar`s mind like thousand tortured souls combined SHE'S MIIIINNNNNEEEEE!! Lothar smiles and replies, "You can have her once I am done with her. Why not go kill that Old Man who is so near death?" |
| Caterane11-04-03, 12:57 PM | Lothar smiles and replies, "You can have her once I am done with her. Why not go kill that Old Man who is so near death?" I don`t like flying thingsss and he`sss already assss good assss dead and ssssso I`ll have two soulsssss. But I fear the anccccccient elfffff won`t fight because offff organizzzzzer Mo`ssssss "mossst combatantssss" policcccy |
| Jindl11-04-03, 01:03 PM | Good point, Cat. Turnip is hereby declared [inactive]. Meaning I now have only 2 characters (this round.) Of course that means there is now an odd number of 3rd level characters... -Jindl Remember, Turnip is the Test Bard and I'm only running him to show that bards can be effective. He's not really one of my iconic characters (like Jindl or the Elder.) As such, he will always take a back seat to the others. |
| Caterane11-04-03, 01:11 PM | Later that day the Harvester could be seen kneeling and appaerently talking to himself ... and ifffff I have to ffffight the ffflying elffff I neeeeed more resssssources, Masssster. SSSSent me a flying ssssssteed and I ffffinisssshhhh the elfffff. ...but then a booming voice could be heard NOOOOO!!! IF YOU EVEN BURN TOO MANY DISPEL SCROLLS YOU`LL BE PUNISHED IN FORM OF GAINING NO SOULS FOR ONE WEEK!! SO CATERANE HAS DECIDED! Yessss, Masssster. I undersssstand. I`ll challenge one of the barbariansssss. ...then he turned his head, burning pinpoints of crimson lights fixed upon Lothar and Lothar heard the same voice in his head as the Harvester pointed a gloved finger at him YOOOOUUUUU!! |
| Magagumo11-04-03, 01:21 PM | *laughs* this challenge idea is becoming quite amusing.. and I like The Harvester's voice, Cat ;) As for the monk's natural weapon, I do belive you could qualify for the feat, as the prerequisite is (Natural attack, +4 base attack bonus). Of course, monk's don't get +4 till 6th level (go Rito!), so it isn't too insane.. too quick. Ah heck, that is pretty incredible, but I don't see anything that states it can't be done... it does seem that the monk's natural progression of weapon damage would rule this out, but I can't say for certain. A grimacing gnome wanders up to the old pairing sheet. "Hmm, looks like we have some new friends, don' we Tommy?" "Dat we do boss, you thinkin' of challenging one of them" "It 'ad crossed my mind, Tommy, it 'ad. Let's see now.... we've got that tricky bugger of an elf, always waving that sword around like he was going to stick ya with it, and then there's that Bilo fellow, I like his style, but I ain't too sure I'd meet him in any dark ally, at least not alone, eh?" "Well, what about that Rito guy, boss? Would you honestly like to fight him?" "Hmm, roight, that settles it then, I am hereby declaring that pansy of an elf, Ebelin Berry-Bush, to be too much of a sap-sucking, treehugger to ever face me in the ol' ring. I challenge him to combat, and ask him only to put some skin on those thin bones, so that my boars have somethin substantial to feed on after I gut him, and feed his lil frog to Tommy here" *Spits*" |
| Jindl11-04-03, 01:26 PM | Hrm, I think we need another thread. Core Arena Tournament - Challenges and Character Dialogue !! -Jindl |
| LLMadCow11-04-03, 01:28 PM | Well, that sounds like an idea, but poor Mo is already doing so much as it is. Should one of us start the thread and have an Initial post that is strictly for the listing of current challenges and if they were accepted? Then mo could check that post and arrange for the fights? |
| Caterane11-04-03, 01:34 PM | Sweet water and light laughter, gnome. Though you are an equal thorn in my eye for the evil you radiate there is a much viler person to be send to the Abyss. Perhaps if you win your fight against noble Rito - not that I hope this happens - we may talk again and I will gladly agree to bury your corpse next to Bilo Darkleafs. If you apologize me now - I have to enter my reverie |
| Jindl11-04-03, 01:40 PM | Originally posted by LLMadCow Well, that sounds like an idea, but poor Mo is already doing so much as it is. Should one of us start the thread and have an Initial post that is strictly for the listing of current challenges and if they were accepted? Then mo could check that post and arrange for the fights? We'll let Mo start the thread, it should be extremely low upkeep. And its a great way to keep the discussion here limited to rules/policy, while allowing a forum for challenges, trash talking, etc. Plus, as you said, Mo could easily check there for challenges. But, like all the arena threads, I would like Mo to make the initial post. -Jindl |
| Caterane11-04-03, 01:51 PM | Ok, and I provide the first rule to this thread! Every player choses a certain color and keeps it until he quits the Arena. This way it won`t be too confusing to browse through the challenges. And because I proposed this rule I will be the first to choose my color ...of course only in the case we do it that way :rolleyes: Caterane`s color is INDIGO It`s my favorite color |
| Caterane11-04-03, 01:53 PM | I am hereby declaring that pansy of an elf, Ebelin Berry-Bush Look Jindl what you`ve done!! Now they think I`m weak!! Oh praise the gods and beg to them that we never meet again |
| Jindl11-04-03, 01:59 PM | If we go the color route, Jindl chooses DarkGreen (as befits a Guardian of the High Forest). And for the Elder, White, to match his hair. (actually its LightGrey, because white is invisible...) And Cat, have Ebelin accept the challenge and mince the puny gnome (or are you weak?) Lvl 6 is gonna be interesting - 3 wizards and a grappling monk (wizard killer). :) |
| Caterane11-04-03, 02:03 PM | And Cat, have Ebelin accept the challenge and mince the puny gnome (or are you weak?) I am wise enough not to succumb to such tactics Jindl. I am not afraid of Bruno but I choose my opponoments in order of the least expensive fight. Edit: ...but if Mo agrees I accept a challenge from Rito Maya the wizard killer |
| LLMadCow11-04-03, 02:06 PM | FINE! TAKE THE FOREST GREEN! Allister chooses green, the color of grass. |
| Jindl11-04-03, 02:06 PM | And you think Bilo is less expensive? Well, maybe you know something I don't. But IMO, Bilo and Bruno are approximately the same in power and capabilities. Actually, I think all of the level 6 combatants are pretty evenely matched, no matter who you fight it will likely be expensive. -Jindl |
| barrel_master11-04-03, 02:12 PM | Just a heads up... snark... if you can try emailing me with your tactics as soon as possible... if I don't get it by about in about 3 hours I probably won't be able to run this fight by this evening. |
| Caterane11-04-03, 02:15 PM | Actually I would prefer the Monk. That fight is much more predictable |
| SnarkHunter11-04-03, 03:10 PM | Barrel I just e-mailed them! Lemme know if you need em PMed instead... As the the first to start doing this I must have Bilo lay claim to Crimson, its the color offresh blood you know... And For noble moon moon, no color but ...never mind there isn't a gold...NOBLE ORANGE! will suffice. I must admit I have no ernest desire to spill your blood Bruno. We've worked well together and with perseverance I see this as a partnership that could shake heaven's foundations. And you never know when a heard of pigs is going to come in handy... I mean don't get me wrong-If push comes to shove I'll spill your blood and gleefuly draw stick figures of it in the dust-but its only if I must, I hope you understand. As for the other two? that elf? what's-his-face the monk? Ah you make me chuckle. I'll kill either or both, I care not. Either one is but a stepping stone to the next teir of my vengance. Moon-moon. and Jindle!...you will not escape me forever. We meet again good Jindle, though the circumstances pain this one as always I-Silvermoon Moonbow-shall do battle with all honor and fairness as demanded by my calling. Good luck sir. My isn't this fun... |
| Jindl11-04-03, 03:22 PM | A note about colors: I suggest that you must earn a color - therefore you must be level 5 or higher to claim a color (although we'll make an exception for Allister, since he already claimed one at level 4). That way hopefully we won't run out of colors... It is unfortunate that we must face each other again so soon, noble elf. But I must warn you. For though I will fight with honor, you can expect the full fury of nature to be unleashed upon you. Strangely, I know that you would have it no other way. And nor would I. Eh, did somebody say something? Bubo, bring me my spec's. That's a good owl. Now, what are all these fools chattering about. Challenging this... Challenging that... Now when I was a boy, we knew how to challenge people ... [drifts off to sleep] Zzzz... |
| Caterane11-04-03, 03:37 PM | I see a problem with every character having its own color. There are just 24 to choose from and 3 of them are barely readable. I suggest to restrict a color to the player thus all his/her (let`s stay politically correct) characters use the same. Jindl - Sooner or later we`ll have too many characters of 7th level and higher, so this your`s is just a temporary solution |
| Jindl11-04-03, 03:43 PM | @Cat - perhaps eventually. But for now I think we can give each character a color, if they are 5th or higher. Later, we can up it to 10th (if necessary). Although we seem to have reached a staus quo for the number of players/characters of higher level (due to higher levels retiring/going inactive). Besides, we can always just double up the colors (allow 2 characters to have Orange for example) when it becomes necessary. -Jindl |
| Galamdring11-04-03, 03:55 PM | I miss the forums for a couple of days and i find posts about colors, chalenges... Is this anything important, or just flavor? |
| LLMadCow11-04-03, 04:11 PM | You, my friend, have been challenged to a fight (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1751957#post1751957) and I am awaitig your reply... |
| Caterane11-04-03, 04:16 PM | ...and I @LL: ...and you`ve been challenged too Edit: Just testing something Kelek…., (-21/-8); 23/23 hp, Expeditious retreat (1/10) Iron.….., (0/-1); 42/42 hp, casting Summon monster II |
| Magagumo11-04-03, 04:37 PM | Very well then, if one color is our selection, then firebrick has become my favorite. Like the dried blood on a sacrificial scythe or one's own hands, or the red clay of your homeland, this shall be the color of my three champions Hmm, so the elf has polymorphed imself into a chicken. And it seems my "blood-brother" Bilo shares my sentiments on an arranged scuffle between the two of us. So it seems the hands of fate work against us, Tommy. If Bilo accepts the chicken's challenge, then the meat on Rito's bones shall serve my purposes nicely. Tommy!! Begin starving the boars! They will feast well on 300 lbs of human gourmet's flesh! Hmm, uneven fights on 2nd level, Oscardidad and Zorander will have to be patient I suppose ;) |
| LLMadCow11-04-03, 04:46 PM | ...then he turned his head, burning pinpoints of crimson lights fixed upon Lothar and Lothar heard the same voice in his head as the Harvester pointed a gloved finger at him YOOOOUUUUU!! Lothar turns to the servitor of death and says "Wait - Lothar must kill Elf ***** first. Lothar will kill you later. If Elf ***** is afraid to die in arena, then I will kill you instead. Fair?" |
| Jindl11-04-03, 04:50 PM | I would again like to point out to LLMadCow and to Caterane, that there are an uneven number of 5th level characters, and thus no challenges are available at that level until Mo does a "doesn't fight roll." -Jindl EDIT: Doh. Thanks for the correction, Cat. Ajax does in fact sit out (unless barrel_master unmarks one of his other characters). |
| Caterane11-04-03, 04:51 PM | Since you unmarked your 3rd character it is Ajax who sets out |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-04-03, 05:27 PM | Originally posted by fluiddragon Here is basicly how I ran Lothar given his Int. When he got hit I figured you could tell which general direction to go N,E,W, etc. And he would run in that direction. He can cover 160' a round. I mean if you get hit in the side your not going to run forward, your going to turn to your side and run. Sometimes you were hiding behind something and he would just check the nearest cover. If you are hiding behind a rock and he is 5-10 feat from you and is looking behind that rock straight at you with there being no other cover around I didn't make him roll a spot check. There was nothing to hide you and he was right there, now maybe this was wrong, but with no cover and at 5-10 feet I ruled he could see you as hide is not invisibility. Most of your moves were only 60' or so compared to his 160'. Plus you were at somewhat of a disadvantage as you could never see him comming from obstructions and couldn't hear him (You did make all the rolls to spell cast ok though). Thanx for making it clearer. I wasn't saying what i was saying to be ungrateful for yuo running Kelek. Heck, i'd hate to mod him. And like i said from the beginning as well, i knew i had made poor decidsion with buying kit, and i'm glad you didn't use the fireball. Thx for trying to stay as true to the tactics as possible and i do appreciate you running it. We all learn, i know i learned about my lack of paying attention to some details when buying kit. It was rectified after the loss i assure you. I'll have plenty of true strikes and exp. retreats to go around for my next fight. lol Thx again Fluid. Tellish |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-04-03, 05:37 PM | Originally posted by Magagumo *As for the monk's natural weapon, I do belive you could qualify for the feat, as the prerequisite is (Natural attack, +4 base attack bonus). Of course, monk's don't get +4 till 6th level (go Rito!), so it isn't too insane.. too quick. Ah heck, that is pretty incredible, but I don't see anything that states it can't be done... it does seem that the monk's natural progression of weapon damage would rule this out, but I can't say for certain. Nope. A monk's unarmed strike does not qualify for it. A natural attack is something that is born by race, not by feats. Looking under Humans, there is nothing listing them as having natural attacks. Taking the improved unarmed strike feats only allows you to make 'unarmed attacks' without provoking and it's other fringe benefits. It doesn't give you 'natural attacks' (see dragon disciple). Tellish |
| barrel_master11-04-03, 07:46 PM | Candy vs Franz up... did it quickly, are probably mistakes... kinda boring to read... 2 natural '1's killed the looser (I thought he was going to win) |
| MotherBast11-04-03, 08:52 PM | Ok, Candessa "Eye Candy" Rain is updated and ready for the level 3 fights. I spent a little cash to take her in a new, hopefully more effective and proactive, direction. All three Arena Bards won this I think. I know Ralin and Candy did, and didn't Turnip the test bard win too? Good week for the Bards. Level 3 should be full of them now. I hope Candy is in time to get in on the level 3 parings. If not, and someone was leftover, I'll gladly take them on. I'm eager to test my new tactics. :smirk: And I hope a decision on the level 3 characters entering the arena is reached soon, I'm eager to build my barb/sorc/DD. |
| sloisel11-04-03, 08:53 PM | What happens when a smartass decides to starve his enemy to death by retreating into a rod of safety or rope trick or Mordenkainen's mansion or plane shift or teleport or stasis? Sébastien Loisel EDIT: I think we should instigate a time limit (like 24 hours) after which the match is declared a draw (if both participants were in the arena for most of that time) or a forfeit (if one of the participants spent most of his time in some sort of asylum.) |
| fluiddragon11-04-03, 09:02 PM | A couple really dumb questions. 1. If using a LA+1 race you only get the hit points from 1 level of what ever class you take right? (ie a hobgoblin rogue starts with 6 hp + con adjust) 2. Do familiars gain feats and skill points as the master levels? I thought I saw sombodies hawk with a couple extra feats. 3. Riding Dogs cost 150gp is there are price that you can buy them trained for war or can you only get them trained for war with the proper ranks in handle animal? (Big differance in combat performance for a trained vs untrained riding dog). 4. Are we doing credits for mods who have less than the number of characters than they could have due to the number of fights they ran/run or was this just an idea we were throuwing around? -fd |
| fluiddragon11-04-03, 09:05 PM | Originally posted by sloisel What happens when a smartass decides to starve his enemy to death by retreating into a rod of safety or rope trick or Mordenkainen's mansion or plane shift or teleport or stasis? Sébastien Loisel The mod gets to stone the coward! They send a hit squad of elite mind flayers and a flumph to retrieve the character, then string him up in the arena and let stick him with safety pins untill he expires. |
| sloisel11-04-03, 09:38 PM | Hey Moh, you're not counting votes right. First off, when a ballot isn't correct, discount it. That's just common sense. Don't second-guess the voter. It's very easy for everyone to create valid ballots. If they're not doing it, they're forfeiting their vote. If the guy says "I think this is a good idea," feel free to count it as a yea, but if the guy goes off on a tangent and doesn't really answer the question, just ignore the ballot. Second, some of the vote questions smell a lot like "approval voting" (see http://alumweb.mit.edu/whatmatters/200211/) As an example, in 4 (and 4a) you've essentially got three choices: A) You can buy buffs from spellcasters. B) You can buy buffs from spellcasters if they are permanencied. C) You can not buy buffs from spellcasters. Now, some people voted for A (by answering yea to 4, and not answering 4a), some people voted for B (by answering yea to 4a and not answering 4), some people voted for C (by answering no to 4 and 4a.) However, if I understand how you're counting, if they voted a yea on 4a, and nothing on 4, you're counting a nay on 4. Also, if they didn't answer 4a, you're assuming the same answer as 4. Neither of these interpretations are necessarely very accurate. For instance, I voted yea on 4 and nay on 4a. Please count more strictly. For instance, my tally for 4 and 4a is: 4: N xxxxxx Y xxxx 4a: N xxxxx Y xxxxxx Some ballots that aren't so good and weren't counted: Moh, you didn't answer 4a. I suspect what you answer would be, and since you're counting it doesn't matter too much, but that's an example of what someone not answering 4a looks like. Snark didn't answer 4. barrel_master didn't answer 4a. Mag didn't answer 4. LLmadcow didn't answer 4a. Kukanil didn't answer 4a. Wolfwings didn't answer 4 and his answer in 4a doesn't need a greek tragedy to go with it (although I counted it.) Sir Cridion, who probably came in after 4 closed, didn't vote for 4. Jindl mentions 4 and 4a specifically, so I ended up counting him as a 4.nay/4a.yea, however this isn't ideal. This doesn't change the outcome of the vote at this point, but you can bet your ass there'll be a case where careful counting will change everything. For instance, if you see the tally for 4a and you know you haven't voted right, you can update your vote to something more meaningful to either tip the scale or ensure its victory. If I counted you as a nay, Moh (I didn't), there are as many yeas as there are nays. I also suggest that you decide on a voting system when multiple choices are involved. The two main choices are approval voting and instant runoff. I recommend approval voting because it's easier to count, but both systems are good. In approval voting, the ballots lists any number of candidates (A, B and C for instance) and you can vote for any number of them. At the end, each candidate gets one point for each vote he gets. So if you vote for A and B, you're giving a point to A and B, this is a way of voting against C. This is more or less what you've been approximating with your 4 and 4a, but you've been counting weird. Realize that in examples like 4 and 4a, if both end up with a yea winning, you're not going to know which to apply. So if some questions can have mutually incompatible outcomes, make it into a multiple-choice vote (A, B or C) and use approval voting (or instant runoff, whatever.) I've abstained for 5/5a because I frankly don't care about it at all, but there are weird ballots in there (for instance Cat doesn't answer 5a at all, Wolfwing's answer to 5 is undecipherable.) It's probably too late for 5/5a, but the choices should have been: "5) A- ECL 3 creatures, if you moderate an extra fight; B- +1LA/2HD creatures start with 1HD and C- Status quo" and a valid vote would have been: "5) A,B." Because now if you get yea for both 5 and 5a, what are you going to do? When you make them vote like this, they think they have to vote yes for 5 or 5a, but not both. So you're dividing the yea vote, and even if most people would prefer to have higher HD/LA creatures in the arena, the nays might end up winning just because there are two mutually exclusive ways of saying "yes." Thanks, Sébastien Loisel |
| Sir Cridion11-04-03, 09:43 PM | Ah... nevermind. Delete this post if you can please. |
| Jindl11-04-03, 11:49 PM | Originally posted by fluiddragon A couple really dumb questions. 1. If using a LA+1 race you only get the hit points from 1 level of what ever class you take right? (ie a hobgoblin rogue starts with 6 hp + con adjust) Yes. Originally posted by fluiddragon 2. Do familiars gain feats and skill points as the master levels? I thought I saw sombodies hawk with a couple extra feats. No, but a familiar has the same feats and skill ranks as its master (although it uses its own ability scores for the skills.) Originally posted by fluiddragon 3. Riding Dogs cost 150gp is there are price that you can buy them trained for war or can you only get them trained for war with the proper ranks in handle animal? (Big differance in combat performance for a trained vs untrained riding dog). See the Handle Animal skill: Riding dogs are automatically trained in the combat riding purpose if you want them to be. This counts as "trained for war" for purposes of the trip ability. Originally posted by fluiddragon 4. Are we doing credits for mods who have less than the number of characters than they could have due to the number of fights they ran/run or was this just an idea we were throuwing around? Mo has already started the credit system. A mod who runs fights beyond the minimum required by his # of pc's gets a credit. Each round, the extra fights are assigned to mods without credits (which earns them a credit.) Once everyone has a credit, all the credits are eliminated and it begins again. The whole point is to make sure the extra fights are evenly distributed over time. -Jindl |
| SnarkHunter11-04-03, 11:52 PM | Franz, Now named Hanz-natch. Ready to go. My other two characters are of course also ready to go... |
| barrel_master11-05-03, 01:02 AM | Should I retire Ajax? Quite frankly, in terms of melee fighting... I've brought him as far as he can go. |
| MadCowTemplate11-05-03, 02:49 AM | What happens when a smartass decides to starve his enemy to death by retreating into a rod of safety or rope trick or Mordenkainen's mansion or plane shift or teleport or stasis? May I suggest that it be made a rule that no character may "Hide" (in the other planer sense) without some purpose, such as buffing or waiting out a short spell/summoned creature? Or a set reasonable time limit. That would be a very Prince Edward tactic (and I use the term "tactic" loosely) after all, and sort of goes against the idea of a voluntary one-on-one arena battle. Of course, now that I think about it, the same might be said of ordinary hiding in certain situations. Edward's Tactics 1. Toss Twin Harp A into center of arena 2. Run and take cover far away from opponent 3. Play Twin Harp B whenever opponent is in range of TH-A 4. If opponant attempts to cause me some kind of physical pain, Hide until he surrenders. |
| Moherajikuyx11-05-03, 05:36 AM | Cat - Originally posted by Caterane Actually I would prefer the Monk. That fight is much more predictable :devil: slosiel - thanks for your input, I was quite unsure about how to handle some issues. You're the Poll Counselor now :) The Approval Voting looks bad to me: it requires many votations, and here people tend to do just one. Maybe the multichoice you suggest is the best way. barrel_master, I put Ajax in the waiting characters, I really hope I understood the "sitting out" well. hiding for long - that's left to the moderator, who will be free to punish the hider as he likes. The arena public wants blood, and carries many things: vegetables, rocks, and so on... challenges - diplomacy check: nat 1 - I can't believe it. Go on another thread than the CO! Hem, a moment, rerolling. I think that's not the scope of this thread. Of course everyone's free to do that, I'll build the challenges thread and go on. But I don't know if I'll have the time to surf there too, so I'll just accept the challenges of people who emails me. Both the parties have to send an email stating the challenge. Don't worry about even-ness, in the case of uneven-ness the challenges might get broken, that's all. The doesn't play roll will always come first, then I'll check for pairings and challenges. Finally, challenges will be ignored in case of repeated fights: diversity is considered key in evaluating the optimization. >Here's (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=127417) the role play thread. Maybe it should be in another place than the CO board. |
| Moherajikuyx11-05-03, 05:59 AM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket Nope. A monk's unarmed strike does not qualify for it. A natural attack is something that is born by race, not by feats. Looking under Humans, there is nothing listing them as having natural attacks. Taking the improved unarmed strike feats only allows you to make 'unarmed attacks' without provoking and it's other fringe benefits. It doesn't give you 'natural attacks' (see dragon disciple). Tellish I think I agree, but then, wouldn't it be the same to say that the Stunning Fist is not a Special Attack but just a feat? I think the monks will have to gain natural attacks in other ways. I'm giving Rito the weapon focus unarmed for now. |
| SnarkHunter11-05-03, 07:06 AM | what's this now about challanges being ignored if people have fought before? I thought the whole point was to settle vendettas...for Bilo anyway... |
| Pitlords11-05-03, 07:14 AM | The problem I see is that people could use that to avoid a character. It would happen only if repeatedly happening. I'm doing the pairings. Mag, I put in your level 2 monk even if he's got two feats, one of which Ability Focus, at the condition that the feat's ignored while running. |
| Moherajikuyx11-05-03, 07:51 AM | PAIRINGS DONE! Save DC, 12. What did you expect by my Int? Magagumo and Snarky - you both had 3 fights, thanks to the new credits system. I don't have any, because I think that the roster equals two fights ran... If you are overwhelmed by time, though, give me one of your fights. CU pals! |
| Moherajikuyx11-05-03, 08:02 AM | Moderators, I've seen on some tactics that archers tend to say "if won init, step + rapid shot": well, this is wrong, to have a line of sight with no cover at all, you have to step at least three times north or south (draw a line to check). |
| Caterane11-05-03, 08:19 AM | @LLMad: :P |
| fluiddragon11-05-03, 09:06 AM | Jindl and MotherBlast I sent my tactics to you for Xaverr and Gage respectivly. Let me know if you don't get them. I have had some problems with anti spam software blocking my email to road runner addresses and Tellish didn't get my emails untill 4 days later (hotmail) -fd |
| Magagumo11-05-03, 09:55 AM | Why so he does... now why did I think he got two? (ah, he's no longer human, that's right). For whoever mods my fight, disregard Blind-fight, and instead use Ability Focus (Stunning Fist) (it's in there for a reason ;)) Hmm, have to agree with Snark, Moh, challenges were to revaulate past fights Im thinking ;) |
| Jindl11-05-03, 10:19 AM | Originally posted by fluiddragon Jindl and MotherBlast I sent my tactics to you for Xaverr and Gage respectivly. Let me know if you don't get them. I have had some problems with anti spam software blocking my email to road runner addresses and Tellish didn't get my emails untill 4 days later (hotmail) -fd Fd - I received your tactics, but they are very vague. Could you give me a more specific description of the actions you want Xaver to take? -Jindl |
| Pitlords11-05-03, 10:31 AM | Originally posted by Magagumo Why so he does... now why did I think he got two? (ah, he's no longer human, that's right). For whoever mods my fight, disregard Blind-fight, and instead use Ability Focus (Stunning Fist) (it's in there for a reason ;)) Hmm, have to agree with Snark, Moh, challenges were to revaulate past fights Im thinking ;) About the challenges, OK, just leave sometimes open the possibility of fighting with different characters. About the feat, I fear that an elf doesn't get a Special Attack, nor a monk. That feat is in the monsters' section for a reason: that the usual pcs can't get them. The Stunning Fists feat makes use of the unarmed attack, without making that a special attack. So, blindfight for that monk. Sorry I didn't tell before! I had to go through quite a lot of papers to determine this one. |
| Moherajikuyx11-05-03, 10:34 AM | Sorry, I hate it when I use the wrong id. |
| Jindl11-05-03, 11:30 AM | Snark - I have sent the Elder's tactics via private message. LLMadCow - If you can go ahead and send Lothar's tactics, maybe Snark can get an early start on the fight! Good Luck, btw. -Jindl |
| MotherBast11-05-03, 12:38 PM | OMG.... both of my fights this week are againts the worst possible draw either of my characters chould have gotten. My archer/sleeper bard has to fight a better archer who is sleep proof, and my monk, whos thing is only giving his opponit one shot to take him down, is fighting a guy whos thing is killing people in one shot. And both are owned by Mo..... If I didn't know any better I'd yell rigged.... Just kidding by the way. Not good draws for me at all though. On the upside, I am again moding Lora's fight, for the third week in a row. This almost feels like my own character now I know her so well. It will be intresting to see how she fairs now that I know Alch. Fire is a full round action to ready. I gots a lot of thinking to do on my tactics this week. I'll have to switch things up a lot..... gerr... |
| SnarkHunter11-05-03, 12:41 PM | Recieved Jindle and Cat's tactics. I'll develop my char's either tonight or tomorrow, but it will be a busy few days for me so don't expect any fights untill the weekend. |
| fluiddragon11-05-03, 02:22 PM | Jindl I sent you revised tactics for Xaverr |
| Caterane11-05-03, 05:34 PM | Received tactics from Hanz and Moon. Always glad to have them at friday because it`s my freeday. Cat`s grace I should get the copyrights on this one :D @Moh: We should link the longest and shortest fights so that everyone can view it. It is too frustrating if I have to search 100m of Guestbook to find them. Here`s the link to the Harvester vs Buttmunch fight http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1729801#post1729801 The Iron fight is too ...frustrating to search :mad: |
| KerlanRayne11-05-03, 06:05 PM | I was cheking up on Allister's last figt and the tactics say "Although Connal is a WOLF, for purposes of magic, he is considered a magical beast". Connal was his animal companion. Now I've seen debates about this on boards but I'm not sure how they turned out. Supposedly, the PHB says they are magical beast, the DMG says they are just animals. I think them staying as animals makes sense because then you can target them with spells like Animal Growth and Awakening, what do you all think? KerlanRayne |
| fluiddragon11-05-03, 06:16 PM | Personaly I think they should be considered animals. The whole situation has pluses and minuses. If they are consiered animals then you can buff them (Which seems to make sense given druids/rangers) but things like calm animals and hide from animals will work against them as well. Familliars on the other hand I would say are magical beasts. -fd |
| Jindl11-05-03, 06:57 PM | the 3.5 errata states that animal companions are still animals (it was a typo.) familiars and the paladins special mount are magical beasts. -jindl |
| Magagumo11-05-03, 07:58 PM | I hate to be blunt, Moh, but saying that the Stunning fist's "Stunning attack" (to quote) is not a special attack, is a mite arbitrary. And, the fact that they are in monstrous manual does not make them off-limits... else we wouldn't be using creatures from there... They are viable if we qualify, and any attack that requires a DC to resist is a special attack. Our characters are creatures, and attacks such as stunning fist, death attack, etc are special attacks. Also, I do believe I had Jindl's backing on this, making you the only person who has ruled it otherwise. If you could show me WoTC material that states that Ability focus cannot apply to character attacks with DCs, then please do so. But do not arbitrarily announce that I cannot use a Core feat without conferring with any other Moderator on this board. If the other MOds belive that I should not use the feat, then please state so, but do not say that being in the MM rules them out... that's just faulty logic. Edit: On a non-rant note, I have recieved tactics for Rito, Bilo, Hurtz, octavian, skar, and paul. That's verybody, and with three fights this week *sweat* I think Ill be doing one of the lower level ones tonight |
| LLMadCow11-05-03, 10:01 PM | I will be sorting out Lothar's tactics tonight and e-mailing them either tonigh or tomorrow morning depending on schedule. Right now I am out the door to handle some housing issues... |
| fluiddragon11-05-03, 10:30 PM | Butmunch vs Kelek posted. |
| Magagumo11-05-03, 11:02 PM | Rito vs. Bilo.... Wow, when two combatants each decide to throw caution to the wind, and simply do whatever they can to pound the life from their opponent.. you get an amazing two round fight. Enjoy folks, Bruno never saw it coming ;) Edit: Wow, fasts fights are popular right now, Skar and Paul are finished as well. Well, just got to get one resoponse from Octavian, and I can run that fight too (but not tonight, don't wish to tempt the die gods and recieve another 30+ fight ;)) |
| waywreth11-06-03, 07:53 AM | Description of the 9th level magic missle was great. Going to use that in my upcoming gaming session. Great fights! Someone kill that evil halfling already. |
| fluiddragon11-06-03, 09:29 AM | Complete Warrior are we going to be including this when it comes out? What are you thoughts on the matter? I personaly am torn. I like the core only thread because I don't have to own every supplement on the planet to remain compeditive in the arena, and it makes moding a fight alot easier. Plus all the core info is in the srd and I can do everything from my pc without having to open a book. (I use some of the optimized srds on my site that are cross linked throughout and makes looking up info easy.) Plus once you let in 1 book where do you draw the line? Only WotC 3.5 stuff? (And we all know about balance issues that can crop up with poorly play tested products) But on the positive side there is only so much you can do with core. Certain classes only have so many good feat choices, and only so many spells. With my current sorcerer for example Gage, I am staying away from some of the best spells because they are boring everyone uses them: Sleep, Color Spray, Scorching Ray, Fireball. It would be nice to have more options though. -fd |
| Jindl11-06-03, 11:26 AM | Recent excerpts from Rito Maya's journal: "Note to self: Don't ever RUN up to a 2d6 sneak-attacking, scorching ray-casting, halfing assassin." and Recent excerpts from Rito Maya's journal: "Note to self: Pick up RUN feat so that the I don't lose my dex bonus when I run up to the 2d6 sneak-attacking, scorching ray-casting, halfing assassin. :rofl: |
| Kukanil11-06-03, 12:14 PM | Wait what? Why wasn't I included in this weeks pairings? I posted that I was ready and my char sheet has ready in the subject. Did I miss something here? |
| Magagumo11-06-03, 01:37 PM | Hehe, that scorching ray was above avg damage, as was the MM, Bilo was just as likely to explode. The grappler would have won on his turn, as Bilo explodes in grapples. The run was the best thing he could have done, Bilo was otherwise going to bombard him with long-range. |
| Jindl11-06-03, 01:48 PM | Originally posted by Magagumo Hehe, that scorching ray was above avg damage, as was the MM, Bilo was just as likely to explode. The grappler would have won on his turn, as Bilo explodes in grapples. The run was the best thing he could have done, Bilo was otherwise going to bombard him with long-range. I disagree. Rito has excellent hide/move silently, excellent spot/listen, and just about the best saves and highest touch ac in the arena (especially combined with a potion: protect vs evil). Bilo has excellent hide, but poor move silently (due to spellcasting) and a decent ranged touch. If I'm Rito, I drink the potion: protect vs evil and sneak carefully up to Bilo (spot + listen each round). When I get close enough, I charge (no lose dex bonus, no sneak attack) and grapple. Game over. Don't ever give any rogue a chance to sneak attack by running. This is just my opinion, of course. -Jindl BTW: If Rito had bought + drank a potion: blur, he would not have suffered sneak attack damage, even when running. EDIT: While at this level, Rito is nearly guaranteed to win if he starts a grapple, regardless of what his hitpoints are. Perhaps he could soak the attack when running and still survive to start the grapple. This will not be the case once wizards start getting dimension door, as that spell can let them escape from any grapple with a successful concentration check! EDIT2: The only reason I say anything, is because I like Rito, and was pulling for him in this fight. I really thought he had a good chance to beat Bilo. Especially since he was on a roll (having just won 2 fights in a row...) |
| Sir Cridion11-06-03, 02:31 PM | Caterane, I sent Faldion's tactics. |
| Galamdring11-06-03, 03:51 PM | SnarkHunter, I have sent the tactics for the fight with The Harvester. Hope you got them... |
| SnarkHunter11-06-03, 04:29 PM | Galam-Yep got em just fine, I'll prolly run that tomorrow (after my quiz...heh heh). Jindle-Tell me about it. Look at my tactics, prepared spells, and generally outlook on fights. I was expecting a looooong drawn out game of cat and mouse. What that was, was terribly frightning! I do hope it doesn't happen again... Anywho-This issue hasn't been resolved on the voting board yet, so I'd like to press it. With a recent upswing in finances (and 2c from Bruno) Bilo would like to procure the services of a 9th level caster to cast permanency on Bilo's 5th level reduce person spell. One stipulation's, because Bilo is a greedy man; A 1 year insurrance plan vs. Dispel magic. Should the spell fail- it will be recast at no extra cost (like we've been treating sundered items basicly). Total cost for a 9th level caster and 500 xp= 450+2500=2950gp Them's the facts jack... |
| Prexx11-06-03, 04:42 PM | Could Pyre be marked as [OK] on the roster please? I believe he is ready to go. |
| Jindl11-06-03, 04:43 PM | Snark - Let's give Mo 'til Monday to announce a final decision based on the poll for permanancy+buff from another caster. Whatever the decision, I think that permanent spellbuffs will not be auto-repaired. If you want something auto-repairable, buy or make the appropriate magic item. Just my opinion. Also note, the permanency spell description says "you cast the spell you want to make permanent, then you cast this spell." Which leads me to believe that Bilo can't cast reduce person and then have the other mage cast permanency. The other mage has to cast both spells. So your total cost is 2950 (permanency)+10 (reduce person) = 2960. -Jindl @ Mo - It would be simple to mark Kern and Pyre both ready and have them fight each other. I think that both characters had tried to post [OK] before pairings... |
| Magagumo11-06-03, 04:57 PM | Huh, so blur does.. I always assumed it didn't work that way, since displacement didn't. Good times. |
| Moherajikuyx11-06-03, 05:41 PM | Heh people, Rito had to lower the bets, he's betting against himself don't you know? :D I hoped for Bilo to become invisible. And it was in Snark's tactics, as I expected. But then, Magagumo thought well to completely disregard them. Too bad. Moreover, Bilo did over the expected value in both attacks: the expected value would have spared Rito... I think that was the correct tactic. Run feat's not a bad suggestion however: it adds possibilities. Mag, and mods: don't change the tactics... At least the first turns. If a player writes it clearly, it means he's expecting something. If he's wrong, it's an error, and the retribution is in the arena! Not only you give to the character an unfair advantage, but in the unhappy case of a wrong try, you'd be accused of modifying the fight. This is not a rant, Mag, it's just for the future. Originally posted by Caterane We should link the longest and shortest fights so that everyone can view it. It is too frustrating if I have to search 100m of Guestbook to find them. U'r right... I'll do it monday at work :D (tomorrow, it's holidays for Mo, who goes where his avatar says... High on the alps, walking in the snow, with... ehm... The pointy stuff you put under the mountain shows to walk on ice...) Originally posted by Magagumo I hate to be blunt, Moh, but saying that the Stunning fist's "Stunning attack" (to quote) is not a special attack, is a mite arbitrary. And, the fact that they are in monstrous manual does not make them off-limits... else we wouldn't be using creatures from there... They are viable if we qualify, and any attack that requires a DC to resist is a special attack. Blunt? If that was blunt, then how would you define my replies to critics... Wait... I don't want to know :angel: I'd really love, as I told, to give Rito that stuff, but I feel too guilty. The reason is simply that the monk's US is not a natural weapon: it's an unarmed attack. It's not a special attack: it's an unarmed attack with a feat applied. If we consider anything a special attack, then why shall the people who designed that feat write that requisite? So, it's not me who's got to demonstrate that it's not a special attack. It's who wants it to be a special attack that has to find and quote a text that says... what you said. I didn't say that the feats are in the monster manual because they're off-limits, but simply because they are usually used only by monsters (or monstruous pcs). If they were usually used by monks too, why not put them in the phb too? Originally posted by fluiddragon With my current sorcerer for example Gage, I am staying away from some of the best spells because they are boring everyone uses them: Sleep, Color Spray, Scorching Ray, Fireball. It would be nice to have more options though. -fd Sorry, but bringing in non core stuff is a big no-go. Some reasons could be found in the unhappy decadence of the other arena. When this arena was born, there was the choice to go to another arena, a non core one. It simply died, with a lonely character builder. Other reasons regard the workload of the moderators. And there are others, around... About Gage, I didn't notice. Whoa! Great task at that: using unusual spells effectively. Gage is strong, I was looking at him to decide equipment for Curu before the pairings... And I just hoped not to encounter him! Sadly, he's destined -in my opinion - to become less and less effective in comparison to mages, as the sorcerer's only advantage in the arena - number of spells - gets nailed by the shorter and shorter fights. *edit* Snark, the majority wins, so go on and buy the reduce person until any elder dispels it... Jindl, OK I'll do that pairing, if it gets delayed it will be run during next week. |
| Caterane11-06-03, 05:49 PM | @Mo: And another suggestion. How about inserting a special post in the fights thread that signals the beginning of a new weeks fights? This way you can see which fights are from which week. Not to much of a problem but helps with the clear arragement. |
| Moherajikuyx11-06-03, 06:13 PM | Good idea Cat! Kukanil - I'm very sorry, the old date on Kern's last editing made me think he was not ready, I didn't notice that he didn't use anything in his last fight. Now he got a pairing though, so even though my error, things shall be solved :zzz: <- my brain *edit* Originally posted by Pitlords Pairings: [...] Lev. 3 Kern Tel'Kar, Kukanil vs. Pyre Ashwood, Prexx: Moherajikuyx [/B] I'll ammend not taking the credit for the extra fight :cloud9: |
| Kukanil11-06-03, 06:31 PM | Its ok. Next time I lose a fight without using anything (I fear that this may be another one of those fights. Too many nukes! ack!), I will edit it so it LOOKS like I did something. |
| Caterane11-06-03, 07:40 PM | Hanz Vonnegut vs Faldion Oathguard (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1773736#post1773736) Good night |
| Kukanil11-06-03, 07:57 PM | Tactics sent. |
| MotherBast11-06-03, 07:57 PM | Ok, tactics for Candessa and Brackin sent to Barrel and LLMC respectively. I spent two days thinking up my tactics for these two fights, and finaly decided that both would have to be left up to pure luck for me to win, sooooo with that in mind, Good luck to ME, and bestow curse on MO!!!!!!!!! And for the ONE fight I'm running this week, I have tactics for Gage, but not for the new and, as last I checked, less pyroey Lora. Speaking of me only running One fight, I know I only have 2 characters, but I actually really like Moding these fights, and I know a lot of people don't. I said I'd run three if needed, but I would like to at least run two a week, unless I say otherwise. I'm crash corsing myself on 3.5 rules. As far as the feat Ability Focus goes, the prereq is a Special Attack..... If you look on page 154 of the PHB, the following are special attacks. Aid another, Bull rush, Charge, Disarm, Feint, Grapple, Overrun, Sunder, Throw splash weapon, Trip, Turn (rubuke) Undead, and two-weapon fighting. I ask you now, would it make sense for that feat to affect these things? NO..... But the book planely says they are special attacks. So then I belive an error exists in the way the feat is worded. As a matter of fact, the feat is called ABILITY focus, not SPECIAL ATTACK focus. If we chance the wording to read ability everywhere it says special attack, then I think both stunning blows and death stikes would then qualify. Honestly, I think its those kinds of abilites the feat was ment to boost all along. After all, anyone with the stunning blows feat certanly has the ABILITY to use the feat, and an assassin has the ABILITY to use Death strike. Incedently, I think if either a monk or an assassin were listed in the MM as foes, then both of those abilites would go under the Specal Attacks section. This is just my opinion though. I just don't think that "Special Attack" is clear enough, as everything I listed above is clearly labled a Special attack in the PHB, yet most don't have set DC's. Anyway, I'm not a senior Mod, so the decisions not up to me, but maybe this will shed some light on the topic. |
| Jindl11-06-03, 08:33 PM | Bravo, Cat. Very enjoyable fight to ready. I suggest everyone stop and read the fight Cat just posted. Oh yeah, and all of my tactics are sent. I have everyones tactics except Magagumo (noticing a trend? :) ). -Jindl |
| barrel_master11-06-03, 08:49 PM | I've replaced 'Ajax' with a dwarf cleric. Just a heads up. Also, if there's another dwarf cleric out there tell me... I don't want to be unoriginal. |
| SnarkHunter11-06-03, 10:22 PM | Wow, Cat that was a stunning fight- laughed like a mad man... anywho Re: the permanancy thing-Okay no protection, so why not look for a higher level caster? 10th level caster for permancy costs 3000gp (still generally available :)), and 100gp for a 10th level reduce person. At least then the elder will need to role a 15 to dispell it. mmm. I think I'll call it worthwhile. |
| MadCowTemplate11-07-03, 12:24 AM | @ Motherbast: Lora's tactics sent. Sorry for the wait, I must confess I was a little paranoid at first. You know, when I made Lora, I said to myself, "You better hope she can stay away from mages, 'cause she has NO will save." D'oh. At least fluiddragon has the decency to avoid cliche death traps like Sleep (no offense, it is a mighty tactic after all). Hopefully this will be another interesting fight. Best of luck to Gage. May the dice gods be fair to us both. Just a short message from Lora: "I want my own color. That means gaining levels. You're gonna hafta burn fella. Nothing personal. ... now DIE!" @ MO: I would like to start moderating one fight per week. I have been gaming for about ten years. I have had some experience game mastering. I've played many games in several systems that shall remain anonymous. I've been playing 3rd edition since it came, I have GM'd it, but I tend to learn things as I use them, so I haven't memorised any large sections of the book, and I haven't made a thorough study of 3.5 yet (I do have the books, nix MM). I am however more than happy to look things up constantly. :) I haven't decided whether or not I want to make second character. It'll depend how much time I have. But I would enjoy running a fight. |
| Moherajikuyx11-07-03, 06:08 AM | :weep: No alps today, for bad weather... I'm at work... MB - sound reasoning, and good work in finding that rules. Madcow - great, and don't worry about the rules, you'll always be able to tell to yourself "Oh well, Moh did worst... And they didn't kill him (only almost)" :angel: *edit* Cat, if you needed another fan, here's one. |
| Alterlat11-07-03, 07:57 AM | Ouch! There's a record I didn't need. Still, I don't think there's much I could have done about that. Beautifully described fight though - nice work Tellish. |
| Jindl11-07-03, 08:27 AM | The odds of a nearly maxxed out critical arrow shot when your attack bonus (including range) is +6 and the defenders flatfooted AC is 13 (after winning initiative when your Init mod is +1 better) is: Win initiative 55% x Threaten on first shot 5% x Confirm Crit 70% x Max first die 12.5% x Max second die 12.5% x nearly max third die 25% = .0000751953125 or about 1 in 13300. Zorander = lucky shot. |
| Irlina11-07-03, 08:57 AM | The odds are not so bad. Some quikc&dirty maths: Winning Ini is 57.25% Threaten first shot 5% Confirm Crit 70% 3 die d8 roll 23+ 25% x 12.5% x 12.5% / 3 The 3 is for the number of possible permutations. So in total ~0.0335% or 1 in 3000. Actually, he needed only to roll a 10 on the damage roll, so the odds gets much better: blabla 3 die d8 roll 10+ 83.6% So in total ~1.68% or 1 out of 60 to make Jagath incap. with first shot. Ok, I agree, lucky shot. ;) |
| Moherajikuyx11-07-03, 09:15 AM | :bigeyes: 0.5 rounds... This is not going to stay unsurpassed for a long, long time... |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-07-03, 09:28 AM | Finished both fights. And i read the other posts before posting this, and i see others have already read the first one. I'm sorry. Wish i could have made it more entertainging. I had a decent story of vendetta and stuff worked up. As you read, only to have it all go up in smoke on the first round. Jindl, u calculated those odds based on each relying on the other. They don't. Irlina's odds are correct. The second fight, i added a bit of flavor as well. Hope Allister Swiftfoot isn't too upset. lol Tellish. *EDIT i guess i should say which BOTH fights those were. Jagath vs Zorander Tomar vs Allister |
| fluiddragon11-07-03, 10:01 AM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx About Gage, I didn't notice. Whoa! Great task at that: using unusual spells effectively. Gage is strong, I was looking at him to decide equipment for Curu before the pairings... And I just hoped not to encounter him! Sadly, he's destined -in my opinion - to become less and less effective in comparison to mages, as the sorcerer's only advantage in the arena - number of spells - gets nailed by the shorter and shorter fights. I don't know if it will make the sorcerer weaker, per say. They can still have access to the same spells as a wizards via scrolls and wands. I think that proper spell selection is crucial, and sorcerer arena strategies are going to be much different than adventuring strategies. I think that the biggest downfall is the lack of free feats at levels divisible by five. This gives the wizard a financial advantage that is significant at higher levels, combined with the scribe scroll feat. But I think that the spells on the fly is a huge advantage and unlike scrolls your spells are cast at your level. Where wizards have cheaper access to most scrolls they are generally cast at the lowest level. Metamagic on the fly might help too, depends on if they have the time not to get hosed by the full round casting time. When I designed Gage I wanted to avoid the Cliche spells. And I wanted to avoid spells that allowed a save. I figured he would know spells that were mainly offensive and leave defense upto scrolls. No reason to learn utility spells. And though the BaB sucks, touch and ranged touch spells avoid this. Plus most of the instand death spells have short ranges and its bad to get caught that close to anyone stronger. I did take magic missile even though it is cliche, its good agaist non-wizards and has decent range, and no save. I was going to chage my equipment alittle bit after clarifying the rules on touch spells holding a charge and spell completion/trigger items. I got a potion of mage armor and was going to get rid of it for a cuople more scrolls. 1 was going to be spider climb which would have come in handy against Lora, but you did the parings too fast! I was 5 min too late! Oh well. I am looking forward to seeing how a sorcerer can do in the arena though. I think that spells on the fly and alternate sorcerer strategies will be a big help. Time will tell. -fd |
| Moherajikuyx11-07-03, 10:14 AM | Mmhh, what good will metamagic on the fly bring you? You already know your enemy with the actual rules for mages, so they can memorize already the best spells. And wizards can write metamagicked scrolls. |
| Jindl11-07-03, 10:37 AM | A couple of things I noticed in the Allister vs Tomar fight: 1. "Animal Companions are considered Magical Beasts for purposes of Magic, so Hide From Animals does not work." - This is INCORRECT. The 3.5 errata is out and online at the WotC website, and it states that the magical beast line in the animal companions paragraph was a typo. Animal companions are ANIMAL type and thus are affected by spells that affect animals (like hide from animals, animal growth, charm animal, etc.) 3.5 Errata is available online and is considered core. 2. "Allister will be riding his Animal Companion, an ape named Ape." - This is allowed because Ape is a large creature and Allister is medium, and Ape is willing and able due to his status as an animal companion. However, please note that while riding Ape, the druid will suffer a -5 penalty to ride checks (for riding a bipedal creature.) This is important for the guiding by knees action that you performed several times (it becomes effectively DC 10 due to the penalties.) This can also play a factor if you get hit and need to stay in the saddle. 3. Also, Ape has a light load limit of 306 lbs. The exotic military saddle weighs 40 lbs. Allister's breastplate wieghs 30 lbs. If Allister + the rest of his gear weighs more than 236 lbs then Ape is medium encumbered. Allister's character description doesn't list his weight, but probably should. It may become a factor in the future, especially if anyone uses a Str drain spell (ray of enfeeblement, touch of fatigue, ray of exhaustion, etc.) on Ape. 3. Tellish didn't state what items were used up: Tomar used a potion: shield of faith. Allister used 2 x scroll: obscuring mist and 1 x scroll: spider climb. 4. Good job on the concentration checks Tellish! And on spotting the average flight manueverability on the Hippogryphs (which is why they can't hover.) A lot of mods would have missed those things. Good work. A bit of advice to Tomar (and anyone else who faces a summoner.) A potion of protection vs. alignment may or may not help your AC and saves, depending on the alignment of your opponent. But all of the protection vs alignment spells protect you from summoned creatures. If Tomar had drank this 50 gp potion, none of the hippogryphs, wolves, or summoned swarms would have been able to damage him. He could have waited them out and then fought only Ape and a now-out-of-spells druid. Summoners beware the protection from alignment... Congrats to the winner (it was a great strategy!) and better luck next time to Tomar. -Jindl |
| fluiddragon11-07-03, 10:37 AM | Mmhh, what good will metamagic on the fly bring you? You already know your enemy with the actual rules for mages, so they can memorize already the best spells. And wizards can write metamagicked scrolls. You can use it on any spell you have at a moments notice, could come in handy depends on the tactics and the oponent. Sure wizards can write the scrolls and its good, but it costs money to do this and, foresight. There is always going to be that scroll you wish you had the forsight/money to write but forgot or didn't hve the money. I think in most ways the wizard is alittle better in the arena than the sorcerer, but that doesn't make the sorcerer unviable. They are definietly not good for multiclassing. I'm not trying to prove they are better than a wizard, just that they are viable with good spell selection and strategy. I think they can be and when everything came out against bards and sorc. I decided to take the challage. I don't like bards so I decided to do the sorc. And I wanted to make if different than the sleep/color spray wizards out there. The singel biggest dissadvantage of a sorc. is the delayed spell aqusition. on new spell level levels the sorc is at a big dissadvantage. I was never a big fan of the sorc. as presented in the phb, mine is heavily house ruled. (d6, 4sp, wizard spell prog, enshew materials, modified spell known table to reflect earlier access. Same BaB and saves, and some flavor stuff here or there.) But at the same time I think in the arena they can be a good viable character. I think most of the sorc and bards last round advanced, lets see how they do this time. |
| Irlina11-07-03, 11:06 AM | BTW considering the Gage fight: Doesn't the "Deliver Touch Spells" -power of the familiar require 3rd lvl.? So no shocking graps by air before 3rd caster level? |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-07-03, 11:08 AM | Originally posted by Jindl A couple of things I noticed in the Allister vs Tomar fight: 1. "Animal Companions are considered Magical Beasts for purposes of Magic, so Hide From Animals does not work." - This is INCORRECT. The 3.5 errata is out and online at the WotC website, and it states that the magical beast line in the animal companions paragraph was a typo. Animal companions are ANIMAL type and thus are affected by spells that affect animals (like hide from animals, animal growth, charm animal, etc.) 3.5 Errata is available online and is considered core. 2. "Allister will be riding his Animal Companion, an ape named Ape." - This is allowed because Ape is a large creature and Allister is medium, and Ape is willing and able due to his status as an animal companion. However, please note that while riding Ape, the druid will suffer a -5 penalty to ride checks (for riding a bipedal creature.) This is important for the guiding by knees action that you performed several times (it becomes effectively DC 10 due to the penalties.) This can also play a factor if you get hit and need to stay in the saddle. 3. Also, Ape has a light load limit of 306 lbs. The exotic military saddle weighs 40 lbs. Allister's breastplate wieghs 30 lbs. If Allister + the rest of his gear weighs more than 236 lbs then Ape is medium encumbered. Allister's character description doesn't list his weight, but probably should. It may become a factor in the future, especially if anyone uses a Str drain spell (ray of enfeeblement, touch of fatigue, ray of exhaustion, etc.) on Ape. 3. Tellish didn't state what items were used up: Tomar used a potion: shield of faith. Allister used 2 x scroll: obscuring mist and 1 x scroll: spider climb. 4. Good job on the concentration checks Tellish! And on spotting the average flight manueverability on the Hippogryphs (which is why they can't hover.) A lot of mods would have missed those things. Good work. -Jindl On #1. I knew that. Didn't think i needed to clarify that. We've already discussed it here on the boards, so ppl should know by now. On #2. No ride checks needed to be made. When i ran the fight, i looked up the rules again for such occassions and would have given him the -5 for unsturdy mount. But being pidel works just as good. On #3. Yes, i'm a big fan of encumberence rules. Allister would have to have been one hell of a fat druid to overweight the Ape. On #3 (second printing). Ooops. My bad. I did think about it later. Just never got around to editing it. K, i'm outa here for the weekend. Have a good one ya'll. Also maybe Tomar should ask for another moderator. LOL. That's twice i've mod'd him and twice he's failed to roll almost anything above 10. Although, no disrespect to Tomar, i don't think it would have matter much in this fight. Tellish |
| Moherajikuyx11-07-03, 11:23 AM | Originally posted by fluiddragon You can use it on any spell you have at a moments notice, could come in handy depends on the tactics and the oponent. This is the point: the fact that wizards can memorize spells given the opponent and the fight, nulls this advantage. |
| fluiddragon11-07-03, 11:26 AM | A bit of advice to Tomar (and anyone else who faces a summoner.) A potion of protection vs. alignment may or may not help your AC and saves, depending on the alignment of your opponent. But all of the protection vs alignment spells protect you from summoned creatures. If Tomar had drank this 50 gp potion, none of the hippogryphs, wolves, or summoned swarms would have been able to damage him. He could have waited them out and then fought only Ape and a now-out-of-spells druid. Summoners beware the protection from alignment... Are you sure it works this way? I thought you had to have a prot vs the approriate alignment of the creature summoned. BTW considering the Gage fight: Doesn't the "Deliver Touch Spells" -power of the familiar require 3rd lvl.? So no shocking graps by air before 3rd caster level? Yes it does, and this was my mistake. I made the character in about 10 minutes right before pairings were out, and I read the wrong line in the familiar abilities section (it was late and I have been working 80hr weeks for 3 weeks, I should be working now:). I noticed it when I updated the charcter. (He did have a spectral hand scroll and the same strat would have worked with the scroll). I made the character fast because of all the talk about how sorc and bards were subpar characters in the arena. So if the mods want I'll mark that scroll off my sheet. -fd |
| Jindl11-07-03, 11:33 AM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket On #1. I knew that. Didn't think i needed to clarify that. We've already discussed it here on the boards, so ppl should know by now. On #2. No ride checks needed to be made. When i ran the fight, i looked up the rules again for such occassions and would have given him the -5 for unsturdy mount. But being pidel works just as good. These two things were primarily for LLMadCow to read. Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket On #3. Yes, i'm a big fan of encumberence rules. Allister would have to have been one hell of a fat druid to overweight the Ape. Just FYI: My character Jindl is listed as weighing 190 lbs (and at 6ft 1 in, thats not fat.) Its easy to have an extra 46 lbs of gear, especially if you get barding for your mount... This is something that Allister must be careful of (and LLMadCow, please list Allister's weight.) Tellish, I thought you did a good job modding (in fact, you seem to get better every week, something that I wish could be said about me.) My above comments were intended to help the players as well (especially the stuff about protection from alignment.) Have a good weekend. -Jindl EDIT: FD - Yep, protection from evil works on all summoned creatures (except for good aligned ones.) Protection from good works the same (except evil summons are unaffected). Protect from chaos/law work in a similar fashion. |
| fluiddragon11-07-03, 11:34 AM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx This is the point: the fact that wizards can memorize spells given the opponent and the fight, nulls this advantage. Not entirely. The sorc is more flexible and can react to the oponents strategy, where the wizard cannot. The wizards tactics are locked in but the sorc is not. Its more flexible. How much will this effect arena fights? I'm not sure yet. I tend to give mods flexible tactics as opposed to r1 do this r2 do this... I give guidelines more than anything else. The biggest thing I am feeling is lack of free feats and delayed spell level. I'm also trying to adapt the the uniqueness of arena tactics vs adventuring tactics. Loss of quicken spell sucks though. But I still don't think they are unviable. What I am seeing though is it may be more expensive to be a sorc. in the arena than a wizard and this may be the downfall, we'll see at higher levels. I passed up metamagic feats at 3rd so I could take wondrous item. Either way I couldn't use the feats I wanted untill atleast 4th level but I didn't want to wait to craft items untill 6th level, I'll just have to wait for metamagic |
| Magagumo11-07-03, 12:33 PM | First of all, I'd like to say there is no shame in taking Magic Missile. Only people who can't (Bruno) don't use it, beause it is automatic damage, from emdium range, that can rip apart mirror image ;). *SIgh* blasted mirror image ^_~ As for my tactics, Jindl, I see that they are due in this evening, and I still have time, though Zorander's tactics were already sent out. I will have them to you shortly... expect complicated ones to fit the massive amount of potential paths that Bruno vs. Ebelin could take (Good lord, Cat, this is going to be interesting...) Since I have gotten at least a basic feedback on Ability Focus (good response, MOh, I appreciate the time you took to write it :) ) I will suck it up and send out tactics based on Blind-fight, also shortly. Note: I have just intitiated a multi-shot game at school, based on using these Arena rules, 15th level characters and the setting of Otaria from MtG. Heh, should be good fun. |
| Jindl11-07-03, 01:46 PM | Xaver vs Marcus is posted... Like many 2nd level fights it was short, sweet and to the point. -Jindl |
| Caterane11-07-03, 02:07 PM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Cat, if you needed another fan, here's one No problem. Here`s my catalogue: http://www.catmerchandise.com/images/mimg.jpg We deliver them with our special trucks: http://www.winross.com/images2/CATgif.gif ORDER NOW!!! |
| Prexx11-07-03, 03:43 PM | Tactics have been sent for Pyre. Let me know if you have had any trouble recieving them Mo. :) |
| KerlanRayne11-07-03, 04:04 PM | @Tellish: Tomar's tactics said to only trip against ALLISTER, against all other opponents he was to attack normally. I knew he wouldn't have much of a chance tripping summoned creatues as most have four legs. KerlanRayne |
| barrel_master11-07-03, 04:11 PM | Uhhh... this took so much time 22 rounds. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1781330#post1781330 candy vs curnuger |
| Sir Cridion11-07-03, 04:29 PM | Lol, interesting fight Caterane. Too bad I lost! Darn crits :mad: ;) |
| fluiddragon11-07-03, 04:30 PM | Hey Mo looks like it is about time for Curunger to get a couple levels in monk, He seems to end up in a grapple a lot lately. Good fight. |
| fluiddragon11-07-03, 05:01 PM | MotherBlast, I sent updated tactics for Gage, please use them if you havn't started the fight yet, thanks |
| SnarkHunter11-07-03, 05:06 PM | Harvester Vs. Mara! (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1781791#post1781791) :OMG! :OMG! :OMG! :OMG! :OMG! :OMG! Mo...you're going to need to update the highest damage roster... |
| Jindl11-07-03, 05:17 PM | Wow, lots of crits this round, and its only Friday. I do have a ?... If you have an ability (like spirited charge) which allows you to do x3 damage when charging with a lance, and you get a crit (which is x3 for a lance), then shouldn't the damage be x6, because of how stacking multiples works? I think Snark calculated it at x3x3 = x9... it doesn't make a difference in the fight, but I was wondering... -Jindl |
| SnarkHunter11-07-03, 05:54 PM | I just realized the exact thing-Still far to massive for any moral god to allow but I will edit in the correct value. |
| MotherBast11-07-03, 06:09 PM | Hey LLMadCow, I sent an update on Brackin's tactics to replace a mistake I realzied I had made in the origional tactics. I will be running the Lora vs. Gage fight tomarrow, and I have recived both of your original and updated tactics. |
| barrel_master11-07-03, 06:54 PM | Concerning the lack of character builds (or the perceived lack of builds) why don't we allow Psionics? True, it's not exactly 'core' but it is in the SRD... |
| Moherajikuyx11-07-03, 08:22 PM | People, look at the fight between Curungur and the poor grappling bard... It was ridiculous. My mage could prepare the spells after knowing to be against a bard. This isn't true in any campaign. How can we test the true strength of wizos, clerics and druids if we pump them up this way? *edit*: Curungur didn't even cast mage armor :| (I forgot to write it, my bad) We'll have to wait till we set these things about balance before for sure. There's not a lack of builds by the way. There are lots of unexplored possibilities out there. |
| fluiddragon11-07-03, 09:16 PM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx People, look at the fight between Curungur and the poor grappling bard... It was ridiculous. My mage could prepare the spells after knowing to be against a bard. This isn't true in any campaign. How can we test the true strength of wizos, clerics and druids if we pump them up this way? *edit*: Curungur didn't even cast mage armor :| (I forgot to write it, my bad) We'll have to wait till we set these things about balance before for sure. There's not a lack of builds by the way. There are lots of unexplored possibilities out there. Are you thinking of house rules for bards or sorc? I can't comment on the bard class very much as I never liked it and I am very un-bardlike myself. Some things I notice about bards. The spell selection sucks. No ac buffs what so ever, they get CLW and Exp Retreat. Low AC, Low BaB no buff's ouch. I still think sorcerers are ok in the arena but bards look like they are only good for support (first time I looked at the 3.5 bard). From an optimization side here are some of the major problems I see with bards. 1. Cha is the prime stat and it has no relavence on combat. Should an arena bard take a lower Cha and put the points into combat stats, Just use skill points to keep perform up. Candy has an 18 CHA maybe a 14 CHA, and a 18 Dex would have been better, and weapon finesse and a rapier then you don't have to rely on grappling! 2. The the only thing poorer than the spell selection is the spell progression. Maybe they will get better at 4th level, and alter self. Some things about Candy that could have been better optimized. 1. Ability scores. make Cha the 2nd highest score they are a light armor wearer they should have a high dex 17-18. This dex will help with ranged attacks and ac and ref saves. Add weapon finesse at 3rd and helps with melee. 2. Bluff and improved feint. 3. Multi class 1 level of sorc. Get true strike and shield to help the ac and attacks, you can also now have access to all L1 wizard scrolls. 4. Buy a animal, dog, war pony, warhorse. Extra attacks soaks up sleeps. 5. Spend your money Candy had over 1000 gp left at 3rd level and Cur spend all but 150 of his. 6. Buy posion, and alchemical stuff. |
| Prexx11-07-03, 09:52 PM | Originally posted by Jindl If you have an ability (like spirited charge) which allows you to do x3 damage when charging with a lance, and you get a crit (which is x3 for a lance), then shouldn't the damage be x6, because of how stacking multiples works? I think Snark calculated it at x3x3 = x9... it doesn't make a difference in the fight, but I was wondering... [/B] The damage on a charge attack critical hit with a lance wielded by a person with the spirited charge feat would be base damage x5 due to the way critical stacking works. It is better if you think of multipliers more like "extra hits" and not like multipliers. The x3 crit multiplier on a lance is better thought of as 2 extra hits on a successful critical (base hit and two additional hits for a total of x3 base damage). The spirited charge feat also grants 2 "extra hits" on a successful charge attack. Thus you end up with the 1 base hit, plus 4 additional hits, or a x5 multiplier. Thus a x3 and x3 = x5, just like x2 and x2 = x3. Might sound convoluted, but I have found it is the best way to think about it. Hope this helps to clear things up. For more information on how crit stacking works consult pg 304 of the Players Handbook, under the Multiplying section. [edit] As a side note. I believe that the actual damage of the infamous blow in the Harvester vs Mara fight is actually 89 dmg. Not that it changes the outcome or anything. Here is how I arrived at that total. 24 (total of 5d8) + 45 (+9 str modifier to dmg x5) + 20 (+4 smite damage x5) = 89 And if you think that is obsene just ponder this for a little bit. Combine the deadly charge class ability of a cavalier/kishi charger, the smite ability of a paladin/cleric, power lunge feat in Sword and Fist, along with the power critical feat in Masters of the wild, and a true strike spell with power attack. I'll leave the damage to your imagination <grin>. |
| MotherBast11-08-03, 01:24 AM | About Min/Maxing Candy... #1- Cha is my prime score instead of Dex because Candy is not a melee bard. She is a caster Bard. I wanted my DC's for sleep and my future enchantments to be as high as possible. I only looked like a melee bard in this fight because my foe was sleep proof and a better archer than me. That left me with very few options. #2- Why? So I have a better chance of doing 1d6 damage with a melee weapon? Better to get my Save DC's for enchantments up to the 20s and pray apon the wealth of melee fighters in the low level brackets. #3- The one level of sorceror isen't too bad an idea, but I'm trying for a pure Bard, plus this would slow down my already slow Bard spell progression, while only adding to my offensive skills, not my main focus, which is my Bardidic enchantments. #4- I gave this concederation, but Candy also uses a lot of hide and M.S. tactics to suprise her foes. She also likes to invise and an animal would make both of these tactics much harder. #5- I didn't spend all of my money because I expected a tough fight at this level. The odds of me getting an opponit I had a good chance of sleeping quickly was less than 50%, so I saved a lot of money, expecting to use a great deal of my resorces and have to restock. Plus, If I had won, It would put a Cha buffing item in my price range next level. Its all about the spell DCs.... #6- Poison would be good, but I have an issue with using it because my character is Good. Poison always seemed like an Evil tactic to me. I know its leagel and all, just a personal issue. As far a alchimacal stuff, She has tanglefoot bags, but Alch. Fire takes to long to use, and I think I still have one T. Stone I bought with my first 1k that I haven't used yet. The Alch stuff really dosen't help me out that much. Espically since my goal is to stay 100' from my target at all times anyway. Hope that clears my choices up a little for ya. Thanks for the sugestions though. Your Bard would have done much better in the last fight, but would have lost to the fighter I won aginst at level 2. I chose to go the sleeper rought because when I created Candy melees were domanating. Now, 4 weeks later, Wizzies are much more popular, but I think enough new melees are still comming in to give me the oppertunaty to gain a few levels with Candy. I really just had no chance at winning against Mo unless I got really lucky. I just didn't. By the way, for Bard songs, they do kinda require concentration, but every round after the one the Bard starts singing on he/she may continue to sing as a free action. I can still move and fight while singing, and the only reason I would have to stop singing is to cast a spell. Humm.... well, that about covers it I guess.... Thanks for the suggestions again Flu. |
| SnarkHunter11-08-03, 02:47 AM | @prexx...i'm going to get that right one of these days... |
| MadCowTemplate11-08-03, 04:29 AM | I was thinking about the concept of jousting, and I've been reading about ride skill, mounted combat, charge, bull rush, but I can't seem to get a clear picture on how someone could intentionally knock an opponent off of their mount. I see references to making a ride check to stay mounted after taking damage, but not how much damage or if the amount has any affect on the ride check. I'm assuming that a thrown rock and a mounted charge would not have equal chances of knocking a man from a horse. In particular, I am wondering if Bull Rush could be used in such a way, and if there would be any point. |
| Caterane11-08-03, 05:28 AM | @Snark: :love: :love: :love: :bounce: :cloud9: |
| Caterane11-08-03, 05:29 AM | @Snark: :love: :love: :love: :bounce: :cloud9: Edit: Oups. Pouble Dost |
| Galamdring11-08-03, 05:32 AM | I couldn't do anything... I mean, he killed me in a single blow. No chance whatsoever. I should have bought a magical halberd :) SnarkHunter, i have a question i would like you to answer. I said in the tactics that i wanted to ready an action against his charge and since we both have reach i would act before him. There is no charging carefully. I imagine that you didn't ready the action and used the turn to drink the potion and draw the Greatsword. Oh well... Perhaps it would be better to draw the sword and run for cover... Since i didn't mentioned it in my tactics, it's understandable. I also failed to see my opponent's prepared spells, and i paid for it dearly... Better luck next time... |
| Moherajikuyx11-08-03, 05:36 AM | Madcow - IMC I did opposed ride+bab checks, difference>5: hit, difference>10: hit in the head, difference>15: hit&fall. It should be a trip attack really: you have to rule that the lance can be used as a trip weapon vs. mounted foes when mounted (I'd say with +2 too, it was designed for that); I did it that way because it wasn't a combat, and it was simpler. |
| Moherajikuyx11-08-03, 06:04 AM | Originally posted by fluiddragon Are you thinking of house rules for bards or sorc? I can't comment on the bard class very much as I never liked it and I am very un-bardlike myself. Not at all. Making the other casters spontaneous too is what hampers them: I'm likely going to make the others not spontaneous. The problem becomes that the foe shall not know what a wizard memorizes, or say bye to surprise factor... I'm thinking how to solve this. |
| Caterane11-08-03, 06:40 AM | The cool thing is: I just remembered that I`ve already read the Harvester fight yesterday ...before the Barkeep cast "Memory loss" on me :angel: Kinda double-mirth. I wanted to say something else but I can`t remember anymore. Ok, time to roll some dice :dice: |
| fluiddragon11-08-03, 08:22 AM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Not at all. Making the other casters spontaneous too is what hampers them: I'm likely going to make the others not spontaneous. The problem becomes that the foe shall not know what a wizard memorizes, or say bye to surprise factor... I'm thinking how to solve this. Since I am playing a sorcerer I would really not like loosing spont casting. It offers too great a flexibility, and I like that over the wizards preperation. I'm hesitant to suggest any changes to the classes, this is a core game after all. (dam^ now I have It's a small world after all; in my head, thanks Mo). I would also hate to have to choose my memorized spells before the pairings if I was a wizard. It degrades the strength of booth classes There are only 3 pinches I am really feeling as a sorc. 1. is the expense, to have access to more spells is more expensive. I had to modify my tactics for Gage after realizing this. A wizard in comparison would have more money as 1 they know more spells to begin with and 2 they can sribe scrolls. 2. The bonus feats. The scribe scroll is much more powerfull in the arena than in an adventureing game. MUCH more. Plus every 5th level they get a bonus metamagic/item craft feat they can use. This frees up the normal character feats a great deal and lets them focus on combat oriented feats. 3. Charisma is the main ability score and it sucks. There is no combat application for this ability score what so ever. Every other ability score has some effect on combats. These are the main things I notice about the class that makes it difficult to play and remain compeditive with wizards. The fact that my opponent knows what spells I know doesn't matter to me. I know what equipment the fighters have, I can read past fights and get an idea of how they fight I can read default tactics to get an idea of what they will do. When I fight a wizard I think what would i memorize if I was running the character. So the spont casting vs prepared casting is not the problem. I chose my known spells very carefully and tried to avoid a 1 trick pony. 1. I stayed away from the cliche spells. for several reasons. I hate doing what everyone else does. And I don't think it would allow the power of a sorc to be seen. Different tactics are needed. And you need several tricks not 1 as Candy found out. 2. I chose spells that offer no save. I only have a 17 Cha. +3 modifiers are ok, but compared to the 20 Str fighter or 20 Dex archer it does nearly nothing; and low level spells are incapable of droping most fighters in 1 hit through damage (Avoiding sleep and colorspray). I didn't go 18 Cha as the points are better spent on other abilities, so I can do something else, like archery. I also gave him a high con so he has some survivability. I chose shocking grasp as it is a great damage dealing spell, most low level fights involve fire rather than electricity so an opponent is more likely to have prot vs fire. This can be changed to a ranged spell with good range via your Familliar or Spectral Hand. And you can do other things while your familliar attacks. Monster Summoning 1; duration and monsters suck but at 3rd level it lasts long enough to give you some options. And you can act as a summoner and change your tactics totally if your other tactics aren't working or do both. You are not locked in because you can choose your tactics on the fly. Go from a touch spell tactic to a summoner tactic easily. at 3rd I chose magic missile, as the damage is ok at 3rd level, no save and decent range. Shield spell nullifies it but only wizards can cast it so use another tactic against them. I left defense upto scrolls. Most of the good buffs are low level and it is affordable. It allows me much more flexibility. If we were going to "fix" the sorcerer I would request something OTHER than changing the way they cast/prepare spells or the way wizards cast/prepare spells. Here is my wish list 1 or all of these would be great. 1. Free feats metamagic/item/spell efftecting (augment summoning, spell focus the like) If they were given at the same level wizards were given this would help a great deal. And evens out what I see as the biggest disadvantage in the arena Money. 2. Allow straight non multiclassing bard or sorc. 2-4 extra points for abilities because Cha sucks. 3. More skill points and class access to spot and listen. 4. More known spells; and for bards maybe access to some ac buffs. On all the other sorcerer sucks threads there are a number of good ideas for fixes. Here would be my suggestion. Lvl 1 1 bonus feat (leave it open, meta magic won't work for a sorc really untill 4th level, and scribe scroll is pointless, as are the other item creation feats at this level) At 5th,10th, 15th and 20th a bonus feat just like wizards. At 4th, 8th, 12, 16th, and 20th one extra spell known. 4 skill points per level they have more time to learn things than wizards. Gives them a chance to cross class skills. As in the arena Int for a sorc is a dump stat, because you have to spend points in Cha which sucks. IF you don't want to change the classes there is another thing that will help them. Mo mentioned that the higher level fights are too short to allow the sorc's greater number of spells come into play. Allow buffs with a duration of 2 hours or longer to go into the arena. This would give all the casters a boost yes, but if they have to expend spells before hand this plays to the sorc's advantage; which is more spells. Require that it be from memory. You would certainly have time before the match to cast a few spells. Make a limit of 1-3 buffs inplace before the match starts to make it fair for non casters. And all buffs start in the arena as if 1 hour of their duration has expired. This alone will give the sorc much greater flexibility, as they don't have to waste 3 rounds protecting themselves. The most common spells we would see are mage armor, invisibility, resist elements. As most of the other buffs duractions are in minutes. I don't think this is unbalancing, and if there is a limit then it won't effect the fighters as much. After all fighters can don thier armor before the match, why can't a wizard/sorc cast mage armor before the match? Characters who have armor and heavy weapons are ready to go when the wistle blows. Where casters NEED a few rounds to prepare. This puts them on even ground. We don't require 1-3 rounds for fighters to prepare, why should wizards and sorcerers need 3 rounds. In the last fight I ran if Buttmunch charged instead of taking single moves he would have won. Kelek can't stand up to melee. He needed time to prepare. Harvesters last fight illustraights this too, 2 rounds and bam dead. Xaverr's fight was the same. Yes this will help wizards too, but it will also help sorcerers as well. And if the requirement is that it comes from memory it helps sorc more as they have more spells to cast. So may be try this : You can have spells inplace that have a duration of more than 2 hours, w/a limit of 1-3 buffs inplace, deduct 1 hour of duration from each buff. This avoids modifying the classes, and in higher levels makes the sorc.'s higher number of spells come into play. Rule that it can't be used from a scroll, only memory. This simply changes the enviornment not the classes, and will start to benifit Sorc more as levels go up and fights get shorter. -FD |
| Irlina11-08-03, 09:16 AM | Having thought a little bit about the bards/sorcs topic it comes all down to the fact that in the arene only the combat strength is tested. So characters who are about combat mostly benefit from this. Of course this also means that charisma is more an dump-stat than anything "useful"- chit/chat doesn't seem to be included. I don't like altering the core rules for bards/sorcerors -giving them more feats or whatever- but what is about making charisma a little bit more important? Every arena wants to attract people and charismatic fighters (not the class, used as a generic term here) simply attract more people. So why don't we simply change the price money a little bit? Let's say 5% / charisma bonus. So the Cha 18-guy would get 20% more gold to spend. However- there shouldn't be a penalty for low-charisma builds- (else they could become violent ;) ) as I don't think this new rule should penalize old builds. However in my opinion it would a) change a dump stat to a viable stat for everyone. Everyone can use more gold to spent on equipment b) doesn't change the core rules c) makes sense I also like the suggestion allowing buffs with more than 1 hour duration. However not allowing it for potions/scrolls seems a little bit artificial. |
| Caterane11-08-03, 09:33 AM | :love: Wow! What an idea!! I myself thought about how to improve charisma in the 4th edition and its role as a drop stat here in the arena. How many non-paladin/sorcerers are out there with a high charisma? None. How many gladiators have a low constitution or dexterity below 10? None. I would suggest to vote on this. About buff spells: 1 hour seems a bit short but if we allow for some buff spells prior to combat it would make the fights more interesting. Look, the first 5 rounds are solely used to evade combat and cast buff spells. This is a very boring time but also a necessity. I know it from Ebelin: 1 - Invisibility 2 - Mage armor 3 - Shield 4 - Protection 5 - Resist elements 6 - Mirror image 7 - Endurance 8 - dead this sucks. I would like to act sooner than that. Even if I manage to get my buffs up and win this fight it surely was a boring one, at least the first few rounds and that`s the way with all spellcasters. On top of that, fighters and such can use armor and shields, so they effectively start with 2 "spells" already in place. In these times where a grappling Rito stands in front of you before you even reacted once it should be allowed to prebuff. We have to limit it though. I would suggest something like 2 hours duration. First only 1hour/lvl spells qualify and second at later levels one could take the extend spell feat to include 10min/lvl spells. Or we could limit it to all 1hour/lvl spells only. Either way I think Irlina`s idea is a great one. |
| Alterlat11-08-03, 09:47 AM | On the subject of ability focus, I came across this in the 3.5 FAQ: I noticed that the Ability Focus feat in Savage Species is listed as a general feat instead of a monstrous feat. To me, that implies that some class abilities are considered special attacks. Which qualify, if this isn’t a typo? You can use the Ability Focus feat with pretty much anything that you can use to hurt or hinder a foe and that allows a saving throw. A short list includes the monk’s stunning attack, the assassin’s death attack, and the bard’s fascinate ability. Things that don’t allow saving throws, such as sneak attacks, aren’t affected. |
| MotherBast11-08-03, 10:01 AM | I dont like the idea of alowing buffs to be in place before the fight starts. Even if limited to 3 buffs, if the wizzie choses the right 3 buffs for his opponit, he has won the fight before it starts. A lot of times the only way a melee character, or a specilized character to come to think of it, has a chance to win against a wizard is if they score the kill on the first two rounds, before the wizard can get the buff combo in place that will completly shut them down. This also wont fix the problem with the balence issues between Wizards and Bards/Sorcerors. With a much larger spell pool, and more acces to the better buffs, a wizzie is much more likely to have the crucial buffs that will hand him the fight. The issue isen't about making Sorcs/Bards stronger against everyone else, its about making them a viable choice in comparison to wizards. What advantage exists to chose a sorc/bard if you can chose wizard? In a real game, a lot of reasons exist, but in the arena, the wizard has a huge edge. Allowing prebuffs whould actually increase the edge the wizard has, not decrease it. On the other hand, this charasma mod = +5% gold idea seems to have merrit. Not only does it make a great deal of sence, it severs to give a strong reason for chosing a high charasma class. It would also benifet pallys a lot to. They don't seem to really need any help in the arena, but then, any class that gave themselves a good Cha score could benifit. This seems to be a positive across the board change that makes a lot of sence. In my own games at home, I always rule that high Cha characters subtract 5% x cha mod from the price of anything they buy, to simulate there uniques draw, social skill, and barganing power. Of course, they also get the same 5% bonus for anything they sell, so I usually make my merchents have at least a 12 cha. In my own games, low cha characters are punished with the same penalty, but I agree that should probably not be done here in the arena. It would be easy to just say the prize money for each fight has a min amount, + 5% x positive cha mod. We all know how important managining recorces is in the arena, so this makes cha a tempting stat. at level 2, winning to level three, a cha 12 player whould recive 1785gp. only 85 gold more. A cha 18 player would recive 2040. 340 more. While good, this is certanly not unbalencing. with a purse of 6000gp, the cha 12 would recive 300gp more, and the cha 18 gets 1200gp more. By this point, it is a very strong draw to hav a high Cha score, but again, not a breaking factor in the game. This idea seems to have a lot of merrit. If it goes to the poles thread, I will support this idea wholeheartedly. |
| Moherajikuyx11-08-03, 10:10 AM | Too much artificial, on my opinion; but of course I'll open the poll. About buffs, there's the option of using buffs that last for 24h+: this makes extended useful. fluid - you forget 4. delayed spell levels. We're not going to leave the core aspect of this arena to pump bards, of course. A bit of money more will not change the things radically. The problem is not about sorcs and bards, who are good as they are: their arena life well reflects the pros and cons that they have in a real campaign. Druids, clerics and wizos had a present in the arena, the practically spontaneous spellcasting. This is wrong, because it doesn't reflect the true campaign life of these characters. I have to leave spontaneity to sorcs & bards only, and to keep the memorized spells secret. We could make use of a dedicated site, or use a mailing protocol for example. This will downsize memory spellcaster and help a bit all the others, and will downsize less the specialist wizard than the generalist. |
| fluiddragon11-08-03, 10:11 AM | Originally posted by Irlina Having thought a little bit about the bards/sorcs topic it comes all down to the fact that in the arene only the combat strength is tested. So characters who are about combat mostly benefit from this. Of course this also means that charisma is more an dump-stat than anything "useful"- chit/chat doesn't seem to be included. I don't like altering the core rules for bards/sorcerors -giving them more feats or whatever- but what is about making charisma a little bit more important? Every arena wants to attract people and charismatic fighters (not the class, used as a generic term here) simply attract more people. So why don't we simply change the price money a little bit? Let's say 5% / charisma bonus. So the Cha 18-guy would get 20% more gold to spend. However- there shouldn't be a penalty for low-charisma builds- (else they could become violent ;) ) as I don't think this new rule should penalize old builds. However in my opinion it would a) change a dump stat to a viable stat for everyone. Everyone can use more gold to spent on equipment b) doesn't change the core rules c) makes sense I also like the suggestion allowing buffs with more than 1 hour duration. However not allowing it for potions/scrolls seems a little bit artificial. Awesome Idea!!! I love it. Plus it doesn't change the core rules! Wow! What an idea!! I myself thought about how to improve charisma in the 4th edition and its role as a drop stat here in the arena. How many non-paladin/sorcerers are out there with a high charisma? None. How many gladiators have a low constitution or dexterity below 10? None. I would suggest to vote on this. About buff spells: 1 hour seems a bit short but if we allow for some buff spells prior to combat it would make the fights more interesting. Look, the first 5 rounds are solely used to evade combat and cast buff spells. This is a very boring time but also a necessity. I know it from Ebelin: 1 - Invisibility 2 - Mage armor 3 - Shield 4 - Protection 5 - Resist elements 6 - Mirror image 7 - Endurance 8 - dead this sucks. I would like to act sooner than that. Even if I manage to get my buffs up and win this fight it surely was a boring one, at least the first few rounds and that`s the way with all spellcasters. On top of that, fighters and such can use armor and shields, so they effectively start with 2 "spells" already in place. In these times where a grappling Rito stands in front of you before you even reacted once it should be allowed to prebuff. We have to limit it though. I would suggest something like 2 hours duration. First only 1hour/lvl spells qualify and second at later levels one could take the extend spell feat to include 10min/lvl spells. Or we could limit it to all 1hour/lvl spells only. Either way I think Irlina`s idea is a great one. This would make the fights run quicker and give a more interesting fight rather than: run away & buff, run away & buff, run away & buff. This is boreing to run, takes alot longer (all the hide,spot, movesilent,listen rolls), and is boring to the spectators. There should definietly be some limits so that it is not abused, but it would make the fights more interesting. A side benifit for all us mods would be quicker fights that are easier to run. After moding Kelek the last 2 fights characters who avoid the combat for awhile take alot longer to run. If combats beginings could be sped up it would make the fight more fun to mod, and maybe we wouldn't mind moding another fight or two if they were going quicker. The main reason I prefer to mod 1 fight is that some of them can take over 3 hours to mod. If we can get right to the combat then it would ne more fun for everyone. And there are quite a few characters who have at least 1 spell caster level. If this idea flies we will just need to think of reasonable limits to place so the casters don't dominate. I think there should be a upper limit of buffs allowed and a duration limit to exclude the 1 min/ level spells. -fd -fd |
| Moherajikuyx11-08-03, 10:19 AM | The fact that fighters use shields and armor doesn't prove anything: they do in the campaigns too, while wizos have to buff before fights. This thread tests the real viability of characters, before the power level. *edit* I just did a recount of the polls... :( The permanency thing is stuck at 50% 50%, the ECL3 thing is at 50%+1 for the yes... I have to ask: who would use those rules? I wouldn't add a rule only for a single person, there are already a lot that scare people from reading this thread. |
| fluiddragon11-08-03, 10:54 AM | I would not use the permanency thing. Too expensive and too easy to have dispelled. I would not do an ECL 3 unless I were starting a character at 3rd level. The LA2 and even the LA1 monsters take too much of a hit in either hit points for a melee character or a spell levels for a caster. I really do like the idea of adding 5% to the pot for each CHA bonus. It makes sense, doesn't modify the core rules, and helps off set the extra expense sorc. face. I think this should be put to a vote. I'm not sure what to do about prepared vs spontaneous casters. Bards just seem ill suited to the arena unless they use some waky tactics. I don't really see a problem vs the wiz and sorc though. With proper planning a Sorc in the arena can switch tactics on the fly. A wizard locks in those tactics before the match starts. They both have equal access to scrolls. This does tip the balance slightly in the wizards favor. I don't think sorc and bards are equal in this. After looking over the class I just think bards don't work so well in the arena. But Sorc can. I have 4 strategies I can run with Gage, not including scroll use. Being able to swtich on the fly is nice. I couldn't switch like that as a wizard, or not switch as well. The wizards choice is locked in. They can't change without useing resources. The Sorc can. If gage doesn't work out I might do another to use the lessons I learned with him to improve upon the idea. I think Gage is a strong character, and has solid tactics. He is not invincible and I can see most of his wins costing some serious cash. But I don't feel like he is short changed in any way. I'd love the wizard bonus feats, and I hate having to put points in CHA. The delayed spell levels hurt, but its liveable. The toughest would be fighting a pure wizard on new spell levels. Tough but not impossible. Not enough where I think it warrents a change in the rules. -fd |
| Jindl11-08-03, 11:02 AM | Wow, lots of ideas floating around. Re: This idea to bards suck. Wrong. They don't suck. Just play a bard like a bard. He/she is not a wizard, not a caster. They're not archers, or fighters. What they are is a skill-based character. They're con artists, sneaks and tricksters. And although a rogue uses similar skills to set up a sneak attack, a Bard can use deception to set up a Use Magic Device attack or simply use spells from his own list. For example: Turnip the Test Bard has a hide modifier (when buffed with 2 spells and a potion) of +34. Nobody at his level in this arena will have a chance to see him. He can take as long as he wants to position and prepare. He can cast ventriloquism, lullaby, sleep, and still remain hidden because his voice is "over there". He can even use bard song through ventriloquism to gain its benefits while remaining hidden. Oh, and when he gets you in position, he can use his +13 UMD to unleash scorching ray, enervation, or whatever other cool scrolls I buy for him. Bards are scary. I'll continue to demonstrate this as I reactivate Turnip next week. @Prexx - Thanks for the help on multiple stacking...from what you said I think the math formula is (Multiple1 + Multiple2 + Multiple3 ... + MultipleX) - X = total Multiplier. @Galamdring - After reading the Mara fight, I thought about this readied action tactic. The problem was that Mara didn't have time. She had to draw a new weapon (move action) and if she didn't drink the potion she wouldn't have the reach to interrupt the charge anyway (standard action), which means she had no actions left to ready. Perhaps if she had moved to cover, meaning the Harvester had to reposition to set up a direct charge, then she might have bought herself an extra round = enough time to ready. One other idea: instead of a magic halberd, you can just get oil of magic weapon. @Alterlat - Hey, good job finding that in the FAQ. I knew I had read that somewhere, but couldn't remember where. Good job! Re: Charisma and purses. If I thought low charismas were a problem, then Irlina's idea would be a great way to fix it. But I don't think we have a problem with Charisma. There are at least 4 classes that heavily depend on it (Bard, Blackguard, Paladin, Sorceror). Of these, the paladin is obviously successful in the arena. The bard will be, just give Turnip, Ralin, and Candy a little time (FYI, a sleeper wizard would have fared no differently in the fight that Candy lost...) And I think the sorceror is a powerful option as well. Is Charisma is a dump stat for some characters, yes. But so is Int (look at the orc/half orcs) or Str (look at our casters) or Dex (look at the two highest level characters in the Arena - Jindl and Moon-moon both have low Dex's) or Wis (Lothar). The good news for classes that depend on Charisma is that very, very few effects can damage Charisma. Most ability score effects target Str, Dex, or Con. So you have a much better chance of keeping your abilities than a spring attack fighter / or an archer / or a power attacker... etc. I guess this is an example of "If its not broke, don't fix it." And I don't think its broke. Especially since the people complaining are not the ones who have high charisma characters. The players with the paladins and bards seem to be okay with how charisma works. Re: Pre-buffing: This is a bad idea and I am totally against it. Part of tactics and the fight, is trying to get your buffs in place while preventing your opponents from setting up theirs. This is an interesting and important part of fights and character strategy. Negating other peoples buffs is part of why my druid has been successful (see the fights against Bilo, Rito, Ebelin, etc.) Jindl makes a living by thwarting his opponents attempts to buff. But when you open up pre-buffs, this all goes away. And I think that is a very bad idea. Re: Preparing spells before pairings. Don't change how it is now. It is fine for wizards/druids/clerics to prepare spells after knowing their opponents. I have seen no evidence to convince me that this is a problem. Not broke, don't fix it. Wait for more evidence before making any decisions about this. Let Gage, Turnip and the other spontaneous casters prove their skill (I think you'll eventually see the power of picking your spells each round as opposed to before the first round.) -Jindl |
| Moherajikuyx11-08-03, 11:34 AM | Originally posted by fluiddragon With proper planning a Sorc in the arena can switch tactics on the fly. A wizard locks in those tactics before the match starts. I feel that the spell switching, though, is hampered by the fact that who runs the fight isn't who designed the character: so, he probably doesn't know what spell to choose. It could even be worst than having the prepared spell, which will be, if not optimized for the particular instance, evenly solid. |
| Moherajikuyx11-08-03, 11:53 AM | About prebuffing anything, yes that's quite out. There's the option of 24h+ lasting spells already. I thought to down the requirement to 16h+ spells instad: 16 hours should be about a full adventuring day. This means that a 11 lvl wiz might come in the arena with an extended mage armor (16.5 hours). That's quite similar to a campaign normal setting: what wizard doesn't an extended mage armor every morning? It also solves the complain that the fighter can wear his armor while the wizard can't do his buffs. Note that this rule is under test: as soon as we have wizos/clerics/druids testing it, we'll decide if it's not too strong. |
| fluiddragon11-08-03, 12:14 PM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx I feel that the spell switching, though, is hampered by the fact that who runs the fight isn't who designed the character: so, he probably doesn't know what spell to choose. It could even be worst than having the prepared spell, which will be, if not optimized for the particular instance, evenly solid. This has to be taken care of in the tactics. You can use a flow chart, or other methods to get accross the desired actions. All characters face missunderstandings in tactics or a mod running the char in a way it wasn't intended. When Xaver adn Cur met at first round Xaver was trading arrows with a rapid shot guy while enlarged. He was melee and had a bow for emergencies, but I wasn't clear enough in my tactics. This isn't a character or a class problem If you have different tactics for differnt senarios you have to communicate it to the mod and accept whatever choices he/she makes. Will the mod make the best decision for the character maybe, maybe not. We are all power gamers here and unless a mod is outright cheating or blateantly favoring a character its not an issue. There will always be regrets that things were run differetnly if you loose. But I don't think this is a problem, with Sorc. Like Jindl said if it aint broke don't fix it. Maybe this should be a vote to see if the majority of the posters feel there is a problem with spont vs prepared casters. -fd edit The Sorc. also choose his spells. Maybe not for that particular fight be he still choose them. If he picks bad spells thats the players fault, if you supply bad tactics thats the players fault. If a mod disregards the players tatics totally then we have a mod problem. Example if Gage goes against a wizard I know knows Shield and I tell the mod not to bother with magic missile and all the mod does is shoot magic missiles at the shielded wizard this is a problem with the mod not the class. If I go against a electricity protected, shielded, Prot from evil/good wizard with a 25 AC Gage is up the creek. Not much he can do. All my spells are nullified. I have to find another way to beat him, or loose. |
| Moherajikuyx11-08-03, 02:28 PM | Originally posted by fluiddragon Like Jindl said if it aint broke don't fix it. Maybe this should be a vote to see if the majority of the posters feel there is a problem with spont vs prepared casters. Yes, but I feel that: - it's broke - the judgment of many could be unbalanced by the fact that they're playing a prepared spellcaster (there's a lot more druids, clerics and wizos than bards and sorcs) So this could be a strong case of unilateral decision need. Keep in mind that I have a wiz and a cleric, so I would be judging against myself. Moreover, it's not a problem of spontaneous vs. prepared, but of more correct simulation of normal campaign spellcasting. |
| MotherBast11-08-03, 03:17 PM | Ok, I have ran the Lora vs. Gage fight. It lasted over 20 rounds, but it was as good as over on round 2. Two issues in this fight I had a problem with. The first has been discuessed before. Gage used Rope Trick. While he didn't try anyting cheesy like sitting in in and waiting till Lora starved to death, once he was inside, and Lora had no way to find the entrence, or get in it even if she had a see invis scroll, the fight was as good as done. Lora had absolutly no way to fight Gage once he was inside the Rope Trick. This tactic will be even more explotable as more powereful "extradimensional space" spells become available. I belive a decision about spells like this was "put off untill it becomes relivent." In this fight, it was. While I know these spells are legel, they don't seem to fit in to arena combat. I don't have any kind of fix for them at all though besides a flat out ban for them, and since as of yet, they haven't been baned, Gage made good use of the spell in this fight. The second issue is when holding a charge, and then casting a scroll.... Gage's tactics had him casting the shocking grasp spell on his Hawk, and then a chill touch scroll, which acording to his tactics would not only not disapate the scroll since it wasen't a "spell" but a "spell completion" item, but that it would also allow the hawk to use two touch attacks at the same time, since one was from a scroll. Using that logic, 5 scrolls of shocking grasp could be cast to allow 5 touch attacks at once..... I looked into this and on pages 237 and 238 of the DMG it says using a scroll is = to casting a spell. So for this fight I rulled that once Shocking grasp was cast, then if Gage had cast any more spells than the SG would have dissapated. The decision had little effect on the final outcome of the fight, but I wanted to know what the rest of the Mods thought about this issue. I will begin posting the fight now. It might take a while to get finished. |
| fluiddragon11-08-03, 03:26 PM | I was concerend with the issue of using scrolls and dischargeing touch spells. I asked about it and spell competeion and spell trigger items don't discharge it. I'll find the page number it was on if interested. I figured rope trick would only work once after that everyone would do it or it would be banned. (I wouldn't of had her starve to death I would have come out to fight if she killed the bird.) If I had more than 1 invisibility I would have come out and used spectral hand and chill touch while the hawk attacked. It was a good tactic but I am betting it will be banned, but it is a way for Sorc to bring thier greater number of spells into play :D. And I admit it was a cheasy tactic. But at least an original cheesy tactic. Ummm the power of cheese. -fd |
| Moherajikuyx11-08-03, 03:46 PM | Mh, people in an arena are going to say bye and never be viewed again if given the chance. I guess the organizers will have to ready dimensional anchors, and anything appropriated to costrict the gladiators in this dimensional space. |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-08-03, 04:21 PM | Originally posted by MotherBast I looked into this and on pages 237 and 238 of the DMG it says using a scroll is = to casting a spell. So for this fight I rulled that once Shocking grasp was cast, then if Gage had cast any more spells than the SG would have dissapated. The decision had little effect on the final outcome of the fight, but I wanted to know what the rest of the Mods thought about this issue. I will begin posting the fight now. It might take a while to get finished. You made the correct choice. I ran into the same problem and even casting from a scroll, your held charge is discharged. On another note.... cut/paste from Lothar's horse. Heavy Warhorse - Grim - One of the ugliest, meanest looking horses in the arena. Grim spits at people and has been known to kick small children in the face. ROFLMAO....i busted a gut and neerly pee'd myself when i read this. Nice flavor. Tellish |
| MotherBast11-08-03, 04:43 PM | Ok, fight posted. I dont think Flu will mind my ruling aginst his being able to use scrolls and hold the charge after reading the fight and seeing how little it would have mattered. I hated seeing Lora put into this prediciment, because after Rito she is my favorit fighter in the arena. After running this fight, I would now support any decision to ban or restrict the use of extradimensional spaces. It was a good tactic though Flu. As I said, by round 2 you had won the fight. Lora really had no way to kill your bird, as she had no melee weapons, and both slings and alch stuff was too slow to stop it. |
| fluiddragon11-08-03, 04:56 PM | Well like I said it was a tactic that would work only once. No probs on the ruling with the scrolls. I'll have to make sure gage gives the crowd a good show next time. I'll cme up with some new unortodox tactics for the next fight. I almost feel bad winning with such a cheezy move. Almost. But not quite, it was a valid tactic. Good rulings though sorry you had to run such a boring fight. 2nd level spells hu rah! -fd |
| Jindl11-08-03, 05:48 PM | Re: Extradimensional spaces/movement I think that a total ban is too much. Perhaps we should install a limited duration... It takes the arena wizards 10 rounds to gate the combatant back into the arena. Thus a rope trick, ethereal jaunt, etc can only benefit a character for 10 rounds. If you stay out beyond the 10 rounds you automatically lose (because when they Gate you back, you die...) Of course a character could pop back in after 9 rounds, and then back out on round 10, but at least his opponent gets a chance to spot him and counterattack... This way, such tricks are usable without being out of control. What do you guys think? -Jindl |
| MotherBast11-08-03, 06:01 PM | How about a rule that leaving the arena in any way is a forfit. This would also handle futre issues like Telaport and Demenional traval spells, and all the extradimensional space spells. Sepreate dimentions certanly seem to qualify as out of the arena. |
| Jindl11-08-03, 06:03 PM | Teleport, dimension door, and Ethereal Juant are all great mobility spells that do have a place in the arena. We should not ban them. What we should do is prevent casters from using these effects to "not fight". That's why I suggested the 10 round count-out... -Jindl |
| MotherBast11-08-03, 06:07 PM | I was not suggesting the telaport spells be baned, just that they not be alowd to telaport outside of the arena, like after setting up a super huge flood by oppening a gateway to the plane of water and letting it all flow out and then simpling tellaporting away while your opponit drowns or anything crazy like that. |
| Jindl11-08-03, 06:16 PM | A question about the Lora fight. Why didn't she color spray the hawk? She had been waiting like 10 rounds to do it, and its not affected by mirror image? The hawk had just touched her, and was right next to her. Why didn't she color spray it (knocking it unconscious) and then CDG it. This would force Gage out of the rope trick and make him fight (not to mention he's already used all those buffs on his now dead familiar.) I just don't get it. Using your familiar to attack while you hide in a rope trick is a really foolish tactic. Gage should consider himself lucky that his bird wasn't cooked and he wasn't forced to come out of the trick and fight Lora himself, especially since he had already cast all his spells on the bird. Any melee-ist would have killed the bird with AoO's. Any caster would have killed the bird with spells. I don't know why Lora didn't color spray it (she would have probably won the fight if she had...) -Jindl |
| Moherajikuyx11-08-03, 06:18 PM | That's out of the spirit of an arena, on my opinion. BTW, Kern Tel'Kar, Kukanil vs. Pyre Ashwood, Prexx posted. Strange fight... *edit* darn u'r fast ;) That is the possibility of accessing extradimensional spaces. I don't know those spells too well... We have to do a rapid check of everyone. |
| fluiddragon11-08-03, 06:31 PM | Originally posted by Jindl A question about the Lora fight. Why didn't she color spray the hawk? She had been waiting like 10 rounds to do it, and its not affected by mirror image? The hawk had just touched her, and was right next to her. Why didn't she color spray it (knocking it unconscious) and then CDG it. This would force Gage out of the rope trick and make him fight (not to mention he's already used all those buffs on his now dead familiar.) I just don't get it. Using your familiar to attack while you hide in a rope trick is a really foolish tactic. Gage should consider himself lucky that his bird wasn't cooked and he wasn't forced to come out of the trick and fight Lora himself, especially since he had already cast all his spells on the bird. Any melee-ist would have killed the bird with AoO's. Any caster would have killed the bird with spells. I don't know why Lora didn't color spray it (she would have probably won the fight if she had...) -Jindl Actually I used scrolls for the buffs and I had extras. I would have used exp retreat spectral hand and shocking grasp / chill touch to do a similar tactic. And would have been buffed. Plus the bird had an insane AC I was willing to take the risk. +10 ac and mirror image with the first attack invisible, I figured the bird would be ok. As far as the dimentional stuff, I'll stay out of this as it wouldn't be approiate for me to comment. I'll vote though if it is put to a vote. I don't think teleport or dimmention door is the same as dimmentional spaces and shouldn't be hindered. (If you teleport outside the arena you automatically loose) But they are great ways to move around in the areana |
| Jindl11-08-03, 06:40 PM | Originally posted by fluiddragon Actually I used scrolls for the buffs and I had extras. I would have used exp retreat spectral hand and shocking grasp / chill touch to do a similar tactic. And would have been buffed. Plus the bird had an insane AC I was willing to take the risk. +10 ac and mirror image with the first attack invisible, I figured the bird would be ok. Spectral hand cannot cross the rope trick opening (no spell effects can...) So Gage would have to come out in order to continue to fight. As for the birds AC and mirror image, they would have been no protection to color spray. And though Gage may have had more scrolls to buff himself, the cost expenditure would just keep growing... Rope trick did not guarantee your victory. Lora could have easily killed the bird and forced you out of the trick. Then its back to a normal fight. -Jindl EDIT: My point is that your tactic, although clever, was very risky. Rope trick (and any hiding spells) are better used as safe places to buff, much like a clerics sanctuary spell. The problem is the ultra long duration a rope trick can have. But imagine if your opponent can see invisiblity. Suddenly your rope trick may become your grave as your opponent merely flies up to the portal enters it, and gives you the beating of a lifetime. Or merely casts dispel magic on it, dumping you unceremoniously on the ground. Give me some time and I can think of ways that pretty much any character can make you regret entering the trick... But seriously, I think that using rope trick to buff is fine, using it for cover is problematic, and that any spell which takes you out of the arena should have a 10 round count-out attached. -Jindl |
| fluiddragon11-08-03, 06:48 PM | He would have come out of the trick buffed and ready to do combat. I do admit though of not thinking about the bird color sprayed I was worried about the magic stones. I was going to edit the items I had but missed the deadline. Oh well. The cost would indeed go up. As it was it was pretty expensive. Lora looked to be a tough opponent for him, and I wasn't too happy with the scroll selection I had but was stuck using it. So I had to pull out the stops. Oh well. She had mobility and good range. |
| SnarkHunter11-08-03, 07:24 PM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx About prebuffing anything, yes that's quite out. There's the option of 24h+ lasting spells already. I thought to down the requirement to 16h+ spells instad: 16 hours should be about a full adventuring day. This means that a 11 lvl wiz might come in the arena with an extended mage armor (16.5 hours). That's quite similar to a campaign normal setting: what wizard doesn't an extended mage armor every morning? It also solves the complain that the fighter can wear his armor while the wizard can't do his buffs. Note that this rule is under test: as soon as we have wizos/clerics/druids testing it, we'll decide if it's not too strong. Hey Mo: if we go with this rule then Moon-moon can enter with his mount next level. He summons it for 2 hours for every paladin level, so yeah, 16 hours. Just FYI. I am incredibly in favour of this idea of course :D. |
| Magagumo11-08-03, 07:29 PM | The 3.5 FAQ!! That's where I saw the listing on Ability Focus :love: *Sighs* Really sorry to my mods, I haven't stopepd moving from Friday morning till now, am I am about to go see a play on feminism *sweat* I promise you tactics tonight, Jindl, even if I don't sleep to get them writeen ^_~ In all seriousness, they're getting there, and will be to you hopefully by around 1030-11 EST 16 hours?? Also love!! I approve Moh, wholeheartedly. |
| Jindl11-08-03, 07:29 PM | Hmm. Saturday night and still no tactics for Bruno, eh Magagumo? Please try to get them to me, I want to run the Ebelin vs Bruno fight... -Jindl EDIT: Simultaneous posting... cool. A play on feminism? I hope it doesn't have the word "monologues" in its title. :) |
| MadCowTemplate11-08-03, 07:37 PM | Sayyyy, Gage isn't secretly a Bard disguised as a Sroceror is he?:) Nootch—seriously though, that was just patheticly effective. Amusing once, but I really don't think we should let people go around doing that. Nice work FD, but ... There shall be another time! Bump-bump-bummm!! In other news, I never bothered to fully read what a Paladin's mount really is. I'm sorta impressed and am considering a strait Paladin. Question: Can a rider make a quick dismount (free action), take a 5' step, and perform a single attack, at the end of a mount's movement? What if the mount were double move or running? |
| Sir Cridion11-08-03, 07:37 PM | Lol, Caterane, that was a great backstory for the fight. But, it didn't exactly follow Faldion's backstory. I've changed his past to reflect that, so it all works. Anyways, Snarkhunter, I hope you don't mind, but Faldion's new story now sort of plays off of Hanz's. Not that the RP component really matters much here I guess :) |
| Prexx11-08-03, 08:14 PM | Hmmm, I'm starting to understand why so many wizards go with a "sleeper" build. I have been doing my best to avoid the cliche, but it seems like that is pretty much the only option. Especially with the large prevalence of melee/cleric builds. At low levels I simply cannot deal out enough damage with my spells to kill someone. And even if I do lay out enough damage, it takes me so long to deal it out, and it only takes a single hit for a melee character to drop me. Whereas with sleep, it's a 1 shot death spell. If I land it, the fight is over. I admit, I'm relatively new to the arena scene, but these have been my observations so far. It's pretty tough to come off of two straight losses. It's especially frustrating considering that I was so close to winning both of the fights, and then I get whacked right at the end. I thought that my tactics were fairly sound, but maybe I'm missing something. Anybody got any ideas for ways I might be able to optimize my performance? I'm really trying to avoid going with a stereotypical sleeper. |
| Prexx11-08-03, 08:14 PM | Oops, it double posted for some reason....sorry bout that. |
| Draloth11-08-03, 11:43 PM | Question: how exactly do I enter my character in a fight? |
| SnarkHunter11-09-03, 12:27 AM | @draloth: Announce your interest here-natch-and you'll be added to the roster ~Monday whenever Mo updates. @Cridion: word. @mad: First of all, yeah full on Paladin is pretty fun ;). Second I don't think the quick dismount would work that well-from the SRD, If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack. So you can't get into melee on the very first round...unless you're mount is really fast. |
| Kukanil11-09-03, 12:32 AM | I updated Kern with the win. Pyre didnt work like i thought he would. I was expecting cast spell, move back 30 feet, cast spell, move back 30 feet. Since the most I could move in a round is 80 feet, it would take me a while to get there. Also, those two misses were really lucky for me. Those scorching rays would have killed me. Someone check Kern for me? I think everything is legit, and if it is, Ready |
| sshuit11-09-03, 12:33 AM | Originally posted by fluiddragon I was concerend with the issue of using scrolls and dischargeing touch spells. I asked about it and spell competeion and spell trigger items don't discharge it. I'll find the page number it was on if interested. -fd I'd have to disagree based on PHB Pg.176. Touch spells and holding the charge - In most cases if you don't discharge a touch spell on the round you cast it, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can make touch attacks round after round. If you cast another spell the touch spell dissipates. DMG Pg.238. A spell successfully activated from a scroll works exactly like a spell prepared and cast the normal way. And furthermore PHB Pg.53 If the master and familiar are in contact at the time the master casts a touch spell, he can designate his familiar as the toucher. The familiar can then deliver the touch spell just as the master could. As usual if the master casts another spell before the touch is delivered, the touch spell dissipates. |
| Kukanil11-09-03, 12:40 AM | The one way I could see a fimilar having two things on it would be: master draws potion, feeds potion of Chill Touch to Bob the Cat. Then Master casts Shocking Grasp on Bob the Cat. Would that work? |
| MotherBast11-09-03, 12:45 AM | Concerning why I didn't have Lora color spray the bird. She only had one color spray prepared, and her entire tactics relied on her using it on Gage. She never new he was using rope trick, and since it was not in her tactics at all, using it on the bird would have been Mod metagaming. It would have certanly been the best option, but going by Lora's tactics, it wasen't even conciderable. Lora always thought Gage was just hideing, as she never had a reason to think different. Her tactics were based on finding Gage and then using her one and only color spray. When I run fights, I don't alter tactics, period. |
| Pitlords11-09-03, 04:35 AM | |
| Moherajikuyx11-09-03, 04:37 AM | Eh eh! Have a good ride with that palamount :D Anyways, if anyone comes out with some broken buffs, we'll void that rule. That rule helps the prepared casters, though... I'll use it as biscuit to make them less bitter for the lost spontaneity :) Originally posted by Prexx Hmmm, I'm starting to understand why so many wizards go with a "sleeper" build. Don't take it bad! I was betting on you at that point, but you did an attack roll <6 two times in a row, and never hit with the bow. A single hit would have killed him. Originally posted by Alterlat On the subject of ability focus, I came across this in the 3.5 FAQ Rito's going to do as much damage as a greatsword in grapple... Drool... Drool... |
| Caterane11-09-03, 07:39 AM | Testing something. Just skip this post Skymoon.., 1/60 hp, Faery fire 12/70, entangled, prone, stunned, enfeebled Jindl........, 66/66 hp, lost all gold and equipment permanently, turned into a female Oh and don`t concern yourselfs with the conditions. I`ll explain them during the fight :D Skymoon, 1/60 hp, Faery fire 12/70, entangled, prone, stunned, enfeebled Jindl, 66/66 hp, lost all gold and equipment permanently, turned into a female ..... Skymoon.., 1/60 hp, Faery fire 12/70, entangled, prone, stunned, enfeebled Jindl........, 66/66 hp, lost all gold and equipment permanently, turned into a female ..... Skymoon.., 1/60 hp, Faery fire 12/70, entangled, prone, stunned, enfeebled Jindl........, 66/66 hp, lost all gold and equipment permanently, turned into a female ..... Skymoon.., 1/60 hp, Faery fire 12/70, entangled, prone, stunned, enfeebled Jindl........, 66/66 hp, lost all gold and equipment permanently, turned into a female ..... Skymoon.., 1/60 hp, Faery fire 12/70, entangled, prone, stunned, enfeebled Jindl........, 66/66 hp, lost all gold and equipment permanently, turned into a female ..... Skymoon....., 1/60 hp, Faery fire 12/70, entangled, prone, stunned, enfeebled Monk-bane.., blabla Jindl............, 66/66 hp, lost all gold and equipment permanently, turned into a female Nox............., blablabla Yep. That`s the one. Clear arrangement. You know, I AM lawful |
| Moherajikuyx11-09-03, 07:40 AM | Female? And why not ..., drunk for displeasure :angel: |
| fluiddragon11-09-03, 08:33 AM | Question on long duration buffs: Is this legal: Cast one of the touch spells that don't have a duration before the match as it's duration is instantaneous, and lasts untill an attack is made. Would this be allowed? As it technically has an indefinite duration |
| Jindl11-09-03, 09:02 AM | Re: Potions + Touch spells - Drinking a potion to cause a magical effect does not discharge or dismiss the touch spell you are holding. However, Kukanil, in your example, you could simply cast chill touch on the familiar then cast shocking grasp. Chill touch (and produce flame, for that matter) are not touch spells in that they have a duration and allow multiple touches. They are not charges to be held indefinetly like an inflict wounds or a shocking grasp. Feel free to stack all the chill touches and produce flames that you want. Originally posted by MotherBast Concerning why I didn't have Lora color spray the bird. She only had one color spray prepared, and her entire tactics relied on her using it on Gage. See Mohera - If Lora had been a spontaneous caster (and thus able to color spray more than once) then she could have reacted to the birds attack, and likely would have won the match. This is a perfect example of how spontaneous casting helps a sorc/bard. They can react to unexpected developments, allowing them to have more versatile tactics... :) -Jindl EDIT: Got your Tactics Magagumo. Bruno vs. Ebelin is under construction ... |
| Caterane11-09-03, 09:58 AM | Question: If - let`s say a paladin :rolleyes: - stands in the middle of an icestorm (cast by a druid :rolleyes: ) and wants to cast a spell or summon his mount what is the concentration DC? Is it 10+damage dealt? Is it 10+spell level+damage dealt? Is it Distracting spells save Dc? Err... this has, of course, nothing to do with the fight :rolleyes: |
| Jindl11-09-03, 10:08 AM | Check the SRD under concentration skill. "Check: You must make a Concentration check whenever you might potentially be distracted (by taking damage, by harsh weather, and so on) while engaged in some action that requires your full attention. Such actions include casting a spell, concentrating on an active spell, directing a spell, using a spell-like ability, or using a skill that would provoke an attack of opportunity. In general, if an action wouldn’t normally provoke an attack of opportunity, you need not make a Concentration check to avoid being distracted. If the Concentration check succeeds, you may continue with the action as normal. If the check fails, the action automatically fails and is wasted. If you were in the process of casting a spell, the spell is lost. If you were concentrating on an active spell, the spell ends as if you had ceased concentrating on it. If you were directing a spell, the direction fails but the spell remains active. If you were using a spell-like ability, that use of the ability is lost. A skill use also fails, and in some cases a failed skill check may have other ramifications as well. The table below summarizes various types of distractions that cause you to make a Concentration check. If the distraction occurs while you are trying to cast a spell, you must add the level of the spell you are trying to cast to the appropriate Concentration DC. If more than one type of distraction is present, make a check for each one; any failed Concentration check indicates that the task is not completed. Concentration DC ................. Distraction 10 + damage dealt .............. Damaged during the action Distracting spell’s save DC ... Weather caused by a spell ..." (emphasis mine) From this I would think that you would make two concentration checks, one for the damage dealt and one for the weather caused by the spell. Remember to add the spell level (for the spell he is attempting to cast) to the concentration check DC. It goes on to say that if the distracting spell doesn't allow a save, then calculate what the DC would be normally and use that for the distracting spell's save DC (Ice storm would be 14 + Wis mod). Hope this helps! -Jindl EDIT: Fluiddragon has posted a ranger/monk! Should we go ahead and decide now if flurry stacks with twf?? My impression is that it does not stack... |
| Caterane11-09-03, 10:40 AM | Hope this helps! It doesn`t to Skymoon :devil: |
| fluiddragon11-09-03, 11:09 AM | Originally posted by Jindl EDIT: Fluiddragon has posted a ranger/monk! Should we go ahead and decide now if flurry stacks with twf?? My impression is that it does not stack... Actually it does, (Who would want to though the attack bonus sucks). But I'm not taking the tw route with the ranger. I'm going monk to 13 (spell resistance) then ranger - archery path, Mostly to get favored enemy bonuses. There was a huge discussion on enworld about this. Some DM's won't allow it. in 3.0 it wasn't allowed. But in 3.5 the wording permits it but some feel that it is not in the spirit of both FoB and TWF. So technically it is allowed, but your BaB is so low that it wouldn't matter. I personally wouldn't do it. And I don't want to get involved in another 200+ post argumement over it. The rules permit it and it is a DM call whether they feel that it is in the spirit of the game to allow it. I personally feel it is against the spirit, but in my game allow it, not that anyone has ever used it. The monks Low BaB and the high AC's of opponents makes it almost useless. -fd |
| SnarkHunter11-09-03, 11:15 AM | ... :( |
| fluiddragon11-09-03, 11:36 AM | Was there ever a decision on Rope Trick and other extra dimensional space spells? Are they simply baned or are we going to use Jindl's idea with a 10 round then your dead so that it can be used to buff? I need to know so I can adjust my equipment and tactics for Gage's next fight. -fd |
| LLMadCow11-09-03, 12:35 PM | Quick comment on the whole Lora vs Gage combat - I am recommending that most people MAY want to acknowledge in their tactics that if their actual opponent is not present and they are currently being attack by another creature, that that is to become their primary enemy. I mean, give me a break. If I am being attacked by some pet/familiar/animal companion, and my actual opponent is no where to be found, then I kill what is before me. How do I know my opponent cannot shapechange? How did Lora know this wasn't her opponent. It was foolish to believe that Lora would just sit back and get killed by some buffed bird. After all the MAGICAL damage the bird was doing, the bird should have become the opponent. I am serious. Any opponet getting hit with magic from some critter is going to be smart enough to shift their focus. EVEN LOTHAR, so no wise cracks there! This is gladiatorial combat, and it has to be acknowledged that we are here to fight and kill. Just because one opponent is missing does not mean that we do not kill the currently available one.... I'd be ticked if Lothar was getting slaughtered by some bird, but unwilling to attampet to kill it. "Stay away stupid birdie!" shouts Lothar as he swipes the bird away. "I said stay away," as the bird tries to pluck out his eye. "Birdie, why do you hate Lothar? Lothar must kill the mean wizard! OWW! Why did birdie shock Lothar? OWOWOW! Why did birdie try to stun Lothar? Lothar no hate you, birdie. YOW! <Lothar quaffs a potion of Cure> BIRDIE, STOP IT! OW <SIZZLE> Why is birdie burning Lothar? Why is birdie so mean? Birdie is not Lothars opponent, Lothar no kill Birdie. Lothar" - slumps to the ground dead.... It ain't gonna happen. Use a little realism and accept that we are after an opponent. It's how it should be! |
| Jindl11-09-03, 12:37 PM | Lothar ... birdie ... :rofl: |
| fluiddragon11-09-03, 12:56 PM | LMAO :D :D :D |
| Magagumo11-09-03, 01:21 PM | Yes, I think we've all seen the importance of dealing with bad birdies... and I am going to be quite afraid of Moh's greatsword hands ^_^ And no, Jindl, the play was called Uncommon Women and Others very entertaining, but I did't end up writing those tactics to very, very late (as you probably noticed ;)) Oscaridad's tactics are being sent out now, and Im finishing up that last fight. |
| Caterane11-09-03, 04:15 PM | This fight is really taxing. Now, that it swallowed whole my sunday I`ll finish it tomorow evening. |
| SnarkHunter11-09-03, 05:42 PM | Cat: Take as long as you need. Also 2nd fight finished. |
| MotherBast11-09-03, 06:04 PM | It wasen't that Lora didn't try to kill the Bird, MadCow, its that she just didn't use Color spray to do it. If she had had a melee weapon she whould have attacked it a lot, becaue melee weapons aren't one shot only deals. But if she had used her color spray, thats it, no more spray when she actually does find Gage. She did attack the bird, with her best nonmagical attack, her alch fire, and might have actually killed it if she hadden't rolled a 1. She wasen't ignoreing the bird that was killing her, she just had a specific tactic for color spray, and killing the bird was not in that tactic. If I had color sprayed the bird, I could then have tossed her tactics in the trash, cause they were based on color spraying Gage. I wasen't about to disreguard her tactics completly, so she dealt with the bird as best she could, without leaving the scope of her tactics. |
| MadCowTemplate11-09-03, 07:04 PM | Wow, what a ruckus. There's been a lot of talk over my recent boot-to-the-head. I guess I'll have to speak on it. After rereading my tactics and considering the way the fight went and how I envision Lora, I really don't think she would have used color spray on the bird. Sling stones, alkie-fire, yes, but she would probably take such offense at the idea of getting walloped by a bird that she would refuse to use something of that caliber on it. I do feel that the way spells got stacked looks rather suspect, and again, s'kinda cheap, but whatever on that bit. So, while I do feel that I sorta got jipped, I'm not bothered by the restrained color spray. For future reference however, my tactics shall now include an "eat roast bird at all costs" clause. ;) @LLMC: psst...over here...I think we should form a MadCow Union. We violently psychotic forced-fed-cannibals need to stick together. :D P.S.: Can a Bard use fascinate in the arena? |
| MotherBast11-09-03, 09:25 PM | Forgive me if I'm being a little daft, but why can Rito take Improved Natural attack? I guess it kinda would make sense that a fist is a natural attack, but its listed as both an unarmed attack, and as a weapon. It is never listed a natural attack, so I don't see this feat working with Unarmed strikes. Was there anything in the SRD where that Ability Focus stuff was listed that covers this? |
| Magagumo11-09-03, 09:50 PM | No, there was no reference to Improved Natural Attack, and I honestly think it shouldn't work (as we've said, it's a weapon, and monk's do honestly get the feat every couple of levels ;)) Honest Moh, it is a little crazy to be taking that as a natural attack is defined as (tentacle, bite, claw or talon, gore, slap or slam, sting), but these are only common ones. *Shrug* Couldn't tell you. |
| MadCowTemplate11-09-03, 09:54 PM | Please forgive my blatent ignorance, but what is this "SRD" I keep seeing referenced? WARNING! PURE REALITY BASED OPINION AHEAD! WARNING! Have you ever punched someone? I mean really punched someone? If you do it wrong, you can break your thumb or even your wrist. People often get bruised and bloodied hands from a fist fight. It was designed for gardening—I've said too much. I do not wish for religious debate. Believe me, the human hand is not a "natural weapon." Now karaoke! That's a natural weapon. :) |
| Jindl11-09-03, 10:24 PM | Ebelin vs Bruno posted. It took me 6 hours to run the fight (gotta love mages duels.) And another hour to add the story after running the fight. (Cat, I don't know how you come up with new stories each week. It's really tough...) Hope everyone enjoys the read... -Jindl |
| Jindl11-09-03, 10:24 PM | The SRD (a link can be found on the WotC homepage) is basically the 3.5 PHB, DMG, and MM online, and is not copyright protected due to the Open gaming license. -Jindl |
| Magagumo11-10-03, 12:22 AM | You MMed my hawk on the first round!!! Dirty pool, sir, dirty pool ^_~ *Sigh* I completely misread how that fight was going to go, and lost quite a bit for it. Salutations to you Cat, you won that thing with swift and brutal tactics. Been working on Hurtz Octavian fight.... Hurtz, if you're going to use your fists for attacks, grab IUS or a gauntlet so you actually mange to do something with those fists... (I'll finish this beast on the morrow) |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-10-03, 12:58 AM | Originally posted by Magagumo Been working on Hurtz Octavian fight.... Hurtz, if you're going to use your fists for attacks, grab IUS or a gauntlet so you actually mange to do something with those fists... (I'll finish this beast on the morrow) Well my tactics are pretty clear on avoiding the AoO's that would result from it. And a gauntlet doesn't prevent the AoO from attempting to grapple, only striking like a weapon, and if i'm gonna do that, i'm much better off with my scimitar. But fear not there is a method to my madness. ;) Basically if i win, my next lvl (and every level thereafter) will be monk lvls. Finish the beast? Hmm..sorry :( I'm trying to make my fights faster and less of a pain to moderate. Tellish |
| SnarkHunter11-10-03, 01:52 AM | Speaking of pains! Sorry but this one took a while. nothing to complicated...just two high AC low attack people smacking away... Johan vs. Oscar. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1799140#post1799140) |
| fluiddragon11-10-03, 03:09 AM | Originally posted by Jindl The SRD (a link can be found on the WotC homepage) is basically the 3.5 PHB, DMG, and MM online, and is not copyright protected due to the Open gaming license. -Jindl Also if you want linked, organised, or downloadable versions: http://3.5srd.com |
| Moherajikuyx11-10-03, 04:23 AM | Originally posted by Magagumo No, there was no reference to Improved Natural Attack, and I honestly think it shouldn't work (as we've said, it's a weapon, and monk's do honestly get the feat every couple of levels ;)) Actually, it counts as a natural weapon, and it's clearly stated. From the SRD classes I (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/ClassesI.rtf), Monk, Unarmed Strike:A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons. Originally posted by MadCowTemplate Believe me, the human hand is not a "natural weapon." You gotta meet my IRL kungfu master... |
| LLMadCow11-10-03, 04:49 AM | LOTHAR HATES BIRDS! Quote by some idiot pre-cognitive "Stay away stupid birdie!" shouts Lothar as he swipes the bird away. "I said stay away," as the bird tries to pluck out his eye. "Birdie, why do you hate Lothar? Lothar must kill the mean wizard! OWW! Why did birdie shock Lothar? OWOWOW! Why did birdie try to stun Lothar? Lothar no hate you, birdie. YOW! <Lothar quaffs a potion of Cure> BIRDIE, STOP IT! OW <SIZZLE> Why is birdie burning Lothar? Why is birdie so mean? Birdie is not Lothars opponent, Lothar no kill Birdie. Lothar" - slumps to the ground dead.... Some small part of me feels that my earlier sarcastic commentary on being attacked by a bird led to Lothar's sad demise... Quote by the same idiot pre-cognitive It ain't gonna happen. Use a little realism and accept that we are after an opponent. It's how it should be! Oops. My bad, I guess it was going to happen... |
| LLMadCow11-10-03, 05:18 AM | I have run my fight for the week, but it will not be posted until Monday night. Sorry all. Also, due to Lothar's recent record, he will be listed as Reserved and not entered into combat. I am going to be adding a 3rd PC, but only Allister will be active until after I move and get settled (2 weeks or so). Any ideas for a new character? What have we not seen much of? I am thinking of doing something that aims for a PrC and focusing the build that way, but I am still unsure. Heirophant? Thaumaturge? (A note for those bards - Any looking at the Arcane Trickster?) Playing Allister has given me an ALL NEW respect for Druids and I have yet to play a Cleric or Paladin, so I may go that route. I wish we had a greater list of domains and gods. Could go with sneaky Rogue. Bards are being tested and respected. Lothar is my Barbariand/Fighter. I tried a Ranger. We have plenty of Wizards. I am not currently interested in a Monk. I guess for now I am just thinking aloud... Input welcomed. |
| Moherajikuyx11-10-03, 06:08 AM | Well, you could try to reach the most absurd AC... ranger 1/fighter x/dwarven defender? ... Lizardfolk fighter? (@lvl 4, full plate+tower shield +1 dex: AC 28 with no magic lol) Uhm... rogue/sorcerer? Trick them, invisible one! monk/druid? or barbarian/druid? Enhance that animal shape! barb/sorc/dragon disciple? Or barb/bard/dd? I wish I had the time to do them. These are those that I'd like to try. There's a thousand more I think. |
| fluiddragon11-10-03, 07:15 AM | LL character ideas I was thinking of: Barb 1 Sorc 6 Dragon Disciple (Kinda sucks to get them there though). After that could be fun. (Didn't realize Mo saidthe same thing:) ) Halfling Acrane trickster with thrown daggers and poision. Super high hide and move silent craft wondrus item feat and makes elixirs of hiding and sneaking. (Use UMD to get the silence spell for the later) With smoke sticks, invisibility, and the like it would be a cool character. With a shocking/returning/keen dagger, poisioned, with a sneak attack it would be nice. Maybe a few more rouge levels for better sneak attack. Use magic to enhance the character rather than damage the opponent. Grey Elvish Druid/Wizard more druid than wizard. -fd |
| Caterane11-10-03, 07:20 AM | @Jindl: This story was really cool: the connection with the Faldion fight, the interaction between Elder+Bubo, Faldion+Bubo, Elder+Bruno, Bruno+Bilo and all mixed into one fight. Oh, and after my shameful defeat against Jindl this great victory was really necessary. Cat, I don't know how you come up with new stories each week. It's really tough Depends on how long you have to drive your car alone a day :) @all: I finished the Jindl vs Moon fight (no spoilers, you can read on). This was a most entertaining fight and after that I couldn`t sleep for three hours (and that during a didactics lecture!!). But... I am not going to post it because I want to first double check it. A friend of mine visits me later on and I`ll give him something to read. The problem is it was a difficult fight to run - even if one doesn`t see this on the first spot - and I don`t want the loser having lost due to a moderator`s mistake. |
| Moherajikuyx11-10-03, 08:11 AM | You can't make me read this while I'm at the office... It's dangerous for my job... Originally posted by SnarkHunter Lantern Archon: Why have I been summoned, where is the evil I must face? bobs and tumbles Lemure: BLAAAARGGH! :rofl: |
| Caterane11-10-03, 08:21 AM | Indeed Snark, that was too funny. I laughed my a$$ off. Keep up the good work!! |
| Jindl11-10-03, 08:53 AM | @cellardweller - I noticed in reading the fight that the dog's AC was improved by +4 for studded leather barding. It should have only been +3. That means the dog would have been hit in round 4. But since he was put down in round 5, it probably had no bearing on the fight. -Jindl @Snark - Good fight. Very funny. :) |
| Caterane11-10-03, 08:57 AM | Oh Jindl, good that you`re here. Just a question: is it possible to make a target dispel against someone with mirror images running? I thought Bruno had to chose one but he automatically targeted me. An area dispel would just dispel one enchantment. |
| Jindl11-10-03, 09:08 AM | @Cat - I rolled for the mirror image and he got a 2 (1d6, 1-2 was you.). I must of edited it out when I added the story. I'll put it back in. Re: Improved Nat. Attack for monks - After reading Mo's last post and quotes, I've gotta agree with him. A monk's unarmed strike is considered both a natural weapon and a manufactured weapon for all effects. A feat is definately an effect. Therefore it can be enhanced by improved natural weapon (which really only acts like the monk is one category larger, much like Jotunbrud and other non-core feats.) On a new topic, I have noticed a "problem". The highest level characters are having to face each other again and again. For example, Alathar would have had to face Skymoon twice in a row if he didn't go inactive. Jindl and Skymoon have fought like 3 times out of 7 fights. At 7th level, every character has faced every other character. And this problem will get worse at 8th, 9th and 10th level... We need to find a way for higher level characters to face "new blood". The purpose is better optimization, which can only be done by testing the character against many different opponents. Something which is not happening to our "best" characters (best = most successful.) My suggestion on how to handle this is, to put a freeze on level 8. Basically, hold all characters at level 8, until we have 12 or 16 of them (which would only take about 4 weeks). Then we restart the mid level competition, and it gives a chance for the characters to face new opponents. Most importantly, it prevents the same repeated fights, again and again. What do you guys think? -Jindl |
| MotherBast11-10-03, 09:16 AM | I was wondering about the same thing Jindl. It does seem as though some new blood certanly needs to be added at the higher levels. It certanly isen't fair for Snark, who winds up possibly having to fight himself over and over. I would deffanlty hold off at 8th level untill at least 8 characters are that high, and then go from there to about 12th and wait again, then 16th, then on the 20th..... of course, it will be a long time before anyone gets that far, but stopping ever 4 levels utill enough fighters are high level keeps it intresting. |
| Moherajikuyx11-10-03, 09:23 AM | Jindl - I'd leave that to the character owners. If they're bored, than make them wait. I wouldn't force it, because people could have been organizing equipment given the likely challenges faced. Moreover, the new recruits are rising fast... Next week, there could be two of Bruno Wilikens, Rito Maya, The Harvester, and Eniolissaryn up there; the week after, add four among the two remaining, and Mara ThunderStorm, Lothar the Orc, Kelek, Allister Swiftfoot, Hurtz or Octavian Cesar, and Iron the Panza or Brackin Bonesnapperare coming... That's not a simple life, the gladiator's! :b: |
| fluiddragon11-10-03, 10:04 AM | Some people need to adjust their touch armor class. Mage armor provides an armor bonus and does not help your touch ac. It only helps your touch ac vs incoporeal attacks, not your over all touch attack. You only retain this bonus to your touch AC vs incoporeal creatures. From the SRD: An invisible but tangible field of force surrounds the subject of a mage armor spell, providing a +4 armor bonus to AC. Unlike mundane armor, mage armor entails no armor check penalty, arcane spell failure chance, or speed reduction. Since mage armor is made of force, incorporeal creatures can’t bypass it the way they do normal armor. Shield also provides a shield bonus and though it is a force effect does not help in touch AC. From the SRD: Shield creates an invisible, tower shield-sized mobile disk of force that hovers in front of you. It negates magic missile attacks directed at you. The disk also provides a +4 shield bonus to AC. This bonus applies against incorporeal touch attacks, since it is a force effect. The shield has no armor check penalty or arcane spell failure chance. Unlike with a normal tower shield, you can’t use the shield spell for cover Touch attacks from the SRD; Some attacks disregard armor, including shields and natural armor. In these cases, the attacker makes a touch attack roll (either ranged or melee). When you are the target of a touch attack, your AC doesn’t include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. All other modifiers, such as your size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) apply normally. I noticed this on several characters. -fd |
| Caterane11-10-03, 10:19 AM | Ok here is the fight. I wrote 64000 letters more than allowed so I split it into several posts. After you`ve all read the fight I think there might be some discussion neccessary. Until then... enjoy! THE REALMS-SHAKING BATTLE Skymoon Moonbow vs Jindl of the Highforest (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1800554#post1800554) I would suggest to get a bag of crisps and a bottle of beer Yours Caterane |
| MotherBast11-10-03, 11:06 AM | It was a great fight Cat. One thing I did notice though, Hyppogryphs arn't animals, they are Magical Beasts, so the Hide from animals effect would not have protected Moon-moon. It dosen't matter though, as moon-moon lost anyway, I decision I agree with, as he would have hit the arena floor first, theirfor he would have died before Jindl. |
| barrel_master11-10-03, 11:20 AM | I suppose I have to agree with your conculsion... the paladin did fall first and he was the first to be knocked unconsice... I think he lost. |
| Jindl11-10-03, 11:21 AM | I told you I didn't envy you the job of running that fight. And it only had a couple of errors! (Pretty impressive considering the sheer number of rules that came into play...) 1. If Moon-moon failed to save against entangle spell, then he can't move without making a major strength check. So I'm not sure how he got out of the area of the spell. 2. Hippogryphs are magical beasts and not subject to hide from animals... (they could have attacked Skymoon to break concentration on summoning Monk-bane in Round 7 and again on round 8 before the protection from chaos came into effect.) 3. The improved evasion of the mount does not benefit the rider. Skymoon would still have had to save (and take half damage at a minimum) on 4 different call lightning strokes, could have ended the fight earlier, as he was in the single digit hps repeatedly.) These things could have ended the fight sooner. As it was, Jindl really suffered from a lot of unlucky rolls, while the paladin keep making great rolls. Still, it was an epic fight and good work, Cat! -Jindl |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-10-03, 11:43 AM | Originally posted by Jindl [BRe: Improved Nat. Attack for monks - After reading Mo's last post and quotes, I've gotta agree with him. A monk's unarmed strike is considered both a natural weapon and a manufactured weapon for all effects. A feat is definately an effect. Therefore it can be enhanced by improved natural weapon (which really only acts like the monk is one category larger, much like Jotunbrud and other non-core feats.) [/B] Wrong. Feats are not effects. I cannot cast Agility on someone to give them the benefit. I cannot egg someone on so that they are so enraged they gain benefit of my power attack feat. DMG 87. Feats are special features that give your character a new capability or improves one that he or she already has. Dragon Disciples gain natural attacks. Natural attacks are also defined by race. Nowhere in monk or in pbh races do any of them have a natural attack. IUS does not mention anything about your hands now become natural weapons. That is classic rules lawyering guys. It's twisting a few words and applying it to something else entirely. So then when mages cast dispel magic and dispel your effects are you now featless as well? C'mon...that's just retarded. Think about it. When you walk into an anti-magic field and all effects are supressed, do you suddenly lose all your feats? I don't think so. But, ya'll are the senior mods, so if it's gonna be abused there is little i can do about it, and may as well give my soon-to-be fighter/monk the same thing just to compete. But then we can start twisting words for everything else while we are at it. I'm gonna have my rogue/wizard build magical traps sicne they last longer than 24 hrs and place them on your starting square before the fight begins since technically i can. I don't think that's what the 24 hr in advance rule means, but i can twist it to fit my purpose right? Sorry, to sound upset, but that is just insane and shouldn't be allowed. Tellish @ fluiddragon. Kudos on spotting those errors as well. I inform all combatants who give me those stats that it simply doesn't work that way. Those were some very common error in 3.0 and some just never learned and those same mistakes are being carried over into 3.5 Fluid is correct on all counts. |
| SnarkHunter11-10-03, 11:56 AM | Wow that was an amazing fight. Glad you think I'm funny cat but you're stories are one of the reasons I like this board so much. (Take that character development board!) Anyway, I three must agree that Moon-moon was dead dead for reasons mentioned previously and Skymoon….., (10/-5, 60ft); 24/60 hp, invisible (10/30), Bless (3/30), Protection from chaos (2/30), Bulls strength (1/30), hidden from animals (9/10), fairy fired (9/70) Monk-bane.., (10/-5, 60ft); 51/51 hp, Bless (3/30), Protection from chaos (2/30), Bulls strength (1/30) Sorry! I should have mentioned this in tactics but we had said in discusion here that share spells does not extend to scrolls...So yeah, an incredibly fight in all respects. In other news I think Moon-moon shall be joining a monastic order-for a week or two! If only so he can be better prepared to face new blood when the time is right (and not wishing to further antagonize that unfortunate halfling...). Also Mo: If you could put down you're rules for Hide and Move silently on the 1st page, that would be keen. I've been using them a lot but I keep forgetting what page they're on in the discussion thread. |
| Moherajikuyx11-10-03, 12:06 PM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket Wrong. Feats are not effects. [...] Take it easy Tellish! 8-0 Your arguments are sound, but then, what the heck is an effect? If they said "spells and effects" they have to be different, so what's the difference? This is not rules lawyering, it's simply that I can't find what's an effect. Snarky, I just used them as guidelines... Well, I might as well do it. The problem is that we're getting near to the 5k characters max, this would make a new thread necessary :( The actual one is quite full of old builds, though. |
| Jindl11-10-03, 12:19 PM | The Elder has issued a challenge on the Role-play thread. If you're a Simpson's fan like I am, you may want to read it. Also, Bubo's true nature is beginning to be hinted at... -Jindl @Mo - Do we need to start a new discussion thread? |
| Caterane11-10-03, 12:33 PM | If Moon-moon failed to save against entangle spell, then he can't move without making a major strength check. So I'm not sure how he got out of the area of the spell Actually I had that already written down with story and everything but then my seventh sense overruled my sixth and let me check DMG, p300 where there clearly stands: half movement. Until the end I wasn`t sure which one is right. Hippogryphs are magical beasts and not subject to hide from animals... (they could have attacked Skymoon to break concentration on summoning Monk-bane in Round 7 and again on round 8 before the protection from chaos came into effect.) *claps hand on head* Never seen a hippo in our world :rolleyes: Of course, magical beasts. But in this case Skymoon would`ve put more emphasize on casting Protection a round earlier or two. My fault, nethertheless. The improved evasion of the mount does not benefit the rider. Skymoon would still have had to save (and take half damage at a minimum) on 4 different call lightning strokes, could have ended the fight earlier, as he was in the single digit hps repeatedly.) Are you entirely sure on this? I played a paladin from level 5 to 20 and Improved evasion was one of the main pains of my DM. |
| Moherajikuyx11-10-03, 12:40 PM | Originally posted by Jindl @Mo - Do we need to start a new discussion thread? I don't see the need, we're not accessing old posts, as we do in the builds thread. |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-10-03, 12:57 PM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Take it easy Tellish! 8-0 Your arguments are sound, but then, what the heck is an effect? If they said "spells and effects" they have to be different, so what's the difference? This is not rules lawyering, it's simply that I can't find what's an effect. I'm not really upset, believe me, my fighter/monk will love it, but i just don't think it applies is all. The definenition of an effect isn't murky at all. Magic oil produces an effect because it's from the spell, which is an effect. Power attack isn't an effect, it's a result of a skilled and trained individual applyng his/her knowledge. If improved natural weapons is allowed then fine, i'll be taking it asap that's for sure. But rest assured, i do not believe it to be the case. Also, great fight Cat. Above and beyond what's already been said i have a point that hasn't been picked up on yet. You must be able to communicate with what you summon if you want them to perfrom something other than attack. In this case, Jindl does not speak Auran so couldn't command them to throw the tanglefoot bags. I only know this because i also play a summoning cleric and had to take the various elemental languages to enhance their roles. Because a small elemental really isn't impressive in combat as a L3 summons. I use the small elementals for task-completion is all. Like fire ele go get the ruby on the pillar across that lava field, earth ele weaken structure around locked doors, etc... Since i see Jindl as an Int of 12, it's possible he could have Auran as a language. If he did have it, and i didn't see it, then please ignore this. Tellish |
| Caterane11-10-03, 01:12 PM | Skills Concentration +15 (11 ranks +4 Con) Craft (armor) +10 (7 ranks +1 Int +2 m.w. tools) Handle animal +6 (5 ranks -1 Cha +2 m.w. tools) KS-Nature +10 (5 ranks +1 Int +2 Nature Sense +2 synergy Survival) Listen +16 (11 ranks +5 Wis) Ride +11 (8 ranks + 1 Dex +2 synergy from Handle Animal) Spellcraft +4 (3 ranks +1 Int) Spot +16 (11 ranks +5 Wis) Survival +14 (5 ranks +5 Wis +2 Nature Sense +2 synergy KS-Nature) Speaks Common, Druidic, Auran No problem |
| Jindl11-10-03, 01:17 PM | Amazing bit of foresight on my part, don't ya think, Tellish? (Jindl has known how to speak Auran since he started - go back and look at his char sheet in his very first fight...) It's for the same reason you said, getting the elementals to perform tasks and such. Plus, air elementals are the ultimate in mobility and I figured they could be very useful at higher levels. Cat, you did do a great job on the fight. It was really a tough one to moderate, with more rules interactions than seen in any fight before it. You're right that Moon-moon would have waited a round to summon Monk-Bane, if he knew the hipps were coming. But as it was, he started his own summoning before they appeared, and so they would have had a chance to disrupt before he could put up the protection vs chaos. It's alright, though. I got the chance to see how well Jindl could stand against the mounted and fully powered paladin (and took like >30 points from a charge too.) But, I am positive that the paladin doesn't benefit from his mount's improved evasion ability, just like a wizard doesn't benefit from his familiars improved evasion ability. -Jindl PS: And Cat, I followed your suggestion and started putting skill points into Spellcraft for the druid. |
| Moherajikuyx11-10-03, 03:12 PM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket The definenition of an effect isn't murky at all. Magic oil produces an effect because it's from the spell, which is an effect. Power attack isn't an effect, it's a result of a skilled and trained individual applyng his/her knowledge. If improved natural weapons is allowed then fine, i'll be taking it asap that's for sure. But rest assured, i do not believe it to be the case. Can you say where's that? I've been paper digging a lot but I couldn't. I'll change Rito's feat to something else though, just to be sure. To get to happier things... I finally had the time to read it all... Caterane... What can I say... :bow: :( The only sad thing, is this damn little line in the Ice Storm description... Duration: 1 full round But I assure you guys, this is by far the best fight I ever read... And Ajax let me in GH *giggles* |
| Jindl11-10-03, 03:18 PM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx :( The only sad thing, is this damn little line in the Ice Storm description... Duration: 1 full round I know :). That's what makes Ice storm the greatest spell casting disruption strategy a druid has. You can cast it on your turn and it will still be disrupting them on their turn. And if you cast it 3 times in a row... well that's 3 full rounds of disruption. And now you know Jindl's favorite 4th level spell (for now anyways...) -Jindl |
| Moherajikuyx11-10-03, 03:42 PM | Yea, that's wicked. |
| Magagumo11-10-03, 04:18 PM | Paladin does not share improved evasion ability, effects count as things that affect natural attacks (perhaps a monster that lends a +1 to all natural attacks in a 10' radius, yada, yada). Effects generally mean extrodinary or supernatural abilities. Hmm, so even dispel must get past the mirror images.. that is the most bloody annoying spell!! (And I'm the illusionist here ^_~). Ah well, good times nonetheless. Tellish, by beast, I mean simply that I had quite a bit of school work to do besides the fight, and was bitter about having to do that instead of D & D ;). It's not going that badly for me, honest :). |
| Caterane11-10-03, 04:32 PM | Concerning the Improved evasion issue: I didn´t think that it is shared. Not in the least but since Monk-bane evaded he made Skymoon evade automatically with him. That`s not a supernatural transition but a normal ordinary effect But, I am positive that the paladin doesn't benefit from his mount's improved evasion ability, just like a wizard doesn't benefit from his familiars improved evasion ability. A wizard doesn`t ride his familiar after all (though if Bilo shrinks a bit further...) Edit: @Jindl: You seem to have a good grasp on the familiar thing. Does he gain my feats, no feats at all, or all feats ever written? Then the saves. A familiar has base saves of 0/2/2. Does this mean he has a good reflex and will and a bad fortitude (which means that they increase by level) or do they stay at that number thus over time being overshadowed by my saves which are better? |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-10-03, 04:53 PM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Can you say where's that? I've been paper digging a lot but I couldn't. I'll change Rito's feat to something else though, just to be sure. Honestly MO, you don't have to change it my account. It seems like i'm the only one with this view. I've always been a proponent of majority rules. I can see your interpretation. Believe me, i'm not just trying to be stubborn. My hat is off to Cat. That was amazingly well run. We can all sit here like arm-chair moderators and pick a peice or two, but really, that was BADD!! I'm looking at the list of up-and-commers, and it doesn't look like fights will get any easier to moderate. I only hpe we all use as much care as Cat does. Tellish |
| fluiddragon11-10-03, 08:06 PM | I don't know if anybody else has noticed but there is a problem with the new standard character sheet that makes it really not user friendly. The code tag allows the width of the screen to go way out and it forces you to scroll to read anything. It is very anoying and i dont want to have to heavily edit a sheet to print it out or view it when I mod a match or even just browsing sheets. I don't know what the reason behind the use of the code tag is but I would suggest not using it. If we need a marker to divide the sheet into easy cut and paste chuncks I woud suggest something else. I can understand the need for a standard sheet but there has to be a better way to implement it. -fd edit: is there a word wrap functin that can be added to the code tag or something to fix this problem? Also the code font is not the easiest to read. Look at the last page of the character thread I have a 1024x768 screen rez and I can only see 1/2 the screen. This page looks horrible compared to the other pages. |
| Sir Cridion11-10-03, 08:12 PM | That last fight was incredible. I shudder at the thought of having to run a mounted, aerial battle with spellcasters. |
| barrel_master11-10-03, 10:46 PM | Just a heads up... I've changed the name of 'Paul' to 'Paul Hector' and 'Peter' to 'Peter Petroclus'. |
| barrel_master11-10-03, 11:03 PM | Just a question to snark... how do you plan on developing your paladin... I just don't want our dudes 'Paul Hector' and 'Moon moon' to end up the same. Also, can you use a shield while using a lance 2 handed? I know you can use a lance with one hand but I've never seen the 2-handed + shield rule. AR, have a plesant day. :) |
| Jindl11-10-03, 11:06 PM | Originally posted by Caterane Concerning the Improved evasion issue: I didn´t think that it is shared. Not in the least but since Monk-bane evaded he made Skymoon evade automatically with him. That`s not a supernatural transition but a normal ordinary effect While I see your logic, I don't think it is appropriate from a game mechanics point of view to assume that just because the mount avoids damage, the rider automatically does as well. Again, the mount may have the improved evasion, but nowhere does it say the rider gains this ability from his mount. Originally posted by Caterane @Jindl: You seem to have a good grasp on the familiar thing. Does he gain my feats, no feats at all, or all feats ever written? Then the saves. A familiar has base saves of 0/2/2. Does this mean he has a good reflex and will and a bad fortitude (which means that they increase by level) or do they stay at that number thus over time being overshadowed by my saves which are better? I am of course, happy to help. Familiars use their own base animal feats (no advancement) plus their master's feats (although some may be inappropriate, such as weapon focus(longsword) and such.) They use their own skill ranks or their master's skill ranks, whichever is better (so yes, Bubo has ranks in Spellcraft...) But the familiar modifies these skill ranks based on its ability scores (so Bubo's spellcraft check is still not as good as the Elders.) As for saves, it works the same as skills. They use their base unadvanced animal saves, or the master's base saves, whichever are better, and then modify them based on the familiars ability scores. Hope this clears things up. :) -Jindl |
| Draloth11-11-03, 12:13 AM | Little question, how do you go about actually getting a fight rolling? |
| SnarkHunter11-11-03, 12:36 AM | .Barrel: The long term devlopment of Moon-moon is questionable to be honest. I like the mounted fighting thing though. However I will admit I've been toying with the idea of Blackguard around level 12... As for using a Lance and shield, this is completely possible while mounted. You still get the two handed str damage for the lance as well-for purposes of power attack as well. Jindle: I'd always assumed Improved evasion applied only to the mount. Draloth: How do you mean? Mechanic wise or in terms of Flavor? For me I usually think of a compelling side event to make the fight in the arena more palatable for readers. So I'll write out an interesting initiative signal first and then procede with the rolling, and the moving and the fighting and the so on and so on. If you want a basic combat sheet (The standard one that I, Mag, and Mother all use) I can e-mail it to you. Its got space to cut and paste everything important for the fight and plenty of room to customize to your liking. If your talking about something completely different feel free to ignore me :D. |
| Draloth11-11-03, 12:39 AM | Was referring more to how I got my character involved ;), I'm not quite ready to run fights. Have him posted on the roster and he's marked "Ok" so I was wondering what to do next. |
| Draloth11-11-03, 12:39 AM | <grumble> Double post |
| SnarkHunter11-11-03, 01:07 AM | Ah I thought that might be the case, so consider that general advice for everyone! You're job is done now. ~Wednesday Mo will do random pairings and you will be matched up with some other 2nd level gladiator. At that point no more editing of the character! Many new folk forget that one. Then you look at you're opponents sheet and send tactics to the mod, at some point over the weekend the fight will be posted! And that is that. |
| MadCowTemplate11-11-03, 01:25 AM | If you want a basic combat sheet (The standard one that I, Mag, and Mother all use) I can e-mail it to you. Its got space to cut and paste everything important for the fight and plenty of room to customize to your liking. As I am about to enter the wacky world of the ref'. I would very much like one the afformentioned...why am I talking this way? Gimme one a them combat sheet thingies please. :) |
| Draloth11-11-03, 01:52 AM | If you could, I'd love to see that combat sheet as well. |
| Moherajikuyx11-11-03, 04:06 AM | Originally posted by fluiddragon I don't know if anybody else has noticed but there is a problem with the new standard character sheet that makes it really not user friendly. The code tag allows the width of the screen to go way out and it forces you to scroll to read anything. It is very anoying and i dont want to have to heavily edit a sheet to print it out or view it when I mod a match or even just browsing sheets. Finally someone commenting the standard sheet! I changed the [code] tag to [font=courier] tag. This gives a fixed width font but lets it be wordwrap. *edit* done. Note: I repeat, we're not accepting new characters until they comply with the standard sheet. Suggestions to improve the sheet are welcome. Old characters are invited to use it as well. |
| Draloth11-11-03, 05:20 AM | Noted and edited. |
| fluiddragon11-11-03, 06:15 AM | I'll edit the standard sheet to make the layout clear and make it as eay to read as possible, and make access to the vital information easy to find. I'll post it later today. The organizartion of the standard sheet can be improved and it could look nicer. -fd |
| Moherajikuyx11-11-03, 06:27 AM | OK fluid! What about the missing fights? It's tuesday... Lev. 4 Hurtz, Tellish_of_Ket vs. Octavian Cesar, barrel_master: Magagumo Iron the Panza, Moherajikuyx vs. Brackin Bonesnapper, MotherBast: LLMadCow |
| Moherajikuyx11-11-03, 06:33 AM | :eek: Originally posted by Caterane Equipment at home: Book of Vile Darkness |
| LLMadCow11-11-03, 06:52 AM | My fight is soon to be posted, honest! |
| MotherBast11-11-03, 09:10 AM | Gerr.... Brackin is updated for the parings. Somehow I knew I would loose that fight. |
| barrel_master11-11-03, 10:10 AM | Thank you Snark. @all, is this our final stand on the 'extra-dimensional space' thing? All creatures leaving the arena 'via telleport, or by entering some other dimension' forfiet their match. |
| Caterane11-11-03, 10:44 AM | THE FIGHT BEGINS <Fight is finished, Iron the Panza wins in 12 rounds; full details to be posted soon. I at least want people to be able to advace.> tems Used - Brackin Bonesnapper: Potions: Invisibility, Mage Armor, Shield of Faith, Bulls Strength and Enlarge Person. Iron The Panza: Nothing Oh yeah, that will be a most exciting fight, full of suspense!! I can`t wait to see who wins... |
| fluiddragon11-11-03, 11:30 AM | Optional: Short character description, or favoured quote, or the like. Max. 3 lines. --- delete --- Note: Moderators start copy from top line to botom line --- delete --- ___________________________________ Name Gender: Race: Sizecategory, ??'??" tall, ?? wt, ?? yrs old Colortype hair; colortype eyes; tonetype skin Alignment: Class: ??st lvl Speaks languagename, languagename, and languagename Str ?? +-? pts ?? +-racial [Conditional modifiers like rage] Dex ?? +-? pts ?? +-racial Con ?? +-? pts ?? +-racial [Conditional modifiers like rage] Int ?? +-? pts ?? +-racial Wis ?? +-? pts ?? +-racial Cha ?? +-? pts ?? +-racial Hit Points ?? AC ?? (?dex, ?size, ?armor, ?shield, ?feat...), Touch ??, Flat ?? [Conditional modifiers like rage] -- delete -- *note Mage Armor + Shied do NOT add to Touch AC -- delete -- Init + (?dex, ?feat) BAB +?? Grap +??(?str, ? feat...) [Conditional modifiers like rage] Speed ?? (base ??, load 0/33/66/100, armorcategory) Weight Carried: ?? .lbs Saves: Fort +?? (?base +?con +?enh...), Refl +?? Will +?? +2 vs. enchantment; immune to sleep +?? Melee, weaponname, 1d6+??, 20/x2 [Conditional modifiers like rage] +??/+?? Melee, weaponname/weaponname, 1d6+??/1d6+??, 20/x2 [Conditional modifiers like rage] +?? Ranged, weaponname, 1d6+??, 20/x2, 30'r +??/+?? Ranged, weaponname/weaponname, 1d6+??/1d6+??, 20/x2, 30'r (+1 racial vs. kobolds and goblinoids) Skills: ?? Points Class A/B: keep multiclass ranks separately +?? Skillname (Dex, +2syn) (ranks a/b) +?? Skillname (Str, +2 feat, acp) add acp if susceptible to armor penalties +?? Skillname (Int, +2 racial) ?/2 if cross classed +?? Skillname (Int, +2 tool) +00 Listen +00 Spot Feats: I - featname (optional brief summary) Clearly show provenience Hum I - featname (optional brief summary) Wiz I - featname (optional brief summary) Fig I - featname III - featname... Racial Traits: -brief summary -brief summary -brief summary Class Abilities: -brief summary -brief summary -brief summary Class Abilities: -brief summary of second class' abilities --delete this section unless wizard-- Spellbook: L0 DC ?? All cantrips L1 DC ?? Spell1, Spell2, Spell3 --delete this section unless sorceror or bard-- Spells Per Day ??|??/??/?? L0 DC ?? Spell1, Spell2 L0 DC ?? Spell1, Spell2 L0 DC ?? Spell1, Spell2 --delete this section unless special things are listed-- Special: List any special abilities or miscellaneous information that doesn't fit anywhere else on this character sheet. You can include animal companion stats, mounts, familiar's benefits and stats, horse/steed statistics; Domains; ... Important: in case of mounts, write here the carried weight too. -- delete this line: Note Delete 'containers' not used --- delete this line --- Equipment: Outfit (worn, weight) ?? free outfit Armor (worn, ??wt) ??gp Robe (worn, ??wt) ??gp Weapons: Weapon or item (Location, ??wt) ??gp Weapon or item (Location, ??wt) ??gp Bow or Crossbow (left shoulder, ??wt) ??gp Quiver or Javelin Tube (right shoulder, ??wt) ??gp Belt: (?? wt) ??gp Belt Pouch: (?? wt) ??gp Soulder Sack: (?? wt) ??gp Scroll Case: (?? wt) ??gp Backpack: (?? wt) ??gp Sadle Bags: (?? wt) ??gp Not carried into arena: (?? wt) ??gp Carried weight: Mount Carried weight: Gold this round: ?? gp Spent this round: ?? gp Total Gold Spent: ?? gp Gold Remaining: ?? gp Items Used: ___________________________________ Default tactics: Spells Memorized (?/?+bonus +d/?+bonus+d): 0- 1- 2- Against meleers: ... Against spellcasters: ... Against ranged fighters: ... Optional: background, personality, manners, attitude, motivations, likes, desires, goals, aspirations, fears, habits, quirks, the way your PC looks when first encountered; past fights; Anything else. Oponents results: |
| fluiddragon11-11-03, 12:01 PM | edit: I changed the sheet to reflect the changes Mo made so that both sheets are correct. You can use the sheet here or at the begining of the gladiator build thread. Ok. I put lines in where Mods start the copy and end it. Courier is not a good reading font. So where you would need to read text that consits of more than some modifiers are I used the arial font so it is easier on you eyes. I adjusted the layout a tad so information is not jumbled together. All you have to do is copy the below code in to note pad and do a "replace all" replace < with [ and > with ] and your sheet is ready to post. --- delete --- Note: Moderators start copy from top line to botom line --- delete --- <b>___________________________________</b> <FONT=courier> <I>Optional: Short character description, or favoured quote, or the like. Max. 3 lines.</I> <b>Name</b> Gender: Race: Sizecategory, ??'??" tall, ?? wt, ?? yrs old Colortype hair; colortype eyes; tonetype skin Alignment: Class: ??st lvl Speaks languagename, languagename, and languagename Str ?? +-? pts ?? +-racial <Conditional modifiers like rage> Dex ?? +-? pts ?? +-racial Con ?? +-? pts ?? +-racial <Conditional modifiers like rage> Int ?? +-? pts ?? +-racial Wis ?? +-? pts ?? +-racial Cha ?? +-? pts ?? +-racial <b><color=blue>Hit Points ??</color></b> <b>AC ?? (?dex, ?size, ?armor, ?shield, ?feat...), Touch ??, Flat ?? </b><Conditional modifiers like rage> -- delete -- *note Mage Armor + Shied do NOT add to Touch AC -- delete -- Init + (?dex, ?feat) BAB +?? Grap +??(?str, ? feat...) <Conditional modifiers like rage> Speed ?? (base ??, load 0/33/66/100, armorcategory) Weight Carried: ?? .lbs <u><b>Saves:</b></u> Fort +?? (?base +?con +?enh...), Refl +?? Will +?? +2 vs. enchantment; immune to sleep <u>Combat:</u> +?? Melee, weaponname, 1d6+??, 20/x2 <Conditional modifiers like rage> +??/+?? Melee, weaponname/weaponname, 1d6+??/1d6+??, 20/x2 <Conditional modifiers like rage> +?? Ranged, weaponname, 1d6+??, 20/x2, 30'r +??/+?? Ranged, weaponname/weaponname, 1d6+??/1d6+??, 20/x2, 30'r (+1 racial vs. kobolds and goblinoids) <u><b>Skills:</b></u> ?? Points Class A/B: keep multiclass ranks separately +?? Skillname (Dex, +2syn) (ranks a/b) +?? Skillname (Str, +2 feat, acp) add acp if susceptible to armor penalties +?? Skillname (Int, +2 racial) ?/2 if cross classed +?? Skillname (Int, +2 tool) +00 Listen +00 Spot <u><b>Feats:</b></u> I - featname (optional brief summary) Clearly show provenience Hum I - featname (optional brief summary) Wiz I - featname (optional brief summary) Fig I - featname III - featname... </font> <font=arial><u><b>Racial Traits:</b></u> -brief summary -brief summary -brief summary <u><b>Class Abilities:</b></u> -brief summary -brief summary -brief summary <u><b>Class Abilities:</b></u> -brief summary of second class' abilities </font> <font=courier> --delete this section unless wizard-- <u><b>Spellbook:</b></u> L0 DC ?? All cantrips L1 DC ?? Spell1, Spell2, Spell3 --delete this section unless sorceror or bard-- <u><b>Spells Per Day ??|??/??/??</b></u> L0 DC ?? Spell1, Spell2 L0 DC ?? Spell1, Spell2 L0 DC ?? Spell1, Spell2 </font> --delete this section unless special things are listed-- <font=arial><u><b>Special:</b></u> List any special abilities or miscellaneous information that doesn't fit anywhere else on this character sheet. You can include animal companion stats, mounts, familiar's benefits and stats, horse/steed statistics; Domains; ... Important: in case of mounts, write here the carried weight too. -- delete this line: Note Delete 'containers' not used --- delete this line --- <b><u>Equipment:</b></u> Outfit (worn, weight) ?? free outfit Armor (worn, ??wt) ??gp Robe (worn, ??wt) ??gp <u>Weapons:</u> Weapon or item (Location, ??wt) ??gp Weapon or item (Location, ??wt) ??gp Bow or Crossbow (left shoulder, ??wt) ??gp Quiver or Javelin Tube (right shoulder, ??wt) ??gp <u>Belt:</u> (?? wt) ??gp <u>Belt Pouch:</u> (?? wt) ??gp <u>Soulder Sack:</u> (?? wt) ??gp <u>Scroll Case:</u> (?? wt) ??gp <u>Backpack:</u> (?? wt) ??gp <u>Sadle Bags:</u> (?? wt) ??gp <u>Not carried into arena:</u> (?? wt) ??gp Carried weight: Mount Carried weight: Gold this round: ?? gp Spent this round: ?? gp Total Gold Spent: ?? gp <b>Gold Remaining:</b> ?? gp <u>Items Used:</u> </FONT> <b>___________________________________</b> Default tactics: Spells Memorized (?/?+bonus +d/?+bonus+d): 0- 1- 2- Against meleers: ... Against spellcasters: ... Against ranged fighters: ... Optional: background, personality, manners, attitude, motivations, likes, desires, goals, aspirations, fears, habits, quirks, the way your PC looks when first encountered; past fights; Anything else. <u>Oponents results:</u> |
| Pitlords11-11-03, 12:03 PM | Fluid, items used have to be in the mod copy&paste section, this way we don't have to go back to the stone age to check a build. |
| fluiddragon11-11-03, 12:09 PM | Pit: Fixed Any other comments? I'm trying to make it easy for mods to use and easy for everybody to read and find the info fast. |
| fluiddragon11-11-03, 01:06 PM | Dragon Rain is ready and using the new standard sheet. edit Gage is ready, I got rid of the rope trick scroll untill we decide how to handle it Xaverr is ready I'll mod 2 fights this week. I'd like to do one with mounted combat so I can figure out the rules. -fd |
| Magagumo11-11-03, 01:09 PM | Hurtz and Octavian will be posted this evening, I was distracted by a friend's new mini-campaign last night, and went to lend a new GM a little assistance ^_^ Oscaridad has been updated (name changed to Noir Cauchemar). Pyre has been issued a challenge by Zorander. Though I understand the "doesn't fight" roll hasn't been made yet, I wanted to mention it ^_~ |
| Jindl11-11-03, 03:02 PM | The Elder challenged the Harvester and the Harvester accepted. Read all about it on the roleplay thread. -Jindl |
| MotherBast11-11-03, 03:24 PM | Dragon Rain? Any chance hes kin to my own Candessa Rain? |
| fluiddragon11-11-03, 03:55 PM | Originally posted by MotherBast Dragon Rain? Any chance hes kin to my own Candessa Rain? Twice removed on his fathers side LOL edit: He's elf she's human, unless you want her to be distantly elvish, he could be her grand father or great grand father. Humans age so quickly. I didn't relize I was taking her last name when I made him. Just wanted a monk with 'dragon' in it. If you want to make a back story email me. |
| Moherajikuyx11-11-03, 04:41 PM | Originally posted by Magagumo Pyre has been issued a challenge by Zorander. Though I understand the "doesn't fight" roll hasn't been made yet, I wanted to mention it ^_~ DON'T WORRY about. In the case that a level results uneven, I roll, even if there are challenges. This way there won't be any disparities, and no one has to worry. |
| fluiddragon11-11-03, 05:04 PM | Hey ever think about holding a Big Fight? Like a tag team match, or 2 gladiators vs and equal ECL encounter? Could be fun. I saw a documentary recently about the roman games and they did all sorts of things. It would be cool to fight something other than characters some time. Maybe do something special 1 a month, and the fight counts as moding 2 fights? What do ya'll think? |
| Magagumo11-11-03, 05:17 PM | Well, I just need to say that if I have earned any credits, I would like to run no more than 2 fights this week, (preferably 1) as I have two exams in the next two days, and my Saturday is booked solid. I can handle 2, just no more ;) |
| Moherajikuyx11-11-03, 05:18 PM | Or 1 vs. 2 lower levels :) I'd leave that to single players, in another form: in the real dnd thread, and everyone keeps his character. This way it's clearly another thing, and we can have quietly fun, with no need of a mod. I'd love it. We're all even with the credits: all at 0 next week. Request noted Mag :thumbsup: |
| Jindl11-11-03, 05:21 PM | Fluid, I like the idea, but it would have to be exhibition only (ie. the winners don't advance a level, and nobody uses any resources.) I have a suggestion to incorporate this idea: In a previous post I mentioned the "problem" of the highest level characters fighting the same opponents again and again. My solution was to put a freeze at a certain level (like lvl 8) until 8 characters reach that level, then unfreeze and continue on. That way, the high level characters get to face some new opponents. Incorporating fluids idea for exhibition matches, gives the high level characters fights to participate in (just for fun or roleplaying reasons) while they are frozen. In order to get the remaining 7 characters to level 8, it will take 4 weeks. So I suggest we go ahead with this plan, and once we get 3 or 4 at level 8 we do a group fight against an ECL 12, or a 2 vs 2 character fight. What do you think? -Jindl EDIT: Karse is back, but he is different now... |
| fluiddragon11-11-03, 05:59 PM | Sounds like a great idea, we have fun and try out some new strategies, but don't loose anything. Any specific ideas? My idea: Hordes of low level undead lead by a more powerfull undead would be cool. Be a neat tagteam event too. |
| Draloth11-11-03, 06:17 PM | All of the above sounds pretty darn interesting, although Id guess at it being rather time consuming to execute. |
| Moherajikuyx11-11-03, 06:24 PM | Yeah. That's why I say we do it handling our pcs. I updated the default sheet; there are a pair of changes from the original: I put the 3 lines of text in the copy & paste section (it's the only part that gets carried in the fights, I think that's not too much) and little else. We'll begin using it with no exceptions from next week on. |
| Sir Cridion11-11-03, 07:03 PM | Originally posted by barrel_master Just a question to snark... how do you plan on developing your paladin... I just don't want our dudes 'Paul Hector' and 'Moon moon' to end up the same. Also, can you use a shield while using a lance 2 handed? I know you can use a lance with one hand but I've never seen the 2-handed + shield rule. AR, have a plesant day. :) Hey barrel, I've got a paladin build too... I'd like to ask the same question to you; I don't really want Faldion to be the same as Paul. Thanks |
| barrel_master11-11-03, 08:51 PM | Originally posted by Sir Cridion Hey barrel, I've got a paladin build too... I'd like to ask the same question to you; I don't really want Faldion to be the same as Paul. Thanks I'm not entirely certain... if Snark goes blackguard I'll probably most go pure paladin with power attack and maybe cleave and perhaps a pegasus mount (although, it feels cheesy as snark has one already.) Also, I've updated Octavian... I was really quite suprised that I won. |
| Jindl11-11-03, 09:16 PM | @barrel_master and Sir Cridion - I just wanted to say that from my point of view, the two of you have very different characters from each other and from Skymoon Moonbow. Skymoon is an elven paladin, which has its own strengths and weaknesses (although the latter are very few...mainly just the low Concentration skill, eh Snark!). Faldion has a level of fighter, which may prove to be a better optimization of the paladin, getting the mounted feats earlier, while delaying and slightly reducing the strength of the mount. Paul appears to be much more of a baseline paladin (standard human, straight pally build) from which these other variations can be compared. I guess what I'm trying to say is your paladins are as different as Bruno, the Elder, and Ebelin. Different like Allister, Buttmunch, and Jindl... You get my drift? -Jindl |
| Magagumo11-11-03, 10:08 PM | Speaking of different builds, what's with the monk level, Cat? :confused: |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-11-03, 10:20 PM | birds: 2 gladiators: 0 Many questions arise here on my fight. Why didn't i draw the dagger like i said i wanted to make sure i was armed? Just out of curiosity? Plus on the two grapple checks that i did succeed i never did any dmg? When you succeed you still do the automatic dmg. Why also did i continue to grapple him while he was greasing himself? My character is not a moron, but obviously was played like one. I had two potions of healing but only drank one? really, whatever. Tellish |
| Magagumo11-11-03, 10:33 PM | Let's see.. I missed the unarmed damge, sorry about that (my mistake, though he would have still lived). As for your potion, you said drink it at less than 10 hp. Well, you drank it at 9 hp, gained 9 more hp, and were slowly reduced. You'll note, that you were dropped from 10 hp to death in one round, before you had a chance to act (Octavian made the AoO for unarmed touch, then he MM you, then HAWK killed you). As for the grappling, you only stated that you wished to grapple him, I looked for signs that perhaps you would abort to just punching him, but your tactics stated that you clearly wished to grapple him to death. Since his AC was higher than his lowly touch, I figured this was not a bad tactic (and he only had +5 on his grapple vs. you). As for wishing to be armed, you needed one hand on the net in order to keep him from running off and rebuffing, and the other hand was necessary for the unarmed touches. |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-11-03, 10:39 PM | Maintaining hold of the net was never part of the plan, plus he was still casting through it. No bola tactic, no draw dagger to stay armed, nothing. And just a note, i DON'T need a free hand to start a grapple. I can still hold a light weapon and begin a grapple, that's the whole point to having a light weapon so that i have a bit of advantage in a grapple since i don't have IUS/IG yet. Plus the other point of making sure i was armed was to make sure he didn't cast spells in my face like he did. gah. Maybe next fight i'll just stand still and do nothing, might be less painful to read. On a brighter note, i'm one loss closer to Rito. :) bs Tellish |
| KerlanRayne11-12-03, 03:43 AM | @ Tellish: I know it can be frustrating when a mod plays your character in ways that confuse you. Happens to me too. In the last fight, you had Tomar trying to trip animals when in his tactics it said to only Trip the other character, but can't do anything now. KerlanRayne |
| Moherajikuyx11-12-03, 04:23 AM | Yo peepolz! I'm doing the pairings today, in 2-3 hours. CU l8r! |
| Irlina11-12-03, 07:27 AM | Well, unfortunately I don't see a char from Cat with lvl.2 since I would like to challenge him and buy some dogs to catch him. However I'd like to know whether anyone here has found a successful build for a ECL+1 character. With succesful I mean not just blowing gold for expensive scrolls away or winning by lots of luck. |
| Caterane11-12-03, 07:54 AM | @all: This "freeze" thing isn`t a bad idea but we can cheese it up a bit. Even better (my favorite) would be something like freeze the character for pairings and give him a monster as foe, some kind of "bonus fight" where you don`t advance but may earn money (less than with a normal pairing, of course, one quarter perhaps). This way the higher level characters don`t advance and we give the following PC time to get up while at the same time not punishing, yes even rewarding, high level gladiators for their success. Also note the increased variety of the arena! Ok, opinions please |
| Caterane11-12-03, 07:59 AM | @Irlina: Perhaps I should post myself personally so that you can have your revenge. I sent you a private message but your folder was full. Don`t know if you got it. I`ll try it again in an hour or two. @Magagumo: I think the monk level is a perfect addition to Ebelin. +2 to all saves, Unarmed combat, improved grapple, Monk`s Ac, 7 skillpoints to Listen, and more. I wanted to build some kind of Bladesinger, melee and magic, and one weakness of all wizards is the danger of being grappled. Additionally I now have another option to finish opponoments at my dispossal. Oh and wait until I get Bilo in my grasp :devil: But from now on I`m going straight Eldritch Knight. |
| Pitlords11-12-03, 09:26 AM | Blip - pairings procedure began - characters frozen from now on - blip blip |
| barrel_master11-12-03, 10:09 AM | Originally posted by Jindl @barrel_master and Sir Cridion - I just wanted to say that from my point of view, the two of you have very different characters from each other and from Skymoon Moonbow. Skymoon is an elven paladin, which has its own strengths and weaknesses (although the latter are very few...mainly just the low Concentration skill, eh Snark!). Faldion has a level of fighter, which may prove to be a better optimization of the paladin, getting the mounted feats earlier, while delaying and slightly reducing the strength of the mount. Paul appears to be much more of a baseline paladin (standard human, straight pally build) from which these other variations can be compared. I guess what I'm trying to say is your paladins are as different as Bruno, the Elder, and Ebelin. Different like Allister, Buttmunch, and Jindl... You get my drift? -Jindl Thank you for your input Jindl, it's much appreciated. @all, concerning the 'credit system', although this may be difficult to implement... why don't we make it so that players can use credits to advance their characters? Basicly keep it as is now (where if everyone have 1 credit then we all go back to 0) but make it so that if a person has 3 credits (or some number like that) they get to advance one of their dudes... |
| Moherajikuyx11-12-03, 10:29 AM | Smile... You were PAIRED! Sadly this week there were three levels uneven. Furthermore, I'm modding 2 fights even though I've got the roster and only 2 chars fighting. If any new pals want to stand up and try to moderate, they're very welcome!! *edit* barrel - come on... We're testing the builds not the arena organization :) |
| barrel_master11-12-03, 10:32 AM | ^You're probably right... I just thought that it may alleviate the whole 'we don't have enough mods' situation. |
| sshuit11-12-03, 10:50 AM | I'd be happy to mod a fight..... I'm new to Core Arena but have run AD&D on and off for over 10 years. Drop me a line if you want me to run something (Preferably a low level fight) On the same topic is there a "FAQ for moderators" somewhere?... I'm not clear on all of the rules specific to this tournament. |
| Moherajikuyx11-12-03, 12:12 PM | Great! People! Hail the new moderator: sshuit! I just gave you a lvl 2 fight. The rules are all in the Gladiators thread. Read carefully the first post by me :) Have a good time! |
| Magagumo11-12-03, 01:48 PM | Ok, a couple of things: Tellish, you can't use bolas as a AoO, they are a ranged weapon. As for the unarmed attack, that was aiding your touches, so that was what i assumed you were using. He was taking 5' back every round, to avoid having to cast defensively, but he had to Concentrate through the net. If you let go of the net, he could have sprinted off with expeditious retreat. Since there's a limit to how long you could run (especially with a Con of 10), he could have gotten away, he's hawk charging you every round, with Magic Missiles to the face to boot. Now then, Moh, you gave me three fights this week, I simply can't run them all. I have two tests in the next two days (so I can do one Friday) and my Saturday is filled with time spent with my significant other. This leaves Sunday to run a second fight and do homework. If at all possible, please see if someone has room, I don't. Finally, you sent Moh's tactisc to me, and I sent them on to Snark but honestly glanced at them one to understand what was going on. You might want to send revised tactics, just in case ;) |
| Caterane11-12-03, 02:13 PM | Finally, you sent Moh's tactisc to me, and I sent them on to Snark but honestly glanced at them one to understand what was going on. It happened again??? :nonono: Anyway. If you redistribute Magagumo`s fights please let him keep the Harvester fight. I`ve already sent tactics to him. Oh and Mo :heehee Edit: Tactics received from Mo |
| barrel_master11-12-03, 02:22 PM | I'll take one of maga's fights if you don't mind moh, prefrebly a low level one. |
| Moherajikuyx11-12-03, 03:48 PM | Fight given to barrel. I sent you my tactics?!? Well... Last time I did it, I won. :smirk: *edit* darn grammar |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-12-03, 04:22 PM | @Mag: It's ok. I'm over it. The bola wasn't on the AoO, it was on a readied action, but that's fine. I can live with that. I just didn't think you'd have me not equip a weapon and smack him instead of grappling through grease is all. But it's done, and we move on to another week, no sense me whining about it any further. My tactics are sent for both my guys to Cat and Fluid Tellish |
| Moherajikuyx11-12-03, 04:43 PM | Originally posted by Magagumo Now then, Moh, you gave me three fights this week, I simply can't run them all. I have two tests in the next two days (so I can do one Friday) and my Saturday is filled with time spent with my significant other. This leaves Sunday to run a second fight and do homework. If at all possible, please see if someone has room, I don't. Finally, you sent Moh's tactisc to me, and I sent them on to Snark but honestly glanced at them one to understand what was going on. You might want to send revised tactics, just in case ;) I gave one of your fights to the really kind barrel_master. Now, I understand, everyone has other things to do. If you guys can't make it, simply remove a pc from the weekly fights, like LLMadCow did: this is the easiest way. |
| Caterane11-12-03, 04:46 PM | Confirmed. Tactics from Mo and Tellesh received. On Wednesday, as I like it. @Mo: I`ll definitely challenge you next time :D |
| Magagumo11-12-03, 04:57 PM | Yea, I would simply recommend putting a statement like "If two grapple checks fail, or he is Greased, smack him with my Might Fists of Justice" That will free me of any worries ^_~ Thank you barrel_master!! I am most appreciative for the help. Cat, I have your tactics for Harvester. And *gasp* I have all my tactics sent out already, must be because Jindl is not running a fight of mine this week.... ^_~ :-P |
| Jindl11-12-03, 05:04 PM | Originally posted by Magagumo And *gasp* I have all my tactics sent out already, must be because Jindl is runnign a fight of mine this week.... ^_~ :-P I think you mean, "because Jindl is NOT running a fight of mine ..." Mag, please, lay off the pipe... ;) -Jindl PS: I'll get the Elder's tactics to you shortly. |
| Moherajikuyx11-12-03, 05:20 PM | Originally posted by Caterane Confirmed. Tactics from Mo and Tellesh received. On Wednesday, as I like it. @Mo: I`ll definitely challenge you next time :D Uhm.. Did I do anything so stupid? :drool: |
| Caterane11-12-03, 05:30 PM | Uhm.. Did I do anything so stupid? No no!! Just keep sending me Rito`s tactic when he fights against the Harvester :P |
| Moherajikuyx11-12-03, 05:38 PM | Darn, I knew that was it... Brain status: :b: |
| sshuit11-12-03, 05:54 PM | Sorry if this is the stupidest question ever, but where can I see the pairings? I'm supposed to moderate a fight I think :D sshuit |
| Caterane11-12-03, 05:58 PM | There are no stupid questions, only stupid answers (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=926274#post926274) |
| MotherBast11-12-03, 06:29 PM | Ok, Candessa's tactics sent to Jindl. Brackin's tactics sent to barrel_master, again. This is almost the same darn fight. Lol, btw, I still look forward to reading how I lost vs. Iron. If I had to guess I'd say Iron took over half my HP in one hit, and then the horse killed me after I grappled him. Also, I am now moding Lora's fight for the 4th week in a row. Im sorry, but she is now my character. I am claiming her. I know her better than I know my own gladiators. I hope she thought to bring a melee weapon to this one though lol. Well, get me your tactis Snark and Cow. I'd like to have this fight run by the weekend, as I (finaly) have a gaming group. |
| Sir Cridion11-12-03, 09:29 PM | @Jindl True I guess. It's just that after I made Faldion, I felt sort of like I was copying Skymoon and Paul. @Barrel_master I've sent in my tactics. Just a quick reminder, if I'm being tripped from my mount, I can counter with a ride check instead of a str/dex check. Thanks |
| fluiddragon11-12-03, 10:23 PM | Jindle, sshuit, & Mag Tactics sent for Xaverr, DragonRain, and Gage. Let me know if you didn't get them. Recieved tactics for Hurtz |
| SnarkHunter11-12-03, 11:59 PM | grr double posts make baby jesus cry. |
| SnarkHunter11-12-03, 11:59 PM | Tactics sent for Bilo and Hanz, recieved for Mo and Magagumbo x2. |
| sloisel11-13-03, 12:06 AM | I think Gage has an illegal crafted cloak of resistance. Cloak of resistance has CL 5, Gage is sorcerer level 4 (unless I'm missing something.) If you're thinking about whether CL is a requirement, I invite you to read DMG 215, Caster Level: "For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator's caster level must be as high as the item's caster level [...]" I don't think Gage has enough leftover cash to pay full price for the cloak. Sébastien Loisel |
| Alterlat11-13-03, 12:38 AM | Tactics for Jagath sent. This going to be a tough fight. |
| MadCowTemplate11-13-03, 02:51 AM | @MO, I thought I was going to start moding this week? You seem kind of tight on the moderater-to-fight ratio. I'm not bothered, more just confused. Did you need something from me? EDIT: I noticed my mail was set to hidden , thus preventing me from receiving from potential contenders. I don't know if this is relavent, but for the record, I am now un-hidden. @Mother, hands off my babe! :) nootch, since you seem pretty keen on Lora, I may send you some off the record info on her to use as you see fit. Oh, and uh ... no, she didn't bring a melee weapon. I SWEAR I told her to take one, but she just refused. This is what I get for sponsering an ex-adventurer, they're always so cocky and bull-headed... stop staring at my head! Anyway, even though it's stupid late and I open tommarrow, I'll probably write up and send her tactics tonight. :whatsthis I'm in that place between awake and asleep where I'm too tired to realise I should be asleep. :mymy: Can't go to sleep, clown'll eat me... Can't go to sleep, clown'll eat me... |
| Moherajikuyx11-13-03, 05:26 AM | http://forum.igz.it/images/icons/lookaround.gif Ehm... Yes that was it MCT, it's because you had the address hidden... http://forum.igz.it/images/icons/embarassed.gif |
| Moherajikuyx11-13-03, 05:28 AM | I gave you Marcus Letiv II, Irlina vs. Peter Patroclus, barrel_master: fluiddragon already has two other fights. OK? fluid - if you already recieved the tactics send them to MadCowTemplate sloisel - in case of errors with the equipment, consider the item not bought and write it in red on the sheet in the fight: give him the money back (always in red on the sheet). |
| fluiddragon11-13-03, 05:50 AM | Originally posted by sloisel I think Gage has an illegal crafted cloak of resistance. Cloak of resistance has CL 5, Gage is sorcerer level 4 (unless I'm missing something.) If you're thinking about whether CL is a requirement, I invite you to read DMG 215, Caster Level: "For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator's caster level must be as high as the item's caster level [...]" I don't think Gage has enough leftover cash to pay full price for the cloak. Sébastien Loisel I may be wrong but I always thought that CL was not a requirement for magic items but just a guideline. In Cloak of Resistance: Craft Wondrous Item, resistance, creator’s caster level must be at least three times the cloak’s bonus; Price 1,000 gp (+1), 4,000 gp (+2), 9,000 gp (+3), 16,000 gp (+4), 25,000 gp (+5);Weight 1 lb. Since gage is 4th level 1*3=3 he could make it. If CL is a requirement not a guidline like it was in 3.0 (Maybe they did indeed change it). Then I would never have taken the craft wondrous item feat at 3rd since you cannot create any items even if you meet the spell requirements, they have an arbitrarilly high CL. Many minor items have absured CL's like a 1000 gp pearl pf power CL 17, but item descritiption states: creator must be able to cast spells of the spell level to be recalled. This is just an example I can find many more. If his cloak is indeed illegal as sloisel claims, then take it off the equipement list for the fight and I'll replace the gold on the sheet when I update the character and change the feat. I wouldn't have gotten it if I had to pay full price. If the low level magic items do indeed have a IMO absurd CL requirement why is the feat available at 3rd level? Your caster level can't meet the requirements of any item. The feat should have a prereq. of 5th level then, as there are no Items after a quick scan of 1000 gp cost items that you can possibly make untill you are at least 5th level. And the cloak of resistance is the only one you can make. Even bracers of armor +1 have a CL7 requirement. -fd |
| MadCowTemplate11-13-03, 05:52 AM | Ah yes, I knew it must be me. :) Sure! Sounds good! No problem! :bigeyes: He has no idea what he's gotten himself into. The poor sap. Silence, MuGu! What would a silly moogle know of such things! "Don't worry guys. Nothing will go wrong as long as I'm around. Ah-hah-hah-hah-hah!" —Ben Dixon. May he rest in peace. For convenience, here's me: Yume Uroko (YumeUroko@aol.com) If I have the tactics, I will most likely run it on Friday or Saturday. |
| Moherajikuyx11-13-03, 09:34 AM | Yeah sloisel, that sux, I do believe it's an error too... But it's clearly stated. :( Shall we vote about it? What do the others think? |
| barrel_master11-13-03, 10:58 AM | In the SRD, the cloak discription states Cloak of Resistance: These garments offer magic protection in the form of a +1 to +5 resistance bonus on all saving throws (Fortitude, Reflex, and Will). Faint abjuration; CL 5th; Craft Wondrous Item, resistance, creator’s caster level must be at least three times the cloak’s bonus; Price 1,000 gp (+1), 4,000 gp (+2), 9,000 gp (+3), 16,000 gp (+4), 25,000 gp (+5);Weight 1 lb. I interpret this as meaning the caster level must either be 5 or 3x the items bonus, whichever is higher... Basicly, I'm saying that it's illegal, fluid should be allowed to get his money back and to choose a new feat. However, he may have to do this after this week's round of fights. |
| Jindl11-13-03, 11:14 AM | I agree about the money back thing... but I think the feat stays. He already fought and won a fight since taking that feat afterall. And, if he wins this fight then he will be a 5th lvl caster and able to make the cloak... Sometimes you have to take a feat before you can use it... like when a 1st lvl rogue takes combat expertise (but has no Bab to use it with). That's just the nature of feats and min/maxing. -Jindl |
| sshuit11-13-03, 11:24 AM | Received tactics for Jagath and Dragon Rain. Will try and run the fight tonight and post some time tomorrow. sshuit |
| fluiddragon11-13-03, 11:59 AM | I would never have taken the craft wondrous item feat AT ALL if I knew that the CL was a requirement now not just a guideline like it was in 3.0. The CL requirement of crafting magic items seems quite arbitrary, and not inline with the spell requirements. and I would not have taken the feat in any case then. At 5th I can make 1 item, cloak of resistance, at 7th I can make 1 item, Bracers ac1. By that time the gp value of competitions is higher and I could by better equipment than my CL would let me make. If I can't get rid of the feat I'll retire Gage after this fight win or lose. Maybe I'll make Gage II maybe not. I don't want a feat that is nearly useless to me. Not trying to be pissy or anything but I can't afford to waste feats in this build and going strickly core with the CL requirement I feel Craft Wondrous Items, now that I understand the rules, is a wasted feat. The whole point in making Gage was to prove sorcerers could be viable. Wouldn't be much of a test with such a wasted feat. It goes from something useable and saves you money in the arena to nearly unusable as the number of items you can actually create is very very limited, and frankly you can just purchase them before you could hope to make them. |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-13-03, 01:03 PM | Ya sux taking feats early when they aren't much use. Look at Kelek. He has two-weapon fighting/weapon finesse. I haven't used any of those feats as of yet, but i know they will be usefull down the line for the build i'm making. The same could apply with your craft feat. Sure, right now, it's not that usefull, but later on you'll be crafting huge amounts of stuff at a reduced cost. If what you're saying is true that it's useless at 5th as opposed to now, then it's useless now isn't it? Because then your saying you took a feat to get a cloak of resistance now, but will never craft anything else. Hold on to it and keep crafting. It will pay off later on for sure, u just might be a little handicapped for a few fights. Tellish |
| Jindl11-13-03, 01:08 PM | Re: "Useless" feats - The Elder picked up Craft Wondrous at 5th level, and has yet to make anything (lousy CL 8 required for headbands of int...) But when he gets to 8th level, watch out! Gonna make lots of stuff... The Elder also had to pick up Skill Focus (KS-Arcana) at 6th level just so he could become a loremaster at 8th (lousy feat prereqs for prestige classes...) So that's 2 "useless" feats that he has, and he is still doing okay. Both of those feats will serve their purpose later, but I had to go ahead and pick them up now (so's I can get craft staff and other fun stuff later...) -Jindl PS: Snark, I PM'd the tactics for Karse. Mag, I'll get the Elder's tactics to you by tonight. |
| sshuit11-13-03, 01:50 PM | How do those 5x5 rocks in the arena work for combat? Can you attack from the ground adjacent to the top with the usual penalties? Or do you need a reach weapon? Thx if this has been answered before. sshuit |
| fluiddragon11-13-03, 03:20 PM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket Ya sux taking feats early when they aren't much use. Look at Kelek. He has two-weapon fighting/weapon finesse. I haven't used any of those feats as of yet, but i know they will be usefull down the line for the build i'm making. The same could apply with your craft feat. Sure, right now, it's not that usefull, but later on you'll be crafting huge amounts of stuff at a reduced cost. If what you're saying is true that it's useless at 5th as opposed to now, then it's useless now isn't it? Because then your saying you took a feat to get a cloak of resistance now, but will never craft anything else. Hold on to it and keep crafting. It will pay off later on for sure, u just might be a little handicapped for a few fights. Tellish The situation is different. I wouldn't have taken the feat untill 12 or 15th level if that, now I understand the rules correctly. It was going to be the only craft feat I took, just due to the sorc.'s nature. I don't want a feat at 3rd that I can't use effectively untill 12-15th level. And being able to make a Cloak of Resistance +1 at 5th and Bracers +1 at 7th is not my idea of an effective feat. I only took it when I chose it based upon a missunderstanding of the rules, not to enhance a multi-class down the road or join a PrC. Had I understood the rules I would not have taken it at all. So it is a different sitation. I don't want it if it is nearly unusable untill I hit the high levels, certainly not at level 3. Heck skill focus basket weaving is better at that level, at least I could sell some baskets. Its not fair to Sloisel and Magagumo but it looks like gage will be retired after this fight. I'll probably redo him and you can bet no craft feats will show up untill they are actually usefull, if at all. So my appoligies in advance to Sloisel and Magagumo. I hope Buttmunch wins so at least he can advance, and the fight isn't in vain and a waste of Magagumo's time. edit: I can understand not letting him change his feat after being in a fight with it, so I'm not pushing that issue, its pretty clear that nobody is in favor of this. But I don't want to play the character with a crappy feat choice based upon a missunderstanding either. So I'll retire him |
| Caterane11-13-03, 03:52 PM | Hey Fluid, why not just change the feat? After all, you effectively make this fight with one feat less and retireing a character just because of this minor mistake sounds a bit harsh to me. I won`t stand in your way when altering your sheet (can`t speak for the others though) but if you still want to scrap him that`s up to you. |
| fluiddragon11-13-03, 04:03 PM | Originally posted by Caterane Hey Fluid, why not just change the feat? After all, you effectively make this fight with one feat less and retireing a character just because of this minor mistake sounds a bit harsh to me. I won`t stand in your way when altering your sheet (can`t speak for the others though) but if you still want to scrap him that`s up to you. I'd change the feat after fight, but it seems like this wouldn't be kosher with the board, and may not be fair to others if they wish they made different feat choices. A sorcerer is harder to build for the arena and with the limited feats sorc get I don't want to feel like I am at a continual disadvantage untill the feat is actualy useable. (Its less useable already to a sorc with the limited number of spells they know) I would keep the char if I could change the feat but I can see the other side of the argument as well. I like him and I don't want to scrap him, but I'd rather start fresh if I'm going to be stuck with the feat. -fd |
| Caterane11-13-03, 04:37 PM | Now just change it and don`t concern yourself with the others. I don`t think there`s one complain about it. But to ease your conscience: I think the board would much rather prefer a level 4 character than a new level 2 one. You might have noticed our concern about too few high level characters and replacing Gage wouldn`t do us any good. |
| barrel_master11-13-03, 05:05 PM | Draloth's dude seems to have 1 too many feats... if he does have too many what should I do? If I allow him to pick which one he should get rid of it could be viewed as unfair... should I just pick the last feat he took? http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1765374#post1765374 fluid >> Tough break, personaly I wound't mind you changing things... |
| fluiddragon11-13-03, 05:09 PM | If the board doesn't care if I change the feat after the match with buttmuch then I'll change it, and keep the higher level character. Good point about that Cat. Mag you can disregard the revised tactics I sent and go with the original. -fd |
| Prexx11-13-03, 05:09 PM | I have a question. How would the rules on invisiblity work with regards to the sleep spell? Would casting it cause the caster to become visible? And if so, would the caster become visible when he begins casting the spell, or when he finishes casting? |
| MadCowTemplate11-13-03, 05:21 PM | One more vote for fluid changing not scrapping. I have tactics for Peter Patroclus but not Marcus Letiv II. Just an update. RE: Extra feat. My instinct would be to look at how the feats are listed as being acquired and remove the one that is not legit. I believe you're looking at Dorrin? The dwarven Barbarian/Fighter? He has feats listed as... Feats I – Power Attack II- Weapon Focus: Dwarven Waraxe Fig I – Cleave Since he does get a feat at character 1st level, and one at Fighter 1st level, but not character 2nd level (which is what that looks like to me), I would say eliminate Weapon Focus. That seems like the most arbitrary way to decide. EDIT: Invisible Sleep "The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe." (PHB p.245, Invisibility) Sleep targets an area defined as "One or more living creatures within a 10-ft.-radius burst." (PHB p280, Sleep) Thus, sleep counts as a spell whose area includes a foe. An invisible person who casts sleep becomes visible. I would say it happens at the end of the casting time, at the point in time where the "attack" actually occurs. And so, like this, "Where is he? ... There he is! I'll—Zzz... |
| Sir Cridion11-13-03, 05:46 PM | Fluid, you're being too hard on yourself. It was a rules misunderstainding that caused you to take that feat, not a strategic choice. I'd say people are in favour of you keeping Gage and simply fixing his feat. |
| sloisel11-13-03, 05:47 PM | They were careless when they set CL for some items such as the weaker pearls of power, given the new (or, according to some quarters, merely clarified) rule that CL is a prerequisite this time around. They've already confirmed that the CLs of some items are askew, but that's core rules for you. Cheers, Sébastien Loisel |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-13-03, 05:47 PM | That is correct madcow. You only become visible after the sleep as gone off. I'm not against fluid changing it either. Tellish |
| Magagumo11-13-03, 05:52 PM | I got no probs with feat changing after the fight. As for 4th level characters sticking around, I'm all for it!! And by for it, I mean I'm glad other people (like Moh) keep their characters after a few losses... Snark and I are just too eager to try out new ideas and keep on tweaking (Though Ander's levels in Rogue certainly crippled him, and Oscaridad/Noir's massive Strength seems to be working just fine too... Maybe all 3 of my chars will survive another week!?! :-D) Now then, back to studying for my second exam! |
| Moherajikuyx11-13-03, 06:02 PM | Originally posted by fluiddragon If the board doesn't care if I change the feat after the match with buttmuch then I'll change it, and keep the higher level character. Good point about that Cat. Mag you can disregard the revised tactics I sent and go with the original. -fd Go on and change the feat, that's absolutely not a problem, it's even quite in the arena spirit for what I see: this is a place where we try out things after all. sloisel - the rocks are seldom used, if anyone goes on top he will be at reach with all the adjoining places, gaining a +1 for higher position. Read the sneaky guidelines for hide & move silently, there's the link on the Gladiators thread first post. Good luck with your first fight! |
| Caterane11-13-03, 09:07 PM | Hear hear I finished the first fight of the week. Tried something new Kelek vs Iron the Panza (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1832948#post1832948) |
| fluiddragon11-13-03, 09:34 PM | Nice narative Cat! Always something new, I love it. -fd |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-13-03, 10:39 PM | Allister vs Mara is compelete Just a note when you look at the online roller. I initially thought Mara moved at 40' and thus was able to totally dominate early on. So start the rolls from the marker "START NEW HERE". Use Mara for her rolls and Allister for his. Also due to the insurmountable number of hippogriffs, rolled 3 each time, i stopped using the online roller after awhile simply because the immense amount of time require to enter them all manually. I really really pray i ran it properly. Hope you enjoy Custards last stand, the edited version. Tellish |
| LLMadCow11-13-03, 10:56 PM | Waiting for results... :) |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-13-03, 10:56 PM | Very awesome narrative. An entertaining read. Only two points. I believe i only fired one arrow, which means my other sassone does is salvageable. Secondly, Iron can't direct the spiders. He can't communicate with them, thus they would just sit there in a square until he visually saw me and ordered them to attack. Who knows how different things would have turned out, hard to say. I do know that Iron is a very tough opponent for me to have beaten. No gripes though. I knew i had a very tough fight. Congrats on the win Iron u earned it. Tellish |
| sshuit11-14-03, 12:23 AM | 1st fight I've modded. Please let me know of my varied and sundry errors. Good fight by both combatants. |
| SnarkHunter11-14-03, 12:59 AM | The post so nice I said it twice... |
| SnarkHunter11-14-03, 12:59 AM | Hmm only one that I noticed: Shield of faith potions last 1 minute not 1 hour. Don't think that ever affected things though! Good fight, I think you'll do fine. |
| LLMadCow11-14-03, 02:19 AM | Please add Clìodhna d'Elrich to the roster of 2nd level characters. She is ready for the arena and next week Allister will be sitting out while I try out this new PC. Let's see how she does... |
| fluiddragon11-14-03, 05:38 AM | Originally posted by sshuit 1st fight I've modded. Please let me know of my varied and sundry errors. Good fight by both combatants. Just a quick run through to see If I won. Good narative, too bad I couldn't hit a barn at first! I think you did pretty good. I think he should have taken a shot at me in round 1. It might have been outside of his first range increment, but might have helped him it he got lucky (I didn't check the ranges or line of sight maybe he couldn't have hit. Other than that and what the others mentioned you did a good job. I don't undertand why he waited for 3 rounds to do anything, but it was in his tactics, wierd. Anyway it looks like you did a good job of sticking to the tactics and you wrote an interesting fight. Course I'm biased, but I still enjoyed it. It was a good fight from both characters, they were pretty evenly matched. |
| Galamdring11-14-03, 06:36 AM | :mymy: I won?!?! :mymy: Well done, Tellish, nice flavour text and a clean fight.:tiphat: |
| Alterlat11-14-03, 06:56 AM | @fluid: Actually, the waiting 3 rounds was intended to make you waste your stunning fist, but in end it got used before the total defense even started. I was pretty happy with how the fight was run. Ddin't quite work out as I'd planned, but then they never do. Nice work sshuit. |
| fluiddragon11-14-03, 07:41 AM | Hey good strategy then. I thought it was a good match up 50/50 it could have gone either way. |
| Alterlat11-14-03, 08:41 AM | Yeah, it was a close fight in the end. The Shillelagh oil was a good idea. Thats an obscenely good buff for 50gp - both ends of the staff hit like greatswords. I'll have to remember it. |
| fluiddragon11-14-03, 08:54 AM | Originally posted by Alterlat Yeah, it was a close fight in the end. The Shillelagh oil was a good idea. Thats an obscenely good buff for 50gp - both ends of the staff hit like greatswords. I'll have to remember it. :teach: :D +1 greatswords. I was going to make a druid monk till I saw you could get the oil and not need a level of druid. |
| Irlina11-14-03, 09:34 AM | Hm, considering the oil. I take a large Club- dealing d8 damage. It can be used with 2 hands for medium chars (and still costs nothing :) ). Now I use this funny oil and get 3d6+1 damage. Now I use enlarge for 4d6+1? Any error? All for 50gp? And everybody is allowed to use clubs... |
| Jindl11-14-03, 10:21 AM | Originally posted by Irlina Hm, considering the oil. I take a large Club- dealing d8 damage. It can be used with 2 hands for medium chars (and still costs nothing :) ). Now I use this funny oil and get 3d6+1 damage. Now I use enlarge for 4d6+1? Any error? All for 50gp? And everybody is allowed to use clubs... You can do this, but you take a penalty to hit because the club is the wrong size for your character (I think its a -4 to hit...) -Jindl |
| Irlina11-14-03, 10:52 AM | @Jindl: only -2, p.113. So for -2 to hit 1d6 damage, no really bad deal. |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-14-03, 11:14 AM | Although club is a simple weapon, the greatclub is not, it is considered a martial weapon. The regular medium club goes to 2d6+1, add the enlarge person, and it goes to 3d6+1. You would not suffer any attack penalties. A large club would go from 3d6 to 4d6+1. With the -2. The greatclub (martial weapon) goes to 3d8+1, and with enlarge goes to 4d8+1. A fighter/sorc could easily accomplish this without taking any negatives. Normally i'd say get a masterwork one, but it wouldn't stack with shillelagh anyhow. Or start with a large greatclub who's base dice is 2d8. With shillelagh it will go up to 4d8+1. And from there enlarge will make it 6d8+1. Since you got a soser lvl, you may wanna true strike that puppy, cuz it's gonna hurt. Heck, with true strike, you may as well power attack that sucker for all you got and double the power attack dmg. Orcish Bab/Sorc feat: power attack Lets see: orc +4 str (22), +enlarge (28), +rage (26) = +9 strength modifier. Two handed and power attack for 1 gives you +15 dmg. 6d8+16 dmg. Keep in mind i did this cheaply as was stated. It could go way up with just a bit of extra cash (bull's strength, heroism, etc...) The min/med/max dmg on the sucker is: 22/43/64. There are NO gladiators that would survive ONE median hit at 2nd lvl. Heck, there are few 5th lvl gladiators that would survive one good thumping with it. Tellish *EDIT AGAIN @Jindl It's only -2 because shillelagh doesn't actually increase the size of your weapon, on the dmg relative with size. If it did actually increase the size and you had a large club, or large greatclub then you'd suffer -6 total in that case. *EDIT My last edit didn't go through. So i'm re-editing it with the proper stats. IMO greatclub is still a club, just as a greatsword is still a sword |
| Irlina11-14-03, 11:25 AM | @ Telish You thought in the same way as I. However, you only take -2 for using a large club (so you don't need a fighter lvl). And I'm not sure whether you can take Greatclub since it is not mentioned (only club+quarterstaff). p.278 pc "It deals damage as if it were two size categories larger." So only damage is changed, not actual size. True Strike is really nice, since it only has Verbal Comp.- no armor penalty. So get enlarged (with high reach) and have fun with a melle wizard/sorc. Hm... |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-14-03, 11:30 AM | Yup...i temporarily forgot about that, and edited my post. Probably whilst you were typing urs. Tellish |
| Jindl11-14-03, 11:32 AM | @ Tellish - I don't think shillelagh can be applied to a great club. Also, as Irlina posted, the penalty is -2 for using a large (and therefore two-handed) club. The spell effect doesn't change the size, it just changes the damage (so no additional penalty for increased size.) As for the damage increase: 1d6 normal -> 1d8 for Large size (nonmagical) -> 3d6 shillelagh -> 4d6 enlarge person. So I think Irlina was right. BTW: If you guys don't mind, I want to post a character using this idea (going Barbarian...) -Jindl |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-14-03, 11:44 AM | Ya, i saw that earlier and changed it before there were any replies. Dang edits aren't going through. Tellish EDIT (instead of making a new post) Pyre vs Zorander is done. Please don't blame me. Blame the online roller. Use Zorander for his rolls. Pyre did get one but it was in error. When i initially rolled dmg for the bow, i only had 1d8+2 instead of 3d8+6, and thus there is a concentration roll on Pyre's side of the rolls which would have been made if it was just the 10pts of dmg. Tellish |
| Jindl11-14-03, 01:00 PM | You've gotta be kidding me. Twice in a row? Let's not even talk about the odds of that. -Jindl EDIT: Tellish, can you include the link to the rolls that the online roller made for this fight? |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-14-03, 01:38 PM | But of course good sir. http://krisinchico.brinkster.net/rolldata.asp Click on search database. Use Zorander and Pyre respectively. The dmg on the crit should read 8+2+4...the +4 being the dmg modifer for the bow. I kept the inital 8+2 from the accidental non-crit dmg. Telllish ps. as i see a few posts down, i even forgot to favored enemy bonus. grr. my bad. |
| SnarkHunter11-14-03, 01:38 PM | Yeah. Zorander's new name is now Critty McCrits-a-lot. Lord of Critshire downs. In other news, Karse and Noir battle for freedom and money in the depths of the underdark! Thrills! Spills! Tune in soon, you won't want to miss it! |
| Magagumo11-14-03, 01:38 PM | This is just insult to injury, sorry, but the crit damage would have been 3d8+12, as Zorander deals 1d8+4 damage vs. elves (Favored enemy and all). Huh, two crits... this only reminds me why I am taking Improved Critical longbow at 9th level ;) Hmm.. Genetics exam in an hour, then I'll be running the Gage vs. Buttmunch fight. Interesting note on True Strike... If you made the concentration check while grappled, you could cast that, then use it to make an attack against your opponent with a natural attack or light weapon (+16 to your normal attack.. might be enough if you have a nasty poisoned weapon or could force sneak attack (arcane trickster). Just something to consider :). |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-14-03, 01:43 PM | Originally posted by Magagumo Interesting note on True Strike... If you made the concentration check while grappled, you could cast that, then use it to make an attack against your opponent with a natural attack or light weapon (+16 to your normal attack.. might be enough if you have a nasty poisoned weapon or could force sneak attack (arcane trickster). Just something to consider :). I have other ways of forcing a sneak, but yeah. That's almost what i'm gunning for with Kelek. I need to win one more fight though, and his next lvl is assassin lvl. So add death attack to that. He won't be going arcane...that's already being done. Tellish ps. can't believe i forgot something as simple as favored enemy. so if you're looking at the online roller, read them as... 8+4=12 8+2+8=18 that's for a total of 30pts of dmg, bringing Pyre to -11...a clear decap. replying to Jindl's post below (trying to save space) Zorander has favored enemy elves...making his total bonus to dmg +12. the dice are 8+2 (those are the extra dice), his modifier to dmg 4x2=8. So 8+2+8 is the correct one. With all this talk of enlarging weapons, maybe Zorander should get a Large Composite strength bow and get a permanent enlarge spell on him. LOL Making each arrow do 3d6 + bonuses. Tellish |
| Jindl11-14-03, 02:02 PM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket ps. can't believe i forgot something as simple as favored enemy. so if you're looking at the online roller, read them as... 8+4=12 8+2+8=18 that's for a total of 30pts of dmg, bringing Pyre to -11...a clear decap. Close, but not quite there yet. The damage should be 3d8+12 {3 x 1d8+4} Therefore the online roller should read ... 8+4=12 8+2+6=16 that's a total of 28pts of dmg, bringing Pyre to -9... -Jindl EDIT: Okay, the 8 was the first die and the 2 was the second die... I though the 8 was the total of both dice (oops.) Based on this clearer understanding, I respectfully withdraw my above comment. @ Tellish - Unfortunately you can't get a large composite bow. The rules on using weapons that are the wrong size say that you adjust the category of the weapon (light, one-handed, or two-handed) by each step in size. If the weapon is adjusted beyond these categories, then you can't wield it. That's why you can't have a Large greatclub, or a Large composite bow. The size change would adjust them beyond two-handed. ANNOUNCEMENT: New gladiator entered (on page 1, in Turnip's old spot. Turnip is now on page 3, inactive). He's my attempt to implement Irlina's idea of using shillelagh+enlarge person on a Large club. -Jindl |
| barrel_master11-14-03, 03:16 PM | Brackin vs Kern up http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1838738#post1838738 As always, if you see problems tell me. |
| SnarkHunter11-14-03, 03:17 PM | Fight posted! Largely enjoyable too...aside from the 20 rounds I skipped in the middle. But even those weren't to bad. Feel free to follow the link up there and read mine too! |
| Jindl11-14-03, 03:19 PM | Originally posted by barrel_master Brackin vs Kern up As always, if you see problems tell me. Only one mistake: Every time Brackin successfully begins a grapple, he deals unarmed damage. So he actually would have gotten in 2 more hits, for the two times he started a grapple. EDIT: Karse is deleted for now. I've got to figure out a way to get around the drawbacks to having an LA +1. The lack of hit points, lack of Bab, it's just too much to overcome. Still, Noir did get lucky (he shot me when I was invisible... then I roll a fumble on my attack!) I guess it's just a lucky weekend for Mag's characters... -Jindl |
| Magagumo11-14-03, 04:04 PM | We'll see how Bruno favors, Jindl. He's always been my favorite in the end :-D Hmm, the enlarge person is tempting, especially since the straightforwardness of this character differes greatly from the (soon-to be) sneaky monk and the spell-casting, manipulative gnome. The penalty to dexterity and the bow's inability to take advantage of the strength are detractors, certianly, but worth investigating. I can't promise I won't still go shadowdancer, but this guy could easily just continue on a ranger/fighter track (Maybe Horizon Walker? We'll see ;)) Both exams are out of the way, so now I will begin the kobold/sorceror fight. |
| Prexx11-14-03, 04:45 PM | <sigh> I'm changing Pyre's name to Pyre the Cursed. Please update the roster to reflect the new name. |
| Jindl11-14-03, 06:05 PM | Ha ! I am reply 2000 !!! Tactics sent for the Elder. I have received tactics for everyone, will be running fights tomorrow. -Jindl |
| Pitlords11-14-03, 06:13 PM | :rolleyes: |
| Moherajikuyx11-14-03, 06:16 PM | Hi guys! Cat - Great job as always! Great read! ToK - About the poison thing, I think we can safely consider poisons as buffs: once one is proficient - like the assassin - he may apply them before the fight. So keep on! :) Although Mara knows where the druid stopped she cannot target a square that she does not have line of sight and thus cannot shoot Allister. Is this true? I didn't know it... :embarrass: SH - compliments for Noir vs. Karse! |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-14-03, 07:30 PM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx ToK - About the poison thing, I think we can safely consider poisons as buffs: once one is proficient - like the assassin - he may apply them before the fight. So keep on! :) Is this true? I didn't know it... :embarrass: tres true. You can shoot at an empty square all you want, but you still need to know what square you're hitting. In this case Mara couldn't even see the square to target the square. Just like it is in spells. Line of sight to a target is still needed regardless of spell or archery or whatever. So for those who may be thinking about this, YES, that does mean you cannot target a fireball in the center of OM. You can see the outside edges and that's as close as you can target it. So if, for example, i cast OM, and move back to be at the far edge in the rear, and obviously you can't see me, but know (made listen) that i'm still inside and you fireball the outer edge, i'm still completely safe. As far as the poison thing goes, i am going the route of the assassin. Just wasn't counting on facing Iron just yet. But that's fine though. It gives me incentive to work up a rematch challenge story for Kelek. Tellish |
| fluiddragon11-14-03, 08:56 PM | Would touch spells with an Instantaneous duration count as allowed prebuffs, as you can hold the charge indeffinitely? |
| LLMadCow11-14-03, 11:35 PM | Well, she has yet to be acknowledged, but Cliodhna d'Elrich is just about complete. She is surely ready for the arena combat, and I am just fine tuning the last details. I would love to hear what people think of her. What do you think of her.. Name? Skill selection? Equipment? Class choices? She is the only Cleric / Wizard in the arena - I thought it was about time that we had one. I figured it could be fun to see in the arena and I have had a lot of fun working out her character backgroud. Cliodhna d'Elrich can be found here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1808991#post1808991)... |
| Magagumo11-15-03, 12:04 AM | One note, you could also fireball directly above the mist (where you can see) and count on the 20' radius to still nab your opponent. Most important rule, never forget the third dimension when aiming your spells, this leads to fireballed melee party members, when you could have simply fireballed the ginat's upper half ^_^. Btw, Gage vs. Buttmunch is posted |
| MotherBast11-15-03, 07:52 AM | Question MO, in the Paul vs. Johan fight, in round 6 you list Johan as having 32HPs, and Paul hits him for 21. The fight is then over. I was wondering what happened to Johan's other 11 HPs? |
| fluiddragon11-15-03, 07:52 AM | Good job on the Gave/Buttmunch fight Mag. I lost due to inferior tactics. I forgot all about entangle arrgh! I should have cast fly first it would have made a difference. |
| Moherajikuyx11-15-03, 09:03 AM | Johan vs. Paul now finished; sorry about guys. |
| MotherBast11-15-03, 09:47 AM | Your welcome Johan, and I'm sorry Paul, lol. |
| barrel_master11-15-03, 12:09 PM | I'm curious, how did johan end up with 32hps? In the end this wouldn't really change anything... I'm just wondering if this is a mistake. Concerning the standard sheet... will ALL characters be required to use it? How much variation can we put into the sheets? |
| LLMadCow11-15-03, 12:17 PM | I have recently posted a new character, and I am using the Standard Sheet+. I have made some changes here and there to customize. Added some BOLD or Italicized portions, rearranged a few things, and added a few things to make my sheet more understandable and better customized for my character. I suggest using the Standard Sheet as a guideline and go from there. Do not remove anything that would have pertinent character information and add mainly what is needed... |
| Jindl11-15-03, 12:19 PM | I also am confused about the Johan vs Paul fight: In Round 2, the cleric cast Aid which gave him 8 temp hp's for a total of 32. In Round 4, the paladin hit the cleric dealing 27 hps. But the cleric's total hp's remained 32? What happened to the damage the paladin dealt? {I think the cleric should have had 5 hps remaining...} In Round 6, the paladin hits the cleric for 21 hps. This damage is shown as being subtracted from 32 hps. {If the cleric had only 5 hps from the earlier hit, this would have killed him and the paladin would have won.} What happened? -Jindl EDIT: Thanks for the props, Gage and Bruno (and Magagumo...) "You will never earn the awards of the arena, because you will always be begging easy wins from the leftovers of Jindl, he is the only true druid that fights there! " -and- "Glancing at Gage’s body, Bruno notes the many, small bite wounds… 'I bet you did, kobold, I bet you did… Of course, Jindl would have done it better.'” :) |
| MotherBast11-15-03, 12:55 PM | I just looked at the fight again, and Johan was hit in round 4. The kill in round 6 would have happened, as 21 + 27 = 48, well beyond the 32 HPs Johan had. It seems you had it right the first time MO, except you just listed the wrong HPs in round 5, and I confused ya when I said Johan should still be alive. It seems Paul should have won after all. |
| Jindl11-15-03, 01:21 PM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket tres true. You can shoot at an empty square all you want, but you still need to know what square you're hitting. In this case Mara couldn't even see the square to target the square. Just like it is in spells. Line of sight to a target is still needed regardless of spell or archery or whatever. So for those who may be thinking about this, YES, that does mean you cannot target a fireball in the center of OM. You can see the outside edges and that's as close as you can target it. So if, for example, i cast OM, and move back to be at the far edge in the rear, and obviously you can't see me, but know (made listen) that i'm still inside and you fireball the outer edge, i'm still completely safe. This "line of sight" and "line of effect" stuff is pretty confusing... So, I looked them up in the PHB. Here's some quotes: PHB, Glossary, pg 310 line of sight: Two creatures can see each other if they have line of sight to each other. To determine line of sight, draw an imaginary line between your space and the target's space. If any such line is clear (not blocked), then you have line of sight to the creature (and it has line of sight to you). The line is clear if it doesn't intersect or even touch squares that block line of sight. If you can't see the target (for instance, if you're blind or the target is invisible), you can't have line of sight to it even if you could draw an unblocked line between your space and the target's. -and- PHB, pg 310 Ranged Attacks: With a ranged weapon [which includes targetted spells and ranged touch effects, see below], you can shoot or throw at any target that is within the weapon's maximun range and in line of sight. ... -and- PHB, Glossary, pg 310 Line of effect: Line of effect tells you whether an effect (such as an explosion) can reach a creature. Line of effect is just like line of sight, except line of effect ignores restrictions on visual ability. For example, a fireball's explosion doesn't care if a creature is invisible or hiding in darkness. -and- PHB, pg 176 A line of effect is cancelled by a solid barrier. It's like a line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it's not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight. You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect (such as conjuring a monster). You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast, such as the center of a fireball. -and, finally- PHB, pg 175 Target or Targets: Some spells, such as charm person, have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. ... Effect: Some spells, such as summon monster spells, create or summon things rather than affecting things that are already present. You must designate the locatin where these things are to appear, either by seeing or defining it... Some effects are rays (for example ray of enfeeblement). You aim a ray as if using a ranged weapon ... As with a ranged weapon, you can fire into the dark or at an invisible creature and hope you hit something. You don't have to see the creature you are trying to hit, as you do with a targetted spell. Okay, that's a lot of information. It starts by saying that you can't fire a ranged attack without line of sight (which is blocked by blindness, invisibility, total concealment, or total cover). So no shooting arrows at invisible targets, or targets totally concealed in fog, or firing rays of enfeeblement when blinded. Then it says that you can use any non-targetted spells without line of sight, you only need line of effect. So you can summon creatures to appear beyond your line of sight, or use a fireball inside the total concealment of the fog cloud (because a fireball is not a targetted spell.) But then it contradicts itself, by saying that you can fire a ray just like a ranged weapon, into the dark or at an invisible creature. So in one place it says you need line of sight to use ranged attacks, and in another it says that you can fire ranged attacks without line of sight. Confused yet? I am... But I think the "correct" interpretation is that line of effect is needed for any attack, period. And line of sight is needed only for targetted spells (ie spells that say target in the description, so rays are not targetted spells.) So fire arrows at invisible creatures and suffer the 50% miss chance. Launch fireballs into the fog becuase its not a targetted spell. Send the ray of exhaustion at the Elder when Bruno is blinded, and suffer the 50% miss chance. But don't target hold person if you can't see them. This is my interpretation. What do you guys think? -Jindl |
| Moherajikuyx11-15-03, 06:44 PM | Originally posted by MotherBast I just looked at the fight again, and Johan was hit in round 4. The kill in round 6 would have happened, as 21 + 27 = 48, well beyond the 32 HPs Johan had. It seems you had it right the first time MO, except you just listed the wrong HPs in round 5, and I confused ya when I said Johan should still be alive. It seems Paul should have won after all. :nonono: this time I really messed it up, darn. I'll put it back as it was before. Darn. |
| Moherajikuyx11-15-03, 06:52 PM | LoE stuff - Makes sense, Jindl. standard sheet - all new characters, from last week on, will not be set to ready if they don't comply with the standard sheet! The others should comply when the players get the time to edit it. Don't edit it till the fight, remember! :) Bye guys! |
| fluiddragon11-15-03, 07:19 PM | I'm running Tomar vs Hurtz. I'll post tonight or tomorow depending how long it takes. -fd |
| barrel_master11-15-03, 07:20 PM | Why does it say that Paul won 1.7k gp? Have I incured some sort of penalty? |
| Moherajikuyx11-15-03, 07:58 PM | That fight's doomed :| |
| MotherBast11-15-03, 08:26 PM | Finished Lora vs. Hanz.... 4 minutes of action in this one. It took 2 hours to run, and will probably take just as long to post. |
| fluiddragon11-15-03, 08:29 PM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx That fight's doomed :| LOL They both lost, a horde of smurfs came in and suffocated them with mushrooms. They fought hard but they really didn't stand a chance. Smurf-ette collects the purse and advances to level 5. Actually I just finished it, now I'm trying to think of a good story to go with it. I just notice Mo you gave my 2nd fight away. I have 3 char this week but only 1 fight. If another mod needs me to run a fight forward me the tactics and I'll run it tomorow night. -fd |
| Caterane11-15-03, 09:09 PM | Concerning Standard sheet: I will not use it. I often check the other gladiator`s sheets and I like looking at their characters but when I have to concentrate mainly on the mass of information that isn´t fun and I haven`t bothered to check the new gladiators just because I don`t want to work through this sheet. Same goes with Rito - one of the few combatants I didn`t really check. There is so much unneccessary information on it and it doesn`t look good. The font is ugly. I put much time in arranging my sheet and I regulary check it for improvements. I love my sheet. I like looking at it. If there are any informations I should add I`ll do this but I want to decide how my sheet looks like. Of course, I can only speak for myself. |
| Jindl11-15-03, 09:55 PM | Regarding the standard sheet, I agree with Cat. Having now made 2 characters using the standard sheet, I don't like it. I think Mo had a great idea in mind when creating the standard sheet, but IMO, it's not user friendly or fun. And the font is ugly. My suggestion is to take out the different font and colors of the standard sheet. Then make it the suggested sheet, but allow players to have variation if they desire. After all, if a character has a cluttered or difficult sheet to read, that character will suffer come fight time when the moderator can't find that vital info. Allow players to have variation in the sheet, both in colors, font, etc. It adds to the fun of the arena, and the enjoyment of building and fleshing out a character, both stats and personality. -Jindl EDIT: As the arena bard, why not give Cat a chance to devise a good semi-standard sheet for new gladiators to use as a starting point? |
| fluiddragon11-15-03, 10:05 PM | I third the motion. I hate the font too, thats why I changed the font in places so that it is actually readable. I think if the pertinant information is there and organized then it shoud be fine. It is only to a players advantage to make it as easy to read as possible. I think it would be better if we make a standard where there are lines or other markers where an admin can use as a guide to cut and paste. Then inside these markers make a requirement where you must have certain information present. As long as all required info is there and there is some sort of marker for mods to cut and paste then it should be cool. -fd |
| MotherBast11-15-03, 11:06 PM | my God.... took me 3 and 1/2 hours to type up that fight..... Its done now though..... enjoy, its 6 hours of my life I'll never get back..... LOL. |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-15-03, 11:19 PM | Originally posted by Jindl But I think the "correct" interpretation is that line of effect is needed for any attack, period. And line of sight is needed only for targetted spells (ie spells that say target in the description, so rays are not targetted spells.) So fire arrows at invisible creatures and suffer the 50% miss chance. Launch fireballs into the fog becuase its not a targetted spell. Send the ray of exhaustion at the Elder when Bruno is blinded, and suffer the 50% miss chance. But don't target hold person if you can't see them. This is my interpretation. What do you guys think? -Jindl You are absolutely 100% correct good sir. But you can't target the fireball to hit the center of the OM, because to put the 'seed' there, you need to be able to target the actual square, which you cannot. What they mean by the fireball example, is if someone is in the OM and is within the blast radius, he/she is still a 'target per se' of the inferno that spreads into the OM and must make all required saves. Tellish |
| Caterane11-16-03, 04:11 AM | Good Morning friends. Man I had a nightmare! I dreamed about a devil disguised as a white Alp goat that wanted to steal my beloved character sheet and... :mymy: all new characters, from last week on, will not be set to ready if they don't comply with the standard sheet! The others should comply when the players get the time to edit it! .....WHAAAAAAAA!!!!!! *casts Magic circle against evil around character sheet* |
| LLMadCow11-16-03, 04:26 AM | Okay, the truth of the whole issue is that there are key things that MUST be included on the character sheet. I have used my own MODIFIED version of the existing character sheet for my most recent character, but I have a number of changes. I would like to make some recommendations... 1st - Make initial guidelines for what EVERY character sheets must include. 2nd - Make secondary guidelines based on class, that must be included if character has said class; i.e. - Bards must include this info, Wizards this, blah blah... 3rd - Take the time to vote on what is required... |
| Moherajikuyx11-16-03, 08:01 AM | :rofl: Of course, to comply with the new character sheet means to post all the info requested in the correct place. Stuff as color, font and so on is freely editable, don't worry Cat! :D *edit* furthermore, I'm very open at modification proposals, as you saw already. |
| barrel_master11-16-03, 11:26 AM | ^Okay, it's just a little disconcerting to see 'check character sheet' next to your dude. Also, I think I'm gonna finish my fights by tomorow. |
| sloisel11-16-03, 03:13 PM | And take a look at my Christmas decorations (http://www.math.mcgill.ca/loisel/blog/2003-11-15.23h19m01s/CIMG0048-small.JPG). |
| Magagumo11-16-03, 03:34 PM | Yea, I must admit I like my char sheet style, but please let me know if anything is missing or confusing, I've tried to include all petinent info in an orderly fashion. Elder and Harvester... this is gonna be interesting :) Not a huge point, just something I'd like cleared up... In the Hanz vs. Lora fight, Hanz feinted, at oone point (Shocking Grasp readied) and Lora fell for it... and that was the end of the round. NMow, unless I missed him running up to her, he should have then been able to attack her, since Improved Feint allows you to feint as a move-equivalent. Just a curiosity of mine, I don't belive it would have changed the fight's outcome (long-distance Thunderstone, wow, that was a nice throw) |
| barrel_master11-16-03, 04:09 PM | sloisel >> You krazy quebecer. |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-16-03, 04:13 PM | Originally posted by barrel_master sloisel >> You krazy quebecer. That's a lot of teddy bears. hehe. Do you sleep with them too for security? lol j/k Tellish |
| Jindl11-16-03, 04:13 PM | Thunderstone, range increment x 2 due to far shot = 40 ft. Starting distance between combatants = 205 ft. Single move of Spott = 40 ft. After Spott moves, Lora is at (-12, -1) which puts her 160 feet away from Hanz. That's in the 4th range increment for a penalty of -6 to hit. If Lora did not have the Far Shot feat, it would have been a -14 penalty for range. That feat earned her a +8 on that attack. Who says Far Shot isn't a great feat? But, in the fight, she missed anyway. And that means the thunderstone lands 4 squares away from the target, because it was thrown 4 range increments (see PHB, pg 158, Throw Splash Weapon). Since it has a 10'radius of effect, there is no way that Hanz was within the area, and he should not have been deafened. Also, about Hanz's feint attempts... you must be in melee to attempt to feint in combat (see the Bluff skill description). As Hanz was at range both times, he could not have attempted to feint. These items probably had little bearing on the fight, but I wanted to clarify them for future reference. -Jindl |
| Galamdring11-16-03, 04:55 PM | I have updated my character sheet. Although it is not complete, i have added some bits of usefull information and rearranged it. Still have to do default tactics and info on past fights. Hope it makes the moderators work easier. :) |
| Magagumo11-16-03, 05:38 PM | Without Far Shot, Lora could never have made the throw, as thrown weapons only have 5 range increments. Bless the feat. Phew, just finished that fight between Harvester and The Elder. Tactics were sound, and the fight was brutal and truely amazing. In the end the luck of die (as good and bad rolls occured on both sides) ruled the day. Congratulations to both combatants for an easy to run, easy to admire fight :) |
| MotherBast11-16-03, 06:07 PM | Bah, your right Jindil..... The stone would have been 4 away. I'm just so used to missing by one square. My bad. It only would have affected the Cat's Grace spell, however, as thats the only one he faild. Concerning the feints, the round he feinted and didn't attack was because he wasen't adjasent to Lora, and used his move to feint and couln't aproch to attack her. As far as feinting only being used in melee, I can see your point Jindil, but I had a sorta looser defination of melee combat. I was going by the idea that two combatents are in melee when they are fighting each other, not the more narrow defination they must actually be next to each other attacking. Though now, after giving it some thought, for D&D purposes, melee would mean they were withen melee range of one another, and I was wrong on that point. Still, Hanz lost the fight anway, so alowing him to feint from range gave him no real edge. |
| Jindl11-16-03, 06:10 PM | Bubo says that the meeting between Candy and Xaverr is posted. You don't want to argue with Bubo, do you? -Jindl |
| Caterane11-16-03, 06:14 PM | @Mag: An Area Dispel magic starts to check the highest enchantment (Fly) and if it doesn`t dispel it, it continues to check the next lower one until either one enchantment is dispelled or all enchantments are checked. I even explained this in my tactics to make sure there`s no mistake. Good night |
| fluiddragon11-16-03, 06:38 PM | Originally posted by Jindl Bubo says that the meeting between Candy and Xaverr is posted. You don't want to argue with Bubo, do you? -Jindl Good fight very entertaining, got beat by a girl! LOL. I can't stand SLEEP! From now on I'm riding Mr. Bubbles. |
| Sir Cridion11-16-03, 07:59 PM | Hah! Elder vs Harvester and Candy vs Xaver were hilarious reads. Cheers to the writers! :D |
| fluiddragon11-16-03, 09:29 PM | Hurtz vs Tomar posted |
| sloisel11-16-03, 10:25 PM | But don't target hold person if you can't see them. That's correct. If a spell is targeted, you have to see the target to shoot it. Can't magic missile an invisible guy at all, not even with a 50% miss chance, unless you can see invisible or something. Sébastien Loisel |
| sshuit11-16-03, 11:01 PM | Tools for moderating fights / Good way to print out arena. Hi there guys. I was wondering how the moderators ran fights... I tried to print out the arena but its too damn big to come out properly on my printer.... Are there any tools out there that you guys are using? sshuit |
| Jindl11-16-03, 11:38 PM | Snark has a Word friendly copy of the arena that I'm sure he'll be happy to email you. My apologies to Cat and Snark for my delay in running Bilo vs Ebelin. Not been feeling well today, but I'll have it posted by tomorrow night. -Jindl @ Mag - Cat's correct about the area dispel thing. Both castings would have automatically targetted fly (the highest level spell running). But since both attempts failed, this has no real bearing on the fight. Of course, if it had been a targetted dispel, it would be subject to mirror image, but then it could have had a chance to dispel all my current buffs. For future reference though... |
| Magagumo11-16-03, 11:52 PM | Actually, it says it targest the spells with the highest caster level (both 6th), it does not mention spell level. Thusly I rolled to determine which spell was effected, though I honestly admit to forgetting to roll vs. the next spell when the first failed to be dispelled. Sorry about that Cat (off-Mod rolling says fly got hit, not mirror image (20, 10), but I do believe the Elder could have used a scroll before he hit the ground, so he would have remianed within bow shot but not stabbing range). |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-17-03, 12:41 AM | Originally posted by fluiddragon Hurtz vs Tomar posted Just one point. In round 7, all i did was stand, i could still have attacked, albeit at -2. no biggy, needed a 20 to hit anyhow. i wasn't very energetic when i a wrote my tactics and just kept it plain. Next week i'll make a better effert to try and win. Tellish |
| Alterlat11-17-03, 02:15 AM | @Tellish: IIRC, you were using total defense on that round, which would have taken up your standard action, so you couldn't attack. This should also have prevented you using combat expertise, but I don't think it made a difference. |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-17-03, 02:56 AM | Ya, i re-read my tactics...i meant to say fight defensively, because i also said take a feeble swipe. No biggy...i got owned. Tellish |
| SnarkHunter11-17-03, 06:01 AM | @sshuit: hello sir, mod tools have been e-mailed for your enjoyment. @mother, a fine fight sorry for confusion re: fienting, not sure why I imagined that could be used at a distance. Also, when Hanz had the shocking grasp running; when he picked up the bow (or touched anything else actually) that would have activated the spell. That's something for everyone to recall about holding the charge... @jindle don't worry about it. I don't know when I'll get to the bruno/rito fight, but prolly after the homework pile is assualted successfully :(. |
| Caterane11-17-03, 06:24 AM | @Mag: On top of that: where was the silence? After destroying the last of his images I clearly wrote that I want to silence him and AFTER THAT use the bow to reach him. I am no archer and shooting arrows while getting hit by empowered shokcing grasps is absolutely stupid!!! And if the silence tactic would have failed I told you to go to step 3 and buff while staying out of range. Nothing. My tactics are clearly structured to easily access vital information. I even explain important rules! Sorry but it`s really frustrating to hold my tactics in one hand while reading a completely different fight on the screen. |
| Caterane11-17-03, 06:36 AM | @Snark: *lol* Just read your fight. What a brilliant idea!! That gave me back my mirth for today. Can someone please post the number of the Harvester vs Elder fight? Strangely my browser doesn`t do this anymore. |
| Moherajikuyx11-17-03, 07:39 AM | Yes, the un-fantasy settings are lovely :) Here's the fight: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1854821#post1854821 |
| Jindl11-17-03, 08:15 AM | Originally posted by Caterane @Mag: On top of that: where was the silence? After destroying the last of his images I clearly wrote that I want to silence him and AFTER THAT use the bow to reach him. I am no archer and shooting arrows while getting hit by empowered shokcing grasps is absolutely stupid!!! And if the silence tactic would have failed I told you to go to step 3 and buff while staying out of range. Nothing. My tactics are clearly structured to easily access vital information. I even explain important rules! Sorry but it`s really frustrating to hold my tactics in one hand while reading a completely different fight on the screen. Cat, I totally understand your frustration. Divergence from tactics has happened to me before as well. (Actually it happened in this fight for me too, as I had wrote that if I had 1 image or less, then I would recast mirror image.) But regarding the silence tactic, I would like to point out that the Elder had a rod of lesser metamagic - silent. He could have continued his shocking grasp assault using the rod, even if silenced. (Heh, I bought it just for that reason...) Still, it was a tough fight. I really thought you were gonna blind me in the first round (with my mighty +3 fort save, I couldn't have stopped you.) So I was really surprised when you didn't. But I'm sure the Harvester and the Elder will face each other again. :) As for Magagumo - Cat, please be understanding. Running a duel between spellcasters is really tough. I mean, how tough was it just having one spellcaster in the Jindl vs Skymoon fight? Magagumo had to deal with two spellcasters. So, its understandable that he made a couple of mistakes. He doesn't usually make many, or make the same mistakes again. As for duels between spellcasters, I hope I do a good job on Ebelin vs Bilo. That's a tough one to run. -Jindl |
| Caterane11-17-03, 10:35 AM | Yes you´re right Jindl, of course. Sorry Mag. Let`s just forget the issue |
| Moherajikuyx11-17-03, 11:35 AM | A goblin joins the arena, stinking badly :D Jindl what improvemnts do you suggest on the standard sheet? |
| sloisel11-17-03, 12:53 PM | What kind of vegetation is there in the arena? Does Plant Growth function in there? It requires brush and trees to function. Sébastien Loisel |
| LLMadCow11-17-03, 01:07 PM | I forget - have we decided if characters are allowed to buy magical ammo in quantites of less than 50? Since 50 +1 arrows cost 2350, can we get 10 for 470? Just checking. |
| Magagumo11-17-03, 01:08 PM | Yea., about Silence Cat, Jindl hit the nail on the head. In all honesty, I should have had Harvester use it... btu I hate seeing people use bad tactics (my personal failing as a Mod). As The Elder could simply have flown out of the radius of the spell (and his Will save vs. a silence on his items would have been almost automatically made), The Harvester shooting him was incredibly effective. Actually, The Elder probably would have died in another round or two, as your arrows were hitting every round(and that crit, oh how my heart broke to see it hit an image, I just love bow criticals :)). As for the shocking grasps, the fact that the Elder needed 13s actually made it reasonable to continue shooting him, luck just switched in those last three rounds. Anyways, that was just my take on the whole thing. Harvester is flat-out amazing, Cat, I expect he will annihilate his next opponent (and since that scroll of dispel magic was your only item used, I think you are in good shape, though I would have allowed you to cast it in the ring on the day prior to the battle, so it wuldn't have cost anything. Unless you were trying to keep the spell in the ring secret, I say you probably should be allowed to keep the scroll, making 5 arrows your only expenditure.) Unless you're buying arrows more powerful than your bow, or are looking for, say, +1 flaming arrows, there's little advantage to purchasing them over upgrading your bow (since the bonuses don't stack anymore). That being said, I figure purchasing magic arrows in clusters of 5 would be most appropriate. Allows good usage without being unnecessarily expensive, Oh, one other thing- When one is using expertise, you must be attacking as well. Thusly, you could fight defensively and use combat expertise, swing, then stand up from prone, but you cannot total defense and use combat expertise. |
| LLMadCow11-17-03, 01:23 PM | The arena is bland and flavorless. I am asking if the arena can have more flavor. I know I am biased here, but why can't the columns be trees? And why not have grass? Could rocks be bushes? If contestants were in agreement, could we have a small list of feature changes for each fight? A fighter may enjoy the plain arena, but a rogue might enjoy more variety. Is the ground sand? Gravel? Flat dirt? And these rocks, are they approximately 1/2 of a 5' sphere? Features could be nice with some general points and modifiers. I would love to see some 'Trees and Bushes! Put stuff in the way. And just for fun we can add a pool and a sandbox too!' I know it makes life difficult for moderators, but I will be back in the mess by the end of the month. |
| LLMadCow11-17-03, 01:29 PM | Quote by Magagumo Unless you're buying arrows more powerful than your bow, or are looking for, say, +1 flaming arrows, there's little advantage to purchasing them over upgrading your bow (since the bonuses don't stack anymore). That being said, I figure purchasing magic arrows in clusters of 5 would be most appropriate. Allows good usage without being unnecessarily expensive, So, I can buy, say Flaming Arrows, in packs of 5 for 335? Sound fair? |
| MadCowTemplate11-17-03, 01:31 PM | Okay, so, new respect for the other people that have been moding these things. Next time I shall do more research ahead of time and start sooner. Any way. Fight done, being written up. 22 rounds. There was a lot of fisticuffs for a fight between two magic users. I don't ever want to see that happen again. But then, if wishes were horses, then...paladins could ... summon the wish spell...? Umm...I'm gonna...get back to writing that up...and then sleep for awhile I think. |
| Caterane11-17-03, 01:48 PM | @Mag: I missed the rod. But if silence would have failed then step 3 describes my buffs. Anyway. Let`s just forget that. It`s ok and you have a point in using the horse for cover with which I didnt come up on my own. An thanks for the dispel scroll. But my luck :( Oh my. If someone casts Dispel magic on me 6 out of 7 enchantments drop while I don`t even dispel a single enchantment with 2 or 3 dispels. I don`t memorize ranged touch spells because they require a roll which I more often than not don`t make. Others might think otherwise because when they use it against me they score critical hits. If you have mirror image available, use it! You can be sure I won`t hit you until all images are down. Of course the images are critical hitted. Now I know why they all challenge me :rolleyes: Perhaps I should rename my characters, something like Ebelin "Fumbler" Barnahdy or The Harvester of Misfortune. That`s nothing against you now, Mag. Just wanted to explain the origin of my feelings about such happenings. @all: There`s one thing that worries me. If my mount dies - and the higher in level the sooner it does - I lose 400 Gold. If we repair weapons for free than companions should be treated equally. NO ONE would buy a hippogriph at later levels, spending 30000 Gold if the creature may die within a single round. To have companions resurrected some people might take the Improved familiar feat or buy a flying expansive mount. @LLMad: A tree doesn`t reach to the top and can`t be used as cover nor can you stand on a bush to gain higher ground. But the idea itself sounds good and I am open to new attractions. Perhaps we can build a second arena (more/less obstacles). |
| barrel_master11-17-03, 02:45 PM | http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1861925#post1861925 dorrin vs roger suprisingly close. |
| barrel_master11-17-03, 02:52 PM | ^I agree with cat concerning the mount... if say the mount is worth over 2000 gp I think we should be able to bring it back if it dies... |
| Jindl11-17-03, 03:18 PM | Originally posted by Caterane Perhaps I should rename my characters, something like Ebelin "Fumbler" Barnahdy or The Harvester of Misfortune. Hey, now. Both of those guys have 1 or 2 losses. Only Alathar has done better than that. I think they are both very successful characters (and damn scary to face.) I only challenged the Harvester because I thought it would make for a good story, and I was tired of fighting Bruno (over and over and over...) Originally posted by Caterane @all: There`s one thing that worries me. If my mount dies - and the higher in level the sooner it does - I lose 400 Gold. If we repair weapons for free than companions should be treated equally. NO ONE would buy a hippogriph at later levels, spending 30000 Gold if the creature may die within a single round. To have companions resurrected some people might take the Improved familiar feat or buy a flying expansive mount. I"m not sure I agree, because mounts are allies and I don't like the idea of free ressurection of allies (I view a mount to be like a one-shot scroll. A more expensive mount is just like a higher level scroll.) If you want a truly repairable mount, get a magic item (I figure the Harvester would go for an obsidian steed.) But if everyone wants to try this, I'll go ahead with it. I just think it shifts the balance away from classes that actually have to earn their mounts/allies (druids/rangers + paladins + wizard/sorcs). Originally posted by Caterane @LLMad: A tree doesn`t reach to the top and can`t be used as cover nor can you stand on a bush to gain higher ground. But the idea itself sounds good and I am open to new attractions. Perhaps we can build a second arena (more/less obstacles). As a mod, feel free to adjust the arena to fit your story, as long as the game mechanics of the arena stay the same. For example, your story might list the arena as a night club (heh :) ) but entangle would still work fine. The game mechanics must remain the same, even if the story indicates otherwise. Just like I am against random lighting, I am against random arenas. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." @ sloisel - Plant growth works fine, just like entangle does. There is assumed to be enough vegatation to support the spell. RE: Magical ammo. I have thought about this one before, also. And I think it is much like partially charged wands. You can't make a wand with less than 50 charges, nor can you make magical arrows in groups less than 50. So, I don't think you should be able to buy them in groups less than 50 (except for the unique ones, like arrows of slaying and such). If we do vote and rule to allow groups of 5, expect to see archers buying 5 bane (human), 5 bane (orc), 5 bane (elf), 5 holy, 5 unholy, 5 axiomatic, etc... As they know their opponents alignment and such before the fight, they can tailor their tactics without having to use divinations/ trial and error as they would in a regular campaign. So this becomes an unfair metagame edge. I think keeping the minimun group to 50 keeps this balanced. As characters reach higher level (and thus more $), we will see the purchase of magical arrows, even if they are bought 50 at a time. I'm considering having Jindl get a wand of dispel magic (10th caster level) right now, with 50 charges. Figure it should last him through the rest of the arena (and give me more space to memorize Ice Storm... :devil: ) -Jindl |
| Caterane11-17-03, 03:45 PM | @Jindl: How do you quote different postings in one post? When clicking on the quote button I always get the whole mail as one. Before I forget it: Elder has lightgrey as a color but that`s scrap. You don`t see a thing on a white background. I"m not sure I agree, because mounts are allies and I don't like the idea of free ressurection of allies (I view a mount to be like a one-shot scroll. A more expensive mount is just like a higher level scroll.) If you want a truly repairable mount, get a magic item (I figure the Harvester would go for an obsidian steed.) But if everyone wants to try this, I'll go ahead with it. I just think it shifts the balance away from classes that actually have to earn their mounts/allies (druids/rangers + paladins + wizard/sorcs). Class ability companions get better by level while my mount will always have 4 Hd - a joke at level 15. Yeah, Obsidian mount is cool but unless we let them be ressurected we`ll never see the more exotic mounts. And 20,000 Gold for a Pseudodragon sounds more like ten 9th level scrolls with the exception that it won`t kill anyone nor live long enough. Same goes for a hippo. 3,000 for a young trained one but 25 hp doesn`t sound all too long-lived in the arena. So why bother buying them? If we want to see exotic mounts and improved familiars then we must have them ressurected. And I don`t want to see every second character running around with a figurine of wondrous power animal. |
| Jindl11-17-03, 04:09 PM | Cat- To use multiple quotes, just type them in yourself using the following codes (replace { with [ and } with ] ): {Quote} Blah, blah, blah {/Quote} As for mounts, etc. I agree that the cost of a hippo or psuedo dragon is kinda high and risky given their survivability. But I think they are more than worth it (see below). But if you are a mounted character, I suggest using leadership to get a good mount, having ally class abilities (paladin/ranger/druid) or perhaps a planar ally or planar binding spell for casters. Or you could take enough ranks in Handle Animal to train the beast yourself and thus cut the cost of buying one significantly. As for Improved Familiars, the cost of the familiar is 100 gp, regardless of type. So a psuedodragon improved familiar cost the owner 100 gp and will cost 100 gp to replace if necessary. The class ability/ feat overrides the cost listed in the MM. For those characters who want mounted abilities without classes that grant good mounts, I suggest the magic items- obsidian steed or stone horse, or they can take the leadership feat and get a mount as a cohort (heh, another reason not to dump Cha...) All I'm saying is that having a mount is better than having a magic item that costs the same amount. The mount gets seperate actions (allowing you to make a full move and still attack, or attacking independently of you). The mount is a seperate target / hp sink. The mount even gets seperate AoO's. In this way it is much better than an equivalent value magic item. (A hippogryph is a much better buy than a +1 sword, for example.) The balancing factor is the risk that the mount may die and have to be replaced, whereas the sword is freely repaired. Free ressurrection on mounts makes this problematic, and I think you'll see characters buying mounts before they buy magic items if you do this. The only free ressurrections for allies I can see are for: 1. Druid/Ranger special companions (they were free anyway.) 2. Paladin's special mounts (they are free.) 3. Leadership cohorts (they are free to acquire and free to replace, but they depend on an extra feat and points in what is commonly considered to be the dump stat.) Cheap ressurrections (100 gp) for familiars. All other allies are bought at market price and must be replaced at market price (unless you want to pay for a true ressurrection, which may be cheaper for the psuedodragon-nonfamiliar.) I think this is well balanced vs how magic items and such are priced/ repaired (again considering how much better a mount is compared to a equal priced magic item.) -Jindl |
| SnarkHunter11-17-03, 04:28 PM | It had been Moon-moon's intention at first to get a mount with leadership (combining with paladin abilites as mentioned in the DMG) but I think that the leadership feat was declared a no-go, mostly because it would massivly increase the Character's power level. A 6th level bard+ a 5th level wizard would smash massive massive face you realize? Anyway we have a voting thread for a reason aye? ;) I suggest voting on-free resurrection for bought steeds? Price limit, (> then 2000gp for instance)? 1/2 price to buy again? Leadership for mounts only? That said I will say that if we're going to allow resurections for mounts...is that terribly different from recastings on permanency? Its a very expensive item thats also very vulnerable (to casters anyway), and though it could benefit many characters most will be loath to spend the money when it can be lost forever so easily. :angel: Ulterior motive? I don't know what you're talking about... |
| Caterane11-17-03, 04:29 PM | @Jindl: Of course I know how to quote. There`s a big quote button above but you use the quote button outside the "Post reply" screen where "Originally posted by" appears. Of course I can type that myself but there must be an easier option. Or did you write this "Originally..." by yourself? Good point on the mount issue. Leadership mounts!! Now that`s something. According to the DMG I may choose my mount and it need not be one from the list. Fiendish Horse or something... ok let me think about this |
| fluiddragon11-17-03, 04:34 PM | Here's my thought on the mount/resurection idea. I think the price on some of them are very high for what you get, but they have a coolness factor, and I would love to see them in the arena, but cost vs longevity is not good for most of them. How about a compromise? You don't get a free resurection but how about a set charge for companions allies. It has to be high enough so you feel the sting but low enough to not cripple a character should he have to pay it. Maybe a % of the original cost, or a varialble rate based on CR or a flat rate. This gets us the best of both worlds. |
| Moherajikuyx11-17-03, 04:34 PM | hi guys! About the mount... Yes it's risky, that's why the exotic mounts are usually associated to paladins :) About the arrows, I can't but agree Jindl. The only arrows that are sold 1x are Sleep Arrows, Arrows of Slaying, and Screaming Bolts, the others have to be 50 (i think). One can always sell back the unneded ones, losing the money (write it on the sheet!) I was also thinking about custom made items... There's not the possibility of making custom items, but potions and scrolls as of now. I'll get Craft wondrous with Iron, and I think that will be really worth it nevertheless. A pair of considerations. I reached a conclusion with buffs. The buffs, as said, will be castable before the fight if they're "personal" or "touch" and if they last a minimum of 16 hours. The buffs, though, will have to be declared on the sheet at the moment of the equipment buying, and not editable afterwards, because they're treated as equipment. Things that don't require rolls like poisoning stuff when an assassin will be considered buffs. The experimentation with the sorcerers and bards goes on: the little number of sorcs and bards going at high levels doesn't prove much to their favor to date... And now let me read the fights ;) |
| Jindl11-17-03, 04:35 PM | Cat - Actually, what I do is hit the quote button. Then I insert {/b}{/quote} every time I wish to break the quote and enter comments. The I cut and paste the original quote prefix (created when I hit the quote button) to resume the quote. To quote from multiple posts, use the above method, but you have to type in the name of the 2nd source in the italicized text, and you have to type the actual quote as well. -Jindl EDIT: @ Mo - I would add summons with a duration of 16 hours or more to your list of buffs, to benefit paladin's special mounts and (if anybody goes with a thaumatugist) the summon planar ally / planar binding spells. Also regarding sorcs/bards - Well we have a 5th level sorc (Octavian who has a 3 and 1 record), a 4th level sorc (Gage, with a 2 and 1 record), a 4th level bard (Candy, with a 2 and 2 record), and 2 third level bards (Turnip who didn't fight 2 weeks in a row, and Ralin who is also inactive.) Given that these characters have only existed like 6 or 7 weeks, I think they are doing very well. They either are tied with, or a very close to the best records at their respective levels. That's successful in my book. They are advancing much more quickly than wizards like Pyre and Marcus, than noncasters like Tomar, Kelek and Hurtz ... heck Octavian has a better record than a druid (Buttmunch, but only because Jindl would have done it better ;) ). I think they are far surpassing what you expected. |
| Caterane11-17-03, 04:49 PM | Originally posted by Jindl Cat - Actually, what I do is hit the quote button. Then I insert {/b}{/quote} every time I wish to break the quote and enter comments. The I cut and paste the original quote prefix (created when I hit the quote button) to resume the quote. To quote from multiple posts, use the above method, but you have to type in the name of the 2nd source in the italicized text, and you have to type the actual quote as well. -Jindl Acknowledged ;) |
| MotherBast11-17-03, 05:30 PM | Concerning Bards, I think Candy is doing very well, to have been using a bow she is not proficent with for the last 4 fights!!! Concerning The Dorrin vs Roger fight..... I'm confused. Was the Dwarf taking 5' steps? If so then the horse could have also only taken 5' steps and still full attacked. If he was moving more than 5', shouldn't he have provoked AoOs? |
| barrel_master11-17-03, 05:58 PM | http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1863697#post1863697 This fight probably isn't a very fun read unfortunately... AR, I don't feel well. Faldion vs Hadel |
| barrel_master11-17-03, 06:01 PM | Son of a *****! You're right motherblast, I screwed up... the horse should have been able to make full attacks. |
| sloisel11-17-03, 06:39 PM | Originally posted by Jindl (Buttmunch, but only because Jindl would have done it better ;) ). Heck, you try playing a kobold druid. And no warhorse animal companion cheating this time. Apparently, you were playing both the characters I was most interested in playing (grey elf geezer enchanter and human druid.) Speaking of which, I'm calling the grey elf geezer necromancer. Sébastien Loisel |
| Alterlat11-17-03, 06:45 PM | A couple of interesting fights there. I'm not sure that the numbers on Dorrin's melee attack are right, although I don't think it affects anything. By my calculations, the attack bonus should be +4 (w/ MW & tower shield) and the damage should be 1d10+3. Edit: Oops, didn't see the weapon focus feat - that explains it. |
| barrel_master11-17-03, 09:27 PM | I think dorin gets +1 for a feat then +2 damage for rage. |
| sshuit11-17-03, 10:00 PM | Damn! That was a really close fight.... Getting those extra full attacks might have made the difference! Oh well. No shame losing to an honourable warrior. There's always next week. Pip pip cheerio and all that good stuff. Roger/sshuit Originally posted by barrel_master Son of a *****! You're right motherblast, I screwed up... the horse should have been able to make full attacks. |
| Sir Cridion11-17-03, 10:44 PM | A few quick questions: Can paladins buy and use cleric scrolls? ie 25 for a scroll of CLW instead of 50 because of min paladin caster level. And can paladins still use scrolls when they don't have a caster level? (IIRC paladins only get a caster level at level 4) Thanks in advance |
| Jindl11-17-03, 10:52 PM | Originally posted by Sir Cridion A few quick questions: Can paladins buy and use cleric scrolls? ie 25 for a scroll of CLW instead of 50 because of min paladin caster level. And can paladins still use scrolls when they don't have a caster level? (IIRC paladins only get a caster level at level 4) Thanks in advance Scrolls are always priced as if made by a character of your class. Thus a paladin scroll of cure light wounds is 50 gp. They are class specific. Wands are not class specific, therefore a wand of cure light wounds (50 charges) is always 750 gp, whether it is being bought by a bard, cleric, paladin, druid, or ranger, or some PrC. Rangers and Paladins can use wands before they can cast spells. They cannot use scrolls until they have a caster level (which means 4th class level.) -Jindl |
| SnarkHunter11-17-03, 11:34 PM | Madness I tell you. Madness has been posted on the fight thread I really do apologize to everyone for this. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1866642#post1866642) But mostly I appologize to me... |
| sloisel11-17-03, 11:49 PM | Originally posted by Jindl Scrolls are always priced as if made by a character of your class. Thus a paladin scroll of cure light wounds is 50 gp. They are class specific. Wands are not class specific, therefore a wand of cure light wounds (50 charges) is always 750 gp, whether it is being bought by a bard, cleric, paladin, druid, or ranger, or some PrC. Rangers and Paladins can use wands before they can cast spells. They cannot use scrolls until they have a caster level (which means 4th class level.) -Jindl WTF? where'd that come from? How do you use Use Magic Device then? DMG238 also doesn't agree with what you just said. You don't need paladin specific scrolls, the DMG doesn't even have a table for generating paladin specific CLW. Sébastien Loisel |
| SnarkHunter11-17-03, 11:56 PM | Before they have caster levels they can't use scrolls. As for the scrolls please see the DMG pg 287, upper right corner. AND NOW I SLEEP! |
| sloisel11-18-03, 12:18 AM | Originally posted by SnarkHunter Before they have caster levels they can't use scrolls. Yes, that's correct. As for the scrolls please see the DMG pg 287, upper right corner. Hey? My DMG 287's upper right corner is about staffs. I read the entirety of that text and it doesn't mention scrolls. My DMG 287's left column says "Creating scrolls" and it doesn't talk about Cleric scrolls being only usable by Clerics. Granted, if you're a Paladin crafting a CL 2, Spell Level 1 CLW, it'll cost you 50GP, which you can either read from the table Scroll Base Price (By Scriber's Class) or get from the 12.5GPxlevel of spellxlevel of caster in the first paragraph of "Creating scrolls." Love, Sébastien Loisel |
| Jindl11-18-03, 12:24 AM | Snark - you should be beaten around the head with a large stick for that monstrosity of a fight ;) BTW - Why wasn't Rito getting AoO's on the hawk (reach 0 ft) when it was trying to touch him with chill touch? Also, a natural 20 doesn't automatically pass a skill check (it only autosucceeds on attack rolls and saves.) Does a 20 for the hawk at that range successfully spot Rito? -Jindl @ sloisel - If you can find text to indicate that any class can use the scroll, regardless of who made it, I'll be glad. Jindl has spent much money on 7th level caster 4th level dispel magic scrolls... But as far as I know, spell completion items operate as if they were created by your class (hence a sorc must beat a caster level check of 1 point higher than a wiz to use a scroll.) Use magic device ignores this rule (that's why its use magic device). As for the DMG tables, it says specifically that the table only lists the most common versions of scrolls. Heck, it only lists the cleric version of most of the divine things (3rd level dispel magic and 5th level flame strike). That doesn't mean a druid can use the clerics dispel magic scroll. Wand yes, scroll no. Also, the comment about "Jindl doing it better" was meant in jest (thus the winking smiley face) and was only a reference to the Buttmunch vs Gage fight. Responding with accusations of cheating was a bit harsh, don't you think? |
| sloisel11-18-03, 12:35 AM | @ sloisel - If you can find text to indicate that any class can use the scroll, regardless of who made it, I'll be glad. Glad to oblige. DMG238. * The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divive [sic] spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class. For example, clerics create scrolls of divine spells, wizards create scrolls of arcane spells, and so forth.) [...] If the user meets all the requirements noted above, and her caster level is at least equal to the spell's caster level, she can automatically active the spell without a check. [...] Barrel's post, immediately following this one, is more complete. |
| barrel_master11-18-03, 12:36 AM | I'm going to jump into this scroll arguement... the SRD magic items IV section states... To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements. • The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class.) • The user must have the spell on his or her class list. • The user must have the requisite ability score. If the user meets all the requirements noted above, and her caster level is at least equal to the spell’s caster level, she can automatically activate the spell without a check. If she meets all three requirements but her own caster level is lower than the scroll spell’s caster level, then she has to make a caster level check (DC = scroll’s caster level + 1) to cast the spell successfully. If she fails, she must make a DC 5 Wisdom check to avoid a mishap (see Scroll Mishaps, below). A natural roll of 1 always fails, whatever the modifiers. It's my opinion that a paladin can cast spells from scrolls under 4th level. It's also my opinion that paladins can use cleric scrolls, the only thing that the SRD says is that the scroll must be in the character's spell list, the user must have the ability score. |
| sloisel11-18-03, 12:45 AM | Originally posted by Jindl Responding with accusations of cheating was a bit harsh, don't you think? Don't fret, friend. I just don't use smileys often myself. It was meant as a wry retort, not an accusation or an insult. I really meant it in good humour. I hope to not mislead you this way in the future. Sébastien Loisel |
| Moherajikuyx11-18-03, 04:46 AM | Originally posted by SnarkHunter Madness I tell you. Madness has been posted on the fight thread I really do apologize to everyone for this. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1866642#post1866642) But mostly I appologize to me... The end was embarassing :( Rito would never (removed to not spoil the fight)... Especially to a mage. There are some errors, I guess it's the right retribution for posting a long and boring strategy: Cuthbert smited! *edit* Standard Sheet We, moderators, need to have standard places to look at, to spend less time for the fights. I heard the complains, so I downsized the sheet requirements a bit. Now it's all about information and location of the information. I removed the color and non essential formatting: anyone may add colors, bolds, underlines as most wanted. The sheet is mandatory for: - all the new pcs - pcs that had the sheet note last week - pcs coming back from the "pause" Who, of these, doesn't have a standard sheet, will not be set to ready for tomorrow pairings! Old pcs are suggested to adopt it too, while editing for tomorrow pairings. |
| MadCowTemplate11-18-03, 05:56 AM | Okay, I'm about half done typing up the battle of Peter and Marcus, but I'm litterally passing out at the keyboard. I had been trying to get this done, but have been distracted by unexpected family problems. I will get the full write up posted Tuesday evening, but I don't want you guys to have to wait till the very last minute to update your characters, so I've posted a brief summery of the battle and who won on the fight thread. I will replace that post via edit with the real fight write up. Sorry 'bout the late posting, and everything. Life as a newbie, I guess. :twitch: |
| Caterane11-18-03, 06:16 AM | I don`t think it is appropriate to list my prefight buffs. Extended mage armor, for example, won`t do me any good in a wizard duel and I wouldn`t have cast it but it uses a 2nd level slot but since I have no idea whom I face that leaves me with a problem. I don`t think it is much of a problem that your enemy doesn`t know which prebuffs you used or which poison has been applied and on top of that he can anticipate that due to the small selection of extendable spells/poisons on sheet. |
| Irlina11-18-03, 07:06 AM | @MadCow: Marcus "the Lawyer" lost because of Protection from Law??? ROTFL |
| Jindl11-18-03, 08:11 AM | Um, the sleep effect is not blocked by protection vs alignment. It is not a form of mental control (and thus not automatically countered by the protection.) They do get a +2 resistance bonus on saves if the caster is of the alignment protected against. But in this case, Peter would fall asleep immediately if he failed his save. Whether he would survive Marcus's CDG attempt is another issue entirely. -Jindl MCT - Take heart, the first few fights you run as a mod are always the toughest. Wait, thats not true. They continue to be tough as the combatants go up in level . (That's why Bilo v Ebelin is not up yet... it's a tough one to run... be up in the next 8 hours, I promise!!) The benefit of modding: In addition to having fun, I have learned more about the rules of 3.5 by running these fights, than I ever would have by playing ... and it's making me a better player in my RL campaign (where I have a human paladin using Skymoon's charging build). |
| fluiddragon11-18-03, 08:25 AM | As far as scrolls are concerend. Scrolls come in 2 flavors Arcane and Divine. They don't come in 5 or 6 flavors. (Wizard, Sorc, Cleric, Druid, etc etc.) A sorcerer can read a 2nd level scroll written by a wizard or bard as long as that spell is on his or her class lsit. The DC is 1 point higher than a wizard reading that same scroll because the Sorcerer is 1 level behind. This doesn't mean the sorcerer has to by a 2nd level scroll at the 4th caster level Just that the DC to activate it is higher. Same with a druid and Dispell magic. They can buy a scroll crafted by a cleric at a lower caster level but the DC to activate it is higher for a druid than it wuold be for a cleric with the same scroll. As it is a Divine scroll not a Druid or Cleric scroll. Niether character in the above examples need pay more gold for the scrolls, they just have a more difficult time activating them. From the SRD: "To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements. The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class.) The user must have the spell on his or her class list. The user must have the requisite ability score." It does not say that you have to have a Druid version of the spell or a sorcerer version of the spell and so on. So a paladin does not need spend 50gp on a CLW scroll A 1st level CLW scroll costs 25 gp. The paladin must be able to cast spells to use it though and uses his caster level to determine his chances for activation. So it is more difficult for a paladin to use than a cleric but the cost is the same. It is just like in an adventure the the PC's find 2 scrolls of CLW The paladin takes one and the cleric takes one. Lets say they go and sell the scrolls. The cleric will get 12.5 gp for the scroll. The paladin won't get 25 gp (as if he had to spend 50gp for it) he will get 12.5 gp just like the cleric. And as long as he is high enough level to cast spells he can activate the scroll but depending on his level it may be more difficult. The scroll is not un-usable to him because a cleric wrote it at level one instead of level two. If you impose this "penalty" on spell casters, that is not based in the core rules, you make the wizard & cleric more powerfull and reduce the power of all other spell casting classes. Especially in the arena setting, where a few gold here or there can make the difference in a fight. -fd |
| SnarkHunter11-18-03, 09:09 AM | @Jindle Well rito wasn't getting attacks of opp because he was blinded. Blindfight meant he wasn't flatfooted but his opponents still had full cover from him and so we're not subject to AoO's. This is also why Mag stopped rolling concentration checks. Also the hawk didn't actually role a 20. That was the sum of his role+14skill-the distance, which happened to be exactly 20. HmmIf a divine spell is cast at different levels by clerics and druids, it apears at the level appropriate to a cleric (considered the default choice between clerics and druids). I guess now I'll have to admit I don't know how it would work. If someone could post about this on the Magic items board though, that would be super. |
| Moherajikuyx11-18-03, 10:23 AM | Originally posted by Caterane I don`t think it is appropriate to list my prefight buffs. Extended mage armor, for example, won`t do me any good in a wizard duel and I wouldn`t have cast it but it uses a 2nd level slot but since I have no idea whom I face that leaves me with a problem. You don't have to buff yourself if you need the slot. Consider it a bonus, not a hindrance. The buffs rule is still under scrutiny: we'll wait that someone uses it, and if something broken comes out I'll remove it. (I'll let people change their extended spell feats of course, in such case) This choice has various reasons: balance (see below) and campaing style: I've yet to find a mage who doesn't cast extended mage armor at morning from lvl 11 on. Usually, they cast two/day, from lvl 5 on. We're here to test actual builds, not theorical ones. I'm really concerned about the sorcs and bards. They look to be faring poorly... And druids, clerics and wizos look to be getting an unfair advantage over all the other classes selecting the most appropriate spell. In the first two levels, there are 5/5 active prepared spellcasters. In the first three levels, they're 7/9; then, only at the fourth level, they begin to diminish, as Gage, Candessa and Hurtz appear. I really think numbers give me reason. I'll see how the numbers go next week, but if the trend doesn't change, I'm finally going to make the prepared casters work as they should. I agree that the prepared spells should be secret, but the advantage they have now is unbalancing. We'll then see if the other way is unbalancing in the other direction: it will not be sculpted in stone, and someone could come out with an idea to keep the prepared spells secret without changing them post - fight. For example... What about making a post for each spellcaster, with only the spells, cryptoed with a choosen algorithm? The spellcaster will send the pwd with the mail. The buffs would be secret too... *edit* I updated the polls. Permanency was permitted with a low majority, ECL 3 are permitted with a large majority, but with Jindl's idea (a lizardman = 2 fights). |
| fluiddragon11-18-03, 10:47 AM | As far as prepared casters go, lets stop thinking METAgame and think game. How long do the characters know about a fight? Do they have 1 hour notice, 10 minutes, 1 minute, 1day? Think about it that way. Set a duration that they know about. This will effect how and what spells they memorize. If they have a day to prepare then they will know who they are fighting there should not be any changes. If they have an hour they may prepare some slots and leave others open to add a few final touches, and fill those slots during the hour like they would in an adventure. In Gage's fight with Buttmunch. If I had better tactics I would have fared better. I should have used different tactics. I haven't played a druid in a long while 2e. And I didn't anticipate the way I should, plus I was originally planning to retire Gage over the whole craft wondrous item feat thing, so my tactics were not as thought full as they should have been. I don't in anyway feel like I was unfairly beaten because he knew my spells but I didn't know his. (Personally I would rather not have to post my known spells and would hope they could be secret, as they would be in a game, wether I was a wizard or sorcerer. But I don't see anyway of implementing this on this board. Gages 2nd level spell is invisibility, everybody knows this and can adjust the tactics accordingly, if this was secret, as he just learned it then people would not know what he knows and I would have a tactical advantage) Maybe this is something we should implement. First fight with a new spell you only tell the mod, then post it on the sheet as everybody will know by then. This will help all arcane casters. Divine already get all the spells of the level. But gives Sorc and Bards the best advantage I think. |
| Jindl11-18-03, 10:55 AM | @Snark - Thanks for the clarifications. RE: Scrolls - From what sloisel and barrel_master have posted, it seems pretty clear that scrolls come in two types: arcane and divine. As such, any caster can use a scroll that appears on his class list, as long as the type matches (arcane to arcane, divine to divine). The specific class that made the scroll is irrelevant. The caster level check to use the scroll is set at a DC of 1 + the scrolls caster level. Here are a few examples: A wiz3 tries to use an arcane scroll: dispel magic (CL 5). He must make a caster level check vs DC 1+5(scroll's caster level)=6. The scroll was purchased for 375 gp (5 x 3 x 25). A sorc3 tries to use an arcane scroll: dispel magic (CL 5). He must make a caster level check vs DC 1+5(scroll's caster level, it doesn't matter that a sorc has to be 6th level to cast this normally)=6. The scroll still costs 375 gp (it doesn't matter that the minimun sorc level is 6, the scroll is still made and operates at caster level 5.) A wiz3 tries to use an arcane scroll: dispel magic (CL 10). The caster level check is vs DC 1+10(the scroll's caster level) = 11. The scroll costs 750 gp (10x3x25). A sorc would use the same scroll, for the same cost, with the same caster level DC. A cleric3 uses a divine scroll: dispel magic (CL 5) just as a wiz3 would. And the scroll costs the same as in the 1st example. A druid3 uses a divine scroll: dispel magic (CL 5). He must make a caster level check vs DC 1+5(the scroll's caster level, it doesn't matter that druids must be 7th level to cast dispel magic, nor does it matter that it is a 4th level spell for them to memorize)=6. The scroll costs 375 gp (5 x 3 x 25) and is treated as a 3rd level spell, even through it is being used by a druid. The reverse would be true for spells like flame strike, etc. Basically, your class merely determines if you can activate the magic item (arcane to arcane, divine to divine, must be on your spell list). The DC for the caster level check to activate it is determined by the item itself. It is a magic item, and that should explain why druids can use a 3rd level spell version of dispel magic on a scroll at 5th caster level. From the other posts, this seems pretty clear to me. @ Moherajikuyx - Please take a look at the win-loss records of the sorcs and bards. They are doing really well. The only reason they aren't at the highest levels yet, is that they haven't been around long enough. But please read my earlier post for more specific comparisons about how well they are doing. They are really, really successful. -Jindl EDIT: Corrected. Thanks for the input from everyone :) |
| Moherajikuyx11-18-03, 11:13 AM | Originally posted by fluiddragon As far as prepared casters go, lets stop thinking METAgame and think game. Actually this is not the point: the point is that this arena is meant to test builds, so it has to be as near as possible to actual campaigns, or the test will not be significative. In actual campaigns, I fear that prepared spellcasters rarely have the luxury to know what foe they will fight. Unless they're npcs... :D Jindl - you forget the fighters that were there from the beginning. At high level only prepared spellcasters remain. I'll leave maybe a pair of weeks to see how the spont. spellcasters fare, but remember that the comparison is between prep. spellcasters and the others, not between prep vs. spontaneous. Anyways, buffs will be treated as equipment. At least, no one is getting nailed, as no one still has the level to use them. Oh and thanks for the explanation on scrolls guys, that was vague. It looks a bit strange that the same scroll of dispel magic will be better in the hands of a lvl 7 druid than in those of a lvl 7 cleric, but the rules work this way. |
| sloisel11-18-03, 12:53 PM | Originally posted by Jindl RE: Scrolls - From what sloisel and barrel_master have posted, it seems pretty clear that scrolls come in two types: arcane and divine. I'm glad we agree! The caster level check to use the scroll is set at a DC of 1 + the higher number between the scrolls caster level and the minimun caster level for someone in your class to use the spell. I think that might be a house rule. The actual rule reads: "If she meets all three requirements but her own caster level is lower than the scroll spell's caster level, then she has to make a caster level check (DC=scroll's caster level + 1) to cast the spell successfully." It really doesn't mention anything about "the caster level someone your class would have to be to cast this spell." Sébastien Loisel |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-18-03, 01:02 PM | Buttmunch is correct. It's just scroll +1, not scroll+1 of lvl of ur class needed. Tellish |
| Magagumo11-18-03, 01:29 PM | Double, Double... |
| Magagumo11-18-03, 01:29 PM | Hmm, I belive being blind prevents one from taking AoO, Jindl, so that's why Tommy was left alone. On the scrolls, my only question is why dispel magic is listed both under 3rd and 4th level scrolls for divine. My assumption is they are referencing cleric (3rd) and druid (4th). As for the pre-buffs... eh, I do have a small problem with this, honestly. They could be easily referenced in our tactics, and drops a hint on our playing strategy (just as having to list the spells we were memorizing for the next fight would). Honestly, I don't see why they need to know which spells we are walking in with, they can probably guess on their own... (and if they don't bully for us spellcasters ^_~). How about we try it first w/o listing the spells, before we do list the spells, that way we can ascertain if it was an enorously unfair advantage. Here's a clue nonethless: The caster must be 8th level and have access to the extend spell. Only spells with hour long durations will ever be possible in ths arena (10/min durations require a 48th caster to be extended up to 16 hours ;)) and the cap will be their highest spell slot-1. There ya go, no instant info, but easy enough to figure out. (After all, if my opponent decides, "Ah-ha! I am a wizard, thusly Bruno will be heavily focused on illusion magic, so I won't need my Remove Blindness spell memorized!" that's their fault ;)) Edit: One problem on the (send moderator my new known spell) idea, is that this allows people to choose their spells after knowing the pairings.. which is honestly against the rules of this arena. I honestly think people should stop worrying about the spontaneous casters, they're doing alright for themselves. :) We didn't worry just because the fighters used to be dropping like flies to our (mis-used) sleep spells, we just let it go, and it's working just fine. In the end, it's not our job to playtest the classes here, folks, Wizards spent over a year doing that for us. If we are going to call ourselves the Core Arena, then we need to be the core arena, not a group which adapts Core to their own purposes. This is why i get nervous about people calling spontaneous casters "underpowered," and begin suggesting ways to "fix them." I see a sorceror with a lot of invisibilities.. I can't wait to see what spell he couples with that at 5th, making him hard to find and deadly to deal with. Just wait till we see 7 shocking grasps with spectral hand, eh? ;) |
| Caterane11-18-03, 01:58 PM | Well said, Mag. I am also against any changes in the rules. They work fine as they are now and having wizards reveil their spells prior to combat is not only a heavy step towards unknown results but it also spoils our tactics. On top of that I don`t even understand how this should work with 2 spellcasters. Who posts his spells first? Even if they are posted simultaneously (which is unrealistic) than there`s a big problem: If I post that I memorize 3 Blindness spells, my opponoment sees this and memorizes 3 Remove blindness spells. Now we have both memorized totally useless spells. We can continue this with other spells too until spellcasters neutralize each other with their spells and fight quarterstaff vs dagger. Wow, what a wizardly duel. Let`s just keep it the way it is. And I don`t think sorcerers are weaker than wizards. Ebelin has a vast spell selection, granted, but he has spent nearly all of his money on this. A sorcerer may invest this money in magic items. Ebelin did this because he doesn`t want his opponoment know which tactic he uses. If I have to post his spells (=tactic) prior to combat then this is absolutely unfair. As Jindl pointed out, sorcerers fare good enough. A fact that I noticed is that in many D&D groups there are far more wizards than sorcerers, also. The reason for this is that sorcerers are more boring and people don`t want to always cast the same spells but that doesn`t mean they are weaker than wizos or other classes. |
| sloisel11-18-03, 02:02 PM | Originally posted by Magagumo On the scrolls, my only question is why dispel magic is listed both under 3rd and 4th level scrolls for divine. My assumption is they are referencing cleric (3rd) and druid (4th). That's probably right. Both of these are divine spells, and hence are usable by any divine spellcasting character who has dispel magic on his spell list. Dispel magic is somewhat unique in this respect because we can take a good guess who created the scroll from the spell level. However, CLW isn't so unique (many [all?] divine spellcasters have it as a 1st level spell.) So when you buy a CLW scroll, it's hard to tell what kind of caster created it. As noted previously, the kind of caster who created it doesn't affect who can use it, other than specifying the type (arcane vs divine) of the scroll. Sébastien Loisel |
| sloisel11-18-03, 02:19 PM | Originally posted by fluiddragon Gages 2nd level spell is invisibility, everybody knows this and can adjust the tactics accordingly [...] For what it's worth, I thought you'd beat me. On the one hand, I wasn't sure how the moderator was going to read the description of "protection vs evil" which arguably makes you immune to my summons (although I'm hoping this isn't how it's interpreted in the arena -- looking at "protection vs good" this seems to be a miswording) and with a resistance vs elements and appropriate AC buffs, it was next to impossible for me to do anything to you. In addition, your average damage from casting magic missile round after round is higher than my average damage from lobbing produce flames round after round (or of you being swarmed by bats round after round.) The invisibility was just cherry on top. I thought maybe you'd turn invisible and use SM1 on me. That's pretty weak, but it might just work. My anti-invisibility tactic is to use Faerie Fire, and as you may have noticed, I didn't even memorize one of those. I was so convinced you'd nail me real fast that I thought casting Faerie Fire would waste a precious round. Cheers, Sébastien Loisel |
| SnarkHunter11-18-03, 03:06 PM | @Mag. Actually dispell magic only apears as a 3rd level scroll under the divine list. I noticed that a little while ago which was why I became swayed towards Sloisel etc.'s arguments. I guess alternate prices only apply towards casting. Which is fair enough I suppose. |
| fluiddragon11-18-03, 03:27 PM | Originally posted by sloisel For what it's worth, I thought you'd beat me. On the one hand, I wasn't sure how the moderator was going to read the description of "protection vs evil" which arguably makes you immune to my summons (although I'm hoping this isn't how it's interpreted in the arena -- looking at "protection vs good" this seems to be a miswording) and with a resistance vs elements and appropriate AC buffs, it was next to impossible for me to do anything to you. In addition, your average damage from casting magic missile round after round is higher than my average damage from lobbing produce flames round after round (or of you being swarmed by bats round after round.) The invisibility was just cherry on top. I thought maybe you'd turn invisible and use SM1 on me. That's pretty weak, but it might just work. My anti-invisibility tactic is to use Faerie Fire, and as you may have noticed, I didn't even memorize one of those. I was so convinced you'd nail me real fast that I thought casting Faerie Fire would waste a precious round. Cheers, Sébastien Loisel I forgot all about entangle! I didn't take that into account at all. I was originally going to fly first, but you had a dispell magic scroll, and I didn't want to fall! I really should have read the entangle description, it is a VERY powerfull spell. Your tactics were superior and you won which is how it should be. The entangle is really what did me in. You negated my ability to cast spells. I was hoping you'd waste a round casting faerie fire :D. But I don't think you beat me with advantages of being a prepared caster, I think you beat me with better tactics. I also didn't specify to attack the bat swarm. I was aware of the spell but didn't know how to counter it. The information is not in the SRD and that's all I have. Next time I face a caster with entange and summon swarm it will be very different. Notice I have still spell now and my next item will be a rod of lesser silent spell. I learned from the fight and it will be to my advantage in the long run. Wizards I think will be the toughest opponent. Resist Elements and Shield reduce or nullify my 2 main attack modes, shocking grasp and magic missile. Plus access to see invisibility. All in all they reduce my options greatly, and with Mage Armor and Shield the AC is tough to beat. In the next couple levels when I can do some of the combos I want you will see some really interesting tactics and I will bring the Sorcerers strengths to bear. The flexibility of changing tactics and spells on the fly will come into its own. I'm just limited now by the paltry number of spells I can know. Scrolls are ok to help but once you guys see the direction Gage goes in I think you will be impressed. As my plans come together I will rely less and less on scrolls like I have to now. At 6th and above he will be real nasty. Can you guess what my first 3rd level spell will be? And it will get better at 8th. After 8th level the strategies I have cooked up will come into thier own and he will be a real force to be reconed with. I'll should be able at this point to slow down the fights and bring the spont casting and more spells into play. I think we should give the bards and sorcerers more than 2 weeks to see how they do. A month would be a better test. This will accont for bad luck, because if the dice gods frown on you then nothing else matters. -fd |
| Market_Share11-18-03, 04:30 PM | The level in which it appears at doesn't change the type of spell it is when you purchase the scroll. Dispel divine is a dispel divine, no matter what level your character qualifies for it. Your class has nothing to do wether a spell is divine or arcane. It's what's listed under the spell that matters. A druid can use a scroll of dispell magic 5th lvl divine caster without problems if he's 5th as well. If your first lvl druid wants to use the same said scroll the caster lvl check doesn't change because he's a druid and druids can't learn it until 7th. It's still a 5th caster lvl divine scroll, nothing else. Spike |
| Market_Share11-18-03, 04:41 PM | Hey, that's just my two cents up there, but i'd like to think i'm pretty knowledgeable with the rules. After a few fights, i'll try my hand at moderating. A friend of mine told me about this forum and i decided to take a shot at it. I read a few fights at his place and it seems interesting. I looked at many of the characters and it was really tough to come up with something unique. We have a pair of trippers, many mounted combatants, some cleric SMASH chargers, and whole lot of spellcasters, and a few archers and druids. So needless to say the list of what to do to be unique was extremely small. Race selections also vary, but there was a huge gap in Dwarves. I don't think i saw one, so i'll make one. I decided to blend many aspects into one. I'm trying to make a dwarven mounted-tripping-spell-caster. When he takes his cleric lvl, don't worry, it won't be SMASH domains, it will be different. But that won't be for awhile anyhow. Spike |
| Tyreus11-18-03, 04:46 PM | I'm new here and I don't know how I get my character to fight in the arena. If someone could tell me, I would appreciate it. |
| Magagumo11-18-03, 04:53 PM | Sounds great, Market-Share, always glad to have new people and new ideas... Speaking of new friends, Bruno now has one. Figured I should give everyone a heads up (after additional counseling from a friend of mine *shakes fist*), that I now have a Hill Ginat Skeleton named "Handsome George." Now, under our rules, I can only bring him or Tommy in with me, and I strongly approve of this. Otherwise, I would not eb able to control myself from dragging in Tommy II and 2x Hill Giant's :-D. I have purchased his club and armor (no ACP, so no penalties for him wearing it), and I will be using average numbers for the amount of rocks he brings into a fight. I suggest that he be repaired after every fight, but his "death" be permanent (I can always buy a new one, but I shouldn't get him back for free ^_~). Now, perhaps, you shall all see the true power of the necromancer :-D Oh, one other thing, it seems from my re-reading of Permanency and it's applications on making eprmenant magical walls (read: wall of fire), that the spells are not permenantly gone if dispelled. rather, the comment on their vulnerability todispel merely indicates that they use their caster level, rather than the permanency's caster level (as per spells you cast on yourself). Once dispelled (read: suppressed), they remain as such for several minutes (Book of Exalted Deeds notes the permenant wall as returning in 10 min, as does the mind fog spell), before returning. Thusly, we do not need to worry about their status at the end of the battle, as they only dissappear if the Permanency is destroyed (at least from my reading of it, duration permanent seems to suggest it can be dispelled). Character's are updated and raring to go, Moh :) Edit: In my campaign, we have an 8th level kobold sorceror who enjoys his fireballs and improved invisibilities, fluid, so I know what a beast they can turn into ^_~. |
| barrel_master11-18-03, 05:19 PM | Draloth >> I'm not sure if you're reading this but you can't roll your HP's as you increase in level. Also, you can't be a lawful barbarian. |
| fluiddragon11-18-03, 05:21 PM | Originally posted by Tyreus I'm new here and I don't know how I get my character to fight in the arena. If someone could tell me, I would appreciate it. Gladiators thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=73069) Go here and copy the sample character sheet. Copy this into notepad then edit it and input your characters information. Use the replace all feature of note pad under the edit tab. Replace all the < > with [ ] then copy and paste this into your post for your character. If your character is ready put ready at the top and in this thread notify Mo' that so-n-so is ready. You get 1 char to use unless you want to mod. Then you get 1 extra character for each fight you mod. If you need the srd you can see my signature for some easy to use versions (same content better formating). Or use the core books. Specific character generation rules are in the gladiator thread. -fd |
| fluiddragon11-18-03, 05:27 PM | Gage is updated and ready to go. There were a few errors that I corrected and removed the illegal cloak of resistance. It is also using the standard sheet with some small modifications. Xaverr and Dragon Rain will not fight this week. I don't have any time to mod fights so only 1 character this week. Lets see if I can come up with some good tactics this week. Cur looks like the toughest L4 opponent, great AC and good spell selections. I'd like to see how Gage could do against him, but I'd rather fight someone cheaper to beat! He will cost me some resources. I hope Buttmuch looses next round so we can have a re-match! -fd |
| Moherajikuyx11-18-03, 06:37 PM | First of all, welcome to all the new people! I'm glad to hear that new people consider moderating, lastly we lost some workforce. Back to our beloved grudges... Originally posted by Magagumo As for the pre-buffs... eh, I do have a small problem with this, honestly. They could be easily referenced in our tactics, and drops a hint on our playing strategy (just as having to list the spells we were memorizing for the next fight would).[...]How about we try it first w/o listing the spells, before we do list the spells, that way we can ascertain if it was an enorously unfair advantage. We already tried w/o listing the spells. It came out quite unbalanced, as the numbers show. So we're trying with a small part of the spells listed, at least for what concerns buffs. This will permit us to ascertain if it's an enormously unfair disadvantage. About the "spont. are underpowered, we're not here to test classes" and similia, I'm sorry but you guys are trying to change my words. I'm not testing sorcs, nor bards, and you know better: I never sustained that Gage was underpowered... I told the opposite. But this is not the point: what I'm doing, is to try to simulate the most similar conditions to a generic campaign. To understand what builds are most powerful and survivable in dnd, not only in the arena. This is my only concern. Normal rules: prepared spellcasters prepare their spells at fixed hours in the day, not - generally - after knowing their opponents. It is not so in this arena. So, Mag, you're unwillingly backing me, when you say that arena people is not a group which adapts Core to their own purposes So, 16 h buffs are possible only if listed on the sheet. Not in the sent tactics. Want to keep the secret? Don't buff! This will make for a good counter-experiment. I reached a pact with myself, btw. If I can't find a way to make the prep. spells prepared before the parirings AND secret, which is obviously important - no discussion here, I will not force to declare openly the prepared spells.... Not all the spells. ;) |
| fluiddragon11-18-03, 07:24 PM | I think one thing we have to remember is that the arena cannot simulate normal adventuring conditions. There are a few things in a normal campaign you cannot do in the arena. 1. Prebuffs. For balance purposes only this is limited to 16 hour duration buffs. If this were a campaign where you were going to enter into the arena a character would be using every spell/scroll/potion that had a duration of 1 min or more untill the event started. Everybody would come in buffed, as they would know ahead of time that they were going to fight. As long as the duration was longer than 1 minute it would be up. Also simulating adventuring conditions if you were walking into a very hostile location and you knew a fight was iminent you would buff first. Also in setting up an ambush. You would not be limited to buffs you put on in the morning. I can understand the reasoning behind not allowing most prebuffs, but this is an arena house rule not a core rule. 2. Wizards would indead tailor thier spells towards the enemy they knew they woud face if they had the time before hand. Intellegence, rumors, prior contact, divinations, Gather INformation, andthe like supplied by yourself or party members would allow you to prepare what you feel are the right spells before hand. In the arena you know who you will face this is like an adventuring situation where you know your enemy. I always imagined the arena like a boxing match. In boxing you know who youare fighting days weeks or months in advance. You can tailor your training against a certain opponent. Now maybe I'm wrong and the arena is like a collegic wrestling tournament or martial arts tournament where you only know your weight class and likely opponents. You don't have the luxury of training for a specific opponent. That is why its a in game question not a meta game question. 3. Easy access to any spell scroll and magic item in the DMG. In no campaign I have ever run or played in has the players ever had such access to items. This makes character building and such much much different. 4. Trippes and dissarmers work much better in the arena than they do in a campaign. In a campagin you will face more monsters whre this tactic does not work. In the arena it is much more effective as long as you are not put to sleep! LOL Gage will do well in the arena, but that is because I have tailored his spells and scrolls towards arena life not adventuring. All his knows spells are and will be spells he will cast more than once during the same combat. I have not and will not take any spells that you just cast once per combat. Anything that has a duration of more than 1/per level I will get a scroll or wand for. If I were adventuring I would have to take a much different spell selection because I would not have access to the scrolls like I do inteh arena. He would have to be self sufficient. Gage is much more efficent than any adventuring sorcerer due to easy scroll access. These are just the reasons I can name off the top of my head. I'm sure there are more. I just don't see the point in trying to make this venue work like an adventure venue with prepared casters. Its pointless because this is not an adventure, and will by its very nature nver work like that. Some classes are less suited to arena life than others. Gage takes much much more thought than my other 2 melee characters and more than a wizard would. YOu have to do a significant amount of planning to make it work, so it is less popular than prepared casters. The biggest problems to me is the small number of spells known, and the sucky skill set. With the delayed spell level it is much less viable to multiclass even for 1 level. With all these its less fun to play than a wizard. THe biggest reason you don't see any/many multiclass builds with Sorc/Bards is that CHA is a dump stat for any decent build. Who wants to put points in CHA unless you are going straight bard/sorc? Paladin's are the only other class that gets any bonus or reson in the arena to put points in CHA. This is why I support the +5% gp/cha bonus rule that is in the voting poll. This rule, if implemented may also increase the numbers of multiclass builds that include Sorc/Bard. In summary, if we wanted to make it like an adventure then some of the rules of the arena would be arbitrary and not jive with the implied reality. If you knew you were fighting in a few hours/min or whatever why couldn't or wouldn't you prebuff? Why would any person with an intellegence more than 3 only load up on buffs 16 hours before the match? This doesn't make any sense, because in an adventure if you knew in 1 minute you were going to fight you would spend the next 10 rounds buffing. Since I play casters generally I would love to be able to prebuff 1 minute before a fight, it would make it much eaiser to win, I could walk in with 10 spells running, it also make the extend feat much more usefull. I can also see the problems with this and it would quickly make the casters of all flavors much stronger than non casters. Non casters would still have magic items and potions, but this would cost them much more. So I really don't see a need to try to make the arena like an adventure because in many ways it is not. It is more like making an NPC to fight a group of PC's. After all if you were in a campaign what pc is going to spend teh amountof gold we do on 1 shot items? You are going to go for the permenent stuff. NPC's will go for the one shot stuff oldest DM trick in the book. So I am not arguing to allow prebuffs, but just not to try to simulate adventureing conditions, as it is not an adventure. Ok I'm done blathering I just don't want to work right now :D I don't think we should allow lots of pre-buffs, anyway. Yeah I'm lying though my teeth but hey :D edit: In regard to pre-buffs on the sheet. I really don't care either way, I mean how many spells are there in the core rules that would qualify? Its not much of a surprize either way.:angel: :angel: :angel: |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-18-03, 07:26 PM | I'm gonna agree with MO. I do believe pre-buffs need to be on the character sheet. Because otherwise what most ppl are using as arguments would then allow casters to buff JUST before the fight, which we all know we can't do. I don't think it's unbalancing to tactics, it's still a very big advantage to the pre-buffer regardless if you're opponent knows it or not. Tellish |
| Jindl11-18-03, 08:14 PM | I agree with Tellish and Mo about the prebuffs. Given the limited number of spells that have durations in the hours, its not really that hard to figure out which spells your opponent will prebuff with. Big surprise that you are prebuffing with greater magic weapon, Mr. Cleric. I had no idea that wizard would prebuff with mage armor. I mean, who are we kidding. You don't lose anything by writing it on the character sheet. And the time you gain in the fight is worth it. Speaking of fights... I'm on round 17 of the Ebelin vs Bilo fight... and I don't like you guys anymore ;). 10 rounds of nothing but wizards buffing themselves at opposite ends of the field. Then 10 more rounds of fight a little, retreat a little, buff a little more... running this fight sucks. It'll be posted soon. Grrr. -Jindl Fight posted. 24 pages in a word document. 24 pages. That's longer than my high school term paper (11 years ago when I was in high school.) Grrr. Please check it for errors. If I somehow made it through that beast with no moderating mistakes, I want cookies. Lots of cookies. Grrr, again. |
| cellardweller11-18-03, 08:51 PM | Originally posted by fluiddragon I was originally going to fly first, but you had a dispell magic scroll, and I didn't want to fall! You would have to be flying pretty darned high for that to be a problem: SRD Dispel Magic Abjuration <snip/> A dispelled spell ends as if its duration had expired. Some spells, as detailed in their descriptions, can’t be defeated by dispel magic. Dispel magic can dispel (but not counter) spell-like effects just as it does spells. <snip/> SRD Fly Transmutation <snip/> Should the spell duration expire while the subject is still aloft, the magic fails slowly. The subject floats downward 60 feet per round for 1d6 rounds. If it reaches the ground in that amount of time, it lands safely.not, it falls the rest of the distance, taking 1d6 points of damage per 10 feet of fall. <snip/> emphasis mine. |
| Tyreus11-18-03, 09:57 PM | Hey, Mo' I'm just notifying you that Cronk The Destroyer is ready. |
| fluiddragon11-18-03, 10:16 PM | Originally posted by cellardweller You would have to be flying pretty darned high for that to be a problem: . Well paint me yellow and call me suzy I should read some spell decriptions huh! |
| MadCowTemplate11-18-03, 10:16 PM | Wow, you guy's all make interesting points. That's quite a lot of information to be learned and discussed ... anyhow, about the fight I ran.:) I finished typing it up, but I desire to add flavor text. I forget what day it was when I said Tuesday evening, I may finish tonight. @Jindl AND MO: Here's my thought's on protection and sleep. The book says protection blocks mind-controlling effects including enchantment (compulsion). Sleep is listed as enchantment (compulsion). That's what my decision was based on. I think the only thing that could make it debatable is how you define the phrase, "effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject." Ongoing control is a somewhat vague statement. My personal opinion is that it aplies to sleep. But I suppose we need a definite rule for our arena. Has this been brought up before? Or is now the time to declare the official ruling? |
| Magagumo11-18-03, 10:24 PM | Hmm, sleep I would say isn't ongoing control, since the caster does not need to make any further commands to control the creature. Dominate, on the other hand, requires you to command or telepathically order the creature to make actions, so that is what I believe they mean by "ongoing control" (if they had meant sleep, they probably would have mentioned it, honestly.) As for the pre-buffs, my knee-jerk reaction has finally died away, and I realize how silly it is to argue over it. After all, it probably won't surprise anyone if Bruno extends Mage Armor ;) Oh, on the note of Bruno, since I have three characters and the 7th fight will be uneven, I will set him aside until we have more people at that level. Fortunately, 4th level has begun to fill up, and 5th level is also creeping up there. I figure in a week or two, the 7th and 8th level fights should be raring to go, filled with fresh bloo.. I mean recruits :) Edit: Just a note on Ebelin's tactics: There's no mention in the PHB that familiars get their master's feats. In fact, it says they "retain the feats of the normal animal it once was," so I'm not sure how Ashteru would have Improved Grapple ;) |
| Jindl11-18-03, 10:42 PM | Originally posted by Magagumo Oh, on the note of Bruno, since I have three characters and the 7th fight will be uneven, I will set him aside until we have more people at that level. Fortunately, 4th level has begun to fill up, and 5th level is also creeping up there. I figure in a week or two, the 7th and 8th level fights should be raring to go, filled with fresh bloo.. I mean recruits :) Actually, Mag, I was going to have the Elder sit out a week. So Bruno and Bilo can face each other for the first time (I've been wanting to see that fight. See, not run, it. Maybe Cat will run it. Not me, Cat. Again, no more wizards duels... No more. Un-uh. Nope. None. Grrr.) |
| SnarkHunter11-19-03, 12:05 AM | Hmm Well the other option to having the both of you sit out would be for me to unfreeze Moon a week early. I'd prolly unmark Hanz to make up for it but it would be fun to have a few 7th level fights. On the other hand if both Jindle and Bruno are going to sit it out...well I guess I'd unfreeze Moon anyway. If only so someone would get to 8th level. Anywho, yeah I think I'll do that now. Hmmm a few challenges (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1759419#post1759419) as well...not another Moon-moon vs. Bilo I assure you ;). |
| Market_Share11-19-03, 12:26 AM | As my first duty as a newcomer, and to become an acitve part of this community i have issued a challenge to Stinky Goblin on the approriate board. If my vote counts at this time, i would vote for pre-buffs to be visible on character sheets. Just my opinion, nothing else. I'll need to gain some experience before i have an opinion based on facts, but for now that's the best i can do. Spike |
| Moherajikuyx11-19-03, 04:36 AM | Originally posted by fluiddragon I think one thing we have to remember is that the arena cannot simulate normal adventuring conditions. There are a few things in a normal campaign you cannot do in the arena. :( So should I throw all this away... The scope of this arena is not only to have fun, but also to test campaign builds. Tell me, how often does it happen that the BBEG, who's not a monster usually but a NPC - way more dangerous than any dragon, expecially if the DM gets in love with him - announces himself and gives a whole minute to the wizos to buff??? IMCs, pcs have to pass through numerous greater disenchant areas prior to that kind of encounter... When they're lucky. MDK happens. I think that the arena could be similar to the campaign fights - and I'm working towards it. The buffs written on the sheet are the first experiment, that will help us determine the weight of such a move. |
| Moherajikuyx11-19-03, 04:38 AM | I'm updating the roster... PAIRINGS TODAY! |
| Irlina11-19-03, 05:14 AM | Lost 3 times in a row with Marcus (although I didn't see the last fight :) ), so it's time to let him rest in peace. New char is up: Ydaf, a dwarven melee cleric. Used magic and luck as domains, so lots of possible buffs... One question left: * Custom items are not allowed; only scroll and wands may be bought containing any spell. Potions, wondrous items, etc. can only be bought if they are printed in an allowed source. You may build your custom items, if you have the appropriate feats/skills. So can I buy a scroll Shield, still spell for 150gp? |
| Pitlords11-19-03, 06:15 AM | Uh! I shall be clearer. No, that is possible only by craft. Moherajikuyx |
| Moherajikuyx11-19-03, 06:38 AM | Today I have to drag with the pairings a bity... Yes, I work too, at times. ;( Cat & Jindl, if you wish you may send me your equipment: thus, it will be secret till after the pairings. You'll edit it afterwards and I'll check it. |
| Caterane11-19-03, 06:42 AM | @Mo: No no no, just returned home from yesteradys trip. Please give me half an hour to finish the one fun I have this week: updating my sheet @Jindl: I comment that fight later then. Have something to say :) |
| Moherajikuyx11-19-03, 07:20 AM | About that fight: 1- great work Jindl 2- we didn't till now, but I think that doing that kind of tricks with illusions involves a heavy quantity of bluff. Shall a bluff vs. sense motive roll not be needed, if some one tries to trick another one? I think it's needed. |
| Jindl11-19-03, 08:26 AM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx About that fight: 2- we didn't till now, but I think that doing that kind of tricks with illusions involves a heavy quantity of bluff. Shall a bluff vs. sense motive roll not be needed, if some one tries to trick another one? I think it's needed. If this were implemented it would be a house rule. The core rules don't link bluff to illusions. As a matter of fact, the complexity of the illusion has no bearing on the saving throw, in the Core rules. But if the illusion were way ... way ... out there, then the viewer automatically passes the save. If its just really complex, then the save still happens. In this case, Bilo got a second save vs ventriloquism with a +4 circumstance bonus, after Ebelin went invis again. That's because he knew that Ebelin had a ventriloquism spell running, but since the elf was invis, he didn't know for sure that the voice wasn't coming from his position. Thus the circ. bonus on the save (instead of automatically saving, or just an unmodified save.) The moderator is well within his scope to add circumstance bonuses and penalties, if the situation is extreme enough to warrant them. But remember a +2 is 10% more likely to succeed, so don't overdue the circumstance adjustments. RE: Scrolls - Actually, Mo, it says in the Core rules that scrolls can be made with metamagic feats attached. So, I don't see any problem with him buying a Stilled Shield scroll (its 150 gp, instead of 25 gp ...) Scrolls are supposed to be able to be any spell (and I think that should include metamagicked versions as well.) The extra cost is enough of a drawback, to prevent this from happening too much. -Jindl PS: I need a little time on the Elder and Jindl before pairings, please. Also, I have a new gladiator (Tomah the Iceman) who is active and ready. Turnip is inactive (though he keeps his didn't fight credit, I hope.) |
| Caterane11-19-03, 08:34 AM | Ebelin is ready! @Jindl: Wow, that was really great work. I would`ve even been pleased if I had lost after reading the first few rounds. Really, you were the first who described my bladesong style and man, I loved it!! I think we all should take this as a shinning example on how to better describe characters thus giving all arena participants a better imagination of one´s character. Again, great job. Oh and I can`t wait to get the revanche against Jindl. This time it won`t be that easy, I promise you @Mo: What about the monster fights? |
| Prexx11-19-03, 08:37 AM | Originally posted by fluiddragon I think we should give the bards and sorcerers more than 2 weeks to see how they do. A month would be a better test. This will accont for bad luck, because if the dice gods frown on you then nothing else matters. Ain't that the truth. If anybody hear can testify about bad luck, it's me. I have lost my last three fights in a row to bad luck. Two of them were due to an opponent scoring a natural 20 critical hit, and killing me in one hit. And the other fight I lost because I missed two ranged touch attacks in a row! (all I needed to roll was a measly 6!) Ohh, and please update Pyre Ashwood's name on the roster to Pyre the Cursed. Thanks! :) |
| Caterane11-19-03, 08:48 AM | Question: Let`s say I have an Oathbow and want to add the spellstoring enchantment (+1 modifier) . How`s that calculated? |
| Magagumo11-19-03, 08:52 AM | I like the idea of circumstance bonuses, Jindl, linking a skill to illusions, which already have a Will save as soon as you interact (i.e, touch a silent spell, or hear, smell, feel, etc. a more complex one) with them, only makes them harder to use. After all, True seeing does a nice job of annihilating all chances of using illusion ;) And, you can imagine that a sroceror pulls the illusion off through boldness, forcing the opponents to consider that maybe it is rweal, even if the image seems a little rough around the edges. A wizard, on the other hand, probabbly is integrating a meticulous amount of detail into his illusion, making it harder to determine what's real and what isn't. Aside from that note, I will happily unfreeze Bruno, provided there are two fights at 7th leel. Otherwise, I think it qould be better for us to cool our heels and wait for new challengers. |
| Caterane11-19-03, 09:02 AM | Hey hey hey, no freezing now!! I want to fight Jindl and I don`t think either Bruno vs Bilo and Elder vs Moon has been seen before and I long to see these fights! |
| Moherajikuyx11-19-03, 09:02 AM | Originally posted by Jindl If this were implemented it would be a house rule. [...] I need a little time on the Elder and Jindl before pairings, please. Also, I have a new gladiator (Tomah the Iceman) who is active and ready. Turnip is inactive (though he keeps his didn't fight credit, I hope.) OK, I was just wondering. It makes a good house rule. The pairings will be done within 3 hours... CU pals! |
| Caterane11-19-03, 09:15 AM | :bigeyes: I just checked the oathbow. CL 15??? Oh my, and after that I checked if there`s anything at all that I can craft with my feat - nothing (asides from a +1 weapon :mad: ). Is the CL important now or may I craft it if I have the money. Spellstoring weapon Ebelin @lvl 16, a bit far away in my opinion. Really not that useful anytime soon. |
| Irlina11-19-03, 09:39 AM | @Jindl I like the Iceman. But where did he steal the potion of invi? |
| Jindl11-19-03, 10:00 AM | Originally posted by Irlina @Jindl I like the Iceman. But where did he steal the potion of invi? ? He bought it from the DMG for 300 gp ? I'm not sure I understand your question... But, I'm glad you like him. He was mostly your idea, after all !! -Jindl @ Cat - CL is still a requirement, according to the DMG, so that's the core rule. It sucks, 'cause the Elder would love to have crafted something by now... and Jindl is waiting until 9th to get Craft Arms and Armor, for the same reason (why take the feat I you ain't got the caster level to make anything.) |
| Caterane11-19-03, 10:08 AM | Yeah, wait until I have my Mithril celestial armor Muahahahaha +8 Ac, +10 max dex, 5% spell failure, fly 1/d, 17000 Gold Oh, Pharuan Mizzrim is a Sun Elf, not core. |
| Irlina11-19-03, 10:16 AM | @ Jindl: Just wanted to know where in the Caves he got this potion. Nothing serious ;) @Cat: celestrial armor seems to be made of Mithril already (or kind of, the max dex is too high, it's too good for that price!!!). It's unique, so don't add any new qualities- else it gets even more broken. And Sun Elf seems just to be a pseudo for Grey Elf. |
| fluiddragon11-19-03, 10:42 AM | Originally posted by Caterane :bigeyes: I just checked the oathbow. CL 15??? Oh my, and after that I checked if there`s anything at all that I can craft with my feat - nothing (asides from a +1 weapon :mad: ). Is the CL important now or may I craft it if I have the money. Spellstoring weapon Ebelin @lvl 16, a bit far away in my opinion. Really not that useful anytime soon. If you remember any of the conversation last week I had this same problem with Gage, and was going to retire him if I couldn't change out the feat. In 3.0 the CL was a suggestion now in 3.5 it is a requirement. Which is bad IMHO. But oh well. Many/Most of the CL requirements are way to high and quite arbitrary, not inline with the power level of the item you are creating. This is one of the things about 3.5 I hate. One of the things I always hated about 2e was the vast number of low level magic items but absolutely no game mechanic reason to make a low level item, when you could just make the higher. 3.0 fixed this and 3.5 screwed it up again, oh well least they got rid of the stuiped druid weapon restrictions! 3.5 is the best edition yet but somethings slipped through the cracks. I don't know if Mo would be open to it but if there was a vote to declare the CL requirement for magic items void I would vote yes for it. But as it is, the craft feats are really not very good untill you pass 10-11th level. |
| Moherajikuyx11-19-03, 11:07 AM | Do you guys know something I don't? Magic weps & armors have only CL 3xbonus AFAIK. Anyways... FREEEZEE! Pairings under course, no sheet editing from now on. Bye! *edit* who knows what's an asaik? |
| Moherajikuyx11-19-03, 12:01 PM | Hey People... U - R - PAIRED Remember: don't edit the sheet till the fight! If you do, you'll lose automatically. |
| SnarkHunter11-19-03, 12:49 PM | Wee ha, sounds like fun. Hey Jindle/Cat, I though we were going to be holding off on the 8th level fights for a few weeks to get some new blood? That no go now? Rats. |
| Caterane11-19-03, 12:59 PM | @Snark: Vengeance :devil: @Jindl: Huh? 3000 Gp missing? ...checks... you are good, man |
| Jindl11-19-03, 01:50 PM | Originally posted by SnarkHunter Wee ha, sounds like fun. Hey Jindle/Cat, I though we were going to be holding off on the 8th level fights for a few weeks to get some new blood? That no go now? Rats. I like the idea of waiting for new blood, but Cat really, really wants this rematch. So, why don't we stop at 9th and wait until we've got 8 competitors? Especially since we do have some sorta new match-ups at the higher levels this round. I'll agree to this if the other high level players will. -Jindl EDIT: Cat, do you think I spent that 3000 gp wisely? EDIT: Now taking bets, who thinks the Harvester will hand Iron the Panza his first loss? Anyone?? |
| Caterane11-19-03, 03:09 PM | It`s not a "really really must have". If we agreed to stop here we can also do it that way but in that case I want to see the monster fights. Perhaps Jindl and Ebelin vs a random monster or everyone gets his own. That would be nice too. As a reward we just get a small part of the original prize. |
| Magagumo11-19-03, 03:50 PM | Mmmm... monster fights.. Elder and Bruno together, whose way is better?!! Bilo and Bruno attached by a 10' chain, who will die first? The monster, or the first one to turn his back on the other? ;) Iron vs. Harvester.. this should be interesting... Yay! Moderating Jindl again, it's been awhile :) *Sigh* and it seems Zorander sits out because Lora wasn't ready... ah well, guess I'll just have to save that resist energy potion ;) |
| Jindl11-19-03, 03:53 PM | Let's do monster fights at 9th level ... just to get that extra spell level :) -Jindl Well, that would be 4th level spells for Ebelin (assuming you progress with another level of wizo)... or 5th level spells for Jindl (I am planning on progressing in druid, if I am lucky enough to win...) But 9th gives straight casters 5th level spells... Its also a feat level. Good place to stop and wait for more competitors, imo. -Jindl |
| Caterane11-19-03, 03:57 PM | Which spell level? :( |
| Moherajikuyx11-19-03, 04:00 PM | Originally posted by Magagumo *Sigh* and it seems Zorander sits out because Lora wasn't ready... ah well, guess I'll just have to save that resist energy potion ;) Talking of which... If she becomes ready and it's ok with you, I don't have problems at allowing the fight. :rofl: People guess what error I just found in Iron's sheet! I'm a bad minmaxer. Those who lost against him are worst, though!!! He's got a nice 16 in Cos, not 14. |
| Jindl11-19-03, 04:10 PM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx People guess what error I just found in Iron's sheet! I'm a bad minmaxer. Those who lost against him are worst, though!!! He's got a nice 16 in Cos, not 14. I don't think Iron has ever needed to make a concentration check. But you are right... his skill modifier is based on a 16 Con, not a 14 Con (as it should be). His skills should be +10 (with another +2 when raging, as if it matters...since you can't cast when raging.) -Jindl EDIT: Now Mo, don't edit your sheet, or you'll automatically lose... ;) |
| Tyreus11-19-03, 04:52 PM | I was wondering if we are allowed to make are own items using the rules in the back of the 3.5 DMG. If so, then whats to stop someone from making all their stuff charged per day? example: I want a Belt of Giant Strength +6. Normally 36,000. If I have it usable 1/day, then the price is 7,200. Since we know we are only fighting once in that day, thats not a problem. Also, can we cut the price by having the item be specific? example: A +5 vorpal greatsword that is only usable by neutral barbarians. That cuts the price by 30%, making the sword cost only 140,000 compared to 200,000. Is this allowed? |
| Caterane11-19-03, 05:09 PM | @Tyreus: No custom made items |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-19-03, 05:27 PM | Originally posted by Jindl EDIT: Now taking bets, who thinks the Harvester will hand Iron the Panza his first loss? Anyone?? Since i'm the moderator, it wouldn't be approriate for me to place any bets on this one. LOL However, i'm not above talking to someone on the sly if they wish to set something up? :angel: :smirk: LOL. I'm very interested in reading the tactics. Should be a titanic mounted battle either way, unless someone pulls out some kind of suprise. Please send me those tactcs ASAP. This is very imperative as i will be leaving for the weekend and it will require much attention. Also, since i've seen both those moderators place the rider in a specific square when moding fights, plz note that the rider is considered to be in ALL the squares as per mounted combat rules phb. So make sure your tactics take that into account as that's how i'll be running it. Tellish |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-19-03, 05:29 PM | Originally posted by Caterane @Tyreus: No custom made items Can a player eventually craft intelligent weapons? *EDIT or Iron Golems? Tellish |
| MotherBast11-19-03, 05:34 PM | In this weeks pairings, I'm listed as Octavian's owner in the level 5 fights. He aint mine. Also, Brackin is sitting out for the "lowest number" policey. I was just wondering what this policey is, or if its just that I lost the dosen't fight roll. One more question. Now that we are alowing characters with LA+ adjustments to start at level 3, what new races are available, and can a LA+ 1 race start at level 3 with 2 class levels? Or is it just for LA+2 races to start with one class level? Do LA+2 races get there racial hitdice? It would be hard to compete at level 3 with only one hitdie. |
| Magagumo11-19-03, 05:41 PM | Constructing intelligent weapons, constructs, and custom weapons is conceivable, provided we see some straight casters in the clerical ranks ;). Johan is one of the few straight clerics, I believe, though our fighter/clerics are probably in good shape themselves. One comment on the custom items: Items with constant effects probably should not be converted to /day use, as their costs often have hidden modifiers in them (for example, there's no spell that grants +6 strength, but we have an item that does it nonetheless). Other stuff is probably legit, provided we can approve it first. One note, I would highly reccommend not allowing specific items, the whole crafting towards your race or alignment just seems like an easy way to get stuff for cheap with few repercussions for the player (esp. in this Arena). I don't even use it in my games, unless one had an racial relic (super elven sword) or an item passed down by an order of some class. As for golems, I believe the Elder is the only one progressing anywhere near that possibility at this point (Cay golems are cool for clerics, but that beserk chance is scary), and a wizard with Craft Magic Arms & Armor definetely is loosing something in that feat.. until they bring in the nigh unkillable constructs that is ;) (Fireball your iron golem while it's in melee with the fighter!! :-D) Cost of crafting constructs is in MM, along with required feat (Craft COnstruct), but don't forget that the XP cost is converted into 5 gp for each XP point you would have spent. |
| Jindl11-19-03, 05:45 PM | Originally posted by MotherBast Also, Brackin is sitting out for the "lowest number" policey. I was just wondering what this policey is, or if its just that I lost the dosen't fight roll. One more question. Now that we are alowing characters with LA+ adjustments to start at level 3, what new races are available, and can a LA+ 1 race start at level 3 with 2 class levels? Or is it just for LA+2 races to start with one class level? Do LA+2 races get there racial hitdice? It would be hard to compete at level 3 with only one hitdie. 1. "Lowest number" policy - whoever has the most # of active characters sits out. If there is a tie, then Mo makes a "doesn't fight" roll. 2. It's not so much that we're allowing LA+ whatever, its that we are allowing ECL3 characters to begin, though they count as 2 pc's for the life of the character. Some examples can be found at the link Mo posted to my post of racial listings (on the Gladiators page at the top.) Any creature with one racial hitdie, has that hit die replaced by their class hit die. Thus a drow fighter1 (ECL3) has a 10+con hps. A drow wizard1 (ECL3) has 4+con hps. Yep, sucks to have a big LA+. (Note, drow are humanoid and thus would normally have a d8 hps, if they were classless, which they cannot be because they have only 1 racial hit die.) A classless lizardman (ECL3, can be classless because they have 2 racial hit dice) starts with 8+5+conx2 = 13 +conx2 hps for its two humanoid hit dice. It cannot take a class level until after it wins its first fight, at which point its hitdice will be: 2d8+class hit die+conx3. Does this answer your question? -Jindl Originally posted by Magagumo As for golems, I believe the Elder is the only one progressing anywhere near that possibility at this point (Cay golems are cool for clerics, but that beserk chance is scary), and a wizard with Craft Magic Arms & Armor definetely is loosing something in that feat.. until they bring in the nigh unkillable constructs that is (Fireball your iron golem while it's in melee with the fighter!! :-D) You read my mind. Yep, the Elder already has plans for an advanced Stone Golem (muhahahaha). Maybe he can fight Bruno's giant skeleton? |
| MadCowTemplate11-19-03, 07:07 PM | I cannot express enough how confused I have been in the last twenty-four hours or so. I not only lost track of what day it was, I deleted the portion of my brain that knows how to track that. Although I didn't finish the (pointless :eek:) flavor text, now that I realise what day it is, I've posted the Marcus / Peter fight. I sort of feel responsible for making Marcus retire, but ... well I guess I don't really have anything else to say about that, except I'm sorry if my decision about sleep bothered you. My apologies to Mag for not having Lora ready. Feel free to vengefully challenge her for making Zorander wait. In return, I promise not to take too much advantage of the fact you mentioned your resist fire. ;) Being that I'm silly from lack of sleep, I'd like to leave with this thought: What happens to a Beholder's eye when he removes it to become a mage? Ever hear the song "Eye In the Sky" by Alan Parson's Project? A flying, psychic monster that cannot be flanked and naturally produces an anti-magic sphere. :behold: minus :tantrum: equals :w: |
| MadCowTemplate11-19-03, 07:07 PM | D'OH! |
| MadCowTemplate11-19-03, 07:17 PM | . . . . . . . . . |
| Caterane11-19-03, 08:05 PM | Tactics received from Tellish @Sloisel: Your mails are blocked by my spam filter. Looks like the program analyses your tactics *lol* just kidding. Please use another method to email me or try messaging though I would prefer an email Edit: Sloisel, never mind. Got it. |
| Prexx11-19-03, 09:38 PM | Originally posted by Tyreus I was wondering if we are allowed to make are own items using the rules in the back of the 3.5 DMG. If so, then whats to stop someone from making all their stuff charged per day? example: I want a Belt of Giant Strength +6. Normally 36,000. If I have it usable 1/day, then the price is 7,200. Since we know we are only fighting once in that day, thats not a problem. Also, can we cut the price by having the item be specific? example: A +5 vorpal greatsword that is only usable by neutral barbarians. That cuts the price by 30%, making the sword cost only 140,000 compared to 200,000. Is this allowed? Well there are two things in the core arena rules that would prevent what you are talking about. One rule is that you can only create custom items if you posess the appropriate feats/levels/spells. The second is that use activated items require an action to use, and must be tied directly to a specific spell. Thus a 1/day belt of giant strength would not work. You could make a 1/day empowered bull strength belt which would achieve a very similar effect. The cost would be 7392 gp (2000(use activated base price) * 4(spell lvl) * 7(caster lvl) * .2(1 charge/day) * .66(self crafted item)). The resulting effect from the item would give you +6 str for 70 rounds, but you could only craft this item if you were at least a 7th level cleric or druid, or 14th level paladin(price to create for a paladin would be twice as much, as a paladin must be lvl 14 to cast 4th lvl spells) with the craft wonderous item feat and empower spell feat. Also, since a belt of giant strength requires caster lvl 10 to craft, it would be reasonable to assume that such an item would most like also require you to be a 10th level in order to create. All in all, the system seems pretty fair to me. As for making items that are specific to your class/race/alignment at a 30% discount. Yeah, that does seem sort of cheesy, and probably needs to be removed. Nobody has really pushed that issue yet though. PS. Tactics sent for Pyre, let me know if you have any trouble recieving them sshuit. |
| fluiddragon11-19-03, 09:46 PM | Got tactics for Hurtz and Paul will run the fight tomorow night. Send tactics for Gage. Mo: Just wanted to let you know I appreciate a fight with 2 fighters this week. I know I said I couldn't mod but these fights do take less time so I can do it. Lets see how Gage does against Cur. Should be a hell of a match. |
| Market_Share11-19-03, 09:59 PM | Is it possible to permanently lose our characters if upon losing a fight to a 5th+ cleric and he/she casts animates dead on us to begin creating a horde of undead? I read the rules for bringing companions, but what about a druid/cleric with the leadership feat making undead hordes? The reason i ask, is as i was flipping through the characters i think i noticed only one pure cleric. So i was thinking maybe next week of introducing a chaotic evil cleric who'll one day create legions of undead, and pop 2 levels in druid for a companion (amongst other bonuses) and grab the leadership feat at 6th. Also this evil wannabe ruler of the world will have the Chaos/Evil domains with summons, making his chaotic evil creatures he summons 2 lvls higher along with the benefits from augmented summoning. Just curious how that is handled before i actually build it. And it will save me flipping back through 72 pages of posts if it's already been discusses. If it doesn't work then i'll take a couple more weeks to work on something else. Spike |
| sshuit11-19-03, 11:00 PM | Hi there guys, just a little snag on my end. My internet is currently extremely unreliable, and I will be getting a new ADSL modem in the next 4-6 days. I have received the tactics for the fight I have to mod, but it may be delayed a wee bit if my computer keeps acting up. I apologize to all those involved and if I can't get the fight done by monday perhaps another mod would volunteer to take it off my hands? Again, many apologies but my ISP is doing everything it can to get things back to normal. |
| sshuit11-19-03, 11:00 PM | Hi there guys, just a little snag on my end. My internet is currently extremely unreliable, and I will be getting a new ADSL modem in the next 4-6 days. I have received the tactics for the fight I have to mod, but it may be delayed a wee bit if my computer keeps acting up. I apologize to all those involved and if I can't get the fight done by monday perhaps another mod would volunteer to take it off my hands? Again, many apologies but my ISP is doing everything it can to get things back to normal. |
| sshuit11-19-03, 11:00 PM | Hi there guys, just a little snag on my end. My internet is currently extremely unreliable, and I will be getting a new ADSL modem in the next 4-6 days. I have received the tactics for the fight I have to mod, but it may be delayed a wee bit if my computer keeps acting up. I apologize to all those involved and if I can't get the fight done by monday perhaps another mod would volunteer to take it off my hands? Again, many apologies but my ISP is doing everything it can to get things back to normal. |
| sshuit11-19-03, 11:00 PM | Hi there guys, just a little snag on my end. My internet is currently extremely unreliable, and I will be getting a new ADSL modem in the next 4-6 days. I have received the tactics for the fight I have to mod, but it may be delayed a wee bit if my computer keeps acting up. I apologize to all those involved and if I can't get the fight done by monday perhaps another mod would volunteer to take it off my hands? Again, many apologies but my ISP is doing everything it can to get things back to normal. |
| sshuit11-19-03, 11:00 PM | Hi there guys, just a little snag on my end. My internet is currently extremely unreliable, and I will be getting a new ADSL modem in the next 4-6 days. I have received the tactics for the fight I have to mod, but it may be delayed a wee bit if my computer keeps acting up. I apologize to all those involved and if I can't get the fight done by monday perhaps another mod would volunteer to take it off my hands? Again, many apologies but my ISP is doing everything it can to get things back to normal. |
| sshuit11-19-03, 11:00 PM | Hi there guys, just a little snag on my end. My internet is currently extremely unreliable, and I will be getting a new ADSL modem in the next 4-6 days. I have received the tactics for the fight I have to mod, but it may be delayed a wee bit if my computer keeps acting up. I apologize to all those involved and if I can't get the fight done by monday perhaps another mod would volunteer to take it off my hands? Again, many apologies but my ISP is doing everything it can to get things back to normal. |
| sshuit11-19-03, 11:00 PM | Hi there guys, just a little snag on my end. My internet is currently extremely unreliable, and I will be getting a new ADSL modem in the next 4-6 days. I have received the tactics for the fight I have to mod, but it may be delayed a wee bit if my computer keeps acting up. I apologize to all those involved and if I can't get the fight done by monday perhaps another mod would volunteer to take it off my hands? Again, many apologies but my ISP is doing everything it can to get things back to normal. |
| sshuit11-19-03, 11:00 PM | Hi there guys, just a little snag on my end. My internet is currently extremely unreliable, and I will be getting a new ADSL modem in the next 4-6 days. I have received the tactics for the fight I have to mod, but it may be delayed a wee bit if my computer keeps acting up. I apologize to all those involved and if I can't get the fight done by monday perhaps another mod would volunteer to take it off my hands? Again, many apologies but my ISP is doing everything it can to get things back to normal. |
| sshuit11-19-03, 11:00 PM | Hi there guys, just a little snag on my end. My internet is currently extremely unreliable, and I will be getting a new ADSL modem in the next 4-6 days. I have received the tactics for the fight I have to mod, but it may be delayed a wee bit if my computer keeps acting up. I apologize to all those involved and if I can't get the fight done by monday perhaps another mod would volunteer to take it off my hands? Again, many apologies but my ISP is doing everything it can to get things back to normal. |
| Jindl11-19-03, 11:02 PM | Did somebody hear an echo?? -Jindl Did somebody hear an echo?? -Jindl Did somebody hear an echo?? -Jindl Did somebody hear an echo?? -Jindl Did somebody hear an echo?? -Jindl Did somebody hear an echo?? -Jindl :rofl: |
| Prexx11-19-03, 11:56 PM | I have a lot of free time on my hands recently. I will be able to mod one or two fights each week if needed. If someone else needs to mod the Pyre vs Peter fight, please let me know so I can send the tactics as soon as possible. |
| sshuit11-20-03, 12:05 AM | sorry about the quintiple+ post. This is one of the symptoms of my Internet instability. It wouldn't let me delete the copies. I will be able to run Pyre vs peter, just might be tricky to get it posted. sshuit |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-20-03, 12:09 AM | Sshuit, can you pm me your tactics then? I have Tyreus's and would like to get it out of the way. I will be leaving early friday and thus need to have all the fights i'm modding done tomorrow. Or i can just use ur default tactics if you wish. Lemme know what you wanna do. Tellish |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-20-03, 02:38 AM | The winner may not be who you expected. This fight, in my opinion and probably many arena vets, is a classic example of good tactics vs bad tactics. Never take things for granted and never assume your enemy will stay put, and do what you expect. Enjoy the read while waiting for the 30+ round high lvl fights that bards will sing about. Although short, this could be a fight sung somewhere in a tavern. Tellish |
| sloisel11-20-03, 04:01 AM | Originally posted by Tyreus I was wondering if we are allowed to make are own items using the rules in the back of the 3.5 DMG. If so, then whats to stop someone from making all their stuff charged per day? example: I want a Belt of Giant Strength +6. Normally 36,000. If I have it usable 1/day, then the price is 7,200. Since we know we are only fighting once in that day, thats not a problem. I'm hoping we're not using those rules. The object you point out is an example why, but there are many other, very disturbing examples. Any item of always-on haste or timestop is a problem, although such an item would be expensive. Staves as they are are very expensive, but you can build a staff that doesn't have any charge-using powers and that, e.g., casts magic missile at will. Furthermore, the more powers you add to the staff, the cheaper it gets. And with the staves, the spell actually scales with your caster level. So you end up with a wizard (or whatever) that can cast more spells than a sorcerer. This is the example I was looking at several months ago when I was trying to figure out how to best use staves. Another aspect is that this part of the rules is subjective (the bottom part of table 7-33 in particular.) All told, I'm hoping we're not using the section labelled "creating magic items" which is mainly about creating new magic items that don't already exist in the DMG. Both of my characters (the one I'm actually playing and the one I might play later) are spellcasters, and one is very likely to have item creation feats, but I think this is a can of worms. I'm willing to nerf myself by restricting myself to items with actual entries in chapter 7. I don't intend to make magical armor and weapons, but the rule for those if you just look at DMG216-229 are simple enough to work. However, I don't think it would be a super good idea to add arbitrary customizations from the section you are refering to. Sébastien Loisel |
| Caterane11-20-03, 07:33 AM | Muahahahahaha Cronk :rofl: |
| sshuit11-20-03, 09:49 AM | @tyreus. That'll teach ya to taunt a paladin. I really like the way your tactics reflected an intelligence of 6 . Good role-play! :D |
| Jindl11-20-03, 11:06 AM | RE: Custom magic items. I think that crafters should be able to make the standard wondrous items only, the standard improvements to magic weapons and armor only, and the standard rings, staves and rods. Wands, potions and scrolls should be fully customizable with spells and metamagic of the crafters choice. Anything else is by definition, not Core, and thus I don't think it should be used in the arena. Plus, these custom items in a campaign must be approved by the DM. Who is the DM in the arena that gets to approve these items? That's another problem with allowing custom items (other than the wands, potions and scrolls). In regards to Cat's question, the special weapons and armor are just that ... special. They unique combination of magic and enhancements gives them their special powers. As such, I don't think they can be improved upon (indeed there is no rules specific about improving an oathbow, holy avenger, celestial chain mail, or any of these unique arms and armor). Luckily, spells like greater magic weapon and magic vestment can still enhance these weapons as far as +'s go... I don't see any problem with someone making an intelligent item. The rules are very clear about how to do it. I would suggest if an intelligent item is being made, then use the standard online roller when randomly determining its minor and major powers (the link is on the gladiators page.) That way, there is no question that the powers were generated fairly. Note: You must be caster level 15 before crafting these items, so it is a ways off. And I don't think you should be allowed to buy intelligent items, only make them. -Jindl @Tellish - Please note at the end of the fight you ran, that the paladin's scimitar is repaired for free. Just to avoid confusion. |
| Irlina11-20-03, 11:24 AM | What Jindl says really makes sense and could avoid lots of problems with custom magic items. Only one point I don't like: I don't like the idea of rolling for intelligent items. We avoid rolls on hit points on leveling up because the amount of randomness. And if we want to check builds, we should avoid random as much as possible except for the fights (rolling is needed in them and can't be avoided ;) ). But lvl. 15 spellcasters could need some time... |
| Jindl11-20-03, 11:34 AM | Originally posted by Market_Share Is it possible to permanently lose our characters if upon losing a fight to a 5th+ cleric and he/she casts animates dead on us to begin creating a horde of undead? I read the rules for bringing companions, but what about a druid/cleric with the leadership feat making undead hordes? The reason i ask, is as i was flipping through the characters i think i noticed only one pure cleric. So i was thinking maybe next week of introducing a chaotic evil cleric who'll one day create legions of undead, and pop 2 levels in druid for a companion (amongst other bonuses) and grab the leadership feat at 6th. Also this evil wannabe ruler of the world will have the Chaos/Evil domains with summons, making his chaotic evil creatures he summons 2 lvls higher along with the benefits from augmented summoning. Just curious how that is handled before i actually build it. And it will save me flipping back through 72 pages of posts if it's already been discusses. If it doesn't work then i'll take a couple more weeks to work on something else. Spike 1. No, you will be restored (via wish or miracle if necessary) after the fight. Besides, the casting time on animate dead is too long for him to do it before the fight was declared over and the arena doc's got to you. 2. Regardless of how many companions you qualify for (due to leadership, familiars, animated dead, etc...) you may only bring 1 into the arena. Once the fight begins, feel free to summon more. Thus, the idea of entering with a horde of undead, will likely never happen. 3. Also, you can't be a Chaotic Evil Cleric/Druid (conflicts with the druid req's.) And to take both Chaos and Evil domains, you must be Chaotic Evil. So this combination is out. Welcome to the Arena, btw. Make sure you reserve a spot on the Polls thread. And I see that you are using the Roleplay thread already. That's great, but FYI: It works like the polls thread, in that you edit your original post with whatever role-play you wish to say. Don't make a new post each time, please. It helps avoid unecessary scrolling. |
| Magagumo11-20-03, 11:45 AM | Note on Empowered Bulls' Str: This is no longer a viable tactic, as the +4 is not a variable, so the empower aspect ignores it. As for improving the special weapons and armor, it's actually very easy. If you take the rhino armor, which is listed as a +2 hide armor, and you'd like to add a +1 bonus to it, then simply add the difference between the cost of a +3 armor (9k) and a +2 armor (4k) so simply add 5k to the listed price. This works the same for everything, you just need to use standard upgrade costs, as their special powers are not powerful enough (often too specific) to warrant an actual bonus cost (+1), so the ability is simply given a base cost which is added to the armor or weapon. Easy :-D An undead summoning cleric?? yay!! Ah, I've been waiting for Bruno's divine conterpart. Just wait till you cast Create Undead and grab vampire minions :-P (Wizards and sorcerors can do this, but we don't have any way to direct control the undead... as demonstrated in this clip: Bruno: Mwahahaha, arise my deadly elven vampire! Together we shall crush the Elder! Elven Vampire: Hmm... yes, you do provide an interesting suggestion, but I'd rather just consume an illusionist/necromancer gnome. *Grins and bares fangs* Bruno: Eep As you see, it would be foolish for Bruno to create that which he can't control, while the cleric simply turns the vampire (decent Charisma, straight cleric) and makes it his servant. Good luck, cleric of the undead! :) Edit: Staves do not actually get cheaper as you add spells, those spells are simply reduced in price as you add more (because, you still can only use a stave once per round, and they are all based off the same pool of 50 charges). On the note of custom items, the rules regarding time durations are incredibly well-done in 3.5. As long as we only allow the casters to create the items, we should be fine, with some eyes kept on certain items (Shield for example). Haste is far less powerful nowadays then it's 3.0 incarnation, making a haste at will item barely useful for the people who can create them (sorcerors and wizards), cost is (3x5x2000x4 (rounds duration)=120k. If you want it, you'll pay for it. |
| Moherajikuyx11-20-03, 11:55 AM | Yes, Jindl's got it right, now there are no customizable items but wands, potions and scrolls. The special armors and weapons are not customizable. *edit* As usual this is not set in stone, we can discuss about. I saw that Gage still has the default tactic of preparing holded charges before the match. Yes sure, but before the match all have to hold the hand to the referee... The referee is usually carried away burned, paralyzed, shocked and frost, and also somewhat bitter and sad. I think I already told this is wasn't possible. (Curungur's got some charged spells too, but come on, this is waaaay too cheesey...) |
| Magagumo11-20-03, 12:11 PM | Actually, Moh, I would say walking in with a held charge is really not a problem. After all, you can't cast any spells without losing the charge, and it will need to count towards your spells for that day (one can't sleep without touching something). Thusly, i say let them walk in with them, it's their funeral if they want to wait to cast spells until they've reached their opponent. The Roger vs. Cronk fight looked great, though I'm a little curious what the ride check for "releasing a scimitar from its tether" was? I don't have my PHB by me at this moment, but I don't recall anything like that, and if it was due to the "1" on the skill check, that does not equal a critical miss. That should be clarified to everyone new to the arena: Attack rolls, saves, ability checks (Trip, grapple, etc.) can be affected by a critical success or failure, but skill checks (Escape artist, spot, ride checks, etc.) cannot be critically failed or critically succeeded unless othewise noted (I believe Use Magic Device is one of the few skills with a note on rolling a 1) To the Mods of my fights, I will try and get tactics out tonight (I have a 3hr game Im in, and a Physics test tomorrow). Otherwise, you will recieve them Friday evening. (I am not in my room at the moment, but rather at work waiting for items to print ^_~). |
| Moherajikuyx11-20-03, 12:14 PM | What about the familiar? If the familiar loses the charge too, that's sound. |
| fluiddragon11-20-03, 01:15 PM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Yes, Jindl's got it right, now there are no customizable items but wands, potions and scrolls. The special armors and weapons are not customizable. *edit* As usual this is not set in stone, we can discuss about. I saw that Gage still has the default tactic of preparing holded charges before the match. Yes sure, but before the match all have to hold the hand to the referee... The referee is usually carried away burned, paralyzed, shocked and frost, and also somewhat bitter and sad. I think I already told this is wasn't possible. (Curungur's got some charged spells too, but come on, this is waaaay too cheesey...) Actually I asked twice on the board with no responce and noted that in the tactics. Its not still there I added it for the first time tuesday night. Also there is nothing in the rules that says we hold hands with anybody. If thats the case I get Candy! LOL Yes its cheesy! But if it was legal then I was going for it. If this is not legal we should put a note in the rules under prebuffs because technically it is legal. Duration instantaneous, and none of the spell descriptions state that it has to be used in "x" ammount of time. @barrel. Give me an hour or two to adjust my tactics minus the prebuffs as it will significantly change what I was going to do. edit: And in rergards to the pre buff, we are using 16 hrs not 24 right now, unless I am mistaken, so I don't even have to sleep with it. Plus I make a melee touch attack to discharge it. A mere touch don't dischrage the spells you have to spend an attack action to dischrage the spell. It doesn't go off simply by brushing by something, or picking your nose, you have to attack. I take this similar to invisibility. You metaly release the charge in an touch attack, just like you become visible if you attack with invisibility. There is no side bar for touch spells that say its like burning fire and anthing that even gets close to it is going to get hurt. Its not that fragile, according strictly to the rules. In a game with a DM it may be another matter, as it is their call. But going by the book it says you need to make an attack to discharge it not mearly touch something. |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-20-03, 01:36 PM | Originally posted by Magagumo The Roger vs. Cronk fight looked great, though I'm a little curious what the ride check for "releasing a scimitar from its tether" was? I don't have my PHB by me at this moment, but I don't recall anything like that, and if it was due to the "1" on the skill check, that does not equal a critical miss. That should be clarified to everyone new to the arena: Attack rolls, saves, ability checks (Trip, grapple, etc.) can be affected by a critical success or failure, but skill checks (Escape artist, spot, ride checks, etc.) cannot be critically failed or critically succeeded unless othewise noted (I believe Use Magic Device is one of the few skills with a note on rolling a 1) It wasn't a critical miss. It was just flavor to show that he failed his ride check and thus couldn't attack with the mount. Sorry if you were confused. I'm well aware of the rules on Nat 1's and their applications. **EDIT -- Ability checks are not affected by Nat 1's. They are still skill checks that simply use an ability in place of skills. Tellish |
| Jindl11-20-03, 01:46 PM | Originally posted by Magagumo As for improving the special weapons and armor, it's actually very easy. If you take the rhino armor, which is listed as a +2 hide armor, and you'd like to add a +1 bonus to it, then simply add the difference between the cost of a +3 armor (9k) and a +2 armor (4k) so simply add 5k to the listed price. This works the same for everything, you just need to use standard upgrade costs, as their special powers are not powerful enough (often too specific) to warrant an actual bonus cost (+1), so the ability is simply given a base cost which is added to the armor or weapon. Easy :-D Actually, this does not work out correctly. Improving +2 wild hide armor to +3 wild hide armor is much, much more than 5k. The same could be true for any special armor (special as in having more abilities than just a +2 enhancement bonus). It is a grey area in how much the special abilities of specific armors are worth. Plus, I still think the idea is that these are very specific armor pieces and as such cannot be improved. Originally posted by Magagumo An undead summoning cleric?? yay!! Ah, I've been waiting for Bruno's divine conterpart. Just wait till you cast Create Undead and grab vampire minions :-P (Wizards and sorcerors can do this, but we don't have any way to direct control the undead... as demonstrated in this clip: As you see, it would be foolish for Bruno to create that which he can't control, while the cleric simply turns the vampire (decent Charisma, straight cleric) and makes it his servant. Good luck, cleric of the undead! :) Bruno could take the leadership feat, then create a vampire to be his cohort... Originally posted by Magagumo Edit: Staves do not actually get cheaper as you add spells, those spells are simply reduced in price as you add more (because, you still can only use a stave once per round, and they are all based off the same pool of 50 charges). On the note of custom items, the rules regarding time durations are incredibly well-done in 3.5. As long as we only allow the casters to create the items, we should be fine, with some eyes kept on certain items (Shield for example). Haste is far less powerful nowadays then it's 3.0 incarnation, making a haste at will item barely useful for the people who can create them (sorcerors and wizards), cost is (3x5x2000x4 (rounds duration)=120k. If you want it, you'll pay for it. Look at the price for a ring of invisibility, or a ring of blinking. Both are off from what the "creation rules" call for. That's why a DM has to price these items. And that's why custom items require DM evaluation and approval. As such, they should not be allowed in the arena, without some way on instituting a DM to govern them. -Jindl EDIT: I do think the idea of beginning the fight while holding a charge is not the brightest tactic, but it is within the scope of the rules, and I would allow it (but that spell counts against your available slots ... etc.) Consider it another type of prebuff, list it on your character sheet, and go from there. I agree with fluid's analyis about making an attack roll to discharge a touch spell. I don't think you can accidently trigger one. It must be a purposeful act to activate the held charge. Re: Nat 1's on ability checks. Tellish is correct. A Str check to open a door is not subject to critical success or failure. A turning check is not subject either (its a Cha ability check variant.) But Grapple checks are NOT ability checks. They are attacks (and thus are subject to critical success and failure). Magagumo had grapple checks listed in the wrong category is all. They should have been grouped with attacks and saves (which are the only things normally subject to critical success and failure). An easy way to figure this is, can you take weapon focus with {insert item} ? For example, you can't take weapon focus (Trip), therefore trip is not an attack and is not subject to critical success/failure. But you can take weapon focus (grapple) and so it is. Does this make sense to you guys? |
| fluiddragon11-20-03, 02:17 PM | I sent out revised tactics for Gage without the prebuffs. Please use these instead. If the touch spell prebuff is a touchy;) issue then lets just hold a vote on it! In games I run I don't allow it to last more than an hour per spell level, but then my game isn't core either! -fd |
| barrel_master11-20-03, 02:22 PM | ^Okay. Also, does anyone have the link to the old character sheet 'template'? Thank you. |
| sloisel11-20-03, 02:26 PM | Originally posted by Jindl (about magic item creation) I'm glad I'm not the only one who would rather stick to standard items. EDIT: I do think the idea of beginning the fight while holding a charge... Is it true you can't hold a charge while sleeping? If so, and I can't find it now, but I think you'd be fatigued the next day. The only reference I can find right now is "sleeping in armor" in the PHB. Sébastien Loisel |
| Jindl11-20-03, 02:33 PM | Originally posted by sloisel Is it true you can't hold a charge while sleeping? If so, and I can't find it now, but I think you'd be fatigued the next day. The only reference I can find right now is "sleeping in armor" in the PHB. It's probably irrelevant. This is the Arena after all. I think we just need to add "holding a charge" as an allowed prebuff. The very obvious drawback is that you can't cast any more spells until you discharge the charge... something that most spellcasters will not like. -Jindl |
| fluiddragon11-20-03, 02:42 PM | Originally posted by sloisel I'm glad I'm not the only one who would rather stick to standard items. Is it true you can't hold a charge while sleeping? If so, and I can't find it now, but I think you'd be fatigued the next day. The only reference I can find right now is "sleeping in armor" in the PHB. Sébastien Loisel Basically it is a DM call as written you have to "make a touch attack" which is different than touching something, so there is some sort of mental aspect to it. If you don't discharge it picking your nose why would tucking your self in at night set it off? The core rules are silent on the issue. 2 thing cause you to lose the charge: One is missing an attack roll. Two is casting another spell. According to the core rules nothing else does. We cannot use anything from 3.0 that may or may not be applicable. In 3.0 CL requirements for magic items were suggestions now they are actual requirements. So any arguments based on past issues in moot. I think the sage had something to say about this at one point but I don't remember what, it was a few years ago. As to the custom magic items I play a caster and I'm against them most cusotm items need a dm to adjucate it. I wouldn't care though if a caster made a hat of charisma instead of a cloak, or somethign like that. Thats no biggy, both take up a space on the character. Edit: Holding a Charge. Jindl is right about not casting other spells, I took a potion of mage armor for just this reason. Not casting other spells is a big drawback, especially for a single class caster. |
| Caterane11-20-03, 03:09 PM | @Tellish: Tactics sent |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-20-03, 03:15 PM | @ Jindl If you're talking about the initial touch to start a grapple i agree. And the Focus: Grapple does affect this roll as well for those who may not know. It is "grapple check" LIKE a melee attack. So focus: grapple applies here and NOT focus: unarmed. But it wouldn't affect the opposed roll to maintain the grapple, since it's, well, opposed. I've seen this done twice now....Grease DOES NOT AFFECT the opposed roll to dmg your opponent. Please, please, please, moderators, read the spell carefully. It's very important as we have multiple grapplers in the arena and two have been victimized by it already. It's only gives +10 to escape artist checks or on grapple checks made to resist a grapple or a pin. It does not confer +10 to all your checks involved in a grapple. Also, if i feel more comfortable just attacking i can just do it at -4 to my to hit roll. I don't need to make an opposed roll under the Dmg Your Opponent. Obviously if i have far superior grapplling skills, i would chose this option, but for those who do not, that's why the Attack Your Opponent exists. I'm finding grapple rules aren't being applied properly. With the increase in grappling and grapplers involved it's important we all brush up on them. Too long have i been silent. I just didn't want peeps thinking i was still brooding over the humilition of the past. Tellish **EDIT @ Cat....recieved |
| Jindl11-20-03, 03:30 PM | Re: Grapples - To be clear, grapple checks made to start a grapple and to damage an opponent are like attacks (ie. they take an attack action, damage an opponent, and are subject to critical success and failure). The defender in this type of grapple check does get the bonus to grease, while the attack would not (ie. grease is always a defensive bonus to a grapple.) To reiterate, a grapple check which deals unarmed strike damage if successful, is an attack and is subject to critical success and failure (at 20/x2, unless you go for Improved Crit.) Grease can only be used defensively in a grapple. Those people with pitiful grappling skill but good attack rolls (or who can make touch attacks with an ongoing spell like produce flame, chill touch, etc.) can indeed make a normal attack at a -4 penalty with a light weapon or natural weapon. This is important for druids to remember, as we often have very low str scores, wildshape into small forms (like eagles), and don't have the best bab in the world. But, when in eagle form, if Jindl has produce flame running, he'll likely wear you out if you try to grapple him...of course, he could just shape into a brown bear and grapple right back :) But, I digress. The main point is that as Tellish said, grappling has been occasionally done incorrectly. It is important to do it right, moderators please take a moment and re-read the rules on it before running any fights where grappling is called for. The same could be said for aerial combat rules (which Cat ran quite well in the Jindl vs Moon-moon fight), or mounted combat rules. One of the best things about moderating (for me at least), is how much I've learned about the new 3.5 rules. It's really helping in my RL campaign. -Jindl |
| SnarkHunter11-20-03, 04:09 PM | Just to clarify-yet again SRD Holding the Charge: If you don’t discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the discharge of the spell (hold the charge) indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren’t considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. (If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack.) If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge. Tactics recieved for spike Rito and Jagath, I'll try to get mine done soon. |
| Jindl11-20-03, 04:13 PM | Good job, Snark. So, be careful what you touch, if prebuffing with a touch charge... -Jindl |
| fluiddragon11-20-03, 04:15 PM | ^Well I guess that settles that issue, thanks snark! |
| Moherajikuyx11-20-03, 04:32 PM | Originally posted by barrel_master Also, does anyone have the link to the old character sheet 'template'? Thank you. Got it right here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=515622#post515622) :D Originally posted by Jindl To be clear, grapple checks made to start a grapple and to damage an opponent are like attacks (ie. they take an attack action, damage an opponent, and are subject to critical success and failure). [...] Those people with pitiful grappling skill but good attack rolls (or who can make touch attacks with an ongoing spell like produce flame, chill touch, etc.) can indeed make a normal attack at a -4 penalty with a light weapon or natural weapon. Another point to remember. Even the barbarian will not try a grapple against the monk if he's wise: because being unarmed, he causes AoO! Read this, snark? |
| Jindl11-20-03, 04:44 PM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Another point to remember. Even the barbarian will not try a grapple against the monk if he's wise: because being unarmed, he causes AoO! Read this, snark? Indeed, a barb would draw the AoO when making the touch attack to start the grapple. But grapple checks do not draw AoO's. So, if the monk starts the grapple, the barb never draws an AoO, got it? The real reason the barb doesn't like to grapple the monk is that the monk does real damage (and more base damage = 1d6 or more) while the barb does subdual damage (and less base damage = 1d3 for medium). But, if Tomah the Iceman survives a couple of levels, he'll be getting improved unarmed strike and improved grapple. Then his size + str + full bab could make him a better grappler than a monk. And when raging his str damage could be high enough to offset the lower base damage. Hrm, worth a try, I think. And it totally fits the caveman concept! -Jindl |
| sshuit11-20-03, 05:28 PM | Peter Patroclus pounds Pyre? Pyre's Pyromania pulpifies Peter? Tune in now truebelievers! Comments / Suggestions / Errors always welcome. |
| Moherajikuyx11-20-03, 05:41 PM | Originally posted by Jindl Indeed, a barb would draw the AoO when making the touch attack to start the grapple. But grapple checks do not draw AoO's. So, if the monk starts the grapple, the barb never draws an AoO, got it? -Jindl Jindl, you got it wrong... Who's got IUS and gets grappled, has an AoO chance. Equivalent to an unarmed strike means just that: all rules apply. If this wasn't true, we should not use flurry either. Damage Your Opponent: While grappling, you can deal damage to your opponent equivalent to an unarmed strike. Make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you deal nonlethal damage as normal for your unarmed strike (1d3 points for Medium attackers or 1d2 points for Small attackers, plus Strength modifiers). If you want to deal lethal damage, you take a –4 penalty on your grapple check. Exception: Monks deal more damage on an unarmed strike than other characters, and the damage is lethal. However, they can choose to deal their damage as nonlethal damage when grappling without taking the usual –4 penalty for changing lethal damage to nonlethal damage. |
| Moherajikuyx11-20-03, 06:10 PM | Also check the IUS description, in the Feats file. sshuit - great fight! Only thing, could you remove the carriage returns? They make the reading jumpy. |
| Magagumo11-20-03, 06:31 PM | Um.. damage equivelant to an unarmed strike does not make it an unarmed striek. Also, since you're grappled, Moh, you can't take AoO, that's why some monsters take -20 on rolls, so they retain their dexteroty and can hurt the other players. Of course, some will also just eat you ;) The best thing about a barbarian grappler is against opponents with companions and/or summons, as they don't lose their Dex to AC while grappling their main opponent. |
| Jindl11-20-03, 07:12 PM | @Mo - Grapple checks do not draw attacks of opportunity. They are not unarmed strikes. They just deal equivalent damage. You can flurry while grappling because a grapple is an attack action, and flurry allows you to make extra attack actions. Were it not for a specific rule in the grapple section, a ranger could use TWF while grappling, but this is specifically forbidden. Flurry, however, is not forbidden and is allowed while grappling. @Mag - You are not flatfooted while grappling, so yes the barb still loses his dex bonus against non-grappled opponents. The advantage the barb has is higher str (rage) and higher bab which equals a much better grapple modifier and more strength damage on successes. These things should counteract the extra base damage and extra flurry attack a monk has. @ sshuit - Good fight. But please re-read the character generation rules at the top of the gladiators page, especially the part about hps/level. -Jindl |
| sshuit11-20-03, 07:34 PM | I don't see anything about HP per level. I'm getting my interpretation from DMG Pg.198 Gaining fixed Hit points. Even numbered levels you get .5 lower than average. Odd numbered levels you get .5 higher than average. Where is this HP per level thing on the gladiators thread? sshuit |
| fluiddragon11-20-03, 07:39 PM | ^In the gladiator thread. You get 1/2 +1 HP per level (house rule) -fd |
| sshuit11-20-03, 08:21 PM | Can't find that ANYWHERE in the thread. sshuit Originally posted by fluiddragon ^In the gladiator thread. You get 1/2 +1 HP per level (house rule) -fd |
| SnarkHunter11-20-03, 10:00 PM | Hmm well I didn't see it in the gladiator rules, but it is (sort of ) on the first page of this discussion. Also, tactics sent for Bilo. Originally posted by JosephKell How are hit points being calculated? Like in the Rumble Arena with Maximized first and half+1 for each other? Cause if that is how then the other characters seem to have too many hit points. A 2nd level druid with 14 Constitution would have 8 + 5 (.5 * 8 + 1) + 4 (Con Modifier (2) * 2) = 17, not 19. Mo, I think perhaps you forgot your Constitution is just 14 and not 16, because there is a "3x2" in the hp calculation. And a 2nd level Cleric with a 14 Constitution would also have 17 hit points, not 15... And then again there is another Druid at level 2, but this time with a Constitution of 16, that has 19 hit ponts (which is right, by this method). |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-21-03, 01:01 AM | No body looses their dex bonus with hoever they are grappling, it's the people standing beside you that you gotta worry about. :) And as far as i know EVERYTHING loses it's dex bonus to opponents not involved in the grapple unless they take -20 their role. But i'm just quickly thinking about pc's and stuff here. There could be some funky monsters out there that do. Maybe like a gelatinous cube or something. lol Question: What do you get when you have two titanic mounted combatants whom deal lots of damage, and with 60hp+ they can take it too, split to heal back to full, then come back to go at it again? Answer: 28 rounds of pounding, and pounding, and pounding. Harvester vs Iron the Panza is complete. I now brace myself for the flood of critiques, critisism and questions, comments, and complaints alike. Both combatants were accutely aware of the benefits and dangers of their opponents mounts presented. Even to the point of eliminating them if possible. As those initial tactics broke down and didn't make it feesible from their tactics perspective and wasn't specified to take actions further, their worse nightmares came true. Someones mount won the day. All their rolls can be found here. http://krisinchico.brinkster.net/rollsearch.asp Use Ironpanza for his and Harvester for his. Tellish |
| sloisel11-21-03, 01:40 AM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket 28 rounds of pounding, and pounding, and pouding. That's what she said. |
| Moherajikuyx11-21-03, 04:57 AM | Seems you're right about the AoO guys... but now let me read the fight! |
| Moherajikuyx11-21-03, 06:29 AM | :eek: kudos Tellish! SPOILER ALERT: READ THE FIGHT BEFORE! It really deserves it. I SAID TO READ THE FIGHT! Bla bla... I said to read the fight go away! Well you were warned. Two really minor misunderstandings. The summon: the ape was to be used only if the Harvester had been near, to get advantage of the three attacks, while the way faster hippo was to be used instead of the ape in any other case, but that's my fault I could have been clearer. Couldn't the ape have attacked the horse instead? This is really minor though. The other was about the charges: to prevent charges I intended to stay covered by obstacles, but not near the obstacles, a rock in the middle would have prevented the charge as well. This didn't even present itself in the fight though so no problem. I have to say that when I saw Iron dropping the shield, I dropped my maw, but then it looks like it was the correct choice. And really Ironish! Good move! "F**k this stuff for ladies! I wanna a BIG weapon!" Also the choice of conc as last skill point was perfect, I was sure I did it: I don't know why I didn't. So, all in all, feeled compliments! |
| Prexx11-21-03, 07:36 AM | Originally posted by Magagumo Note on Empowered Bulls' Str: This is no longer a viable tactic, as the +4 is not a variable, so the empower aspect ignores it. I never noticed that change in 3.5. Used to be that it simply multiplied the effect by 1.5. I don't know what balancing reason led them to change it to variable numeric effects, but I stand corrected. The empowered bull's strength would not be a legal option. You would have to just stick with the +4, or pony up and create a full fledged belt of giant strength. Changing topics. I have a question about armor and it's effects on movement. Specificly, if a character has an enhancement bonus to his movement, does it take effect before or after the effects of armor. How fast would a halfling fighter with longstrider move in full plate? How fast would a human barbarian with expiditious retreat move in a breast plate? What about a dwarven barbarian with longstrider in fullplate? Or a heavy warhorse in full plate barding wearing horseshoes of speed? This brings up a small comment for Sshuit on the Pyre vs Peter fight. The dwarf in his heavy armor could only run at x3 movement, whereas Pyre could move at x4. He could have easily stayed in away from him by running one round, the leisurly double moving the next. All in all, very well run. |
| Caterane11-21-03, 07:39 AM | @TELLISH: WHAT??? I can`t believe my eyes!!! Why on earth didn`t the Harvester charge and ride-by Iron AS I MENTIONED IN MY TACTICS!!! THIS IS GOING TO GET REALLY RIDICULOUS GUYS!!! Here an excerpt: In this case Iron`s mount isn`t silenced and very much alive. This is obviously my least favorite outcome. Stay out of reach while buffing in this order: 1) Sanctuary 2) Bears endurance 3) Bulls strength 4) Shield of faith 5) Magic vestment 6) Divine favor If Iron comes too close, make a run while casting Cause fear on Rona. Then continue to buff. Now cast 2 Dispel magics on Iron (if the first dispel takes down everything, skip the second) and then charge + ride-by. WHAT SHOULD I DO? Paint it red? Call you on the phone? Why spending 3 hours thinking about and writing tactics when they are ignored anyway? Next time I`ll just skip this. Futile. Yeah, thanks for leaving out three of my major feats, throwing away the lance and going toe-to-toe with the greatsword specialist while wielding a not even masterwork scimitar. Harvester would`ve won that fight with ride-by`s. And I am not talking about my bad luck this time (2 failed silences, 2 almost useless Dispel magics, died by a critical) Perhaps you should`ve put less emphasize on my sheet and more on my tactics. Ok, have a fight to run Cat |
| Moherajikuyx11-21-03, 07:43 AM | sshuit - I was not aware of that rule! I think we shall use it, instead of the house rule we're actually using. Yes, we'll use it from next week, it shall be really a minor change, -1 or 2 hps each character. The 1/2HD +1 is a leftover from FR... Which makes me feel bad now that it has been noticed ;) Originally posted by Prexx I never noticed that change in 3.5. Used to be that it simply multiplied the effect by 1.5. I don't know what balancing reason led them to change it to variable numeric effects, but I stand corrected. The empowered bull's strength would not be a legal option. You would have to just stick with the +4, or pony up and create a full fledged belt of giant strength. I believe they feared the multiple empowered buffs to str, cos and dex, that made it possible to fight better than a barbarian to mages, especially the prestige class with improved metamagic: +1 lvl to empower instead of +2. Was it the enchantress? |
| Moherajikuyx11-21-03, 07:46 AM | Originally posted by Caterane [BWHAT??? I can`t believe my eyes!!![/B] :( Come on Cat... Did you read my tactics? Ride by and spirited work only with charges, and preventing charges is not that hard when mounted: going behind an obstacle is enough. I wonder if a rock would not be enough, in case the horse jumps... But then, the pillar would be enough. |
| Caterane11-21-03, 07:49 AM | @Mo: No, your tactics weren`t posted. And you couldn`t ve stayed hidden all day. Perhaps a ready action to charge... there are possibilities. Knellstriker has +22 on jump due to speed. No problem jumping over a rock and this doesn`t impede my movement so it doesn`t prevent a charge. Edit: Oh, not that you get me wrong. I have no problem with losing a fight. Even such things like CDG against a non-helpless character like Jindl did in the Harvester vs Bruno fight don`t annoy me the way an ignored tactic does. If I lose due to bad tactic as it was in the Ebelin vs Jindl fight, my fault, but at least it was MY fault. Edit2: And my skill points are correct since the first level was fighter where ride is not a cross class skill |
| Prexx11-21-03, 07:59 AM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx I believe they feared the multiple empowered buffs to str, cos and dex, that made it possible to fight better than a barbarian to mages, especially the prestige class with improved metamagic: +1 lvl to empower instead of +2. Was it the enchantress? The class you are refering to is the Incantrix, a prestige class focused around metamagics. The ultimate ability of the class, granted at level 10 is to lower the level modifier of all metamagics by 1 (thus empower becomes +1, maximize +2, etc...). I think that the abusive nature of the empower feat came from applying it multiple times to the same spell, not from just one application. This has been addressed already: "You can't apply the same metamagic feat more than once to a single spell (for instance, you can't cast a twice-empowered magic missile to get +100% damage)." 3.5 PH pg 88 I don't really see how restricing empower to only variable effects makes it any more balanced, considering the previously mentioned rule. Anyways, just my two cents. [edit typo] |
| Moherajikuyx11-21-03, 08:02 AM | Well, the first sentence in the tactics was something like "No matter what, don't be charged during this fight!" If the horse might jump the obstacle, it may never jump the pillar. As I said, preventing the charge is so easy, that Tellish wisely decided to make both not charge. I didn't even consider it. Harvester's only chance for charging was to kill Rona. Else, Iron would have gone behind pillars forever. About the skill points, cleric ranks to ride still cost 2/1. |
| Caterane11-21-03, 08:23 AM | Well Mo, in that case we would`ve stayed there all night long. If Iron is to choose his fighting ground (melee) then the Harvester may do likewise (charge). Why did the Harvester give up his advantage and succumb to melee (where you excell) and not vice-versa? Why did Tellish not decide to let Iron give up his tactic? Because the one who does this, loses the fight. And Tellish decided. |
| Galamdring11-21-03, 09:14 AM | To SnarkHunter: I sent Mara's tactics to you a few moments ago... Please confirm when you receive them... Thanks |
| fluiddragon11-21-03, 09:47 AM | Hey all I need some help with mounted combat, I have a few questions. Note this willgive away some tactics so as of now, I am not accpeting any revisions of tactics for Hurtz or Paul. Question 1. .123 1Axx 2xRB 3xxx A is on horse and B is hiding behind the rock. Can A charge B with his his lance? Even though B is not right in front of him but off to the side as he passes? Or would the rock prevent the charge all together? If the rock prevents the charge, can the rider swipe at him with a longsword as he rides by? If he does this is it considered a charge? Question 2: .123 1xAx 2xRB 3xxx In this figure does either character get cover from the rock? I would say no, as there is a straight line. Am I right? Question 3: If the rider is performing a ride by charge can the mount attack as it goes by as well? Thanks for any help. I have not run a mounted combat before where it mattered and I want to do this one right. -fd edit note: on question 1 A is coming from that direction, not starting there. I just didn't want to make a lage map. |
| Moherajikuyx11-21-03, 10:08 AM | Cat I think you shall consider it better. I wrote a lot already then I deleted it: I may not convince you of course, but if you look at the numbers, the H was at advantage in melee, even without charging, while I with the bows, so waiting forever would have helped Iron more than H. The thing that really made the difference was the inflict spell prepared, on my opinion. |
| Moherajikuyx11-21-03, 10:15 AM | Fluid- the pillar prevents the charge, ride by attack may be used only with a charge. The rocks might be jumped by the horses. This would not slow the charge, so the charge would be possible. If the horse doesn't roll high enough, though, the consequences may vary from ridiculous to tragical :) If the target is exactly behind a rock, as looks to be the case in your figure 1, the rider may charge and get advantage of its reach, fighting with a cover penalty, but not do a ride by. The ride by attack feat regards the rider, it says nothing about the mount, so I'd say that the mount needs Spring Attack for that. |
| barrel_master11-21-03, 10:18 AM | ^ hummm 1. No, 'a' can not charge 'b'. SRD - if any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge. (Helpless creatures don’t stop a charge.) 2. Also from the SRD... 'To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target’s square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to AC). When making a melee attack against an adjacent target, your target has cover if any line from your square to the target’s square goes through a wall (including a low wall). When making a melee attack against a target that isn’t adjacent to you (such as with a reach weapon), use the rules for determining cover from ranged attacks.' So the answer is sometims... with a reach or ranged weapon, no, B does not have cover... with a normal 5 foot melee weapon, yes. 3. I belive the horse can preform an attack in a charge... I can't see anything to say that a horse can't make an attack. Although, I have to admit, I've never seen it happen either. |
| Prexx11-21-03, 10:32 AM | This is in response to fluiddragon's post about charging and cover. Here is my understanding of the rules. I will prefaces my answers with these quotes from the PH. Regarding Charging: You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). Here is what it means to have a clear path. First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. (If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can't charge.) Second, if any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement (such as a wall), slows movement (such as difficult terrain), or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge. (Helpless creatures don't stop a charge.) If you don't have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can't charge that opponent. 3.5 PH pg. 154-155 Regarding Cover: To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target's square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupided by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to ac). When making a melee attack against an adjacent target, your target has cover if any line from your square to the target's square goes through a wall (including a low wall). When making a melee attack against a target that isn't adjacent to you (such as with a rach weapon), use the rules for tetermining cover from ranged attacks. 3.5 PH pg. 150-151 So in reply to your questions. Question 1: No, he cannot charge with the lance. He must move at 10 feet before he attacks into the square closest to the opponent (in this case that square would be 2,2, which is occupied by the rock). If A were two squares west of his current postion (-1,1), and he had a reach weapon, he would be able to charge, but B would get a +4 cover bonus to AC. He can charge because a line from his starting square to his ending square (not the square of the target, the square he ends his movement in) does not pass through any obstructions Question 2: Yes, both characters recieve cover bonus from the rock. If you draw a line from the lower left corner of A to the lower left corner of B, it passes through cover. So they both get cover. There is an excellent illustration on page 151 of the PH to illustrate this. Question 3: No. In order to perform a ride-by attack, you must be performing a charge action. And we have already determined that he cannot initate a charge action under the current circumstances. Now, a few clarifications. I think these are especially important, as my one and only character utilizes cover quite often during his matches. .123 1xAx 2xxx 3xRB If player A were to fire a bow at player B, he would be able to do so, but player B would get a +4 cover bonus to his AC. Because no matter which corner of his character player A chooses, it must pass through the border of an object that provides cover. On the other hand, player B can fire a bow freely at player A, and player A will not recieve the cover bonus. He can do so because a line drawn from the upper left or upper right corner of his character can pass to every corner of player A without passing through a object or border of an object that provides cover. I hope this helps to clear things up. [edit]Reworded and clarified a few sections |
| Jindl11-21-03, 10:33 AM | @ Fluid - Answer 1 - If "A" were charging distance away (at least 10 feet I think?) then yes he could charge using a reach weapon to pass over the rock, but his target gets a +4 AC from cover. The key is the reach weapon, as this allows the charger to stop on the other side of the cover and attack 10' to hit his opponent. This happened in a fight long ago, between Rito and Moon-moon (I ran the fight.) Note: If "A" is mounted, then his square is the same as the mount (10 x 10). Answer 2 - You are correct. Both have cover. If a corner of your square can draw an interrupted line to a corner or your opponents square, then there is cover. The bottom left corner of "A" and the bottom left corner of "B" can do this, so both have cover. Answer 3 - Only if the mount has spring attack (or in the case of flying mounts, flyby attack). In other words, the mount would need to have the ability to attack in the middle of its move. Hope this helps! *************************** RE: Iron vs Harvester First - Good work, Tellish. I know this was a pretty tough fight to run. @Cat - You are correct that the Harvester could have evaded Iron for countless hours. Of course, then this would have become an archery contest (so you still don't get to fight on your terms.) As for readying an action to charge... you can only ready standard actions (Charging is a full-round action). Also, Mo has the right of it about the skill points. The max rank is char level +3, but the points are still 1/2 rank for cleric levels. Now, having disagreeed with you on a couple of things, there are some more things I agree with you completely about: You are correct that Knell could "easily" jump a rock, but I wouldn't expect a moderator to think of that, so maybe put it in your tactics. Also, charging only takes 10 feet of movement, so with greater speed and equal manueverability, Harvester should have been able to get within the necessary distance to charge (leaping over any rocks in the way, really there aren't that many columns). Since the arena is static, I would suggest adding the "how to charge properly" section to your tactics. Yes, a moderator might be able to figure it out, but no one knows your character as well as you do. I really think you would have won the fight if your rolls had gone better, or if you had put more instructions on how to charge in your tactics. Tellish is one of the more intelligent and better mod's but I wouldn't expect him to come up with the idea of jumping obstacles and charging from 10 feet. And, are you ever going to forget and forgive about that mistaken CDG ?? ;) @Mo - Preventing a charge is not easy. If Cat had included info about jumping over rocks and charging from minimun distance in his tactics, then he would almost certainly had gotten off some charges. ****************************** Re: HP's - Mo, I like the current system and see no reason to change it. The DMG average hp system is only one of the many options for setting hps, none of these options are more "core" than the others. Half +1 is a good system, one we should keep. ****************************** @ Prexx - AFAIK, armor and encumbrance affect the base racial speed of the creature (including class bonuses, if any). Enhancement bonuses and such to speed come after the armor is factored in. (Race+class)*armor + magic = speed. "How fast would a halfling fighter with longstrider move in full plate?" 15 +10 = 25 feet. "How fast would a human barbarian with expiditious retreat move in a breast plate?" 30 +30 = 60 feet. "What about a dwarven barbarian with longstrider in fullplate?" 30 +10 = 40 feet. "Or a heavy warhorse in full plate barding wearing horseshoes of speed?" 40 +30 = 70 feet. -Jindl |
| Jindl11-21-03, 10:33 AM | By the time I posted my comments, several others had already replied. I have modified my above post based on their replies. :) -Jindl EDIT: And for all you Cover fans, I have 3 words for you: Improved Precise Shot. |
| Prexx11-21-03, 10:45 AM | @Jindl - Thank you for clearing up that thing about movement for me. Could you please reference where you found the rules regarding movement at so I can read over them? And I am not too worried about people with improved precise shot. I imagine they will be few and far between. The requirements on it are very steep. Most characters just have archery as a backup, not as their mainstay, and would not be willing to deticate so many feats to obtain it. |
| fluiddragon11-21-03, 11:03 AM | Thanks for the clarifications. I'm not going to assume the horse would jump the rock it was not in the tactics, and if it failed then that could end the fight right there. In fig 1 A will be charging B with the lance but B gets a +4 cover bonus. In fig 2 both will have a +4 cover bonus. And in ride by attacks the horse will not ba able to charge. Sorry for the delay in posting the fight guys But I want to make sure I'm doing it right. Both are cool characters and I don't want to short change either of them with poor understanding of the rules. I know I said I'd post it yesterday but I got to running in and wasn't sure of a few things. Also both players gave me some wiggle room to modify the tactics if theirs were not working. If I do so I will take each characters intelligence and personality into play. I was 3/4's done with the fight initially but I made some errors so I will redo the parts that I got wrong. Look for the fight sometime saturday. +_+_+_+_+_+_+ About the hit points rule, I think the way we are doing it now is fine. It will add more work as a mod to go back and recalculate them to make sure each character did them right, plus if we go an even drop the .5 and odd add the .5 it will impact what order some multiclass chracters will take what levels. The system we have now is working fine and is easier and quicker to use. Since everybody is using it and we don't have monsters then we are all equal and there is no reason to change. -fd thanks for the help guys. |
| Jindl11-21-03, 11:06 AM | @ Prexx - In the SRD (under movement, carrying capacity, etc.) it lists "Armor and Encumbrance for other base speeds." The key words are base speeds. I interpret base speed as things that are always on and non-magical. So that would be racial speed and class speed improvements (the barbarian fast movement description says it is added before calculating armor). Enhancement bonuses to speed, whether from a spell or magic item, don't play a part of base speed. And so I add them on after the armor adjustment. This is my interpretation, as they never clearly define "base speed". -Jindl |
| Caterane11-21-03, 11:08 AM | @Jindl: As you might remember: I didn`t say anything about the CDG back when that had happened. I just posted this face: :uh-huh: as an answer. So I wasn`t ever really upset about it. Don´t worry. I know that it is easy to let a rule slip, happens, but I put really much time in my tactics including the clear arrangement to easily access vital information. Mo did say that he wanted to avoid charging at all costs. I said "use ride-by". So have I now to mention what I am NOT going to do? "I am NOT going into melee against a raging barbarian. I am not casting owls wisdom on Iron. I am not feeding my scrolls to Knell" But then I HAVE it written - so to speak. Here`s the quote: If he readies and action, just stay out of reach and buff on!! Only charge when he doesn`t ready an action! That means I want to make sure I am not going into melee. I just covered the "ready an action" only because I didn`t even think of the Harvester fighting with his scimitar in melee. So I also said "NO MELEE" And as Jindl pointed out there ARE possibilities to charge; especially considering my superior speed. A single charge would`ve settled the fight - even with a melee afterwards. Originally posted by Moherajikuyx The thing that really made the difference was the inflict spell prepared, on my opinion. One more reason not to go into melee. If I had known that the Harvester got confused from round 10 on I would`ve memorized completely different spells, inflict wounds, for example. |
| Moherajikuyx11-21-03, 11:15 AM | Originally posted by fluiddragon About the hit points rule, I think the way we are doing it now is fine. It will add more work as a mod to go back and recalculate them to make sure each character did them right, plus if we go an even drop the .5 and odd add the .5 it will impact what order some multiclass chracters will take what levels. The system we have now is working fine and is easier and quicker to use. Since everybody is using it and we don't have monsters then we are all equal and there is no reason to change. It should be character level not class level, not that hard, and no multiclass problems. The difference would be that everyone has -n+1/2 hps, where n=levels, truncated. Not that hard to calculate :) There is a difference: low hd characters have an advantage as we're doing now. So, this is a rule from next week. I'm not going to make a poll for something so minor... If I manage to find the rule in the SRD -_-' Anyone knows where it is? |
| Moherajikuyx11-21-03, 11:21 AM | Cat, there are ways to posticipate a charge forever when one is mounted. Simply keep a pillar in the middle: no charge. |
| Caterane11-21-03, 11:22 AM | I referred to p.155 "blabla if you have a standard action only, you can still charge" So if I am restricted to standard actions only I have actually more options available? A zombie rider may ready a charge while a paladin may not? What if I cast slow on myself? |
| Jindl11-21-03, 11:23 AM | @Mo - that "average hp" suggestion is only in the DMG. It is not in the SRD. Simply put the current way is easier. All characters will be on equal footing either way, but the new way requires more math (and thus is more error prone.) And the DMG lists several methods of determing hps... -Jindl @Mo (again) - Its hard to keep a pillar in the middle, when your foe is faster than you with the same manueverability, and he can charge from only 10 feet away. Also, since both are riding horses, the pillar doesn't block a charge if you are right next to it (just like he can attack over the rocks, he can attack beside the pillar. He has a 10x10 space, you have a 10x10 space, and the pillar is 5x5.) @Cat - You just made me think of something... When attacking in melee while mounted, you can't make a full attack if the mount moves more than 5'. Therefore anytime the mount "charges" you are making a single standard action. The rules say that the rider shares the -2 ac the mount gets for charging. It states this becuase the rider is only making a standard action attack and would not normally have a -2 to ac. So, could the Harvester ready to attack when within range? Yes. Could knellstriker ready to move the necessary distance (10 feet) to intiate the ride by attack? Yes. So I think it may be possible to ready a mounted charge, because it is different than a regular charge. -Jindl EDIT: I have just one last thing to add - just a reminder really. This is the first mounted vs mounted combat we've really seen. This is the first time to highly manueverable foes tried to not let the other charge. Please don't get to upset about how it went. This is all about learning 3.5 rules and how to optimize. And that includes mod's learning to understand all the nuances of rules, and players learning to modify tactics and such to fight most effectively. We're supposed to have fun too, remember? |
| Caterane11-21-03, 11:33 AM | @Mo: Perhaps I shouldn`t take this all too seriously but then, I am glad I do care that much because I put a lot of my freetime in this arena and I am happy to be here. It is just that more often than not something goes completely not according to plan. And then there`s my bad luck. The way the fight went was my 4th and least favorite option because everything else failed. I think a silence on Rona and the fight would`ve been over. She has +2 Will only and saved both. You resisted 2 Dispels. That`s making me crazy because that`s no exception (you might remember my Harvester of Misfortune/Ebelin the Fumbler post). You can be sure if you`ve cast silence on the boosted Harvester I would`ve rolled a nat 1 or something. |
| Magagumo11-21-03, 11:38 AM | Hmm, so you lose your dex mod to everyone else when you're grappling? Ok, I thought it said you are considered falt-footed.. which made barbarian grapplers very fierce ^_~ Hmm.. Improved Precise Shot.... Zorander likes that feat :-D. Hmm, now would that cancel effects of blur and displacement I wonder? Since only total concealment retains its miss chance with that feat, and Displacement is not quite total concealment (occording to spell description) that would be very nice :). Developing Bruno's tactics, should have them out by this afternoon (stupid paladins and their immunities to fear ;)) |
| thavirol11-21-03, 12:03 PM | Yesterday I posted a character. Here is the link http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?threadid=73069&perpage=30&pagenumber=3 My question is, what is the next step toward setting him up to fight? Please let me know. |
| MotherBast11-21-03, 12:06 PM | Jindl.... On Candy's character sheet there is an error on my equipment section. I upgraded her bow and armor to masterwork, and added 150 and 300 gold to the prices, when I should have added 300 and 150, so while my total gold is correct, the prices on the bow and armor are off. I just noticed it, and can't edit or I'll loose. I just sent ya my tactics, so as your looking over my sheet keep that in mind. On another note, guess I'll run my fight this week today. |
| Jindl11-21-03, 12:14 PM | Originally posted by thavirol Yesterday I posted a character. Here is the link http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?threadid=73069&perpage=30&pagenumber=3 My question is, what is the next step toward setting him up to fight? Please let me know. Welcome to the Arena. To set up for a fight, merely post here that your character is ready, and make sure he complies with the arena rules for builds. --- looking over your character --- Half-orc barb/cleric. Cool. See if he's better than the human version (Iron the Panza). This'll offer a good comparison. But, a couple of things need to be changed. 1. It's core 3.5 only, so nothing that is not in the SRD (that means no FR domains, sorry.) 2. Your server double posted the character. Please edit one of the posts out (to a " ") or something, to save us some scrolling. 3. Any changes (and explanations of changes - like your battleaxe post) can be edited into the character build post. Please do not post more than once for each character on the builds thread. All discussion is here on this thread. 4. On the first page of the "Builds" thread, there is a sample character sheet. All new characters are supposed to be using a very similar version of this standard sheet (to help the moderators when we need to find that crucial stat/bit of info when running the fights.) Please make these changes and we'll get you paired up to fight in the next round (which is next Wed.) -Jindl EDIT: Understood MotherBast. Tactics sent to barrel_master for the Iceman (via PM). @Cat and @Mag - I'm working on tactics for the Elder and Jindl, they'll be sent soon. |
| fluiddragon11-21-03, 12:18 PM | Originally posted by thavirol Yesterday I posted a character. Here is the link http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?threadid=73069&perpage=30&pagenumber=3 My question is, what is the next step toward setting him up to fight? Please let me know. Only core books are allowed no FR. Only 1 post for 1 character if you need to make changes edit the original post. Also you have quite a few blank lines in there too much scrolling. You have to format the sheet to match the standard sheet found at the beginning of the gladiator forum. Once your character is ready mark it ready at the top of the sheet, then post here that the character is ready. If the character is legal it will be addd to the roster. |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-21-03, 12:21 PM | K, i've read the posts, now may i speak in my defense. You cannot jump to charge. There is a feat that does that and you can't do it normally. And please don't argue about the fact that jump says you can jump as part of your move action, i'm aware of that. I've read, re-read, and re-read again, charging for any hint of getting around the obstacles. There wasnt'. YOU CANNOT JUMP AN OBSTACLE in a charge. You must have a clear path and nothing can hinder your movement (such difficult terrain, or OBSTACLES). Here's why no charges took place. I was not about to do a 234543333098 round fight as Iron moved behind two obstacles or 10' rocks while Harvester readied or tried to maneouver around for a ride-by. Iron also specified about readied actions, but i denied him as well. And that includes counter-charge, thus denying Harvester's charge. So please, please, no more talk about I DIDN'T CHARGE HIM....k? no charges were happening, including readied charges or readied counter-charges because i then have to arbirtrarily decide who i screw over with the first one. So to make it fair, i did what i did. MO lost his counters and readies, and Harvester lost ride-by. @MO, ride-by DOES affect the mount as well. The mount is not subject to AoO from the ride-by. As far as the Ape goes, you weren't very clear, so instead of guessing, or reading your mind, i followed them in order. Harvester obviously being your initial target for the summons, that's who Ape attacks. You never had an opportunity for a standard action to make a handle animal check to try to communicate with him to give him another target before the spell expired. He simply can only do the best he can with his current target. And believe me, i thought about it after he failed his will save on the sanctuary, but opportunity never opened up. @Jindl If you are able to take only stardard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge.... I read that as you can still ready an action to charge. But all that doesn't matter. The fight would go on forever and ever and ever with both combatants sitting at the either end of the field staring at each other. @Cat. No, your skills are still wrong. You can only put 4 points in Ride Skill as a first lvl fighter. That's the level i assumed was your first lvl anyhow. Both characters had to give up something to make this fight happen, otherwise i'd still be here 36hrs later doing the fight, and i don't think that's fair for any moderator to do. You'll note Iron didn't want to rage until later, and/or cast inflict wound BEFORE raging. None of that happened. This wasn't poor moderating, or poor following up with tactics. It was a matter of circumstances within the fight. I wasn't about to make the fight last eighteen gazzillion rounds, and for the fight to happen something had to crack, so to be fair, both lost a little. ALSO, Harvester had a 30% better chance of winning in melee vs Iron. (this includes the horse's attacks as well) Harvester really got bummed by bad rolls. Well, both did, but Harvester more than anyone got the raw deal. Both dispels were near-futile, and both silences failed. All my rolls are posted for everyone to see, so there's no dispute as to the validity of them. I thought about having the horses pound on each other, but I KNEW i'd get flack for that for making stuff up, regardless of who won thus decided against it. After Iron's last hit, Harvester was gonna just run away, and heal back to full again. Whereas, Iron could no longer heal for the remainder of the fight. The lucky critical at the last second, and in the same round as Iron finally hitting is what did it. Not bad moderating, not bad tactics useage. I don't know ANYONE in this forum that would run a million round fight so at least give me some credit for that. My own 'personal' thoughts, and this isn't a slight to MO and Iron's build, but i really thought Harvester had the better tactics and superior combat abilities (given the circumstances at the time). Given the two sets of tactics, knowing no charges were gonna take place even, i still thought Harvester had it in the bag. Until the final critical that is. You had 24 hit points left, and Iron and Rona LUCKILY did 27 in one round. I have absolutely NO CONTROL over that. You still had healing left, you still had scrolls of clw, you heal back to full, while Iron only weakens. I also thought about using a dispel scroll when Harvest broke away to heal the first time. But again, i run into the same problem of doing stuff of my own initiative, that i'd get flack for either way, and thus cleared it from my brain. I've gotten flack for using unspecified resources before EVEN BY THE VICTOR of all things, so no more repeating those mistakes. And please, don't get me started on being screwed by bad tactics useage and poor moderating. Besides, i'm sure almost everyone here has been burnt at LEAST once by that. And i HONESTLY, and this is truely honestly, i'm not just saying this because it's me, but i really don't think i did anything wrong as far as following each players tactics. The fight was run to the BEST of the abilities of both combatants. Sorry you think you got the shaft. Tellish Notes: As for the x3 run in heavy armor rule, i believe i've moderated one in the past like that. Also Cronk was only running at x3 as well if anyone read. Hp debate. I'm in favor of the half+1. It's very core'ish and easily stands to scrutiny when looking at other players sheets. |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-21-03, 12:31 PM | Originally posted by Jindl @Mo (again) - Its hard to keep a pillar in the middle, when your foe is faster than you with the same manueverability, and he can charge from only 10 feet away. Also, since both are riding horses, the pillar doesn't block a charge if you are right next to it (just like he can attack over the rocks, he can attack beside the pillar. He has a 10x10 space, you have a 10x10 space, and the pillar is 5x5.) which is why in the fight you see the combatants either having two points between them or being 10' away from the cover if its just one. Yes. So I think it may be possible to ready a mounted charge, because it is different than a regular charge. Yup, as you'll see in my post that was made before reading this. Tellish |
| Moherajikuyx11-21-03, 12:38 PM | *ops, already done* ToK, I think you quite set the matter, you did a great work. And, moreover, perepepèéèéèé... (hilarious trumpet) The embarassing Octavian Cesar vs. Tomar Vilir fight is posted! |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-21-03, 12:40 PM | Originally posted by Caterane @Mo: Perhaps I shouldn`t take this all too seriously but then, I am glad I do care that much because I put a lot of my freetime in this arena and I am happy to be here. It is just that more often than not something goes completely not according to plan. And then there`s my bad luck. The way the fight went was my 4th and least favorite option because everything else failed. I think a silence on Rona and the fight would`ve been over. She has +2 Will only and saved both. You resisted 2 Dispels. That`s making me crazy because that`s no exception (you might remember my Harvester of Misfortune/Ebelin the Fumbler post). You can be sure if you`ve cast silence on the boosted Harvester I would`ve rolled a nat 1 or something. I just wanna say Cat, that you didn't lose because i mis-played your tactics. I know you think i may have, but i'm hoping you see things my way that charging was not gonna be possible without screwing someone over. The rolls killed you, not me. I agree. If any of the silences make it through, it would have been SO over because Iron doesn't have spellcraft, and would have NO idea what was silenced. I would have been forced to leave him mounted (which i'm sure i'd get TONS of flack for), but that's the way it would have had to have been. Tellish |
| Caterane11-21-03, 12:49 PM | @Tellish: The whole thing is about not letting the Harvester charge. 30% you say? With ride-by attacks the odds where at 1000% in my favor. THAT`S what I am upset about. Prior to combat you said that you consider both riders being in all 4 squares and that we should include this in our tactics. In my ears that sounds like 10x10ft space thus no cover thus always an opportunity to charge; with lance I have even better reach. So ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEM TO CHARGE!!! But no, you decided charging isn`t possible. A few bad rolls *surprise surprise* and *bang* I lost again a fight which I should`ve won when I look at both tactics, no matter the rolls. What would you say if I decide that hiding is not possible for Kelek? Hey, it`s too illuminated. The covers are not good enough. Anything. So let`shoot arrows at your foe and HEY you have a 30% better chance of hitting the raging orc so what? Well well, another fight lost due to meta-circumstances. I`ll get used to it. Sorry you think you got the shaft. Strangely every time an error occurs I`ll get the short end of it |
| Moherajikuyx11-21-03, 12:50 PM | :eek: I'm not a flakker! ...Am I? :embarrass :D *edit* and...what's flak?? |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-21-03, 01:06 PM | Originally posted by Caterane @Tellish: The whole thing is about not letting the Harvester charge. 30% you say? With ride-by attacks the odds where at 1000% in my favor. THAT`S what I am upset about. Prior to combat you said that you consider both riders being in all 4 squares and that we should include this in our tactics. In my ears that sounds like 10x10ft space thus no cover thus always an opportunity to charge; with lance I have even better reach. So ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEM TO CHARGE!!! But no, you decided charging isn`t possible. A few bad rolls *surprise surprise* and *bang* I lost again a fight which I should`ve won when I look at both tactics, no matter the rolls. What would you say if I decide that hiding is not possible for Kelek? Hey, it`s too illuminated. The covers are not good enough. Anything. So let`shoot arrows at your foe and HEY you have a 30% better chance of hitting the raging orc so what? Well well, another fight lost due to meta-circumstances. I`ll get used to it. Strangely every time an error occurs I`ll get the short end of it You need to draw a straight line from the center of his piece to the center of your piece, if that line crosses an obstacle you can't charge. I guess i can't make myself any clearer, so you can keep feeling sour. It wasn't meta-circumstances, it was game-mechanics. you can't CHOSE to charge at an angle around the pillar so that your lance is in reach of him. Nothing's gonna change your mind, so i'm done talking about this subject. Ya'll can keep arguing it if you wish. It's done, and i didn't do anything wrong mechanically, and tactically given the situation. If you want someone to mode infinite fights that last so many rounds that i have to start rolling fatigue checks for each combatant for staying up so long, and the loser is the first person to fail their con check, then find another mod. Can, i know this is gonna elicite more negative vibes, but you've also won to an error. {Harvetser vs Buttmunch} We all won or lost at some point due to errors. Tellish |
| Magagumo11-21-03, 02:02 PM | What was the error in Harvester vs. Buttmunch? ;) Because the mount was not going to get hit with those flame attacks, hitting covers a variant rule ^_~ |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-21-03, 02:12 PM | Originally posted by Magagumo What was the error in Harvester vs. Buttmunch? ;) Because the mount was not going to get hit with those flame attacks, hitting covers a variant rule ^_~ ....and so it is. :( ok, I feel stupid now. Tellish |
| thavirol11-21-03, 03:31 PM | d |
| thavirol11-21-03, 03:32 PM | 1. It's core 3.5 only, so nothing that is not in the SRD (that means no FR domains, sorry.) 4. On the first page of the "Builds" thread, there is a sample character sheet. All new characters are supposed to be using a very similar version of this standard sheet (to help the moderators when we need to find that crucial stat/bit of info when running the fights.) Please make these changes and we'll get you paired up to fight in the next round (which is next Wed.) -Jindl Hey Jindl I fixed up the double post. Now I know questions are posted here. I got two of them. First, SRD?, does that mean basically that I can use feats that are in the Players Handbook and that's it? Next, what did I do wrong in posting my character? I thought I followed the guidelines correctly. Later... ] |
| Jindl11-21-03, 03:42 PM | Originally posted by thavirol Hey Jindl I fixed up the double post. Now I know questions are posted here. I got two of them. First, SRD?, does that mean basically that I can use feats that are in the Players Handbook and that's it? Next, what did I do wrong in posting my character? I thought I followed the guidelines correctly. Later... ] Thanks for fixing the double post, etc. The SRD stands for Standard Reference Document. It can be found on the WotC homepage. Also, I think sloisel has a link to it in his signature. The SRD is the 3.5 PHB, DMG, and MM. No other sources (except for errata of the above.) You character is fine, just please format your character sheet to look like the standard sheet (which can be found as part of the very first post on the gladiators thread). You should have plenty of time to edit your character before pairings come out Wed morning. After pairings are announced, you are not allowed to edit your character until your fight is done. Break this rule at your own risk!! Welcome, again. -Jindl |
| Moherajikuyx11-21-03, 03:45 PM | Originally posted by Jindl After pairings are announced, you are not allowed to edit your character until your fight is done. Break this rule at your own risk!! "Deja-vu.." "What did you say?" "Deja-vu. Why?" ;) *edit* thavirol - Warm welcomes! If it looks like we're a bunch of grudgy dwarves mumbling... That's only coz it's true!! :D |
| fluiddragon11-21-03, 03:55 PM | Originally posted by thavirol 1. It's core 3.5 only, so nothing that is not in the SRD (that means no FR domains, sorry.) 4. On the first page of the "Builds" thread, there is a sample character sheet. All new characters are supposed to be using a very similar version of this standard sheet (to help the moderators when we need to find that crucial stat/bit of info when running the fights.) Please make these changes and we'll get you paired up to fight in the next round (which is next Wed.) -Jindl Hey Jindl I fixed up the double post. Now I know questions are posted here. I got two of them. First, SRD?, does that mean basically that I can use feats that are in the Players Handbook and that's it? Next, what did I do wrong in posting my character? I thought I followed the guidelines correctly. Later... ] PHB feats/domains/spells/ only. In posting the character you can change fonts, and colors but all info has to be in the proper spot. There were quite a few carriage returns in your character sheet, probably due to copy&paste. The easier your sheet is to read for a mod to read the better you will do. If they have to hunt for info or scroll a tonn it is only going to hurt you in the long run. Thats why we are moving to a standard sheet. If you want to see a slightly modified standard char sheet in action you can look at Gage (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1516978#post1516978) This follows the proper placement for information I just made certain aspects easier to read for a mod. -fd edit: you can also find a number of SRD versions in the link on my sig. These all containt the same info just hyper linked and organized better than the wizards one. And oh, yeah welcome to the boards! |
| thavirol11-21-03, 04:10 PM | A quick question: Can I wait until I know who I will be fighting before I select my spells or do I have to do that before? |
| sloisel11-21-03, 04:11 PM | Originally posted by fluiddragon PHB feats/domains/spells/ only. And DMG and MM as well. |
| Jindl11-21-03, 04:12 PM | {jumping in before Mo gets to answer} Yes, spells memorized are part of the tactics that you email to your moderator. -Jindl |
| Market_Share11-21-03, 04:28 PM | I had many of the same questions, but it seems most have been answered. I guess since i'm so new i'd be outa line commenting on the fight that ppl are up in arms about. And not having moderated anything here, i think i'm a little gun-shy now so to speak. I consider myself extremely knowleagable in the rules. I read many fights before making the final decision to post a character. As an unbiased observer i see them fraught with errors mechanically. Some are really good, but some should just be scrapped and re-runned. I also read the no re-run policy. Someone made a good point. When it comes down to it, do you just stubbornly starve the combatants because neither wish to budge? Or say they both lose when no one is willing to break the stalemate. And it really looks like it was a stalemate. If i can put my two cents worth, i can just as easily argue that in order to charge you would have to put yourself in line to be charged by the other guy first. And even with the exceptional mobility of the losing guys horse, couldn't Dora, nora, something like that, just move out of the way when his turn comes and continue shooting with the bow? Seems people are pretty touchy on this subject as it seems to have quite an importance. Not sure what the history was. I can't say i'd have done better, i probably would have just starved them. But then, they'd both be mad at me, so i guess it's a good thing i didn't run it. lol With that in mind, i think i'll just stick to playing for now. I'll win, i'll lose. Some will be good, some will be bad. From what i'm reading, i'll expect it from here on end and don't worry I won't get upset if i lose. Spike |
| Magagumo11-21-03, 05:10 PM | Having gotten all my tactics out today, (and thus not being a hypocrite), I'd love it if I could get more than just Johan's tactics. I'd like to possibly run my fights thsi evening and tomorrow evening, and am unable to do so. Cat, Jindl, I know tactics will be complicated and impressive, btu I do still need them by tomorrow. Hate to put pressure on low-levels, but they tend to be far simpler, and I'd appreciate it if Draloth, you could get me Dorrin's tactics ASAP. Thanks guys :) |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-21-03, 05:21 PM | @ Market_Share: The answer isn't as easy as that. Oh, and welcome to the fight club. The first rule of the fight club, is there is no fight club. The question is wether i didn't follow Harvesters tactics by engaging him in melee if no opportunity to charge existed. Since i assume a character actually wants to win, rather than starve or by default lose for refusing to fight, as a moderator i have to compensate for things not covered in tactics. Regardless if Harvester didn't want to engage in melee, there is no other way to win. I feel i made the right decision, he doesn't. That's all it is. Mechanically, i can't be faulted, unless i forgot to add a +1 or something somewhere, and i knew this fight would be under heavy scrutiny so i really really double checked all additions. Perhaps we can discuss the house-ruling of a stalemate rule? Tellish |
| Prexx11-21-03, 06:31 PM | Originally posted by Caterane I referred to p.155 "blabla if you have a standard action only, you can still charge" So if I am restricted to standard actions only I have actually more options available? A zombie rider may ready a charge while a paladin may not? What if I cast slow on myself? In the PH it states: If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can't use this option unless your are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn (such as during a surprise round). When you ready an action, you are restriced to only taking a standard or move action. You are able to ready a charge, but only if all of your movement that round has been in the same direction as the charge. This is to prevent someone from moving up, then readying and charging around a corner. Or from backing up, then readying and charging forward. The following is from the Main D&D FAQ. The informatation is a little outdated, but I feel it still gets to the "spirit" of the rules. I have a fighter character. Is there any way I can keep enemy spellcaster and archers from simply stepping 5 feet back from me and blasing me with ranged attacks or spells? [long description of using reach weapons or striking an opponent's weapon]...You could also do the following: Ready an action so that when the archer steps away from you, you make a partial charge against him (or just a 5-foot step and attack). When you've finished your attack, he's within your reach and you'll get an attack of opportunity against him if he tries to shoot.... Main D&D FAQ pg. 41-42 This shows that it is possible to ready a charge action. Is it possible to prepare a partial charge, move, turn, and then execute the charge? Do I get a 5-foot step in between my move and my charge? Cain I squee an extra 5 feet of movement out of each round by moving as a partion action, then takinga 5 foot step and attacking as a partial action? No in all cases. When you charge, all your movement must be in a straight line (and in the same direction) any movement you make before a partial charge counts against you. Main D&D FAQ pg. 39 This shows that when you do ready a charge action, the previous movement you made during the round still counts against you, and you must make all of your movement in a straight line in the same direction when performing a charge. Hope this answers your questions Cat. |
| Prexx11-21-03, 06:50 PM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx :eek: I'm not a flakker! ...Am I? :embarrass :D *edit* and...what's flak?? Flak is what is loaded into anti-aircraft guns, chracterized by an explosion with lots of shrapnel. It is commonly use as an analogy when one person is unhappy with another person and is expressing his opinion. e.g. Bob is giving Joe flak Means Bob is unhappy with Joe and is confronting Joe about it. |
| barrel_master11-21-03, 07:04 PM | Originally posted by Market_Share I had many of the same questions, but it seems most have been answered. I guess since i'm so new i'd be outa line commenting on the fight that ppl are up in arms about. And not having moderated anything here, i think i'm a little gun-shy now so to speak. I consider myself extremely knowleagable in the rules. I read many fights before making the final decision to post a character. As an unbiased observer i see them fraught with errors mechanically. Some are really good, but some should just be scrapped and re-runned. I also read the no re-run policy. Someone made a good point. When it comes down to it, do you just stubbornly starve the combatants because neither wish to budge? Or say they both lose when no one is willing to break the stalemate. And it really looks like it was a stalemate. If i can put my two cents worth, i can just as easily argue that in order to charge you would have to put yourself in line to be charged by the other guy first. And even with the exceptional mobility of the losing guys horse, couldn't Dora, nora, something like that, just move out of the way when his turn comes and continue shooting with the bow? Seems people are pretty touchy on this subject as it seems to have quite an importance. Not sure what the history was. I can't say i'd have done better, i probably would have just starved them. But then, they'd both be mad at me, so i guess it's a good thing i didn't run it. lol With that in mind, i think i'll just stick to playing for now. I'll win, i'll lose. Some will be good, some will be bad. From what i'm reading, i'll expect it from here on end and don't worry I won't get upset if i lose. Spike If you see any errors mention them on this board... personaly, I find that the arena is a place to test builds/tactics and a place to learn the D20 rules. |
| Prexx11-21-03, 07:18 PM | Here are my feelings on the Harvester vs Iron fight. I think that Tellish made the right decision. It was clear that neither opponent was going to be able to charge the other. The tactics that were sent were simply not valid for the circumstances. Tellish had to make a call on what the gladiators would do given that the fight didn't turn out as either of them had planned. And don't feel too bad, you had a bad luck streak, but I've seen worse. At least you didn't get hit by a critical hit from across the arena and die on the first round like some other character I can think of. I think Tellish is one of our best moderators. And I'm not just saying that because Tellish has moderated the fights that I have won. In fact, both fights that he was my moderator I lost. But I can say this. He is unbiased, and very knowledgable in the rules. He does his absolute best each and every fight to make them fair. Your fight may not have turned out exactly like you wanted it to, but it was a fair fight, and that's all you can really ask for. |
| Caterane11-21-03, 07:35 PM | I am still not convinced that it is impossible to charge someone with a 10x10ft space who stands behind a 5ft colum and on top of that you wield a reach weapon. What`s the point in playing a mounted charger when everyone can just stand behind a colum and negate most of my fire power??? Can anyone tell me? Right, nothing. Apparently I made some serious build mistakes by taking mounted feats... |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-21-03, 07:43 PM | Originally posted by Caterane I am still not convinced that it is impossible to charge someone with a 10x10ft space who stands behind a 5ft colum and on top of that you wield a reach weapon. What`s the point in playing a mounted charger when everyone can just stand behind a colum and negate most of my fire power??? Can anyone tell me? Right, nothing. Apparently I made some serious build mistakes by taking mounted feats... You were standing 10' away from the cover. I pointed that out in the fight as well and explained WHY you were 10' behind it as opposed to right up against it. Right up against, YES you can charge. No arguments there. I just did (as both asked) to do everything to avoid being charged at all cost. That's what i did. @prexx - Hey, it just dawned on me that you changed your avatar. Cool one too. Too many ppl confusing us together based on our previously similar avatars. lol, and thx btw. Tellish |
| Moherajikuyx11-21-03, 08:05 PM | Whoa what a traffic! :) Originally posted by Jindl Yes, spells memorized are part of the tactics that you email to your moderator. I shall add that all the rules are considered to be in constant scrutiny. Originally posted by Magagumo Having gotten all my tactics out today, (and thus not being a hypocrite), I'd love it if I could get more than just Johan's tactics. I'd like to possibly run my fights thsi evening and tomorrow evening, and am unable to do so. This is important: the tactics have to be sent within 2 days, or the moderator is allowed to run the fight, and this is a rule born with the arena. Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket Perhaps we can discuss the house-ruling of a stalemate rule? I believe it's way too situational to get abstracted and legipherated. Originally posted by Prexx In the PH it states: You could also do the following: Ready an action so that when the archer steps away from you, you make a partial charge against him While I agree with all your other quotes, a charge has a minimum distance of 10'. Originally posted by Caterane What`s the point in playing a mounted charger when everyone can just stand behind a colum and negate most of my fire power??? I believe you had to kill the horse first, then it would have been hard to run behind obstacles and do anything else. |
| Jindl11-21-03, 08:10 PM | Tactics sent for the Iceman and the Elder. Still working on Jindl's, but they'll be sent soon. I have received tactics from everyone except Kukanil. |
| Prexx11-21-03, 08:43 PM | @Tellish - Yeah, I decided to change my avatar largely because when I scrolling through messages I would always stop at the wrong places because our avatars were the same. And I like my new one better. @Caterane - The charger is still a valid build. I was considering making a character based on charging (though I was thinking of making a druid who rides his animal companion). Many characters don't have the mobility to move behind cover every round unless they constantly hover around a single pillar. Also, there is something to be said for a character's versatility. I mean, if you make a 1-trick character, what do you expect people to do? If all of your strength is wrapped up in charging, wouldn't you expect people to try to rob you of that strength during a duel. I know that if our characters fought, my first priority would be to get behind cover, then try and sleep or hold or blind or do anything to take your mount and charging ability out of the equation, thus robbing you of your greatest strength. |
| Caterane11-21-03, 08:59 PM | I know that if our characters fought, my first priority would be to get behind cover, then try and sleep or hold or blind or do anything to take your mount and charging ability out of the equation, thus robbing you of your greatest strength. But at least you actually do something. Example: "I don`t want Lothar hitting me with his greatsword" "I don`t want Bruno hitting me with a ghoul touch" "I don`t want Bilo use his Death attack" Does this work? No, of course not. You have to devise a really good tactic involving equipment and/or spells. But: "I don`t want the Harvester charging me" works perfectly well without even doing something. Just step behind a colum and make 5ft steps every round to adjust position. No problem. So I can never charge. 3 feats wasted on that. |
| Magagumo11-21-03, 09:34 PM | And they can rarely stand out in the open, ebcause doing so will inherit death from the "Dread Rider." If they aren't amazing meleers, they don't dare stand close to the mounted cleric, and will either keep stepping 5' (so they don't get speared by AoO) and get smashed by a lance and three horse attacks, or run folishly into the open and die. I think not using the scimitar was a bad idea, honestly. Critting is wonderful, but 1.5x str damage (which is all the time you are mounted, not jsut charging) far outweighs the other, and the reach is very useful as well. If they're hiding, Cat, then you've just managed to keep them in one place, and are one step closer to victory ;) |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-21-03, 09:50 PM | Originally posted by Caterane So I can never charge. 3 feats wasted on that. Not wasted. I wanna comment, but my methods of defeating the 5' pillar dance is my secret. I'll pm them to ya. If i had a mounted/charging character build, better believe i could charge my opponent with impunity. I'd build it as such so there would be no complications. Either that, or you'd be suffering a TON of grief I'm sitting here, screaming in my head, wanting to just spout it out. But cannot. Sadly enough, i do not have a mounted build in the arena. Tellish |
| Mercy11-22-03, 12:53 AM | Hello all. I've finally made it back and have reactivated Targ. You know, the guy with the perfect record (0 wins, 0 loses). Targ's been reincarnated into a halfing wizard. I hope that's alright, since he's never actually fought in the Arena. If it's not then I've copied the old Targ and will re-post him. I can even moderate fights now so here's my email address. sfarmer4 (at) kc (dot) rr (dot) com Please review Targ and let me know if I made any mistakes. |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-22-03, 01:54 AM | Your character is absolutely flawless. Congrats on a perfect build. That is a very well laid out character as well. Easy to read, and reference and stuff. Refreshing to see something a little different as well. We've had quite a resurgence of fighter/barbarians and/or dwarves in the last few weeks. Good mix to add to the soup. I'm very eager to see how well he matches up. I've already loosened my purse strings to put a few bets on him. Tellish |
| Moherajikuyx11-22-03, 04:34 AM | Welcome back Mercy! Ye' old company o' the grudges is here to meet you :) Cat, trying to be offending, you're being ridiculous... You based your last post on the assumption that I told only that thing in my tactics. Come on! Is the taste of defeat so bitter? :D |
| Caterane11-22-03, 04:56 AM | Morning. Having had a good night´s sleep the world looks brighter again. Ah Mo, I was just upset about the fight going a completely different direction, one I hadn`t even thought about. I can bear a good defeat. Well, there`s always another week but I tell you: if one of Irlina`s characters overtakes the Harvester I jump out of the window :D Time for a big cup of coffee; then the fights (received all tactics BTW) Cat Edit: Just testing positions Buttmunch:...., (x/x); Red Baron:…, (x/x); Kelek:.........., (x/x); Buttmunch:..., (x/x); Red Baron:..…, (x/x); Kelek:.........., (x/x); |
| Prexx11-22-03, 06:42 AM | I just have two quick things for Mo. 1) Could you change Pyre Ashwood's name on the roster to Pyre the Cursed? 2) I find I have a lot more free time on my hands than usual. I would be interested in moderating one fight per week. My email address is nathanbove at hotmail dot com. |
| Moherajikuyx11-22-03, 07:17 AM | :) Happy to see you guys happy too! Great news Prexx, welcome among Ye Old Grudges! (moderators) :D |
| fluiddragon11-22-03, 07:36 AM | Some small problems with new gladiators. thavirol: 1. Please use the standard sheet. 2. Spell casting prodogy is not a core feat please choose something else. 3. Haste is a sorc/wizard/bard spell. Unless it is a domain spell for a core domain you cannot use the scroll. And you do not have any ranks in UMD. 4. It is very hard to understand what your modifiers to skills/combat/saves are. If including modifiers put them in brakets and lable them [+2 base, +3 ability, +2 racial] etc. Please list cost of newly purchsed items |
| MotherBast11-22-03, 08:20 AM | The Ydaf vs. Cliodhna fight is done, and will be posted soon. A quick explanation for Cliodhna about the first couple of rounds. Your tactics said if you won inatiave, to cast sleep. As your 205' from your foe at the start of the fight, and your sleep range is 110', you couldn't sleep on the first round. Since your tactic was to sleep if you won inatiave, I moved you twords sleep range the first two rounds, to try and comply with your tactics. I wasen't sure if this was your plan, or if the sleep thing was an oversight on your part, but I followed the letter of your tactics. Someting I noticed running this fight. When you target a sleep spell and more than one creature of equal HD are in the radius, you can still hit whichever one you want. The creatures closest to the point of origion are affected first. So if that raging Barbarian is charging at you on his mount, just make sure the Barbarian is the point of origion, and you don't have to worry about the horse soaking up the sleep. Same against a wizzy using his familure, or a druid using his companion. I know Candessa will keep this little tidbit in mind. |
| Jindl11-22-03, 08:43 AM | PHB, sleep spell description, pg 280 A sleep spell causes a magical slumber to come upon 4 Hit Dice of creatures. Creatures with the fewest HD are affected first. Among creatures with equal HD, those who are closest to the spell's point of origin are affected first. If multiple creatures are in the area, you do NOT get to pick which ones are affected. The lowest HD is affected first, regardless of distance from the point of origin. Only if they have equal HD does the distance to the origin matter (and in this situation the caster can gain limited control by placing the point of origin closer to his intended target). Unfortunately, it is rare that your opponent has a companion of equal HD. And sleep becomes completely ineffective after 4th level. But it is still a good tactic for the first couple of fights :) -Jindl |
| MotherBast11-22-03, 08:55 AM | yeah, I pointed out in my post they had to have equal HD. A wiz and his familure will always have = HD, as will a druid and his AC. A mount will only have = HD with his master at level 2 usually, and then it would put both to sleep anyway come to think of it..... Bah, there it is non the less.... fight is up by the way. Luck was a big theme in this one, fitting since it involved a cleric of Luck. Now, I wont say exactly what kind of Luck he had, good or bad. You'll just have to read it. |
| Caterane11-22-03, 10:34 AM | Does Blindsense negate Mirror images? Quick answer apreciated. |
| Jindl11-22-03, 10:40 AM | Nope. BlindSIGHT negates it tho. Blindsense merely tells you what square your opponent is in. Concealment (and similar visual effects like mirror image) still apply. However, anyone may close their eyes and ignore the mirror images, though then the opponent would have total concealment. -Jindl EDIT: @Magagumo - tactics sent for Jindl. @ Kukanil - If I don't get your tactics in the next 8 hours, I'm gonna go ahead with the fight... |
| Caterane11-22-03, 10:49 AM | Thanks Jindl. Had the same impression on Blindsense. |
| Caterane11-22-03, 12:48 PM | Finished my first fight. Hope you enjoy it Kelek vs Buttmunch the Ridiculous (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1903420#post1903420) Cat PS: My other fight will take a while. I am going out now and tomorow is my roleplaying session. Monday and Tuesday I have to prepare a lecture I am holding. Try to put it in between somewhere but I cannot promise. |
| Jindl11-22-03, 02:02 PM | RE: Kelek vs Buttmunch That was an expensive fight for the winner. Some minor mistakes: 1. Dire bats fly at good maneuverability, which means they can hover and don't have a minimun speed. So, Red Baron does not in fact, have to move a certain distance each round. 2. If your mount moves its speed or less, then you do not have to make a concentration check to cast a spell. Concentration checks are required to cast only if your mount moves more than its speed in a round. 3. All concentration check DC's should include the spell level for the spell being cast. Please see the concentration skill description. 4. In round 11, it appeared that Kelek was casting defensively (thus the concentration check against 15+1 spell level). He passed this check, therefore there should have been no attacks of opportunity made against him. {EDIT: Withdrawn, now that I realize that he cast and then moved.} -Jindl EDIT: Hey, at least nobody got CDG'd while stunned ;) EDIT: @ Tellish - A druids dire bat animal companion gets regular evasion at 7th level. It never gets improved evasion. Thanks, Mag! |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-22-03, 03:11 PM | Just a thought on the Ydaf fight. You don't need to hear your opponent to make a spellcraft. You just need to either see or hear. As i looked at my character sheet against buttmunch, it seems as my last edit didn't go through. Hmm. Maybe i hit back on my browser before hitting ok. No problems though, as nothing that's missing would have been in effect for the fight. What? NO ENTANGLE or Bat Swarm!? phew! That was an absolutely entertaining story, thus you've definately earned the title of Arena Bard. So few can make fights as colorful and entertaining to read as that. I was on the edge of my seat all a long. I thought we could draw things as we moved, because of the "improvised weapon" rule? Just curious, because i've been doing that with fights i've moderated. arg...i mis-read the hide from animals spell. I only thought i had to attack an animal to break the enchantment. Live and learn. I also said potion when i meant scroll....doh. Also, Red Baron has improved evasion? I didn't think it had evasion at all. Since Buttmunch is 5th -3=2. Looking on the animal companion chart still doesn't give it evasion. But i must confess, i know almost nothing about druids. Easily the weakest point in my game knowledge are druids and bards. I was trying to come up with a new build somehwere along the lines of barbarian/druid mounted combatant with Mounted Combat and Trample, but sadly, i couldn't find a heavy war horse as an animal companion for druids, which is strange really. Which means i'd have to wait until Level 7 and rhino to make it truely brutal. Too long of a climb. Also, this brings up a question. Trample says my mount gets to make a free hoof attack on an overrun. What if your mount (eg. Bison) doesn't have a hoof attack listed? Would you just use it's primary attack in it's place? If that is true then the same could be said for the dire bat overrunning someone correct? It would just bite as you mowed you opponent down. Again, Kudos to Cat for an excellent read. Tellish |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-22-03, 03:25 PM | Originally posted by Jindl RE: Kelek vs Buttmunch That was an expensive fight for the winner. Some minor mistakes: 1. Dire bats fly at good maneuverability, which means they can hover and don't have a minimun speed. So, Red Baron does not in fact, have to move a certain distance each round. 2. If your mount moves its speed or less, then you do not have to make a concentration check to cast a spell. Concentration checks are required to cast only if your mount moves more than its speed in a round. 3. All concentration check DC's should include the spell level for the spell being cast. Please see the concentration skill description. 4. In round 11, it appeared that Kelek was casting defensively (thus the concentration check against 15+1 spell level). He passed this check, therefore there should have been no attacks of opportunity made against him. -Jindl EDIT: Hey, at least nobody got CDG'd while stunned ;) EDIT: @ Tellish - Dire bats have improved evasion naturally, its not an animal companion thing. The AoO in rd 11 came from me moving. Since i did something other than a double move, i would provoke from both Red Baron and Buttmunch. Also on the concentration check, there is some ambiguity there. In the description of Mounted Combat and Casting while mounted, what they mean by casting "normally" is just a straight DC 10 concentration check for casting on a moving mount. Real ambiguous. At least that's my interpretation. The concentration skill clearly contradicts the casting spells while mounted section in Mounted Combat. Is there an errata out for the Concentration Skill modifiers table? I have always forced casters to make concentration checks while the mount is moving if they are casting as a straight DC 10. I've used the modifiers listed under Concentration Skill rather than Casting While Mounted under Mounted Combat. EDIT: waddaya mean expensive? only 983.32 gp? lol Tellish |
| Magagumo11-22-03, 06:11 PM | I think you speak madness, jindl, I see no improved evasion on dire bats ;). Meanwhile, Snark and I sit in anticipation of our fight against one another ^_^. Oh, I got everyone's tactics, and will be looking towards doing the dreaded Jindl vs. Ebelin tonight, unless my social schedule is abruptly changed :-P |
| Jindl11-22-03, 07:09 PM | Thanks, Mag. You are correct. Not sure what I was thinking there... But I am working on the Bruno vs Moon-moon fight. With a much clearer mind, too! -Jindl |
| fluiddragon11-22-03, 07:53 PM | Paul vs Hurts is done, I'll post it in a few minutes very exciting fight. This is the first time I used extensive readied actions and a mounted charcter, so please go gentel on your critisisms. I learned allot on this fight, and I hope it is not riddled with errors. -fd edit The fight is posted. Hope I didn't mess up too bad. Don't send the Harvester to get me! |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-22-03, 08:39 PM | I don't see any immediate errors, that appeared to have been perfectly executed. I haven't scrutinized it yet. But WOW...how many 20's can Paul and his horse roll, sheesh! LOL Didn't quite turn out the way i thought it would tactically speaking of course, but nontheless i am satisfied with the results. I kinda thought Paul would try to do a lot of charging. Ya Like my pillar dance? :ayyyy!: Good job Fluid, very..um..fluid. Tellish |
| fluiddragon11-22-03, 08:53 PM | I could only find 1 20 sider, my kids love the dice and take them all the time. And the only d20 I had was my lucky one. Its ugly as hell and glows in the dark but it rolls great. I almost think it is unbalanced, as I roll 16's and 20's quite a bit. Its glow in the dark pink, and I've had it 8 years. So you guys were even both got to use my lucky die. -fd It was a tough fight. If Paul had even 1 CLW potion it would have gone different. It came down to he got 2 attacks (horse) and Hutz got one, plus he could do 2-3 pts more dmg with each hit and had more startng hitpoints. Hurtz needs a greatsword or something the d6 with lower str just doesn't cut it. Crits happened alot but that was mostly luck. Hurtz tactics were good they stopped Paul from getting full attacks, but 1-2 more rounds would have changed the outcome, if more healing was available. |
| sshuit11-22-03, 09:13 PM | Couple quick questions : 1) when selling stuff how much do you get for it? 1/2 ? 1/3? 2) Is a darkwood hvy . shield considered a "custom item"?... or similar, eg. dragonhide studded leather etc.etc. sshuit |
| fluiddragon11-22-03, 09:15 PM | 1) 1/2 2) i dont know |
| Jindl11-22-03, 09:29 PM | 2. Dragonhide can only be made into specific armor types. Studded leather isn't one of them. They are listed in the dragon hide description. -Jindl |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-22-03, 09:47 PM | Just a quite note as i see something and didn't catch on it earlier. You said i could only buy +1 arrows in packs of 50. I was under the understanding after the whole partial wand discussion that ammunition didn't fit in that category and we were free to buy individual arrows/bolts etc... I know i've been doing this since my characters began, (and you've modded him before with them) as i've seen others in the past. Just curious, because i've expended a bit of money for on those and many past fights ended up using them. Tellish |
| fluiddragon11-22-03, 09:53 PM | The arrow thing came up in the last week and I think Mo said you can't buy them singly. |
| sshuit11-22-03, 10:35 PM | Oh, I wasn't actually interested in Dragonhide Studded leather, I was actually looking at a Darkwood Lance or something like that... Is it considered custom and therefore must be crafted? sshuit Originally posted by Jindl 2. Dragonhide can only be made into specific armor types. Studded leather isn't one of them. They are listed in the dragon hide description. -Jindl |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-23-03, 12:17 AM | Ya, 'fraid you gotta craft them as they aren't listed under the equipment in phb. Also, i've updated both my characters (surprisingly had a bit of unexpected time on my hands), however, BOTH will sit out this week. I will still moderate one fight though. @Bilo/Snark - please read my back ground for Kelek. :smirk: But i'll also need an answer from Mo on what the status was with the arrows. I'll have lots of refunding to do if that's the case. Also, both my characters now use the new standard character sheet format. :D Tellish **EDIT** Hey, just out of curiosity, has anyone tried to talk to Alathar? See if he wants to come out of retirement to challenge Iron? I'd pay to see that. EDIT AGAIN @Thavirol, your character needs major overhaulling dude. I think some things were already pointed out, like the haste scroll and spell casting prodigy. Also what are your domains? You have a bonus in your attacks as Hatred Domain, that's not core. PHB, DMG, MM is all we got at our disposal. Use the standard character sheet found near the top of the first page of the character build thread there and you'll be fine. |
| LLMadCow11-23-03, 01:53 AM | Well, last week Mo and I had an extaqnsive sht about the cost of arrows and purchasing them in quantites of less than 50. All arrows MUST be purchased in sets of 50. However, arrows can be sold back i less than sets of 50, so.... Get Craft Magic Arms and Armors. (Req: 5th Level) Craft 50 +1 Arrows (Bane, Flaming, etc) - Base 2350gp x 2/3 = 1566.66gp. Sell remaining arrows back at (1/2 of 2350/50) = 23.5gp each. (50 x 23.5 = 1175gp) Cost to craft 50 and sell 40 back - [1566.66 - (40 x 23.5)] = 626.66. Actual cost per arrow - 62.66gp. So, if you have Craft Magic Arms and Armors, and an overhead of 2350gp, you can craft arrows at a cost of 62.66gp per arrow. Example... I want 10 +1 arrows, 10 Flaming arrows and 10 Bane: Human arows. So I must have: (62.66 x 30) = 1879.8 + 1566.66 = 3446.46 to cover the cost of the arrows and the overhead of the arrows. I think all the math is correct. |
| LLMadCow11-23-03, 02:03 AM | FIGHT SPOILERS @Irlina - The fight was short and surprising. For the record I wanted to say that the outcome was unexpected and the dice were against you. I went into the fight figuring that Cliodhna had a 1 in 5 chance of winning. Ydaf looks solid and should fare well against many of the spell casters he encounters. Good luck in future rounds... |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-23-03, 02:32 AM | @ LL, i think i'll just refund the money and get masterwork arrows instead or a magic bow, yuk! **EDIT: all refunds are complete. I didn't waste the money on a magic bow thank gawd. Just a couple of oils of magic weapons, but still, that's extra buff time that i usually don't have. Lately when i've been fighting ppl, their on me like fly on ...... and don't get too much buff time. @fluid, if i had a greatsword i was a gonner. Paul and the horse missed several times by just one. I'd be long dead without the shield bonus. And as for the pot. CLW, i still one left. I have to agree with LL on the Ydaf fight. I don't think any character in this arena has been cursed with more bad luck than Irlina has. I also think Ydaf is a solid build and will fare well in the future. Wow, still lots of fights left to be run. I sit here anxiously awaiting them to read. Tellish |
| Moherajikuyx11-23-03, 05:23 AM | Moderators, as a rule of thumb fights shall be done before mondays, so that people have the time to edit the characters before the pairings, that are on wednesdays. Of course delays are possible and understandable, but if they become too many we'll have to increment the time period among fights, and I think no one wants it. Good work! |
| Caterane11-23-03, 07:44 AM | Woohoo, 20min until my D&D group comes over. My character is a CN human necromancer. (@Tellish: guess his name? :D ) I noticed that Tellish changed Kelek`s alignment. Are there any arena rules about that? In the extreme one could adjust his alignment as he sees fit to counter his opponoments abilities (Smite evil, Protection from..., enemy has unholy arrows, etc...). On the other hand there are no SRD restrictions concerning alignment shift. @Mo: Who`s Hatori Hanzo? |
| Prexx11-23-03, 07:54 AM | Originally posted by Caterane @Mo: Who`s Hatori Hanzo? Mo's signature a line from from the movie Kill Bill: Volume 1. In the movie, Hattori Hanzo was a japanese swordsmith, capable of making the finest katanas. I don't want to say more or else I might spoil the movie. If you haven't seen it, go see it, it is an excellent movie. |
| fluiddragon11-23-03, 07:55 AM | There are no penalties in 3.0 and 3.5 for changing alignment, at least to my knowlege. As a mod I wouldn't allow the alignment to change to counter a specific character's spells or abilities. But I wouldn't have a problem with characters who changed alignment for access to a new class, Like a monk who changes his alignment to become a barbarian, or vice versa. I don't think this is that big of a deal. After all we are min/maxers. But for a specific match, no way. Like going from CE to LG so the paladin can't smite you is a no-no. I have also always hated the alignment aspect of DnD but it is difficult to remove from the game. I tried but so many spell/effects/rules make it difficult. But here in the arena I don't think it is that big of a deal for the most part. But with all the paladins coming up I don't think it is smart to be evil though. But still cool. edit; If you are looking for an edge you can cheeze out an be "neutral" so that none of the protection spells effect you, but this is cheezy. |
| Prexx11-23-03, 08:27 AM | I have a couple of questions. 1) What is the official ruling on slain companions? If a paladin's mount is slain, does he automaticly get his mount back for the next battle? What about a blackgaurd who's undead servant is destroyed and incapable of being resurrected? 2) It is stated that a character is only able to bring one companion with him into battle. What about the blackguard who has a class feature of both a fiendish servant and an undead servant? It would seem wrong to deny him one of his main class abilities. 3) Where are there rules for kneeling in combat? After looking through the PH, all I could find is a small table that listed a +2 AC bonus from ranged attacks while kneeling. But it did not state what type of action it was to kneel or stand up from kneeling. 4) I am thinking of making a custom magical item pretty soon with Pyre. I want to run it by you guys to make sure I am doing everything by the books. Pyre's Amulet of Warding: Constant Mage Armor Constant Shield +1 Natural AC +1 Deflection AC +1 Insight AC +1 Luck AC Cost: 4000 (Shield 1(spell lvl) x 1(caster lvl) x 2000(continuous base price) x 2(1min/lvl)) 1875 (Insight AC 1^2 * 2500 * .75(first similar ability)) 1250 (Luck AC 1^2 * 2500 * .5(second similar ability)) 1000 (Mage Armor 1(spell lvl) x 1(caster lvl) x 2000(continuous base price) x 1(1hour/lvl) * .5(third similar ability)) 1000 (Deflection AC 1^2 * 2000 * .5(fourth similar ability) 1000 (Natural AC 1^2 * 2000 * .5(fifth similar ability) 10125 * .66(self crafted) Total Price: 6682.5gp I think all of the numbers are correct, but I wanted to run them by you guys. I know that Pyre doesn't have craft wonderous item yet. I was planning on picking it up at level five with my wizard bonus feat and crafting the item then. I just wanted to make sure I had everything planned out ahead of time so I can keep things rolling smooth. |
| Caterane11-23-03, 08:30 AM | Neutral is kinda boring IMHO. The Harvester is neutral because that perfectly suits him (to all: The Harvester is NOT evil) but in no way I did this because of the Protection spells. He don`t casts many spells on them anyway. Perhaps we could rule that every three matches you may adjust your alignment one step on one axis only. Edit: Skip this Bilo Darkleaf...: (x/x) Eniolissayn.....: (x/x) Bilo Darkleaf...: (x/x) Eniolissayn.....: (x/x) |
| Caterane11-23-03, 08:35 AM | Bilo Darkleaf...: (x/x) Eniolissayn.....: (x/x) Bilo Darkleaf...: (x/x) Eniolissayn.....: (x/x) Bubo the owl..: (x/x) @Jindl: LIGHTGREY is crap. I take TEAL for him |
| Moherajikuyx11-23-03, 08:38 AM | Prexx, 1- the summoned (pala) or enchanted (drd) companions are back for free, the bought ones (familiars) have to be rebought with no exp penalty. 2- I think we should let the blackguard use all his class abilities, so yes. 3- I'd say move, or free during a move, but that's just me. 4- we're not using custom items for various reasons, in particular of balance and of dm adjudication dependancy. Don't get craft wondrous if you're going to get it only for that; and consider that the objects' CLs are requirements now, for wrong it may seem, so it's better to get that feat late. *edit* and your example shows exactly another good reason to not use them. Continuous mage armor would better be described by a bracers of armor +4, quite more expensive than that, and with wrists as favoured slot. |
| fluiddragon11-23-03, 08:46 AM | Prexx Don't make the same mistake I first did. Craft Wondrous item doesn't get good till higher levels. I'd wait to get it. At 5th you can make a cloak of resistance +1, At 8th you can make bracers +1. Hey if you want a 1000gp pearl of power you have to wait till level 17. -It stinks but it is core. @Cat. I was'nt refering to Harvester with Neutral being cheezy, as it fits the character, and what you are doing with it. I am refering to characters who only take it so that they aren't effected by the protection spells. Not that I don't do some cheesy things somethings ;), but on most characters it is cheesy. edit: I don't think we need any extra rules on alignment. It's easy enough to spot, and as a mod if I get a evil charcter who all of a sudden is facing a paladin and has a change of heart and is good, well I'm just not going to allow it, and I think most mods are the same. Core is restricting enough, I don' think we have to add on restrictions that aren't there. If we start doing that then it stops being core. If the barbarian wants to take his 3rd level in monk and changes his alignment fine. A few levels later he changes it back, big deal, he just couldn't stand all the rules of a monestary. Add it into the character background and your set. 2edit: In regards to custom items, I'm against it, and I play 2 casters. I think we have shown that there isn't much consistancy in the cost or requiremnts of items. Most of the cost and CL requirements of items are simply arbitrary. And it is too prone to abuse. I vote to put this in the character generation rules so there is no question about it. |
| Jindl11-23-03, 08:51 AM | @ LLMadCow - There are some problems with your arrow analysis: 1) The cost per arrow is not constant. If you sell back 40 of the +1 arrows you made, your numbers are correct. But if you sold back 45, then the cost per arrow is over 108 gp. So, the cost per arrow depends on how many you sell back. With some higher math you could determine where the cost/benefit is maximized (ie. how many to sell back to get the best deal), but I'm too lazy to do that. 2) There is no such thing as flaming arrows or bane arrows. There are +1 flaming and +1 bane arrows, though. You cannot add a special ability to armor or weapons, without first having a +1 enhancement bonus. So a batch of "flaming arrows" is actually a batch of 50: +1 flaming arrows with a base price of 8350 gp. I think that enhancing the bow with special abilities and using potions of greater magic weapon will prove to be more cost effective. ******************************** Re: Special Materials Armor and weapons may be enhanced through several given methods (enchantment, size, spikes for armor, and special materials). These enhancements may be purchased and these items are not considered "custom". The classification "custom" means that you are coming up with a special ability that is new, that is not listed in the DMG (much like Pyre is doing.) So, sshuit can go ahead and buy a darkwood lance. The rules for its cost are very clear. ******************************** Re: Alignment shifts I've always felt that an alignment shift in a min/max discussion was cheezy. As a result, I don't think it should be free in the arena. Perhaps we could institute a monetary cost for the alignment shift of level^2 x 100 gp. That way as you go up in levels, it gets more expensive (because you are more set in you ways...) This cost would be for each step you shift along any axis. That way, if you want a monk who becomes non-lawful and a barbarian, you don't have to win 3 fights and progress 5 levels as a monk before you make the change. You just have to pay the $. As a matter of fact, you could start with a monk1/barb1 for a cost of 100 gp (for the shift at first level from lawful neutral to nuetral.) ******************************** @ Prexx - Your custom item gives a +4 armor bonus, a +4 shield bonus, a +1 insight bonus, a +1 natural armor bonus, a +1 deflection bonus, and a +1 luck bonus. All for the measly cost of 6682 gp. This is why making custom magic items should be banned from the arena. The chart lists a cost for a 1st level spell (mage armor) that the item bracers of armor duplicates. But the bracers cost 16000 gp while the continues mage armor item only costs 4000 gp. Without a DM to consider custom magic items, potential abuses could occure. Prexx's item gives a +12 bonus to armor class for 6682 gp. That is an abuse. I think we need to disallow the custom magic items, until we find a way to institute a DM to approve the item and its cost (making sure its balanced against the other items in the DMG.) ******************************** Well, I had two suggestions and two attempts at rule clarifications. Please let me know what you guys think! -Jindl EDIT: Originally posted by Moherajikuyx 2- I think we should let the blackguard use all his class abilities, so yes. Mo, this directly contradicts earlier statements. We had like a 7 or 8 page discussion about this. I thought the final answer was, no matter how many allies your abilities grant you, you may only take one into the arena. How is the blackguard any different than a druid/wizard? Both have 2 class ability allies, but based on previous rulings the druid/wizard can only bring in one. Why would the blackguard be able to bring in two? After playing under it, I have come to like the 1 ally in the arena rule. I don't think the blackguard should be an exception. -Jindl |
| fluiddragon11-23-03, 09:04 AM | Black gaurds should only be allowed 1 ally in the arena. They can have 1000' allies mount animal companions and prostitutes, but can only bring 1 the arena. The blackgaurd shouldn't get extra edges over other classes. A druid/wizard with the leadership feat gets 3 allies. These are all class abilities and feats. As a mod the more allies you are allowed to bring in the more complicated the fight. I certainly wouldn't want to mod a match with a druid, his animal companion, his cohort from leadership, his heavy warhorse, and all the monsters he will summon. These matches take alot longer to run than a typical dnd encounter, and all the steps are available to the world to see. It would be very difficult to mod, In a game it's different. I'm against bringing in more than 1 ally. -fd |
| Irlina11-23-03, 09:44 AM | @LL Hm, yes tough luck failing not rolling high enough twice. However, the DC was only 11 since the spell was from a scroll... The neutral issue. Well, this is a MinMax board and pure neutral is favored by the rules. Therefore I wouldn't consider this cheese... ;) What is the status quo with undead. Can a character cast the necromantic spells and create- for example- zombies? |
| Prexx11-23-03, 10:13 AM | Well, here is my opinion the custom magic item issue. When you break it all down, the effects really aren't that staggering. The cost involved in creating a custom magic item are pretty much right in line with their effects. There is one rule that I used which made my item rather abusive should probably be removed for balances reasons. The rule on multiple similar effects being less expensive. Without that rule, my item costs 10000 gp. Much more in line with what an item of that power should cost. It seems that people are really hung up on the continous mage armor vs bracers of armor +4 thing. I don't see what the big deal is. Continuous mage armor is inferior to bracers of armor. Mage armor gives a +4 armor bonus, but only +4. Never more. Bracers of armor scale all the way to +8. So early on, mage armor is a better bang for the buck, but later on down the road, it becomes completely obsolete and a waste of money. I know that the bonuses on the custom magic items. But they really aren't. The continuous effects that are on them could be gained each fight by using a cheap 12 gp scroll, but instead, I'm spending 2666 gp on an item in order to save the round I would have wasted using the scroll. It seems like a fair trade off to me. The item just saves me a little bit of time during the fight, it doesn't actually grant me anything that I couldn't already get. Since you have to be able to cast the spell in order to create an item with a particular spell effect, it is impossible for a custom magic item to grant you any ability that you don't already possess. On the other hand, consumable items such as potions, scrolls, and wands grant their user the ability to perform actions they could not ordinarily perform (such as a wizard healing, or a fighter turning invisible). When compared in such a light, the latter seems far more unbalanced in my opinion. What it all boils down to is a simple balance question. Do you think it is balanced to allow a mage to craft items that help to reduce his "buffing" time. Because that is really all custom magic items can do. [edit] Fixed some typos and clarified a few sentences |
| Jindl11-23-03, 10:13 AM | There's a lot of red ink on the character sheets for Bruno and Moon-moon. I'm going to go ahead and post the character sheets and tactics portion of the fight post. The fight text will be added soon. -Jindl |
| fluiddragon11-23-03, 11:10 AM | Originally posted by Prexx What it all boils down to is a simple balance question. Do you think it is balanced to allow a mage to craft items that help to reduce his "buffing" time. Because that is really all custom magic items can do. Casters can't prebuff. It is an arbitrary rule for game balance. From a in character stand point why couldn't you prebuff with spells that last more than a few minutes in the rounds immediately preceding your match? Obvisouly we are not walking though an anti magic fied or anything as a 16 hour mage armor still funtions. It is simply a rule for game balance. So your custom items to save a few rounds is just another way to by pass this restriction. So it is against the spirt of the arena. I would be all for allowing more pre-buffs to take place but then again I wasn't around for the Lets get ready to rumble thread, where apparently according to Mo and others it was unbalancing, and made things too difficult for non-casters. +4 AC is never obsolete. And the biggest and most precious resource in the arena, and the game it self is TIME. This is why haste in 3.5 was nerfed big time 2-3 spells in 1 round was too powerfull. Bracers +4 cost 10,000gp your item was 6700 gp and duplicated it. It also duplicated the follwoing items and only uses 1 item slot: Amulate of natural armor +1 2000gp, Dusty Rose Iuon Stone (No Slot +1 wierd bonus to AC) 5000gp, A more powerfull version of a Force Shield ring which only grants +2 ac 8500 gp, and a brooch of shielding 1500 gp. Heck Bracers of Armor +8 cost 64,000gp The cost of all those powers in 5 separate items is 27000 gp Plus this takes up 4 item slots. So the price should be quadrupled at least 108,000 gp is closer to the relative power of the item. Wizards didn't bother to use the item creation cost formula the printed, as it needs human input to balance it against the game you are in. |
| MotherBast11-23-03, 11:48 AM | The DC for the sleep scroll should have been 11 you say? Forgive me if I'm making a griveious error, but I belive it should have been 15. 10 + 1 for a level 1 scroll and + 4 for the Intellegence modifier, which I am pretty sure you apply to scrolls. I have always done so, and If it is an error, it is an error I have been making for years. |
| Prexx11-23-03, 12:03 PM | Originally posted by fluiddragon Casters can't prebuff. It is an arbitrary rule for game balance. From a in character stand point why couldn't you prebuff with spells that last more than a few minutes in the rounds immediately preceding your match? Obvisouly we are not walking though an anti magic fied or anything as a 16 hour mage armor still funtions. It is simply a rule for game balance. So your custom items to save a few rounds is just another way to by pass this restriction. So it is against the spirt of the arena. I will respond on a point by point basis. Please do not take my comments as a personal attack. I just wish to express my opinions, and I feel that you bring up valid concerns, but your premises are fundamentally flawed. First off, it is very easy for a someone to bypass the "no pre-buffs" rule. An amulet of natural armor is essentially just like casting bark skin before the match. Boots of striding and springing are like having longstrider up before the match. Boots of haste are like having haste up before the match. There are many core magical items similar in function to these. There is no rule against having continous effects in place. So your point about continuous effects violating the spirit of the "no pre-buff" rule is inherently flawed. Originally posted by fluiddragon +4 AC is never obsolete. +4 armor bonus is most certainly obsolete when I have a different item that gives me +8 armor bonus. Multiple bonuses of the same type do not stack. And an item that gives continuous mage armor will eventually be replaced by an item that gives a greater armor bonus due to the fact that the continous effect granted by mage armor can not scale. Originally posted by fluiddragon Bracers +4 cost 10,000gp your item was 6700 gp and duplicated it. You are comparing apples to oranges my friend. First, my item did not duplicate bracers of armor +4, if it did, I would be able to scale the armor bonus granted by the item to +5 at a later time, but I cannot. Second, an amulet of natural armor +5 costs 50,000gp. But a ring of deflection +2 and bracers of armor +3 duplicate the effect and only cost 17,000. Does that mean that the bracers are the ring are horribly unbalanced? No, it's just the way the numbers work. Since I chose to take many +1 bonuses instead of going with a single large bonus, the cost of the item is much lower because of the exponential formulae used item creation calculations. My item without the "multiple similar effects rule" costs 10,000 gp. Which is the same price I would pay for all of the respective items. But since all of the effects are very similar, I lumped them all into on. As is done on items such as boots of striding and springing. They combine the powers of the longstrider spell and a +5 jump skill bonus lumped into one item because both of them are very similar. Originally posted by fluiddragon It also duplicated the follwoing items and only uses 1 item slot: Amulate of natural armor +1 2000gp, Dusty Rose Iuon Stone (No Slot +1 wierd bonus to AC) 5000gp, A more powerfull version of a Force Shield ring which only grants +2 ac 8500 gp, and a brooch of shielding 1500 gp. Heck Bracers of Armor +8 cost 64,000gp The cost of all those powers in 5 separate items is 27000 gp Plus this takes up 4 item slots. So the price should be quadrupled at least 108,000 gp is closer to the relative power of the item. Finally, my item does not duplicate all of the items you listed. A force shield ring allows the user to function as tho he had a heavy shield, which includes shield bash attacks and several other things I cannot do, thus I do not duplicate the effects of the force shield ring. The dusty rose ioun stone is a slotless item, whereas my item takes up a slot on my body, so while I do duplicate it's effects, I do not duplicate it's effectiveness. And the fact that I have all of the effects lumped into one item is blessing and a curse. While it does free up more item slots on my body, if a person were to sunder my amulet, I would lose all of my magical effects from a single attack. Whereas if I had them spread out across my body, I would be far less vulnerable to such an attack. The fact that bracers of armor +8 cost 64,000 gold is neither here nor there, as I said earlier, it's just the way the numbers work. Items with a big bonus on them are MUCH more expensive than items with lots of little bonuses on them. |
| fluiddragon11-23-03, 12:30 PM | I hope you didn't take it as an attack not intended. The magic item creation rules are confusing at best. And most of the time wizards does not use their own rules when pricing items. IMO the whole item creation thing is rather arbitrary and broken if taken at the printed word without some common sence added to the mix. I mean you really have to be 17th level to craft a 1000gp pearl of power? Gimme a break. Power vs Cost vs CL requirement is way off base. Magic Items are similar to prebuffs but not the same as. I'd love it if I could get 10 rounds of prebuffs in before a fight. Bracers +1 and Mage Armor are not the same thing. Nor are Bracers +8. But all characters have equal access to magic items, not all characters have equal access to prebuffs. I don't agree with the prebuff rule but I accept it. And if you have an ultra-uber-ac-combo-booster that only takes 1 slot that free's up your body for ultra-uber-movement items and the like. You are limited to the number of active magic items you can wear and but adding all the features of multiple items into 1 item you free up you body to wear more items, thus getting a greater overall effect, bypassing this limit with a low creation cost. Your Next item might be raging-heroism--elarging-str-bootsing-bracers. Followed by spider-climbing-flying-striding-jumping-boots, With a cloak of displacement-dimmention-door-ethereal-junt. Your item gives +12 ac and makes the wearer immune to magic missiles and only takes up 1 slot. 6700gp is way to low when bracers +8 do alot less but cost 10x's as much. It would take a druid/wizard 3 rounds to get that many buffs up and by then the Harvester will have had your body impaled on his lance. Now if you want to argue to allow more prebuff's I'll be on your side! But as far as the custom items go I can't agree with it. And if we are not going to allow prebuffs for game balance reasons, then I doubt they are going to let custom items in. -fd |
| barrel_master11-23-03, 12:50 PM | Hummm... I have a few questions concerning paul's fight... Should my horse have been able to get in full attacks? I seemed that I was making 5 foot adjustments most of the time. (I did the same thing when I modded the Sir Roger fight.) What was my AC? I thought it would have been 19 with my armor and shield. But even if these are mistakes (I may be very wrong) they're minor. It's clear that you put in a lot of effort into the fight and as a result, you should be applauded fluid. |
| barrel_master11-23-03, 01:05 PM | Also, I'm guessing that I'll finish one of my fights tonight and the other by tommorow... the one with Gage is taking a while. |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-23-03, 01:25 PM | @Cat, i was actually gonna leave my alignment at Lawful Neutral because i only need to be evil to 'qualify' for assassin. I was gonna do the whole "evil for a day" thing. I had been planning to be an assassin since his inception. I was sad when i saw bilo become assassin first. Thought i'd be the first, oh well...he must be eliminated either way. LOL 1. I figured the 'evil for a day' thing to be cheesy and a bit abusive, so to balance that i would stay evil for this level and return to Lawful Neutral when i gain a new one. Or if i find i like it and it's pretty cool to be evil, i'll leave it like that for a while. 2. On the custom items issue, my answer it no. It will never change as i'm aware of the abusiveness of creating them. So i'm not gonna discuss all the thees & thous behind it. 3. On the kneeling issue. Kneeling is a free action, getting back up is a move and provokes. It's covered under the Drop To Floor action under free actions. I could just instead say, "I go prone," which is the same thing, because all relative modifiers are equal. I used 'take a knee' because ppl are generally more familiar with that tactic. 4. I also found some support for the casting spells while mounted. (which never did get discussed, so i'm bringing it up again) p. 170 phb has all the modifiers for concentration as listed in the Concentration skill list in the skills. They have them as 10+lvl/15+lvl which contradicts BOTH mounted combat and concentration skill p. 70. It seems like they missed the "+ spell lvl" on p. 70. Also just riding a horse and casting illicits concentration check, but that also goes against the mounted combat section. Can we clear this up? I think it's more relevant than the custom magic items debate because there aren't any allowed whereas we have MANY mounted casters and this will have direct impact on the fights. 5. Someone also above mention the DC for scrolls. P. 211 - Scrolls: ...lvl based effects are based on the creator not the user. p238: the user must have the prerequisite ability score to use it. The DC is based on the creator at the time. Meaning if you BOUGHT the scroll it's DC 11 since that's the minimum required to cast, if you scribed it yourself, then you should write the DC beside the scroll on your character sheet and the lvl it was created at. As i'm re-reading this, i can see that i've erred and have been erred against. I've cast several spells from crafted scrolls and was assigned the minimum DC (eg. color spray several times, have been given the minimum DC even though i scribed it). Thoughts anyone? Tellish ***EDIT __________saving scroll space___________ @Snark: yeah, that's what i thought. Get confused with multiple opinions sometimes. Also, Bilo will want to read my background. :) |
| SnarkHunter11-23-03, 01:29 PM | Wow Jindle, a lot of Red ink indeed. I really should pay more attention to these things I suppose... I thought I had mentioned RE: Dispell magic, to use a scroll of Owl's Wisdom, oops. Prexx: You are very very wrong on 3 diffferent points (multiple similar abilities, relative cost diffirences, and basic price guidelines). However it is pointless to debate any of them because we aren't allowing custom items in the arena, except for scrolls, Wands and Staves and then only when the person has the feat to craft what he likes. If you'd like to talk about custom items and the appropriate price for your item go here (http://boards1.wizards.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=20), good luck. Edit: Tellish and mother, we discussed Scroll DC's way back when we were in a snit over having feats apply to them. In short, Feats do not apply to scrolls but they do to staves and scrolls use the standard DC for the save (10+Spell level+minimun ability to score to scribe it) no matter who scribes it. |
| fluiddragon11-23-03, 01:36 PM | Originally posted by barrel_master Hummm... I have a few questions concerning paul's fight... Should my horse have been able to get in full attacks? I seemed that I was making 5 foot adjustments most of the time. (I did the same thing when I modded the Sir Roger fight.) What was my AC? I thought it would have been 19 with my armor and shield. But even if these are mistakes (I may be very wrong) they're minor. It's clear that you put in a lot of effort into the fight and as a result, you should be applauded fluid. The end result was a 5' difference from starting possition. On the mat Paul usually had to follow. I may have missed a full attack with the horse, if I did my appologies, and it was an over sight. As far as your AC goes. I just checked it now and it should have been 19. The way you have your ac laidout in the sheet was confusing. AC: 17 (10+6+1) [All buffs AC:21, Shield +2, Shield of faith +2] I thought your ac included the shield. I never considered a shield a buff. I admit I didn't check every single calaulation on both sheets. I thought you included it in your ac. I would lable it like this: AC 19 (+1 dex, +6 armor, +2 shield) [shield of faith +2] Again my appolgies. -fd @barrel; Sorry Gage's fight is taking so long, 2 casters with lots of options, I don't pitty you! That's gotta be a killer fight to mod. Cur and Gage are both very strong characters. And my tactics were nasty, I hope they made sence. I remebered like 6 more things after I sent tactics. Oh, well. I can just hope the dice gods favor me. It is going to be one expensive fight either way. Least I don't have to buy armor or weapons! Scrolls are going to put Gage in the poor house. Next time I'm going to challange a nice easy fighter. |
| Magagumo11-23-03, 01:40 PM | Ok, I've been reading a lot of confused and mislea dposts over the past 2 or three pages concerning item creation, so I'm going to take some time and break it all down for you, so that we can stop complaining about the uber-cheesiness of 3.5 item creation (which is actual quite a bit clearer and much improved over 3.0). Here goes: One: Multiple Special Abilities: To quote the DMG, (p. 282): "For items with multiple special abilities that don't take up a slot on a chracter's body use the following formula: Calculate the price of the single most costly ability, then add 75% of the value of the next most costly ability, then 50% of the other abilities (The many spell-like powers of a staff of power are a good example of multiple special abilities) Multiple Different Abilities: Abilities such as an attack roll or saving throw bonus or a spell-like function are not similar , and their values are simply added together to determine the cost. , for those items that do take up a space on a character's body (such as a ring or necklace), each additional power not only has no discount, but instead has a 50% increase in price . I have always loved crafting items in D & D, and while I am not doing so in this Arena, your misunderstanding of the rules is forbarring this wonderful ability from ever coming into play. Crafting magic items is not terribly difficult, and I agree that wizards occasionlly adjusts the price (rings that specifically note are hard o determine price for, so don't make custom ones) but magic arms and armor, as well as potions, wands, staves, and many wondrous items follow the exact rules of the book (though I agree the CLs are very off). If somonne wishes to craft an item, let us review it before instantaenous veto. I will warn against [i] shield items, 4000 market price does not adequately reflect the ability to have a +2 heavy shield floating about you without taking up your arms (or requiring a proficiency). As one final note, I would like to review that dreaded item: Shield (4000) Mage Armor (replicated by another item, so not really valid) Luck (2500 x1x1x1.5= 3750) Insight (2500x1x1x1.5= 3750) Deflection (2000x1x1x1.5= 3000) Natural (2000x1x1x1x1.5= 3000) So, in the end, you have an item that costs 17,500 market, x 2/3 for a price of 11666, that gives you a +8 to AC. If we take out the questionable shield as well, you have an item that gives +4 to AC (+3 to touch) for 13000, or 8666, when all of those items separately would have cost you less, and are sumarily ignored when you cast a decent barkskin or shield of faith. At that point, that's not really too bad, but it would be heck to upgrade. So you see, the rules can be fairly balanced, if the caster wants to spend nearly 9000 on +4 AC, when he could be crafting far more powerful items that aren't going to be useless quickly, then I say let him do it. Edit: One note, since an item that continually casts a spell granting an enchancement bonus is not broken down by spell level, but by bonus, shield isn't that insane, really- A +4 shield bonus would generally be considered under an "other" AC bonus (2500), though I do believe that Wizards has declared it under the 2k price (see Ring of Shield, it's 8k for a +2 bonus, just like ring of deflection). Thusly, just like continuous mage armor items become bracers of armor, which we know are 1000xbonus squared, a continuous shield item would cost 2000x4x4, so 32000. Instead of this, you could make it use-activated (like a command word item) for 1800x1x1x2 for 3600, so you just need to turn it on, and it lasts 10 rounds. In ym own campaign, shield items can be purcased, but they can only be used 3x per day with the 10 round duration, meaning that the monk and dueslist must first activate them, reventing them from charging into the enemy's ranks 1st round (saving the NPCs from the fate of being flat-footed against the players) |
| Prexx11-23-03, 01:57 PM | Let me start off by saying that I did not interpret anything you said as an attack against me. I just wanted to state that so that I wasn't misunderstood. Sometimes I can come off as very aloof and condesending, and I didn't want anybody to get the impression that I was trying to belittle them. Well, the item actually costs 10,000 gp, I used the optional "multiple similar effects" rule which reduces the cost of similar effects on an item. I probably shouldn't have as it makes the item look a lot more unfair than it really is. Additionally, my mage would be unable to craft the item. To add deflection bonus to an item requires the shield of faith spell, which my mage is unable to cast. And to add natural armor bonus requires barkskin, which again, my mage is unable to cast. I could try to clame sacred or profane AC, but I'm certain that such effects would be limited to good/evil clerics only. Leaving him with +1 insight, and +1 luck bonus along with his two continuous spells. So the amulet is now modified: Pyre's Amulet of Warding Continuous Mage Armor Continuous Shield +1 Insight AC +1 Luck AC Cost 4000 (Shield) 2500 (Insight AC) 2500 (Luck AC) 2000 (Mage Armor) 11000 * .66 Total Cost: 7260 gp Now, you say that an item that gives that much AC is unfair. But I think you are simply seeing AC potential of a wizard, and correlating that awe with the item. The item really only gives me +2 ac (and if that were the sole effect, the item would cost 3300, 624gp more than bracers of armor +2), the rest of it comes from continuous effects. I think that the source of discontent comes from continous effects, and not custom magical items in general. Now then, expanding on the continuous effect idea. Would it be fair for a druid to automaticly have the longstrider spell up before each battle and on top of that also gain a +5 bonus to his jump skill? All for a only 3600 gp? Well that effect is already in the game. They are called boots of striding and springing. What about coming into the arena already hasted for only 8000gp, I can do it with boots of haste. There are several items in the core rules allow someone to have a continuous spell effect from an item when they enter the arena. It is within the spirit of the rules, and there is no abuse in doing so. The question then becomes is it fair to allow items that gives continuous effects that are not detailed in the DMG. And the answer I am hearing seems to be a resounding no. But I'm really not sure why. If it is fair for a druid to be able to enter the ring with longstrider on his boots. Why can't a mage enter with expiditious retreat on his boots? If a fighter can come into the ring with haste, why can't my mage come into the ring with mage armor? I really don't see what is so unfair. You bring up the point about stacking multiple effects on the same item. I would not worry too much about that. A lot of the things you listed would not be feasible. If a person were to construct such an item, the price would be absolutely astronomical. There are rules about effects and body slot affinities. Additionally, there are rules about multiple dissimilar effects. While it would be theoreticly possible to create a "cloak of displacement-dimmention-door-ethereal-jaunt", it would not be worth it. Here is an example of that cloak. Pyre's Cloak of Dimensional Distortion Continuous Displacement Dimension Door 3/day Etheral Jaunt 3/day Cost: 163,800 (Etheral Jaunt, 2000(use activated base) * 7(spell lvl) * 13(caster lvl) * .6(3/day) * 1.5(wrong affinity)) 180,000 (Displacement, 2000 (continuous effect base) * 3(spell lvl) * 5(caster lvl) * 4(1rnd/lvl continuous) * 1.5 (dissimilar effect) 83,160 (Dimension Door, 2000(use activated base) * 4(spell lvl) * 7(caster lvl) * .6(3/day) * 1.5 (wrong affinity) * 1.5(dissimilar effect) 426960 * .66 Total Cost: 281793.6gp Still seem unbalanced? I'm sure you see what I'm trying to get at. I'm not trying to be stubborn or obstinant. I'm just trying to figure things out. I hope nobody gets offend by my keeping on the subject. If you guys are getting annoyed, just tell me to drop it and I won't bring it up again. But I think as long as we take out the multiple similar granting a discount, and enforce body slot affinities and dissimilar effect penalties, custom magic items could work. I think they would add a whole new dimension to the arena. |
| Magagumo11-23-03, 02:15 PM | Jindl!! I hope Bruno vs. Moon-moon is not comlete, but George can throw rocks! The "rock throwing" under special attacks is actually the +1 racial bonus they would get to throwing the rocks, which they do lose. Let me refer you to the cloud giant skeleton (MM 227) and cloud giant (MM 120): The cloud giant skelweton is listed as being able to throw rocks and has a +8 to hit with them (+8 Base, -2 size, +2 dex), while a cloud giant has +12 to hit with his rocks (+12 base, -2 size, +1 dex, +1 racial). So, you see, George can still throw rocks, which could eb critical in that fight if moon-moon gets airborne. I am not angry, just panicked, I'd rather not lose if the rocks become important (and the fight is still going on I do believe, so I thought I might be able to alert you in time). Other than that, I thank you for the note on shield (stupid personal only :-P), the idea on ordering a skeletion to attack a square, and the reminder (uneneeded, but appreciated) about my spell saves :-P Good luck with fight, I hope you read this before it becomes important. |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-23-03, 02:21 PM | @Mag, ya beat me to it. Yup, skele giants can still throw them, and as Mag said, they just lose the bonus. Tellish |
| Magagumo11-23-03, 02:25 PM | Heh, I only beat you due to the absolute ferver I was in to ensure my skeleton could beat airborne foes :-P Ah, got to beat Snark eventually, Bilo trashed Ander and MacMillan, and I vow he will lose to me someday. *Shakes fist* ^_~ |
| Jindl11-23-03, 02:38 PM | I left the proficiency to throw rocks, but noted that rock throwing should not be listed as a special ability. The complete fight is posted and I am a little disappointed by the amount of RED INK that was necessary. Note: Your flavor text was all replaced by the red ink. If a mod has to "fix" that much stuff, don't expect a cool story. -Jindl EDIT: Snark you have an italics problem in your fight post. |
| SnarkHunter11-23-03, 02:52 PM | Again sorry Jindle. For my part I noticed two things; One a ride check may have negated Bruno's ray of exhaustion on Monk bane. Two, Moon-moon had iterative attacks, so could possibly have smashed Bruno's face a little more. Nothing huge (on my part at least, I'm sure Bruno will have more to say ;)) thanks for a pleasent fight. Edit: Spike jagath corrected. |
| Jindl11-23-03, 02:55 PM | IMO the mounted combat feat only applies to melee combat. Plus it refers to your check replacing the mounts normal AC (not his touch AC). So for both reasons, there was no check made. As for the iterative attack, it missed on a natural 1, but upon checking I see that I somehow erased this when writing the red text about power attack. I will put it back in. -Jindl Note: Don't take my frustration at having to fix so much too seriously. I just wanted to be able to write a cool story for this, but instead spent sooo much time looking stuff up and correcting the sheets, that I didn't have time left to add the juicy stuff. I'm just disappointed. |
| Magagumo11-23-03, 03:02 PM | Ha, sorry for the errors in bruno, Jindl. How some reason, i assumed Phantasmal Killer was Long range (because I don't read things), my only note is that the PK would have been preferable to the Ray oF Exhaustion, but it all worked out well in the end. You ran a good fight, and I thank you for the knowledge of disrupting spells (I was kicking myself as I wrote tactics, as I forgot to pickl up Glitterdust,w hich would have been wodnerful for stopping the invisibility, as well as being a Will save for Moon-Moon to make (needed to roll an 11 rather than an 8 ;)). Ah, but that is life, or death. ^_~ One or the other is expected when the paladin and necromancer duke it out. As for George, I would be very appreciative to have him fixed for free. I myself cannot heal him (not a cleric) but our fighters don't tend to have the craft skill to repair their sundered weapons either... Please let me kow, because I apparently can also not purchase spells to get him fixed (fair enough on the desecrate, Jindl, though I figured no one mentioned anything, so it was worth the try). Btw, i unfortunately did use one item, as that Scroll of Vampiric Touch was used in the last rounds. Since Bruno does sleep, I'm afriad he'll just have to extinguish it on some unlucky spectator :b: Edit: My thoughts on Mounted Combat are that it works for melee or range (as it does not mention one specifically in the feat descrip) but I do agree with Jindl that they probably shouldn't count for Touch ACs. After all, when the 20th level fighter with excellent dexterity, Skill Focus Ride, items that boost ride, max ranks, and lord knows what else can give his mount Touch AC of 40+, something is definetely up ;) |
| SnarkHunter11-23-03, 03:17 PM | Hmm you may be right about it Jindle but the Feat doesn't say anything about when it can or can't be used, only that Once per round when your mount is hit in combat, you may attempt a Ride check (as a reaction) to negate the hit. The hit is negated if your Ride check result is greater than the opponent’s attack roll. (Essentially, the Ride check result becomes the mount’s Armor Class if it’s higher than the mount’s regular AC.) In the context of someone smacking Monk-Bane with a great club, then his AC is his normal AC. If its a touch then the AC being replaced is his Touch AC. Like I said I could be wrong, going to post about it on the combat board. As for the 20th level fighter, well maybe you shouldn't try touching the durn mount! or at least use a quickened Truestrike first :devil:. |
| Jindl11-23-03, 03:43 PM | @ Mag - There were several times I wanted to have Bruno use the phantasmal killer, but at all of those times, Monkbane was within charging distance. And you seemed adamant about holding that readied spell to break the charge. Might I suggest not splitting your round by round tactics into "won initiative / lost initiative". I have found that at these higher levels it is better to write your strategy as steps to try and accomplish, with reactions built in to interrupt the steps. Also, when I first saw the match-up I thought Bruno would win due to his excellent defensive spells. But not once in your tactics did you mention mirror image, invisibility, ventriloquism, mage armor, or shield (on yourself.) In short, it seems Bruno wanted to try some new tricks instead of relying on the successful ones that had brought him this far. BTW: Invisibility would have prolly saved you as MM has no was to see invis. Mirror image would have greatly reduced the chance of him hitting successfully. Mage armor and shield would have at least forced him to roll a 5 or better to hit you (instead of needing a 2.) I edited the ending text to read as follows: "Bruno used a scroll: vampiric touch. George is repaired by the arena, by a priest using inflict wounds spells (in the same way that Monkbane will be healed by a priest using cure light wounds spells.)" -Jindl EDIT: My druid is going to take leadership, get himself a cohort who maxes out the ride skill, and have her ride me (in animal shape) during the fights. That way, my rider can negate ranged and melee hits against me, using mounted combat. :) |
| Magagumo11-23-03, 04:19 PM | Well, I did consider the invisiblity trick, honestly (forgot that he couldn't see me), but the difficulty was that George was then likely to be shattered by the pair (It is hard to kill the flying paladin when your spells are very close range, and he is immune to bloody fear. Also, I think I miss-explained the breaking of the charge, as that was the tactic meant only for when he first took to the air (if he was looking to finish me in one hit w/o buffing), otherwise I was going to PK Monk-Bane, then use Spectral Hand to Ghoul Touch and Bestow Curse, etc. etc. I guess I wasn't clear with that, and hold nothing against you for any misunderstandings. Also, I had assumed that merely casting a spell on the oppoennt provoked disruption, and thus that I could easily stop Monk-bane's appearance by casting Blindness on Moon-moon (I knew his Fort was good, I just didn't realize that making the spell prevents the spell from affecting you). In the end, I live and learn, having only lost that one scroll. I'm sure there will be others very susceptible to my Will saves in the near future (Honestly, while one could try Ghoul Touching with invisiblity, using PK and Bestow Curse to weaken your opponents while your pet skeleton whomp on them is also incredibly effective... stupid paladins and their immunity to fear :-p) |
| Market_Share11-23-03, 04:47 PM | Hey WOW, Cool, i feel...um...not sure but i guess happy would be the simplest way. I won my first arena fight, woo hoo! In trying to keep with the uniqueness concept and/or combination of other builds concept i took a cleric level of Obad-Hai with Plant/Animal domains. Should provide a few extra tricks at my disposal. So he's a tripper, a mounted combatant, a cleric, a wanna-be druid all rolled into one. LOL As a dwarf my fighter level won't count against me, i can raise Cleric to 3rd and Barb to 2nd, before going fighter the rest of the way. Maybe take a dip in Horizon walker to avoid the fatigue whlie i'm at it. Who knows, that's MONTHS down the road, i'll just focus on the here and now. Can i add my two cents on the Mounted Combat thing you guys are discussing. Mounted combat can be used to avoid touch attacks, because AC and touch AC aren't seperate classes. Touch AC is a by-product of AC which occurs when someone uses an attack that denies a mount of it's armor bonuses. They aren't seperate enteties in of themselves. Mounted combat can still avoid it, because it's the reflexes of the rider not the mount that's in question. SPIKE EDIT I read the link Snark provided below and... Except for the fact that Mounted Combat does not infer an AC to your mount. It is an opposed skill roll (Ride) versus the attack roll. It does not change the AC of the mount for that single attack, nor any others which proceed it. Mounted Combat simply lets you make a ride check to NEGATE a HIT that was already made. Is propably the best one i've read. |
| SnarkHunter11-23-03, 04:56 PM | Indeed, These folk would agree with that conjecture (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=137032). Jindle: It's because of dirty dirty thoughts like that we disallowed leadership... |
| Jindl11-23-03, 05:09 PM | Re: Mounted combat- Okay, I'll buy that. So the mounted combat feat allows a reflexive skill check to negate damage (and the DC is the opponents attack roll +1). In this case, Skymoon would have needed a 17 on his ride check (meaning a roll of 5 or more, or a 20% chance of failure.) Re: Leadership- Is it outlawed? I have never been sure. (And I was joking anyway. Leadership is not in the works for Jindl. Craft Arms and Armor and a fighter level to make +1 wild shaping dragonhide plate mail and a +1 wild shaping tower shield, will be in the works. He'll have 'em all by 10th level. That's a +14 AC in animal form, with none of the drawbacks of wearing armor or using a tower shield - read the wild shaping armor ability description carefully...) Heck, I might even skip the fighter level and just suffer nonproficiency until I wildshape... -Jindl |
| Market_Share11-23-03, 05:46 PM | Originally posted by SnarkHunter Edit: Tellish and mother, we discussed Scroll DC's way back when we were in a snit over having feats apply to them. In short, Feats do not apply to scrolls but they do to staves and scrolls use the standard DC for the save (10+Spell level+minimun ability to score to scribe it) no matter who scribes it. DOH! There goes me using augmented summoning on SM scrolls. But i can see the reason for the house-rule. With the amount of scrolls that are being crafted at each level, PLUS the ones that are puchased that would need to be kept seperate, it does avoid a lot of confusion. SPIKE |
| sshuit11-23-03, 05:53 PM | Re : Crafting magical items with multiple effects. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- The big problem is the "bundling" of multiple effects in one item. In my opinion the cost for each successive power on the same item should incur a exponential increase in the cost so... 1st ability normal cost 2nd ability 3x cost. 3rd ability 5x cost. etc. This would be more in line with the progression of a magic weapon with multiple abilities +1 -> 2000 +1 Flaming -> 8000 +1 Flaming , Keen -> 18000 This is actually a 1, 3x, 5x progression for each successive power. Re : Combats that go on forever due to 1 player running away from the other. Here's an interesting rule I found in the DMG. Pg.20DMG - Evasion and Pursuit When the speeds of the 2 concerned characters are equal, there is a simple way to resolve a chase; If one creature is pursuing another both are moving the same speed and the chase continues for at least a few rounds, have them make opposed Dexterity checks to see who is the faster over those rounds.If the creature being chased wins, it escapes. If the pursuer wins it catches the fleeing creature. This rule could be adapted for those fights where one character insists on a ranged battle, and one insists on trying to get into melee. sshuit |
| Magagumo11-23-03, 06:16 PM | Ebelin vs. Jindl fight will be posted soon, though plot gave way to the Mod's bitterness at 12 rounds of pure buffing ^_~. Well, we'll see about that, but tactics were truly the champions of the day, die rolls made little significance. As for Wild armor, JIndl, I only see that the items cannot be seen while you're in animal form, and they retain the armor bonus while in the shape, I do not see any clear staement that ACP is affected by this ability, and would further more rule that it should not function in this way. |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-23-03, 06:53 PM | @Sshuit I was just taking a quick peek at some of the builds and saw you forgot to add your next lvl in HP. You should have 20. Those will be very important in whowever you fight next. :D Also, you're short one skill point. I only count 19 used, and you get 20. Concerning Ebelin vs Jindl: that's gonna be a heck'uva fight to read regardless if it's dry from much flavor. I get into these sometimes and picture how it works out in my mind, so story isn't always needed. Sometimes a good dry fight is needed. Tellish |
| SnarkHunter11-23-03, 07:29 PM | Hoo ah, I really need to stop leaving omework assignments to the night before they're due. After 3 years, you'd think I'd learn by now. By which I mean to say, I'll not have the Mara/Rito fight done till Monday afternoon. Sorry, I hope I can make it worth the wait. |
| MotherBast11-23-03, 07:37 PM | Wait, I'm sorry. Yall must have had the decussion about scroll DCs before I joined the thread. So your telling me if I have an, I don't know, +7 INT bonus, and I make a scroll of sleep, I don't get to add my INT bonus to the spells DC? The scroll just assumes I have an 11 INT? This dosen't seem to make a great deal of sence. I always thought a scroll was created by basicaly casting the spell into the parchment, and then retriggering it later. It seems if two wizards crafted the same scroll, one with INT 14, and the other with INT 24, then the spell scribed on the second scroll would be much stronger. Now I get the part about purchased scrolls, because it does say that bit about minimum ability scores in the book for purchased scrolls, but it dosen't say the same for self crafted scrolls. Like I said before, I must have missed this if Its already been explained, but I don't feel like looking throught 80 pages of thread to find out if and why I'm wrong, so if someone could please explain this scroll thing to me I would be most apreciative. And if it turns out that I am wrong, I will apoligize to Irlina. |
| sshuit11-23-03, 07:42 PM | Will fix now. sshuit Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket @Sshuit I was just taking a quick peek at some of the builds and saw you forgot to add your next lvl in HP. You should have 20. Those will be very important in whowever you fight next. :D Also, you're short one skill point. I only count 19 used, and you get 20. Concerning Ebelin vs Jindl: that's gonna be a heck'uva fight to read regardless if it's dry from much flavor. I get into these sometimes and picture how it works out in my mind, so story isn't always needed. Sometimes a good dry fight is needed. Tellish |
| Prexx11-23-03, 08:09 PM | Alright. I can see how making arbitrary custom magical item can lead to abusive items. But would it be possible to approve certain items that are very closely related to existing items on a case by case basis? For example: A dusty rose ioun stone that gives +2 insight ac instead of +1. Boots of expiditous retreat instead of boots and striding and springing because my mage is unable to create boots of striding and springing (doesn't have longstrider spell). Helm of dimension door as opposed to helm of teleportation. Such items have very close to existing items, and the pricing guidelines and caster level requirements should be very straight forward. |
| Caterane11-23-03, 08:30 PM | SPOILERS FOR EBELIN VS JINDL!! @Magagumo: Just a few corrections: - A Troglodyte form doesn`t change STR or DEX, so it would`ve been still 16/18 respectively and not 10/8 as you ran it. So Ebelin would`ve escaped from the grapple in the first place. - In R18 when Jindl voluntarily gave up the grapple I didn`t want to damage him but - as mentioned in the tactics - drag him up to the floor. At least that would`ve been 30ft, wouldn`t it? - My AC was 27 so the first of Jindls attacks wouldn`t have hit me (not that this would`ve mattered then) Well but I am too stupid not having written "don`t attack him when he`s grounded." That fact was so clear to me that I even forget to mention it in my tactic (at least I wrote drag him up). Of course he shapechanges into a bear. Could bang my head against the wall. Then again, I hate criticals. They seem to get me far too often for my taste. Is there any possibility to go undead anytime soon? Just wasn`t my week. I`ll be back. |
| Caterane11-23-03, 08:37 PM | @Jindl: Nice speech about the character sheet mess of Snark and Mag but please, next time I`ll run your fight and you haven`t posted your familiar stats I`ll put a delayed blast fireball in the Elder`s pants on round 1. :twitch: Anyway, the fight`s done: Bilo Darkleaf vs Eniolissaryn the Elder (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1912456#post1912456) |
| Jindl11-23-03, 08:48 PM | I'll add Bubo's stats, just for you Cat! :wink: -Jindl |
| Caterane11-23-03, 08:53 PM | Hey Jindl, do you read my tactics before the battle starts? :tantrum: |
| SnarkHunter11-23-03, 08:54 PM | Yup, I thought that would be a short one. ...natural 20...wow... |
| Jindl11-23-03, 08:58 PM | Nope. But I figured you'd want to grapple. So, I thought I'd show you what a grappling druid can do. Rito beware! -Jindl |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-23-03, 08:59 PM | Cat. covered the points i was gonna say so that answers why Ebelin was getting hit like he was. The only other thing that strikes me as truely odd, was that Mag said dice played no part in it? Me'thinks he was jesting, because a critical for 71 pts of dmg in one round is quite fortuitous is it not? Hey Elder, slow down a little. Hurtz has some catching up to do, cuz he wan't a re-match. LOL LOL Tellish |
| Caterane11-23-03, 09:10 PM | @Jindl: Sure. My tactic was to intercept you as hawk or human then drag you up to the top where you have to grapple with me and just have flying forms available. I just forgot to mention that I don´t wanna attack you while near to the ground. |
| Jindl11-23-03, 09:12 PM | Originally posted by Caterane - A Troglodyte form doesn`t change STR or DEX, so it would`ve been still 16/18 respectively and not 10/8 as you ran it. So Ebelin would`ve escaped from the grapple in the first place. He's right. Alter self doesn't change ability scores. But had you escaped you would have been either: 1 - Hit by my AoO if you tried to move away, and re-grappled (my next roll would have hit AC 27 if I was not grappling and I have a reach of 10 feet.) 2 - Died anyway if you stayed were you were as my 3 attacks still hit AC 27 if I am not grappling. Originally posted by Caterane - In R18 when Jindl voluntarily gave up the grapple I didn`t want to damage him but - as mentioned in the tactics - drag him up to the floor. At least that would`ve been 30ft, would it? When you initiate the grapple, you always deal damage - though you could chose to make it subdual. It takes a separate grapple check to move the grapple (and you had no attack actions left after moving and starting it.) Also, since Jindl had air walk running, he stands on air as if it were ground. So it does no good to drag him anywhere. Originally posted by Caterane - My AC was 27 so the first of Jindls attacks wouldn`t have hit me (not that this would`ve mattered then) This is true, if we were still grappling, then that first attack would miss, due to the -4 penalty to attack when grappling. But the damage would still have won the fight. Originally posted by Caterane Just wasn`t my week. I`ll be back. I look forward to it !! :) -Jindl |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-23-03, 10:00 PM | K, done Hurt'z backstory. Only 3 days late on my vaction, sheesh. Splitz'O tommorrow. Anyhow, i post too much as it is i'm sure you'll enjoy the break from me. Sux being on disability from work (kinda) i gots notins to do but sit here in front of da 'puter. @Motherbast: You may wanna read it, Brackin is mentioned in there. :D Air walk is such an awesome spell. Tellish |
| barrel_master11-23-03, 10:24 PM | Sorry dudes, I'm still working on the Gage vs Curungur fight... 30 rounds now and still going strong... how unfortunate... to reduce the time to run this fight I'm gonna reduce the descriptions. |
| Market_Share11-24-03, 12:13 AM | Just doing some reading and familiarizing myself with the arean, rules and all that good stuff. On Mo's new character sheet it says wealth at 6th is 14.4? Shouldn't it be 13,000? A few questions...these may seem really stupid so don't be too harsh if i seem silly. :p EDIT...i've refrained from asking my silly question, because they are WAY out there. SPIKE |
| barrel_master11-24-03, 12:41 AM | http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1914437#post1914437 Gage vs Curunger Very long, and (at least now I realize) annoying read. Because it was so long, I probably made several serious errors... I don't think so but it's possible. |
| SnarkHunter11-24-03, 01:06 AM | Barrel, any target spell cast by an invisbile character-Dispel Magic in this case- will negate the invisibility. Hard to say if that would have swung the fight one way or another, once the buffs go down its hard to recover... But a good fight over all, I liked the commentary. |
| barrel_master11-24-03, 01:23 AM | OMFG! I can't belive I missed that! bloody hell. |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-24-03, 01:50 AM | I scratched some comments on the fight as i was reading it. More confusion on my part with what was going on is all, so i'll shoot. ***EDIT*** I'm gonna leave these questions up here to show you how unobservant i am. LOL. K, so he's got 18 dex. My bad. lol I've answered all my own questions btw. So no need to comment on my inatentiveness. ***END EDIT**** 1. round 9 & 10 & 11. did he hit the images? Images are ac 10 + casters dex modifier 2. rd 12, another image should have disappeared 3. Images do benefit from cover, so in that case they'd have a 16 ac, not the 18 shown. 4. round 14 would have been the end of his images if not sooner. It was hard to tell, but i think round 12 would have seen the last image destroyed. If not, then here for sure. 5 . did Curungur heal? If he did i missed it. so ignore this if he did. 6. Quoting from Tactics: "If anything goes wrong, flee cure and buff." He could have mirror imaged and cat's graced, extending his lifespan. Gage didn't have any provisions for Mirror Image, but had provisons for adapting, which is cool, but Cur could have done the same. Now on Gages side: Nothing really. Went pretty much according to plan for him other than 20+ rolls of under 10. Very long fight Barrel, my condolences on rolling all those dice over and over and over again. I feel your pain. Other than my comments/questions i think it went pretty good, and the issues are minor when you think that Gage missed like 15 times in a row at one point i think. Tellish ++++Replying to Buttmunch's post below to save scroll space WHAT!?! Buttmunch is so cool though? He has so much flavor, keep them both actice and mod 1 fight a week :) Equipment: Streaker's outfit :heehee So what you're telling us is G. D. Bebit fights naked? LOL And he's carrying 8 lbs, not 7. Scrolls weight 0.1 each. |
| sloisel11-24-03, 01:55 AM | I'm making Buttmunch inactive. I've got a new active character, his name is G. D. Bébit. He is here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1471988#post1471988). That used to be Trom the Blue's character sheet, but Trom was inactive since his first fight ages ago, and now I've officially put him out of his misery. Love, Sébastien Loisel |
| fluiddragon11-24-03, 04:12 AM | Hey barrel, just read the fight, I guess niether Mo or myself predicted the others tactics well. Tough fight to run. One thing I noticed Gage has a dex of 18 so its +4 ac, with shield and cover the ac is 22 and in the early rounds you had ac 18. Other than that looks like a good match. expensive as hell but I was expecting that. |
| Irlina11-24-03, 05:31 AM | @Scroll DC: It has been discussed several times. In essence, no feats/attributs values/whatever aplly for them, just the minimum values for crafting them. They're great for buffing but terrible when it comes to save DC's. here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=113446&highlight=Problems+with+scrolls) @sloisel. Come on, noone wants to kill his grandpa! And where is Tatoo Focus from? |
| Moherajikuyx11-24-03, 06:17 AM | Originally posted by fluiddragon As a mod the more allies you are allowed to bring in the more complicated the fight. I certainly wouldn't want to mod a match with a druid, his animal companion, his cohort from leadership, his heavy warhorse, and all the monsters he will summon. These matches take alot longer to run than a typical dnd encounter, and all the steps are available to the world to see. It would be very difficult to mod, In a game it's different. I'm against bringing in more than 1 ally. -fd You're absolutely right. No way, BGs have 1 ally. Originally posted by MotherBast The DC for the sleep scroll should have been 11 you say? Forgive me if I'm making a griveious error, but I belive it should have been 15. 10 + 1 for a level 1 scroll and + 4 for the Intellegence modifier, which I am pretty sure you apply to scrolls. I have always done so, and If it is an error, it is an error I have been making for years. It is... :) We had quite a flame here about it, the final breakdown is here (http://pub36.ezboard.com/fgameschat19968frm12.showMessage?topicID =264.topic). Originally posted by Market_Share DOH! There goes me using augmented summoning on SM scrolls. But i can see the reason for the house-rule. It's not an house rule, actually. See above. |
| Moherajikuyx11-24-03, 07:16 AM | Why did the hawk refuse to follow the accurately prepared tactics? Did he have suicide intentions? Swarms never make attacks of opportunity, so the hawk is still alive, coz he never got hit. Though he's really really sorry to not have been able to commit suicide. He swears. Fly lets you raise at half speed. During the last rounds, Curu did nothing, maybe he forgot to be a mage, but he didn't forget to send you some anathems. But this really pisses me. With 18 int and 11 spellcraft, to be killed by a spectral hand with 2 magic missiles in mind is really ridiculous. 30 attacks. Bah! |
| Moherajikuyx11-24-03, 10:35 AM | - A character who wins initiative and runs towards the foe arrives in (x, +-3) which is at 15' of distance. - Shapechanging to an animal type means assuming the form of a standard MM manual animal, which is not capable of wearing anything: any slotted item melds into the animal form. - Snark, Rito's got 1600 gp too much :embarass: Remove his natural armor item, that's the last thing bought I think - Snark, I was looking the paladin in the SRD and there's nothing about non-standard mounts given for free. It shall be RPG stuff, not very much suitable to a CO thread. To not spoil Moonmoon, buy a pegasus as your normal mount, then declare it your paladin mount. You shall pay for it the first time, then revives would be free. The gold cost will be instead of the hazards a quest for a mount would give. I'll add this to the rules. (Darn how many rules :() |
| Jindl11-24-03, 11:06 AM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx - Shapechanging to an animal type means assuming the form of a standard MM manual animal, which is not capable of wearing anything: any slotted item melds into the animal form. Incorrect. The DMG and PHB both state clearly that magic items can be worn by any creature that has a proper appendige/digit/etc. Thus an eagle has a neck and can wear an amulet. A bear has digits and can wear a ring. Etc. Originally posted by Moherajikuyx - Snark, I was looking the paladin in the SRD and there's nothing about non-standard mounts given for free. It shall be RPG stuff, not very much suitable to a CO thread. To not spoil Moonmoon, buy a pegasus as your normal mount, then declare it your paladin mount. You shall pay for it the first time, then revives would be free. The gold cost will be instead of the hazards a quest for a mount would give. I'll add this to the rules. (Darn how many rules :() I disagree with this. The DMG is very clear about the rules for variant mounts. It is a class ability and costs nothing. Also, the idea of questing for a mount is a 3.0 relic. In 3.5 there is no questing for special mounts. The paladin merely summons one, and it is there. The drawback to having a more powerful mount, like a pegasus, is that it doesn't advance in power as quickly as the standard heavy warhorse. This is essentially the same as a druid having one of the more powerful animal companions (a dire bat compared to a riding dog.) There is nothing in the rules about a RP requirement or element in the choice of special mount or the use of more powerful special mounts. I think its fine as is. -Jindl EDIT: Sorry to be so disagreeable... |
| MadCowTemplate11-24-03, 11:09 AM | Noir vs. Faldion fight has been posted. I have been ineptly trying to prepare for moving, and have now entered crunch-time. Due to ... circumstances (certain people) this has been made much more complicated and last minute than planned. Thus, my time is limited. Not really any flavor-text in this battle, even though it was short. @MO: Also, (see above) I am requesting a one week leave of absence from moderating. I should be "finished" moving by the following week. I will post a notice as soon as my computer is up and running at my new place. I plan to update Lora tonight. |
| Moherajikuyx11-24-03, 11:18 AM | No problem: just talking. But then - the eagle has a neck? Try to put an amulet on a flying eagle. No way it stays. The head is smaller than the neck, it will drop. The same with the belt. The eagle has no waist: a smaller part of body where a closing item could fit. Even if it had, it would have no opposing thumbs, so it could not hold a scroll for sure. How can one decide what is possible and what is not? It's hard isn't it? Well the only way is to be as selective as possible: if there's any doubt, scrap it. In definitive, the only animals who could concievably wear stuff are the primates, and even then, headbands would be too different than from humanoids', and so on. Probably amulets and cloaks, but that's all. Note that what you're quoting is from "size and magic items", not from "type" or "form". Magic items don't adapt to different forms, only to different sizes. - about the nonstandard mount, darn, then it's not SRD stuff. I hate it. Well, if there are tables like the druid's then I guess it's ok. Are there? |
| Jindl11-24-03, 11:20 AM | @MCT - I think Faldion forgot to use his Mounted Combat feat to negate the damage from Noir's attacks on his horse... @Mo - Something I wanted to point out about Core 3.5 and the SRD. There are several things that are Core 3.5 and are not in the SRD. As we have discussed, the variant paladin mounts are in the 3.5 DMG but not in the SRD. Other examples are the githyanki and githzerai. Both of these monsters are in the 3.5 MM but are not in the SRD. Another example is the mind flayer. This famous beast is in the 3.5 MM, but is not in the SRD. The purpose of these examples is to make a single point: There are many things core 3.5 that are not in the SRD. Core 3.5 is the 3.5 PHB, the 3.5 DMG, and the 3.5 MM. The SRD is a mostly complete compilation of these three books. It is not the end-all, be-all of Core 3.5, however. I make this point because I see the rationale that "If it isn't in the SRD, its not core" being used a lot. And I think this is wrong. The MM, DMG, and PHB are the definition of Core 3.5, not the SRD. There are more examples as well of other things the SRD leaves out, but I think my examples above more than prove this point. -Jindl EDIT: Re: Wildshape and magic items, I'll have to get back to you when I have my books in front of me. Yet another example of the SRD missing crucial info... EDIT: Re: Other mounts for paladins, Yes they list clearly what the other mounts available are and what level a paladin must be to call that mount. I think there are like 7 other mounts listed, from levels 5-9. |
| Irlina11-24-03, 11:27 AM | @Mo + Jindl SRD? What does this mean or am I stupid? Or just the Internet changed from 3.0 to 3.5? An eagle can most likely not wear an amulet round his neck and a bear has AFAIK no digits just big claws. This brings me to another question: Alter Self allows you to change shape and define it within the limits of the new shape. So my question: Can I alter self to a new form and still use my old armor (let's say for example Plate Mail which must be made for one person) by saying the new form is "formfitted" enough? |
| Moherajikuyx11-24-03, 11:28 AM | Yes, I agreed in the previous post :D I'll check the DMG too. I'm not going to buy it again... That's why I hate it. Wizards people told us that the changes would have been completely covered by the SRD. Liars! *edit* Irlina - yes, it's covered in the Alter Self spell. If the new form has the same slots, then it's possible. And Jindl, I'm not saying that no item is possible as animals: crows could probably wear rings on the talons for example. But, moderators shall be really really strict about it. |
| Jindl11-24-03, 11:34 AM | @ All (esp Mo + Irlina): First off, eagles do have necks. Their heads are larger than their necks, don't let the feathers fool you. A bear does have digits, even if there are claws at the end of them. I can attest personally to both these statements (and more info can be found by looking on the internet.) That being said, to wear armor you must be in a humanoid or humanoid-shaped form. So from the animal kingdom - apes, baboons, dire apes are pretty much it. Maybe bears might qualify (they are somewhat humanoid-shaped, especially when standing on their hind legs.) But alter self doesn't give you animal forms. It only gives you the same type as you are... so humanoid for most characters. Therefore, yes you could continue to wear your armor. The spell adapts your armor to fit if the form is suitable. BTW: The SRD is the portion of the Core 3.5 books that has been opened up through the Open Gaming License for other companies to use (ie. its the stuff that is exempt from copyright.) A lot of this stuff is spelled out in the books, but not in the SRD... -Jindl |
| sloisel11-24-03, 11:47 AM | Originally posted by Irlina @sloisel. Come on, noone wants to kill his grandpa! And where is Tatoo Focus from? DMG194. Sébastien Loisel |
| MotherBast11-24-03, 12:29 PM | So I was wrong. I apoligize Irlina. My bad. So I guess this means you can't make Metamagic scrolls either, since you can't apply feats to scrolls you make..... that really blows.... what a terrable rule. |
| barrel_master11-24-03, 12:30 PM | Ha ha... thank you for you simpathies Snark, Tellish and Fluid... but as moh pointed out I made several errors. Hummm... I'll try to explain the swarm thing to the best of my ability and, of course, if I'm blatantly wrong about something or if I should have done something else, tell me. My basic concern about the swarms was that they would come after you instead of the bird as they follow the closest creature. 1: I sent the bird out 60feet and cast the swarm between Cur and the bird and then moved cur back 30 feet. That would place you all at (with a point of reference from the swarm) -30 bird 0 swarm 60 Cur 2: I then moved Cur back as far as the arena would allow. Unfortunately, that would only put you 80 feet away from the swarm and as such I thought it would be best (again, I could very well be wrong) if the bird stay closer as to attract the swarm. -80 bird 0 swarm 80 Cur Then the swarm had a choice between the bird and you so I choose the bird. 0 bird 0 swarm 160 Cur You're right Moh there were errors and I apoligize for making them. |
| Jindl11-24-03, 01:41 PM | Originally posted by MotherBast So I guess this means you can't make Metamagic scrolls either, since you can't apply feats to scrolls you make..... that really blows.... what a terrable rule. Yes, you can. But the scroll is crafted at the metamagicked level, and the minimun caster level is based upon what is needed too cast the metamagicked version of the spell. For example: Empowered burning hands. This is a 3rd level spell, so it takes a 5th level caster. So the scroll must be as a 3rd level spell and 5th level caster minimum. That means: The cost is 5x3x25=375 gp. The spell does 5d4 x1.5 damage. The save DC is 10 +1(unmodified spell level) + 1 (the minimum int mod to cast a 3rd level spell) = 12. Note: A regular burning hands scroll has a DC 10 +1 +0 = 11. Hope this example clears that up. -Jindl EDIT: Only metamagick feats can be built into a scroll. Feats like Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, and Augment Summoning cannot be built into the scrolls. EDIT2: Regarding Tatoo Focus, it says specifically that this feat should be used only in the Forgotten Realms, just like the Red Wizard PrC. As such, I assumed it was not available in the arena. What's everybody else's take on this? |
| Caterane11-24-03, 01:53 PM | @Snark: Clairaudience??? @Jindl: Secret page??? |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-24-03, 06:27 PM | Originally posted by Jindl EDIT2: Regarding Tatoo Focus, it says specifically that this feat should be used only in the Forgotten Realms, just like the Red Wizard PrC. As such, I assumed it was not available in the arena. What's everybody else's take on this? I think it's ok. There isn't anything saying where our characters come from. Mine come from Ket in the world of Greyhawk. That's my preference since i'm from Ontario, Canada and i play LG a lot. Our region is Ket and i love our flavor. Who knows where others come from. It's core, and i don't see a problem with it. But that's just my opinion. Tellish **EDIT** It Faldion's fight, shouldn't Faldion have automatically spotted Noir as he went behind the cover and Noir had nowhere to hide? Just checking. |
| Caterane11-24-03, 06:35 PM | Shield`s back online! @Jindl: Did you get my reply to your mail? I`m not sure because my email program said something about errors. @all: Mo`s right about the fight delay. It`s nearly tuesday and there are still fights outstanding. If one reads his fight on tuesday evening or even wednesday there might be no time to update the character - not to mention buy stuff according to the gladiators in your league. So please, try to finish them on time or retire a character. |
| fluiddragon11-24-03, 06:35 PM | What is the tatto focus feat and what does it do? Its not in the SRD, at least not that I can find it. ANd what are the prereqs? -fd |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-24-03, 06:42 PM | Originally posted by fluiddragon What is the tatto focus feat and what does it do? Its not in the SRD, at least not that I can find it. ANd what are the prereqs? -fd p.104 dmg only real pre-req is you need to be a specialized wizard. Benefit: Add +1 to the DC for all saving throws against spells from your specialized school. You get +1 bonus to caster lvl checks to overcome a creature's spell resistance when casting spells from that school. And it does stack with spell focus. Tellish **EDIT** Frustrated a little. I just looked back through about 20 pages of post but can't find where the poison discussion was. Are the DC's to craft poison based on the save DC's of the poison itself, or did we just agree to an arbitrary DC 25 as such is the nature of poisons? I spend and will be spending a lot on poisons in the future and any suggestions or answers to this would be greatly appreciated. |
| MotherBast11-24-03, 06:44 PM | Ok, so metamagics can be used with scrolls. It makes sense that they can be, but now I must ask the obvious question, why can you apply a metamagic feat to a scroll, and not any other type of feat? Knowing my luck it probably says somewhere in the feats section, in big bold print METAMAGIC FEATS CAN BE APLLIED TO SCROLLS and I'm just to lazy to go look. But now that I know I was wrong about the scrolls, in Candy's last fight, she used a scroll of vent, and one of silent Image. Her opponit failed his save against both. I don't think they were DC 11's either..... Probably would not have made a difference as it was a self cast sleep that one the fight, but this is the last time Candy will every by any scroll with a save DC I tell ya that. EDIT: Just read the last fight, and wanted to point out, you can't use hide if you don't have cover from your foe. When the mount moved around the rock, he should have seen the monk. Not that it matters, since he won, but there it is. |
| Moherajikuyx11-24-03, 08:13 PM | barrel, so you didn't even read my tactics... MB, the difference is that applying a metamagic scroll is something the writer can do, and it adds to cost. If writers could write their normal feats on scrolls why would anyone go to buy a scroll from a caster without spell focus? Regarding this... I must insist on the fact that metamagicked scrolls are not listed among the standard items. |
| SnarkHunter11-24-03, 08:23 PM | No Mo they are not. For that matter, the 5th level scrolls of shocking graps and whatt have you are not listed either. However I had assumed that given the extensive customizability of scrolls (something btw, explicitly supported by the rules, as opposed unfortunatly, to wonderous Items) finding a particular style would not be overly difficult. Still if we were to limit possible specilized scrolls to only ones that the caster can creat, I would have no problem with that. If that s they way it was supposed to be all along...oops :angel:. @cat: Clauraudiance was so's I could create eyes of the eagle at a slight discount. I think I saved like...300 gold? Not much anyway. @fighters; I need to finish a paper, send it to a prof and pack to leave. Dispite these duties I vow to finish the fights assigned to me, or die in the attempt. Assuming the later does not come to pass, you can expect them in ~6 hours. Tah tah! |
| fluiddragon11-24-03, 08:43 PM | I don't think that adding METAMAGIC to scrolls is unbalancing, for the following reasons: 1. You have to pay extra for them. If you want an extended mage armor it will cost 50 gold instead of 25 gold. 2. It is not really any different than buying a scroll of mage armor caster level 2 still 50gp. 3. It is supported by the rules, and doesn't change things a bit as far as balance, as you pay for a scroll buy its caster level which is raised by applying metamagic. Metamagic is a much different ball of wax than compared to augment summoning, or spell focus and similar feats. The other feats don't add to the spell level to cast and thus there is no way to compensate for the increase in power. Spell focus is similar to a hieghtened spell. If you want a higher save then buy a scroll with Heighten Feat on it at the caster level you want. There is a trade off with scrolls, you have great access to any spell you want at a very reasonable cost. The down side is that all the DC's are very low. If you want to cast tonns of spells be a sorcerer. I get around this with Gage by using scrolls for defense and buff's and leave my offense to my spells. I also get around DC's in general by learning spells that have no save. Thats why I didn't bother to learn Goul Touch. It has a save and its a fort save. I'd want this spell for use against fighters and it caters to their defense, so I didn't take it. I'll wait for vampric touch. So all in all I don't think adding METAMAGIC to scrolls is a big deal because you have to pay for it. The other feats that effect spells do not have any cost associated with them and are thus off limits, sort of like certain mounts in the MM. Some monsters have a cost listed, and you can buy those. But some do not and therefore you cannot buy them, as there is no way in the core rules to assign a price to them its a DM call, like custom items. So Yea for metamagic on scrolls and Nea for other feats on scrolls. -fd |
| MotherBast11-24-03, 08:46 PM | MO, I understand that Metamagic feat can be added to scrolls, my question is, Why can a Metamagic feat be added, but none of the casters other feats/abilites are? As far as someone buying a scroll from someone without spell focus, since we have already established that all scrolls purchased are without any caster motifacation, the reason is because it isen't possible. But a better question is why would a caster buy Any scroll with a save DC. All first level scrolls would be DC 11, Second level scrolls DC 13, Third DC 14...... you get the idea.... the same spells cast by themselves are 3 or 5 points higher at these low levels. At high levels it really is pointless. As I said before though, I understand the reasioning behind purchesed scrolls. Its sooooo much simpler to assume all at at minium requirements, than to account for all the varation that could exist in there creation. My big beef is in why a caster dosen't get to apply his own stat mod and his own feats to scroll HE creates. It simply dosen't make any sense that he dosen't create the scroll to the best of his abilites. I'm not arguing the rule here, as I still am not sure what rule this is based on. My argument is more that the rule shouldn't exist, since it makes so little sense. I'm not sugesting a house rule, just saying its a crappy rule in the game. My question now is, why does whatever rule that prevents a caster from adding feats to his scrolls not prevent the same caster from adding Metamagic to his scrolls, since they are all feats? And Tellish: You have created quite the anti-monk there, and anti-touch attack caster too for that matter. I must admit, I am quite firghtened, but non the less, my retort to your new storyline can be found partly on Brackin's sheet, in the form of his now updated storyline, and on the roleplay thread, where I'm sure I have made a terrable mistake by challenging you. |
| Market_Share11-24-03, 09:31 PM | Originally posted by Caterane @Snark: Clairaudience??? @Jindl: Secret page??? I'm assuming Clairaudience is to make eyes of the eagle and Secret Page is to make boccob's blessed book. Unless i'm overlooking some devious tactic. SPIKE |
| Market_Share11-24-03, 09:41 PM | Originally posted by MotherBast As I said before though, I understand the reasioning behind purchesed scrolls. Its sooooo much simpler to assume all at at minium requirements, than to account for all the varation that could exist in there creation. My big beef is in why a caster dosen't get to apply his own stat mod and his own feats to scroll HE creates. It simply dosen't make any sense that he dosen't create the scroll to the best of his abilites. I'm not arguing the rule here, as I still am not sure what rule this is based on. My argument is more that the rule shouldn't exist, since it makes so little sense. I'm not sugesting a house rule, just saying its a crappy rule in the game. I think i can answer this one. It's not a house rule. As my understanding of scroll creation, it specifically says that all scrolls have minimum caster lvl/saves NO MATTER WHO CREATED THEM. And i think those are the important key words. You can craft scrolls with meta-magic feats in them, but if they are save-required scrolls, they will still have the minimum required. The use of focuses and augments on scrolls is also a no go. I don't think they house-ruled it as under casting scrolls it says you can't apply them. I wasn't around for their initial discussion but, like i said, i don't think they house-ruled it. I'm pretty sure that's they way it's supposed to be. Wish i had my books handy, i'd find you the references. @Tellish: Hurtz's Touch AC 31!!!!! dooood, that's insane. LOL On the subject of crafting poisons. There is no contingency in 3.5 core for crafting them. You can take craft(poisonmaking) but since there are no set DC's for poisons, i'm assuming you can't make them. I could be wrong though. @ all moderators: Those are some awesome fights i'm reading. I only hope that by the time i get up there, i'll be able to challenge you all and do justice to some great fights. SPIKE |
| fluiddragon11-24-03, 09:50 PM | Hurtz went from being one of the least optimized characters to one of the best. Wow what a transformation. I can't wait not to fight him! lol |
| Magagumo11-24-03, 10:25 PM | Hmm, yea, I apologize for taking this long to respond, but it does seem Jindl has covered everything, Cat. BTW, I apologize for the misread on Alter Self (I read Polymorph and simply assumed Alter Self worked in a similar way, only with a HD and type restriction). Secondly, on noting what items can be worn, the 3.5 polymorph states that items do not automatically meld into your new form, you get to pick and choose what you keep on you. Thsi being said, magic items also grow/shrink to fit the wearer, so rings on talons and amulets around anything with a neck do work. Bracers are generally also exceptible (wrap around forelimbs or legs), as are cloaks, robes, headbands (usually), belts (except perhaps on fliers), lenses, vests (not sure, again, about flyers). Gloves, gauntlets, and boots are are generally not going to work. |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-24-03, 10:28 PM | Least optimized? Not sure how to take that LOL. j/k But maybe, it's all part of delayed gratification. I knew my first 4 levels were gonna be tough to get. This isn't knocking any other builds, but i some of the more "Optimized" builds as you put it petering out after awhile. Their power-curves will drop a bit or stay flat whereas mine only gets higher. There are some builds that i see that i really like though that have a lot of potential. Ya have to remember that i started at 0-3 becauase i blew all my resources in my first fight against elder only to have forgotten that familiars are magical beasts and was promptly put to sleep despite my decent will save. I had to fight with just a scimitar, 4 bolas, and a net. I think that's a testament in of itself. And I won't recall the horror tale of my major loss since going 0-3. And against Tomar, i just didn't give him any tactics, i was really busy that week. Thx for the compliments on Hurtz. He's come a long way. Tellish @Market: i couldn't find anything either. But before i just give up on the idea of making poisons i wanna see what other view points there are. @MB: EDIT:erased original text. I accept the challenge. Only one condition is that we don't edit our characters from this point on. I won't be here for announcement of the pairings and won't know who our judge is. Thus i'm doing my tactics up now and sending them to MO tonight. I'll have to read wether i won or loss i guess on Monday when i get back. @Mag(post below) Yeha, i think i'm stuck buying them. :( It's gonna get expensive lemme tell ya. |
| Magagumo11-24-03, 10:34 PM | Poisons are a tricky business.. I believe Song and Silence touched upon Craft DCs but those is obviously 3.0 non-core. On another note, I will be running the other fight now, and have updated Bruno and Noir. As I am going home for Thanksgiving tomorrow, I really won't be able to run any fights. Thusly, I believe I will only have Noir fight (unless he is ousted by a die roll, then I will have Zorander fight instead). I will have access to email at home, but no books, so i think just one of these (fairly) simple characters will be enough.. Fight's all done, got to love the low-level ones. In the end, luck wins or loses the fight. |
| sshuit11-24-03, 11:40 PM | Hypothetical Questions. I was thinking of min/maxing a straight up rogue for Arena. Just a few questions. re : Sleight of Hand : Would I be allowed to steal items from other players?... if so... I'm assuming I would not be allowed to keep them after the match :) However would I be able to swipe and then drink potions? / cast scrolls? What about swiping a potion and replacing it with a vial of poison? that would be two standard actions? or just one? Just hoping to address the lack of straight-up rogues in the arena at present. sshuit |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-25-03, 12:17 AM | Originally posted by sshuit re : Sleight of Hand : Would I be allowed to steal items from other players?... if so... I'm assuming I would not be allowed to keep them after the match :) However would I be able to swipe and then drink potions? / cast scrolls? sshuit You would not be allowed to keep them, but ya can consume anything consumable. All the modifiers for sleight of hand observed are in the phb i think. So ya, go for it. It would be interesting to see. If you're a straight up rogue, you'll have to decipher the scroll before it can be used though. I don't think you can activate scrolls blindly. Once deciphered, make a UMD check to cast. But other than that, ya go for it. It would be interesting to see. Sleight of hand isn't an attack roll, so if ya drank a pot of invis, you could buff yourself at his expense. Tellish **EDIT** I was bored and started reading some of the old fights before i came in. I noticed something very interesting. "A half-dozen of another" the Heavy Warhorse (my animal companion) I don't see Heavy Warhorse under animal companion lists to you Jindl? LOL And you advance it later on, man that thing had some killer stats after a few lvls. |
| Draloth11-25-03, 12:17 AM | Thanks for running the fight. I dont know if anybody else has noted it-but Dorrin is wearing heavy armor, as such the speed bonus from barbarian does not apply. |
| Caterane11-25-03, 04:29 AM | Originally posted by Magagumo In the end, luck wins or loses the fight. I hate when you say this :twitch: But Mag, it`s ok about the fight. I`ll fare better this week. |
| Prexx11-25-03, 05:30 AM | Originally posted by Irlina @Mo + Jindl SRD? What does this mean or am I stupid? Or just the Internet changed from 3.0 to 3.5? This is a reply from a post a little while back. I'm not sure if you have already recieved an answer Irlina. But maybe it will clear things up for people. SRD stands for System Reference Document. It is a portion of the rules for the D20 system, specificly pertaining to D&D that has been opened to the public under the Open Gaming License(OGL). The rules presented there are mainly for use with D&D, but can be used as general guidelines for any roleplaying game using the D20 system. You can find the SRD here (http://www.wizards.com/D20/article.asp?x=srd35). You can find the OGL here (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/OGLv1.0a.rtf). |
| Prexx11-25-03, 07:25 AM | Originally posted by fluiddragon I don't think that adding METAMAGIC to scrolls is unbalancing, for the following reasons: 1. You have to pay extra for them. If you want an extended mage armor it will cost 50 gold instead of 25 gold. I'm probably just being excessively critical. But, an extended mage armor would be a 2nd level spell, and thus would require a minimum caster level of 3. So a scroll of Extended Mage Armor would cost at least 150 gold, and would have a minimum duration of six hours. |
| Moherajikuyx11-25-03, 07:53 AM | Originally posted by Magagumo Secondly, on noting what items can be worn, the 3.5 polymorph states that items do not automatically meld into your new form, you get to pick and choose what you keep on you. Actually, this is not true, When the change occurs, your equipment, if any, either remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item), or melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. You don't pick. Originally posted by Magagumo Thsi being said, magic items also grow/shrink to fit the wearer, so rings on talons and amulets around anything with a neck do work. Bracers are generally also exceptible (wrap around forelimbs or legs), as are cloaks, robes, headbands (usually), belts (except perhaps on fliers), lenses, vests (not sure, again, about flyers). Gloves, gauntlets, and boots are are generally not going to work. This is all ok, if the items are worn after the shapechange. You see, it is written that the items adapt to the wearer when he wears them, not that they adapt to any spell he does upon itself. It's quite different. Of course in a normal campaign this would be not important - but here, we've got to consider all the time as an essential resource. So, items will fit different sizes only for characters coming in polymorphed, and thus writing it on the sheet. The items worn after the poly will have to be written too. This way everyone will be able to check them out: discussion is heavely needed for this. For the polys occuring during the fight, the dm will have to be really wary of allowing things like those you said. I will never permit a bracer of armor to go from the wrists to the forelegs, for example: nowhere it says it does, either in the spell nor in the magic items description. About the scrolls, I'll open a poll about it, as it seems there is popular demand: till next week, don't buy metamagiked scrolls or different CL scrolls than written in the rules. (note: some wands already are sold in different CLs, so we'll not permit that for wands too). |
| Pitlords11-25-03, 08:02 AM | Vote open http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=114957 Note to the new people: everyone has to post a single time in that thread. To vote, edit the first post, don't post again: this will be simpler for me... Thanks :) |
| Jindl11-25-03, 10:32 AM | Well, having been gone only 24 hours, I am surprised at how much I have to say. Seems like there are lots of different conversations going on, and I am about to butt in on a bunch of them. Here's the first: RE: Swarms (Especially for @ Barrel_master) - Swarms do not threaten, do not make normal attacks, and cannot make attacks of opportunity. Effectively, their only method of attack is an area of effect attack. They do not roll to hit, they cannot make an attack of opportunity (repeating this again), and they are subject to normal effects that would counter a summoned creature of their type (animal or vermin, as appropriate, such as protection from evil, hide from animals, repel vermin, etc.) This has been run incorrectly before, and I hope everyone is reading this now. Swarms are dangerous opponents as is, and if played incorrectly they can be nearly unstoppable. Please review the rules on swarms if you are a mod. RE: Tatoo Focus + Red Wizard - What I was trying to point out was that the DMG says specifically that this feat and PrC are subject to DM approval and generally shouldn't be used outside the FR. The listed reason for this is not fluffy campaign stuff, but because (and it says this specifically) they are not appropriate in power compared to other standard PrC's and feats. The DMG says they are unbalanced if not used in an FR setting. That's why I was questioning whether it should be allowed in the Arena. RE: Cat's emails - I only got the first one, about your discussion with Mo on the topic of monster duels. RE: Craft Poison DC's - It's clearly stated on pg 1 of the Builds thread (in the arena rules) that the DC's to make poison are 10 + the save DC for that poison. So the DC to make drow sleep poison is 10 +12 = 22. I think this is pretty high, but that is the rule Mo came up with a long time ago. As a result, you may just want to buy poison instead of dedicating so many skill points to making it. RE: Candy's previous scroll usage - I ran Candy's last fight, and she did use scrolls of ventriloquism + others. I used the standard scroll DC's in the fight (DC 11 for ventriloquism.) If you have any ?'s please re-read that fight, as the appropriate DC's are clearly listed when the opponent attempts his save. RE: @ Tellish - Yes, Jindl had an illegal animal companion for 3 fights. I didn't know it, and neither did the mods or my opponents. It's one of the many things I have learned about Druids in this arena. But, it was determined that since his companion did not play a decisive role in any of the previous fights, that the companion would be corrected and proceed as normal. Dozen was a cool animal companion, even after he became a heavy horse. RE: Scrolls and wands with different CL's and Metamagicks- I thought the arena rules said pretty clearly that you can buy scrolls and wands for any spell, not just the ones listed in the DMG. Since the rules are very clear about adding metamagic to scroll and creating scrolls and wands at higher CL's, I thought it was pretty clear that these items could be purchased with these changes. A metamagic spell on a scroll is purchased as if it were a higher level spell -> as fluid (and I previously) said, it is way more expensive than the unmetamagicked version. Same goes with caster level. This is not something that we need to make up or rule upon. It is clearly in the core rules. Why would we disallow higher CL on wands/scrolls when the core rules explicitly say this can be done and lists examples of these items for sale and on the treasure tables? I don't understand why this is being debated, it seems pretty straightforward that it is allowed in a core game. But, if we must vote, you all know how I'll be voting... RE: Magic Item slots + polymorph/wildshape - Unfortunately, I have not been home in a couple of days, and have been unable to look for the passages in my DMG, PHB, and MM. But each of these books do include some rules about non-humanoids using items as appropriate for their forms, about the caster deciding if he wants to keep or meld an item that could be worn (items that can't be worn in the new form automatically meld), and about the fact that the spell changes the item to fit the new form (its not an effect of the item, but of the form-changing spell.) When I do get home, I'll try to quote these passages... RE: Pairings this week - For many of us, Thanksgiving is going to disrupt our schedules and take up our time over this weekend. I was going to suggest that we postpone pairings one week for the holiday. Regardless, I will post the Candy vs Kern fight today (even though Kukanil never sent me any tactics). Also, I am considering having the Elder sit out this week (Jindl is already sitting out due to no opponents available). I am waiting to see if Tomah won his fight before making this decision. My reason is that I will not be able to mod a fight during this holiday weekend, and therefore I can only have 1 character active this round. If pairings are postponed, then I have no reason for the Elder to sit out. Please consider postponing the next round until after Thanksgiving. -Jindl |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-25-03, 01:56 PM | Originally posted by Jindl RE: @ Tellish - Yes, Jindl had an illegal animal companion for 3 fights. I didn't know it, and neither did the mods or my opponents. It's one of the many things I have learned about Druids in this arena. But, it was determined that since his companion did not play a decisive role in any of the previous fights, that the companion would be corrected and proceed as normal. Dozen was a cool animal companion, even after he became a heavy horse. -Jindl I was just teasing ya. :D Tellish |
| Caterane11-25-03, 02:03 PM | @Jindl: So? What`dya think 'bout it? |
| Jindl11-25-03, 02:13 PM | Originally posted by Caterane @Jindl: So? What`dya think 'bout it? The idea of monster fights is intruiging. I think there is a lot of promise there, but its gonna need to be worked on, to come up with the right CR and such. Perhaps a CR of lvl+2 for a solo match. CR of lvl+4 for two vs 1 monster. etc. Can you imagine if Moon-moon and Jindl teamed up... Jindl airwalks+wildshapes into a super mount, that Moon-moon can ride and charge upon, while Jindl continues throwing spells. Ouch! -Jindl |
| barrel_master11-25-03, 02:15 PM | http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1925029#post1925029 Tomah vs stinky Ha ha, tomah reminds me of Ajax. |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-25-03, 03:03 PM | I wanna comment on the fight if i may? 1. First thing i see is Tomah didn't run to be 70' from him as said in his tactics. 2. Ya can't draw a potion while moving, only weapons or things for attack. We've done this incorrectly in the past and it needs to be corrected. 3. in round 3, you say Tomah is taking cover...Tomah is at (-1,3). He's out in the open, 15' away from any cover. No cover bonus would be granted as Stinky had perfect line of sight. 4. Next round Tomah double moved to be beside Stinky? Tomah only has a 40' move and even a double move only puts him at (-3,-12), that gives Stinky another shot. And we've all see what just one extra roll can do. 5. You had Stinky withdraw to draw his longsword? Why? He can just draw and attack without provoking anything. But even besides that, Stink's tactics are to draw longsword only if Tomah was invisible (or unseen to Stinky), he should have 5' back and shoot on the defensive. 6. Stinky's tactics say to shoot on the defensive when engaged with melee with Tomah, that never happened. Mostly because he was busy drink pots at the time, but the sword should never have been drawn in the first place. Not trying to pick on Barrel Master, we all appreciate ppl taking time to mod fights, but this is a lot of oversights for a small fight. If those errors were made in a heavier fight with the rolls being closer, you'd have a very different outcome. If i'm wrong in anything i've mentioned up there, such as maybe you just wrote down the wrong positions (but they fit with his movement) than accept my humblest apolagies. Again, not trying to be mean or pick on one particular fight, but as i was reading it, i just saw all that and felt it needed to be mentioned. Tellish **EDIT** ****EDIT**** off topic stuff. deleted. |
| Jindl11-25-03, 04:07 PM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket Night Hag on her Nightmare mount (not even CR 11) but she can stay ethereal and MM u at will untill dead. buwhahaha This is kinda off topic for the arena, but you can't affect material targets while ethereal (not even with magic missle or force effects.) That's why blink has a miss chance for the caster. Ethereal is different from incorporeal. Also I was talking about 1 monster (ie., CR not EL). And any monsters would be subject to the same rules as PC's. That means if they spend more than 10 rounds "out of the arena" by becoming ethereal, then they lose. Also, don't underestimate what the druid can do if he knows what he is gonna fight. Summon Natures Ally can produce a lot of interesting effects... -Jindl |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-25-03, 04:23 PM | Your right, it's off topic. No more from me. I never underestimate the druid. IMO one of the most powerful straight up classes. I was only giving my opinion from a scenario writer's prespective that it's gonna be a hell of a fight. "A force effect originating on the Material Plan extends onto the Ethereal Plan, so that a wall of foce blocks an etheral creature, and magic missle can strike one." I just assumed it worked in the reverse. My bad . Tellish |
| Jindl11-25-03, 05:26 PM | @Tellish - I meant that I was going off topic in explaining how ethereal attacks vs the material plane don't work. @MotherBast, Kukanil, and Moherajikuyx - I've posted a synopsis of the fight. Please note that Kukanil didn't update his character sheet after last weeks fight, nor did he send me tactics. Kern should prolly be moved to the inactive list until Kuk replies. Candy won via invis+ventrilo+silent image+sleep+CDG (failed fort save). Kern used sanctuary (candy passed her save) and then buffed 3 rounds before attempting to attack the silent image. Candy then slept and killed him. -Jindl |
| MotherBast11-25-03, 05:29 PM | Ok, Tellish, I accept your conditions to my challange. I had concidered buying some dust of appearence, but I'll wait till next week on that. I look foward to this fight very much, though I see myself as having little chance, as by the time we actually start fighting, you should be neigh impossible to hit. Of course, It wont be so easy for you to hit me either. As far as the scroll thing goes. I finally got un-lazy and looked it up. Any arguments I had are withdrawn, but I still think Its a crappy set of rules, even if they are in the book. EDIT: OK, new question with Candy. If I take suggestion, could I use it to suggest my opponits surrender? If they surrender because of the spell, do I win? |
| stinkygoblin11-25-03, 05:54 PM | I guess i wasn't as clear as i should of been about this. i will be clearer next time. why didn't stinky feint? why did stinky just stand there and go toe to toe with tomah. anyway, i guess i learned a lesson. the next time i will be clearer with my tactics. i appreciate all of mods taking time to run these fights. |
| sshuit11-25-03, 06:11 PM | Originally posted by MotherBast EDIT: OK, new question with Candy. If I take suggestion, could I use it to suggest my opponits surrender? If they surrender because of the spell, do I win? How about if someone casts Ventriloquism and makes it SOUND like you surrender? :D That's pure cheese. I would say no. |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-25-03, 06:18 PM | Originally posted by MotherBast EDIT: OK, new question with Candy. If I take suggestion, could I use it to suggest my opponits surrender? If they surrender because of the spell, do I win? I would say No. I can't quote anything specifics as far as arena rules go, other than the general, it's the 'last man standing' rule. First to -10 loses. Here's my take on the spell itself. Since right after saying, "I surrender." the spell ends and you now have a very irrate opponent there. Both are still standing there, and he's free to take a swipe at ya. A very reasonable suggestion would be to have your opponent stand around and help buff your for, lets say 9 rds (keeping to the 10rds out of the fight, equals auto-loss). Once you buff for 9rds or whatever, you simply attack him, flat-footed of course, and the fight continues where it left off. Obviously you are now at a HUGE advantage. The only reason i say NO to auto-surrender is i when i first made my rogue, i was initially thinking of going ultra-high charisam with things like Negotiator/Persuasive and skill focus:bluff/diplomacy with ranks in Profession:Lawyer and at the beginning of the fight, alter my opponents attitude to friendly if possible, and bluff the judge that he's actually an escaped criminal and should be locked up. Providing "forged" documents if needed. Funny as it sounded at the time, i didn't think it would have been allowed in the arena for pure cheese purposes above and beyond the mental retardation of the concept. So i just stuck with the stealth build. Originally posted by stinkygoblin I guess i wasn't as clear as i should of been about this. i will be clearer next time. why didn't stinky feint? why did stinky just stand there and go toe to toe with tomah. anyway, i guess i learned a lesson. the next time i will be clearer with my tactics. i appreciate all of mods taking time to run these fights. Something specific like feinting would have to be specified in your tactics. I think your tactics were pretty clear, they just didn't get followed. Sometimes mistakes happen and we have to live with it. Good or bad. You also didn't have any conditions set for healing, yet the Mod utilized your resources anyhow. Try to include a break-point in which you heal in your tactics. This will make it clearer to the mod when and when not to use them. Tellish |
| fluiddragon11-25-03, 07:01 PM | Dragon Rain and Gage are ready for the next round. I can mod 1 difficult match this week or 2 easy ones. I might retire Xaverr not sure yet. I think his build will be powerfull, but he hasn't really inspired me yet. As far as I know he is the only other spiked chain build besides Alathalar, and is going in a different direction. I'm not sure if Buttmunch is going to be around, I hope he changed his mind I wanted a rematch. -fd |
| SnarkHunter11-25-03, 07:03 PM | Hello everyone, I finished the fight ~12 hours ago, and then the internet at my university went and melted down. Drat the luck. In anycase I think I have a disk hanging around somewhere with the fight on it, if not I'll post it next week. In short; Edit: Read about it here! (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1927752#post1927752) Well if Bruno's out then there's going to be an unequal pairing at 7th level. Since I've got three I guess that means Bilo sits this one out. Moon-moon and Hanz are active though. |
| cellardweller11-25-03, 10:51 PM | Originally posted by Jindl For many of us, Thanksgiving is going to disrupt our schedules and take up our time over this weekend. I was going to suggest that we postpone pairings one week for the holiday. I am happy to run up to 4 fights this round to allow our american friends to enjoy their holiday. Email: cyberknight (at) thevortex.com And yes I am proud of my nerdiness ;) |
| sshuit11-25-03, 11:18 PM | Roger is ready for next round. I'm actually thinking of retiring him as he seems woefully unoptimized at the moment. I also have ready now, Voliana, a much more optimized and fun character. Straight up skills monster rogue. sneaky-sneaky! I would be happy to moderate again this week. Maybe a level 5 fight this time? sshuit |
| sloisel11-25-03, 11:56 PM | Originally posted by Magagumo Secondly, on noting what items can be worn, the 3.5 polymorph states that items do not automatically meld into your new form, you get to pick and choose what you keep on you. Thsi being said, magic items also grow/shrink to fit the wearer, so rings on talons and amulets around anything with a neck do work. Yes, and so it's unclear exactly what happens, and I hope they will clarify it in an erratum, when you are wearing a non-wild armor. If you get to keep it on, there's less need of a wild armor. Since armor resizes itself to the wearer, and by some reasoning, would still be able to fit you if you wildshape, I'm not sure the liberal interpretation of polymorph is entirely accurate. I'm tempted to think that, like "protection vs evil", this is a misphrasing of the (admittedly sinuous) chain of descriptions for wildshape and polymorph. Sébastien Loisel |
| sloisel11-26-03, 12:09 AM | This is just a reminder for the roster, that Buttmunch is inactive and G. D. Bébit is my new active character. Sébastien Loisel |
| Tellish_of_Ket11-26-03, 02:18 AM | Ok, i'm gone until Monday, but i leave ya'll with a Gyft (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1930838#post1930838) If he can be critiqued and verified for accuracy that'd be much appreciated. Either PM me or E-mail me if there's something wrong. I won't be reading the boards until very late Sunday. Have a good week of duels. And whoever's fight i'm running, i'll run it Sunday late night and post it Monday'ish. Tellish |
| Moherajikuyx11-26-03, 02:29 AM | I'll post the pairings late today, to give people time to edit the sheets. Happy tacts! :) |
| MadCowTemplate11-26-03, 03:35 AM | @MO: Lora is READY |
| Market_Share11-26-03, 03:37 AM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket I wanna comment on the fight if i may? 1. First thing i see is Tomah didn't run to be 70' from him as said in his tactics. 2. Ya can't draw a potion while moving, only weapons or things for attack. We've done this incorrectly in the past and it needs to be corrected. 3. in round 3, you say Tomah is taking cover...Tomah is at (-1,3). He's out in the open, 15' away from any cover. No cover bonus would be granted as Stinky had perfect line of sight. 4. Next round Tomah double moved to be beside Stinky? Tomah only has a 40' move and even a double move only puts him at (-3,-12), that gives Stinky another shot. And we've all see what just one extra roll can do. 5. You had Stinky withdraw to draw his longsword? Why? He can just draw and attack without provoking anything. But even besides that, Stink's tactics are to draw longsword only if Tomah was invisible (or unseen to Stinky), he should have 5' back and shoot on the defensive. 6. Stinky's tactics say to shoot on the defensive when engaged with melee with Tomah, that never happened. Mostly because he was busy drink pots at the time, but the sword should never have been drawn in the first place. ACK! I hope my fights don't get run like that. No offense to the guy who ran it of course. But i do know that's it's gonna happen at some point, so just for future's notes, i probably won't be complaining much if a fight of mine is turned butchered beyond recogniztion. I understand there are many RL factors that come into play and it's probably easier than i think to get sidetracked while running a fight, so i won't judge in advance. I may judge afterwards, but not in advance. :D j/k Looking forward to this weeks pairings and good luck to all the gladiators out there. Keeps your saddles straight and your swords sharp but most of all, don't fail that concentration check with a great axe aimed at your head. SPIKE EDIT: Hey, can i use a longbow now from the back of a mount? It couldn't be done in 3.0, just wondering if it's been changed as i can't find anything regarding that. An answer before pairings are announced would be MUCH appreciated thanks. SPIKE |
| Irlina11-26-03, 05:21 AM | One suggestion. I think it would be good to add to the fights's afterwards found out rule errors at the end of fight-sheet. This doesn't mean the result of the fights should be changed. It is just for future reference. If a mod is unsure about a rule and looks at old fights or someone reads the fights he can easily learn more about the rules or erros made. Perhaps this could help increasing rule-knowledge. |
| Moherajikuyx11-26-03, 08:48 AM | Irlina, that's a very good proposal (also because it doesn't raise my workload :D) I'm doing the pairings within 3 hours guys. We've got a new moderator... stinkygoblin! Yo! *edit* Spike: yes, it is explicitly stated in the equipment section. Speaking of bows, I just discovered that it is false that in 3.5 might bonus to composite bows may go above 2 (short-) and 4 (long-): it's a forgotten table in equipment. A composite longbow can be made with a high strength rating to take advantage of an above-average Strength score; this feature allows you to add your Strength bonus to damage, up to the maximum bonus indicated for the bow. The maximum bonus should be indicated in the equipment too; sadly it's indicated only on the magic armors & weapons tables. |
| Jindl11-26-03, 10:12 AM | I don't know if this will go through in time ... But Tomah the Iceman challenges the dwarven ball of metal, Dorrin. Wood and sinew shall destroy your fire and metal !! -Jindl PS: Also, the Elder is ready. Please only give me 1 fight to mod, at the most !! |
| SnarkHunter11-26-03, 10:23 AM | @Mo: OY! What ho old chum, before you do pairings please note the following changes. Bruno is sitting out, Zorander is sitting out-unless Noir is unpaired, Bilo is sitting out unless Moon-moon is not selected as the 8th level combatant in which case he's back in, and Hanz Vonnegut is reactivated! Thank you, Happy pairings! |
| Moherajikuyx11-26-03, 10:53 AM | Jindl - Draloth will have to reply. I'm leaving still 3 hours, there was big delay this week. We've got a lot of new moderators, so next one should be less problematic. Snark - after some denotational semanthics imp-reduction I think I got it. Ehm, sorry, I'm trying to stop but at the centre they don't accept engineers. *edit* I will not evaluate conditions like these during the pairings, if everyone begins doing them I'm done. I did what was more likely given the actual status. Please note that sheets going back from inactive have to be standard! :mage: I began to write boring notes on those who didn't standardize it too... I forgot to tell you how I appreciated your last fight (Rito-Mara): even though I lost, it was well ran. I'll remember to notify to not charge readied people :) The alabard is vicious, it's hard to remember it. Compliments. Anyways it was Rito, so... 4w, 9l... Argh... I'm thinking about monks in the arena. Druids are obviously better grapplers, what could the monks' strength be? ...Running? Mmhhh... |
| Market_Share11-26-03, 10:56 AM | Originally posted by Jindl I don't know if this will go through in time ... But Tomah the Iceman challenges the dwarven ball of metal, Dorrin. Wood and sinew shall destroy your fire and metal !! -Jindl PS: Also, the Elder is ready. Please only give me 1 fight to mod, at the most !! Now THAT is gonna be an awesome fight. Pre-fight commentating: Tomah, unfrozen from the recent heat wave in the arctic, is known far and large as "The Shillelagh Club Kid". Tonight, his oppoent, hails from the deep dwarven ruins of Codurde....Corrdunn...Cord...can you even pronounce this dang name? Anyways, let's give it up for "Power-AXE!" woo woo woo woo woo woo Each opponent capable of dealing massively greivious injuries. But i'm not sure about Power-AXE, Tom, it doesn't look like he's giving it his all. I think you're right Tim, Power-AXE is taking only a measily +5 to hit with that thing when he can easily hit for +7, +9 if he rages. I dunno, but it just doesn't look like he's into this thing. Cut him some slack Tom, maybe he's just trying to psyche out his opponent. Let him THINK he's got the upper hand. Maybe, but my money on the Shillelagh Club Kid, that's for sure. Gotta agree with ya there. 200 platinum on the S-C Kid! SPIKE |
| Jindl11-26-03, 11:03 AM | @ Moherajikuyx - Okay, hopefully Draloth can respond. If not, I challenge (MarketShare and Spike!!) Tomah just wants to thump some dwarves. As for the monk's strengths. It's the saves and super high touch ac's. Monks should be able to slaughter mages, especially as the monk increases in level (ie. gets the $ for good equip.) It's not fair comparing them to druids (because we all know that druid's are better than everything ;) ) Seriously though, I think the monk comes into his own once his gets to 8th or 9th level and flurry begins to build in power. When they hit 13th and get SR, watch out. You'll note that none of the casters are taking spell penetration. As for touch AC, Rito should be able to get a 25 touch AC, without too much problem. That's hard to beat. In the least, casters will have to spend an extra round using True Strike (and that's an extra round for you to find + pulp them.) Hopefully my analysis is correct and we'll see Rito improve his average (shooting for .500 !!) For this weeks fights, please give me one of the following to moderate, if you can: Skymoon's fight, Iron's fight, or Rito's fight. Also, for the roster, please remove Turnip and Diana from the inactive characters list. Both have been retired/deleted (just never got to play them.) Kudo's out to MotherBast, barrel_master, and fluiddragon for their success with the spontaneous casters! -Jindl |
| Moherajikuyx11-26-03, 11:11 AM | Last win for gage was a bit easyed... Ah, barrel, barrel... Frankly, that makes me think that sorcs have to be helped, to win. |
| SnarkHunter11-26-03, 11:25 AM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Please note that sheets going back from inactive have to be standard! :mage: I began to write boring notes on those who didn't standardize it too... :twitch: Well then Rito, I'll play your sick game. Then the day is mine! (translation; editing right now, should be done~15 min.) |
| Moherajikuyx11-26-03, 11:56 AM | :D GH GH I OKd him on the trust, but I'll check it again when I'm home ;) CU |
| barrel_master11-26-03, 11:59 AM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket I wanna comment on the fight if i may? 1. First thing i see is Tomah didn't run to be 70' from him as said in his tactics. 2. Ya can't draw a potion while moving, only weapons or things for attack. We've done this incorrectly in the past and it needs to be corrected. 3. in round 3, you say Tomah is taking cover...Tomah is at (-1,3). He's out in the open, 15' away from any cover. No cover bonus would be granted as Stinky had perfect line of sight. 4. Next round Tomah double moved to be beside Stinky? Tomah only has a 40' move and even a double move only puts him at (-3,-12), that gives Stinky another shot. And we've all see what just one extra roll can do. 5. You had Stinky withdraw to draw his longsword? Why? He can just draw and attack without provoking anything. But even besides that, Stink's tactics are to draw longsword only if Tomah was invisible (or unseen to Stinky), he should have 5' back and shoot on the defensive. 6. Stinky's tactics say to shoot on the defensive when engaged with melee with Tomah, that never happened. Mostly because he was busy drink pots at the time, but the sword should never have been drawn in the first place. Not trying to pick on Barrel Master, we all appreciate ppl taking time to mod fights, but this is a lot of oversights for a small fight. If those errors were made in a heavier fight with the rolls being closer, you'd have a very different outcome. If i'm wrong in anything i've mentioned up there, such as maybe you just wrote down the wrong positions (but they fit with his movement) than accept my humblest apolagies. Again, not trying to be mean or pick on one particular fight, but as i was reading it, i just saw all that and felt it needed to be mentioned. Tellish **EDIT** ****EDIT**** off topic stuff. deleted. In all honesty Tellish, I appreciate your comments on this matter... I hope they will help me understand the rules better. 1. I thought I was properly able to do this in round 2... they were approximately 70 feet from eachother. By all means, if you can suggest some other way I could do this (or some better way) please inform me. 2. Humm... I thought you could draw potions while moving... from the SRD Draw or Sheathe a Weapon Drawing a weapon so that you can use it in combat, or putting it away so that you have a free hand, requires a move action. This action also applies to weapon-like objects carried in easy reach, such as wands. If your weapon or weapon-like object is stored in a pack or otherwise out of easy reach, treat this action as retrieving a stored item. If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may draw a weapon as a free action combined with a regular move. I suppose it interpret 'weapon-like objects carried in easy reach' as including potions. 3. I thought that the rock between the 2 was enough to give Tomah cover as part of the whole 'if you draw a line from any corner of your square and it goes through something then the dude has cover'. Although you're right, it can be very questionable... I'd like your input on this. 5. You are completely right about this he can draw his sword and attack. 6. Yes, this may have been one of my 'I thought it was in his best interest' mistakes. I figured there was no way he could do enough damage with a 1d4 bow to kill tomah so I switched to his longsword even if it ment I would have to roll high to even hit him. But I have a question for you tellish and maybe for the rest of the other mods too, where exactly do you draw the line between 'improvised tactics' and following (exactly) what the dude tells you? More importantly, where do you think the line should be drawn? Personaly, I like to give the mods free reign over my characters... Also, it's good that you mention these things. It indicates that you care about the integraty of the arena and it's fights... |
| Market_Share11-26-03, 12:32 PM | Originally posted by Jindl @ Moherajikuyx - Okay, hopefully Draloth can respond. If not, I challenge (MarketShare and Spike!!) Tomah just wants to thump some dwarves. -Jindl And the Shillelagh Club Kid isn't done with Dorrin, he's also challenging the mighty and fierce SPIKE! Now that's just insane Jim. Spike has greater manoeuverabilty than the S-C Kid, and the S-C Kid doesn't even have a ranged weapon. I mean what was this guy thinking? Apparently he wasn't Tom. I don't think he saw Spike come back from the market with that beautiful new strength bow this morning. Spike made sure he hid it real quick so the other gladiortors wouldn't notice the last-minute upgrade. Well either way, Spike is gonna make short work of Tomah. Or long work, if you consider the amount of rounds it's gonna take to lead Tomah around the arena like a lost puppy dog searching for it's master while Spike makes a pin-cushion out of him. This is true Jim. But Spike is smarter than that. Why win an easy fight, when you can win a SUPER easy fight. If he manages to draw Dorrin instead of Tomah, then doesn't it make it just THAT much easier for Spike? VERY well put Tom. I'm afraid Spike is gonna have to wait until Dorrin, the original challengee speaks up, and let fate decide who gets SPIKED!!! this week. AHahahaha. Ahahahaha. SPIKE |
| fluiddragon11-26-03, 12:58 PM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Last win for gage was a bit easyed... Ah, barrel, barrel... Frankly, that makes me think that sorcs have to be helped, to win. Don't forget barrel made some mistakes in your favor too. You essentially had +4 to hit because he didn't add the ac and cover bonuses right, so some of your hits would have been misses. Also we both assumed much different tactics for each other than employed, so both our tactics became obsolete quick. Your summoned swarm would have had 1 round to pummel me as I had a potion of hide from animals and would have been invisible to them, they might have even turned on you. Plus there were 2-3 rounds where Gage was to 1 hit point where my tactics specified healing if I was down more than 5. The last rounds I was invisible and your buffs were down. The fight might have lasted a little while longer if Cur rebuffed, but I figured it could hav gone either way. Cur was the toughest opponent of that level, any of the others I would have flown and magic missiled them to death. I don't think they need to be helped, to win. Challange me to a rematch when or if you get to my level again! I didn't even start on my spells I just used scrolls. I thought for sure you'd have resist electricity on, or I would have used shocking grasp and you'd be toast. -fd |
| Caterane11-26-03, 01:11 PM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Please note that sheets going back from inactive have to be standard! I began to write boring notes on those who didn't standardize it too... Hrmpf. Skymoon`s gone too. Mo, you and your standard sheet remind me of Agent Smith from Matrix. Surely you also remember what happened to him when he tried to assimilate Neo... That could be me. |
| fluiddragon11-26-03, 01:21 PM | improvising tactics; @ Barrel - When I mod fights I try not to improvise tactics unless this is specificaly written in the tactics. Here is how I do it and try to remain impartial: 1. How smart are the characters and what kind of personality to they have? If no personality is listed I go by class, feats, equipment, ect. and try to think like them. 2. I never use equipment except for CLW potions unless directed to. Notice on my tactics I said feel free to use any equipment with Gage. I have seen winners complain about used equipment. 3. If they do not specifically tell me to improvise I don't. 4. If I am forced to improvise and they didn't tell me to, like in situations with Gage vs Cur. Both of our tactics assumed the opponent would do something other than what they did. If a situation comes up that are not even close to the tactics I improvise as little as possible and try to get back to original tactics. 5. If I'm confused then I email them back for clarifications. 6. It is also much easier to mod characters you have mod'ed before. I know Hurtz as good as Tellish, so It's easy to improvise for him. I don't know druids very well so its tougher to improvise with them should it come to that. 7. Long fights are harder your attention wanders and its easy to make mistakes. If I have a big fight I try to take it in steps and takes breaks so I'm fresh when I run it. In the last few weeks playng Gage I have learned a bunch and I am getting a feel for how to play a sorcerer, I have learned a bit and so far most of my problems have been tactics. Trying to predict the opponent and what not. I am striving to make my tactics clearer, and cover as many what if's as I can. Each fight win or loose I learn allot. I'd like to start from scratch and use what I've learned to make a better character, but the board needs some higher level characters. Maybe his little brother will join the arena soon. Each of us has won fights due to mistakes and lost fights to mistakes. But thats the nature of the game |
| Jindl11-26-03, 01:36 PM | Originally posted by Caterane Hrmpf. Skymoon`s gone too. Mo, you and your standard sheet remind me of Agent Smith from Matrix. Surely you also remember what happened to him when he tried to assimilate Neo... That could be me. @Cat - I agree with your general thought that the standard sheet needs improvement, mainly to make it flexible enough for everyone to enjoy. I agree with Mo's purpose in having a standard sheet (namely to make sure that all vital info is listed, including Bubo's stats!) So, my suggestion to you my friend, is to come up with your own semi-standard sheet that will ensure that all new gladiators include all necessary info in an easy to read format. Then, once you have this sheet prepared, PM it to Mo, and let him post it, or at least put it on the Polls thread and we'll vote on who's sheet to use. But something does need to be in place to keep scambled character sheets from causing our hardworking Mod's to waste even more of their precious time. I hope you'll work on a sheet for us, Cat. I'd love to see what the "arena bard" can come up with :) . -Jindl EDIT: @ Spike (and Market Share) - Tomah says, "Ungah, bodga ver gedan." Which I think translates to "Bring it on, shorty." |
| Moherajikuyx11-26-03, 01:50 PM | Originally posted by Caterane Hrmpf. Skymoon`s gone too. Mo, you and your standard sheet remind me of Agent Smith from Matrix. Mr. Anderson! Welcome back, we missed you. But Cat your sheet is enough standard for my standards I don't think I flagged you. |
| barrel_master11-26-03, 01:58 PM | stinkygoblin >> You're right. |
| fluiddragon11-26-03, 02:31 PM | DragonRain at L3 is ready, He's missing from the roster. -fd |
| Caterane11-26-03, 02:34 PM | Cat`s note: First thing: DON`T change the font!! >COLOR=somethingotherthanindigo< >B<New Gladiator >/B< Alignment Race + Profession Level X (Dishwasher1/Moderator6/longtime-unemployed20)[/COLOR] Cat`s note: Paint the section above in your chosen color to show mods what color this is and to further familiarize them with your color. Note that you only get a color from level 6 on upward and @Jindl – familiars don`t get extra colors and @Jindl – lightgrey is crap. >U<>B<Statistics:>/B<>/U< (Str@4th, Int@8th) STR....16 (+3) DEX....18 (+4) CON....12 (+2) INT.....18 (+4) WIS....14 (+2) Cha.....08 (-1) Cat`s note: Ability stat enhancements could be painted in your color to reflect this (as shown above). There is, however no need to post unnecessary things like points spent (interests no one after some time). >B<Hitpoints:>/B<........41 >B<Bab/Grp:>/B<........+4/+11 >B<Movement:>/B<.....30', 20’ in armor, 40’ with Boots >B<Initiative:>/B<.......+8 >B<Armor Class:>/B<...37 (touch 17, flat 12, both 12) >i<[Dex,Wis,Dodge, Cheating]>/i< Cat`s note: Magical modified movement could also be painted in your color to reflect this. >B<>u<Saves:>/B<>/u< For +8 Ref +9 Will +12 (add +2 vs enchantments) >u< >B<Class abilities:>/B< >/u< Bribe poll, Drum on familiar (+Alertness), Improved unarmed bike-riding >u< >B<Race abilities: >/B< >/u< Immune to alarm clock, +2 save vs. enchantments, 16:9 vision, +2 to search/listen/coming to late to school. >u< >B<Regular feats:>/B< >/u< Weapon focus (Coat hanger), Dodge, Improved initiative, Iron will, Craft arms and armor >u< >B<Skills:>/B< >/u< >i<58 total (*cc)>/i< Unconcentration:.....>B<12>/B< [11 (rnk) + 1 (Con)] Hide*:....................>B<5>/B< [1 (rnk) +4 (Dex)] Listen:..................>B<17>/B< [11 (rnk) +2 (Wis) +2 (race) +2 (alertness)] Move silently*:........>B<5>/B< [1 (rnk) +4 (Dex)] Spellcraft: ............>B<12>/B< [8 (rnk) +4 (Int)] Spot*:..................>B<12>/B< [3 (rnk) + 2 (Wis) +2 (race) +2 (alertness) +3 (hawk)] Cat`s note: Hide, Move silently, Spot and Listen should always be included even if you don`t have any ranks in it >U< >B<Attacks:>/B< >/U< [Ma]Longsword:............... +9 melee, 1d8+4 (19-20/x2) [two-handed] [Ma]Composite Longbow:... +9 ranged (110'), 1d8+3 (20/x3) Melee touch:....................+7 melee (20/x2) Ranged touch:................. +8 ranged (20/x2) Unarmed strike:.................+7 melee, 1d6+3 (20/x2) Flurry of blows:.................+5/+5 melee, 1d6+3 (20/x2) Cat`s note: Include melee touch attacks, and ranged touch if you have some means to use it >U< >B<Defense:>/B< >/U< Armor: AC: +8; Dex: +1; ACP: -6; Heavy armor Shield: AC: +2; Dex: --; ACP: -2; >U< >B<Equipment:>/B< >/U< (*self-made) (**stolen) >U< >I<General equipment:>/I< >/U< Weapon: [Ma] Composite [+3] Longbow (350*) Weapon: [Ma] Longsword (157*) Weapon: My mom Weapon: 34 Arrows (2) Companion: Hawk Miscellaneous: Cloak of resistance +1 (1000) Miscellaneous: Halruaan Skyship (700,000) Miscellaneous: 2xTanglefoot bag (100) Miscellaneous: Traveler`s outfit, midnight blue (1) Yoda`s note: Magic items paint in your color you should do. Hard to detect they are >U< >I<Potions and Vials:>/I< >/U< 4xCure light wounds (200) 1xCure moderate wounds (300) 1xAntitoxin (50) 2xHide from animals (100) 2xUniversal solvent (50) >U< >I<Arcane Scrolls:>/I< >/U< 2nd: 1xInvisibility [3] (100*) 2nd: 2xMirror image [3] (200*) 1st: 1xMagic weapon [1] (25) 1st: 2xSilent image [1] (32*) 1st: 5xTrue strike [1] (80*) >U< >I<Equipment at home:>/I< >/U< Bladesong book (84/100 pages) Coins: 168 Gp My wife >B< Spells per day: 4/4/4/3 >/B< >U< >B<Spellbook:>/B< >/U< >b< >i<0:>/i< >/b< Acid splash, Arcane mark, Dancing lights, Daze, Detect magic, Detect poison, Disrupt undead, Flare, Ghost sound, Light, Mage hand, Mending, Message, Open/Close, Prestidigitation, Ray of frost, Read magic, Resistance, Touch of fatigue >i< >b<1:>/b< >/i< Color spray, Enlarge person, Expeditious retreat, Grease, Mage armor, Magic missile, Protection from chaos, Ray of enfeeblement, Shield, Shocking grasp, Silent image, Sleep, True strike, Ventriloquism >COLOR=SAME AS ALWAYS< >B<Hawk "My best friend">/B< Tiny animal true neutral Familiar>/COLOR< Cat`s note: Of course you have to add its stats and so on like you did with the main character >COLOR=MY COLOR< >U< >B<Description: >/B< >/U< >U< >I<Appearance and Character >/I< >/U< ...is always polite... looks like... you get the idea >U< >I<Background and Story >/I< >/U< ...was born in... my parents threw me out... let your imagination fly >U< >I<His present life in the Arena >/I< >/U< After his first few fights it happened that... After 7 fights I sent my old animal companion to hell and got a new one... After 10 fights I hope I`ll win one day... >/COLOR< >B< >U< >I<Arena Combat Record: >/I< >/U< >/B< Ebelin vs Hy Denshadow:.......victory Ebelin vs Imitril:...................victory Ebelin vs Rito Maya:.............victory Ebelin vs Bilo Darkleaf:...........victory Ebelin vs Ander Brogaden:.....victory Ebelin vs Jindl:.....................victory Ebelin vs Bruno Willikens:.......victory Ebelin vs Bilo Darkleaf:...........victory Ebelin vs Jindl:.....................victory Cat`s note: and now my favorite invention: Equipment management (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1934246#post1934246) This is a link to a seperate sheet which`s sole purpose is to list lost and bought equipment which interests no one when checking your stats --> extra page, on the gladiators thread The finished sheet looks something like that Shinning Example (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1342174#post1342174) |
| Jindl11-26-03, 02:39 PM | Hey Mo- A couple of things for pairings: 1. Uber Munch is not core: He has spellcasting prodigy and haste domain. 2. Sshuit's new rogue, Voliana is ready. 3. Dragonrain (fluiddragon) is ready and should be off the inactive list. 4. There are several challenges floating around... most are well documented on the roleplay thread, or listed on the character sheet. -Jindl |
| Moherajikuyx11-26-03, 02:51 PM | Thanks Jindl... About the challenges, during the pairings I check out the sheets, so the ones written on the sheets' titles will be surely addressed; the others maight be forgotten. *edit* Cat, the equipment management in a separate sheet is not a bright idea. Let's keep moderating as simple as possible. |
| Pitlords11-26-03, 03:01 PM | PAIRINGS UNDER COURSE... STOP EDITING NOW! |
| Caterane11-26-03, 03:06 PM | @Mo: I relocated the Harvester. Number is 193 44 35. Please make the necessary changes. About the equipment table: After a couple of fights your list will be longer than the sheet itself so an extra sheet sounds good to me. How do you want to check the management if one only posts his recently purchased/lost/sold equipment? Do you check it every time? For every character? No one does. This solution provides us with an easy access to overview the gained/lost equipment. I didn`t post my equipment on the board anyway (because I don`t want this in my sheet) ...until now, but no one ever asked for it nor do half the gladiators have a section for it. Perhaps you should think twice about this. |
| Market_Share11-26-03, 03:35 PM | Personally i like the default character sheet. It's really easy to read and follow. Also, at the bottom it has a section for fight results. Just plug in what items where used/sold. That's really all you need. It takes but a minute to quickly add them up, and if you include a total cost of spent items at the end of it, then it makes it all the quicker. It doesn't take up even one-third the scrolling space of that equipment management guide thingy, nor does it take up a seperate page. I've seen other ppl do this, and that's why i'm doing it as well. I think it makes a lot of sense to do this using the default character sheet. Also, the more i scroll around looking at opponents characters and see they are using the standard sheet with their results on the bottom, the easier i'm it is for me to gauge them. Especially since i know where to look for the information that i'm looking for. When i look at sheets like Cronk, Uber, etc.. i just shudder. Takes me forever to find what i'm looking for let alone even to know what i'm looking at. SPIKE |
| Pitlords11-26-03, 03:37 PM | 1. Done. 2. Actually I have a section for it already: the expenses section. Check it in Rito's, that's my idea: simple but comprehensive. Not a list fight for fight. |
| Caterane11-26-03, 04:15 PM | @Mo: I would suggest to update the "inactive characters" list because there is a difference between someone like Bruno or Kelek who just sit out 1 fight and Jart, Melitan or Lacelar who haven`t shown up in months and probably never will do again. If they show up again one day it shouldn`t be much work to link their character sheets again but for now it keeps the roster "clean". We should remove the following ones from the list: 1) Jart 2) Melitan the Obscure 3) Pelle 4) Siliqui Holminion 5) Alton Thorngage 6) Lacelar 8) Yarin Patch 9) Diana 11) Rizzen Pharn 12) Aris the Longstrider 13) Imitril 14) Gorn 15) Ralin 19) Turnip the test bard |
| Moherajikuyx11-26-03, 04:35 PM | The bad news: this week's the super-high score of the uneven numerous levels. Six characters not playing :( The good news: this way, no moderator has to do more than a fight! I hope the fights will be on time this week. If anyone has time problems, I remind that cellar offered to run up to 4 (!) fights. Anyways... PAIRINGS DONE! Happy thinking! May the beAst win! :behold: |
| Moherajikuyx11-26-03, 04:36 PM | Thanks Cat, now doing. Hey what about the color scheme I just used for the default sheet? :D |
| Market_Share11-26-03, 04:39 PM | ACK!! Hehe, i refused Tomah's challenge instead letting fate decide who i fight. But that's fine. That club is gonna hurt. OUCH!! Well it looks like Spike will be fighting the Shillelagh Club Kid afterall Jim. Yup. I don't think Tomah knows what he got himself into. He could have had a perfect record by pounding on one of the other guys, but he's just bound and determined to get that one loss on his record. I think they would be facing each other anyhow next round, so may as well it do it now while Tomah doesn't have the feats or the equipment to properly challenge Spike. Well Tom, it's gonna be interesting to see how this one turns out. Tomah is no dummy in the ring, despite being frozen for so many thousands of years. It's gonna be interesting to see what he comes up with. He'll be coming up with a belly full of arrows Jim. Ahahaha! Ahahaha Good luck Tomah. It's gonna be a tough one for both of us. SPIKE EDIT @Jindl LOL...nice purchase. Wise purchase. Maybe Tomah not so dumb afterall. Or maybe i'm the dumb one for pointing it out. |
| Pitlords11-26-03, 04:42 PM | Let's not be so drastic, I'll give a timeout of three months. |
| Caterane11-26-03, 05:06 PM | @Mo: As I said - we can always re-institute the returners. Until then we should clean up the roster. I find this list as it is most unclear. Any active character posted there is going to drown in the mass of dead characters. |
| sloisel11-26-03, 05:55 PM | Mo, you've got G. D. Bébit on the roster as having a loss already. While I agree with you he's not very resilient, but give me the benefit of the doubt! Sébastien Loisel |
| Market_Share11-26-03, 06:05 PM | Originally posted by sloisel Mo, you've got G. D. Bébit on the roster as having a loss already. While I agree with you he's not very resilient, but give me the benefit of the doubt! Sébastien Loisel :rofl: :heehee Good one. Personally i like your odds of winning. SPIKE |
| fluiddragon11-26-03, 06:30 PM | Wooo Whoooo! I get Braken vs Hurtz! I'm claming Hurtz as mine. I've run most of his fights for the last month or so now. I think I know him better than my own characters. LOL. This will be a fun match. I'll start working on the story now. I'm going to enjoy this! And its the highest level match I've done yet. @ Mo I need you to forward over Tellish's tactics for Hurtz. @ KerlanRayne, if you want to save Snark some time you can surrender now...... :angel: LOL edit: @ sshuit I sent out Dragon's tactics. |
| Moherajikuyx11-26-03, 07:24 PM | Wops, cut&paste rulez. Tellish's Tactics sent. CU tomorrow! Gnight |
| Alathar Vierce11-27-03, 04:55 AM | Hmm I go away for a bit and the arena goes from Enlarge Person to Shil. Clubs, I need to get caught up with these trends :D |
| Moherajikuyx11-27-03, 05:00 AM | Here he comes! Jindl, get ready... |
| Prexx11-27-03, 06:55 AM | Recieved tactics for Sir Rodger. Still need tactics for Dorrin. Welcome Back Alathar! |
| fluiddragon11-27-03, 07:37 AM | Just remeber who thought of the Shil/staff/club idea first! hahaha |
| sshuit11-27-03, 08:18 AM | Who may I ask came up with it first? I've been playing an enlarged 1/2 orc grapple monster a la Rito in our f2f games for a while and I'm going to start quarterstaff/shillelagh or club/shillelagh soon :-) Originally posted by Alathar Vierce Hmm I go away for a bit and the arena goes from Enlarge Person to Shil. Clubs, I need to get caught up with these trends :D |
| Alterlat11-27-03, 08:24 AM | Fluid came up with it. I'm not going to forget - poor Jagath was the guinea pig in the experiment. |
| fluiddragon11-27-03, 08:52 AM | Originally posted by Alterlat Fluid came up with it. I'm not going to forget - poor Jagath was the guinea pig in the experiment. :D |
| Alathar Vierce11-27-03, 11:08 AM | Well credit is due as the damage really adds up if you put the two combos up, if it wasn't for thanksgiving today I'd have to introduce my version :) but gives me something to think about with my boring family lol Not 100% back yet, but thanks though. Should be making my full return shortly, as this damned semester is about over. |
| sshuit11-27-03, 11:42 AM | Tactics received for the Dragonrain vs Clìodhna d'Elrich fight. Will try and run today, post ASAP. How the hell do I type that ì character anyways..... grrrrr. @MadCow : Bad idea to annoy the Mod even before the fight is run :D |
| LLMadCow11-27-03, 12:33 PM | It's not my fault. Realy! Who named her? Her parents. :) That ì can be cut and pasted all day long, but do not worry about it too much if it bothers you. We will all know what it is... |
| sshuit11-27-03, 12:47 PM | Modding fight, questions . 1) Did we decide that "drawing" a scroll was a free action like a weapon or a move equivalent action 2) For the purposes of Sanctuary, do you know if the target saves successfully or not?... Is there a spellcraft roll of some sort involved? edit : I noticed that you can scribe up to 3+ spells on the same scroll. The spellcasters really should be doing that ! |
| Caterane11-27-03, 12:51 PM | I sent tactics for both of my characters. Received Mo`s. @Mo: Could take a while with the fight. I get filmed next week during a lecture and I have to prepare therefore. Guess they want to show how you shouldn`t hold a paper on. :sad: |
| SnarkHunter11-27-03, 01:04 PM | @sshuit:1) I think it would be best if only weapons and wands (or staves) were treated as weapon like objects. thus drawing a scroll or potion or similar item would take a move equivalent action and could not be combined with a move. If only because the rule is vague and this is as we've done it in the past. 2) If they fail they can't attack...I'd say thats a pretty good sign. did you have something else in mind? 3) Mmm, thats a good point. I'll need to consider that. No tactics recieved yet, I'll send mine sometime tonight. |
| Caterane11-27-03, 04:47 PM | @americans: I`ll go to the USA in summer, for half a year perhaps. Where are the good chic... sites? :D :rolleyes: No, seriously. I thought about New York but California sounds pretty good, too, but honestly I don`t know that much about the specific locations. Any insider information? Thanks Cat @Mo: Too bad the italians don`t speak english :) |
| LLMadCow11-27-03, 05:00 PM | Quote by Caterane @americans: I`ll go to the USA in summer, for half a year perhaps. Where are the good chic... sites? No, seriously. I thought about New York but California sounds pretty good, too, but honestly I don`t know that much about the specific locations. Any insider information? Well, Cat, there are a lot of options available to you. It really depends on what appeals to you in the fairer sex. Are there any complexions/skin tones you prefer? What about attitude. Some partions of the country are more generally laid back than others and they all have different demographics to be mindful of. So, please tell us a little bit about what you find appealing in a woman... Oh, that was chic, not chick! LOL. Anyway, let us know what you are interested in so that we can give a better reply. I have lived in 4 different states, and visited 35. |
| Market_Share11-27-03, 05:13 PM | Dude, Cat, come to Canada man. Montreal has ALL the best looking women in the WORLD!!! We also got the best beer. Not only nationally, but provincially as well. We have our own special brew of Quebecer beer man. Fin Du Mond, Trois Pistole, those are some killer beers. And you ain't had women until you had a good french lady that KNOWS what a body is all about. SPIKE |
| Caterane11-27-03, 05:31 PM | Thanks for the reply, LL. 35 states? That`s something to work with. I would say I put the main emphasize on a place where`s something going on. I don`t want to end up in a small hamlet 2 hours away from the next city. The people there should be open-minded, friendly and wear hot pants (well, the last one isn`t that important :cool: ). I want to get aquainted with new people, talk a lot, hang around, party, such things. I heard about Seattle where it rains 9 months a year. That no option either. The weather should be fine but since I am going in June that shouldn`t be much of a problem. Perhaps I am going to a university, perhaps I`ll just work, don`t know yet, but I have to choose a good location. And I definately need a roleplaying group. 6 months without D&D *shudders* @Market: *lol* Canada is a bit cold, ain`t it? Germany has more beer than people. We have the highest per head intake world-wide so this is not my top priority but I am always open to new sorts. French ladies? I want to improve my english, not french. Oh you mean THAT "french". Aright. See ya in Montreal :bounce: But there`s a beer museum nearby with hundreds of sorts from every country. Never drank Canadian beer but that`s the next thing on my list now. |
| sshuit11-27-03, 06:59 PM | Just finished Dragonrain vs. Clìodhna d'Elrich. This fight took a LONG time to run. This is what happens when one person wants to stay at range and has better speed vs. Someone who wants to melee but is slower. I wanted to cry softly onto my dice. sshuit |
| fluiddragon11-27-03, 08:21 PM | Tactics sent to Snark for Gage. |
| fluiddragon11-27-03, 08:24 PM | Originally posted by sshuit Just finished Dragonrain vs. Clìodhna d'Elrich. This fight took a LONG time to run. This is what happens when one person wants to stay at range and has better speed vs. Someone who wants to melee but is slower. I wanted to cry softly onto my dice. sshuit Sorry bout the long fight! Looking forward to reading it. |
| fluiddragon11-27-03, 10:03 PM | @ sshuit, Good fight, I know you had some tough calls to make, I really didn't think DR would win. I hope nobody is too hard for your "cheating" but I think you handled a difficult situation well, as DR purposely left his bow out because he didn't want to kill her. Thanks for sticking with my tactics even when it seemed silly, usually I am much more flexible, but I didn't want to blow alot of resources on a tough match with a caster. I guess the dice gods favored me. I enjoyed the flavor text too. fd |
| sshuit11-27-03, 10:13 PM | I tried to simulate you guys running around the arena in circles chasing each other and there really was no way for you to avoid all those Magic missles. I kinda gave Clìodhna d'Elrich the benefit of the doubt with the acid splash and the ray of frost, with a range of about 30' you really should have had a chance to counter attack those ones. What sealed the deal for Clìodhna d'Elrich was a few things. 1) Wrong / weird tactics for if she was grappled (Why did you think you could cast spells if grappled ? Why not use Freedom of movement?) 2) Your deflect arrows feat made sniping at you more or less useless. 3) Incredibly bad luck with the bow when you were stunned. 2 natural 1's!!! And pretty weak damage even with the bow. 1d8-2.... 4) Sanctuary really sucks if its only for 2 rounds. Plus you don't know if it works until the guy tries to hit you. Could be painful. All things considered I think she'll be really scary once she reaches mystic theurgeish levels......... but it might be hard work getting there. |
| SnarkHunter11-27-03, 11:11 PM | Tactics recieved for Gage. Tactics sent for Moon and Hanz. Gobble gobble! |
| Prexx11-27-03, 11:12 PM | @sshuit - Yeah, I was thinking of making a Mystic Theurge myself. But they are just so weak at early levels. A level 1 Mystic Theurge is at least at least a 7th level character (3wiz/3clr/1mt), but he can only cast 2nd level spells, when his wizard/cleric counterpart can cast 4th level spells, and at a much higher caster level (7th lvl caster compared to 4th). Once they reach clvl 13 or so, they start becoming viable, but it sure is a rough road. |
| sshuit11-27-03, 11:21 PM | @prexx Yer absolutely right. MT is viable at higher levels, I'd say level 7+ is interesting. I think the way to do it is to do monster combat Clr up to level 3 (with mount / str domain / lance) and then add in wizard at level 4/5/6 for buffs mostly...... Splashing that wizard early really hurts. (no armor / crappy HP) |
| Draloth11-28-03, 02:47 AM | Question-if you were to come around a piller onto a hiding person, you would see them, no? Fight complete, will post tommorow once I have time to embellish it. |
| LLMadCow11-28-03, 04:13 AM | What sucked the most for Clìodhna d'Elrich was that I forgot to include her manacles in the tactics I sent. They are on her character sheet and intended to be placed on opponents when stunned, sleeping, etc. I know that with a stunned opponent it would be a little difficult, but not impossible. That would have made a world of differemce... Edit Clìodhna also used an Elixir of Hiding, which I have noted in her used items. Notes taken and changes made. On the whole Mystic Theurge thing, I am trying to make this work. I could have won this if I had actually done some shopping this round and paid closer attention to my intended tactics. I figure next level she will go with Cleric and then follow up with the Wizard levels. Yes, she will have less powerful spells than her counterparts, but she will have a lot more and be more versatile. I figure for the first few levels of MT I will have to be very select in what I purchase to make bext use of her limited spell pool... |
| Prexx11-28-03, 04:23 AM | Originally posted by Draloth Question-if you were to come around a piller onto a hiding person, you would see them, no? That is correct the hiding person would be spotted. Cover or concealment is needed in order to maintain or initate a hide. The only exceptions are if they have the camouflage ability (which allows them to maintain a hide without need for cover/concealment, but they still need it to initiate the hide) or hide in plain sight ability (which allows them to initate and maintain a hide without the need for cover/concealment even under direct observation). |
| LLMadCow11-28-03, 04:32 AM | question about scrolls - As mentioned by Shuit, scrolls can hold more than 1 spell. He mentioned a limit of 3, but looking in the DMGs description of scrolls, it mentions that scrolls can hold three or more spells. So, I ask, how many spells can one scroll hold? At least 4, since it reads 3 or more. So, can I make bigger scrolls? I'd like to... |
| Irlina11-28-03, 04:41 AM | I think there's no real hard limit on ammount of spells on a scroll. However, consider the following: -If you make more than 1 spell on a scroll you need a second hand free if the spells needs gestures (1 spell- you cast spell, it desolves and hand is free) -Whether you can buy bigger scrolls depends on our current vote on scrolls - else you can only do them yourself. -A scroll is very, very fragile and a clever foe can sunder your 1 hp scroll easily! And then all spells are lost. |
| Moherajikuyx11-28-03, 04:57 AM | Originally posted by sshuit She also casts true strike from a scroll and fires one arrow at Dragon before remembering he has deflect arrows as a feat. She also has a Longbow, which cannot possibly hit as long as Dragon has a hand free. I know, in the feats chapter of the srd it's this way, but from the SRD, Armors and Weapons (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/MagicItemsII.rtf) Arrow Deflection: This shield protects the wielder as if he had the Deflect Arrows feat. Once per round when he would normally be struck by a ranged weapon, he can make a DC 20 Reflex save. If the ranged weapon has an enhancement bonus, the DC increases by that amount. If he succeeds, the shield deflects the weapon. He must be aware of the attack and not flat-footed. Attempting to deflect a ranged weapon doesn’t count as an action. Exceptional ranged weapons, such as boulders hurled by giants or acid arrows, can’t be deflected. Faint abjuration; CL 5th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, shield; Price +2 bonus. Is there anyone who knows of an errata? The feat looks unbalanced, and the change from v.3.0 looks unmotivated. |
| Prexx11-28-03, 06:04 AM | @Mo - It seems to be the general theme of the board that when in doubt, stick with the core rules. I personally don't think the feat is all that unbalancing. It's not very useful for non-monk characters since you have to have a free hand, and must have improved unarmed strike. And it really is only marginally useful for a monk. Because once a monk gets higher in level, they really don't need to worry about ranged attacks due to their exceptional movement. @Draloth - I still have not recieved tactics for Dorrin. Please send them to me ASAP as the deadline is rapidly approaching. I do have three questions for everybody though. 1) About cone effects and widen spell feat - Does widen spell increase the area of a cone spells? I know it used to be enlarge spell, but that feat has been changed from v3.0, and no longer affects spells that are fixed range. Most cone spells are burst effects, and widen affects bursts, but I'm not sure if that is what they are intending with the feat. 2) About mounted combat and melee attacks - Is a rider able to attack at the end of a double move or full run by his mount? In the PH, it states that a rider is unable to full attack if his mount moves more than 5'. But it doesn't really go into detail about the subject. After reading over it, it seems to imply that a rider would be able to attack after a double move from his mount. But when I think about it, really wouldn't make much sense. Here is my reasoning. A person is able to move 60 feet during a given round. If he move anywhere between 35 to 60 feet during that round, he is unable to attack because he does not have enough time to do so. He is spending the time moving instead of attacking. The same principal should apply to riding a mount. (Assuming your mount has a base move of 50) If your mount moves between 55-100 feet during the round, you would be unable to attack because you are having to wait for your mount to finish moving. Anybody else have any takes on the interpretation? 3) About casting spells while mounted - What is the final interpretation on casting spells while mounted. The PH seems rather ambiguous. If a mount moves up to, but not exceeding it's base speed, does the rider need to make a concentration check in order to cast a spell? My first instinct would be no, because a character can normally move his listed speed and then cast a spell without a problem. He is not actually casting the spell while he is moving, but after he finishes. The same concept should apply to the mount. The character is not casting the spell while the mount is moving, but after it finishes moving. Thanks in advance for your help guys. |
| Caterane11-28-03, 06:20 AM | I CAN CHARGE!! I CAN CHARGE!! :confused: Oh, that wasn`t the issue. :smirk: 2) Yes he may attack, single attack only though. Your example is still true: the double-moving MOUNT isn`t allowed to do anything else. The rider is an entirely different matter. It`s the same like a fighter standing on a train. The train moves him to the spot and when he`s in position he attacks. Mounts are the medieval trains. 3) My reasoning would be: Mount makes single move only - no concentration check Mount makes double move - concentration check Dc10 Mount makes charge or run - concentraton check Dc15 as described in the PHB. |
| Moherajikuyx11-28-03, 06:29 AM | Originally posted by Prexx @Mo - It seems to be the general theme of the board that when in doubt, stick with the core rules. Actually, the problem here is that the core rules are contradictorious. 1. yes, if the cone is a burst, emanation, (line), or spread effect. 2. I thought it like you, but we were wrong: from the srd, Combat II (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/CombatII.rtf): Even at your mount’s full speed, you don’t take any penalty on melee attacks while mounted. This solves it. After all it looks logical. If the casters can cast and the archers can shot, the same goes with the riders. I guess we can consider the rider readying an attack action for when the mount reaches the target. 3. You are correct. |
| Moherajikuyx11-28-03, 06:32 AM | Originally posted by Caterane I CAN CHARGE!! I CAN CHARGE!! :D Cat you're too fast. BTW I'm glad I learned something about riders today... >wink< |
| Caterane11-28-03, 06:38 AM | Now I have a question. Can you use Mounted combat to negate a hit when flatfooted? |
| fluiddragon11-28-03, 07:01 AM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx I know, in the feats chapter of the srd it's this way, but Is there anyone who knows of an errata? The feat looks unbalanced, and the change from v.3.0 looks unmotivated. Deflect Arrows was changed to make it more usefull. You have to be aware of the attack, and if you are its an auto deflect. The arena especially at low levels makes this feat seem more powerfull than it is, because you only have 1 enemy to fight and unless they have rapid shot, will only get 1 attack with a bow, which is auto defelcted. In 3.0 you had a tough DC to make (for low levels) and the feat was nearly useless. 3.5 made it something worth while. After characters hit 6-10th level it will get less and less usefull. In game combat reflexes is very good, but in the arena it is less so. I never take deflect arrows in a game as combat reflexes does more for my monks than defelct arrows does, but the arena is much different. Just like my sorcerer, I don't know any defensive 1st level spells If I was playing in game I would know both Mage Armor and Shield. -fd edit: DragonRain is ready for the next round I'm really happy with the way the character is progressing. You'll see why I took that level of ranger. It has nice synergy with monks for skills, +1 bab nice saves at 1st, and access to spells/wands, gives the monk some extra options. I think he will do good. |
| fluiddragon11-28-03, 07:03 AM | Originally posted by Caterane Now I have a question. Can you use Mounted combat to negate a hit when flatfooted? I wouldn't think so flat footed means you havn't taken action yet. I don't know an exact quote but unless somebody could show me different I would rule that it doesn't negate a hit when flat footed. -fd |
| Moherajikuyx11-28-03, 08:03 AM | I concur, mounted combat used that way would negate flatfootedness. From the srd (emphasis mine): A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, not yet reacting normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity. |
| Jindl11-28-03, 08:25 AM | Re: Mounted Combat - Please find somewhere in the rules that state that flat-footedness, invisibility, or loss of dex bonus ='s loss of Mounted Combat ability. I've looked everywhere, and near as I can tell, you can still use mounted combat when you lose your dex bonus. Re: Travel Domain power - The freedom of movement effect cannot be activated at will. It only activates when the cleric is affected by magical effects that impede movement. Therefore it will not help you in a grapple (unless you were grappled by a magical effect like Evard's Black Tentacles or something.) -Jindl |
| Prexx11-28-03, 08:45 AM | Hmmm, I see what you are saying Cat....it would be sort of like the warrior riding the mount would be readying to attack an opponent once he enters range. So as soon as the mount enters range, he takes his swing. Makes more sense. On the other issue, are those DC's flat? Or is it DC+Spell lvl? In the Concentration section, it just says flat dc 10 or 15. But in mounted combat section it says DC+spell lvl. I would go on the dc+spell lvl assumption because it seems it would be much easier to get off a little magic missile spell while your mount is running rather than trying to get off a meteor swarm. |
| Moherajikuyx11-28-03, 08:48 AM | Jindl we're not talking of dex loss, only of start of the match: using mounted combat before your initiative you'd act "before you acted". I'd let it be used when one is attacked by an invisible foe. |
| Caterane11-28-03, 09:05 AM | Where`s the difference? Flatfooted is flatfooted. There is no difference between the flatfootedness due to lost ini and the surprise flatfootedness so I would say both apply. Example: The rider sits on his horse and dreams of beautiful US woman while reading a book and nearly snorting off. Now an invisible Silencer from the Elemental plane of stealth approaches and throws a rock at his mount. Now you want to tell me that the rider reacts and negates the attack with mounted combat??? |
| Moherajikuyx11-28-03, 09:14 AM | That rider would be defenseless, it's different :D |
| Moherajikuyx11-28-03, 09:18 AM | Checking the errata (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/PHB_Errata09242003.zip), I just found another way of preventing charges: summoning stuff in the middle. You can't overrun as part of a charge. |
| Caterane11-28-03, 09:33 AM | No, he`s holding his shield and has donned his armor. He`s just not AWARE of the foe = flatfooted. summoning stuff in the middle. You can't overrun as part of a charge. Summoning is a full round action so no ready action. And the rider can jump over the creatures which doesn`t impede his movement so doesn`t spoil his charge. |
| Moherajikuyx11-28-03, 10:02 AM | He's defenseless because he's thinking about women... Who isn't when women are around. Originally posted by Caterane And the rider can jump over the creatures which doesn`t impede his movement so doesn`t spoil his charge. I'd say true, but the mount has to jump over the threatened space to be sure. Quite a jump, 5'+height. |
| Caterane11-28-03, 10:39 AM | Not with horseshoes of speed :D (+22 jump skill) Ok, another example: Bard the turnip tester is sleeping on his horse because due to a gene mutation its back is shaped like a bed and its fur is made of cushions and now the incorporal invisible stalker approaches - from behind - and casts a stilled silent Ray of enfeeblement on the mount. But no problem for Bard. He jumps up, grips the reins, knows from which direction the ray is coming because he has uncanny sense (which every Mounted combat feat user possesses), pulls the reins of the horse around which acknowledges his commands and reacts by going on its toes while drawing in breath and the ray passes under the horse belly. And all this happened in the split-second from from when on the ray is fired but before it connected with the horse because the ray has a speed of 1 mph. |
| SnarkHunter11-28-03, 10:39 AM | Cat where are you getting this jumping business anyway? My understanding of charging rules was that if there was something in your path that blocked you're movement you couldn't charge. |
| Jindl11-28-03, 10:50 AM | @ MadCowTemplate - Tactics emailed for Tomah. @ Snark and Cat - Tactics received for both Ebelin and Skymoon. No more revisions to tactics will be accepted. Re: Mounted combat - I don't think a helpless foe can use any feats. But I am not concerned with the helpless condition. I want to know if a person can use mounted combat to negate an attack made by an invisible or hiding foe. Again, I am not talking about being helpless or flat-footed at the start of combat (something different than when you face an invisible attacker). Please clarify if mounted combat can be used to negate an attack from invisible/hidden foes. Obviously this if for the Skymoon/Ebelin fight (big surprise that the mage would be invisible and trying to attack the mount. I'm sure nobody saw that coming.) What do you guys think? -Jindl |
| Caterane11-28-03, 10:58 AM | @Jindl: :eek: Perhaps someone thought it`s about the Harvester??? Originally posted by the all-knowing sage Where`s the difference? Flatfooted is flatfooted. There is no difference between the flatfootedness due to lost ini and the surprise flatfootedness so I would say both apply. |
| fluiddragon11-28-03, 12:21 PM | Originally posted by Jindl @ MadCowTemplate - Tactics emailed for Tomah. @ Snark and Cat - Tactics received for both Ebelin and Skymoon. No more revisions to tactics will be accepted. Re: Mounted combat - I don't think a helpless foe can use any feats. But I am not concerned with the helpless condition. I want to know if a person can use mounted combat to negate an attack made by an invisible or hiding foe. Again, I am not talking about being helpless or flat-footed at the start of combat (something different than when you face an invisible attacker). Please clarify if mounted combat can be used to negate an attack from invisible/hidden foes. Obviously this if for the Skymoon/Ebelin fight (big surprise that the mage would be invisible and trying to attack the mount. I'm sure nobody saw that coming.) What do you guys think? -Jindl If the mounted foe is unaware that they are being attacked then I personaly wouldn't allow mounted combat to negate the attack. I don't have a quote from the SRD but in the abbsense of hard proof that it is possible I would say common sence should take over. Also take into account the scent ability of most mounts. Unelss the hider is also using a hide from animals potion/spell the mount will know he's about and would react appropriately, but the rider I don't think would get to negate the attack. If the attacker is scented and the rider knows danger is about I would allow it at a -10 to the DC. Again I'm not backing this up with rules, as I didn't find this situation in the SRD and I'm too cheep to buy the books right now. What direction is the attack coming from? Which way can I move my mount to avoid the hit? When do I make the move? If the rider can't answer these questions I think its safe to say he can't negate the hit. -fd |
| SnarkHunter11-28-03, 12:37 PM | Okay lets compare two feats both similar in function (avoiding attacks), but changed in aplication. DEFLECT ARROWS [GENERAL] Prerequisites: Dex 13, Improved Unarmed Strike. Benefit: You must have at least one hand free (holding nothing) to use this feat. Once per round when you would normally be hit with a ranged weapon, you may deflect it so that you take no damage from it. You must be aware of the attack and not flatfooted. Attempting to deflect a ranged weapon doesn’t count as an action. Unusually massive ranged weapons and ranged attacks generated by spell effects can’t be deflected. Special: A monk may select Deflect Arrows as a bonus feat at 2nd level, even if she does not meet the prerequisites. A fighter may select Deflect Arrows as one of his fighter bonus feats. [GENERAL] And MOUNTED COMBAT [GENERAL] Prerequisite: Ride 1 rank. Benefit: Once per round when your mount is hit in combat, you may attempt a Ride check (as a reaction) to negate the hit. The hit is negated if your Ride check result is greater than the opponent’s attack roll. (Essentially, the Ride check result becomes the mount’s Armor Class if it’s higher than the mount’s regular AC.) Special: A fighter may select Mounted Combat as one of his fighter bonus feats. Now what in the first feat is missing from the second? You get three guesses and the first two don't count. Actually I think the difference is balanced. The mounted combat feat, while potentially more versatile is limited in what it protects. The Deflect arrows feat is automatic, while mounted combat requires a ride check. And of course mounted combat gives nothing to protect the rider, while deflect arrows can actually keep you-the gladiator-alive. By the rules there's no reason a FF rider cant use mounted combat to deflect a hit to the mount. |
| Caterane11-28-03, 12:51 PM | The Deflect arrow feat is not automatic. It requires a Dc20 Reflex save. Personally I think they either forgot it to mention in the MC description or assumed that we have common sense enough to not let one use this feat when he doesn`t know he`s under attack. Tell me, WHEN does the rider realize that he`s under attack? AFTER the ray is fired and not before. The moment he`ll realizes this will be when the ray either hits him or misses him and not before. Forget scent. A ray has a far greater range than scent so no help here. Perhaps someone should write to the sage Edit: On top of that one can turn this comparison the other way around: If DA requires you to be aware then MC should work the same way. EVERY "defensive" feat requires you to be aware: dodge, mobility, expertise, etc. so what`s different here? Please think about it with common sense and you`ll know the answer. |
| fluiddragon11-28-03, 01:12 PM | Originally posted by Caterane The Deflect arrow feat is not automatic. It requires a Dc20 Reflex save. In 3.0 you are right in 3.5 you ar wrong from the SRD: DEFLECT ARROWS [GENERAL] Prerequisites: Dex 13, Improved Unarmed Strike. Benefit: You must have at least one hand free (holding nothing) to use this feat. Once per round when you would normally be hit with a ranged weapon, you may deflect it so that you take no damage from it. You must be aware of the attack and not flatfooted. Attempting to deflect a ranged weapon doesn’t count as an action. Unusually massive ranged weapons and ranged attacks generated by spell effects can’t be deflected. Special:A monk may select Deflect Arrows as a bonus feat at 2nd level, even if she does not meet the prerequisites. A fighter may select Deflect Arrows as one of his fighter bonus feats. The changed this in 3.5 because in 3.0 it was near useless, in 3.5 it actually has some use. You may be getting the feat confused with the Arrow deflection feat for shields Arrow Deflection: This shield protects the wielder as if he had the Deflect Arrows feat. Once per round when he would normally be struck by a ranged weapon, he can make a DC 20 Reflex save. [It looks like they cut and pasted the old item enchantment and didn't update it for 3.5] If the ranged weapon has an enhancement bonus, the DC increases by that amount. If he succeeds, the shield deflects the weapon. He must be aware of the attack and not flat-footed. Attempting to deflect a ranged weapon doesn’t count as an action. Exceptional ranged weapons, such as boulders hurled by giants or acid arrows, can’t be deflected. Faint abjuration; CL 5th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, shield; Price +2 bonus. Now it looks to me like this was cut-n-pasted from the 3.0 version, as it mentions the old ref dc 20 save. There is nothing in the FAQ and erreta but this wouldn't be the first time they made the cut n paste error. As printed I would default to the feat description as opposed to the magic item entry. As a DM if a pc/npc had the arrow deflection enchantment on a shield I would make it work like the feat |
| Caterane11-28-03, 01:35 PM | Anyway. That wasn`t my only argument |
| SnarkHunter11-28-03, 02:18 PM | Well then. Every other feat you mentioned gives a dodge bonus to AC. Dodge bonuses can only funtion when you are aware of your opponennt (i.e. not Flatfooted) and it mentions this very clearly in the feat, and under AC in the combat section. If they forgot to mention it, why wasn't that addressed in the errata? Agreed on the scent. Did you have any other arguments (besides 'an appeal to common sense') for why Mounted Combat can not be used Flatfooted? |
| Caterane11-28-03, 02:38 PM | Well, as we just saw they didn`t print the new "Arrow deflection" properly either. I won`t wage my money on the relianceness of the PHB |
| Prexx11-28-03, 02:39 PM | I think in this case, since the rules are so ambiguous, we need to look at the "spirit" of the rules, in order to come up with a fair interpretation. Let's look at the concepts that the rules are trying to portray. When I think of the ability the feat would grant, I think of the rider smacking away or deflecting an attack, not dodging out of the way. It wouldn't make any sense if he were dodging. If he is able to move himself and a huge horse out of the way of an attack, why can't he use the feat while he isn't mounted to just jump out of the way of any attack? It makes sense if he is just deflecting the blow. If we take into account what the rules are trying to portray, I think that it would be rather clear that the feat should not allow the rider to deflect an attack while denied dex bonus to ac. If he is unable to defend himself properly, he is also unable to defend his mount. I also think that he should not be able to deflect a touch attack. Because if he is deflecting the attack, that means by definition of deflecting, he is getting hit by the touch (not to mention, how do you deflect an insubstantial ray?). That is my take on the rules anyways. |
| Caterane11-28-03, 03:03 PM | Yeah right. Let`s see: Paladin with Mounted combat feat. - Super high saves - Super high normal Ac - Super high touch spell Ac and that even when flatfooted. How is a fighter/mage (like Ebelin) supposed to win against these odds? I can`t affect him directly due to saves, I can`t battle him in melee because of his higher Hp, higher Ac and his strong companion and he negates ranged touch spells. And now I don`t even have the chance to surprise him because mounted combat is active when flatfooted? That IS unbalanced. |
| fluiddragon11-28-03, 03:12 PM | Well, I'm not moding the fight, but if you don't know he's there and you have no way of predicting the attack, how could mounted combat allow you to negate an attack you do not know is comming? It seems well beyond the scope of the feat. Its one thing to deflect a sword blow you see coming or an arrow heading your way. Most feats or abilities that allow you to do something special list it as an ability, Mounted combat doesn't list acting flat footed, or with supre natural awareness of the attack. It is most similar to defelct arrows. 1 feat, you have to be aware of the attack for it to work. I think allowing a rider to negate a hit he can't see or hear or other wise know is coming is streatching the rules a great deal. The mounted feat chains are strong enough. They are good but they don't grant a 'spider sense'. If you throw all your abilities and feats into 1 trick no matter how strong it is, it will eventually not work for everything. If all your feats and abilities are geared for mounted combat some time some place you will be at a dissadvantage. Just the way it is. |
| SnarkHunter11-28-03, 03:25 PM | Well Cat, we don't know if they didn't print arrow deflection correctly, perhaps they thought the old version was more appropriate for an armor enhancement. Until we get an errata for the DMG we probably shouldn't assume one way or the other. Secondly you have as I see it two options. As we've already covered mounted combat does not affect the rider, so why not focus attacks on him? he has to die for you to win anyway. conversely, lets not forget that the feat (unlike deflect arrows) is not automaticly successful. If you role decent and I role poor your ranged attack will probably hit the mount. If you're really concearned well, I thought this was why people prepped True Strike anyway. If you don't like the rules try to work around them, not break them. @fluid: Your correct that mounted combat does not list working under Flatfooted conditions. Iron Will, Skill Focus, and Armor Profecieny are also not listed as working while Flatfooted. But see, the format of the feats is that they tell you when they don't function, not when they do. Baring text that says otherwise we have to assume then that a feat will work in a given situation. |
| Caterane11-28-03, 04:01 PM | Well Cat, we don't know if they didn't print arrow deflection correctly, perhaps they thought the old version was more appropriate for an armor enhancement. Until we get an errata for the DMG we probably shouldn't assume one way or the other. Snark, all I wanted to say it happened before that they missed something or forgot to print and if there are things that get really dubious if we follow the exact printing then common sense should take over. Secondly you have as I see it two options. As we've already covered mounted combat does not affect the rider, so why not focus attacks on him? he has to die for you to win anyway. conversely, lets not forget that the feat (unlike deflect arrows) is not automaticly successful. If you role decent and I role poor your ranged attack will probably hit the mount. If you're really concearned well, I thought this was why people prepped True Strike anyway. 1) Attack rider instead: How many attacks do you think I can get off before you run me through? And how many attacks do you think Skymoon needs to die? I think there`s a slight discrepancy. If Monk-bane falls, so does Skymoon. And Ebelin in the air while Skymoon on ground sounds good to me. 2) True strike: Yeah, I included that in my tactic in the case Jindl decides that Mounted combat grants you god-like awareness but first of all this is another round you have free which is a HUGE advantage. And you can just fly away after I cast True strike; lasts only 1 round. Great option. If you don't like the rules try to work around them, not break them. On the contrary: I fix them. This unbalanced interpretion of MC is broken. And obviously I am not the only one with this opinion. Note that I have a mounted combatant - The Harvester - and he would greatly benefit from this rule. Sooner or later the Harvester has ubersaves (my goal for him). If he may negate ranged touch attacks while FF, too, now that would definetaly be unfair. Again: How`s a mage supposed to beat this if he`s been robbed of his attack options? |
| MotherBast11-28-03, 04:25 PM | Well, I'm not involved in this in any way, but I thought I'd throw my 2 copper in. I agree with Cat that as written, if intrepreted literaly, MC is way to strong. However, I aslo agree, that if you go by the rules, and only by the rules, which we have done every other time on this thread, then MC works when FF. It dosen't makes sense, but a lot of the rules don't. There is no other way to interprate MC and it still be withen the rules. If you say it dosen't work FF, then you are adding your own House rule the the feat, as its not listed in the book. Is it a mistake? Maybe. Has it been corrected? No.... so untill its changed, we must play it as written. |
| sshuit11-28-03, 05:27 PM | Originally posted by Jindl Re: Travel Domain power - The freedom of movement effect cannot be activated at will. It only activates when the cleric is affected by magical effects that impede movement. Therefore it will not help you in a grapple (unless you were grappled by a magical effect like Evard's Black Tentacles or something.) -Jindl So this would mean that mundane (spider webs / tanglefoot bags) restriction of movement would not be negated by the travel domain power? |
| fluiddragon11-28-03, 05:55 PM | Hey I actually read the feat now that I have blabed all day about it. The solution is in the feat it self. from the SRD: MOUNTED COMBAT [GENERAL] Prerequisite: Ride 1 rank. Benefit: Once per round when your mount is hit in combat, you may attempt a Ride check (as a reaction) to negate the hit. The hit is negated if your Ride check result is greater than the opponent’s attack roll. (Essentially, the Ride check result becomes the mount’s Armor Class if it’s higher than the mount’s regular AC.) Special: A fighter may select Mounted Combat as one of his fighter bonus feats. The feat is a reaction, reflexive. It is similar to deflect arrows on the surface but the mechanics are much different. The feat specifies that it is a reaction. You don't have to be aware of something to have a reaction. If your eyes are closed and a doctor hits your knee with a malet you react. In some ways Mounted Combat is better than defelct arrows. You have to be aware for deflect arrows to work. Deflecting an arrow is automatic IF you are aware of the attack. It is NOT a reaction but a pro-active action. Mounted combat is different. There is a chance of failure involved. If the ride check is really low its not going to work. Defelct arrows is automatic. The advantage Mounted Combat has is that you need not be aware of the attack to the mount before it happens as it is a relfexive reactionary action. Similar end result but 2 differnt ways to do it. Ever hear of Windows, and Mac OS. They look similar and do similar things but HOW they do it is very different. Does this make Mounted Combat unbalanced? No, there are plenty of ways to get around it. 1. True Strike. 2. Multiple attacks (Scorching Ray anybody?) 3. Magic Missile 4. Fake attacks (Illusions to make the rider think he is being attacked, he uses the feat for the fake attack and you hit after he uses the feat. 5. Kamakazie familiar with a readied action to attack after the familliar. Most of us with familliars use them to deliver touch spells. How is the opponent going to know that your familliar DOESN'T have a touch spell running? 6. Fireball, Lightning bolt, other non attack roll damaging spell. In 2 minutes I came up with 6 ways to bypass the feat. Some may work better than others. If you take time to think of more I'm sure that you can find more, and more effective solutions. I don't play a charger/mounted build both of my characters will be at a significant disadvantage against these characters. But I don't think that it is unbalanced. You just have to come up with other tactics to combat this. I lost a couple fights for not using proper tactics, and not understanding how certain feats or spells worked. Sometimes we are not prepared to fight a certain build, or certain builds outclass certain other builds. The arena caters to fighter types. Without prebuffs casters are at a dissadvantage. But they make up for that with flexibility so it cancels out. A charger build can pretty much do just that. A primary caster has lots of options. They can be totaly different characters every time they fight. Gage has not used the same tactics twice. I chuckle when I read opponents tactics when they assume I will do what worked in the last round. I am striving to make original tactics and do the unexpected. That is the strength of a caster. Sometimes they get the right stuff and the tactics are good sometimes its not. Live and learn, its a game lets have fun! -fd |
| SnarkHunter11-28-03, 06:19 PM | I'm not convinced that (as a reaction) in the feat is as you've interpreted it. Consider two other, non-feat uses of the Ride skill. Stay in Saddle: You can react instantly to try to avoid falling when your mount rears or bolts unexpectedly or when you take damage. This usage does not take an action. and Soft Fall: You can react instantly to try to take no damage when you fall off a mount—when it is killed or when it falls, for example. If you fail your Ride check, you take 1d6 points of falling damage. This usage does not take an action. Now neither of these usages say they can be used while the rider is Flatfooted. But of course they don't say they can't (God I hate double negatives). Would it be reasonable to say that these couldn't be used while FF? I dare say they would be sorely missed if your mount drops in a surprise round. But if those can be allowed, does one consider them particuarly different from the Mounted Combat feat? |
| fluiddragon11-28-03, 06:32 PM | Flat Footed is not helpless it is simply a dissadvantage you incure as you have not acted yet. A monk could defelct an arrow and a bard could counter spell. You could make reactive spot checks, or a reflex save to dodge the fireball. from the srd: Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. You can’t use your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) while flat-footed. Barbarians and rogues have the uncanny dodge extraordinary ability, which allows them to avoid losing their Dexterity bonus to AC due to being flat-footed. A flat-footed character can’t make attacks of opportunity. Being flat footed does 2 and only 2 things: lose dex bonus, no making AoO's other than that everything else works as normal. Loosing your Dex bonus to AC is not flat footed. The conditions are similar and over lap but are 2 different things. Also remeber that in a combat round both peope are constantly doing things. They don't wait till the other guy acts then take turns. Alot happes simultaneously or close to it. For game reasons we break it down into actins and take turns to play, but thats not how it would look if we were watching it on TV. If you won initiative you would be just a bt quicker on the draw than the other guy, so you get a small advantage. edit: Now neither of these usages say they can be used while the rider is Flatfooted. But of course they don't say they can't (God I hate double negatives). Would it be reasonable to say that these couldn't be used while FF? I dare say they would be sorely missed if your mount drops in a surprise round. But if those can be allowed, does one consider them particuarly different from the Mounted Combat feat? So I would say yes you can use bothwhile flat footed. It seems pretty straight forward. -fd |
| SnarkHunter11-28-03, 06:36 PM | Right so if you can use both of those while flatfooted, why not the Mounted Combat? How is a 'reaction', different here from 'no-action'? |
| fluiddragon11-28-03, 06:41 PM | Originally posted by sshuit So this would mean that mundane (spider webs / tanglefoot bags) restriction of movement would not be negated by the travel domain power? From the SRD: Freedom of Movement Abjuration Level: Brd 4, Clr 4, Drd 4, Luck 4, Rgr 4 Components: V, S, M, DF Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal or touch Target: You or creature touched Duration: 10 min./level Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless) Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web. The subject automatically succeeds on any grapple check made to resist a grapple attempt, as well as on grapple checks or Escape Artist checks made to escape a grapple or a pin. The spell also allows the subject to move and attack normally while underwater, even with slashing weapons such as axes and swords or with bludgeoning weapons such as flails, hammers, and maces, provided that the weapon is wielded in the hand rather than hurled. The freedom of movement spell does not, however, allow water breathing. Material Component: A leather thong, bound around the arm or a similar appendage. It works on anything that would impede your movement. There is a debate on the spells board about this spell. Some people feel it is overpowered. I think it is over powered, but not in a game breaking way. If the duration was 1rd/level as writen it would be ok, but immune to grapples and a good duration I think it is over powered. But hey there is always dispell magic! edit: The domain power mimics this spell in every way but the duration. |
| fluiddragon11-28-03, 06:44 PM | Originally posted by SnarkHunter Right so if you can use both of those while flatfooted, why not the Mounted Combat? How is a 'reaction', different here from 'no-action'? You CAN use Mounted Combat flat footed. My earlier arguments today were wrong, I tried to clarify that with the last post. And you can use it when your opponent is invisible. The ONLY thing flat footed does is deny you a dex bonus and make you unable to take AoO's nothing else, flat footed is not helpless or held or paralysed. You simply react like the doctor hiting you knee. Or a martial artist blocking a blow without thinking about it. |
| Jindl11-28-03, 06:46 PM | @Fluid - Re-read the triggering conditions for the travel domain power. It only activates to counter magical impediments. I know the spell will work against grapples and non-magical impediments too, but the domain power only works against magic. -Jindl |
| fluiddragon11-28-03, 06:56 PM | Originally posted by Jindl @Fluid - Re-read the triggering conditions for the travel domain power. It only activates to counter magical impediments. I know the spell will work against grapples and non-magical impediments too, but the domain power only works against magic. -Jindl from srd; TRAVEL DOMAIN Granted Powers: For a total time per day of 1 round per cleric level you possess, you can act normally regardless of magical effects that impede movement as if you were affected by the spell freedom of movement. This effect occurs automatically as soon as it applies, lasts until it runs out or is no longer needed, and can operate multiple times per day (up to the total daily limit of rounds). This granted power is a supernatural ability. The text is alittle ambiguous. It does seem to say that it only effects magical effects, then it contridicts itself by saying as if affected by a freedom of movement spell. As its written, it looks like it works like this, let me know if I'm wrong. 1. You cannot activate it, it activates automatically when you encounter a magical movement impeding effect. 2. Grapples, dense underbrush, tanglefoot bags and Big Mother !@$&(*#! spider webs do not trigger this effect and thus the domain power does not activate, because it only activates when a magical effect is encountered. 3. If you were hit with a web spell THEN your power activates and if you were then grappled you would automatically win the opposed grapple check to escape, after you excape and stumbled into a giant mundane web you could move freely even as you are plunged into water and can still move freely untill the domain power runs out. But you need a magical movement impeding effect to trigger the power. IF this is right the domain power does not seem over powered. |
| SnarkHunter11-28-03, 07:00 PM | Oh! Well then Fluid that would make your previous most rather more sensible. Thanks for the clarification, I can have trouble letting an argument go ;). |
| fluiddragon11-28-03, 07:12 PM | Originally posted by SnarkHunter Oh! Well then Fluid that would make your previous most rather more sensible. Thanks for the clarification, I can have trouble letting an argument go ;). Me too, even when its rather dangerous to argue with the guy who's moding your next fight :D It helps if you read the rules before you start arguing about them too. Next time I'll read first then post! |
| SnarkHunter11-28-03, 08:13 PM | Speaking of which Fight posted! (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1950881#post1950881) Wow, sorcerer's in melee. that's something I never thought I'd see. and didn't ;). |
| MotherBast11-28-03, 11:35 PM | Hey Gage, nice work on that last fight. You know, being that Gage and Candy are the two best looking gladiators in this arena, I wonder what a fight between the two of them would look like. Gage: "I dont want to hit you my dear, your much too pretty!" Candy: "Why don't we blow this arena bit and hit the High life in the local palace? What do ya say?" |
| KerlanRayne11-29-03, 12:14 AM | Originally posted by SnarkHunter Wow, sorcerer's in melee. that's something I never thought I'd see. and didn't ;). Tricky, Tricky Snarkie! By the way, I don't think that multiple castings of False Life stack with each other. KerlanRayne |
| SnarkHunter11-29-03, 12:18 AM | I wasn't sure either, but couldn't find anything in the rules to disallow it. since he never took damage afterwords, I guess it wasn't an issue. As far as 2nd level sorc spells go, that's a lovely one though. I'd also like to point out once again, the startling effectiveness of spontaneous casters in our little forum. With that many shocking grasps and invisibilities...its hard to go wrong. |
| Mercy11-29-03, 12:19 AM | I've finished the fight between G. D. Bébit vs. Cronk The Destroyer, I'd appreciate any criticisms. Has it been decided if the Tatto Focus feat is legal in the arena? I know it is listed in the DMG, but it also indicates that this is a Forgotten Realms feat. Also, when figuring the skill points for a character are we to consider the age enhancements to Int when figuring the first level skill points? I don’t believe we should, but that is just my opinion. |
| sshuit11-29-03, 12:29 AM | My only problem with the Tattoo focus feat is it is something only given to people who are on the path to become a red wizard.. (Like a red wizard initiate or something.) Since Only humans can be red wizards, it would make sense to me that only humans can get the tattoo focus feat. sshuit Originally posted by Mercy I've finished the fight between G. D. Bébit vs. Cronk The Destroyer, I'd appreciate any criticisms. Has it been decided if the Tatto Focus feat is legal in the arena? I know it is listed in the DMG, but it also indicates that this is a Forgotten Realms feat. Also, when figuring the skill points for a character are we to consider the age enhancements to Int when figuring the first level skill points? I don’t believe we should, but that is just my opinion. |
| Prexx11-29-03, 12:47 AM | Would the total cover granted by a tower shield block a charge attack? I would assume so, but it's always better to be sure. I need to know for the fight I am modding. |
| sshuit11-29-03, 12:56 AM | Yep Total cover makes it impossible to attack normally you could however attack to sunder the shield I think or overrun / mounted overrun with impunity since you cannot attack at all if you use a tower shield for cover. Therefore no AoO's other opinions? |
| Draloth11-29-03, 02:29 AM | Or you could move around to a side that's not covered? I don't think the character can automatically move the shield to keep it between himself and the other person at all times. |
| Prexx11-29-03, 03:19 AM | That is true, he could move to the side and attack, but if he moved to the side, he would not be able to charge, because charging requires you to move in a straight line. |
| Draloth11-29-03, 03:22 AM | Ah...good ;) , I'd much rather not be charged, heh. |
| fluiddragon11-29-03, 03:38 AM | False Life, They grant temporary hit points not a named bonus. These do stack with each other and with temp hit points gained from other spells, like aid. In no place that I have found does it say that temp hitpoints don't stack. In a campaign you could get into trouble as the temp hitpoints dissapear after the duration, and if you don't get healing you could wind up in trouble, but this is different I just have to survive till the other guy dies. Other spells specify when the effects don't stack, they say in the spell description that it overlaps. Most casters would cast the spell as healing or to get a slight edge in combat. Wizards would use this spell much more sparingly. Gage is a test case for the sorcerer, and one of the things I am trying to illustraight with him is that the number of spells and the spontaneous casting combined make for a powerfull opponent. A wizard generally won't memorize more than 1 or 2 of these spells. As they will need the slots for something else. Sorcerers on the other hand don't have to worry how many times they cast it as they have slots to blow. I only used 2 in the fight so I would have more slots available for invisibility. @ Snark: The limit of +10 hit points is for the level. you get 1d10 [+1 hit points per level. The 10 hit point cap refers to the +1 per level not the total. A 5th level caster gets 6-15 temp hit points, a 10th level caster gets 11-20 hit points and a 20th level caster also gets 11-20 hit points. The 'bonus' +1/level caps at 10 not the total. from SRD: You harness the power of unlife to grant yourself a limited ability to avoid death. While this spell is in effect, you gain temporary hit points equal to 1d10 +1 per caster level (maximum +10). This spell is custom made for sorcerers, who will benifit from it much more than wizards or any other caster. And with out any core prestige classes they can get into without multi classing and with NO OTHER bonus as they go up in levels besides spells they can use something that seems made for them. Frankly any other class can't get the milage out of this spell. It will cost them slots and or scribing costs for scrolls, as this spell you really want to cast at the highest level possible, it will be expensive for a scroll or wand. What you will really have to watch out for is all the Silent Spells I will be launching with improved invisibility and an elixar of sneaking or elvish boots. And thats only 1/2 of the combo wait till he hits 8th level and you will see some seriously cool tactics. |
| Draloth11-29-03, 03:40 AM | Targ vrs Stinky posted. You can find it here. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1953201#post1953201) Do let me know if I messed anything up, it was enjoyable to run and write it up, I'll be sure to do it more in the future. ~ Draloth |
| Caterane11-29-03, 04:43 AM | @Draloth: Hey, thanks for the spoiler. If everybody would be so kind I wouldn`t be bothered with reading the fights. And a sleeping person gets a -10 Listen check to wake up every time the opponoment moves. |
| Moherajikuyx11-29-03, 05:01 AM | Yes Draloth, let's not write the results here, it spoils the reading. Originally posted by Mercy Has it been decided if the Tatto Focus feat is legal in the arena? I know it is listed in the DMG, but it also indicates that this is a Forgotten Realms feat. No, it is specified as a non core feat, like the PrC, right in the book. Now I'm going to read the fights! :) |
| Moherajikuyx11-29-03, 05:33 AM | indeed! Still, I'm convinced that a mage could have done the same, and that in a few levels, all those spell slots will be unused, as the fights will last fewer and fewer turns. Maybe a strat for the sorc will be to try to spend more time? Anyways, now that you guys convinced me that it's not the spontaneous spellcasters that need a power up - the fault is the prepared's, monday I'm going to make my popularity - don' t joke ;) - drop under soil with the announce of a new turn in the prepared casters experimentation... Don't update mages, clerics and druids till monday. Ta da da daaaaan... A pair of glitches. Snark, fly gives good maneuverability so only half speed up (not an issue in the fight). Mercy, there's no no-pinpointing for spot: it must beat by 20 to see (again, not an issue) Draloth - I believe you were directed to do the CdG actually: Load my crossbow, move up to Stinky and cast Shocking Grasp (CDG 4d6 dmg)The CdG was 4d6 because it is a critical, doubling the spell dmg. Again, not an issue in the fight. I'm harvesting now... Cat did you pay for the bone dragon? It's 25 gp a HD for animating dead. |
| Caterane11-29-03, 05:53 AM | Huh? Since when do we use Material components? Well, then scratch one of the Dispel magic scrolls I bought |
| Moherajikuyx11-29-03, 06:02 AM | Originally posted by Caterane Huh? Since when do we use Material components? :uh-huh: Where does this one come from? Hrmmm. I gotta check the other undead now. Who was it? Bilo? |
| Caterane11-29-03, 06:14 AM | Bruno. Does this mean that I have to pay 250 gp every time I cast Stoneskin??? There are many other spells with expansive components. Come on, as a caster you already spend most of your cash on copying spells. And no one, in not even one single fight and on no sheet has someone mentioned something like "Paid 300 Gp for this spell I cast last fight" or a moderators note like "You cannot cast this spell because you don`t have enough money" or my favorite "I can`t find the spider legs on your sheet so no casting of Web" |
| Moherajikuyx11-29-03, 06:21 AM | OF COURSE you have to pay! Bruno paid the material component. COME ON! *edit* and for the smelly bat guano and stuff under 1 gp, that's what the spell components pouch is for. |
| Caterane11-29-03, 06:29 AM | :smirk: Ok, the Dispel magic scroll then :( |
| Moherajikuyx11-29-03, 06:31 AM | Ops, edited the post above in the meantime. Magagumo, I *hope* Bruno paid the undead. I think so bvecause you listed the material component, but for that kind of complicated buylists, you shall really write the prices, list of stuff bought and so on. |
| Prexx11-29-03, 07:22 AM | Dorrin vs Sir Rodger is posted! Enjoy! :) This the first fight I have moderated, I think I did things right, but please feel free to point out any mistakes. |
| MotherBast11-29-03, 07:44 AM | In the wizard vs. goblin fight, the sleep spell should have taken a full round to cast, so the goblin should have been able to fire his bow for a chance to disrupt the spell. Might have made a difference, but as his next attack missed, I don't think it would have. |
| fluiddragon11-29-03, 09:05 AM | Hey folks I have a question. If you are a non caster and have a ring/weapon of spell storing or counter spells can you pay to have a caster cast the desired spell into the item? I know we don't allow the purchasing of spell caster services but this is alittle different than having buffs put on permenantly, or prebuffing. Plus you have to actually buy the item so its not a freebie, whats the consensus on this? -fd |
| Mercy11-29-03, 09:12 AM | Good fights. Daraloth - Mo already pointed it out, but Targ did want to CDG Stinky with his Shocking Grasp spell. Regarding, the Spot of an invisible creature. I attempted to follow the DMG Glossary entry on Invisibility (pg 295). It list the Spot DC of 20 against an active creature within 30’ to know that a creature is present, but it later list a “(+20 DC) to pinpoint” the creatures location. I believe that indicates you need to make a Spot DC 20 to know that the creature is present within 30’ but you need to make Spot DC 40 in order to take an offensive action against the creature. I might have been unclear in the fight I moderated, but the indent was to indicate that the invisible creatures presence was know, just that it was not pinpointed. The Helpless condition actually drops the creatures Dex to 0 (-5 modifier) so if you attacked the Helpless creature the attacker rolls against an AC of 10 base -5 dex +/- other modifiers such as armor, prone, etc… In addition the attacker would get a +4 to hit the Helpless creature if it was a melee attack. I’m referencing the DMG Glossary on Helpless (pg 301). |
| SnarkHunter11-29-03, 11:31 AM | The way I've always run invisble creatures is as follows. To notice the presence of an active invisible creature spot DC:20 as normal. To pinpoint an active invisible creature, use a contested role between spot vs. hide and/or Listen vs. Move Silently. The +20 from invisibility is added to the hide check, but if you can beat that you spot them. Moon-moon for example, when he was dependent on the potions to summon had a hide check as follows :Rolled #-5armorcheck+20 hide. Making him much easier to spot when invisible then say, Bilo :D. The other way to pinpoint an invisble creature is by Listen checks-but then they still have an effective +20 to their Move Silently check because you need to beat the check by 20 to pinpoint their location. Basicly unless you max your spot/listen, with a high wis, its unlikely you'll pinpoint an invisible person. @Fluid: based on the poll in the voting thread looks like you can't. On the other hand I think rings are a little different. You have to spend an action to activate them for one. On the fights: When Dorrin Raged shouldn't his AC have been a 19? Also, a question about metamagiced scrolls: If a caster buys an extended Mage Armor or some such at an 8th level caster, would that count as a pregame buff? |
| Prexx11-29-03, 11:41 AM | Doh! You are right Snark, didn't catch that one. Thanks :) *smacks himself on the wrist* (Bad Prexx! No cookie for you!) |
| Caterane11-29-03, 11:50 AM | @Snark: If we allow for custom-made scrolls, this is - of course - possible. The same if you use an extend rod. That`s the reason I voted against higher level scrolls because that would make metamagic feats completely obsolete. Who would take extend spell if he can just buy a scroll instead. The metamagic rods already take away too much from the feats. |
| Mercy11-29-03, 12:39 PM | Are we allowed to copy scrolls in our spellbooks? Here's how I see the process working. 1) Buy Scroll 2) Decipher Scroll (done automatically with Read Magic) 3) Studying the spell takes 1 day 4) Make the Spellcraft Check (DC 15 + spell's level) 5) Write the spell in the spellbook The issue is with step 4. Would this be like the crafting your own equipment in the Gladiators thread, which means you must be able to make the DC by taking 10 on the roll. Any thoughts? |
| Jindl11-29-03, 12:39 PM | RE: Paying to put a spell into a spellstoring ring/weapon or ring of counterspells. I think this is fine. This is not a prebuff type situation, it is more like purchasing an item. I have no problem with people using these items, and it is necessary to have a spell put in the item to use it. Therefore it should be okay to pay to have a spell cast into one of these items. Note: the limitations and cost of the items should keep this under control. RE: Invisible spotting. Aye, Snark has the right of it. His way is correct, AFAIK. RE: Material components. Yep, Bruno paid for the material components to create George (I know because I checked when I mod'd that fight.) I think costly material components must be paid for before the fight (costly is more than 1 gp). The cheap material components are provided at no charge by the arena. RE: Metamagic and scrolls. I don't think the ability to buy metamagic scrolls makes the metamagic feats obsolete. The Elder will be taking more metamagic feats either way. And buying extended versions of your prefight buffs as scrolls gets very expensive, very fast. An extended 8th lvl mage armor scroll costs 8x2x25 = 400 gp. Or if you have the feat you can just do it yourself. Extended 8th lvl greater magic fang = 8x4x25 = 800 gp. This is pretty expensive when you could just cast the spell yourself. The gp cost will ensure that people don't buy too much. Learning a metamagic feat can save you a lot of money, just like the item creation feats do. RE: Copying scrolls into spellbooks. Aye, Mercy you have the right of it. But if you check our spellbook toting characters, they all have spellcraft levels high enough to automatically do this (heck, the Elder has a +20 on his spellcraft check... almost epic capabilities at 8th lvl ;) ) -Jindl |
| barrel_master11-29-03, 12:51 PM | Originally posted by fluiddragon Hey folks I have a question. If you are a non caster and have a ring/weapon of spell storing or counter spells can you pay to have a caster cast the desired spell into the item? I know we don't allow the purchasing of spell caster services but this is alittle different than having buffs put on permenantly, or prebuffing. Plus you have to actually buy the item so its not a freebie, whats the consensus on this? -fd I think we are allowed to have magic users cast spells into rings. |
| Prexx11-29-03, 01:09 PM | Originally posted by Mercy Are we allowed to copy scrolls in our spellbooks? Here's how I see the process working. 1) Buy Scroll 2) Decipher Scroll (done automatically with Read Magic) 3) Studying the spell takes 1 day 4) Make the Spellcraft Check (DC 15 + spell's level) 5) Write the spell in the spellbook The issue is with step 4. Would this be like the crafting your own equipment in the Gladiators thread, which means you must be able to make the DC by taking 10 on the roll. It sounds like you have a very firm grasp on the process. One thing I would like to add, there is an additional cost during step 5. It costs 100gp/spell level in order to scribe a spell into your spellbook. For more information about the process, consult the Players Handbook v3.5 pg. 179 [edit, added following section to save scroll space] Another question for everybody. Does mounted combat allow a rider to deflect a touch attack against his mount? I read through the entire discussion on the mounted combat feat, and I don't think we came to an agreement on how it should be handled. Here is my take on it. I think that the "negation" of an attack granted by the feat should be qualified as a block/deflection, not as a dodge. Much like the way a warrior moves his shield to block an incomming attack against himself, he moves his weapon/shield and blocks an attack against his mount. Thus the feat would work even if flat footed. However, it would not block touch spells, because the act of deflecting would imply that the rider is being hit with the effect. Here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1955534#post1955534) is a link to a full discussion about it, with examples. |
| sloisel11-29-03, 04:25 PM | Mercy said... G. D. Bébit has 40 skill ranks I believe he should have 36. 28 ranks at first since you can’t count your age bonuses for the first level (Emphasis added.) Is that so? What if G. D. Bébit (a.k.a. Sleeping Beauty) was asleep in a crystal cage from age 10 to age 299, at which point prince charming kissed him and woke him up? I'm just asking to see if this is a rule or otherwise the concensus. You said "can't" so this suggests to me that my proposed fairytale background is somehow banned from the arena? Sébastien Loisel |
| MotherBast11-29-03, 04:52 PM | Hey MadCowTemp, I'm wanting to run the Lora vs. Faldion fight today, and as yet have not tactics from you. I know I've ran every fight Lora's ever had and all, but still, I'd like some input from you, since its your character and all...... JK btw.... Really though, try to get me some tactics today if you read this. |
| sloisel11-29-03, 05:03 PM | Originally posted by Caterane And no one, in not even one single fight and on no sheet has someone mentioned something like "Paid 300 Gp for this spell I cast last fight" Actually, you have to buy it before the fight. If it's not on your character sheet, that's right, you don't have it. Any M component without a listed cost is assumed to be in your component pouch. This is core rules, see PHB 174, components. Some salient extracts: "A spell's components are what you must do or possess to cast it. [...] [W]hen a material or focus component is expensive, then the components are important. [...] Unless a cost is given for a material component, the cost is negligible." Also see PHB 140, Cast a Spell: "To cast a spell with a material (M) [...] component, you have to have the proper materials, as described by the spell. [...] For material components and focuses whose costs are not listed, you can assume that you have them if you have your spell component pouch." Lastly, there's also PHB 130, Spell Component Pouch: "A spellcaster with a spell component pouch is assumed to have all the material components and focuses needed for spellcasting, except for those components that have a specific cost, divine focuses and focuses that wouldn't fit in a pouch [...]" Sébastien Loisel |
| fluiddragon11-29-03, 05:03 PM | @Prexx Mounted Combat can be used to negate a hit regardless if your opponent is invisible or hiding. And regardless if you are flatt footed. It is a reaction to the attack. In the feat it states that it is a reaction. Mounted combat is most similar to Deflex Arrows. Mounted Combat: -You do not have to be aware of the attack. -It is NOT automatic your Ride check has to be better than the attack roll. -Can be used flat footed and against invisible/hiding foes. Deflect Arrows: -You HAVE to be aware fo the attack, will not work if your attacker is invisible/hiding. -It is automatic when you know about the attack. -Can also be used flat footed as long as you are aware of the attack. |
| SnarkHunter11-29-03, 05:06 PM | @Prexx we had already covered mounted combat and ranged attacks in this thread some 5-10 pages ago. In fact I started that post for just that reason. We had decided then, and you've given no particular reason to change that decision that mounted combat could be used to negate a ranged touch or any other kind of attack. @sloisel, I don't see why ypu wouldn't get full skill points for your int. I'm pretty sure Bruno and Elder did too. @Mo: If you're planning what I think you're planning for prepared casters I can only advise strenously against it. |
| barrel_master11-29-03, 05:29 PM | ^Agreed with snark. |
| fluiddragon11-29-03, 06:03 PM | Running the Hurtz vs Brakin fight now. No revisions of tactics will be accepted at this point. I'm taking my time with this and it may not be posted till late monday. Both Characters have very detailed tactics with contingencies. I'm going to do my best to stay true to the tactics and run a good fight. It should be lots of fun. So an up front appology in advance for any delays. I just want to make sure that the fight is run well. This is the highest level fight I've run yet and I want it to be a good one! -fd |
| Draloth11-29-03, 06:26 PM | Thanks for the corrections, as to spotting an invisible person-I followed the rules as in the SRDs for that, however due to the pillar Stinky only had one chance to attempt, which he failed. As to the Sleep taking one round-does the invisibility break upon start of casting or actual end in which the action against a person is taken? I was interpreting it as end of cast. Edit: So CDG=Coup de Grace...well, sadly I never figured that out from that acronym-took my friend who knows alot more about DnD then I do a bit to realize it as well. I would suggest spelling out important things like that fully just in case, heh. Thanks ~Dral |
| Jindl11-29-03, 06:36 PM | Originally posted by SnarkHunter @Prexx we had already covered mounted combat and ranged attacks in this thread some 5-10 pages ago. In fact I started that post for just that reason. We had decided then, and you've given no particular reason to change that decision that mounted combat could be used to negate a ranged touch or any other kind of attack. I have sat and listened to the long discussion of mounted combat (which has been really helpful, thanks!) And my final resolve is that mounted combat is primarily a reactionary attempt by the rider to guide his mount to dodge a percieved threat. At the same time, it is also guiding ones mount in the safest possible course, ie. not exposing any area to attack. As a result, I think that the ride check can replace armor class regardless of the rider's awareness of the attacker, and that this replacement of AC can occur against any sort of attack where an attack roll is made. However, I note that in many of the tactics, the player does not list when to use mounted combat (ie. only when the familiar attacks, or only when the druid attacks, or against the first attack every round, etc.) As a result, I will have the feat attempted against the first attack every round, as a default setting. Tactics of course, will supercede this. Originally posted by SnarkHunter @sloisel, I don't see why ypu wouldn't get full skill points for your int. I'm pretty sure Bruno and Elder did too. Indeed, nothing in the rules says that you cannot begin as a 1st level character, already middle or old aged. Thus your starting skill points and feats would in fact, take advantage of any age modifications to ability scores. Originally posted by SnarkHunter @Mo: If you're planning what I think you're planning for prepared casters I can only advise strenously against it. Just like barrel_master, I agree with Snark. Modifying the preparation of spells is a very bad thing. -Jindl |
| Draloth11-29-03, 06:49 PM | Thanks for running the fight Prexxx, I must say that I'm a little curious about whether or not a paladin could ride around in circles like that to avoid a "raging" opponant, especially since the paladin shouldn't know that he's raging per se. Oh well, don't know if that would have had any impact on the fight, but as my friend said: "if it's really an arena (gladiatorial combat type of stuff), you wouldn't run away." ~Dral's somewhat biased view |
| fluiddragon11-29-03, 07:01 PM | Just like barrel_master, I agree with Snark. Modifying the preparation of spells is a very bad thing. -Jindl Me too. barrel_master and I are both playing successfull sorcerers Gage is 6th and Octavian is 6th or 7th if he wins the next match. We would have the most to gain from a change to the way casters prepared spells work. And niether of us want the change. I am not even playing a prepared caster right now. I took Xaverr out and am building a new sorcerer right now based on what I learned from playing Gage. I liked it so much that I am making a 2nd character despite some of the draw backs of the class. Had I known what spells Curugar was preparing before hand I would have totally dominated in the match Gage fought with him, as I would had a very good idea of what your tactics are. Same with my fight with buttmunch, which I lost, due to my bad tactics. If I had known what spells he prepared I would have won that match barring rolling incredibly low. I like it the way it is, despite a perceived imbalance, My characters have everything to gain from a change and I don't want it. I'm very creative and I think that with proper spell selection a sorcerer can over come any imbalance in the classes. I think wizards are the toughest opponents for a sorcerer to face only because of the sheer number of options they have. Spontaneous casting is a HUGE bonus. Just wait till you see Gage at 8th & 9th level. I've run some test fights with my build at 8th and the only class that was able to do much was a wizard that was able to counter all my specific moves. And Gage isn't as optimized as he could be. I am finding ways to bring the sorcerers power (more spells) to bear. In my fight with Tomar, who had a good attack bonus with a good bow I dominated the combat and controled the time and pace of the match. And I haven't exausted 1/2 of my bag of tricks yet. My new character with a level of ranger is going to open up a vast number of new strategies and options, and will be quite powerfull once he starts his Eldritch Knight levels. So please don't change it. Let me prove prepared casting is no match for spontaneous casting with a creative player. Let the prepared casters do thier thing and I'll take them down! -- insert evil laugh:smirk: --- -fd |
| Moherajikuyx11-29-03, 07:09 PM | :) See? I was right, my popularity drops. And I didn't even say you the change... You guys are prevented... Originally posted by SnarkHunter @Mo: If you're planning what I think you're planning for prepared casters I can only advise strenously against it. Sorry, wrong guess :) Originally posted by fluiddragon barrel_master and I are both playing successfull sorcerers [...]We would have the most to gain from a change to the way casters prepared spells work How can you tell? You don't know how it will change. And anyways it's completely wrong: all the other characters will gain. Wait till monday. And give me my experimentation. We'll get back if it proves wrong. On another note: Originally posted by Draloth Edit: So CDG=Coup de Grace...well, sadly I never figured that out from that acronym I wasn't clear enough: you did a good job, that was only a minor glitch that wouldn't have changed anything. And now, back to the fight... It's going WAAAYYY longer than both prevented. |
| fluiddragon11-29-03, 07:53 PM | @Mo Would you change my email address on the roster to fluid (at) fluiddragon dot com I set up a new address to keep this separate from work. |
| sloisel11-29-03, 09:17 PM | No, it is specified as a non core feat, like the PrC, right in the book. My DMG doesn't say "this class is non-core" or "this feat is non-core." Besides, I can't be a Red Wizard, because I'm not human (even though I am from Thay.) If I couldn't take the feat, I wouldn't have made a specialist. So you guys decide if I can have the feat or not, and let me know. Sébastien Loisel |
| fluiddragon11-29-03, 09:33 PM | Post the feat as some of us like me are cheap and don't have the DMG! |
| LLMadCow11-29-03, 09:38 PM | @Motherbast - McTemplate should be e-mailing you tactics this evening. I sent him an IM and reminded him. I just know he said he was busy moving or some such. I find something very suspicious... LLMadCow - Joins the WebCommunity. Then MadCowTemplate shows up... LLMadCow - Joins the Core Arena Tournament. Then MadCowTemplate joins the tournament... LLMadCow - Anmnounces he is moving. Then MadCowTemplate moves somewhere... I am leary that someone is modeling their life AFTER ME! I must beware of my surroundings. |
| Moherajikuyx11-29-03, 09:52 PM | Click the tired vomiting guy: :drool: (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1958083#post1958083) to read the Harvester vs. Octavian. I hope no one gets angry: I did some errors for sure in almost 100 rounds. sloisel, it says it's setting specific, which is exactly as non core. |
| MotherBast11-29-03, 11:08 PM | Good fight MO, one error though that wouldn't have really affected the fight but is worth pointing out. On Harvester's first dispell attempt, he dispelled the alter self, yet it remained on Octavian. Harvester then dispelled it again on his second dispell attempt unless I was reading the fight entirely incorrectly. No real impact on the fight as I see it, but there it is. I say again, good fight. Sound tactics on both parts. |
| Prexx11-29-03, 11:50 PM | Originally posted by Draloth Thanks for running the fight Prexxx, I must say that I'm a little curious about whether or not a paladin could ride around in circles like that to avoid a "raging" opponant, especially since the paladin shouldn't know that he's raging per se. Oh well, don't know if that would have had any impact on the fight, but as my friend said: "if it's really an arena (gladiatorial combat type of stuff), you wouldn't run away." ~Dral's somewhat biased view It stated in Sir Rodger's tactics to "soften him up" and run away firing arrows at Dorrin until he was out of arrows. Your tactics stated to rage against a ranged opponent. I think you would have been much more effective if your tactics would have been "rage just before entering melee". |
| sloisel11-30-03, 01:58 AM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx [COLOR=deeppink] sloisel, it says it's setting specific, which is exactly as non core. Whatever. Consider that character retired. Sébastien Loisel |
| MadCowTemplate11-30-03, 03:30 AM | LORA'S TACTICS SENT Sorry for the late tactics, I forgot in the bustle of my move. I didn't look if you ran the fight before I sent them, but there they are. We have to be out of our current aprtmnt by "End of day" Sunday, Nov. 30 ... today. We're about half done. ... I'll hopefully be able to make it through this and have my computer set up in time to run the fight assigned to me tonight. See ya on the other side. |
| Caterane11-30-03, 04:14 AM | I finished my work, too. I especially like this fight very much. Hope you enjoy reading it as I enjoyed writting it. Iron the Panza vs Mara Thunderstorm (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1960008#post1960008) Yours Cat Edit: The link doesn`t function on my computer but I can`t detect anything wrong. Guess you`ll find the fight. I will read the Harvester vs Octavian now. |
| Caterane11-30-03, 04:57 AM | Puh, read the fight. Not wanting to give away anything so I give my 2 cents later that day. |
| Moherajikuyx11-30-03, 05:51 AM | MB, the second dispel dispelled fly, unless somewhere I left an use of the memorized dispel written; but it was an error of the draft. I just noticed I didn't roll for the invisibility... I'm doing it now, the fight's unfinished... I don't think the result may change though. *edit* Urgh! The dispel in round 64 should not have been there... So much for working at 3:40. It never happened, and it was a healing: I don't know how I must have changed versions. I changed it remembering that Cat wanted to heal under 30 hps, but it looks like he just missed that turn... Oh well, on 87 turns, it was not a huge difference. |
| Galamdring11-30-03, 07:15 AM | Wow!!! Well done caterane, great story... Even though i lost... :) |
| Moherajikuyx11-30-03, 07:39 AM | Yes it's lovely! I was going to post some roleplay here, but I'll post in the appropriate thread instead. |
| MotherBast11-30-03, 07:48 AM | The Iron vs. Mara fight is IMHO, the single best piece of storyline to go with one of these fights ever. I love how all these characters, most of which are just stats, are beginning to actually take on lives and personalities of there own, dispite the fact there creators have very little control over how they are roleplayed. This story has my vote to be the new best stroy in the arena. In real life, I am a writer, though you might not be able to tell from my grammer. Cat, you truly have talent. I would not be suprised to learn you had work published somewhere. |
| fluiddragon11-30-03, 08:24 AM | Wow Cat awesome story! |
| fluiddragon11-30-03, 09:57 AM | Gage is updated and ready to go. Dragonrain is updated and ready to go. edit: Rito has been challanged on the roleplay thread |
| fluiddragon11-30-03, 12:53 PM | Brackin vs Hurtz is posted (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1961553#post1961553) This fight was shorter than I expected. It was also pretty straight forward. I hope I didn't make any mistakes. |
| barrel_master11-30-03, 01:13 PM | Congrats to the mods that have run their fights... especialy Moh who ran a very long one. Regarding that, some of the fights here are, in my opinion, a little too long. And even though many of them are still manageable, I'm afraid that a time will come when somebody (a player) will demand that their fight be run for over 100+ rounds in their tactics... may I perpose that we have some sort of cap and that say, whom ever has more HP's at the end of the fight wins. Mind you this may be completely uneccessary as the situation has not come up yet... |
| Jindl11-30-03, 02:10 PM | RE: Harvester vs Octavian - Not to be critical, because I'm sure that was a tough task to run that fight, but there are a lot of errors. Some are minor, some are major, most have to do with how spells operate. I'm gonna try to put together a list of things, so hopefully these mistakes won't repeat in the future. 1. Invis and mirror image don't stack. If someone is rolling a miss chance for invisibility, then they don't have to worry about the mirror image. In round 86, the Harvester charged, made his mirror image roll, and failed the invisibility roll. Both checks should not have been made, only the invisibility check. 2. Detect Magic doesn't do everything you think it does. First off, it only detects things you can visibly see. Therefore, you cannot use detect magic to "see invisible" things. See invisibility is a second level spell, not a cantrip. Nor can you use detect magic when you are blinded. It only works within your visible range. This should be pretty clear. Also, detect magic cannot determine which mirror image is the real caster. All it can do is detect that an illusion spell is running (although anyone who can cast detect magic probably already noticed the 4 images attacking him.) Third, it has a duration of concentration, which means that you must use a standard action to continue it. So if you attack or cast another spell, your detect magic effect ends. In this fight, detect magic was grossly overpowered (and run much like the spell Arcane Sight, which is 3rd lvl btw.) <I'll add more later, in another post. Its tough picking through the fight, trying to understand why Alter Self didn't disappear when it was dispelled, why Knellstriker never attacked the sorc in melee when it could easily scent him or later when it made the save vs glitterdust and wasn't blinded, etc, etc. > |
| Jindl11-30-03, 02:27 PM | @Cat - You also have a big mistake in the Mara vs Iron fight. Please note that inflict wounds spells allow a will save for half damage... Mara would be entitled to like 4 saves and could have taken much less damage (and maybe survived that crit.) With her save at +5 (+7 when raging) and the DC of 13+spell level, she had good odds to pass those saves, and that could have shifted the fight for her. -Jindl |
| Jindl11-30-03, 02:34 PM | @ Fluid - I didn't want you to feel left out, so I'll note a mistake you made in the Brackin vs Hurtz fight (though you already mentioned it yourself...) Yes, Grapples can crit. If you can take weapon focus in it, and it deals hitpoint damage, then it is capable of critting. Unless otherwise noted its a 20/x2. -Jindl |
| SnarkHunter11-30-03, 02:50 PM | you know Jindle for all your postings I seem to recall that you have a fight to finish ;). Also I seem to recall back in the 3.0 the Sage saying you could use detect magic to find an invisible person, I'll go look it up anyway. Edit: Found it. Detect magic allows you to know the location of an aura, invisible or not, after 3 rounds of concentrating. It takes a standard action on each of those rounds to discover the location, and the 60ft cone most follow the subject for all three rounds. Since the subject is invisble, there is no line of sight, and so you can not use detect magic to discern what school of magic is involved for individual spells. Detect Evil and similar function a little differently. Lacking line of sight one can only discern the location of the creature or item. @Sloisel, you could replace it with spell focus I suppose. |
| fluiddragon11-30-03, 06:59 PM | My iconic character: Fluiddragon (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1501740#post1501740) is ready for action. I'll be using the lessons I learned with Gage to fine tune Fluid's advancement. And I finally gave Gage a back story, and though both characters are similar they have different pasts and personalities. Plus at the respective levels I believe Fluid will be more powerfull, after 5th level (r1/s4 for 2nd level spells) as he is going eldritch knight asap, and will be able to pick it up as his 8th level I belive. It just hurts multi classing a sorcerer, but with the crappy skills and low skill points it sucks not to multi class early. I think this build will bloom around 7th level or so, and after 9th level will be quite powerfull. I think rangers have some decent synergy with spell casters if all you need is 1 level. Great skills good hitpoints, and some usefull abilities plus it buys your passage to eldrtich knight. I just think the first few levels might be tough. -fd |
| MotherBast11-30-03, 07:25 PM | Ok MO, you knew this day would come. Brackin and Rito are both level 6.... check the roleplay thread. Also, fluid and Barrel, you both might wana check it as well, as there is a message from Candy to both Gage and Octavian. |
| Magagumo11-30-03, 07:35 PM | I return (finally) from a pleasant turkey day. I'm afraid my greatest error in my last posting was saying I had email access, this was a lie. I meant to say I had internet access, but actually wasnt tracking stuff on the boards either (Bad Maga!). I will get Noir's tactics out posthaste, as I realize I have been holding that up quite a bit. Glad to see things haven't collapsed too much, but tthere's always tomorrow, eh Moh? ^_~ Anyways, tactics will be sent a fights read, hope everyone had a nice weekend. Edit: Hey Cat, I see you have a desecrated Red Dragon skeleton, nice ^_~. However, my only concern is how exactly Harvester killed the dragon. Yes, this is a picky point, but I wondered about Bruno and Harvester's capabilities to collect these bodies. Basically, my concern is balance- In a normal game, a 7th level party doesn't have a chance in Hades of killing a Young Red Dragon, so the issue of acquiring its skeleton is not much of an issue. Now then, an advanced Young Adult Red Dragon (normally has 19 HD) is a CR 13, how would one man kill that? I have set my own rule of limiting the creature's CR to my own caster level (Hill Giant at 7th, Stone Giant at 8th, etc.) Now then, that beast is more powerful than any melee combatant at the arena, with a heck of a lot more HD. How exactly is it fair for Harvester to have freely acquired a beast so far ebyond his own fighting capabilities. Now, I know I might sound like I'm whining, but we have to keep in mind the role-playing aspects of body acquirement. Otherwise, I have a special plan for Bruno at 10th caster level (Titans, anyone? ;)), and wouldn't mind picking up a Fire Giant next level (or Stone Giant now), I just think we shouldn't abuse it. My advice is refund some of your cash for the opal, and pick up the Young Red Dragon (CR 7). Just a fair thought. Of course, we could always be allowed to fight our monsters beforehand, so we could see how high a beast we could pick up, aeh? (Gnomes have dodge bonus vs. Giants! Bestow Curse for -4 saves! Phantasmal Killer the Fire or Stone Giant!) Anyways, just something I think people should consider. Edited Edit: Tactics sent, barrel_master, thank you for your patience. |
| barrel_master11-30-03, 07:55 PM | ^ I've already started your fight... I'll accept the tactics but please send them faster next time... Unfortunately, because of scheduling concerns I won't be able to accept them after tommorow. |
| sshuit11-30-03, 08:58 PM | Good Fight Draloth. I agree with you that it isn't fun to have your cool ability (rage) negated by someone with a good counter (mount / speed) but everyone seems to negate the best part of being mounted (ride-by-attack, spirited charge) with pillar-dancing to avoid charges.... So yeah, its kinda cheap to run away in an arena, but strategically it makes good sense. I'd love to fight you again and let you rage but only if you let me charge you with my lance :D Originally posted by Draloth Thanks for running the fight Prexxx, I must say that I'm a little curious about whether or not a paladin could ride around in circles like that to avoid a "raging" opponant, especially since the paladin shouldn't know that he's raging per se. Oh well, don't know if that would have had any impact on the fight, but as my friend said: "if it's really an arena (gladiatorial combat type of stuff), you wouldn't run away." ~Dral's somewhat biased view :D |
| Caterane11-30-03, 09:00 PM | @Jindl: :eek: you are right. Shame on me. @Mag: Why should I think about such matters when I just lost against an ancient elf who would normally never enter an arena. And sloisel just posted an even older one with Strength 3 or something? How is one supposed to have a natural intelligence of 24??? Where do the wagonloads of platinum come from that are needed to ressurect dozens of fallen gladiators ...every week? Why do paladins kill for money? Even kill other paladins when set as opponoment? etc etc etc. This is the optimization board which means there is no moral issue when it`s within the rules. But I`m no one who bents these imaginations in an unnatural angle. The same moment I added the dragon I also wrote the story HOW I got him (though that was not at all necessary but some kind of bonus from my side). Read it, please. Bruno cannot aquire such an undead because he doesn`t have access to desecrate. And Titans can`t be made into skeletons (20 Hd cap). Edit: Titans have 20 Hd? Holy **** :eek: :uh-huh: :confused: :) :devil: :cloud9: Edit 2: Can one ride a Titan? |
| Magagumo11-30-03, 09:31 PM | Hmm, yea, yea, Cat, I know I'm being crazy ^_~. But honestly, our skeletons can be downright fierce. Therefore, if no one else decides to comment on this, I'll make a deal with you: You get the quadrepeds, I get the bipeds ;) i.e., I don't touch the dragons, and you leave my giants and titans alone ^_~. But seriously, Cat, we do have to take the idea of CR into considration here. I know Bruno and Harvester are very powerful, but it's honestly obscene for you to be grabbing that dragon, just like it would be obscene for me to have at 10th caster, a 20 HD skeleton with a strength of 43 and a Dex of 14.... the sketon could still throw javelins at flying opponents, and a 2d6+16 javelin will smash you right quick. I just think we need to be fair to the other cobatants, or our skeletons (and The Harvester's other nasty undead) are going to rule the arena. After all, that dragon is more dangerous than you are, honestly, or at least tied ;). Like I said, we have two options here: One, cap the monster's CR to our own level (which still gives you a lot of undead power, even a very young Red Dragon zombie (20 HD). After all, the zombie template was created to take advantage of the cleric's capacity to summon mega-undead, while ensuring that the CR wouldn't get out of hand.). Or Two, arrange a fight between us and the desired undead, which allows us to test our limits, without killing CR 13s and 21s through RPing. I know this hurts to self-nerf, Cat, but we do need to be fair here. Can I get some Elder Mods to comment, please? ;) |
| SnarkHunter11-30-03, 09:45 PM | Hmm...something to consider. For every other combatant with creatures, jindle, and moon-moon in particular since we tend to depend on our companions, our allies have as many or fewer HD then us. As far as guidelines go for what makes an acceptable ally that seems pretty consistent in the core rules. Leadership for instance, can never get you an ally with more levels then you no matter what your charisma might be. That said I will admit that a 7 or 6 hd skeleton is barely worth the computer screen its displayed on. If any one else is concerned about this why don't we put it to a vote, and in fact we could vote on allies of any sort. 9)Should gladiators have limits on what allies they are allowed in the arena? 9a) If yes should the limit be the CR of the character 9b) The HD/caster level of the character. 9c) HD/caster level x2 in case of undead? my 2c. |
| sshuit11-30-03, 09:55 PM | Quick question : If I have a MW Rapier, can I pay 1000gp to have it made into a +1 magic weapon? Or do I have to sell it for 1/2 value and then pay 1315? You know us Paladins... so damn tight with our coppers. edit : Thank you Snark. Also. I know I have a lot of "rookie" questions. This stuff really isn't covered that well in the build FAQ. Might we update it with some of these issues?.. Things like. How HP are calculated for characters / mounts / allies What can/can't be bought.. The stuff every n00b needs to know. sshuit |
| SnarkHunter11-30-03, 10:18 PM | You can pay to upgrade it. Although I must mention it costs 2000gp not 1000 ;). by similar means if you have a +1 rapier you can pay to upgrade it to a +2 rapier by paying 6,000gp (the difference in price). |
| cellardweller11-30-03, 10:34 PM | In the Johan vs Curunger fight, a celestial riding dog was identified via a spellcraft check. As far as I can see spellcraft would have identified that it was SMIII, but knowlege[the plains] should have been required to identify what it was. Just thought I'd point that out as I think that knowledge skills (my personal favorites in f2f gaming) are being forgotten in the arena. ps. Expect Paul vs Pyre in 12 hrs. |
| fluiddragon11-30-03, 11:24 PM | I think the limit of allies should be 1 level less than the player. You are supposed to be the opponent not the ally. -fd |
| stinkygoblin12-01-03, 12:55 AM | the Ydaf, Jagath Kihr fight is posted. I don't know haow to link to it if someone could tell me how, it would be much appreciated. |
| Alathar Vierce12-01-03, 03:28 AM | Alathar Vierce, I wish to keep out of play for this moment as he is busy in his homeland, but I would like to introduce someone new to compete. Carane D'viel (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1967060#post1967060) With the promise of a new campaign starting soon, I've been trying to test a rogue/caster variant. Picked sorceror over wizard mainly for spell diversity in the field, but will see how he does. :) |
| Caterane12-01-03, 04:52 AM | If only undead with less hd than my own are allowed I wouldn`t even bother to post them on the sheet. While a 6 Hd pegasus can fly, gets feats, and shared abilities a 6 Hd skeleton is absolute crap and in no way a comparison. IF we change the rules here I would suggest to make it 2xcaster level in case of undead. They are good combatants but not unbeatable and they don`t have much special abilities. Most of the gladiators fly up anyway. Undead are a basic part of the rules. In my campaign I play a necromancer who sometimes has 20 skeletons and zombies running behind him; or an advanced fire giant skeleton last time. There were no problems with that so far. Look the Ebelin vs Skymoon fight. Both of my foes have double my hp, better saves, fly around (and twice as fast as I do), I can`t even surprise them due to Mounted combat and it negates touch attacks, and so on and so on... but did anyone complain about that? Did anyone come up and said "Hey animal companions are tougher than the owner itself who can cast spells while the companion does the rest" ? On top of that we banned Leadership to prevent other characters to achieve similar power. Jindl and Skymoon lose against each other only; because this companion thing is unbalanced. Oh yeah, I have a hawk familiar. *claps hand on head* "Hey Ashteru, go and tear Monk-bane to shreds, yeah, and afterwards let me saddle up and fly me home." :nonono: Seriously, I would really like to see how they would fare without their companions. On top of that I have a problem with mounts. Last fight we saw my mount Knellstriker nearly die from one fireball and it even was protected with a resist fire. Any follow-up damage spell would`ve killed it. No chance thus - as I increase in level - I need better mounts (and I don`t speak about up-to-the-roof expansive Obsidian steeds who aren`t tougher than a horse). But to show my good will I`ll change my dragon to 2xHD. @Mag: Dragons, me. Giants, you. Deal. :D |
| Irlina12-01-03, 05:06 AM | Well, so the Skeleton issue comes up. I thought about a character based on this idea some time ago: A second level character can buy an animate dead scroll (depending on the vote even of higher level) and create undead with it. First possibility would be some very good undead, like 10HD-Djinni (which could fly with 60"feet, no wings, so it is not lost), this 6armed Demon (6! claw attacks with high Str), don't now the HD number right now. If you are really evil you can even buy a Half-Dragon-Titan (20 HD D12, Str about 50! , BAB +10). You can afford a scroll for 20 HD Skeletons for 3rd level with scroll vote (1250gp), or 2nd level when charisma and scroll vote are voted in favor. So I have a strong suggestion: ONLY ALLOW THE SKELETONS/ZOMBIES ALREADY PRINTED IN THE MM. ALLOWING FREE ACCESS TO SKELTONS IS NOT BALANCED!!! |
| Caterane12-01-03, 05:41 AM | A brilliant idea, Irlina. A megaraptor is as good as a dragon of course not as cool but my main problem is to find a tougher mount and that qualifies as such. Wyvern mount at 8th and up to the sky he goes. I think Bruno would be equally pleased with an Ettin instead of a Hillgiant, eh Mag? But you cannot cast a scroll before the fight begins if there`s a chance for failure (like animate dead at 3rd level) so this is only available to higher level characters. Same as with Use poison. |
| Moherajikuyx12-01-03, 06:23 AM | Originally posted by Jindl 1. Invis and mirror image don't stack. 2. Detect Magic doesn't do everything you think it does. In this case the two issues stacked. The H had detect magic on from 3 rounds, which lets him detect the auras' locations; so he detected the auras given by the images when blind (I can't find where it says that it doesn't work when blind, it's a cone shape emanation, not view range). It also lets him detect the other auras: he could have understood the real from the images recognizing the auras from other spells on the original had he enough points in spellcraft. He had not, so he had to roll both for the miss chance and for the aura. The horse never was at range of the flying sorc, who with good manouver could stay 5' over H (so 10' over the horse - out of reach); during the last two rounds O was invisible and the horse did ride by attacks, so it couldn't attack. |
| Moherajikuyx12-01-03, 07:19 AM | 1. skeletons The spell already sets the limit to 2xCL, and rolls are not allowed outside of the arena, so there's already a limit to the thing. The aspect of procuring the corpse though is not not be forgotten. Slaying a dragon is possible of course, but it uses resources. So I think we should set a cost, dependant maybe on the CR of the slayed thing, which is by rules the correct thing to calculate resources used (I know I know, but I don't want to hear comments about this, send them to Mr. wizards: what could we base on else?). Money spent at the local Corpse Gatherer GuildTM - of course the Arena Organization has his long arms in the business :) Any proposals? I think it should be a quadratic rule, cost=a*CR^2 + b*CR +c. Any proposals for a, b and c; if you don't think it shall cost, suggest 0. I'll open it on the votes thread after some proposals are issued. We've got to decide, so don't use (buy) skeletons this week! If you feel it's a thing your character depends on completely, freeze it for the week. Who already used corpses doesn't have to worry of course, but will have to pay for them in the future. 2. The thing that makes all tremble... Prepared spellcasters After weeks of thinking I came up with this. In a normal campaign, there are some issues that we have to consider about prepared spellcasters. 1. they partially know the risks they're going to front: they can guess the correct spells 2. they will usually guess some spells correctly but also have some bad surprises Also, 1. their "boss" enemies spy, scry, gather info, study their succecces and otherwise collect info on them 2. the enemies don't know all their memorized spells but know their habits so they will anticipate part of the spells 3. the enemies will likely have surprises too, probably a bit more than the spellcasters. These are the reasons that push me to set from this week the next stage of the prep spellcaster experimentation. Prepared spellcasters will write half of their used slots on the sheet at the moment of the character equipping. For example, a third level wizard will have to write 2/1/0 spells on the sheet (halved to the lower) if he has no int bonus, 2/1/1 if he's got a bonus spell each level. Domain spells bonus spells specialization spells all count: a 3rd lvl cleric with bonus and domain has to write 2/2/1 spells. He can chose which (it can be 2/1+d/1+d or 2/2/1+d etc). Remember the rule is not set in stone, if I see it's too though I'll change it. But I think it's good. I'll add it now to the rules and the default sheet. Advantages: - it's simple - it permits some degree of surprise to the opponents and some degree of error to the spellcaster, exactly like in the campaign - a lot of spells are already guessable: what cleric will not use SoF? Write those. - if needed we can make it a bit less harsh by setting it to a third - approx. by eccess - instead than a half, approx. by defect. - you'll always have a surprise with the highest lvl slot. - it adds to tactics and strategies in terms of bluffing ;) Cons: - I know, there are many spellcasters in the arena that will feel they got the shaft. Sorry. I'll be the first to experimentate it, with a cleric and a wizard. Complaining's open. Don't be chaotic. Don't let rage get you. Try to be objective. Remember that the arena has the meaning of doing character optimization with the dnd campaign on mind: all the rules I come up with have this point of view. Finally, I don't look for support and I know this rule is going to make me less loved. So I cry:weep: no wait, I mean, but I'm going to resist because I think it's correct. |
| Prexx12-01-03, 07:44 AM | Re: Animate dead. I agree with Irlina. Allowing fully customizable skeleton/zombies can easily get abusive. Allowing only what is printed in the MM seems like an acceptable check/balance to the spell. Re: Prepared Spellcasters. Originally posted by Moherajikuyx In a normal campaign, there are some issues that we have to consider about prepared spellcasters. 1. they partially know the risks they're going to front: they can guess the correct spells 2. they will usually guess some spells correctly but also have some bad surprises An adventuring party will also have certain tools available to them that we don't have here in the arena. Proper usage usage divination spells such as Divination, Commune and Scry can give you a VERY good picture of the battles you are about to face. With adequate preparation time, there would be very few surprises awaiting a party. They would know what the are up against, their odds of success, and the general tactics they would use to defeat their enemy. As far as having nasty surprises. I agree that the caster would not prepare a perfect selection of spells, but in the arena, you rarely prepare the perfect selection. Many times, your opponent does something completely unexpected, and many of your spells/tactics go right out the window. That is just the unexpected nature of combat. 1. their "boss" enemies spy, scry, gather info, study their succecces and otherwise collect info on them 2. the enemies don't know all their memorized spells but know their habits so they will anticipate part of the spells 3. the enemies will likely have surprises too, probably a bit more than the spellcasters. All of the methods you just mentioned are available to all of the gladiators in the arena. Anybody can go back and look at their opponent's past fights in order to get a good feel for the tactics they tend to employ, and what sort of battle they can expect. I think this very closely mirrors what a typical "boss" enemy would do prior to fighting a party of PCs. In summary, I feel that the arena, while certainly not a perfect simulation of an actual campaign, is a fairly reasonable replica. An intelligent adventuring party will have a good idea of what to expect from a "boss" and will prepare spells accordingly. Just like the "boss" will have a good idea of what to expect from the PCs, and will prepare his spells to best defeat them. The encounter will be a surprise for both sides because when they finally meet, they will have no idea what spells the other has memorized. This is very closely mirrored in the arena because both combatants know the capabilities of their opponent, but do not know the tactics or spells that their opponent will utilize. Anyways, those are my opinions on the matter. I realize that I will probably not infulence your decision one way or the other, but I just thought it would be good to show you where I'm coming from. |
| fluiddragon12-01-03, 08:53 AM | Originally posted by Alathar Vierce Alathar Vierce, I wish to keep out of play for this moment as he is busy in his homeland, but I would like to introduce someone new to compete. Carane D'viel (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1967060#post1967060) With the promise of a new campaign starting soon, I've been trying to test a rogue/caster variant. Picked sorceror over wizard mainly for spell diversity in the field, but will see how he does. :) I think you have used 38 points in the abilities (I've been playing around with wild elf sorcerers a lot lately) So you have 2 points too many with a 36 point by. Below is what it should look like. STR 10 [2 points] 10 DEX 16 [10 points]+4 racial 20 CON 16 [10 points] -2 racial 14 INT 10 [2 points]-2 racial 8 WIS 10 [2 points] 10 CHA 16 [10 points] 16 On Fluiddragon (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1501740#post1501740) I was trying to find an optimized mix of ability scores, better than what I used with Gage who is my test bed. I decided to go with str 10, dex 18, con 14, int 12, wis 10, cha 16 (after mods). Gage only has a 10 int and with the sucky skills and points sorc. get I wanted a few more. The penalty to con really hurts and you don't want a will penalty. That array I found to be my optimal. I thought about puting an 8 in str and 12 in wis for a bonus, but I plan to use my bow more and didn't want the str penalty, and you can't even use a composite bow if you have a str penalty. Also sorcerers get +2 will saves and on your sheet you have +0 it should be +2. You have to have read magic to read scrolls if you are a sorcerer as the dc to decipher them is high enough where you can't automatically do it with taking 10 on the skill (You won't miss the extra cantrip though, the only one I have used so far is resistance in 4 fights with Gage, who is similar but will probably go straigh sorc.) All in all though I must say that great minds must think alike because your new character is very similar to mine, and more optimised but also very similar to Gage. Cool character. Just need to fix thoose errors. I'm going eldrtich knight with fluid, I'd like to see how yours would go with arcane trickster. @ Mo I fixed fluids class level it was a cut n paste error. its now what it should be ranger1/sorc 1. edit @ Mo, about the prepared casters I have been a staunch opponent to changes in the prepared casters, but this change doesn't seem too bad, its not as bad as I feared. :D. It will make things easier for my sorcerers. I willing to see how it pans out. Your reasoning seems sound, and it does leave some surprises. |
| Alathar Vierce12-01-03, 09:52 AM | Thanks for the comment FD, and I apologize for the similarity in builds at this point but its rather hard to be 100% original starting off. The point buy error is true and glad you pointed it out, was up to late and well stupid errors occur that way :) Went through character again and I managed to add up my HP wrong as well, omg lol Will get things sorted out as I rough out a draft for his background, but should be interesting how this all turns out :) Just need to write up a character when I'm fully awake :drool: |
| fluiddragon12-01-03, 10:25 AM | Originally posted by Alathar Vierce Thanks for the comment FD, and I apologize for the similarity in builds at this point but its rather hard to be 100% original starting off. The point buy error is true and glad you pointed it out, was up to late and well stupid errors occur that way :) Went through character again and I managed to add up my HP wrong as well, omg lol Will get things sorted out as I rough out a draft for his background, but should be interesting how this all turns out :) Just need to write up a character when I'm fully awake :drool: Its no prob, I almost made a rogue/sorc but decided to shoot for Eldritch Knight instead of arcane trickster. I figure they will go in different directions as they evolve. You know you have something good when you see other people come up with a similar build. Are you going AT with this build? The payoff seems a few levels off but once you get the 2nd AT level the build blooms. A 5d6 shocking grasp with 3d6 sneak attack is a real nasty attack! Good choice on spells! ;) -fd |
| Caterane12-01-03, 10:26 AM | Undead:Hey Mo, come on. I wasn`t allowed to use the skeleton last fight, now again this week. It`s in the rules, I have paid the money and it`s balanced if we take the examples from the MM. Knellstriker will not survive another fight and freezing is no alternative but a punishment. An offer: The Harvester pays the amount of money needed if the votes go the worsest way for me thus I pay maximum money and refund it if we decide to stay with the rules. But don`t let my skeleton sit out again. But overall I strongly recommend to leave the complete roleplaying part out of this. Why have I to pay for my virtual fight against a dragon? Shouldn`t Jindl pay for his journey to the forest where he aquired his bat? Pegasi occasionally pass by the city gates too, I suppose. If someone builds an expensive item that lasts more than a week, is he to sit out? No of course not. Where are the mages and clerics who produce scrolls, potions and expensive magic items every week in abundance? How many are there actually? Where do they get their XPs from? Where`s the level loss from death? There are plenty of other examples I could mention but know this: The arena is no campaign but a threat on the optimization board. Virtually it is a gladiator dome in the middle of nowhere. There is no city, there is no forest, there is nothing around exept the arena itself; the arena ...and the rules as they are written. Prepared casters: My opinion is that this is unfair. First of all this is no campaign but an arena tournament. Even if we want to simulate a campaign how does it work in a real game? Example from my yesteradys session: we had to enter an ancient tomb no one opened in a thousand years, surprise surprise, lots of undead and I memorized every spell correctly. In most of the cases it goes that way because we check beforehand. Someone pointed it out already: If you want to prepare against a caster then read the previous fights. This is work but that pays off. If someone doesn`t do this, his fault. And on top of that we should keep the rules as few as possible but if you want a decision: Why don`t we just vote on this one, too? I - IMHO - think this is for all to decide. Edit: Oh and Octavian would had a much much tougher fight if he hadn`t the many spells a sorcerer may cast. How much MM could he have gotten off on the Harvester? Two? Three? But not 10. Sorcerers are in no way underpowered so I don`t understand this whole issue in the first place. |
| Alathar Vierce12-01-03, 10:46 AM | Yeah I was planning on a late blossom into Arcane Trickster, its not really optimized as the wizard would get there quite a bit sooner. However I never really got used to a wizard memming certain spells at the start of a day, its to restricting and if you make a bad choice your stuck with that spell, used or not. True a smaller list to cast from, but with scrolls to cast the once a fight buffs...I can save rest for whats needed to win :smirk: |
| MotherBast12-01-03, 10:57 AM | Ok, Lora vs. Faldion fight finished. 16 rounds of action, not bad. Will take me a while to get it all posted. Im not gona spoil the ending here either. One note though, looking back over the fight, I tried to be consistant and always list Faldion's position using the Top Left corner of his mount, but I think in 16 rounds, I might have listed the position wrong once or twice. In all cases where Faldion attacked, he is 10' from Lora, and he is never adjacent to Lora at any point in the fight, as he instructed in his tactics to remain 10 to 15' from her. Even if the numbers are wrong once or twice, it was correct on my little map here. |
| Alathar Vierce12-01-03, 11:04 AM | Ok after near 1000+ edits I finally got the sheet looking right for me, let me know if any small errors, I've went through a couple times already and corrected as I went (since haven't fought yet, re-arranged a few stat points due to some errors). Besides that comments are welcome ;) |
| Jindl12-01-03, 11:12 AM | I'm currently working on the Ebelin vs Skymoon fight, and there is something important about mounted combat that I want to point out. I have seen a number of mod's handling this incorrectly, and though Tellish pointed this out earlier, the mistakes continue... When mounted, the rider shares the same space as the mount. He is not above, beside, in a certain corner, etc. He is in all the same squares as the mount, and is not in any other squares. His position on the map is the same as the mount's. That means that he does not have 5 feet of altitude, he is considered to be on the ground. Also, this means that if the rider and mount both have a 5 foot reach, and are being attacked by a creature with a 5 foot reach, then both the rider and mount can counterattack that creature. It doesn't matter if the opponent comes from beside, below, or is a flying sorceror hovering above ... in game terms the mount and rider share the space and both can counterattack. I know this is a slight suspension of logic, but it is correct game mechanically, and that is very important. On another topic: Wild Elf ability score adjustments. Please read the excerpt below from the SRD. from the SRD, under Elf Wild Elf Traits (Ex): These traits are in addition to the high elf traits, except where noted. — +2 Dexterity, –2 Intelligence. These adjustments replace the high elf ’s ability score adjustments. Wild elves have a +2 dex, -2 int and thats all. Its not +4 dex, -2 con, -2 int. These adjustments replace the high elf's ... -Jindl |
| Alathar Vierce12-01-03, 11:23 AM | Ahh knew there was another error, will have to edit again, peh! Rest of the elf subraces have additions, so one would accidently assume and read over that bit =/ |
| fluiddragon12-01-03, 11:24 AM | re: Wild elves, good call Jindl, The other sub races have additions and the wild elf replaces. I'll fix my characters thanks for pointing this out. Makes the wild elf and even better sorcerer! -fd |
| Alathar Vierce12-01-03, 11:27 AM | Actually glad to have a couple more hitpoints, lol :) |
| LLMadCow12-01-03, 11:32 AM | Okay, here is my proposal - for those non-spontaneous spell casters, why not allow scrying using the same Auto 10 rule we have been using for the crafters of weapons and such? So, if you can succeed on your scry roll by taking 10, then it works and you can prepare all of your spells after opponents have been posted? |
| MotherBast12-01-03, 01:02 PM | Ok, Lora vs. Faldion fight posted. Lora vs. another pally. Boy, she hates those guys. |
| fluiddragon12-01-03, 01:05 PM | Octavian has been challanged (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1759536#post1759536), and the prize is no less than the beautifull Candessa, herself.... |
| SnarkHunter12-01-03, 01:10 PM | @Mo: Well you rogue, then its come to this? I'll play along for now, but ypou test my patience. Elder: One note about mounts. Your right on everything about sharing spaces, but the rider still enjoys a +1 bonus on Melee attacks so long as his opponent is smaller then his mount. As for suspending logic, I kind of like the image of a mounted rider wheeling back on forth on her steed, twisting and thrusting to take advantage of every opening around her. Good stuff. Gah! Want fight to be done....so anxious... :twitch: :twitch: :twitch: :twitch: :twitch: :twitch: :twitch: :twitch: :twitch: :twitch: :twitch: ;) Edit: I for one have no problem with Harvester using the very young red dragon... still powerful and dangerous but not upsettingly so. Though this does mean I'll likely be challenging Bruno in a bit. Mmmm... |
| Moherajikuyx12-01-03, 01:40 PM | Surprised of not seeing lynching ready people around, the stranger drops the mask revealing to be old Moh! :D Prexx - Originally posted by Prexx I realize that I will probably not infulence your decision one way or the other, but I just thought it would be good to show you where I'm coming from. Wait, there's no opinion that will not influence me, especially if explicited so kindly and exhaustively. Though, I feel that this dreaded change, will do little difference, but at the lowest levels. So let's do this little experiment. I've gone back on decisions of mine in the past in case of need. fluid - Thanks I need some support I'm not a lone wolf as Iron :) Cat - don't tell me, Iron's against two mounted guys of the worst, Jindl and Moonmoon... I was meditating about freezing him too, so I left out any possibility of using the skeleton before the decision, to prevent me from falling into tentation. I would use it for sure. The examples you gave are about class features, that are more easily conceded (usually, given for free) than spells. Also, companions are not to be slain before having them ;) So, up to your conscience. If you feel it's correct, use it. But note that there's people already complaining about the skeletons. Originally posted by Caterane The arena is no campaign but a threat on the optimization board. Virtually it is a gladiator dome in the middle of nowhere. :( There is one thing, though: the will of the creator of the arena... Who would like to see some of the results applied to his campaigns. I feel to not be the only one around. The arena'scope is to have a lot of fun, but it also has to be borne out by the campaigns. Jindl - darn! That's one big sospension of logic... Happily it didn't change the result of the fight woohoo. One question though, does this permit the riders to threaten near and far with reach weapons? Are you sure? Any quotings? Originally posted by Alathar Vierce [B][...]However I never really got used to a wizard memming certain spells at the start of a day, its to restricting and if you make a bad choice your stuck with that spell, used or not. And now, the arena features this too! :angel: Now updating the roster. |
| Magagumo12-01-03, 01:52 PM | Scry is no longer a skill though, but a Will save, and that gets messy as to what of theirs you own ;) I think customized skeletons are bad, but using any monster out of the MM is alright (if I want a Blue dragon skeleton, I should get one, but templates are always a big no-no in my book, at least when we are ignoring CRs) I think Moh's idea of compensating for the CR is not a bad one, somewhat on the same level as purchasing a trained hydra (Suggested under Arms & Equipment Guide- Not for Arena use ;)) with your saved up cash. Now here's my big idea: We do a comparison of the player's level and the monster's CR, and turn the difference into a cost. Thusly, while it would not be a big deal for Bruno (7th level) to snag a Hill Giant skeleton (CR 7), and The Harvester (7th level) to snag a very young red dragon zombie (CR 5 for 20 HD) or a young red dragon skeleton (13 HD for CR 7), it would be a challenge for The Harvester to snag a Young Adult Red Dragon (CR 13) or Bruno to snag a titan (CR 21!). In essence, the money paid would replicate the payment you made to mercenaries and hirelings to help you slay the beastie. If you could do it yourself, you only need pay for the animation cost. If you have the cash, go bigger, but be prepared to pay for it. Now, my thought as to cost could work like this- (Monster CR-Player level)^2 * 100= extra cost paid. Now for examples: Stone Giant vs. Bruno- (8 (CR) - 7 (level))= 1*1*100=100 extra gold as well as the cost for raising the 14 HD skeleton. Harvester vs. Young Red dragon- (7-7)= 0*0*100= no extra cost Young Adult R.D. vs. Harvester- (13-7)= 6*6*100=3600 extra gold, not a bad price for something with 5 attacks at a +18 or so. Titan vs. Bruno at 10th level- (21-10)= 11*11*100=12,100 extra gold, making it a pricey ally, but quite possibly worth the cost. Of course, the 100 gp modifier could be adjusted, but I'm just throwing an idea out here. I demand we resolve this by Wednesday, so Cat and I have a fair chance to alter our characters for the week. For now, I will keep George, and I recommend you buy up that young skeleton or very young zombie dragon, Cat, as that way we will be prepared for combat on Wed if we are not allowed to purchase better corpses. As for Moh's idea, I do not believe it is a terrible one, but I think it is entirely unnecessary. At this point, you are locking up the player's choices (we might want to go a compltely different route if, say, we knew that fear would not work on our opponents ;)), and I believe peoples' comments on checking a person's past fights have been well-made (Come on now, we all know Bruno likes to exhaust people and has been a fan of Ghoul Touch ;)) . Why complicate things, Moh, when it's been running so smoothly. Also, I think I need to say this, you do not own this board, my friend, and you cannot spontaneously change the rules because you wish to playtest out some of your personal qualms. We have 15+ people who are regular attendees to this thread, and this arena is as much theirs, as yours now. I respect you as a fellow gladiator/Mod and as the person who runs the roster, but I have to put my foot down when you make yourself the ultimate authority on arena rules. Run it through a vote for next week, but do not declare it in effect for this week without allowing the majority to make the decision. |
| fluiddragon12-01-03, 01:53 PM | Ydaf has also been challanged. -fd |
| Jindl12-01-03, 02:03 PM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Jindl - darn! That's one big sospension of logic... Happily it didn't change the result of the fight woohoo. One question though, does this permit the riders to threaten near and far with reach weapons? Are you sure? Any quotings? No. Each creature still threatens according to its normal reach/weapon's reach. For example, in the campaign I play in, I have a 2nd lvl paladin. In a recent encounter, I was on foot, facing a mounted orc barabarian 1st lvl (my party was handling other barbarians and providing some ranged support.) The orc charged me with his lance and (luckily) missed thanks to my heavy armor+shield+total defense. He stopped 10 foot away (because of the reach on the lance) and so his horse did not make an attack. Immediately, I took a 5 foot step towards the orc (inside the reach of his lance) and then attempted to trip him. Normally, this draws an AoO from the orc, but since I am inside the reach of his lance, he couldn't take it. Since I was not attempting to trip the horse, it got no AoO. Luckily, I successfully tripped to orc off the horse, and the falling damage (plus some damage from my companions arrows) killed the barb. With a successful handle animal and ride checks, I mounted the orc's light warhorse, readied my lance, and charged to my companion's aid. It was pretty cool. The point of my example is that although the orc and horse shared the same 10x10 space, the orc used a 10' reach weapon and was subject to all the benefits and hindrances of it, while the horse just had it's normal 5' reach. In the fight between Harvester and Octavian, the horse could have attacked the flying sorc, but you're right, it wouldn't have changed the outcome, but it may have changed the number of rounds the fight took. Cat's mistake in Iron vs Mara could have changed the outcome... I think Iron may have gotten lucky this time. RE: Skeletons - I see no problems with the hit die cap imposed by the spell. Nor do I think it is necessary to limit it to those examples in the MM. But, I do not think skeletons made from "advanced" monsters should be allowed. In other words, no large sized skeletal "advanced" wolves... only the normal medium sized skeletal wolves. Got it? The reason I vote to allow skeletal remains beyond the examples is ... Gate, Shapechange, Polymorph, etc., will all be able to pick and choose from most/all listed creatures in the MM. If they can do so, then so can animate dead. Besides, a powerful skeleton does not assure victory (just look at Bruno vs Skymoon.) Skeleton's have pathetically low will and fort saves, btw. So arrows of slaying work wonders, as do spells like undeath to death, cure critical wounds, and sunray! -Jindl |
| Magagumo12-01-03, 02:23 PM | hehe, George is hardly a powerful skeleton, Jindl ;) I have him running along my CR, but imagine if I had a Titan (possible with the right application of desecrate), that +20 to his strength might have caused more pain for Moon-Moon :-P But anyways, I still think the price idea is worth investigating, as it makes it all so much more... legit is I suppose the word I'm looking for. I'm thinking that if people don't have a huge problem with the concept, I will try and fetch a fire giant for a little extra money when I hit 8th level. As for advanced skeletons, I'd say only dragon's are really viable for that, I think Cat's use of a 12HD dragon was an excellent plan, as it is still below any CR cap, and ensures true power-gaming :-D But yea, advanced animal skels and such are kinda frightening, that's why i just keep climbing the giant tree :) Viva mordent! |
| MotherBast12-01-03, 02:37 PM | Hey MO, Brackin and Candessa are now in line with the standard sheet, except I don't use that font, as I don't like it. Can you remove the sheet tag from them now please? |
| LLMadCow12-01-03, 02:58 PM | Quote by Magagumo Also, I think I need to say this, you do not own this board, my friend, and you cannot spontaneously change the rules because you wish to playtest out some of your personal qualms. We have 15+ people who are regular attendees to this thread, and this arena is as much theirs, as yours now. I respect you as a fellow gladiator/Mod and as the person who runs the roster, but I have to put my foot down when you make yourself the ultimate authority on arena rules. Run it through a vote for next week, but do not declare it in effect for this week without allowing the majority to make the decision. Um... I think Mo has been challenged. :) Seriously, this is Mo's baby, but everything has turned into a sort of democratic process of voting and contributing and what not. I do feel that most changes should go before a vote. otherwise we could end up with yet a third arena where everything is guarnteed to be voted on. I say that the new rule should be given a weks stay for voting. I have put my two cents in, and I can say that if this had been going on from the start of Cliodhna, I would have dropped Craft: Bow, almost uselss for her, and taken Scry. I think being able to scry makes a world of difference and makes it mroe realistic for an actual game... |
| Caterane12-01-03, 03:38 PM | It seems that we`ve all agreed that undead are ok. I changed my dragon to 12Hd, so it`s not overpowered (one attack with +11, the others +6; that`s easy to evade). I don`t want a half-dragon half-troll ex-lycanthrope advanced fiendish skeleton titan. I just want to have a mount that doesn`t get killed by the first two attack ...and perhaps is also able to fly. George didn`t help Bruno to win but it made the fight at least equal. What can the small lonely Bruno do against the combined might of powerful Skymoon and Monk-bane??? So undead companions actually balance things. And because it is a spell on my list it could be considered some kind of class ability. I`m still against extra payment for animated skeletons/zombies but something I am ABSOLUTELY AGAINST is waiting another week to use my dragon. There is no reason to do this. IF we absolutely have to vote on this :rolleyes: then we keep it as it is written in the rules UNTIL we decide to handle it otherwise, not vice-versa. |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-01-03, 04:26 PM | Howdy i'm back. It was a very profitable and fun weekend of LG in Ontario's mega-city of Toronto. However, i return only to find the same-old moderators not taking time to read tactics as usual. ....from Hurtz vs Brackin Brackin attempts to damage Hurtz [Flurry, 1st attack is a stunner] 8+8=16 14+11=25 dmg 5+4 =9 Hurtz save vs stun 2+7=9 vs DC 15 stunned and automatically succeeds in the opposed grapple check as Hurtz cannot act. dmg 4+4=8 Dude, stunned doesn't make you helpless. I can still defend myself. ....from Hurtz's tactics If neither are enlarged, Flurry. use Attack Your Opponent and make the first one on each round a stunner. I'm just wondering what part of this is hard to understand? ...from Hurtz Tactics What to do if i see/hear him in charge range during my buffing steps proceed immediately to the ready-action. THEN under ready-action Draw potion of invis, and ready action. Here's the ready condition... If i hear/see him move into attack me (that includes charging) quaff potion first, then 5' in the adjacent square. This will automatically fail his charge. If he was invisible he'll now be visible as he strikes the square where i once was. Is this complicated? I don't think so. ...moderators' comments moderators note. In Hurtz tactics your ready action would not have worked. He would have been in charge range no matter what you did. I followed your original tactics even though I was tempted to pull and use a potion of invisibility. I figured you wanted the bonuses from herosim if grappled. Thinking for my character? That was mistake number one. When i spell out clear tactics i expect them to be followed. This would make me the first attacker against a very weakened AC'd opponent with all the advantage in the world. Just a note, though i know Brackin doesn't have +6 Bab, grapples are affected by bab progression. Just in case. With Heroism i'd be at +9 to hit?!?! Does it not dawn on the moderator that players who write tactics for their characters actually know what they might be doing? Why would i waste that advantage in a grapple? I have focus:Unarmed, and Spec:Unarmed. WHY IN GODS NAME WOULD I MAKE OPPOSED GRAPPLES TO DMG MY OPPONENT? You failed to apply even the first part of my tactic properly, let alone any part really. Well, when i accepted the challenge, i asked that you not run it Fluid. I guess MO didn't read that part or felt you could do a good enough job. You've failed to follow my tactics on a number of occassions and that's why i asked that you not run it. When MB e-mailed me, i told him he was gonna win because you were the moderator. I'm sorry if you're insulted by this, but i've just seen WAY too many errors in tactical applications from you when you run Hurtz and you always THINK for me and ignore my tactics when my tactics are obviously superior. Each time you TOUGHT for me i lost, because they were simply weaker choices than what i would have made. But then again it's hard to win any fight where my opponents constantly roll far better than me. Almost makes me look useless. Hence the reason why i always use an online roller. NO variances and NO disputes. G'ah, oh well, congrats on the snickers win Brackin. You had a gaurdian angel looking over you no doubt. Tellish |
| Magagumo12-01-03, 04:32 PM | By the way, I might have not been clear before: I say let's try this beastly tactic out, Moh, but I won't like it :-P The comment was simply my worry that things were being cahneged by a single person, but I like the idea of try it and then vote one week later. In this case, I will be picking up that FG next time I level, w/o extra cost, and eventually that Titan, just make sure I get my refund if all things go crazy :-P @ Cat: But what if I want a Half-Dragon Giant? ;) Sounds like a great plan, I'll let you know if I start desiring a quadreped, but I think our characters present perfect Yin-Yang functionality here... you'll see what I mean about the bipeds soon enough :-D |
| SnarkHunter12-01-03, 04:33 PM | Mo: i agree w/ harvester + Mag, I think its fine to have skeltons this week. In other news, a surprising challenge at level 7!Look here for details! (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1759419#post1759419) |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-01-03, 04:36 PM | Originally posted by Caterane I`m still against extra payment for animated skeletons/zombies but something I am ABSOLUTELY AGAINST is waiting another week to use my dragon. There is no reason to do this. IF we absolutely have to vote on this :rolleyes: then we keep it as it is written in the rules UNTIL we decide to handle it otherwise, not vice-versa. I don't see why a player should be penalized for doing something well balanced and within the rules of character development that comes with advanced levels. If ppl find it overpowering, then they should think outside the box and try to counter it instead of just saying it's too powerfull and annulling it with a house rule. I believe they've already found an acceptable compromise by limiting their choices to MM skele's. That should be good enough in my view. Tellish |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-01-03, 05:14 PM | @MO: Nevrlokagyft, Hurtz, Kelek are all ready for next week. @Cat: Very awesome fight description. Too bad Mara never got those saves. But otherwise, very well done. Tellish |
| fluiddragon12-01-03, 05:39 PM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket Dude, stunned doesn't make you helpless. I can still defend myself. [quote] From the SRD: Stunned: A stunned creature drops everything held, can’t take actions, takes a –2 penalty to AC, and loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). If he is making a grapple check on against you and you are stunned you can't take any actions thus you can't oppose an action, and his grapple check to damage you automatically succeds. This lasts untill the same initiative count on the next round just before he can act and you can't take any actions. Thus you cannot make opposed grapple rolls. From your tactics: [quote] Drink Potion of Heroism, Move 30' straight back to (0,26) taking the -5's. Note Heroism gives me +2 skill checks. Making my H/Ms at +7/+6, likewise it affects ALL my skills Spot/Listen are now +12/+12. He can't be in charge range yet if he's rushing, so i'll proceed with next buff step. You assumed he couldn't reach you when he could. He has a move of 40 with a run of 160. Unless you made a double move to cover there was no way you could avoid the charge. The choices were to use your ready action. or use your default starting action. I thought it would do you better to drink the potion for the bonuses to grapple as this was excactly what was happening. Had he had only a 30 move your tactics would have worked. They broke down here. At the end of the 1st round you were 75' away, within charging distance. If I used your ready action you would not have had any buffs and would have been grappling a monk who specializes in grappling and is much better at it than you. In your tactics you wanted to buff because you knew this was a tough fight. What I would have done was use the invisibility potion first, then he has NO WAY of seeing you and you can buff to your hearts content. You miss calculated the distance he could move. You had the same problem with Kelek and a barbarian. Kelek out ran him till his exp retreats ran out then the barbarian caught you. There were 2 ways you had available to beat his charge in round 2. 1) go invisible, 2) double move to cover. If I did any of these it would have been a much greater deviation from the tactics. He won initiative and ran towards you. Thinking for my character? That was mistake number one. When i spell out clear tactics i expect them to be followed. Then take into account the speed at which they can move. This would make me the first attacker against a very weakened AC'd opponent with all the advantage in the world. [quote] You would have been without any buffs, and you can't use expertise and defensive fighting untill you attack so your touch ac was well within what he could hit. You had 1 round. [quote] The Ready Action At this point in time, if i'm still buffing he obviously didn't rush me and he's buffing himself. Draw potion of invis, and ready action. Here's the ready condition... If i hear/see him move into attack me (that includes charging) quaff potion first, then 5' in the adjacent square. This will automatically fail his charge. Here is another error. You had your hands full #1. #2. Retrieving a stored item is a move equivenent action that provokes and AoO. Ready action is a Standard action. Thats your actions for this round plus you would have had to drop an item to do this. Then comes round 2. He charges you quaff (Standard action that provokes a AoO) He gets his AoO + his charge attack, you can't move your 5' step. Ready action allows a Standard action only you can't drink a potion and take a 5' step with a standard action. You should have use the invisibility first. With Heroism i'd be at +9 to hit?!?! Does it not dawn on the moderator that players who write tactics for their characters actually know what they might be doing? Why would i waste that advantage in a grapple? I have focus:Unarmed, and Spec:Unarmed. WHY IN GODS NAME WOULD I MAKE OPPOSED GRAPPLES TO DMG MY OPPONENT? You stated in your tactics to flurry and use the 1st attack I quote: Did he win init and RAN to be beside me? ...if yes he's now AC 14, my To Hit with Unarmed is 7+2hero-2flurry. Flurry with the first attempt being the Stunner DC 16(not sure if heroism gives this a +2. I'll let you decide). If he's stunned on the first shot then his AC is only 12 for the next shot. Dmg is 1d6+4 You would NOT have been at +9 to hit it would have been +7/+7. You also could not have readied an action after drinking the potion of heroism because quaffing a potion is a standard action and so is readying an action. You are trying to do too much in a round. You failed to apply even the first part of my tactic properly, let alone any part really.[/b] You failed to take into account his speed and you were trying to do more in 1 round than is possible. Most of us have been allowing potions and scrolls to be drawn with a move as a free action. Hurts and Kelek have both benifited from this in the past in fight I have run. I am aware now this is not the case and am not going to allow any player this freebie action any more. [quote]Well, when i accepted the challenge, i asked that you not run it Fluid. I guess MO didn't read that part or felt you could do a good enough job. You've failed to follow my tactics on a number of occassions and that's why i asked that you not run it. When MB e-mailed me, i told him he was gonna win because you were the moderator. I'm sorry if you're insulted by this, but i've just seen WAY too many errors in tactical applications from you when you run Hurtz and you always THINK for me and ignore my tactics when my tactics are obviously superior. Each time you TOUGHT for me i lost, because they were simply weaker choices than what i would have made. Like ALL of us I am learning more every fight I run. I have made mistakes in your favor and mistakes against you. In fact I have a private message in a fight I made some mistakes in that helped you win a fight against Cur. Mo was upset but you thought I did fine. In all the fights I have run for your characters the only feedback I have from you is positive. I have certainly made mistakes in the past and will in the future. Look at Mara's last fight! That was riddled with mistakes and that could have changed the out come. Yet there was no mudd slinging. SOme of my mistakes have won you fights, and you didn't complain then. But then again it's hard to win any fight where my opponents constantly roll far better than me. Almost makes me look useless. Hence the reason why i always use an online roller. NO variances and NO disputes. I don't use an online roller because my time is constrained, and it takes quite a bit longer to do. Plus I usually work off my lap top with the SRD away form my internet conenction. You certainly didn't complain about the number of high rolls Hurtz had in his fight against the paladin. You won that fight by sheer luck. Just like Dragonrain won his last fight by sheer luck. G'ah, oh well, congrats on the snickers win Brackin. You had a gaurdian angel looking over you no doubt. Now you have insulted me directly twice and all but accused me for cheating. If you have a problem you should have emailed me or PM'ed me like an adult not a spoiled kid. Fact is Hurtz's build is a late blooming build. You are going for an ultra high AC super defesnsive character. Have you considered that maybe your build is not that good? Or not that good yet? You are making Hurtz what I can an inert object. Nobody can hit him and he can't hit anybody. He was using sub par feats for the 1st 4 levels of his career. Feats that won't come into play for quite awhile. Everybody you fought had builds that were imediately powerfull. He only has a 14 Str, as a melee character. Mistake number 1. Every fight I ran you wanted 2 points in expertise, nullifying your hit chances, and you were doing 1d6+2 damage with the scimitar. You did't hit well and most of your opponents AC was over 20 or close to it. And when you DID hit you would do paltry damage. I've played a bunch of monks in the last few years and the way the game is written if you want a front line fighter type monk you NEED a high strength. I am a Ba Qua practitioner and study some other internal martial arts and I am dissapointed that the game mechanics favor strength so much in combat especially for th monk. But the fact is if you want a powerfull MELEE style monk your STR should be as high as possible. The game mechanics demand it. Brackin is a front line melee monk, and is better optimised for 1 on 1 combat. You build might fair better against spell casters. If you want to know the truth I think Hurtz is a much cooler character and I was very happy to see him reach his first monk level. I think the build blooms late. I wanted him to win the fight, but I let the dice roll as they will. If I was dishonest and cheated then you would have won. Now if you are thinking about the story I wrote Dragonrain hates humans, so HE wanted Brackin to win. To close I think tearing me down in a public forum is childish, and uncalled for. We all make mistakes, and we are all learning from them. I'm man enough to say when I'm wrong. But in this case your tactics were wrong and your build is unsuited towards front line characters like Brackin. You want to point out mistakes then be nice about it. I'm insulted and I think you owe me an appology. -fd edit: by the way the one mistake I DID make was not giving Brackin a critical on his first attack. So my only error was in your favor. edit2: Also if I used attack your opponent you would have had another -4 to hit. You do normal unarmed damage modifiers for the opposed roll. If you Attacked your opponent you would have been attacking at +3 to hit (taking into account your weapon focus). I used an opposed grapple and you were at +6 with that. |
| Moherajikuyx12-01-03, 05:50 PM | Challenged? Oh! Mag, I feel the responsibility of applying organizational rules. I think this one is an organizational rule. There's a difference with the balancing rules, that are voted upon. You may say that I have the control on the whole media... But they say it's democratic here around :rolleyes: Seriously, it's just to keep things going. In this case, it's because of the number of prepared spellcasters in the arena: a poll would have been useless. I wouldn't if I didn't have a good reason. I'm opening the poll for the skeletons. The proposals here issued make a lot of sense. I've got a question. How does one decide when a mount is ill-suited for combat (-5 ride)? Is it when it's not exactly one size cathegory larger than the pc? |
| Moherajikuyx12-01-03, 06:00 PM | Sooner or later all of us have a bad reaction, I did with Jindl but it passed, tellish & fluid will pass too :angel: Why don't you challenge? Keep this in character! |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-01-03, 06:19 PM | Originally posted by fluiddragon If I used your ready action you would not have had any buffs and would have been grappling a monk who specializes in grappling and is much better at it than you. In your tactics you wanted to buff because you knew this was a tough fight. My objective was to hit as much before getting in a grapple and possibly avoiding it with a successful stun. Originally posted by fluiddragon Here is another error. You had your hands full #1. #2. Retrieving a stored item is a move equivenent action that provokes and AoO. Ready action is a Standard action. Thats your actions for this round plus you would have had to drop an item to do this. So? Then drop one. That's what my tactics say, then do it. I did take that into account just to let you know? They guy is 75' away? How in the heck am i gonna provoke? Originally posted by fluiddragon Then comes round 2. He charges you quaff (Standard action that provokes a AoO) He gets his AoO + his charge attack, you can't move your 5' step. Ready action allows a Standard action only you can't drink a potion and take a 5' step with a standard action. You should have use the invisibility first. I CAN drink a potion as part of a readied action AND take a 5' step. The action happens BEFORE his attack AS he is charging. Originally posted by fluiddragon You would [b]NOT have been at +9 to hit it would have been +7/+7. You also could not have readied an action after drinking the potion of heroism because quaffing a potion is a standard action and so is readying an action. You are trying to do too much in a round. If i see him (as my tactics state) i go with the readied action of invisibility, and forget about the Heroism. +9? yeah, what's wrong with that? I didn't say +9/+9 did i? So flurry would obviously be +7/+7. *edit this isn't sarcasm, or an attack, it's just a reference Orignally posted by fluiddragon I have certainly made mistakes in the past and will in the future. Look at Mara's last fight! That was riddled with mistakes and that could have changed the out come. Yet there was no mudd slinging. SOme of my mistakes have won you fights, and you didn't complain then. I still point them out. I think i may have won one fight due to a mistake. But it's not like i'm keeping score. Orignally posted by fluiddragon I don't use an online roller because my time is constrained, and it takes quite a bit longer to do. Plus I usually work off my lap top with the SRD away form my internet conenction. You certainly didn't complain about the number of high rolls Hurtz had in his fight against the paladin. You won that fight by sheer luck. Hunh? No i didn't. I did not win it on sheer luck. I had a couple of good hits, but he rolled a whole slew of 20's. It was his luck that even made it close. But that's off topic to the discussion, i'm not dredging up the past. I just wanna talk about this particular fight and my percieved attack. Orignally posted by fluiddragon Now you have insulted me directly twice and all but accused me for cheating. If you have a problem you should have emailed me or PM'ed me like an adult not a spoiled kid. I've never ever accused anyone of cheating. Yes, self-admittedly this post was insulting to you. For that i apolagize, i know i sounded crass, but it was a failed attempt at sarcasm. Orignally posted by fluiddragon He only has a 14 Str, as a melee character. Mistake number 1. Every fight I ran you wanted 2 points in expertise, nullifying your hit chances, and you were doing 1d6+2 damage with the scimitar. You did't hit well and most of your opponents AC was over 20 or close to it. And when you DID hit you would do paltry damage. I've played a bunch of monks in the last few years and the way the game is written if you want a front line fighter type monk you NEED a high strength. I am a Ba Qua practitioner and study some other internal martial arts and I am dissapointed that the game mechanics favor strength so much in combat especially for th monk. But the fact is if you want a powerfull MELEE style monk your STR should be as high as possible. The game mechanics demand it. I was planning on rectifying that with a belt of strength. Take for instance my build as it progresses. I play the exact same character in LG and i grappled and did 156 pts of dmg in two rounds to a Huge Green Dragon. And this is all legit core. I had a 45 AC and it was nearly powerless to stop me. Mind you, he's 11th lvl. Hurtz is being built with delayed gratification in mind. Orignally posted by fluiddragon Brackin is a front line melee monk, and is better optimised for 1 on 1 combat. You build might fair better against spell casters. Brackin is a VERY superior grappler than I. And i don't wanna diminish his victory. I'm being dead honest when i thought he'd win to begin with. Orignally posted by fluiddragon To close I think tearing me down in a public forum is childish, and uncalled for. We all make mistakes, and we are all learning from them. I'm man enough to say when I'm wrong. But in this case your tactics were wrong and your build is unsuited towards front line characters like Brackin. You want to point out mistakes then be nice about it. I'm insulted and I think you owe me an appology. -fd I do. Absolutely owe you an apolgy as the way my comments were percieved. My sarcasm goes a little overboard and it's hard to see the face and the voice and know that it wasn't an attack. As i now sit and re-read, i'm just thinking to myself, this guy doesn't really know me. He doesn't really know i had tongue in cheek all the while. The past references were made toward my horrible luck from past fights. Nothing else, not that you couldn't moderate. Egads, that did sound horrible didn't it? Ack! Alright, time to eat my humble pie. munch! munch! munch! Tellish |
| Moherajikuyx12-01-03, 06:38 PM | Tellish, where are the giths? Is it core? Don't tell me it's something not in the SRD MM... Originally posted by MotherBast Hey MO, Brackin and Candessa are now in line with the standard sheet, except I don't use that font, as I don't like it. Can you remove the sheet tag from them now please? You have to add some info like point buy costs and please, set the font to a fixed width one, or try to line up the info at elast (see Cat's sheets) CU tomorro people! |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-01-03, 06:56 PM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Tellish, where are the giths? Is it core? Don't tell me it's something not in the SRD MM... Monster Manual p.129 *EDIT* it was also one of the races discussed a being approved for moderators I've never read the SRD, so i have no idea. Tellish |
| Caterane12-01-03, 07:03 PM | @Cat: Very awesome fight description. Too bad Mara never got those saves. But otherwise, very well done. Forgot something: Thanks to all of you. Your appreciation is the fuel that spurs me on when I`m writing a story though I fear the last one will be my personal favorite for a long time to come. Still going to try to best it this week. @Motherbast: I haven`t published anything yet but after I`ll have finished my current studies I will continue with another degree in some kind of journalism course at Berlin University with the aim of becoming a journalist. And I plan to do an unpaid traineeship as soon as I have time for it. My favorite would be writing novels for WotC of course, but who doesn`t dream of that. @Tellish/Mo: I think I`ll keep up the Harvester/Iron/Kelek storyline. I`m curious how it continues :confused: No idea at the moment. |
| Mercy12-01-03, 07:27 PM | Targ's ready for the next fight. @sloisel - I didn't mean to come off all authoritive about the age enhancement, sorry about that. I was really only looking to see if it had been decided one way or the other. |
| SnarkHunter12-01-03, 07:59 PM | @Tellish Hmm like the character(Nevr). 1 question, under the ride skill you have a +2 competence bonus listed for a masterwork brit and bridle. I looked in the PG and was able to find no such thing. Therefore I reason mischevous elves have crept into my room and bewitched my books into madness. Please do provide a reference for the things and I will have Moon rush out and buy them 1st chance he gets. @Mo: Nevr is a 3rd level character as per Jindle's method. @Cat: Drat it man, when I refered people to the roleplay thread I meant you! Come on man, harvester and Bilo! It'll be awesome! |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-01-03, 08:06 PM | Originally posted by SnarkHunter @Tellish Hmm like the character(Nevr). 1 question, under the ride skill you have a +2 competence bonus listed for a masterwork brit and bridle. I looked in the PG and was able to find no such thing. Therefore I reason mischevous elves have crept into my room and bewitched my books into madness. Please do provide a reference for the things and I will have Moon rush out and buy them 1st chance he gets. It actually listed under Masterwork tools. You can buy tools to assist you with skills. I actually just copy-cat'd that from the other mounted combatants up there. mw tools - handle animal whistle, and mw tools - bit and bridle. I'm not sure what the limits to it are, but when i saw them using it and re-read mw tools, it sounded reasonable and thus purchased one myself. Also, i think Nevrlokagyft is under the wrong tier. I believe he has to start at L3. Githzerai have LA+2. Which really puts me at a HUGE disadvantage. But i will try to optimize him as much as possible considering the circumstances. Kelek was also re-instated under the wrong tier. As much as i'd like to fight the level 4 combatants :D i'm not sure they'd appreciate it. It would be a quick :b: for one of them. Tellish |
| Caterane12-01-03, 08:17 PM | @Snark: I didn`t get an email from the server. You should just reply normally on the roleplay thread - at least I do it. That way I can keep my older "challenge" texts which always add story to my characters. Yours are good too so why delete it? ...oh, and of course: accepted. |
| fluiddragon12-01-03, 08:38 PM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Sooner or later all of us have a bad reaction, I did with Jindl but it passed, tellish & fluid will pass too :angel: Why don't you challenge? Keep this in character! In this spirtit then Fluiddragon Challanges Nev(whateverthehellhisnameis). ( I realize that according to Jindl's method Nev. is a 3rd level character but I don't care just run it as a standard match, should be about even and since I'm the underdog then lemme do it :D, the LA2 race should even out with the lower hitpoints. Besides with similar back storyies it will be interesting. Both have amneasia) I'll post a good storyline challange in the role play thread tuesday. Off to bed 4 me. -fd |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-01-03, 10:18 PM | I don't think that one will fly. He's an L3, fluid is L2. To accept that would open the door to a whole new realm. Instead, Kelek is lvl 6, and so is gage. Thus a more appropriate challenge would be for Gage vs Kelek. Waddya think? Tellish |
| sshuit12-01-03, 10:57 PM | Damn! I think I'm going to have to go to the store and pick one up for Zippy before the next match! *huzzah* Roger of Ravensfield Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket It actually listed under Masterwork tools. You can buy tools to assist you with skills. I actually just copy-cat'd that from the other mounted combatants up there. mw tools - handle animal whistle, and mw tools - bit and bridle. |
| Jindl12-01-03, 11:00 PM | RE: Masterwork Bit and Bridle - Can I claim to be the originator of this idea? Jindl purchased one about 5 levels ago... RE: The unposted Ebelin vs Skymoon - Well, no spoilers, the fighting is over. Just working on the storyline now. Will be posted soon. I promise :) -Jindl |
| SnarkHunter12-01-03, 11:02 PM | Gah! Well Jindle, if I find that 2 points of ride would have made the difference...well...I'll wish I'd read other people's character sheets earlier. @Harvester. Excellent, in any case I find that by not preserving the wayward turns of the muse's pen, every word I write is lent an ephemeral quality, like that of a pond of deep still water which by dawn's light is as clear as the sky and by night is as black as the devils heart. Were it only one or the other, the mystery would be lost, the joy of suprise impossible. Read my work, and enjoy but do not reckon it shall last beyond the turning of the moon. On the other hand...yeah sure, your way sounds more convienent. |
| cellardweller12-01-03, 11:20 PM | Pyre the Cursed vs Paul Hector posted SPOILER *************************** * * * * * * * * * * * The most irrititating game of kiss chasey that I have had the misfortune of running. I ran the fight last night, but noticed at the last minute that I missed the effects of cats grace on escape artist checks- so rounds 14 onward have been redone. Just as I was posting the new version, I noticed that I let pyre execute move actions while fishing out scrolls, as this was advantagous to the loser, I am going to leave it as is. In the end it just came down to the fact that Pyre had no counter for a grapple. **************************************** ******** END SPOILER |
| sshuit12-01-03, 11:40 PM | I feel your pain. Nothing worse than a pursuer / pursued combat to run. On top of it add invisibility, numerous spot/listen checks, it makes for a very dull combat to moderate. I can't wait to see what happens when we get 2 flying mages with invisibility who can't see each other. That should take about 3 weeks to run. I hope the spectators demand their money back. Also that scroll thing is a major issue I've notices. Many spellcaster strats seem to suggest they can draw them as a free action. Only weapons and "weapon like devices" (wands? / staves / rods?) are free to draw as part of a move with a BAB of +1 or better. Scrolls are always a Mv Equiv Action to draw..... Originally posted by cellardweller Pyre the Cursed vs Paul Hector posted SPOILER *************************** * * * * * * * * * * * The most irrititating game of kiss chasey that I have had the misfortune of running. I ran the fight last night, but noticed at the last minute that I missed the effects of cats grace on escape artist checks- so rounds 14 onward have been redone. Just as I was posting the new version, I noticed that I let pyre execute move actions while fishing out scrolls, as this was advantagous to the loser, I am going to leave it as is. In the end it just came down to the fact that Pyre had no counter for a grapple. **************************************** ******** END SPOILER Glad to see Pyre is still cursed :D |
| Jindl12-02-03, 01:05 AM | Ebelin vs Skymoon is posted. I'll reply to any questions, comments, criticism tomorrow. Good night! -Jindl |
| Prexx12-02-03, 01:34 AM | Wow. That one really didn't go as I expected it. Here are a few of the large errors I found during the fight. Three things in general. 1) After Paul is enfeebled (16-3=13 str), he has a +6 to attack with his touch attacks and grapples. This should have been +5 (4 bab + 1 str = 5). 2) After I am buffed up, my touch AC is shown as 16, it is in fact 18 (10 + 6 dex + 1 deflection + 1 size) 3) All through the grappling, Paul was dealing +2 str damage when he should have only been dealing +1 4) All of my excape artist checks show a +5 escape artist roll, when it should have been +6. Round 10: Mounting/Dismounting does not provoke an AoO. The AoO would have been provoked when he attempted his grapple, and since I hit him, he would not have been able to grapple me. Round 13: After I escaped from the grapple(a standard action), I would have moved 60' away, well outside of Paul's attack range since he can only move 20'. Round 14: If it were not for Paul's miscalculated grapple bonus, I would have escaped again. Round 15: If it were not for Paul's miscalculated grapple bonus, I would have escaped yet again. Round 19: If it were not for Paul's miscalculate strength bonus, I would still have hitpoints to spare when he incapacitated me. <shrug> Ohh well. I didn't explicitly spell out my tactics for a grapple, but I didn't mention it because I figured with Ray of Enfeeblement and my high dex bonus, I didn't need to be too worried about it. Also, if RoE would have rolled a bit higher, the grapple really would not have been an issue. I also didn't expect to see so many errors through the fight. I really think that I would have easily won that fight if it were not for the errors. The downside to this of course is that I was really putting all my eggs in one basket with this fight. Now that I have lost, I do not have enough money to buy scrolls for my next fight. I would ask that I have the scrolls that I used returned, because without those scrolls, I am almost certain to lose my future fights. |
| SnarkHunter12-02-03, 01:46 AM | Nice fight Jindle, I only noticed one thing (so far heh), displacement is rounds, not minutes. |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-02-03, 02:01 AM | Originally posted by Prexx Round 13: After I escaped from the grapple(a standard action), I would have moved 60' away, well outside of Paul's attack range since he can only move 20'. You'd provoke though, just to let you know, since you did something other than a double move. But no matter though, i would have still moved being in your shoes, so understantable.. You've already covered the major points so that's about all. Just throwing my two cents in. Tellish |
| cellardweller12-02-03, 02:57 AM | Originally posted by Prexx Three things in general. 1) After Paul is enfeebled (16-3=13 str), he has a +6 to attack with his touch attacks and grapples. This should have been +5 (4 bab + 1 str = 5). Yep, I was still adding in the +1 from his being mounted. Those of you who used to read the old ready 2 rumble would know that most of my fights are full of these random number juggling errors. If you'll look closer you'll see other things like 5+6=12 too - It usually balances out between the players, but I don't know if that's any consolation to you. 2) After I am buffed up, my touch AC is shown as 16, it is in fact 17 (10 + 5 dex + 1 deflection + 1 size) Had no affect on the outcome - and it shold probably be noted that 16 was the value supplied by you on Pyre's character sheet. 3) All through the grappling, Paul was dealing +2 str damage when he should have only been dealing +1 seel 1). Round 10: Mounting/Dismounting does not provoke an AoO. The AoO would have been provoked when he attempted his grapple, and since I hit him, he would not have been able to grapple me. Paul dismounted and then moved 20, it was the move that caused the AoO not the dismount. Round 13: After I escaped from the grapple(a standard action), I would have moved 60' away, well outside of Paul's attack range since he can only move 20'. I just went to the srd to quote it at you only to discover that I had misread the sentence "If you escape, you finish the action ..." as "If you escape, you finish the turn ..." every time. It had no effect on the outcome as moving would have provoked an AoO - and you are back in the grapple anyway and Paul would have had another opportunity to deal damage to Pyre. Round 14: ... Round 15: ... Round 19: ... Again, I don't see this as making any significant difference because Pyre wasn't getting away. |
| Prexx12-02-03, 03:07 AM | @Tellish - That is correct, I would have provoked an AoO, but it would have been a whole hell of a lot better than sitting there and doing nothing, allowing him to continue grappling me. All in all, I think that the fight would have been a very easy victory for Pyre if it weren't for all the mistakes. Paul dismounted and then moved 20, it was the move that caused the AoO not the dismount. Moving does not provoke an attack of opportunity either, unless you are moving OUT of a threatened area. He would not have provoked an AoO by moving up to attack me. Again, I restate, he only would have provoked the AoO by initiating the grapple, which would have been in turn blocked. And since I would have never been grappled in the first place, I would be free to double move away and proceed to blast the pretty much helpless knight into pieces. I just went to the srd to quote it at you only to discover that I had misread the sentence "If you escape, you finish the action ..." as "If you escape, you finish the turn ..." every time. It had no effect on the outcome as moving would have provoked an AoO - and you are back in the grapple anyway and Paul would have had another opportunity to deal damage to Pyre. First, if you read the Escape from a Grapple section under grappling in the SRD it states "You can make an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check if you so desire, but this requires a standard action." I don't see how this can be misinterpreted, it is very clear. Second, on rounds 13, 14, and 15, when I would have escaped, he would need to succeed a touch attack (+5 touch vs 18 touch AC, giving me a 60% chance to avoid AoO, 3 chances to escape gives me 93.4% chance that I would have been able to escape on at least one of those attempts, but with the error in round 10, I never should have been grappled in the first place). If I would have been free, it would have been all over for Paul. He would be unable to even come close to me as I could match his full run speed with a single move action. Had no affect on the outcome - and it shold probably be noted that 16 was the value supplied by you on Pyre's character sheet. I think I demonstrated that it would have had a very significant effect on the outcome of the battle. And the value of 16 listed on Pyre's character sheet is without Cat's Grace. I was assuming that you would factor that in when I cast the spell, but I suppose I will be more careful in the future. I also noticed another error. On round 9, Pyre suffered an AoO when he moved away. He would not have taken a AoO as all he did that round was move, thus the square he starts in is not considered threatened. It wouldn't really have infuenced anything though, because the attack missed. I'm not trying to be disrespectful. I understand that errors happen, and they are to be expected. I'm just surprised to see so many of them. Especially big battle altering ones like these. I would make a small request from everybody that since my battle was filled with so many errors that I be granted a small exception to the rules. I am willing to accept the loss, but I would request that my scrolls that I used during the battle be returned, as I do not have sufficient money to purchase more scrolls, and without those scrolls, I am almost certain to not have enough firepower to win my next fight. |
| fluiddragon12-02-03, 03:36 AM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket I don't think that one will fly. He's an L3, fluid is L2. To accept that would open the door to a whole new realm. Instead, Kelek is lvl 6, and so is gage. Thus a more appropriate challenge would be for Gage vs Kelek. Waddya think? Tellish Sounds good. I didn't see him on the roster. -fd |
| Caterane12-02-03, 03:55 AM | First hit a critical??? http://www.sebastian-sutor.de/smilies/kotz.gif |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-02-03, 04:26 AM | Originally posted by Caterane First hit a critical??? http://www.sebastian-sutor.de/smilies/kotz.gif Now you know who Zoranders' opponents must feel. Actually, not to dump salt in an already opened wound, but i imagine you feel worse as you were almost fully buffed. Zoranders opponents never really had a chance to even act. LOL. @fluid...ok. Gage vs Kelek. It still may not happen as there is an uneven number. But we can keep our fingers crossed. Tellish |
| Moherajikuyx12-02-03, 06:06 AM | I'm sad to see that even with one only fight for moderators, some fights are not ran even as of tuesday. They shall be. Now we have to wait again. I think we have to stop with the delays. Of course I'm not the one who can teach persons to respect the given word, but I'm going to add the other side of the moderators' credits, the moderators uncredits. Now the credits are +ses, when someone has a delay he will get a - (it subtracts from the +ses, it happened to barrel this week) I will not accept more than 2 gladiators from those who have two delays, while growing up in the delays will make people risk to be removed from the moderators list. Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket Also, i think Nevrlokagyft is under the wrong tier. I believe he has to start at L3. Githzerai have LA+2. Which really puts me at a HUGE disadvantage. Don't forget that as for Jindl's proposal it counts as two pcs, too. You could have to moderate from 3 to 4 fights this week. Are you sure? I think no one posted moderators requests for this week, did I miss anything? Tell me. Prexx - sorry about, but there are no exceptions of that kind. |
| Pitlords12-02-03, 06:06 AM | I'm sad to see that even with one only fight for moderators, some fights are not ran even as of tuesday. They shall be. Now we have to wait again. I think we have to stop with the delays. Of course I'm not the one who can teach persons to respect the given word, but I'm going to add the other side of the moderators' credits, the moderators uncredits. Now the credits are +ses, when someone has a delay he will get a - (it subtracts from the +ses, it happened to barrel this week) I will not accept more than 2 gladiators from those who have two delays, while growing up in the delays will make people risk to be removed from the moderators list. Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket Also, i think Nevrlokagyft is under the wrong tier. I believe he has to start at L3. Githzerai have LA+2. Which really puts me at a HUGE disadvantage. Don't forget that as for Jindl's proposal it counts as two pcs, too. You could have to moderate from 3 to 4 fights this week. Are you sure? I think no one posted moderators requests for this week, did I miss anything? Tell me. Prexx - sorry about, but there are no exceptions of that kind. |
| Prexx12-02-03, 07:18 AM | That seems pretty unfair to me. Now I will be forced to sell my amulet of natural armor at half price in order to get enough money to buy scrolls for my next fight. I'm not asking for the fight to be reversed, or for a rerun of the fight, I'm perfectly willing to accept the loss. But it does seem wrong that I have to lose 1166gp (1000 gp for the amulet, and 166 gp for the scrolls, roughly 22% of my character's total worth) just because of someone else's mistakes. Are they any alternatives that might be available? |
| LLMadCow12-02-03, 07:45 AM | @ALL I am climbing back onto my high horse. Most recently Prexx has become the victim, or so he feels, of a misran fight. Now, after looking over the fight and the evidence, I would seem to agree with him. This forces me to make the comment... The Core Arena is all about playtesting viable builds and seeing how they play out. If a character has too many bad fights, the build does not get to get tested at the higher levels very easily and resources are wasted and it all becomes a mess. I am sure that some PCs have ben dropped after too many losses. I know that Lothar did not level as fast as he would have if not for a few errors. I am still debating on if I want to bring him back into the arena after I finish moving. This brings me to Error Points. What are error points? After any given fight, the contestants have the right to contest the fights outcome. 3 moderators will be the judges of the fight. (The fight contestants and the fight moderator cannot be judges in this process, although the fight moderator may be consulted by the panel of judges.) The contestant posts his grievance, and a panel of mederators will be chosen at random. The list of judges will be e-mailed to the player and he can e-mail his arguement to them and/or post it on the message boards. From here, each of the judges votes. If at least 2 out of the 3 agree, the player gets an Error Point. Once a player has 2, or perhaps 3, Error Points all of the points get erased and the following occurs: The PC advances 1 lvl as if he had won a fight - All appropriate gold awarded. The PC gets to erase one loss form their total win/loss record. So, what do you think? I think this makes losses from misran tactics and misran rules a little easier to swallow. Many of us, and I speak from first hand, are still learning the rules and getting to better understand the play dynamics. This is supposed to be a learning expeience for the players and the moderators. |
| Moherajikuyx12-02-03, 08:00 AM | This carries many risks, of offending people and of abuse, but it is an idea with a solid reason. I need other opinions. In the meanwhile MCT asked that someone else runs Tomah the Iceman, Jindl chllngs Spike, Market_Share Cellar is the offer of running 4 fights still active? |
| LLMadCow12-02-03, 08:09 AM | Quote by Moherajikuyx This carries many risks, of offending people and of abuse, but it is an idea with a solid reason. I agree that there are risks. That is why if I was a judge, I would consult with the fight moderator. Perhaps we even ask that when a fight is challenged, that the contestant and the moderator e-mail their side. I think in some instances the moderator would agree that they messed up. As I said, most people agree that we make mistakes and we do our best to learn from them. As for abuse, perhaps we treat this in a similar fashion as the NFL treats questioning the call on a play? Each team has the option to question a play, but if they do and they are wrong, the lose a time out. Maybe allow PCs 2 Challenge Points to question fights, and if your contesting of the fight results in an Error Point you do not lose any Challenge Points, but if no Error Point are awarded, the PC loses 1 Challenge Point. Award 2 more Challenge Points at 10th level? |
| fluiddragon12-02-03, 08:47 AM | I think LL has a good idea. With the error points. Sometimes a mistake is so bad that it causes the fight to be lost and if you expend a lot of resources on the fight it can make it difficult to recover, and even make the character unviable. I know 2 of my characters rely heavily on 1 shot items right now and if I was in a long fight and lost becuase of errors it would be hard to recover. My last fight against Cur cost me 2000gp. If I lost because of an error and not bad luck or bad tactics I'd be ticked. LL's idea does help rectify this situation. I support it. -fd |
| cellardweller12-02-03, 08:58 AM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Cellar is the offer of running 4 fights still active? It's already past cd's bedtime, so theres no way I can do it now. If you are prepared to wait till ~12pm GMT 3/12 I will run it when I get back from work tommorrow. |
| SnarkHunter12-02-03, 09:17 AM | I don't think the error point system is a bad idea but it just seems to complicated to implement fairly in practice. Mo there is one possibility for the two fights yet to be run. Both are in the level 3 bracket. So what you could do is go ahead with the pairings as normal today and tomorrow (assuming fights get posted by tonight) you could pair the winners with winners and the losers with the losers. Just a thought to keep things moving. Also I can't help noticing that ZOrander and Bruno are still inactive. Yes Mag hasn't updated to a standard sheet, but if they remain inactiveted then both the level 4 and the level 7 will be uneven. Given that, I think you can make an exception for this week. |
| Caterane12-02-03, 09:33 AM | Error points :thumbsup: I would also suggest to receive "Bad luck points", "Killed again by a critical" points and "Hups!? Cat DID sent me tactics. :eek: " - points. If we agree on this then please relocate Ebelin and the Harvester to level 30. :smirk: Yeah yeah, just kidding. |
| Irlina12-02-03, 10:02 AM | Error Points are a good idea, whoever I think the only possibility is asking the mod whether he believes his possible error changes the outcome of the fight. We have to trust the mods anyway and anything else would most likely produce bad blood. @Fluiddragron Challange accepted, however Ydaf will change a little bit till tomorrow. Only some minor changes though (equipment and perhaps one lvl of fighter). Don't worry, I will not customize on this fight ;) @Cat Bad luck... this is my 2nd name, so stay quiet. |
| Jindl12-02-03, 10:15 AM | Re: Displacement 1 ROUND / lvl - Got it. Um, why Snark, did you use this in the first round, the duration was almost over by the time you made the first attack? Shouldn't you have waited 'til like the 3rd round to do it, and used longer duration spells/potions first? Re: Cricticals (@Cat) - Well, Moon-moon has about a 4% chance of critting on any given hit. It was bound to happen eventually. I'm sorry it happened to you. But then, it could be Karma balancing out the Harvester's devastating critical charge a couple of weeks ago... Re: Error points - I like LL's idea, but I suggest 4 modifications: 1. The first is the "panel of judges". On this board there have been several requests for advice from Senior Moderators. It has never been clearly stated who the senior mod's are, but I beleive the list is : Moherajikuyx, Snarkhunter, Jindl, Magagumo, and Caterane. Tellish of Ket and LLMadCow could possibly be added to the list as well, although they rarely moderate the higher level fights. If this is an accurate list, then I would suggest that the panel be drawn from these senior moderators. Actually, I don't think we need to randomly select three. A better idea, IMO, is to just have all 5 (or 7) of the senior mod's vote on whether to grant an error point, regardless of whether they were involved in the fight. All of the above 5 (or 7) are impartial, knowlegable, and fair (IMO). And if one person was involved, there are still 6 other votes in the panel's decision. 2. Voting would be done via email to Moherajikuyx, who would tally and post the results as part of his normal bookkeeping on the roster. Discussion would take place on this thread as normal. The vote's would be Yes (Error point), No (no error point), or Abstain. Error points would only be granted when the fight outcome would Most Likely be different if the error(s) didn't occur. Again this doesn't mean, "I might have had a chance if you didn't mess up." It means "I can say with great probability that I would have won if the mod didn't make this error." 3. In addition to the 3 error points equaling an automatic advancement for the "victim" (and I use the term VERY losely), I would suggest a similar sanction vs. any moderator who receives error points. For each error point you get, you cannot moderate for 1 round. That means that you cannot have more than 1 active character during that round that you must not moderate. After sitting out your 1 round, your error point disappears and you can re-activate all of your characters. 4. Finally, I would suggest that an error point be sanctioned against any moderator who fails to finish and post a fight by a certain deadline, say Tuesday 0:00 GMT ?? I am as guilty as anyone about posting fights late, but we really must stop this. This is my suggestion to try and improve LLMadCow's already good idea... -Jindl |
| Jindl12-02-03, 10:40 AM | @Cat and Moherajikuyx - Looking at 8th lvl, I see we have three combatants. Since the Elder didn't fight last week, he would definately fight this week. So it's between Ebelin and Iron. Well, normally Iron would be out due to "least number policy." But, I would actually like the Elder to challenge the undefeated Iron. If he wins then the Elder becomes the gladiator with the best record (7 and 1 compared to Iron's 6 and 1). So Cat, would you be so kind as to allow Iron and the Elder to fight this round? It'd be great if you wanted to moderate that fight too :) If Ebelin did sit out, there would be an even number next round at level 8, including the winners of Bilo v Harvester and Bruno v Mara. Please, Cat? Pretty please? -Jindl EDIT: The Elder's challenge is posted on the roleplay thread. :) |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-02-03, 12:37 PM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx In the meanwhile MCT asked that someone else runs Tomah the Iceman, Jindl chllngs Spike, Market_Share I will run it. I'm here all day today and tomorrow. I'll have plenty of time. Jindl and Market_Share plz send me your tactics. I'll get this done as soon as i receive both. Tellish |
| LLMadCow12-02-03, 12:48 PM | Well, I am glad to see that my idea for an Error Point system is being received well. Having read over everyone's responses there seems to be a solid need for some refinement. @Jindl - Point 1 - I agree with the 5 senior moderators - Moherajikuyx, Snarkhunter, Jindl, Magagumo, and Caterane. I am also cool with it if you decide to include Tellish of Ket and LLMadCow. Point 2 - I agree on your style of voting to make everything fair. Point 3 - Although I like the idea, I am not sure how viable it is. If we have someone who messes up 1 fight, out of the 4 he ran that week, do we really want him to be unable to run fights for the next week? That puts a lot of extra pressure on the rest of the mods. (BTW - I should be back to modding next week, after the 12th, when I am finished moving.) Imagine if we have 2 people who messed up bad for a total of 2 out of 6 fights, and so those 6 fights get spread among the senior mods, we end up with 1 extra fight each. I know I normally have time to run fights on my days off - Monday or Tuesday, and that pushes things to the limit. Point 4 - If you award error points for fights not run, then give me until Tuesday night to get mine in. As said in Point 3, I work Wednesday - Sunday and have precious little time to run during those days. @Irlina Good point there. I am torn between your recommendation and Jindl's Point 1. I shall list my ultimate respons to these two at the bottom of this post... @Caterane :nonono: @SnarkHunter Sometimes for things to be fair they must be a little complicated. @fluiddragon Thanks for the support. Now for my thoughts on the Irlina vs Jindl idea. Do we just ask the Fight Moderator if he messed up, or do with stick with the panel of Senior Moderators? Well, I feel that in all fairness we should go with the panel of Senior Moderators. Afterall, the Fight Moderator already had a chance to review the fight and post it correctly, but he messed up. Also the panel of Senior Moderators should be impartial. Although I still feel that if a Senior Moderator modded the fight that is up for vote, they do not get a vote on the outcome of the Error Point and a second judge will sit out, likely Tellish of Ket or LLMadCow, since we appear to be the Junior Moderators of those Seniors. :) |
| Tyreus12-02-03, 01:27 PM | @all I think the error point system is a good idea, but the idea of only using the core books is simplicity, so I think if we use this we should use other 3.5 books. (complete warrior, book of exalted deeds, ect.) (yes, this is a dirty, underminded ploy to use books with some of my favorite material, so this post should be ignored:smirk: ) |
| Caterane12-02-03, 01:33 PM | @Jindl: Seems like it`s very important to you so I voluntarily sit out this week with Ebelin (and Ebelin + Elder are best friends; difficult to imagine a fight between them). But I want to read something from the Elder on the Roleplaying thread how it comes that Ebelin sits out ;) In this case I have only 1 character running so no moderation from my side this week. That fits perfectly in because I have to hold another paper on on monday. |
| Magagumo12-02-03, 02:23 PM | Um, Moh, you have entered Bruno and Zoarnder back into the postngs, correct? I did request that a few pages back and I'd like them to be my two combatants this week (Noir sits out, though I would like to know what happened to him and Hanz) |
| Market_Share12-02-03, 02:34 PM | Sounds like a plausible idea. But i haven't been around to truely guage the effects of error moderating. I try to read all the fights and spot many errors, but i joined this expecting that. So it's no biggy to me if mine are riddled with mistakes and i lose. My life takes place outside the arena anyhow. Plus the fact that even though i may have lost, it doesn't dimish the fact that i know my build works. A character can be optimized and still lose, even if it's due to an error. Oh well. C'est la vie, et je vous remercie! SPIKE EDIT: I just read above that my fight hasn't been done yet. Heheh, i actually forgot all about it. LOL. I had a very lengthy and detailed tactics sent out to the moderator, so if he can forward that to Tellish_of_Ket i'd much appreciate that. In the event that you do not however, i will begin working on an abbreviated version and at least the guy will have some tactics to moderate the fight with. Abbreviated tactics being drawn up and sent as soon as i'm done with this. Looks like the fans are in an uproar Jim, the Shillelagh Club Kid doesn't look like he wants to come out? Can you blame him Tom? Would you wanna face that savage dwarf? You got a point there Jim. I can't say i blame the man. He may be a neanderthal, but he's not that dumb. We now break for this prestidigitation. Brought to you by: "Vermin Scrolls Service Inc. If it doesn't stink, don't waste your ink". . |
| Jindl12-02-03, 02:54 PM | Originally posted by LLMadCow Well, I am glad to see that my idea for an Error Point system is being received well. Having read over everyone's responses there seems to be a solid need for some refinement. @Jindl - Point 3 - Although I like the idea, I am not sure how viable it is. If we have someone who messes up 1 fight, out of the 4 he ran that week, do we really want him to be unable to run fights for the next week? That puts a lot of extra pressure on the rest of the mods. (BTW - I should be back to modding next week, after the 12th, when I am finished moving.) Imagine if we have 2 people who messed up bad for a total of 2 out of 6 fights, and so those 6 fights get spread among the senior mods, we end up with 1 extra fight each. I know I normally have time to run fights on my days off - Monday or Tuesday, and that pushes things to the limit. Point 4 - If you award error points for fights not run, then give me until Tuesday night to get mine in. As said in Point 3, I work Wednesday - Sunday and have precious little time to run during those days. On point 3, I see where you're coming from on the error points for moderators. I hadn't considered the multiple fight effect. Perhaps we should instead make the sanction: Each error point given to a moderator for a significant mistake shall result in one of the moderator's active characters sitting out during the next round. The sanctioned moderator shall run one less fight during this next round as a result of having one less character. Hopefully this will allow them more time to work on the fight(s) they still have to run, and this extra time can be spent ensuring that the fight is more free of errors. On point 4, Mo has set the deadline at Sunday night. I suggested awarding an error point at the end of Monday. Posting a fight on Tuesday with pairings on Wednesday is not reasonable to the players. Also, I would remind everyone that a moderator is within his rights to begin a fight without tactics if the tactics are not received by the end of the day, Friday (@ Magagumo !!!). Hopefully, if you get the tactics earlier, then you will have less trouble meeting the deadline, LLMadCow. @Cat - Thanks! The Elder greatly appreciates it. Bubo, on the other hand, is a little worried... @Tellish - Thanks for running the fight. If MCT can forward my emailed tactics that would be great. I have them saved on my home computer, but won't be able to send them to you for another 4 hours or so... and they are a bit long to rewrite. I'll get them to you later, but hopefully MCT can forward them to you. -Jindl |
| barrel_master12-02-03, 02:55 PM | Well here is a fight http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1978639#post1978639 As always point out errors. I don't know if the whole 'potion drawing as a free action' thing was officially settled but I went the the 'you can do it with a move action' side for this fight. |
| LLMadCow12-02-03, 03:06 PM | @Tellish - Check your e-mail shortly. |
| barrel_master12-02-03, 03:07 PM | Originally posted by LLMadCow @ALL The Core Arena is all about playtesting viable builds and seeing how they play out. If a character has too many bad fights, the build does not get to get tested at the higher levels very easily and resources are wasted and it all becomes a mess. I am sure that some PCs have ben dropped after too many losses. I know that Lothar did not level as fast as he would have if not for a few errors. I am still debating on if I want to bring him back into the arena after I finish moving. This brings me to Error Points. What are error points? After any given fight, the contestants have the right to contest the fights outcome. 3 moderators will be the judges of the fight. (The fight contestants and the fight moderator cannot be judges in this process, although the fight moderator may be consulted by the panel of judges.) The contestant posts his grievance, and a panel of mederators will be chosen at random. The list of judges will be e-mailed to the player and he can e-mail his arguement to them and/or post it on the message boards. From here, each of the judges votes. If at least 2 out of the 3 agree, the player gets an Error Point. Once a player has 2, or perhaps 3, Error Points all of the points get erased and the following occurs: The PC advances 1 lvl as if he had won a fight - All appropriate gold awarded. The PC gets to erase one loss form their total win/loss record. So, what do you think? I think this makes losses from misran tactics and misran rules a little easier to swallow. Many of us, and I speak from first hand, are still learning the rules and getting to better understand the play dynamics. This is supposed to be a learning expeience for the players and the moderators. Hummm... I'd say that the point of the arena is NOT to test builds but rather, the point is to have fun... people seriously shouldn't let a loss affect them too much even if there were mistakes. In all honesty, it's in your best interests, just think about it, how does your life improve by being upset that one of your internet D&D characters my no longer be viable? I kinda like your point system though... however the violation would have to be so utterly horrific that it was absolutely clear that the mod put no effort at all into the fight. If we begin to offer even the smallest reward for complaining I fear that the boards will turn into a giant flame fest. |
| Market_Share12-02-03, 03:13 PM | Originally posted by barrel_master Well here is a fight http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1978639#post1978639 As always point out errors. I don't know if the whole 'potion drawing as a free action' thing was officially settled but I went the the 'you can do it with a move action' side for this fight. Hey there....Yay, i'm the first to comment on it. Two things i see. I didn't totally analyze each step, so this is just off the top of my head. 1. You cannot draw a potion as part of a move. Only weapons or weapon-like objects. 2. The viper is a tiny creature and would provoke as it had to move into Noir's square to attack. Nothing earth-shattering. EDIT: Just throwing my peas into the soup from stuff i've read that has passed that i'm only getting around to reading now. [i]p.160 phb[i] You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action. You can take a 5-step as part of your readied action, but only if you don't otherwise move any distance during the round. Looks to me like the readied action was a'ok. Anyhow. It's probably old news. That was at least a page ago. I just didn't see any replies to it. SPIKE |
| barrel_master12-02-03, 03:21 PM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx I'm sad to see that even with one only fight for moderators, some fights are not ran even as of tuesday. They shall be. Now we have to wait again. I think we have to stop with the delays. Of course I'm not the one who can teach persons to respect the given word, but I'm going to add the other side of the moderators' credits, the moderators uncredits. Now the credits are +ses, when someone has a delay he will get a - (it subtracts from the +ses, it happened to barrel this week) I will not accept more than 2 gladiators from those who have two delays, while growing up in the delays will make people risk to be removed from the moderators list. Don't forget that as for Jindl's proposal it counts as two pcs, too. You could have to moderate from 3 to 4 fights this week. Are you sure? I think no one posted moderators requests for this week, did I miss anything? Tell me. Prexx - sorry about, but there are no exceptions of that kind. Your right, I'm sorry the fight is late. The delayed credit system is something I support. However there is something I'd like to mention... coming into this week I had 2 credits... one was taken out because we all had 1 credit, where did the other go? Or was I mistaken in thinking I had 2 credits coming into this week? One more thing... even though we're supposed to be min/maxers here, the idea of having Paul fighting Faldion (another paladin) is so distatefull that I'm willing to widthdraw paul inorder to avoid fighting faldion. Is there anyway we could garantee that the 2 of us won't be fighting? |
| SnarkHunter12-02-03, 03:27 PM | Well LL I must admit your idea is starting to grow on me. I also admit being considered a senior moderator is gratifying to the ego :D. To Jindle's suggestion I would say, why not consider the error point an extra character? Chances are unless the mod wants to run 3-4 fights they'll drop a character anyway. Seems more harmonious with our system of credits too. Quick question, what timezone are we using for all this? I'm in eastern U.S. myself, which is 5 hours behind greenwich mean. I also agree with the tactcs in by Friday @ midnight (GMT-See this site for details (http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/)). If you send them afterwards and they haven't be run I think I would still accept them. If I've already started it though-you're out of luck. Likewise a posting deadline of say noon GMT Tuesday? We can make exceptions for people with persistant modding conflicts I think. @Jindle. yeah i noticed that after I sent tactics. Never came up though :). |
| barrel_master12-02-03, 03:33 PM | Originally posted by Market_Share Hey there....Yay, i'm the first to comment on it. Two things i see. I didn't totally analyze each step, so this is just off the top of my head. 1. You cannot draw a potion as part of a move. Only weapons or weapon-like objects. 2. The viper is a tiny creature and would provoke as it had to move into Noir's square to attack. Nothing earth-shattering. SPIKE Thank you for your feedback. I keep on forgetting the 'tiny' creatures thing. As for the potions, humm... I kinda say that 'Drawing a weapon so that you can use it in combat, or putting it away so that you have a free hand, requires a move action. This action also applies to weapon-like objects carried in easy reach, such as wands. If your weapon or weapon-like object is stored in a pack or otherwise out of easy reach, treat this action as retrieving a stored item.' and that it applies to potions. Please, by all means, if you feel I'm wrong point it out. I'd be glad to learn something. |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-02-03, 03:37 PM | Tactics recieved for Tomah and Spike. I see you're both online, so come back in a few hrs and it will be posted. Tellish |
| SnarkHunter12-02-03, 03:40 PM | Spike I think you're correct on both points. And well I may be biased but I don't think either incident made a huge difference. Also Barrel_Master, I agree on the here to have fun part. Thats why I do it! I would suggest as guidelines for post fight appeals to the mods; 1. One post per Player-which may be edited as desired. 2. No personal attacks (Obviosuly this applies at all times, but I think it an important reminder when folks get heated about this). 3. All other communications pertaining to the fight in question handled by e-mail or PM. |
| Jindl12-02-03, 03:42 PM | Originally posted by Market_Share Hey there....Yay, i'm the first to comment on it. Two things i see. I didn't totally analyze each step, so this is just off the top of my head. 1. You cannot draw a potion as part of a move. Only weapons or weapon-like objects. 2. The viper is a tiny creature and would provoke as it had to move into Noir's square to attack. Nothing earth-shattering. SPIKE A couple of other mistakes ... - Mage armor is not supposed to be part of the touch AC for a ray of enfeeblement spell... - Although it is an intelligent move to drop expertise, that is a metagaming effect and it is bad, bad, very bad for a moderator to adjust someone's tactics based on a knowledge of what the opponent needs to roll to hit you. These things had little effect on the fight, which was won through Hanz's good luck more than anything else (just look at his rolls...) -Jindl |
| SnarkHunter12-02-03, 03:46 PM | Well I did say in my tactics to improvise. I don't think dropping the expertise at that point was overly metagaming. |
| Jindl12-02-03, 04:11 PM | Originally posted by SnarkHunter Well I did say in my tactics to improvise. I don't think dropping the expertise at that point was overly metagaming. Really? You don't think that Hanz's knowledge that Noir could only hit AC 24 on a 20 after the ray of enfeeblement dropped his Str, and thus you could regain a +2 on your to hit (improving you chances by 10%) without it changing what Noir needed to roll to hit you ... you don't think that's metagaming? I think it is. And more importantly, this is metagaming by a moderator. It's not like your tactics said, "If I connect with the R.o.E. then drop expertise because he probably can't hit me anyway..." Player strategies are not subject to my "bad, bad, very bad" comment. But a moderator making this adjustment for a character during the fight, a character who btw, has no way of knowing how tough it actually is for Noir to hit him... is just wrong. -Jindl |
| Magagumo12-02-03, 04:36 PM | Um.. why do I have a -20 to my hide? If I move at 40' a round, I have a -5 to my checks... Now, I will admit that the 4 on the roll probably hurt me (what with only having a +6 to hit) so the 10 would not have hit the AC of 20 (no dex mod), but I just dislike being seen when there was a good chance I wouldn't have been... Ah well, higher AC and bluffing won the day, good job Snark. I think Noir is being given up, he just doesn't have any ability to win it seems. As for my new idea, it will have to wait awhile, as I will need a 3rd level character in order to pull it off. Remove Noir from the charts, Moh, he's done. Quote for Noir's demise, "I guess monk's just can't win if they don't grapple, but Sneak attack would have been so very nice in 3 levels." |
| Jindl12-02-03, 04:56 PM | Originally posted by Magagumo Um.. why do I have a -20 to my hide? If I move at 40' a round, I have a -5 to my checks... I was wondering the same thing, then I took a closer look at the hide skill and the penalties for moving in the SRD. from the SRD, under Hide Skill You can move up to one-half your normal speed and hide at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty. It’s practically impossible (–20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging. With a move of 40 in one move action ... if you were moving 20 or less, no penalty. If moving 25-35 feet, then its a -5 penalty. A move of 40 feet or more would be the -20 penalty. The key is the words "but less than your normal speed" ... -Jindl |
| Moherajikuyx12-02-03, 04:56 PM | Originally posted by Magagumo Um, Moh, you have entered Bruno and Zoarnder back into the postngs, correct? Wops! Now doing Originally posted by Caterane @Jindl: Seems like it`s very important to you so I voluntarily sit out this week with Ebelin Grandpa still up? Gotta get to bed... :D Originally posted by SnarkHunter why not consider the error point an extra character? Yes that's a good proposal. It combines well with the +/-credit system. I wouldn't punish anymore for errors, I would be the most sanctioned moderator :rofl: Also, this board serves well as a training center, so any punishments would really be against its advantage: moderators go, moderators have to keep coming, and if they're inexperienced there's no need to be rough. Originally posted by SnarkHunter Quick question, what timezone are we using for all this? I'll give the -credit at 10:00 am of tuesdays, ctrl EU (GMT -1). That's really similar to the "end of monday" for Americans. Originally posted by barrel_master coming into this week I had 2 credits... one was taken out because we all had 1 credit, where did the other go? It was removed because one delay -credit equals one credit: +1-1=0 I don't think we need anything more complicated. Originally posted by SnarkHunter 2. No personal attacks Right, those would make the request automatically void. Mag - if you halve the last sentence, it will fit without resizing :) *edit* Also,Originally posted by SnarkHunter Yes Mag hasn't updated to a standard sheet, but if they remain inactiveted then both the level 4 and the level 7 will be uneven. Given that, I think you can make an exception for this week. I would really like if we begin to standardize the old sheets. |
| MotherBast12-02-03, 06:07 PM | Ok MO, Brackin and Candessa now both use courier as there font, and both sheets have all the information the standard sheet asks for, in the place it is listed on the standard sheet. Can I go outside and play now? I cleaned my room too, honest. As far as the error points thing.... I like the idea, and a lot of good checks and balences floating around out there. I don't think it should be instuted this week, however. Maybe next week, after taking some time to pound out a set in stone method, and one not rushed to be ready for the weekends fights. It should then be added to the FAQ on the gladiators thread, before being concidered official. I really see no reason for a vote, as nearly everyone has said its a good idea, but the method should still be scrutinazied heavly before this is put into play, or every lost fight will result in a challange, and the Senior Mods will be so busy voting, they wont get to Mod or fight. Honestly, It could take an hour to review the rules errors in a single fight, and then determin if those errors had an ending altering affect on the fight. If three people in one week challence, thats as much as 3 hours that each of our Senior Mods spends reviewing the fight. More control over the issuing of challenges is certanly needed, and a punishment for falty or frivilous challenges certanly needs to be put into place. Of course, deciding these things is the job of the Senior Mods, thankfully, so I can say all of this knowing I wont be required to do any of the actual work. This is just my impartal voice. @Prexx, while I can't say I know how you feel, as none of my lost fights were due to errors, I can say for certain you arn't the first to loose a very expensive fight due to Mod errors. A pressadent already exists for not refunding any spent recorces, and to make an exception for you now, while it might seem fair to you, would be ever so greatly unfair to all who came before and all who will come after you. As far as what other options are available to you, since the character is only level 4, with a 2 and 4 record, is it out of the question to simply start over, using the same build, and learn from this character to improve the next? It seems drastic, but your character isen't named the cursed for being lucky. Maybe a name change is what was needed all along. @fluid, so, If Gage fights Tellish's character, I'm assuming he forfits his chance at Candy? Pity, I was kinda hoping Gage won, I like his style. Of course, Octavian is much better looking, so I supose Candy will be satisfied. Lol. Well.... thats my, let me see.... 2, 4, 6, yep, thats my 8 cents, now I'm gona catch up on all the recent fights. |
| fluiddragon12-02-03, 06:13 PM | @fluid, so, If Gage fights Tellish's character, I'm assuming he forfits his chance at Candy? Pity, I was kinda hoping Gage won, I like his style. Of course, Octavian is much better looking, so I supose Candy will be satisfied. Lol. Don't rule him out yet. There is an uneven number of oppopnents in level 6 so I may not fight or Tellish my not fight. But Gage is much cooler than Octavian! That match might still take place, as Tellish and I both have 3 char so more than likely I will fight octavian. I think Brackin deserves to fight Rito no rolling for that. Let the casters fight each other and let the monks bash each other. |
| MotherBast12-02-03, 06:21 PM | I was just reading up on the last couple of fights and I noticed that in the Hanz vs. Noir fight, on the last round Noir had 6 HP, is hit for 3 damage, and dies.... Either his HP is listed wrong on the next to last round, or he still has 3 HP..... He is dead either way as I see it. |
| Moherajikuyx12-02-03, 06:25 PM | MB - :P This week there's a lot of new rules and some delays, so probably it's best to have a slaight delay in the pairings. Don't worry I will not flee!! :D CU Moherajikuyx the Sleepy |
| Magagumo12-02-03, 06:55 PM | Hmm.. yes, I have seen that wording there before, Jindl, we just have been mangling it as a board as a whole, so I assumed the majority was right. Ah well, I will remember to move 35' next time.. which there won't be.. because I don't really like sneaky characters in the end :). *Sigh* I really want to do a druid, but they have been rather well-handled, and there aren't many good Core Prestige classes for them. Now, if we were to allow shifter *begins to drool and collapses twictching*, well, I would certainly not complain ^_~. But anyways, away from silly suggestions, I like the idea of the Error poin counting as an extra fight, and, as Snark mentioned, do enjoy the propect of being called an Elder Mod :D . @ Moh: I will be happy :twitches: to standardize Bruno and Zorander soon, but this is getting to be a crazy week with finals approaching swiftly. Would it be possible to make the update on them next week and still have them fight this week? Noir- "If you can't him em, grab em. And if you can't grab em, you're dead~ A Monk's Lament" This still too long? Edit: Ah, so those are the new pairings? Good, cause I was wondering why Bilo and Harvester weren't fighting (as challenges were accepted), leaving Mara and Bruno as the other 7th fighters. |
| fluiddragon12-02-03, 08:24 PM | The whole issue concerning allies has gotten me thinking. Some character classes get an ally as a class feature. Or like the cleric they can create undead, which is a powerfull ability as Cat demonstraighted. Having an ally essentially doubles the number of actions you can do in a round and as we all know time/actions are the most powerfull ability in the game. This leaves characters like the Monk, Barbarian, Bard etc. with little options. They cannot get a cohort with the leadership feat, and they are limited to purchasing the listed mounts in the phb or MM that actually have prices. As has been discussed before the MM creatures with a cost are rather expensive vs the power level they offer. With low hitpoints they are an expensive liability. Cat stated that he doesn't want to ride a light warhorse at 15th level. And I can see his point. But there are characters who's best bet is a expensive companion/mount that will die in short order. These "lone wolves" will have to face a fighter who has a companion with a power level on scale with the actual opponent, which makes the encounter twice as hard, and they are without recourse. In the lower levels its even because anybody can buy a heavy warhorse and be equal but as I see the levels go up the "lone wolves" will be at significant disadvantages when facing characters who have a powerfull companion. I see a problem but not a solution anybody have ideas? |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-02-03, 08:43 PM | Done. Ok, preparing for the flack. As yet again, another fight goes horribly wrong. Bad initial dice rolls means main strategies went out the window yet again. Yet again, i'm forced to think for combatants to cover things not mentioned. Ack! K, go read and critique, flog me later. I'm going to get something to eat. I'll be back after dinner. Tellish |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-02-03, 09:08 PM | Originally posted by MotherBast I was just reading up on the last couple of fights and I noticed that in the Hanz vs. Noir fight, on the last round Noir had 6 HP, is hit for 3 damage, and dies.... Either his HP is listed wrong on the next to last round, or he still has 3 HP..... He is dead either way as I see it. Actually he had 1. If you read up a bit, you'll see he forgot to take the 5pts away from the previous hit. Tellish |
| LLMadCow12-02-03, 09:10 PM | @ALL Well, I think I have a proposal for the final draft of the Error Point System and how it works... Step 1 - When a player in the arena feels that there has been a SERIOUS ERROR IN THE USE OF THE RULES AND/OR THE SUBMITTED TACTICS FOR THE PC IN QUESTION THAT WOULD OTHERWISE HAVE RESULTED IN A WIN, the player is allowed a single post with the subject Fight Challenge - Error. The post may be edited, aside from clerical issues, once to reply to the Moderators side of the arguement. The post must include the Moderators name, the Contendors in the fight, and any alleged errors in running the fight. The errors listed can be deviations from submitted tactics or gross misuse of the rules listed in the Core 3.5 books. The player will follow up his post with an e-mail to each of the Senior Moderators, and the moderator of the fight, that includes a copy of the post and a link to the post, so that they can follow up with any edits. The moderator of the fight in question is allowed, and encouraged, to submit an e-mail response to the Senior Moderators, and the challenging player, in his own defense and follow up with one e-mail in rebuttal to the players final, edited post. Step 2 - The Senior Moderators - Moherajikuyx, Snarkhunter, Jindl, Magagumo, Caterane, Tellish of Ket and LLMadCow - will all review the e-mail, the rules listed and the fight to determine their view on the fight. All judges will submit a response to Moherajikuyx; acceptable responses are: Point Awarded, Point Denied, Frivolous Challenge or Abstain. In the result of a tie, the point is awarded - it is always better to err to the side of caution. A moderator will never preside over a fight that he actually ran or participated in. Step 3 - If the Error Point was awarded, the character will have a notation on the main page that states how many Error Points they currently have. If they have 3 Error Points, the character will get to advance 1 level as though they had just won a fight; their record will be changed to reflect 1 more win and one less loss, gold is awarded accordingly to their level advancement, and the character gets all of the bonuses of their new level. Step 4 - If an Error Point is awarded, not due to a tie, the moderator of the fight will cry like a baby and will be assigned an Error Point as well. 1 Error Point = an extra fight to run. So, if the Moderator has 2 characters and 1 Error Point, they are required to run at least 2 fights that week (2 Characters - 1 Free Character +1 Error Point = 2). If an Error Point was not awarded, the Moderator will not cry, but simply go on with life smug in the knowledge that he did the best he could and any errors were minimal. Note 1 - Any Fight Challenge that is frivolous in nature will result in a Penalty point. When a player has a Penalty Point, he has a -1 applied to the number of characters allowed to participate the following week. Example - 2 Characters, modding 1 fight, and 1 Penalty Point = -1. So the player either mods 1 extra fight or one character sits the week out. Note 2 - All Challenges must be made no sooner than 24 hours AFTER the fight has been posted. If a challenge is posted any earlier than 24 hours, the challenge will be denied. Note 3 - If a Moderator neglects to run any fight(s) by CTRL EU (GMT -1), (Basically the "end of monday" for Americans), the moderator will be 1 Error Point per fight. Note 4 - After Moherajikuyx tallies up votes and announces the outcome of the challenge, one of the Senior Moderators will post a message on the boards in reply to the initial challenge posted. This will include the outcome of the challenge in question, and the basic violations with proper response to how things should have been handeled. Exact format for such a reply to be worked out later between the Senior Moderators. Edited to reflect minor changes and additions per players requests. Tighter restrictions on the format for Challenge and rebuttal were made to limit the amount of time taken to officiate a challenge and also to ensure well thought out arguements. |
| sshuit12-02-03, 09:13 PM | @ Fluiddragon You've hit the nail on the head. Certain classes become more powerful when allies are factored in. A high level druid with advanced animal companion just isn't comparable to a wizard's familiar. A flying advanced paladin mount is not comparable to a heavy warhorse. As far as a solution is concerned, all I can think of is making the resurrect costs for these sorts of creatures higher or making the initial purchase costs much higher. Banning them outright seems kinda harsh. Or make higher level mounts an effective +ECL. So that for instance a level 9 cleric with a young dragon skeleton might be +ECL 3-4 or something. and so would have to fight a level 12 barbarian :-) The other problem I have is the unavailability of anti-invisibility items at a reasonable cost for non-casters like Barbarians etc. They don't have many reasonably priced options for dealing with improved invisibility ranged attackers ..... Potion of fly+invis = 1050gp vs dust of appearance 1800gp! (only usable within 10'r) Originally posted by fluiddragon The whole issue concerning allies has gotten me thinking. Some character classes get an ally as a class feature. Or like the cleric they can create undead, which is a powerfull ability as Cat demonstraighted. Having an ally essentially doubles the number of actions you can do in a round and as we all know time/actions are the most powerfull ability in the game. This leaves characters like the Monk, Barbarian, Bard etc. with little options. They cannot get a cohort with the leadership feat, and they are limited to purchasing the listed mounts in the phb or MM that actually have prices. As has been discussed before the MM creatures with a cost are rather expensive vs the power level they offer. With low hitpoints they are an expensive liability. Cat stated that he doesn't want to ride a light warhorse at 15th level. And I can see his point. But there are characters who's best bet is a expensive companion/mount that will die in short order. These "lone wolves" will have to face a fighter who has a companion with a power level on scale with the actual opponent, which makes the encounter twice as hard, and they are without recourse. In the lower levels its even because anybody can buy a heavy warhorse and be equal but as I see the levels go up the "lone wolves" will be at significant disadvantages when facing characters who have a powerfull companion. I see a problem but not a solution anybody have ideas? |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-02-03, 09:33 PM | Here's my take on the allies situation. I don't think it's out of balance. I'll give my reasons why. While the cleric/wiz has to spend huge amounts of gold on their skeleton allie, i drink a 50gp hide from undead potion. And as a fighter, use all the money i've saved to buy high-end magic items to counter the main character and the ungodly number of feats i will have over that person as well to the best of my advantage. If i'm a spellcaster and i don't want to waste 15,000+ gold on a really huge skeletone dragon pet, then i'll just memorize command undead and take it for free. See how he likes getting beat on by his own minions. While the other 15k+ in magic items i bought continue to pummel his sorry bacon-behind. "You spent 25k on WHAT? Haha, here meet my 2k summoned Avoral (assuming he couldn't cast it himself in the first place), and the other 23k went towards this really nifty (add your favorite magic item here. If you crafted it yourself, then it's even more powerful). KA-BOOOM!" I don't think pets are unbalanced. I just think those that don't have them need to come up with some strategies to defeat them. @LL: On the issue of the error points, i think you shoud also include that the moderator should be able to speak in his defense even if its' just once. Otherwise i like your idea. Tellish |
| Jindl12-02-03, 10:14 PM | Tellish - Thanks Tellish, for demonstrating to everyone what mistakes that are significant to the outcome of the fight really are. Let's see: You had him trip me twice when I was flying (and therefore not subject to being tripped). You ignored my tactics about breaking my invisibility. My tactics clearly said, if my charge is broken, don't attack and lose my invis. It would have been really easy just to set up another charge. I only miss on a 3 (or 5 if he has SoF) when charging. Then you totally ignore the several rounds of melee prep and my tactics in order to draw my bow and shoot at him (Dude, I got a 12 dex and a 26 str, and you overide my tactics to suggest missle weapons?!?) I was faster and more manueverable, just move and set up another charge!! Also, my tactics say clearly not to power attack after the initial charge. Yet you had me power attack for 3 points on every swing. I missed twice by 2 points... That alone would have likely killed him 4d6+13 damage per hit without power attackl!!! Quit thinking for other people's characters. Just do what the tactics say to do. I'm really disappointed. I know you had little time and were volunteering to help, but this is awful. I challenge this fight (oh wait, that rule isn't in effect yet. Great.) Some other mistakes: 1. When enlarged my arrows do 2d6 base damage (its clearly displayed on my standardized character sheet.) You had it do a 1d8 base. Wrong. 2. Why do I not get to attack during my initial charge? I was within reach when he hit me, and though you incorrectly ruled that I was tripped (again you can't trip a flying opponent...) I can reach him and still make the attack at the end of the charge. So why didn't I? The dice roll would have hit if a charging bonus had been applied (even with the power attack) and I'm sure that the 4d6+19 damage wouldn't matter much, huh? I tell you what, why don't you run the Elder's fight against Iron. I'd love to see you overide my tactics and have the Elder melee with Iron using his quarterstaff while Bubo attempts to grapple him. |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-02-03, 10:44 PM | Originally posted by Jindl Tellish - Thanks Tellish, for demonstrating to everyone what mistakes that are significant to the outcome of the fight really are. Let's see: You had him trip me twice when I was flying (and therefore not subject to being tripped). Flying doesn't make you exempt from being tripped. You ignored my tactics about breaking my invisibility. My tactics clearly said, if my charge is broken, don't attack and lose my invis. It would have been really easy just to set up another charge. I only miss on a 3 (or 5 if he has SoF) when charging. I'm re-reading your tactics. It's not mentioned. Maybe the tactics fairy came and took them away? Then you totally ignore the several rounds of melee prep and my tactics in order to draw my bow and shoot at him (Dude, I got a 12 dex and a 26 str, and you overide my tactics to suggest missle weapons?!?) I was faster and more manueverable, just move and set up another charge!! Ignored several rounds of melee prep? No. You were prepped. I followed your buff order to the tee, never missed a single one. I did set you up for another charge when you had some altitude to use to your advantage so that you didn't have to RUN to put yourself in danger. Also, my tactics say clearly not to power attack after the initial charge. Yet you had me power attack for 3 points on every swing. I missed twice by 2 points... That alone would have likely killed him 4d6+13 damage per hit without power attackl!!! I did power attack on the charges. This seemed like what you were trying to accomplish. You did say you didn't want to power attack after the first hit. But i can't control the dice. You just rolled horribly low and didn't hit. I can't be blamed for that. Quit thinking for other people's characters. Just do what the tactics say to do. I'm really disappointed. I know you had little time and were volunteering to help, but this is awful. I challenge this fight (oh wait, that rule isn't in effect yet. Great.) Quit making excuses to justify why you lost and to pin the blame on me. Just because you rolled god-aweful horrible isn't my fault and no reason to use me as a jumping board for your loss. Quit thinking for characters? Hmm....ok, then include something in your tactics in case your BOMB shot misses. By writing good initial strategy and nothing in case it failed, then i have no choice but to play it out when it fails. :weep: :weep: Tellish |
| Jindl12-02-03, 10:53 PM | Try reading them again. From Jindl's ignored tactics If he survives this attack, then try to melee him (take AoO's on Spike if they try to ride away.) Don't power attack again. Gee, I think it says pretty clearly that you are to melee him and not use power attack again. How much clearer does it have to be? And also, Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket I did power attack on the charges. This seemed like what you were trying to accomplish. It's pretty clear from my general tactics that I wanted to accomplish an invisible, raging, power attacking charge. Yet instead of following the part of my tactics that said (paraphrased) if the charge is broken then don't spoil my invisibility) you attacked from right next to him? My general strategy would indicate that the proper thing to do is back away and charge again. I said very clearly that an invisible charge is what I am after. EDIT: And ignored melee prep means that after I prepped for melee you chose to ignore the benefits of that preparation by having my character engange in missile weapon fire. Lemme add this up: +10 raging, enlarge, shillelagh club attack for 4d6+13 damage ... or ... +2 enlarged missile attack for 2d6+4 damage. Um, which one should I pick? And finally, I will repeat it: You cannot trip a flying character. Please feel free to read the 100 or so posts on this board about tripping characters. They are all very clear on this. Flying means not able to be tripped (because tripping means you are standing on the ground...) EDIT2: And what about the part of my tactics that said "While buffing be 60 feet up and within 100 feet of him."?? You had me only move 5 feet up in the first round (why? I said I wanted to get to 60 feet up...) and then I climbed to 100 feet of altitude and was 240 feet away from him. What part of 60 feet high and within 100 feet of him was unclear? Because of this it took me nearly twice as long to buff, and that meant my enhancements wore off much sooner once the fighting really began. Yeah, almost twice as long because instead of drawing (move action) and drinking (standard action) in one round, you postponed it to two rounds so I could climb an extra 3 rounds? Look, Tellish, I'm trying not to be upset. But I am going to have to retire Tomah because of the lost resources in this fight. I'll just begin him again back at 2nd level. Yes the die rolling was bad, but these rolls wouldn't have mattered if my tactics were correctly applied and the rules for tripping flying creatures clearly understood. The main thing that concerns me is: Whenever a player is upset about a fight you have run, it is often because of incorrectly using their tactics. I make it a point to constantly refer back to the character's tactics when I run a fight. I would imagine you do as well, but I don't understand how you can overlook, or misread, or not comprehend the tactics. Why would Tomah ever want to engage in missile fire, especially if he has fully powered up his 1-shot kill? And mistakes with the flying (noted above in Edit2) make me wonder how closely you read the tactics. And I think that other mistakes or disagreements on fights you have ran stem from the same underlying problem: the misuse of tactics. (I remember a recent issue with on of Cat's characters...) -Jindl |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-02-03, 11:10 PM | You can't say something in your tactics and try to mean something else when things go fowl. And the 5' after the flying. Dude, that's whay you said on your first turn. Drink potion and be 5' off the ground to avoid the entangle. The buffing stage wasn't delayed. You moved to the center of the arena just like you asked at an altitude of 100'. Buffing as you went along. As for the massive melee bonuses ok, i'll have you RUN beside him, lose your dex, have him smack you for free while you can't do anything about it. Would that be better? Or at least get some dmg in there while you set up for your next charge. Which is what your accusing i didn't do, which is what i did do. I don't think so. Tellish |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-02-03, 11:11 PM | Originally posted by Jindl Whenever a player is upset about a fight you have run, it is often because of incorrectly using their tactics. I make it a point to constantly refer back to the character's tactics when I run a fight. I would imagine you do as well, but I don't understand how you can overlook, or misread, or not comprehend the tactics. Why would Tomah ever want to engage in missile fire, especially if he has fully powered up his 1-shot kill? And mistakes with the flying (noted above in Edit2) make me wonder how closely you read the tactics. And I think that other mistakes or disagreements on fights you have ran stem from the same underlying problem: the misuse of tactics. (I remember a recent issue with on of Cat's characters...) -Jindl Your missle fire was part of setting up for your next charge. It was that or do nothing. Free shots are free shots. You're just nit-picking because you through a temper tantrum on the open boards and you know you're wrong and can't admit it. So you feel you need to use your status to belittle me. Feel free man. My world does not revolve around what you think of me. And as far as the Cat thing, like i said, when things go wrong, the moderator has to improvise following the best course based on what the character is currently trying to accomplish. You tried a one-shot kill, it failed. It cost a lot of money, and so instead of saying, "Oh crap...those were some real unlucky rolls." You need an outlet for your anger, so you try to twist what your tactics say into something favorable for you and pin the blame on me. I'm cool with that. Tellish |
| Jindl12-02-03, 11:15 PM | Dude, I can't lose my dex from Running . I have uncanny dodge. And I'm trying to turn this into something constructive. EDIT: And the tactics say "Stay at least 5 feet of the ground so I can't be entangled." This does not mean "stop at 5 feet of altitude" especially when it says climb to 60 feet for buffing. -Jindl |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-02-03, 11:19 PM | There were edited out. Sorry you had to read that before i edited them. Ok. breathe...breathe...breathe.... K. done. You didn't lose your dex. Why would you say you lost your dex? Telllish EDIT. plz quit harping on the buffing. It wasn't delayed. Not even a single round. Everything is legit. You arrived in the center of the arena fully buffed to charge, in the exact order that you mentioned. |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-02-03, 11:28 PM | Originally posted by Jindl 2. Why do I not get to attack during my initial charge? I was within reach when he hit me, and though you incorrectly ruled that I was tripped (again you can't trip a flying opponent...) I can reach him and still make the attack at the end of the charge. So why didn't I? The dice roll would have hit if a charging bonus had been applied (even with the power attack) and I'm sure that the 4d6+19 damage wouldn't matter much, huh? As far as i know, if you are tripped during a charge, it ends the charge, you have no forward momentum left. If a person was able to charge-crawl, then i'd let it. But you can't. And you can be tripped flying. Tellish |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-02-03, 11:31 PM | Originally posted by Jindl Dude, I can't lose my dex from Running . I have uncanny dodge. And I'm trying to turn this into something constructive. EDIT: And the tactics say "Stay at least 5 feet of the ground so I can't be entangled." This does not mean "stop at 5 feet of altitude" especially when it says climb to 60 feet for buffing. -Jindl C'mon Jindl, you know you still lose your dex for running. Uncanny dodge is only when being struck my an invisible attacker or caught flat-footed. you know that. Tellish |
| Jindl12-02-03, 11:36 PM | Look, Tellish: As my final post on this discussion - I want you to know that your intentions in trying to help by moderating a fight that MadCowTemplate had dropped are appreciated. But I still believe my tactics were largely ignored and misrun. In addition, I think there are game mechanics errors, both in "tripping a flying opponent" and in other small ways, like the enlarged arrow doing 1d8+4 instead of 2d6+4, or the missing bonuses for higher ground. Tomah is retired and deleted. Perhaps I'll try Irlina's trick again (the large shillelagh club). Perhaps not. But for now, I have but one active character and no fights this week to moderate. Also, I am interested in hearing what the other moderators/players think about the issues of this fight. Maybe they'll tell me I'm wrong? I dunno. But I feel confident that the problems I pointed out are legit. -Jindl |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-02-03, 11:48 PM | Originally posted by Jindl , like the enlarged arrow doing 1d8+4 instead of 2d6+4, or the missing bonuses for higher ground. -Jindl Finally, a legitimate error. In my haste i guess i had the arrow do 1d8+4 instead of 2d6+4. Both participants hit once. So it all evens out. But all that ranting for one legit error? hahaha There were no missing bonuses for higher ground. They should have all been accounted for. Tellish |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-03-03, 12:22 AM | I went to the rules-monkeys site. I read all their back posts about tripping flyers. No one is certain, and it's all opinions. I reposted my question to the moderator and got this back. Hey, i missed the conversation and read many of the back posts, but > most of it was just bickering back and forth. > > But what was the final conclusion. Are flyers able to be tripped? > Such as a fighter using a fly-potion? > > Tellish No conclusion, just opinions. The rules are unclear. Tom Bollis In my defense, Tellish |
| sshuit12-03-03, 12:29 AM | Hmmm some interesting issued raised by this battle. Here are my 2 coppers. Trip vs Fliers. This is yet another ambiguous area in 3.5 I have always allowed trip attacks with weapons against fliers, I envision it as a spiked chain wrapping around the wing of a giant bat and pulling it painfully to the ground. In the same vein, I can imagine a flying wizard being caught by the robes with a guisarme and pulled off course and into the ground. Can anyone provide a reference which suggest this is not allowed? Enlarged arrows : 2d6 (per DMG table 2-2) and enlarge spell I think that the fight was fairly run (not perfectly like most fights here in the arena) although since Jindl would have won it 9 times out of 10, he is understandably making an issue of what errors there were. Consider it the effect of the thieves guild rigging a fight to ensure profitability :D Originally posted by Jindl Look, Tellish: As my final post on this discussion - I want you to know that your intentions in trying to help by moderating a fight that MadCowTemplate had dropped are appreciated. But I still believe my tactics were largely ignored and misrun. In addition, I think there are game mechanics errors, both in "tripping a flying opponent" and in other small ways, like the enlarged arrow doing 1d8+4 instead of 2d6+4, or the missing bonuses for higher ground. Tomah is retired and deleted. Perhaps I'll try Irlina's trick again (the large shillelagh club). Perhaps not. But for now, I have but one active character and no fights this week to moderate. Also, I am interested in hearing what the other moderators/players think about the issues of this fight. Maybe they'll tell me I'm wrong? I dunno. But I feel confident that the problems I pointed out are legit. -Jindl |
| fluiddragon12-03-03, 12:36 AM | I'm not going to comment on the fight. But on the issue of flight and trippers. Tripping is either a unarmed attack or with a weapon with some ability. In being tripped you lose your balance and fall. And are considered prone. I looked in the rules and it doesn't say that you can or cannot trip a flier. At least not that I saw. I find it pretty hard to swallow that if you are flying especially with magic, that you can be tripped. As if you 'lay down' you can still fly and move at the same speed. In fact if you are laying and hovering 5' above the ground you are at eye level with most characters and wouldn't shouldn't suffer prone penalties (You also wouldn't be any harder to hit with ranged weapons either). I also imagine when charging or attacking it will be kida like super man and 1/2 the time you are 'prone'; and the other 1/2 upright. If your charging especially I see it as in a 'prone' type of postion. Personaly in any fight I run I will not allow flyiers to be tripped. In the case of the fight Tellish ran though I disagree with his choice, in the absense of the rules he made a judgment call. I think this should have a final ruling here and posted in the rules or the faq so it doesn't come up again. A side issue is moving silently while flying. I don't know if the rules support it, but is there a bonus to MS when you are flying, as your feet are not pounding the ground. You still have equipment that can jingle but Pin Pointing and invisible flying oponent with a listen check should be pretty darn difficult, much harder than the same check vs a gound pounder. -fd edit: When you are prone there are movement penalties and you can crawl at a reduced rate or get up and suffer AoO for both. If you are flying (fly spell) you could even skim along the ground at an altitude of 1 inch with no penalties laying on your back. Since there are no penalties and you have good manuverability I really don't think you could trip a flier. It is pretty far fetched. Tripping is about the enemy losing balance. When you are flying balance has nothing to do with it, its not there to lose in the first place. So even if you were re-oriented against your will, it wouldn't matter as you control your altitude with a thought. Your charge could still be stopped but I don't think tripped. This issue really should be settled. Maybe put it up to a vote. |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-03-03, 12:47 AM | Originally posted by sshuit Hmmm some interesting issued raised by this battle. Here are my 2 coppers. Trip vs Fliers. This is yet another ambiguous area in 3.5 I have always allowed trip attacks with weapons against fliers, I envision it as a spiked chain wrapping around the wing of a giant bat and pulling it painfully to the ground. In the same vein, I can imagine a flying wizard being caught by the robes with a guisarme and pulled off course and into the ground. Can anyone provide a reference which suggest this is not allowed? Enlarged arrows : 2d6 (per DMG table 2-2) and enlarge spell I think that the fight was fairly run (not perfectly like most fights here in the arena) although since Jindl would have won it 9 times out of 10, he is understandably making an issue of what errors there were. Consider it the effect of the thieves guild rigging a fight to ensure profitability :D That's the thing SS. The one error i made with the arrow, wasn't enough to change the outcome of the battle. In the campaign i play, Living Greyhawk, all rules are rpga sanctioned and everything is legit and verfied. You can trip a flier. It's not just a question of being prone, it's also balance. The flier may or may not be perpendicular, he's just off balance so that the attacker gains the same bonuses. @fluid: The rules for ms while flying are as applied. Wether you believe they are different or not doesn't change it. @SShuit: You're right. I could run that fight 9 more times and Tomah would win all 9 of them. But on that one fight, the one where he rolled 2's and 3's beyond my control, he'd lose. And that's what happened. Now he wants to twist words into his tactics saying i didn't follow them because he lost, is pure bull. Whatever. Other than the arrows (which evened out) it was error free. Tellish |
| fluiddragon12-03-03, 12:56 AM | @ Tellish I'm not questioning what the rpga does. But is there something in the SRD, PHB, or DMG that supports your stance? I'd just like to know. In the absense of a printed core (not rpga) rule then in fights I run, unless the board rules otherwise, I wouldn't allow tripping a flier. I think you made a judgment call and I can support that, even if I dissagree. -fd |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-03-03, 12:58 AM | Originally posted by fluiddragon @ Tellish I'm not questioning what the rpga does. But is there something in the SRD, PHB, or DMG that supports your stance? I'd just like to know. In the absense of a printed core (not rpga) rule then in fights I run, unless the board rules otherwise, I wouldn't allow tripping a flier. I think you made a judgment call and I can support that, even if I dissagree. -fd Roger that. Absolutely understandable. Tellish EDIT** I've posted my question on the andy collins rules site for Andy himself to answer. But that might take awhile. |
| LLMadCow12-03-03, 02:16 AM | Some of this arguement is borderline name calling. I think a lot of the arguement would have been best through e-mail and feel that aside from a few small parts, not very beneficial to the board as a whole. That being said, I have made a few changes to my proposal post of the Error Point system and I am pretty sure that I have covered all of the bases. A few notes... I went with 7 Senior Moderators, as opposed to 5, since as we have seen of the most recent fight it involved 2 of the listed Senior Moderators, and any given fight could have all 3 participants be senior Moderators. More ruling Moderators = A wider base for an accurate decision. I also made a change to reflect that an Error Point awarded as the result of a judge tie, would NOT result in the Moderator receiving an Error Point. I feel that when we err towards caution, it should be to the benefit of the player and the moderator. Lastly, I made a small change to reflect that we do wish to have the moderator of any fight challenged defend themselves. Noting all of this, I think this would be a perfect chance to go with a dry run of the Senior Mods judge panel. Why not let Jindl post his grievence, let Tellish_of_Ket e-mail he defense and let the remaining 5 Sr. Mods vote on the Error Point. |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-03-03, 02:36 AM | @LL: Agreed. I don't mind at all. I will e-mail my rebutal to all involved, since i have all their e-mail addresses and I will CC: all panel members in one shot. Yes, LL, it's too bad this had to be displayed out in the public. Not good for the morale of the board that's for sure. I know i sounded upset with Fluid, i wasn't, but it really looked bad and i immediately posted an apolagy for my rude behaviour and outburst. It was completely without cause and Fluid did not deserve it. Off to the e-mail it is then. Tellish |
| Irlina12-03-03, 05:27 AM | Come on, noone takes it too serious when someone is p***** off after losing a fight. ;) But of course noone likes his tactics misunderstood and losing a fight because of that. But since both didn't insult each other but kept to the facts from their sight it was no bad example! But keep in mind: it's a game after all! The idea with the boards of senior mods is a good one, however I would actually suggest 2 votes in case the fight is challenged. First vote is whether to award an error point to the challenging combatant, 2nd vote is whether to blame the mod for it. Why? Because there are rules, which could change the outcome of the fight drastically, but are quite hidden in the books. So you could say "Yes the fight would have changed but we don't see a big mistake from the mod. So error point for combatant, no error point for mod." |
| LLMadCow12-03-03, 08:44 AM | 1st - Let me say that the current challenge situation is intended as a dry run only - a chance for the Serior Moderators to test this out amongst themselves and see how we feel about it. 2nd - As this is just a test, there is no need for Jindl to post his message on the boards, but simply e-mail the 5 remaining Senior Moderators. 3rd - Normally I would say the defending Moderator should send his response after the offended player posts his grievance. 4th - I think I need to make one final change that address that all parties involved, to include the moderator and the challenging player should receive copies of the primary e-mails, this way the Moderator and the Challenging Player both know what the other is saying. All this being said, I have reviewed Tellish_of_Ket's e-mail and I will have a reply by tomorrow morning. My books are in one house and I am in another. Things are looking good so far. @ALL Please be sure to drop back a page or two and review my Error Point Proposal here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1982110#post1982110)... I think this will free up some otherwise wasted space on the boards. Outcome of any review could be posted by one of the Senior Moderators and listed with key rules issues for the future reference of all players and Moderators. |
| Magagumo12-03-03, 09:13 AM | I recieved the email, but have not yet read the fight. Once I have cleared my obligations (still writing an essay), I will examine the fight in totality. One other note: Please tell me Bruno and Zorander are fighting, Moh. :D From first glance, I should state that flyers can be tripped, as the book does not say they can't. I don't care about the physics or orientation of a fighter (though, it should be recognized that a biped who is now fighting horizontally is generally at a disadvantage, why a natural flier is likely to be knocked off-balance, more than anything.), we should follow the exact interpretation of the book, no matter what form of movement the trippee is using. If you would like a possible indication that tripping can occur off the ground, examine the dwarf's racial stability bonus, it mentions that their +4 advantage aginst being tripped only works while on the ground On a similar note, do not try to rationalize the Moving Silently while flying. If there were meant to be bonuses included for not touching the ground (and trust me, you would still make a lot of noise with the shifting of full-plate), they would be mentioned. Honestly, when the basic rules get changed, someone gets unbalanced (overpowered/underpowered). On the same note, I would like to applaud Tellish's analysis of mount's/skeleton's/companions, they still run on our actions, and our bony friends can't fly or think, so just outsmart/evade them. Of course, Harvester could grab a flying zombie mount, but he'll never get anywhere on that sluggish beast (only a 150' clumsy charge :-P ).. or would he? ^_~ Anyways, back to work I go, I will finish my examination of the fight in a couple of hours. |
| Caterane12-03-03, 09:36 AM | *comes home* Mo, please remember to not give me any fights because Ebelin sits out. Errr, do I get any bonus credits for sitting out voluntarily? Jindl could give me a scroll, at least :P And the unscathed winner is Iron. I read through the whole issue of Tellish but I have to leave again so I comment it later on. *goes out again* |
| Jindl12-03-03, 10:09 AM | Originally posted by Magagumo If you would like a possible indication that tripping can occur off the ground, examine the dwarf's racial stability bonus, it mentions that their +4 advantage aginst being tripped only works while on the ground The reason a dwarf's stability refers to being "on the ground" is to differentiate between tripping a character off of his mount and tripping one who is standing on his own legs. -Jindl |
| barrel_master12-03-03, 10:34 AM | Originally posted by fluiddragon Don't rule him out yet. There is an uneven number of oppopnents in level 6 so I may not fight or Tellish my not fight. But Gage is much cooler than Octavian! That match might still take place, as Tellish and I both have 3 char so more than likely I will fight octavian. I think Brackin deserves to fight Rito no rolling for that. Let the casters fight each other and let the monks bash each other. Ha ha?!? Excuse me, I'm almost offended by that. :) |
| fluiddragon12-03-03, 10:58 AM | Originally posted by barrel_master Ha ha?!? Excuse me, I'm almost offended by that. :) Your supposed to, we are fighting for a hot chick! The best reason to fight. Or maybe she likes 3somes :D |
| fluiddragon12-03-03, 11:04 AM | Originally posted by Jindl The reason a dwarf's stability refers to being "on the ground" is to differentiate between tripping a character off of his mount and tripping one who is standing on his own legs. -Jindl I agree. |
| barrel_master12-03-03, 11:19 AM | Originally posted by fluiddragon Your supposed to, we are fighting for a hot chick! The best reason to fight. Or maybe she likes 3somes :D Ha ha... I don't know man, Gage may like threesomes with 2 guys but Octavian certinly does not! :) Also, I've updated my chars... all of them are running. However, if there is an uneven number of chars at one of my chars' levels then I volenteer to be taken out. |
| barrel_master12-03-03, 12:51 PM | In regards the to error point perposal... why don't we award points to mods who run 'clean fights' or rather fights that have absolutely no errors? We don't even need some sort of complex judging system, we could just have both the participents in the fight vouch for the running of the fight. All we would need then is one person to keep track of things. |
| Caterane12-03-03, 02:27 PM | I don`t have much time these days so I don`t exactly doublecheck all books but base my answers on more empiric matters. BTW: is this our first error point judgement? 1. Tripping & Flying There isn't anything to cover this and say you can't. As an LG player using rpga sanctioned rules governed by Skip Williams (yeah, we know he's on crack sometimes) we can trip flyers. Until it comes out in an official source such as the FAQ, or Errata, it will continue to be used. I once did this in the Alathar vs Moon fight where both were flying. It is nowhere written that trip doesn`t function in certain circumstances like flying, under water, in space :) On top of that we shouldn`t guess on what it is based like "throw someone offbalance". A flying opponoment that has been tripped is still in an unfortunate horizontal position that gives the tripper a huge advantage. 2. Making something out that isn't ____________________ If he somehow moves away during my charge, then don't attack (ie. pull up from the charge, so my invisibility isn't spoiled.) ____________________ Jindl is trying to use this line to say, that after the first charge failed and he was still invisible, that i should have moved away from Spike and attempted another charge. I explained in my notes in the fight, that you can't stop in the middle of an action, and if Spike had readied to move away from Jindl in the middle of his charge, Jindl would have been forced to charge and his invisibility revealed. Unfortunately Jindl disagrees with me on this point. You cannot stop a charge once initiated but if you don`t roll an attack at the end of the charge, you don`t become visible. I think that was handled correctly. Jindl expected the attack to hit and didn`t cover what happens when it misses so I would have continued with melee too. 3. ___________________ 1. Fly (once I am flying, stay at least 5 feet off the ground, so he cannot cast entangle on me.) ___________________ Jindl is nit-picking about small points that had no bearing on the fight whatsoever, thus i find myself addressing items that have no bearing on the outcome. From this line, i read that when he drinks the potion to fly 5' off the ground in the first round to avoid entangling. I did, and it worked. So what's the deal? Was there an entangle in it? Can`t remember having seen one. While doing the buffing, try to be 60 feet up and within 100 feet of him. Try to be close to the center of the arena. Try to be in a position to charge (invisibly) when buffing is complete. _______________________ I did exactly this, yet Jindl claims i failed to follow his buffing strategy. Again, absolutely no bearing on the fight if i did something wrong. Jindl was in the center of the arena, at an altitude of 100' and was in line to make his charge. Again, what's the deal? Don`t know which buffs are missing but that doesn`t affect the fight. The last two trips where clear enough for me. If it`s a damage buff it might have changed the outcome though (see below) __________________________ When buffing is complete (all 5 potions), then rage+charge+power attack (3 points). Charge to right next to him (don't stop at my 10 foot reach, close to 5 feet). Remember I can use all of my altitude to increase my charging distance. My attack bonus should be: +10 +2 invis +1 higher ground +2 charging -3 power attack = +12!! And he loses his dex bonus (and any dodge bonuses from total defense) because I am invis. My damage is 4d6+19 (thanks to power attack)!! ____________________________ When charging you must stop at the first available square. You cannot keep going until you base the creature if you have reach. When Spike tripped Jindl, Jindl was at the edge of the reach, and Spike was able to flee without provoking. Again, what's the deal? I don`t think you have to stop at the first square. That is nowhere written. Straight line and straight towards the opponoment, and if you fulfill these requirements you can charge on and on until you are within 5 feet. ________________________ If he survives this attack, then try to melee him (take AoO's on Spike if they try to ride away.) Don't power attack again. _________________________ When Jindl failed his charge, i had him attack again, and i did power-attack as he was still invisible, flying, and from his first saying it seemed clear to me that's what the intent was. To get one hit with the power attack and then stop using power attack. Not "Well, if i don't hit him in the charge, stop using power attack." Here I have to disagree completely. It was clearly written "If he survives the attack, don`t use Power Attack again." And this attack would`ve hit him and perhaps forced Spike to initiate his emergency tactics. Might have had an impact on the outcome. After this, nothing is covered in Jindl's tactics on how to proceed. He is livid that i didn't walk to Spike and hit him in melee at that point. What do i do? Run Tomah there? That would be absurd. Whlie climbing for alititude, i drew out his bow to get some free shots. Spike was already 160' away when they started. To RUN Tomah there would have been suicide. SO i had to ad-lib. There was no choice. With Jindl's enlarge gone, his advantage of reach was gone. He maneuvered into a position where he could charge Spike. Tomah's earlier tactics gave preference for the power attack on the charge, and i power attacked him on this charge as well. Spike has 20' compared to Tomas 60' fly, hasn`t he? So Tomar would`ve gotten him really quick. In closing, it seems like Jindl is using me as an outlet for his frustration at the horrible luck and rolls in the fight. I did make an error in assigning the dmg for the enlarged bow shot. He should have done 2d6+4 as opposed to 1d8+4. That's all i can see. Even a maximum dmg roll doesn't change the outcome. If you add the damage from the mishandled power attack (and perhaps the missing buff) it might have sufficed. So? Am I supposed to send my vote to anyone now? |
| Moherajikuyx12-03-03, 02:43 PM | Mag - OK Spike & Tomah This thing makes think. Are we sure we want this kind of things? Because not matter what, the loser of the "fight challenge", be it the moderator or the offended player, will complain more: this could become a spiral of complaining. Please people think a lot before accepting this practice; I'll post a vote about it. Anyways LL, the repeated events of type offense - repenting - sorry pal (I did it too :embarrass) makes me add this little rule: if the offended posts the request before 24hours passed from the fight, the request is automatically void. I'll give more explanation tomorrow about this if needed (sorry I'm a bit late). Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket I've posted my question on the andy collins rules site for Andy himself to answer. But that might take awhile. I approve the move. The arena is made for this. Anyways... 12 hours to the pairings! :) (Hope it's the last time we get late) |
| Moherajikuyx12-03-03, 02:51 PM | IMC, if a flying mage gets tripped, he is, but then being with good manouvering he's able to withdraw flying away without need of standing up. It makes sense. I don't think there's any rule preventing that a flyer doesn't need to walk. There's also no rule that prevents snakes to be tripped... Common sense shall apply. |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-03-03, 03:09 PM | Originally posted by Caterane Spike has 20' compared to Tomas 60' fly, hasn`t he? So Tomar would`ve gotten him really quick. Spike had a mounted mvoe of 40' and Tomah 60'. Spike was already 160+ away. I think it was 180'. Originally posted by Caterane I don`t think you have to stop at the first square. That is nowhere written. Straight line and straight towards the opponoment, and if you fulfill these requirements you can charge on and on until you are within 5 feet. p.154 phb. You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. ie. a person with reach, the closest space to attack, means 10' away. @ MO: I would never complain about the decision of the panel. If i'm wrong, then i'm wrong. I have no qualms admitting it either. Being of flesh and blood that i am, i accept my flaw as being part of the human race, and thus prone to errors. :D I will abide by any decision made, or sanctions regarding them. Tellish |
| mormagli12-03-03, 03:30 PM | hey, I've been reading some of this arena's fights for a while, and would like to join. I'm working on a charachter now, but have been tripped up by some of the wording of the instructions: Hps: Max HD first level, half +1/2 then (brb 7, fgt 6, clr 5, rog 4, wiz 3). Mounts and so on have default hps. I'm not having trouble understanding "max HD at first level," but I don't get the "half +1/2" please excuse me if this is a stupid question. AAnyway, I have a decent amount of experiance as a GM, so I might offer myself up as a mod once I get settled in. EDIT: oh... I get it now... half+1... i feel silly. |
| Magagumo12-03-03, 04:15 PM | *Sighs* First Essay Done. Here's my 2 silver (far better than Snark's copper ^_~) Note: I am entirely unproficient when it comes to quoting, so feel free to stare at Cat's post to see the issues I am adressing ^_^;; 1. As Tripping does not necessarily have to cause one's feet to leave the ground, but is basically knocking you prone/off-balance, I do believe that it is possible to trip someone anywhere (Limbo, Elemental Plane of Air, Underwater, Land, etc.). This being said, I think ToK handled the trip's alright, and agree with moh that one could withdraw without standing up, providing one was flying/swimming. Generally, combatants will wish to right themselves eventually, to avoid the penalty to their attacks. 2. As there was no point where Tomah lost his invisiblity due to a held action to "move", I think this is not a major point. ToK handled the pinpoint alright (he could have also just seen him, as you cannot Hide or Move Silently during a rage, so you get the +20 from invisibility -20 from the charge -4 size, making it an auto-pinpoint.) As a readied action occurs before the action you prepare for (pinpointing my charging opponent), Spike would have moved back, and Tomah would have reached the end of his movement. However, a charge does not force you to strike, so Tomah could have decided not to swing at the end of the charge, and remained invisible. 3. Not sure about the reference to entangle either, but given that the failure on the charge was not covered, having Tomah stay on ground-level and melee would probably have been/was the best choice. 4. I see all the potions listed in Tomah's strategy as being used, and ToK is correct on the use of charge, you must move in a straight, unobstructed line to the closest space from whcih you can attack the opponent. (PHB pg. 154) Thusly, Tomah and Spike would have each be swinging at one another, but Spike tripped the orc through his held action. It should be noted, that Tomah could still have attacked, since the attack action and the movement are counted separately, so he could have made a swing while being prone. Considering his desire to make it a single deathblow, this would have probably been unwise. 6. It's questionable on Jindl's exact desires with the power attack, as I know that a good bit of that bonus would have come from charging . Nevertheless, I do have to say that direct interpetation would have led to no PA, meaning that the hit might not have destroyed Spike entirely. I can honestly assign no blame on this one, as it's not perfectly clear, an honest misunderstanding really. Also, an invisible strike should have been effective, but the die seemed particularly angry on this fight as well. In the future, it is best to follow their tactics to the letter, so that they only have themselves (rather than you) to blame. 7. I think Cat covered the movement issue here, and ToK is correct on uncanny dodge vs. run. In fact, this is only one of three ways in which I've seen to deny Dex mod to a person with Uncanny dodge: 1. They ran, losing their dex mod, 2. They are stunned (lost dex mod), 3. They are grappled (lose Dex mod). In any other circumstance which warrants a sneak attack, it involves invisibility or being flat-footed. Nevertheless, I do believe the fact that Tomah had short-lived buffs, coupled with a massive strength, made it a better idea to let the orc crash into the mounted dwarf. After all, the trip was a close match, as I calculate Tomah as having a +12 to his roll (+8 strength, +4 size), so he probably could have smashed Spike good. In conclusion, I find that errors were made in the very end of the fight, concerning Tomah's actions. However, considering the Moderator's lack of tactics for such an eventuality, I find both, and thus none, of the parties (Mod or player) responsible for the mistakes found in this fight. I do not believe this warrants an Error Point (especially since this is the system's trial run), and approve of the opportunity this has given the board to objectively examine issues of tripping rules, charging rules, and problems with tactics. Jindl, I would like to express my regret at your loss, but would caution you on the ease of pinpointing an invisible rager. It is up to you if Tomah is rebuilt, but I would declare this just one of those fights. ToK, I want to say that you were confronted with a dificult situation, one which this board can not address easily. It is always hard to decide what would be best for the player, as asking them any questions could unbalance the nature of our fights. Thusly, I would caution players to prepare for eventualities, so that our Mods are not placed in this difficult situations. In the end, you messed up a bit, but that can happen. I approve of the system, and am sure I will approve of Mh's idea on the 24-hr delay (I'm betting it has to do with letting heads cool. I was a bit piqued when I saw Noir lost, but took the time to wait before posting. Did some editing too. ^_~) Ok, that's basically it from me, I'm gonna sit tight to see who Zorander and Bruno are fighting, and make sure I'm ready to run two fights these week. |
| Jindl12-03-03, 05:12 PM | Since the other mod's are now looking at this fight, and enough time has passed for everyone to (hopefully) cool down, I want to summarize the mistakes I feel occurred in this fight, into one post. Here goes: Tellish overruled Spike's tactics to help him. If Spike can't see me, his tactics instructed him draw his bow and begin sniping when I became visible, after buffing with guidances and reaching the edge of the arena. Nowhere does it say ready an action to trip him with guisarme. It says to pull out the bow and ready to shoot him when he becomes visible. So, no trip, charge hits (the +2 from charging would make my first attack roll hit) and a very different outcome. This is a similar change in tactics to what Tellish did when he had Tomah draw a bow and single move/fire each round, when the tactics specifically called for melee only (see below). Tellish ignored my movement routine when buffing, which resulted in it taking longer to buff and my buffs running out faster. Had Tellish followed my tactics on gaining altitude to 60 feet, then Tomah would have: Rnd 1- Drank fly potion, climbed 30 feet. Rnd 2- Drank invis potion, climbed 30 feet. Rnd 3- Draw shield of faith, move 60 feet towards Spike. Rnd 4- Drink shield of faith, move 60 feet towards Spike. Rnd 5- Draw and Drink enlarge person. (Note: Spike is within 100 feet, so no movement) Rnd 6- Draw and apply shillelagh. (Note: Spike is within 100 feet, so no movement) Rnd 7- Rage+Charge This gets it done 1 round earlier, which keeps my buffs running one round longer and gives Spike one round less to prepare. On the subject of Spike escaping, a couple of points. First, Spike takes serious penalties to attack and cast when his horse moves more than 40 feet. Second, its a circular arena with a 150 ft radius. Tomah can (thanks to fly) charge anything within 120 feet. Therefore, he would need to move within 30 feet of the center to get into charging range. That means: Rnd x-1 - Spike steps back 5 feet and commands Tomah*. Rnd x - Spike flees another 80 feet (double move** and can't cast command.) Tomah double moves towards center of arena. Rnd x+1 - Spike continues to double move around the circumference, making him within 150 feet of Tomah. Tomah climbs 60 feet in altitude. Rnd x+2 - No matter where Spike moves, Tomah can now either charge him, or double move to be directly above him (10 feet away). If he couldn't charge due to an obstacle then once he is directly above him, he can instead single move next turn and attack from above. * - This should have drawn an AoO or required defensive casting concentration check, because when Tomah "stood" and attacked, he should have taken a 5' step towards Spike (as my tactics indicate that I wanted to close within 5 feet of him). ** - Horses have to run in a straight line, which he cannot due to obstacles and the arena edge. Actually, its irrelevent as Tomah can reach him regardless of his speed, once Tomah moves towards the center of the arena. That means he can catch Spike 2 rounds after Spike commands him, without running. This shorter time of course, keeps my buff's from running out, but more important is what Tellish decided to do instead of chasing him. Instead of attempting to melee, as I clearly wanted to do, Tellish decides that my character would rather shoot his bow. He's picking a +2 ranged attack (due to range penalty) with 2d6+4 damage, instead of a +10 melee attack with 4d6+13 damage. This choice is another reason that Tomah loses the fight. And when Tellish does have Tomah make melee attacks, he has him continue to power attack even though the tactics are clear on no more power attacks after the first attack. They don't say "after the first hit." They say "after the first attack." If you wonder why I make a big deal about how long the buffs last (see above) the answer is, as long as enlarge person is running, I can fly 10 feet above the horse attacking Spike, and it never gets to attack me. But since Tellish squandered several rounds, the enlarge effect wore off too early, which meant Tomah had to attack from within the horse's reach, and the horse even hit him twice for damage. While I can agree that the tripping rules are unclear, I again state that we have a problem with the moderator overruling tactics and thinking for the characters. This shifted the fight in Spikes favor. Granted, Tomah had some crappy rolls on the dice. But one hit at 4d6+13 (or +19) could win the fight. Two hits definately wins. You guys can continue with the vote if you like, I really don't care anymore. I know I believe that Tellish ignored tactics and thought for the gladiators, and this resulted in Tomah's defeat. But, Tomah has been erased and will be replaced, so there's little point in continuing this reveiw. -Jindl |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-03-03, 06:12 PM | Originally posted by Jindl On the subject of Spike escaping, a couple of points. First, Spike takes serious penalties to attack and cast when his horse moves more than 40 feet. Second, its a circular arena with a 150 ft radius. Tomah can (thanks to fly) charge anything within 120 feet. Therefore, he would need to move within 30 feet of the center to get into charging range. That means: Rnd x-1 - Spike steps back 5 feet and commands Tomah*. Rnd x - Spike flees another 80 feet (double move* and can't cast command.) Tomah double moves towards center of arena. Rnd x+1 - Spike continues to double move around the circumference, making him within 150 feet of Tomah. Tomah climbs 60 feet in altitude. Rnd x+2 - No matter where Spike moves, Tomah can now either charge him, or double move to be directly above him (10 feet away). If he couldn't charge due to an obstacle then once he is directly above him, he can instead single move next turn and attack from above. I'm not a chess player. I can't play chess with the galdiators. Spike didn't flee 80', he fled 160'. Look at the positions. As i said, the second command was an error, and i considered it a failed spell and the slot used. To avoid just running toward him, you gained altitude, and as you were doing that, he was moving further away. It took the time required to set up another charge. * - This should have drawn an AoO or required defensive casting concentration check, because when Tomah "stood" and attacked, he should have taken a 5' step towards Spike (as my tactics indicate that I wanted to close within 5 feet of him). I guess that's another part of the tactic puzzle that is missing. You wanted to base Spike on the charge, which you couldn't do. I don't recall reading anything about moving into him afterwards. You know why? Because there is no afterwards. You wrote a one shot kill tactic. There's nothing but guess work after that. ** - Horses have to run in a straight line, which he cannot due to obstacles and the arena edge. Actually, its irrelevent as Tomah can reach him regardless of his speed, once Tomah moves towards the center of the arena. Now your making stuff up again. You can run past obstacles. It's called squeezing, and you pay double the movement cost. You cannot however run through difficult terrain. There was no difficult terrain. And if you look on the arena map where Spike ended his bottom left corner of the mount, you'll noted i paid x2 mvoe for passing close to each pillar or rock. Instead of attempting to melee, as I clearly wanted to do, Tellish decides that my character would rather shoot his bow. He's picking a +2 ranged attack (due to range penalty) with 2d6+4 damage, instead of a +10 melee attack with 4d6+13 damage. This choice is another reason that Tomah loses the fight. Did you clearly state that? I only see one passage that says if he survives this shot, try to melee him. That's what i did and cautiously so, even though i guess by your words i could have had you double move as close to him as possible so he could charge you? Would you have preferred that? I had to get you into melee the safest way i could. Tellish |
| Draloth12-03-03, 07:05 PM | A little question-do you need to be "aware" of an invisible creature/person to ready an action against them? |
| sshuit12-03-03, 09:52 PM | I would say no. But you have to somehow listen/spot successfully in order to trigger the readied action. So for example. My character is aiming a crossbow at an open doorway and readies an action " I will fire the crossbow at any foes that come through the door" If an invisible character moves through the door I will not fire unless I spot / listen and can tell that someone has come through the door. Their being invisible does not negate my ability to ready actions but if I don't know they are there my readied action will never take place. There is a certain amount of metagaming in the arena. We "know" that if the character isn't where they should be they are most likely hiding or invisible. Especially if their character sheet lists a Potion of invisibility. sshuit Originally posted by Draloth A little question-do you need to be "aware" of an invisible creature/person to ready an action against them? |
| Market_Share12-03-03, 10:09 PM | Well, i was gonna add some comic-relief to this. But that might just make Tomah angrier. Would it help if i said no-one actually died in real life, but ya'll acting like it? The win/loss means nothing to me as i've said before. I've said this to moderators before, and i'll say it again. If ya mess me tactics up, i ain't gonna crap all over ya. Life goes on. I read the fight, and i read Jindl's first two line comment. I was about to post a reply, when i re-read it a few second later and it was edited beyond words to descbribe and included a huge personal attack. I come back a few days later and oh-boy. This guy's on trail now? LOL Not to be rude to ya'll, i know some ppl put a lot of hard work in to this, but don't ya think ya'z over-reacting just a tad? LOL Before i signed up i read a ton of fights. They are for the most part all riddled with errors. Why now suddenly because this guy may/may not have made a few errors is he a scapegoat for someone else's tantrum? Ah, well. @MO: I edited my spell list to reflect the open slots. I'm ready to fight again. Although, not quite as enthusiastic about doing my usual pre-fight commentating routine to help break the silence. SPIKE |
| Caterane12-04-03, 08:04 AM | @Mo: No pairings? It`s already thursday!? Don`t tell me we skip this week :eek: @Jindl: I think your deleting Tomar was too strong in action but that new char reminds me of someone ;) Perhaps I should also make a new character: "Hi-Man" Another thing: don`t you want to make the Elder good in alignment so we can form the "the triad of upright elves" consisting of Skymoon, Ebelin and the Elder opposed to the "guild of evil little people" (Bruno, Bilo, Irlina). Adds to the story. @Snark: Why did you challenge the Harvester? |
| Irlina12-04-03, 08:13 AM | @Jindl It's a pity you scraped Tomah. I liked this char and esp. the idea "Iceman with big club!". @Cat Hey! HE-MAN! No High-Man or Hi-man or whatever. And my chars live so short they have no time for guilds! When I lose again I revive an old char. Have some new ideas! |
| Moherajikuyx12-04-03, 08:22 AM | Cat - Hello-Man! :D As announced, I'm doing the pairings now. You got a challenge, are you not accepting it? |
| Caterane12-04-03, 08:48 AM | @Mo: Bilo challenged me and I accepted. Anyone else? Hey, and put Ebelin back on the roster!!! He doesn`t fight this week, ok, but that doesn`t mean he should be posted next to piwi`s rusted characters. @Irlina: I didn`t mean one of your characters when I was talking about the guild of evil little people, but YOU! :angel: Supplemental: And Mo, don`t even think of writing "standard sheet" behind Ebelin when you put him back http://www.sebastian-sutor.de/smilies/2ar15smilie.gif |
| Moherajikuyx12-04-03, 09:14 AM | I'll add Clìodhna d'Elrich vs Nevrlokagyft if LL wants to fight with the default spells only. Have a merry good fight! :) |
| Caterane12-04-03, 09:21 AM | @Mo: Hey Mo, my request was that I don`t get a fight this week. I said it twice already. On top of that I have only 1 character running. I have a very busy week, yeah we all have, but from on monday I have enough free time for a whole month at least. This is the first request I ever made and I don`t make them when there`s no reason to do so. @Jindl: Sorry. But the Elder will fight again and then I promise you to moderate your fight. |
| Moherajikuyx12-04-03, 10:25 AM | Sorry Cat! I was sure you offered yourself, but reading the thread it appears that it was Jindl to offer... yourself! :D I gave it to LLMadCow. Speaking of which, LL accepted to have Cliodna play with the default spells, so I set on the fight with Nevr, and had to change a bit the moderators, double check your moderators now. See you guys! |
| Magagumo12-04-03, 11:25 AM | Hmm.. "evil little peoples guild" eh? Hey Snark, perhaps we should demand membership fees to join the group ;) *Shrug* Honestly though, joining either group is dangerous: You either have to deal with the haughty good elves, or risk being manipulated as a pawn in Bilo and Bruno's twisted little schemes :D Now, if I only could ensure that Bruno and Bilo would never fight, that would be glorious :-P Now let's check the postings... OK, I see i have one fight between Gage and Kelek.. I think I can handle the two of them (Whoo boy, twin mage battles *roll :rolleyes: ) ... I'm fighting Snark again!!!! Good lord, Moh, you're a horrible monster! ^_~ Ah well, perhaps one day our characters won't be tussling. Now then, as a message to barrel_master, if Zorander manages to crit first turn again, I suggest you start collecting bottled water and canned ham, for Armageddon will surely be upon us :-P Good luck to everyone running fights, I should have tactics out by tomorrow evening (one more philosophy essay to go ^_^;;) |
| SnarkHunter12-04-03, 12:31 PM | 1 essay down, 1 presentation to go! College is awesome! I don't need food when I have coffee! Maybe I can end every schedule with a ! mark! Okay thats enough... @Cat best of a bad situation really. Mara's immune to sneak attack and Bruno's killer's are worse then Elder's. At least you don't have see invisibility. You don't right!?! Oh heavens, maybe I have had a bit much to drink. :twitch: @Mag: Bilo's still the original shorty, and by far the shortest. In the end isn't that what counts? Certainly moreso then a positive winloss ratio :rolleyes:. @Mo I could prolly fit in an extra fight this weekend if you find it necessary. |
| Jindl12-04-03, 12:41 PM | Originally posted by SnarkHunter @Cat best of a bad situation really. Mara's immune to sneak attack and Bruno's killer's are worse then Elder's. At least you don't have see invisibility. You don't right!?! Oh heavens, maybe I have had a bit much to drink. :twitch: Just you wait, Snarky. Next level, the Elder will get feeblemind, which is the high-level intended use for his SF: Enchament feat. DC 23 (until I raise my Int some more) on a feeblemind spell, and arcane targets take a -4 penalty ... :devil: -Jindl |
| Caterane12-04-03, 02:41 PM | @Snark: Invisibility purge? And I`ve beaten them both. Well, I was just curious and a little worried why Bilo challenged me while I couldn`t find the reason...at least not on my sheet. Thought you know something I don`t. Now I can sleep again in peace. |
| Mercy12-04-03, 03:06 PM | @Mo - Targ's opponent Jagath Kihr (Alterlat) hasn't been leveled to 3rd yet. I'm not sure how you handle this. I'm alright with Targ setting out. I still want to moderate though. |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-04-03, 03:36 PM | All tactics are sent. What? No fights done yet? tsk tsk tsk. Gotta be speedy. LOL j/k Tellish |
| SnarkHunter12-04-03, 03:40 PM | @Jindle, yeah those 5th level spells are pretty terrifying,at least by that level I'll be able to cast Evard's Black tentacles...then we'll just have to see who wins initiative :D. @Cat...riiiight. Ah well. A halfing is as halfling does, and I remain hopeful. Tactics sent for Hanz, and Fluid, I got your message. |
| Jindl12-04-03, 03:52 PM | Originally posted by SnarkHunter @Jindle, yeah those 5th level spells are pretty terrifying,at least by that level I'll be able to cast Evard's Black tentacles...then we'll just have to see who wins initiative :D. Two words for ya! Dimension Door (the ultimate in escaping from grapples.) Also, once flying, your opponent will be pretty much immune to EBT. But you bring up a good point, the Elder's key weakness is his initiative. Expect to see "Improved Initiative" or +Dex items on him soon. -Jindl |
| Caterane12-04-03, 04:17 PM | Indeed, I underestimated initiative when creating the Harvester. I`ll raise dex to 14 next level, give him +2 gloves and put him in a mithril fullplate. |
| Magagumo12-04-03, 04:50 PM | Um, EBT doesn't have to be on thr ground, Jindl :-P. If I recall correctly, it's a nice radius spell, fun for nabbing even fliers. Ah Initiative... sigh, Bruno's greatest weakness still. Of course, Handsome George (and soon, Turkish), help protect me from those nasty 200' move speed people :-P. As for feeblemind and fireball... um... drat :-D |
| Jindl12-04-03, 04:58 PM | Originally posted by Magagumo Um, EBT doesn't have to be on thr ground, Jindl :-P. If I recall correctly, it's a nice radius spell, fun for nabbing even fliers. Well, it is a 20 foot spread, but here's whats written in the spell text: "This spell conjures a field of rubbery black tentacles, each 10 feet long. These waving members seem to spring forth from the earth, floor, or whatever surface is underfoot—including water. They grasp and entwine around creatures that enter the area, holding them fast and crushing them with great strength." So that would indicate that it needs some surface to spring from, and couldn't be a hovering mass of tentacles hanging in mid-air. But if this isn't the case, then EBT does indeed make a great aerial threat :) -Jindl BTW: I have a new character to be posted soon. It's the Core 3.5 variant of the classic Iku Rex Fighting Sorceror. I've got another thread running on it, if ya'll want to take a peek. |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-04-03, 04:58 PM | Originally posted by Magagumo Um, EBT doesn't have to be on thr ground, Jindl :-P. If I recall correctly, it's a nice radius spell, fun for nabbing even fliers. Actually it has to be cast on a surface. Earth, water, pool of lava etc... It can't be cast in thin air as air is not a surface. But that's just my interpretation of it. Tellish |
| sshuit12-04-03, 10:27 PM | Received Tactics for Dragonrain. Would like tactics for Pyre ASAP, then I can start running :-) sshuit |
| Moherajikuyx12-05-03, 06:11 AM | Originally posted by Mercy @Mo - Targ's opponent Jagath Kihr (Alterlat) hasn't been leveled to 3rd yet. I'm not sure how you handle this. I'm alright with Targ setting out. I still want to moderate though. :( He wrote leveling and he edited the sheet... I rolled a low sense motive. Darn. That was tricky. Well, I guess that you have a free week, and Targ gets the short stick, unless he accepts to fight an edited pc and Alterlat edits. |
| Prexx12-05-03, 07:49 AM | @sshuit - I'm writing them right now. I have found it difficult to find a weakness against such a strong opponent. But I think I have a few tricks up my sleeve. I do have a question for the boards that is very important to my tactics I am writing up. What are the rules on pinpointing an invisible creature with a listen check? If you beat the move silently result, you know the general location, and if you beat the result by 20 or more you can pinpoint a square to attack. Right? |
| Irlina12-05-03, 07:56 AM | Yes. But don't forget the range penalty... It's pretty hard pinpointing! |
| Caterane12-05-03, 08:14 AM | How exactly is "general location" defined? Hey Mo, this pre-spell-posting is really anoying. I came up with a good tactic but couldn`t enact it because I memorized the wrong spells. Is there a chance that we cancel this again one day? |
| Prexx12-05-03, 08:27 AM | @Caterane - I always interpreted "general location" as the direction of the noise, and a very vague idea of distance (far away, somewhat close, very close). @sshuit - Tactics have been sent. They are pretty weird, so let me know if you need any clarifications. |
| Mercy12-05-03, 09:10 AM | Targ will accept fighting an edited pc. After all he's the best combatant in the arena :) Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Well, I guess that you have a free week, and Targ gets the short stick, unless he accepts to fight an edited pc and Alterlat edits. |
| Caterane12-05-03, 09:46 AM | Prexx, that`s vague and unclear. Example: may I cast an area spell on him? And then: all area spells? Just 40' feeter? 20' feeter? 10 feeter? None at all? |
| Moherajikuyx12-05-03, 09:49 AM | Not for this fight for sure Cat ;) Can anybody post the special paladin mounts table? I don't have the DMG and I gotta check them... At what lvl is the first special mount avalaible? |
| Market_Share12-05-03, 09:59 AM | Paladin lvl......bonus hd....nat armor....str.....int....special 5-7.......................+2.............. .+4....................+1......6......em pathic link, improved evasion share spells 8-10....................+4................ +6...................+2.......7......imp roved speed 11-14..................+6................+8 ..................+3........8......comma nd creatures of it's kind 15-20..................+8................+1 0.................+4.......9....spell resistance Paladin gets his special mount starting at 5th lvl. hope this helps SPIKE |
| Jindl12-05-03, 10:25 AM | Re: Paladin Mounts - Actually, I think he wants the info for the variant paladin mounts (from the DMG). I don't have my books with me now, but I'll post it later if nobody else had by then. @LLMadCow - Working on the Elder's tactics now. Bubo remains very concerned... @Mo - Didn't I get a moderator's credit last week? (I ran 1 fight and had 1 pc.) What happened to it? -Jindl @ALL - I have a rules question: For my new character, I am planning an aasimar sorceror (fights in melee using alter self / polymorph / etc.) My question is, do aasimars get martial weapon proficiencies automatically because they are Outsiders? This seems to be kinda unclear in the Core rules, and it is currently being debated on my Iku Rex Fighting Sorc thread. But I wanna know in advance what the arena ruling will be. It impacts my character's potential to take Eldritch Knight levels... |
| Moherajikuyx12-05-03, 10:25 AM | Spike - Thanks! Jindl - If all the mods reach 1 credit I delete a column, I think we did, but I'm not that sure... outsiders - looks quite straight forward, what's the opposing argument? Outsider Type: [...] -Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry. -Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Outsiders not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Outsiders are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor. |
| Alterlat12-05-03, 11:20 AM | Sorry about not being available Mercy. I've been out of town at a conference all week and only managed to get on the net long enough to mark Jagath as leveling. I'd resigned myself to not fighting this week, but I've quickly updated Jagath, so if you and stinky are still happy to go ahead with the fight, he's ready. If the fight is on, I'll try to do up some tactics shortly. |
| Caterane12-05-03, 11:21 AM | Jindl of the High Forest (Human Druid 9) - Current Arena Champion !!!! :rolleyes: |
| Jindl12-05-03, 12:37 PM | @Cat - Heh, I'm sure you would have posted something if Ebelin won that fight. :P |
| Mercy12-05-03, 12:45 PM | @Alterlat and StinkyGoblin - I'm still up for the fight. Go ahead and send tactics, I've already done so. Originally posted by Alterlat If the fight is on, I'll try to do up some tactics shortly. |
| Caterane12-05-03, 12:48 PM | @Cat - Heh, I'm sure you would have posted something if Ebelin won that fight Yeah Jindl, but you`ve posted that on 50 different threads throughout the Wizards community including the Miniatures and the Pokemon board :P :P :P :P As far as I remember there was a time when he was at the top; think it was 2 weeks ago or something. Ebelin is in his worst phase now. Hope that passes quickly. Next level is Eldritch Knight which - again - doesn`t give me a spellcaster level. Ok Jindl, the bet is on. Who reaches Level 20 first, wins. |
| sshuit12-05-03, 12:50 PM | I'm confused then, it also says d8 HD, BAB as fighter and good will/fort/reflex saves. Does this mean that this overrides the normal class HD / BAB / Saves? Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Spike - Thanks! Jindl - If all the mods reach 1 credit I delete a column, I think we did, but I'm not that sure... outsiders - looks quite straight forward, what's the opposing argument? |
| Jindl12-05-03, 12:54 PM | Hey Cat! I changed my sig, just for you... @ sshuit - Well, the HD, BAB and Saves are not part of the outsider traits (which are listed seperately). So I think darkvision, the proficiencies, and the inability to ressurrect/raise dead are part of the traits and seperate from the d8 hit die, bab and saves. But, I'm still not sure... -Jindl |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-05-03, 01:07 PM | It's done. I'm on a friends mac so we used a battlemat for the arena. he's got an old and very sluggish mac. He rolled for Ydaf, i rolled for fluid. Hope it's accurate. It was probably the closest fight i've ever run. Some good rolls, some bad rolls, overall though, very blancing rolls and more good news, no one died from a crit, or even a CdG for that matter. Tellish |
| Magagumo12-05-03, 01:28 PM | Aasimars are automatically profiecient with all simple and martial weapons, have darkvision 60', and can be brought back to life with raise dead and resurrection, due to them being (native) outsiders. As for the BA and saves, the native outsiders all use a warrior level in their listings, so you simply use whatever class levels are involved (i.e. they never get an outsider hit die). Oh, interesting note I learned from COmplete Warrior's Guide: Ranged slashing and bludgeoning weapons can be used to sunder items, but all objects take 1/2 damage from these attacks. Piercing weapons, of course, can still not sunder items. So, Lora can theoretically sunder an opponent's scrolls or potions with a readied action and a handaxe for example.. mucho grande :) |
| Moherajikuyx12-05-03, 01:28 PM | Hurtz vs. Faldion Oathguard posted. Both prevented tactics from their adversaries, which resulted completely wrong. sshuit - those things are HD dependant, and a single HD race has its HD substituted by the class HD, so the answer is no. |
| Prexx12-05-03, 01:31 PM | @Cat - In regards to casting spells on an invisible opponent. It depends on the spell. Certain spells have targets listed in their effects. They mearly have an area of effect, and take effect on any target within their area. Examples would be as Fireball, Flame Strike, and Lightning Bolt. These spells do not specify targets when cast, they are simply cast at an area. You could cast these spells at an invisible opponent, but you would not know exactly where he is. See below for a possible solution to this problem. Other spells, such as sleep and horrid wilting, affect an area, require you to designate targets. The man difference between these two is that these spells do not really have an area of effect, but instead target multiple enemies. You can not designate someone who has total concealment as a target for your spell, thus you would be unable to use these spells against an invisible target, even if you were able pinpoint his location. I do understand what you are saying though. The PH lists no rules on how much information you recieve with a successful listen check. I thought about it for a little bit and here is my suggestion. If you succeed at a listen check, you can approximate an opponents position within 40ft. For every 5 points you beat the check you narrow it down by an addition 10ft. Thus if you beat the check by 15-19, you would be able to cast spells that have a 10ft radius. If you beat the check by 10-14, spells with a 20ft radius, etc. So if you beat the check by 10, you would be able to narrow down his location enough to hit him with a fireball. But hitting him with a lightning bolt would be much more difficult and require you to beat the check by 20. |
| Magagumo12-05-03, 01:35 PM | Hmm, not a bad system, Prexx, I'm in favor of it (as one should at least gain some advantage from a close listen check). As for Horrid Wilting, does this mean you can cast it in with yourself in the radius, and not be affected by it? Just curious :-D |
| Jindl12-05-03, 01:39 PM | Re: How well do I hear you? I like Prexx's method for determining how much you can narrow down the area of listen checks. Since the core rules are unclear, I would second the idea of using his method in the arena. One note for Prexx: Sleep is no longer a targeted spell, it is now a burst and thus can be used on invisible opponents. Re: Outsiders with martial weapons Well, the consesus seems to be that aasimars and tieflings get martial and simple weapon proficiency and Darkvision 60' as part of the outsider traits. So, I'll incorporate that into my build. -Jindl |
| sshuit12-05-03, 01:41 PM | Prexx : I need your tactics resent. I got a blank message! |
| Magagumo12-05-03, 01:48 PM | Still haven't recieved Gage's tactics, but no huge rush, the plan is to run it Saturday evening.. after my 7 hr climax session for my campaign (last game of the semester, so it's going to be quite interesting I hope :)) |
| fluiddragon12-05-03, 01:55 PM | Originally posted by Magagumo Still haven't recieved Gage's tactics, but no huge rush, the plan is to run it Saturday evening.. after my 7 hr climax session for my campaign (last game of the semester, so it's going to be quite interesting I hope :)) Still writing them and I have an ecommerce site going live today. I'll get them out tomarrow. -fd |
| MotherBast12-05-03, 02:02 PM | @KerlanRayne: I have Paul's tacts, and I would love to run this fight today, to get it out of the way for my weekend, so if you could send my your tactics asap that would be great. If not, I can run it saterday, but I must run it before sunday, as I have my gaming group sunday, and I beging a new shift at work monday, so I wont be able to run any fights after saterday anymore. |
| SnarkHunter12-05-03, 02:02 PM | Hey MO: The rules for special mounts are as follows If the unusual mount is for a paladin it may gain special abilities at a different than a warhorse or warpony. Furthermore some special mounts are available only to paladins of higher levels. A paladin of 6th level or higher can use a celestial heavy warhorse, dire wolf, hippogriff, large monstrous spider, Large shark, unicorn, Celestial warpony, Dire bat, dire badger, dire weasel, or giant lizard as a mount. At 7th level the dire boar, dire wolverine, giant eagle, giant owl, pegasus, rhinoceros, and sea cat become available. At 8th level a paladin can use a dire Lion or Griffon as a mount. See the table below to see when a paladin's unusual mount gains special abilities. If the mounts natural intelligence or natural armor is higher then the value given in the table use the mounts natural intelligence or natural armor (and see intelligent mounts below). If the mount normally has spell resistance it does not lose its spell resistance prior to the paladin's reaching the level at which all unusual mounts gain spell resistance, and the mount continues using its natural spell resistance from that level on if that value is higher. The left hand column of the table refer to the current level of the paladin in relation to the level at which a particular mount becomes available. for instance the Monk-bane (The pegasus) became available to Moon-Moon when he reache d7th level, so the information on level to level +2 applies to Moon for levels 7, 8, and 9. At level 10 Monk gain gets the bonuses from the next line down. Paladin Level by Mount Availability Bonus HD Natural Armor Adj. Str Adj, Int. Level to Level +2 +2 +4 +1 6 Level + 3 to Level +5 +4 +6 +2 7 Level + 6 to Level +9 +6 +8 +3 8 Level + 10 or higher +8 +10 +4 9 Hmm I need to double check but I think Monk Bane's nat armor may be a bit high. Edit: Hmm in the Pg the natural armor is an improvement to the mounts score. I think I'll go with the rules for varient mounts though. Also tactics sent for Hanz. I'll have Bilo's in an hour or so. I recieved tactics for the monks and I'll prolly run them tonight! |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-05-03, 02:23 PM | @Mo. Nope, you got the tactics bang on. I just didn't anticipate the fireballs and that's my fault. The reason i was stingy on buffs was because i really expected him to use charging, which is what my tactics prevented. The reason i provoked so often was cuz i kinda thought he wouldn't be beside me when i did my actions. LOL I screwed up in anticipating my opponents tactics and really looked stupid out in the battle field. I truely deserved that loss. If it weren't for the fireballs i'd have had a few extra attacks on him and it might have changed. Oh well. It wasn't a very expensive loss. But i did learn my lesson. My reason for dismounting was to prevent the charge. I thought about being a cheese-weasel and just ride around with arrows indefinately until he died since i had such greater mobility, but didn't want to put you through the headaches of it all. Oh well. Next week. Tellish |
| Jindl12-05-03, 03:10 PM | Iku Rex, the fighting sorceror, has entered the arena (in Tomah's old spot). Please mark him ready (and check him for errors). @LLMadCow - Tactics coming your way very soon ;) -Jindl EDIT: Okay, this sig is getting annoying. Removing it after this post. |
| Moherajikuyx12-05-03, 03:31 PM | ToK - uff, quite relieved. I'm going to always do the strategies pair of lines now. Thanks Snark! That's precious, I'll link it somewhere. |
| Caterane12-05-03, 04:01 PM | Just got the Complete Warrior and oh my god, I am unworthy Hey can we please incorporate the book? Ebelin was supposed to be a Bladesinger in the first place but I was left with the Eldritch Knight. :drool: |
| fluiddragon12-05-03, 04:07 PM | Originally posted by Caterane Just got the Complete Warrior and oh my god, I am unworthy Hey can we please incorporate the book? Ebelin was supposed to be a Bladesinger in the first place but I was left with the Eldritch Knight. :drool: I second this! |
| Magagumo12-05-03, 05:17 PM | Hexblade, Occult slayer, Order of Bow Initiate, etc, etc cause me to beg for this as well!!! |
| MotherBast12-05-03, 05:19 PM | I also love that handbook, but if we include it now, it would kinda be unfair to the caster classes, as there handbook hasen't been released yet. Lots of melee feats and classes in that book, but little to nothing for the caster types, so it would be a power scale tip twords the warrior classes.... maybe we should think about it after the complete casters handbook, or whatever they will call it comes out. |
| SnarkHunter12-05-03, 05:29 PM | I weap. Yes its a very good book...but not everyone is going to own it. *tear* |
| Caterane12-05-03, 05:49 PM | When looking at the roster it seems the spellcaster types don`t need much support compared to the fighters. Perhaps we can skip the feats and just take over the prestige classes...at least the Bladesinger :D |
| Jindl12-05-03, 06:18 PM | @LLMadCow - tactics sent for the Elder. RE: The Complete Warrior - Although I like the book, I don't think its well balanced, or that it should be allowed in the arena, for the simple reason that not everyone will have it. Everyone will certainly have the SRD, PHB, DMG, and MM. But the CW is not commonly owned. Also, I have seen some posts that really make me wonder about this book (there's one post explaining how to get 12 points of damage per point of bab sacrificed in power attack using frenzied beserker + lance + spirited charge + combat brute.) I don't think this is something that can be added here. -Jindl |
| fluiddragon12-05-03, 06:37 PM | Arcane Strike - sorcerer nuff said There are a few nice things in there for casters. |
| Magagumo12-05-03, 06:53 PM | Too true Jindl. Why I do not quite question its balance (for all prestige classes are incredibly powerful, if focused), it is largely a matter of who might have access to it. Certainly, I wouldn't mind the vast array of prestige classes accesible within (Hexblade/ Dragon Disciple and Swashbuckler/Duelist are amazing combinations), it is true that we should not incorporate it in this arena. *tear* As it must be, so it must be. |
| sshuit12-06-03, 01:29 AM | Wily wizard wacks warrior? or Magical monk mashes magician? Read on and find out! |
| Magagumo12-06-03, 02:05 AM | Hmm, this is a little too late to affect the Pyre vs. Dragon Rain fight, but I'm afraid the ranger monk is not able to use that wand yet. Until a ranger gains the ability to cast spells (4th level I believe), he is not considered to have a spell list. I know Ander used to use scrolls of longstrider, but I was horribly mistaken. This same principle functions for paladins. In the end, no caster level=no spell list=no scrolls or wands. Sorry to rain on anyones parade. |
| Moherajikuyx12-06-03, 05:11 AM | Good boys! You resisted the tentation of sin! *edit* Originally posted by Magagumo Sorry to rain on anyones parade. Hey I like this one! |
| Irlina12-06-03, 06:24 AM | @Telish Thank you for running the fight, however, there are some (minor) mistakes and some other points. You got my tactics wrong, but this is my fault since I wasn't clear enough about some points (I didn't want starting buffing till Phase A is finished and I'm close enough. I have 0 lvl healing spells!). Some of the durations of the spells have been wrong (I'm a 2nd lvl caster, so most of the spells had 2 round duration- come on, you should know that!). I'd like to have seen the saving throws (I'm a little bit surprised how often I coundn't do anything in the swarm since I've got very high saves for a 2nd level char (dwarf!) and the DC was only 12). The swarm can't hit me while I have total cover (tower shield). Total cover has no miss chance of 100% but simply makes an attack impossible (p.152 PG, "You can't make an attack against a target that has total cover.", p.316 MM "swarm [...] deal automatic damage to any creature whose space they occupy at the end of heir move, with no attack roll needed. [...] not subject to miss chance for concealment or cover." Seems quite contradictonary on first sight, since swarm seem to auto-hit and total cover seems to autodefend. However total cover doesn't allow an attack at all- also no swarm attack. So the ruling about swarm-attacks is unimportant since no attack can take place and this ruling doesn't come into play! So in essence I am a little bit displeased since I thought swarms wouldn't be an issue with my shield. A simply counter, like FD did, would have been Prot. From Good (with duration of 20 round ;) )... Grrr... However, thank you for running the fight. For a 2nd level fights it was surely a hard one. |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-06-03, 07:16 AM | @irlina I'm at a friends place in montreal. We just rolled the dice manually. He has a very slow mac and i'm not accustomed to switching. Swarms can hit something with total cover. Swarms are an area. Swarms hit everything in an area whether they have cover or concealment. As for the caster lvl, just increase the delay times then. It makes zero difference in the outcome of the fight. The rolls are legit, whether you believe them or not. Please do not question my integrity in this issue. I'm one of the few ppl who make judicious use of the online roller, and when i don't it's for a good reason. And to be honest, you got some really lucky rolls in pin-pointing. Really lucky. It shouldn't have been as close as it was. As for the zero lvl healing, it only gives you 1 pt back. So then that makes you at -5 instead. Again, not something effective or covered. **EDIT** Wait a sec...you didn't even have the tower shield when the swarm came? bah! whatever. Tellish |
| fluiddragon12-06-03, 07:43 AM | Originally posted by Magagumo Hmm, this is a little too late to affect the Pyre vs. Dragon Rain fight, but I'm afraid the ranger monk is not able to use that wand yet. Until a ranger gains the ability to cast spells (4th level I believe), he is not considered to have a spell list. I know Ander used to use scrolls of longstrider, but I was horribly mistaken. This same principle functions for paladins. In the end, no caster level=no spell list=no scrolls or wands. Sorry to rain on anyones parade. Actually you are wrong, a quote from the srd: Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it’s even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Anyone with a spell on his or her spell list knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell. (This is the case even for a character who can’t actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin.) The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. And wands are spell trigger devices, so no rain is falling on my parade. :D :angel: This is perfectly legal. Scrolls are another issue and I'm not sure if they can use them, as they have no caster level, hense why DR has no scrolls. |
| fluiddragon12-06-03, 07:48 AM | @ Irlina The swarm can't hit me while I have total cover (tower shield). Total cover has no miss chance of 100% but simply makes an attack impossible (p.152 PG, "You can't make an attack against a target that has total cover.", p.316 MM "swarm [...] deal automatic damage to any creature whose space they occupy at the end of heir move, with no attack roll needed. [...] not subject to miss chance for concealment or cover." Seems quite contradictonary on first sight, since swarm seem to auto-hit and total cover seems to autodefend. However total cover doesn't allow an attack at all- also no swarm attack. So the ruling about swarm-attacks is unimportant since no attack can take place and this ruling doesn't come into play! Swarms don't make attack rolls. Neither do stinking clouds or ice storms. You simply suffer the effects of being in the swarm. The shield negates attacks, but the swarm is an area effect spell not an attack. It is a good spell but easily protected against. A potion of hide from animals or any prot. spell will work. Being close to you I had to use a prot. fr evil so i wouldn't get hit. Don't feel to bad I got creamed by a kobold at 4th level with this spell. The bat swarm is particularly nasty, good move and wounding. I'm sure you won't get hit again by it :D. I've been dying to try it since it nailed me so bad. -fd |
| Caterane12-06-03, 07:53 AM | Is this some kind of running gag that Irlina always loses? No matter what the odds are but you HAVE to win over that long period at least once. Perhaps it`s better that way for I fear the universe will collapse the moment Irlina wins a fight :P |
| fluiddragon12-06-03, 07:59 AM | @ sshuit In regards to the Dragonrain fight vs Pyre - Dragon Rain has the defelct arrows feat and though it didn't have an out come on the match it could have, and did cost me 100 gp which is deducted from your pay :D LOL. He auto defelcts 1 missile attack per round, I probably forgot to mention that in my tactics though, but it is on the character sheet. Its a very nice feat. Other than that good fight, sorry you didn't get the tactics for Pyre. |
| Alathar Vierce12-06-03, 08:24 AM | Just to make sure I sent tactics for Carane a few days ago, did you recieve them FD? |
| MotherBast12-06-03, 08:30 AM | OK, its saterday and no tactics were recived for Tomar, so I'm running the fight using defalt tactics. I will have it posted in a couple of hours. |
| Jindl12-06-03, 09:05 AM | Originally posted by fluiddragon [BSwarms don't make attack rolls. Neither do stinking clouds or ice storms. You simply suffer the effects of being in the swarm. The shield negates attacks, but the swarm is an area effect spell not an attack. It is a good spell but easily protected against. A potion of hide from animals or any prot. spell will work. Being close to you I had to use a prot. fr evil so i wouldn't get hit.[/B] Actually, hide from animals will only prevent the swarm from detecting you (like concealment). But if you happen to be within the area, then you still take damage. Protection from alignment spells prevent bodily contact, and thus can negate the area attack of the swarm. -Jindl EDIT: No cumulative bleeding. Thanks, Mag! |
| MotherBast12-06-03, 09:12 AM | quick question.... If a mounted character is triped, is he prone, or just standing on the groud? Does it make a difference if he sucessfully soft falls? Soft fall dosen't say it stops him from being prone, only that it prevents the damage, but under tripping a mounted foe it says only that he is pulled from his mount, not how he lands..... Not that any of this has anything at all to do with the fight I'm running. Now, If the character does land on his feet, then can the other character use his free attack from improved trip to attempt a second trip attempt? or does improved trip's bonus attack have to be a melee attack? [edit] I tried searching the boards for an answer to this question, but found nothing. No one has responded as of yet to this post, and I need to finish this fight up, so since I can find no reason why he wouldn't be, I'm going to assume the mounted character is prone after the sucessful trip. If I'm wrong, I'm sorry, but I've already spent to long trying to find a ruling on this, and I need to get this done. |
| sshuit12-06-03, 09:53 AM | Just when I thought the match couldn't be any more 1 sided :) So you he had 3 attack options . Bow, Magic missles, Scorching Rays. And you had Deflect arrows, Brooch of shielding, Potion of resist fire. That leaves him...... dagger? LOL. Waiting for you to starve to death? I'll just say that he held his shoot actions until both your hands were on the bow to shoot at him. Does that work OK for you? There isn't anyway for you to use a bow 1 handed afaik. sshuit Originally posted by fluiddragon @ sshuit In regards to the Dragonrain fight vs Pyre - Dragon Rain has the defelct arrows feat |
| fluiddragon12-06-03, 10:02 AM | Originally posted by sshuit Just when I thought the match couldn't be any more 1 sided :) So you he had 3 attack options . Bow, Magic missles, Scorching Rays. And you had Deflect arrows, Brooch of shielding, Potion of resist fire. That leaves him...... dagger? LOL. Waiting for you to starve to death? I'll just say that he held his shoot actions until both your hands were on the bow to shoot at him. Does that work OK for you? There isn't anyway for you to use a bow 1 handed afaik. sshuit :D well this is the min/max board. I'll be running my fights tonight. I got tactics from everyone but Stinky. If I don't get the tactics by 5pm est I'll run the fight using default tatics. -fd |
| Magagumo12-06-03, 10:14 AM | *coughs politely*Well yes.. hmm *sheepish grin* This is what I get for trying to recall esoteric rules at 2 AM without looking at the rules. Thanks for correcting me :) And to pass the corrections along, bat swarms do not produce cumulative wounding from their bites, just 1/round. I had a 4th level party nearly kill a gauth that wayy, it had no way to stop the bleeding!! ;) |
| Irlina12-06-03, 10:20 AM | @Tellish & others: Actually I liked your running of the fight-although I lost. Some good points in it (running of luck domain). But I imagined it running a very different way but this is my fault since my tactics haven't been clear enough. I trust you rolling the dice right but I always like to see roll and modifiers (and not only end-results- since quite often there something to complain about ;) ) However I don't agree on the swarm attack. I already quoted the rules. And the swarm autohits if he's got an attack. Total cover does not allow an attack. No attack- no autohit. And it's not like cloud spells or whatever. It summons a creature which attacks and autohits. But it simply has no attackopion against total cover. Stupid to think about (crawling things all over) but image a thick cover of stone all about someone. Protected from all sides but would count also as total cover. No possibility to attack but first breaking the cover. |
| Magagumo12-06-03, 10:45 AM | Hre's the thing, a tower shield does not surround you, you are simply assumed to be orienting it towards your opponents when they attack. Now, imagine a cloud that surrounds you on all sides, biting, scratching, and nipping at our back as you try to shield your self in vain, they crawl abotu you, injecting poison, opening wounds, and filling you with disease. I Love Swarms :love: |
| fluiddragon12-06-03, 11:19 AM | Originally posted by Irlina @Tellish & others: Actually I liked your running of the fight-although I lost. Some good points in it (running of luck domain). But I imagined it running a very different way but this is my fault since my tactics haven't been clear enough. I trust you rolling the dice right but I always like to see roll and modifiers (and not only end-results- since quite often there something to complain about ;) ) However I don't agree on the swarm attack. I already quoted the rules. And the swarm autohits if he's got an attack. Total cover does not allow an attack. No attack- no autohit. And it's not like cloud spells or whatever. It summons a creature which attacks and autohits. But it simply has no attackopion against total cover. Stupid to think about (crawling things all over) but image a thick cover of stone all about someone. Protected from all sides but would count also as total cover. No possibility to attack but first breaking the cover. The whole thing about a swarm is it does not "attack" you simpy take damage from being in the swarm, unless you have damage reduction or a prot. spell. It bypasses the attack mechanism. Plus a tower shield is not anything like a stone dome. You can hide behind a wall for total cover to but the bats still get you. Its a nasty spell but easilly defended against. -fd |
| Moherajikuyx12-06-03, 12:04 PM | I would treat it as plain as possible: a tripped pc goes prone, no matter where he is; one tripped from horse gets damage unless he soft lands, then is prone. Originally posted by MotherBast quick question.... If a mounted character is triped, is he prone, or just standing on the groud? Does it make a difference if he sucessfully soft falls? |
| fluiddragon12-06-03, 12:11 PM | tactics sent for Gage, still havn't got stinky's |
| MotherBast12-06-03, 12:11 PM | Yeah, thats how I ran it.... the fight is posted now, feel free to see how it all worked out. as far as swarms go, I would agree, they do not attack at all, so even total cover does not prevent there damage. Its not the same as autohitting, they simply dont attack, at all..... if you were in a stone building, surrounded on all sides, it wouldn't be the cover that prevented the swarm from hitting you, it would be the inabity of the spell to target the area inside the building, so the bugs/bats/whatever would not have the chace to occupy the area, nor could they move through the walls into the area. A towershild gives cover, but dosen't protect the area from spells, so the swarm can occupy the area. No autoattack, just autodamage. |
| Irlina12-06-03, 12:13 PM | According to logic a tower shield doesn't help (bats from all sides) according to the rules it does! The question is whether total cover would help against a swarm. A swarm is a creature (NOT A SPELL!) that does attack anything in its region (IT IS ALLOWED TO ATTACK, spells deny this possibility to attack) and autohits. But in order to attack it does need the possibility to attack - which total cover denies. (p 152 pg) I'm not *****ing about the outcome of the fight- well I lost, again... the neverending story. But I think when you read the rules for total cover and swarm you have to admit that they're not clear. And I still believe that my interpretation is right. |
| MotherBast12-06-03, 12:42 PM | I have given the swarm thing some thought, and I looked it up. The swarm ability is listed as an attack. Total cover does prevent any attacks. The shield does provide total cover. As illogical as it sounds, going strictly by the rules, a tower shield would indeed prevent a swarm from dealing its damage. I must say, this isen't the first time the rules have conflicted with logic, but in all other cases, the rules took presidence, so I belive they should in this case as well. I change my stance on this matter. Total cover would indeed prevent the swarm's damage, no matter how that cover is attained. The swarm can't ignore the miss chance for cover, because the total cover has no miss chance, it prevents the attack entirely. |
| Jindl12-06-03, 01:15 PM | Re: Dragonrain vs Pyre - I noticed three mistakes, all on the entangles: 1. The save DC for a wand of entangle (CL1) is 11 (not 14). The DC is calculated at the minimun ability score necessary to cast the spell, in this case a wis of 11 for a 1st level spell. DC = 10 + 1 spell level + 0 wis = 11. 2. It didn't look like Pyre was making concentration checks while in the area of the entangle. Please note that he must succeed on a concentration check for each entangle spell he is in. He also must make a seperate reflex save for each overlapping entangle area he is in. Note: I'm not suggesting that the effects of multiple entangles stack, merely that he has to pass multiple saves to not be entangled. 3. The effects of failing a reflex against an entangle are more than just being stuck to the ground. You also get a -2 penalty on all attacks and a -4 penalty to dex. This is the equivalent of Pyre suffering a -4 on ranged attacks and a -2 on AC, for the missile duel that ensued. -Jindl |
| Jindl12-06-03, 01:35 PM | Re: Swarms and Cover Hopefully the two quotes I post below can help settle this debate: from SRD, under Types, Swarm, Swarm attack Creatures with the swarm subtype don't make standard melee attacks. Instead, they deal automatic damage to any creature whose space they occupy at the end of their move, with no attack roll needed. Swarm attacks are not subject to a miss chance for concealment or cover. from SRD, under Bat Swarm, under blindsense ability A bat swarm notices and locates creatures within 20 feet. Opponents still have total concealment against the bat swarm (but swarm attacks ignore concealment). So, here's my summary of the above quotes: If the swarm can enter your space, then it deals automatic damage. It doesn't matter if you're invisible or blurred, because swarms ignore concealment, and that includes total concealment. It also doesn't matter if you have cover, or total cover, because swarms are not subject to cover. There are only two ways to prevent a swarm from damaging you: Magical barriers that prevent bodily contact, such as protection from alignment (only on summoned swarms) or repel vermin. And preventing the swarm from entering your square, such as by sealing yourself inside something it cannot penetrate. A tower shield may grant total cover, but swarms are not subject to cover (and this includes total cover, just like it includes total concealment). So, sadly a tower shield cannot protect you from a swarm. I suggest investing 50 gp in a protection from (alignment) potion. -Jindl |
| Jindl12-06-03, 02:14 PM | Re: Paul vs Tomar - Just a note: When attempting a fast mount the armor check penalty applies. Paul's banded mail would have reduced his Ride to a +3 on the multiple fast mounts he attempted. Also, since military saddles grant a +2 on all Ride checks "related to staying in the saddle", this +2 bonus should have been included in Paul's attempts to resist being tripped off his mount. -Jindl |
| MotherBast12-06-03, 02:37 PM | Bah, your correct. I missed both of those modifiers. Paul would have remained mounted once out of the twice he failed, and would have failed both of his fast mount attempts..... I even checked the book to see if ACP applied to fast mount, I don't know how I forgot it in the 30 seconds it took me to look away from the book and roll the die.... I don't think it affected the outcome that much though, as the two mistakes sorta cancle each other out. |
| Mercy12-06-03, 03:50 PM | The battle for dwarven honor (Dorrin vs. Peter Patroclus) is done. Any and all criticism is welcomed. |
| Prexx12-06-03, 04:25 PM | I leave for a day and look what happens! Ohh well, I would have figured as much would happen without proper tactics in the fight. I don't feel too bad since I didn't use any of my consumable items, it's not really a big deal, I'll just fight again next week. I sent the tactics. I guess something happened that erased them. I'll give you a general overview of my tactics, not that it matters now. I was going to use blindness against him. Once he was blinded, he would be unable to use any ranged attacks against me, and unable to use deflect arrows against my ranged attacks. I would then stun him with color spray and disarm his brooch of shielding so I could use magic missile on him. Then just expeditious retreat and stay away while pelting the poor blind monk with arrows. Too late now I guess, would be interesting to see how the fight would have went tho. Man, that is 5 fights I have lost to bad luck/circumstances. Lost to Panza from a crit, lost to Zorander from a crit, lost to Kern from two consecutive failed touches, lost to Paul from errors, and lost to Dragonrain from weird email error. Not saying I would have necessarily won all of those fights, but at least they would have been fights instead of complete and utter defeats. Now I know why I call him Pyre the Cursed. |
| Caterane12-06-03, 04:31 PM | Good story Motherbast. The story around the unknown Arena proprieters tightens and I like the way more and more characters have their own reasons to unveil the mysterie. The Harvester`s reason has been mentioned a couple of times and if I guess correctly Fluiddragon will continue this storyline. Another thing: Please read it. As I`ve already mentioned I got the Complete Warrior and I just stumbled upon a section that describes rules for gladiatoral combat. I love the idea. Additionally that provides a prefect solution to the "Starve opponoment to death" problem I`ve been thinking about for several days now. Short introduction for those who don`t possess the book: The crowd influences the fight. They start indifferent to each character. For each step that the reaction of the crowd improves towards you you gain +1 to attack and -1 if it lessens. There are a number of actions listed that influence the crowds reaction like "Rolls a crit", "Sunders a weapon", "Trip an opponoment" or "Feint in combat", just to name a few. That would definately add more color to the battle while at the same time penalizes tactics like Octavian`s "Wait until his buffs wear out" :mad: With these rules we need not add doubtful rules like "10 rounds for Rope trick" because it fulfills itself: what good does it bring if you boost yourself for XX rounds when you get -3 penalty to attacks from the crowd while your opponoment gets +3? Straightforward tactics are now rewarded. I hope you agree with me so that the arena reaches a new level of entertainment... And this has nothing to do with being non-core! |
| fluiddragon12-06-03, 04:39 PM | Cat I think that those gladiator rules would swing the balance too much in favor of the fighters. Primary casters by nature need time to buff. And fighter type characters try to eliminate the buff time. Casters already can't prebuff with things that they could in an impending battle in an adventure. This rule would work fine for 2 fighters but it really hurts those who need to spend time buffing. Personally when I run a fight I'm simply not going to run a 600 round fight waiting for sombodies buffs to wear off. You can always hope to luck and specify no resources are to be used (DragonRain won his 2nd fight this way) and wait for an opponent who you have a better chance against if you can do nothing against your current opponent. |
| MotherBast12-06-03, 05:38 PM | Comming from you Cat, I take "good story" as high praise... I know this is suposed to be a Min/Max thread, but I really get into the roleplay aspect of it. I often go to the gladiators thread and just read up on the characters' storylines.... Its very cool how many of the characters are connected, and so many arcing storylines are taking place in this arena. This was my first level 5 fight, and I wanted to really start dipping into preexisting storylines, and maybe connect a few new characters to them. I glad the effort was well recived. |
| Draloth12-06-03, 06:09 PM | I like that idea Cat-when you have a melee character who falls to opponants who cowerdly ride away, such an idea is very appealing. I suggest that we either treat this as an actual arena, or just call it a duel or some such. Fleeing from a fight- or at least until the opponant is exhasted from his rage winding down (grumble) should incur penalties for the person who runs. |
| sshuit12-06-03, 06:32 PM | Sorry about the mistakes. In my defence, 1. I looked for wand save DC's and couldn't find anything in the DMG or player's handbook about them anywhere. Can you provide a page reference? 2.&3. I just looked at the spell description for the effect of the entangle. I should have checked the glossary for full details. Why don't they put that IN THE SPELL DESCRIPTION ??? :confused: Originally posted by Jindl Re: Dragonrain vs Pyre - I noticed three mistakes, all on the entangles: 1. The save DC for a wand of entangle (CL1) is 11 (not 14). The DC is calculated at the minimun ability score necessary to cast the spell, in this case a wis of 11 for a 1st level spell. DC = 10 + 1 spell level + 0 wis = 11. 2. It didn't look like Pyre was making concentration checks while in the area of the entangle. Please note that he must succeed on a concentration check for each entangle spell he is in. He also must make a seperate reflex save for each overlapping entangle area he is in. Note: I'm not suggesting that the effects of multiple entangles stack, merely that he has to pass multiple saves to not be entangled. 3. The effects of failing a reflex against an entangle are more than just being stuck to the ground. You also get a -2 penalty on all attacks and a -4 penalty to dex. This is the equivalent of Pyre suffering a -4 on ranged attacks and a -2 on AC, for the missile duel that ensued. -Jindl |
| sshuit12-06-03, 06:41 PM | Let me just make a few quick rolls :) Blindness : Dragonrain Fortitude save : 16+7 makes vs DC 17. 2nd Blindness : Dragonrain Fortitude save : 14+7 makes vs DC 17 Color Spray : Natural 1 fails against DC 16 Stunned 2 rounds. 2nd Color Spray : 14 + 6 saves vs DC 16 3rd Color Spray : 15 + 6 saves vs DC 16. So the blindness strategy would probably not have worked, you would have color sprayed him once (assuming you weren't entangled and could get to him....) That strat would have been much better than what actually happened but I had to run with default spells and strats. Sorry again ! Originally posted by Prexx I leave for a day and look what happens! Ohh well, I would have figured as much would happen without proper tactics in the fight. I don't feel too bad since I didn't use any of my consumable items, it's not really a big deal, I'll just fight again next week. I sent the tactics. I guess something happened that erased them. I'll give you a general overview of my tactics, not that it matters now. I was going to use blindness against him. Once he was blinded, he would be unable to use any ranged attacks against me, and unable to use deflect arrows against my ranged attacks. I would then stun him with color spray and disarm his brooch of shielding so I could use magic missile on him. Then just expeditious retreat and stay away while pelting the poor blind monk with arrows. Too late now I guess, would be interesting to see how the fight would have went tho. Man, that is 5 fights I have lost to bad luck/circumstances. Lost to Panza from a crit, lost to Zorander from a crit, lost to Kern from two consecutive failed touches, lost to Paul from errors, and lost to Dragonrain from weird email error. Not saying I would have necessarily won all of those fights, but at least they would have been fights instead of complete and utter defeats. Now I know why I call him Pyre the Cursed. |
| MotherBast12-06-03, 06:45 PM | While I like the CWH, and everything in it, I would warn against using the arena combat stuff here. In addition to favoring melee types heavly, those rules also represent intangables that wont exist in your typical encounter between to fighters. The arena is just our staging ground for the combat trials, and the fact that its an arena shouldn't directly affect the fight itself, and many mods actually stage fights that take place in other planes, on cliffs, in graveyards, on hillsides, so forth and so on..... the arena combat rules wouldn't make sence for these fights, and would certanly restrict mods in the type of story they told. If Fighters begain taking actions they knew would improve crowd response, but then the mod puts the fight in a forest, with no crowd, then the tactics suddenly have a flaw. While those rules are great for an actual arena, our arena is more just for storyline than for game effect. It could just as easly be a flat piece of land outside of town with a few pillars and rocks on it. it is generic, and that is good, since that way everyones abilies can be assumed to work, and no one is unfairly rewarded or punished. Using those rules, which I would concider not core anyway, (they arn't in a core book) would pidgon hole the combats into an actual arena setting, where certan types of character have a deffinate advantage. This isen't about who is the best ARENA gladiator, its about what types of builds can be successful in a generic, combat orriented campain world. Thats my take on it anyway. |
| Caterane12-06-03, 07:16 PM | Cat I think that those gladiator rules would swing the balance too much in favor of the fighters. We could even leave that part with the delay out. And casters are already favored. Spellcasters excell in short battles while they lack the endurance to prevail in a dungeon crawl where there are plenty of battles over the day. The fact that the fighters don`t run out of firepower doesn`t do them any good in the arena so this would rather even the odds than unbalance them. And again: look at the roster: do you see any fighters at the top? Just casters. Casters already can't prebuff with things that they could in an impending battle in an adventure. Of course they can. Extend spell + 8th caster level, no problem. Primary casters by nature need time to buff. You won`t get penalties if you cast three spells but I speak of people vanishing for 10+ rounds and come back glittering all over with magic. And of course they can still do this...but at a price. The main reason is to prevent the "Wait until spell/rage wears off". and many mods actually stage fights that take place in other planes, on cliffs, in graveyards, on hillsides, so forth and so on..... the arena combat rules wouldn't make sence for these fights, and would certanly restrict mods in the type of story they told. Of course not, Motherbast. The same story modifications can be applied to another setting. In a forest area perhaps the animals chirp, or on an empty plane the modifiers reflect the mood of the gladiators. Most of the moderators run the fights in the arena anyway but if there`s a moderator who uses innovation to set up a different stage he surely has enough ideas left to incorporate the "crowd modifiers" in any way. Give me a setting and I`ll spontaneously give you the source of the "crowd modifiers". That`s really no problem. How often did I think "Ah, buffing the Harvester for 10 rounds while fleeing from the enemy would nearly assure victory but hey, he`s cooler than that so let him charge from the beginning on." Such straightforward tactics should be rewarded. Well I think we should try it out like we did with the prebuff postings. If you don`t mind I will incorporate the arena crowd modifiers in my next fight. |
| Prexx12-06-03, 07:21 PM | Time for another one of Pyre's quick questions. Would a barbarian wearing mithril full plate still retain his fast movement ability? @sshuit - No hard feelings bud. I'm perfectly cool about the outcome, just a little disappointed that we didn't get to play it out. I would have liked to see what would have happened if the blindness did hit him. I think it would have been a pretty close fight even if he was blind. Dragonrain is probably the most formidable opponent Pyre has ever faced. Realizing this, I wrote in my tactics "If both blindess spells are resisted, just surrender". It was very important that I didn't expend any consumables unless I had a very good chance of winning, and since you didn't use any of my consumable items, I'm happy. @Mo - A new gladiator has entered the arena! Krakskul (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2019022#post2019022)! (Link is http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2019022#post2019022) |
| fluiddragon12-06-03, 07:27 PM | I don't have a problem waiting a few rounds for a buff to wear off or making the raging barbarian chase you on your horse till he gets tired. What I don't like is waiting more than 10 rounds or so at that point its just silly. Part of the tactics is knowing when to rage or when to quaff a potion. Drawing something out for a few rounds is ok, but I think the other dimentional rule should apply loosely if its more than 10 rounds you forfit. Honestly if you can't compete against a certian character save your resources, tell the mod use nothing and beat him over the head with my spell book, you will lose the match but no resources. You might get lucky with the dice. Its better than asking a mod to wait 600 rounds till the buffs are gone then attack him. Some characters just dominate others of the same level. I personally would ask a player to revise his tactics to something else if he wanted me to run such a battle. But I don't think we need to use this rule from CW. I'd like to add the feats and PrC's though. Core is rather bland in that area. I don't have the book but I'd be willing to shell out the bucks for a copy if it was legal in the arena. If you look at the FAQ it listed one of the reasons it is core only is the 3.0 and 3.5 differences, which is valid. I think 1 more book would be ok but I wouldn't want to have to buy 5-6 books. (Not that we'll use it anyway, I just feel like subjegating you all to my worthless opinions :D) -fd edit @ Cat If you want to use the arena modifications I would just ask the players if they minded being a guinny pig. (I'd definitely like to see it tested before implementing.) But if it was a fight with Gage then I definitely would not want the mods applied. I keep looking for ways to extend the fight to bring the sorcerers strengths to bear, and some times these tactics are not crowd pleasers. I think this rule penalizes certain builds. I personally like running and writting upfront battles better and would rather do that but not all builds are geared towards stright up tactics. |
| Caterane12-06-03, 07:37 PM | Fluid - as I already mentioned we can leave the one modifier out that regulates buff time (though I would still vote for it). I would also love to see the complete Warrior. The Arena will sooner or later run out of ideas. We already have a copy or three of each character and that won`t get better. Sure, they have a different background story but that`s all. The sheer number of Prestige Classes bring a new level of color into the Arena never known before. Also the stories of the fights and the gladiators will get more detailed and diverse. On top of that we will see these new classes into action and can test them. Ah and the three new core classes... I want to add a third character for a month now but couldn`t come up with one that hasn`t been seen here before. Now with the CW I have to hold back not to post 20 new characters, all of which I`m eager to test... The feats would be cool, too. Especially Divine might and the other divine feats, since this makes Charisma again worth taking when not a sorcerer. |
| Caterane12-06-03, 07:56 PM | Ethendril, eh? :uh-huh: Lets see. Registered in December 2003, one and only one post so far on all the boards which was the character he posted and despite being an absolute newbie to board and arena alike he managed to post a flawless character. Not even using the standard sheet but still having all vital information on it. And no introduction on the comments thread; what manners. Should I go on? Come on, who is it? I guess it`s a moderator who wanted to add a character without moding an additional fight? Pah. |
| fluiddragon12-06-03, 08:26 PM | Originally posted by Caterane Fluid - as I already mentioned we can leave the one modifier out that regulates buff time (though I would still vote for it). I would also love to see the complete Warrior. The Arena will sooner or later run out of ideas. We already have a copy or three of each character and that won`t get better. Sure, they have a different background story but that`s all. The sheer number of Prestige Classes bring a new level of color into the Arena never known before. Also the stories of the fights and the gladiators will get more detailed and diverse. On top of that we will see these new classes into action and can test them. Ah and the three new core classes... I want to add a third character for a month now but couldn`t come up with one that hasn`t been seen here before. Now with the CW I have to hold back not to post 20 new characters, all of which I`m eager to test... The feats would be cool, too. Especially Divine might and the other divine feats, since this makes Charisma again worth taking when not a sorcerer. I should read the whole post before I comment then huh?!?! LOL, But I agree, it is getting hard coming uip with new character ideas. |
| fluiddragon12-06-03, 08:36 PM | @ prexx On your new character you have a potion of exp. retreat. You can only get potions listed on the table not 'custom ones' only scrolls and wands are able to contain any spell. (I'd like to have that potion for my monk!) -fd |
| sshuit12-06-03, 08:47 PM | @prexx I was aware that you would likely lose with your default tactics so I tried to make sure not to waste any of your consumables. sshuit |
| MotherBast12-06-03, 08:56 PM | Ok, twice in a row now I have been told that saying "If I win inative" is too metagame to base tactics on.... I was just wondering, If I phrased it, "If my opponit acts first.... or, if he responds to the starting signale before me....", whould this be ok? Of course, I would need to be able to see him take action to know if he responds first, but sometimes it really matters wether you act first or second, and although in the fight your gladiator knows when his turn is, you can't know when you create the tactics.... |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-06-03, 09:04 PM | Originally posted by Caterane Ethendril, eh? :uh-huh: Lets see. Registered in December 2003, one and only one post so far on all the boards which was the character he posted and despite being an absolute newbie to board and arena alike he managed to post a flawless character. Not even using the standard sheet but still having all vital information on it. And no introduction on the comments thread; what manners. Should I go on? Come on, who is it? I guess it`s a moderator who wanted to add a character without moding an additional fight? Pah. This has been a fear of mine for quite some time. I have dilegently tracked new characters/accounts in the arena as they are created. Including typos, language, spelling, grammar. Maybe i'm just paranoid, but i have a list of possible mods with alts based on that. Also the apperance of one gladiator and the disappearance of others. Even the idle were being analyzed. I've been doing this for about 4 months now. I think ever since i joined the arena really. The results are interesting. :D Tellish |
| LLMadCow12-06-03, 09:11 PM | Quote by Tellish_of_Ket This has been a fear of mine for quite some time. I have dilegently tracked new characters/accounts in the arena as they are created. Including typos, language, spelling, grammar. Maybe i'm just paranoid, but i have a list of possible mods with alts based on that. Also the apperance of one gladiator and the disappearance of others. Even the idle were being analyzed. LOL! This is hilarious to hear. I would love for you to share some insight into this. At least with the Senior Mods? I have wondered, but never actually done any comprehensive tracking of such info. In regared to such thoughts, do you think I have any alternate Screen Names? Feel free to e-mail me and share your thoughts... |
| LLMadCow12-06-03, 09:43 PM | In regard to people having more than one screen name in the arena, I have a very strong suspicion that... Lords of the Pit and Moherajikuyx are really the same person - DUN-DUN-DUN! Just my two cents. :cool: |
| sshuit12-06-03, 10:42 PM | In my opinion when you are actually playing AD&D you know if you have won initiative or not. Therefore I don't consider it 'metagaming' at all. My personal pet peeve is players that memorize the MM and then have characters who "know" the DR/type of all their adversaries with no knowledge of the foe before nor the knowledge skill. If you were in one of my fights I would certainly allow win/lose initiative specific tactics, since that's how it works in practice. I would encourage other mods to allow initiative specific tactics also. Originally posted by MotherBast Ok, twice in a row now I have been told that saying "If I win inative" is too metagame to base tactics on.... I was just wondering, If I phrased it, "If my opponit acts first.... or, if he responds to the starting signale before me....", whould this be ok? Of course, I would need to be able to see him take action to know if he responds first, but sometimes it really matters wether you act first or second, and although in the fight your gladiator knows when his turn is, you can't know when you create the tactics.... |
| Prexx12-06-03, 11:17 PM | @fluid - Thanks for the correction on my potions, I didn't catch that rule. I don't really know what else to buy for him. I was thinking about getting a bow. But a masterwork +6 mighty composite longbow costs 1000gp! So I was going to wait till next level to buy it. @sshuit - I think my character did very well considering how tough his opponent was and the fact that he was only using default tactics. If those scorching rays would have hit and gotten lucky on damage, I might have won. And you were absolutely correct in your decision to not use consumable items (especially since Pyre only has 8gp left!). |
| Ethendril12-06-03, 11:25 PM | "Ethendril, eh? Lets see. Registered in December 2003, one and only one post so far on all the boards which was the character he posted and despite being an absolute newbie to board and arena alike he managed to post a flawless character. Not even using the standard sheet but still having all vital information on it. And no introduction on the comments thread; what manners. Should I go on? Come on, who is it? I guess it`s a moderator who wanted to add a character without moding an additional fight? Pah." I guess I'll take this as a complement (what with the "flawless" character sheet, and all). I am, however, completely legit albeit compeltely new (I've been lurking for some time, however). I'm a long-time D&D player, and I just cut and pasted the character sheet, then followed instructions. I see your arguments about the potential for "rigging" the competition. It just won't come from me... Anyway, I look forward to seeing how this works. Nice to meet you all. |
| Prexx12-07-03, 12:44 AM | Two questions. 1) Are we allowed to purchase weapons/armor made of materials other than steed/wood? It seems that it is allowed, but I saw a "no custom items" rule and wanted to clear things up. 2) Would a Barbarian wearing mithril full plate retain his Fast Movement ability? |
| Caterane12-07-03, 05:17 AM | Originally posted by Ethendril I guess I'll take this as a complement (what with the "flawless" character sheet, and all). I am, however, completely legit albeit compeltely new (I've been lurking for some time, however). I'm a long-time D&D player, and I just cut and pasted the character sheet, then followed instructions. I see your arguments about the potential for "rigging" the competition. It just won't come from me... Anyway, I look forward to seeing how this works. Nice to meet you all. I am still not convinced. You found the boards and the first post was the gladiators thread in the optimization board in the Player`s handbook forum in the D&D topic in the Wizards community??? Lurking for some time? No introduction after posting the character? Not even a "Hello"? Ok, I want to introduce some friends of me who live nearby. It`s Batterane, Splatterane and my best pal Flamerane. They are new to the boards - don`t even have an account yet - but expect to have them post new characters soon. Just in the unlikely case I`m really doing you wrong: Sorry and welcome to the boards ...Ethendril. You should learn to quote. |
| Alterlat12-07-03, 05:33 AM | It is known that the number of threads on the net is near-infinite. However, a new poster must have his first post on one particular thread. The probability that he posts on a particular thread is as close to zero as makes no odds, so the average number of new posters on all the boards on the net can be said to be zero. From this it follows that the total number of new posters that arrive on all the boards on the net is also zero, and that any new posters you may meet from time to time are merely the products of a deranged imagination. With apologies to Douglas Adams |
| Caterane12-07-03, 06:08 AM | Alterlat, registered November 2003, 13 posts. Sure. Perhaps we should initiate an inquisition :fight!: |
| sshuit12-07-03, 08:04 AM | 1) I asked about Darkwood/mithril/Adamantine items and was told that they are allowed. I can't remember if you could buy them or if you had to craft them yourself 2) Mithril fullplate is considered medium armor DMG pg284. so should therefore allow the bbn's fast movement ability. Normally heavy, 1 class lighter makes it medium, with a +9000 cost for the mithral +150 masterwork, +1500 base cost. 10650gp AC+8, MaxDex +3, ASF 25%, 25lbs weight, -3 ACP. Crafted cost only 5325gp (cheap!) Nice armor. Esp if you get it enchanted as well ! Originally posted by Prexx Two questions. 1) Are we allowed to purchase weapons/armor made of materials other than steed/wood? It seems that it is allowed, but I saw a "no custom items" rule and wanted to clear things up. 2) Would a Barbarian wearing mithril full plate retain his Fast Movement ability? |
| Alterlat12-07-03, 08:22 AM | The point I was trying to (obliquely) make was that, joke or not, the imposter accusation probably isn't the best way to greet someone new to the Arena. And if anyone is actually concerned by the possibility of mposters, I'd say you don't have too much to worry about. For one thing, there isn't much to be gained by it. All fights are posted, so they wouldn't be able to cheat by modding their own fights, and since just about all the mods seem willing to mod extra fights, I don't see why they would bother with pseudonyms. Besides, imposters on boards tend to be pretty easily identified when they really show up, particularly in a small community like the Core Arena one. On the issue that Prexx & sshuit were discussing, I must say I'd also like it made clear just exactly what types of items can be bought, what has to be crafted, and what can't be had for love or money, since this all still seems a little vague at the moment. |
| Caterane12-07-03, 08:28 AM | Alterlat, my last post was a joke too. But I guess you just want to increase your posting number :P |
| Alterlat12-07-03, 08:50 AM | Actually I take pride in my low post count - I think my best was a board where I had about 4 posts in 5 years. I assumed you were joking, but its hard to be sure - hence the posts. Also, I figured Ethendril might not pick up on the joke if he hadn't read the discussions about sheet layout and errors. Edit: And I couldn't resist the chance to quote Hitchhikers' Guide... |
| Caterane12-07-03, 09:44 AM | Yeah, Hitchhiker`s rules. Read it twice already. Concerning Ethendril, you have to admit that it looks kinda suspicious. I`m always glad when new people join ("THE COLLECTIVE MUST GROW!") but I wasn`t the only one who had that impression. Anyway, I don`t really care if a mod creates a new account or not. Let`s forget about that. But now I have a new theory: Now that I have revealed the truth and the fact that nobody`s around today I fear that I passed my save (interact with illusion) and all moderators and gladiators are being uncovered as by-products of my wishful thinking imagination of a core arena thus having vanished altogether in a cloud of illogicallity. Hello? Somebody`s out there? Mo? Snark? Arena Champion? |
| LLMadCow12-07-03, 10:42 AM | Quote by Caterane Hello? Somebody`s out there? Mo? Snark? Arena Champion? Well, I am not Mo, nor am I Snark, so I guess I must be Arena Champion. Yes, that would be me! What's happening Cat...? |
| Arena Champion12-07-03, 10:59 AM | Well, I am not Mo, nor am I Snark, so I guess I must be Arena Champion. Yes, that would be me! What's happening Cat...? For the record, LLMadCow has made a flase statement, I wouldn't trust him anymore. @Caterane How can I be of service? |
| Arena Champion12-07-03, 10:59 AM | Sorry, double post. Deleted. |
| Jindl12-07-03, 12:02 PM | Originally posted by Arena Champion @Caterane How can I be of service? Alright, who's been impersonating me? :P To comment on a couple of things: 1. Mithral items and such - Special materials items can be purchased as normal. Only custom potions, custom staves, custom rods, and custom wondrous items cannot be purchased and must be crafted. Feel free to buy mithral banded mail, etc, if you want. Mithral Full Plate is medium and works for barb's fast movement (see Iron the Pansy err Panza for example.) 2. Mod's with multiple accounts. Realize that we all can identify each other through syntax, post formats, and email address. If a mod really wants to go through the trouble of living a seperate life, with a seperate email address, and having to be careful not to be found out, just to avoid an extra 1 fight per week to run, then let him. Frankly, its not worth the time to try and have a second account. It would be easier just to run a second fight. 3. CW Arena rules - I remain against incorporating this, as it is not easily available to everyone. It is slanted towards warriors, and without a comparable caster book, it wouldn't be fair to include either. Finally, the arena rules in this are for just that, Arena combat. The purpose of the Core arena is to test builds that are viable in a campaign. That means waiting out rages and buffs, sneaking and hiding are all valid and important tactics. To those characters who are encountering problems with foes fleeing them until buffs/rage wears off, I suggest improving your mobility and your methods of detecting opponents. Of course, this gets easier at higher levels, but the ability to hide encourages ranks in Spot/Listen. The ability to flee and wait, encourages the use of spells like expeditious retreat and long range attacks like bows/fireballs. Invisibility encourages the use of tremorsense summons (like Iron), really good spot/listen (Jindl), or items that can see invisible (somebody is gonna buy a hand of glory soon.) Everything has a counter, even fleeing to wait. And that is what the arena is about. Not impressing crowds. But using tactics and optimized builds to compete in a campaign situation. -Jindl |
| SnarkHunter12-07-03, 12:25 PM | Folks? I learned an important lesson this morning.Don't drink and fight. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2023346#post2023346) ;). |
| Jindl12-07-03, 12:38 PM | Re: Candy vs Johan Summon spells have a 1 round casting time. That means that the summoned creatures don't appear until after your opponent goes again. This mistake occurred several times in this fight and put Candy at a distinct disadvantage. @Prexx - Krakskul can't take Improved Trip without the prereq Combat Expertise, and that requires an Int of 13. -Jindl |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-07-03, 01:12 PM | ....for everyone else but me. :D Late last night Jindl sent two transport trucks to kill me. Unfortunately they didn't follow the tactics properly and i walked away without a scratch. :rofl: (just kidding bud) Seriously though, i got broad-sided by two transports, my truck is completely crushed, smashed, torn to bits, yet i walked away with nothing more than stiff muscles and bones from absorbing the shock. I'm not in the greatest moods and moving right now is a very slow and painful process. I didn't add any flavor to anything as i'm keeping typing to a minimum. Mara has no default tactics and did not send me tactics. Therefore, instead of playing her myself and thus 'thinking' for other characters, Mara is not considered helpless but will just stand there until Bilo eventually wins. All typing will be kept to a minimum. Tellish |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-07-03, 01:59 PM | It actually took 17 rds for Bruno and Gorgous George to finish of a standing still Mara. Nothing to read, just black and white text with rolls. Tellish |
| sshuit12-07-03, 02:30 PM | Hope you're OK Tellish. Damn those Transport trucks and their +25 Slam attacks. I see you made your Fortitude save though. Thanks for getting the fight done on time all the same! Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket ....for everyone else but me. :D Late last night Jindl sent two transport trucks to kill me. Unfortunately they didn't follow the tactics properly and i walked away without a scratch. :rofl: (just kidding bud) Tellish |
| Ethendril12-07-03, 02:43 PM | Quote: "I am still not convinced. You found the boards and the first post was the gladiators thread in the optimization board in the Player`s handbook forum in the D&D topic in the Wizards community??? Lurking for some time? No introduction after posting the character? Not even a "Hello"? Ok, I want to introduce some friends of me who live nearby. It`s Batterane, Splatterane and my best pal Flamerane. They are new to the boards - don`t even have an account yet - but expect to have them post new characters soon. Just in the unlikely case I`m really doing you wrong: Sorry and welcome to the boards ...Ethendril. You should learn to quote." (Sorry, but I still don't know how to quote...it may be because I'm NEW!) Well, you sure know how to make a newbie feel welcome. I guess I'll put together a D&D resume and a vitae showing relevant gaming experience before I try to show up on these boards again. I am either an imposter, or I am a true newbie to the game and forum (who didn't know there was an introduction thread and also had no post count) who happened to know how to roll up a character after years of D&D experience. You pick. If I am an imposter, there's not really much you can to about it, because it would be difficult to prove. If I am a newbie, you are alienating me with your allegations of cheating. I'm not sure what else I can do to prove myself. Regardless...hello to everyone. Ethendril |
| MotherBast12-07-03, 03:20 PM | Ok, I hate seeming like an idiot, but I was wondering why stunning fist dosen't prevent your opponit's next action.... In every game I have ever played since third edition, every player I have known has run stunning fist the same way. The guy who gets stuned is stuned untill just before the monk's next go, meaning he becomes unstuned right before the monk acts again. Nothing in the stunning fist feat says anything about changing initative count, however, and the stun effect itself also dosen't affect iniative, or if it does, it dosen't mention it in the DMG. So, it seems in a one on one contest, if the monk, (acting on init. count 15 for example), stuns an opponit, (acting on init 12), when init 12 rolls around, the opponit simply "can't take any actions" as it says in the feat, misses his turn, and then it cycles to the Monk's count again. Just before the monk's count, the opponit becomes unstuned, so is able to properly defend himself again, but can't act, as its not his initative. I have never seen anyone run stunning fist reseting the inatiative counts, and I was just wondering why it has been ran that way the last couple of fights Brackin has had. Do spells with stunning effects also reset initative counts? Like Sound Burst. It lasts one round. A spell with round duration always ends on the init count it begain on, so would, say, 3 goblins that were stuned with sound burst all act on the same init as the bard who cast it after it runs off? Is this one of those issues that has been clarified in the SRD? A lot of things are writen much simpler there. Perhaps I'll find that link and check this out. I will edit if I learn anything. |
| barrel_master12-07-03, 03:39 PM | Originally posted by Ethendril Quote: "I am still not convinced. You found the boards and the first post was the gladiators thread in the optimization board in the Player`s handbook forum in the D&D topic in the Wizards community??? Lurking for some time? No introduction after posting the character? Not even a "Hello"? Ok, I want to introduce some friends of me who live nearby. It`s Batterane, Splatterane and my best pal Flamerane. They are new to the boards - don`t even have an account yet - but expect to have them post new characters soon. Just in the unlikely case I`m really doing you wrong: Sorry and welcome to the boards ...Ethendril. You should learn to quote." (Sorry, but I still don't know how to quote...it may be because I'm NEW!) Well, you sure know how to make a newbie feel welcome. I guess I'll put together a D&D resume and a vitae showing relevant gaming experience before I try to show up on these boards again. I am either an imposter, or I am a true newbie to the game and forum (who didn't know there was an introduction thread and also had no post count) who happened to know how to roll up a character after years of D&D experience. You pick. If I am an imposter, there's not really much you can to about it, because it would be difficult to prove. If I am a newbie, you are alienating me with your allegations of cheating. I'm not sure what else I can do to prove myself. Regardless...hello to everyone. Ethendril Welcome then. |
| barrel_master12-07-03, 03:45 PM | I'm curious, how long does it take most of you to run fights? Also, when you run your fights do you find that you're constantly refering to references or are you just running the rules from memory? |
| MotherBast12-07-03, 03:50 PM | It takes me about 4 hours total per fight, counting the actual posting. As far as refrences, I keep all 3 of my core books with me and open at all times when running the fights. One of the reasons I joined this thread was because I wasn't too familure with the 3.5 rules, and wanted to improve. I have learned a great deal since joining the thread. A lot of stuff I do run from memory though, and sometimes I find I am mistaken about something I "knew", like that casters add there own Int mod to scrolls they create. I was sure that was the case, but have learned it is incorrect since joining this board. There are probably other things, but I can't think of any at the moment. |
| Caterane12-07-03, 03:53 PM | @Ethendril: Ok, apologies. After all, you have 3 posts now :D Seriously, it was really nothing personal. I`m always glad when new people show up so here`s my --> welcome to the arena. But know this: Ebelin will hammer you in the ground :b: |
| Caterane12-07-03, 04:04 PM | @Snark: *loooooooooooooooooooooooolololol* @Tellish: :uh-huh: Huh????? :confused: :confused: :confused: Didn`t you forget something? Ever heard of default tactics? But hope you feel better soon. |
| MotherBast12-07-03, 04:16 PM | Well, Mara's defalt tactics are as follows... "I will post them soon." Not soon enough I would think..... I hate to see a fight between two characters at level 7 handled this way, though. Its quite a letdown. At that level the gladiators have all been around for a while and are pretty well known. I'm not saying you should have went out of your way Tellish, I have been in several car accidents, and I know how you feel. Perhaps you could have asked someone else to take the fight, though. I know you wanted to avoid "thinking for" Mara, after the incident last week, but I just hate to see a level 7 character killed without moving. It was different for those low levels who's poster was deleting or retiring the character, but Mara? I don't know.... I wasen't the one given the fight though, and I guess its not my place to comment, as it really has nothing to do with me at all. I was just looking forward to that one. On another note, I do hope you feel better soon. |
| Galamdring12-07-03, 05:10 PM | I am sorry... I had no time whatsoever to this week's game... And since i don't have default tactics, you did the right thing Tellish |
| barrel_master12-07-03, 05:47 PM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket ....for everyone else but me. :D Late last night Jindl sent two transport trucks to kill me. Unfortunately they didn't follow the tactics properly and i walked away without a scratch. :rofl: (just kidding bud) Seriously though, i got broad-sided by two transports, my truck is completely crushed, smashed, torn to bits, yet i walked away with nothing more than stiff muscles and bones from absorbing the shock. I'm not in the greatest moods and moving right now is a very slow and painful process. I didn't add any flavor to anything as i'm keeping typing to a minimum. Mara has no default tactics and did not send me tactics. Therefore, instead of playing her myself and thus 'thinking' for other characters, Mara is not considered helpless but will just stand there until Bilo eventually wins. All typing will be kept to a minimum. Tellish Holy ****! I'm glad you're okay and in all honesty I can't blame you for the fights. Real life should always take precidence. In the future, if something like this happens again to any of the mods, don't hesitate to ask someone else on the board to run the fight. I'm sure someone else will be willing to run it. |
| SnarkHunter12-07-03, 05:56 PM | @Mother: Differen't rules interpretation indeed. This is the way I've run for the past few years and have always assumed its the way it should be run. For one being able to continously juggle with stunning fists is a bit much. I thought automaticly delaying someones intiative till that point a tad more sensible. I hope you enjoyed the fight anyway. Yeah 3-4 hours sounds about right. Longer if there's rules questions or hiding tactics. |
| barrel_master12-07-03, 05:56 PM | On another note... concerning the whole 'If I win init' thing... I basicly run it like this... if it's obvious to your char that the other guy has gone first (for example, you see them running or you hear them) then I'll use the 'If I loose init path'. Otherwise, if you don't see or hear them then I use the 'If I win init' path. |
| fluiddragon12-07-03, 06:17 PM | About the stunning fist thing. The sage (back in 3.0) stated that the stun lasts 1 round. If you stun at initiative count 13 it lasts to the next round and ends just before you get to act. The stunned person loses an action, it has no effect on initiave. Life in the arena is different than a campaign, you may not want to use all your stunns against 1 opponent in a game but in the arena you should. So in this aspect it makes the stun seem more powerfull. But no place does it say it changes your initiative order. -fd |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-07-03, 07:04 PM | I wanna point out also, that although stunned, you are not helpless. Which means you can make opposed rolls and defend yourself as needed. You simply don't take any actions of your own, until one full round has gone by. You act on your own initiative when the stun wears off. init: a=13 b=12 A stuns B. B misses this round as he is stunned. B cannot act, but is able to defend himself and make spot checks etc... as needed by the circumstance. Next round, A acts. B is no loner stunned. scenario 2 init a=13 b=12 A stuns B. B misses this round as he is stunned. B cannot act, but is able to defend himself and make spot checks etc... as needed by the circumstance (same as above), but B has pets in play and they are giving A some trouble. A on his next initiative delays for 5 counts. B, will be come unstunned and act in his initiative count as normal. It doesn't matter that A delayed, because stun can't last more than one full round. Tellish |
| Magagumo12-07-03, 07:15 PM | Glad to hear you're alright, Tellish, I'm just about to read the fight. 17 rounds, eh? Ah.. *sweat* and I was hoping the PK and Bestow Curses would make it quick ;) Welcome to Ethendril, and I wanted to announce that Kelek and Gage's fight will be run momentraily, hopefulyl only taking me three hours :-P. I keep the books by my side, and generally only reference them for spells and combat manuevers (grapple, charge, etc.) occasionlly I don't read a spell, but that has lead to mistakes in my moderating carerr, so I generally read over any unknown spell listed in the combatants tactics before running the fight. |
| fluiddragon12-07-03, 07:32 PM | @ ToK I'm alittle confused on the "can not act" and what you deem as helpless. I'm not trying to start a fight merely understand the rules better. from the SRD Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks gets no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets. As a full-round action, an enemy can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe. An enemy can also use a bow or crossbow, provided he is adjacent to the target. The attacker automatically hits and scores a critical hit. (A rogue also gets her sneak attack damage bonus against a helpless foe when delivering a coup de grace.) If the defender survives, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity. Creatures that are immune to critical hits do not take critical damage, nor do they need to make Fortitude saves to avoid being killed by a coup de grace. and on stunned Stunned: A stunned creature drops everything held, can’t take actions, takes a –2 penalty to AC, and loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). I see "can't take actions" as meaning if you have to roll for it or it is listed on the actions table (move eq, standard, even free) that you cannot do it which means you can't make a spot check, or oppose a grapple, or shout to a companion; which are all examples of actions. The differenced between helpless and stunned is this: Stunned = no dex bonus to ac and -2 penalty Helpless = 0 dex score (-5 ac) melee attackers get +4 hit Stunned = drops items Helpless = may or may not retain items depending upon what causes the contition. Stunned = rogues can sneak attack Helpless = rogues can sneak attack Stunned = Is not subject to a CdG Helpless = Is subject to CdG Stunned = Cannot take any action Helpless = Maybe able to take mental actions (psionics, still/silent/encshew materials spells, mental control etc) Now it is easy to see than a stunned character is much better off than a helpless character but not by much. I don't see where you can make any kind of roll or take any kind of action. You stager about a bit and drop what you are holding, but you cannot do anything till the stun wears off, your a limp noodle basically. So I am confused where you say you can make spot checks which is an action, or an opposed roll as you cannot take any actions. I'm also curious as to what the other mods think. What say you?!? The biggest difference is the hit chance and the subjegation to a CdG. Other than that they are pretty much the same. Though some causes of helplessness like a held person still can take actions where a stunned person cannot. edit: Sorry about your accident, hope you feel better soon! |
| Magagumo12-07-03, 07:45 PM | I think Snark was referencing reflexive Spot checks, but I've never seen it come up in my own games. I just wanted to note some things about Mara fight (nothing huge, just stuff I noticed so all Mods can take note and keep them in mind for future fights) 1. Mara shows a Will Save 5 at one point (Vs. the First Bestow Curse), and failed the save (giving her a -4 to all her saves skills, etc.) Then, she is shown as making ths second save using a +5 (which would have been a +1 with the curse). 2. When Phantasmal Killer is cast on Mara, she makes a sngle Will save at +7, but if she was cursed and not raging, it would still be a +1 and would have affected her. 3. Also, I should note that stating that players do not know if there spells work or not is a little unfair. After all, one generally knows if an opponent is under your control (Will), dodged the fireball (Rex), or was unaffected by the poison (Fort). Thusly, to say that the wizard can't tell if a curse worked, is making it diifcult for them to predict things in their tactics. You'd think a person who fails a Bestow Curse Will save is going to stumble back or something, and the book makes no mention of needing to make a spellcraft check to identify if one's spells worked. A fighter know's when his sword hits, after all ;) 4. I liked how George's held action went off immeditely, but why wouldn't have Bruno then seen her on the second round while flying (20' in air, and she isn't hiding). ... Looking again, I see that this was a cute way of reflecting my tactics of having George stay near me and sending him off 4th round. Nice ;) After than that, Tellish, it looked fine to me. Obviously, the stuff I mentioned had little bearing on this fight, but I do think that hiding the effects of our spells from us spellcasters is rather unfair. Feel Better! :) |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-07-03, 07:49 PM | Originally posted by MotherBast Well, Mara's defalt tactics are as follows... "I will post them soon." Not soon enough I would think..... I hate to see a fight between two characters at level 7 handled this way, though. Its quite a letdown. At that level the gladiators have all been around for a while and are pretty well known. I'm not saying you should have went out of your way Tellish, I have been in several car accidents, and I know how you feel. Perhaps you could have asked someone else to take the fight, though. I know you wanted to avoid "thinking for" Mara, after the incident last week, but I just hate to see a level 7 character killed without moving. It was different for those low levels who's poster was deleting or retiring the character, but Mara? I don't know.... I wasen't the one given the fight though, and I guess its not my place to comment, as it really has nothing to do with me at all. I was just looking forward to that one. On another note, I do hope you feel better soon. Well, as a veteran gladiator Galamdring definately knows the posting times for tactics. We are fast approaching on Monday, the point at which i will get an error check for being late because i didn't run the fight. I'm gonna be in/out of the hospital all week for physiotherapy so time after monday is not a luxury i'm gonna have this week. What would have been a crime is for me to run Mara on my own, knowing full well what Bruno's tactics were. Now do you think that would be fair to Mag? Definately not. I had no choice, but to run my remaining fights out. Believe me, i was looking forward to a full pitched battle. I did do the fight on my own, as i typed in her inevitable death, and Mara did easily win in 12 rds. But that's not official. She killed George in three hits and bruno with two arrow shots(one round). One was a max dmg enlarged arrows, and the second arrow was a crit enlarged arrow(not max, but about average). @Galamdring, sorry for the loss, thx for the support. @all: it feels good t be alive! (too bad for ya'll i'll still be moderating fights. :D) Tellish |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-07-03, 08:01 PM | Originally posted by Magagumo 1. Mara shows a Will Save 5 at one point (Vs. the First Bestow Curse), and failed the save (giving her a -4 to all her saves skills, etc.) Then, she is shown as making ths second save using a +5 (which would have been a +1 with the curse). 2. When Phantasmal Killer is cast on Mara, she makes a sngle Will save at +7, but if she was cursed and not raging, it would still be a +1 and would have affected her. That's my fault. I have to admit, i wasn't the most attentive when there were no tactics for Mara and just humdrummed it along. My error there all the way. 3. Also, I should note that stating that players do not know if there spells work or not is a little unfair. After all, one generally knows if an opponent is under your control (Will), dodged the fireball (Rex), or was unaffected by the poison (Fort). Thusly, to say that the wizard can't tell if a curse worked, is making it diifcult for them to predict things in their tactics. You'd think a person who fails a Bestow Curse Will save is going to stumble back or something, and the book makes no mention of needing to make a spellcraft check to identify if one's spells worked. A fighter know's when his sword hits, after all ;) I agree. I was simply following precedent from other mods and it seems like it makes sense. Obviously, the very visual effects are automatic. I changed my mind during the course of the fight, and allowed you to know that she had been cursed. I just forgot to delete the passage. Come to think of it, i forgot all about the red ink entirely. 4. I liked how George's held action went off immeditely, but why wouldn't have Bruno then seen her on the second round while flying (20' in air, and she isn't hiding). ... Looking again, I see that this was a cute way of reflecting my tactics of having George stay near me and sending him off 4th round. Nice ;) I was just trying to be silly with George. You said he was ready to strike when he sees Mara. Because he's beside you and sees Mara, i had him swing in mid air, because he DOES see her but he doesn't have 205' reach just yet and is thus unable to effectively melee her. :D It's flavour text more than anything. You didn't say anything about George moving up to her on his own time and waiting for the rounds to count down until you moved up to Mara for George to attack. Obviously you didn't anticipate Mara standing still. Bruno couldn't see her because of the pillar. The pillar goes up to the ceiling 100' above correct? That's why u didn't see her. After than that, Tellish, it looked fine to me. Obviously, the stuff I mentioned had little bearing on this fight, but I do think that hiding the effects of our spells from us spellcasters is rather unfair. Feel Better! :) I agree. @Fluid. I was talking about reactionary spot checks. It's not an action per se. It's something that they freely do. I think the biggest distinction is that they can defend themselves. Therefore anything that requires defense (opposed grapples, being hit, saving throws), they can accomplish. I see your point though about spot/listen. Anyone else with input? Tellish |
| fluiddragon12-07-03, 08:13 PM | I'm running Stinky vs Carane right now. That bad flu hit my house yesterday, (wife was barfing at work and i had to pick her up, now the kids look like they are going to come down with it. I'm immune I never get sick.) So I didn't get to run the fights yesterday. I'll run Bilo vs Harvester tomorow. Sorry for the unexpected delay. -fd |
| fluiddragon12-07-03, 08:26 PM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket @Fluid. I was talking about reactionary spot checks. It's not an action per se. It's something that they freely do. I think the biggest distinction is that they can defend themselves. Therefore anything that requires defense (opposed grapples, being hit, saving throws), they can accomplish. I see your point though about spot/listen. Anyone else with input? Tellish [/B] This is where I'm confused. A free action is still an action and you can't take any actions if stunned, not even mental. You still do have some defense as in your opponet does't get +4 to hit you and your dex is not 0, but making an opposed roll is still an action of sorts. I'm looking for a rules quote. At this point it seems like the rules favor my case unless an opposed grapple check for instance is not considered to be anykind of action what so ever. I would just like some clarification either way so I do it right. As you cannot even shout (free action) How can you oppose a grapple? If they were attacking you, you lose your dex and have -2 to ac. Where an opposed grapple check is different and monks rule in this area. My reasoning is if the opponent was helpless the monk would not need to initiate an opposed grapple because he could just CdG. Where if the opponent is stunned he can't respond to the grapple roll, but he is not subject to a CdG which is better you take some damage which might kill you but is not as bad as a CdG. It still stinks being stunned but not as bad as helpless. |
| Jindl12-07-03, 08:51 PM | Originally posted by fluiddragon Stunned = Is not subject to a CdG Helpless = Is subject to CdG Now where have I seen that before....hrmm. Must've been something a little cat told me. My opinion on this is that stunned means you cannot take actions on your turn in the initiative. Helpless means you cannot resist actions that other people take on their turns. Resisting a grapple when its not your turn is something you can do when stunned, because you are not taking an action, your opponent is. Same thing with reflexive spot/listen checks, and saving throws. -Jindl |
| Jindl12-07-03, 08:54 PM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket Well, as a veteran gladiator Galamdring definately knows the posting times for tactics. We are fast approaching on Monday, the point at which i will get an error check for being late because i didn't run the fight. I'm gonna be in/out of the hospital all week for physiotherapy so time after monday is not a luxury i'm gonna have this week. What would have been a crime is for me to run Mara on my own, knowing full well what Bruno's tactics were. Now do you think that would be fair to Mag? Definately not. I had no choice, but to run my remaining fights out. Believe me, i was looking forward to a full pitched battle. I did do the fight on my own, as i typed in her inevitable death, and Mara did easily win in 12 rds. But that's not official. She killed George in three hits and bruno with two arrow shots(one round). One was a max dmg enlarged arrows, and the second arrow was a crit enlarged arrow(not max, but about average). @Galamdring, sorry for the loss, thx for the support. @all: it feels good t be alive! (too bad for ya'll i'll still be moderating fights. :D) Tellish Indeed Tellish, I think you did the right thing. Sorry about the trucks, btw. They were supposed to go after Moherajikuyx (for changing prepared spells...) -Jindl ;) |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-07-03, 09:03 PM | ...is Jindl's....not mine. :( Here ya go my friend. Straight from Cust. Service R&D. If the creature is in flight, it cannot be tripped. Thanks! **Please quote this e-mail in any reply.** **************************************** ************************** Darrin Wizards of the Coast - Customer Service Website: http://www.wizards.com Game Support Phone: 1-800-324-6496 Monday through Friday, 9 AM - 7 PM PST Corporate Phone: (425) 226-6500 **************************************** ************************** -----Original Message----- From: Ray Lendt [mailto:raymondlendt@hotmail.com] Sent: Tue 12/2/2003 10:13 PM To: Wizards Customer Service Cc: Subject: Tripping a flyer Simply put, can you trip a flyer? If so, where can i find a support to my arguement in the core rule books? Thank you for your time in answering my question, Ray Lendt My humblest, deepest apolagies Jindl. :bow: Just know that nothing was intentional. I simply proceeded way to fast on that fight and it cost you a very good character. Tellish |
| fluiddragon12-07-03, 09:29 PM | Thanks Jindl, Tellish You were right after all :bow: |
| MotherBast12-07-03, 09:34 PM | I wouldn't trust anything from R&D. Most of those guys/gals just say what they think makes sense, and don't really do very much in the way of rules resurch. I actually remember back during the Knockdown/Cleave discussion, one R&D guy was quoted as saying it worked, and another was quoted as saying it didn't, and they had been asked withen a single day of one another...... I wouldn't concider anything that comes from them official. Concerning Stunning, I thought I had the right idea about it. Concerning actions, I agree with Fluid that anything that could be labled "an action", even a free one, can't be done. But, I belive the PHB says you may only take even free actions on your own initative, so anything your required to do on another init count wouldn't be concidered an action.... again, kinda a strech in logic. I just looked it up, and it says you may preform free actions while preforming any other type of action. So that would restrict free actions to your own Init count. Anyting not on your init count would be..... humm.... a REaction maybe? It dosen't seem as though it would prevent you from making reactive spot/listen checks, or opposed grapple rolls. Kinda makes sense actually, if you could still dodge a sword or a fireball, you could still try to avoid an arm bar, though it seems the stunned fighter should take a penalty, it dosen't apear as though he would. Just my thoughts on the matter. And yes, in a one on one fight, stuns are match winners. A free round for every sucessful stun. Thats why I always put in my tactics to make sure my stuns are attempted, because if a single stun hits, then the match swings drastacly to my favor. 7 stuns a fight now..... Deadly. |
| cellardweller12-07-03, 09:40 PM | [QUOTE]Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket Straight from Cust. Service R&D. Why would we start taking their word for it now, it's not like they've ever been correct before? I do notice that they conveniently ignored your request for supporting references. |
| Sir Cridion12-07-03, 10:00 PM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket ....for everyone else but me. :D Late last night Jindl sent two transport trucks to kill me. Unfortunately they didn't follow the tactics properly and i walked away without a scratch. :rofl: (just kidding bud) Seriously though, i got broad-sided by two transports, my truck is completely crushed, smashed, torn to bits, yet i walked away with nothing more than stiff muscles and bones from absorbing the shock. Tellish Hello, I know I don't post too much, but... @Tellish: Man, that sucks. I hope you feel better soon. @Ethendril: Hello. Nice to have another paladin running around. |
| Magagumo12-07-03, 11:44 PM | 3 hits?? Lordy, I suppose she just went straight for us then.. cause I know I had plans to disrupt her on the way to George and I ;) Ah well, seeing is beliveing, and I'm honestly glad I didn't. Gage and Kelek fight is up, I do hope it was to your relative satisfaction, as this was a messy fight with a great deal of nasty bits. Hope you enjoy reading, cause I declare this my penance for only one fight this week. Now, on to Bruno's upgrade and the acquiring of Turkish... |
| Jindl12-08-03, 12:04 AM | @Tellish - no problem. its old news now anyway. besides, if tomah was still here therd be no room for Iku Rex. @fluid - your welcome. @Magagumo - you mean Kelek didn't get a single sneak attack in the entire fight? Really? Wow. -Jindl |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-08-03, 12:24 AM | Originally posted by Jindl @Magagumo - you mean Kelek didn't get a single sneak attack in the entire fight? Really? Wow. -Jindl I was about to say the same thing. I saw at least two instances where i could have moved 30' and scorching ray him, but didn't. Oh well. C'est la vie. Also, did you take into account the 20% miss chance for the obscuring? I didn't see any of the rolls. Also, i never made any h/ms checks to get ot the edge of the mist sneakily to snipe him. Just wondering why? He just always knew exactly where i was. I knew i had it really tough. I forgot to buy dispell scrolls and a fly scroll. I had no way to counter his delay poison, and only relied on initiative to try to get my first poison shot in on him. I did have a second oil of magic weapon though, i could have applied that after the first one ran out. Also, i CAN use scrolls of protections. I have 9 ranks of use magical device. But THANK GOD that wasn't an issue. Overall, i'm not dissappointed. Gage was far more prepared for this fight than i was. I didn't make any new purchases and just assumed i had the proper kit on me to deal with him. I was obviously wrong. Good win Gage. |
| Magagumo12-08-03, 12:32 AM | Actually, I'm not sure exactly when you could have moved within 30'.. actually, I recall one time (ran it) then mistakenly realized that you were 60' away at the time. Foolishly, I neglected to think to stop your "Disrupt Style" of play, and I do aplogize for that. As for the other time, he was generally invisible, and again, I believe I was caught up in the disrupt action style. As for the mist, he actually was not able to see you at all (total concealment), and I was having you leave the mist entirely (thus why he was flatfooted and made shock attack after you fired) and next round you retreated into the mist and weren't viewable at all. This way, you didn't have miss chance either, since your time was limited (Oil of MW was running out) so you needed to make every shot count. He could have dropped the 40' to enter the mist, but I interepreted as chancing him being melee attacked. So, you see, the mist worked incredibly well for you, but as you said, he was just a little better prepared. Ah, as for prot scrolls, please mention that to your moderator, I never would have thought to use the skill to activate them (wondered why you had put ranks in it). |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-08-03, 12:44 AM | @ Mag: If i'm at the edge of the mist, i still benefit from 20% concealment. No matter, you're right. He was far better prepared. And don't worry Mag, you did a super job running it. @Prexx: The stunning changed from a 4 round stun to a 5 round stun? Just curious. But either way, i come out of it acting ahead of Cliod because my initiative is higher and would have had a chance to hit her. Also, i didn't notice any SR checks for the MM's. **EDIT** When it ends in round 10 (if it's 4rds), i still go on my initiative order, which means before Cliod. Just in case, i mis-worded what i was trying to say. It's possible you forgot about the SR. No biggy. It's the first time we see a pc with SR in the arena so i might get hosed a couple of times before ppl remember consistantly. No biggies. I'm fully aware that Nevrlokagyft is gonna have a hard time winning because he's tremendously out lvl'd by his opponents. I'm just cursing myself for not sticking to the disrupting tactics throughout the entire fight. I wasn't planning on missing so much. Gosh! Again, i learn from my tactical mistakes and what could have been easy prey, escapes from my grasp. So for my next challenge. Nevrlokagyft chlgs Voliana *EDIT* my challenge is posted on the Roleplay thread Tellish |
| sshuit12-08-03, 02:21 AM | So for my next challenge. Nevrlokagyft chlgs Voliana Tellish [/B] Challenge accepted. It will be a pleasure to match my stealth against your strength. I look forward to a bloody finish. Voliana :b: |
| Moherajikuyx12-08-03, 07:20 AM | Back from a weekend of GGGGGHHHHHddd... I got my girlfriend back :D But now let's get back to what is really fun! Character diversity - to the moment, only 1 character uses Jindl's ECL 3 rule: I believe there's no that need for diversity, thus. win initiative - I guess we've to vote on this. Polls open, new players take a look (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=73069)! Ethendril - welcome among the strange ones... Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket This has been a fear of mine for quite some time. I have dilegently tracked new characters/accounts in the arena as they are created. Including typos, language, spelling, grammar. Maybe i'm just paranoid, but i have a list of possible mods with alts based on that. Also the apperance of one gladiator and the disappearance of others. Even the idle were being analyzed. I've been doing this for about 4 months now. I think ever since i joined the arena really. The results are interesting. :D Tellish Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket I got spun around and broadsided by two transports and i just got released from hospital. :( Egad that's awful, I had a pair of accidents with my guzzi bike but never something that bad! Still... Can you make the picture we've got of you... A big muscle-master truckdriver bandaged like a mummy and with the passion of listing virtual identities grammar errors to find analogies.....................! :behold: Really glad you're ok! Originally posted by Prexx a masterwork +6 mighty composite longbow costs 1000gp! Actually it doesn't exist. The comp. bows description says that there's a maximum mighty bonus, sadly it is unspecified in the equipment section, luckily it is specified in the magic items section and it is the usual +2 short +4 long. barrel - I run fights at work usually :D so I have nothing but the SRD. That's the reason I prefer SRD based rules, nothing personal against the books. Originally posted by fluiddragon I see "can't take actions" as meaning if you have to roll for it or it is listed on the actions table (move eq, standard, even free) that you cannot do it which means you can't make a spot check, or oppose a grapple, or shout to a companion; which are all examples of actions. Only error I think I see is the opposing to a grapple: it's not an action, so it's possible. I think. Actions inpossible, but reactions possible. Finally, I'll shout to the world, R&D sucks and I wouldn't consider them core as I wouldn't with Dragon! There are many too numerous examples for this. |
| fluiddragon12-08-03, 08:54 AM | fight (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2029838#post2029838) Is posted both characters have some red tape so please check it and adjust your sheets accordingly. Bilo vs Harvester will come tonight. @ Tellish good macth I think you gave Gage a run for his money @ Mag I didn't go over the the fight with a fine tooth comb but good job with a difficult fight I know my tactics were alittle confusing as I didn't have the time to do a good job with them, it was a complicated match and you ran it good i think. Course I'm biased. But I didn't see any glaring errors. I liked the spell descritions you used, fits the character well. |
| Alathar Vierce12-08-03, 09:09 AM | Will edit Init. now, it was a remnant of the old +4 dex racial illusion. When I level Carane up I'll correct.. |
| Prexx12-08-03, 10:22 AM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket @Prexx: The stunning changed from a 4 round stun to a 5 round stun? Just curious. But either way, i come out of it acting ahead of Cliod because my initiative is higher and would have had a chance to hit her. Also, i didn't notice any SR checks for the MM's. **EDIT** When it ends in round 10 (if it's 4rds), i still go on my initiative order, which means before Cliod. Just in case, i mis-worded what i was trying to say. I rolled 1d4 and rolled a 4. The effect of color spray against a 3 hd creature is blinded and stunned for 1d4 rounds, then stunned for 1 round after that (that is why it shows up as blinded 1/4, stunned 1/5). I actually did make an error on the color spray. I mistakenly qualified your character as having 3 hit dice, when he actually has 1. the effect against your character would have been unconcious, blinded, and stunned, for 2d4 rounds, then blinded and stunned for 1d4 rounds, then stunned for 1 round. Just realized that error now, but since it was in the favor of the loser, it doesn't really influence the outcome. |
| Jindl12-08-03, 10:23 AM | Re: Stinky vs Carane @Fluid - I'm a little confused about what happened when Stinky hit the elf with a natural 20 on his readied bow shot. Did it crit him? Was the damage enough to bypass the DR 10/magic from protection vs arrows? Did that cause a concentration check? The only reason I ask is, the bow shot would do 3d6+6 (point blank shot). A good roll could ruin Carane's day. Just wondering... EDIT: **************************** @Mo - Please note that Tomar vs Paul Hector was posted. A very interesting read, MotherBast did a good job. You are even mentioned in it, Mo. -Jindl |
| cellardweller12-08-03, 10:47 AM | Roger vs Spike If only all fights could be this simple (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2030380#post2030380) |
| cellardweller12-08-03, 10:57 AM | I wanted test out an assassin->dragon disciple build, but it is not doable with pure core rules, how would people feel about looking the other way while I slip the education feat in? |
| Jindl12-08-03, 11:09 AM | Hrmm - Wood Elf, Ranger 2/Monk 3/Assassin ? / Dragon Disciple ? Only cc skill is disguise, easily do-able without non-core feats. Would be really good at grappling thanks to the monk levels + dragon disciple str boosts. Also can do the stun+sneak attack flurry of claws!! Ranger grants all martial weapons, ranger wands, and rapid shot (to use when sneak attacking). Or - Wild Elf, Rogue 1 / Sor 4 / Dragon Disciple ? / Assassin ? Only CC on 4 points of Hide / Move Silently (start as Rogue) and you'll have a lot of scorching rays! Or - Gnome, Bard 4 / Rogue 1 / Assassin ? / Dragon Disciple ? No cc skills!! Improved Feint and Sneak attack. Dragon Disciple boosts both spellcasting stats (Int + Cha). ***************************** I'm glad to see someone trying to use the dragon disciple. It's a good prestige class especially for builds that need Str. But, I don't think we should start using non-Core feats. Good Luck!! -Jindl |
| LLMadCow12-08-03, 11:38 AM | Quote by Prexx and Tellish_of_Ket Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- @Prexx: The stunning changed from a 4 round stun to a 5 round stun? Just curious. But either way, i come out of it acting ahead of Cliod because my initiative is higher and would have had a chance to hit her. Also, i didn't notice any SR checks for the MM's. **EDIT** When it ends in round 10 (if it's 4rds), i still go on my initiative order, which means before Cliod. Just in case, i mis-worded what i was trying to say. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I rolled 1d4 and rolled a 4. The effect of color spray against a 3 hd creature is blinded and stunned for 1d4 rounds, then stunned for 1 round after that (that is why it shows up as blinded 1/4, stunned 1/5). I actually did make an error on the color spray. I mistakenly qualified your character as having 3 hit dice, when he actually has 1. the effect against your character would have been unconcious, blinded, and stunned, for 2d4 rounds, then blinded and stunned for 1d4 rounds, then stunned for 1 round. Just realized that error now, but since it was in the favor of the loser, it doesn't really influence the outcome. Had Nevr been Unconcious, he would have been in manacles when he woke up, if he woke up at all. @Prexx - I am not sure what happened, but Cliodhna had a hide of +9, or +19 with Elixir of Hide, and I think Nerv should have failed some of his Spot checks to see her. You kept rolling as if she had a +3, or +13 respectivly. Quote by Tellish_of_Ket Again, i learn from my tactical mistakes and what could have been easy prey, escapes from my grasp. Easy prey? Cliodhna puts up a solid fight, and as you can see, she won despite a few errors against her. If nothing else Nevr would have lost a little sooner... |
| Alathar Vierce12-08-03, 11:41 AM | Problem with getting to DD is being effective till the point you get most benefits from DD heh :) |
| Ethendril12-08-03, 12:20 PM | Caterane said "But know this: Ebelin will hammer you in the ground." @ Caterane: In that case, here's my default tactics vs. Ebelin: 1. Hide. 2. Once found, assume the fetal position. 3. Don't use any consumable items. 4. Pray #1 doesn't fail. ;) @ Sir Cridion: Thanks for the welcome, and the paladins must stick together. @ everyone else...thanks for the welcome. Also, what day of the week are matchups set? Ethendril |
| Jindl12-08-03, 12:24 PM | Originally posted by Ethendril Caterane said "But know this: Ebelin will hammer you in the ground." @ Caterane: In that case, here's my default tactics vs. Ebelin: 1. Hide. 2. Once found, assume the fetal position. 3. Don't use any consumable items. 4. Pray #1 doesn't occur. ;) @ Sir Cridion: Thanks for the welcome, and the paladins must stick together. @ everyone else...thanks for the welcome. Also, what day of the week are matchups set? Ethendril Pairings are on Wed. Do not edit characters after pairings. Oh, and the best way to deal with Ebelin is ... play a druid :) -Jindl |
| Alathar Vierce12-08-03, 12:31 PM | :heehee :heehee :ayyyy!: :heehee |
| Prexx12-08-03, 12:42 PM | Here is the scenario: A rider sits atop his warhorse. Sleep is cast upon him and he fails his save, but his mount is not put to sleep. He succeeds at his check and does not fall out of the saddle. Is he considered helpless? @LL - Sorry about that, I overlooked hide on your skill list, and assumed you didn't list it, and thus had no ranks in it. |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-08-03, 12:48 PM | Originally posted by LLMadCow If nothing else Nevr would have lost a little sooner... Heheh, agreed. NOT a single argument here. But if i moved to behind your cover from my first spot, i see you automatically as you have nothing to hide behind anymore. I forgot about the being 1st lvl thing against the color spray. I'm gonna have a tough time winning with Nevr. Also, just reading the Sir Roger fight. In rd 3, Spike would have needed to make a ride check to attack with the horse since he's at -5 ride checks for riding bare-back and since it's no longer automatic due to his skill in ride, one needed to be done. But he would have only needed a 3 or better, so probably not a fight breaker. Tellish |
| sshuit12-08-03, 12:51 PM | Ouch I say. Ouch. That does stings mightily. Someone get me a cleric...... Sir Roger (And the still undefeated Zippy) Originally posted by cellardweller Roger vs Spike If only all fights could be this simple (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2030380#post2030380) |
| SnarkHunter12-08-03, 12:51 PM | Hey Mo, I don't think you're quite correct about the max being a +4 for composite longbows. Consider the following entry from the erynies ERINYES Medium Outsider (Evil, Extraplanar, Lawful) Hit Dice: 9d8+45 (85 hp) Initiative: +5 Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), fly 50 ft. (good) Armor Class: 23 (+5 Dex, +8 natural) touch 15, flat-footed 18 Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+14 Attack: Longsword +14 melee (1d8+5/19–20) or +1 flaming composite longbow (+5 Str bonus) +15 ranged (1d8+6/x3 plus 1d6 fire) or rope +14 ranged (entangle) Also in the 3.5 PG (Not the SRD) under the description of the composite Shortbow it gives the example of a +4 str bonus shortbow. Tah tah! |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-08-03, 12:52 PM | Originally posted by Prexx Here is the scenario: A rider sits atop his warhorse. Sleep is cast upon him and he fails his save, but his mount is not put to sleep. He succeeds at his check and does not fall out of the saddle. Is he considered helpless? @LL - Sorry about that, I overlooked hide on your skill list, and assumed you didn't list it, and thus had no ranks in it. Yes he is still helpless. BUT, the horse is not. It will continue to "defend" it's rider. CdG also provokes as well. Tellish |
| Jindl12-08-03, 02:06 PM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket Yes he is still helpless. BUT, the horse is not. It will continue to "defend" it's rider. CdG also provokes as well. Tellish Heh, I think this happened in one of the fights I ran before. The opponent slept the rider, then drank a potion: hide from animals so he could CDG without provoking from the horse. Oh, and its not a ride check to stay in the saddle when sleeping, its a simple percentile roll. 75% chance to stay in saddle with a military saddle, 50% chance with a normal saddle. (See military saddle rules and ride skill). -Jindl |
| Moherajikuyx12-08-03, 02:23 PM | Thnks Jindl don't know how I missed it! run - running horses and monks arrive, at the nearest, at (x, +3) or (x, -3), so at 15' from the enemy. To do a straight line you have to begin moving towards the opponent counting the squares, then do a step laterally when you encounter a column, and so on. bows - thanks Snar, I guess the SRD is wrong then. Is there the "mighty limit" with no limits told in the PH? |
| Caterane12-08-03, 02:40 PM | @Mo: As for the 10th point in the polls I`ve already made a good in-game suggestion. If you could please link this into the Polls question as one kind of solution. Link is posted in my polls section. @all: I don`t know which fight I am going to moderate this week but I would like to give these crowd reactions a try. So if anyone definately doesn`t want his character to be a test person please write it. I`ll take over a fight with gladiators willing to have these rules incorporated, beginning with the high level characters downward (though I hope I don`t have to skip everyone until I`m down at level 2) |
| Market_Share12-08-03, 03:36 PM | Originally posted by Caterane @all: I don`t know which fight I am going to moderate this week but I would like to give these crowd reactions a try. So if anyone definately doesn`t want his character to be a test person please write it. I`ll take over a fight with gladiators willing to have these rules incorporated, beginning with the high level characters downward (though I hope I don`t have to skip everyone until I`m down at level 2) I would like to volunteer actually. It fits my style of combat. I'm lvl 5. Hope that not too much beneath your station? LOL. Can i give my peace on the running mounts. Under movement, it says you can 'squeeze' through areas that are not of your size as long as you pay twice the movement cost. It doesn't say anything about interfering with running. With only the main pillar being the squeeze part, a running horse should still easily get to x-2, no? It's not considered difficult terrain as i look at the RUN action right now. Also in movement portion of the phb, squeezing isn't classified as difficult terrain either. Just wondering. SPIKE |
| Caterane12-08-03, 03:44 PM | @Market: Station. Don`t be silly. There`s no epic fight around :D Seriously, I rather meant that if I have to skip everyone down to level 2 then the idea obviously doesn`t have much fans. Ok, Spike`s my first guinea pig :D Is there any level 5 gladiator who does not want to fight with these rules? |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-08-03, 03:55 PM | Originally posted by Market_Share Can i give my peace on the running mounts. Under movement, it says you can 'squeeze' through areas that are not of your size as long as you pay twice the movement cost. It doesn't say anything about interfering with running. With only the main pillar being the squeeze part, a running horse should still easily get to x-2, no? It's not considered difficult terrain as i look at the RUN action right now. Also in movement portion of the phb, squeezing isn't classified as difficult terrain either. SPIKE Then basically what happens is that a light warhorse, light load, running at x5, can EASILY base a character by just running straight ahead and only paying double the cost for each square that is "squeezed". Although i agree with your interpretation, i'm pretty sure the intent was to not make this possible. Therefore i would suggest to MO to make the central pillar 15' on all sides. That way there is no squeezing no matter what square you place on mount in at the starting block and to get to x-3, you still need to squeeze a little, but easily accomplished by any light encumbered mount. Tellish |
| Caterane12-08-03, 04:02 PM | Although i agree with your interpretation, i'm pretty sure the intent was to not make this possible. Therefore i would suggest to MO to make the central pillar 15' on all sides. See Market? Now you`ve learned another lesson. Put good new ideas into your tactics, discuss them afterwards... |
| Jindl12-08-03, 04:12 PM | RE: Squeezing and such @Tellish and Market_Share: I disagree with your interpretations on this issue. - Squeezing costs 2x movement. By definition this means it is an obstacle that causes hampered movement (Hampered movement is defined as something that costs 2x normal). And it says clearly that you cannot run or charge through any squares that cause hampered movement. So you cannot run and squeeze past the central pillar. Please read the following two quotes from the SRD, which support my analysis: from SRD, COMBAT II (MOVEMENT, MODIFIERS, SPECIAL ACTIONS), Terrain and Obstacles section, Squeezing subsection Squeezing: In some cases, you may have to squeeze into or through an area that isn’t as wide as the space you take up. You can squeeze through or into a space that is at least half as wide as your normal space. Each move into or through a narrow space counts as if it were 2 squares, and while squeezed in a narrow space you take a –4 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty to AC. from SRD, CARRYING, MOVEMENT, & EXPLORATION, Tactical Movement section, Hampered Movement subsection Hampered Movement: Difficult terrain, obstacles, or poor visibility can hamper movement. When movement is hampered, each square moved into usually counts as two squares, effectively reducing the distance that a character can cover in a move... ... You can’t run or charge through any square that would hamper your movement. You can squeeze into (0,+/-1), but doing so costs 2x movement and creates a hampered movement effect, preventing you from running or charging. -Jindl |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-08-03, 04:27 PM | Originally posted by Jindl RE: Squeezing and such @Tellish and Market_Share: I disagree with your interpretations on this issue. - Squeezing costs 2x movement. By definition this means it is an obstacle that causes hampered movement (Hampered movement is defined as something that costs 2x normal). And it says clearly that you cannot run or charge through any squares that cause hampered movement. So you cannot run and squeeze past the central pillar. Please read the following two quotes from the SRD, which support my analysis: You can squeeze into (0,+/-1), but doing so costs 2x movement and creates a hampered movement effect, preventing you from running or charging. -Jindl Then i agree with Jindl now. Hehe...i'm for sale to the highest bidder. Can i say i'm torn between the issue? I seem to have mis-placed my battlemat. Can anyone draw it out and see if you put your mounts bottom right corner on A, and draw a straight line to x-2 if there are any obstructions? It's a tough call just to look at my monitor (though it is 19' flat), and it looks as though it's possible. Just would like to be sure if it comes up in a fight i'm moderating. However, on that note. I've seen this done multiple times, i just never questioned it because it looks like it's close when i look at my screen and thought nothing more of it. Tellish |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-08-03, 05:48 PM | Well, i was researching the subject and it appears Jindl is right on this. However, while i was messing around with the arena map, i saw something else while i was trying to draw straight lines. A mounted pc needs only move 5' angled up to have a direct line to the opponent without any benefit of cover to the guy at the other end. At first i thought this was amazing, then i realized that mounted archers can do full attack actions without penalty if the horse does a single move. So oh well. But if anyone wishes to exploit this, it's there. Tellish |
| Prexx12-08-03, 06:49 PM | I have 4 questions. 1) Continuing with the unconcious rider idea question. Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket Yes he is still helpless. BUT, the horse is not. It will continue to "defend" it's rider. CdG also provokes as well. It also says in the mounted combat section "Without you to guide it, your mount avoids combat." Would this mean that my mount would try to run away from someone that was trying to CDG me? 2) On the topic of "squeezing" by. I think squeezing by is probably against the rules. I would see it as hampered movement. But this scenario should work. Assuming the rider starts in starting position A, and his horse has it's upper rightmost square at location -20,0. His mount should be able to run to 18,2 and not encounter any obstructions. If you trace the corners of his starting point to the respective corners of his ending point I believe that there are no obstructions. Would this scenario work? 3) I'm assuming we are ignoring the rule of x8 weight on all of your gear with enlarge person, otherwise none of our characters would be able to move while it is active. I assume we go under the general assumption that since your carrying capacity increases by x2 for large, all of your items would weight x2. Am I correct in this assumption? 4) What would happen if a person drank a potion of enlarge person while riding a mount? Would you just apply appropriate weight to the mount? Or is there some issue with a large character riding a large mount? |
| SnarkHunter12-08-03, 07:12 PM | @Cat: Well if Hanz wins his next fight I will volunteer him for your dark experiment. Cat=http://www.ursuline.edu/acadaff/biology/bunyard/micro_notes/images/plague1.jpg :angel: |
| Jindl12-08-03, 08:51 PM | Originally posted by Prexx I have 4 questions. 1) Continuing with the unconcious rider idea question. It also says in the mounted combat section "Without you to guide it, your mount avoids combat." Would this mean that my mount would try to run away from someone that was trying to CDG me? Tellish made reference in his earlier post to the "defend" trick, which all warhorses know. This trick doesn't require a handle animal check to work, it works automatically anytime someone attacks the animal's master. The result is that the mount will defend you. Also, most riders give their horse the order to attack, and it will continue to attack until given the command "down." So, again the horse wouldn't flee, it would fight. But if you were put to sleep early, before the horse was told to attack, then it may double move away from any threats. I doubt it would run, it would probably just double move. Originally posted by Prexx 2) On the topic of "squeezing" by. I think squeezing by is probably against the rules. I would see it as hampered movement. But this scenario should work. Assuming the rider starts in starting position A, and his horse has it's upper rightmost square at location -20,0. His mount should be able to run to 18,2 and not encounter any obstructions. If you trace the corners of his starting point to the respective corners of his ending point I believe that there are no obstructions. Would this scenario work? Yes. As long as you can draw an unobstructed line from each corner of the old position to each corner of the new position, then there are not obstructions blocking you from running. Note, that in your example, you are still too far away to attack your opponent before he moves (you are 15 feet away, I think.) Originally posted by Prexx 3) I'm assuming we are ignoring the rule of x8 weight on all of your gear with enlarge person, otherwise none of our characters would be able to move while it is active. I assume we go under the general assumption that since your carrying capacity increases by x2 for large, all of your items would weight x2. Am I correct in this assumption? Enlarge person does not say specifically that equipment increase it weight by a factor of 8 merely that it increases in size as well. Regardless, I think we are using the general rules for armor for larger creatures weighing twice as much (see PHB, armor for unusual creatures.) And this would extend similarly to other equipment as well. Originally posted by Prexx 4) What would happen if a person drank a potion of enlarge person while riding a mount? Would you just apply appropriate weight to the mount? Or is there some issue with a large character riding a large mount? Yes, there is an issue. Despite the mount's ability to carry a certain weight, you cannot ride a creature the same size as you. So, if you become large, you cannot ride a large-sized horse. Luckily for druids, they can cast animal growth to make their mount bigger too!! And a paladin capable of casting enlarge person could share the spell with his mount. But for the rest of you, sorry... -Jindl EDIT: Any word on our missing fights for this weekend? |
| Magagumo12-08-03, 09:07 PM | But enlarge person wouldn't affect the animal, Jindl.... :) |
| fluiddragon12-08-03, 09:08 PM | I need a quick answer I'm running Harverster vs Bilo (not accepting new tactics now) and Bilo ends his move in the open with no cover his prior hide was 43 but the harvester has a clear line of sight to him now at the end of bilo's move, and Harvester acts next. Is spotting in this instance automatic because he is in the open and has nothing to hide behind? they are about 75 feet distant. This could make or break the fight and I don't want to screw it up. I read the hideing guidelines but it didn't help. edit never mind, I used a move action when I was suposed to do a double he wasn't spotted. |
| Jindl12-08-03, 09:21 PM | Originally posted by Magagumo But enlarge person wouldn't affect the animal, Jindl.... :) Paladins can share spells with their mounts, even if the type doesn't match. So if a paladin/wizard casts enlarge person, he can share it with his mount. -Jindl EDIT: @ Fluid - AFAIK, direct line of sight means that the Harvester automatically spots him. Bilo shouldn't have got himself out into the open... Of course, if he had HiPS, then he could still hide. But in this case, the Harvester automatically sees him. Of course, if there is cover between the combatants, then Bilo can still hide, but you made it sound like there was no cover between them. Good luck!! |
| LLMadCow12-08-03, 09:26 PM | Fight of the week to be posted soon... Tonight! |
| Prexx12-08-03, 09:46 PM | @fluid - Without some form of cover or concealment, you cannot hide. If there is a direct, completely unobscured LOS between the two, then it is an automatic spot. @Jindl - In regards to the enlarged rider. What specificly would happen if one was to drink a potion of enlarge person while riding? Would the rider simply crush his mount? Or fall off? If so, at what point of the mounts movement would it happen? In regards to a character moving to 18,2 and attacking. I agree, it would be 15 feet away as far as movement is concerned. However, according to the way reach works, you are able to reach 2 squares in all directions, including diagonal, with a reach weapon. I do not have any graph paper or a battle grid in order to draw the lines out and check for obstructions. Would someone be able to check out this scenario? |
| fluiddragon12-08-03, 10:13 PM | The fight between Harvester and Bilo is complete. I was hoping to have this done on sat night, as I wanted to embelish the story. I am going to notify the characters by email. Cat offered to help write the story so I am going to type up the fight and have him help do the flavor. He is MUCH better at it than I am and I am sure that everyone would rather read his story than mine. (Heck he is one of the main reasons I participate in this thread.) So I'm notifying the players so they have time to update and if I don't hear from Cat tonight I will post my version in the afternoon. So please don't penalize me for being late! The flu hit here. The characters willhave time to update their sheets for this weeks parings. @ Mo: I vote to have the arena not be a dome but just have a ceiling. it is a real pain in the but trying to figure out how high the celing is in certain areas. I might have messed up alittle on the hieghts in the fight. Its more complication than is needed. |
| Jindl12-08-03, 10:18 PM | Originally posted by Prexx @Jindl - In regards to the enlarged rider. What specificly would happen if one was to drink a potion of enlarge person while riding? Would the rider simply crush his mount? Or fall off? If so, at what point of the mounts movement would it happen? I would force the rider to dismount (using a move action or a free dismount if he can make the ride check), or his mount would collapse and he would suffer the effects as if he had fallen from his mount (if he had no move actions left, for example). Remember that you must have a move action left to even attempt a free dismount. This forced dismount would occur whenever the potion is drank. Read the section on mounted combat, specifically on casting while mounted. Treat the potion like a standard action spell (not the full round version). If the mount single moves, it takes effect before or after the move. If the mount double moves (or more), then the potion takes effect halfway through the move (just like a spell would). -Jindl EDIT: @Mo - I agree with fluid about changing from dome to a simple 150' high flat ceiling. |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-08-03, 10:20 PM | Ok, i drew it out on graph paper. No matter how thinly i slice it, best case scenario is to start the FRONT of your horse on the A (or B) marker to end up at x-3. If you put the rear of your horse, you will only be able to get to x-4. This means that even with a reach weapon, you will not threaten your opponent by running to x-3. Alternatively what you can do is to dismount on the side of the pc, then with your reach weapon, you will threaten. Or dismount and do a 5' step to threaten with a melee weapon. Or with a spiked chain, really really put him in a jam. Or use Cat's idea. Put horshoes of speed on your light warhorse, spur your mount and just double move there to smack him in the first place. Tellish |
| Jindl12-08-03, 10:23 PM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket This means that even with a reach weapon, you will not threaten your opponent by running to x-3. Alternatively what you can do is to dismount on the side of the pc, then with your reach weapon, you will threaten. Or dismount and do a 5' step to threaten with a melee weapon. Or with a spiked chain, really really put him in a jam. I would only allow this as a free dismount attempt, because you can only take a standard action at the end of a mount's double move/run. Thus dismounting would need to be a free action in order to attack. Fail your ride check to free dismount, and you still dismount, but it uses your entire action. Make your ride check, and you can take a 5 foot step with your standard action to attack (because technically, you haven't moved yet). It's unlikely we'll see too much of this. And by the time you can afford horseshoes of speed, most characters are beyond the single hit kills. Especially since you can't charge in either of the above scenarios. -Jindl |
| stinkygoblin12-09-03, 12:34 AM | the jagath vs. Targ fight is posted |
| Prexx12-09-03, 02:02 AM | I just plotted it all out on a graph. Assuming he starts in location A, with the upper rightmost square of his mount in the starting location, and that the mount is using a full run action, and that the mount is capable of moving at least 170'. The closest that a character riding a large mount can get to the enemy starting location without intersecting any rocks or pillars would be put the mount's upper rightmost square at 13,3. |
| barrel_master12-09-03, 03:20 AM | http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2037761#post2037761 It took me hours!!!! Point out errors... |
| LLMadCow12-09-03, 03:46 AM | Quote by barrel_master It took me hours!!!! Point out errors... Ditto. |
| LLMadCow12-09-03, 03:50 AM | Post #3000 Fight of the week...? Maybe not, but please critique... http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2037836#post2037836 |
| Moherajikuyx12-09-03, 05:09 AM | Originally posted by fluiddragon @ Mo: I vote to have the arena not be a dome but just have a ceiling. OK I'm adding this vote to the polls. And Cat's suggestion (sorry for not doing it before) Being tuesday, Fluid was awarded with a - for the delay (unless I missed the fight of course) Good to see that you all agree with me after some discussion about the running :angel: Now I'll read the fights!! *edit* LL where is the application of the "try to disrupt with ray if win init or lose init and attacked" tactic? It was the happy part of the medal, but it disappeared... *edit 2* sorry fluid I missed your post in the numbers, I'm removing the - of course |
| cellardweller12-09-03, 09:35 AM | Smushy (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2038783#post2038783) has been entered. |
| Jindl12-09-03, 10:18 AM | **Spoilers** Hah! Who would have thought the Elder would beat Iron in melee combat!!! Consider that a preview of what Iku Rex will be able to do (actually, Iku will be far superior to the Elder at meleeing with spells). Now, time for the Elder to get Quicken Spell and Feeblemind. Muhahahaha!! @Mo :P Oh, and I can run a fight this week (even though I have only 1 combatant. Gimme a level 6 or 7 fight, please.) -Jindl |
| barrel_master12-09-03, 12:36 PM | after this week it became clear that I can't run more then 1 fight per week... if it's okay with Moh... would it be possible for me to remove 1 character from a level with uneven pairings each week... for example if I had a lvl 1 guy and their where 3 lvl 1 guys fighting that week I would remove my dude and even the levels out to give the other guys an opertunity... Otherwise, if this doesn't work, or if it's too complicated, just sit out My lowest dude peter... |
| sshuit12-09-03, 01:08 PM | @ll Enough with the barbarian / Fighters already! I'm getting awful sick of fighting the same enemy every week :D |
| Caterane12-09-03, 01:08 PM | Oh another orc barbarian :rolleyes: Mo, you said there is enough diversity in form of ECL+1 classes but first these are races, second they are crap, third they require two fights to run. This is no option. Either we DO something for NEW characters or we`ll only see copies from now on. The arena works fine because it is something new but if we don`t adjust to the decreasing diversity then it will get boring over time. I would`ve already posted a new character - something I consider for 6 weeks now - but there`s already one of everything. We could at least incorporate the three new core classes (Swashbuckler, Hexblade, Samurai). I bet my next winners gold that the moment we allow for these new characters will storm the arena ...and this should be prove enough that many players cry for new options. |
| sshuit12-09-03, 01:13 PM | My suggestion would be to increase starting level to 3-4, allowing everyone to play +ecl 2 races. We'd see some neat Centaur Monks, Ogre Barbarians, and other stuff. We'd also get to the prestige classes a little sooner. Adding the new core classes sounds like a good idea but then we become non "core" requiring people to buy a new book since its not in the SRD. |
| Caterane12-09-03, 01:18 PM | If it is only for these three classes we can post them on the board. The Complete Warrior is also a great book; you won`t waste money if you buy this. In any case, we have to do something! |
| Jindl12-09-03, 01:31 PM | Really? But we've only got 1 druid (active anyway), 1 rogue (singleclassed), no single classed rangers, 1 bard, no single classed fighters or barbarians, etc... We have no half-elves, only a couple of dwarves (And they are relatively new), 1 gnome, no tieflings, 2 aasimars, and one githyanki. Most of the characters are elves, or orcs. It's not that you can't make new and diverse builds, its that nobody is. But just to help your creative juices... here are my next 4 builds for the arena. the Druidspawn >Orc Barb 13 / Ftr 4 / Drd 3 - (this is what Tomah was going for). >Human Druid 5 / Wiz 3 / MT 10 / Druid 6-7 - (combining the Elder and Jindl) the Mounted monsters >Kobold Rogue1 / Fighter 2 / Sorceror 7 / EK 10 - (Get a psuedodragon with improved familiar, cast enlarge person + permenancy on it, and reduce person + permanency on yourself, then use a lance and power attack to be the first arena "dragon rider") >Human Diviner 1 / Paladin 19 - (Hold a rod of quicken spell in one hand, and the lance in the other. Quicken true strikes + full power attack + spirited charge = die, die, die.) Want more? How about - Wood Elf Monk 6 / Assassin 10 / Shadowdancer 4 - (try to pump up the save DC on stunning fist, then flurry with sneak attacks. Also has hide in plain sight, minor spellcasting, death attack, uncanny dodge, and AWESOME saves.) or - Human Cleric 5 / Sorc 1 / Dragon Disciple 10 / Blackguard 4 - (Use a spiked chain, with the Str boost from DD, you're trip will be great, add all the DD bonus spells to cleric (lots of 3rd level spells), use sorc for enlarge person, and add divine grace and sneak attack from blackguard). Well, I think I have demonstrated that there are still lots of powerful builds that have not yet been seen... Feel free to try any of these, (but if you try one of my druid builds, then expect to see me make the same one later.) -Jindl EDIT: Hey Alathar, isn't it time to bring your undeafeated Iconic out of retirement? We're all waiting for you at 9th level ... |
| Alathar Vierce12-09-03, 01:48 PM | So many ideas for characters, so little room to test them, now if only I was a decent DM lol :) |
| Ethendril12-09-03, 01:55 PM | I've seen a lot of characters that have cohorts, such as Monk-Bane, Handsome George, or Harvester's zombie dragon (very cool). I've done a quick search for the rules on cohorts, specifically with regard to the leadership feat, but have come up empty-handed. Could someone point me to the relevant discussion of this topic (this thread is getting pretty big). Thanks. Ethendril |
| Jindl12-09-03, 01:58 PM | They're not cohorts per se... Monk-bane is a paladin's special mount. The Harvester and Bruno both acquired their companions through casting "animate dead". As yet, no-one has taken leadership, and I'm not sure what the current ruling is on whether it is allowed. I'm waiting on someone to play a thaumaturgist, that special cohort ability is pretty nice... -Jindl EDIT: Ooh, ooh - Here's another build for you, Cat - Half-elf Cleric 7 / Thaumaturgist 5 / Cleric 8-15 -(Take the evil and death domains, cast death knell, use death touch, use blasphemy, and have a kickass demon cohort.) |
| Caterane12-09-03, 02:02 PM | @Jindl: Your Druidspawn orc will start as a fighter/barbarian *yawn*, as will the wood elf monk with monk, so does the human cleric and your one diviner level won`t change the fact that paladins are plenty as sand on the beach. All of your examples are already there (perhaps they even go the way you mentioned). When your characters hit level 15 they may differ a bit from others but that`s a long way to go and the first 6+ levels you won`t notice a difference at all between them and any other existing character. Bards and rogues are not that popular and better suited as a secondary class, and races don`t do much so increase options. A dwarven fighter is not that different from a human fighter. You may still build a combination or two by hard thinking but never in the way new core classes and prestige classes will give us. And another question: What`s so bad in adding more options? |
| Ethendril12-09-03, 02:03 PM | Thanks, Jindl. So everyone that has an ally like that either cast a spell or acquired a special mount. To even the playing field, I'd probably like to take the leadership feat (at least I was planning to when I qualify). Any "official" word on what that would entail? Ethendril |
| Jindl12-09-03, 02:20 PM | Originally posted by Caterane @Jindl: And another question: What`s so bad in adding more options? Balance, accessability, fairness, and identity. When you add new options (like from a supplement book), how do you know if it is truly balanced. The amount of playtesting does not make something balanced. OA was well playtested, but used in a non-OA campaign it is not balanced. The FR prestige classes are not balanced in a standard game (the designer's recognized this as evidenced in the DMG version of Red Wizard). So how do we know what is balanced and what isn't in any new options we add? Accessability is a major issue in this online game. As Mo pointed out, he only has access to the SRD. The same holds true for many others. I myself have the core books, but not the CW. And posting the new classes online does violate CoC, since its not open gaming license material. How can we expect all 20 or so people in the arena, and all newcomers to own a certain supplement? Fairness is an important issue to me. I don't like to see one class favored over another. Whether its Cha based money awards (favoring paladins, sorc's and bards), or writing in prepared spells (favoring non-spellcasters and spontaneous ones), or adding a slew of non-caster based feats and PrC's, it's just not right to favor one class or type of class over another. How can adding the CW possibly be fair? We identify ourselves as the Core Arena. This is important. The builds and techniques we learn, test, and take from this arena can be used in every game, because it is all based upon the 3 core books. When we start adding supplements, we are no longer the core arena, we go back to something akin to the Ready2Rumble thread, and that proved what a complete failure adding non-core options can be. As for the build ideas I posted above, I was trying to help. Yes, many build's look alike for the first couple of levels. That is the nature of DnD. But even if the classes are the same, the race may be different (as Brackin is to Rito). This allows us to see real optimization, and learn things like (High-str Half-orcs make better grappling monks, no offense Mo:P). The three paladins we have can give us a good idea that paladins are powerful regardless of race, but one multiclass dip or race might prove slightly better. Even our orc/barbs have different fighting styles. Just looking at one version of a character doesn't tell us anything. Allister may be more optimized than Jindl. But if LLMadCow had never made "another" druid, then we would never know. Besides, by the time characters make it through the low levels, the diversity becomes obvious and cool. -Jindl I don't mean to sound all "preachy", but I am trying to convey what I feel is an important concept. :) |
| Alathar Vierce12-09-03, 02:23 PM | The bad thing about adding new stuff, is that knowing when to stop. Once new stuff is added, eventually people will get bored of that, so many replicants that we'll want to add another book to keep us entertained for a bit more. If the line is drawn on what is allowed, people realize and accept...but if you falter and keep redrawing that line...well :) We are all very similar when we first enter the world, but no path is 100% like someone elses :) |
| Moherajikuyx12-09-03, 02:26 PM | Caterane, this was born as core arena for a number of simple reasons. You already bounced your head on this thing. The reasons are incompletely reassumed by the unhappy end of the previous Let's get ready to rumble arena. I think the biggest one, is that if we have problems with the rules applying only the core ones, guess what would happen with any additional book. As much as you go far from core, knowledge lessens. The complaints would grow in number far more than many moderators would hold. Me first. |
| Moherajikuyx12-09-03, 02:29 PM | Originally posted by Jindl **Spoilers** Hah! Who would have thought the Elder would beat Iron in melee combat!!! -Jindl Ha! Who would consider that Iron played with half his tactics... Did you read the last lines? With the correct tactics applied, only a well summoned 1 on the charge could save the poor elder. Your fireball in the first round was a humongous error. |
| Jindl12-09-03, 02:34 PM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Ha! Who would consider that Iron played with half his tactics... Did you read the last lines? With the correct tactics applied, only a well summoned 1 on the charge could save the poor elder. Your fireball in the first round was a humongous error. That beg's the question: Whose readied action goes first? The Elder had readied to fireball Iron when Iron began casting. Iron had readied to searing ray the Elder when the Elder began casting. Actually, I guess no fight ever happened because we both waited for the other to start casting, and neither of us would have ever started!?! Anyways, if you check the RP thread, the Elder does give some "props" to Iron for being a very tough opponent. And definately no "pansy" ;) -Jindl |
| Caterane12-09-03, 02:34 PM | I have to go now and won`t come home til tomorow so I answer this another time. And I want to give the others who haven`t posted yet time to respond. But one thing I want to put in the room for now: We already distanced the arena from core with house rules and no matter what supplement: house rules are even less playtested. If we go to that great lengths in order to stay core then we should do it completely. I just pre-memorized for Ebelin and no matter which opponoment I`ll face I`ll lose precious slots for more useful spells. That greatly weakens my character. Ok, see ya tomorow. Cat |
| Magagumo12-09-03, 02:40 PM | Hate to burst bubbles, but I'll keep saying this, Jindl, Enlarge Person only works on one humanoid , so no enlarged dragons, giants, undead, constructs, outsiders, etc. I wish my xill occult slayer could be enlarged in the Epic game which I have participated in, but he simply can't. This is also why dragons don't tend to take the spell with their sorcerous capabilities. Cat, I'd love to see hexblade and swashbuckler in (samurai's all right too :)), but Jindl makes an excellent point about accessibility, and both Jindl and Moh have hit upon the Core basis of our arena. I feel your pain, though *single tear* I want to try the dragon disciple hexblade :) oh, cat raises an excellent point however, one we should discuss immediately. What were people's impressions of pre-memorized spells? Did they help you be better prepared aginast the caster? Or are they, as Cat is stating, hurting a caster's felxibility for little reason. I must admit that I found the reminder that Hanz had Ray of enfeeblement pleasant, but I could have honestly figured it out myself. Bruno tends to memorize a base set of spells, so the plan does not hurt me as much as it apparently hurts Ebelin, but lets hear some input from other memorizing casters. |
| Jindl12-09-03, 02:51 PM | Originally posted by Magagumo Hate to burst bubbles, but I'll keep saying this, Jindl, Enlarge Person only works on one humanoid , so no enlarged dragons, giants, undead, constructs, outsiders, etc. I wish my xill occult slayer could be enlarged in the Epic game which I have participated in, but he simply can't. This is also why dragons don't tend to take the spell with their sorcerous capabilities. Magagumo - Please read the following excerpt from the SRD, regarding the share spells ability of paladin mounts and familiars. Note: In every instance where I have referred to using enlarge person on a non-humanoid, it was to be used on a special mount or familiar. (except for the Dragon Disciple build, but hey, you can use enlarge person all the way until DD 10, and that's pretty good mileage.) from the SRD, Shared Spells ability from Special mounts or familiars section (they're the same) Share Spells: At the paladin’s option, she may have any spell (but not any spell-like ability) she casts on herself also affect her mount. The mount must be within 5 feet at the time of casting to receive the benefit. If the spell or effect has a duration other than instantaneous, it stops affecting the mount if it moves farther than 5 feet away and will not affect the mount again even if it returns to the paladin before the duration expires. Additionally, the paladin may cast a spell with a target of “You” on her mount (as a touch range spell) instead of on herself. A paladin and her mount can share spells even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the mount’s type (magical beast). You can enlarge person on your familiar or your special mount even though they are not the humanoid type. -Jindl EDIT: I know how you feel about the Xill thing. I wish Iku Rex could use enlarge person. But he's nobodies familiar or special mount (though if Candy needed one, he would prolly consider it.) |
| barrel_master12-09-03, 02:56 PM | Regarding the whole 'we need new stuff' thing... True, the arena does seem a little bland now with lots of people doing similar builds but I'll trust in Moh's judgement when it comes to the arena... he's been fairly level headed while making decisions and in the end, I think he'll do what's best. On a related note, I know that this idea has been shot down before but, why not add Psionics (if it's deamed that there is a lack of variation in the arena)? That's almost 3 classes right there and it's SRD. Or maybe I'm just crazy. :p |
| Caterane12-09-03, 03:08 PM | :mad: Missed the train. So I have another 10 min to explain my situation: Ebelin is based on versitality and surprise. Look at my spellbook. I spent lots of money to have many spells. I took a level of monk. I bought a rod of silence. This lets me adept and variate while my opponoment has to guess which tactic I am using. Will I buff+melee? Ranged combat? Grapple? Sneaking? Damaging spells? Or Save-or-die spells? That element of surprise is a basic part of Ebelin - one that I gave absolute priority to from the beginning on - but now that I am forced to reveal my spells (=tactic) it robs me of my main advantage, my character concept. Honestly, I don`t suppose that he`ll be that successful in future, or that the character will work at all. |
| barrel_master12-09-03, 03:29 PM | Hey, I have a question for you guys... In the past I've been critisized for having my char's 'wait out buffs' or disabling spells, in your opinion, what is the limit between good stratagy and poor sportsmenship when it comes to waiting out buffs? Also, concerning the spell thing, I'd give it a few more weeks. Don't think we've run enough fights to determine it's usefullness. |
| Jindl12-09-03, 03:33 PM | I have no problem with the wait out buffs strategy. If you have a tactical advantage where you can hide/evade your enemy and chose your own time to attack, then I think that is part of optimization. This is why I don't like the "crowd rules" that Cat pulled from the CW. It should take more than adding buffs to beat your opponent. You need skill to find him, and the ability to catch him. Fights are won and lost based on these two abilities, more than anything else. And IMO, that's the way it should be. |
| SnarkHunter12-09-03, 03:38 PM | @ the prepared spells guidelines: I think the guidelines were neither a success nor a failure. I detected no great difference in mine or other's strategies based around them. Therefor given the anxiety they're causing certain denizens of the board I would say we discontinue the practice starting with this weeks fights. @Cat: Well Hanz won his fight so I'll go ahead and try your madman's plan. Spike and he should be well matched since both their common actions (tripping and feinting respectively) are croud pleasers. Still unless both players request it these are not rules I think should be commonly applied. Seriously detrimental to spellcasters for one. And don't expect me to start taking ranks in perform (weapon drill) ;). |
| fluiddragon12-09-03, 04:04 PM | About the prepared spells thing. My characters are 2 sorc an a monk, and All 3 of my characters fought prepared casters last round, so I have 3 fights worth of comparison. Knowing a few of the spells did absolutly nothing to change my tactics what so ever. I optimize my characters well (I think) and buy equipment based on who I might fight in the next round. From the other side of the fence it did not help me in the least, and I feel it hurts the other characters too much. Like Eblin I rely on surprise as everyone who has fought Gage should realize that I used a different tactic each time, never duplicating them. It is easier for a Sorc to be this flexible but I can see Cat's point. A wizard is much less flexible and his whole strategy could be killed. A well built spont caster can do this easily but it really hampers the prepared casters. I'd love to pit Gage up against Eblin at full strength with out having any idea what tactics he will use. Its more fun and makes me think sharper. I supported Mo in the trial but I feel it bought me nothing knowing what some of the other guys spells were. It was a good test but I think it takes too much away from prepared casters. -fd BTW depending what time I get done with the story for the Bilo vs Harvester tonight and work, I might not be able to fight next round. I will still mod 1 fight even if I don't have any PC's playing. At this point all my characters are not ready. |
| fluiddragon12-09-03, 04:13 PM | About waiting tactics. These fights take along time to run. As a mod I don't care about waiting for a few rounds for buffs to wear off. But waitng for spells with durations ranging from a couple minutes to hours is not acceptable in my opinion. There is a differance to sneaking and playing hide and seek, (like Kelek) and wating 2 hours to engage for buffs to wear off. Waiting for 10 rounds for improved invisibilty or a Prot spell to wear off is ok. But 2 hours is not. If a character has no other option to win but wait till his opponent starves to death then surrender, edit your sheet, or fight but tell the mod to use NO resources. You can get lucky, if you loose you loose nothing but you have a chance to win. If you win then cool. I don't think waiting 2 hours or 2 weeks is a viable strategy, and is no fun to run. I don't think we need more rules just a guideline that it is rude to the mod who's time we are taking and that it should not be done, but leave it at a guideline rather than a rule. |
| Magagumo12-09-03, 04:17 PM | I applaud Hanz and Spike for their willingness to be Cat's guinea pigs; If it works out favorably, I agree with Snark's suggestion thet it will be an option to be agreed upon by both participants, as I know few to no spellcasters who would normally agree to it. @barrel I think the wait out buffs is a fine strategy, if hard to pull off nowadays. With our revised rules on hiding (i.e. line-of-sight) they aren't nearly as obnoxious or unbeatable The fight between Zorander and Hanz looked very well run, and it is the closest my characters have come to beating Snark's (1 hp! :)). The only mistake I detected was that total defense or fighting defensively grant dodge bonuses, which are lost when one is flat-footed. Thusly, it would have been better for Zorander to simply hack at the goo. Also, while one can feint an opponent and hold an action to strike when they move, this only would work for one round, as they would then be 5' out of your reach the following round, forcing you to 5' step and swing or feint, but no held actions (you cannot take a standard action, move action, and a 5'). Thusly, it should be noted that feinting only really works if your opponent is willing to stand toe to toe with you, or is incuring AoO along the way. Despite this, I think you did a good job, I will fix up Zorander and purchase a lot more arrows :). Glad to see he held up well while not 1st-turn criticaling. Edit: @Jindl, Ah, I forgot about sharing spells, what a bloody nice ability :). Sorry for contradicting you, oh Arena champion *mock bow* ^_~ |
| Moherajikuyx12-09-03, 04:32 PM | Cat: so you complain for not predeclaring all the spells? Because you know, basing on the core rules, that is what the prepared spellcasters do. Too bad the others know what you prepare, but that's the rules. Is this your intention? I don't think you'll be really popular... Originally posted by Jindl That beg's the question: Whose readied action goes first? Actually, Iron couldn't care less about that... The readied action which happens first in this case was no one: Iron was waiting spellcasting, Elder too, so no one of the two conditions verified, and the turn passed with no actions... but Iron's getting nearer! It's the risk of the prepared actions. It's the reason for which not many use them. At round two, Iron was at charge range, still preparing to disrupt, and Elder had to face of having wasted a round, and to decide if going on waiting for spellcasting, with Iron at 15', or if doing something wiser. Too bad that LL didn't understand my tactic... That charge, I believe, would not have nat-1ed a lot of dices earlier. What was the first dice rolled, LL? Not a 1 I bet. Sorry for you, a win of this kind must have a bitter taste. |
| Magagumo12-09-03, 04:44 PM | Ok, Zorander and Bruno are all updated, and I have switched them over to the standard format, Moh, so please remove that blastedly annoying red label :) Finals this week, *shudder* but I can handle the fight (or two) that is required of me. :) |
| sshuit12-09-03, 04:49 PM | Honestly, What does everyone think about starting at ECL 3-5 instead of 2? I think this would add a lot more interesting builds that don't all look the same .... as well as seeing more prestige class builds. Another option would be letting even losers of fights gain 1/3 of a level again with the aim of getting more higher level (read : interesting) builds in there. For instance, I like the Mystic Theurge idea that Clidohna is working on but it might take a LONG time to get to a playable level, ditto for dragon disciples, dwarven defenders etc. |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-09-03, 05:26 PM | As much as i would have liked to wait the 3hrs for Gage's delay poison to wear off, and i think i could have pulled it off, i don't think it's really in the spirit of it all. I will still delay for rages or buffs up to 1/10 to wear off, but above that, i'm not sure i wanna waste all that time writing up boat loads of evasion strategy only to make a single mistake and it's all gone. I'd just as soon, lose it, and carry on to next week. As for the CW stuff. I only have the books required for use by LG and that's core+splat. So unless LG adopts it, i won't be buying it as i don't play home-campaigns. I only have once spellcaster (lvl 1 at that) so i don't really have an opinion on the pre-mem'd spell thing. I guess i'm kinda in favor of the current spellcasting rule, but i may be biased. Either way, i'm fine with whatever is decided. Tellish |
| Pitlords12-09-03, 05:34 PM | |
| Moherajikuyx12-09-03, 05:35 PM | BTW I set my first challenge: Iron challenges Ebelin, shouting nonsense like "I will prepare all my spells in advance for you, trickster!" Of course, he's lying... :angel: |
| Moherajikuyx12-09-03, 06:26 PM | The vote on the skeletons looks nearly done. They're accepted, and only those in the skeletons examples are possible! So all of you, check out the skeletons in your possession. Sadly I was an idiot and I worded the cost question in a poor manner. Now it's done better, please review your votes! Any additional costs will have to be fulfilled next week. Also, the gladiators who have unconventional skeletons should change them, will not be permitted of using them this week, and will get their full money back, for vote result. |
| fluiddragon12-09-03, 07:16 PM | Bilo vs The Harvester Posted (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2042743#post2042743) Hope you enjoy the story. Cat wrote part of the intro. -fd |
| Magagumo12-09-03, 07:32 PM | *Sigh* I suppose the majority has spoken, but you do all realize that you have nerfed Cat and I? There are rules directly in the MM describing how to make skeletons, and Cat and I have have used those rules to the letter with creatures from the MM only. I saw the vote was 8 to 6, and I wasn't sure if Motherbast was voting that we can only use skletons listed, or if we can make our own. I guess I'm trying to swing some votes here, but you are killing our creativity and ability to expand, and I just want you to understand that you are cutting out a normal part of the games's Core rules. On another less important note, barrel, you mentioned that Hanz used 2 CLW potions, when he was listed as almost having one. I frantically searched through the fight, but was dissappointed to learn it was onyl a typo ;) Edit: Yea, there aren't any four-legged zombies... isn't it a little foolish to declare it impossible for Cat to create mounts for himself? Let me postulate this questions, is there any person who voted "yes" for restricing skels and zombies to the listings, who would allow the creation of any skeleton and zombie (using the provided ruiles in the MM) if there was no chance of using advanced monsters or templated creatures? As I recall, those who said they wanted to use any of the creatures in the book made this stipulation, and I wonder ifthose who decided against this considered the possibility of a difference between the two. To clarify: Those who said no "extra" skels and zombies, would you allow them if templated (half-dragon) or advanced (Wolf with more than 2 HD for example) creatures were banned from being used as undead? If so, please post about it soon.. |
| Mercy12-09-03, 08:02 PM | Regarding Leadership: I don't remember if this thread outlawed Leadership or the previous arena thread did. I believe the argument against it was that it would end up fighting 2 vs. 2, but since we are allowing undead I don't see a reason we can't use it. Regarding pre-memorized spells: I believe if you are that concerned with the possible spells a caster usually memorizes then you can go back and review their previous fights. I'm of the opinion that it doesn't add much. Regarding the lack of diversification: A possible solution is to let players re-create their character at set points, such as level 5, 9, 13, etc... By re-creating their character I mean creating a different character at the same level as the old one and using the same amount of resources. In effect retiring the old character, but not having to fight your way up through the ranks. But we lose the some of the spirit of the arena thread by not requiring a build to be viable through out all levels. |
| cellardweller12-09-03, 08:30 PM | Originally posted by Jindl I'm waiting on someone to play a thaumaturgist, that special cohort ability is pretty nice... Johan is on the way :smirk: Originally posted by Caterane Oh another orc barbarian :rolleyes: I think you should reserve judgment for a level or two. |
| SnarkHunter12-09-03, 08:38 PM | Hanz and..sigh...Bilo, are ready to go. |
| Magagumo12-09-03, 08:43 PM | I thought Johan was going Thamurturgist :) BTW, Moh, what is Zorander still missing? |
| fluiddragon12-09-03, 09:36 PM | Gage and DragonRain are both ready for the next round. I can only mod 1 fight this week. DragonRain challanged Tomar, he's sick of fighting elves! Fluiddragon is not fighting this round. -fd |
| Alathar Vierce12-09-03, 10:38 PM | Might have a replacement for Carane here soon, just a matter of typing it out. If not in time just run carane another week then going to try something else :) |
| Mercy12-09-03, 11:11 PM | Targ is ready for the next fight. |
| stinkygoblin12-09-03, 11:26 PM | the goblins in stinky's tribe finally found him. They killed him. stinky's uncle |
| Jindl12-09-03, 11:39 PM | Hey Mo - Please don't move Jindl and Skymoon to the inactive list, they're still active, we're just all waiting to get 8 competitors at level 9. They shouldn't be put down there with piwi's long dead characters. Please put them back on the roster at level 9. -Jindl EDIT: Also, Iku Rex challenges Krakskul. |
| Alathar Vierce12-10-03, 02:09 AM | Cadion Ironbound (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1158275#post1158275) Would like to try something new for tommorrow if in time, just have Carane on stasis at the current moment and going to give this guy a shot. |
| KerlanRayne12-10-03, 03:57 AM | Tomar accepts challenge from Dragonrain. KerlanRayne |
| Moherajikuyx12-10-03, 04:45 AM | People, remember, challenges not explicited on the sheet subject line could be missed! I can't remember all the things in this thread. Don't complain if you don't! Cat - Iron the Panza, now called the Humongous Rider, is challenging your trickster. Is there any other huge mount in the MM? I don't like the undead. I'm drooling to have permanency on Iron! Galamdring - I hope you update Mara because else lvl 7 is uneven! Originally posted by Magagumo would you allow them if templated (half-dragon) or advanced (Wolf with more than 2 HD for example) creatures were banned from being used as undead? I'll post this question on the polls, but as you said majority spoke, so the custom skeletons are out for this week, sorry. My opinion is that it would be really really risky, unbalanced stuff will be found even without the templates or advanced monsters. I think we shall post some guidelines about undead as mounts. Do you guys think that the -5 for unlikely mounts is enough? Or being mindless would make for harsher penalties? Mag, Zorander misses the stat points allocation. Also, use a fixed width font, or at least try to line up lines (see Cat's pcs). Originally posted by Mercy [...]But we lose the some of the spirit of the arena thread by not requiring a build to be viable through out all levels. You're right, this is one of the few arena pillars, and will not change. I'm still convinced that to add to diversity we should let HD>1 races grow hit dices. Calculating HD-based stuff like BAB, skills, saves and so on is not that hard. Things with strange abilities usually have an LA higher than 1. As only one person used Jindl's proposal we might want to reconsider the thing. Originally posted by Jindl Please don't move Jindl and Skymoon to the inactive list, they're still active, we're just all waiting[...] Well, they're not active from already some weeks... And the list below is exactly the list of the inactives. Sorry. I fear Jindl (the druid) was catched in the tremendous standard sheet machine, more unstoppable than the juridic system... Originally posted by stinkygoblin the goblins in stinky's tribe finally found him. They killed him. stinky's uncle :weep: We'll miss our only gobbo! Now updating roster. And adding poll. Please vote! Few hours to the pairings... Hurry up moderators if you have specioal requests for the fights. As of now, I remember only Cat's proposal of modding the fast-play guinea pigs ;) |
| MadCowTemplate12-10-03, 06:21 AM | Well, now that I have successfully stuffed a three story house's worth of stuff into a three bedroom condo, had a car accident because someone was passing out driving (evidently, they were over-tired from moving all night), pawned a fight off at the last possible moment frustrating and inconveniencing people, and finally, found a computer and a working phone line, I'm back. Hi everybody! :D Okay, first thing's first. I apologise for inconveniencing and unduelly stressing out everyone involved with the fight I did not run. Props and thanks to those who helped get that issue resolved. I will say only two things in my defense, 1 is that I had asked to not be given a fight that week because I didn't think I'd have time, and, as it turned out, I didn't. 2 is that my phone service was cut off sooner than I expected and I had to barrow a friend's home office to do anything. Excuses aside, I am sorry. Back to business. I like Motherbast's theory that Lora was thinking about skills she used to have. Good call MB. That wand sure is useless alright! HA! HA!:rofl:HA! HA! HA! ... :turkey: @MO AND LLMADCOW So, after a week off to ponder that darn wand, Lora's decided she doesn't like clerics much more than paladins. Oh, and she doesn't much trust elves either, so uh, she wants to kill Cliodhna d'Elrich. Thanks for having me, and now I'll go look at the polls. Peace and twinkies to all. |
| Irlina12-10-03, 07:07 AM | Just deleted Ydaf and let Toad take his place. |
| Moherajikuyx12-10-03, 07:10 AM | I see spongiform prions spreading over my screen! What's that? Welcome back MCT! *Edit* JIT: Just In Time Irlina :) *Edit 2* MCT, add the prepared spells and standardize the sheet plz... |
| Caterane12-10-03, 07:56 AM | WHAT?? Only MM undead? Oh my that`s completely unfair. Ok please listen everyone: I made a few suggestions to improve the arena lately BUT NO!!! IT IS NOT CORE!!! THIS IS THE CORE ARENA!!! Ok, accepted but in this case we SHOULD STAY CORE!!! Animate dead is an official spell. It is some kind of class ability because it is on my list but while I get nerved druids and paladins may freely get their flying killer mounts. THIS IS COMPLETELY UNFAIR. It seems that I always get the short end of the stick. First Ebelin with this (not even voted on) pre-memorizing, now the banning of optional flying mounts for the Harvester. How am I supposed to fight when everyone just flies up??? Buy a 30.000 Hippogriff (with 30hp?)? Or a 28.000 Obsidian horse (with 30 hp)? Drink a potion of fly and shed a tear about my wasted mounted combat feats? I don`t talk about templates or advanced monsters. I even voted against them but there is NO REASON not to allow additional monsters. And what of variety? Then: the ones who voted for restricting to the undead just said "Yes" and nothing else why the ones who said "No" all wrote a reason why. Obviously the "Yes" voters haven`t made much thoughts about the topic and voted on this while holding the breakfast in the other hand, while the "No" sayers (e.g. Snark, Jindl, Magagumo, myself; all senior mods except Mo) obviously thought this over a couple of times and then posted their opinion. To all who voted "Yes": there`s a new vote so please take a moment before you rid some players of their character concepts. One vote will change the poll. Either we do this straight core or not at all. But at the moment this is just a mess of 3.5 core mixed with house rules over and over. |
| SnarkHunter12-10-03, 08:00 AM | @Mo: since Mara didn't use anything her last fight I think she's good to go. |
| Caterane12-10-03, 08:03 AM | Oh and what about this weeks pairings? Is the Harvester on foot now? Really great that someone tells me this an hour before the pairings are set. Exceptionally great timing. Let`s allow them for this week, at least. You can`t force this new rule on me 5 min to 12. Edit: Motherbast wrote "Yes" in the poll but meant "No". That evens the poll so no changes this week. I`ll fly my dragon. |
| Caterane12-10-03, 08:12 AM | Cat - Iron the Panza, now called the Humongous Rider, is challenging your trickster. Normally yes but this would leave the Harvester against the invisible Bruno (which he cannot detect, but Ebelin can), so the Harvester challenges Iron for a revanche. |
| Irlina12-10-03, 08:29 AM | @Cat Come o-n animate dead is core, yes, but it stills needs the skeleton of a hard-to-come-by creature. And please, tell me, how the hell a lvl.10 cleric is getting the skeleton from a CR-20 titan? We're normally neglecting spell components which are easy to get or have a negletible price. But the limitating factor on animate dead IS the skeleton- which is NOT EASY TO GET! It is not core, that you just can get anything you like for free! No sane GM would allow this! Sorry, but I think animate dead is simply too strong if you allow everything. And this has got nothing to do with core. Please show me one rule in the core rulebook which says you can plunder titan or dragon or whatever graveyards for free! |
| Jindl12-10-03, 08:33 AM | Mo - Jindl and Skymoon don't deserve to be down on the Inactive list next to piwi's characters (and other never seen people). These two fought all the way up and are rewarded by being put on the inactive list? Put them back on the roster. Just because the community decides to wait at 9th level doesn't mean these characters become inactive or that they should have to be changed to the standard sheet. Put 'em back. ****************************** Re: Skeletons - I agree with Cat on this one. It was a narrow vote, and already we can see that at least 4 of the people who voted yes have now reversed their opinions by voting yes on 8 aa (bunch of yes-men ;)) So, I think we should allow the Harvester and Bruno their special friends this week and from here on, as that is obviously what the voting community wants. -Jindl |
| LLMadCow12-10-03, 08:39 AM | Challenge accepted from Lora. |
| fluiddragon12-10-03, 08:49 AM | Originally posted by Jindl Re: Skeletons - I agree with Cat on this one. It was a narrow vote, and already we can see that at least 4 of the people who voted yes have now reversed their opinions by voting yes on 8 aa (bunch of yes-men ;)) So, I think we should allow the Harvester and Bruno their special friends this week and from here on, as that is obviously what the voting community wants. -Jindl I'm a mindless drone yes yes yes yes yes yes er... yes. Lets not cut The Harvesters balls off. There are no affordable, survivable fying mounts in the core rules and no way to make them so. Let him have his dragon especially at this late hour if we were going to nerf it he needs time anyway to redo the charcter, it wouldn'd be fair to nerf him this week anyhow. Tellish had a very good point earlier about finding tactics to overcome the undead, rather than banning them. |
| Magagumo12-10-03, 08:52 AM | God Bless you all, Bruno smiles just a little bit :) Oh, Irlina, if you are concerned about the super dragons and titans, vote for my extra payment suggestion. As a 10th caster, Bruno could be getting a titan, but I would have to spend 12,100 gp on it. NOw, considereing that that is going to be all my cash, and since many people would ignore the titan (mindless) skeleton through invisibility or... feeblemind, *grr! :* I think it will be alright. I will be coughing up the extra 100 gold for Turkish after class, or after the fight (if editing is then forbidden) I have around 3k to spare :). Hmm.. so Iron and Harvester are madly fleeing Bruno... but Cat, Turksih vs. Crimson Sunrise would be hilarious! :-D Heh, both of us finally snag the immune to cold and fire skeletons... Well, this is in your ahnds Cat, Ebelin and Harvester have both challenged/been challenged, so who's gonna fight Bruno?? :) As for Zorander, Moh, Snark PMed the problem to me last night. I will fix after class, or after fights with postings are done |
| Moherajikuyx12-10-03, 09:47 AM | Originally posted by Caterane WHAT?? Only MM undead? Oh my that`s completely unfair. Given the politely presented preoccupations, let's keep the poll open for another week. Cat, double check your undead though: unless you use unhallow as a prefight buff, and you don't have the CL, the boni wear off before the fight. Also, unhallow has 25 gp M. I think that if we allow for custom skeletons, we really should pay for the corpses. After all the corpse is in the M components. Jindl - characters might be not-playing only by moving to the inactive list, please don't make me set up another list only for this. The roster shows only active characters. That's just for clarity, nothing else. Is updating the sheet so tremendous? Originally posted by SnarkHunter @Mo: since Mara didn't use anything her last fight I think she's good to go. Thanks! I'll set her ready. About the house rules - thanks for pointing that out politely. To lessen their numbers, I'm doing a little change to the items crafting rules... Xp should be paid 5gp (core rules), so crafting an item should cost half price + 5*xp price, which is 1/25 price, so 1/2 +1/5 price, so 7/10 price which is almost the same as 2/3, but not an house rule. Moreover, it doesn't have strange decimals (.66). It will also let us use other xp cost stuff, we're getting near that and we have to prepare for that. This not-house-rule will take place from next week, don't worry. But the already bought stuff will have to be adjusted, sorry. (I'll do that for Iron and Curungur... Hoping to win coz I'm low on funds) Half an our to the pairings... *Edit* Originally posted by Magagumo Hmm.. so Iron and Harvester are madly fleeing Bruno...[/B] Actually Iron couldn't challenge him, else there would have been a Cat vs. Cat. fight. *Edit2* I downsized the roster upkeep cost to 1 fight, with the standardized sheets and some ideas I got to speed up things it requires about 3-4 hours weekly, which is more or less a long fight. |
| Moherajikuyx12-10-03, 11:24 AM | PAIRINGS DONE! With no uneven lvls!! Don't edit the sheet, if you want to see your pc actually fighting: new players, editing the pc after the pairings are set makes him lose automatically. The asked editings shall be done in the sent tactics. Characters with the spells flag still set will have to use the default spells. For anyone doubting ;), the pairings are done with an online roller, here (http://krisinchico.brinkster.net/searchroll.asp?username=CoreArena#77839) is the last result for example... The named character is paired with the corresponding character counted from up to down in the order in which it appears on the roster, excluding the named character: if there are 4 characters in a level, the online roller will be xxxx vs. and the dice rolled will be three. I always did it this way, it's a random method as good as any other one. Tactics time! See you! |
| Caterane12-10-03, 12:55 PM | @Mo: The Harvester challenged Iron. Didn`t you accept??? :turkey: Jindl - characters might be not-playing only by moving to the inactive list, please don't make me set up another list only for this. The roster shows only active characters. That's just for clarity, nothing else. Is updating the sheet so tremendous? I can feel for Jindl here. Piwi, Eschaton, Wolfwings, SnarkHunter, who are these guys??? (@Snark: :P ) If they show up again (which I doubt) then it is no problem to re-link their characters. I witnessed Imizaels or Alathars good-bye. They told us what`s going on, that they have much to do and they said goodbye to us with the prospect of returning one day (which Alathar gladly did). Not so piwi for example who just vanished and leaving his opponoment with an inactive character. That`s not cool. So it`s a pain in the @s$ to see your precious legendary hero like Jindl (the druid of course, not the player!! :P ) next to wimps like "Silaqui Holgerson, 0 won, 1 lost, inactive for all eternity". And actually I even think that it is LESS clear when not all characters are included on the roster. If I want to check whom I face next week while not all pairings are resolved I have to include the "inactive list" and "think" the characters into the right position. More difficult and unclear by far than a simple "didn`t fight" flag behind the name. I once hit a new level and thought Ebelin the only one *bang* a pegasus paladin appeared out of nowhere nearly making me fall backward from my chair. And lastly, the level 9 roster doesn`t fight anyway so why deleting them from there? Let them bathe in the view. They`ve earned it to be seen by everyone being the champions (before Jindl changes his sig again :P :P :P ) Just my opinion. |
| Ethendril12-10-03, 01:01 PM | I also think the level 9 guys should show up on the roster. As a forum newbie, I like to look at the most successful characters and pretend that I, too, will be more powerful one day... [jolts back to reality] I think they earned it, too. Ethendril |
| Caterane12-10-03, 01:07 PM | Originally posted by Ethendril I also think the level 9 guys should show up on the roster. I like to look at the most successful characters and pretend that I, too, will be more powerful one day... Now Jindl, that was your mistake. You`ve exposed yourself as Ethendril :D |
| Ethendril12-10-03, 01:11 PM | Also, what do the Powers That Be say about the leadership feat? It's core, and it requires using a feat. Even if it's limited to say, only mounts, it would help even the playing field for characters without special mounts or animate dead. Characters with animate dead don't even have to use anything besides a "known" spell. They can memorize other spells for combat. Actually, they could even use a scroll and I'd have to burn up a feat to get leadership. I think it should have some limits (to avoid combat being 2 on 2), but it seems like maybe this topic should be tied in with the skeleton discussion. I didn't vote in the last poll (regarding skeletons), but if I had, I would vote Yes to skeletons if I could have a way to counter it (with leadership) and No to skeletons if I couldn't have some ally or mount. Just my 2 gp. Ethendril |
| Alathar Vierce12-10-03, 01:12 PM | Will have tactics sent later on tonight Cellar, all 4 finals are today and depending how tired/angry/drunk/happy, or a melting pot of each...will depend how readable they will be! :D Also as a side note I made a slight error in typing him up, his alignment should be Lawful Good(got it at NG now), was a error in copy/paste/delete and refiguring the build :) Will change after the fight, just to keep with the rules |
| Ethendril12-10-03, 01:14 PM | Caterane said "Now Jindl, that was your mistake. You`ve exposed yourself as Ethendril." I knew you'd catch me one day... EthenJindl |
| Caterane12-10-03, 01:23 PM | Also, what do the Powers That Be say about the leadership feat? Great! That`s what I wanted to say all day but it slipped my mind. Thanks ...Jindl :P Ok, the paladins/druids may have their companions, the clerics their undead but the fighters and other melee types are left with no companion. That`s unfair, too. And here comes the Leadership feat. It`s a precious feat, it is based on dumby charisma and it enables them to bring in an ally too, a better one than Jack the Janitor or the various horses (which will quickly get to weak). Since we closed the poll with the charisma this is another thing that could make the least favorite ability more popular. And the fact that everyone is only allowed to bring in one ally only it is balanced and gives fighter-types a chance to have one too. And it gives more color to the arena. More story to the characters and for the moderators to include in the fights. @Ethendril: Just hit the quote button next time. It does wonders, I promise!! |
| Ethendril12-10-03, 01:34 PM | @Ethendril: Just hit the quote button next time. It does wonders, I promise!! Ah, the elusive quote button...there it is! Thanks, Caterane. |
| Alathar Vierce12-10-03, 01:37 PM | Also a note to prexx on your new spiked chain guy, an enlarged spiked chain only has a range of 15' not 20' Same with enlarged reach weapons. They go up in 5' increments not doubled unfortunately. Now if only I could sneak in monkey grip and get a 20' reach tripping machine....hmm:drool: :drool: :drool: |
| Moherajikuyx12-10-03, 01:55 PM | Upon popular demand, I'm not only adding a poll for the leadership feat, but I'm moving back the levelniners to their belonged position. Wait what's that alien mind possessing mine... Yes, agent Smith, I'll obey. :behold: |
| Jindl12-10-03, 02:01 PM | Originally posted by Caterane Now Jindl, that was your mistake. You`ve exposed yourself as Ethendril :D Okay, Cat-Irlina... Really, there is one and only one Jindl. I haven't the time or inclination to use an alias. Besides, it would be too much work just to get out of 1 fight a week. I do appreciate the support on keeping the lvl 9's on the roster. It also helps for clarity, since we are waiting for 8 players at level 9, it's easier to keep count when you can actually see how many are at level 9. As for leadership, I would like to see it included, but I fear it can be to badly manipulated (allowing spellcasting cohorts and such). What ideas do you guys have to keep Leadership from getting out of control? originally posted by Alathar Vierce Also a note to prexx on your new spiked chain guy, an enlarged spiked chain only has a range of 15' not 20' Same with enlarged reach weapons. They go up in 5' increments not doubled unfortunately. Alathar, where do you get this info from? Looking at the MM, the Cornugon (Horned Devil), is a large creature (10x10) who uses a spiked chain with a 20 foot reach? So why wouldn't a PC who became Large use a 20 foot reach on their spiked chain? -Jindl |
| Caterane12-10-03, 02:50 PM | As for leadership, I would like to see it included, but I fear it can be to badly manipulated (allowing spellcasting cohorts and such). What ideas do you guys have to keep Leadership from getting out of control? You have to buy equipment for him. A wizards spellbook might get pretty expansive as is a fullplate for a cleric. While your character is boosted with potions and magic items the leadership ally doesnt have much of either AND is lower in level as you are so he shouldn`t be too much of a problem ...at least no more than your own ally is. |
| MadCowTemplate12-10-03, 03:06 PM | I hereby acknowledge my assignment of AND pledge to run the following fight: Krakskul, Prexx vs. Smushy, cellardweller On Saturday morning. :angel: |
| Alathar Vierce12-10-03, 03:34 PM | Just going by the logic stated under the creature size. Chart (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/CombatII.rtf) Being a normal character using a large sized spiked chain. Under enlarge you'd be moved to the large category, and the weapon size moves up to huge giving it a 15' reach. In order to reach 20', you'd have to have a gargantuan spiked chain :) |
| fluiddragon12-10-03, 03:35 PM | For allies one potential problem I see is the sneakers. A fight with 1 or both opponents are sneakers is going to take awhile. Could you imagine running a fight with 4 sneaking spell casters? The move silent and hide checks with the applicable spots and listens are going to take forever. I would NOT want to run this fight. I'd be 60 before it was done. If your cohort starts out NAKED (I'm claiming the female elvish sorcerer cohorts and the female monks with flurry of blows) Then its less of a problem, as you have to buy ALL of thier equipment. I just think that once you have 4 intellligent oponents fighting each other things get more complicated and will take alot longer. Especially as you go up in level. If leadership was limited to Mounts and "animal companions" sort of thing then I would be for it as they can do less than a pc/npc. I just don't want to run the battle of 4 spell casting sneaks that wait till the buffs run out and they starve to death match. |
| Caterane12-10-03, 03:52 PM | @Fluid: Therefore the crowd rules. And as the Bilo v Elder fight has shown high level spellcaster fights tend to be far shorter than any other. The higher in level the more instant kill spells are available. I think the need for equipment balances things pretty well. If your wizard ally is unprotected he might not live long, especially if you yourself hide while he faces 2 opponoments. Even with buffs he`s at best equal to your magic item boosted character; one dispel cancels most of this. |
| Pitlords12-10-03, 04:19 PM | |
| Moherajikuyx12-10-03, 04:22 PM | Reach - Jindl got it right, AV wrong. A reach weapon doubles reach and with the exception of the spiked chain, it doubles also the no-threaten zone. Note that the dimension of the weapon has no effect on reach. [i]from the srd, equipment (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/Equipment.rtf): Reach Weapons: Glaives, guisarmes, lances, longspears, ranseurs, spiked chains, and whips are reach weapons. A reach weapon is a melee weapon that allows its wielder to strike at targets that aren’t adjacent to him or her. Most reach double the wielder’s natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away. |
| Moherajikuyx12-10-03, 04:22 PM | Originally posted by fluiddragon I just don't want to run the battle of 4 spell casting sneaks that wait till the buffs run out and they starve to death match. Brrr! Awful! U'r right Fluid. I think the best would be to allow only low int cohorts. What about int 1-2? Like the animals? And the undead... If a wizo cohort is more intelligent then the gladiator... Who's the real gladiator? Who's the cohort? :D |
| Galamdring12-10-03, 04:29 PM | Greetings everyone. I have a few questions that need some enlightenment... Since many of the high level gladiators are spellcasters that can cast dispel magic, i fear that using potions of flying is not a good option... So, i was wondering if i could get a flying mount, such as a griffin or a pegasi? If so, what are the skill checks required to pull this off? What are the costs associated? I have also seen people with skill tools for handle animal, but i have not seen them in the srd... Perhaps my eyes are playing tricks on me.... What would be the cost of such tools? Thanks in advance for the answers, as always... :) |
| Moherajikuyx12-10-03, 04:46 PM | Hi Galamdring! There are mastercraft tools in the equipment, theoretically for any skill, but you have to come up with an appropriate tool. Masterwork handler whistle and whip could do the trick with handle, Masterwork reins with ride. You may buy a pegasus, hippogriff or griffon on the market, at a cost, and train it if you can reach handle animal 25 taking 10, else buy the training too. Check out the srd (http://www.wizards.com/D20/article.asp?x=srd35) for more info (don't know if there are others sold). |
| Caterane12-10-03, 04:51 PM | Here are my gladiatorial rules for this week: The crowd counts as one NPC and starts indifferent to both combatants. Certain actions may change this attitude towards a character thus inspiring him or making him feel uncomfortable. Every character`s attitude is tracked seperately. The modifiers based on their reaction are: Helpful:.........+2 attack and damage Friendly:........+1 attack and damage Indifferent:....no change Unfriendly:....-1 attack and damage Hostile:.........-2 attack and damage The actions that change the reaction are: Rolls nat 1 on attack roll: Attitude towards gladiator worsens Confirms a critical hit: Attitude towards gladiator improves Successful feint in combat: Attitude towards opponoment worsens Successful demoralize opponoment (Intimidate): Attitude towards opponoment worsens Successful tumble through opponoments square (Dc25): Attitude towards you improves Successful Perform (weapon drill) check (Dc20): Attitude towards you improves Destroy opponoments weapon: Attitude towards you improves Trip opponoment: Attitude towards you improves Disarm opponoment: Attitude towards you improves Pin an opponoment: Attitude towards you improves and attitude towards opponoment worsens Bull rush opponoment 10ft: Attitude towards you improves For every 5 rounds not engaging in combat: Attitude towards you worsens Flee from opponoment: Attitude towards you worsens If your manager is called Irlina: Attitude towards you worsens by 5 steps Notes: All changes are one step changes. If you fall prone during a Bull rush, attidtude towards you worsens. If you are tripped or disarmed during your own attempt, attitude towards you worsens. I am open to suggestions. |
| sshuit12-10-03, 04:59 PM | @mo Sorry to be negative, but the crowd rules seem to favor whoever is winning. So if someone becomes tripped for instance, it is even more difficult for the tripped character to get back up without being retripped. In a similar vein, after a successful critical, you're likely ahead, and then you become even more ahead for your subsequent attacks.... It seems like it does not seem "fair" ... Maybe "accurate" for crowd reactions, but I'm sure not fond of fighting under those rules as they stand. |
| Magagumo12-10-03, 05:02 PM | One note on Leadership, (of which I aprrove and will vote shortly), is that your cohorts do start with NPC cash, so they won't be equipment-less ;). But after that, you will have to pay for upgrades out of your own pocket. As I am continuing to develop my own Arena fight, I want to mention one caveat for leadership cohorts: Do not allow cohorts to take any Craft feat (Aside from perhaps Scribe Scroll, since you must be a caster as well to use them). Sure, allowing a cleric cohort to Craft his own Magical Armor and Weaponry is cool, but the temptation to have him upgrade the character's stufff begins... Soon, you have a Fighter/Disciple of Mephistopheles (15th) whose Cleric (12th level) had saved him over 40k by crafting stuff. Oh, she made a dragon skeleton too ;). Thusly, I suggest we ban all Craft feats (aside from Scribe Scroll) from the cohorts (if they are approved). This will save headaches, cries of unbalanced gold, and allows those who are willing to specialize in crafting (Will Elder be making Golems? ;)) to be worth something. |
| MotherBast12-10-03, 05:17 PM | I have been away since Sunday, very personal stuff in the RW.... now that I'm back, I want to commint on a few of the discussions taking place. On the polls, I aparently misunderstood the question, because I ment to vote that undead could be of any type, as long as there was a cost element to represent the aquisition of the corpse. I said NO custom undead only if no cost was applied. I will make my vote more clear as soon as I am done here.... Next, I think the Leadership feat is easly setteled with only two rules, none of them house rules to effect the game.... first is that in this arena, fights must be one on one, but gladiators may bring in one ally, as long as the alli is not an intellegent thinking opponit..... it dosen't necessarly have to be a mount, but it must be someting the true gladiator must control, and that dosen't formulate stratiges for itself.... after all, it is an arena, with one on one combat rules. Also, this would leave the alli advantage with those classes that gain them naturally, as only they could have allies that have int of 3 or higher, due to there class features. The second is that only the actual gladiator is paid the winnings, so he/she will of course have to pay for all gear his/her cohort uses. Even with both of these restrictions, I think Candy would still pick up leadership at 6th, so she can finally put that Cha score of 21 to good use. Neither of these rules would really be house rules, as we are assuming this has always been a test of two builds, one on one, it makes sense that no intelegent cohorts be allowed, and since they aren't intellegent, you of course have to provide for them..... Lastly, I wana say I like the prepared spells thing. Tipacly, in most campains I run, the casters in the party wont know what they are facing the day they prepare spells.... and I'm not a big fan of "I'm out of spells, let's just rest here till tomarrow." I can usually find something to break up a good night's rest, if you feel me. The purpose here is to determin how builds might function in any given campain. By allowing prepared casters to chose there spells after knowing there opponits, were really straying away from the true randomness of a campain. We need to see how casters can react on the fly, with the "standard spells" they would prepare every morning. A lot of people argue, "but If I knew I was probably going to find undead," or, "If I know I'm going to the plane of fire...." but even when a caster knows where they are going, they usually don't know everything they will find there, they only narrow the field. That is already represented in the arena by the ability to look at the roster and see who you are likely to face at next level. Usually you only have about 4 or 5 foes to chose from... So you can quickly get an idea of what stratagy is most likely to be effective, but there is always a chance you will get that bad draw, just like in a dungon there is always a chance you will fight that one monster you had no idea would be there. Besides, casters can always round out there stratiges with scrolls, though the elliment of prepared in advance will still be present in scrolls, just as it would in a campain. This also puts the advantage of versitility back into the hands of Sorcerors, one of only 2 advantages they have over wizards. Though Candy is also a spontanious caster, a bards week spells, and so few known and casted per day make them much less versital even when prepared casters memorize there spells in advance. So, in conclusion, I not only support the continuation of the Half memorized spells, I also suggest I be given the chance to be completly outvoted by putting the idea of "completly memorized in advance spells" to a vote.... I'm expecting it will be someting like 2 to 13, against me, but at least my voice will have been heard. Humm.... now to the polls thread and to check the pairings. [Edit] Ok, my votes have been updated, and a couple have changed to more clearly reflect my thoughts. As for pairings.... Candess would have to fight the one guy at that level who bought a remove blindness/deafness potion..... great. Brackin on the other hand is quite excited to face Bilo. He is finaly fighting one the the characters I would concider Iconic in the arena. Bilo is well known and respected/feared by all. It will be great fun to crush him like a bug..... JK of course. And I'm modding Lora's fight, of course. What is this, the 7th time? At least tell me she isen't bringing a wand of cure light this time? |
| Alathar Vierce12-10-03, 05:43 PM | Bah, then you told me wrong a long time ago Mo :P For your the one that told me otherwise, could of had quite an advantage with AV for a long time :P |
| SnarkHunter12-10-03, 05:47 PM | 1 question Cat, are the 5 rounds cumulative? i.e. if I spend our rounds buffing then fight then after a few rounds of fighting, withdraw to drink a CLW would I be penalized? Mmm going to be interesting... |
| Caterane12-10-03, 05:51 PM | No, not cumulative. Hit-and-run tactics are not penalized. |
| Moherajikuyx12-10-03, 06:13 PM | Mb, thanks for the support. Originally posted by MotherBast And I'm modding Lora's fight, of course. What is this, the 7th time? At least tell me she isen't bringing a wand of cure light this time? :rofl: Guess what? I changed order (up-down) to try to change the "usual runner"... It didn't work! I'll have to begin randomizing also the moderators... :| Originally posted by Alathar Vierce Bah, then you told me wrong a long time ago Mo :P For your the one that told me otherwise, could of had quite an advantage with AV for a long time :P :( I don't remember about this one. Sorry, I hope you don't feel spoiled. After all, AV and Rito are the only two survivors from those times. But, are you sure? The stuff in the MM was always considered core... It's strange. (You're talking about the mounts, right?) |
| Alathar Vierce12-10-03, 06:16 PM | It was edited back after my first fight with Moony, in fact I nearly copy and pasted your respone heh ;) If anything bud no worries, just makes the new chain warrior something new to see :) |
| Caterane12-10-03, 06:58 PM | Tavirol??? Ubermunch??? What the... WHO`S THIS??? HARGH!! Not even core, this dude. At least give him a non-stupid name. |
| fluiddragon12-10-03, 07:58 PM | Next, I think the Leadership feat is easly setteled with only two rules, none of them house rules to effect the game.... first is that in this arena, fights must be one on one, but gladiators may bring in one ally, as long as the alli is not an intellegent thinking opponit..... it dosen't necessarly have to be a mount, but it must be someting the true gladiator must control, and that dosen't formulate stratiges for itself.... after all, it is an arena, with one on one combat rules. Also, this would leave the alli advantage with those classes that gain them naturally, as only they could have allies that have int of 3 or higher, due to there class features. The second is that only the actual gladiator is paid the winnings, so he/she will of course have to pay for all gear his/her cohort uses. I think this is a good way to handle the leadership feat. I don't know if we should limit the creatures intellegence though, that is to arbitrary, but it should be something under the gladiators control, and not a sentient being. I think that is good enough. Some cohort material allies might have a decent INT score, but as long as they are not sentient, and under control it should be fine, then a mod doesn't have to run a 4 way battle, and eliminates getting a wizard/cleric cohort to craft items. And as far as delay tactics go I still don't like the gladiator rules Cat is using. If running a delaying battle takes along time this will take just as long. I don't want to have to keep track of yet more modifiers. I certainly wont use these rules, and if they were forced on mods I just wouldn't mod anymore. The way I would handle the situation would be to simply tell the player, nicely, that I'm not going to run a battle where he waits for a few hours. He will have to come up with better tactics or take his chances and use no resources and wait for an opponent he can beat. Nobody likes seeing losses on their record but a loss where you don't use any resources means almost nothing. The loss of resources is what hurts. -fd |
| Jindl12-10-03, 08:14 PM | Re: Cat's crowd rules - I didn't see a single rule or way in which a spellcaster could improve favor. Everything is melee based. I guess its okay if Mara is fighting Brackin, or something, but if a caster is in the fight, you can't use these rules. @MotherBast - On the prepared spells thing - One of the main issues I have with writing the prepared spells is that your opponent will know what they are. If my caster doesn't have the divination means to know what opponents he will fight, then how do my opponents have the means to know what spells I have memorized (and thus buy equip and prepare accordingly). Until a method is found to keep my prepped spells a secret from my opponent, I am against marking what they are. It makes it difficult to prepare tactics, as Cat already pointed out. @Alathar - Now that we have got the enlarged reach weapon right, how about bringing your Iconic out of retirement? We're still waiting on him at 9th level :) Re: Leadership - How about we limit it to non-classed cohorts only. So a blink dog cohort would be okay, but not a Human Ftr 4. This would make cohorts more like the traditional allies that class features and spells can provide (there is no spell which can summon a 6th level anything... only monsters and such). What do you guys think? Only non-classed, cohorts? The MM lists specifically which creatures can be cohorts and what their ECL's are... -Jindl PS: Tactics sent for Iku to Draloth. |
| MotherBast12-10-03, 09:32 PM | @Jindil.... I had also thought of that, but we have been alowing everyone to see what gear each gladiator has since the begining, and that is the same thing. Candy knows that Hurtz has a potion of remove blindness/deafness, so she wont bother casting that spell on him.... he has a potion of fly, so why bother using mine? Bracking can see that Bilo never learned the Fly spell, and that he dosen't have a scroll of it, only levitate, but that he does have a scroll of greater invis, so most likely it will be an invisable ground war..... What is the difference? If Jindil, the druid I mean, can see his opponit's equipment, there base attack, all relevent stats, why can' they see his spells. Jindil knows exactly what he is facing, they don't. And as for cohorts, even if limited to non-class creatures, you still run the risk of intelligent cohorts that act independatly of the ture gladiator. Then it becomes more of a two on one, or worse two on two battle. An unintellegent cohort is more an extension of the gladiator than its own personage. Besides, if we allow any kind of cohort, as long as its non-classed, we would be allowing some pretty danerous monsters in the arena, that may overshadow there leaders. This is what the DMG says about what can and can't be a cohort. Page #104, "There are no limitations on the class, race, or gender of a character's cohorts," Now that I look at it though, on Page #200, it says the leadership ability can not attract a a cohort with an intellegence less than 4 to serve as a mount. I'm assuming that means that the feat can't attract a cohort with less than 4 intellegence at all.... That would make my suggestion of only INT 1-2 creatures a houserule, which I am loath to incorparate. It seems a median must be found eh? |
| fluiddragon12-10-03, 09:46 PM | How about we limit it to non-classed cohorts only. So a blink dog cohort would be okay, but not a Human Ftr 4. This would make cohorts more like the traditional allies that class features and spells can provide (there is no spell which can summon a 6th level anything... only monsters and such). What do you guys think? Only non-classed, cohorts? The MM lists specifically which creatures can be cohorts and what their ECL's are... And with the leadership only allowing Int 4 plus I think MB's idea should be implemented. Jindl's idea is better, and definitly makes it more like the class features of other characters. @ Mag. I sent out Dragon Rain and Gage's tactics. |
| SnarkHunter12-10-03, 11:50 PM | Tactics sent for Hanz and Bilo. I think they'll make interesting fights. Tactics recieved for Candy, Hurtz, and Bruno, I think they'll make interesting fights. But right now I'm tired, so I'm going to go to sleep for the next 10 hours.:zzz: |
| Irlina12-11-03, 03:24 AM | Actually I don't like the leadership feat too much simply because I will further complicate fights. Higher level character with decent equipment will already modding a fight correctly very hard. And for this reason character as cohorts are plain out- and even monsters will be hard, but perhaps managable. So I would like to ask the oppinion of senior mods, since they will best know what they can handle. @Cat, Glad-rules (minus the last one) They're too complicated and only for melee characters. And they're not core. However, we should find a rule preventing too long fights. Why not simply say after 50 round the arena announcer says: In 10 rounds the fight ends. A draw - meening actually a loss for both. And everyone can include in the tactics the all-out option for the last 10 rounds so no fight till the end of the universe anymore. Because right now the perfect char would be a mage castinge rope trick, pulling the rope in and having a ring of sustenance. He can wait till enemy has died for hunger. @Jindl: So your new Aasimar character has drawn the auto-win option. ;) |
| Caterane12-11-03, 07:49 AM | Ok, Ebelin vs Iron is the perfect example how impaired my character is. My tactic would have been filling every slot with magic missiles and fly up, going invisible when he approaches, retreat to the other side and fire again volley after volley. Since I am able to do something around 150 damage with all spells (more than Iron can heal) with no means of failure it would have been a good tactic. But the prememorizing prevents that. Now I thought hard for 2 days what my plan B should be but I have no idea. Ebelin`s main strength is surprise and he´s been rid of that. My whole character concept is null and void. If I would`ve known this house rule by character creation I would have created another character. But this rule came after playing him for 3 months and after I specialized in surprise and versaitality. I feared that Ebelin - his power cut in half - is now not able to compete anymore, look at my posts prior to the pairings. And I`ve been right. So why bother with this disabled character any more? One could compare it with a character that took Mounted combat, Ride-by, Spirited charge and Trample and then a house rule comes up that prevents him from bringing mounts into the arena. On top of that it is unrealistic. The pairings are set at wednesday. Now Ebelin has 2 whole days to memorize spells according to his opponoment. The wizards strength is versitality. You can`t rob them of that. And how come the others come to know of my spells??? Ah yes, here`s a small story how Iron knows my tactic: High noon in the refrectory, the one time all gladiators sit united at one table and share one of their basic needs. "MY NEXT SPELL IS MAGE ARMOR!" If only this annoying voice wouldn`t disturb them everytime. Though no one says a word they all know it comes from Ebelin`s room - the closest one to the dining hall - and... "NOW I AM MEMORIZING GHOUL TOUCH!!" Quietly the gladiators continue to eat their meals, annoyed by the disturbance and as Ebelin`s melodic singsang voice anounced his invisibility spell, Iron had enough of it. He stood up from the table and left his half-eaten plate and refactory alike behind to retreat to the silence of his room. But as he passed by Ebelin`s room he heard another "NOW I AM LEARNING A DISPEL MAGIC SPELL TO BRING IRON`S DEFENSES DOWN. I HOPE HE DOESN`T STORE A COUNTERSPELL IN HIS RING". Iron just rolled his eyes and walked on. "Ye really should learn not da speak while sleepin', stupid elf." I`ll leave Ebelin for another week but if this pre-mem thing continues I`ll retire him. Another character option less, that doesn`t matter anymore here. Perhaps I play an ancient wizard or a dire bat druid. At least let us vote on this. If everyone agrees to the pre-memorizing I`ll be fine with it, despite having to retire my beloved character because an innovative all-round character is obviously a failure in this arena which favors high DCs and brute strength. BTW: In my campaign Ebelin rocked!! Was the most effective character and a jack-of-all-trades. |
| LLMadCow12-11-03, 07:57 AM | Okay, I should have asked this a while back -- Can anyone in the arena write simple programs? Give us a nice executable that should be fairly easy to write? This could solve our problem of spells. I have a solution, a little complex (The whole idea, not the program), but a solution none-the-less.... Edit - Idea. All right programmers - here is what I have in mind to solve our Spell List woes... 1st - Check out this link. Binary Translator (http://nickciske.com/tools/binary.php) 2nd - Envision this... A player makes his list of spells. Then he takes his list to the linked web page and runs it through that program. Lastly, he copies the results into a NEW PROGRAM and enters a 4 digit key. The program runs the info using the key as a guideline and spits the info back out. The program also has the ability to take the results it spits out and, with the correct key, turn the results back into the original form. Program - The program would take the binary results and turn the entire sting into sets of 8. Now that we have sets of 8, simply take the entered key - 2578 - and flip the 2nd, 5th, 7th and 8th characters from 1 to 0 and 0 to 1 and spit out a result. Post the new, slightly encrypted results, and we are good to go. When we send tactics, we e-mail they kay and everything is fine. The moderator just reverses the process using the given key and they have a spell list. I guess what it all comes down to is that we need some sort of encryption program. Better yet, if we had a program that simply encrypts a portion of our post, vote on what is allowed to be encrypted or what must not be encrypted and the rest, character by character is all encrypted with a resulting key. Email the key with tactics and everything would be fine. Someone has to be able to do it... |
| LLMadCow12-11-03, 08:21 AM | Quote by Caterane Before I rant on and on I better come to an end: With these conditions Ebelin is in no shape to win this fight so he hereby surrenders. Congratulations Mo. turns into New quote by Caterane I`ll leave Ebelin for another week but if this pre-mem thing continues I`ll retire him. Another character option less, that doesn`t matter anymore here. Perhaps I play an ancient wizard or a dire bat druid. So, surrender rescinded? Just checking. :) |
| Caterane12-11-03, 08:31 AM | @LL: I thought about CDGing myself during the fight... |
| Moherajikuyx12-11-03, 08:31 AM | Well, I'd rather listen to suggestions than this. Tactics sent to Tellish. |
| Jindl12-11-03, 08:32 AM | Originally posted by Irlina @Jindl: So your new Aasimar character has drawn the auto-win option. ;) It certainly felt like a challenging fight, when I was trying to write the tactics. It takes a lot to win when you have 7 hps... -Jindl |
| Caterane12-11-03, 08:40 AM | double post |
| Caterane12-11-03, 08:41 AM | Cat, sorry you feel that way. The prememorization rule already has quite some support, and what makes your rumbling ridiculous is that Iron has spells memorized too, and they're the same from last week, I believe. Why don't you just try out a tactic? Surrendering will do no good. If you don't want to use resources, just tell Tellish so. What's the problem? That you're not surprised by Iron's prepared spells? Well, guess what, neither am I from Ebelin's. Dispel Magic and Mage armor! Unbelievable! Why don't you just memorize the typical spells? It's less than half after all, you still have some surprise, more than half. And, don't mix story time and actual time, you've got 2 days but Ebelin doesn't. I'm really open to suggestions about how to make the prepared spells secret in an easy way. Rumbling isn't good to find solutions. I find Motherbast's considerations really appropriate. Why shall you know the exact chance to hit of the warriors if they don't know what are your spells? In a campaign, I'll be somewhat surprised by a wizard, but not completely; he will have the right spells, but not all of them. So this 50% 50% is a good approximation. We're not voting because there's too much prepared casters and this makes the vote ridiculous, no one will vote for it even though they know it's correct. I'm sorry of this. @Mo: You can`t compare Iron to Ebelin. First of all Iron is a formidable foe without spells and secondly, the main thing, Iron and most prepared casters like the Elder for example are not that dependent on surprise as Ebelin is. The Elder memorizes a Ph.killer and his Dc22 makes second thinkings unnecessary. As I told you I would not have memorized Mage armor and Dispel magic but what would you`ve done if you read that: 1: Magic missile, Magic missile, x, x 2: Magic missile, Magic missile, x, x 3: Fly, x, x Hard guess what Ebelin`s tactic would be so just cast Spell immunity (MM) - something which you would`ve never done. So I was FORCED to memorize standard spells like Dispel magic and such. Dispel magic is so useless because of your ring. Oh Mage armor, so I can go into melee vs Iron. Sure. The fact is: this character is not effective with these rules. Period. |
| Moherajikuyx12-11-03, 08:46 AM | Sorry... But this rules seem to be the best way to simulate the normal things. After all, it's core that the wizards prepare their spells beforehandedly: as it's core that the equipment is bought before it's needed. Normally in an arena you would not know your opponent's equipment, but here you do. So why should the prepared spellcaster be different? As I already told, I'm really open to suggestions on how to make these spells secret. |
| Jindl12-11-03, 09:02 AM | Cat- In order to do your magic missile tactic, you will need the spells you have memorized. Fly - to stay away from melee Mage armor + shield - So he doesn't kill you with his might bow. Mirror Image - ditto on the bow thing Endurance - more hps, if he does hit you with the bow. You don't have improved invis, so after the first missile you will need to be prepared for Iron's counterattack, whether its ranged, or an airwalk scroll with a charge... BTW: I sent you a suggestion on PM. -Jindl |
| Moherajikuyx12-11-03, 09:17 AM | Originally posted by Jindl BTW: I sent you a suggestion on PM. Well, now I'm sure to win... Unless the blind Goddess strikes. ;) Jindl I like your suggestion of unclassed cohorts only. Edit: Shall I add this to the votes? "Would you let Leadership if we allow unclassed cohorts of the MM only?" |
| Caterane12-11-03, 09:26 AM | @Mo: Ok, I`ll be quiet for now but please think this over again or at least try to find another way to handle this. I have no problems that the Harvester has to post his spells, or all of them, really no problem, but Ebelin depends on it and since I love this character and really invested much time into him it would be a pity to see him crippled. Thanks Cat |
| sshuit12-11-03, 09:28 AM | Still need tactics for Dorrin, Jagath and Octavian. Come on people I've got all morning free to goof off and mod fights! |
| cellardweller12-11-03, 09:29 AM | Originally posted by LLMadCow I guess what it all comes down to is that we need some sort of encryption program. I'll code something up after work tomorrow. |
| Galamdring12-11-03, 09:34 AM | Moherajikuyx: I have seen the monsters section in the srd, but they don't mention the prices to purchase such mount. Also, where can i find the prices if i want someone else to train the mount for me? Thanks... |
| sshuit12-11-03, 09:36 AM | Spell casters can increase spell flexibility with scrolls already, I don't see what the big fuss is about. And scrolls are dead cheap. For the price of 1 level 2 potion, a spellcaster can craft 1/2 a dozen level 2 scrolls. What is there to complain about? Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Sorry... But this rules seem to be the best way to simulate the normal things. After all, it's core that the wizards prepare their spells beforehandedly: as it's core that the equipment is bought before it's needed. Normally in an arena you would not know your opponent's equipment, but here you do. So why should the prepared spellcaster be different? As I already told, I'm really open to suggestions on how to make these spells secret. |
| fluiddragon12-11-03, 09:40 AM | How about this for a solution to the spells. Send a password protected file on tuesday night to Mo with your memorize spells. He will not have the password and cannot open the file. You supply him with the password after your fight is over and he can verify the actual spells memorized vs the send spells. Personally I think unless a quick and easy solution is found that certain members of the forum will just get fustrated and leave. Which is not good. Second I really don't see a big deal customizing your spells for an opponent. I know we are trying to similate some aspects of campaign builds. But there are some major differences in the arena and a campagin. We have almost no plain fighters in the arena, as without any special abilities and expensive magic compared to other characters they have a hard time competing. Where in a campaign they can rely on some help from casters. Gladitorial combat is different from adventuring. Certain feats, spells, classes are more effective 1 on 1 than in a campaign, which is balanced around 4 iconic classes working in concert with each other, they maximise their comrads strengths and minimize the weaknesses. My Sorc builds might work well for a major bad guy but would be crippled as a pc with out access to scrolls of any spell. My tactics would not work against a group of PC's only 1 on 1. Fact of the matter one on one combat cannot replicate campaign settings. Penalizing certain classes (prepared casters) with a house rule is unfair. Its bad enough we can see each others equipment. Let the casters simply put thier spells in their tactics. It takes too much away from primary wizards. Clerics are overpowered on purpose so that in a campaign they get played. The designers have always said this. If all thier spells are gone they are still capable combatants. Same with Druids. Wizards on the otherhand ONLY have their spells. Thats it. I can understand Cats fustration. If you build a character around certain rules then thoose rules are changed it kills the build. This rule hamstrings wizards and mildly hinders the other prepared casters. Have we seen wizards dominating the arena? Certainly not. Look at the 3 highest levels. We have 1 wizard. The arena champ is a druid. Look at the fight records. I think Brackin and Gage have the best win loss records, and they are not wizards. I am going to further exploit the differences between arena style play and campaign style play with my builds. This is a good way to have FUN and see how certain builds work in general and try out some tactics and combos we might not in a game and get some good ideas. But it is NOT a campaign. Wizards are not coming close to dominating the arena. And they are hurt the most with having to prememorize. If you are fighting a certain opponnet and want to know what he might do look at old fights and tactics. I usually don't bother with that takes too much time. But the info is there. Look at what you can do and think like the wizards and you have a good chance to figure out what he might do. Its funny but scince Gage has gone up in level how many new wizards are there? Most of our new arcane characters are sorcerers. I proved they are viable and powerfull Mo even said so so its true! Many of the wizards are multiclassing and this puts sorcerers on even gorund in spell levels. Slightly ahead, as they have 1 extra caster level and familliar abilities. Too many rules hinders creativity, and if introduced after character creation then hurts an existing character. We don't want to alienate long standing members of the arena and when it comes down to it what do we gain by having this rule? And what do we loose? Is it worth it? I think not. ok ok I'll get off my soap box now.... -fd |
| Moherajikuyx12-11-03, 09:49 AM | Bah, I declared spells with Curungur too, and I can't see all that difference. Wizards need buffs too, and they will need shield memorized because of the little casting time. No big surprises. They will have the save DC spells memorized too. No big surprise either. These two kinds of spells already more than fills up the half spells to declare, with no surprises. |
| Moherajikuyx12-11-03, 09:55 AM | Originally posted by Galamdring Moherajikuyx: I have seen the monsters section in the srd, but they don't mention the prices to purchase such mount. Also, where can i find the prices if i want someone else to train the mount for me? Thanks... It's all in the MM, in the SRD. I'll copy it. Be careful of the encumbrance: to flight the beast must be at most lightly encumbered and armored. from the SRD, Monsters (G) (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/MonstersG.rtf) TRAINING A GRIFFON Although intelligent, a griffon requires training before it can bear a rider in combat. To be trained, a griffon must have a friendly attitude toward the trainer (this can be achieved through a successful Diplomacy check). Training a friendly griffon requires six weeks of work and a DC 25 Handle Animal check. Riding a griffon requires an exotic saddle. A griffon can fight while carrying a rider, but the rider cannot also attack unless he or she succeeds on a Ride check. Griffon eggs are worth 3,500 gp apiece on the open market, while young are worth 7,000 gp each. Professional trainers charge 1,500 gp to rear or train a griffon. Carrying Capacity: A light load for a griffon is up to 300 pounds; a medium load, 301-600 pounds; and a heavy load, 601-900 pounds. from the SRD, Monsters (H-I) (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/MonstersH-I.rtf) TRAINING A HIPPOGRIFF A hippogriff requires training before it can bear a rider in combat. Training a hippogriff requires six weeks of work and a DC 25 Handle Animal check. Riding a hippogriff requires an exotic saddle. A hippogriff can fight while carrying a rider, but the rider cannot also attack unless he or she succeeds on a Ride check. Hippogriff eggs are worth 2,000 gp apiece on the open market, while young are worth 3,000 gp each. Professional trainers charge 1,000 gp to rear or train a hippogriff. Carrying Capacity: A light load for a hippogriff is up to 300 pounds; a medium load, 301-600 pounds; and a heavy load, 601-900 pounds. from the SRD, Monsters (O-R) (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/MonstersO-R.rtf) TRAINING A PEGASUS Although intelligent, a pegasus requires training before it can bear a rider in combat. To be trained, a pegasus must have a friendly attitude toward the trainer (this can be achieved through a successful Diplomacy check). Training a friendly pegasus requires six weeks of work and a DC 25 Handle Animal check. Riding a pegasus requires an exotic saddle. A pegasus can fight while carrying a rider, but the rider cannot also attack unless he or she succeeds on a Ride check. Pegasus eggs are worth 2,000 gp each on the open market, while young are worth 3,000 gp per head. Pegasi mature at the same rate as horses. Professional trainers charge 1,000 gp to rear or train a pegasus, which serves a good or neutral master with absolute faithfulness for life. Carrying Capacity: A light load for a pegasus is up to 300 pounds; a medium load, 301-600 pounds; and a heavy load, 601-900 pounds. |
| Moherajikuyx12-11-03, 10:03 AM | About the encription idea, it's not new; I tried hard to find an easy way to do it, but I couldn't. We can't force people to do something that complicated for an arena. The actual system is far from perfect, but until we find the way to declare beforehandedly all the spells and to make them secret, it's the best thing I came up with. The system is here to use the core rules, and if we don't make the prepared spellcasters prepare their spells, we're out of core. |
| SnarkHunter12-11-03, 11:22 AM | Mo: That's your interpretation of core rules not ours. Look at who's complaining about this. Its not just prepared casters, its a whole lot of people. You want to know how many? Make a poll. If you'd like, you can throw out every vote cast by a board member with a wizard character. I'd imagine you'll still lose. |
| barrel_master12-11-03, 12:41 PM | Although, it's true that I personaly don't support the current spell memorization system, I think we should give it a chance... honestly, if it becomes obvious that it's horrible we can always change it back. |
| Magagumo12-11-03, 02:14 PM | I'd say we just toss out the pre-prepared spells. It is not really balancing anything (this has been mentioned several times before), and it is starting to put shackles on some people. Bruno was slightly hindered by my pre-prepared spell selection (cursed Glitterdust ;)), btu I jknow that I could adapt in the future. But why should I have to? Bruno has a win/loss ratio that is very comparable to any gladiator in the arena. In fact, I do believe our melee combatants have had the best win/loss ratios in the end (go AV ;)). If this is only going to cripple people who like to create new tactics every fight (which I applaud you for Cat and Jindl, it's always a fun surprise to see your tactics, and I have tried to do the same with Bruno :)), then why are we doing it? It's a silly house rule that onyl upsets people.. that's all there really is to it. As for Non-classed cohorts, I suppose that would work, as I can see the difficulties in tracking two separate actions of say, two wizards ;) @ Barrel I do believe this is the second week of the system, the chance has been given and it seems many people hate it. |
| fluiddragon12-11-03, 02:26 PM | I'm prefacing this by saying it hasn't effected me but I have noticed a situation. If your gladiator has lost a few fights they are pretty much done for. Fresh characters enter and have a significant advantage over somebody like Rito who has very little in the way of resources. It can get to the point where the only way you can win is to simply get lucky and have the other guy be unlucky. I would like to see some new life put into these characters. I propose to give the losers of a fight 10% or 15% of what they would have gotten if they won the fight, after achiving 4th level. This could be rationalized as income from betting, roberies, gifts, earnings from skills or what ever. It is not much but it can off set losses some what, and keep the character in the game. It is low enough that it won't cheapen the vicotrs win. Sometimes even 1 potion is enough to turn the tides in a fight and non-spell casters have to resort to very expensive potions for movement and defense, and 1 or 2 lost fights can cripple them. I also propose to make this retro active next week to give some of the stagnating characters a chance to get ahead. If it doens't start untill the character is level 4 then it is not very prone to abuse, and gives some incentive to get there. You can always remake a L2 character to start out with fresh equipment, and winnin 1 fight is no big deal. But the competition gets fierce around 4th level where flight is common and the stakes raise. What do you all think? DnD is all about the loot. If youdon't have it you might as well be a few levels behind. -fd |
| barrel_master12-11-03, 03:40 PM | Concerning a fight I'm going to be running... I reveiwed the 'Nevrlokagyft, Tellish_of_Ket chllgs Voliana, sshuit' fight and noticed a few things... 1. Voliana's tactics involve a rapier however the character doesn't own one... I did the math and there is no money set aside for a rapier either... what should I do? 2. Nevrlokagyft is a Githzerai, I'm not sure if things have changed but are Githzerai allowed in the arena? If it's not legal I'd be willing to let it run this time as Nevrlokagyft accepted the challenge. If they are allowed, where can I find proper information on them? I looked in the SRD under the 'G Monsters' section and under the phsyionic section but couldn't find anything. |
| Jindl12-11-03, 03:43 PM | @barrel_master - I would ask sshuit what to do about the rapier, since it's not friday yet, he should have time to edit his tactics. Looking at last week's fight, Voliana didn't have a rapier then either. So, apparantly she hasn't bought/crafted one yet. sshuit will definately need to edit his tactics... As for the githzerai, yeah it's allowed. Due to copyright protection, it was not put into the SRD (neither was the mindflayer or the githyanki). But it is allowed as an ECL 3 character. You can find it in the 3.5 MM. If you don't have a MM, then ask Tellish to email the important racial info to you. -Jindl |
| MotherBast12-11-03, 05:11 PM | Something I noticed today that I think is worth mentioning. On Page #177 of PHB it states, "Likewise, if a creature's saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell, such as charm person, you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells." I have noticed it a lot of tactics "If I can tell so-and-so spell succeeds".... this should make things much simpler. You can tell if targeted spells succeed, but you can't tell if area spells or effect spells succeed. |
| SnarkHunter12-11-03, 05:21 PM | I fear even a non-classed cohort would be quite a burden to run. How differen't is a werebear from a 10th level fighter anyway? Also what would happen when you won a fight and got a level? Would you have to get a new cohort then? I think for balances sake if nothing else we should allow characters who wish to invest take the feat, and get whichever kind of they want. Give them elite stats (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8)to start out. All equipment has to be bought with player funds. Note that there's no gaurentee on the saftey of your cohort-quite the opposite, and should he die, you would have a -1 to your leadership score to replace him. So it makes fights more complicated, but they're only available to higher level characters who's fights are plenty complicated as it is. Edit: Mmm good to know mother. |
| Moherajikuyx12-11-03, 05:31 PM | Snark, how can you say it's my interpretation? I hope you don't play with sorcerous wizards who may cast on the fly... Besides, I don't see many persons complaining, only many posts of the same persons. |
| Magagumo12-11-03, 05:53 PM | Well Moh, perhaps those who don't complain aren't exactly favoring it either. I believe you and MotherBast have stated your preference for it, while Cat, Snark, myself and others have noted a dislike. Abstention never equals approval. @mother I agree, that is interesting. It explains why sleep is a targeted spell (no Bluff "checks for them ;)). Interestingly enough, this means you don't know if someone has evasion (I mean this in campaign world), so you could fire tons of fireballs at them, and never know for certain why it fails (are they a race whcih is immune to fire and you don't have the knowledge to ID them? Are they evading my shots? Are they an illusion which I can't see through, etc.) This pleases me.. I hate when the rogue gets a targeted spell to the face immediately after they make the evasion rex save.. Keeps my evocation sorceror player guessing ;) |
| Ethendril12-11-03, 05:53 PM | @cellardwellar: I've emailed you tactics for Dusk the Adamant. Have fun! |
| SnarkHunter12-11-03, 06:02 PM | Mo lets be reasonable, in my campaigns poor spell selection is punished. However. This is not my campaign and nor is it yours. It is a test of characters abilities in the best situation. The fun-and make no mistake I'm only here for the fun-part of this arena is discovering the potential of a charactrer to suceede with good tactics and preperation. When a wizard loses half his spells (and with a bad match up half his spells will be useless and with no way to convert them either) he loses the ability to make effective tactics and he stops having fun. I thought that was the point of campaigns too. Keep this up and there will be a lot of retirees, and this thread too will die a sad little death. Now then if you won't do a vote I will. After the first week based on posts in this thread, Mag: not in favor Barrel: not in favor Me: not in favor Mother:in favor Jindle: not in favor of current method Cat: not in favor sshuit: in favor fluid: not in favor mercy: not in favor |
| Jindl12-11-03, 06:22 PM | Originally posted by Magagumo @mother I agree, that is interesting. It explains why sleep is a targeted spell (no Bluff "checks for them ;)). Um, sleep isn't a targetted spell. It is an area of effect spell. So, yeah, they could try to bluff you. -Jindl (I never like to miss an opportunity to 1-up good ol' Magagumo :P ) |
| Prexx12-11-03, 06:26 PM | [edit] Commented on an issue that was already resolved, removed post. |
| Caterane12-11-03, 06:36 PM | I just don`t understand how this should in any case be able to reflect a real campaign? A campaign is too dynamic to be simulated by anything else but a campaign itself, and certainly not by an arena. Here are no party members. If my necromancer memorized a useless mage armor the party monk surely`s glad for it. And my fighter buddy will protect me meanwhile. The Heroism spell goes to the barbarian and not on myself. In a campaign I don`t memorize spells according to a one on one fight. And I also memorize spells like knock or tongues who will never appear here. In a campaign there are no ancient wizards who can`t barely keep themselves up. In a campaign you cannot buy the one perfect item you sought and which perfectly complements your abilities - most of the items are found and may not be that useful. In a campaign there are random encounters, many of which are against multiple foes. In a campaign strange things may happen and/or the terrain changes. I could go on and on but since you`re all roleplayers yourself you surely know that it is impossible - not even close - to simulate a dynamic campaign with a simple gladiatorial arena. I don`t even test builds here. Ebelin is a bladesinger in reality and he doesn`t have a level of monk because there`s no need to grapple - unlike in the arena. And half his feats are non-core. His equipment is not even close to his counterpart here. I adepted him to the different circumstances here. I am here to have fun. I love innovative ideas. I love chatting with you all. And I love to play D&D. That are the only reasons I am here. But the only function this pre-mem rule has is to narrow my tactical options, rid me of innovative ideas and spoil the character I build around this very tactics from the beginning on. |
| Jindl12-11-03, 06:39 PM | Re: Targetted spells Since Snark feels necessary to post simply that I am not in favor, I wanted to give my reasons, as they are quite different from Snark's reasons. I don't believe pre-posting half your spells ruins your tactics. The Elder used pretty good tactics last week, and so did Iron. And we both knew half of each other's spells. Cat and I have been pm'ing all day, and he has effective tactics for Ebelin which make use of his publicly memorized spells (and takes into consideration Iron's publicly mem'd spells.) So, I don't think it hurts tactics. It just means that you need to do a good job of figuring out versatile spells to publicly memorize. I don't think it hurts your versatility either. As some have mentioned scrolls are cheap and can make up for any holes you feel exist in your mem'd spells. For example, the Elder used a scroll: polymorph, so he wouldn't have to memorize it. My main concern is those who are incapable of divination knowing what spells my character will memorize on a certain day. This is not plausible to me. But since they only know half of what I will memorize, I don't think this hurts my character. Heck, if they just read a couple of my past fights, then they'll have a really good idea of what half of my spells will be anyway. I don't mean to imply that characters shouldn't have good knowledge of their opponents. It's easy to know what equipment someone has, or what their skills, saves, and bab are. These things are static (that is they don't change on a daily basis, but rather after the long period of time it takes to gain a level, or create/buy equipment). But spells change daily, and that means that it is not believable that an illiterate orc barbarian will know what spells a wizard has memorized 2 days from know when they fight. That being said, until we find a better way to hide your spells, I am dealing with Mo's solution. Should a method of hiding spells become available, I will be in favor of it. I am expressly against hiding other, less variable things like equipment, skills, bab, saves, etc. Only those things which can change daily deserve to be hidden. In the meantime, I hope everyone else can just deal with Mo's solution. I think it is being made into a bigger deal than really necessary. I mean, given that there were only 2 possible opponents for Bilo (Ebelin or Harvester, since they cannot fight each other), how hard is it really to pick half of your spells? There is no advantage to either side, as you also get to know what half of their spells are. I just think this is getting blown out of proportion. We didn't see any wizards/clerics get blown away last week. As a matter of fact, the straight classed prepared casters all won their fights, even against spontaneous casters (Johan vs Candy, for example). So, just take a step back and think about how big this issue really is. It's just not a huge deal to publicly list half your spells. Please change your opinion of my vote to read "Content, until a better method is approved". -Jindl |
| SnarkHunter12-11-03, 07:00 PM | Noted Jindle, I did that pretty quickly. Mostly it was to illustrate that Mo's reliance on some sort of silent, unspoken majority on this issue seems a bit of a straw man. (Didn't nixon say the same thing? ;)) Of those who care to comment most are not in favour. Also Jindle I think your comparisons are not really apt. If Jindle was in a fight and discovered, oh heavens death ward will not be necessary, he could still change it into a summon ally 5 and get a Dire Lion. Johan too if he had been in any danger during the fight could have converted an otherwise useless spell to heal himself. Wizards get the very short end of the stick on this one. Why don't we try a more simple vote. Do you think this arena is for fun or to test builds? ( I know this over simplifies, and its generaly both, but for Mo it seems to be mostly the later and for others mostly the former) I vote fun, and that this requirement makes it less so. Edit: BTW Fluid I think thats a good idea. Bilo's cash strapped nature has certainly impaired him on at least the last 3 fights. |
| Magagumo12-11-03, 07:03 PM | @Jindl Ha, I love the "Area: Creatures within 10' of one another", creature areas are the best ones of all ^_~. Curious note, unrelated to the arena directly- I hear a lot of people talk about not purchasing items in their games. How the fighter doesn't buy winged boots, but is happy enough to find them in a hoard some day. Am I accurately representing other peoples' campaigns with this above description? Because the games that I participate in and run have allowed for players to buy items out of the DMG. I guess I'm just curious about people's rationale behind the "no-purchase" clause (Though I admit buying a holy avenger is rather unlikely). What do your players spend their massive amount of coins on?? And are your games primarily dungeon delves (slim to no time table, plot hooks are independent of a central story line)? Or are they plot driven campaigns which focus primairly on a central goal/villain/artifact, etc? To give an example, my current campaign has been entirely focused on a prophecy (which has just been discovered to be false) of the rise of several evil entities known as the "Malign." Thanks to GM trickery, the players have now fully unleashed the Malign's power (and their Baator backers) as well as the armires of Celestia, onto their plane of Prime. Haven't had a single dungeon yet, all villain sites or story driven events. |
| Jindl12-11-03, 07:15 PM | Originally posted by SnarkHunter Do you think this arena is for fun or to test builds? ( I know this over simplifies, and its generaly both, but for Mo it seems to be mostly the later and for others mostly the former) I vote fun, and that this requirement makes it less so. Who does this requirement make it less fun for? The prepared casters, or the non-casters/partial casters like Galamdring, Draloth, and Moherajikuyx. I use this arena to test builds and learn rules. I could do the same thing just be listening to endless quibbling on the other threads of this board, but in the arena, I can have a great deal of fun while I do these things. True, as some have said, it is difficult to test some builds in the arena. A party-face, social build will not fare well here. Nor would a scouting/divining/skill based build. But we are the types of players who like combat prowess and tactical strategies. Thus the arena easily allows me to test the builds that I would enjoy playing. By its very nature of a 1 on 1 fight, the arena is biased towards spellcasters. How is a non-caster supposed to be equal to someone who can blow all of their daily spells in one encounter? This is, as Cat pointed out, why the arena is not a campaign. But at the same time, we do want to test out non-caster builds. I have tried multiple times with Karse and Tomah, and they get stomped. It doesn't matter if you compare them to a prepared or spontaneous caster, the non-casters get beat down. So if Mo's ruling slightly favors non-casters, I'm fine with it. I still think they will get beat down by any of the casters. But, at least it won't be as bad. In a caster vs caster fight, this rule only gives advantage to the defense. That makes the fights a little longer, and a little more interesting. It keeps spellcaster duels from being 2 round affairs, because you can at least prepare to defend against some of your opponent's spells. And that's fine by me. As for spontaneous casters having the advantage, just remember that nobody has the offensive spellpower of a wizard. Over the course of several encounters, the sorceror may have the edge, but since this is an arena, nobody will touch the wizard in offensive capability. So, I think the ability of druid's and cleric's to spontaneously convert an unnecessary spell into something slightly usefull, is not a problem. But if you just consider who your opponents might be, you prolly won't have publicly listed any unnecessary spells. Just be smart in what spells you publicly memorize. I would never publicly memorize death ward. But animal growth, you can be sure will be publicly memorized every time. -Jindl :) EDIT: @ Magagumo - In our campaign (and per the DMG rules, AFAIK) if the item is within the gold piece limit of the settlement, then you can probably buy one there. It just might take a little time and greasing of the wheels (finder's fees and such) in order to locate the item. But we buy and sell magic items using the settlement gp limit guidelines. And our fighters love to buy groups of 5 +1 bane arrows for each creature type... |
| sshuit12-11-03, 07:22 PM | Rito Maya vs. Octavian Cesar is done. Fists of fury Vs. Flying Fireballs. WHO WILL WIN? I'm sure there's loads of mistakes in this one. I tried to do my best but this is my first flying fight, Rito's tactics were pretty basic and I apologize if anyone thinks I didn't play the characters properly. In addition the invisibility was very complicated for me to handle. I wasn't sure whether MS rolls are done with the starting range (that's what I tried to do) or the final range. I also used the Listen success by 20 = Pinpoint, 15 = Within 5', 10 = Within 10', 5 = within 15', Bare success within 20' Hope it looks ok. edit : Made some cosmetic changes and added some flavor text. PLEASE make the arena all one height (200'?). I had trouble figuring out how high the ceiling was at each spot...... |
| Jindl12-11-03, 07:31 PM | @sshuit - I don't know if you saw it, but there's some posts above about your rogue not owning a rapier... you might wanna look at that. @Mo - um, Draloth never updated his character. Are you sure he is active? Nobody's heard from him in a week. He is supposed to moderate my fight. Not to mention his character is supposed to be fighting in a level 3 match... -Jindl |
| fluiddragon12-11-03, 07:31 PM | As for spontaneous casters having the advantage, just remember that nobody has the offensive spellpower of a wizard. Over the course of several encounters, the sorceror may have the edge, but since this is an arena, nobody will touch the wizard in offensive capability. So, I think the ability of druid's and cleric's to spontaneously convert an unnecessary spell into something slightly usefull, is not a problem. But if you just consider who your opponents might be, you prolly won't have publicly listed any unnecessary spells. Just be smart in what spells you publicly memorize. I would never publicly memorize death ward. But animal growth, you can be sure will be publicly memorized every time. Ahh Jindl that sounds like a challage! I make a delayed challange to the Elder when Gage hits 9th level. I think they would be the only 2 full arcane spell casters there and it would be the battle of Prepared vs Spontaneous casting. 2 elves with wildly difefring views of magic. The young lion vs the old owl. Plus both of us usually use some pretty unique tactics, it would be a hell of a fight! What do you say. Lets settle the debate once and for all. I pitty the mod who has to run that fight though!!! :mage: :fight: fd |
| Jindl12-11-03, 07:34 PM | @fluid - Sure, but you gotta post something cool on the RP thread. Nobody has put anything there lately... |
| Moherajikuyx12-11-03, 07:34 PM | Thanks Jindl, that's the kind of support I'm looking for: no one wants clones or yes men, a sound reasoning is appreciated. A lot more than rants... I'm not fully satisfied with this solution either: I know it's not core. As I already told, if anyone finds an easy solution to hide spells, we'll be on the horse: we'll be able to use the core rule of prepared spells without letting the prepared spells known. This unhappy solution is something like a deal: I give away the knowledge of half (round down) my spells to have in change the possibility of deciding half (round up) my spells on the fly. Considering that I can declare buffs, that will be known anyways, or other obvious spells, I still think it's a good deal for the prepared casters. I can accept the fact that others don't have the same opinion. But I don't think they did examine the pros and cons well. Jindl did, lately, it seems. Anyways, if anyone finds the above fantastic solution, darn, tell it! I'll be really happy! But the complaining, you know better than going on with it. I hope. LLMadCow is probably moving in the correct direction, BTW... With Jindl's consideration about the fixed stuff and less fixed stuff, which I agree with, the best would be to find a way to write an encrypted string on the sheet, then send the key to decrypt it together with the tactics. The encrypting/decrypting software should be easy to find or distributed by one of us, and not system-dependant. SSH? Mh, the string outcome is too long. What else? I tried to experiment with winzip but the file are pretty different from plain strings. Any suggestions? I'm thinking to implement it myself, an encryption algorithm is not so difficult to come by, and I'll be glad to force the american law... :D I need some time though, this period is hard for me, time-wise. If anyone has this piece of software ready, come on, show us. Now I'll go to do my fat glorious 4 hours of sleep, tomorrow I gotta work... CU fellow ranters! |
| Draloth12-11-03, 07:41 PM | :embarrass Im still around, have neglected to update as you said-will do that now. Im probably retiring Dorrin and going to be exclusivly modding for the next bit. ~Dral |
| Jindl12-11-03, 07:47 PM | Originally posted by Draloth :embarrass Im still around, have neglected to update as you said-will do that now. Im probably retiring Dorrin and going to be exclusivly modding for the next bit. ~Dral Um, don't edit the character. Just note what items you used last fight as part of the tactics that you sent to sshuit. And I'm glad to see you're still with us! Feel free to comment on some of our discussions... -Jindl |
| sshuit12-11-03, 07:48 PM | Well Since I forgot to buy one I guess its my bad . Unless Nevylokagyft wants to allow me to buy one (and I would understand if he didn't!) I will just do without. sshuit/Voliant Originally posted by Jindl @sshuit - I don't know if you saw it, but there's some posts above about your rogue not owning a rapier... you might wanna look at that. -Jindl |
| Moherajikuyx12-11-03, 07:49 PM | Good to hear from you Draloth, you lurker! :) SPOILER ALERT ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ Exciting fight, sshuit! All those rolls must have been a pain, but really an exciting result. And by the way... FINALLY! I can't almost believe it! |
| Draloth12-11-03, 07:56 PM | I probably would, if FFXI didn't suck up so much of my time. ;) I do stop by to read on a daily basis, keeping myself up to speed with the various debates that go on. @Fluid: I think that's an excellent idea. Since unlike most arena's these combantants live on after loosing, it would seem appropriate for them to be paid at least a small sum for participating. @The whole spell list thing: I personally fail to see how being forced to reveal half their in usage spell list ruins a caster's chances/tactics. Melee's are pretty easy to judge if you look at previous fights, or just the way they're built. However, when you have a melee facing a caster, they dont nessicarily have that sort of luxury. A caster can change his spell list to be entirly based around a specific opponant, whereas a melee doesnt have quite the same sort of ability. I think that revealing half would perhaps allow some of the caster vrs xxx fights that are rather one sided to be less so. ~Draloth's humble two cents. Edit: Guilty as charged Mo! :D One more edit: For all those complaining about how they'll leave if Mo's version of spell lists goes through, well tough-thats your choice. Personally I just cant understand how such a thing would upset people so much that they would get all worked up over something that might cause a <gasp> virtual fighter to lose in a simulated match thats there for fun ! Unless somebody here is a WotC employee who's attempting to make sure there arn't some broken builds that need to be addressed or some such, the final point of even those who are here to "test builds" is going to be-somewhere down the line- entertainment. As such, if the big head honcho mod (Mo) feels that he needs to make a change to either balance fights more, or just make it more enjoyable for a certain type of players, at perhaps the very minor expense of another type, that's in part his prerogative. Run with it for a bit, see if its really as build-shattering as you think. If so, perhaps it will need to be examined more closely. But until then, what's being shouted about appears to be mainly projections, not legitimate complaints based upon results or situations. |
| Jindl12-11-03, 08:07 PM | I've been pondering fluid's idea about a small cash payment to the loser of fights. But I don't like it because it simulates replacing expendable items. I also have been thinking about how some builds, like Rito, Kelek, and Bilo tend to suffer at low levels and become strong later in life. I also am thinking about LLMadCow's suggestion on error points. I like it, but it creates a lot of extra work. So, here's my idea to replace all the above. Please tell me what you guys think. After 3 losses at a given character level, promote the character to the next level as if they had won the fight. Basically this is like saying that you learn from defeat. 3 defeats at a given level should teach you enough to raise a level. This would also grant you new money to restock on needed items. Every time you gain a level (by winning or by losing 3 in a row), then the counter starts over again. You must have 3 losses at a single level to advance. This would replace needing to make a cash payment to the loser, would help make late blooming builds do-able, and make the error point committee unnecessary. Note: You don't mark it as a win on the win loss record. Just make a note of it as a "bump". So Rito's record would read 6-10-1 bump... for example. What do you guys think? -Jindl |
| Draloth12-11-03, 08:12 PM | That's a very interesting idea Jindl, and one that I would certainly be in favor of (not in the least because Dorrin has 3 losses now ;)). It seems to be either that, or start over, and if people have a specific build in mind that requires a higher level to be arrived at before they can really start work on it, this would be a nice help for those who just cant seem to win. I guess with careful money management this would also help with the potion/item problems, although obviously not to the point that those who've been steadily increasing would. Perhaps this could be put to a vote? ~Draloth, who is certainly in favor of such a thing. |
| sshuit12-11-03, 08:17 PM | @Jindl I love the idea of a 3 loss = 1 level bump. It is to noone's advantage to keep the losers at a low level forever. I'm looking forward to more high level fights. sshuit |
| Prexx12-11-03, 08:26 PM | @Mo - I am a programmer, and I have a program that can encrypt and decrypt strings based on a encryption key. It is a very simply algorithm, I am not a securities or encryption specialist. The only problem is that I do not have access to development software and I am unable to compile an executable program. If anybody has a VB compiler, I would be willing to send the source code. Here is a sample of the output of my program. The following are the results of the string "This is a test of Prexx's encryption program". This is the output when encrypted with the string "test" HM\gtNftUegYgYscZeCfY]k{geXbWWldhNbbtUec[WTa This is the output when encrypted with the string "prexx is cool" DZNkxi\saccT_drT^xP[Xx[vblU`Hjqp]\oQo_^_YWYe I know that the encryption isn't the strongest out there. But I'm pretty sure it will do just fine for our purposes. I would be happy to email this program out, but as I said before, I do not have access to a VB compiler. |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-11-03, 08:37 PM | Every caster must memorize at least minimal buff spells of some sort. Just use those as your pre-mem'd spells. I play spell casters in LG (other than ftr/mnk) and i don't have any problems with encounters or various situations and changing my tactics in a fight based on what i mem'd. Thus, with the advantage of changing half your list based on your opponent doesn't, in my opinion, cripple a character. But, then again, we aren't all that high level right now, so for now, i think it's fine. I don't think it's tough to adapt to. If there was away to make them all secret as Jindl suggested then i'm all for it. You might find that you may actually benefit from it. What if in Ebelin's case, he went all out MM's, and Iron's first spell on his buff list was spell immunity MM? Game over. But now he has a chance to mix it up a bit and keep his foe guessing. Some buffs, some offense, some utility, whatever he wants. This can also be used to your advantage. Such as pre-mem'ing a fireball, a scorching ray, to force your opponent to cast pro elements fire, and what you ended up doing was taking 4 melf's acid arrows, and 3 lighting bolts. But, that's just my opinion. Tellish **EDIT** Losses and lvl bumping. I'm not sure i'd favor this. If you lose 3 times and never used any resources doing so, suddenly you are miles ahead of the competition. Also, i could just lose 6 in a row, get triple the cash for my level, then continue to fight using equipment etc... knowing that i have a HUGE cash advantage over my opponents for the rest of my career. |
| fluiddragon12-11-03, 09:57 PM | One more edit: For all those complaining about how they'll leave if Mo's version of spell lists goes through, well tough-thats your choice. Personally I just cant understand how such a thing would upset people so much that they would get all worked up over something that might cause a <gasp> virtual fighter to lose in a simulated match thats there for fun ! I don't want to be missunderstood, I'm not going to leave because of this rule. But I would hate to see anybody leave over a rule like this. I play here because it is fun and I like to debate. I also like to try out different tactics but mainly because it is fun. I don't see the arena as even coming close to any campaign I have ever played in or run in the 20 years of playing DnD (Damn I'm getting old!) Many things here simply won't work in a campagin and vice versa. If the arena becomes so full of house rules or 'house' rules ;) new people will be intimidated to join or mod and the existing will loose interest. Thats all. I just don't want it to get to a point where there are so many rules that its not fun anymore. I quit the last campaign I was in becasue the DM was so :censored::censored::censored::censored:-retentive that it would take 4 hours to run 1 round of combat. Just wasn't fun anymore. -fd |
| fluiddragon12-11-03, 10:04 PM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket Losses and lvl bumping. I'm not sure i'd favor this. If you lose 3 times and never used any resources doing so, suddenly you are miles ahead of the competition. Also, i could just lose 6 in a row, get triple the cash for my level, then continue to fight using equipment etc... knowing that i have a HUGE cash advantage over my opponents for the rest of my career. I'm not in favor of level bumping either. Just a little and I mean little something for the loser to remain compeditive, and not stagnate, and give them some chance to remain compeditive. I think this would be less prone to abuse, than leveling automaticaly. You could also stipilate that resources have to have been used to be awarded anything. Though if the vote came down to it for auto level or looser cash, I'm sure we are all smart enough to figure out if sombody is loosing on purpose for more cash. They of course we would just exempt. Either way I do think something should be done to revive stagnated characters besides luck, keeps diversity up and gives us more higher level fighters to try new things on. |
| Magagumo12-11-03, 10:05 PM | It's interesting ToK, snark and I were just having that discussion a few hours ago (in reference to the cash payback). I'd have to say that Jindl's idea is an excellent one, and with some minor adjudicating, could work fine. First, I assume we'd be working off consecutive losses. Two, I would say it could even be judged if effort was put into a fight or not (so we don''t have people sitting around leveling for free ;)). On that note, however, I doubt we will see a rash of people putting no effort into a fight, as three weeks per level is an excrutiatingly long amount of time, especially if you are here to perfect your build, and want to chase after your grudge matches. In the end, those who would engage in such a lame tactic, will only hurt themselves as they are quickly out-classed by those who try. Also, minimal use of equipment isn't necessarily unrealistic, I happen to be an expert (generally) in this.. using only very inexpensive potions (Zorander's CMW was a slip :-P), or nothing at all (Review Bruno's past fights, its rare if I even use a scroll of invisibility, as I prefer memorizing it and saving myself money). In conclusion, I think it's an excellent plan, one that might give one of my new pondered fighters a boost (I don't see a high win ratio in his future.. :-P) |
| Jindl12-12-03, 03:06 AM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket Losses and lvl bumping. I'm not sure i'd favor this. If you lose 3 times and never used any resources doing so, suddenly you are miles ahead of the competition. Also, i could just lose 6 in a row, get triple the cash for my level, then continue to fight using equipment etc... knowing that i have a HUGE cash advantage over my opponents for the rest of my career. You misunderstand. You can never get a cash advantage. If you lose three times in a row (ie, 3 times at level 4), then you advance and gain the gold as if you won a fight. (To continue the example, you would advance to level 5 and gain gold as if you won a level 4 fight = 3600 gp). There's no way you can exceed the amount of gold you would normally get per level. The best you can do, would be to lose 3 fights with no resource expenditure. This would be the same money as if you won the first fight without using resources. But your record would suck. And, as Mag pointed out, it is easy to tell if someone is abusing this system. Also, since most of us have multiple characters, during the 3 fights you lose, you are probably moderating fights because your loser character is active. So there is some balance there as well. (Is losing on purpose 3 times to go up a level without using resources worth moderating 3 extra fights?) Anyway, I listed the benefits in my previous post, but I really think this would help with the builds that struggle at low levels, including the ECL races. -Jindl |
| Alathar Vierce12-12-03, 03:33 AM | Anyone ever think of listing spells, as a diversionary tactic to lead opponent on a tangent to the real tactics? Just turn a burden into a boon, lol :smirk: Item Refunding/auto levels...I'd be in favor of either or if implemented right, as some builds require a few weak starting levels to really reach a point where they become an equal contender. If the character never reaches that stage it can contend equally on a 1vs1 fight(or 1vs2, 2vs1, 2v2:D) we could be stopping a build that could be a real show stopper in a few levels :) |
| Galamdring12-12-03, 04:46 AM | Thanks for the answer, Moherajikuyx... :) PS: Tactics for Mara have also been sent! |
| Irlina12-12-03, 06:50 AM | Well perhaps an addition to the losing 3 times ides (I know it quire well and like the idae;) It allows testing the build at different levels). The ressourcen given in the DMG give the ammount of money a character should have at a certain level- but only as a guideline. Normally you used ressources like potions, wands etc. to reach this level. So the usage of expandable items is seen as normal. However- in this arena fights- every expendable item like a potion you use while fighting takes away from your gold pool. This is sensible since else one-shot items would dominate even more and you fight less than normal for reaching a certain level. So I would suggest that you get for a certain fight an amount of money to replace lost items after each fight / whether you lost or won/ but not as money but only for repairs/replacements etc. of items you used. I would suggest around 10% of money you got for last leveling. If you used items with charges you can easily calculate the cost of a charge and pay accordingly. You could also use this gold to partially pay the repairs and pay the rest from your wallet. So 70gp for lost items for lvl2 fight (leveling from 1 to 2 is 700 gp), 100 gp for lvl3 fight etc. But you get this money only to replace used items. So loosing a fight while using a few one-shot-items doesn't hamper you in advanging- only if you used too much for your level. Flaming encouraged. |
| LLMadCow12-12-03, 06:56 AM | I sent MadCow Template a friendly reminder to run his fight. I hope he takes it in good nature. :) |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-12-03, 07:04 AM | Originally posted by Jindl You misunderstand. You can never get a cash advantage. If you lose three times in a row (ie, 3 times at level 4), then you advance and gain the gold as if you won a fight. (To continue the example, you would advance to level 5 and gain gold as if you won a level 4 fight = 3600 gp). There's no way you can exceed the amount of gold you would normally get per level. The best you can do, would be to lose 3 fights with no resource expenditure. This would be the same money as if you won the first fight without using resources. But your record would suck. And, as Mag pointed out, it is easy to tell if someone is abusing this system. Also, since most of us have multiple characters, during the 3 fights you lose, you are probably moderating fights because your loser character is active. So there is some balance there as well. (Is losing on purpose 3 times to go up a level without using resources worth moderating 3 extra fights?) Anyway, I listed the benefits in my previous post, but I really think this would help with the builds that struggle at low levels, including the ECL races. -Jindl You're right. I did misundertand. I thought it was originally implied that you would stay at the level you are at, but just get the cash advance instead. Tellish |
| cellardweller12-12-03, 08:16 AM | As promised, here is some software that uses tripple-des encryption to obfuscate spell lists. Just extract this zip file (http://www.users.bigpond.com/david.d.peters/encrypt.zip) somewhere on your machine and open encrypt.html in your favorite browser. XP users may need to download the java plugin. I tested it under nt, linux and osX using ie and netscape so it should work anywhere but if you have issues PM me (I'm off to bed now so don't expect a response for a while). All said and done, I think I prefer the half declare method that we are currently using :D |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-12-03, 11:03 AM | Peter vs Pyre is done. Took 44 extremely long and tiring rounds. I honestly have to say it was the most boring fight i've ever run. I'll post the results in the morning, or later tonight if i can't sleep. Still need to cut/past tactics and sheets and stuff. Need sleep....much sleep. Working tonight. l8r Tellish |
| barrel_master12-12-03, 12:51 PM | Good effort sshuit. |
| Jindl12-12-03, 01:27 PM | Originally posted by barrel_master Good effort sshuit. I concur. Going back and reading the fight again after the descriptive text was added was much better than my first reading! Good work. -Jindl |
| KerlanRayne12-12-03, 01:49 PM | I have thought of a very simplistic way of handling prepared spells. You can put your spells in your character sheet but chenge their color to the background color of the post, either white or light grey. It would work on the honor system meaning we would have to trust each other not to check it out but it keeps it hidden from casual observation. What do you think? KerlanRayne |
| Magagumo12-12-03, 02:17 PM | Tomar vs. Dragon is posted. Interesting fight to run, and I apologize to fluid for the total disruption of his tactics (Wand of Entangle cannot be bought, only created). Nevertheless, his bow tactics proved to be incredibly well-written, despite the lack of entangle. Hope everyone enjoys the read. |
| Jindl12-12-03, 02:35 PM | Originally posted by Magagumo Tomar vs. Dragon is posted. Interesting fight to run, and I apologize to fluid for the total disruption of his tactics (Wand of Entangle cannot be bought, only created). Incorrect, sir. You may buy wands and scrolls of any spell. Perhaps you are thinking of staves which only come in the DMG varieties. EDIT: Also, damage which bypasses the protection from arrows DR, does not get subtracted from the total points of protection the spell gives. For example, in round 3 when the arrow hit for 13 points, 3 of which got through the DR, then only 10 points should be subtracted from the protection spell (not the full 13). -Jindl (I never like to miss an opportunity to 1-up good ol' Magagumo ) |
| barrel_master12-12-03, 02:35 PM | http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2066850#post2066850 I'd like to get feed back from telish though... is the tactic I commented on possible? Also, is your composite bow attack +7 or +8? I counted 7. (bab 1, dex 6) |
| Jindl12-12-03, 02:59 PM | Originally posted by barrel_master I'd like to get feed back from telish though... is the tactic I commented on possible? Also, is your composite bow attack +7 or +8? I counted 7. (bab 1, dex 6) I'm not ToK, but I can answer that if you like. Since he is mounted, his mount can make the single move 60' and he can still rapid shot. There is no mounted archery penalty unless the mount uses a double move or run. Rapid shot gives a -2 penalty, which still confirms the Zorander. The correct unmodified attack bonus is +8 due to the mw arrows. The confirmation would be 10 +8 -2 rapid shot -2 range vs Flatfooted AC 14, still confirms. There were some other problems in Tellish's tactics, about using the mount for scent and such, but they didn't come up in the fight. (Remember Tellish, your warhorse doesn't know Track, so it won't track by scent unless you "push" it, and that's a DC 25 Handle Animal check.) Barrel, good job on the initiative tie. You did it right, and I see that messed up frequently. -Jindl New slang word: Zorander = Critical arrow shot. EDIT: @Moherajikuyx - Please update the arena rules about metamagic and different caster level scrolls. See fluid's post below for the section I am referring to. I don't think the rules were corrected after we voted on this issue. Thanks! |
| fluiddragon12-12-03, 03:10 PM | @ mag: from the gladiator thread rules: Custom items are not allowed, unless crafted. Only scrolls and wands may be bought containing any spell. Potions, wondrous items, etc. can only be bought if they are printed in an allowed source. To modify items, like having scrolls with metamagic feats, or at different casting levels than normal, or unlisted potions, or wands at unlisted caster level, you have to craft them (some wands are already sold at various caster levels, though). Custom rods, staves and wondrous are not allowed by now: you may craft only listed ones. You may craft custom weapons and armors, using only the listed Special Abilities. Ok my level headed comments on the fight. First of all very good story, it was an entertaining read. I rolled low and some times that happens. Ok I complemented now I bought the right to complain :D. 1. Jindl pointed out the error you made with the wand, and I quoted the rule from the galdiator thread. 2. This was a MAJOR disruption of my tactics and you should have emailed me and given me a chance to either 1. defend my tactics and I would simply have quoted the rules and my tactic still would have worked. or 2. If I was in error and my tactics depended on a situation that was a mistake on my part being friday still I should have had time to revise them if the error was mine, which it is not. So on that note overall I am dissapointed that I was not contacted about something central to my tactics; and I believe this could have changed the outcome of the fight. I think it is just acourtesy to do this. I have done it in the past. Next time please give the player a chance to respond. We all make mistakes so there are no hard feelings I'll incorporate it into his story. I enjoyed the read despite the error. Next time and especially with Gage's fight if there is a major tactical error or problem please let me know and give me a chance to correct it. Thanks for moding the fight. -fd [see folks you can lose and complain and not flame :D!] edit: @ Mo the rules for buyng metamagic'd scroll and wands also needs to be changed to reflect the vote that took place a few weeks ago. But even with the old rules I could still buy the wand. edit: @ barrel, don't you hate running those awful fights that take forever, I never thought the Gith fight would last so long! |
| Moherajikuyx12-12-03, 04:01 PM | Good work fluid with the really polite observations. I'll try to learn. I know that the arena will never be nearly as close as a 10 years campaign, but I have the arrogance of thinking that it's slowly becoming similar in the fights mechanics, and balanced. Leadership will do wonders for bards, who have no companion or familiar, and are probably the weakest class by now. One thing, completely indipendent from that fight. Is the possibility of creating custom wands a house rule? Shall we limit it to DMG ones only? Anyways I'm updating the rules, sorry for the delay but this week was terrible... Some clients should die of tremendous deaths. As the proud owner of Rito Maya, the arena Top Loser, I am against the 1/3 loss bumps and the loss 1/10 wins: those things make having a character that hardly grows at start, way too easy. There's not such things at start, life's hard. I hope you're right about the happier life of monks at higher levels, Jindl! -_-' Originally posted by Prexx @Mo - I am a programmer, and I have a program that can encrypt and decrypt strings based on a encryption key. Prexx, that looks perfect! Send me the source, I'll do it in python which has the advantage of being free software: anyone will be able to either download the exe if he needs simplicity, or the language and the source if he wants to check it. I'll confront the two programs, cellar. I think we could leave people the choice, at least for now. Kerlan's proposal has its advantage: simplicity. Shall we allow people to choose among the three methods? (half half, declare all invisible with color, declare all encrypted) Or would that pose problems that I don't see? Well, one I see, it complicates things. Originally posted by Alathar Vierce Anyone ever think of listing spells, as a diversionary tactic to lead opponent on a tangent to the real tactics? Sshh, don't tell them! ;) |
| Magagumo12-12-03, 04:03 PM | Hmm.. and it seems once again I am the fool *sigh* @fluid My apologies, sir, I spent about 10 minutes reading over old votes and staring at the description of spell-trigger, and mistakenly came to the conclusion that "custom" wands werenot being permitted in this arena. I'm glad you liked the story, and must admit that the entangle would probably have been a clincher. Feel free to award him an error point (if we are using that system ^_~) this was a major error on my part. As for your tactics, I'm afraid the presence of two final exams tomorrow (wading through 200 pages of Genetics right now), as well as two philosophy essays has put my gaming life in disarray, so I decided to ciontinue on with your fairly valid tactics, as time to run these fights this week was rather short. I realized what I did, and apologize for consciously screwing you over. Maybe, when these tests are over, I will stop making the continuous false statements and mistakes that Jindl is so fond of pointing out ^_~ Then again, maybe not ;) @Jindl I like the new slang term, perhaps it will once again hold true :P |
| Ethendril12-12-03, 04:04 PM | Here's a thought about hit points: with the current system, the higher the hit die used, the lower the percentage of hit points you receive... Barb .58% of max (7/12) Ftr .60% of max (6/10) Clr .62% of max (5/8) Rog .66% of max (4/6) Wiz .75% of max (3/4) I wonder if this doesn't put the barbarians and fighters at a disadvantage. This may remove one of the largest advantages that barbarians and fighters have: high hit points. It seems like the following would be better: Barb .66% of max (8/12) Ftr .70% of max (7/10) Clr .62% of max (5/8) Rog .66% of max (4/6) Wiz .75% of max (3/4) This would put barbarians and fighters closer to the percentage of hit points wizards and rogues receive. I think this would make fighter-types more viable (especially at higher levels when they'll need it). Just my 2 gp. Ethendril (barbarian and cleric could actually go up one more hit point each and still be the same percentage of maximum hit points as wizards) |
| fluiddragon12-12-03, 04:13 PM | One thing, completely indipendent from that fight. Is the possibility of creating custom wands a house rule? Shall we limit it to DMG ones only? Anyways I'm updating the rules, sorry for the delay but this week was terrible... Some clients should die of tremendous deaths. We already voted on it. The vote was you can buy wands and scrolls of any caster level even with metamagic feats applied as you pay through the arse for it anyway. All other items are only the listed ones in the DMG. I believe it was poll #7 if I remember correctly. Also with wands, They are god awful expensive so I don't see this being abused. How many people out there are actually buying them, now that we don't sell partialy charged wands? I just had a clever idea, with making a Monk with his first level Ranger. I This character was made SPECIFICALY to take advantage of the ranger spells with wands according to the rule, that a spell of any kind can be bought in a wand and not just the listed ones. My whole character progression of going to be based upon this. I'll just delete FluidDragon and Dragonrain if this rule is changed, as both are making good use of this tactic. Being that like I said you can't buy partialy charged wands, and that they are very expensive I don't think it is an abuse or something out of balance. Plus the save DC's are patheticly low for wands which limits thier usefullness, and hieghtend wands are very very expensive. You also cannot apply spell focus to wands as it is not a metamagic feat. So please don't nerf 2 out of my 3 characters. The wands are expensive enough and hardly overpowering and have been available scince I started playing here. -fd |
| Elgonn12-12-03, 04:25 PM | Originally posted by Jindl I'm not ToK, but I can answer that if you like. Since he is mounted, his mount can make the single move 60' and he can still rapid shot. There is no mounted archery penalty unless the mount uses a double move or run. Another distinction is that his heavy warhorse only has a speed of 50' and wasn't pushed to go faster. So in order to move the 60 that he declared in tactics he would have to double move. Also Nevrlokgyft has a bowmaking mod of +7. But he crafted a DC 21 bow? Apparently he Took 14. Elgonn |
| fluiddragon12-12-03, 04:28 PM | Originally posted by Ethendril Here's a thought about hit points: with the current system, the higher the hit die used, the lower the percentage of hit points you receive... Barb .58% of max (7/12) Ftr .60% of max (6/10) Clr .62% of max (5/8) Rog .66% of max (4/6) Wiz .75% of max (3/4) I wonder if this doesn't put the barbarians and fighters at a disadvantage. This may remove one of the largest advantages that barbarians and fighters have: high hit points. It seems like the following would be better: Barb .66% of max (8/12) Ftr .70% of max (7/10) Clr .62% of max (5/8) Rog .66% of max (4/6) Wiz .75% of max (3/4) This would put barbarians and fighters closer to the percentage of hit points wizards and rogues receive. I think this would make fighter-types more viable (especially at higher levels when they'll need it). Just my 2 gp. Ethendril I like this idea. --------- On another note anymore consideration for awarding a small %(10-15) to loosers of fights after they hit 4th level to help keep them viable? Any support for this? I agree with Mo in that I don't like autoleveling, should be earned. But if you loose a few fights in a row the equipment losses can cripple a character in comparison to his opponent. -fd |
| Magagumo12-12-03, 04:51 PM | Ah the hp scaling issue- I'm currently testing this in my own arena game, as well as my campaign. To be honest, I hate rolling for NPC hp, so I use a standardized version which reflects elite hp gain: The formula is as follows: d4- 2.5+ 4/6 (.66)= 3.0 d6- 3.5 + 6/6 (1)= 4.5 d8- 4.5+ 8/6 (1.33)= 5.5 d10- 5.5+10/6 (1.66)= 7.0 d12- 6.5+ 12/6 (2)= 8.5 So far, this sytem has worked very well for me, and has allowed the elite dragon cohort of one of my players do very well in hp ^_~ Up to people if they want to accept this sytem, but I assure you that the fighters and barbarians will live longer :) Wizards and Sorcerors are unaffected; rogues, bards, druids, clerics, monks, and rangers get a slight boost; Fighters and paladins get another hp per level, and barbarians are getting 3 extra hp per 2 levels. |
| sshuit12-12-03, 04:56 PM | @barrel Thanks for the 1/2 round beatdown :-) At least I didn't use any equipment and now I have a chance to buy that damn rapier! Voliana / sshuit In other news : OUCH! @ll : Did anyone notice any grievous errors in the Octavian vs Rito fight? |
| Caterane12-12-03, 05:07 PM | Did anyone notice any grievous errors in the Octavian vs Rito fight? Yeah, Rito won :angel: |
| fluiddragon12-12-03, 05:25 PM | Originally posted by Caterane Yeah, Rito won :angel: :rofl: LMAO! hahaha! |
| sshuit12-12-03, 05:37 PM | Hi guys. I still haven't received any tactics from Dorrin and his sheet has no default tactics. What shall I do? sshuit |
| fluiddragon12-12-03, 05:37 PM | It's still friday send him a PM and wait till tomorow. |
| Moherajikuyx12-12-03, 05:53 PM | :bow: |
| MadCowTemplate12-12-03, 05:57 PM | I received tactics for Krakskul and Smushy. I still intend to run the fight tommarrow morning. (Sat. 11am). Question? Are there books currently in stores that are 3.5 revision but not marked so? For instance, "Complete Warrior Guide" (or words to that effect). Just curious. |
| fluiddragon12-12-03, 06:08 PM | I believe all the new books are 3.5 and I do know the complete warrior and a few others are considered 3.5. I think any material that comes out now will be considered 3.5. |
| Caterane12-12-03, 06:31 PM | Quick question: Spell immunity (spectral hand) ...does this make me immune to every spell delivered by the hand??? :devil: |
| MotherBast12-12-03, 06:33 PM | Clio vs. Lora is ran..... 11 rounds of the most by-god boring fight ever........ The crowd certanly didn't get there money's worth with this one. I will probably post it later. I can't take the boringness of it now, after running the darn thing. On the topics being discussed currently. I like the idea of giving more balanced hp % to the classes. Its a solid Idea. On fights that have taken place, If I'm not mistaken, in the Tomar vs. Dragonrain fight, on Tomar's first round of melee, he moves to Dragonrain, trips him, takes his free attack, misses, and then takes a second attack which hits.... I was just wondering how he took this second attack, since he moved before attacking. Dragonrain would have probably still lost, but he might have had one extra round to attempt a grapple. |
| Magagumo12-12-03, 06:34 PM | Since the spectral hand does not target you, but is creating an instrument for delivering touch spells, no, spell immunity has no effect on it. I'd offer alternatives, Cat, but.. y'know ;) Edit: Moderator idiocy, Mother, moderator idiocy ^_~ |
| Jindl12-12-03, 06:36 PM | Originally posted by Caterane Quick question: Spell immunity (spectral hand) ...does this make me immune to every spell delivered by the hand??? :devil: Read the spell description for spell immunity. It grants unbeatable spell resistance against the specified spell. This has no effect against spells which ignore spell resistance. Such as spectral hand. So, that would be a wasted spell immunity. -Jindl EDIT: Wow Magagumo! Logic and the rules come to the same conclusion. Who would ever believe it? :D |
| Magagumo12-12-03, 06:41 PM | Ah.. spells that ignore spell resistance. Threw a nightwing (Weakest of the nasty, undead nightshades) at my party a few eeks back. SR 28 was grinding the casters (of which there were 5 out of 7, including cohorts) into the ground. However, the two two sorcerors (alienist and spellsword) and the arcane trickster begin to hurl Melf' Acid Arrows at it, the psion is buffing to engage it in melee, the half-fiend cleric passes the sorcerors an Extend rod to improve the acid arrows... and the monk/sacred fist/paladin is hurling holy water at it. It died 3 or 4 rounds later from about 60 or more points of acid damage. I hate that spell ^_~ Edit: Yay! Jindl said I used Logic! :-P It's about time.. let's just not get started on falling rates and terminal velocity... :-D |
| sshuit12-12-03, 06:42 PM | Found some default tactics for Dorrin. Ugh. Not a pretty fight. Flavor text will come later. sshuit |
| Moherajikuyx12-12-03, 06:45 PM | Well then, Iron's casting spell immu: arcane. This good? Or maybe, spell immu: prepared.... No wait then he can't buff... |
| fluiddragon12-12-03, 06:47 PM | Originally posted by MotherBast On fights that have taken place, If I'm not mistaken, in the Tomar vs. Dragonrain fight, on Tomar's first round of melee, he moves to Dragonrain, trips him, takes his free attack, misses, and then takes a second attack which hits.... I was just wondering how he took this second attack, since he moved before attacking. Dragonrain would have probably still lost, but he might have had one extra round to attempt a grapple. All I needed was one good grapple, and Tomar would have been toast! Oh well - ce la vi. I think Mag just had it in for me in this fight :heehee: Just can't win sometimes :D -fd I have a question. Can you get quickend spells in a wand? Normally wands use a standard action to use. With the exception of summon spells where it takes the 1 round casting time just like the spell. The SRD doesn't say you can't get a quickend wand, and if the actual casting time is based on the spell (the precident is set with the summon spells could you buy quicken'ed wands? Though they would be very cost prohibitive. |
| Moherajikuyx12-12-03, 06:54 PM | I updated the rules. Note the crafts which are slightly changed, to be less house-rulistic, and the edited guidelines for hide and move silently. Are there errors in these? |
| cellardweller12-12-03, 06:54 PM | Originally posted by cellardweller As promised, here is some software that uses tripple-des encryption to obfuscate spell lists. Just extract this zip file (http://www.users.bigpond.com/david.d.peters/encrypt.zip) somewhere on your machine and open encrypt.html in your favorite browser. @all Has anyone tried this out yet? @prexx the problem with vb is that not everyone (me for instance) has easy access to a pc running windows. |
| Jindl12-12-03, 07:00 PM | Originally posted by fluiddragon I have a question. Can you get quickend spells in a wand? Normally wands use a standard action to use. With the exception of summon spells where it takes the 1 round casting time just like the spell. The SRD doesn't say you can't get a quickend wand, and if the actual casting time is based on the spell (the precident is set with the summon spells could you buy quicken'ed wands? Though they would be very cost prohibitive. Read the section in the SRD on wands. Here's a quote: "Activation: Wands use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a wand is usually a standard action that doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity. (If the spell being cast, however, has a longer casting time than 1 action, it takes that long to cast the spell from a wand.) To activate a wand, a character must hold it in hand (or whatever passes for a hand, for nonhumanoid creatures) and point it in the general direction of the target or area. A wand may be used while grappling or while swallowed whole." So, it takes a standard action unless the spell has a longer casting time than one action, in which case it takes the longer casting time. So, while you could make a quickened wand, it would still take a standard action to activate. -Jindl EDIT: Man, Dorrin should really sell that banded mail crap and get a breastplate. Then he could use his barbarian speed, and run at x4. This could have given him a chance in the last 2 matches. |
| SnarkHunter12-12-03, 07:55 PM | Hoo ha Fights up, candy vs. Hurtz (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2069292#post2069292) not quite 5 minutes of continous fighting. But close. Real close :twitch:. To Orgo I go! Edit: Wow Mother, worst timed tactics revision ever. |
| Elgonn12-12-03, 08:06 PM | Originally posted by cellardweller @all Has anyone tried this out yet? I gave it a try. Interesting encryption style. The GUI seems to be much to large. Did it really have to be >1 Meg?? Originally posted by cellardweller @prexx the problem with vb is that not everyone (me for instance) has easy access to a pc running windows. The same can be said about a machine with java. Elgonn |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-12-03, 08:07 PM | Originally posted by Caterane Quick question: Spell immunity (spectral hand) ...does this make me immune to every spell delivered by the hand??? :devil: No. You can't even designate Spectral Hand as an immunity for spell immunity as Spectral Hand is not affected by spell resistance. The spell that is discharged through it however may be subject to immunity if it is also subject to spell resistance. Dispel Magic also isn't a viable spell for spell immunity, as it's not affected by spell resistance. **EDIT** I see this was already answered a few times. Just ignore me. Going to go post the 44 round monstrosity now. Just waking up. ***EDIT*** K, i'm gonna be off to work after that, so no more tactics revision for Ebelin and Iron. I'll be going over them while at work and studying hard, to make sure i don't get burned at the stake again. LOL Tellish. |
| Sir Cridion12-12-03, 08:12 PM | Two things: First of all, I think the consecutive loss advancement thingie and possibly the 10% reusable item refund are good ideas. Personally, I don't think it'd be very fun to have to sit through four weeks waiting for your character to level up because of bad luck or something. After all, since the arena is about testing the builds, I think that bumping the characters after awhile instead of letting them stagnate, especially if they've used up all their resources, is a chance for the character to continue. Jindl's idea sounds good. As to abuses, I think we just have to rely on player honour, and the fact that waiting three weeks for one level is a very longtime... I don't think you should implement both the refund and the autolevels though. That's going a little too far Er... second thing. I was wondering how you arena people would react to having a mounted archer in the standings. I can see it as a viable build and a cool concept, but I'm afraid that it could end up being "cheap" since the entire character would revolve around playing keep away. Anyways, thanks. I'll just head back to my lurking now... |
| cellardweller12-12-03, 08:48 PM | Originally posted by Elgonn The GUI seems to be much to large. I use 1600*1200 so I tend not to notice these things. If you change the height and width parameters in the html file, it will scale accordingly. [/B]Did it really have to be >1 Meg?? [/B] ? its 307k? - I could have been a lot smaller, but the VM in IE is missing a lot of standard classes that I had to include The same can be said about a machine with java. Really? AFIK, the only that is browser capable of viewing these pages but doesn't have a java plugin is Lynx (and i'm willing to bet that noone here uses Lynx). If this isn't the case, let me know and I'll tranlate the java encryption libraries to javascript (what I desperately trying to avoid). |
| sshuit12-12-03, 08:48 PM | A mounted archer is indeed a strong build, but as you suggested it would be a pain in the A$$ to run for the moderators. No more annoying than invisible flying mages though so why not go for it! Originally posted by Sir Cridion Er... second thing. I was wondering how you arena people would react to having a mounted archer in the standings. I can see it as a viable build and a cool concept, but I'm afraid that it could end up being "cheap" since the entire character would revolve around playing keep away. |
| Elgonn12-12-03, 09:02 PM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket **EDIT** I see this was already answered a few times. Just ignore me. Going to go post the 44 round monstrosity now. Just waking up. Tellish. While the tactics were quite poorly written you can still see that it seems like he should have at least tried to Silence Pyre. Maybe then Pyre would have been forced to just use the bow and really run out of arrows. Loved the intro by the way :) Originally posted by cellardweller I use 1600*1200 so I tend not to notice these things. If you change the height and width parameters in the html file, it will scale accordingly. Just think about how large the fields are. Not even an epic caster can fill that up. Also what is the middle section for? Just to take up space? Originally posted by cellardweller ? its 307k? - I could have been a lot smaller, but the VM in IE is missing a lot of standard classes that I had to include Zip File size: 307k Cummulative File size: 506k Cummulative File size (taking into account sector use): 1.21M Prexx's VB encrypter: 24k Since most machines are windows java gets a large overhead. Originally posted by cellardweller Really? AFIK, the only that is browser capable of viewing these pages but doesn't have a java plugin is Lynx (and i'm willing to bet that noone here uses Lynx). If this isn't the case, let me know and I'll tranlate the java encryption libraries to javascript (what I desperately trying to avoid). The biggest one I can think of is Windows XP/2003. Sun lost its case eventually. There is no standard java runtime anymore. While you can obviously download one it is yet another hoop for them to jump through. Someone should put up an ASP or PHP site and then anyone on the planet who can access the CO boards can use it. Elgonn |
| SnarkHunter12-12-03, 09:06 PM | @ Tellish, No worries on that fight btw. I've got you beat on both arrow use and longest fight! ...sings: 50 rounds...so many arrows...needed to role 20's! Hacha! |
| fluiddragon12-12-03, 09:17 PM | Monk vs Mage is done but not posted. I have to think of a back story. There were A TONN of Hide/MS/Listen/Spot rolls made and I'm sure I probably messed up. I'm going to go over the rules and guidelines again before I post it, but even then I might be off and have some goof ups but these sneak fights are difficult to run. Good tactics on both sides. After I check my work and think of a story I'll post. -fd |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-12-03, 09:48 PM | Originally posted by Elgonn While the tactics were quite poorly written you can still see that it seems like he should have at least tried to Silence Pyre. Maybe then Pyre would have been forced to just use the bow and really run out of arrows. Loved the intro by the way :) That's the thing Elgonn. He didn't have silence mem'd. More than half the spells he wanted to cast he didn't have mem'd. The one he could have used offensively (Doom) he never got in range to use it. Originally posted by Snarkhunter @ Tellish, No worries on that fight btw. I've got you beat on both arrow use and longest fight! ...sings: 50 rounds...so many arrows...needed to role 20's! Hacha! OMG...my deepest apolagies for having to put you through that. AHHAHA. I know it was a pain on my side of the screen, and i can just imagine how painfull it was for you. It probably consumed more time for me because of the annoyance of the online roller. That thing really does suck up some time in long fights. And since you filled all 50 rounds with editorial, that clearly makes you the champ of the longest fight. You have my deepest sympathies and respect for running that one. Tellish |
| Elgonn12-12-03, 10:02 PM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket That's the thing Elgonn. He didn't have silence mem'd. More than half the spells he wanted to cast he didn't have mem'd. The one he could have used offensively (Doom) he never got in range to use it. Haha I didn't even notice. You should have just called the fight. Elgonn |
| Alterlat12-13-03, 01:05 AM | Hey Tellish, I just noticed Hurtz's new unguent - will that actually work on him, or does he have to be dead first? |
| MotherBast12-13-03, 01:36 AM | Humm... Hurtz survived my CDG.... oh fiddel sticks indeed.... its too bad my revised tactics were too late, but the fight would have ween much the same I think. He never used his fly potion, so its would have been about the same thing. Bad luck for Candy, that a CDG would fail.... Not to take anything away from Hurtz. Well fought all around, and the match seemed pretty flawless error wise, except I'm assuming I actually used all 44 of my arrows instead of just 40, since I ran out. I will post the Lora vs. Clio fight tomarrow, I need sleep now. |
| Moherajikuyx12-13-03, 05:05 AM | Tellish, I laughed as a loco! Good work. sshuit, don't worry and post your mounted archer! I'm repeating this since it was the last post of the last page. I updated the rules. Note the crafts which are slightly changed, to be less house-rulistic, and the edited guidelines for hide and move silently. Are there errors in these? |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-13-03, 08:07 AM | Originally posted by Alterlat Hey Tellish, I just noticed Hurtz's new unguent - will that actually work on him, or does he have to be dead first? Dead things coated actually survive the passage of time. Meaning my body won't decay. Anything coated gets the listed benefits. (i think.) The down side though, is that it can be dispelled. Tellish |
| MotherBast12-13-03, 10:47 AM | Ok, I posted Lora vs. Clio. Read and enjoy. The story is good, even if the fight is dull. |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-13-03, 10:48 AM | For a real life cheering section, the fight is currently being run. I just started it so it's gonna take some time to finish, but you can check the progress out at.... http://krisinchico.brinkster.net/rollsearch.asp and use "IronvsEbelin" as the search. If you see....20, 20, 20...you know it's ending soon. hehe Tellish **EDIT** sorry. Too tired. Still trying to stretch it from my graveyard shift, but i need sleep. I'm only 5 rounds into it and no one is dead yet. That's about the only spoiler i'll post. heheh. C'ya'll in about 6 or 7 hrs when i wake up. |
| SnarkHunter12-13-03, 11:21 AM | Mother. Loved the fight, loved the story. Hated the spelling. ;) Also when exactly did Clio cast Truestrike? It only lasts for one round (not that it matters of course). |
| Caterane12-13-03, 12:40 PM | Yeah, Motherbast, really cool. I always like it when the story line is being continued. But Clio was really lucky that she hasn`t entered the "Cat" room :devil: |
| barrel_master12-13-03, 01:06 PM | Originally posted by sshuit @barrel Thanks for the 1/2 round beatdown :-) At least I didn't use any equipment and now I have a chance to buy that damn rapier! Voliana / sshuit In other news : OUCH! @ll : Did anyone notice any grievous errors in the Octavian vs Rito fight? That's very gracious of you... I've never seen anyone on these boards thanking a mod for having their character killed. :) |
| barrel_master12-13-03, 01:21 PM | Originally posted by fluiddragon I don't want to be missunderstood, I'm not going to leave because of this rule. But I would hate to see anybody leave over a rule like this. I play here because it is fun and I like to debate. I also like to try out different tactics but mainly because it is fun. I don't see the arena as even coming close to any campaign I have ever played in or run in the 20 years of playing DnD (Damn I'm getting old!) Many things here simply won't work in a campagin and vice versa. If the arena becomes so full of house rules or 'house' rules ;) new people will be intimidated to join or mod and the existing will loose interest. Thats all. I just don't want it to get to a point where there are so many rules that its not fun anymore. I quit the last campaign I was in becasue the DM was so :censored::censored::censored::censored:-retentive that it would take 4 hours to run 1 round of combat. Just wasn't fun anymore. -fd Props to fluid and to the guy he quoted (whomever it may be)... it's a game and it's supposed to be fun... don't take losses to seriously. |
| Caterane12-13-03, 01:57 PM | I hope you don`t mean me? I never said that nor even took this into consideration! No no, you won`t get rid of me that easy :D |
| MotherBast12-13-03, 03:15 PM | Your right Snark, the TrueStrike was cast the round before Longstrider, so It would have worn off already. I just wasent paying attention since it didn't matter at all. Oh, and I already warned everyone of my spelling, so no complaning. I've been meaning to commint on the issue about characters who loose. I have given it some thought, and I will throw my vote in with Jindil's suggestion. It is much simpler, and easer to track. I certanly think that something is necessary for builds that have a "weakpoint" in there development. Just because this weak point becomes obvious, dosen't mean the build itself isen't viable, once those week levels are past. Candy, for one, will have a very hard time getting past level 5. Level 6 will be a little easer, if leadership is allowed, but still tough. 7-10 she will be back on par with the other gladiators, and 11 and 12 will be tough levels again. After 13th, she will always be behind, but never weak. Should she never be allowed to get past level 5, simply because its the weakest level in her build? I think a lot of characters will have a level or 2 in there builds where 3 loses will be a real possibility, and after 3 losses, the resorces expended will probably make each fight even harder than the last, untill there only chance is just to "get lucky". I can aford to loose maybe 2 more fights at level 5 with Candy before I will have to just retire her. I love the character though, and this proposal would allow her to continue in the arena despite having a weak level. Plus, it would help push the arena twords more high end play, as there would be much less "starting over" of characters. It would also help out LA races as well, which I think someone else pointed out. That about does it I guess..... |
| Prexx12-13-03, 03:22 PM | In the Clio vs Lara fight, I noticed something that isn't quite right. Her mount is already past the half-way point of its double move, so she can not make a ranged attack, she can also neither cast a spell, or make a melee attack, as the mount double moved. You are still able to perform any action you like while your mount moves. Your mount could full run and you could still drink a potion, or fire a bow, or cast a spell, or perform any action you would like. The mount has it's own actions which are completely independent of your own actions. |
| MadCowTemplate12-13-03, 03:39 PM | Well, unexpectedly, I've been driving around for various reasons for the last five hours. I'll start running the orc grudge match now. Oh, Iread my fight with Clio. I hope motherbast or someone is taking notes on the stuff being written about this arena. It'll make a fine supplement book one day. Thanks for pointing out my will, I'll fix that. I'm not quite sure why I couldn't attack during Spott's double move early on, but then it's been weeks since I really had time to remember what Lora's abilities are. I'm positive neither of those things would've changed anything though. I have some questions and such for later, now I should get to my fight. But have I mentioned that Bard's are called spoony because of the "Hide" combat command in FF2? Don't know what made me think of that. |
| MotherBast12-13-03, 03:57 PM | Yes, indeed, you can act while your mount moves. You may take any move equiv action while your mount moves. You may also melee attack, at the end of a single movement of your mount, but not a double move, with the exception of a charge. You may fire a ranged weapon even during a double move of your mount, but you make the attak when you mount reaches the "mid-point" of its double move. In this case, Lora did not wish to do any move actions, so that was out. She had no melee weapon, and since her mount was double moving, it didn't matter even if she did. She had a ranged weapon in hand, but as spott was already past the "mid-point" of his move by the time Lora found Clio it was too late to use it. I may have described this wrong in the fight, but the actual rules enforcement was correct. |
| Prexx12-13-03, 04:39 PM | Originally posted by MotherBast Yes, indeed, you can act while your mount moves. You may take any move equiv action while your mount moves. You may also melee attack, at the end of a single movement of your mount, but not a double move, with the exception of a charge. This is where I must disagree with you. You are able to take any action regardless of your mount's movement, even a full round action. It is possible for a character to attack at the end of a mount's double move, or even at the end of a mount's full run. In such a case, the character's action would be "ready to attack once in range of opponent", and he would swing as soon as his mount moved him into range. You may fire a ranged weapon even during a double move of your mount, but you make the attak when you mount reaches the "mid-point" of its double move. In this case, Lora did not wish to do any move actions, so that was out. She had no melee weapon, and since her mount was double moving, it didn't matter even if she did. She had a ranged weapon in hand, but as spott was already past the "mid-point" of his move by the time Lora found Clio it was too late to use it. I may have described this wrong in the fight, but the actual rules enforcement was correct. This is a rather gray area. One might be able to argue that she simply had the weapon readied to fire upon detecting her opponent. Very similar to how a mounted archer riding past a practice target would hold his arrow until he was at the appropriate angle to fire, which is not necessarily halfway through his mount's movement. My ruling on this would be if you want to simply fire your arrows, or make a full attack, then you must do so at halfway through your mounts movement. You would be able to hold a single arrow and fire it at any time during your mount's movement, but you would have to specify a condition, and you would be subject to all of the normal drawbacks of taking the ready action. |
| MotherBast12-13-03, 04:59 PM | While all of your suggestions make a great deal of sense, I just used the rules listed under mounted combat on Page 157 of the PHB. "If your mount moves more than 5', you can only make a single melee attack." So no full attacks. It also says you may attack with no penalty "even at your mount's full speed." Full speed is a single movement. It does not go on to say you may attack if your mount double moves, nor does it list any penalties associated with attacking if your mount moves more than its speed. As this section and the next sections demonstrate, these paragraphs list what actions may be taken and when on a moving mount. "You CAN use ranged weapons while your mount is taking a double move, but at a -4 penalty on the attack roll. You can use ranged weapons while your mount is running, at a -8 penalty. In either case, you make the attack roll when you mount has completed half its movement. You CAN make a full attack with a ranged weapon while your mount is moving. Likewise, you CAN take move actions normally, so that, for instance, you can load and fire a light crossbow in a round while your mount is moving." So you see, you absolutly must make your ranged attack at the midpoint of your mount's movement, if you fire during a round that your mount double moves. Also, the reason all the "CAN"s are in bold, is because this text, and the rest of the text in the mounted combat section expressly tells you what attack actions may be exicuted, and when, while mounted. Melee attacks are not listed a possible with anthing beyond a single move, therefore they cannot be done with a double move, or a run. Ranged attacks can be, because the book says so. It does not say melee attacks can be. As a matter of fact, no standard actions are listed with double moves, (with the exception of the ranged attack, which has conditions about when it may take place) so you can't use a readied action if your mount double moves either. Only move equiv actions are allowed when double moving, or a ranged attack at the "mid-point" of the move, not before, and not after, so no readyed arrows either. If your past the mid-point, its to late. Hope this clears it up a bit for ya. [Edit] It just occured to me it might be possible to ready an action, and then have your mount move...... I'm not at all sure how this would work withen the structure of the rules, which all seem to be geard around the mount moving before you act. In the case of a ranged attack it would be a simple matter, because a rule exists that states that a ranged attack must happen at the mid-point of a double move, or a run, so the readyed action would have to happen then, or would simply not be able to happen. However, if a rider readyed an action to "attack when my opponit is adjacent," then double moved, it seems he would be unable to attack at the end of his initative, due to melee attacks not being possible after a double move, but would then still have the action readyed at the start of the very next initative number, and the action would resolve. Come to think of it, the same could be done with a single arrow, if the person fired it was willing to wait untill the mount finished moving to fire by using a readyed action like, "Shoot him when my mount is 80' closer" and then double moving. The arrow readyed action couldn't resolve on that init count, but would at the start of the very next one. Perhaps this is the sort of thing you were suggesting Prexx? If so, this is the kind of deep stratagy I would never do for a gladiator. This kind of stuff would absolutly have to be outlined in tactics before I would concider it. |
| SnarkHunter12-13-03, 06:05 PM | Mother; while I agree with your interpretation of ranged attacks and other attacks taken during a mounts movement I'm not convinced you're correct about a melee attack after a movement. Where does the text indicate that, Full speed is a single movement. I ask because I had always considered 'Full speed' to be the most possible movement a mount could take in a single round. That is, more then 5ft of movement and upwards of the run action. In the arena of course, Cat's use of this was to equip his light warhorse with horseshoes of speed, double move to within 10 ft of his oponent and attack with his lance, in the first round of combat. Of course I readily admit that I may be assuming more then the text allows, which is why I'm asking for a clarification from you. There is also btw, one other action that can be taken while mounted and moving, spell casting. |
| SnarkHunter12-13-03, 09:33 PM | Fights up (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2079040#post2079040) If you want a spoiler highlight the text below Bruno Zorandered with a 1st turn Phantasmal, which Harvester failed by 1 point. I tripple checked saves and everything. Oh and I think my Organic Chemistry final went decently, btw. |
| Prexx12-13-03, 09:48 PM | First let me clarify my previous post. I wasn't suggesting that you were not playing out the tactics of the gladiators properly, I think you did a fine job of moderating. I also realize that one would be unable to perform the full attack action after his mount has moved more than 5 feet. You would be unable to perform the full attack action unless you were using a ranged weapon because you would have to wait for your mount to arrive at the destination before you attacked. This would make it impossible for you to execute a full attack due to time constraints. I was just trying to clear up a point about mounted combat. Just because it does not explicitly state that you can take a standard action when your mount moves, does not mean you are unable to do so. Please note the statement that you could load AND fire your bow while your mount is moving. While it doesn't specificly list any other actions that can be performed that doesn't mean that they are impossible. It would possible to drink a potion, dismiss a spell, turn undead, or perform any other standard action normally while mounted on a moving horse. I think Caterane said it best when he used the analogy of "Think of mounts like a medieval train." Any action that you could take while standing on a moving platform, you can take while on a moving mount. The point is that the actions of the mount and the actions of the rider are separate. The idea that you are unable to attack if your mount has moved more than it's movement doesn't make any sense, and brings up several problems. For instance, if I am riding my horse past an enemy, with sword in hand, poised to strike, you mean to tell me that one would be unable to swing my sword, just because his mount had moved during the round? Or a mounted archer who is riding past a target, with an arrow nocked and ready is unable to fire the arrow when he is closest to his target, but instead must fire at some other time because he must wait till mount has moved half it's movement in order to fire? I'm sorry, but that makes absolutely no sense. The actions of the rider must be separate from that of the mount in order for the mounted rules to make any sense. [edit: clarified a few sentences and corrected spelling/grammar mistakes] |
| MadCowTemplate12-13-03, 10:08 PM | Krakskul vs Smushy run, written, and posted. Don't be deceived by how long it took me to post this, I merely got distracted by my brother calling from the other end of the continent. The battle itself was not terribly long. NOTE ON FIGHT RULING: Fortunately, it had no affect on the outcome of the fight, but I ruled that Smushy was not allowed to rage before setting a weapon against a charge. It requires too much waiting. The book describes rage as a "screaming blood frenzy" and dissallows "any abilities that require patience or concentration." And personally, I'd say any feat that has Combat Expertise as a requirement should also be impossible. But I will act with the decision of the majority, if people would like to comment on that for future reference. |
| Magagumo12-13-03, 11:54 PM | As for the knight slicing a head as he rides by, thats what Ride-by Attack is for ;) Well, it seems Bruno has entered the deep freeze of 9th level (Sorry Cat, it was worth a shot to throw my death spell at you), I have posted the new character Ayan Rocfeather, a new build combination for this arena I think. I will update Bruno then, and will be running the second fight soon... maybe start tonight and finish on the morrow. And not to be outdone by Snark ;), I believe I survived both Genetics and Abnormal Psychology. Organic Chemistry trumps both though ^_~ |
| Jindl12-14-03, 01:14 AM | Good reading on the fights. @ Snark, the definition of Zorander is a death-dealing bow critical. We'll have to use a new term for a 1/2 round kill. (Not naming it yet, since no one has earned it yet.) We could call getting killed even when you should win as getting "Prexxed"... what do you guys think? [@Prexx - :P] I hope Draloth posts the fight soon. I wanna see how the fighting sorceror does. -Jindl FYI: Jindl got his BS in chemistry (in 4 years :D), even though he got C's in both of his Orgo classes. |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-14-03, 01:36 AM | 6 hrs later, round 30 underway, and no blood has been spilled. Lots of illusions and images perished...but sadly no blood. To be Continued. I'm taking a break. Both tactics were extremely well-countered. <sigh> Of course, ya know, someone could volunteer to finish it for me? Take it off my hands? LOL. j/k Tellish |
| MotherBast12-14-03, 01:36 AM | Prexx... while I agree the rules dont make sense sometimes, they are still the rules. Just because the book dosen't say you can do something, does in fact mean that you cant. The book dosen't say I can fly anytime I wont, so I cant. Blah Blah Blah. The book lists evey action that can be taken. If its not listed, it can't be done. They don't list what can't be done, because this would fill several volumes. So if the book dosen't say it can be done, then it can't. As a matter of fact, the only time the books ever give a list of when thing can't be done, is when its an exception to a rule. Like, for instance, you can AoO a foe who leaves a threatened square, unless..... See what I'm saying? So if the book gives a list of actions that can be taken while your mount double moves, and attack isen't on it, then you can't attack. As for the loading and firing the cross bow, that would be a move equiv, and a ranged attack, both of which do apear on the list of aproved actions. This isen't the first time the rules haven't coinsided with what makes sense, and it wont be the last. As far as "full speed" goes, your full speed is the amount listed on your character sheet under the heading "speed". If you move that distance, you have moved your full speed. A double move is twice your speed, and a run is 3 or 4 times your speed, depending on encumbrence. The book clearly draws a line at attacking only after moving your "full speed." Sometimes you have to look past what makes sense to understand the rules. Its like the post someone did on another thread a while back, about the Barbarian who can move 40' a round racing the rouge who can only move 30' a round. They are running a 200' race. In real life, the barbarian would win 99.99999% of the time, only loosing by a fluke. In the game world, the rouge has improved inative and a higher dex, and so he wins the race 66% of the time. It makes no sense, but its the rules. As I pointed out in my last post though, clever use of readyed actions can bypass the restrictions on attacking after a double move, to the point it dosen't even matter that you can't attack on your turn, because you do attack as soon as your turn ends. |
| Draloth12-14-03, 03:07 AM | Patience Jindl, it should be up sometimes afternoon tommorow (PST)-the gods willing. Or early evening, depending on how long it takes to actually run. ~Dral |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-14-03, 03:42 AM | Round 64. Each combatant has only been hit once. Does anybody wanna finish this for me? I've done 12 hrs worth of modding. I need someone to assist. Maybe Snark or Jindl or Mag? I'm gonna require assistance. There's no way i'm gonna be done by wednesday if it keeps going the way it's going and i'm not modding a 706 round fight, which is when the spell immunity:command undead wears off. Tellish plz email me privately. I'll be checking my mail regularly. |
| Caterane12-14-03, 03:54 AM | I wrote 4 hours on the Harvesters tactic and then that. :weep: Tellish: I`ll gladly take over :D Edit: Hey Mag, Improved ini, eh? :) |
| Moherajikuyx12-14-03, 05:10 AM | Originally posted by Magagumo As for the knight slicing a head as he rides by, thats what Ride-by Attack is for ;) Actually, that's for allowing the mount to keep moving after it charged. Else, only a rideby attacker could use its lance and make the mount attack too: consider the threat zones. When the rider impales the mount still doesn't reach. The implication is that all the riders are holding action, and the mount doesn't care: so, the riders have charge bonus even while holding action (until the mount finishes the charge). Cool ain't it! I do think that the actual rules are a bit unbalanced. I've done a bit of riding and they should make the ride check a mov, or a double mov if the mount double movs. Yes, I probably have only 1 rank of riding, but that's my opinion nontheless. But, I'll not complain after anything that favours meleers. They need more. So yes, as the rules imply, the actions are separate. Now, a question. The archers normally use their shot at middle movement. If at middle movement the rider is still out of range, can he ready action: shot? |
| Caterane12-14-03, 05:16 AM | Got my message, Mo? |
| Moherajikuyx12-14-03, 06:03 AM | Yup... People there's news in the roster stats at the end... :angel: I'd rather call it a Wilikens than a Bruno. Or Brunander... Also, I insist I'd like to have some feedback about the new (I hope final) rules about crafting, memorizing and the stealth guidelines. |
| Caterane12-14-03, 06:32 AM | Mo and I`ve been discussing the heavy impact of initiative has on the gladiators and how to circumvent it. It`s not going to get better once we reach levels where instant death spells are plenty and I fear of just reading Zorander fights. The fact that nearly every combatant took impr.ini confirms my fears. Took me darnn 4 hours for the Harvey`s tactics and I couldnt even act. Suggestion: We make a new rule: NO ATTACK FIRST ROUND rants open |
| Moherajikuyx12-14-03, 06:47 AM | I'm counting the votes... As you see below, there's a lot of ?s. These are abstains, and interpretative answers. This means that, as there's a beautiful sun out there, I'd rather be climbing than deciding if Snark's "I agree" agrees with yes or no, or Mag's answers... Sorry I don't want to be harsh, but please bear with me andd write yes or no before the answer; anything else means abstain. 8aa nyyyyn??yny?yny?? 8b nynyyn?nnynynynn?? 8c acr2 xxxxxxx ad2 xxx 0 x 9 ny?yyn?yyyyyynynny? 10 yynyny??yynnnnnyyy? 11 nnnnny??nnnnnyynnn? 12 nn?yyy??ynyyy?yyyn? 13 yy?y????ynyyy?ny??y initiative - I suggested to make the initiative winner round a half round, like the surprise ones. |
| Moherajikuyx12-14-03, 07:14 AM | Also, I'm closing the obvious answers votes... The arena shapes into a cylinder, initiative's known by the gladiators, we allow untemplated and unadvanced skeletons but we have to pay for corpses (the majority looks to be willing for alpha * CR^2, alpha ranges from 25 to 100), leadership's ok but only with unclassed things. I suggest all to specify the cost of the skeletons, and I added another vote, the one for initiative; it's pretty generic for now. What were the other votes requested? OT Finally job well done Americans. |
| MotherBast12-14-03, 07:58 AM | MO: About the mount's and rider's actions being seprate, the book does indeed imply they are. It also Implys that when a mount moves, it limits the time a rider had to take any action. I have pointed this out already, but the section called mounted combat has a nice little 4 paragraph compalation explaining what actions can be thaken, and when, when your mount moves. Anttacking at the end of a double move isen't in there, and it also implies twice that you can't attack if your mount moves more than its full speed, once when it says you may make a singel attack at no penalty if your mount moves up to its full speed. The second time is when the book feels the need to specificaly tell you you may still attack after your mount has charged. Why would it say this unless you would normaly not be allowed to attack when your mount moves more than its speed? As for readying an action to shoot: I coved this once, but I do it one more time. The only, and I mean only, standared action that can be taken after your mount has begun a double move is a ranged attack, and it must be done at the mid-point of the move. If you reach the mid-point, and haven't seen your opponit yet, you can not then ready an action for when you do. Why? Because the ready action ability requires you to be able to preform a standard action. Your not able to preform standard actions once your mount has already begun its double move. However, you could ready your actions before the mount begins its double move. The action still wouldn't resolve on your turn, as the rules prohibit you shooting an attow past your mid-point or attacking at the end of your move, as soon as your turn ends, you have no longer double moved that turn, and your ready action resolves. So, before you move ready an attack like, "attack when withen reach of my opponit" then double move next to him, and you will attack, since when your turn ends your readyed action condition is met. The same could be said for an arrow. "I want to fire as soon as I'm whiten 60' of him." Then double move to withen 60'. You can't fire an arrow at the end of a double move, so it prohibits your ready action from resolving then, but as soon as the turn ends, you have no longer double moved on that turn so your ready action resolves, and you fire. The section should probably be much clearer in the book, but after reading over the rules 4 times in the last 2 days, and thinking on them to the point of staying up at nights, this seems to be the only way to attact at the end of a double move, and still be completly withen the rules. And while were on the topic of making sense, as Prexx and I were. What dosen't make sense to me about mounted combat is that it takes 6 seconds for your mount to double move to a foe, and then if you could still attack, it would make very little sense to me at all. If I saw a horse, comming at me, with a man with a big sword in his hand on it, you can better belive that in 6 seconds, I'm gona dang sure be somewhere else when that horse rides by. But, these is a game, and often reality must be suspended to make things workable. A few things about mounted combat don't seem to make sense at first glance, but so do a few things in every section. "Full round action to ready alchy fire? What exactly do readying a glass vile full of liquid entail? Writing your name on it?" Anyway, The readyed actions alow you to ignore most of the restrictions aobut double moves. But If anyone else has entreprated these rules differenty, I would love to hear your reasoning. |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-14-03, 08:46 AM | Well, i don't know what book your reading MB, but you got the attack after a move wrong with mounted combat. I didn't wanna get intot his argument here, as it's quite a simple rule really, but you moderate fights so lets get this clear here then. ...from phb p.157 Mounted Combat/Combat while mounted: If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can't make a full attack. That's pretty clear to me. If my light warhorse, has a move of 60', and he double moves 120' toward my enemy, which incidently is more than 5', i get to make an attack, but my horse doesn't. **EDIT** Your readied action notion is silly. Mounted combat is simple. Basic actually. And quite a staple of many outdoor combats. Read some older mounted combat fights. The rider has both move actions and standard actions available to them. If i double move my mount, i can ready to shoot. Why? Because i have a standard action to do it with. What you are suggesting goes against the entire grain of mounted combat. I haven't posted on your discussion but then it dawned on me you moderate fights. SO it needs to be cleared up. Tellish **EDIT** Wasn't trying to be snarky, just very exhausted. :) |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-14-03, 09:45 AM | Hey guys, Just wanted to shout out a reminder to all mods that before changing the +'s on their to-hits of their weapons to look at their equipment and ask why it is the way it is if you disagree. I'm only saying this because two of my fights with archery had their +'s to hit modified without taking into account i had mw arrows. Kelek also currently heavily relies on archery and he uses MW arrows. MW arrows are cheaper than a bow in the early stages and generally i'll have the money to buy a magical one if needed before the gold even starts to equal the cost addition of a MW bow. No harm no foul, just thought i'd give a friendly reminder to all. About Nevrlokagyft and his DC 21 crafted bow: to whomever mentioned it, thx for pointint it out. It has been rectified. Tellish |
| Elgonn12-14-03, 10:21 AM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket About Nevrlokagyft and his DC 21 crafted bow: to whomever mentioned it, thx for pointint it out. It has been rectified. Tellish Your welcome. @Arstimis Your new character is non-core. Read the rules posted for character creation. Elgonn |
| Jindl12-14-03, 10:57 AM | @Mo - the crafting, stealthing, memorizing guidelines are mostly correct. The only minor changes I would make is that the arena is now a cylinder with a height of 200 feet. Please make that change in both the arena rules and the arena map. I would like a vote on using the 3 consecutive losses = a win rule. It seemed to have a lot of support. I'll be happy to post the exact guidelines I suggest again, if needed. -Jindl |
| Magagumo12-14-03, 11:09 AM | I was utterly baffled by the command undead reference, until I saw Iron had a new red dragon friend... I might have missed this on your sheet, Moh, but you did pay the extra 2500 for Rona, right? CR of Young Adult Red Dragon (13) - Iron's level (8)= 5*5= 25* 100= 2500 gp. I'm sure the cleric who has only rarely lost has cash to spare, but make sure you fix that after this fight ^_~ Edit: Everyone rushing for intiative is fairly standard in D & D, though. It's a well-known fact in my campaign, that if the party goes before the monster, the monster tends to die. Thusly, many high CR monsters either have high dex and II to get them high in the count, or they also have a variety of ways (SR, DR, Res, Immunities, and/or regeneration/fast healing) to keep them alive. Check 3.0 Demons and devils vs. 3.5 Dem/dev, most of their dex rose by 8 points or more, and their inititiative is +12 (balor's I think), vs the old +3 or so. So we're paying CR^2 x 100? Mega ouch... If this is so, then I would prefer not having to retroactively pay for the skeletons purchased prior to my cloud giant (George hit Moon-Moon once, and Turkish just stood there and looked pretty). I will happily discard the excess skels, but Im not big on having to pay 8100gp for a skel I didnt use. Hey M0h, you know Iron's going to have to put out 16900 to keep Rona? It was 2500 on my plan.. Join the dark side!! :D Anyways, my 2c on Initiative- Yes, it is very critical to the game, and can sometimes win or lose fights, but that's life. In the Bruno v. Harvester fight, we both had extensive tactics laid out for a multi-round brawl that would leave zombe and skeleton dust in its wake. On the off-chance I won Initiative (w/o Improved Init. ;)) I figured I'd give my signiture spell, the entire reason I bulit Bruno, a shot here. Harvester had decent odds of making the will (50%) and a decent chance on the Fort (40%), and it happened that he failed. First of all, cheapest fight either of us has ever had :-P. Secondly, that trick does not work all the time.. Jindl has an even better chance on those saves (curse you 18 Con ;)), the Elder's will is impressive, and he can shatter me first-turn with a feeblemind spell. I suppose Moon-moon is the best example of all, since I can't even pull this trick on him. In conclusion, yes Inititiative can win or lose fights, but so can the saves we make. We arent about to change that Core aspect of the game, so why change the rest of it? The first round isn't a surprise round, or one person would not be going at all... If we were to switch to this method, I would be alright for scoping it out, as it allows 1st turn buffs, but I'm sure someone out there who likes to catch their opponent's flatfooted, will be crying because of this system ;) If majority says try surprise round, I vote we try it. Edit (2x): I see what you mean, Moh, the votes on the skeleton prices are confusing. I see abstantions that say your methodd is too expensive, I see ones agreeing with my method, I see a 200*CR^2 (You're insane, I will not pay 5000 for a CR 5 ^_^;;).. It's all over the board. .. *sigh* Honestly, Moh, do you plan on selling Rona after this fight? Cause your way wont let you keep her.. and I honestly think that a gladiator's level plays a big part in all of this... How hard is it for Iron, Bruno, or Harvester to kill a CR 5 monster? That's a yuan-ti halfblood or a winter wolf or a dire lion. These things are pushovers to your charges (or my PK), so why must we buy the corpse, then pay cash to have it raised, then have to buy equipment if it isn't a dragon or such, then have to create clever tactics to make a creature (which a 1st level spell, hide from undead beats) useful? I'm getting tired of saying this, and I'm sure you're all sick of listening to me, but making us pay that much money is simply shouting "Don't do this!!" to us, and that's not very nice ^_~. In the end, A Barbarian or fighter with Power Attack will mince our skels *Mara, cough* :). So whhy take them away? Just buy yourself a greatclub or slashing weapon and get going! :-P Btw, Moh, curse your barding that does not rob Rona of attack bonus ;) There's a reason masterwork studded leather armor is the choice amongst Bruno's skeletons (ACP- 0). Lucky so-and-so :) |
| Jindl12-14-03, 11:55 AM | I agree with Magagumo's reasoning on the corpse prices, though I think his method is a little to cheap. I support the following cost method: [Character's ECL - Monster's CR]^2 x 200 gp. This is slightly more expensive than what Magagumo had posted. But hopefully it is more appealing to those who want the CR^2 method. For example, Rona would now cost 5000 gp, which I think is a reasonable price (compared to a griffen, hippogryph, or pegasus). At the same time, this encourages necromancers to wait until higher level to animate the tougher monsters. Would everyone agree on this? @Mag - Check out my vote on the initiative/surprise round. Tell me what you think ;) Welcome to Elgonn, btw. Will you be posting a gladiator, moderating, or just lurking? -Jindl |
| Elgonn12-14-03, 12:02 PM | Originally posted by Jindl Welcome to Elgonn, btw. Will you be posting a gladiator, moderating, or just lurking? -Jindl I have been lurking since page 1. But I wasn't paying as much attention back then as I am now. I will probably end up posting a gladiator and helping our moderating if need be but at the moment I can't think of which of 3 builds I should try. Elgonn |
| fluiddragon12-14-03, 12:59 PM | About inititaive: This being the core arena, it opens the door to house rules which we try to avoid. But the fights are not as much fun with the insta-kills. In the sake of fun I would be willing to here ideas on how to modify this. But if initiative is less important than any character who was built relying on this rule should have a chance to adjust their feets and ability scores. I'm open to suggestions. I have never won or lost a figtht on the first round but it stinks if you lose and anticlimatic if you win. So in the sense that it would make the arena more fun I would be open to sugetions. -fd edit: I will post the Brackin vs Bilo fight tonight. I was shopping all day yesterday, and praying to the gods of consumerism. I have to go over the clarified listen rules and type the fight up. |
| Elgonn12-14-03, 01:59 PM | Originally posted by fluiddragon So in the sense that it would make the arena more fun I would be open to sugetions. -fd The easiest core way to prevent opening round kills is to redesign the arena so that you can't achieve LOS in one round. Elgonn |
| Magagumo12-14-03, 02:29 PM | Hmm, I approve of your idea, Jindl (yea.. I admit my system is a little cheap.. cause that Titan looked tempting next level :-P) If you guys want, i will edit Bruno to reflect this price version, and you can judge the impace (it will be another 400 for Tony, and 200 for Turkish). I guarnetee you this will keep me away from anything bigger for awhile.. I was going to grab Mickey the Titan at 14th (4900 gp is a steal, but 9800 will actually dent the finances, bravo :)) I was glancing things over, and the prospect of a first-turn kill is unimaginably difficult. For example, Beating harvester in initiative meant I needed to roll 5 higher than him (30%) then he had to fail the Will (50%) and fail the Fort (60%) All totaled this is a total chance of 9%. If one in 10 battles are won by bruno do to Initiative and Phantasmal Killer, that's only one out of the 11 fights I've fought in to get to this point. The odds are very small. Furthermore, physical crits are impossible w/o power attack (and a x3 or x4 crit mulitplier). If Mara had critted on Gage in the first round with a bow, she could have rolled max damage and he would still be alive. As I said, suprise round isn't terrible, though you are actually making casters stronger (one round of buffing without any chance of interruption means auto invisibility). And changing the arena format is only going to cause pain as old tactics are radically changed (hard for Mods to rem and cope as well). Just 2 more cents Mara v Gage is up Edit: read your suggestion Jindl. Oy, do you want to guarentee that casters are going to win? ;) I'd love to fight someone with myself even more dangerous... Oh, and Cat? I'd go with the helm of telepathy.. I have a worse chance of surviving then you would ;) |
| MotherBast12-14-03, 03:20 PM | Tellish, your ignoring the part where it says you may attack with no penalty if your mount moves it's full speed. It dosen't go on to say you can attack if your mount moves beyond its full speed. So you can't. It is very simple. Full speed is quite simply the full amount listed for the mount's speed. This rule dosen't go aginst anything in mounted combat, because it is one of the rules of mounted combat. I know my readyed action stuff is very silly, and should be completly unnecessary. Its really stupid to have to do, and makes absolutly no sense when you think about it, but it is completly workable in the rules structure, not contradicting with any of the mounted combat rules. Attacking at the end of a double move is clearly not alowed, so only a readyed action could make it happen. The bottom line is, you have to be able to show a rule saying you can do something, or you can't do it. The book clearly leaves attacking after a double move out, simply because it can't be done. |
| Ethendril12-14-03, 03:59 PM | I have been lurking since page 1. But I wasn't paying as much attention back then as I am now. I will probably end up posting a gladiator and helping our moderating if need be but at the moment I can't think of which of 3 builds I should try. Ah-HA! It's CAT! |
| Arstimis12-14-03, 04:48 PM | i just posted a build that i think now is legal, but i am not sure really how to play this way. How do i know who i am fighting, and when i have to send in my tactics? Do i send my tactics for 1 rounds, or what? any help would be appreciated ~thanks |
| Elgonn12-14-03, 04:48 PM | @Magagumo The durations you listed on some of the spells in the Mara vs. Gage fight were wrong. Conversion from minutes to rounds went badly? [Not that this mattered at all as the fight was concerned.] @Ethendril Ah-HA! Your one to talk especially since we all know you really are Jindl. @MotherBast & Tellish I wouldn't say that it is very clear. You are arguing over the meaning of the term 'full speed', which isn’t directly defined anywhere. But there are other examples to help extrapolate its meaning. Just plain 'speed' is defined. "speed: The number of feet a creature can move when taking a move action." Remember too that normal movement is not running or charging. But many other areas use the term. For reference: Mounted Combat 3.5 SRD Combat while Mounted: With a DC 5 Ride check, you can guide your mount with your knees so as to use both hands to attack or defend yourself. This is a free action. When you attack a creature smaller than your mount that is on foot, you get the +1 bonus on melee attacks for being on higher ground. If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can’t make a full attack. Even at your mount’s full speed, you don’t take any penalty on melee attacks while mounted. If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance (see Charge). You can use ranged weapons while your mount is taking a double move, but at a –4 penalty on the attack roll. You can use ranged weapons while your mount is running (quadruple speed), at a –8 penalty. In either case, you make the attack roll when your mount has completed half its movement. You can make a full attack with a ranged weapon while your mount is moving. Likewise, you can take move actions normally Casting Spells while Mounted: You can cast a spell normally if your mount moves up to a normal move (its speed) either before or after you cast. If you have your mount move both before and after you cast a spell, then you’re casting the spell while the mount is moving, and you have to make a Concentration check due to the vigorous motion (DC 10 + spell level) or lose the spell. If the mount is running (quadruple speed), you can cast a spell when your mount has moved up to twice its speed, but your Concentration check is more difficult due to the violent motion (DC 15 + spell level). Move Silently 3.5 SRD Check: Your Move Silently check is opposed by the Listen check of anyone who might hear you. You can move up to one-half your normal speed at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than your full speed, you take a –5 penalty. It’s practically impossible (–20 penalty) to move silently while running or charging. Noisy surfaces, such as bogs or undergrowth, are tough to move silently across. When you try to sneak across such a surface, you take a penalty on your Move Silently check as indicated below. Tumble 3.5 SRD Accelerated Tumbling: You try to tumble past or through enemies more quickly than normal. By accepting a –10 penalty on your Tumble checks, you can move at your full speed instead of one-half your speed. Balance 3.5 SRD Accelerated Movement: You can try to walk across a precarious surface more quickly than normal. If you accept a –5 penalty, you can move your full speed as a move action. (Moving twice your speed in a round requires two Balance checks, one for each move action used.) You may also accept this penalty in order to charge across a precarious surface; charging requires one Balance check for each multiple of your speed (or fraction thereof ) that you charge. Incorporeal 3.5 SRD An incorporeal creature moves silently and cannot be heard with Listen checks if it doesn’t wish to be. It has no Strength score, so its Dexterity modifier applies to both its melee attacks and its ranged attacks. Nonvisual senses, such as scent and blindsight, are either ineffective or only partly effective with regard to incorporeal creatures. Incorporeal creatures have an innate sense of direction and can move at full speed even when they cannot see. Every possible ‘full speed’ quote. On the whole I have to say that given its use it is defined as how Motherbast is interpreting it. The Move Silently example is very clear on the issue. Therefore you cannot make an attack if your mount moves more than its base speed signifying that the mount and you are not separate creatures independent of each other but that when mounted you can take a move action to move the mount’s speed rather than yours. Elgonn |
| Elgonn12-14-03, 04:49 PM | [deleted] |
| Magagumo12-14-03, 04:57 PM | @Elgonn - Mind telling me whcih durations were off? I can't tell upon reviewing it ^_^;; |
| Caterane12-14-03, 05:16 PM | @Mag: Helm of telepathy, 27.000. Sure. 9% chance of being killed by Phantasmal killer? --> @Besheba: You $uck as a goddess. I worship Tymora now!!! Our D&D session is over for today. Easily killed a 16 Hd Gargantuan Spider @ level 7 (without fly) and my necromancer is even less optimized than the Harvester or Ebelin. |
| Elgonn12-14-03, 05:18 PM | @Magagumo Well not really off but they didn't lose duration or define their expiration point so it was kinda odd. Also I was thinking that invis still lasted 10 min/level (Damn 3.0!). @Cat Forget both Tymora and Beshaba. Worship Tyche (best of both worlds). No core arena time line to worry about. Elgonn |
| SnarkHunter12-14-03, 05:25 PM | Originally posted by fluiddragon edit: I will post the Brackin vs Bilo fight tonight. I was shopping all day yesterday, and praying to the gods of consumerism. I have to go over the clarified listen rules and type the fight up. That's rather disturbing fluid, I can imagine one or two roles being this important...but i do find it terrifying. Post it whenever you can :angel:. |
| fluiddragon12-14-03, 05:32 PM | Originally posted by SnarkHunter That's rather disturbing fluid, I can imagine one or two roles being this important...but i do find it terrifying. Post it whenever you can :angel:. I just want to make sure I did it right is all... Its not super time consuming, just other duties kept me from posting. It'll be up tonight. I'm going to contunue the Bilo - Harvester story line from Bilo's last fight. -fd |
| Jindl12-14-03, 05:37 PM | Is a spectral hand visible? The spell description seems to indicate it is. If it is visible (even when the caster is invisible), then can you sneak attack with it? Is your opponent flat-footed (unless they have uncanny dodge, of course)? Do you get the +2 to attacks for being invisible? Also, it is resolved as a melee attack. So would feats like Blind-fight apply if it is invisible? -Jindl |
| MotherBast12-14-03, 05:41 PM | Elgonn, thanks for your partial support man. However, when mounted, you and your mount are concidered seprate creatures, with seprate actions. If no movement is involved, both could preform full attacks, for instance. If your mount moves, however, you are limited in the actions you can take. The mounted combat section details all actions you may take when your mount moves, and when you must take them. It occures to me after reading over my last couple of posts last night, I was very unclear in the description of how the readyed actions would work to get around the limatations on mounted combat. When using a readied action, it resolves as soon as the conditions set for it are met, unless a seprate condition would make the readied action impossible. The simplest example I could think of would be an archer, waiting at a door, readies an action to shoot the first person who walks through it. Then three guys walk though. Normally the archer would shoot the first one with his readied action, but it just so happens the first one had a tower shield he was using for total cover. The conditions for the readied action are met, but the inability to attack a foe with total cover means the readied action would not resolve. The second and third guys through the door would also not be shot, as neither were the first one through, so neither would met the condition for the readied action. In this case the inatitave count would cycle back to the archer without his readied action ever resolving. A similar situation would happen when a rider readies an action before double moving. The readied action might be to attack withen range of the foe. Then the double move would occur. Since a rider can not attack during a double move, that condion would prevent the readied action from resolving. When the characters turn ends, however, he is no longer double moving, and the condition for his readied action is still met, so the action would resolve, as there is no longer a conditon preventing it from taking place. Basicly, its the same exact thing as preforming a double move and then attacking, just withen the scope of the rules. As far as the way it works in game, the two would be exactly the same, with the exception that effects that ran out on your initative count might not affect your readied action. |
| fluiddragon12-14-03, 07:00 PM | Originally posted by Jindl Is a spectral hand visible? The spell description seems to indicate it is. If it is visible (even when the caster is invisible), then can you sneak attack with it? Is your opponent flat-footed (unless they have uncanny dodge, of course)? Do you get the +2 to attacks for being invisible? Also, it is resolved as a melee attack. So would feats like Blind-fight apply if it is invisible? -Jindl Good observations. Under normal contitions it is visible : "A ghostly, glowing hand shaped from your life force materializes..." It is not clear how invisibility effects it. Is it a part you, as it is made from your life force? Is it an object? Is it equipment? It is not clear at first glance. I will show that it is a part of you. The way I have always played it and had it played (right or wrong never thought about it this much) Was that if you were invisible then it was invisible. Looking at the spell description I would say that it is an extention of you as it is made up of your life force (takes hit points away) and uses your Int bonus for ac. Being that it is an extention of you and if destroyed you loose the hit points. Then I would say it is invisible. Also the hand is listed as glowing, but not sheding light. I would say if it was dark and you were not invisible then the hand could give away your position. But you could not use it to read from. (Think of that glowing green plasitc that glows when you hold it up to the light.) Sheding light is verydifferent from glowing. If it was listed as sheding light like a candle or torch, then you would not be able to use invisibility as ".... Light, however, never becomes invisible..." The intent of the spell is to simply deliver touch spells at range. There are 3 ways to deliver touch spells. 1. By touching the target in person. 2. Having a familiar do it (which is almost the same as you doing it as the familiar is an extention of you). 3. Spectral Hand which is made up of your life force. There are a number of limitations on the spell. 1. It takes 1d4 hit points away from you which can be lost if the hand is destroyed. 2. medium range 3. It can be destroyed by anything that can strike incoporeal beings (ghost touch, certain spells ect.) 4. Only L4 spells and under can be delivered. 5. You have to make an attack roll, it is not automatic. 6. Does not make a ranged touch attack but a touch attack. If you have a low str you will get penalties to hit with it. You need weapon finesse to be able to use your dex mod. 7. Cannot flank Being visible when you are invisible is not listed in the spell description, and would be considered a big disadvantage of the spell. If you have the means to attack the hand, like a ghost touch weapon, and the hand was invisible then I would say that blind fight and the like would work against the hand. As long as the timing was correct because the hand returns to its owner after an attack. Also in all likelyhood the hand will be out of range once it attacks and it doesn't provoke attacks of oportunity. Ations and conditions that do draw AoO are clearly defined. Dispel Magic or an area effect damaging spell that can damage incopreal creatures would be the best way to get rid of it. Or if you are in melee range then attacking it would probably not be as good as attacking the caster, though an ally could try to take out the hand as long as they could harm it. From my point of view based on the above arguments, being it is part of your life force and does not shed light, that it is indeed invisible if the caster is invisible. The only ways to deliver touch spells are basically extentions of you. And even familiars can share your spell effects when close to you. (If it was dark then some DM's might rule that the glow could be seen even invisible but in normal light it would not be an issue, and given that it glows, but does not shed light I would rule that even invisible in the dark it would not give away its position). Given that you have to make an attack roll you can sneak attack with it. To conter it if, if it is visible you need to beable to damage incopreal objects/creatures. If it was invisible unless you could see it blind fight would be nearly useless as it leaves your square, attacks your opponent and then returns. A propery worded ready action might work though. Ready an action to attack it after it hits you, and then you could attack it. Balance issues: It is a very effective form of attack if used properly. But it takes 1 extra standard action to activate. It relies on your strength score for hit probability, which is a dump stat for most acrane casters. Requires weapon finesse to be able to use it effectively basically devoteing a feat to 1 spell. It takes hit points away from you. It can be destroyed, albeit difficultly, and has a limited range. I think this more than makes up for its funtionality, which allows you to deliver touch attacks at medium range with a +2 to hit bonus. Now my concerns. Spectral Hand is a cornerstone of Gage's tactics, I basically built his build around it. (I have invested over 2700 gp in it between scrolls and the wand) and My iconic character, Fluiddragon is simply a refined version of Gage. If all of a sudden the hand always gave away your position then it would severely nerf both of these characters, to the point that they would be nearly unplayable. Too much of thier build is based upon it. It is one of my main attack modes. If it was arbitraily deemed visible no matter what when the rules are silent on it I would simply retire both charcters, and come up with other builds, as 1/2 my tactics would become unviable and if I played a sorcerer would basically be limited to the same cliche' spells all the other sorcerers use, as the core spell list is not very broad. It would be quite difficult to be effective and look like a different character than Octavian. I think my arguments are strong, what do you all think? -fd |
| sshuit12-14-03, 07:11 PM | @fluid. I don't know if I buy the whole spectral hand is invisible if I'm invisible line... I would think that I might allow you to cast a 2nd invisibility on it to make it invisible as well. It certainly isn't part of you the same way your arm or leg is, and it certainly isn't equipment either. If you were to rule that the hand IS part of you, then an attack by the hand would be an attack by you and therefore the spell would end once the hand was used to deliver a spell... What does everyone else think? |
| Arstimis12-14-03, 07:12 PM | just for clarification, it would have to be greater invisibility, not just inivisibility, would it not. Once the attack was made, the attacker would become visible. But i agree with the rest of fluid's statements anyways, as i asked in my previous post... i just posted a build that i think now is legal, but i am not really sure how to play this way. How do i know who i am fighting, and when i am fighting? When do i have to send in my finalized tactics? Do i send my tactics for 1 round, or what? any help would be appreciated ~thanks |
| sshuit12-14-03, 07:14 PM | Pairing for who you are fighting will be up on Wednesday sometime. You can read the pairings on the 1st page of the gladiators thread. Tactics have to be sent in by Friday, and you send in your tactics for the whole fight. Look at the Fights thread and you can see examples of the strategies people use. sshuit Originally posted by Arstimis i just posted a build that i think now is legal, but i am not really sure how to play this way. How do i know who i am fighting, and when i am fighting? When do i have to send in my finalized tactics? Do i send my tactics for 1 round, or what? any help would be appreciated ~thanks |
| Elgonn12-14-03, 07:28 PM | Originally posted by MotherBast Elgonn, thanks for your partial support man. However, when mounted, you and your mount are concidered seprate creatures, with seprate actions. I didn't mean to imply that they were seperate at all just that you can't think of them as seperate. They have more of a symbiotic relationship. What each does limits what the other can do. @fd I would say after reading spectral hand and invis that the hand would be invisible until it attacks and gets 10' from the caster. Where it would be outside of the range of the invisibility spell. Therefore I don't think you could be attacking as an invisible attacker. No flat footed opponent, etc.. Using spectral hand as your main tactic isn't bad until you face someone with Magic Missile. Elgonn |
| fluiddragon12-14-03, 07:31 PM | Originally posted by sshuit @fluid. I don't know if I buy the whole spectral hand is invisible if I'm invisible line... I would think that I might allow you to cast a 2nd invisibility on it to make it invisible as well. It certainly isn't part of you the same way your arm or leg is, and it certainly isn't equipment either. If you were to rule that the hand IS part of you, then an attack by the hand would be an attack by you and therefore the spell would end once the hand was used to deliver a spell... What does everyone else think? If you are invisible with the 2nd level invisibility then attacking with the hand is considered an attack and you become invisible. This was assumed in my above dissertation. The hand IS you. It is simply like having a REALLY long arm that is retractable! edit: As far as magic missile is concerned. If it is an extention of you would a shield spell stop magic missiles? Can you cas spells on a spectral hand like improved invisibility? Not sure. |
| Elgonn12-14-03, 07:36 PM | Originally posted by fluiddragon The hand IS you. I don't think the hand is any more you than the shield created by the shield spell or any of the bigby creations. I think the hit point loss is to signify the connection between the two that allows a touch spell to be delivered via the hand. Not that you just grew a 3rd really long incorporeal arm/hand. Elgonn |
| fluiddragon12-14-03, 08:15 PM | Originally posted by Elgonn I don't think the hand is any more you than the shield created by the shield spell or any of the bigby creations. I think the hit point loss is to signify the connection between the two that allows a touch spell to be delivered via the hand. Not that you just grew a 3rd really long incorporeal arm/hand. Elgonn spectral hand is part of your life force, shield is not. |
| sshuit12-14-03, 08:19 PM | @fluid. It takes your life energy to give it "life", that doesn't make it part of you, it makes it a necromantic spell. That's a pretty subtle distinction but a distinction all the same. I would say that even if I allowed it to become invisible, I certainly wouldn't let it be invisible beyond 10' as per the invisibility spell description. |
| fluiddragon12-14-03, 08:25 PM | Originally posted by sshuit @fluid. It takes your life energy to give it "life", that doesn't make it part of you, it makes it a necromantic spell. That's a pretty subtle distinction but a distinction all the same. I would say that even if I allowed it to become invisible, I certainly wouldn't let it be invisible beyond 10' as per the invisibility spell description. As long as it is not always visible. Only a ready action will allow it to be attacked in this instance and you could still sneak attack or catch your opponent flat footed. And they have to blow a standard action to ready an action. It is simple enough to include that in my tactics to counter it, and switch strategies. At best it would help them know your general location, unless you were within 10' of them. Now can you cast spells on your spectral hand like, shield, mirror image, false life, blur, invisibility etc? (Though at this point you might as well use your familliar) |
| sshuit12-14-03, 08:42 PM | @FD Since its ethereal you can keep the hand "inside" your invisible body so it couldn't be seen at all until you strike with it. But beyond 10' I feel it would lose your invisibilty... As usual the rules are unclear and there are many possible interpretations. There are no "wrong" interpretations, only different ones. |
| fluiddragon12-14-03, 08:42 PM | Gage is partially updated, With my prebuffs at minimum I start with as many hit points as most fighters, and loose 2 2nd level slots for it. 18 con is nice! I'm really starting to have fun with sorcerers. I think they are quite powerfull, and 8th level opens up a slew of options. And 9th will be loads of fun for the whole family, as further tactical options open up. I just wish there was more flavor for sorcerers. The base class makes you feel like your missing out. But I've finally stopped spending 1-2K on each fight. I do have to say that the flexibility of spontaneous casting is very very nice. I can set up 3 or 4 different tactics and adjust to the situation as needed. Which would be very hard with a wizard. Especially now that we are correctly making characters spend a move action to grab a scroll. At 6-7th level I started feeling less and less dependent on scrolls. A few defensive options on scroll and offenive known spells. It starts to feel like you are comming into you own at this point. With good tactics you can start to control the length of the battle and bring the vast number of spells to bear. I think clerics will be tough though, as they start with a fair amount of hit points, and if they take the right buffs it will be hard to damage them enough to drop them with spells alone. The spontaneaous healing makes these guys very hard to beat. I noticed this and tried to emulate this with my sorcerer build. The core damaging spells are almost all elemental based and these can be easilly guarded against. I really wish they made energy substitution a core feat in 3.5 :weep: There are not many options. There is always dispel magic though, which is very nice for a sorcerer, if you fail once try again! |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-14-03, 09:03 PM | So MB you are basing your WHOLE concept on one line? "Even at your mount's full speed, you dont' take a penalty on melee attacks while mounted" ? right? Ok, my mount moves 50', hey look at that, i moved it's full speed....ok, move another 50', hey, it just moved anotehr fulll speed...look at that, i still don't suffer any penalties to my attack. what a coincedence. I think you are reading too much into one line and trying to extrapolate an entire new meaning. Why is it then that i horse can charge, ride-by, and still attack, but you can't attack when it double moves? C'mon...lets not twist it into something that isnt. You can attack after the horse's double move, plain and simple. Why? Because it says i can that's why. You can argue if you wish, i just hope you don't run any of my mounted fights. Tellish |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-14-03, 10:02 PM | Done....and posted. Took 4 posts, but it's all there. Story, nitty gritty rolls, character sheets and tactics. 96 rounds. ugh. I left it in it's unedited format. So it's there, errors and all. :) And there are some. 1st round: Iron should not have been allowed to spurr Rona. Rona is not an animal, and would have needed to have been commanded to move there as it cannot act on its own without it's masters orders. Not spurred. It had no bearing on the fight, so i just left it as is. MUCH later, round 90+, Ebelin successfully grappled Iron when Iron was protected by Freedom of Movement. Again, my mistake and since it wasn't the cause of the end of the fight, i decided to leave the mistake in, just for ppl to see. I could have edited it out without changing the outcome of the battle. You might have noticed that Rona did NOT take an AoO on Ashteru in round 20-30'ish (not sure exactly where) and that's because Rona's orders were to attack Ebelin. Ppl must remember when using undead in their fights, they only do EXACTLY what you tell them. This was a huge testing ground for the use of a skeleton as a mount and i think MO will agree, other than the hit points, they make HORRIBLE mounts, and they must be "programmed" properly each and every round unless it's something basic like "attack enemy until it's dead". For that I think Mag as the better undead servant as Mag can give it basic commands without affecting too much what he'll do or worry that it will lead him astray as he's not on its back. Remember, undead, mindless, they cannot do anything else on their own without your command to do so. This was a very difficult battle to run considering that. I may have messed up someplace, but it was a long battle. I don't think any mistakes i may have made were fight-breaking though. By all means please review ALL NINETY-SIX ROUNDS if you wanna comment. LOL. Tellish |
| MotherBast12-14-03, 10:50 PM | Tellish, it says you can? This is what I have been looking for. Show me where it says you can, and I will cease and desist my arguments. As I have said, I have read mounted combat 4 times in the last 2 days, and it dosen't say you can, thats why I would say you can't. If it does say you can, I have missed it. Point it out to me please. And as for moving your full speed, and then moving your full speed again, there is a term for that. Its called a double move. "Moving your speed" and "double move", two seprate and distecnt movements, with a different set of rules governing each. Normaly Tellish, I respect your arguments, as you tend to be, in my opinion at lest, one of the, if not the, most knowelegable players on this bord. As of yet though, your argumet seems to be based completly on what you think should be alowed, and not what the rules state. Show me that rule that says you may preform an attack after a double move, and I will admit you are correct. I'll be the first to admit I haven't memorized all of the rules in the PHB, but if there is a rule allowing you to attack after your mount preforms a double move, its not in the mounted combat section. Show it to me please. |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-14-03, 11:20 PM | Originally posted by MotherBast Tellish, it says you can? This is what I have been looking for. Show me where it says you can, and I will cease and desist my arguments. As I have said, I have read mounted combat 4 times in the last 2 days, and it dosen't say you can, thats why I would say you can't. If it does say you can, I have missed it. Point it out to me please. And as for moving your full speed, and then moving your full speed again, there is a term for that. Its called a double move. "Moving your speed" and "double move", two seprate and distecnt movements, with a different set of rules governing each. Normaly Tellish, I respect your arguments, as you tend to be, in my opinion at lest, one of the, if not the, most knowelegable players on this bord. As of yet though, your argumet seems to be based completly on what you think should be alowed, and not what the rules state. Show me that rule that says you may preform an attack after a double move, and I will admit you are correct. I'll be the first to admit I haven't memorized all of the rules in the PHB, but if there is a rule allowing you to attack after your mount preforms a double move, its not in the mounted combat section. Show it to me please. I will do my best to compile a list of reasons. Gimme a day or two as the weekend ends and work begins again. And i'll try to make it as technical as possible. With a conclusion as well. I'll argue both points, because i do understand what you're trying to say. I'm not ignoring it compeletly. You do have valid points. So i will research the subject and give a full point on it. Tellish |
| Draloth12-14-03, 11:23 PM | Iku Rex v. Toad posted, you can find it here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2087852#post2087852). ~Dral |
| Caterane12-14-03, 11:32 PM | :zzz: Oh my, half past 5 and I have to stand up in half an hour. I better go to bed. Three things though: 1) Tellish: that was great work! Cool story and a good reason why I am going to fight Iron. More comments tomorow. 2) Ebelin lost 3 times in a row. May he advance a level now? That would be cool for I may post a new character and challenge Irlina. 3) The reason why I am still awake despite having to work in an hour: finished Hanz vs Spike, rolls + story, including crowd modifiers. I`ll post it tomorow, well, today I mean, monday. G'night |
| Magagumo12-15-03, 12:24 AM | I definetely vote for the Iron v. Ebelin fight to be entered under "Amazing Fight Descriptions," they was truly entertaining Tellish. Thank you for the vote of confidence on useless skels, I love the lesson you taught me on held actions *George swings at Mara, but cannot hit her.. because she is 200' away ;)* I approve of the Ebelin upgrade, and all "lose three, gain a level" Moh, I will fix Zorander now (no crit! how can this be? :)), and don't forget to check over Ayan Rocfeather for entry into 2nd lvl roster |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-15-03, 12:24 AM | Guidlines for Undead Companions. You liked that about your skeleton attacking from 200' out? hehe. It's true. as funny as it may sound, they are completely mindless, and have no concept of anything other than what you tell them. And anything other than a quick simple order (something you could do on your free action of speaking) would could as a move. This could hurt a gladiator as well, unless he's sufficiently protected. But i need to warn skeleton riders. From here on, those orders need to be very well documented in tactics. Because technically, Iron's last order was while in the mist to attack anything that comes through the mist. There were other subtle orders which i reasoned Rona for actually coming out of the mist, but programming those things is gonna consume a large part of tactics. If your opponent is flying and you say, charge when opponent is visible, then sorry, but your undead companion is gonna try to jump for him with whatever it can try to reach...and if your opponent is 200' up ;) it will still make the attempt and this could cost you a valuable round as your companion hops around under the flyier trying to reach him. If you have a flying undead mount with poor flying maneuverability, you better be darn exact about what he's doing or it's gonna crash very fast. Giving a command of fly to the other end where my opponent is means he's only gonna fly to B and stop there. Giving them more intricate commands means taking up more of your actions to ensure they get listened to or performed properly. Zombies and Skeletons were generally made with defending an area in mind. Intelligent undead are the ones that can think and seek out opponents. I'm just saying, don't be surprised if if you give your mount a command to "Fly to 150'" and stands there flapping it's wings staring at the ceiling because it doesn't have perfect maneuverability to do that. Something just as quick and reasonable would be "Fly at a 45 degree angle to get to 150' in height" is very reasonable and doable with a free action. Both moderator and gladiator beware i guess would be the caveat on this. Probably one of the better and simpler commands for ground-pounding skele's would be to "defend me, even with ranged attacks." (assuming it's a rock thrower or has ranged capabilities) That way, he follows you, and defends you wherever you may go...no need to command him further for the remainder of the fight and you are free to do all your own stuff. Tellish |
| Magagumo12-15-03, 12:49 AM | Hehe, too true Tellish BTW, I believe the AoO was from zippy, whom I had declared dodge on and expected to assault me. Alos, Zorander is upgraded, props to Dragonrain for the "Ranger-Entangle Wand" trick, I'm sorry for copycatting, but this pure archer can't resist the temptation of rooting one's foe as you snipe them to pieces :D Thanks fluid ;) |
| Jindl12-15-03, 01:36 AM | Hrm, well that didn't quite go as planned. Why didn't I retry the invisibility scroll? Yes, I would have preferred more direct tactics, but I did have 7 hps to his 17, and was only a 1st level sorceror. So, I think my long range tactics are very appropriate, and not cowardly in any way. Also, Paul Hector vs Johan Talyana is posted. Please read the moderator's notes... Not much story, but some interesting information about the rules. -Jindl |
| Draloth12-15-03, 01:54 AM | Perhaps, but thats how an arena crowd would see them. And I didnt retry invis. because you specified what to do on round 2 and never put in a clause about retrying (it was rather bad luck on your part to roll two ones, heh). From what I've seen most mods here follow tactics to the letter to avoid getting yelled at, so I did so as well. ~Dral |
| Jindl12-15-03, 02:00 AM | I hope you will continue to follow the tactics closely. It's one of the things that players rely upon. It's no biggie in this case, but at the end of my tactics, in the special notes section, I did say that if I fail to activate any scrolls, then to retry that action. Again, no big deal. -Jindl |
| Draloth12-15-03, 02:04 AM | So you did, my apologies. I guess I was a bit too closely focused on your step by step method to look that far. Oh well, I dont see how it would've affected the fight in any way-with all your running around there was no chance for Toad to get a clear LoS to you anyway. Said tactic certainly is very effective, albit annoying to those facing you-Ex. Retreat is such a wonderful spell in this sort of area. ~Dral |
| cellardweller12-15-03, 02:08 AM | Paul's Listen 13 +2 -7 distance vs Move Silently 0 spellcasting -10 tower shield I think your interpretation of this is incorrect. srd In the case of people trying to be quiet, the DCs given on the table could be replaced by Move Silently checks, in which case the indicated DC would be their average check result. Johan was spellcasting and as such the standard "0 People talking" would have applied. No roll and hence no towershield penalty. Johan only used a 200gp item so I'm not fussed, but it should be noted for the future. |
| Jindl12-15-03, 02:16 AM | @cellardweller - Sorry. You're probably right. Argh, I hate making stupid mistakes. But, FYI, if any summoned opponent appeared, Paul would cast protection from chaos, sharing it with his mount, so your summons couldn't attack either of them. -Jindl |
| cellardweller12-15-03, 02:26 AM | Originally posted by Jindl But, FYI, if any summoned opponent appeared, Paul would cast protection from chaos, sharing it with his mount, so your summons couldn't attack either of them. Which is why my list of things to summon contained only LG, NG and N creatures ;) |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-15-03, 02:37 AM | Plus Celetial creatures have SR, so they would get an SR check to beat the pro alignment if it was the right one. Tellish |
| cellardweller12-15-03, 03:12 AM | It does raise an interesting point though. According to the srd protection from good/law/chaos create a barrier against their polar opposite, but protection from evil protects against neutral as well. As far as I can see one of the following must be true: 1) The designers wanted PfE to be more powerful 2) PfE was an editing oversight, it should not protect against N 3) PfG/L/C was an editing oversight, it should protect against N Can we get a definitive ruling before the next round? |
| Irlina12-15-03, 03:24 AM | @Draloth: A few points about the fight. Congrats to Jindl, good tactics. The duration for my spells was too long. I've got one caster lvl. wizard and cleric each, not caster lvl 2. So only 10 rounds duration. Why didn't I attack the Spectral hand w/ magic missile? My Range is good (110 foot) enough and 2hp are 1 magic missile? He was close enough in the last rounds (as far I can see!). When a scroll is unsuccesfully activated it disappears form the scroll. (p. 238 dmg "The writing for an activated spell disappears from the scroll." Therefore the scroll must NOT be successfully activated, simply activating it with whatever result destroys ist. The saving throw is just preventig more evil). So w/ the 2nd casting of shocking grasp he used a scroll not existing anymore... You will understand I am not very pleased about this point... |
| tate12-15-03, 03:25 AM | Hi everyone, I saw this thread and got sucked in. The whole gladiator arena thing is incredibly cool and I want in!! So do I have to do anything special or do I just post my build at ECL 2 and watch what happens? I'm a little unsure if I have to be a moderator and how that whole thing works, so any help in getting my character fighting asap would be great. Thanks in advance! |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-15-03, 03:34 AM | Originally posted by Cellardwellar It does raise an interesting point though. According to the srd protection from good/law/chaos create a barrier against their polar opposite, but protection from evil protects against neutral as well. As far as I can see one of the following must be true: 1) The designers wanted PfE to be more powerful 2) PfE was an editing oversight, it should not protect against N 3) PfG/L/C was an editing oversight, it should protect against N Can we get a definitive ruling before the next round? We ruled that Neutrals are affected by any pro. alignment. At least until a FAQ or Errata says otherwise. @Tate: welcome aboard. If you've read the entry rules and posted a character on the board, you will be added to the roster and paired up against another gladiator. Pairings are announced every wednesday and you have until Friday to send the moderator your tactics. You don't have to moderate if you own just one gladiator, but some of use :) like to try out different builds so we moderate and build more than one character. So that's it. Just post a character build that is CORE only (phb,dmg,mm) according to the rules and you're all set. Tellish |
| cellardweller12-15-03, 03:41 AM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket We ruled that Neutrals are affected by any pro. alignment. At least until a FAQ or Errata says otherwise. Good. I was worried as heck about coming up against a druid. |
| Draloth12-15-03, 05:23 AM | @Irlina: I was assuming that the hand would float around him until used, thus staying behind cover as well. Oh-hmm, I guess it would have been sent over when he first tried to cast Shocking Grasp, but unless it is required to stay at the target upon sending it would have returned when he was unable to cast. Thus, it never came out of cover during your turn. Perhaps if you had readied an action on seeing it you might have been able to destroy it, although that would have required leaving the total cover which you prized so much (as do I!...not that its done much good for me). Spell durations: my mistake, I see why you wanted to rebuff now :embarrass I guess I somehow got it into my head that you had two levels of wizard. Although stopping to rebuff with Virtue probably wouldn't have affected the fight in any way, it was an error on my part, thanks for pointing it out. Scrolls: The real sticker here, I simply followed what Jindl set in his tactics, trusting his (in most areas) superior knowledge of DnD rules. However, upon reading the SRD and thinking on what it says, a failed activation is still an activation, as such you are right, and the spell would vanish even if the will save is made. My apologies Irlina, the fight might have (probably would have) gone quite differently had I noticed this before. Also on this note, a general question to this thread-in the SRD it says that to use a scroll a successful Spellcraft check must be made to identify what is on said scroll. Are we using this rule? And if so, does it only apply to scrolls that were not scribed by the person casting? ~Dral |
| Moherajikuyx12-15-03, 06:27 AM | Warm welcomes to all the newcomers! Originally posted by Jindl @Mo - the crafting, stealthing, memorizing guidelines are mostly correct. The only minor changes I would make is that the arena is now a cylinder with a height of 200 feet. Please make that change in both the arena rules and the arena map. I would like a vote on using the 3 consecutive losses = a win rule. It seemed to have a lot of support. I'll be happy to post the exact guidelines I suggest again, if needed. -Jindl Yeah I just forgot both, you know me by now, I do forget things. Easily :rolleyes: ! Speaking of which, about the skeletons, I forgot to change my vote. Given the fact that we're probably allowing the leadership feat, I believe this balances everything, and that we don't need to pay for corpses anymore. No rules needed. This is my opinion at least. Of course I'm downgrading from alpha*CR^2 to alpha*delta(CR)^2 if we still want the corpses paid. *Edit* vote added. Note: Alterlat, MadCowTemplate, Magagumo: your votes are not being counted because the first word of each is neither "yes" nor "no". You might want to correct this. Originally posted by Elgonn The easiest core way to prevent opening round kills is to redesign the arena so that you can't achieve LOS in one round. This makes much sense. I started with this idea when I affed the obstacles, and this seems to be the best idea still. What about a triple block cube 15'x15'x15' in from of A and B? Welcome anyways, and try out all three your builds! :) Originally posted by Ethendril Ah-HA! It's CAT! :rofl: I love to think that this arena actracts many people, so I'll start a new tendency. All of us are really two persons using the same account! WE'RE DOUBLE!! Spectral hand: I believe it's visible, but if the wizo's inv, then when the hand's near him he may hide it under the vest or inside his body (he controls it after all) making it inv (thanks to the inv. spell, which works on equipment). If he attacks with the hand he becomes visible, the hand becomes visible as soon as it's out of its vest but the attack's instantaneous, so enemies are flat footed vs. the first attack. A magic missile will get rid of it easily, being a force effect. The issue of the targeting by other spells is quite strange though. Welcome Arstimis! Here are the >undead as mounts (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2088233#post2088233) guidelines. Tellish you might want to edit it to make it clearer for our new moderators. Thanks for the great job. When we settle the mounted combat dispute, I'll add a link to another guideline. Welcome tate! Draloth - I believe sold scrolls should be known. A wizard will have to reach the scribe DC by taking 10. Back to my fight... Soon to be posted. |
| Irlina12-15-03, 07:08 AM | @Draloth: I just saw the scroll issue was really in Jindl's tactic. Tsts, he's really one of the best rule-experts around here (even in our fight he used Alter Self: Ravid the right way and didn't want the flight ability. However I wonder whether this form can cast spells with gestures. Just look at his silly small claw.). He should know better. Appologue accepted as this can obviously happen the best of us ;) @scrolls: Anyone who buys a scroll should know the contend. However- here are some experts arround ( miau ) who buy hundreds of scrolls and can still find exactly the right one in combat. I always wonder how the character does that :) They should buy another feat: Grap exactly right stuff from disorganized backpack. And another rule question of mine about scrolls and wands? I know that scrolls aren't influenced by any feats the user knows like augument summoning etc. What is with wands? What's their DC and the use of User's feats? (i know we discussed it earlier in this thread but I can't find it right now). |
| fluiddragon12-15-03, 07:49 AM | Originally posted by cellardweller It does raise an interesting point though. According to the srd protection from good/law/chaos create a barrier against their polar opposite, but protection from evil protects against neutral as well. As far as I can see one of the following must be true: 1) The designers wanted PfE to be more powerful 2) PfE was an editing oversight, it should not protect against N 3) PfG/L/C was an editing oversight, it should protect against N Can we get a definitive ruling before the next round? How to defend against summoned creatures (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1909643#post1909643) I opened this thread awhile back. It is pretty clear. -fd |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-15-03, 08:40 AM | An idea for cash strapped PC's. Maybe allow gladiators who aren't fighting that week to earn money with their craft skills? Craft skill x10 doesn't seem unreasonable. That makes a guy with 2 craft skills at +10 each, taking 10, makes 200gp for his off week. It's certainly not unbalancing. Any other thoughts on this? @Fd, i've read and agreed. I think that's how we've generally always been doing it. @MO, i did some editing of the undead mount guideline post. If anyone else has any suggestions please feel free to post them, e-mail them to me or pm them. I'll continue to edit the post as different situations come up. Tellish. |
| Jindl12-15-03, 10:36 AM | Originally posted by Irlina @Draloth: I just saw the scroll issue was really in Jindl's tactic. Tsts, he's really one of the best rule-experts around here (even in our fight he used Alter Self: Ravid the right way and didn't want the flight ability. However I wonder whether this form can cast spells with gestures. Just look at his silly small claw.). He should know better. Appologue accepted as this can obviously happen the best of us ;) If I am incorrect, I do apologize. But, after re-reading the passage, I think the key is what is an activation. If you fail your caster level check, I do not think the scroll activates, or that the magic fades. If you fail your [edit] Wisdom Check [/edit, thanks Snark!], you do activate the scroll, but it causes a mishap and the magic fades. So, I still think that if you fail your caster level check, and make your wis check, then the scroll didn't activate, and you can try again. The SRD says the magic fades after a successful activation, which I think means you made your caster level check. Originally posted by Irlina @scrolls: Anyone who buys a scroll should know the contend. However- here are some experts arround ( miau ) who buy hundreds of scrolls and can still find exactly the right one in combat. I always wonder how the character does that :) They should buy another feat: Grap exactly right stuff from disorganized backpack. Draloth was right when he said that you must decipher any scroll that you wish to use, and that it requires a spellcraft check (taking 10 per the arena rules). However, most casters have read magic as a spell, and thus can automatically decipher any scrolls they buy. As for drawing the correct scroll, they're color coded and placed on the belt. Or some similar arrangement. It's still a move action to draw them (not like ammunition, where one arrow is as good as another and its a free action). Originally posted by Irlina And another rule question of mine about scrolls and wands? I know that scrolls aren't influenced by any feats the user knows like augument summoning etc. What is with wands? What's their DC and the use of User's feats? (i know we discussed it earlier in this thread but I can't find it right now). Only staves get to use the wielder's feats and ability scores. A wand's DC is calculated just like a scrolls: 10 +spell level +minimun ability score to cast that spell. For example: A wand of fireball. DC = 10 +3 spell level +1 ability mod (minimum 13 needed to cast is a +1 mod) = DC 14. Again, I apoligize if I'm wrong on the scroll thing. But I think I am right. We had a discussion on this thread like 60 pages ago about the same thing (but with Use Magic Device), and the result was that you could retry. @fluid - Stop giving out secrets on how to beat druids :P Or I'll start telling how to beat sorcerors... RE: Ravid form - Well, I think that spellcasting would be fine, as the form can speak, and it does have an appendage capable of fine manipulation, although only one claw (per the Alter Self spell, one should be enough). But, I don't think one could use a bow or other two-handed weapon while in Ravid form. So, I prolly would have had to dismiss the Alter Self before true striking and firing the bow at the dying dwarf. I'll remember that for next time (no two-handed weapons for Ravids). -Jindl |
| Pitlords12-15-03, 10:38 AM | :mymy: :weep: I just lost 5 hours of Kelek vs. Faldion, I never saved... |
| Jindl12-15-03, 10:54 AM | @Mo - Ouch. Gotta make sure you save buddy. @Prexx - Double check the price of potions of enlarge person... they're 250 gp not 50 gp. You may wanna (slightly) rename your character to have the original starting wealth again ... @Arstimis - FYI: Owl's wisdom, bull's strength, etc. no longer give a random 1d4+1 for several hours. Now its a flat +4 to the ability for 1 min / level. Other than that, your monk looks fine to me. Welcome to Arstimis and tate. -Jindl |
| Caterane12-15-03, 11:01 AM | Just woke up, missed a university course, came too late to work, Irlina lost ...seems like everything`s in order. @Mo: What?? I save every other minute!!! Seems like you just got a few new XPs. Ok what`s with Ebelin now? Update or no? On the one hand level 9 would be 4th lvl spells and my ressources are nearly completely up after 3 losses in a row. On the other side I don`t want to have a "bump" written next to him and I`d love to see him fight again next week. So you tell me if I would get the option and I decide then. As I already told you: my fight is finished but there are still things to be done (not related to the story or the rolls). Expect it the next few hours though. |
| SnarkHunter12-15-03, 11:02 AM | Fluid! Love the first 10 rounds but please stop teasing me! :twitch: Also the colors were a tad uh...wacky. you need to have [/color] after every line where you change the color. Jindle: just FYI its a straight wisdom check, not a will save. I recall you being correct on the scroll's sticking around thing though. Mo: IF you can recall everything that went into the first 5 hours, I think we can trust you to take it from there. Oh, and i think I did just fine on my Neurophys final! Wee! Time to start on tomorrows! |
| Jindl12-15-03, 11:18 AM | @Snark - Thanks, my post has been corrected. :D @Cat - Well, check the polls thread and vote yes on #15. Mo, posted the 3 loss bump as a vote. I think making it the player's option to bump after 3 losses is a good idea. @All - Please check the polls thead, there are several items to vote on. Also, make sure your vote begins with a yes, no, or abstain, otherwise Mo doesn't count it (Mag, Snark in particular have some uncounted votes...) -Jindl |
| Magagumo12-15-03, 11:40 AM | @Jindl- oy! So I do (begins voting) And I survived Physics 101.. if it weren't for the threat of him taking attendance, I never would have gone (I love requirements for my Major that involve classes I aced in high school :P.. almost as much as I hate requirements for Organic Chemistry *shakes fist at Snark*) @ Moh- Sorry to hear of your loss @ Tellish- So we would allow them to take 10 on the craft roll and see how they do for each week? It does represent the power of crafting, and isn't enough to be game shattering ;) Will we see ranks in profession next? :D I say we throw this one up on the vote thread as well.. I know of someone who would enjoy the crafting. |
| Moherajikuyx12-15-03, 12:21 PM | I'm posting Kelek vs. Faldion. There are 30 rounds missing :( I'm so sorry, I put quite an effort there to build a unique location. But I'm not going to rewrite all that. Really sorry. Tellish, I used the poison because I don't think you can put it back in the vial from the arrows, but if the guys here around tell I'm wrong, you may have it back (it didn't change anything). |
| Jindl12-15-03, 01:27 PM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Tellish, I used the poison because I don't think you can put it back in the vial from the arrows, but if the guys here around tell I'm wrong, you may have it back (it didn't change anything). I would agree with Mo. Once applied, you cannot put the poison back in the vial. But, you don't necessarily have to use the poisoned arrow either (though it seemed to work in this case.) @Mo - Did Kelek's warhorse die in the fight (and have to be replaced)? -Jindl |
| Magagumo12-15-03, 01:40 PM | Looked like a good fight, Moh, only thing that was missing occured when kelek rolled a 1 on his reflex save. When you crit fail on Reflex, one of your items is affected (there is a chart 10-1 on pg 177 of PHB). If the item isn't magcal, it gets no save but is dealt damage by the spell. You pick the four items most likely to be affected (Shield, Armor, Magical helm, item in hand, magic cloak, stowed or sheathed weapon, magic bracers, magic clothing, magic jewelry, other-- In this order) and roll a 1d4 to determine which of the top four are affected. In Kelek's case, it would have been his bow, then his gauntlet, and two stowed weapons (scythe and dagger most likely). None are magical, so whatever is selected, let's say the bow on a 1, takes 3d6 fire damage /2 for being an object and then subtracting 5 points for hardness. In this case, a bow has 5 hp, so the 3d6 fire would not have been sufficient to destroy it. In the end, this had little impact, but it's good for all Mods to be up on this rule, as some people could start throwing around 9d6 fireballs, and that's strong enough to destroy even magical iron weapons. And now you know :) |
| Moherajikuyx12-15-03, 01:51 PM | Originally posted by Jindl But, you don't necessarily have to use the poisoned arrow either (though it seemed to work in this case.) @Mo - Did Kelek's warhorse die in the fight (and have to be replaced)? Right. About the poisoned arrows - I used them to have the maximum bonus, +1 mw - all the mw arrows were coated sadly, else I'd use the not coated before, and the bow isn't mw. *Edit* You're right Mag |
| Caterane12-15-03, 02:00 PM | Tatatataaaaa Fight posted! But please read on: I have a special feature incorporated (surprise) so please click on a link when there`s one. I hope that everyone reads this post first before reading the fight but I nethertheless made sure that everyone clicks on the links :angel: For all those who didn`t follow our discussion: this fight includes CROWD MODIFIERS similar to those in the Complete Warrior Accessory book. Have a nice read. Hanz Vonnegut vs Spike (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2091199#post2091199) Yours Cat |
| LLMadCow12-15-03, 02:18 PM | @ALL (Especially Cat) - Are we allowed to special request moderators for a characters fight? I am looking at adding some backstory and character development stuff to Clìodhna d'Elrich and would like to have some colorful assistance with it... @CAT - I would really like your creative touch in this effort, and even if the idea of you modding my next fight is turned down, would you be willing to corrospond through e-mail with me and add some flavor to my upcoming character developement? Edit - Great fight, Cat! @PREXX and MOTHERBAST - Looking back over my last two fights, I just wanted to say thanks for modding them and I really appreciate the work you put into the story side of the fight as well as the numbers side. Good sotrytelling is an art, and I am wokriung on making my fights a little more entertaining. |
| Jindl12-15-03, 04:09 PM | Spell storing devices: I think we need to start listing spells stored in any spell storing device (rings of counterspelling, rings of spell-storing, the spell storing ioun stones, spell storing weapons, etc) as part of the equipment. They seem to be another form of pre-buff, and as such should come with equipment. Besides, if you want a spell put into your item that you cannot cast, then you must buy it, and that definately must take place as part of equipment. So, I think we need list these items before pairings. What do you guys think? -Jindl |
| Alathar Vierce12-15-03, 04:09 PM | Great fight Cat :bow: :bow: :bow: |
| Moherajikuyx12-15-03, 04:17 PM | *resurrects after having died laughing* Well Cat that was impressive. I had only now the time of reading the fights and I compliment all of you guys, Tellish you got Cat's throne as arena bard... For maybe two days. Then he got it back I fear. *Edit* ToK effectively wrote the best story, even though Cat wrote probably the most entertaining one. What two different figures could you be... The storyteller and the bard? Not different enough... Mhh.. - Jindl, your suggestion makes a lot of sense. So guys, is anybody really willing to use encryption software? Else we'd rather drop that option, I don't want to see it used only by one or two. |
| SnarkHunter12-15-03, 04:19 PM | Wow Cat, that was brutally good fun. Would it be unwise of me to say that went almost exactly as I expected it too? I checked out the skills and they look good to me, I'll wait for Market to tell me if I missed something. One thing I did notice, you added on Sneak attack for the AoO which I don't think was completly correct. wow...crowd modifiers, they certainly made it interesting. |
| MotherBast12-15-03, 04:34 PM | Tellish and Cat, very good stories both. While the special effects in Cat's story were great, I think Tellish told the better tale. But then, Cat had Candessa in his story, so he wins, hands down. Fluid, why stop posting the Bilo/Brackin fight on round 11? Did I win, did I loose, did a black hole open and end the arena's existance all together? |
| SnarkHunter12-15-03, 05:56 PM | I sent him a PM and he had...uh...'computer' troubles. SO I don't know when/if that'll get posted. At that point it could prolly still go either way. I did have one general question For Hanz's 6th level feat I was thinking about getting Leadership (its weapon focus right now but that's just a place holder) mostly for things like a fellow flanker. Right now I'm considering two possibilities; Smash-face the orc, 5th level barbarian. He slices he dices he rages to pieces. He's nice because he's very straightforward. He's strong and tough, but on a 25pt point buy he'll never be as strong and tough as a real arena barb. Hanz keeps him around since he can only make Hanz look better in comparison. Stewart Conners, the village apothecarian. 5th level neutral cleric of Obad-hai. I know what you're all thinking, "oh god another caster to keep track of," but at least he has the benifit of being someone no one would ever possibly play in the arena. He left the hamlet to convince Hanz to return and make peace with his family but so far has had no luck. He's persistent though and has decided that if Hanz must work out his grief in the arena then so be it. I can post rough character drafts for either but the general gist is they're here to help flank and watch my back. Thoughts? |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-15-03, 06:00 PM | @MO: I wasn't sure either if i could put them back in their vials, but i knew he had high fort saves. If i was gonna use them though, i would have used them in the first salvo of true-snipe to make sure he had to make two saves for each one. They weren't used until the very end and he did make his saves on all but one and only lost 1 pt of str and resulted in no impact on the fight at all. Honestly, i would have preferred not to use them, dunno how close the hits were, but it was your call and i'm ok with that. If i was gonna lose the money for them, they'd have been more effective in the true-snipe portion of tactics. @Cat: too funny. After reading it though, it's a solid reminder for me to never use crowd modifiers in my fights. Ack! Dangerous things. It really seemed to favor the feinter as he gets it both ways, with his +'s, and giving his opponent -'s. It's like having a free divine power cast on ya. *shudders* no thanks for me. I didn't scrutinize the fight too heavily after seeing Hanz doing 10+ dmg each time his rapier with for 2d6+1. Those are some wicked dmg rolls. Did the crowd modifiers add to dmg as well? @3 losses = bump....so does that mean Irlina gets to make an 8th lvl pc? :rofl: @Snark: since i'm the master skill calculater :p i'll give 'em a quick once over and see what might be up. *EDIT* i thought the leadership feat was for non-pc's only? **EDIT** looked over the skills...this is about all i can come up with. +13 (5/2 ftr+6rog) hide (+4dex) Should be +12, as the decimal gets rounded down. +8 (5/2ftr+1rog) Listen (-1Wis+2feat) CC for fighter making this a +4 But that's after his levelling, so not sure what skills Spike was talking about or how anything affected the combat. Tellish |
| fluiddragon12-15-03, 06:25 PM | Bilo vs Brackin is up. Sorry for the delay. I was just copying and pasting tactics and sheets and my wife blew a fuse with the hair drier. :censored: :censored: :censored: Lost everything but my first save, and glad I did that. I didn't have the energy to try and retype the story, so it is a round by round. Sorry for the bland fight :(. |
| Caterane12-15-03, 06:48 PM | Tellish you got Cat's throne as arena bard... For maybe two days. Then he got it back I fear. Hrmpf. Seems like the arena throne is a wobbly one, eh? Thought I had it fortified for the next couple of years at least, you know, with moats and such. If someone wants to drag my souvereign-glued buttock down there he should make a challenge. Hough. @CAT - I would really like your creative touch in this effort, and even if the idea of you modding my next fight is turned down, would you be willing to corrospond through e-mail with me and add some flavor to my upcoming character developement? Edit - Great fight, Cat! Thanks LL. As for moderating your fight: I promised fluiddragon to mod Gage this week and I only have time for one moderation (better a good one than two mediocre ones). Same goes with character development where I`m currently employed at Fluiddragon Corporation on the Gage project (+Ebelin and Harvey, of course) but I`ll see what I can do. You have my mail address. @Cat: too funny. After reading it though, it's a solid reminder for me to never use crowd modifiers in my fights. Ack! Dangerous things. It really seemed to favor the feinter as he gets it both ways, with his +'s, and giving his opponent -'s. Not both ways, just worsening the others attitude. Spike could`ve done much to impress the crowd with his tripping but unfortunately he lost his weapon. And since there aren`t any other feinters than Hanz out there I don`t think the feat is all too popular. And we can always incorporate spellcasting crowd pleasers. Hanz doing 10+ dmg each time his rapier with for 2d6+1. Those are some wicked dmg rolls. Did the crowd modifiers add to dmg as well? +1 Rapier (1d6+1) and sneak attack. But I forgot to apply the crowd mods to Hanz (+2) and Spike`s (-2) damage. :rolleyes: @3 losses = bump....so does that mean Irlina gets to make an 8th lvl pc? Irlina lives about 50 km from here - not far enough if I continue to incorporate Irlina that way :angel: Hanz' Leadership: two possibilities: Smash-face the orc or Stewart Conners. Thoughts? Ask Toad. He might mutiny :D Cat: mod Gage Though I promised to mod Gage I see a problem here. At level 8 there are Ebelin, the Harvester (both mine), Gage and either Bilo or Brackin. Since Ebelin and Harvester can not fight each other one has to fight Gage, which means I cannot mod him. So, Fluid, if you don`t have a better idea I would suggest we delay it until you make your challenge vs the Elder. |
| fluiddragon12-15-03, 07:04 PM | Though I promised to mod Gage I see a problem here. At level 8 there are Ebelin, the Harvester (both mine), Gage and either Bilo or Brackin. Since Ebelin and Harvester can not fight each other one has to fight Gage, which means I cannot mod him. So, Fluid, if you don`t have a better idea I would suggest we delay it until you make your challenge vs the Elder. I noticed this too. So I'll have Gage sit out this week. @ Mo: Fluiddragon and Dragon Rain are both ready for the next round. Please delete Xaverr from the waiting list he went home. I'm not going to use him again |
| SnarkHunter12-15-03, 07:42 PM | @Tellish, thanks for the heads up, yeah 1 went ftr 2 first then 1 rogue, 1 wiz etc... Changed skills as per your recomendations. As for the Leadership: Well it wasn't specified what method we would be using in the vote and to be honest I wasn't sure how well only non-PC cohorts would work. What would happen when we gained a level? Would a new cohort have been necessary or would we add a HD. HOw would you calculate ECL for non-base races and so forth. Basicly I was worried we would be making leadership to much like a lesser version of an animal companion. Basicly I want to try out the core version of leadership and we can see if its unbalancing. I think without any money and only a 25 pointbuy for stats, leadership will be powerful but not gamebreaking. Of course I'm biased here :D, but starting (possibly) high and working low seems a little less punishing then the other way around anyway ;). My big question right now is; I'm leaning towards the cleric, but do you think he would be too annoying to run in addition to Hanz? @Cat: I didn't want to mention this but it looked like you weren't applying str penalties to his roles either :rolleyes:. Also I guess Bilo's caught between a rock and hard place for his next fight again...well I guess we'll see what comes of it. @Fluid: Yeah the fight turned out about as well as I could of hoped. Mmm anyway, I totatly misunderstood your first response. When you said your wife had blown a fuse I assumed she had gotten really really angry about you playing D&D for 3 hours on the computer, flipped out and deleted the fight. I was all like, "woah. He's got problems bigger then this fight, I 'll just cool off then." Glad to see this was not the case :D. |
| fluiddragon12-15-03, 07:54 PM | @Fluid: Yeah the fight turned out about as well as I could of hoped. Mmm anyway, I totatly misunderstood your first response. When you said your wife had blown a fuse I assumed she had gotten really really angry about you playing D&D for 3 hours on the computer, flipped out and deleted the fight. I was all like, "woah. He's got problems bigger then this fight, I 'll just cool off then." Glad to see this was not the case . Nope it was a literal fuse damn hair drier. I keep telling her to turn everything else off first but does she listen,,, NOOOOOOOO :D. Oh well. |
| Caterane12-15-03, 08:04 PM | @Snark: K, substracted the enfeeblement and added rage. I haven`t added and substracted the crowd damage mods though for this would change the fight (in your favor of course) and I don`t want to rewrite the story now. You won anyway. |
| Draloth12-15-03, 08:21 PM | A bit after the fact, but hey-schedules arnt very friendly. @Jindl/Irlina here's a quote from the SRD that appears to support Jindl's theory: Determine Effect: A spell successfully activated from a scroll works exactly like a spell prepared and cast the normal way. Assume the scroll spell’s caster level is always the minimum level required to cast the spell for the character who scribed the scroll (usually twice the spell’s level, minus 1), unless the caster specifically desires otherwise. The writing for an activated spell disappears from the scroll. That final sentence there appears to say that only if a scroll is activated correctly does the writing vanish, or if you fail the wisdom check. ~Draloth |
| MadCowTemplate12-15-03, 08:41 PM | Edit.... |
| LLMadCow12-15-03, 08:46 PM | :bounce: |
| Sir Cridion12-15-03, 10:01 PM | A few things: ARGH! I ran out of arrows! That'll teach me... Anyways, too bad the power went out Moh, the fight was well written; I want to find out what happens next in the Assassin storyline (stay tuned next week...) Second, since my last post was one of the last on the page, I was going to ask again, how would the mods feel about a mounted archer? I think it'd be a cool and viable build, but I understand it could be a real pain in the rear to run. Finally, about the Tellish's "use of the craft skill" idea, or any "refund idea" for that matter, I think it could be implemented, with the exception that the amount of gold made cannot exceed that which you should have for that level anyways. I still favour the 3 consecutive losses idea though. Btw, I found out that I was improperly calculating my gold. I fixed it now, but I'm glad I hadn't gone over the limit... Thanks |
| fluiddragon12-15-03, 10:07 PM | Now that the dust has settled from the fights last week. And we voted yes for the error points, I would like to have an error point awarded to Dragonrain for his fight with Tomar. My wand of entagle was not allowed to be used and this was the cornerstone of my tactics, and I was not given the chance to revise my tactics or defend them. Thomar also got to make an extra attack that hit that he should not have gotten. Both mistakes could have made a very large impact in the outcome. The entagle issue is obvious. The extra attack that Tomar got could also have changed the course. I am a much better grappler, and with stunning fist and the elimination of Tomars main attack mode would have turned the tide had I not been hit again. All I needed was a good attack roll, which had his hit not connected I would of had 2 more chances to hit (flurry). Mag suggested I get an error point. Not sure if it was posted or a pm, but I would like it, now that we voted on it. (He nerf's my tactic then takes it for his archer :D :heehee: ) -fd edit: Polls, don't forget to vote there is #14 and #15 that not everybody has voted for yet. edit: Mounted Archer, some builds are a pain to run some are easier. At high levels they all are! Anyway make your build as long as it is within the core rules, then build away. It can't be any worse than a hider. Don't not build something because it might be a pain to run. Don't let that stop you. |
| cellardweller12-15-03, 10:14 PM | sneaking, rapidly changing modifiers and "executive decisions" - I just know that I'm gonna get into trouble for this fight (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2095750#post2095750) :bigeyes: |
| fluiddragon12-15-03, 10:26 PM | On round 10 Cadion moves then casts enlarge person, Enlarge person is 1 round so you can't move and enlarge at the same time. Not that it changed the out come. Sleep is also a 1 round spell. So neither can be readied. -fd |
| sshuit12-15-03, 10:57 PM | lol. First Voliana gets Zorandered by Nevrlokagyft, and then Sir Zippy is denied his rightful victory by an obviously racist arena Judge :( I'm thinking about retiring Voliana and having Jindl use his druidic powers to merge Sir Roger and Sir Zippy into a centauresque creature known as "Sir Zipper" *sigh* sshuit |
| SnarkHunter12-15-03, 11:52 PM | Do not dispair sir paladin! IF you and any other interested parties would only look here at my most recent post in the RP thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2096345#post2096345), you will find something Mag an dI have discusse dpreviously. To ward off apathy for 9th level character's a special expedition fight, pitting all the arena's paladins vs. the two highest level evil characters :). Seems fair to us :devil:, Anywho we actually came up with this plan when the previous paladins were all lower levels but it is intriguing non-the-less! My thought was that this would be a fight for a quantity of gold only and no level. This might also occure outside the strictures of normal fights so all unfrozen fighters would engage normaly. Modding this would be especially tricky which is why I was wondering if mayhaps, Jindle and cat coudl team mod it? Basicly, each takes a teams turn, run's that turn and sends the result to the other. Reading this over, it is madness! I have two essays to write! Off I go! |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-15-03, 11:56 PM | > 2. can you jump as part of your charge? Meaning if a flying > opponent is 5' out of your reach, can you jump the last 5' to hit > your opponent? Unclear. I think you can. Jump is done as part of movement. Charge requires: * you move before your attack, not after * max movement is double your speed * move at least 10' * you must move directly toward your target * clear path and nothing can hinder movement * you must move to the closest space from which you can attack * you must have line of sight to the target at the start of your turn [note that 3.5 rules no longer say "straight line"] Jump rules: * a running start requires 20' of straight line movement before jumping * a running start is not required, but the DC is doubled without one * the jump is part of the movement * in a long jump, you reach a height of 1/4 the horizontal distance at midpoint * if you run out of movement mid-jump, your next action (same round or next) must be a move to complete the jump. In the example, the charge involves normal movement, which can be in a straight line so a running start for a jump is possible. The attack is not a separate action, so the round could end with the attack, the jump concluding on the next turn (Spring Attack could allow it on the same turn). "Directly toward" does not have a D&D definition, though straightness is usually implied by the term; D&D grid movement requires a stepped path in many examples of "straight" movement, and some rules ignore the vertical aspect of locations, if they aren't to large. In this diagram: +-+-+-+-+-+ | | |*|*|Z| +-+-+-+-+-+ |*|*|b|Y|*| +-+-+-+-+-+ |X|a|*| |d| +-+-+-+-+-+ on a horizontal grid, moving from X through and B to Y in order to attack Z, with the * squares unobstructed, would be considered direct movement. If the grid were vertical. with the character jumping from a through b to Y (to eventually land at d), it would a jump (no running start), requiring a move to next turn (unless Spring Attack allowed it the same turn). I think Jump is allowed during a charge. From: "bokelightbringer" <brad@f...> Date: Fri Dec 12, 2003 1:26 pm Subject: Re: A series of questions/clarifications > A charge must be in a straight line. Charging & then jumping up is a change in direction. So if you want to jump charge you need to jump the entire distance. > > Yours for deeper dungeons > > > David Argall I agree if any X or Y axis change was made with the jump (if you were running straight and tried to jump to the side, no way). I also am inclined agree in the case of a "high jump"....a jump where you're trying to reach maximum height without just "naturally" rising to that height in the course of a straight long-jump. However a long-jump includes a 20' run-up distance. Are you saying that only standing long-jumps can be used in a charge? Or that Kruskin running, jumping the pit and running all in a straight line can't charge an opponent at the end of the run? It is certainly a way to rule, and I wouldn't argue it if that was how you called it, but be aware that the jumping rules in 3.5 are very different from 3.0 and jump is really something you do as part of movement, it isn't considered separate movement mode. ======================= (from the jump description) Special: Effects that increase your movement also increase your jumping distance, since your check is modified by your speed. If you have the Run feat, you get a +4 bonus on Jump checks for any jumps made after a running start. =================== Given that the "Run" feat adds to your jump skill when moving, there is some implied assumptions about being able to "run" and "jump" in the same action...thus no change of direction. ============ From the SRD...note that ALL jump checks get bonuses or penalties for movement speed, even standing and high jumps. Odd, but true. I guess if you have strong legs for running you're assumed to jump well. The Run feat is an explicit exception, its bonuses only apply if you get a running start. ============ Check: The DC and the distance you can cover vary according to the type of jump you are attempting (see below). Your Jump check is modified by your speed. If your speed is 30 feet then no modifier based on speed applies to the check. If your speed is less than 30 feet, you take a –6 penalty for every 10 feet of speed less than 30 feet. If your speed is greater than 30 feet, you gain a +4 bonus for every 10 feet beyond 30 feet. All Jump DCs given here assume that you get a running start, which requires that you move at least 20 feet in a straight line before attempting the jump. If you do not get a running start, the DC for the jump is doubled. Distance moved by jumping is counted against your normal maximum movement in a round. If you have ranks in Jump and you succeed on a Jump check, you land on your feet (when appropriate). If you attempt a Jump check untrained, you land prone unless you beat the DC by 5 or more. ====================== Note the distance moved by jumping clause. Jumping is not a move action it isn't a standard action, it's just something you do when you move, like changing direction. However IS it changing direction? That's the hard part. ====================== Long Jump: A long jump is a horizontal jump, made across a gap like a chasm or stream. At the midpoint of the jump, you attain a vertical height equal to one-quarter of the horizontal distance. The DC for the jump is equal to the distance jumped (in feet). High Jump: A high jump is a vertical leap made to reach a ledge high above or to grasp something overhead. The DC is equal to 4 times the distance to be cleared....As with a long jump, the DC is doubled if you do not get a running start of at least 20 feet. ==== Somehow horizontal speed makes you go higher in D&D physics :) In the real world a running high jump does work better than a standing high jump, you do something to transfer the momentum upward but I'm not clear on just what it is, not being an athelete. ===== Hop Up: You can jump up onto an object as tall as your waist, such as a table or small boulder, with a DC 10 Jump check. Doing so counts as 10 feet of movement, so if your speed is 30 feet, you could move 20 feet, then hop up onto a counter. You do not need to get a running start to hop up, so the DC is not doubled if you do not get a running start. ==== Hop-Up would cause a charge or run to fail because your movement slows down. It's this that makes me inclined to believe that a more strenuous "high jump" form of "hop-up" would cause a change of direction...it slows down your forward speed. ===== The main thing is that a long-jump doesn't slow you down (at least if you have ranks in jump and make the jump check, or if you beat the jump check by 5 if you don't have ranks). Any movement forward in the jump is counted 1 for 1 vs movement you would have done on the ground. Thus it is similar to doing an accellerated balance down a slippery slope...you can charge in those circumstances, if you have the skill, because forward movement isn't impaired, even if the slope changes mid-charge. ==== (from the Balance rules) (table has balance checks of 10 for uneven flagstone, hewn stone flore and sloped or angled floor ONLY FOR RUNNING OR CHARGING) Accelerated Movement: You can try to walk across a precarious surface more quickly than normal. If you accept a –5 penalty, you can move your full speed as a move action. (Moving twice your speed in a round requires two Balance checks, one for each move action used.) You may also accept this penalty in order to charge across a precarious surface; charging requires one Balance check for each multiple of your speed (or fraction thereof ) that you charge. ================================ Now a bit from the Charge rules (all emphasis mine) =============================== Movement During a Charge: You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. You must have a CLEAR PATH toward the opponent, and nothing can HINDER YOUR MOVEMENT (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). Here's what it means to have a clear path. First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. (If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can't charge.) Second, if any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, SLOWS MOVEMENT, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge. (Helpless creatures don't stop a charge.) If you don't have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can't charge that opponent. You can't take a 5-foot step in the same round as a charge. If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn. ============================== I've added emphasis to the key points above. If a square is physically blocked on the "clear path" by a "can't move through it" obstacle or any kind of creature, you can't charge. Anything that is not a total barrier to movement is checked to see if it SLOWS movement. Anything you "balance" through doesn't slow movement. A "long-jump" doesn't slow movement. A long-jump whose straight line path to the target square goes OVER a terrain obstacle that slows movement for lesser mortals also does't violate any of these rules A "long-jump" that can completely clear an obstacle that blocks movement or a creature PROBABLY doesn't stop it (because for YOU, your fastest path to the target square doesn't include the critter or the obstacle. Clearing a terrain blocking obstacle needs a minimum 25 jump check (5'x4 to clear the front and back edge, +5' to sail over it). With creatures I would break it down as follows: Friendly small: minimum 9 (3' high) Unfriendly small: mnimum 12 (4' reach) Frindly medium: minimum 24 (6' high) Unfriendly medium: minimum 32 (8' reach) Critters shaped strangely might affect this...a medium sized friendly dog might need only a 9 on the check because it is only 3' high (I can leap over Moose, my 110 lb medium sized dog, as a mere mortal), but an unfreindly one might rear up an need you do to the full 8' reach roll. Also you have to have enough distance before and after the obstacle so that you clear it at the apex of the jump (this distance on lower objects is based on what it would take to just barely clear it...eg, a 5' cube obstacle needs a 25 check, you need 10' clear on either side of it. However the strict letter of the rules would say that this would only work for hitting a flying opponent above the obstacle (where the straight line does not intersect the obstacle) rather than someone behind it. Many GM's however would just use the "for you it is just difficult terrain" approach and let you try to make the jump check. A "high-jump" does slow movement..."high-jump" being defined as any obstacle where you do NOT have the clear space on either side to clear it as part of a normal long-jump. Note that there is nothing about direction changes in any of the rules. The straight line path must be clear of creatures, and movement must not be slowed. All of this means that there are grades of what is allowed, and where the GM draws the line depends mostly on how he interprets the "running jump" rules and the charge rules. Here's the summary 1. Any STANDING jump whose straight line path to target isn't blocked by a critter or full terrain obstacle. Nobody can argue with this. 2. Any run action that contains a forward jump that isn't blocked by a critter and all obstacles are cleared with sufficient space on either side to make clearing the obstacle part of a normal long- jump. Any terrain like a pit or ice or water which does not rise above the plane of the charge is clearly allowed, as the straight line path contains no obstacles and movement is not impeded. #2 is always allowed by strict reading of the rules on a groundbound target, but a GM may have to be shown the relevant Jump and Charge text. It should be allowed IMHO on a flying target if the jump is timed right, as the 20' "run up" step is part of the jump mechanics and has no impact on "slowing movement"..it is more like a "direction change" caused by charging down a slope that stops being a slope...the latter case is a balance check, the former is a jump check. 3. Any run action where the jumper can clear a terrain obstacle or creature with sufficient space on either side to have movement not slowed by a long jump. #3 has the difficulty that the clear path may not exist, especially on groundbound targets. Here you may wish to apply a little common sense. I can charge across a field even if there is a wren standing in my path, because to me, a wren isn't an obstacle. A character that leaps 6, 7, 8 feet in the air routinely isn't going to see a Kobold as an obstacle, assuming he can time the jump correctly. A puppy dog can't block a dragon's charge either, regardless of what the rules say. Was I in this situation as a player I'd ask, but calmly accept a negative ruling. As a GM, I'd allow it but be very picky indeed about where the jump starts and ends, and if the player botches it, his charge may end on the pike of the thing he was trying to leap. This actually came up once for me (jumping over a friendly animal companion wolf in a game I was in)...but it was a "standing" jump charge so there wasn't as much ambiguity. I had to make a jump check of 24 at level 2 to clear the dog (3'x4 for heightx2 for standing jump). Note that you will almost always take an AOO in this situation unless the thing you are jumping is friendly. Note that a jumping charge (or "move and attack" in the case of the high jump) may well leave you in the air between phases and your next turn you will be forced to do a move action finishing the jump. (if you actually HIT the target, you may just stop moving and fall, or if you grapple it you both might fall) 4. Any kind of high jump that slows movement is clearly not allowed. 5. Any kind of jump that takes you off the line of direction (ie you jump in a different direction from your forward run) isn't allowed with a charge or run, because it is a direction change. Note however that the Fleet of Foot feat WOULD allow #5 and might allow #4 (if #4's "charge" ended on a flying target). I welcome comment to this. I believe I'm reading the rules correctly here, but I might be unaware of something. That should take care of jumping as part of a charge. It seems like a really good argument made as to why you CAN jump and charge. You don't use a move action of your own to move while mounted, so normal limitations on standard actions being before or after movement don't apply. You can even take full round actions while the mount moves ("you can make a full attack with a ranged weapon while your mount is moving" PHB page 157). PHB page 157, Combat while Mounted: "If your mount moves more than 5', you can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can't make a full round attack." THis does not say that you attack before or after the mount's movement, but when "the mount gets to your enemy". With respect to charges, it says "If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance (see Charge page 154)." This does not say that you can only attack at the end of the mount's charge, but you only get the charge bonus to damage IF you attack at the end of the charge. PHB page 155, Lances and Charge Attacks: "A lance deals double damage if employed by a mounted character during a charge". This seems to say that it applies to ANY attack with the lance made by the rider while the mount is charging, even if it is made before the end of the mount's charge, or if the rider throws the lance (-4 to hit, must be thrown with one hand). The 3.5 rules must be read carefully, as they often don't say or imply the same thing as 3.0 rules. If there is a general rule ("You can take a move action before or after a standard action on your turn in a round."), and a specific rule (you don't use a move action to move while mounted, and you can melee attack only when your mount has gotten to your enemy), the specific rule can alter the general rule, or can fall outside the conditions for the general rule. Attacking while mounted does not count your mount's movement as you using a move action, so does not limit when in the movement you can make an attack; it only specifically gives it's own restrictions on full-attack actions. _______________________________________ I interpret "full speed" as run (normally 4x normal speed). They would say "normal speed" or just "speed" if they meant the base move. There would be no need for the sentence if they meant normal speed, as that never imposes an attack penalty, whereas riding faster than normal speed (a double move or running), does impose a penalty on ranged attacks (the only attack penalty specified do to the mount's speed, if you assume that the penalty for a charge is associated with the specific action, as it is for someone on foot). > I agree with your previous post Tom, but some people are just > insistant. Other than quoting 90% of the mounted combat section > that would imply i can, he's completely insistant that that > particular line means you cannot. > > Ray Too many people fixate on one line of a rule out of context, without comparing it to the other text which often clarifies meaning. The use of "even" should be taken to imply that it is different from what happens with something similar in the rules such as ranged attacks while mounted and moving faster than normal. The use of the word "full" should also be significant, which it would not be with the interpretation of "normal". Tom Bollis > > > the section called mounted combat has a nice > little 4 paragraph compalation explaining what actions can be > thaken, and when, when your mount moves. Anttacking at the end of a > double move isen't in there, and it also implies twice that you > can't attack if your mount moves more than its full speed, once when > it says you may make a singel attack at no penalty if your mount > moves up to its full speed. This might imply there was a penalty if the horse somehow moved at move than its full speed, or a penalty if you tried to make more than one attack, but trying for an implication that you can't attack at all if the horse is too fast is just reaching. By contrast, we have "If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack." If there were easy cases where you could not take any due to mount movement, that should read "..can make no more than a single melee...". So the sentence seems to say what it says. If mount moves 10+, you get one attack. _______________- not need to use a move action to command your mount to attack; it may just be a DC 10 Ride check to "Fight with warhorse" or a "Control Mount in Battle" check (move action and DC 20 for untrained mount, no action and no roll for a war-trained mount). This general topic was beaten to a bloody pulp by the Monkeys a while ago. __________________ I believe he Penn is thinking that the Ride skill gives the equivalent of soft cover: "Creatures, even your enemies, can provide you with cover against ranged attacks, giving you a +4 bonus to AC. However, such soft cover provides no bonus on Reflex saves, nor does soft cover allow you to make a Hide check", though even that is modified by "When making a melee attack against an adjacent target, your target has cover if any line of effect from your square to the target's square goes through a wall (including a low wall). When making a melee attack against a target that isn't adjacent to you (such as with a reach weapon), use the rules for determining cover from ranged attacks". I would take the Ride cover to mean that you are considered in a mount square on the opposite side from any attacker, not in all mount squares, and that it provides soft cover (it being a creature) that works against ranged attacks and against melee attacks with weapons that can reach across the mount to a square on its far side (you would not be threatened by a melee weapon that did not reach far enough). A melee attack from an adjacent square normally is not blocked at all by soft cover (i.e., if you are in the same square as the covering creature or if the attacker is(), but the wording of the Ride skill would seem to provide an exception if the attacker is adjacent to a Medium mount with a Small rider - the rider WOULD get (soft) cover from the adjacent attacker if he made his cover Ride check. Exceptions always override general rules. Tom Bollis _______________________ That takes care of moving your mount and attacking. Actually by litteral definition of what MB is trying to argue AGAINST moving and attacking can similarly be used to be interpreted that you can actually RUN your mount and still attack WITHOUT penalty. The "EVEN THOUGH" statement is not a denial, as opinionated, but an inclusion. This topic was beaten half to death by the Rules Monkeys awhile back. It was quite the unanimous opinion that after the arguments you could actually even RUN your mount and attack in melee without penalty to said attack. I rest my case. I always have been and always will be convinced you can double move and attack. A riders actions are seperate from the mounts. That means i can draw a scroll and cast it while my mount moves, i can fast dismount, retreive an object and fast mount again etc... Tellish (I'm done) |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-16-03, 12:09 AM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Tellish you got Cat's throne as arena bard... For maybe two days. Then he got it back I fear. *Edit* ToK effectively wrote the best story, even though Cat wrote probably the most entertaining one. What two different figures could you be... The storyteller and the bard? Not different enough... Mhh.. :( I'll just have to try again next week. Tellish **EDIT** Originally posted by tate Here is my first character, let me know if I messed somehthing up. Contact me via email if need be. . LOKI4798@aol.com. I assume now I am on the list to fight? Not quite actually. What you need to do now is post here and let MO know you're ready. #1. Just a note for your character. You don't have Human listed as your race, but you obiously are as you have the human bonus feat and made use of the bonus skills. Maybe just include that under your name or beside your class or something. #2. The cost of CL 5 MM scrolls is only 125gp, not 150. Since you aren't doing the crafting, and someone else is sucking up the xp hit, you don't pay for their loss. So that should free up another 50gp for ya. |
| Market_Share12-16-03, 04:13 AM | Hey, just read fight. from Spike's Tactics If he greases my weapon (i think my dwarven +2 save vs spells and effects kicks in on this), and i drop it, i can still base him on a spur and will do my trip unarmed, as it doesn't really matter. My guisarme doesn't give me any bonuses so trip and kick and draw my bow. Just wondering why i never tried a trip attempt unarmed? Maybe cuz i was supposed to lose for the sake of the crowds enjoyment i guess. LOL Boy, did ever plan that wrong either way, hunh? WOW. I got my butt handed to me on that one. I should have realized melee was gonna kill me and made some contingency to heal. I guess in my stubbord dwarven ways i thought i'd be tripping him unarmed and it wouldn't matter much as he'd never get any real opportunity to attack. Oh well...serves me right for agreeing to this experiment. LOL Good win Hanz, well played. SPIKE |
| KerlanRayne12-16-03, 04:29 AM | I was thinking about creating a Ranger but I was wondering about scrolls. Can't use spellcraft to read it and can't cast read magic yet, or can he? Could I buy a wand of read magic for 375gp and use it on scrolls? KerlanRayne |
| Caterane12-16-03, 04:43 AM | @Market: The crowd didn`t make that much of a difference; I even forgot to add +2 to Hanz damage and substract -2 from your damage; I didn`t substract the Ray of enfeeblement, too. Heck, never made that much errors in one fight. Second thing: Unarmed trip is in for a AoO so Hanz had an easy time hitting your really lousy Ac. The only thing you would`ve accomplished by that would`ve been dying all the faster. Edit: Oops, it isn`t. Next: Hanz had an Ac of 32 if necessary. Last: Your tactic description was really confusing. I spent nearly two hours just to rearrange it into a halfway satisfying form. I couldn`t figure out where the tactic applies to Hanz flying and where it ended, Heat metal?, Hold person when? Flying only or on ground. If I would`ve skipped the "WIN INI" part (you lost ini) then I would`ve even missed some vital parts of your tactic. Anyway, I thank you for your bold step in playing guinea pig; won`t forget that. Cat |
| Moherajikuyx12-16-03, 05:01 AM | Originally posted by SnarkHunter As for the Leadership: [..] I wasn't sure how well only non-PC cohorts would work. The problem is the moderators time here, not the rules. I think that many moderators expressed the opinion that having to mod a 2 vs 2 fight would be a lot more difficult and time consuming than 1+mount/companion/monster cohort vs =. And I agree fully. So for now don't add levels, we'll discuss that after some fights with cohorts. Nice idea the good guys vs. evil guys. But when are we going to get on with lvl 9? I thought 4 guys are enough. Sir Cridion: thanks, and you didn't see my post: do the mounted archer and kill those mages! Don't worry about the moderators effort: a mounted archer requires way less time than a flying mage. Originally posted by fluiddragon I would like to have an error point awarded to Dragonrain for his fight with Tomar Isn't the 3-losses-bump enough? (Just a question) Updating roster... |
| Alathar Vierce12-16-03, 05:02 AM | hmm Thought better discretion would least mean common sense in retreating and healing using superior movement, but I guess my lacking in hour+ worth of typing strategy equals a redone character :( |
| Market_Share12-16-03, 05:06 AM | Yes yes yes yes....absolutely. I got my buttocks handed to me. No doubts there. I understand the errors. hahaha. I wasn't saying that as a complaint...goodness far from it. HAhahahaha It's just with improved tirp, i don't provoke, even when attempting to trip disarmed. I had horrible tactics for that fight. I mean, what was i thinking? Meleeing with a feinter? Gawd, i deserved to get slapped around like that. HAhahah... Never has an gladiator been shown up the way i was. That was a truely unique experience that i'd care not to repeat. I'll have to pay more attention to my tactics and my opponents capabilities next time. I think my noobie-ness should through on that fight. I was thinking of making a second character and maybe trying my hand at moderation. I'm having a bit of fun reading all this stuff and i know i lurk more than i post, but just wondering what the timeline is for new ppl to moderate? I wanted to make a loremaster/archmage, but it looks like that spot is already being filled. Would it be too much of a copy-cat to make a necromancer with the same aspirations? Human of course. SPIKE |
| Caterane12-16-03, 05:16 AM | @Spike: One thing I`ll grant you: your posts - filled with pure dwarfishness - always make me laugh out loud; you`re really a funny guy, right behind Snark who`s one of the funniest persons around. As for the necromancer: actually I wanted to post one as soon as Ebelin won and rests at lvl 9 but I´m waiting for that for 3 weeks now *hrmpf*. My substitute character is a human necromancer/loremaster; I even introduced him in 2 fights and Tellish I think incorporated him too. Professor Vandaeris Dre`Dandrahl`s the name (a lecturer at Silverymoon College) and he`s my RL campaign character. |
| Moherajikuyx12-16-03, 05:18 AM | Tellish, great job with the mounted combat and the charge+jump essays. I feel that another guideline for the two arguments - that give usually many problems to the mods - has to be done, with a link with your essay to provide the reasons of the guidelines: to provide a quick reference. Charge + Jump/balance - you may do horizontal jumps while jumping, because an horizontal jump is not a change of direction. - you have to jump high enough as to be out of AoO if jumping a foe - you have to jump over the obstacle else. - you have to pass a balance check to charge through difficult terrain that hinders movement: that way, your movement isn't hindered Am I forgetting anything? If you write the guidelines (as I'd prefer, especially for mounted combat) add a link to your previous essay. |
| Moherajikuyx12-16-03, 06:51 AM | barrel_master, are you around? Being today tuesday, I'm giving you a - credit for the lack of a fight... Am I missing anything? |
| Caterane12-16-03, 06:53 AM | Paladin Expedition @Snark: Hey Ebelin is lawful good in the noblest sense and member of the Celestial forces (Harmoneous Jade recruited him); may he join, too? We can add Kelek to the evil group |
| Caterane12-16-03, 07:17 AM | @Mo: Iron vs Ebelin is the longest fight and far more entertaining than the current one. Also Bilo won vs Brackin Edit: Changed my sig to clear some things up :D |
| Irlina12-16-03, 07:54 AM | @Jindl Thanks for the wand-info. Try of definition for a bard: Someone who thinks too loudly, speaks too much or simply tries to catch the audience by whatever means neccessary ;) Ever heard a cat meowing in the evening? Don't make them sing even more!!! And since I don't like spam-only posts :) I am still wondering what's now with scrolls. I think quite a number of people here use scrolls of higher levels and it can always happen that someone fails the activation roll. Since scrolls of higher level are expensive it could become important again in fights to come. I have read all the posts here till now about it and reread the rules about it (dmg). The rules are not clear. They can be interpreted in 3 ways! a) (Jindl) both successful using of a scroll or failed level check and failed Wisdom check uses them and counts as activation. You keep the scroll in case you make the wisdom check. b) only successful usage counts as activation and uses them up. If you try and fail both level and Wisdom check you've got a problem up to the gm but still keep the scroll. If you fail level check and make the Wisdom check you keep the scroll and only lost a round. c) (me) activation of scroll is made the moment you try to use it. Whether you succeed in using it the proper way, failing the level check or failing the wisdom check is not important, the scroll is used always. It is risky using higher level scrolls. I would like to see some people read the rules about it again on their own and post their understanding of it. |
| Market_Share12-16-03, 07:59 AM | Spikes new walking dead man! Whao...Jim. Look what the cat just dragged in. Actually Tom, i think the cat kicked the living crud out of it first. Hahah Haha, agreed Jim, agreed. He looks in worse shape than that Spike dude got laughed at in front of a record selling crowd in the arena. Well, Tom, i didn't think anything could look worse than that, but i'm going to agree with you here and say this Pale-Rider is definately gonna kick the bucket on his first match. Move over IRLINA/RITO, here comes the new arena's top loser. HAhahaha HAhahaah Dunno how solid the build is. I tried making it unique. I didn't go with the aging catergories. Again, i did some homework on spellcasters and went with a mix (hybrid) of sorts. I took Gage's spectral hand idea, Elder's path toward Archmage, generally decent save DC's for his spells, and necromantic focus for some fun :) I'll see how it works out. But by all means any suggestions that experienced moderators/gladiators want to make to help improve the build, i'm all ears. SPIKE |
| Caterane12-16-03, 08:05 AM | @Mo: I moved Ebelin to a new location (next to the Harvester and my upcoming character for easier access) Here`s the link: Go to House Barnahdy (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1934353#post1934353) |
| Moherajikuyx12-16-03, 08:06 AM | ultra-:rofl:!!!! I guess that makes it... The arena bard is decided. Now we need another role, that is already filled by Tellish... But I don't know a proper one. *Edit* OK Cat. People, there's a new bard in the arena... A strange one! Where? Wait one week or three ;) and you'll see! |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-16-03, 08:06 AM | Originally posted by Caterane @Snark: Hey Ebelin is lawful good in the noblest sense and member of the Celestial forces (Harmoneous Jade recruited him); may he join, too? We can add Kelek to the evil group I can handle that. But is he high enough lvl to compete? Kelek is only 7th. Plus what's to stop me from stabbing my arch-nemesis Bilo in the back? Ur...um...Ok, i'll join the team. :D LOL. Maybe after Bilo, evil and company have the goody-goodies on the brink of death, i'll just turn on them, and take all the rewards for myself? ur...um...ok I'll join the team. :D Tellish |
| Caterane12-16-03, 08:18 AM | @Tellsih: No, Kelek is not high enough but I don`t care about that :D @Fluid: GAGE!! COME BACK OR ONE OF MY CHARS HAS TO SKIP A WEEK!!! |
| LLMadCow12-16-03, 08:23 AM | Quote by Caterane Though I promised to mod Gage I see a problem here. At level 8 there are Ebelin, the Harvester (both mine), Gage and either Bilo or Brackin. Since Ebelin and Harvester can not fight each other one has to fight Gage, which means I cannot mod him. So, Fluid, if you don`t have a better idea I would suggest we delay it until you make your challenge vs the Elder. Does this mean you could run the Cliodhna fight this week? :bounce: |
| Caterane12-16-03, 08:38 AM | @LL: Ok. Just tell Mo. As for your background story I`ll try to incorporate something into the fight. You can either give me complete leeway or mail me some ideas you want to see on Chlio. @Mo: I have another idea for a good position: The Arena Rules Lawyer which goes to Jindly of course. Oh and I`m working on my new character. So if Fluid doesn`t show up and Gage sits out I bump Ebelin to level 9 and let my new character fight. @Irlina: ...which gives you a chance to "let your dogs loose" as you once anounced. :D This is your only chance for if I win and advance to level 3 - you know ...out of your reach :invasion: |
| fluiddragon12-16-03, 08:38 AM | Originally posted by Caterane @Tellsih: No, Kelek is not high enough but I don`t care about that :D @Fluid: GAGE!! COME BACK OR ONE OF MY CHARS HAS TO SKIP A WEEK!!! Didn't Eblin get 3 losses in a row? (sorry if I'm mistaken) If he did couldn't you level up? If this won't work PM me and I'll try to finish leveling him so you don't have to sit out. This kills our plans of you running his next fight though :weep: I don't really have time this week to run 2 fights and I wanted to have Fluiddragon fight this week and think over my spell choices for Gage. I am still undecided and the choice of my 4th level spell will make a big impact on my tactics for my 8th level fight There are 3 spells I'm really looking at right now. So Gage waiting this week was in my plan, but I wouldn't want to force you to wait. If you did have 3 losses with Eblin and take the level I will sit out, so I can think over my choices and there will be no odd characters at that level. @ Mo: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by fluiddragon I would like to have an error point awarded to Dragonrain for his fight with Tomar -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Isn't the 3-losses-bump enough? (Just a question) 1. The 3 losses rule is for consecutive losses at the same level, and the error point rule is not dependant upon the losses being consecutive. 2. The error point rule enables a loss to be removed from your record. And reflects the condition that a moderator was the cause of a loss. The 3 consecutive losses rule is to help characters with unlucky rolls, or week levels in thier build, and keep a broke character in the game. The error point was to redress fights lost soley because of errors. 3. The error point rule was voted on and the vote was yes. The 3 losses rule poll is still open though it is garnering quite a bit of support. So I would be eligible for an error point. Mag suggested to me that I be awarded the error point, so I don't think the case needs to go through the review process in this case. Mag said he goofed up, and it did have an impact on the fight. No hard feelings or anything, but I want the error point incase I have to use it in the future. edit: @ Cat, seems we were typing at the same time. Looks like you'll bump Eblin with the 3 losses rule and I'll have Gage sit out. 8th level will have an even number of gladiators. If you change your mind please pm me so I can make Gage ready. As of now Fluiddragon and Dragonrain are ready Gage is out for the week (don't put him in the grave yard area he earned his place especially considering how week sorcerers are ;) ) |
| Moherajikuyx12-16-03, 09:04 AM | OK, but as it's a simple case, let's do the right procedure (to test it). |
| fluiddragon12-16-03, 09:36 AM | I guess Mo is right and since it is a simple fight it would be a good test case. Again I just want to reitterate that there are no hard feelings towards Mag, who I feel is a fine moderator. We all make mistakes. Dragonrain vs Tomar (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=69954&perpage=30&pagenumber=7#post2066771) Contenders Dragonrain vs Tomar Moderator = Magagumo Error 1. Me wand of entanglement was not allowed to be used in the match. My initial tactics were wholely dependent upon the use of the wand and had the applicable saves failed could have ended the fight. It was run on a thursday ro friday and since tactics are not due untill friday I shouldhave had an opportunity to revise my tactics if I was grossly in error, or defend my position. I was not given the opportunity to do so. Error 2. I think somebody else pointed out an error in the number of attacks that Tomar made which would have allowed dragon rain 1 more round in which to try and hit. This was back a few pages. Upon reviewing the fight again I cannot find this error, but maybe one of the reviewing mods will find it. As of now I see only the 1 main error. In conclusion a main piece of my equipement which is legal was not allowed to be used. I was not contacted about this and there was sufficent time to contact me and for me to reply. My tactics were valid and dependent upon this equipment. With a couple more rounds of archery and the elimination of some of his potions due to the resulting time delay I could have won the fight. |
| Alterlat12-16-03, 09:49 AM | @KerlanRayne: Unfortunately, you don't have to worry about identifying scrolls. Rangers and paladins cannot use scrolls until they hit 4th level, at which point they can cast read magic as long as their wisdom is at least 12. So the only time you would have an issue is if you were level 4 or 5 and had a wis <12. I know its rough, but at least once you hit 4th level you suddenly feel alot more powerful. In other news, it looks like the Panza blood is running rather thin. The latest entry from the tribe seems a bit morally weak - doesn't even have enough strength of conviction to live by the alignment he claims! |
| Moherajikuyx12-16-03, 09:59 AM | I know... But after all man, we're in the CO thread... I feel guilty though. |
| LLMadCow12-16-03, 10:05 AM | Quote by Caterane @LL: Ok. Just tell Mo. As for your background story I`ll try to incorporate something into the fight. You can either give me complete leeway or mail me some ideas you want to see on Chlio. I just sent you a nice long e-mail. I have had many ideas, and I am just asking for you to read over them and see what might work well into the story around the next fight. I am flexible, but that is what I have been working on so far. Also, I told Mo that you would run for me, so that should be good to go. :cool: |
| Alterlat12-16-03, 10:05 AM | @Moh: I was only teasing you - Babar is certainly far from alone in this. Maybe there are just alot of evangelical druids in the Core Arena area, handing out "Open your heart to neutrality" pamphlets. |
| Jindl12-16-03, 10:15 AM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Nice idea the good guys vs. evil guys. But when are we going to get on with lvl 9? I thought 4 guys are enough. Mo, we are waiting until we have 8 characters at 9th level, should be active again in 3 more weeks (we have 6 now, and will get 1 next week, and 1 the week after). @Tellish - good work on the charge+jump and mounted combat stuff. @Spike - you need to put in your str penalty to damage on the greataxe, and the nonproficiency penalty on attacks for the greataxe. (Unless necromancers are proficient with martial weapons?) @Irlina, Re: Scroll Activation - On #b - Please note that it doesn't make sense for it to be #b, because if there is a magical mishap, where did the magic come from? It came from the scroll, which therefore was used up in the process. So I am eliminating that answer. On #a - The caster level check exists to see if you can activate the scroll. If you fail the check, then you make the Wis check (which determines if you accidently activated it incorrectly). Passing the Wisdom check means that you failed to activate it correctly, but you had sense enough not to set it off like a bomb. Thus it wasn't activated, no magic occurred, and you may retry. On #c - There are requirements that must be met in order to activate a scroll. They are quoted below (from the SRD): "Activate the Spell: Activating a scroll requires reading the spell from the scroll. The character must be able to see and read the writing on the scroll. Activating a scroll spell requires no material components or focus. (The creator of the scroll provided these when scribing the scroll.) Note that some spells are effective only when cast on an item or items. In such a case, the scroll user must provide the item when activating the spell. Activating a scroll spell is subject to disruption just as casting a normally prepared spell would be. Using a scroll is like casting a spell for purposes of arcane spell failure chance. To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements. • The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class.) • The user must have the spell on his or her class list. • The user must have the requisite ability score. If the user meets all the requirements noted above, and her caster level is at least equal to the spell’s caster level, she can automatically activate the spell without a check. If she meets all three requirements but her own caster level is lower than the scroll spell’s caster level, then she has to make a caster level check (DC = scroll’s caster level + 1) to cast the spell successfully. If she fails, she must make a DC 5 Wisdom check to avoid a mishap (see Scroll Mishaps, below). A natural roll of 1 always fails, whatever the modifiers." Reading this it becomes clear that if you meet the requirements, you activate the scroll. If it is higher level than you, then the caster level check is one of the requirements. So, if you cannot pass this requirement, then you cannot activate the scroll (and it remains for you to retry.) The mishap is an exception to the requirements, because when you have a mishap the scroll "activates" in a reversed or harmful way. Hopefully, this clears up the issue for you. Remember, to activate you must meet the requirements, or have a mishap when you try to meet the requirements. Note: Use magic device works in a similar fashion (You pass and activate, you fail without mishap and may try again, or you roll a 1 and mishap which destroys the scroll). -Jindl |
| Moherajikuyx12-16-03, 10:23 AM | Alterlat, there's hope yet! Reading leadership I just found that there's a malus if you have a cohort of different alginment that you. I need to check out cohorts! (argh) |
| Jindl12-16-03, 10:23 AM | @Ethendril - Iku Rex would like to challenge Dusk the Adamant to fair and just combat in the arena. Do you accept the challenge? (Iku will prove who the real Jindl is ...) -Jindl EDIT: @ ALL - I have some new quotes for my characters on the Roleplay thread... |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-16-03, 10:46 AM | Here is the summary from information gathered from various sources and people. Enjoy! From a quesiont once asked. > 2. can you jump as part of your charge? Meaning if a flying > opponent is 5' out of your reach, can you jump the last 5' to hit > your opponent? You can. Jump is done as part of movement. Charge requires: * you move before your attack, not after * max movement is double your speed * move at least 10' * you must move directly toward your target * clear path and nothing can hinder movement * you must move to the closest space from which you can attack * you must have line of sight to the target at the start of your turn [note that 3.5 rules no longer say "straight line"] Jump rules: * a running start requires 20' of straight line movement before jumping * a running start is not required, but the DC is doubled without one * the jump is part of the movement * in a long jump, you reach a height of 1/4 the horizontal distance at midpoint * if you run out of movement mid-jump, your next action (same round or next) must be a move to complete the jump. In the example, the charge involves normal movement, which can be in a straight line so a running start for a jump is possible. The attack is not a separate action, so the round could end with the attack, the jump concluding on the next turn (Spring Attack could allow it on the same turn). "Directly toward" does not have a D&D definition, though straightness is usually implied by the term; D&D grid movement requires a stepped path in many examples of "straight" movement, and some rules ignore the vertical aspect of locations, if they aren't to large. In this diagram: +-+-+-+-+-+ | | |*|*|Z| +-+-+-+-+-+ |*|*|b|Y|*| +-+-+-+-+-+ |X|a|*| |d| +-+-+-+-+-+ on a horizontal grid, moving from X through and B to Y in order to attack Z, with the * squares unobstructed, would be considered direct movement. If the grid were vertical. with the character jumping from a through b to Y (to eventually land at d), it would a jump (no running start), requiring a move to next turn (unless Spring Attack allowed it the same turn). From the above statements, jumping should be allowed during a charge. Other supporing facts for this argument... ...from David Argyll, Nyrond Rules Monkey If you have the Run feat, you get a +4 bonus on Jump checks for any jumps made after a running start. =================== Given that the "Run" feat adds to your jump skill when moving, there is some implied assumptions about being able to "run" and "jump" in the same action. ==== Hop-Up would cause a charge or run to fail because your movement slows down. It's this that makes me inclined to believe that a more strenuous "high jump" form of "hop-up" would cause a change of direction...it slows down your forward speed. ===== Basically what David is saying, anything that alters your speed/movement stops the charge/run actions. You may charge/jump It should also be noted that making a successful balance check will allow you to charge across a precarious surface as your movement is not slowed, or hindered in anyway if you accept the penalties to do so. This summarizes charging and jumping from the pervious posts well enough to understand it's applications. Tellish |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-16-03, 10:47 AM | Again, as per request a quick summary of mounted combat. Enjoy! ...by Tom Bollis, RPGA Rules Monkey, author You don't use a move action of your own to move while mounted, so normal limitations on standard actions being before or after movement don't apply. You can even take full round actions while the mount moves ("you can make a full attack with a ranged weapon while your mount is moving" PHB page 157). PHB page 157, Combat while Mounted: "If your mount moves more than 5', you can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can't make a full round attack." THis does not say that you attack before or after the mount's movement, but when "the mount gets to your enemy". With respect to charges, it says "If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance (see Charge page 154)." This does not say that you can only attack at the end of the mount's charge, but you only get the charge bonus to damage IF you attack at the end of the charge. PHB page 155, Lances and Charge Attacks: "A lance deals double damage if employed by a mounted character during a charge". This seems to say that it applies to ANY attack with the lance made by the rider while the mount is charging, even if it is made before the end of the mount's charge, or if the rider throws the lance (-4 to hit, must be thrown with one hand). The 3.5 rules must be read carefully, as they often don't say or imply the same thing as 3.0 rules. If there is a general rule ("You can take a move action before or after a standard action on your turn in a round."), and a specific rule (you don't use a move action to move while mounted, and you can melee attack only when your mount has gotten to your enemy), the specific rule can alter the general rule, or can fall outside the conditions for the general rule. Attacking while mounted does not count your mount's movement as you using a move action, so does not limit when in the movement you can make an attack; it only specifically gives it's own restrictions on full-attack actions. Too many people fixate on one line of a rule out of context, without comparing it to the other text which often clarifies meaning. The use of "even" should be taken to imply that it is different from what happens with something similar in the rules such as ranged attacks while mounted and moving faster than normal. The use of the word "full" should also be significant, which it would not be with the interpretation of "normal". Originally posted by MotherBast > > the section called mounted combat has a nice > little 4 paragraph compalation explaining what actions can be > thaken, and when, when your mount moves. Anttacking at the end of a > double move isen't in there, and it also implies twice that you > can't attack if your mount moves more than its full speed, once when > it says you may make a singel attack at no penalty if your mount > moves up to its full speed. This might imply there was a penalty if the horse somehow moved at move than its full speed, or a penalty if you tried to make more than one attack, but trying for an implication that you can't attack at all if the horse is too fast is just reaching. By contrast, we have "If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack." If there were easy cases where you could not take any due to mount movement, that should read as such. You may make a single melee attack after your mount has moved more than 5', even it's maximum distance in any given round without penalty, up to and including Running. Also, according to Tom, beware the charing lance throwers. :D Tellish |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-16-03, 10:48 AM | There are the summaries MO. You may link them up. Tellish |
| Moherajikuyx12-16-03, 10:51 AM | Great job. |
| Moherajikuyx12-16-03, 11:12 AM | Jindl thanks for the reminder... I'm ok with three glads for some weeks :) I'm moving this down coz I had a doubt. Jindl & others, check this. Scrolls: one strange thing to remember is that there's no such thing as wizard or bard scrolls, there are only arcane scrolls, and no such thing as paladin, ranger, cleric or druid scrolls, only divine. Thus, a divine scroll of cure moderate costs 150 and is Caster Level 3, so a lvl 3 druid may use it with no CL check even though he has to be lvl 5 to cast cure moderate from memory... Strange but true. |
| Jindl12-16-03, 11:16 AM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx I'm moving this down coz I had a doubt. Jindl & others, check this. Scrolls: one strange thing to remember is that there's no such thing as wizard or bard scrolls, there are only arcane scrolls, and no such thing as paladin, ranger, cleric or druid scrolls, only divine. Thus, a divine scroll of cure moderate costs 150 and is Caster Level 3, so a lvl 3 druid may use it with no CL check even though he has to be lvl 5 to cast cure moderate from memory... Strange but true. Aye, you got it right. The difference is that the magic is stored in the scroll, you just have to know how to complete it. A mem'd spell, you have to know how to put the spell into your mind and then complete it. So, since the scroll creates the magic for you, a druid/sorc/or bard can complete it at a lower level than if they mem'd it. And, its correct by the rules as well :D -Jindl [gonna have my druid buy some scrolls: cure moderate, and a wand: dispel magic (CL10) ... ] |
| Moherajikuyx12-16-03, 11:20 AM | Good! One little thing about the roleplay thread: I think it would be easier to use it as a normal thread, not with the editing. |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-16-03, 11:23 AM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Good! One little thing about the roleplay thread: I think it would be easier to use it as a normal thread, not with the editing. Nah, cuz then it runs into the same problems here. You have to keep scrolling up and up to fnd the RP you want. The way it is now, i know where everone is and if wanna see what's new in the RP with a character i just zoom to it. Tellish |
| barrel_master12-16-03, 11:40 AM | Unfortunately, you'll have to 'award' me a late credit thing. It'll be up in a few hours. |
| Moherajikuyx12-16-03, 12:05 PM | Uff! What a task. Roster updated. To help me, I'm requesting a help-Mo thingie: on the thread title, there have to be these info: name - ready for the xx/yy - challenges or accepts. This way I don't have to find the last fight of every edited pc. Thanks! (Already added to the std sheet... It's the std subject :angel: ) From this week it's OK, but it will be mandatory from next one. barrel - good to hear from you! ToK - yes, but that's not this much used... Many people could miss many posts this way. Furthermore, there are already multiple posts per person... :blush: |
| Ethendril12-16-03, 12:12 PM | Iku Rex would like to challenge Dusk the Adamant to fair and just combat in the arena. Do you accept the challenge? Of course Dusk accepts the challenge. He would never bypass the opportunity to display the righteous might of his deity, nor the opportunity to prove, once and for all, that he is not Jindl! Ethendril |
| Ethendril12-16-03, 12:17 PM | Here's a thought about hit points: with the current system, the higher the hit die used, the lower the percentage of hit points you receive... Barb .58% of max (7/12) Ftr .60% of max (6/10) Clr .62% of max (5/8) Rog .66% of max (4/6) Wiz .75% of max (3/4) I wonder if this doesn't put the barbarians and fighters at a disadvantage. This may remove one of the largest advantages that barbarians and fighters have: high hit points. It seems like the following would be better: Barb .66% of max (8/12) Ftr .70% of max (7/10) Clr .62% of max (5/8) Rog .66% of max (4/6) Wiz .75% of max (3/4) This would put barbarians and fighters closer to the percentage of hit points wizards and rogues receive. I think this would make fighter-types more viable (especially at higher levels when they'll need it). Just my 2 gp. Ethendril (barbarian and cleric could actually go up one more hit point each and still be the same percentage of maximum hit points as wizards) This was my post on hit points a few days back. I noted two in support and none against so far. Does anyone else have any input on this or a better way to do it? Does it merit a poll? I think that the higher level we go, the more melee characters will suffer. Ethendril |
| Caterane12-16-03, 12:19 PM | @Mo: Ebelin bumps to level 9 and Vandaeris Dre'Dandrahl enters the arena... http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1934246#post1934246 Also did you relocate the link for Ebelin? He`s now at: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1934353#post1934353 |
| KerlanRayne12-16-03, 12:27 PM | @Alterlat: A ranger doesn't have to level 4to use scrolls. There are three conditions for using a scroll: Has to be the right type (Arcane or Divine) It must be on the user's spell list. Ability score must be high enough. All of those apply to a 1st level ranger using a scroll of Longstrider. His caster level isn't high enough (beng 0) so he makes a caster level check against DC 2. What I want to know is whether a ranger can buy a wand of read magic for 375gp to use on scrolls an how it would work in the Core Arena. KerlanRayne |
| Jindl12-16-03, 12:28 PM | @Mo - On the roster: The following characters haven't updated in 2 weeks (and should be moved to the inactive list): Lvl 2 - Pharuan Mizzrym, Tyreus Lvl 3 - G. D. Bebit, sloisel Also, I think Cat was gonna bump Ebelin, since Gage was sitting out this round (3 losses = 1 bump). Please allow characters that have standard sheet issues, if it will give an even number (like tate's character at level 2). The standard sheet is important (sorta), but not important enough to make other people sit out. Also, the inactive list needs trimming. The following should be removed from the inactive list: 1. both of piwi's characters are over 3 months inactive. 2. I would remove any level 2 character, because they can be recreated at full gp with no penalty, thus there is no reason to keep them saved on an inactive list. 3. I wouldn't put anyone on the inactive list unless they miss 2 fights in a row. So Gage would still be up on the roster (unless he doesn't fight next week either). This just helps us realize who we may face next week. If someone skips 2 weeks, then by all means move them to the "dead" list... And the email list of moderators needs a little trim work. 1. Imizael, piwi, and Wolfwings should all be removed from the email list, as they no longer moderate or participate in the thread. 2. Sir Cridion and Market_share both need to add their emails to the list of mod's. Finally, the arena awards at the bottom needs some updating. 1. Iron the Panza is the new unscathed winner, making it through 6 fights before loosing (maybe Alathar will come back and tie/beat this record?) I know that's a lot more work on the roster post, but hopefully it will clean it up and make it more user friendly (and shorter, so less need for scrolling...) Under my new appointed position of "Arena Rules Lawyer" :D , I am going to try and revise the first post of the gladiators thread into a shorter, more concise, easier to understand rules list. Hopefully this will improve the ease that newbies can read and understand the arena rules, as well as making it easier for us "old hands" to find the rules that we knew we saw somewhere. I'll PM an updated version of the post to you for you to read-over and edit into effect. Thanks! -Jindl |
| Ethendril12-16-03, 12:38 PM | Are you strong enough to stand with paladin brethren against the united force of Bruno and Bilo! We mean you! Well, then... I am a paladin, and I have been challenged...although I am only 3rd level now, challenge accepted (I'm sure you need some cannon fodder). Ethendril |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-16-03, 01:24 PM | Originally posted by Ethendril Well, then... I am a paladin, and I have been challenge...although I am only 3rd level now, challenge accepted (I'm sure you need some cannon fodder). Ethendril But of course they do. While Bilo and Bruno are getting pounded, er...i mean, killing their peers, i'll mop up the riff-raff. Tellish |
| barrel_master12-16-03, 02:27 PM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Uff! What a task. Roster updated. To help me, I'm requesting a help-Mo thingie: on the thread title, there have to be these info: name - ready for the xx/yy - challenges or accepts. This way I don't have to find the last fight of every edited pc. Thanks! (Already added to the std sheet... It's the std subject :angel: ) From this week it's OK, but it will be mandatory from next one. barrel - good to hear from you! ToK - yes, but that's not this much used... Many people could miss many posts this way. Furthermore, there are already multiple posts per person... :blush: Just a heads up, I'm finished you fight... you may or may not be pleased witht he results. |
| tate12-16-03, 03:05 PM | Hi guys, new guy here, thanks for the heads up bout my character sheet, I edited it to make it standard and added in that im a human etc. Thanks for the help, so now I'm ready to fight? (can you tell I want blood :) ) |
| Caterane12-16-03, 03:12 PM | @Snark: Bilo is not updated and since I am going out now and won`t return until tomorow noon I have to pre-mem. Didn`t you say something about AT? |
| Pitlords12-16-03, 03:22 PM | Jindl - I just found a more appropriate role for you, than the lawyer... Yes MISTRESS! Whip me! tate - cool to see you around! The standard sheet is safe! Jindl, you take the inactive chars list too seriously... That's not the dead chars, it's just a parking lot. I think I've got the solution... Check it in some minutes. BTW, AV won six times, and no one beat him... :( Cat, tell us if you want Ebelin bumped... The roster will have to show it. :devil: |
| Caterane12-16-03, 03:27 PM | @Mo: I said the same about the inactive list a week ago. Parking lot or no, there´s a difference between piwi`s chars, Alathar Vierce and character who merely sit out a week. I fully agree with Jindl. Ebelin sits out but don`t put him to the shelter for the homeless. I`ll decide it during the week. Harvester vs Bilo. LL asked me to mod the Chliodna fight, so be it. So much requests. Perhaps I should take money for moding :D |
| barrel_master12-16-03, 03:36 PM | Just a heads up, I'm only gonna have 1 active guy this week (Peter Patroclus)... but if you really need it I'll mod 1 fight (preferably low level). |
| Moherajikuyx12-16-03, 04:26 PM | barrel - ok, thanks for the disponibility Cat - I have to, because I need it when I count pcs and do the pairings. Level 9 can be an exception because the whole level is inactive. But check out the roster, I edited the famigerated list and now it shall be more acceptable by the purists ;) |
| MotherBast12-16-03, 04:31 PM | Tellish, very good compalation there. It all seems to now depend on exactly what Full-speed is. I would seem the term should mean the maximum speed one could move in a round. However, someone else posted a compalation of every instance that full-speed is writen in the book. You should look at it, its back a few pages. After reading it, it is very clear that in every instance where it is used, full-speed refers to moving the full amount of your listed speed, which would be 30' for a human, 40' for a dog, so forth and so on. It dosen't refer to a double move or a run in any of the examples where it is listed, so I really doubt it refers to a run here. With that in mind, your well detaled argument for attacking after a double move or run would become a well detailed argument for attacking after a single move, which was never in question. Still no evidence exists to suggest one could attack after a double move, and if it were possible to have less than none, then even less evidence would exist to alow attacks after a run. Also note that while moving on a mount, one could not take a full attack or full round option. While the book does say one could make a full attack with a ranged weapon, and that is a full round action, its not the same as saying one could take a full round action, which would be unlimited in what actions could be taken. It alows the use of the full attack option, with a range weapon, only. That is the only rull round action that can be preformed while mounted, as it is the only one listed. It is the exception to the rule, one might say. I do think your on the right track here though, and your resurch is well done, and I applaud your effort. However, if you'll resurch the term 'full-speed" a little more you will see it does indeed mean your base speed only. With that in mind, I would say back to the drawing bord on allowing attacks after a double move. |
| MotherBast12-16-03, 04:41 PM | On a completly different note, while I wouldn't mind seeing some special fights, like gladiator vs. Monster, or good vs. evil, I don't think any money should be rewarded for these fights, as it could have detramental effects in two ways. The first being that if the gladiators go all out to win, and use a lot of resorces, but only recive a small amout of money for the win, it creates a negative ballance. And the loosers are even worse off. Second, if the gladiator uses no resorces, and still wins, then it creates basicly free money for the gladiator, which gives him an edge over other gladiators not partisipating in the out of arena battles. Instead, I would suggest simply allowing any items used in one of these battles to be restored for free, but no money be awarded. This maintains a constant balance of cash win or loose, and dosen't create any unbalincing effects. |
| Moherajikuyx12-16-03, 04:45 PM | MB, yes I view "free fights" your way. About mounted combat, I believe that the exception is the impossibility of doin a full attack. All the rest is the norm and shall not be forbidden. For example, I'm pretty sure you can cast a full round spell while riding. The melee combat exception is even motivated: that's the "must wait for mount..." thing. |
| Sir Cridion12-16-03, 05:15 PM | Originally posted by Jindl 2. Sir Cridion and Market_share both need to add their emails to the list of mod's. Whoops! Originally I was just placing Aeriel there... wasn't really planning to play her this week. But now that you mention it, I guess I could try my hand at modding this week. My email for this will be (surprise, surprise) oathguard (at) hotmail.com Btw, about the paladin challenge: Sounds really cool! Faldion's in! |
| MotherBast12-16-03, 05:28 PM | MO, I disagree, but as its your arena, I will run mounted combat any way you and the other mods see fit. I often don't agree with the rules, and it is very easy to intreprate the same set of rules different ways. I think mounted combat is one of those cases where if you don't think its possible, then not enough evidence exists to convince you it is, but if you think its possible, then not enough evidence exists to convince you it isen't. However, we have the advantage of being able to decide for ourselves how the rules work withen our own game. I run mounted combat as I described in my game, and most, as a matter of fact, all of my players except my vision of the rules without question, but only one of them is what I would call a rules lawer. But in my game, I also did away with that silly "full-round action to ready a splash weapon" rule, as neither I nor any of my players could think of any reason why one could draw and throw a dagger in one round, or a rock, but not a glass vile. Actually, if you pored the alchy fire out of the vile, and then put a potion in it, you could draw the potion and then throw it in one round. That made no sense, so I did away with it. Its my game, I will do as I will. The arena, however, is our game. If I am in the minority on the mounted combat issue, I have no problem with running it any way the majority seems fit. A simple vote should decide the matter quickly. However, the original point that begain this argument was Prexx's argument that Lora could have thrown a range weapon after her mount had moved passed its halfway point, without a readied action. I don't think under either mine or Tellish's intrepration of the rules would this be allowed. So the fight I ran was correct by any interpration, and no error was made. |
| sshuit12-16-03, 05:32 PM | Sir Roger accepts the Paladin challenge. Sir Zippy also accepts the Paladin challenge. Details on RP board. |
| SnarkHunter12-16-03, 06:31 PM | MB: Yeah that sounds good, works for me anyway. For everyone (yes even you Ebelin) who's interested please post as such in the RP thread! Cat: Yeah Psych final ate my face. I'm going to update right now |
| Alterlat12-16-03, 07:02 PM | @Kerlan: The ranger/paladin scroll issue actually came up a few pages back. The reason they can't use them at low level is that their CL isn't 0. The rules explicitly state that they don't have a CL, and you automatically fail checks in a statistic you don't have. Believe me, I would have loved it if Jagath could have used longstrider scrolls two levels ago, but it simply wasn't to be. |
| etherealdragonfly12-16-03, 07:18 PM | I just started lurking on the Wizards boards after not coming here for a couple years. I never liked the old boards this newer software is better. I was on enworld for awhile but I started getting board of the same old stuff. I haven't read all of this thread as it is rather long so please forgive my newbie questions. I read some of the rules, I have not gotten a chance to read all of them yet but I have a few stupid questions. I gather this is similar to PBeM only gladiator style and I can only use the 3 main books right? How do I go about creating a character? Does it have to be approved by anyone? Or do I just post what I want to play on the other thread for characters? I'd like to play a spell caster but it looks like you guys already have a lot of them is it ok if my character is similar to other pc's? Are wizards or sorcerers better in this format? Any tips? Thanks for answering my questions. Ethereal xoxo |
| Ethendril12-16-03, 08:11 PM | How do I go about creating a character? Does it have to be approved by anyone? Or do I just post what I want to play on the other thread for characters? If you go to page 1 of this thread, there's a link to the Gladiator's thread with all the rules. There are also links to Fights, Polls, and Roleplaying. Welcome. Ethendril |
| SnarkHunter12-16-03, 08:21 PM | @fly: What ho old bean? I gather this is similar to PBeM only gladiator style and I can only use the 3 main books right? Close; You don't send round by round info. You send one set of tactics outliying everything you'd like to do to the GM who interprets and sets them against your opponents tactics. I would advice you to go check out some of the old fights to get an idea of what tactics work well. How do I go about creating a character? Does it have to be approved by anyone? Or do I just post what I want to play on the other thread for characters? No specific approval but if we (the board denizens and MO) notice anythign gratitiously wrong we'll let you know. If somethings isn't fixed by wednesday you won't get paired to fight. I'd like to play a spell caster but it looks like you guys already have a lot of them is it ok if my character is similar to other pc's? Are wizards or sorcerers better in this format? Any tips? Congrats, casters are powerful and fun. The good knews is there are very few-none arcane casters at low levels. The fact of the matter is there are many different ways to play a caster and I doubt we've expored them all. I say go with what you like and if its a little to similar for your taste you can always flavor to as you like :). For which is better, in the past many have prefered wizards, though recently the sorcerers have been doing really well. I really couldn't say at this point which is more powerful. Later. Edit: Hmm I don;t think Hanz will be getting Leadership. For one there aren't any possible cohorts he could get at his level with the way the rules are (aparently?) set up. ah well. Would have been nice to have a flanker, but if mods aren't feeling up to it I understand. |
| MotherBast12-16-03, 08:57 PM | What rules did we decide to go with on Leadership? Candy is certanly taking it at next level. Would any old monster out of the MM be an exceptable cohort? Does it have to be someting I can ride? Does it have an intellegence cap/minimum? I know it can't have class levels, but what if my cohort, say, casts "as a 3rd level sorcerror", just off the top of my head, is that still exceptable? I mean, he isen't a sorcerror, he just casts like one.... I need to know the exact guidlines, cause If Candys gona spend her money on this guy, he better give her a lota bang for her buck, if ya follow me. |
| cellardweller12-16-03, 09:14 PM | The srd lists the following as available: Blink dog Chimera dragonne Giant Eagle Gray Render Griffon Hell Hound Howler Manticore Mephit (any) Nightmare Giant Owl Pegasus Shadow Mastiff Sphinx (any) Unicorn Winter wolf Worg Yeth Hound |
| SnarkHunter12-16-03, 09:16 PM | Yah but how many of those are quivalent of 4th level characters? which is btw the maximum you can have at 6th level no matter your leadership score. For now I think weapon focus rapier would just be more straightforward. Personally I wouldn't think any kind of cohort to be a whole new level of difficulty greater then a companion+a summon or two. |
| cellardweller12-16-03, 09:21 PM | Originally posted by SnarkHunter Personally I wouldn't think any kind of cohort to be a whole new level of difficulty greater then a companion+a summon or two. But if that were the case, what would be the point in taking Tharmaturgist to level 5? |
| SnarkHunter12-16-03, 09:37 PM | Well the thaumatugists Cohort is a bit better then the average character's. What with any creature they call getting a permanent +4 str and Con. that and they don't have to spend a feat on it. |
| MotherBast12-16-03, 10:06 PM | what about non-creature cohorts though? Could I have a huminoid as a cohourt if he had no class levels, like a trogladite, or a gith? [Edit] also, what if a creature's alignment says "usually chaotic/evil" Could I have one thats alignmet is "chaotic/good", as the word usually seems to imply that not all of that type of creature must be that alignment. |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-16-03, 10:27 PM | ISSUING A CHALLENGE! Nevrlokagyft CHALLENGES Jagath Khir. Will speedy bow beat speedy swords? Does Jagath care to find out? The challenge is being posted in the Role-Playing Thread. Tellish @Barrel. I was reading the fight, and just wanted to remind you that every second diagonal is 10'. A few times the gladiators were moving 40' to 45' in a round. Also, i didn't see any listen checks for Targ to try to pinpoint his opponent in the ending stages. I'm assuming you rolled them but just didn't right them down? |
| Mercy12-16-03, 10:28 PM | @barrel - good running of the fight. @Mo - Targ will learn from his mistakes. Luckily he had a cash reserver :) |
| cellardweller12-16-03, 11:00 PM | Originally posted by SnarkHunter Well the thaumatugists Cohort is a bit better then the average character's. What with any creature they call getting a permanent +4 str and Con. that and they don't have to spend a feat on it. No they don't, planar allies are called, not summoned. Looking at the class, the first 3 levels are useless - 4th is ok and 5th is the real reason for taking the class. If what you are proposing is allowed, it will reduce the class to a watered down version of a single feat! By allowing any creature as a cohort, we are overcompensating for the overpowered nature of classes with "built in" allies (in an arena context). Currently thier effect is too strong but allowing any character to replicate it with a single feat trivialises the class feature. Something in between needs to be found . |
| Alterlat12-16-03, 11:05 PM | Jagath has accepted the challenge. Of course, he's not too shabby with his bow, either... |
| sshuit12-17-03, 12:11 AM | @mo. Just noticed that Zippy and Roger somehow ended up with the level 5's ..... That and Zorander is still with the level 4's...... I know that technically Zippy won that fight but I'm pretty sure those crooked referees said Zorander won :) He lost his fight this week so he should be with the level 4's.... Unless there was some kind of "divine intervention" :angel: |
| LLMadCow12-17-03, 01:02 AM | @Moherajikuyx - Ignatius is where Lothar was, and Lothar has moved to the end of the thread. I am still debating if I want to retire Lothar, rebuild him, or bring him back into competition. Cliodhna is ready for combat this week as well. If you need me to run a fight this week, great! If you do not need me to run a fight, can I burn one of my +'s and call it even? |
| LLMadCow12-17-03, 01:20 AM | @ALL - Was a decision made about allowing people to earn gold from their craft skills on a weekly basis? Yes, I am biased in asking since I just entered a character into the arena who could profit form this and will need the resources, but many others could profit from it as well. :) |
| SnarkHunter12-17-03, 01:43 AM | @LL:No decision yet. No vote either. I would say don't get the money yet. @Cellar dweller: Rats, I hadn't noticed that before. Mmm. Well that is how it compares to leadership in a normal campaign. I think it can still be a useful class if you're willing to invest some gold in it. If you cast an extended (automaticly) planar Ally and choose the 1 hour per level option you can get a 16 hour ally which means you could walk into the arena with him. Expensive sure but taking 10 on a diplomacy check you would only need 5 ranks to get him for half price. There is the Xp cost though. It would remain very expensive. The only other thing I can think of, is if you find an extraplanar creature with a LA of +1 or +0 you could get it as an ally of one or two levels higher then the leadership feat. Only thing that comes to mind right now is Aasimar or Tiefling. |
| Moherajikuyx12-17-03, 05:33 AM | It's always good to come and find new meat EHM! gladiators! :D etherealdragonfly: welcome! I hope the faster pace of this kind of fights appeals to PbEMers as well. Originally posted by MotherBast MO, I disagree, but as its your arena[...] :( I hope I don't give this impression. ToK motivated his reasoning so well that I was convinced you accepted it already; if you come out with a different reasoning, as well motivated, I'll be glad to discuss. Leadership: thanks cellar! Those are only the "cohorts only" LAs right? I'd add all the monsters with a defined LA. So yes, humanoids as well, but with no class levels and with standard alignment and statistics for this week. Mercy: good, and he's not alone! :) sshuit: thanks, it was the God of Sleep :blush: LLMadCow: ok, no problem you had 2 already. About craft, it didn't seem to raise much request... I think we have a lot of house rules already... And it would make the money checking more complicated by the mods... You sure? |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-17-03, 07:15 AM | @LL,MO: I only brought up the craft skills usage thing as an option to bumping. But since bumping got mass-approval, no need for crafting for gold. Tellish |
| Moherajikuyx12-17-03, 07:30 AM | Pairings under course! No editing please... |
| LLMadCow12-17-03, 07:53 AM | Is there anyone out there who would be willing to take a snapshot of Ignatius (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1323054#post1323054) for me? I mean all his vitals. I really want to finish fleshing out the Role Playing side of the character. I have plenty of Character Development ideas for him, but the pairings are under way... |
| fluiddragon12-17-03, 08:04 AM | Originally posted by LLMadCow Is there anyone out there who would be willing to take a snapshot of Ignatius (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1323054#post1323054) for me? I mean all his vitals. I really want to finish fleshing out the Role Playing side of the character. I have plenty of Character Development ideas for him, but the pairings are under way... Done, I saved it in a word document available to anyone who wants to double check it. -fd |
| Irlina12-17-03, 08:11 AM | @LLMadCow Ignatius should have Martial Weapon Prof. since he's an outsider. So he can sneak with a Greatsword or whatever and doesn't have to use a lousy dagger. |
| LLMadCow12-17-03, 08:13 AM | @FD - Mo told me that you will be modding for Ignatius this week. So just do not lose it, and I am going to keep tweaking his flavor text stuff. I started posying him last night and finally had to go to sleep. Thanks. Edit - Can I add the All Martial Weapons...? Edit2 - Okay, so Prexx is running the fight. Prexx - I sent you an e-mail. We'll chat more later... |
| Moherajikuyx12-17-03, 08:40 AM | DONE! Go check them! LL, I misunderstood, but no problem, fluid send the saved thing to Prexx and it's all ok. LL you can send the rule with the tactics to be sure. Irlina - REVENGE TIME! lol! New players - don't edit the sheet now! Everyone - have much fun! |
| Irlina12-17-03, 09:09 AM | @Mo: lol Can I get a guard dog for free :) Just for flavor!!! |
| fluiddragon12-17-03, 09:31 AM | double post |
| fluiddragon12-17-03, 09:32 AM | A shout out to the players I'm modding this week. If you get me your tactics by tomorrow I might be able to finish both fights on thursday. I actually have some free time this week. @Mo just a heads up I'm running 2 pc and 2 fights so I should get a credit right? Thanks. edit. Since I am running some mounted combats Just a heads up. I will be using the guidelines supplied by Tellish. I know there was some going back and forth about these issues. Take this into account when writing your tactics. |
| Alathar Vierce12-17-03, 09:59 AM | Hmm what ill luck in fight drawings, damn brawny meatshields :sad: Looks like cadion might be retreating back to his half brother for a loan on the next couple fights :) |
| Moherajikuyx12-17-03, 10:00 AM | Originally posted by fluiddragon @Mo just a heads up I'm running 2 pc and 2 fights so I should get a credit right? Thanks. When all the moderators reach one credit, I delete a column. |
| fluiddragon12-17-03, 10:28 AM | Tactics sent for Fluiddragon. |
| LLMadCow12-17-03, 11:25 AM | @Cat - Tactics sent for Cliodhna d'Elrich. Be sure to look for a total of 3 e-mails - the backstory, tactics, and follow up tactics for one aspect of the fight I forgot about. @Prexx - Waiting to hear back from you so I can e-mail tactics. They will likely be sent out tonight. |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-17-03, 11:50 AM | Taking bets and Starting a pool. How Many Hits Will It Take Mara To Kill Rito?? I'm entering this one myself. I'm betting 150 gold that Mara slices and dices Rito in just two hits. If anyone else wishes to enter the pool, i'll edit this post over the course of the week. LOL LOL Tellish Pool Notes: Tellish_of_Ket 150gp, 2 hits Fluiddragon, 150gp, 3 hits Jindl, 200gp RITO WINS :rofl: |
| fluiddragon12-17-03, 12:02 PM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket Taking bets and Starting a pool. How Many Hits Will It Take Mara To Kill Rito?? I'm entering this one myself. I'm betting 150 gold that Mara slices and dices Rito in just two hits. If anyone else wishes to enter the pool, i'll edit this post over the course of the week. LOL LOL Tellish 3 Hits and I'll see your 150 gold! |
| SnarkHunter12-17-03, 01:04 PM | @Fluid tactics for Hanz sent. @Mo: I'm just curious. Why do you think running tactics for a character and a 4th level Barabarian will be so much more difficult then the same character and a Bugbear? Aside from the bugbear being less effective I mean. It just seems like were being to hasty with leadership is all. |
| JonahBlack12-17-03, 01:11 PM | Hey everybody! I just entered a character (Grimlock, of the Blackrock Clan) over on the Gladiator thread, and I just wanted to say hi. Hi. I've been reading the fights pretty much since the beginning, but I've been dragging my heels about entering. Any input or comments would be appreciated. Thanks, Jonah |
| Jindl12-17-03, 01:38 PM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket Taking bets and Starting a pool. How Many Hits Will It Take Mara To Kill Rito?? I'm entering this one myself. I'm betting 150 gold that Mara slices and dices Rito in just two hits. If anyone else wishes to enter the pool, i'll edit this post over the course of the week. LOL LOL We should make it so our PC's actually do the betting. In which case, fluiddragon's iconic could bet, and one of tellish's characters could bet. The Elder would bet 200 gp that Rito wins... -Jindl |
| Ethendril12-17-03, 01:53 PM | @ Johan: Welcome. @barrel-master: Tactics sent for Dusk the Adamant vs. Iku Rex. |
| Caterane12-17-03, 03:03 PM | If you`re right Jindl you earn about 2k billion gp :D As for the celestial forces vs assassins guild I think there should be something in for us. But I also see the reason behind the doubts: even 100 Gold are 100 Gold extra cash. I thought hard (not that this means something with me *lol* ) and I came up with this idea: there`s winning cash, say 2000 Gold, ressources are not replaced. Now the cool part: every character may engage in such a fight and gets a mark after that (no matter the outcome). He must not participate in such a fight until all gladiators have a mark. So this fight is for good vs evil; the next one could be Might vs Magic, or the Arena Loosers (Rito, Dorrin, Hurtz, Irlina) vs some dummies, etc Note that this idea is far from perfect but it is a beginning. If we work all together we may come up with balanced rules and the arena gets an additional attraction. |
| MotherBast12-17-03, 03:56 PM | MO, I agree that Tellish's argument was very well done, but it hinged on a big error. The argument assumes that "Full-speed" refers to the maximum distance one could move in a round. That was an error, as "full-speed" referrs to a characters base-speed. I can't remember who did it now, but a couple of pages back someone posted every use of the phrase "full-speed" from the book. After checking it, its very clear that full speed means base speed. With that in mind, you would have to read Tellish's argument, replacing every instance of a double move or run action with a single move. Then it becomes a very detailed argument for the actions that can be taken during a single move of your mount. I still don't see any proof that you could attack at the end of a double move. But like I said, I also can't Prove you can't, I can only say the book dosen't say you can. Like I said though, Its a matter of intrepration at this point. I look at it as seeing nothing that would "alow" it, while people in favor see nothing that would "disalow" it. My own opinion is if you can't prove you can, then you can't. Thats just the way I look at the rules. Others might look at them differenty, thats why I say I will run it whichever way the majority thinks it sould be run. |
| Jindl12-17-03, 04:00 PM | @MotherBast - I appreciate both your and Tellish's efforts at intelligently analyzing the mounted combat rules. But I get the impression that the majority feels that you may make an attack after a double move or run, as per Tellish's analysis. Since that seem's to be the consensus, can we lay this issue to rest? (At least until it gets answered in the FAQ?) @Cat - I also would like to see a reward for the winners of the expedition match. But, I think extra gold is unfair/unbalancing, and keeping up with another counter is tiresome. Perhaps we could award the winners with something else ... prestige! After all, if we replace any and all resources used, then there was no money lost. But the winners could get titled or special recognition on the Rosters, or something like that. That's my idea. Fight in the expedition match for the glory, not for the gold. Re: Betting - I have been pondering the idea of opening a betting parlor for the pc's. They could bet on any match that does not include their player (either as a character or moderator). Thus Bilo couldn't bet on Skymoon's fights, or on any fights that Snark is modding. There would be a max bet, and I would set the odds each week. Bets would be made during the first 24 hours after pairings. The gp you win or lose would be added/subtracted from your cash, after the fight in question is posted. What do you guys think? If you like the idea, I would start a separate thread for betting... -Jindl |
| tate12-17-03, 04:22 PM | Ok I'm new to this whole thing and I posted a character a few days back, am I fighting this week? How can I tell who I am fighting? Do I have to issue challanges or anything to be assured a fight? Sorry for all the questions, I just dont know if I need to mail in tactics or anything. Thanks a lot. |
| Ethendril12-17-03, 04:35 PM | Krakskul, Prexx vs. Faffle, tate: MotherBast @tate: go to the first page of this thread. There is a link to the Core Arena Gladiators thread. Go there, and scroll down. You'll see links to all the gladiators and the fights this week. You're fighting Krakskul (that sounds painful!). MotherBast is the moderator, and you'll want to send tactics to the email listed there. Ethendril |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-17-03, 04:46 PM | Originally posted by Jindl @Cat - I also would like to see a reward for the winners of the expedition match. But, I think extra gold is unfair/unbalancing, and keeping up with another counter is tiresome. Perhaps we could award the winners with something else ... prestige! After all, if we replace any and all resources used, then there was no money lost. But the winners could get titled or special recognition on the Rosters, or something like that. That's my idea. Fight in the expedition match for the glory, not for the gold. Re: Betting - I have been pondering the idea of opening a betting parlor for the pc's. They could bet on any match that does not include their player (either as a character or moderator). Thus Bilo couldn't bet on Skymoon's fights, or on any fights that Snark is modding. There would be a max bet, and I would set the odds each week. Bets would be made during the first 24 hours after pairings. The gp you win or lose would be added/subtracted from your cash, after the fight in question is posted. What do you guys think? If you like the idea, I would start a separate thread for betting... -Jindl I would be 100% behind the prestige idea or title beside your character in the roster. Ebelin could lead the Celestial Forces, and Bilo (until he proved too weak and ends up with a dagger in his back) would lead the forces of evil. As for the Betting Column. If it does get done, and what a major house rule that would be, that Jindl would have to keep all names of those who bet a complete secret from other gladiators. Otherwise it could lead to throwing fights and shady back-room deals of allowing one mod to win, if their counterpart in the concpiracy ring also ensures his gladiator wins. As it stands there's no real motivation to throw or fix a fight. But once you start putting virtual character cash on the line then suddenly you have ppl losing money eyeing things with extreme suspicion and it could lead to dissent. Also, if it comes to fruition, i think the senior mods would be busy analyzing half a dozen fights a week for errors. Not something i'd be looking forward to. LOL Tellish. |
| MotherBast12-17-03, 04:53 PM | I think your right Jindil. Thats why I suggested a quick vote, to put the issue to rest. I also agree that i'm probably in the minority on this issue, so I'll let it go. concerning leadership, so now any creature with a LA can be a cohort? But they must use the listed alignment..... Ok, I can work with that. [Edit] I agree with Tellish, the betting thing is not a good idea. Bookies and strong-arms, not the kinda stuff I wana worry about on top of my fights. If this is instituted, I see an arena Mafia arising soon after. |
| Jindl12-17-03, 05:24 PM | Originally posted by MotherBast If this is instituted, I see an arena Mafia arising soon after. [glances at Snark and Magagumo] ... um, they're already here. As for the betting parlor, bets would be between pc's, there would be no house. Thus, if Hurtz wanted to bet against Bilo, he's have to find someone to take that bet... It's just an idea, if you don't like it, that's fine by me. -Jindl |
| fluiddragon12-17-03, 05:49 PM | I'm against betting too. I just thought it was a fun way to make fun of Rito's record. If its just for fun and doesn't effect characters though, cool. |
| tate12-17-03, 05:59 PM | thanks for the help, think i got it under control now. |
| Caterane12-17-03, 06:21 PM | Betting? Why not? It`s a 50/50 chance and your money. |
| Arstimis12-18-03, 01:47 AM | [double post deleted] |
| Arstimis12-18-03, 01:47 AM | @ Sir Cridion : I have finished my tactics. I hope they arent too confusing or difficult to understand, because it is my first time. If anything is then please email me and i will clearify. Have fun |
| Market_Share12-18-03, 02:05 AM | Yeah....i got my first fight done. Have to admit, i was a little nervous with all the pressure of making a mistake and all. I hope it's to everyones satisfaction. Well, all but one persons really. :D I hope the next fight i'm moding has more action. This one was one of those, oh hum, run...run Forest...run Forest...you stupid mother-:censored: ...it's just a matter of time before the Boogey-man catches you anyhow. SPOILER ALERT!! . . . . . . . . . . . Any post game comments Jim? I wonder if Fluid would have tasted better with barbaque sauce, or a honey-mustard marinade? Not sure that really mattered to Gorga...but she did look like she was enjoying herself way too much with the rump-roast. Too true Tom. Some people actually bring their children to these matches and i think Gorga will make some parents think twice before bringing their kids to any Gorga fights in the future. SPIKE |
| Arstimis12-18-03, 02:22 AM | I really like how you did the announcing, that made it much more fun to read. The only thing i have a question about is in Fluid's tactics..the first thing he said to do was cast scroll of invis..yet he didnt do that. just wondering Cant wait to see the outcome of my first fight, and its against you. May the better man win |
| Market_Share12-18-03, 02:41 AM | Originally posted by Arstimis I really like how you did the announcing, that made it much more fun to read. The only thing i have a question about is in Fluid's tactics..the first thing he said to do was cast scroll of invis..yet he didnt do that. just wondering Cant wait to see the outcome of my first fight, and its against you. May the better man win You should handily beat me in our first fight. You have pretty good saves. If i win, it's just the luck of the dice. As for Fluid not going invis: It was part of his main strategy tactic with the scroll of summon swarm. Since their was no swarm scroll and i guess i just figured it a failed strat, he fell to his back up plan #1 which didn't include it. Also there was no mention of the dog or healing. So those were confusing tactics to say the least, so instead of "improvising" i just played it to the letter of the law. As i sit back and think, it's probably good that Fluid didn't have quick-draw, as he may have ended up burning his entire wand on that fight, LOL. I think what ended up happening Arstimis was that Gorga ended up using it to hold the shiska-bobs that she made from Fluid's flanks. Indeed Tom, i'm gonna agree with you. I think that was a much better use of the wand. SPIKE |
| Moherajikuyx12-18-03, 05:56 AM | Tellish: you're despicable! BTW, can I bet for Mara too? :D Originally posted by SnarkHunter @Mo: Why do you think running tactics for a character and a 4th level Barabarian will be so much more difficult then the same character and a Bugbear? Of course, what I fear are rogues and wizards or clerics, more than barbarians. But I'm not excluding the thing, only, let's be not too fast with it: let's discuss it before. JonahBlack, welcome! I'll add your pc to the roster asap. If Tyreus updates his by tomorrow he might fight this week... good vs. evil - I suggest that only aligned pcs may participate... give me a good reason to make Iron true chaotic, his real alignment. And let's do a Law vs. Chaos then! :D vive la revolusion! Go anarchy! The prestige idea is wonderful... What about who wins earns a title like Sir, then Lord, then... don't know. bets - I'm against that too, difficult to manage in the gold bookkeeping. Hey people... No one announced the real fight of the week... Who's going to be the winner, Toad, or Prof. Vandaeris Dre'Dandrahl... Irlina or Caterane!?!?! Now to the fights! Ops... Yes mistress, the roster before... :weep: You whip, I obey :drool: |
| Arstimis12-18-03, 09:46 AM | I dont know why, but for some reason i thought combat relfexes allowed more attacks to one person during an AoO..im not sure what i was thinking, but i just realized thats wrong..so combat reflexes is nearly completely useless. Am i allowed to change that feat, once this weeks fight is over. If not...oh well |
| Irlina12-18-03, 09:58 AM | Hey, CR is VERY usefull. Just use range weapons like spiked chain w/ Enlarge and you can have multiple AoO - he just has to move more... |
| Jindl12-18-03, 10:03 AM | Check out Irlina's Sig... __________________ Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts. Irlina must be very brave indeed... :heehee -Jindl |
| Arstimis12-18-03, 10:11 AM | Yes..CR is very useful if you have the right stuff. First i'd have to get proficiency with chain, then buy potions of enlarge, Then hope he does move more so i can get the extra AoO's. Spiked chain isnt my style..so i wouldnt take it in the first place.. so CR is pretty much usless. there arent even any feats that have it as a prereq. |
| fluiddragon12-18-03, 10:12 AM | Um I don't know where market share got my old tactics but he didn't use the tatcics I sent him. He used the tactics from my first fight. WHY? This is what I sent him. I copied it from my sent mail Tactical Overview: Depending upon Smushy’s location at the time of my action use the wand of entangle to try and entangle him or in the area close to where he approaches me to create an area of difficult terrain. If there is difficult terrain then you cannot charge. The wand serves 2 purposes here. Stopping a charge from being possible and possibly entangling my foe. Please see notes below for all entangled effects. The 2nd part of my strategy is to fly out of range, use spectral hand and deliver shocking grasp attacks, until my foe is dead. Stay out of melee range at all costs. Note: You have full permission to use whatever equipment you want to win the fight. Use the wand with abandon of need be. Just don’t use everything if it looks like I have absolutely no chance to win. Start with scroll of fly and wand of entangle in hand. My dog is not going to be in this battle, he is home licking his nads. :D Specific tactics. R1 If I can see her use the wand of entangle and try to trap her. She may be close to me. If the area between us is entangled she cannot charge. Hopefully she will fail her save. Please don’t forget all the penalties and movement restrictions entanglement imposes. Move away from her taking cover if possible. R2: Read the scroll of fly and go to the top of the arena to buff. Take cover at the earliest possible time and keep the cover between us. His only ranged weapon is a javelin with a 30’ range. If I fail to activate my fly scroll move away using cover. If I have to entangle more areas to stave off pursuit do it. If my fly scroll is wasted by a mishap go to plan B. After I am sufficiently high enough buff in this order: Mage Armor, Spectral Hand. Step 3 Get into range of the spectral hand (130’) and using cover and cast shocking grasp using the hand to attack. I can attack in the same round I cast the shocking grasp in. Spectral hand gives me +2 to hit and Shocking grasp gives me +3 to hit because she is wearing metal armor. My total bonuses to hit are: +11 2d6 damage no save. This is a touch attack. If she is entangled her AC will be even lower. If I run out of shocking grasps use touch of fatigue and then finish with my bow. If I run out of arrows collect unbroken used arrows or recover his javelins and use them against him. Reactionary tactics: 1. If she is invisible and I don’t see her right away but I see her dog and the dog cannot reach me in that round then don’t entangle but read the fly scroll and gain altitude and cover ASAP. 2. If I fail at the fly scroll and it is mot used up in a mishap then try again. Keep your distance in the mean time and use the wand to create entangled areas so I cannot be charged. 3. If my scroll of fly is taken out by a mishap then go to plan B as outlined below. 4. If I am flying and buffed and cannot see or hear Smushy I will assume that she is invisible. Her dog on the other hand will NOT be invisible so this will become my primary target. DO NOT USE SPELLS ON THE DOG. Entangle the dog and shoot it from cover with my bow. 5. If I run out of my spells and smushy is not dead finish her off with my bow. Never get into melee range with her under any circumstances. 6. If the dog is dead but I cannot find smushy fly down to 25’ and scout once she attacks I she will be visible. Go immediately to cover, gain some altitude and proceed with step 3. 7. Use healing potions at your discretion. If you feel it is a good time to heal do so. 8. Use cover whenever possible and always stay out of melee range. 9. Whenever I have an opportunity use the wand of entangle to hold her down and make it difficult for her to move, if you deem it appropriate at that time. Feel free to use the charges of the wand if it is effective at that moment. 10. Use your descression and improvise if need be. Plan B: If I don’t have the fly scroll or its duration expires then go to this strategy. Cast exp. Retreat and keep your distance. Run if you have to and set up areas of entanglement as need to slow her down and prevent charges. Use the spectral hand and shocking grasp to hit her. If I run out of these use touch of fatigue then Finish up with the bow. ENTANGLEMENT: The range is 440’ DC 11. Even if she makes her save she can only move ½ when in the area. Each round she has to save again. If she is entangled he has a –2 attack penalty and –4 dex. Penalty. And since you cannot charge through difficult terrain she cannot charge me if there is an area of entanglement between us. Why were my tactics for my first fight used and not the tactics I sent? I'm getting real sick of my equipment being nerfed, or mods using old tactics. Now I'm mad common if you are running a fight and it is befoer friday and you see some problems with tactics for god's sake email the player!!!!! how hard is this.???????????? I awlays email the player if I see somethig wierd. I don't have any idea where Market got my old tactics as Tellish ran my first and only fight with fluid. I checked my email outbox and the above tactics is what I sent. I'll forward these to anyone who wants to verify. This kind of crap makes it not fun. Sould I even bother sending tactics if they are not used or my equiment is nerfed? How bout I play some deaf and blind elvish commoners with a 1 con. They would be more effective. |
| fluiddragon12-18-03, 10:18 AM | I hope the next fight i'm moding has more action. This one was one of those, oh hum, run...run Forest...run Forest...you stupid mother-:censored: ...it's just a matter of time before the Boogey-man catches you anyhow. Yeah the boogey man is dead if the mod uses the right tactics that were sent to him, not the tactics from his first fight. I don't know where you got the tactics from the first fight and why you did not use the tactics I sent you. So before calling my characters or strategy stupid try running with the right tactics. Make a world of difference. |
| fluiddragon12-18-03, 10:27 AM | You know what guys. This isn't fun any more. I played here because it was fun. I have a real problem with mods running fights where they see a major problem in the tactics and don't have the common courtesy to email the player and say hey I see a little problem here. It takes 5 minutes. Why does no one do this? I have no idea where market share got Fluids tactics. I checked my sent items and I did indeed send the correct tactics. Is Market really Tellish? Did he copy and paste the tactics from my first fight? Sorry for this accusation, my appologies tellish Even if I had sent the wrong tactics which I did not and you see a strategy that uses equipment that doesn't exist and you run the fight early, why on earth would you not email the dude? This really pisses me off. Both fights I lost in the last 2 weeks would have been much different if I was simply contacted. I don't mind losing if it was inferior tactics or bad luck or inferior characters. But to loose because the mods royaly screw up and don't bother to contact me pisses me off. It goes from fun to very not fun and very agrivating. edit: If Market doesn't rerun the fight with my corect tactics I emailed him I'm gone. |
| Market_Share12-18-03, 10:29 AM | Sent : Wednesday, December 17, 2003 7:28 AM To : Subject : Tactics for Fluiddragon vs Smushy | | Inbox -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Attachment : TacticsforFluidDragon.doc (42 KB) You will find my tactics in an attached word document. If you have any questions please don't hesitate to contact me thanks That's what i got, that's what i used. Sorry. Not my fault, you sent the wrong file attachment. Maybe before you go shouting blame, double check to make sure what you sent was the right file. SPIKE |
| fluiddragon12-18-03, 10:32 AM | First of all edit your post to remove my email address and phone number. second of all I have tripple checked the email I sent and the attachement is the corect one. I'll forward to anybody who wants to verify it. edit. I resent the tactics, forwarding the original message which I have checked that it was the correct document over a dozen times. |
| Market_Share12-18-03, 10:35 AM | If those were the wrong tactics, and others agree, i don't mind re-running it. But really, before you go shouting blame and yelling at me, you need to double check your facts man. Yu sent me two emails, the second one was to clarify that you wanted to use the wand of entagle at every turn. spike :( |
| fluiddragon12-18-03, 10:39 AM | please edit your post to remove my email addresses and phone number. I don't want the spam. Thanks |
| LLMadCow12-18-03, 10:59 AM | 1st - Stop the arguements. 2nd - Do not even start flaming, as I feel some are close to it. 3rd - NEVER post a persons e-mail address, real name, phone number, etc ON THE BOARDS! I do not care if it is for the sake of copying an e-mail, that is one part that can be edited and noted. @ALL - Sadly, I think we slowly get bogged down with rules and such, but we are also evolving from week to week. There have been two things that I have been considering recommending that we modify. 1st - We need one or two standard templates for submitting tactics. I have seen wildly different tactics written down in many different ways. A standard Tactis sheet would eliminate some of the confusion. I do not recall who it was that mentioned that they had to spend a long time reorganizing the tactics so they could understand them? That is an extra burden for the Moderators. Just like the Standard Character sheet, we could have the Standard Tactics sheet. 2nd - Running fights before Friday. This is all good and fun, but if a fight is to be run prior to Friday, then the Moderator MUST verify the tactics for the fight. I have had fights in the past where I sent REVISED TACTICS that were never used, despite being sent more than 24 hours before the fight posted, and well before the Friday deadline. We set deadlines so that we give people the best opportunity to sort out their plans for the combat ahead of them, and that is what they deserve. |
| SnarkHunter12-18-03, 11:12 AM | Spike I'd say if you've got the time you should probably re-run the fight. You could avoid the chance of an error point at least. I will say in general its a pretty fine between bad tactics and faulty tactics. It can even seem like we're putting the other person at a disadvantage because were improving the 1st persons combat prowess. I think we should have some guidelines about when the Mod is allowed to confer with a player about their tactics to avoid situations like this in the future. |
| fluiddragon12-18-03, 11:20 AM | Public appoligies to Market. I'm mad but I shouldn't insult you publicly. @ All. First of all this is a good bye. I had some fun, but it's not fun anymore. Perhaps in a few weeks or so I may come back perhaps not. There are a few problems with the core arena that lead directly to my leaving. Perhaps they should be re-evaluated. 1. I, like many others, spend alot of time working on fights, and making characters. When a mod see's something amis in the tactics, like illegal equipment, or equipment that does not exist then it is a common (maybe not so common) courtesy to email the player and bring it to his attention. You all should come up with a system to minimize this. I have lost 2 fights to these errors. It makes me feel like all the time I invested is wasted. 2. This is the other half of the reason I am leaving. If there are major errors in a fight there is no re-running of the match. I know that rule is to prevent someone from having every fight they lost re-run. But this rule needs to change. If a mod knows they made a major error it should be THEIR option to re-run the fight. If I made a huge mistake I would not mind re-running a fight and I know others here feel the same way. This would alliviate alot of hard feelings and fustrations. Because of this combination I am not having fun anymore. And I only came here because it was fun. I know some of you will feel like I am over reacting. But I do have a life outside of this and if its not fun why bother? I feel like at this point it doesn't matter how good of a character I make or how good my tactics are. My equipment is nerfed, or bogus tactics are used. And there is no redressing of the issue. I was not even awarded and error point for Dragonrains fight, which the mod of the fight said I should get one. And that was pretty cut and dry. My tactics depended on certain equipement that was nerfed. And I lost the fight because of it. So if there is no redress to bad fights and mods don't verify or notify players if they see problems in tactics or equipment then its not fun, and makes me feel like I'm wasting my time. -fd I'll run my 2 fights this week. And after that I will be gone. Thanks for the good times I did have. Least I proved sorcerers are viable. And I developed some tactics that others are copying so it wasn't a total failure. |
| Jindl12-18-03, 11:32 AM | Both LL and Snark make good points. Market_Share - Please make sure you fix the private info you posted, and then please re-run the fight with the correct tactics. I'm not saying re-run it because fluid's upset. I'm saying re-run it because tactics time is not yet over, and any mistaken tactics probably should have been verified before the fight was run. LL's proposal that we have a standard tactics sheet is intrigueing. I'll try to work up something over the weekend. Basically, the standard tactics sheet should allow players 3 different ways to show tactics. 1st way = round by round instructions. 2nd way = step by step instructions (some steps may take more than 1 round). 3rd way = if .. then instructions (reactionary tactics). Also, the standard sheet should have space for special reactions (if he goes invis ...), a healing threshold (when I get below ? hps ...), and starting equip. If anyone has more suggestions for spaces on the standard tactics sheet, please let me know. For those of us who hate the term "standard sheet" (Cat, me, others...) then please note that this tactics sheet could be used as a starting template for players to write their tactics on. There will be no penalty for modifying the sheet, it merely helps set a common starting point. On running the fight before Friday night, I am against this completely. Sometimes changes to tactics occur to players after the first version has been sent. Running the fights early prevents revisions, and that is a problem. So, no more early fights. If the fight must be done early due to RL complications, then make sure both players know and accept this in advance. Otherwise, wait 'til Friday night before running + posting fights. On confirming tactics, I think it appropriate to confirm tactics if they contain any of the following inconsistencies: 1- Use of equipment not owned by the character. 2- Use of spells not memorized/known. 3- Description of opponent is significantly wrong (like saying you'll wait until a non-barbarians rage wears off, or that you'll ready to interrupt the fighter's spellcasting, etc.) 4- Tactics were sent to the wrong person (like when people send tactics to the other player instead of the moderator). 5- The moderator rules that something in the players tactics is not allowed by the rules. Beyond these circumstances, I don't think the moderator should encourage the player to improve their tactics. Are there any other circumstances that you guys think should cause the moderator to confirm with the player? -Jindl @fluid - I know you're upset. But this is like the 4th time in the last 3 weeks that you have made the statement of "if I don't get my way, I'm leaving." Personally, I'm tired of hearing this statement. The threat of you leaving will not influence the opinions of the other people on this thread. Please refrain from making such statements in the future, as they have no place on this thread. (The last two sentences should apply to everyone...) |
| fluiddragon12-18-03, 11:45 AM | Originally posted by Jindl @fluid - I know you're upset. But this is like the 4th time in the last 3 weeks that you have made the statement of "if I don't get my way, I'm leaving." Personally, I'm tired of hearing this statement. The threat of you leaving will not influence the opinions of the other people on this thread. Please refrain from making such statements in the future, as they have no place on this thread. (The last two sentences should apply to everyone...) No you miss understand. My prior ones were to avoid having others leave. It was mainly for Cat as he was rather upset over some things and I didn't want to see him or any others leave because of certain rules. My whole view is if it is fun cool. If it is not fun anymore then why bother. I am leaving because of the stated points above. Basically I feel my time and energy are being wasted. This is the only time I have "threatened" to leave and its not a threat. I just wanted to clarify that. I may come back at some point, thats why I'm running my assiagned fights. I'm not having fun anymore. I feel quite fustrated at this point. I feel like the hours I spent coming up with original characters and original tactics, and everything is wasted. |
| LLMadCow12-18-03, 11:53 AM | Well, here is what I have been doing just to make sure things work out as planned... Subject: Core Arena: (Character Name) or Tactics for (Character Name) or (Character Name) vs. (Character Name) In the last version of the subject, the first line in the e-mail said tactics for (My characters name). I agree with: Step by Step or Round by Round or If / Then. I think that a Notes Section would need to be included. SCS should list the options: a) Feel free to use any item at your disposal when improvising, or b) Do not use any items not listed / do not improvise. SCS should have a small section for Flavor Text / Character Development information. Things to be cut or used: Spell Lists for each class. That is all I can think of right off hand.... |
| Moherajikuyx12-18-03, 12:05 PM | Originally posted by fluiddragon Public appoligies [...] This is better. About the error point, I left the explication out only because we decided to keep it secret (I didn't even have a word in that): I wouldn't have any problem in explaining my choices. Why didn't you ask by mail if you wanted an explanation? The no-rerun has other reasons too... I don't think this is the correct time to discuss it though. I'm sorry that you don't feel this is enjoyable anymore. Yes, obviously you don't have to stay, the ultimate purpose of this board is to have fun. I hope you will change your mind, in a day or two usually this type of angers passes. It's not for chance that I added the "wait 1 day" clause for error points issues. And I want my revenge with Curu! :) Finally, I think that if MS has the will and the time, he can rerun the fight, because this situation is particular enough as to not be possibly used as a precedent: usually the tactics are the right ones. MS it's better if you remove your and fluid's emails from your previous post. If you don't have time, or will, (edit: ) to post, than don't worry. Up to you. |
| barrel_master12-18-03, 12:36 PM | Originally posted by fluiddragon No you miss understand. My prior ones were to avoid having others leave. It was mainly for Cat as he was rather upset over some things and I didn't want to see him or any others leave because of certain rules. My whole view is if it is fun cool. If it is not fun anymore then why bother. I am leaving because of the stated points above. Basically I feel my time and energy are being wasted. This is the only time I have "threatened" to leave and its not a threat. I just wanted to clarify that. I may come back at some point, thats why I'm running my assiagned fights. I'm not having fun anymore. I feel quite fustrated at this point. I feel like the hours I spent coming up with original characters and original tactics, and everything is wasted. Farewell then. At the end of it all we have to do what is in our best interests and if the arena is just making you fustrated you should take a break from it, I know I would. |
| Market_Share12-18-03, 01:48 PM | My first fight and i really messed up. :( Some mod i turned out to be hunh? Anyhow i've been chatting back and forth with people, and i am going to re-do it. You can image how horrible i feel, dang, the first fight i mod, someone quits over it. Ack! Look forward to a "New and Improved" version of it, Ta-Da! SPIKE |
| barrel_master12-18-03, 01:52 PM | Originally posted by Market_Share My first fight and i really messed up. :( Some mod i turned out to be hunh? Anyhow i've been chatting back and forth with people, and i am going to re-do it. You can image how horrible i feel, dang, the first fight i mod, someone quits over it. Ack! Look forward to a "New and Improved" version of it, Ta-Da! SPIKE Don't let it get you down too much. We've all made mistakes and in the end all we can really do is try our best and learn. |
| Market_Share12-18-03, 02:17 PM | Ok....whoah there little pony. Timeout. First he ask that it be re-run and makes a scene, then e-mails me to forget it, and don't bother to re-do it. Hmm..... Sound to me like the boy's a little confused Jim. Well Tom, sometimes in life when we get handed lemons we need to make some lemonade. Gosh-all-mighty, you'd think he was the first one to be hard done by, by errors or something To each their on Tom, to each their own. Well, as per request, it shall not be re-run. Which is a shame really, i really (and i can honestly say that) wouldn't have mind re-running it. But it was his decision for it not to be re-run, so i don't know what to think about the situation anymore. At first i felt bad. I did, i really did. But now???? whoa boy, not quite as bad. Just ask yourselves a question if you will, for a second. If you were wronged, and that wrong was offered to be righted, wouldn't you feel vindicated or at least OK about it? I am going to go out on a limb here and say something. I don't think he quit because of this. If there was a problem with the fight (and there was) why wouldn't he just e-mail me, or at least with his first post, leave it at that and have it re-run? The error would have been fixed would it not? So why get all huffy and quit? I can't understand. Being upset because the proper tactics were sent and got royally messed up is one thing, but when it's an honest mistake, and let me tell you a very CUREABLE mistake, why would someone get all huffy? Don't know my man, don't know. I know if someone ever makes a mistake(s) in my fight, i will never get huffy about it. If it was the wrong tactics from an older fight, then i'd at least make my point calmly. Then cleave his head off with my axe if he refused, but that would be AFTER the fact...not before. I just think there's something underlying in there, that i haven't been privy to since my inception here. You don't quit after two errors, and one is completely fixeable so that actually only makes it ONE error....because for the length of time i've been lurking before posting this would be an empty arena. Anyhow? Where's the beer? Oh and pass the nuts. SPIKE |
| Magagumo12-18-03, 03:04 PM | Man, out of the loop for three days and people leave, mob wars start.. and complications arise in my Moderating duties. To explain, I am presently at my home, where internet conenctions are far less reliable than at school. IN fact, I am presently using my high school's internet to type this message. In other words, I am not going to be able to Moderate my fight(s) this week (Sorry guys :(). If someone can cover them, I would be infinietly appreciative. Furthermore, because my email is somewhat difficult to check, I really shouldn't be moderating any fights over the X-mas break (I return to school around Jan 12th). Thusly, I will only have one fighter go per week (I see Ayan Rocfeather was not placed on the fighting roster, so only Zorander's tactics need be sent ;)). I will at least be checking at the boards one per week, and will probably just have Zorander fight till I get back to school (as Bruno's level should be unfrozen by then). Sorry about all this guys, I feel bad for placing a burden on the other Mods :/. @Snark 5th level is the maximum level for Leadership at 6th I thought (1 level below PC). Also, I think Snark makes a good point about a monster being fairly similar to a barbarian base race... I say let him grab the orc barb cohort (heck, I'd be happy to Mod his fights with the cleric cohort.. err.. when I Mod again that is ;)). We need to test this idea eventually, or we will never see anyway grab the feat.. and there will only be more complaints about class-based cohorts :-P SO let's see, I can't Mod, only Zorander will be fighting.. oh yea, Snark's madness :D (God Bless, the Board Mafia) Say the word, and the gnomish gnecromancer will be happy to lend Bilo a hand or ten in beating down the so-called "forces of light." I believe no resources used will be held against us, and that this should be for pure prestige only. However, if it is only Bilo and I, I will be requesting a temporay hold on the ally limit, because if the two of us are to have some fun, I'm going to be needing Tommy III and Turkish to make this truly enjoyable ^_~. Let me know how this progresses.. Kelek, you in for this with us? :) Harvester? |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-18-03, 03:32 PM | Originally posted by Magagumo Man, out of the loop for three days and people leave, mob wars start. Say the word, and the gnomish gnecromancer will be happy to lend Bilo a hand or ten in beating down the so-called "forces of light." I believe no resources used will be held against us, and that this should be for pure prestige only. However, if it is only Bilo and I, I will be requesting a temporay hold on the ally limit, because if the two of us are to have some fun, I'm going to be needing Tommy III and Turkish to make this truly enjoyable ^_~. Let me know how this progresses.. Kelek, you in for this with us? :) Harvester? Well, if you consider a mob of one a mob. lol. Kelek is in. I think it will be a lot of fun. Too bad Ability Focus: Death Attack isn't a fighter bonus feat. Otherwise my last level i would have delayed the azn progression to take another fighter lvl for it. Oh well, i'll have to wait until 9th. I think next week will be my last week as well until the xmas holidays are over. I'll be away for almost a week. Not quite, but long enough to cause delays if i'm moding or fighting. Tellish |
| Galamdring12-18-03, 03:56 PM | Why is everyone betting on me?!? You just never know what may happen. I bet on Rito Maya. :) Anyway, my tactics have been sent to Motherbast. |
| Moherajikuyx12-18-03, 04:06 PM | Rito bets on Mara and Mara bets on Rito. The gladiators go in, and at the start signal, they throw themselves on their weapons. Mara at least dies of steel: Rito dies strangled... :rofl: Edit: OK Mag, tell us before next time though. ToK and Kerlan send me your tactics pls. |
| Sir Cridion12-18-03, 04:53 PM | @fluid: Farewell then. Maybe in the future we'll see a new generation of sorcs come back to the arena :) @Artismis, Moh, Alathar and Market: All tactics recieved; this is gonna be tough to run, hopefully I don't make too many mistakes... |
| Ethendril12-18-03, 05:09 PM | Custom items are not allowed, unless crafted. I'm not really sure I understand the rules for purchasing items. Does this mean I can only buy the "Specific Items" in the DMG, such as a Frost Brand or Holy Avenger, or could I purchase a Vorpal Thundering Greataxe that is "custom," but with a determinable price? Ethendril |
| Jindl12-18-03, 05:12 PM | Weapons and Armor can be bought with any combination of enhancements and special materials, as allowed per the rules. No custom items refers to coming up with new types of wondrous items, staves, rods, rings, or potions. And it refers to inventing new types of weapon and armor enhancements. These things require DM approval in a normal game, and are not allowed here (due to the lack of a single deciding DM). -Jindl EDIT: In truth, we have disallowed crafting of custom items as well. It just hasn't been updated yet on the rules. I'm working on a more complete and concise draft of the rules to present ot Mo. If he likes my copy, then he can replace the current collage of rules and instructions. |
| Ethendril12-18-03, 05:17 PM | Thanks, Jindl. |
| Ethendril12-18-03, 05:17 PM | -double post- |
| Moherajikuyx12-18-03, 06:31 PM | Originally posted by Jindl No custom items refers to coming up with new types of wondrous items, staves, rods, rings, or potions. And it refers to inventing new types of weapon and armor enhancements. Also forbidden is applying normal enhancements to unique weapons. |
| Ethendril12-18-03, 06:42 PM | Also forbidden is applying normal enhancements to unique weapons. Not that I'll have the gp to do this for a long time, but are you saying one couldn't take a Dwarven Thrower, Holy Avenger, Frost Brand, or Hattori Hanzo sword, for example, and apply a +5 bonus to it? Ethendril |
| MotherBast12-18-03, 06:45 PM | Perhaps Jindl's new proposition could somehow include the ability to purchase see invis potions. I know its not likely, but at the moment, the casters get access to improved invis wayyyyy before the non-casters get any way to see invis, besides dust of reveling, which is to expensive and chancy to be used regulary. Just a beef I have. Reseved all tactics, and will proablaby run Rito vs. Mara tomarrow afternood. The level two fight will have to wait till Sunday night unless the Rito vs. Mara fight is less than an hour, which I don't see as very likely. Also, I just e-mailed a picture of Candessa "Eyecandy" Rain, aka. Candy, the official arena "Bunnybabe" to Cat, for possible linkage or posting. Btw MO, her Cha is 21 if ya count the cloak. (She isen't wareing it in the picture though.... but she isen't really waring much of anything in that picture.) I was just wondering, would being the hottest chick in the arena, a part time comentator, a bard of no small talent, and a local fan fovorit be enough to gain the +2 leadership bonus from prestige? Not that it really matters, her Cha bonus is enough to top out her cohort's max level, I was just wondering for Leadership score calculation reasons. |
| Jindl12-18-03, 07:00 PM | No custom potions. If seeing the invisible is really an issue, then buy a hand of glory. In addition to allowing a 3rd ring slot, it allows the wearer to see invisible 1/day. Only 8000 gp (which means anyone could buy one at 6th level, which is before you can cast improved invis.) The prestige bonus to leadership is a good reward for an exhibition match... -Jindl |
| Sir Cridion12-18-03, 07:13 PM | Hmm... I've run the first fight, and I was wondering if it were possible for me to send it to a more senior mod to check over mechanically; it's not very long, just the basics. Thanks |
| Jindl12-18-03, 07:18 PM | Originally posted by Sir Cridion Hmm... I've run the first fight, and I was wondering if it were possible for me to send it to a more senior mod to check over mechanically; it's not very long, just the basics. Thanks Sure, send it over (email or pm). -Jindl |
| MotherBast12-18-03, 07:25 PM | 8,000gp. Brackin is 7th level, and I have never had 8k on him. A caster might be able to save 8k by 6th level by buying or crafting really cheep scrolls, but all of Brackin's buffs are in potion form, very expensive. He will win 8k whenever he wins his next fight, and then it would take all of his winnings to buy that item, (which, by the way, I had intended to do.) So 8th is about the level that most non-casters will be able to easly pick up an anti-invis item. Meanwhile, Scrolls of Improved Invis can be used, at 6th level easly, 5th level even, though the cost might make some at that level think otherwise. I know custom potions wern't going to be alwoed, I was really just venting. My second week in a row vs. someone with an improved invis scroll in there inventory. |
| Jindl12-18-03, 07:35 PM | @MotherBast - Heh, luckily Brackin doesn't have to buy expensive weapons and armor, or more scrolls and scribing costs to expand his spellbook, or pay for valuable allies and their equip, etc. I guess what I am saying is we prioritize our purchases. If the ability to see invisible was that important, you would save up for it. Or, you could take the blind-fight feat, like Rito. But, much like the sleep tactic, Improved Invisibility can only give an edge for a couple of levels. By the time everyone is 10th, most people could easily have a hand of glory, or a spot/listen check high enough to notice you even when you are invisible. So, its a temporary problem for levels 5-9. Just like sleep was a temporary problem for levels 2-4. I'm sure we'll see more of these temporary problems. Personally, I think the whole Initiative issue is a temporary one, as saves and hps will increase to make the 1-hit kill/spell disappear. That's why I'm still voting to not change the initiative set-up. But, that's a whole other topic... -Jindl |
| cellardweller12-18-03, 08:38 PM | Originally posted by MotherBast ...would being the hottest chick in the arena... Smushy takes offence at that!:D |
| SnarkHunter12-19-03, 12:47 AM | From the SRD Cohort Level: The character can attract a cohort of up to this level. Regardless of a character’s Leadership score, he can only recruit a cohort who is two or more levels lower than himself. The cohort should be equipped with gear appropriate for its level. A character can try to attract a cohort of a particular race, class, and alignment. The cohort’s alignment may not be opposed to the leader’s alignment on either the law-vs-chaos or good-vs-evil axis, and the leader takes a Leadership penalty if he recruits a cohort of an alignment different from his own. Gwar. At 6th level with a leadership score of 6, you are allowed to have a 4th level cohort. Since this is the maximum cohort you are allowed to have, a high Charisma is once again not useful. I was surprised. Anyway, I'll send of Bilo tactics tonight. So far I've got Kelek and brackins e-mail for my fight, I'll prolly run it sometime Saturday. |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-19-03, 03:21 AM | Question for our resident rules lawyer: @jindl Q: Can a held person, still maneuver around with Fly spell? From the Fly spell: "Using the fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking..." From Hold Person spell: "Subject becomes paralyzed and freezes in place. It is aware and breathes normally but cannot take any actions, even speech." I think the key phrase here is "cannot take any actions". I would include this into the fly spell in that the person with the fly spell cannot navigate and must just hover there. Any other thoughts? Tellish |
| Wizard12-19-03, 04:02 AM | The wording of the spell sucks. If they'd simply removed the word "paralyzed," then it would have made things much more clear. With it there, it's implied that only physical actions are impaired, allowing for psionics and silent/stilled spells. We've always had the held creature float down to the ground. *10 minutes later* I checked the FAQ, and couldn't find anything from Skip. I do seem to remember an example somewhere in which a held mind flayer was still able to exercise its mind blast ability. Also, I just posted my character, but I realize it's the middle of Thursday night\Friday morning, so I can wait 'til next week. I can mod, as well. E-mail address is in the profile. *snores* |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-19-03, 04:08 AM | Originally posted by Wizard The wording of the spell sucks. If they'd simply removed the word "paralyzed," then it would have made things much more clear. With it there, it's implied that only physical actions are impaired, allowing for psionics and silent/stilled spells. We've always had the held creature float down to the ground. *10 minutes later* I checked the FAQ, and couldn't find anything from Skip. I do seem to remember an example somewhere in which a held mind flayer was still able to exercise its mind blast ability. Also, I just posted my character, but I realize it's the middle of Thursday night\Friday morning, so I can wait 'til next week. I can mod, as well. E-mail address is in the profile. *snores* i think that was true in 3.0. Now it's just cannot take any actions. That would include spellcasting regardless of metamagic. Now hold person allows you a save every round to break free, thus likewise i think it's ability to "freeze" you in place are stronger and more properly written than 3.0. In 3.5 a mindflayer would definately not be able to exercise it's mind blast...that would still require an action, which it cannot take. Tellish |
| Wizard12-19-03, 04:21 AM | I agree and disagree. The denotation of the wording points to the inability to perform purely mental actions as well. But the connotations are another story. "Even speech" and "paralyzed" point to a physical impairment. Furthermore, if the creature is still aware, aren't they performing an action simply by thinking? I'm not exactly on one side or another, but I'm trying to make sure you know that it's anything but clear-cut. For further discussion on this, drop over to Spells and Magic Items; it's where I do most of my posting, and it's where this should really be discussed. |
| Caterane12-19-03, 07:18 AM | On confirming tactics, I think it appropriate to confirm tactics if they contain any of the following inconsistencies: 4- Tactics were sent to the wrong person (like when people send tactics to the other player instead of the moderator). Hi Mo :D Ooooookay, let`s see: Fluiddragon It`s really a pity that he leaves us. I hope he comes back soon. Well, there`s a fight to run (Dragonrain vs Chliodna) and I`m not sure if it makes sense to run it at all. I have my own reasons for and against but I would like to hear your opinion on this first. Title rewards Great idea Jindl! That`s a perfect solution and I allowed myself to enhance this idea further. The titles should be announced before the fight as an incentive. Every party gets a different title so the Assassins Guild (in case of a victory; highly unlikely I know) will be known as Prime Assassin or something while the Forces of Light will be rewarded with a more fitting title. Now the cool part: This title will be put behind your character on the roster and it gets its own link, a link to a so called "Title page" where the title is explained and how the gladiator got it; perhaps even more. Collecting titles is really cool. Forces of Light vs Assassins Guild So it`s Ebelin, Skymoon, Faldion and Roger against Bilo, Bruno and Kelek. I especially like the sugestion of Ebelin being the leader since he`s the only member of the Celestial Forces. Perhaps there should be a fourth person on the evil`s side. How do we make sure it`s balanced with having different CR involved? Bump After having cried all night into my pillow for this bump entry I came up with a good idea: anytime you can forego a just-earned victory in order to delete a bump. Pleeeeease. I'm going to be needing Tommy III and Turkish to make this truly enjoyable ^_~. Let me know how this progresses.. Kelek, you in for this with us? Harvester? Will the Harvester join against the Forces of Light? (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2123349#post2123349) Edit: Market, I send you tactics in a few hours. |
| Caterane12-19-03, 07:37 AM | Question: Can I enter the arena behind the full cover of a tower shield? That would limit the options of opponoments who won ini. I ask because Irlina does that. |
| Moherajikuyx12-19-03, 08:00 AM | Good moooorning ARENA! Originally posted by MotherBast her Cha is 21 if ya count the cloak Of course we're counting the NAKED cha... :drool: Originally posted by Jindl The prestige bonus to leadership is a good reward for an exhibition match... Approved! *stamps* Who has a title has that bonus. Are there new fights? *runs to check* |
| Irlina12-19-03, 08:32 AM | @Cat Sure can you use a Tower Shield for full cover. It's normal equipment. But this will only protect from missile fire, not from most spells (not even touch spells). And you can sunder it, shatter (spell) it... So yes, a tower shield is usefull but also not balance-breaking. |
| LLMadCow12-19-03, 09:03 AM | @PREXX - I sent revised tactics for Ignatius. |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-19-03, 09:18 AM | It's done. I did some research because something came up that i was unfamiliar with. I have to admit, i learned a few new answers in that fight, which also came up with new questsions. First, i think i did make a mistake. I allowed Pyre to fly away AND attempt to break free from the effects of Hold Person. In hindsight, i think that was an error, because under hold person it says that they "MAY attempt" and that it's a full round action to do so. So nothing forces a person to want to break out. I think in this case Pyre should have just flown off without trying to break free. But it doesn't really matter as Pyre only broke free on the last round that the Hold Person would have ended anyhow. As for the forces of evil, isn't Iron getting a little corrupt? Maybe he feels the pull to the dark side? hmm? heheh That would make 4/4. Awesome indeed. Tellish |
| Caterane12-19-03, 10:08 AM | Now what about Fluids Dragonrain vs Clio? Run it or not? His tactics say something like "Hope she wins" |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-19-03, 10:23 AM | Originally posted by Caterane Now what about Fluids Dragonrain vs Clio? Run it or not? His tactics say something like "Hope she wins" Sad, but i'd say no. At least that's my take on it. If he doesn't want to participate then that's his decision. Cliodna would get an auto-win in this case. But also, i wouldn't credit Dragonrain with a loss either. Just leave him inactive until he returns. Then again, that's just my opinion. Tellish |
| Caterane12-19-03, 10:42 AM | Well he DID send me tactics (some 3 lines or so) but I`m not sure because of several reasons. This is what I emailed him: It is not motivating to run a "dead" character with "I hope she wins" in the headline, neither for me who spends hours and hours on writing a story nor for the other players who a) will know who wins b) are not overly enthusiastic in reading my fight for there`s a non-existing character participating. Lastly I write the fights for the participating players mainly and having 50% not care about the outcome doesn`t spur me to great heights. If you still want it I`ll run the fight, no problem, really. @LLMadCow: I`ll mod Chliodna next week then, ok? |
| etherealdragonfly12-19-03, 11:00 AM | I posted a new character. I don't think I made any mistakes but somebody might want to check it. I couldn't read the courier font so I didn't make it like the standard I hope that was ok. I think she is original and it looks like you guys need a new villan! I also tried to keep her different from the others. Now I just need to come up with a personality for her. |
| LLMadCow12-19-03, 11:06 AM | Quote by Caterane If you still want it I`ll run the fight, no problem, really. @LLMadCow: I`ll mod Chliodna next week then, ok? Well, I was really looking forward to seeing the rematech between Cliodhna and Dragonrain, but I can accept the offer to mod for my next fight. Thanks. @Mo - What do I do about this weeks fight? Since Fluiddragon is leaving us, is the current fight considered a Dragonrain forfeit? I believe that this is what was done in the past... |
| barrel_master12-19-03, 11:14 AM | @jindl: Hello, unfortunately I haven't recieved your tactics yet (and it's past the GMT+1 deadline). Could you send them to me as soon as you can? My schedual just became a little tight and I would like to get started. |
| Alterlat12-19-03, 11:18 AM | Hi ethereal The character looks good - the only thing I noticed was that you didn't include the nonproficiency penalty on the net. It'll be interesting to see her in action. |
| Moherajikuyx12-19-03, 11:36 AM | Yes, of course, we owe a minimum of respect to fluiddragon, a veteran by now: let's not make a virtual fluid participate. e.d.fly - I'll update the roster now :) |
| Caterane12-19-03, 11:37 AM | She`s called Ellebereth??? *HRMPF* Ebelin`s father is called Elbereth Barnahdy. |
| Moherajikuyx12-19-03, 12:01 PM | New characters added! (Cat where's yours? :blush: ) - Important notice - fluiddragon's fights were reassigned: Targ, Mercy vs. Sir Zippy and Sir Roger, sshuit: LLMadCow Faldion Oathguard, Sir Cridion vs. Hanz Vonnegut, SnarkHunter: Tellish_of_Ket Be sure to send the tactics to the new moderator. Bye! |
| Jindl12-19-03, 12:09 PM | Originally posted by barrel_master @jindl: Hello, unfortunately I haven't recieved your tactics yet (and it's past the GMT+1 deadline). Could you send them to me as soon as you can? My schedual just became a little tight and I would like to get started. Sorry barrel, my schedule had gotten a little busy too. Gimme about 45 minutes and I'll pm them to you. -Jindl |
| Elgonn12-19-03, 12:12 PM | @Tellish Concerning Spike vs Pyre: 3.5 Hold Person prevents any action even mental or movement. Elgonn |
| SnarkHunter12-19-03, 12:13 PM | Mo: I believe fluid had said he still plans to un his fight. This is important because I didn't save copy of the tactics I e-mailed and I'm not eager to recreat them :D. If Fluid is not in fact running the fight I suppose he could forward my tactics at least. |
| Moherajikuyx12-19-03, 12:19 PM | Oh I missed that. I'll email to ask him. |
| fluiddragon12-19-03, 12:22 PM | I forwarded the tactics for the gladiators to the appropriate mods. I was planning on running the fights, as I didn't want to shaft anyone. Thanks LL and Tellish for running them g'luck. |
| barrel_master12-19-03, 12:24 PM | Originally posted by Jindl Sorry barrel, my schedule had gotten a little busy too. Gimme about 45 minutes and I'll pm them to you. -Jindl Could you possibly email them too? Just to make sure. |
| Jindl12-19-03, 12:27 PM | @Sir Cridion - I just replied to your PM that you sent me... @Tellish - Elgonn is correct. Held creatures cannot walk, therefore they cannot move under the influence of a fly spell. Since fly works at a good manueverability, they don't have to expend movement to hover, and therefore they simply stay in one place while held. They can't fly anywhere, and they don't float to the ground until the fly spell ends. They just hover in place while held. Re: Clio's fight. The precedent is that the fight is a forfiet by dragonrain, and Clio gets a free win. This has happened twice before, and that's a pretty strong precedent. So, I think LL gets lucky this time, and Clio advances. Unless fluid sends actual tactics, or Cat wants to run off his defaults. -Jindl EDIT: @barrel - no, I can't email them from work. We'll have to trust in the PM ... |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-19-03, 12:54 PM | Originally posted by Jindl [B@Tellish - Elgonn is correct. Held creatures cannot walk, therefore they cannot move under the influence of a fly spell. Since fly works at a good manueverability, they don't have to expend movement to hover, and therefore they simply stay in one place while held. They can't fly anywhere, and they don't float to the ground until the fly spell ends. They just hover in place while held. [/B] Ya, that's how i originally had it laid out in the fight. But then just as i was about to post it, i stopped to think about it. Here's what i came up with. Under the definition of paralyze it says a creature can only take purely mental actions. I gave the benefit of the doubt and played it like Pyre could move around and try to evade. I kept the rolls the same and tried to see if it made a difference. It didn't. Even with the first point of cover it was still a hit, and that solidified it. So i edited the fight and posted it with Pyre's movement just in case i was wrong in letting him stand there, and since it didn't impact the fight, i figued well...if i was wrong in the movement then the result is the same. But if i had left Pyre immobile hovering and it turned out i was wrong in my initial thoughts on the spell, then there'd be more bickering. So i err'd on the side of caution. Wow, with all the confusion, i just went from running one fight to three....ack! I make no guarantees on story for Hanz/Cridion fight. It may end up being bland and just the facts. I've been working overtime on Harvester/Bilo. Tellish |
| Jindl12-19-03, 01:04 PM | @ToK - go ahead and send me the Hanz/Faldion fight. I can do it this weekend (and Mo can give me another credit :D) @barrel - Tactics PM'd. Please read them and reply to let me know if there are any ?'s or problems. -Jindl EDIT: @ToK - Did Spike make a concentration check to cast while his mount was running? Did Spike take a penalty on his ranged attacks when his mount made more than a single move? Not that it matters, since the fight ended with a Zorander. Just wondering. |
| LLMadCow12-19-03, 01:28 PM | Well, in the PHB on page 179, it states that some wizards allow others to copy spells out of their spell books at a cost of (Spell Level x 50gp). Can we do this in the arena, or must we buy a scroll and copy it from that? Also, can we copy spells from other mages in the arena? I mean, a more experienced mage in the arena could offer up some of his spells for copying and such... @ALL - This is the kind of thing that would have to be handled in the role playing thread, but we have touched on characters making money from skills and such. Why not have a Virtual Market Place for the characters? Each character could craft and sell wares as per their skills. Ignatius Crafts a suit of armor. It costs him 1/2 gp and he sells it for 3/4 gp. He just made a little bit. Make items, sell items, repair items, etc. It keeps the money flowing and adds some fun and Real Game functionality to the characters. Special requests could be made and everything would be fun. Wofrse case scenario for the market would be yet another thread, this one titled: Core Arena Market Place. Each character would have a single post to list what is available and what they are looking for. We would have to work off of trust for the whole gold issue but we do that a lot anyway. :) |
| Jindl12-19-03, 01:34 PM | @LL - We discussed this once before and decided not to allow it. You may only add spells to your spellbook from copied scrolls and from normal spellcasting advancement. The cost of buying the scrolls is needed for balance. -Jindl |
| LLMadCow12-19-03, 01:45 PM | Okay. I just wanted to throw that out there. I know it was mentioned before, although briefly, and I thought to bring it up again. Cliodhna is paying for her Scrolls and her copying costs and such. :whatsthis Cliodhna spends this week studying... Edit CL of items. I understand that to make a Wonderous Item, you must have the following: Craft: Wonderous Item, Gold = 7/10 Cost, and meet the CL of the item in question. Now my question is this - how do we determine the CL, in regard to Item Creation, for a character who has multiple Spell Casting classes? Cliodhna has just advanced to Cleric 3 / Wizard 3 and has a total CL of 6. I have poured over the books and I see nothing that says that I cannot combine Caster Levels to get a total CL rating, but then again I see nothing much to say that I should. It is not like items are all Divine or all Arcane. Afterall, some Clerics cast Divine versions of Arcane spells, i.e. - Cliodhna casting Invisibility as a Domain ability. Just looking for clarification. |
| Jedros12-19-03, 01:55 PM | Hi, I'm new to the game and to the boards, having started playing around october with 5-8 others of little to no experience with the game. we spent a lot of time pouring over the books learning the rules and have had a lot of fun in our new DM's homebrew world, with lots of in-party arguments since we have a paladin and cleric of heironious, two rogues and a gray elf wizard (my character). Since I haven't been able to play for a while, being away from school, I've been reading the boards. Since I found this thread I read every single fight in a matter of two days. It was great, except I got so mad when Rito, my favorite character (Go Rito!), lost his match to Bilo in what seemed to be a mistake. Bilo shot him with a scorching ray and rolled a 17, which should have been a miss against his touch AC of 18 but instead hit and killed him in the second round. After having read the rest of the fights I looked back and it may have been that Rito lost his dex bonus because he ran on his last action, but it still is disapointing because Bilo's tactics were to run away and turn invisible if he ever got close... I guess that was a long time ago to you guys. If I can come up with a good strategy and character concept I'll post it soon. Thanks for the entertainment. |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-19-03, 02:35 PM | Originally posted by Jindl EDIT: @ToK - Did Spike make a concentration check to cast while his mount was running? Did Spike take a penalty on his ranged attacks when his mount made more than a single move? Not that it matters, since the fight ended with a Zorander. Just wondering. Spike never ran with mount, nor did he do anything more than a single move. So there was no ranged attack penalty and there were no conc checks needed. He has horshoes of speed (mve 90') and can spur for another 10', hence why the mount took a total of 3 pts of dmg. Tellish |
| SnarkHunter12-19-03, 02:58 PM | Fights finished! (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2125734#post2125734) Hint: The evil character won. @Jed: Yeah that was one of those, oh crap he's screwed points, since given ritos spot/listen, and Bilo's crappy concentration check there was no way he could hide from him. Which meant Bilo died in Rito's grasp...ouch. given that, why not go for the gusto! Anyway, if evil didn't win every once in a while you wouldn't hate it as much :devil:. Edit: and now I'm off to see Return of the King hurrah! |
| MotherBast12-19-03, 04:20 PM | Oh my god. What horrably rotton luck. I'm not going to spoil the outcome, but I will say, the person who won that fight should not have won, and it was pure luck that the winer did so. |
| MotherBast12-19-03, 05:37 PM | Ok, Mara vs. Rito is ran. Both had very simple and strightforward tactics, which I thank both MO and Mag for. It was a very close fight. The two were pretty evenly matched. It sould be posted in an hour or so. |
| Jindl12-19-03, 05:52 PM | Originally posted by SnarkHunter @Jed: Yeah that was one of those, oh crap he's screwed points, since given ritos spot/listen, and Bilo's crappy concentration check there was no way he could hide from him. Which meant Bilo died in Rito's grasp...ouch. given that, why not go for the gusto! Anyway, if evil didn't win every once in a while you wouldn't hate it as much :devil:. Actually I think he is referring to when Rito ran at Bilo, and lost his Dex bonus, and Bilo killed him with a sneak attack scorching ray... You know, when we all learned that you shouldn't ever intentionally lose your Dex bonus to a sneak-attacking wizard... Remember? -Jindl |
| Moherajikuyx12-19-03, 06:05 PM | Originally posted by Jedros [...]I got so mad when Rito, my favorite character (Go Rito!), lost his match [...] :OMG! A Rito fan! :rofl: *Stops joking* Welcome Jedros! Thanks, and, we wait for your (and your friends?) pcs! You're right it was for running. The run feat is good in the arena, it will be Rito's next one... If he manages to get to 9th :D With that feat alone he would have won twice more, already... And in that fight, he would a- not get hit b- not get SAed both of which would have prevented that loss... *Runs to read the fights* *returns* Whoa! Talk about luck! *Edit* Ya Jindl, it was for just 2 hps. And for a Bilo tactics readaptation from the moderator... Unnamed, but it starts with M and ends with gagumo... The surprise was total to anyone else. :behold: Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket Wow, with all the confusion, i just went from running one fight to three....ack! I make no guarantees on story for Hanz/Cridion fight. It may end up being bland and just the facts. Tellish, you're our guinea here. If you say that having to moderate a fight more for the LA+2 thing, I guess we can't but trust you. |
| Caterane12-19-03, 06:16 PM | I still think moding an extra fight for a LA+2 race is far too much. Your character isn`t even better than the rest. Pah, never! So you start at lvl 3, so what? Sooner or later you are there anyway (except a certain german perhaps but I better shut up for if I lose my fight against her I`ll come back incognito with a new account). I`d say we change this and look for another rule. |
| Moherajikuyx12-19-03, 06:43 PM | Originally posted by Caterane (except a certain german perhaps but I better shut up for if I lose my fight against her I`ll come back incognito with a new account) Well, cloning others' tactics would be quite the same... :angel: |
| Mercy12-19-03, 06:44 PM | Regarding the Candessa "Eye Candy" Rain (MotherBast) vs. Zorander Brogaden (Magagumo) fight. I've only received tactics from Mother. Zorander Brogaden doesn't have default tactics. Mag please send your tactics ASAP. |
| MotherBast12-19-03, 07:33 PM | Mara vs. Rito posted. Check it out and I await comments. |
| SnarkHunter12-19-03, 07:45 PM | Wow, cool story I liked it a lot. Only thing I noticed, when Mara finished with the entangle not only was she not stuck to the ground she also wasn't entangled. Nothing huge anyway. |
| Moherajikuyx12-20-03, 04:20 AM | MB, cool story! *Edit coz I was wrong* |
| Prexx12-20-03, 04:34 AM | Very well done fight Tellish. Only error I can see is that I believe Spike has +6 to his ranged attacks (4 bab + 1 dex + 1 masterwork) instead of +7. Not that it would have made any difference in the outcome. I do have one comment though. "Curses! I've been Zorander'd again!":rofl: |
| Moherajikuyx12-20-03, 04:47 AM | SPOILER ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ Only thing I noticed, Rito could have raised while grappling, because Mara doesn't threaten. I'll write in next time. Also, stun attacks weren't used: not a huge difference with that kind of fort save, but still... I shall write everything. *Edit for spoiler alert* |
| Galamdring12-20-03, 05:48 AM | Great story Motherbast... Well done. The way you used the tactics in it... :) I want to thank Rito for a well "Balanced" fight. Anyway, Mara is going to visit her forest parents at her village, and will be out of the tournament for a while... PS: Merry christmas and a happy new year to everyone here at the forums... |
| Caterane12-20-03, 05:58 AM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Uh, we need a pic for the bunnyboy now No problem. After having provided the Arena bunny pic I felt oblieged to provide the Arena Boy too. Hold your breath!! The Arena Bunny Boy!! (http://www.sebastian-sutor.de/poc/pix/g_cat.jpg ) :ayyyy!: |
| Caterane12-20-03, 06:42 AM | Hey ho, just got the Miniatures Handbook. Question: Can you tell me one reason to play a sorcerer instead of a warmage??? Warmage: d6, can cast in light armor (later even medium), gains 5 metamagic feats which he casts as standard actions, can cast same number as sorc but knows ten-times as much This class seems really broken which is strange for it is 3.5. They should`ve learned how to build classes by now and I realized this in less than 1 minute. Perhaps I missed something.... Oh and: must the Warmage find his spells first and copy them into a book or do they already know all spells on their list (like a cleric)? |
| Moherajikuyx12-20-03, 07:06 AM | :mymy: warmage - well then, I'll neither get that book. |
| MotherBast12-20-03, 07:09 AM | Good morning everyone. About Mara vs. Rito. @Snark. Humm.... I should have checked that. I didn't have my PHB at the time, so I was using the SRD, and I didn't look up everything. I had ran tanglefoot bags before, and I remember you could scrape off the glue, but it didn't occur to me that breaking it off when your stuck and when your entangled would be the same thing. @MO. As far as standing after grapple was established. Well, your tactics had said to flurry every time, and you couldn't have flurried if you had used a move equive to stand. Also, you had not penalty to your grapple for being prone, so once in the grapple it seemed best to just flurry, and when not in the grapple it was dangerous to stand. As far as stunning goes, you didn't put it in your tactics, so I just assumed you didn't want to do it. It was not likely to work, but you never know. I almost deceded to just do it, but that would have been unfair to Mara, so I didn't. @Cat. I like the bunnypic. Your sugestions all hit the mark. The final product looks very good. I stongly suggest everyone take a peak at the arena babe, Candy. Its linked on the Gladiators thread. As for my next fight, I'm going to try and run it sunday, but I'll be really really busy all weekend, so It might not get posted till monday night, so please be pasient. A friend of mine is going through a custody battle for his son, and his mother is having brain surgery the same week. I am leaving today to go to the hospital where she is, and then I have to go get $3,000 dollars to pay his lawer.... I hate lawers.... So it could be a while before I see my computer again. |
| LLMadCow12-20-03, 08:05 AM | @Snark - Please see the Roleplay thread. :cool: |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-20-03, 08:26 AM | Harvey Wallbanger vs Bilbo Baggins. Finally finished some of the story with much much editing. The fight itself took like 2 minutes. Enjoy. Tellish. (wow...i guess it would be just my luck for trying to cut/paste bilo's tactics hunh?) that'll learn me. EDIT hey guys there's a FAQ that actually solves something: I can't believe it! What does it solve? Really nothing much added from the last faq. Tellish |
| Moherajikuyx12-20-03, 09:21 AM | Nice fight WinterTok! :) hey guys there's a FAQ (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a) that actually solves something: I can't believe it! :mymy: *Edit* btw, Iron repents and abandons necromancy... |
| Jindl12-20-03, 10:37 AM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket What does it solve? Really nothing much added from the last faq. Well, they stated that you can indeed use ability focus on stunning attacks, death attacks, pretty much anything which has a save DC. They also clarified the scroll-activation-used up issue. Now, if they would only cover mounted combat, and tripping on an AoO caused by the opponent standing up... -Jindl EDIT: @ToK - Tactics received for Faldion vs Hanz. |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-20-03, 10:52 AM | Originally posted by Jindl Well, they stated that you can indeed use ability focus on stunning attacks, death attacks, pretty much anything which has a save DC. They also clarified the scroll-activation-used up issue. Now, if they would only cover mounted combat, and tripping on an AoO caused by the opponent standing up... -Jindl EDIT: @ToK - Tactics received for Faldion vs Hanz. Didn't realize any of that needed clearing up. I always read it that you could use Ability Focus for those things. thx for taking the fight off my hands. Tellish |
| Jindl12-20-03, 10:59 AM | There was some discussion here about it (between Mag and Mo). I think they eventually came to the same understanding as the FAQ, a couple of months before it clarified the issue (good job guys.) RE: Bilo vs Harvester. Doesn't Bilo get another will save on his action in Rnd 1? If he passes that save (which is fairly likely) the Bilo would no longer be helpless when the Harvester charges. Also, even if he is helpless when the charge happens, the Harvester still has to roll to hit (he could miss on a 1 if Bilo is Helpless, or a 1-2 if Bilo is not Helpless). It's a small chance, but the Elder defeated Iron because he rolled a 1 on the charge... -Jindl |
| Caterane12-20-03, 11:21 AM | @Jindl: Bilo has to make his save, Harvester has to miss his spirited charge and Crimson has to fail his grapple. Highly unlikely ...but when I think at the 9% chance of Bruno`s Phantasmal killer... |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-20-03, 11:25 AM | Originally posted by Jindl There was some discussion here about it (between Mag and Mo). I think they eventually came to the same understanding as the FAQ, a couple of months before it clarified the issue (good job guys.) RE: Bilo vs Harvester. Doesn't Bilo get another will save on his action in Rnd 1? If he passes that save (which is fairly likely) the Bilo would no longer be helpless when the Harvester charges. Also, even if he is helpless when the charge happens, the Harvester still has to roll to hit (he could miss on a 1 if Bilo is Helpless, or a 1-2 if Bilo is not Helpless). It's a small chance, but the Elder defeated Iron because he rolled a 1 on the charge... -Jindl You are absolutely correct. I forgot about Bilo's second save, but i did roll the to-hit though. He rolled a 13, i didn't show, cuz i thought it was moot. May bad :( Tellish |
| SnarkHunter12-20-03, 12:35 PM | Ah ha ha ha...ahhhh.... Cool story, I think the fight went just fine. I Knew those will saves of mine would get me someday... Hmm I suppose I could of paid a wizard folk to cast hold person in there. Oh well. |
| Magagumo12-20-03, 01:17 PM | Hoy! Good Mercy chap... *shakes head* Right, Philosophy essays cause my brain much pain, and you much delays it seems. I am hurredly planning them out as I type this here, they should be out in 5 min or so ^_^;; One essay to go and a Christmas performance at church tomorrow.. Hey Snark, they have me playing the angel, Gabriel, and a nasty Demon.. ^_^ Somehow, this doesn't seem too much of a strecth for me ;) |
| Sir Cridion12-20-03, 03:43 PM | Arstimis vs. Pale-Rider posted. Comments and criticism really appreciated. I hope I ran the fight properly according to your tactics, Market and Arstimis. @Arstimis: Btw, you might want to ask if you can recreate your character since you found out that combat reflexes doesn't work the way you thought. 1 feat can make the difference sometimes, and in an arena situation combat reflexes isn't IMO all that great of a choice. |
| Arstimis12-20-03, 04:16 PM | All that work and nothing..hmm.. oh well..time to go back to the drawing boards. Well played Market |
| Jindl12-20-03, 05:52 PM | Peter Patraclus vs Jagath Kihr - posted. 22 rounds and pretty fun to mod. These guys were actually very evenly matched. Hope you enjoy the fight! -Jindl |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-20-03, 06:31 PM | Originally posted by Arstimis All that work and nothing..hmm.. oh well..time to go back to the drawing boards. Oh, trust me, i know how you feel. My very first arena fight, i drank a ton of buffs and used a potion of hide from animals to try and hide from Jindl's familiar (magical beast) and i was waiting to jump out and ambush him....much like what you tried to do. Then i nodded off. Much like what you did. lol. We all learn. Just change his name a little bit and give him back his 1000gp. A lot of ppl actually do this. Personally i've never, but if you have a feat you don't like, then go for it. Also, i've put combat reflexes to decent use once....once. lol But back then summonings were everywhere so there was more than just one opponent to worry about. Tellish |
| Moherajikuyx12-20-03, 07:19 PM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket Didn't realize any of that needed clearing up. I always read it that you could use Ability Focus for those things. Another thing is the druid companions that don't grow with HDs... It could have been, but it is not. |
| SnarkHunter12-20-03, 07:24 PM | Wow, you know Mag most people finish their work before they leave school. ... Okay, okay, but I didn't do that this year! Hoo ha good fights al around. |
| Market_Share12-20-03, 08:18 PM | Originally posted by Arstimis All that work and nothing..hmm.. oh well..time to go back to the drawing boards. Well played Market Sorry laddie, it's a tough world out there. I wasn't sure if the sleep-bomb was going to work. I got a little nervous when i read you disrupted my first one. ACK! It's a good character, i was just expecting you to run all the way to my area and slap the ole' figure four leg lock on me. With monk vs caster you really need to do that asap. 'Tis why i thought for sure i was dead. But, sometimes fate comes in and give ye a helping hand. Good luck in your next match. SPIKE |
| Alterlat12-20-03, 09:47 PM | Oops, I totally forgot about the travel domain effect. It was a very good fight though, and pretty close at the end. Well modded Jindl - glad you enjoyed it. |
| Arstimis12-21-03, 03:11 AM | Originally posted by Market_Share It's a good character, i was just expecting you to run all the way to my area and slap the ole' figure four leg lock on me. With monk vs caster you really need to do that asap. Ya..i was thinking about doing that..but it wasnt very exciting so i decided to try and have fun Edit: I have made my new character. His name is Kiowen Civasion. I just edited my original Arstimis post. |
| Caterane12-21-03, 05:40 AM | If you are sleeping you get a Listen check -10 every round to wake up. This is not all to difficult especially since the opponoment rode in on a horse, both had to make a MS check. |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-21-03, 06:18 AM | Originally posted by Caterane If you are sleeping you get a Listen check -10 every round to wake up. This is not all to difficult especially since the opponoment rode in on a horse, both had to make a MS check. That's only for non-magical sleep. p. 280 PHB, Sleep spell Slapping or wounding awakens an effected creature, but normal noises does not. Tellish |
| Caterane12-21-03, 06:52 AM | Right. @Market: Check your mails... |
| Market_Share12-21-03, 07:44 AM | Yeah, i slept on the couch and when the loud DING! came on and my computer flashed, i kinda woke up. hehe OK then, so the fight is posted. Really thanking the cat-man for the story and background. It's pretty humourous as could be expected. I'll update my guys, but may not be able to send tactics until late Friday. X-MAS!!! YEAH! Now for some more sleep. :zzz: SPIKE |
| Moherajikuyx12-21-03, 07:56 AM | 2x :blush: |
| Moherajikuyx12-21-03, 07:56 AM | Spealing of which: shall we delay for Christmas? |
| LLMadCow12-21-03, 08:06 AM | I do not worry about a delay for Christmas. Some care, and others do not. I do not live with my family and I have to work in the afternoon, so it is just like any other day of the week. I will likely drop in and see my folks prior to going to work to say hi and Merry Christmas. @All of my Jewish friends on the boards - Happy Chanukah! |
| Moherajikuyx12-21-03, 08:21 AM | OK, let's keep going, anyone who can't play or mod shall set his characters as not ready: moderators with no playing characters will be considered "on vacation". About toad vs. prof, we decided time ago to prevent things like destroying opponents' stuff after he's below 0 (except as fluff), so the familiar's not dead. |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-21-03, 08:48 AM | I'll keep Nevrlokagyft active this week, and i can moderate one fight as well. Kelek & Hurtz will sit out. After those horrible rolls i think Kelek needs some time off to re-coup. Good win MB. Tellish |
| Alterlat12-21-03, 09:29 AM | SPOILER FOR TOAD VS. DR. DRE At the end of the fight, was Toad dropped to exactly 0 hp, and if so did he try to heal or anything before getting finished off? |
| SnarkHunter12-21-03, 12:01 PM | One other thing, the prof had to many 0th level spells. You don't get bonus 0 spells for a high int and all... |
| LLMadCow12-21-03, 12:22 PM | @Snark - Please see the Role Play Thread. Thanks. |
| Irlina12-21-03, 12:30 PM | Well we should include a limit for the length of a tactic. Anyway, congrats Cat! And congrats to Market Share well done! And next time I'll simply take an expert hider, wait for round 1722 till all spells have expired. Cowardly runners ;) But I learned that I hate many spell scrolls on openent sides. You simply can't predict tactics! Some minor points (dont have my rules here so cant really start :censored::censored::censored::censored: :censored:ing): IMHO it's better to include the participants than just setting links to see the development better. Too many 0 grade spells? Don't know (no rules). Too many 1st grade spells in your spellbook? (11 spells, should only have 9 from 1+2nd level.) But don't know sure (no rules here ;) ) Round 20: Prof should have to make concentration check to recast shield. Toad changed 1 healing spell too much (can't convert domain spells). Dwarf bonus on save versus spells is forgotten (fort save vs. spells is +8). Nothing serious. |
| Magagumo12-21-03, 12:50 PM | The big shocker from the FAQ for me was the Manyshot+ Shot on the Run. I was kinda planning on that for Zorander, but I don't believe it will be a shattering effect on the character (I can't really compensate for the penalty to my rolls, one of my players who was going to combine the above feats with True Strike might be a bit dissapointed though ;)). Ah well, always glad for the clearing of confusion. NOw, if I could only hear the justification for allowing a 50 gp potion to stop the 17th level druid's elder elemental.. I'll be very happy (High SMs have SR, which I think allows them to break through the barrier, so the CR 13 summons still snaps the 1st lvl cleric like a twig). Ah well, back to work I go... essay's still due and all ^_~ |
| Mercy12-21-03, 12:51 PM | Candessa vs. Zorander done. I don't think I made any major mistakes, but let know. |
| Magagumo12-21-03, 01:06 PM | Very well run Mercy. Only mistake I saw is that you added 2 damage to each of Zorander's attacks, when the +1 enchanted bow now deals +3. Not huge, it totaled up to about 7 damage in the end I think (She was always above that till the end I think). Anythng else I saw was truly inconsequential (an unlisted amount fo damage towards the end, when Zorander hit twice. And Candy's 2x move to escape the entangle and hide would have incurred a -20 to her hide and Move silent checks). |
| Wizard12-21-03, 01:08 PM | I'm willing to mod. Just drop me a pm. |
| Moherajikuyx12-21-03, 01:45 PM | OK, I'm noting on the roster all the offers & requests for the next week already. |
| barrel_master12-21-03, 02:32 PM | I'm gonna only have 1 char active next week. Again, if you really need another mod give me 1 fight. |
| SnarkHunter12-21-03, 03:23 PM | @Mercy: It takes a standard action to sing or concentrate on signing so Candy couldn't have done that and fought at the same time. What she could do was sing then stop and fight because it lasts for a number of rounds after she stops so, it didn't really impact fight-just for future fights FYI. @Mo: I'm going to wait till I get Hanz's results but I'll most likely only have one contestant this coming week. @Everyone: Final tally of Good vs. Evil fight (looks like its going to be huge actually) will be posted tonight! |
| Arstimis12-21-03, 04:27 PM | Could someone take a look at my character to see if everything is correct. Im not sure about the scrolls. And if i cast enlarge on myself, would that also effect my familiar |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-21-03, 04:56 PM | Originally posted by Arstimis Could someone take a look at my character to see if everything is correct. Im not sure about the scrolls. And if i cast enlarge on myself, would that also effect my familiar Looks ok. But you only need to mem 1 cantrip and 1 1st lvl spell for pre-mem. It's half, rounded down. As for the enlarge affecting your familiar, yes...as long as it's not from the scroll. @Wizard: I had a peek at your guy while i was at it. Your will saves should be +5 (+3 base, +2 wis), and you can add one more spell in your first level spell book unless i miss-counted. 3base+3int+2 for lvl 2. Also, you only need to pre-mem half rounded down as well. So only 2 0's, and 1 1st. Tellish |
| LLMadCow12-21-03, 05:09 PM | Most D&D world settings don't have "Christmas" as such, but I'd like to point out to mods that a bit of fun could be had in the fight flavor-text concerning "the holidays." I think it could be amussing. |
| Mercy12-21-03, 05:29 PM | @Mag - I must of mis-read your bow, I thouht the +1 Mw and [+2] meant that it was a masterwork +2 str bow. @Snark - I hadn't played bardic music before, so I looked it up. The PHB states that "Starting a bardic music effect is a standard action. Some bardic music abilities require concentration, which means the bard must take a standard action each round to maintain the ability." Since the Inspire Courage section didn't mention the requirement to maintain concentration, I thought it was an ability that didn't require a standard action to maintain once started. Is it listed somewhere which bardic songs require concentration and which don't? |
| MotherBast12-21-03, 06:16 PM | I'm back. @Tellish, thanks, but it wasen't really. I should have lost, and it was only due to your bad luck I didn't. @Mercy, your right. To start the song is a standerd action, but after that its not, I can maintain it for as long as I like without using actions, unless I break the song to cast a spell or someting similar, in which case it would still last 5 more rounds. Long enough for me to start singing again. [Edit] A few notes. Candy lost three in a row at level 5, so I'm going to take the level bump with her, putting her at 6th. I will update her and Brackin later to night. Also, I ran the Faffle vs. Krak fight today. It didn't go at all how I expected, very short and bloody. I wasen't going to post it tonight due to lack of time, but since its only 3 rounds, I'll just post a quick round by round without commentary. |
| Tharkos12-21-03, 08:13 PM | First of I have to say that I am completely new to this method of using the rules, but I have always liked mind games and theoretic stuff. Due to the fact that the post is quite long and probably the fact even the 3.5 rules arent 100% precise there are several questions which have formed in my mind and I would like an answer to them please before putting too much work into some ideas .... 1) I know how level advancement works and about the penalty for multiclass advancement. How are the XP costs for item creation feats and spells figured into this ? Disregarding them seems a bit unbalancing in favor of spellcasters due to the already reduced price for magic items. 2) The rules in the PHB concerning masterwork items arent that good and they just have "masterwork tools" in the list for a flat fee of 50 gp. This sounds like an oversight to me, but there are skills which dont exactly use "tools" but could easily have good or bad equipment for the job (Camouflage gear for hide compared to Hawaii-shirt and bright red shorts ...). Are you using masterwork stuff just for "tool dependant skills" then or others as well ? Sounds a bit unfair to me again ... 3) How are fights done ? Is it just the moderator "judging it" according to the tactics the participants have given him and he essentially "plays against himself" ? 4) How is Charm Person handled ? Is it strong enough to create a "time out" to continue the fight later ? 5) I find it a bit bad to only have an open arena. Since this includes larger and smaller races and even races that have Darkvision I would think some areas which favor these skills should exist, i.e. a cave. The same might be true for swimming ..., i.e. a lake. Otherwise it favors those characters that can fly a lot more over those that can swim or work well underground. Maybe I overlooked some rules concerning this but it seems a bit "narrow minded" on the conditions. What about the weather conditions in the arena ? Always sunny day with bright light, or is it dark and/or stormy weather there sometimes ? These conditions are part of an adventurers life and doing a fight without having to consider them is kinda moot IMO. |
| MotherBast12-21-03, 08:13 PM | Ok, I updated Candy. Make note, she took leadership, and has a cohort. I was going by what MO said, that any LA adjustment creature in the MM could be a cohort. Only creature I could find in the MM that actually qualified as being ECL 4, and that was alignment friendly with Candy was a Krenshar, so Candy has one. |
| Jindl12-21-03, 08:25 PM | @MotherBast - Be aware that if your cohort dies, you may suffer the -2 penalty to your leadership score for recruiting future cohorts. That being said, you may want to wait a couple of levels before actually acquiring the cohort. There are many more decent choices at ECL 6 (like a blink dog, or a centaur, or ... lots of other things). ********************** Question: Is polymorph subject to size limitations? Is polymorph any object subject to size limitations? Is polymorph any object subject to HD limitations? What do you guys think (I am pondering this for a character build ...) -Jindl |
| MotherBast12-21-03, 08:40 PM | Yeah, I know. Even with -2 Candy could still get a toped out companion. 6 is going to be a really tough level for her, and a little help might be just what she needs to get past it. I can always leave Kitty at home if I think he could be at risk in the fight. |
| MotherBast12-21-03, 08:46 PM | And about Poly, it would seem the spell limits you to = Fine or <, but no other size limits. Poly any object would use the same size limits, as it is = to Polymorph. Alter Self sets limits of one greater or higher, but dosen't give a minimum or maximum size. Poly is like alter except where noted, so I would say since it says Fine or greater in size, then it isen't limited the way Alter Self is. |
| SnarkHunter12-21-03, 09:23 PM | @Thakros: Ah I do like itemized question lists,they do make everything seem so proper 1. Xp costs for items is figured into the final cost paid for the item, 7/10ths of the listed cost in the DMG. This is of couse more then the 1/2 it would be in the campaign but meshes well with the 5gp per xp system the arena uses. A Lesser planar ally spell (100xp) would cost instead 500gp to cast (in addition to the cost of service for the ally). Non magic items cost 1/2 the listed price and you must have the craft skill at an appropriate rate to use it. 2. It depends I suppose. I had thought originally we were only using tools listed in the PG (artisans and the like) until I noticed people also had masterwork Animal handler whistels and what not. I would still say that Masterwork Hide or Move silently tools are a might unreasonable. 3. Quite so. Except in a very limited degree the moderator is not allowed to improvise from the tactics given (which is one reason contestants are quite explicit in what situations to use what tactics) and so outcomes are decided on the strength of the characters the tactics and the die role s(in that order ;)). 4. I belive it is handled by ignoring it :D. The best method so far of getting a time out as been using rope trick to buff for 10 rounds. If you have a another method (including conviebly a suggestion spell) be warned that after 10 rounds without combat of anysort you will forfiet the match. 5. This had in fact been discussed a looooooong time ago (around paage 30 by this point I would imagine) and we decided against changing the arena around. Ces't la vie. The arena remains distinc from the adventurers life but is quiet good fun it is own way. @Contestants Based on entries in the RP thread we have the following participants Good: Skymoon Moonbow 9th level Faldion Oathgaurd 6th Cliodhna d'Elrich 6th Sir Roger 4th Dusk the Adament 3rd Ebelin? 9th level Average level: 5th (6th w/ Ebelin), total level 31st(40) Evil Bruno Willikins 9th Bilo Darkleaf 8th Kelek? 7th Harvester? 9th Average level 8th (or 8th with Kelek, or 8 with kelek and harvester) total level: 17 (24 and 33) As it stands the ranks are a wee bit unbalanced :). I have a few requests, I was hoping Caterane could adjucate this deviltry...unless we were going to try some sort of kooky round by round posting thing ( I really should see how they do it on those other boards). But if he does decide to join I hope it will just be w/ harvester (scaring the pants off Bilo :devil:) otherwise we get a bit skewed. If not him then at least Tellish I hope you will consent to have Kelek join forces with Bilo just this one time. Other then that (and assuming no more paladins advance this week :rolleyes: I think were good. Good's got the numbers but evil has experiance. Anyone I missed just let me know! |
| LLMadCow12-21-03, 10:57 PM | Well, I have several thoughts in regard to the combat of good vs evil... Determining level: Why not use the CR system and add the parties up in this manner? Compare that. Equipment: Give a comparable gold amount to each party, for this exhibition match only, to completely re-equip themselves from the ground up. EVERYTHING is taken into account and the two parties can decided how they wish to divide their gold. The parties can divide the gold equally, or they can decide to equip a few people with the bare minimum and equip one as a champion to withstand the battle. Balance: More thoughts later... |
| Tharkos12-22-03, 02:57 AM | Thanks for those answers SnarkHunter and it shows the limited usefulness of this "Simulation" to check a character concept. 1. This favors Wizards heavily IMO since they still get the items cheaper than in the lists but advance at the same speed. There isnt even any limit set for the amount of XP one character could "spend" for this at any given time so someone might use sufficient XPs to drop him a level or two behind over time. 2. Too bad, I was thinking more in the lines of a "masterwork diplomacy dress" (or perfume and such) for a charisma based character. In roleplaying that might work. My "sneak around character concept" wouldnt need camo gear, because there are too many rather cheap items giving you +10 on that skill but there are none in the books to give a bonus on diplomacy (or I have overlooked them). 3. Got it. 4. Too bad as well ... although I wouldnt want to use the "time of peace" for buffing. Think about a CHA 20+ sorceress inviting the opponent over for a small dinner "before we find out who is strongest / smartest / ..." and of course some poisoned food. See also 2. 5. The simple solution might be some "random weather conditions" (day/night, wind/no wind, rain/no rain) to prevent "ye ole flying Wizard" from becoming the strongest character type later on. I read some posts complaining about how casters make up most of the top level players already and I believe that shows why. You wouldnt have to change the arena layout if you just used weather. As it is now there is only a limited amount of choices which are useful in this "simulation" and I find that rather disappointing: - Wizards have a huge advantage due to item creation and their bonus feats, - every class that can fly / walk on air has an advantage, - races which have some advantages in the dark (Darkvision) effectively have no chance to use this to their advantage since even Darkness negates that. I could come up with a "hide forever" character design which would have heavy boni on hide skill and use a ring of sustenance to practically starve casters to death who didnt come with enough food or who cant create their own or at least wait till the other one has fallen asleep. This would be highly useless anywhere except this arena. |
| Wizard12-22-03, 03:10 AM | For number 1, wizards are then giving up one or more feats for the privelege, which could otherwise be spent on other neat stuff. Balance, IMO, is preserved. |
| Tharkos12-22-03, 04:17 AM | Originally posted by Wizard For number 1, wizards are then giving up one or more feats for the privelege, which could otherwise be spent on other neat stuff. Balance, IMO, is preserved. Not really, because they can "theoretically" have 30% more equipment than others due to lower prices but without any level loss. Given their already superior flexibility (due to the fact they can "theoretically" have all spells on the list) they also get an additional amount of firepower / defense. Not fair IMO. Just think about the really high levels where you get 100.000+ gold each time you advance. I havent calculated it, but there are probably items which could actually cost you more XP than one level to create. The Wizard gets to stay at his level though. And the reason I mentioned Wizards is because they get bonus feats. Lets face it, there are only a limited number of feats which are useful to a pure wizard, i.e. dodge and ???? This means all of the bonus feats AND their regular feats can go to either metamagic or item creation ... because spellbook stealing isnt possible even spell mastery isnt necessary. |
| Wizard12-22-03, 04:29 AM | It would actually be an advantage for a wizard to drop a level in the Arena, since one fights other gladiators of equal level. If you were playing that wizard, would you rather fight 16th level opponents when you had a nice item or 17th level opponents when you had a nice item? |
| Tharkos12-22-03, 04:44 AM | Not unless you actually drop him a level but treat him according to the amount of gold he has (i.e. his undropped level) like it works for races with HD adjustment (Aasimar, ...). |
| Moherajikuyx12-22-03, 05:05 AM | Welcome Tharkos! Why don't you try out your flying wizard? Actually there's only two of them in the top levels now, and they got stomped some times. Even while flying... :D About the tools, I think that if you come out with a reasonable tool, it's ok. If we want we can limit it to mw versions of existing tools only though. |
| Irlina12-22-03, 06:20 AM | Won't be here for the next 2 weeks, so make my chars inactive. I know they would be bumped after loosing 3 times, but I want to win my fights the "honest" way, at least once ;) |
| Irlina12-22-03, 06:27 AM | Oh, and one more idea for higher ECL levels. I don't think it really encourages a mod to take creatures of higher base level, if they need to make an additional fight every week for it. Since many mods have lots of credits, why don't we simply allow them to change them for more interesting creatures? Suggestion: 2 credits can be exchanged for one higher level adjustment. So for example with 6 credits a mod can take 3 extra levels to start with a level 2 / 3 (level adjust+bhd) creature. Perhaps this is more fair since you only have to pay once! (but still must pay not little) And of course this still counts a normal pc so they have to mod fights for more than 1 character. |
| Moherajikuyx12-22-03, 07:29 AM | It's an interesting proposal, it actually makes the mods pay before than after, but only once. I agree with it. Anyone else? Tomar vs. Hurtz posted... Quite boring, I don't have the will to write a story now. And I'm hungry and going to eat :) *Edit* Lora, MadCowTemplate vs. Nevrlokagyft, Tellish_of_Ket posted. A ridiculous fight: mounts on strike! |
| Jindl12-22-03, 09:41 AM | Grrr.... double post |
| Jindl12-22-03, 09:41 AM | Re: Tomar vs Hurtz A couple of mistakes which may have an impact on the fight: 1. Mage armor doesn't add to touch AC. Tomar should have hit 2 or 3 times during rounds 6 and 7. There are a couple of other incorrect misses where he tried to trip him later. 2. Wielding a bow takes two hands. Using deflect arrows requires one hand. The only way to do both is to have quick draw, or spend a free action dropping one hand off the bow and a move action (before firing) putting the hand back on the bow next turn. Since Hurtz doesn't have quickdraw, then he either must give up his deflect arrows, or only take single shots each round. Since he took multiple shots, then he should not have deflected the 3 arrows which would have hit him. All told, I think KerlanRayne could make a decent case for an error point... -Jindl |
| Jindl12-22-03, 09:41 AM | @Mo - ToK sent me the tactics for Faldion vs Hanz. Please change the roster to list me as the moderator, and ... can I have another credit :D Re: The credit = currency proposal for buying higher ECL monsters...er gladiators, perhaps 3 credits per bump in ECL. We don't want it to be too cheap ! Plus, this keeps it in line with the 3 losses = a bump idea. So, you mod 3 extra fights, and you can start a character with 1 level of bumping (meaning you could have a Human Ftr 3, or a Drow Ftr 1). What do you guys think? -Jindl |
| Pitlords12-22-03, 10:14 AM | uff |
| Moherajikuyx12-22-03, 10:21 AM | Credit given. Darn, you're right about the trip attack, I robbed Tomar of three or four hit-with-20 attacks, my bad. Can you post some reference about the "mov action to hold a weapon"? I think it's a free action, when the weapon's already held by the other hand, based on the possibility to rapid shoting with two daggers when not skilled at two weapon fighting. |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-22-03, 11:18 AM | I don't think those arrows would have hit me, here's how it works. Since i didn't have a +6 bab, i don't need to worry about using the full attack action to shoot. So i shoot, let go of bow with one hand (free). Next round, draw my bow as part of my move, fire, let go of bow with one hand. Now even with that, which makes it legit, i'm not sure that i need a move action to put my second hand on the weapon. I think it's a free action, but then again, i'm not entirely 100% sure on that matter. Tellish |
| Jindl12-22-03, 11:19 AM | If you are holding a bow with one hand, then it is not ready to wield, ie. it is not drawn. Drawing a weapon is a move action, unless you have quickdraw. Rapid shot assumes using the same hand. Two weapon fighting assumes throwing things with different hands. So you cannot rapid shot with thrown weapons without quickdraw. You can make a twf with thrown weapons without quickdraw, but you had to spend a move action (last round) in order to draw both weapons. If you have rapid shot+twf+quickdraw, then you can draw all 3 daggers, and throw all 3 daggers in the same round, albeit at a -4 penalty to hit (-2 from rapid and -2 from twf). -Jindl EDIT: @ ToK - I said in my post above that you can deflect arrows while wielding a two handed weapon, but you only get a standard attack each round. Mo had you making a rapid shot each round, and that is the mistake. So either you deflect an arrow and only fire once, or you don't deflect arrows and you can rapid shot. Quickdraw would allow you to do both. |
| Moherajikuyx12-22-03, 11:34 AM | Yes you already told that... I asked for any rules quote, regarding the move hand thing. A held weapon is not sheathed, even if it's a 2hw held in 1 hand. |
| Ethendril12-22-03, 12:16 PM | Drawing a weapon is a move action, unless you have quickdraw. Or if you have a BAB of +1 or higher. Pg. 141 of the 3.5 PHB, footnote 4 states that "If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you can combine one of these actions [draw weapon or other simple action] with a regular move. Maybe I misunderstand your argument, but I think Tellish is right when he says this: Next round, draw my bow as part of my move, fire, let go of bow with one hand. The key here is "draw my bow as part of my move." Ethendril |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-22-03, 12:40 PM | Originally posted by Jindl EDIT: @ ToK - I said in my post above that you can deflect arrows while wielding a two handed weapon, but you only get a standard attack each round. Mo had you making a rapid shot each round, and that is the mistake. So either you deflect an arrow and only fire once, or you don't deflect arrows and you can rapid shot. Quickdraw would allow you to do both. As soon as you said that i panicked a bit. Rapid shot? Ack! I hope not, i don't even have the feat. Then i went back to look quickly re-read the end of the fight and i am only taking single shots, phew! Tomar is the one making full attack actions with his bow. He's got the +6 bab. phew! for a second there... Tellish |
| Jindl12-22-03, 12:47 PM | Originally posted by Ethendril Maybe I misunderstand your argument, but I think Tellish is right when he says this: "Next round, draw my bow as part of my move, fire, let go of bow with one hand." The key here is "draw my bow as part of my move." Ethendril I agree that he can do this every round. But this limits him to a standard attack. In the fight, he was using Rapid Shot, which requires a full attack. So my point is that you cannot use Rapid Shot (or any full attack action with a two handed weapon) and Deflect arrows at the same time, without the Quickdraw feat. Because, it takes a move action (or a free action combined with a move action) in order to re-draw the bow after you deflect arrows. @Mo - I read this rule about re-drawing two handed weapons in the FAQ. I'll try to find where. Basically, it was saying: My wizard has a quarterstaff. He moves 30 feet, drops his hand off the quarterstaff (free action), and holds the staff in one hand in order to cast a spell (which requires one hand free for somatic components). After the spell is completed (a standard action), his turn is over. An opponent within his reach draws an AoO for ... (standing up from prone, picking up a weapon, casting a spell, moving through his reach, whatever). Does the wizard get to make an AoO with his staff? The answer was no, because the wizard was not wielding his staff. He only had 1 hand on it. It takes a move action to put his hand back on the staff. Anyway, that's what the FAQ said, and it translates directly to this issue with the bow and deflect arrows. -Jindl EDIT: Doh !!! Thanks for pointing that out, ToK. Hurtz was making single shots, so the deflect arrows was legal. I somehow was thinking they both were making two shots a round. So, the only mistake was adding mage armor to the touch AC. My fault for thinking there was another mistake. But the stuff about taking a move action to re-draw the bow is correct. All of the arrows Hurtz fired were standard action attacks, after he spent a move action to re-draw his bow. After the firing, he dropped one hand off the bow (free action) to be ready to deflect, as you said. Note: if Tomar had elected to ready a shot for when you put both hands on the bow, then you couldn't have deflected his arrows, but he wouldn't have been able to rapid shot either. Again, sorry for the misunderstanding (don't know where I got the idea that Hurtz was firing two arrows a round !?!) |
| Magagumo12-22-03, 01:05 PM | *Angelic Chorus* Freedom from the tyranny of philosophy :D Ok, anyways.. :embarrass: Hmm, that's an interesting debate on holding weapons (when you can switch hands and such). I had always gathered that it was a free action to switch hands (such as when Npir used to drink a potion then switch back to 2-hands on the longsword), but it makes sense that once you have used your move and standard, your turn's done. So, if you need to switch hands after an attack, I suppose you'll need to to have moev left afterward (don't move, or use Spring Attack/Shot on the Run). As for the three credist going towards higher ECl, I'm all for it!! I've been waiting to try some neat ideas, but I simply don't have the time to run that many fights each week. Glad to see Hold Person was resolved back there, as I have been led to understand that mental actions were possible, so its good when you have that stilled/silent (no moving mouth) spell prepared... or that silent Dimension Door :-D <--- Best way to escape a grapple, just add a tricky concenctration check :) Last notes, on Leadership, since we are not allowing class levels for our cohorts, and since a monster which adds more HD is generally screwed under the ECL system, I suggest we allow free upgrade on cohorts, so Candy can pick up a better one as she goes. Otherwise, that Krenshar is going to become real ineffective, real fast, and I don't want to think MB wasted a feat. Agreeing with Snark, we need you Harvester and Kelek :), though I still think Turkish and Tony can handle our pally friends, and Tommy's got a bone to pick with Ebelin ;), we need a few more intelligent fighters.. just in case that feeblemind starts getting tossed about ;) *Shudder* |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-22-03, 01:28 PM | Originally posted by Magagumo Glad to see Hold Person was resolved back there, as I have been led to understand that mental actions were possible, so its good when you have that stilled/silent (no moving mouth) spell prepared... or that silent Dimension Door :-D <--- Best way to escape a grapple, just add a tricky concenctration check :) Agreeing with Snark, we need you Harvester and Kelek :), though I still think Turkish and Tony can handle our pally friends, and Tommy's got a bone to pick with Ebelin ;), we need a few more intelligent fighters.. just in case that feeblemind starts getting tossed about ;) *Shudder* I am in for sure. I will team up on a temporary truce with Bilo to unite and defeat the forces of good. I'm still upset with him for spilling that alcohol on my scroll of improved invis so that i couldn't read the last few lines and messing it up for me, but hey. I can always get back at him later. Eventually. Plus Brackin is evil, can we not recuit Brackin or is he already in? lol As for the Hold Person thing, you forgoe all your actions, so even the still/silent spell wouldn't work. Hold person specifically says you cannot take any actions. I'm afraid i'd still consider still/silent spells actions. @Jindl - :D no probs. Plus who knows what reprecussions the extra non-critical hits would have done, might have forced me to back off to heal sooner and waste his critical. Tough to say, but yeah, sometimes ya feel bad about a win because of even the smallest of things. On the debate of switching hands with your weapons. It IS a free action to switch hands, but not a free action to ready it for use. If i want to use my longsword in my left hand instead of my right, it's free. I can still attack with it. Silly as it sounds, and unless it's for easthetic reasons, i don't know why you would want to. That topic is an age old topic from the rules-monkeys site that i frequent and was heavily HEAVILY debated. The original problem came from 3.0 with two-weapon/ambi and off-hand/main hand. It was all simplified now with 3.5 (thank goodness). Two-handed weapons don't work that way though as Jindl was pointing out. That's why i believe the ftr/mnk combo works really well. I can have a great advantage with reach weapons and martial weapon proficiencies and threaten at both reach with the weapon and at base with my unarmed because it was clarified that unarmed attacks come from all parts of the body. Anyhow, suffice to say for you one handed weilders you can switch hands with your weapon at anytime (why though you would need to i have no idea), but don't try the same with two-handed without quickdraw or improved unarmed strike. Tellish |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-22-03, 01:35 PM | Question: If i buy a sword +1 (for example) and then a few lvl's later i want a sword +1, flaming. Do i just pay the difference between the two or do i need to sell the old and buy the new? Tellish Originally posted by Jindl You may upgrade magic items within the rules by paying the difference in cost. This is true whether you are upgrading a +1 longsword to add flaming, or upgrading an amulet of natural armor +2 to a +3. -Jindl OMG! hehe...didn't know it also applied to magic items. I've been saving up for a cloak of resistance +3 for Hurtz because i didn't want to lose the money for just a +1. LOL K, thx Jindl Tellish |
| Jindl12-22-03, 01:44 PM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket If i buy a sword +1 (for example) and then a few lvl's later i want a sword +1, flaming. Do i just pay the difference between the two or do i need to sell the old and buy the new? You may upgrade magic items within the rules by paying the difference in cost. This is true whether you are upgrading a +1 longsword to add flaming, or upgrading an amulet of natural armor +2 to a +3. -Jindl |
| MotherBast12-22-03, 03:51 PM | Concerning cohorts, I didn't see anything about prices for them, so Candy didn't pay for hers. Also, I didn't see anything prohibiting the dismissal of a cohort, and hiring of another, so Candy plans to upgrade cohorts whenever possible. Am I missing anything that would prohibit this? |
| Caterane12-22-03, 04:02 PM | Hi all, I`m back well, wasn`t away but my computer had a virus. Can anyone give me an update on the latest events here? Question: In my campaign my necro wants to craft a headband of intellect+6 but Transmutation is his prohibited school. Any ideas? How much is the fish? |
| Jindl12-22-03, 04:22 PM | Okay - Faldion vs Hanz is posted. (Tactics kinda broke down, and the mod was left trying to figure out what to do next...) Now, off to read how Iku Rex fared against Dusk the Adamant. -Jindl |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-22-03, 04:28 PM | Originally posted by Caterane Question: In my campaign my necro wants to craft a headband of intellect+6 but Transmutation is his prohibited school. Any ideas? How much is the fish? Do you have any ranks in UMD? Or better still does the party rogue do? Nothing says you have to be the one casting the fox's cunning in it right? I could be wrong. @Jindl - good win, nice tactics. As i was reading though, i was waiting for the true strike to come and finish you off, but it never did. I guess we both got lucky today. :D Tellish |
| Jindl12-22-03, 04:39 PM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket @Jindl - good win, nice tactics. As i was reading though, i was waiting for the true strike to come and finish you off, but it never did. I guess we both got lucky today. :D Well, with his listen at a +0 (because he left his familiar at home), he couldn't pinpoint me even when I was spellcasting, due to the distance modifier. So, even though True Strike would ignore the concealment from invisibility, he didn't know which square to target. Even so, if I had done less than 4 points of Cha damage with the Touch of Idiocy, he could have finished me off later. All-in-all it was a tough fight, and Iku is lucky to have won it. Paladins are always tough opponents. -Jindl |
| Ethendril12-22-03, 04:50 PM | Good win, Jindl. I was even able to prepare all my buys against you (because you challenged me before I leveled my character). Good call on Touch of Idiocy. I feel like such an idiot for letting you get me like that. Well, with his listen at a +0 (because he left his familiar at home. My tactics say my familiar is in my backpack (which is equiped). Do I need to specify something else to bring him with me? Ethendril |
| Jindl12-22-03, 04:56 PM | Originally posted by Ethendril My tactics say my familiar is in my backpack (which is equiped). Do I need to specify something else to bring him with me? Ethendril You can only bring one ally into the arena. Since you brought your warhorse, that means your familiar remains at home. -Jindl |
| Ethendril12-22-03, 05:02 PM | You can only bring one ally into the arena. Since you brought your warhorse, that means your familiar remains at home. Thanks. |
| Tharkos12-22-03, 05:04 PM | While looking at some of the characters I think I found a slight problem with some of them ... the "pet" of the harvester (but other skellie / zombie pets apply as well): Crimson sunrise [translated from draconic] Race: Red Dragon Zombie (very young) Large undead (dragon, fire) neutral evil Statistics: STR....23 (+6) DEX....08 (-1) CON....-- (+0) INT.....-- (+0) WIS....10 (+0) Cha.....01 (-5) Hitpoints:.......168 (20Hd) [148 + 20 (descecrate)] Bab/Grp:.......+10/+20 Movement:.....40' , Fly 150' (clumsy) Space/Reach:....10ft/5ft; Bite 10ft Initiative:.......+0 Armor Class:...24 (touch 8, flat 24, both 8) [-1size,+12natural,-1dex,+4armor] Saves: For +6 Ref +6 Will +12 From all of this I assume you used Animate Dead to create this creature, but there are several questions that have come to my mind: 1. Where did you find that freshly slain body and how much did that cost you ? If the body cost nothing I would wonder why, because dead dragons dont lie around this much and it sounds a bit .... pardon the expression ... munchkinny to me. Kinda like "no cost in the books so it doesnt cost anything." Even at level 9 you wouldnt be able to kill one of these singlehandedly (or was there a fight in the arena ???) 2. Desecrate does NOT double the HD of a creature animated but it rather doubles the total amount of HD you can create. You dont get BETTER but rather MORE creatures through the spell. It only adds 1 hp per regular HD of the creature and a very young red dragon has 10 HD, so this monster should be 10 HD + 10 hit points. This should drop the hit points of the creature to a reasonable amount. 3. Where did you find an Onyx worth 500 gp to cast Animate dead on a 20 HD creature ? The DMG lists Onyxes in the "2d4*10 gp" category, which would give a maximum of 80 gp or a maximum of a 3 HD creature for Animate Dead. It needs to be a SINGLE ONYX per animated creature. Several characters are necromancy based, but that only seems to work if you ignore the total lack of high priced Onyxes and the need to get the body of a high HD creature from somewhere. Maybe you already have rulings concerning all of these problems, but I wondered as to why an 8th level character could even control a 20 HD creature, even one as mindless as a Zombie. Normally you can "take over" only creatures which have half your cleric level and the discrepancy between 20 HD and 3 HD (for a 7th level cleric) is a bit large IMO. Problems 1 and 3 also apply to: - Bruno Wilikens (Cloud Giant AND ??? Fire Giant Skeletons ... ) |
| Tharkos12-22-03, 05:18 PM | Originally posted by MotherBast Concerning cohorts, I didn't see anything about prices for them, so Candy didn't pay for hers. Also, I didn't see anything prohibiting the dismissal of a cohort, and hiring of another, so Candy plans to upgrade cohorts whenever possible. Am I missing anything that would prohibit this? Sounds like a free ride for abuse to me, but since I am not taking part (yet) in these battles feel free to ignore my opinion. It sounds a little unrealistic from a roleplaying standpoint, but since these are just "battles for the battles sake" you could do it. If anybody gets sufficient ranks in Diplomacy he/she could "persuade" people to take part in these fights for free then, right ? There is no cost given for this and so I could do it if I tried ? I also voiced my concerns about the big-HD skeltons/zombies which several necromantically inclined characters have (see the post above). If those cost nothing then getting and changing of cohorts shouldnt cost anything. IMO undead bodies should cost and you should be required to stick with your cohort. |
| Moherajikuyx12-22-03, 05:18 PM | Welcome back Cat! The usual things, some rants some errors but mainly a lot of fun! Don't know when you left, we are allowing leadership cohorts, but not with class levels. As the magic items, that can be upgraded, the cohorts can be changed with no effort here, in the Core Arena: because we're true and pure and with no role fluff! You might want to check out old Iron, who, strange enough, repented and went back to the woods of the ancient age, (+1 barb level!) abandoning necromancy and deciding for an animal friend, for how weaker it could be. Sepaking of which, with leadership allowed things changed, and without my conflitto d'interessi, I think I can suggest to make the corpses free: it balances out, and means less rules. It's also balanced with druids and paladins, who don't have to pay anithyng for dire bats and pegasi. Anyone feels it's a bad idea? And today's lesson is... So, kids, try to be kind if your little friend tells something wrong, don't be pushy even if by chance you happen to be convinced of being right, because next time he will behave like you: how do you want to be addressed? Gnight! |
| Jindl12-22-03, 05:19 PM | Originally posted by Tharkos 1. Where did you find that freshly slain body and how much did that cost you ? If the body cost nothing I would wonder why, because dead dragons dont lie around this much and it sounds a bit .... pardon the expression ... munchkinny to me. Kinda like "no cost in the books so it doesnt cost anything." Even at level 9 you wouldnt be able to kill one of these singlehandedly (or was there a fight in the arena ???) The arena has voted on what the cost should be. I think the result is that the cost for bodies ready to animate shall be (Caster's ECL - monster's CR)^2 * 100 gp. Since Crimson Sunrise is a CR 5 creature, and the Harvester acquired him at ECL 6, the cost for the body is zero. And I have no doubt that the Harvester at level 6 could slay a CR 5 creature to acquire its corpse in a real campaign, so I think this is fine. Originally posted by Tharkos 2. Desecrate does NOT double the HD of a creature animated but it rather doubles the total amount of HD you can create. You dont get BETTER but rather MORE creatures through the spell. It only adds 1 hp per regular HD of the creature and a very young red dragon has 10 HD, so this monster should be 10 HD + 10 hit points. This should drop the hit points of the creature to a reasonable amount. Please re-read the zombie template. When a creature becomes a zombie, its racial hit dice are doubled. So, Crimson's HD becomes 20. The desecrate gives an extra hp per HD, so the final is 20d12+20, which is exactly what Cat has written. Originally posted by Tharkos 3. Where did you find an Onyx worth 500 gp to cast Animate dead on a 20 HD creature ? The DMG lists Onyxes in the "2d4*10 gp" category, which would give a maximum of 80 gp or a maximum of a 3 HD creature for Animate Dead. Do you really believe that the most expensive onyx is worth only 80 gp? Then how did all of the 4+ HD zombies in the MM get created? The DMG gives guidelines for gems found in random treasure. It doesn't state that all onyx's fall within this range of value. More expensive onyx's do exist than the 50 gp variety... I hope this helps clear up the stance we have taken towards necromancy. Hopefully these undead allies won't prove too powerful (I don't think they have yet...) -Jindl [Edit] RE: Cohorts - The leadership feat is enough to acquire their service. But it is up to the PC to buy all of their equipment. I have no problem with switching out cohorts as you advance. @Mo - Please keep the cost of corpses, since everyone seemed to vote in favor of it. The thought of Skeletal Titans is very scary... and at least the cost of the body could prevent it. -Jindl |
| Moherajikuyx12-22-03, 05:43 PM | Well done! Free corpses: it's just a proposal (I'm adding the cost to the rules, I forgot as usual), I'd like to hear from others too. *Edit* The cost is 200*delta^2. |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-22-03, 05:48 PM | What about intelligent weapons? I don't mean intelligent magical items, no custom items i understand, but intelligent weapons aren't overpowering for their cost. The cost rises VERY steeply in relation to what you get. Also, since all these other nasties (leadership, necro's) are coming out, us lowly warriors need something to balance it out, and it is within the rules as well. Here's what i was planning on purchasing. 2,700 +3 mighty mw, comp longbow +1 +1,000 one lesser power +1,100 fearie fire 3/day ------ =4,800 gp So 4800 gp just to cast faerie fire 3/day isn't exactly strong. In fact it's weak compared to cohorts, and zombie dragons. But at least it's a start to help warriors balance out the spell casters. 34 of 45 are spell casters, that's 75%. Any thoughts? Tellish |
| SnarkHunter12-22-03, 05:55 PM | First of All Jindle-aye a fine fight, I knew (as mentioned in my tactics) without some aerial advantage I was in trouble. And so I was! I'll get a few more wiz levels as soon as I can :). As for intelligent items, their custom made and so can only be bought by those that can craft them. Which means no one for a great many more levels. We could make some sort of dispensation in the rules but i don't know if we want to start down that rode (custom items for all willy nilly). |
| Caterane12-22-03, 06:13 PM | @Mo: Thanks. I noticed that Clio vs Dragonrain is still on the roster. I thought we cancelled that fight and Clio got a free win!? Since I mod Clio`s fight this week (I promised this to LL) I`ll incorporate Dragonrain in any way but not as an active combatant. Edit: About your new mount. Didn`t we agree to just allow the ones listed in the PHB under companions? Dont get me wrong: I find this a good addition. And how did you get the +2 rear and the +3 competence bonus to Handle animal? What about the good vs evil fight? Ebelin - as the only real member of Harmoneous Jade`s celestial forces - fights on the good side. The Harvester is not evil and doesn`t care about the pity meddling of mortals. |
| Ethendril12-22-03, 06:21 PM | So 4800 gp just to cast faerie fire 3/day isn't exactly strong. In fact it's weak compared to cohorts, and zombie dragons. But at least it's a start to help warriors balance out the spell casters. 34 of 45 are spell casters, that's 75%. I agree that warriors need some help. I think that intelligent items could help do that. I'm all for it, as long as there is a non-subjective way to know what something costs. I think the warriors would be helped as well with a review of the hit point system. Currently it stands as follows: Hps: Max HD first level, half +1/2 then (brb 7, fgt 6, clr 5, rog 4, wiz 3). As I pointed out before, this rewards characters with smaller hit dice. It reduces one of the biggest advantages that warriors have: high hit points. Current system: Barb .58% of max (7/12) Ftr .60% of max (6/10) Clr .62% of max (5/8) Rog .66% of max (4/6) Wiz .75% of max (3/4) I can think of three ways of doing this that would be better: Option 1: Increase hit points for warriors to bring them more in line with other classes, as follows: Barb .66% of max (8/12) Ftr .70% of max (7/10) Clr .62% of max (5/8) Rog .66% of max (4/6) Wiz .75% of max (3/4) This option helps warriors, but no one else. Option 2: Remove the +1 from hit points, as follows: Hps: Max HD first level, then (brb 6, fgt 5, clr 4, rog 3, wiz 2). Result: Everyone gets 50%. It's fair and even, but may result in quicker fights and lower than typical averages. Option 3: 60% formula, as follows: Total hit points = [Maximum hit points for levels 2 through ___(current level)] multiplied by .6 (with result rounded up) then adding the maximum hit points for your first level. This option is slightly more complicated, but puts everyone on equal footing with a few more hit points and is closer to what the average should be. Any of these options will be more fair, and (dare I say it) more CORE. Currently, a wizard has half the maximum hit points of a fighter (fighter=6, wizard =3). A Cleric should have twice the hit points of a wizard (d8 vs. d4), not a fighter (d10). And it just feels better. I know that this wouldn't change hit points that much at current levels, but it would later on, when everyone knows that wizards and other casters are, in general, more powerful than warriors at higher levels. Even if it's not that great of a problem now, it will be later. Just my 2 gp. Ethendril @MO and other senior mods: I've posted on this before and had two positive responses, but not much other commentary. I'd like some more feedback from the Powers That Be, please. |
| Caterane12-22-03, 06:29 PM | @Ethendril: If there`s a senior mod vote, I`ll approve on that though it won`t affect any of my characters. I`m also convinced that casters are more powerful in a gladiatorial battle and therefore... @ToK: ...I would approve to the intelligent items aswell. |
| Jindl12-23-03, 12:23 AM | I like the current Hp rules, and really see no reason to change. I don't think a minor amount of extra hps will make any difference in a fight where the fighter types will lose. When they lose it is normally because they cannot get to the caster (because if they can reach the caster, then the caster is usually dead meat). Adding a few hps shouldn't affect this kind of outcome. Tellish's use of intelligent weapons has a much better chance of helping warriors. But I have some questions: 1. Have you ever been able to buy an intelligent item in a game, and select what its ability scores, languages, and special powers were? Indeed, these are randomly determined at creation, so not even the creator of the weapon gets to decide them. So how can we justify letting a fighter pick and chose which one he buys? 2. Do they count as allies or equipment? Will they be repaired for free if sundered? Do they count against the one ally limitation? How will we handle disputes (like Ego contests)? If you guys can come up with logical answers to these two questions then I will wholly support the purchase of intelligent items. Until then, I think you have to make your own if you want one (and still be subject to the random ability scores and special powers.) @Cat - I just sent you a PM... -Jindl |
| SnarkHunter12-23-03, 12:59 AM | Wha ho creatures of darkness and creatures of the-light-that-is-somewhat-less-black-then-that-of-the-creatures-of-darkness? I am well, if rather crazed by reading both whimsical neurology(oliver sacks) and modern mythology (Neil Gaiman) in the same afternon. Oh well. As we've mentioned before the arena represents a kind of 'best world' view of adventuring life-would it be so bad then to give a fighter (if we do think that intelligent items should be widely available) what he most desires in such a thing? As for equipment vs. Ally-why not both? If its sundered it gets repaired but you can't have more then one of them at a time, and if its goign to go summoning phantasmal mounts you probably won't need a horse either. For disputes, I'd say as long as the character could take 10 on his will save and best it (ridiculous I know but this how we've been doing things) there should be no problem. If he can't...well we'll burn that bridge when we come to it :devil:. In other news would people have terrible, agonizing problems if I were to switch Hanz's 6th level feat from weapon focus (rapier) to leadership? It hasn't made a huge difference one way or another and it won't matter for two weeks anyway because- Hanz will be sitting this week out which means Bilo is my only active character. I think I'll still mod one fight though, because goodness knows I likes me the credits. For the good vs. evil thing I'm considering some sort of mad ICQ or chatroom syle fight except that I realize it would be as easy to herd cats as to get everyone online at the same time. We'll work something out though. Tah tah and joyous Kwanza to you all! |
| Tharkos12-23-03, 04:18 AM | Originally posted by Jindl The arena has voted on what the cost should be. I think the result is that the cost for bodies ready to animate shall be (Caster's ECL - monster's CR)^2 * 100 gp. Since Crimson Sunrise is a CR 5 creature, and the Harvester acquired him at ECL 6, the cost for the body is zero. And I have no doubt that the Harvester at level 6 could slay a CR 5 creature to acquire its corpse in a real campaign, so I think this is fine. If someone can kill a Dragon singlehandedly at level 6 (even a young one) he needs to be very lucky or have the odds stacked in his favor. That is just my opinion and you are free to ignore it. Our group has tried for years killing some dragons and although we sometimes got close we never did it. Dragons dont usually leave their home address lying around so I doubt you can even find one easily. I wish I could DM you on an attempt to do this ... in any case he would probably need some special equipment which might have affected his current "equipment status". Originally posted by Jindl Please re-read the zombie template. When a creature becomes a zombie, its racial hit dice are doubled. So, Crimson's HD becomes 20. The desecrate gives an extra hp per HD, so the final is 20d12+20, which is exactly what Cat has written. I got this now, thanks for pointing me in the right direction. Originally posted by Jindl Do you really believe that the most expensive onyx is worth only 80 gp? Then how did all of the 4+ HD zombies in the MM get created? The DMG gives guidelines for gems found in random treasure. It doesn't state that all onyx's fall within this range of value. More expensive onyx's do exist than the 50 gp variety... - Yes. There is no rule in the DMG saying how to figure out higher value gems and so 80 gp is the maximum value for an Onyx. That is the official rule and anything else is houserule. Animate Dead needs ONE SINGLE ONYX per body and until that is errataed it is the official rule as well. If you choose to ignore that as well by saying you can do it with several Onyxes worth the total amount that is fine ... houserule as well. - I have no idea how those tougher Zombies were created, but I do know there may be higher level versions of AD out there that none of us know. There are even such things as gods and unholy rituals which could do more. - An Onyx is one of the "low quality" gems and simply because there are 250 gp Alexandrites doesnt mean there are 250 gp Onyxes as well. If you interpret that table as a "guideline to be stretched at will" then you are bending the rules. Animate Dead IMO was never intended as a "create a tough monster" spell but rather as one to create "hordes of dumb humanoid slaves" (see 1st / 2nd edition AD). Interpreting this "guideline" in such a way is about the same as saying the 10d6 maximum for fireball is a "guideline" and you can equally have a 15 HD fireball for a 3rd level spell. Originally posted by Jindl I hope this helps clear up the stance we have taken towards necromancy. Hopefully these undead allies won't prove too powerful (I don't think they have yet...) If a level 6 character (which Harvester was when he created that thing) can control a monster which has 3 times more HD than he himself has something is wrong IMO. That would never work in real roleplaying unless you like your players munchy. For the purposes of the arena a cleric of the same level as Harvester was (6th level) could never even turn a monster such as this ... so this is another reason why I think that thing is "over the top" due to the lack of a possible countermeasure. You need to be a 16th level cleric to be able to even attempt to turn it and 40th level to destroy it. That is an imbalance IMO. The dragon Zombie as it is could probably kill a 6th level fighter singlehandedly and even higher level fighters wouldnt have a chance with the Cleric on his back as well. What this all boils down to is the fact that it isnt a "1 on 1" anymore, but rather a "1+X vs 1+X" and anyone not getting someONE (who has to be equally powerful) to support himself will be outnumbered from round 1. Its ok to check for munchkin combos and maybe this is the intention of most people here but thats not what I would call fun. Sitting on a Dragon (who luckily has a 150 move) and winning the initiative first round will give you plenty of "1 round fights" like Harvester did lately. Too bad you cant start prepared with spells, potions or items ... defense always takes too much time (unless its of the 24/7 sort). |
| Tharkos12-23-03, 04:23 AM | For your attempt to do the "group battle" I would advise you to get Teamspeak. Its a free utility and can host several channels with multiple persons. One channel for the good guys and another for the bad guys and the DM listens to them both in turn. http://teamspeak.org/ |
| Moherajikuyx12-23-03, 04:54 AM | Originally posted by Caterane @Mo: Thanks. I noticed that Clio vs Dragonrain is still on the roster. I thought we cancelled that fight and Clio got a free win!? Yes, *surprise* I forgot to delete the fight. We discussed special mounts, but I think that no one ever used handle animal. About the bonus, check the magic items! :) I'm a loco to pay 3k for that... hit points Ethendril, I agree that something should be done. I think that the best way to solve the thing, and with best I mean more core, is to use the monster default hp rule, but with max @ first: max, half-1/2, half+1/2, half-1/2... I already proposed that, I abandoned when someone said it is too complicated, but I don't think it is. BTW, this calculation gives exactly 50%: 1/2d4=2.5 If no one finds a good reason of not doing this, we'll begin this week: with the current rules, wizards get a toughness every six levels. And it's not a little thing, even at these levels: Rito lost for 1 or 2 hps twice already. Tharkos, your reasoning makes some sense... I didn't even know about the gems table. I usually use the SRD and I don't think it's in there. A craft: gemcutting skill would solve that though, I believe? |
| Irlina12-23-03, 06:53 AM | @Gems: Well, perhaps gemcutting would help- I doubt that, it would be just a houserule. However, yes, there is no price for any higher value-gems given anywhere. But why shouldn't they exist? Just because there are no tables? Many spells have components with no price given anywhere. How do you get them? Where do you get whatever (silverdust, spiderwebs etc), it's nowhere written. Etc. So why shouldn't you get higher-value gems? I think the simple rule that you just spend the amount of money for spells with pricey components makes life much simpler! Any component which has obviosly a low price is free (spiderwebs and stuff) and problemativ components like bodies for animate dead was decided by vote. BTW: Goodbye and merry xmas for some time! And I'd like some more thoughts the 2 or 3 credits=1 lvl idea. Many people wanted wanted more diversity in the arena and this offers both a possibility to encourage modding (since I still remember when mods were low) and doesn't break any core rules/whatever. The higher ECL==more fights every week obviously doesn't work. And so of course I don't know whether someone actually would run such a character- but at least every credit is worth 1/3 lvl. You could even think of trading credit points/error points and putting them together (less rules are good rules!). |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-23-03, 07:33 AM | @Eth & hit points rule. I like the way it is now because it works. Warriors who lose fights to casters don't lose because of a few extra hit points. It would be nice to seem them get a few extra no doubt. If it is put to a vote, i would vote with your option #2. @Intelligent Items. (too randemic?) I don't see how it's anymore random than the current magic item tables. They all have a randomneses to it, yet we somehow buy a Longsword +1, flaming, right? I truely, and honestly don't see how it can unbalance a fight for a warrior. Let me post an example. Stolen from Tellish's diary, which Iron burned...grrrr Gallantry, neutral +3 mighty masterwork composite longbow +1 2,000 +3 mighty bow +1 +12,000 3 lesser/2 greater powers(1 of which is dedicated) + 1,100 fearie fire 3/day + 6,500 hold person 3/day + 6,500 cure moderate wounds (2d8+3) 3/day +16,000 cast haste on owner 3/day +80,000 wielder gains +2 luck bonus on saves/checks/attacks ------ =124,100 gp EGO:17 This weapon, costing a warrior 124k just to do that? I mean seriously, seriously take a look at it. I calculated at what level he'd need to afford it too. FIFTEENTH!!!! and that is IF he saved nearly every penny from 2nd to 15th. That cannot possibly upset game balance at that level vs ANY caster. Especially when we have unaccounted for corpses with 20hd floating around at just 7th & 8th. Thus here is my proposal. 1. To have an Intelligent Item you cannot have any caster levels and must beat the Ego DC by taking 10 on your will saves. 2. They will count as simple magic items and not affect your allies. Meaning you could still be mounted, and if they are sundered, they are replaced for free as per current rules. Also, i think it's fair to say you cannot have a spellcasting cohort either. 3. Only weapons can be made intelligent, and only one intelligent weapon allowed between you and your cohort if you eventually get one. @Jindl Originally posted by Jindl 1. Have you ever been able to buy an intelligent item in a game, and select what its ability scores, languages, and special powers were? Indeed, these are randomly determined at creation, so not even the creator of the weapon gets to decide them. So how can we justify letting a fighter pick and chose which one he buys? Depends if you ask your Dm nicely enough :D But also, have you ever been able to just find a dead 10hd dragon with the special onyx etc.. just kicking around in a desecrated zone? I'm just trying to preserve some balance (and all core, and all legit, not even house ruling here, except for limiting it to ONLY warriors as noted above) for the warriors and give players some incentive to play them as well. In a few more weeks the whole arena will be dominated by casters because of the "Hey, i just happen to have the rare component because i paid the gp" thingy. "Also, just happen to find the shop that sells all the scrolls i need week after week. AMAZING!" That's all. Just trying to help the little guy balance things out, without houserulling. Tellish |
| Moherajikuyx12-23-03, 08:00 AM | Look at the roster, lvl 9, and tell me what the pcs have in common. This arena became a 2 vs. 2 thing. Is this ok for everyone? We have to discuss the allies thing, but the central point is that we have to accept all allies, or disallow all allies and make the arena 1 vs 1. For everyone: - Animal Companions - Constructs: Golems, Shield Guardians, ... - Familiars - Leadership cohorts - Handled animals - Intelligent items - Special mounts - Spells: Animate Dead, ... - ... Probably, making it 1 vs 1 would be the real spirit of an arena. I know, it would make several things worthless: skills, feats, class abilities, spells... A possible intermediate solution would be to allow only the things with listed prices: that way we could go on with the allies, but it would be easily balanced. Druids/Paladins would have to pay just for the pegasus/hyppogriph/griffon youngs and pay the trainers (or train them if they invest in handle animal), then declare them their companion/divine mount. Other pcs would have the chance of paying the same for an inferior mount. Wizards and sorcs would still have their familiar, or the golem if they pay for it. Clerics could animate the corpse of the enemy's allies if they slay it in the field, removing any doubt about the possibility of winning against such a foe! :devil: The costs would be high, which, I feel, is correct for such an advantage. The appropriate feats/skills/class abilities would still be used: the leadership feat could make that cost free, at least until some cohorts die. This would hamper our freedom, I know, but it would also make the fights easier to moderate. Anyways, I'm just brainstorming... Let's hear from others now. I'm not going to force anything this time, and I'm already counting Jindl's vote against this. I will serenely adapt to the arena main feeling. The central point though is that we have to make it "all or none": if we disallow a thing, we disallow all the allies, else we'll always see only those who have the advantage of numbers (check the 9th lvl again) on the high roster. Hit points: I'm for the ½max too. Easier than the +1, -1 etc, and it can be found in the DMG too. |
| Market_Share12-23-03, 08:09 AM | Ya'll wait until 26HD shield guardians hit the table, then ya'll will see unbalancing. I don't see that bow as unbalancing, especially given that at 15th level shield guardians start popping out, and iron golems and such. Far be it for me to deny someone a tooth pick launcher. 20hd skeleton titans and 18HD tyranasaurus rex mounts will be pretty common to boot. I won't stop the bow thing. Both my guys are casters so go for it. I had a few fights to catch up on and read. hehe What?!? Lay on Hands?! WHAT! Why didn't Faldions horse play the prancing pony song on his filthy carcass? Lay on Hands? SMASH HIM!! Lol, ok, now that i got that outa my system. On the hit points thingy, dunno. I have a ton of hitpoints right now. 80 more hit points would not have saved my extremely sore derrier against Herr Hanz, who came out to play and it was ever so much fun! {for him} STOMP ON HIM!! ______________ Barb .66% of max (8/12) Ftr .70% of max (7/10) Clr .62% of max (5/8) Rog .66% of max (4/6) Wiz .75% of max (3/4) _______________ That's the one i'd go for. Lay on hands? LAY ON HANDS!? CRUSH HIM! SPIKE EDIT: Pale-Rider challenges Krakskul Begins to sing, "I've got the brains, you've got the brawns, lets make lots of money," Pale continues "....hmmm. Yes, a fine zombie speciment you'll make. Oh, and I hope you don't mind if i'm the only one making the money. Har har har." ---Pale |
| Moherajikuyx12-23-03, 08:21 AM | :rofl: You're THE dwarf! :bow: |
| MadCowTemplate12-23-03, 09:31 AM | @MO: Just wanted to double-check, since Lora lost her last three fights, I should level her up and spend gold as if she had won a fight, correct? I am working on transfering her to the correct sheet format bty, sorry 'bout the wait. Also, I would be happy to run a fight, even two if you need the help, this week. As most of my friends will be out of town or otherwise engaged with their families, I will have more time available than usual. Merry Christmas, happy Chanukkah, happy Kwanzaa, good Slavaka, and I hope my wickan friends had a pleasent solstice.(Although I'm a Christian myself. Where do I meet these people?) :tiphat: |
| Jindl12-23-03, 10:59 AM | @Tharkos - In response to some of your questions/statements: Originally posted by Tharkos If someone can kill a Dragon singlehandedly at level 6 (even a young one) he needs to be very lucky or have the odds stacked in his favor. That is just my opinion and you are free to ignore it. Our group has tried for years killing some dragons and although we sometimes got close we never did it. Dragons dont usually leave their home address lying around so I doubt you can even find one easily. I wish I could DM you on an attempt to do this ... in any case he would probably need some special equipment which might have affected his current "equipment status". The very yound red dragon that the Harvester used is a CR 5 creature. By definition a level 6 character should be able to defeat it. Add to this, the Harvester is very efficiently min-maxxed (well maybe not "very" :D). He should have no trouble defeating a CR 5 creature, even if it is a dragon. Originally posted by Tharkos - Yes. There is no rule in the DMG saying how to figure out higher value gems and so 80 gp is the maximum value for an Onyx. That is the official rule and anything else is houserule. Animate Dead needs ONE SINGLE ONYX per body and until that is errataed it is the official rule as well. If you choose to ignore that as well by saying you can do it with several Onyxes worth the total amount that is fine ... houserule as well. - I have no idea how those tougher Zombies were created, but I do know there may be higher level versions of AD out there that none of us know. There are even such things as gods and unholy rituals which could do more. - An Onyx is one of the "low quality" gems and simply because there are 250 gp Alexandrites doesnt mean there are 250 gp Onyxes as well. If you interpret that table as a "guideline to be stretched at will" then you are bending the rules. Animate Dead IMO was never intended as a "create a tough monster" spell but rather as one to create "hordes of dumb humanoid slaves" (see 1st / 2nd edition AD). Interpreting this "guideline" in such a way is about the same as saying the 10d6 maximum for fireball is a "guideline" and you can equally have a 15 HD fireball for a 3rd level spell. Again, you are committing a logical fallacy. Just because there is no rule that says that onyx's above 80 gp exist, doesn't mean they don't exist. It just means they are not found as part of "random" treasure generation. While I might agree with your opinion on zombies in 1st/2nd Ed., in 3.0 and 3.5 many things changed. Now a single powerful zombie can indeed be a fearsome opponent. As far as saying that onyx's can be more than 80 gps is equivalent to allowing fireballs of more than 10d6, again you are committing a logical fallacy. In the case of onyx's there is no rule saying they cannot be worth more. In the case of fireball's the rule explicitly states they cap at 10d6. Lack of a rule isn't the same thing as an explicit rule. Originally posted by Tharkos If a level 6 character (which Harvester was when he created that thing) can control a monster which has 3 times more HD than he himself has something is wrong IMO. That would never work in real roleplaying unless you like your players munchy. FYI: The zombie dragon that the Harvester has is a CR 6 creature. That puts it perfectly in line for him to control. Originally posted by Tharkos For the purposes of the arena a cleric of the same level as Harvester was (6th level) could never even turn a monster such as this ... so this is another reason why I think that thing is "over the top" due to the lack of a possible countermeasure. You need to be a 16th level cleric to be able to even attempt to turn it and 40th level to destroy it. That is an imbalance IMO. The dragon Zombie as it is could probably kill a 6th level fighter singlehandedly and even higher level fighters wouldnt have a chance with the Cleric on his back as well. Here are some possible countermeasures, just off the top of my head: Arrows of slaying(undead), potions of invisibility to undead, scrolls or spells of command undead or hold undead, and then there is simply attacking the Harvester directly. A cleric's inability to turn it is irrelevent when determining if it is allowable to create. Another great trick ... throw a tanglefoot bag at it when its flying. If it hits, it will likely fail the reflex save, and the beast will fall to the earth, where it and its rider will take significant damage. Originally posted by Tharkos What this all boils down to is the fact that it isnt a "1 on 1" anymore, but rather a "1+X vs 1+X" and anyone not getting someONE (who has to be equally powerful) to support himself will be outnumbered from round 1. Its ok to check for munchkin combos and maybe this is the intention of most people here but thats not what I would call fun. Sitting on a Dragon (who luckily has a 150 move) and winning the initiative first round will give you plenty of "1 round fights" like Harvester did lately. Too bad you cant start prepared with spells, potions or items ... defense always takes too much time (unless its of the 24/7 sort). First, I advocate allies which are based on class features. That means, skills (like ride and handle animal), feats (leadership, mounted combat, improved familiar), class features (animal companions, special mounts, familiars), summons (planar ally, planar bindings, summon spells), and creation (golems, animated dead, intelligent items). All of these allies originate with the character. Thus you may say it is 1+ vs 1+, but in reality the allies are simply part of the 1. To deny a wizard his familiar, or a druid his animal companion, or a paladin his mount, or a necromancer his undead ... is to eliminate these builds, all of which are perfectly valid and playable in a campaign. FYI: The Harvester won that fight not due to the mount's movement, but because of a hold person spell. A rod of enlarge spell would have accomplished the same thing (mainly bringing Bilo in range of the spell). Also, since it is a zombie dragon, it can only move 150 each round. Unlike Skymoon's pegasus special mount, which can move 480 a round when running, 240 on a double move. Finally, if you want to suggest that we allow 2 rounds to prepare before the fight starts, I really think this would only favor the casters even more... -Jindl |
| sshuit12-23-03, 11:06 AM | First of all Thanks to LLMadCow for picking up that fight. Greatly appreciated. One question about the whole shooting scrolls thing. I was under the impression that scroll AC would be about 9 (base per DMG + 4 Dex + 2Size (tiny) = 15. How did you calculate the scroll AC? One more nit pick. Once I successfully interrupt with my readied action, my initiative score changes to just before Targ, meaning I would have had a chance to shoot that all important Prot From Arrows scroll ... right? I'm pretty happy with how it turned out as I knew if I missed that fly scroll life would probly suck for Roger :-( sshuit |
| Moherajikuyx12-23-03, 11:43 AM | Command/Halt Undead: only wizos; Hide from Undead works only until you attack; Slaying arrows cost more than the undead, to the advantage of the undead animator; and the great trick of the tanglebag isn't that great if the other one has mounted combat. Concentrating on the rider means ignoring the undead, but this tends to let it attack freely, and as we saw with monkbane and others, it's not a wise idea. Just a bit of nitpicking, let's keep with the ideas. BTW: if a dragon gets slain by the harvester, next time it shall learn better the rules of charging... :angel: |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-23-03, 11:52 AM | Just bumping my old post down to the next page. :D @Eth & hit points rule. I like the way it is now because it works. Warriors who lose fights to casters don't lose because of a few extra hit points. It would be nice to seem them get a few extra no doubt. If it is put to a vote, i would vote with your option #2. @Intelligent Items. (too randemic?) I don't see how it's anymore random than the current magic item tables. They all have a randomneses to it, yet we somehow buy a Longsword +1, flaming, right? I truely, and honestly don't see how it can unbalance a fight for a warrior. Let me post an example. quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Stolen from Tellish's diary, which Iron burned...grrrr Gallantry, neutral +3 mighty masterwork composite longbow +1 2,000 +3 mighty bow +1 +12,000 3 lesser/2 greater powers(1 of which is dedicated) + 1,100 fearie fire 3/day + 6,500 hold person 3/day + 6,500 cure moderate wounds (2d8+3) 3/day +16,000 cast haste on owner 3/day +80,000 wielder gains +2 luck bonus on saves/checks/attacks ------ =124,100 gp EGO:17 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This weapon, costing a warrior 124k just to do that? I mean seriously, seriously take a look at it. I calculated at what level he'd need to afford it too. FIFTEENTH!!!! and that is IF he saved nearly every penny from 2nd to 15th. That cannot possibly upset game balance at that level vs ANY caster. Especially when we have unaccounted for corpses with 20hd floating around at just 7th & 8th. Thus here is my proposal. 1. To have an Intelligent Item you cannot have any caster levels and must beat the Ego DC by taking 10 on your will saves. 2. They will count as simple magic items and not affect your allies. Meaning you could still be mounted, and if they are sundered, they are replaced for free as per current rules. Also, i think it's fair to say you cannot have a spellcasting cohort either. 3. Only weapons can be made intelligent, and only one intelligent weapon allowed between you and your cohort if you eventually get one. @Jindl quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Jindl 1. Have you ever been able to buy an intelligent item in a game, and select what its ability scores, languages, and special powers were? Indeed, these are randomly determined at creation, so not even the creator of the weapon gets to decide them. So how can we justify letting a fighter pick and chose which one he buys? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Depends if you ask your Dm nicely enough But also, have you ever been able to just find a dead 10hd dragon with the special onyx etc.. just kicking around in a desecrated zone? I'm just trying to preserve some balance (and all core, and all legit, not even house ruling here, except for limiting it to ONLY warriors as noted above) for the warriors and give players some incentive to play them as well. In a few more weeks the whole arena will be dominated by casters because of the "Hey, i just happen to have the rare component because i paid the gp" thingy. "Also, just happen to find the shop that sells all the scrolls i need week after week. AMAZING!" That's all. Just trying to help the little guy balance things out, without houserulling. Tellish |
| Jindl12-23-03, 11:56 AM | @Ethendril - Please read my response to what ToK said on the Hp issue: Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket @Eth & hit points rule. I like the way it is now because it works. Warriors who lose fights to casters don't lose because of a few extra hit points. It would be nice to seem them get a few extra no doubt. If it is put to a vote, i would vote with your option #2. I agree completely. Warriors don't lose to casters due to hps. They lose due to saves, mobility, or inability to locate the caster. An extra hp per level won't make any difference. But if it would make people happy ... then I would abstain from the vote. ========================== @Tellish - Your ideas have some merit, but here is my (hopefully constructive) criticism. I would like very much to find a way to implement intelligent items in the arena, but must insist that we find a way to do it that is consistent with the core rules. Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket @Intelligent Items. (too randemic?) I don't see how it's anymore random than the current magic item tables. They all have a randomneses to it, yet we somehow buy a Longsword +1, flaming, right? I truely, and honestly don't see how it can unbalance a fight for a warrior. Let me post an example. What I was saying is that unlike your +1 flaming longsword, which you can commission being made, and get exactly what you want; intelligent items are crafted randomly. Please read the section on crafting intelligent items. The creator doesn't get to pick which powers the item has, they are determined randomly. So, how can you commission an item with specific powers to be made? The crafter may have to make the item 40 times before randomly getting the powers you wanted. This is why I think buying the intelligent items with the player's choice of powers isn't within the core rules. Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket This weapon, costing a warrior 124k just to do that? I mean seriously, seriously take a look at it. I calculated at what level he'd need to afford it too. FIFTEENTH!!!! and that is IF he saved nearly every penny from 2nd to 15th. That cannot possibly upset game balance at that level vs ANY caster. Especially when we have unaccounted for corpses with 20hd floating around at just 7th & 8th. FYI: You have to be 15th level to create intelligent items as well. Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket Thus here is my proposal. 1. To have an Intelligent Item you cannot have any caster levels and must beat the Ego DC by taking 10 on your will saves. 2. They will count as simple magic items and not affect your allies. Meaning you could still be mounted, and if they are sundered, they are replaced for free as per current rules. Also, i think it's fair to say you cannot have a spellcasting cohort either. 3. Only weapons can be made intelligent, and only one intelligent weapon allowed between you and your cohort if you eventually get one. 1 - Why can't characters with caster levels own these items? Are intelligent items now a class feature of fighters / barbs / rogues / and monks? What about a Fighter 19 / Wiz 1? Why would he be ineligable. I disagree with this non-caster only idea. Especially since casters are the only ones who can create these items. 2 - The DMG says to treat them as constructs. As such I would make them count as an ally. Especially since they get to take their own actions, make their own spot checks, etc. As constructs they would not normally be repaired for free if destroyed. But I would say that since they are more prone to sundering (being worn items), that even though they are allies they would be subject to the free repair rules. Making them allies is important, as it keeps the balance (meaning those with class feature allies will be less likely to use intelligent items, because then they would have to leave their special mounts, animal companions, or zombie dragons at home). 3 - Why would you limit it to only weapons? The core rules say that many wondrous items, rods, rings, and armors are also intelligent. Heck, it even gives examples. I don't think it is appropriate to deviate from core in this way. Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket Depends if you ask your Dm nicely enough :D But also, have you ever been able to just find a dead 10hd dragon with the special onyx etc.. just kicking around in a desecrated zone? This is a little off topic, but the dead dragon issue has been heavily discussed. The arena corpse rules indicate that either you are tough enough to slay the beast (and thus it costs nothing), or you spend gold to either hire allies to help you slay the beast, pay money to find a corpse and exhume it, or buy the corpse from someone who already killed the monster. As for having the right onyx to use, well I assume some time would be spent in research and shopping to get the right value of spell component. But in the arena we ignore time between fights (or hadn't you noticed?) Like when the barb/cleric creates mithral plate mail between fights (which would take 2 years in a campaign). Or the wizard who replaces his familiar after the fight (instead of waiting a year and a day like he would in a campaign). In the arena, time between matches is irrelevent. Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket I'm just trying to preserve some balance (and all core, and all legit, not even house ruling here, except for limiting it to ONLY warriors as noted above) for the warriors and give players some incentive to play them as well. In a few more weeks the whole arena will be dominated by casters because of the "Hey, i just happen to have the rare component because i paid the gp" thingy. "Also, just happen to find the shop that sells all the scrolls i need week after week. AMAZING!" No offense, bud. But all three of your proposal suggestions are very house-ruled and greatly deviate from the core rules. As for buying scrolls, the core rules are that if you go to a settlement that meets the gp limit, then you can buy the item (or have it made). So, its not unrealistic to think that if you go to a metropolis you could commission a scroll of whatever spell you want to be made. Indeed, in the game I play in, my wizard has even had NPC's approach me asking me to make scrolls for them :D. So, that's just part of the core rules. -Jindl |
| barrel_master12-23-03, 12:00 PM | Originally posted by Ethendril I agree that warriors need some help. I think that intelligent items could help do that. I'm all for it, as long as there is a non-subjective way to know what something costs. I think the warriors would be helped as well with a review of the hit point system. Currently it stands as follows: As I pointed out before, this rewards characters with smaller hit dice. It reduces one of the biggest advantages that warriors have: high hit points. Current system: Barb .58% of max (7/12) Ftr .60% of max (6/10) Clr .62% of max (5/8) Rog .66% of max (4/6) Wiz .75% of max (3/4) I can think of three ways of doing this that would be better: Option 1: Increase hit points for warriors to bring them more in line with other classes, as follows: Barb .66% of max (8/12) Ftr .70% of max (7/10) Clr .62% of max (5/8) Rog .66% of max (4/6) Wiz .75% of max (3/4) This option helps warriors, but no one else. Option 2: Remove the +1 from hit points, as follows: Hps: Max HD first level, then (brb 6, fgt 5, clr 4, rog 3, wiz 2). Result: Everyone gets 50%. It's fair and even, but may result in quicker fights and lower than typical averages. Option 3: 60% formula, as follows: Total hit points = [Maximum hit points for levels 2 through ___(current level)] multiplied by .6 (with result rounded up) then adding the maximum hit points for your first level. This option is slightly more complicated, but puts everyone on equal footing with a few more hit points and is closer to what the average should be. Any of these options will be more fair, and (dare I say it) more CORE. Currently, a wizard has half the maximum hit points of a fighter (fighter=6, wizard =3). A Cleric should have twice the hit points of a wizard (d8 vs. d4), not a fighter (d10). And it just feels better. I know that this wouldn't change hit points that much at current levels, but it would later on, when everyone knows that wizards and other casters are, in general, more powerful than warriors at higher levels. Even if it's not that great of a problem now, it will be later. Just my 2 gp. Ethendril @MO and other senior mods: I've posted on this before and had two positive responses, but not much other commentary. I'd like some more feedback from the Powers That Be, please. Good arguement however... An average die roll will yeild a value of (min value of die + max value on die)/2. And as such we would get the following values for average hp depending on die. 6.5/12 = 54% 5.5/10 = 55 4.5/8 = 56 3.5/6 = 58 2.5/4 = 63 Even in campain there are % imbalances. |
| Sir Cridion12-23-03, 12:09 PM | Babar vs Cadion is up. I'm sorry about that, I had a busy day yesterday and the word processor screwed up... Anyways, I hope I ran the fight properly - Moh, I'm still not completely sure about your tactics there so I assumed you meant ro flee when you heard the sleep spell. Edit: Oops, just realized I forgot to roll AoOs for trip attacks. Didn't change the fight's outcome though. |
| Jindl12-23-03, 12:11 PM | @MadCowTemplate - Yep, the 3 loss = 1 bump has passed. Ebelin has bumped to 9th. Lora is welcome to go ahead and bump as well. @Market_Share - Faldion didn't CDG because his tactics expressly said not to. But I do know how much Spike enjoyed watching Hanz get beat down... @Mo - Didn't we agree that the only creatures you can buy are the ones listed with a price? What is the price of an untrained advanced megaraptor? That can't really be an allowable ally? You just messing with us, right? @LLMadCow - Didn't we already say that you can't sunder with ranged weapons, especially with piercing ones? So how did you sunder a scroll with an arrow? It's against the rules. Instead of reposting all of the old debate, I'll try to find what pages of this thread it was discussed on a tell you where to look... -Jindl (Whew, that's too many conversations to be involved in at once. Time for a little break.) :D |
| Caterane12-23-03, 12:12 PM | Ok, now I have some time to answer some statements: Originally posted by Irlina: Oh, and one more idea for higher ECL levels. I don't think it really encourages a mod to take creatures of higher base level, if they need to make an additional fight every week for it. Since many mods have lots of credits, why don't we simply allow them to change them for more interesting creatures? Suggestion: 2 credits can be exchanged for one higher level adjustment. So for example with 6 credits a mod can take 3 extra levels to start with a level 2 / 3 (level adjust+bhd) creature. Perhaps this is more fair since you only have to pay once! (but still must pay not little) And of course this still counts a normal pc so they have to mod fights for more than 1 character. Hey, this idea is great!! An additional fight every week is far too much and since only ToK tried it it`s obviously not very appealing. With Irlina`s idea we get a couple of flies with one hit, the best advantage is greater versatiliy. Finally we might see Minotaurs - a gladiator every arena should have and many many more. Our options will become endless and they are earned! Let`s do it that way. I like the current Hp rules, and really see no reason to change. I don't think a minor amount of extra hps will make any difference in a fight where the fighter types will lose. When they lose it is normally because they cannot get to the caster (because if they can reach the caster, then the caster is usually dead meat). Adding a few hps shouldn't affect this kind of outcome. But it does no bad either. Obviously the amount of fighters speaks for itself. Let`s boost them a bit. If someone can kill a Dragon singlehandedly at level 6 (even a young one) he needs to be very lucky or have the odds stacked in his favor. Bah. The dragon has 95 hp; that`s about 3 ride-by charges, protected from fire and a few other boost will do the rest. What this all boils down to is the fact that it isnt a "1 on 1" anymore, but rather a "1+X vs 1+X" and anyone not getting someONE (who has to be equally powerful) to support himself will be outnumbered from round 1. Either we make it completely 1 on 1 (no mounts, no companions, no familiars) which robs the arena of flavor or we continue finding ways so that everyone is able to get a good ally ...and we made great progresses in the last weeks. There was a time when druids were the only ones with allies but now everyone can aquire one. That`s good in my opinion. @Intelligent Items. (too randemic?) I don't see how it's anymore random than the current magic item tables. They all have a randomneses to it, yet we somehow buy a Longsword +1, flaming, right? I truely, and honestly don't see how it can unbalance a fight for a warrior. Let me post an example. Since intelligent items are sentinent and can cast on their own they should be considered allies - another option to get one for fighter types, and not a bad one either! But the discussion about random things and such is really unnecessary. Let`s leave the whole roleplaying part out and just say that everything is available, even gems as big as a house. Ya'll wait until 26HD shield guardians hit the table, then ya'll will see unbalancing. I don't see that bow as unbalancing, especially given that at 15th level shield guardians start popping out, and iron golems and such. Far be it for me to deny someone a tooth pick launcher. And I`ll just fly up or use my winged boots and greet your golem from high above. Not unbalancing in my eyes. Add to this, the Harvester is very efficiently min-maxxed (well maybe not "very" ). Huh? I hear? The Harvester won that fight not due to the mount's movement, but because of a hold person spell. Yeah. And Wraith would bring me right next to my flatfooted foe - if I so desire. Edit: I want to take Combat expertise with Harvester. Unfortunately he only has Int10. Can I buy a Headband of intellect to qualify for the feat or must the "base" ability be 13? Edit2: How do I determine the caster level for intellinget items? |
| Ethendril12-23-03, 12:29 PM | I want to take Combat expertise with Harvester. Unfortunately he only has Int10. Can I buy a Headband of intellect to qualify for the feat or must the "base" ability be 13? You should be able to get the feat, and use it while your Int is 13. PHB, pg. 87 says that "A character can't use a feat if he or she has lost a prerequisite. For example, if your character's Strength drops below 13 because of a ray of enfeeblement spell, he or she can't use the Power Attack feat until the prerequisite is once again met." So I think you meet the pre-reqs while wearing it, but if someone hit you with touch of idiocy (still stinging from the fight with Iku...), you would lose the ability to use it. Even in campain there are % imbalances. Agreed, but the numbers are closer, and don't reward wizards as much. As many have said, there are few warrriors in the arena, so what's the harm? It may not make a difference in every fight, but it will in enough to make warriors just a notch better. Ethendril |
| Caterane12-23-03, 12:45 PM | @Mo: I`ll mod Iku Rex and Clio this week |
| Moherajikuyx12-23-03, 12:48 PM | Originally posted by barrel_master Even in campain there are % imbalances. But using your same method, the actual hit points rules make the unbalance worst. The fighters don't lose for some hit points more... But the wizards can lose for some hit points less, expecially if against archers... Giving more hitpoints to everyone would be wrong and not core; giving less to everyone would be good and core (like as monster rules: ½max @ lvl 2, ½max+1, ½max@ lvl 3, ½max+1@ lvl 4 and so on, or like the optional hit points rule: ½ max each level after 1). It would greatly help barbarians and fighters: they would lose few of their lots of hps, d4s would lose much more. Originally posted by Jindl @Mo - Didn't we agree that the only creatures you can buy are the ones listed with a price? The pet is not bought: he's reared and trained taking 10 on handle animal. If druids can find any animal companion for free, why shouldn't animal handlers? I suggest everyone to reread this proposal (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2152757#post2152757) of mine... Seriously. Ah, and I suggest barbarians and fighters to begin taking ranks in handle animal, to make my point clearer. Hum, I guess it's time to post a new vote, the hit points thing got some popular demand it seems. |
| Tharkos12-23-03, 12:50 PM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Tharkos, your reasoning makes some sense... I didn't even know about the gems table. I usually use the SRD and I don't think it's in there. A craft: gemcutting skill would solve that though, I believe? Not really, since that table in the DMG lists a range of gold pieces for these gems and the maximum price is the maximum value for a perfect cut. You cant raise the value of a gem to wherever you want. People just arent willing to pay that much for it since the "lesser gems" are available in bigger quantities, easier to "cut" (some are only "polished" till they have a smooth surface) and have worse "material qualities" (i.e. are soft, less shiney, ...). I know this problem of Animate Dead is one of A LOT of bugs still in the game (due to VERY BAD wording of the spell), but until it is changed in an errata it is the official version. If you want to read other "problematic" spells in 3.5 look here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=86768&highlight=Wizard+new+Spells So you (the participants in the arena) could rule this, but I would advise against any changes, because it would be the start for implementing a lot of houserules. Since this is supposed to be the CORE RULES arena it would loose that status then. Originally posted by Jindl Again, you are committing a logical fallacy. Just because there is no rule that says that onyx's above 80 gp exist, doesn't mean they don't exist. It just means they are not found as part of "random" treasure generation. While I might agree with your opinion on zombies in 1st/2nd Ed., in 3.0 and 3.5 many things changed. Now a single powerful zombie can indeed be a fearsome opponent. As far as saying that onyx's can be more than 80 gps is equivalent to allowing fireballs of more than 10d6, again you are committing a logical fallacy. In the case of onyx's there is no rule saying they cannot be worth more. In the case of fireball's the rule explicitly states they cap at 10d6. Lack of a rule isn't the same thing as an explicit rule. Lack of a rule doesnt mean its possible. Just because there is no Atom bomb, F16, ... in the rules does it mean they can exist ? You are the one who is making logical errors. How then are these mystical onyxes that dont show up in any official table handled ? How much can they be worth ? Or is it "open ended" ? Munchy munch ... How about you prove to me (by using the rules) that Onyxes of a higher value do exist ? I still doubt that a 6th level character could have slain even a very young dragon ... depending mostly upon the conditions in which the battle takes place and even very young dragons arent dumb enough to get cornered. And speaking of the creature ... Harvester can only control the thing because he has created it himself. If he would like to "take it over" from someone or if it was uncontrolled he would need 40 levels of cleric (PHB pg. 159). That is still a HUGE difference. Comparing a 20d12+20 Undead Dragon with a 4d10+12 Pegasus is rich ... the Pegasus can be killed A LOT easier due to the much lower hit points. Need I say Maximized FIREBALL ??? (I just took the average Pegasus values, not bothering to see if any "specials" have to be applied to this one.) I bet these "1 round battles" will increase for a simple reason ... whoever wins initiative has a chance to try an "instakill" because due to such "speed mounts" AND because everyone knows where the opponent starts!!!!!! There are several possible solutions to this problem: a. eliminate the fixed starting positions so the combatants need to look for each other first, b. add a daytime and/or some other weather conditions for the fight so vision/flying/archery might be hampered for some combatants or c. you could require combatants to start 20 feet away from their mount so they cant just charge in the first round and score an easy kill on an unprepared victim who was unlucky to loose initiative. For a. Combatants could include their starting positions in their email and even flying should be allowed (stating direction, height and speed) if they have flying capability due to wings, a permanent spell or item or a flying mount. For b. you could use the random weather table in the DMG including all the effects which snow might have on peoples chances to hide due to the tracks they leave behind and the effect which severe wind conditions have on ranged combat (and flying). c. is more or less like the old motor races where the drivers had to run over to their car and jump in so they could start ... at least it would prevent first round charge attacks (until a monk gets high enough in level to do it ...). As it is atm the arena will probably see ever more of these "1 round battles" due to a simple fact: the offensive capability and range of most characters (even a charging fighter with a lance could split a caster in half first round ...) will rise dramatically and defense usually involves at least a skill check (Hide) and probably several spells and magic items. Characters NOT built for pure offense wont stand a chance (if they loose initiative in a fight with one minmaxed for pure offense) in the future and that is hardly realistic from the "roleplaying" aspect. Short battles might be efficient, but they can hardly be called fun and that is what D&D is about for me. |
| Moherajikuyx12-23-03, 01:05 PM | As many will not play during the holidays, only characters with "Ready for Christmas" in the title will be set to ready. The "Ready for the ...." is now a required thing, to help me understand what characters are to be set ready. Thanks! |
| SnarkHunter12-23-03, 01:22 PM | @Thakros: I suspect we will be ignoring the onxy thing because it is stupid. Harvester's odds of beating the red dragon are likely enough that its not important exactly how it was done. It is impossible to charge the first round of a fight. If you draw a straight line btween the two characters you will notice several @'s and §'s between the two of them. These are coloums and stones which, because they block the movement of a horse, prevent a charge and thus that particular 1st round kill. At the moment 1st round kills are possible at very low levels (with a criting arrow 1st round) or somewhat high level (with a phantasmal killer) but not as much in between. Both still require enough luck to make them uncommon events. I like the idea of the teamspeak utility but again I don't think it will be easy to get everyone online at the same time. @Mo: The hp thing you may have a point on. but it works both ways. A lot of the direct damage spells a caster uses will become more useful as the hp's of the opponents decreases. Even 1-5 hps (which is about what people will be losing) can make a difference when people are tossing fireballs around willy nilly. Mmmm fire... I also think its a little late to try and put the djinni of companions back in the bottle. I agree with Cat we should instead try and focus on ways of ensuring that people who want a companion of any sort be allowed to get one. Yes running longer battles is a pain, but that's a small price to pay for balance in my view. I guess I'm saying I don't mind anyway. |
| sshuit12-23-03, 01:35 PM | Originally posted by Jindl [B @LLMadCow - Didn't we already say that you can't sunder with ranged weapons, especially with piercing ones? So how did you sunder a scroll with an arrow? It's against the rules. Instead of reposting all of the old debate, I'll try to find what pages of this thread it was discussed on a tell you where to look... -Jindl :D [/B] My Interpretation : Sundering a shield or weapon is with Bludgeoning or slashing weapon only. as per PHB Pg 158. Breaking other objects is a DM call. There's no reason a sling couldn't be used to "sunder" a vase, or an arrow couldn't be used to "sunder" a scroll. Putting a hole through it seems to be a pretty reasonable way to destroy it!.... In fact the PHB Page 165 states that Ranged weapons deal 1/2 damge when trying to "smash an object" It also talks about ineffective weapons (trying to cut a rope with a club) and vulnerability (ripping up a scroll) That's my $0.02 I was told by FluidDragon that he would ask about this rule prior to the fight... but since moderators changed I guess it got forgotten. |
| Magagumo12-23-03, 01:38 PM | Ha! I think companions and helpers could shorten these things.. if the fighter's intelligent sword lets him (finally) see the invisible wizard, maybe I won't have to run 20 rounds of buffing :P *Shurg* This is still working out to the "shake-down" treatment, where we all just see how leadership cohorts, mounts, skeletons, intelligent items, and the rest work out. I approve of you switching to Leadership Snark, I want to see that cleric :D Let's keep playing around with these rules, it seems to be evolving nicely. @Tharkos I believe spell components stand alone from the random treasure roll table. Generally, a druid is not forced to find a jade circlet worth 1500 (darn, this one is onl;y worth 1450 gp), but purchases one from a skileld craftsman. In the same way, these black onyx's are generally purchased from cities/towns that have the GP limit to provide them (I assume the arena will be sitting in a metropolis by the higher levels ^_~). For another example, take a look at the reqs for soul bind... I don't think any gem on the table can reach the upper limits of that spell (16,000 gem for 16HD creature), but 9th level suggests it should be very useful/powerful, not limited by the random gems tossed your way. Alos, noting the powerof the undead (which Jindl has covered admirably, but I wished to note one last thing), Moon-Moon's pegasus, Monk-Bane, is an intelligent, free-acting entity, which can move and attack and detect good/evil (as Ebelin how effective that can be). Meanwhile, Crimson Sunrise does only exactly what Harvester tells it to do, and that takes the cleric standard actions to do so. While it can certainly mete out a lot of punishment, it is actually slowing Harvester's move, and only gets one attack in anyways. When HArvester and Bruno were paired up, I noticed that it takes that zombie 50' to turn around, so Harvester had to move 100' a round and turn for normal attacks, and would not be able to charge every round, even with Ride-By Attack. As for my skeletons, they are monstrousbrutes, true, but they are similar grounded and mindless (I have to establish a careful list of instrictions, and generallyhave to take time to buff them with flight as well if my oppoennts like to take to the air). Snark and I have talked frequently of Bilo vs. Bruno, and it seems Tony would be less than useless (can't see invisible things, and the +0 to Spot means Bilo can keep hiding and sniping Bruno). But hey, this has all been said before, I'm just making sure the new people get a taste of the old roaring debate. @ Snark However you end up running the grand melee, know that I will be absent from the boards between Dec. 25th and Jan 4th (FLorida and all), so I'd appreicate it if this thing could be delayed til at lest then (maybe we could wait till school starts back up? With the better connections and the Verslingen?) @Tellish Hmm, so Brackin is evil.. bring him aboard, he need at least one good meleer.. and maybe two if Harvester is joining us (Your roleplay post is quite cryptic Cat) |
| Caterane12-23-03, 01:48 PM | @Mag: Originally posted by Caterane: Ebelin - as the only real member of Harmoneous Jade`s celestial forces - fights on the good side. The Harvester is not evil and doesn`t care about the pity meddling of mortals. Another thing about companions: Ebelin has none (except his weak familiar :bored: ) but he has always been one of the top gladiators ...well, until the prebuff rule :rolleyes: |
| Mercy12-23-03, 02:05 PM | @LLMadCow - thanks for running the fight. @sshuit - I'm not sure and I don't have time to look it up, but I believe an objects AC flexes based on if it's attended and the attendee has a better AC. @Mo - I won't be able to run any fights this week, but I'll be back next week. Happy Holidays |
| sshuit12-23-03, 02:19 PM | Originally posted by Mercy @sshuit - I'm not sure and I don't have time to look it up, but I believe an objects AC flexes based on if it's attended and the attendee has a better AC. I agree with that and in my calculations I gave it a dex bonus as well as a size bonus... I don't know how you get AC 19 from that. Should be 9 (base AC per DMG) + 4 your dex + 2 size (I said the scroll was cat sized... not so small as to be toad sized....) |
| Alathar Vierce12-23-03, 02:46 PM | Joyous another loss.. Just a note Mo, on Babar aren't you missing a feat? You get one for first level character and one for being a human. Depending what I come up with I might have a new version in his stead, but kinda of balancing on that as I'm in a win/win situation unfortunately :P |
| Jindl12-23-03, 02:55 PM | Re: Ranged Sundering is a No-No ... Okay, I had to re-read pages 14 - 50, but I finally found where we had this discussion. The result is that you cannot sunder with anything other than a melee bludg or slashing weapon. Please refer to pages 49-50 of this thread to read the entire discussion about this, and the conclusion that was reached. Sorry, but you simply cannot sunder a scroll with a ranged attack (though there is a feat in the CW that would let you make ranged sunders). -Jindl |
| Moherajikuyx12-23-03, 03:34 PM | Alathar - whoppity! Thanks! I made him an assimar before, I gotta check. I didn't understand what's the win/win situation. Originally posted by SnarkHunter @Thakros: I suspect we will be ignoring the onxy thing because it is [...] Please let's refrain from this kind of comments, ok? Tharkos is new here, I hope we didn't just lose him. New ideas shall always be welcome, and confrontation accepted with no fear. Now I know I erred too... Well, anyways, let's stop a flamewar before it starts. I also think its a little late to try and put the djinni of companions back in the bottle. Two things: one, I am quite for the allies myself (just check Iron's mount! ;)), I don't have too many problems with modding a 2vs2, and it makes this arena peculiar. But I want to hear from people their thoughts. And I hate when someone gets an advantage and, instead of discussing it, tries to keep it for himself like a politician, preventing normal minmaxing: this is why I'm favouring intelligent items and handled animals. Two, hard decision are always made in course. If I was a precog I would have put the limits to buyable allies only: pegasi, hippos and griffons, crafted and such. What about you? And, talking about hard decisions... Originally posted by Caterane ...well, until the prebuff ule :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :D Come Cat don't be bitter, Ebelin's in good company. I believe there are new hard decision that will have to be made to prevent this arena from becoming munchkinized, and thus diying like the old one did... I hope you will be with the long stick then :) - The held item AC is like told, its dexterity is the holder's dex if held, 0 otherwise. *Edit* Cat - the "weak" familiar?!? It can do 5d6 touch attacks, paralysis touch attacks, an spell touch attack... It has counters, but man how is it weak?!? Simply for the fact that one has to take care of the familiar makes it a powerful tool. Mercy - noted, good holidays to you too! |
| Jindl12-23-03, 03:37 PM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx The pet is not bought: he's reared and trained taking 10 on handle animal. If druids can find any animal companion for free, why shouldn't animal handlers? Mo - Druids (and rangers) don't just "find" their animal companion for free. They have to spend 24 hours in ritual prayer, calling for the companion. At the end of the ceremony, it shows up. You don't have to locate it, it comes to you (magically if necessary). It's a class feature. As forIron's mount, since it is not a class feature, I would say he is limited to what he can buy. Sure he can save money by training it himself (and the Circlet of Persuasion is a great idea :D), but he is still limited to what he can buy. And I think that definately rules out megaraptors. Also, no character has ever been able to have an advanced monster. So the advanced megaraptor is out, twice. -Jindl |
| Moherajikuyx12-23-03, 03:42 PM | Handle Animal is a class feature for barbarians, druids, fighters, paladins, rangers, and so on. The 24 hours ceremony is just a spell... With that line of reasoning we should allow free corpses that come automagically to the undead animators! Sorry Jindl, but if you want to cancel the handlers' advantages, you'll have to cancel the druids' too... And I'm so sorry druids can't have advanced companions by the last FAQ, really... ___________________________ Moherajikuyx, the Robin Hood of the arena |
| Jindl12-23-03, 04:01 PM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Handle Animal is a class feature for barbarians, druids, fighters, paladins, rangers, and so on. The 24 hours ceremony is just a spell... With that line of reasoning we should allow free corpses that come automagically to the undead animators! Sorry Jindl, but if you want to cancel the handlers' advantages, you'll have to cancel the druids' too... And I'm so sorry druids can't have advanced companions by the last FAQ, really... ___________________________ Moherajikuyx, the Robin Hood of the arena I never suggested that druids could or should have advanced versions of animals as their companions. To the contrary, I have always thought the companion was standard for its kind. Same should apply to animal handlers. Also, wasn't it your own rules which said that you can only get the mounts you can pay for? Please don't make me go back through the thread and find where you said that. Since megaraptors don't have a cost associated, you can't buy them (untrained or trained) and therefore I don't understand how you can rear one? And please, don't try to say that skills and spells and class features are all equal. They're not. Am I the only one who sees a problem with animal handlers getting advanced versions of MM creatures that do not have prices? -Jindl |
| Alathar Vierce12-23-03, 04:02 PM | Win/Win meaning whether I win or lose I advance a level :) Still not sure what to say about the companions etc as anymore its not a test between two characters, but rather who can come up with the better companion. |
| MotherBast12-23-03, 04:18 PM | I also see a problem with the "advanced" Megaraptor. If it is impossible for a cohort to be advanced, why can a megaraptor be? If you ever got tired of your megaraptor, and Candy wanted it, would it suddenly be unadvanced? We have ruled against alowing advanced creatures already. Everything must be as listed in the MM, with no advancement. I remember this ruling once, on purchased mounts. So now if you sell your megaraptor the the arena stabels, and then Hanz comes along to buy it, now its not advanced again..... But wait, Hanz can't buy it, because it has no listed price. If it has no price, how did Iron purchas one for rearing? If I am not mistakin, Jindl is right, and that mount breaks not one, but two preestablished arena rules. To be able to rear a mount, you still must be able to aquire it. It is foolish to think you could simply aquire a megaraptor, when it can't be bought. Then, no one would ever "buy" horses either, they would just rear someting at first level for free. Heck, even a horse, since I don't see why someone couln't rear it without buying it, since you are rearing the megaraptor without buying it. No, this is obviously silly. Rearing your own mount would decress the price, as you were paying only for the young version, but it would not alow you to obtain anyting for free. No one gives away baby megaraptors. |
| Tharkos12-23-03, 04:40 PM | Originally posted by Magagumo Meanwhile, Crimson Sunrise does only exactly what Harvester tells it to do, and that takes the cleric standard actions to do so. While it can certainly mete out a lot of punishment, it is actually slowing Harvester's move, and only gets one attack in anyways. When HArvester and Bruno were paired up, I noticed that it takes that zombie 50' to turn around, so Harvester had to move 100' a round and turn for normal attacks, and would not be able to charge every round, even with Ride-By Attack. How come Harvester managed to cast a Hold Person spell in round 1 then in the 1 round fight ? He should have spent his "standard action" on "riding" the dragon. If he could have given that command ahead of time its almost like a buff ahead of time. How far does this go anyway ? If the dragon zombie is flying ... does he need to spend a standard action every round to direct the turns the dragon needs to make ? Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Please let's refrain from this kind of comments, ok? Tharkos is new here, I hope we didn't just lose him. New ideas shall always be welcome, and confrontation accepted with no fear. Now I know I erred too... Well, anyways, let's stop a flamewar before it starts. I am still thinking on my character (VERY tough choice for that one design) and since I have a complicated mind and love unusual and indirect ways to win it will be some time. Too bad that Charm Person doesnt work well enough here ... I wont be turned away by words, but rather by illogical stuff happening and clearly "over the top" stuff. |
| Moherajikuyx12-23-03, 04:54 PM | AV, I agree, it has to change, sadly for some characters. Mb, I'm pretty sure we only spoke about class leveled cohorts. I would be quite willing to accept advanced cohorts, since it doesn't make them a lot heavier to moderate; while classes do. The druids can't have advanced animals by the rules, it's not an arena house rule, check the last wizards FAQ. If, instead, the problem here is about finding mounts for free, that pop with no risk in the arena, then I agree, this has to stop. For everyone. I'm finally setting up a pair of votes, and counting the votes for the still unclosed polls. In particular, 8c, about the cost for corpses is quite unsure, I'd like the new ones to go to the polls thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=114957) and vote. |
| Ethendril12-23-03, 05:09 PM | @Mo: Would you like to change the way we calculate xp? Your poll asks about calculating xp, rather than HP... |
| LLMadCow12-23-03, 05:16 PM | It is time for me to beat a dead horse and then stand up on my podium..... or visa/versa. The Core Arena is supposed to be a little something for everyone. All builds should be able to be tested fully, and nothing held back. That being said, let me point of a few of the COUNTLESS problems that we will always have unless changes are made. YES, these changes would make life a little more difficult, but accurate. How can a druid use their spell ability to teleport from tree to tree if there are no trees? Or what good does it do them to be able to take the form of a tree? What good is darkvision if there are no shadows? What good would a Shadowdancer be? What good are aquatic PCs if there is no water? What good is woodland stride if the Ranger has no woods to stride through? Why have profession? Why have craft to save some money of one or two items? Nothing better to spend those points on? There are so many aspects of character builds that is never used. So, you ask, what suggestions do I have? 1 - The Arena should have variable environments. Make a list of several different environmental changes, and let each player pick one. Split the arena into portions and go from there. The Druid vs Barbarian would end up with some trees and such as well as some nice open flatland. Add rivers and heavy undergrowth, more obstacles for rogues, less obstacles for chargers, darkness, brightness, walls, platforms, cityscape, etc. There are so many different environments to look at. Come up with some basic standards and make them simple. Let people pick their playground and see if people can be lured into the arena. (Also, consider makeing a draw an option if things are going long term and get too drawn out; more on that) 2 - Let people earn money from Profession and craft skills. Make them a little more useful and not a complete waste. I have had characters with nothing better to do than use a craft. I have mentioned this 3 times now, and I really wish people would really consider it. This benefits everyone and is reflective of an unused aspect of the characters. 3 - Quick run procedures. How many times have the Moderators run into round after round of miss, miss, miss, miss, miss, hit! We need some format to calculate odds and go with that. Yes, that takes luck out of it some, but there is no reason to run a battle out for 90+ rounds. If I know that player A needs a 19 or 20 to hit, and player B needs a 20 to hit, over the course of the next 60 rounds, I go with Rounds 1 - 20, Player A hits 2x and B hits 1x. Roll damage and move on. Some small mitigating factors must be looked at, but it is realistic. Why make modding any harder than it has to be. 4 - Standard Tactics sheet - We need one. I can make one for review if need be. 5 - Companions and Mounts. Why castrate PCs more than they already are? Give them mounts and companions and undead and intelligent items and everything! Everyone is allowed 1 ALLY. Make parameters - it isn't that hard. If Iron can beat down a Mamma Megaraptor, he can have that egg. Otherwise no, not unless it has a sale price somewhere. You want a corpse? Kill it or buy it. Lets figure out how. 6 - Onyx limited in size and value? My *$$! Every stone will have an average size found in real life, but there are always MAGICALLY CREATED ITEMS! LOOK MA! I JUST MADE A HUGE DIAMOND! Bwa-ha-ha! 7 - Hit Dice. Max at level one and (Max + 1)/2 every level after. List the exact amount and for fights rouynd down as needed. So that 4th level wizard has 4 + 2.5 + 2.5 + 2.5 = 11.5. In the fight he has 11 and next level he has 14. It is that easy and that fair! Feel free to flame me, praise me, berate me - as needed. I have more thoughts, but I am off to celebrate my mothers birthday. :) |
| Ethendril12-23-03, 05:24 PM | 1 - The Arena should have variable environments. Make a list of several different environmental changes, and let each player pick one. Split the arena into portions and go from there. The Druid vs Barbarian would end up with some trees and such as well as some nice open flatland. Add rivers and heavy undergrowth, more obstacles for rogues, less obstacles for chargers, darkness, brightness, walls, platforms, cityscape, etc. There are somany different environments to look at. Come up with some basic standards and make them simple. Let people pick their playground and see if people can be lured into the arena. (Also, consider makeing a draw an option if things are going long term and get too drawn out; more on that) I think this is a cool idea. What if there were a few different types of arena? One could be the standard arena, one a forested area, one with water, etc., and you didn't know which you would compete in. Some might be better for rogues, others for fighters, others for casters, and you wouldn't know which until pairings came. You would then have to have good tactics for whatever came your way. Even if it's just all incorporated in one arena, it sounds cool. Interesting idea. Ethendril |
| Moherajikuyx12-23-03, 05:30 PM | Thanks Ethendril :blush: Way to go LL! Only thing Id advise against would be making variable environments, it would mean a HUGE amount of work for the moderators, and they're already oberated. We already told that the arena is the "minimum for everything", so the pillars are trees for what concerns the druid spell ability, they make shadows for what concerns the hide in shadows, and so on. And more important of all, beat Silvio Berlusconi, the dead horse! :rofl: *edit* A really nice idea that was told here, is the "let's decide where we start with dice" thing. That simple thing, not knowing where one starts, makes things really different! |
| sshuit12-23-03, 05:51 PM | Was this issue ever put to a vote?... Because why on earth would you "deal 1/2 damage with ranged weapons" if ranged weapons can't be used to smash objects? The PHB states "Generally you can smash an object only with a bludgeoning or slashing weapon" p.165 It also states that "Objects take 1/2 damage from ranged weapons. Divide the damage by 2 before applying the object's hardness" p.165 and that the DM needs to adjudicate on "ineffective weapons" and "vulnerabilities" I even found scroll sizes as Diminutive : AC +4.... So.... according to the rules as I interpret them you could definitely use a sling (bludgeoning) to destroy a scroll and I would even adjudicate (as a DM in my campaign) that piercing a scroll would ruin it so even a piercing weapon such as an arrow would be suitable. Now of course I wouldn't allow an arrow to sunder a sword, or a shield... that's just common sense. Likewise I wouldn't allow a club to sunder a rope....... Originally posted by Jindl Re: Ranged Sundering is a No-No ... Okay, I had to re-read pages 14 - 50, but I finally found where we had this discussion. The result is that you cannot sunder with anything other than a melee bludg or slashing weapon. Please refer to pages 49-50 of this thread to read the entire discussion about this, and the conclusion that was reached. Sorry, but you simply cannot sunder a scroll with a ranged attack (though there is a feat in the CW that would let you make ranged sunders). -Jindl |
| Caterane12-23-03, 05:57 PM | The Arena should have variable environments. I already suggested somethin similar 4 years ago ...or something. I also realize the difficulty in having different arenas but I came up with something. What about that: We use the standard arena sheet as it is now but every character has his Favored terrain, listed on his sheet. These terrains include something like forest, desert, city, arena, mountain (climb!), plain, and perhaps many more. There can be additional preferences like illumination level, weather, etc. We have to make slight adjustments to the setting but once developed they are set. Like in a football match there are now home games and away matches: if your character stands at the first position on the pairings roster then he has a home match which means the arena uses his favored terrain. Let people earn money from Profession and craft skills. Make them a little more useful and not a complete waste. Agreed. Skill points in profession and craft should result in some income. After all you spent points on that which are pretty useless once you created your masterwork armor. This is part of the character as anything else. How I would pay to see Candessa Perform (striptease) :drool: Companions and Mounts. Why castrate PCs more than they already are? Give them mounts and companions and undead and intelligent items and everything! I completely agree. Good work LL. I hope others find it as appealing as I do. @Mo: I have serious problems with my computer. He opens around 50 internet pages at once. It takes a while to close them but not long until they open again. Even when closed my system is nearly working at full capacity and I have no means to change this. Blabla what I want to say is that I might have problems in showing up if I don`t find any solution. |
| Tharkos12-23-03, 06:07 PM | From the "Complete Warrior" (WotC NON-CORE): Feats: Ranged Sunder Prerequisites: Str 13, Point blank Shot, Precise Shot, BAB +5. Benefit: When attacking object, you deal full damage (instead of half damage) with slashing or bludgeoning ranged weapons. You can make ranged sunder attempts with piercing weapons, such as arrows, but you only deal half damage; .... Normal: Objects take half damage from ranged weapons (other than siege engines and the like). ..... I hope this helps convincing people that the half damage thing is the "right way" for core-only builds. This feat is non-core. forest, desert, city, arena, mountain (climb!), plain, and perhaps many more. "City" should be without the inside of houses or that is going to be a huge pain for everyone who has to moderate it. "Castle" would be the same. I would think splitting the arena in half would be best so everyone has his favored terrain, because it is ONE WIN TO LEVEL and no rematches ... "Home ground" is only fair for championships where you do get a rematch. Track, listen, darkvision and other skills will become useful this way ... you could even add a "caves-level" where you have several interconnected caves or a swamp or ... |
| Caterane12-23-03, 06:23 PM | If you split the arena in two then you haven`t won anything except strengthen casters even more. The rogue and the wizard will just stay in their terrain and never even think of moving on the other side. Home and Away is part of the luck like getting Jindl as opponoment, or Irlina :D Or the setting is determined randomly so no one gets an advantage except for luck. And the Craft/Profession income depends on the skill modifier. |
| Jindl12-23-03, 08:08 PM | Iku Rex challenged Sir Roger (sshuit), but he declined. Is he wiser than I give him credit for??? "Very well, then Jagath Kihr, bounty hunter of men, I, Iku Rex, challenge you to face me in combat. What say you?" -Jindl @Tharkos - thanks for posting that excerpt from the CW. Based on reading it, I would allow ranged sunder attempts with bludgeoning or slashing weapons (throwing axes, throwing hammers, slings, etc). Note: You still cannot sunder with an bow/crossbow, because these are piercing weapons. |
| LLMadCow12-23-03, 10:52 PM | Further Thoughts on: Point 1, Variable Environments Possible environments could include: Aquatic - A watery domain made up of Ocean, Sea or River. Possibly includes beach, piers, deltas, island, etc. City/Castle - A structured domain made up of walls and roads; brick, stone, wood. Possibly some stairs, ladders, ledges, etc. Desert - A sandy domain; rather barren except for a few trees/bushes and the occassional oasis. Possibly some sand pits. Forest - A woodsy domain with variety of trees and undergrowth. Possibly some hollow trees, streams, etc. Hills - A grassy and rocky domain with some dips and rises. Possible line of sight onstructions and tal grasses. Jungle - A wildly think plant and tree domain. Possibly impassable terrain except for some clear paths; river/lake possible. Marsh - A nasty, smelly domain filled with muck and mire. Trees, water, and pit falls possible. Moors - A swampy/plain domain. Possibly unstable environment. Mountains - A rocky domain. Possibility of rocks, cliffs, caves, rock slides, etc. Plains - A wide open domain. Possibility of a few trees or other misc landscaping, but primarily a flat plain of grassland. Tundra - A wide open domain with no trees or vegetation. Underground - A domain of darkness and shadows. Possibility of underground rivers, mazes and torch-lit hallways. Note: All movement speeds would be modified according to table 9-5, PHB. All of the environments could be combined to form one area. examples: Castle/City + Aquatic = The docks. Hills + Jungle = A rolling jungle with some clearings. Plains + Swamp = Moors. Some wide open field with puddles and small lakes. Underground + Castle/City = Stone streets and some catacombs. Mountains + Aquatic = Rocks and cliff faces with a wide river, or up against a beach. There are tons of possibilities, it just requires a little creativity on the part of the Moderator. Edit1 - To make things interesting, you could split the arena into two halves and simply make the PCs start centered in their opponents chosen environment. Edit2 - The environment would not have to split the arena down the center. Aquatic + Jungle could be a small island surrounded by water or a small section of jungle with a lake in the middle or a river running through it. :cool: |
| LLMadCow12-23-03, 11:12 PM | Further Thoughts on: Point 2, Craft and Profession Think Core Arena Marketplace Each character has a single editable post to sell their wares. Or better yet, why not simply have a built in Standard Earnings Calculation as well as Standard Cost Adjustment based off of who has what ability within the arena. Examples of Standard Cost Adjustment: Cliodhna Scribes Scrolls at 7/10 cost, so any player in the arena could buy a scroll she can scribe at 8.5/10 cost. Herrix Ignatius Crafts Armor at 1/2 cost, so any player in the arena could buy armor he can craft at 7.5/10 cost. Examples of Standard Earnings Calculation: Herrix Ignatius has Craft Armor modifier of +10. Every week he [Takes 10] on his craft check and earns [10 x (Modifier + 10)] = 200gp. This is not unbalancing and lets the PCs make use of the skills. If a PC has several Craft and/or Profession skills, they can earn money from each. The most a PC would end up earning would be something like: 2 Craft Skills at 10 Ranks + Int Bonus 4 + MW Tools + Take 10 or 2 x [(10 + 4 + 2 + 10) x 10] = 520gp per week for a level 7PC. |
| sshuit12-23-03, 11:24 PM | Let me be the first to break this : My rogue with 18 int. Takes 1 rank of 20 different craft skills at level 1. :) Buy 20 sets of MW tools for my starting 1000 gp. I now craft at take 10+4 int +1 rank +2 MW tools = 17 or 70gp per craft skill. 70 * 20 craft skills is 1400gp per week. That's 400 GP net after 1 week and 1400gp extra cash in my pocket every week after that. WooHoo! Beers are on me! In this environment I can't help but think that this will be a HUGE difference. Even 50gp seems like a lot at the moment for my characters. Originally posted by LLMadCow Further Thoughts on: Point 2, Craft and Profession Herrix Ignatius has Craft Armor modifier of +10. Every week he [Takes 10] on his craft check and earns [10 x (Modifier + 10)] = 200gp. |
| Alathar Vierce12-23-03, 11:47 PM | I may be wrong but I thought the skill check made for profession/craft represented a week of work, so you would only be able to spend enough time to do one craft. |
| Alterlat12-24-03, 12:35 AM | On craft skills: If these are allowed, there would have to be something to prevent characters who sit out simply building up the cash, then coming back to crush everyone. Don't allow people to earn money from professions/crafting if they aren't fighting. @Jindl: Challenge accepted "I'm sick of all these cursed dwarves - beating up some pansy angelspawn might be a nice change." - Jagath |
| Alathar Vierce12-24-03, 02:27 AM | You know.. Its rather hard at this point to come up with a real original idea lol :) |
| Arstimis12-24-03, 04:02 AM | Just a comment on the different terrain for the arenas. I am assuming the players would know the terrain before they sent in thier tactics. Otherwise it would be impossible for any player to create legit tactics. I think putting fights in these type of environments would add some good flavor, but it would make some fights a battle between the player and the terrain and another player. The random terrain idea, in my eyes, seems like more trouble that it is worth. It think the arena should stay as it is. Also..something about people having allies in a gladiator fight does not seem right. As someone else mentioned it becomes a battle to see who can come up with the best ally. Which in itself takes away from the idea of gladiator fights. So far it seems like the best ally would be an undead one, and the only way to get that would to be evil, which puts most good people at a disadvantage |
| Tharkos12-24-03, 04:03 AM | Originally posted by Jindl @Tharkos - thanks for posting that excerpt from the CW. Based on reading it, I would allow ranged sunder attempts with bludgeoning or slashing weapons (throwing axes, throwing hammers, slings, etc). Note: You still cannot sunder with an bow/crossbow, because these are piercing weapons. I thought the feat description clearly states that you can use ranged sunder with blunt and slashing ranged weapons AFTER TAKING THE FEAT. Since it isnt part of the core rules it should NOT be available then and ranged sundering not be able. If you want to destroy a magic item you need a spell for it or another damaging effect which can be targetted on the item (or fireball and hope he rolls a 1 on his save). On the topic of craft skills / item creation enabling people to get extra money I would advise against it. Simply for the reasons already stated in that it might enable people to get too much equipment by waiting. Another reason is the simple fact that it makes things too complicated to keep track of. |
| Caterane12-24-03, 04:27 AM | Terrains: We could still make it optional with a test phase. If you need a mod I`ll volunteer. Craft/Profession: Some simple rules on that eleminate all mentioned problems. 1) A character who sits out 1 week due to any policy we have gets a little bonus income, why not? This only applies the first week of being inactive after which time the character is moved to the inactive graveyard. 2) You can only earn from one craft/profession skill in a given week. It`s like having one full time job. 3) 200Gp doesn`t seem too much for me. It`s a nice bonus - not even one 2nd lvl potion - and since everyone may get it I see no problem there. 4) We can always make additional rules to further balance it, perhaps a level cap, or :lightgoeson: ah yes, like standard and move actions you can only do so much a week: if you have crafted a magic item you cannot do your job. This would be another shift for the fighters who never craft something else than their craft skill. Originally posted by Alterlat @Jindl: Challenge accepted "I'm sick of all these cursed dwarves - beating up some pansy angelspawn might be a nice change." - Jagath ;) |
| Tharkos12-24-03, 06:41 AM | Here are two other reasons why extra gold from skills and item creation is a bad idea IMO: 1. If you define "1 week as 1 week" you need to figure in the time needed to create some item. This week might not be a problem for simple "get gold for the week" jobs, but once you start looking at specific items you have to do it. This means that any magic item whose price is higher than 6.000 gold in the DMG will FORCE the creator not to take part in any arena battles that week because it takes 1 day per 1.000 gold to create an item. One week is 6 "work days" and 1 day for the arena fight ... and that would be true if you wanted to make it for yourself as well, which at the moment does NOT cause you to skip a week of fighting. Just imagine how sucky a caster would feel if he gets an order (or make it for himself) for a 100.000 gold piece item ... skip the next 14 weeks of duels ? 2. If you start figuring out the possible gains for craft skills you have to do it separately for each skill because the profit margin for the different professions is different. And why not add knowledge skills to the list of skills which can make a profit as well ? Many adventurers consult learned sages to get information .... In the end it will just get too complicated. For the "City" terrain I would think it can be done pretty easily, just place a few houses with doors in the arena. Just "draw" the walls, windows and put two (? one on each side ?) doors in it. Snipers could use the windows to actually snipe and rogues could start locking the (previously unlocked) doors behind them. More skill applications ... There could even be "civilians" in the street, which will cause you to loose the fight if you accidentally kill them. |
| Moherajikuyx12-24-03, 06:41 AM | I take back the vest of the moderator now. terrain There's a lot of good ideas here circling. But we've got to keep the moderators workload balanced, too. So, I say, let's use these ideas but let them optional, and use it only as fluff, to help the moderators find unique environments. The obstacles in the city/marsh/plain/... will be placed exactly where the arena obstacles are. To better represent the thing we can place a bigger "random obstacle" in the middle, which is not only fluff, that will be a pond/vulcano/magma geyser/lunar crater/antimagic field :D/... depending on the combination of the two favoured terrains. Check out the "random obstacle" proposal in the arena in 5 minutes (it's a proposal, so mods don't use it this week). crafts Let's do it. As many already pointed out, inactives shall not earn money. To keep things going, please let me organize this idea. Crafting rules: those with craft, profession and similar skills will get 1 week worth of money after any match. This way the moderators have the chance of checking out that money too: the number of fights is the sum of losses and wins. I know it's not a perfect representation (wizos will probably craft objects and magic items), but it easies things a lot for the moderators. As no one told anything against the idea, I'm adding it to the rules. *Edit* I just noticed that this idea helps a bit the losing pcs, which is fine with me. A pc who lost 3 times will have more "total used money" than ne who lost less times at the same level, helping somewhat with the higher expenses. allies I think we can rationalize things better. My proposals are: 1. any choice for anyone (animal handlers/corpse animators find the animals to handle for free [see below, monster fights] like druids and paladins). 2. no choice for no one (only bought stuff, paladins and druids have to buy their mounts/companions before declaring them such) 3. Jindl's proposal is: let things as they are now (only druids and paladins get stuff for free) (I'll edit this when he replies if I got it wrong :)) I believe that my proposal n. 1 is the best representing this arena feeling, and the way it's developing into (I believe we allowed for more choices during time). I'm waiting feedback, if the proposals are correct and there is no one else with proposals, I'll put the thing to vote. If this is correct, shall we vote? Monster fights LL's idea is really cool, he expressed it with less enphasis than needed. This can be combined with another cool idea that circled some time ago: monster fights. To rear the megaraptor pupp, Iron will have to defeat the megamama, right? We could make the animal handlers/corpse animators fight for their stuff before using it! This will make them use resources, to get the chance of having the corpse/the animal pupp. The formula we're adopting now (clerics, the majority is still for 100*CR^2 :(, so you better vote this ;)) is heavily fighted upon, and is not core. Fighting for the thing, I believe, is a really cool idea! It will let the resources be used instead than the formula, and it will permit Cat to understand that dragons don't wait riders to charge them :D (I offer myself to design and run the dragon chosen - a red, right?) This also gives druids and paladins their righful advantage of not having to fight for the mount/companion, as god/nature hands it. *Edit* also, as most of the pcs with these allies is waiting at lvl 9, we got time to do those fights! :) We can do it in the usual way - sending the tactics to a mod, who runs the fight - but I think the better way would be if the player directly runs his character. This would be really slow if we don't find a moderator in the same time zone, but that is not hard with our numbers! After we do this for at least a week, we could also permit people to go after templated and advanced things: let's see who beats the half-fiend advanced monster to get his corpse! (this is not in the above proposal, it's just a further idea) Has anyone anything against this idea? *kicks the balll and goes to eat* |
| Caterane12-24-03, 08:18 AM | So, I say, let's use these ideas but let them optional, and use it only as fluff, to help the moderators find unique environments. The obstacles in the city/marsh/plain/... will be placed exactly where the arena obstacles are. Glad you are open to these modifications, Mo. As I already said, it should be optional. If a gladiator doesn`t want to fight there he may post it on his sheet (something like "Arena only"). But I would modify these new enviroments so that they are different from the arena else there is no much gain for the pain. Crafting rules: those with craft skills will get 1 week money after any match. This way the moderators have the chance of checking out that money too: the number of fights is the sum of losses and wins. Not to forget Profession (lecturer). The amount of money should depend on the skill mod. Monster fights I`m not sure if I did understand this correctly. I may decide wether I fight it or buy it using the formula we`re about to vote on? Anyway, the monster fight idea is a great one!! |
| Moherajikuyx12-24-03, 08:52 AM | Originally posted by Caterane Glad you are open to these modifications, Mo. As I already said, it should be optional. If a gladiator doesn`t want to fight there he may post it on his sheet (something like "Arena only"). But I would modify these new enviroments so that they are different from the arena else there is no much gain for the pain. Of course I'm open to modifications! My (way simpler and poorer) idea, of the "only fluff + a central obstacle", is just to make things going. When anyone designs a new arena and it gets approved by people, of course we'll be able to use it! The effort of the proposed thing is not a lot though: it's just adding a favoured terrain in the sheet, and the mod decides from that what's the central obstacle and the nature of the other obstacles. About the monster fights - check the votes: the current most voted price for corpses is 100+CR^2, not 100*delta^2, even though the number of posts that tried to launch the last price to public: your dragon's expensive... I think we should make it fights only (which, by the way, not only is more fun, but also is more similar to the delta thing) |
| LLMadCow12-24-03, 09:06 AM | @ALL - SOMEONE PLEASE E-MAIL ME THE MINI WORD DOCUMENT VERSION OF THE CORE ARENA! |
| Jindl12-24-03, 11:08 AM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx I take back the vest of the moderator now. terrain There's a lot of good ideas here circling. But we've got to keep the moderators workload balanced, too. So, I say, let's use these ideas but let them optional, and use it only as fluff, to help the moderators find unique environments. The obstacles in the city/marsh/plain/... will be placed exactly where the arena obstacles are. To better represent the thing we can place a bigger "random obstacle" in the middle, which is not only fluff, that will be a pond/vulcano/magma geyser/lunar crater/antimagic field :D/... depending on the combination of the two favoured terrains. Check out the "random obstacle" proposal in the arena in 5 minutes (it's a proposal, so mods don't use it this week). I am not opposed to the large random obstacle. I assume the size will be 15x15? The only game mechanics impact I see is that 1 round kills disappear, giving people more time to buff, and requiring people to have better spot/listen checks. All of these effects seem more like a real campaign to me, so I'm fine with the fluff + a real 15x15 obstacle in the middle. Originally posted by Moherajikuyx crafts Let's do it. As many already pointed out, inactives shall not earn money. To keep things going, please let me organize this idea. Crafting rules: those with craft, profession and similar skills will get 1 week worth of money after any match. This way the moderators have the chance of checking out that money too: the number of fights is the sum of losses and wins. I know it's not a perfect representation (wizos will probably craft objects and magic items), but it easies things a lot for the moderators. As no one told anything against the idea, I'm adding it to the rules. *Edit* I just noticed that this idea helps a bit the losing pcs, which is fine with me. A pc who lost 3 times will have more "total used money" than ne who lost less times at the same level, helping somewhat with the higher expenses. I would suggest only paying on their highest craft/profession skill. It's not like they can work more than one job. And I want to remind everyone that even though they are getting one week's worth of wages, there is actually no specified time between matches. It could have been years since their last fight (time to make that mithral plate mail = 2 years), but we are only giving them a weeks worth of income. As long as this is understood, I'm okay with it. Originally posted by Moherajikuyx allies I think we can rationalize things better. My proposals are: 1. any choice for anyone (animal handlers/corpse animators find the animals to handle for free [see below, monster fights] like druids and paladins). 2. no choice for no one (only bought stuff, paladins and druids have to buy their mounts/companions before declaring them such) 3. Jindl's proposal is: let things as they are now (only druids and paladins get stuff for free) (I'll edit this when he replies if I got it wrong :)) I believe that my proposal n. 1 is the best representing this arena feeling, and the way it's developing into (I believe we allowed for more choices during time). I'm waiting feedback, if the proposals are correct and there is no one else with proposals, I'll put the thing to vote. If this is correct, shall we vote? You are correct, my current stance is that allies granted by class features (not skills), are acquired at the listed price (free for druids and paladins, 100gp for familiars, spell cost for other types). Cohorts are obtained for free, but their equipment is paid for by the PC. Animals aquired and trained/reared must be bought, and thus the list is limited to what you can buy. And of course, constructs and magic items allies must be purchased or crafted as normal. Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Monster fights LL's idea is really cool, he expressed it with less enphasis than needed. This can be combined with another cool idea that circled some time ago: monster fights. To rear the megaraptor pupp, Iron will have to defeat the megamama, right? We could make the animal handlers/corpse animators fight for their stuff before using it! This will make them use resources, to get the chance of having the corpse/the animal pupp. The formula we're adopting now (clerics, the majority is still for 100*CR^2 :(, so you better vote this ;)) is heavily fighted upon, and is not core. Fighting for the thing, I believe, is a really cool idea! It will let the resources be used instead than the formula, and it will permit Cat to understand that dragons don't wait riders to charge them :D (I offer myself to design and run the dragon chosen - a red, right?) This also gives druids and paladins their righful advantage of not having to fight for the mount/companion, as god/nature hands it. *Edit* also, as most of the pcs with these allies is waiting at lvl 9, we got time to do those fights! :) We can do it in the usual way - sending the tactics to a mod, who runs the fight - but I think the better way would be if the player directly runs his character. This would be really slow if we don't find a moderator in the same time zone, but that is not hard with our numbers! After we do this for at least a week, we could also permit people to go after templated and advanced things: let's see who beats the half-fiend advanced monster to get his corpse! (this is not in the above proposal, it's just a further idea) Has anyone anything against this idea? *kicks the balll and goes to eat* I also like LLMadCow's idea. I am strongly in favor of going this route, to replace "buying" corpses, and finding animals to train. As you said, druids and paladins (and wizards summoning familiars), would be exempt from needing to fight. And if you purchase the mount (like buying a griffon), then you wouldn't have to fight either. Fighting would get you corpses for necromancy, and allow you to rear/train animals that don't have prices. I am hesistant to open this up to templated and advanced creatures, because they are uber-rare and only appear in a game if a DM places one there. But for all regular monsters/animals I like this proposal. The fight for the ally would occur in place of your normal arena match. It would take place in the "arena" (use whatever fluff you want), and the standard arena rules would be in effect (free repair, only one ally, etc). The rewards would be different. Instead of gaining a level and some cash, you get your ally. If you fail, you are restored as normal, but any equip you spent (potions, scrolls, arrows, etc) is not replaced for free. So basically, instead of fighting another gladiator for a level and some money, you fight a monster to make it your ally. This sounds great to me. It would have to be announced before pairings of course. And I recommend that one of the senior mod's review the fight before it is finalized. But, within these constraints, I say "let's do it!" -Jindl EDIT: @Mo - I can handle 1 fight this week, as long as I get the tactics on time. Cat has agreed to mod the fight between Iku Rex and Jagath Kihr (challenge match). Iku is ready for this week. Pairings will be soon, I suppose? |
| Moherajikuyx12-24-03, 11:32 AM | :OMG! Me and Jindl agree on everything! :angel: must be Xmas! :angel: Merry Christmas to everyone! Answers: 1. the size is a proposal; 2. yes you got it right; 3. great! Edit: 4. pairings this night, I hope Santa doesn't get angry and brings the gifts even though I don't go to bed early :) Also: everyone, be sure to set the sheet post subject line to Ready for Xmas to be set to ready! :cloud9: |
| Alathar Vierce12-24-03, 11:43 AM | Some of the changes sound like great additions, well to me as a player. Cadion I believe is sitting out this week as I'm trying to revise him, *might* be done before pairings if not oh well i'll have break to devise a plan :) |
| Tharkos12-24-03, 12:43 PM | Originally posted by LLMadCow @ALL - SOMEONE PLEASE E-MAIL ME THE MINI WORD DOCUMENT VERSION OF THE CORE ARENA! Just copy/paste it from the thread. It worked for the character sheet. You just need to take care to keep the font. |
| MotherBast12-24-03, 04:06 PM | About the topics going floating around right now.... I like the tarrain Idea, but only if the different types of tarain can all fit on the standard arena map. Basicly, the trees are where the pillars should be, so forth and so on. Of course, it was already a simple matter to do this, as we were assuming the arena was generic, and that it possesed enough of everything to make everything work. So if the Druid needed the stones to be trees, then they were trees. If the wizard then needed the same stone to be a rock, it was a rock. Besides, Ive seen bolders under trees before, so its not that big a stretch to say the square has a bolder and a tree in it. Really, from a role-play perspective, which I know we try to avoid but here it is, The "Arena" itself is in this huge city, which I think someone named Arenatown. This city is obvioulsy as welthy and heavly populated as possible, as evidenced by the fact that anything can be bought there, and hundreds of thousands of people have visited the arena. If the arena is that welthy, it would be no problem for them to employ the correct people to set up the arena to the conditions of the gladiators every fight. They could emply high level Druid groundskeepers, Wizard Transmutaters, so forth and so on. The arena could simply be assumed to always have exactly what the player specifies he needs in his tactics. No need for his sheet to have a favored tarain. If his tactics call for treestride, then he obviously wants trees in the arena. So for him, the stones are trees. As far as random weather and lighting conditions, this has the possibility of crippling certan characters. An archer who gets a bad weather roll is doomed. A character with no means of seeing in the dark is dead if he has to fight in the dark. A person with darkvision who fights in daylight, however, can still see fine. So this would go from something that never had an impact on a fight to something that could make or break a fight before it starts. I would strongly caution against this. I also agree with Jindl that Druids/Pallys should get there companions/mounts free. Leadership whould also "give" the allie for free, but any gear it has would be paid for by the gladiator. Any allie attanined though any skill must still be purchased, and so must be on the list of purchasable creatures. Spells that create allies should be limited to the cost of the componits, in the case of undead that is the gem and the corpse, which now that I think about it, its easy to assume the dreaded "bonesnatchers" guild will have access to just about any corpse you need, for a price. So I really see no reason one should have to defeat the creature first, when arena history already gives access to a group with all the corpses we will ever need. I do like the idea of monster battles though, just for fun. I like MO's idea on how to handel profession/craft and so forth. You only make the money after a fight, win or loose. That prevents abuse by people who sit out. However, the charts listed in the book say a Profession would result in 1/2 th check result in gold in one week.... so even a 20 in profession, with a take 10 roll, would only give 15 gold in one week. So to assume that only one week esists between fights really hampers one's gold production with a skill. Perhaps its better if we establish an offical length of time that exists between matches, and that will be the amount of time one uses on crafts/performe/profession and so forth. That same amount of time could also be used to put a "cap" on the number of scroll/items/equipmet gladiators are crafting for themselves between fights. I would also agree, that anyone suggest that anyone who uses a skill to craft anything for himself must take that much time off of his total gold gained for the week with the skill, to represent the time he/she spent not working for profit. Humm.... that about covers it I think, looking forward to the parings |
| Tharkos12-24-03, 05:46 PM | Originally posted by MotherBast Basicly, the trees are where the pillars should be, so forth and so on. Of course, it was already a simple matter to do this, as we were assuming the arena was generic, and that it possesed enough of everything to make everything work. So if the Druid needed the stones to be trees, then they were trees. If the wizard then needed the same stone to be a rock, it was a rock. Only switching out a few rocks for a few trees isnt going to make a big impact. Some people might like a pretty dense forest and burning the forest to make someone come out of hiding is a viable tactic IMO. Originally posted by MotherBast As far as random weather and lighting conditions, this has the possibility of crippling certan characters. An archer who gets a bad weather roll is doomed. A character with no means of seeing in the dark is dead if he has to fight in the dark. A person with darkvision who fights in daylight, however, can still see fine. So this would go from something that never had an impact on a fight to something that could make or break a fight before it starts. I would strongly caution against this. The whole point is to have your character be able to face different conditions and become more flexible. Life is never certain and in any RPG you can have fights in sunshine, during rain, storm or worse, above or below ground, in the air, ... If people focus all their power into one method of attack and it gets negated somehow they are pretty screwed. Things like Darkvision are next to useless if its always daylight with sunny conditions, there isnt even a spell to simulate night because Darkness also negates Darkvision. Originally posted by MotherBast Perhaps its better if we establish an offical length of time that exists between matches, and that will be the amount of time one uses on crafts/performe/profession and so forth. As I already pointed out, once you set the time length between the arena fights you will have to take that into account for item creation. For some items it might not be enough when the time comes (unless its some semi-ridiculous amount like 3+ months). That might be a bad idea then. I still suggest scrapping the idea of earning money because this is about good fights and not good bookkeeping. |
| sshuit12-24-03, 06:15 PM | I bumped Sir Roger after 3 consecutive losses. Hope that's kosher. sshuit |
| Moherajikuyx12-24-03, 08:42 PM | MB, thanks... About the monster fights, they solve two problems: 1. any cost we could decide is nothing core, 2. if we let the corpses for free the titan will make rapidly some ripping of the balance. And they're fun :) I offer to run a monster fight... Pairings checking under course! If there are less than a half pcs ready, I think I shall delay. Let's see. *Edit* looks there's quite some participation! Good! I'm doing Santa pairings. :D I hope no one complains about not being set to OK: I gave MANY advices about how to be set ready. PAIRINGS DONE! |
| Arstimis12-25-03, 12:11 AM | Kiowen's tactics have been sent to you Barrel Master. Please tell me if you see anything wrong with them so i can fix it. Thanks |
| Jindl12-25-03, 03:34 AM | Originally posted by Caterane @Mo: I`ll mod Iku Rex and Clio this week Hey Mo, please list the mod for Iku's fight vs Jagath. Thanks. Merry Xmas! -Jindl PS: If anyone needs someone to take a fight for them, I didn't get assigned a fight, and I could do one. So, if anybody will be too busy, just let me know. |
| Moherajikuyx12-25-03, 05:07 AM | Done. Jindl, wanna do the megamama? I was thinking about the monster fight... Considering that it can't run away, the monster shall begin the fight with an advantage. Let's say it can't run away because the greedy gladiator found and closed its lair. Then he shall begin hidden, and with the chance of a surprise round; furthermore, it shall begin in a random place, not in a fixed position. Really risky! :) |
| Jindl12-25-03, 08:34 AM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Jindl, wanna do the megamama? I was thinking about the monster fight... Considering that it can't run away, the monster shall begin the fight with an advantage. Let's say it can't run away because the greedy gladiator found and closed its lair. Then he shall begin hidden, and with the chance of a surprise round; furthermore, it shall begin in a random place, not in a fixed position. Really risky! :) Actually, I think you would fight / tame the mega - offspring. The creature you fight is your future mount. Also, word of your desire has spread, and Joe, Head of the Marketing Dept, has arranged to have one brought in for you to fight. It will be treated in all ways like it was just another gladiator (beginning at A or B, etc.) It shall not be able to specialize its feats towards you. Nor shall it have any equipment beyond what is explicitly listed in the monster description. I'll be happy to run the fight this weekend, as a test ! Send me Iron's memmed spells and tactics. (And put the Heavy Warhorse back if you want a mount.) -Jindl |
| Moherajikuyx12-25-03, 09:41 AM | Actually I proposed to guide the gladiator by ourselves, to give us the chance to use our pcs at least once :) No problem though, I'm preparing Iron. *Edit* done, the tactics are there under taming :) |
| MotherBast12-25-03, 03:03 PM | About jumping during a charge, I was just reading in the CWHB, which I got for Xmas, and I notice that the swashbuckler has an ability that alows her to "charge under conditions other characters can not." It goes on to say the swashbuckler my tumble or jump over obsticals during a charge with this ability. That would suggest to me that without this ability, one could not jump as part of a charge. Its an old topic, I know, but I just thought this might change what was decided about it. |
| Wizard12-25-03, 03:08 PM | Originally posted by Arstimis Kiowen's tactics have been sent to you Barrel Master. Please tell me if you see anything wrong with them so i can fix it. Thanks Elxethan's are sent too. |
| Caterane12-25-03, 03:19 PM | @Jindl, Alterlat, Magagumo, LLMadCow and Sir Cridion: Please send me your tactics as soon as possible because I`m really bored... eh, and I have lots of free time now which might change again next week when I have to work again. @Sir Cridion: Just kidding :angel: |
| MotherBast12-25-03, 04:52 PM | Tactics for Candy sent to Tellish and tactics for Brackin sent to LLMC.... I didn't use my yahoo account to mail them, so let me know if you got them please. |
| Magagumo12-25-03, 05:09 PM | Zorander's tactics will be sent ASAP, Cat. @ Moh Um, MOh, I can't moderate fights, remember? I won't be able to do so until at least the 12th of January. I'm positive I mentioned this last week (when I did spring this rather suddenly). Sorry to say, but someone needs to take my fight, as I cannot run it, and had assumed that I would not need to moderate since I only have one character fighting... Sorry guys, but this is how its going to be for the next 3 weeks... On a lighter note, Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays :) |
| barrel_master12-25-03, 05:31 PM | I've received tactics and reveiwed them quickly... they both look okay. @Snark, sorry mate, I sent you 3 versions of tactics... please take the one that says 3rd ed. They're all pretty much the same though and follow the same jist... |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-25-03, 06:57 PM | Originally posted by MotherBast About jumping during a charge, I was just reading in the CWHB, which I got for Xmas, and I notice that the swashbuckler has an ability that alows her to "charge under conditions other characters can not." It goes on to say the swashbuckler my tumble or jump over obsticals during a charge with this ability. That would suggest to me that without this ability, one could not jump as part of a charge. Its an old topic, I know, but I just thought this might change what was decided about it. I believe this is mostly in reference to jump situations where your movement is altered right? If you make a high jump (changing your movement) you could not charge. The swashbuckler would be allowed to make a charge attack during this time. Also to tumble through threatened squares cost you double the movement right? So that alone would stop a charge, again the swashbuckler ability overrides this. I don't think it changes anything we have now in the mounted combat rules as all the allowances for jumping to charge are as a result of those jumps which do not count as extra movement. @Mag: can you re-send me Nevrlokagyfts tactics then since you can't mod. I don't have a saved copy of them. That way i can re-send them to however decides to mod it. @Jindl: That was a very well formulated and constructive response. However, i guess there isn't a point in accepting intelligent items, as my whole premise for it was to assist warriors to balance out against casters, not further widen the gap. So i'll just drop the arguments for it then. I understand the only house rule for it was what i had originally stated and was aware of it. Nonetheless, if it's going to be allowed for everyone, then i'll drop it. It only makes casters widen the gap between power levels than what it is now. Looks like the pure warriors are about to die off then. Without any way to compete with the casters, there is no point to playing them except for an early jump to quickly gain lvls. We'll see what Mara and Brackin can do at the mid-levels in the arena against the casters. It appears that the arena will simply come down to spellcasting wars then. Oh well. such is life. I had like 5 pages to read so i can't remember everything i wanted to comment on, so if i missed anything, oops! :) Tellish Tellish |
| Moherajikuyx12-25-03, 07:03 PM | OK, fight moved over to cellardweller... Are you around? |
| cellardweller12-25-03, 08:00 PM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx OK, fight moved over to cellardweller... Are you around? got it covered |
| MotherBast12-25-03, 09:01 PM | @Tellish, actually, it makes a specific reference to jumping over a table, which wouldn't be a high jump at all, nor would it alter the direction of movement. I want to type the whole ability, but I'm not sure if its open game content and don't want to violate any policys, but I think it would be ok to say that the ability says it might "still be necessary to make to approprate checks to successfuly move over the tarian," and mentions jump specificly. It also says the situations listed are situations a normal character could not charge. So that would imply to me a normal character couldn't jump an obstacal during a charge, or the feat wouldn't have mentioned making it possible. |
| JonahBlack12-25-03, 09:11 PM | @Wizard: For better or worse, I emailed my tactics. |
| SnarkHunter12-25-03, 10:20 PM | Tactics sent for Bilo, and recieved for Roger and Peter. Prolly run it oh...lets say Saturday. |
| sshuit12-26-03, 01:58 AM | Tactics received from Johan and Tomar. Will run and get up on Sunday/Monday likely. @Motherbast : re : Charging. That's what I always assumed too, no climbing, jumping or tumbling as part of a charge without that duelist ability. @Tellish : Re : Spellcaster dominance. I agree 100%. I don't see how non-casters will be able to compete with the rules as they are now. But I guess life just isn't fair. I look forward to modding the "Slay Living - Cleric vs. Trip specialist fighter" duels in the future. 1 round fights will be a pleasure. |
| Caterane12-26-03, 06:02 AM | Tactics received for Zorander, Cliodhna and Jagath Kir. |
| MotherBast12-26-03, 08:15 AM | I agree that as the characters get higher in level, the melee types will be left behind. In a one on one fight, a fighter will be destroyed by the spellcaster, simply because the caster can use all of his resorces at once, not worrying about the "next encounter". In a dungon, the caster isen't likely to cast 13 spells in one battle. If he did, he would quickly run out of spells and become usless. THe fighter, meanwhile, is built to last. He can go all day. The arena is one battle though, so the spellcaster advantage will only widen with time as the number/power of spells incresses. Something else to concider, in a typical campagin, a character's consumable items don't typicaly count twords the total value of his "welth". In the arena, however, the melees must spend a great deal of there welth on potions to stay competative. This will put them behind the curve on aquiring there very expensive magical weapons and gear. Meanwhile, casters can use much cheeper scrolls. This further widens the gap between melee/caster as a caster can now cast 30+ spells in a single battle, using scrolls and his/her own spells, and still spend less total gold than a melee who drinks 5 potions. @Tellish, I looked at the ability again, and the specific examples it gives are moving down a flight of stairs, (so this would indeed alow for changes in elevation, but still not direction) moving over difficult tarrain or through allies blocking your path, leaping down from elivation, (change in ellivation again) or across a table, (no change in elevation.) However, in the book is says "tumbling" across a table. I cross refrenced this with the tumble ability, and tumble alows 4 things, shortening a fall, moving through occupied squares, moving without provoking AoO, and entertaining an audience. So, the skill "tumble" could not be used to move across a table. Off of the top of my head, I came up with three ways to move over the table. Either you can simply step up on it if it isen't high, or has benches/chairs around it that could be used for steps, you could use "climb" if your DM rulled it would be possible, but I don't see any medium size creature "climbing" a table. The last and most obvious way is jump. The ability descripbes moving down the stairs as "running" when you can't run as part of a charge. The drop from the balcony is "leaping", which is obviously a jump, and across the table is "tumbling" though from this I would assume it was more a description than a refference to the actual tumble skill. Basicly, what I'm getting at is the ability allows the swashbuckler to jump stuff as part of a charge. If she needs this ability to do that, then she obviously can't do it without this ability. But the wording of the ability is tricky, so I'd like to get some other opinions on it before I decide. I had previously excepted the jumping of obsticals during a charge without question. I have done everything short of typing the ability here, so I'd like some feedback from the rules experts here. |
| Caterane12-26-03, 08:26 AM | http://sebastian-sutor.de/temp/sofholding.jpg http://sebastian-sutor.de/temp/santalithid.jpg http://sebastian-sutor.de/temp/wightxmas.jpg |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-26-03, 10:45 AM | @MB: I understand what you're saying. Until heavily debating it with others, i was never a proponent of jumping during a charge. I had always stated that it couldn't be done. However, others, through tedious discussions and interpretations had lead me to believe that it could be done. So what's wrong with that? Several ppl made very detailed analysis of jumping during the charge and it was very convincing. So what? Now the swashbuckler ability come out and changes that...ok...so what? I've never been a fan of jumping as part of a charge and all of those arguments do little to sway my opinion that i already think it can't be done. You're preaching to the choir on this one. :) Even during those discussions about jumping in a charge, i was pretty much always against it, but the arguments they used were VERY convincing to say the least. Unfortunately, the swashbuckler ability (i haven't read it) still doesn't solve the debate except with the grander issue of changing movements and charging where normally one could not. That's it. Nothing more. No need to read a whole IF and AND and OR's into it. It's not like they've NEVER printed ambiguous rules or contradictory rules either now is it? So lets just leave it the way it is and drop this silly argument. There is no point to it. Let's instead focus on something a little more important (imho) like finding balance in the arena, the allowance of advanced trained animal via animal handling, the moderating for credits to allow ecl+ races etc... Drop the mounted combat rules already, they're getting old. :behold: EDIT** @Cellardweller: were our tactics forwarded to you or do you want us to send them out again? I'd have to do mine from scratch again cuz i didn't save the copy i sent to mag. If he'd be so kind as to forward it to ya that'd be awesome. Tellish |
| MotherBast12-26-03, 12:41 PM | I have already droped mounted combat. I don't see where this applies to it. I was mearly pointing out that this ability didn't ONLY pertain to changes in elevation. Like yourself, I read the arguments for jumping during a charge, and I was also convinced, I just wanted to see peoples opinion on this, both for how it might affect battles in the arena, and for my own games. Just last week I alowed a player in my game to attempt to jump one of his allies while on horseback to attempt a charge. I have not one, but two characters in my game who relly heavly on charge tactics, and I just want to be sure I know all the rules. I only last week found out that overrun can no longer be used during a charge, and now I find that jumping might not be allowed either. In actuallity, it occures to me this would probably never be an issue in the arena, because even if jumping is alowed during a charge, the charge itself must still be in a stright line. Teh smallest obstical in the arena is 5 x 5 x 5, so jumping it would result in not one, but two 5' changes in elevation, one going above the rock, and another comming down, resulting in a line that looks like this _________/ \_____. So this really dosen't apply in the arena at all, its more just a question for my own benifit. One of the main reasons I joined this thread is to better understand the confusing and ambiguas rules, and this is certanly one of those. I'm not trying to preach at anyone, I just want a few opinions on the matter, to see what other people make of this ability and what it would suggest about jumping during a charge. Back on the topic of establishing balance, I don't think it is possible in a one on one battle. The caster classes main weakness is durability. They will not function at full capasity during extended periods of repeated battle. In a one on one battle, this weakness is not a problem. Meanwhile, the melees, who are designed to function at top performance over multaple encounters (with more HP, and few #/per day abilitys) are being placed in disadvantagous positions, because it is a single encounter, with enimeys willing to use every available resorce at his disposal duing that one single battle. The classes are not designed for single battles, and the advantage shifts to whoever has the more powerful #/day attacks. What could be more powerfull that pure casters in that kind of environment? Really though, without house rulles, noting could be done to address this issue. In a "real" campagin, the melee types aren't so heavly outclassed, because the casters tend to spead out there spells over a wider area, so as not to become usless in the latter stages of the dungon. In my campagins, a typical dungon has 14 encounters, then the BBEG. This ensures the party will likely face at least 10 or so encounters before the big guy. It also promotes the growth of the party, ensuring they will likely level after most dungons, if you count the exp from social interactions, which always make up a big part of my campagins. After 11 encounters, a wizard is not nearly the threat he was during the first. A fighter, meanwhile, is still just as deadly. I don't see how this could possibly be incorprateded into the arena, witout limiting the number of spells a caster could cast, which is worse than making them reveal half there spells. Plus, the easy access to scrolls would make even limiting of spells only a small countermesure. I really don't see balance between the classes in a one on one fight as a possibility, but I would fully support any arena rules designed to promote it. Speaking of which, the huge central obstical idea would not help melees as I see it, only casters. Sure, it would prevent first turn kills, but the same spell that killed on the first turn would still kill the melee after the caster has buffed up, gone invis, and flew to the top of the arna. Meanwhile, the melee has to navagate around the obstical to close to the caster. The melee's only hope is to close before the caster has time to establish his key buffs. The central obstical idea would tip the scales to casters even more. Along the same lines, Random starting positions also favors casters, as melee types would be unable to close quick enough if they didn't know where to go. It might be a better option to remove the central colomns entirley, leaving a clear line of sight between gladiators at the start of battle. The caster can always move and then cast his first turn kill spell, in the arean as it is now, so removing the obsticals is not a detrement to the melees, and now the melees have a means to take advantage of a won initative roll, by using ranged weapons, or closing quickly. If they have a mount, a first turn charge becomes a possibility. Of course, this would then mean mounted melee character would then have the advantage over unmounted melee characters, but that was typicaly true in most combat situations both in game and in real life anyway. The difference in power between casters and melees is only going to become more apparent as casters get higher in level and begin to "pre-buff" with 16hour spells. Well, I wrote to much already. I'll wait for some responses before I post again. |
| barrel_master12-26-03, 02:06 PM | Originally posted by MotherBast I have already droped mounted combat. I don't see where this applies to it. I was mearly pointing out that this ability didn't ONLY pertain to changes in elevation. Like yourself, I read the arguments for jumping during a charge, and I was also convinced, I just wanted to see peoples opinion on this, both for how it might affect battles in the arena, and for my own games. Just last week I alowed a player in my game to attempt to jump one of his allies while on horseback to attempt a charge. I have not one, but two characters in my game who relly heavly on charge tactics, and I just want to be sure I know all the rules. I only last week found out that overrun can no longer be used during a charge, and now I find that jumping might not be allowed either. In actuallity, it occures to me this would probably never be an issue in the arena, because even if jumping is alowed during a charge, the charge itself must still be in a stright line. Teh smallest obstical in the arena is 5 x 5 x 5, so jumping it would result in not one, but two 5' changes in elevation, one going above the rock, and another comming down, resulting in a line that looks like this _________/ \_____. So this really dosen't apply in the arena at all, its more just a question for my own benifit. One of the main reasons I joined this thread is to better understand the confusing and ambiguas rules, and this is certanly one of those. I'm not trying to preach at anyone, I just want a few opinions on the matter, to see what other people make of this ability and what it would suggest about jumping during a charge. Back on the topic of establishing balance, I don't think it is possible in a one on one battle. The caster classes main weakness is durability. They will not function at full capasity during extended periods of repeated battle. In a one on one battle, this weakness is not a problem. Meanwhile, the melees, who are designed to function at top performance over multaple encounters (with more HP, and few #/per day abilitys) are being placed in disadvantagous positions, because it is a single encounter, with enimeys willing to use every available resorce at his disposal duing that one single battle. The classes are not designed for single battles, and the advantage shifts to whoever has the more powerful #/day attacks. What could be more powerfull that pure casters in that kind of environment? Really though, without house rulles, noting could be done to address this issue. In a "real" campagin, the melee types aren't so heavly outclassed, because the casters tend to spead out there spells over a wider area, so as not to become usless in the latter stages of the dungon. In my campagins, a typical dungon has 14 encounters, then the BBEG. This ensures the party will likely face at least 10 or so encounters before the big guy. It also promotes the growth of the party, ensuring they will likely level after most dungons, if you count the exp from social interactions, which always make up a big part of my campagins. After 11 encounters, a wizard is not nearly the threat he was during the first. A fighter, meanwhile, is still just as deadly. I don't see how this could possibly be incorprateded into the arena, witout limiting the number of spells a caster could cast, which is worse than making them reveal half there spells. Plus, the easy access to scrolls would make even limiting of spells only a small countermesure. I really don't see balance between the classes in a one on one fight as a possibility, but I would fully support any arena rules designed to promote it. Speaking of which, the huge central obstical idea would not help melees as I see it, only casters. Sure, it would prevent first turn kills, but the same spell that killed on the first turn would still kill the melee after the caster has buffed up, gone invis, and flew to the top of the arna. Meanwhile, the melee has to navagate around the obstical to close to the caster. The melee's only hope is to close before the caster has time to establish his key buffs. The central obstical idea would tip the scales to casters even more. Along the same lines, Random starting positions also favors casters, as melee types would be unable to close quick enough if they didn't know where to go. It might be a better option to remove the central colomns entirley, leaving a clear line of sight between gladiators at the start of battle. The caster can always move and then cast his first turn kill spell, in the arean as it is now, so removing the obsticals is not a detrement to the melees, and now the melees have a means to take advantage of a won initative roll, by using ranged weapons, or closing quickly. If they have a mount, a first turn charge becomes a possibility. Of course, this would then mean mounted melee character would then have the advantage over unmounted melee characters, but that was typicaly true in most combat situations both in game and in real life anyway. The difference in power between casters and melees is only going to become more apparent as casters get higher in level and begin to "pre-buff" with 16hour spells. Well, I wrote to much already. I'll wait for some responses before I post again. Agreed. Perhaps we can implement some sort of system where the spell slots you used in one week an not be used next week? |
| Jindl12-26-03, 02:36 PM | Hey barrel, did you have to quote the whole passage? ( :D ) @Alterlat - Did you get my PM? I'm having some network problems... -Jindl |
| Caterane12-26-03, 02:55 PM | @Jindl: Where are your tactics? I have tonight and saturday until evening (sunday my D&D group, monday work, tuesday negative credit) so tomorow noon is deadline. If a pal shows up tomorow I might not even finish it then. |
| Alterlat12-26-03, 06:17 PM | @Jindl: Sorry, I hadn't been checking my PM. The change should be fine - I'll update my tactics accordingly. |
| Jindl12-26-03, 06:37 PM | Originally posted by Alterlat @Jindl: Sorry, I hadn't been checking my PM. The change should be fine - I'll update my tactics accordingly. Thanks and Merry X-mas :) -Jindl |
| Tharkos12-27-03, 06:01 AM | Concerning the "caster vs. non-caster" issue I dont think removing an obstacle to let fighters be able to charge first round will make it better. It will just shift the balance to another group of characters. Those non-caster-non-riding characters will then be at a disadvantage against both the casters and the mounted non-casters. The only "fair" solution IMO is to get rid of the fixed starting spots, which serves to increase the chances of fights taking more than a single round because there are even casters who use mounts to get in range for the "do or die spell" in the 1st round. Thats not a good thing IMO. Terrain is also something which is of an advantage to fighters because obstacles reduce the line of sight and fighters only have a real advantage in close combat. A mounted charge isnt that important in the game IMO because many adventures take place inside buildings, in caves or other spots where you cant use a mount effectively. Being able to hide from the opponent would really add another dimension to the battles ... it isnt really possible now. Elminster said something about battling Wizards sometime (in the Novel "Spellfire"): "If ye are fighting a wizard throw rocks at him and run closer yelling, if he is too far away for the rocks run away and hide." (not the exact quote, but I think I got the meaning) 1. Wide open plains favor: - mounted fighters, - casters (especially the purely offensive ones as spell ranges are ever increasing). 2. Broken terrain, obstacles and buildings favor: - unmounted fighters, - rogues and other "sneak&hide" classes, - defensively oriented casters. No. 1. will have short battles decided with just a few rolls (either attack/damage or saves), but no. 2. gives many people a chance to use fighting tactics which consist of more than just "charge on round 1". I would vote for option 2. if I had the choice. |
| Moherajikuyx12-27-03, 06:05 AM | Seems you like the central obstacle idea :) I like the chosen positions thing. Maybe we should give two areas where there is free choice to start? |
| Tharkos12-27-03, 06:10 AM | I like the "alternative terrain" idea ... I edited my post a few mins later, hehe. |
| Caterane12-27-03, 10:22 AM | Quick answer apreciated: Entangle: I`m really not sure if a creature that fails its save is prevented from moving. The PHB says ...holding them fast and causing them to be entangled DMG: ...being entangled impedes movement but does not entirely prevent it. An entangled creature moves at half speed... The point is this "holding them fast". Is this a definition or just some kind of flavor text? A definition should include D&D terms like "paralyzed" or "immobile" or something else but "holding fast" isn`t such a term. Any definite enlightments? |
| LLMadCow12-27-03, 10:42 AM | I have always run Entangled as moving at 1/2 speed. It's like walking through undergrowth. It just slows you down. But remember, the gods smile on clerics, and thus they are immune. :) |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-27-03, 11:02 AM | It's mid-saturday and still i've not recieved tactics for Candessa or Spike. Plz send them by the evening or it will be run with default tactics...and that's never good. Tellish |
| KerlanRayne12-27-03, 01:13 PM | About Entangle, it seems pretty clear to me that if you fail the save, then you can't move. If someone casts this spell at you there are to things that could happen. [LIST=1] You make the save and can only move at half speed. You fail the save and must make a Str of Escape Artist check in order to move at half speed. [/LIST=1] Since you have to be successful at one of these to move at half speed, if you fail, you can't move. KerlanRayne |
| MotherBast12-27-03, 02:15 PM | @Tellish, I sent tactics Thursday. I guess you didn't recive them. If I still have time I"ll resend them today. I sent my tactics for Brackin at the same time, did you recive them LLMC? [edit] Tactics for Candessa resent. After checking my box, I only have tactics for Rito, so Sir Cridion you need to send me Faldion's tactics ASAP. |
| JonahBlack12-27-03, 03:41 PM | Drat! Defeated by sleep! I suppose that's a hazard of being an Orc Barbarian. Good Fight, LLMadCow! I have a couple questions: 1 - From my tactics: Originally posted by Wizard -Start with the large shield in one hand (left), and the great sword held, not wielded, in the other hand (right)... -On the second round, unless he's moved back twice, I should be able to reach him (80ft charge). Drop the shield (free action) to wield the Great Sword 2-handed (There was talk on the discussion forum about this, but I wasn't clear on the result. I'm not sure why it would be an action to put your hand on a drawn weapon. This would make it difficult for 2-handed fighters to drink potions. If this will take an action, then skip the shield at the beginning. It never came up with in the fight, but I was curious what the ruling would be on this. If I have a two handed melee weapon in one hand, can I drop the item in my other hand (in this case the shield) to wield the 2 hander for free, or does it take an action to do this? 2 - I had forgotten that enlarge granted reach (I know, duh), but it brings up an interesting question. If Grimlock is 10 ft from a gladiator with a reach weapon, say, a long spear, can he ready an action to sunder the spear when he is attacked, even though he can't hit his opponent? It makes logical sense, as the spear is close enough to hit, but sometimes The Rules are not completely logical. @ Wizard - I have a question about the fight. The first thing that Herrix did was move back 60'. I looked at LLMadCow's tactics, and he doesn't mention moving. He just buffs and casts sleep at his earliest opportunity. Now, I don't know that this would really have affected the fight (Grimlock is pretty much destined to fall to sleep), but I would like to get a sense of how much the mod's can think for the combatants. Thanks for a good fight, Wizard & LLMadCow. Looking forward to the next bout! |
| Wizard12-28-03, 01:38 AM | On your tactics, I have a completely clear conscience. Naturally, Grimlock would want to get as close as possible as fast as possible, as it's the only place from which he can do damage. Even starting at 111' wouldn't help---he'd still be subject to the spell at least once. As for Herix--that's the question. I took the second e-mail to overrule the first(so buffing was out), and inferred that Herrix wanted the first thing to happen once that 110' was broken to be his casting of sleep. So the short answer is...I don't know. Your character building was excellent, and perhaps I did think TOO much for Herrix, but had to run the fight three times (forgot that sleep has a 1-round casting time the first time) and you failed the save all three times (the last was heartbreakingly close!). Also, you didn't lose any items. I think you just got unlucky against a caster loaded with spells requiring your bad save. Grimlock, I salute you! |
| Moherajikuyx12-28-03, 03:53 AM | Good start, Wizard! ...At what point are the other fights? |
| Caterane12-28-03, 04:44 AM | My fights are both finished. :censored: I`ll post it in an hour or two but now: breakfast! Edit: Mo, you are awake at half past 8 on sundays??? Your girlfriend didn`t let you sleep on, eh? *lol* |
| Moherajikuyx12-28-03, 06:18 AM | :blush: |
| Caterane12-28-03, 07:00 AM | Ok, here`s a christmas present from me. Please take your time when reading it; took me 2 full days work to finish it. >Look into the stocking< (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2184935#post2184935) BTW: Thanks to Fluiddragon. Without his helping me with my computer problems it would not have been possible to write the story at all. |
| MotherBast12-28-03, 09:03 AM | @Cat, that was a stellar, stellar story. I found myself wishing that Zorander would somehow realize his mistake and rush to aid this fellow ranger. The story almost made me forget it was actually an arena battle. Just an outstanding job all around, and it only reinforces your station as the top arena bard. |
| MotherBast12-28-03, 10:23 AM | Rito vs. Faldion fight finished. No tactics were sent for Faldion, but he did have a few rough default tactis on his character sheet, so I went with those. It will be posted in an hour or so. |
| JonahBlack12-28-03, 11:52 AM | It's all good, wizard. Like I said, I figured that I would lose against a spellcaster with access to sleep. Anybody have any thoughts on my other questions? |
| Sir Cridion12-28-03, 12:34 PM | @Motherbast: Whoops! Sorry about that, I was really busy over Christmas and the past few days and I completely forgot about the arena... Guess I deserved the loss. Good fight Moh. I guess it's too late to send tactics for Aeriel? Anyways, a belated Merry Christmas everybody! |
| Tharkos12-28-03, 12:36 PM | After a long process of deliberation I finally managed to choose a character concept and now I have posted a character in the "builds" thread. I wish formatting the "sheet" would be easier to make them look good as well. |
| barrel_master12-28-03, 01:10 PM | Hey, I've got a question for you guys. Are we allowing clerics to purchase divine scrolls of fly in the arena, if say a cleric with the travel domain wanted to? |
| SnarkHunter12-28-03, 01:52 PM | Fight posted! And my it was a rather fun one to run. Twists and surprses await alll if you dare! Read about it here! (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2186207#post2186207) Oh Thakros I checked over you're character and she looks good! (Uh, build wise I mean, although she;s pretty easy on the eyes in other respects ;)). One thing I would consider: As an outsider you are profecient with all martial weapons. Since it wouldn't be hard for an opponent to survive a coup-de-gras made with a dagger you might want to use something a might bigger. |
| Tharkos12-28-03, 02:25 PM | As that little thing with the weapons isnt mentioned in the "Aasimar as Characters" section of the SRD I wont change it unless you can state a quote for it. She isnt meant to use anything heavy and Color Spray should hopefully give several rounds for Coup de Grace ... P.S.: Too bad Charm Person doesnt work that well here, but there are other spells to use. PP.S.: Too bad Sorcerors dont get Diplomacy as a class skill. PPP.S.: I would have chosen "War Fan" as a weapon, but sadly that isnt in the 3.5 PHB .... PPPP.S.: I expect to loose a few times, since this concept (and the 1 added level for Aasimar) makes her "pick up" rather late. |
| Sir Cridion12-28-03, 04:51 PM | Dusk vs Krakskul posted; This was a great fight to mod - Nice and straightforward! @Caterane: ...Wow... your writing is awe-inspiring. @Snarkhunter: re: Peter vs Roger... *ROFL!* |
| sshuit12-28-03, 05:23 PM | @snark LOL! Roger would like his sponge bath now if it is at all possible :D An excellent read as always! |
| SnarkHunter12-28-03, 06:26 PM | AH HA HA THE SWEET NECTOR OF PRAISE DRIPS FORTH!!! Sorry, clearly represion of certain oedipiliean desiors has caused my psychic membrane to*bang* And now my left frontal lobe has exploded. Anywho @Thakros: I don't have a page reference per se but this was the consensus eventually reached for jindles Fighting sorcerer Iku. If you go back in the thread a little while you'd prolly find it. |
| Tharkos12-28-03, 08:56 PM | Ummm ... I dont have a month to read this whole post. As long as I myself am not convinced about this Laness will keep her dagger (not that it would matter since a coup-de-grace automatically hits anyway and she wont actually "fight" anyway). I am minmaxing to create a "reasonable" and working character after all who wins through tactics and not by accumulating special powers .... Too bad war fans arent special enough to make it into the PHB, hehe. Subtlety isnt valued much by the 3.5 design team I believe. |
| Jindl12-28-03, 11:12 PM | @Alterlat - Very well fought!! @Cat - I've never been so happy about losing :) @Cat - Please, tell everyone what the duration on that polymorph any object (cornugon form) is ... and since that is the duration, Iku is very happy :) (though he still fears the power of dispel magic and greater dispelling...) -Jindl |
| MotherBast12-28-03, 11:37 PM | If I'm not mistaken, I belive aasimar were assumed to be profecient in all limple and martial weapons due to the outsider type, which grants that ability. It also grants profeciency with any armor listed in the creature's entry. Under native, it says they can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected, and must eat and sleep. It dosen't say they loose the outsider weapon profeciencies, so it would seem they keep them. That is what was decided anyway, If I remember correctly. |
| Alterlat12-29-03, 12:32 AM | Jagath kill WHAT now?? And I thought the biggest thing he had to worry about was been turned into vegetable... That's one very scary 4th level character you've got there Jindl |
| Jindl12-29-03, 03:13 AM | @Alterlat - Thanks! Yes, Iku Rex is a pretty scary character now. (Check him out after I update this week for pairings for the full effect :D ) @barrel_master - A cleric may buy a divine scroll of any spell, though he can only cast it if it is on his spell list (including his domain spells). So yes, a travel domain cleric can buy and use a scroll of fly. @Tharkos - Re: Martial Wpn Prof for Outsiders, it is granted by the type (just like darkvision) and unlike racial bab,skills, and feats, it doesn't require a racial HD. It is an ability granted by type, just like darkvision. I'm sorry I don't have more time to chat and answer questions (I'd love to be able to respond to Jonah_Black, I think Grimlock is a good character...) But, I am at the beach with my extended family and that limits me to a 56 k Modem and little time to use it. So, until Tuesday (when I return home), have fun!! And Mo, I'll get to Iron's megaraptor fight sometime this week if you like. @Cat - Just, had a chance to read the story on Iku's fight. You continue to excell, Mr. Arena Bard. Well done. @Snark - Yours was good too ;) -Jindl |
| Arstimis12-29-03, 05:22 AM | yayyy...i won my first fight, thanks for modding it barrel_master and for winning i get 1.7k gp and go up a level right? |
| Tharkos12-29-03, 05:41 AM | Hmmmm, I have found the text allowing the weapon proficiency in the "TypesSubtypesAbilities" text of the SRD now, but it also contains some other stuff which outsiders supposedly have and which havent been adapted as well: From the SRD: Features: An outsider has the following features. —8-sided Hit Dice. —Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (as fighter). —Good Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saves. —Skill points equal to (8 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die. Traits: An outsider possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry). —Darkvision out to 60 feet. —Unlike most other living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don’t work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. —Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry. —Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Outsiders not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Outsiders are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor. —Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish). Native outsiders breathe, eat, and sleep. I think Aasimar are class based and I still believe they get their weapon proficiencies according to their class. Even the "skill in armor" part has its vague limitation of needing an outsider being "described" of wearing it. Does it mean all Aasimar are proficient with Armor (and Shields as well) because Paladin is their favorite class (and the entry in the MM lists it as wearing armor)? This quote from the SRD applies to all outsiders who DONT have levels in any classes and are based upon "HD" rather than "levels" IMO. Why else would they list SOME of these abilities (like Darkvision) in the "Aasimar as characters" entry and forget others ? * Somewhere a girl starts looking for a powerful artifact called "racial HD" * |
| Moherajikuyx12-29-03, 06:56 AM | Wow! Good reads, everybody! Cat - :eek: huge! MB - a really good introduction! MO's happy of the mantained balance ;) Snark - :rofl:! Jindl - OK next week: no hurry. Cat, if you wish, I can run Harvester's dragon... Would you prefer a moderated fight or to run the Harvester by yourself, while I run the dragon? I think I can gather the time for it, this week. As - I think - no one said anything against the monster fights, I'm adding it to the rules. Dragons, giants and stuff will not have to be paid... But slain! :) The fight will count as the character's fight of the week, to prevent repeating attempts to get the wanteed beast. For those who already have allies: I think we should not pay for the used allies. We should dismiss the ones we possess and fight for the new ones though, for balance with the other characters. Just an idea: given that we're fighting against the monster we will use, and given the limit of 1 fight per week which slows characters who fight high CR monsters and lose, I think we could let advanced - and templated - monsters: balance should not be hampered if you consider the time limiting factor. |
| Tharkos12-29-03, 07:11 AM | Quick question: How are Cohorts gained through Leadership handled that arent monsters but "PC race" ? Are they "created" in the same way as a PC is (i.e. 36 points) but without the cash ? |
| Moherajikuyx12-29-03, 10:15 AM | We're using only cohorts without class levels, to prevent the moderators from becoming oberated by workload. Also, we're using the default stats of the MM for the abilities, skills, feats and anything else. Having to check for the correctness of a pc is enough already. |
| barrel_master12-29-03, 12:04 PM | DRAT I lost. Thanks for the scroll clarification Jindl. |
| Caterane12-29-03, 12:40 PM | @Cat, that was a stellar, stellar story. I found myself wishing that Zorander would somehow realize his mistake and rush to aid this fellow ranger. The story almost made me forget it was actually an arena battle. Just an outstanding job all around, and it only reinforces your station as the top arena bard. Well, Zorander got hit by a touch of idiocy and I took this into consideration when I wrote the story. An irony of fate that Cliodhna was nearly killed by the lack of wisdom she caused. Actually he had apologized after the fight but that part fell to the director`s cut :) Please, tell everyone what the duration on that polymorph any object (cornugon form) is ... Don´t want to ruin your day but there`s still one thing to consider. PAO says "like Polymorph" and Polymorph says "the creature reverts to its true form when slain." What do you other guys think about that? |
| Jindl12-29-03, 12:49 PM | Originally posted by Caterane Don´t want to ruin your day but there`s still one thing to consider. PAO says "like Polymorph" and Polymorph says "the creature reverts to its true form when slain." What do you other guys think about that? Well, I'm not one of the "other guys", but to be more specific, it says "like polymorph, except ..." the duration and allowed targets/types are different. In this case, the different duration supercedes the limited duration of polymorph, including the ending of that temporary spell effect when the caster dies. You'll note that baleful polymorph doesn't end when the target dies, and it has a permanent duration just like PAO. I don't think any permanent duration effects expire when the subject dies. Though if you were true ressurrected without your original body, they may be lost, since the effect is placed on the physical body (as is the case for lich's who reform new bodies, or heroes who are eaten ...) -Jindl @Tharkos - We had much debate about the outsider martial wpns before. Basically, we found passages in some of the giants and djinn, where they neglected to list some of the type abilities that don't require racial HD, like darkvision. So, it seems the developers were not very standardized in their monster as PC's write-ups. Regardless, in the hound archon write-up and in others, the martial weapon proficiencies are not listed as "racial feats", but rather as a benefit of type. Therefore they are not dependent on racial HD, but are recieved regardless of class. Hopefully, the FAQ will eventually clarify this, but until then, this is the conclusion we came to. The discussion occurred around Nov 25-Dec 5, if you want to go back in this thread to those dates. |
| Caterane12-29-03, 01:11 PM | @Jindl: Perhaps, perhaps not. It may be as you say or it might be that the "permanent" thing is just a longer duration than 10min/lvl but a duration nontheless and duration has nothing to do with the "reverts to true form effect". Don`t get me wrong: I`m not against it, nor do I favor it. I`m just going to make sure that this is a valid thing. @all: I have a question. If I make a Yrthak a zombie, he loses all special abilities like blindsight. Is this thing blind then because it has no eyes on the picture. On the other hand, if it loses all these specials it would also lose this "is blinded beyond 120ft" which is part of their blindsense ability and the picture is just a picture. |
| Tellish_of_Ket12-29-03, 01:50 PM | Sorry for the dry fight posting. I left my bardic ability at home. xmas, booze, parties are taking up a lot of my time. heheh. I'll be back in form and catch up on the conversations when i get back home on my own computer. Dang 14" monitor and base pentium system of my parents just doesn't make surfing fun. Tellish |
| Moherajikuyx12-29-03, 02:06 PM | Originally posted by Caterane If I make a Yrthak a zombie, he loses all special abilities like blindsight. Is this thing blind then because it has no eyes on the picture. On the other hand, if it loses all these specials it would also lose this "is blinded beyond 120ft" which is part of their blindsense ability and the picture is just a picture. :rofl: Sorry Cat, I just got in mind the picture of the Harvey riding a mindless, blind zombie... *bumps the rotting head* "I told you to get there, you idiot!" |
| Tharkos12-29-03, 02:14 PM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx We're using only cohorts without class levels, to prevent the moderators from becoming oberated by workload. Also, we're using the default stats of the MM for the abilities, skills, feats and anything else. Having to check for the correctness of a pc is enough already. I can fully agree with this, but it results in an unequality IMO because those people who have enough points to spend on the ride skill can easily get one and the others who would need a more intelligent one have to wait till they find one that is high enough in HDs to survive without the "Ride check to negate hit" stuff and still deliver a punch. Its a bit "damage focused" IMO. Much cheaper than Leadership could be Diplomacy ... since you can change the attitude of an NPC towards you over time and since it should be a "take 10" like you are using for craft skills you only need a bonus of 10 to switch an attitude to "helpful" (i.e. will take risks to help you). You just take a day or so to change the attitude of an NPC by one step and then the next step on the next day .... and then you ask him to help you fight some "bad guy" and he will probably agree ... That wouldnt even be limited by level. Well I hope to surprise the lot of you with some alternative fighting tactics when the time comes .... I can accept the fact you handle martial weapon proficiencies for all outsiders like you do, but does this include the armor proficiency as well ? I listed the "outsider Traits" and both weapon and armor/shield proficiency are listed among those. This might be important because the "shield slot" is usually not occupied for a sorceror and if she could use one I could eventually add one since there are defensive enhancements which are only available for armor/shields. |
| Moherajikuyx12-29-03, 03:06 PM | I ordered a bit the rules on the first page. I added this section too. Handle Animal, where you have to find the pet, and Animate Dead, where you have to find the corpse, and similar ones, where you are not provided of the material for free, you have to deal with the corpse/pet/... before having the chance of using it: Monster Fight! Ask a moderator. Old allies of this kind have to be dismissed and replaced; the ones still functional are repaid, slain ones not. People at level nine: as there are many that are there waiting, I suggest all of them to ask for their allies. |
| LLMadCow12-29-03, 04:26 PM | @Anyone who cares - I have my fight to run tonight. My work has called on me for much overtime recently, but I will be running my fight tonight and tomorrow, to be posted tomorrow afternoon at the latest. Sorry for the delay, but I had spoken to Mo about running a low level fight and I got an 8th level fight!?!? Oh well. More to follow. |
| LLMadCow12-29-03, 04:35 PM | @Caterane - Thank you for running such a wonderful fight. It was a pleasure to read, and I hope that you found the resources I sent to you to be useful. I loved the elven, and if anything you might want to consider editing the posts to turn some of the elven into links so that others can know their meanings as well. There wer som mistakes on my part, but I have always been aware that Cliodhna had a hard road ahead of her. Overcoming the level differences of going cross class for the Mystic Theurge is going to be tough, but worth it. |
| Moherajikuyx12-29-03, 05:50 PM | Ops :blush: sorry LL... If you're able to change it with others that's ok. If I don't add a moderator request on the roster, it likely means that I'm going to forget it... Tell me guys. *Edit* Originally posted by Tharkos [...]You just take a day or so to change the attitude of an NPC by one step and then the next step on the next day Actually it should be no-retry, I believe. |
| KerlanRayne12-30-03, 03:39 AM | @sshuit: I see a few problems with my fight. * First, Johan flies up in the first round but Tomar waited till round 7!?! Tactics said that if he flew, Tomar would fly too. * Secondly, Protection from Chaos doesn't only protect from Chaotic summoned creatures. The spell refers you to Protection from Evil and the only effect that applies to evil creatures are the bonuses to AC and saves. The summoned creatures part says only good creatues are immune to this. * Third, Tactics said to drink enlarge potion if Johan enlarged, but he didn't so why did you use it? @All: I'm not sure if this would get me an error point, and I'm not even sure what error points do. What do we do with them? KerlanRayne |
| Tharkos12-30-03, 05:54 AM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Actually it should be no-retry, I believe. Its not actually a retry to change the attitude again. You either do it in one BIG step or in lots of little steps. Little steps need LOTS of time which you usually dont have, but in this environment you could even make a 100.000 gp item between two fights (and that would take 100 days ...), so time is NOT an issue here. |
| sshuit12-30-03, 07:55 AM | @kerlan Hi there, just wanted to respond to a few points. Point 1. I did ask you if you wanted to interrupt your buff routine to respond to his actions and you said no. So I continued with your strategy, which was to move within charge range (step 2.)(flying or not.) Point 2. My mistake I suspect. I don't think that is the intention of Prot. Chaos though. I'll reread the SRD later. I think that the "good" would be replaced by "Lawful" in the spirit of the spell and all his summons were lawful IIRC.l Point 3. Your tactics clearly state in step 3 to drink the potion of enlarge potion. Tactics vs Johan 1) Drink Protection from Chaos potion (will protect me from Summons)If they are Chaotic! and ready Gnome Hooked Hammer. 2) Approach opponent quickly keeping rocks between us for cover.. 3) Drink potion of Enlarge Person. 3) Once close enough, charge 60’ and attempt two handed trip attack. If successful use free attack for two handed attack. 4) Attack again next round. * 4a) If #3 failed, 1st attack will be trip attempt, if successful follow up with free attack from Improved Trip and second attack from double weapon. * 4b) If first trip fails then second attack will be trip, if successful follow up with free attack from Improved Trip. 5) If unsuccesful, continue trip attempts. 6) Attack with AoO from rising from prone and attack with double weapons while opponent is prone. 7) If HP is 20 or less, drink Cure potion. 8) If opponent rises from prone, resume trip attempts in #4. 9) If opponent moves away then charge and resume with #3. 10) If opponent becomes enlarged, then drink potion of Enlarge Person. 11) If opponent begins to fly, then drink Fly potion. 12) If opponent becomes invisible, ready two handed trip attack. 13) If opponent uses potion or scroll while within reach, then attack potion or scroll with AoO. 14) If grappled, then try to damage him in return. 15) If Summons begins attacking, just concentrate on opponent. 16) If stuck from Tanglefoot Bag, use Universal Solvent. Originally posted by KerlanRayne @sshuit: I see a few problems with my fight. * First, Johan flies up in the first round but Tomar waited till round 7!?! Tactics said that if he flew, Tomar would fly too. * Secondly, Protection from Chaos doesn't only protect from Chaotic summoned creatures. The spell refers you to Protection from Evil and the only effect that applies to evil creatures are the bonuses to AC and saves. The summoned creatures part says only good creatues are immune to this. * Third, Tactics said to drink enlarge potion if Johan enlarged, but he didn't so why did you use it? @All: I'm not sure if this would get me an error point, and I'm not even sure what error points do. What do we do with them? KerlanRayne |
| Caterane12-30-03, 08:11 AM | Question: If a spell or magic item grants you a feat, does this qualify for a PrC prerequisite? |
| Market_Share12-30-03, 11:37 AM | Delays continue. My bad for reporting this like this, but i don't suspect i will be back in Montreal in time to post the fight so that the gladiators may continue on the following week. Dr. Dre won. These drat-dang libraries don't make good places to sit for hours on end and run them. I just don't want to stall the two glads any longer. @Mohe: Please sit out both my guys this round, i won't be back until the following week. Sorry for the delays y'all. SPIKE! |
| Jindl12-30-03, 11:44 AM | Originally posted by Caterane Question: If a spell or magic item grants you a feat, does this qualify for a PrC prerequisite? My interpretation of the rules is that if the magic item or spell has a duration of more than 24 hours then it would. Basically, you have to keep the effect going all the time to use the benefit to qualify for a PrC. So, a monk's belt (granting Improved Unarmed Strike) could qualify you for a PrC that needs that prereq. But a spell granting Alertness for 2 hours, would not. That's just my interpretation, though. The rules are very unclear about this. -Jindl |
| Jindl12-30-03, 11:57 AM | Originally posted by Tharkos II can accept the fact you handle martial weapon proficiencies for all outsiders like you do, but does this include the armor proficiency as well ? I listed the "outsider Traits" and both weapon and armor/shield proficiency are listed among those. This might be important because the "shield slot" is usually not occupied for a sorceror and if she could use one I could eventually add one since there are defensive enhancements which are only available for armor/shields. Hrm, I never really thought about the armor proficiencies. But since it says those listed in the monster description, it's hard to determine what were granted by the type and what were granted by one level in the warrior class. I would probably go with the not proficient in any type of armor, just to be on the safe side. It seems clear that they are proficient with all martial and simple weapons, regardless of the monster description. The armor seems to be the "minimum to match the description", which is why I would go with no type granted armor proficiency for planetouched. -Jindl FYI: A mithral buckler has no armor check penalty or arcane spell failure (and therefore no penalties for a nonproficient spellcaster), and can hold all the enhancements you want. |
| KerlanRayne12-30-03, 12:15 PM | Originally posted by sshuit @kerlan Hi there, just wanted to respond to a few points. Point 1. I did ask you if you wanted to interrupt your buff routine to respond to his actions and you said no. So I continued with your strategy, which was to move within charge range (step 2.)(flying or not.) Point 2. My mistake I suspect. I don't think that is the intention of Prot. Chaos though. I'll reread the SRD later. I think that the "good" would be replaced by "Lawful" in the spirit of the spell and all his summons were lawful IIRC.l Point 3. Your tactics clearly state in step 3 to drink the potion of enlarge potion. @sshuit: Huh, I don't remember putting that there. Oh Well. I don't think moving is part of buffing so he should have been flying by round three, he already had three spiritual weapons on me by the time I flew. I didn't say move to within charge range, just to move in. I meant to move after each action but I might not have said it right. I agree that the Good part from Protection from Evil would be replaced by Lawful, but I just wanted to show that they didn't have to be chaotic. I see that all the summons were lawful (was it just luck?) so it didn't matter in the fight. Better luck next time. KerlanRayne |
| sshuit12-30-03, 12:39 PM | @kerlanrayne Apologies if it didn't turn out exactly as you had hoped. For what its worth he would have dispelled your Fly as soon as he saw you flying anyways so I'm not sure that flying sooner would have done much good. I was cheering for you all the same. If you had hit with 1 more attack things might have turned out very differently. Tripping while flying is also tricky. I'm not sure if I did that right. sshuit |
| barrel_master12-30-03, 12:45 PM | Okay 2 questions... 1. If I have only 1 char active do I have to mod any fights at all? 2. More directed at Moh I suppose... how bad is the Moding situation? Are we in dire need for more mods? |
| barrel_master12-30-03, 12:46 PM | Originally posted by KerlanRayne @sshuit: I see a few problems with my fight. * First, Johan flies up in the first round but Tomar waited till round 7!?! Tactics said that if he flew, Tomar would fly too. * Secondly, Protection from Chaos doesn't only protect from Chaotic summoned creatures. The spell refers you to Protection from Evil and the only effect that applies to evil creatures are the bonuses to AC and saves. The summoned creatures part says only good creatues are immune to this. * Third, Tactics said to drink enlarge potion if Johan enlarged, but he didn't so why did you use it? @All: I'm not sure if this would get me an error point, and I'm not even sure what error points do. What do we do with them? KerlanRayne If an error point was applied in your case you would get nothing. It would just punish your mod by (I think) kinda forcing him to mod another fight next week. |
| LLMadCow12-30-03, 01:23 PM | My fight is in progress of posting flavor text and all. On a side note, I am looking to run a specific fight this next week, but I need some volunteers. WANTED: Two Non-Melee Spell Casters for a magical battle Please volunteer for my Mad Scientist Project. :) |
| Jindl12-30-03, 01:50 PM | Re: Tripping while flying - I think ToK did some research and came back with the conclusion that you cannot trip a flying opponent. @barrel - Nope, if you have only 1 character then you can ask Mo not to assign you any fights. @Mo - If the modding situation is tough this week, I can take two fights (assuming Iron vs Megaraptor is one of them), even though I have only 1 active character (Iku). I love seeing those credits build up ;) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I have a quick question: Can you take a 5 foot step while prone? Please help me find where it says you can do this. My assumption is that you cannot move while prone, therefore you cannot take a 5 foot step as a free action while prone. What do you guys think? -Jindl |
| cellardweller12-30-03, 03:49 PM | Nevrlokagyft vs Curungûr - I'm too tired to tart it up any so expect a dry read. |
| cellardweller12-30-03, 03:53 PM | Originally posted by KerlanRayne I agree that the Good part from Protection from Evil would be replaced by Lawful, but I just wanted to show that they didn't have to be chaotic. I see that all the summons were lawful (was it just luck?) so it didn't matter in the fight. This issue has been discussed twice in this threads history and it was decided that protection hedged out all except it's diametric opposite - and no it wasn't just luck. @mo, perhaps this should be added to the FAQ. Edit: Re-read your statement and that's exactly what you were saying :D |
| Moherajikuyx12-30-03, 05:19 PM | I understand the difficulties of the holidays time, so I think we'd better do without any penalties for this two weeks. Much thanks to all the moderators... cellar that had to be a pain, and I have to say that you did a good job: better with no fluff than with no fight :) Market, I understand difficulties, so if you can't post the fight, well, that's fine, but if you manage to post at least the bare bones, it would really be better. Don't read this as a request though. Prexx? Are you around? I see your last post was on 12-20, I hope you're still with us... Tomorrow I'll do the pairings and in case we don't hear from you, I'll reassign the fight, just to keep things going. Originally posted by barrel_master Okay 2 questions... 1. If I have only 1 char active do I have to mod any fights at all? 2. More directed at Moh I suppose... how bad is the Moding situation? Are we in dire need for more mods? 1. No; moding will give you a credit though. Try to tell in advance if you're not at disposition. 2. I didn't check, it seems that many are on holidays. But that also means that many will not play, so it shall balance out. *Edit* cellar the faq's unreachable... The old Lords of the Pit was deleted, and doing a new one doesn't give access to that post :( |
| Ethendril12-30-03, 07:14 PM | How do I handle different weapon configurations on my character sheet? For example, if I want to carry a longspear to one battle, or a sword and large shield to another battle, or a sword and tower shield to the next battle, how do I account for that in my inventory? If I have something listed in my possessions as "at home," can I still bring it to a battle? I guess what I'm wondering is, do I have to have it all as equipment that I'm carrying if I want to use it in the battle? It could get heavy... Ethendril |
| Jindl12-30-03, 07:47 PM | @Ethendril- Items that will always be left at home (mw armorsmithing tools for example) can be listed as such on your character sheet. All other items should be listed as carried to the arena. Its okay to list what items you are bringing with you as part of your tactics, as long as you also include the new weight information for your equipment and your mount's carrying load. The equipment that you bring into battle is a part of tactics. Listing something as "left at home" is part of your default tactics. -Jindl |
| Moherajikuyx12-30-03, 08:27 PM | Finally, all the polls are closed! The most debated one is still number 10, the one about initiative. Looks like that most of the people prefer to have dealyers punished, but allowing moderators free hand on that. The cost for corpses is CR^2, but it's old as we now have monster fights. Cat - I know I told you the arena is dimensional-anchored, but it was before checking the numbers... I think that the majority is not for that, they'd rather leave the "10-rounds-delay dimensional anchor effect" that we have now. |
| SnarkHunter12-30-03, 09:21 PM | One question about the MM method for HD(which we are now doing...hmm have to reedit some sheets) is the first Hd still maxed? Also I can't help but notice there are now 8 players at level 9 :cool:. Can we assume we'll be delaying those fights another week what with the holidays? Since most aren't updated with new rulings that seems wise. If we will be, I believe Bilo and Moon-moon are up to snuff at least (aside from Hp manipulation...~95% at the moment). Finally my mod requests: I can mod 1 upper level fight and 1 monster fight. If neither are needed I could do two straight forward (i.e. low level) fights instead. |
| Jindl12-30-03, 09:21 PM | @Snark - Iku Rex joins the side of evil in the upcoming battle. He has already slain a paladin, enjoyed it, and wants to kill some more. -Jindl FYI: Until Magagumo reactivates Bruno (next week, I think), we do not have 8 ... besides, we will run the monster fights this week. I'm running Iron's monster fight + one PC vs PC match. |
| SnarkHunter12-30-03, 10:14 PM | @Jindle: Duly noted and much appreciated! In other news Hanz has been joined by a new friend. Boy I really got to say using straight stats from the MM makes for some incredibly bad cohorts. "Oh heavens, my CR2 creature didn't help in the fight! I am surprised!" etc. etc. |
| Prexx12-30-03, 11:23 PM | Sorry about taking so long to run the fight. All kinds of real life issues came up and it completely slipped my mind. I should have the fight posted in a few hours. Pyre is going to be going on an extended vacation, and will be inactive until further notice. I will not be able to moderate any fights for a while. [edit] The fight is posted. |
| Mercy12-30-03, 11:42 PM | Targ's ready to go this week and I can mod a fight. |
| sshuit12-31-03, 12:38 AM | @ll Just for your information. Both Roger and Voliana will be inactive after this week for about 1 week while I go on vacation and enjoy myself. Should be back about January 10th. So I'll be active after that. Unfortunately I won't be able to mod any fights either while I'm gone. sshuit |
| Caterane12-31-03, 01:59 AM | @Mo: Acknowledged. I`ll leave for Berlin in an hour so I won`t be able to run a fight this week. Vandaeris is ready though and I will be able to send tactics at least. Happy new year to all of you! |
| LLMadCow12-31-03, 02:21 AM | @Caterane - The fight you ran has generated a TON of off-board conversation in my life. I have told friends to check it out, discussed it in AIM and PM, and had personal conversations with other friends. Thank you. I value your input in regard to Cliodhna and the direction I am taking her in regard to the Role Playing aspect of who she is. I have put a great deal of thought into making her the character that she is, and it is self evident that you put a great deal of effort into making a truely memorable fight for all of the Core Arena fans, Lurkers and players. As Cliodhna advances, if you ever want to run another fight for this character, please let me know, or say something to Mo. Please send me a link directly to the first post of the fight so that I can link to it from Cliodhna's character sheet. @All - I do not know about the rest of you, but I think Cat's fight was an awesome read and very enthralling. I recommend this most recent fight for the all time best read, and I anxiously await Caterane topping even this! Final Note - I am ot sure if people noticed, but I posted my fight for the week. Either player can feel free to ask me any questions they might have, as there were a few things that did come up... |
| SnarkHunter12-31-03, 03:27 AM | Oh LL, well I was going to wait for Mother to coment first. I sometimes think I talk to much you see. I've considered getting laryngites so at least I'd have an excuse in RL not to say much, but that's neither here nor there. I think the fight went fine, progressed about as I would expect (except for those freakin dispel magics!) and I didn't notice any glaring omisions. Some of the durations for what was cast seemed a bit off and I wasn't sure how you were handling the mirror images...uh...oh yeah one other thing-you didn't write down which scrolls had been used so I assumed scroll #3 was dropped. Was that ok? Heh, and I liked the refrences. Not a fan of the ladies indeed ;). Caio. |
| Moherajikuyx12-31-03, 07:45 AM | Yes, I think we should wait a week for the level niners. Originally posted by SnarkHunter Boy I really got to say using straight stats from the MM makes for some incredibly bad cohorts. I think that we can easily allow the advanced versions (also with corpses and pets), that shouldn't be such a bad thing, and would make the cohorts more durable (losing one gives you -1 to leadership score!). Jindl I remember you're against it, but what are examples of unbalanced things? The extra HDs don't give more abilities, just hps and some saves and skills; the feats don't look so dangerous either. I'm still convinced that classes are too much of a work for the mdoerators. Prexx - sorry to hear that, CU soon we hope! Updating roster... If there are enough ready gladiators I'll do the pairings today, else tomorrow. |
| LLMadCow12-31-03, 07:59 AM | Oh LL, well I was going to wait for Mother to coment first. I sometimes think I talk to much you see. I've considered getting laryngites so at least I'd have an excuse in RL not to say much, but that's neither here nor there. I think the fight went fine, progressed about as I would expect (except for those freakin dispel magics!) and I didn't notice any glaring omisions. Some of the durations for what was cast seemed a bit off and I wasn't sure how you were handling the mirror images...uh...oh yeah one other thing-you didn't write down which scrolls had been used so I assumed scroll #3 was dropped. Was that ok? Heh, and I liked the refrences. Not a fan of the ladies indeed . Caio. Duration - I am pretty sure these were accurate, but if they were off, just let me know. Mirror Images - Each time Brackin was to interact with one of them, I rolled to see which one was you and which one was being attacked. Brackin rolled poorly EVERY TIME. I was somewhat concerned. Part of the issue was his charges - there were occassions when Bilo was behind a pillar, but his images were to the side of the pillar. So, Brackin would charge the image and miss Bilo. Scroll #3 was dropped. I will try to review the fight and let you know. |
| LLMadCow12-31-03, 08:03 AM | @Mo - I am doing some final shopping for Cliodhna. AIM me if you are going to post fights today. |
| Tharkos12-31-03, 08:47 AM | I have a slight problem again with the Leadership feat: Since the wording in the DMG always uses "level" (and the feat probably wasnt intended as a "monster cohort giver" like in 3.0) but it was decided Leadership would NOT give "leveled creatures" we need a decision about which term replaces "level" in that description if its purpose is to get faithful monster companions. a) CR (this will probably result in quite a few Dragon cohorts since they are a bit powerful for their CR), b) HD (this can be equally imbalancing for high CR-low HD monsters), c) the higher one of CR / HD, d) the "average" of CR / HD; Example from 3.0: Young Green Dragon Cohort = 9th level equivalent, CR=4, HD=11d12+22 ... average would be (4+11)/2=7,5 or 8 if you round it up (unless the bonus hp raise the HD number). Not exactly the number, but somehow they have to fighured out that 9th level equivalent. I guess its time for another poll if this hasnt already been discussed. Since there is no actual formula for "special cohorts" in the DMG we need one to solve this problem. |
| Jindl12-31-03, 08:59 AM | @Tharkos - For cohorts we use the ECL of the creature. If the MM doesn't give a level adjustment (whether for PC'ing or limited to Cohort Only) then that creature is not a viable cohort. Look at the blink dog and the hound archon for examples of two viable cohorts, one of which is PC-able and one which is "cohort only". @Mo - I really don't have too much trouble with templating, though the half-fiend and half-celestial give some amazing spell-like abilities. The problems I see have to do with advanced creatures, especially on gaining size. The rules are really fuzzy about this. But when a creature gains size, its level adjustment is supposed to increase as well, to make up for the ability score increase, extended reach, higher base damage, better natural armor, etc. But we don't have rules on how to increase the LA. So, I am against allowing advanced creatures for free (as cohorts). My issue with winning an advanced creature in a monster fight is the same. Some creatures (like your megaraptor), can easily be defeated by smart application of a spell. Whether they are advanced or not, they can be easy prey to a spell caster. But, allowing PC's to get advanced creatures isn't right in my opinion. In a campaign, the only way you'll see an advanced creature is if the DM puts one there, they aren't random monsters. Thus, I am against you being able to get one in the arena, as they require special DM creation. Could we at least try it without advanced monsters first? -Jindl PS: Have you played RttToEE ? There is an advanced howler in there which became huge in size, making it easily CR 10+. But, since the rules on how to increase CR for advancement are so unclear, the beast is put in the module to face 5th and 6th level characters (and in the module he has the support of several fighters, a cleric, and a wizard). I still shudder at the TPK that occurred when that happened. That's when I became very cautious of advanced creatures. |
| JonahBlack12-31-03, 09:04 AM | Grimlock should be ready to fight. Quick question, though, has the change to HP taken affect already, or should i wait to alter grimlock? |
| sshuit12-31-03, 09:14 AM | @prexx : Nice little low level fight hehehe... I was worried there about that scroll of MM and it did almost kill me. Luckily my opponent forgot that sleep doesn't effect elves :D hope all is well. sshuit |
| Moherajikuyx12-31-03, 09:50 AM | Yes, we use ECL=LA+HD I see your point Jindl. What about allowing them and the advanced ones too, but not to the point of changing size? I don't think advanced creatures shall be so rare. If the party encounters a pack of wolves, the alpha male and females will surely have some HDs more than the others. Allowing till the change of size excluded will give the leaders and handlers some more freedom without the unbalance, I believe. For the templates, I think it's ok. Would that be OK with corpses too? The half-dragon template makes the corpse... Quite difficult to become so I think :) Also, what do the others think? *Edit* Yes JonahBlack, the hps are calculated in the new way this week - the poll was concluded. I'm delaying till tomorrow the pairings, we've less than half gladiators active by now... Hold your claws!:behold: PS - Johan I saw only now the wrong link, now your pc is correctly linked. Don't worry at pointing me my errors - they're many... :blush: |
| Tharkos12-31-03, 11:35 AM | I would hate to see "Half-Dragon Paramount Legendary Wasp" Zombies (or any other creature). I would prefer a "no templates for anything" rule because they do have the danger of overshadowing the main character. If you have a "relatively weak" companion you should take care not to take him into a more dangerous situation than he can handle. It shouldnt turn into a "mutating match" of applying templates to keep your buddy up to par or else the focus will REALLY shift to coming up with the most powerful companion. Limits are good! |
| Jindl12-31-03, 11:59 AM | Agreed, limits are good. Of course paramount and legendary are not Core 3.5 templates, but hey, I get what your saying. Something else I just realized, handle animal only allows rearing/training of animals and magical beasts (at a penalty). So half-dragon (changes type to dragon), half-celestial (type becomes outsider), and half-fiend (type becomes outsider) are all not allowable for animal handling. So, the only templates available to an animal handler are celestial and fiendish, both of which create magical beasts, and give the animals energy resistances and SR. These templates would make allowable cohorts, as would lycanthrope, ghost and vampire, though none could have class levels. Without class levels it is impossible to become a lich, so that template is out as a cohort. The real problem becomes template stacking. A vampiric fiendish werewolf (afflicted) bugbear, should not be allowable as a cohort, even if it does have an ECL of 18. Nor should you be able to make a zombie of a celestial half-dragon megaraptor, even though it is within the rules. So, I am still against advancing allies in any way, unless it is specific to a class feature (such as a thaumatugist's planar cohort, etc). I would recommend that we try it without the advanced or templated allies first, then we can evaluate it and maybe expand the options later. -Jindl |
| SnarkHunter12-31-03, 12:54 PM | @LL: Hmm well since the images occupy the same 5ft square wouldn't they get the cover benifit as well? As for the durations the only one I noticed was cat's grace. Since it was cast from a scroll it would be a mere 30 rounds. @Mo: My real concern with just going with the straight bug bear from the MM is that he is a particuarly unoptimized member of the species. Now what I propose would not be particuarly burdensom (I hope!). Treat the cohort like a mini-character only using HD instead of class levels. You get say a 22 point boy to customize as you like and a little more discretion about feat application (I have a general dislike for alertness btw). No advancement here. Just a little customization. And this is the character optimization board after all :D. |
| Alathar Vierce12-31-03, 01:39 PM | Out for a week and a half for vacation, until then g'luck with fights and happy holidays :D |
| LLMadCow12-31-03, 02:42 PM | Originally posted by SnarkHunter @LL: Hmm well since the images occupy the same 5ft square wouldn't they get the cover benifit as well? As for the durations the only one I noticed was cat's grace. Since it was cast from a scroll it would be a mere 30 rounds. What is the point of having Mirror Images when they are all in the same square? The point is to NOT Have the images all in the same space, since a Small or Medium creature exists in their own space and Mirror Images can actually be within 5' of each other and spread out some. So, I had them spread out to detract from the target - exactly what their intention is... |
| MotherBast12-31-03, 04:07 PM | Concerning Brackin's fight with Bilo..... I want to curse my luck for never having grabbed the real Bilo, out of 4 or 5 trys. But then, he failed an easy dispell check, so it was really bad luck on both sides, mine was just a little worse. I would have liked to see the rolls that determined wether or not I hit Bilo or an image though. At first I thought you were just making me fight through every image before I could hit him. As far as template/advanced creatures go.... Can we please not turn this into the D&D Pokemonster thread? It is time we establish some firm, set in stone limits on allies, or it will soon become a game of "I choose you twice advanced, thrice templated random ECL 2 creature." I say, no advancements, no templates, but alow the customazation of creatures, using the same standard aray the MM uses, but feats, skills, and ability scores can be reasigned. This allows for customization, but limits abuse. |
| LLMadCow12-31-03, 07:37 PM | @Mother - Sorry about not logging those rolls. I always use my own dice, and each time you went after him, I rolled to see which number Bilo was and then I rolled again to see if you would hit that number. So when there were 5 images, I rolled a d10 and divided that into pairs. So, when Bilo landed a 7, then if Bracking hit a 7 or 8 on his d10, then contact would have been made. Also - I do hope that you approve of Brackin mocking Bilo in the manner that he did... |
| SnarkHunter12-31-03, 08:04 PM | @LL I sure did...and with a wisdom of 10 I guess Bilo just couldn't fire any back :(. Anywho, If no one has any problems then I'm going to redo brutus with a 22 point buy. |
| Moherajikuyx01-01-04, 09:45 AM | I fear I'm against reassigning feats, skills and ability scores of the monsters. That is really wrong, it's not possible even with leadership. Not only it will create monsters that have nothing in common with their basis, but it adds heavily to the work moderators have to do to check the scores of the pc AND of the ally. I think the only way is to let advanced (no templates, you convinced me) stuff, till the point of changing size excluded. This will allow for a bit of customization with skills and feats, but not the complete reengineering of monsters. The stats allocation is wrong. I know no dm who would let you chose the stats for the cohort, as if monsters went around with numbers on the resume for you to chose. |
| SnarkHunter01-01-04, 12:27 PM | On the contrary Mo, Its treating the monster like what it is-an ally. Under many of the entries of monsters in the 3.5 MM there's a brief section, "Playing a [monster x]". Here they list what the HD, class skills, stat mods and feat slots are available with every intent of allowing customization. All this is to show only that the creature your playing is slightly better then the average monster. Its really nothing big. |
| barrel_master01-01-04, 12:42 PM | Originally posted by SnarkHunter @LL I sure did...and with a wisdom of 10 I guess Bilo just couldn't fire any back :(. Anywho, If no one has any problems then I'm going to redo brutus with a 22 point buy. I'd be okay with it except that the modds would have to check the stats and wouldn't have the benifit of as much familiarity with the moster as everyone may be different. But beyond that, I'd be all for the min/max. |
| sshuit01-01-04, 12:57 PM | @ll I'm in total agreement on this one. It becomes all about min-maxing your cohort rather than your character. Otherwise I'm going to min-max my warhorse :-) Trade in the Run and endurance feats for weapon focus hooves, multi attack. dump stat everything except strength :-D Originally posted by Moherajikuyx I fear I'm against reassigning feats, skills and ability scores of the monsters. |
| Tharkos01-01-04, 01:02 PM | My personal opinion concerning the "correct" use of Leadership is that the DM chooses the cohort more or less to keep that on par with the campaign. I wouldnt even allow the (in my eyes munchkinny) "oh I am going to look for a cleric to heal me as a cohort" because that is basically "abusing the cohort" IMO. For this arena I think it would be NICE if we could do a fully customized cohort, but since we arent allowing a "character cohort" why should we allow that sort of customizing for monster cohorts ? Full customization is just too impractical (i.e. too much work for the moderators) to allow it. "Minor" minmaxes (like adding a FEW points of stat) wouldnt be bad, but I would suggest to keep that amount AS LOW AS POSSIBLE for a simple reason: too many points will change the CR of the creature by a too undefined amount, so we could get imbalance into the game. Looking for loopholes in the cohort-design isnt the right way to win. I would suggest only 2, 4 or 6 points to increase the stats at most, but 22 point build would allow you to switch stat emphasis too much IMO, especially if people start customizing undead characters which dont need certain stats anyway ....... As I have pointed out already this SHOULD be about 1 PC vs 1 PC and not 1 irrelevant PC with UBER cohort vs 1 irrelevant PC with UBER cohort. If people insist upon full monster customization I would suggest rethinking about "class leveled cohorts". |
| Moherajikuyx01-01-04, 04:19 PM | I concur. I also think that allowing advanced monsters (excluding size increase) gives that resuly without the need of introducing house rules: the few HDs that will be possible, will be limited by the leadership score / handle bonus, and will permit a few skill points, and maybe one or two feats and stats increases. That leaves the monster almost as is, allowing a bit of customization though. |
| Jindl01-01-04, 05:39 PM | This whole allies thing has really got me thinking. I want to find a way where it is balanced and fair to all the players, as well as the mods. So, here's my thoughts, please tell me what you think: There are 4 ways to acquire an ally: 1. Receive it: You gain your ally from a special class feature. Examples include: druid's animal companion, wizard's familiar, paladin's special mount. Allies granted by class feature are free to acquire and replace, unless stated otherwise in the text of the class feature. 2. Tame it / Train it: You have an ally that has been tamed and trained via handle animal skill (or perhaps commanded through a domain power). Allies of this nature are acquired through a two step process. First the ally must be defeated in a monster fight (see below). If the ally has a listed price in the MM or PHB, then you may instead pay this price instead of fighting the creature. After taming/buying the creature, it must be trained. If you have sufficient ranks in Handle Animal, you may train the creature yourself. Special abilities (Domain powers that rebuke things, like the Plant domain special ability) may make training unecessary, if they are successfully utilized during the monster fight. If a price is given for training your ally, then you may pay to have it trained. Once an ally is tamed and trained, it is ready to accompany you into the arena. Allies acquired in this manner posess no equipment or treasure unless the PC provides it. 3. Lead it: You posess the Leadership feat and have attracted a cohort to be your ally. The cohort must meet all rules of the feat. The player may create the cohort as an additional PC, using all applicable rules in the three Core 3.5 rulebooks. Cohorts are created with a 25 pt buy, and posess no equipment or treasure unless the player provides it. Note: Due to the extremely dangerous nature of the arena, all gladiators are assumed to have an additional -2 penalty to their Leadership Score. However, since all slain creatures in the arena are revived, gladiators will not receive the standard -2 penalty to their Leadership Score when a cohort dies. Some exhibition matches may be fought to earn prestige for the winners (as reflected by a +1 prestige bonus to the Leadership Score). As the player's Leadership Score improves, cohorts will advance, either by class or by HD, depending on the specific nature of the cohort. Cohorts may not under any circumstances multiclass in such a manner as to have XP penalties. 4. Make it: You have created your ally through a spell effect, or with a crafting feat. This is something of a catch-all category, as it includes Animated Undead, Constructs, and Intelligent Items. a. Animated Dead: The corpse must be acquired in the same manner as Step 1 of the Tame it / Train it process. All spells used in the animating process must be cast by the player, using all normally required material components, (spells such as desecrate, animate dead, etc.) The player must be capable of controlling the undead creature (either by Commanding it, converting it to a Cohort, or using magic). Animated dead posess no equipment or treasure unless it is provided by the player. b. Constructs: Crafting constructs is detailed in each constructs entry in the MM. Treat cost as if you were creating a magic item (see Arena magic item creation rules). Alternately, you may purchase an already crafted construct at standard market value. c. Intelligent Items: Currently these are NOT allowed in the arena, until the Senior Moderators figure out a way to assign the random ability scores and random powers that are generated when such items are created. Some other pertinent rules for allies: -Although a player may acquire many allies using the above methods, only one may be brought into the arena, and that one must be designated prior to pairings. -Allies with prepared spellcasting ability must list their prepared spells in the same manner as prepared spellcasting players. -Due to the Arena's magical ties to the plains of Ysgard and Archeron and of course, the skills of the valiant Arena smiths, all allies (including undead and constructs) are revived, repaired, and restored after each match. -Allies may not be templated creatures, with the exception of templates granted by the player through spell or class ability, or allies acquired as Cohorts through the Leadership feat. Allies may not be advanced creatures, with the exception of Cohorts, who may advance as allowed by the player's Leadership Score. -Monster Fights: Monster fights occur within the arena, using standard arena rules. Should the player win, he passes the monster fight, though he neither gains a level nor recieves any money or reimbursement for items used/destroyed in the fight. Participating in a monster fight counts as fighting in a standard arena match for purposes of active characters, didn't fight notations, etc. For now, only Senior Moderators can moderate monster fights. Each monster fight counts the same as moderating a standard arena match. Well, that's what I have compiled for my suggestion on the Ally rules. Please, let me hear your praise or criticism :D -Jindl |
| Moherajikuyx01-01-04, 06:11 PM | Well, that's a good resume, but nothing really changed. I still don't agree with the point buy/skills&feats selection for cohorts. For moderator workload reasons, if you can't see the intrinsic problems, that I already pointed out. The other things: why would you allow advanced cohorts and not others? If a cohort advances to the point of increasing in size, there's the usual CR problem. I say let everyone advance, which permits some customization (skills, feats, abilities), but not till the size-increase HD. It's simpler and more effective, and more correct with regards to the other kinds of allies. One thing I really like is the idea of the fixed -2 to leadership, it makes people do less bookkeeping. Way to go. |
| Jindl01-01-04, 08:12 PM | Here is a list of most of the "changes" from the old rules in my suggestion: 1. Monster Fights have been incorporated. 2. Classed cohorts are now allowed, and rules for how to list prepared spells included. 3. Intelligent items are not allowed (for now.) 4. All allies are revived/restored/repaired for free after the fight. The only time you may have to pay is when acquiring a new ally. 5. The ally that will accompany you must be designated prior to pairings, for those characters that have multiple allies. 6. No templated allies (with minor exceptions listed). 7. No advanced allies, unless advancement occurs through a class feature or the leadership feat. 8. Monster fights must be mod'd by senior mods. Some of my rationale behind these rules: - I think that there is a certain investment a player must build into his character in order to have an ally. This investment varies based on the type of ally. From most investment to least, I rank them: Class feature, Leadership, Handle Animal, Buy/Make. Class feature obviously requires the most investment by a player, as you must take levels in the class. Leadership is a feat, and thus requires more investment than the skill points you may put in Handle Animal. Thus cohorts should be better than trained animals. Buying/making is the least investment, as it only requires money (since using a feat for craft construct merely saves money, it doesn't carry the weight that using a feat for leadership does.) So, based on this ranking, I gave class features the most benefits (namely easy acquisition and replacement). I gave Leadership the next most benefits (allowing advancement to prevent having to switch cohorts every time you level, and customization but with a weak point buy). Handle animal and craft/make it both recieved the standard ally benefits. The reason that Cohorts can advance while tamed/trained animals cannot is simple. Part of it is to prevent switching out cohorts all the time (this helps mods). But the main logical reason is that advanced creatures are the exceptions. Cohorts are also exceptions. Thats why I think it justified to allow someone to attract an advanced creature with leadership. The exceptional creature seeks out the player. Not so with Handle Animal. In the case of tame it / train it, the player seeks out the monster and tries to subdue it. Since advanced monsters / templated / or otherwise customized monsters are extremely rare, it doesn't make sense that a player could just go find one to fight. Furthermore, how will that player know how many HD or how far advanced the creature he is about to face is? Since handled animals don't improve as the player levels, they don't need to be able to advance, and thus don't gain the benefits of advancement. So, skill points can get you a normal creature, a feat can get you an unusual one capable of advancing. Only Leadership / the use of spells / or special class features can get you a templated creature. While allowing customized cohorts and cohorts with class levels does increase moderator work load, both things are necessary to make the feat worth taking. Both things are also true to the spirit of the rules and what would be found in a real campaign. Hopefully with the -2 for extreme danger, most leadership scores will keep the allies a couple of levels behind the players, and thus reducing somewhat the moderator load. As far as advancement and size increases, it is more of a house rule to disallow size increases than it is to simply allow them for cohorts. So, I set it up to allow size increases as part of advancement. Perhaps this will encourage people to invest in Charisma and spend the feat on Leadership. Don't forget they will still need to spend money on equipping thier cohort. Well, that was some of my thought process on this, lets here what other people think about it :D -Jindl |
| LLMadCow01-01-04, 11:57 PM | What follows is a basic recommendation for Fight Tactics Submission guidelines. Following the guidelines will make everyones life a little easier when it comes to submitting and understanding tactics for combat. Pick the style of entry that works for you or some combination therein. Edit out what you do not need. As a moderator, I can safely say that many of the tactics received from participants are difficult to understand. Please help us understand what your goals are for your character. These notes are VERY similar to what I have used many times before. Different styles work out for different characters and different tactics. Enjoy! ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- My Fighter vs. My Opponent Notes: Anything that is not listed in the tactics section and needs to be remembered. This can include: Character Description Easily overlooked aspects of characters abilities Always (Fill in the blank) Never (Fill in the blank) Enter arena with xxx and yyy Heal at xxHP Etc, etc Tactics Round 1 - Round 2 - Round 3 - Round 4 - Step 1 - Step 2 - Step 3 - Step 4 - If xxx then yyy Else xxx Closing comments on the upcoming fight as needed and/or desired. Please contact me if there are any questions about my tactics. My Screenname |
| LLMadCow01-02-04, 12:21 AM | @Jindl - Well, there is quite a bit to review. Here are my thoughts and opinions. 1st - Great work. A lot of thought and effort went into this and it shows. Thanks for posting this, and editing this, for use to read and review. 2nd - I agree with the -2 applied due to the nature of the arena, but I disagree with +1 modifiers from exhibition matches. What I am much more in favor of is looking at a PCs Win/Loss record. Offer up a +1 per 3 wins and counter this with a -1 per 3 losses. So when a player has a 6 Wins and 2 Losses record, they have a total Record Modifier of +2. However when that same PC loses another fight, their Record Modifier drops to +1. 3rd - I totally disagree with declaring your companion prior to fight postings. Companions should be a little like equipment. Sometimes you want to ride a horse into combat, and other times you want to have your wolf stoll into the arena by your side. Declaring prior to fight postings really hamstrings a player from his fully available tactics. 4th - Building a cohort. I have mixed emotions about this. Perhaps there needs to be posted Stat allocations for each class and this is ONLY modified by any recial modifiers. So, all Rogue cohorts would have the same starting stats. On the other side of things, I completely agree that a PC has enough of an influence to impact the advancement of a cohort. So, that being said, once the cohort is in the arena, the player can define all aspects of the cohort advancement. Use the STARTING PACKAGE Skill and Feat recomendations for all 1st level cohorts. For any cohort who enters the arena above 1st level, the 1st level is standard and all other levels are chosen by the player. That is about it for now. More comments later. |
| SnarkHunter01-02-04, 12:48 AM | So... no pairings this week? :(. Looks good Jindle. LL one thing I would include with a stanard tactics feat is the date (or the iteration if a number of different tactics sent) in a large prominent location. That could save a little of the past confusion. |
| Jindl01-02-04, 01:05 AM | Originally posted by LLMadCow 1st - Great work. A lot of thought and effort went into this and it shows. Thanks for posting this, and editing this, for use to read and review. And thank you for the compliment and the ideas !! Originally posted by LLMadCow 2nd - I agree with the -2 applied due to the nature of the arena, but I disagree with +1 modifiers from exhibition matches. What I am much more in favor of is looking at a PCs Win/Loss record. Offer up a +1 per 3 wins and counter this with a -1 per 3 losses. So when a player has a 6 Wins and 2 Losses record, they have a total Record Modifier of +2. However when that same PC loses another fight, their Record Modifier drops to +1. This is an interesting idea. But I see two potential problems. The first is that as PC's get to higher levels, they will have more wins, and thus the cohorts will almost always be at the maximum level (2 levels behind the pc). The second is that we need a reward to give the winners of the exhibition matches (like the good vs evil match), and a prestige bonus to leadership (which doesn't stack btw) seemed like a good idea. I would suggest that any such prestige award only be good for the next 5 fights, as fame is a temporary thing, unless renewed by more exhibition matches. But it could still boost your cohort for a couple of levels. Originally posted by LLMadCow 3rd - I totally disagree with declaring your companion prior to fight postings. Companions should be a little like equipment. Sometimes you want to ride a horse into combat, and other times you want to have your wolf stoll into the arena by your side. Declaring prior to fight postings really hamstrings a player from his fully available tactics. There are two reasons I suggest this: The first is that it would be nearly impossible to write tactics to use against an opponent who could either bring in their Wizard cohort, their animated Stone Giant skeleton, or their animal handled Megaraptor. That's like needing three different sets of tactics. Plus, can you imagine trying to prepare the other half of your spells against this kind of unknown? So, to help with tactics preparation, you have to declare which ally will accompany you. Note: Since most people have only 1 ally, this isn't too big a deal. It just limits the advantage of having multiple allies. The second reason is the prepared spells issue. Allies must follow the same rules as gladiators, meaning they must list half thier prepared spells. So, this ties in nicely to matching up which ally will be in the fight. Originally posted by LLMadCow 4th - Building a cohort. I have mixed emotions about this. Perhaps there needs to be posted Stat allocations for each class and this is ONLY modified by any recial modifiers. So, all Rogue cohorts would have the same starting stats. On the other side of things, I completely agree that a PC has enough of an influence to impact the advancement of a cohort. So, that being said, once the cohort is in the arena, the player can define all aspects of the cohort advancement. Use the STARTING PACKAGE Skill and Feat recomendations for all 1st level cohorts. For any cohort who enters the arena above 1st level, the 1st level is standard and all other levels are chosen by the player. I had considered using the elite array, arranged to taste, but that makes many classes unplayable as cohorts, especially at the higher levels (a 15 in your spellcasting stat means no spells higher than 5th, which is what a 9th level cohort could cast... and this is an unnecessary limit). So, I went with the 25 pt buy. I don't think you can easily abuse such a low stat buy method. Keep in mind that cohorts are adventurers too, unlike handled animals or wandering monsters (who were either pressed into service or are just out living their lives). Cohorts travel with PC's because they like to adventure, and thus the customization and pt buy seems appropriate. Thanks for your comments, please feel free to respond to my ideas. I am sincerely looking for ways to improve these ally rules and get them standardized, and to do it soon (before those level 9's wake up). -Jindl |
| Moherajikuyx01-02-04, 05:44 AM | Yes, adding these rules before the lvl 9s get in seems the best thing. Jindl your work is good, I will likely copy, edit &paste that post into the rules, but we have to remove nonsense first ;) I take back the role of moderator of the discussion, it seems we need it. So, here's the agenda. - the classes are out for now, sorry, else we'll not be able to start ever. Let's discuss a thing at a time (I missed them before). - no templates, ok (same as classes: to be discussed later) - customizable cohorts to "make the feat worth it": nonsense, leadership was taken already before allowing that. Let's discuss this kind of thing later, as well. (No one asked for that yet) - allies are revived/restored/repaired for free: seems good. The above stuff is in next week's agenda. The (simpler) below things are for this week agenda. Notice that nothing is allowed this week: it's just discussion. Ok? - I agree with LL, declaring the ally doesn't make any sense. - cohorts: ok. I would add the -2 (a cohort was killed) for x fights as well: it balances out with the prestige bonus, and killling a cohort has to be a sound strategy in battle. I'd make them both 3 instead than 5, it lessens the bookkeeping. - Monster fights must be mod'd by senior mods: ok. I add the option to run them on turn basis, with the mod that controls the monster and the player controlling the pc, on a thread made purposedly for that fight. If a player looks for a suitable moderator (same time zone, ...) and they decide for some dates, it will not be impossible, and it will let players... Play. - Advanceds. As the animals don't have LA, not allowing advanced ones to handlers means disallowing the advanced ones: leadership won't help with animals. If I am an animal handler and I want a wolf/lion/horse, then I'll go get the pup of an alpha wolf/stallion/pack leader, not any one: advanceds not only exist, and are not so rare, they're easily recognizable to boot. I will not permit to delete a core rule (advanceds) for an house rule; I don't even understand the logics behind. We'd rather let them in. Let's let advancement up to the same size only, to keep it under control, for now. Advancing cohorts is an easily trackable form of customization of cohorts, which uses the same rules. Using the same rules is good for the sake of simplicity. I don't want to add a billion of new rules, the ones we have already scare people - many don't read them when beginning. Corrections to do to pcs - Iku rex is not a cornugon Jindl, he had to have 15 HDs to be polyed into one to begin with I think; Cat missed this, and let Iku use it, ok: to bad for the used resources. I'm also not entirely convinced about the +9 to duration factor. But the one clear thing is that death -> reverts to std form is not part of the duration of Poly, it's in the description, so death made Iku get back to his std form because the description doesn't say that disappears in PAO. PAO is the less clear spell of the list, but the few things that it says should not be ignored. - Snark, Hanz should have his cohort's values normalized, we didn't decide for the customization yet. Come on guys, the arena was fun till now... I set them ready because they can be corrected in the tactics mail: as usual, don't edit the sheets please. |
| Tharkos01-02-04, 05:44 AM | Originally posted by Jindl There are two reasons I suggest this: The first is that it would be nearly impossible to write tactics to use against an opponent who could either bring in their Wizard cohort, their animated Stone Giant skeleton, or their animal handled Megaraptor. That's like needing three different sets of tactics. Plus, can you imagine trying to prepare the other half of your spells against this kind of unknown? So, to help with tactics preparation, you have to declare which ally will accompany you. Note: Since most people have only 1 ally, this isn't too big a deal. It just limits the advantage of having multiple allies. The second reason is the prepared spells issue. Allies must follow the same rules as gladiators, meaning they must list half thier prepared spells. So, this ties in nicely to matching up which ally will be in the fight. I see one problem with declaring the "companion" prior to the match: If BOTH have several choices then the one who declares his companion first has a disadvantage. Kinda like: "Oh Harvester is not riding his flying Dragon this match ? Then I will take my flying mount so I can kill him with arrows from above." or "Oh Harvester is riding his Undead Dragon ? Then I will take my Cleric buddy who has maxed turn undead capability." (not possible atm, but who knows ...). I think flexibility is a good thing to have in your own character and in a "real" environment (as opposed to the arena) you dont usually know what you will be facing. If you are so fixed upon one method of winning then that is your problem IMO. Once people can cast PAO or any kind of other long-term stuff you dont know what to expect anyway. Companions / mounts and cohorts are probably most effective for the "fighter-style" character concepts and I would leave them this one advantage over the "caster-style" concepts who will do the same with their long-term preparation buffs. Some casters might even be willing to call outsiders to help for a single fight, even though it might cost a little, and since that would be a "spell effect" the companion wouldnt need to be declared anyway. |
| Moherajikuyx01-02-04, 07:06 AM | Well said Tharkos. In the meanwhile I did the PAIRINGS! As every moderator had to get a credit, I decided instead to give none: it looks more fair to the poor, bitter souls that can't play! :) When the people comes back from holidays, I'll add the new polls for the allies. (Let me keep all the polls closed for a while at least... :rolleyes: ) BTW I updated the rules, adding the missing polls results. Edit: if anyone gets back to life within two days, we'll be able to add him to the fights; notice in particular lvls 2, 3 and 5 that aren't even. |
| Mercy01-02-04, 07:34 AM | @LLMadCow - I won't be able to sent you tactics till late. I'm off to work now, but I'll send some once I get back. |
| Jindl01-02-04, 11:27 AM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Corrections to do to pcs - Iku rex is not a cornugon Jindl, he had to have 15 HDs to be polyed into one to begin with I think; Cat missed this, and let Iku use it, ok: to bad for the used resources. I'm also not entirely convinced about the +9 to duration factor. But the one clear thing is that death -> reverts to std form is not part of the duration of Poly, it's in the description, so death made Iku get back to his std form because the description doesn't say that disappears in PAO. PAO is the less clear spell of the list, but the few things that it says should not be ignored. Thanks to Tharkos for the reply below. The subjects HD is too low, and thus Mo is correct about the Cornugon form being unattainable at this level. Please note the rest of my arguments, should this issue come up later (like when a character does have enough HD for this trick). The scroll's caster level was 15, thus he could become a 15 HD creature with the outsider type -> Cornugon. Lets see: +5 for same kingdom -> check. +2 for same type (outsider) -> check. +2 for same or lower intelligence -> check. Yep, that's +9. Polymorph Any Object says specifically that the duration is changed. Name me a single other permanent spell effect that ends with death. There isn't one. And Polymorph Any Object doesn't state that it ends with death. To the contrary, it can create forms that aren't alive. Death has no impact on the polymorph any object spell duration. That's why it's like polymorph except for duration (and when the spell ends is by defination what it's duration is). Take the example of turning a human into a tuft of hair. You then scatter the hair, which according to the PAO spell description, kills the human. Does the human then revert into lots of tiny bloody pieces? Of course not, he remains in the form of scattered hairs, because the duration was permanent. Polymorph any object can also duplicate the spell: flesh to stone. What happens when you destroy a statue made with this spell? Does the rock revert back to flesh when destroyed? No, it doesn't. And if PAO can duplicate this spell, then its effect must not end with death either. If you are going to try and tell me that polymorph any object in its permanent form ends with death, then you need to back it up with some rules, and you need to tell me why reduce person + permancy doesn't work the same way. For now, Iku Rex retains his polymorph effect. Or at least he would, if he had 15 HD when he used the scroll. -Jindl EDIT: Also, why are you denying credits this round? Some of us were saving them up to try and use the 3 credits = +1 starting ECL rule. |
| Tharkos01-02-04, 11:48 AM | Originally posted by Jindl The scroll's caster level was 15, thus he could become a 15 HD creature with the outsider type -> Cornugon. Polymorph Any Object states: "The assumed form can't have more HD than your caster level (or the subject's HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level." Iku Rex is the "subject" in this case ... the subject of the spell ... and he does NOT have 15 HD, rather a lowly 3 HD at the time and so the spell doesnt work as you intend it to use. Neat idea, but look for lower HD monsters ... |
| Sir Cridion01-02-04, 11:54 AM | Happy New Year everybody! @Mo: I'm ALIIIVE... ;) Could you put Aeriel and only Aeriel on the pairings this week? I don't think I'll have enough time to mod though, so could you take me off the mod list this week? Thanks |
| Jindl01-02-04, 12:04 PM | Hrm. Well, thanks Tharkos. Did they errata that, or was it always that way (and I just missed it)? Well, since Iku doesn't have his polymorph effect (being unable to turn into a cornugon), and he blew all of his money to buy that PAO scroll, and I didn't find this out until after the opportunity to buy equipment for this week, I don't know what to do. So, Iku will likely retire. I'll use my 3 credits to start a new + improved version of the fighting sorceror, but this time at ECL 3, and won't make the mistake of trying really cool polymorph tricks until he is higher level. @Mo - It's up to you whether you want to run Iku's fight with the following default tactics, or just give Cat the free win. Unless some miracle Zorander happens, and Iku wins, he'll be retiring after this match. Default tactics: Cast see invis from scroll if necessary. Cast shield. Try to maintain distance. Shoot him with Longbow (+7 to hit, 1d8 damage), recast shield as necessary, cast true strike if the opportunity presents itself. -Jindl |
| Tharkos01-02-04, 12:11 PM | I semi-misquoted it .... Polymorph Any Object says "This spell functions like polymorph, ...." and the quoted text above is in the POLYMORPH spell description ... |
| Jindl01-02-04, 12:18 PM | So Tharkos, that section was in the polymorph spell description, and not in the PAO description? Upon further review, I think that PAO may override this "subject's HD" restriction. The spell specifically lists the example of turning a shrew into a manticore. I don't think it was referring to a shrew with 6 HD, do you? Based on this example in the SRD, I think that PAO would override the subjects HD restriction of polymorph. If this is the case, then Iku does in fact retain his cornugon form, and Cat is in for a fight. What do you think, Tharkos (and others)? -Jindl |
| sshuit01-02-04, 12:24 PM | @jindl. Your interpretation looks right. PS. What is a cornugon? |
| Moherajikuyx01-02-04, 12:33 PM | :P Hey this is a coup d'état trial :P Luckily Tharkos defended me... By being clearer than I am. Thanks Tharkos! Jindl, the "as Poly" thing is in the SRD, I hope it's not different from the PH; if it is, I have to say that the SRD takes precedence, this loophole alone would be enough to decide. You could appeal to the is a lizard->manticore example in PAO (or something like), I fear that is not enough: it might be a) a wrong example b) proof that things with int<2 should be treated as objects in relation to this spell. That spell is really poorly worded :( Anyways, I like your aggressive approach to the discussion, it means you really like the arena! :D credits: I'm not denying credits to everyone, I'm deleting a column to every active moderator; I'm considering moderators with no pcs in play as inactive (they don't lose or get credits) to differentiate them from the moderators with a pc in play but who don't want to moderate; I think that's fair, but if you see problems in this tell us. Anyways: as Cat's got the free win, and you retire Iku - as I guess you prefer - you get a credit more, so let's see this ECL 3 wonder! |
| Jindl01-02-04, 12:33 PM | Originally posted by sshuit @jindl. Your interpretation looks right. PS. What is a cornugon? It's also called a Horned Devil (listed that way in the MM and SRD). @Mo - FYI: A shrew is a small burrowing mammal. At this point, I want to know what everyone thinks about whether PAO ignores the subject's HD. If it does, then I believe that Iku would retain his Cornugon form, in which case there is no need to retire him. If not, then you have the option of running the fight, just to make Cat use resources as appropriate (I did provide some default tactics in my above post). I agree that the PAO spell is very poorly worded, but here's the final analysis I came up with: It works like polymorph, except allowable targets and types are not restricted, and the duration changes. The target list is expanded to include objects, and the final types list is no longer restricted to the types listed in polymorph. The duration of polymorph (which was 1 min/lvl or death) is changed to be a flat duration based off of the similarity of the forms (duration is no longer affected by caster level or death). Since it works like polymorph (and can't duplicate shapechange), I assumed that the subject gains the extraordinary special attack, but no other extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like abilities of the new form. Additionally, the subject still loses all non-class based extraordinary or supernatural abilities (but retains his racial spell-like abilities, such as an aasimar's daylight 1/day). Also, since it works like polymorph, the caster level determines the maximun HD of the new form. But, unlike polymorph, the PAO spell ignores the subjects HD for determining what new forms are possible (indeed it must, as objects do not have HD yet they are valid targets for the spell, also the example in the SRD lists a shrew - 1/8 HD, changed into a manticore - 6 HD). So, that is the gist of my reasoning and interpretation of PAO. It would have been nice if the developers had put a little more effort into clarifying this spell, but I think my interpretation is pretty accurate. What do you guys think? -Jindl |
| Moherajikuyx01-02-04, 12:36 PM | Darn! You guys are too fast. Jindl, I answered your above question I guess. Sir Cridion, if you edit Aerel (bring in the subject line ready for New Year) she's playing against LL's character, who declared to be ok with it already. Try to not look at him while editing. |
| sshuit01-02-04, 12:42 PM | One problem Jindl. You don't have the 18 Cha required to cast Polymorph any object! :P DMG Pg. 238. Or did you pay to have it cast on you? |
| Moherajikuyx01-02-04, 12:43 PM | Argh! I'm slow. Even if we (I believe, wrongly) accept the "HDs don't count" there si still the duration thing. PAO isn't instantaneous, while flesh to stone is, so that example doesn't work; the "reverts to std form" part of Poly is thus to be considered. Objects die when their hps reach 0 (are sundered), at that point they revert. Unless you find anything that says the opposite. And frankly, do you really think that doing a strange interpretation of a poorly written spell example should make CR 4 people fight against a cornugon? sshuit - Hey! You're on holidays you lurker! :rofl: Wanna play? |
| sshuit01-02-04, 12:47 PM | I leave for Mexico tomorrow. I expect my internet access to be nonexistant or expen$ive! I really wanted to play this week too. I've got big plans for Voliana :P Happy new year to all! |
| Jindl01-02-04, 12:48 PM | Originally posted by sshuit One problem Jindl. You don't have the 18 Cha required to cast Polymorph any object! :P DMG Pg. 238. Or did you pay to have it cast on you? Yeah, Iku cast eagles splendor from a scroll during the fight, prior to attempting to use the scroll: PAO. -Jindl |
| sshuit01-02-04, 12:50 PM | Well it all looks well and good, but since everyone will just concede their fights to you for the next 10 levels or so it doesn't seem very fun to me ! Nice min/max job though! |
| Jindl01-02-04, 12:58 PM | Originally posted by sshuit Well it all looks well and good, but since everyone will just concede their fights to you for the next 10 levels or so it doesn't seem very fun to me ! Nice min/max job though! Thanks! BTW: There are still plenty of ways to defeat Iku, even when he is in cornugon form: 1. He still has Hp's based off his sorceror class (and he's still got one less HD for his aasimar heritage). 2. He is vulnerable to dispel magic, dispelling the PAO requires a 1d20+dispel magic caster level >= 26, so it's not easy but definately possible. Greater dispelling makes it much easier, but that prolly won't happen til later. 3. His saves are not the best, especially that +5 will save. 4. His touch ac is fairly low, and a tanglefoot bag would drop it by 2 more, making him easy prey to scorching rays, shocking grasps, enervations, etc. I agree that he is a tough opponent, but only for fighter types (who would have a tough time hitting his regular AC). Indeed, a couple of melf's acid arrows would really tear him up. I certainly wouldn't concede my matches to him, though I would certainly try to attack one of the above weaknesses. -Jindl |
| Tharkos01-02-04, 01:08 PM | I think the sentence "This spell functions like polymorph, ..." means that Polymorph Any Object has all the limitations which Polymorph has except where they are directly negated in the PAO spell text. I dont see anything negating the "subject HD requirement", so its pretty clear this is also a requirement for PAO. Polymorph Any Object doesnt say anything about what creatures might become (with the exception perhaps that objects can be transformed as well ..) because Polymorph already does so. The same applies to the HD-limit. Changing a 3 HD creature into a Cornugon is a pretty munchkinny thing to do, but maybe you can find a creature with tons of stats and low HD to satisfy you. In any case I predict the necessity for a dozen or so Dispel Magics on everyones list will increase if this tactic gets widely used because it can still be dispelled. Oh and ... Iku Rex is a traitor to Aasimar beliefs and principles and deserves to die !!!! |
| Jindl01-02-04, 01:20 PM | Originally posted by Tharkos I think the sentence "This spell functions like polymorph, ..." means that Polymorph Any Object has all the limitations which Polymorph has except where they are directly negated in the PAO spell text. I dont see anything negating the "subject HD requirement", so its pretty clear this is also a requirement for PAO. Well, I think the shrew to manticore example is pretty clear proof that the "subject's HD" requirement is negated by PAO. How do you explain this example, if the subjects HD limitation is still in effect? Originally posted by Tharkos Changing a 3 HD creature into a Cornugon is a pretty munchkinny thing to do, but maybe you can find a creature with tons of stats and low HD to satisfy you. In any case I predict the necessity for a dozen or so Dispel Magics on everyones list will increase if this tactic gets widely used because it can still be dispelled. I agree that it is cheezy, in fact, I mentioned in my Tactics to Cat (vs Jagath) that I think this is the my greatest cheez. PAO is already houseruled in my game to meet the criteria listed in my interpretation post (see above). Originally posted by Tharkos Oh and ... Iku Rex is a traitor to Aasimar beliefs and principles and deserves to die !!!! Yep, that's the definition of evil :D As Mo eloquently put it "Hey this is a coup d'état trial." If we can come to an agreement on how this spell operates in the arena, then I will certainly abide by it. I just am not convinced yet. @Mo - please do run the Iku vs Dr. Dre fight (regardless of the outcome of our PAO discussion). I dislike the idea of free rides... -Jindl |
| Mercy01-02-04, 02:05 PM | @All Originally posted by Jindl Well, I think the shrew to manticore example is pretty clear proof that the "subject's HD" requirement is negated by PAO. How do you explain this example, if the subjects HD limitation is still in effect? Well, I would explain it as a poor cut and paste of the 3.0 version of the spell that is more concerned on explaining the duration of the spell then it is on explaining the limitations of what can be turned into what. Also I find it interesting that the latest Errata of 3.0 PHB mentions "baleful polymorph" in the changes to the PAO spell, when "baleful polymorph" didn't exist in the 3.0 version of the game. I think it's a poorly worded spell with bad examples, but that's just my opinion. Edit: Just realized I was looking at the Errata for 3.5 PHB and not the 3.0 version. |
| Jindl01-02-04, 02:43 PM | Originally posted by Caterane @Mo: Acknowledged. I`ll leave for Berlin in an hour so I won`t be able to run a fight this week. Vandaeris is ready though and I will be able to send tactics at least. Happy new year to all of you! @Mo - If you need to reassign the fight Cat was gonna moderate, I can handle it (lookit me, collecting more credits, hahaha!!) -Jindl |
| Sir Cridion01-02-04, 03:23 PM | @Mo: Aeriel is ready for New Years - I didn't edit anything except the subject line and the hp to fit the new system. Thanks for the letting me join in. |
| Moherajikuyx01-02-04, 03:23 PM | Possible explanations: a) the animal has class levels b) the spell treats <3 int things as objects c) the example is just an example, so no rules are to be induced from it And BTW, it reverts to normal form when dead. OK for the fight. *Edit* I updated the roster. NOTE TO DMS - enforce the new hp rule please! (I forgot to edit them too :blush: ) |
| MotherBast01-02-04, 04:43 PM | About my upcomming fight, note that Brackin's HP is miscalculated, and he has 2 more HP than listed. I only gave him 6 HP from his Con bonus when he should have 8. About the Poly topic. I would have to agree with Jindl that the fact that PAO can target objects without hitdice would suggest the HD limit does not apply to PAO, else it couldn't polly ANY object, only objects with HD. Also, everyone is assuming the shrew to mantacore example is a mistake, when it is highly likely it isen't a mistake at all. Im sure everyone here has heard "The simplest explanation is most often correct." In this case, Jindl's intrepretation of the spell would certanly be the simplest. As far as reverting when the spell ends, no Permanet effect ends with death, not one. Permanet means just that, Forever. Why anyone would think that PAO is the exception to the rule is beyond fathoming. A quick refrence of the spell gives the durations for its effects. Jindl is correct in that his perticular use of the spell amounted to a permanet duration. This duration also superceeds the duration listed under the Polly spell discription, just like every other duration under PAO supperceeds it. As the way things stand now, it seems its not Jindl who would need to prove he is still in his super cheesey form, but everyone else who would need to prove he isen't. Personaly, I don't like the idea of him being able to do it, probably because I didn't think of it first, but it seems completly withen the rules. About allies, as someone who has a character with the leadership feat, I love Jindl's suggestions. However, as someone who wishes to continue playing this thread, I have to warn aginst them. Alowing Classed cohorts is a bad idea. It is also not in the spirit of arena combat. Its easy to justify bringing a beast of some type into the arena, if you fight with a wolf, or a mount, then its been allowed all along. Now, through feats/skills/abilitys, more powerful "creatures" can be attained. But second "characters" have never been alowed in the arena. It has always been one on one, and should stay that way. Candessa would love to have a big strong barbarian to use her melee enhancment skills on, but then its not really a fight against Candy, its against the Barbarian with the bard backing him up. Leadership is fine the way were running it now. Candy will still be attaining followers as she incresses in level, and they will not be ineffective, nor will they become the focus of the character, if leadership remains as is. Also, there is no need to allow advancement for cohorts, as a cohort can easly be dismissed and replaced as he falls behind the powercurve. If nothing else can advance, cohorts shouldn't either. I do agree that the -2 to leadership should not be incureed apon cohort death, as death isen't really death in the arena, and the -2 due to danger sounds good too. I also agree with Jindl aginst the advancement of purchased/reared animals. These creatures due not normaly appear in nature. They will never appear without DM intervention. If you run a campagin using random encounter tables, you will never roll an advanced creature. The example about the alpha male wolf is also exagerated. The alpha male could just as easly be a wolf with 1 point higher strength, or even more likely, is completly typical for his pack, but defeated the formar alpha, who was also completly typical for his kind. After all, a wolf with 13 strength could still be marginaly stronger than another wolf with 13 strength, just not enough to matter on a scale of 3 to 18. Also, even if a wolf was advanced, by a single HD, how would it then be easly recognizable? It isen't bigger, it isen't stronger, it isen't a different color..... its the same exact wolf as it was before it advanced a HD..... and unless you speek wolf, your not likely to know which wolf is leading a pack without some way to actually interact with that pack. I have ran wolf-packs before. I never even created an "alpha male". The players wern't likely to stop and try and figure out which of the ravonus wolves attacking them was the alpha, so neither did I. Now, lets get away from wolves and talk about, oh, say, Hydras for example. Not a pack animal, so no Alphas to concider. How could anyone tell an advanced hydra from a non-advanced hydra? See where I'm going with this? Megaraptors..... How could you possibly know if one is advanced? And how on earth did you stumble on the 1 in a million raptor that was? Templates of course are out by almost everyones opinion, so no need to even discuss this. As far as customization of allies go, I was in favor of using the standard aray, and building your own. After reading several discussions on it though, I have to agree with MO now, for the same reason I dissagree with him on advancement. The listed scores in the MM are what is typical for the race. Anything else would be DM adjucated. You would never fight a non-typical creature if using a random encounter generator, and your not likely to be able to tell the difference between a creature with 15 strength, and one with 16, so "finding" an allie with just the stats your looking for seems highly unlikely. We have been running defalt mounts and allie untill now, and it has worked fine. No need to change. It seems much simpler to simply declare that "everything" is default. Well, that was a much larger post than I entinded. [edit] also, please note that I will not be able to send tactics till tomarrow. due to the delay in pairings, i hope my moderators will understand and wait before running my fights. |
| Moherajikuyx01-02-04, 05:55 PM | Oh yes I forgot, the delaying in the pairings should make us wait a bit more for the tactics this week. MB, I have to insist that the revert on death thing of Poly is not part of the duration, it is part of the spell itself. About the HDs, PAO adds to Poly, so it can poly things with HDs, plus objects, which is an even simpler explanation. About hps: everyone, plz send the new hps with the tactics. |
| Alterlat01-02-04, 08:33 PM | I'd say the best idea would be to leave Iku inactive until we can get some clarification on the PAO thing. The spell is horrendously worded, and appears to totally contradict itself on the hitdice issue. Its simply so unclear that some sort of ruling is needed before it can be used. |
| Tharkos01-02-04, 09:38 PM | Originally posted by Alterlat The spell is horrendously worded, and appears to totally contradict itself on the hitdice issue. Its simply so unclear that some sort of ruling is needed before it can be used. I dont think its that badly worded with ONE exception ... the examples can be misleading IMO. |
| cellardweller01-02-04, 10:32 PM | Originally posted by Alterlat I'd say the best idea would be to leave Iku inactive until we can get some clarification on the PAO thing. Cheezy as it is, I can't see anything wrong with Jindl's interpretation of the spell. If all parties agree, Smushy will gladly trade opponents with The Professor and fight Devil-Iku this round while issue is being discussed. |
| SnarkHunter01-03-04, 12:07 AM | I think if theres one thing we can all agree upon it's that Polymorph any Object makes baby jesus cry. Yes. Anyway now that my sacrilige is out of the way for the day: Tactics sent for Hanz and recieved for Rito. The hp's are off on your characters by the way Mo. You've maxed the first level, and with MM rules for hp's you don't do that. Tah. |
| cellardweller01-03-04, 02:07 AM | Tactics for Smushy vs Dusk and Smushy vs Dusk have both be sent as I won't be around for 36hrs or so to see the outcome of my proposal. |
| LLMadCow01-03-04, 03:21 AM | My Tactics for Cliodhna and Herrix have been sent. I have received tactics for Targ. I need tactics for Peter. I will run my fight on Monday, but perhaps as late as Tuesday. Good night all. I can barely type straight and Beer + Egg Nog do not seem to mix it up very weel in my belly. Off to sleep... |
| Moherajikuyx01-03-04, 05:05 AM | Hi people! - hps: the new method is first max, then MM rules. I believe this is what the majority voted: Snark, your note made me think, I'll check. - Iku: Iku's untouched by the PAO issue now, no need to wait or change opponents: I'll try to be clearer. The spell duration may not have ended, I'm not sure about this, but part of the spell effect was to revert to human form on death, because PAO is as Poly except where noted, and Poly targets revert on death (NOT on spell end). This is pretty straight forward reading the spells, even though it's absurd logically - which is why it kept me so much from understanding. But hey... It's magic. Don't use logics. So, Iku is an aasimar, with a permanent lvl 8 transmutation aura from PAO, which made him go cornugon and go back. Well, it will help against area dispels... :rolleyes: though luck for that investment Jindl. Sadly, nowhere it says that it reverts again to polyed form when revived. The thing we have to solve is not about Iku so: it's about PAO itself. I believe that the spell still needs the HDs in case of non-objects and non-animals: I believe it's a simpler solution then deciding that just the animal example opens it to any user; I don't think Iku could have polyed on the first place. I believe that the possibility of doing it on a classed character would need a specific example, and that the animal example is instead part of the "enlargement" of the spell from Poly. The shrew in the example could as well be dead, thus really being an object... That would make everything work. Obviously, that spell was never playtested as we're doing now, else they would've told something, so we sadly have to be game designers and decide for it once and for all. Luckily, now no one is directly interested in that spell, so let's try to decide that now. I suggest no one uses that spell till we decide. Cat & Jindl, send (or confirm) tactics please. |
| Tharkos01-03-04, 06:41 AM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Obviously, that spell was never playtested as we're doing now, else they would've told something, so we sadly have to be game designers and decide for it once and for all. Luckily, now no one is directly interested in that spell, so let's try to decide that now. IMO the whole 3.5 wasnt playtested ... at least not thoroughly enough ... because there are soooo many horrible wording problems. I suggest we start thinking about the unclear / broken stuff while we are tackling PAO. It is better to deal with them before someone tries to use it. unlimited vorpal longswords from shapechange (change to Balor and get a Vorpal Longsword ((Su) ability !!), drop it change to something else and repeat it ...) ... they could simply be sold for 36k each, theoretically unlimited hit dice (and Charisma) from repeated castings of Awaken (nothing in the spell description says it can only be cast ONCE per target and you ALWAYS get +2 HD and +1-3 Cha !!!). All you need it to change your type to "Animal" (>>Polymorph / Wildshape) and have the spell cast on you (or do it yourself in the case of a druid), the various "sacrifice elder god as spell component" problems (read chonjurers post) ... Those are several of the bigger issues off the top of my head, but maybe you have some others too. And if you want to look at the "inspirational summary" LOOK HERE (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=86768) (Warning: its LONG). |
| MotherBast01-03-04, 10:20 AM | I have been wondering if Jindl was ever going to try the awaken trick. I never mentioned it before, because I didn't want to point it out if he wasen't aware of it. A lot of high end spells do have a lot of problems associated with them. Some, like PAO stem from lack of clear rules. I have been thinking about it for the last two days, and I still see no way to suggest Iku Rex is not still pollymorphed. I get that the spell refrences Polly, which does end in death, but polly isen't permanet, and the PAO spell description makes specific refrence to Pollymorphing creatures into objects, and then grinding the objects, or spreading them across great distances. These senerios suggest the "object" wouldn't revert to its real form. This is one of those "the DM makes a call" situations. Here, we have the misfortune of not having a single individual deciding matters like this. No vote could take place in time for the fights, so it seems Iku should just sit out after this week, and then a vote on how to handle PAO should take place, and next week the vote will affect Iku. Or, we could vote to make it someone's job to find the answers to tricky spells like this, and all agree to abide by the final intrepration given by that player, reguardless of wether or not we agree with the intrepration. It would be a lot of work for the player though. Jindl and Tellish are both pretty solid on the rules. I would vote for either of them, and there might be other Mod's here who played wizards every game of there lives, and know the spells back to front who might want to volenter for the position, if we decide to go that way. It would be easer than voting on every spell, but we would be at the mercy of the decisions of a single body. More efficent, but less control. Well, I have to tactics to type up. Good luck to the diehard players compeating this week. |
| sshuit01-03-04, 11:01 AM | Re : PAO I think Jindl's interpretation is correct as I've said. As a DM I would not allow using the "outsider" type to PAO into a Cornugon from a Aasamir however. One is a LG type outsider and one is a CE type outsider. I'd certainly allow a Tiefling to do it. (much more logical) but it seems kinda a stretch to say a LG and CE are "related types" more like "opposite types" IMO. So more like +5 same kingdom. +2 same or lower Intelligence. So +7 duration, not +9. but that is really a DM call. |
| fluiddragon01-03-04, 11:32 AM | I couldn't resist such a juicy rules debate. From the SRD: This spell functions like polymorph, except that it changes one object or creature into another. The duration of the spell depends on how radical a change is made from the original state to its enchanted state. The duration is determined by using the following guidelines. The duration of PAO is one of the significant differences of Polymorph and PAO. This is the 2nd line of the spell. In the case of a permenant duration from ANY spell the spell is still ineffect unless dispelled. Death is irrelevent in regards to the duration of any permenent effect. If the duraction of PAO is permenant like any other permenant effect the death of the subject does not revert his form. Death then dispell would. If he had a permentant enlarge cast upon him he would still be enlarged. from the srd 1 min./level ... If slain, the subject reverts to its original form, though it remains dead. The duration of PAO can override this aspect of polymorph if the duraction is permenent. Though it would be debateable if the polymorphed object/creature would revert on an non-permenent change. In regards to the hit dice issue. PAO is much different than Polymorph. The spell gives a chart of various examples (not the best examples) but it lists 2 low hit dice animals, lizard and shrew, that are PAO into a manticore, and the resulting duration. Niether one of these examples is listed as being dead. To say they are dead and thus an object is a pretty big stretch of the reasoning. PAO is not restricted by hit dice but by realationships between the new form and the original form. Hit dice is a concern for the less effective 5th level spell. Not the 8th level spell. There are a number of ways PAO is better and different from Polymorph. To say otherwise are house rules (which even Jindl admits he has house-ruled in his campaign). The spell is easily abused, and relatively cheap. But there is no FAQ governing it and no erreta. So you have to go with the printed rules despite how stupid they seem. And in regards to the outsider alignment issue. An outsider is defined by type not alignment as far as the effects of PAO are concerend Iku is evil not good. You can be an evil assimar or a good tiefling. There are not restrictions on duration for the outsider type, this would be a house rule. An outsider is an outsider. Types are clearly defined. So Jindls interpretation is correct according to the rules. Though it is cheesy and an abuse of the rules it does work. Anything else is a house rule. If you want to house rule it cool just say so. -fd |
| Caterane01-03-04, 11:42 AM | Ilene McPherson vs Laness DeVille (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2230694#post2230694) Edit: Hey Fluid, you`re back!! |
| MotherBast01-03-04, 11:54 AM | Cat, you have Laness listed as the one firing the arrow, I'm assuming since Ilene won initative and you described Laness being killed, that it was actually Ilene who pulled off the Zorandar, minus the crit. |
| Caterane01-03-04, 12:06 PM | Yeah, right. Thanks Motherbast. But there was no crit. Ilene even had her second rapid shot, which I didn`t roll. |
| MotherBast01-03-04, 12:14 PM | Hey MO, if you will send me Cur's tactics soon, I'll run that fight today. If you can't, it might be monday before I can run it. |
| Jindl01-03-04, 01:09 PM | Based on the above posts, here's am informal tally of community opinion on Iku's transformation: < Please let me know if I have you in the wrong category > Thinks that Iku retains his polymorph effect Jindl sshuit MotherBast cellardwellar fluiddragon barrel_master Thinks that Iku doesn't retain his polymorph effect Moherajikuyx Tharkos Mercy Thinks that it is cheezy Everyone ;) Currently the majority thinks that Iku retains his polymorph effect. I suggest 2 possible solutions: 1. Assume the above voting is a consensus and continue with the match between Iku and Dr. Dre, with Iku retaining his polymorphed shape. 2. Delay the match and post a poll on the votes thread to determine whether PAO overides the polymorph HD restriction and whether it expires upon death (since these seem to be the two major issues). Please do not run the fight without Iku in polymorphed form or retire the character, until this issue is resolved. -Jindl |
| barrel_master01-03-04, 01:15 PM | Props to Jindl's min/max... most of us are min/max'ers and as such any 'creative' use of the rules is welcomed by me. |
| Jindl01-03-04, 01:16 PM | Originally posted by MotherBast I have been wondering if Jindl was ever going to try the awaken trick. I never mentioned it before, because I didn't want to point it out if he wasen't aware of it. Yeah, I am aware of it. But, I view it differently than PAO. The awaken trick is a loophole in the game. It is something that no dm could allow. I wouldn't ever allow it. This PAO issue is something else entirely. It is an issue with interpreting one of the more poorly written spells. It has nothing to do with loopholes, or cyclical stacking effects. It is merely about interpreting what changes between polymorph and PAO. I would never use the awaken trick, but I have no problem using a spell for its intended use (such as using PAO for a transformation into something more powerful.) Originally posted by MotherBast Or, we could vote to make it someone's job to find the answers to tricky spells like this, and all agree to abide by the final intrepration given by that player, reguardless of wether or not we agree with the intrepration. It would be a lot of work for the player though. Jindl and Tellish are both pretty solid on the rules. I would vote for either of them, and there might be other Mod's here who played wizards every game of there lives, and know the spells back to front who might want to volenter for the position, if we decide to go that way. It would be easer than voting on every spell, but we would be at the mercy of the decisions of a single body. More efficent, but less control. This idea has merit, though I would suggest assigning two or three people to do it. I would be willing to try my best in such a position, and I think ToK would be great at it too. If other people like the idea, we'll see. -Jindl |
| Tharkos01-03-04, 01:32 PM | Originally posted by barrel_master Props to Jindl's min/max... most of us are min/max'ers and as such any 'creative' use of the rules is welcomed by me. Well this WILL result in quite a few people using the "Awaken trick" and I certainly wont stop from using it. It cant even be dispelled since the duration is instant. This will make the arena rather sucky too, for everyone else who isnt a sorceror, druid or bard. It might be useful to munchkins, but there should be some limits to the use of "cheezy tricks" and even Jindl says its cheezy. I consider Awaken as big a "loophole" as PAO btw. |
| Caterane01-03-04, 01:44 PM | Perhaps I should give my 2 euros too, especially since I modded the fight. To me, it doesn`t matter if PAO into a cornugon is a valid application of the rules or not. I fear more for the arena. If we allow this you can be sure that Ebelin will soon incarnate as an Astral deva and that will be just the beginning: EVERY spellcaster will achieve such a scroll at the first opportunity and poly himself into something far removed from the core races. We`ll have cornugons battle death slaads, the gladiators who don`t have access to this ressource will do the Rito or get retired. Even the ones who are able to polymorph might not do this with a happy smile on their face but because they HAVE TO do this in order to stay competitive. Jindl, I applaud you to this idea (or this Iku Rex guy, whoever invented this) but even you have to see the wisdom in NOT using the spell, not out of mercy or bad conscience but for the arena`s sake. Do not even think you`ll stay the only one! You can now post a list with supporters as long as the Thames or quote the SRD back and forth again but that will change nothing on the fact that it is out of question to ban this kind of application from the arena. Cat |
| Jindl01-03-04, 01:45 PM | Repeated changing type to animal so you can repeatedly cast and stack the benefits of awaken is definately not the intended use of the spell. Permanently changing form into something more powerful is definately an intended use of PAO. Regardless... Tactics sent for Iku Rex. Tactics recieved for Herrix Ignatius (sounds like a Roman name...) Tactics recieved for Aerial Windseeker. For the Iron vs Megaraptor fight, the consensus seems to favor not allowing advanced animals for animal handling. So, I'm gonna put the fight off until tomorrow, to give people more time to discuss this issue (and hopefully resolve it) before I run the match. Plus I want to see how Cat's monster fight goes (and determine if I want to use the same method of combat...) -Jindl Thanks for the compliments on my min/maxing !! |
| SnarkHunter01-03-04, 01:52 PM | I am reminded of a series in Savage Species called transformative rituals. Basicly they were a way of trading experiance for an ECL. One pseudo example was if a character got bit by a were creature, they could accept the transformation and gain the power gradually instead of their next 2 or three levels. What Jindle is doing with the spell is kind of trying to short circuit that particular balancing mechanism. I think clearly that compared to a good 3/4 of opponents at that level and in the next 3-4 levels Iku is obscenly powerful. But perhaps we could work out an ~ECL for what the transformation gave (No HD, or BAB but looking at stats nat armor and the like) and bumpthe char up to that level. Jindle might have to spend some credits but its a possibility. We could do this again if for instance-I wanted Hanz to get bit by a wererat (actually I was thinking about that :)), or if Bruno wanted to become a lich. Just a thought anyway. |
| Jindl01-03-04, 02:49 PM | @Cat - I agree that PAO may become a popular tactic, temporarily. But, be aware that it is not easy to set-up for it to be a permanent duration. A +9 on the chart is tough to accomplish without some serious long-term planning. It's also may be a bad move for wizards, since their Int will be locked in at the Int of the new monster. At higher levels PAO will become less useful, as babs increase (making it easier to hit the AC) and caster levels rise (making dispel magic and greater displling much more of a threat). Once people can acquire and use scrolls: shapechange, with any degree of success, PAO will be long forgotten. I would agree to banning the spell from the arena (indeed many DM's remove the spell from thier games), but adequate compensation must be made to my character, in addition to being created and advanced with this purpose, also spent nearly 60% of his wealth to acquire that scroll and that effect. @Snark - There are some major differences between a permanent spell effect and a transformation ritual. The ritual is not dispellable, and grants all extraordinary, supernatural and spell-like abilities of the new form. The spell effect of PAO only grants Str, Dex, Con, Int, natural armor, natural attacks, and extraordinary special attacks. That is not much. Plus, the spell effect is dispellable. Saying that PAO should incur an ECL adjustment is like saying that permanency+enlarge person should have an LA adjustment because it grants large size. They are very different things. I had wondered about the possibilities of transforming characters into liches, vampires, and lycanthropes. But, none of the savage progressions are in the Core rulebooks. So, as yet, I have just assumed that part of the post fight healing / revival was to cure any diseases or curses. I would not be opposed to adding progression rules for these templates, but that is another discussion. -Jindl |
| Jindl01-03-04, 02:54 PM | Originally posted by Caterane Spells memorized: 0: Guidance (6x) 1: Enlarge person, Shield of faith, Protection from evil, Divine favor (2x), Magic weapon 2: Bulls strength, Spiritual weapon (4x) 3: Magic vestment, Meld into stone (3x), Prayer 4: Inflict critical wounds, Divine power, Summon monster 4 (2x) 10: Summon Master :heehee :rofl: :bow: |
| Moherajikuyx01-03-04, 03:37 PM | There's no voting on the issue Iku, PAO works as Poly except where noted, so Iku reverted to original form, and NOWHERE it says that the target reverts to PAO form when resurrected. Duration is not discussed. No one took this in consideration! The spell is still going on, and it has two overlapping effects: a poly to cornugon, and a poly back to original form. Now the problem is another one, it's the HD thing. I will not set ready any character who PAoes in any way in something with more HDs than he has. Becuase: as no one here can find anything appropriate to show as a ruling - and a mere line of example is no rule, anywhere - I'm deciding for this way to act, which seems to me to be the less dangerous. Jindl, I'm waiting your tactics, I deleted the mail with the ones that talk about that cornugon nonsense as if actually still existing. PS - thanks Cat for the precious support. EDIT 2 - from the other posts, it looks like that everyone is missing the point about Iku. It's not a matter of duration. It's like if you could cast enlarge person and reduce person on the same individual, without the two spells dispelling each other. The two spells go both on, but the two effects (NOT the spells) cancel themselves. And fluid... Welcome back, even if you missed the point too :D |
| fluiddragon01-03-04, 04:10 PM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx There's no voting on the issue Iku, PAO works as Poly except where noted, so Iku reverted to original form, and NOWHERE it says that the target reverts to PAO form when resurrected. And fluid... Welcome back, even if you missed the point too :D The thing is that when Iku died the effect did not end and he did not revert back to assimar shape because the duration was permenent. He was a dead courgon or what ever. The duration was permenant which supercedes the revert when slain. Just like if you cast enlarge person then permenacy on yourself. Your dead not reverted. When Iku was resurected his body was still in the devil form and his spirt was simply returned to the PAO'ed body, as the magical effect of the PAO was still in force being, that the duraction of the spell is permenent. This permenent aspect of the spell is what supecedes the reverts when slain aspect of polymoph. This is also supported by the flesh to stone aspect of this spell. If you are turned to stone with this then ground into dust or hacked apart you do not revert to your normal shape, you remain dust or bits of stone untill reversed or dispelled. As far as the HD issue goes unless we house rule it the spell is actually very clear that HD is not an issue with PAO. The shrew and lizard example in the charts are proof enough of this. HD is not a factor. A manticor has many more hid dice than a shrew or lizard. Now do I think this spell is poorly worded? Yes indeed. Do I think it is unbalanced? A little bit, it is expensive, and dispellable. But not game breaking. Would I support a house rule to limit it's duration in some way? Most definitely. Would I support a house rule to limit the HD transformation? Again yes. Would I support a ban on this spell? Yes, it is not fun, and I think all in all it is too easily abused. With an outsider familliar (gotten through improved familliar feat) you can have a familliar much more physically powerfull and intellegent than the PC. So in conclusion the way the spell is written Jindl is correct, as in the case of permenent durations they do not end with death. (Non permenant durations of PAO would revert when slain I think). I don't like the tactic though and I think that it detracts from the arena, I woud support a ban or house rules on it. I would rather see a character to use alterself and polymoph to achive similar effects. -fd |
| Tharkos01-03-04, 04:23 PM | The spell doesnt end when Iku dies, but Polymorph clearly says that the subject reverts back to his original form. Nothing in PAO says that he retains his shape in death even though the spell might go on ! |
| Moherajikuyx01-03-04, 05:24 PM | ARGH! fluid, please READ my post before repeating that. I'm not talking about duration, I'm talking about 2 different overlapping spell effects in the same spell! Just like if you cast enlarge person and then reduce on yourself, and then die. You're enlarged, reduced and dead. This is not an opinion, it's just the mechanicistic quasi-algorithmical followup of the spell effects. Duration is not an issue! This has nothing to do with duration. I don't care if the spell is still on. That spell did revert him when he died. And enlarge doesn't say that you revert when you die! Uff. About the other thing, I don't think the example is enough proof. This is my opinion, instead than above, so I'll stop submitting it, I'll just listen about this. |
| fluiddragon01-03-04, 05:35 PM | Originally posted by Tharkos The spell doesnt end when Iku dies, but Polymorph clearly says that the subject reverts back to his original form. Nothing in PAO says that he retains his shape in death even though the spell might go on ! Polymorph is a different spell than PAO. Yes Polymorph reverts to the orginal form when slain. The duration of Polymorph is 1 min / level. PAO is a different spell that used some aspects of polymorph, just as polymorph uses some aspects of alterself. In most cases PAO would revert to the original form for the variable duraction changes. But in the case of a permenent change the body is changed permenantly. You are a dead assimar in the form of a horned devil. Your body is still under the influences of the spell, as it is permenant. Now if you want to say that all spell effects are dispelled upon resurection as a house rule thats fine. But permenant means permenant, and supercedes anything else. Its rather silly to say the spell effect is still going on but the shape reverts but the spell is still going. It is a permenant duration. Simple as that. PAO clearly states that some changes are permenant. You cannot argue the duration of PAO with Polymoph. They are 2 seperate spells. The more powerfull spell supercedes the lower level spell in several areas: 1. Hit Dice of begining and ending forms are not a concern of PAO 2. Durations are variable depending upon the form and how much of a change the new form is in regards to the old form. 3. Objects can be changed into living beings or other objects. 4. You gain the new intellegence score. These 4 areas clearly supercede the applicable details of the polymorph spell. Some limitations of the polymorph still apply though: The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin. If you are not an outsider you cannot turn into an outsider. You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine, nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form. Now the major limitations of PAO are to not get rich or get tons of magical items from the spell. This is what the designers were concerned about. Jindl even mentioned all the ways you could defeat the spell, it is powerfull and sucks for non casters to fight, but nearly all casters are more powerfull than melee types anyway. Another caster could take Iku on fairly well. I think the spell is pretty clear, it is not worded well and its intent does not match the wording. BUT the wording and examples are there in black and white. I think there should be house rules in some form on this. Heck my pre-buffs with touch spells were nerfed with a house rule. They were cheesy too but within the rules. No DM would allow a PAO in this example to work the way the SRD/PHB says. And any DM here I think would make it end with death. BUt in the arena we don't have a DM. My use of rope trick also prompted a house rule to nerf the effectiveness of it after I beat an opponent with my familliar while sitting safe and sound inside. If Mo doesn't like it and I think most of the others would support a ban/ or house rules to limit this. I think the consensus has been that Jindl's tactic works. BUT it needs some limits NOT imposed by the spell. Heck when the player who comes up with the idea even admits its cheesy he see's the problem. So just house rule it and be done with it. It's ok to use a house rule and I think everyone here would vote yes to house rule it. I certainly don't want to step outside my character type to have to use PAO to remain compeditive and Jindl can achive similar results with other spells. If we are going to nerf this which we should, then Jindl should get some compensation for it. |
| fluiddragon01-03-04, 05:44 PM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx ARGH! fluid, please READ my post before repeating that. I'm not talking about duration, I'm talking about 2 different overlapping spell effects in the same spell! Just like if you cast enlarge person and then reduce on yourself, and then die. You're enlarged, reduced and dead. This is not an opinion, it's just the mechanicistic quasi-algorithmical followup of the spell effects. Duration is not an issue! This has nothing to do with duration. I don't care if the spell is still on. That spell did revert him when he died. And enlarge doesn't say that you revert when you die! Uff. About the other thing, I don't think the example is enough proof. This is my opinion, instead than above, so I'll stop submitting it, I'll just listen about this. I did read it, I just dissagree with your conclusions thats all. PAO and Polymorph are 2 different spells. Where PAO is better it supercedes Poly. Plain and simple anything else is adding to the spell. I also support you in not setting characters who are PAO'ed active. I just think the path to the descission is different. Heck why don't we ask Jindl if he wants to ban/house rule PAO? I'm sure he is only interested in some compensation due to the expensive nature of the scrolls he bought. I think we can all agree to dissagree about the spell. I don't think anyone here will change anyone elses mind at this point, but I think we can all agree that something needs to be done about it. :D -fd |
| MotherBast01-03-04, 06:20 PM | I agree with Fluid. The majority of us understand what your saying about reverting on death MO, we all just disagree with your intrepration. To say simply that your right, and Iku isen't Pollyed anymore when your not even in the majority is against the spirit of the arena in my opinion. We are here to learn and discuss rules, not assume we know them. I disagreed with the concinus on Mounted Combat, but I never once said it simply had to be my way, just because I knew I was right. It is about discussion, and opinion. In that case, I submited to the majority, who disagreed with me. But, on the other hand, we all do agree that some action must be taken concerning this spell. It would seem no vote is needed to determin how the spell actually works, as it stands right now it is 2 to 1 in favor of Jindl's intrepration. So we should start from there. If the majority rules that way, that is how it is. The focus now should be dealing with the spell. The simplest solution would be to add an arena rule that "permanet" spell effects are not allowed, with the exception of spells allowed with Permanency spell. This simple rule would prevent a lot of abuses in the rules, not including the awaken loophole, however. This would be an ARENA rule, dealing with pre-buffs. Not an actual houserule of the game itself. PAO would still be a usefull spell for single battles, but the character would have to submit to dispelling after any fight he pollyed in, and any character who was pollyed by someone else would also be dispelled at the end of the fight. Just a suggestion. |
| Jindl01-03-04, 06:30 PM | I believe my interpretation of PAO is correct. But, I also think PAO is a poorly worded spell and in the interests of the arena, should be banned. I'll fully support such a ban on the PAO spell (and would support the same ban on Awaken...). But, my character was created with this intent. He fought through 2 matches prior to unveiling this tactic. He spent nearly all his resources just to acquire the spell (which incidently, may have caused him to lose the last match, as tactics / equipment would have been greatly different if he had not been trying to use PAO). So, if a ban is to be placed on PAO, then adequate compensation needs to be made to my character. I would suggest letting me replace Iku with a new character at Iku's level, since Iku himself was built to take advantage of the now banned PAO. In this case, the fight with Dr Dre is cancelled, and Dre gets a "doesn't fight" credit for next week. I would be fine with this solution, because regardless of right or wrong about PAO, it would be best for the Arena to simply ban the spell. -Jindl |
| Moherajikuyx01-03-04, 07:11 PM | MB, I kinda like the idea of not allowing permanent spell effects, but with permanency. fluid, I agree with you that PAO duration is permanent in Iku case. I don't agree with you just on the fact that it ignores the balancing "revert to normal on death" thing. I don't agree on this one only because the spell description doesn't say so. I concur that this is a silly thing, but it is nontheless true. |
| fluiddragon01-03-04, 07:29 PM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx MB, I kinda like the idea of not allowing permanent spell effects, but with permanency. fluid, I agree with you that PAO duration is permanent in Iku case. I don't agree with you just on the fact that it ignores the balancing "revert to normal on death" thing. I don't agree on this one only because the spell description doesn't say so. I concur that this is a silly thing, but it is nontheless true. But it doesn't say it does revert once slain. Polymorph does but not PAO. In any case but the permanent durations of PAO; I would agree with you, I just think the permenant duration superceedes the revert when slain, as the spell is 4 levels higher. Aren't you glad I'm back :angel: :D! -fd |
| Moherajikuyx01-03-04, 08:12 PM | No thanks to that really kind "Heck my pre-buffs with touch spells were nerfed with a house rule", I shall remember you that they were just treated following some rules that you didn't know at the moment and that you now forgot again, it seems. You may find those rules in this thread. Anyways, to get back to PAO, you go on missing the point. The duration is permanent, ok, perfect, who cares. Sadly you can't see - or don't want to - that a spell can have more than one effect. The PAO makes stuff change, which is the first effect, and change again on death, which is the second, unless you find a line in that spell which clearly tells the contrary. Don't use logics, it is against dnd rules. Let's see that line (and only that line, please). |
| fluiddragon01-03-04, 08:25 PM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx No thanks to that really kind "Heck my pre-buffs with touch spells were nerfed with a house rule", I shall remember you that they were just treated following some rules that you didn't know at the moment and that you now forgot again, it seems. You may find those rules in this thread. Anyways, to get back to PAO, you go on missing the point. The duration is permanent, ok, perfect, who cares. Sadly you can't see - or don't want to - that a spell can have more than one effect. The PAO makes stuff change, which is the first effect, and change again on death, which is the second, unless you find a line in that spell which clearly tells the contrary. Don't use logics, it is against dnd rules. Let's see that line (and only that line, please). If there was a rule against touch attacks not allowed in prebuffs before I did it I missed it. I even said it was cheesy. Not a big deal at all. Just using it as an illustration of a tactic that after being used was ruled against for whatever reason. I never had any hard feelings over that. Like I said it was cheesy and I'd never allow it in my game. As far as the PAO goes I don't think the 2 camps will agree on it. We are both firmly entrenched in our positions and obviously don't agree. Any more back and forth no matter how much fun :D isn't going to change anybodies mind. Heck Jindl even backs a ban on his strategy! So I think we should just move forward and decide how to go about PAO wether to ban it, or modify it, or arena rule it (as "house rule" is a swear word here LOL :D). We can all agree that it is bad and needs some sort of action. Bickering about why its bad isn't going to go anywhere. I see and understand what you are saying and you see what I am saying. We just happen to not agree about it and won't. So in the famous words of Jerry Springer "Can't we all just get along?" |
| Moherajikuyx01-04-04, 05:45 AM | Yes, but you can't find a line to back you, you interpretate the spell. I'm just following it to the words, instead. This can lead to silly things, I concur, but it's the way to do it. Everything else, is houserule. |
| Moherajikuyx01-04-04, 05:45 AM | 2x |
| Tharkos01-04-04, 07:15 AM | Originally posted by fluiddragon Polymorph is a different spell than PAO. Yes Polymorph reverts to the orginal form when slain. The duration of Polymorph is 1 min / level. PAO is a different spell that used some aspects of polymorph, just as polymorph uses some aspects of alterself. On the contrary ... PAO uses ALL aspects of polymorph which arent negated in the PAO description. You yourself quoted that fist sentence from PAO as well, which clearly states that PAO is like polymorph except for the fact that it can also polymorph objects. Thus it is pretty easy to see why someone who dies reverts back to his natural form ... PAO does NOT negate the "revert back on death", because duration of a spell is NOT equal to the effect. Btw. which effects of polymorph does PAO use ? and who decides which if it doesnt use all ? In the end the big question is: Do we want cheeze or not in the arena ? If the answer is yes I want to know because thats the time to quit because broken stuff sucks. |
| fluiddragon01-04-04, 07:38 AM | Originally posted by Tharkos On the contrary ... PAO uses ALL aspects of polymorph which arent negated in the PAO description. You yourself quoted that fist sentence from PAO as well, which clearly states that PAO is like polymorph except for the fact that it can also polymorph objects. Thus it is pretty easy to see why someone who dies reverts back to his natural form ... PAO does NOT negate the "revert back on death", because duration of a spell is NOT equal to the effect. Btw. which effects of polymorph does PAO use ? and who decides which if it doesnt use all ? In the end the big question is: Do we want cheeze or not in the arena ? If the answer is yes I want to know because thats the time to quit because broken stuff sucks. Dude, let it go. 2-1 the people on the board don't agree with you. Like I said you are not going to change my mind and I'm not going to change yours. We just take the permanet duration to mean 2 different things. The spell wording sucks we all agree on that. The spell needs some sort of ruling or ban we all agree with that. I and the others who don't share your opinion completely understand your points. We just don't agree with them, just like you don't agree with ours. Jindl already compiled the list of who thinks what, so if it came down to a vote you'd loose. Not a big deal we are arguing over symantics. Heck wizards couldn't even do any research on how fast a certain bird flies or how much a sword actualy weighs. They are not perfect and screw things up. PAO is just another example of how they screwed up. But less people play in games with 8th level spells flying around than in lower level games so there was less abuse of PAO, and they probably are not aware of the potential abuse of this spell. They were concerned it would be used for get rick quick schemes and making magic items, and was balanced against this. Not outsiders PAO into super outsiders. They droped the ball. In a game it is going to be very unlikely a 3rd level character permenantly changes his form to be a demon. It's just one of thoose wierd things the arena puts an emphisis on. Now is simply the time to decide what to do about it. Mo already stated that he will not set to ready anyone who is PAO'ed. Jindl said he'd support a ban on the spell. Just decide what you want done about it and how to handle it in the future and go with it. The board is unanimus (sp?) in wanting something done to nerf it. -fd |
| MotherBast01-04-04, 07:42 AM | Actually, I belive that the reason a pollymorphed character reverts when killed isen't because it is an effect of the spell, but because death ends the effect of the spell. pollymorph is dismissable at will, meaning the spell only lasts as long as the person pollymorphed wants it to. If the person dies, then the pollymorph spell imedatly ends, and the person reverts. Kind of like shapeshifters, who can stay in an alternate form indeffanatly. When they die, they revert to there original form, however. The shapeshifting effect ends on death. Pollymorph follows this line of logic. As far as finding a single sentence to overide the reverts on death part of Polly in PAO, the two sentences about breaking apart and seperating someone pollymorphed into an object seem to pretty strongly suggest that the person would remain dust. It dosen't say exactly "does not revert on death," but if someone pollymorped into dust can be scatered to the far corners of the world, which the spell suggests would kill them, and not revert, thats a pretty strong argument the spell overrides that part of pollymorph. I'm sure that wont effect anyone in the "other camp's" opinion, but I just wanted to let you know where I was comming from. I agree that it is probably pointless at this point to even argue the spell. The thing we should argue at this point is what to do about it, and other spells like it. |
| Tharkos01-04-04, 08:58 AM | ... |
| Tharkos01-04-04, 09:06 AM | Originally posted by fluiddragon Dude, let it go. 2-1 the people on the board don't agree with you. Like I said you are not going to change my mind and I'm not going to change yours. We just take the permanet duration to mean 2 different things. The spell wording sucks we all agree on that. The spell needs some sort of ruling or ban we all agree with that. Sad thing you dont even want to try and persuade me ... by answering my questions about the loopholes in your argumentation. Polymorph itself for example says that the subject reverts back to the natural form upon death, but it DOESNT say anything about ending the spell so it isnt exactly contradicted by PAO. You still argue that the permanent duration of PAO means it doesnt revert back. Thats one of the loopholes I mean ... There are two different points of view among the members: 1. "If it isnt explicitly forbidden by the rules and badly worded it is allowed." 2. "If it isnt explicitly allowed by the rules and badly worded it is forbidden." Number 1 is the group of people who answer YES to allowing PAO to have the "IKU-effect" (despite the existance of several questions in the spell) and number 2 is the group of people who say NO to it (because of the questionable wording). The question is how we treat questionable spells in the future. Do we automatically say yes or no to allowing them ? I would say saying NO is the wiser choice ... but banning spells just because they can be misused due to unclear wording is a bad choice IMO, because there are some legitimate uses for spells. Example: PAO What would happen if we say the examples (shrew to manticore) in the PAO table are WRONG and take the "HD limit" from polymorph ? Then the spell would still be useable, but you couldnt change into UBER creatures with tons of stats (because those usually have high HD). Problem solved IMO. |
| cellardweller01-04-04, 09:33 AM | <rolls diplomacy check>"4"+6=10 Originally posted by Tharkos Sad thing you dont even want to try and persuade me ... You focused on the wrong part of Fluid's post what you should be replying to is Originally posted by fluiddragon Now is simply the time to decide what to do about it. Mo already stated that he will not set to ready anyone who is PAO'ed. Jindl said he'd support a ban on the spell. Just decide what you want done about it and how to handle it in the future and go with it. The board is unanimus (sp?) in wanting something done to nerf it. Jindl has acknowledged that he wouldn't mind POA being "area ruled," so Iku goes back to asimlar form - I hope that all parties are satisfied with at least this much. That just leaves two matters to address 1) The details of the POA arena-nerf need to be fleshed out. The simplest in my IMO is just to put the HD limitation in for all non-objects (including creatures with int <3). 2) Iku an significant proportion of his resources on a scroll that he expected to work as written. In the core arena we have already had precedent for feats being changed because of differing interpretations of the rules (Craft wonderous item caster level requirements) and in this thread's previous incarnation (LGRtR), a the costs of a contigent spell item were refunded when the item was nerfed mid-fight. I assert that these two precedents would dictate that Iku has the cost of the scroll refunded. <hopes that DC wasn't too high> |
| MotherBast01-04-04, 09:43 AM | While assuming the examples in PAO are wrong would be a simple solution, it falls under that dreadfull heading of "house rule", which as Fluid pointed out, is a dirty word around here. Unless offical Errata is realsed, I'm afraid we must assume everything in the PAO spell description is correct as writen. It would be just as easy to assmue the line about reverting on death in Pollymorph is wrong. Once you open that can of worms, you can't close it again. No, we must find a solution to PAO as it is written, without changing the actual spell in any why. This is why a rule forbiding "Permanet" spell effects should be added to the arena Pre-buff rules. It is a very simple solution, that dosen't actually change anything about any of the spells as writen in the book, and alows PAO and simaler spells to still be usefull weapons in single battles. It also circumvents us having to enforce an outright ban of the spell, which we should try to avoid if possible. I think MO liked this idea, but no one else has comminted on it. What do others think about it? |
| cellardweller01-04-04, 10:13 AM | I'd hate to see Permancy'd See Invisibility or Enlarge person go out with POA though, I can see how purchasing these might be useful (and perfectly valid) strategies for fighters at higher levels. |
| Moherajikuyx01-04-04, 10:29 AM | Originally posted by MotherBast Actually, I belive that the reason a pollymorphed character reverts when killed isen't because it is an effect of the spell, but because death ends the effect of the spell. pollymorph is dismissable at will, meaning the spell only lasts as long as the person pollymorphed wants it to. If the person dies, then the pollymorph spell imedatly ends, and the person reverts. Kind of like shapeshifters, who can stay in an alternate form indeffanatly. When they die, they revert to there original form, however. The shapeshifting effect ends on death. Pollymorph follows this line of logic. (enphasis mine) This is the very core of your argumentation. Sadly it is not suppported by anything. Your reasoning about polymoprh, as you say, follows a line of logic, which is the wrong thing to do with dnd. This is the road that leads to pretending that freedom of movement makes one drown in water, because he isn't anymore subject to the Archimedean principle. And so on. As you can't find a quote that supports your opinion, your belief begins trembling... And falling... Not from logics, note: only from the point of view of those rules that form the dnd world. We're still debating about this for a reason. Jindl asked for a recompensation, but since Iku lost the poly effect for the above reason, even before PAO gets ruled upon, and not for this ruling (that I believe is core rules, not a house rule, because even the example doesn't clearly state that "the HD limit is suppressed"; but this is unimportant with regards to Iku) he asked to be recompensated for something that he hasn't. |
| Tharkos01-04-04, 10:33 AM | Originally posted by cellardweller 1) The details of the POA arena-nerf need to be fleshed out. The simplest in my IMO is just to put the HD limitation in for all non-objects (including creatures with int <3). As I suggested in my example ... if the HD limit from Polymorph applies to PAO as well then even the "permanent" duration of the spell wouldnt hurt so much. Originally posted by cellardweller 2) Iku an significant proportion of his resources on a scroll that he expected to work as written. It doesnt matter the scroll cost more than half of his total amount of gold. |
| MotherBast01-04-04, 10:51 AM | The Cur vs. Hanz fight is finished. I expected a long one here, but it only lasted 4 rounds. I don't want to spoil anything, but one gladiator's tactics, although confusing and impossible at first, became a ticket to a sure win after a revision. I wont be able to post the fight untill tonight though, as my D&D game begins in an hour, and I have a story in mind that would take much longer to type up. The players know who won and lost by what I have already said though. And about PAO, my argument isen't that logic supports my case, but that the rules do. The examples in the PAO spell are in my opinion, rules to govern the spell. In your opinion they are not. This is the core of our argument, and neither of us have moved an inch since the beginning, and likely will not. It dosen't matter though, because its not for me and you to decide, this is a democratic thread, and the majority agrees with Jindl, so the issue is already decided. The majority vote is to run PAO as Jindl belives it should work. End of that decussion. No reason to argure it any farther. The issue now is wha to do about it. Celler, In my original proposition, I suggested that spells made permanet with Permanancy spell would be the exception to the "no permanet effects" rule, so Permied Enlarges and see invis would still be allowed. I really would like to see this discussion shift more twords how do deal with not just PAO, but other spells like it, and not how the spell actually works. That discussion should have ended already, by majority rule. To continue it, is just slowing down the process of actually finding a solution. As far as reimbersing Jindl, since we would be ruling after the casting of the spell, which by majority we have ruled works as Jindl proposed, I think some reimbersment is in order, because we will be in fact forcing him to revert to his normal form, a rule that did not exist prior to this. He never would have done it if the rule had existed before, so I can see where compensation would be in order. The cost of the scroll is enough in my opinion. |
| fluiddragon01-04-04, 10:55 AM | Originally posted by Tharkos Sad thing you dont even want to try and persuade me ... by answering my questions about the loopholes in your argumentation. I don't want to persuade you. I understand perfectly your points and in another setting I would even agree with you as I would simply house rule this. In the spirit of the game and in nearly any game where there is a DM I think you would be right. In this setting with the lack of house rules and a DM, going strickly by the spell wording I disagree. I know you don't share my view and won't so why argue till we are blue in the face. I don't want to turn into a smurf. http://www.80schildren.com/images/cartoons/smurfs/grouchy.gif Example: PAO What would happen if we say the examples (shrew to manticore) in the PAO table are WRONG and take the "HD limit" from polymorph ? Then the spell would still be useable, but you couldnt change into UBER creatures with tons of stats (because those usually have high HD). Problem solved IMO. This would be fine in a campaign, but to say the text of the spell is totaly wrong and ignore it is a house rule. You can't ignore what is said in the spell descrition and the table is in the description. (As much as we would all like to sometimes). As written the spell allows this. (We all agree the spell needs to be rewritten!). But in the core arena we have to go by the core rules. Sure there are things in the core rules we all hate or think are stupid and in our games we house rule them, but that doesn't fly here. We just try to fix problems as they come up. After I won a fight by sitting in a rope trick we nerfed the spell, and any similar spells and effects due to a problem that was created. I came up with the tactic and like Jindl supported the nerfing of a tactic and spell that I abused. (And yes it was an abuse :D) Moving forward... I think Jindl should be refunded the cost of the scroll. some ideas: I think the easiest solution for this problem with PAO is to declare that reverting to your normal shape if slain is the way it works despite what the spell description states. I think we can all agree this is the spirit of the spell even if it is not the actual description. And in cases where it is duplicating another spell (flesh to stone for instance the other spell description is used to determine the effects). or Have the area managers dispell any permenant PAO effect after the end of the match. Dispelling other permenant effects can be added to the list as problems arise. But not all permanent spells need this treatment. So lets not nerf spells that are not problems. I think it is going too far to limit the hit dice, as the spell specifically removes this limitation in its examples. The spell is an 8th level spell and is significantly more powerfull than polymoph. The 2 areas this spell is causing problems in is the permenant duration, and the ambiguous nature of its description if you are slain while PAO'ed. The hit dice limitation or lack there of is not what people are complaining about. With the right form you permenantly get high physical stats, natural attacks, AC and flight. Something that would take many rounds of buffing and nearly impossible to prebuff with. Nobody wants to fight such a character, and nobody wants to have to adopt the same tactics just to remain compeditive against such a character. I certainly don't want to change my sorcerer to a shape shifter, just to be compeditive. So lets fix these 2 problems. I think that the arena masters should just dispell any ongoing PAO effect after a match. We can add to this list of dispelled spells as situations arise. It is a simple quick and easy solution. This covers the 2 problem areas of the spell and avoids house rules. It is similar to having to shake the hands of the ref while going in to discharge any touch attack spells on going. And is not a house rule. This solution doesn't have to fix the bad wording of the spell, as it disregards it entirely, it becomes a moot point. This solution also doesn't nerf anything else that would be a viable tactic. Any support for this? -fd |
| barrel_master01-04-04, 12:08 PM | I'm very much in favor of giving back Jindle the cost of the scroll. As for other measures... I don't know. I suppose that would be up to the boards. |
| Tharkos01-04-04, 12:25 PM | Originally posted by fluiddragon In this setting with the lack of house rules and a DM, going strickly by the spell wording I disagree. I know you don't share my view and won't so why argue till we are blue in the face. I don't want to turn into a smurf. /rant on No ... you dont want to argue because you are WRONG and repeating you have the "majority of votes" wont change anything. You havent written anything to neutralize the stuff I mentioned ... because you cant. You say you are going striclty by the wording, but you arent. I am a bit :censored::censored::censored::censored: :censored::censored: off by your "condescending" tone of writing. You sound like you are the King who decides the discussion is over. I dont like that much. I KNOW I am arrogant myself, but do you know that fact about yourself ? Since you dont like to limit PAO by HD fine ... then everyone will Polymorph into whatever 20 HD monsters are out there once the "treasuries" allow the higher cost for 20 caster levels instead of 15. VERY smart idea. IMO the HD limit from polymorph should still apply because it keeps the spell in check and wont allow cheezy stuff like PAOing a rather low HD familiar or whatever into a high-attribute monster. If you dont want the HD limit then you should go to the fridge and get some more cheeze because 3000 gold is just a little cheap when it comes to a pretty safe form ... just look at the CON bonus for Iku, thats a HUGE bonus for any d4 character. /rant off I am sorry about the tone of this post, but I dont like being called "Dude" and being told I am wrong without being proven wrong. |
| Moherajikuyx01-04-04, 12:45 PM | Usually one can understand who's wrong by seeing how much one writes. The more one's opinions are complicated, the more he has to write to try and prove them. I'm really not going blue (in Italian they're the Puffi :rofl: ) - I'm having quite some fun trying to follow curious logics. I finally understood how's like being a venusian. fluid and MB, we also almost found the solution to the problem, it seems. I just want to see a quote that tells that poly reverts when one dies because it's the end of the spell. On the spell, it's not written that it's a cause, but a time coincidence. If you show that to me, you'll be right and I'll be wrong, because if that's a cause effect, then, as PAO works the same way, it wouldn't revert on death, and Iku will be refounded. That's as simple as that. *Edit*: PAO HD limit is another thing, I guess we should vote on that, now that the matter is clear. |
| Jindl01-04-04, 01:18 PM | I think we have had quite enough discussion of the rules. It seems clear that a 2-1 majority favors the interpretation of PAO that is used. Sadly, many people whose opinions I respect are absent from this discussion. I would love to hear from Snarkhunter, Magagumo, and Tellish about what their opinions are. But, since further discussion seems to be going nowhere, I suggest we turn our emphasis away from the correct way to interpret the spell, towards an objective of "how will PAO be used in the arena?" To that end, I have 4 possible solutions: 1. Ban the spell completely. 2. Ban the permanent version of the spell. 3. As part of the ressurrection process, dispel all permanent effects. 4. After the fight, dispel all permanent effects on both the winner and the loser. I am in favor of #1, as the aspect of PAO I used is not the only super-abusable function. #2 still allows the use of the spell in a fight, but this could be problematic, when people start using it to change rocks into Cornugons (since a duration of several minutes is all that is required). So, I like this option less than option #1 #3 would also effect permanancy effects, but only for the loser of the fight. I am against this, because if you lose the fight, you already used resources and lost money, now it isn't fair to lose more money on all the permanent buffs you just lost. #4 is a decent option, though it means noone will use the permanency spell ever again. Still, its fair as it affects all combatants the same. So, I would be okay with this option, though I still like #1 better. All of these solutions indicate that Iku will not retain his poly effect after the last fight. Since many (including myself) believe that per the Core rules he would retain it, I would request compensation for his loss. Some have suggested reimbursing him for the scroll. This is a decent option for compensation, but Iku was built from the ground up to use PAO. It is no coincidence that his Int was 14, exactly what he needed to become a Cornugon. Its no coincidence that he took Combat Expertise and Improved Trip, so that he could use the spiked chain later, just like a real Horned Devil. Given that the character was made with Cornugon in mind, I would much prefer being able to simple substitute in a new character at the same ECL. IMO this is the most fair way to handle the situation, since Iku was pretty much a one trick pony, and his one trick was just banned. So, allow me to insert a new ECL 4 character in his place, and then ban the PAO spell from the arena. -Jindl |
| SnarkHunter01-04-04, 02:50 PM | My opin on PAO is and will ever be that it makes baby Jesus cry. More specificly I believe we would all be substantially happier if we all stopped discussing its application right now by the simple expediant of removing it from the arena. There are plenty of other 8th level spells that are at least as much fun, I don't think we will be terribly disapointed with the loss of one. Jindle to your request for a complete replacement of Iku...I don't think we have a precedence for such a thing. Yours is not the first (and not the even the fifth!) somewhat high level character to be retired after rules mongering made him unfit for active service (Ah the original Panza, I remember him well...). Part of the point of this arena is after all testing viability at low levels. Should you want to cash in some credits to skip a level that would of course be fine. Speaking of credits by the way, I must again protest Mo, your method of assigning them. When Mods mod the upper level (or above) of the fights required of them they are awarded one or more credits. Credits which in turn can be cashed in to mod fewer fights in the future. When the only purpose of these credits is to ascertine division of labor between mods deleting a column of them here or there is perfectly acceptable since only the relative differences in level are important. But! There is an alternative use for credits now. IF you continue this wanton discarding of credits achieved the possibility of any sort of high LA critter gracing are arena floor vanishes (Cat I recall you wished a minotaur and I've toyed with playing a lycanthrope). Therefor sir I must protest and abjur you to award credits at every oppurtunity and restore deleted columns. Yes there may be a long line of ++++++'s next to some mods names but surely you won't allow asthetic considerations to overwhelm fair and accurate reporting of what we have achieved? Indeed *puffs a pipe*. |
| barrel_master01-04-04, 04:43 PM | To that end, I have 4 possible solutions: 1. Ban the spell completely. 2. Ban the permanent version of the spell. 3. As part of the ressurrection process, dispel all permanent effects. 4. After the fight, dispel all permanent effects on both the winner and the loser. I'm more in line with 2. True, it may be overpowered but the scrolls are quite expensive and at level 8, the spell should be very good. If it turns out to be a breaker then we can always nerf it later. |
| barrel_master01-04-04, 04:44 PM | Also, about what snarkhunter just said above, are we getting credits for moding this week? |
| SnarkHunter01-04-04, 04:56 PM | Fights up! I think it went pretty well altogether, I hope everyone enjoys it. A link for your convienence. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2240808#post2240808) |
| fluiddragon01-04-04, 05:07 PM | Originally posted by Tharkos /rant on No ... you dont want to argue because you are WRONG and repeating you have the "majority of votes" wont change anything. You havent written anything to neutralize the stuff I mentioned ... because you cant. You say you are going striclty by the wording, but you arent. I am a bit :censored::censored::censored::censored: :censored::censored: off by your "condescending" tone of writing. You sound like you are the King who decides the discussion is over. I dont like that much. I KNOW I am arrogant myself, but do you know that fact about yourself ? Since you dont like to limit PAO by HD fine ... then everyone will Polymorph into whatever 20 HD monsters are out there once the "treasuries" allow the higher cost for 20 caster levels instead of 15. VERY smart idea. IMO the HD limit from polymorph should still apply because it keeps the spell in check and wont allow cheezy stuff like PAOing a rather low HD familiar or whatever into a high-attribute monster. If you dont want the HD limit then you should go to the fridge and get some more cheeze because 3000 gold is just a little cheap when it comes to a pretty safe form ... just look at the CON bonus for Iku, thats a HUGE bonus for any d4 character. /rant off I am sorry about the tone of this post, but I dont like being called "Dude" and being told I am wrong without being proven wrong. I, and a number of others have explained in depth on previous posts why we disagree with you. Go back and re-read those posts. We are not wrong, we simply disagree with your conclusions, its that simple. The majority disagree with you. Its not a big deal we all agree something must be done about the spell. In regards to the HD limit this is a function of polymoph but not PAO. The chart of examples clearly does not consider the hit dice of either form as being important (it probably should). But as written the spell doesn't care. The spell is more concerned with turning lead into gold than anything else. The Hit Die issue is not even in contention but you like to bring it up; the main sticking point is what happens when you die and are PAO. One side thinks perm durations stay changed, and one side says they revert. Both arguments are valid. But different people see different aspects of the spell in slightly different ways that makes up their mind. You, Mo, Mercy say 1 thing and the others say something else. Big deal, it doesn't really matter. In my game I would re-write the spell. I would specificaly mention that you revert once slain. I would use role playing to limit other types of abuses. You are not going to get very good service in many inns if you look like a demon. And dude, if being called dude ticks you off I would avoid many southern coastal cities in the US. Look to the grins and smiles and stupid pictures in peoples posts. :D :D :D :D I and others are simple interpreting a very badly worded spell. In a campaign most of us would agree with you but not in a stricktly core setting. The point is moot. We all want something done about it, thats what matters. In regards to Jindl's compensation I think a reimburstment is in order but I would personally be against a new character starting at that higher level. I would prefer mod credits be used for that. Insert all the issues with cash about starting at a higher level. It was a great character and would make a very nice villian in any game. I personaly don't think that all perm durations need to be dispelled. The problem is with PAO so lets nerf this and say this is dispelled due to concerns with the famillies present. Having demons walk around is bad for the other businesses. Lets nerf other spells as they become a problem. -fd |
| Caterane01-04-04, 06:40 PM | Yours is not the first (and not the even the fifth!) somewhat high level character to be retired after rules mongering made him unfit for active service (Ah the original Panza, I remember him well...). Hm, I`ll go and ask the bonesnatchers if there`s still a place next to stuffed Bonanza :D Or the "friendly" greeting of the Lich Queen when Iku returns to her from a failed mission :eek: ...but that`s another story |
| Tharkos01-04-04, 06:56 PM | Originally posted by Jindl To that end, I have 4 possible solutions: 1. Ban the spell completely. 2. Ban the permanent version of the spell. 3. As part of the ressurrection process, dispel all permanent effects. 4. After the fight, dispel all permanent effects on both the winner and the loser. I have two more choices: 5. Add the HD-requirement from Polymorph to the spell but keep the other stuff from PAO (no reverting back to normal form upon death). 6. Add the HD-requirement from Polymorph to the spell but keep the other stuff from PAO (including reverting back to normal form upon death). 1. That would be too bad. 2. How long a duration could there be then ? 1 Week so it could be used to pre-buff ? 3. That would be unfair for all those with other permanent effects IMO. 4. see 3. As it is I would favor number 6, because that is the closest version I can think of that would still make the spell viable in lower levels and keep it close to the original. It also "ensures" that the effect wont be active that long because everyone will loose eventually and "low HD forms" usually dont have too many stat benefits. |
| barrel_master01-04-04, 07:02 PM | Props to fluid by the way. |
| MotherBast01-04-04, 09:05 PM | Hanz vs. Curungur posted. The fight is in story form, with the round by round breakdown at the end for all you sticklers. Not much to this one though. Hope you guys enjoy the story. As far as the so far suggested ways of dealing with PAO, they all have there good an bad points. I would suggest not incorprating any that involve actually changing the way the spell works though, as we have said before we want to avoid house rules. An outright ban of the spell seems to drastic. I would support that only a list of spells, begining with but not exclusive to PAO, be dispelled after every encounter. The effects could be volentaraly removed, and any effects the dispell removes that are alowed would be recast by the arena at no charge to the gladiator. As pointed out before, this would not prevent the PAO from being used to turn a rock or a familure into a dangerous foe for a single battle, but at 3k a pop, it is a costly tactic. If someone is willing to spend that kind of cash on an all or noting tactic, which Jindl has shown several methods of dealing with, I say let them. |
| Jindl01-04-04, 11:51 PM | Aerial Windseeker vs Herrix Ignatius is posted. I'll be working on Iron the Panza vs the Megaraptor tomorrow. I am currently planning on using a normal non-advanced megaraptor as the majority opinion seems to be no advanced animals for animal handlers. I'll be posting the Iron fight as a normal match on the fights thread, as I do not like how the Harvester round by round is working out (is that thread dead? You guys haven't posted on it since Saturday?) -Jindl FYI: Banning the permanent version of PAO would effectively be the same as dispelling it after the fight, and you could pre-buff with it. A duration of weeks still only lasts one fight after all. |
| Moherajikuyx01-05-04, 05:02 AM | Bonanza was retired for an error with alignment... There's no compensation for Iku if you guys don't show that Poly reverts on death because the spell ends, instead of and at the same point the spell ends as it is quite obvious reading it. I don't want houserules. Anyways, I didn't ask for any compensation when I retired Bonanza because I don't think it is correct for this kind of arena, where we test builds. It's not a political thing, I'm surprised from the presence of lawyers. I wouldn't set this precedent, as I already showed not doing it. It's disgusting. We're having fun, not in a tribunal. Finally, about PAO, it seems that there are two ways at the end: 1. we dispel effects (but permanencied ones) after the figths 2. we set the HD limit, which even though the examples don't clearly negate, they don't even clearly accept. The others look to be unwanted. Is this all? I'll add the poll when you guys reply. *edit* Jindl, you can fight with the advanced raptor, if we then decide against that it will simply downgrade. BM, great introduction, I'm glad the Snark is back in its safe! :D Could the arena bard charge be in danger..? Snark, you're right! I'll stop deleting the column. But it would be wrong to give a credit to everyone, it would lose sense... We have to remember that not everyone is a moderator. If every active moderator gets a credit, it means that I should lessen the number of credits given. Of course this week was a strange one, so no worry. I think I'll delay next pairings a day still, to give the chance to see the pcs to those who come back from holidays. |
| Tharkos01-05-04, 05:58 AM | Simply changing the duration for PAO (by auto-dispelling it sometime) wont change the brokenness of the spell which allows people to get the UBER STATS from 15 HD creatures at level 3. So its either banning the spell completely or changing the effect (rather than the duration) which would make any sense. Btw, ... since the majority is of the opinion that the HD limit from Polymorph does NOT apply I cant wait to see those CL 20 PAO scroll to change people into a Balor ... |
| Moherajikuyx01-05-04, 09:42 AM | Something came back in my turbinating mind... Originally posted by Jindl Thanks to Tharkos for the reply below. The subjects HD is too low, and thus Mo is correct about the Cornugon form being unattainable at this level. Please note the rest of my arguments, should this issue come up later (like when a character does have enough HD for this trick). Lets see: +5 for same kingdom -> check. +2 for same type (outsider) -> check. +2 for same or lower intelligence -> check. Yep, that's +9. [...] (enphasis mine) Check what? This is a lie. A simple, plain lie. The "same type" bonus to duration doesn't exist. It's a "same class" bonus. And class isn't the same as type. Aasimars can normally mate with humans; they're of class mammals. Now tell me that Cornugons lactate their babies... :rofl: If common sense isn't enough, I think there's an official source around that states they're divinely created. I knew the permanent duration wasn't that easy to get. Now I have to get back to this stupid database... [-( |
| fluiddragon01-05-04, 10:10 AM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Now tell me that Cornugons lactate their babies... :rofl: :bow: :rofl: :bounce: LMAO |
| Caterane01-05-04, 10:22 AM | ...and after a long fight the sun sets, ending the battle |
| Tellish_of_Ket01-05-04, 11:07 AM | Mezza back! Holidays were awesome, seems like i had less headaches to worry about than most on these boards. Too bad my tactics didn't get forwarded, oh well, such is life. I don't know what i can add to POA that hasn't already been said, but i'll try to post my simple thoughts on the matter before the next pairings, but it seems like most want to drop the discussion anyhow, so it will be very brief. If ya'll wish to continue the discussion there is a killer rules-lawyering site that i frequently attend. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Infinite_Monkeys/ I used to post there quite often by there are many very qualified rules-knowledgable individuals there who do a tremendous amount of research. Since these are core discussions it fits the group. The group is a Living Greyhawk group, so asking about BoED etc... won't garner much input. But anything core or LG related is fair game. Tellish |
| Caterane01-05-04, 04:48 PM | Hey guys, I heard something about using diplomacy to gain a companion. What are the rules on that? And while we are at it: what are the rules for handle animal and gaining one? THX |
| Magagumo01-05-04, 05:50 PM | Being an intelligent person, I'm going to ignore the raging debate on PaO and let you guys settle that out. Im glad to be back in the NE US again (FLorida is nice, but gets old quick), and am happy to say that I can start modding fights next week (yea start of second semester at college!). However, Snark has informed me that we need to fight with the objects of our desire (in other words, Bruno needs to take down the living Turkish or Tony before he can use em). Since lvl 9 is still locked, and Snark has volunteered, I will have Bruno face off with the cloud giant this week. Snark will have my tactics tonight (I assume we are running ti as the standard arena) and we'll see if I can put the giant into the grave (to be retrieved shortly thereafter ;)). So yea, one more wee, and things get crazy with Bruno at 9th, and Zorander at 7th! (Great story Cat, thank you.) |
| Arstimis01-05-04, 05:53 PM | I dont really agree with how my character was handled. I accept i was frightened...failing the will save by 1, grrrrr.....but i dont agree with how he acted afterwards. A frightened character will use any means he can to get away, including spells. First seeing that there was no where to run, and not being able to run fast enough Kiowen should have stayed and fought. If you dont agree with that, then shouldnt he have used his resources to try and get away....color spray, invisibility, tanglefoot bag....things that would allow him to get more room between him and the source of fear. Edit: If i was fearful, why would i not just try to aviod overrun rather than try to block my opponent....and why did i not get my AoO.....im thinking i would have dropped what i was holding, its easier to flee with your hands empty |
| MotherBast01-05-04, 06:57 PM | I wasen't involved in that fighty in any way, but I will say that you couldn't avoid the overrun because he had trample. As far as how the fear was handled, the book says the frightened character would try to escape to the best of his abilities. It says you "may fight if unable to flee." Since you were never in a position where you could not flee you never would have tried to fight back. As far as the means by which you tried to flee, I would agree that perhapse you fleed by the simplest means available, and possibly not the best. That, however, was up to the mod to decide, since you had nothing in your tactics about what to do if you were frightned. I wouldn't think he used the "best of his abilities" to escape, but I didn't mod the fight. |
| Arstimis01-05-04, 07:07 PM | ahh...didnt notice trample, but...arent the mods supposed to have your character fight to the best of its ability? oh well...there is always next week |
| SnarkHunter01-05-04, 07:32 PM | Within reason Aristimis. And always with the primary concern of not favoring one player over another. To that end...its easiest to assume the worst when the tide is against one particular contestent. In anycase its never helpful to remain focused on the past-look to the future and hope for the best. Woo! Monster fight! Woo! |
| cellardweller01-05-04, 07:55 PM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx I think I'll delay next pairings a day still, to give the chance to see the pcs to those who come back from holidays. So you won't mind if I'm a little late with my fight this week :( . I had planned to do it last night, but there was a crisis at work which mean't I didn't get out of the office till after midnight. I'll do my best to have it finished tonight. |
| Sir Cridion01-05-04, 07:56 PM | @Mo: I'm fairly busy this week, so only Faldion'll be active. I'd appreciate if you didn't assign any fights to me this week. Thanks |
| Jindl01-05-04, 10:17 PM | Well, the Iron vs the Megaraptor fight is posted. All rolls can be found at Mo's online roller, search under the name: IronRaptor_test. It was a long and bloody fight, I won't tell you who won, but someone (Tellish, Snarkhunter, Caterane, Magagumo, LLMadCow) please review it for errors. I think I did everything right, but just in case... -Jindl |
| SnarkHunter01-05-04, 11:08 PM | Mmm tis the season for monster fights, you can find mine for Bruno up as well. |
| LLMadCow01-05-04, 11:45 PM | Quote by Jindl Well, the Iron vs the Megaraptor fight is posted. All rolls can be found at Mo's online roller, search under the name: IronRaptor_test. It was a long and bloody fight, I won't tell you who won, but someone (Tellish, Snarkhunter, Caterane, Magagumo, LLMadCow) please review it for errors. I think I did everything right, but just in case... -Jindl @Jindl - Well, I am not taking the immediate time to review the rolls and such, but looking over the fight I do see one issue that may make a huge difference. The way I read it, the Megaraptors last attack was a Charge + Full attack. I do not believe that you are allowed a Full Attack with a charge, as the charge states that a single Melee attack is allowed at the end of a charge and it also specifically states, as an example, that if you have multiple attacks from a high BAB (Remember this is only one example), that you only get a single melee attack. I read that to mean that the Megaraptor would have made a melee Talon attack at the end of it's charge. You may want to look over it again... |
| Jindl01-06-04, 12:00 AM | @LLMadCow - Megaraptors have the Pounce special ability. -Jindl |
| Mercy01-06-04, 12:00 AM | Smushy vs. Dusk fight is posted. It turned into nail-biter. @LLMadCow - Mega-Raptors have the pounce ability. |
| LLMadCow01-06-04, 12:05 AM | Megaraptors have the Pounce special ability. Okay. Missed that. Everything else looked fine. Good job, great fight. :cool: |
| Jindl01-06-04, 12:46 AM | *** WARNING - SPOILERS *** I think that Dusk may have been the winner in that fight, not Smushy. When Dusk is at -9 hps, his valiant mount kicks Smushy, sending her into negative hps. Since she went unconscious, her rage ended, dropping her Con, which immidiately put her hps below -10. Dusk, meanwhile, has the diehard feat and automatically stabilizes. So, Dusk should be declared the winner. -Jindl |
| cellardweller01-06-04, 01:05 AM | ****Still more spoilers**** . . . . I saw that, but it think it balances with the fact that overrun wasn't used as per tactics. . . . . *** end spoiler *** |
| Tellish_of_Ket01-06-04, 01:08 AM | @Jindl Just read the megaraptor fight. When Iron used his move action to airwalk up at a 45deg angle 15' (half move) the megaraptor would still need to make a DC 60 jump check to get him. It would need to be a standing jump (height x4 = DC) to make the charge because if the raptor used a running jump he'd be under and just past iron, before it ever got to make the jump...then there's still the arc to deal with, and even logic...she'd have to attack behind her during the charge, probably not in spirit of the rule either. But doesn't matter, as she's not in position to anyhow so it's moot. Even rolling a 20+30skill=50 DC = 12.5' height. But that's it...otherwise nice fight. EDIT: ignore what i just said, it's got 10' natural reach. :( my bad Read the Cloud Giant fight as well: “Hide behind your tricks if you like!” he ejaculates. Hmm....do me a favor and look that last word up in the dictionary. Perhaps it was meant to be put there, maybe Bruno was just so HAPPY :) about fighting the giant he creamed himself, but oh well. Tellish |
| LLMadCow01-06-04, 01:18 AM | @ToK - The Megaraptor is 12' tall and has a reach of 10'. It has a Jump 30, and can autimatically jump 8' into the air. So, if we take the 8' jump along with the 10' reach, then it can attack anything within the 18' of reach, and thus can attack Iron at a lowly 15' into the air. I had thought of that as well, and I quickly covered all the bases. I've poured over the fight, asking myself several questions, and it all looks solid. I do feel that if the vote turns out that advanced creatures are not allowed that Iron should be given an unadvanced Megaraptor for free, as he would have easily defeated it. He almost beat the Megaraptor as it was...... |
| SnarkHunter01-06-04, 01:55 AM | @Tellish: Sir? What ever are you referring to? I have done as you asked and ascertined a definition of the contentios word ; To utter suddenly and passionately; exclaim. Perhaps there is some further meaning here? By all means, elaborate if you wish too. The parlance of the times has never been my strong point, what are these 'creams' you speak of? okay. I'll stop. |
| LLMadCow01-06-04, 02:26 AM | All righr, off to read the Cloud Giant fight, for a good laugh, if nothing else. Then I am off to bed. It sounds like Snark enjoys a little bit of humor as much as I do. At times I really feel sorry for making as much of a joke as I do, but at other times, not so much. My fight will be posted tomorrow, as I stopped mid fight due to a headache, and feel it is best to finish in the morning... |
| Mercy01-06-04, 07:37 AM | Regarding the end of the Smushy vs. Dusk fight. Argh! I didn't catch either of that. Let me rerun the end of that fight again. I completely forgot about the diehard feat and I had it in my mind that you needed to charge for overrun, which isn't the case. I'll rerun it from round 8 onward. You'll need to wait until I get back from work though. |
| Caterane01-06-04, 08:01 AM | Excerpt from the Book of Vile Darkness: After 11 fights: After having interogated Bilo Darkleaf about Orcus`plans and the Lich Queen being occupied elsewhere the Harvester was able to regain a great portion of his lost power. A main indicator for this fact is the second avatar that just manifested in the midst of the arena, no doubt equally dangerous as the existing one... Muahahahahahahahahaaaaaa (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1947022#post1947022) @native english speakers: Is my quoted text grammatically correct? I study english but I`m not quite sure about that "as" at the end. Hey, what`s with diplomacy/handle animal to aquire a companion??? I need to know this before the pairings are set! |
| cellardweller01-06-04, 09:12 AM | Originally posted by Caterane @native english speakers: Is my quoted text grammatically correct? I study english but I`m not quite sure about that "as" at the end. My experience would tell me that most english speakers wouldn't be in any position to correct you, and the over-representation of computer programmers won't help. :D On another note, a slightly rushed fight has been posted @Mo I'm not going to be able to run fights for the next 2 weeks, Smushy is sitting out. |
| Jindl01-06-04, 09:40 AM | @Cat - The "as" is correct, but you should have said "and with the Lich Queen ..." Also, I think the rule is that you use Handle Animal to train the monster to learn tricks. You use Handle Animal to rear a creature, unless it has an Int of 3 or more, in which case you can use a Diplomacy check to change its attitude to Friendly. Re: Megaraptors for free - It has been suggested that Iron be awarded a regular megaraptor for free. I agree, he would have had no trouble defeating a regular raptor. But, Mo insisted on fighting the advanced one, and I don't think there should be a consolation gift. If he wants a regular raptor, he should spend another week trying for one. Lucky for Iron, he didn't use any resources. BTW: Do we want to consider a limit to the number of attempts to gain an ally that you can make in a row? Like, could Iron retry his advanced Raptor fight a couple of times before facing another gladiator? Or do we want to limit at most a single monster fight between PvP matches? -Jindl |
| Caterane01-06-04, 09:48 AM | Thanks Jindl. Despite Cellardweller`s warning I trust you on that :D Handle animal: Yeah yeah I know. But I want to have the Dc required else I`m going to talk to the Tarrasque until it volunteers just to shut me up. I don`t think there should be a limit to monster fights in a row. First of all this just complicates things with another rule and then, that fight takes place instead of a normal fight, earns you no money, delays your arena progression and you have to mod a fight for this active character. |
| Jindl01-06-04, 10:07 AM | @Cat - You know that before you even attempt the rearing checks (handle animal or diplomacy depending on the Int), you have to defeat the creature in a monster fight first? So, the Tarrasque is certainly not available for any of our current PC's... :D On the monster fight issue, yeah, I see what you mean. But take our level 9's for instance. Iron is not really falling behind by pursueing his ally, nor did he expend any resources in the fight. If the 9's were to stay inactive another 2 weeks, then Iron could try 2 more times at the advanced Raptor, with no penalties. And that is whats bothering me. I don't think you should get free retries if you fail to tame the creature. IMO, you should have to face another PC (win or lose) before you can do another monster fight. The arena is about PvP after all, and it will grow boring if you have to moderate the same player vs monster rematch several times... Also, I should point out that monster fights screw up our characters / moderators ratio. Normally we need to moderate one fight per 2 characters. But when you do monster fights, you must moderate one fight for one character. If we have a week with 5 or 6 monster fights, we could easily run out of moderators (or force our mods to all run the "upper" limit, with no benefit becuase they would all lose the credit they just got since Mo would delete the column). Is what I'm saying making sense (I feel I may not be making my statement clearly...) -Jindl [EDIT]@ Cat - How do we differentiate between which Avatar of the Harvester you are referring to? Is there a way you could label them slightly differently so we can identify which is which (beyond just saying the level 9 harvester or the level 2 harvester...) [EDIT2] Jindl should have said "to which Avatar of the Harvester you are referring?", to be gramatically correct. :D |
| Moherajikuyx01-06-04, 10:26 AM | No consolation gift please! As said, the arena is no place for compensations :P Seems that anyone believes that Iron would have defeated the normal megaraptor. He was defeated from one, advanced by only 1 HD! I believe that this makes my point: advanced monsters self-balance being more hard to get. Next time I'll have to spend resources to get it, it seems, or risk missing the level nine fights. So, with this in mind, I'll open the poll (and the one on PAO) The limit to monster fights is - up to now - in the fact that a gladiator can make a fight a week, do you think this is not enough? I may add it to the weekly polls. Originally posted by cellardweller So you won't mind if I'm a little late with my fight this week :( . No worry cellar. Holiday times are exceptions. And now, to the fights! :) *Edit* 1. I thought we were goin to start the level nines?? :| 2. I added the moderators' requests: did I miss anything? |
| Caterane01-06-04, 10:55 AM | Now for the third time: I need the DC`s!! I know that you can use the skills but how? Dc = Hd? The Harvester Avatars will be distinguishable by getting some kind of nickname the audience will give them but at the moment I haven`t decided yet. These are my options for now; perhaps you can help me in my choice: lvl9: Doombringer lvl2: Deathshade lvl9: Knellstriker (in reference to his mount) lvl3: Soul Reaver (in reference to a weapon he will craft) Then there are names like "Impaler", "Death`s Advokat", "Abyssal charger", "Steeldriver", or "Grim Reaper" The chosen name will be put in parenthis behind the real name like that: "The Harvester (Knellstriker)" and "The Harvester (Soulreaver)" |
| Jindl01-06-04, 11:46 AM | DC's (this is taken directly from the Handle Animal skill in the SRD): For creatures* of 1 or 2 Int Rear a wild animal: Handle Animal DC 15 + Hit Dice Teach a trick: Handle Animal DC is based on the trick *If the creature is not an animal, then apply a -5 penalty. For creatures with an Int of 3 or more These creatures are not available through Handle Animal. As a result, they are not available for taming / training. You could get one through use of the leadership feat. ----------------------------------------- My earlier suggestion about using diplomacy was incorrect. I was mistakenly thinking that you could use Handle Animal on creatures with an Int of 3 or more. According to the skill description, the creatures must either be an animal, or have an Int of 1 or 2. So, the only way to get a creature of Int 3 or more is leadership. And that means diplomacy cannot be used to get a tamed / trained creature (though you could still use the diplomacy skill for your planar cohort, if you are a thaumaturgist.) -Jindl |
| Moherajikuyx01-06-04, 02:29 PM | New thing to add on the default sheet: If you possess handled monsters, corpses or anything else gained through a monster fight, you'll have to add a link to the monster fight in the special section. The fights of level niners began with the monster fights: I set them ready! Who wants to fight shall check his equipment :) News on the rules: cohorts actual rules (I did a minor addition, losing a prestige fight. If people find it problematic, tell it here... I added it now for sake of keeping things going) Edity: I'm adding the polls: 1. PAO: do you think that the spell should have an HD limit = target's HDs, be it a house rule or the real meaning of the spell description? 2. Do you think that avdanced monsters are balanced enough as to allow them in the monster fights for corpses or allies? I think this is neutral enough... Are there matters with some request that I forget? Note: the polls are set, the rest we discussed enough I think; next week agenda will be somewhat broader and more "ideal" I'd say. On the plate: - shall we allow classes/custom stats, skills and feats to cohorts, - what about templates? - shall allies bee revived/restored/repaired for free? |
| Caterane01-06-04, 02:34 PM | Mo, can we finish our monster fight tomorow? If not I would suggest you finish it on your own using the tactics I sent you. I don`t think the "live" session lasts too long now that I am buffed... |
| Moherajikuyx01-06-04, 02:53 PM | Cat - come on let's try to finish that. Tomorrow I'll be at disposition. I find changing kind of fight on the run rather disturbing, I think it should be better to at least exchange the first blows. The main problem is starting the blow exchange, as you guess. |
| Caterane01-06-04, 03:04 PM | Mo, I just wanted to leave but I can take a later train at 23:00. We may be able to trade a few blows at least. Contact me with ICQ ASAP |
| Moherajikuyx01-06-04, 04:42 PM | About the polls... New ones! Post once on the polls thread, and let us know the way you think! The post shall be edited every time there is a new poll. The therad is http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=114957 |
| Jindl01-06-04, 04:46 PM | I don't understand why the Harvester is fighting the advanced nightmare? How does he plan to control the beast, should he win? It is stated VERY clearly in the Handle Animal rules (which I paraphrased above), that you cannot use Handle Animal on creatures with an Int of 3 or more. The nightmare has an Int of 16. The creature is also too high an ECL to become a cohort. So since both leadership and handle animal are out, how do you plan to acquire the nightmare as an ally? With 15 HD, it cannot be made into a zombie, and if animated as a skeleton, it wouldn't retain its flight or cool fire-related abilities. I don't understand the purpose in the monster fight... -Jindl [edit] @Mo - Could you break poll question #20 into: a) animal handling, b) corpses, or c) cohorts. That way we have the option to vote that they are okay for cohorts, but not for corpses... etc. |
| MotherBast01-06-04, 05:25 PM | While the allie topic is up, has it occured to anyone else that Perhapse whe should put a HD cap on allies atainable with Spells/skills? After all, the best allies should be the ones granted by class, which will be limited in HD based on the level of the Druid/Ranger/Pally/Sororcer/Wizard who owns them. An allie atained through Leadership could only have HD equal to his masters Level -2, tops. And that is assuming the creature has no LA. At 7th level, no Cohort Candy could attain is chalenge rating 3. Only a couple of possible cohorts are even challange rating 2. None are better than a 400gp warhorse attainable at level 2 with 400gp. Meanwhile, Iron was 9 damage away from ataining a 16 HD creature, With a challange rating of at least 8, probably 9. Iron only has 9 HD. And he was going to aquire this allie not with a class ability or a feat, but with a skill. Bruno meanwhile has a 17 HD allie, challange rating of 7, attained with a spell. So lets recap shall we. The class ability, which should grant the "best" allies, instead grant the 3rd best. Leadership, which should grant the 2ed best allies, instead grants the worst. Handel Animal, which should grant the worst allies, instead grants the second best. And the spells, which should grant the next to worse allies instead grant the best. When a Class Ability and a Feat are made inferior to both a spell and a skill then something is amiss. |
| Ethendril01-06-04, 05:32 PM | When a Class Ability and a Feat are made inferior to both a spell and a skill then something is amiss. Agreed, and I'm becoming more afraid of the companions than I am of the characters. Ethendril |
| Arstimis01-06-04, 05:37 PM | I think the whole cohort/allie/whatever it is now thing is getting out of hand. This is supposed to be a battle arena, a player vs. player, 1v1. If it were up to me I would drop all allies...or to make it like a real arena, you can have as many allies as you want, but you can only take yourself into the arena to fight. If there was a real arena you wouldnt be able to take allies into it to help you fight. Its a test of your abilities, not your allies. |
| Tharkos01-06-04, 06:18 PM | One of the problems with the "spell gained cohorts" is that we only allow one "assistant" per combatant. This annihilates the possibility for which Animate Dead was originally created ... to have masses of mindless slaves at your disposal. So everyone goes for the one superior cohort and no one should blame them. Although it is technically impossible to create such high HD undead (with that spell) since the DMG doesnt list any Onyxes of higher value than 80 gp it was "decided" to ignore that table. IMO high HD undead are created through a different process, but thats not the point. If the rules for allies are fiddled with the "1 cohort per combatant" limit has to be checked as well. Maybe Jindl would like to have a horde of wolves sometime to spread through the arena and search for his opponent ... maybe someone else wants an undead army sometime ... who knows. |
| Mercy01-06-04, 07:18 PM | @Cellardweller and Ethendril. I reran the fight from round 8 on and came up with the same over result. I'm sorry I misread the Overrun entry in the PHB and thought you could only use it in conjunction with a charge. One thing to keep in mind, the Improved Overrun feat does not prevent AoOs, it just grants a +4 to the str check and prevents the defender from avoiding the Overrun. If either of you guys want I'll send the new round 8+ fight to you. |
| Magagumo01-06-04, 07:52 PM | Hmm, close fight w/ that Megaraptor, Moh, perhaps this will cement the importance of Power Attack in all our minds ;) *Stretches proudly* And it seems Bruno managed to bring down a beast of CR 11 with few scratches... yea yea, I shouldn't brag, but he didn't even get through the False Life. I agree with Jindl that we should avoid focusing too much on monster fights (I'm done for a lil while with those, Storm Giant is going to need sometime - Tony will be a huge help, but I don't like the looks of him, and that Titan is a distant possiblity (chain lightning :eek: )). As for the Leadership feat, I continue to be in favor of allowing them to get an intelligent NPC, and will be happy to moderate fights which contain such NPCs (Candy or Hanz [?]) if it will allow these people to fully realize the power of the feat. Remember, also, that Leadership garners you a host of followers, so that might be a side bonus which is not accurately represented in our arena. Handle Animal remains an expensive method of acquiring pets (still costs money to get the young animal, right?) The class features which has been so duly scorned, also provide these benefits for free (Handled Animals and Skeletal "pets" cost us cash) and the player is not punished if the creature is slain. Also, I've never seen the druid pets to be weak, we just have only had one druid left in the arena, and Jindl's been frozen for a while (Ayan should be arriving on the scene soon, so then we can see how she does with her own companion ;)). Trust me, Nox is fierce as heck, especially when he is Huge :-D As for Spell companions- I only know of SM/SNA (which has a limited duration), Planar Binding/Ally (which requires Extend Spell or a Thamurturgist with at least 8 caster levels and Extend Summon to be effective), or the animate dead spell, which has been well-proven to not produce the best allies (Strong? yes, smart or efficient? No) |
| Jedros01-06-04, 08:10 PM | Originally posted by Tharkos This annihilates the possibility for which Animate Dead was originally created ... to have masses of mindless slaves at your disposal. So everyone goes for the one superior cohort and no one should blame them. Although it is technically impossible to create such high HD undead (with that spell) since the DMG doesnt list any Onyxes of higher value than 80 gp it was "decided" to ignore that table. I understand your point about the max value for a random onyx, but I disagree with your perceived intention of the spell. I don't believe the person who decided the material component for this and other corpse-animating spells had an 80gp cap in mind for onyx. From SRD: Create Undead spell You must place a black onyx gem worth at least 50 gp per HD of the undead to be created into the mouth or eye socket of each corpse. So, while it is concievable that there does not exist an onyx worth over 80gp in the core world, I do not believe this was intented to be a limitation to animate dead, create undead and create greater undead. Otherwise, the only corpses useable for the create undead spells would have 1HD. You keep bringing this up, so what makes you think that it was intended that all created wraiths, spectres an devourers should have 1HD? Why would they say "at least" 50gp per HD if there is no black onxy gem that can accomodate more than 1HD? |
| Jindl01-06-04, 11:31 PM | Originally posted by MotherBast After all, the best allies should be the ones granted by class, which will be limited in HD based on the level of the Druid/Ranger/Pally/Sororcer/Wizard who owns them. If you look at my ally suggestion a couple of pages back, I bring up the same points. Though, since class granted allies have special powers (evasion, share spells, SR, etc) I do believe them to be the most powerful type, with the possible exception of familiars (though Bubo is fearsome :) ) Originally posted by MotherBast An allie atained through Leadership could only have HD equal to his masters Level -2, tops. And that is assuming the creature has no LA. At 7th level, no Cohort Candy could attain is chalenge rating 3. Only a couple of possible cohorts are even challange rating 2. None are better than a 400gp warhorse attainable at level 2 with 400gp. This inadequacy will resolve itself at higher levels, but this is also why I suggested allowing classed and advanced creatures as cohorts. Not only to distinguish them from tamed/trained animals, but to make the feat better in comparison. Originally posted by MotherBast Meanwhile, Iron was 9 damage away from ataining a 16 HD creature, With a challange rating of at least 8, probably 9. Iron only has 9 HD. And he was going to aquire this allie not with a class ability or a feat, but with a skill. The advanced Raptor was CR 9 by my calculation, and the point you make is exactly why I am against allowing advanced creatures for taming. If you want an advanced creature, take the leadership feat and get one as a cohort. At least then it's HD will be capped by the feat. Originally posted by MotherBast Bruno meanwhile has a 17 HD allie, challange rating of 7, attained with a spell. I feel that though Tony is tough, Bruno did have to fight and defeat him, plus pay money to cast the spell, plus as a skeleton, he is pretty sucky. So, its about the best ally a spell can provide (short of gates and high level summons) and he's only CR 7, meaning he'll be lunch once characters reach level 12+. Originally posted by MotherBast So lets recap shall we. The class ability, which should grant the "best" allies, instead grant the 3rd best. Leadership, which should grant the 2ed best allies, instead grants the worst. Handel Animal, which should grant the worst allies, instead grants the second best. And the spells, which should grant the next to worse allies instead grant the best. When a Class Ability and a Feat are made inferior to both a spell and a skill then something is amiss. I agree completely, and these points are the main reason I listed my suggestion for allies. Please take a look at it (on pg 129 of this thread) and let me know what you think. -Jindl FYI: @Mo - You realize that Iron could not rear the 16HD advanced megaraptor as that would require a +21 on his handle animal skill. Its DC 24 just to rear the regular megaraptor... |
| LLMadCow01-07-04, 03:05 AM | @all - Pklease fpoerhgioved me . I ca mnoto ruhn m ym3 gighyj. lIGRE DSICUKS |
| Moherajikuyx01-07-04, 06:06 AM | Hi guys, I'm a bit busy today, and there's the back-from holidays issue, so I think I'll do the pairings tomorrow. Also, seems that LL has life problems, is there anyone willing to do his fight? I know, this sux, he should have sent the tactics. About Iron+megaraptor - there's quite a huge thing you guys don't consider. Jindl, in his strenuous love for me, decided to send Iron against a 16 HD mega, which Iron is far far away from being able to control. That requires a handle check of 31...Iron is at +24, 9 hd, which would be an advancement of only 1 hd. Not a huge difference in CR. Mag, sorry bout spoiling your bragging :P Jindl, why did you do that? The 9 hd megaraptor was even listed on the sheet... :| Besides, it just got in my mind that to handle an animal, you can't kill it... Animals to be handled should be subdued, and subdual damage will give them +4 to AC in most cases, and many spells are out, which makes them even harder to get. |
| Caterane01-07-04, 06:08 AM | Yes!!! My feeblemind on LLMad worked :D Obviously the one on Jindl too: With 15 HD, it cannot be made into a zombie, and if animated as a skeleton, it wouldn't retain its flight or cool fire-related abilities. I don't understand the purpose in the monster fight... Excerpt from the MM, p225 Winged skeletons can`t use their wings to fly. If the base creature flew magically, so can the skeleton. Well, a nightmare has no wings but can still fly. Perhaps you live next to a nuclear plant and your horses use their hooves to levitate but I my humble opinion it still seems that there`s some magic behind this creature`s movement. And for the cool fire abilities: you don`t mean the mighty 1d4 extra fire damage, do you? The reason is a HUGE mount with the fly ability because the Harvester will be enlarged permanently. |
| Jindl01-07-04, 10:46 AM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx About Iron+megaraptor - there's quite a huge thing you guys don't consider. Jindl, in his strenuous love for me, decided to send Iron against a 16 HD mega, which Iron is far far away from being able to control. That requires a handle check of 31...Iron is at +24, 9 hd, which would be an advancement of only 1 hd. Not a huge difference in CR. Mag, sorry bout spoiling your bragging :P Jindl, why did you do that? The 9 hd megaraptor was even listed on the sheet... :| Sorry, Mo ... I never saw it on your sheet (but looking again, I do see it listed as your mount ? a section I deleted for the fight, since you didn't have a megaraptor yet.) I had it in my head that you wanted one that was advanced up 'til the size change, thus 16 hd. It didn't occur to me that you didn't have enough skill ranks to handle it yet. You would have definately wasted a 9 hd raptor, and I would certainly award you the win if that is what you were supposed to face. In the future, to clear up confusion, I would suggest listing how many HD you want for advanced monster fights as part of the pairings line (assuming advanced monsters pass on the polls). Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Besides, it just got in my mind that to handle an animal, you can't kill it... Animals to be handled should be subdued, and subdual damage will give them +4 to AC in most cases, and many spells are out, which makes them even harder to get. Why not take them to -1 thru -9 hps, then stabilize and heal them, so you can train them? If you have to deal subdual damage, then arcane spellcasters will never be able to tame one ... @Cat - So the nightmare retains its flight, but loses all its fire-based stuff (extra hoof damage, the smoke effects, etc.). Okay, thanks! -Jindl |
| Moherajikuyx01-07-04, 11:12 AM | Originally posted by Jindl Why not take them to -1 thru -9 hps, then stabilize and heal them, so you can train them? Yes, that makes sense. Only problem, I think the only way a character has to know that kind of info is through Death Watch, or am I wrong? One can metagame about his hps, but not the foe's... Even fighters can deal a strike or two, but then they better do subdual, if they want to get their prey. Casters should have other means: I just read a new rule on the FAQ, about how dealing subdual CdGs ;) Iron will fight again: I had to be clearer, you're right Jindl. Besides, this will help me testing the system with the subdual rolls, and it proves my point about monster fights with advanceds. |
| Jindl01-07-04, 11:52 AM | @Mo - About the Iku fight: Well, the Iku fight went about as I expected... but at least Dr. Dre had to use some resources. One note: True strike doesn't have any somatic components, so unless Dre made his listen check and heard the casting, he couldn't spellcraft it and know what it was ... which would mean no mirror image. Don't think it would have changed anything, just something for the future. About the Subduing Monsters: On the -1 to -9 hps for monsters ... just attack them until they drop, and then if they are not totally dead, then they are between -1 and -9. I meant that casters can't alter their damaging spells to be subdual, unless the have the non-core feat Subdual Substitution. Also, I had 2 credits after last week. I ran two fights this week with only one active character. Should I now have 4 credits? -Jindl |
| Moherajikuyx01-07-04, 12:00 PM | Originally posted by Jindl About the Subduing Monsters [...] just attack them until they drop, and then if they are not totally dead, then they are between -1 and -9 Yes, it's viable, but if one kills it (maximum damage rolled, for instance), then he wastes his weekly fight. Darn, sorry for the S component! The mirror image would have been done a bit later though: it was in tactics, and Iku Zorandered even though it was active, so I don't think Iku could have done any better. Something to remember though. Yes, I like it more if it's not a free ride too. *Edit* credits: you're at three: no one got a credit coz I don't think that giving one to everyone is really sensed. It only easies life to moderators, making it harder for players. Sorry about, I hope you don't have to wait another week for your higher ECL. Speaking of which: note that you can begin play with credits at a higher ECL, but onyl if you couldn't otherwise: you can't have normal class levels in change of credits. Also, Tellish, if you pay the three credits you'll have the penalty for your gith removed. |
| barrel_master01-07-04, 12:07 PM | Humm... LL isn't around? Is anyone else taking the fight? |
| Ethendril01-07-04, 12:10 PM | @ Mo: Could you please update the HP section on the main page? I am trying to update my HP, but was unsure if I had max first level then MM method, or what. Please clarify that for me... -Ethendril |
| Moherajikuyx01-07-04, 12:26 PM | Shall be clearer now Ethendril Jindl, you might do LL's fight to get a credit more... |
| Ethendril01-07-04, 12:30 PM | (brb 7, fgt 6, clr 5, rog 4, wiz 3). I guess it was this part that was throwing me off, because it looked like the old method. |
| Magagumo01-07-04, 12:45 PM | I have no idea how you spoiled my bragging, Moh, so don't worry about it :P. Besides, I am not extremely proud that Bruno dropped the giant, more relieved that I can legally have my skeleton for next week's lvl 9 fights. Hmm, I suppose we should attempt to avoid repeat fights between the 9th lvl chars (as there otherwise would be no reason to have waited). Thusly, in assistance to your memory, Moh, I will remind you that Bruno has now fought Ebelin, Moon-moon, Elder (2x), Harvester (2x), so maybe have me tussle with Jindl or one of the new guys whose names I forget at the moment ;) Curiosity on credits now, do we get them when we run more fights than characters? or when we run as many fights as we have characters? If it's the later, than I will happily run 2 fights a week with Bruno and Zorander in action so Ayan can get the boost (why not try and make her more fierce at the get-go? ;)) (Note: I mean running fights for next week, when I'm at school again :-P) |
| Moherajikuyx01-07-04, 01:07 PM | Mag, for that, send a challenge please - I already have enough problems without needing to worry for that too. Credits - as I just told, with credits you can't exactly buy levels. You buy ECL or LAs only. With 3 (or 4) credits you can have an ECL 3 drow fighter 1 (bugbear 3), but not a ECL 4 drow fighter 2 for 4 nor a bugbear fighter 1 for 5. I hope I'm clear enough. The reason for this is as usual, that the arena has to prove characters are survivable at low levels, not only powerful at high ones. |
| Jindl01-07-04, 01:40 PM | @Mo - How about we allow the characters to start with no more than 2 class levels. That way our ECL 4, Half-Dragons (for 6 credits) won't just have a single hit die (when facing a normal character with 4 hit dice). Instead, we could trade in 9 credits and start at ECL5 with 2 class levels and thus 2 hit dice. Otherwise, all of our 1 hd ECL 4 creatures will end up being bumped by the 3 loss rule, because they die from the first successful attack. I suggest that the rule would be: "Starting ECL may be increased beyond 2 by trading in credits (at 3 credits per +1 ECL). No creature may begin with more than 2 class levels." Sound okay? @Mag - Why doesn't Bruno challenge Iron the Panza? We all know how Iron feel's about necromancy... PS: Unfortunately, I will not have time to do LL's fight. Maybe Cat, Snark, or Tellish? -Jindl |
| barrel_master01-07-04, 02:12 PM | Since it looks as if Peter's fight will be delayed till next week I'm activating another char... Please give me 0 fights this week unless mods have to mod over the # of active chars this week. |
| Jindl01-07-04, 03:00 PM | @Cat and Mo - I'm keeping up with the Harvester monster fight, it's very exciting. But there are a couple of errors in how spiritual weapon is being handled: 1. The spiritual weapon only gets a single attack on the round the spell was cast, it doesn't start getting multiple attacks until the 2nd round of the spell duration. 2. When the spiritual weapon returns to your side (after the target moves out of range, or out of sight, or the target dies), it takes a move action to direct the weapon to start attacking again, plus the weapon begins attacking with only one attack that round. This is per spiritual weapon. So, when the nightmare moves out of range (or out of sight), and all 3 spiritual weapons return to the harvester, it will take 3 separate move actions to start the weapons attacking again (once the nightmare is back in range and back in sight), and each of the weapons will only get a single attack on the round where the Harvester starts it back up. The rolls and damage for the weapons is thus off in rounds 3-5. -Jindl |
| Caterane01-07-04, 03:11 PM | Jindl, why don`t you go to bed? :D The spiritual weapon only gets a single attack on the round the spell was cast, it doesn't start getting multiple attacks until the 2nd round of the spell duration. This is not right. It is nowhere written what you just said. On the contrary the spell descriptions says: It pops into existance and attacks the same round using your bab, possibly allowing for multiple attacks. And with the move action to redirect: I got a geothermal check to know its location so there was no need to do so. Most of the weapons didn`t hit anyway. And I can always refer to Tactic A to have them attack without being hit ;) but that would be really boring. When Mo returns I go into melee. Shouldn`t take too long then (one way or the other) Good night Jindl |
| Jindl01-07-04, 03:29 PM | Excerpt from the SRD, spell description for Spiritual Weapon It strikes the opponent you designate, starting with one attack in the round the spell is cast and continuing each round thereafter on your turn. It uses your base attack bonus (possibly allowing it multiple attacks per round in subsequent rounds) plus your Wisdom modifier as its attack bonus. It strikes as a spell, not as a weapon, so, for example, it can damage creatures that have damage reduction. As a force effect, it can strike incorporeal creatures without the normal miss chance associated with incorporeality. The weapon always strikes from your direction. It does not get a flanking bonus or help a combatant get one. Your feats or combat actions do not affect the weapon. If the weapon goes beyond the spell range, if it goes out of your sight, or if you are not directing it, the weapon returns to you and hovers. Each round after the first, you can use a move action to redirect the weapon to a new target. If you do not, the weapon continues to attack the previous round’s target. On any round that the weapon switches targets, it gets one attack. Subsequent rounds of attacking that target allow the weapon to make multiple attacks if your base attack bonus would allow it to. Even if the spiritual weapon is a ranged weapon, use the spell’s range, not the weapon’s normal range increment, and switching targets still is a move action. Seems pretty clear: Only one attack on the round the spell was cast. When the target leaves sight or spell range, the weapon returns to you (and thus is no longer attacking any target). Directing it to attack a new target (or the old one when it reenters sight and range) is a move action, per each weapon. On any round when the weapon begins attacking a new target, it gets only a single attack. Does this help? -Jindl Also, I do not think you can take AoO's with a spiritual weapon, as I don't think it threatens any spaces. But that's more of an interpretation of the spell, as opposed to something that is clearly spelled out like the above colored text. |
| Caterane01-07-04, 03:36 PM | :mad: Well then. I have another tactic to still be able to use the weapons. But why isn`t this written in my PHB? Jindl, if you want to be useful why don`t you tell me how I can charge the damn thing; something I am trying since round 1. |
| Jindl01-07-04, 03:45 PM | Well, looking over the rolls, everything is fine damage-wise, until the last round. We can just ignore some extra rolls the weapons made, when they should have only attacked once when created (but they missed on their mistaken second attacks, so no biggie). But in the last round, You summoned SW#4, which got one attack and missed (ignore the second attack). And you could redirect one of your 3 hovering SW's as a move action, so I assume you would redirect SW#1, which missed on its first attack. So the nightmare shouldn't have taken the 11 damage from SW#2 and SW#3 on the last round, and should have 11 more hps. As for charging it, let me think on that a minute, and I'll try to come up with something. :D -Jindl I sent you a PM. |
| Caterane01-07-04, 03:50 PM | I go to the fitness center meanwhile so take your time... |
| SnarkHunter01-07-04, 04:22 PM | SInce I have (as I've pointed out on a number of occasions) no life at all, I think I manage the emergency fight. Anyone who can get me tactics ASAP. If I don't have them in 3 hours I'll go with the default. Even with the rushed nature, I'll try to make the fight entertaining for everyone. BTW Mo: This makes Two! extra fights for this week. Granted Mag's fight wasn't preordained but I think it should still count :D. @jindle: I think the class levels thing is a good idea but its probably not necessary for a creature that already has HD, like a bugbear or lizard folk. I would say 2 class levels unless they already have 2 or more HD from another source. Sound good? |
| Jindl01-07-04, 04:33 PM | Sounds good. I just couldn't think of a good way to word that. I didn't want to write "no more than 2 hd" because some of the ECL creatures have 3 or more racial hd's. But we could write "No more than 2 hds, or the racial hd's whichever is greater." Remember hd's include racial and class hd's. What do you think? I just really hate the idea of a moderator working overtime for several weeks, just to bring in a LA+3 creature (at ECL 4 with 1 class level and no racial HD), only to have that creature lose the next 3 fights and get bumped, just because it has 8 hps. Starting with 2 HD helps a lot, even if it costs more credits due to the higher ECL. (9 credits for ECL5 = 2 class levels + 0 racial HD's + 3 LA, has more hps than the 6 credits for ECL4 = 1 class level + 0 racial HD's + 3 LA.) Can you tell that I am thinking about a half-dragon character ... |
| MotherBast01-07-04, 04:53 PM | Indeed, rather than say a creature may not begin with more than 2 class levels, say they may not begin with more than 2 HD, unless the HD of the race is higher than 2 naturaly. Also, Jindl, I went back and reread your suggestions on page 129. I had read them before, but a lot of it was just suggestion at the time. Now much of it is incorprated. You make a lot of valid points in the two main posts. I have been against incorprating Classed cohorts since we even begain decussing Leadership, but it seems now that it wouldn't be so bad an option. Before, I had it in my head that this was an arena, and it was supposed to be one on one. Today it occured to me, the arena is just a name. This is really about testing builds, and cohorts are a legitamit part of any build with the leadership feat. A lot of fights ran don't even take place in an arena anymore. The storyline is expanding, but even if it wasen't, this isen't a role-play thread, its a Min/Max thread, and we shouldn't allow the backdrop to limit the builds. With that in mind, I have officialy changed my mind. I agree that classed cohorts should be allowed. I was planning Candy's advancement today, and I noticed that under the current rules, the strongest Cohort Candy could ever attain is an Androsphinx, which has ECL 17. She would have to be level 20 before she could attain this creature. It is Challange rating 9. At level 20, Candy will finally be able to atain a cohort of equal Challange rating as the MegaRaptor Iron would have killed if he had used power attack a single time during that fight. By the time she can attain this cohort, it will be useless. If we allowed classed cohorts, however, then she could have that barbarian she wanted, at 17th level, with a nice Challange rating of 17 (though since it would have to use DMG lised stats for a barbarian, and would not have any gear of its own except what Candy provided, the Challange Rating would probably be closer to 14 or 15, but thats still better than 9). But there is still the issue of Modarator workload. But, how much more difficult would it be to run a fight with 2 character than a fight with one character and a creature from the MM that you might not have ever even looked at before? If I had that Androsphinx, dont think every Mod who ever ran a fight with Candy in it wouldn't have to worry about getting the sphinx to exactly the right hight that my opponit is underneith it, and inside the radius of it roar, and Candy isen't.... that is a bit of work in and of itself. Then they have to handel the Sphinx buffing itself (it casts as a 6th level cleric), not to mention the prebuffs Candy put on it. Then the Sphinx melee's while Candy casts/shoots/sings from the edge of the arena..... A pretty complacated fight. A classed cohort couldn't be much more difficult than this, even a caster. Another concern is casters having caster cohorts. Well, first off, the fact that a character taking the leadership feat needs at least a 14 in chrasmisa to get maxed out cohorts means only Sorcerors are likely to take the feat. Currently not many Sorcs are floating around. So far, only 2 characters have the feat, Candy, who is a bard, and Hanz, the fighter/rogue, with one level of wiz. I don't think we will have much to worry about in the Modarator workload department. I think this would still leave leadership as the weakest means of aquiring an allie, but it would put it much more on par with the other methods being used at the moment. Actually, at 9th level, Candy could have a CR 7 cohort, equal to Bruno's skelaton. And the fact Candy didn't have to fight her cohort first would give leadership an edge. That, I think, is the way it should be. Man, I used a lot of words to say something very simple. Jindl, I was wrong, and you were right. Classed Cohorts should be allowed. |
| SnarkHunter01-07-04, 05:04 PM | Wahoo another convert! Additionally, I as well have been following the harvester Nightmare fight with great interest and after a fair amount of thought I think its the only workable scheme for the (much delayed, sorry) Good vs. Evil fight. At this point, given the number of interested players and the insane workload one GM would be under to control them having everyone control their own characters seems like a good compromise. Since I actually kind of doubt we'll finish this in a weeks time, why don't we lock in characters as they are now, and continue to play with them in that form for this fight only. I'm going to go off and re-compile all who would like to fight for good or evil. Mmm gonna be fun I think :). |
| Caterane01-07-04, 05:17 PM | @Snark: I tell you this looks far simpler than it is. There are tons of chatting between Mo and me; the amount posted is just a very small part of the whole workload. If you want to run the good vs evil fight then I strongly recommend that we limit it to 4 vs 4 else this fight will take forever. Consider that you only have 1 week time. The characters in this fight will level after the week and their stats will change. What if 1 player doesn`t show up for a day or two? The thread would get stuck. Or the coordination needed for so many people. This is just an advice from my side based on the experience from my own live fight; it might work well with the G vs E. |
| MotherBast01-07-04, 05:45 PM | A simpler method might be for each partisapent on each side to send tactics to a single player. One for good, one for Evil. Then a neutral modarator, like MO or Jindl, runs the fight with one player controling each team. Then you need only have 3 people online at the same time, not 7 or 8, and you don't have to worry about the same person fighting on both sides. |
| SnarkHunter01-07-04, 05:46 PM | Mmm a persuasive argument. At the moment I had one idea regarding people who didn't show. If someone doesn't post within an hour of the designated time the remainder of thier team would take an action for them. While that person might not appreciate the glorious death that resulted from it, it would be fun to read :D. Also, whatever fight results are in comming everyone would remain at whatever level they started the fight with (and their 1st post in the fight.) If it doesn't seem to work, eh, we stop. Lesson learned. C'est la vie. If we shoot for everyone finishing 3 rounds a day, that's ~21 done in one weeks time. I don't know when we could start exactly but if anyone on the following list would like to drop out, or anyone not on would like to be added, let me know. [b]Good: Skymoon Moonbow 9th level Faldion Oathgaurd 7th Cliodhna d'Elrich 6th Sir Roger 6th Dusk the Adament 4th Ebelin 9th level [i]Evil Bruno Willikins 9th Bilo Darkleaf 9th Kelek 7th Iku rex: 4th (maybe we could just let you be a cornugon on this one special occasion :devil:.) Weight of numbers does, I must admit, favor the hosts of heaven in this one. Hmm... Edit: Also a good idea Mother, though again, I worry about the workload. |
| Caterane01-07-04, 05:55 PM | We need 2 lvl 6 evil guys then it would be equal. Or we drop the 2 lvl 6 good guys (there will be other fights soon). I would prefer to have number of characters evened out Edit: What about the 9ths? Do they fight tomorow or do we wait another week? I would prefer the latter one else it won`t take long until we are at the same point at when we decided to freeze the level. |
| SnarkHunter01-07-04, 08:48 PM | YO (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2270054#post2270054)! Fights up, not terribly flavorful but still easy on the eyes. I went pretty straightforward with Peter since I didn't recieve his tactics in time. @Cat: Weeeellllll....there is one other possibility. I think we can agree one 9th is prolly the equal of two 6th level char's. In which case we could add or remove someone to either side and it would probably be equal. Any volunteers?' @Mo: All my char's are ready, including 9th if we want to start this week. |
| Moherajikuyx01-08-04, 05:55 AM | I think to understand that players who post less often (Arstimis, Ethendril for instance) are against the ally thing, and I want of course to consider their opinion too. Make yourselves be heard! leadership: come on guys, if it was worthless no one would have taken that feat. And I'm gonna take it too with Babar, as soon as 6th, just to have a free fancy and powerful mount, and not for a classed cohort. I'd allow advanceds though, that makes for a bit of customization and power more. What if we start with advanced cohorts only, then move on? Originally posted by MotherBast how much more difficult would it be to run a fight with 2 character than a fight with one character and a creature from the MM that you might not have ever even looked at before? The real problem is not the fight in itself (unless there's an arcane or sneaky cohort around...): it's in the pre-fight checklist. It's already long enough for just 1 pc; having only a monster as cohort makes it look-n-good to go; having another pc makes it who-cares-I'll-trust. Not good. Good vs. evil - I volunteer. I think the best way is like we're doing with Harvy vs. Cauchy, but with players who post constantly from their timezones - try to post twice a day - and I will just solve disputes. I think that the "team will decide in case of delays" is a good idea too. I'd set a delay of 12 h minimum (then the team decides). Any other ideas? Wouldn't it be fantastic if we could split this thread in various... I already requested the wizos to make the arena a subcathegory, though it seems this requires a lot of time. Snark thanks for running the fight, of course the credit's on its way. barrel_master & Mercy, please accept this fight as an exceptional case. It's incredible already that it happened only once... Magagumo you have to write yes or no, on the polls... About PAO, I add the option to write "ban" as more than one requested it already. Jindl, tnx 4 pointing that. Note that Cat was right the first time, I wrote that the SWs got to Harvy's side but the nightmare didn't really get far enough. Glad that method has approval, really. credits the higher cost than mine in your proposal convinced me Jindl, I'm adding the option of having a minimum of two HDs. PAIRINGS WITHIN 12 Hs! |
| Irlina01-08-04, 08:08 AM | Hi all! Well I came back from my trip to the High North (Estonia, Sweden and Finnland) and can only say: Go there, it's worth it. And no, you won't freeze, trust me ;) One sad thing though. In the near future I have too much RL-issues. So although I'd like to give the one or other a free trip to the next level right now I have now time even to reinvent my lacking tactics for the next fights. I always wished to have more time or even mod here (evil grin) but was never really able too. Big Hug to all of you, be it our hero by mouth (miau!), the lawyer and evil polymorpher (great idea!!!), the guy holding everything together and taking the tough decisions (half the spells have to be prepared), the master of cans, hunter of scales, the liquid wyrm (great mod you are!), the crazy milk-guy or anyone else here not coming right to my mind (sorry for that). You really form a small unique community within here! I wish all of you successful leveling (even without my support) and luck with both rolls and mods ;) Farewell by the superior second of fights :) |
| MotherBast01-08-04, 09:38 AM | Irlina, goodbye, and I hope your departucher isen't a perminet one. MO, I would strongly caution Barbar against taking Leadership to gain a mount. If he takes it at level 6, there are 0 creatures in the MM with a LA and an Intelagence high enough to serve as a cohort that are ECL 4. Barbar should wait till 9th level, then he could choose between a Giant Eagle, Giant Owl, Pegasus, or Unicorn. However, they all have 4 HD or less, so he is better off crossclassing some ranks in Handel Animal. Since he has the skill on one of his class lists he can atain level +3 ranks in HA. At level 9 he could have a 17+ In HA easly. Take Charm Monster as a spell or buy a few scrolls and you could easly win a Monster fight to atain a 12HD animal, or a 7HD non-amimal mount. Either one is better than anything you could gain with leadership. The problem with leadership is the HD cap. Allies gain with it will always be AT LEAST 3 HD lower than the master, while all of the other methods of gaining allies allow them to be equal to or much greater in HD than there masters. Alowing Cohorts to advance wont help this problem, because the Cohort can't advance past the cap inposed by the leadership feat. Plus, if we did alow advancement, then we run into the problem you mentioned before MO, abut mods not being able to compair the creature to the MM. Checking an Advanced monster is even more difficult than checking a character, because diferint types of monsters evolve in different ways. Everyone knows how Clerics and Rangers advance, but not everyone knows exactly how a Beast or an Animal advances by HD. Off the top of my head I remember Animals get 2 + Int skillpoints per HD, MIN 1. So every animal gets 1 skill point per HD because they all have 2 or less INT. I remember they have BAB of a cleric, and Fort and Refx are favored saves, for most of them..... I can't remember the rest. I have no idea about beasts. So you see how it could be just as difficult to check an advanced monster as it would be to check a classed cohort. Anyway, the point I was orrigionaly trying to make is this. Under our current rules, No creature witout an LA can be a cohort. So any cohort will have at least LA 1. Also, a cohort must be at least 2 ECLs behind its master. This puts the maximum HD of a cohort at lest 3 behind its master, 4 at higher levels. If forced to take NON-classed creatures, tis will always limit cohorts to creaturs with challange ratings Of about 1/3 of there master. Meanwhile, the othere Methods of attaining allies alow much more powerfull allies to be attained. Leadership is already hamstrung by its own system for attaining cohorts, we shouldn't limit it farther by restricting the cohorts atainable. Even if we do allow classed cohorts, Leadership will still provide the weakest cohorts over all, at least untill the higest levels. At 6th level, I thought, "oh boy, I can get a cool monster allie." I looked through the MM at all the LA creatures and thought, "man, can't wait to take these guys into battle." I took leadership at 6th level, with a Cha of 21 I easly maxed out my cohort at 4th ECL. Then I looked through the book and found, a few monsrous humanoids, the best of which was the bugbear, and a cat, all Challange rating one. I went with a horse, 4HD, and challange rating 2. Of course, I couldn't cohort it due to its INT score, so I just bought it. At 7th level, the horse is still better than anything Candy could Cohort. At 8th, I might swap out for a Giant Eagle. It has slightly better to hit and damage, but no scent ability and less HP. And Since Candy can't ride it, the ability to Fly wont really help her much. It might be usefull against flying oponits though. So while Jindl rides his DireBat, with all the nifty animal companion tackons, and Iron rides into battle on his MegaRaptor, and Bruno commands his skellital giant, and Harvister rides his nightmare, Candy will have a big Eagle at 9th level. Oh, and if I wanted, I could advance my Eagle 1HD to be ECL 7.... now it has HD equal to a horse.... yeah. I wish now I had taken Grater Spell focus at 6th, and probably should have waited till 9th for leadership. Of course, by 12 level cohorts will be so far behind the curve as to be more of a hindrence in battle than a help. The rounds spent buffing and protecting your cohort could have been spent on yourself. At 12th level, Neutral or Goodguys have access to the mighty Griffon.... 7HD and Challange rating 4. The Evil guys could get the Griffon or the slightly better in my opinion Nightmare. It only has 6HD, but it has a few nifty abilitys that put it at CR 5. Still, by then CR 4s and 5s are just going to be target practice in the arena. Harvester is soon to have a Cauchemar mount of his own, which is ECL 19. It could never be atainable as a Cohort, becase at 20th level, cohorts Max out at ECL 17. |
| Moherajikuyx01-08-04, 09:38 AM | Estonia, you old... :drool: Irlina was losing coz he had better things to do! I will! Thanks, I hope you get back soon! MB - LA =0 are allowable cohorts. I think that having free allies is quite something. I don't know... Are you suggesting that the cohorts' calculation is based effectively on CL (instead than ECL)? CL=classes+racial HDs... |
| Arstimis01-08-04, 10:04 AM | As i said before, i really thing having cohorts or monsters is a hindrence to an arena. Its original purpose was to figure out how what the best character you can make. Now its whats the best character and allie. I wouldnt be surprised if it eventually becomes who can create the best party. I think we should just drop the whole allie thing, it makes no sense in a real arena, as battles are 1v1. Its how they are meant to be. Can anyone give me a reason as to why you need allies? |
| MotherBast01-08-04, 10:17 AM | ECL is HD + LA, and Leadership runs off ECL. As far as LA 0 creatures, that would be everything without a LA right? I'm not sure what kind of creatures this would make available. I made a list of everything with a LA, and orginazed it by ECL and alignment for Candy. I didn't include anything without an ECL because on the builds thread under leadership it says anything with a LA can be a cohort, and there are no LA 0 creatures, only NO LA or LA +1 and up. If creatures without LA are alowed, it will add to the list of options, but the creatures will still be limited by HD. As far as free goes, if we allowed the classed cohorts, they would hardly be free, as we would have to spend our own recorces to attain them. Also, The Handel Animal skill could gain a stronger allie, also for free. You used nothing in your fight with the MegaRaptor, and would have won it if powerattack would have been used. At 9th level, you would have gained an allie through Handel Animal for free, that leadership could not have attained untill 18th or 19th level, and that only if you invested in a 4k headband of intelect to increes the Raptors int score to 4 so you could make it a cohort. So handle animal would have allowed at 9th level an allie for free that Leadership couldn't grant untill 18th level, at the price of at least 4k. |
| Jindl01-08-04, 10:23 AM | Originally posted by MotherBast Before, I had it in my head that this was an arena, and it was supposed to be one on one. Today it occured to me, the arena is just a name. This is really about testing builds, and cohorts are a legitamit part of any build with the leadership feat. A lot of fights ran don't even take place in an arena anymore. The storyline is expanding, but even if it wasen't, this isen't a role-play thread, its a Min/Max thread, and we shouldn't allow the backdrop to limit the builds. @Arstimis - I think MotherBast said it very well. The arena is about testing builds. Indeed "arena" is just a name, its not really supposed to be a gladiatoral setting, merely just a predefined location to conduct comparisons of different build's strengths / weaknesses in combat. With that understanding, we must allow allies in order to evaluate builds like: druids, paladins, non-paladin mounted combatants, necromancers, thaumaturgists, or leadership based builds (like the buff your cohort clerics / wizards). In short, we are trying to limit allies to those which are an essential part of the build, and from this point of view, we have limited what types of allies we will allow. Of course it is still a work in progress, but that is the nature of this thread. -Jindl @Mo - Are you doing pairings for the level 9's ? Do I need to set Jindl and the Elder to ready? @MotherBast - If the level 9's are active, how about a challenge match between Jindl and Brackin? Having seen the druid's wrasslin skill (poor Ebelin), would Brackin care to give it a try? |
| MotherBast01-08-04, 10:26 AM | Arstimis, you are making the same error in thought I was orrigionaly making. Your confusing the backdrop of the arena with its purpose. The Arena is just the name of the thread. Its not really about arena style combat. Its really about testing Campagin viable builds. In a real arena, mounts and Animal companions would not be allowed at all. This, however, would pose unfair restrictions of classes like Druids, rangers, pallys and wiz/sorcs, who all gain a companion as part of there class abilitys. It would also make mounted character builds impossible. The point is, the whole arena backdrop is just that, mearly backdrop. It dosen't dictate what should and shouldn't be allowed, it is mearly a means to make the fights seem intresting, and alow us to place some limitations on them. If the builds eventualy grow to the point the arena can no longer contain them, we change the arena, not the builds. The arena itself always comes second. It is part of the storyline, and not the focus of the thread. As far as why allies should be allowed, the simple answer is because this thread is to test builds usable in campagins. In a campagin, a druid will always have his animal companion, a wizard will have his familure, a lance wilding charger will have his mount, a necromancer will have his undead, and high cha characters will likely have cohorts, if the DM approves the feat. Since they are staples in campagins, they should therefor be staples in the arena. |
| Magagumo01-08-04, 10:26 AM | Well, Artemis, a few of the classes (wizards, sorcerors, druids, and paladins) are getting allies for free, so we can't take those away without rendering the class hideously weakened. On the other hand, the leadership feat and ally-creating spells (animate dead, awaken animal/plant, etc.) were meant to be a possible alternative for other classes to gain friends. Now then, I think MB has made an excellent point in reference to monster ECL- if we aren't allowing class levels, then we have to work with the monsters out of the book. But if we want them to be suitable cohorts, we also cannot allow them to have more hp then the level cap. Think of it this way: A 6th level character can have a cohort with up to 5HD, so they could get an elite (25 pt. buy) human cleric of 5th level (considered a 5th character and a 5th CR by the rules). On the other hand, they might want a krenshar who would also count as a 5th level cohort, but because they can't give it levels, the 2 HD beast with 2 La can only gain one more HD (and thus remains a CR 1 or so)... if this krenshar were to be a CR 5, it would need to gain 3 HD per CR upgrade (as per advancing a magical beast). Now, this all being said, we need to consider the effects of eliminating class levels, and how this nerfs the feat's possible companions. Now, this is my alternative suggestion- The reason monsters gained LA, is because while a minotaur is only a CR 4 as an NPC, that is because his abilities will only rarely come into play (a party will kill/disable it before it gets too many powerful charges off, and its immunty to being flatfooted will only come into play for that fight.) But, if this minotaur were a player character, we would need to take into consideration how often that player can avoid being ambushed (never flat-footed) and how the player could easily navigate DM dungeons (never get lost) and even renders a powerful 8th level spell (mAze) inffective. Despite all these benefits, the minotaur still only has a LA 2 (because they aren't, that huge ;), check out the mind flayer if you want to see good reasons for an enormous LA... plane shift and astral projection at will, instant kill attack, mind blast at will... etc.) Back to my main point, the arena is not a place where all of a cohorts capabilites would be rendered utterly broken (a mind flayer cohort could certainly not abuse the astral projection or plane shift capabilites), so we should consider loosening the rules for cohorts. Now then, I think it would be extremely painful to have to wade through the various abilities to decide which would count or not, so I simply recommend we allow the cohorts to advance using the rules in the back. Gathered, this is a mixing of CR & ECL, but I believe it would allow monster cohorts to be more effective in combat if classes aren't going to be allowed (and remember, even monster cohorts get equipment and elite stats, so they will be better than the book versions). In the case of Candy's Krenshar, if we take the base ECL (4) and then add an appropriate number of HD (Taking into account if the creature grows to Large size or greater and adding +1 to the lvel for that), until it counts as a character of __th level (I don't know Candy's level exactly, MB), that might just work. Example: Krenshar- 2HD +2 LA= 4ECL --> 2 (Base HD) +4 LA (Large & 3 additional HD)= ECL 6 cohort I say we let Candy try this, and see if it doesn't improve non-classed cohorts a bit. |
| MotherBast01-08-04, 10:37 AM | Jindl, post a challange on the RP thread, it dosne't get used enough anymore. Brackin will post a responce. (Hint, its going to be yes.) Mag, Your calculations are a bit off. A 6th level character could only have a 4th level cohort. But anyway, let me see if I understand what your saying correctly. Are you suggesting we alter the creatures untill there Challange Rating is Equal to a classed character of the level atainable by Leadership? If so, I see the balance then shifting quite a bit twords leadership, as Candy could they have a 8HD Krenshar before it reached CR 5. (She is 7th level.) It would gain 2 CR per the 6 HD added, and another for growing large. It would also be clearly better than a classed cohort, and much harder to check than a classed cohort. Not to mention this would be houseruling leadership. I would still say that simply allowing Classed Cohorts is a much simpler solution. |
| Jindl01-08-04, 11:06 AM | Originally posted by MotherBast Jindl, post a challange on the RP thread, it dosne't get used enough anymore. Brackin will post a responce. (Hint, its going to be yes.) Okay, I'll write a challenge on the RP thread. But, go ahead and change the Ready section on Brackin's character sheet to reflect that my challenge is accepted. -Jindl |
| barrel_master01-08-04, 11:13 AM | Originally posted by SnarkHunter YO (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2270054#post2270054)! Fights up, not terribly flavorful but still easy on the eyes. I went pretty straightforward with Peter since I didn't recieve his tactics in time. @Cat: Weeeellllll....there is one other possibility. I think we can agree one 9th is prolly the equal of two 6th level char's. In which case we could add or remove someone to either side and it would probably be equal. Any volunteers?' @Mo: All my char's are ready, including 9th if we want to start this week. It was still more entertaining then most of my fights. |
| barrel_master01-08-04, 11:31 AM | Dear Moh, I made Octavian active this week as I thought Peter was gonna be delayed. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1498006#post1498006 |
| Moherajikuyx01-08-04, 11:33 AM | Yes, level nines are going to fight (or get thrown among the inactives... :devil: ) The discussion on classes is interesting, many opinions here. Seems we needed this time. Keep it coming guys. |
| Magagumo01-08-04, 11:52 AM | Can't debate with you on the complication, MB, I am just trying to offer alternatives. I would prefer we simply allow classed cohorts, it's more work, but I keep offering myself up as a Mod for these things... (also, it wasn't strict CR based, but rather adding to the current LA system, but disregarding the HD cap. IN other words, the standard krenshar counts as a 4th lvl character, and you would then adjudicate its level adjustment using CR/HD advancing rules- Add 2 HD to make it 5th lvl, (as adding 1 more HD would make it large size and thus becomes 6th lvl) then you add 3 more HD for 7th level, 3 more 8th level (at this point, it does have a better AB than most 8th level fighters, but lacks the equipment, feats and intelligence to make it outrageously dangerous) Hmm.. 2 or more levels lower.... whoops!. I've been running that wrong in my campaign (been allowing 1 lvl lower).. wonder if it got changed from 3.0? Hmm.. Lvl 9s are fighting this week? Count Bruno in, Moh, if you haven't set up the pairings, I'll just put Tony back on my sheet, and we'll be good to go. Hey Jindl, you need to vote on 19 & 20 ;) |
| MotherBast01-08-04, 12:05 PM | Ah, I see what your saying now Mag. Humm.... It does seem more balanced, but with some creatures it might not work, and It would mean your always better off taking a weaker creature and advancing it than you would be if you replaced your weak creature with a strong one. Plus, it would be as I mentiond, not only extreamly dificult for a Mod to check, but would be a house rule. I do like the system though, I wish I had thought of it. Class Levels are still the way to go I think though. |
| Elgonn01-08-04, 12:37 PM | Originally posted by MotherBast If the builds eventualy grow to the point the arena can no longer contain them, we change the arena, not the builds. The arena itself always comes second. It is part of the storyline, and not the focus of the thread. This isn't directly just at MotherBast. Plenty of people have been arguing back and forth about what cohorts, companions, etc.. But MotherBast's quote brings something up that I don't get about the current rule set. If the point of the arena really is testing builds then why limit 1 companion? I have played in many a campaign where a character could have many. In a recent druid build a friend had a pack of megaraptors. Is the pain and agony of running a difficult match with lots of people good enough reason to essentially remove certain builds from testing? Then further limiting companions for which aren't complex? I don't mean to change the ruleset. Or cause any arguments. It just seems specious to say only 1 companion, no classed cohorts, etc.... And then we shouldn't think of it as an arena but as a place for testing builds and the arena should change to fit it. Elgonn |
| Ethendril01-08-04, 12:48 PM | I think to understand that players who post less often (Arstimis, Ethendril for instance) are against the ally thing, and I want of course to consider their opinion too. Make yourselves be heard! I do have an opinion, but hate to say too much because I still haven't been the mod for a fight and have only been here for a month... Still, since you asked, here's my opinion: I basically agree with everything MotherBast says, except for the fact that I don't think allowing classed cohorts will fix everything. I still think that the cohorts Leadership or class-based companions allows will be FAR weaker than what a caster may obtain by putting animate dead in their spellbook or that someone else may obtain by taking some ranks in handle animal instead of jump. The other problem I see is that the casters are beating very tough monsters mostly because the monster can't attack them using the monster's conventional attacks (that cloud giant could have had five time the hit points and would still have been defeated). The major problem I see for a fighter is that the giant WILL be able to use those conventional attacks against him. What would normally take a party of four characters to bring down in a campaign will now go against a lone fighter...and all the while a caster will be slinging spells at him. I see that as a problem. I don't think allowing the fighters to have "advanced" versions to obtain through handle animal solves the problem, mainly because it makes handle animal skills more powerful than a feat or class abilities, and doesn't solve the problems of casters with allies more powerful than a melee character will be for ten levels. Anyway, my character won't be in the mix for a while, and I'm sure we'll work everything out. I just see this as a problem for a while until then. You asked for my opinion, so there's my 2 coppers. -Ethendril MB - LA =0 are allowable cohorts. I don't think this is core...3.5 DM's guide, pg 200 states that "If a creature in the Monster Manual doesn't have a level adjustment, this means we don't recommend using it as either a player character or a cohort." |
| MotherBast01-08-04, 01:10 PM | Elgonn, the 1 allie per fight limit was instituted to make life easer on the MODs. It does restrict certan builds, but a fight between a necromancer with 20 undead and a Bard with 20 followers would take a MOD more than 2 days to run, assuming the MOD isen't Snark and actually has a life. When I first joined the Arena, I volentired to run 3 fights a week. After running my 3 fights on the first week, which took me over 11 hours in total, I realized I would not have that much time every weekend. Now, I run 1 fight a week usually, and it rarely takes less than 4 hours, counting the time spent posting. A fight with 10 actions a round instead of 4 would be even longer, probably twice as long. The higher the level, the longer were looking at. So really, the 1 allie limit is a matter of practacality. It is necessary to make it possible to actually run the fights between Saterday, when the 2 days past parings is up, and Monday, when the fight post deadline is. |
| Jindl01-08-04, 01:56 PM | Jindl and the Elder are both ready, though the Elder volunteers to sit out for the Doesn't Fight Roll. @Mo - I should have 1 more credit, as I had 2 credits before last week, and ran 2 fights, so I should have 4 credits (not three). I can handle 2 fights for this round of pairings as well (need 6 credits for my new character ...) And now, off to vote on the polls thread :D -Jindl A quick wildshape question: When a druid wildshapes into a non-humanoid shaped form, his armor melds into his body. This means that any penalties from the armor no longer apply (like ACP's, medium encumbrance, max dex, etc.). Correct? |
| Arstimis01-08-04, 02:07 PM | Do you really think these classes would be seriously weakened by losing their allies. I personally think the class is hardly weakened by the lack of these allies. If a paladin can't survive without his mount you've got a really weak character in the first place. Same for the other classes. What is really hideously weakened is the fact a skill and/or spell(which is being used illegally as tharkos eplained) can give you a better ally than a feat. If you don't think the arena should be as a 1v1 battle, but to test builds, why do you limit it to only one ally. There are many builds that act as a battle comander and controls a lot of lower level cohorts. This is core because this is what leadership is for. That is one of the reasons it should be better than a skill or spell. If you think it may be to confusing and time consuming because of the numbers, you better get rid of summon monster. Having no allies, or even just class specific allies would make battles simpler I agree the arena is to check the power of a characters build, A, one, characters build, not the build of a cohort, or ally. Eventually if everything keeps heading in the direction it is, a players cohort will be able to take the enemy out itself. Edit: as someone pointed out If you really think no allies hinders classes, then I suggest the only cohorts allowed should be from classes, not skills, spells, or feats. Edit: Or if you think you need to allow it from skills, spells and feats, then don't houserule leadership and let it be used to its full potential, as what you say this arena is for You asked for my opinion, there it is Sorry for any typos, I am doing this on my phone during school. I started typing 3.5 hours ago, and between classes and service problems, I am just now able to post. So sorry for saying anything that was repeated. I will most likely respond when I get home in a couple hours. |
| Caterane01-08-04, 02:10 PM | Hey Jindl, why are you the arena champion again? There are 8 chars of equal level. I would say the first who hits lvl 20 os the champion and after that the one 20th level character with the best win/loss ratio. Ebelin Barnahdy Current arena champion |
| Jindl01-08-04, 02:14 PM | Re: The black onyx question from Animate Dead, Create Undead, and Create Greater Undead. Please read the following quote from the SRD: Material Component: You must place a black onyx gem worth at least 25 gp per Hit Die of the undead into the mouth or eye socket of each corpse you intend to animate. The magic of the spell turns these gems into worthless, burned-out shells. There are two ways to interpret the phrase "a black onyx gem worth at least 25 gp per Hit Die". The first is that they mean one large gem worth 25 gp x the Hit Dice. The second interpretation is a 25 gp gem for each of the Hit Dice. Based on the highlighted text, which says "these gems are turned into worthless...", it is clear that they are referring to multiple gems, which means the 2nd interpretation is correct. Now, there isn't any trouble finding 25 gp black onyx's, is there? -Jindl [EDIT] @Cat - Jindl remains the arena champion until somebody beats him. The fact that he waited 7 weeks for the rest of you schmoes to catch up with him, doesn't mean he isn't still the champion... Also, no way Ebelin can be the champion, what with him bumping his way up to 9th :P [EDIT2] Announces loudly, for any lurkers who may be listening ... YOU KNOW, IF FLUIDDRAGON WOULD REACTIVATE GAGE, HE COULD FACE OFF AGAINST RITO MAYA IN THE ONLY LEVEL 8 FIGHT THIS WEEK. THEN RITO WOULDN'T SIT OUT THIS WEEK, AND A LEVEL 9 WOULDN'T HAVE TO SIT OUT NEXT WEEK. AND IF GAGE WON, THEN HE WOULD TIE THE ELDER AND IRON FOR THE BEST RECORD AS THE ONLY 7-1 CHARACTERS ... |
| fluiddragon01-08-04, 02:40 PM | Originally posted by Jindl [EDIT2] Announces loudly, for any lurkers who may be listening ... YOU KNOW, IF FLUIDDRAGON WOULD REACTIVATE GAGE, HE COULD FACE OFF AGAINST RITO MAYA IN THE ONLY LEVEL 8 FIGHT THIS WEEK. THEN RITO WOULDN'T SIT OUT THIS WEEK, AND A LEVEL 9 WOULDN'T HAVE TO SIT OUT NEXT WEEK. AND IF GAGE WON, THEN HE WOULD TIE THE ELDER AND IRON FOR THE BEST RECORD AS THE ONLY 7-1 CHARACTERS ... Ok..ok..ok..ok... Gage is active. and ready to face Rito. I don't have alot of time if it is needed I could mod 1 low level fight, though I only have 1 character. -fd |
| Jindl01-08-04, 02:48 PM | Heh, I wonder if the same tactic could bring Alathar Vierce out of retirement? (Welcome back, Fluid) Iku Rex is ready btw... He has been liberated from the Lich Queen's service, and returns to the arena only to learn of the evil transgressions that occured whilst he was possessed by the fiends. He also learns that the paladin, Dusk the Adamant, is hunting him ... |
| Arstimis01-08-04, 03:05 PM | Originally posted by Jindl There are two ways to interpret the phrase "a black onyx gem worth at least 25 gp per Hit Die". The first is that they mean one large gem worth 25 gp x the Hit Dice. The second interpretation is a 25 gp gem for each of the Hit Dice. Based on the highlighted text, which says "these gems are turned into worthless...", it is clear that they are referring to multiple gems, which means the 2nd interpretation is correct. Now, there isn't any trouble finding 25 gp black onyx's, is there? -Jindl Actually I could argue in my favor. The fact it says " these gems are tuened into worthless..." Is refearing to multiple castings. I think you should look at where it says" you must place A gem worth at least 25 gp per HD of the undead into the mouth or eye socket of the corpse". This clearly means one gem as it mus be placed in 1 eye socket. Thanks for showing me that jindl, I hadn't actually read that, but it now grounds my stance on this subject |
| Jindl01-08-04, 03:12 PM | Check out the Create Undead spell. It works the same as animate dead, with a similar material component, only its a 50 gp gem per hit dice. So, if your interpretation was correct, then you would need a 700 gp black onyx to create a morhg. Since the spell specifically says you can create a morhg, and you claim that onyx's don't exist worth more than 80 gp, then it must mean multiple gems (which is why its plural). Indeed, there isn't a creature that is on the list for Create Undead, that requires less than 100 gp of black onyx, more than the 80 gp limit you claim exists. So, I suppose you would say that the spell is impossible? Or do you have a different explanation? -Jindl |
| Magagumo01-08-04, 03:25 PM | Interesting point on methods of killing giants, Ethendril, though I would argue (because it's fun :P) that the fighter would have an advantage over Bruno when it comes to fighting undead or constructs :D. Of course, a creature with high SR (raksasha, xill, nightwing) would also give the spellcasters an incredible run for their money :) Although the 1st turn PK ended the Harvester/ Bruno fight rather quickly, you should note that Crimson Sunrise was constantly a difficulty in my tactics (I'm glad you're snagging a nice Megaraptor, Moh, cause if Bruno had faced Iron with his wimpy horse, that thing was getting PKed real quick ;) Heck, even Monk-Bane is minorly vulnerable to that spell :)... which is, of course, the entire reason Bruno was created.. shame Greater Spell Focus (illusion) is a long way off...) Edit: Hi Fluid! |
| MotherBast01-08-04, 03:36 PM | Jindl, Brackin's response to your challange is posted. Also note, at 9th level Brackin has finaly chosen a color. He is now Teal unless it was already taken. Also, I belive Candy will be taking deep-pink as her color. I think she qualifies for one at 7th level right? |
| Magagumo01-08-04, 03:40 PM | @ Snark I thought about reviving the old RP board, and since the enmass fight is still in the works, there's no reason for a little lvl 9 friendly rivalry, is there? Unless, of course, some other being was particulary hell-bent on fighting the gnomish gnecromancer? |
| Caterane01-08-04, 03:53 PM | Mag, Crimson Sunrise will return... this time a gold one with 200' speed |
| Moherajikuyx01-08-04, 04:34 PM | Originally posted by fluiddragon Ok..ok..ok..ok... Gage is active. :D :smirk: :angel: :eek: :love: :king: :ayyyy!: :bump: :turkey: :drool: :thumbsup: About the multiple allies thing: one of the reasons the old arena died, was that many moderators left the higher fights after having to moderate a druid with a lot of animal companions (it was level 3, and it was Manfred Von Richtofen, my first arena pc and the first unscathed winner ever *giggles*) So, I really think it wouldn't be worth it, sorry guys. All the other opinions are welcome. It seems that the majority is for the "expanded allies", we'll check it with a poll within some days. Cat... You should really begin with thinking about the nightmare... :devil: |
| Ethendril01-08-04, 04:41 PM | I've been thinking a bit about the whole cohort issue (since Mo solicited opinions). It seems like there needs to be a more uniform system than "If you beat it you can have it." There will be problems until we do. I think we need to have a HD cap on the creatures. Obtain them however you want, but they have to meet the HD cap. Is this core? I think so. Does it matter whether onyx comes in chunks of 25 or 1000...maybe. But I think one factor we're forgetting in checking our builds here in the core arena is the fact that no DM would ever allow you to use these "builds" in a real campaign. We're focusing on whether something is "legal" using the core rules, but in the meantime, we're creating builds that will never see the light of day in the vast majority of campaigns (I'm referring to the cohort thing, still). No DM in his or her right mind would EVER allow you to have a cohort like the ones we're allowing and/or contemplating at this level. So, if the arena is here to see if something is "legal," then I guess we're on track. All of these things are probably "legal." But if we're in the "Core Arena Tournament - check your builds!" thread, where we see how our build holds up in a real campaign that follows the rules that most DMs would allow, we're going down the wrong path (and it will become worse). I know I've never seen any of these companions in campaigns I've participated in, and I've never seen anyone with the handle animal skill beat an animal to submission, only to have it faithfully serve him upon awakening. No DM would allow it. We need a uniform system that caps HD, not because the cohorts people have are "illegal" following the rules, but because these builds would never occur in a real campaign. -Ethendril |
| Jindl01-08-04, 04:55 PM | @Ethendril - I agree with where you're coming from, namely that the way Handle Animal is being used is not the way it would work in a campaign. But regarding HD caps - Leadership already has and follows a cap. Class feature allies (druids + pallys) have their own caps as well. Animate Dead and such have caps based on the spell. For Handle Animal the cap is based on your skill, as it requires a DC 15 +HD to rear an animal, and you take 10 on the check. For non-animals there is a -5 penalty on the roll, so since HD's are restricted by the skill check, there is a limit to how tough the creature could be. I am in favor of limiting the choices for handle animal to the non-advanced, non-templated creatures in the MM. Mainly its because in a campaign, you will not get the opportunity to rear one of these advanced beasties without express DM intervention. And really, how do you know that the megaraptor you are facing is the normal 8 hd variety, or is advanced and has 9 hd (within your handle animal skill range) or 10 hd (just beyond what you could rear)? Rearing a normal megaraptor, on the other hand, is as easy as laying your hands on some eggs. So, if you would prefer to think of it as defeating the parent to acquire the young for rearing, that's fine. But subdueing the parent and rearing it should be fine as well (it works in RL for wild horses and such). -Jindl |
| MotherBast01-08-04, 04:59 PM | Ethendril has a point. In a real campagin, several factors limit allies. For instance, the time required to rear that Megaraptor would be enough to make no "real" D&D character ever atempt it. But since glidators have unlimited time between fights they can rear one between two battles. This removes a balancing factor from the game. With undead, players arn't likely to walk around with a swarm of undead, or even a single undead, simply becase of the reactions of NPCs. They would quickly become a target of all the many many undead haters in the world. Even a good necromancer dosen't walk around with undead and expect not to be attacked on site at the city gate. Again, a limiting factor in the game is removed here, where characters don't have to worry about there undead allies attracting unwanted attention. But, on the other side of the argument, to impose a HD cap on allies might be going to far. A better idea might be to impose a Challange Rating cap. No allie may have a CR greater than his master -2. That keeps it inline with the limits on the leadership feat, and makes most of the allies existing right now still leagel, including the giant skelly and a normal megaraptor. Allies gained through class abilitys would be the exception to this rule, as they already have guidelines regulating there growth. By insuring the CL of the allie is always a couple of levels behind the master, it would also insure the master is always the star of the show, and prevent a lot of allie abuse. It would also help to counteract many of the in-game balancing issues with these skills and spells that don't exist in the arena setting. |
| Ethendril01-08-04, 05:04 PM | But, on the other side of the argument, to impose a HD cap on allies might be going to far. A better idea might be to impose a Challange Rating cap. Yeah, I'm all for this, too (this is actually closer to what I was trying to say). I just think that when the cohort is more powerful than the character, there's a problem. I don't care how we accomplish it, but it needs to be done. No DM would allow your cohort to be more powerful than you are, at least. -Ethendril |
| Arstimis01-08-04, 05:10 PM | now that i am home and have had a better chance to look at the spells and whatnot, i do agree with you Jindl, or else, as you said, the spell would be impossible. After reading the responses i know that 99% of the people here will not give up on having allies, and i like Ethendril's proposal, but i think MotherBast's put it in better words. No cohort may have a CR greater than its master -2. |
| Ethendril01-08-04, 05:12 PM | @ Jindl: But regarding HD caps- Leadership already has and follows a cap. Class feature allies (druids + pallys) have their own caps as well. Animate Dead and such have caps based on the spell. I see what you're saying, too. That's why I said that I think all the cohorts are "legal" and follow appropriate rules, but are not in keeping with the flavor of the game and what a real DM would allow in a real campaign. The whole ally thing in a campaign is ALL up to the DM. You can never min/max your ally. What the DM giveth, the DM taketh away, and if your ally is more powerful that you are, your ally would be taken away quickly. I'm not arguing about whether we are following core rules (we probably are), but about the fact that the DM controls all this and wouldn't allow a lot of what we're doing. -Ethendril |
| Jindl01-08-04, 05:22 PM | You do realize that CR's are almost always lower than HD? And as already explained, Leadership limits the HD of cohorts (indeed, it limits the ECL, which is higher than the CR.) So, there's no way a cohort could ever be more powerful than the PC. This is not necessarily the case for Handle Animal. Opening that skill up to advanced or templated creatures can result in an ally more powerful than the PC. But, if we limit the skill to normal, unadvanced monsters, then you will not be able to use Handle Animal to get a more powerful companion than the PC. As for animated dead, it depends on the campaign. In an evil underdark campaign it may be fine for the PC's to walk around with a skeleton bodyguard. But these allies are still capped by what you can defeat on your own (while in a campaign they are capped by what your party can slay). As for using CR's ... please show me one example where the CR of the creature is greater than the ECL. Leadership alreadly limits the ECL to character level -2, so since CR is less than ECL, the CR is already limited to being below the character level -2. -Jindl [EDIT] @ Ethendril - Of the three examples you quoted (leadership, druid/pally allies, and animate dead), Leadership is the only one that requires DM approval. Animal companions / special mounts advance per the rules of the class, and I think every DM would allow the player to determine what feats / ability scores his class feature companion gains upon advancing. As for animate dead, it is player determined by what monsters you hunt / kill / animate. Sure, the DM can turn it into an adventure, but as long as you're looking for a normal creature (read a non-advanced / non-templated creature), then the PC will eventually hunt one down to attack. But Cohorts do have a lot of DM input in their creation. The DMG says the player gets to recruit a specific race / class / alignment combination, but that the DM has final say of stats, feats, skills, etc. But that form of leadership also means the cohort comes in with his own wealth / equipment. Since we do not have a DM to handle this aspect, we trade the ability to min-max the feats/skills/stats to the player, but in return the cohort has no wealth of his own and all equipment must be provided by the PC. I think this is a fair trade, given the circumstances. As yet, Leadership is proving to be the weakest of the ally gaining methods. Hopefully, making it the only way to gain advanced or classed allies will undue this inadequacy. -Jindl |
| Moherajikuyx01-08-04, 05:40 PM | Hmm.. Still, even if we allow only normal things to handleds, one could get magic beasts; the +5 to DC is not a huge penalty, if one minmaxes for that. Of course this could be not-an-issue, since this is the minmax board. What examples are there of low-HD high-CR magical beasts? To keep this in check, what about, instead than allowing classed cohorts - which makes life harder to moderators, and is heavily debated - we decide for a "minimalist" houserule (let's face, that will be a houserule, in a way or in the other) like adding the same HD cap of leadership to skills and spells? This could be a sensed start point. |
| Ethendril01-08-04, 05:42 PM | But these allies are still capped by what you can defeat on your own Well, in my mind, there is no cap on this spell. A wizard could kill any massive creature (giant, whatever) with low enough saves or spot/listen checks, and then use it to pulverize the fighters it can see in the next battle. As for using CR's ... please show me one example where the CR of the creature is greater than the ECL. Leadership alreadly limits the ECL to character level -2, so since CR is less than ECL, the CR is already limited to being below the character level -2. I don't care if it's HD, CR, or ECL, as long as there's a cap (which I don't believe there is because the right character can defeat VERY powerful creatures). [Now you've done it, Jindl and Mo...you've made me get into a discussion about this when I didn't want to. I've only been on the boards for a month, still haven't been the mod for a fight, and I'm not sure what I'm talking about. I'm just expressing my opinion as I see it, but I guess I'm not sure if I've been around long enough to have a fully-developed opinion.] EDIT: [All I have is a warhorse...I'm getting out before I get too deep.] |
| Moherajikuyx01-08-04, 06:02 PM | Originally posted by Ethendril [Now you've done it, Jindl and Mo...you've made me get into a discussion about this when I didn't want to. I've only been on the boards for a month, still haven't been the mod for a fight, and I'm not sure what I'm talking about. I'm just expressing my opinion as I see it, but I guess I'm not sure if I've been around long enough to have a fully-developed opinion.] :thumbsup: no worry! Jindl looks mean, but he's only somewhat alien :P Anyways, I always say I want to hear the opinions of the less experienced ones, because 1. I really do 2. they have to be "defended" on my opinion, from the more present guys, who usually are moderators. Speaking of which, it just happened on my mind, that the players could not like the last change with the rules about credits for ECL: with it, while they have to deal with a 1 HD pc in case they use a LA +1, the moderators don't, which is a HUGE injustice on my opinion. Jindl, and the others who asked for this, can you suggest a more correct way please? |
| fluiddragon01-08-04, 06:19 PM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx [BSpeaking of which, it just happened on my mind, that the players could not like the last change with the rules about credits for ECL: with it, while they have to deal with a 1 HD pc in case they use a LA +1, the moderators don't, which is a HUGE injustice on my opinion. Jindl, and the others who asked for this, can you suggest a more correct way please? [/B] I wasn't involved in this discussion so I'll venture an opinion. I think there is a big difference in the amount of time a mod puts in and a regular player. I don't plan on runing a ecl/credit character but I don't mind if others do. If you are investing a large portion of your free time here and modding extra fights so others can fight without having to devote any extra time to the board a little perk is fine. I also think some of the drawbacks with LA races evens out any advantages they get, so giving the mods alittle break here I think is a nice touch. Plus it will lead to some interesting characters. -fd |
| MotherBast01-08-04, 06:25 PM | When refering to the CR of master's level less 2, I was refering to a cap for allies atained by spells and skills Jindl. Cohorts already face the same cap, as no creature atainable by leadership has an ECL less than its challange rating. What I was suggesting was limiting Undead and Handled animals to the same Chalange Rating limit Leadership already has, and then allowing classed cohorts, so they could have cohorts of maxed CR, and the three mothods would then become equal in terms of allie power. [edit] I just read MO's suggestion, which is to make all allies (with the exception of class feature allies I assume) have to fit into the ECL restrictions of the leadership feat. While this would put things in balence, it would be by weakining everything greatly. At 9th level, an undead would be limited to 7HD, as skells and zombies have no LA. 7HD skells and vombies are a cakewalk for anyone who can swing a sword with any skill at all. 7HD animals aren't much better. This makes every allie as bad as the currently available cohorts. It would indeed be a minimilist action to take. |
| Jindl01-08-04, 07:40 PM | What follows is a complete list of all available creatures which may be reared according to Handle Animal. The name, hit dice, challenge rating, rearing DC, and Handle Animal skill modifier necessary, are all listed. This list includes all non-advanced, non-templated creatures. Mo, please link to this list in the allies rules for Handle Animal. The purpose of this list was to illustrate that if we do not allow templated or advanced handled animals, then it is not possible to get a handled animal ally that is too powerful for your character level. The only creatures that have CR's greater than their hit dice are: carrion crawlers, pyro/cryo hydras, phantom fungus, and spider eaters. All of these are non-animals and thus have a handle animal DC to rear of 20 + hit dice. If you have doubts, take a look at the skill DC's needed for each creature, and think about what level of character would have that modifier in the skill. Iron the Panza currently has a handle animal skill of +15 (the highest among all active characters), and as a level 9 character, he could get at most a CR 7 creature (Elasmosaurus). If you think this is an appropriate power level for Handle Animal allies, then please go to the polls thread and vote to allow only non-advanced, non-templated creatures for #20b. Handle Animal potential Allies: Ankheg, 3HD magical beast (Int 1),CR 3, rear DC 23 = +13 Handle Animal skill Basilisk, 6HD magical beast (Int 2), CR 5, rear DC 26 = +16 Handle Animal skill Bulette, 9HD magical beast (Int 2), CR 7, rear DC 29 = +19 Handle Animal skill Carrion Crawler, 3HD aberration (Int 1), CR 4, rear DC 23 = +13 Handle Animal skill Cockatrice, 5HD magical beast (Int 2), CR 3, rear DC 25 = +15 Handle Animal skill Darkmantle, 1HD magical beast (Int 2), CR 1, rear DC 21 = +11 Handle Animal skill Digester, 8HD magical beast (Int 2), CR 6, rear DC 28 = +18 Handle Animal skill Deinonychus, 4HD animal, CR 3, rear DC 19 = +9 Handle Animal skill Elasmosaurus, 10HD animal, CR 7, rear DC 25 = +15 Handle Animal skill Megaraptor, 8HD animal, CR 6, rear DC 23 = +13 Handle Animal skill Triceratops, 16HD animal, CR 9, rear DC 31 = +21 Handle Animal skill Tyrannosaurus, 18HD animal, CR 8, rear DC 33 = +23 Handle Animal skill Dire Ape, 5HD animal, CR 3, rear DC 20 = +10 Handle Animal skill Dire Badger, 3HD animal, CR 2, rear DC 18 = +8 Handle Animal skill Dire Bat, 4HD animal, CR 2, rear DC 19 = +9 Handle Animal skill Dire Bear, 12HD animal, CR 7, rear DC 27 = +17 Handle Animal skill Dire Boar, 7HD animal, CR 4, rear DC 22 = +12 Handle Animal skill Dire Lion, 8HD animal, CR 5, rear DC 23 = +13 Handle Animal skill Dire Rat, 1HD animal, CR 1/3, rear DC 16 = +6 Handle Animal skill Dire Shark, 18HD animal, CR 9, rear DC 33 = +23 Handle Animal skill Dire Tiger, 16HD animal, CR 8, rear DC 31 = +21 Handle Animal skill Dire Weasel, 3HD animal, CR 2, rear DC 18 = +8 Handle Animal skill Dire Wolf, 6HD animal, CR 3, rear DC 21 = +11 Handle Animal skill Dire Wolverine, 5HD animal, CR 4, rear DC 20 = +10 Handle Animal skill Frost Worm, 14HD magical beast (Int 2), CR 12, rear DC 34 = +24 Handle Animal skill Girallon, 7HD magical beast (Int 2), CR 6, rear DC 27 = +17 Handle Animal skill Gorgon, 8HD magical beast (Int 2), CR 8, rear DC 28 = +18 Handle Animal skill Hippogriff, 3HD magical beast (Int 2), CR 2, rear DC 23 = +13 Handle Animal skill 5 headed Hydra, 5HD magical beast (Int 2), CR 4 (add 2 for pyro/cryo), rear DC 25 = +15 Handle Animal skill 6 headed Hydra, 6HD magical beast (Int 2), CR 5 (add 2 for pyro/cryo), rear DC 26 = +16 Handle Animal skill 7 headed Hydra, 7HD magical beast (Int 2), CR 6 (add 2 for pyro/cryo), rear DC 27 = +17 Handle Animal skill 8 headed Hydra, 8HD magical beast (Int 2), CR 7 (add 2 for pyro/cryo), rear DC 28 = +18 Handle Animal skill 9 headed Hydra, 9HD magical beast (Int 2), CR 8 (add 2 for pyro/cryo), rear DC 29 = +19 Handle Animal skill 10 headed Hydra, 10HD magical beast (Int 2), CR 9 (add 2 for pyro/cryo), rear DC 30 = +20 Handle Animal skill 11 headed Hydra, 11HD magical beast (Int 2), CR 10 (add 2 for pyro/cryo), rear DC 31 = +21 Handle Animal skill 12 headed Hydra, 12HD magical beast (Int 2), CR 11 (add 2 for pyro/cryo), rear DC 32 = +22 Handle Animal skill Owlbear, 5HD magical beast (Int 2), CR 4, rear DC 25 = +15 Handle Animal skill Phantom Fungus, 2HD plant (Int 2), CR 3, rear DC 22 = +12 Handle Animal skill Purple Worm, 16HD magical beast (Int 1), CR 12, rear DC 36 = +26 Handle Animal skill Roc, 18HD animal, CR 9, rear DC 33 = +23 Handle Animal skill Rust Monster, 5HD aberration (Int 2), CR 3, rear DC 25 = +15 Handle Animal skill Sea Cat, 6HD magical beast (Int 2), CR 4, rear DC 26 = +16 Handle Animal skill Shocker Lizard, 2HD magical beast (Int 2), CR 2, rear DC 22 = +12 Handle Animal skill Spider Eater, 4HD magical beast (Int 2), CR 5, rear DC 24 = +14 Handle Animal skill Stirge, 1HD magical beast (Int 1), CR 1/2, rear DC 21 = +11 Handle Animal skill Ape, 4HD animal, CR 2, rear DC 19 = +9 Handle Animal skill Baboon, 1HD animal, CR 1/2, rear DC 16 = +6 Handle Animal skill Badger, 1HD animal, CR 1/2, rear DC 16 = +6 Handle Animal skill Bat, 1/4HD animal, CR 1/10, rear DC 15 = +5 Handle Animal skill Black Bear, 3HD animal, CR 2, rear DC 18 = +8 Handle Animal skill Brown Bear, 6HD animal, CR 4, rear DC 21 = +11 Handle Animal skill Polar Bear, 8HD animal, CR 4, rear DC 23 = +13 Handle Animal skill Bison, 5HD animal, CR 2, rear DC 20 = +10 Handle Animal skill Boar, 3HD animal, CR 2, rear DC 18 = +8 Handle Animal skill Camel, 3HD animal, CR 1, rear DC 18 = +8 Handle Animal skill Cat, 1/2HD animal, CR 1/4, rear DC 15 = +5 Handle Animal skill Cheetah, 3HD animal, CR 2, rear DC 18 = +8 Handle Animal skill Crocodile, 3HD animal, CR 2, rear DC 18 = +8 Handle Animal skill Giant Crocodile, 7HD animal, CR 4, rear DC 22 = +12 Handle Animal skill Dog, 1HD animal, CR 1/3, rear DC 16 = +6 Handle Animal skill Riding Dog, 2HD animal, CR 1, rear DC 17 = +7 Handle Animal skill Donkey, 2HD animal, CR 1/6, rear DC 17 = +7 Handle Animal skill Eagle, 1HD animal, CR 1/2, rear DC 16 = +6 Handle Animal skill Elephant, 11HD animal, CR 7, rear DC 26 = +16 Handle Animal skill Hawk, 1HD animal, CR 1/3, rear DC 16 = +6 Handle Animal skill Heavy Horse, 3HD animal, CR 1, rear DC 18 = +8 Handle Animal skill Light Horse, 3HD animal, CR 1, rear DC 18 = +8 Handle Animal skill Heavy Warhorse, 4HD animal, CR 2, rear DC 19 = +9 Handle Animal skill Light Warhorse, 3HD animal, CR 1, rear DC 18 = +8 Handle Animal skill Hyena, 2HD animal, CR 1, rear DC 17 = +7 Handle Animal skill Leopard, 3HD animal, CR 2, rear DC 18 = +8 Handle Animal skill Lion, 5HD animal, CR 3, rear DC 20 = +10 Handle Animal skill Lizard, 1/2HD animal, CR 1/6, rear DC 15 = +5 Handle Animal skill Monitor Lizard, 3HD animal, CR 2, rear DC 18 = +8 Handle Animal skill Manta Ray, 4HD animal, CR 1, rear DC 19 = +9 Handle Animal skill Monkey, 1HD animal, CR 1/6, rear DC 16 = +6 Handle Animal skill Mule, 3HD animal, CR 1, rear DC 18 = +8 Handle Animal skill Octopus, 2HD animal, CR 1, rear DC 17 = +7 Handle Animal skill Giant Octopus, 8HD animal, CR 8, rear DC 23 = +13 Handle Animal skill Owl, 1HD animal, CR 1/4, rear DC 16 = +6 Handle Animal skill Pony, 2HD animal, CR 1/4, rear DC 17 = +7 Handle Animal skill War Pony, 2HD animal, CR 1/2, rear DC 17 = +7 Handle Animal skill Porpoise, 2HD animal, CR 1/2, rear DC 17 = +7 Handle Animal skill Rat, 1/4HD animal, CR 1/8, rear DC 15 = +5 Handle Animal skill Raven, 1/4HD animal, CR 1/6, rear DC 15 = +5 Handle Animal skill Rhinoceros, 8HD animal, CR 4, rear DC 23 = +13 Handle Animal skill Medium Shark, 3HD animal, CR 1, rear DC 18 = +8 Handle Animal skill Large Shark, 7HD animal, CR 2, rear DC 22 = +12 Handle Animal skill Huge Shark, 10HD animal, CR 4, rear DC 25 = +15 Handle Animal skill Constrictor Snake, 3HD animal, CR 2, rear DC 18 = +8 Handle Animal skill Giant Constrictor Snake, 11HD animal, CR 5, rear DC 26 = +16 Handle Animal skill Tiny Viper Snake, 1/4HD animal, CR 1/3, rear DC 15 = +5 Handle Animal skill Small Viper Snake, 1HD animal, CR 1/2, rear DC 16 = +6 Handle Animal skill Medium Viper Snake, 2HD animal, CR 1, rear DC 17 = +7 Handle Animal skill Large Viper Snake, 3HD animal, CR 2, rear DC 18 = +8 Handle Animal skill Huge Viper Snake, 6HD animal, CR 3, rear DC 21 = +11 Handle Animal skill Squid, 3HD animal, CR 1, rear DC 18 = +8 Handle Animal skill Giant Squid, 12HD animal, CR 9, rear DC 27 = +17 Handle Animal skill Tiger, 6HD animal, CR 4, rear DC 21 = +11 Handle Animal skill Toad, 1/4HD animal, CR 1/10, rear DC 15 = +5 Handle Animal skill Weasel, 1/2HD animal, CR 1/4, rear DC 15 = +5 Handle Animal skill Baleen Whale, 12HD animal, CR 6, rear DC 27 = +17 Handle Animal skill Cachalot Whale, 12HD animal, CR 7, rear DC 27 = +17 Handle Animal skill Orca, 9HD animal, CR 5, rear DC 24 = +14 Handle Animal skill Wolf, 2HD animal, CR 1, rear DC 17 = +7 Handle Animal skill Wolverine, 3HD animal, CR 2, rear DC 18 = +8 Handle Animal skill |
| Mercy01-08-04, 08:21 PM | @Mo - I don't know if I'm to late or not but Targ is ready for the 7/1 fights. I can also mod this week. |
| cellardweller01-08-04, 08:47 PM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx About the multiple allies thing: one of the reasons the old arena died, was that many moderators left the higher fights after having to moderate a druid with a lot of animal companions (it was level 3, and it was Manfred Von Richtofen, my first arena pc and the first unscathed winner ever *giggles*) <involuntary shudder> ;) Re: HD limit on skeletons/animals I am in favour of limiting both of these to HD - I beleive it is in line with what should be the relative power levels of allie attraction methods. In order to allow these companions to scale without having multiple monster fights, they should allowed to advance (including post-humous) but only after they have become a companion. Re: Classed companions It seems one of the major concers about classed/advanced companions is the pre-fight checks. The simple solution to this is to take the onus off the moderator to verify the character and cohort. It is in the best interests of the opponent to ensure that the build is legit, so why not let them do the checking? |
| Magagumo01-08-04, 09:39 PM | Um.. why is it that everyone is trying to weaken creatures that have never proven themselves to be overpowered? Crimson Sunrise?- Nope, I've seen Monkbane do nastier things than that rotten old zombie. Tony? Maybe, but we haven't seen him in action. What I think we are seeing here is an subconscious fear of the powerful cohorts, but this is only rational when the people who are voting for the nerfing of these creatures have never actually fought them. Consider this, Cat, myself, and Snark are the only ones who have faced off vs. Skeleton//zombie owners (Moon-moon vs. hill giant skel, Bruno vs. Cat's zombie, Ebelin vs. Iron's dragon), but you don't see any of us complaining of them being overpowered... we all were able to deal with them in some way (Bruno-focus on owner, Ebelin forced Iron to protect against Control Undead, Moon-moon- power attack/ride-by attack hill giant). If you are cunning and build strong characters, then these skels should not be an issue for you... believe me. I'd thought we had gotten over the issue with skels/zombies, because this is getting ridiculous. It has never been a true issue, and people just keep bringing it up for no real good reason that I've seen. As for the Handle Animal issue, I think Jindl's right, we probably should limit it to base creatures. As for cohorts, eliminating their cash makes it pointless to use them. Unless you DM is absolutely dead-set on ******* his players off, he generally makes a decently built cohort (No Barbarians with the majority fo points in Int, Cha, Wis, or Wizards with Power attack and weapon focus (dagger)), giving them good equipment and probably a decent way to be effective in the campaign. In my game, my paladin has an alienist sorceress, and you can bet I gave her a cloak of charisma, as well as bracers of armor and other essential tools (right out of the NPC section in the DMG, folks). I left the rest of the cash for my player to spend as he thought would aid her, and he did so (I did not allow him to use her cash to make him more powerful). Now, if I had given her to him "naked," she would have been rather ineffective, and a major drain on his resources. As it is, we arent giving these cohorts winnings in the arena (you'll note they are to get a half share of loot in a normal campaign), so not giving them any starting cash is ridiculous. I guess I have to admit it, this is starting to tick me off... we really need to stop gabbing on & on about this and actually test it. In summary- HD caps on skels and class companions is foolish and completed against the meaning of Core . -Cohorts are a touchy issue, but if we are not proving ome rule for advancing monster cohorts in a way that does not cripple them, then we need to allow class levels and suffer with the fact that other people are allowed to have friends. (As I recall, I tend to get tactics for Jindl and Nox, Moon-moon & Monk-bane, Elder and Bubo ;), but this has not been an issue. So why are we complaining when we allow other people to get cohorts besides through class features?) |
| cellardweller01-08-04, 10:07 PM | Originally posted by Magagumo I'd thought we had gotten over the issue with skels/zombies, because this is getting ridiculous. It has never been a true issue, and people just keep bringing it up for no real good reason that I've seen. Under the cost method that was voted on a storm giant would have cost 36100. Under the fight system, it is suddenly free and hence an issue again. |
| Magagumo01-08-04, 10:31 PM | Hmm.. well it wasnt that easy, I assure you, and it wont be happening for a long time (Storm Giant's are scary, and Titans ain't happening). Also, forcing me to fight that giant actually limits my options, since I have no chance vs. things with flying... *shrug* I can believe it looked easy for me to kill that guy, but he only had to make one or two of those saves (he had a 40% to do so, so nothing was guarenteed) nd I was in serious trouble. Take a look at my tactics if the PK failed... I was going to have o spend 28 rounds chill touching him, and you better believe his rocks would have dropped me before then. Necromancers are very hit-or-miss with their saves. Let someone fight we with Rony by my side, then determine if the CR 7 skel in the 9th, 10th, 11th etc fight makes me overpowered. Give him a chance is all I ask. Oh and that cost method was too much, sorry to tell you. |
| Elgonn01-08-04, 10:36 PM | Actually the companion that I believe will break the current system is one that is barely acheivable now. Eniolissaryn only at the moment (but not on his spell list). Dominate Person/Monster Way better "pet" than any other class ability, skill, feat, spell. Hell take one of the other arena characters as your pet. Elgonn [EDIT] Example: Eniolissaryn could easily get a Werewolf Lord. 16 HD 14 CR 19 ECL Core MM 3.5 |
| MotherBast01-08-04, 11:12 PM | Elgonn, A warewolf lord has more than 2 INT, so it couldn't be reared with a skill, and it would just be another skelaton if killed, so even though the Elder could easly win a monster fight with Dominate Monster, he couldn't attain the creature as an allie, becase no permanet effect would be in place to keep the WW on his side. No spell with a duration could be used to attain an allie due to the vast amount of time that is assumed to pass between fights, (enought time to craft 100k magic items and rear wild animals), a second or third or forth casting of the spell would be required, and no roles are allowed outside of the arena. Therefore, no domanated allies. Only permanet effects. Mag, after reviewing Jindl's list, I am convinced that simply not allowing advancement is good enough for limiting Handle Animal. As Far as undead go, right now I dont see any allies that are higher CR than a classed cohort could be. The problem, as I have said before, is that we don't allow classed cohorts. This means at level 9, the highest CR a cohort could be is 3, compaired to 7 for animals and undead. 7 is also the CR of a maxed out classed cohort for a 9th level character. So, leadership takes an unfair, and unbalencing penalty. If we allowed classed cohorts, everything would be balanced again. If we don't allow classed cohorts, then something should be done to restrict the other methods of aquiring an allie as well, to keep them balanced with leadership. On a completly different note, I have created my 3rd gladiator at last. I have yet to mark him ready. Perhapse someone could review him for correctness. Jindl espically might want to check him out, as his background is strongly influenced by Jindl the druid. |
| Elgonn01-08-04, 11:21 PM | @MotherBast No permanent effect? Perhaps you haven't noticed that unless someone helps that werewolf lord he is permanently dominated. He will never escape ever. Domination is game over. You can renew it forever. Also a werewolf lord is humanoid. Dominate person works. It can be cast now. Elgonn [Edit] Technically this pet would require a pre-buff loss of a spell slot. |
| Jindl01-08-04, 11:53 PM | Originally posted by MotherBast On a completly different note, I have created my 3rd gladiator at last. I have yet to mark him ready. Perhapse someone could review him for correctness. Jindl espically might want to check him out, as his background is strongly influenced by Jindl the druid. I like the background story :D I should point out that your alignment should be Lawful (if you plan on advancing any further as a monk.) Also, you have 4 more pts to buy stats with (36 pt buy, and I count only 32 so far.) If you are gonna be wildshaped alot, then I would suggest putting those points in Int as druids have a very good skill list. If you are not gonna be wildshaped much, then Dex is a good option for those points, as you will constantly be unarmored. I would also suggest a better ranged attack than your sling (whether its a scroll: flaming sphere, or some javelins, or whatever). If you succeed at an entangle, you need a way to damage them without walking into the spell effect. Jindl used summon swarms for this, but you could just as easily use flaming sphere, or simple ranged weapons. At low levels, druids excel at hindering their opponents mobility. Combine this with area of effect or touch attacks, and it gets easy. Just watch out for the paladins... -Jindl |
| Pitlords01-09-04, 05:12 AM | uff! |
| Moherajikuyx01-09-04, 05:20 AM | Originally posted by Magagumo Oh and that cost method was too much, sorry to tell you. And approved by majority :P Fluid's comment about a perk more for moderators doesn't convince me. If one moderates to have a perk more over the other players, he's not worth on my opinion. I moderate to have fun. So until there is a decent proposal, no moderator can have 2 class HD LA>0 pcs. Note: don't complain please, post a proposal... Seeing the animals list (great work: if you did it with a script, Jindl, would you add size?), it happened on my mind that animals increase in CR way slower than in HDs (what's that, 1:2?) So, I really don't understand what's the problem in making them advanced: one is always better off with a more powerful animal. Example: I'd rather have a Dire Bear (CR 7, 12 HD) than an advanced Dire Boar (7 HD->12 HD). Of course, this works if we limit advancement to not let things grow in size. |
| Rosella01-09-04, 05:56 AM | I AM new here, so I might be mistaken, but isn't 7/1 the same as the 7th of January? my computer already reads 9/1 and still no pairings :weep: Not that I want to complain, but I came here to test my combat prowess :fight!: |
| Pitlords01-09-04, 07:12 AM | And pairings are under course! |
| Moherajikuyx01-09-04, 08:03 AM | Color spray! PAIRINGS DONE! |
| MotherBast01-09-04, 08:07 AM | Elgonn, no form of dominate is permanit. 1 day/level. So, the spell would have to be recast during the time between fights, as much more time goes by than 9 days. The arena has a rule that no dice may be rolled outside of the arena. So, if you dominate the person/monster, and you wish to renew the spell, you would need to recast it. This would mean the person/creature gets a new save. Since the new save would require a roll, which wouldn't be allowed, you simply could not renew the spell. Also, it just occured to me that when Candess suggested she wanted to try and win fights with Dominate/Suggestion/Charm and simmaler spells, it was ruled the fight would not end untill the opponit was dead, so basicly I could use the spell as a delay tactic, but would still have to kill my oponit before the fight ended, so the effect of the spell would end with my oponit's death. It would be the same situation with the WWlord I'm afraid. The only way he could get a chance to cast the spell would be in a monster fight, which wouldn't end till the wolf or he was dead under current rules. Even if that was changed, however, the no rolls outside the arena policy would still prevent domanated allies. |
| MotherBast01-09-04, 08:13 AM | MO, Drakiel was not ready. He is incomplete at the moment. I would be willing to fight this week if Cat wouldn't mind me finishing the character before the actuall fight. As Drakiel is now, he has unspent points, and gold left to spend. Also, I notice I have 3 fights this week. Today is Friday, and I have to work sunday, so I would suggest that everyone send me your tactics TODAY, because I absolutly must start running the fights tomarrow if I am to finish by Monday. I would hate to see us continue this cycle of delays we have fallen into. |
| Magagumo01-09-04, 08:46 AM | 3:1 ratio, actually Moh :P. Of course, growing to Large size or higher also adds a CR, but you've hit the nail on the head when you point out the superior power of the dire bear to an advanced Dire Boar. I suppose it all comes down to what you personally want in a companion (since growing animals is not stipulatedin druidic cohorts, this whole discussion is really for DMs to throw big animals vs. their players :-P). Elephantine boars (i.e. Princess Mononoke) have a certain style IMO :D Bah, if you really want to mess a high-level party up, you go with the legendary animals from MMII/Masters of the Wild (3.5 update does a decent job updating them, though giving something Toughness (x7) before you give it Weapon Focus (natural attack) is a bit of a cop out on their part ;)) Yea, if only they had legendary boars... that would be pretty sweet ^_~ On the note of pairings, I will try and get tactics to Cat today, and I will be running my fight Sunday or Monday, once I return to school. Feel free to send those tactics on up, boyos, I'll be with ya shortly ;) |
| Moherajikuyx01-09-04, 10:25 AM | Mag - yes, that's why I say "advance till an HD before growing in size". Thanks for adding the keyword on the polls thread... Now the last thing would be to make it the first word of the speech... Come on... I read it anyways, but that way I count the votes faster. Please, everyone, make the yes/no/abstain(/ban for 19) the first word of any vote. MB - darn! I hope Cat accepts, after all it's a lvl 2. Everyone - I know it's partially my fault, but let's try to get back to wednesdays (tactics), fridays (begin fights) and mondays (end fights)! I have two gaming groups this week and a climb on the Alps... But who cares! Sleeping is for the weak. BTW, climbing should have sinergy bonus from balance and jump, and be Con based. *goes to write tactics...* |
| MotherBast01-09-04, 10:36 AM | MO, it's completly off topic, but I used to be a rock climber. Not pro or anything, but a hobbiest. My toughest climb was a 12a class. I think strength has a lot to do with climbing, and I certanly focused on strength, but the best climber I ever shared a wall with was a 92 pound weakling. His arms and legs were so long though, he could reach all over the wall. I think Dex should be alowed as a subistute for str on the climb skill check. Anyway, I hope Cat excepts too. I'm going to go ahead and finish Drakiel, because it wont matter if I edit and Cat excepts, and if Cat dosen't except, then no fight happens anyway. [edit] Drakiel is complete. Cat can look him over before deciding wether or not to accept the fight, since I did have to edit Drakiel after the parings. I will understand if baby harvester backs down.:D |
| Ethendril01-09-04, 11:02 AM | I have some questions about tower shields for the Oracle (whoever that is): Spells without somatic components can be cast in armor with no chance of arcane spell failure. But what if they have a focus (like true strike's miniature target) or a material component? Can you cast that with a tower shield (and a weapon in your other hand) when you can't have a hand free because of the shield? Also, can you use a tower shield while mounted? I'm guessing you can't do either, but I can't find anywhere that says you can't. I'm sure the Oracle (you'll know if this is you) will know. -Ethendril |
| Jindl01-09-04, 11:13 AM | I'm no Oracle ... but, You need a hand free to use a focus or material component, unless you are wildshaped and using the feat natural spell. You can use a tower shield while mounted. -Jindl @MotherBast - I can handle your level 2 or your level 7 fight, if you like. I need the credits... @Mo - Speaking of credits, I am still missing one from last week... I ran 2 fights but only got one credit last week. |
| Ethendril01-09-04, 11:27 AM | Thanks, Jindl (I still think you may be the Oracle). [Dusk revises his tactics vs. his arch-enemy, the traitorous Iku Rex] |
| Caterane01-09-04, 12:01 PM | @Motherbast: It`s ok, of course. @Mag: :rolleyes: |
| MotherBast01-09-04, 12:05 PM | Jindl, if you wana take the level 2 fight that would be great. I want the level 7 because I'm planning to expand on the stroyline I bagain for Cur in the last fight. I have 0 credits, so your better served with the single credit I would get running 3 fights. |
| Jindl01-09-04, 12:14 PM | Originally posted by MotherBast Jindl, if you wana take the level 2 fight that would be great. I want the level 7 because I'm planning to expand on the stroyline I bagain for Cur in the last fight. I have 0 credits, so your better served with the single credit I would get running 3 fights. @Mo - Please make this change. I will take MotherBast's level 2 fight (and get another credit, yah !!). Also, please add my missing credit from last week. That should give me a total of 6 credits = ECL 4 ... -Jindl |
| Moherajikuyx01-09-04, 01:00 PM | Argh! I'm not giving a credit to ALL the moderators who run fights, it doesn't make sense. Jindl, if you're so in need of that ECL4 go on, do it: you'll have a - until you pay it, I think you're here from enough time that we can trust you to stay. *Edit* remember, no 2 HD min until we discuss a bit further the correctness of the thing towards the new players. I think the best & simplest way would be adding a "no lvl 3s this way": so mods can't start with a CL2 tiefling for instance. Cat - good boy! :) MB - Hm... Yes, I thought dex too for some time, but now I think it's more like a sinergy from balance (I thought long about that). Con is the stat, it's got something to do with Str but only if you do bouldering or short monoropes. Everything else in the mountain, is with Con. |
| Ethendril01-09-04, 01:10 PM | @ MotherBast: I've sent you tactics for Dusk the Adamant vs. Iku Rex. They're my final tactics, so feel free to run the fight early if you so desire and if Jindl consents. EDIT: They're my final tactics with one revision: I can't tell if Iku is evil still (it doesn't state his alignment on his character sheet)...If he is evil...SMITE EVIL on the first opportunity.;) -Ethendril |
| JonahBlack01-09-04, 01:36 PM | Wizard, I've send in my tactics for Grimlock. Let me know if I've made any glaring errors. |
| Jindl01-09-04, 01:38 PM | Originally posted by Ethendril EDIT: They're my final tactics with one revision: I can't tell if Iku is evil still (it doesn't state his alignment on his character sheet)...If he is evil...SMITE EVIL on the first opportunity.;) -Ethendril Now that the fiend who was posessing Iku has been exorcised, he has returned to his nuetral alignment. This was reflected on the character sheet before pairings... Story-wise, Iku was a prisoner of the Lich Queen, who had a devil possess him. The devil manifested in the famous fight vs Jagath. Once defeated, the devil left him, and Iku began to revert to normal (but not before he was killed by Dr. Dre). So, Iku is now a "free" man, at least that's what he thinks... -Jindl |
| Magagumo01-09-04, 01:43 PM | What Cat? :angel: :D I'm still waiting for a PM response... :) Hmm, too true Moh, missed that little key phrase. Also, I will attempt to next time place the yes/no at the beginning of my rant, but only because you asked so nicely ;) @ Jindl I've been concerned over the power of wildshaping your armor and not being penalized for ACP... until I realized that it requires a +3 enchancement to armor and shield. GL with your minimum 16k armor and shield, and godspeed :P |
| Jindl01-09-04, 01:46 PM | Originally posted by Magagumo @ Jindl I've been concerned over the power of wildshaping your armor and not being penalized for ACP... until I realized that it requires a +3 enchancement to armor and shield. GL with your minimum 16k armor and shield, and godspeed :P Actually it has to be added to +1 armor, making the final armor +1 Wilded armor... thats a +4 equivalent, so its 32,000 total for both armor and shield... feel better now? You'll note that Jindl took Craft Arms and Armor as his level 9 feat... -Jindl |
| Ethendril01-09-04, 03:32 PM | This was reflected on the character sheet before pairings... @ Jindl: My bad... |
| Magagumo01-09-04, 03:49 PM | @ Jindl, I meant 16k for each of them, and that was why i said godspeed.. :D And I recognized the feat you took... shame there aren't any druidic golems ;) |
| Jindl01-09-04, 03:57 PM | No druidic golems ... yeah, kinda sucks. But I doubt I would ever want a golem instead of an animal companion. At least until they come out with a golem that can fly or use ranged attacks. Hopefully that feat will be worth it. If I eventually improve the armor and shield up to a +5 Wilding, then the feat should save me lots of $$'s. -Jindl |
| SnarkHunter01-09-04, 04:53 PM | afternoon all. Tactics have been sent for Moon-Moon and Bilo (interesting fights ahead! Who will lead their respective companies of good and evil?) and recieved for Brackin and Candy. If I could get tactics by tonight I might run one of them. Otherwise not till Sunday I would expect. |
| Moherajikuyx01-09-04, 07:20 PM | Me and Cat finally ended the monster fight. the Harvester, the Cauchemare & the black cat! (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=158208&perpage=30&pagenumber=1) So, what do you guys think of this method? It's time consuming, but sometimes, it's really worth it I think. |
| SnarkHunter01-09-04, 08:19 PM | It was quite an impressive fight in its execution, its just a shame that it wasn't finished in time for Harvy to get paired. Of course if Jindl didn't mind I suppose he could fight the Elder. |
| Caterane01-10-04, 05:40 AM | Of course if Jindl didn't mind I suppose he could fight the Elder. Hey Jindl, the Harvester has a bone to pick with the Elder so I challenge him... Edit: Tactics sent for the 2nd Harvester, Ebelin and Vandaeris. Tactics received from Faldion, Bilo, Johan and from my best pal how to get aquainted with his cutie neighbor... ...and except for the last one they are all promising :twitch: |
| Jindl01-10-04, 12:10 PM | @Cat - Perhaps next week. It's too far into the weekend to try to do tactics and set a fight now, especially since we are trying to get back to the regular Wed/Fri schedule. Now, off to send tactics for Iku and Jindl... -Jindl |
| Caterane01-10-04, 12:29 PM | 8 hours later (@Cellardweller: :mad: ) I haven`t finished my homework but my fight. Faldion Oathguard vs Johan Talyana (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2291901#post2291901) @Mag: If you don`t send me tactics today there will be plain text only. Sunday is RPG all day, monday is a project I am involved in. |
| MotherBast01-10-04, 01:04 PM | After 3 1/2 hours, Curungur vs. Kelek is finished. This one lasted over 30 rounds, but I'm only posting the first 22, as everything after that is pointless. Its probably going to take me several hours to type this one up, so expect it posted before day's end. |
| Arstimis01-10-04, 02:35 PM | Tactics for Kiowen were sent yesterday Also..I am having a problem with looking at the fights page. Whenever i go to look at it, Internet Explorer says IE has encountered an error, and closes all internet pages. It only happens when i open the Fights page. So..unless i somehow get this fixed i would need someone to send me an email of the posted fight. Thanks |
| Jindl01-10-04, 02:39 PM | Tactics sent for Iku and Jindl. Tactics recieved from everyone except Mercy. Starting to moderate fights now... -Jindl @MotherBast - I was just looking over Drakiel, and there are two mistakes that I noticed. His Initiative should be +1 for his Dex 12. And he can't have 5 ranks from the druid class in any one skill, since his first level was druid, the most he could have is 4 druid ranks in any skill (so his ride and handle animal are off.) @Mercy - I got your tactics now :) |
| Mercy01-10-04, 02:47 PM | @Cat - I sent you an e-mail requesting a clarification on your tactics for Soulreaver. @Jindl - Sorry about that, I thought I had sent it, but realized it was sitting in my outbox. It's been sent now. |
| MotherBast01-10-04, 03:05 PM | Thanks for pointing that out Jindl. I'll fix it as soon as the fight is posted and I can edit Drakiel. The fight between Curungur and Kelek is posted, in only story form at the moment. I will post a second one with all the round by round numbers shortly. |
| SnarkHunter01-10-04, 03:10 PM | @Arstimis: Hey! The same thing's been hapening to me. And here I thought I was all alone in my pain. The weird thing is, it only does it on one of my computers, so I can switch to another to view it no problem. I suspect it may be something to do with IE 6, but I have no proof at the moment. @Cat: I'm sorry if Mag hasn't sent you tactics he mumbled something about waiting on a PM from you, but if it makes you feel better I will hate him forever if he does not send them. Hate hate hate. Hate. @Jindle I've got your tactics but don't expect to see the fight till late Sunday. I've got a party tonight and I'm driving back to school Sunday morning (does that sound like a bad combination? Oh well). @Tellish However I still haven't recieved any tactics for Hurtz! If I don't get them by Sunday I will most likely run the fight without them. Tah tah. |
| fluiddragon01-10-04, 03:47 PM | Tactics sent for Gage |
| Moherajikuyx01-10-04, 04:01 PM | Nice job with the fight MB, I like that style. Only thing, it doesn't make one understand perfectly what's going on, but that's not so important. Spoilers ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ Well that was close! Phew. One question, I think you made Kelek do a targeted dispell but there were the images? Or am I wrong? Did he understand the right image with spot? |
| MotherBast01-10-04, 04:25 PM | Ok, the numbers are posted for the Kelek vs. Curungur fight. MO, doh, your right, it was a targeted dispell. My mistake. You had so many buffs on I was having trouble keeping up with all the effects on you and durations, and I just simply forgot to make him take the images into account. [edit] I'm a workhorse today, Iku vs. Dusk finished, will be posted in 2 hours tops. |
| Jindl01-10-04, 06:26 PM | Elxethan Quithen, Wizard vs. Laness DeVille, Tharkos and Targ, Mercy vs. Prof. Vandaeris Dre'Dandrahl, Caterane are posted. Unfortunately, luck (both good and bad) played a major role in both fights. My apologies for the relatively dry reads. But both fights were over very quickly. The Ebelin vs Skymoon fight will be much more entertaining, I promise (should be posted tomorrow). -Jindl |
| Caterane01-10-04, 06:39 PM | Spoiler: When I wrote the tactics I knew there was one "weakness": He rolls a 4 on his spectral hand while I don`t make enough damage with a magic missile AND the delivered spell kills me instantly (dealing 30 damage). Chances were under 4% that this happened, well: my ridiculous luck, for the 1000000-time. |
| Jindl01-10-04, 06:41 PM | Spoiler - I would suggest that if your opponent is a spectral hand mage, then use a higher caster level magic missile. A 3rd level magic missile does a minimum of 4 pts of damage, so there's no chance of his hand getting you. -Jindl A magic missile does 1d4+1 damage, so 25% of the time it does 2 pts of damage. A spectral hand has more than 2 hps, 50% of the time. So, the chance doing 2 pts of damage and not destroying the hand is 12.5%. 25% of the time a magic missile does 3 pts of damage. A spectral hand has more than 3 hps only 25% of the time. So, the chance of doing 3 pts of damage and not destroying the hand is 6.25%. If a magic missile does more than 3 pts of damage the hand is guaranteed to be destroyed. So the chance of a spectral hand surviving a single magic missile is 18.75%. As for the empowered shocking grasp, it did 20 damage, base, which is slightly above the average of 17.5. So, while unlikely, this is not as unlikely as a zorander. It's on par with a critical hit for how often it will happen. But if you use 2 magic missiles, the hand always loses... |
| Caterane01-10-04, 06:52 PM | I know Jindl. In my case I have to have a 100% victory insurance beforehand else I lose the fights. Just my last 3 fights (while talking about propabilities) Ebelin vs Skymoon: Critical charge on very first attack against me being invisible and fully buffed (passed listen check, pinpointed, charged, natural 20, confirmed, passed miss chance, and dealt lethal damage; all in one move) Harvester vs Bruno: Phantasmal killer vs the Harvester`s mighty saves (lost ini [+1 vs +7], failed Fortitude, failed Will) Now Vandaeris propability distortion. Why do you think I spend hours and hours on tactics? Because I have to due to being handicapped by pure utter misfortune. Just check my fights. Perhaps next week; never give up hope. |
| MotherBast01-10-04, 07:09 PM | Cat, there is no such thing as luck. You just have bad karma. Just belive you will roll all 20's and you will. Everyone else: My god, Cat is the unluckyest person I know. On a different note, Iku vs. Dusk is up. Pretty predictable. |
| SnarkHunter01-10-04, 07:31 PM | edit nm. |
| Sir Cridion01-10-04, 07:37 PM | Can I request for no fights and only Faldion ready next week again? Thanks. Btw, I have a question regarding a tactic I have to cleverly circumvent some rules :D. Imbrium (the special mount) is summoned right? Therefore, when I enter the arena, I enter by myself. So... theoretically, I could enter on a normal heavy warhorse and summon Imbrium. I get a mount, and a fairly powerful ally! I don't know if this is considered illegal so I'm gonna bring it up right now - I also don't mind if mods find it against the spirit of the rules; I can think of something else. Btw, Faldion now has a grudge against Johan. Next time I'll make sure I have time to make tactics. ;) |
| Magagumo01-10-04, 07:48 PM | Packing for tomorrow's drive progressing slowly.. tactics mulling in head. Sorry, Cat, just saw your post now... aand now I start writing tactisc rather than converting all of BoVD NPCs to 3.5 (I'm afraid I have way too much time at home and boredom was creeping rather high ;). Of course, the archdukes look far more impressive with Divine Ranks :D) |
| SnarkHunter01-10-04, 08:09 PM | HATE! Safe drive man. |
| Tharkos01-11-04, 03:04 AM | Quote from Jindl Laness completes her thrid attempt (Damage is 2d4 = 8 pts, Fort save 17 +2 vs DC 18, pass), and though the wizard survives the shock, his blood loss will certainly result in his eventual demise. With her victory assured, Laness calls over the arena healers and is named the winner. Laness is the winner, advances a level, and recieves 1700 gp (with which she can buy a better weapon to make CDG's with). Elxethan lost (eventually) but used nothing in the fight. Now why would Laness want a better weapon to disect an opponent ? Not much fun if its over too quickly! |
| Caterane01-11-04, 05:34 AM | Jindl, you forgot to mention the nat 20 on his listen check (right after the nat 20 of his reflex save :rolleyes: ). All in all chances are really slim. I know, my fault to think I have no misfortune. Next time I buy a powerword. Anyway, it came to my mind that there was something not quite right with the ready action. It should look like this: Vandaeris readies an action. ok Drakiel double-moves into range. ok Ready action interrupt: Magic missile on hand (3 damage) ok Drakiel finishes his interrupted double-move Vandaeris' turn: 2nd Magic missile destroys spectral hand. Readying an action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over, but before your next one has begun The way you made it was: Vandaeris readies an action. ok Drakiel double-moves into range. ok Ready action interrupt: Magic missile on hand (3 damage) ok Drakiel finished his double-move and gets a completely new set of actions. :confused: So he double moved, moved a third time, cast shocking grasp into hand, and attacked me in one row??? That looks like a grave mistake. What do you others think? (Hey it would be Vandaeris' first loss so it`s clear that I don`t give up that easily) @Bruno/Bilo: My D&D group is coming over in an hour. I`ll try to post the rolls; else you get it monday evening. @Wizard: Did you roll a miss chance with the darkness? I couldn`t detect a roll |
| sshuit01-11-04, 05:56 AM | Greetings all! Back from a sunny week in Mexico. I hope to get Roger and Voliana Arena ready for this next pairing. Really just need to do a little shopping for both of them. @ll : Question re: MW Tools. As we have MW riding tools, is it possible to make a MW camouflauged cloak with +2 to hide?.. or MW sneaking shoes with +2 to move silently? sshuit |
| Tharkos01-11-04, 06:30 AM | Originally posted by sshuit @ll : Question re: MW Tools. As we have MW riding tools, is it possible to make a MW camouflauged cloak with +2 to hide?.. or MW sneaking shoes with +2 to move silently? sshuit IMO we should allow non-magical "equipment" that grants a +2 bonus for any skill and keep the fixed (but horribly unappropriate) cost of 50 gp for all skills. Its hard to define the difference between a "worthy skill" and an "unworthy one" to be granted "tool bonus". Thus the word tool should probably be replaced by the word equipment IMO. The cost for the tools is fixed 50 gp, which is pretty illogical in itself, since a pretty simple masterwork smithing hammer is going to have a different cost compared to a rather complicated masterwork loom for weaving. I think we should just keep the 50 gp for all skills for simplicitys sake and ignore any "logic" to this. For items which already have a significant price (1+ gp) in the PHB I would simply add the 50 gp to the cost of the regular item and thus a Masterwork Diplomacy Robe would cost 75 gp (Nobles outfit) + 50 gp (masterwork quality) = 125 gp, Masterwork Animal Handling Whip would cost 1 gp (Whip) + 50 gp (masterwork quality) = 51 gp, Masterwork Riding Saddle would cost 10/20 gp (Riding/Military Saddle) + 50 gp (masterwork quality) = 60/70 gp, ... This way we could circumvent masterwork items becoming cheaper than the basic item and include the price of an expensive item into it. Masterwork wepons and armor do it pretty much the same way by adding 300/150 gp to the price of the basic item. The cost isnt much, but since we are all "bean counters" here anyway it could settle this murky issue about which skills can use and which cant use masterwork "tools". |
| Caterane01-11-04, 07:17 AM | @Mag: Sorry but I have to start running the fight now. It`s sunday and I risk a moderator penalty if I don`t finish it (tomorow won`t be possible). I use your sent tactics, without the things that don`t work (as I wrote in the mail I sent you). I`ll start with the introduction now so you might have about 30min left to update your tactics. Edit: Time is up (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2297795#post2297795) |
| Jindl01-11-04, 09:24 AM | Originally posted by Caterane Jindl, you forgot to mention the nat 20 on his listen check (right after the nat 20 of his reflex save :rolleyes: ). All in all chances are really slim. I know, my fault to think I have no misfortune. Next time I buy a powerword. Anyway, it came to my mind that there was something not quite right with the ready action. It should look like this: Vandaeris readies an action. ok Drakiel double-moves into range. ok Ready action interrupt: Magic missile on hand (3 damage) ok Drakiel finishes his interrupted double-move Vandaeris' turn: 2nd Magic missile destroys spectral hand. The way you made it was: Vandaeris readies an action. ok Drakiel double-moves into range. ok Ready action interrupt: Magic missile on hand (3 damage) ok Drakiel finished his double-move and gets a completely new set of actions. :confused: So he double moved, moved a third time, cast shocking grasp into hand, and attacked me in one row??? That looks like a grave mistake. What do you others think? (Hey it would be Vandaeris' first loss so it`s clear that I don`t give up that easily) Check the spell ranges for magic missile and spectral hand. Both are medium, but the magic missile is caster level 1, and the hand is caster level 3. When Targ (not Drakiel), finished his double move, he was 135 feet away (out of range for his hand, and out of range for your magic missile). So you continued to ready to hit his hand with a magic missile when it came within range. As his next action, Targ took a 5 foot step towards you (range is now 130 feet), and since you were now in range, he cast the shocking grasp into the hand. The hand began moving towards you. When it was within 110 feet, your readied action triggered and you hit the hand with the magic missile. The hand survived and continued coming towards you and delivering the touch spell. Had you survived, your initiative would have been before his for the rest of the fight. It was a tough loss. I just didn't understand why you didn't memorize a magic missile. That one first level memorized spell could have destroyed the hand (with 2 darts) and if Targ was in range, hit him with the leftover dart. Better luck next time. -Jindl |
| SnarkHunter01-11-04, 03:00 PM | Well then. There can be no doubt of who will be leading the forces of evil this week. One thing (the only thing I noticed actually) Bilo had an extra +1 on attacks and damage for those last two from Point Blank Shot. Good fight Cat, it would be nice if you could get a story in there but if you can't then don't worry about it. Edit: Oh also, I did use a scroll of greater invisibility. |
| Tellish_of_Ket01-11-04, 03:03 PM | @MB. Kelek vs Curungur. What happened to all the secondary saves for the poison? That's a lot of saves. Plus i have two-weapon fighting, and both daggers are venomed. Could have taken another swipe at him, and when he got close i would have liked to use the scroll of gust of wind to push him away so i wouldn't get blinded (might have even finished him off too). I think i mentioned it. Not sure. Sigh...anyhow. next week is my bump week. Other than that, you did well though. glad you had fun. Tellish EDIT: Gage vs Rito is done. Hope i didn't miss anything obvious. But if i did i'm sure i'll hear about it. lol |
| MotherBast01-11-04, 07:25 PM | Tellish, from the way you wrote the part about gust of wind in your tactics I thought you were implying you would use the spell to disapate the mist if he ever intered it. I didn't realize you ment to use it on him. Still, as a medium flying creature, Cur would have only been blown back 1d6x5 feet, max 30', still in range to move and cast his blindness. As far as the daggers, I concidered them, but you had a better chance with the spell. If he hadn't moved to disrupt your line of sight to him when he went above the mist you would have tried a death attack instead. As far as the secondary saves, I mistakenly belived you didn't have to make the second save if you made the first. As Curungur had healing potions available, it probalby wouldn't have won you the fight, as the earliest save he needed to remake was on round 21, and he would succeed on a 3 or better, it might have forced him to use a few potions if he had been in danger of taking Con damage. So I allowed Kelek to dispell Cur without having to elimanate the Mirror Images first and then allowed Cur to avoid using potions by not rerolling the fort saves. The two probably balence out, but I will certanly not make the same mistakes again. I need to print up some status modafier sheets for these fights. I had so much to keep track of in the way of spells and durations in this fight it made the printed out version of the character sheets look like scratch paper. I'm lucky to have only made 2 errors in 30 rounds. (counting my misconception about poison as one error.) As far as the fun part, as I mentioned, that fight was anything but fun to run. The round where Kelek pulls off the scorching ray sneak attack was the only fun thing in the whole fight. I keept picturing him retreting into the mist, vanishing from view as he step back. Cur looking around frantacly, unable to hear him, and then BAM, ray right in the back. That, was cool. The rest of the fight was pretty dull. Buff, buff, buff vs. TS, shot, TS, shot...... Actually, now that I think about it, it was actually Kelek's amazing hide skill that killed him. If Cur had ever been able to spot Kelek while Kelek was sniping, his tactics said to stop buffing and go for the blind. That means he wouldn't have had the Bear's Endurence up, and the Ray would have killed him. Or, maybe not, perhaps the damage would have been one less. I'm just babbleing now. Off to see if any of my fights are up. |
| Tellish_of_Ket01-11-04, 08:45 PM | @MB, yup. wasn't complaining, just pointing stuff out. But i think my first two drow shots would have been made without the benefit right? anyhow, since we've all seen some unlucky rolls like i'm sure cat and i can attest to, if cur fails the drow, it's game over, and there's two chances at it. Kiowen vs Ilene done. Again, if i missed anything horrible, please point it out. Very uneventful tactics. @MO: waiting for tactics for monster fight. I work 12hr shifts this week, so it may not get run until very late. Tellish |
| kattattack2201-11-04, 08:50 PM | In Lucius's first battle, Grimlock pointed out that he shouldn't qualify for the feat Weapon Finesse. Should I switch it for another feat or just leave it? Also, do I lose the 2 points of Con since I died being 1st level (ECL 2) or is there no consequence of death for this? |
| sshuit01-11-04, 08:50 PM | @ToK In that Kiowen vs Ilene fight the 1st round arrow would not have been deflected since he is flat footed. Otherwise looked good. sshuit |
| SnarkHunter01-11-04, 08:53 PM | Katt@ There's no penalty for death but I'm afraid you will have to switcch the feat. Working on Jindle vs. Brackin right now. Would have been sooner but uh...Running a fight drunk seemed like a bad idea ;). |
| Jindl01-11-04, 09:10 PM | @ToK - Iron has default tactics for taming on his character sheet. Mo had me use those tactics last week in Iron's monster fight. I suppose he prolly wants to use the same ones again. Also, since the vote seems against allowing advanced animal handling, I suppose you'll have Iron face a normal megaraptor? *** SPOILERS *** RE: Rito vs Gage At first I didn't understand why Gage didn't cast dispel magic when Rito drank the potion of fly. But then it ocurred to me that Rito has like 17 different potions and Gage would need some way of determining which one he drank, since Rito had yet to use the potion's effects (by remaining grounded). So, Gage would need to make a spellcraft check DC 23 (which means he would need to roll an 18 or higher with his +5 modifier). This assumes that there is some visible effect to gaining a fly spell (like wind whirling around you, or tranluscent wings, etc.) I suppose that visible effect is up to the DM, but in all likelyhood, Gage would not have identified the potion's effect, and thus would have proceeded with his TS + enervation tactics. Which brings me to my second question: As grapple attempts are a type of attack action, wouldn't Gage's true strike spell assist him in his grapple attempt to escape (the action he took, not his reactionary grapple when Rito attacked)? I'm not sure, but I think True Strike may affect grapple attacks, in which case Gage may have escaped that grapple... -Jindl |
| Arstimis01-11-04, 10:57 PM | About my fight...i have a few complaints First off you spelled my name wrong in the initiative roll. Its not Ciowen. :) but more seriously How did this hit me in Round 4 [atk: 18+9-2rapid-4move-2proficiency=19, hits.] My ac was 20, normally 16+4 from mage armor also...the horse...how did it have three attacks, and how were its attacks at +4 Here is the horse: Special: MOUNT: Horse, light Hp: 3d8+6(19) Initiative: +1 Speed 60 ft. AC: 13 Attack: 2 hooves +2 melee Damage: Hoof 1d4+1 Fort +5, Ref +4, Will +2 With those being two less it would have made a huge difference here. The horse continues to pound on Kiowen caving in his face. [atk: 16+4=20, hits] [atk: 17+4=21, hits] [atk: 12-1=11, miss] [dmg: 2+3+6=11] that..and i dont understand how you got that damage, max would be 4+4+2...only 10..and thats max rolls.... So..if those actually are mistakes then the match would have been drastically different in my favor. So please tell me what happened there. Edit: Kiowen will not kill the opponent if the fight is won. He will leave them to be tended to after they have been knocked unconcious. mod note: the opponent must be dead for you to win As i recall in many fights the opponent does not have to be dead, just unable to do anything ( him and his ally that is). i remember a recent fight when someone left them alive so the arena clerics didnt have to waste a resurrections scroll |
| Jindl01-11-04, 11:27 PM | @Snark - Just sent you an email reply to that PM you sent me. |
| Mercy01-11-04, 11:52 PM | @Cat and Mother - I hope I followed your tactics to your satisfaction. Cat I know I didn't do your tanglefoot tactic. @All - Regarding Magic Missiles vs. Spectral Hands, I'm assuming we are playing where Spectral Hands are creatures. Because, creatures are the only valid targets for Magic Missiles. Is this how you guys normally play? I've always played it that they were not. |
| SnarkHunter01-12-04, 12:00 AM | What ho old beans? Candy vs. Hurtz finished. The epic love story continues (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2304126#post2304126) ;). Jindle, I'll take it into consideration when I work on the fight tomorrow. |
| Tellish_of_Ket01-12-04, 12:22 AM | @Snark. Actually i did send you the tactics. I sent them to the ryhen address. It's the only email of yours i have. EDIT: Just read the fight. Well, it's exactly the tactics i sent actually. With maybe one small change, but if you do recieve them you'll read, that's pretty darn close to what i had intended. @Arstimis. My bad. When i saw light horse, i just assumed light warhorse. It obvious then that you are the winner. I'll adjust the end of the fight accordingly. And no, it's not the first to get someone uncouncious that wins, you still need to finish them off. As for that 19 hitting that you showed an example of, you were denied your dex for running, so it did hit. If that had been a real light war horse (as opposed to the imaginary one in my head) you'd have lost. Be careful to take allies into consideration, especially if the opponent stabilizes. You could still end up dying if it can fight on it's own, such as a horse with the defend trick can. I'll go edit the tail end of the fight. You may advance your character. Tellish |
| Arstimis01-12-04, 12:49 AM | Thanks Tellish oh and one last thing, At the end of the fight Kiowen would have Arcane Marked her hand, leaving a "K" |
| Jindl01-12-04, 12:51 AM | @ToK - Check the crit multiplier on crossbows ... and light horses are not trained in combat riding, don't know the defend trick, and suffer severe handle animal check DC's to be controlled in combat. -Jindl |
| Tellish_of_Ket01-12-04, 01:33 AM | Originally posted by Jindl @ToK - Check the crit multiplier on crossbows ... and light horses are not trained in combat riding, don't know the defend trick, and suffer severe handle animal check DC's to be controlled in combat. -Jindl sometimes i swear i'm retarded. My confusion stems from the fact that it's x3 on his sheet. Arstimis, please change the x3 crit modifier on your weapon chart in case absent-minded mods (like me) mistake it again. ANYHOW....fight continues on from rd 9. Arstimis....hold off on leveling your character until you read the fight again. Since the error was made at the last round, it's not a re-run, it's a CONTINUATION. @Snark: nice story work and funny additions to the fight. I will have to add to it in my background, haha Tellish |
| Arstimis01-12-04, 01:54 AM | Im sorry....i dont know I put that... sometimes i swear i'm retarded. we're not much different, heh Edit: Thank you Tellish for running the fight through the mess |
| Rosella01-12-04, 03:26 AM | I need to know why I received a proficiency penalty on my longbow attacks; as an elf I'm automatically proficient with it! besides that, I believed that deflect arrows needed a DC to succeed in deflecting; It says "may deflect" in the 3.5 version, in the 3.0 it says vs. a DC of 20. I assumed that somewhere else in the 3.5 books something would be said on how to deflect weapons. lol, i just noticed the comment on our fight, i hope tok gets this one too :) |
| cellardweller01-12-04, 03:50 AM | Originally posted by Rosella I need to know why I received a proficiency penalty on my longbow attacks; as an elf I'm automatically proficient with it! Elves are proficient with the longbow. A composite longbow is a seperate weapon and requires its own proficiency. I'm feeling a little guilty about having Cat run a fight featuring Johan and his small army while I'm not moding any, so Smushy will be fighting this week. |
| Rosella01-12-04, 03:57 AM | taken from 3.5 SRD (that's how it's called I believe): from the elven part: • Weapon Proficiency: Elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats. |
| cellardweller01-12-04, 04:12 AM | Yes, you are correct we houseruled them to be the same for war domain purposes which is what I was getting confused with. The real reason that you had a -2 penalty was that it was a Mighty +2 bow but Ilene only has 12 str. SRD: If your Strength bonus is less than the strength rating of the composite bow, you can’t effectively use it, so you take a –2 penalty on attacks with it. |
| Rosella01-12-04, 04:24 AM | lol, I wasn't aware of that! stupid, I expended extra money to get it @ +2 just for the future and now I find out it even gives me a penalty! Can I change it back to the +1 without expenses? |
| Moherajikuyx01-12-04, 05:26 AM | Yes, we're here to test builds after all, and if one can't learn from his errors we're doomed. Little changes like this will not make a difference in the fights. Of course used expendable items have to remain on the used part of the sheets though (I'm not referring to anyone in particular). I changed some little things of my pcs too. I did some errors in Curungur's skill allocations, for instance... Nothing terrible, but 2 skill points are better than one when you have to distribute them to cross classed abilities. Anyways... To the fights! (My climbing yesterday was wonderful... I felt like Iron on the Sacred Mountain! I want to found a Religion of the Sacred Mountain!) |
| Moherajikuyx01-12-04, 06:44 AM | Some notes on the fights. Just for reference: nothing would have changed I believe. - use scroll in altered shape (imp): possible only if the scroll was held in hand (I don't remember if it was), equipment shapes in the spell - spellcraft: hearing the V component requires making out the words, which raises the listen check DC by 10 - masterwork tools - I don't know, this could become ridiculous. Sneaking shoes? No nikes in dnd please! :D I'm willing to destroy Iron's handler tools (I just saved a will check:)), if I'm backed. I think we should make them "existing tools only": and with this, I mean "only tools that help a skill which without tools gets a -2 circumstance penalty". I like Tharkos' proposal too, though I would require that one makes mw an existing item only. - called palamount + mount: I think that you don't have any way to direct the palamount by the rules (of course, any sensed dm would make the mount follow and protect you, but we're in the arena) so that's pointless. Handle doesn't work on magic beasts of int>1 or 2, so you should magically talk to animals. |
| Jindl01-12-04, 10:03 AM | Originally posted by Rosella besides that, I believed that deflect arrows needed a DC to succeed in deflecting; It says "may deflect" in the 3.5 version, in the 3.0 it says vs. a DC of 20. I assumed that somewhere else in the 3.5 books something would be said on how to deflect weapons. We discussed this long ... long ago ... back on this thread about 70 pages or so :). The result was that using the feat, you automatically deflect the first attack that would hit. Using the shield enhancement still requires the reflex save. @Mo - Perhaps we should add a feats clarification section to the arena rules, where we could summarize all of these previous discussions to make them easy for newcomers to find/read. Originally posted by Moherajikuyx - use scroll in altered shape (imp): possible only if the scroll was held in hand (I don't remember if it was), equipment shapes in the spell Alter self says that only equipment that cannot be worn by the new form melds. Most scrolls are keep in the belt, or in a scroll organizer on the belt. Any creature with a waist can wear a belt (and some without waists). So, the belt would not meld, and thus the scrolls would still be accessable. Originally posted by Moherajikuyx - called palamount + mount: I think that you don't have any way to direct the palamount by the rules (of course, any sensed dm would make the mount follow and protect you, but we're in the arena) so that's pointless. Handle doesn't work on magic beasts of int>1 or 2, so you should magically talk to animals. There are a few exceptions to this Handle Animal not working on Int >2. They are specifically listed (like the pegasus, which in its description says it can be trained via handle animal check, even though its Int is 10.) Also, handle animal skill specifically refers to paladin mounts (as pally's get a +4 bonus...), so I would assume that being a paladin mount ignores the Int 1 or 2 rule. -Jindl |
| Caterane01-12-04, 12:55 PM | @Cat and Mother - I hope I followed your tactics to your satisfaction. Cat I know I didn't do your tanglefoot tactic. Yes, I`m pleased with the result, of course. A few things though: In round 8 I hit him for 2 points which you didn`t substract so the fight would`ve been finished a bit earlier. Then it is Knellstriker not Knellstrider and the Soulreaver title is only to distinguish the two Harvesters but I`m not sure if anyone realized whom Drakiel was really facing but that`s not so important. Good work. Originally posted by Cellardweller: I'm feeling a little guilty about having Cat run a fight featuring Johan and his small army while I'm not moding any Don`t worry. You payed dearly for this :devil: Excerpt from the fight results: Round 12 Johan: casts SM3 (Celestial black bear). Monsters attack [Giant bee 5: Sting (9+4) = 13 vs Ac23, fails][Giant bee 6: Sting (6+4) = 10 vs Ac23, fails][Giant bee 7: Sting (15+4) = 19 vs Ac23, fails][Lantern Archon: Light ray (17+2+1) = 20 vs Ac10, success; Damage (1d6) = 2; Light ray (12+2+1) = 15 vs Ac10, success; Damage (1d6) = 1] Faldion: attacks Giant bee 5 [Faldion: Longsword (7+10) = 17 vs Ac14, success; Damage (1d8+3) = 11; Longsword (6+5) = 11 vs Ac14, fails] Imbrium attacks Giant bee 5 [Imbrium: Hoof (13+7) = 20 vs Ac14, success; Damage (1d6+4) = 5; Hoof (15+7) = 22 vs Ac14, success; Damage (1d6+4) = 6; Giant bee 5 is dead] Caterane attacks Cellardweller [Caterane: Vengeful Gaze of Mod (5000d6) = 2365 damage; Cellardweller regrets his tactics] Imbrium attacks Giant bee 6 [Imbrium: Bite (4+2) = 6 vs Ac14, fails] |
| Rosella01-12-04, 04:00 PM | I think this deserves mention; although I'm not pleased with the outcome (obviously) I'm happy that ToK was willing to run the fight. many thanks! |
| MotherBast01-12-04, 05:17 PM | About Candy's fight with Hurtz. I only noticed one mistake, but it was repeated and had a big impact on the fight. The horse was allowed to track me without having the track feat. I do notice it knows the track trick, but the trick does not grant the ability to track without the feat, just gives the animal the ability to track by scent on command. You will notice that in the Scent description it stats that a creature must have the track feat to be able to track by scent. The trick dosen't allow a creature to track without the feat, just allows it to track on command if it does have the feat. So, after my first movement, Hurtz never should have been able to locate me, as he never passed any listen checks vs. my move silently checks. I'm not upset by the loss, Candy has the money to cover the used goods, but I just dont want to loose for the same reason to the next person who rides a horse into battle against Candy. She looked really really bad in this fight, and would not have if the horse had not been given the ability to track her. Also, just for Snark, my tactics said if I was having trouble staying away from him to drink my fly potion. Once I realized the horse was somehow able to track me and was following me I should have done that. Had I ever managed to escape Hurtz, then it would have been him looking foolish and inadiquit while Candy was sound and purposfull. Well, up untill the melee part came, then he would have killed me. Still, I had about a 50% chance of hitting him with my sleep bomb, and it would have been a completly different fight if the horse hadden't been tracking me. Otherwise, everything else was good as far as I could see, and the end result of the fight is what I expected if it ever came down to melee. Oh, and thanks for pointing out the song/goodhope not stacking. For some reason I thought the song was a courage bonus. The name was throwing me off. [edit] Drakiel Mourning has now become Drakiel Moorning, a "completly new" gladiator with a fresh win/loss record and a brand new 1000gp. He does resemble the other Drakiel very strongly however, except this version is actually correct, I think. |
| Tellish_of_Ket01-12-04, 06:42 PM | @MB. I liked Drakiel. I think that that was one of the best lvl 2 fights i've ever read. It was very challenging, exhilerating, and exciting. Some high level fights are extremely dull when comparted to that one. Kudos on a VERY sound character build and tactics. And anyone can track a DC 10 or less track. Soft ground, or sandy floor makes you at worst a DC 10 to track, or at best DC 5. I think what should have been used was my survival skill (0 ranks, +4 wis, +4 scent aided creature), equalling +8. As it stood, i believe Snark used DC 10 handle animal correct? With my +1, making it obviously a poorer choice for me to use. But again, we cross into new territory where no one has used their mount to track (actually i have mentioned it in tactics a few times, but it's never come up). We can chalk this up to a learning experience and discuss tracking in the arena. I can say i'm VERY surprised that the rangers have not been tracking hidden foes. I've thought about this for a long time and never mentioned it for fear of being tracked myself, but now that the topic has come up, time to spill the beans. @Rosella: hope your questions were answered. Seems like they were. @mw, tools: I've thought about this as well and never did cross the line of abusiveness in paying 50 for +2 h/ms, while for 2500 i can get a +5 magical one. Doesn't seem to make sense for me. I think we can keep the animal handling whistles around. Doesn't seem like it's being abused...has it even ever BEEN used? Despite the number of characters that own one? So i don't see it as a problem item that needs nerfing. Keeping them to what's readily available, and the currently used riding items and we'll be fine. Tellish |
| Caterane01-12-04, 06:53 PM | @Mo: I added the point buy stats, as requested. I have also a request. In the (little :mad: ) Harvester`s last fight he was only refered to as the Soulreaver but that should just be a nickname to distinguish the two on the roster. I see that the name will replace the name "Harvester" in future fights and that misleads the readers since it IS the Harvester - just another avatar. So I decided to drop the Soulreaver appendix. Please change the name of the 2nd Harvester to "Harvester (2nd)" thx Cat Edit: Hey, I just made my 1000st post!! If that`s not a reason to drink something strong :D On the other hand, it`s not that much in 3 years. Uh, I drink something anyway :angel: |
| MotherBast01-12-04, 07:12 PM | Tellish, your right about following tracks if the DC is 10 or less, but in the case of using Scent to follow tracks, as the horse was doing, the Track feat is a must. The scent ability specificaly says you may only use scent to follow tracts if you have the track feat, and goes on to say the DC is 10. Hurtz could not have tracked Candessa, as the dificulty of following her tracks without scent would have been higher than 10, and he dosen't have track. To follow her tracks without scent would have probably been DC 15, for firm ground, as the book says most outdoor spaces are firm ground, and most soft indoor spaces are also firm ground. The Arena is usualy concidered "Defalt", so it would probably be Firm Ground. Also, for future fights, when tracking, the tracker should move at half speed unless they take -5. In the case of the horse, since it moved 30 feet or more and attacked me several times, I'm assuming it wasen't moving at half speed, else it would have needed to double move to keep up with me. [edit] Oh, and about Drakiel, thanks for the support. I was sgruggling between him and a remake of Wolf-wings old Use Magic Device Bard. If Candessa continues to falter I might remake her into the U.M.D. Bard. Drakiel is my take on a Core only version of the classic Monk/Druid build off the Min/Max archives. If I make it to level 6 with him it will be smooth sailing from then on. |
| Mercy01-12-04, 07:23 PM | @Cat - Sorry about nicknaming Harvester (2nd) to just Soulreaver and mis-naming his horse. Question for everybody: I know my fights haven't been the only ones to use Magic Missile against a Spectral Hand. Was it ruled on an earlier post that Spectral Hands are "creatures" and therefore subject to being a target for the Magic Missile spell. I remember a discussion on "Spectral" aspect of the hand, but I don't remember anything about targeting the Spectral Hand with a spell that has "Targets" line of "Up to five creatures, no two of which can be more than 15 ft. apart" in the spell description. |
| sshuit01-12-04, 08:39 PM | I was rejigging Voliana's skill points very slightly... and I moved a couple of skill points out of Ride, since I've decided that riding wouldn't be very useful for a sneak-rogue type build. (and so that I could make the requirement for a certain prestige class at level 7 :-) ) If that is considered cheating I can undo it but I never used ride in any combats so far and I''m not going to be using it in the future either methinks. |
| SnarkHunter01-12-04, 08:58 PM | Mag's having some problems with his computer (moved old HD to new motherboard) so I posted his fight for him! |
| Magagumo01-12-04, 09:06 PM | Hoy! Computer is still being goofy so I'm using a scool computer. Many thanks to Snark for posting the fight for me.. pretty basic, I hope the tactics were followed faithfully enough. Hey Cat, I'm afraid do to moving about and changing of email accounts from home to school, I missed your email to me. Fee free to send me a PM if you still want to discuss it. Funny enough, Evard's caught me completely off-guard (could have had Tony break the grapple easily enough, but didn't think of it). Ah well, point for this board to ponder: Small and Huge opponents can share the same square. Now, I know that means I can be in any of Tony's squares, but would it be possible for him to hold me in his hand w/o grappling, provided his morningstar wasn't readied? Massive servants carrying their master is seen often enough in movies and such, so I wonder if such a possibility could occur? |
| Jindl01-13-04, 01:51 AM | I am now 30 rounds into the Skymoon vs Ebelin fight. That's 30 complete rounds. And both combatants have healed themselves to 75% or more hps, so there is still many rounds of fighting left. Curse you both... -Jindl |
| SnarkHunter01-13-04, 03:51 AM | Hello. Its me, for real this time. Mother I'll look into it in the morning I'm pretty beat right now. JIndle vs. Brackin up! Like many situations were familiar with this fight had a lot of foreplay and about 3 seconds of action. A little unsatisfying when you think about it. BUt anyway you can read about it right yar! (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2314365#post2314365) Good luck Jindl, I hope the tactics you got weren't as aggravating as mine ;). |
| Moherajikuyx01-13-04, 07:00 AM | Tomar Vilir vs. Octavian Cesar posted. Originally posted by Jindl Alter self says that only equipment that cannot be worn by the new form melds. Most scrolls are keep in the belt, or in a scroll organizer on the belt. Any creature with a waist can wear a belt (and some without waists). So, the belt would not meld, and thus the scrolls would still be accessable. Belts work for humanoid types, who have flanks larger then the waist: in other cases they fall. An eagle has no neck or waist either. A bear could probablyu have the waist, but not the neck for sure. Luckily this didn't change anything in Jindl vs. Brackin I think. I already said this and I'd like that you remember it now, being the arena shapechanger :) Maybe the imp is humanoid enough as to wear a belt though, now that I think about it. It's something mods have to adjudicate: given that there aren't either guidelines about this, we have to assume a minimalist approach and keep possibilities to the minimum. Shaping spells are already powerful enough without needing improvements. About handle: the written exceptions supercede the general rule, this is obvious. About paladins I can't find nothing on the SRD handle animal, it's all about druids and rangers: don't tell me it's another difference from the books? Cat - ok, there goes the 2nd. Everyone, the little harvester is now called Second! :D sshuit - no problem I think, just make it clear. Mercy - well, I think the hand is a creature, it's got hps from the caster. It should be part of the caster. It's not clear, but magic missile works against spectral hand from the abysses of time... Of course this isn't a really solid argument though. *Edit* Mag: why not? Everyone: next pairings 15/1! We gain a day from last week! :) Fights should be posted before tomorrow morning (EU). |
| Tharkos01-13-04, 07:19 AM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx - masterwork tools - I don't know, this could become ridiculous. Sneaking shoes? No nikes in dnd please! :D I'm willing to destroy Iron's handler tools (I just saved a will check:)), if I'm backed. I think we should make them "existing tools only": and with this, I mean "only tools that help a skill which without tools gets a -2 circumstance penalty". I like Tharkos' proposal too, though I would require that one makes mw an existing item only. Well I think the "animal handling bit and bridle / whistle" and such are a bit far fetched and they certainly are NOT tools per se (and thus pretty ridiculous to proclaim as tools). On the other hand I think it would be fair to have such skill increasing items for any skill and completely get rid of the word "tool" because it is causing these confusions. Even a high quality leather apron and some "sunglasses" for a smith might help him make better items (because he could handle fire easier and check his heated goods better), but those things wouldnt be "tools" per se because they arent used to work on the item directly. Definition: (my personal version) A "tool" is an item which you need to create a piece of equipment from raw (dead matter) materials. Thus animal handling, riding, ... dont really have tools but rather have pieces of equipment you need for the job anyway. |
| Caterane01-13-04, 08:03 AM | Tools: I already bought a Hellfire Forge to get a +2 on Craft armor. That`s a cool idea with the base price + 50 gp and using another name. Spectral hand: Hm, the spectral hand argument would interest me too. I would`ve never come to the idea that it is a valid target for MM. A stone wall has hp, too. Meld into stone: Didn`t we agree to just allow 10 rounds out of combat? Remind me to buy an adamantine Greatsword and cast a nonmagical stone to peebles on it. Harvester: I can detect no change on the roster!? |
| Jindl01-13-04, 08:23 AM | I never went 10 rounds without attacking. I summoned a bear to attack... not my fault if Brackin was invisible. My 10 rounds started over then... poor Nox. I'll come to your aid sooner next time... |
| Tharkos01-13-04, 09:20 AM | SUGGESTION: Can someone list all the „final decisions“ for the minor topics we discussed and decided upon but didnt have a vote on somewhere ? This would be good to have a reference. (Probably best in the „Vote thread“) Question 1: Undead Several characters in the arena are using undead monsters as their cohorts and I do have one question about handling the "control action" for these mindless things. The PHB says on page 159: "The cleric (and what about Wizards with Animate Dead ?) must take a standard action to give mental orders to a commanded undead." So the question is: can the first order ("attack him" or "move forward to square xxxx") be given to the undead prior to round one in the arena or does he have to spend his first standard action on it ? IMO the order needs to be given in round one because otherwise it would be like casting a buff spell right before the fight. If the master has to spend the first standard action on it the "1 round fight" of "The Harvester vs. Bilo Darkleaf" wouldnt be possible because the Harvester would not have been able to cast Hold Person in round 1 and this would have given Bilo a chance to act. The undead Dragon can be "ridden" (or rather sat upon), but its not really a mount because of the nonexistant INT and needs to be directed to act (and ride skill cant be used to negate damage as well). Question 2: Craft Skills How are we handling making money with craft skills now ? Question 3: Resurrection of Cohorts Is it free ? If it is free then I think we are doing something wrong, because people could buy a trained griffon rather cheap for 8500 gp (7000 gp young griffon, 1500 gp trainer) and have a pretty good „free set of attacks“ which they wouldnt loose and could sacrifice on purpose during a fight. This would be much more effective than maybe a wand of fireballs which slowly looses ist charges while being used. Thus I think we need a „resurrection fee“ for resurrecting cohorts and „recreating“ Undead to make sure these things dont get out of hand. Druids could get a new animal companion for free, Paladins should probably have their mounts raised from death and undead corpses *might* be enchanted again a limited number of times and getting a new cohort should incur the usual penalty. Bought „monsters“ should not be given the same free ride however because it just makes this option too powerful. As Laness I would just need 3 orders for a trained griffon which I could buy anyway: - „attack“, - „back off“ and - „protect (me)“ and the Griffon would provide a rather cheap decoy for my opponent to split his attention too easily. Question 4: Round 1 Is the opponent who looses initiative flat-footed ? That would seem a bit illogical (and unfair) because everyone knows the fight will start soon and everyone is aware of his opponent. Maybe we could make everyone start with a readied action ? |
| Jindl01-13-04, 12:21 PM | 9 hours of work ... yep. Ebelin vs Skymoon is posted. 211 dice rolls on the online roller. 31 complete and action packed rounds. I'll add the story later tonight. -Jindl |
| barrel_master01-13-04, 01:38 PM | Whoa! So many posts! May I ask to mod 0 fights again this week, unless the situation is increadibly horrible and people are having to mod 1 over their active characters. my active char this week = peter patroclus lvl 6 Also, it looks as if my 'may I mod 0 fight's this week' requests may become a semi-permenent thing. I just want to know if this would cause too much of a drain on the area's time... feedback is appreciated. |
| SnarkHunter01-13-04, 01:51 PM | Wow nice fight Jindl, everything seems in order (and in the end I think thats the highest praise for a mod :)). |
| Caterane01-13-04, 03:12 PM | Hrmpf. Forgot to mention Ashteru and to not use any ressources. Ebelin is absolutely bankrupt. And now my potions and scrolls :( [@Jindl: It`s ok though]. I really didn`t want to face Skymoon for we are on the same side and I wanted to face someone new. Ok, let`s do it now (I waited for so long for a reason). Ebelin challenges Brackin and The Harvester challenges Rito Didn`t fight any of them... And now to the Jägermeister |
| Magagumo01-13-04, 03:49 PM | Drat! Don't fight Ebeli, Brackin... fight good ol' Bruno :) And Zorander challenges Kelek, so as to avoid repeat fights and continue testing the build. Hmm.. have to see who Bruno hasn't fought, if not Brackin (I'll get you someday, Jindl of the High Forest ;)) |
| Caterane01-13-04, 05:37 PM | @Mag: Go away! I saw him first! Search your own one :D I write a proper challenge text when I`m at home tomorow. |
| Jindl01-13-04, 05:47 PM | @Cat - yeah, Harvey is running now... I thought you wanted to challenge the Elder? :turkey: @Snark - Shall we go Bilo vs Jindl this time? @Mo - I don't think you should credit a win on their record for monster fights. The character record should only show matches against other gladiators... -Jindl |
| MotherBast01-13-04, 05:54 PM | Brackin doesn't like it that so many people actually want to fight him...... quick question, can Brackin buy a ring of counterspells and then pay to have a spell cast into it? [edit] oh, and Brackin excepts Ebelin's challange. (he asked first.) and JohnaBlack, I noticed your sig some time ago, and as a huhe Buffy the Vampire Slayer fan, I have to say that quote just screems at me. Is it from Buffy? If it is I'm gonna feel so bad for not knowing for sure. |
| MotherBast01-13-04, 07:26 PM | One more thing. Candy has a challange to issue this week. She is officaly challanging Alathar Vierce to come out of retirement and face her. A propper challange will be posted on the RP thread. |
| Wizard01-13-04, 07:53 PM | I saw on the Gladiators thread that I have two losses, but I haven't seen my fight anywhere! Jindl? Clarification? |
| Mercy01-13-04, 07:55 PM | Regarding the Spectral Hand is a creature (for purposes of the Magic Missile spell) argument. The counter argument to my mind would be: that it is not creature, because it does not have the Abilities Stat (str, dex, con, int, wis, cha) block as other creatures do. |
| Jindl01-13-04, 11:17 PM | Originally posted by Wizard I saw on the Gladiators thread that I have two losses, but I haven't seen my fight anywhere? Jindl? Clarification? It was posted on 1/10/04. It is the last white background post on page 9 of the fights thread. It was a very close fight, you had very bad luck on your damage rolls, followed by a failed save vs color spray. You should have won, she just got lucky... -Jindl |
| Moherajikuyx01-14-04, 03:27 AM | Originally posted by Jindl @Mo - I don't think you should credit a win on their record for monster fights. It's necessary because of the craft money system: as the monster fight counts as the weekly fight, one can craft for money that week. I see that no one uses that though: I'd love to remove it... When one increases the bonus over time it becomes hard to check. Originally posted by MotherBast quick question, can Brackin buy a ring of counterspells and then pay to have a spell cast into it? I say yes... Ring of dispel all the way! |
| KerlanRayne01-14-04, 03:57 AM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx It's necessary because of the craft money system: as the monster fight counts as the weekly fight, one can craft for money that week. I see that no one uses that though: I'd love to remove it... When one increases the bonus over time it becomes hard to check. @Mo: So we're actually sing the caft for money thing? Last I saw it was just a proposal. I'm for it though. How does it work again? @All: Tomar has been bumped to level 7 becauseof 3 losses, and also goes inactive to make room for: Grym Mordib (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&perpage=1&postid=2323639#post2323639) Does it look OK? KerlanRayne |
| LLMadCow01-14-04, 04:09 AM | @ALL - I must apologize for my last post I made. Life has been very rough for me over the course of the previous month, and in dealing with everything I have fought off depression and the drink, and I am returning to the arena. For the next few months I will only be entering one PC per week and be unable to run. I must concentrate on several other things, but I hope to return to running games in the springtime. I am sorry about the last fight I was supposed to run, too much was happening. I hope that everyone is doing okay and I am looking forward to reading through the last bunch of posts I have missed. @Mo - Herrix is ready for battle. Cliodhna and Allister are waiting in the wings. :cool: |
| Moherajikuyx01-14-04, 04:18 AM | Hehe! We were superfast this week! Good boys! If everyone makes it, I'll do the pairings today... craft money - wait, I was convinced that we already voted on that, but I was wrong: we didn't decide on that yet. I think that the bounce rule is enough, that's a lot better for balance keeping easyness. I'm going to remove that rule before anyone begins using it. The problem is that the difficulty of mantaining a balance (you'd have to keep a line for every week, as the skill could change, and mods should go through the whole number of fights to check it...) is not worth the income. LL - welcome back! |
| KerlanRayne01-14-04, 04:33 AM | What would be the DC when using Craft to earn money. Would it be the highest we can get when taking 10? Do we have to use a DC from the list? Just wondering. KerlanRayne EDIT: Nevermind, Mo said it's gone. |
| Moherajikuyx01-14-04, 05:25 AM | Sorry KR... Besides I can't find it on the SRD, and I'd prefer to keep things doable from work :angel: MAGAGUMO! You're terrible! Your pcs are going to be the odd characters if any, until you write yes or no before the polls vote (I just closed three polls without your votes!) write "ready for date" on the title add the link to bruno's fight on the gnecromancer Ok, ok... Please. |
| MotherBast01-14-04, 06:19 AM | I was just reading over some of the posts I had skimed earlier and the one about Jindl and meld with stone caught my eye. While in that particular fight Jindl never "delayed" more than 10 rounds, there is also a rule about being forced back into the arena if an effect keeps you out of it for more than 10 rounds, wether your delaying or not. Meld with Stone'e effect has not currently been discussed as an effect that keeps one out of the arena, but I think perhaps it should be added. Otherwise a caster with Meld with stone can remain in the stone for an entire fight, casting spells without fear of ever taking any damage from the melee character he is fighting. If Jindl had remained in the stone, he could have killed me with spells without Brackin ever have having a chance to even attack him. In this case he didn't simply because his buffs made him a sure win in melee. Another option to concider is making the arena floor off limits for meld with stone. The rocks and columns then being the only options for the spell. This limits the use of the spell somewhat, but more importanly gives intellegent Melees a chance, though a small one, of actually being able to deal with the stone the caster has melded with. No beef with Jindl for his tactics in our last fight though. It was completly legal and much as I expected. I really though Brackin could survive more than a single round in melle though..... |
| Caterane01-14-04, 06:21 AM | @Cat - yeah, Harvey is running now... I thought you wanted to challenge the Elder? Sure Jindl. I`m running. That`s because the Elder is unbeatable :rolleyes: I just challenged you because I didn`t want to sit out and your grandpa was the only one to fight. Ok, I change my challenge from Rito to the Elder. |
| Jindl01-14-04, 08:36 AM | Originally posted by Caterane Sure Jindl. I`m running. That`s because the Elder is unbeatable :rolleyes: I just challenged you because I didn`t want to sit out and your grandpa was the only one to fight. Ok, I change my challenge from Rito to the Elder. Didn't you and Mo both just write challenge stuff on the RP thread? Wouldn't be right to change your challenge back again. Go ahead and fight Rito. (PS: I was just giving ya sh!t anyway :D ) -Jindl |
| JonahBlack01-14-04, 09:07 AM | @MotherBast The sig is from the fourth season episode "A New Man". Buffy is meeting Professor Walsh for the first time: Walsh: I think you'll find the results of our operation most impressive. Agent Finn here alone has killed or captured — how many is it? Riley: Seventeen. Eleven vampires, six demons. Buffy: Oh. Wow. I mean that's... seventeen. (cut to Buffy and Riley walking across campus) Riley: But you killed the... You did the thing with that... You drowned! And the snake?! Not to mention daily slayage of... Wow. Buffy: It's no big, really. Hey, who wants ice cream? Riley: Buffy. When I saw you stop the world from, you know, ending, I just assumed that was a big week for you. It turns out I suddenly find myself needing to know the plural of apocalypse. Edit: Grimlock is ready! |
| JonahBlack01-14-04, 09:23 AM | @Rosella - I was checking out my competition at 3rd level, and I think I noticed an error on Ilene. At 3rd level, you should have 2700gp total, but you have 3700 spent (2500 on a +1 weapon). Figured I'd let you know before fight time came and the mod ignored your main weapon. |
| Moherajikuyx01-14-04, 09:25 AM | Originally posted by Jindl Didn't you and Mo both just write challenge stuff on the RP thread? "Uh oh" actually was for Rito to not accept the challenge. That level is likely going to be odd, and I have the higher number of players, and Iron is out of play from a huge time. |
| Jindl01-14-04, 10:45 AM | @MotherBast - Eh, sorry about that, might've been a little overkill on that one. One thing to mention about meld into stone, you cannot see out of the stone. That means that while you can summon creatures to fight for you, there's no way to target your opponent with offensive spells. In our fight, Nox shouldn't have been affected by the animal growth, because I couldn't see him to target him. So, meld into stone has its own limitations. It is a great defensive spell for a summoner, or for someone who needs to buff. But I notice that Bilo has himself a scroll: rock to mud... :rolleyes: Better luck with Ebelin :D -Jindl |
| Tharkos01-14-04, 10:58 AM | Originally posted by Jindl One thing to mention about meld into stone, you cannot see out of the stone. That means that while you can summon creatures to fight for you, there's no way to target your opponent with offensive spells. In our fight, Nox shouldn't have been affected by the animal growth, because I couldn't see him to target him. So, meld into stone has its own limitations. IMO you cant see inside the stone as well (isnt in the spell description, but thats common sense again) ... anything other than stone that is ... and thus cant read scrolls and I have mixed feelings about being able to drink potions because you "share the space" with the stone and thus the stone would prevent the liquid from reaching your stomach (assuming thats where the magical properties start working). |
| MotherBast01-14-04, 11:37 AM | About potions and the stomach, back last year sometime a question was in the FAQ about skelatons "drinking" potions. The answer was the effect of a magic potion does not depend on injestion at all, and the simple act of poring into your body activates the spell. You could, theoraticly, pore a potion into your mouth, discharging the spell, and then spit out the non-magical liquid. In the case of the skelaton, it was stated that the potions effect would resolve as the liquid slid through the bones of the skelaton and to the ground. In the case of the meld with stone effect, something similar would probably be ruled. Typicaly, unless an effect states that it specificaly prevents an action you could otherwise take, then it dosen't prevent that action. In the case of Meld with stone, since it dosen't specificaly state it prevents the drinking of potions or reading of scrolls, then it dosen't. Just like reading a scroll when your invisable. Even though your scroll is invisable, your still assumed to be able to read it, even though the spell dosen't say you can see yourself or your own gear. |
| Moherajikuyx01-14-04, 12:01 PM | I concur with MB about the potions. Though I have the feeling that meld should be treated like the other ways to make time pass while in the arena: 10 rounds then dm-chosen penalty. I thought you did too Jindl, didn't you give Iron a little penalty in the megagrandpa fight exactly for that reason? (and I felt it was right, reading) In Ebelin vs. Moon moon I noticed that the grappling attackers always use the highest attack bonus when grappling, but they should use the normal bab sequence (-5, -10, -15). In this case, it luckily balances out as both do the same. |
| Jindl01-14-04, 12:16 PM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx I concur with MB about the potions. Though I have the feeling that meld should be treated like the other ways to make time pass while in the arena: 10 rounds then dm-chosen penalty. I thought you did too Jindl, didn't you give Iron a little penalty in the megagrandpa fight exactly for that reason? (and I felt it was right, reading) Aye, MotherBast has it right. On the 10 rounds, yes, I think meld should follow that rule as well. But isn't the rule "10 rounds without taking an offensive action"? So, summoning a creature to attack your opponent is an offensive action, right? Originally posted by Moherajikuyx In Ebelin vs. Moon moon I noticed that the grappling attackers always use the highest attack bonus when grappling, but they should use the normal bab sequence (-5, -10, -15). In this case, it luckily balances out as both do the same. I think you are right. Skymoon should have had a -5 applied to all of his 2nd grapple checks in the fight. Sorry about that. I don't think this would have really changed the outcome, however. -Jindl PS: How much time do I have to update the Elder prior to pairings? And, please give me exactly 2 fights this week to moderate... |
| Tharkos01-14-04, 12:27 PM | Wasnt the 10 rounds limit to prevent people from hiding forever ? Having a summoned creature attack your opponent does NOT lift that limit IMO. Otherwise people will start having summoned microscopic bees or otherwise hard to kill (because hard to find) stuff to make some "fake attacks" for them while spending 200 rounds inside stone or wherever to buff / regenerate / call their agent / have a nap (with or without girlfriend) / or all of the above ... |
| Jindl01-14-04, 01:08 PM | Nearly all summon spells have a duration of 1 rnd / lvl. To avoid the 10 round penalty you would need to cast 1 every 10 rounds. So, unless a caster planned on casting all of his spells as low-level summons, he couldn't remain in the stone that long. And if he did, then when the time was up and he came out of the stone, his opponent would likely kick his butt (cuz he would have used all his spells on the summons.) Don't forget that you can easily find the melded stone with detect magic, and there are lots of nasty things you can do to someone melded into stone... -Jindl |
| Caterane01-14-04, 01:18 PM | Eb vs Sky: In R15 he would not have escaped my grapple. It`s difficult to say what would have happened after that because the grapple sequence was interupted for a long time after that. Originally posted by Chicken-leg Jindl :D : Didn't you and Mo both just write challenge stuff on the RP thread? Wouldn't be right to change your challenge back again. Go ahead and fight Rito. So you reject??? :turkey: :rofl: |
| Moherajikuyx01-14-04, 01:21 PM | What can fighters and rogues do, that doesn't need an adamantium weapon? I think the proposal of making only the obstacles meldable into makes a lot of sense. It's not a drawback for the spellcasters - a mov action is all is needed - and we're using the arena floor mainly as soil for the spells purposes. It helps the fighters and rogues with identifiyng the foe's position. We should do that. |
| Arstimis01-14-04, 01:59 PM | Hey, I got my friend to try this core arena. His post name is Kaigan, and his character is Coralias(sp?). Anyways he doesn't have internet access at the moment, and he wanted me to ask you guys what was wrong with his character sheet. Any help would be.....well helpful |
| Magagumo01-14-04, 02:00 PM | *Sigh* Second reformatting in two days. @Moh My apologies, I actually fixed my votes before, but apparently managed to not post the changes or some such, I have the answers to 19 and 20 in bold now. As for my link to Tony's fight, I assume you wanted that in my chracter sheet? So I have it listed below Tony's name. Finally... I should have those dates up in a moment. Hope that reconciles these things which stand between us ;) On Meld w/ Stone: I approve of Jindl's tactic, as he was taking some form of action that prolonged the fight (Summons give the other glad something to do) and there are many ways to deal harsh repurcussions to the user of this trick (Rock to Mud being one of them). However, Moh's idea of keeping it to the obstacles is a fair one, so those porr ppl w/o detect magic have a chance to find you and hold an action or such. |
| kattattack2201-14-04, 02:25 PM | @Arstimis - I believe he just needs to change the font to courier new on his character sheet. Once I did that last week I was eligiable for the pairings. |
| Wizard01-14-04, 02:46 PM | Well crap. I found the fight, Jindl---sorry I missed it the first time. On every roll that made a difference, I received the worst possible result. Oh well, I'll be level 2 after next fight, win or lose. |
| Arstimis01-14-04, 03:07 PM | Thanks katattakc I'll tell him to do it when he gets home |
| Caterane01-14-04, 03:26 PM | Vandaeris challenges Jagath Kir The Harvester`s 2nd avatar challenges Laness DeVille Accept or do the Jindl? |
| Jindl01-14-04, 03:31 PM | Okay, I'm a little confused. Did Harvester challenge Rito? Did Rito accept the challenge? Did Harvester challenge the Elder? If the Harvester isn't fighting Rito, then the Elder will certainly accept his challenge. -Jindl |
| Caterane01-14-04, 03:43 PM | I challenged Rito but then someone posted a chicken and I changed my mind. @Mo: The Elder accepted my challenge. |
| Moherajikuyx01-14-04, 04:00 PM | Mag - :thumbsup: Meld w/ Stone: I'm ok with that, summoners may stay inside but rock=obstacles only. I think it's a proper compromise. Anyone against? Just that we're talking of that, let's say that the thing below is just soil. It's purposedly vague: on any fight, mods can decide if it's permafrosted tundra or if the temperature raising melted it :D Arena news: check the roster! :bounce: (at the bottom...) :invasion: |
| Caterane01-14-04, 04:08 PM | Mag + Jindl = :love: ? And I thought Jindl is a guy!? :pile: |
| Tharkos01-14-04, 04:29 PM | Originally posted by Caterane The Harvester`s 2nd avatar challenges Laness DeVille Accept or do the Jindl? Somewhere in a big city a beautiful gir ... errr woman is sitting in front of a mirror and puts away a parchment with a bold challenge. Hmmm, it doesnt really matter who I am going to fight now so it might as well be that mysterious ugly fellow with the horse stable. Life is just full of challenges and I am here to learn whatever I can. With that she returns to combing her hair ... CHALLENGE ACCEPTED |
| Caterane01-14-04, 05:15 PM | @Tharkos: Cool! @Mo: No pairings today? Meld into stone: I agree with the pillars being the only target of the spell and a 10 rounds duration limit. @Snark: Why`s Bilo not ready? Please not Sky vs Jindl again :rolleyes: @Jindl: Sorry about all the joking today ;) |
| Tellish_of_Ket01-14-04, 06:24 PM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx In Ebelin vs. Moon moon I noticed that the grappling attackers always use the highest attack bonus when grappling, but they should use the normal bab sequence (-5, -10, -15). In this case, it luckily balances out as both do the same. Then you haven't read my fights that i've moded with grappling. I always use the negative for bab with multiple attacks. The aggressor suffers bab penalty while the defender does not. Tellish |
| sshuit01-14-04, 06:29 PM | Just noticed Voliana is not on the roster. Could that be changed :) Sshuit |
| MotherBast01-14-04, 06:30 PM | I have a question that I think might merit some discussion. For Drakiel's 3rd level feat I was planning to take Eschew Materials. I was then planning to take Natural Spell at 6th. The reason for this is of course to be able to cast while in Animal form. In my own games, I don't allow Druids to cast any spell with Material Componets or Divine Focus while Wildshaped without Eschew Materials. The reason being of course that the needed Materials or Focus would be melded with the form. And even if they weren't, hands capable of manipulation are needed for spells requiring Material Componets. The only type of animals with hands "capable of manipulating" the materials would be primates, as only they have the thumbs necessary. However, I have noticed in Jindl's last few fights he has cast spells while in animal form without the Eschew materials feat. I was just wondering if I am alone in my assumption that Eschew materials would be needed for casting in animal form. If I am, then I wish to know ahead of time before wasting a feat on what would be a worthless feat if I was. I would espicaly like to get an opinion from Jindl on this, and here your logic behind casting spells without the feat. With a good reason I'd be more than willing to take something else for my 3rd level feat and step up the builds feat tree a few levels. Then, I haven't gone back and checked to see if all the spells you cast actually had Material componets. With all the spells you cast in the fight against Brackin I just assumed one of them was bound to need componets. If they were all componetless, I guess I'll just stick with EM, cause it would just be to much work otherwise. ;) [edit] a brief skim through the spells revels that few Druid Spells have any Material Componets, though a few notable ones are Cat's Grace, Bear's Endurence, and Bull's Strength, which all do. A number of Druid spells require some type of focus, and many requre a Divine Focus. Jindl cast both Cat's Grace and Bull's Strength in the fight with Brackin after wildshaping into a bear. A bear is certanly not capable of manipulating cat hair. I didn't check to see if any of the spells needed focus of any kind, but at least a coulple probably did. |
| Jindl01-14-04, 08:10 PM | @MotherBast - Heh, I had to tell Snark the same thing when he was modding the fight. Please re-read the Natural spell feat. It specifically says you may access material components and focuses, even if they are melded into your form :D Eschew materials is a waste of time for a druid. @Mo - Both the Elder and Jindl are updated, with challenges made / accepted. Iku is sitting out this week, while I decide whether to bump or retire him. -Jindl |
| Alterlat01-14-04, 08:20 PM | @Caterane: Well, Jagath was really looking forward to pulverising the dwarf, but fortunately he enjoys hunting humans as well. Challenge accepted. |
| MotherBast01-14-04, 09:12 PM | Jindl, outstanding! Natural Spell is 3 feats in one! Thanks for saving me a feat. That is a big change from the 3.0 version, which didn't allow that. Now I have to change all my Druid builds I've ever dreamed up! |
| SnarkHunter01-14-04, 10:09 PM | hoo ha. As far as I know Bilo is 100% ready to go and anxious for a re-match :). In other news I had always assumed that the defender always got his full grapple check. Where are the rules on this, it comes uo kinda of a lot ya know.\ Hoo ha, lets do some pairings. Speaking of Mo: Hanz is ready to go! |
| Moherajikuyx01-15-04, 06:22 AM | Ehm, ToK, isn't it what I said? Snark, yes, the defender has the full bonus, but the attacker is not who began the grappling: it's who is doing grapple actions. Maybe this is the confusion? PAIRINGS UNDER COURSE! NO EDITING FROM NOW!! |
| Tharkos01-15-04, 08:40 AM | Natural Spell is also the most broken feat in 3.5 and the reason why Druids are UBER because its Still Spell, Silent Spell, Eschew Materials for ZERO extra levels added all in one. |
| Moherajikuyx01-15-04, 10:04 AM | Ta daaan - PAIRINGS DONE! We won a day over last week, if we're as good this week we'll be right on time for the next one!! :) |
| Jindl01-15-04, 10:52 AM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Hanz Vonnegut, SnarkHunter vs. Sir Zippy and Sir Roger, sshuit: sshuit Um, Mo? Do you really want sshuit to mod his own fight :D ? -Jindl |
| Tharkos01-15-04, 11:03 AM | Hehe, well Laness has to fight Ilene AGAIN ... that would be 2 fights out of her total 3 fights ... and its even the same Moderator: Caterane ... |
| Moherajikuyx01-15-04, 11:30 AM | sshh.... |
| Ethendril01-15-04, 12:04 PM | @ Wizard and kattattack22: I only have time on Friday or Monday to run your fight, so if you don't get everything to me on Friday, I'll have to run it Monday. No pressure though. -Ethendril |
| Caterane01-15-04, 12:16 PM | Same goes for me: Tactics until Saturday morning (preferably friday) where I run the fights regardless of non-sent ones. |
| Jindl01-15-04, 12:59 PM | Originally posted by Caterane Same goes for me: Tactics until Saturday morning (preferably friday) where I run the fights regardless of non-sent ones. @ MAGAGUMO - I wanted to make sure you saw this ... since your tactics are ALWAYS late. :D |
| Ethendril01-15-04, 02:05 PM | @ MotherBast: Tactics sent for Dusk. @kattattack22: Tactics received for Lucius. |
| Magagumo01-15-04, 05:17 PM | Heh, I'll have you know I've already been checking on tactics Jindl :) And yes, yes they are always late... Iblame my desire to pas classes and to spend time with my gf ;) And Cat, what is this percieved liason between Jindl & I? Moh, I sent you an email regarding our fight run by Cat, get back to me ASAP on that, but I will work on tactics w/o the info till then. |
| Ethendril01-15-04, 05:39 PM | On leadership, the FAQ states the following: Death of a cohort (in the arena, even if it's the foe's fault): -2 cumulative This is incorrect. A few thoughts: The DMG says "Caused" the death of a cohort, not just "Death of a cohort." I think this is significant against applying a cumulative -2 modifier. If a lawful good character has a cohort fighting against the minions of the lich queen who dies, I'm sure that other righteous followers would willingly take his place. Second, are we really going to cripple the underpowered leadership feat even more? At 6th level when one could take this feat (especially since classed cohorts are not allowed), the 12 hp companion you could pick with leadership would go down pretty quickly, and my next ally would be even worse, destroying this feat. Furthermore, no other method of gaining an ally penalizes you like this when it dies. You just get another one. If my cohort dies by my side in the arena helping me fight, I haven't "caused" his death. I tried to "prevent" it. EDIT: from dictionary.com, definition of "cause" 1. The producer of an effect, result, or consequence. 2. The one, such as a person, event, or condition, that is responsible for an action or result. @Motherbast: do you have a list of some of the weak allies you can get at 6th level with leadership? EDIT: I see you posted it...THANKS MOTHERBAST! |
| Caterane01-15-04, 06:01 PM | I have to agree with Ethendril - whoever he might be :D JOKE!!! A wizard need not wait another year to replace his familiar too. Some rules have to be adapted. What if I "caused the death" for the 5th time? Then I only get a 1st level lamer while I have to fight 10th level foes thus having wasted a feat the way a fighter would waste it by picking spell focus. Another argument is that we repair broken items for free. We made this rule to prevent damaging the foe beyond the current fight. A leadership ally is nothing else. If I know my foe gets a permanent penalty if I kill his cohort then I will do so. Just remember the times when familiars were the most hunted creatures in the arena... |
| Arstimis01-15-04, 06:21 PM | @Wizard: Tactics for Kiowen have been sent........EDIT: umm...oops, haha i could have sworn Wizard was my mod. Sorry Wizard, just delete my email when you get it. @Mercy: You are my mod and tactics have been sent |
| MotherBast01-15-04, 06:56 PM | At level 6 the folloing Cohorts are available. (assuming you have a maxed out Leadership score) Bugbear: 16hp, neutral (ecl 4) Dretch (deamon): 13hp, Chaotic/evil (ecl 4) Dwarf: 6hp, lawful/good (ecl 1) Duergar: 9hp, Lawful/evil (ecl 2) Elf: 4hp, Chaotic/good (ecl 1) Drow: 4hp, Neutral/evil (ecl 3) Githyanki: 6hp, Evil (ecl 3) Githzerai: 5hp, neutral (ecl 3) Gnoll: 11hp, Chaotic/evil (ecl 3) Gnome: 6hp, neutral/good (ecl 1) Svirfneblin: 8hp, neutral (ecl 4) Goblin: 5hp, neutral/evil (ecl 1) Halfling: 5hp, neutral (ecl 1) Hobgoblin: 6hp, lawful/evil (ecl 2) Kobold: 4hp, lawful/evil (ecl 1) Krenshar: 11hp, neutral (ecl 4) Lizardfolk: 11hp, neutral (ecl 3) Locathah: 9hp, neutral (ecl 3) Merfolk: 6hp, neutral (ecl 2) Orc: 5hp, Chaotic/evil (ecl 1) Assimar: 5hp, good (ecl 2) Tiefling: 5hp, evil (ecl 2) Sahuagin: 11hp, lawful/evil (ecl 4) Grig: 2hp, neutral good (ecl 3 and 1/2) Nixie: 3hp, neutral (ecl 4) Troglodyte: 13hp, chaotic/evil (ecl 4) A note: of the above, all except the Dretch and Krenshar are huminoids who actually contain 1 level of warrior, which is a class. This is not allowed by our rules as writen, but since Hanz has a Bugbear cohort, I am assuming the 1 warrior level all humanoid classes begin with is allowed for cohorts. Still, only the Dretch and Krenshar could possably "advance" as you level, as none of the others can have non-classed hitdie beyond what they already have. The highest HP cohort a 6th level character can have is 16 (bugbear). Might I suggest you instead take a Heavy War-horse. It has 30 HP, more than any cohort you could attain at even 9th level, and has better attacks than any cohort you could attain untill 8th. Don't take leadership till 9th level, unless our rules on it change sometime soon. Only take it at 9th level if you can't think of anything better. Even toughness might be better, as at 9th level the best cohort your looking at is a giant eagle or owl. Also, about the -2 when a cohort dies. I belive we had decided to go with Jindl's proposal that cohort death in the arena would not result in any leadership penalty, because the cohort knew his life was in danger. However, every character would always have a -2 leadership penalty because of the dangerous nature of the arena. I belive everyone who commented on this proposal agreed with it and I think MO did as well, but it isen't reflected in the rules at the moment. |
| Ethendril01-15-04, 07:04 PM | Thanks for the list, MB... It's even worse than I had thought...maybe I will reconsider taking leadership. Do you think it ever becomes worthwhile (at higher levels)? -Ethendril |
| Mercy01-15-04, 07:29 PM | Originally posted by Arstimis @Mercy: You are my mod and tactics have been sent Arstimis I sent you an email regarding your tactics for Kiowen, that you should read. |
| Arstimis01-15-04, 07:59 PM | Originally posted by Mercy Arstimis I sent you an email regarding your tactics for Kiowen, that you should read. I got it and read it. Thank you for telling me my stupid mistake....i sent it back. Again, thanks |
| Tharkos01-15-04, 08:17 PM | At this point in time it is probably more effective to buy a trained griffon for 8500gp instead of spending a feat on it and you even get the FREE RES as well. Heck even with our usual "MW Animal Handlers whistle" and Laness' CHA bonus of +5 it might be possible for her to do the DC 25 training herself at around level 7-9 and give her a powerful ally compared to the cohorts available through leadership. Handle Animal doesnt even have a maximum HD limit, so with enough bonuses (CHA, Skill Focus feat and tool) you could train an animal with more HD than yourself (DC 15+HD). At higher levels there are many creatures which have abilities that can make them worthwile even though they have lower hp/HD than a comparable animal / monster (such as a Griffon) trained with HA. But even then its not that easy for a cohort to survive. |
| Jindl01-15-04, 08:37 PM | I hope everyone who is discussing the "weakness" of leadership, will go to the polls thread and vote yes on #20a, to allow advanced and classed creatures as cohorts. The stuff you are talking about is the exact reason why I suggested this in the first place. Please make sure you vote. Right now, the vote is slightly in favor of allowing classed/advanced cohorts ... but it is by no means a solidified approval. Certainly a dwarven cleric 4 will make a great cohort at PC level 6 ... -Jindl |
| Tharkos01-15-04, 09:27 PM | Question 20 in the polls is only asking if we should allow advanced monsters and NOT about classed cohorts, so at this time classes are out of the question for cohorts. Monster advancement does not include classes, just basic HDs or better stats. |
| Jindl01-15-04, 10:06 PM | Well, some creatures advance by character class. But, you're right. Question #20 should specifically say that it allows advanced and classed cohorts. @Mo - would you edit question #20 to allow advanced and classed cohorts? -Jindl |
| MotherBast01-15-04, 10:41 PM | Indeed, it is about time we actually get around to voting on the "classed cohort" issue. We have been kicking it around for a while. Alowing "advanced" creatures as cohorts is a small step in the right direction, but only very very small. After all, 3 HD of advancemt for a creature only adds 1 to its CR. So even a level 9, advancing your cohort you attained at level 6 at every level, it would still only have 5 HD, and be only CR 2, and probably still not as good as a horse. A classed cohort however could have 7HD and be CR 7, equal in CR to the animals and undead being attained at level 9. Currently, we aren't even voting on the "classed cohort" issue. I belive we need to have this resolved by next weeks parings to allow for those who have or wish to take leadership to decide where or not to remove that feat from concederation. Under the current rules, I would not advise ever taking leadership, Ethendril. Just dump 8 points in HA, buy a MW tool, and have at least +2 Cha and you can traid a 12HD animal. You can acomplish this by level 5 with Handle Animal. With leadership, you can't attain a 12 HD cohort untill level 19. That is when the mighty Sphinx becomes available, at CR 9. It is the best possible cohort under current rules. So NO, don't take leadership at 6th. Take toughness instead. Its way better. |
| Tharkos01-15-04, 11:01 PM | Hmmm ... it seems we have two choices ... actually three if you count not changing anything ... now: 1. Allow classed cohorts for leadership to make that feat worth taking or 2. put some penalty on the use of bought horses and trained animals and disallow the use of classed cohorts. "Penalties" could include adding the same max HD limit to these creatures as it exists for leadership. Thus you could get a Light Horse at level 5 and a Heavy Warhorse at level 6 ... A Druids class ability would not be changed in any way, same as the Paladins special mount. The reason for not allowing classed cohorts was to keep the workload for the moderators down to a minimum and since the characters are getting ever higher in level now this seems ever more relevant. Keeping track of a ton of buffs isnt going to get easier if there are two casters per side now instead of one, even though half of them are two levels lower than the others. As of now I would vote for option 2 ... @MB The DC for training a wild animal (which would include the more powerful stuff) is 15+HD .... so you could "only" get a 7 HD creature for your mentioned bonus of +12. Non-animal INT 2 creatures are trainable too, but these have a DC modifier of +5 .... |
| MotherBast01-15-04, 11:24 PM | I'll take your word for it Tharkos. I thought it was 10 from memory, but I haven't ever used the skill before. Still, anyone who focused on Handle Animal could easly stay ahead of anything leadership could ever provide. As far as penalizing Perchased or trained mount users, I don't really like this option. One reason is it makes the very popular Mounted Combat builds much less viable. Two, mostly only newer characters will actually be hurt by this. Currently only Iron actually has a reared mount, or is concedering one. Three, it just makes Undead usesers that much more powerful, as they still aren't facing any limits. I think in the end it comes down to this. Under current rules, A reared animal of a 9th level character would be around CR 7 (megaraptor). The Skelly allies are also CR 7 (the giant). A classed cohort of a level 9 character is also CR 7. A Druid or Pally allie would probably also rank in the CR 7 area. No golems have been built as of yet but a flesh golem (the weakest one) is also CR 7, and they can climb as high as CR 16, one lower than the CR 17 atainable with Classed Cohorts. Simply by allowing Classed cohorts, we will reestablish balance in the allie area. Not only that, it will be by removing a house rule, and not adding one. |
| Magagumo01-15-04, 11:25 PM | Hey, one note on the whole cohort thing, is that we havent been giving these guys elite stats. Just a thought, but I think giving those monsters a 25 point buy (especially if we are kicking about a classed system, which is based on the monsters reciving "elite" stats, i.e. 25 buy) would help things out a bit. Snark's bugebear could do much better for himself if he actually had the elite stats and equipment that a cohort of 4th level is supposed to recieve. I would adamantly recommend we incorporate this rule, as we are definitively screweing over people who take Leadership if we do not actually alow their cohorts to be as powerful as they should be. Remember, a base race cohort would have had elite stats and normal equipment, so why arent the other creatures? I agree that we should disregard the "caused death" rule, good point on the lich queen, Ethendril :) |
| Jindl01-16-04, 12:00 AM | @ToK - tactics recieved for Hurtz and Kelek (in the same Private Message). Tactics sent for the Elder. @MotherBast - Tactics for Jindl coming soon... @ All - I will be out of town Friday night through Sunday afternoon, and will not be running my fights until Sunday night or Monday. @ my Mod's : If you have any questions about my tactics, you need to tell me before I leave tomorrow, or wait until Sunday night. -Jindl |
| JonahBlack01-16-04, 01:08 AM | @Magagumo - I sent Tactics for Grimlock v. Herrix 2. It's very late, and I'm typing in the dark on a laptop, so the whole thing might be incomprehensible. If you have questions, email me, and I'll try to look at it early tomorrow. |
| Pitlords01-16-04, 05:17 AM | Originally posted by Ethendril from dictionary.com, definition of "cause" 2. The one, such as a person, event, or condition, that is responsible for an action or result. You're responsible for your cohort. This is pretty clear. If you guys want to remove an house rule let's not add another instead. I'm adding the poll on the classed cohorts. I must insist on the advanced animals. No one is saying a word about why the advanced animals are overpowered and the classed cohorts are not. I'd rather have a dire bear than an advanced dire boar, especially if we don't allow it to the point of gaining a size increment. |
| Tharkos01-16-04, 06:44 AM | I am totally opposed to point buys for monsters gained through leadership and animals gained through HA or Druid special ability for a simple reason: Since these creatures dont cast spells they dont actually need INT, WIS & CHA and thus you either end up with everything put into STR, CON or DEX. This will again create pretty overpowered creatures even if they only get 25 points. CHA - neither creatures nor animals need this so no one will ever put any points here, WIS - might be useful to put in spare points to keep up the Will save, but not much more, INT - animals need to be kept at INT 2 to be trainable at all, DEX - well I dont think this is a good stat either since the purpose of animals and monster cohorts is pure offense, CON - second most useful stat to put in any points, STR - the winner with the most points since this directly affects the combat performance. So for a 25 point buy monster my theoretical Bugbear would look like this: STR 20 (10), DEX 15 (3), CON 16 (6), INT 10 (2), WIS 10 (2), CHA 6 (0) Too much STR for a medium sized 3 HD non-important creature IMO. With non-important I mean the fact that it is just the "buddy" of the gladiator and not the gladiator himself. Since animals trained with Handle Animal dont have a maximum HD cap like Leadership they could give much more broken results if they were to be allowed any sort of advancement. There might be one other way to keep Leadership special and that might be removing the free Resurrection from and animals trained with HA or simply bought (such as riding horses). That way loosing these special creatures in a fight will be costly (either money or time to get a new one) and prevent sacrificial attack orders. Making monsters in any way customizeable is a bad move to try and create balance because that would increase the workload of moderators too much in the wrong part and it will also help to shift the focus away from the gladiator himself. Whoever comes up with the most powerful monster buddy has a serious advantage. We need to lower the importance of these creatures and not increase it. We need to change things though, because with the current rules "Skill Focus: Handle Animal" (or even "Skill Focus: Diplomacy" because you could create allies this way without any DC-modifier for HD !!!) is wayyyyy more powerful than "Leadership". |
| MotherBast01-16-04, 07:21 AM | I agree that allowing 25 point buy is not a good idea for cohorts. Instead, classed cohorts should have points distrubited the way the DMG lists for that class. All other forms of allies are "standard" so leadership should continue this trend. Allowing only standard DMG cohorts also ensures the cohort will never overshadow the Gladiator. This would also make cohorts easer to check than a monster with even 1 HD advancemnt. All the mod would need to do is turn to the page in the DMG the particual cohort class is listed on and check to see if its stats/skills/spells match the stats/skills/spells listed in the DMG. The only difference might be in the form of Equipment changes, as currently the cohort comes without any method of income, or any gear of its own. The only time any actuall checking would be required is when the cohort has two or more classes, and the mod would need to add stats from two or more lists. That would be the hardest part of checking cohorts that used DMG stats. Allowing DMG classed cohorts only also prevents a gladiator from creating a cohort that is built to exactly cover a weakness in the gladiator's build or to exactly complement a strength. It would still be possible to attain a cohort that complemented or compensated, but not to build one for exactly that purpose. We have already voted to not allow advancement or customazation for Handeled animals, or undead. If we then allow it for cohorts we create an imbalence where the same creature would have different stats if aquired by different gladiators. We voted 9 to 2 against advanced stuff, so lets not open that can with leadership now. Besides, if will allow classed cohorts, the desire for advanced monster cohorts disapears. If we allow classed cohorts, and I am sure the vote is going to go that way, then I suggest we limit them to the progeression listed in the DMG both for balence and simplicity. |
| sshuit01-16-04, 08:29 AM | re : classed cohorts. Ugh. The mod in me is screaming "Noooooooo!" :( |
| Tharkos01-16-04, 09:54 AM | Originally posted by sshuit re : classed cohorts. Ugh. The mod in me is screaming "Noooooooo!" :( Thats why I would advise NERFING of Handle Animal (and Diplomacy) and buyable mounts as well. Using the same "max HD/level" limit as for the Leadership feat would be an option, as would be removing the free resurrection. I would take both of these .... |
| Jindl01-16-04, 10:25 AM | Diplomacy is NOT an allowed method of acquiring an ally. -Jindl @ Tharkos - Your bugbear example's Dex should be 13, not 15. |
| MotherBast01-16-04, 10:31 AM | Ok, Dusk vs. Smushy done. The clasic battle of good vs. evil played out once again on the arena stage. This particual time the battle lasted 61 rounds. I will have the fight posted in two hours or so, still mulling over the storyline. |
| barrel_master01-16-04, 11:24 AM | A few comments concerning the topics at hand. 1. Classed cohorts are a massive amount of work so I'm against them. 2. A point buy would also create more work for mods so I'm against that too. 3. I think handle animal is okay as is. |
| Moherajikuyx01-16-04, 12:10 PM | I fear that this time the house rule is the best way: I'm liking the "max HD as leadership for handleds and corpses" more and more. As is, handleds are dangerous, even if not advanced. A really handle-orientated character - say a druid with max cha and some appropriate items - will have the option of gaining a HUGE - and I really say HUGE - CR animal (or even magic beast or aberration) even at lvl 2. And at lvl 5 he would not care about his other lousy abilities... Granted, he has to tame it. But a lucky spell, and it's all done... (The same with corpses) [Edit] Example: lvl 2 human druid, 5 ranks, +4 cha +2 normal item +2 feat +3 feat. Can handle a basilisk, a six headed hydra or an elephant.... With no magic items... |
| Jindl01-16-04, 01:12 PM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Example: lvl 2 human druid, 5 ranks, +4 cha +2 normal item +2 feat +3 feat. Can handle a basilisk, a six headed hydra or an elephant.... With no magic items... Of course, that druid would have put all of his abilities/feats/wealth into doing this, and would be a very ineffective character. I say ineffective, because with his character arranged this way, he could not beat this creature in a monster fight. Thus, the monster fight limits how early you can handle a powerful creature, regardless of your skill check. And even if he did tame the beast, the druid himself could still be easily killed in a PvP fight, especially if his opponent can buy a potion of fly and make ranged attacks. -Jindl @ MotherBast - tactics sent via PM for Jindl (in two parts). |
| MotherBast01-16-04, 01:55 PM | The fight is posted, took loger than I expected. I think both gladiators will like it. About the HA topic, I agree with Jindl that the system we are useing now is limiting enough for Handled animles and Undead. The real issue isn't weakening these abilitys, but incressing the effectivness of leadership so a to be on par with them. As far as Mod workload is concerned, that is why I proposed the rule about only allowing classed cohorts to be as present in the DMG. This means all the mod has to do is check the book and see if it matches. Exactly the same as with a monster. In battle, the DMG cohorts would be limited to what a typical NPC of its kind could do in any D&D game, and in my games the players fight NPCs way more often than monsters. As a matter of fact, I remember reading that the most common type of foe in D&D was a human, so it seems most games are this way. We should all be familure with running a typical NPC barbarian or wizard by now, so DMG classed cohorts shouldn't be much more diffucult than running a monster. While Candy would much rather have a costom built cohort, I understand the workload retraints, and also that no other class gets to customize there companions, so Candy is willing to settle for DMG classed cohorts in the name of balance. |
| Tharkos01-16-04, 02:03 PM | Originally posted by Jindl Of course, that druid would have put all of his abilities/feats/wealth into doing this, and would be a very ineffective character. I say ineffective, because with his character arranged this way, he could not beat this creature in a monster fight. Thus, the monster fight limits how early you can handle a powerful creature, regardless of your skill check. And even if he did tame the beast, the druid himself could still be easily killed in a PvP fight, especially if his opponent can buy a potion of fly and make ranged attacks. -Jindl @ MotherBast - tactics sent via PM for Jindl (in two parts). The point of all this isnt the poor low level character, but rather those medium level characters who can afford to get a one shot magic items to get a monster to train with their HA skill. Those characters will most likely get a monster (Hydra, Basilisk, Gorgon, Bulette, Dire Animal, Frost Worm, Purple Worm, Rust Monster, Roc) which can have very high hit points. Once you have one medium quality monster you can send that one on the more advanced monster during a monster fight and they only have to make up the difference in their comparable power level. For a gladiatorial fight they themselves just need countermeasures for enchantments, Invisibility and can send the monster after the opponent with a simple "ATTACK" (and point in the direction) order. After that its just sit and watch and counter any evasive actions performed by the opponent. Some people might call that tactic, but I would call it junk because it isnt useable for any "regular roleplaying". A simple "charm monster" (duration 1 day/level) spell should be enough to do the trick of winning against such a creature ... wayyy too cheap if you design your character to use this "tactic". If you think HA is acceptable as it is now you shouldnt compain when I start using Diplomacy with Laness to talk people into fighting for her ... high level (higher than she is herself) people ... errr creatures. Those will be the creatures with higher INT and thus smarter tactics themselves of course. EDIT: All these "complaints" about HA are made because anyone with high enough bonuses can train a super-monster which shouldnt be possible with just a skill. Druids and Rangers have their class abilities and should be able to use them to do this, but no one else should have the same effectiveness as they have. |
| MotherBast01-16-04, 02:03 PM | Jindl, I hope I catch you before you leave. In your tactics you make refference to the "huge central obstical." That obstical was a proposal for making Init less important. In the polls we voted aginst actions to make init less important so the central obstical idea was put on the backburner and never brought up again. Basicly, it isen't currently allowed. If this is going to change anything about your tactics let me know now. [edit] as pointed out by Jindl before, under our current rules Diplomacy can not be used to aquire an allie. Also, Charm animal and other "mind control" effects can not be used to attain allies or win fights unless the duration of said spell is permanit. |
| Jindl01-16-04, 02:17 PM | Originally posted by MotherBast Jindl, I hope I catch you before you leave. In your tactics you make refference to the "huge central obstical." That obstical was a proposal for making Init less important. In the polls we voted aginst actions to make init less important so the central obstical idea was put on the backburner and never brought up again. Basicly, it isen't currently allowed. If this is going to change anything about your tactics let me know now. Noted. My tactics remain the same. @Mo - please remove the "huge central obstacle" from the arena map, if it has been voted against. -Jindl @ Tharkos - I see where you are coming from, but take a look at the creatures you just listed. None of them can fly. That means that all of the effort, money, skill points, and time that the character put into acquiring his ally, can be easily negated if his opponent drinks a potion of fly. You must remember, that you don't have to kill the ally to win the fight. |
| Ethendril01-16-04, 02:22 PM | The fight is posted, took loger than I expected. I think both gladiators will like it. SPOILER: I loved the battle, despite the outcome. That Smushy is one tough customer, and, I might add, the first Dragon Disciple in the arena...congrats, cellardwellar. You beat me there (and I should say, you beat me repeatedly), even though I created my character first. Dusk will be the second. -Ethendril |
| Jindl01-16-04, 02:54 PM | A little pre-amble to Jindl vs Bilo has been posted on the role-play thread... -Jindl |
| Caterane01-16-04, 04:03 PM | Finished my first fight this week. Ilene McPherson vs Laness DeVille (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2344569#post2344569) The two meet for the second time despite being only lvl 3. I doubt that they will become friends though :D Now on to Iron vs Bruno. So far I can say that one of them died by a phantasmal killer but I`ll not tell who it is :bounce: |
| Tharkos01-16-04, 04:19 PM | Originally posted by Caterane Ilene McPherson vs Laness DeVille (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2344569#post2344569) The two meet for the second time despite being only lvl 3. I doubt that they will become friends though :D As I predicted ... a pretty boring "fight" partly due to the fact that the defender is considered flat footed and thus very vulnerable. @Jindl Flying can be easily corrected with a spell and a teaching it to the trained beast ... |
| Caterane01-16-04, 04:32 PM | @Tharkos: Ilene rolled a 9 and a 6 - lousy rolls - but still hit despite rapid shot and range. She would`ve even hit you were you not flatfooted. I really had a good story in mind - something that happens when two chicks argue with each other over a lipstick but what should I do with 1 round? |
| Jindl01-16-04, 04:38 PM | Originally posted by Tharkos @Jindl Flying can be easily corrected with a spell and a teaching it to the trained beast ... You mean air walk? Well, that's only for druids or clerics, it gets expensive to cast from a scroll, and no druid would want a handled animal when they could have an animal companion. Oh yeah, and its a DC 30 (25 +5 for non-animal) handle animal check to teach the trick... So, only clerics have the ready means to give their handled animal the gift of flight, and it costs 700 gp per fight until they are 7th level and can cast it themselves. Finding a single way that one class can overcome this drawback, in no way negates what I have already said ... mainly that having a powerful ally in no way assures victory, especially if that ally is land-bound, or lacks versatility (like your bugbear example). You don't have to kill the ally to win the fight. Truly powerful allies are not combatants on their own, but rather enable the gladiator in some way (like mounts, animal companions who search out hidden foes, or familiars who deliver touch spells). Would it have mattered if Laness had a high HD ally? No. She is vulnerable to death by 2 arrows (in any round). So a high HD ally doesn't help her at all. Same goes for Mo's theoretical druid. By putting everything into handle animal, that druid would have suboptimal saves / hps, poor spellcasting, and suboptimal feats/equipment. He could easily be taken out with a scorching ray, a sleep spell, a phantasmal killer, etc... without the Ally even being involved. Even min/maxed for the highest HA possible, you still have to win the monster fight, and asssuming you do, you still have to survive against another player. I don't think its broken. -Jindl |
| Tharkos01-16-04, 04:42 PM | Originally posted by MotherBast as pointed out by Jindl before, under our current rules Diplomacy can not be used to aquire an allie. Also, Charm animal and other "mind control" effects can not be used to attain allies or win fights unless the duration of said spell is permanit. Who said anything about someone needing to be an allie to take part in the fight ? Plain bought horses arent and they take part in the arena battles, so why couldnt a "friend" take part ? They are assured a free resurrection after all so nothing bad will happen ! If someone is "willing to take risks to help you" he might as well help you in such a fight. You are right ... Diplomacy cant and wont produce something like an ally (not before epic level Diplomacy like in the ELH which doesnt apply here), but thats not what I would try to do because the intelligence and cunning of such creatures would be more useful most of the time. |
| Tharkos01-16-04, 04:55 PM | Originally posted by Jindl Would it have mattered if Laness had a high HD ally? No. She is vulnerable to death by 2 arrows (in any round). So a high HD ally doesn't help her at all. Yes it would have mattered ... because she could have had pretty good cover BEHIND A HORSE. The absense of a horse for Ilene would have changed the distance at which she would have shot and the number of them, because the horse spends its move and she has a full set of attacks as well. So as you see these allies have a huge impact on the fight even at low levels (probably even moreso because you can have a 4 HD fighting machine from level 2 for just 400gp). I dont design my characters in a way to rely upon others and thus Laness wont ever start riding anything. I will just have to take these losses and ignore them ... Arcane casters are vulnerable in low levels due to their low hps, but that doesnt mean they are weak in concept. That only starts in later levels when the flexibility takes over. So I expect to pretty much loose against any ranged attacker for quite some time ... |
| Tellish_of_Ket01-16-04, 05:26 PM | Finished with the remainder of the story with Iron/Raptor fight and continues with having Ebelin resurrected and forming a partnership to hunt down Bruno and Brackin (whom each are respectively fighting this week.) Tellish |
| Caterane01-16-04, 05:33 PM | @Tok: Good. One thing though: Ebelin is the last surviving member of his house so there`s no father of him around. I want to add some clues about living members of House Barnahdy at later levels. His father though is dead. |
| Ethendril01-16-04, 05:50 PM | @ Wizard and kattattack22: I won't be able to run your fight until Monday, as I still don't have tactics from Wizard. Don't stay up waiting... -Ethendril |
| MotherBast01-16-04, 06:00 PM | A purched mount is still an allie. Currently, the aproved methods of attaining an allie are as follows. Handle Animal (after an animal fight) Undead or other perment spell effect (after monster fight) Purchased (creatures with prices listed in MM only) Leadership And Class Feature. The diplomacy issue was brought up once before and rejected. No in game system exists for determinign the power/type of creature one could attain with diplomacy, so it was decided not to allow Diplomacy to attain arena allies. Diplomacy also had conditional modafiers, another reason it was rejected for arena use. This may change later, but for the moment the arena dosen't allow Diplomacy allies. (No vote was actually ever held, but if I remember correctly not one person actually supported the idea.) |
| Jindl01-16-04, 06:02 PM | Good story, ToK :) I'm off to the beach for the weekend. I have received tactics from ToK. Hopefully, both Mo and Mag will have sent me thier tactics by the time I return. Have a great weekend, everyone. -Jindl |
| Caterane01-16-04, 06:20 PM | @Jindl: Beach? We are in the middle of winter!? Ah, I don`t wanna know. Tactics sent for Ebelin, the Harvester and Vandaeris. Tactics received from Tharkos, Rosella and :eek: Mag!! Leadership: Even if we allow for classed cohorts the owners still had to spend a feat while animate dead is a spell and handle animal a skill, both being far cheaper than Leadership. And you don`t want to see the carnage if a cohort fights against an undead companion in a 1 on 1 match. As a mod myself, and I mod a lot *lol* I have no problem with spellcaster cohorts and the "bulk" of additional work they bring. On the contrary I even think that speeds things up because the cohort buffs the pc aswell thus cutting the buff time in half. I would also like to see more companion choices. Undead and animals are the only ones so far but there are so many so cool creatures in the MM which cannot be used *sigh* A living cauchemar is far cooler (or hotter at that) than a stupid skeleton. We just have to come up with a few balanced rules and there shouldn`t be a problem with it. We can always shift the balance one way or the other until it`s perfect. We just have to try it. A big bonus is the credits for higher LA races. That opens plenty of new possibilities and I think of a playing a Halfcelestial when I have the time to gather enough credits. Far cooler than a aasimar. |
| SnarkHunter01-16-04, 07:13 PM | I'm going to at once agree with Cat and propose a solution! I am an efficent person you see. What if people with leadership and classed cohorts are only moded by Mods in favor of the system? The votes not tallied yet but I can say with some certainty that there aren't a small number of us. I know for sure of Me, Mag, Cat, Jindl and I assume Mother (maybe even if we don't go with your DMG system? Eh? *shrug*). Given also that so far there are very few people with the leadership feat out there, this sounds workable and would at least remove the, "To big a burden on the Mod" argument. Also tactics recieved from Cat and Mother and sent for Bilo and Hanz. Edit: My response is available for your pleasure on the RP thread! |
| MotherBast01-16-04, 07:29 PM | Jindl, if your still here, I have one other issue with your tactics!!!! This one might be a bit more important. |
| Caterane01-16-04, 07:36 PM | I`m really active tonight. Another thought crossed my mind. I noticed that barbarians only take 2 levels of this class, many not even that much. The reason is that above lvl 2 the class features become useless. Neither additional rages nor trap senses are useful, flanking is nearly useless too and it`s a long way to a decent DR and Greater rage, a way better walked with the fighter path - and that`s what every barb does: fighter, cleric, anything else than brb. Solution: Let barbarians use extra rages in the same encounter. This might not be as it is written but it makes the higher barbarian levels more attractive by far while it prevents "run away until his rage wears off" tactics. This solution hits two flies with one bat. |
| Mercy01-16-04, 08:06 PM | @Mag - Targ's tactics have been sent. |
| Rosella01-16-04, 08:18 PM | I'm just wondering something, is is possible for a character, if she'd take the leadership feat, to use her ally as a mount? say, could I use a leopard instead of a horse? and upon writing this i figured something; how do I know the costs if I would want to simply buy such a mount? |
| Tharkos01-16-04, 08:19 PM | Originally posted by MotherBast A purched mount is still an allie. Currently, the aproved methods of attaining an allie are as follows. Handle Animal (after an animal fight) Undead or other perment spell effect (after monster fight) Purchased (creatures with prices listed in MM only) Leadership And Class Feature. The diplomacy issue was brought up once before and rejected. No in game system exists for determinign the power/type of creature one could attain with diplomacy, so it was decided not to allow Diplomacy to attain arena allies. Diplomacy also had conditional modafiers, another reason it was rejected for arena use. This may change later, but for the moment the arena dosen't allow Diplomacy allies. (No vote was actually ever held, but if I remember correctly not one person actually supported the idea.) Diplomacy is even more broken than Handle Animal in that it doesnt even include a HD modifier. Thus it is probably the right way to disallow its use in the arena, but this shouldnt stop there but rather include adaptations for HA. Handle Animal is broken (for the arena) due to the fact it doesnt limit the maximum HD to be trained by your own level like Leadership does. Thus you can easily stack bonuses into this and get more powerful companions than unclassed cohorts would be able to give you. In a "standard campaign" it isnt broken because you have to feed the monster (and that is more expensive the bigger they get) and they cant fit into dungeons or castles and every city will have you keep them outside. @Jindl My list of creatures for HA wasnt complete and there are several flying creatures that could be trained. I would think a 12 headed Hydra (just 14 HD) is one of the most powerful cohorts you can have anyway because it also has fast healing 22 and thus is hard to kill. If you design your character around this it going to make a big impact on the arena ... for everyone who doesnt fly (dispel is ever so easy) or hide well enough to escape that monster. Sticking close to your "pet" will make everyone vulnerable to attack who relies upon melee for a victory and this would be a bit too much extra damage. Apart from that a Huge sized pet at least provides some sort of mobile cover. |
| Tellish_of_Ket01-16-04, 09:35 PM | Originally posted by Caterane @Tok: Good. One thing though: Ebelin is the last surviving member of his house so there`s no father of him around. I want to add some clues about living members of House Barnahdy at later levels. His father though is dead. Ah, see when Ebelin went to fight Iron in the first place, i had the father there and you didn't mention anything then. So i just assumed your Pa was still alive and hadn't had his throat slit by Bilo yet ;) Seems he has a penchant for slitting old man's throats. K, if i do anything in the future, i'll make sure to skip the father part. Or just assume he got his throat slit. :rofl: Tellish |
| Tellish_of_Ket01-16-04, 10:59 PM | Grym vs Coralias done. low ac opponents, lots of ability to deal dmg, means short bloody clash. Grym vs Coralias (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2348319#post2348319) Hope the link works. Tellish |
| Magagumo01-16-04, 11:11 PM | Hmm.. isn't a hyrda a magical beast? Heh, Arms & Equipment guide (Non-core) had an interesting comment on hydras: Namely, that you had to train all the heads individual, meaning you had to keep them all happy as you worked with each one. I believe their cut-off for hydras was 5-6 heads, as anymore would quickly prove too much to train ;). Also, people seem to be forgetting that you must capture these beasties to train them. Now, if Iron (to use a Handler example) wants to personally take on a 12 headed hydra, he can be my guest. I'd say anyone who fights Iron thereafter would have similar success vs. the beast, as I can't imagine it being beaten until we are 15th level or more, and by that point, they begin to be less amazing (their 12 bites aren't bad if they can't hit you, and I know that there are going to be some high AC builds out there. I just prefer Finger of Deathing them, honestly. Tactics were sent out by 6, and I have everyone but Herrix's tactics. After my intro session of my own campaign for the new year, I will be running one of the fights, so I want Herrix's tactics by Sat afternoon or so if possible. @Cat,While I notice that no one takes more Barbarian levels, they seem to be disregarding the damage reduction, good hp, good skill list/ points, and more powerful rages. Sure, the barbarian takes a while to gain power, but it could pay off. Ayan certainly will be taking more than 2 levels, if/when she ever enters the arena. @Snark- Sounds like a good plan on classed cohorts to me, we do seem to have plenty of backers. In regards to the 25 point buy, I suppose this would only apply to creatures who gain power through classes (such as Snark's bugbear). I don't have a huge problem running it off the stats in the DMG, though I hope everyone realizes that those are based off a 25 point buy? Just checking, because most of those NPCS do put an 8 in CHarisma and penalizing Int or Wisdom is often foolish (no skill points, and prey to Will saves), so I doubt we'll see a whole lot of that going on, honestly. Hey, dominate monster could actually become useful in the arena, as you turn a person's mount/companion/cohort against them. I know Bruno would fear fighting Ebelin, as it would become a war over who controlled Tony, the loser being a bloody pulp on the arena floor. |
| Arstimis01-16-04, 11:22 PM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket Grym vs Coralias done. low ac opponents, lots of ability to deal dmg, means short bloody clash. Grym vs Coralias (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2348319#post2348319) Hope the link works. Tellish Ya...i was looking at my friend's(Coralias) fight and was actually suprised he got that close to winning, but since he cant really look online to much i have to look out for him. In Round 3 with grym attacks [dmg: 3+7+3rage+2pa=15 dmg] what is the +3rage damage bonus from...i know they get +2 damage bonus from strength, but that was already there in the overall +7 str damage. If you could tell me what it is from i would appreciate it....that 3 hp could make the difference in the fight |
| Tellish_of_Ket01-17-04, 12:09 AM | Originally posted by Arstimis If you could tell me what it is from i would appreciate it....that 3 hp could make the difference in the fight Absolutely, i don't mind at all. 20str+4 rage=24 str = +7 str bonus...x1.5 for two handed weapon =+10 dmg. Hence his base +7, and +3 cuz he raged. It may be written down a little shakily, i should have just used the +10dmg instead of making it confusing. Tellish |
| Arstimis01-17-04, 12:51 AM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket Absolutely, i don't mind at all. 20str+4 rage=24 str = +7 str bonus...x1.5 for two handed weapon =+10 dmg. Hence his base +7, and +3 cuz he raged. It may be written down a little shakily, i should have just used the +10dmg instead of making it confusing. Tellish Dang..forgot it was a 2 handed weapon, thanks for the clarification. |
| KerlanRayne01-17-04, 04:23 AM | @ToK: Sorry about the Tactics problems. I thought I had a scroll of Mage Armor but I guess not. Also, I didn't think about specifying the Halberd, sorry about that. Speaking of the Halberd, you do know it's Not a reach weapon right? In the fight you said that Grym stepped back 5 feet and then attacked. Just letting you know. KerlanRayne |
| Moherajikuyx01-17-04, 04:24 AM | Originally posted by Jindl Of course, that druid would have put all of his abilities/feats/wealth into doing this, and would be a very ineffective character. HA! I didn't think I would have to remind you about shaping! Str .8 . . 0 Dex 12 . . 4 Cos 14 . . 6 Int 14 . . 6 Wis 16 . . 10 Cha 16 . . 10 Handle Animal: +14 (9 HD animal/4 HD beast) Level 2: buy a potion of fly, a sling and 10000 pebbles, get any ally, retry until succesful. Lvl 2-4: hide and make the beast attack (not many potions of fly at these levels). The enemy sooner or later gets tired of running/finishes spells/finishes arrows. Only possible problems: rogues and monks could succesfully hide from it AND find you. Solution: still plenty of spells... then: same as before, except shape before hiding: you're unfindable if you wish. Originally posted by SnarkHunter What if people with leadership and classed cohorts are only moded by Mods in favor of the system? You can't be sure about how many mods are there any week and you could incur in problems if they're not enough: if you let a feature, you have to be ready to manage it. Also, I don't want to risk to lose mods because they're overloaded (and it happened already...) even if they don't think they will be. Now to the tactics! |
| Tharkos01-17-04, 04:42 AM | Originally posted by Magagumo Hmm.. isn't a hyrda a magical beast? Heh, Arms & Equipment guide (Non-core) had an interesting comment on hydras: Namely, that you had to train all the heads individual, meaning you had to keep them all happy as you worked with each one. I believe their cut-off for hydras was 5-6 heads, as anymore would quickly prove too much to train ;). Also, people seem to be forgetting that you must capture these beasties to train them. Now, if Iron (to use a Handler example) wants to personally take on a 12 headed hydra, he can be my guest. I'd say anyone who fights Iron thereafter would have similar success vs. the beast, as I can't imagine it being beaten until we are 15th level or more, and by that point, they begin to be less amazing (their 12 bites aren't bad if they can't hit you, and I know that there are going to be some high AC builds out there. I just prefer Finger of Deathing them, honestly. Gosh, looks like I made a mistake in interpreting the rules. You actually cant use HA on anything other than animals with the exception of magical beasts which specifically mention it (Griffon, Pegasus, ...). The DC for these is15+HD that can give pretty tough (although a bit dumb) stuff to train. So Hydras are NOT eligible ... thanks Magagumo for making me check again. At level 10 someone could train a Dire Tiger (*) as a mount (or not) and those extra Claw attacks at +20 will probably be worth it. Even if you could cast Finger of Death at that level and would use it on the Tiger I would think it a good bargain because that spell didnt target me ... and even an animal has saves (the DT has Will +11 which isnt that bad). If you dont like the Tiger maybe you want a Triceratops with 196 hp and a +20 gore attack. For a "10 HD character" its pretty neat to have a "16 HD mount" and since leadership has a maximum level limit of "your own level -2" thats where the disadvantage starts. HA only has the sky (i.e. your skill check) as the limit atm and that isnt a really good thing. At level 10 these +20 attacks and the high number of hp are going to make a difference. Oh and Jindl, before you argue again, its not that unreasonable for a Paladin to have a +3 CHA bonus (thats prolly without any items) and his saves wont suck as well, so with just one feat it wont hurt that much to get that +21 check at level 10. (*) 13 class skill ranks +2 MW tool +3 CHA +3 Skill focus = +21 Take 10 + 21 = 31 vs. 15 + 16 HD = 31 |
| Caterane01-17-04, 05:04 AM | @Mo: What`s the status of your tactics? Even Mag beat you there! Shame on you! Edit: Alright. Tactics received. @Mag: Hey, I just found a Wilikens Street yesterday. Could you please stop to assimilate my hometown!? |
| Magagumo01-17-04, 09:01 AM | Stop assimilating? Or stop by to assimilate? One has already been done :devil: Hey Moh, I just remmbered the other key method for a druid shaper to survive those first lelves with no strength or Dexterity- Flame Blade :D. It doesn't check your strength, and you only have to make melee touches with it for 1d8+caster level in fire damage. It's a beautiful thing :) |
| Caterane01-17-04, 10:12 AM | Ha-haaaa Iron the last Panza vs Bruno Wilikens (9) (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2350940#post2350940) No criticals, no fumbles. I guess they all went to Ebelin`s fight :rolleyes: Enjoy! |
| Tellish_of_Ket01-17-04, 11:07 AM | Originally posted by KerlanRayne Speaking of the Halberd, you do know it's Not a reach weapon right? In the fight you said that Grym stepped back 5 feet and then attacked. Just letting you know. KerlanRayne Yup, i do...your 5' was to get away from the angle of the cover, otherwise your opponent would have also had +4 to AC for cover bonus. Probably should have said diagonally relative to him, but from a N/S perspective it was back. Sorry for the confusion. Tellish |
| cellardweller01-17-04, 11:33 AM | Originally posted by MotherBast I think both gladiators will like it. If you haven't read the fight yet, go do so now . . . . . . . . . With the way that I was yelling at my screen and eventually jumping out of my seat, I'm glad that I waited until I got back from work before reading it ;). Awesome fight. Regarding Draconic, I overlooked the this requirement when reading the prc. I hope no-one will object if I transfer 2 unused sp earned last level accross to speak languages. |
| MotherBast01-17-04, 01:52 PM | Bilo vs. Jindl is finished. I had to run it 3 times. The first time I was almost finished, but then realized I had forgot a to use Wall of Roots as Jindl wanted in his tactics. Since Jindl was lossing, and about to die of acid damage, I started over. The second time Bilo was about to die when I realized I had only used 2 of his 3 fireballs at the start of the fight as his tactics called for. So, on my third try at running the fight, I think I did everything exactly the way the tactics called for, but it turned out to be a much duller fight. It will be posted in about an hour or so. Just for Jindl, I tried to catch you before you left. The two combatents start 200' from each other, not 205' as your tactics suggest. I just assumed you were right when I read your tactics, but when I started running the fight, I counted like 8 times and always counted 200', so 20' of movement and 180' range spell can reach on turn 1. |
| Tellish_of_Ket01-17-04, 02:11 PM | Originally posted by MotherBast Just for Jindl, I tried to catch you before you left. The two combatents start 200' from each other, not 205' as your tactics suggest. I just assumed you were right when I read your tactics, but when I started running the fight, I counted like 8 times and always counted 200', so 20' of movement and 180' range spell can reach on turn 1. did you count the diagonals? Also i think the opponent has to move out 30' to get line of sight do they not? Or 20' straight up, which is still outa range? just checking Tellish |
| MotherBast01-17-04, 02:43 PM | One diagonal is still only 5', and a 5' step is enough for line of sight, it just dosen't remove the cover. The fight is posted now. On the first round, Bilo moves 20' forward, one of them being a diagonal move northward. He has line of sight and is only 180' from Jindl at that point, counting a single diagonal move as 5'. I think Jindl counted the distance between the starting points and got 205' somehow. I count them and only get 200'. It had a big impact on this fight. |
| Tellish_of_Ket01-17-04, 07:10 PM | 5' doesn't give you line of sight. I have the map drawn out on 1 inch square paper, and i can't draw a straight line from a 5' to the opponent. That's why archers always either do a single move and shoot once, or use a horse to single move and rapid shot because they cannot 5' and rapid shot. It should work just by drawing it out on graph paper, try it. Tellish |
| Tharkos01-17-04, 08:00 PM | posted by Hatzinger Oetzi Gender:M Race: Elf, wood Alignment: LN Class: Ranger lvl 2 Speaks Common, Elven 1. ein ELF ??? 2. kein level Barbarian ??? 3. der "echte" Oetzi wurde ja ermordet ... schoene Perspektive ... tsk tsk tsk ... Sorry for the german, but its a german reference ... |
| Caterane01-17-04, 08:06 PM | Ötzi *shakeshead* I bet his background story involves Reinhold Messner |
| MotherBast01-17-04, 10:13 PM | I also have an arena map with inch squares on it, though I didn't draw mine, I just put a few old inched off battle mats together. Anyway, for line of sight one needs only to pick any corner of the square he occupies and draw a line from it to any corner of the target's square without passing through cover. If you take a 5' step north, and choose the either of the top corners of your square and either of the top corners of your opponit's square you have line of sight. Since the 3 obsticals are all on x-0 and your line will not touch x-0 untill it reaches your opponit's square, you have line of sight. He still has cover though, because to negate cover you must be able to draw a line to every corner from the corner of your choice. That requires 15' of movement at least I think. |
| Tellish_of_Ket01-17-04, 11:10 PM | Originally posted by MotherBast That requires 15' of movement at least I think. You are correct of course. I was thinking of unobstructed line of sight. it only takes x-2 to get unobstructed line of sight. 10' north does is. Tellish |
| SnarkHunter01-18-04, 01:07 AM | Well I hadn't realized that about ranges and spell effects. I suppose that means that this tactics shouldn't have worked against Bruno last round (only 170ft range then). In anycase I think the fight went well and thanks for rerunning it so many times Mother! That's dedication right there. I may start the ebelin brackin fight tonight. I haven't decided yet. But certainly before Monday. |
| Tellish_of_Ket01-18-04, 02:39 PM | Posted. Harvester vs Elder (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2359247#post2359247) Hope i didn't mess up. I don't think i did, everything went according to plan for one contestant so everything was pretty simple to run. Tellish |
| Magagumo01-18-04, 03:11 PM | Grimlock vs. Herix up. Nice to see short low-level fights from time to time. I promise this one is a nail-biter, the winner looked like the winner a few rounds prior, then the loser, and so forth till the end ;) Should get Targ vs. Peter down soon. |
| Arstimis01-18-04, 03:16 PM | Something is messed up again...when i go to the fights page my Internet Explorer shuts down, so when my Fight shows up could someone send me a pm with it. Thanks |
| JonahBlack01-18-04, 04:38 PM | @Mag - Moving 200' on the first round, and shifting a step to the right to pass the obstacles, woudn't grimlock end up at (9,-1), and therefore be in reach of Herrix on round one? Why would he be 15' away? |
| Tharkos01-18-04, 04:52 PM | I do have two problems with the last Harvester fight and although I have mentioned it several times already no one seemed to have noticed it. This applies to ALL undead and not specifically to the cauchemar ... The fight (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&perpage=1&postid=2359247#post2359247) Primary Issue: Undead have an INT score of --. Thus they CAN NOT BE RIDDEN, you can merely sit upon them. They DONT have a brain to make sense of any "riding commands" and thus any movement commands which change prior movement have to be given as a standard action. The Harvester however cast a spell AND his Cauchemar started to fly. That is impossible. Animals you can train with Handle Animal have an INT of 1 or 2, since Undead have INT ZERO they cant be trained for riding since they cant learn any tricks. For the Harvester fight that would mean: round 0: (this is an "undead bonus action" OR it has to happen in round 1 !!!!) - Harvey: "When the signal is given go forward double moved to spot XXXX". - Cauchemar: stands still round 1: - Cauchemar: double move to the ordered position - Harvey: cast Silence round 2: - Harvey: cast invis purge - Cauchemar: no action since no command was given round 3: - Harvey: "Attack that flying soul." (if he is still within range of Invis Purge) - Cauchemar: flies up and starts grappling a whole round later than in the fight ... To repeat: any CHANGE in an undeads movement / attack requires a standard action. The first round movement action of the cauchemar (ground based double move) differs from the following action (attack (flying up is included in that since it can fly and thus follow the target)) and thus Harvey MUST use a standard action to give new directions to his "mount". If the fight had lasted longer the cauchemar would have attacked the Elder for as long as it took to kill him or until a different order came. Secondary Issue: I have serious doubts any mindless undead would understand the concept of "Grapple" and something "horselike" like the Cauchemar doesnt have the natural dexterity to grapple anything IMO anyway. Grappling sounds too much like the "Fetch" trick in the Handle Animal description and since INT ZERO means they cant learn tricks they can just use basic hits. Mindless undead have always performed like that (thats the reason why you usually use masses of them). This issue needs to be solved !!!!!!! P.S.: "Bubo" the Owl I like that movie too, hehehe |
| SnarkHunter01-18-04, 05:53 PM | Oy! (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2360907#post2360907) Fights up, Ebelin vs. Brackin. Good times. |
| JonahBlack01-18-04, 06:34 PM | @mag, also, in round 4, where did you get 24 for Herrix's AC? It should be 10+3dex+4mager armor+4shield, so I'd've hit (23v. 21). This, plus the next hit, would have given me the win. |
| Mercy01-18-04, 07:00 PM | The Babar vs. Kiowen fight is done. This was a close one. Let me know of any mistakes. |
| Arstimis01-18-04, 07:04 PM | Umm...Mercy, something is horribly wrong with my Internet Explorer, and it wont let me view the fights thread, so do you think you could email me the fight |
| Tellish_of_Ket01-18-04, 07:04 PM | Originally posted by Tharkos I do have two problems with the last Harvester fight and although I have mentioned it several times already no one seemed to have noticed it. This applies to ALL undead and not specifically to the cauchemar ... The fight (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&perpage=1&postid=2359247#post2359247) [b]Primary Issue: Undead have an INT score of --. Thus they CAN NOT BE RIDDEN, you can merely sit upon them. They DONT have a brain to make sense of any "riding commands" and thus any movement commands which change prior movement have to be given as a standard action. The Harvester however cast a spell AND his Cauchemar started to fly. That is impossible. Where do you get this info from? Speaking short words is a free action. And the use/commanding of undead has been done this way in the past. I'm just following protocol. Animals you can train with Handle Animal have an INT of 1 or 2, since Undead have INT ZERO they cant be trained for riding since they cant learn any tricks. Harvester never performed any tricks with the cauchemar. To repeat: any CHANGE in an undeads movement / attack requires a standard action. The first round movement action of the cauchemar (ground based double move) differs from the following action (attack (flying up is included in that since it can fly and thus follow the target)) and thus Harvey MUST use a standard action to give new directions to his "mount". If you know a source or can quote where this is written, it would certainly help. If not, please follow the link at the beginning of the builds page to commanding your undead companions. That is pretty much what we agreed upon, and that's what's being done. Secondary Issue: I have serious doubts any mindless undead would understand the concept of "Grapple" and something "horselike" like the Cauchemar doesnt have the natural dexterity to grapple anything IMO anyway. Grappling sounds too much like the "Fetch" trick in the Handle Animal description and since INT ZERO means they cant learn tricks they can just use basic hits. Mindless undead have always performed like that (thats the reason why you usually use masses of them). This issue needs to be solved !!!!!!! These issues were solved. But if you feel they need to be reviewed or "solved again" by all means we can open a discussion. I did always have the problem with undead grappling, but as it stands there are no pre-requisites that a creature must have to grapple. To counter your argument as to whether a cauchemar can grapple, well...it has a grapple check listed in it's stats. Tellish |
| sshuit01-18-04, 08:07 PM | This was a tough one. 2 combatants and 2 cohorts, invisibility and tracking by scent.... I await lots of criticism for improperly handled tactics, improperly rule interpretations and bad/good rolling sshuit :D |
| Arstimis01-18-04, 08:55 PM | Mercy...i think i have found some mistakes that would have made a difference in the outcome. This is the first time i saw it Cazzone sees his rider pinned and attacks (Atk1: 19 +6 = 25 vs. AC 10, hit; Dmg: 4 +4 = 8; Atk2: 4 +6 = 10 vs. AC 10, hit; Dmg: 1 +4 = 5; Atk3: 15 +1 = 16 vs. AC 10, hit; Dmg: 4 +2 = 6) unleashing equine fury on Kiowen. my ac should be 17 (+3 wis, +4 mage armor), so attack 2 and attack 3 wouldnt have hit me, and i would have 11 more hp so i would be at 17 Cazzone (Atk1: 19 +6 = 25 vs. AC 10, hit; Dmg: 5 +4 = 9; Atk2: 14 +6 = 20 vs. AC 10, hit; Dmg: 4 +4 = 8; Atk3: 5 +1 = 6 vs. AC 10, miss) answers Babar’s pray and kills Kiowen. it didnt matter in this set....but ouch. After these attacks i would have been at exactly 0 so...I think i should have won |
| Mercy01-18-04, 10:23 PM | @Arstimis - You are correct I did mess up the AC. I was thinking that anytime a monk is denied his dex bonus that he also lost his wis bonus. Also, I forgot about the size penalty when figuring Kiowen's AC. I'll wait until Mo has a chance to comment, but I'll be willing to adjust the last few rounds of the fight. sorry about that |
| Tellish_of_Ket01-18-04, 10:43 PM | Originally posted by sshuit This was a tough one. 2 combatants and 2 cohorts, invisibility and tracking by scent.... I await lots of criticism for improperly handled tactics, improperly rule interpretations and bad/good rolling sshuit :D Not sure, but i think Jagath still needs to make HA checks each round to have Serrat track Dr. Dre since Jagath isn't riding serrat.. And it would be a move-equivalent as well would it not? not much for bad rolling, dice played a minimal part in it. Tellish |
| Arstimis01-18-04, 10:43 PM | Ah yes...i guess you did forget about size, so my AC would then be 16 |
| sshuit01-18-04, 10:48 PM | @ tok Wasn't sure how HA with track works. I would imagine that telling an animal to attack it automatically attacks each round so the same would apply to track. The animal still needs to make a track roll each round....... but you are right I better re-read the handle animal section. sshuit Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket Not sure, but i think Jagath still needs to make HA checks each round to have Serrat track Dr. Dre since Jagath isn't riding serrat.. And it would be a move-equivalent as well would it not? not much for bad rolling, dice played a minimal part in it. Tellish |
| Magagumo01-18-04, 11:10 PM | Hmm.. I mistakenly added his old armor (studded) into the calculation. To be honest, this is a toss-up, the first hit may or may not have stopped the sleep (but the roll was still successful), but Herrix's next tactic would have been to heal... Look, I don't mind fixing my mistakes if the fight has not been officially recorded by Moh. There is no change in tactics, so I will right now redo the fight from that point (all new rolls from the attack against Herrix). I will let you knwo how this turns out. To the other Mods: This may seem unorthodox, but I take it personally when I screw up on a little thing like that. Since nothing is final yet, I believe this is my perogative and responsability to see this to the end. |
| Mercy01-18-04, 11:10 PM | Originally posted by Arstimis Ah yes...i guess you did forget about size, so my AC would then be 16 @Arstimis - I just sent you a re-done fight from round 9 on, with your correct AC. Can you check it out for any more errors. |
| Market_Share01-18-04, 11:12 PM | I'M BACK! Woot woot woot. Mexico was awesome. All women want there is...well...use your imagination. AHA I guess it's not much different from Montreal except the temperature right? LOL Anyhow, who needs a fresh buttock-whooping? @MO, please release from the cages, Pale-Rider and SPIKE! SPIKE |
| Hatzinger01-18-04, 11:12 PM | Originally posted by Tharkos 1. ein ELF ??? 2. kein level Barbarian ??? 3. der "echte" Oetzi wurde ja ermordet ... schoene Perspektive ... tsk tsk tsk ... Sorry for the german, but its a german reference ... As the original guy had clothing made from grass and looks (at least now) quite fragile, i figured an elf would fit nicely. :D |
| Mercy01-18-04, 11:21 PM | Originally posted by Magagumo To the other Mods: This may seem unorthodox, but I take it personally when I screw up on a little thing like that. Since nothing is final yet, I believe this is my perogative and responsability to see this to the end. Mag I feel the same way. It burns my breeches when I make a stupid mistake. |
| Tellish_of_Ket01-18-04, 11:22 PM | Originally posted by Magagumo To the other Mods: This may seem unorthodox, but I take it personally when I screw up on a little thing like that. Since nothing is final yet, I believe this is my perogative and responsability to see this to the end. Not unorthodox at all, i did it just last week. Tellish |
| Magagumo01-18-04, 11:32 PM | Alright, the fight was re-run up to that point. Long story short, Herrix was reduced to 1 hp w/ Grim's mighty blow. Grim is dropped to 3 hp by the horse (who didn't miss this time) and Herrix heals 9 hp off his CLW potion. According to Grim's tactics, slaying the horse followed disrupting spells, and then slaying the caster so he butchered the poor thing (leaving it at -18 w/ a single hit). Herrix dared to cast sleep (making defensive Concentration). Grim swung.. and missed him by 3. Herrix finished the spell, Grim failed his Will save, and Herrix CDG him that round. This was almost as bizarre as the first iteration... Herrix now must account for the potion and loss of Valerius,, but he is still the winner. Hope this won't make too many waves ^_^;;; |
| barrel_master01-18-04, 11:41 PM | Okay, I have a question... may sound stupid but.... I was almost always under the impression that once a caracter takes a level of PrC then they could no longer go back to their core class... not that can't be the case can it? I think it may have been an old house rule I may have used in the past as I've never been able to find anything in the SRD to suggest this is the case... |
| Jindl01-18-04, 11:41 PM | Originally posted by Tharkos I do have two problems with the last Harvester fight and although I have mentioned it several times already no one seemed to have noticed it. This applies to ALL undead and not specifically to the cauchemar ... Primary Issue: Undead have an INT score of --. Thus they CAN NOT BE RIDDEN, you can merely sit upon them. They DONT have a brain to make sense of any "riding commands" and thus any movement commands which change prior movement have to be given as a standard action. The Harvester however cast a spell AND his Cauchemar started to fly. That is impossible. Animals you can train with Handle Animal have an INT of 1 or 2, since Undead have INT ZERO they cant be trained for riding since they cant learn any tricks. For the Harvester fight that would mean: round 0: (this is an "undead bonus action" OR it has to happen in round 1 !!!!) - Harvey: "When the signal is given go forward double moved to spot XXXX". - Cauchemar: stands still round 1: - Cauchemar: double move to the ordered position - Harvey: cast Silence round 2: - Harvey: cast invis purge - Cauchemar: no action since no command was given round 3: - Harvey: "Attack that flying soul." (if he is still within range of Invis Purge) - Cauchemar: flies up and starts grappling a whole round later than in the fight ... To repeat: any CHANGE in an undeads movement / attack requires a standard action. The first round movement action of the cauchemar (ground based double move) differs from the following action (attack (flying up is included in that since it can fly and thus follow the target)) and thus Harvey MUST use a standard action to give new directions to his "mount". If the fight had lasted longer the cauchemar would have attacked the Elder for as long as it took to kill him or until a different order came. Well, back from the beach. Ouch. Ouch again. What Tharkos said about giving commands, he's right. Giving order's to commanded undead takes a standard action. We need to revise what the arena has done about this in the past. The PHB is really clear about this (look under turn/rebuke undead on the section about commanded undead.) - Jindl PS: I have a question. Since my druid can wildshape 4 times / day for 10 hours each time, can I add together 2 of my wildshapes to begin combat in animal form? |
| Magagumo01-18-04, 11:47 PM | @Jindl Hmm, I would say this would not be a god idea, since people could simply start double castign spells to add them up. I mean, sure, that could work. But I guess I'm being a curmudgeon, sticking to the old ways and all ;) Besides, think how great it will feel at 16th level? ;) Ah, entering as an elemental... scary |
| Tellish_of_Ket01-19-04, 12:00 AM | Originally posted by Jindl Well, back from the beach. Ouch. Ouch again. What Tharkos said about giving commands, he's right. Giving order's to commanded undead takes a standard action. We need to revise what the arena has done about this in the past. The PHB is really clear about this (look under turn/rebuke undead on the section about commanded undead.) - Jindl I'm in total agreeance. I've had a few arguments with Cat about the way undead have been handled in the arena and never liked the free action for short commands as we've been doing it so far. I, for one, would like to see much stricter guidelines for undead. I know i posted it in the reccommendations, but seems like they've been thrown out the window. And in all fairness to Jindl it wasn't Harvester's amazing grappling that did the Elder in. It was just fluff added on top of what the cauchemar was already dealing. I'm in favor of changing this. Some price needs to be paid for the power recieved by undead servants. Tellish |
| barrel_master01-19-04, 12:23 AM | Originally posted by Jindl Well, back from the beach. Ouch. Ouch again. What Tharkos said about giving commands, he's right. Giving order's to commanded undead takes a standard action. We need to revise what the arena has done about this in the past. The PHB is really clear about this (look under turn/rebuke undead on the section about commanded undead.) - Jindl PS: I have a question. Since my druid can wildshape 4 times / day for 10 hours each time, can I add together 2 of my wildshapes to begin combat in animal form? First, good on Tharkos about the rules check. Second, unfortunately I don't neccessarily agree that it's a standard action to command an undead creature. True, under the turn/rebuke section it states that it takes a standard to mentaly command a creature, under the skeleton discription it states 'A skeleton does only what it is ordered to do.' Personaly, I'm taking this as verbal instructions as suggested in the 'command undead' spell discription. When you control a mindless being, you can communicate only basic commands, such as “come here,” “go there,” “fight,” “stand still,” and so on. ' Of course if you don't think this is the case then post your position. |
| Arstimis01-19-04, 12:57 AM | Dang it....this is the second time I had a mount kill me (though the first one was revised and fixed..but it could have killed me). Thats why i dont like allies in the arena. hehe oh well, maybe now i should think about getting a potion of hide from animals |
| MotherBast01-19-04, 01:16 AM | I can't belive I forgot to include drinking potion's of healing in Brackin's tactics...... Brackin absolutly hates me now. About the hide bonus from invis. It wouldn't have effected this fight at all as he had the speed to negate my hide but the invis spells gives an Unnamed hide bonus. It does not say this bonus depends on your opponit being unable to see you, nor does see invis say it negates the hide bonus of invis, so strictly by the rules the hide bonus from the invis spell is a seprate effect that see invis does not counter. This could be important for future battles involving the invis spell, and is the main reason I alway use invis and then hide, even if I know my opponit can see invis. Snark made the commint that I was wrong on this point (actually he said I was insane), but I have checked Hide and see invis, and they state as follows "If you are invisible, you gain a +40 bonus to hide checks if you are immobile, or a +20 bonus on hide checks if you are moving." That is it, simply if you are invisible.... It does not say your opponit must not be able to see you, it simply says any ability that would make you invisible gives you the hide bonus. Nowhere in the see invis spell does it state that see invis negates this hide bonus. Besides, see invis doesn't make one able to see invisable creatures normaly, but to see them as "translucent shapes." Its easy to imagin a translucent shape having a good hide bonus. |
| Tellish_of_Ket01-19-04, 02:30 AM | Originally posted by MotherBast (actually he said I was insane), but I have checked Hide and see invis, and they state as follows "If you are invisible, you gain a +40 bonus to hide checks if you are immobile, or a +20 bonus on hide checks if you are moving." That is it, simply if you are invisible.... It does not say your opponit must not be able to see you, it simply says any ability that would make you invisible gives you the hide bonus. Nowhere in the see invis spell does it state that see invis negates this hide bonus. Besides, see invis doesn't make one able to see invisable creatures normaly, but to see them as "translucent shapes." Its easy to imagin a translucent shape having a good hide bonus. Pass the bong man, i want a toke! Tellish |
| Tharkos01-19-04, 03:16 AM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket Where do you get this info from? Speaking short words is a free action. And the use/commanding of undead has been done this way in the past. I'm just following protocol. This has also been mentioned before by others as well (which is why I found it in the first place): PHB pg. 159 on Evil Clerics and commanded Undead "A commanded undead creature is under the mental control of the evil cleric. The cleric must take a standard action to give mental orders to a commanded undead." They are even so nice as to make it a "mental action", although sucky as 3.5 is they forget to give a range for this "telepathic" ability. Animate Dead says its done by spoken commands, but that is just another inconsistency because the creature is still the same. I would suggest making the controlling a mental action (and thus unaffected by silence) but with a set range (either medium or short ... depending on how generous we are). IMO Mental commands are EASIER than speaking commands because thoughts are faster than a mouth (plus a small gesture perhaps) and the time required for the spoken commands is not defined in the spell description of Animate Dead, so we should stick to the one we have. Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket Harvester never performed any tricks with the cauchemar. PHB pg. 74-75, Handle Animal - Attack (DC 20) - Fetch (DC 15) - Combat Riding Purpose (DC 20) ... the animal needs to have INT 2 for this He doesnt actually do any tricks, but the actions are similar to tricks you have to teach an animal who at least still has a working brain and can react to its surroundings. Mindless undead have NO BRAINs so they will only react to their surroundings according to their orders ... which have to be given to them by their master. Since the undead didnt "learn" these things it has to be pushed into the right direction by its master ... and that takes time. Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket If you know a source or can quote where this is written, it would certainly help. If not, please follow the link at the beginning of the builds page to commanding your undead companions. That is pretty much what we agreed upon, and that's what's being done. 1. Common sense, 2. Undead follow orders and any arena fight has to be commanded on the spot. Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket These issues were solved. But if you feel they need to be reviewed or "solved again" by all means we can open a discussion. I did always have the problem with undead grappling, but as it stands there are no pre-requisites that a creature must have to grapple. To counter your argument as to whether a cauchemar can grapple, well...it has a grapple check listed in it's stats. Yeah well WotC designers have proven they are mindless automatons (undead) sometimes themselves because of quite a few copy&paste errors (see above for the "mental vs. spoken command" issue for example). I just wasnt sure about this and if you decided that you are just using the stats in the book thats ok. I just read somewhere that a mindless undead looses any "special skills" and for me this would include the knowledge of how to make grapple attacks. Since the MM does list grapple bonuses I dont mind if they can do it however. |
| Tharkos01-19-04, 03:29 AM | Originally posted by MotherBast About the hide bonus from invis. It wouldn't have effected this fight at all as he had the speed to negate my hide but the invis spells gives an Unnamed hide bonus. It does not say this bonus depends on your opponit being unable to see you, nor does see invis say it negates the hide bonus of invis, so strictly by the rules the hide bonus from the invis spell is a seprate effect that see invis does not counter. This could be important for future battles involving the invis spell, and is the main reason I alway use invis and then hide, even if I know my opponit can see invis. Snark made the commint that I was wrong on this point (actually he said I was insane), but I have checked Hide and see invis, and they state as follows "If you are invisible, you gain a +40 bonus to hide checks if you are immobile, or a +20 bonus on hide checks if you are moving." That is it, simply if you are invisible.... It does not say your opponit must not be able to see you, it simply says any ability that would make you invisible gives you the hide bonus. Nowhere in the see invis spell does it state that see invis negates this hide bonus. Besides, see invis doesn't make one able to see invisable creatures normaly, but to see them as "translucent shapes." Its easy to imagin a translucent shape having a good hide bonus. PHB pg. 76, Hide skill description: [i]"You need cover or concealment (see pages 150-152) in order to attempt a hide check." So if you are out in the open or you arent in any cover / concealment situation (and see invis pretty much negates invis "concealment") the Hide skill doesnt work. It doesnt work all the times and everywhere, just where Hide would work regularly ... but then it pretty much makes you hard to spot. |
| cellardweller01-19-04, 04:44 AM | @Mo you can sign me back up for one fight a week. Regarding hide bonuses under invisibility. SRD: See invisibility You can see any objects or beings that are invisible within your range of vision, as well as any that are ethereal, as if they were normally visible. If you are seen as if you were normally visible then by definition you are not invisible and none of the bonuses for the invisble state should apply. SRD:Invisibility Purge Anything invisible becomes visible while in the area. If you are visible you are, again by definition, not invisible and therefore none of bonuses for the invisible state should apply. Probably of more interest: SRD invisiblity state One could coat an invisible object with flour to at least keep track of its position (until the flour fell off or blew away). Last time I checked flour was alot cheaper than dust of appearance. |
| Alterlat01-19-04, 05:48 AM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket Not sure, but i think Jagath still needs to make HA checks each round to have Serrat track Dr. Dre since Jagath isn't riding serrat.. And it would be a move-equivalent as well would it not? not much for bad rolling, dice played a minimal part in it. Tellish I'd agree with sshuit that once told to track the animal companion would continue to try and track until told otherwise. In any case its pretty irrelevant since the link ability means you can handle an animal companion as a free action. Thanks for the modding sshuit - I was very happy with it. looks like Serrat finally caught the Professor digging up the bones she'd buried in the yard. |
| Moherajikuyx01-19-04, 06:33 AM | Whoa! Great fights guys! I can see people learning from their errors, as I did, and it makes me proud! New tactics blossom and old ones die... In the arena life... Seems that buffing will become more and more useless. - first round shot: I thought it was only half cover, not total, but I indeed prefer it if a mov is required. - central obstacle: I understood it is to be left there in case both the gladiators want it. I'd also let it there in the good. vs. evil fight: it helps against 1st round things, and it gives everyone a chance to play. - natural attacks in a grapple: they are considered weapons, only 1 deals damage, following the bab sequence as in the grapple rules. The damage is dealt by the weapon that grabbed in case of imp. grab. This didn't show up this week but I want to make it clear (I read "use all natural weapons in the grapple" in some tactics, which is not possible). - Bilo: damn this halfling keeps missing retribution! :) - Mount locations: in the case of gladiators larger than 1 square (mounts) I have to clarify some issues. -- nothing can get nearer to the center than the A or B square (so for example, a horse rider will have one of her two right squares in A or one of her two left squares in B); anything else can be chosen. -- in the case she's unmounted, the gladiator has to be in A or B, the ally has to stay at his flank/back -- in the rare case where they share spaces at start, the gladiator has anyways to stay in A or B and the ally can't stay nearer to the center, thus it can't provide cover. Not that this has other hindrances (movement). I'll write this stuff on the map. - Market Share - welcome back! You're THE dwarf! :bow: - undead: I believe that controlling them as clerics is different from the animate undead granted command. Sadly. While the first works with ravaging or dangerous undead, the spell gives you an ally, not a thing that would eat you. This is the difference. Of course if you find a rule that makes this void I'll happily follow it. But the cleric ability involves channeling positive or negative energy, which is what takes time (not the command) SPOILERS ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ - Iron vs. Bruno - I loved the backstory! Lol, the spiked gauntlet did the difference...! - mounts get more and more important (I should change Cazzone's name :D)... I wonder how to react with Rito. |
| Tharkos01-19-04, 07:22 AM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx - undead: I believe that controlling them as clerics is different from the animate undead granted command. Sadly. While the first works with ravaging or dangerous undead, the spell gives you an ally, not a thing that would eat you. This is the difference. Of course if you find a rule that makes this void I'll happily follow it. But the cleric ability involves channeling positive or negative energy, which is what takes time (not the command) If these two controlling actions are to be handled differently you still have to explain as to why - the vocal one is faster than the mental one ... - the vocal action is a free action when you have to give precise orders to a mindless undead. Orders of "attack" would mean it attacks the nearest thing including the creator, so these orders have to be a little more precise than that. Simple orders are pretty straightforward, but I can make up some that take a longer time and the "double move forward, slightly left" that Harvey would have given in round one takes me about 3 seconds to speak and thus it is far beyond the free action that speaking. You even have to focus your attention somewhat to think about the order to be given, so thats another reason as to why it shouldnt be a free action. - giving orders to an intelligent Animal takes longer than giving one to a mindless undead (except for a druid or ranger) and please dont try to argue that its in the spell because then some kind of magical bond would be established between the controller and the undead and that should be dispellable. The easiest solution is to make it a standard action like the usual controlling because undead are supposed to be dumb and need a tight control. I think it also needs to be explained how a medium sized character (Harvey) with a 5' reach can make a grapple (or any regular attacks) down from a huge sized "mount" (Cauchemar) with 15' space and 10' reach. In any case an undead has no nerves, so it cant sense any usual "riding stuff" like giving it the spurs or using a whip and thus some riding skill special maneuvers (guiding with knees, spur mount, ...) dont apply unless the action is "for your own benefit" (soft fall, fast mount / dismount, ...). |
| MotherBast01-19-04, 08:46 AM | Tharkos, I agree one would still need cover for the hide checks if invis and his opponit could see invis. My argument is he would still get the unnamed hide bonus from the invis spell if he were to have cover and hide. The reason is see invis doesn't specificaly say it removes the hide bonus, nor does hide say the unnamed bonus is lost if the opponit can see invisible creatures. Also, being able to see something "as if it was visible" dosen't mean it actually is. As long as the invisibility effect lasts, it would recive the hide bonus wether one could see it or not, since the hide bonus comes from having the invs effect and not from opponit's lack of sight. To give an example, I am the party wizard. I cast invis on my entire party, and then cast see invis on myself. Now I can see my party, but they are still invis, and they would still recive the hide bonus. So Cellerdweller, if you are invisable and someone has see invis, you are not by deffination "visible". You are "invisible" and he has the ability to "see invisable". Now, I would agree this is probably not in the spirit of the rules, and certanly not what was intended, but the hide bonus from invis effects does not say it is negated if your opponit can see invis. That is the bottom line. As long as you are invis, you get the bonus. Tellish, LOL, as far as the Bong, not in a long long time my friend, we drug test in the D.O.C. |
| Moherajikuyx01-19-04, 09:32 AM | About reach: even if undead can't be commanded by riding skill, they still can be rode - mounting on them is enough for that. I acknowledge this wouldn't be enough in the real world, and that it is a game simplification. Thus, reach works exactly like with the normal mounts. About the other thing, I really hope you're right... :) I'd like to give less emphasis to mounts too. |
| JonahBlack01-19-04, 10:02 AM | @ Mag - Thanks for addressing my concerns over the Herrix/Grimlock fight. I have another issue, though. In the new last round I miss Herrix by 3. However, he should be prone after falling from the horse. This would give him a -4 penalty to AC, so I'd hit (8+10=18 v. 21-4=17). He could stand and still cast, but this would provoke an attack of opportunity (per the SRD standing from prone provokes an AoO). |
| barrel_master01-19-04, 10:42 AM | I agree with Tharkos in the sense that these animals can't be directed with the char's legs and as such they can't use feats such as Mounted combat... |
| MotherBast01-19-04, 12:02 PM | I would also agree with Tharkos that undead mounts can't be "ridden" as normal mounts. I think I remember somewhere in the DMG a reference stating a mount must have 4 or less INT. If undead had 0 Int they would qualify. However, they don't, they don't have an intelegence score at all, meaning that while you could theoraticly sit atop an undead, noting that effected a mount, such as munted combat, would effect it, as it isen't a mount. |
| Mercy01-19-04, 12:28 PM | Regarding the Babar vs. Kiowen fight: I re-did the fight from round 9 on with Kiowen's correct AC. It didn't make a difference to the outcome, but it did make it a little closer. It just goes to show, bringing a warhorse to the fight can make a big difference. |
| Caterane01-19-04, 01:18 PM | Since I currently play a necromancer in my RL campaign (Vandaeris) I`m quite familiar with this topic. Clerics need to use a standard action to give commands but they can therefore command better undead than can be with animate dead - which uses a free action to do so. That is written in the rules and any changes are houserules, something we don`t want here. Tharkos, you always emphasize that undeads have no brain; that they are so stupid that you have to tell them everything or they do it wrong. If so, then how can they understand language at all? Why do skeletons and zombies retain their weapon proficiencies? Why can they stand at all and do not fall on the ground? How do they know how to fight? How can they distinguish between a pillar and a creature? You want me to tell them: "Put the left foot before the right one, raise your right arm and bring it down in a 45° arc on the thing with two arms and two legs standing before you..." and so on and so on. That`s nonsense. Undead are undead and no corpses with a remote comtrol. All your arguments are based on your imagination how undeads work but since there are no undead existing in the real world you don`t know how the whole thing really works; what´s behind this strange type of existance. It could easily be otherwise. All we have are the rules WotC gave us and that`s how we are going to do it. Hope this settles the issue once and for all. As for balance: we already realized that only allowing druids and paladins better companions is unbalancing. In the recent months we made great progress; opening new options to other classes aswell. It`s not perfect but it`s constantly improving and we are not finished. There will come the day when intelligent weapons are a new issue and binding spells are standard but I have faith that we will find a balanced solution. Cat Edit: Tharkos, your questions how I am able to grapple from a 15ft mount is another indicator that you base your arguments on imagination which in turn will produce house rules. It is written that you share ALL spaces of the mount simultaneously. Written rule. If we follow your suggestion then I can ask in return that the 5ft gladiator cannot reach me up there. You see where this will lead us to... Edit2: Same goes for why a nightmare shouldn`t be able to grapple??? Another houserule based on your imagination? Just because you cannot imagine a grappling horse should be reason enough to ignore the grapple statistic in the MM? What is all this talk of common sense about? There are rules!! Period. |
| Caterane01-19-04, 01:31 PM | @Jindl: There`s one thing that bothers me. You always change your character sheet the very last second. And you leave your new spells (spellbook) open to the very last second. The Elder waited for weeks at level 9 but aquired his new spells two hours before the pairings were set. Same goes for equipment. I was lucky that I came home earlier last wednesday. You don`t do this becuase you forgot something. You use it as a metagame tactic which gives you an offgame advantage over the combatant and that is NOT cool, nor is it fair play. Of course, it is absolutely legal and I can`t tell you to leave this be; but I can express my feelings about that. @ToK: The story was very cool. I like this kind of black humor and it`s not easy to write something good with only 4 rounds available. And the undead mount was absolutely handled correctly. I`m still not convinced about the arrow of slaying and the DR but I`m too tired now to open a new discussion. |
| Magagumo01-19-04, 03:48 PM | @Cat - Amen on the undead comments :) Re: Slaying Arrow- If you read the weapon, it states that it must strike the creature, not deal damage. Generally, DR stops effects which require damage being dealt. For example, the scorpion cannot poison the wizard w/ Stoneskin, if it's sting does not deal at least 11pts of damage total (1 point carries through the DR). But, having read the arrows, I'm afraid that slaying arrows need only hit our beloved companions. In the end, though, we get them abck for free, and it cost them 2500 gold or so (and that's if they hit them :devil: we have ways of stopping that.) I am running the Targ & Peter fight now, pray for Mojo... @Joanah If you could direct me to the page number that states a person if prone when their mount dies, please do so. Under Combat rules, it does not mention being prone when your mount dies (pg. 157) |
| cellardweller01-19-04, 08:06 PM | Originally posted by MotherBast The reason is see invis doesn't specificaly say it removes the hide bonus, nor does hide say the unnamed bonus is lost if the opponit can see invisible creatures. Also, being able to see something "as if it was visible" dosen't mean it actually is. As long as the invisibility effect lasts, it would recive the hide bonus wether one could see it or not, since the hide bonus comes from having the invs effect and not from opponit's lack of sight. To give an example, I am the party wizard. I cast invis on my entire party, and then cast see invis on myself. Now I can see my party, but they are still invis, and they would still recive the hide bonus. So Cellerdweller, if you are invisable and someone has see invis, you are not by deffination "visible". You are "invisible" and he has the ability to "see invisable". You can't possibly be serious. In your above example the hide bonus would apply vs everyone except the wizard. The invisiblity state is a property of the relationship, not the entity. This much is evident by spells such as hide from animals. If we were to apply your logic to that spell, if you drank a potion of hide from animals you would be invisible to the horse and get a +20 hide modifier vs the rider. I can't believe we are actually discussing this. |
| Magagumo01-19-04, 09:10 PM | Sweet Merciful lord.... Just finished the Targ vs. Peter fight... Took me around 4 hours or so. It may have some errors, but I beg consideration for 36 straight rounds. Also, I hope you guys enjoy the story. @MB I'm afraid you are wrong on this one, my friend... invisible is a trait, given by invisiblity spell (or other source) which grants a hide bonus. As see invisiblity negates the invisible trait, you lose the Hide bonus. |
| JonahBlack01-19-04, 09:44 PM | @Mag: Fair enough. I had just assumed that if you fell off your horse, that you'd actually fall down, not just to your feet, especially if you fail the 'soft fall' check. You are right though, this is not stated anywhere in the rules. Interestingly, the results of falling are not stated anywhere either, aside from damage taken. Therefore, if you fall 100 feet, and aren't killed by the 10d6 damage, you will land on your feet, but the letter of the rules. ::shrugs:: Well, nonetheless, thanks to Herrix and Mag for a good fight. I want a rematch at level 5 (no more sleep). @KerlanRayne: Keep your eyes on the Arena Roleplay Board. There'll be a message for Grym Morbid later tonight. |
| MotherBast01-19-04, 10:04 PM | Celler, actually, no. Hide from animals does not make you invis in any way. So you would gain no hide bonus from it, not even from animals. Mag, Invis is a condition, or a trate, whatever you want to call it, and another person having see invis does not make the condition go away. Nor does it negate the conditon. See invis only helps you if the condetion is still in effect as a matter of fact. It simply allows you to see someone who has that condition. The hide bonus applies as long as you have the invis condition. It does not say "you gain the hide bonus as long as your opponit can not see you." It says you get it as long as your invis. As long as that condition is in effect on you, you get the hide bonus. It might be worth noting the hide bonus is not part of the invis spell, but part of the hide skill. Anyway, I can see this argument is pointless. When the player who came up with this in my game did it, I said exactly the same things your all saying. Its ludicrus, and rediculus, and dosen't work that way. He responded with "show me the rule that says it dosen't." After putting my game on pause for almost half an hour I realized I wouldn't be able to show him any rule that said it wouldn't work the way he said. So, I allowed it for that time only and then houseruled it to not work that way in the future. Its not that big an issue to me, I don't care if it works that way or not in the arena. It has never once effected any fight I have been involved in. All I wanted to point out was the going strictly by what the book says, the tactic is legal, or would be if no logic or interprative judgment was applied to it. I really don't feel like carrying on yet another argument where I am the only person on one side, as was the case with Mounted Combat, when the outcome will be the same as that argument. |
| cellardweller01-19-04, 10:24 PM | Originally posted by MotherBast I really don't feel like carrying on yet another argument where I am the only person on one side, as was the case with Mounted Combat, when the outcome will be the same as that argument. For the record, I agreed with your position on mounted combat, but as you had already stated all the relevant points, I didn't see the need to chime in. |
| Magagumo01-19-04, 11:03 PM | I hear you MB, but let me throw something your way to help you with that rules lawyer. "Invisible creatures gain a +40 on Hide checks if immobile, and +20 if moving" (PHB 309) See Invisiblity- "You can see any objects or beings that are invisible within your range of vision, as well as any that are ethereal, as if they were normally visible " (PHB 275) Now, by seeing things as if they were normally visible, they are no longer "invisible" to you, as invisible means "to not be visible." Since they are visible to you, they do not get the bonus. Your player is attempting to bend the rules by leaving out/ ignoring words here, but don't let him do it. This is a typical tactic of munchkins, and I had to deal with one in my game for awhile (nice guy, good friend, but a rules-freak when it came to some things, especially Psionics). I'm glad to hear you at least houseruled him down :) |
| Elgonn01-19-04, 11:22 PM | I unfortunately have to agree with MotherBast's peculiar finding. PHB Glossary, Hide Skill, DMG Conidition Summary, etc. All the wording is hide centric. "Your" hide check is improved. Being able to see invis doesn't grant a circumstance penalty on someone else's hide check. Invis Hide bonuses should be Spot centric penalties. Thank god for Rule 0. Elgonn |
| JonahBlack01-19-04, 11:38 PM | Check the RP Board. |
| Ethendril01-19-04, 11:49 PM | I have just been able to run the Elxethan vs. Lucius fight. I'm working on my writeup. Unfortunately, I was not able to run the fight earlier today when I thought I would due to forum downtime. As a result, I will not be able to post the fight until Tuesday morning. Sorry for the delay. -Ethendril |
| Jindl01-20-04, 12:45 AM | Originally posted by Ethendril I have just been able to run the Elxethan vs. Lucius fight. I'm working on my writeup. Unfortunately, I was not able to run the fight earlier today when I thought I would due to forum downtime. As a result, I will not be able to post the fight until Tuesday morning. Sorry for the delay. -Ethendril Ditto for my fights. It sucks when the tactics I needed from ToK are all in PM, and the boards are down... I'll get both fights up and posted tomorrow. @Cat - Sure, I modified the Elder's equip after I accepted the Harvester's challenge (and before the pairings). Fat lot of good it did. You should keep in mind that I follow the guidelines just like everyone else. I set my equipment before pairings, just like everyone else. I don't see what difference it makes whether I do it sooner or later, either way its before the pairings. I don't really see what advantage it gives me, either I don't know who I am fighting and thus it is irrelevant, or I do know who I am fighting, and so does my opponent, so there is no advantage. Either way, I don't see how when you update your equipment is "metagame". @Mo - Why shouldn't you be able to make your normal attacks with natural weapons while grappling (although you do suffer the -4 penalty to attacks for using weapons in a grapple)? Why do you think that only the "improved grab" associated natural attack is the only one you can use when grappling and that it must follow a BAB sequence? Creatures with natural attacks don't follow BAB sequences. Could you please point me towards the rules you are basing this on? RE: Huge Central Obstacle - It is becoming more and more obvious that initiative is the major determining factor in higher level fights. For spellcasters, once you reach 9th level, you can easily target your opponent with medium range spells, before they get to act. Unless we include the huge central obstacle, you can expect spellcasters to win easily by winning intiative and casting evards tentacles, or the like (as levels progress, the medium range spells get even nastier. I know I am looking forward to fire seeds...) I would like to reopen discussion about including the huge central obstacle. Flat-footedness could still be achieved, through use of stealth. Initiative shouldn't be the determining factor in fights (though it was in several fights this week). I would suggest putting the huge central obstacle in effect, if either player wants it, and that the player's option to waive the obstacle just be part of their character sheet. That way, if either combatant wants it, the obstacle is there. But both players will know that when they write up their tactics. What does everyone think about this? -Jindl |
| Tellish_of_Ket01-20-04, 01:20 AM | Originally posted by Jindl Ditto for my fights. It sucks when the tactics I needed from ToK are all in PM, and the boards are down... I'll get both fights up and posted tomorrow. -Jindl Your mail box bounced them back to me. I have them saved, so if you want i can try re-sending them to ya? Tellish |
| Elgonn01-20-04, 01:29 AM | Originally posted by Jindl (as levels progress, the medium range spells get even nastier. I know I am looking forward to fire seeds...) Just to make sure. You aren't implying that Fire Seeds is a medium range spell? |
| Jindl01-20-04, 01:47 AM | @ToK - No, I have them, as long as the boards don't go down again. They are saved in my PM box. @Elgonn - while not expressly medium range, the range of throwing the acorns is 100 feet, and thus in the same general category of distance. The point is, that at higher levels the ability to make instant kills if you win initiative becomes easier and easier. Using the huge central obstacle would at least allow both combatants the opportunity to use their tactics. Its good for casters, because they can buff. Its good for sneaky types, because they have the opportunity to start sneaking. It's good for fighters, because they aren't subject to instant kill effects. It's good for nearly everyone to include it. Personally, I am strongly for including the obstacle, but would still like the option of waiving it, if both players wanted to. -Jindl |
| Moherajikuyx01-20-04, 04:40 AM | Originally posted by Jindl @Mo - Why shouldn't you be able to make your normal attacks with natural weapons while grappling (although you do suffer the -4 penalty to attacks for using weapons in a grapple)? Why do you think that only the "improved grab" associated natural attack is the only one you can use when grappling and that it must follow a BAB sequence? Creatures with natural attacks don't follow BAB sequences. Could you please point me towards the rules you are basing this on? You can't do grapple attempts to deal damage based on the number of natural weapons: grapple is based on bab. That said, you can't do normal attacks at -4 to hit with all the natural weapons either: Attack Your Opponent: You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a -4 penalty on such attacks. You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons. The last sentence refers to weapons, both natural and light ones, which it addressed on the previous sentence. It is common knowledge that some animals are worst (slower killers) at grappling than at normal combat, specifically the ones with many natural weapons. I dare to grapple dire tigers as a monk, and even as a barbarian. Another interesting point is that grapple checks to deal damage are not attacks, they are checks, and thus they don't follow the 20 hit 1 miss and crit rules. May I direct you to the infinite_monkeys (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Infinite_Monkeys/?yguid=8684287) yahoogroup, where they had a HUGE discussion about this very argument during december and january. They reached the conclusion I reported so pls read that discussion before repeating it on this thread. *Edit* Faldion vs. Candy posted - sorry if it is posted by Pitlords, I forgot to change as usual. |
| Tharkos01-20-04, 07:50 AM | @Cat I know the rules read like they are allowing controlling undead which you animated yourself with a free vocal action, but the Harvester commands his undead mount AND casts a spell in the same round and both use the voice of the character. A free vocal action cant take place if you are casting a spell however since that action already occupies the "few sentences" (PHB pg. 144) allowed for the speaking action. How the designers want to say "a few sentences" in 6 seconds is beyond me ... words yes, but sentences ? This is just another broken 3.5 rule ... unless the characters are all Quicklings as well. I am not saying that you need to direct every tiny movement yourself, but rather that any command you give needs a more precise wording and if it can be twisted in a wrong way (like attacking YOU instead of the opponent for a simple "attack" command with no target given) it should do that. Just like for the Wish spell ... although this is because the undead have no brain. Thus these commands need to be longer and more precise than covered by a free action IMO. Speaking is not always a free action and that is a rule too. I have already posted that I can accept the fact that undead can use grapple since the MM has those values listed. |
| Moherajikuyx01-20-04, 08:09 AM | Babar challenges Dusk! (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2374051#post2374051) |
| Elgonn01-20-04, 08:35 AM | @Jindl I thought that Fire Seeds wasn't exactly the best choice for talking about initiative and being able to hit the opponent with medium range spells the first round. 100 foot range would be darn annoying for unmounted characters to get to on the first round. Also you can't throw Fire Seeds the round you cast the spell anyways. I totally agree with having a large central obstacle. The other thing that I think the physical arena could use is some sort of defined lighting across it. Totally brightly lit is just weird. Elgonn |
| Moherajikuyx01-20-04, 10:04 AM | I'm waiting for the posting of the last fights... I hope we can do the pairings tomorrow. |
| Ethendril01-20-04, 01:03 PM | Elxethan vs. Lucius is posted. -Ethendril |
| Jindl01-20-04, 01:11 PM | And so is Zorander vs Kelek. And so is Curungur vs Hurtz. -Jindl |
| barrel_master01-20-04, 01:28 PM | This is me requesting to mod 0 fights this week again.... |
| kattattack2201-20-04, 02:30 PM | Elxethan vs. Lucius is posted. Great fight Ethendil. I espeically liked that you had both our mothers there. Espeically since Lucius is looking for his, but I guess no one knew that since I haven't put up his background yet. Still I enjoyed it up until the end :P. |
| Magagumo01-20-04, 02:47 PM | Actually, Moh, creatures can use all their natural attacks in a grapple, but they do not make grapple checks to deal the damage. Instead they just roll standard attacks with a -4 penalty. (Rake gves you two additional attacks w/o the -4 penalty, the MM has a glossary on Natural Attacks and Rake, which should clarify things... not sure if SRD contains the glossary though). If a creature chooses, it can use grapple checks to crush a creature, but none really do (you'll notice that creatures w/ improved grab always have rake, swallow whole, or constrict, so that they have methods for dealing damage while grappling). Thusly grappling a dire tiger is insanely dangerous for a character with a low AC (easy to hit, even in the grapple), as well as a character with a low grapple check (say if the highly armored, tiny halfling just is crushed in the tiger's motuh instead, using grapple checks rather than attack rolls). |
| Caterane01-20-04, 02:51 PM | Trample feat: Can I trample someone while in the air? Righteous might: Can i use RM while being permanently enlarged? I know I won`t get another size categorie but I just want the boni only anyways. |
| Jindl01-20-04, 03:07 PM | Originally posted by Caterane Trample feat: Can I trample someone while in the air? You can certainly overrun while both combatants are flying, and therefore you can use trample to prevent them from avoiding you and to get the extra hoof attack. But, since the target cannot be "prone" when flying, I wouldn't give you the +4 to hit on that extra hoof attack. Originally posted by Caterane Righteous might: Can i use RM while being permanently enlarged? I know I won`t get another size categorie but I just want the boni only anyways. The spells don't stack, so if both are running, use the best enhancements from each (just don't add the enhancements together). -Jindl |
| Caterane01-20-04, 03:16 PM | use the best enhancements from each Thanks Jindl. That was exactly what I wanted to hear |
| Caterane01-20-04, 03:46 PM | You can certainly overrun while both combatants are flying, and therefore you can use trample to prevent them from avoiding you and to get the extra hoof attack. But, since the target cannot be "prone" when flying, I wouldn't give you the +4 to hit on that extra hoof attack. What if I trample someone in the air that doesn`t have good/perfect maneuverability. Does he fall to the ground then? I`d say yes, because his flight is interrupted. |
| Jindl01-20-04, 03:50 PM | Originally posted by Caterane What if I trample someone in the air that doesn`t have good/perfect maneuverability. Does he fall to the ground then? I`d say yes, because his flight is interrupted. Since he cannot be prone while flying, you did nothing in the rules to interrupt his flight. He can continue to fly normally, using at least a move action each turn to stay in the air. For aerial combat, trample effectively allows you to move through your opponent's square while making a hoof attack. The additional benefits of making your opponent prone only apply when your opponent is on the ground. -Jindl |
| Ethendril01-20-04, 03:56 PM | Babar challenges Dusk! Hmm...I have some reservations about fighting a bard who uses a d8 rather than a d6 like other bards. While I think it would be cool to progress Dusk's draconic transformation story, I wonder what other tricks you would have up your sleeve besides the increased HD. Actually, by my calculations, Babar should not even be a valid opponent. I think Babar's HP are calculated incorrectly (using a d8, rather than d6 for bard levels), and should not have won his last fight. His opponent dies right before he does, but I think Babar had 3 hp too many, which would mean he would have lost the fight (and would not, therefore, be level 5 right now to fight me). Would someone else please check Babar's hp calculation and the last fight with Kiowen? I may be calculating it wrong. If I'm wrong, then I accept your challenge, as it will be good for the story. (even if I am then the THIRD dragon disciple) -Ethendril |
| Tharkos01-20-04, 04:15 PM | Trample needs the ground to crush the opponent on ... in the air you just kick him away and it becomes a regular attack, but then this is just my "common sense opinion" so you are free to ignore it Cat. |
| Jindl01-20-04, 04:18 PM | Originally posted by Ethendril Hmm...I have some reservations about fighting a bard who uses a d8 rather than a d6 like other bards. While I think it would be cool to progress Dusk's draconic transformation story, I wonder what other tricks you would have up your sleeve besides the increased HD. Actually, by my calculations, Babar should not even be a valid opponent. I think Babar's HP are calculated incorrectly (using a d8, rather than d6 for bard levels), and should not have won his last fight. His opponent dies right before he does, but I think Babar had 3 hp too many, which would mean he would have lost the fight (and would not, therefore, be level 5 right now to fight me). Would someone else please check Babar's hp calculation and the last fight with Kiowen? I may be calculating it wrong. Um, Ethendril is correct. Babar had 3 hps too many in the last fight, and should have lost (since he would have reached -10 hps first.) I think that this mistake should be corrected and Kiowen awarded the win. -Jindl |
| MotherBast01-20-04, 04:43 PM | Mag, I see what your saying about see invis, but seeing someone "as if" they were visible dosen't mean they are. I thought about that, but it dosen't work. The hide bonus is in effect as long as you have the invisibility status, and even if someone can see you, you still have the invis in effect, meaning you still get the hide bonus. Trust me, I tried to rule this one away and it can't be done. I wasen't really upset the player did this, and he isen't even the rules lawer in our group. He is kind of a new player, having only started in 3.0. To top it all off, he is playing the Pally, the last person who should have been concerned with his hide bonus. I kinda feel cheep even trying to use this loophole in the arena, as I don't even allow it in my own game. |
| Jindl01-20-04, 04:50 PM | Originally posted by MotherBast I kinda feel cheep even trying to use this loophole in the arena, as I don't even allow it in my own game. Don't worry. By popular interpretation, the loophole is closed. In the arena "see invisibility" will negate the hide bonus granted by invisibility. -Jindl |
| SnarkHunter01-20-04, 05:40 PM | @Jindle. I recall we had a very similar subject about tripping flying creatures and I suppose the same principal would apply. @Mo: Much as I hate to say it, I'd rather have pairings done on schedule then see my last gladiators fight. *sob*. ;) |
| Sir Cridion01-20-04, 07:07 PM | Hello everybody! Just came out of my lurky-ness to ask/say a few things: Are we going to do that Good vs. Evil battle anytime soon? I'm thinking of restarting Faldion. Which may or may not qualify him for the battle, which may or may not be a good thing because I think there's still an imbalance of goods and evils. Which (somehow) brings me to my next point: THAT ONE FIGHTER LEVEL WAS NOT WORTH IT!!! Sorry, I just had to get that out. But honestly, that one fighter feat and +2 fort, was not worth it. It would have been better to take a caster, or even ranger for the skills. Anyways, there doesn't seem to be any issues you guys are talking about atm, so nothing I can add an inane comment to. Thanks :) |
| Ethendril01-20-04, 07:26 PM | I'm not sure that Dusk is going to participate in the battle of good vs. evil, so maybe Faldion can step in for him. Dusk ate up a lot of resources in his last pounding by Smushy (including a dead mount), and is hurting. The reason this matters is that I think he will take leadership for his next feat, and I can't afford the -1 to reputation if I lose right now. -Ethendril |
| kattattack2201-20-04, 08:11 PM | But what about those of us with Neutral characters? Or is this a high level only thing? Does that mean there will be eventually a Law vs. Chaos battle? (Not really related but some of my friends love to make a joke about the epic battle of Good vs. Neutral.) |
| SnarkHunter01-21-04, 12:01 AM | Hooo man...good and evil fight. uh. Snarkhunter Runs away Anywho Mo. Hanz isn't updated (on the off chance wizard shows up again) but he is ready for this weeks fight. |
| cellardweller01-21-04, 12:07 AM | Hypothetical situation: A is at (-6,2) B is at (-10,4) A moves to (-6,4) and hides sucessfully B uses his move action to go to (-6,2) Can b use his standard action to fire an arrow at A? I have seen rulings both ways in previous fights. In my home game, we consider using the hide skill as "staying hidden" so the the line of sight that B gets to A after moving wouldn't allow him to see A without an active spot check. I can't really find any rules to back this position up though. |
| Arstimis01-21-04, 12:14 AM | Ya...my character wont be ready until i get an official ruling about those 3 illegal HP Babar had that would change the outcome of the fight....so i cant update my sheet if i dont know if i really won or not |
| Moherajikuyx01-21-04, 03:19 AM | Babar - argh! I didn't notice that. Kiowen won. darn. Ehm, Ethendril, I don't need tricks in the sleeve: all my aces are public. Pffft to you. Magagumo: the SRD has the glossary too, and you should read it:[i]from teh srd (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/TypesSubtypesAbilities.rtf): Rake (Ex): A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks when it grapples its foe. Normally, a monster can attack with only one of its natural weapons while grappling, but a monster with the rake ability usually gains two additional claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. Which confirms all what I said. Of course. |
| Hatzinger01-21-04, 06:41 AM | Stupid question, but since so many people include it in their tactics to drink a potion of mage armor, even while wearing armor: Does "Mage Armor" (armor bonus) and normal armor (armor bonus) stack here with these arena rules? |
| Caterane01-21-04, 07:12 AM | The Harvester challenges Skymoon Moonbow to a battle of black vs white (note that it is NOT evil vs good). Finally we both can use our mounted feats. If Ebelin is allowed to fight this week he takes Jindl under the High Forest. |
| Jindl01-21-04, 08:29 AM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Magagumo: the SRD has the glossary too, and you should read it: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- from the srd: Rake (Ex): A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks when it grapples its foe. Normally, a monster can attack with only one of its natural weapons while grappling, but a monster with the rake ability usually gains two additional claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Which confirms all what I said. Of course. Bravo! I am glad you found this, for we have been playing it wrong for a long time, in the campaign I play in. Also, will pairings be today? For I am considering bumping Iku to make the 5th level an even one... -Jindl |
| Caterane01-21-04, 09:28 AM | @Jindl: Yeah, that would be cool. Vandaeris could fight then @Mo: If one of my characters has to sit out due to #of Pc then make it Ebelin. |
| sshuit01-21-04, 09:53 AM | @snark. re : Hanz vs Sir Roger I challenge you to a single roll of the d20 for supreme victory if you are game. We can have a mod do it if you like. No point in us both sitting idle .... Have you heard from Wizard? sshuit |
| Jindl01-21-04, 10:01 AM | Originally posted by sshuit @snark. re : Hanz vs Sir Roger I challenge you to a single roll of the d20 for supreme victory if you are game. We can have a mod do it if you like. No point in us both sitting idle .... Okay! I rolled a 17. Um, who wins? |
| Caterane01-21-04, 10:07 AM | @Jindl: I guess you have to roll a second time and the higher one wins. New idea: What about challenging someone a level above you? Is this possible? |
| Jindl01-21-04, 10:14 AM | Originally posted by Caterane [BNew idea: What about challenging someone a level above you? Is this possible? [/B] You think Ebelin could take Bilo, huh? I'll be happy to mod the fight, if Snark agrees... But, while if EB won, it would be justified to give him the level and cash, it would not be justified to give Bilo a level and cash if he won, because he didn't defeat a gladiator of the same level. So, it would prolly be done as an exhibition match. -Jindl [EDIT] So its Skymoon vs the Harvester, which I guess means that Jindl will be facing off against Iron. Great [sarcasm]. Go ahead and pit me against the toughest guy in the arena... |
| Caterane01-21-04, 10:17 AM | No, not that way. I thought just in case someone has to sit out due to uneven # and the same happens a level above that, then the two could fight each other if the lower one challenges. |
| SnarkHunter01-21-04, 10:36 AM | @Cat, I'm trying to keep my workload managable so I don't want to have more then 2 active characters at any one time. I'm afraid Ebelin will have to wait. As for the harvester though... Harvester! They call you the avatar of death. Well I say you are merely a wicked soul, too long acoustomed to slaying the weak in their turn. Well today you fight not an elderly man, but Skymoon Moonbow, avatar of honor and rightousness. Whatever fiend you call you master-prepare to meet him! Good times. @sshuit: uh...right... We could just fight again this week. That way I wouldn't have to write new tactics at least. @Hat: the bonuses overlap. That is, whichever bonus is larger is counted and the other plays no part. One exception is that Mage armor-while it does not protect against touch attacks-can protect against ethereal weapons. |
| Jindl01-21-04, 10:46 AM | from the SRD Horseshoes of Speed: These iron shoes come in sets of four like ordinary horseshoes. When affixed to an animal’s hooves, they increase the animal’s base land speed by 30 feet; this counts as an enhancement bonus. As with other effects that increase speed, jumping distances increase proportionally. All four shoes must be worn by the same animal for the magic to be effective. Can these horseshoes be used by a creature who walks upright on two legs and has talons instead of hooves? Because Iron's megaraptor is wearing these right now... (and I think that it shouldn't be able to wear them). -Jindl |
| sshuit01-21-04, 11:47 AM | @jindle : re Megaraptor + Horseshoes of speed. I'd have to say no. Sound like you need 1. Hooves, 2. 4 hooves. Seems pretty clear from the item description. @snark so I guess you haven't heard from Wizard then either.... *hmph* |
| Ethendril01-21-04, 11:50 AM | Ehm, Ethendril, I don't need tricks in the sleeve: all my aces are public. Pffft to you. @ Mo: It was all said tongue in cheek. I apologize if I didn't make that clear. I was simply checking out your character as I thought about whether to accept your challenge, and noticed the HD problem. I know it was not intentional, and I know your aces are public. My apologies. -Ethendril EDIT: Can a centaur wear horseshoes of speed, even if it is not an animal? |
| Tellish_of_Ket01-21-04, 01:07 PM | Ya but ethendril, the only problem is he's got two decks, so infact he has 8 aces. LOL @All - Huge central obstacle. I'm not sure how it favor's melee types, because they heavily rely on getting to casters fast to make buffing more difficult. I think the only reason initiative is becoming more and more important (as it should be) is because the gladiators are being built with that purpose in mind. With that big central pillar, how many horseshoes of speed would there be? How many ppl would have taken improved initiative? How many extra fights Zorander would have lost? (j/k) For now, it seems like it would heavily favor spell casters and nerf melee types that can use a bit of luck to zorander there opponent or suffer a humiliating defeat by a flying, cackling, buffed up mage. I know none of my pc's would benefit from the huge central obstacle. Nevrlokagyft's archery ability relies seeing his opponent first turn to put some pressure on the spellcasters. Otherwise, he/she goes invis and i have to just wait until they are super-buffed before doing anything. Same with Hurtz/bracking/rito, and all the other meleers at higher levels. Our only chance against a caster is to RUN to the other side asap. If they get away, we're toast, or have to rely on luck. I do agree to use it consentually though. Two casters facing off against each other can agree to put it up. But i doubt a pure melee vs caster, you'd find the melee-guy in such a hurry to raise the obstacle. Personally, i'd rather die first turn to a PK, rather than a 36 turn loss from magic missle/spectral hands, numerous fireballs, dispells, acid arrows, all while improved invis. One turn losses saves a melee gladiator many resources. @Intelligent Weapons + Leadership feat. How about the leadership score must be equal to or less than the ego of the weapon. I've done several calculations and it seems VERY balancing indeed. Maybe even a bit underpowered. Perhaps even leadership score equals half the weapons ego? Tellish |
| Magagumo01-21-04, 01:24 PM | @Moh Agreed w/ Jindl, seems I've been screwing it up as well. Sorry about that, thank you for actually taking the time to read the description (I thought I read it my way, but I can't complain w/ cold, hard facts in front of me ;)) Hmm, Bruno would like to fight someone new (Iron was a fun, new challenge :)) According to a first glnce, that means Hurtz or Brackin :). Provided I don't roll out, I would love to tussle with either of you fellows... if you're in and up to it that is ^_~. Zorander is updated. On Leadership: I've been thinking this over, and I think we need to disregard the rule about losing cohorts (and the associated penalty). After all, we have already thrwn out the rules which force Wizards, Sorcerors, paladins, and Druids to wait a year and one day (give or take) to acquire a new friend, so why are we retaining this penalty. In the spirirt of fairness and good sportsmenship, I say we eliminate this rule in our arena, so that no one is penalized if people start focusing on thier friends (After all, targetting a foe's cohort would mean we would have subsequently weaker cohorts. Eventually, he could be leveling, but never getting a better friend if everyone kept mauling the subsequently weaker ally.. its a downward spiral that needn't have to happen.) |
| Jindl01-21-04, 01:30 PM | Originally posted by Magagumo After all, we have already thrwn out the rules which force Wizards, Sorcerors, paladins, and Druids to wait a year and one day (give or take) to acquire a new friend, so why are we retaining this penalty. Actually, paladins only have to wait 1 month, and druids don't have to wait at all, just perform another 24 hour ritual. I agree with what your saying though, but if we use my suggestion to automatically ressurect fallen allies, then the "death" of the cohort is irrelevant, as it was true ressurected afterwards. -Jindl |
| Moherajikuyx01-21-04, 01:57 PM | Thanks Mag, I'm actually taking some glory from others, the imp. grab and grapple issues were discussed in the monkeys newsgroup and I followed it. Well, take a look, actually just following it is not that easy :) true ToK? Eth, no offense taken absolutely, "Pfft to you" isn't a bad word even in Italian :) And thanks for checking, I'm beginning Babar in a campaign too. The feats will be different, but the concept the same. Megaraptor shoes - from the games prospective, it's exactly the same thing: the used slots are identical (there's no difference between boots of speed for humans or devils...), magic items adapt when wearing, and the warhorses have the front hooves as attacks exactly like the mega. If you prefer I can write "catshoes of speed" on a dire tiger, or "dinoshoes" on the mega and add "follow the rules for horseshoes". Fundamentally, I don't want everybody to be a clone and have to use a nightmare. Intelligent items - I like the proposal. Anyone sees any problem? Central obstacle - isn't the chance to use it if both agree the best way? Cohorts - mages do have some restrictions. They have to pay a huge xp cost, now that we agreed on the price of xps, in case the familliar is slain during a match (I think they should be free to change them at no cost btw). We threw away only time constraints, too hard to simulate, and we tried to put a gold cost instead (see crafting). Eliminating other types of constraints makes me feel bad and cheap. |
| Tharkos01-21-04, 02:28 PM | Megaraptor claws will tear apart any sort of shoes you will design for them IMO and they certainly arent suited for horseshoes, so thats one of the downsides to having such a "monster" pet. Concerning Leadership I can only say that it wont ever be as good as animated undead or druid/Handle Animal pets because we denied classed cohorts from that AND it has a "max level = your level -2" limit while the other two options dont. As long as this discrepancy still exists Leadership will be the weakest option. The central obstacle (or rather the non-existance of it) favors melee / archers very much in the lower level due to the possibility of first round kills vs low-hp casters. That will not change much when it gets to higher levels because the damage dealt by such characters will probably be suitably minmaxed so they can still deal a lot of damage to relatively low-hp casters so it is only going to take a round or two more if the archer wins initiative and is focused on offense. Another part of the "first round victory problem" is the fact that the one who looses initiative is considered to be flat-footed. Quite ridiculous IMO because they arent asleep and very much aware of their opponent. Allowing everyone a "readied action" would even this a little IMO, because everyone gets at least one chance to react. |
| Moherajikuyx01-21-04, 02:37 PM | No claw will rip a magic item. classed cohorts are still open in the polls: for the new ones, I invite everybody to have a look to the polls thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=114957) and post there once, and then to edit your post for any vote! There are some polls still open! And now, STOP EDITING: PAIRINGS UNDER COURSE!!! :D |
| Jindl01-21-04, 02:41 PM | Originally posted by Tharkos Concerning Leadership I can only say that it wont ever be as good as animated undead or druid/Handle Animal pets because we denied classed cohorts from that AND it has a "max level = your level -2" limit while the other two options dont. As long as this discrepancy still exists Leadership will be the weakest option. This is exactly why I support allowing classed cohorts. To alleviate the discreptancy. @Mo - well, it seems the magic item is intended for hooves. Based on your response, then Jindl could get himself some horseshoes of speed, put them on as a human, and then wear them in whatever form he shifts into. I don't think this is the correct interpretation on the magic item. For example, compare them to boots of striding / springing, which only grant a +10 feet speed bonus for quite a higher cost. The horseshoes can only be used by hooved creatures, hence the discount on the price. -Jindl [EDIT] @Mo - The Elder will be sitting out, as I have yet to update him (spells mem'd). Also, I will likely be retiring Iku, to bring in a new character next week (using the credits I have saved up :D). So, please give me two fights to mod, even though Jindl is my only active guy this week. |
| Caterane01-21-04, 02:42 PM | Everyone who has voted on classed cohorts voted with YES. It`s already pretty clear. @Mo: Remember: If one of my glads has to sit out let this be Ebelin. I posted the challenges on my character sheet |
| Arstimis01-21-04, 03:02 PM | What? No! Stop! you can't be doing pairings now I haven't had a chance to level up kiowen. I didn't find out I won till this morning right before I went to school. I haven't had a min to even try to level up. I'm planning on doing it when I get home in 30 mins.....so..... |
| Moherajikuyx01-21-04, 03:52 PM | Uh, well ok I'll try to do them tomorrow morning soon, it should do little difference to the newcontinentals. Hasta mañana chiquos! |
| Magagumo01-21-04, 03:55 PM | Hmm, perhaps Jindl, but I believe the horsehoes were intended for a mount to sue.. no reason a griffon wouldn't be able to, honestly ... It's based off haste, but does not grant the AC, Attack, and Rex bonuses (or the extra attack). Honestly, I would let MOh have them, as their prupose is for a mount to use, and the raptor is a mount. Also @ Jindl TY for writing down the accurate delay times for reacquiring classed cohorts, I was dashing out and didn't have time to look them up ;) Glad to hear classed cohorts were permitted, I assume Moh would be gracious enough to allow Hanz and CAndy time to fix their own cohorts? |
| Caterane01-21-04, 03:57 PM | @Mo: Kiowen will face Dusk because Vandaeris will set out due to # of Pc so there`s no need to delay pairings. I would prefer to get started with tactics tonight. Tomorow is too much to do. |
| Arstimis01-21-04, 03:58 PM | Ok...im done now...thanks for waiting |
| Caterane01-21-04, 04:06 PM | :mad: Hrmpf, no pairings today. Mo, I have a request: no fight to mod this week. I have 2 active characters (both Harvesters) and pay 1 credit for this favor. I think Jindl - in pursuit of his halfdragon - will gladly jump in ;) won`t he? |
| Jindl01-21-04, 04:14 PM | @Cat - No problem, bud. Besides, I still owe ya one for when Ebelin sat out to let the Elder face Iron... so I got your fight covered. BTW: I posted a little continuation of the Jindl of the High Forest story, post-Bilo fight. And, sad to say it, but Iku Rex is retired. The errata to polymorph capping the spell to the subjects HD, and the transference of this to PAO, simply makes the outsider shifter not viable at low levels. And I don't feel like bumping a character many times just to get him to maturity. He will be replaced soon, most likely by an ECL4 or ECL5 creation. -Jindl |
| Caterane01-21-04, 04:19 PM | You still have this +15 natural armor in Ravid form!? That`s pretty good to survive lower levels. It would be a pity if you retire him for I was curious about his development. Perhaps you might rethink your decision. And many thanks for the fight!! |
| Jindl01-21-04, 04:22 PM | Originally posted by Caterane You still have this +15 natural armor in Ravid form!? That`s pretty good to survive lower levels. It would be a pity if you retire him for I was curious about his development. Perhaps you might rethink your decision. 1-trick pony. High AC, low touch AC. Makes him good against fighters and sucky against everything else. Plus, the cost of scrolls, etc was way, way too expensive. I am pondering a templated character. Perhaps a ghost at ECL 6??? -Jindl |
| Caterane01-21-04, 04:28 PM | That would be damn cool. We need more exotic characters. During the next semester break I gather a few creds to make a cool unique character, too. Draining touch would be evil! Everyone has at least one bad stat and if this is at 0 he`s as good as dead. Then you are incorporal and have lots of immunities. But that are a lot of credits. |
| Ethendril01-21-04, 04:35 PM | It would be a pity if you retire him for I was curious about his development. Perhaps you might rethink your decision. I also thought Iku was very cool, and dreaded fighting him. He played a big part in Dusk's story so far. It will be sad to see him go. We need more exotic characters. I originally thought Dusk would be fairly unique, but is now one of three up and coming Dragon Disciples. I'm wanting my next character to be more "exotic," and now that I'm taking fights and only have one character, I'm trying to save up some credits for my next character. With our current system, how many credits would it take to create a centaur, ogre, or minotaur? With the cost of racial HD, does doing a template make a lot more sense? How many credits would a half-celestial, half-dragon, or ghost cost? I remember seeing the discussion about this, but I wasn't sure what the consensus was... -Ethendril |
| Jindl01-21-04, 04:40 PM | Aye, 12 credits for ECL 6. I'm halfway there :D. So, Ghost Elf Monk 1: Dex, Wis, and Cha to AC. Incorporeal - only damaged by magic + energy with a 50% miss chance, or by force and ghost touch wpns with no miss chance; also makes no noise, and can pass through solid objects. Draining touch - Touch attack deals 1d4 ability points damage in the ability of choice, ghost gains 5 hps for each successful touch (combine with flurry of blows). Malevolence - Magic Jar attack, easy way to take over and suicide your opponent (or his ally). Telekinesis - at will, use violent thrust for standard damaging attacks. Keeps his "ghostly" equipment, which better include a brooch of shielding ;). -Jindl @Ethendril: Ogre = 4 racial HD +2 LA +0 class lvl = ECL 6 = 12 credits Centaur = 4 racial HD +2 LA +0 class lvl = ECL 6 = 12 credits Minotaur = 6 racial HD +2 LA +0 class lvl = ECL 8 = 18 credits Half-celestial = 0 racial HD +4 LA + 1 class lvl = ECL 5 = 9 credits Half-dragon = 0 racial HD +3 LA +1 class lvl = ECL 4 = 6 credits Ghost = 0 racial HD +5 LA +1 class lvl = ECL 6 = 12 credits |
| Caterane01-21-04, 04:46 PM | Awsome character. A bit low in hp but the Ac should be high up the roof. Drawback is that you cannot use potions and scrolls. I need 9 credits for mine: Half-Celestial Paladin2/ClericX with 22 in Consti, 24 with an amulet of health. |
| Ethendril01-21-04, 04:54 PM | So, Ghost Wood Elf Monk 1: Dex, Wis, and Cha to AC. Incorporeal - only damaged by magic + energy with a 50% miss chance, or by force and ghost touch wpns with no miss chance; also makes no noise, and can pass through solid objects. Draining touch - Touch attack deals 1d4 ability points damage in the ability of choice, ghost gains 5 hps for each successful touch (combine with flurry of blows). Malevolence - Magic Jar attack, easy way to take over and suicide your opponent (or his ally). Telekinesis - at will, use violent thrust for standard damaging attacks. Half-Celestial Paladin2/ClericX with 22 in Consti, 24 with an amulet of health. [Involutarily shudders] EDIT: Oh, if I create a character with racial HD, say a minotaur, can I still customize the feat selection, etc. For example, do I have to take Great Fortitude as a feat and the same skills that the MM minotaur has? @Jindl: Thanks for the list. |
| Jindl01-21-04, 04:58 PM | No, you can pick whatever feats you wish for your racial HD. But the skills listed in the monster description are your racial "class" skills, so keep that in mind while assigning skill points. -Jindl EDIT: Actually, halfling may be a better base race for my ghost monk than wood elf... hrmm. |
| Tharkos01-21-04, 06:04 PM | .... or take the plunge and add another credit for Aasimar to it Jindl and get +2 WIS and +2 CHA modifiers .... |
| Tharkos01-21-04, 06:10 PM | Originally posted by Jindl This is exactly why I support allowing classed cohorts. To alleviate the discreptancy. Classed cohorts *might* lessen the discrepancy, but if you have to equip them from your own gold that is going to be expensive or leave one character vulnerable. And the "max level -2" will still make them pretty weak, i.e. Fighter cohorts will be semi-useless if thrown into a fight with a megaraptor or whatever undead beast there is. |
| Moherajikuyx01-21-04, 06:41 PM | Originally posted by Jindl Jindl could get himself some horseshoes of speed Only if he has 4 foot slots... I think that mechanically, if shaped in anything with 4 foot slots, from before the fight, he can. (And even during the fight if he finds the time to wear them after shaping). This game doesn't make a difference among slots of the same type, for what concerns magic items. If one has a slot he wears the item. The exceptions are clearly listed. I don't think you'd make any problems to a minotaur to wear boots of speed, even if they're ovbviously not suited: magic items shape to fit the wearer... As one who shapes often surely knows. I think that the used word is hoof only because the most common mount is the horse. And to get back to more important things! 10 hourse to the pairings! let's try to get the time back next week. Wizard you don't post from the 16th, if you don't reply to my pm I'll assign the fight again. I hope to hear again from you! |
| Sir Cridion01-21-04, 08:38 PM | Phew, I'm actually kinda glad pairings aren't done yet... Faldion is going inactive. I'm posting a new character in his place... |
| LLMadCow01-21-04, 11:45 PM | @Mo - Herrix is ready for the next round of combat, and has been ready for a little while. Herrix needs to be moved from the Level 3 list to the Level 4 list, since he has won 2 fights. Also, if you wanted, Herrix and Babar can fight at this point. |
| Pitlords01-22-04, 04:03 AM | Pairings under course: stop editing! :) |
| Moherajikuyx01-22-04, 05:07 AM | Illusory pattern! PAIRINGS READY! There are a lot of odd levels this week, sadly. ToK: I gave you a lot of fights I know, but this way you can pay the credits to make Nevrlok follow the actual rules of pcs starting at ECL>2. I hope I assigned all the credits correctly, as always tell me any error. Let's try to get back to wednesdays ok? And now... Have fun! |
| Alterlat01-22-04, 05:43 AM | Speaking of Nevrlokagyft, why does he have ECL 7 at level 6? There seems to be something badly wrong there. |
| Caterane01-22-04, 06:13 AM | ToK: I gave you a lot of fights I know, but this way you can pay the credits to make Nevrlok follow the actual rules of pcs starting at ECL>2 I think ToK modded plenty of additional fights already due to our previous rule (2 fights for 1 such Pc) so I would say he has payed his bill. Just my 2 cents. |
| Moherajikuyx01-22-04, 07:20 AM | Originally posted by Alterlat Speaking of Nevrlokagyft, why does he have ECL 7 at level 6? There seems to be something badly wrong there. Ehm! As everyone knows, I can't err, thus you saw wrong... :D Cat, you're right, but dura lex sed lex... And it's a pair of lvl 2 fights. |
| sshuit01-22-04, 07:50 AM | erm... Voliana was out last week and seems to be out again this week . Is this correct? sshuit |
| Caterane01-22-04, 07:53 AM | Tactics sent for both Harvesters :b: |
| Moherajikuyx01-22-04, 07:56 AM | You didn't write "ready for" sshuit ;( I'll make her fight with Babar. *Edit* OK done, I hope all is well now :) |
| Jindl01-22-04, 08:25 AM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Cat, you're right, but dura lex sed lex... And it's a pair of lvl 2 fights. I'll be happy to take the Drakiel fight off of Tellish's hands. I kinda wanted to mod two fights this week (since I'm NOT going back to the beach, and I need 5 more credits to bring in the ghost...) -Jindl |
| Jindl01-22-04, 10:37 AM | Originally posted by Tharkos .... or take the plunge and add another credit for Aasimar to it Jindl and get +2 WIS and +2 CHA modifiers .... Unfortunately, the Ghost template cannot be added to Outsiders, else I could have Iku's spirit haunting Dusk :devil: -Jindl |
| Ethendril01-22-04, 11:33 AM | Unfortunately, the Ghost template cannot be added to Outsiders, else I could have Iku's spirit haunting Dusk :eek: |
| kattattack2201-22-04, 11:43 AM | Ok, I am sorry I don't mean to rag on moderators, but I have some questions from Lucius last couple of fights considering Darkness. It seems both times that my oppoents have found me within it when as far as I know you cannot see in Darkness even with darkvision (giving 20% concelment) and to spot someone in complete darkness adds a +10 to the DC. I was just wondering if my opponents got some circumstance bonus (considering the first time I didn't move and the second my opponent saw me run into it.) or just got real lucky on their spot? I really respect you guys for taking time to run these fights and post them up. I just want some clarification so I can adjust my tatics for future fights. |
| sshuit01-22-04, 11:44 AM | @mo Thx for the fight. Poor Voliana has sat out for too long . She's itching to kill / maim / injure something. Preferably a fuzzy little kitten :smirk: sshuit |
| Moherajikuyx01-22-04, 11:45 AM | Originally posted by Jindl I'll be happy to take the Drakiel fight off of Tellish's hands. I kinda wanted to mod two fights this week (since I'm NOT going back to the beach, and I need 5 more credits to bring in the ghost...) -Jindl ToK's modding all the fights, he wants to get rid of the penalty. Well, maybe anybody else could give you a fight, it's a good offer. |
| Caterane01-22-04, 12:35 PM | Do you remember the times when there were too few moderators and we had to skip weeks? This new credit rule...rules. @Kattattack: Nice avatar |
| Ethendril01-22-04, 12:50 PM | Tactics received for Babar and Voliana. I will most likely run the fight tomorrow. -Ethendril EDIT: @Magagumo: Tactics sent for Dusk vs. Kiowen. |
| Magagumo01-22-04, 02:44 PM | Hmm Zorander's tactics are already out (Can it be that Mag is sending them otu on time?? :eek: :D) @ Jindl I just lent my friend my MM (so I have an excuse for making unfounded statements ;)) but I though ghosts only got 1 incorporeal touch a round. Certainly, since Vampires may only deal their 2 negative levels 1/round (so that vamprire monks aren't hideously broken), I would assume this is the same with ghosts. Actually, I'm almost positive they only get one touch a round, so that even fighter ghosts wouldn't become too much of a problem. Haste would probbably do ya right, but I'm not sure you could use it both times, I'll see when my book gets returned to me. Hmm, if there are any extra fights sitting out there, I wouldn't mind snagging an extra so I can get a credit. One day, Ayan will enter this arena officially (most likely when Bruno or Zorander get frozen at some high level.. probably 12 or 13 at the rate we are going), and I want her to have the nicest advanatage possible.. at least 1 extra level, if not two ;) |
| Caterane01-22-04, 02:52 PM | And what would that Ayan be? Don`t let me wait! I`m curious now |
| SnarkHunter01-22-04, 03:12 PM | One query before I as well begin work on tactics, is there any consensus about undead vis a vis the giving of commands to? Onbiously that could have some small impact on the Harvester/Moonmoon fight. |
| Jindl01-22-04, 04:10 PM | I believe the final answer was that animated undead work via verbal commands (which could cause problems when within the radius of silence spells, or when casting a full-round spell). But, since they lack nervous systems, they cannot be used as mounts for purposes of the mounted combat feats. -Jindl |
| Caterane01-22-04, 04:19 PM | But, since they lack nervous systems, they cannot be used as mounts for purposes of the mounted combat feats. Ooookay, and if you now show me the exact line in any core book I will agree with you. You surely don`t base your statement on "common sense"!? :eek: |
| Jindl01-22-04, 04:32 PM | Originally posted by MotherBast I would also agree with Tharkos that undead mounts can't be "ridden" as normal mounts. I think I remember somewhere in the DMG a reference stating a mount must have 4 or less INT. If undead had 0 Int they would qualify. However, they don't, they don't have an intelegence score at all, meaning that while you could theoraticly sit atop an undead, noting that effected a mount, such as munted combat, would effect it, as it isen't a mount. Actually, I was basing it off of MotherBast's earlier statement. Which is correct, and can be sourced in the DMG. I have very little common sense ;) -Jindl |
| Caterane01-22-04, 04:49 PM | That`s good Jindl, because I just checked the DMG and found nothing. The Mounted combat feat description doesn`t say anything about undead, too. And Motherbasts "I think I remember" isn`t enough to convince me so unless someone shows me the page I`ll use my mounted combat feats. Edit: A mount has to have an int of 4 or LESS??? What about dragons, magical beasts or even Monkbane? *lol* No further comments needed... Surely Motherbast confused this with the membership application of a boy pop group |
| Jindl01-22-04, 04:59 PM | 1 - MotherBast's reference came from the "Other creatures as mounts" section of the DMG. 2 - Snarkhunter asked what the "consensus" was, and the consensus (of the 5 or 6 people in the discussion) was that undead mounts could not be "ridden" for purposes of the mounted combat feats. 3 - Don't be getting upset with me about it. It's a consensus about a rules interpretation. Just like the recent nerfing of PAO. When rules are unclear (like this whole undead mount thing), then what other method of determining how to handle situations would you suggest? There was a discussion (pages 145-146) and the consensus was as I listed above. -Jindl |
| Caterane01-22-04, 05:32 PM | This sectioin (DMG, p204) states: Suitable mounts: A mount should have the following characteristics: - Able and willing to carry its rider - At least one size categorie larger than the rider - The mount`s CR should be no more than 3 less than the rider`s character level. No word about intelligence, nervous systems or even anything close. I`m going to check this "consensus" now but when I think back to arguments like Tharkos`ones I can imagine on what this consensus is based on. |
| kattattack2201-22-04, 05:44 PM | @Caterane - @Kattattack: Nice avatar Thanks, spent a lot time going through all the avatars Wizards had to offer to find a suitable one. |
| Arstimis01-22-04, 05:51 PM | Originally posted by Caterane This sectioin (DMG, p204) states: Suitable mounts: A mount should have the following characteristics: - Able and willing to carry its rider - At least one size categorie larger than the rider - The mount`s CR should be no more than 3 less than the rider`s character level. So..do you have to follow these rules. If so..what did the arena ever to do the - The mount`s CR should be no more than 3 less than the rider`s character level. rule? just wondering |
| Caterane01-22-04, 05:55 PM | Here are a few excerpts from the main supporting arguments. I`ll comment them. Since the undead didnt "learn" these things it has to be pushed into the right direction by its master And that is just wrong. I covered the "no brains" issue some posts above. Like humanoid skeletons retain their weapon proficiencies, mounts retain their - call it knowledge - how to carry a rider. It is nowhere written otherwise and we have to get away from the "undead = piles of flesh" impression. Then Tellish wanted a source for all these statements: posted by Tok: If you know a source or can quote where this is written, it would certainly help. ...and as an answer came: 1. Common sense, 2. Undead follow orders and any arena fight has to be commanded on the spot. Or to say it in other words: "I have no source and no idea." But the arguments weren`t finished yet: Yeah well WotC designers have proven they are mindless automatons (undead) sometimes themselves because of quite a few copy&paste errors Of course, it`s all WotC fault!!! They forgot to write it!!! And another statement which instantly convinced me: I just read somewhere that a mindless undead looses any "special skills" and for me this would include the knowledge of how to make grapple attacks. Mag, have you heard? No more grappling with Tony. Even Bilo can pummel him to the ground. But wait! Undead are even stupider than that: Orders of "attack" would mean it attacks the nearest thing including the creator Necromancers beware!! If you don`t engage in a 2 hours lecture with your just animated skeleton it will turn on you. Hopefully you didn`t tell it how to walk because it would fall to the ground instantly for having no brain. Just kidding. It cannot even understand language without a brain so WotC wanted to fool us when they wrote "vocal orders". Gladly we unveiled this ruse. Now we come to an interesting part: In any case an undead has no nerves, so it cant sense any usual "riding stuff" like giving it the spurs or using a whip and thus some riding skill special maneuvers (guiding with knees, spur mount, ...) dont apply unless the action is "for your own benefit" (soft fall, fast mount / dismount, ...). Yes. In the DMG on page 795 in the "Nervous systems of all Monsters" section is clearly written that undead have no nervous systems and so it cant sense any usual "riding stuff" like giving it the spurs or using a whip and thus some riding skill special maneuvers (guiding with knees, spur mount, ...) dont apply unless the action is "for your own benefit" (soft fall, fast mount / dismount, ...) After that, there were just 2 more posts with MotherBast`s and Barrelmaster`s opinions: I agree with Tharkos in the sense that these animals can't be directed with the char's legs and as such they can't use feats such as Mounted combat... and I would also agree with Tharkos that undead mounts can't be "ridden" as normal mounts. I think I remember somewhere in the DMG a reference stating a mount must have 4 or less INT. And then my long post came after which the discussion ended. Jindl, I don`t see any consensus. |
| Caterane01-22-04, 06:07 PM | Ok, after all these hot arguments entirely based upon personal impressions/opinions and in no way backed up by rules, it`s my turn to throw in ...not my impression but the way it is covered by the rules. 1) Animated mounts are still considered mounts 2) If you have a mount you can use Mounted combat feats These two arguments combined clearly say how it is going to work. There is no other information about undead mounts. I`m glad we finally found a consensus. |
| Jindl01-22-04, 06:49 PM | consensus - a majority opinion. In this case, there were 6 people in the discussion, and 4 of them agreed that "commanded by verbal commands" means you cannot use mounted combat feats because they rely on non-verbal methods of mounted control, such as pulling on the reigns or guiding by your knees. 4 out of 6 is a consensus. FYI: The four people were Tharkos, barrel_master, MotherBast, and myself. The other two people in the discussion were Tellish (whose opinion is unclear) and yourself. The other comments Tharkos made regarding grappling, the WoTC designers, and the capacity to distinguish which target you wish it to attack, are all irrelevant to our discussion on using a mindless creature as a mount (and were not agreed upon by the consensus). If you want to expand the discussion to a vote on the polls thread, then ask Mo for one. That's exactly what was done on the PAO discussion. In the meantime, Snarkhunter asked what the consensus of the discussion was, and I correctly answered him. -Jindl |
| MotherBast01-22-04, 07:16 PM | The quote I thought I remembered is actually from the Leadership feat, and says the mount may not have an intellegence of "less than" four, not more than four as I orrigonaly thought. As far as undead and mounts go, I think now that the mounted combat feats could be used with mounts, as none of the feats expressly say how the feat is exacuted. So, you could say then that you use Ride-by-attack by giving a verbal command to your horse to preform the action. It is a role-play issue how you use your feats. Two monks might defelct arrows in two differnet ways. The monted feats are the same. Since I was wrong about the intellegence issue, I would have to change my opionin on the matter. It seems Undead could be mounts, so I agree with what Cat has said, though not the method he has used to say it. On another note, connected.... Lately, I have seen more and more of what I would call "angry posts" on this thread. I am worried by this trend. I have seen it not only from Cat recently, but even MO once or twice, as well as a couple of others. I'm not going to sit here and say "its just a game, don't get upset" because quite frankly, I get :censored::censored::censored::censored: :censored::censored: off about some of the stuff that happens in this game, and some of the rules we discuss too. I am also not trying to judge, but I am mearly stating my concern for the condition of the arena as a whole. This sort of thing could result in resentment from newer players, and could scare away people who might otherwise have been fine additions to the thread. I mentioned Cat and MO specificly because they are senior mods, and I think perhaps that carries with it a responsibility to set a standard for the rest of us. Personly, Cat, and I mean no offence, but your last couple of posts have offended me, and I'm sure others as well. Not because you said anything bad about me, but it just seemed to be your intention TO offend, judging by the way you wrote your statments. Forgive me if I read them incorrectly. My point is, everyone on this thread used to adress one another as friends, or at least with a great deal of respect. I see less of that now and it bothers me. I just wanted everyone to know the mood of the thread has noticably changed. I'm sure I'm not the only one to have noticed. |
| Arstimis01-22-04, 07:22 PM | So no comments about my post..or did no one see it because it was right before cat's lengthy post Originally posted by Caterane This sectioin (DMG, p204) states: Suitable mounts: A mount should have the following characteristics: - Able and willing to carry its rider - At least one size categorie larger than the rider - The mount`s CR should be no more than 3 less than the rider`s character level. So..do you have to follow these rules. If so..what did the arena ever to do the - The mount`s CR should be no more than 3 less than the rider`s character level. rule? just wondering |
| Jindl01-22-04, 07:27 PM | My apologies, Arstimis. In answer to your question, the arena ignored that rule. With it in place, warhorses could not be used by anyone of less than 5th level, paladins could never ride their special mounts, etc. The Harvester's skeleton is CR 7, btw, which fits the criteria for a 10th level character... Actually, it doesn't. The rule says CR must be 4 less than character level if the creature can fly. So the flying CR 7 skeleton is inappropriate for any character lower than 11th level. -Jindl |
| MotherBast01-22-04, 07:39 PM | An earlier question about Darkness was posted, and no one answered it. The 3.5 Darkness spell does not create a total darkness effect. It causes an object to emit a shadowey illumination which causes a 20% miss chance that Darkvision and Low-light vision will not lesson or remove. It also has no hide bonus. The true power of this spell is in the dungon, where players usually depend on torches or the light spell to see. Darkness overides both of these, so it would effectivly blind anyone in its radius in a dungon. characters with Darkvision could still see, but would have the Misschance still. All my NPC casters in dungons pack the darkness spell. My players spent 2k on darvision potions last session, (at level 7), only to have a lesser beholder disple 3 out of 4 of them, forcing them to use there second potions. In an arena, Darkness is not as good, as you foe can still see you, and a 20% miss chance will only help you 1 in 5 times. |
| Arstimis01-22-04, 08:22 PM | I actually like that rule...early level PC's shouldnt be allowed a heavy warhorse. Maybe its just me, cause i almost lost to 2 heavy warhorses...the opponent wasnt the problem, the heavy warhorse was....i think its too strong for low levels to have but i guess i shouldnt be complaining anymore i got me a Giant Eagle :) |
| Magagumo01-22-04, 09:18 PM | This is just me, but I thought the guidelines for mount CR were for Leadership? If not, then I apologize for my lack of knowledge. I have no problem w/ Harvester having a Cauchemar. Granted, it's incredibly scary, but who am I to talk, right? :) Then again, I still think it's a shame that Elder isn't feebleminding everyone... my opinion would certainly change if he and Bruno fought again, but I think we try our best to avoid that, eh Jindl? Somehow, I just think that those two are far too dangerous to one another... |
| barrel_master01-22-04, 11:57 PM | Originally posted by Caterane Ooookay, and if you now show me the exact line in any core book I will agree with you. You surely don`t base your statement on "common sense"!? :eek: Hummm... would you agree that you can not ride undead and that one can only sit on such a creature? |
| kattattack2201-23-04, 12:12 AM | An earlier question about Darkness was posted, and no one answered it. @MotherBast- Yes, I did post a question about Darkness and thank you for clafiying for me. Ethendil also sent me a pm explaining much about the rulings on this spell as well. I have a feeling about finding about how little this helps Lucius will not be using it much in the future. |
| sshuit01-23-04, 12:30 AM | re : undead as mounts. Here's what I could find in the rulebooks. No extrapolations, no common sense, just rules. 1) Examples of mounts in the PHB : Ride description , Horse, Riding Dog, Griffin, or "some other kind of creature suited for riding" not very helpful. 2) Handle animal : Teaching an animal a trick / purpose Combat riding : 6 tricks, requires an intelligence of 2, so undead could not be taught to be a mount. Fighting : 3 tricks (no int requirement) Guarding : 4 tricks (2 int minimum) Heavy labor : 3 tricks (no int requirement) Hunting : 6 tricks (2 int minimum) Performance : 5 tricks (2 int minimum) Riding : 3 tricks (no int requirement) So since it seems that you would have to teach your undead mount how to be a mount at some point, it could only be taught to 1. Fight 2. heavy labor 3. Riding (but not combat riding so it would be like a non-warhorse) All the above rules are in the PHB and DMG, I don't think that an undead would just "know" or "remember" how to be a mount. So I'm pretty sure it would have to be trained just like any other animal/mount. |
| KerlanRayne01-23-04, 12:48 AM | From sshuit's post it looks to me that you can't train an undead to be your mount, but I think you could train a mount and then make him undead. So you would have to subdue a mount and use Handle Animal to train it. Then you could make it into undead. How's that sound? KerlanRayne |
| LLMadCow01-23-04, 01:07 AM | I disagree with using Handle Animal to train an Undead Mount. I agree with allowing Undead to be used as mounts. I do have to say that any living creature suitable as a mount is also suitable as an undead mount. Since Command Undead requires that they be able to HEAR you, I would say that riding an Undead (ZOMBIE or SKELETON) mount would require vocal commands such as Charge, Run, Move, Attack, etc. However, since Magic is no restricted by language barriers, I might go so far as to say that consistent varied vocal commands in some manner could work, although the exact dynamics of this are very much up for debate. The MM example for instruction includes: "Kill anyone who enters this room." That is rather specific in that the Zombie must acknowledge the parameters of This Room and Kill Anyone, but I do believe that the owner may get attacked when they return. Also remember that Zombies move at half speed and have limited attack abilities. Just my thoughts.... |
| Tellish_of_Ket01-23-04, 01:35 AM | Done. Another Zorander. The dice gods favored one of the two combatants. double 20's are nice to see when doing low-level fights. Ends fights very quickly and very decisively. Ahem, of course....no offence to the one that suffers from it. Coralias vs Lucius (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2400666#post2400666) the link to the dastardly online roller follows the fight. Tellish |
| Tellish_of_Ket01-23-04, 02:37 AM | Hey all, Just need a quick refresher on tower shields. It's past my bedtime and can't find what i'm looking for. Can you cast spells while benefiting from full cover of a tower shield? Casting a spell on an object on a dwarf's possession, do they gain the benefit of their racial +2 to save vs spells and effects? If someone doesn't have tower shield proficiency and attempts to cast spells while holding it for defense, is there any spell failure associated with it? Must admit, i'm rusty on my tower shield knowledge and it's intricacies. Tellish. (off to bed, finish rest of my fights tomorrow) |
| Tharkos01-23-04, 03:57 AM | This sectioin (DMG, p204) states: quote:Suitable mounts: A mount should have the following characteristics: - Able and willing to carry its rider - At least one size categorie larger than the rider - The mount`s CR should be no more than 3 less than the rider`s character level. No word about intelligence, nervous systems or even anything close. I`m going to check this "consensus" now but when I think back to arguments like Tharkos`ones I can imagine on what this consensus is based on. As you so nicely quoted Caterane a mount must be "willing" ... but a mindless undead has no will of its own, so it cant be willing. Thus it doesnt qualify as a "mount". It isnt unwilling either ... its none of the two because its just an automaton. If they had written "must not be unwilling" it would have been different, but this way it requires some form of cooperation. This doesnt mean that you cant sit on an undead "mountlike creature" ... it just means the ride skill doesnt apply when it would be used to direct the mounts actions. Whats the big deal ? Thats all I was ever arguing about in case you didnt notice. You dont ride it ... you command it but since speaking is ALWAYS a free action for command undead (contrary to the rules (*)) you wont have a problem (unless hit by Silence). (*) pg 144 PHB is written in the usual "DM decides if possible" way for the "speaking free action" and it doesnt give any guidelines for making speaking a movement / standard action, but it is mentioned that in some cases that will happen. DM decision. For my part I would say that casting a spell would pretty much use up the speaking slot for a round so commanding undead would need more than a free action. But thats just me .... |
| Tharkos01-23-04, 04:17 AM | Horse, (Light, Heavy, Warhorse) = CR 1 Using the rules stated above as a guideline you could only use a horse as a mount once you are level 4 ... |
| Tharkos01-23-04, 04:21 AM | Originally posted by MotherBast In an arena, Darkness is not as good, as you foe can still see you, and a 20% miss chance will only help you 1 in 5 times. It is still enough to negate any sneak attacks (including an assassins death attack) because you need to "be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot". Against certain opponents this might be a good defense .... |
| Tharkos01-23-04, 04:39 AM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket Can you cast spells while benefiting from full cover of a tower shield? As long as you have one hand free to use in casting any spells with somatic component you can cast spells. If a spell doesnt need a somatic component (either naturally or by applying the still spell feat) an arcane caster could even cast these spells while wearing a Half-Plate and using a Tower Shield without any ASF. An arcane caster will have the usual 50% ASF though even if he has one hand free if he is using a tower shield. Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket If someone doesn't have tower shield proficiency and attempts to cast spells while holding it for defense, is there any spell failure associated with it? "Holding it for defense" means using it and thus there is the arcane spell failure of 50%. Not having the shield proficiency will just modify your attack rolls and skill checks that involve moving, but not change the ASF. This is the same for all shields. |
| Moherajikuyx01-23-04, 05:10 AM | Hi babies! :D The point raisen is about ride here. Let's see. A note: sshuit, the simpler tricks require an animal int (min. 1), so no undead handling, and undead lose them post-death. From SRD, ride Fight with Warhorse: If you direct your war-trained mount to attack in battle, you can still make your own attack or attacks normally. This usage is a free action. Control Mount in Battle: As a move action, you can attempt to control a light horse, pony, heavy horse, or other mount not trained for combat riding while in battle. If you fail the Ride check, you can do nothing else in that round. You do not need to roll for warhorses or warponies. As always it could be a lot clearer, but the "war-trained" requirement seems to involve a mount who learned the "fight while mounted" tricks, and "control mount in battle" involves a mount who learns the "riding" tricks, so they're not for undead. Spur Mount, Fast Mount or Dismount, Leap, Soft Fall, Stay in Saddle, Guide with Knees, Cover don't require anything from ride, though it looks wrong to use spur (seems to be only for living mounts: undead should not take damage from fatigue-like causes). Also guide with knees looks to require the same things as above (trained for riding), though it's not written. Thus, I think that with an undead mount you have to order it to attack, you can't use ride for that. But as you're not using ride to control it, you should roll a stay in saddle whenever it attacks (and maybe even moves). I'd let the rider take 10 to remain on saddle when out of enemy reach. So, the Harvy will be able to At the end, you can sit on it and make it attack and attack yourself, you just have to have a very high ride bonus to remain on it because it's not thinking about you, and it doesn't move like a horse would. It's even almost logical... (bbrrrr!) *Edit* it is my opinion that, given that one can't use the full ride skill with them, undead should be considered ill-suited for riding. Originally posted by Arstimis So..do you have to follow these rules. If so..what did the arena ever to do the - The mount`s CR should be no more than 3 less than the rider`s character level. rule?Interesting point Arstimis, but then how can a mounted fighter begin his career? I think this is only for alternative mounts. But then, undead and megaraptors sure look like alternative mounts... |
| Caterane01-23-04, 05:11 AM | consensus - a majority opinion. In this case, there were 6 people in the discussion, and 4 of them agreed... One comes up with an idea based solely on impression and personal opinion, 3 nod their heads and *dang* we have a new house rule absolutely contrary to the written rules. Surely not. Motherbast: As far as undead and mounts go, I think now that the mounted combat feats could be used with mounts, as none of the feats expressly say how the feat is exacuted. That makes it 3 vs 3. So much for the consensus. Mag: I have no problem w/ Harvester having a Cauchemar. Granted, it's incredibly scary, but who am I to talk, right? Correction: that makes 4 to 3 in my favor. LLMAdCow: I agree with allowing Undead to be used as mounts. 5 to 3 :) But let`s forget this consensus thing. Sshuit has posted something backed up by rules: Handle animal : Teaching an animal a trick / purpose Combat riding : 6 tricks, requires an intelligence of 2, so undead could not be taught to be a mount. Fighting : 3 tricks (no int requirement) Guarding : 4 tricks (2 int minimum) Heavy labor : 3 tricks (no int requirement) Hunting : 6 tricks (2 int minimum) Performance : 5 tricks (2 int minimum) Riding : 3 tricks (no int requirement) So since it seems that you would have to teach your undead mount how to be a mount at some point, it could only be taught to 1. Fight, 2. heavy labor, 3. Riding (but not combat riding so it would be like a non-warhorse) Can I teach a skeleton on how to use a greatsword? No. But does a fighter skeleton know how to use one? Yes. Same goes for undead mounts. They knew in life how to do their tricks and so they do in unlife. I agree that they lose any trick with an Int requirement but - as it is written - they know ride and to fight, and therefore I can use mounted feats. KerlanRayne: From sshuit's post it looks to me that you can't train an undead to be your mount, but I think you could train a mount and then make him undead. So you would have to subdue a mount and use Handle Animal to train it. Then you could make it into undead. How's that sound? That`s exactly what I`m saying. Animated mounts are still mounts. Another quote: I do have to say that any living creature suitable as a mount is also suitable as an undead mount. Tharkos: As you so nicely quoted Caterane a mount must be "willing" ... but a mindless undead has no will of its own, so it cant be willing. Thus it doesnt qualify as a "mount". It isnt unwilling either ... its none of the two because its just an automaton. First of all, it is NOT an automaton, or a pile of moving flesh. It is an undead creature and since we don`t know anything about undead creatures for sure (because none exist) we have to rely on the rules. Your assumption is - again - something completely based on your opinion. you command it but since speaking is ALWAYS a free action for command undead (contrary to the rules (*)) you wont have a problem For the tenth time: rebuked undead need a standard action. Animated ones not. For my part I would say that casting a spell would pretty much use up the speaking slot for a round so commanding undead would need more than a free action. Your impression, your opinion, your imagination,... we already discussed that. "DM decides if possible" way for the "speaking free action" and it doesnt give any guidelines for making speaking a movement / standard action, but it is mentioned that in some cases that will happen. Perhaps you want to make a list with what can be said and what not, then we post this 10 feet long post and refer to it before every fight. |
| Tharkos01-23-04, 05:35 AM | For the 11th time: Animated ones need a SPEAK ACTION and that is all I said ... and speaking ISNT ALWAYS A FREE ACTION. And that is what I was arguing about. So far undead commands have been handled as free actions ... always, but that doesnt mean it has to be true. Something with INT --- is an automaton, i.e. a "creature" which does as its master says and has no will of its own. "Automaton" isnt a defined creature subtype and its just a way to describe how it acts ... just on masters commands. Animated Objects, Golems and mindless Undead fall into this category. They only react according to the order they have. Perhaps you want to make a list with what can be said and what not, then we post this 10 feet long post and refer to it before every fight. Sure why not ? On the other hand we could use common sense and say that you cant command an undead in the same round you use a potion or scroll or cast a spell (and vice versa). This would leave you free to command the undead and use a full attack, but any action which also uses your mouth would prohibit it. |
| Caterane01-23-04, 05:39 AM | HA! Now I have found something: Vermin - like spiders and scorpions - don`t have any intelligence score either but they are pretty much alive and in no way automatons. And spiders can even be trained as mounts!!! |
| Moherajikuyx01-23-04, 05:41 AM | LOL there are so many flamers around here, I could do a sapper squad for my WW2 table games. I'm going to mod Bruno this way Mag: when more than 5-8 words are needed to tell him what to do, that's a mov action instead than a free action. Of course you can also cast! 1 round=1mov +1std... |
| Tharkos01-23-04, 06:18 AM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Thus, I think that with an undead mount you have to order it to attack, you can't use ride for that. But as you're not using ride to control it, you should roll a stay in saddle whenever it attacks (and maybe even moves). I'd let the rider take 10 to remain on saddle when out of enemy reach. Shouldnt this check be rolled by the moderator since "take 10" usually applies for out of combat rolls for the arena so far ... |
| Tharkos01-23-04, 06:31 AM | Vermin: "These creatures operate on instinct, driven by simple needs such as food and reproduction." Skeleton: "Skeletons are the animated bones of the dead, mindless automatons that obey the orders of their evil masters." The Harvester isnt even evil in alignment so technically he wouldnt be able to order any skeleton around. Zombie: "These mindless automatons shamble about, doing their creators bidding without fear or hesitation." These the Harvester could command ... no word about an evil master requirement. Animated Object: "Animated Objects fight only as directed by the animator." Golem: "Golems are magically created automatons of great power." Its pretty clear from these descriptions that Vermin is the exception to the INT --- rule because they have basic needs. All the others are created creatures and dont have any needs or desires and are basically slaves to their masters will. If their master is dead and their last order is invalid they will stand / sit motionless until the universe ends or they get destroyed. Vermin do have a life of their own ... |
| LLMadCow01-23-04, 07:27 AM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket Hey all, Just need a quick refresher on tower shields. It's past my bedtime and can't find what i'm looking for. I just woke up, but here is my reply.... Can you cast spells while benefiting from full cover of a tower shield? No. When using a Tower Shield for Full Cover, you give up your attacks to do so. (Although, if you have a quickened spell, this might work.) If using it for the +4 AC, you have a 50% Arcane Spell failure. The Tower Shield DOES NOT provide cover against targeted spells. A spellcaster can target a spell on the target by targetting the shield. Casting a spell on an object on a dwarf's possession, do they gain the benefit of their racial +2 to save vs spells and effects? I believe the answer is YES. If someone doesn't have tower shield proficiency and attempts to cast spells while holding it for defense, is there any spell failure associated with it? As stated above, they cannot use the Tower Shield for full defense and cast spells, other than maybe some quickened, so this is a moot point. Must admit, i'm rusty on my tower shield knowledge and it's intricacies. Tellish. (off to bed, finish rest of my fights tomorrow) I hope that my reply has reached you in time! We all hate to see broken uses of the system, and I think the rues are pretty clear in this case. Just follow up and read the entry for the tower shield in the PHB or SRD and it says it all. |
| Caterane01-23-04, 07:39 AM | Tharkos, I hope you agree that these are just descriptions and no more. The "skeleton masters have to be evil" lines make it pretty clear that it can`t be followed by the word and in no way can it be a basis for an argument to build on; at least not if the argument should be build on solid ground. In all your posts you based everything on the 'Intelligence none' entry and now that we`ve found out that vermin have the same, you have to dig deep, turn the words upside down and interprete them as you see fit. You don`t want me to begin basing my arguments on interpretations. Perhaps I should do it to show you where it will lead us. Gotta go out now. Till later. |
| Jindl01-23-04, 09:16 AM | Re: Tower Shields and Spellcasting When using a tower shield for total cover, you must give up all your attacks. Use the same definition for "attack" as the invisibility spell. So, some spells could be cast, like summons and personal buffs. Others (ones that would spoil invisibility) cannot be cast, because they are considered attacks. Using a tower shield for cover while buffing is a good strategy. -Jindl |
| MotherBast01-23-04, 09:44 AM | All my tactics are out. All tactics recived except for Snarks. I will run the Zor vs. Nev fight in a few minutes. Gona eat and shower first. That one looks as though it will be the shortest and most stright forward. I will probably run the Cur vs. Kelek rematch today as well. I have a great story in mind for this one. I like writing about Cur and I hope the personality I am developing for him suits your idea MO. This time though, I think I'm gona write it from Kelek's point of view. He hasen't had a good plot advancing story in a while, and he is a very intresting character who needs to get back into the spotlight. The Harvy vs. Skymoon fight I will do last. A fight that important I want to have a lot of time for. I wound up runing Jindl vs. Bilo 3 times due to mistakes, and this fight could be even more complacated so I want it to hav emy full attention. |
| Arstimis01-23-04, 10:08 AM | Originally posted by Caterane Can I teach a skeleton on how to use a greatsword? No. But does a fighter skeleton know how to use one? Yes. Same goes for undead mounts. They knew in life how to do their tricks and so they do in unlife. I agree that they lose any trick with an Int requirement but - as it is written - they know ride and to fight, and therefore I can use mounted feats. Interesting...so are you saying the absolutely wild untrained cauchemar you found in a cave, has somehow been trained in mounted combat? This i really dont beleive unless you can show me where The fact that a Cachemar was never trained in mounted combat kinda proves that it wouldnt know it as an undead. I guess i could be wrong..but oh well |
| SnarkHunter01-23-04, 10:44 AM | Given the controversy (heh, which I ignited) I thought it best to delay until certain that all was in order. My take? Well first of all I admit striaght away that I have a pretty easily imagined stake in the matter so any judgments I make can certainly be influenced by that. @Mo: Limiting it to a number of words seems tricky (and will likely cause a sudden apperance of '-'s to appear. I'd say one sentance would be a free action, but lets not go crazy with ;'s, :'s., and other conjoiners. @Cat: Another issue aside from the one above is that the cauchemar is essentially just an advanced nightmare. It even has elite stats. AS I recall we were only allowing base creatures as skeletol companions and despite it having an entry in the MM I still would still just call it an advanced nightmare. As for skeletol warriors and their weapon wielding way's; Attacks: A skeleton retains all the natural weapons, manufactured weapon attacks, and weapon proficiencies of the base creature, except for attacks that can’t work without flesh. So as long as the skelaton knew how to use a greatsword during life they could do so in death. Also Special Qualities: A skeleton loses most special qualities of the base creature. It retains any extraordinary special qualities that improve its melee or ranged attacks. This can be taken in a few ways. Being a suitable mount for riding would certainly improve its rider's attacks but thats about it. Given all that I don't think Nightingale is an appropriate mount. I'm really very sorry Cat. In anycase I'll send tactics this evening. Edit: To clarify, I'll send out tactics that will treat nightingale as a suitable mount for all intents and purposes. My reasons therefore are simple good sportsmanship. This late in the game it is simply terribly rude to demand such a drastic reevaluation of a characters ways and means. |
| kattattack2201-23-04, 10:57 AM | Another Zorander. The dice gods favored one of the two combatants. double 20's are nice to see when doing low-level fights. Ends fights very quickly and very decisively. Holy :censored:! I knew Lucius was screwed but I never expected for it to be that bad. Ahem, of course....no offence to the one that suffers from it. None taken. |
| MotherBast01-23-04, 11:52 AM | Speaking of Zorander, his fight with Nev is finished. Despite 2 archers, the fight was not decided by a Critical arrow. It was decided by one gladiator's lack in a certan skill, which made him easy pray for the other. It will be posted in an hour or so. |
| sshuit01-23-04, 12:00 PM | Re : Riding mounted undead. My opinion is still that you can use mounted skills with undead but they cannot be trained as combat mounts (int too low). (if anyone cares about my opinion) I think I've made it pretty clear why I feel this way. I guess it's up to Mo at this point, unless he wants to put it to a vote. sshuit |
| Caterane01-23-04, 12:06 PM | @Snark: The Cauchemar (note the special name!) is an advanced version of a nightmare in a way a heavy horse is too a light one, or a ghast is to a ghoul, or a large spider to a medium one. It has its own entry, its own stats, even its own name, and it is written that it is a special version of the nightmare. About the undead mount issue: I wrote a lot now and I think I covered the issue pretty well without using my impression but facts only, something I didn`t always get in return. There`s the fact that the PHB doesn`t say anything special about undead mounts so we have to assume that it works exactly as we handled it all the time, exactly as they handle non-animated mounts and even vermin (with no Int either). Everything else would be a house rule based on muddy ground because of the lack of information, and this is something we shouldn`t enforce, especially when considering the heavy impact it would have. But to show me good will there`s a compromise I`ll offer, even though I`m absolutely convinced that it`s not necessary. Mo wrote something about making a Ride-check every round, and taking 10 when not in combat. That`s not covered by the rules either but it may be a compromise to end this discussion once and for all. Edit: Sshuit: My opinion is still that you can use mounted skills with undead but they cannot be trained as combat mounts (int too low). I never intended to train them. I just want to ride them and have them attack sometimes. That`s all but apparently some people think it`s not possible. |
| Elgonn01-23-04, 12:07 PM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket Coralias vs Lucius It looks like you forgot to take into account that when double moving or running you fire at the half way point of your movement. Since you don't list all the movement and locations I can't say exact how much it should have changed things but for the first shot there would have been a ranged catagory penalty and possibly he couldn't have double moved and gotten a clean shot on Lucius for the death blow. Do you recall the exact movement of everyone? |
| sshuit01-23-04, 12:17 PM | Originally posted by Caterane Well that's the problem, if they aren't trained as combat mounts then they need a DC 20 check every round as a move equivalent action, and if you fail that becomes a full round action. So you HAVE TO TRAIN them BEFORE they become undead in order to make it work. Once they are undead their int is too low to train as a combat mount anymore. I never intended to train them. I just want to ride them and have them attack sometimes. That`s all but apparently some people think it`s not possible. |
| Caterane01-23-04, 12:18 PM | Artismis: Interesting...so are you saying the absolutely wild untrained cauchemar you found in a cave, has somehow been trained in mounted combat? This i really dont beleive unless you can show me where Sshuit: Well that's the problem, if they aren't trained as combat mounts then they need a DC 20 check every round as a move equivalent action, and if you fail that becomes a full round action. So you HAVE TO TRAIN them BEFORE they become undead in order to make it work. Once they are undead their int is too low to train as a combat mount anymore. The cauchemar had an intelligence of 16. Tricks are to "tell" stupid animals how to do simple things. It might take a while until a dog realizes what it has to do when he hears "FETCH" but a cauchemar instantly knows it, just as a human would ...and a human retains his combat knowledge in unlife. Edit: and the Dc20 check is to calm an emotionally roused non-combat horse in melee, something which is no problem for an undead creature. |
| Jindl01-23-04, 12:20 PM | Tactics sent to ToK for Jindl. Please let me know if there are any ?'s or concerns. Tactics recieved from MotherBast and cellardwellar. I sent a response via PM to both of you... -Jindl |
| sshuit01-23-04, 12:28 PM | Well it had an intelligence of 16, but once it becomes undead it has no intelligence at all. But didn't you kill it before you had a chance to train it as a mount? I'm more concerned with all this necromancy and evil cohorts for an allegedly "neutral" character when its pretty obvious the harvester runs neutral evil..... but is afraid of moon moon's smiting prowess :angel: Originally posted by Caterane The cauchemar had an intelligence of 16. Tricks are to "tell" stupid animals how to do simple things. It might take a while until a dog realizes what it has to do when he hears "FETCH" but a cauchemar instantly knows it, just as a human would ...and a human retains his combat knowledge in unlife. Edit: and the Dc20 check is to calm an emotionally roused non-combat horse in melee, something which is no problem for an undead creature. |
| Caterane01-23-04, 12:34 PM | @Sshuit: You just told me that if it knew it in life it does so in unlife. :confused: :confused: :confused: Didn`t Mo kill the Megaraptor too? :eek: You have to kill the beast in the monster fight. There`s no rule about subduing it. A neutral character isn`t concerned about moral things and as the seraph of death it wouldn`t fit the Harvester to be haunted by guilt for raising undead. And Snark would smite the nightmare anyway. |
| Arstimis01-23-04, 01:10 PM | Originally posted by Caterane @Sshuit: You just told me that if it knew it in life it does so in unlife. :confused: :confused: :confused: Didn`t Mo kill the Megaraptor too? :eek: You have to kill the beast in the monster fight. IF it knew it...but the cauchemar didn't know anything about mounted combat in life, so couldn't know about it in unlife He killed and it was raised...if I'm correct he had handle animal totrain it. if I'm wrong, sorry |
| JonahBlack01-23-04, 01:28 PM | @Moh: I emailed you the tactics for Grimlock v. Grym. |
| MotherBast01-23-04, 01:32 PM | About the undead mount, Harvy could still give the mount a command as a free action to preform anything that a ride skill check would normaly have it do, so the end result is just the same, only the method changes.... the argument has no actually baring on the outcome of what the mount/undead can preform. The real issue was aobut the "free action" part of cammanding a mount. Another mod suggested it would not be a free action to command it if harvy was using his mouth for anything else in the round. The theory was that havey would be useing his "speeking" free action for spellcasting, or drinking a potiong. This is incorrect. Speeking as part of spellscasting falls under the "not an action" headding, not free action, as it is inherently part of preforming another action, in this case spellcasting. The same is true for drinking a potion. The actual actions of your mouth during the drinking of the potion are part of the total action of drinking it, so again fall under the "not an action" catagory. As far as how complactated the commands to an undead must be, some people are carrying it to far. The book gives an example of commanding an undead to defend a room. Obviously, despite the undead's completle lack of intelegence, it is able to define the paramaters of "the room." You can also command an undead to move no more than, say, 30' from a doorway, and despite the undead's lack of intellegence it knows precisely how far 30' is, to the inch..... undead are also able to understand the language of there creator when given commands, despite an inability to understand that language normaly..... so you see, its not about what the undead knows, its about what the magic of the spell causes the undead to do.... If you command an undead to "attack that man." and there is only one man in sight, the undead immedatly trys to attack him as best it can. If you command an undead to "fly up 60'" It will rise exactly 60' into the air as best it can. Not because the undead knows exactly how high 60' is, but because the magic of the spell used to create it forces it to obay the commands of its master exactly, so even though a normal undead would have no idea how high 60' is, or even what the word "up" means, one controled by this magic will carry out that order exactly. So long descriptions of what the undead should do are not necessary. I can't really think of any circumstance where you couldn't command your undead as a free action. Well, there is one.... you may only take free actions during your turn, so you could not command your undead to do anything on your opponit's turn. anyway, the Zorander/Nevrlokagyft fight is posted. |
| Tharkos01-23-04, 01:40 PM | Maybe all those "monster fights" have been run with the wrong concept ? IMO the gladiator needs to "kill" the monster with nonlethal damage (i.e. subdue it) if he wants to train it with Handle Animal. In any case the monster wants to get away from the gladiator instead of killing him (since it knows the stats of the gladiator and it knows it is facing a dangerous opponent). The trick for "taming" (or killing in case of a future undead) a monster is to actually catch an opponent who doesnt want to be caught. In the case of the Cauchemar I cant think how the Harvester could have caught up with it in full flight in the first place. Nightmares in any case dont have any knowledge of any "riding tricks" learned by the handle animal skill (too intelligent and its not in the text) and thus they dont have them as an undead either. A Nightmare has a bunch of "normal skills", but what does a Sekeltal Nightmare have ? Skeletons dont even have an entry for skills in the MM !!!! Thus it is pretty clear it would even loose that knowledge of any "riding tricks" it had in life. They just retain any special skills, but not something they need to remember (no brain = no memory, but thats not proven since its not written in any rulebook). So in the end the Harvester can use his Nightmare "to sit upon" but not to ride (with a few riding checks to not fall down). How much time commanding it takes is another question (which hasnt been decided or I have overlooked that poll Caterane). |
| Jindl01-23-04, 01:46 PM | Originally posted by MotherBast Well, there is one.... you may only take free actions during your turn, so you could not command your undead to do anything on your opponit's turn. And this brings us to the major point of contention (as far as I see it). Can the Mounted Combat feat be used to negate an attack when the mount is a mindless undead creature? The feat is used during other people's actions, when as you just said, you cannot be speaking. So how do you tell your mount to dodge? It doesn't respond to reign signals, or knee commands, or any non-verbal instructions. Since you cannot speak during your opponents turn, there is no way you could use the Mounted Combat feat. And since you cannot use that feat, you also cannot use Ride-by Attack or Spirited Charge, as they both have Mounted Combat as a pre-req. This is what is meant when we say "not suitable as a mount". There's no way to use the mounted combat feats when riding this creature. Also, Cat makes several references to vermin, and I think it is a good analogy. But re-read what the DMG says. It says that vermin are not suitable mounts, though the DM could make an exception, such as a school where giant spiders are trained as mounts. So it says the DM would have to make an exception to allow vermin to be suitable as mounts because they are non-intelligent. The same would be true for skeletons and zombies, only we have no DM, so there can't be an exception. If I am mis-reading the DMG, I apologize, but I think I'm reading it correctly. -Jindl @MotherBast + cellardweller - Responses to my questions have been received. Thanks! I'll run the fight tomorrow. @ToK - please make sure you got both of my PM's. I'm also posting a little something on the RolePlay thread to try and explain why Iron and Jindl are fighting... (@Mo - I hope you approve...) |
| Tellish_of_Ket01-23-04, 01:47 PM | IMO the gladiator needs to "kill" the monster with nonlethal damage (i.e. subdue it) if he wants to train it with Handle Animal. In any case the monster wants to get away from the gladiator instead of killing him (since it knows the stats of the gladiator and it knows it is facing a dangerous opponent). That's how i ran Iron's fight vs the raptor. Had him do subdual dmg only. @MB: what about listen checks though? Was he under the influence of a silence? With +11 listen the odds are pretty good i can get to hear within 15' if nothing else. Tellish |
| cellardweller01-23-04, 01:54 PM | Originally posted by MotherBast <snip>post that sums up my position nicely</snip> Well, there is one.... you may only take free actions during your turn, so you could not command your undead to do anything on your opponit's turn. Which does prevent the use of MC to negate attacks on the mount, but thats it. |
| cellardweller01-23-04, 01:58 PM | Originally posted by Jindl And since you cannot use that feat, you also cannot use Ride-by Attack or Spirited Charge, as they both have Mounted Combat as a pre-req. Technically he only can't use the feat on his own turn. He could use the feat to negate an attack made by himself and therefore qualify for the subsequent feats. Basically the undead is a treated as a mount when it is your turn only. |
| Ethendril01-23-04, 02:23 PM | What are the boards coming to in the last DAY!!!?? Voliana vs. Babar is posted. This was quite difficult for my second fight, with invisibility, total cover from tower shield, and Slight of Hand! I tried to follow tactics from both combatants as best as I could Feedback (or criticism, if necessary) appreciated. -Ethendril |
| MotherBast01-23-04, 02:30 PM | Well, for most of the fight listen was impossible. Twords the end, you needed to beat his check by 20 to pinpoint, and even pinpointing someone dosne't allow you to see them, so you are still unaware, and flat footed, if they attack you. I didn't bother to do any listen checks, because you always knew exactly where he was, you just never could see him. If he had ever moved, and you were trying to find him, then I would have rolled some listen checks. As it was, it seemed pointless. [edit] comments about the Barbar fight. first off, the horse had scent, so it should have been able to smell the invisable rogue. It would have pin-pointed her at 5'. Second, that tactic..... "hide behind my shield and let my horse kill her." I hate to see stuff like that used...... of course, its valid, it works.... but you might as well have stayed home and just said. "I'm not actually going to show up for the fight, I'm just going to let my warhorse go and kill her for me." LoL ;) |
| barrel_master01-23-04, 02:45 PM | Regarding the undead mount... again.... perhaps we can agree that the nightmare is unsuited to be a mount and that it would take a -5 on ride checks. As for the fights themselves, props to all the modds you're doing excellent work. |
| Caterane01-23-04, 02:59 PM | -5 on ride checks would be ok for me. @Jindl: Can you post the link to the Iku Rex fighting sorcerer thread? One of my friends wants to play one and I told him of your creation. |
| Jindl01-23-04, 03:08 PM | I bumped the Iku Rex thread, so its now on the first page... -Jindl |
| SnarkHunter01-23-04, 03:28 PM | @Cat: Ah contraire my good Cat, I think your analogy is not quite accurate and I refer you to the largest difference between the two in the SRD. In that fine text the entry for nightmare goes over the statistics and then right into the Nightwing. But under animals you will find an entry for both the light and the heavy warhorse. For further evidence the 3.5 MM also contains the following entrance. Advancement The monster entry usually describes only the most commonly encountered version of a creature (though some entries for advanced monsters can be found). The advancement line shows how tough a creature can get, in terms of extra Hit Dice. (This is not an absolute limit, but exceptions are extremely rare.) Often, intelligent creatures advance by gaining a level in a character class instead of just gaining a new Hit Die. It seems rather self-evident to me that the developers were bestowing some small kindnesses upon the masses by giving multiple examples of advanced creatures in interesting fashion (I’m fond of the celestial charger myself) and gave them unique names only so as not to be repetitious. But, as I've said, this will have no impact on the upcoming Moon-moon/Harvester fight. @Mother: One error with the Zorander fight. Hiding after making a ranged attack is a move equive not a free action. I don't know if this would have affected the battle over mkuch as some of Zoranders missed attacks would have hit without rapidshot penalties and Nevr really was in trouble without a spot skill. But something to keep in mind for future fights. To really pull that off I think you need many shot. Edit: tactics sent for Moon and hanz. Tactics recieved for Hurtz (oh don't send them to the Comcast address anymore, I think they confused my Mom :)), Oetzi, and Sintius and Rito. However since one contestant decided to refer to me by a simply unacceptable appelation (sigh Snackhunter if you simply must know) I am afraid they have forfeted the fight. ;) |
| Magagumo01-23-04, 03:57 PM | Bloody Manyshot, it doesn't allow that, Snark. You see, Manyshot is a standard action, and Shot on the Run allows you take an attack after moving, then mvoe again. Two close, but separate beasts. I can start sniping once I got Shot on the Run (at 9th level) but I will refrain from putting this in my tactics from now on. Sorry bout that. @ Cat- I see good arguments on both sides, and I can understand the frustration you're feeling ( I remember the hectic days of just animating skeletons..) I think the -5 penalty is probably the best idea, as this has been explicated in non-Core (but D & D) products, inculdign Dragon, to be the catch-all for crazy mounts. In fact, this could even be used to allow a goblin to ride an Ogre, taking the -5 penalty. With the -5 penalty (a steep on in terms of the game), this would account for Harvester's increased need of effort to balance on the Cauchemar's back with hands free (Gudie with knees) as well as direct it away from harm (as per Mounted Combat). In light of all these discussions, i think we should try the -5 penalty, and adjudicate it at a later week (after trying the penalty this week, let's say). That way, Harvester can still fight, but we take into account the burgeoning debate on undead mounts. Can we all agree on this measure? Side Note: @Cat, I'm afraid Snark's right about the Cauchemar being and advanced elite Nightmare, as I'm the one who told him so. Nessian War Hounds, Greater Abyssal Basililisks, Celestial Chargers, and Elder Black Puddings are a few other examples of non-classed elite monsters. Nevertheless, I say since it is in the MM, we can use it. I just think one needs to avoid allowing players to assign elite stats, as this allows for strange mixtures. Flame on, nightmare rider :) |
| SnarkHunter01-23-04, 04:02 PM | @Mag Where did you get shot on the run? I never mentioned anything about shot on the run. Not a bit. What I was saying was that since many shot allowed you to fire multiple arrows (standard action) you could still hide afterwards with the snipe action (move equive). You and that shot on the run feat. Next thing you know he'll start on about hydras again. |
| Jindl01-23-04, 04:07 PM | I think the -5 penalty to ride checks is appropriate for the skeleton. But, as has already been discussed, the Harvester cannot use the mounted combat feat when it isn't his turn, because the skeleton requires him to verbally command it, and he cannot speak on his opponent's turn. So, he cannot use the mounted combat feat when he cannot speak, which would be during his opponent's turn, when he is casting a full-round spell, or when within a silence spell. So, to summarize: 1. All ride checks are made at a -5 penalty. 2. The mounted combat feats cannot be used when the Harvester is unable to speak commands (such as during his opponent's turn, when in a silence spell, or when the Harvester is busy casting a full-round spell). 3. Mounted combat feats can be used as normal during the Harvester's turn, provided he can take the free action to speak. This should make ride-by-attack and spirited charge available, but prevent the use of mounted combat to dodge attacks. Is this correct? -Jindl |
| MotherBast01-23-04, 04:09 PM | Ah, a move action to rehide.... now that was a mistake. I didn't know that was the case. I missed it when I ran Kelek's fight last week. I wonder if I ever had kelek rehide as a free action? Ah well. I remember allowing him to step to the edge of the mist, fire and then hide now..... darn. That means I messed up two fights..... my apoligies to both MO for the Kelek fight, and to Tellish, for the last one. As MO won the last fight though, I don't think he will mind, and I doubt that Zorander only fireing one arrow a round would have made much difference in this one, since as you said he often missed by only one or 2. It would have been a much longer fight though, and who knows. Speeking of Kelek, his fight against Cur is done. This one was much much shorter. Only 5 rounds as a matter of fact. I will go post it now. |
| Moherajikuyx01-23-04, 04:38 PM | Yeah tower shield + warhorse was cheesey. Darn I thought I clearly wrote to do another thing, I should have been clearer. *Edit* ops, actually Eth got it right, but Babar wasn't able to do that! My bad. Great opening sshuit. Really effective. Makes wonder what happens with another dice of SA... |
| sshuit01-23-04, 05:13 PM | @mo : Good fight!... Too bad about that darn tower shield. Maybe I should have tried to sleight of hand that away from you instead ! ;) Voliana/sshuit |
| MotherBast01-23-04, 05:27 PM | Kelek vs. Cur is up. I wanted to do more with this story, but the fight only lasted 5 rounds, so I didn't have much to work with. |
| Magagumo01-23-04, 05:56 PM | *Rolls eyes at Snark* Best monster Wizards ever converted from mythology. Just you wait, soon I will run a campaign where the world is run by Hydras.. hydra parliaments will be deadlocked as 12-headed hydras fillibuster into eternity (one or two talk, two eat, two drink, the rest sleep :))... Hydras spellcasters will ruin the party with 12 spelsl per round!! Mwa hahahaha! *Coughs* Anyways... Ah well, fast healing 20+ only made like them more.. if only Bruno had shapechange... :) |
| Tellish_of_Ket01-24-04, 04:29 AM | DONE! 96 dmg!!! 76 dmg!!! One of the gladiators i think dealt out nearly 400 pts of damage before finally achieving victory. I'll post it tomorrow after work. Very bloody fight. Tellish |
| Ion Matzumura01-24-04, 04:39 AM | Hi! I`m new to the Tournament. Hope I dont have mistakes in my sheat. Chris |
| Caterane01-24-04, 07:46 AM | 400 damage? What did he attack? The pillars? The crowd? |
| Tharkos01-24-04, 08:31 AM | Too bad for Cat and his Cauchemar to be in the spotlight for this week, but I think I have found another error with that: Horseshoes of Speed: "These iron shoes come in sets of four like ordinary horseshoes. When affixed to an animal's hooves they increase the animal's base land speed by 30 feet; this counts as an enhancement bonus. As with other effects that increase speed, jumping distances increase proportionally. All four shoes must be worn by the same animal to be effective." This makes it pretty clear that Horseshoes of Speed dont work for the Cauchemar since it never was an animal, neither in life nor in unlife. It makes it equally clear that this item is useable only by animals with 4 hooves as well, so the Megaraptor is equally screwed since it doesnt have hooves and only 2 at that. Saying that either of them could use them would be a new item and thus a houserule. |
| Tharkos01-24-04, 08:35 AM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket DONE! 96 dmg!!! 76 dmg!!! One of the gladiators i think dealt out nearly 400 pts of damage before finally achieving victory. I'll post it tomorrow after work. Very bloody fight. Since the gladiators have 70 and 63 hit points themselves these hits cant be on a gladiator or there was a VERY VERY VERY close recovery from death. Well maybe the 76er hit could work ... with the help of a little AID or something like that. |
| Caterane01-24-04, 08:38 AM | Tharkos, why don`t you search yourself a girl friend or something? :D We already had that a few days ago. |
| Tharkos01-24-04, 09:47 AM | Originally posted by Caterane Tharkos, why don`t you search yourself a girl friend or something? :D We already had that a few days ago. Yeah well YOU are the one who proclaims he is just using the rules. You always assume too much .... any discussion on this thread doesnt result in any change unless there is a vote. The item description is pretty clear on what it can do and what not but you still have that thing listed for the Cauchemar. So it isnt me who has an "illegal" character. |
| Caterane01-24-04, 09:54 AM | You know what, Tharkos? You`re right. The horseshoes are for the animal type "horse" only and I`ll remove them instantly if we decide that it isn`t appropriate. A few days ago though a discussion about Mo`s megaraptor wearing them came up and none complied about him using them. And since I think that a horse-equivilent creature like a nightmare (which looks EXACTLY like a horse) is closer to using them as a megaraptor I kept them on on Nightingale. Well, I would like to keep them of course but since it`s contrary to the rules and needs the approval of the others I won`t cry if we decide that I have to remove them. Nightingale flies anyway. |
| sshuit01-24-04, 10:18 AM | Re : Horseshoes of speed. I think the cauchemare using them is a tiny bit bending the rules, but as a DM I would allow it. The megaraptor using them?... that's like bending the rules over and having your way with them in a prison shower. just my opinion. :D |
| Tharkos01-24-04, 10:26 AM | The discussion a few days ago was about the Megaraptor and ended more or less in favor of allowing it, but apparently no one made an effort to check the item description. I did that and found the discrepancy with that decision so I mentioned it again to make people think about it again. /FLAME ON Caterane ... I dont like your bullying way of repeatedly saying "shut up Tharkos we have already decided that and it cant be changed ever" while proclaiming yourself that your "impressions" are solely based on the rules while actually not being based on them. One "unfriendly" post: Caterane on Undead = mounts (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&perpage=30&postid=2397228#post2397228) which we have decided pretty much that they arent mounts because they arent exactly "willing" to be a mount. At the least we have decided to put some penalties on "riding" such "mounts" and that is not the same as your "nothing wrong with undead as mounts" version. Its so really nice of you to enlighten all of us others that all our arguments arent based upon the rules, but that yours are .... nice and arrogant. And another "unfriendly" post: Caterane on my imagination (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&perpage=30&postid=2368100#post2368100) which might be true because I didnt make an effort to check the rules all that much, but the current flow of discussion is supporting my point which is that undead creatures make poorer mounts than live ones and should be treated like such. The point is that you cant say "shut up because you are wrong and I am right" in any discussion. Thats very impolite and I would very much like for this to end. You cant just ignore the bad part of the rules and call that playing by the rules. The bad part about Skeletons is that they have to be commanded verbally (which we havent yet talked about either on how long it takes exactly) and the fact that it is just a set of stats, movement and attacks, but no skills and brains whatsoever. /FLAME OFF |
| sshuit01-24-04, 11:14 AM | Posting Targ vs. Jagath now. I'm sure I'll get lots of criticism for this one. Have I mentioned how sick I am of invisibility? sshuit |
| JonahBlack01-24-04, 11:24 AM | I'm gonna way in on the Horseshoe's of Speed issue. I don't think that the Nightmare can use them. The rule's are pretty clear that the shoes are for use by animals, which the cauchemar is not, nor ever was. In D&D, animal is one of those words that mean something very specific (like, large, or good). While in reality, a spider is an animal (part of the animal kingdom), it is not an animal as far as D&D is concerned; it's a vermin I'm also against the megaraptor using the horseshoes, though my reasoning has a little less basis in the rules. Firstly, it specifically uses the word 'hooves'. I originally thought that hoof could be, in a way, synonymous with 'foot', but according to Merriam-Webster: 1 : a curved covering of horn that protects the front of or encloses the ends of the digits of an ungulate mammal and that corresponds to a nail or claw 2 : a hoofed foot especially of a horse It seems that hoof means something specific as well, and the megaraptor does not have Hooves. If Iron did not have Craft Wonderous Items, then I would be absolutely against the Megaraptor using the Horseshoes, as it would constitute a custom item by definition. even with CWI, I think that it is contrary to the spirit of the item, and is furthermore customized to the point of being a new item all together. 'Sides, it's kinda cheesy. That's my 2 cp. |
| LLMadCow01-24-04, 11:43 AM | STOP FLAMING! This is a discussion thread where we can have intelligent conversations about the dynamics of a Non-Perfect RPG rules system and further support the 3.5 Core Arena Fighters. I come here to have intelligent conversation and debate the merits of various builds, the understanding of the rules, and many other aspects of the Dungeons & Dragons books. We have had a great deal of insight and understanding. We do not always see eye to eye, but that does not mean that we have to take things personally. Come on guys (and girls), grow up a little. Let's try not directing the posts as personal attacks and let's also try to not receive them as such. I love the debates we have here and always look forward to them. Sadly, the debates we have are the result of WotC being unwilling to publish the 960 page PHB that covers all of the intracasies of the world, as well as the accompanying 960 page DMG and MM. The books would weigh a ton, cost roughly $75 each and cover everything. Maybe we need PHB Vol 1 - 3? Would that work? It would give WotC a chance to explain the logic behind how they came to what decisions. There are times when reading the materials feels like a math problem. Remember in school when the teacher said "Show all of your steps" and you always wanted to know why? Well, with the rulebooks, we have small glimpses into the formula they used, but we never see all the steps. So, we have to guess. And debate. Some recent thoughts? Horseshoes of Speed - Any creature can get a variant on these, but they might cost a little extra. Or maybe cost the same! We allow wands that are not in the DMG, why not allow footwear that is not covered? Hoofed foot of a horse? Foot, I say, FOOT! Go get your custom made Megaraptor-Footwear-of-Speed and be done with it! Undead Mounts - Anyone can sit on the back of a Zombie. The Mounted Feats can only be used if you can get the Zombie to perform in some manner similar to what a living mount would do. So, if I can get my Zombie Horse to charge, then I can perform a mounted attack. It is as simple as that. Sometimes we do have to apply logic to situations, and where we disagree, we vote. Voting - If the arguements are going to get so fierce, call for a vote. Extend the voting period if necessary for a good count. If you really care about the outcome and most people are not voting, E-MAIL THEM and tell them how important it is that they vote! If you REALLY care, e-mail everyone who would side with you and get them to vite. Petition people. Sway the vote! Show you really care and do what it takes to make changes! Not once has anyone sent me an e-mail asking me to vote with them on some topic. My thoughts can b swayed on some matters... I am sure that other issues will come up, and I try to chime in with my thoughts and opinions when I think they will be helpful. "Can't we just all get along?" |
| Caterane01-24-04, 12:59 PM | @Tharkos: I never said shut up nor even meant it. That`s your impression only *lol*. Ok, just kidding. Hey Tharkos come on, I didn`t offend you nor do I think I wrote something terribly unfriendly. Granted, I wrote some posts with a pinch of sarcasm but that was meant in a more amusing way rather than offending and I never even thought about flaming. Also, I don`t know what in my last post roused such emotions, especially since I said that you`re right with the horseshoes. In any case, I apologize if I have offended you. Do you know what would be too funny? You`re from Berlin, as am I, and perhaps we even know each other or played in the same group (I had quite a few). If there`s still something bothering you, please PM or email me to keep this board clean of flaming. Now on to the discussion again. The undead mount issue has been settled and Arena Rules Lawyer Jindl even wrote a summary. I can use the Mounted combat feat during my round only and take a -5 penalty to ride checks. Note that this is - in my humble opinion - not as it should work and it penalizes me from next week on, but that is a compromise I am willing to accept; as should you - the one who stands on the complete opposite of our discussion. @Sshuit: The introduction was so damned cool. A great idea for a story. Since Jagath still roams the Faculty gardens unchecked there might even be a sequel. I like the way the arena has developed, and did you notice that no one dies a horrible death anymore before the battle begins? Tststs |
| Jindl01-24-04, 01:05 PM | Originally posted by Caterane I like the way the arena has developed, and did you notice that no one dies a horrible death anymore before the battle begins? Tststs I can explain why, but I need 5 more credits first... The ghost is coming... -Jindl PS: BOO !!! |
| barrel_master01-24-04, 01:13 PM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket DONE! 96 dmg!!! 76 dmg!!! One of the gladiators i think dealt out nearly 400 pts of damage before finally achieving victory. I'll post it tomorrow after work. Very bloody fight. Tellish I was wondering how this was possible when I realized what my tactics were... it seems as if spike won then.... |
| Tellish_of_Ket01-24-04, 02:50 PM | Actually the 96 was against a bison. :) and the 76 got wiped away, because i originally had one gladiator suffer -2 to hit for being enlarged. That's what i get for running them at 4am. After recalculating the "to-hits" the fight ended 5 rounds sooner. So one gladiator didn't get the 'grand finale' crit of 76 pts. I was exaggerating with the 400 pts of dmg of course. But it almost seems like that. Hit heal Hit heal hit heal hit heal. Arrrgh. Posting fight now. Tellish |
| sshuit01-24-04, 07:13 PM | Ilene vs Herrix is also done, just needs a story and to be typed up! Very amusing fight, although a bit one sided. sshuit *edit* Ilene vs Herrix is up! |
| Magagumo01-24-04, 08:53 PM | One error in Spike vs. Peter fight (which made no difference, since it ended on the last round of the fight) but Divine Favor is not minutes per caster level, but just 1 minute. Thus, it ended on turn 13. No big, just wanted to point that out. Fight will be run tomorrow :) |
| Jindl01-24-04, 09:01 PM | @sshuit - :rofl: horse psychology... ha! BTW: Handle Animal can be used untrained for certain tasks, such as getting an animal to perform a trick it already knows (in which case the skill check is resolved as a Charisma check). See the skill description for more details... -Jindl |
| Market_Share01-25-04, 12:51 AM | @SShuit: Man, that was hillarious. It inspired me to add some comic relief in my fight. Harvy the Head-Banger vs Lanesse the School-Girl is done. No link. Just wanted to mention here, since i didn't mention it there, and it was mentioned to me earlier, though i already knew it and needed no mentioning (confused yet?) that you can't CdG a stunned opponent. Not that it mattered. SPIKE |
| Tellish_of_Ket01-25-04, 03:05 AM | Originally posted by Ion Matzumura Hi! I`m new to the Tournament. Hope I dont have mistakes in my sheat. Chris I don't see any at a glance. Very nice character btw. Same with Aiki Auk. Finally another Kobold in the arena, and a VERY nice looking build. Great story and rich detail. I'm impressed. @Spike: very funny. Tellish |
| Caterane01-25-04, 05:00 AM | :rofl: :rofl: :bounce: :ayyyy!: :ayyyy!: :thumbsup: LOOOOLOLOLOL Spike you`re too cool |
| ^Rayne^01-25-04, 06:04 AM | Tellish_of_Ket Thanks again for the suggestions to help out my little kobold. I did some more work on tying up some loose ends and he's ready now. I just have to find a challenger now! ;) By the way the boards are supposed to be down from Monday this week to Wednesday morning (1/26 - 1/28) will that interfere with matchups and schedules for this week? Do I have to initiate challenges to get my first battle or is it done by some other authority around here. I'm not really familiar with all of the formalities just yet. Rayne |
| Caterane01-25-04, 07:37 AM | @Tharkos: I was wondering from the first time I modded Laness why you don`t buy a Towershield!? Both Ilene fights might`ve had another outcome. Just wanted to mention here, since i didn't mention it there, and it was mentioned to me earlier, though i already knew it and needed no mentioning (confused yet?) that you can't CdG a stunned opponent. See, Jindl? :D :D :D |
| Moherajikuyx01-25-04, 08:24 AM | From the SRD, magic items basics: Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they adjust themselves magically to the wearer. There may be rare exceptions, especially with racial specific items. As already told, the magic items adapt to the wearer, and the only requirement to wear one is to have the correct slot. Else, a lizardman could not wear boots. I don't think that the description of the horseshoes is enough to provide basis for a "racial specific" item, in such cases it is specifically written (like boots of elvenkind, that can be made by elves only). The description says "animal", but I think it should be clearer if they were to be "animal-specific". Again, see the elvenkind thing. I don't remember about other racial requirements now. |
| MotherBast01-25-04, 09:36 AM | Hey CAT, go check your e-mail. You have a response to your tactics updates you need to read. |
| Caterane01-25-04, 09:51 AM | @all: There is a misprint in the MM. The light load of a Cauchemar is listed as 612 pounds but that is wrong because they forgot to multiply it with the Huge size of the cauchemar (which is x6). So the real light load should be around 3000 lb. Could someone please verify this because Motherbast won`t run the fight until this is clarified. |
| MotherBast01-25-04, 10:19 AM | A few notes on flying creatures and carrying Capacity. Dragonne: Size/ huge. Strength/ 27. 4 legs. Light load = 348 in MM, by the PHB calculated method it would be 348 x6 = 2088 Giant Eagle: Size/ large. Strength/ 18. 2 legs. Light load = 300 in MM. By PHB calculated method it would be 100 x2 = only 200 lbs. Griffon: Size/ large. Strength/ 18. 4 legs. Light load = 300. By PHB method would be 100 x3 = 300. Hippogriff: Size/ large. Strength/ 18. 4 legs. Light load = 300. By PHB method 100 x3 = 300. Nightmare: Size/ large. Strength/ 18. 4 legs. Light load = 300. By PHB method 100 x3 = 300. Cauchamare: Size/ huge. Strength/ 31. 4 legs. Light load = 612. By PHB method 612 x 6 = 3672. Giant Owl: Size/ large. Strength/ 18. 2 legs. Light load = 300. By PHB method 100 x2 = 200. Pegasus: Size/ large. Strength/ 18. 4 legs. Light load = 300. By PHB method 100 x3 = 300. Spider Eater: Size/ large. Strength/ 21. 4 legs. Light load = 306. By PHB method 153 x3 = 459. Looking at this, the MM lists the Giant Eagle and Giant Owl as carrying 100 lbs more than they should be able to. The Cauchamare, Spider Eater, and Draggone are all listed as carrying less. The Pegasus, Nightmare, Hippogriff, and Griffon are all just right. Usually, anything about a monster prented in the MM would override any methods of calculation printed in the PHB. From this list, it appears to me that any large flying creature has a light load of 300 lbs, reguardless of strength, as evidenced by the fact that Giant Eagles and Owls can both carry 300 lbs as a light load, dispite not having a high enough strength for it. It would also seem that for being larger than "large" does not incress the carrying capasity of a flying mount. Then again, these might be misprints, but that would make 5 out of 9 of the listed flying mounts misprents. I will await a board concensus before I run this fight. |
| Caterane01-25-04, 10:25 AM | Usually, anything about a monster prented in the MM would override any methods of calculation printed in the PHB. In a recent discussion with Mo he told me that the PHB always overrides the other two books and he used this as an argument against mine. Looks like I benefit this time from this rule. It would also seem that for being larger than "large" does not incress the carrying capasity of a flying mount. According to the entry in the MM this also extends to carrying loads when groundbound which is of course wrong. There is also in no way a distinction between flying carrying capacities and grounded ones. |
| Mercy01-25-04, 10:29 AM | Originally posted by sshuit Posting Targ vs. Jagath now. I'm sure I'll get lots of criticism for this one. Have I mentioned how sick I am of invisibility? sshuit I don't have "lots of criticism" for this fight. I'm wondering where all my movement tactics went? The whole point of Targ's build is to be a ranged touch mage. At least I'll know what tactics to send if Targ ever draws you again as a moderator. "Round 1+: Take no actions," at least Targ won't waste any resources. |
| MotherBast01-25-04, 10:41 AM | The rule about the PHB overriding is actually that the PHB is concidered right in all cases of conflicting rules, unless the rule is in specific refrence to something in the other sorce. In the case of the MM, anything in specific refrence to a Monster overrides the PHB. The same would be true for Magic Items in the DMG (like CLs that are higher than the calculated method would present.) In all cases such as this, the book it is printed in overrides the PHB. Indeed, it would seem flying creatures can carry less on the ground as well. Thats why I am even questioning this. Normaly, I would just have said "The MM is correct." In this case though, it does seem as though some error might possibly have been made, or perhaps the Carrying Capasity entry is only for when the mount is flying and that was just not mentioned? That is why I want to wait for a concenses before I run this fight. |
| KerlanRayne01-25-04, 11:35 AM | I was just wondering something. I know this is the CORE arena, but what will we do when they expand the SRD? They have already added all of the ELH to it and in the next few months, they will add Unearthed Arcana and the Expanded Psionics Handbook. Will this change anything? I know part of the reason for CORE only was so everyone could have access to it through the SRD. KerlanRayne |
| MotherBast01-25-04, 12:20 PM | Another thing. Could we close the leadership poll Monday? This way the characters with Leadership will have time to create there cohorts by Pairings on Wedensday. Curently, the vote is 9 in favor of classed cohorts. None opposed. Also, of the 9, all except me who listed a method listed 25 point buy, so it seems that is the preferd method. Also, the poll for advanced cohorts is still deadlocked at 7 to 6, so I suggest not allowing advanced cohorts, since the poll is so close, and classed cohorts are going to be allowed anyway. This is a fine compromise for the cohort users in the arena. About the Cauchamare issue, I will run the fight in a few moments. I am going to allow the nightmare to carry more than the MM says, as forcing Cat to redo his tactics now for what could possibly be an error would be unfair. I do think the carrying capasity issue needs to be resolved before the next pairings however. |
| Rosella01-25-04, 12:23 PM | I believed that if i kept a distance that the horse wouldn't be difficult to control, this is the very first time that I had to give checks just for controlling the horse. furthermore, the mage armor AC doesn't add to the normal AC, as far as I can tell MA + shield + armor don't all stack. (I think sshuit got that part right, I just wanted to note it.) Composite also has nothing to do with strenght penalty, that only goes for mighty ranged weapons, where I purposely changed the mighty part because it hurt more than it helped. also, I kinda dislike the fact that over half of the shots weren't rapid fired, I would like to see the reason for that, since i specifically stated that I wanted to rapid fire as often as possible. I do think that Ilene was mistreated in her combat abilities, she could've done a lot more damage. Besides that, I doubt I was within range of a sleep spell at all. |
| SnarkHunter01-25-04, 12:28 PM | @Mother, I hope it goes well. You're a fine DM so I think it will be just fine. @ Kerlan, I for one would be in favor of getting some psionic characters, I think that would be quite exciting. @Rayne: Hmm this news about forum downtime is troubling indeed. If others are curious they can see the post here. (http://boards1.wizards.com/announcement.php?s=&forumid=400) In the past we've delayed pairings and with such an extensive down time we might delay fights for the whole week. I think I'll get on that 2nd level fight now... |
| Moherajikuyx01-25-04, 12:35 PM | :( Darn! What a downtime. Originally posted by Caterane In a recent discussion with Mo he told me that the PHB always overrides the other two books and he used this as an argument against mine. AAHHH! We were talking about skills!!! Cat!!! |
| MotherBast01-25-04, 01:42 PM | Harvy vs. Moon is done. 7 rounds. I'm not going to say who won, but the fight will set a new arena record for most damage delt in a single attack, at a wopping 137 damage on one attack, and thats assuming I remembered to add in all the bonuses. I might have missed one. The entire fight I only had to roll 7 d20 I think. anyway, as per Snark's request, I ran Night as a "legal" mount for all the mounted combat feats, and I also ignored the Carrying Capasity limit on Night for this fight only, for the reasons I stated above. This issue does need to be looked into for future fights, however. For this fight, it didn't matter. I realized Night is no longer a Cuchamare, but is now a skelaton. It has no listed Carrying Capasity, so I gave it the max.... This was just to justify the fight to myself though. |
| SnarkHunter01-25-04, 01:57 PM | Oetzi vs. Sintius is done, and I thought even for a 2nd level fight it was fun to run. I hope the participants enjoy reading (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2418939#post2418939) it. @Mother: Eee! I can't wait. (though to be honest I don't imagine it went terribly good for me.) |
| kattattack2201-25-04, 03:10 PM | I have replaced Lucius with a new level 2 character. I hope this doesn't go against any rules. I still only have one character posted as just removed Lucius's info and put the new character's info in its place. If there is any problems with this LMK. I still have all Lucius info saved in a notepad on my computer. |
| Tellish_of_Ket01-25-04, 03:22 PM | Originally posted by Rosella also, I kinda dislike the fact that over half of the shots weren't rapid fired, I would like to see the reason for that, since i specifically stated that I wanted to rapid fire as often as possible. I do think that Ilene was mistreated in her combat abilities, she could've done a lot more damage. Besides that, I doubt I was within range of a sleep spell at all. I don't often comment on other fights, but i will on this one. The disadvantage of using a non-combat trained mount in combat is that you need to make ride checks just to control it while riding in battle. It doesn't specify that you need to be in melee. Also, the reason you wouldn't be rapid-shooting is that to control your horse in battle requires a move action on its own, thus negating the ability to rapid shoot. My advice would be to spend the extra 75gp for a war-trained mount. Now on to Mercy (Targ). Your tactics may have been handled improperly, but trust me when i say, "YOU'RE NOT THE FIRST". lol I do think your critisism is a little harsh toward Sshuit who's done nothing but try to do the best he can with what he interprets. I think we all do. I've not yet seen a moderator go out of his way to screw-over a gladiator intentionally, and i doubt this was the case. I've seen (and even done myself) many boo-boo's that lead to the loss of a gladiator, and we've had our share of shouting matches too but all completely uncalled for. I'm sure if the error were kindly pointed out, that the moderator would feel bad enough for making the mistake that it wouldn't warrant that kind of slam. @Kattatack: you are completely within the rules. Tellish |
| Jindl01-25-04, 03:35 PM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket I've seen (and even done myself) many boo-boo's that lead to the loss of a gladiator, and we've had our share of shouting matches too but all completely uncalled for. Don't worry ToK. Somewhere, frozen in a block of ice, Tomah's identical twin brother waits for a sunny day to thaw... :D @MotherBast - Use the rules in the PHB for calculating carrying capacity. The MM has LOTS of mistakes like this... @Rosella - All bows, whether they are composite or not, mighty or not, long or short, etc., have a STR mod associated. For non-mighty bows, the STR mod is 0. The same -2 to hit applies anytime you use a bow of any type that you don't meet the STR mod requirement for. It is recommended that characters with STR penalties use crossbows. @Mo - On the horseshoes of speed "?", could you post a vote on it? Maybe an "a,b,c" vote where "A" is that any animal can use them, "B" is that only hooved creatures can use them, and "C" is that only hooved creatures of the animal type can use them. The reason for the poll is that we are trying to interpret the description of the item to determine what creatures can use it, and such interpretations should probably be decided by a vote. I have no issue with specially crafted "horseshoes of speed" made by Iron for the megaraptor. But the shoes he is using once belonged to his heavy warhorse, Rona. Surely we aren't suggesting that horseshoes which once fit a warhorse could be modified (for free) to fit the hind talons and front foreclaws of a megaraptor. Unfortunately, since crafting the shoes requires haste, Iron couldn't make or modify the shoes anyway. So, the only way for the mega to wear them is if they magically modify themselves, which is the reason for the poll I suggest above. -Jindl |
| Tellish_of_Ket01-25-04, 03:49 PM | Jindl vs Iron + Raptor is done. . . . . oops..i mean Jindl + Raptor vs Iron. . . . . oops...nope, Jindl vs Iron + Raptor once again. LOL @Jindl Yeah, i had Tomah in mind when i was writing about that :( I'm waiting for another sunny day. :) Some fubars will never be forgotten i guess. :( Tellish |
| Magagumo01-25-04, 04:26 PM | Kiowen vs. Dusk posted @ Jindl Tell me about those errors, let alone the misprints that crop up... You can't blame them, as there are a lot of places for errors to occur, but once must be laert. For a real screw-up, check the feats entry for Xorn.. the Elder Xorn appears to have 2 feats, as they are carrying over in the two xorn listings to its left. Very strange and a bit of a tangle to sort out. Waiting expectantly for Bruno vs. Brackin... the ncie thing is we both level no matter what ;) |
| ^Rayne^01-25-04, 04:32 PM | Aiki Auk verses Ion Matzumura? Ion Matzumura, I would like to challenge your PC in our first contest. Are you interested in taking on a 2'8" kobold? He stands ready to match his honor and fighting skill against yours. The challenge has been given, will you accept? Rayne |
| sshuit01-25-04, 04:51 PM | @mercy Sorry the fight did not turn out to your satisfaction. I realize that I made an error in handling your movement / casting. I understand if you are upset. Please feel free to request a different moderator for your future fights. sshuit Originally posted by Mercy I don't have "lots of criticism" for this fight. I'm wondering where all my movement tactics went? The whole point of Targ's build is to be a ranged touch mage. At least I'll know what tactics to send if Targ ever draws you again as a moderator. "Round 1+: Take no actions," at least Targ won't waste any resources. |
| sshuit01-25-04, 04:57 PM | Originally posted by Rosella Composite also has nothing to do with strenght penalty, that only goes for mighty ranged weapons, where I purposely changed the mighty part because it hurt more than it helped. The players handbook states pg 119 : The default composite longbow requires a Strength modifier of +0 or higher to use with proficiency. Buy a regular longbow and also a heavy warhorse and you will be 10x more effective! I think Ilene is a very good character and would enjoy moderating her fights in the future. the sleep was indeed in range and made no difference at all since your horse saved anyways. My interpretation of the rules if that any sort of combat is quite frightening to a mount, what with all the things whizzing by, loud sounds, and in the case of the arena a large cheering audience . sshuit |
| LLMadCow01-25-04, 05:05 PM | @All - Okay gang. Having some spare time on my hands, I have decided to argue the Horseshoes of Speed issue for Mo. I have gone over many different aspects of the issue and now I will bring forth evidence and arguments presented by the 3.5 Core Rulebooks. In some instances, page numbers are referenced and Behind the Curtain mentioned as well. I do not reference the SRD, since I have never really familiarized myself with it. In some instances, only pertinent portions of a passage have been quoted, and this is represented by an ellipsis (…). ~~~~~~~~~~Evidence~~~~~~~~~~ Dungeon Masters Guide, page 260. Horseshoes of Speed: These iron shoes come in sets of four like ordinary horseshoes. When affixed to an animal’s hooves, they increase the animal’s base land speed by 30’; this counts as an enhancement bonus. As with other effects that increase speed, jumping distances increase proportionally. All four shoes must be worn by the same animal for the magic to be effective. Faint Transmutation; CL 3rd; Craft Wondrous Item, haste; Price 3,000 gp; weight 12 lb. (for four). Dungeon Masters Guide, page 282, Behind The Curtain: Magic Item Gold Piece Values Other Considerations: Once you have a final cost figure, reduce that number if either of th following conditions applies: —Item Requires Skill to use: some items require a specific skill (such as Perform for a musical instrument) to get them to function. … —Item Requires Specific Class or Alignment to Use: Even more restrictive than requiring a skill, this limitation cuts the cost by 30%. Prices presented in the magic item descriptions in [the DMG] (the gold piece value following the item’s caster level) are the market value, which is generally twice what it costs the creator to make the item. … You’ll notice, however, that not all items presented here adhere to these formulas directly. The reasons are several. First and foremost, these formulas aren’t enough to truly gauge the eact differences between, say, a ring of fire resistance and boots of speed – two very dissimilar items. Each of the magic items presented here was examined and modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point. Dungeon Masters Guide, page 285, Table 7-33: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values Spell Effect: Use-activated or continuous. Base Price: Spell Level x Caster Level x 2,000 gp. (See Note 1) Example: Lantern of Revealing. Note 1 – If a continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration measured by rounds, multiply the cot by 4. If the duration of the spell is 1 minute/level, multiply the cost by 2, and if the duration is 10 minutes/level, multiply the cost by 1.5. If the spell has a 24-hour duration or greater, divide the cost in half. Player’s Handbook, page 239. Haste Transmutation Level: Bard 3, Sorc/Wiz 3 … Duration: 1 round/level … A hasted creature gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls and a +1 dodge bonus to AC and Reflex saves. … This increase counts as an enhancement bonus… Dungeon Masters Guide, page 213, Size and Magic Items … Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they adjust themselves magically to the wearer. … Only say “It doesn’t fit” if there’s a good reason. Cloaks made specifically by the selfish, self-absorbed Drow elves might fit only elves. Dwarves might make items usable only by dwarf-sized and dwarf-shaped characters to keep their items from being used against them. Such items should be the exception, however, not the rule. Core Arena Gladiators, post 1,Equipment Custom items are not allowed, unless crafted. Only scrolls and wands may be bought containing any spell. Potions, wondrous items, etc. can only be bought if they are printed in an allowed source. You may buy scrolls and wands at any caster level, given the min CL rule. You may buy scrolls and wands with metamagic feats applied. Custom rods, staves and wondrous items are not allowed by now: you may craft only listed ones. You may craft custom weapons and armors, using only the listed Special Abilities. You may not craft new items based on unique items with new abilities. ~~~~~~~~~~Arguement~~~~~~~~~~ 1st – As in Table 7-33: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values, the cost of the Horseshoes of Speed would be: Spell Effect: Use-activated or continuous. Base Price: 3 (Spell Level) x 5 (Caster Level0 x 2,000 gp = 30,000. (See Note 1 – If a continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration measured by rounds, multiply the cot by 4.) 30,000 x 4 = 120,000 gp. Example: Horseshoes of Speed. 120,000 gp for some horseshoes is OUTRAGEOUS! No one would ever own them! 2nd – Take notice of what the Horseshoes of Speed DO NOT give the wearer: …a +1 bonus on attack rolls and a +1 dodge bonus to AC and Reflex saves. Why is this? The Haste spell is required to make the item, but no bonuses are given from this aspect of the spell. 3rd – As Mo already pointed out, “Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they adjust themselves magically to the wearer.” Now, I agree that Horseshoes will NOT fit a Megaraptor, but there is an argument already within the boards to allow the use of a variant on this item. 4th – As listed in the Core Arena Gladiators thread, Custom … wondrous items are not allowed by now: you may craft only listed ones. This is how the rule stands, but this was also true of wands in the beginning. (LLMadCow, as well as many others can attest to the fact that this is true; at this time I am unwilling to search through the thousands of posts to find the exact post that mentions when the change went into effect. If anyone knows the exact post, please let me know the post # and I will edit this to include the link.) The fact that wands were changed to allow variants from the Dungeon Masters Guide listings sets a precedence for allowing the ‘common sense’ variant on the Horseshoes of Speed. ~~~~~~~~~~Conclusion~~~~~~~~~~ This is something to be put to a vote. There are some serious aspects to this and it is something to be given some thought. I would vote in favor of the ‘Megaraptor-footwear |
| Jindl01-25-04, 05:12 PM | Originally posted by LLMadCow This is something to be put to a vote. There are some serious aspects to this and it is something to be given some thought. I would vote in favor of the ‘Megaraptor-footwear I agree, it should be voted on. I would certainly allow a variant of the horseshoes to be crafted for taloned creatures (megaraptors, deinonychuses, giant eagles, etc), but again I would point out that Iron cannot craft the item since he cannot cast haste. Also, the shoes in question once belonged to and were worn by his heavy warhorse, so he would need to sell them and buy the new shoes for the Raptor, if he was allowed to buy a custom item instead of making it. FYI: Wands / Scrolls of any spell were always allowed. The vote/discussion was whether to allow metamagicked versions (which passed, obviously). That discussion has gotta be about 70 pages back or so :sigh: -Jindl |
| kattattack2201-25-04, 05:34 PM | That discussion has gotta be about 70 pages back or so :sigh: Maybe some sort some summary would be in order? Being fairly new here, I am sorry, but I am really not going to read some 140 pages of discussion that were in place before I started haunting these threads. |
| MotherBast01-25-04, 06:21 PM | The Harvy / Skymoon fight is up. Sorry it took so long, I went to one of my friend's kid's birthday party. It has only the bare minimum of story cause I wanted to get it posted quickly. Tellish, nice work on the Drakiel fight. No complants. Drakiel will of course undergo another name change now, so as to still have 1k to spend on the exact same gear. |
| Tellish_of_Ket01-25-04, 06:28 PM | I posted Delynal vs Drakiel. The only real excitement is in the intro where i return to an old Arena tradition. Otherwise, just skip to the end and see who won. Yes, it was that exciting. @MB: thx. kinda easy to add up +1 and +0. :) ooooooo for awhile it was +3...WOW! Tellish |
| Sir Cridion01-25-04, 06:47 PM | @Tellish: Sorry 'bout that :( . I'll try and make more exciting tactics next time :) |
| Hatzinger01-25-04, 06:47 PM | @Snackhunter: Hell, yeah! Sure it was fun to read! At first i thoughed my chances would be minimal with him having a wolf and his protection from arrows, but then.... a glorious victory. I hope that will teach those humans to leave the elven woods alone! (and further proof that wood-elves rule with their bows):D |
| Jindl01-25-04, 06:56 PM | @MotherBast - I think the damage totals for Skymoon's charge and the Harvester's charge are both off by a bit. I sent you a couple of PM's about it. Please let me know... -Jindl |
| LLMadCow01-25-04, 07:08 PM | Originally posted by Hatzinger @Snackhunter: :rofl: :heehee SNACKHUNTER! :heehee :rofl: |
| Jindl01-25-04, 11:10 PM | Johan vs Candy is posted... A giant eagle won the fight... -Jindl |
| MotherBast01-25-04, 11:23 PM | Your right Jindl. I checked my math, and I had forgot to tripple the smite damage for Moon. On harvy, I added his str domain after everything else, so it didn't get trippled either. Both totals are a bit higher. Moon did 85, and Harvy did 146.... now thats some damage. |
| LLMadCow01-26-04, 12:31 AM | @Caterane - How is it that Prof. Vandaeris Dre'Dandrahl has Protection from alignment as one spell when it was previously stated that this was 4 seperate spells? Shouldn't he have paid for all four versions and paid the price to copy them into his spellbook? If you look at the Gladiator Roster (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&perpage=1&postid=926274#post926274), you will even see Gage on the Inactive List with comments to this effect in regard to his character sheet. @Mo - While looking over Babar the Panza's character, I noticed that he has an unnamed Craft skill. I understand that it may not have been used thus far, but it should be declared. What, exactly, does Babar the Panza craft? Just checking out potential opponents for next week... |
| SnarkHunter01-26-04, 01:52 AM | Hurtz vs. Rito is up (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2427020#post2427020) A pretty good fight if a bit predictable from a few errors made in preperation. Hmm...sleep or neuroscience...decisions decisions... |
| Moherajikuyx01-26-04, 04:54 AM | I don't understand. What would be the question to vote upon? If magic items adapt to the wearer? This is clearly written in the rules. Are we voting if only elves should use boots of elvenkind? This is exactly the same thing... I don't understand why you say "Horseshoes will NOT fit a Megaraptor". If it's a magic item, it will fit. Plain and simple. Even if the wearer has differences in the magic item slots: else, we couldn't let a tiefling wear helms, because he has horns. Thus, for demonstration by absurd, no variant is needed, and the arena rules are safe! :P *wands*: the motivation was mainly that wands cover almost all the spells already, and the price rules are clear and set in stone. This is a really different situation from wondrous and other items. |
| Caterane01-26-04, 04:57 AM | And what with Nightingale`s horseshoes? |
| Tharkos01-26-04, 05:04 AM | Originally posted by Caterane @Tharkos: I was wondering from the first time I modded Laness why you don`t buy a Towershield!? Both Ilene fights might`ve had another outcome. Because, unlike some others who like to be "considered True Neutral" (just so they arent affected by any "Protection from XXX" spells) but use [Evil] spells nonetheless, I am not using the most efficient way of doing things. I have a certain path I chose and thats what Laness will follow. And there is also the simple fact that a 45 lbs. tower shield will make Laness encumbered .... unlike some other people I do check my encumbrance and list the weight of items. Thanks for the hint with the CDG not working for stunned opponents ... thats something I hadnt checked. |
| Moherajikuyx01-26-04, 05:39 AM | Snarky demolished me with: Actually haste wouldn’t add to your speed as it is an enhancement bonus, same as the monk speed bonus AAHHH!!! I thought the monk's bonus to be unnamed!!! :weep::weep::weep: I'm so desperate... :( Anyways, I'm happy that the mounts are finally a bit less important. Snark I think that you did a little error with no consequences at round 9, Rito should have be the first in init order as he just interrupted Hurtz?(No biggie) Cat - that's the same, it's not a racial item, and I don't think it's a type-specific item either. The "animal" word in it is just because horses are the most common mount, I believe. Tharkos - it is my opinion that you should pm the errors you see to the interested ones, or tell them here, so that they have the chance of learning from their errors (I would appreciate it for instance, if I did any). |
| Moherajikuyx01-26-04, 05:48 AM | I'm doing Grimlock-Grym now. Bonesnapper has quite a lot of bones to snap this week. I'm asking for the arena help with the rules (the tactics are already sent, no modifications from now on): can Bruno stay within his giant's legs? Or, with a better formalization: can he share squares with a bigger creature, without mounting it? Or shall I consider him mounted? I remember that he can move in the same square of an ally, but he wants to just stay there, from second round on (on the first round, he can't stay in the exact middle, for the arena first round position rule). In case he can: can Brackin share the same squares too? If he can't, any grapple attempt towards Bruno is destined to fail because of the presence of the giant. I don't find these things in the SRD. LLMadCow: Babar has craft: armorsmithing, and he already used it, thanks for telling |
| Tharkos01-26-04, 06:01 AM | In the last two weeks there have been several „tough issues“ debated in this thread and the decision making process is getting harder every time. I have thought about this for quite some time and finally come up with this: 1. The basics a. The rules in the three rulebooks dont cover every eventuality and they never will, thats a fact. Due to this there are quite a few topics which need to be "judged" and the recent hot debates have nicely shown that. b. There are two basic ways of handling such "undefined" topics on which every houserule is based somewhat: I. "if it isnt explicitly forbidden it is allowed" II. "if it isnt explicitly allowed it is forbidden" These are two ways of treating rules but IMO the one disallowing stuff is the wiser choice because it just means one "tactic, skill or item" doesnt get too powerful. In a regular campaign this preserves the balance better than having to constantly pump more power into your NPCs to keep up with the players. The same is true for handing out too many magic items to them. Some examples of "undefined" rules in the rulebooks: - Onyx The DMG lists them at a maximum value of 80 gp but we have "decided" that for the sake of Animate Dead there are such gems of a higher value since the DMG doesnt explicitly says there are none of greater value ... - Skeleton Cauchemar = Mount +/- Riding Skill ? The definitions for the riding skill dont mention any "methods" on how it is used, so people might argue that you can use the riding skill for undead which you command with your voice and the definition for "mount" is not exactly helpful as well ... Undoubtedly there are other problems of equal magnitude which we need to "judge" in the future when we find them and there are probably improvements still to be made to the Arena’s own houserules as well, which brings me to the second point ... 2. The decision making process First of I think we should split the "rules discussion" off from the main thread because it hampers the "general discussion and main messaging" in that thread because it has become quite big. Maybe there could be a separate thread for every topic and a link to them somewhere (the polls thread ?). Second, I think we need a poll for every "rules discussion" we have because there are simply too many people involved right now to get the "majority feeling" right. Having separate threads for each discussion will make it easier for the "not so active" (who cant check the forum every hour) members of the arena to follow the topic. Third, in some post (I am too lazy to check 4 pages of posts for it) Caterane mentioned something like "our rules-lawyer Jindl has summed it up like ..." and that is another thing I dont feel good about. Nothing against Jindl, but I didnt vote for him to be the rules-Judge. It might have worked well for the time when there were justr a few people participating in this, but that number is steadily increasing all the time ... After some vote the result could be summed up (for easier future reference), but without one how can even Jindl say how the majority would decide ? The whole "administation" of rules is going to become bigger and bigger every time someone joins the arena and thus some changes are inevitable to keep it working efficiently. It was like this in my Everquest time when my guild doubled ist membership from 30 to 60 and ist not going to be much different here. I hope this explains why I have reacted / will react in some way as well, but I hope this post can help showing problems which some of the "old timers" dont see ... |
| Caterane01-26-04, 06:04 AM | Cool, I think that settles the horseshoe issue :) |
| Caterane01-26-04, 06:14 AM | First of I think we should split the "rules discussion" off from the main thread because it hampers the "general discussion and main messaging" in that thread Nah. Many people don`t want to check seven different threads. Look at the poll thread: half the voters are still at vote 7 or so. But what about a seperate "Tharkos thread" :D :D :D |
| Rosella01-26-04, 07:02 AM | I changed Ilene to solve some of the problems that showed during her last fight, if anyone still have some ideas, please do tell! (I kept the warhorse light because i'm aiming for something more expensive in a very short while...) |
| MotherBast01-26-04, 07:24 AM | About Bruno. Pages 147 and 148 of the PHB state that friendly creatures may move through one another's squares, buy may not share them. It also says a creature my move through the square of a creature 3 size catagories larger than itself, but again, may not share it. The only exception the the sharing squares rule are that Fine, Diminutive, and Tiny creatures share the square of any creature they attack, and Mounted characters share all squares of the mount. Bruno is small, so unless he mounts his skellaton, he may not share its square. |
| Tellish_of_Ket01-26-04, 07:39 AM | @Snark: Yup, VERY predictable and the fight went exactly like i had envisioned it would. I probably should have stayed with the +5 expertise and +2 fighting defensive, thus requiring both combatants to roll 20's to hit. Aren't you glad i didnt? @MO: i think MB is right on this one. The size difference only allows you to go through unimpeded, not actually share their square with them. And even if they could, Brackin would still be able to grapple Bruno because if you end your move (and it would be a move that provokes from the skele) in an occupied square you immediately become prone. So Bruno is still grappled, and Brackin is considered prone. That's the worse case scenario. Tellish |
| Moherajikuyx01-26-04, 07:50 AM | Hum, isn't there a rule that says that you can share spaces with a creature 3 size increments bigger around? |
| LLMadCow01-26-04, 09:38 AM | After much debate, I have the answer we have all been looking for.... Even if horseshoes of speed are adaptable to any creature that runs on all fours, the Megaraptor does not run on all four. Originally in the Monster Manual This creature is a larger version of the deinonychus. ... From the description of the deinonychus This lean, long-legged bipedal creature... This fast carnivore is sometimes called a velociraptor... So, as is evident to anyone who has seen the Jurassic Park movies, this creature runs on two legs, not four. Sorry Mo, them's the breaks. |
| Moherajikuyx01-26-04, 09:49 AM | Ops! I was wrong |
| LLMadCow01-26-04, 09:58 AM | If the horseshoes of speed adapt from being four-legged to two-legged, then Herrix will buy a set for next round. |
| JonahBlack01-26-04, 10:05 AM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx That's no difference to the magic item. It adapts to the wearer. If this is the case, than can you take your Horseshoe's, and, in succession, use them on a Horse, a Bear (no hooves), a Gorilla (no hooves, two feet), a hawk (tiny, wings instead of arms), an Octopus (8 tentacles) and a snake (no limbs at all)? All of these are type animal, and each is a step (IMO) further from the definition of a 4 hooved animal. Furthermore, if the type doesn't matter (for the cauchemar), and the number and type of feet doesn't matter, why can't a human wear them? They're better and cheaper than Boots of Springing and Striding (+30ft, 3000gp v. +10ft, 5500gp), and all you'd have to give up is a glove slot. At the risk of appealing to 'logic', it seems clear that allowing non-4-legged, non-animals can lead to rampant abuses that are clearly contrary to the spirit and intent of this item. |
| SnarkHunter01-26-04, 10:15 AM | Adaption has its limits Mo All four shoes must be worn by the same animal for the magic to be effective. And the quadraped thing seems quite distinct in the description of the item. You could probably get it boots of speed though :). For the bruno thing I would say assume he's riding the giant, which would mean that he does in fact share every space of the skelaton so could be reached, grabbed whatever... |
| Moherajikuyx01-26-04, 10:22 AM | Snarky, I :love: you!!! :angel: Now THAT will be a nice pounce... *Edit* which means that yes, of course bipedals can't wear four leg-slot magic items... I thought that megas are mostly four legged, like bears. Darn differences from SRD to MM. |
| Ethendril01-26-04, 12:39 PM | What's the status of battles this week with the forum downtime? Will we have pairings and battles? -Ethendril |
| Jindl01-26-04, 01:22 PM | Re: Horseshoes of speed The reason I (and some others) are calling for a vote, is to determine if the magic item description is "fluff" or not. The item describes being used by an animal with hooves, much like a belt of dwarvenkind has certain effects on non-dwarves, or a druid's vestments only works for druids. This limitation on the item explains the lowered cost of the horseshoes (see LLMadCow's post). If the horseshoes can only be used by hooved animals (like horses, goats, boars, bison, etc), then not only are quadrapeds like bears unable to activate the item, but so are hooved non-animals like skeletons etc. So, since this descriptive text is under interpretation, I again call for a vote to determine if only hooved animals can use the item, as the text describes the limitation on the item. Pairings this week I assume that the boards will still have some downtime (even though it was supposed to begin already). So, I suggest that we do pairings 48 hours after the boards come back up (which should be Friday). Tactics would then be due 48 hours after pairings. And Fights should be posted 48 hours after tactics. This should get all fights posted by next Tuesday, letting us do next weeks pairings on Thursday, and the following weeks pairings back to normal Wednesday. What do you guys think? Level 11 fights - uneven @Cat, Snark, and Mo - You'll note that we have 3 level 11 contenders. Instead of each player discarding all of his lower level fighters, so as not to be hedged out by the # of pc's rule, I suggest we ignore the # of PC's and simple roll to see who fights who on this occasion. The player who doesn't get to fight, will mod the 11th level match between the other two. This way, we don't have a escalation of sitting our lower level characters out. Instead we can have all our PC's involved in matches without worrying about forcing our "best" to automatically sit out. What do you guys think? The Ghost Mo had mentioned that he didn't mind if an ECL character was brought in without the required number of credits, as long as the player would moderate to "pay back" the negative credit balance. This sounds like a decent idea, and I was hoping to do this for the Ghost. I lack 5 more credits from the 12 needed to bring it in, and was hoping to go ahead and launch the character and pay back the negative credit balance over the next couple of weeks. If launched early, I would be required to mod an extra fight to pay back at least one credit per week, until the negative balance was paid off. Is this acceptable by everyone? For those who say no, at what point would it be acceptable (like when I only need 3 more credits, 2 more credits, or you think I must have all 12 before starting the character)? "Rules Lawyer Jindl" @Tharkos - Cat was only using that as a nickname, just like when we call him the Core Arena Boob ... er, I mean Bard :D. LLMadCow had suggested voting on a rules arbitrater or 3, but though I liked the idea a lot, it got ignored by the majority (and was never voted on). I look forward to hearing everyone's opinions about this stuff... -Jindl |
| Caterane01-26-04, 01:31 PM | @Jindl: I have no problem with having the Harvester sit out; have to wait anyway in case of a victory. Go ahead and fight Bilo. I`m more concerned that Ebelin gets a match. And I thought the rules arbiter are the 5 senior mods!? |
| Jindl01-26-04, 01:38 PM | Sorry, I didn't mean to confuse "rules arbitrater" with the Senior Mod panel who decides on error points. LL had actually suggested that one or two people be given the authority to decide on rules questions, out side of the fights. Thus, if you wanted to know if you can grapple someone using a tower shield for full cover, you could ask the rules lawyer to find out (I think the answer is no, btw). Seemed like a much quicker way to do it than discussing it for 7 days and voting (like the horseshoes discussion). It could just be settled in a couple of hours instead. But, the idea was largely ignored and just kinda vanished... -Jindl |
| Caterane01-26-04, 01:40 PM | So much power in one`s hand pains my democratic conscience. Just curious: whom do you have in mind? |
| Jindl01-26-04, 01:51 PM | Originally posted by Caterane So much power in one`s hand pains my democratic conscience. Just curious: whom do you have in mind? Mine too. So I would suggest have two people, who must agree on the rule. If they can't agree then it would go to a vote. LLMadCow had suggested ToK and myself, and I think we would both be up to the challenge, but there are others who could fill the role as well. The arena community would be trading off some democratic power for a faster response time on rule questions (and less time spent on endless rules debates). If lots of people want to do this, then it could be voted on, but until then, it is kind of a quiet idea. -Jindl |
| Caterane01-26-04, 01:56 PM | Hm, what about myself and Cat? :D Edit: Forget about Ebelin. I accept your offer with the Level 11 rolls. The Harvester must be arena champion. Just read Bruno`s note... |
| Jindl01-26-04, 01:58 PM | Originally posted by Caterane Hm, what about myself and Cat? :D Yeah, like you two would ever agree... :D -Jindl |
| cellardweller01-27-04, 09:39 PM | Hanz vs Roger has been run but is sitting on my PC at home. You'll have to wait 10-11 hrs till I get back from work. |
| Kaigan01-27-04, 11:00 PM | I just have a couple of questions 1. is it possible to sell previous items, and if so at what price can i sell them at. 2. is it possible to change alignment or skills, so that the character may get a prestige class. That's all for now, and thank you for any answers. |
| Kaigan01-27-04, 11:00 PM | see below. |
| Jindl01-27-04, 11:35 PM | Originally posted by Kaigan I just have a couple of questions 1. is it possible to sell previous items, and if so at what price can i sell them at. 2. is it possible to change alignment or skills, so that the character may get a prestige class. That's all for now, and thank you for any answers. 1. Items may be sold at 1/2 market value, if they were purchased before your last fight. 2. Could you be more specific? We allowed this in a few rare cases (such as when Smushy forget to take Draconic as a language for becoming a dragon disciple.) -Jindl |
| Jindl01-27-04, 11:41 PM | Re: New Sage Ruling on Power Attack - Well, the sage has done it again. Now he has decided that the light, one-handed, and two-handed classifications are ambiguous with power attack. What this means for us, is that for the purposes of power attack / disarm / etc., a dwarven waraxe is now a one handed weapon if used that way, even though its classification is a two handed weapon. Same thing goes for bastard swords and lances. So, when Moon-moon, Iron or the Harvester (for example) charge with their lance and power attack, they now trade bab at a 1-1 ratio if they use the lance 1-handed. The new sage advice can be found in the new Dragon Magazine. It will be published in the FAQ within a couple of weeks. Since we do use the FAQ here, this may not become official until it shows up there, but I wanted to go ahead and let everyone know. -Jindl -PS: I think its a sucky ruling :( |
| SnarkHunter01-27-04, 11:41 PM | Hey the board's working again! Neato! @Jindle, heh before the boards went down I was gonna offer to have Bilo sit out, but a role sounds fun too. @Kaigan: to expand, 1: We opperate on the 'used car' principal. As soon as the item is off the lot it loses half its value. This even applies if you crafted the item. So a scribed 1st level scroll (17.5gp) could be sold after a fight (8.75gp). Just make sure you note every thing sold. 2: I think the unspoken agreement is, within reason. That is You don't go from being a 5th level sorcerer to a fifth level monk because the spells aren't slinging how you'd like them. But a few reallocations of skills are forgivable. I can even recall once (I think it was ToK's?) a gladiator changed a metamagic feat when he realized it wouldn't work as he expected it to. Edit: Bah I say to thee oh sage! BAH! |
| LLMadCow01-28-04, 03:30 AM | Originally posted by SnarkHunter @Kaigan: to expand, 1: We opperate on the 'used car' principal. As soon as the item is off the lot it loses half its value. This even applies if you crafted the item. So a scribed 1st level scroll (17.5gp) could be sold after a fight (8.75gp). Just make sure you note every thing sold. Actually, the halfway decent thing about crafting and selling of items is that sold items sell for half of MARKET value. So, if you craft a suit of Plate Mail Armor for 1/2 cost and later decide you do not want it, you sell it for half of market price and manage to break even. This is how it has always been done, I have chatted with Mo about this in the past. Sadly, magic items usually cost 70% Market Value to make and you still only get 50% market value back if you sell it. So using the above example: Craft a 1st Level Spell Scroll = 17.5 gp Sell a 1st Level Spell Scroll = 12.5 Loss = 5gp |
| Moherajikuyx01-28-04, 04:20 AM | :uh-huh: Snark did you always do it like that? I always did like LL's saying... I never ever even thought about that... A house rule I adopt, after seeing how things work in the arena, is to raise the craft DC by 10 (darkwood), 15 (mithral), 20 (adam.) - PA: I think the sage's ruling makes sense... I don't think it will appear in the FAQ, thus. Is there the talk text around? - corrections: it is left to the player's conscience. After all, after having fun, an important thing is to learn from one's errors here: so, the corrections have to be possible, to a limit. Now posting my fights... For the boards downtime, I think we'll have to delay the pairings till tomorrow, sorry. *Edit* done... Two criticals, one each fight, really ruled all the good tactics. |
| cellardweller01-28-04, 08:05 AM | Roger & Zippy vs Hanz & Brutus posted. No fight for me this week please Mo |
| SnarkHunter01-28-04, 08:11 AM | Huh mo, in fact I have always done it that way. Jjust goes to show when you make an Assumption all you really do is make an 'Ass' out of 'U' and 'Mption'. @cellar rats. Well at least the loss of Brutus will soon be assuaged by his replacement by a much more competent individual. |
| Jindl01-28-04, 08:20 AM | Re: Selling Items Yep, LLMadCow has the right of it. Another way to say it is that merchants always buy items at 1/2 the market value, but that purhcases / craftings do not become final until your next fight. Re: Sage's Ruling Well, it seems like the FAQ is merely a reprint of the "Ask the Sage" articles from Dragon Magazine. I mean, its a word-for-word copy&paste job. Seems like they do it every 2 or 3 months, so we should see it in the FAQ soon. One good thing I'll say about this ruling, at least it is a decisive answer (there has been much debate about this on the boards). Hopefully they'll come up with decisive answers about other stuff, like HD caps on PAO.[wink] Level 11's Okay, I'm confused. Is Harvester sitting out? Is Bilo sitting out? Or are we rolling for it (regardless of # of PC's)? @Mo- Heh, I'll take cellardwellar's fights this week. I need the credits. Ghosts are expensive. -Jindl |
| Moherajikuyx01-28-04, 09:45 AM | Originally posted by Jindl Re: Sage's Ruling Ah! I thought you were talking about the last chat. Darn, I hoped to have a transcript. - credits: hehe don't worry! Having -s you'll be the first to get extra fights. Are you saying that you'll get even more than your pcs? |
| SnarkHunter01-28-04, 10:22 AM | Well I'll go edit Hanz and make sure everyone's ready for the Thursday pairing but first... Mo you haven't tallied the vote page recently but for issue 20a and 21 I have so far (excluding absenties and those who were unclear) 20a: 7 in favor 1 opposed. 21. 11 in favor and none opposed. Of those who commented about it only Motherbast didn't want to use a 25 point buy for cohort stat generation. That said...any reason I shouldn't start on Brutus the Barbarian? :D. |
| LLMadCow01-28-04, 11:07 AM | @Caterane - Please take a look at the challenge I posted for you (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&perpage=1&postid=2427169#post2427169) on the Core Arena Roleplay thread. @All - I am posting this because I am just as guilty as many others. It has recently occurred to me that people are stacking the use of Mage Armor with actual Armor. These two things DO NOT stack. They both confer ARMOR bonuses and the same types of boni do not stack. Sorry. As I said, I have even had characters do this in the past, and the only reason this occurred to me was when reviewing what magical items offer up what kinds of boni. |
| Tellish_of_Ket01-28-04, 11:27 AM | Originally posted by SnarkHunter I can even recall once (I think it was ToK's?) a gladiator changed a metamagic feat when he realized it wouldn't work as he expected it to. @snark: I don't have any spellcasting characters, so surely i think you mean someone else? Kelek is only now just become able to sling spells effectively. Previously he was only a 1st lvl wizard and i've never taken any meta-magic feats. He's had the same feats since creation. And hurtz? Well fighter/monk, kinda hard to justify the acquisition of a meta-magic feat for him, eh? @LL: I for one, don't ever recall reading a fight where the MOD stacked mage armor with regular armor here on the gladiator thread. If it happened, i sure's the heck didn't read that fight. @Jindl: I know i'd be cool with you whipping up the ghost now. But he's listed in the lvl 2 slots...just checking and i'm sure you know, but he'll be starting off in the L6 slots right? Tellish |
| Jindl01-28-04, 12:04 PM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket @snark: I don't have any spellcasting characters, so surely i think you mean someone else? Kelek is only now just become able to sling spells effectively. Previously he was only a 1st lvl wizard and i've never taken any meta-magic feats. He's had the same feats since creation. I think it was Gage (fluiddragon) who swapped out a Craft Wondrous Item feat after realizing he couldn't make anything at level 3. Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket I think it was Gage (fluiddragon) who changed out an item creation feat after realizing that with the caster level requirements he couldn't make anything until he had gone up many levels.@Jindl: I know i'd be cool with you whipping up the ghost now. But he's listed in the lvl 2 slots...just checking and i'm sure you know, but he'll be starting off in the L6 slots right? What, you don't think he should be facing level 2's? :D Well, Mo "accidently" put him there, but you are right. The ghost starts as an ECL 6, and I'm thinking about starting him this week, so we'll have an even # (even though I'll have some negative credits). -Jindl |
| Caterane01-28-04, 12:17 PM | @Jindl: I say we roll but if you definately want to fight I could volunteerly sit out with the Harvester. No problem; need credits anyway ...and then there`s Bruno and Iron with whom I have a bone to pick. Edit: On the other hand, I never fought Jindl before with the Harvester and we both faced Bilo twice already. Would be a cool fight! @Rosella: The Harvester challenges Ilene McPherson. Don`t know what the other two are doing but we are the only ones ready so far. |
| KerlanRayne01-28-04, 12:47 PM | @Mo: Regarding the Grym vs Grimlock fight. Firstly, I'm not sure you can change your action like that in the middle of a charge. Secondly, I don't think it matters because I don't think you can sunder as part of a charge. Sunder is a standard action but things like trip and disarm are not. @All: What do you all think of these two issues? KerlanRayne |
| sshuit01-28-04, 01:02 PM | Quick question. If I want to "upgrade" my +1 breastplate to +2 do I have to sell the +1 (at 1/2 market value) and then buy a +2 at full price?.. or can I just pay the difference in price to have the enchantment increased? Or to put it another way is it going to cost me 3000gp or 3675 :) sshuit |
| Ethendril01-28-04, 01:04 PM | If I want to "upgrade" my +1 breastplate to +2 do I have to sell the +1 (at 1/2 market value) and then buy a +2 at full price?.. or can I just pay the difference in price to have the enchantment increased? The DMG says you just pay the difference, so I think that's it. What about a mighty composite longbow, though? What if I have a +2 str. bonus, then my str. increases to +3? Can I upgrade the bow, or do I have to sell it and buy a new one? Also, what's the maximum bonus a mighty bow can have? -Ethendril |
| SnarkHunter01-28-04, 01:10 PM | @Cat: Hey your right! Given that I think Bilo will sit out, to pick over the losers next week :). @Ethendril, since there aren't any rules on upgrading str reqs on mighty bows I think you'd have to buy a new one. |
| Jindl01-28-04, 01:16 PM | @sshuit - Just pay the difference in price to upgrade the magical enhancement (or add any special abilities, like fire resistance, etc.) @Ethendril - Since the STR bonus is determined by the type of bow prior to magical enhancement, you would have to sell it/buy a different one to increase the mighty component. @KerlanRayne - I think you may have enough to challenge the fight for an error point. AFAIK, you are correct on both counts. You cannot change your action during a charge (even if your mount is part of the charge), and sundering is a standard action, not an attack action. So, feel free to initiate the error point challenge. @Cat, Mo, Snark - Very well. Then it will be Jindl vs the Harvester. Just make sure that Harvey knows he won't get a 2-1 power attack on his lance when he is using it one-handed, nor will he get 1.5 x his Str when using it one handed, per the Sage's ruling... Hey, Snark - do you want to moderate it? -Jindl Hey Cat - You have the 11th level Harvester challenging Aiki Auk? |
| Magagumo01-28-04, 01:18 PM | Yay! Boarda re up and Computer has been "liberated" from the clutches of Computer Service.. :D Hmm, thx for the final ruling on shairng spaces, one of my players in the arena (starting tomorrow!) fights Bruno at 14th level w/ 3 Storm Giants... so he'll be happy to be know he can attack the gnome... Of course, i could always Reduce Person... :D |
| ^Rayne^01-28-04, 01:50 PM | I am thinking I might have to issue a new different challenge since Ion Matzumura has not responded. I issued a challenge on the 25th (posted here, above my character sheet, and sent him a PM) but haven't had any response. So I am looking for a challenger who has a 2nd level PC to faceoff against. If anyone wants to have an arena battle this week and has a level 2 PC who is ready, please enter a challenge. I will accept right away so we can get a moderator for our battle quickly, thanks! |
| kattattack2201-28-04, 02:36 PM | Ony Akerr has challenged Aiki Auk. Ony Akerr challenges Aiki Auk (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2435528#post2435528) |
| Tharkos01-28-04, 02:47 PM | Boards are up again, but they screwed up the text window and made that even less wide than before ... *sigh* ... and the connection speed has decreased IMO (but thats very subjective). |
| ^Rayne^01-28-04, 02:49 PM | Aiki Auk accepts the challenge of Ony Akerr! So now we need to find a moderator for this battle now. Will any of the moderators be willing to add this fight to the battle-plan for the week? |
| KerlanRayne01-28-04, 02:54 PM | @Rayne: You don't have to challenge anyone. That's only if you want to fight a specific person. Mo rolls randomly and puts fights together. All you need to do is have your character up to date and write [Ready for DATE] in the character post's subject line. If you do that, you will automatically get paired in a fight. KerlanRayne |
| ^Rayne^01-28-04, 03:17 PM | ^Thanks for the information. I was under the impression that there had to be a formal challenge and acceptance by particpants in order to be paired for battles. I see I miss understood this part of the setup for games. Still I sort of like offering challenges on a more fun level. :) Rayne |
| Caterane01-28-04, 05:57 PM | Hey Cat - You have the 11th level Harvester challenging Aiki Auk? Well, he desperately searched someone so I thought I make my today`s good deed right now :angel: Just make sure that Harvey knows he won't get a 2-1 power attack on his lance when he is using it one-handed, nor will he get 1.5 x his Str when using it one handed, per the Sage's ruling... He doesn`t have Power attack. At least, not until next level. And with my animated shield I use the lance twohanded in future fights. |
| MotherBast01-28-04, 06:01 PM | Candy is going to have a listing for a classed cohort included on her sheet. If classed cohorts are going to be allowed this week, I will send tactics for her fight with it. I will also leave the eagle on the sheet, so if classed cohorts are delayed till next week, then I will send tactics for it. I just want to make sure Candy will be ready either way. Also, the proposal to have Jindl and ToK as "rules Lawers" was actually mine. It would be a lot less freedom for a lot of players, but would allow rules issues to be setteled very quickly. I actually proposed there be 3 lawers, and they would vote on each issue, and whichever side got 2 at least would be "correct" as far as the arena was concerned. Jindl and ToK were just two names I through out a possible members of this three man councle. About my fight.... Brackin hates, he hates, he absolutly hates undead. Killed by a single mace strike..... how embarising..... |
| barrel_master01-28-04, 06:07 PM | Hello boards are up... Octavian is going for the next week. |
| Caterane01-28-04, 06:24 PM | Originally posted by Rosella: I've actually been expecting it! You may issue it in the roleplay thread, Ilene does not step back from a fight vs. evil! |
| ^Rayne^01-28-04, 06:44 PM | Aiki Auk will have to take a rain check on taking on The Harvester. If he ever gets high enough in level to do battle with the Harvester may the gods be with him. ;) |
| ^Rayne^01-28-04, 06:48 PM | Aiki Auk will have to take a rain check on taking on The Harvester. If he ever gets high enough in level to do battle with the Harvester may the gods be with him. ;) Oops Double Post, sorry the boards 'hung-up' for awhile and I thought the first post didn't take. |
| Magagumo01-28-04, 06:57 PM | A "Morningstar" strike, Mother :-P... oh and that rock in the beginning as well. One note, as this is the first time Dimension Door was used to escape a grapple, the caster must make a Concentration check 24 (20 + spell level) in order to get out. While Bruno needed to roll an 8, this wasn't too big as one cannot miss and accidently hit the wrong person in a grapple with a melee weapon. Ranged weapons, however, can hit the wrong person, which is why Improved Precise Shot is useful. Just thought I should point this out, as the high level spellcasters have begun to accumulate Dimension Door vs. all the nasty grapplers out there. |
| MotherBast01-28-04, 07:53 PM | Ok, morningstar then. So I'm not just flat, I also have holes in my dead flat body. I'm still dead either way. I guess Brackin bumps. He, Candy, and Drakiel are all set ready. Oh, and my reply to Bruno is on the RP thread. |
| Jindl01-28-04, 09:09 PM | @Cat - Just reading over the Harvester, as it appears I must face him this week. I noticed a couple of things... 1. Please list as part of equipment what spell is stored in your ring of counterspells. 2. Despite the fact that a lance can be used one handed while mounted, you cannot wield a huge lance, because it is more than a two handed weapon. This is another effect of the new sage ruling, regarding weapon use vs weapon size. 3. Your +1 lance actually threatens an area from 10-20' away. See the rules on large creatures and reach weapons. 4. Your longbow attack bonus does not take into acount your size penalty; the bonus to hit should be: +8 base +2 dex +1 mw -1 size = +10. 5. What is the Harvester's weight? (Primarily for comparison of how much weight Nightingale can carry as a light load?) Remember, enlarge person multiplies your weight by 8, and the weight of your equipment by 2. If you could take a look at these things and let me know, I would appreciate it :D -Jindl |
| Alathar Vierce01-28-04, 09:31 PM | *is still alive* Yet again I return, sorry for the leave of absence, my vacation ran right into the start of a new semester of college. First 2 weeks are always a pain to get situated. I'm kind of late for this weeks fights, but I'm typing out a replacement for cadion. Will post when he's ready to go. G'luck on this weeks fights folks Edit: Derezan the Crimson (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1158275#post1158275) Ready to go :smirk: |
| Jindl01-28-04, 09:42 PM | Originally posted by Alathar Vierce *is still alive* Yet again I return, sorry for the leave of absence, my vacation ran right into the start of a new semester of college. First 2 weeks are always a pain to get situated. I'm kind of late for this weeks fights, but I'm typing out a replacement for cadion. Will post when he's ready to go. G'luck on this weeks fights folks Welcome back!! Pairings wont be til late tomorrow, so you still have time to put in Cadion's replacement if you like. -Jindl EDIT: Jindl, the Elder, and the Ghost are all ready for this weeks pairings. Please ensure that I have 3-4 fights to moderate, so that I may begin paying off the negative credits. (Please be nice and give me 1 high level and the rest low level, easy fights to mod :( ) |
| Tharkos01-29-04, 02:10 AM | I would like to make a proposal about the lighting conditions in the arena which is pretty simple but could be modified if someone can think of something better. This is for the purpose of adding another dimension to the available tactics which have ignored racial skills like Darkvision until now. With the light coming from everywhere the existence of shadows anywhere is doubtful and thus the Hide skill would be semi-useless because you could only hide on the other side of an obstacle. [list=1] The "lighting spots" are in each coloumn, they could be made up of a large fire which can be extinguished by several actions (sufficient amount of water, pulling the "logs" apart, Darkness, ...) the height at which they are needs to be determined ... the radius of illumination needs to be determined ... [/list=1] For part 3 I would suggest maybe 10' up and for part 4 it needs to be about 70'+ to reach the starting positions. Granted, this doesnt reflect the fact that the arena can be used in daylight, but since there are quite a few characters with Darkvision and because in a roleplaying environment some of the more dangerous encounters happen in darkness I think this would be a reasonable change. Extinguishing these "fires" takes time and shouldnt even be harmless if you take the "cheapest" version of "kicking it out". If someone is willing to spend the time to do it thats ok IMO because it would just help the opponent locating him. |
| ^Rayne^01-29-04, 02:25 AM | I kind of like the idea of having varied lighting conditions in the arena. Some races and classes have advantages that are dependant on darkvision or lowlight vision. By not giving them anywhere in the arena where this advantage is brought to bare it takes away that advantage and it favors other races where this isn't an issue. I don't think the arena should be plunged in total darkness because that makes it unfavorable for the races that are hindered by such conditions. However as the person mentioned above this would allow more tactics to be used for races and classes that have these special abilities. Hypothetically if all the races are fair and balanced then by illuminating all conditions of near or total darkness in areas of the arena is unfairly biased in favor of those who would be handicapped in such situations. I also believe having these variations in the arena would make the matches more exciting because it adds a whole new set of obstacles and challenges for added strategy and tactics. |
| Moherajikuyx01-29-04, 04:35 AM | Originally posted by SnarkHunter That said...any reason I shouldn't start on Brutus the Barbarian? :D. OK go on, polls closed and new polls opened! *Edit* speaking of which: I'd like the new players to go to the polls thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=114957&perpage=60) and to post once, to make their opinions known! (We'll have to wait another fight for the point buy Snark, I think that's a big enough question to require a poll for its own) Welcome back AV! STOP THE EDITING GUYS... PAIRINGS UNDER COURSE!!! |
| cellardweller01-29-04, 04:39 AM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx 23. Do you think that the horseshoes of speed are for horses only? I'm thinking this should be 23a Do you think that the horseshoes of speed are for horses only? 23b Do you think that the horseshoes of speed are for animals only? |
| Moherajikuyx01-29-04, 05:15 AM | Edited, thanks cellar: the additional keyword should be enough... and... PAIRINGS DONE!! |
| Rosella01-29-04, 06:54 AM | To make your job easier; isn't is possible to delete those that haven't answered polls for a long time? I can imagine that it's hard enough already. |
| Caterane01-29-04, 07:16 AM | AHHHH PAIRINGS DONE??? I thought they were in the evening!?!?!? I wanted to buy an adamantine weapon!!! but I had to work! AND JINDL MADE AGAIN A LAST SECOND SHOPPING!!! HELL JINDL I SWEAR THAT`S THE LAST TIME I FIGHT ONE OF YOUR CHARACTERS!!!! FOUL TACTICS!! |
| Moherajikuyx01-29-04, 07:36 AM | :rolleyes: Brackin had to be bumped... I even ran his fight and he even told that to me. I have to do a slight change to the pairings, sorry guys. Done... Hope all is well now. Cat, Jindl, I think you two can agree about this thing. Maybe as you two already knew that you had to fight each other, the time limit with the equipment is to be considered less restrictive? Rosella- that would be nice, sadly though we need a wizo for that. |
| Jindl01-29-04, 08:09 AM | Please allow me to respond: 1. My last edit to the character was done 11 hours and 45 minutes before Mo did pairings (ie. before I went to bed last night). That's hardly a last minute adjustment. 2. The only thing that I changed during this last edit, was to correct my hps, buy 250 gp of diamond dust (to use with stoneskin) and to pay to have a spell put into my ring of spell storing. All other equipment purchases had been done on Monday before the boards went down. 3. I am well within the rules, and the spirit of the arena to make these changes, especially since it was almost 12 hours before the pairings. -Jindl |
| Caterane01-29-04, 08:23 AM | Actually it was about 4 hours before Mo anounced that the pairings are under course. Of course, at that time I was sleeping and when I woke up I went to work. I didn`t think that was a problem because I thought that the... Originally posted by Jindl: Pairings wont be til late tomorrow I thought the whole day about what I will buy when I come home and now imagine my surprise when I saw that the pairings are already set. So I ask you hereby to allow me to alter my sheet. |
| Moherajikuyx01-29-04, 08:28 AM | My wording didn't make sense, I edited the above post |
| LLMadCow01-29-04, 08:36 AM | @Cat - I know how you feel about shopping. The same thing has happened to me in the past... :( |
| Tellish_of_Ket01-29-04, 08:42 AM | Hey, at least you got guys fighting this week. I only managed to have ONE of my FOUR characters fight this week. The only guy fighting this week is the only guy i DIDN'T want to fight. So don't feel like you got jipped. Tellish |
| Jindl01-29-04, 10:13 AM | Originally posted by Caterane So I ask you hereby to allow me to alter my sheet. Go right ahead. Please keep in mind that I don't know exactly when Mo will do pairings either. I set my characters ready last night, knowing he would do them today, but not when today. Also, please take a look at my above post, where I had some ?'s about the Harvester (his weight, what spell is in his ring, some bonuses not adding up right, and not being able to use a huge lance thanks to the new Sage ruling.) -Jindl |
| Jindl01-29-04, 10:21 AM | @ToK and Mo - 1. Both ToK and MotherBast had 2 active pc's when determining the pairings for 2nd level. So, there prolly should have been a doesn't fight roll instead of Silencius automatically sitting out. 2. If Kelek would rather face the Elder, then Hurtz can trade spots with him. 3. If cellardweller gets a chance to make Johan ready, then he could face ToK's other 9th level fighter... -Jindl |
| ^Rayne^01-29-04, 11:13 AM | Boy don't I feel stupid... I see now that one can change equipment up to the point where Mo announces the pairings are locked. Tellish_of_Ket told me to trade my potion of Protection from Law in and get a Potion of Shield of Faith +2, but I thought I couldn't once a challenge was accepted by both individuals involved in the fight. It seems I goofed because I'm a newbie around here. Oh well, I'll be better prepared next time. :embarrass |
| Rosella01-29-04, 11:32 AM | Don't feel bad about it; Ilene's been showing off in the arena with a standard pack horse and a composite longbow while having below average strength at the time :rolleyes: |
| Moherajikuyx01-29-04, 11:32 AM | Good boys! Flame war missed, I'm happy :angel:... And a bit deluded :devil: I'd suggest everyone adding all the encumbrances and the costs too, which makes the sheet easier for the mod to check. Jindl- 1. has to be a no: I have to begin from up or from down, and I chosed long time ago to begin from up (lvl 2) because it's usually less important to the gladiators who have more than one pc. I can't change things anytime... It would be wrong towards MB this time, for example: ToK had 4, MB 3. 2. this is ok for me. ToK? 3. idem. cellar? Ethendril did you forget home the horse? :D |
| Ethendril01-29-04, 11:59 AM | Ethendril did you forget home the horse? Naw, that vile Smushy (cellardwellar) took down my horse in our last fight, and I didn't have the funds to replace him. So I'm at a serious disadvantage while on foot...I'm sure Babar will be disappointed that I'm bringing my toad with me instead. Still, I advance a level regardless, so no worries. -Ethendril EDIT: Tactics received for Pale-Rider. @ Cat: Tactics sent for Dusk. |
| Caterane01-29-04, 01:00 PM | @Jindl: Ok, updated. I just bought 2 weapons and left the rest untouched. I also added the Ring spell, the encumberance, corrected the longbow attack and refunded the huge lance, though I`m not sure that I cannot use it. Thanks btw. Another thing: Last sunday I wanted to cast a second False life (with Vandaeris). My DM said it is nonsense that False life stacks and forbid it. Actually I had the same opinion because same spells never stack, so if I have a spell that grants me a dodge bonus it wouldn`t stack with itself either. Tactics received from Hurtz "the chicken" and Babar |
| barrel_master01-29-04, 01:31 PM | Originally posted by barrel_master Hello boards are up... Octavian is going for the next week. Arg!!! Ha ha... I should be more clear next time. |
| JonahBlack01-29-04, 01:51 PM | @Jindl - Tactics are sent for Grimlock |
| Arstimis01-29-04, 02:03 PM | Why do I get to be the lucky one to be anna's first test subject. I'm good at grappling...she is immune. Oh well...anyways it won't make a difference for this fight, but Jindl could you list anna's alignment |
| Caterane01-29-04, 02:08 PM | She`s neutral, like all his characters :rolleyes: |
| Tharkos01-29-04, 02:15 PM | Originally posted by Ethendril Naw, that vile Smushy (cellardwellar) took down my horse in our last fight, and I didn't have the funds to replace him. Wasnt there a "free resurrection" for any cohorts and horses are counted as the one cohort ? |
| Ethendril01-29-04, 02:17 PM | Wasnt there a "free resurrection" for any cohorts and horses are counted as the one cohort ? I thought this was true for familiars, cohorts, etc., but not true for horses, griffons, or any other normal animal you purchase rather than acquire in some other way (i.e. feat or class ability). If I'm wrong, I'd love to have my mount back, but I think this is the rule. -Ethendril |
| kattattack2201-29-04, 02:42 PM | @Jindl - Tatics have been sent. |
| Tharkos01-29-04, 04:03 PM | Originally posted by Ethendril I thought this was true for familiars, cohorts, etc., but not true for horses, griffons, or any other normal animal you purchase rather than acquire in some other way (i.e. feat or class ability). Since there is the "1 cohort limit" and horses fill that slot I wouldnt see anything wrong with them being resurrected for free ... the only exception IMO would be undead which cant be "recycled" (i.e. animated twice). But I could be wrong about this ... |
| Caterane01-29-04, 04:06 PM | Why am I not surprised about your opinion? Well, then why don`t we decide that Laness has to wait a year and a day to aquire a new familiar if her`s deceased? |
| KerlanRayne01-29-04, 04:13 PM | Looks like I missed out on the pairings, but if Wizard can update Elxethan Quithen, maybe he could fight Grym. KerlanRayne |
| Caterane01-29-04, 04:34 PM | @^Rayne^ I read your roleplay posts and they are really good. You also seem to put a bit of time and thought into your writing. Now, why don`t you sign on as a moderator? |
| MotherBast01-29-04, 04:41 PM | Purchased allies do not count as cohorts. They do fill your "one allie" slot if you take them into a fight. Any purchased mount has to be repurchased if it dies. Candy had to buy a new "Pony" when her first one died. Her eagle, on the other hand, was a cohort and was resurected for free. This rule is kinda outdated, and should probably be reconcidered now that Undead, handled animals, and cohorts have hit the scene. Speaking of undead, why on earth could a corpse not be animated twice? When destroyed, undead are corpses again, and by all accounts legal targets for the undead maker spells. Still, they couldn't be "resurected", but the spell used to create them could be cast again. About the horseshoes issue, myself and I noticed one other person, can't remember who it was, made good points on the Polls thread. Magic items can adjust to the warer, but must be "worn" first, or they don't have a "warer". The "ware" a set of horseshoes, they must be nailed to a foot. No creatrue without hooves is going to have anything nailed to it's foot, much less 4 things requiring 4 to 6 nails apiece, depending on the size. So while the horseshoes might adjust to the warer, only a hooved animal would ever ware them. |
| Caterane01-29-04, 04:48 PM | ...like a nightmare. Jindl. Wake up! :D I need to talk with you about stackable False life spells, like the Elder has on its sheet. You others can add your mustard, too |
| Jindl01-29-04, 04:49 PM | Tactics recieved from Dr. Dre, Herrix, Grimlock, and Ony. Re: Free ressurrection of allies This was suggested a long time ago when I compiled the rules of allies ... but it was largely ignored. I don't have any problem or see any difference between the free ressurrection for a purchased horse compared to a megaraptor gained through a monster fight, or a wizard's familiar (though the wizard still has to pay for the xp lost). Undead created by animate dead, however, do have a major problem with "free ressurrections". The spell specifically says the corpse is unsuitable for re-animation. So, that's part of the drawback to using undead. You get awesome power (compared to any other type of ally), but if they die, you have to go through another monster fight. As for the living allies, I don't see any problem with free ressurrection, regardless of the methods/means used to acquire them in the first place. Re: Temporary hit point stacking Can someone please show me the rule where it says you cannot stack temp hps? I know fluiddragon used to do this with his sorc's, and the Elder did this in his last fight. AFAIK, there is nothing against this in 3.5. So, if someone can please show me where it says you can't, I would appreciate it. Otherwise, I'll assume that the Elder does get temp hp's from both castings of False Life. @Cat Thanks for addressing those issues. BTW: Lances are made primarily from wood, therefore you can't get an adamantine lance. Sorry :( @Arstimis Anna is true neutral, not concerned with morality, only with exacting justice (read vengeance) on the arena and moderators who caused her death... As for "all" my characters being nuetral, I'm not sure Caterane should be the one complaining about that... *cough* Harvesters *cough* @KerlanRayne Unfortunately Wizard has been MIA for a couple of weeks. Perhaps Delynal (Sir Cridion) will answer your challenge, as he was the odd man out for level 3. For the Horseshoes poll Could it be worded as such: ##) Please vote either a,b, or c: Horseshoes of speed can be worn by a) any animal ; b) any creature with hooves ; or c) only animals with hooves (such as bison, horses, boars, goats, etc). Then just tally up the votes and whichever letter gets the most votes wins. -Jindl |
| Caterane01-29-04, 05:00 PM | Alignment: Yeah, but the Harvesters are neutral because there`s a reason behind this, namely death, which is neutral too. Vandaeris is chaotic neutral where he could easily be true neutral too. And Ebelin is lawful good. My next char will be good too. I don`t give anything on Prot.from alignment. Ressurection: Nah. It`s the same thing with the familiar, the free repaired sundered objects, and many more. The reason behind this free ressurection is to focus on the current fight and not on how to make the most financial damage to the foe. Remember the early days of the arena where everyone smashed the others equipment while he was unconscious? Back when "familiar hunting" was popular? False life: Because spells with the same name don`t stack. Give me one exception. Take dodge: normally it would stack but if there`s a spell that grants such a bonus multiple castings wouldn`t stack. Adamantine Lance: Arrows are also mostly of wood and they can be made adamantine. And why shouldn`t there be adamantine lances? Or steel lances? |
| Magagumo01-29-04, 05:11 PM | Hey guys, looks like Bruno and Rito are at it again :) A couple notes: 1st- False Life can stack because it is not giving a named bonus or penalty (Enhancements from the buff spells, or Ray of Enfeeblement) but is instead simply granting you temporary hps which last for a given amount of time. In the same way that one could have multiple guidances running. It doesn't matter if the spell has the same name, it just matters what kind of effect it has. Hps generally can stack, as multiple Vampiric Touches can gain you a block of temporary hp. I'd most definetely say they stack, Cat, as the PHB specifically says that only spells that "provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes [read: Physical and Mental Stats] do not stack with themselves]" I suppose hp's could be read as an attribute, but I'm not sure. Aid could theoretically stack with itself for temp hp, but it only lasts minutes, and is based off of a compulsion effect... *shrugs* Undead- Theoretically, a "slain" undead crumbles into dust, making it impossible to raise dead once more. @Moh Next week, I would like to begin Modding two fights/week again, gots to collect me those credits :) @Jindl I like the idea of the torches on top of the columns.. I'm glad the arena is finally ready to listen to what I suggested 5 months ago ^_^. Nah, I'm actually fine with that... Moving on, I wonder where shadows are now? You see, Zorander has Hide in PLain Sight, whcih functions within 10' of a shadow.... so, is there a 5'-10' radius of shadow around every object in the arena? Or what? V. Critical for the fight this week... |
| Jindl01-29-04, 05:13 PM | Originally posted by Caterane Ressurection: Nah. It`s the same thing with the familiar, the free repaired sundered objects, and many more. The reason behind this free ressurection is to focus on the current fight and not on how to make the most financial damage to the foe. Remember the early days of the arena where everyone smashed the others equipment while he was unconscious? Back when "familiar hunting" was popular? No, its different. A familiar dies, and the master can bring it back by having true ressurrection cast. But when an animated corpse (skeleton or zombie) dies, the corpse is not suitable for another casting of animate dead. The spell description specifically says this. That's why its different, and that's why you would have to acquire another corpse. Originally posted by Caterane False life: Because spells with the same name don`t stack. Give me one exception. Take dodge: normally it would stack but if there`s a spell that grants such a bonus multiple castings wouldn`t stack. Please show me the rule that says they don't. AFAIK, there is no rule in 3.5 that says multiple castings of unnamed bonuses don't stack. That's what makes the evil Awaken trick possible. The bonus is unnamed. The temporary hps are also an unnamed bonus. BTW: Dodge bonuses always stack with each other. So, um, multiple Haste spells do stack the dodge bonuses to AC. Actually the dodge bonuses from multiple Haste spells don't stack, because it is a bonus to AC. Thanks, Magagumo for pointing that out to me :) I'll be happy to change the sheet and stuff, providing you can show me the rule where it says temp. hps don't stack. Originally posted by Caterane Adamantine Lance: Arrows are also mostly of wood and they can be made adamantine. And why shouldn`t there be adamantine lances? Or steel lances? Here's the quote from the SRD which says that you can't. Apparently they made an exception for arrows and crossbow bolts. from the SRD Items without metal parts cannot be made from adamantine. An arrow could be made of adamantine, but a quarterstaff could not. AFAIK, lances do not have any metal parts. But then, I'm not an expert on medieval weapons. All I know is the ones I've seen in movies and such never had any metal parts. What does everyone else think? -Jindl |
| JonahBlack01-29-04, 05:20 PM | The lances in at least the PHB (at least the 3.0) do not show any significant metal parts (i.e. damaging parts). However, AFAIK, the lances shown are jousting lances, and combat lances are more like long spears, with metal heads. My only problem with an Adamantine Lance is that, despite the fact that the whole haft is made of wood, and only the tip is adamantine, the weapon would still have hardness 20. I suppose this is the case with any pole arm, though. If I were a DM, I'd have to think long and hard about this. So, in short, it's been a long day, and I don't really have a point, but thought I'd share my thoughts anyway. |
| Sir Cridion01-29-04, 05:21 PM | @Kerlan Rayne: I'd be willing to have Delynal fight Grym if you want. Being rolled out is no fun ;) @all: Hey the boards are up again! |
| Jindl01-29-04, 05:24 PM | @Mag - the lights on the columns is not my idea. I would instead suggest that "shadows" exist within 10 feet of all columns, and within 5 feet of any creatures or rocks. These shadows wouldn't grant a miss chance due to concealment, but they would function for the shadowdancers special abilities. As for different illuminations in the arenas, what? Don't you people think the moderators have a tough enough time as it is? Now you want us to remember to calculate light conditions as part of each of those thousands of spot checks (where we already have to remeasure distance each time somebody moves , like twice a round...) Simply put, it is way too much work to try to calculate illumination. Mo knew this when he started the core arena, which is why he listed the "general" guideline. Everything in the arena is general. Which means the illumination as well. It doesn't cause anyone penalties. It meets the criteria for special abilities, though I think HiPS should be restricted to areas near objects. -Jindl |
| ^Rayne^01-29-04, 05:26 PM | I would say you're probably right Jindl on the lance issue. I don't think lances were ever made with any significant amount of material other than wood. To do so would make the weight so high because of their extreme length that it would likely cause the rider to have a difficult time balancing on their horse. Of course in a fantasy world anything is possible so maybe the lance could have an adamantine tip at the end? That certainly doesn't sound unreasonable. I noticed in your sample it said a staff can only be made of wood but I'm pretty sure I've seen a few staffs with ends capped in nice thick weighted metal ends for a little more punch. The more I write about this the more I could see this argument going in either direction. It looks like another vote might be order? ;) Sorry I just can't make up my mind on this one. |
| Moherajikuyx01-29-04, 05:30 PM | Originally posted by barrel_master Arg!!! Ha ha... I should be more clear next time. DOH! Sorry barrel, this week I missed a whole lot of posts. hooves MB, this is a typical example of the use-logics-is-wrong thing... Originally posted by Tharkos Wasnt there a "free resurrection" for any cohorts and horses are counted as the one cohort ? It's there for the cohorts. It was suggested for the other ones when they had to be payed for. Now they cost a lot less: you have to do a monster fight. As one of the main users, I say that the monster fight has to be done again. They are free for cohorts, and class features, so we can say that they get resurrected, or that a clone arrives: it doesn't matter. I think that we should vote about this. The wizards have to pay for the xp cost when they lose a familiar, rolling immediately, which is quite huge. |
| kattattack2201-29-04, 05:30 PM | I know for certain that lances used in battle did have metal, otherwise charging at your oppoent and scoring hit against metal armor the lance would break. Jonah is right about lances having metal heads, at the very least. I do believe that lances where made of steel for combat, but I would have to double check with a friend that specializes in Medieval history. But even saying that the lance head is made of metal I think that puts it in the category of significant metal parts. It would just like an arrow, metal head and wooden shaft. |
| Magagumo01-29-04, 05:44 PM | Hmm @Jindl, Well, I must concur that it would be too much work, just amused that someone brought it up again My apologies to the true originator of this idea.. whomever you may be... As for metal lances, I do wonder if the head should be enough, otherwise Wizards would effectiveley had made a weapon useless vs. golems... or at least far less effective. This would make sense if it were related to type of damage (pierce, bludg, slash) but this material type seems a mite broad to be applied to the lance. Then again, I have no idea what they were thinking when they made that rule regarding significant metal, but I believe the metal tip (like the shodding on a quarterstaff) is sufficient for adamantine, silver, or cold iron. |
| Moherajikuyx01-29-04, 05:48 PM | OK! Barrel, Octavian was luckily in an odd level! He's against Nevrlok, and Mag got the requested fight! :) Also, Delynal-Grym added, and ToK, who got the fight above, moderates... Seems things... Evened out :) Uff... The roster keeping is hard, but satisfying. |
| Caterane01-29-04, 05:50 PM | Lances: I was a guide in a big medieval exhibition last term and I tell you that some lances had metal heads - and since this is sufficent for an arrow to qualify it`s ok for lances too. False life: My DM will hate me for that. I am still hesistant to use it with Vandaeris because it doesn`t seem right to me to have more hp than any fighter in the group. It`s ok for the Elder though in the arena |
| Tharkos01-29-04, 06:53 PM | Originally posted by Caterane Why am I not surprised about your opinion? Well, then why don`t we decide that Laness has to wait a year and a day to aquire a new familiar if her`s deceased? Sure ... do that and ignore the fact Laness doesnt even have a familiar and never will. Just dont skip any opportunity to give any bad comments when I post an OPONION ABOUT A HOUSERULE .... sometimes I wonder if you think at all before posting. Undead do have their disadvantages and if you dont like them you should choose a different mount. |
| Sir Cridion01-29-04, 06:53 PM | Question: What's the policy on changing feats? This doesn't pertain to this fight, but I was wondering if I could swap Iron Will for Power Attack after the fight? IW is btw, the feat I just got this level, and I don't expect it to play any role for this week's battle. Thanks |
| Jindl01-29-04, 06:58 PM | Re: "Metal" lances. I bow to the greater knowledge of the group. A lance can be made with an adamantine tip (and thus bypassing DR/adamantine). Though, I would still question if it gets hardness of 20, when attempts are made to sunder it. Tactics recieved for Voliana. -Jindl @Sir Cridion - It's not the first time someone wanted to change a feat. We frown on it, but allow it sometimes. Since you just got the feat, why not ask your opponent if he would let you change it prior to the fight. If he says yes, then just include the change as part of your tactics (do not edit your character). Otherwise, just make the change after the fight. |
| Tharkos01-29-04, 07:03 PM | False life stacks with itself because its an "unnamed" bonus, but in the end it balances out for the arena since the slots you have to spend for this extra life arent available in the arena fight, not even if the total duration of the (extended) False Life would be greater than 24 hours. If they wouldnt be lost Sorcerors of level 10+ would get 200++ hit points from all the available slots converted into extra life. Some other spells with VERY LONG durations exist however (day/level stuff like deeper darkness), which might become exceptions to the lost spell slots rule. Recharging your Ring of Counterspells with the pretty standard Dispel Magic is another one ... as would be creating a magic item. |
| Rosella01-29-04, 07:12 PM | I would think that changing feats between fights is allowed, not after you're paired though. You should only do that if it is an obvious construct mistake though, don't just change it because it's less useful at higher levels, after all, you did need to get there first. I myself have even changed ability scores because I misunderstood the function of composite longbows, and I also realized that a spell is still wrong in my character. I do intend to change a spell after the fight. (I found that out after I started developing a career path for Ilene, I now know a little more about what she would like to become, and certain things just don't fit.) |
| Tellish_of_Ket01-29-04, 07:30 PM | Well, i'd be against the adamantine lances, but i usually just go with the flow. It's just the tip that would be adamantine. The rest is still wood and thus would be subject to warp wood/sundering, as it normally would be. @Rosellsa: You're not alone in that club. When i first started i didn't have much of a clue about optimization when i made Kelek. And his record shows, as does his wasted feats. I have a better idea now what i would like to do, and am thinking about retiring him for a "new and improved assassin". Tellish |
| ^Rayne^01-29-04, 07:44 PM | From a role playing standpoint there isn't anything wrong with not having your feats optimized for maximum punch in the arena. I know there are things I could do already to make my kobold better but there is something adventurous about sticking with a character that isn't perfect. When you win it is just that much sweeter because victory wasn't expected it was earned. ;) Sorry just the sage advice of a player who is less interested in min/maxing. Although in a game like this it would seem min/maxing is 80% the point. Ahh well, Aiki may not have a very prosperous career in the coliseum but it will be fun fighting none the less. |
| Jindl01-29-04, 07:57 PM | Bah! Rito Maya is the Core Arena Loser. He's got more losses than anyone. He's not exactly optimized. He's also everyone's favorite PC. I'm glad Mo still keeps him around. He's a great character. Yes, the arena is about optimization. But its also about fun. So, fight on litlle kobold samurai. Fight on. -Jindl |
| MotherBast01-29-04, 08:07 PM | MO, while I agree logic does have very little to do with this game, my post wasen't about logic, it was about rules. A magic item has to be worn before it can adjust to the creature wareing it. There is no other way to ware horseshoes besides having them nailed to hooves. Untill the process is completed, the creature wouldn't be "waring" the shoes, and they would not adjust themselves. Thats the rules, not logic. |
| cellardweller01-29-04, 08:31 PM | Originally posted by Jindl 3. If cellardweller gets a chance to make Johan ready, then he could face ToK's other 9th level fighter... Johan is ready to take on any comers. He wasn't listed as active because I am not modding any fights this round. If I can trade in one of my +'s he will be glad to take on Kelek (I will leave his L9 feat blank for this round). |
| Jindl01-29-04, 09:02 PM | Originally posted by cellardweller Johan is ready to take on any comers. He wasn't listed as active because I am not modding any fights this round. If I can trade in one of my +'s he will be glad to take on Kelek (I will leave his L9 feat blank for this round). If ToK agrees, then I would suggest that Mo make the match between Johan and Kelek. Since ToK would need to mod another fight, I'll trade him the Rito vs Bruno fight, and I'll run the Kelek vs Johan match. Sound good to those involved? Cellardweller? ToK? Mo? -Jindl |
| cellardweller01-29-04, 09:40 PM | No sweat. You'll have to wait 12hrs or so for tactics from Johan though. |
| Tellish_of_Ket01-29-04, 09:43 PM | I'm down with that. Those gladiators that i'm now adjusting for the new fights, please send me the tactics. If you've already sent them and havea saved copy, re-send. Don't wait for the old mod to forward them to me. Kelek vs Johan it is. muwhahaha Tellish |
| Jindl01-29-04, 10:29 PM | Bruno and Rito have not yet sent tactics to me. Please send your tactics direct to your new moderator, Tellish of Ket. I am missing tactics from Johan and Kelek (duh), and Aiki Auk. I will begin running fights tomorrow, starting with Grimlock vs Voliana and Dr.Dre vs Herrix. -Jindl |
| sshuit01-29-04, 10:43 PM | @mo : Could you add another option to the horseshoes question? I think that horseshoes should only be allowed for animals with the attack type "Hoof" this makes sense and is the way the item was intended in my opinion. thanks sshuit Originally posted by MotherBast There is no other way to ware horseshoes besides having them nailed to hooves. I agree totally. In my opinion a hoof is not the same type of slot as a foot. that's why horses can't wear boots of springing and striding and a human can't wear horseshoes of speed. The only animals that should be able to wear horseshoes are HOOVED, (or is that hoofed?) animals. so things like, pegasi, unicorns, horses, ponies and other animals whose attack type says HOOF. would be a good start. Not talon, claw etc.etc |
| SnarkHunter01-29-04, 11:26 PM | Tactics sent for Moon Moon and Hanz. I've recieved tactics from Cat (harvester the 2nd) and Illene. I wait in eager anticipation for additional tactics though I prolly won't be running fights for a while... |
| sshuit01-30-04, 12:00 AM | Just modded the Coralias vs Oetzi fight. 4 rounds. Death by arrow. *gasp* I'll come up with a story and get it posted. Tomorrow hopefully sshuit |
| KerlanRayne01-30-04, 12:18 AM | I don't mind you changing the Iron Will to Power Attack. Go right ahead. KerlanRayne |
| ^Rayne^01-30-04, 02:20 AM | Jindl my tactics for Aiki Auk have been sent to you. I look forward to reading my PC's first battle. I hope it is a glorious fight. :) Rayne |
| ^Rayne^01-30-04, 03:06 AM | Caterane I read your roleplay posts and they are really good. You also seem to put a bit of time and thought into your writing. Now, why don`t you sign on as a moderator? Thanks for the friendly compliment. If moderating one game a week allows me to build one additional kobold PC then I might just start moderating. I could handle one game a week without any trouble. Besides I just thought of a new concept for a PC that I want to spend time developing in the Gladiator Pits. Plus it will give my two PC's and opportunity to interact which means even more role-playing possibilities for me. One other good thing about another kobold around the core arena is everyone seems to love killing them, although I don't see why? :) |
| Caterane01-30-04, 04:28 AM | @Tharkos: Ok, sorry then. Thought you wanted to start another campaign against my mount. I get paranoiac in my old days. @Rayne: I`m glad to hear that. You can start modding right now and collect credits while you plan your second kobold. @Mods: I noticed that recently many mods post spoilers on the board. When I read about 146 damage I knew the Harvester won which raised my mirth but spoiled the reading. There were many other examples like "First round Zorander!!" where an archer fought a mage, and so on. Please stop this, or if you want to write something then make sure you don`t give away anything. |
| ^Rayne^01-30-04, 05:35 AM | I already started Vryk's sheet and he is halfway on his road to being finished up! I couldn't wait. Once I get an idea for a PC I like I get started on it right away. The concept for this one came fairly quickly and I think he will be equally fun to play both in battles and from a roleplaying standpoint. |
| Moherajikuyx01-30-04, 05:38 AM | I think the Master of Dwarves goes to Spike. I mean, Market_Share :D Spoilers - yes they HAVE to be announced before writing them. They're terrible. hooves - come on... This is magic. They adapt because they're magical, and the rules say so. Probably magic horseshoes don't need nails. Or maybe you nail it to a talon, and they adapt themselves to the talon, who knows. It's exactly the don't-use-logic-with-magic thingie. We're going to stop using impr. evasion coz hey, how the hell one rogue out of 20 is going to survive an atomic bomb... Kelek vs. johan, ok. Now let's think about the darn skeleton. What the heck can a monk do... I modded Brackin last week and I have no clue yet... Mh. |
| Caterane01-30-04, 05:45 AM | Can Nightingale use Boots of speed? It`s just clicking the boots together - a simple order - and the haste effect is activated. Muahahahahhaa 120ft fly speed |
| Tharkos01-30-04, 06:13 AM | Originally posted by Jindl Bah! Rito Maya is the Core Arena Loser. He's got more losses than anyone. He's not exactly optimized. I already issued a "challenge" to Mo for that title of most losses, Laness already got her title of worst win:loss ratio ... :king: Originally posted by Caterane @Tharkos: Ok, sorry then. Thought you wanted to start another campaign against my mount. I get paranoiac in my old days. Dont talk to me about "old" ... at least not while youre younger than I am, hehe ... :D Originally posted by sshuit so things like, pegasi, unicorns, horses, ponies and other animals whose attack type says HOOF. would be a good start. Unicorns and Pegasi arent exactly Animals so they would be excluded in the same way a Nightmare would ... :teach: |
| Jindl01-30-04, 08:23 AM | Ouch, that quote looks pretty mean without the following sentence... "Bah! Rito Maya is the Core Arena Loser. He's got more losses than anyone. He's not exactly optimized. He's also everyone's favorite PC. I'm glad Mo still keeps him around. He's a great character." BTW: Tactics received for everyone :D FYI: :bow: Unscathed winners Iron the Panza, Moherajikuyx: 6 wins in a row! Alathar Vierce, Alathar Vierce: 5 wins in a row! Jindl, Jindl: 5 wins in a row! (Levels 5,6,7,8+9) And Smushy is now 4-0, could be the next Alathar Vierce, er, I mean the next Iron the Panza ... |
| Tellish_of_Ket01-30-04, 09:33 AM | All my tactics have now been sent. Have fun mods. :) I've recieved tactics from Rito, Jagath, Sir Roger, Grym and Delynal. Tellish |
| cellardweller01-30-04, 09:42 AM | Originally posted by Jindl And Smushy is now 4-0, could be the next Alathar Vierce, er, I mean the next Iron the Panza ... Shhhh! You'll jinxed her! I haven't given Smushy more than a 50/50 chance in all of her fights so far - the odds will catch up soon. |
| Magagumo01-30-04, 09:42 AM | Tactics will be sent this afternoon, fights will be run Friday and Sunday (tomorrow is contiution of my arena and my campaign). BTW, 14th lvl Bruno lost to a 15th level-equiv part-fiend, part-red dragon, dwarven barbarian.... I forgot he was Greater Invisible... *rolls eyes* Ah well, the NPCs were supposed to lose anyways :-P |
| SnarkHunter01-30-04, 11:19 AM | Well I should hope my 14th level Bilo will do a bit better, aye what? Anywho, Illene vs. HArvester is up right here, my dizzy-iz-ogs. (http://boards1.wizards.com/editpost.php?s=&action=editpost&postid=2452016) Word. |
| Moherajikuyx01-30-04, 11:21 AM | Hehe, kedi a sneaky halfling sneakies in the arena: ToK, do you want to fight? Anyone wants to moderate? |
| Ethendril01-30-04, 11:59 AM | Laness vs. Pale-Rider posted. AS REQUESTED ABOVE, THERE WILL BE NO SPOILERS (good request, btw). Feedback welcome. -Ethendril |
| barrel_master01-30-04, 12:05 PM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx OK! Barrel, Octavian was luckily in an odd level! He's against Nevrlok, and Mag got the requested fight! :) Also, Delynal-Grym added, and ToK, who got the fight above, moderates... Seems things... Evened out :) Uff... The roster keeping is hard, but satisfying. How expititious of you. |
| KerlanRayne01-30-04, 12:16 PM | @Mo: WOW! Kedi must be really good at hiding. The link next to his name on the roster leads to a post about an NPC throwing greatswords at people. ;) KerlanRayne |
| Caterane01-30-04, 12:41 PM | Excerpt from Rosella`s tactics: I do think that he did not notice that the damage reduction is +10/magic! For the record, Ilene's bow IS magical and therefore those potions won't do a single thing! (I think he'll have to learn this the hard way, but this is considered a lesson after all) :angel: It is time to give him a lesson on how to treat a lady, I won't let him hurt Laness again. Can you please post your arena record again? :D Edit: *LOOOLOLOLOL* @all: Please go to the roleplay thread and read Snark`s post. Too funny Edit2: Tactics sent for all four characters. Tactics received for Babar, Dusk, Drakiel, Sintius, and half a dozen from Hurtz. The Elder apparently takes an extended nap... I will run all fights on saturday. |
| kedi01-30-04, 01:41 PM | Originally posted by KerlanRayne @Mo: WOW! Kedi must be really good at hiding. The link next to his name on the roster leads to a post about an NPC throwing greatswords at people. ;) KerlanRayne I prefer throwing darts on people, not greatswords, they are really big for a halfling like me ;) <<here>> (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2451965#post2451965) is the true link to my PC. :D The bard has sung! |
| Caterane01-30-04, 02:46 PM | Harr, if that would`ve been a critical I would`ve beaten Bonanza @lvl 4!!! |
| SnarkHunter01-30-04, 02:49 PM | Hi Kedi! Welcome to the boards. Just FYI weapon finesse applies to all finessable weapons not just one any more. You also spent 38 points on stats instead of 36. Oh Cat, for future reference I think the word you mean is 'adapt'. Not the NPC spell casting class you orriginaly refered too. Edit: Hey cat if your the arena bard can I be the jester? mmm mmm? |
| kedi01-30-04, 02:58 PM | Originally posted by SnarkHunter Hi Kedi! Welcome to the boards. Just FYI weapon finesse applies to all finessable weapons not just one any more. You also spent 38 points on stats instead of 36. Umm, I didn't actually, If you read the abilities carefully, I made a little mistake by posting that I've spent 8 points on 14str, actually I spend 6. I edited it, thx for pointing me it :) Btw, to where should I post /send my tactics? :D The bard has sung! |
| Ethendril01-30-04, 03:20 PM | Rapier is a weapon which can benefit weapon finesse Right, he was just saying you can use rapier, whip, spiked chain, etc., all with the same feat, rather than just one weapon (rapier). -Ethendril EDIT: @Kedi: Just send your tactics to whoever's moderating your fight. Look at the pairings and it will indicate who. Above that is the email address for all moderators. Just send it there. |
| kattattack2201-30-04, 03:29 PM | @Kedi - ooo, an evil PC how awesome. I really like your character quote, very nice. |
| Jindl01-30-04, 03:39 PM | @Kedi - Snark was just saying that it isn't necessary to pick a weapon for the weapon finesse feat. It will apply to all finessable weapons (including rapiers). As for your next fight, the next round of pairings will be next Wed. At that time, Mo will pair you up with a random opponent (or you may challenge one) and the fight will be set, a moderator assigned, and your tactics will then be due by next Friday. And btw (this is for all the new people) Welcome to the Arena :D -Jindl @Cat, Snark, + sshuit - tactics for my guys will be sent tonight... (working overtime stinks :( ) |
| Caterane01-30-04, 04:36 PM | I forewarned my DM that next session Vandaeris spends all his second level slots on extended False lifes which he forbid. I sent him your arguments and he answered me. I think that might settle the issue. Here are the arguments from the three participating people. Magagumo: 1st- False Life can stack because it is not giving a named bonus or penalty (Enhancements from the buff spells, or Ray of Enfeeblement) but is instead simply granting you temporary hps which last for a given amount of time. In the same way that one could have multiple guidances running. It doesn't matter if the spell has the same name, it just matters what kind of effect it has. Hps generally can stack, as multiple Vampiric Touches can gain you a block of temporary hp. I'd most definetely say they stack, Cat, as the PHB specifically says that only spells that "provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes [read: Physical and Mental Stats] do not stack with themselves]" I suppose hp's could be read as an attribute, but I'm not sure. Aid could theoretically stack with itself for temp hp, but it only lasts minutes, and is based off of a compulsion effect... *shrugs* Jindl: Please show me the rule that says they don't. AFAIK, there is no rule in 3.5 that says multiple castings of unnamed bonuses don't stack. That's what makes the evil Awaken trick possible. The bonus is unnamed. The temporary hps are also an unnamed bonus. BTW: Dodge bonuses always stack with each other. So, um, multiple Haste spells do stack the dodge bonuses to AC. Actually the dodge bonuses from multiple Haste spells don't stack, because it is a bonus to AC. Thanks, Magagumo for pointing that out to me I'll be happy to change the sheet and stuff, providing you can show me the rule where it says temp. hps don't stack. Tharkos:False life stacks with itself because its an "unnamed" bonus, but in the end it balances out for the arena since the slots you have to spend for this extra life arent available in the arena fight, not even if the total duration of the (extended) False Life would be greater than 24 hours. Ok and here`s his answer. I translated it into english. . I posted the original mail in german below for those who can understand it. First, you have to distinguish between two definitions: EFFECT is not BONUS. A spell has at least one effect. The effect of a spell may be a bonus (or something else). OK? Let`s go on. Now we check PHB (SRD) p.172 on top: [i]Different bonus names: The bonuses or penalties from two different spells stack if the modifiers are of different types. The prerequisite that boni stack are: 1. different types 2. different spells That two different boni stack is written a page before that so I think they wrote "two different spells" on purpose Let`s read on: Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths: In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the best one applies. Since we know that a bonus is an EFFECT it is obvious that the statements above are wrong. It doesn`t matter if the boni stack because the EFFECT doesn`t stack (2xhaste: not faster, 2xlight: not brighter, 2xdarkness: not darker) --> 2xFalse life: not more hp, because only the highest effect counts: in this case the highest temporary hp. Now I`m going to tear apart the arguments above: 1st- False Life can stack because it is not giving a named bonus.... ...which doesn`t matter because it`s the same EFFECT It doesn't matter if the spell has the same name Oooh yes, it does because behind this is the same effect it just matters what kind of effect it has. Right. And it`s the same effect. Because "kind" = different or same Hps generally can stack, Right. as multiple Vampiric Touches can gain you a block of temporary hp. but in this case you get the damage as bonus. Example: 1st touch: 10 damage --> 10 temp hp 2nd touch: 12 damage --> 12 temp hp (together 22 hp from the same EFFECT) --> temp +22 hp and NOT temp +10 PLUS temp +12. But the bonus from EFFECT increases. That`s why it works. I'd most definetely say they stack, Cat, as the PHB specifically says that only spells that "provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes [read: Physical and Mental Stats] do not stack with themselves]" That`s 1. splitting hairs 2. irrelevant I suppose hp's could be read as an attribute Oh wisdom, good bye. Next please. Please show me the rule that says they don't. AFAIK, there is no rule in 3.5 that says multiple castings of unnamed bonuses don't stack. *cough* see above. You don`t cast boni but effects. There`s a rule that explicitely says it. The temporary hps are also an unnamed bonus. BTW: Dodge bonuses always stack with each other. So, um, multiple Haste spells do stack the dodge bonuses to AC. Actually the dodge bonuses from multiple Haste spells don't stack, because it is a bonus to AC. Thanks, Magagumo for pointing that out to me Huh? If if it would not go to AC it would stack? Why? I'll be happy to change the sheet and stuff, providing you can show me the rule where it says temp. hps don't stack Wrong argument. Temp. Hp stack ...IF they come from different EFFECTS. And even if I could not read, there`s one convincing argument: BALANCE. Some other notes: Why does damage from fireball, Vampiric touch, etc stack? Instantaneous Effects: Two or more spells with instantaneous durations work cumulatively when they affect the same target. That`s the reason why Ray of enfeeblement doesn`t stack. Same effect but not instant. BTW: Ray of enfeeblement is an unnamed bonus, too and doesn`t stack --> same with False life. So? Sepp |
| Caterane01-30-04, 04:38 PM | Here`s the mail in german for those of you who can read it. eMail from Jay Sunn So'n haufen :censored::censored::censored::censored: :censored::censored::censored::censored: . Mann, mann. Also erstmal muss man hier 'n bisschen die Begriffe unterscheiden. EFFEKT ungleich BONUS ! (gaaaaanz wichtig) Ein Spell hat mindestens einen Effekt. Der Effekt eines Spells kann ein Bonus sein.(oder sonstwas anderes) OK? Gut, weiter. Jetzt lesen wir mal 's PHB (SRD).... ah ja 172 oben: Different Bonus Names: The bonuses or penalties from two different spells stack if the modifiers are of different types. Also sind die Bedingungen, damit Boni stacken: 1. Verschiedene Types 2. verschiedene Spells. (Ich hätte sogar "Effects" geschrieben statt "spells". Aber in dem Kapitel geht's halt nur um Spells) Das verschiedene Boni stacken wird 'ne Seite vorher schon beschrieben, also denke ich, dass das "two different spells" wohl bedacht dahingeschrieben worden ist. Aber lesen wir weiter.... Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths: In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the best one applies. Da wir ja wissen, dass ein Bonus ein EFFEKT ist, wird wohl klar, dass sich hier paar Leute total verrannt haben. Denn egal ob die Boni stacken würden, der Effekt stackt nicht. (2xhaste: nicht schneller, 2xlight: nicht heller, 2xdarkness: nicht dunkler). ->2xFalseLife: nicht mehr HP, denn nur der höchste EFFEKT zählt: höchste TempHP. Da macht auch das oben mit "from two different spells" Sinn, denn gleiche Effekte stacken ja eh nicht. So, und jetzt nehm ich noch die Argumentationen auseinander: <<<< 1st- False Life can stack because it is not giving a named bonus.... was wurscht ist, denn der EFFEKT ist der gleiche <<<< It doesn't matter if the spell has the same name Oooh doch, denn dahinter verbirgt sich, ob es der selbe EFFEKT ist oder nicht. <<<< , it just matters what kind of effect it has. RICHTIG. Und es ist der selbe EFFEKT. Denn "kind" = same or different ! <<<< Hps generally can stack, Richtig <<<< as multiple Vampiric Touches can gain you a block of temporary hp. da bekommt man aber den Schaden den man macht als Bonus. Beispiel: 1. Touch: 10 Schaden -> TempHP+10 2. Touch: 12 Schaden (insgesamt also 22 vom gleichen EFFEKT) -> TempHP+22 und NICHT TempHP+10 vom ersten PLUS TempHP+12 vom zweiten. Aber der Bonus vom EFFEKT erhöht sich. Deswegen funktionierts. <<<< I'd most definetely say they stack, Cat, as the PHB specifically says that only spells that "provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes [read: Physical and Mental Stats] do not stack with themselves]" Also wer hinterfrägt ob HP ein Attribut ist oder nicht, dem hau ich gerne eins auf's Maul. 1. Haarspalterscheisse. 2. Irrelevant. <<<< I suppose hp's could be read as an attribute Oh, Weisheit ahoi. Da hat aber einer Glück gehabt. Next, please. <<<< Please show me the rule that says they don't. AFAIK, there is no rule in 3.5 that says multiple castings of unnamed bonuses don't stack. *Hust* siehe oben: Boni werden nicht gecasted, sonder Effekte. Und da gibt es eine Regel die genau das besagt. <<<< That's what makes the evil Awaken trick possible The bonus is unnamed. ??? <<<< The temporary hps are also an unnamed bonus. BTW: Dodge bonuses always stack with each other. So, um, multiple Haste spells do stack the dodge bonuses to AC. Actually the dodge bonuses from multiple Haste spells don't stack, because it is a bonus to AC. Thanks, Magagumo for pointing that out to me Hä? Und wenn's NICHT auf AC gegangen wäre hätt's gestacked, oder was? Wieso denn das jetzt? Da komm ich leider grad nicht hinterher. <<<< I'll be happy to change the sheet and stuff, providing you can show me the rule where it says temp. hps don't stack. Falsches Argument. TempHP stacken. WENN sie von verschiedenen EFFEKTEN kommen. Auch wenn ich nicht lesen könnte, hätte ich immernoch ein schlagkräftiges Argument: Balance Na? Also: Nur wenn's unterschiedliche Effekte(Spells) sind, wird gekuckt ob die Boni stacken. Wenn jetzt einer kommt und sagt: Warum stacked dann der Schaden von Fireball,VampTouch etc. (gleicher Effekt): Instantaneous Effects: Two or more spells with instantaneous durations work cumulatively when they affect the same target. Deswegen stacked ja RayOfEnfeeblement nicht. -> Gleicher Effekt, aber nicht Instant. Und RayOfEnfeeblement hat auch keinen Bonus(Penalty)-Type und stacked nicht. -> Das ist das allerselbe wie FalseLife. |
| Ethendril01-30-04, 04:42 PM | After readying the Cateranian Theory in two different languages...I'm convinced. -Ethendril |
| Magagumo01-30-04, 04:58 PM | Nice job with the point-counterpoint Cat. If you notice, Bruno recently changed his False Life expenditure to only one on himself... because I realize you are correct. Vampiric Touch gives you temp hp and gives them a duration, but the spell's duration is instantaneous. When I pondered on Aid (which my party could abuse, otherwise, as they like to Planar Ally the angels whcih ahve the spell at will), I realized it is just like False Life. I'm throwin my hat into Cat's corner on this one, False Life cannot stack but only gives the best bonus of the two. As for the "hp= attribute" thing you commented on Cat, that was a joke :P. Don't think I actually meant that ^_^;; Tactics are almsot complete, Bruno's just fiished hs pondering :). Will run one fight tonight and tomorrw (Brackin v. Ebelin) and the Octavian v. Nevr fight on Sunday. |
| kedi01-30-04, 05:08 PM | Originally posted by kattattack22 @Kedi - ooo, an evil PC how awesome. I really like your character quote, very nice. :) thank you Originally posted by Jindl @Kedi - Snark was just saying that it isn't necessary to pick a weapon for the weapon finesse feat. It will apply to all finessable weapons (including rapiers). As for your next fight, the next round of pairings will be next Wed. At that time, Mo will pair you up with a random opponent (or you may challenge one) and the fight will be set, a moderator assigned, and your tactics will then be due by next Friday. And btw (this is for all the new people) Welcome to the Arena :D -Jindl @Cat, Snark, + sshuit - tactics for my guys will be sent tonight... (working overtime stinks :( ) :emberrass: I got it totally wrong then, and thx for the welcome! :D :D The bard has sung! |
| Tharkos01-30-04, 05:16 PM | Originally posted by "Caterane's DM" That`s the reason why Ray of enfeeblement doesn`t stack. Same effect but not instant. Ray of Enfeeblement doesnt stack because its a PENALTY and those dont stack with themselves. For bonuses its a little bit different. The text for both False life and Vampiric touch is the same: "You gain temporary hit points equal to XXX" so why is there a different "effect" ? Both have durations for the temporary hit points with the simple difference that FL has it in the spell data and VT hasnt. I dont see the difference there. You have also agreed in that Vampiric Touch hit points would stack. In any case PHB pg. 313 "stack": "In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack if they come from different sources and have different descriptors (or no descriptors at all), but do not stack if they have the same descriptors or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession)." I think this is the relevant rules text and we need to decide which one takes precedence: - stacks because its an unnamed bonus OR - doesnt stack because its the same spell cast twice. It is a confusing and badly written rule / spell again, so we need to decide ... both ways look equally valid, but if FL doesnt stack then VT wouldnt either IMO (at least for the hit points). Its time for a vote IMO. EDIT: Note that the rules text quoted above is for modifiers to checks and rolls and doesnt exactly apply to "non-rolled stuff" like temporary hit points. Its an overlooked area of the rules IMO and thus we need to have that vote ... P.S.: I am going to bump Laness for the third consecutive loss btw ... |
| Arstimis01-30-04, 05:42 PM | @sshuit: Tactics sent for Arstimis Only thing to do is pray for lucky high rolls |
| Tharkos01-30-04, 05:49 PM | One other thing concerning False Life stacking: Since it has a duration it is subject to Dispel Magic and that is the vulnerability of a large amount of it in addition to the lost spell slots. |
| ^Rayne^01-30-04, 06:02 PM | kedi I like your PC but I did notice a flaw with it the others haven't pointed out yet. Grapple = BAB + Str + Special Size modifier... You have your Grapple = +2 but really it should be +0 Here is the quick math for it. Grapple for Kedi= 0 (+2 BAB, +2 Str, -4 Size modifier halfling) I noticed that little mistake right off because I've been making kobold PC's and this is one of the BIG drawbacks of being small in an arena of grapplers! ;) |
| ^Rayne^01-30-04, 06:06 PM | Moherajikuyx, I would like to begin moderating one game a week starting next week so that I may add one more kobold to my Arena Contender Squad. ;) Besides that I think it would be fun to take charge of one match a week. If there is anything I need to know besides declaring my interest in moderating let me know. :) Rayne |
| Tharkos01-30-04, 06:08 PM | Arggghhh ... I feel like the Arena is slowly transforming into the Dragon Mountain module with people wanting to play Kobolds. |
| ^Rayne^01-30-04, 06:17 PM | ^Umm are you joking around? Cause I've been told my kobold PC is the only active one currently in the Arena and adding a second hardly makes this a 'Dragon Mountain module'. I just like the little guys and one thing is for sure they certainly are not a powerful or threatening race. That's why their CR rating is a 1/4 in the Monster Manual. |
| sshuit01-30-04, 06:35 PM | Coralias vs Oetzi is going up now! elf vs elf. ranger vs ranger. WHO WILL WIN!?!?!?! |
| kattattack2201-30-04, 07:24 PM | I just like the little guys and one thing is for sure they certainly are not a powerful or threatening race. That's why their CR rating is a 1/4 in the Monster Manual. hmm, I don't know. In my many browsings of the D&D forums I have read about amazing kobold ambushes that nearly result in TPK's. Monsters played well that is what truly determines the CR. I would never underestimate a kobold, but my characters might. |
| ^Rayne^01-30-04, 07:38 PM | ^ The key word is ambushes... A single kobold, as is the case for these arena battles, is not the same monster without his swarming companions. Also by stats alone -4 str, +2 dex, and -2 con... They get a negative -4 stat penalty overall to stats that are essential to any player race and just about every class I can think of. For this huge penalty they get Darkvision and a 30' movement speed as compensation. Hardly worth the tradeoff, as many races get darkvision without near as steep a penalty and have a lot more bonuses. Just look at dwarfs for example to see this theory played out. They get tons more valuable bonuses, Darkvision 20' speed all the time regardless of what they wear armor wise and a slew of special goodies and not cumulative stat penalty. I for one don't believe for a second that a kobold is a seriously threatening race unless they have extreme numbers and any race could prove to be a big problem if they have numbers on a party. |
| Tellish_of_Ket01-30-04, 08:37 PM | Hide from Animals: Animals cannot see, hear, or smell the warded creatures. Even extraordinary or supernatural sensory capabilities.... ...or attacks ANY creature, even with a spell, the spell ends for all recipients. Although it didn't have any effect in the fight, i noticed you had the horse "scent" out the player who had hide from animals up, which it would not be able to do if the player was still warded. However, the player was no longer warded because he attacked something, namely the opponent). Just thought you'd like to know that for future reference. @Jindl: Yeah, i'm working overtime too. After seeing the roster and i only had one fight and one PC, i called in to the supervisor and made myself available for overtime this weekend. Just my luck 6hrs later i have 3 fights to mod and 3 pc's to do very detailed tactics for. I see myself being glued to my computer this weekend while not working trying to get everytyhing done. If someone wishes to moderate Silencius vs Kedi, i'd be happy to write up yet a FOURTH set of tactics. @False Life advocates: Give it a rest. They don't stack. Please lets not turn this into a loop-hole finding quest. (right MB? +40 hider you sneaky guy.) Tellish |
| Ethendril01-30-04, 09:05 PM | If someone wishes to moderate Silencius vs Kedi, i'd be happy to write up yet a FOURTH set of tactics. I'll do it if both parties want to go this week. I like the credits. -Ethendril |
| Jindl01-30-04, 10:04 PM | Grimlock vs Voliana posted. Tactics sent for the Elder and the Ghost. @Snark - I'll get Jindl's tactics to you soon... -Jindl |
| Tellish_of_Ket01-30-04, 10:17 PM | As it was expected, a very bloody battle. @Ethendril, thx. I'll write up some tacitcs tonight while i'm at work. I'll have them for ya in the morning. @Voliana, very nice. VERY NICE. I didn't know there was a sneak-thief already. Hmmm! Tellish |
| Sir Cridion01-30-04, 10:22 PM | @Tellish: Thanks for running the fight. There's something I'd like to point out though that might have had a big impact on the fight... Delynal has the Diehard feat, which means that he would have stayed conscious and probably would have retreated and healed before coming back to fight or would have given Grym another knock on the head - this might have had a significant impact on the outcome. Thanks edit: lol, 5 minutes after the fight is posted... what timing... editx2: Sorry... not to sound really nitpicky, but divine favour would hav given Delynal +2 damage, which would have brought Grym down to -1... |
| Caterane01-30-04, 10:23 PM | Just came home. Tactics received for the Elder. He cast the second False life prebuff on Bubo now that the issue is clear and settled. I`ll run the fights when I wake up. Good night. |
| Tharkos01-30-04, 10:58 PM | Originally posted by Caterane He cast the second False life prebuff on Bubo now that the issue is clear and settled. How come YOU always decide when an issue is settled ? Your DM may be right, but unless you can quote the rules and show us where it is written that he is right it may just as well be wrong. I did quote the rules for stacking above and in my view they a) dont really apply and b) are inconclusive, so we must choose which way to follow ... |
| Ethendril01-30-04, 11:24 PM | @Kedi: Just in case you missed the earlier post (it was in with a lot of other stuff), here's your challenge: If someone wishes to moderate Silencius vs Kedi, i'd be happy to write up yet a FOURTH set of tactics. If you want to write up some tactics and email them to me, it looks like Silencius wants to challenge you. -Ethendril |
| sshuit01-30-04, 11:33 PM | @Jindl Thanks for running the fight :-) turned out about as well as I expected. I'm going to have to find an invisible cohort to help me flank methinks :-) I also probably would have drank a potion or 2 of his once I was at 7 HP rather than trying to steal another one. Wouldn't have affected the final outcome though.... @ToK thanks also. Her record isn't so impressive though, uncanny dodge is proving to be a thorn in her side, sshuit Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket @Voliana, very nice. VERY NICE. I didn't know there was a sneak-thief already. Hmmm! |
| KerlanRayne01-31-04, 03:53 AM | Originally posted by Sir Cridion Sorry... not to sound really nitpicky, but divine favour would hav given Delynal +2 damage, which would have brought Grym down to -1... Huh? You wouldn't get +2 until caster level 6. It's +1 per three levels. Not +1 with an additional +1 per three levels. KerlanRayne |
| Tharkos01-31-04, 04:45 AM | The more I think about the False Life issue I come to the conclusion that Caterane and his DM are both right AND wrong. They are correct in that False Life doesnt stack with itself, but they are wrong in that Vampiric Touch does. The main confusing point for me was the fact that temporary hit points have nothing to do with any "bonuses", but are of the "gain temporary hit points effect" type. False Life and Vampiric Touch both use the same phrase "you gain temporary hit points equal to ..." and thus they share the same effect. Aid doesnt use the same words, but I would put it in the same drawer as well. Thus the relevant rules text is on pg. 172 in the PHB in the Same Effect more than once in Different Strengths part. That text says that only the strongest effect works of similar effects. Since all three "gain temporary hit points"-Effect spells use the same wording they wont stack and only the strongest effect works at one time. This might sound like it solves the problem, but it isnt really that simple: False Life Take a 10th level Sorceror with 30 hit points who has cast False Life 3 times for 13, 15 and 17 hit points. He would have 47 hit points due to the strongest False Life effect. If he takes 17+ points of damage the 15 hit points effect would "take over" because False Life lasts "until it is discharged" (i.e. hit points used up). Thus it IS possible to stack False Life ... sort of, because secondary and tertiary effects are just "sleeping" until the stronger effect fades. Vampiric Touch Vampiric Touch has the same limitation as False Life in that its effect of "gain temporary hit points" doesnt stack with itself, BUT the duration of that effect is FIXED at 1 hour ... "The temporary hit points disappear 1 hour later." Sleeping effects wont take over until that duration runs out (or it gets dispelled ...). Aid This spell has also a fixed duration for all of its effects: 1 minute/level and thus "sleeping effects" wont take over until the duration runs out like Vampiric Touch. In the end False Life still stacks, but it doesnt increase the total hit points, which might be important for such spells as "Power Word XXX". The only question is how fast these sleeping effects take over ... is it instantaneous or does it take longer than that ? That might be something to vote on, but everything else is clearly handled by the rules. The duration makes False Life much more useful than the other two because it does stack in the end. The same issue would apply to multiple "Prtection from Energy (Fire)" spells cast on you, they dont stack, but the sleeping effect awakens when the first one runs out. |
| Tharkos01-31-04, 04:55 AM | Casting Vampiric Touch would essentially screw your multiple False Life effects for an hour in effect (unless you plan on dispelling it yourself) due to that fixed duration and the probably higher number of temporary hit points gained. The speed question: If that 10th level Sorceror with 30 hit points and 17 (15, 13) temporary hit points was hit with an attack for 25 damage, would he loose all of those from his temporary hit points effects OR would he loose 17 from the first "ThpE" and 8 "real" hit points ? This is the question we need to settle through a vote, because I dont think there is a rule for this eventuality ... |
| Hatzinger01-31-04, 06:04 AM | @ sshuit please read the description of "hide from animals" again for future uses. PHB p241: "Even extrordinary or supernatural sensory capabilities, such as blindsense, blindsight, scent, and tremorsense, cannot detect or locate warded creatures. Animals simply act as though the warded creatures are not there." And how can he draw both his weapons with one move action without having the quick draw feat? Is that possible? And i wanted to increase the distance while drinking the potion in the first round. apart from this: thanks for the good rolls.:D |
| Caterane01-31-04, 06:53 AM | Posted by Tharkos: The text for both False life and Vampiric touch is the same: "You gain temporary hit points equal to XXX" so why is there a different "effect" ? It`s a different effect by definition. Granted, they give the same bonus but that`s not the main criteria. Both have durations for the temporary hit points with the simple difference that FL has it in the spell data and VT hasnt. I dont see the difference there. You have also agreed in that Vampiric Touch hit points would stack. No, Vampiric touch does NOT stack with itself. But if I do 10 damage with the 1st VT and 12 damage with the second then the same spell, source, effect, whatever has dealt 22 hp --> that`s why the bonus of the effect of VT is +22 temp.hp In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack if they come from different sources and have different descriptors (or no descriptors at all), but do not stack if they have the same descriptors or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession)." There is absolutely nothing confusing here. It`s clearly written. stack if they come from different sources and have different descriptors stacks IF (different source AND different descriptor) --> both must be fulfilled (true): different source and different descriptor not stack if they have the same descriptors or come from the same source does not stack IF (same descriptor OR same source) --> if only ONE is fulfilled (true) then it doesn`t stack. Originally posted by Tharkos: How come YOU always decide when an issue is settled ? Ethendril: After readying the Cateranian Theory in two different languages...I'm convinced. Magagumo: Nice job with the point-counterpoint Cat. If you notice, Bruno recently changed his False Life expenditure to only one on himself... because I realize you are correct. Tellish of Ket: @False Life advocates: Give it a rest. They don't stack. Please lets not turn this into a loop-hole finding quest. Jindl: Hey Cat - Since false life won't stack, just have one of them put on me and the other on Bubo (prebuffs). and myself of course. After my long post there was not a single person who didn`t agree - aside from you of course. |
| Caterane01-31-04, 07:25 AM | @Moderators: I have to grumble once again about the fights layout (as with the spoilers). Please put the character sheets and tactics BEFORE the fight. In the last fight I didn`t know who`s fighting who and with the name only I don`t know what kind of character it is. This is especially true for new and lower level chars. And even with high well-known gladiators I am not always up-to-date so I would like to check which level they took recently or in what they invested their new gold. Even better would be to quote the character sheet, and the tactics in another quote. Check my fights to see an example. I don`t want to pad my own shoulder but this is really far more clear than the last fights were. Cat |
| Tharkos01-31-04, 08:31 AM | Originally posted by Caterane It`s a different effect by definition. Granted, they give the same bonus but that`s not the main criteria. By definition ? The temporary hit point gain is the same effect for all three spells the same as a +2 morale bonus to your attacks from an 8th level Bard inspiring courage or a Heroism spell. They come from different sources, but modify the same stat/ability in the same way. The key point is that all these are EFFECTS as you so neatly pointed out in your post from your DM and all three spells (Aid, False Life and Vampiric Touch) let you gain temporary hit points. How can you say its a different effect when the wording is the same (for FL and VT) and they do the same thing ? Can you base that assumption on a rules text ? Come on ... prove it to me by the rules ... Originally posted by Caterane No, Vampiric touch does NOT stack with itself. But if I do 10 damage with the 1st VT and 12 damage with the second then the same spell, source, effect, whatever has dealt 22 hp --> that`s why the bonus of the effect of VT is +22 temp.hp That gaining of temporary hit points is the same effect, but at different strengths and thus PHB pg 172 kicks in and only the stronger one of these effects works. The strength of the Vampiric Touch effect has nothing to do with how many temporary hit points you have left from a successful touch. Example: - VT 1: 10 damage => 10 temporary hit points, - VT 2: 12 damage => 12 temporary hit points REPLACE the previous 10 because its the same effect with a different strength (PHB pg. 172). Its NOT +22 temporary hit points, although the damage caused stacks (since that part is instantaneous). The temporary hit points do have a duration of 1 hour which is even mentioned in the spell data. If someone damages you for 5 hit points while having 12 temporary hit points from VT you would have 7 temp hp left, BUT the strongest effect is still the one that gave you 12 hit points. Even if your precious 12 temporary hit points are lost the effect stays until that 1 hour duration is gone or it is dispelled. Originally posted by Caterane There is absolutely nothing confusing here. It`s clearly written. It also doesnt apply ... as I believe was mentioned in that post. Originally posted by Caterane stacks IF (different source AND different descriptor) --> both must be fulfilled (true): different source and different descriptor Again this DOES NOT APPLY because temporary hit points ARE NOT "modifiers to a given check or roll ". Originally posted by Caterane does not stack IF (same descriptor OR same source) --> if only ONE is fulfilled (true) then it doesn`t stack. I dont know where that quote you commented on comes from, but I guess its from a text which concerns itself with bonuses or so. The only relevant text is on pg. 172 in the PHB because temporary hit points - do NOT modify rolls or checks or whatever as stated above and - are NOT bonuses or bonus hit points. The only rules text which remains is the one I mentioned. Originally posted by Caterane and myself of course. After my long post there was not a single person who didn`t agree - aside from you of course. And was I wrong to disagree with you ? Nope, because your explanation was at least as faulty as mine and False Life can be cast several times and be useful. I strongly doubt that there was "not a single person who didn't agree - aside from me". Several people wrote they had changed their mind, but that was far from "everyone". This is your typical "I am right and all others are wrong" arrogance again and I really wish you would stop it. Again I need to remind you that this is a DISCUSSION BOARD and youre not the boss who says whats right. And again I must ask that you are a little more precise when posting in such a "rules-discussion" and add your sources for rules as well. If I am right you are a Student and at such a level of education you should know how to do a scientific argument and add your source for the quotes ... It just makes it easier to follow your argumentation and if you cant do that then your explanations are just "hearsay". |
| Jindl01-31-04, 08:41 AM | @Cat - Just to be clear, I still think that temporary hps stack. They always have in the past (and this technique has been used in 4 or 5 different fights by different pc's.) But, I also realize that it is Saturday morning, and debating this issue would delay my fight. So, I went ahead with the worst case scenario so that you could run the fight (much like Snark did last week, when he wrote tactics as if Nightingale was a fully acceptable mount). But to be clear, I still think that they stack. I think Tharkos is wrong on his interpretation as well. In a general overview of spells and effects, there are several things that do not stack: 1. Bonuses with the same name (with the exception of dodge bonuses). 2. Size increases (but only because the spell descriptions specifically say this.) 3. Penalties with the same name (see #1). 4. Protection from energy and resist elements (because the spell description specifically says so.) Nowhere, in any spell description, does it say that temporary hps don't stack. Since the normal function would be to stack them, there would need to be a clear rule that says they do not. What you and your DM have posted appears to be a way of interpreting the rules so that they do not stack. But, it is not a clear rule, it is an interpretation of a vague guideline. I don't really know if the temporary hps should stack or not, but I do know that there isn't a clear rule against it, and that they have always stacked in arena fights in the past. That's why I assumed they would continue to operate that way. But, rather than descending into a long, multi page discussion with the risk of upsetting anyone, why don't we drop the matter and let Mo post it on the polls thread? A simple vote should decide the issue. -Jindl |
| sshuit01-31-04, 09:32 AM | Hi there everyone. Question for you. Short question : Does a monk's Ki strike ability allow the possibility of damaging an incorporeal opponent. I thought that it did since Incorporeality states ...can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, +1 or better magic weapons, spells, spell-like effects of supernatural effects and the monk's ki strike is listed as Ki Strike (Su) -> with the SU designating a supernatural power. can someone clarify? sshuit |
| sshuit01-31-04, 09:42 AM | 1. Hide from animals : I did it wrong, but there's something else you should know. Hide from animals says PHB241:If a warded character touches an animal or attacks any creature, even with a spell the spell ends for all recipients. So as soon as you fire an arrow at Coralias it ends your hide from animals. And the horse would have been able to see you and attack you anyways. 2. Drawing 2 weapons : PHB page 141 Draw a weapon , move equivalent action, footnote #4 "If you have a BAB of +1 or higher you can combine one of these actions with a regular move. If you have the two weapon fighting feat you can draw two light or one handed weapons in the time it would normally take you to draw one." So he used a MEV to draw 2 weapons. If he had quick draw he could draw 2 weapons as a free action! 3. Drinking potion/moving. : You had to draw the potion (move equivalent action) and then drink it (std action) you had no actions left to move again. sshuit P.S. No problem on the good rolls. You were both very well matched. Originally posted by Hatzinger @ sshuit please read the description of "hide from animals" again for future uses. PHB p241: "Even extrordinary or supernatural sensory capabilities, such as blindsense, blindsight, scent, and tremorsense, cannot detect or locate warded creatures. Animals simply act as though the warded creatures are not there." And how can he draw both his weapons with one move action without having the quick draw feat? Is that possible? And i wanted to increase the distance while drinking the potion in the first round. apart from this: thanks for the good rolls.:D |
| Jindl01-31-04, 09:58 AM | Originally posted by sshuit Hi there everyone. Question for you. Short question : Does a monk's Ki strike ability allow the possibility of damaging an incorporeal opponent. sshuit and I were discussing this via email, and we wanted to get other peoples thoughts. My response was that Ghosts are affected by damage dealing supernaturals (like dragon breath, an archmage's arcane fire, and an arrowhawks electricity ray), but that Ki strike only helps a monk bypass damage reduction, so that it is useless against a ghost (who has no DR). Another way of looking at it ... if the monk had an effect making his fists into ghost touch weapons, then he could bypass any DR/magic which the ghost posessed (perhaps it is a ghost dragon who still has his DR from being a dragon.) But, without his fists actually being magic weapons, the monk can't hit the ghost. Ki strike only treats them like magic weapons for bypassing DR. from the SRD Ki Strike (Su): At 4th level, a monk’s unarmed attacks are empowered with ki. Her unarmed attacks are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction. Ki strike improves with the character’s monk level. At 10th level, her unarmed attacks are also treated as lawful weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction. At 16th level, her unarmed attacks are treated as adamantine weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction and bypassing hardness. What do you guys think? -Jindl |
| SnarkHunter01-31-04, 10:26 AM | Yeah I'm pretty sure a monk would have to get the terribly overpriced amulet in the DMG to hit an incorporeal critter. Also I've noticed this in a few peoples tactics so I feel it important to reiterate: Potions are not weapon like objects! You can not combine drawing them with your normal move. If you want to draw and drink a potion in a single round your movement will be 5ft or less. My inclination on the temp hp thing is that the falselifes would not stack with themselves but they would with a vampiric touch/aid/bard song. I don't have anything to back that up with right now and I'm a little tired to read everyones argument....but yeah. |
| sshuit01-31-04, 10:30 AM | @jindl : I understand that the Ki strike ability does not make the monk's hands into magic weapons, only that they are treated as such for bypassing DR, which incorporeality is not. I agree with everything you've said except for the fact that Incorporeality specifically states that it is also vulnerable to supernatural attacks also (type SU) and the monk's ki strike is type SU. So you'd also be vulnerable to (SU) attacks like dragon's breath, paladin't smite, or any other attacks with (SU) type. I'd like to get some kind of ruling before I run the fight. honestly I don't think it will matter in this fight, but it does affect the strength of the build quite a bit. Other opinions please! sshuit |
| Jindl01-31-04, 10:35 AM | The silly thing is that Kiowen could have spent 50 gp on an oil of magic weapon (or 25 gp on a scroll: magic weapon, since she is a wizard), then applied it to her fists, then viola ... Imagine, a 6th level character with no magic weapons, or means of making her weapons temparily magical. -Jindl |
| SnarkHunter01-31-04, 11:23 AM | I look at the (su) as a quality applied to the fists, not an actual supernatural attack. |
| Tellish_of_Ket01-31-04, 11:34 AM | Originally posted by Sir Cridion @Tellish: Thanks for running the fight. There's something I'd like to point out though that might have had a big impact on the fight... Delynal has the Diehard feat, which means that he would have stayed conscious and probably would have retreated and healed before coming back to fight or would have given Grym another knock on the head - this might have had a significant impact on the outcome. Thanks edit: lol, 5 minutes after the fight is posted... what timing... editx2: Sorry... not to sound really nitpicky, but divine favour would hav given Delynal +2 damage, which would have brought Grym down to -1... You are 100% correct, and i did err....temporarily. I reminded myself to edit it afterwards, but you actually failed your ride check again, and his to-hit was more than enough to down you. I meant to add it in, but got side-tracked and when i read it over, it completely slipped my mind. You also asked to not heal if victory looked to be in hand, and it did. At first i wasn't gonna meta-game it for ya, but the results were really obvious. His face was thoroughly smashed in, and you tried to take another swing, but failed the ride. It was supposed to read like that at the end, but dunno where my head was. In space i guess. I even left Silencius tactics at work this morning. Been working on it on/off throughout the shift and i go and leave them in my locker. Gotta go back to get them now for the Silencius fight, ugh! I just got off a 12-hour graveyard shift. Was hoping to crash and get some sleep. Back to work i go. Sorry if you feel you got jipped, but you didn't actually, it just reads that way. :D Tellish |
| Jindl01-31-04, 12:31 PM | Aiki Auk vs Ony Akerr is posted. I really like both these characters, and it was fun to run this low level match! -Jindl |
| Hatzinger01-31-04, 01:05 PM | Originally posted by sshuit 1. Hide from animals : I did it wrong, but there's something else you should know. Hide from animals says PHB241:If a warded character touches an animal or attacks any creature, even with a spell the spell ends for all recipients. So as soon as you fire an arrow at Coralias it ends your hide from animals. And the horse would have been able to see you and attack you anyways. 2. Drawing 2 weapons : PHB page 141 Draw a weapon , move equivalent action, footnote #4 "If you have a BAB of +1 or higher you can combine one of these actions with a regular move. If you have the two weapon fighting feat you can draw two light or one handed weapons in the time it would normally take you to draw one." So he used a MEV to draw 2 weapons. If he had quick draw he could draw 2 weapons as a free action! 3. Drinking potion/moving. : You had to draw the potion (move equivalent action) and then drink it (std action) you had no actions left to move again. sshuit P.S. No problem on the good rolls. You were both very well matched. ah. didn´t know that with the two weapons. thanks. but i think you misinterpreted the spell "hide from animals". When it talks about how attacking/touching an animal or any creature would end the spell, it means the targets of the spell. (Targets: one creature touched/level). In this case, Coralias has nothing to do at all with this spell, being no target of any effect. just my 0,05€ |
| kattattack2201-31-04, 01:08 PM | Aiki Auk vs Ony Akerr is posted. I really like both these characters, and it was fun to run this low level match! Wow! great fight! It was such a close battle. (EDIT: All fight spoilers removed, but both characters did fight well. Very sorry to spoil the fight for some. ) Jindl, awesome job as always. |
| ^Rayne^01-31-04, 01:09 PM | Jindl, great job on the battle of Ony and Aiki. I really liked reading it. kattattack22 good luck in future rounds. Maybe I'll see you there again some day. ;) |
| kattattack2201-31-04, 01:16 PM | kattattack22 good luck in the following rounds. Thank you and to you as well. Maybe I'll see you there again some day. I hope so. :) |
| Moherajikuyx01-31-04, 01:46 PM | SCUDISHSHSHH!!! A whip hits Kat's hands: please remove the fight conclusions from your previous post! Grr... I was longing to read that fight, you shouldn't waste the pleasure to others. Originally posted by Ethendril I'll do it if both parties want to go this week. I like the credits. -Ethendril Good! I'll add is asap. Originally posted by ^Rayne^ I would like to begin moderating Great! New moderator added! :) You'll begin with a lvl 2 match, next week. |
| Tellish_of_Ket01-31-04, 01:46 PM | done. I have to admit, i really found myself cheering in the Ony vs Aiki fight. Jindl did a great job directing and describing it. Even though it was a slug-fest, it was very enjoyable. @Ethendril: tactics for Silencius are sent. Jagath vs Sir Roger probably isn't as exciting, and i've gone back to the descriptive ways instead of the 'quotes' all the time. Cuts down on space and increases readability i think. Oh well, enjoy. Tellish |
| Magagumo01-31-04, 01:48 PM | False Life... Ok, here's what I am now thinking, False Life does not stack with itself directly, but does so indirectly. Here's how: Temporary hps are cumulative, so multiple Vampiric touches can rack up, and theoretically so could False Life. If this does not suit you, then consider Tharkos's suggestion that as one False Life's granted temp hps dissappear, the next one would step up to take the hits. Thusly, if one had three False lifes at 15 temp hp each, you would not be considered to have 45 bonus hp (vs. sleep or the Power Words) but as you take damage, the False Life's will swap back and forth until 45 pts of damage has been absorbed. Based on the recent discussions, does this seem like a decent summary? Re: Monk- Fascinating that monk's couldn't hit ghosts.. I would think ki strike would bypass that, as it seems unlikely that a class would be so utterly screwed by a creature subtype. I'd believe that the incorporeality text was not changed from 3.0, and since Monks in 3.0 gained a +1 weapon from ki strike, it should be assumed that ki srike (magic) would continue this tradition. After all, why are ghosts suddenly very good vs. monks? Consider that if you please :) |
| ^Rayne^01-31-04, 01:55 PM | Great! New moderator added! You'll begin with a lvl 2 match, next week. Moherajikuyx, that's great. Along with that may I post my second PC on the gladiator's thread then as well or do I have to wait till after I have moderated the match first? I've been busy building my second kobold while I waited to see Aiki's first arena fight. ;) |
| Jindl01-31-04, 02:02 PM | Originally posted by Magagumo Re: Monk- Fascinating that monk's couldn't hit ghosts.. I would think ki strike would bypass that, as it seems unlikely that a class would be so utterly screwed by a creature subtype. I'd believe that the incorporeality text was not changed from 3.0, and since Monks in 3.0 gained a +1 weapon from ki strike, it should be assumed that ki srike (magic) would continue this tradition. After all, why are ghosts suddenly very good vs. monks? Consider that if you please :) Mag - I happen to have a 3.0 PHB right here, and the old Ki strike reads as follows: "At 10th level, a monk's unarmed attack is empowered with ki. The unarmed strike damage from such an attack can deal damage to a creature with damage reduction, such as a wight, as if the blow were made with a weapon of +1 enhancement bonus. Ki strike improves as the monk gains experience, allowing her unarmed strikes at 13th level to deal damage against creatures with damage reduction as if it were made with a weapon with a +2 enhancement bonus, and at 16th level to deal damage against a creature with damage reduction as if it were made with a weapon with a +3 enhancement bonus." So, in 3.0 it still only allowed monks the ability to bypass DR. It did not make their unarmed attacks into actual magic weapons capable of striking incorporeal creatures. This is the same in 3.5. -Jindl |
| Moherajikuyx01-31-04, 02:15 PM | ^Rayne^ go on don't worry, but send me your email for the roster. *ghosts vs. monks* I'm with Jindl for once :) *aid stacking* mhh... I think it doesn't. If we allow the multiple instances of aid having their effect one after the other, it's actually a stacking. I think that a pc has only 1 pool of hps: so, the highest aid applies, all are there simultaneously, but when one gets hit all the simultaneous aids lose hps. |
| Jindl01-31-04, 02:25 PM | @ Mo - :D Actually, I think it is about the 4th time !! @ToK - So, um, would you say luck played any part in the Jagath vs Sir Roger fight?? -Jindl |
| kattattack2201-31-04, 02:41 PM | SCUDISHSHSHH!!! A whip hits Kat's hands: please remove the fight conclusions from your previous post! Grr... I was longing to read that fight, you shouldn't waste the pleasure to others. Oww! *rubbing hands* I apologize to everyone, I didn't mean to spoil the fight for others. I will be more careful in my future posts. |
| Jindl01-31-04, 03:28 PM | @Snark - Sorry for the delay. Tactics are finally sent for Jindl via PM (though it took me 2 hours to come up with them). Cat, the Harvester is one tough opponent to write tactics against. I'm gonna post a little RP on the appropriate thread now... -Jindl |
| Kaigan01-31-04, 03:37 PM | I have a questions, is it possible to delete my current character and then post a new one? and if so what would i have to do with the old one. |
| kattattack2201-31-04, 05:40 PM | Yes, I did that just this past week. I just edited the post that Lucius was on and put Ony in his place. |
| Sir Cridion01-31-04, 07:22 PM | Originally posted by KerlanRayne Huh? You wouldn't get +2 until caster level 6. It's +1 per three levels. Not +1 with an additional +1 per three levels. KerlanRayne My bad... :nonono: That was a stupid misinterpretation of mine. @Tellish: Alright, thanks for taking the time to clear that up. |
| Ethendril01-31-04, 07:26 PM | Tactics received from Silencius...still nothing from kedi. I probably won't run it until Monday, anyway. -Ethendril |
| Tharkos01-31-04, 08:02 PM | Originally posted by Jindl Nowhere, in any spell description, does it say that temporary hps don't stack. Since the normal function would be to stack them, there would need to be a clear rule that says they do not. What you and your DM have posted appears to be a way of interpreting the rules so that they do not stack. But, it is not a clear rule, it is an interpretation of a vague guideline. I don't really know if the temporary hps should stack or not, but I do know that there isn't a clear rule against it, and that they have always stacked in arena fights in the past. That's why I assumed they would continue to operate that way. But, rather than descending into a long, multi page discussion with the risk of upsetting anyone, why don't we drop the matter and let Mo post it on the polls thread? A simple vote should decide the issue. The rule for the "gain temporary hit points" EFFECTs not stacking is the one which I have quoted several times already, PHB pg. 172. It is the "correct" rule to apply to this problem because temporary hit points dont fit with most of the other stacking descriptions which are either talking about bonuses (which is a term all three spell descriptions dont mention at all when it comes to the hit points) or are talking about modifying rolls and checks. Thus the "general rule" for effects applies IMO. Caterane and his DM also make the mistake of not splitting Vampiric Touch into two separate effects, one has the duration of "instantaneous" (thats the dealing the damage effect) and the other has the duration of "1 hour" (thats the "life expectancy" of the temporary hit points effect). Thus it is easily explained why the DAMAGE (the instant part) of VT stacks (as damage ALWAYS does) and the temporary hit points (the 1 hour duration) dont. The split in durations is in the spell data, so this has to be treated the same as False Life and not as something different as Caterane says. Contrary to FL though that duration is fixed. Not stacking the temporary hit points isnt that big of a deal if you stick to False Life because the spell itself makes it possible to have the benefit of more than one casting. The big difference to letting them stack is the maximum number of hit points which a creature can get and the problem of timing for the activation of a "sleeping effect". That is the biggest question if you declare these effects non-stackable. |
| Arstimis01-31-04, 08:47 PM | The silly thing is that Kiowen could have spent 50 gp on an oil of magic weapon (or 25 gp on a scroll: magic weapon, since she is a wizard), then applied it to her fists, then viola ... First, Kiowen is a he, and second, yes i could do this, but it would put the monk class at a dissadvantage from the beginning, since i have to waste a round applying it. I understand that the Ki strike ability does not make the monk's hands into magic weapons, only that they are treated as such for bypassing DR, which incorporeality is not. I agree with everything you've said except for the fact that Incorporeality specifically states that it is also vulnerable to supernatural attacks also (type SU) and the monk's ki strike is type SU. So you'd also be vulnerable to (SU) attacks like dragon's breath, paladin't smite, or any other attacks with (SU) type. I'd like to get some kind of ruling before I run the fight. honestly I don't think it will matter in this fight, but it does affect the strength of the build quite a bit. Other opinions please! also, how can you disagree with that when it specifically states what the monks attack type is, and what incorppreality is vulnerable to. Other than that i agree with sshuit's last statement. Only thing i can do is pray for high rolls |
| KerlanRayne01-31-04, 09:01 PM | Originally posted by Arstimis Also, how can you disagree with that when it specifically states what the monks attack type is, and what incorppreality is vulnerable to. Other than that i agree with sshuit's last statement. Only thing i can do is pray for high rolls The way I read it is that the Monk has a [SU] ability that lets it's attacks bypass damage reduction. It does not have a [SU] attack that also bypasses damage reduction. There is a distinct difference there. KerlanRayne |
| Tellish_of_Ket01-31-04, 09:38 PM | @Jindl: Yeah, every once in a while i get those kinda fights. I remember doing a pair of Tomar Villir fights were it was much worse. I don't think Tomar rolled anything higher than a 9 in something like 15 rounds of combat. MUCH worse if you ask me. I guess every once in a while the odds catch up to someone. But i guess in some ppls case, they just keep getting haunted. @Ethendril: Can you re-send me my tacitcs? I forgot to save them and if he doesn't send in tactics by monday, more than likely i'll be using those tactics against my next opponent. thx. Tellish |
| Ethendril01-31-04, 10:10 PM | @Ethendril: Can you re-send me my tacitcs? I forgot to save them and if he doesn't send in tactics by monday, more than likely i'll be using those tactics against my next opponent. thx. @Tellish: I just sent those back. I'm wondering if kedi is just planning on checking back in for pairings next week, since he thought he would not have a fight this week. Anyway, if I don't get anything from him by Monday morning, I guess we can't run it. -Ethendril |
| Market_Share02-01-04, 08:15 AM | Hey hey. I tried a new way of doing things. I see most ppl have a style they moderate with. Well, this will be my style from here on end. I wracked my brain for a story and couldn't think of one, so i just winged it along. I'll start working on my second fight later today. SPIKE |
| MotherBast02-01-04, 09:21 AM | I have begun running Iron vs. Moon. It probably wont be posted today, as I have my D&D group at noon and a Superbowl party at 7, so it will probably be Monday afor it hits the boards. I promis to come up with a good storyline for this one, probably a tie-in with the Iron-Jindl, Skymoon-Harvy, Jindl-Harvy fights that have happened this and last week. |
| sshuit02-01-04, 12:13 PM | Okay.... so how do you know when it's a supernatural attack as well then? if (su) and then an attack type isn't enough to do it... how would the authors make it clear that an attack is supernatural in nature? I do understand what you're saying.. that the ability is supernatural but the attack itself isn't.... but that doesn't seem right to me either. I will probly run it later today with Ki strike not affecting incorporeal since that is the majority opinion but I'm in no way convinced. also @tok : Ouch ouch ouch. Roger didn't get full cover behind those big ole' rocks?.... and he is type plains?... I thought outsiders would be some other type but *shrug* good fight Jagath. Horizon walkers are cool sshuit Originally posted by KerlanRayne The way I read it is that the Monk has a [SU] ability that lets it's attacks bypass damage reduction. It does not have a [SU] attack that also bypasses damage reduction. There is a distinct difference there. KerlanRayne :D |
| Market_Share02-01-04, 12:40 PM | Ok, i'm done a fight. I just posted it...only trouble is i can't remember which one. HAHAHA After i posted/previewed i saw Cat posted his. So i read it and was completely enthralled by it. Wow...sir, you ARE da MAN! impressive writing. Anyhow, i just posted a fight. I think it was Gorga and Hanz, obvioulsy not as impressive as Cat's though. SPIKE |
| Ethendril02-01-04, 01:22 PM | After i posted/previewed i saw Cat posted his. So i read it and was completely enthralled by it. Same here...nothing like Cat's fights that go back and forth between several differant combatants. Wow. |
| Magagumo02-01-04, 03:47 PM | Gwar!! Finished a 7-hr session where we learned that devils w/ wall of ice, telepathy, and Ints of 22 can make life miserable for a party, but that when a party can apply Greater Invisibility to every member for at least 10 rounds, things tend to balance out. My crit-fiend duelist player doesn't understand why I won't let him put blessed on his rapier when the campaign is absed on fighting off Baator. After all, I have to give my monsters some chance, (and the paladin just casts bless weapon anyways ;)) So anywho, I did that and then ran a 5 hr session of my arena... leaving me entirely without a voice, but ready, willing, and able to run two fights in the next two days. Starting w/ lower-level one, I apologize if it is short on details. @Jindl TY for quoting the 3.0 PHB, mine is presently at home. Poor monks... :P In case of monk fists, the SU indicates that the ki strike ability does not require concentration to activate (see old Wildshape ;)) and is deactivated in an area of anti-magic. |
| Arstimis02-01-04, 04:01 PM | Originally posted by Magagumo In case of monk fists, the SU indicates that the ki strike ability does not require concentration to activate (see old Wildshape ;)) and is deactivated in an area of anti-magic. Originally posted by sshuit I agree with everything you've said except for the fact that Incorporeality specifically states that it is also vulnerable to supernatural attacks also (type SU) and the monk's ki strike is type SU. So..would you care to explain what supernatural attacks incorporeality is vulnerable to. Ki strike is a supernatural attack, which means incorporeality is vulnerable to it. Wildshape is not an attack, so its a completely different subject. And basically you are saying a 20th level monk that uses his fist is incapable of hurting a 6th level ghost rogue. The reason they gave monk ki strike was so it would make up for the lack in magical weapons that other classes get. I still think a monk's ki strike is able to hit incorporeality because it is an SU attack, and ghosts are vulnerable to SU attacks, whats so difficult to understand about that? |
| Magagumo02-01-04, 04:50 PM | Well, I don't believe a smite good effect allows you to auto sdtrike ghosts, you still need a +1 weapon. And area effects (like a dragon's breath) are a whole new ball game. BTW, if you are that worrie,d buy a +1 kama, nunchuku, sai, or singham, that is why most NPC monk's have a +1 exotic monk weapon.. to avoid these eventualities (or things that invole pain to those strike w/ natural attacks, like oozes). Heck, buy a +1 ghost touch weapon if your are extremely worried, but that might be a bit much ;) |
| Arstimis02-01-04, 04:55 PM | But then whats the point in ki strike if i buy a +1 kama, it would make it useless. And anyways i dont plan on buying weapons for him, just not how i want my character, and oozes arent a problem in the arena also im not really worried, even if my ki strikes are allowed to attack him, i still get a 50% miss chance, and with that i still have to roll around a 18 to hit his ac, so i dont plan on winning in the first place |
| Magagumo02-01-04, 05:01 PM | Well, ki strike allows you to bypass Magic damage reduction, a common enough trait in D & D, so monk's are just as capable as the 4th level fighter (who generally has a +1 weapon by then) of hurting the fiendish, celestial, or any number of magical beasties that have this damage reduction (unlike, perhaps, the rogue or cleric, but they have their own means). Incorporeality is a rare occurence in D & D monsters, so it's not like the monk's were truly crippled by it. |
| Battousai200502-01-04, 07:09 PM | Incorperal creatures mess up anyone not prepared, not just monks. The only thing to do, Arstimis, would be buy a ghost touch kama just in case. Maybe worth the price in the future, maybe not. Its the only thing that has a 100% chance to do actual damage. Otherwise, gotta go with the flow. |
| sshuit02-01-04, 07:57 PM | Ok. More ghostly hijinx. I ran the fight and it was about what I expected. I have more questions about ghosts though. In the MM, when it talks about ghosts it says that the ghost gains the Manifestation power, plus 1 to 3 powers decribed below , and goes on to describe Corrupting gaze, corrupting touch, draining touch, frightful moan, Horrific appearance, Malevolence, Telekinesis. My question is how do you determine how many special abilities you get and which ones? sshuit |
| Caterane02-01-04, 08:27 PM | Here`s the link: Fight! (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2466564#post2466564) Ok, some comments now: Dusk has the Die hard feat: Ethendril reminded me that Dusk had the Die hard feat which I forgot despite his reminder in the tactics. What makes matters worse is the fact that he had a True strike running and Babar was at 3 hp. I`m terribly sorry for this Ethendril but I`m not sure what to do. There are two things that lessens it a bit: first, Mo told me to heal everytime as soon as he got more than 9 damage which I didn`t see too so he would never`ve gotten so far down. Secondly, I just rolled the attack. An 11 on the to-hit (success) and dealing (1d8) = 2 damage which brings Babar to 1 hp. His next attack (rolled 15) dealt 10 damage. I know that doesn`t count but I`m not sure how else to deal with the situation. Jindl: In round 20, why didn't Bubo get to deliver the touch? He was stunned before his attack in round 19, so that stunning would have ended before his attack in round 20. He was already in Hurtz's space (grappling) so all he would have to do is make a touch attack (not a grapple check) and deliver the spell. But instead Hurtz got to make a grapple check and kill him (which is the part I don't understand). Can you explain this to me? Another thing I forgot. I also forgot to make another stunning attack on Hurtz`turn in round 19 against Bubo which he wrote in his tactics, so Bubo would´ve been stunned in R20 too. On top of that Bubo had to win an opposed grapple vs Hurtz which is impossible. It might not have gone like planned but fortunately (for me :rolleyes: ) it had not much of an impact. Sorry Jindl. @Marketshare: I found something interessting in the fight Ion vs Derezan. Derezan doesn’t care though, spurring his mount, and kicking it in the flanks, Derezan makes a bold charge to the individual standing behind the rock. Ion, eyes wide open, jaw gaping, thought he was safe behind his defenses, apparently not. With a solid THUD Derezan buries the lance deep in Ion How could Derezan charge someone behind a cover? You know, if you found a solution to my dilemma the Harvester would surely reward you with a few souls or extra lives :) And thanks for the flowers. But next time bring a sixpack with ye :) |
| Magagumo02-01-04, 08:36 PM | Ok, Ebelin and Brackin fight should be posted shortly. First, some comments- There will be a few erros at the end with fighter placement, and Ebelin's hps will not reflect a Bear's Endurace for quite a few rounds (did not realzie till later, and don't have time to change it at the moment). Cat & MB, I left some ntoes on your character sheets, w/ changes you ened to eb made. @ Cat- I also left a note on charging upwards for you in your tactics. I'm trying to write a half-decent story for this, so it will be another couple of minutes (15-30). |
| cellardweller02-01-04, 08:56 PM | MarketShare, Your new format makes it very difficult to work out whats going on - can you at least list position and status at the end of each round? Spoiler Gorga vs Hanz . . . . . . . . . . . What was Gorga doing riding Stomper? Stomper was sent in as a replacement for Biter (a dog)... was Gorga going to be riding him too? "2) Give Stomper attack order, Move to break cover (if any) & fire Do this until Hanz or Brutus make a move to intercept" Clearly this step would have been impossible because you made her ride. There was at least one full attack from stomper that was missed because of this and it meant that Gorga was stuck in melee while buffing. Even assuming that Gorga was riding stomper, there were a number of other errors. Round 2: "(Brutus: 20!, 17+4-4range=17 confirms vs AC 18-2running=16)(dmg: 7+3+10str=20 pts)" Gorga wasn't running- Stomper was. This shouldn't have been a crit. Round 3: "Gorga thinking she is safe for the time being, is surprise to see both Brutus and Hanz RUN to be right beside her horse. " What happened to Stomper's AoO? Edit: Reading what I just wrote, it comes off much more aggressive that I had intended. I'm not having a go at you, just pointing things out for prosperity's sake. |
| ^Rayne^02-01-04, 09:46 PM | Hi Ion Matzumura, I thought I would try challenging your PC verses Aiki Auk again for a battle in the arena. I'm sure my PC will be a good challenge for your PC. I hope you accept this challenge this time, and I look forward to the match next week. :) Rayne |
| Market_Share02-01-04, 10:37 PM | Hey all, This is be my last post until Wednesday, so i'll try to answer some questions. Originally posted by Caterane How could Derezan charge someone behind a cover? You know, if you found a solution to my dilemma the Harvester would surely reward you with a few souls or extra lives He was at an angle. Here's the diagram. I=ion, C=cover, D=derezan I CD Originally posted by Cellardwellar Round 2: "(Brutus: 20!, 17+4-4range=17 confirms vs AC 18-2running=16)(dmg: 7+3+10str=20 pts)" Gorga wasn't running- Stomper was. This shouldn't have been a crit. If you are on your mount, and your mount runs, it's the same thing as you running. But your mount has the run feat, it won't lose it's dex,but you will. [/quote]Originally posted by Cellardwellar Round 3: "Gorga thinking she is safe for the time being, is surprise to see both Brutus and Hanz RUN to be right beside her horse. " What happened to Stomper's AoO? [/quote] Oops. Give to AoO against Brutus then. It doesn't have combat reflexes and wouldn't have been able to take any AoO's against Hanz. Also as for the riding, it didn't say you weren't riding. I just though you were. Anyhow, i can live with myself for making mistakes. I hate moderating and i'm not that good with the rules. I'll make mistakes, and that's tough. No one is perfect. I thought with a second character i'd moderate maybe 1 fight ever two weeks, i can handle that. My rules knowledge isn't very good and i'm a very straight forward kinda dwarf. Since i don't like moderating to begin with, i'll probably just retire a dude and sit back and watch. I always did a better job lurking than posting. :) Oh and Cellar, you can have a go at me. I gots tough hide, and my ego not so easily bruised. Maybe we can go at it in the arena? hehe...take your frustrations out on my pc? It doesn't bother me that ppl here might wanna yell at me for something. Ya'll just a bunch of 0's and 1's on a monitor anyhow. LOL If anyone wants to come to montreal though, ya got a place to crash and i know some fine women. That's REAL life baby...oh yeah. I think all of them are better looking than Gorga anyway. LOL. BUT if gorga-types are your type, we can arrange that too. It'll just cost ya is all. Bah BAhHAHaa SPIKE |
| cellardweller02-01-04, 11:50 PM | Originally posted by Market_Share If you are on your mount, and your mount runs, it's the same thing as you running. But your mount has the run feat, it won't lose it's dex,but you will. The rules only state that riding a running mount forces concetration checks for spellcasting and gives -'s to ranged combat. It doesn't say anything about you loosing your dex bonus. |
| KerlanRayne02-02-04, 01:30 AM | @JonahBlack: Check out RP Thread. KerlanRayne |
| Arstimis02-02-04, 01:51 AM | Horrible fight, as I expected, thanks for ending it early sshuit. I have question, since I guess the majority agrees that a monk's Ki strike (su) attack doesn't count as magic, I still haven't seen significant evidence that says it doesn't, could someone tell me if I can, and how much it would cost to get a wizard to cast a permant magic weapon on my fists(+1, +2, +3) Thanks to whoever does |
| Moherajikuyx02-02-04, 04:21 AM | Originally posted by Ethendril Same here...nothing like Cat's fights that go back and forth between several differant combatants. Wow. Sees a pair of posts about Cat's fight... Sees Mag's post... Passes will save and goes to read the fight without reading further here! :D |
| Caterane02-02-04, 05:14 AM | SPOILER ALERT . . . . . . . . . . . Some questions on the fight: 1) In round 11, why did I sent Ashteru to attack the orc? A tiny familiar vs a fully buffed Orc monk? I never wrote that in my tactics!!! Instead Ashteru should have been polymorphed in a wyvern too and assist me in my grapples!!! That would`ve made a great difference! 2) Then how does it come that Ebelin has only +8 on attacks? I have a +6 BAB, and as a Wyvern a decent strength? 3) I had a roll sequence of 6, 13, 1, 1, 14, 4, 6, 3, 9, 5, 5, 8, 8, 1, 1 ???? That`s 15 rolls with only two of them slightly over 10 and four natural 1! in it. What did you use? D12? Hell, anyone tells me again I have no misfortune and I give ye a MM. 4) Why didn`t I shoot additional MM, especially since it proved an effective tactic? I had still another one memorized and a couple of scrolls. And I wrote it! 5) How does it come that neither me nor Ashteru - both having about +20 spot - didn`t find Brackin for dozens of rounds? 6) Despite Brackin spending many rounds on things like drawing potions, drinking them, healing wounds, battling Ashteru, etc he was very quick at the arena roof next to me. He can only move 30ft upward a round with an action, and nothing at all when he draws and drinks a potion. Mag, that fight should`ve been an easy victory if you wouldn`t have ignored my tactics, no matter the rolls. |
| Moherajikuyx02-02-04, 11:21 AM | Zorander vs. Spike posted. I hope I followed the tactics correctly. |
| Ethendril02-02-04, 11:46 AM | @ Mo: I will be bumping Dusk after three consecutive losses. Also, it appears that the Silencius vs. kedi fight is not going to happen because I still have no tactics from kedi. So you'll probably want to take that off the roster. [@ Babar: By the way...good fight. Your chaotic ways may win for now, but Bahamut's ways are the ways of law and order. I will help you see the error of your actions...though you make it difficult. For now, however, we join forces against a greater evil.] -Ethendril |
| barrel_master02-02-04, 11:54 AM | Originally posted by Ethendril @ Mo: I will be bumping Dusk after three consecutive losses. Also, it appears that the Silencius vs. kedi fight is not going to happen because I still have no tactics from kedi. So you'll probably want to take that off the roster. -Ethendril Just run the fight with the default tactics... if there are not default tactics then just run it however you see fit... I'd generaly recomend that you run it without using any of the characters 'non reusable' items. |
| SnarkHunter02-02-04, 11:55 AM | @Ethendril if you want the credit or whatever you could just run the fight with default tactics. If uh...there are no default tactics go for the simplist tactics possible that don't use any resources. I haven't looked at the characters but for meleers that's run-up-and-hit-it-a-lot and for wizards, more-magic-missiles-then-is-decent. Adjust to your situation. @Mo: I don't think it was quite appropriate to say that Spike "knew zoranders general location" even though he completly failed his spot check. Basicly thats exactly what the snipe action is supposed to avoid. @Jindl and Harvester I'm at round 10 but things (as specified in your tactics) are developing at a rather even pace. I'll make you a deal. You guys finish my Neuroscience reading and I'll finish the fight. ... Err...that may not be the best deal for you guys... |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-02-04, 12:00 PM | I'm afraid in the case he can't Barrel. It was a substitute fight at the last minute. Kedi may not even be aware that he is fighting this week. He created his character on Friday i think, and was told that he'd have to wait until pairings next wednesday. Several posts later, Ethendril offered to run Kedi vs Silencius. Since Kedi hasn't replied or sent tactics, it can only be assumed he does not know about the sudden change in plans. To run it now, would not be fair at all. It would have to be removed from the pairings and both gladiators would re-enter the pool on wednesday. @MO: At first glance it doesn't appear so. "the zoo attacks with ridiculous results." Now that is funny. Tellish |
| MotherBast02-02-04, 12:00 PM | Iron vs. Moon is finished. It will be posted in a little while. Not to give anything away, but one gladiator's tactics depended on a certain condition to be present. It never was and the result was over 20 rounds of arrow firing from two melee masters.... quite unexpected and dull..... |
| sshuit02-02-04, 12:12 PM | Amulet of mighty fists +1 is 6000gp and would do the trick. sshuit I'm also curious as to what having different spells with permanency costs also. Originally posted by Arstimis Horrible fight, as I expected, thanks for ending it early sshuit. I have question, since I guess the majority agrees that a monk's Ki strike (su) attack doesn't count as magic, I still haven't seen significant evidence that says it doesn't, could someone tell me if I can, and how much it would cost to get a wizard to cast a permant magic weapon on my fists(+1, +2, +3) Thanks to whoever does |
| Jindl02-02-04, 12:17 PM | Originally posted by Arstimis could someone tell me if I can, and how much it would cost to get a wizard to cast a permant magic weapon on my fists(+1, +2, +3) Thanks to whoever does Unfortunately, magic weapon and greater magic weapon cannot be made permanent. However, greater magic fang can, and since you are a monk it would give the same enhancement to your fists that a magic weapon spell would. So, my suggestion is to get a permanent greater magic fang cast on your fists (the version of the spell where you get +1 to all attacks), the cost of which depends on what caster level you want to use (important for purposes of dispelling...) -Jindl |
| Arstimis02-02-04, 01:17 PM | I guess that's one of the disadvantages of the monk, making magic fists. It costs 2k for anyone to get a +1 weapon, but 6k to make fists +1 Anyways, thanks for the suggestion sshuit, and thanks Jindl, I think I will probably do that |
| MotherBast02-02-04, 01:40 PM | Iron vs. Moon up. |
| Jindl02-02-04, 01:50 PM | Good story, MotherBast! Now lets hope nobody posts any spoilers :( BTW: Skymoon used a potion of heroism, in addition to the other stuff you listed him using. -Jindl |
| Magagumo02-02-04, 03:13 PM | @sshuit I made a list of peremancy spell costs around page 100 or so ;) I'm afraid we never made that a permenant listing in the rules, but if you find it, perhaps Moh could post it in the rules? Gl @Cat I have responses to most to all your questions, and will discuss them when I finish work and return to my room. @MOh I'm curious about the basis for knowing the direction of an attack (I had considered the possibility myself, but I'm afraid the onus is on you as the Mod to prove it.. Sorry to drop it in your lap ^_^;; ) Edit: Cat's #1- In round 11, why did I sent Ashteru to attack the orc? A tiny familiar vs a fully buffed Orc monk? I never wrote that in my tactics!!! Instead Ashteru should have been polymorphed in a wyvern too and assist me in my grapples!!! That would`ve made a great difference! Cat, your tactics (under A) read as follows- Situation: Here, Brackin stays away and buffs. I am far away enough to savely cast spells on him. If he comes near Cast empowered Magic missiles on him, then the normal MM, then Melfs acid arrow, then shocking grasp on Ashteru and send him to attack, continue with MM scrolls. If he`s still alive, try another tactic. The only thing I neglected was the MM scrolls, and that was because Brackin was starting to get close after that. Thusly, I had you buff in preparation for Wyvern time. Cat's #2- Then how does it come that Ebelin has only +8 on attacks? I have a +6 BAB, and as a Wyvern a decent strength? Your sting was at +10, and since you had BA +6, which is one lower than a wyvern's +7, I ran you as having it's attack routine, -1 for your BA, and +1 for having higher ground over Brackin. Also, remember that you got Multiattack as a bonus feat in wyvern form, so you only had a -2 to all secondary attacks, thus the +8 on those attacks. Cat's #3- I had a roll sequence of 6, 13, 1, 1, 14, 4, 6, 3, 9, 5, 5, 8, 8, 1, 1 ???? That`s 15 rolls with only two of them slightly over 10 and four natural 1! in it. What did you use? D12? Hell, anyone tells me again I have no misfortune and I give ye a MM. I apologize for the lack of clarity in the fight- I began by first showing all of your rolls, but I had been running this for 4 hrs by then (w/ no story) so I decided to only show the first Attack roll (which could hit w/ a 19), any 20's, and the threat rolls for any crits. The rest of your attacks were lumped under the "not 20's) category. I saw quite a few 16's, 17's, and others, but it doesn't make a difference if you need an auto-success to hit w/ the secondary attacks. Cat's #4- 4) Why didn`t I shoot additional MM, especially since it proved an effective tactic? I had still another one memorized and a couple of scrolls. And I wrote it! My mistake there, as I gauged that grappling was imminent, and with Brackin being fully buffed, you certainly didn't want to be w/o Stoneskin, or Wyvern form. It was a judgement call, and perhaps a bad one. You'll note that Brackin was quite high in hp by end of fight, due to my mistakenly premature healing, so I'm not sure the difference they may or may nto ahve made. This is a mistake I admit to making. Cat's #5- 5) How does it come that neither me nor Ashteru - both having about +20 spot - didn`t find Brackin for dozens of rounds? I have your spot listed as a +12, Cat, though I did neglect Ashtaru. of course, distance penalties, as well as Brackin's incredibly good hiding skills+ invisibility, meant you didn't have a prayer of seeing him until you cast see invisibility. You'll note you saw him one round after casting the spell. Cat's #6- 6) Despite Brackin spending many rounds on things like drawing potions, drinking them, healing wounds, battling Ashteru, etc he was very quick at the arena roof next to me. He can only move 30ft upward a round with an action, and nothing at all when he draws and drinks a potion. Actually, Brackin can move 5' a round, even when drawing a potion and drinking it, but that wasn't truly important. (See PHB on 5-foot steps, for that little detail). You seem to be forgetting that he could double-move, just as you could. Thusly, he could climb 60' a round upwards, or expend 10' to move 5' forward and up, then 15' to repeat this movement (as he was moving on a diagonal). This allowed him to climb very quickly towards you, as you were casting a spell each round before moving, while we would devote himself to fully moving. I understand your frustration at losing Cat, but I think it's a very poor sport of you to declare your fight "an easy victory." MB knew that by hiding he could have time to buff, and those buffs kept him alive until he was able to reach you. In a way, he is no different from a buff cleric, like Harvester, which we all know can become incredibly dangerous if given time to grow stronger. By the time we had reached the wyvern stage, he had outlived most of your nasty spells. The same thing happened this week w/ Elder vs. Hurtz. with the monk surviving the rain of spells (Evasion is useful??! :P), crushing the familiar, and finally subdueing the wizard. Ebelin is a lot tougher than Elder, but Monk's are finally fulfilling their roles as Mage-Killers... The Balance of Power is being achieved. Melee can beat Monk & Rogues (higher AB, higher hp, good fort saves, hard to grapple, Barbs immune to melee sneak attack) Arcane Casters beat Melee (Bad Rex and Will saves, hard to reach) Rogues and Monks kill Mages (can't be found, kill quickly w/ sneak attack or grapple) Buff Clerics kill the Slow and Unprepared :D |
| Arstimis02-02-04, 03:51 PM | Originally posted by Magagumo @sshuit I made a list of peremancy spell costs around page 100 or so ;) I'm afraid we never made that a permenant listing in the rules, but if you find it, perhaps Moh could post it in the rules? Gl Thanks Magagumo I was actually looking for that, not sshuit |
| kattattack2202-02-04, 03:52 PM | I didn't find Mag's figures, but according to Spellcasting and Services on p. 129 of the 3.5 PH the costs of just Permanency would be [(Caster Level * 50 gp^2)+(5 gp * xp lost)] : Caster Lv/ Cost Calculation/ Total Cost 9th/ 22,500+2,500/ 25,000 10th/ 25,000+5,000/ 30,000 11th/ 27,500+7,500/ 35,000 12th/ 30,000+10,000/ 40,000 13th/ 32,500+12,500/ 45,000 Spells that can be made permanent on a person: (Min. Caster Lv - Spells) 9th - Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic, Read Magic, Enlarge Person*, Magic Fang*, Reduce Person*, Resistance* 10th - Darkvision, See Invisibility 11th - Arcane Sight, Tongues, Greater Magic Fang* 13th - Rary's Telepatheic Bond* (bonds 2 creatures) *-works on other creatures and objects. |
| Magagumo02-02-04, 04:11 PM | Doh!! Sorry Artismis, my vision must be going bad in my old age ;) @ Moh Also, looking at Zorander fight, I would protest being given a -1 morale bonus for sneaking away, as there was an intent to fight. I was not waiting for buffs to run down (the purpose of that rule) so I wonder why I was penalized for sneaking to the other side of the arena? As I said, I think we need to examine intent, and my tactics clearly state that I would attack as soon as I was at the other side.... It's shaky ground either way, I know, but I do not being lumped into the "delay tactics" category. |
| Jindl02-02-04, 04:12 PM | @kattattack22 - Hey, your forumla and numbers are off a bit. The little 2 is not actually a ^2, it is a footnote to the table. Thus, Permanency (caster level 9) costs 9 x 50 gp for the service plus 5 x the exp cost (depending on the effect made permanent). For example: Enlarge person at its minimun is 450 gp + 2500 gp + 10 gp = 2960 gp. This effect is considered to be at 9th caster level for dispelling. So, a character might want it made at 20th caster level to prevent dispel magics from destroying it (since if it is dispelled it is NOT replaced for free). Enlarge person at 20th caster level is 1000 gp +2500 gp + 10 gp = 3560 gp. Not that much more expensive, eh? Hopefully, based on these examples you can figure out the rest of the prices. Let me know if you have any ?'s. -Jindl |
| ^Rayne^02-02-04, 04:35 PM | Hi Ion Matzumura, I thought I would try challenging your PC verses Aiki Auk again for a battle in the arena. I'm sure my PC will be a good challenge for your PC. I hope you accept this challenge this time, and I look forward to the match next week. Rayne I have received word form Ion Matzumura that he has accepted the challenge and his PC will defeat mine this weekend. ;) Aiki Auk better start training harder if he doesn't want to be defeated two weeks in a row. :) |
| kattattack2202-02-04, 04:39 PM | @kattattack22 - Hey, your forumla and numbers are off a bit. The little 2 is not actually a ^2, it is a footnote to the table. Thus, Opps, my bad. Ok, well in general just need to follow the formula: Caster Level * spell level * 10 gp + additional material/focus costs + (5 gp * xp cost) [Note: lv 0 spells are 5 gp * caster level] which for permanency is lv 5 spell and xp cost for caster level 9 is 500 XP and for each additional caster level beyond 9 is another 500 xp (ex. lv 10 1000 xp, lv 11 1500 xp, etc.). I think that should cover the basics right there. |
| Jindl02-02-04, 04:48 PM | RE: Permanency costs - Don't forget the service cost for casting the spell you want to make permanent (10 gp for enlarge person in my previous example). -Jindl |
| kattattack2202-02-04, 04:59 PM | Yes, paying for the casting of the spell you want permanent would also be very important. Thank you Jindl for clarifying things. |
| Arstimis02-02-04, 05:10 PM | Thanks for you help with the permancy thing, now i just gotta wait till my next win when i get the money for it |
| Caterane02-02-04, 05:20 PM | If anyone is still interested in the False life issue, here`s what WotC thinks: If you cast false life again during the duration of the spell, you do not gain any additional hit points from it (unless the new amount is higher than the old amount, in which cast you gain the difference), even if the points you had gained have been lost. You cannot gain additional hit points from this spell until the duration of the original has expired. **Please quote this e-mail in any reply.** **************************************** ************************** Darrin Wizards of the Coast - Customer Service Website: http://www.wizards.com Game Support Phone: 1-800-324-6496 Monday through Friday, 9 AM - 7 PM PST Corporate Phone: (425) 226-6500 **************************************** ************************** Seems like the 1hour/lvl duration has to run out before you can cast another one. Sounds logical, sounds like with other spells, and most importantly: sounds balanced. |
| Ethendril02-02-04, 06:00 PM | Just brainstorming about possible future characters, and had some questions: 1. If a blackguard has a mount, does it follow the same rules as a paladin for the type you can obtain (i.e. can you get a griffon or some other mount, or just those listed as blackguard companions)? 2. Also, for the arena, can a paladin or blackguard use other mounts as described in the DMG as long as they meet the criteria for suitable mounts listed on page 204? 3. If the blackguard were large (say, an ogre or minotaur), would it attract a suitably large mount? 4. Can centaurs use horseshoes of speed even though they are not "animals"? Thanks. -Ethendril [goes back to dreaming about how he can get more CREDITS] |
| Magagumo02-02-04, 06:01 PM | Sounds like a clear answer to me, which is all I really want at this point (Can't speak for the rest of you all ^_~). Thanks for getting that cleared up... *stares at name for a minute to make sure he quotes the correct name* Cat :D Nevr vs. Octavian is up... to spoil it for you all... Arrows and Spells were used!!! *Dashes away cackling* And I'm off to play In Nomine with no voice! (hurrah for speaking for 14 hrs straight for my campaign and then my arena multishot). @ Ethendril- Centaurs are not animals, so based on the discussion of this board, they probably would not be affected. As for the Huge mount, I'm afraid this is only if you can qualify for that size mount (bigger creatures are naturally more dangerous). In my game, a minotaur paladin NPC can summon up a celestial Huge Spider, so it might work, but he doesn't normally ride it (so no issues w/ vermin and Mounted combat and the like). |
| sshuit02-02-04, 06:04 PM | I think this clears things up nicely. Sorc's shouldn't have more HP's than big burly fighters. Although I was thinking about splashing 1 level of Sorc to get 4d10+4 HP's... Soooooo broken. Originally posted by Caterane If anyone is still interested in the False life issue, here`s what WotC thinks: Seems like the 1hour/lvl duration has to run out before you can cast another one. Sounds logical, sounds like with other spells, and most importantly: sounds balanced. |
| Caterane02-02-04, 06:17 PM | @Tellish: Sad, sad, sad. ^^^^^^^^^ |
| Ethendril02-02-04, 06:21 PM | Centaurs are not animals, so based on the discussion of this board, they probably would not be affected. So could they use boots of speed? It doesn't seem right that they couldn't use either. |
| sshuit02-02-04, 06:32 PM | [flameon] Re Centaurs + boots of speed or horseshoes of speed. Why will no one use common sense for these situations. all hooven creatures like horses, nightmares, centaurs, donkeys etc.etc. should be able to use horseshoes of speed. I've never met such a bunch of rules lawyers that would rather scour through errata and rulebooks rather than use a teaspoon of common sense!!!!!!!!!!! And similarly, no megaraptors, carrior crawlers, bugbears, undead dragons and the like cannot wear horseshoes of speed. If you sent these questions to WoTC they would shake their heads and roll their eyes. [flameoff] |
| Caterane02-02-04, 06:36 PM | @sshuit: Since you mentioned Nightmares I`m with you on that :angel: |
| SnarkHunter02-02-04, 08:24 PM | Fights up yo! I hope you thought the wait was worth it (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2479301#post2479301) |
| kattattack2202-02-04, 09:02 PM | OMG, Jindl vs. Harvester fight was cool. Excellent roleplay with the battle. Not going to spoil anything, but make sure to read round 12. |
| sshuit02-02-04, 10:58 PM | @snark nice fight! I for one don't think I could have run such a high level battle without lots and lots and lots of tylenol sshuit |
| ^Rayne^02-03-04, 12:09 AM | Jindl one thing I would like to point out is that the Harvester's holy symbol was made of wood. You could have kept pursuing him into the corners of the ring (I know it is a forest setting but doesn't it have to hold to the boundaries outlined for the gladiator pits?). By doing this you could have more or less penned him to a corner somewhere so your summons could do their work. He can't let go of his holy symbol or he would lose his spell focus for most of his cleric spells. A very bad thing for a cleric! Also it seems silly that by the time your PC got to below fourty hitpoints you wouldn't use the Heal Scroll on yourself? I also want to point out that since those arrows were normal any arrow fired at Jindle would be repelled by the Wood Repelling spell and would essentially be useless verses Jindl. These are just a few observations I had from the fight. Overall I enjoyed the 'Inside the Actor's Studio' theme. That is always a lot of fun. |
| KerlanRayne02-03-04, 01:41 AM | About the False Life debate, I found this quote in the Spels and Magic Items board. Originally posted by Hypersmurf The 3e Main FAQ has this to say: How is the body feeder weapon quality supposed to work? Do the temporary hit points from the weapon stack? The same question applies to mind feeder weapons and to spell effects, such as vampiric touch. Temporary hit points from a body feeder weapon stack with each other, but not with temporary hit points from any other source. Likewise, temporary psionic points from a mind feeder weapon stack, but not with temporary psionic points from any other source. In general, any effect that allows you to gain temporary hit points over time allows you to stack those points, but only those points. For example, if you use the vampiric touch spell, the temporary hit points you gain from that particular casting of the spell stack. They don’t stack with the temporary hit points you get from an aid spell, nor would the effects of two vampiric touch or aid spells stack. If you were to use two body feeder weapons (or two mind feeder weapons), you could not stack the temporary points from the two weapons. -Hyp. Does that settle it? KerlanRayne |
| Alterlat02-03-04, 01:43 AM | @sshuit: Glad you like the Horizon Walker - its still an open question whether HW will be a couple of levels' dip or something more extensive. You'll note that Jagath tried to neutralise the main threat (Zippy) first. He's clearly an intimidating horse. |
| Tharkos02-03-04, 05:43 AM | Originally posted by Caterane If anyone is still interested in the False life issue, here`s what WotC thinks: Seems like the 1hour/lvl duration has to run out before you can cast another one. Sounds logical, sounds like with other spells, and most importantly: sounds balanced. He didnt contradict my interpretation because I dont say that False Life adds temporary hit points cumulative. Since the duration of False Life ends when it is discharged (i.e. the hit points are used up) any other False Life (with the next weaker effect) spell you previously cast will become active as per PHB pg 172 "Multiple effects at different strengths". |
| ^Rayne^02-03-04, 06:13 AM | ^That still means the hitpoints are stacking though by your way of seeing it. If you have 20 temp hitpoints on one casting and 10 on another and the first 20 are used up ending the spell and then the next 10 are being used then you are still essentially stacking the spell. That is specifically what the guy at WoC said doesn't happen. Will this silly debate never end?!? |
| Caterane02-03-04, 07:32 AM | Great story idea Snark, very innovative! I want to point out some things I noticed: R2: No soft fall needed because of my ring of featherfall R2-6: The Harvester just stood in one place? I know I didn`t cover Repel wood but I have non-wooden weapons too. Anyway, it`s absolutely ok to change to my plan B. R6: After the greater dispel, I wanted to cast Spell resistance, especially when being unable to attack Jindl and go for a spell duel. R6: You didn`t check to dispel my permanent enlarge. Lucky me. R7: I didn`t get additional hp from Divine power. R11: my newly summoned 3rd SW should`ve gotten only 1 attack not 3, but since none hit it didn`t affect the fight R11: Jindl mentioned in his tactics to react accordingly to my actions when passing spellcraft so why did he cast produce flame, knowing of my fire immunity. I know it was a difficult fight, especially with 2 flying spellcasters. All in all, good work. @Rayne: If you force a protective spell on someone it will break. Asides, ever tried to catch or outmaneuver the Harvester? @Jindl: Who`s the arena champion? Pardon? Who? Sorry, I couldn`t hear you, can you repeat it please? A bit louder perhaps? Who? :pile: |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-03-04, 07:41 AM | @MO: I have a request. Kelek/Hurtz will sit out this week. Tellish |
| Moherajikuyx02-03-04, 07:51 AM | Ethendril: :) MB - wow great fight! Snark - what a show!! Compliments! Cat - good work! Now you've got 3 titles: arena bard, champ... And child! :D Originally posted by Magagumo @MOh I'm curious about the basis for knowing the direction of an attack (I had considered the possibility myself, but I'm afraid the onus is on you as the Mod to prove it.. Sorry to drop it in your lap ^_^;; ) Of course, no problem :) I think the game makes any effort to counter sniping strategies... That should normally be more effective. Uhm... After reading it again, it could be a melee-only thing... It sure isn't clear, though. What do you guys think? Here's the quote. From SRD, Special Abilities and Conditions, under Invisibility: If an invisible creature strikes a character, the character struck still knows the location of the creature that struck him (until, of course, the invisible creature moves). The only exception is if the invisible creature has a reach greater than 5 feet. In this case, the struck character knows the general location of the creature but has not pinpointed the exact location. Originally posted by Magagumo One’s hps do not change with polymorph, though the Fort save does I think in 3.5 they do. Originally posted by Tharkos He didnt contradict my interpretation because I dont say that False Life adds temporary hit points cumulative. The problem in your interpretation is that you don't consider the other spells. If you've got 2 enhancement bonus to str, they're there at the same time. Same goes for false life, thus both the false life hps will drop at the same time. The customer service reply is yet another example of why customer service has to be burned. They didn't even read the spell they were replying about. |
| sshuit02-03-04, 09:07 AM | Originally posted by Alterlat @sshuit: You'll note that Jagath tried to neutralise the main threat (Zippy) first. He's clearly an intimidating horse. As of this week he will be an intimidating : Unicorn And I've bought a tower shield to get full cover while summoning him since these 5x5' rocks seem to be useless for getting cover. sshuit |
| Tharkos02-03-04, 09:37 AM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx The customer service reply is yet another example of why customer service has to be burned. They didn't even read the spell they were replying about. I am in absolute agreement with this, but I would add the design team as well for the same reason ... |
| Moherajikuyx02-03-04, 10:05 AM | Tharkos - lol! Leadership - since it looks like no one is using it, de facto, I removed the leadership subrules. After all they were not really official. I'm adding a rule to simplify things, accounts and flames. Cohorts are unable to craft. Also, remember that the abilities are the DMG ones for now. Cohorts can't craft because this way we're safer. If we allow them to craft, one can make a cohort who crafts, and a fighting cohort, and swap as needed, and we'll need rules to control that; he could also swap cohorts ala Jindl, 5' before the pairings (:D I'm kidding J)... This way it's simpler. |
| LLMadCow02-03-04, 11:03 AM | @Jindl - Hey there! I am going crazy waiting for the fights to be run. No pressure or anything, I wouldn't want to see Herrix Concedes fight or Herrix CDGs Himself in Round 1, but I am anxious to see how everything turns out.... |
| Caterane02-03-04, 11:10 AM | @LLMad: Huh? The fight was run 4 days ago and Herrix lost. You didn`t read that? I see, the fight is still on the roster; perhaps Mo forgot it too. |
| barrel_master02-03-04, 11:20 AM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket I'm afraid in the case he can't Barrel. It was a substitute fight at the last minute. Kedi may not even be aware that he is fighting this week. He created his character on Friday i think, and was told that he'd have to wait until pairings next wednesday. Several posts later, Ethendril offered to run Kedi vs Silencius. Since Kedi hasn't replied or sent tactics, it can only be assumed he does not know about the sudden change in plans. To run it now, would not be fair at all. It would have to be removed from the pairings and both gladiators would re-enter the pool on wednesday. Tellish Why not run the fight? At least if the fight is run then Kedi has a chance to advance. Even if he lost, not running the fight would produce the same result... he'd be at the same level. The only thing I see wrong with it is that he may be concerened about his win/loss record. |
| Jindl02-03-04, 11:22 AM | Re: The Jindl / Harvester fight. Overall, I think Snark did a pretty good job. But, in addition to the stuff Cat mentioned, there are some other ?'s/issues I want to raise: In Round 2+ - When Jindl readied to interrupt the charge, his initiative should have been set to before the Harvester's. Instead it was set after the Harvester for the rest of the fight. In Round 2+ - The Harvester tries to use Mounted Combat to negate Nox's attack, when it is not the Harvester's turn. During our long debate, it was decided that you cannot use mounted combat with a skeleton/zombie, when it is not your turn. The Harvester should not have been able to negate Nox's attacks which would have hit in Round 3 and 4. At the 17 damage per hit that Nox was averaging, this would have killed Nightingale and greatly altered the rest of the fight (Jindl would probably had won because the Harvester would lack the mobility to attempt to evade the summons, or to evade my charge + pounce + melee attempts.) Also, in Round 4 the mounted combat feat is tried to be used twice, which no character can do, regardless of what type of mount they have (MC can only be used once a round). This is one of the two biggest mistakes in the fight, and would have most likely resulted in a win for Jindl. In Round 4 - The Harvester takes an AoO on Nox with his lance immediately after he used his fist to attack Nightingale to break the Halt Undead spell. Since Harvey had his lance ready, he would have had to "sheathe" it (a move action) then attack Nightingale (a standard action), and would have been unable to "draw" his lance again that round. So there should not have been an AoO against Nox. This doesn't really matter for the fight, but I see "sword and board" clerics getting away with this all the time, which is why I even mentioned it in my tactics. **It's very important that moderators pay special attention to the draw/sheathe weapons/shields actions. Especially when you have an armored caster who needs a hand free for somatic components. In Round 6 - I cast my greater dispelling scroll. The dispel checks were made at caster level 11, but the scroll was caster level 13. If the right caster level had been used, it would have dispelled his protection from fire, which is very important given the amount of flame strikes and such that I made in the next 3 rounds. The additional damage from the flamestrikes would have left the Harvester with only 8 hps in Round 9 (after the two flamestrikes) and would likely have changed the fight dramatically, as the Harvester struggled to heal himself (instead of summoning those spiritual weapons so early). Since the protection from fire also absorbed 21 points of damage later in the fight, this mistake saved the Harvester a total of 52 hps and really made a big difference in the fight. In Round 8 - You make this statement "The arrow hawks can’t catch the cleric this or any other round. They will be ignored until harvester stops moving. " This is untrue. I've seen this said before (when Jindl and Skymoon fought one time) and this is way wrong. The reason the arrowhawks can attack the Harvester is because the arena is a circle. That means if they are near the center, the farthest anyone can be away is 150 feet. And since they fly (and can descend twice as fast) it is a simple thing for them to descend 30 feet from the center as they fly 90 feet closer to the Harvester (a single move) and then shoot with their electricity ray, which has a 50 foot range. The Total distance is 140 feet, which easily reaches the 15x15 Huge sized Harvester+Mount. Arrowhawks are creatures of elemental air, and have an Int of 10, so I think it is very reasonable for them to use this technique against a faster opponent. Had the arrowhawks used this simple strategy, they would have continued to damage the Harvester and Jindl would have likely won the fight. In Round 8+ - From Round 8 on, my AC becomes an important statistic as the spiritual weapons begin their onslaught. In Rounds 8+9, may AC was correctly calculated to be 25 (Thats -2 size, +1 dex, +7 natural, +9 armor = AC 25). But in Rounds 10+11, my AC dropped to 24 (not sure why, but it wouldn't change the hits). In Round 12, this mistake in AC begins to make a difference, as Spiritual weapon #1 would have missed (and saved me 9 hps.) In Round 12, Jindl cast barkskin (the +4 bonus stacks with everything else in his AC) and now his AC should be 29, but it was listed as 28. In Round 13, if the correct AC of 29 had been used it would have negated 2 hits, and saved me 17 hps. This is a pretty important little mistake, just do to the fact that if my AC had been correct it would have saved me a total of 26 hps, and I would not have died when Animal Growth wore off. In Round 13 - Jindl should not have begun to use ranged attacks. The purpose of produce flame (as was stated in my tactics) is to deal damage in melee. My tactics said specifically to charge + pounce + melee. As a Deinonychus with longstrider running, my speed is 70. That means I can charge 140 feet. And since I am Huge, I have a 10' reach. So, I can attack anything within 145 feet from the center, on a charge. From the center of the arena, the farthest the Harvester (who has a 15x15 square) can be is 135 feet. So I should be able to charge him. Why didn't I? My tactics expressly said charge + pounce + melee. Since the Harvester had been shooting arrows, he didn't have his lance in hand, so no AoO. I really should have engaged in melee. I don't understand the decision not too, but I likely cost me the fight (as I would have done quite a bit more damage with my 4 natural attacks (and 4 touches from produce flame). Melee would have also given the arrowhawks a chance to resume their attacks. So this was a pretty big mistake in ignoring my tactics. As for using the Heal spell, I never really said to use it for myself, but it would have made since to use it before animal growth wore off (especially since I can easily cast it defensively.) But this part I can understand, since I never really told you when to heal. All in all, this post was longer than I intended. I'm not upset about the fight, I just want to hear from Snarkhunter (and the others) about the issues Cat and I have brought up. In these high level fights, a tiny mistake (like being off by 1 pt on AC, or missing a caster level by 2 on a dispel check) can make a HUGE difference. What does everyone think about the issues I raise? -Jindl |
| LLMadCow02-03-04, 11:23 AM | Originally posted by Caterane @LLMad: Huh? The fight was run 4 days ago and Herrix lost. You didn`t read that? I see, the fight is still on the roster; perhaps Mo forgot it too. What? Where? When? I have searched the fight thread from prior to the postings to now and see nothing to indicate the fight has been run. Can you give me a link or at least tell me you are just yanking my chain....? |
| Jindl02-03-04, 11:31 AM | Originally posted by LLMadCow @Jindl - Hey there! I am going crazy waiting for the fights to be run. No pressure or anything, I wouldn't want to see Herrix Concedes fight or Herrix CDGs Himself in Round 1, but I am anxious to see how everything turns out.... My apologies to Cat, LLMadCow, Tellish, and cellardwellar for the tardiness of the fights. I had my home PC crash last night, and will have to redo the fights today from work. I'll get them fights posted by the end of the day. -Jindl @LL - He is yanking for all he is worth :D |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-03-04, 11:47 AM | Done. @Jindl I feel your pain. Probably not as bad as you, but Nevr's tactics were completely ignored (yet again). I never healed either when i said to. Plus other stuff, but not so bad as you. which is why I even mentioned it in my tactics. **It's very important that moderators pay special attention to the draw/sheathe weapons/shields actions. Especially when you have an armored caster who needs a hand free for somatic components. I wholeheartedly agree with this statement. I wish some ppl would pay attention to some of the fights some of us run. I know for one, i always say "sheath" this to do "that" to try and make a point what is going on rather than just say, "he casts". Or at least i try to as often as possible. @jindl -again. Very valid points. At first i didn't read the tactics when i read Cat's post. But after reading your post and your tactics. WOW! All i can say, is that i hope something was learned from all this, otherwise fubar's like that will continue to be made. Rito vs Bruno is up. Story and all. I hope you enjoy the read. I may not be the arena bard (or even try to unseat the current one) but i try to make them entertaining. I forgot to include the link to the online roller in the fight. All rolls can be found here... http://krisinchico.brinkster.net/rollsearch.asp use "rito_bruno" for your search. Tellish |
| ^Rayne^02-03-04, 11:47 AM | Jindl, to be honest I think you got the wrong end of the stick on that fight. While I read the thread I thought everything seemed to be going in a different direction than you outlined. I read your tactics and I thought they were pretty clear. In addition to that I read where you posted multiple times that your Greater Dispell would possibly effect the Harvester's permanent increase in size. In addition not even allowing the arrowhawks to make attacks in an arena with limited boundaries seemed like a big misstep to me as well. When I read that I thought that it was a large assumption to say there was no way they could get within range of the Harvester especially when cornered between a repel wood spell (significantly limiting area where he could go) and the range of those flying creatures. In my opinion the clear winner of that fight was Jindl not the Harvester. Sorry Caterane but I think the Harvester got really lucky on this match and didn't really deserve the victory he was given. |
| Ethendril02-03-04, 12:13 PM | @ Mo & Cellardwellar: Babar challenges Smushy, and Smushy challenges Babar at level 6. Sorry, but there's no other possible fight here. Put it on the roster, Mo. -Ethendril While I'm dishing out challenges for other people, maybe I should do one for myself... @Mercy: Dusk challenges Targ (who is the only one at level six I have not fought). |
| Bishop the Bardican02-03-04, 01:03 PM | How would I go about entering a character? I have tried to read the posts, but I am a little confused. |
| Ethendril02-03-04, 01:08 PM | @ Bishop: 1. Go to the "Gladiators" thread (there's a link to all relevant threads on page one of this thread). 2. In the Gladiators thread, scroll down until you find the character sheet and rules for character creation. 3. Post a reply in the Gladiators thread and post your character thre. 4. When your character is finished, put "Ready for February 4" in the subject line. 5. Every Wednesday there are pairings posted, and you will be paired with another fighter of your level. 6. With the pairings, you will see a moderator. Send him tactics by Friday, and the fight will be posted by Monday. Welcome. -Ethendril |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-03-04, 01:10 PM | Go to this link. It will help you get started. Builds (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=73069) 1. Make a character 2. cut/paste the sample character sheet 3. plug in your numbers 4. post it in the builds thread. 5. announce here that you are ready to begin, 6. die a horrible and miserable death. Tellish |
| Ethendril02-03-04, 01:18 PM | 6. die a horrible and miserable death. I think you're supposed to leave that part out... |
| Caterane02-03-04, 02:11 PM | LLMadCow: What? Where? When? I have searched the fight thread from prior to the postings to now and see nothing to indicate the fight has been run. Can you give me a link or at least tell me you are just yanking my chain....? :rofl: Re: The Jindl / Harvester fight. There were mistakes on both sides Jindl but I`m not sure that your victory was that assured as you want to put it. I mentioned to ready an action and fly away if someone`s going to charge me, big Jindl or arrowhawk. Or dispel animal growth & Co on Nox. I also wrote to buff if melee is going to happen and you don`t want to know my AC (~40). If you can charge me, so can I (using a nonwooden weapon, who cares) and you wanted to avoid charges at all costs. I would`ve also have more hp with Div.Power, and Bears+Aid later. And spell resistance would`ve stopped another good points of damage which got wrongly through. And then I had excellent means of healing, me AND Nightingale. I think it doesn`t matter if two of the 9attacks/round SW wouldn`t have hit; next round then (had a 30% chance to hit with each). The attack on nightingale could also be a shield bash or using the shaft of the lance as an improvised weapon (only the attack counts, not if it hits) or the Harvester making a headbutt, ah damn, he has none. Perhaps you would`ve dealt more damage at one point or another but at other points there would have been less points of damage dealt, it may even out, or may go in any ones favor - who knows but it`s hard to say if that gives you a 100% victory, or any at all. That`s all I want to point out. |
| Magagumo02-03-04, 02:22 PM | Don't want to step between two other Arena giants on the Jindl/Harvester fight... at least not yet. One thing I want to note is that you can cast spells with a shield in hand, unless it is a locked gauntlet (and I think Tower shield might also completely occupy that hand). So, it's alright if the "sword & board cleric" casts spells, just make sure they have sheathed their sword if they are casting behind a raised tower shield. @MOh In the future, lets not give people such an easy chance to find ZOrander, eh? I'd appreciate it ;) Also, could you explain the reasons for the morale penalty? I was taking actions which would help me in a ifght, and we don't penalize two spellcasters fror buffing for several rounds before going at each other, so why should we penalize the potion drinking sniper? |
| Jindl02-03-04, 02:54 PM | @Cat - Some of the mistakes we pointed out do in fact balance each other out. But, others (like dispelling the protection from fire or totally ignoring the arrowhawks) dramatically shift the fight in my favor. Even though you had nearly limitless access to healing (via those cure light scrolls), repeated conversions of spells and castings of cure lights delay your offense, and shift the fight heavily in favor of the druid. I can't say with 100% certainty that Jindl would have won, but it does appear to be a pretty high probability. That being said, I also want to say that the Harvester is one of the toughest opponents you can find in the arena. But his great strength depends so heavily on his mount. The next time we meet in battle (be it Elder, Ghost, or Jindl), Nightingale will be destroyed. I was soooo close this time ... @Mag - Check the SRD> from the SRD, Magic Overview Somatic (S): A somatic component is a measured and precise movement of the hand. You must have at least one hand free to provide a somatic component. and from the SRD, Equipment Shield, Heavy, Wooden or Steel: You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A heavy shield is so heavy that you can’t use your shield hand for anything else. and from the SRD, Equipment Shield, Light, Wooden or Steel: You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A light shield’s weight lets you carry other items in that hand, although you cannot use weapons with it. Neither light nor heavy shields meet the criteria of having a hand free, unless the caster sheathes his weapon and uses his weapon hand. This was the point of my comment, because "sword and board" characters are getting away with this all the time. They are not having to spend move actions to sheath their weapon so that they have a hand free to cast/drink potions/etc. Then they are not having to spend actions drawing the weapons again afterwards. This is especially important to mounted characters, because if they draw+drink one round, then they do not have a weapon ready for AoO's and they cannot charge until the spend another action drawing a weapon. For example, Iron mounted with heavy shield and lance, can sheath his lance and cast righteous might (move + standard), but now has no weapon in hand for AoO's. The following round, he cannot charge, because it will take him a move action to draw his lance, in charging is a full round action. I hope you see where I'm going with this. In short, I would like to see more emphasis by moderators on the sheath/draw actions and on "hand free" requirements. AFAIK, Tellish and myself are the only one who I have seen make notes in the fights forcing characters to follow these rules. I would like to see more moderators paying attention to this, because in a fight, how fast you develop your strategy often determines the winner. And getting to skip actions with free draws/sheathing is a major mistake on the moderators part. -Jindl |
| Magagumo02-03-04, 03:16 PM | Duly noted, Jindl, I will keep an eye out for this the next time I run a "shword and boarder" :) To prvent myself from looking like a total idiot, as Jindl does commonly correct me, I generally post from work, when my brain is about to shut down, so I am posting from memory. I honestly appreciate the clarifications, Jindl, as I feel I have a strong grasp of the rules, but minutiae tend to escape me. I suppose I am best when I can draw from experience, but my campaign contains a party w/o a single shield amongst them, except perhaps fro the wyrmling green dragon druid cohort, and he just uses a lot of buffing wands. Anyways, we live we learn, we die... we learn more ^_~ @T_o_K I can't believe I forgot to include that Tony would have fly cast on him after Bruno cast it on himself :embarrass From my obviously subjective perspective, the fight looked well-run. My only question is how MOh's AC was so low at the end there, with the mighty hydra-Bruno (see Snark, I told you they are good ;)) as I thought he had Blind-Fight. If his AC 16 reflected a lost Dex mod, I think he may have been alive one or two more rounds, but as grappling an invisible, buffed, hydra w/ cold damage on the way (w/ or w/o making the Will save) it was likely he was dead soon enough... As I notice that you did not automatically provide me with a 250 lb object (serves that dwarf right ^_^), I think I will be investigating the cost of a 275 lb ball of iron... pig iron to be specific :). I assume such an object would survive the impact, and could be a useful thing to have (Tony can lug it in and leave it by my space if necessary, his light load is almost 3700 lbs!! :eek: ) |
| ^Rayne^02-03-04, 03:20 PM | ^Not to mention the "Quick Draw" feat which would be entirely wasted if DM's let everyone get it for free anyway. One thing I would like to mention above though... from the SRD, Equipment Shield, Light, Wooden or Steel: You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A light shield’s weight lets you carry other items in that hand, although you cannot use weapons with it. Unlike the Heavy shield this one doesn't state you can't use your hand for anything else. This shield states you cannot use a weapon. This doesn't mean you can't cast spells with it that require Somatic components. One other detail I would like to mention again about something Cat- said earlier. He said he was more than capable of attacking your PC with no wood weapons. As I pointed out earlier if he had done so he wouldn't be able to cast most Cleric spells because his Wooden Holy Symbol wouldn't make the trip. So advancing on Jindl would have been suicide for the Harvester at this point and I still think he should have lost that fight. |
| Caterane02-03-04, 03:21 PM | Shield+Casting: Well, I plan to get an animated shield for several levels now but wanted to wait until next level. Perhaps I create one right now so that matters are settled from my side. Bruno vs Rito: You can only make one AoO against the same opponoment in a given round, and surely not 12. Nightingale: I`ll hunt Crimson Sunrise anytime soon. Perhaps I give you Nightingale as a birthday present. When was that Jindl? :D |
| JonahBlack02-03-04, 03:37 PM | Just to be clear, as I obviously have a vested interest: Does a two handed fighter need to spend some sort of extra action to drink a potion, cast a spell etc, in order to 're-ready their weapon? Say for arguments sake, I'm, oh, an orc with, uh, a greatsword, and I want to drink a potion of cure light wounds. Do I drink, and then need to spend a move action to re-ready my weapon, even though I have a hand on it the whole time? |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-03-04, 03:48 PM | @Cat: the hydra gets AoO's with ALL its heads. Since Bruno was a 10-headed Hydra, that's 10 AoO's...and besides, they were taken against the poor bookie at the end of the fight, whom surely could not slay Bruno. lol @Mag: yup, i left out the dex, but by my addition, he still dies that round, i also forgot to give you +1 height advantage. So add that in there as well. @Jonah. Said orc with greatsword in both hands and wanted to drink a healing potion would work like this. 1-5' back 2-lets go one hand [free] 3-draws healing potion[move] 4-drinks healing potion[std] --next round-- 5-ready sword [mv] 6-5' forward 7-swing batter, batter, SWING![std] Tellish |
| ^Rayne^02-03-04, 04:07 PM | In the book it says it takes a Full-Round action to prepare to throw a splash weapon. It mentions going to page 158 for farther information on what occurs when a splash weapons is thrown. My question is why does it take a full round action to prepare a splash weapon? It isn't a maltov cocktale that needs to be lit first and page 158 doesn't expain why this process takes so long. Also does that mean one spends the entire round preparing to throw the thing but not actually throw it till the next round? The whole description of why this takes so long is very vague and I would like some specifics on this. The other Full round actions make a lot of sense but this one doesn't, and I'm wondering can a player start with a splash weapon in hand to lessen this enormous wasted time and make the splash attack in the same round if they are within range of their target? The only reason I can see this was done and not explained is they don't have a good reason why it takes so long but they were concerned about balance since splash weapons do not require any specific weapon proficiency. |
| Jindl02-03-04, 04:56 PM | Johan vs Kelek is done. After round 4 the tactics for both pretty much fell apart. This fight is a good example of why players should use LLMadCow's recommended default tactics sheet. -Jindl |
| Ethendril02-03-04, 05:02 PM | This fight is a good example of why players should use LLMadCow's recommended default tactics sheet. Where is that posted? |
| MotherBast02-03-04, 07:29 PM | About the "Sword and Board" issue, I would just like to point out that I am one Mod who always takes the "free hand" issue into account. You will notice in the Moon and Iron fight, nither got to use there shield because both were using hands for spells and attacks. Also, to add to this, if the caster is using a scroll, he must have both hands free, one to hold the scroll, and the other to make the necessary somatic componits. I can remember one fight in particular where I forced a gladiator to drop everything he was holding to cast a Shocking Grasp scroll. This cost him the fight later, as he had no weapon to fight with after his shocking grasp was wasted. About the Harvy/Jindl fight, I have to say that while reading it, I too was a little suprised at the number of small mistakes. (Well, to Jindl and Cat they might seem big mistakes.) Overall, I thought it was a good fight, and rules wise was handled well. As far as the Mounted Combat feat only being used on Harvys turn, that was my suggestion of one way the rules "might' be interprated. It was never agreed apon though, and at the moment I think no set in stone rules about undead mounts exist, so we are still running them as normal mounts at the moment. That being said, a lot of mistakes were made with tactics interpratation. That is one of the reasons I always keep Brackin's tactics short, simple, and linier. Both the gladiators had very detailed tactics, with many "If x happens do y...." situations. While tactics like this allow the gladiator to cover many more eventualitys, they are much much harder to carry out. With tactics like this, it is hard to get an idea for what the basic plan for the gladiator is. A lot of things can be ommited. No one is going to memorize two seprate 3 page long tactics. Now, having said that little bit, I will say this fight was possibly farther from tactical exicution than could be easly excused. Several of the mistakes were preventable with a simple double check of the tactics (like the greater dispel, the spell resistance, the melee being delayed, etc.) When I run high level fights like this, I try to set aside a large block of my day for it, so I have time to double check myself after every round. Often, I find I have made an error several rounds prior, and either re-run the fight from where the error was made, or in its entirety. I think maybe a lot of the little errors in this fight could be attributed to haste. That being said, it was a tough fight, and its easy to be "monday quartarbacks" and point out the errors after the fact. Snark had his hands full with this one, and I don't envy him having to have run it. If I had done so, I'm sure my version of the fight would have had errors as well, no matter how many times I double checked it. |
| SnarkHunter02-03-04, 08:27 PM | I expected much feedback and the board does not dissapoint! I'll try to cover as much as I can before my rule governend behavior causes me to study into the wee hours of the night. In no particular order: Jindl could not charge after casting Air walk because all movement up or down is at half speed. Since Harvester maintained a minimum distance of 120 feet (and commonly behind pillars as well) from the center of the arena, I deemed this unfeasable. So charge speed of 140/2=70+reach, not enough to get to harvester. In fact I had covered the possibility of sword and board casters by not including Harvesters shield in the fight. In his tactics he said enter on Nightengale with a lance and thats all he got. This also is why he was able to get an AoO with his lance and hit Nightingale on the head in one round. For the repel wood. First of all I have a question of interpretation. When I was running it I basicly left it in place from Jindls original starting place since it said "the path is set and you can go elsewere...". Its possible that this would have swung the fight as jindle could have repeatedly affected Harv with it. Actually I think the way I did was still right. About the wooden holy symbol-I hadn't noticed that before but since harvester choose to be pushed back with his lance I assume he would have kept the symbol (as he did his arrows). Mounted Combat twice was a big mistake, sorry about that. But allowing mounted comabt with undead to be used only on the persons turn...that as was said was never formerly (with a vote) agreed on. I had considered it, but eventually decided that a -5 penalty on all roles was enough. If a majority of board members disagree with that interpretation then we should have a vote and iron that out then (perhaps tack it on to the vote about horseshoes?). For interupting the charge, Jindl's init was already before Harvs, I'm not sure why I changed that... Random reversals suck sorry. The greater dispelling stuff (all of it) was a huge mistake on my part. Again don't know why I didn't catch that. The Arrowhawks I had again considered just that action. But I didn't want to think to much for them. That kind of tactical thinking, I decided, really should require orders from on high and without speaking the langauge (Auran in this case) I didn't think that justified. Int of 10 not withstanding. The AC...Nazi terrorist gremlins clearly hijacked my keyboard and replaced all the correct numbers with their damn dirty lies. I hate those gremlins so much. Because (as I said above) it was never posible for jindl to charge, and already had the produce flame running, I thought doing that was better then being pecked to death by swords for the next few rounds. Once I realized that the next 10 rounds of the fight would be very similar to the previous 5 I thought using the heal scroll would of been a waste of resources. I think thats everything, until the next round anyway. I'm off to study for many hours but I'll try to be back on...oh Thursday I suppose. Everyone should be ready for their respective fights. |
| Jindl02-04-04, 01:49 AM | @Snark - Just a quick reply, since its really late here... Jindl speaks Auran. :D :P :P ;) Also, the Herrix vs Dr. Dre fight is posted. Sorry it took so long. Wow, I ran 2 fights today and played in my weekly RL game for 6 hours. I'm DnD'd out (for today at least). G'night. -Jindl |
| cellardweller02-04-04, 04:43 AM | Just making sure that we are all using Ring of Counterspelling in the same way. Looking around at the characters using them the majority (but not all) seems to have decided on: 1) Spell cast into the ring must be pre-declared 2) Spell does not count towards daily spells. The same would apply to spell-storing items. Any disagreements with the proposition that this be made official? @Mo, no fight again this week please. |
| Tharkos02-04-04, 05:34 AM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket @Jonah. Said orc with greatsword in both hands and wanted to drink a healing potion would work like this. 1-5' back 2-lets go one hand [free] 3-draws healing potion[move] 4-drinks healing potion[std] --next round-- 5-ready sword [mv] 6-5' forward 7-swing batter, batter, SWING![std] Would the Orc be able to use the 5' move in round two because he already used a move action ? I am pretty sure he would not be able to use a full attack ... ONE attack in round two at most because he already used that move action (unless he has quick draw, right ?). |
| cellardweller02-04-04, 05:51 AM | Originally posted by Tharkos Would the Orc be able to use the 5' move in round two because he already used a move action ? you can always take a 5' step. SRD You can take a move action in place of a standard action. If you move no actual distance in a round (commonly because you have swapped your move for one or more equivalent actions), you can take one 5-foot step either before, during, or after the action. Originally posted by Tharkos I am pretty sure he would not be able to use a full attack ... ONE attack in round two at most because he already used that move action (unless he has quick draw, right ?). [/B] I don't think Tellish was implying a full attack with his baseball reference. |
| Tharkos02-04-04, 06:19 AM | Originally posted by cellardweller I don't think Tellish was implying a full attack with his baseball reference. Well he wrote [std] at the end of the attack line and when you take a move action you cant take a standard action ... :confused: |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-04-04, 07:31 AM | Originally posted by Tharkos Well he wrote [std] at the end of the attack line and when you take a move action you cant take a standard action ... :confused: So what your saying is that you can't draw a sword and attack? You can't move and cast a spell? So now we know where MB's bong went to. :D Tellish |
| Moherajikuyx02-04-04, 08:01 AM | Originally posted by Magagumo @MOh In the future, lets not give people such an easy chance to find ZOrander, eh? I'd appreciate it ;) Yeah you're right, I guess that the know-from-where thing is melee-only. I read it during the fight without realizing this (range != reach!!). Sorry. cellar - noted everyone - as the last fights were published wednesday, I've got to delay a bit... I'll see this evening if there are the conditions for the pairings, else they'll have to be tomorrow. |
| SnarkHunter02-04-04, 08:34 AM | @Jindl... Darn you Gremlins! DARN YOUUUUUUU! |
| Tharkos02-04-04, 09:08 AM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket So what your saying is that you can't draw a sword and attack? You can't move and cast a spell? Sorry about that confusion on my part ... I was confusing "standard attack action" (which is a single attack) with a "full round attack action" (which gives you the full attack sequence). |
| Caterane02-04-04, 09:08 AM | @Mo: Vandaeris bumps to lvl 6 and the Harvester does not make a monster fight. @all: Felix Rancaster is an 1 to 1 copy of the Harvester. He even uses the same equipment as I had at that level. Can we forbid this please? @Kaigan: That`s lame. |
| JonahBlack02-04-04, 09:20 AM | @Caterane Looks like level 5 is Grimlock and two of your characters. Since I don't think you can fight yourself (I may be wrong), I'll leave it up to you: Who wants to fight the Orcish berserker, Harvester II, or Dr. Dre? Edit: I didn't see your last post. Looks like I'm fighting Harvester II. |
| Arstimis02-04-04, 09:47 AM | @Cat: actually..your being kinda lame about it. are you saying since Rito is a monk and uses his fists, that i cant be a monk and use my fists. Kaigan just wanted to be a rider with a lance...which does the most damage. There is no way he could have known what Harvy I had at low levels because he just got on the boards a month ago. Felix has different stats, different skills, different spells, different weapon, and different feats from harvy II He has different stats, different skills, different spells, and different weapons from harvy I and for both he has a different personality, which makes the character. I really dont like how you call him lame because he made a cleric lancer, and you have a cleric lancer when you have no clue what he plans on doing with it. Be a little more curteous |
| Alathar Vierce02-04-04, 10:03 AM | @ Cat: At the start alot of builds will look similar to each other, it was just min/maxed the way he seen fit at the time. By your logic on this, I could also claim any person that uses spiked chain to trip and has expertise/improved trip to be a copy of AV. Its rather hard to make a core build and keep everything unique. |
| Tharkos02-04-04, 10:13 AM | Originally posted by Caterane @Mo: Vandaeris bumps to lvl 6 and the Harvester does not make a monster fight. @all: Felix Rancaster is an 1 to 1 copy of the Harvester. He even uses the same equipment as I had at that level. Can we forbid this please? @Kaigan: That`s lame. ^^^^ ROFLMAO Instead of being flattered by someone copying "his" style he is afraid of loosing if someone is as "effective" as he is (i.e. uses the same tactic). This is so ridiculous it makes me laugh. No one owns any design and if two characters with exactly the same stats fight each other its going to be the true Arena fight, because then better tactics will decide who wins (and to a small part luck). |
| Moherajikuyx02-04-04, 10:27 AM | I like having copies: it pleases my huge ego :D Originally posted by Alathar Vierce Its rather hard to make a core build and keep everything unique. Hehe, look at the new kobold this week in awe. Core builds CAN be unique. |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-04-04, 10:28 AM | Personally i'd be flattered if someone took one of my builds and tried to improve on it. Bilo and Kelek had similar births, but clearly they have gone on seperate paths each with their own strengths and weaknesses and they are definately unique individuals. I actually had no idea there was a rogue/wiz in the arena when i made Kelek, until i built him and and then Bilo posted something like, "Hey ToK, a rogue/wiz eh? Now where have i seen that before?" Also, how many Barbarian/Fighters have we seen begin their careers as such? Too many to count, they aren't all cookie cutters. Tellish @MO: reminder that Hurtz/Kelek will sit out this week, since we all know your mnemonic abilities. :D |
| Alathar Vierce02-04-04, 10:29 AM | Yeah I seen that today, and to be honest more power to the lil bugger heh. and I agree mo, a copy is the simpliest form of flattery, I mean everyone can use an ego boost heh I suppose I should get angry at all those bar/fighters that started after AV, but really in the end does it matter that much? lol:D |
| Jindl02-04-04, 10:56 AM | @Mo - Only 2 characters active, only 2 fights, (to get 1 credit). Can I please Moderate the Aiki Auk vs Ion fight. I like modding' the kobolds... The Elder is going inactive, and will be replaced. I am working on an improved version (kinda like how Iron is really an improved version of Bonanza). -Jindl |
| Ethendril02-04-04, 01:05 PM | Felix Rancaster is an 1 to 1 copy of the Harvester. And I thought Harvester II was a copy of the Harvester...now I'm really confused.;) |
| Caterane02-04-04, 01:14 PM | Nah, Harv 2 is completely different. Different feats, domains, stats and he`ll even ride no mount later, fights with two weapons and so on. It`s only the name, which is similar. Well, I don`t say that I have the copyrights for mounted combat feats, nor lance chargers, nor strength/destruction domain combo, nor Ftr1/CleX builds, nor anything else, but if all comes together that makes me really suspicious. If I want to play a druid I would make sure that I don`t copy Jindl. But that`s just my opinion. Go on, play the Harve...err Felix. And sorry about the lame. Oh and Ebelin challenges Rito. I need a victory :D |
| Kaigan02-04-04, 01:39 PM | Don't judge a book by its cover Harv...errr..Felix will be different :D |
| Caterane02-04-04, 01:42 PM | Instead of being flattered by someone copying "his" style he is afraid of loosing if someone is as "effective" as he is (i.e. uses the same tactic). This is so ridiculous it makes me laugh. I don`t know why I just don`t ignore this nonsense, pulled completely by the hair, but I want to know where I said that I am afraid of losing because a 10 levels lower character could use better tactics than me??? Ah I understand, you just took the opportunity to give me another knock on the head - the fuel for every second post. If you check my tactics you`ll notice that they are really detailed and well-thought, unlike some people who just have "exp.retreat + color spray" in all their 5 fights. @Kaigan: Ok. If you say so. I`m curious. |
| barrel_master02-04-04, 01:51 PM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket @Cat: the hydra gets AoO's with ALL its heads. Since Bruno was a 10-headed Hydra, that's 10 AoO's...and besides, they were taken against the poor bookie at the end of the fight, whom surely could not slay Bruno. lol Tellish Could Bruno even turn into a Hydra... in the polymorph discreiption it says it acts like alter self and alter self states that you can't turn into a creature that is more then 1 size catagory larger then you. Just a question... |
| Jindl02-04-04, 02:24 PM | @barrel - As the resident Arena shifter ... let me try to answer that one. Yes, Alter self limits forms within one size category. Yes, Polymorph references Alter Self (damn WoTC for this.) But, since Polymorph gives new guidelines for the form (different HD caps, different size restrictions, can't assume gaseous or incorporeal), I think that the max size is not directly limited anymore (though the HD cap does put a pretty effective limit on size.) -Jindl |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-04-04, 02:43 PM | @sshuit: I think the mw camo-cloak and soft soled shoes are a little over the top. So, i can pay 50gp for a +2, or 2500gp for a +5? hmm...Something is a little off here. Just thought i'd mention it. I'm pretty sure we discussed it and thought it abusive. Otherwise i'm sure EVERY gladiator that would ever think that their character may someday have to use h/ms would buy these. BUT, i could be wrong, and if they are allowed, i'll be editing my characters asap before pairings are announced. Tellish |
| ^Rayne^02-04-04, 03:06 PM | In the Arms and Equipment Guide there are shoes that give a +1 move silently improvement and only cost 10gp. I know that book isn't core material but I think that is as close as one is going to get to getting a nice bonus at a low price. In that same book there is a Forester's Cloak that grants +1 to hide checks (only in high forest) that costs 20gp. His MW versions of these items do seem to bend the rules significantly. Superior items should be superior but they shouldn't be giving more than a +1 bonus in the case of Move Silently and Hide checks or they would be unbalancing. This is just my opinion but if the book intended a whole slew of MW shoes and MW cloaks it would have detailed them in the Player Handbook 'gear' section. Also I asked a question about 'Splash Weapons' yesterday and no one bothered to answer my question about it. Could anyone please give me an answer on that? |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-04-04, 03:18 PM | @^rayne^: Not sure why they made it a full round to prepare. I guess to use them back to back in a fight, you'd have to prepare several at once. If you have say 5 acid flasks and your hiding around safely, you could prep all 5, and then use them as needed. Nothing in the wording indicates that you need to use it right away like a 'grenade', in such a way that it's like 'pull the pin, and throw' kinda thing. Tellish |
| Jindl02-04-04, 03:19 PM | Originally posted by ^Rayne^ In the book it says it takes a Full-Round action to prepare to throw a splash weapon. It mentions going to page 158 for farther information on what occurs when a splash weapons is thrown. My question is why does it take a full round action to prepare a splash weapon? It isn't a maltov cocktale that needs to be lit first and page 158 doesn't expain why this process takes so long. Also does that mean one spends the entire round preparing to throw the thing but not actually throw it till the next round? The whole description of why this takes so long is very vague and I would like some specifics on this. The other Full round actions make a lot of sense but this one doesn't, and I'm wondering can a player start with a splash weapon in hand to lessen this enormous wasted time and make the splash attack in the same round if they are within range of their target? The only reason I can see this was done and not explained is they don't have a good reason why it takes so long but they were concerned about balance since splash weapons do not require any specific weapon proficiency. If you are looking for a logical reason why, I don't have one. But, regardless, the rules are quite clear that preparing a splash weapon to be thrown is a full round action. Throwing the weapon is a separate standard action. Drawing the splash weapon to prepare it is a move action. So, if you start with it in your belt you ... spend a move action to draw it, spend a standard action to begin preparing it, spend a standard action to finish preparing it, spend a move action on whatever, and on round 3 you can spend a standard action to throw it. Of course, if you began with the item already in your hand, you can simply spend a full round preparing it, then a standard action throwing it in round 2. Read over Lora "the Lobber" if you want to see a splash weapon gladiator. Reading some of her most recent fights (back when she was an active PC), might help you by seeing this in action. -Jindl |
| ^Rayne^02-04-04, 03:38 PM | ^I guess the question is could the one splash item be prepared before the battle and held ready in one's hand at the beginning of a match ready to throw? I want to have it in my PC's hand at the beginning of the match ready to use and I don't see anything that would say this can't be before the battle. It doesn't say there is a time limit to preparing the item and throwing it so if it is readied and in hand all you would need to do if you were only using one of these splash weapons was to prep it in advance of match and start with it in hand right? |
| Magagumo02-04-04, 03:44 PM | @ Jindl Yea, HD caps definetely fixed the spell... Hydras are the largest beastie I can snag with those HD, though there are a few others that catch my eye... me may see more in the future. @AV Hmm, Nevr is a mounted archer, making him quite different from Zorander. And no one else has an illusionist/necromancer..... where's my hero worship??!! :P :D Ah well, nice to be unique. @Moh, 1 fight for me this week, I'll let others *cough, Jindl, cough* get more credits ^_~. Re: Splash Weapons- I suppose entering with a prepared one in hand wouldn't be bad. I do know the "logic" behind this was balance... imagine the Rapid Shot, Two-Weapon Fighting, Quick Draw halfling fghter which could hurl three of these suckers a round as touch attacks? That nukes just about everyone at low levels... |
| ^Rayne^02-04-04, 03:44 PM | Hehe, look at the new kobold this week in awe. Core builds CAN be unique. Moherajikuyx so I take it no one has built a kobold like my new one on the arena threads? I've already worked on progressions for this PC to 20th level and I think he will turn out to be one cool bugger by then if all goes as planned. ;) |
| sshuit02-04-04, 04:58 PM | @tok, I asked about it here and no one seemed to mind so I bought them :P If you ask me, it should either be 1) Only those items listed in the PHB or 2) Any skill can have an item that grants a MW +2 tool bonus It's all the same to me. +2 hide / MS isn't really so broken. Just allow +2 spot glasses and +2 listen earwax cleaners :D Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket @sshuit: I think the mw camo-cloak and soft soled shoes are a little over the top. So, i can pay 50gp for a +2, or 2500gp for a +5? hmm...Something is a little off here. Just thought i'd mention it. I'm pretty sure we discussed it and thought it abusive. Otherwise i'm sure EVERY gladiator that would ever think that their character may someday have to use h/ms would buy these. BUT, i could be wrong, and if they are allowed, i'll be editing my characters asap before pairings are announced. Tellish |
| Jindl02-04-04, 05:09 PM | Re: MW Tools - I don't see any problem with it. Just keep in mind that it is a circumstance bonus, and will not stack with other circumstance bonuses. I've seen the mistake of stacking the bonuses before, particularly with stacking mw. ride tools with a military saddle. -Jindl |
| JonahBlack02-04-04, 05:13 PM | Originally posted by sshuit +2 listen earwax cleaners :D I am totally going to buy +2 listen earwax cleaners for Grimlock... |
| MotherBast02-04-04, 05:35 PM | Hey MO, just to be clear, Candy has a cohort. Since the majoraty have voted for 25 pt. buy, I built the cohort that way. I also noticed that Hanz's cohort Brutus is 25 pt. buy. I don't know of any other cohorts right now. So, what I'm asking is, why did you recently say we would be using DMG stats? Even though that was my suggestion, it recived only 1 vote (mine), where pt. buy recived 10..... It seems we should be using point buy. Anyway, if were not for some reason, let me know so I can edit Candy's cohort. |
| SnarkHunter02-04-04, 05:45 PM | @mother The change from elite stats to a 25 point buy is quite limited. I included that in my tactics if spike wanted to retrochange him and I think Brutus got like -2 dex and +2 wis. Nothing major. @Mo any chance we could get pairings tonight? Would be nice to be back on track and all. Edit: Btw, for the level 11 fights, I had Bilo sit out last week so I think that counts for the doesn't play credit. Thanks! |
| Ethendril02-04-04, 05:49 PM | I don't know of any other cohorts right now. @MB: Dusk has a cohort now, too. |
| Alathar Vierce02-04-04, 06:10 PM | @Mag: If I was any decent at moderating I'd create a little follower for you :P But alas I need to keep it to one character heh |
| LLMadCow02-05-04, 12:21 AM | @Mo - I am ready for the pairings! Please give me one fight this week, a low level would be nice to warm up to. Cliodhna d'Elrich is ready and so is Herrix Ignatius. Thanks... |
| cellardweller02-05-04, 12:28 AM | That makes 7 @L6. Gorga will voluntarliy sit out this week to make it even. |
| ^Rayne^02-05-04, 12:50 AM | I have to give props to everyone who currently has a 2nd level PC waiting for fights. They all look freak'n scary! I think the weakest of the bunch might be mine (Aiki Auk) and getting a victory against anyone in the bunch is going to prove to be a very difficult fight and rely heavily on luck for my part if I get a win. Just wanted to let everyone know how impressed I am with the PC builds. Any one of them would be a nightmare to battle for a standard PC build most players would create. |
| LLMadCow02-05-04, 02:06 AM | Originally posted by cellardweller That makes 7 @L6. Gorga will voluntarliy sit out this week to make it even. If you mean Smushy is the odd man out, do not have him sit out! I am entering 2 Lvl 6 characters - Clìodhna d'Elrich and Herrix Ignatius. (Clìodhna d'Elrich has been since the 1st of the year.) Clìodhna d'Elrich, and Herrix Ignatius make for 2 out of the 8 characters... |
| cellardweller02-05-04, 02:23 AM | Originally posted by LLMadCow If you mean Smushy is the odd man out, do not have him sit out! I am entering 2 Lvl 6 characters - Clìodhna d'Elrich and Herrix Ignatius. (Clìodhna d'Elrich has been since the 1st of the year.) Clìodhna d'Elrich, and Herrix Ignatius make for 2 out of the 8 characters... <moves smushy back to ready status> |
| Tharkos02-05-04, 05:28 AM | Originally posted by Caterane I don`t know why I just don`t ignore this nonsense, pulled completely by the hair, but I want to know where I said that I am afraid of losing because a 10 levels lower character could use better tactics than me??? Ah I understand, you just took the opportunity to give me another knock on the head - the fuel for every second post. If you check my tactics you`ll notice that they are really detailed and well-thought, unlike some people who just have "exp.retreat + color spray" in all their 5 fights. There have been several posts criticizing your "narrow mindedness" about character concepts ... why am I not surprised you pick mine again to say its personal ? Maybe if you DIDNT post this kind of stuff it could improve my personal opinion of you ? But thats just my view of this and it certainly isnt in the rulebooks but rather common sense ... Well how do you think you can design any worthwile tactics if you just have ONE "offensive" spell ? I am NOT someone who will spend all of his money on one-shot stuff for just a single victory and at 6 / 10 hit points and a crappy AC loosing it FAST is a fact (just ask Ilene ...). I also wont use tactics which wont work in a regular campaign such as the "why dont you use a tower shield" proposal from you. This puts your "silly remarks count" to 3 in just two posts ... |
| Caterane02-05-04, 07:41 AM | There have been several posts criticizing your "narrow mindedness" about character concepts ... why am I not surprised you pick mine again to say its personal ? The others answered my question and expressed their opinion while you came with me being afraid of losing because of inferior tactics (which is completely pulled by the hair) and then told us all how ridiculous this is. That`s the reason why I picked your post. And there are also 2 silly comments in this post and another two in the very last one. Tharkos, believe it or not but I have no wish to argue with you. I don´t know how this began but I think it was right after the second loss of Laness, both moderated by me. We can now continue this silly game until the end of time thus only anoying each other and the others, or we can just both shut up, hold back thing better left unsaid, and concentrate more on the things why we are here: fun with the arena. Cat @Snaaark: Hey Snarky, what`s about Skymoon? Does he fight this week or not? I want to challenge Rita, you know, and you once told me that you only want to run one character a week so why not picking Bilo. He`s cooler anyway :D |
| Pitlords02-05-04, 07:55 AM | damn double ids :\ |
| Moherajikuyx02-05-04, 08:08 AM | *prepared splash items* I think it's perfectly OK, but they should count as buffs and be written on the sheet I think... Or not? It's an equipment after all... Hmm. Let's let it for this week. *point buy for cohorts* Mag you lier :P the vote isn't like you say, it's about 40%. Looks like the new ones voted thinking that without pointbuy, it would be flat scores: this is not so, the suggestion is to use the DMG elite stats. We'll keep the poll open till next week. It's not such a big change, so MB I don't see any problems with changing later. *LLMadCow* welcome back to modding! :) *ToK* This time I remembered :P *Tharkos & Cat* - are you two married? :blush: *MW tools* hm, I don't like the ones to spot, hide, listen and ms. I think the best way is to let mw versions of only the items existing in commerce. Shall we post a vote on this? *myself* I just got a job offer from Florence... I hope I'll be able to deal with the arena whatever happens! (No worry I'll give further detail when available) Originally posted by SnarkHunter Edit: Btw, for the level 11 fights, I had Bilo sit out last week so I think that counts for the doesn't play credit. Thanks! I stopped doing it as there are some possible cheats in that sistem (beware, no one got advantage of them). If one sits out voluntarily, I don't count him as an active pc for what concerns the pc number; the same goes if one is rolled out, but in the latter case, I also give the "out last week" status. If you let all your pcs active, you gain in "out last week"s but you don't have the certainty of what characters will fight. If you want to be sure of a fight you have to make your pcs stand out and lose the status bonus. I think it's pretty balanced. Sorry Snark.. PAIRINGS DONE - DON'T EDIT Snark you were rolled out.. Thinking of it, I can leave you the fight, as I was just smashed by Jindl, if you want it (and Jindl agrees). Spike - 2 handed fight means, if you wish to control Spike while I control the elephant. See Harvy vs. the nightmare. |
| Tharkos02-05-04, 09:46 AM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx *Tharkos & Cat* - are you two married? :blush: Luckily NOT ... @Mo ROFL, you did it again but this time Laness gets to fight the same Gladiator back to back ... maybe I need another "title" for that, hehe. |
| SnarkHunter02-05-04, 09:57 AM | No I think I was correct before, that two fights would be enough. |
| Jindl02-05-04, 09:58 AM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Snark you were rolled out.. Thinking of it, I can leave you the fight, as I was just smashed by Jindl, if you want it (and Jindl agrees). Spike - 2 handed fight means, if you wish to control Spike while I control the elephant. See Harvy vs. the nightmare. RE: Minor Pairings Error ... Hey Mo, Tellish set Nevr ready 2 days ago. That means that at level 7, Hanz would sit out do to # of PC's and the match should be Nevr vs Anna. Since Hanz sat out at level 7, Iron must sit out at level 11 due to # of PC's. So yes, I have no prob with Bilo vs Jindl (since that is the way pairings were supposed to turn out.) Please make the change at level 7, so that ToK doesn't get cheated... RE: 2 handed fight ... Last time it took nearly 3 weeks to do this. I don't like it (and I think the others don't like the format either), so I would ask that you guys do the monster fight just like any other arena fight. Note: The time required is not my main complaint. I don't like the idea of players being able to adjust tactics/strategies on the fly, which they cannot do in other arena fights. There are other issues as well, having to do with correcting mistakes that you notice right away, etc... -Jindl |
| Moherajikuyx02-05-04, 10:13 AM | As ToK wanted only 1 pc I asked him to make active Hanz or Kelek instead of Nevrlok, this made 2 levels even. |
| Caterane02-05-04, 10:50 AM | ...and another stupid comment from Tharkos; especially after I offered a truce. Tststs |
| Jindl02-05-04, 11:03 AM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx As ToK wanted only 1 pc I asked him to make active Hanz or Kelek instead of Nevrlok, this made 2 levels even. Ahh, okay. So then we should ignore the "Ready for 2/4" heading that ToK put on Nevr. As for the level 11 fights, Bruno and Brackin just fought last level. Iron and Jindl just fought last level. Jindl and Brackin just fought 2 levels ago. Perhaps we could ignore the rolls in favor of 2 new matchups (that have never happened before). I suggest: Jindl vs Bruno Iron vs Brackin. This would be a lot better than fighting the same people, again and again. On that note, you should change Laness's fight as well (see Tharkos' post above). -Jindl |
| Bishop the Bardican02-05-04, 11:14 AM | Sorry for the dumb question, but I can not find the pairings on any of the three Core Arena threads. My character is Urig the Usurper. I might have been late getting him in for this week, but I would like to see who else is fighting this week. Thanks |
| Caterane02-05-04, 11:15 AM | @Bishop: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=926274#post926274 |
| Moherajikuyx02-05-04, 11:34 AM | Jindl it's a wise idea. We should do it only if all the interested ones agree though. I agree :) Cat & Tharkos - I suggest a pre-matrimoial agreement... :P |
| Ethendril02-05-04, 12:12 PM | @Mo & Cellardwellar: Yesterday I requested that Dusk sit out on the fights this week, but he is slated to fight Smushy for the third time. I noticed that cellardwellar also volunteered to sit out this week, and I'd still rather not have Dusk fight this week, if cellardwellar agrees. I'm planning to retire Dusk. -Ethendril |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-05-04, 12:18 PM | Yup, i changed Nevr's ready status to 02.11.2004 Tellish |
| Magagumo02-05-04, 01:03 PM | @Moh I'm afraid I don't make lies, Moh, just spread them apparently :p Doh! In true Mag fashion, I neglected to mark Zorander as ready for this weeks fighting, despite the fact that he has been quite ready. If Candessa Rain is looking for an opponent, Moh, can you pair the two of us up so we have a chance to outrun Anna? ;) :D This, of course, is up to MB as well. Also, regarding the 11th level fight, I think Jindl has a good idea on this one. I'm not sure the two of us have ever fought (and trust me, I've been trying to catch up). I sense pain in the near future, but I think it would be cool if Jindl v. Bruno and Iron v. Brackin could occur. Just have Cat run the Jindl fight, and Cat run the Brackin fight. @Moh, I notice I'm not running any fights this week. If Candy v. Zorander occurs, then perhaps someone wishing to run that fight could give me theirs? I feel I should be runnign at least one and all :) |
| Caterane02-05-04, 01:05 PM | Just have Cat run the Jindl fight, and Cat run the Brackin fight. :uh-huh: |
| Jindl02-05-04, 02:33 PM | Erhm, I think Magagumo meant for Cat to run the Jindl vs Bruno fight, and Jindl to run the Brackin vs Iron match. Though I requested only two matches (for 1 credit) because I will be out of town on Saturday. Perhaps Magagumo would like to run the Brackin vs Iron match for me? Please? Well, it looks like the change will be made to the level 11 pairings, as long as MotherBast doesn't object... -Jindl Tactics received for Harvester #2 (Caterane). For you others, please get me tactics ASAP. I would really like to be able to run a fight tonight, since I will be out of town on Saturday. |
| JonahBlack02-05-04, 03:54 PM | Jindl: I'll write up tactics for Grimlock as soon as I get home from work (~6pm EST). |
| Ethendril02-05-04, 04:57 PM | What's the maximum strength bonus for a mighty composite longbow? Is it +4, as listed in the PHB, or is there an unlimited damage bonus, as long as you pay the fee for each point of damage bonus? -Ethendril EDIT: Thanks, Jindl. |
| Jindl02-05-04, 05:15 PM | Originally posted by Ethendril What's the maximum strength bonus for a mighty composite longbow? Is it +4, as listed in the PHB, or is there an unlimited damage bonus, as long as you pay the fee for each point of damage bonus? -Ethendril It's unlimited. The PHB does not list a cap of +4 (that was in 3.0 my friend). Indeed, some entries in the MM posess Mighty +5 bows (like the Erynes, for example). So, there is no cap, though the DC to craft one grows higher based on the Mighty bonus. -Jindl @MarketShare - Tactics sent for Anna, Ghost of the Arena. |
| sshuit02-05-04, 05:21 PM | @ll : Roger is actually ready at level 7 if there was anyone at level 6-8 who wanted a fight. and if we could get a mod. My mistake I forgot to set him ready. sshuit |
| MotherBast02-05-04, 05:29 PM | Brackin is ok with fighting Iron instead of Jindl. Candy is ok with fighting Zorander. She had a did not fight tag, so she should have not been made to sit out anyway. And about the Bows, the CW lists may characters as having Mighty +7 bows, so I would also say there is no limit. However, you would have to craft it to have it, as the arena has a rule about not buying anything not listed in the books, so you would have to make your own. Mag, I didn't get a chance to change Candy's cohort, so if our fight happens, remember that the stats are off and he will have DMG stats. Cat and Tharkos: This is actually the second time I have seen Cat ask to have the hatchet burried. Tharkos, you have ignored the request both times. I for one have grown weary of the two of you bickering. Please, just for my sake, exceept Cat's olive branch and put this fude to rest. |
| Jindl02-05-04, 05:36 PM | RE: Mighty Bows - I would say that you can buy mighty +? bows, since the rules for it's price are clear. If you want a mighty +5 bow, shell out the 800? gp for it. It is not a "custom" item that would have to be self-crafted. Also, it's "feud". I figured someone from the deep south would know that, MB. :P :heehee -Jindl Okay, preparing tactics for Nox (and Jindl) vs Tony (and Bruno). |
| Pitlords02-05-04, 05:48 PM | - Ethendril: sorry, you even pmed to me... But you did set him ready on the title :\ I'll remove that fight however, effectively, it looks like that cellar didn't want to fight too. - Mag - ok - MB - lol, don't you find them lovable? About Candy: I go mainly by sheet title when doing the pairings. - sshuit - doh!! I had the impression of forgetting some of yours :( Tellish, u could make Nevrlok fight to give Peter a chance? Magagumo would be the mod, he's the only one without a fight yet. |
| Ethendril02-05-04, 05:52 PM | - Ethendril: sorry, you even pmed to me... But you did set him ready on the title :\ Sorry, the PM was intended to supercede the "Ready for" line. I forgot to change that, too. Also, since I have 0 characters this week, should I have one more credit? :) Thanks, Mo. -Ethendril |
| Tharkos02-05-04, 06:00 PM | Shouldnt the polls 22 and 23 be closed by now ? For future polls maybe the date for the start should be added as well and then maybe two weeks should be given to vote ... |
| MotherBast02-05-04, 06:00 PM | darn post x2 |
| MotherBast02-05-04, 06:00 PM | Jindl, while I am indeed from the deep south, I am not an uneducated hick, though the majority of my friends and family are, LOL. But, despite my higher learning, my spelling remains horrably, horrably bad. |
| ^Rayne^02-05-04, 06:20 PM | Jindl, I'll get Aiki Auk's tactics to you soon. I hope I can think up some better strategies than I have so far because this battle looks way out of my league. I don't know what Aiki Auk was thinking challenging a Grappling master? ;) |
| Jindl02-05-04, 06:44 PM | Originally posted by MotherBast But, despite my higher learning, my spelling remains horrably, horrably bad. :rofl: :heehee :rofl: -Jindl (who is from North Carolina, ya'll ) @Mag / Mo - How about giving Mag the Iron vs Brackin fight. I'm gonna be out of town Saturday and I only wanted 2 fights for 1 credit... Re: Pairings after pairings are done - There's a possible cheat in the system in granting a request like the one sshuit just made. I'm not accusing sshuit (or anyone else for that matter) of doing it on purpose, merely pointing out the potential for abuse. "Keep your character unready until after pairings to avoid fighting a certain opponent, then make your character ready and fight another player who did the same with their PC." Plus, its not really fair that Anna and Hanz are paired because noone else is ready, and then suddenly 2 other characters become ready and match up. It totally takes away from the random pairings aspect to do this (kinda like getting a doesn't fight credit for volunteering to sit out). Another aspect of the "cheat" is that higher level pairings were determined by doesn't fight rolls based on the # of PC's. Had "Peter" been set to ready, then Hanz would have sat out the level 7's, due to # of PC's. This would mean that Iron would sit out the level 11's due to # of PC's. So, "Peter" sitting out resulted in Bilo having to sit out, which shows that a player using the "not ready / pair me after pairings" technique can control the higher level pairings. Again, I'm sure sshuit isn't trying to manipulate the system, I am just trying to show the potential for abuse. Its a possible cheat in the system that we should try to avoid, so I would suggest holding fast to the rules that there are no pairings after pairings are done. Just my two pennies. -Jindl |
| JonahBlack02-05-04, 06:56 PM | @ Jindl, I just sent you Grimlock's tactics. Email me if you have any questions/problems. |
| kattattack2202-05-04, 07:18 PM | Ony's tatics have been sent to SnarkHunter via PM. |
| ^Rayne^02-05-04, 08:02 PM | Jindl my tactics are ready for Aiki Auk but they are too big to fit in an email. How do you want them sent to you? (as two PM's, email?) |
| ^Rayne^02-05-04, 08:13 PM | I have received tactics for Felix Rancaster. |
| Jindl02-05-04, 08:22 PM | Originally posted by ^Rayne^ Jindl my tactics are ready for Aiki Auk but they are too big to fit in an email. How do you want them sent to you? (as two PM's, email?) Too big? And you're only 2nd level. Jindl's tactics didn't get too big for 1 PM until he was 9th level. Well, split it into 2 PM's and send it my way, little kobold... -Jindl |
| ^Rayne^02-05-04, 08:25 PM | Already did... ;) Normally it wouldn't be too big except this fight is trickier than normal. Also I'm a bit wordy! ;) |
| barrel_master02-05-04, 08:54 PM | Regarding some of the fights missed... would it be easier for you moh if we posted on the forums that we want to fight or would you rather have us PM you... whatever is easier for you... even if the status quo is what you like best. |
| barrel_master02-05-04, 09:00 PM | Originally posted by ^Rayne^ Already did... ;) Normally it wouldn't be too big except this fight is trickier than normal. Also I'm a bit wordy! ;) Just keep in mind... the purpose of tactics is to properly comunicate your characters actions to your DM. Unfortunately, if your tactics are too long your DM is bound to miss something which may or may not be important. |
| ^Rayne^02-05-04, 09:07 PM | I don't think they are unclear, and Jindle didn't have any trouble interpretting my purpose in the last fight so I'm sure I'm okay this time around also. Thanks for the advice though, I want to keep things clear but I also don't want to be too vague either. Hopefully I achieved the balance and I also added some minor role-playing additions I like to provide for the DM in case they have time to work them into a fight. |
| Jindl02-06-04, 12:03 AM | @Rayne - Tactics received. Also, some of the RP stuff (which you repeated from last week) can be added to the default tactics for your character. Stuff like how to react when brought to 0 hps, how to react when your foe is between -1 and -10, etc. Just write it into default tactics and you won't have to repeat it everytime you send tactics to a mod. :D -Jindl |
| ^Rayne^02-06-04, 01:25 AM | ^Sorry. |
| ^Rayne^02-06-04, 03:53 AM | Ethendril, I couldn't send you Vryk's Tactics because your PM box was full! Please empty it so I can send these to you soon! ;) Rayne |
| Moherajikuyx02-06-04, 04:30 AM | Jindl - ack, I'm waiting for Mag's ok. cheats - yes it's possible, though I'm using a "gentle" approach for now. Shall anyone get advantage of the system, by repeating the not ready behaviour, I'd have to change and be more strict, with everyone. If anyone notices any repeated behaviour I'd be glad to know. bm - the easiest thing - which would have solved all this week's problems - is editing the sheet title, as I open all the characters when doing the pairings, to check if they're ready and if there are challenges, and all that is in the character sheet. At times I forget to open the inactive pcs, though: for them it's better to make it clear here. I try to read all the posts. A pm or a mail are perfectly fine as well. |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-06-04, 06:11 AM | Nevr will remain inactive. My time commitment this week is very short as i have things planned for satruday and also includes some overtime on sunday. Tellish *EDIT* in fact, just throwin in the inactive list at the bottom for a while. |
| Magagumo02-06-04, 10:44 AM | No!! My plan to destroy Cat has failed!! :D Yes, Jind, I did mean for you to run the Iron v. Brackin, but would be happy to do it myself. <-- @ Moh Ok, so Zorander is fighting Candy, and Bruno is fighting Jindl, and I'm running Iron v. Brackin, let me know if I missed anything guys ^_^; @MB By DMG stats, assume you mean it has a 25 point buy? Or did you use 15,14,13,12,10,9,8? I have no problem with either, but I missed the boat on what you're talking about Bast ^_~ |
| Jindl02-06-04, 11:26 AM | @Mo/Mag/MB - I'll forward Iron's tactics to Mag. MB, please send Brackin's tactics straight to Mag. Mo, please change the pairings (and sadly, subtract a credit) since Mag will run the fight. Also, Mo, you can move the Elder into the inactive list (just like ToK is doing with Nevr) because I will be retiring/remaking him soon. -Jindl |
| SnarkHunter02-06-04, 11:27 AM | @Mag: That ws 7 numbers Mag ;). Anywho I've sent tactics for Moon and I'm working on Hanz right now. I've also got tactics from Delynyl and Ony. And uh...I prefer a french roast to most other blends but I'll take a dark colombian in a pinch, |
| Jindl02-06-04, 11:33 AM | Originally posted by SnarkHunter And uh...I prefer a french roast to most other blends but I'll take a dark colombian in a pinch, :whatsthis I've got tactics for everyone except Ion Matzumura. Tactics sent for Anna, working on Jindl's now. -Jindl |
| Ethendril02-06-04, 11:54 AM | Ethendril, I couldn't send you Vryk's Tactics because your PM box was full! Please empty it so I can send these to you soon! My box keeps saying full, but I have no undeleted messages in there. I'm not sure what the problem is. Please use my email. -Ethendril EDIT: Problem solved. Thanks again, Jindl. |
| Jindl02-06-04, 01:03 PM | Originally posted by Ethendril My box keeps saying full, but I have no undeleted messages in there. I'm not sure what the problem is. Please use my email. -Ethendril If it has been saving your PM's that you sent, then the "Sent" box could be what's taking up all your space. You should check all the boxes, just to make sure. -Jindl |
| Caterane02-06-04, 01:27 PM | Ethendril, just give us your password and we fix it :D Tactics sent for Ebelin, Harvester, and Vandaeris. Tactics received for Skymoon and Kelek. |
| Ethendril02-06-04, 01:51 PM | Ethendril, just give us your password and we fix it Password is enaretac. Thanks for your help! |
| Jindl02-06-04, 01:55 PM | Ethendril, just give us your password and we fix it a. bad idea b. bad idea c. delete that post d. really bad idea -Jindl |
| Ethendril02-06-04, 02:15 PM | a. bad idea b. bad idea c. delete that post d. really bad idea For anyone thinking what a bad idea this is: enaretac=caterane backward=not my password. EDIT: Cat was just messing with me, so I was returning the favor. |
| Magagumo02-06-04, 02:44 PM | *Reads Ethendril's post, laughs* Thx Ethendril, I needed a bit of humour this week, its been a long one and I'm ready to collapse. @Snark Ha!! You obviously haven't been truly min/maxing your chars, Snark, if you forgot the 7th stat.... which is... *ninja vanish!* Yea, :), I got my elite stat and non-elite stat wires crossed ^_~ Hooumm, I suppose I need to get Zorander's and Bruno's tactics out tonight... this will be time-consuming :whatsthis |
| Caterane02-06-04, 02:58 PM | Sagan the Wise: (Plyr #1): *Gesticulating wildly* I was sent.. from the West!! to this arena here. Killik (Thri-kreen, Plyr #2): And who sent you, hu-man? Sagan: I was sent by the Great Lion of the Sky who lives... to the West!! Killik: Ah yessss, the Great Lion!! Sworn enemy of the Dark Jackal fo the Moon! Sagan: *gasps* You know of the Dark Jackal??! Killik: I was once a follower of his!! But I was decieved, and now too serve your Great... Lion of the Sky Sagan: Who Lives in the West!! -The madness of newly rped characters for my own Arena, at 4 AM! Ever thought about using a Campaign Setting? |
| Magagumo02-06-04, 03:06 PM | I'm afraid I'm not following you, Cat.... Why should I use a campaign setting for an Arena like ours? Or do you have some difficulty with the Great Lion of the Western sky ;) Of course, my Arena is set in Otaria, word of MtG's Odyssey block, so I think that would count anyways :) |
| Ethendril02-06-04, 03:07 PM | I have received tactics for Urig and Silencius (assuming Tellish still wants to use the same ones sent last week). -Ethendril |
| Alathar Vierce02-06-04, 03:09 PM | Will be sending tactics withen a half our or so Eth, just finishing lunch and I'll have em typed up Emailed tactics Ethendril |
| ^Rayne^02-06-04, 03:49 PM | Ethendril, Vryk's Tactics are in your PM box. Thanks for running the show, and have fun leading the battle. :) |
| Virgil02-06-04, 03:54 PM | never mind, didnt mean to post and delete wont work haha |
| Ethendril02-06-04, 03:56 PM | Tactics received for Vryk and Derezan. -Ethendril |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-06-04, 04:06 PM | Originally posted by Ethendril I have received tactics for Urig and Silencius (assuming Tellish still wants to use the same ones sent last week). -Ethendril Yes i do wish to use the same ones. thx for asking though. I fear for anyone's intelligence who didn't see the "caterane" thing. Tellish *EDIT* I hate to be a stickler for the rules, but deadline has come and gone. I will be running ALL fights tomorrow with defaults if i have to. This weekend is a very busy one for me. Thus far i have only recieved LL's. |
| ^Rayne^02-06-04, 04:29 PM | MotherBast, please send me Drakiel Mourning's tactics soon so I can get the battle done and up today if possible. Sorry to rush you but I would love to get this party started and finished today if possible. ;) I look forward to running your PC in this battle and I'm ready to go. Rayne |
| Magagumo02-06-04, 04:52 PM | @ T_o_K Having just learned that I was officially fighting Candy today, and with me just getting free from class and work, I ams ending them to you within 10 min. Besides, I thought the deadline was at least 4 PM EST?? |
| MotherBast02-06-04, 05:11 PM | I will be sending all tactics shortly. I too thought the deadline was not up untill tonight. |
| Arstimis02-06-04, 05:39 PM | @ TOK: I am with Magagumo and MotherBast here....and i just sent my tactics..if you accept them..... |
| Tharkos02-06-04, 05:53 PM | Killik (Thri-kreen, Plyr #2): And who sent you, hu-man? Shouldnt this rather be "Klktakktokk' Katlakkk" or something like it, hehe ? Or do you have the universal translator from Star Trek ? Thri-Kreen are more fun if you punish the player by having to talk "Kk'kXxkK"-ish ... ;) |
| Moherajikuyx02-06-04, 06:42 PM | Spike Goes Wild With The Elephant (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2515244#post2515244)! |
| Ethendril02-06-04, 07:03 PM | Silencius vs. Kedi posted. -Ethendril EDIT: I will most likely run and post Vryk vs. Urig and Derezan vs. Sintius on Monday morning. |
| ^Rayne^02-06-04, 07:57 PM | Drakiel Mourning's tactics have been received thanks Motherbast! |
| Mercy02-06-04, 08:42 PM | @sshuit - sorry about the rant on the earlier fight. Tactics sent for the Targ vs. The Professor fight. You notice they are not quite the "round 1+: take no actions" :angel: tactics in my rant. |
| Magagumo02-06-04, 10:02 PM | Oh, he does that of his own volition. His full name is Killik Braon Von Jump Alot.... it sounds a lot more impressive in his native tongue. Attentione! Out of Arena Note: If there are GMS here who always wanted to use archdukes or demon lords in their 3.5 games and were afraid of all the changes. Or if you have neutral or evil players who wished to planar ally/binding some fun demon/devil lackey, then direct yourselves to the BOVD boards (Mature Boards in D & D thread), as I will be posting the stats I havwe written up for them over the next couple of days. They've been sitting on my comp for a month now, and Snark suggested I post them. End Attentione! |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-06-04, 10:27 PM | @mag/mb/arstimis: It wasn't meant to be mean, and i thought i posted it that at 4'ish pm est. It wasn't to say i wouldn't accept tactics, i was simply saying that sometime saturday i'll be running all my fights in one shot. So if you wanted it run with your proper tactics that you should try to get them to me by saturday afternoon at the latest. Didn't mean to sound like the gestappo or anything. :D @ALL: question. Anyone figure out certain weapons aren't reduced in size properly? For instance, take the greatsword. A medium creature weilding it does 2d6. A small creature using it does 1d10?! 2d6, going down one size category should be 2d4. Now, lets say this small guy (halfling) wielding the greatsword drinks an enlarge person potion. Now suddenly, the greatsword (back to normal size for a medium creature) does 2d8 instead of 2d6?! There are several weapons like that. And some are the opposite. Just thought i'd stir the waters. Tellish |
| Magagumo02-06-04, 10:39 PM | @T_O_K Hey, as long as you accepted them, I gots no problems :D |
| sshuit02-06-04, 11:08 PM | @mods. I just ran Targ vs. Dre. Would someone be so kind as to double check it for me as I don't want to make too many mistakes. PM me or email s_shuit(at)sympatico.ca sshuit |
| Mercy02-07-04, 02:25 AM | @sshuit - don't worry about having Targ's vs. Dre's fight double checked, I'm not going rant about mistakes. I know its a difficult process to run these fights; I’ve certainly made enough mistakes running my fights. And again I apologize for my rant on the earlier fight. |
| Tharkos02-07-04, 02:58 AM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket @ALL: question. Anyone figure out certain weapons aren't reduced in size properly? For instance, take the greatsword. A medium creature weilding it does 2d6. A small creature using it does 1d10?! 2d6, going down one size category should be 2d4. Now, lets say this small guy (halfling) wielding the greatsword drinks an enlarge person potion. Now suddenly, the greatsword (back to normal size for a medium creature) does 2d8 instead of 2d6?! There are several weapons like that. And some are the opposite. Just thought i'd stir the waters. What did you expect from such a silly system / design team, hehe ? |
| MotherBast02-07-04, 09:14 AM | Grym vs. Oetzi up. enjoy. I will probably get to Oct and jag later today. |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-07-04, 09:58 AM | Kiowen vs Ignatius. Very tense. The flow of the battle changed many times. Hope i didn't mess up to badly. Will begin doing Zorander vs Candy. Tellish |
| Hatzinger02-07-04, 10:06 AM | Thanks for the nice fight, motherbast. I knew it would be good to put up pressure from the beginning.:ayyyy!: |
| Caterane02-07-04, 10:06 AM | I`m writing on my Daggerdale Campaign. Any good sources about the Region Daggerdale/Desertmouth Mountains/Border Forest/Tethyamar anything? Perhaps some Adventure Hooks/Adventures (not the Daggerdale Triology/Doom of Daggerdale; already DM'd that)? Thanks Cat |
| Hatzinger02-07-04, 10:11 AM | Originally posted by Caterane I`m writing on my Daggerdale Campaign. Any good sources about the Region Daggerdale/Desertmouth Mountains/Border Forest? Perhaps some Adventure Hooks/Adventures (not the Daggerdale Triology/Doom of Daggerdale; already DM'd that)? Cat Most important thing: USE THE ENGLISH MATERIAL!!! the german translation is...:tantrum: Dagger Falls = Dolchfall (we call it Durchfall=diarrhoea) Lord Mourngrym = Lord Trauergrimm... |
| Magagumo02-07-04, 10:16 AM | Yea, the 1d10 greatsword issue came up in my game w/ our resident kobold... Snark and I both thought that, logically, the weapon should be 1d8, since a Large longsword... well, you know *sigh* |
| Caterane02-07-04, 10:18 AM | @Hatze: LOL Durchfall. It`s a mystery to me why they translate names into german!? Mourngrym would`ve been fine. The only translation I like more in german is Nesseril (Netheril). I use english material only to keep it in one language, and in english there`s more material available. I also want to incorporate a mass battle (Dalelands Alliance vs a Zhent Army, Battle at Tethyamar Outpost), 1000 on each side and I`m not sure how to handle such a great battle. Perhaps using Warhammer rules? @Mag: about your LONG sig: you don`t want to compensate for something, do you? LOL |
| Hatzinger02-07-04, 10:29 AM | Don´t bother to roll it up in detail. I have never met a player who really would like to read a few pages of mass-combat-rules just to have his character take part in a battle. They just aren´t interested. Even the tabletop players wouldn´t use their *insert tabletop wargame here* rules for D&D. They don´t want to mix these two genres. So just choose an outcome that fits into your campaign and let your players encounter a few enemies on the battlefield. |
| Caterane02-07-04, 10:35 AM | The cool part in my campaign is that it has two different endings depending on the outcome of the battle. Even I don`t know which way it will end and I want to keep it that way. During the campaign the Pc have to fulfill several quests and help different organizations. If successful the befriended organization sends a few troops to aid them. With every fulfilled quest their army increases, and so do their chances in the battle to retake the dwarven kingdom. My plan is to divide the army into detechments consisting of say 20 men (archer squad, infantry squad, mounted squad, etc) and then count them as 1 creature with the number of men being the hp. |
| Bishop the Bardican02-07-04, 10:46 AM | If you wanted to avoid using another rules system for the main battle you could have the battle work much like any other event-based adventure. The PC's are shock troops or royal guard. Pick 4 or 5 scenarios within the battle that could be tackled by a squad, the PC's and some followers. These scenarios could be anything (stealth missions across enemy lines, taking out the other army's shock troops, finding a way to dismantle a magical siege engine) and the relative success or failure could affect later scenarios. Add up all the wins and losses and decide which ending to use. This is a paraphrase of a Dragon article, but I can't remember which month. |
| MotherBast02-07-04, 11:36 AM | Jagath vs. Octavian is done, and posted. enjoy. |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-07-04, 02:35 PM | Candy vs Zorander is done, and posted. enjoy @Ethendril: good job and well done. Tellish *EDIT* Johan Talyana MW Tobacco Pipe (+2 Concentration) 50 gp :rofl: |
| Jindl02-07-04, 02:42 PM | @Cat - tactics resent via email, per your request. -Jindl |
| Caterane02-07-04, 02:47 PM | Excerpt from Candy`s tactic: If he is flying, use my fly. remember the hidious laughter forces a character to fall prone. since it is impossible to be prone while in the air, the character has to fall to the ground to be concidered prone. I don't expect him to fall hard enough to take damage, but it might be important to note the the hidious laughter spell will make him decend untill he is prone. LOL!!! :rofl: THAT WAS THE BEST THING I EVER READ ON THE BOARD!!! *climbs back on his chair* |
| Jindl02-07-04, 02:48 PM | @ToK - You may want to double check the range on deep slumber. -Jindl |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-07-04, 02:53 PM | Originally posted by Jindl @ToK - You may want to double check the range on deep slumber. -Jindl Candy can cast it from 45' away. I'm afraid i don't follow you. Her bard levels are 1/1 caster levels are they not? If not, then OOops! Tellish *EDIT* @Jindl. Ok, i went back and read what might have been wrong. I realized i left somethings out from the wording of what was happening and it didn't reflect on the character placement. More accurately reported now. |
| Caterane02-07-04, 02:57 PM | Johan Talyana MW Tobacco Pipe (+2 Concentration) 50 gp and another killer!! :rofl: Tactics received from Tok, Mag :eek: , Jindl, and accidently from Snark for Skymoon. Snark, I forwarded them to Tellish. I swear I didn`t read them. |
| MotherBast02-07-04, 04:04 PM | I don't understand what was funny about the prone thing? The spell specifically says it forces the target to "fall prone." I might be wrong about not being able to be prone in the air, but I belive that is what we decided during the "tripping a flying character" debate. Since it is an effect of the spell, the spell would carry it out to the best of its ability. If the character could not "fall prone" while flying, he would obviously have to land. The spell would force him to, since being prone is one of its effects. The hide thing was a real rule loophole, but this is just enforcing the effect of the spell. While the other one was debatable on the basis of common sence, this one is a simple matter of the spell doing exactly what is says it does. It forces the target to "fall prone." It does not specify the target has to be on the ground, or give a maximum hight the target can "fall". No matter how high the target is, it will "fall prone." Now, if it is possible to be prone in the air, its a different story. But as I said, I think the arena had ruled that to be impossible. I could be mistaken, however. |
| Battousai200502-07-04, 04:50 PM | Wouldn't a masterwork tobacco pipe lower consentration?:confused: I mean, the narcotic effect can't be good for constitution. And all that smoke must make aiming spells difficult. Then again, maybe thats the MW part. Still, I suppose an example like Elmister's Eversmoking Pipe (Epic Lev Handbook) just goes to show that a pipe is a mage's best friend! BTW, what does a giant eagle, full grown cost? It only mentions chicks and eggs in the MM |
| SnarkHunter02-07-04, 05:32 PM | What ho old beans? I've finished the Ebelin vs. rito fight. The monk was victorious. Check it out at the hiz-o yo. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2522084#post2522084). @Cat: !!! Wait a sec aren't you running the skymoon/Kelek fight?!? Why did you send them to Tok? |
| Market_Share02-07-04, 05:57 PM | One down, one to go. Anna vs Hanz & Brutus the butcher. SPIKE |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-07-04, 05:59 PM | Originally posted by SnarkHunter @Cat: !!! Wait a sec aren't you running the skymoon/Kelek fight?!? Why did you send them to Tok? I'm just gonna take a wild guess here and say he's just messin' with ya. lol Tellish |
| sshuit02-07-04, 06:01 PM | Spoiler alert.. Anna vs Hanz. . . . . . . . . . . . . That is the most broken character concept I've seen in a long time. ugh. 6 telekinesed swords in the gullet. I don't think any sane DM would let you play a ghost in a real campaign though.... |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-07-04, 06:10 PM | I don't think she's broken at all. Like most new ideas that come out, they seem overpowering until someone figures away to beat it and then its' not so bad. I have several simple ways in the works already. I hadn't actually read the fight yet. I guess i'll go read it now and see what happend. Tellish |
| sshuit02-07-04, 06:31 PM | Go read it! |
| Tharkos02-08-04, 12:53 AM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket I don't think she's broken at all. Like most new ideas that come out, they seem overpowering until someone figures away to beat it and then its' not so bad. I would say that way to beat her is a cleric of pretty high level with a periapt of undead turning and so on ... One decent turning roll and BOOM she is gone. @Cat & Hatzi German translations are always there for the fun of silly translation. Ever since 1st edition, where they made a serious mistake in translating Cloudkill: "creatures up to 10 HD" was translated into "Kreaturen ab 10 HD" which turns the spell around somewhat. In the 2nd Edition they used the english index in the books, even though the german books were much thicker ... (german = english + 20%) I would really support that "only use english material" point of view because these german translations are done without thinking about the way it sounds / feels. And of course any novel translated to german is split into two books (so the publisher can make more money). |
| Arstimis02-08-04, 04:18 AM | I have some questions about my fight Herrix had 2 more hp that he is supposed, his hp isnt calculated using the new rule. Might make a difference Why did Swifter never get all 3 of his attacks? Why didnt Swifter ever get an Attack of Opportunity when Herrix flew or cast a spell from of a threatened square. (When you escape from a grapple you finish the action by ending up in a square adjacent to the opponent. ) Examples: Rnd. 8- Herrix so desperately tries to escape the grapple and is rewarded once again. Fleeing 60’ once again Rnd. 6- Herrix’s only chance lies in breaking free, and miraculously does so. Herrix moves 60’ away fleeing with all due haste trying to get behind a pillar for safety. Rnd. 12- Herrix casts mirror image and moves. He was in a threatened square in round 11- Herrix (-27,-5, 10’), Swifter (-26,-5, 15’) ( diagonally threatened). That and Herrix basically flew right through Swifter Rnd. 13- Herrix was in a threatened square when he cast true strike. from round 12 because he didnt move: Herrix (-26,5, 40’), Swifter (-27,5, 45’) My tactics: If he goes invisible I will go in full defense at first, and ready my action to attack him when he appears or when i figure out where he is. Swifter will begin Fly by Attack the horse until Herrix reveals himself. Why didnt i attack him right when i figured out where he was in round 9. I would have had my x-bow at the ready because i knew he was in the air. I wouldnt have double moved to point at him. I would have shot at him Why didnt i attack in round 14 right when i first would have saw him? In round 10, how did Herrix cast Bears Endurance then move at least 110 feet, (from (-5,-6) to (-27,-4, 10'))? Well..those are some questions i had about my fight. there were a few other small things, but i dont think there was a need to mention them. Im not mad at you TOK, i just want to know why some things happened, or didnt happen, so i know for next time. |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-08-04, 07:15 AM | Originally posted by Arstimis Why did Swifter never get all 3 of his attacks? He had to move and attack, you only get one attack that way. And grapple is based on bab. Swifter only has a +4 bab, means he only gets one grapple check, unless he's using "attack opponent in melee" for the -4 which you didn't say you wanted him to do. You wanted him to drag him to you. Originally posted by Arstimis Why didnt Swifter ever get an Attack of Opportunity when Herrix flew or cast a spell from of a threatened square. (When you escape from a grapple you finish the action by ending up in a square adjacent to the opponent. ) You can't take AoO's vs invisible opponents. Herrix was invisible nearly the whole time. Originally posted by Arstimis My tactics: Why didnt i attack him right when i figured out where he was in round 9. I would have had my x-bow at the ready because i knew he was in the air. I wouldnt have double moved to point at him. I would have shot at him Your tactics specified nothing if he took to the air. I had to wing that part on my own and extrapolate from your ground based tactic (ps. never a good thing imo). I'm not the best extrapolater. There was a lot of focus on grappling and controlling him. Besides i believe he was behind cover and you had no line of sight to him. Originally posted by Arstimis Why didnt i attack in round 14 right when i first would have saw him? Again, this falls into the category that you never said anything about it and i looked at your sheet afterwards to see what you could to about it. That's why you fired in round 15 onward instead of 14. I had to make that up myself. Originally posted by Arstimis In round 10, how did Herrix cast Bears Endurance then move at least 110 feet, (from (-5,-6) to (-27,-4, 10'))? And did you not notice that you guys also made significant shifts? The positioning is all relative anyhow, and i lost track of some movement along the way. When i had the peice on my battlemat i saw it didn't corelate with what i had written down. SO i changed it to reflect everyone's current position and start back from there. Originally posted by Arstimis Im not mad at you TOK, i just want to know why some things happened, or didnt happen, so i know for next time. [/B] Thank you for not being upset and patient in waiting for my reply. I hope those answer your questions. Tellish |
| Caterane02-08-04, 07:44 AM | @Cat: !!! Wait a sec aren't you running the skymoon/Kelek fight?!? Why did you send them to Tok? :D If I can target the Professor with a Melf's Acid Arrow (range: 640') then cast it targeting his Spell Component Pouch (as far as I can tell this is Ahem, this is of course not possible. You cannot target specific spots on the body else I cast true strike and go for your left eye next time. It didn`t matter since I won the fight but it cost me some of my scrolls. |
| sshuit02-08-04, 08:54 AM | Sure you can. You're allowed to sunder carried objects. Why not your spell component pouch? Seems like a clever tactic to me. It's relatively high AC (+8 for size) +++ So it's pretty hard without a truestrike or the like though. Originally posted by Caterane :D Ahem, this is of course not possible. You cannot target specific spots on the body else I cast true strike and go for your left eye next time. It didn`t matter since I won the fight but it cost me some of my scrolls. |
| Caterane02-08-04, 09:09 AM | And if I carry my components in my panties under my robe and my cloak? If he targets my scroll case, does it destroy all my scrolls? What if he targets my googles with an empowered maximized scorching ray? My eyes are still intact then? What if I target his belt? Does he lose his trousers, needs a full round? standard? move action? to remove them or fall prone? balance check? nothing? New feat: speedy undress comes to mind. I could give you even more unrealistic examples but I think that did it quite well. A simple true strike + damage spell robs a wizard of all his spells? That seems a bit broken to me. |
| sshuit02-08-04, 09:39 AM | Originally posted by Caterane And if I carry my components in my panties under my robe and my cloak? Then it would be a move equivalent action to retrieve needed spell components If he targets my scroll case, does it destroy all my scrolls? Unless it was a splash effect he'd just destroy one scroll What if he targets my googles with an empowered maximized scorching ray? Yes, a scorching ray targeted on goggles could theoretically destroy the goggles but not your eyes My eyes are still intact then? yes What if I target his belt? Does he lose his trousers, needs a full round? standard? move action? to remove them or fall prone? balance check? nothing? New feat: speedy undress comes to mind. If you target his belt and successfully sunder it, it falls to the floor, requiring a Mv.Equiv. Action to retrieve. His pants do not fall. I could give you even more unrealistic examples but I think that did it quite well. I don't see anything unrealistic about any of those examples. Certainly nothing more unrealistic than a man who can create arrows of acid out of thin air A simple true strike + damage spell robs a wizard of all his spells? That seems a bit broken to me. Carry a spare |
| Caterane02-08-04, 09:44 AM | Well, 2 opinions. What do the others think? |
| MotherBast02-08-04, 10:04 AM | Well, there are clear cut rules for attacking objects worn or carried, so obvioulsy it must be possible. I would say anything you ware or carry is fair game to be targeted. I know in the last game I was actually a player in, I was playing a skill focused rogue (named Candessa, by the way). She wasen't combat focused, so when it came to melee, I relied on tricky tricky tactics over the starndard flank+sneak attack. In one particuar battle, I rushed a tifling wizard, and made an attack aginst the cord holding his spell componet pouch. I missed, but continued the assulet the folling round and was able to cut the pouch away. Another party member grabed the pouch, and the wizard fled. This dosen't seem to much different to me. The pouch is always a prime target when fighting wizards. |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-08-04, 10:27 AM | I'm with mb/ssuit on this one. Even though Mag denied me attacking the scrolls with my bow, the rules clearly state that you can. Destroying an object in melee use the sundering rules, and thus MB tactics of sundering the spellpouch string works just perfectly well. p.165/166/167 phb outline striking/dmging objects. As such i should have been able to easily destroy Octavian's scrolls. Also, the acid arrow attack on Dre's spell pouch was also very legal. Too many times a character is thwarted by poor rules adjudication and/or lack of research into someones tactics. Just because YOU think it can't be done, doesn't mean it can't. Instead, as often seen, one section is only refrenced and given it a general application to something that is more specific before all the facts are uncovered. Tellish [my rant for the day] |
| Alathar Vierce02-08-04, 11:08 AM | Candessa to be faced with numerous belt sunder attempts in the future I'm guessing? That alone happening would have to add near +10 to leadership I would think :D :smirk: :love: |
| Caterane02-08-04, 11:21 AM | Hey Al, I`m still waiting for you to reactivate the legendary Alathar Vierce! You didn`t even level him. You know, Iron beat you in the unscathed winner section. You can still get the title back. We want Al back!! |
| Bishop the Bardican02-08-04, 11:28 AM | I think the rules for items attacked by spell and by weapon might be different. Somewhere in the magic section of the PHB it says that all items of a character targeted by a damaging spell are considered to survive unless specifically stated otherwise within the spell's description. If an acid arrow can target a spell component pouch a fireball would leave most characters standing naked in the arena. With items in hand, use the sunder rules. I don't remember called shots on an enemy's person being allowed. You can try to use an arrow to try to hit a switch on a wall or snap a rope, but you can not aim for your opponent's jugular. Why would vorpal weapons be such fearsome items if any lucky archer with true strike spells could perform ranged surgery. This would also apply to their worn items (anything not in their hands). |
| SnarkHunter02-08-04, 11:37 AM | Yo. Who would of thought a 3rd level fight could be so long? Anywho, you can read about it here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2527556#post2527556 ). |
| Alathar Vierce02-08-04, 11:51 AM | The great AV eh? lol Well I guess he is level 7, never did update him your right ;) Never know I might someday :P Under Sundering in the combat section it says that you can sunder worn items, but it adds the dex bonus of the wearer on top of the AC of the item. |
| LLMadCow02-08-04, 11:57 AM | Originally posted by Arstimis Herrix had 2 more hp that he is supposed, his hp isnt calculated using the new rule. Might make a difference. Really? I count 10 (1st level as fighter @ d10) + 12.5 (5 levels of Wizard @ d4) + 12 (6 levels of Con Bonus +2) = 34.5. Where did I go wrong? I guess you could say I left off the .5, or something like that... :confused: |
| kattattack2202-08-04, 12:33 PM | spoiler! . .. ... .... ... .. . .. ... .. . . . . . . . . . . . @SnarkHunter - I think Delynal loses his mount, not Ony since he doesn't have one. Otherwise, awesome job SnarkHunter. Next time I will send tatics by email. |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-08-04, 01:12 PM | Originally posted by Bishop the Bardican I don't remember called shots on an enemy's person being allowed. You can try to use an arrow to try to hit a switch on a wall or snap a rope, but you can not aim for your opponent's jugular. Why would vorpal weapons be such fearsome items if any lucky archer with true strike spells could perform ranged surgery. This would also apply to their worn items (anything not in their hands). We're not talking about called shots here, we're talking about "stricking an object". Those are clearly outlined. I don't think anyone has yet to perform a "called shot", let alone even ask for one in the arena. Tellish |
| barrel_master02-08-04, 01:41 PM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket I'm with mb/ssuit on this one. Even though Mag denied me attacking the scrolls with my bow, the rules clearly state that you can. Destroying an object in melee use the sundering rules, and thus MB tactics of sundering the spellpouch string works just perfectly well. p.165/166/167 phb outline striking/dmging objects. As such i should have been able to easily destroy Octavian's scrolls. Also, the acid arrow attack on Dre's spell pouch was also very legal. Too many times a character is thwarted by poor rules adjudication and/or lack of research into someones tactics. Just because YOU think it can't be done, doesn't mean it can't. Instead, as often seen, one section is only refrenced and given it a general application to something that is more specific before all the facts are uncovered. Tellish [my rant for the day] I thought we disscussed this a while ago and agreed that we could not sunder an object unless it was with a slashing or bludoning weapon in melee... this is not the case? From the SRD 'combat 2' section SUNDER You can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon to strike a weapon or shield that your opponent is holding. If you’re attempting to sunder a weapon or shield, follow the steps outlined here. (Attacking held objects other than weapons or shields is covered below.) ... Sundering a Carried or Worn Object: You don’t use an opposed attack roll to damage a carried or worn object. Instead, just make an attack roll against the object’s AC. A carried or worn object’s AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier + the Dexterity modifier of the carrying or wearing character. Attacking a carried or worn object provokes an attack of opportunity just as attacking a held object does. To attempt to snatch away an item worn by a defender rather than damage it, see Disarm. You can’t sunder armor worn by another character. |
| Arstimis02-08-04, 01:54 PM | Your tactics specified nothing if he took to the air. I had to wing that part on my own and extrapolate from your ground based tactic (ps. never a good thing imo). I'm not the best extrapolater. There was a lot of focus on grappling and controlling him. Besides i believe he was behind cover and you had no line of sight to him My tactics didnt specify anything about him being on the ground either. I said ready my action to attack him. Since i knew he was in the air then i would have readied my crossbow, as i cant attack in the air. Rnd 8-Kiowen, unable to strike this round, moves behind Herrix’s pillar though, ready for the next round. Rnd 9- Kiowen positive of where Herrix fled to, double moves to stand beside him pointing at the square. Ok...one of two things should have been done. If i had my crossbow out then i should have shot at him, because in round 8 it says i was ready to strike. and round 9 i knew where he was and able to stand right next to him, inferring there was nothing between use.Or if i didnt have my crossbow ready i should have been able to attack him with my fists. Something else i dont quite understand. In round 8 Herrix was at (-5,-6) after his turn and i was at (-5-6) before my turn. He was right on me and Swifter tried to grapple him, so why did i move away. Why didnt i attack then. And if not then, i should have attacked in round 9 Ok...Round 8 i am standing 5 ft away with nothing between us, and i have my readied action to attack, and i dont have a crossbow in my hand because you didnt think i should. I should have attacked right when i heard him casting his spell. Why did i instead move 10 feet away, and point to a square 10 feet from me...it makes no sense Again, this falls into the category that you never said anything about it and i looked at your sheet afterwards to see what you could to about it. That's why you fired in round 15 onward instead of 14. I had to make that up myself. I never specified my tactics to ready a grapple, i said ready my action to attack when i found out where he was...since i knew he was flying as i saw swifter fighting with him in the air, i would have been ready to shoot him when i found out where he was Edit: oh...are scrolls considered weapons? |
| Tharkos02-08-04, 02:27 PM | Originally posted by Arstimis Edit: oh...are scrolls considered weapons? Do you do damage when hitting someone with a scroll ? Nope, unless that creature is especially vulnerable / allergic to paper / parchment (and I dont know any creature with that vulnerability :( ). Scrolls arent listed in the weapons table in the PHB either, so they arent weapons, just items which you can hold in your hand(s). |
| Caterane02-08-04, 02:33 PM | Yesterday I got 1 hp damage by a sheet of paper... It was even keen and wounding |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-08-04, 02:33 PM | @Barrel & ALL: GAWD!! for the eigth HUNDRED times, we aren't talking about SUNDERING!!!!! I said a million, gazillion times "STRIKING AN OBJECT" READ PLEAASEW! gah #1! Originally posted by Arstimis I said ready my action to attack him. Ya but you didn't say how. Ready action is pretty specific. If you wanted to ready with xbow, then you need to say that. I'm getting a little flustered here. You're tactics were very general and subject to interpretation. If you wanted something specific you need to mention it. I can't guess everything. And to be real honest i'm getting MORE than tired of players whining from writing bad/poorly worded tactics and then when something goes wrong in the fight they blame that it wasn't interpreted properly. Arstimis Rant Since i knew he was in the air then i would have readied my crossbow, as i cant attack in the air. Then next time anticipate that you opponent could fly and do something about it. I am a horrible guesser. ;) Arstimis Rant Ok...one of two things should have been done. If i had my crossbow out then i should have shot at him, because in round 8 it says i was ready to strike. Please don't confusing wording with verbatim. You were ready to attack THE NEXT ROUND!!! not sure how difficult that was to read and to see you made a double move to get there. Arstimis Rant and round 9 i knew where he was and able to stand right next to him, inferring there was nothing between use. For the last time, and please read, don't just skip this because you don't like the answers, YOU CAN"T AOO INVIS PPL. Arstimis Rant Something else i dont quite understand. In round 8 Herrix was at (-5,-6) after his turn and i was at (-5-6) before my turn. He was right on me and Swifter tried to grapple him, so why did i move away. Why didnt i attack then. And if not then, i should have attacked in round 9 I need to as you a question. Am i typing this for nothing? Or do you just want to whine and complain for nothing? I stated earlier to not really pay much attention to the positions. They were self-corrected later in the match. All in all, you lost ONE round of firing the xbow because i had to look up what you could do to defend yourself and fight back vs a flying opponent. If you had a better tactic in mind then its your job to make it so, not mine. As moderators we can only guess so much about what to do when someones tactics don't work out. What happens 9/10 (unless your me) is that if it doesn't work out to your liking you come back to the boards and scream bloody murder. DOOD!!! you lost ONE round of xbowing. Is it worth all the whining? I don't think so. Next time be better prepared. gah #2! Arstimis Legit Question Edit: oh...are scrolls considered weapons? no Tellish |
| Arstimis02-08-04, 03:05 PM | Ya but you didn't say how. Ready action is pretty specific. If you wanted to ready with xbow, then you need to say that. I'm getting a little flustered here. You're tactics were very general and subject to interpretation. Ready an action to attack...there is only two things possible 1. If he is on the ground then i would be ready to attack with my fists. 2. if he is in the air i would be ready to attack with my crossbow Since he was in the air, and i knew he was in the air, then i should have had my crossbow ready. It makes logical since. My character isnt stupid. And about the general tactics...they wouldnt have been quite so general if you didnt say the deadline was up, and i didnt have to rush to send my tactics to you. Of course by the time you corrected yourself it was too late to send a better set of tactics anyways. Then next time anticipate that you opponent could fly and do something about it. I am a horrible guesser. i know you were kinda joking, but i wasnt guessing he could fly. I knew he could fly, there wasnt anythign to anticipate. And my actions were to attack, which is doing something about it Please don't confusing wording with verbatim. You were ready to attack THE NEXT ROUND!!! not sure how difficult that was to read and to see you made a double move to get there. I know i was ready to attack the next round. So why didnt i attack the next round? For the last time, and please read, don't just skip this because you don't like the answers, YOU CAN"T AOO INVIS PPL. Jeeze, dont get mad, i never said anything about AOO. i know you cant AOO invis people. This is when i should have gotten the attack i was ready to do from round 8. In a previous post you said i didnt attack because you believe there was something between us..but there wasnt, so i should have attacked. need to as you a question. Am i typing this for nothing? Or do you just want to whine and complain for nothing? I stated earlier to not really pay much attention to the positions. They were self-corrected later in the match. The actual number dont matter, its the fact that i was within attack range, and on my turn instead i point to a square. I knew he was there. you made me do a double move..which doesnt make much since because of how close we were. I was within charging range..i should have at least charged. All in all, you lost ONE round of firing the xbow because i had to look up what you could do to defend yourself and fight back vs a flying opponent. If you had a better tactic in mind then its your job to make it so, not mine. As moderators we can only guess so much about what to do when someones tactics don't work out. What happens 9/10 (unless your me) is that if it doesn't work out to your liking you come back to the boards and scream bloody murder. DOOD!!! you lost ONE round of xbowing. Is it worth all the whining? I don't think so. Next time be better prepared. Ok...one round of a crossbow bolt..one shot to hit him before he killed me. He legally had only 2 hp left when the match ended. Dont start talking about how that one round wouldnt have made the difference in the fight Arstimis Legit Question Edit: oh...are scrolls considered weapons? noIsnt this just great, i get to bring up another question How was he able to cast a spell from a scroll each round, during the magic missle combat. Quick draw specifically refers to Weapons, and after 2 responses that a scroll isnt a weapon(one being from you) then i dont see how he could do this All in all, i think there were a few mistakes against me that would have changed the outcome of the figh, and i just wanted answers as to why. Oh..and nice job adding to the quotes with putting Arstimis Rant in there, and also saying i kept whining. If i was whining there would my Shift and Caps Lock key would have gotten more use, as well as my 1 key. Hmm..who used a bit of caps and !? |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-08-04, 03:11 PM | not once did he draw, cast and move. I'm tired of answering your questions. You obvously can't read what i'm saying. For future's sake, i would ask that you ask MO that i don't moderate your fights since it's really obvoius by the lenght of your utter inattention to what i'm saying that i'm a horrible mod and i just went sooooo out of my way to screw you over. In fact i sleep well at night knowing i did just that. Tellish |
| sshuit02-08-04, 03:11 PM | striking objects: All on PHB 165. ..."generally you can smash an object only with a blud / slash".... but ...."Energy attacks : Acid/Sonic : Full damage, Electricity/fire 1/2 damage to most objects. Cold 1/4 damage to most objects"..... and also DM's discrection when it comes to immunities and vulnerabilities. eg. Paper might be considered very susceptible to fire and take full or even double damage, a fragile vase or mirror might take double damage from sonic or bludgeoning but none from cold.... whatever. |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-08-04, 03:20 PM | @Sshuit - Very true, also says Ranged Weapon Damge: Objects take half damage from ranged weapons (unless the weapon is a siege ingine or something similiar). Tellish |
| Arstimis02-08-04, 03:40 PM | You obvously can't read what i'm saying. No, im illiterate, sorry. Come on...stop saying i cant read what you are saying. The only time i ask you something again, is because you never answered it in the first place, or i have a different question I'm tired of answering your questions. The sad part is that your hardly answering my questions. After my first post your sorta just stopped answering them, and just started complaining about how i cant read. For future's sake, i would ask that you ask MO that i don't moderate your fights since it's really obvoius by the lenght of your utter inattention to what i'm saying that i'm a horrible mod and i just went sooooo out of my way to screw you over. In fact i sleep well at night knowing i did just that. Calm down..now once did i say your a horrible mod, or say any of those things. Maybe you should be the one requesting to not mod me @all: since ToK doesnt want to answer my questions, or just wants to screw me over, as he put it, could someone take a look at my fight, Rnds. 8-10..and answer why i never got at least 1 attack then. Also Rnd 14 why i didnt i have my x-bow ready and shoot |
| barrel_master02-08-04, 03:45 PM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket [B]@Barrel & ALL: GAWD!! for the eigth HUNDRED times, we aren't talking about SUNDERING!!!!! I said a million, gazillion times "STRIKING AN OBJECT" READ PLEAASEW! Tellish Doesn't striking an object in combat count as a 'sunder' attempt? In the SRD there is no comment regarding the destruction of an item in an individual's possession, during combat, unless it's in regards to the 'sunder' attack. If you know of the section in the SRD which goes against this please post it. |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-08-04, 04:42 PM | Originally posted by barrel_master Doesn't striking an object in combat count as a 'sunder' attempt? In the SRD there is no comment regarding the destruction of an item in an individual's possession, during combat, unless it's in regards to the 'sunder' attack. If you know of the section in the SRD which goes against this please post it. ' @Barrel: Well, yes and no. Honestly though, all kidding aside, i've never read the SRD. Never have and have no intentions of it either. If you do have access to the phb though Barrel, page 165-167 cover striking an object. Lets look at it this way. Sundering is for melee and follows all what you correctly pointed out. Striking an object would be anything that didn't fall into that category. Obviously still a standard action. So in the case of the melf's attack against Dre's pouch, or my wanting to shoot out your scrolls would be covered under that. I can't give you an SRD reference as i'ver never once laid eyes on them. @Arstimis: K, hehe. I'm not upset guy. Just frustrated. By all means submit it for an error point if you though you were wronged. The only thing i can see is you didn't use the xbow one round sooner, but i don't really consider that my fault as there was nothing covering it in your tactics. After that round i looked up your items at what you could do to defend yourself. All other questions were answered. Twice now. I think it's time you stopped making a mountiain out of a grain of sand. And i said the part of asking MO not to have me mod your fights because if you're not accepting what i'm saying over something that you can't see, well...then we'd be arguing every time. So kinda pointless from the way i see it. Better to just avoid all that nastiness and be done with me modding your fights. Tellish |
| Arstimis02-08-04, 04:53 PM | Ok Tellish...forget everything else i have said. I just have one question that i would like you to answer. In Rd 9, i was able to move and stand beside him and point, why was i not able to charge him? With that I would basically have a 50/50 chance to win ....sorry to be frustrating |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-08-04, 05:24 PM | Originally posted by Arstimis Ok Tellish...forget everything else i have said. I just have one question that i would like you to answer. In Rd 9, i was able to move and stand beside him and point, why was i not able to charge him? With that I would basically have a 50/50 chance to win ....sorry to be frustrating Don't be sorry, you obvouisly have a concern with the fight and it's your right to ask. I reviewed it and found a discrepency in that phase. Here's what happened. Originally i thought Herrix had cast it from memory and moved away. A round or two passed and i had to back track. I'm reviewing the rolls in the online roller as i write this and it seems like i err'ed and you didn't get the attack. But 50/50? No way in hell. You're +5 unarmed vs his AC 19 touch at the time? And to boot, he's got +6 grapple vs your +9. My friend that is anything but a 50/50. I think the biggest error (and i never mentioned it because it was such a stupid error) was not giving Herrix AoO's against the eagle for his grapple attempts...especailly after Herrix was visible. Your eagle doesn't have improved unarmed strike or any sort of improved grab. It would have provoked. PLUS, #2, was Herrix always wanted to maintain greatest distance. So if anyone has a more legit complaint it would be him. I guess, not to be rude, but consider yourself fortunate for even getting that close. Hope that settles the issue. Tellish *EDIT* Also, you've been on the boards for a month or two. There are very, and i mean VERY few error-free fights. Some bigger than others. We all make 'em and i would hardly consider that one a "fight turning" error as you said. |
| Arstimis02-08-04, 06:39 PM | 1) Herrix's ac, touch or not, is 17(10+3(dex)+2(cats grace)+2 invis) Sorry if I'm wrong about the ac, I don't have the books with me right now. 2) my grapple is +13, I was still enlarged at that time It would have been too hard for me to hit him Yes, I saw the AoO issue with Herrix. First, what was he going to attack with? Then was he going to reveal himself. And when he was visible and had that chance to AoO he had a bow in his hand. So I think Herrix's AoO were handled correctly by him not getting them. You can't say that one extra attack I should have had wouldn't make a difference because the match was within 2 hp. Oh and do you think you could post the link to you online roller Thanks for reading, sorry to be so persistently annoying |
| LLMadCow02-08-04, 06:48 PM | Originally posted by Arstimis Isnt this just great, i get to bring up another question How was he able to cast a spell from a scroll each round, during the magic missle combat. Quick draw specifically refers to Weapons, and after 2 responses that a scroll isnt a weapon(one being from you) then i dont see how he could do this. Well, here is something else I love. Please do not get too upset, but Herrix is a creative and resourceful spell caster. If you look over his inventory, Herrix has a scroll (Labeled Scroll1) that contains FIVE Magic MIssiles. The scroll does not disappear until AFTER all of the spells have been used. No need to Quick Draw those bad boys, sine they all came together! Also, please take note that, according to the DMG, a scroll containing multiple spells is reinforced and would not simply be a roll of paper to be easily destroyed. (The Italicised portion is my emphasis and merely what I infer from the text in the DMG.) @ToK - I apologize for not taking the time to mention this sooner, but I am perfectly happy with how the fight turned out. Yes, I won, but that isn't the point. The errors were minor and had little impact on the fight. The errors seem to balance out for the most part. My tactics were simple and, I think, straight forward. You followed what I had and my tactics reflected what I knew about my opponent. @Arstimis - My only real question I would ask ToK would be - Why didn't I kill Swifter? What is the bird, a Giant Eagle? What did that cost - $2500 to $5000 gp? That is quite a SERIOUS loss of GP and something that should not be taken lightly. Remember - Only Animal Companions, Familiars, the Paladins Mount, etc are brought back for free. Herrix already had to shell out some GP for a new Heavy Warhorse - Valerius died in combat and Valerius II now fills that stable! |
| Market_Share02-08-04, 07:13 PM | done @Cliodhna: I was deeply saddened by your tactics. Can i say that without insulting you? It almost seems like you through in the towel. Don't get me wrong, i HATE modding and your tactics made this oen VERY easy to mod. SPIKE |
| Caterane02-08-04, 07:17 PM | Born a mutant to the human race, after all there ARE no 6’0 tall humans who weigh only 120 lbs. They were afraid that if the wind blew too hard, Babar would snap in half. They placed him on a strict fast-food diet and within a day or two he had ballooned out to a whopping 128 lbs. :rofl: Spike, you´re too funny!! I read the Anna vs Hanz fight and was impressed. You once told me you cannot write and I told you "type it instead" uh...forget the last part, and you had difficulites coming up with good story lines. Well, either your little sister helped you out or you just detected some slumbering talent in you. Your last fight (Babar vs Clio) was great work at storywriting, written well and a superb story idea. I`m really glad you didn`t quit moddding. @Tok/Artismis: http://www.1a-network.de/grafik/guestbook/smilies/pop.gif |
| Magagumo02-08-04, 07:17 PM | @T_O_K The PHB clearly states that sundering items requires a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon.. in Complete Warrior, there's a feat that allows you to make ranged Sunder atatcks (anmed Ranged Sunder). Now, if one could just sunder things with arrows w/o this feat, then why do you think it exists? Anyways, my only question regarding the Zorander fight is why I didn't hide first round. Since my movement can easily bring me within the 5' ring of shadow around each obstacle, and I can hide 10' from that shadow, why was anyone able to observe me if I went first? Honest curiosity is all that drives this question, the rest of the fight looked well-run, and 1s on Will saves vs. sleep can and will happen. Just wondering about the hiding is all :P Will start Brackin v. Iron in a bit... each sides gives me different estimates for how long this fight will take... we'll see who is more correct ^_~ |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-08-04, 07:29 PM | @Mag: I boo-boo'd. It's kinda a new ability in the arena and wasn't used to using it. My apolagies for that. I won't forget again. @Arstimis: http://krisinchico.brinkster.net/rolldata.asp touch ac: 10+5dex+4cover=AC19 @Mag #2: I know the sundering rules, but i'm not talking about sundering. This is something different. I wouldn't even consider trying to break someones sword with my arrows...that would be completely illegal. I'm talking about paper(scrolls), and other objects that would fall under the "strike an object" rules. IF the only time you could break something was in melee and using the sundering rules, some things would suddenly become absolutely indestructible. Page 165-167 covers those, and that's what i follow. If someone sends me tactics to punch arrow holes through a scroll, i have a page reference and paragraph refrence if someoen wants to argue why i allowed it. They could scream sundering all they want, but it's not a sunder attempt. The rules exist for what is being accomplished. @Cat: Sad, sad, sad. :) Tellish *EDIT* Just read babar fight as well. I think MO was the one drinking too much beer when he wrote those tactics. Nice fight Mike. |
| barrel_master02-08-04, 07:31 PM | Originally posted by Magagumo @T_O_K The PHB clearly states that sundering items requires a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon.. in Complete Warrior, there's a feat that allows you to make ranged Sunder atatcks (anmed Ranged Sunder). Now, if one could just sunder things with arrows w/o this feat, then why do you think it exists? I think his arguement is that he doesn't have to use sunder to destroy an object in someone's possesion and that he can just damage it like normal. Although I still do agree with you. |
| Jindl02-08-04, 07:32 PM | @Tellish - I think that the striking an object rules are for unattended objects. By definition, sundering is attempting to damage a held/worn object. If you cannot sunder with ranged attacks, then you cannot damage held/worn objects with ranged attacks. The attacking an object rules you quote are for unattended objects. -Jindl |
| Magagumo02-08-04, 07:39 PM | Ok, Tellish, i do see the page reference, but it also denotes that you, "generally can smash an object only with a bludgeoning or slashing weapon." Sure, an arrow can hit the scroll, but it's only going to make a small tear as it flies on through... just as you could shoot a tree or door full of arrows and never completely destroy it. I suppose paper is more vulnerable, but I'm just not sure about dealing damage with a piercing weapon. Re: Shadow- it's ok, it didn't destroy me, and I thought the rest of it went well. Re: Polymorph- Just curious, is the change in hp due to the change in Constitution? Because the alter self spell (which Polymorph builds upon) states that you retain your hps (so they do not go down unless a Con boosting item is no longer functioning). As Polymorph does not reference the character's hps changing, I would believe that alter self's rules regarding the hp still apply, despite changes to Consitution. They tend to be v. specific if a character's attributes change (AC, Strength, Consitution, Dexterity), so no statement regarding changing hp generally menas they don't. Otherwise, wizards would always ploymorph their familiars, so that they could have better hps... |
| barrel_master02-08-04, 07:39 PM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket [B@Mag #2: I know the sundering rules, but i'm not talking about sundering. This is something different. I wouldn't even consider trying to break someones sword with my arrows...that would be completely illegal. I'm talking about paper(scrolls), and other objects that would fall under the "strike an object" rules. IF the only time you could break something was in melee and using the sundering rules, some things would suddenly become absolutely indestructible. Page 165-167 covers those, and that's what i follow. If someone sends me tactics to punch arrow holes through a scroll, i have a page reference and paragraph refrence if someoen wants to argue why i allowed it. They could scream sundering all they want, but it's not a sunder attempt. The rules exist for what is being accomplished. Tellish [/B] I agree that the 'strike object' rules have a place in D&D but I don't think they have a place in melee combat. Why? If the sunder rules are only for melee combat then that would mean that a character could not break a potion in melee with a spear but could do it with a throwing knife. And, if you apply the stike object rules to all ranged combat then you could use your arrows to break wooden shields and swords as well. |
| Market_Share02-08-04, 07:43 PM | @Cat- yeah, i took your advice. I'm just writing them out instead of doing all that number crunching round by round stuff. Takes way too long for me to do it that way. My computer is an old MAC and its' VERY slow. Glad you enjoyed them. @sundering/stricking: Dunno tough to say. But to be on the safe side, my guys are buying 5 spell component pouches. SPIKE |
| barrel_master02-08-04, 07:48 PM | Originally posted by Magagumo Re: Polymorph- Just curious, is the change in hp due to the change in Constitution? Because the alter self spell (which Polymorph builds upon) states that you retain your hps (so they do not go down unless a Con boosting item is no longer functioning). As Polymorph does not reference the character's hps changing, I would believe that alter self's rules regarding the hp still apply, despite changes to Consitution. They tend to be v. specific if a character's attributes change (AC, Strength, Consitution, Dexterity), so no statement regarding changing hp generally menas they don't. Otherwise, wizards would always ploymorph their familiars, so that they could have better hps... Humm... I keep on forgetting the 'functions like alter self'... the thing is that in the 3.0 discription there was no reference to alter self yet there were limits where it explicitly states that one's HP does not change even if the con changes and that the character can not change into creatures larger then 1 size larger... I guess when we saw the new version of the spell most of us (myself included) assumed that those restictions just left and that the 'alter self' thing was just a guide line. |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-08-04, 07:51 PM | @Jingl/Mag: I'm also inclined to agree, which is why i didn't argue with Mag about it in the fight. I'm very impartial either way. But i read and re-read the section several times since, and i can't find where it says it's for unattented objects. I would believe it would fall under the rule of 'common sense'. But then again, seeing how Tasha's will bring you to a hideous death if you're flying too high, this might not be the wisest course of action. I'm easily pursuaded in the matter. I'll go with what the majority thinks. Seems to go the way that it's for unattended objects only then. I'm down with that. @MS: yeah, funny mike. Too bad about the snow storm. Was looking forward to a weekend full of montreal women. :( @Polymorph: I've seen ppl add the HP's. This should NOT be the case. Something like that, imo, wouldn't be easily overlooked from R & D. I know i know, please don't laugh. :) I personally think it's very clear that you do not add the hp's to polymorph. Not sure if i've actually ran a fight and gave hp's due to poly, but i'd have erred if i had. Just my opinion. *EDIT* Actually in hindsight, i'd also follow the rules of the size category changes. No more than one up or down. Means no more hydras. Just a thought though. Feel free to comment. **EDIT** (saving scroll space) As BM points out underneath, he's correct. If the mage poly's into anything bigger than medium sized, the familiar doesn't gain benefit from it. As most familiars are small to diminuitive, there would be great restrictions on use of polymorph with the familiar. Tellish |
| barrel_master02-08-04, 08:02 PM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket [B@Polymorph: I've seen ppl add the HP's. This should NOT be the case. Something like that, imo, wouldn't be easily overlooked from R & D. I know i know, please don't laugh. :) I personally think it's very clear that you do not add the hp's to polymorph. Not sure if i've actually ran a fight and gave hp's due to poly, but i'd have erred if i had. Just my opinion. *EDIT* Actually in hindsight, i'd also follow the rules of the size category changes. No more than one up or down. Means no more hydras. Just a thought though. Feel free to comment. Tellish [/B] I agree with your interpretation of polymorph... to be honest, the ability to transform yourself + your familiar into a annis + hydra is just a little too much. |
| sshuit02-08-04, 08:16 PM | If it was only for unattended objects then why does it give a modifier for Dex when determining armor class? Do these objects jump around on their own? Obviously they are intended for worn/carried items as well as unattended. Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket @Jingl/Mag: I'm also inclined to agree, which is why i didn't argue with Mag about it in the fight. I'm very impartial either way. But i read and re-read the section several times since, and i can't find where it says it's for unattented objects. Tellish |
| sshuit02-08-04, 08:18 PM | Cheaper to buy 20 empty pouches and make 'em guess which one to strike. Originally posted by Market_Share @sundering/stricking: Dunno tough to say. But to be on the safe side, my guys are buying 5 spell component pouches. SPIKE |
| Magagumo02-08-04, 09:10 PM | On the note of size modifiers, since the spell allows you turn into any creature (thus overriding the alter self line about your type only), it is still possible to polymorph into many types of creatures. For example, Quasits, which are tiny, can polymorph into medium size wolves. As for familiars, remember that they retain their one low hp and and attack bonus. Notice that Bruno and Tommy have never worked together again, as I don't need a 33 hp hydra running around when Tony has so many mroe hp and better attack bonus. On the note of the annis, I think that is exactly the point of the spell, you'll note that everyone Octavian takes down does not protect themself from fire, and never bothers to atatck him in melee. Sure, he can't atatck that well as an annis, but who needs to fight when you've got tons of fireballs. Yea, Octavian is the perfect example of why monks and rogues are arcane caster-killers.... he just hasn't fought oen in a while. heck, Zorander was barely touched by Sanzin's fireballs, and he's getting evasion next level ;). I think Polymorph is supposed to allow you to change into creatures of any size, as the spell stipulates that you may turn into any creature that isn't smaller than Fine; that statement right there provides new size guidelines that overright alter self. |
| Magagumo02-08-04, 09:13 PM | On the note of the million spell pouchs, you could always have it made out of mithral or adamantine.... it's about 250-500 gp I'm sure, but that's long-lasting protection ^_~. Just check their weight, and compare that to the cost of the material per pound. Cloaks and bags, for example, can be mesh :) In my old epic game I was in, the Balor Blackguard sundered almost every item I owned with his adamantine longsword... I vowed to buy adamantine rings, belts, amulets, cloak, etc after that. Would have cost me around 2-3k, but I figured it would be worth it... but the game never ran after that *tear*. |
| barrel_master02-09-04, 01:10 AM | Originally posted by Magagumo I think Polymorph is supposed to allow you to change into creatures of any size, as the spell stipulates that you may turn into any creature that isn't smaller than Fine; that statement right there provides new size guidelines that overright alter self. I don't know, from the actual discription I really don't see anything about overiding the alter self limitations. But if the board interpreted the rule as having the alter self limitations I certinly wouldn't mind... if I could turn my familiar into a 9 headed hydra then make it fly that would be mad. |
| Pitlords02-09-04, 04:36 AM | Hey guys did I forget any fight? |
| Moherajikuyx02-09-04, 05:01 AM | @Spike: :rofl: really a good read!!! @Everyone: I did a druid as Babar's cohort, to gain 2 things: a valuable ally vs. a fighter, AND a valuable mount vs. a spellcaster or rogue. MS believes that it is a "use cohort to craft" thing, but I don't, it's just using the most suited cohort abilities for the opponent. What do the others think? If using the cohort is a bad thing I'll gladly remove that option from Babar, before next fight. Note: using the companion is possible strictly by the rules, the druid companion can easily order it to obey me for the fight, this is not in discussion: the arena spirit is. @Polymorph: I completely agree ToK! I finally see some sense put into Poly. I'm using Curungur, who's going to soon poly in a better archer form but this will in no case make him a huge archer! Come on... @Mag from the SRD, Combat II Grappling Consequences No Dexterity Bonus: You lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if you have one) against opponents you aren’t grappling. (You can still use it against opponents you are grappling.) If I tell you a thing, give me the little credibility, if not to trust me, at least to check :) (Good it didn't come to play). Originally posted by Magagumo Cruel bastard ;) Thanks :D |
| Caterane02-09-04, 05:09 AM | @Mo: sniff sniff sniff (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2534199#post2534199) |
| ^Rayne^02-09-04, 05:28 AM | I have finished running Felix Rancaster vs. Drakiel Mourning but I have to do some cleaning up on the whole thing to make it flow much better. I should be able to post the entire thing late tomorrow evening Pacific time. Sorry it isn't sooner but I've got to be at work all day tomorrow and I won't be home to make the needed changes till late. Hopefully both players are satisfied with the end results of the match and everythings seems fair to both of them. ;) |
| Moherajikuyx02-09-04, 05:56 AM | @Cat: :thumbsup: @Everyone: I closed the cohort poll, the majority was clear enough. The poll for horseshoes seems to go to open then for anything, with a really low majority... |
| MotherBast02-09-04, 06:04 AM | I think, if I'm not mistaken, Brackin's Ring of Counterspells would have auto-countered the dispel, as that was the spell in it. Still, it hardly matters. He beat me when he cast freedom of movement. |
| Moherajikuyx02-09-04, 06:36 AM | MB: spoiler alert :( SnarkHunter: Babar challenges Hanz (=http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2534534#post2534534), and with a good reason too! |
| Jindl02-09-04, 09:30 AM | @MarketShare - Well done on your fights. I especially like the ghost story :D @Mo - Ah, Anna - Ghost of the Arena, is sooo sneaky that she has become hidden on the roster. Please reveal her at ECL 8. @Mo - Wow, Iron just got a lot tougher. Of course that could be because he has 9 hps too many, but I guess that is offset by the fact that his AC should be one higher (its a +12 armor bonus...) @Rayne, Cat, Ion, Jonah - My fights will be posted later today... -Jindl |
| Magagumo02-09-04, 09:57 AM | @Moh ... I have no idea what're talking about, Moh. I don't recall the losing of a dex bonus to grapple (which Iagree w/ you, it happens) to be an arguement between us.. :confused: @MB *blinks* My apologies, good sir, I did indeed forget the ring you wear. Of course, as you stated, this menat your crit landed, Iron was knocked down to perhaps around 80 hp, he flings another dispel magic (which similar results I'd bet) and then Freedom fo Movement makes the grappler cry. On the up note, you don't have to pay for a new dispel magic to be placed in your ring :embarrass :D @Moh Actually, the histroy of plymorph was to make same creatures (cats, rats, birds) into mighty beasts. 3.0 was filled w/ crazy, rampaging dragon cats :). Now, 3.5 has added the requirement that both the HD of the creature, and the caster level must be greater or equal to (but not above 15) the HD of the creature you are polymorphing into. That's a fairly good cap right there, and trust me, familiars make crappy polymorphed creatures (Wizard BA and terrible hp). Sure, size is great and all, but you'll notice that no one can turn into something that strong yet. Hydras are the biggest creature, and they only have 20 strength as a Huge creature (that doesn't workk real well). Any flier you can polymorph into is generally not that dangerous, and dragons have too many HD (purposefully) for you to attain any of the really big forms. Sure, Curungur can turn into a giant when he gets around 12+ caster levels, but whats a hill giant archer going to do? His hp don't change, Strength doesn't help him hit with a bow, etc. I have yet to see the size issue be big with Polymorph, and I think peole are mistakenly applying the size rule (as I said, it lists in the spell that one can transform into any of those creatures, provided you have the appropriate amount of HD, and as long as it isn't smaller than fien or gaseous, or a creature that is immune to critical hits, or an outsider. Besides, Gargantuan creatures (like Purple Worm) have 16 HD, so no way we can touch that ;) |
| Magagumo02-09-04, 09:57 AM | @Moh ... I have no idea what're talking about, Moh. I don't recall the losing of a dex bonus to grapple (which Iagree w/ you, it happens) to be an arguement between us.. :confused: @MB *blinks* My apologies, good sir, I did indeed forget the ring you wear. Of course, as you stated, this menat your crit landed, Iron was knocked down to perhaps around 80 hp, he flings another dispel magic (which similar results I'd bet) and then Freedom fo Movement makes the grappler cry. On the up note, you don't have to pay for a new dispel magic to be placed in your ring :embarrass :D @Moh Actually, the histroy of plymorph was to make same creatures (cats, rats, birds) into mighty beasts. 3.0 was filled w/ crazy, rampaging dragon cats :). Now, 3.5 has added the requirement that both the HD of the creature, and the caster level must be greater or equal to (but not above 15) the HD of the creature you are polymorphing into. That's a fairly good cap right there, and trust me, familiars make crappy polymorphed creatures (Wizard BA and terrible hp). Sure, size is great and all, but you'll notice that no one can turn into something that strong yet. Hydras are the biggest creature, and they only have 20 strength as a Huge creature (that doesn't workk real well). Any flier you can polymorph into is generally not that dangerous, and dragons have too many HD (purposefully) for you to attain any of the really big forms. Sure, Curungur can turn into a giant when he gets around 12+ caster levels, but whats a hill giant archer going to do? His hp don't change, Strength doesn't help him hit with a bow, etc. I have yet to see the size issue be big with Polymorph, and I think peole are mistakenly applying the size rule (as I said, it lists in the spell that one can transform into any of those creatures, provided you have the appropriate amount of HD, and as long as it isn't smaller than fien or gaseous, or a creature that is immune to critical hits, or an outsider. Besides, Gargantuan creatures (like Purple Worm) have 16 HD, so no way we can touch that ;) |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-09-04, 09:57 AM | Just curious, but do you have to take the racial HD when creating a monster pc? Take the minotaur for example. A level 1 (any class) minotaur is ECL 9 (6racial hd, +2 LA, +1 class). Can i dump the racial hd, and just keep the class levels, thus making a level 1 barbarian/minotaur ECL 3? Tellish |
| Moherajikuyx02-09-04, 11:40 AM | Mag - you wrote it in Iron's last fight :) |
| Jindl02-09-04, 12:32 PM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket Just curious, but do you have to take the racial HD when creating a monster pc? Take the minotaur for example. A level 1 (any class) minotaur is ECL 9 (6racial hd, +2 LA, +1 class). Can i dump the racial hd, and just keep the class levels, thus making a level 1 barbarian/minotaur ECL 3? Tellish No, you must keep the racial HD's. However, when you have 2 or more racial HD's you do not begin with any class levels. So your starting ECL is 8 (6 racial + 2 LA + 0 class levels). After you win your first fight, you can take a level in the class of your choice. -Jindl |
| Magagumo02-09-04, 12:36 PM | *Blinks* Ahh! Miswording there on my part. I meant he keeps his Dex bonus to his Reflex saves :) I accidently typed AC instead of Rex... that explains what you're talking about ;) Sorry Moh ^_^ |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-09-04, 12:54 PM | Originally posted by Jindl No, you must keep the racial HD's. However, when you have 2 or more racial HD's you do not begin with any class levels. So your starting ECL is 8 (6 racial + 2 LA + 0 class levels). After you win your first fight, you can take a level in the class of your choice. -Jindl Thx. I guess i need to save up 24 credits from something i wanna try then. :D Tellish |
| Jindl02-09-04, 01:21 PM | Grimlock vs Harvester (2nd) is posted. Short and bloody... just like Bruno (hopefully ... still waiting on the fight results). -Jindl |
| Ethendril02-09-04, 01:37 PM | Vryk vs. Urig posted. The dice wrought havoc for both sides. -Ethendril |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-09-04, 01:44 PM | Harvey Jr's Equipment Misc: Horseshoes of speed (2100*) Can i ask where you got the haste spell to craft this? @Ethendril: I noticed Urig's hp's are off. (Hit Points: 25 [29 rage] ). 12+3,+4.5+3=22.5 or just 22. So that's 3 hp less than what he should have had. In that case actually Urig goes down to -3 from Vryk's last shot. Also, i believe you had Urig give himself a cure minor when he was at 0? He would have been back to 0 after casting it instead of 1, just so you know. Tellish |
| Magagumo02-09-04, 01:56 PM | Hehe, but whose blood is Bruno covered in, Jindl? :devil: |
| Ethendril02-09-04, 01:59 PM | @Ethendril: I noticed Urig's hp's are off. (Hit Points: 25 [29 rage] I thought this was true initially, too, until I saw the toughness feat. Then 12+4+6con+3 toughness= 25. Also, i believe you had Urig give himself a cure minor when he was at 0? He would have been back to 0 after casting it instead of 1, just so you know. You're right. Should I run all the stability stuff to see who bleeds to death first? |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-09-04, 02:02 PM | Originally posted by Ethendril I thought this was true initially, too, until I saw the toughness feat. Then 12+4+6con+3 toughness= 25. -Ethendril Bingo! and there it is. Doh! Tellish |
| ^Rayne^02-09-04, 02:16 PM | Man two close matches in a row! If only I could make a PC that hits harder! Doh! |
| ^Rayne^02-09-04, 02:20 PM | Question if he is at 0hp at the end like my PC then he can only take partial actions not a Coup-de-grace full attack without going negative himself. So by attacking my PC he goes to negative hitpoints and then isn't the fight decided by who stabilizes or who dies first? |
| Jindl02-09-04, 02:27 PM | Aiki Auk vs Ion Matzumura posted... It was like a science lesson, with Ion's growing into molecules, lots of chemical reactions, etc. -Jindl |
| Ethendril02-09-04, 02:43 PM | Question if he is at 0hp at the end like my PC then he can only take partial actions not a Coup-de-grace full attack without going negative himself. So by attacking my PC he goes to negative hitpoints and then isn't the fight decided by who stabilizes or who dies first? You're right...he can't perform a coup de grace (full round action)...I'll work on this. EDIT: I've added some stability checks to see if it changes anything. The fight has the same result. |
| SnarkHunter02-09-04, 02:51 PM | Damn you chemistry! Shall you pursue me even to the depths of the interweb? Of course I was also the one who wrote an epic play to help me remember E2 reactions so I am weak to such things. Any who in the Aiki Ion match Ion drew a scroll and cast a spell while disabled. Now he could of drawn the scroll without a problem but one may take only a move action or a standard action, not both. One other thing, when a person is disabled or dying (if they have the diehard feat) then the loss of a hp occures only after they complete the action. So if you have someone at -2 hp, and they drink a potion of clw healing three then they don't lose a hp because at 1hp they're not dieing. I think, it sounds plausible anyway. |
| Jindl02-09-04, 03:00 PM | @Snark- Watch the spoilers, bud... Now, if you have already read the Ion vs Aiki match... Yes, Ion draws a scroll and casts in the same round. You're right about not being able to do this. In truth, Ion would have drawn, and then died before casting either scroll: cure light wounds. I'll be happy to go back and fix it, just to save Ion the used equipment. -Jindl Fixed, so now it should be a "balanced equation". :D |
| ^Rayne^02-09-04, 03:10 PM | Jindl thanks for running a clear fun to read and fair fight. I enjoyed reading it very much and I didn't see any flaw with your interpretation of my PC's tactics. I hope you get to run future matches with Aiki because you seem to understand how he works and always seem to have a good feeling for how to run him the way I would. One thing I would like to point out to Ion that he may not know... The speed of 30' isn't an error as you believed from your tactics sheet. Kobolds have great speed despite their small size and still move at 30' not 20'. This wasn't a mistake and I didn't check but I assume Jindl, you ignored his comments and allowed Aiki his 30' movements? They lose 4 points to strength and 2 to constitution for a +2 Dex, 30' speed and +1 Natural Armor. Seems like they get a raw deal but that is the good and bad of what they get. |
| Jindl02-09-04, 03:12 PM | Aye, the little buggers are fast. Ion knew this (we had a little chat about it) but it didn't change his tactics. FYI: Both kobolds and golbins are exceptions to the Small size = Spd 20 rule. -Jindl |
| Bishop the Bardican02-09-04, 04:45 PM | If I am buying scrolls and not creating them myself, can I buy scrolls at caster levels higher than the minimum? Does this violate the no specialized equipment rule? |
| Jindl02-09-04, 04:51 PM | Scrolls and wands may be customized at >= caster level, with any metamagic feats desired. Armor and weapons may be customized using any special material, and any standard armor/weapon enhancements. All other magic items are not customizable at all, and the above items are only customizable within these guidelines. -Jindl |
| Ethendril02-09-04, 05:24 PM | Derezan vs. Sintius posted. It could not have been any closer. -Ethendril |
| Caterane02-09-04, 05:37 PM | The Harvester's 2nd avatar (or little Harvester as Mo like to call it) challenges Clìodhna d'Elrich!! |
| Alathar Vierce02-09-04, 06:45 PM | Stupid question I know its been answered alot, but I gave up on going through old posts hah. resale of old items is 50% right? And if a crafted item by yourself, do you get 50% of normal store price...or 50% of what you paid into it? |
| Arstimis02-09-04, 06:46 PM | @Ethendril: Umm...i think you made a mistake for one spell ..i havent had a chance to read all of the battle so i dont know what kind a difference it would have made. The spell Flame Blade attacks with Melee Touch Attacks. When you add up damage it should be 1d8 +2(fire), str isnt added in, as it is immaterial. You may want to have a look at that..could make a big difference, as Derezan has no AC other than his armor |
| Caterane02-09-04, 06:49 PM | Uhm, Ethendril, there are some serious mistakes in the last fight. The most important one is that a Flame blade makes TOUCH attacks. Sintius would`ve clearly won. And for future fights: summons have a casting time of 1 round. |
| Caterane02-09-04, 06:54 PM | @Ethendril: There are some serious mistakes in the last fight. The most important one is that a Flame blade makes TOUCH attacks. Sintius would`ve clearly won. And for future fights: summons have a casting time of 1 round. @Jindl: Confusing positions in your fight aswell (Ion vs Aiki). |
| Battousai200502-09-04, 07:03 PM | Dang it! The whole point of my strategy was to hit the 10 Dex paladin with my flame blade. That way, i hit a 10 AC, not 16. Why else would i cast flame blade. I wouldve used my spear otherwise:sad: (sigh) Why does luck/fate/fortune this arena hate me so?:confused: @ Arstimis. Flame blade would be 1d8+1, not +2. Its +1 per 2 caster levels. Im only lev 3 |
| Caterane02-09-04, 07:15 PM | Nah na na, Battou, I would raise my hand about this fight, were I you. This clearly affected the outcome. Since you are new you might not have heard of the Senior mods who are there to make a decision in such cases. Jindl, your fight is strange aswell. First, there is this matter with being disabled which you corrected as I just saw. But there are still errors in it: Aiki started from (-22/22) :confused: right in the southwest corner, and stood there the whole fight. Ion even went down there. After this I checked the tactics and asked myself why Ion casts Longstrider and then sets a charge within close range? Aiki readies action, Ion sets charge 80 ft away, charges, gets hit by fire for 6 damage, Ion grapples. Same here: another outcome. Moderators, I know that there are many things to think of but these are serious mistakes. Things like Summons=full round, Flameblade = touch attack or using the correct starting position are basic things that must be done right. I feel deeply for Battou and Ion; they had to watch their characters losing while sitting helplessly infront of their screens. |
| Alathar Vierce02-09-04, 07:35 PM | That would of made a difference yes, as well as having a few more chances to charge instead of standing around while my horse got pinged fending off the wolf. It'd still be close, but not an overwhelming victory as noted by others. |
| Battousai200502-09-04, 07:36 PM | Oh, and just to show not all mistakes were in my opponents favor, Falme Blade does not apply STR to damage. Meaning that Derezan should have had 2 more Hp. Also, the flame blade fire damage should have been docked 1(Arstimis' mistake as noted earlier.) Oh, and as Caterane showed, summoning is a full round. |
| Magagumo02-09-04, 07:41 PM | Well, I can understand if the Mods that ran these fights are v. busy, but it is only Monday. I'm not sure about the Aik fight, as I honestly assume the Mods track positions well, but perhaps this Flame Blade fight could be redone? Same movement, just different attack rolls, so you might not have to spend as much time writing it, as just rechecking attack rolls and hp... Just a thought. |
| Caterane02-09-04, 07:48 PM | Moderator busy = mod fewer fights Well, I better shut up now because my fights are still undone, halfdone at least, but that`s the first time I post them after sunday. |
| Battousai200502-09-04, 08:22 PM | @Caterane(or anyone who knows): How do i contanct Senior Moderators? @Alathar: True, it might not have made an overwhelming difference. But it is also true that a charge would have drawn attacks of opportunity from the summond creatrues i had set up. You think i just summond blindly? It was also the fact that I had cover from a piller. You have to have line of sight to charge. Trust me, i have a lot of respect for a paladin with a lance. (Former Role play Experience. Ah, the joy of being attacked with a spirited charge while you stand and wait for death to come!):invasion: |
| Alathar Vierce02-09-04, 09:18 PM | Well true sir, but with your summoning taking more time thats just a few more rounds of me getting closer to you, and my horse not being pinged to death by sling stones. But who can know for sure though. |
| Ethendril02-09-04, 09:23 PM | I see I've messed up the flame blade and summons. I missed those two things, and it made a huge difference in the fight. What's the policy on fixing screw-ups? Do I re-run it, do I just fix the mistake, or what? What's been done in the past? -Ethendril |
| Battousai200502-09-04, 09:26 PM | @Alathar: Well, that is the problem. If a ball falls and a man catches it, would it have hit the ground if he had not caught it? Law of gravity says yes, but there is always the chance that the man who stopped the ball might have stopped a new scientific discovery! Still, i prefer that fights be as fair as possible. You could have charged me in the time it took to summon. I saw at least 3 chances to hit you when I had flame blade. (sigh) Who can say? |
| Alathar Vierce02-09-04, 09:34 PM | Yeah pretty much my point too, its up in the air right now :) Just no set place its going to fall heh |
| barrel_master02-09-04, 09:48 PM | Originally posted by Battousai2005 @Caterane(or anyone who knows): How do i contanct Senior Moderators? You can punish Ethendrial by posting a complaint here (or perhaps emailing a complaint to moh) and having the 'senior mods' decide if Ethendrial assigned an error point. What is an error point? It's basicly an 'anit-credit'... Ethendrial will have a credit taken away. |
| barrel_master02-09-04, 09:51 PM | Originally posted by Ethendril I see I've messed up the flame blade and summons. I missed those two things, and it made a huge difference in the fight. What's the policy on fixing screw-ups? Do I re-run it, do I just fix the mistake, or what? What's been done in the past? -Ethendril Well, the board has a policy of no re-runs, although mods have done it in the past. It's not looked down on, redoing the fight that is. |
| Magagumo02-09-04, 10:23 PM | Well, the no-rerun policy is mostly a shield for Mods, in that we aren't forced to rerun them. However, if you want to avoid the process of fault-determination, and you have the time to rerun, then feel free to do so. I try to do so if I have time, and if it was an obviously major mistake that I should have caught. Really, it's just personal preference I think. |
| Battousai200502-09-04, 10:33 PM | I think that the fight should be run as fairly as possible. Though, like it says above, this is really your choice. |
| Mercy02-09-04, 11:28 PM | @sshuit - good modding on the Targ vs. Dre' fight. You've got Targ listed as using a Scroll of Shield. Is that correct, from the fight description it seemed like he cast the Shield spell from memory? Also, I know I didn't make this clear in Targ's tactics, I didn't really want to destroy a single scroll with the second acid arrow. My intent was to destroy whatever was keeping Dre's scrolls attached to his body, dropping the scrolls to the ground at his feet. @Moh - I don't want bump Targ with 3 straight losses rule. |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-09-04, 11:54 PM | "To err is human, but to really foul things up requires a moderator." I've never actually re-ran a fight, what i've done was pick up from where the "Greivous" error occured and continue from there. I also extract the rolls that i used from the online roller and keep them all the same using the rolls as they appear. That way, i don't change the luck of the rolls although they may be used for different things. Don't worry Ethendril, i don't think anyone's critisizing you too harshly. Most of us have made worse mistakes in our times and the important thing is we learn from them. I believe optimization has as much to do with moderating as it does with character development. After all, a character who lost to error and used littel to no resources really lost nothing. The win/loss record of a gladiator does not speak much about their optimization as it does a moderators. Obviously if someone goes 12-0, then duh....he's pretty frickin' optimized. But that's unlikely to happen as the amount of different moderators that are assigned to his/her fights. Errors in moderation will happen before optimization fails. I've long stopped greiving over losses to moderation errors. If i didn't, i'd give myself a hernia each and every week. :D And just to show i'm a nice guy, Kiowen, here's your lost touch attack against Herrix. Lost Touch Attack = 6 (http://krisinchico.brinkster.net/searchroll.asp?username=kiowens_attack#8 9297) :D Tellish |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-10-04, 12:00 AM | Originally posted by Alathar Vierce Stupid question I know its been answered alot, but I gave up on going through old posts hah. resale of old items is 50% right? And if a crafted item by yourself, do you get 50% of normal store price...or 50% of what you paid into it? You sell for half book price, which means you almost get your money back for crafted items. |
| Arstimis02-10-04, 01:26 AM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket And just to show i'm a nice guy, Kiowen, here's your lost touch attack against Herrix. Lost Touch Attack = 6 (http://krisinchico.brinkster.net/searchroll.asp?username=kiowens_attack#8 9297) :D Hey, i never said you werent a nice guy Heh, and thanks for the roll oh..do you think you could post the link to the rolls for the actual fight? |
| Moherajikuyx02-10-04, 04:13 AM | I think you guys managed greatly the errors thing. The no-rerun thingie is there not only as a shield for the mods: it's there to make us know that we all learn from our mistakes. A lot of mods already came here and some also went away, some in sadness some because they stopped liking the arena. All of them learned something. All of the players learned too, and redoing a match doesn't make you learn anything, it just proves something already proven. And now, let me show what I feel about mistakes. If you know you would have won, wasn't it for a 1 roll or for a mistake or a cheat, you know that your pc is better than the other's. He can have the satisfaction of the win, if he wants it... I can have the :smirk:! If all three parties agree, anyways, there's no problem at changing the fight as ToK wisely suggested. |
| ^Rayne^02-10-04, 05:04 AM | Felix Rancaster vs. Drakiel Mourning is posted! I want to appologize ahead of time for not organizing all the info into a more readable table. I wanted to do this but as it is already long past the hour to post this battle I wanted to make haste and get it posted. I'm also sorry if I made any mistakes but I did try to run a clean and fair fight. I was actively trying to make sure that no one was awarded extra actions they couldn't make in the time allowed and I tried my best to follow the rules precisely. I hope both players feel I used their tactics as they wished and they respect the outcome of the battle no matter which player it rewards. Rayne |
| ^Rayne^02-10-04, 05:20 AM | Bishop the Bardican, I just wanted to say good fight today... By the way Ethendril you said the reward for the battle was 2700gp! That is incorrect it should be 1700gp for this match between two 2nd level PC's. Bishop I noticed that you've written the incorrect amount on your character sheet because of this error and you will need to change it so your PC won't have too much wealth for a character of your level. |
| Alathar Vierce02-10-04, 06:31 AM | TOK: Thanks, felt stupid asking it, but not mentioned under equipment. Well to me its only a minor error which is normal as with all the rules involved, its hard not to slip here and there. As said above its only human, and on top of that its only a game. |
| Caterane02-10-04, 06:49 AM | @Rayne: You cannot ready a charge, reloading a heavy crossbow is a fullround action and breaking free of the entangled are is also a fullround action. On Drakiel's account go two standard action summons (wolf and swarm) which are fullround action. And some other minor errors. Now to the good points: Obviously you enjoy writing stories which is a good thing. You also always post long texts on the roleplay thread written in a good narrative style. Keep it up. Finishing my fights now... |
| Rosella02-10-04, 07:14 AM | LLMadCow is having trouble running our fights? Or do we have a challenge for longest fight ever? |
| Moherajikuyx02-10-04, 07:26 AM | Yesterday he kept swearing that the fights would have been online today... L-LLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!! |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-10-04, 09:44 AM | Originally posted by Caterane @Rayne: You cannot ready a charge, reloading a heavy crossbow is a fullround action and breaking free of the entangled are is also a fullround action. On Drakiel's account go two standard action summons (wolf and swarm) which are fullround action. And some other minor errors. Now to the good points: Obviously you enjoy writing stories which is a good thing. You also always post long texts on the roleplay thread written in a good narrative style. Keep it up. Finishing my fights now... Now, my turn. :D I hope you don't mind ^Rayne^ but i made some notes while reading your fight. aims his crossbow down at the Sujin and fires. Fireing a missle weapon in melee provokes. Drakiel hurls his first ball of flame at Felix. Attack Roll: 17roll + 1 Drakiel would have suffered a -4 for firing into melee as he doesn't have precise shot. Attack Roll: roll7 + 3= 10 misses wolf’s AC14. Sujin suffers a -4 dex penalty for being entangled. Not that it would have hit, but still. Could be important in other fights. summon another slightly more powerful wolf Full round casting (but Cat already pointed that out) 8roll + 4= 12 Horse is tripped Horses also get +4 for being large, and +4 for being quadrapeds shield hand he holds his heavy flail Now i didn't check the equipment, but this can only be accomplished with a light shield or buckler. left hand free to cast his destruction domain power This isn't a spell-like ability, it is simply called to be activated. Just nitpicking, hopeing to increase your awareness and moderation skills. Not just picking on you. I rarely nit-pick fights because it would consume too much of my time. ;) Just trying to lend a helping hand. Tellish |
| Arstimis02-10-04, 10:07 AM | Tellish, could you please post the link to the rolls for my arena fight that you moderated; Kiowen vs. Herrix |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-10-04, 10:16 AM | Originally posted by Arstimis Tellish, could you please post the link to the rolls for my arena fight that you moderated; Kiowen vs. Herrix You know what. i CAN read. I thought i sent you the link the first time, but it didn't work. I read your pm and your THIRD message. I was just about to post that i posted it at the beginning of the fight to let you know your request was accepted. I usually always post the links in my fights. Just forgot that one. But seeing how annoying you are and not giving me time to dig it up for you, i'm on my way to the fight to delete it. Good luck in yoru future fights. I have more important things to do than to cater to you. Just because i don't do it RIGHT AWAY this VERY SECOND, doesn't mean it won't get done. Sheesh! Tellish |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-10-04, 10:29 AM | Grrrrr I've tried a hundred times to get you the proper link. It's not coming up. That last post was a joke if you didn't know. The link is still at the fight and i've tried re-sending you the link a few times. Anyhow, use "Kiowen_Ignatius" for your search. It will take you there. Tellish |
| Jindl02-10-04, 10:31 AM | Easy there, Tellish. The new guy is just a little excited about his fight. {That's why I only use the online roller for high level matches.} Re: Aiki vs Ion - On the issue of locations, Aiki began at -20,0 (Position A). He won initiative and ran to -22,22 (per his tactics, though he couldn't reach the exact location since he must run in a straight line, I got him as close as I could). Ion went through his preparations as his tactics stated, and Aiki began his readied actions as tactics dictated. Ion has no way of knowing that Aiki is readied, so when his prep is done, I followed his tactics. He said to close for a grapple as quickly as possible, that he has the run feat and longstrider. So, I had him run the length of the field in the only open lane towards the kobold. Ion was concerned that the kobold would flee, so he ran pretty close so that he would be closer is a chase began. He didn't expect a readied flame attack when he got close, nor did he expect the kobold to crit him. Aiki won the fight because he had a readied attack, which hit and put his initiative in front of Ion, allowing him to hit (critical) again. It was good tactics, but it was also a lucky critical. I think I followed tactics for both PC's properly. -Jindl |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-10-04, 10:35 AM | Originally posted by Jindl Easy there, Tellish. The new guy is just a little excited about his fight. {That's why I only use the online roller for high level matches.} :D I was just teasing him. Some reason the link wouldn't work. But i kept making transposition errors in the ID #. My fault. I finally got it down pat and sent him the proper link. :D Tellish **EDIT** Originally posted by Arstimis your a nice guy See Jindl? HAHahahaha. |
| Arstimis02-10-04, 10:35 AM | Wow, jeeze, calm down. First I sent a pm, waited a little most of the day and thought maybe you dont check your pms, and I saw your post on the boards about that attack, so I decided to ask again there, thinking you didn't get my pm. I waited over night for me, saw that you made quite a lengthy post, saw no pm to me, or the link so I thought you might have just missed what I asked. That's what the third one was for....... You threatening to delete the fight kinda makes me think you didn't roll it, but I really don't think you would do that, your a nice guy |
| Caterane02-10-04, 10:57 AM | Ok, I made it. This was the most difficult fight I ever ran. And the longest one. Jindl's flight over the High Forest, Part 2 (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2543299#post2543299) I`ll have Ebelin and Vandaeris sit out. One fight a week is enough work; at least with these high level fights. |
| Rosella02-10-04, 11:03 AM | Atleast my tactics are pretty straightforward :) oh, and Caterane, about the Towershield, do you think it's fair to use it mounted? I can't imagine it giving full cover there and a ride check or something equal might be necesary. And I'm considering using flame arrows or alike to blow something like that apart, does that work at all? and how would such a thing be handled by a moderator? |
| Jindl02-10-04, 11:21 AM | @Cat - Maybe I'm confused, because its hard to read what happened, when the stories are mixed, there's no round-by-round, and the tactics/charactersheets aren't posted. But, I see a lot of big mistakes (I think). Here's a major one... Bruno is cast telekinesis 3 times? Huh? The max range he can hurl and object (with violent thrust) is 10 feet per caster level, so 110 feet. Jindl is 150 feet in the air, out of range of his iron boulders. Please fix this, as you had him cast TK 2 times too many, and had him hitting me with rocks when I was out of range (and that's what won the fight, dealing 71 pts of damage when I was out of range). Also, what happened when I cast wall of thorns, centered on Bruno? It should have been dealing 9 pts of damage to Bruno every turn that he was in it (and depleting his stoneskin, once he cast it). Also, each ongoing spell effect calls for a separate concentration check, so it takes 2 checks (one for sleet storm, one for damage from wall of thorns) to cast any spell... And why did Nox never attack the skeleton after he was animal growthed? How does he grapple me in the first turn, since I had total cover from a towershield. You cannot grapple someone who has total cover. I dunno, maybe I'm seeing things. I'll wait til you post the round by round, tactics, and stuff. But the mistake about TK, I want you to fix now, as it was way wrong, and there's still a lot of fight left. -Jindl |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-10-04, 11:42 AM | @Cat: [@ToK: The following part really pi$$ed me off. Sneak hide wait make a melfs sneak hide wait shocking while you had every advantage. This was really no fun moderating and I hope I never get Kelek again. Sorry to say that.] My apolagies, that wasn't my intention actually. I probably just misworded it. It was meant to be within 30' to get the sneak dmg each and every round, so even his 72hp would be dwindled in nothing more than a round or two. I should have made it clearer and included a contingency for the events that happened. That was my error. I truely enjoyed the read despite your annoyance with running Kelek. He is very annoying to run i have to agree. Hey, maybe i can run him next time? LOL. Cat, though, both the Jindl/Kelek combo fight was truely and enjoyable read. I do have one question about Jindl/Bruno's fight though. Telekenisis uses up all it's force in one shot for hurling stuff. Bruno would have only gotten one shot i think, right? Just checking. But otherwise, fantastic accuracy and great detail. **EDIT** Used: Elixir of sneaking, scroll fly, scroll of fox’s cunning, scroll of improved invis, purple worm poison, scroll of mirror image, scroll of spectral hand, scroll of melf’s acid x2, scroll of chill touch x2, scroll of shocking grasp, scroll of dispel magic, charged item: greater dispell. [total: 3829gp] Done for your convenience Cat. You may cut/paste the above to the fight if you wish. Tellish. |
| sshuit02-10-04, 11:56 AM | @targ. Sorry, that shield spell was from memory. My bad. sshuit |
| SnarkHunter02-10-04, 12:19 PM | [Skymoon: Lance (20!), critical threat (4+17+2(charge)+5(smite)-4(powerattack)) = 24 vs Ac17, critical hit!; Total concealment (50%) = 45%, fails]. That...that hurt Cat. This is why I role the miss chance before the attack! ;) Good fight anyway. Edit: Thats the third loss for Moon so I'm gonna give him a bump. Of course that means I'll have two at 11th level, so he'll be inactive this week while Bilo fights (finally). Let that be a lesson to you Moony. You lose...you sit out. |
| Ethendril02-10-04, 12:52 PM | Well, since it is in my discretion to re-work a fight, I have decided to redo the Derezan vs. Sintius fight from the point I started making errors. I think the errors made were too large to ignore. While I know that only 50% of the combatants will be pleased with the outcome, I tried to follow tactics as best I could. Anyway, I hope it is better (from a rules perspective) this time. I am still learning (a lot). Thanks to those who help with the rules and to those who are good sports, even when they lose. -Ethendril |
| barrel_master02-10-04, 01:05 PM | I have a question regarding cohorts and allies... Are cohorts allowed to bring in their own allies/cohorts and if so, is it then possible for your cohort to have their own cohort and so on? |
| Caterane02-10-04, 01:11 PM | Please fix this, as you had him cast TK 2 times too many, and had him hitting me with rocks when I was out of range (and that's what won the fight, dealing 71 pts of damage when I was out of range). He mem'd it 2x. So only the last one wouldn`t hit. The max range he can hurl and object (with violent thrust) is 10 feet per caster level, so 110 feet. Jindl is 150 feet in the air, out of range of his iron boulders. I thought Telekinesis is long range. Well, it is but Violent thrust is 110ft. Right. I doubt that this had any effect: Bruno would`ve just cast a fly spell before the telekinesis. After that you were at 30hp and he overcharged with an empowered false life, fire protection and stoneskin. You wanted to cast Produce flame, Flame strike and Fire elementals next, all doing little damage agaisnt his protections, at least they would never get Bruno down. Several rounds time for him and don`t think he cannot dish out 30 hp in that time. Also, what happened when I cast wall of thorns, centered on Bruno? It should have been dealing 9 pts of damage to Bruno every turn that he was in it (and depleting his stoneskin, once he cast it). Also, each ongoing spell effect calls for a separate concentration check, so it takes 2 checks (one for sleet storm, one for damage from wall of thorns) to cast any spell... First of all you cannot target what you cannot see so you made the wall around Bruno. It trapped him and rendered him immobile for several rounds. Even with it centered on him, Bruno`s concentration of +18 and his stoneskin protection made it auto-successes to cast spells. Not that it would be possible anyway. Next, move into meduim range and cast wall of thorns with him in the middle of the roughly circlular area, again centering it on the sleet storm if I can't see him And why did Nox never attack the skeleton after he was animal growthed? Because the fight was finished the same round you cast it. I held Nox back until it cast the spell, per your request. And then, it would`ve attacked the skeleton. And it would`ve lost the animal growth the moment it leaves your reach. Nox will remain with me (providing me cover) until I cast animal growth. Then I will command him to attack the Skeleton. How does he grapple me in the first turn, since I had total cover from a towershield. You cannot grapple someone who has total cover. It is a spell, thus able to affect you. Jindl, from the very beginning on your tactic broke down and I had to run half the fight on my own. There were several things were I thought "Well, he wrote it, I`ll do it" - meaning the end of the fight for you, but I metagamed that much. To be honest I even cast the obscurring mist but you were finished two rounds later by Tony, while you buffed on with Deathward and Cats grace. Or the second sleet storm on Tony!? Without ME casting it he would`ve followed you and killed you in less than a heartbeat. And these are just the most obvious moderator's boons. I made a mistake with using one TK spell to often (resulting in 30 damage) but as I already mentioned I don`t think that would`ve saved your day, especially when looking at your following actions, all involving fire. Tellish: My apolagies, that wasn't my intention actually. I probably just misworded it. It was meant to be within 30' to get the sneak dmg each and every round, LOL, then a "little" detail was missing in your tactic. You were lucky. With your fly spell running out I doubt that you would`ve had a chance in melee. Snarky: That...that hurt Cat. This is why I role the miss chance before the attack! Ah no, that way it is all the sweater ...bittersweat. |
| Ethendril02-10-04, 01:13 PM | Are cohorts allowed to bring in their own allies/cohorts and if so, is it then possible for your cohort to have their own cohort and so on? I saw that this is already happening (spellcasting cohorts with familiars). I say no. Two enter the arena per side...maximum. [Cohort takes leadership. Cohort's cohort takes leadership. Cohort's cohort's cohort has a familiar...] |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-10-04, 01:40 PM | @Ethendril: You are correct. Two men enter, one man leaves. hehe. I haven't seen a fight yet were someone's cohort also used their familiar, but i could have missed it. I try to read most fights, even if i'm not involved in them. Otherwise you'd end up with... PC (high cha)12th 10 sorcerer cohort with leadership feat. 8th sorcer cohort-cohort with leadership feat. 6th zozer cohort of a cohort of a cohort with leadership feat. 4th zozer cohort of 6th zozer and final cohort. Would look kinda rediculous. hehe Tellish |
| Jindl02-10-04, 01:56 PM | Originally posted by Caterane First of all you cannot target what you cannot see so you made the wall around Bruno. It trapped him and rendered him immobile for several rounds. Even with it centered on him, Bruno`s concentration of +18 and his stoneskin protection made it auto-successes to cast spells. Not that it would be possible anyway. Next, move into meduim range and cast wall of thorns with him in the middle of the roughly circlular area, again centering it on the sleet storm if I can't see him Cat, its an area of effect, not a targetted spell. So I don't have to be able to see him to put it right on top of him. That's why I used it (because I knew I couldn't see into the sleet storm). If cast on top of him, he would have taken 9 pts of damage a round until he got stoneskin up (and then it would have chewed through that protection in a few rounds). Plus, it traps him so he can't move through it or fly out of it. Running that spell wrong really hurt me in the fight. As for his concentration check, the DC is 10 + damage dealth + spell level. Since the wall deals 9 pts per round to Bruno, until he had stoneskin the DC is 19 + spell level, meaning he could easily fail some spells. What you did with sleet storm on Tony was appropriate. I thought my tactics said that if one of them escapes the first sleet storm to recast it, so you did right there. I just don't think Bruno would have been able to hurt me if he was trapped in the wall of thorns (I expected him to have a dimension door to get out, but he didn't). This comes as a hard loss, since the last 3 losses for Jindl have had major errors on the spells cast, etc. I'm getting kinda disheartened about the quality of moderation in my fights. That is not intended as an attack on you, btw. I'm just noticing that my spells are often ignore/mishandled (like the arrowhawks in the last fight, or the wall of thorns here). I realize I'm the only druid and thus the only one to cast these spells, but I'm having my highest level spells ignored/mishandled, and its costing me the fights. It's really frustrating. -Jindl |
| Jindl02-10-04, 02:15 PM | @Cat - How about you go back and fix/finish the Jindl vs Bruno fight? First, the target must be within 110' of the metal boulder he is throwing, so casting fly doesn't work, because he can't lift the rock to be within 110 feet of me. So, I should still have 71 hps. Even if you run the wall of thorns on the outside of the sleet storm, and he flies out, he must spend a round casting fly, another round moving closer, before he can do anything. And his tactics had him using enervations (death ward makes me immune), rays of enfeeblement (no hp damage, and I counter with lesser restoration) etc. I would have plenty of time to cast produce flame (though I shouldn't since I spellcrafted his resist fire) and flamestrike (which is okay due to the divine damage and his poor reflex save). The summoned fire elementals would hurt Tony, and the summoned Air elementals would beat the snot out of Bruno. And I said to cast obscurring mist (preventing his attacks) and drink the potion: invisibility (causing him to draw and cast a scroll: see invis). I don't think you can write this off as: he could cause 30 more hps. Please correct the fight, instead of have an illegal TK attack, and a second TK which he doesn't even have memorized. -Jindl |
| Rosella02-10-04, 02:33 PM | nothing personal, but lately I'm only seeing complaints about fights. Pointing them out is ok offcourse, but enforcing the rule not to change fights might be a good idea, that would prevent anyone from asking for a refight. (and this thread from clogging up) discussing fights with moderators might be done by PM, not here, since this is a general discussion thread, about certain rules, not about fight specific rulings. Just my 2 cents. |
| Caterane02-10-04, 02:34 PM | And his tactics had him using enervations (death ward makes me immune), well, he has spellcraft too. rays of enfeeblement (no hp damage, and I counter with lesser restoration) Lesser restoration = 3 rounds casting time I would have plenty of time 1: Bruno: Fly, Jindl: Produce flame 2: Bruno: Enervation, Jindl: Flamestrike (~20 dam) 3: Bruno: Enlarged ray, Jindl: Lesser rest. 4: Bruno: Telekinesis, Jindl: Lesser rest. interrupted, Jindl at 30hp 5: Bruno: Shadow evocation, Jindl: Flamestrike (~20 dam), Jindl at ??? hp 6: Bruno: Lightning bolt, Jindl: begins summons, Jindl at ??? hp 7: Bruno: Disintegrate (5d6 if saved), Summons interrupted, Jindl at ??? hp I think he would`ve easily dealt 30 hp with a shadow evocation, a lightning bolt and a disintegrate. He even had a second one; interrupting your full round summons. Time was not your ally. Then he had stoneskin and everything up. In my Flamestrike calculation I even said he failed the save. Jindl, there`s no one who can better understand your frustration than I (for example, the Harvester would be in the Unscathed winners section were it not for a moderator's fault at lvl 3, or Ebelin *sigh*) and it makes me sad that you are not satisfied with the fight - well, I mean one HAS to lose but at least I want to make the fight as enjoyable as possible under these circumstances. I am sorry about TK. I opened my book, flew over the statistics section and read Long range, but the Wall of thorns was a bit unclear (it`s a wall; and you can trap one without a reflex save with him needing two Dc25 str check to break through???). |
| LLMadCow02-10-04, 03:35 PM | Okay all. Computer problems, but fights have been run. Posting is immenent, as I just have to retype the info. Sorry for the delay. LL |
| Ethendril02-10-04, 03:43 PM | Step aside Candessa... Allow me to introduce the arena's new bunny, and only fey: [drum roll] Kiri'endelas is ready for pairings tomorrow. (a special thanks to Jindl for his help). |
| Caterane02-10-04, 03:47 PM | I would still pick Candessa LOL |
| Ethendril02-10-04, 03:55 PM | I would still pick Candessa LOL That's easy to say just looking at her on paper...wait until you see her in person! I mean, how many people do you know with a 27 charisma (besides yourself, of course)? |
| Caterane02-10-04, 04:04 PM | Charisma 27? That reeks like Jindl's handwriting. Ok enough now! I`m going to collect some credits on my own now. Vandaeris, Ebelin and the little Harvester will sit out; only the original Harvester will fight Iron. Mo, maximum fights please!! I need credits for my new Half-celestial paladin/cleric. |
| Jindl02-10-04, 04:13 PM | @Cat - Instead of hypothesizing what would happen, why not just fix your mistakes on the TK and finish the fight? That's all I'm asking. Other moderators fix and finish all the time. This is a high level, important match. It shouldn't end with 2 major mistakes. And please re-read the TK spell. He can't throw the rock at me unless the rock is within 110'. It doesn't matter if Bruno is flying, its the distance from the rock to Jindl that matters. So, when Bruno casts fly, Jindl should still has 71 hps. There's still a lot of fight left. If you want the fight to end as is, then fine. You'll be showing a definite disregard for the quality of your fights or the ideal of moderating without error. If you don't have any desire to run fights correctly, then I don't want you as one of my moderators. If you do want fights run correctly, that is great. It is a simple thing to fix your error and finish the fight. -Jindl |
| Magagumo02-10-04, 04:20 PM | Ok, as I see Harvester has challenged Iron, Moh, I will be challenging a storm giant to become my new "willing" slave :D. Other than that, Zorander is all set and so is Bruno. It should be noted that I have saved 11th lvl version of Bruno, so he can be reverted, but I don't want him unprepared for tomorrrow's pairings.... |
| LLMadCow02-10-04, 04:22 PM | Hey everbody. Please check out Lanesse vs Pale-Rider, Round 2 (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&perpage=1&postid=2545303#post2545303) and tell me what you think. I know, long wait, short fight, what's up? :confused: Here it is in all of it's GLORY! LL :ayyyy!: |
| Jindl02-10-04, 04:24 PM | Originally posted by Caterane well, he has spellcraft too. But unless he could see me (which he can't), or he heard my casting (doubtful, given distance and his listen ability), then he likely didn't realize I cast death ward. Originally posted by Caterane Lesser restoration = 3 rounds casting time Ah, I didn't realize that. Of course my tactics only said to do this if I needed to melee, which I didn't. Originally posted by Caterane 1: Bruno: Fly, Jindl: Produce flame 2: Bruno: Enervation, Jindl: Flamestrike (~20 dam) 3: Bruno: Enlarged ray, Jindl: Lesser rest. 4: Bruno: Telekinesis, Jindl: Lesser rest. interrupted, Jindl at 30hp 5: Bruno: Shadow evocation, Jindl: Flamestrike (~20 dam), Jindl at ??? hp 6: Bruno: Lightning bolt, Jindl: begins summons, Jindl at ??? hp 7: Bruno: Disintegrate (5d6 if saved), Summons interrupted, Jindl at ??? hp 1. I assume he flew upwards 30 feet also? 2. Even if he flies 30 feet up first, I'm still out of range (unless you meant the enlarged enervation?) 3. I wouldn't cast lesser restoration until it was time to melee. So actually I would begin summoning at this time (per my tactics). 4. He still can't TK me because the rock is still on the ground, more than 110 feet away. My fire elementals appear and go after Tony since Bruno is out of reach (flying). 5. If my spellcraft works then I auto-succeed the will save, else I still have a +16 will save to beat the shadow part, then a +10 reflex to cut the 20% damage in half again. He really can't hurt me too bad with this. Meanwhile, I am taking away his hps, which aren't that high... 6. Same thing on the shadow evoc. I can easily make the concentration check when I'm fully buffed (+22 concentration modifier). My air elementals appear and begin flanking/beating the snot out of flying Bruno. 7. Even if Bruno hit me with the disintigrate (if he somehow survived the air elemental's attacks, passed the defensive casting, and hit my touch AC with the disintigrate), I still have a +19 fort save to not die, and 5d6 wouldn't kill me. The air elementals get another round of full attacks, and if Bruno is still alive, he has to deal with another flamestrike, or simple a enlarged Raptor charging + pouncing on him. We can speculate like this all day, but the best course of action is to finish the fight. -Jindl Originally posted by Caterane I am sorry about TK. I opened my book, flew over the statistics section and read Long range, but the Wall of thorns was a bit unclear (it`s a wall; and you can trap one without a reflex save with him needing two Dc25 str check to break through???). Yes, that is exactly how Wall of Thorns works. That's why its a level 6 spell. If that spell alone had been run correctly, Bruno would have died, because he could never escape the thorns. They would have damaged him, then run through his stoneskin, then damaged him some more, until he was dead. |
| Caterane02-10-04, 04:26 PM | If you want the fight to end as is, then fine. You'll be showing a definite disregard for the quality of your fights or the ideal of moderating without error. If you don't have any desire to run fights correctly, then I don't want you as one of my moderators. Hey come on, now that is a bit unfair, don`t you think? Perhaps you didn`t notice but I am one of the moderators with the fewest mistakes in my fights; resulting from my triple checking every thing. This time I was completely freaked off from Kelek's hide game with its thousands of roles. But now you`re coming to me and telling me that I shouldn`t be your moderator any more. Fine. Accepted. I will finish the fight, using the online roller and stick to the exact tactic (where you didn`t say "keep out of TK range") but not today anymore (22:30 in Germany). |
| Magagumo02-10-04, 04:39 PM | *sighs* This is really getting out of hand guys. Jindl I know there were errors, though you do disregard that Bruno has escape clauses (Dimension Door out of Thorns works fine, we did give Cat liberties w/ our tactics). I think we need to calm down here, I would be happy to revert Bruno if it is decided he didn't win, but yelling and saying incredibly harsh criticism to Cat isn't helping. I've thought of you as one of the most leve-headed people here on the boards, Jindl, please do not change my opinion fo you. :/ Also, from a purely technical note, identifying Shadow Evocation does not automatically grant you suiccess, otherwise such a statement would be listed in the spell. After all, you might intellectually recognize it as a spell, but your mind might viscerally experience it as real. Don't hurt my precious illusions more than your high Will save already does ;) I really don't have the time or patience to review everything that happened in this fight, but I think apologies need to be made before people are hurt even more here. Let's be big people. Edit: Ok, completely off this dreary topic.. I have a random idea. Some of us are not liking our current high level characters (the Elder for instance) but we have dedicated a long time to them. So I offer up a fun idea, when one is going to retire a character, one erans a number of credits equal to their current level-2, thus reflecting the number of levels you helped them gain over time. As it takes three creds per level, this would not become hideously unbalanced, but also ensures that one can jump right back into the swing of things. of cours,e this means Jindl would be getting quite a few credits from Elder, perhaps some of which could dive right into his new version. I know other people are considering removing a character for this week and replacing them, so do I have a general agreement with this idea? I recommened an immediate vote to capitilize on this ASAP :) |
| Jindl02-10-04, 04:49 PM | What I was saying is that if Cat is going to be the type of moderator who just wants to get the fight done, doesn't care about errors, and doesn't want to fix the mistakes, then he is not the type of moderator I want running my fights. In my experience, Cat has tried to keep his fights as clean as possible, and has helped me when mine had mistakes. He seemed resistant to the idea of fixing this one, even though its a high level fight, and the winner won by big mistakes. I was surprised that he didn't volunteer to go ahead and fix/ finish the fight correctly, as that is what I would expect from Cat. But simply saying "oops, I cast TK too many times, and you were out of range, so you lose anyway" and not caring about the mistakes, cannot be allowed. I am hoping that Cat does care about the mistakes, and wants to correct/finish the fight. If he doesn't care about mistakes, then he shouldn't be moderating. As for the back-up/escape plans, I was actually counting on them (which is why I wrote my tactics the way I did). But you should take a closer look at Illusions. From the PHB, pg 173-174 - "A character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw." Correctly identifying the spell being cast would certainly count as proof that an illusion isn't real. Thus for shadow evocations, if Jindl passes the spellcraft, he knows its an illusion and auto-succeeds on the Will save. So he makes a reflex save to try and halve the 20% damage the shadow portion still deals. Against a character with good spot/listen and a high spellcraft, Illusions will not be very effective. -Jindl |
| Alathar Vierce02-10-04, 04:53 PM | Will change Derezans sheet back after I get home from work.... :mad: |
| Caterane02-10-04, 04:58 PM | What I was saying is that if Cat is going to be the type of moderator who just wants to get the fight done, doesn't care about errors, and doesn't want to fix the mistakes, then he is not the type of moderator I want running my fights. Jindl, most of my fights have about three times the length of yours. How can you even think that I just want to get over with the fight??? In this case I would just post the stats and be done with it. Quite the contrary is the fact. "If Cat is the kind of mod..." blablabla you behave like you know me for a day but not like several months. Bah! I better don`t listen to this anymore. As I said, I run the fight tomorow when I come home. Hope you`re happy now. |
| Magagumo02-10-04, 05:14 PM | I suppose if we are going to ensure this thing is finished right, I wanted to ask Cat why Tony wasn't back by Bruno's side, in order to have the fly scroll cast on him? (Not trying to complain here, just offering reminders from my tactics) |
| SnarkHunter02-10-04, 05:48 PM | Hey Mo I suppose I should have mentioned this earlier but I'm afraid Hanzis not available to be challenged. I have decided to retire him. A few reasons I shan't expound upon just yet... But look for someone new soon! (possibly in time for tomorrows pairings, but don't hold me to that.) |
| ^Rayne^02-10-04, 06:15 PM | Thanks for all the feedback on the match I ran. Here are a few counterpoints in my own defense on this... From Caterane @Rayne: You cannot ready a charge, reloading a heavy crossbow is a fullround action and breaking free of the entangled are is also a fullround action. On Drakiel's account go two standard action summons (wolf and swarm) which are fullround action. And some other minor errors. I'm aware that loading a crossbow is a full round action, although I didn't realize breaking free from entangle was. (Thanks for the info on the latter). However one of the reason I allowed both actions to happen at the same time was because I believed the breaking from the entangle part represented the mount's efforts not the rider. So Felix could load is Xbow and Halifax could try to break free while this was going on. I could be wrong on this but this is why I did it this way. I was also aware that summoning spells are a full round action but I thought the summoned beast showed up immediately completeing their round and the summoned beast (or beasts) acted the second they showed up as if their own round immediately fallowed their summoners? This was my mistake and I appologize to both players for not doing this right. from Tellish_of_Ket Now, my turn. I hope you don't mind ^Rayne^ but i made some notes while reading your fight. quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- aims his crossbow down at the Sujin and fires. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fireing a missle weapon in melee provokes. Tellish I didn't allow for an Attack of Opportunity for two reasons. 1st the wolf was completely glued to the ground in front of the horse and really was in no position to threaten the rider. Under the circumstances because of height and distance between them and the entangle I didn't believe it would be physically possible for the wolf to legitamitly challenge the attack so in this case I ruled against the AoO. Maybe I was wrong but in this case logic and the entangle spell at the time really made this AoO not seem possible from my perspective. From Tellish Drakiel hurls his first ball of flame at Felix. Attack Roll: 17roll + 1 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Drakiel would have suffered a -4 for firing into melee as he doesn't have precise shot. This sort of goes along with the point above in my mind. I didn't believe the wolf really could be in melee with the rider only Halifax which was the only thing it could really threaten. As such I treated Drakiel's throws as unchallenged attacks not requiring the -4 penalty. Maybe I shouldn't have done this but because the wolf was medium size and not moving in front of the horse and the horse was Large with a medium size man on top who wasn't ajacent to the wolf I felt he was an unmoving target who wasn't weaving around in melee with another opponent so I didn't give him an advantage against Drakiel's attacks. Hopefully this was the right decision on my part but it seems to be up to interpretation because of the circumstances surrounding the event. From Tellish Attack Roll: roll7 + 3= 10 misses wolf’s AC14. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sujin suffers a -4 dex penalty for being entangled. Not that it would have hit, but still. Could be important in other fights. I didn't know there was -4 dex penalty for being entangled but that still would have only subtracted 2 from his AC not 4 and 10 doesn't beat AC12. This however was a big error I wasn't aware of and thanks for pointing it out to me. I will be sure not to make this mistake again. From Tellish 8roll + 4= 12 Horse is tripped -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Horses also get +4 for being large, and +4 for being quadrapeds I took the time to look this up while I was moderating and I saw the +4 bonus for being a quadraped in my search but didn't see the horse getting an additional +4 for size. It appears I really messed up here and I appologize. It wasn't my intention to cheat anyone on a trip attempt. I thought I had researched this enough before I posted but it seems I was wrong. Thanks for pointing this out to me. I won't make this mistake again. From Tellish shield hand he holds his heavy flail -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Now i didn't check the equipment, but this can only be accomplished with a light shield or buckler. I wasn't having Felix using the hand he was holding the flail in I just wanted him to be able to hold his weapon to free up his other hand to hold his DF for the special ability. Thanks for pointing out that it wasn't necessary to have a free hand to use a spell-like ability. I was actually a bit hesitant about this after I did it but I forgot to go back and check it out. Still I didn't know that one couldn't use a shield hand to help hold a weapon that wasn't being used. I will have to check this out and make sure I don't blunder here again. I tried to make sure that the shield rules were followed properly, I even pointed out to the player that the shield bonus would be negated while he was using any of his two-handed weapons (which were the only kinds of weapons he had)! Tellish and Caterane thankyou very much for taking the time to read over my moderating. I appreciate your comments and I thank you both for helping me to become a better and more moderator in the future. To the two players I'm sorry if any of the errors wrongly affected either of your PC's. My only hope is that since they were pretty evenly distributed against your PC's that they more or less offset with one another and really didn't favor either of you in the battle. Thanks again for letting me moderate, I thought the battle was a lot of fun to run. |
| Arstimis02-11-04, 01:48 AM | Finally back up....anyone know what the problem when wizards was? |
| Tharkos02-11-04, 03:26 AM | Originally posted by Jindl Against a character with good spot/listen and a high spellcraft, Illusions will not be very effective. Visual illusions will still be there, even if the opponent has succeeded in the spellcraft check and knows its a Major Image spell. And illusions are especially good at creating decoy stuff to hide behind so your excellent spot check is less useful and to create "background noise" so your excellent listen check is less useful as well. If you want to get rid of the distraction a visual illusion can be you need to dispel it. |
| Tharkos02-11-04, 03:33 AM | Originally posted by ^Rayne^ Tellish I didn't allow for an Attack of Opportunity for two reasons. 1st the wolf was completely glued to the ground in front of the horse and really was in no position to threaten the rider. Under the circumstances because of height and distance between them and the entangle I didn't believe it would be physically possible for the wolf to legitamitly challenge the attack so in this case I ruled against the AoO. Maybe I was wrong but in this case logic and the entangle spell at the time really made this AoO not seem possible from my perspective. During our "Nightmare discussion" I have been enlightened by Caterane that a rider occupies all squares of his mount (no matter what the size difference is ...) and this should probably apply here as well. Strict application of the rules is valued more than applying "real world logic" to a problem. I havent read the fight and so I may be wrong, but this is just a general "hint" from one follower of common sense to another. |
| Moherajikuyx02-11-04, 04:55 AM | Jindl I think your comments to Cat's fight were a bit or two too harsh. Mag - 1.remember the "test if your builds are powerful and survivable". I really dislike that idea, sorry, but pls continue with the good ideas. 2. ok noted; remember that monster fights count as two, as a mod has to deal with a fight for only 1 player. Snark - so Hanz will not fight for the honorary Panza position? :behold: LLMadCow - you had to do 2 fights for yesterday... Cohort of a cohort - it's ok, remember the one ally rule: if you do that you'll have an ally four levels lower than yourself. I believe it's useless. Originally posted by Rosella Pointing them out is ok offcourse, but enforcing the rule not to change fights might be a good idea, that would prevent anyone from asking for a refight. (and this thread from clogging up) discussing fights with moderators might be done by PM, not here, since this is a general discussion thread, about certain rules, not about fight specific rulings. Just my 2 cents. Rosella, I declare you the Arena's Conscience! The no - rerun policy is there exactly to spare the arena people from this. |
| Tharkos02-11-04, 06:16 AM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Cohort of a cohort - it's ok, remember the one ally rule: if you do that you'll have an ally four levels lower than yourself. I believe it's useless. Not that useless if that low level cohort takes care of some pre-fight buff spells to which you havent got access otherwise. At the current levels it would be useless, but a 10th level caster could give you some decent buffs even for a 14th level character ... and a 16th level one for a 20th level gladiator would even be better. Since you cant take the "second grade cohort" with you into the arena nothing would hold them back from emptying their spell slots for buffs. IMO "no cohort for cohorts" should become another "policy" to keep the bookkeeping down to a minimum. |
| LLMadCow02-11-04, 08:07 AM | Okay. Two fights have been run and posted. Sorry for the delays. I'll be better next week, promise. Just remember boys and girls - my only days off are Monday and Tuesday, so that is when I get to run my fights. It's what I have to ork with, but we get new schedules in a fewmonths and we shall see then what I get... |
| Moherajikuyx02-11-04, 08:09 AM | Sounds good Tharkos. LL - good boy! |
| SnarkHunter02-11-04, 08:16 AM | Jindle I do know its an Epic Spot check to defeat an illusion through an auditory component and I suspect that should be theonly way a skill is allowed to do so. Illusionists have enough going against them (detect magic True sight) that adding in spellcraft as well seems a bit much. In any case Donkey (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=73069&perpage=&pagenumber=1) is up! He's an ECL 6, and if anyone could check him out before the pairings I'd appreciate it. |
| Jindl02-11-04, 09:05 AM | All I am saying is that the rules say: If you make your spellcraft check, you know what spell is being cast. Knowledge that a spell effect is caused by an illusion spell is proof. A person automatically succeeds on Will saves if they have proof that it is an illusion. Now, I can see situations, where the illusion is devious, such as a cleverly used major images. In these cases, knowledge of the spell doesn't link directly to the effect. But when a caster casts phantasmal killer, and the target makes his spellcraft, he knows that the effect is an illusion. Thus he automatically succeeds on his will save. Or a caster with shadow evocation creates a fireball. The target knows he cast the 5th level shadow evocation (not the 3rd level fireball) and thus knows it is an illusion. This proof means he automatically passes the Will save. These are the rules. Perhaps they weaken illusionists. But keep in mind that the illusionists still have tons of versatility with their spells, unlike the evocation specialists. And its only against other casters that they have to deal with spellcrafting. We shouldn't just ignore the rules. -Jindl |
| Market_Share02-11-04, 09:30 AM | Hey all, @LL: funny. I liked it. Only thing sleep is a rull-round casting for next time. but actually there won't be a next time, cuz now i'm 5th. :) No more sleep bombs against opponents. @Jindl: by the strictest interpretation if you spellcrafted his shadow evocation:Fireball, you would only discern that he's casting Fireball, not an illusionary one. That only happens after you interact with it, ie: getting hit. @^rayne^: logic or not, the wolf still threatens and still takes a bit out of the rider, and drakiel still gets -4 to hit for firing into melee. @Johan(cellardwellar): I Challenge Thee! Your puny minions are no match for my great falchion. @All whiners: enough. Go out, drink a few beers and get laid. It really helps to take the days stress off. trust me on this one. end. ;) SPIKE |
| Tharkos02-11-04, 09:45 AM | Originally posted by SnarkHunter In any case Donkey (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=73069&perpage=&pagenumber=1) is up! He's an ECL 6, and if anyone could check him out before the pairings I'd appreciate it. - shouldnt WIS be 16 for 10 points ? - 14 points for STR wouldnt result in STR 16 ... in fact its 13 (17) or 16 points (18) and so you have one point left over if I am correct ... - the font should be changed to the usual ugly-looking one (courier new) so the spaces are all the same width ... @all Can everyone start listing the weight of equipment and encumbrance please ? It is required according to the standard character sheet and it is also important for anyone opposed by someone casting Ray of Enfeeblement. On the topic of "cohort for cohort" I can also see the danger of the first cohort being "misused" for buffing only ... if Jindl or Harvey pick up leadership they could pick another caster to do some serious pre-fight buffing and still take their powerful "other buddy" into the arena for the fight. Maybe we should do a "no buffs from cohorts which stay outside the arena" policy instead of the "no cohort for cohorts" stuff. This would stop the potential misuse by characters who already have powerful non-leadership buddies. P.S.: what a mean, dumb and ugly brute ... Shouldnt he be called "Kong" instead ? (and his usual pickup line: "My name is Kong ... King Kong" while holding a Martini (shaken but not stirred)) |
| Moherajikuyx02-11-04, 10:01 AM | No problem with other fonts, if they improve readability, but weight and encumbrance are a must. I'd like to set up the pairings this evening (EU) but there are still quite some pcs unready... I'll do them if the players of LL's fights set ready, to give them the chance. |
| JonahBlack02-11-04, 10:14 AM | See the role playing board |
| Jindl02-11-04, 10:28 AM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx I'd like to set up the pairings this evening (EU) but there are still quite some pcs unready... I'll do them if the players of LL's fights set ready, to give them the chance. Cat is still working on the Jindl vs Bruno fight (he and I have been talking on PM). @MarketShare - If you successfully spellcraft his shadow evocation, then you know it is shadow evocation (and thus could counterspell it with the same spell). Since you know it is shadow evocation, you know that the fireball it creates is an illusion, thus you autosucceed on you Will save. Passing the spellcraft check identifies the spell being cast. It doesn't misidentify the spell as another... -Jindl [EDIT} @Mo - You know Ethendril's new character is ECL 5, and he paid credits for it? [/EDIT] |
| Jindl02-11-04, 10:33 AM | Re: Donkey's stats - It looks like Snark meant for 10 pts = Str 16 + 10 racial +1 4th HD = 27. And as Tharkos pointed out, 10 pts = Wis 16 (not 15). That means Snark really has 4 more pts available to spend on Donkey's attributes, and his Wisdom should be a point higher. -Jindl |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-11-04, 12:21 PM | Kelek/Nevr will be sitting out this week. I feel Nevr will be retiring, but no promises yet. As it stands Silencius/Hurtz will be my only combatants this week. Tellish **EDIT** Just curious, but i was looking at the roster and the new monstrous pc's. So are we deficit spending then? Just curious cuz i have a killer pc i would love to make but didn't know we could go in debt. Please let me know, i'll have it ready for the 18th. Tellish |
| Bishop the Bardican02-11-04, 01:12 PM | I was just looking at my possible fight for this week noticed something strange. Derezan the Crimson is level 4, but he is listed with level 3. Does anyone know his correct level? |
| honeynuggets02-11-04, 01:21 PM | I see that there are some complaints of rule errors during matches. I guess it can be very difficult to judge a match with very complex tactics. Does anyone else think that maybe a limit and form on the tactic should be imposed to simplify things? For example, each match you are allowed to make a list of 20 IF > THEN statements regarding your strategy and each statement can have a maximum of twenty words. Just throwing out ideas. |
| barrel_master02-11-04, 01:22 PM | Regarding the cohort thing how bout just something simple like 'Only 2 beings from any side can enter the arena.' or 3 if that's what you really want? |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-11-04, 01:23 PM | I believe he is actually level 4. He defeated Sintius did he not? But i see that Sintius is at level 4 with a lvl 3 character. Perhaps MO can fix this? Unless something else happened? Tellish |
| Ethendril02-11-04, 01:38 PM | I believe he is actually level 4. He defeated Sintius did he not? But i see that Sintius is at level 4 with a lvl 3 character. Due to a moderating error on my part, I had to rework the fight. This resulted in a different winner. Unfortunately for Derezan, he had already leveled up. So Sintius ended up winning the fight (he has apparently not been leveled up yet) and Derezan lost (he has apparently not been leveled down yet). -Ethendril |
| honeynuggets02-11-04, 01:40 PM | Doesn't anyone else think this Spot check method is ridiculous? Basically it's saying that a PC with a wisdom of 10-11 can't spot someone standing in broad daylight, with no obstructions, if he doesn't have any ranks in Spot and the target person is 210 feet away. Right? -1 penalty for every 10 feet = -20 at 200 feet, so at 210 feet it is impossible for him. I am positive that any normal person without a Spot penalty like eye problems (which would be considered a disease or something in D&D) has the Possibility to see a standing human up to two football fields away (600 feet). And frankly I can see people 1 km away without trouble, but lets just stick to 600 feet. Anyone care to correct me or agree with me? |
| Caterane02-11-04, 01:42 PM | @Mo: Please wait with the pairings. I am rerunning the Jindl vs Bruno fight. I`ll be finished in an hour, perhaps less. |
| Jindl02-11-04, 01:46 PM | Originally posted by honeynuggets Doesn't anyone else think this Spot check method is ridiculous? Basically it's saying that a PC with a wisdom of 10-11 can't spot someone standing in broad daylight, with no obstructions, if he doesn't have any ranks in Spot and the target person is 210 feet away. Right? -1 penalty for every 10 feet = -20 at 200 feet, so at 210 feet it is impossible for him. I am positive that any normal person without a Spot penalty like eye problems (which would be considered a disease or something in D&D) has the Possibility to see a standing human up to two football fields away (600 feet). And frankly I can see people 1 km away without trouble, but lets just stick to 600 feet. Anyone care to correct me or agree with me? Spot checks to see your opponent are only necessary when the opponent is hiding. In order to hide, they must have cover or concealment. So, most of the time, you can see your opponent without a spot check. But, when they step behind a rock (and hide), then you must make a spot to see them. But if you move so that the rock is no longer between you, then they no longer have cover, cannot hide, and are automatically spotted. -Jindl |
| Jindl02-11-04, 02:11 PM | @Mo - Iron's hps are incorrect. "HP 2d12 + 10d8 + 12x3[5], 108.5 hps [132.5 rage]" is not right. It should be 99.5 [123.5 rage] Also, keep in mind that using handle animal to tell Anticus to "perform" the activation of the boots of speed, is a move action for Iron. It's a move action to direct an animal with the handle animal skill, unless you are a druid/ranger and its your animal companion. -Jindl |
| honeynuggets02-11-04, 02:14 PM | In Zorander's duel again the monk Nev... something they both circled around a rock at one point and Zorander was taking a 5 ft step to put an edge of the rock between himself and Nev, allowing him to make a Hide check due to cover. My question is...isn't there a general rule that a DC 20 spot check automatically notices the presence of invisible creatures within 30 ft distance? Wouldn't that apply here? |
| Caterane02-11-04, 02:15 PM | Here`s the Rerun Bruno vs Jindl Bruno VS Jindl (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2549551#post2549551) |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-11-04, 02:28 PM | Originally posted by honeynuggets In Zorander's duel again the monk Nev... something they both circled around a rock at one point and Zorander was taking a 5 ft step to put an edge of the rock between himself and Nev, allowing him to make a Hide check due to cover. My question is...isn't there a general rule that a DC 20 spot check automatically notices the presence of invisible creatures within 30 ft distance? Wouldn't that apply here? Yeah, there were many oversights. I don't complain much anymore. Gets long and tiring. Tellish |
| Arstimis02-11-04, 02:31 PM | About sintius not being ready....he hasn't had a chance to level up due to Wizards being down yesterday, and now school today. He should be able to in about 4 hours......same with Kaigan, they say sorry for the delay, and hope you wait |
| Caterane02-11-04, 02:31 PM | Honeynuggets? Did I miss something? |
| SnarkHunter02-11-04, 03:02 PM | @Honey Until one gets hide in plain site (which Zorander has now of course) loosing cover means that one is automaticly seen. Thats why flying is good, and spells like obscuring mists or Darkness are helpful. However there is an alternative with the snipe action which allows you to hide imdiatly after taking a single ranged attack. I think Shot on the run will allow a similar tactic but I'm not sure. @Cat: well obviously this fight has less flavor but I hope everyone appreciates the extra work you put into it. @Jindle: obviously I can see where your coming from with the spellcraft checks, but your overlooking a very important part of illusion magic. You must interact with the illusion before you can disbelive it. i.e. you see Bruno Hovering 15 feet from you he casts a 5th level spell, oh of course-shadow evocation. But then when you get hit by the spell you would still need to make the save, "ridiculous!" you exclaime but to take a logical tact this is the only way to respond. While there is a shigh correlation between Bruno casting Shadow Evocation and Jindl being hit by a Fireball Correlation does not imply Causation! At any given moment in this combat an inkling of doubt must exist in some corner of Jindle's psyche that Bruno's playing fair. In fact...theres no way to be certain! At the very moment Bruno casts Shadow evocation Bilo may be waiting 300 ft off with a readied action to cast his own fireball in the distraction of the fight. Not until the moment of Truth (Fireball in the face) can Jindle tell with absolute certainity (by means of a will save), that the spell is ficticious. Similarly for a phantasmal killer. The Banshe rising with a wail from the floor to claw out your heart is almost certainly positivly correlated with the Illlusionists incantation... but there may also have been a banshee in the floor. Finnally The illusion school makes no mention of Spell Craft perse, and neither does the skill description. Thus this goes down as "nice idea, no evidence" in my book. Also Re: Donkey-I'd thought I'd checked those points already, but I'll fix em quick now. One thing though, I thought you didn't retroactivly include stat increases for creatures with 4+HD, since they (theoriticly) are included with racial Mods. @Thakros: I was in a hurry this morning but I'm adding weight right now. |
| ^Rayne^02-11-04, 03:04 PM | I noticed that in 1st round matchups it looks like my PC Vryk will be taking on Drakiel for the 2/11 matchups. In my last battle my PC used a Arcane Scroll of Ray of Enfeeblement, CL 1 (-wt) 25gp and I put this used up item in the Past Expenditures section of my character sheet and bought another one for this upcoming match. On the flip side Motherbast used the following in his last battle (I know because I ran it)... 1 Scroll of Shillelagh (25gp) 1 Potion of Enlarge Person (250gp) 1 Scroll of Bull's Strength (150gp) 1 Scroll of Bear's Endurence (150gp) 1 Scroll of Produce Flame 5th level (125gp) 1 Scroll of Spider Climb (25gp) 1 Scroll of Summon Swarm (150gp) And interestingly enough he has all of these items on his character sheet without paying for them. Items used in a lost battle or any battle are not given back for free before the next battle are they? How can his PC be ready for today's pairings when his sheet has all the used items from his previous battle given back to his PC for free? |
| SnarkHunter02-11-04, 03:09 PM | @Rayne: Yah thats one of the er...dirty secrets of a level 2 fight. Basicly if you spend a lot of resources and still lose the fight you can reenter the exact character (probably with a small name change) for full cash. |
| Caterane02-11-04, 03:13 PM | @Illusion topic: Illusions are surely not defeated by a simple spellcraft check. Seen Matrix where they stood on the skyscraper and he had to jump off of it? I wouldn`t have done it, not for all the money in the world. Perhaps my heart would`ve even stopped beating from the very real shock (death) - or at least it had some tremendous impact on my psyche and body (3d6 damage) but I would`ve CERTAINLY not been standing up after the jump with no effects suffered. That`s how PK works. On top of that illusions like PK and Shadow evocation deals real damage despite the save, so you don`t stand there - looking relaxed - while getting burned by the half-real fire. |
| ^Rayne^02-11-04, 03:15 PM | The name of this PC isn't changed and I think that is a bunch of bull. I can't believe players are allowed to do that for 2nd level fights! That doesn't seem fair or honest under any circumstances. If you use up all of your scrolls in one bang in your 1st round fight and don't win then that money and those items should be gone. Is that really how things work in these games because that is a big problem as I see it. |
| Jindl02-11-04, 03:25 PM | @Rayne - The new incarnation's name is: Dra'kel Mourning Though it is sorta stupid, there's no real way to prevent it. It all started a long, long time ago, when a halfling named Milo Darkleaf lost and was replaced by a well-known, evil little cousin of his (Bilo Darkleaf). In starting a twin PC with a similar name, Snarkhunter was the first to exploit this rule. But really, it's not a bad rule. If the PC wins and blows all their money, then they will have less money later. Plus, starting over means you can't bump with three losses (which Drakiel would have done by now, since he's lost 4 times at 2nd level, under different aliases). There is a benefit to not spending cash at 2nd level, so letting people restart is a good way of doing things. -Jindl @ Mo - Anna and Jindl are ready. Please only 2 fights for 1 credit this week. Can I moderate the Bruno vs the Storm Giant monster fight? |
| ^Rayne^02-11-04, 03:28 PM | I went back and checked again and it seems he switched Drakiel's name to Dra'Kel but his wolf is still name Sujin and he also still didn't fix his Skills as I pointed out they were incorrect in the last match I ran with the same PC... Skills: 24 as Druid, 6 as monk)Found one mistake with your Skills… Look below for change. Concentration: 7 (1 Rank Monk, 4 Druid, 2 con) Hide: 6 (3 Rank Monk, 2cc Druid, 1 dex) Spot: 9 (1 Rank Monk, 4 Druid, 4 Wis) Spellcraft: 6 (1 Rank Monk, 4 Druid, 1 int) Spellcraft: 5 (1cc Rank Monk, 4 Ranks Druid, 1 int) [Spellcraft isn’t a Monk skill and can only be a cross-class skill under the circumstances so it only counts as 0.5 right now which rounds down. Handle Animal: 6 (4 Rank Druid, 2 tool) Ride: 7 (4 Rank Druid, 1 dex, 2 tool) I still think a player shouldn't be able to do this. Spending all that money on one use items and then having the whole boat load of them restored isn't right. Obviously Motherbast knows about this or he wouldn't have changed the name by the 'n'th degree and kept everything else precisely the same. I wasn't aware this sort of thing was going on till today and I really can't believe it would be allowed. |
| Caterane02-11-04, 03:34 PM | Drakiel? Dra`Kel? Drakel? Someone seems very concerned about his win/loss ratio :rolleyes: |
| honeynuggets02-11-04, 03:48 PM | Since when can you use a Tower Shield on a mount for Total Cover? Your legs are still exposed during a frontal attack so therefore it isn't Total Cover, especially since the PHB specifically describes varying amounts of cover like peering around corners or through arrow slits as only giving +8 AC. Two legs are a lot more flesh than is presented when peering around a corner. So Voliana could have been attacking Babar and not wasting time attacking the very nice mount. Where do you buy outsider warhorses anyway? Can you buy creatures from the Monster Manual for these duels? |
| SnarkHunter02-11-04, 03:50 PM | Hey Cat, I replied to your PM btw. No dice. |
| kattattack2202-11-04, 04:00 PM | Just leave the poor guy (MotherBast) alone. Not everyone's first gladiator works out as they would like. Appartenly, Motherbast likes the idea of a druid/monk but hasn't quite gotten it right yet. This arena is supposed to test builds and equipment is part of a build and in the beginning with so little gold equipment is a precious thing. If the PC wins and blows all their money, then they will have less money later. Totally agree, that money becomes important when buying magic items so you get some decent magic items that you can use for many fights without having to worry upgrading anytime soon. Espeically since most are 4k+ gp. |
| Caterane02-11-04, 04:07 PM | @Snark: At least your answer is good for my ego :) @Mo: What about updating the inactive list? I would suggest to delete following characters: Krakskul, Prexx (1 won, 2 lost) Ellebereth, etherealdragonfly (0 won, 0 lost) Faffle, tate (0 won, 1 lost) Carane D'viel, Alathar (1 won, 0 lost) Buttmunch, sloisel (3 won, 3 lost) GD Bebit, sloisel (1 won, 0 lost) not core Uber Munch, thavriol (0 won, 0 lost) not core Kern Tel'Kar, Kukanil (2 won, 3 lost) Ralin, wolfwings (1 won, 1 lost) Imitril, Imizael (3 won, 2 lost) Aris the Longstrider, Imizael (1 won, 2 lost) Rizzen Pharn, Imizael (1 won, 4 lost) Yarin Patch, KerlanRayne (1 won, 1 lost) Rito Maya, Moherajikuyx (8 won, 14 lost) (before it gets any worser) |
| ^Rayne^02-11-04, 04:15 PM | Apparently this is the 4th time his gladiator hasn't worked out and at least the last two builds are exact replicas of one another if not all of them. He is spending a ton of his money on magic that should win him the contest but when it doesn't go his way he just starts it over again. That isn't very fair for people who have to challenge 'fresh legs' every time they match up against him. Look at my PC for example. I lost and used a scroll in the contest. I lost that money and bought another one which mean I'm out that money. His PC on the other hand used items and got them all back for free to use against my PC and it doesn't cost him a dime. Instead of relying on the resources he was left with he is using the all or nothing approach and when it doesn't work he gets rewarded for it? That doesn't sit well with me and if these matches are to be fair then sometimes a player who uses an all-or-nothing approach may have to live with a handicap if their strategy doesn't pay off. If they can't get it to work they shouldn't be coming back in time and again with the same character. It isn't an attempt to test their PC builds anymore (after all he's tested it four times in a row now), it is a way to stack the deck in their favor and an attempt to control their win/loss ratio. |
| LLMadCow02-11-04, 04:29 PM | @ALL - Here is what has been happening to me for months now. If I run more than 1 fight, I am almost guarnteed that I will not get the 2nd fight posted within the time restrictions, so I get a debit (-) point next to my name or I get a credit (+) taken away. As I stated in an earlier post, my days off from work are Monday and Tuesday and although I am willing to dedicate enough time to run two fights, I cannot always get them posted by Monday night. So, no matter how much I try, I get assigned two fights and never come out ahead, since at least one, if not both, of the fights I run 'Get's Posted Late' and I do not feel wholly responsible for this. Last night the boards went down, so I got out of bed at some ungodly time to check and see if I could post them (Okay, 6AM may not be so bad, but I work during the afternoon and evenings!) I, too, would like the chance to save up credits for an advanced creature, but this will never happen with how things have been going. I have watched myself lose 5 or 6 credits just from posting late. I know I messed up when I dumped a fight at the beginning of January, but that was my fault all the way. I can stick to running no fights and just play one PC. I really do want to play more than one, and maybe I should just stick to people who understand my schedule. I leave it to all of you to decide my fate. Drop me to one PC a week, or let me keep my credits if I get fghts posted by Tuesday night (Barring any site outages by WotC) and leave it at that. I am not going to consistantly run fights and earn credits just to have my credits stripped away due to posting fights after the deadline. If I had Saturday/Sunday off, that would be doable, but not like his. Sorry. LL |
| Caterane02-11-04, 04:43 PM | @LL: We have more than enough people willing to take over your fights if you cannot finish them. There are 3 moderators with negative accounts due to new LA+ PCs, and I want to collect credits too for my new Halfcelestial. No problem. |
| Jindl02-11-04, 04:51 PM | Originally posted by Caterane @Mo: What about updating the inactive list? I would suggest to delete following characters: @Mo - Ha! It wasn't me this time, who asked you to do this! :P But, um, you can also delete the Elder from the inactive list, and move him to the graveyard. He is "Retired due to Senility". @Honey - According to the rules, a tower shield's ability to provide cover is not restricted when a character is mounted. @Rayne - Give MotherBast a break. He keeps trying this monk/druid idea because he thinks it will be good once he gets to wildshape. He has a choice between restarting or not (and maybe getting to bump with 3 losses). Since he is restarting, he will never get past level 2 without winning, and that win will be very expensive, delaying his finances later in life. Plus, he is moderating an extra fight just to have this character (and that's 4 fights so far, and the character is still level 2). Some builds develop late in life. We allow you to restart a character at level 2, as long as the name is different. If he wants to keep retrying his monk/druid, then fine. He'll keep modding an extra fight, and if he eventually gets an expensive win with his one-shot items, then his budget will hurt later. @LL - I noticed a similar thing. I ran an extra fight 2 weeks ago, for an extra credit. But when I posted the fight on Tuesday, I lost the extra credit. So basically, I ran an extra fight that weekend (which took like 4 hours) and got nothing for it because the fight was posted a couple of hours late. I don't like the system this way. Personally, I think that we give too much time for tactics. I would say: Pairings Thursday, Fights begin Friday (for those who have tactics), Tactics due Saturday (at which point defaults will be used), and Fights are late on Wednesday. Basically, one day of "tactics time" was shifted into "running fights time" giving moderators more ability to avoid late penalties. But, until they take this system, I would suggest running 1 character a week, and 1 fight a week, to get 1 credit a week. Perhaps Clio and Herrix could take turns? -Jindl |
| Ethendril02-11-04, 05:01 PM | I would say: Pairings Thursday, Fights begin Friday (for those who have tactics), Tactics due Saturday (at which point defaults will be used), and Fights are late on Wednesday. Basically, one day of "tactics time" was shifted into "running fights time" giving moderators more ability to avoid late penalties. I like this. Tactics can be done in a half hour. I also don't run fights on Saturday or Sunday. I run them on Friday if I already have tactics, or on Monday if not. I also had to post on Tuesday last month with a site outage. This is a good idea. -Ethendril |
| Magagumo02-11-04, 05:07 PM | @Jindl Aww.. I liked the Elder :(. He was the one person in this arena who made Bruno scream and despearately desire to win initiative... that 1st round Feeblemeind (DC 23 + 4 for being an arcane caster vs. Will +12) really made me nervous. And considering the save would have been higher.. *shudders* I was going to have to buy a ring of oOunterspells just to get feeblemind protection :D... the original plan was to magic jar into Tony, but that's just a no-go unfortunately *sigh* I would love to have you mod the Cloud Giant fight, Jindl. I assume I send you tactics and you run it like a normal fight? @Cat Thank you for taking the time to rerun the fight, I admire your dedication and also continue to believe you are this board's superior storyteller. If I may ask, how long have you been DMing? I still struggle with descriptions in my game (making the places the PCs visit vivid and exciting, as well as trying to keep fights an interesting event, rather than a 1-hr crawl.) Any personal advice to give? @ Ethendril *Begins to fall into a violent coughing fit* Whose tactics take only a half-hour to write? Zorander's maybe.. but you should see Bruno's flowchart :P |
| Ethendril02-11-04, 05:16 PM | @ Ethendril *Begins to fall into a violent coughing fit* Whose tactics take only a half-hour to write? Zorander's maybe.. but you should see Bruno's flowchart No wonder I lose so many fights...:embarrass |
| Caterane02-11-04, 05:22 PM | @Mag: Thanks. Well, I am DMing since I am 16 and... *thinks* ...*cough* :eek: 11 years!? Holy $hit I am old... *goes to bed* |
| kattattack2202-11-04, 05:30 PM | Ony challenges Laness Deville (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2550851#post2550851) Do you accept? |
| Caterane02-11-04, 05:41 PM | Ony delivered his challenge to Laness, but during the whole thing she could not stop laughing. Ony stormed out and down the hall angry that she thought his challenge a laughing matter. *lol* the world turned upside down |
| MotherBast02-11-04, 05:44 PM | @Rayne: About Drakiel, Drakel, Dra'kel Mourning, Moorning, blah blah blah.... The "rename" policy was started a long time ago, and I am not the first to use it. The fact is, even if I recreated the entire character after every fight, it would wind up looking much the same anyway, as the concept I am using is the "wild-shaping Monk/Durid" from the FAQ on the Optimazation forum. It simply easer to change the name and start from scrach. As for having "tested it 4 times already" you might notice that all 4 were against the same build type, and all 4 had access to resorces that simply shut this build down at this level. So really its only been tested once, since it was the same test, with the same result, 4 times. Now, I could have left Dra'kel's name the same from the very begining, and tried for the 3 loss bump, but at the time, not knowing all my fights were going to wind up being aginst the same type of character, I thought "restarting" would get me to level 3 faster. I was wrong. It wasen't about my win/loss record. This guys win/loss record will get real good real fast once he gets wildshape. Untill then hes cannon fodder. My only concern was the fastest way to level 6. If I new then what I know now, I would have just let him get kicked around and bumped. As for that skill point issue. I have it listed as "1cc rank monk" I spent all 6 of my actual monk ranks on other skills, however, and shouden't even have the 1cc rank. It must have bee leftover from one of his previous incarnations. I missed it when you listed it in the fight, but I'll fix it now. If you really feel it unfair what I am doing with Dra'kel, I will agree not to fight your PC if that is what you are worried about. Then you need not worrie that I have any unfair advantage over you. It might also be worth pointing out that the second Dra'kel wins his first fight the "rename" option is lost to him, as he can't restart at level 3. Also, if Dra'kel looses his next fight, I'm giving up on him anyway, in favor of creating a monster PC. [edit] Also, about the fight you ran with Drakiel. First, well done on the story. I enjoyed it very much, and few mods put such detail in low level fights. About the mistakes, severl others have already pointed out the summoning/mount/entange isseues, so I'll skip those. One thing that didn't get mentioned was that the rider would have needed to make a save every round he was in the entangle or become entangled as well. Someone else also said you can't ready a charge, as its a full round action. I forget who said it, but they were forgetting the "partial charge" action, which may be taken at any time you may preform only a partial action, such as when you are readying an action. So, you actually ran the end of the fight correctly, as I belive he was in range for a partial charge, which allows movement up to your full-speed, but not a double move, as a regular charge does. A partial charge is also concidered a standard action, altough you may only take it when only partial actions are allowed. @Honey: You are correct in that a spot check can be used to spot an invisible creatrue/object. I ran the Zor/Nev fight, and in that fight, Zor was never invisable. The spot check would have needed to beat his hide check, not a set DC. When a character is hiding, he isen't invisible. The DC of the spot is always the Hide roll. In the case of that fight, Zorander had a hide roll modifier high enough to beat Nev's spot even if Zor rolled a 1 and Nev rolled a 20, so every time Zor 5' steps and hides, he sets an impossible spot DC. The only reason he was hidding was to take away Nev's ability to Deflect Arrows. He knew Nev would be able to see him with a 5' step of his own on his trun anyway. |
| Jindl02-11-04, 06:38 PM | Originally posted by Magagumo @Jindl Aww.. I liked the Elder :(. He was the one person in this arena who made Bruno scream and despearately desire to win initiative... that 1st round Feeblemeind (DC 23 + 4 for being an arcane caster vs. Will +12) really made me nervous. And considering the save would have been higher.. *shudders* I was going to have to buy a ring of oOunterspells just to get feeblemind protection :D... the original plan was to magic jar into Tony, but that's just a no-go unfortunately *sigh* I would love to have you mod the Cloud Giant fight, Jindl. I assume I send you tactics and you run it like a normal fight? You may continue worrying. The Elder is being replaced by a better version. Such are the things I learn from Mo (Iron and Bonanaza) and Cat (Harvey 1 and Harvey 2). The second incarnation is always better. So, expect the new Elder to arrive soon. As for the monster fight, I thought it was a Storm Giant? Yeah, send me the tactics and I'll run it this weekend just like a normal gladiatoral match (he is likely a friend of Tony, come bent on revenge). -Jindl |
| Battousai200502-11-04, 06:38 PM | How much does a giant eagle full grown cost? |
| Battousai200502-11-04, 06:49 PM | Never mind. 4k plus training, right? |
| Ethendril02-11-04, 06:56 PM | @Snark: LOL: VERY funny backstory on Donkey's character sheet! |
| ^Rayne^02-11-04, 07:05 PM | MotherBast, I appreciate you taking the time to post on this matter. After being scolded by the others for being too hard I've stepped back from this whole thing and decided I was being a bit mean spirited. Better yet I will take a match verses your PC with Vryk to show there are no hard feelings. I still haven't got a clue how Vryk could beat the tactics you outlined from the last match because he isn't really designed to deal with PC's who have climbed up columns but I welcome the challenge. Please accept my appology for dropping the bomb on you. I was just surprised that players were allowed to rebuild a PC over again when they lost. I really am surprised your PC hasn't won in four matches because from my perspective he is a very tough opponent. I especially feel this way after DMing him. I thought for sure that your PC would make at least one more ranged touch attack with that Produce Flame spell when I was running it but I guess it wasn't in the cards for him that time. Anyway I've said my peice on this and already taken my lumps. Vryk will take and accept any challenge from your PC and if you win, good for you! You deserve it after so many battles. |
| LLMadCow02-11-04, 07:12 PM | Originally posted by Caterane @LL: We have more than enough people willing to take over your fights if you cannot finish them. There are 3 moderators with negative accounts due to new LA+ PCs, and I want to collect credits too for my new Halfcelestial. No problem. It's not that I do not have time to run them. I enjoy running them and I hope that you enjoy reading what little I have to offer. It is just that my schedule requires that I run them on Monday or Tuesday, to be posted by Tuesday night, and this week the system went down, else I would have had it posted. I agree that everything MUST be posted by Tuesday night. I have had so many Credits (+) removed due to late postings (Read Tuesday) that I would like to see this: When Mo gets to the boards Wednesday morning, anything not done is late. That way I can run and post on Monday or Tuesday. I want to run an advanced character. I too need to build up some points. :) If you do not want me running, let me know, but don't have me run extra fights just to lose the same credits I am working for... Also - Did anybody like the pre-fight story I did for Ilene and Voliana? |
| MotherBast02-11-04, 08:59 PM | @Rayne: Good to see you in better spirits again. Just so ya know, I took no offence from anything ya said. You never insulted me, just the system I was exploiting.:D At least if our PCs fight you know what to expect. I have cut and pasted the same tactics 4 times in a row. Your guy wont be so easy to judge... |
| kattattack2202-11-04, 09:46 PM | Also - Did anybody like the pre-fight story I did for Ilene and Voliana? Yes! It was hilarious. Not to give anything away, but good use of mistaken idenity. I also double checked on the Voliana thing and had a good laugh. I highly recommend for everyone to read it here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2547498#post2547498) if they haven't already. |
| sshuit02-11-04, 10:28 PM | I can't believe you "out"ed Voliana ;) Ah well, now that the cat's out of the bag, I might as well change her gender officially. Originally posted by LLMadCow Also - Did anybody like the pre-fight story I did for Ilene and Voliana? |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-11-04, 11:37 PM | @^rayne^: when i created Hurtz, i mistakenly drank a potion of hide from animals thinking it would protect me from Elder's familiar. They are magical beasts as i learn in my first fight in the optimization arena. He went 0-4 after that. I had used almost all my resources in that match only to be put to sleep while trying to sneak up on him. But i kept him going and perservered even though all i had to fight with was like 2 bolas, a net, and a scimitar. Hurtz has gone 8-4 since then, finally caught up to Elder and got my revenge vs the ancient elf. Not a terrible record by any stretch. I had a few weak fights were i got a little depressed and really didn't try my hardest. But that was back in the "old days." Just to let you know, not everyone does the name-change thing. Speaking of retirements and recreations, i feel a retirement coming up soon as well. But i'll hang on for a few more weeks just to see. Tellish |
| ^Rayne^02-12-04, 12:12 AM | I don't plan on retiring either of my PC's anytime soon. In fact that brings up something I'm wondering about... When PC's get to a level beyond 20 do they continue on into epic levels or it that it? I would love to move on into epic levels if it goes that far but I haven't seen anything that says that these battles will ever be fought at the epic level. Anyone know the official word on this? |
| Pitlords02-12-04, 07:12 AM | PAIRINGS BEGAN! |
| Moherajikuyx02-12-04, 07:19 AM | nuggets - you're right, I dropped using the tower shield like that. It's really broken. I think tower shields should grant total cover in exchange of a full round action, and only vs. at least 30' away. I think there's a sage ruling coming about that, should become a std action, not sure though. ^Rayne^ - you're partially right, but that is unavoidable. If you feel spoiled you can do the same, it's up to everyone's conscience. MB: I suggest not putting too much effort in the first-try of any build (and I suggest not giving too much credit to the FAQ builds ;D) for the examples like Bonanza->Iron, Harvey-> Little, and Elder-> ...:confused: Elderer? Elderest? Uhm... What about John Paul? :D LLMadCow - I didn't know there was a boards hangup, I think that can easily be recognized as major force cause: credit given back. Voliana, Lady of the Grey - :rofl: the Grey is a really famous bar in the Chueca suburb of Madrid! Sshuit I wonder if you knew this. It is a fact with quite some implications... Don't ask how I know... :behold: Jindl - well, actually the system is already that way, but lately I was a bit too permissive with the times. I think you're right, we should get back to full efficiency. Sadly we're already late this week, but to give it a stop: tactics have to be sent by friday, satuday moderators can begin to fight with default tactics! ME DONKEE - :rofl: ^Rayne^ - I don't like the epic stuff. Balance is a ridiculous concept there. I'm already tempted to leave Iron be, as I like lower levels more than higher ones. But that's just me: there's no decision yet because no arena ever went that far, they all failed way sooner. |
| Caterane02-12-04, 07:20 AM | HarHarHar, let`s see if I can make a quick "jindling" *edits sheet* HARHARHAR |
| Pitlords02-12-04, 08:31 AM | PAIRINGS DONE! shame on you Cat! :P |
| Caterane02-12-04, 08:33 AM | *Wakes up* Huh? What happened!? ARGH!! Jindl has cast a magic jar on me!!! |
| Moherajikuyx02-12-04, 08:45 AM | Arena, say hello to the new players and to a new moderator! Pittbull and Mustadio[MoF]: welcome! You were just in time to get paired! Remember, no pc editing after the pairing. Hatzinger: have fun! Send the email asap, maybe even to your players to save time. Please read carefully all the rules in the first page of the gladiators thread, and read the linked posts in case you have to deal with undead, riders, hiders and so on. :) |
| Myrridin02-12-04, 09:44 AM | Not sure if this goes here or somewhere else, but I'd be willing to moderate fights, if you need/want another moderator. I figure I've been playing for enough years to do that. Besides, I want to build up credits before making a gladiator. :) |
| Caterane02-12-04, 09:58 AM | 4 new players in one day??? Motherbast, are you spawning or what? Myrridin, in these times we have a shortage on fights to moderate. Why not posting a character and fight for a few weeks before you post a new LA+ one. |
| Moherajikuyx02-12-04, 10:19 AM | Welcome Myrridin! Thanks for gentle the offer, but I'd rather assign tactics to moderators who have a pc, it gives to the arena more garancies. I await your pc soon! :) |
| Jindl02-12-04, 10:41 AM | @Myrridin - 0 PC's, Mod 1 fight per week = 1 credit. 1 PC, Mod 1 fight per week = 1 credit. 1 PC, Mod 2 fights per week = 2 credits. 2 PC's, Mod 2 fights per week = 1 credits. So, if you mod 1 fight per week, you can only get one credit, whether you have 0 or 1 PC. So you might as well have a single PC running, and mod 1 or 2 fights a week to get 1 or 2 credits per week. @All the "MotherBast" spawn (ie. Newcomers :D ) - Welcome to the arena. Please read pg 1 of the Gladiators thread to learn/understand the rules (and hopefully limit the # of "newbie" questions.) Any additional questions can be directed to Caterane via PM. :heehee -Jindl |
| sshuit02-12-04, 11:08 AM | @Mo : I'm sure I don't know anything about what you are talking about ;) Don't make Voliana add you to her vendetta list! :smirk: Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Voliana, Lady of the Grey - :rofl: the Grey is a really famous bar in the Chueca suburb of Madrid! Sshuit I wonder if you knew this. It is a fact with quite some implications... Don't ask how I know... :behold: |
| Ethendril02-12-04, 11:08 AM | Any additional questions can be directed to Caterane via PM. :rofl: |
| Moherajikuyx02-12-04, 11:26 AM | Originally posted by sshuit @Mo : I'm sure I don't know anything about what you are talking about ;) Don't make Voliana add you to her vendetta list! :smirk: Yes mistress! :bow: |
| Arena Champion02-12-04, 11:45 AM | I just wanted to welcome all of the Newbies. May your characters die a quick and painful death! :king: |
| LLMadCow02-12-04, 12:00 PM | @sshuit - Hey bud. Cliodhna is fighting Roger. Please send your tactics to Motherbast, not me. I would forward the tactics, but that would require me opening them and I would see them. They say all is fair in love and war, and this is war, but that would be a little too underhanded for even me... - LLMadCow, just trying to be fair. |
| sshuit02-12-04, 12:19 PM | @ LL MadCow Uh... whoops! Maybe it was all part of my crafty plan? sshuit |
| Ethendril02-12-04, 12:22 PM | Anyone know where that standard tactics sheet is (I can't remember who made it)? I want to start using it. -Ethendril |
| Jindl02-12-04, 12:29 PM | Maybe LLMadCow would be so kind as to re-post the standard tactics sheet he came up with. Maybe Mo would be so kind as to make a link to it on the Gladiators page. Maybe ... -Jindl |
| Caterane02-12-04, 12:31 PM | @Arena Champion: No gladiator, no champion. :P |
| Jindl02-12-04, 12:32 PM | Originally posted by Caterane --> The one and only all-times Arena bard! <-- I suppose this means you need to post a bard character... :D |
| Caterane02-12-04, 12:42 PM | Gimme your phone number and I sing you a song instead :embarrass |
| Jindl02-12-04, 01:22 PM | Originally posted by Caterane Gimme your phone number and I sing you a song instead :embarrass 867-5309... Oh wait, that's Jenny's number. |
| Caterane02-12-04, 01:38 PM | As if you have something to do with woman :bounce: ...and I thought it is 555-Arena champion |
| Jindl02-12-04, 01:48 PM | Originally posted by Jindl 867-5309... Oh wait, that's Jenny's number. Famous 80's song. Originally posted by Caterane As if you have something to do with woman Only one for me. But she is a sweet one :D -Jindl |
| Ethendril02-12-04, 02:48 PM | @Mo: I sent you a PM requesting that I go back to only one fight this week (and future weeks), and I know there are people looking for credits still... So, does anyone want to take one of my fights (preferably the higher level fight [EDIT: Targ vs. Kiowen])? -Ethendril |
| JonahBlack02-12-04, 03:03 PM | @Market_Share: I emailed Grimlock's tactics to you. |
| Myrridin02-12-04, 03:20 PM | Originally posted by Ethendril @Mo: I sent you a PM requesting that I go back to only one fight this week (and future weeks), and I know there are people looking for credits still... So, does anyone want to take one of my fights (preferably the higher level fight)? -Ethendril I could take a fight from you Ethendril. Who's in it and when does it have to be posted? |
| Ethendril02-12-04, 03:28 PM | Originally posted by Myrridin I could take a fight from you Ethendril. Who's in it and when does it have to be posted? Thanks for offering... Typically, they start you off with a level two fight, so I think it would have to be one of the moderators who's been here for a while. If you want to start doing fights, just post that you're interested and the Powers That Be can set you up next week. -Ethendril |
| Myrridin02-12-04, 03:35 PM | I already posted that I'm interested in modding fights. I can wait, I just figured I'd offer if no one else wanted to. No worries about starting with low level fights. |
| Caterane02-12-04, 03:36 PM | @Myrridin: Not so quick, Myr. I appreciate your enthusiasm about moderating but you shouldn`t burst with the head through the wall. Let it begin slowly. Post a character (I suppose you already did), let him fight a week or two, watch the other fights to get examples ...examples on how a typical week is going on, then begin with moderating a single 2nd level fight. Unless your horroscope told you that aliens are going to steal you away you`re under no time pressure. |
| Myrridin02-12-04, 03:40 PM | Cat: No, it wasn't aliens.... :) See, it also helps that I'm incredibly bored at work, and have a lot of time to kill. |
| Caterane02-12-04, 03:49 PM | ...and one wonders where our economical problems are coming from :rolleyes: |
| Myrridin02-12-04, 04:36 PM | One works as computer tech support at an insurance company. When things are running smoothly, I'm not busy. When they go to crap, I barely have time to think about anything else. |
| Caterane02-12-04, 05:04 PM | Hehe, was just kidding :) Ok, Myrri; if I ever get a Jindl fight again I`ll pass it on to you, deal? |
| Druid Roxors02-12-04, 05:36 PM | Originally posted by Caterane Hehe, was just kidding :) Ok, Myrri; if I ever get a Jindl fight again I`ll pass it on to you, deal? Who is getting the best part of the deal? ;) |
| kattattack2202-12-04, 05:41 PM | Originally posted by Druid Roxors Who is getting the best part of the deal? ;) Most definiately Caterane. |
| Magagumo02-12-04, 05:43 PM | @JIndl... I'm too lazy to check on what creature I mistakenly typed I was fighting, so yes, I am definetely fighting a Storm Giant. As my one game was canceled, I should get them to you this evening. Personal Arena Announcement: If you ever want to replicate the wonderful fun of the "Morphling" in your D & D game, I highly recommend Pham's w/ 5 levels of Warshaper from the COmplete Warrior Guide. My players in my own arena had to tussle with three of these at once, and one even needed to survive the augmented bite of a Dragon turtle crit (12d6+22 :D).. Good times, anyways, back to stuff I go! *Looks at 8th lvl fights* Zorander's out for # of PCs, but two of LLMadCow's pcs are fighting in that tier, wacky and ironic :D |
| Arstimis02-12-04, 06:38 PM | Well...since i will ge gone the rest of the weekend i need to do my tactics now...but im not sure who to send it to. I guess I will send it to Ethendril, and could you please forward it to a new moderator if i get one? |
| Ethendril02-12-04, 06:52 PM | Well...since i will ge gone the rest of the weekend i need to do my tactics now...but im not sure who to send it to. Sure, I'll either run the fight or forward them. Actually, if KerlanRayne, Battousai2005, Mercy and Arstimis all get me their tactics by Friday morning, I will run and post all the fights then. If I don't have the tactics by then, I'll need to have someone take one of the fights because I won't have time this weekend. -Ethendril |
| Jindl02-12-04, 07:28 PM | Originally posted by Druid Roxors Who is getting the best part of the deal? ;) No comment. Also, tactics sent for Anna. Tactics received from Ony Akerr (kattattack22). Still waiting on Tactics from Bruno/Tony (Magagumo) and Laness (Tharkos). If either of you sends me tactics soon, I can run a fight tonight... -Jindl |
| Arstimis02-12-04, 07:40 PM | @Ethendril: Tactics were sent, if you dont end up modding the fight please forward them to the moderator Thanks. |
| Mercy02-12-04, 11:04 PM | Originally posted by Arstimis @Ethendril: Tactics were sent, if you dont end up modding the fight please forward them to the moderator Thanks. ditto for me. |
| Ethendril02-12-04, 11:29 PM | Tactics received for Targ & Kiowen. I'll be running the fight after all (thanks for getting me the tactics so fast!). I'll most likely run and post the fight tomorrow. -Ethendril |
| SnarkHunter02-12-04, 11:49 PM | Sent tactics for my one and only playing character this week [/grumble] Recieved tactics for Urig and Anna (Jindl you could just send em by E-mail...though a little redundancy never hurts. Unless its redundancy in a savage beating. But then I suppose its supposed to hurt then.) |
| Arena Champion02-13-04, 02:53 AM | Originally posted by Caterane @Arena Champion: No gladiator, no champion. :P Fair enough. Consider this a challenge met. Originally posted by Caterane --> The one and only all-times Arena bard! <-- And let's see this bard! |
| Caterane02-13-04, 04:31 AM | @Arena Champion: Nolan Kyler HUH? YOU ARE NOT JINDL????? SPOILER: Bruno vs Storm Giant . . . . . . . . I can vividly imagine that you have narrowed the names for the new giant down to Hugo, Franky, Michael, or Jonny. Mag, please please please give him a better name; Agammemnon is just fine. :) Well, it`s your giant. |
| Caterane02-13-04, 05:24 AM | Tactics sent for the Harvester! Tactics received from Palerider, Ilene, and Johan (*shakesfist*). @Mag: Bruno casts Dimension Door, and suddenly is falling from the ceiling where with but a word, he begins Feather Falling towards the ground (falls 60 feet). I see you liked the Ebelin evasion. Yeah, that`s how we should call it from now on. But I have an even better and perhaps the funniest maneuver in the upcomming Harvester fight. |
| Jindl02-13-04, 08:28 AM | Re: Dimenision Door + Feather Fall = Ebelin's Evasioin This tactic is truly questionable. I allowed it in the fight, but I'm not sure if it's legal. Dimension door says, "You may take no other actions until your next turn." Even though feather fall is a free action, it's still an action. Personally, I think that you probably couldn't use feather fall until your next turn, which means you would fall the 150 feet to the arena floor, taking 15d6 of damage. Of course, Dimension Door + Ring of Feather Falling would be an acceptable manuever. -Jindl |
| Magagumo02-13-04, 09:05 AM | @Cat Mickey is a fine name.. of course, I' stealing these all from the movie, "Snatch" @ Jindl Thank you for the running the fight, but two comments: 1. My int is actually 28, I crafted a +6 headband but forgot to record that in my Int score, sorry about that, that was my fault. 2. According to Empower Spell, you roll the damage, numbers, whatever, then you multiply them by 1.5, so the bonus strength penalty, and the bonus temp hp from caster level are empowered (They give a 1d4+1 Magic Missile as the example, which is then multiplied... just for your own future benefit.) Obviously, I still won, but this is just one of those things that everyone should have straight. Yea.. the fact that he leviated straight up and hit me was bound to happen, what witht he fact that i was 55' feet away.. but that Strength penalty certainly could have saved me some pain :D. Glad to see I can survive a Fort save or die nonetheless, and that my Concentration checks work ;) |
| Jindl02-13-04, 09:25 AM | @Mag- I ran the empower correctly. Check the FAQ/Sage rulings. +1/level effects are not multiplied by empower. The magic missile spell (1d4+1) is not a +1/level effect, so it has it's full value multiplied. BTW: You didn't memorize your bonus spells from the 28 Int. That's why I assumed you had simply miss added the score. Actually, most of the die rolls went against you (rolled minimun on both false life's, natural 1 on the call lightning save, etc), so it was a lot closer match than it should have been. Better be careful not to lose him in a PvP fight, because without Tony to help, you may not be able to beat him next time. -Jindl |
| Tharkos02-13-04, 10:04 AM | Originally posted by Jindl Re: Dimenision Door + Feather Fall = Ebelin's Evasioin This tactic is truly questionable. I allowed it in the fight, but I'm not sure if it's legal. Dimension door says, "You may take no other actions until your next turn." Even though feather fall is a free action, it's still an action. Personally, I think that you probably couldn't use feather fall until your next turn, which means you would fall the 150 feet to the arena floor, taking 15d6 of damage. Of course, Dimension Door + Ring of Feather Falling would be an acceptable manuever. -Jindl I would fully support the "not able to do anything until next turn" stance because that is how I would interpret the meaning of the spell description. It is irrelevant how you get the effect of Dimension Door as well because the spell also mentions that this restriction is for anyone "using" the spell, so an intelligent item "casting" the effect would still make the wielder / wearer dizzy until his next turn. Another question is: If someone cant take an action after a Dimension Door is it the same as flat-footed (probably not) or enough to qualify for sneak attacks ? |
| Jindl02-13-04, 10:36 AM | Originally posted by Tharkos I would fully support the "not able to do anything until next turn" stance because that is how I would interpret the meaning of the spell description. It is irrelevant how you get the effect of Dimension Door as well because the spell also mentions that this restriction is for anyone "using" the spell, so an intelligent item "casting" the effect would still make the wielder / wearer dizzy until his next turn. Another question is: If someone cant take an action after a Dimension Door is it the same as flat-footed (probably not) or enough to qualify for sneak attacks ? Yeah, it doesn't matter how the dimension door effect is acheived, you still cannot take any actions until your next turn. But a ring of featherfalling operates automatically (not needing an action, it would work even if the wearer is asleep), so it would still make the tactic usable. Nothing about the spell says or implies that you lose your Dex bonus. It's more like being "dazed" than being "stunned", so I would assume you keep your Dex and you are not flat-footed, though you would not be able to take AoO's (see the "no actions" thing.) -Jindl |
| SnarkHunter02-13-04, 11:12 AM | The way I ran it during its premier (in the Rito Ebelin fight, a particuarly brutal beating if I've ever seen one) I had Ebelin cast Featherfall Beforethe dimension door. Its still as a free action so I find it an easy way to get round (the eintierly appropriate) wording of dimension door. |
| Caterane02-13-04, 11:56 AM | Wait, that`s Bruno`s splash evasion". If you read my tactic I said cast feather fall BEFORE Dimension door. That`s what Ebelin did. Besides: if you fall 150ft you are still at 50ft altitude and get no damage. The fall itself is harmless. |
| Magagumo02-13-04, 01:19 PM | @ Jindl- I just checked the FAQs, and couldn't find the refernece about Empower Spell not effecting caster level based modifiers. Mind giving us the link? :) Re: Feather Fall & Dimension Door, well, I suppose nice Mods would allow the spells to have been cast in reverse order ;) Thx for not splashing Bruno, Jindl. Re: Mickey- I didn't realize we were going to have to recapture or defeat our cohorts if they were slain.. I know it's never come up, but I thought we were just permitted to pay for them again (having proved that we had beaten them before). After all, we do similar things w/ familars and sundered items (and Permenancy Spells that have been dispelled). I just assumed that the same courtesy would be applied to the necromancers :) Also, that scythe needs to get a name now.. it completely absorbed a lightning blast w/o getting destroyed on me :) Oh, I would have allowed the Storm Giant to create a terrible lightning storm w/ control weather, Jindl, as that lasts many hours & would have made his Call Lightning all the more painful *whistles innocently* |
| Jindl02-13-04, 02:37 PM | @Mag - I'll try to find the ruling on that empower thing. I know I have seen/read it in the official FAQ somewhere. Maybe it was in the Errata? I'll let you know. Re: Feather Fall + Dimension door - "Duration: Until landing or 1 round/level" means that the feather fall spell ends as soon as you are no longer falling. That means that if you cast it while standing on the ground, it ends instantly. So casting it before the Dimension door will not work. @Cat - Double check the height of the arena. Its only 150 ft high. Re: Slain Allies - No slain allies are automatically revived at this time. I suggested a vote on this (twice already) but it has yet to be polled. Even if slain allies were revived, the nature of the Animate Dead spell says that the destroyed skeleton/zombie corpse is not suitable for re-animation. So, even if cohorts/etc were revived for free, you would still need to find a new corpse for your skeletal allies. Consider it the drawback to having what is easily the most powerful ally in the arena. Re: Control Weather - Um, the Storm Giant did cast control weather as a prebuff, making a suitably stormy condition so that his Call Lightning would do 3d10 instead of the normal 3d6... As for a name of the Scythe - how about the weapon that Bruno "Never Uses Anymore Except as a Lightning Rod." Or simply "NUAEL". Okay, so I'm no good at acronyms... -Jindl |
| Magagumo02-13-04, 03:17 PM | @ Jindl- SO he did! I read the fight in approx. 2 min before rushing off to work, so I'm bound to miss things :D. Bravo good sir/miss, I always respect when a Mod does his best to destroy an uppity necromancer :D. Just let me know about that Empower thing as soon as you can.. I've just never heard of that before. For example, the feat reads, "cures half as many hit points". Well, if one has a Cure Mod for 2d8+10 and you are only healing 3d8+10 w/ Empower, that's nowhere near half again as many hp. (3d8+10 = 23 w/ avg. rolls vs. 2d8+10 x1.5= 28 hp). I know Heal and Harm are unaffected... Btw, I just learned that spells inflict massive damage rules now, that's a frightening prospect w/ Heal and Harm *shudder* so I wanted to bring up the FAQs suggestion that perhaps the Harm spell should not incur this rule? We are getting close to Harm-users (i.e. our 13th level buff cleric)... So the scythe survived 3d10 lightning.. it will become Storm Reaver now! (Cheesy, but somehow appropriate) Re: Feather Fall, so is that a completely illegitimate tactic w/o the ring then? |
| SnarkHunter02-13-04, 03:31 PM | @Jindle: Hmm, here I thought, 'until landing' meant that if the subject wasn't falling-then he hasn't landed, then the spell doesn't go off until the duration expires or until he starts falling (and then lands). |
| Ethendril02-13-04, 03:43 PM | I have posted Kiowen vs. Targ. I am ready to fix the fight if there are any errors (could someone please review how I did the handle animal stuff?). If there are errors, please consider this a draft. -Ethendril |
| ^Rayne^02-13-04, 04:16 PM | Received Tactics for Silencius & Felix! I will be running the fight soon and posting it very soon (today or tomorrow) since I won't be around from Sunday through next week Friday. Also because I won't be around next week my two PC's will not be fighting or challenging opponents next week and I won't be running any fights next week. I will be away from a computer for a week and won't be able to run or challenge any fights during this time period. I will be back in action for the following week though and will update my PC's when I get back from my vacation. ;) Rayne |
| Ethendril02-13-04, 04:35 PM | @Market Share: Tactics sent for Kiri'endelas. -Ethendril EDIT: I could use some help with my level 4 Grym vs. Sintius fight. I had previously requested just one fight his week (which I have already run), but I have plans with my family for the holiday (President's Day in the States), and will not be able to run this fight. If someone could take this fight from me, I have the tactics for both of them already, and will forward it to you. I would appreciate the help if someone can run one more fight. |
| ^Rayne^02-13-04, 05:37 PM | @SnarkHunter, I have sent you Aiki Auk's tactics. Have fun running the fight. Hopefully you'll have it up before Sunday so I can read the match before I leave for vacation. Hint hint hint... ;) Thanks for running the match |
| ^Rayne^02-13-04, 05:48 PM | @Hatzinger, Vryk's tactics have been sent! (Darn double posts... Since it happened though I used it to announce that Vryk's tactics have been sent as well!) |
| Jindl02-13-04, 06:04 PM | Originally posted by Ethendril I could use some help with my level 4 Grym vs. Sintius fight. I had previously requested just one fight his week (which I have already run), but I have plans with my family for the holiday (President's Day in the States), and will not be able to run this fight. If someone could take this fight from me, I have the tactics for both of them already, and will forward it to you. I would appreciate the help if someone can run one more fight. Send it here, I'll do it tonight. Heh, I can finally get rid of that last "-" from the Ghost. -Jindl Also, I am still waiting on Tactics from Tharkos :( |
| Jindl02-13-04, 06:18 PM | Originally posted by Ethendril I have posted Kiowen vs. Targ. I am ready to fix the fight if there are any errors (could someone please review how I did the handle animal stuff?). If there are errors, please consider this a draft. -Ethendril Well, there are some errors, which hopefully you can take the time to fix: 1. Giant Eagles and Handle Animal- Giant Eagles are Intelligent Magical Beasts which speak Common and Auran. Handle Animal checks are not required to tell them to attack. Simply look at it and say, "Please attack him", and since it speaks Common it will do so. The purpose of the Handle Animal training is for the eagle to be suitable for riding (and the use of mounted combat feats). But since Kiowen doesn't ride the eagle, handle animal becomes unnecessary. As a result, Swifter should have followed Kiowen's spoken directions throughout the fight. Directing the eagle with spoken instructions is a free action. 2. Heavy Crossbows - A Heavy crossbow requires a full-round action that draws and AoO to reload. Without the rapid reload feat, you cannot reload and fire a heavy crossbow in the same round. So, Kiowen was getting way too many shots with that crossbow. 3. Eagles fly at average manueverability, which means they must spend a move action to travel at least 40 feet (in the horizontal dimensions) each round, or fall. So, Swifter would likely make use of his flyby attack, rather than end his move next to the flying wizard. This of course, makes it difficult to get an AoO on the wizard, since Targ will begin his turn in an unthreatened space. Make sure Swifter follows the rules of his manueverability class. Based on #1, you'll probably need to restart the fight immediately after initiative. Good luck! -Jindl |
| MotherBast02-13-04, 07:26 PM | Hey everybody. Sorry I haven't been here to send tactics, but I work at a prison and 2 inmates escaped off of Detail at my prison. I had to go out and begin a search and paremitar team. I have been at work for the last 42 hours, and just now got home. I don't have to go back tomarrow, so I would ask that the mods for my fights please allow me a little leaniency and let me send tactics tomarrow. Right now I really really need some sleep. On a good note, I single handedly caught one of the escapies. At the time, we haden't even really set up the parimater yet, it was only an hour after he had escaped, and I was walking down a dirt road, where his jacket was found, just looking for tracks. The hunt haden't even really begun yet, and I didn't have a weapon or even a pair of cuffs on me. By shear luck, I walk up one of the inmates. He had his head down, walking down the road. I snuck up to him, only 15 feet away before he saw me. I had a jacket on, so I guess he couldn't tell I didn't have a weapon, so he just gave up. Put his hands together and stood there. Of course, I couldn't try to cuff him or he would know I didn't have any gear, so I just told him not to move and called for backup. My Sarget showed up 45 seconds later and we took him down and cuffed him up. He ratted out his buddy, so we have had the dogs tracking him for 2 days and now the fugitave squad is on his tail, so we will have him back in custody soon. I'm like a hero at work now. No one else working at my prison has ever caught an escape inmate before. now I must sleep off two days worth of tracking/ridding in van. |
| Mercy02-13-04, 08:01 PM | Originally posted by Ethendril I have posted Kiowen vs. Targ. I am ready to fix the fight if there are any errors (could someone please review how I did the handle animal stuff?). If there are errors, please consider this a draft. -Ethendril @Ethendril - Targ memorized 4 Melf's Acid Arrow spells. 2 at 2nd level and 2 at 3rd level. Not surprising I like the result of the fight, but I don't mind if you want to rerun it. |
| Ethendril02-13-04, 08:14 PM | @Jindl: Thanks for running the fight for me. I've forwarded the tactics to you. Further, thanks for the help with my problems in my fight. This is becoming a habit, I guess. I'm going to rework the Targ/Kiowen fight from round 1 on, hopefully tonight. The only good thing is that I'm learning, and hopefully won't repeat the same mistakes twice. -Ethendril |
| ^Rayne^02-13-04, 08:46 PM | MotherBast, sounds like you won your bluff check verses the escape prisoner! ;) Good work though and get some sleep. My PC will be awaiting his Dra'kel match when you get up again. Rayne |
| Magagumo02-13-04, 10:38 PM | Take all the time you need MB, I personally am not running Bilo v. Brackin till Sunday, just try to have it to me by noon. Take a break till then dude, sounds like you deserve it :) |
| Jindl02-13-04, 11:24 PM | Grym Mordib, KerlanRayne vs. Sintius, Battousai2005 is posted. "Druid vs Orc. Classic battle of the dark woods, now brought to light in the Arena for your amusement. Whose Nature will prove to be more savage? Find out today, only 25 pieces of gold per ticket." -Jindl |
| LLMadCow02-13-04, 11:24 PM | I have a serious question regarding some of what I have observed here on the boards. I am confused about something and I want to know exactly how it works. There are spells with Variable damage. I will use the spell Fireball for the remainder of my example... Fireball Evocation [Fire] Level: Sor/Wiz 3 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 Standard Action Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft. / level) Area: 20-ft.-radius-spread Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: Reflex half Spell Resistance: Yes A fireball spell is an explosion of flame that detonates with a low roar and deals 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 10d6) to every creature within the area. Blah, blah, blah. ^----Now, here is what I am looking at. ----^ 1d6 ... per caster level ... Now, I have seen people discuss a lot of variables, but as a Wizard, this spell initially does 5d6 damage, right? Then when I am at 10th level, it is doing 10d6, right? Barring metamagic feats, it ALWAYS takes up a level 3 spell slot, right? I see people making references that for a spell to do greater damage, that it must be cast in a higher level slot, but I do not believe that this is the case. If that were so, then a wizard casting fireball would never cast a fireball worth 6, 8 or 10d6 since the spell slots never match up to those. I understand the issue of Scrolls and the caster level and cost. I get it. I understand that Caster Level has no real impact on the price of a scroll. I have poured over the books, and I can find no info in the price of scrolls, other than This scroll would, however, be more costly to scribe. It appears that the formula is: {25 gp + [50gp x (Spell Level - 1)]} * Spell Level = Cost Cost does not include factors such as XP required or Material Components. This formula is pretty accurate. We know it does not use Caster Level since the prices are the same for Wizards and Sorcers. Does all of this make sense? |
| Jindl02-13-04, 11:31 PM | Originally posted by LLMadCow Does all of this make sense? Um ... no? I don't understand your question, exactly. A fireball without metamagic feats is always a 3rd level spell. The caster level determines its damage and range, but it is still 3rd level. If scribed into a scroll, the caster level has a direct impact on the cost (see Scribe Scroll feat. Its market price is Caster Level x Spell Level x 25 gp). So a Caster Level 5 Scroll: Fireball will cost 375 gp. A Caster Level 10 Scroll: Fireball will cost 750 gp. Both scrolls will have the same Reflex Save (10 +3 spell level +1 Int = 14), though the Caster Level 10 Scroll does double the base damage. A sorceror or wizard with sufficient caster levels, can use the scroll. Even if the sorceror is not high enough level to actually cast the spell (such as a Sorceror 5 casting a Caster Level 5 Scroll: Fireball). It doesn't matter if the class can cast the spell yet, as long as the caster level requirement is met. This explains how 3rd level druids can use Scrolls: Cure Moderate Wounds (Caster Level 3) even though Cure Moderate Wounds is a 3rd level spell on the druid list. The pricing for scrolls in the DMG (and in the arena) assumes the scroll was made by wizards/clerics if it appears on their spell lists, else it is made by whatever class features the spell (such as druids for flame blade, or paladins for bless weapon.) Is this what you're confused about? -Jindl |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-13-04, 11:52 PM | Dang, i hate critiquing a fight after Jindl critiques it. He usually gets all points. But this time he FORGOT ONE!! :) @Ethendril: When initiative is tied, it no longer goes to the higher dex, it goes to the highest initiative modifier. (which this case still turned out to be Targ) "One to nothing, i WIN!" ToK: 1, jindl: 0 Another note on companions and monster fights. Here's what i see as a 'major' problem. An intelligent creatures CR also accounts for it's treasure. For future's sake, i would reccomend all mods to randomly roll up it's treasure hoarde (shouldn't take more than 60 seconds if you're quick on the dice) and have that creature use what's appropriate to destroy their target. For example if that Storm Giant had rolled a mantle of spell resistance, winged boots, cube of force etc... or something similar, it would be a much different outcome (possibly). I think creatures with a treasure listing should have it included with it and those that are suitable for use (determined by the mod) could (should) be put to use. But that's just me. Dunno if i'm alone in this thought. Tellish. |
| sshuit02-14-04, 12:23 AM | Originally posted by LLMadCow Now, I have seen people discuss a lot of variables, but as a Wizard, this spell initially does 5d6 damage, right? Right. CL 5 x 1d6/caster level = 5d6. Then when I am at 10th level, it is doing 10d6, right? Right. Assuming you mean Wiz level 10 or Sorc level 10 and not Wiz 5/Ftr 5 or something weird. Barring metamagic feats, it ALWAYS takes up a level 3 spell slot, right? Right. Where's the confusion coming from? |
| Ethendril02-14-04, 12:48 AM | Targ vs. Kiowen is modified (started over at round 1) and posted again. I hope my old mistakes are fixed and that I don't have new ones. Thanks to everyone for the feedback and help. Did anyone else make weekly mistakes when they first started, or am I just hopeless [prepares for bottom feeders who feel Ethendril set himself up with this one]? Anyway, the fight was very close again. -Ethendril |
| Market_Share02-14-04, 01:23 AM | done and posted. Again, more comical than serious. Life's too funny to be serious. Please let me know if you see any mistakes. (that was supposed to be funny. ehhe. When you read it you'll know why. HAHHAHAHAHA) SPIKE |
| Druid Roxors02-14-04, 01:37 AM | Match Spoiler * * * * * @ Jindl Just a little mistake on the match you just posted. 3.5 SRD A creature that flies can make dive attacks. A dive attack works just like a charge, but the diving creature must move a minimum of 30 feet and descend at least 10 feet. It can make only claw or talon attacks, but these deal double damage. A creature can use the run action while flying, provided it flies in a straight line. The giant eagle should have done 22 damage not 11. This could have called for a change in tactics from the Orc. Grym Should have won the fight, Is there anything im missing from this info? |
| Jindl02-14-04, 01:48 AM | Originally posted by Druid Roxors @ Jindl Just a little mistake on the match you just posted. quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3.5 SRD A creature that flies can make dive attacks. A dive attack works just like a charge, but the diving creature must move a minimum of 30 feet and descend at least 10 feet. It can make only claw or talon attacks, but these deal double damage. A creature can use the run action while flying, provided it flies in a straight line. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The giant eagle should have done 22 damage not 11. This could have called for a change in tactics from the Orc. Grym Should have won the fight, Is there anything im missing from this info? Actually, if the Eagle had performed a "dive attack" which is the same as a charge, then it would have never even hit Grym. The double damage from the Halberd set to receive the charge would have killed it before its attack occured (even with minimun damage). I had the eagle perform a flyby attack, not a charge. The reason for this is that Sintius did not want his Eagle involved in melee with the orc. Thus hit-and-run tactics were called for, ie. flyby attack. Had the Eagle performed a "dive / charge" then it would have ended its move next to Grym. Thus, the flyby attack is what was preferred. Funny thing is, Grym actually took more damage because the Eagle didn't charge. -Jindl PS: Please put a "Spoiler Warning" at the top of your post, if you want to discuss a fight that everyone may not have read yet. Thanks. |
| Druid Roxors02-14-04, 02:33 AM | Originally posted by Jindl Actually, if the Eagle had performed a "dive attack" which is the same as a charge, then it would have never even hit Grym. The double damage from the Halberd set to receive the charge would have killed it before its attack occured (even with minimun damage). I had the eagle perform a flyby attack, not a charge. The reason for this is that Sintius did not want his Eagle involved in melee with the orc. Thus hit-and-run tactics were called for, ie. flyby attack. Had the Eagle performed a "dive / charge" then it would have ended its move next to Grym. Thus, the flyby attack is what was preferred. Funny thing is, Grym actually took more damage because the Eagle didn't charge. -Jindl Ah, I see your logic. I had my mind set that the eagle had recieved double damage already. Grym should have used the bird as a distraction while both were on attack range, that way a readied action would be a waste. Sorry about that |
| sshuit02-14-04, 10:29 AM | @marketshare LOL. Thx for the fight there buddeh' Loads of laughs, right up until the part where I got gutted. *ouch* :b: |
| Bishop the Bardican02-14-04, 10:45 AM | I have emailed the tactics for my character, but there is still a wait listed to my name on the the pairings. Could this be caused by something other than the mod not receiving my email? Specifics: Character:Urig the Usurper Mod:SnarkHunter |
| SnarkHunter02-14-04, 10:50 AM | Don't worry about it Bishop, you'll have wait listed next to your character until I actually finish the fight. I have recieved yours and Raynes tactics and I'm planning on starting the fight soon. |
| Battousai200502-14-04, 11:09 AM | @Roxors: My tactics were to use flyby attacks. Melee combat+half orc=death. For all the good it did me... @Jindl: One question on my fight. I specified that if i lost half my hp that i should use a healing spell of some kind. Even though the rest of my tactics were screwed, that should still have applied. Defensive casting would have prevented that ugly attack of op easily enough. -The Battousai |
| Jindl02-14-04, 11:14 AM | Originally posted by Battousai2005 @Jindl: One question on my fight. I specified that if i lost half my hp that i should use a healing spell of some kind. Even though the rest of my tactics were screwed, that should still have applied. Defensive casting would have prevented that ugly attack of op easily enough. -The Battousai In rounds 5 and 6 you cast both of your cure light wounds spells. Later in the fight, it seemed more intelligent to press the attack with your flame blade, than to cast a cure minor wounds, when the orc was easily hitting you for 8+ damage each round. I made some notes on your character sheet / tactics in RED. Please look over them. -Jindl |
| Magagumo02-14-04, 11:30 AM | @ToK Actually, monsters only very rarely are supposed to use magic items, as they cant have them ID... a monster is not supposed to use its treasure vs. the party, thats why intelligent monsters are either NPCs (hich clearly get more cash for the strict purpose of havng magic items to use) and why creatures like giants are preequipped with items (sword, bow, armor). A good rule from tthe Dragonomicon was that a creature w/ a high Spellcraft could ID potions for free, and that many creatures will wear rings, amulets, etc, but rem that they can't cast identify on them. So keep in mind, treasure is not figured into standard CR, and you don't want Bruno getting more stuff when we are attemtping to regulate the fights to reflect standard conditions for all combatants. |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-14-04, 11:38 AM | @Mag: True, but you woulnd't get his stuff if you beat him just like we don't get to loot gladiators we kill. :D Giving an intelligent creature's treasure hoard and equipping it with stuff it can wear or use isn't stretching it at all. I mean, there are no fighter-type characters here in the arena with spellcraft or means of identifying stuff, yet we all walk around with magic galore. I'm sure the same analogy would apply. In a storm giant civilization, i'm sure there are sorcerers etc...that could have i/d stuff for Ag. I'm just saying it reflects closer to what you would actually encounter. I would shudder if someone fought a dragon without any magic items available to it. That would be just plain wrong, and i can imagine it will be happening soon. Tellish |
| LLMadCow02-14-04, 12:16 PM | @Mustadio[MoF]: I HAVE NO TACTICS FROM YOU! I will wait and give you some more time, but I would have run it this morning. I give you until tonight and then use default tactics. If none are listed default is: You give up. Sorry for being harsh, but if you need extra time just e-mail and ask for it..... |
| Jindl02-14-04, 02:11 PM | Ony vs Laness is posted. I call the fight, "Moon Over Ony." Read it to find out why :smirk: -Jindl |
| Moherajikuyx02-14-04, 02:51 PM | So shall we vote upon the "repair familiars for free"? If no one is against that we may as well put it in the rules directly. Jindl's correct about the undead though. |
| JonahBlack02-14-04, 02:57 PM | Quick levelling question: Can you take a feat, and it's prerequisite feat at the same time. That is, could one take power attack and Improved sunder at the same level, or dodge and mobility? I know that you can take a feat at the level you reach the prerequisite base attack, level, or ability score, but I'm not sure with feats. |
| Jindl02-14-04, 03:09 PM | @Mo - I agree with using the True Ressurection on any slain allies (that were alive to start with), but there would still be the XP loss for the death of a familiar (which manifests as 5gp per Xp lost). @Jonah - Yes, you can take power attack and improved sunder at the same level (with a general feat and a figher bonus feat, for example). -Jindl |
| Bishop the Bardican02-14-04, 03:48 PM | Can items be purchased in stages? To avoid confusion I will give an example. Could I buy a masterwork long sword and then a level or two later pay to have it enchanted as a +1 long sword? Does the enchantment have to occur when the item is forged? Can it come later? |
| Jindl02-14-04, 03:51 PM | Originally posted by Bishop the Bardican Can items be purchased in stages? To avoid confusion I will give an example. Could I buy a masterwork long sword and then a level or two later pay to have it enchanted as a +1 long sword? Does the enchantment have to occur when the item is forged? Can it come later? Items can be upgraded within the rules. So yes, you can buy it masterwork and then later have it enchanted. @Mo - Since this is a popular question among new arrivals (in the past and now), perhaps we should mention the ability to "upgrade" equipment somewhere in the Arena Rules. -Jindl @Mo - Also, it seems that an error occurred the last time you updated the roster. A lot of the new level 2's are listed in the level 3 rank. |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-14-04, 04:57 PM | Is there online roller down for anyone else? I haven't been able to access it for some time now and i want to start running Iron vs Harvester. Can someone dbl check for me? http://krisinchico.brinkster.net/rolldata.asp Tellish **EDIT** it's working again. phew! ***EDIT*** and down it goes again. :( |
| kattattack2202-14-04, 04:58 PM | Originally posted by Jindl Ony vs Laness is posted. I call the fight, "Moon Over Ony." Read it to find out why :smirk: -Jindl hehe, I enjoyed the fight immensely. A lot closer than I expected. Its too bad about what happened at the end, but awesome job Jindl. @Thrakos - Good fight, Laness is a fierce competitor. |
| Hatzinger02-14-04, 06:59 PM | The Vryk vs. Dra'kel fight is posted. Vryk is a Kobold Ftr1/Sor1 with a spiked chain and Dra'kel is a human Drd1/Mnk1 with augmented summoning and a wolf. As this is my first moderation, please don´t hesitate to send me comments or spotted errors. SPOILER!!! fight result is posted in white color. Vryk lost due to some bad rolls. Would else have been quite an interesting (and much longer) fight. |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-14-04, 07:03 PM | Summons are full-round castings. Otherwise looks good and you might wanna put a spoiler alert on your title like some others do. I happen to be waiting for the online roller to get back up and running and saw the fight posted before reading this, others may not be so fortunate. Tellish |
| Hatzinger02-14-04, 07:27 PM | @Tellish: what is the usual procedure in such a situation? should i recalculate the fight (keeping the rolled numbers) or should i just let it be like it is? |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-14-04, 07:30 PM | i'd leave it as it is. Didn't impact the fight much. Glaring errors are up to the moderator and player consent. You may (but are not forced to) continue from the point of the error. In this case, with the rolls, i don't think anything changes. Tellish |
| Alterlat02-14-04, 07:55 PM | @ Moh & LLMadCow: I notice that Mustadio[MoF]'s character is marked ready for the 18/2. I don't think he was expecting to get paired this week. @ Market_Share: Voliana vs. Grimlock was pretty funny. I really liked the improvisation in the fight. |
| KerlanRayne02-14-04, 08:53 PM | Originally posted by Hatzinger [I didn´t understand the 2/2 thing there. i´m more comfortable with the 0,5 rank system. You don´t need to split the calculation up between your Ftr and Sor levels; once you have a class-skill from any class, it keeps being a class skill for any other classes.] Actually this is wrong. Your max ranks changes, but it's still a cross class skil and will cost 2 points per rank. KerlanRayne |
| Hatzinger02-15-04, 05:14 AM | @Kerlane could you point to the place in the rules where it says that? |
| ^Rayne^02-15-04, 05:20 AM | Hi Gang, I've got a problem... I just spent the entire day helping my best friend move and I'm leaving town and my machine for a week in about 7hours (I have to get some sleep!) I've just spent the last couple hours trying to get through the Felix vs. Silencius battle but it is just not going to be done in the next couple hours. Is there some way I can't forward all the tactics to another DM for this week and pass along what little work I've done so far for them to take over? I feel awful and I realize I will be in the hole one battle (which I will make up when I return) and thus one credit, but I just don't have to time to run this before I go. I tried to get this done sooner but my time has been packed since I got the tactics from my players and I haven't had a second to get this done. Is there a DM who can take my work and continue the fight? Again, I want to tell everyone I am very very sorry, I just know right now I won't be able to do this fight any justice or be able to check every little rule and run it fairly in the very small time I have left. If there is a DM around and who can run this please let me know so I can send everything to you very soon. Unfortunately I held off because I thought I would be able to do this by some miracle and obviously I'm just not going to get through it all in the time I have left. Thanks and again let me tell everyone I'm very sorry, especially to Tellish and Kaigan. I promise I will make up for this in the future and write a great battle for each of you in the near future to make up for this. Rayne |
| Caterane02-15-04, 06:32 AM | Hi all, what a week! I am imprisoned in Detail and it was cool there but they replaced my broadband internet connection with an 28k modem so I decided to flee. Unfortunately I got caught by Shrek - at least he looked like him - and so I`m back again. Anyway, Rayne asked me to run his fight and I agreed. Won`t be much story though because I`m busy with my own two fights, featuring both bold Marketshare`s characters. ...cleaving Caterane`s skull in two Long live Irlina! |
| ^Rayne^02-15-04, 06:34 AM | Caterane thanks sooo much! Your help is very much appreciated. Everything should be in your email. See everyone in a week. Thanks again for everything Caterane, I owe you big! Rayne |
| Market_Share02-15-04, 07:24 AM | @Cat. uh "Gulp!" your not going to hold that against me are you since you're running both my fights? hehe. Honest it wasn't me, it was Grimlock. SPIKE |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-15-04, 07:26 AM | If i were him i would. :D Tellish |
| Rosella02-15-04, 09:33 AM | @ Caterane; I made a mistake of changing the spells wrongly; I wanted to take magic missiles out for true strike, and keep shield, I mistakingly did it the other way around. I can imagine that you don't want to change the fight for it, but that's why I mentioned the shield and not the magic missiles. I'll correct it this week, you can check my older builds in the previous fights (which i have linked at the bottom of sheet). Maybe you could run the fight from that moment that I wanted to cast the shield? ::::beg:::: |
| Caterane02-15-04, 09:41 AM | Ilene McPherson vs Pale-Rider (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2579324#post2579324) FOR MATURE AUDIENCE ONLY!! |
| barrel_master02-15-04, 10:30 AM | Originally posted by MotherBast On a good note, I single handedly caught one of the escapies. At the time, we haden't even really set up the parimater yet, it was only an hour after he had escaped, and I was walking down a dirt road, where his jacket was found, just looking for tracks. The hunt haden't even really begun yet, and I didn't have a weapon or even a pair of cuffs on me. By shear luck, I walk up one of the inmates. He had his head down, walking down the road. I snuck up to him, only 15 feet away before he saw me. I had a jacket on, so I guess he couldn't tell I didn't have a weapon, so he just gave up. Put his hands together and stood there. Of course, I couldn't try to cuff him or he would know I didn't have any gear, so I just told him not to move and called for backup. My Sarget showed up 45 seconds later and we took him down and cuffed him up. He ratted out his buddy, so we have had the dogs tracking him for 2 days and now the fugitave squad is on his tail, so we will have him back in custody soon. I'm like a hero at work now. No one else working at my prison has ever caught an escape inmate before. now I must sleep off two days worth of tracking/ridding in van. Wicked! |
| Battousai200502-15-04, 11:32 AM | Id like to note something. I know Mustadio, the maker of Arty, in the real world. He made his fighter the day just before the pairings(something along the line of a few hours.) He didn't want to fight in this weeks matchings. Thats why it says "Ready for 18/2." Thats the date he wanted to first fight on!!! -The Battousai |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-15-04, 03:10 PM | Yay, i'm first to comment on the Cat-fight. (or is that cat-ran fight?) 1. 15,24 is a pillar 2. You can take full cover behind the 5x5. It says so in the arena description. 3. A double move, if you're only 60' up, is 180' (flying down at 120' and another move for 60' = 180'. I think that's why he said 180', because he was expecting to be 60' up. LOL. So everything he said would have been legal, minus (-20,-19) being a rock of course. Otherwise, it's a go. Dang, tough to find errors in Cat's fights. So few and far between. @Batous: Even IF he lost, it's no real loss, just change a vowel or syllable of his name and he's back to 0-0 win/loss, without any item usage whatsoever. Tellish |
| Rosella02-15-04, 05:41 PM | ehm Caterane, I do prefer the censured version of that story, I can't remember that it looked like this during the afternoon, and you might've changed it after my initial reading, but that was NOT the change I was proposing... |
| Caterane02-15-04, 05:51 PM | @Rosella: Do you mean the epilogue (the story) or the fact that you still have no shield but magic missile listed? If you think the story is too strong in action I will of course change it but if you are not satisfied with the not-existing shield spell: as I already told you there was no shield listed on your sheet, neither as scroll nor as known spell, and Market counted on you not having it. Sorry Rosella :( |
| Mercy02-15-04, 06:22 PM | Originally posted by Jindl @Mo - I agree with using the True Ressurection on any slain allies (that were alive to start with), but there would still be the XP loss for the death of a familiar (which manifests as 5gp per Xp lost). -Jindl I agree with Jindl. 5gp per Xp lost should be implemented. Also, I'm not opposed to only charging for the minimum Xp lost if a Mod forgets to roll the Fortitude save. Also, if the fight ends before the familiar reaches -10 hp then familiar did not die. |
| Rosella02-15-04, 07:15 PM | @ Caterane - it's purely content, I'm fine with the result, it's fair and square. after all, it was my own mistake. :) |
| sshuit02-15-04, 09:43 PM | Beer Battle Beatdown! Go read it now! |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-15-04, 10:14 PM | funny read Sshuit. Dang online roller is up and down like a frickin' yo-yo, severly prolonging the Iron/Harvester fight. Soon, though. Soon, almost done. Then of course, there's the double checking and story to go with it. But that's the easy part. The 18 gazillion dice rolls each round is the real killer. Tellish |
| SnarkHunter02-16-04, 12:45 AM | Old man fight! Read about the adventures of nearly crippled Urig and Half blind Aiki Auk here! (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2585537#post2585537) Eh? :D. |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-16-04, 01:08 AM | Iron vs Harvester the re-match is DONE! But i'm actually afraid to post it. LOL. I'm gonna print it out first and do some story work. If it was a slaughter, i'd post it. But it came down to 1 hp difference between winning/losing. Assuming i haven't made any grievious errors. So i hope ya'll can image my reluctance to post it immediately. hehe. Why does someone always have to lose? :( Can they not just call it a draw and BOTH advance? LOL Tellish |
| Moherajikuyx02-16-04, 04:45 AM | Hatzinger - KerlanRayne is right about skill points calculation: SRD, Skills I (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/SkillsI.rtf) Each skill point you spend on a cross-class skill gets your character 1/2 rank in that skill. Cross-class skills are skills not found on your character’s class skill list. [...] Regardless of whether a skill is purchased as a class skill or a cross-class skill, if it is a class skill for any of your classes, your maximum rank equals your total character level + 3. Originally posted by Battousai2005 Id like to note something. I know Mustadio, the maker of Arty, in the real world. He made his fighter the day just before the pairings(something along the line of a few hours.) He didn't want to fight in this weeks matchings. Thats why it says "Ready for 18/2." Thats the date he wanted to first fight on!!! -The Battousai Ok, the level was odd without him so this means that someone had to wait anyways. You might notice that the fight was assigned to LL who usually write the fights late: this was on purpose, in case Mustadio sends the tactics tomorrow he should still be on time. LLMadCow, if you don't recieve Mustadio's tactics please delay the fight to next week. I hope you didn't write it already. Jindl thanks I edited the roster. I had a double Derezan the Crimson, I hope there are no errors. Anyone missing people? |
| Caterane02-16-04, 06:53 AM | I edited the Ilene vs Pale-Rider fight in order to not violate the code of conduct with things like :censored: :censored: and :censored: :censored: :censored: or :censored: and :censored: or an extremly :censored: :censored: :censored: :censored: :censored: Ilene vs Pale-Rider (FSK 12 years) (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2579324#post2579324) |
| Rosella02-16-04, 10:39 AM | hmm, better. I know i'm a critic but I won't be starting about it being boring right now ;) (the last part that is offcourse) |
| MotherBast02-16-04, 12:38 PM | Ok, I'm back. I have ran the long and dull Zippy vs. Clio fight and will be posting it sans-story withen the hour. Sorry to have taken so long. |
| sshuit02-16-04, 12:39 PM | @motherbast : Long and dull?... awwww.... That's not much of a sales pitch sshuit ;) |
| Ethendril02-16-04, 12:56 PM | Has there been a final decision on whether we can use the sneaking shoes, hiding cloaks, masterwork spurs, etc.? I don't really care one way or the other, but I'm fighting people that have them in their inventory, so if they are allowed, I'm going to buy some for myself before next pairings. If they are allowed, to what extent can I buy them? If we are making them up, could you buy some item for 50gp that gives a +2 enhancement to each skill? Doesn't seem quite right, but I see that some use them... -Ethendril |
| LLMadCow02-16-04, 01:49 PM | I posted the Angosh vs Arty fight. I had already listed Angosh's tacitcs and was not going to run the fight later. My choice, sorry if people are upset. I hope people enjoy. A little silly, but very fun. Let Angosh advance, and I do not hold it against anyone if they do not count this as a loss for Arty.... LL |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-16-04, 02:02 PM | DONE! Story and all. @LL: i think you did the right thing and Arty should advance while Mustadio can reset for 0-0. Sometimes my msWord puts in the codes other than what is actually typed. I hate that. Sorry for ite i| symbols etc...throughout the fight. I edited the story part so they are void of those goofy symbols, but the round-round wasn't. Too long. Hope you all enjoy the read. Tellish |
| Caterane02-16-04, 02:22 PM | Harvester throws the Iron bands at Iron, and is sadden to see them fall beside him [atk:1!] http://www.1a-network.de/grafik/guestbook/smilies/nonono.gif No comments on that one. Great fight Tellish. Don`t want to give away anything right now so I wait until everyone read it but especially round 29 bothered me a bit. And the reason for having scrolls and no wand was that I have to store the wand again while I can throw used scrolls away. |
| Market_Share02-16-04, 02:54 PM | Sorry, i realized i forgot to post it at the same times as my last fight. It's there. Gotta jet again. cya'll. SPIKE |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-16-04, 02:59 PM | Originally posted by Caterane Great fight Tellish. Don`t want to give away anything right now so I wait until everyone read it but especially round 29 bothered me a bit. And the reason for having scrolls and no wand was that I have to store the wand again while I can throw used scrolls away. Dunno what you mean. Just doing what you said to do, and it is clearly outlined in your tactics. A couple times actually. Tellish **EDIT** to save scroll space @Jindl: thx for reminding me. I meant to, but just forgot. I'll go do that now. ***EDIT*** the count is done and attached to fight. Didn't wanna post it here in case it spoiled something for someone. |
| Jindl02-16-04, 03:46 PM | @Tellish - Could you please list the items used for the Iron vs Harvester fight? Please include any potential losses of allies as well. Thanks! -Jindl 27 cure light wounds scrolls? How many does he have after the fight? |
| SnarkHunter02-16-04, 04:22 PM | Of course, Donkey snaps. Totally loses it and draws his great axe, and approaches Iron. Anticus spins on his heals and pounces upon Donkey baring his fangs and claws. Donkey comes face to face with the huge megaraptor, staring it nearly eye to eye, as Anticus bares his fangs, dripping with saliva, hungry for a meal. "Sir! Thou art fortunate today that I had the chilli-jalapeno dinner and I washed it back with a gallon of gin. Currently my bowel movement is far to tenuous to flop around with the likes of thee. But rest assured, as soon as these fine gentlemen of Arena-Town build a new out-house and tavern, I shall be the first to arrest your record here." :rofl: |
| sshuit02-16-04, 05:23 PM | @motherbast : Great fight. Just wanted to remind you that with blindfight you get to re-roll concealment due to invisibility so the fight might have ended a bit sooner. Thanks a lot! Zippy & Roger. |
| Caterane02-16-04, 06:15 PM | Oetzi vs Kiri After a bit of searching and sneaking, it goes something like this... Zooomm. Beep beep., thunk! [dmg: 2] "What the?" Zooomm. Beep beep., thunk! [dmg: 3] "Where in the gods..." Zooomm. Beep beep., thunk! [dmg: 4] "If I get hit once more..."¨thunk! [dmg: 2] LOL :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Spike!! That was too funny!! LOL |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-16-04, 07:16 PM | @Cat[@ToK: Actually it does cancel your Hide from animals since it is an attack. The whip is considered a dancing weapon; DMG p264.] I was not aware of this. Thank you for pointing that out. @MS: you're just plain weird dude! Tellish |
| Caterane02-16-04, 07:21 PM | When you threw the whip and said it cost me the fight, you made my heart stop. I was like, "Noooo...that's impossible. I counted every +/- there could be. He could never see me." Phew! You scared the bejesus out of me. Tellish Do you remember when you wrote me that I lost against Irlina in the Vandaeris vs Toad fight? Let me quote Jonny Depp: Vengeance is best served cold :D |
| Arstimis02-16-04, 08:10 PM | A 3-loss bump is like winning, in respect to leveling up and getting the money, correct? |
| SnarkHunter02-16-04, 08:59 PM | @ Aristimis: Oui. @All: Anna vs. Jagath is up! And closer then I thought it would be (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2593172#post2593172) |
| Hatzinger02-17-04, 04:58 AM | @ Market_Share: Hmpf. Very short post. Hmpf. *grummel* At least, the result is as i expected. :bigeyes: |
| Moherajikuyx02-17-04, 05:33 AM | Great fight ToK! I edited the Panza's sheet to reflect your suggestions. I didn't yet for laziness... About nikes: I'm openly against that silliness. I already removed the tools of animal handler from all my pcs (I think). Shall we open a poll? [edit] Yeah we shall. Opening poll. What I believe is that we should let items only in case of already existing non-masterwork items in commerce. SPOILER * # § ^ ì < > ^ | \ / SPOILER Darn! I was so silly at not thinking something better to counter Cat's usual use of SWs. That did his day. But we'll encounter again... ToK, the mounts are now counted as equipment and resurrected, as it seems no one is against this. Cat the undead can't be reanimated though so I guess you'll have to do another monster fight... Who cares you're alone. Also Cat you should post the expenditure of unhallow M for all the fights, you always had the bonus on. |
| Moherajikuyx02-17-04, 05:53 AM | Angosh, Pittbull vs. Arty, Mustadio[MoF]: LLMadCow the fact that Mustadio asked to be ready for the fight of the 18th sadly puts him in the right. Pittbull had a free run here and this is not right. Thus I think it would be better to void the fight. I'm unhappy at doing you this, I guess that if the arena feels otherwise I'll change this ruling. But you could have done your other fight before, or even kept the stuff you wrote for next week... :( Delays: Lvl. 9 Candessa out for # of pcs Spike, Market_Share chllngs Johan Talyana, cellardweller: Caterane Lvl. 10 Rito Maya, Moherajikuyx vs. Hurtz, Tellish_of_Ket: LLMadCow Lvl. 11 Jindl rolled out Bilo Darkleaf, SnarkHunter vs. Brackin Bonesnapper, MotherBast: Magagumo The delay uncredit will be assigned this evening... (Did I miss any fight?) |
| Caterane02-17-04, 06:30 AM | the mounts are now counted as equipment and resurrected, as it seems no one is against this. Cat the undead can't be reanimated though so I guess you'll have to do another monster fight I don`t think this is fair at all! I know the reason behind this argument is that undead - once destroyed - cannot be ressurected again but neither could Anna, and neither could a gladiator killed by the spell "destruction". Mordenkaines Disjunction destroys magic items but they are still available again next fight. If a familiar or a paladins mount dies they have to wait 1 year to get a new one. Or the level loss after a ressurection. The reason for these house rules is that we want to focus on the current fight and not on damaging the gladiator's finance. We learned that when the arena was young and gladiators focused more on sundering equipment and tearing spellbooks apart than fighting the gladiator. The fight against the Nightmare including animation cost me about 3000 Gold and I won`t get away with nothing now that I have to fight it again. This rule essentially says "everyone gets his stuff ressurected/repaired whatever except for undead users" and I cannot think of a reason behind this. As I already pointed out we adepted the rules to the arena for dozens of other things. I don`t know why this should be an exception. And a wish would work pretty well. Cat |
| LLMadCow02-17-04, 06:52 AM | I agree with Cat on this one... quote by Moherajikuyx ToK, the mounts are now counted as equipment and resurrected, as it seems no one is against this. and quote by Caterane This rule essentially says "everyone gets his stuff ressurected/repaired whatever except for undead users" and I cannot think of a reason behind this. As I already pointed out we adepted the rules to the arena for dozens of other things. I don`t know why this should be an exception. The rules we adopt in the arena are meant to be across the board and not be biased towards any one class or character. This being said we can also not specifically exclude any one field of PC. So, if we allow free ressurects of the dead mounts - read this as MOUNTS THAT ARE NO LONGER FUNCTIONAL IN THEIR INTENDED USAGE - we should allow the undead mounts to be brought back as well. Consider this - the Arena Management has an Insurance Policy in place for the Assistants and Vehicles for ALL PCs. So, if the Necromancers VEHICLE (Read Undead Mount) is destroyed, it is 'repaired' for free. If the Necromancers Assistant (Read Undead Cohort) is destroyed, it is also 'repaired' for free. Otherwise, we are just picking on the Necromancer for no reason. |
| Caterane02-17-04, 06:53 AM | I think LL did the right thing. He waited for tactics. When none came he PM'd and eMailed him. No response. No default tactics on the sheet. Mustadio knows the rules (or at least will learn them by hard) but if we make a delay rule in case of no sent tactics one can just send none and go undercover for a week in case he`s not satisfied with the pairing. Moderators are not supposed to run the gladiators on their own. A delay would be unfair to everyone: for the other gladiator who was ready and anticipating a fight, and to the moderator who needs perhaps a credit. This was completely Mustadio's fault and not LL's. Ah, and Mustadio is another "1st post ever on the boards is a gladiator" case but after the Ethendril incident I better shut up LOL. On top of that LL showed that he was willing to make a fight; that this was not a decision out of lazyness. Even as he knew there will be no fight he posted a story. Something most others - including me - wouldn`t`ve done. |
| Moherajikuyx02-17-04, 07:05 AM | Yea LL did the right thing, the error was mine I had to not even put a pairing with Mustadio's pc as he wrote "ready for 18/2": he thus not only knows the rules already, but follows them correctly. Thus the above decision - Cat the "go undercover" part is really not appropriate in this case. About the mounts, it's the same to me. I guess the mounts and gladiators are miracled or wished back alive/unlive, not resurrected. Would that satisfy the arena lawyers? The wizards would have to pay for the familiars' hp loss either way: that correctly rapresents the risk of losing a familiar and I wouldn't remove that. *edit* to solve the problem with LL's double work, I guess he earned a credit. |
| LLMadCow02-17-04, 07:16 AM | quote by LLMadCow I agree with Cat on this one... and quote by Caterane I think LL did the right thing. Ladies and Gentlemen, Kings and Queens, Pimps and pimpees, this evening, I present to you the greatest tag team match-up of all time! Caterane 'The Crazy Caster' & LLMadCow 'The Lunatic Lawyer' vs. Moherajikuyx 'The Arena Moderator' Be there! Seriously though, Mo, sorry to be picking on you, but I know we all have the same goal in mind: Make the Core Arena the best there is and make everything fair and equitable for all participants. Together we sort out and hammer out the many minute details that make this a fun board that has outlasted it's predecessors. Thanks for being cool and understanding and, above all else, thanks for all the hard work you have put into keeping this running! |
| Caterane02-17-04, 07:39 AM | LLMadCat |
| Moherajikuyx02-17-04, 09:13 AM | Well I antagonized with everyone else before... :angel: |
| Jindl02-17-04, 09:15 AM | Originally posted by Caterane I know the reason behind this argument is that undead - once destroyed - cannot be ressurected again but neither could Anna, and neither could a gladiator killed by the spell "destruction". Mordenkaines Disjunction destroys magic items but they are still available again next fight. If a familiar or a paladins mount dies they have to wait 1 year to get a new one. Or the level loss after a ressurection. Actually, the reason is that animated corpses cannot be re-animated. This is different than Anna, who was not created by a spell. As a ghost, Anna has a chance of reviving herself, but a wish/miracle spell would certainly accomplish it as well. A wish/miracle could also fix the gladiator who was killed by "destruction". As for a logical reason why MJ doesn't permanently destroy items, the arena magically prevents this (much like a "spell battle" in Faerun). Also, familiars have to wait a year, paladins only wait a month, animal companions wait for 24 hours. But remember, time is irrelevent between fights, so the wizards could easily "wait" a year between fights without missing a round of pairings (how do you think the Elder got so old... damn Bubo kept dying). The gladiators were revived with true ressurrection, so there was no level loss. But for a wish/miracle to revive an animated dead, you would have to assume that the wish not only creates a new corpse, but that it also imitates the animate dead spell. I think this is too much. Personally, I don't think any "monster fight" allies should be ressurrected for free. As it is, the only limiting factor on animal handling and animated dead are the monster fights. Since we started allowing these two methods of gaining allies, they have quickly become the most powerful by far. Now, the Harvester has a skeletal cauchmare who has more hps, a better BAB, higher damage, and a better speed than any gladiator in the arena. Bruno has a freaking Storm Giant skeleton who can dish out 40+ damage per hit and has double the Hp's of any gladiator. Obviously the animated dead are far superior allies than anything else. So the controlling factor is they are fragile. If your undead somehow is destroyed (a rare occurrence given how powerful they are), then you have to do another monster fight. Is that really so bad? In exchange for having to sit out a week, you get to have the most powerful allies in the arena. Seems like a fair trade to me. Monster fights should have to be fought again to replace the ally lost. It's the only way to keep it balanced, without limiting the power of such allies. -Jindl PS - One final note: Cat, the Harvester is now alone at level 13. Why not go ahead and do his monster fight this week, since he is gonna be sitting out anyway? |
| Caterane02-17-04, 10:02 AM | As for a logical reason why MJ doesn't permanently destroy items, the arena magically prevents this The same argument can be used for undead. You say gladiators are ressurected by 25.000 gp expansive true ressurection? Who`s gonna pay this considering every week some 20 people need this spell? Or Anna. She`s rejuvenating but there must be a method to destroy a ghost permanently (every ghost has one) and so I can go right on a quest to do this. Ha! And time is irrelevant. What if someone else wants to play an non-ghost undead? Is this a 1-shot gladiator then? Ah wait, another exception, I understand :rolleyes: But let`s leave ingame reasons out because I can find equally good reasons why undead can be ressurected. All I want to say is that it would be unfair if we leave undead out. Either we ressurect them for EVERYONE or not at all. This includes druids and paladins aswell. Jindl has to make a trip to the High Forest to get a new animal. I`ll happily volunteer to DM this adventure for you. I have no problem with a monster fight, after all I won`t fight anyway this week, but I have a problem with doing a monster fight when Iron ain`t. And Jindl, who`s companion died more often than Rito, too. More than once I noticed how careless your druid is about the Bat. Melding into stone while the bat gets killed in a hopeless fight. Or sending her forth as cannon fodder. This is absolutely illogical since a druid cares about his companion. But why should he? Nox gets true ressurected for free (because the arena has a link to the elemental plane of gold). Everyone cares about his allies from the Harvester/Bruno`s undead down to simple warhorses and that`s because they have to pay for them if they die. I want to see the same caring between a druid and his best friend. There are even more things I could write about but I`ll leave it at that. Cat |
| Arstimis02-17-04, 10:07 AM | Targ once again flanked Kiowen and fired another acid arrow (13+8 ranged =21 vs touch AC 19, hit), I dont mind losing too much in this fight, the rest was well done. I just had a question about this part. I was wondering why my touch AC was only 19. I know it was a touch attack, so my AC should at least be 10+3(wis)+3(dex)+4(mage armor)=20, and +2 more if shield of faith works for touch AC's...i think it should because its a deflection bonus, anyways, good fight, well done Ethendril. Oh..and another question about feats. We are allowed to use the 3 core rulebooks, correct. So could i select feats from the MM, in my case, Improved Natural Attack? |
| Moherajikuyx02-17-04, 10:18 AM | Hey Cat that's a nice idea... I mean, the one shot gladiator! The ghost is actually a powerful template but that is a nice down-toning of it. I also think that would make for some really fine roleplaying. Jindl what do you think about it... Are you ready to prove yourself with a one-life-only gladiator? :) Thinking about all that, I think that the allies should be given back for free to everyone or to no one - but druids and paladins. Arstimis - yes. Sadly though, INA doesn't work for monks: the description of the monks says that their hands are natural weapons for what concerns effects, not for what concerns requisites, and INA has nat. weapons among the requisites. You could get ability focus: stunning fists (and later on, quivering palms) though. |
| Arstimis02-17-04, 10:40 AM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Arstimis - yes. Sadly though, INA doesn't work for monks: the description of the monks says that their hands are natural weapons for what concerns effects, not for what concerns requisites, and INA has nat. weapons among the requisites. You could get ability focus: stunning fists (and later on, quivering palms) though. so does that mean a fighter's that uses his fists is able to take improved natural attack? I just don't see how the monk's attack description limits it from taking the feat. Are fists natural attacks or not? By what you are saying I couldn't get magic fang cast on my hands because they don't meet the prerequisites of the spell. Since my hands are natural attacks they should qualify for the feat |
| Caterane02-17-04, 10:42 AM | Question: Can someone fly in heavy armor? If not, please show me the page. |
| sshuit02-17-04, 11:05 AM | @ll : Allowing special mounts / cohorts / monstrous companions is the beginning of a swift decline in fairness and the usefulness of core arena. I was under the impression that this board was for helping develop strong builds for real AD&D games. We've now seen numerous examples of things which no sane DM would allow and I think it will only get worse before it gets better. We've seen abuses of PAO, ridiculous mounts, ghosts as PC's and more...... I'm impressed with everyone's ability to min-max, but the actual utility of these builds is really questionable. With monster fights it greatly reduces the usefulness of class abilities like Paladin's mount and Druid's animal companion since fighters / clerics / barbarians have access to all the same or better by doing a "monster fight" I fear for the future of the arena. sshuit |
| LLMadCow02-17-04, 11:06 AM | @Flying in Heavy Armor - Speed is 40' instead of 60'. |
| Caterane02-17-04, 11:09 AM | and in medium armor? |
| Myrridin02-17-04, 11:20 AM | Ok, so I have 2 characters up and ready to fight...both level 2. I'm more than willing to be slaughtered by someone, anyone? On the topic of monsterous companions, it does seem to be taking the focus off of the character. Bruno/Tony versus Jindl for example. Tony did most of the work with the rocks and such, at least the first time. |
| LLMadCow02-17-04, 11:22 AM | Still 40'. |
| Jindl02-17-04, 11:30 AM | I have some comments to post on the allies debate, but first: from the SRD, Types, Subtypes, and Special Abilities, Movement Modes Fly: A creature with a fly speed can move through the air at the indicated speed if carrying no more than a light load. (Note that medium armor does not necessarily constitute a medium load.) All fly speeds include a parenthetical note indicating maneuverability, as follows: ... So, as long as its a light load for weight purposes, then the type of armor shouldn't matter. -Jindl |
| MotherBast02-17-04, 11:30 AM | @Arst: According to a past arena ruling, the spell would work on the monk, because if you targeted him with the spell, its "effect" would recognize the fist as a natural attack. The arena ruled that is not the same as actually having a natural attack however. It has been the ruling since Rito was young. Note, however, that this ruling is only an "arena" rule, and is based on intrepration. If you check the Min/Max boards FAQ, you will find many monks who have taken the improved natural attack feat, and for the most part, the guys on the feats thread seem to think it works. No "offical" rulling exists, however. So, if you wanting to use it for your own game, go for it. I allow it in my games, and the last monk I played used it, though I only played him for one session and never learned if it was truly worth the feat. For arena purposes however, it isen't allowed. |
| MotherBast02-17-04, 12:02 PM | On the matter of monster fights. I too am seeing this desterbing trend. It seems that if you haven't won a monster fight yet, then you might as well not even compet at the double digit levels of the arean. Brackin has no means of gaining any sort of alie. No matter how much I min/max Brackin, he will always be at a disadvantage becasue his CHA is two low for leadership, monks gain no class companion and HA is not a class skill, and he can't animate dead. So, he is forever doomed to be destroyed by the classes that can gain powerful allies. For instance, Brackin's CR will always be = to his level. Bruno's CR at the moment is higher than his level, due to his undead companion. His CR is actually his level +2, give or take a bit. So any fight Bruno has with a character of the same level without an undead companion is actually a fight aginst a foe of lower CR than himself, but he gets the same exp/reward as if he defeated a foe of the same CR. Meanwhile, the other guy, who is 2 CRs less than Bruno, if he somehow manages to win, gets exp/reward only for a creature of his own CR. I don't think eliminating allies is the fix for this, however. Instead, I belive the "fights based on level" system should simply be modified to a "fights based on CR" system. Nothing else would change. Your character would still get gold equal to the level he gains, to keep his CR in the propper place, but he would fight opponits of equal CR instead of equal level. This would also fix the low level problem we have been seeing with Heavy Warhorses being used to win a gladiators way through the first 2 or 3 fights. A level 2 gladiator and a CR 2 War Horse would be CR 4. After winning the first fight, they would remain CR 4, as CR 3 and CR 2 together are still a CR 4 fight, but the gladiator would gain gold and experience to now be level 3. After winning his second fight, he is now CR 4, and the horse still CR 2, which makes him in total a CR 5 encounter. After a few victories, the horse no longer affects his CR at all. Wizzies, Sorc, Druids, and Pallys allies are all class features, and are already counted in the CR of the Character. This would server to return these compainons to there rightfull places at the top of the alie list, as they are basicly "free", and don't add to the CR of the gladiator. This would also ensure that builds that don't rely on allis (which are becomming incressingly rare at high levels) remain comepative at high levels. Let me just take the gladiators at level 10 and up. Of all of them, the most successful would be Bruno, Harvy 1, Iron, and Jindl. Out of the 4, 2 use undead, 1 uses a handled animal, and one is a druid. The druid was domanating untill the Undead and Handled Animals hit the scean, and has sence lost to the undead users. There is also a sneaky Rogue/wiz/assain, and 3 monks. You will notice no pure melee class has made it to this level that isen't a monk. The monks have made it this far by defeating the formaly very popular wiz/sorcs, and each other. Now, the wiz/sorc has the undead, and if he dosen't then he is defeated by the undead or animal commanding cleric. I really think the CR fix is a step in the right direction twords reaquiring balance in the arena. On a different note, we have flat out broken the rules concerning many aspects of the arena's "post-fight" precedures for getting gladiators ready for the next week's battle. I see no reason not to break them equaly for all and allow the revival of undead. If it were an undead gladiator, we would do it for them. |
| Mercy02-17-04, 12:38 PM | @Motherbast - Brilliant suggestion. I'd vote for it. |
| Arstimis02-17-04, 12:43 PM | Originally posted by MotherBast @Arst: According to a past arena ruling, the spell would work on the monk, because if you targeted him with the spell, its "effect" would recognize the fist as a natural attack. The arena ruled that is not the same as actually having a natural attack however. It has been the ruling since Rito was young. Note, however, that this ruling is only an "arena" rule, and is based on intrepration. If you check the Min/Max boards FAQ, you will find many monks who have taken the improved natural attack feat, and for the most part, the guys on the feats thread seem to think it works. No "offical" rulling exists, however. So, if you wanting to use it for your own game, go for it. I allow it in my games, and the last monk I played used it, though I only played him for one session and never learned if it was truly worth the feat. For arena purposes however, it isen't allowed. so basically by the arena's interpretation any other class other than monk can take this feat, because their fists' natural attacks are not specified as only being natural attacks for effects? |
| Ethendril02-17-04, 12:46 PM | so basically by the arena's interpretation any other class other than monk can take this feat, because their fists' natural attacks are not specified as only being natural attacks for effects? Don't you have to be a monster to take feats from the monster manual? Otherwise, why wouldn't these feats just be in the PHB? I think you can only take MM feats if the character race is from the MM...(just my 2 gp). -Ethendril EDIT: I quite like MB's idea on using CR rather than level. |
| LLMadCow02-17-04, 01:02 PM | Rules question: When a character owns a warhorse, and they have 6 specific tricks they want the horse to know, do hey have to train it, or does it come with those 6 tricks? |
| Ethendril02-17-04, 01:06 PM | Rules question: When a character owns a warhorse, and they have 6 specific tricks they want the horse to know, do hey have to train it, or does it come with those 6 tricks? Warhorses are already trained in "combat riding," and know attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel, all automatically. -Ethendril |
| Arstimis02-17-04, 01:11 PM | Originally posted by Ethendril [B]Don't you have to be a monster to take feats from the monster manual? Otherwise, why wouldn't these feats just be in the PHB? I think you can only take MM feats if the character race is from the MM...(just my 2 gp). -Ethendril that doesn't make much sense. Can monsters only take feats from the monster manual? And moh said I could take the feat (if I qualified for it, which is what I am questioning) so I assume they are allowed Oh, and Ethendril, could you take a look at the question I posted earlier about my ac only being 19......it should be 22 |
| barrel_master02-17-04, 01:13 PM | I kinda agree with the whole 'the arena companions have gone too far' arguement. Of course this is all a matter that the board must decide. |
| Ethendril02-17-04, 01:44 PM | that doesn't make much sense. Can monsters only take feats from the monster manual? And moh said I could take the feat (if I qualified for it, which is what I am questioning) so I assume they are allowed I think it makes a lot of sense. In fact, so does the monster manual, which states right under the section titled "Monster Skills and Feats": "This chapter provides descriptions of one skill, Control Shape, and a number of feats that are typically used only by monsters." Oh, and Ethendril, could you take a look at the question I posted earlier about my ac only being 19......it should be 22 I sent you a PM a few hours ago, in which I stated that mage armor provides an "armor" bonus, which is not taken into account with touch attacks. So your AC was 19 against all attacks he made against you, since they were all touch. -Ethendril |
| Arstimis02-17-04, 01:48 PM | I think MotherBast's suggestion is great. It makes a lot more sense and would be quite fair |
| Arstimis02-17-04, 02:00 PM | Originally posted by Ethendril I think it makes a lot of sense. In fact, so does the monster manual, which states right under the section titled "Monster Skills and Feats": "This chapter provides descriptions of one skill, Control Shape, and a number of feats that are typically used only by monsters." If your going to italicize 'only by monsters' I am going to italicize 'typically'. You can't rule out the word typically, as min/maxing typically produces anything but the typical character. If you meet the prerequisites you can take the feat. The prerequisites are the restriction, not the book it comes from I sent you a PM a few hours ago, in which I stated that mage armor provides an "armor" bonus, which is not taken into account with touch attacks. So your AC was 19 against all attacks he made against you, since they were all touch. -Ethendril oh sorry, I haven't looked at my pms. I never knew that mage armor didn't help for touch attacks. Thanks for telling me, I will remember for next time. And if that's true then my touch ac should have only been 18, not 19 |
| Ethendril02-17-04, 02:03 PM | If you meet the prerequisites you can take the feat. The prerequisites are the restriction, not the book it comes from Exactly. What I'm saying is, that in my opinion, it is a prerequisite that you must typically be a monster to take feats or skills in the monster manual. -Ethendril EDIT: Why did they bother to put them in different books? |
| Druid Roxors02-17-04, 02:24 PM | In that case, A level 5+ Druid would qualify for Improved Natural Attack, due tho his wildshape ability? This could be very intresting indeed. |
| Arstimis02-17-04, 02:25 PM | Originally posted by Ethendril Exactly. What I'm saying is, that in my opinion, it is a prerequisite that you must typically be a monster to take feats or skills in the monster manual. -Ethendril EDIT: Why did they bother to put them in different books? ok, just say I agree with you. The prerequisite is you must typically be a monster. Fine cool. But I am not typical, so therefore I don't have to be a monster. And therefore I can take the feat They put them in differnt books, because that is where they would typically be used for |
| Ethendril02-17-04, 02:32 PM | Originally posted by Arstimis [B]The prerequisite is you must typically be a monster. Fine cool. But I am not typical, so therefore I don't have to be a monster. And therefore I can take the feat Okay, so what makes your monk atypical from every other monk? |
| Arstimis02-17-04, 02:39 PM | Originally posted by Druid Roxors In that case, A level 5+ Druid would qualify for Improved Natural Attack, due tho his wildshape ability? This could be very intresting indeed. indeed it could |
| Caterane02-17-04, 02:41 PM | Spike vs Johan Talyana (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2599167#post2599167) Sorry that I post it that late but there were several complications in it. On top of that Johan summons more monsters than we have gladiators :mad: Anyway, I think you`ll like the story :) |
| MotherBast02-17-04, 02:53 PM | @Arst: I belive it was decided that "unarmed" attacks do not count as "Natural Attacks." So it isen't "just monks" that can't benifit from this feat. No class can benifit from it. It requires the base creature to have a "Natural Attack", so the type of creature would determin its access to the feat, not its class. As I said, I don't necessarly agree with this ruling, but this is how it was explained to me. |
| Druid Roxors02-17-04, 03:02 PM | I think that a monk would qualify for the feat as well as any other creature with a basic attack, even unarmed. The problem is that the monk uses his Flurry of blows, which does not necesarily means that he is hitting with his hands. His whole body is a weapon and he can't take INA Body. You could say a monk could take it for his fists, but that, in my opinion, would go against the spirit fo the rules. In the other hand, if he does use that feat, you could consider it as wielding a larger weapon via "monkey grip" (CW). If fighters can enhance the damage on their weapons in that way I would be inclined to think that monks should be able to do the same. But there is a problem, Fighters typically use weapons with standard damage but elemental enhancements. Since all of the monk's attack (or most of it) depends on his base damage, INA would give them a more than hefty increase in damage. I have experience with a pc in my campain who is a lizardman monk. I let him use the feat (actually decided that the feat should be free since they get stronger NA's than humans) and he deals quite more damage that I would have liked.. Anyways, this could prove unbalancing, be careful. |
| Arstimis02-17-04, 03:08 PM | Originally posted by Ethendril Okay, so what makes your monk atypical from every other monk? show me what a typical monk is, and I will tell you why mine is atypical. Basically the MM is saying those feats are typically for monsters, which means that they aren't only for monsters, meaning something else must me able to take it. That something else is me :) |
| KerlanRayne02-17-04, 03:12 PM | @Arstimis: The problem with Improved Natural Attack is that normal PC's don't have natural weapons, they have unarmed attacks. So the monk is the only class that even has a chance at qualifying for it because of the "A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons." thing. It's been debated and here in the Arena, it's been ruled they can't take it. KerlanRayne |
| Caterane02-17-04, 03:13 PM | think it makes a lot of sense. In fact, so does the monster manual, which states right under the section titled "Monster Skills and Feats": "This chapter provides descriptions of one skill, Control Shape, and a number of feats that are typically used only by monsters." 1) First, there is no definition what a "monster" is and what not. 2) Second, and more importantly, elfs, dwarfs and all the other character races are in the MM too so they have access to these. 3) There is no rule written that you cannot use feats because they are written in a certain section. Limitations are called "Prerequisites" and these are detailed in every feat. So if you somehow manage to add a third arm to your human cleric he may get the multiattack feat. |
| LLMadCow02-17-04, 03:29 PM | Go read my fight I just posted. Rito Maya vs Hurtz (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&perpage=1&postid=2599478#post2599478) Tell me what you think! |
| Caterane02-17-04, 03:29 PM | Since the beginning we had trouble balancing the arena out. Most of the problems came from the fact that not all classes are equally suited for 1 on 1 combat. There were mostly fighter/barbarians and wizards running around. Some of the adeptions like prememorizing helped to make other classes more attractive. Other reasons were the class ability companions from paladins and druids who were essentially another gladiator and the fight went 2 vs 1. In my opinion druids or paladins are in no way weaker than clerics or fighters so the companion was a bonus that shifted the balance. Again, we had to find some way to compensate. These came in form of animate undead. It proved unbalancing (I still shed a tear for my 20HD dragon Crimson Sunrise) so we limited these with a monster fight and gave others access to equally strong allies through leadership and handle animal. Now, I see the monks and maybe others who don`t rely on high charisma/Ha/leadership, or those who just don`t want to take it or run around with an ally are still at a disadvantage. Motherbast`s idea is a great one! It would instantly fix so many things but unfortunately it is very difficult to do. If I am level 8 and get an ally that raises my CR+2 then how am I supposed to get to the lvl 10 roster? Am I going to skip 2 levels? And fall back again when I lose my ally? What if the Harvester wants to use Knellstriker instead of Nightingale which will affect the fights? We have to base the roster on CR and not on levels but still assign prize money according to levels. That`s much workload to do, especially for Mo, and it will be confusing too. I am still convinced that we will balance the arena over time. Perhaps this is another step into the right direction... |
| Magagumo02-17-04, 03:35 PM | I believe the ruling on the boards was that all Monstrous Feats are theoretically available for all PCs, as the FAQ even states that one can take Ability Focus with Monk Stunning Fist. But as for the improved Natural Attack, the boards ruling has been a no-go on letting monks take that one. On cohorts- I am admittedly torn, as I do think the undead are the strongest cohorts in the arena (See, I can be sensible ^_~) but I agree w/ Cat that if we need to go re-fight these beasties and animate them, then it is fair for those who also acquire their cohorts through non-feats or class abilities (like Iron's Atticus) to take the time to recapture them. At the least, we are all on the same time-delay, but as I think Atticus is weaker than say Nightingale or Agamemmnon, I don't have a problem that Iron doesn't really have to spend cash. If Anna dies, I believe she should be brought back, as she is an actual gladiator, no sense in making Jindl spend all those credits if we are suddenly going to start eliminating gladiators through "death." Yes, we're bending the rules by free-resurrecting Anna but not the cohorts, but I think this is an issue where I say screw the "Darn" Rules, and just focus on having fun. Sure, it'll cost me if Agamemnon dies (in fact, Bruno will be unable to retrieve him for a bit), but I honestly am not too concerned that people will go directly after him (your funeral guys, he hits hard but Bruno still has the nasty spells that make the people fall down dead ^_~) Anyways, just my 3.5 cp. I'm still running Brackin v. Bilo, after 2.5 hrs it looked close to being finsihed, but then the buffing started so we'll see how long this one takes.... Edit: @ Jindl- I still haven't gotten that link on the Empower Spell ruling, so I suggest we keep it as has been run in the past (Empower affects all numbers, provided they are linked to a random digit. I.E> 1d10+10 (False Life) will range from 11-20x1.5 and Ray of Enfeeblement is 1d6+5 (max) so 6-11 becomes 9-16). Once you find the link, please let us know though. |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-17-04, 03:40 PM | Not free. Undead companions and those gained through monster fights ARE NOT AUTO-REPLACED. That is silly. Why would a guy have to re-purchase his 400gp hvy warhorse if it dies, but you don't have to replace a 10-hd monster? If a 25gp riding dog has to be re-purchased and replaced, then sorry, you're gonna have to re-fight your FREEmonster that you lost. Both glaidators, if they wish new monstrous mounts/allies, will need to arrange for new monster fights. That shouldn't even be in debate. @Cat/LL: Good job on the fights. Tellish |
| Caterane02-17-04, 03:58 PM | I have already given my 2 euros to the companion thing. Either all or no one has to fight to get them back. I am still not satisfied with the companion thing. It`s cool for the Harvester to have a Nightmare; something I broke my head about how I should be possible to charge with a warhorse at higher levels. But even better would be a *cheers* Nightwing *cheers* (at later levels of course). Or Ebelin. I don`t want him to have an animal, nor an undead so there is really not much choice for him. A hound archon would be much cooler! What I want to say is that our selection of allies is still too limited. But an idea crossed my mind which could improve our selection tremendously and fix Motherbast`s problem at once: Mercenaries! You can hire them (paying gold), and you don`t need a feat, high charisma, spells, or handle animal. And you can get a suiting ally, one that fits to your character`s personality. Mercenaries would be virtually every monster in the MM and every class/race combination. The balancing border would be a monster fight (limits the power) and some gold depending on CR (which compensates the others who used skillpoints or feats to get an ally). This opens the whole MM to us without much problems, and we can make the gold price as high or low as we want, completely regulating the price to perfectly balance it out. It is in our hands. Cat |
| Magagumo02-17-04, 04:22 PM | Brackin v. Bilo fight posted. I think all my chars are labeled as prepared for this week, Moh, so I'm ready for that :) |
| kattattack2202-17-04, 04:45 PM | Just in my opinion, I hate allies. It ruins the idea of 2 gladiators facing off in the arena for me, but I understand some classes have built companions and character concepts of mounted fighters and archers, etc. That is why Ony is a pure staff fighter and will NEVER get a mount or ally, not matter how bad *** I think Ony would be by taming a silver or red dragon (just a small one). Originally posted by MotherBast This would also fix the low level problem we have been seeing with Heavy Warhorses being used to win a gladiators way through the first 2 or 3 fights. This isn't necessarily true. Ony did fine against a mounted oppoent. Just have to take the mount into consideration of tatics. There obviously isn't going to be an easy solution to the problem of allies. They way I have been seeing it as long it has to do with the gladiator himself he is resurrected and his stuff repaired for free. I would suggest a token payment for the ressurrection of allies either having to pay gold, or a monster fight to replace. For strong allies there should be a high cost and some risk in having them (by needing to replace or pay gp for ressurction if they die). I really don't like the idea of matches by EL only because a level 2 character with a heavy warhorse may be EL 4 but a lv 4 character can shoot a bow a few times and end the match. |
| sshuit02-17-04, 05:26 PM | @Motherbast : I agree with everything you've said. Re: Mercenaries. : This just makes things even more confusing. I like the +CR idea much better. I like a 1 on 1 fight, not 2 on 2. sshuit |
| SnarkHunter02-17-04, 05:27 PM | Hey Mo: Only Donkey will be fighting but I'd like to have two fights. |
| Jindl02-17-04, 05:40 PM | Re: Ally Replacement - I agree with what MotherBast said, about how allies are unbalancing. I wish there was a simple way to institute a CR vs CR match-up system. Unfortunately, there isn't (as some others have already illustrated). But the point is that we need balance. I suggest we use risk to institute that balance. A druid / paladin has no risk in using a companion. Their ally is a class feature that they gain for free. Thus they can gain a new one for free as well. A wizard/sorceror has minor risk in using their familiar. Their ally is cheap to acquire (only 100 gp), but if it dies they pay a hefty gp amount for the lost experience. Still, they could replace it with a new one for only the 100 gp. A person with the leadership feat has some risk in losing thier ally. There is a -2 penalty to their leadership score for causing the death of a cohort, which I suggest lasts until they win 2 fights. Thus if your cohort dies, you can get a new one for free, but won't be able to get one as powerful until you win 2 fights (and reestablish your reputation). Also, cohorts are the most expensive allies, costing a feat to acquire, and this initial cost should offset some of the risk. And cohorts have proven to be the weakest of the allies, especially in comparison to handled's and animated's. A person who gains an ally through a monster fight, is getting the most powerful sort of ally. To offset this, the risk is that they must complete another monster fight to replace this ally if it dies. This risk of having to spend a little money and another week in a monster fight, offsets the advantage of a more powerful ally. All in all, I think it balanced to say that you must acquire a new ally when yours is slain, and that you can acquire the new ally the same way you acquired the old one. This is the way it has been and I see no reason to change it. -Jindl |
| Caterane02-17-04, 05:52 PM | A druid / paladin has no risk in using a companion. Their ally is a class feature that they gain for free. Thus they can gain a new one for free as well. A wizard/sorceror has minor risk in using their familiar. Their ally is cheap to acquire (only 100 gp), but if it dies they pay a hefty gp amount for the lost experience. and this is where it gets unbalanced. I can vividly remember when Ebelin with his tiny weak familiar had to face Jindl and Nox, both having more hp than Ebelin himself, and quadruple than Ashteru. I never had a chance. But still I have to pay and you not despite both being a class feature. And your suggestion doesn`t solve the REAL problem Motherbast pointed out: that allies cannot be aquired by some classes/builds, or at least they cannot aquire one as powerful. It is no problem for me to sit out now, and honestly, I don`t think the nightmare is much of a problem now or very ressource-intensive, nor will Iron have any problems with a megaraptor. Having us sit out solves nothing: next week it is still Harvester+Nightingale vs Brackin ...and his fists. And on top of that The Harvester has to sit out anyway. Jindl, I want to hear your opinion on the mercenary suggestion (despite that you almost never agree with me :) ) @Sshuit: You`re kidding! Managing the roster and moving gladiators up and down depending on their CR (which will constantly be in motion!) is FAR FAR FAR more difficult, I would say even nearly impossible, than making a single fixed rule on how expensive a mercenary is. I really don`t understand your line of thought. |
| Jindl02-17-04, 06:32 PM | Originally posted by Caterane Jindl, I want to hear your opinion on the mercenary suggestion (despite that you almost never agree with me :) ) Heh - I agreed with you on your analysis of the monster feats. But for the mercenaries, wouldn't it just make outlandish monster allies even more common? I think we should be looking at ways to restrict allies, rather than opening the door for lots of new ones. -Jindl BTW: Having to re-do the monster fight, forces you to moderate more fights to regain your ally. Also, your PC doesn't get to advance a level (which matters more for Iron this time than for the Harvester). But these are the balancing factors. Extra moderator work and no character advancement, to replace the ally you lost. |
| Sir Cridion02-17-04, 06:52 PM | Hi all, Well, homework is piling up and project deadlines are edging in. I don't think I'll have the time for the arena, so I'm retiring Faldion, Aeriel and Delynal. It's been fun - you guys are great writers and worthy opponents. It's been fun reading the battles and the storylines that come with them, watching characters develop a story of their own. Anyways, maybe I'll come back with some improved builds sometime in the future. It was fun while it lasted. As they say online, gl hf. |
| kattattack2202-17-04, 07:06 PM | I think we should be looking at ways to restrict allies, rather than opening the door for lots of new ones. Definately a good plan. Maybe harsher penalities for when one loses an ally like burial costs. Well, homework is piling up and project deadlines are edging in. I don't think I'll have the time for the arena, so I'm retiring Faldion, Aeriel and Delynal. @Sir Cirdion - Good luck with homework and such I know what crunch time feels like and it hurts. You were a fine and worthy opponent. |
| Druid Roxors02-17-04, 07:19 PM | Mercenaries are not a good option at all. Picture Mr wizard casting improved invisiblity and trying to get a companion who cant spot invisible creatures. Or a druid casting Airwalk on an Earthbound creature (tarrasque like) and just bombing him with fireseeds. A cleric fighting a poisoning and fire creature with fire protection and delay poison. What this is going to create is a wave of a few mercenaries with critical weaknesess that can be exploited by (some) classes and bringing them against the classes not so fortunate. |
| Caterane02-17-04, 07:47 PM | One moment! This discussion is going the wrong way because you focus on the wrong points. I think we should be looking at ways to restrict allies, rather than opening the door for lots of new ones. The reason for this is that the whole ally thing isn`t balanced yet and it won`t be balanced with a simple monster fight, nor with things like burial costs. The ally will still be there and overpowered. So Iron sits out a week but next week he`ll kick Brackin around again who didn`t advance either because he lost against the Harvester. That are the facts. To balance this I want to open options to classes who do not have access to (a useful) one with the current rules. The gold payment should be higher/the monster should be more difficult to get because you don`t have to spend a feat/skills/class-ability on that one (like a monk) but still have an ally. Someone with access to allies through leadership/Handle animal/etc can still get a mercenary but that will cost him more than using his class abilities/feats/skills (but makes it still attractive because he has more ally choices). What this is going to create is a wave of a few mercenaries with critical weaknesess that can be exploited by (some) classes and bringing them against the classes not so fortunate. The monster fight is just the cream on the pie (sitting out a week, spending ressources, moderating, possibility to lose, etc). The main factor is the GOLD PAYMENT and therefore they are called Mercenaries! Please focus on the reason behind this. Don`t just say no just because hearing "what? all monsters available? :eek: " but think about it for a few minutes. |
| Arstimis02-17-04, 07:52 PM | From v3.5 SRD A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons. IMPROVED NATURAL ATTACK [GENERAL] Prerequisite: Natural weapon, base attack bonus +4. Benefit: Choose one of the creature’s natural attack forms. The damage for this natural weapon increases by one step, as if the creature’s size had increased by one category: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6. A weapon or attack that deals 1d10 points of damage increases as follows: 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8 Ok...so a monk's unarmed strike is considered a natural weapon for the purpose of effects that improve natural weapons. The Improved Natural Attack feat does just that So how can anyone argue that a monk is unable to take this feat? Edit: I agree that it should only be for one type of weapon, so i would pick my fists. If you guys think it should only be for one weapon I will pick my right fist |
| Caterane02-17-04, 08:03 PM | Let me give you an example. The Harvester (cleric) wants to have a Cauchemar Nightmare (15Hd). He has to fight it in a monster fight and then - for animation through the spell - pay 375 gp Iron the Panza (barb) wants to have a Megaraptor grandpa (15Hd). He has to fight it in a monster fight. He already payed with skill points. Brackin (monk) wants to get one too, but no! Poor Brackin has no animate dead, nor does he have handle animal or leadership. He fights the Harvester and gets eaten by Nightingale just to be overrun by Anticus the week thereafter. "Unfair! I want an ally too!" With the new rule he will be able to aquire one. He wants an undead too, say a Dragon skeleton (15Hd). Same thing: he has to fight it in a monster fight. Then, because it is a mercenary, he has to pay 2000 Gp. It is more expensive for Brackin but that`s ok because the Harvester has used a class ability and Brackin not (nor did he invest in handle animal or leadership) but at least Brackin won`t get eaten by Nightingale (at least not in round 1 :D ) The numbers are picked on instinct. Note that the amount of gold can easily be altered, very quickly if necessary. I think that`s a good solution, perhaps the best step we can make towards equalness between the classes. At least we should give it a try. |
| Caterane02-17-04, 08:05 PM | A bit offtopic but just to clear this up: a monks hands are not considered natural weapons and therefore he cannot take this feat. A natural weapon is a claw or a bite, something which doesn`t provoke naturally. A human's hands are not natural weapons. The monk merely knows how to put his hands to good use. |
| MotherBast02-17-04, 08:13 PM | @Arst: The argument isen't that the feat wouldn't work for the monk. If the monk could aquire the feat, then its "effect" would indeed work for the monk, as all "spells and effects" that effect natural attacks work for the monk. The argument is that the feat has a prerec that requires a "natural attack". The monks fist a "concidered" natural attacks for "effects", but the arena has ruled that that dosen't actually make them natural attacks, and so even though the feat would work if they could take it, they can't take it because they don't meet the prereq. Again, I'm just repeating the arguments that were given to me. Most of the guys on the Min/Max and Feats boards have the same opinion as you, but this is the arena, and untill the decision on this is reevaluated and reversed, which I don't see as happening any time soon, then the feat is off-limits for monks. |
| Arstimis02-17-04, 08:26 PM | Originally posted by Caterane A bit offtopic but just to clear this up: a monks hands are not considered natural weapons and therefore he cannot take this feat. A natural weapon is a claw or a bite; the monk merely knows how to out his hands to good use. Correct, but you left out something. A natural weapon is also any appendage that deals damage in combat, therefore a monks hands/feet/whatever off his body is a natural attack @Arst: The argument isen't that the feat wouldn't work for the monk. If the monk could aquire the feat, then its "effect" would indeed work for the monk, as all "spells and effects" that effect natural attacks work for the monk. The argument is that the feat has a prerec that requires a "natural attack". The monks fist a "concidered" natural attacks for "effects", but the arena has ruled that that dosen't actually make them natural attacks, and so even though the feat would work if they could take it, they can't take it because they don't meet the prereq. Can anyone tell me what a natural attack is. The best definition that i can come up with is an attack that is made with a natural weapon. Can anyone else come up with a better one? Again, I'm just repeating the arguments that were given to me. Most of the guys on the Min/Max and Feats boards have the same opinion as you, but this is the arena, and untill the decision on this is reevaluated and reversed, which I don't see as happening any time soon, then the feat is off-limits for monks. Anyone else think this decision should be reevaluated and reversed? |
| Bishop the Bardican02-17-04, 08:42 PM | There is no philosophical debate here. An unarmned strike is not a natural attack. Good fight, give it up. I will give you a new cause. Since your attacks are made by your hands, feet, and head (five natural weapons) you should try to take multiattack for four secondary attacks. At 1st level you would have six attacks per round with flurry of blows. |
| Battousai200502-17-04, 08:45 PM | @Arstimis: A natural attack is defined on p 312 of the MM. Simply put, its any weapon that is part of a creatures body that does not provoke an attack of opp when used. Heres the problem(sorry pal). A natural weapon does not gain additional attacks. Meaning that base attack bonuses do not grant any additional attacks after every five. Unfortunatly, a monk does not qualify (again, sorry) @Everyone: Allies are useful, yes. Powerful, indeed. But if you want a good example of how to waste someone with an ally, see my fight vs. Grym. Simply put, a half orc kills my giant eagle in one round(sucks). Allys are powerful assets, but they are not the means of victory. They are, in essence, an addition to tactics. If a person could(theoretical) have an adult red dragon as an ally but put him to bad use, what happens. Ally dies and there goes a lot of gold. Look at my eagle. 5k down the drain. |
| Caterane02-17-04, 08:57 PM | @Battousi: 5000 for a 4Hd animal while a 16Hd undead costs 400. With the new rule you would`ve been able to get a mercenary of equal power with a lot fewer money. And don`t even think allies make no difference. Jindl would`ve taken Bruno into his details were it not for Tony. Bruno was completely trapped! Same goes for the Rito vs Bruno fight. Or an earlier match between Jindl and Ebelin where I couldn`t use invisibility because of Direbat Nox who was on top of that even stronger in melee than I was. A pity you haven`t witnessed Crimson Sunrise in battle, my 20Hd Red Dragon Zombie *sigh*. Or read Ebelin vs Iron when he had his Dragon mount; the fight was a hairs breadth but the Dragon tore me apart in the end. Allies DO make a difference so we should make sure everyone can get one. Removing allies at all is not an option. |
| Arstimis02-17-04, 09:07 PM | natural attack is not defined on pg 312 of any MM i have. What i think you are refering to is Natural Weapons. that isnt much of a debate, as 3.5 srd statesA monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons. The fact that a monks hands are applicable for being natural weapons, able to posess the feat Improved Natural Attack is obviously true..motherbast said this was the arena standing so far (unless i misread something, correct me if im wrong). The thing in question is what is a Natural Attack, and does a monk posess a Natural Attack. I think a natural attack is any attack made with a natural weapon. Since a monk uses natural weapons he has a natural attack. Does anyone else have a definition for natural attack? |
| MotherBast02-17-04, 09:17 PM | The improved natural attack feat requires a "natural weapon", not a "natural attack" as a prereq. The argument is that although the monk's unarmed strike is "treated as a natural weapon for spells and effects", that dosne't mean it "is" a natural weapon. Thats the argument, in a nut shell. |
| Arstimis02-17-04, 09:21 PM | ok, sorry for the confusion From v3.5 SRD A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons. Does anyone disagree that the feat Improved Unarmed Attack enhances or improves the monks natural weapon? |
| sshuit02-17-04, 09:23 PM | This is so silly. Problem : Some allies are stronger than others and everyone wants equal access to monstrous / cohort allies Solution : Let everyone have equal access to said monstrous allies/cohorts. Result : 2 vs 2 fights instead of 1 vs 1 fights. So, then once everyone has equally unbalanced allies, then the allies will cancel out and then we can concentrate on the gladiators again? *pffft* Wouldn't it be easier just to get rid of all these damn allies? After all we're min-maxing characters, not choosing the best monster cohorts aren't we? sshuit |
| Caterane02-17-04, 09:33 PM | No this is no option. Cancelling all allies will destroy many many builds, especially mounted ones. We don`t want that to happen. Also we would have to eliminate ALL companions including familiars and class companions else it wouldn`t be balanced. So, should we keep warhorses only for the mounted builds? Unfair, because they win low level fights. Familiars are part of wizards but then we have to allow for druid/paladin companions too ...and these are too strong and unbalancing; a 2vs1 fight. We made that experience long ago so we allowed for additional companions. And so on and so on. Where to start and where to stop? The arena developed until it is what it is now. We are still seeking balance and mine was another suggestion in this direction. And don`t say it is silly. You weren`t around here when we had that what you suggest. And it did not work. |
| Battousai200502-17-04, 09:39 PM | @sshuit There is a simple problem with getting rid of allies. What happens to poor druids like me:sad: ? Wizards familiars and paladin warhorse? Goodbye. I cant bring an ally in and that means i have a useless class ability. Another problem is that 2v2 matches are horrible. The big problem is that a wolf is not exatcly as powerful as a half-orc barbarian. No ally is as powerful as a charcter, no matter what. What needs to happen is to balance the allys out. I like the merc idea but there are still problems. I cant personally see any solutions. |
| barrel_master02-17-04, 09:42 PM | Ar, ha ha, I suppose the whole ally thing is kinda silly sshuit. :) Well, I'm gonna bring Peter in again this week. Maybe I'll be able to bump him if he looses his next fight. |
| Caterane02-17-04, 09:43 PM | Please keep in mind that we can always regulate the cost for the mercenary. If they proove too strong --> make them more expensive. No Problem. This is completely in our hands. |
| Battousai200502-17-04, 10:07 PM | @Cat: I hope this settles things. There is still the question of fighting the monsters, though i suppose that could be considered a lost level from the week off. Still, what if someone was to beat an insane monster for his level and somehow wrangle enough gold to pay? You may find that in your future. |
| sshuit02-17-04, 10:18 PM | This may well not be an option, but I still think its the most balanced. Familiars not allowed, animal companions not allowed, and since everyone can buy a warhorse, that seems fair enough. I'd even be ok with no warhorses. Better to nerf mounted builds than to nerf every build without an ally..... This is a classic example of the "slippery slope" problem. You start out allowing horses, then mounted builds become too strong, then you start allowing other animal allies, then animated skeletons, then storm giants, cauchemares, megaraptors etc.etc.etc. Once allies are equal and fair they will cancel out and it will mean just the 2 gladiators fighting just as it should be, so why not cut out the middle man and just eliminate the allies? Originally posted by Caterane No this is no option. Cancelling all allies will destroy many many builds, especially mounted ones. We don`t want that to happen. Also we would have to eliminate ALL companions including familiars and class companions else it wouldn`t be balanced. So, should we keep warhorses only for the mounted builds? Unfair, because they win low level fights. Familiars are part of wizards but then we have to allow for druid/paladin companions too ...and these are too strong and unbalancing; a 2vs1 fight. We made that experience long ago so we allowed for additional companions. And so on and so on. Where to start and where to stop? The arena developed until it is what it is now. We are still seeking balance and mine was another suggestion in this direction. And don`t say it is silly. You weren`t around here when we had that what you suggest. And it did not work. |
| Arstimis02-17-04, 10:31 PM | Still awaiting answers to my question about improved natural attack Otherwise i had a question about a ring of counterspells. How much would it cost to get Greater Dispel Magic cast into the ring, and would that also counter spell dispel magic, or not? |
| Battousai200502-17-04, 10:35 PM | @Sshuit: Big problem. Animal companions and familiars are a big part of a ranger/druid/sorcere/wizard. The reason for druids and rangers is they trade normal abilities for them. Heres a rough sketch of what I mean. Being a druid, ill use a druid: A cleric is an defensive and slight offensive, can spontaniously cast cure spells, has full armor pros. and has simple weapon pro. They can cast spells and gain a domain. A druid is a mix of offensive and defensive spellcasting as well. They have access only to a few types of armor, can spontaniously cast summon natures ally, gain few weapon proficencies, have no domain access, and gain the animal companion. I dont know if you can see it, but the druid basically trades the weapon and armor pros for the Animal companion and a few offensive spells that pale before arcane types. If you really want, ill draw up the other balances to satisfy you. |
| SnarkHunter02-17-04, 10:37 PM | @sshuit: yeah that would work but it would be less fun so I doubt you'll get much support. Not from me either btw. @Aristimis: It would counter the greater but not the lesser. You could always get two rings... Hmm. @Cat: This is reminiscent of the scheme we had proposed the first time we said Monster ally's were to powerful. That is Gold for ally. People complained (with reason!) that this was to debilitating for people who spent hard earned class features/feats/skills to get their allies. And so monster fights were instituted. I think if we want to figure out a good price for a given Mercenary we should go back to one of those gold schemes. I think Mag's wound up gettting the most votes but I'd have to check. Maybe a minimum of like, 1,000 gold too which would be added to based on the relative power of the merc. |
| cellardweller02-17-04, 11:11 PM | A couple of issues with the Johan/Spike fight. The range on the symbol of sleep is greater than the range of Summon monster, so the summons should have had to make saves as soon as they appeared. notes made on Johans tactics: d Silent Fly [You cannot put any other spells then the 2 mentioned ones in your domain slots.] You can prepare any domain spell in a domain slot. Fly is a domain spell, there is no rule preventing it from being prepared in L4 slot. |
| LLMadCow02-17-04, 11:58 PM | Let's face it. All allies should be able to balance each other out. What needs to happen is peole need to take a comprehensive look at what there is to offer and list all the pros and cons. I DO NOT think that we should do away with all allies. This is the wrong answer. I DO think that all allies need to be regulated. Restricting Allies to NONE eliminates some of the bonuses built into classes. (I have already expressed the inherent bonus that races loose out on, but that is a topic for another day!) Okay, let's just cripple the system as a whole if you want to eliminate all allies. Wizards and Sorcerers - No Familiars. Paladins - No Special Mounts. Druids and Rangers - No Animal Companions. How do we hamstring everyone else to even things out...? Barbarians - No Rage. Clerics - No spontaneous Casting of Cure. Monks - No Wis bonus to anything. Bards - Nothing remotely musical. Fighters - Less bonus feats. Rogues - No Sneak Attacks. I could go on, but I assume you get the point. Allies are good. They allow you to specialize a build, a potentially weak build and compensate with an Ally. That is the point. Sometimes the goal of early combat turns into - eliminate the Ally. This poses some issues. Yes, the Druid should care about his Animal Companion, but this is all out war. You know - All's fair in love and war! "Hey bud, buy me a few extra moments so that we can win this and then I will bring you back if I need to!" This isn't so unreasonable for the scenario we are in. So, what do we do? HD cap? Stat cap? Who knows, but this is what it comes down to... How much sacrifice is made to EARN the ally? Do you get it as class feature? From a Feat? From battle and Necromancy? From Handle Animal? From spending some gold? Let's face it. If I want to BUY an ally, I do not need anyone's permission. I can BUY an ally and PAY to have it trained. What then? Why is it that some allies can be bought, but not others? The Illithid deal in slave trade, right? |
| Arstimis02-18-04, 01:34 AM | Sorry for the irritating consistency...but i would like an answer From v3.5 SRD A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons. Does anyone disagree that the feat Improved Unarmed Attack enhances or improves the monks natural weapon? |
| Jindl02-18-04, 01:50 AM | @Pittbull (and MO) - I just noticed that the new character, Angosh, is a duergar. Since that means you have a LA +1, you may only have a single class level, since all characters begin at ECL 2 (unless you spend lots of credits). So, Angosh needs to be adjusted down a level in order to be ready to fight. @Mo - I just couldn't resist. Behold, the return of Iku Rex, or at least a character in a similar vein. In this incarnation, he will be called, Aku .. The Shapeshifting Master of Darkness. He can be found on the 2nd page of the gladiators, in the Elder's old spot, and he is ready for action. Also, the Ghost of the Arena, has decided to try her taming skills. The prey? She's hunting a Gorgon. And Jindl of the High Forest, well, its monk season, and they're are a flock of them for him to battle... (3 fights this week, since my monster fight counts as 2 pcs.) -Jindl |
| Druid Roxors02-18-04, 02:13 AM | Let me give you a clearer example... Mr Fighter Dood wants an ally because he is getting his arse handed in to him. He requests a monster fight with an Avoral Cr 9 while he is a level 11 fighter. (example) The Avoral has DR silver (easily fixed) and is quite a challenge for him, but not too difficult if the fighter is an archer and manages to have a decent will save. Now, once he has this guy as an ally, the Avoral can heal him for almost 70hp in a turn, Dispell magic, See invisible, Has 25 spell resistance, Flys, True-Sees, Casts offensively... He is an excelent anti-caster and support ally. (heal, SR and counterspell) Now, this Avoreal would foil most of the spellcaster's plans, as much as a heavy melee companion (Tony) disrupts melee opponents. This tournament will boil down to Rock, Scissors, Paper Allies. Although this is great strategy, I thought we tried to match characters, not pokemons. |
| sshuit02-18-04, 05:24 AM | @ll I'm not seriously suggesting that we ban all allies. What I'm saying is that the way allies are being handled now is unfair to some classes and builds. I also think that allies are becoming more important than character builds. Although the intent is not to nerf any build requiring a mount or animal ally, when your ally is arguably MORE powerful than the gladiator or pretty much doubles your gladiator's power then maybe we're allowing too much. sshuit |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-18-04, 05:35 AM | Originally posted by Arstimis Sorry for the irritating consistency...but i would like an answer You've recieved the answers several times now. <sigh> NO! On the allies issue: I was always against EXTRA allies. (ie, those not granted by class features or that you couldn't purchased through the MM/pbh.) So you'll find no ally here when it comes to the ally issue. Kelek has made it to 11th lvl without so much the use of his familiar (stays in his pocket), and still has a lot of potential to climb higher in ranks. I don't see the big deal. Keep the system as it is, all monstrous allies (if they die) need to be re-fought and paid for, simple. Don't make it more complicated than it already is by instituting a new set of home rules. Personally, i think they should be done away with, but that's just me. The arena should be to test builds, no cheese/whine parties. If you want an ally, good, then buy one. Those in the MM with price listings are there for the taking. And don't give me that crap about, "well with only 40/50 hp they die so fast" argument. I say tough bananas, then you better do something to protect him or kill your opponent faster. Just my 4,506,895 cp. Tellish |
| Tharkos02-18-04, 05:47 AM | Originally posted by MotherBast On the matter of monster fights. I too am seeing this desterbing trend. It seems that if you haven't won a monster fight yet, then you might as well not even compet at the double digit levels of the arean. Brackin has no means of gaining any sort of alie. No matter how much I min/max Brackin, he will always be at a disadvantage becasue his CHA is two low for leadership, monks gain no class companion and HA is not a class skill, and he can't animate dead. So, he is forever doomed to be destroyed by the classes that can gain powerful allies. For instance, Brackin's CR will always be = to his level. Bruno's CR at the moment is higher than his level, due to his undead companion. His CR is actually his level +2, give or take a bit. So any fight Bruno has with a character of the same level without an undead companion is actually a fight aginst a foe of lower CR than himself, but he gets the same exp/reward as if he defeated a foe of the same CR. Meanwhile, the other guy, who is 2 CRs less than Bruno, if he somehow manages to win, gets exp/reward only for a creature of his own CR. I don't think eliminating allies is the fix for this, however. Instead, I belive the "fights based on level" system should simply be modified to a "fights based on CR" system. Nothing else would change. Your character would still get gold equal to the level he gains, to keep his CR in the propper place, but he would fight opponits of equal CR instead of equal level. This would also fix the low level problem we have been seeing with Heavy Warhorses being used to win a gladiators way through the first 2 or 3 fights. A level 2 gladiator and a CR 2 War Horse would be CR 4. After winning the first fight, they would remain CR 4, as CR 3 and CR 2 together are still a CR 4 fight, but the gladiator would gain gold and experience to now be level 3. After winning his second fight, he is now CR 4, and the horse still CR 2, which makes him in total a CR 5 encounter. After a few victories, the horse no longer affects his CR at all. Wizzies, Sorc, Druids, and Pallys allies are all class features, and are already counted in the CR of the Character. This would server to return these compainons to there rightfull places at the top of the alie list, as they are basicly "free", and don't add to the CR of the gladiator. This would also ensure that builds that don't rely on allis (which are becomming incressingly rare at high levels) remain comepative at high levels. Let me just take the gladiators at level 10 and up. Of all of them, the most successful would be Bruno, Harvy 1, Iron, and Jindl. Out of the 4, 2 use undead, 1 uses a handled animal, and one is a druid. The druid was domanating untill the Undead and Handled Animals hit the scean, and has sence lost to the undead users. There is also a sneaky Rogue/wiz/assain, and 3 monks. You will notice no pure melee class has made it to this level that isen't a monk. The monks have made it this far by defeating the formaly very popular wiz/sorcs, and each other. Now, the wiz/sorc has the undead, and if he dosen't then he is defeated by the undead or animal commanding cleric. I really think the CR fix is a step in the right direction twords reaquiring balance in the arena. On a different note, we have flat out broken the rules concerning many aspects of the arena's "post-fight" precedures for getting gladiators ready for the next week's battle. I see no reason not to break them equaly for all and allow the revival of undead. If it were an undead gladiator, we would do it for them. I was offline a few days, but when I read this post by MB I had an idea which might solve that "problem" about some people having powerful cohorts and some not: We could make the duels according to the CR of the team, which means using the CR of the character modified by the power of the cohort. That factor would have to be defined by us. The amount of money would NOT change because that is connected to the level of the character (the individual) and not the team. Thus people could "jump CRs" by getting a monster ally which makes them much more powerful. I hope this idea hasnt been posted in the last 3 pages of this thread so I am repeating stuff ... thats something I need to do still. EDIT: Bleh ... MB already suggested "my" idea in the post but I didnt read it thoroughly enough ... * sigh * |
| Moherajikuyx02-18-04, 06:28 AM | Monks MB - requisites != effects. I'm sad about this - I tried the same for Rito but I felt bad already. Now I know the rules better. Those who do that in the minmax forums or anywhere else don't yet, or they cheat. Arstimis - I agree with you: INA(IUS) enhances IUS. Sadly IUS doesn't satisfy the requisite of INA in itself (unless you prove this wrong, and your quote doesn't since it talks about effects, not requisites). Nice try, even though not new ;) Allies Good! I thought no one was against the free replace of allies. I thought so because until yesterday no one brought it up as a matter, even if me and Jindl repeatedly talked about it. Of course I respect the others' opinion and I guess we should vote about it. I like MB's proposal principle, sadly the CR is such a ridiculous rating system that things would get even more broken. MB, Iron challenges Brackin to show that it wasn't thanks to the mount that he won! I like the new idea, I think it's sshuit's, that the arena should have a shift back towards the 1 vs. 1. How to make this is a difficult thing to plan, though. I thusly open this pair of polls. 1. Would you allow the free fix of dead allies, treating them as equipment, or you prefer that they're paid back again/fought again in a monster fight/...? 2. Do you favour a shift of the arena towards less enphasis on the allies, to address the evident balance problem? (yes/no/let things as are) You'll notice that the last one is quite generic. We have to decide what the majority wants. Sorry if this will take some time... Just bear with me and let's see. Obviously, if you want to go towards MB's or Cat's proposal you should vote no. Sir Cridion - good bye and come back soon! |
| Tharkos02-18-04, 06:37 AM | I dont think making allies available to everyone for a cheap price as Caterane suggested (2000 gold is cheap for such an undead dragon IMO) is the right way to go. Adjusting the "level" of the team to the true CR would be much easier than everyone makes it I think. I dont have any problem with people "jumping levels" because they got an allie ... they didnt gain a level and thats the important thing. Their own character is less important in that team then, but the power is still high enough. There have to be different categories for cohorts / allies because there are different types available: - undead (no brain and need to be directed), - animals (low intelligence but need to be directed as well), - intelligent (self functioning) allies such as a Pegasus or a leadership cohort. The first two categories arent that much different, but animals have the advantage that they can "interpret" an order and that they have a sense of self-preservation (thus probably preventing flying into a wall and such stuff) and they can be "recycled" for the next fight. The third category might not be very powerful in itself at first due to low levels of the cohort, but an independently thinking character is a very powerful thing later on ... People are afraid of Jindl because he can summon tons of monsters, two druids could summon even more monsters. So what would be a "fair" ratio for these cohorts ? The factor needs to be figured out by the CR of the monster. Suggestions: - MODIFIER: +1 CR if it can fly / burrow / climb naturally, - MODIFIER: -1 CR every for up to 5 levels (-1 levels 1-5, -2 levels 6-10, -3 ...) for level-based cohorts because they DONT get magic items and those are part of a characters CR, - undead: +1 CR added to the gladiator for every 4 CR of the monster, - animals: +1 CR added to the gladiator for every 3 CR of the animal, - level based / intelligent cohorts: +1 CR added to the gladiator for every 2 CR of the cohort. Flying and other special movement categories add another "dimension" to the cohort because if it couldnt do it they are made useless too easily. Intelligent Cohorts with level adjustment and/or monster HDs need to add those to the level to figure out the true level. Examples: - Warhorse: +1 CR, - Nightingale: +2 CR (+1 from CR and +1 due to flying), - Nox: +2 CR (not sure about the "true CR" of this advanced monster but CR 3 or 4 at most => +1 from CR and +1 due to flying), - Pegasus: +2 CR (+1 from CR and +1 due to flying), - 8th level leadership classed cohort (non-flying): +2 (+4 from 8 levels, -2 due to no magic items of its own) This method is JUST AN EXAMPLE and could still be modified by other factors. There is a problem with leveled cohorts because they can actually have their CR adjustment lowered if this formula is used unadjusted (level 10 => +3 CR, level 11 CR => +2 CR) but that can be fixed by applying common sense and saying that the factor cant be lowered. |
| Tharkos02-18-04, 06:45 AM | Unless you plan on putting these questions in the polls thread here are my answers: Originally posted by Moherajikuyx 1. Would you allow the free fix of dead allies, treating them as equipment, or you prefer that they're paid back again/fought again in a monster fight/...? Paying for resurrections and no reuse of animate dead corpses. "Free" allies such as a druids animal companion need to be resurrected as well IMO. Originally posted by Moherajikuyx 2. Do you favour a shift of the arena towards less enphasis on the allies, to address the evident balance problem? (yes/no/let things as are) YES |
| LLMadCow02-18-04, 06:57 AM | @Magagumo - Zorander Brogaden needs to be updated so that I am guarnteed that Herrix Ignatius will not have to sit out this week. Please! Thanks LL |
| Caterane02-18-04, 08:00 AM | Now, once he has this guy as an ally, the Avoral can heal him for almost 70hp in a turn, Dispell magic, See invisible, Has 25 spell resistance, Flys, True-Sees, Casts offensively... Then we have to make sure the Avoral costs some 5000 Gold which is wasted if it dies, and that`s only 1 charge away. I dont think making allies available to everyone for a cheap price as Caterane suggested (2000 gold is cheap for such an undead dragon IMO) is the right way to go. then make it 20000, what ever, we can regulate the price. Adjusting the "level" of the team to the true CR would be much easier than everyone makes it I think. I dont have any problem with people "jumping levels" because they got an allie ... The idea is not a bad one but I don`t completely trust the CR system (already had bad surprises when I picked monsters according to CR in my campaign) and it looks like too much work and complicates things. It will also be a big change, too big a change just to try out. We have to calculate every gladiator after every fight, and after every new ally he gets. That`s all extra work. The range on the symbol of sleep is greater than the range of Summon monster, so the summons should have had to make saves as soon as they appeared. Johan was invisible, the symbol triggered on sight. |
| LLMadCow02-18-04, 08:10 AM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Allies Good! I thought no one was against the free replace of allies. I thought so because until yesterday no one brought it up as a matter, even if me and Jindl repeatedly talked about it. Of course I respect the others' opinion and I guess we should vote about it. ... I like the new idea, I think it's sshuit's, that the arena should have a shift back towards the 1 vs. 1. How to make this is a difficult thing to plan, though. I thusly open this pair of polls. 1. Would you allow the free fix of dead allies, treating them as equipment, or you prefer that they're paid back again/fought again in a monster fight/...? 2. Do you favour a shift of the arena towards less enphasis on the allies, to address the evident balance problem? (yes/no/let things as are) You'll notice that the last one is quite generic. We have to decide what the majority wants. Sorry if this will take some time... Just bear with me and let's see. Obviously, if you want to go towards MB's or Cat's proposal you should vote no. Sir Cridion - good bye and come back soon! [/B] What are we trying to do? One step forward, two steps back? Remove all allies? Why not do away with ALL CLASS ABILITIES and we can play Adepts, Aristocrats, Commoners, Experts and Warriors? That's the ticket! I tell you this - If you have been here less than 6 months, haven't read EVERY SINGLE POST in the Fights and Discussions, sit down! I've been here since day 1! I was in the previous arena too! I've seen all that we have been through. The more restrictive everything is made, the less creative everything is made. "My Expert is wearing a BLUE Cloak. What about you?" "Nope, my expert is different. He is wearing a Green cloak!" Stop this silly vote! Don't be so extreme! If nothing else let things stay as they are while we discuss the possibility of ensuring balancing issues and reform. Reform I say! No one would get anywhere if instead of fixing something they started from scratch! Some of you who are shouting DOWN WITH ALLIES must remember that you have not been through the fire. You have not seen what I have seen, lived the Arena through all of the tumultuous events! I have fought and argued and voted and spent a lot of my personal time to make this a better place. There are those of us who are doing other things for the arena that goes above and beyond what you currently see. Mo puts a lot of work into this, but there are others. Caterane and I are working on projects. My voice is heard not because I am loud, but because I am experienced and I speak with the voice of reason. Throw down your pitchforks and torches and sit down at the table of debate. Learn to debate your side. Maybe we open a temporary thread for such hotly debated topics. Mo, Cat or I could open a new Thread for the discussion. We have a few first posts taken up and then we track everything. Keep a running log of the pros and cons. Cat will represent one side and I volunteer for the other. Why not try this out and delay the vote for a bit. Delay the vote, please. Go find my new thread shortly... |
| Caterane02-18-04, 08:18 AM | I see big troubles coming! I fear the vote will go in favor of no allies/only class allies. Not because this is the best solution but because it sounds like the easiest. Therefore many of the newbies may be tempted to vote on no allies because of this. Others may just offhandly write it off instead of taking time to explore it. The arena began with the limited ally rule and we had to expand it because it didn`t work well. It was not balanced. But the arena developed and grew. We learned by trying out; we got experience over time how to balance things out, we made mistakes and corrected them, but we steadily improved. It was hard-earned work! And now we should throw this development and experience - gathered over half a year - away in a single week??? We will fall back into Stone Age over night if this gets through. On top of that we kill many builds, we close the door to many options gathered in long months thus taking away much of the fun, and we will just start again from the beginning ...until we are again where we are now. Sounds like the fall of Rome to me, followed by the Dark Age. If you don`t like Motherbast/Tharkos CR-idea or mine mercenary one then let us better search new options than to radically eleminate allies ...and bomb half the arena away. Stop the vote! |
| Caterane02-18-04, 08:33 AM | I had a more radical idea in mind but held my tongue. After reading LL's last post I want to make a bold step. Let the Senior mods decide! The reason is that many of the Newbie`s weren`t around and didn`t see the development the arena took. They lack experience. Others vote absentmindly "no allies". Imagine someone who is on the board once a week and loses no thoughts about this all week but still makes a vote. This vote counts as much as a vote from someone who inests much time and thought into this. It will still be a democracy (or a Moheracracy when thinking of the pre-mem issue) but like in a democracy the senior mods represent a party; politicians who are much more familiar with the internal issues than the little worker at the tavern table. I would say let`s limit the voting system to the senior mods who are puting much time into this and be assured that we do everything possible to make it balanced and fun at once. |
| Tharkos02-18-04, 09:11 AM | I have had another idea: The law of the minimum which would mean that you only get to take your ally (including mounts) into the arena if the opponent has an ally as well. This would bring equality into the fights again and its a very simple solution as well. If you cant win without your ally then you probably should think again about your tacitics IMO. Although some classes get powerful allies as class abilities I doubt they make up the majority of their power. The reasoning comes from looking at typical medieval jousting competitions ... both competitors were starting with the same stuff and the fights were either lance-duels with both competitors mounted on horses and armed with a lance or both men on foot armed with whatever weapons they chose. You could become unmounted, but the starting conditions were equal for both. |
| Caterane02-18-04, 09:15 AM | Then - if I fight a mounted charger/archer specialist I just go in without horse and destroy his whole character concept. Bad idea. |
| Bishop the Bardican02-18-04, 09:24 AM | My vote is for mounts from the MM with listed prices and allies that come from class features only. If you are a ranger/paladin/sorcerer you can have all three animals outside of the arena, but you must choose only one to bring into the fight. No Leadership, No Mercenaries (MERCENARIES! in an arena? I mean, if this is all about numbers and not about storytelling and fun, let's just start doing algebra problems.) Monster fights for cohorts? Come on. Monster fights should be spice for the fans not tactical coups. Free resurrection on the above creatures and I think you have a PC-focused arena that has the credentials to call itself CORE. |
| Caterane02-18-04, 09:24 AM | Has the Harvester now go Nightmare hunting? The 2nd Harvester challenges Kiri'endelas!! Ebelin and Vandaeris will sit out in case I have to do a monster fight. |
| Myrridin02-18-04, 09:27 AM | Malkoth challenges Angosh. |
| Arstimis02-18-04, 10:01 AM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Monks MB - requisites != effects. I'm sad about this - I tried the same for Rito but I felt bad already. Now I know the rules better. Those who do that in the minmax forums or anywhere else don't yet, or they cheat. Arstimis - I agree with you: INA(IUS) enhances IUS. Sadly IUS doesn't satisfy the requisite of INA in itself (unless you prove this wrong, and your quote doesn't since it talks about effects, not requisites). Nice try, even though not new ;) IMPROVED NATURAL ATTACK [GENERAL] Prerequisite: Natural weapon, base attack bonus +4. Benefit: Choose one of the creature’s natural attack forms. The damage for this natural weapon increases by one step, as if the creature’s size had increased by one category: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6. A weapon or attack that deals 1d10 points of damage increases as follows: 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8. But...what is a natural weapon? A creatures body part that deals damage in combat. Natural weapons include teeth, claws, horns, tails, and other appendages. Well..if you look at the definition of natural weapon, I am sure you could safetly assume that a monks fist (appendage) is the creatures body part and deals damage in combat. Therefore it fits the definition of natural weapon perfectly. How can anyone disagree with this? Edit: Tellish: Oh, and i agree with what you said earlier about allies. If they arent your class feature, or there isnt a price in the MM then tough. This in no way restricts any builds or classes |
| Caterane02-18-04, 10:14 AM | @Artis: My **** is an appendage too but does not qualify for a natural weapon!! Neither does a human`s hand. Natural weapons are claws and bites, things with which animals and other predators FIGHT NATURALLY. It doesn`t matter if the monk has learned to fight with his hands; it`s still NOT A NATURAL WEAPON!! You can now write the same stuff on and on until judgement day but you`ll receive always the same answer. |
| Arstimis02-18-04, 10:21 AM | Originally posted by Caterane @Artis: My **** is an appendige too but does not qualify for a natural weapon!! Neither does a human`s hand. Natural weapons are claws and bites, things with which animals and other predators FIGHT NATURALLY. It doesn`t matter if the monk has learned to fight with his hands; it`s still NOT A NATURAL WEAPON!! You can now write the same stuff on and on until judgement day but you`ll receive always the same answer. Thats not what the definition of Natural Weapon is. I am just quoting exactly what a natural weapon is. If you an deal damage in combat with your **** then i guess its a natural weapon. by your definition a monks fist must be a natural weapon.~ "Natural weapons are claws and bites, things with which animals and other predators FIGHT NATURALLY''~ A monks fist is a weapon, or thing as you put it, and he is a predator and he fights quite naturally with his fists...i agree with your definition too. A baby animal isnt born knowing how to fight with thier claws anymore than a baby human is. Both have to be learned and practiced to be any good |
| Caterane02-18-04, 10:24 AM | NO! |
| Pitlords02-18-04, 10:26 AM | ¡Señores y señoras! ¡Cuidado! ¡Los PAIRINGS están en opera! As there's a lot of people unready, I'm going to correct and add pairings later. But this is the last time! We're finally getting back to wednesday pairings and we're going to keep the pace from now on! |
| Moherajikuyx02-18-04, 10:29 AM | Originally posted by Arstimis But...what is a natural weapon? It's rather simple. It's something listed among the Full Attack entry of the MM. Cat I think Arstimis has the right of pretending to understand fully. Arst I think you might want to continue this further in a more appropriate forum perhaps? |
| Caterane02-18-04, 10:33 AM | . |
| Caterane02-18-04, 10:34 AM | Yeah, the Pokemon board! @Arti: I hope you didn`t take any offense. I meant none. Just wanted you to SHUT UP!! LOL |
| LLMadCow02-18-04, 10:42 AM | Well, they say 'What's good for the goose is good for the gander" and if this applies to the logical (and illogical) thinking at WotC, consider this... Magic Fang Transmutation Level: Drd1, Rgr1 Components: V, S, DF Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Target: Living creature touched Duration: 1 min./level Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless) Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) Magic Fang gives one natural weapon of the subject a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls. The spell can affect a slam attack, fist, bite, or other natural weapon. (The spell does not change an unarmed strike's damage from nonlethal damage to lethal damage.) Pay close attention to the words: The spell can affect a ... fist ... or other natural weapon. So, there you have it folks! The fist is a natural weapon! If your **** can cause damage, and I guess some could, then go for it! If the DM says it does 1d2, GREAT! Let there be NO MORE DEBATE ABOUT THE STUPID NATURAL WEAPONS! NEWBIES - READ ALL OF THE OLD POSTS! YES! ALL 5498 OF THEM! DO NOT BE SO POMPOUS AS TO PRESUME WE DO NOT KNOW WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT. Despite all of this ranting and raving, and that is what it is, understand that we 'Senior Mods' fight and argue too. I take the time to put Caterane into his place, Mo takes the time to put me in my place and Caterane takes the time to put Mo in his place. It all works out in the long run. You should see some of what goes on through ICQ and AIM. Not to mention or PMs and E-Mails. There is a lot going on behind the scenes and we do not know everything. I just see so much of what is going on and seriously doubt that anyone has read the whole thread if the jumped in anything later than the 2000 mark. STOP THE VOTE! |
| Arstimis02-18-04, 10:45 AM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx It's rather simple. It's something listed among the Full Attack entry of the MM. Cat I think Arstimis has the right of pretending to understand fully. Arst I think you might want to continue this further in a more appropriate forum perhaps? well, the definition I put after I asked that question was the definition from the phb's glossary, but I am even starting to annoy myself with this argument. Heh One last question about this....don't worry.......what would be an appropriate forum |
| Moherajikuyx02-18-04, 10:52 AM | LL, what's the primary source for natural weapons? The dmg, or the MM? Arst - Skills and feats (http://boards1.wizards.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=19) concerning IUS and monster manual (http://boards1.wizards.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=25) concerning natural weapons. I think you'll find anything but keep in mind that the natural weapons (as defined in the MM glossary) are only the ones that appear under any monster entry full attack row. No humanoid has natural weapons; giants have slam attacks with the fists (everything returns :D) About the vote - ... bah. |
| Jindl02-18-04, 11:21 AM | FYI- For those of you who are wondering who the senior mod's are, the list includes (in order of appearance on this board): Moherajikuyx, Snarkhunter, LLMadCow, Jindl, Magagumo, Caterane, Tellish_of_Ket. These 7 senior mod's have all been on this thread since the 4th round of pairings (or earlier). That means they started around post 200 or earlier on this thread (which now has a post count of over 5000). RE- Unarmed Strike ?= Natural Weapon Personally, I am of the opinion that an unarmed strike is a natural weapon. I don't think its too unbalancing to allow monk's (and others) to qualify for improved natural attack. I mean, its not like the monks are dominating the arena. So, I would vote to reverse our earlier (non voted on) decision. Open up improved natural attack for unarmed strikes. LLMadCow's post of the magic fang text is the deciding factor for me, since it clearly refers to "fist" as a natural attack. The reason no humanoid has unarmed strike listed as part of their monster entry, is that they all use weapons... -Jindl |
| JonahBlack02-18-04, 11:38 AM | Originally posted by Caterane I had a more radical idea in mind but held my tongue. After reading LL's last post I want to make a bold step. Let the Senior mods decide! The reason is that many of the Newbie`s weren`t around and didn`t see the development the arena took. They lack experience. Others vote absentmindly "no allies". Imagine someone who is on the board once a week and loses no thoughts about this all week but still makes a vote. This vote counts as much as a vote from someone who inests much time and thought into this. It will still be a democracy (or a Moheracracy when thinking of the pre-mem issue) but like in a democracy the senior mods represent a party; politicians who are much more familiar with the internal issues than the little worker at the tavern table. I would say let`s limit the voting system to the senior mods who are puting much time into this and be assured that we do everything possible to make it balanced and fun at once. I like this idea, with a small change. What if the Senior Mods hash up something that seems fair, then present it to us (possibly in another thread), so we can debate it, and ultimately vote on it. Then, if we vote it down, then they can go back, revise it, and come back for a new vote. Additionally, other people can submit a plan to the senior mods for review, but only the senoir mods can put it forth for a vote, with any changes they see fit. Thoughts? |
| Ethendril02-18-04, 11:40 AM | Allies... I know I've suggested this before, but what about a house rule (some will hate this) that puts ALL allies in line with the Leadership feat (all cohorts would have an ECL at least 2 less than the gladiators)? EVERYONE could get an ally in some way (class ability, feat, spell, or even mercenaries...). The nice thing would be that EVERYONE is equal, and it would put the emphasis back on the gladiators. I know it's a house rule, but it solves the problem in my mind. -Ethendril @Cat: I just got on the boards and got your PM. It appears that pairings are already underway, so I can't accept your challenge...besides, who wants to fight a Harvester, anyway? I like all your cold iron, though.:D |
| Moherajikuyx02-18-04, 11:47 AM | Originally posted by Jindl The reason no humanoid has unarmed strike listed as part of their monster entry, is that they all use weapons... Wrong, check any giant :) I agree that the monk could have a power up in the arena, but not with this kind of houserule in my opinion. *edit* Btw... PAIRINGS DONE! People don't change stuff anymore, moderators check if the sheet is changed referring to this post's date and time! HAVE FUN PEOPLE!!! |
| Jindl02-18-04, 11:52 AM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Wrong, check any giant :) I agree that the monk could have a power up in the arena, but not with this kind of houserule in my opinion. Heh, giants are not humanoids (though they are humanoid shaped). :D I think LL's post provides enough support in the rules for us to take a look at it. I know some people have the opinion that it is not a natural weapon, but LL and I have both stated that we do think it is. Perhaps a little senior mod discussion could clear it up. Lets see what Tellish, Caterane, Snark, and Mag have to say. I know Cat is against it. But the other 3 haven't voiced an opinion. Let's see what they say. -Jindl |
| Moherajikuyx02-18-04, 11:53 AM | I don't like the "only elder mods can propose" thing much, that really sounds more like a gerontocracy than a democracy to me. |
| Pitlords02-18-04, 12:00 PM | doh... |
| Moherajikuyx02-18-04, 12:02 PM | Well but that proves my point Jindl: giants have both slam attacks and manufactured weapons listed, humanoids have only manufactured weapons listed; as the MM glossary says that to find natural weapons you have to refer to the MM entry, we conclude that humanoids have no natural weapons, while giants have them (fists that do slam attacks). So, LL's spell quote is probably referring to giant fists; even if this is not so, that is not the primary source, so in case of a contradiction it's to be ignored in favour of the MM. |
| Caterane02-18-04, 12:37 PM | @Cat: I just got on the boards and got your PM. It appears that pairings are already underway, so I can't accept your challenge...besides, who wants to fight a Harvester, anyway? Great. Donkey refused. Kiri refused. Grimlock has already been fought. Kiowen bumped away. :mad: I really thought that I had the Harvester II active so I had Vandaeris and Ebelin sit out but now that he doesn`t fight can I activate Vandaeris instead who fights Clio? I didn`t edit his sheet for a week now so that shouldn`t be a problem. Natural weapons: My point is that natural weapons are weapons by nature; the primary defense system which is intelligence/weapons for humans. I know you quoted some passages from the MM or the PHB but it isn`t too difficult to check 1000 pages of rules and then pick any line that suits you as reference. WotC are also humans only and they didn`t check every single of the 1000000 words. When they wrote fist they surely didn`t imagine that this could cause problems; there are far worser mistakes in the books. Thus I would say in the spirit of the rules they meant this feat for monsters with claws and such only, and not for monks, else it would be written in the PHB in the monk feat tree. |
| barrel_master02-18-04, 12:44 PM | I'm against the CR thing as it would take a lot of work on moh's part to actually implement and check out. I'll finaly begin voting again on this issue and for the record I'm for allies but I also think that allies who you had to fight to get have to be 'aquired' again in the same manner after they die. |
| Caterane02-18-04, 12:50 PM | Yes Barrel, that is so. As you can see the Harvester fights the Cauchemare again. I just said everyone or no one. Anna, Jindl vs the : Caterane Anna vs Caterane? Don`t even think you last a split-second! I have the Vengeful Gaze of Mod!! BTW: If anyone wants to give me his fights I`ll gladly take them. |
| Jindl02-18-04, 01:08 PM | @Cat - That's supposed to read: Anna, Jindl vs the Gorgon: Caterane. Just a typo on Mo's part. I'll get you tactics later tonight, so you can review / go ahead with the fight early (if you want to do it early). -Jindl |
| Caterane02-18-04, 01:14 PM | As you wish. I`ll run it as soon as I get tactics. Mo has a date. I would say that means he`s off with his Pokemon group but who knows... |
| Myrridin02-18-04, 01:29 PM | We need more new people to respond to fight challenges here...I want to fight. :) |
| Arstimis02-18-04, 01:29 PM | @Caterane: so you don't have to look through all the books to find the definition I posted of natural weapons, it is in the PHB glossary. My friend, sintius said he is sorry, and has seemed to forget to change the topic of his sheet to ready for 18/2...but he is quite ready. If anyone would be willing to moderate, and you guys would allow it, he would like to fight silencius |
| Tharkos02-18-04, 01:33 PM | Originally posted by Caterane Then - if I fight a mounted charger/archer specialist I just go in without horse and destroy his whole character concept. Bad idea. We could say that you cant "switch modes" if you have an ally but that you MUST take it if you have one. This rule would just fix the fights for those characters that dont have any ally back to the "1 on 1" encounter. If you have a mounted archer in a regular campaign do you start complaining to your DM about not being able to use your mount inside a cave ? |
| Caterane02-18-04, 01:46 PM | My friend, sintius said he is sorry, and has seemed to forget to change the topic of his sheet to ready for 18/2...but he is quite ready. If anyone would be willing to moderate, and you guys would allow it, he would like to fight silencius Me!! Me!! I mod it! @Tharkos: But this is no campaign and we shouldn`t try to simulate one because this is doomed to fail. It`s an arena where gladiators fight each other; a fantasy arena where not only humans fight but also their monstrous companion allies. I don`t like the CR based roster idea because it is too difficult to track. I don`t like the "if you have an ally and the other not you can`t bring him in but if it was announced you can but if not you can`t" idea for the same reason. I want an easy simple rule which is clear, overviewable and regulatable at once: mercenaries. |
| Arstimis02-18-04, 01:57 PM | I think tellish had the best solution to the allies problem. You can only get allies that the MM has a price for....this definately won't ruin any builds. I would expand on it to allow class granted allies. Maybe allies from leadership. I do not think allies from skills and spells are acceptable There shouldn't be any free resurections for any allies. Allies give a big advantages, and they shouldn't be free. For classes that can get a new class allie for free, they should have to pay for the ressurection of the dead one, before they get a new one |
| Caterane02-18-04, 02:03 PM | @Artismis: We...had...the...same...discussion...mon ths...ago. I and LLMadCow explained it now in long and hard mails. Either you don´t read them or you just ignore them. I can only repeat myself again and again: It didn`t work <-- "didn`t" = past. Means: we already experienced this. |
| Jindl02-18-04, 02:08 PM | Did Arstimis just post something that was not related to Improved Natural Attack for monks? WTF? [ :D ] @Myrridin: Pairings posted on the gladiator's thread. Alric, Myrridin vs. Lance, cellardweller: Jindl Malkoth, Myrridin vs. Aku, Jindl: Tellish_of_Ket When Mo says pairings are done, check the gladiators thread, and you will see your matchups and who the moderator is (the moderator is listed after the ":" ). The moderator's names are linked above the pairings, clicking on the link should open an email for you to send your tactics (though you'll need to replace the (at) in the email address with a "@" ). You can also PM tactics if you don't want to use email. Send tactics before Friday, and no editing the sheets after pairings. The moderator will take your tactics and run the fight over the weekend. -Jindl |
| Ethendril02-18-04, 02:08 PM | My other post on Allies was burried at the bottom of the last page, so I'll say it again in case it got lost. What if we put a cap on allies that in the same as the leadership feat (all allies will be no higher than character ECL -2)? Then apply the same rules to all allies (free raising or no raising, whatever). Then give everyone access to allies (through spells, class abilities, feats, mercenaries, whatever). But everyone has the same cap of ECL -2. It's a house rule, but it levels the playing field for everyone. -Ethendril |
| Jindl02-18-04, 02:12 PM | Originally posted by Caterane Great. Donkey refused. Kiri refused. Grimlock has already been fought. Kiowen bumped away. :mad: I really thought that I had the Harvester II active so I had Vandaeris and Ebelin sit out but now that he doesn`t fight can I activate Vandaeris instead who fights Clio? I didn`t edit his sheet for a week now so that shouldn`t be a problem. They're all just scared. Actually, if you reactivate Vandaeris, you would face Babar (since he is currently getting a doesn't fight credit for # of pc's). Maybe Mo would step up to the challenge? I'll moderate the fight for you, if you'll take over my level 11 fight. -Jindl |
| Caterane02-18-04, 02:13 PM | Ha! Now that`s a good idea! |
| Arstimis02-18-04, 02:31 PM | A couple months ago I wasn't paying attention to the boards much. If that idea didn't work, then I think Ethndril's idea is pretty good too. I still think no ally should be freely resurected. That is giving an ally an ability that should be reserved only for gladiators. We don't allow items to be returned for free, ecept for sundering, which I don't think should be repaired for free.....but that's just want I think, so feel free to ignore it |
| Caterane02-18-04, 02:43 PM | @Jindl: Deal. @Arti: In the beginning - when items weren`t repaired for free - the fight focused on damaging the gladiator economically above the current match by sundering, killing and destroying everything in his possession so that he has to replace it. No one cared if he lost but destroyed half his opponoments equipment; it was still a victory. Everyone did this and everyone will do it again. That is one thing we experienced as very very bad but you just suggested to re-enter this rule again. I hope this example shows you to trust me when I say it`s the same thing goes for the allies. LLMadCow said it clearly enough: trust us! We have more experience with the arena, we care for it, and we`re doing our best to make it balanced. |
| kattattack2202-18-04, 03:09 PM | @sshuit - tatics sent for Ony vs. Ilene via e-mail |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-18-04, 03:14 PM | Originally posted by Jindl I think LL's post provides enough support in the rules for us to take a look at it. I know some people have the opinion that it is not a natural weapon, but LL and I have both stated that we do think it is. Perhaps a little senior mod discussion could clear it up. Lets see what Tellish, Caterane, Snark, and Mag have to say. I know Cat is against it. But the other 3 haven't voiced an opinion. Let's see what they say. -Jindl I did post my opinion earlier. But with this many replies, it can get lost in the shuffle. I do not believe a monk (without natural attacks listed in his entry) is allowed to take the feat. There are many instances where a pc does get natural attacks, and they are listed. Dragon disciple being amongst the biggest. It clearly states that you GET natural weapons. Not, they become natural weapons for spell/effects. Feats don't qualify as such, and as a result IUA does not GIVE you natural weapons. Such as the Dragon Disciple's natural attacks would benefit from magic fang but would NOT benefit from magic weapon. Whereas the monks IUA benefit from both. (spell/effect) Allies: Leave it the way it is. Don't make it more broken then it already is. You lose an ally, re-pay/re-fight/re-whatever to get him back. End of story. If forced to put to a vote, then everyone knows my opinion. I'd vote to just what you can buy (mm/phb) and acquire through feats. End-of-story. This way, the focus goes back to the gladiator build and not cheese-meistering with monstrous ally abuse. So leave it as is, or go back to the dark ages. That's all that should be considered. NOT augmenting allies/mercenaries. Reason, is there are too many loop-hole addicts on these threads and abuse would be rampant. Tellish |
| Ethendril02-18-04, 03:34 PM | @LLMadcow: Final tactics sent for Kiri'elendas. |
| Myrridin02-18-04, 03:39 PM | @Jindl - Tactics sent for fight with Lance @Tellish - Tactics sent for fight with Aku |
| Bishop the Bardican02-18-04, 03:40 PM | I would like to run a second character and would happily mod a fight a week to be able to do this. Do I need to wait or can I post a second character. I understand if I need to wait. Also, someone mentioned that there were more moderators wanting fights than fights. If this is true, then I would be willing to not mod. My purpose is a second character, not points. What should I do? |
| Magagumo02-18-04, 03:57 PM | Whoo boy *sweats* This is why I should always check the boards regularly right before Wednesday.. Hey Moh, once again, I forgot to update Zorander (he didn't fight last week, so I figured there was nothing to change). Mind letting him and Zippy duke it out? I just want him to level, whether because of a bump or because I win... I know some Mods were offering for extra fights.. (Just don't forget his ability to Hide in Plain Sight ;)) On Monk's- I agree that monk's fists are natural weapons for the purpose of spells and efefcts, and I do think one could apply the feat, but I believe that it then transforms into a one attack per round situation (in order to deal bonus damage). Cat's right, you can only swing once with a natural attack, they finally even fixed the elementals to not have iterative atatcks (but 2 slams instead). Thusly, if the monk wants to get more than one hit in a round, he couldn't use the bonus damage of the feat. Just my take on it. Re Allies: Keep em as is, I always hear complaining, but few people honestly have researched it enough. I agree that we, the Elder Mods, have had a lot more experience with this. As others have said, we've been through the whole debate over how to bring back allies, who deserves them, what could do done.. etc. We've seen that familiars are less useful (though Polymorphing is nice) in melee combat, but do not forget the awesome power of Bruno and Tommy in their early levels. We say that cohorts are far weaker than a skeletal gaint- True, but that giant is entirely unthinking, and I know even Hanz (may he rest in peace)'s half-orc had greater self-awareness then him. Our builds are very powerful, and it is easy to claim that one is more so than the other, but recall that when we created this Arena, we realized that not all classes are created equal. What we have instead created is not a level playing field, but one that shifts weekly, allowing for some to gain an advantage over others as they progress along. Well Rito ever be able to fight squarely with Tony? No, but then again, Bruno can barely hit him with spell effects. Does this make them equal? Not at all, but I do know that Bilo can eviscerate Bruno at the same time. Buff clerics & druids dominate, if given enough time, while the spontaneous monks and rogues try to leap on them ASAP. This is for fun, not rules-lawyering, no combatant has ever made it to the top (13th level) completely unscathed. There have been errors in fights, but even without them, all of us have fallen to an adversary at sometime (I believe Bruno to be amazingly dangerous, but I count 4 losses on his sheet, and know that none of them could honestly be attributed to a Mod screwing up the fight.) We should always strive to fix imbalances, but let us not become rabid perfectionists (this system's been around for years, and it constantly is house-ruled, errated, etc.) I think class-granted allies are good, I think Leadership cohorts are good, I think acquiring monsters (through Handle Animal and Animate Dead) require a fight to do so. As for mercenaries, I couldn't tell you, but this seems like a cheap trick for dodging Leadership feats. That and I think people will cry when they realize their purchased ally (noticve that we don't free resurrect those types, and rightly so, unless they are familiars) has died, and that they will ened to spend thousands more gold to get them back. I'll be honest, I think Brackin is suffering a bit right now, because the thousands of gold pieces he has placed in potions could have become permanent buff items, Boots of Flying, and other such creations which are not gone at the end of the fight. If we repeat the same habit with these "mercenaries," I can't promise your character won't be seriously derailed when your illusionist wizard is incinerated by an Empowered Fireball, a Horrid Wilting, or bitten in two by an enormous bat, raptor, or Cauchemar. Just one more of my posts to add to the growing "pile" of this board. Notes: I see Iron is fighting me, Moh, is he doing so w/o Atticus then? |
| Jindl02-18-04, 04:14 PM | Originally posted by Magagumo ... but do not forget the awesome power of Bruno and Tommy in their early levels. You must be confused. You meant to say the "awesome power of the Elder and Bubo in their early levels." Originally posted by Magagumo (I believe Bruno to be amazingly dangerous, but I count 4 losses on his sheet, and know that none of them could honestly be attributed to a Mod screwing up the fight.) Really, I count 5 losses for the little gnome. [Hey Mag, I couldn't pass up the opportunity to give you some $&@!.] -Jindl :D |
| Arstimis02-18-04, 04:20 PM | Originally posted by Magagumo On Monk's- I agree that monk's fists are natural weapons for the purpose of spells and efefcts, and I do think one could apply the feat, but I believe that it then transforms into a one attack per round situation (in order to deal bonus damage). Cat's right, you can only swing once with a natural attack, they finally even fixed the elementals to not have iterative atatcks (but 2 slams instead). Thusly, if the monk wants to get more than one hit in a round, he couldn't use the bonus damage of the feat. Just my take on it. if for some reason this feat was allowed, I don't think it would only allow for one attack with big damage, but instead only one weapon being stronger and only one attack with that weapon. Lets say my right hand, so if I attacked twice with flurry only my first attack(right hand) would do the little extra damage..... So, does anyone know If Sintius will get to fight? |
| Magagumo02-18-04, 04:28 PM | And so you see, LL keeps Cat in line, Cat keeps Moh in line, Moh keeps LL in line, and Snark keeps me from strangling Jindl :D (J/K Jindl, you know my tendency to randomly generate facts and numbers from the air... :-P) @Artismis Don't forget that the monk's body is considered his unarmed strike, so you still only get one attack with that (though perhaps Flurry fo Blows would, at least, allow one to get one or two more atatcks with that natural attack. *Shrugs*) |
| Jindl02-18-04, 04:37 PM | Originally posted by Arstimis So, does anyone know If Sintius will get to fight? Tellish agreed to fight him and Cat agreed to moderate. I'm sure as soon as he gets back, Mo will make the necessary change to the pairings. -Jindl |
| Arstimis02-18-04, 04:46 PM | I always considered a monk to have a lot of choices in weapons so the feat would only apply to 1, but of course I am probably wrong. The more I think about it, what you said makes more sense |
| Caterane02-18-04, 04:50 PM | Same with Vandaeris vs Clio if LLMad accepts. |
| Jindl02-18-04, 04:53 PM | Originally posted by Caterane Same with Vandaeris vs Clio if LLMad accepts. Hey bud, wouldn't it be Vandaeris vs Babar (since Babar is getting a doesn't fight credit?) Or did the professor really only want to fight Clio? -Jindl |
| Caterane02-18-04, 05:00 PM | Err, sure. Babar is fine. I just looked at the roster and saw only Clio not ready. Vandaeris vs Babar then. |
| Magagumo02-18-04, 05:03 PM | Hmm, while we are discussing Mods. Any chance someone will take Zippy vs. Zorander? |
| MotherBast02-18-04, 05:16 PM | About the fist = natural attack. I have always belived, as I stated eariler, that the monk's unarmed strike should be concidered a natural attack. I am very glad that LL posted that bit about the PHB citing a fist as a natural attack. As far as I'm concerned it can't get any clearer than that. If the PHB says fist is a natural weapon, then it is. If Arst and Jindl need another backer to get the ball rolling to finaly correct this error in arena rules, well they have my backing. And though I might not be a "senior mod", I think of all the people on this thread who arn't, I have been here the longest. I joined way back on page 27 of this thread. I was a lurker for quite a while, and have also read every post on every thread dealing with the arena. As for my CR suggestion. There is no need to do all that work to calculate the CR of two creatures. Each Allie has a CR. Each gladiator has a CR. The DMG states that is the CR of the "companion creature" is = to or 1 less than the main creature, the CR of the encounter incresses by two. If it is two less than the main creature, the CR is incressed by 1. If the CR of the companion creature is 5 or more less than the main creature, then it does not incress the CR of the encounter at all. This formula is for CR 2 and up, as it doens't work for CR 1 and less, but we don't use CR 1 and less in the arena. Using this system it is easy to dertimin the CR of a duo of creatures. And each player, if he has more than one allie, would have to decide which allie he is using before parings, determin his CR, and declare that in the "ready for ..." line. So it would be possible to be a potential foe at 3 different CRs if you had three differen't allies, as Harvy does. The only person this would create more work for is MO, who would not be able to "neatly" organize gladiators by level any more, but would have to check the pairings line for a CR. It would be the player's responsibility to ensure his CR was correct, and if it wasen't, and his mod or opponit noticed, then he would forfit, just to ensure no one tried to cheat the CR system. The only case where allies would not add to CR are "class feature" allies, who are factored into the class-level CR, and if the allie is 5 CR or more lower than its master. OH, and I support the "STOP THE VOTE" movement, to allow a little more time for discussion and brainstorming. |
| Caterane02-18-04, 05:23 PM | One question: Babar isn`t coming along with a druid companion AND his' dire bat companion, is he??? ONE ally rule. Edit: Hahaha, forget about Babar. I knew I forgot something with Vandaeris: monster fight to get an undead ally now that he is 7th lvl. @Mo: May Vandaeris make a monster fight? |
| sshuit02-18-04, 05:31 PM | Zippy and Roger are game to take on Zorander if we can get a mod! Z vs. Z battle! FIGHT! |
| Magagumo02-18-04, 05:45 PM | At Cat's request (You have to have more faith in me, my friend) I will be using the online roller for the Harvester v. Cauchemar fight, can anyone lead me to where that is? |
| Caterane02-18-04, 05:48 PM | Mag, nothing personal but I always have a bad feeling with your dice. It`s a matter of fact that there are "good" dice and "bad" dice. I bought good ones :D I wonder how Bruno got that old in your campaign Online Roller (http://krisinchico.brinkster.net/rolldata.asp) Please enter "Harvester vs Nightingale" in the headline. |
| MotherBast02-18-04, 05:51 PM | When I DM, I use two sets of Dice. I have "good" dice, for when I want my monsters to put up a fight, but I also have "bad" dice I roll when it looks like the players need a little help. I don't use a DM screen, so all my rolls are visible. The players know there in trouble when I break out the "bad" dice. |
| Arstimis02-18-04, 07:31 PM | improved natural attack..... First, thanks for directing me to the skill,feats boards. I would like to post a little something from there _______ Now, a Monk's unarmed strike is considered both a natural and manufactured weapon for purposes of effects that boost either manufactured or natural weapons. So if a Monk can take Improved Critical, that means that their unarmed strike is considered a manufactured weapon for the purposes of qualifying for the feat. And if the Monk's unarmed strike counts as a manufactured weapon to determine feat prereqs, it counts that it also counts as a natural weapon for feat prereqs. That means that if a Monk can take Improved Critical, then their unarmed strike is able to be considered a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon. That means that a monk with a BAB of +4 can qualify for Improved Natural Attack, since their unarmed strike is considered a natural weapon for the purposes of taking feats that boost or enhance natural weapons. ______________ I dont know if that changes anyone's mind or not, i just thought i would throw that out there. |
| LLMadCow02-18-04, 07:50 PM | Not to open a can of beans, but I must first say that I find a distinct difference between NATURAL WEAPON and NATURAL ATTACK. People throw these around and I think understanding the difference is key. If Natural Weapon = Natural Attack, And a Monk is qualified as fighting with Natural Weapons, And a Monk is allowed to use, interchangeablly, Feet, Hands, Elbows and Knees, Then a Monk is allowed to use Multi-Attack to get in 2 Hands + 2 Elbows + 2 Feet + 2 Knees = 8 Natural Attacks in one round. Add Greater Magic Fang +5 = Base Damage of 40 + All the dice and misc modifiers. I see huge problems. I am off to a sleep study, so I look forward to posting and reading replies in the morning. |
| Magagumo02-18-04, 07:51 PM | Campaign Cat? bruno isn't from a game of mine (except I did then steal and upgrade him to throw vs. my players in my own Arena). No, the last D & D campaign I was in ended abruptly around a year ago, I've just been only Gming since (or playing a one-shot or a different system). I still would like to be in one, but instead am just running a module this semester as well, and co-running an Eberron thingy w/ Snark next sem. One day I will be in a game again ;) As for the die *shrug* it's your wish man, and I suppose I can bow to it this time. However, I prefer my own three die, as it keeps it moving much faster. So no more online roller after this fight ;) |
| Caterane02-18-04, 07:56 PM | @Mag: If it bothers you too much then take your dice. I think even they cannot change the outcome this time. No problem. @Artismis: http://www.1a-network.de/grafik/guestbook/smilies/bash.gif |
| Arstimis02-18-04, 08:00 PM | Originally posted by Caterane @Artismis: http://www.1a-network.de/grafik/guestbook/smilies/bash.gif I know Cat, I know.....but do you have a response to it? Edit: Other than bashing in my head |
| Mercy02-18-04, 08:00 PM | @Snarkhunter - Targ's tactics have been sent. |
| Caterane02-18-04, 08:07 PM | @Arti: Ahem, I already said my opinon more than once but as with the ally issue I have the impression that you either don`t read my posts or just ignore them and post on as if I had said nothing so I better shut up. And honestly, I have other (arena-intern) things to attend to than checking the books for loopholes with the unarmed strike issue. I invested ~10 minutes into this and came to the conclusion that it is not possible. Something which is possible is bending the words to one`s wish and stating it as written. But to end this debate I would suggest you send a mail to all senior mods, bring in your arguments, and let them decide. That`s how it works in such cases. Edit: Note that I do NOT think the feat would be overpowered if given to monks. I just say it is not possible. Perhaps there is the chance for a house rule? *shrugs* |
| Druid Roxors02-18-04, 08:10 PM | Originally posted by LLMadCow Not to open a can of beans, but I must first say that I find a distinct difference between NATURAL WEAPON and NATURAL ATTACK. People throw these around and I think understanding the difference is key. If Natural Weapon = Natural Attack, And a Monk is qualified as fighting with Natural Weapons, And a Monk is allowed to use, interchangeablly, Feet, Hands, Elbows and Knees, Then a Monk is allowed to use Multi-Attack to get in 2 Hands + 2 Elbows + 2 Feet + 2 Knees = 8 Natural Attacks in one round. Add Greater Magic Fang +5 = Base Damage of 40 + All the dice and misc modifiers. I see huge problems. I am off to a sleep study, so I look forward to posting and reading replies in the morning. Not exactly, you see, a monk's weapon is his body, not his fists, elbows etc. If you would use that way of thinking you must also consider headbut, left wrist, right wrist, hips, butlocks, fingers, etc. A monk can hit with ANY part of his body. Think of it as if the monk could use one "1 body attack" OR "2 Fists" OR "Flurry of blows" not all of them at the same time. If you count every part of a monk's body as a weapon, you could do ONE attack, because each part of the body is not a separate weapon, but one single weapon. Now, If improved Critical, Weapon focus and those feats are available to monks, I can't see why can't they take Improved Natural Attack. In my eyes its like taking Monkey Grip, Just a little more powerful. |
| Battousai200502-18-04, 08:12 PM | @Arstimis: I think that the fact that a monks weapon counts as a natural attack should make the prereque for the feat. Course, I'm not an expert. Still, let it be known that Arstimis has one newbie backing him:) Edit: Oh and thanks for the help! @Cat: Was the ally issue resolved? |
| Caterane02-18-04, 08:20 PM | @Battou: It stays as it is - for the moment. Class ability cohorts and leadership allies are ressurected for free, familiars cost 100 gp, animal handlers and undead raisers have to fight the monster and it will not be replaced. The latter ones have to pay the animation costs again. There is still no chance for monks, rogues and other classes to get allies. Additionally, classes with access to only one ally-gaining method are forced to take that or leave it be (i.e. barbarians may only handle animals, clerics may only animate, bards may only lead, etc). My suggestion to bring in mercenaries (price is always regulatable/fixable if it proves problematic) and eleminate the ally problem still stands in the open. Ethendril made a good addition to the mercenary/ally rule: you can only get an ally ECL-2. Cat |
| Battousai200502-18-04, 08:24 PM | I hope this question has an easy ansawr. Is it possible to score a critical hit with a grenade like weapon. Ex. Someone rolls a 20 with alchemist fire. Does the person score double damage first round, all rounds, or does it not even count as a critical hit? |
| Caterane02-18-04, 08:26 PM | Yes on the critical, the first hit only but not the secondary damage |
| Arstimis02-18-04, 08:30 PM | I think the idea have having merc's available for all classes is a good one, but a must have for balance would be the ECL-2 @Tellish: :mad: What, i have you for a mod again, could it get any worse. Hehehe just messing, im happy to have you as a mod :D Anyways, tactics have been sent |
| Magagumo02-18-04, 08:38 PM | @ Cat, Thx dude, the fight will take far less time. Also, I wanted to remind you, that I've actually run a fight wwhere you won, it was way back w/ Harvy vs. Buttmunch, (the longest contiguous fight for awhile). Just wanted to remind you that Harvy has won with me before (so I think its Ebelin who is cursed, having lost three times under me vs. Bilo, Jindl, and Brackin) :D Fight should be run Friday or SUnday night, prob the later.... Any takers on Z vs. Z *sad, puppyesque look* |
| Jindl02-18-04, 08:48 PM | Originally posted by Magagumo (so I think its Ebelin who is cursed, having lost three times under me vs. Bilo, Jindl, and Brackin) :D Or, perhaps Bilo, Jindl, and Brackin are simply more powerful gladiators... |
| Caterane02-18-04, 08:52 PM | Yeah, I had no bow and Buttmunch was flying. I had to outlast every spell until he had to come down to fight in melee. *sigh* that were glorious times back then. @Jindl: Ebelin won vs Bilo and Brackin. Jindl had always the advantage of 2 vs 1. Without your Blindsight Direbat you would`ve had far more problems (no wildshape back then!). |
| Battousai200502-18-04, 08:53 PM | Ok, heres a problem that is not in the rules. If a person is undetecable by means of invisiblity or other means, but has fairie fire cast on him, can he still be seen. The reference i make is a person who has Hide from Undead cast on him but also has fairie fire. Would the Undead be able to see the outline and attack? |
| Druid Roxors02-18-04, 09:09 PM | Faerie Fire does not make you visible, it just makes a sparkly outline. So, in my opinion, You will be "Visible" in that case. (hide from undead/animals potion). Since the undead is still invisible, but outlined, there is no doubt it would work. This spell foils the Senses of such creatures from his prescence, but not from the fruity sparkles. (same with Glitterdust, wich should be a better example for the undead, since wizards get it) |
| Battousai200502-18-04, 09:22 PM | @Tellish_of_Ket: Would you mind showing what the heck your quaal's feather token is exactly. I would like to know. I prefer to know how i am going to be beaten down:D |
| Battousai200502-18-04, 10:07 PM | Sintius tactics sent |
| Jindl02-18-04, 10:07 PM | Originally posted by Caterane @Jindl: Ebelin won vs Bilo and Brackin. Jindl had always the advantage of 2 vs 1. Without your Blindsight Direbat you would`ve had far more problems (no wildshape back then!). My friend, are you referring to our level 8 match or our level 6 match? In the level 8 match, Nox barely even damaged you. And the damage he caused was insignificant compared to the following round (which would have killed you anyway). Our level 8 match was for the title of Arena Champion (and the first to reach the holding area at 9th level), and you tried to grapple me while I was in eagle form. I'll never forget the look on your face when the eagle suddenly became a huge bear. Of course the look didn't stay long (neither did your face, for that matter.) It's actually one of the most enjoyable fights the druid has been in (along with the original defeat of Bilo using the bat swarm). Those who want to read the Level 8: Ebelin vs Jindl fight, can find it on page 6 of the fights thread. If you were referring to our first encounter, which was at level 6 (I did have wildshape, btw), that was the one where I faerie fired you in the first round and then summoned a pack of ravid hippogryphs to eat you. Nox didn't really play much of a role in that fight either, though he did deliver the killing blow. But it was the 3 natural attacks for each hippogryph that really did all the damage. And to think, it was all possible because of a little 1st level spell, faerie fire. Its on page 4 if anyone wants to read that one. Ah, Jindl and Ebelin have had their fights in the past. They've always been fun. Hopefully, they'll be more chances in the future... -Jindl |
| JonahBlack02-19-04, 12:05 AM | @LLMadCow: I emailed you tactics for Grimlock. Have fun! |
| Druid Roxors02-19-04, 12:09 AM | Woot! Just gave the finishing touches to my First Character for the Arena! I hope to enter a match Next week. Wish me luck. (or not ;) ) Corinthus Avius & Preductoris the Wolf Page 5 |
| Arstimis02-19-04, 02:53 AM | Email sent to the top 7 mods.( top 7 according to mod list on gladiators page) It shows most of what i think is evidence to support that Improved Natural Attack is legal for a monk I am doing this as Caterane suggested i do Edit: just look back a few pages and realized LLMadCow is considered a senior mod, but wasnt in the top 7 of the mod list..so email is being sent to him too |
| Moherajikuyx02-19-04, 05:23 AM | - Gorgon mistype - ToK: is sintius vs silencius ok? (Cat) - sshuit: is Zippy vs. Zorander ok? - Moh: is Vandaeris vs Babar ok? Wait that's me... yes it is ok Doh Cat you flee from the fight eh? Let it be known then... Dr. DRE FEARS BARDS! :D I sent an email back to Arstimis. He should be satisfied. MB - when you learn the difference among primary sources and secundary sources you're a senior moderator! :thumbsup: People... Wouldn't you love having the chance of writing and reading in a less crowded thread? Or possibly in a thread for any argument? ... Old Moh's readying something... ;) Happy announces announced!:behold: |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-19-04, 05:29 AM | Originally posted by Battousai2005 @Tellish_of_Ket: Would you mind showing what the heck your quaal's feather token is exactly. I would like to know. I prefer to know how i am going to be beaten down:D It should state Quaal's feather token:whip. Sorry if i missed that part. fearie fire/glitterdust vs hide from animals. the potion doesn't make you invisbile from the animal. So fearie fire/glitterdust will have no effect. If a person drinks hide from animals and is glitter'd/fearie'd animals still cannot respond to the person so warded. To these animals, the individual simply does not exist. Wether you outline me in chalk/flour, put glowing light bulbs on me, will be absolutely irrelevant. To the animal, i simply do not exist. @MO: yup, i agree to fight sintius Tellish |
| LLMadCow02-19-04, 05:52 AM | Please start posting HERE (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=184499) to debate the whol Ally issue. Ithink we should stop taking up so much space in the main thread and I offer a solution that includes some organizational impact with one person posting all of the PROS and another postig all of the CONS in the arguement. I will update the main post with new information and the following two posts list the key points in the arguements. Stop by.... |
| Tharkos02-19-04, 06:30 AM | Originally posted by LLMadCow Please start posting HERE (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&perpage=1&postid=184499#post184499) to debate the whol Ally issue. Ithink we should stop taking up so much space in the main thread and I offer a solution that includes some organizational impact with one person posting all of the PROS and another postig all of the CONS in the arguement. I will update the main post with new information and the following two posts list the key points in the arguements. Stop by.... That link doesnt work ... at least it doesnt for me. |
| LLMadCow02-19-04, 06:36 AM | Fixed link.... |
| MotherBast02-19-04, 07:17 AM | MO- I do know the difference between primary and secondary sorces. If you will remember back during the "carrying capasity for flying mounts" issue, it was actually I who outlined for Cat and anyone else following the argument what the critearita for a primary and secondary sorce was. For a combat rule, the PHB is the primary sorce on all matters, unless another sorce specificaly says "this is an exception the the rule as printed in the PHB." So, the PHB is the "primary" sorce for determining what is a "Natural Weapon", just as it is the primary sorce for determining everything else about any "weapon" that appears in its pages. If the PHB says a fist is a "primary" weapon, then it is. Having thought on it for a while, I would agree with Mag though, that if a monk took that feat, he could only use it once, or twice with flurry, since Natural Weapons do not recive secondary attacks. (I once built a waretiger fighter who hated this rule.) However, what about a Monk grappler with two-weapon fighting? He could flurry for all his normal attacks, then use his "off-hand" natural weapon for another attack, that could possably deal a little more damage. Just trying to think up a way to make the feat useful after level 6 for a monk. |
| Moherajikuyx02-19-04, 08:16 AM | OK MB: you're a senior mod now :) I actually considered you one already. The primary source for what concerns natural weapons can't but be the MM... Come on where do you find them. About the grapple, keep in mind that you can't use more than one weapon in a grapple. |
| Pitlords02-19-04, 08:37 AM | Again... |
| Moherajikuyx02-19-04, 08:49 AM | Hey guys... I hereby declare officially stupid the following: - Boots of Nike: +2 move sil - Earrings of Amplifon: +2 listen - Pipe of concentration... - Hairmakeup of Spike: +2 intimidate and so on. Are we going to have everyone spend 50 gp on all their skills? These items are usually dm-decided. I think that here we should allow them only as mw versions of items already in commerce that prevent a -2 situational penalty using them. |
| Jindl02-19-04, 10:32 AM | RE: Masterwork Tools I think we need to narrowly define what "tools" constitute. I would suggest allowing masterwork tools for any skill that mimics a profession or job. The list would include: 1. Profession (any) 2. Craft (any)* 3. Perform (any non-instrument based)** 4. Handle Animal *- Craft skills require masterwork artisan tools, which are similar to generic tools, in that they cost 50 gp more than the standard artisan tools. **- Instrument based Perform skills would need to use masterwork instruments, which have their own cost and are not generic tools. All of the above are skills that can earn money for the character. Whether its performing a song, training animals, crafting items, or just doing you profession, all of the above are trades, and thus the items with which you perform these skills are tools. So, the only generic masterwork tools you can buy would be for the above skills. There are some other masterwork tools that are specifically listed in the PHB (such as thieves tools, military saddles, disguise kits, etc.) These items are still available, but not as generic tools. What does everyone think of this proposal to limit "tools" to things that can actually be used with the above skills? -Jindl |
| Druid Roxors02-19-04, 10:48 AM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket fearie fire/glitterdust vs hide from animals. the potion doesn't make you invisbile from the animal. So fearie fire/glitterdust will have no effect. If a person drinks hide from animals and is glitter'd/fearie'd animals still cannot respond to the person so warded. To these animals, the individual simply does not exist. Wether you outline me in chalk/flour, put glowing light bulbs on me, will be absolutely irrelevant. To the animal, i simply do not exist. Tellish Although, after reading the description for glitterdust I would concurr. Glitterdust specifically counters invisibility and this potions do not grant invisibility. Nevertheless, Faerie fire does not counter invisibility. Faerie fire outlines (in other words, the creatures do not emmit the light, faerie fire does) the creatures and they shine like low candles. Hide from animals, 3.5 SRDAnimals cannot see, hear, or smell the warded creatures. Even extraordinary or supernatural sensory capabilities, such as blindsense, blindsight, scent, and tremorsense, cannot detect or locate warded creatures. Animals simply act as though the warded creatures are not there. If a warded character touches an animal or attacks any creature, even with a spell, the spell ends for all recipients. The spell itself hides the creatures but not their equipment (if we want to take it literally). An animal wouldn't normally attack equipment unless asked to do so. Faerie fire is not part of the subject, I agree that it would be unnatural for an animal to attack a shimmering outline but a druid in wildshape or a directed companion would attack it nevertheless. |
| Ethendril02-19-04, 11:15 AM | What does everyone think of this proposal to limit "tools" to things that can actually be used with the above skills? I think there needs to be some limit (this one seems fine to me). Otherwise, EVERY skill could have some item invented that could help it (MW maps for knowledge: geography, MW springs for jump, MW Q-Tips for listen, etc.). No more stupid MW items! -Ethendril |
| Caterane02-19-04, 01:13 PM | What does everyone think of this proposal to limit "tools" to things that can actually be used with the above skills? *through empty starring eyes* "I...think...Mo...is...right...I...always ...think...Mo...is...right..." |
| Ethendril02-19-04, 01:17 PM | Originally posted by Caterane *through empty starring eyes* "I...think...Mo...is...right...I...always ...think...Mo...is...right..." I think Cat has been HARVESTED. |
| Jindl02-19-04, 02:31 PM | Tactics sent for Anna, Ghost of the Arena and for Aku, the Shapeshifting Master of Darkness. Tactics received from Alric (Myrridin), Jagath (Alterlat), and Herrix (LLMadCow). Still waiting on tactics from Lance (cellardweller), Brackin (MotherBast), and Kelek (Tellish). I'm going to run the Jagath vs Herrix fight tonight. -Jindl |
| Bishop the Bardican02-19-04, 02:57 PM | I have reread the FAQ, but I can not find the answer I am looking for. Is handle animal treated in the same way as craft? Does a druid need to have a modifier equal to DC-10 to teach a trick to its animal companion? Does a riding dog animal companion still begin with the riding general purpose? *All of the above questions do not deal with the companion's bonus trick. |
| Jindl02-19-04, 03:00 PM | Originally posted by Bishop the Bardican I have reread the FAQ, but I can not find the answer I am looking for. Is handle animal treated in the same way as craft? Does a druid need to have a modifier equal to DC-10 to teach a trick to its animal companion? Does a riding dog animal companion still begin with the riding general purpose? *All of the above questions do not deal with the companion's bonus trick. For training purposes, your handle animal check is treated as if "taking 10". The riding dog animal companion does already automatically know the combat riding general purpose (which equal's 6 tricks). Don't forget to teach it the attack trick twice, so that it will attack all of the "unusual" monsters it may face in the arena. -Jindl |
| Moherajikuyx02-19-04, 03:27 PM | Arena people! Bishop the Bardican is entering next week as NEW MODERATOR! Hail! Bishop sorry I missed your post in the debate :) Jindl I'd rather remove the animal handler tools as it gives a bit of balance lessening handlers' animals of a pair of hit dices. And balance is gained through bits. ;) |
| Magagumo02-19-04, 03:28 PM | Hey Moh, would Bishop be interested in running the Z v. Z fight? Unless I missed it among the posts, we still don't have a Mod listed in the Gladiator page, and I don't want to be late with tactics ;) |
| Bishop the Bardican02-19-04, 03:35 PM | Hey I will take Z vs. Z or whatever else needs to be done. I am reading through the old fights, but slowly, so forgive any differences in tone. Just let me know if I should take it, and I will start work. |
| Caterane02-19-04, 03:37 PM | I would run it :) :drool: credits :drool: Edit: But if Bishop wants it, I`m fine with it *un-crosses fingers* |
| Bishop the Bardican02-19-04, 03:41 PM | It's Cat's choice. Z vs. Z is his if he wants it. Another week's learning could not hurt me either. |
| Caterane02-19-04, 03:47 PM | No Bishop, take it. TAKE IT! But please leave me my last bite of bread and the drops of water *handstrembling* |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-19-04, 03:52 PM | Originally posted by Druid Roxors The spell itself hides the creatures but not their equipment (if we want to take it literally). An animal wouldn't normally attack equipment unless asked to do so. Faerie fire is not part of the subject, I agree that it would be unnatural for an animal to attack a shimmering outline but a druid in wildshape or a directed companion would attack it nevertheless. But doesn't hide their equipment? Hunh? Where does it say that? As far as a persons equipment is concerned, it's considered the person. Ergo, faerie fire outlining an individual is still safe from any animal while under the influence of hide from animals. Tellish |
| Myrridin02-19-04, 04:01 PM | *cough* I'll take the fight. I offered a little while back to take any that anyone doesn't want as well. |
| Jindl02-19-04, 04:09 PM | Faerie Fire and Hide from Animals / Undead I think Tellish is right on this one. Faerie fire works against concealment effects (like invisibility, darkness, displacement, etc). But the hide from animals / undead spells do not use concealment (which is why they block tremorsense, scent, listen, etc). So faerie fire would not help an animal locate someone who is under the effect of a hide from animals spell. Yet another reason to summon hippogyphs, because they are magical beasts... -Jindl |
| Jindl02-19-04, 04:19 PM | Hey Magagumo - You need to clear your private message box, because it's full. Check the "sent items" because you may have a bunch of old PM's that you could trash. I'm trying to send you a reply to the PM you just sent me :D -Jindl Thanks! Message Sent :D |
| Caterane02-19-04, 04:22 PM | Glitterdust and Faery fire have no effect on a person with hide from animals because the animal wouldn`t detect it without these spells either. It could stand right infront of it and make stupid grimaces without the silly dog noticing it. One thing Lassie would notice is the faery fire/glitterdust because these effects are not hidden from the potion although from the animals point of view they would be burning in the air. Well, an animal is too stupid to wonder about such effects anyway. |
| Magagumo02-19-04, 04:27 PM | Yea, I didn't realize sent messgaes filled it up, wondered how it was full w/ 4 messages, try again and we should be fine :D |
| Moherajikuyx02-19-04, 04:34 PM | Waiting for sshuit's ok for Zippy vs. Zorander, as it was after the pairings. Bishop you'll have to wait a week :) (we always give moderators fight starting from level 2 and growing... It resulted in nice results in the past.) |
| Caterane02-19-04, 04:37 PM | Ok, so I take it. Bishop PMd me and is fine with it until I kicked his shinbone....errr asked him politely...what? Ah, forget it. |
| Magagumo02-19-04, 04:50 PM | I think sshuit's good with it, since he was begging for the fight earlier, Moh :D |
| sshuit02-19-04, 05:29 PM | I posted earlier that Z VS Z would be AOK with me. Who's the Mod so I can get them my tactics? sshuit |
| Caterane02-19-04, 05:31 PM | Power word: ME! [Sshuit: Will save (19+10) = 29 vs Dc45395, fails, Sshuit is stunned] |
| Druid Roxors02-19-04, 05:33 PM | Yes Caterane, thats what I ment. Faerie fire does not negate invisibility or the effect of the potion in any way. He is still undetectable, but the glimmering stuff floating in mid air is quite strange. |
| Jindl02-19-04, 05:36 PM | Originally posted by Caterane Dc45395 Hmm, based on that DC, I would guess Cat is high level divine caster (Wis based) with the Madness domain. Obviously his spellcasting is not based on Int or Cha ... [j/k] :D -Jindl |
| Arstimis02-19-04, 05:40 PM | So it seems most agree there would still be the outline of color floating around the recipient of the spell, and a some animals arent stupid, take my giant eagle. If i told it to attack the thing outlined by the color, it should be able to attack something...or is my thinking incorrect, as it always seems to be for alot of people |
| Caterane02-19-04, 05:45 PM | @Arti: No, you can NOT use Faery fire in combination with Improved natural attack. Wait, you didn`t say that? Sorry, habbits :D |
| Jindl02-19-04, 05:45 PM | Originally posted by Arstimis So it seems most agree there would still be the outline of color floating around the recipient of the spell, and a some animals arent stupid, take my giant eagle. If i told it to attack the thing outlined by the color, it should be able to attack something...or is my thinking incorrect, as it always seems to be for alot of people Giant Eagles are unaffected by Hide from Animals (because they are magical beasts). Actually all animals are stupid (have an Int of 1 or 2). -Jindl |
| Caterane02-19-04, 05:46 PM | Hmm, based on that DC, I would guess Cat is high level divine caster (Wis based) with the Madness domain. Obviously his spellcasting is not based on Int or Cha ... Ever heard of ethereal Gorgons? :devil: |
| Jindl02-19-04, 05:48 PM | Originally posted by Caterane Ever heard of ethereal Gorgons? :devil: See, I told you he had the Madness domain... but then you already knew that, didn't you? -Jindl :heehee |
| Arstimis02-19-04, 05:52 PM | Originally posted by Caterane @Arti: No, you can NOT use Faery fire in combination with Improved natural attack. Wait, you didn`t say that? Sorry, habbits :D Well that answers my next question, hehe Originally posted by Jindl Giant Eagles are unaffected by Hide from Animals (because they are magical beasts). Actually all animals are stupid (have an Int of 1 or 2). Ah...i was trying to think of a smarter animal, and just forgot about that. How about a ranger's or druid's animal companion. Same question as before:If i told it to attack the thing outlined by the color, should it be able to attack the thing outlined? |
| Caterane02-19-04, 05:53 PM | :rofl: Ah Jindl, I love our teasings. I sit here and write page 12/15 of my 1st of 5 homeworks while my friends are all out on parties and that isn`t funny at all. At least the arena makes me laugh. :) Edit: But the best laugh today was when Mo told me about the masterwork tools: Nike boots *lol* Amplifone (+2 listen) Spike`s dyed hair (+2 intimidate) Jindl's hand (+2 sleight) Tobacco pipe (+2 concentration) The Harvester has cool names: Whispering voices of the deceased (+2 spellcraft) Shroud of the netherworld (+2 concentraiton) |
| sshuit02-19-04, 05:55 PM | Tactics sent to you Cat :-) Please forward them to another mod if you were joking about moderating the fight! Roger/Zippy PS haven't received tactics from Ilene yet. ASAP please! sshuit |
| Mustadio[MoF]02-19-04, 06:06 PM | it says im fighting Angosh, but he is a lvl above me. |
| Caterane02-19-04, 06:08 PM | Yes, because he won. Wait, why is the pairing still set? LLMad ran it last week. He received no tactics from Mustacio nor had he any defaults listed on his sheet. No response to PMs or emails either. @Musta: If there is anything unclear please ask. We gladly help you out to ensure everything goes according to plan. You have to send tactics to your moderator or you lose. Alternatively - if you don`t have much time - you can write default tactics on your sheet so that the mod uses these if you dont send any. |
| Arstimis02-19-04, 06:23 PM | ya...Angosh's character sheet says 2nd level (fighter +1ecl), but everything else about ihim (hp, bab, skills, feats, gold) imply he's leveled up, and should be 3rd level. Poor Arty, first fight and he is ready for, and its not even supposed to happen cause the opponent is a level higher |
| Caterane02-19-04, 07:45 PM | Finished. 25 pages!! And still 4 homeworks to go. HARGH!! I`m absolutely mad! Someone has to suffer *looksaround* Ah, ...Donkey :devil: |
| Mustadio[MoF]02-19-04, 08:16 PM | I was still trying to learn how to navigate the forums, so i never found my who to send tactics to. And I now have default tactics. But what about this week? What am I doing for a fight? |
| Caterane02-19-04, 08:22 PM | The only option would be to contact Rayne to have him set the kobold ready but seriously I think it`s a bit late already; Friday morning and the first fights will be posted soon. |
| Jindl02-19-04, 08:22 PM | Re: Angosh vs Arty See how much we depend on Mo. He made a tiny mistake (pairing Arty last week when the sheet said ready for 2/18 ... not 2/11) and now everything is bonkers. Seriously though, the pairing last week was a mistake by Mo. Arty was not supposed to be ready last week, which is why Mustadia never sent tactics to LL. That fight never happened, and Angosh was not supposed to advance. Mo has tried contacting Pittbull to tell him to reset his character back to ECL 2. Assuming he does so, then the actual fight against Arty can finally take place. So, Mustadio, please do send tactics to LL for a fight against Angosh. Pittbull, get your character reset to ECL 2 (you actually have to fight someone to advance) and send LL new tactics, and then LL will run the fight and everything will return to normal. -Jindl Hopefully, Mo can avoid another mistake, and fix the Spike/Johan situation. One of those guys won their fight last week, and should have advanced a level on the roster. Amazingly, the roster still shows them both at 9th level. Somebody outta fix that :D |
| Mustadio[MoF]02-19-04, 08:26 PM | yay, GL to Arty :P |
| Caterane02-19-04, 08:30 PM | I fear this might not work because it is too complicated. First of all Pitbull has to edit his sheet to degrade his gladiator which is a violation against our prime directive. Then there is the possibility that he doesn`t respond at all and I wouldn`t have Mustadio write tactics for a fight that might not take place. Also remember it is already friday, a bit late for such maneuvers. Next point: LL ran the fight and Angosh won thus he advanced his character. I would say we either keep things as they are (Angosh won) and Arty sits out, or we renounce LLMads fight and have both sit out this week and forget about the pair. Next week they will get new pairing rolls. |
| Mustadio[MoF]02-19-04, 08:37 PM | -.- meh, ill just sit out, ill get in next week |
| Jindl02-19-04, 08:42 PM | Hey, I'm just telling you what Mo was trying to do. He has been working on fixing this mistake since Tuesday (at least that's when he first told me about it). As for "LL running the fight and Angosh winning". there was no fight. It wasn't a case of one character retiring mid fight. Lack of tactics =/= automatic win for the opponent. Lack of tactics means a delay in the fight. Angosh never should have advanced his character. If Angosh fixes his character, then these two can fight. If Angosh doesn't fix his character, then they both will get re-paired (to different opponents) next week. Rayne is out of town, so there is no possibility for Arty to face the kobold. So, the only chance Arty and Angosh have of fighting this week is if Angosh fixes his character. Either way, Angosh will not fight in another match until he actually wins against a ECL 2 gladiator (Mo is not going to move him to the 3rd level of the roster). So Pittbull will have to fix him eventually, if he wants him to fight. LL's "fight" from last week has already been renounced. What we are trying to do is get these two a fight for this weekend. But if Angosh doesn't update, then both characters will not fight this weekend. -Jindl |
| Jindl02-19-04, 09:50 PM | Since both players seemed fine with it, here is a little preview of this weekend's blood and gore: Herrix Ignatius vs Jagath Kihr. Amazingly, the winner of the fight never rolled over an 8 on any d20 roll. Now if only Cat could learn to do that. -Jindl PS: Tactics received from everyone. Snark - I'll get you Jindl's tactics soon. |
| Arstimis02-19-04, 09:55 PM | Jindl....did you get my Pm and email? |
| Jindl02-19-04, 10:16 PM | Originally posted by Arstimis Jindl....did you get my Pm and email? Yes. Please be patient, I'll respond in a while. |
| Battousai200502-19-04, 10:24 PM | @TOK: Ok, for starters, i used hide from undead for an example. Isn't it just slightly possible that a druid uses an undead creature in a fight? I don't see the big argument. I mean, its not like you use a potion of hide from animals to attempt to fool a certain druids wolf while your whip grapples said druid and you burn him to ashes with alchemist fire or anything. ;) JK @Everyone: Does idle speculation always lead to a debate here? |
| JonahBlack02-19-04, 10:37 PM | Originally posted by Battousai2005 @Everyone: Does idle speculation always lead to a debate here? Yes. Always. |
| SnarkHunter02-19-04, 11:15 PM | Got tactics for Targ, Nevr, and Rito. Sent tactics for Donkey. Ah its nice not to have a credit penalty again. |
| Jindl02-20-04, 12:19 AM | Hrmm, any comments on the Herrix vs Jagath fight? @Snark - tactics emailed for Jindl... please be gentle (I am still shuddering from that lost to the Harvester.) -Jindl |
| Alterlat02-20-04, 01:04 AM | Originally posted by Jindl Hrmm, any comments on the Herrix vs Jagath fight? -Jindl I couldn't see any problems with it. The teaser you put here was effective though - it had me wondering whether the fight went very well or very badly... Sorry for been vague about when to heal, too - you were right to tell me off for that. Edit: Incidently, I notice the entry for the gorgon describes it as impossible to calm or domesticate - would that cause a problem with using it as an ally? |
| Moherajikuyx02-20-04, 04:14 AM | Angosh vs Arty - there's no need in editing the sheet, the previous sheet can be found on the fight (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2578729#post2578729). Anyways it seems Mustadio's leaving the fight, in such case the result becomes valid as he declared to be ready for the 18. I guess I'll leave him till tomorrow, then with no tactics the situation will not change. *Edit* interrupted fight corrected... Thanks Jindl. |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-20-04, 05:15 AM | Originally posted by Battousai2005 @TOK: Ok, for starters, i used hide from undead for an example. Isn't it just slightly possible that a druid uses an undead creature in a fight? I don't see the big argument. I mean, its not like you use a potion of hide from animals to attempt to fool a certain druids wolf while your whip grapples said druid and you burn him to ashes with alchemist fire or anything. ;) JK Is it that transparent? :D Tellish |
| Pittbull02-20-04, 08:59 AM | First of all, is not a third- level charakter against arty. i was told that i won fight and to level up. after that Moherajikuyx told me that we shall wait for arty untill today. LLMadCow got already the 2nd level angosh and will use him, if the fight is redone. if loose this i sure leveldrain angosh again. |
| LLMadCow02-20-04, 10:04 AM | I WANT TO RUN THE FIGHT! But I cannot cajole Mustadio[MoF] into sending me his tactics. What is the problem? Is he ready or not? I was opposed to re-running the fight in the first place, and now that Mo has slapped me around a bit, here I am, ready to run fight. I'll not be pimped for no reason! Don't make me level Angosh all over agian! Angosh vs The Broom(s) ROUND 2!!! LL |
| Arstimis02-20-04, 10:09 AM | Arty is ready, he just didnt know if angosh was ready to fight in the second level fight.....so you can... 1) wait about 12 hours for mustadio to get home and send you tactics 2) do the fight using is default tactics |
| Moherajikuyx02-20-04, 10:21 AM | :| I see that everyone here dictates what to do... LL I already told what's the plan, so stick with it. |
| LLMadCow02-20-04, 10:26 AM | Quote by Moherajikuyx LL I already told what's the plan, so stick with it. :bow: Yes sir. :bow: |
| Moherajikuyx02-20-04, 10:28 AM | :nonono: |
| LLMadCow02-20-04, 10:41 AM | :ayyyy!: |
| Bishop the Bardican02-20-04, 11:52 AM | I posted my second character yesterday. He won't be fighting until next week. I would like to make a different character but did not know if there was a problem with this. Can we only edit previously posted characters or can we make a totally different character? All of this will be happening well before the 2/25 pairings, today if possible. |
| MadCowTemplate02-20-04, 12:13 PM | MCT: Been awhile since I participated in the arena, think I'll get back to that ... alright, let's see what people are up to ... LL: :bow:Yes sir.:bow: MO: :nonono: LL: :ayyyy!: MCT: :D :heehee :rofl: :weep: Ohhh, you guys. Now, where was I... :whatsthis |
| Ethendril02-20-04, 12:59 PM | Tactics received for both Grym and Voliana. I'll run the fight later today if I have time. Otherwise, it will be Monday before I can run it. -Ethendril EDIT: @Bishop I posted my second character yesterday. He won't be fighting until next week. I would like to make a different character but did not know if there was a problem with this. Can we only edit previously posted characters or can we make a totally different character? All of this will be happening well before the 2/25 pairings, today if possible. There is no problem with creating new characters or retiring old characters whenever you want. I think the only limitations would be that you can only have one free character (mod no fights), then one character for every fight you mod over the free one, and that you couldn't retire a character that was already set to fight that week. |
| Myrridin02-20-04, 01:30 PM | The Dar'Kel versus Felix fight has been run. I'm going to check it over a time or two, just to make sure I did everything right. There were a couple breakdowns in the tactics from people, Felix, you didn't have a Bless memorized, or a CMW anywhere on your character sheet. |
| Arstimis02-20-04, 01:42 PM | Originally posted by Myrridin The Dar'Kel versus Felix fight has been run. I'm going to check it over a time or two, just to make sure I did everything right. There were a couple breakdowns in the tactics from people, Felix, you didn't have a Bless memorized, or a CMW anywhere on your character sheet. in case you forgot, Felix can spontaneously cast CMW from a spell of the same level |
| Caterane02-20-04, 01:46 PM | This was my first strike, and the second folgt zugleich Anna vs a Gorgon (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2627635#post2627635) |
| Myrridin02-20-04, 02:43 PM | As a second level cleric, he doesn't have 2nd level spells yet, so the best he can do is cast a spontaneous CLW. |
| Moherajikuyx02-20-04, 03:00 PM | Thanks Ethendril :) Actually you can have more than one, but only one will fight per week unless you moderate, normally. With the credits things can change, like a moderator getting a week off seldomly. |
| Magagumo02-20-04, 03:12 PM | Rawr!! Day fo suffering known as Friday has been completed, onto Act V: Saturday, the Reckoning ;) Anyways.. *cough* I will have Zorander's tactics to Bishop in a few min, and will be running the Cauchemar v. Harvester fight sunday. Tomorrow we will witness the pain fo a party traversing Gehenna and the Abyss via the Styx, ending up with 14 random encounters in one session *GM faints*. After that, I watch as my 8 arena players brutally murder one another in 1 v. 1 fights to amuse me :D |
| Bishop the Bardican02-20-04, 03:35 PM | @Mag I am not your moderator for the fight. Something could have changed, but last I heard Caterane was your moderator. EDIT: Tactics email is deleted. |
| Magagumo02-20-04, 03:40 PM | Oh... Mind deleting the email I just sent then? I'll be happy to send one with an initial message more applicable to Cat ;) |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-20-04, 04:01 PM | Finished and complete. Gotta love short fights. Easy on the constitution. Tellish *EDIT* Now if only i hadn't misplaced Kiowen's tactics i'd be doing that fight right now. Arstimis can you resend me your tactics please? |
| Arstimis02-20-04, 04:53 PM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket *EDIT* Now if only i hadn't misplaced Kiowen's tactics i'd be doing that fight right now. Arstimis can you resend me your tactics please? will do when I get home in 5 min You probably just deleted it along with the other annoying emails I sent ;) |
| Ethendril02-20-04, 05:48 PM | Let's play a game... It's called, "DOES ETHENDRIL HAVE A GREVIOUS ERROR THAT WILL MAKE HIM RERUN HIS ENTIRE FIGHT?!" To play, simply read the Voliana vs. Grym Mordib fight, look for errors that are so blatant and fight-altering that the fight must be rerun, and once found, report them here. If you win, Ethendril must rerun his entire fight (like the last two weeks). Good luck, and let's play! |
| Caterane02-20-04, 05:59 PM | @Ethendril: Grym would not have been flatfooted, even when lost ini. What an error-plagued fight! I would say you should resign as a mod, go to the next temple and spent all your wealth on as much atonements as you can get. ;) |
| MotherBast02-20-04, 06:00 PM | @Eth: For one, no sneak attack damage would have been delt, as one can only sneak attack with a ranged weapon if no farther than 30' away. The inital attack was like 200' away, so no sneak attack. Second, a CDG is a full round action, so you can't attack with two weapons when preforming it. Also, the save should have been 22, as the first attack did 12 damage, and the save = 10 + damage delt. The looser still would have failed, so no need to rerun the fight. |
| Ethendril02-20-04, 06:02 PM | YOU WIN! EDIT: I've edited the fight to make myself appear only slightly less stupid. Thanks for the help. Fortunately, it didn't change the outcome of the fight. @MB: Maybe you will want to remove the spoilers from your posts now that I've changed it. I would say you should resign as a mod, go to the next temple and spent all your wealth on as much atonements as you can get. This will be happening soon if I don't improve.:behold: |
| Mustadio[MoF]02-20-04, 06:19 PM | Arty's tactics have been sent. |
| sshuit02-20-04, 07:05 PM | @ethendril Great narrative!.. looks like the fight was a piece of cake to run too ;) Thx for moderating. [*edit*] spoilers removed : whoops! :b: the sneak thief formerly known as Voliana. |
| Ethendril02-20-04, 08:03 PM | Watch those spoilers everyone! |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-20-04, 08:09 PM | ATTENTION!! If you're tired and having trouble sleeping, please go read Kiowen vs Peter first. It's guaranteed to put you to sleep...FAST!! @spoilers: When i see a new post on the fights thread, i always go there first instead of here to avoid potential spoilers. But it's not like i was waiting on pins and needles for the outcome of this one, but hey. Ya never know. Tellish |
| sshuit02-20-04, 09:08 PM | A Couple of quick questions 1) Craft DC's of poison is equal to their fortitude save DC's correct? 2) Crafting poison is at 1/2 cost right? :b: Asking for no reason ! |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-20-04, 10:26 PM | Originally posted by sshuit A Couple of quick questions 1) Craft DC's of poison is equal to their fortitude save DC's correct? 2) Crafting poison is at 1/2 cost right? :b: Asking for no reason ! No, it's equal to 10+save DC. Tellish |
| barrel_master02-21-04, 01:26 PM | Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket ATTENTION!! If you're tired and having trouble sleeping, please go read Kiowen vs Peter first. It's guaranteed to put you to sleep...FAST!! @spoilers: When i see a new post on the fights thread, i always go there first instead of here to avoid potential spoilers. But it's not like i was waiting on pins and needles for the outcome of this one, but hey. Ya never know. Tellish How unforutnate, I didn't intend for the fight to be borring for you... I wonder how it turned out. |
| barrel_master02-21-04, 02:09 PM | I have a question for the board... would the thaumaturgist's planer cohort ability be used for dudes that usualy wouldn't share 'a cause important to the creature'? 'Planar Cohort: A 5th-level thaumaturgist can use any of the planar ally spells to call a creature to act as his cohort. The called creature serves loyally and well as long as the thaumaturgist continues to advance a cause important to the creature. To call a planar cohort, the thaumaturgist must cast the relevant spell, paying the XP costs normally. It takes an offering of 1,000 gp x the HD of the creature to convince it to serve as a planar cohort, and the improved ally class feature can’t be used to reduce or eliminate this cost' |
| Battousai200502-21-04, 04:04 PM | @Caterane: something i forgot to mention when i e-mailed my tactics. Qualls Feather token whip is considered a dancing weapon. Therefore, it cannot, as in TOK vs. Kaigan, attack beyond 10 ft. from its activator. Its in the DMG under dancing weapons. @Kaigan: Dude, how many times are you and MotherBast's Morning(or however it is now) gonna go at it? |
| sshuit02-21-04, 04:04 PM | Ilene vs Ony is up. Let me know if you see any mistakes. sshuit |
| kattattack2202-21-04, 04:12 PM | @sshuit - I didn't catch anything wrong. Great stroy btw. Ony doesn't seem to have much luck with the ladies (romantically). |
| kattattack2202-21-04, 04:14 PM | Ony, but has trouble finding out why Ony still has no loss on his record. Nothing fancy there, not even special equipment. I follow the KISS method of D&D combat. |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-21-04, 04:32 PM | Originally posted by Battousai2005 @Caterane: something i forgot to mention when i e-mailed my tactics. Qualls Feather token whip is considered a dancing weapon. Therefore, it cannot, as in TOK vs. Kaigan, attack beyond 10 ft. from its activator. Its in the DMG under dancing weapons. He is currently aware of this. (sadly enough. :sad: ) Originally posted by Barrel_Master How unforutnate, I didn't intend for the fight to be borring for you... I wonder how it turned out Well, that actually had more to do with storytelling than anything else. But yeah, i guess tactically it was hard to be motivated to spin a good story with two ppl just sitting there, "twang", "thump", "twang", "thump", etc.. Not saying it was the glads fault or anything. Tellish |
| Caterane02-21-04, 05:20 PM | This was a most entertaining fight!! Even I couldn`t sat still! The Pale-Rider vs Donkey (5) (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2637731#post2637731) Woohoo! |
| Arstimis02-21-04, 05:32 PM | Originally posted by Caterane This was a most entertaining fight!! Even I couldn`t sat still! The Pale-Rider vs Donkey (5) (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2637731#post2637731) Woohoo! Very entertaining, nice job Cat |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-21-04, 06:41 PM | Originally posted by Caterane This was a most entertaining fight!! Even I couldn`t sat still! The Pale-Rider vs Donkey (5) (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2637731#post2637731) Woohoo! Sometimes you just have to wonder about the gal of some ppl. Some ppl are just too cocky for their own good. lol That was funny as hell. Tellish |
| KerlanRayne02-21-04, 08:00 PM | Hey, how did Acid Arrow last 6 rounds! It's one round + one round per THREE caster levels. KerlanRayne |
| Market_Share02-21-04, 09:20 PM | I think i can answer that one. Being a 6th lvl caster, means my acid arrows last 3 rounds, and that was an extended acid arrow with double duration. Ergo 6 rounds. However, hats off to Donkey for some excellent archery. I was glad i gave you ample practice. Best wishes in the future. @Mo: just made Spike active again. Hehe, i wanna do some ghost-bustin' :D @ToK: cocky? Moi? Je ne sais pas quoi tu dis! :confused: SPIKE |
| Market_Share02-22-04, 12:55 AM | Done. Posted. Sorry for the lucky rolls in some spots. (or unlucky i guess, depends on if you're giving or recieving). SPIKE |
| Rosella02-22-04, 08:03 AM | I just realised that I am not able to do something when I have my familiar. I have been using my familiar for a +3 on spot for about three rounds now, am I allowed to erase it from my sheet and do the thing i'd like to? (It has been a miscalculation in planning from my side) -> This has to do with my problems with composite bow in the beginning, I changed my stats a little because of this and now my plannng is actually screwed over :sad: |
| sshuit02-22-04, 08:50 AM | @rosella : There isn't any problem with dismissing a familiar as far as I know. You would need to pay to get a new one if that's what you were hoping to do. Maybe if you were more specific? sshuit |
| Rosella02-22-04, 09:24 AM | well, if possible, I would like to erase it like it never existed; like returning the 100gp etc. removing the entry from the story and all. I figured out today that my original intent wasn't possible anymore due to some changed ability scores at lvl 3 or something. I took myself a familiar after that but didn't realise the new implications. With my previous stats everything would've been still fine. I'm adapting Ilene now for a history without familiar, I haven't had much use for the spot sofar anyways. (It helped maybe once during a fight with voliana, but I'll have to check to be sure) p.s; a familiar outside the arena but within a mile does grant the bonus feat as far as i'm aware? I once had somebody commenting that it doesn't.... |
| Bishop the Bardican02-22-04, 10:13 AM | spoiler alert . . . . . . . . . . . EDITED after making coffee: My confusion about the fight deals with a few points. How was divine favor available for conversion when it should have been cast the second round? Why did Urig spend a full round running? How can anyone else know what we are posting about when there are no tactics after the fight? Most important: congratulations to Laness and Tharkos, +1LA arcane spellcaster takes down barbarian with toughness feat one on one, not a bad day's work. |
| Myrridin02-22-04, 10:24 AM | I have my fight run and ready to post, unfortunately it's on my work computer. I will post it first thing Monday morning. Freakin' caster lvl 9 magic missile. :P |
| Moherajikuyx02-22-04, 11:33 AM | Rosella - if it's truely an error and you didn't lose the familiar that's pretty ok, in my view of the arena (testing builds has a learn from one's errors component) Of course there's a limit to how much one can edit; but as far as I know no one reached it up to date. |
| kattattack2202-22-04, 02:37 PM | Comments on Urig vs. Laness wow, Ony got written into fight that wasn't his. Awesome story. Poor Ony. (read the fight and you will understand) |
| Rosella02-22-04, 03:21 PM | @Moherajikuyx Ok; editing Ilene. I think you'll probably understand why I couldn't have a familiar..... |
| Ethendril02-22-04, 03:38 PM | How does sneak attack work with spells? Does it only apply when you cast a spell with an attack roll (melf's acid arrow, shocking grasp, etc.), or does it apply whenever a normal sneak attack would apply (example: fireball within 30' and target denied dex bonus, etc.)? Or does it ever work with it? I can't find any rule that helps clarify it for me. Thanks. -Ethendril |
| Tharkos02-22-04, 03:53 PM | Originally posted by kattattack22 Comments on Urig vs. Lanesse wow, Ony got written into fight that wasn't his. Awesome story. Poor Ony. (read the fight and you will understand) "Even a poor girl can have her lucky day sometime, cant she ? That saved me from having to do a major clean up on the dress again. You dont know how hard it is to get blood out of fabric so it doesnt show!!! I never liked savage guys anyway." I wonder why everyone is getting the name wrong btw ... its Laness and not Lanesse. |
| Arstimis02-22-04, 03:58 PM | Originally posted by Ethendril How does sneak attack work with spells? Does it only apply when you cast a spell with an attack roll (melf's acid arrow, shocking grasp, etc.), or does it apply whenever a normal sneak attack would apply (example: fireball within 30' and target denied dex bonus, etc.)? Or does it ever work with it? I can't find any rule that helps clarify it for me. Thanks. -Ethendril I don't know of any "rules" but I think sneak attack would only work when your have to make an attack roll against someone's AC. That shows how you have to aim to hit someone's weak spots. With spells like fireball and magic missle you aren't aiming for a weak spot, just trying to hit the person, could you imagine the amount of damage a rogue coudl do adding SA with a necklace of fireballs |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-22-04, 03:58 PM | Originally posted by Ethendril How does sneak attack work with spells? Does it only apply when you cast a spell with an attack roll (melf's acid arrow, shocking grasp, etc.), or does it apply whenever a normal sneak attack would apply (example: fireball within 30' and target denied dex bonus, etc.)? Or does it ever work with it? I can't find any rule that helps clarify it for me. Thanks. -Ethendril It's more than just what requires an attack roll. It also has to have a dmg roll attached to it. Fireball doesn't have an attack roll and thus no sneak. On the flip side, Enervation does have an attack roll, but the target gains negative energy levels, not actual dmg, so again no sneak. popular ones are shocking grasp, scorching ray, melf's, vampiric (and gain MASSIVE amounts of temp hp). Tellish |
| SnarkHunter02-22-04, 04:00 PM | Yo, Nevr vs. Targ is up. Close one (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2645702#post2645702) |
| Ethendril02-22-04, 04:03 PM | Thanks, Tellish and Arstimis. |
| kattattack2202-22-04, 04:19 PM | Originally posted by Tharkos "Even a poor girl can have her lucky day sometime, cant she ? That saved me from having to do a major clean up on the dress again. You dont know how hard it is to get blood out of fabric so it doesnt show!!! I never liked savage guys anyway." I wonder why everyone is getting the name wrong btw ... its Laness and not Lanesse. I took French in High School and College; I blame that for my misspellings. |
| Arstimis02-22-04, 08:22 PM | Nice fight Caterane he does not post what quaals feather token is. [It's a swan boat. It attacks with +10 melee ..... Hehe |
| Rosella02-22-04, 08:22 PM | Arena rules on allies: Its starting stats are calculated with 25 pt buy (elite array). The hps follow the MM method: half (max + min) hps. Can somebody point me to the location in the SRD where the 25 pt buy system is described? also, I don't understand how HP calc's work above. (especially elite array is puzzling me) |
| Arstimis02-22-04, 08:28 PM | Originally posted by Rosella Arena rules on allies: Its starting stats are calculated with 25 pt buy (elite array). The hps follow the MM method: half (max + min) hps. Can somebody point me to the location in the SRD where the 25 pt buy system is described? also, I don't understand how HP calc's work above. (especially elite array is puzzling me) Im sorry, i do not know the location in the SRD. Thier HP is calculated the same as a gladiators Hp, and as far as i've seen this is how hp is calculated. say your a monk(d8) first you take max(8) and add half minus.5 rounded up (4) then add half plus .5 round up (5) ...continue wizard(d4) 2 minus .5 round up(2) then 2 plus .5 round up(3)...continue so a 5th level wizard [4+2+3+2+3+(4*con mod)=HP If this is actually wrong, then me and some others will have to change it to be correct. |
| Rosella02-22-04, 08:45 PM | nope, that's the correct method for gladiators alright. (I just got taught by sshuit this week ;) ) Ok, so if I would take a random monster, and it would also gain experience just like me (a.k.a lvl up) does it get better HD or even class levels if it's intelligent enough? and I assume the HD will be 1/2HD+0.5. Still leaves me with the 25 pt. buy system, still can't figure out how that works and how I should apply it... same goes for feats that allies can gain. I believe these are rather basic questions, but I don't have much experience with allies. (I'm now getting in the neighbourhood of rather odd creations, like a 0-lvl ogre and somewhere a few lvls up a stormgiant and a ghost. I'd like to know how those things work before I have to face them...) EDIT; actually, that method is wrong! it's half max HD + 0.5 all the time, rounded down like all core stuff. example; fighter = d10: first lvl = 10 HP, 2nd = 15, 3rd = 21. EDIT2: well, your explanation is wrong, but somehow the numbers are right. doh.. (in core, you never ever round up) |
| Arstimis02-22-04, 09:00 PM | Originally posted by Rosella EDIT; actually, that method is wrong! it's half max HD + 0.5 all the time, rounded down like all core stuff. example; fighter = d10: first lvl = 10 HP, 2nd = 15, 3rd = 21. EDIT2: well, your explanation is wrong, but somehow the numbers are right. doh.. (in core, you never ever round up) Ya, i figured that much...but i just knew my numbers matched the correct numbers..so i made my own way of doing it It works. :) |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-22-04, 09:12 PM | Nice job running the fight Cat. just one question, and i never thought about this before hand either, so it's all new i'm sure to everyone else, but a whip with 15' reach does it suffer from the cover i'm behind? [Silencius: Whip (12+10-8(cover)+2(snipe)) Just wondering, because i thought for a target to be provided with cover, they'd be the ones having to be near it, not the attacker. Now that's usually the case in melee, because 5' is very relative. But in this case i have 15' reach. Just curious for the future. I really mis-read the token:whip and that's completely my fault. I let one slip out of the bag on that one for sure. @Battousis: the token:whip is clearly marked on my character sheet. I read you tactics and saw you had a concern with this. It was always spell out in full which token i had. People of the academy, I would like to thank Battousis for very good tactics to try and counter my sneaking, i would like to slap myself silly for mis-reading the dancing weapon ability, and most of all curse the dice gods whom without their support this would not have been possible. :D Looks like this week is a week of upsets. So, who else from the favored will fall? Tellish |
| Magagumo02-22-04, 10:28 PM | Speaking of that Tellish, guess what happens when a Cauchemar rolls a 20 while using full (+15 damage) power attack? Read the Harvester v. Cauchemar fight to find out :devil: |
| Arstimis02-22-04, 11:14 PM | Originally posted by Magagumo Speaking of that Tellish, guess what happens when a Cauchemar rolls a 20 while using full (+15 damage) power attack? Read the Harvester v. Cauchemar fight to find out :devil: Nice job modding Magagumo, I enjoyed reading it. Poor Harvester, next time he might want to be a bit more careful and not underestimate the Cauchemar so much;) |
| Caterane02-22-04, 11:29 PM | Ha! But do you want to know what happens when a 5billion-d6 impacts with Zorander? Read it here: Zorander vs Sir Roger (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2649449#post2649449) *FFFSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHTTT* |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-22-04, 11:29 PM | And the upsets just keep on piling up. I guess for most of us "Today was a good day to die!" :D Anyone have any thoughts on the whip, 15' reach, behind cover thingy? Tellish |
| Caterane02-22-04, 11:32 PM | @ToK: I see no rule that tells of an exception due to reach. Imagine someone crouching behind a 5ft rock with his back to the stone (+8 cover) and slinging the whip back above his head. Sounds like -8 from cover... |
| Arstimis02-22-04, 11:32 PM | Originally posted by Caterane Ha! But do you want to know what happens when a 5billion-d6 impacts with Zorander? Read it here: Zorander vs Sir Roger (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2649449#post2649449) *FFFSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHTTT* OMG Cat! Only you could pull that story off.......wow, nice job |
| Tellish_of_Ket02-23-04, 12:41 AM | Originally posted by Caterane @ToK: I see no rule that tells of an exception due to reach. Imagine someone crouching behind a 5ft rock with his back to the stone (+8 cover) and slinging the whip back above his head. Sounds like -8 from cover... Well, i'm not talking about an exception, i'm talking about NORMAL rules. A person with a pole arm standing behind an obstacle granting him cover, striking someone 5' away from it, does not suffer the cover bonus because his opponent is not provided with any cover. Now if that person out in the open had a reach weapon to strike back, he'd suffer the cover bonus because the first guy is afforded it. Same goes with archery. If i'm standing behind cover and shooting at someone 50' away, they don't get +4 cover ac because i'm behind cover, regardless of how much cover i wish to use (other than full cover). Any why would i be "crouching with my back to the stone?" Advanced cover doesn't say any such thing. I'm simply peeking out and with a deft hand (or in this case, dancing whip) striking out at my target whom is clearly out in the open. That doesn't sound like -8 to me. That was my original question, why was sintius granted +8 cover bonus when he wasn't afforded the cover and made no effort to benefit from cover? That's all. That makes a few of those misses, into hits easily. Don't care about the loss, i know you hate stealthy-cheese so no biggy. But just curious is why. Tellish |
| LLMadCow02-23-04, 02:00 AM | I will post Arty vs. Angosh tomorrow afternoon. I will post Grimlock vs. Kiri'endelas either tomorrow night or Tuesday morning. Lothar has officially retired. Gader'el et Tsur’ac al Betnau will be taking Lothar's place. @Caterane - Check the RP thread. :cool: :angel: vs. :devil: Bring it on! |
| Moherajikuyx02-23-04, 05:08 AM | :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :rofl:!!! :D Gold Cat Award. -hps: for simplicity's sake, all allies's hps are calculated using the MM method. Allies are less vital then gladiators. Ally hps =1/2 sum[all HDs] (max HD +1): 2nd lvl wizard has 2d4= 2.5+2.5 = 5 hps Gladiator HDs: Max first HD + 1/2 sum[all HDs but 1st] (max HD +1): 2nd lvl wizard has 2d4 = 4+2.5 = 6.5 hps, fractions discarded, so 6. *Edit* -cover: just think of a sniper behind a wall. He has the advantages of cover without the hindrances. Just my .02: I didn't read the fight really carefully. |
| Tharkos02-23-04, 06:26 AM | Originally posted by Caterane Imagine someone crouching behind a 5ft rock with his back to the stone (+8 cover) and slinging the whip back above his head. Sounds like -8 from cover... Is there any rule that allows "rear attacks" for humanoids ? I doubt this would work without an actual concealment-miss-chance for the one you wanted to attack since the backside is the side where you can be sneaked due to not being able to see the opponent. And thus the creature you want to attack should get concealment. Another version would be to just trying to hit "the square" ... kinda like an area attack and a reach weapon might be able to do it, what the damage could be I dont know. Fighters can turn around in a fight to switch to another opponent, but this situation would not allow that and so this kind of attack is not in any rule IMO (would be great to have though for some stylish monk-kicks or backward thrusts). |
| Myrridin02-23-04, 09:04 AM | The Felix vs Dra'Kel fight is posted. Please be kind and let me know if there are any glaring errors in the fight. I tried to follow the tactics as close as possible. |
| Moherajikuyx02-23-04, 09:48 AM | Hehe druids are tough to mod :) I see these minor issues: - rnd 5: summon swarm is a 1 full round casting time spell (like other summons) so it can't be readied and it requires one full round. - rnd 6: I don't think you have to be in range to mantain concentration on a spell. Other opinions please. Anyways, the swarm would have stayed there other 2 rounds (duration conc. +2) - round 16: (With no line of sight, you can't shoot him with your crossbow) this is false, you may but you suffer concealment, 50% in that case. Welcome among Us Who Err :D |
| Arstimis02-23-04, 09:58 AM | Originally posted by Myrridin The Felix vs Dra'Kel fight is posted. Please be kind and let me know if there are any glaring errors in the fight. I tried to follow the tactics as close as possible. The fight looks good, it was very close oh, and im not sure about this, but i think felix would have had to make a ride check when his mount made those attacks |
| Myrridin02-23-04, 10:41 AM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Hehe druids are tough to mod :) I see these minor issues: - rnd 5: summon swarm is a 1 full round casting time spell (like other summons) so it can't be readied and it requires one full round. - rnd 6: I don't think you have to be in range to mantain concentration on a spell. Other opinions please. Anyways, the swarm would have stayed there other 2 rounds (duration conc. +2) - round 16: (With no line of sight, you can't shoot him with your crossbow) this is false, you may but you suffer concealment, 50% in that case. Welcome among Us Who Err :D I forgot about not being able to ready the full round casting time spells. I wasn't sure about the range, if that's true, I can go back and make the two Fort rolls, and attack rolls. I figured since Felix moved out of the range of the spell, it wouldn't be able to follow him that far. Is that wrong? I'll make the shot at Round 16, if you want. I don't think it would change the outcome that much, but can still do it. Thanks for the notes too. :) I thought it was a Full Attack to make a Ride check. Since you have 1 attack.....hmmm....if Jindle wants, I'll go back and reroll the ride checks. Otherwise, thanks for the input, and I'll do so next time. Especially since EVERYONE rides a mount. |
| Caterane02-23-04, 12:22 PM | Well, the thing is that cover is a double-edged sword: if you benefit from cover - that is because the pillar covers half of your body relative towards your opponoment - then the same goes for your opponoment. Reach weapons are no exception here. |
| sshuit02-23-04, 12:36 PM | Hey Cat! re: Zippy and Zorander : Great story I enjoyed it very much. Star Trek is the best :-) Thanks for running it! sshuit |
| Druid Roxors02-23-04, 01:00 PM | Originally posted by Myrridin I forgot about not being able to ready the full round casting time spells. I wasn't sure about the range, if that's true, I can go back and make the two Fort rolls, and attack rolls. I figured since Felix moved out of the range of the spell, it wouldn't be able to follow him that far. Is that wrong? I'll make the shot at Round 16, if you want. I don't think it would change the outcome that much, but can still do it. Thanks for the notes too. :) I thought it was a Full Attack to make a Ride check. Since you have 1 attack.....hmmm....if Jindle wants, I'll go back and reroll the ride checks. Otherwise, thanks for the input, and I'll do so next time. Especially since EVERYONE rides a mount. And, If i remember correctly, swarms do not require attack rolls. The swarm deals automatic damage if it stays within the square ocupied by another creature. (check the Bat swarm entry) Both the rider and the horse need to check for nausea and damage. Edit: Also, the swarm would provoke attack of oportunity, i think you didn't do that either. |
| Myrridin02-23-04, 01:24 PM | The swarm has a BAB listed for it, and I couldn't find anything about it auto-hitting in the SRD, or my 3.5 MM. SO I had it make attacks with it's BAB. Yeah, I missed the AoO that Felix should've gotten on the swarm. If the swarm auto-hits each round, I'll go back and rerun it, as that'd only be fair. |
| Druid Roxors02-23-04, 01:34 PM | Originally posted by Myrridin The swarm has a BAB listed for it, and I couldn't find anything about it auto-hitting in the SRD, or my 3.5 MM. SO I had it make attacks with it's BAB. Yeah, I missed the AoO that Felix should've gotten on the swarm. If the swarm auto-hits each round, I'll go back and rerun it, as that'd only be fair. Here it is, for your convinience. 3.5 SRD - Bat Swarm Combat A bat swarm seeks to surround and attack any warm-blooded prey it encounters. The swarm deals 1d6 points of damage to any creature whose space it occupies at the end of its move. Distraction (Ex): Any living creature that begins its turn with a swarm in its space must succeed on a DC 11 Fortitude save or be nauseated for 1 round. The save DC is Constitution-based. Wounding (Ex): Any living creature damaged by a bat swarm continues to bleed, losing 1 hit point per round thereafter. Multiple wounds do not result in cumulative bleeding loss. The bleeding can be stopped by a DC 10 Heal check or the application of a cure spell or some other healing magic. Blindsense (Ex): A bat swarm notices and locates creatures within 20 feet. Opponents still have total concealment against the bat swarm (but swarm attacks ignore concealment). You can't hold the action, Id recomend to cast Produce flame, throw a lick of flame and move to the other side of the column. He would have to come near and then you can 5ft step and shoot the swarm. You could have also healed the wolf in the end, or use the spells to swarm him (SNA). Edit: Changed Teh for The, several times. Druid cant direct the swarm |
| Caterane02-23-04, 01:50 PM | A swarm does auto-damage. No attack roll required. Felix, Halifax and Sujin had to save every round for distraction. Being hit once from the swarm would`ve resulted in multiple woundings. The swarm damages everything within its radius, so Halifax too which wasn`t even listed. And you cannot ready a charge because charging is a fullround action and you can only ready standard actions, or less. There are other minor errors but these are the most obvious and they definately altered the outcome. Myrridin, I would suggest you correct the mistakes before Motherbast returns. We haven`t seen anything :) PS: do such a thing with Jindl and you`re meat ;) |
| Druid Roxors02-23-04, 01:54 PM | Originally posted by Caterane PS: do such a thing with Jindl and you`re meat ;) :rofl: Edit: Just remembered, you can negate the first AoO by summoning the swarm within their square. Perfectly valid from the description of "Summon Swarm" in the 3.5 SRD. |
| Myrridin02-23-04, 02:58 PM | Now I'm looking, and it appears that bludgeoning does full damage to swarms. I apologize for all the questions, I don't usually have people summon swarms in games. :P You can only get the Wounding property from the swarm once however, according to what it says in the MM. |
| Magagumo02-23-04, 03:03 PM | There was a slight error in the printing of bat swarms, as they are not diminutive creatures, but are actually tiny creatures, so yes, bludgeoning weapons hurt the bats and rats, while spiders are immune to all weapon damage I believe (not sitting with a book in front of me). Swarms are a tricky beast to learn, just rem the Fort save each round, and that they auto-hit everything in their 10' squares, and you'll be fine. Speaking of MB, where's Iron v. Bruno? ;) Zorander is unpdated and actually listed as being ready for this week's fight. I learn, albeit slowly ;) |
| Myrridin02-23-04, 03:26 PM | Updated the Felix vs Dra'Kel fight. Yeah, those were a couple major mistakes, I believe they're fixed now. Let me know what you think. Thanks for the help in my first moderated fight. :) |
| Arstimis02-23-04, 04:19 PM | I also have a couple questions about the fight. After I read felix's tactics, I dontt understand why he pulled out his mace when he did, he cast a spell on his lance and specifically stated to charge sujin right away. I also think he would have charge dra'kel right when he hurled his first fire ball at him. Healing was effectively useless... Cause 1d6+5 does more damage than 1d8+2 can heal. Also it didn't seem you took notice that halifax can double move, while felix still has his actions |
| SnarkHunter02-23-04, 04:23 PM | Jindl vs. Rito is up. Not really much to say bout it, but feel free to make your own decision. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2654837#post2654837) Edit: Btw Rito, SKymoon is ready this week and has been bumped to 11th level. |
| Myrridin02-23-04, 04:26 PM | How are you going to charge Dra'Kel when he's 15' up the column? You can't reach that high and hit him. I was following your orders with the healing, "If my life gets below 10 i want to use the potion of clw, then sacrifice doom for spontaneous casting of clw, then if i have to then cast cmw." You didn't have a CMW, or access to it. Sujin moved around the column, and would've continually moved so you couldn't charge him. If you'd like, I'll take that back, and you won't fight, you'll just get eaten by the swarm, and shoot a crossbow bolt every other round. I'm not sure how you can charge something like that. If you can tell me, I'll go ahead and do that. Edit: You had no way to deal with the swarm, you listed no tactics for it, so I had to improvise. If you'd like, I'll switch you back to your lance for the whole fight... |
| ^Rayne^02-23-04, 05:26 PM | Hi Gang and Mo, I am back! Sorry again about leaving without finishing the fight I was supposed to run. Seeing as I am in the negatives now I will only run one of my fighters this week. I'm thinking probably Vryk since if he loses he goes up in level since it will be his third straight loss. I'm not certain yet but in any event I will run one fight this week so I'm not in the negatives anymore and then next week I'll go back to using both kobolds and running one fight. Caterane thanks again for helping me out. To the two players I was supposed to DM for, again I want to say sorry. Anyway it is good to be back. See you in the arena soon! Rayne |
| Caterane02-23-04, 06:15 PM | Ok, let`s begin it anew... :rolleyes: The Harvester challenges Voliana @Mo: You can put Ebelin and Vandaeris to the inactive list. I will NOT retire them but at the moment I have to collect credits and then I want to put emphasize on the Harvesters and my new upcoming character. |
| MotherBast02-23-04, 06:20 PM | I'm here, I'm here. Sorry to have disapeard. I went Car shopping this weekend and bought myself a nice new Miata. 22 hours later the car is skipping time and I have to take it to the shop.... then my current car, a ford escort, dies.... I have such rotten luck with cars. anyway, the Iron vs. Bruno fight is over. It should be posted in a little bit. I was really rooting for the looser in this fight. The stratagy employed was very sound, and even though he lost, he looked very good in the fight, very strong. And about the Dra'kel fight. I didn't ever see the version that exists befor now, but the one I read looks good. |
| Arstimis02-23-04, 06:22 PM | First off, Felix is not my gladiator, so please dont ask me how I am going to do stuff with my gladiator. I am bringing up some points i didnt before, since it didnt effect the outcome before I was following your orders with the healing, "If my life gets below 10 i want to use the potion of clw, then sacrifice doom for spontaneous casting of clw, then if i have to then cast cmw." You didn't have a CMW, or access to it. Felix didnt have access to cure moderate wounds..but he did have cure minor wounds (both abbreviated cmw)....and you did end up using it Also, dont you think it might have made a bit more sense to get out of the range of produce flame. Felix is 20+ft from dra'kal, so having halifax double move to 120+ ft, out of the range of the spell, and have the healing actually heal, rather than give dra'kal more time to do more damage Sujin moved around the column, and would've continually moved so you couldn't charge him. If you'd like, I'll take that back, and you won't fight, you'll just get eaten by the swarm, and shoot a crossbow bolt every other round. I'm not sure how you can charge something like that. If you can tell me, I'll go ahead and do that. Felix (1, -1) moves to (3, -27) with his Heavy Flail out and attacks Sujin. Dar'Kel begins casting. So he could attack with the flail and not with a lance? the lance would have had an 87.5% chance to kill Sujin in the first attack (a 1 for attack roll would leave sujin with 1 hp left) Also...did you use the right map and grid..or just make mistakes with the numbers, cause (4,-26)where dra'kal was, does not have a pillar...so im kinda confused You had no way to deal with the swarm, you listed no tactics for it, so I had to improvise. If you'd like, I'll switch you back to your lance for the whole fight... Not once did Felix ask to take out his mace. He cast magic weapon on his lance with the intent on using it. When swarm was cast Felix probably would have gotten out of it as soon as he could, like he did his fight 2 weeks ago against drakal. since the swarm was close to dra'kal, it would have then went after him for 2 rounds, as dra'kal has no control over who/what the swarm attacks. Other than that i have a couple other questions Obscuring mist: would this spell give concealment to anyone effected by it (in this fights case, Felix gets concealment from Dra'kal). You shouldnt be able to see from inside it to outside it, any easier that it is to see outside to inside. I also noticed something that was kinda odd. When Dra'kal made the fire attacks, all the rolls were the same even after you redid the fight. But Felix's first searing light attack roll changed from"attempts to burn Dra'Kel with hit (Attk: 12+1=13 vs Touch AC 15, miss!)"(which actually would have hit..he has +3 to ranged attacks) to "intent on strking Dra'Kel (Attk: 4+1=5 vs Touch AC 15, miss!)" im just wondering why/how that happened Again, this is not my character so dont say i had bad tactics |
| Arstimis02-23-04, 06:32 PM | I had a question about modding and having two characters. Is it possible to have 2 characters, and have them both fight, but to not mod a fight, even though you can. The reason you wouldnt mod a fight is because there are so many moderators that want credits, so there isnt enough fights to give you one to mod. Im just wondering if this is possible. oh...and I think i may want to make another character, and mod a fight a week...would do more, but school takes most of my time |
| sshuit02-23-04, 06:57 PM | Voliana AKA :b: accepts the challenge by death's avatar, the Harvester If she wins, she wishes to be known as Lady Death. :P |
| Ethendril02-23-04, 07:01 PM | @sshuit: Just don't try those sleep arrows again... THAT didn't work very well. |
| sshuit02-23-04, 07:05 PM | @ethendril : It's not easy being Cheesy :P :b: |
| MotherBast02-23-04, 08:00 PM | Arst: About obscuring Mist. The miss chance from it depends on how much of the mist is between you and your opponit. at the edge of the mist, you have 20% concealment, if your in the mist, and anyting outside it has no concealment aginst you. If you ar 10' in the mist, you have total concealment, and anthing outside the mist would have 5' of mist between them and you, giving them 20% concealment. Another 5' into the mist and now you still have total concealment, but everything outside the mist now has 10' of mist between you and it, giving it total concealment at well. So 5' of mist is 20%, 10 feet of mist is total. Inside the mist the square you occupy dosen't count as being between you and your opponit, but it does count twords giving you concealment vs. your opponit. You will notice in the fight that every ranged attack Dra'kel made was fromt the very edge of the mist, so his target had no concealment. Anyway, Iron vs. Bruno is up. The story is short and to the point, I was tired. |
| Magagumo02-23-04, 08:39 PM | Hmm, I don't know exactly how this changed the fight, MB, but the Concentration check on a spell also includes the spell's level, so with 30 points of damage, Bruno would actually have failed some of those checks. On the other hand, the rules do not say I need to verbally give Agamemmnon instructions during the fight, or at least he is allowed to walk in with the instructions to run and attack Iron ( I could be wrong, but this is what I have understood from fights in the past). Therefore, while Iron's continual silences were quite effective at halting my spells, Aga should theorectically be going after him during the battle. I won, so I'm not inclined to ask for a re-run of course, so I will leave that decision to the other Elder Mods. Over all, it looked solidly run, and I understand the difficulty with cars and red-inking most of Moh's tactics ^_~... but I'm not sure if we don't have some major errors in this one. Edit: One other curiosity, I have no idea how a 1d10+10 empowered False Life could result in 20 hp, as it either is 3+10=13x1.5= 19 or 4+10=14 x 1.5= 21.. just curious if you remembered to empower the whole spell? |
| Druid Roxors02-23-04, 08:53 PM | Originally posted by Magagumo Edit: One other curiosity, I have no idea how a 1d10+10 empowered False Life could result in 20 hp, as it either is 3+10=13x1.5= 19 or 4+10=14 x 1.5= 21.. just curious if you remembered to empower the whole spell? Simple, (or rather not) when you empower a spell which uses an ammount that varries with level, that ammount is exempt from the empowering effect. That is an official rulling by WOTC. Watch Fireseeds ((1d8 + 1/lvl) x 8) x 1.5 Any spell that adds your level as damage cannot be empowered in a standard manner. You will give as an example magic missile. 1d4 +1 is not the same as 1d4 + 1/lvl max 1. Thats the official rulling. Only numerical dice and fixed numbers are empowered. I suspect the empowered effect was a (7)x1.5 + 10 = 20 |
| Arstimis02-23-04, 08:53 PM | Originally posted by MotherBast Arst: About obscuring Mist. The miss chance from it depends on how much of the mist is between you and your opponit. at the edge of the mist, you have 20% concealment, if your in the mist, and anyting outside it has no concealment aginst you. If you ar 10' in the mist, you have total concealment, and anthing outside the mist would have 5' of mist between them and you, giving them 20% concealment. Another 5' into the mist and now you still have total concealment, but everything outside the mist now has 10' of mist between you and it, giving it total concealment at well. So 5' of mist is 20%, 10 feet of mist is total. Inside the mist the square you occupy dosen't count as being between you and your opponit, but it does count twords giving you concealment vs. your opponit. You will notice in the fight that every ranged attack Dra'kel made was fromt the very edge of the mist, so his target had no Anyway, Iron vs. Bruno is up. The story is short and to the point, I was tired. ah ok, I didn't know ranged increments worked that way, but I think there was at least one attck that was at 10 ft into the mist |
| Druid Roxors02-23-04, 08:57 PM | @ MotherBast: Why cant he activate his boots of speed in the first round? Activating them counts as a free action, he can use the rest of his actions as he pleases, even ready them. |
| Magagumo02-23-04, 08:59 PM | Mind if you could direct me to this announcement, Druid? Jindl mentioned it before, and I am willing to believe you, but I haven't found it in the FAQ or the PHB... I just want to know where people are getting this rule from *half-smile* |
| Kaigan02-23-04, 08:59 PM | so is the fight going to stay as it is or will it be changed? i'm just curious, cuz i leveled up my character before reading the modification so i will change it back to level 3 if i have to tomorrow. just to clear some things up, my range attack is +3, so i should have hit on one of the attacks, and i meant cmw as cure minor wounds, also i was entitled an extra 1st level spell, but i guess i learned my lesson to put "X's" for spells that i do not list. I still do not know why i changed to my mace? i never wanted to use it unless i was unmounted, but anyways... |
| Kaigan02-23-04, 09:11 PM | Hmm.. when he was throwing the fire at me, wouldn't it have made more sense for me to move away and heal, instead of just heal right next to him so that he can hit me? i mean if you had my character double move the horse 100ft away and then cast clw then it would have been a different story. |
| Druid Roxors02-23-04, 09:33 PM | Originally posted by Kaigan Hmm.. when he was throwing the fire at me, wouldn't it have made more sense for me to move away and heal, instead of just heal right next to him so that he can hit me? i mean if you had my character double move the horse 100ft away and then cast clw then it would have been a different story. But remember about the swarms, if they had attacked it would have been a different story Edit: havnt checked for the changes on the fight tho. @ Magagumo: Ill try to find it, I didnt save the source or the official text. |
| Arstimis02-23-04, 09:46 PM | Originally posted by Druid Roxors But remember about the swarms, if they had attacked it would have been a different story Edit: havnt checked for the changes on the fight tho. actually the swarms now did auto damage.....but sitting there and saoking up damage is just stupid... |
| Magagumo02-23-04, 10:14 PM | Reading over the fight again, MB, I notice that Iron's AC would have been three hgiher, causing Aga's second hti to miss. However, as Bruno made it to the other side of the arena with Iron's flamestrikes run out and his searing light and silences also gone, it is likely that the cleric would have died in the enxt round, or the one following it, when Aga cleaved him right good. With this in mind, I am willing not to debate the issue of verbally issuing commands to a skeleton, and will be leveling Bruno up. Sorry to make a big deal of things, but I wanted to be fair and raise the issues I saw, despite my win. @Druid I can see the logic behind not allowing non-random variables to be empowered, what with the potentiality for abuse with some very high level spells (Tenser's Transformation for example). I would still like to ehar the source (probably a new Dragon magazine), but I will stop trying to get too much life ;). |
| Druid Roxors02-23-04, 10:29 PM | Originally posted by Arstimis actually the swarms now did auto damage.....but sitting there and saoking up damage is just stupid... True, spending 2 rounds healing 2 damage is pointless, since his minimum damage is 3. Since I cannot see your character page within the fight I guess you still had means of attack, that would have been your best bet. In any case, you had sustained too much damage already. What I would have done is Outrun the bat swarm during the first round it hit, and let the wolf die within the swarm. Of course, that should have been part of the Tactics, and the dm shouldn't be of such help. |
| kattattack2202-23-04, 10:40 PM | Originally posted by Magagumo @Druid I can see the logic behind not allowing non-random variables to be empowered, what with the potentiality for abuse with some very high level spells (Tenser's Transformation for example). I would still like to ehar the source (probably a new Dragon magazine), but I will stop trying to get too much life ;). [/B] Not directed at me, but I was 90% sure that non-random variables couldn't be empowered and sure enough... From the SRD EMPOWER SPELL [METAMAGIC] Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by one-half. Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables. An empowered spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell’s actual level. |
| Magagumo02-23-04, 10:50 PM | Yea, its the variable line actually that determines this result. You see, Ray of Enfeeblement and False Life do have variables in them ;) |
| Druid Roxors02-23-04, 11:17 PM | Originally posted by Magagumo Yea, its the variable line actually that determines this result. You see, Ray of Enfeeblement and False Life do have variables in them ;) Indeed, but the counterquote for this argument is the fact that magic missile is the example given in the feat, and it has a fixed value of +1. This crated noise back then when we got a sage response. Too bad I can't remember the location of the source. |
| Magagumo02-23-04, 11:21 PM | I agree with you Druid, as my point is that the word "variable" states (albiet vaguley) that caster-level based numbers don't count. Works well enough for me, I figure it's still worth the extra 1-5 points of health and 1-3 strength penalty ;) |
| MotherBast02-23-04, 11:32 PM | @Mag: About the false life, I didn't think the +10 got incresed, so I just rolled 1d10, and another 1d10 and devided the second role by two. I don't remember what the two rolls were at the moment, but the total was 20. As far as the spell level being added to the DC, I thought that is was also. I had orrigonaly factored that into the check, and then I looked at the skill and it only said 10 + damage delt. After you mentioned it again I checked again, and on page 170, far from the concentration skill it does say the spell level is added when casting a spell. You would have actually failed the invis spell. The reason Iron's AC was lower was because I factored the Invis into Iron's AC. I couldn't remember if it gave a bonus to attack, or negative to AC, but the number was what was important. I just applied it to AC. Since that invis spell shouldn't have resolved though, his AC would have been higher, and Aga would have missed on the AoO and one of his attacks. As far as ordering your undead before the battle, that is a "free action", and with the exception of "pre-buffs", no actions can be taken before the fight, so you must give him a command on the first round for him to do anything. And the spell says the undead may be comanded verbaly, so he would have to be able to hear you to be commanded. This is the same as the "mounted Combat" on an undead mount situation. You may only give your undead commands when you can take a "free-action", which means only during your turn. Reguardless, you had listed in your tactics to cast improved invis on Aga and then to order him to attack, so obviously you had not yet ordered him to attack when you entered the arena, or he would not be standing waiting on you to cast the improved invis. As far as the boots of speed, to be honest, I just didn't check to see what kind of action it was to activate them. I assumed like most magic items it was a standard, and since he never had a chance to preform a standard action, I never even looked at the entry. The only impact I see it would have had on the fight is that in the final round Iron would have had an action readyed to attack you. Concedering that, and the fact he would have had 32 more HP, and only have taken 40 damage from Aga, I feel the need to roll his readied attack against you and go from there. I don't wana cheat MO out of this fight. I hope you understand. If you survive the attack, you will win the fight for sure. [edit] Ok, I changed the fight. Iron activated the boots on Round 1. The invis never resolved. I apoligize to MO for the first version of the fight, which I practicaly cheated him out of. I apoligize to Mag for declaring him the winner prematurly. The two most glaring errors in the fight are now corrected. Both gladiators should check the new fight, mainly only rounds 7 and 8, as the only other change was the activation of the boots on round 1. |
| Druid Roxors02-23-04, 11:47 PM | Yep, true |
| Arstimis02-24-04, 12:40 AM | oopps |
| Druid Roxors02-24-04, 12:45 AM | Originally posted by Arstimis actually the swarms now did auto damage.....but sitting there and saoking up damage is just stupid... Dejavu, I responded to this same post a few posts ago... wierd.. hehe |
| Druid Roxors02-24-04, 12:48 AM | @ LLMadCow: Just a little doubt about the fight, invisible (regular invisibility) characters become visible moments before attacking or after the attack? Since Arti had his attack ready for the enemy's appearance, he could have hit before he died. (anyways, he would have lost, but just want to know about how invisibility is handled here) |
| Jindl02-24-04, 12:58 AM | Originally posted by Druid Roxors @ LLMadCow: Just a little doubt about the fight, invisible (regular invisibility) characters become visible moments before attacking or after the attack? Since Arti had his attack ready for the enemy's appearance, he could have hit before he died. (anyways, he would have lost, but just want to know about how invisibility is handled here) Check out Lance vs Alric, which I just posted. You'll see how I view it as happening. Hint: I think your readied action is triggered by him becoming visible. He doesn't become visible until he successfully attempts an attack. Hence you can't trigger a readied action until after he makes an attack roll and becomes visible. Another hook for Lance vs Alric - The winner rolled a natural 20. The loser also rolled a natural 20. I think these guys have been hanging around with Zorander. -Jindl |
| Arstimis02-24-04, 02:17 AM | Originally posted by Druid Roxors True, spending 2 rounds healing 2 damage is pointless, since his minimum damage is 3. Since I cannot see your character page within the fight I guess you still had means of attack, that would have been your best bet. In any case, you had sustained too much damage already. What I would have done is Outrun the bat swarm during the first round it hit, and let the wolf die within the swarm. Of course, that should have been part of the Tactics, and the dm shouldn't be of such help. First, (again..feels like dejavue saying this) Felix is not my gladiator. It is Kaigan's, pretty easy to tell as he posted about his gladiator. I completely agree with what you said about the tactics...some people just dont put enough thought into them, or forget something about thier opponent. One thing though i think should have happened is that Sujin should have been charged at with a lance for Felix's first attack..that would have put the wolf out right away also i had a question about the lances reach, on a horse I think Felix would have been able to reach Dra'Kal, who was 15' up. 10'(reach of lance)+5'(being up on the horse) i dont know..im probably wrong |
| Rosella02-24-04, 02:38 AM | logic says no for that; you're not 2 meters higher than normal with a horse, besides, you won't be able to put your weight into the thrust very well, just imagine it and you know what I mean :) Tickling him is possible, perhaps, but charging? no. |
| Jindl02-24-04, 02:47 AM | Originally posted by Arstimis or forget something about thier opponent. Yep, it happens to the best of us. Like when Rito RAN towards Bilo and got sneak attacked into oblivion. Or when the Elder tried using 4 fireballs against the nimble Hurtz and his cursed evasion ability. Or, like our dear assassin Kelek, who seems to have forgotten what the major benefit of a hand of glory is. But was Brackin smart enough to remember? Check it out (Brackin vs Kelek is posted). -Jindl |
| Arstimis02-24-04, 02:51 AM | Originally posted by Rosella logic says no for that; you're not 2 meters higher than normal with a horse, besides, you won't be able to put your weight into the thrust very well, just imagine it and you know what I mean :) Tickling him is possible, perhaps, but charging? no. Logic says you actually could attack him. the horse is a large creature, so you get at least another 5ft from him, and the 10 ft lance should allow you to attack him. I know charging is very much out of the question, but being under him and stabbing up with the lance seems very logical only normal damage 1d8+str. Also its just as easy to thrust up with a lance as it would be to hold a lance straight in front of you to thrust foward |
| Moherajikuyx02-24-04, 06:49 AM | Druid Roxors: no AoO from swarms. Check MM. ^Rayne^: welcome back!! SnarkHunter - Rito: I did the 3 stages of subsequent buffs to prevent a costly dispel; I wanted to have a high DC so I wrote to not drink the enlarge person. I believe it's quite clear. I fear that you didn't pay much attention to Rito, well, OK that can be due but hey he didn't have a single fly potion with himself. Can you rewrite the used items with these things in mind? Note: I hope you'll double check the enlarge potion thing. Anyways, the potion takes a full round, so would it be on when it was dispelled? Or would it be not still activated, and thus not prone to dispel? MB - I'm ashamed by the quantity of red ink on my tactics :blush: something (few) was caused by the fact that you assumed my situational tactics to be like the other ones (for example, the t. shield): they were to be used situationally, so I knew that Iron would have wasted some time. Most things were caused by my lack of knowledge of the advanced levels, admittedly. Only thing was hiding behind the colums: I intended Iron to "stretch" in the littler spaces, going at half speed. Isn't it possible? Anyways it didn't affect the fight. About the second email, I wrote "ignore this if you already began". Thanks for changing the last round. I didn't even see the first version and so, no problem. SPOILERS (sorry if I didn't write this earlier) ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ I'm so proud... IRON WON WITHOUT AN ALLY AND AGAINST AN UNDEAD! And a big one btw. Of course being a cleric helps. But I think that this proves that allies aren't necessarily unbalanced... Let's see how it affects the polls. Originally posted by Jindl Yep, it happens to the best of us. Like when Rito RAN towards Bilo and got sneak attacked into oblivion. :rolleyes: Heh actually it wasn't forgotten. It was a calculated risk, and Rito had more than 60% of surviving the first round. Hey how are you still revolting this fight! |
| MotherBast02-24-04, 07:07 AM | Horses do not add to the reach of your character, up or in any other way. When mounted, you are assumed to occupy all spaces your horse occupies. It does not add anything to your hight, because you do not occupy the space above the horse. I see a lot of times on fights Mods will caluclate stuff like the number of feet jumped + reach + hight of attacker to get the hight it can attack yet. I haven't seen where it would actually impact teh fight, but the hight of the character is irrelevent, as only the space it occupies has any barring on reach. If it is 13 feet tall, but only occupies a 10 x 10 foot square, it's hight should be concidered 10 feet. Exact feet are irrelevent, and only 5' squares matter. so large = 10 feer. If it jumps 17 feet it has now moved up 3 5' squares, so it is now 15' up occupying 10' of space, and with a 10' reach could attack something as high as 35', the highest square it threatens. This is the way all those jumping attacks should be calculated. A lot of people forget that movement up is also mesured in 5' squares. Thats the reason a charging character couldn't jump a 5 x 5 foot object. It would mean he moves 5' up, which is exactly the same as moving 5' left, or 5' right, or 5' down. it isen't a stright line. Mo, concerning the pillar. You mean "squeezing". Streching is getting bigger. Still, you can't squeeze behind something. To squeeze, you must move at half speed, which you could have done, but it only makes you small enough to fit between, around, or behind the object. You would not become 5 x 5, in your case you would have became 10 x 5, only as long as you remained behind the pillar. Still no total cover, but I at least see your intention now. |
| Moherajikuyx02-24-04, 07:35 AM | Hehe, not yet fully, the intention was to become 10x5 and to line with the pillar and with the observer. Quite difficult, admittedly. :angel: |
| Jindl02-24-04, 08:07 AM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Note: I hope you'll double check the enlarge potion thing. Anyways, the potion takes a full round, so would it be on when it was dispelled? IRON WON WITHOUT AN ALLY AND AGAINST AN UNDEAD! And a big one btw. Of course being a cleric helps. But I think that this proves that allies aren't necessarily unbalanced... Let's see how it affects the polls. :rolleyes: Heh actually it wasn't forgotten. It was a calculated risk, and Rito had more than 60% of surviving the first round. Hey how are you still revolting this fight! I"ve seen this confusion about potions once before. As a reminder, potions always take a standard action to activate, regardless of what the spell's casting time was. The affect occurs immediately upon activation. So a potion: enlarge person would enlarge you as a standard action, whereas casting the spell yourself, or using a scroll: enlarge person, would still require a full round. Another example is the potion: lesser restoration, which can be activated by a character as a standard action, even though the spell has a casting time of 3 rounds. ---------------------------------------- Congrats to Iron. However, a single defeat (to perhaps the toughest gladiator) amid the recent blizzard of one-sided ally victories does not prove that the allies are balanced. It merely proves that with intelligent tactics, a character can occasionally win against one of the super allies. ---------------------------------------- I never realized that it was a calculated risk. That's a really big risk, but heh, I was just remembering an example where a character may not have used the best strategy considering his opponents abilities. You'll note I also made reference to the Elder's last act of senility in trying to use Fireballs against someone with a good reflex save and evasion... -Jindl |
| Moherajikuyx02-24-04, 09:30 AM | Potions: and this is why I keep modding not-too-high fights. Rito: ehm let's say it was a lazy calculated risk :rolleyes: But I remember he actually had more than 50% of surviving that. Too bad the first Rito didn't work. Of course the manouver needed some review. *Trying to resist... Trying hard... Miserably fails.* Sorry but I can't help but inflict the following :teach: "allies aren't necessarily unbalanced" == "a single defeat [...] does not prove that the allies are balanced" so we agree. I know, I'm a :bored: Tellish_of_Ket: I really hope you'll find the way back! :inlove: (:eek: Don't get me wrong I just HAD to use the new smiley :D) |
| Myrridin02-24-04, 09:39 AM | Originally posted by Kaigan Hmm.. when he was throwing the fire at me, wouldn't it have made more sense for me to move away and heal, instead of just heal right next to him so that he can hit me? i mean if you had my character double move the horse 100ft away and then cast clw then it would have been a different story. Yes, it would've made more sense. I tried to follow your tactics the best I could, but you included nothing about how to deal with the swarm. Your lance does piercing damage, which isn't very effective against swarms. I chose the flail as I felt it had a better chance of getting rid of the swarm. As for the searing light attack, sorry I missed that one, you want another edit? You mean if I'd taken over the tactics for your character and done what I thought best, instead of what you sent? I can do that when modding a fight, but then I'm not quite sure what good sending tactics do, besides giving me an idea of what you want. |
| LLMadCow02-24-04, 09:40 AM | Pairings will be tomorrow, right? ust wondering how much time Ihave to edit and work characters, as I have updated nothing thus far. LL |
| Arstimis02-24-04, 10:03 AM | Originally posted by Myrridin Yes, it would've made more sense. I tried to follow your tactics the best I could, but you included nothing about how to deal with the swarm. Your lance does piercing damage, which isn't very effective against swarms. I chose the flail as I felt it had a better chance of getting rid of the swarm. As for the searing light attack, sorry I missed that one, you want another edit? You mean if I'd taken over the tactics for your character and done what I thought best, instead of what you sent? I can do that when modding a fight, but then I'm not quite sure what good sending tactics do, besides giving me an idea of what you want. I wouldnt worry about the fight too much. There were a couple errors and such, but i dont think they would have made a huge difference with the outcome. The thing that made the difference was the swarm damage, and since Kaigan didnt put anything in his tactics about swarm or anything much really, then he should be happy you at least attacked the swarm and killed it. With the searing light...dont worry 2d6 damage would not have made a difference. Anyways, pretty good first fight |
| Arstimis02-24-04, 10:17 AM | I know it would not have made a difference in the fight, but could you tell me how you got arty's ac to be 15 Round 5 Arty stands defensively, awaiting the sight of his opponent. Angosh attacks Arty [5 + 20!, Crit 16 + 5 = 21!, vs 15; Damage 9 + 9 + (7*2) = 32] It should be 21(armor(5)+shield(2)+4(full defense)+base(10), he just wouldnt get his dex. just wondering... |
| LLMadCow02-24-04, 10:28 AM | quote by Arstimis I know it would not have made a difference in the fight, but could you tell me how you got arty's ac to be 15 quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Round 5 Arty stands defensively, awaiting the sight of his opponent. Angosh attacks Arty [5 + 20!, Crit 16 + 5 = 21!, vs 15; Damage 9 + 9 + (7*2) = 32] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It should be 21(armor(5)+shield(2)+4(full defense)+base(10), he just wouldnt get his dex. just wondering... Sorry about that. Mistyped. I had it correct in my notes as: AC 19 (Armor 5 + Defensive 4) = 19. Arty had no shield on his character sheet, no gold had been spent for a shield. It was mentioned in his tactics, but I sent an e-mail reply stating that with no shield there would be no shield bonus. Only now when you mentioned it did it occur to me that I had written the fight as though he had one, but when doing my rolls it wasn't included. I was just reading from his fight instructions and typing to fight. Sorry about that. |
| kedi02-24-04, 10:31 AM | Sorry for the delay, a snow storm locked me in a computer-less house :( But here I am, and ready for my first match. Bring it on! :P |
| Arstimis02-24-04, 10:43 AM | Originally posted by LLMadCow Sorry about that. Mistyped. I had it correct in my notes as: AC 19 (Armor 5 + Defensive 4) = 19. Arty had no shield on his character sheet, no gold had been spent for a shield. It was mentioned in his tactics, but I sent an e-mail reply stating that with no shield there would be no shield bonus. Only now when you mentioned it did it occur to me that I had written the fight as though he had one, but when doing my rolls it wasn't included. I was just reading from his fight instructions and typing to fight. Sorry about that. oh ok, that makes sense. Oh and did anyone answer the question I had posted yesterday about having 2 characters fighting, but there not being enough fights to mod |
| Jindl02-24-04, 11:05 AM | Originally posted by Arstimis I know it would not have made a difference in the fight, but could you tell me how you got arty's ac to be 15 It should be 21(armor(5)+shield(2)+4(full defense)+base(10), he just wouldnt get his dex. just wondering... Total defense provides a Dodge bonus to AC. So, if he lost his Dex bonus to AC, he would also lose his dodge bonus from Total Defense. His AC should have been 17 (+5 armor, +2 shield). -Jindl |
| Moherajikuyx02-24-04, 11:13 AM | kedi welcome back from stormyland and don't forget to set the pc ready for the 25/2 pairings :) |
| Ethendril02-24-04, 11:42 AM | @LLMadcow: I don't usually have commentary after a fight, but in the Kiri vs. Grimlock fight, you had Kiri sneaking around Grimlock searching for more arrows to fire (and she was crushed to death), when I had the following line in my tactics for this contingency: Continue sneak attacks until he’s dead, and use my sword if I run out of arrows, following the same hit and run tactics. So I wanted her to continue flyby attacks, using her sword. I didn't want her to ever get near him. Anyway, it should never have made it this far, but he grapples with an improvised weapon (the cold iron arrow), but he didn't draw it before the grapple. And did I get a chance to use escape artist to get out of the grapple? -Ethendril |
| Arstimis02-24-04, 11:51 AM | Originally posted by Jindl Total defense provides a Dodge bonus to AC. So, if he lost his Dex bonus to AC, he would also lose his dodge bonus from Total Defense. His AC should have been 17 (+5 armor, +2 shield). -Jindl oh ok...I learn something new In that case it was done right, because he didn't actually have a shield and ac would have been 15 |
| LLMadCow02-24-04, 11:52 AM | Quote by Ethendril Continue sneak attacks until he’s dead, and use my sword if I run out of arrows, following the same hit and run tactics. 1st - Well, due to his uncanny dodge, you were never making sneak attacks. 2nd - Out of arrows. This was a tough one, but there were 13 arrows still usable for the fight, they just had to be recovered. I could re-run the fight from that point. 3rd - Escape Artist. Yes, attempts were made, but there were some bad rolls. 4th - Drawing the arrow, my bad. Again, if you want I can re-do fight from that point. I will keep all rolls, in the order they came, and add rolls as needed later. Your call... |
| Ethendril02-24-04, 11:58 AM | Again, if you want I can re-do fight from that point. I will keep all rolls, in the order they came, and add rolls as needed later. Your call... @LL: It's your fight. I know how hard it is to get everything perfect. If you think there were problems that need to be corrected, feel free to re-do it, but it's up to you. I'll just live with whatever you decide. Thanks for modding the fight. -Ethendril |
| Moherajikuyx02-24-04, 12:34 PM | :eek: This is the mood! Thanks for showing to us the so called elders how to behave, Ethendril. (serious) |
| Myrridin02-24-04, 01:03 PM | I have renamed Malkoth, Elkesh, and he is ready for the 25/2 fights. I've redone the GP amount for his stuff, and I believe I'm in compliance. I don't have my PHB right here, so if I'm not, let me know. Thank you for all the feedback on my first Modded fight, I appreciate it. I would still like to run low level fights, if that's ok with you all? I'm also removing Alric from contention. 1 character is fine for now. |
| Druid Roxors02-24-04, 01:40 PM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Druid Roxors: no AoO from swarms. Check MM. I ment that the swarm provokes AoO when entering a space occupied by another creature, not vice versa. |
| Hatzinger02-24-04, 01:46 PM | Originally posted by Jindl Total defense provides a Dodge bonus to AC. So, if he lost his Dex bonus to AC, he would also lose his dodge bonus from Total Defense. His AC should have been 17 (+5 armor, +2 shield). -Jindl ROFLMAO, Jindl!!!!:bow: :devil: :bow: |
| LLMadCow02-24-04, 02:52 PM | I stand behind the initial retrieval of arrows, and agree that once retrieving arrows was not going as planned things would have changed from there. I am going to rerun the fight from the point where an arrow should have been drawn and let you know the results shortly. Please, no leveling. Also, give me a quick reply - Should a Cold Iron arrow have to be drawn agian once the first one has been used? It just occurred to me that all arrows are uselss once they've been used once, however that usually applies to having been fired from a bow. |
| Magagumo02-24-04, 03:14 PM | @ Jindl I appreciate the compliment, though I believe Harvester, Iron, and Jindl are equally as dangerous. @ Moh Congratulations sir, I was completely unprepared for my tinny voice to be silenced ;) @ MB I hold no emnity for you re-running the fight, I'm glad to know it was a fair result (besides, I plan for these things by saving the old versions of my characters until the fight result is official). I think we need to consider a freeze of 13th level (though I'm sure Moh wants Atticus back, I would be happy to run that fight). The 12th level is also looking mighty thin, but it's worth throwing a few more individuals up to 13th if we have some poeple who haven't fought in a while. Honestly, as much as I'd like to beat on a grappling monk, I would like to have some of our very original lower-level gladiators show up for us to battle... kinda sick of all these clerics ;) Anyways, what do the Mods think about another freeze? It will give us a chance to build up some creds, as I plan on trying out a new char soon enough with Bruno frozen :) |
| Ethendril02-24-04, 03:31 PM | Originally posted by LLMadCow I stand behind the initial retrieval of arrows, and agree that once retrieving arrows was not going as planned things would have changed from there. I am going to rerun the fight from the point where an arrow should have been drawn and let you know the results shortly. Please, no leveling. Also, give me a quick reply - Should a Cold Iron arrow have to be drawn agian once the first one has been used? It just occurred to me that all arrows are uselss once they've been used once, however that usually applies to having been fired from a bow. I appreciate your efforts here, LL. Thanks. As far as the arrows, the entry in the PHB only states that "An arrow that hits its target is destroyed." They also have a -4 penalty on attack rolls and deal damage as a dagger when used improvised. |
| Jindl02-24-04, 04:04 PM | Originally posted by Magagumo I think we need to consider a freeze of 13th level (though I'm sure Moh wants Atticus back, I would be happy to run that fight). The 12th level is also looking mighty thin, but it's worth throwing a few more individuals up to 13th if we have some poeple who haven't fought in a while. Honestly, as much as I'd like to beat on a grappling monk, I would like to have some of our very original lower-level gladiators show up for us to battle... kinda sick of all these clerics ;) Anyways, what do the Mods think about another freeze? It will give us a chance to build up some creds, as I plan on trying out a new char soon enough with Bruno frozen :) I too would like to see my character in battle against a more mature version of some of the lower level characters. I would second the freeze at 13th idea, waiting until we had 8-12 characters ready. Challenges (expect to see something on the RP thread soon): 1. Aku, Shapeshifting Master of Darkness has no choice but to challenge the Samurai [j]Auk. 2. Jindl also wants to offer that rematch to Brackin. As for Anna, she'll fight whoever... -Jindl |
| MotherBast02-24-04, 04:21 PM | I also second the freeze at 13th idea. Or I guess I would be thirding now. Brackin has fought all the high level peps now, and wants some new blood. |
| LLMadCow02-24-04, 05:34 PM | I have tried editing my post easily 6 times thus far and everything keeps freezing up on me. I am going nuts. As I said I would re-run from the point of the Arrow Being Drawn, the fight went much different and MUCH longer. What you find below is the end of the post, and I will try again late tonight to repost the fight. I am not going to keep trying right now.... Spoiler Alert 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 * Ecerpt from the end of the Kiri vs Grimlock Fight Round 155 - Round 172 Kiri resumes her attack pattern for her Flyby Melee attacks. She lands 1 hit and does 3 damage. Grimlock makes MANY attempts to initiate a grapple. Kiri 15/15 (16, 8) Grimlock -1/58 (16, 8)[Fatigued] Kiri wins 6000gp and Used: 42 Arrows, 2 Charges from her wand CLW Grimlock loses and Used: CMW, CLW [B]Notes: This fight was extremely long. Once the Flyby Melee attacks began, every round had at least 3 dice rolled and up to 5 if he missed the grapple. 104 rounds, 312+ rolls. My dice seem rounder now. High rolls were needed to hit Grimlock. The Fatigued Grapple vs Escape Artist was close. Move Silently favored Kiri. Once the melee flyby attacks started, unless Grimlock landed a critical with his attack or maintained a grapple for several attacks, all Kiri had to do was go heal herself. @Ethendril - You owe it to all other MODS to bring more arrows. I think 15 per HD of opponent should do fine. Hide them somewhere or carry them. Some of the locations may not be exact. All the attack and damage rolls are correct. Please be kind. |
| ^Rayne^02-24-04, 05:41 PM | Aiki Auk will accept the challenge of Aku. See your PC in the ring Jindl. ;) |
| SnarkHunter02-24-04, 05:46 PM | Freezing at 13 sounds fine. Mo I don't really want more then one fight a week from now on. I don't need credits so I should be fine with staying as is. I'll be alternating Skymoon and Bilo while I try to get Donkey up. And once one or both get frozen. Mmm, well interesting times I think. |
| Ethendril02-24-04, 05:48 PM | @Ethendril - You owe it to all other MODS to bring more arrows. I think 15 per HD of opponent should do fine. Hide them somewhere or carry them. @LL: I appreciate all your work on this fight. I apologize for the lack of arrows (and I know I don't do a lot of damage), but I had missed his uncanny dodge (as you pointed out in my tactics), and thought I would be adding an additional d6 each attack. I promise to add some additional damage production against all future opponents! @JonahBlack: I thought your tactics were great against me...it wasn't what I expected. |
| kattattack2202-24-04, 05:52 PM | I have a question for everyone. Would there be some people that would allow me to use their gladiators as NPC's for a campaign that I run with my friends? They are going to wrap up a plot we have been doing for a couple months now. I just wanted them to have some fun afterwards (and me not have to do much planning) by having a festival with some different competitions including a gladiatoral competition. I would only need a few to give them the idea its a large tournament. The party level is ten but I want some different levels because not everyone is going to be as strong as the PC's and some maybe even stronger. I am just looking for a few volunteers or permission. If I don't get any, no big deal. I will just alter some old PC's or something. PM, email, or post a reply if you are okay with this. No response will be taken as a 'No, please don't use my gladiator that I spent time and effort into building.' |
| Hatzinger02-24-04, 05:53 PM | @Mo: I´m back again and am ready to mod. |
| Ethendril02-24-04, 06:56 PM | Quick question: Can wands be purchased with any spell 4th level or lower, or does it have to be listed in the DMG? If you can purchase a wand with any spell, is it just the same price as other wands of that spell level? |
| Caterane02-24-04, 07:07 PM | Huh? When I last read the Bruno vs Iron fight the Barbarian lost. Now he`s the winner? Perhaps I just dreamt bad. Freeze at lvl 13 makes sense. I don`t want to fight the same guys all over again. And I want to focus on the 2nd Harvester and my new character. Until 12 gladiators then. It`s perhaps a bit premature but what happens when we reach lvl 20? Auto-retire? Epic? Monster fights? Special matches (teams, good vs evil, etc)? Fun fights against the other lvl 20`s? @ToK: :weep: |
| MotherBast02-24-04, 07:37 PM | @Katt, I don't mind if you use either Brackin or Candessa. Dra'kel is probably to low for you, but his complete build is on the Min/Max FAQ under druids. @Cat, I have no intrest in epic levels, so if any of my gladiators reach level 20, they will retire. |
| Caterane02-24-04, 07:41 PM | @MB: That`s your right of course. But speak for yourself. I don`t like epic either but on the other hand I will never get the chance to play epic in my campaign so this might be a good opportunity to get familiar with the system. It could be an optional epic league perhaps, for those how want to participate. |
| Druid Roxors02-24-04, 08:10 PM | @ Elder Mods: Is it possible to use poison within the arena? (buy poison and apply) just as it is possible to buy sleeping arrows. |
| Caterane02-24-04, 08:12 PM | @Ethendril: Yes. Even metamagicked. @Druid Rox: Yes. With the usual chance to poison yourself. |
| Kaigan02-24-04, 08:12 PM | I'm going to change my gladiator. I'll be deleting Felix and putting another character in his place. I'm kind of frustrated with the lance/cleric build right now, no offense Cat. I also want to try another build that i may use in a campaign. Well i just wanted to give the heads up, thanks. |
| Mustadio[MoF]02-24-04, 08:13 PM | GJ to Angosh for... a... good fight. If it hadnt been for that crit. i MAY have stood a chance :P I am dumping Arty and am making a new character.(not because i got decimated, i just got better tactics now :P ) |
| Druid Roxors02-24-04, 08:19 PM | Originally posted by Caterane @Druid Rox: Yes. With the usual chance to poison yourself. But, since this can be done at any time before the fight, i could poison myself last week and be fine at the time of the encounter right? (loosing the poison dose) |
| fiftyvolts02-24-04, 08:31 PM | I love Grimlock, in fact he is my hero. This because he not only smashes but also has super clever tactics. What I don't understand is how he lost even when Kiri asked for the redo. First of all, her tactics state that if she takes "ANY damage" she runs away to cure. Your report says she used 2 charges of her wand. I have trouble believing that Grimlock (who can smash like nobody's business) only damaged her twice. There are many questions I have about how you ran his readied grappled action, mostly involving when he grabbed (i.e. when he heard her) and weather she got to attack him or not. Also I have to say that a arrow is not an arrow when it's an improvised dagger, and I don't think it breaks. This is just my two cents, and I am sure Grimlock will speak for his Orcish self soon, but as a big Grimlock fan (who toasts his name with every cup of coffee) I can't sit idlely while I feel like he is being made a pariah. |
| Caterane02-24-04, 08:40 PM | @Kaigan: I told you it isn`t easy. Since you cannot ready a charge and your foes can easily negate one by using cover it isn`t easy to get one off. @Druid: No because you have a chance to fail. @Fiftyvolts: Greetings. A lurker? Why not post your own hero? :) And I really thought the Harvester is your hero :smirk: |
| Battousai200502-24-04, 08:52 PM | @Katt: Hey, if you get sintius's personality right, ill let you have copyright laws. :D I understand how hard it is to come up with NPCs. @ Everyone: hey, Ill be willing to mod a fight or two. Go ahead and send one my way. Keep it low level. My poor little brain couldn't handle anything too high ;) |
| kattattack2202-24-04, 08:55 PM | What? There are lurkers who follow the fights and have favorite gladiators? If so, who are these people and what are their favorite gladiators? @Hatzinger, Battousai2005, and MotherBast - Thank you for allowing me to use your gladiators. @Battousai2005 - I will do the best I can to portray his haughtiness, aggression, and hatred of injustice. |
| Battousai200502-24-04, 09:12 PM | @Katt: Perfect! Oh, and make him a ladies man as well:D JK |
| Kaigan02-24-04, 09:20 PM | @Cat: yeah, it wasn't easy, but hey it was fun while it lasted. it is a good build if you know the right tactics for it, i guess i didn't. @Bat: Hey, have fun with whoever you get to fight this week, only don't hurt him to bad :smirk: |
| Battousai200502-24-04, 09:34 PM | @Kaigan: Heh, no worries there. Lots of guys who have already whooped my butt pretty good! |
| Bishop the Bardican02-24-04, 09:35 PM | Felix Rancaster has retired leaving Urig the Ususrper as the only 4th level character. I am going to change his character sheet to show that he is waiting this week. I am going to try to post another fighter tonight. This should round out the 2nd level roster. I will keep only two active during any week, though. If there is a problem with any of this let me know. EDIT: If a monster fight would be easier, that would be fine. The character has no handle animal/necro abilities so it would basically be an exhibition match. |
| Kaigan02-24-04, 09:39 PM | @Bat: yeah, you got beat some times, but now you get to have fun, come on 5th level. you have fun now you hear. @Bish: sorry bout that, but it was not my fault completely. You see i leveled up my guy before i saw the new and improved version of my fight, and in that one i lost, so Felix is technically still in the 3rd level. @Myrridin: hey it was a great fight, a little long, but great. Although i enjoyed the first version better, there is nothing i can do about the second one. I enjoyed the story however. @Motherbast: Hey your tactics were good this time, well done. I should have memorized create water to get rid of your produce flame, but hey, all is well, have fun. |
| kattattack2202-24-04, 09:40 PM | Originally posted by Battousai2005 @Katt: Perfect! Oh, and make him a ladies man as well:D JK I can make him ladies' druid if you want. He can have the pick up line, "How would you like to do the wild thing?" |
| Arstimis02-24-04, 09:44 PM | @ Kat: Feel free to use my grappling monk if you want to @ Bishop: actually Motherbast's gladiator should now be level 4 with you, as it just won the level 3 match against Felix |
| Battousai200502-24-04, 09:48 PM | Originally posted by kattattack22 I can make him ladies' druid if you want. He can have the pick up line, "How would you like to do the wild thing?" :rofl: Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Good times! |
| MotherBast02-24-04, 10:20 PM | @Cat: Have you ever concidered readying a partial charge? You may preform a partial charge at any time you are limited to a partial action. When you ready an action, you may only ready a partial action, so a partial charge qualifies. If your a charger, I would think readying partial charges would have been in your tactics from day one. |
| Arstimis02-24-04, 10:31 PM | I would like to post a new gladiator, but keep Kiowen as well. So I would like to start modding a fight a week, starting next week. |
| Battousai200502-24-04, 10:33 PM | Id like to do the same as Arstimis |
| SnarkHunter02-24-04, 10:35 PM | MB: I believe the wording on a partial charge is very specific, that is, only if you are restricted to taking a standard or a move action during your turn (i.e. under a slow spell.) @Katt: feel free to use anyone you'd like, Donkey will be getting a few cleric levels eventually, and Bilo might be a little high...but if they all teemed up they might be able to take him. Maybe :D. |
| JonahBlack02-24-04, 10:48 PM | @Caterane - Let's not be so hasty there... I don't mind having a fan. We can't all be loved an adored like the Harvester ;-) I would have spoken up earlier, but I've been skiing in Vermont, and I'm now very tired. Many thanks to LLMadCow for the fight. The fight turned out pretty much how I expected. Better, actually, as I made two crucial errors - 1) I didn't realize that arrows still break when used in melee (I thought it said the arrow was used as a dagger. but it says it does damage as a dagger.) and 2) I forgot you can use escape artist in a grapple. Still, it's pretty sweet that Grimlock shrugged off over a hundred rounds of attack...darn greater invisibility |
| Druid Roxors02-24-04, 11:08 PM | @ Caterane: Take a closer look at what I posted. In other words, since poison lasts indefinately on the sword, I could apply it a week in advance and if i get to poison myself, there would be no problem. |
| kattattack2202-24-04, 11:19 PM | Originally posted by SnarkHunter @Katt: feel free to use anyone you'd like, Donkey will be getting a few cleric levels eventually, and Bilo might be a little high...but if they all teemed up they might be able to take him. Maybe :D. Thank you. I may still use Bilo. I have a power gamer to teach a lesson to :). |
| LLMadCow02-24-04, 11:24 PM | Originally posted by Druid Roxors @ Caterane: Take a closer look at what I posted. In other words, since poison lasts indefinately on the sword, I could apply it a week in advance and if i get to poison myself, there would be no problem. Sorry, but I have to disagree. I have been shot down on that before, too. The way the rules work, unless you have a poison immunity, the poison MUST be applied during the fight it is used. So, if you apply the poison during one fight and never get to use it, then it is removed and put back into a bottle. Don't ask me, I just Mod here. |
| Druid Roxors02-24-04, 11:25 PM | oh, its a rule from the arena. I thought it was his interpretation of the Main rules. In that case, its ok. I would say its fair. |
| Mustadio[MoF]02-25-04, 01:05 AM | Arty the Dwarven Fighter is now Pard the Human Fighter(ready to fight) btw inform me if I made errors on my char. sheet (very tired) |
| fiftyvolts02-25-04, 01:57 AM | @JonahBlack: Ah man, you should've tried to fight the redo, Grimlock is the man... er Orc... guy... yeah. Anyway maybe next time you should pin and take your enemies stuff and smash it! Yeah, I'm a lurker :eek: |
| Pittbull02-25-04, 02:58 AM | Originally posted by Mustadio[MoF] GJ to Angosh for... a... good fight. If it hadnt been for that crit. i MAY have stood a chance :P I am dumping Arty and am making a new character.(not because i got decimated, i just got better tactics now :P ) Sorry, that was just bad luck! But Angosh got a long time to prepare himself for his first hit. Angosh is challanging everyone! |
| cellardweller02-25-04, 03:10 AM | @Mo - Moon Moon is listed at the wrong level (he has been bumped to 11 after 3 losses). |
| Moherajikuyx02-25-04, 04:26 AM | Originally posted by kattattack22 Would there be some people that would allow me to use their gladiators as NPC's? Feel free :) I'm actually using them in my campaigns, I'm surprised (but happily) that you feel the need to ask. I use them for their spirit more than the optimization, so I think I respect their creators' intents. Their souls. The first was Iron :D Hatzinger - welcome back! fiftyvolts - welcome too! Cellar & Snarky - ops, corrected. Bumps should be announced here but also made clear on the sheet title, to help me notice. Snarky - I see you didn't address my request, I guess it's accepted. |
| Pitlords02-25-04, 05:51 AM | On the 15th of march I'm beginning working at a new job in a new city, Florence. Iron leaves the Sacred Mountains of the Alps! :weep: The announce is that I feel the suspect that I will lack the time of keeping the roster updated... At least I have the power of turning the screen towards the wall. Thus we need a vice-roster keeper (also for when I'm on holidays). I have to warn you that it's a boring and non-satisfying task. The only bonus is that it counts as a fight and believe me, that's not worth the effort. I'd like to see some volunteers. I'll prefer the elders for obvious reasons of experience and dedication. In the case of more than one I hope they'll decide among themselves, else I'll give a preference. Anyone is free to comment on the candidates (I wanna have some good time!) I hope to have this settled in a week: this way I'll be able to give any needed suggestion to the vice roster-keeper. |
| Moherajikuyx02-25-04, 06:18 AM | And another announce is that the pairings will be within one hour! :) |
| Rosella02-25-04, 06:53 AM | Just for the record; I'm watching the minutes :D |
| Moherajikuyx02-25-04, 07:21 AM | Good! :D PAIRINGS UNDER COURSE! |
| Caterane02-25-04, 07:52 AM | I would volunteer to take the job. Due to my working much on the computer I should be able to respond quick enough. Of course, only if the others agree, especially Master Moda. Padawan Caterane |
| Rosella02-25-04, 07:52 AM | might be me, but i don't seem em. having trouble?:angel: |
| Moherajikuyx02-25-04, 08:55 AM | :P Actually yes the boards are laggsome today. But still... PaIrInGs DoNe! cellar in case you're asking, Johan doesn't get the didn't fight status coz he couldn't be set ready coz you weren't modding... Well... Strange Mostuff. Jindl & MB - I decided to leave Aku playing because, at parity of other circumstances (# of pcs, and such) he had a challenge and I felt it was more important... I hope both are ok with that. I think that's all, if anyone sees an error please tell me asap. |
| Bishop the Bardican02-25-04, 09:47 AM | @Mo Disregard my earlier post about no man to fight. Mother Bast has a ready 4th level character. I was about to change the subject line of Urig the Usurper's character sheet, but I realized that this was not the best thing to do in the middle of pairings. Anyways, Urig is ready to fight if Drak'el is. Sorry for being last minute |
| Caterane02-25-04, 09:55 AM | Tactics sent for the Harvester. |
| Arstimis02-25-04, 10:31 AM | About the pairings: Dra'kal won his last fight, so he should be at level 4 now..and could fight Urig |
| sshuit02-25-04, 10:38 AM | Did they read : 1. Lose Initiative 2. Get hit by Sleep Arrow 3. Fail save 4. Get a whole lotta CDG from invisible thief? :P They should have! *edit* tactics sent for Roger/Zippy and :b:Voliana Originally posted by Caterane Tactics sent for the Harvester. |
| Ethendril02-25-04, 10:46 AM | @ Arstimis: If you've looked at Kiri's sheet for our upcoming fight, you'll see she's only half-way updated. I didn't have time yesterday to finish it. The only changes I'd lito make are to finish my cohort (which I've started, but haven't done her stats or given her weapons), and to buy some arrows (after using ALL my ammunition in the last fight). I'd forego buying anything else. Anyway, if you'll allow it, I'd like to make those two changes. -Ethendril EDIT: @ Cat: When's that new character coming? You've got a boatload of credits right now. How about a hint...? |
| LLMadCow02-25-04, 10:57 AM | Originally posted by Ethendril The only changes I'd need to make are to finish my cohort (which I've started, but haven't done her stats or given her weapons), and to buy some arrows (after using ALL my ammunition in the last fight). I'd forego buying anything else. Anyway, if you'll allow it, I'd like to make those two changes. -Ethendril Remember - HD x 15 (Or 20 if you want to be real safe). So - 7HD x 15 (Or 20) = 105 (Or 140). You need less if you can actually Sneak Attack, but you should always have PLENTY OF ARROWS! :P |
| Arstimis02-25-04, 11:02 AM | @Ethendril: No problem. Go ahead and finish your cohort |
| Moherajikuyx02-25-04, 11:06 AM | OK done! LL will moderate Drakal vs. Urig. Who did Drakal win against? I think I forgot to give him a loss. I had to change a higher level pairing, or Mag would have been wronged. I hope no one saw :) *edit* Arst I think you should let Eth buy at least normal arrows, archery's the obvious way of that character, no big surprise there. Eth - sorry for not waiting but I had to do the pairings, at that hour. I really don't want to delay again anymore. |
| Ethendril02-25-04, 11:09 AM | Thanks, Arstimis. I appreciate your good sportsmanship. You already beat Dusk with Kiowen, so hopefully my completed cohort will allow me some revenge.;) @LL: Your formula didn't take into account his cohort. So (7*15)+(4*15)=165 arrows. Must increase damage... EDIT: @ Mo: I understand the need to get pairings done. The need of the collective group before one character. Anyway, all is well, since Arstimis is letting me finish. |
| Arstimis02-25-04, 11:11 AM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx OK done! LL will moderate Drakal vs. Urig. Who did Drakal win against? I think I forgot to give him a loss. I had to change a higher level pairing, or Mag would have been wronged. I hope no one saw :) The former Felix Rancaster...but since Felix is no longer with us (been replaced by Enilias), I dont think missing the loss really matters and Mo...will it be ok for me and Battousai to start modding 1 fight a week, in order to have another gladiator fighting |
| Bishop the Bardican02-25-04, 11:14 AM | Thanks Mo, LL, and MotherBast, I am developing an arena addiction, and, poor Urig, without a fight, he just tears out fistfuls of his own hair. Thanks a million, B the B |
| LLMadCow02-25-04, 11:23 AM | Originally posted by Arstimis @Ethendril: No problem. Go ahead and finish your cohort @Ethendril - ...But don't buy any arrows. I don't want to be your pin-cushion! |
| Jindl02-25-04, 11:47 AM | I noticed that Bruno casts extended, empowered false life as a prebuff. But, since he doesn't have the extend spell or empower spell feats, he uses metamagic rods to modify the spell. My question is, since you must use one hand to hold the rod-extend and must use another hand to hold the rod-empower, you wouldn't have any hands free to complete the somatic components of the false life spell? So there is no way you could use the two metamagic rods on the same spell, if that spell has somatic components. Since false life must be extended in order to be a prebuff, it seems likely that Bruno would use the extend rod if forced to choose only a single rod to enhance with. Am I correct about this? -Jindl |
| sshuit02-25-04, 11:48 AM | @ll : Just noticed I've been doing Mirror Images wrong all this time. I don't know if anyone else has been doing this too. In reading the spell description the AC of the images is only = to 10+dex mod+size mod. So the images are much easier to hit. I guess I'll have to start rolling which target is attacked first, then the to hit #. sshuit |
| Ethendril02-25-04, 11:51 AM | @ Arstimis: I've finished updating Kiri. Thank you for allowing me to do that. The only things I changed were to finish my cohort and buy arrows. Let me know if you see any problems, and I'll see you on the battlefield. -Ethendril EDIT: @LLMadCow: I'm starting to think you may have some permanent issues after modding that last 100+round fight.;) |
| Moherajikuyx02-25-04, 12:19 PM | Originally posted by Bishop the Bardican I am developing an arena addiction, and, poor Urig, without a fight, he just tears out fistfuls of his own hair. Hum. I wonder if I could be loaded as drug dealer... *looks around to find an escape* sshuit - "heee heee, youngster, I remeeeeeember that once, in my old days here at the arena, that error occurred already..." |
| Ethendril02-25-04, 12:41 PM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Hum. I wonder if I could be loaded as drug dealer... *looks around to find an escape* Psst.... Psst....Mo! I'm hurtin' here man! Just one fix...JUST GIVE ME A FIGHT! |
| Bishop the Bardican02-25-04, 01:26 PM | EDITED:I will just wait on adding Mishka's missing attribute points. |
| SnarkHunter02-25-04, 02:40 PM | Its funny how thing like this are only noticed now. I just noticed that Rosella's Illene Mcpherson has an illegal Cohort. 4HD+2La=ECL 6 and the leadership cohort must be two ECL less then the character level-in this case 6. So her maximum cohort ECL would be a 4. Just browsing through other possible cohorts, I don't see any other appropriate flying mounts of that ECL...not sure what's the best course of action here but if Rosella wants to select a different cohort for this fight only I'm ok with that (just so long as it get posted k?). Thoughts? @Bishop: Anna had the same problem in her fight a few weeks back, and forgot her 3rd level feat. Usually we wait till next week to change, something we've forgot unless it results in an illegal character. |
| kattattack2202-25-04, 03:02 PM | Hello, My name is kattattack22 and I am a Core Arena Addict. Now for the serious stuff... @sshuit- tatics sent for Ony @Mo and Rosella - Thank you for permission to use your gladiators. @Mo - Do you just use your own gladiators in your game, other arena gladiators, or do you use characters from your game in the arena? |
| JonahBlack02-25-04, 03:39 PM | It occurs to me that Grimlock and Kiri's fight is now the longest fight. It had fewer moderated rounds than Iron/Ebelin, but more total. |
| Caterane02-25-04, 03:49 PM | @JB: Actually there were other fights with 200+ rounds where one stayed hidden until the buffs ran out but that doesn`t count. Only moderated rounds. On top of that Tellish`s story in this fight is really great and fun to read again ...unlike Grimlock vs Kiri. |
| MotherBast02-25-04, 04:11 PM | I know I have 3 PCs, but Candessa has now recived a Did Not Fight tag 2 weeks in a row. If she misses this week it will be three. If I have to have a gladiator sit out, then make Brackin sit out, as he hasen't missed a fight in two months or something. Candy dosne't want to go a month without a fight. |
| Ethendril02-25-04, 04:16 PM | @ JB and the longest fight: I think it all has to do with Pixie Discrimination. Kiri doesn't qualify for the longest fight, because she is a Pixie. She doesn't qualify for the arena bunny (despite a 24 charisma!) because she's a Pixie. LLMadCow has had some derogatory comments he has made toward Pixies and their arrows, but she receives no protection. I'm starting to think that this board is full of anti-Pixites. |
| Caterane02-25-04, 04:20 PM | Ethendril, would you date Candessa or Kiri? |
| kattattack2202-25-04, 04:21 PM | I like Pixies.... . . . . . . . . . . roasted with a bit of honey sauce. JK, I do actually like Pixies. Just ask my players in my Depizan campaign :D. |
| Ethendril02-25-04, 04:26 PM | Originally posted by Caterane Ethendril, would you date Candessa or Kiri? I think Cat may be the worst offender...;) It's just more anti-Pixie rhetoric, which simply leads to a downward spiral of Pixie hatred. EDIT: Oh, and kattattack22...eating Pixies is also descrimination. |
| Jindl02-25-04, 04:30 PM | Originally posted by MotherBast I know I have 3 PCs, but Candessa has now recived a Did Not Fight tag 2 weeks in a row. If she misses this week it will be three. If I have to have a gladiator sit out, then make Brackin sit out, as he hasen't missed a fight in two months or something. Candy dosne't want to go a month without a fight. Hey, I sent you a PM, asking if you wanted to have Candy fight Jagath and Jindl face Bruno. (Since Mo arbitrarily made these match-ups). @Ethendril - Bah! Anna has a Cha 22 (higher than Candy), and you don't hear me complaining about the "bunny babe". To the contrary, I am looking to get in the "Unscathed Winners" section. Speaking of the "Unscathed Winners" section, it seems the criteria is 5 wins in a row. If this is the case, both Jindl of the High Forest and Herrix Ignatius should be added, as both characters have won 5 fights in a row during their history. -Jindl |
| Ethendril02-25-04, 04:34 PM | Originally posted by Jindl @Ethendril - Bah! Anna has a Cha 22 (higher than Candy), and you don't hear me complaining about the "bunny babe". To the contrary, I am looking to get in the "Unscathed Winners" section. -Jindl [/B] Anna's problem is that she doesn't stand up for her rights. Ghosts are descriminated against, too. Perhaps the characters need to form the MCLU (Monster's Civil Liberties Union). EDIT: What happened to Tellish? Is he gone for good? |
| MotherBast02-25-04, 04:42 PM | I like your suggestion Jindl. Candy will gladly take Anna's spot, and Brackin will begrudginly stand asside for Jindl if MO will make the trade. |
| kattattack2202-25-04, 04:47 PM | Originally posted by Ethendril EDIT: Oh, and kattattack22...eating Pixies is also descrimination. I said I was kidding. I prefer using Pixies to force characters to roleplay with riddle and trick contests. |
| Caterane02-25-04, 05:37 PM | @Ethendril: at least you didn`t say "Iron" :D Bah! Anna has a Cha 22 (higher than Candy), and you don't hear me complaining about the "bunny babe". The problem is that Anna`s lapdance sucks. Speaking of the "Unscathed Winners" section, it seems the criteria is 5 wins in a row. If this is the case, both Jindl of the High Forest and Herrix Ignatius should be added, as both characters have won 5 fights in a row during their history. Not to forget the Harvester who has 7 wins in a row. But I think the emphasize is on unscathed. thus only victories up to your first loss count. If not so then the unscathed winners section will flood over over time. |
| Druid Roxors02-25-04, 05:39 PM | I was checking Myrridin's Character, Elkesh, and I found something quite wrong. Elkesh is a two weapon fighter, he uses a short sword and a Long sword. He also has a Bow. According to his equipment section, all 3 items are Masterwork (which costs more than 1k, them alone). One of them (the short sword) does not have the "masterwork" tag, so I suppose that is the mistake. Nevertheless, his attack modifiers suggest both weapons are masterwork, which cannot be the case. Please revise your numbers and submit the changes to Hatzinger, our moderator. Do not change the rooster, you could be discualified. note: A masterwork composite longbow (+1 strenght) costs 500gp not 400gp |
| kattattack2202-25-04, 05:48 PM | Originally posted by Caterane The problem is that Anna`s lapdance sucks. LOL, how true. Originally posted by Caterane Not to forget the Harvester who has 7 wins in a row. But I think the emphasize is on unscathed. thus only victories up to your first loss count. If not so then the unscathed winners section will flood over over time. Damn, if that is the case Ony will never bounce back from his defeat last week to the unscathed winners. I guess he needs a new goal. Maybe he will become the arena translator. If he takes a few ranks in profession(cunning linguist)... |
| Druid Roxors02-25-04, 06:19 PM | Oh, and hitpoints are rounded down. It should be 15.5 (15) not 16. |
| Caterane02-25-04, 06:26 PM | @druid: write such things to your mod. He contacts the other gladiator and decides what to do. |
| Rosella02-25-04, 06:46 PM | can somebody explain this contradiction in the rules to me? (part of leadership) 1 -> The character can attract a cohort of up to this level. 2 ->Regardless of a character’s Leadership score, he can only recruit a cohort who is two or more levels lower than himself They're right behind eachother and I don't get how I should read this. In the storyline of Ilene the pegasus came walking to Ilene (which is attracting) and it wasn't actively recruited. Does this mean that with an improved charisma Ilene can still have her mount? (looking for options out of this mess, I think i'm returning to normal warhorse, but if this is possible...) |
| Alterlat02-25-04, 07:43 PM | Jagath not fighting Anna sounds just fine to me. Kattattack, you're welcome to use Jagath in your campaign if you want, as is anyone else for that matter. |
| MotherBast02-25-04, 09:09 PM | @Rosella: both of the sentences apply, but if you have a good CHA score, and no penaltys, only the one about the cohort being two levels lower than you really effects you. The bit about max level for a cohort based on leadership score assumes some people will take leadership with low CHA scores, and/or negatives to the leadership score. So, for instance, a 10th level halforc Barbarian with a 6 in CHA took leadership at 9th, accidently killed his cohort, and wanted a new one at tenth, his leadership score would only be 6, and so he would be limited by the Max level for a cohort of his leadership score, which is likely more than 2 levels below his. So basicly, it should read "limited to this level, or two levels lower than the character's class level, whichever is lower." |
| Jindl02-25-04, 10:10 PM | Originally posted by Caterane Not to forget the Harvester who has 7 wins in a row. But I think the emphasize is on unscathed. thus only victories up to your first loss count. If not so then the unscathed winners section will flood over over time. Monster fights don't count (just as they do not affect your win/loss record in the arena). But, true, the Harvester does have 5 wins in a row and should be included. The problem with only allowing the characters who have never lost, is that some builds are more powerful at low levels and others dominate at high levels. Also, there's always a chance that a mod makes a mistake, as I did on one of the Harvester's lowlevel fights. So, I think the "Unscathed Winner" section should be for anyone who gets 5 wins in a row. Don't worry about it including too many people. You must truly be something special to win 5 fights in a row. As it stands, there are only 5 gladiators in the last 12 months of playing who have accomplished this feat. I think we should adjust the "Unscathed Winners" section to recognize this. -Jindl |
| Mustadio[MoF]02-25-04, 10:34 PM | Pard's tactics sent. |
| kattattack2202-25-04, 11:31 PM | The problem with only allowing the characters who have never lost, is that some builds are more powerful at low levels and others dominate at high levels. Also, there's always a chance that a mod makes a mistake, as I did on one of the Harvester's lowlevel fights. So, I think the "Unscathed Winner" section should be for anyone who gets 5 wins in a row. Don't worry about it including too many people. You must truly be something special to win 5 fights in a row. As it stands, there are only 5 gladiators in the last 12 months of playing who have accomplished this feat. I think we should adjust the "Unscathed Winners" section to recognize this. Here, Here! (meaning I agree) Ony wouldn't have made a good translater anyway... From Ony's Character Sheet Speaks Common |
| Magagumo02-25-04, 11:51 PM | I have to say I would not like to fight Spike again.... could perhaps Candy or Anna fight him (since I don't if she has) and that way Zorander could fight Jagath? (its been a long time since we tussled.. and that was a bow-crit)... Thoughts from the other glads at that level? Re Rods: I suppose I never really considered that, Jindl. Perhpas if I bought a Still Spell rod.. :D. Hmm, if that is the case, I suppose I will have no choice but to use it with Ray of Enfeeblement and Vampiric Touch with Impunity :D At least with the later spell, I know it will have quite the effect :D. Besides, in a few more levels, Bruno won't need to Enlarge his False Life, so that will free up the hand :) @MOh: Note that my False Life will not be empowered in the Brackin fight Side Note: I'm interested to see how Horizon Walker turns out, I was honestly dissapointed by the fact that they only get a Good Fort and base 4 skill points, a far cry from their ranger predecessors. With any luck, those attack, damage, and skill bonuses will more than make up for it. (In my campaign, a player's draconic cohort [Wyrmling Green Dragon] is taking Horizon Walker levels starting at its next level.. should be neat ^_^) |
| LLMadCow02-26-04, 01:06 AM | Originally posted by Ethendril @LLMadCow: I'm starting to think you may have some permanent issues after modding that last 100+round fight.;) Issues? <Heh-Heh> I disagree. <He-he> I THINK YOU'RE WRONG! <Heh-Heh-Heh> I'll tell you who has issues! YOU BUDDY! Making a man roll hundereds of dice just to see the conclusion of a fight. The only thing better would have been if Grimlock has spent 500gp on CLW and kept them up. That would've been awesome. Or maybe 1000gp! Even better. I'll have my revenge! My Character concept? AC: 2 Baillion. BAB: 0 Lvl: 20 Str: 3 SR: 1 Bazillion Greater Invisible and Deafness on opponent. Only way to hit opponent: Natural 20. Average Damage Dealt: 1 SO THERE! No, really, I'm fine. :cool: |
| kattattack2202-26-04, 01:28 AM | Thank you Alterlat and Snarkhunter for permission to use your gladiators! I don't know how I missed you earlier Snark. I appreciate people helping me out so I don't spend hours buffing up the MM monsters (they are way too weak). Since people mentioned FUS's (Funny Useless Stats) earlier, I got to thinking about it and maybe there is room for a couple new ones? Like Best Roleplay (give people a reason to use the roleplay thread), Arena Strong Man, etc. |
| SnarkHunter02-26-04, 02:13 AM | @kat: Actually you hadn't missed me that I can recall. But who doesn't like being thanked twice eh? I've recieved tactics from both my gladiatiors. I guess I'll send out Donkey's tomorrow. Thanks for changing your mount Rosella, I know your character remains terribly effective :). |
| Arstimis02-26-04, 02:52 AM | @ magagumo: tactics sent for kiowen about oh.....5 hourse ago, just wanna make sure its the right email address Im sorry for the fight, maybe since sneak attack applies, the fight will go faster, heh |
| Moherajikuyx02-26-04, 04:46 AM | Originally posted by MotherBast I know I have 3 PCs, but Candessa has now recived a Did Not Fight tag 2 weeks in a row. Sorry MB I didn't notice Candy's tag. This makes her play in Anna's place, and causes Brackin to leave space to Jindl. Mag - sorry but that has to be done with challenges. Wait. What's this dejavu'... ;) Bunny babes - A bunny babe has a requisite: a picture by Rojo! :drool: Unscathed winners - I invented that section for characters who never lost... Iron got the shaft in his first loss but I never complained. Anyways we can found a new section. The problem is that the roster is near the maximum number of icons. I got some suggestions for an "arena champ" entry... Wouldn't that be better. Volunteers for vice till now: Tellish, Cat, Jindl. |
| Myrridin02-26-04, 08:55 AM | Originally posted by Druid Roxors I was checking Myrridin's Character, Elkesh, and I found something quite wrong. Elkesh is a two weapon fighter, he uses a short sword and a Long sword. He also has a Bow. According to his equipment section, all 3 items are Masterwork (which costs more than 1k, them alone). One of them (the short sword) does not have the "masterwork" tag, so I suppose that is the mistake. Nevertheless, his attack modifiers suggest both weapons are masterwork, which cannot be the case. Please revise your numbers and submit the changes to Hatzinger, our moderator. Do not change the rooster, you could be discualified. note: A masterwork composite longbow (+1 strenght) costs 500gp not 400gp That's an editing error on me. I went back and was reworking the GP amount and the type of stuff I had, and changed it in some places, and forgot in others. The bow is MW Composite longbow, no str. And the shortsword is just that, a plain shortsword. Yeah, I'm changing them, I was trying to get in compliance withthe gp costs. |
| Myrridin02-26-04, 09:05 AM | Originally posted by Druid Roxors Oh, and hitpoints are rounded down. It should be 15.5 (15) not 16. Hit points: 8+2 (1st level) + 4(rounded down from 4.5)+2 (second level) = 16 That's how we're doing HP, right? Means your HP should be 16 too. |
| Myrridin02-26-04, 09:10 AM | Druid: The actual damage with your sling and darts is 1d3-2, you apply your str penalty to all damage from slings and thrown weapons. |
| Ethendril02-26-04, 12:21 PM | @Mag: Tactics sent for Kiri. |
| Magagumo02-26-04, 01:44 PM | Tactics all recieved... and I see Jindl and I are tussling again *sighs*. |
| Myrridin02-26-04, 01:46 PM | I'm still waiting for tactics from Kedi and Barbarian. My tactics have been sent to Hatzinger. |
| Druid Roxors02-26-04, 01:47 PM | Originally posted by Myrridin Hit points: 8+2 (1st level) + 4(rounded down from 4.5)+2 (second level) = 16 That's how we're doing HP, right? Means your HP should be 16 too. Oops, Something went wrong with my calculations then. You are correct. Yes, Damage with sling and darts would be 1 (minimum damage) or 2 (critical hit). Forgot to apply modifiers. |
| Druid Roxors02-26-04, 01:49 PM | Originally posted by Myrridin I'm still waiting for tactics from Kedi and Barbarian. My tactics have been sent to Hatzinger. Same here |
| Druid Roxors02-26-04, 02:01 PM | Originally posted by Myrridin The bow is MW Composite longbow, no str. And the shortsword is just that, a plain shortsword. The entry you had included a +1 on damage rolls, which you corrected, but forgot about the rapidshot entry. +6/+7 in 30’ Ranged, MW Composite Long bow 1d8 20/x3 110’ range +4/+4 or +5/+5 in 30’ Ranged, MW Composite Long bow 1d8+2 20/x3 110’ range The first entry should include a +1 for pointblank, since you specify its within 30'. The second entry has a +1 str +1 pointblank damage. |
| Pittbull02-26-04, 02:42 PM | Tactics have been sent! |
| Myrridin02-26-04, 02:50 PM | Originally posted by Druid Roxors The entry you had included a +1 on damage rolls, which you corrected, but forgot about the rapidshot entry. The first entry should include a +1 for pointblank, since you specify its within 30'. The second entry has a +1 str +1 pointblank damage. Geez, my math sucks recently. The bow should deal 1d8 points of damage, that's it. Within 30' feet, it's 1d8+1. Thanks for the correction on the math druid. |
| Arstimis02-26-04, 05:29 PM | New character posted Laucian Evior (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2685181#post2685181) And I still want Kiowen playing, so im prepared to mod |
| Caterane02-26-04, 06:23 PM | Ok, stop! Another neutral character. I believe the true neutral alignment makes up about 50% of all gladiators, with the other 8 alignments combined making the rest. What a coincidence that everyone seems to be neutral when it is so much better to not be affected by Protection from not-neutral spells. "Hey Cat, the Harvesters are neutral, too!" and I am aware of this. Believe it or not but this was REALLY out of PURE roleplaying reasons. Death is neutral and so are the Harvesters. I have 3 other characters who are NOT true neutral, despite that it would`ve been easy to do so. Vandaeris for example is chaotic neutral because I imagine him that way, and he`s CN in my campaign, too. In my 11 years of RPG I never had a true neutral character in my group. Most were good, and neutral is almost all of the time combined with another aspect of the axis (law, chaos, good, evil). I remember there was once a druid who was true neutral. That one didn`t care about the world and was a really strange guy. --> True neutral. But not in the arena. We have true neutral savage barbarians, true neutral rogues, true neutral aasimars, true neutral ogres, true neutral everything. That`s so boring. What is it that is so bad about being aligned? IF the foe has means to cast the spell on himself (and spend ressources, slots, rounds to do so) he gets +2 deflection to Ac and +2 resistance to saves. This might be worth something at low levels but sooner or later you get a cloak of resistance anyway and spells like shield of faith overlap with it. Everytime a new character pops up - true neutral of course - I just close the window again without reading the sheet. Uninteresting. Unrealistic. MOST people are aligned to something. True neutrality should be an exception, or at least equal to the other 8 alignments and not dominating the world. I want to see interesting personalities! Granted, many of the background stories are good, many of the class/race/feat combinations are interesting, but the true neutral alignment spoils much of that in turn. I have to draw my hat to Tharkos who - no matter how bad the odds are - stays on the course that he`s imagining his character. And I draw my hat to everyone else how is aligned for no other reason than that he gives a crap about a few boni in exchange for roleplaying. The arena has become far more than just a platform where numbers are fighting numbers. They place is alive and soon will be even more when LLMadCow and I finished our project. Some people might say "Hey, why should I take on a disadvantage and gain nothing in return?". That`s a good question if "roleplaying reasons" doesn`t satisfy you so I thought about enacting a rule that deals with this problem. See it that way: the arena should be balanced but there`s one alignment that is better than the others which is not balanced. It is difficult though and risky to invent a completely new rule that deals with the game mechanics. So I thought about a rule that leaves the SRD untouched. What about making prestige fights which focus on the extremes (good vs evil, law vs chaos) thus true neutral characters are not allowed to participate. These prestige fights should give a benefit to the participants. What do you think? I know I indirectly addressed many of you but let`s keep this constructive and calm. Cat |
| ^Rayne^02-26-04, 06:32 PM | Cat, I back you 100% on this. I like to play good aligned PC's and that is what I design when I make my characters. The one great thing about doing kobolds is that they are supposed to be evil and I find it so much more interesting designing them to be good than evil. I could have made them neutral and got the bonuses you pointed out but I think it is a pretty lame thing to do to isolate one's PC from a particular spell type. I was surprised and happy to see that Jindl has built a truly evil PC (in Aku) and had the guts to lay it on the line. It makes it far more fun for me to see my good-aligned PC face off against a sinister opponent for a change. Hopefully the person running the battle will be able to add some fun stuff to the match because of this. Rayne |
| ^Rayne^02-26-04, 06:34 PM | Ethendril, tactics have been sent for Aiki Auk in the Aku battle. |
| Ethendril02-26-04, 06:41 PM | @ Rayne: Tactics received. As far as alignment goes, in any campaign I've ever played in, no one would ever take True Neutral unless you were a druid (and even then, you probably wouldn't take it). I think it adds a lot to a character to have an alignment besides True Neutral, even in the arena. |
| Caterane02-26-04, 06:45 PM | Ok here are the numbers: 17 true neutral 32 of other alignment Note that true neutral is one alignment while the 32 are divided among 8 alignments. That`s 4:17. Another thing to be aware of is that more than half of the non-true neutrals are FORCED to take on an aligned aspect because of class prerequisites. If they were allowed to be true neutral they might make up 75%. If they would take TN alignment it would look like 2:33 (33 = true neutral, 2 = single other alignment). :( Sad, sad, sad |
| Druid Roxors02-26-04, 06:47 PM | Originally posted by Myrridin Geez, my math sucks recently. The bow should deal 1d8 points of damage, that's it. Within 30' feet, it's 1d8+1. Thanks for the correction on the math druid. No problem, just trying to ease the work on our moderator :) |
| MotherBast02-26-04, 06:57 PM | I also noticed the true neutral trend, but I chalked it up to lack of imagination more than game advantage. I'm sure some have concidered the advantages, but I think most just stuck down true neutral because it, like there gladiators, is devoid of personality. I would also point out that of my 3 gladiators, none are true neutral. Brackin was Lawful/evil, untill his war with the evil trio of Bilo, Bruno, and Kelek made him decide to follow a Lawful/neutral path, so as not to be grouped with them. Candy has been Chaotic/good from day one, so is her cohort. Even my druid is Lawful/neutral, and not because he has to be, because he isen't takeing any more monk levels. It just makes sence for the character. I would really like to see a lot more personality in some of the gladiatores, so I feel like I'm fighting a face, and not just a number. I see sheets that don't even have a description on them, much less any RP stuff. |
| Druid Roxors02-26-04, 06:59 PM | Although my character is a True Neutral Druid, I have to say that it is for roleplaying reasons, I planned for his alignment to shift gradually, should he become more sanguinary or more compassionate, Reckless or calculating.. Read my entry and you will see what I mean. Another thing to notice about neutrality and characters are summons. Druids, for instance, loose access to some summons, but clerics and wizards loose access to half their list! Also, the fact that Spontanious cure is alot more useful than inflicts. We must remember that this is, ultimately, an arena; People try to win. note: Even if neutra, wouldn't it be more adecuate to have the Harvester channel negative energy? He is the Harvester, after all, healing spoils the harvest. |
| Bishop the Bardican02-26-04, 07:11 PM | I agree that designing character's backgrounds around beating one 1st level spell is cheap, but you should be light-handed in making rules to favor aligned characters. You could impose a +2 morale bonus to attack and armor class due to the crowd's better being able to cheer for a fighter with a cause. Prestige fights would lock neutral characters out of some aspects of the arena. This seems too heavy-handed to me, even though I find the idea exciting. |
| Druid Roxors02-26-04, 07:16 PM | Wouldn't it be easier to outlaw all spells that affect a certain type of alignment? That could help the Gladiators consider other alignments. |
| Caterane02-26-04, 07:25 PM | Unfortunately the alignment goes beyond "Protection from...". An evil rogue could be detected by the paladin`s detect evil ability, and he would be subject to his fearsome smite evil. Dispel good even gives +4 Ac asides from other benefits. Unholy blight damages good creatures and leaves out neutral ones. Holy word/Blasphemy does far more damage to aligned people. And so on. As I said: it isn`t balanced. |
| Jindl02-26-04, 07:31 PM | Originally posted by Caterane Unfortunately the alignment goes beyond "Protection from...". An evil rogue could be detected by the paladin`s detect evil ability, and he would be subject to his fearsome smite evil. Dispel good even gives +4 Ac asides from other benefits. Unholy blight damages good creatures and leaves out neutral ones. Holy word/Blasphemy does far more damage to aligned people. And so on. As I said: it isn`t balanced. Unholy blight (and similar spells) do also affect nuetrals. Holy Word (and similar spells) have equal affect on anyone non-good (nuetrals and evils treated the same). But here's the big shocker, its not supposed to be balanced. If it were, then it wouldn't be called an "alignment restriction". All alignments are not supposed to be created equal. In truth, evil is likely the strongest of the alignments (simply due to the number and power of the [evil] spells.) As for your crusade against Nuetrality, I don't see what the big deal is. I think it silly to believe that people select their alignment based upon the risk of being smited, or the usefulness of a protection from ... spell. -Jindl |
| Caterane02-26-04, 07:39 PM | Alignment restriction doesn`t mean that lawful good is weaker than true neutral but to prevent true neutral paladin`s from popping up, or chaotic monks. I don`t say every player chooses TN for cheesy reasons but the numbers speak for themselves. In campaigns true neutral is the alignment that is used the least, while in the arena it dominates. |
| Arstimis02-26-04, 08:24 PM | I really hope this didnt come up because of my character....He is Neutral good, not true neutral. |
| Hatzinger02-26-04, 08:27 PM | - tactics sent to market_share for the oetzi vs. sinitus (2nd) fight. - tactics received from druid roxors. - tactics received from myrridin. to the alignment discussion: I use the TN alignment with my oetzi. Yes, i do it to avoid the disadvantages of the more "extreme" alignments, no matter how little they might be. I do this because i don´t see the arena as a place to roleplay -This, i do at home with my group. For me, the arena is a place where maxed-out characters battle other maxed-out characters. The fun of the arena is, for me, to see characters who are bred solely for this specific purpose - the fight; battling one another and testing the different tactics, options and specializations against one another. It helps me to achieve a deeper understanding of the rules and is good for fun and surprising moments - but i don´t do it for the roleplaying experience. So i have no problem at all with the alignments as they are. (PS: nope, i DO love a well-written fight!) (PPS: kiri, one day oetzi´ll get you...):behold: |
| Druid Roxors02-26-04, 08:43 PM | Originally posted by Arstimis I really hope this didnt come up because of my character....He is Neutral good, not true neutral. I would have sworn that it was True neutral last time I checked... Then again, It could have been the hasty look which created the image. Note: Thanks Battousai |
| Arstimis02-26-04, 09:23 PM | Originally posted by Druid Roxors I would have sweared that it was True neutral last time I checked... Then again, It could have been the hasty look which created the image. Actually i think when i first posted it, it only said Neutral, but it seems like ever post i do, i dont catch mistakes till after the post, so probably a min or two after i posted it, i edited it and fixed the mistakes. When i posted the message on this thread though, it was fixed |
| Battousai200502-26-04, 11:25 PM | A new character (lawful evil in case anyone wants to know;) ), Artavian of the Void has been posted by me. |
| Battousai200502-26-04, 11:27 PM | Originally posted by Druid Roxors I would have sweared that it was True neutral last time I checked... Then again, It could have been the hasty look which created the image. Umm, not to be annoying (well, actually to do just that) past tense of to swear is sworn. Just a little annoyance factor I have:rolleyes: |
| Druid Roxors02-26-04, 11:37 PM | Originally posted by Battousai2005 Umm, not to be annoying (well, actually to do just that) past tense of to swear is sworn. Just a little annoyance factor I have:rolleyes: sworn sworn... yes, I know, my english used to be flawless, but after 4+ years of isolation from the english speaking community (english teachers), I have become careless. (By the way, I am Mexican, born in Mexico, from Mexican parents and studied within mexico) |
| Magagumo02-26-04, 11:38 PM | @ Cat Can't debate with ya, boyo I admit, I honestly think Zorander, when not treated as a total monster, fits the slefish True Neurtral fairly well (Not out to hurt other people for pleasure, but dfintely not a considerate human being). Besides, Bruno could have been Neutral w/o any restriction class-wise, but I have to say having him be the wicked little monster that is our arena necromancer (Kelek is still an Assasin, and non of you youngins have gotten your first bone servant yet ;)). Wouldn't have them any other way, Cat, and once Bruno is frozen, I may be investigating a new CE pet.. or perhaps a strange LG one.. we'll see where the credits lie ;) |
| ^Rayne^02-27-04, 01:59 AM | I still need tactics from both players for the Angosh, Pittbull vs. Lance, cellardweller match. Please get them to me soon so I can run this fight in a timely fashion, thanks! ;) |
| Arstimis02-27-04, 02:02 AM | Originally posted by Pittbull Tactics have been sent! Originally posted by ^Rayne^ I still need tactics from both players for the Angosh, Pittbull vs. Lance, cellardweller match. Please get them to me soon so I can run this fight in a timely fashion, thanks! Something doesnt match up here... |
| cellardweller02-27-04, 02:09 AM | Originally posted by ^Rayne^ I still need tactics from both players for the Angosh, Pittbull vs. Lance, cellardweller match. Please get them to me soon so I can run this fight in a timely fashion, thanks! ;) hmm, mailed to to your hotmail account yesterday. Just re-sent again. |
| Pittbull02-27-04, 02:31 AM | Originally posted by cellardweller hmm, mailed to to your hotmail account yesterday. Just re-sent again. Jep, me too. sent the tactics a second too!:) :( :) :( :) :) |
| kattattack2202-27-04, 03:34 AM | Okay, about alignment. I picked true neutral because I have played neutral neutral characters, along with other alignments, and that is how I saw Ony as being. *My justification and motivations for Ony* ------------------------------------------------------ He is kind of a selfish person and a wanderer up until recently. He has a few things he likes to do and doesn't concern himself with "right" and "wrong". If he can do those things legeally, great. If he has to break a few rules and it won't hurt him fine. He has no special interest in helping anyone except himself, but takes no special pleasure in the pain of others. Ony likes fighting for test of mettle and skill, as well as, a desire to show off that skill. Some of this is in his background, other parts not so apparent. |
| Moherajikuyx02-27-04, 05:01 AM | Hi people! :) kedi left the boards, there's a change in the roster. Sorry for it to be so late. Vryk takes kedi's place. Mishka Utzaren, Bishop the Bardican vs. Vryk, ^Rayne^: Myrridin Neutrality: Cat, you kender! Respect the opinion of those who think the arena is an... Arena. Some pcs should be aligned, some should be not. I think humanity is neutral so I think it's correct to have a majority of neutrals. BTW there's one big drawback... Clerics. Non neutral clerics can't summon many things. |
| Caterane02-27-04, 05:11 AM | BTW there's one big drawback... Clerics. Non neutral clerics can't summon many things. To compensate, the right rule should be: True neutral clerics cannot summon extremely aligned creatures (LG,CG,LE,CE). I think there`s even a PrC out there where you have to chose opposed alignments and TN has the 4 extremes opposed. Fact is: without the benefits TN would be the alignment which no one takes. @Mag: Bruno is a character that stays in ones mind because he`s evil and does vile things. If he were TN then he wouldn`t be that famous. Just another gnome illusionist who doesn`t care about the worldview. When I write a story I have some problems coming up with something good for a true neutral character. In Jindl of the Hightforest`s case I used the burning woods to have him care about something. @Mo: If you want to play neutral, ok. I just want to see things balanced and not one alignment better then the others. There`s no reason not to be neutral unless your forced to do so because of a class alignment. My above example about the summons would be one step into the right direction. |
| ^Rayne^02-27-04, 05:40 AM | Sorry guys I must have missed them in my Junk mail folder. I try to keep on top of that but sometimes I miss things and I didn't realize both of you sent your tactics to me so early. Slaps head. Anyway I have both of them this time and I'm going to run your match first chance I get tomorrow. |
| Rosella02-27-04, 05:42 AM | Most people seem to use the selfish argument as a reason to take True Neutral. Maybe Chaotic Neutral would fit that bill better? If people think that the person really has no problems with laws etc. but just follows his own moral ethics, make it lawfull neutral as those people follow their own moral compass. Just my 2 cents. |
| Moherajikuyx02-27-04, 06:55 AM | Originally posted by Caterane To compensate, the right rule should be: True neutral clerics cannot summon extremely aligned creatures (LG,CG,LE,CE). I like that in a principle, but sadly it would make neutral clerics almost useless: check the list of summons. I fear cellar would oppose this quite strongly :) Cat - actually I have only 1 N pc out of 3, and he's correctly N in my opinion. |
| LLMadCow02-27-04, 09:05 AM | quote by Caterane The world has become neutral I am unsure hot to reply to this; I can neither agree or disagree. On one hand, many people do choose Neutral for the character alignment. On the other hand there are plenty of people who choose other viable alignments. If I recall correctly, the only character I have/had that is/was True Neutral would be Allister Swiftfoot - Druid. Neutral Evil - Currently down... Chaotic Good - Herrix Ignatius Chaotic Neutral - Lothar the Orc Neutral Good - Cliodhna d'Elrich Maybe I need to play some Lawful Characters... or maybe not. |
| LLMadCow02-27-04, 09:31 AM | @All - Please don't shoot me for this, but I have a small request for everyone. As some of you know, I am working on a small project with Caterane. (Okay, well calling small may be wrong, but it is a project none-the-less) What I am asking for is that EVERYONE who reads this take the time to send an e-mail to myself, LLMadCow (And Caterane if he posts and wants the information), that contains ALL of the FLAVOR text for your character(s). Please use this format for the e-mails, as I need to have some organizational theme to all the e-mails.... ---------------------Copy and Paste Below Here---------------------- Character Name: Character Race: Character Alignment: Character Description: (Anything YOU deem necessary: age, height, weight, personal style, clothing, eye color, hair color, attitudes, etc) Character Background: (This is backstory and information about where the character lives/lived. What the character did before the arena?) Character Life: (Where does the character stay when not fighting? What does the character do around the city? Where do they hang out? Favorite Bar/Tavern/Pub etc? Preferred Temple/Monastary/Crypt etc?) Notes: (Anything left out that you deem important) ---------------------------End Copy and Paste----------------------- Here is an EXAMPLE of what I am looking for..... ----------------------------Example------------------------- Character Name: Lothar the Orc Character Race: Orc Character Alignment: Chaotic Neutral Character Description: Tall, dumb and ugly. Lothar frequently wears Orange War paint for the arena. He has Black hair and red eyes. He's 6'1 and 285 lbs. Character Background: Lothar comes from the White Plains of Pleram. He was part of a nomadic tribe. He came to the arena to be guarnteed a battle every week. Character Life: Lothar worships no god, but he does drink a lot. He celebrates his wins at the Goldheart Tavern (Where people buy him good spirits to celebrate) and he washes away his sorrow over a loss at the Rusty Nail (Where he pays for his own cheap ale). Lothar lives in the arena dormitory, or the 'Stalls' as they have been called and eats at 'The Canteen', as the arena cafeteria hass been called. He occassionally spends some time in Arena Town's market place and occassionally goes down to the arena stables to spend some time with his faithful War-Pony, Billy. Notes: N/A -----------------------------End Example---------------------- You can be as brief or thourough as you wish. If you think I am missing something that should be documented, just put a note at the end of the message. You'll find my e-mail address (And Cat's) with all the other Mods. Thanks for the time. |
| Myrridin02-27-04, 10:10 AM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx kedi left the boards, there's a change in the roster. Sorry for it to be so late. Vryk takes kedi's place. Mishka Utzaren, Bishop the Bardican vs. Vryk, ^Rayne^: Myrridin Well then, I'll be needing those tactics as soon as you can send them to me. :) |
| Myrridin02-27-04, 10:35 AM | @xeno You need to redo your character, as you spent too many points on attributes. Str: 16 ..10pts Dex: 14 ..6pts Con: 18 (16 base +2 racial) ..10pts Int: 14 ..6pts Wis: 12 ..4pts Cha: 6 (8 base -2 racial) ..0pts I count that as a total of 42 points. 10+6+16+6+4=42. These are 36 point buy characters. Please redo your character to fit that. Edit: yep, wrong about this. Pay no attention to the math challeneged person in the corner. |
| kattattack2202-27-04, 10:57 AM | I count 36 10+6+10+6+4+0=36 the 18 is due to racial mod |
| LLMadCow02-27-04, 10:59 AM | Originally posted by Myrridin @xeno You need to redo your character, as you spent too many points on attributes. Str: 16 ..10pts Dex: 14 ..6pts Con: 18 (16 base +2 racial) ..10pts Int: 14 ..6pts Wis: 12 ..4pts Cha: 6 (8 base -2 racial) ..0pts I count that as a total of 42 points. 10+6+16+6+4=42. These are 36 point buy characters. Please redo your character to fit that. Um.... I count that as a total of 36. 10 + 6 + 10 + 6 + 4 + 0 = 36. That listing of Con: 18 (Base 16 +2 Racial) is saying: 10 points were spent on a con of 16 and then when you add the racial modifier of +2 it becomes an 18. It's all good. LL |
| Rosella02-27-04, 11:01 AM | ok??!?:OMG! Madcow and Caterane have me troubled now! Emailing it later tonight! |
| Ethendril02-27-04, 11:08 AM | (PPS: kiri, one day oetzi´ll get you...) She looks forward to a rematch, with flying arrows, sneaking rangers and rogues, and hopefully one dead wood elf.;) EDIT: Kiri's info sent to LLMadcow. |
| Myrridin02-27-04, 12:57 PM | Originally posted by LLMadCow Um.... I count that as a total of 36. 10 + 6 + 10 + 6 + 4 + 0 = 36. That listing of Con: 18 (Base 16 +2 Racial) is saying: 10 points were spent on a con of 16 and then when you add the racial modifier of +2 it becomes an 18. It's all good. LL Ahhh, my math skills leave me again. Thanks LL. |
| Bishop the Bardican02-27-04, 01:23 PM | Tactics Tactics sent for Urig the Usurper and Mishka Utzaren (Mishka's new match against Vryk) I still don't have tactics from Kaigan for Elinias. Questions When is the cutoff for sending tactics? (Eastern US) As a moderator how far should I go in fixing problems in a character's sheet? Both of my character's have skill point and equipment problems, and I do not want to allow an unfair advantage to affect my fight even if the mistake can be fixed when the character is reposted. |
| Myrridin02-27-04, 01:24 PM | Tactics have been received for Mishka. Still waiting for tactics from Vryk. If I have not received them by 10pm EST tonight, I will run with the standard tactics for Vryk. |
| Myrridin02-27-04, 01:25 PM | Bishop: I think 15:00 GMT+1 is equal to Eastern Standard time of 10pm. |
| Arstimis02-27-04, 01:57 PM | @ Bishop: I'm at school here with kaigan, and earlier today he told me he sent his tactics in on wednesday. If it isn't in any of you folders then I will ask him to recheck and resend them. On another note, myself, mustadio, batoussia(misspelled?) and kaigan all go to the same high school. It will be cool to see which of my friends win the archer battle. |
| ^Rayne^02-27-04, 02:15 PM | Myrridin, sorry I didn't get you the tactics sooner... I only knew I was going to fight yesterday and I didn't know against who. Mo posted it late last night but I didn't see it till this morning because my internet connection was very very slow last night and I was barely able to post that I had received tactics from the people I am running the match for. Anyway I just discovered who I am fighting and I'll get those tactics to you very soon. Thanks for waiting, they will be on their way shortly. |
| Myrridin02-27-04, 02:22 PM | Rayne: Not a problem. Looking forward to them. If I get them early enough, I may be able to run and post the fight tonight. :) |
| Bishop the Bardican02-27-04, 02:26 PM | @arstimis and kaigan I just rechecked my pm and email boxes. I have tactics for Pard only. Let me know if I can help get Enilias' tactics in somehow. Fight will be run Saturday morning. |
| Ethendril02-27-04, 02:31 PM | The fight between Aiki Auk vs. Aku has been posted. In honor of the combatants, all the text is made up of A's, I's, and U's only. Oh, and some K's, too. I hope it is an interesting read. -Ethendril EDIT: SPOILERS FOLLOW IN POSTS BELOW. |
| ^Rayne^02-27-04, 02:58 PM | Myrridin, check your email. Vryk's tactics should be there now. If you seen any mistakes let me know. I did them on the fly and there may be errors I missed. Thanks for waiting for them and I look forward to the match. Hopefully Vryk finally wins a match! Now I have to go check and see how Aiki did in his fight today. |
| kattattack2202-27-04, 03:10 PM | Originally posted by Ethendril The fight between Aiki Auk vs. Aku has been posted. In honor of the combatants, all the text is made up of A's, I's, and U's only. Oh, and some K's, too. I hope it is an interesting read. -Ethendril After that, I can't wait for the next episode!! I smell rematch. Originally posted by LLMadCow As some of you know, I am working on a small project with Caterane. What is the project exactly (besides collecting character flavor text) for those of us that don't know or maybe just don't remember? (Can't remember if it was discussed in this thread or not. ) |
| ^Rayne^02-27-04, 03:20 PM | I'm really very unhappy with the battle verses Aku... I studied up on my opponent but I didn't realize he could fly. I didn't even notice that darn scroll of alter self. Man I should have paid a lot more attention this. Still points for Jindl's creativity. I will have to be more diligent on studying my opponent next time. I knew he had some trick up his sleeve but I didn't see what it was till it was too late. Ethendril good job having to sort out 40+ rounds. That sort of thing can be a bit annoying. |
| Moherajikuyx02-27-04, 03:32 PM | I wanted to say welcome to xeno_eleusis and his dwarven barbarian wizard! To those who think that the core arena has few possible builds: get this! :thumbsup: And, good luck as a moderator to Arstimis - may the improved natural attack guide you! :behold: |
| Myrridin02-27-04, 03:37 PM | Inspire Courage: Does this take a standard action to maintain? I don't see where it is. I'm thinking that singing it, attacking, and moving is too much, but I could be wrong? One of these days I'm going to get a fight that's two fighters against each other, melee only. :D |
| xeno_eleusis02-27-04, 03:49 PM | A new character has been posted:Boafer Stonewill (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2690292#post2690292)Posted by Moherajikuyx I wanted to say welcome to xeno_eleusis and his dwarven barbarian wizard!Thanks for the warm welcome. I am new to this forum and although my friends are on EN World (http://www.enworld.org/forums/), I thought I would try out WoTC. |
| MotherBast02-27-04, 03:56 PM | Bard songs are a standard action to start, free action to maintain. I don't know how this is possible for bards who use instruments, but thats the way the book says to run it. |
| Myrridin02-27-04, 04:00 PM | Excellent, that's how I've been running it. Last question, on critical hits, do you just multiply the die roll, or do you actually roll the number of dice? Side note: My dice roller rolled more 20's in this fight than I've EVER seen in a fight between two people that's this short before. :) |
| Arstimis02-27-04, 04:03 PM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx And, good luck as a moderator to Arstimis - may the improved natural attack guide you! :behold: haha, thanks; and the only reason I'm dropping that is because I have a new character, and modding to keep me busy, hehe Oh and Caterane, just to make you happy, Laucian is now lawful good instead of neutral good :D |
| Arstimis02-27-04, 04:12 PM | Originally posted by Myrridin Excellent, that's how I've been running it. Last question, on critical hits, do you just multiply the die roll, or do you actually roll the number of dice? Side note: My dice roller rolled more 20's in this fight than I've EVER seen in a fight between two people that's this short before. :) from what I have seen if you crit on a dagger(19-20 x2) you would roll d4 twice |
| ^Rayne^02-27-04, 04:12 PM | On criticals you actually roll the dice Myrridin. Hope this helps... Lots of crits you say... I'm getting a bit frightened... ;) |
| Myrridin02-27-04, 04:18 PM | Let's just say that both fighters connected with a critical hit, and there were multiple threatens on both sides. Looks like I've run the fight, and it's over. I'll be posting it shortly. |
| ^Rayne^02-27-04, 04:19 PM | Just a few things I want to point out to you Myrridin about bard songs... Standard action to start it but here are some other notes... He can't cast spells, activate magic items by spell completion (activate scrolls) or activate magic items by magic word (like wands) while using his bard song ability. Some bard songs require concentration checks to maintain also. ;) |
| Myrridin02-27-04, 04:25 PM | Yeah, I noticed that. He stopped singing and the effects lasted for 5 rounds though, so he's in the clear. The fight is now up, btw. Let me know if there are any more errors here, especially those that change the fight. I think this one's clean, at least there was no druid to contend with. |
| ^Rayne^02-27-04, 04:38 PM | I haven't finished reading the fight yet so I don't know the outcome but one glaring error is that Mishka is a woman not a man, baby! ;) Just thought I would point that out to you. |
| xeno_eleusis02-27-04, 04:41 PM | Posted by Ethendril exerpt from the battle of Aiki Auk vs. Aku “Still standing, puny weakling?” Aku waved forward two larger robots, which struck Aiki in the chest before Aiki could destroy them [magic missiles, 4 damage, 1 damage].Magic missile, 1d4+1, with a range of damage between 2-5? |
| ^Rayne^02-27-04, 05:03 PM | xeno_eleusis that spell was caster level 9! That is one of the hidden secrets of Jindl's PC. He uses lots of mean tricks to down foes with very high level spells. Myrridin a couple more things I noticed. 1st: My PC used a potion of Protection from Evil, not Mage Armor. ;) You got this right during the fight but at the end you said I used a potion of mage armor. 2nd: His +20 insight bonus from True Strike should count in the conditions used to determine confirmations on a critical hit, I believe. 3rd: Potions of Shield of Faith and Protection from Evil should last only 10 rounds not 30. This isn't too important since it never went past the 10 round mark but it is something to keep in mind for the future. Overall I thought you ran a good battle and I appreciate you taking time out of your schedule to run it. Thanks! Man what is up with the boards! They are moving like molasses! |
| Druid Roxors02-27-04, 05:14 PM | Something important i noticed, on the last round of the fight, Mishka (0,-25) smells victory as he looks at the badly bleeding kobold, confidently he moves forward (0,-24) (AoO: 20!+7+20=47 vs AC 21, hits! Critical Threat: 18+7=25 vs AC 21, confirms!) (Damage: 9) his confident smirk is wiped off his eyes by the spiked chain that blasts into his upper chest. Mishka coughes blood from his mouth as his eyes roll up into his head. He collapses to the ground, unconscious and bleeding from a viscious wound. 5 Foot steps never provoke attacks of oportunity. I believe this is a desicive point in the battle and should be reconsidered. |
| Myrridin02-27-04, 05:18 PM | Druid: :censored::censored::censored::censored: , I forgot that. I may have to rerun the fight then. Damn it. I'll rerun it when I get back to work, unfortunately that's Monday. Rayne: I thought your caster lvl had to be 3rd to make potions. Hence the 30 round duration. So if Mashika is in melee with Vryk, Vryk has to move 10 feet back, and not attack for him to AoO's? Interesting, as Mashika would never close to melee, but just shoot him most likely then. Like I said, eventually I'll get two melee fighters with longswords and shields swinging at each other. :P |
| Ethendril02-27-04, 05:21 PM | Originally posted by xeno_eleusis Magic missile, 1d4+1, with a range of damage between 2-5? Yeah, looks like I forgot to add the +1 on the second missile. |
| SnarkHunter02-27-04, 05:21 PM | @Myr: When crafting any magic item you choose what to set the caster level at. SO you couldhave 30 round duration protection spells, but the majority are made to last 10 rounds. |
| ^Rayne^02-27-04, 05:22 PM | I believe Druid Roxors is correct under the circumstances... I should have noticed that myself. This might affect the outcome as the attack can be used on his move but that would mean that Mishka should get to hit first before my PC's attack using those rolls. That might affect the outcome and should be done to be fair. |
| ^Rayne^02-27-04, 05:27 PM | Myrridin it is doubtful that she would use his bow from 10' away because he would still be threatened by doing so. He could take a 5' step back to avoid this and shoot but then in these cases my PC would start each move by stepping 5' closer and attack a PC who is holding a ranged weapon (which isn't good for her). In any case the best thing to do would probably just run the last round as if she attacked first and see if it hits. Then use the rolls my PC made for the AoO as his normal attack. However if you think redoing the whole match is best so be it (although this will probably be a whole different match then). |
| Druid Roxors02-27-04, 05:31 PM | Originally posted by SnarkHunter @Myr: When crafting any magic item you choose what to set the caster level at. SO you couldhave 30 round duration protection spells, but the majority are made to last 10 rounds. Except on staffs tho, Minimum caster level is 8. |
| Jindl02-27-04, 06:01 PM | Originally posted by SnarkHunter @Myr: When crafting any magic item you choose what to set the caster level at. SO you couldhave 30 round duration protection spells, but the majority are made to last 10 rounds. Not entirely true my friend. In the arena, you can only buy wands and scrolls with variable caster levels. All potions must be bought at the standard caster level for the DMG. No potions that are not listed in the DMG may be purchased (though a character with the Brew Potion feat could craft their own). Also .... @Ethendril: Caster level 9 = 5 magic missile bolts, not 4. Though it is irrelevant for the fight result. @Rayne: Mean tricks? Really? Hrmmm, I know where you can get a good price on a daikyo... (samurai longbow). -Jindl |
| ^Rayne^02-27-04, 06:15 PM | I hate having to use a bow but it looks like if this is the problem I will be facing in future matches it will be needed. I guess I'm going to have to purchase one soon. ;) |
| Caterane02-27-04, 06:18 PM | The turkish shop put a ton of garlic into their food and I smell like donkey´s whole family so my chances for mating tonight are slim indeed *lol* so here I am. Anyway, I want to remind the moderators to put tactics and sheet information BEFORE the fight begins! The Myrridin fight didn´t even have them at all. When I read a fight I want to know who the gladiators are, and what tactic they thought out. Especially with new characters I have no idea what class/race they are. So please put the sheets and tactics at the beginning of the fights. |
| Jindl02-27-04, 06:20 PM | Originally posted by ^Rayne^ I hate having to use a bow but it looks like if this is the problem I will be facing in future matches it will be needed. I guess I'm going to have to purchase one soon. ;) 1. It is a samurai weapon. 2. It is needed, at least until you can afford a flying item or ally. 3. Aiki would be quite good, since he is a dex based fighter. -Jindl |
| Caterane02-27-04, 06:25 PM | @Rayne: Go ahead and read the Harvester vs Buttmunch (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1729801#post1729801) fight and see what happens if you don`t have a proper ranged weapon. Buttmunch was a kobold, btw ;) |
| xeno_eleusis02-27-04, 06:27 PM | Posted by Jindl No potions that are not listed in the DMG may be purchased...When I read the rules, I thought that scrolls had to be from the list in the DMG unless scribed, is it too late to change equipment? |
| Jindl02-27-04, 06:34 PM | Originally posted by xeno_eleusis When I read the rules, I thought that scrolls had to be from the list in the DMG unless scribed, is it too late to change equipment? Scrolls and wands are fully customizable within the Core rules for both caster level and metamagic. Armor and Weapons are fully customizable using all Core enhancements and special materials. No other magic items are customizable. Customizable means you can buy or craft the item. Equipment is not locked in until pairings, with rare exceptions made for rules arbitrations (like if the moderators rule that an item doesn't work the way the player thought, then that player may choose to refund the item at full price, as long as the player didn't use the item in a fight.) A recent example would be the Horseshoes of speed debate, where someone who bought horseshoes for their pegasus could return them a full value after the vote decided the item was animal only. Returning an item after the fight would normally mean reselling it a half market value (regardless of whether you purchased or crafted the item originally). So, you should be able to min/max your equipment until the next pairings day, which is next Wed. -Jindl |
| Hatzinger02-27-04, 07:25 PM | The fight is finished. I have to sleep now but will post it tomorrow. It lasted 17 rounds and was probably the longest ECL 2 fight ever. Took me the whole afternoon and even longer. Both combatants used nearly all their resources. [SPOILER:] the fight´s result is posted below, in white colour. . . . . . Corinthus has won. |
| Caterane02-27-04, 07:30 PM | @Hatze: Longest ECL2 fight is this one: Bruno vs Laucien (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1434729#post1434729) and definately the fight with the most written text. And it`s my personal favorite fight; the first one I moderated *sigh* |
| Hatzinger02-27-04, 07:35 PM | @Cat Ok, ok, your fight was longer. But mine was thicker. And i had the better technique. |
| Jindl02-27-04, 07:51 PM | Babar vs Targ is posted. [@Snark - make sure you read this one.] -Jindl |
| Battousai200502-27-04, 07:52 PM | Just something im curious about. Im considering making a character with a race that has an ECL +2. The problem is that the current forumal is 3 times the ECL -2. You can see the problem is that 3 times 0 is 0. Is there a special case here? |
| Jindl02-27-04, 08:03 PM | Originally posted by Battousai2005 Just something im curious about. Im considering making a character with a race that has an ECL +2. The problem is that the current forumal is 3 times the ECL -2. You can see the problem is that 3 times 0 is 0. Is there a special case here? Please be more specific what creature you are making. I think you may be confusing ECL and LA. -Jindl |
| Battousai200502-27-04, 08:06 PM | Yah, sorry bout that. Ok, I ment level adjustment. Its about equal to a celestial human or the like |
| Jindl02-27-04, 08:12 PM | Originally posted by Battousai2005 Yah, sorry bout that. Ok, I ment level adjustment. Its about equal to a celestial human or the like A celestial human Fighter 1, would be ECL 3 (1 class level or racial HD + 2 LA). Thus it would cost 3 credits. Also, no ECL >2 creature may begin with more than 1 class level, or his racial HD, whichever is less. -Jindl |
| Battousai200502-27-04, 08:16 PM | Thanks Jindl. The whole Ecl vs. LA threw me for a moment. So, moderate a few fights, suspend a character... Ack. This could be complicated! |
| sshuit02-27-04, 09:04 PM | Ony vs Grym is finished. Won't have time to polish and post until Sunday though... Or maybe tonight with no story and just the bare bones .... sshuit |
| Jindl02-27-04, 09:12 PM | Ha! I am post 6000. (I was post 1000, 2000, and 3000 also...) -Jindl |
| Battousai200502-27-04, 11:16 PM | IF YOUR A MODERATOR, KINDLY READ THIS! Sorry to cause trouble, but I changed my e-mail in my account. If Mo would be so kind as to note this. The reason is that this is actually a bit better and i check it more often. If there are problems, contanct me via PM. My adress is Magister2005@aol.com. Thanks |
| Battousai200502-27-04, 11:24 PM | Oops. Forgot to ask this. If a character is designed by a moderator(say, for example, me) as a second character and said character is deleted before he actually fights or does anything aside from occupy temporary space on the board. Does the Moderator loose the credit spent on the character? |
| Ethendril02-27-04, 11:33 PM | @Ethendril: Caster level 9 = 5 magic missile bolts, not 4. Though it is irrelevant for the fight result. I'm glad you enjoyed the fight.;) Yeah, I missed that... |
| Jindl02-27-04, 11:34 PM | Originally posted by Battousai2005 Oops. Forgot to ask this. If a character is designed by a moderator(say, for example, me) as a second character and said character is deleted before he actually fights or does anything aside from occupy temporary space on the board. Does the Moderator loose the credit spent on the character? Credits are not "spent" on a character until that character is paired for a fight. After that time, credits have been spent, even if you retire the character. Also, while it is possible to rename and restart ECL2 characters, this tactics is not available to higher ECL characters that were started using credits. -Jindl |
| Battousai200502-27-04, 11:37 PM | Much thanks Jindl. Once again, you saved my rear. You should think about being the one and only official arena instructer to dumb saps (ahem, me) :teach: |
| kattattack2202-28-04, 03:03 AM | Originally posted by sshuit Ony vs Grym is finished. Won't have time to polish and post until Sunday though... Or maybe tonight with no story and just the bare bones .... sshuit Please post the bare bones. It is fine for now. |
| Druid Roxors02-28-04, 03:53 AM | Woot!! Woot! Woot!! My demented and utterly complicated tactics (sorry Hatzinger ;) ) have paid off!! Can't wait to read it!! |
| Moherajikuyx02-28-04, 04:14 AM | Originally posted by Jindl Ha! I am post 6000. (I was post 1000, 2000, and 3000 also...) -Jindl *keeps looking for best lawyers vs. drug dealing charges* Originally posted by Jindl As you once explained to me, you cannot use all 3 natural attacks when grappling. You may only attack with one of your natural weapons, using your iterative Bab Yup: during the grapple. But I think one can attempt to begin it with the natural weapons' attack sequence..? Maybe? |
| ^Rayne^02-28-04, 05:48 AM | I know I have seen this posted by other people running fights but I'm going to add my voice here. When you post a PC you need to put down there load amounts and how much they are carrying right at the top of your sheet by your PC's speed. I really don't understand how people's PC's are considered finished without doing this first. Also some of you have been cutting a few items off the weight that really shouldn't be. I'm getting ready to DM a fight and one of the two PC's isn't even wearing clothing! He has studded leather armor strapped to a naked body according to the character sheet and no shoes from what I can tell. (Man was this ever a moment begging for caltrops). Weight is important especially when spells like Ray of Enfeeblement are thrown around. This informations should be listed and not left blank for DM's to have to figure it out on their own. Okay I've ranted but this is sort of bothering me and I know I'm not the only person who feels this way as I am certain some other people have brought this up also. |
| Caterane02-28-04, 06:11 AM | As you once explained to me, you cannot use all 3 natural attacks when grappling. You may only attack with one of your natural weapons, using your iterative Bab Yes you can. There are two options open to you. 1) You "Damage your opponoment" (PHB,p156) which means you make grapple checks, using your bab which defines the number of attacks you have. 2) You can "Attack you opponoment" (PHB,p156) which means you do not make grapple checks but attack normally with all you natural weapons, suffering a -4 penalty in doing so. The Annis even has a special ability which allows her to use all her natural weapons without the -4. |
| LLMadCow02-28-04, 06:14 AM | Originally posted by ^Rayne^ ...When you post a PC you need to put down there load amounts and how much they are carrying right at the top of your sheet by your PC's speed ... one of the two PC's isn't even wearing clothing... Just a remiinder.... Players Handbook, Page 131, Clothing A beginning character is assumed to have [an outfit]. This first outfit is free and does not count against the amount a character can carry. But, yes, we all need to record the appropriate weight information on our character sheets. I am just as guilty as so many others... |
| Moherajikuyx02-28-04, 07:34 AM | Originally posted by Caterane 2) You can "Attack you opponoment" (PHB,p156) which means you do not make grapple checks but attack normally with all you natural weapons, suffering a -4 penalty in doing so. No, Cat, that's wrong, read the rake entry in the MM: http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/TypesSubtypesAbilities.rtf Rake gives the annis the option of striking twice - once per claw - in a grapple, but still she can't use the bite. Animal grapplers are seldomly good: they are only if they constrict or rake usually. |
| Jindl02-28-04, 07:41 AM | Unfortunately for druids everywhere, Mo is correct. :D When grappling, you may use a natural weapon at your iterative bab, and you may also rake if you have that special attack. That's why when fighting Rito last week, Jindl chose the form of a dire lion to get the rake (since it seemed likely we would grapple). In dire lion form, Jindl would make two bites (at a BAB of 9/4 with a -4 penaltiy for attacking in a grapple) and also two rakes (at a BAB of 9 with no penalty for attacking in a grapple) if he began his turn grappling. But if he initiated the grapple this round, Jindl would not get the rake attacks. -Jindl |
| Caterane02-28-04, 07:43 AM | @Mo: Then explain me the difference between "attacking an opponoment" and "damaging an opponoment" @Jindl: You had no choice this time and approve to either me or Mo :D |
| Jindl02-28-04, 07:46 AM | Originally posted by Caterane Then explain me the difference between "attacking an opponoment" and "damaging an opponoment" Attacking an opponent means hitting their AC and dealing normal weapon (or natural weapon) damage. You can only attack with one weapon while doing this and it must be a light weapon (note that natural attacks are considered light weapons). Damaging an opponent means winning a grapple check and dealing unarmed strike damage appropriate for your size. A large creature deals a base of 1d4 subdual damage, a huge creature deals 1d6 subdual as a base. -Jindl PS: I wish it were otherwise, then my dire bear form could devastate opponents with all 3 natural attacks while grappling. But, rules is rules, and these are quite clear. |
| sshuit02-28-04, 08:49 AM | Sorry about the lack of flavor text at the moment. I have a super busy wknd ahead of me. Great strategies by both players. Too bad there can only be one winner. sshuit |
| Bishop the Bardican02-28-04, 09:08 AM | Spoiler Alert I just can not take this two weeks in a row. My character loses in a fight in which his tactics are unlisted. Last week the only problem was a missing spell, but there are serious tactical problems in the Mishka vs Vryk fight. Mishka was supposed to drop her bow, draw her rapier, and enter melee as soon as Vryk entered melee. This happens in round 5, but Mishka stands there firing arrows and taking attacks of opportunity through round 7. The only AoO in the fight should have been when Mishka drew her rapier. A 5' step never provokes an AoO. If it works for Vryk, it works for Mishka. I must ask for a posting of the tactics in this fight and a rerun starting at round 5. I hope people do not think I am being petty. My tactics were aimed around limiting the AoO, and my character takes several AoO. No swordfighter would stand there firing arrows while threatended in melee. Lastly, my character is a woman. |
| MotherBast02-28-04, 09:21 AM | Harvy 2 vs. Voliana done. Will be up in less than an hour. No story for this one. I'm feeling pretty uninspired and want to save all I have for Rito vs. Skymoon. Ok, its up now. Starting Rito vs. Skymoon. |
| Hatzinger02-28-04, 10:18 AM | Sorry for the lack of flavor text this time. To the fight: wow, these druids seem to swarm the arena. Doesn´t anyone have a cure against the druid-plague? [SPOILER] in silver colour (how is the grey background colour named? does anyone know? . . . Corinthus, your tactic worked perfectly. congratulations! (although it was quite an expensive victory. not phyrric, but still expensive.) And sorry Elkesh, but your failed Ref save in the first round ruined your whole tactics. If only you had taken more cure potions and arrows with you, you could have beaten him easily once his produce flame and flaming sphere scrolls were used up. He couldn´t have done much damage after that. Hmpf..... i start to dislike druids... (I have a ranger myself:cool: ) |
| MotherBast02-28-04, 10:31 AM | Rito v. Sky is done. Will be up shortly. I had incomplete tactics from Sky, but it didn't matter. Who knew Rito could pull off a Half round kill? |
| Battousai200502-28-04, 10:34 AM | Originally posted by Hatzinger Hmpf..... i start to dislike druids... (I have a ranger myself:cool: ) Could that be cause you know your gonna get beat by one this week? :fight!: Just Kidding! |
| MotherBast02-28-04, 11:04 AM | Ok, Sky vs. Rito up. Again, sorry for no story, I'm just lazy this weekend I guess. Spolier alet comming by the way. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * That nonsense about the first turn kill by Rito is just that. |
| Moherajikuyx02-28-04, 11:17 AM | :( MB why did you leave Rito frozen in round 5? - hide sequence: I don't never want to hide and stay there, he will just go and check behind that obstacle. I want to move behind an obstacle, and then attempt to go behind another obstacle hiding and moving silently. If this means that I have to forego a round, ok do so: I prefer to be safe from impalement and be late than being on time and impaled. Hiding and remaining in a place is silly, I think it's quite clear I didn't want to do that in the first part f the sequence. It's better to do anything else than that, even a full defence. |
| Druid Roxors02-28-04, 11:17 AM | Spells Memorized Base DC +4you did not wirte down 1/2 of your spells on your character sheet bevore the pairings!!!(next time i randomly choose spells for you) 0: Cure Minor Wounds x2, Flare, Detect Magic 1: Ninja x2, Unknown (b) thats 4 level 0 spells and 3 level 1 spells. I count 4 noted and 3 unknown. Corinthus stealthily (Move silently 3+8=11) draws another dart and fires at Elkesh (16+9 vs. AC 17=>success. 1damage). His flaming sphere still rests at Elkesh´s position (Ref save 7+6 vs. DC13=>success), who again dodges the burning globe, if only barely. About this and all other attack rolls by Elkesh, You didn't account for the -4 penalty on dexterity by entanglement. He would have failed this roll. You forgot to use the goodberies!! ( oh greedy am I.. ;) ) Good fight tho, thanks for moderating. (He didn't stand a chance!!! MUAHAHAHHAHA) |
| Caterane02-28-04, 11:26 AM | That nonsense about the first turn kill of Rito is just that. Why? He survived quite some rounds http://www.1a-network.de/grafik/guestbook/smilies/icon_lol.gif Hey Mo, when you update the Roster don`t forget to add a new entry to the unscathed winners section :cloud9: |
| Druid Roxors02-28-04, 11:39 AM | Question: Why can't i keep my animal companion in front of me? (after the first round, that is) I need just direct it and it would do it right? |
| MotherBast02-28-04, 11:49 AM | MO- you wern't frozen on round 5. You simply couldn't move to new cover. You only had 60' of movement, so only by moving twice in a round could you reach cover. You also had a potion in each hand, and wanted to drink your elixer of hiding before you started all the hiding. You could not drink the elixer without a hand free to draw it, so on round 5 you used one move to get to cover, and another move to store the SoF potion. So you used both of your moves. The next round you moved and drew, using both of your moves. The next round you moved, then drank. So it was not untill round 8 you had two moves available to you. If you haden't drawn the SoF, (for no apparent reason, by the way, I wondered about why you did this?) then you could have drawn the elixer instead and been double move and hiding as early as round 5. It would have been a completly different fight then. |
| Bishop the Bardican02-28-04, 11:52 AM | My first fight is up, Pard vs. Enilias Surion. Tear me to shreds, guys, I am here to learn. I hate to harp on the same topic, but will an experienced mod take a look at my earlier post and the fight, Mishka vs. Vryk. I don't think the posting of tactics should be optional, because for the second week in a row I am trying to argue about a document that no one else can read. It's a little hard to get any help or third-party perspective in this situation. |
| LLMadCow02-28-04, 11:52 AM | Originally posted by Druid Roxors quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Spells Memorized Base DC +4you did not wirte down 1/2 of your spells on your character sheet bevore the pairings!!!(next time i randomly choose spells for you) 0: Cure Minor Wounds x2, Flare, Detect Magic 1: Ninja x2, Unknown (b) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- thats 4 level 0 spells and 3 level 1 spells. I count 4 noted and 3 unknown. The way the listing for spells should work is like this: Level 0 - Cure Minor Wounds x2, XXX, XXX Level 1 - Shield of Faith, XXX, XXX This idea of listing 1/2 of the spells is that you list 1/2 of spells (Rounded down) for every level you cast. This includes bonus spells and domain spells. So if you cast: Level 0 - 5 = List 2, Hide 3 Level 1 - 3 + 1(d) + 1(b) = List 2, Hide 3 Level 2 - 2 + 1(d) + 1(b) = List 2, Hide 2 I think Clerics should ALWAYS list their domain spells since their opponent can always narrow it down to 2 spells to choose from. |
| Druid Roxors02-28-04, 11:58 AM | Ah, I see, thanks LLMadCow. (regardless, you can change the spells before the fight right?) |
| MotherBast02-28-04, 12:00 PM | The following is from the arena ruls, which may be found at the begining of the gladiators thread. On a fight posting there must be: the official version of both characters with the sent tactics highlighted, and the fight description. Dms may use an online roller (>this, for example) or roll at home, as they prefer. They have the responsibility of checking out the validity of a build and the correctness of the equipment. So, if you are not including the character sheets, tactics, and a fight description (which is usually done round by round), then you are violating arena rules. This rule has hardly been enforced to this point, but with the recent complaints, perhaps its time more people become aware of the rules a MOD must follow when posting a fight. Check the Modarator rules, where the one abouve came from, if your a new MOD to get a better understnading of what is expected from you. |
| LLMadCow02-28-04, 12:02 PM | Originally posted by Bishop the Bardican I don't think the posting of tactics should be optional, because for the second week in a row I am trying to argue about a document that no one else can read. It's a little hard to get any help or third-party perspective in this situation. Well..... Initial Post for the Gladiators Thread by Moherajikuyx On a fight posting there must be: the official version of both characters with the sent tactics highlighted, and the fight description. Posting tactics for both contestants IS NOT optional. According to the guidelines set forth in the arena rules for moderators they must be posted along with the fight description. Some people post them in another post immediately following the fight, and this is also acceptable. What matters is that everyone has access to the fights and the tactics for review. |
| MotherBast02-28-04, 12:03 PM | Druid, NO, you can not change the spells before the fight. Your opponit will prepare tactics with half of your spells known to him, and you must use those spells in the fight. You get to keep half your spells secret. This was a compromise between MO and most of the prepared casters, who felt there opponit should not get to know what they were preparing. MO felt that in a real D&D game, the caster would have prepared his spells before knowing what he was facing. NO method of listing prepared spells in advance, but keeping them secret from the opponit became popular, so this compramise became "offical." It has worked well since being instituted. |
| Caterane02-28-04, 12:10 PM | Tactics MUST BE POSTED before the fight begins! There is no discussion about that! Bishop approached me last week to comment some happenings in Marketshare`s fight (Urig vs Laness) but I couldn`t help him because there were no tactics nor positions or rolls listed. Now, please add the tactics so that Bishop can analyse the fight. Cat |
| Hatzinger02-28-04, 12:16 PM | Originally posted by Druid Roxors About this and all other attack rolls by Elkesh, You didn't account for the -4 penalty on dexterity by entanglement. He would have failed this roll. You forgot to use the goodberies!! ( oh greedy am I.. ;) ) Good fight tho, thanks for moderating. (He didn't stand a chance!!! MUAHAHAHHAHA) - I admit it. i forgot the goodberries. :) - where did you find the dex penalty thing for entangled characters? i used the spell´s description and the tables in chapter combat/favorable and unfavorable conditions. where can i find rules for the entangled dex penalty? |
| Druid Roxors02-28-04, 12:28 PM | Originally posted by Hatzinger - I admit it. i forgot the goodberries. :) - where did you find the dex penalty thing for entangled characters? i used the spell´s description and the tables in chapter combat/favorable and unfavorable conditions. where can i find rules for the entangled dex penalty? - Can i get a scroll back? ;) very greedy, but all money counts! - Special Abilities and Conditions (3.5 SRD) (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/AbilitiesandConditions.rtf) (near the end of the document, or search for the word "Entang") |
| Moherajikuyx02-28-04, 01:15 PM | Originally posted by MotherBast MO- you wern't frozen on round 5. You simply couldn't move to new cover. You only had 60' of movement, so only by moving twice in a round could you reach cover. You also had a potion in each hand, and wanted to drink your elixer of hiding before you started all the hiding. I intended the hide sequence to have the precedence over anything else: too bad, I learn to write clearer rules. Once again. :( BTW I don't know why I drew a SoF too. Bah, a thrown away fight. |
| Druid Roxors02-28-04, 02:04 PM | @ Moderators: Can you buy a Wand with less than full charges? (Buttmunch (sp) used such a wand once) |
| barrel_master02-28-04, 03:53 PM | Originally posted by Druid Roxors @ Moderators: Can you buy a Wand with less than full charges? (Buttmunch (sp) used such a wand once) No, we made that rule a while ago, after he used it I think. |
| ^Rayne^02-28-04, 06:37 PM | I just can not take this two weeks in a row. My character loses in a fight in which his tactics are unlisted. Last week the only problem was a missing spell, but there are serious tactical problems in the Mishka vs Vryk fight. Mishka was supposed to drop her bow, draw her rapier, and enter melee as soon as Vryk entered melee. This happens in round 5, but Mishka stands there firing arrows and taking attacks of opportunity through round 7. The only AoO in the fight should have been when Mishka drew her rapier. A 5' step never provokes an AoO. If it works for Vryk, it works for Mishka. I must ask for a posting of the tactics in this fight and a rerun starting at round 5. I hope people do not think I am being petty. My tactics were aimed around limiting the AoO, and my character takes several AoO. No swordfighter would stand there firing arrows while threatended in melee. Lastly, my character is a woman Bishop I don't think you have read all the posts since the DM posted that fight. He has already said he is rerunning the entire thing it looks like. I do agree that tactics should be posted, I don't have a clue why they weren't and I don't think it is right to leave this blank. I also pointed out to him that your PC is female but he didn't comment on it and I also agree that your PC would probably enter melee as described on you character sheet under default tactics (although I haven't seen them). I also pointed out to him that both potions (Shield of Faith and Protection from Evil) only last 10 rounds not 30. As for starting the fight over at 5th round I don't know about that. Sort of sucks for me because then you get to keep all your crit rolls and I lose all mine. If he is going to start over it should be from the beginning. I don't know what tactics you have setup for this match but I put in a number of varied ones for later rounds that I would have liked to see used. Based on what the DM wrote it looked like he would keep your PC using a bow if my PC kept moving back 10' spaces from your PC? So if you planned on using your rapier it looks like he is planning to ignore that and I for one would have liked to see your tactics listed and followed. Anyway I sympathise with you and I already said he should rerun the fights as it is the only fair thing to do. I have had a few fights go completely unfair against my PC but I've just had to swallow the bitter pill but I don't enjoy seeing it happen to other people. He said he was going to rerun it on Monday but I don't know what his plans are for the fight so PM him to find out. |
| Bishop the Bardican02-28-04, 07:03 PM | @Rayne and Myr I thought that I had seen all the recent posts on the fight, but I must have missed those. I have read then now. Sorry about the harsh tone and redundancy, guys. Thank you for the rerunning the fight. I did not mean to pick the 5th round to begin the rerurun to gain an unfair advantage. The 5th round is the first round that I attacked with the bow while you were in melee range. Start from wherever you think best. @all Thanks for enforcing/clarifying the posting of tactics. Losing+Confusion=Angry Online Roleplayer Losing+Clarity=Experience |
| Hatzinger02-28-04, 07:28 PM | Originally posted by Druid Roxors - Can i get a scroll back? ;) very greedy, but all money counts! - Special Abilities and Conditions (3.5 SRD) (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/AbilitiesandConditions.rtf) (near the end of the document, or search for the word "Entang") AWWWWwwwww..... I forgot to print that part of my SRD. And i never noticed it...:rolleyes: |
| Caterane02-28-04, 08:57 PM | Iron the Panza hunts his new mount. It was clearer than I thought... Fight (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2703470#post2703470) |
| Arstimis02-28-04, 09:05 PM | Originally posted by Caterane Iron the Panza hunts his new mount. It was clearer than I thought... Fight (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2703470#post2703470) Haha, nice one Caterane...... but can i ask why? |
| Caterane02-28-04, 09:08 PM | @Arti: Check the roster... |
| Arstimis02-28-04, 09:12 PM | Originally posted by Caterane @Arti: Check the roster... Haha oh..and someone told me a few weeks ago, that there are no fights that are perfect, and without errors.....I think this is it |
| SnarkHunter02-28-04, 10:44 PM | @Cat: A fearsome fow indeed. Man, 9 crits...who boy. @MB: One thing only, Moony's shield is animated now, so he still had the armor bonus when he was two handing the longsword. Good times. |
| Moherajikuyx02-29-04, 03:28 AM | :confused: :eek: :uh-huh: :rofl: Awful! That's the only cat I ever saw that I couldn't love immediately! (and I loved even Bad Pete inconditionally... Darn mouses.) |
| KerlanRayne02-29-04, 03:39 AM | @sshuit: Just a few points about the Grym vs Ony fight. Tactics said to turn invisible if fired on with bow, but you finished buffing first. Also, Ony's disarm and grapple attempts would both provoke AoO's. Wouldn't have changed outcome, but I thought I'd mention them. @Cat: Grym is True Neutral for RP reasons as his future could go either way, and his fight record reflects that. Win, Loss, Win, Loss, Win, Loss, Win, kind of unusual. KerlanRayne |
| Caterane02-29-04, 06:43 AM | Ok, the cat wasn`t that tough. Next time it will be one of my avatars and that`ll gonna be a BEHEMOTH CAT!! Can a 1st level paladin use scrolls with spells on his spell list even though he hasn`t access to them at the current level? |
| MotherBast02-29-04, 07:33 AM | @CAT: That question was in the FAQ a while back, and in Dragon mag. Yes, Pallys and Rangers can activate scrolls and wands and such even before they can actually cast spells. |
| Caterane02-29-04, 07:36 AM | And what would the caster level be? zero? |
| Moherajikuyx02-29-04, 07:54 AM | Bruno vs. Jindl posted. The loss was caused mainly by luck I think. Quicker tactics would have saved the day, maybe, but I can't swear, with that kind of luck: the winner failed no roll, the loser failed all. Since the fight was so short, I'll gladly keep on from any error I did, if you guys point it out before tomorrow. Rolls here (http://krisinchico.brinkster.net/searchroll.asp?username=BrunoJindl#92627 ). Sorry for the lack of descriptive text but this week I'm doing a lot of stuff: I'm preparing a surprise... :smirk: |
| MotherBast02-29-04, 09:25 AM | The CL is actually non existant, but as far as the math is concerned, thats as good as 0 I guess. @MO: In the Jindl vs. Bruno fight, how did you calculate Jindl's AC to be = to 22? Shouldn't it have been in the area of 40? He had 9 from his melded armor, 5 from the shield, he had the barkskin spell which put his nat AC at around 17 or so.... If the monks belt didn't meld, (which I think since a bear's hips are actually not as wide as its middle probably wouldn't work come to think of it) he would have also gotten the monk AC bonus. On top of that, he had DR 10/magic, and the giant's sword is only MW. I dont think any of the giant's attacks would have actually hit Jindl, but if any of them had, the damage from them should have been 10 less on each. So even if all 4 of the attacks you show hitting Jindl actually did, he took 40 less damage, and is still at 9 HP even if somehow is AC is only 22. |
| Moherajikuyx02-29-04, 10:16 AM | Doh! You're right, I forgot the armor. Let me recalculate. The monk's belt and the DR I considered already instead. *edit* mhh, I can't finish the fight today... It will have to stay there. |
| Alterlat02-29-04, 10:21 AM | @Cat & Motherbast: When the issue of paladin and ranger scrolls came up before, the conclusion was that they couldn't use scrolls until 4th level, but they can use wands straight away. I can't remember what the arguments and evidence were each way, but its still there somewhere in the thread (maybe near page 100??). The only thing I saw in the FAQ said that wands could be used, but there wasn't anything about scrolls either way that I could see. Edit: Just checking quickly, I noticed there were some discussions on pages 70 & 96 of this thread, and there could be more elsewhere. |
| MotherBast02-29-04, 11:00 AM | Al could be right Cat. I can't remember it ever being discussed on this thread, but I do remember it being in the FAQ. That was a good while back though, and it might have only mentioned wands. |
| Battousai200502-29-04, 11:33 AM | Does a larger weapon impose a cost increase? Also, should a character of a size category larger weild a smaller weapon, would this allow him to treat said weapon a weight category down? |
| Battousai200502-29-04, 11:56 AM | Almost forgot. If a character starts as an ECL higher then normal, does he get the wealth benifit of that level? |
| barrel_master02-29-04, 12:16 PM | Originally posted by Alterlat @Cat & Motherbast: When the issue of paladin and ranger scrolls came up before, the conclusion was that they couldn't use scrolls until 4th level, but they can use wands straight away. I can't remember what the arguments and evidence were each way, but its still there somewhere in the thread (maybe near page 100??). Unfortunately, I remember something totaly different. I thought we agreed that they could use scrolls at CL 0 just as long as they had the spells on their spell list. from the SRD To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements. • The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class.) • The user must have the spell on his or her class list. • The user must have the requisite ability score. If the user meets all the requirements noted above, and her caster level is at least equal to the spell’s caster level, she can automatically activate the spell without a check. If she meets all three requirements but her own caster level is lower than the scroll spell’s caster level, then she has to make a caster level check (DC = scroll’s caster level + 1) to cast the spell successfully. If she fails, she must make a DC 5 Wisdom check to avoid a mishap (see Scroll Mishaps, below). A natural roll of 1 always fails, whatever the modifiers. |
| Alterlat02-29-04, 12:35 PM | I could be wrong - there were certainly arguments both ways. It stuck in my mind because I had a level 2 or 3 ranger at the time and scrolls would have been pretty handy, but I got the impression that people felt it wasn't allowable. Still, I might just be remembering it wrongly, and even if I'm not, it doesn't mean its the right way to go. If you can find anything from a FAQ or official communication or something that clarifies it that would be great. |
| Jindl02-29-04, 12:47 PM | Alterlat is correct. Rangers/Paladins can use wands at 1st level, but can't use scrolls until 4th. I think the major factor was that rangers/paladins were not spellcasters until 4th level, and you have to be a spellcaster to use a scroll. @Magagumo + Mo - Nox does get an iterative attack with his bite. As an animal companion, he gets the "Multiattack special" which would be the multiattack feat if he had more than 1 natural weapons, but since he only has a single natural weapon, he gets an iterative attack. Please see the Animal Companion entry in the PHB for more info. This means Nox should get two bites at Bruno in Round 8... -Jindl FYI: Jindl's AC when buffed [dire bear wildshape, animal growth, +5 barkskin] should be 41. [-2 size, +0 dex, +9 armor, +5 shield, +5 monks, +14 natural]. |
| Magagumo02-29-04, 12:53 PM | @Jindl Huh, my respect and love for 3.5 druids only increases :-D |
| SnarkHunter02-29-04, 02:40 PM | Jindl: Since the monk's belt AC functions just like a Monk's AC wouldn't wearing armor prevent it from functioning? And just because your wildshaped doesn't mean you aren't wearing the armor... Also wouldn't the tower shield still bestow a -2 on attacks from encumberance? For that matter druids aren't even proficient in Tower shields, which would bestow an additional -10 penalty on all attacks! Edit: Hmm I may be incorrect. The description of the wild ability says that you preserve the armor bonus but not that it prevents the armor or item from melding and becoming nonfunctional. Wow, even for the CO board that's obscene. |
| Magagumo02-29-04, 04:03 PM | For a +3 bonus, it might make all that possible (though I'm not sure about the -2 on attacks from tower shield). Interesting to note, based on newest FAQ, any effects which cause you to have a penalty on melee attacks (shaken, prone, tower shield, Combat Expertise, Power Attack, etc.) Also causes you to have a penalty on grapple checks. I think we knew most of this, but yea, Tower Shields inhibit your ability to grapple. |
| Mustadio[MoF]02-29-04, 07:37 PM | How does armor for centaurs work? |
| sshuit02-29-04, 07:50 PM | @Kerlan Re : Invis you are right of course. My bad Re : Disarm and grapple, not if you have a 10' Reach weapon, you don't have anything to attack him if he is at 5'. Right? sshuit Originally posted by KerlanRayne @sshuit: Just a few points about the Grym vs Ony fight. Tactics said to turn invisible if fired on with bow, but you finished buffing first. Also, Ony's disarm and grapple attempts would both provoke AoO's. Wouldn't have changed outcome, but I thought I'd mention them. @Cat: Grym is True Neutral for RP reasons as his future could go either way, and his fight record reflects that. Win, Loss, Win, Loss, Win, Loss, Win, kind of unusual. KerlanRayne |
| KerlanRayne02-29-04, 08:02 PM | Originally posted by sshuit @Kerlan Re : Invis you are right of course. My bad Re : Disarm and grapple, not if you have a 10' Reach weapon, you don't have anything to attack him if he is at 5'. Right? sshuit Grym doesn't have any reach weapons. The Halberd doesn't have reach though it appears many make that mistake. KerlanRayne |
| Battousai200502-29-04, 10:18 PM | Originally posted by Mustadio[MoF] How does armor for centaurs work? I believe that centaur armor is considered unusual armor. Meaning that cost and weight are doubled(Probably why centaurs dont wear full plate.) :angel: |
| kattattack2202-29-04, 10:33 PM | Originally posted by sshuit @Kerlan Re : Invis you are right of course. My bad Re : Disarm and grapple, not if you have a 10' Reach weapon, you don't have anything to attack him if he is at 5'. Right? sshuit Neither Ony or Grym have reach so hew ould have gotten AoO. I factored that into my tatics. Ony didn't have a prayer unless he tried them. |
| LLMadCow03-01-04, 02:36 AM | Originally posted by Jindl Ha! I am post 6000. (I was post 1000, 2000, and 3000 also...) -Jindl Oh really? Post #3000? :nonono: I think not.... Originally posted by LLMadCow Post #3000 And if you don't believe me, check out Post #3000 (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2037866#post2037866) for yourself... :P |
| Moherajikuyx03-01-04, 04:22 AM | Originally posted by Jindl FYI: Jindl's AC when buffed [dire bear wildshape, animal growth, +5 barkskin] should be 41. [-2 size, +0 dex, +9 armor, +5 shield, +5 monks, +14 natural]. Uh? A fifth lvl monk has AC +1 not +5. If the character is not a monk, she gains the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th-level monk. This AC bonus functions just like the monk’s AC bonus. Doh for the iterative attack. Some rules are really hidden. Yea the wild stuff is incredibly broken. The tower shield should give the -2 though, it gives it "when employed". *Edit* ok the fight's done... I think it's the highest level fight I ever done. Tell me of any errors. Jindl you should send the stats for the shaped form, it would be a lot better for the mod to just have to check them instead of doing them from scratch. The tactics went astray after round 5, so I had to quite improvise following what looked to be the intent behind the tactics. I hope there aren't too badly wrong interpretations. |
| MotherBast03-01-04, 07:14 AM | @MO: The monk AC bonus also includes the monks Wisdom modifier, so anyone waring a monk's belt also adds there WIZ mod to AC. |
| Magagumo03-01-04, 08:45 AM | Actually MB, the Mionk AC bonus is the number listed to the left of the speed bonus, wearing a monk's belt would not grant you their incrediibly powerful ability of adding your wisdom to AC, and besides, Jindl is wearing armor, so that would theortically negate the bonus anyways. |
| Jindl03-01-04, 08:45 AM | @LLMadCow - Yes, you were Post 3000. :D @Mo - I did include the stats. You even posted them (they are at the end of my tactics.) Spoilers Other than an error in applying my tactics, I think you ran the fight well. I see no major errors in the rules, etc (other than what MotherBast has already pointed out). It looks to be a clean fight, except for the error in applying my tactics (see below) I never want to throw produce flames. Jindl is a melee druid. It is foolish to trade a ranged 1st level spell against a wizards arsenal. That's part of how I lost to the Harvester. I did not want to do ranged attacks (beyond my flamestrikes). My tactics explicitly said to get him in melee. They even said to run if necessary. Why didn't I run to get him in melee instead of trading a 1st level spell vs his high level ranged spells? My tactics said to cast flamestrikes then to run/airwalk/ whatever to get him in melee. I would rather the bear had run at him for 3 rounds and died than to move 50 feet a round and throw produce flames at him. Yes, he may have had another DD, but when he casts it, he isn't attacking me. It is entirely possible I could have gotten within melee of him and him have run out of DD's. I'm not sure why that wasn't attempted, but it was very clear in my tactics. For all the moderators who may ever run a fight with my druid: Don't ever, ever, ever throw a produce flame. I do NOT cast that spell to use as a ranged attack. It is only for enhancing melee damage. -Jindl |
| Jindl03-01-04, 08:51 AM | @Mag - Read the "Monks AC Bonus" description in the PHB. It says: "When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds her wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC. In addition, a monk gains a bonus to AC at 5th level." And when Jindl wildshapes, his armor melds into his form. He is no longer wearing armor at that time. He is a normal bear (albiet with lots of druid levels.) I don't see how you can say that when the armor melds into the form, the animal is still wearing armor. I think by definition that your are unarmored if your armor has melded into your form and become nonfunctional. You realize that the weight and encumbrance of the armor also disappear when melded into your form? That's right, the armor becomes part of your body, and its weight becomes part of the weight of the new form. So how can you be wearing it, when it is part of your body? -Jindl |
| Myrridin03-01-04, 09:23 AM | Originally posted by Bishop the Bardican Spoiler Alert I just can not take this two weeks in a row. My character loses in a fight in which his tactics are unlisted. Last week the only problem was a missing spell, but there are serious tactical problems in the Mishka vs Vryk fight. Mishka was supposed to drop her bow, draw her rapier, and enter melee as soon as Vryk entered melee. This happens in round 5, but Mishka stands there firing arrows and taking attacks of opportunity through round 7. The only AoO in the fight should have been when Mishka drew her rapier. A 5' step never provokes an AoO. If it works for Vryk, it works for Mishka. I must ask for a posting of the tactics in this fight and a rerun starting at round 5. I hope people do not think I am being petty. My tactics were aimed around limiting the AoO, and my character takes several AoO. No swordfighter would stand there firing arrows while threatended in melee. Lastly, my character is a woman. If you read my previous post, I stated that I was going to rerun starting about that round. Calm down and wait for about an hour. I don't have time to run these fights on most weekends, so I run them during my off time at work. It will be corrected and up at an hour. |
| Caterane03-01-04, 09:23 AM | I just put my lunch aside because I can´t bear to read this anymore! Jindl, I already told you that it is NOT possible to combine armor - even when wildshaped - and get the monk`s Ac. I don`t want to write everything again so here`s the PM I sent Jindl some days ago: Originally posted by Caterane: So what is the definition of "Nonfunctional"? You don`t get its armor bonus nor do you suffer its drawbacks. But does this mean you do not wear it? No way. "Nonfunctional" is not "unarmored". The wild shape description "cannot be seen" backs this up even further. "Cannot be seen". Think of this for a moment. No sane DM would allow this! You are not objective because you play such a character and want to see this rule enabled but it`s about balance and not juggling with the words until they suit your purposes. I am curious. What did the others say? Since you didn`t reply I thought you droped the idea but now I have to see it in the Jindl vs Bruno fight. It is not even 100% clear if the belt adds your wisdom bonus but that`s unimportant anyway because you are armored. I am not finished. Your gear melts with your form which includes rings, armor, belts and stupid hats, and they go nonfunctional! If common sense is not enough then I just refer to the undeniable proof on page 167 of the Magic of Faerun book where it reads: Magic item: Wilding Clasp Appearing as a 3 inch long gold chain this item only works when attached to an amulet (or similar item). The clasp prevents its attached item from melding into the wearer's new form when transforming magic is used, allowing the item to be used in the new form. For example. a druid with a wielding clasp attached to her Periapt of wisdom could take the shape of a wolf (which normally doesn`t use equipment) and have the periapt remain in the new form, fully functional. It couldn`t be any clearer. So no more overdressed animals. Next point: reading scrolls when in bear form. What the...? This is sooooo ridiculous! Asides from the items (including scrolls) melting into the new form and going nonfunctional, you surely cannot draw a scroll when you are a bear!!!! And how are you going to activate it? A bear cannot speak and natural spell works on memorized ones only! You cannot write "Moooooo" on the scroll just to be able to activate it as a cow. This is so damn stupid! Ha, and you don`t even have scribe scroll! I noticed some dubious things you were doing some time ago but I kept quiet and thought 'Let him have his fun' but now you`re overstepping bounds. If you want to play an effective druid then write better tactics or have more luck, whatever, but don`t twist, bend and break the rules where you see fit! Lunch's cold now but that had to be said. Cat |
| Moherajikuyx03-01-04, 09:52 AM | Jindl: but you couldn't reach Bruno anyways if running... The problem is the airwalk spell. It doesn't let you move directly upwards so Bruno, with the fly spell, will always be able to outmanouver you (like he does once), barring extreme tactical manouvers - but I'd expect these to be in the tactics. :( Wait - Bruno outmanouvered you in a draft. Yes, I tried to reach him runnning twice, but then he simply moved directly upwards, and this prevents an air-walker from reaching him, as you had to move upwards like if on a circular stair. Half movement, a lot of side steps, turns so no running makes life a hell for a pursuer. I redid that part of the fight, for another error in the draft, and I unconsciously used that fore-knowledge. I actually helped the druid abit... Well, probably not, as he should have known the intrinsic problems of airwalk. I think that a shapechange at any point, even in an eagle, or dire bat, would have done wonders. |
| Moherajikuyx03-01-04, 09:54 AM | BTW Zorander vs. Spike posted... Some faith in one's pc could do miracles, if there's any. |
| Moherajikuyx03-01-04, 10:15 AM | People... Expect BIG news in the near future... Maybe tomorrow... maybe wednesday... |
| Jindl03-01-04, 10:16 AM | Originally posted by Moherajikuyx Jindl: but you couldn't reach Bruno anyways if running... The problem is the airwalk spell. It doesn't let you move directly upwards so Bruno, with the fly spell, will always be able to outmanouver you (like he does once), barring extreme tactical manouvers - but I'd expect these to be in the tactics. :( Wait - Bruno outmanouvered you in a draft. Yes, I tried to reach him runnning twice, but then he simply moved directly upwards, and this prevents an air-walker from reaching him, as you had to move upwards like if on a circular stair. Half movement, a lot of side steps, turns so no running makes life a hell for a pursuer. I redid that part of the fight, for another error in the draft, and I unconsciously used that fore-knowledge. I actually helped the druid abit... Well, probably not, as he should have known the intrinsic problems of airwalk. I think that a shapechange at any point, even in an eagle, or dire bat, would have done wonders. Ahh, okay. I'll have to write in a flying wildshape into my tactics next time. Thanks for explaining how futile the "running after him" was. I still think you ran a good fight, I just hate to see my druid throwing produce flames (especially after that loss to the Harvester). I also need to come up with a way to deal with spectral hand... -Jindl |
| Moherajikuyx03-01-04, 10:25 AM | Originally posted by Jindl I still think you ran a good fight, I just hate to see my druid throwing produce flames Oh thanks, and sorry about. If only I had more time this week. I had in mind a sidewalk with Yogi featuring Jindl, Bubo featuring Nox and The Ranger featuring Agamemnon... ;P |
| Myrridin03-01-04, 11:05 AM | The corrected Vryk vs Mishka fight is up. Complete with lots of melee, and the gender is correct for Mishka. Sorry for the error, I didn't have as much time to ready for this fight as usual, and missed a salient rules point or two. Close fight, even closer this time than last, interesting ending. Enjoy. On a side note: I'm hoping to eventually win a freakin' match in the arena. I'll rename Elkesh, and more than likely try again...maybe I'll go with a cleric at some point, they seem popular. :) |
| Druid Roxors03-01-04, 11:35 AM | Originally posted by Caterane I am not finished. Your gear melts with your form which includes rings, armor, belts and stupid hats, and they go nonfunctional! If common sense is not enough then I just refer to the undeniable proof on page 167 of the Magic of Faerun book where it reads: ... It couldn`t be any clearer. So no more overdressed animals. Next point: reading scrolls when in bear form. What the...? This is sooooo ridiculous! Asides from the items (including scrolls) melting into the new form and going nonfunctional, you surely cannot draw a scroll when you are a bear!!!! And how are you going to activate it? A bear cannot speak and natural spell works on memorized ones only! You cannot write "Moooooo" on the scroll just to be able to activate it as a cow. This is so damn stupid! Ha, and you don`t even have scribe scroll! Cat Few things to point out, First of all, that quote (and the wilding clasp, for that matter) are worthless now. If you haven't noticed, wildshape changed from 3.0 to 3.5. The wilding clasp is not necesary anymore. Magic of faerun is 3.0 which makes that argument irrelevant. Second, natural spell lets you cast spells by completing the components it needs. Never within the feat does it specify it must be a memorized spell. 3.5 SRD NATURAL SPELL [GENERAL] Prerequisites: Wis 13, wild shape ability. Benefit: You can complete the verbal and somatic components of spells while in a wild shape. You substitute various noises and gestures for the normal verbal and somatic components of a spell. You can also use any material components or focuses you possess, even if such items are melded within your current form. This feat does not permit the use of magic items while you are in a form that could not ordinarily use them, and you do not gain the ability to speak while in a wild shape. A scroll is a spell completition item, it only requires the final gestures and components for the scroll to activate. 3.5 SRD Spell Completion: This is the activation method for scrolls. A scroll is a spell that is mostly finished. The preparation is done for the caster, so no preparation time is needed beforehand as with normal spellcasting. All that’s left to do is perform the finishing parts of the spellcasting (the final gestures, words, and so on). To use a spell completion item safely, a character must be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already. If he can’t already cast the spell, there’s a chance he’ll make a mistake. Activating a spell completion item is a standard action and provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does Lastly...Originally posted by Caterane So what is the definition of "Nonfunctional"? You don`t get its armor bonus nor do you suffer its drawbacks. But does this mean you do not wear it? No way. "Nonfunctional" is not "unarmored". The wild shape description "cannot be seen" backs this up even further. "Cannot be seen". Think of this for a moment. No sane DM would allow this! You are not objective because you play such a character and want to see this rule enabled but it`s about balance and not juggling with the words until they suit your purposes. You are ommiting one word on this quote by your convinience. "Melds" into your new form AND remains unfunctional. Melding into your new form explicitly says that it is part of you, nothing you wear can be a part of you. You can't give yourself proeficiency penalties and you are not armor. Are my arguments understandable? note: If you think bears are not capable of fine manipulation I would concurr, if only I had never seen bears in the discovery channel, Ever seen a bear handle a fish? Its quite impressive. |
| Ethendril03-01-04, 12:30 PM | So does a monk belt allow you to apply your wisdom modifier, or just that little +1 bonus? I'm thinking of getting one, and this would decide it for me... -Ethendril |
| Druid Roxors03-01-04, 12:36 PM | @ Jindl: There are several ways to deal with spectral hand. 1- Dispel Magic 2- Ready an action to hit it when it attempts a touch attack. (50% miss chance, 1d4 hitpoints) 3- Something important, The hand would have died, this is why: 3.5 SRD After it delivers a spell, or if the hand goes beyond the spell range, goes out of your sight, the hand returns to you and hoversWhich would make it a target of the various Flamestrikes you delivered. Counting for improved evasion and 50% miss chance, at least 1 out of the 3 flamestrikes should have done some damage. since its hitpoints are soo low, It would have died. Note: You should have attempted (within your tactics, obviously) a Greater Dispel Magic (area) at the Gnome. That would target the spectral hand and (Fly or Mislead) |
| Druid Roxors03-01-04, 12:38 PM | Originally posted by Ethendril So does a monk belt allow you to apply your wisdom modifier, or just that little +1 bonus? I'm thinking of getting one, and this would decide it for me... -Ethendril The monk's belt allows you to gain the AC bonus of a level 5 monk which is: WisMod + 1. Yes, you get Wis to AC +1 only when you are unarmored (Or wildshaped) |
| Caterane03-01-04, 12:56 PM | First fight finished Iron hunts a Megaraptor this time (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2716991#post2716991) ...the cat didn`t do him any good. Beginning next fight. @Druid Roxor: You don`t play a druid, do you :rolleyes: |
| Ethendril03-01-04, 01:07 PM | @Cat: I just read the Iron fight, specifically the end. You are a very bad man. |
| Druid Roxors03-01-04, 01:11 PM | Originally posted by Caterane @Druid Roxor: You don`t play a druid, do you :rolleyes: BUT OF COURSE NOT!!! What in the world would make you think that!! :D By the way, are you going to discuss what I posted or dismiss it? (Since I have a druid, its good to know what rules will apply) |
| Druid Roxors03-01-04, 01:20 PM | @ Jindl: And don't forget that the second and third time the evil gnome used Spectral hand the hand had to move from his person towards you, provoking a pair of attacks of oportunity. |
| Caterane03-01-04, 01:27 PM | @Druid: Are you Jindl's little brother? |
| Druid Roxors03-01-04, 01:30 PM | Originally posted by Caterane @Druid: Are you Jindl's little brother? Ill take that as a "you win". Note: Never met him. Since I play a high level druid and have survived many trials, I know what to do when trouble pops up. Which is why I find answering to "Druid questions" easier. PS: I would never allow any player in my campain to use armor and monk's belt, but thats just me, and this is the Optimization board. |
| Caterane03-01-04, 01:35 PM | :looloo: Hey, if he forces you to say stupid things because he`ll take away your toy gun or tears your homeworks apart then just tell us! :D :D :D |
| Druid Roxors03-01-04, 01:42 PM | Originally posted by Caterane :looloo: Hey, if he forces you to say stupid things because he`ll take away your toy gun or tears your homeworks apart then just tell us! :D :D :D You are just mad I won the argument! :nonono: Your petty insults mean nothing to me! :D |
| Magagumo03-01-04, 01:44 PM | @ Cat *Big Smile* Yea, I'm really not sure about the armor and monk belt thing, Jindl, Wild armor might avoid the penalties, but I'm fairly sure it's still worn armor. I'd be up for allowing you to refund it, however, if it pans out that the two shouldn't stack. No hard feelings and all (gots to focus on getting me a new Storm Giant anyways, nice job of smashing him ;)) As for the Spectral Hand, I suppose you could hold an action to Flame Strike as I put a new spell in it (as per Iron), the hand could make the save w/ improv. evasion, but if it fails, those 1-4 hp are toast. I don;t believe the hand provkes an AoO, however, as it's size is not determined, and it theoretically could be withdrawing each turn (thus no AoO from leaving the threatened Square). Yea, I'd say area effect is the way to go. Now Moh, I had tons of faith in Zorander, but losing initiative was certain death at that point. ;) Stupid 1's. :P At least I didn't waste even a single arrow :D As for the ally debate, one would just slow me down.. and eb major prey. It's similar to Bruno's situation, he can quite easily dissappear, but if he leaves an ally behind, they become the target. |
| Druid Roxors03-01-04, 01:48 PM | @ Magagumo: But remember the 10ft reach a Dire bear has while Growthed. I ment AoO for approaching, but I guess it could also provoke an attack when retreating. (since the withdraw action ignores the square you are in, but not the 10ft reach square). Anyways, the rules are unclear about the size and reach of the hand. I woulnd't know how to rule this. By teh way, why didn't you meld into stone in the first round? |
| Caterane03-01-04, 01:52 PM | @Druid: You won when I say "You`re right". I just have a) no time to deal with the issue b) it`s obvious to me that it won`t work c) I want to wait for others to post. Here`s a little trailer for the Donkey vs Ilene fight... Donkey vs Ilene McPinguin (http://www.alpha-tierchen.de/pinguin/pinguin_blutig.html) I got 657 Edit: 722.3!! |
| Druid Roxors03-01-04, 01:58 PM | @ Cat: 737 Owned! |
| Arstimis03-01-04, 02:14 PM | Don't worry druid, the same thing happened to me with Improved Natural Attack :-P It ended up going something like this: I state my point, they send me a counter point, I counter their counter point, they dismiss it and send a new arguement, I counter that, its dismissed......the dismissing/ignoring came sooner for some people Of the 8 people I sent it to, only 3 responded, the 3 I knew would say no...the rest just ignore me...its sad. But no hard feelings :-D Btw...where are all the fights? |
| ^Rayne^03-01-04, 02:24 PM | Lance Vs. Angosh will be up soon... I'm still running it but at the moment I have pleny of time to work on it. I'll let you know when the fight is up. |
| Caterane03-01-04, 02:24 PM | It went more like that: 8 people said 'NO!' backing it up with arguments You continued to quote and rant (always the same stuff) 8 people tried to convince you otherwise ...100 posts later 8 people were sick of always telling the same to you You wrote to the senior mods who made a decision. Discussion ends. |
| SnarkHunter03-01-04, 02:40 PM | Cat thats...very disturbing... (894.9) You got my PM right? |
| Jindl03-01-04, 02:43 PM | @Druid - Thanks for responding so eloquently to Cat's argument. I was preparing my own response, but you put it so well, that I will just concur. Also - I didn't meld into stone because: a) As a huge creature (animal growthed dire bear) I need a huge stone, and there aren't any in the arena, since we can no longer use the floor. b) I have tried to develop a fast attack strategy, using quickened spells and few buffs. It worked well (destroying his giant skeleton), but I lacked the mobility and ranged attacks to kill Bruno. I'll be better prepared for "phase 2" next time. C) Its too easy for the giant skeleton or Bruno to damage the rock enough to eject me forcefully (disintigrate, massive sword damage, etc.) @Mag - Good fight. It's getting closer everytime, the druid may just get you next time (especially since at level 13, I can cast heal). @Arstimis - Actually, both LL and I were supportive of Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike). I still think it is allowed, and my DM does allow it in our game (though I do not play a monk). But, LL and I were outvoted among the Senior Mods. -Jindl |
| Caterane03-01-04, 02:46 PM | @Snark: 894.9? Well, you ARE Donkey. PM, yes. Very honorable. |
| Druid Roxors03-01-04, 03:06 PM | @ Jindl: No problem, It wouldn't be convinient for my character that the Monk's belt bonus gets outrulled, which is why I had to comment on it. You should buy extra Heal scrolls, you can never have enough heals. The Meld into stone argument was directed at Zorander, not you, its obvious that a huge dire bear wont fit :) |
| Caterane03-01-04, 03:32 PM | @Jindl: Sorry if my earlier words were a bit harsh. The meaning stays the same though. I know you just want to pull the most out of the rules but this is way over the boundaries, no matter who you want to interpret the words. Perhaps a senior mod call would be appropriate. |
| Myrridin03-01-04, 03:34 PM | Cat: So you mean the fact that Druids can be non-proficient in armor, then meld and suffer no penalties but get the bonuses is broken? Yeah, I agree with you. |
| Jindl03-01-04, 03:39 PM | It shouldn't be a discussion of whether the Wild enhancement for armor is "broken". It's clearly within the 3.5 rules. Its also about the most expensive armor enhancement you can get (keep in mind that my druid has effectively +4 armor and +4 shield.) The discussion should be whether "melds into your form" means that you are not wearing armor. I think it is very clear that this is exactly what it means. How can you be wearing something that has melded into your form and is now a part of you? -Jindl |
| Caterane03-01-04, 03:42 PM | Suggestion: We give the others time to respond and hear what they have to say. If you or I are still not satisfied with the general opinion we call a senior mod decision. |
| Arstimis03-01-04, 04:03 PM | @Cat: yes of course you're right 8 people said no..wait, Jindle just confirmend his ans LL's YES response. The only ones I remember saying NO are you, mo, and tellish. Mo being the only one that seemed to consider what I said. I will recall what happened between me and you. I sent my arguement, you responded with counter points, to which I sent counter to your counter point, then you sent a responce something like.....No, that's not how its done...... . So I took that to mean, if I don't agree, it can't be right. I am thankful to Mo who actually took time to read and respond to everything I sent So...right now the senior mods vote is 3 to 2...a couple still have yet to say anything Thanks again for renewing my argument by completely ignoring facts (the 8 said NO thing) Sorry to the rest for bringing it up again, cat made me do it |
| MotherBast03-01-04, 04:11 PM | I belive the monks belt question was answered in Dragon Mag over a year ago. Yes, you get the WIS bonus to AC. I keep all my Dragon back issues, so I'll look it up when I get time and post the word for word response and what issue it was in. If it wasen't in Dragon, it was in the FAQ. There always nearly identical, so its hard to tell them apart sometimes. Also, melded armor is no longer armor. It does grant the creature an AC bonus, but it is no longer armor in and of itself, so it wouldn't stop a Monk's AC bonus. That is the real power of the Monk/Druid build I am copying with Dra'kel at this moment. Jindl is trying to use the Monk's Belt to get the same effect. Still, its the Same combo, and this discussion happened over two years ago on the Min/Max thread, and the offical, as in Sage, if you concider that official, answer was that melded armor does not stop the monk AC bonus, which does include WIS, so the wildshaped druid with wildshaping armor gets the monk AC and the armor AC. However, in the case of a bear, it would be unable to ware a belt, so its irrelevet. To ware a belt, the creatures hips must be larger than its middle, or it must have something along the lines of belt loops to hold the belt up. Jindl I know you live in round abouts the same part of the country as me, so you have probably seen as many bears as i have. I have never seen one with bigger hips than middle. Bears look like a top when they stand up, huge at the shoulders, and progressivly smaller the farther down you look. So, while it wouldn't have mattered in this fight, a Druid with a single level of monk adds WIS +1 to AC when wildshaped. That is the whole "trick" to the Monk/Druid build, which has been around for years, and was long ago established as "working." |
| Aerk03-01-04, 04:14 PM | As a character who plays a high level Monk, I think it is obvious what the intent of the Monk's Belt is. 13,000 for +1 to AC and +wisdom modifier, as well as 1d8 unarmed damage for non Monks? Please, it is quite obvious that such was -not- the intention of the item. Yes, the wording is unclear, but a 13,000 for +1 (unamed) bonus to AC as well as 1d8 unarmed damage is a reasonable deal. +Wisdom modifier is not. So, while you can rules lawyer that This AC bonus functions just like the monk’s AC bonus. I can say "Oh, but it says AC bonus not AC Bonus (Ex)". The AC bonus granted to the Monk is +1 at 5th level, the AC Bonus (EX) class feature adds +wisdom. Frankly, I don't care what Dragon said in regards to this: while I understand and think the Monk/Druid build is fine, having an item duplicate what it takes a level of a class to accomplish is not. |
| Caterane03-01-04, 04:20 PM | Rosella got 852.2!! I say she used her jump modifier to get that far :D @Motherbast: You play a druid too, right? :smirk: As for the bear: I`m sure Druid Roxor meant Baloo from the Jungle book or something when he told me a bear can read scrolls and speak the activation sequence |
| Rosella03-01-04, 04:27 PM | A score that belongs to Ilene McPenguin!: 964.3 (Don't have much to do while waiting anyways ;) ) Edit: and yes, I'll quit playing around now! :angel: |
| Arstimis03-01-04, 04:31 PM | Cat...there you go again ignoring facts The rules that druid quoted specifially state that it can complete verbal components for spells. And the ability to read should be no arguement, you keep your intel. Baloo was a very intelligent bear :D Oh, and how come when I argue you call it ranting, but when you do it, it's not? |
| MotherBast03-01-04, 04:36 PM | @Cat, yes, I started a Druid, and specificly to use this Combo. I didn't know Jindl was going to try it with the Monk's belt when I started Dra'kel. Personaly, I think the monk's belt method is inferior, because in core only, there is no way to keep the belt from melding into the new form. But, I don't support this combo because I play a druid. I play a druid because I already knew about this combo. Like I said, it ain't new. Its been around since way before 3.5, and since no one else has used it yet, or had when I started Dra'kel, I figgured I'd give it a go. I never tried to hide what Dra'kel was going to do though. When I created him, I anounced on this thread that he was going to be a direct copy of the Monk/Druid from the old Min/Max board FAQ, so anyone could have gone there and seen exactly how Dra'kel was going to develop. Fact is, acording to the guys who get paid to make these decisions, the combo is legal. Jindl was only the first person to exploit it, and that only because Dra'kel isen't high enough level to wild shape yet or I would have been the one to do it. To be honest, concedering this is the CO thread, I'm supprised that more people didn't already know about this combo. Its not a well keept secret or anything. And arti, I sent you a response to your INA question. To be quite honest, I thought MO was joking when he said I was a senior MOD, so I never responded. It wasen't till CAT said 8 out or 8 that I realized my vote was being counted. Just so the rest of the senior MODs know, I voted with Jindl and LL, so the count is 3 to 3 now on that issue. I have a player using a monk in the game I am running now, and I allowed him to take the feat at level 9. He is level 11 now, and so far I haven't seen any major impact on the game by allowing it. His average damage incressed by 2 to 3 per hit, which since his STR is only 14, still dosen't come close to the pally or even the rouge in the party. |
| Caterane03-01-04, 04:37 PM | Sorry to the rest for bringing it up again, cat made me do it Actually you began with the topic when telling Roxor how unfair the issue was handled. I just responded. Perhaps it weren`t 8 guys, what do I know, but don`t think I didn`t check the issue back and forth. Just because I don`t share your opinion doesn`t mean I ignore you or your mails. I don`t know what the other mods answered but you got mine. If you definately want the others vote, write them. And I was creating a minotaur gladiator (someone has to play such a beast in an arena!) and look what he gets: natural weapon, and this is specifically mentioned in the entry. But please, let us settle this. @Rosi: Round 5 now. |
| Jindl03-01-04, 04:48 PM | Originally posted by MotherBast @Cat, yes, I started a Druid, and specificly to use this Combo. I didn't know Jindl was going to try it with the Monk's belt when I started Dra'kel. Personaly, I think the monk's belt method is inferior, because in core only, there is no way to keep the belt from melding into the new form. But, I don't support this combo because I play a druid. I play a druid because I already knew about this combo. Like I said, it ain't new. Its been around since way before 3.5, and since no one else has used it yet, or had when I started Dra'kel, I figgured I'd give it a go. I never tried to hide what Dra'kel was going to do though. When I created him, I anounced on this thread that he was going to be a direct copy of the Monk/Druid from the old Min/Max board FAQ, so anyone could have gone there and seen exactly how Dra'kel was going to develop. Fact is, acording to the guys who get paid to make these decisions, the combo is legal. Jindl was only the first person to exploit it, and that only because Dra'kel isen't high enough level to wild shape yet or I would have been the one to do it. To be honest, concedering this is the CO thread, I'm supprised that more people didn't already know about this combo. Its not a well keept secret or anything. Indeed it is not a new idea or new combo. I first saw something about it on Yekoj's Druids Handbook about 6 months ago. And while using the belt may be slightly inferior (due to it taking up a slot that could be a belt of giants str or something) at the same time, I didn't have to give up a caster level or a wildshape level. MotherBast, you mention that you do not think a bear could wear a belt. I'm not sure why you think this, but then I'm not sure why Mo thinks that an eagle doesn't have a neck (to wear a necklace). I'll pull up some encyclopedia photos for you guys, demonstrating both that an eagle has a neck (and can wear a necklace) and that a bear could have a belt tied around its waist (heh, it may be a little tight, but he could do it.) -Jindl |
| Rosella03-01-04, 04:49 PM | Round 5? I'm surprised he lasted that long!! Ilene should be able to pin an arrow in Donkey's eyes each within the first round! Don't forget that deliberately delaying tactics can be punished by the moderator!! (He should atleast dare to look at Ilene, like most real men!) |
| Caterane03-01-04, 04:55 PM | Originally posted by Jindl: I'll pull up some encyclopedia photos for you guys, demonstrating both that an eagle has a neck (and can wear a necklace) and that a bear could have a belt tied around its waist (heh, it may be a little tight, but he could do it.) Here`s the proof: http://www.extremis.net/~jd/pics/albums/NurseryMurals/baloo.sized.jpg - Jindl |
| Caterane03-01-04, 05:02 PM | Ilene should be able to pin an arrow in Donkey's eyes each within the first round! ahem, that`s not quite right. Let`s forget about the tower shield for a second. Here`s an excerpt from one of your shots: [Ilene: Longbow (16+12-2(rapid)-2(distance)-2(ride)) = 22 vs Ac23, fails] A rolled 17 will hit though.... |
| Arstimis03-01-04, 05:05 PM | Here`s the proof: Hahahaha Cat, i needed that good laugh after just getting out of school. Thank you |
| sshuit03-01-04, 05:09 PM | @all And you can tell that he's getting Wis to AC cuz he's smiling so much ! :D |
| MotherBast03-01-04, 05:13 PM | Jindl, if you tied the belt to the bear's waist, it might work, but I have to ask, what stops whatever you used to tie it from melding when you wildshape? |
| Druid Roxors03-01-04, 05:15 PM | Originally posted by Arstimis Cat...there you go again ignoring facts The rules that druid quoted specifially state that it can complete verbal components for spells. And the ability to read should be no arguement, you keep your intel. Baloo was a very intelligent bear :D Oh, and how come when I argue you call it ranting, but when you do it, it's not? @ Cat: Yes, thank you for ignoring the detailed quotes and information and ranting about something you "Just think is not right". We do not care (or at least I) what you think is right or not, we care about what the rules say, specially within the optimization board. Thanks Arstimis, you got that first. |
| Druid Roxors03-01-04, 05:23 PM | Oh, and this is a real bear: http://www.bear.org/images/GB_PhotoGallery2_09.jpg |
| Caterane03-01-04, 05:29 PM | at least you didn`t use Paint shop Pro to paint him a scroll to the claw :) |
| Rosella03-01-04, 05:50 PM | -2 ride? hmm, where does one get that for? (I'm only aware of -4 for double move and -8 for running) Still learning I guess :) |
| Druid Roxors03-01-04, 05:51 PM | Originally posted by Caterane at least you didn`t use Paint shop Pro to paint him a scroll to the claw :) Alright, maybe this will clear things out. Bears have relatively flat feet (paws) with five toes, except the giant panda, which has six. Hind paws are larger than forepaws and resemble the feet of humans, except the "big toe" is located on the outside of the paw. Bears are renowned for their forepaw dexterity; they can pick pine nuts from cones, unscrew jar lids, and delicately manipulate other small objects. "The grizzly, though apparently awkward and lumbering, is really one of the most agile of beasts," noted Enos Mills in The Spell of the Rockies. "I constantly marvel at . . . [the] bear's lightness of touch, or the deftness of movement of his fore paws." Claws are curved, longer on the hind paws than the forepaws, and unlike a cat's, non-retractable More info Here (http://www.bowhunting.net/bearhunting.net/bear2.html#paws) |
| SnarkHunter03-01-04, 06:00 PM | Here's my fight (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2720166#post2720166), I hope everyone likes it despite my incredible prejeduce. ;). |
| Caterane03-01-04, 06:16 PM | And here`s mine A night at McCool's ...eh McPhersons (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2720354#post2720354) |
| Jindl03-01-04, 06:33 PM | Originally posted by SnarkHunter Here's my fight (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2720166#post2720166), I hope everyone likes it despite my incredible prejeduce. ;). Eh, Snarky - You had Peter converting 2nd level spells into cure SERIOUS wounds (which is 3rd level)? |
| Hatzinger03-01-04, 07:50 PM | Hey, market, i like your writing style. (nearly wet my panties when i read the scrapper-teasing part :D ) I have only two points of critique: - I was a bit confused at some points in the story because i didn´t know what the characters were drinking/casting/doing. Had to scroll down and read the tactics sometimes and take a guess... - Hide from animals works as long as i don´t attack the animal. the human has nothing to do at all with the spell, being neither the caster nor the target. Apart from that: cool story! Refreshes my belief that pure ranger-firepower is still better than the flexibility of the druids. :ayyyy!: :lucifer: :ayyyy!: |
| ^Rayne^03-01-04, 08:00 PM | Lance vs. Angosh is posted. Sorry there isn't more flavor text but at 30+ rounds I wasn't ready to go back and invest anymore time in spicing it up. Hopefully there is enough there to make it somewhat readable. Rayne |
| Rosella03-01-04, 08:01 PM | Thx Cat! Although it again was closer than i'd like, I can live with the general way things were handled! I need to do something about my reputation around here though, the last two fights were all about hysterical girls all around... And NO, I'm not going to copy'n paste Herrix 2 :nonono: A few (only one actually) things that I'd like to note, maybe I have a point somewhere (normally I don't, but ya never know): The first round, shouldn't the ride penalty have been nonexistant? I believe that a single move is enough for Ilene to have a clear shot and still stay out of charge reach. Offcourse I might be wrong there, but I think that there wouldn't have been a penalty there. (I still have to work on these penalties, -12 on attack isn't something to giggle about) (A 2nd item just came up) Wouldn't the last round have donkey with AC 23 still? As it was switched on during his initiative I'd think that he'd keep the AC bonus till it was his initiative again when it runs out in that round. It's a minor thing, but if he'd hit right after that... oh, and thx for not casting shield, I'm always so focused on defense that I forgot how bad his attack bonus actually was. |
| Alterlat03-01-04, 08:07 PM | @ ^Rayne^ Re the Lance vs. Angosh fight, doesn't the high ground bonus only apply to melee attacks? |
| Market_Share03-01-04, 08:09 PM | Done and posted. @Oetzi: actually it's as soon as you make any attack the HfA wears off. Glad you enjoyed the fight. @druids/monks/monk's belt: druid/monks still lose their su abilities while wildshapped. Melding into the form, in no way strips you of the armor. It just "melds" into the form. You are still wearing it. monk's belt doesn't give wis ac. That would be just broken, and if it did, it would say. It doesn't say...and it's quite clear what it does give. Just my opinion though, i usually don't debate anything on these boards because of the cheese-nature and loop-holing of min/max'ers without regard for spirit. I'm a spirit player. hehe Meaning i drink a lot of spirits while i play. lol. SPIKE |
| ^Rayne^03-01-04, 08:25 PM | Alterlat, I checked this before I ran the fight but after seeing your post I went back to check again! UGGGGHHHHHH!!! This fight is going to be the death of me yet! All right I'm going to have to go back in and do a lot of tweaking because I am fairly certain there were a couple attack that hit but shouldn't since this isn't the case. Darn it! Alright sorry players but I'm going to have to fix this. |
| ^Rayne^03-01-04, 08:25 PM | Double Post |
| kattattack2203-01-04, 08:25 PM | Originally posted by Market_Share I'm a spirit player. hehe Meaning i drink a lot of spirits while i play. lol. Hehehe, I love spirited players. They come up with great ideas like the spell Phantasmal BJ. |
| Arstimis03-01-04, 08:43 PM | 3.5 SRD Belt, Monk’s: This simple rope belt, when wrapped around a character’s waist, confers great ability in unarmed combat. The wearer’s AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher. If donned by a character with the Stunning Fist feat, the belt lets her make one additional stunning attack per day. If the character is not a monk, she gains the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th-level monk. This AC bonus functions just like the monk’s AC bonus. Now lets look at what the monks AC Bonus actually is 3.5 SRD AC Bonus (Ex): When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC at 5th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every five monk levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th level). Seems pretty clear to me. The price also seems just right, for those who dont think it is: +1 AC costs 1,000, then the only other benifit is 1d5 more damage (medium humaniod is 1d3), you still dont gain the monks unarmed abilities, just the damage. It doesnt even give you the unarmed attack feat. that extra damage is hardly worth 12,000, as more damage can be added to a sword for quite a bit less. just my view, and oh Cat, no i dont play a druid |
| SnarkHunter03-01-04, 08:54 PM | Holy Cats we have our own board now! I noticed when I tried to find the fight... :(. |
| Arstimis03-01-04, 08:57 PM | Originally posted by SnarkHunter Holy Cats we have our own board now! I noticed when I tried to find the fight... :(. Oh wow...its all.....blue Heh, i had the same problem |
| xeno_eleusis03-01-04, 09:04 PM | While reading past fights, I've noticed that some moderaters allow summon spells to cast instantly, while others have a duration of 1 round. My understanding is that if a spell caster starts to summon a creature in round 3, he will have to consentrate for 1 round, and then on his initiative in round 4 the spell will activate instantly and the summoned creature can move and attack on round 4, and so can the summoner. As opposed to the caster summoning a creature on round 3, that creature appears and attacks on round 3, then on round 4 the creature attacks again and the summoner can cast another summon spell, or move and attack, etc... |
| ^Rayne^03-01-04, 09:04 PM | Okay the fight is fixed! Same end result but more rounds to get there. I also found as I made the edits that everything was moved to a new location. Surprised but happy to see the change. ;) |
| Druid Roxors03-01-04, 09:07 PM | Oooo!! How cool!! I like blue |
| SnarkHunter03-01-04, 09:33 PM | @Xeno: Its a fairly common mistake but summoning times should be 1 full round as you said originially All my characters have been transfered over and I've marked Donkey and Bilo ready for this week. btw. If anyone has comments on the possibility of including 3.5 psionics when they become available please check out this thread here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=192452) where we can discuss it without going into general discussion :). |
| Rosella03-01-04, 09:45 PM | Nice move! Let's just hope that everyone can still find their way here... Advantage: The old links still work (my favorites are still linked correctly etc.) :ayyyy!: Disadvantage: Pictures don't work!! :censored: |
| Druid Roxors03-01-04, 10:19 PM | Gladiator Transfered and ready for 03/03/04 Corinthus Avius (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&perpage=1&postid=2722346#post2722346) |
| kattattack2203-01-04, 11:23 PM | This is cool. Blue is much better than red. I am curious. Why the move from the character optimization board? |
| MotherBast03-01-04, 11:24 PM | All my gladiators moved. I love the new board. |
| Druid Roxors03-01-04, 11:25 PM | Originally posted by kattattack22 This is cool. I blue is much better than red. I am curious. Why the move from the character optimization board? That way we can pop up many discussion topics in different threads. Oh and feel special, because we have our own forum! Yes, blue is the best color! |
| MotherBast03-01-04, 11:42 PM | Hey CAT, a few comments about the Candy fight. On the first round after exiting the Rope Trick, Jagath pinpoints Candy by the sound of her singing. You forget that even though he saved vs. the Ventro effect, the sound of Candy's voice still comes from the ventro, so he would have pinpointed it instead of Candy. It didn't really effect the fight that much though. I had actually ment for the Greater Invis to be used if the Rope Trick didnt' succeed, but I realize my tactics didn't reflect that. I should have cast a normal invis in the Rope Trick. My error on that one. I wrote them in a hurry. |
| cellardweller03-02-04, 12:34 AM | Smushy is back in action and challenges Grimlock. I am good to start modding again this week, but I am sticking to one character so assign me fights only if no-one else is hunting credits. |
| ^Rayne^03-02-04, 01:25 AM | I would like to move Vryk to the gladiator's page over here now so I can make the final changes to him, but he is still listed as being held. That fight is over and done now so can the hold be taken off? I would like to copy and paste my PC to the new location properly, but I don't want to break the rules doing it. |
| xeno_eleusis03-02-04, 02:15 AM | Gladiator Transfered and ready for 03/03/04 Boafer Stonewill (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=190985&perpage=1&pagenumber=30) |
| Arstimis03-02-04, 02:25 AM | Kiowen has been transfered, but still awaiting this weeks fight...stupid annoying pixie Laucian will be transfered in the morning |
| ^Rayne^03-02-04, 02:43 AM | What happened to Tellish of Ket? I saw all of his PC's have been removed and he is now listed as an inactive DM? Not to mention he hasn't posted recently... Has he left the arena gang? Just curious because he was the first player to welcome my kobolds and was always there to offer sound advice when I needed it... Anyone know if he is gone temporarily or if he is coming back? |
| ^Rayne^03-02-04, 03:43 AM | Question, does the AC bonus granted by Bracers of Armor stack with the spell Mage Armor or are they the same bonus (thus don't stack)? |
| cellardweller03-02-04, 04:20 AM | Originally posted by ^Rayne^ Question, does the AC bonus granted by Bracers of Armor stack with the spell Mage Armor or are they the same bonus (thus don't stack)? They both provide armour bonuses to AC and therefore don't stack. |
| ^Rayne^03-02-04, 04:21 AM | ^That's what I thought, thanks for the speedy reply! ;) |
| Moherajikuyx03-02-04, 06:16 AM | One of the main reasons I worked hard to have this board is to have the chance of discussing... You know... Like they do on boards: a thread for any argument :) I'm trying to have this thread closed, for elephantiac management reasons. See you on the board guys! ;) - Moherajikuyx Edit: I created this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=192049) thread to comment about the new board. |
| Pittbull03-02-04, 06:41 AM | Congratulations, cellardweller! circumstances have been quite bad for Angosh. in future I won't visit You without a protection from arrows. @Rayne, Nice mod. |
| Moherajikuyx03-02-04, 09:42 AM | Cool! I can open and close the threads in this board. OK I'm closing this thread. Please people, do a thread for each topic. I suggest "bears & armor" and "monks & INA" :rolleyes: for example. Now closing this thread, which will stay here forever as history. It also contains some useful posts, which are linked from the rules thread. CU on our board! :D |