ventriloquism [Archive] - Wizards Community

ventriloquism [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Tellish_of_Ket
03-15-04, 06:02 PM I am cut/pasting this conversation that i had a LONG time ago with some ppl about ventrilo. Right from the first time i saw Bilo use it at level 1, i knew i...WOW this is wrong. But i was new then and didn't say much. As time went on, that's how all the senior mods ran it and who was i to conradict them right?

I just made sure i never used it myself...until much later that is. I fell for the temptation of using a broken rules application as well. Sad, sad, sad. But it really has to end. That's been going on for far too long. Please read the now "ancient" conversations and understand why ventrilo does not satisfy the requirements for a verbal spell component.

-ToK

Ventriloquism:
Illusion (Figment)
Components: V,F
"You can make your voice (or any sound that you can
normally make vocally) seem to issue from someplace
else... anyone who hears the sound and rolls a
successful save recognizes it as illusory (but still
hears it)".

Figments create a perceived effect. In this case, an
auditory figment at a particular location. It does
not cancel out the verbal component that can be heard
coming from the caster's location, or the visible
focus: "A parchment rolled up into a small cone".

A successful save only lets you know that what you
here from the location of the figment is a figment.
Separately, a successful Spellcraft roll will tell
you that the caster is casting ventriloquism. A
character who sees the focus and knows that it is
used for ventriloquism has grounds for disbelieving
the illusion.

THe save is not for determining were the voice
comes from, or to avoid hearing what it says, but
for knowing that it is magic that makes it seem to
come from where it does (thus spoiling any
distraction it is meant to cause, and so you don't
fall for the ruse that someone is there). The
intended effects, other than the sound and any
words spoken, are spoiled vs the one who saves,
but it does not pinpoint the caster - he has to be
seen or heard directly- and he will be heard if he
is close and is not casting a silenced spell (and
the spell description does not require him to
speak out loud the words of the figment - this is
not real-world ventriloquism, but a magical effect
that creates the sound).

Tom Bollis
________________________________________ ____

> Thx for the reply...but i guess i really meant that if the caster
> was invisible and nearby? I'm assuming the "actual" caster would
> not be heard casting other spells for the purpose of pin-pointing
> correct? A listener would only be able to pin-point the
> ventriloquism and/or spellcraft what is being cast, correct?

"A verbal component is a a spoken incantation. To provide a verbal
component, you must be able to speak in a strong voice...", so
anyone who could here the caster speak could hear the verbal
combonent (but need a Spellcraft check to recognize what spell was
being cast). A Listen check (DC 0 for someone talking, with
modifiers +5 through a door, +15 through a stone wall, +1 per 10'
of distance, +5 for listener distracted, etc. gives the general
location of the caster. If the caster is invisible, a +20 is added
in order for the listener to pinpoint the exact square the caster
is in. A similar Listen check, based on the location of the
apparent source of the ventriloquism and whether there is
something visible there that the sound seems to come from, should
always be required for someone to hear and locate the target
source for the ventriloquism sound (the phantasm can't fool
someone who can't hear it or locate it (assuming location is
desired)).

> If he made his save, then it would make no difference as to pin-
> pointing the ventrilo-voice because he/she knows it's illusory and
> can't hear the actual caster as his voice is now emanating from the
> ventrilo.

Not exactly. The words said via ventriloquism come from the
desired location whether or not the save is made, only the
verbal component of the spell comes from the caster's location.
The save only lets the listener know that the voice he hears is
a result of magic - he still hears it from the same apparent
location.

> If said caster was invisible, silenced, casting via the silence meta-
> magic feat or rod, i suspect he'd be VERY tough to find.

True. The listener who saved would no someone was trying to
trick him, but not from where.

> Tellish

Tom Bollis

>
> Thx for the reply...but i guess i really meant that if the caster
> was invisible and nearby? I'm assuming the "actual" caster would
> not be heard casting other spells for the purpose of pin-pointing
> correct? A listener would only be able to pin-point the
> ventriloquism and/or spellcraft what is being cast, correct?

That is not clear. Ventriloquism does not move the caster's voice as
such. It lets the caster say things in another location with a free
action during its duration. It's a figmnent...it just makes nose,
much like a Magic Mouth. I think.

New spells would come from where the caster is. And when casting
ventriloquism there would be arcane chanting in one place (where the
caster is) and the ventriloquism sounds in the other place.

I saw nothing to indicate you could use Ventriloquism to satisfy the
verbal component of a spell. For example if the Ventriloquism spot
was out of a Silence field and the caster was in it, I don't believe
it would allow him to cast spells with a verbal component.

>
> If he made his save, then it would make no difference as to pin-
> pointing the ventrilo-voice because he/she knows it's illusory and
> can't hear the actual caster as his voice is now emanating from the
> ventrilo.

Yeah. The main advantage of making your save is you don't look for
someone "invisible" at the spot, and if he put it on a statue,
monster or possible friendly person's mouth, you don't assume those
insults came from there and go charge it.
>
> If said caster was invisible, silenced, casting via the silence
meta-
> magic feat or rod, i suspect he'd be VERY tough to find.
>

Yeah. The Ventriloquism would give no clues, that is for sure. I
dunno what Detect Magic would show, probably just the spell at the
new location (that's what "range" means after all, there isn't
usually a link to the caster on a ranged spell, except for things
like rays)
MotherBast
03-15-04, 06:11 PM I can see the logic in this. I have only ran ventro the way we have been because that is how I saw it being done in the arena and thought that was how it was supposed to work. I guess I'm on the fence here. Whatever the rest of the elders think, I'll be satisfied either way.
Magagumo
03-15-04, 08:03 PM As Bruno was also a user of this trick, I must admit my fault in perpetrating the "lie" so to speak. I think Ventro just acts like an audtiory "image" providing the opponnt two different ideas of where the caster is. Of course, if he sees the caster, then he can put 2+2 to gether, but if one is using this in conjuction with Silent Image :).

Project Image can speak for you, as I have read it, so the 7th level spell manages to allow you to stay hidden and quiet, big surprise ;)
Druid Roxors
03-15-04, 08:18 PM In my opinion, that IS possible. Nevertheless, It should be outrulled by the arena elders, this would make feat "silence spell" almost useless.
Jindl
03-16-04, 11:37 AM Ventriloquism creates the illusion that your voice is over there. Those that fail their save, only hear the illusionary voice. Those that make their save, hear both the illusionary voice (which they know is false) and the real voice (which they know is real).

Of course, factors such as sight, listen checks that hear your movement (walking, etc.), scent, origination of spell effects / weapons, spellcraft identifying the ventriloquism spell as it is being cast, etc. can grant bonuses to the save or make the save automatic.

But, if your opponent passes the save vs. ventriloquism, they can hear your real voice.

Note: As I said above, a good listen check could hear your footsteps / armor creaking / robes rustling / etc. and nullify your ventriloquism (because they would know its not your real voice coming from a different direction than your footsteps / armor creaking / robes rustling / etc.) Ventriloquism does not silence your movements, it only makes your voice appear to be elsewhere.

-Jindl
cellardweller
03-16-04, 06:35 PM Originally posted by Jindl
Of course, factors such as sight, listen checks that hear your movement (walking, etc.), scent, origination of spell effects / weapons, spellcraft identifying the ventriloquism spell as it is being cast, etc. can grant bonuses to the save or make the save automatic.
I remember this being discussed a few weeks ago, and the decision was made that spellcraft cannot grant automatic saves against illusions.
Jindl
03-16-04, 11:17 PM Originally posted by cellardweller
I remember this being discussed a few weeks ago, and the decision was made that spellcraft cannot grant automatic saves against illusions.

Yes, but it can and should grant a bonus to the save.

-Jindl
Tellish_of_Ket
03-16-04, 11:50 PM the fact that it is illusionary and a figment means it cannot qualify for the Verbal spell component part of a spell.

If the player fails their save, they end up hearing both voices and obviously must determine which is the real one and which is the actual caster.

If player makes their save, there is no doubt which voice is providing the spell component and which is a figment.

If you are grappled and "silenced" by the grappler, ventrilo doesn't give you an advantage in casting a verbal spell.

-ToK
Caterane
03-20-04, 09:22 AM Ventriloquism does NOT mute your voice. Easy reasoning:

Ventriloquism:
You can make your voice (or any sound that you can normally make vocally) seem to issue from someplace else. With respect to such voices and sounds, anyone who hears the sound and rolls a successful save recognizes it as illusory (but still hears it).

Granted, the "from someplace else" is dubious but if it would mute your own voice then it would still be muted if the creature makes the save because nothing in the description says that it makes your own voice heard again if it saves. He would still hear the illusionary sound only (which he then recognizes as an illusion but who cares).

And surely you cannot use a first level spell to get the silent spell feat applied to all your spells without increasing the spell level LOL who`s theory was that? Tell me one reason why then someone would take still spell as a feat???
sshuit
03-20-04, 09:36 AM +2 circumstance bonus perhaps?

I mean you know that SOMETHING isn't real, but is it the creature standing next to you or the ball of fire flying towards you or the pit that is being covered up with an illusion under your feet. You know that the other spellcaster is making something illusuory happen but you can't know for certain what.

Originally posted by Jindl
Yes, but it can and should grant a bonus to the save.

-Jindl
sshuit
03-20-04, 09:38 AM I've always interpreted Ventriloquism as making your voice sound like its coming from somewhere else and NOT from where it actually is.

On the flip side, I also play it so that if you are silenced, you can no longer make any voice to project.

So it does not counter silence spells.

Originally posted by Caterane
Ventriloquism does NOT mute your voice. Easy reasoning:

Granted, the "from someplace else" is dubious but if it would mute your own voice then it would still be muted if the creature makes the save because nothing in the description says that it makes your own voice heard again if it saves. He would still hear the illusionary sound only (which he then recognizes as an illusion but who cares).

And surely you cannot use a first level spell to get the silent spell feat applied to all your spells without increasing the spell level LOL who`s theory was that? Tell me one reason why then someone would take still spell as a feat???

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tellish_of_Ket 03-15-04, 06:02 PM	I am cut/pasting this conversation that i had a LONG time ago with some ppl about ventrilo. Right from the first time i saw Bilo use it at level 1, i knew i...WOW this is wrong. But i was new then and didn't say much. As time went on, that's how all the senior mods ran it and who was i to conradict them right? I just made sure i never used it myself...until much later that is. I fell for the temptation of using a broken rules application as well. Sad, sad, sad. But it really has to end. That's been going on for far too long. Please read the now "ancient" conversations and understand why ventrilo does not satisfy the requirements for a verbal spell component. -ToK Ventriloquism: Illusion (Figment) Components: V,F "You can make your voice (or any sound that you can normally make vocally) seem to issue from someplace else... anyone who hears the sound and rolls a successful save recognizes it as illusory (but still hears it)". Figments create a perceived effect. In this case, an auditory figment at a particular location. It does not cancel out the verbal component that can be heard coming from the caster's location, or the visible focus: "A parchment rolled up into a small cone". A successful save only lets you know that what you here from the location of the figment is a figment. Separately, a successful Spellcraft roll will tell you that the caster is casting ventriloquism. A character who sees the focus and knows that it is used for ventriloquism has grounds for disbelieving the illusion. THe save is not for determining were the voice comes from, or to avoid hearing what it says, but for knowing that it is magic that makes it seem to come from where it does (thus spoiling any distraction it is meant to cause, and so you don't fall for the ruse that someone is there). The intended effects, other than the sound and any words spoken, are spoiled vs the one who saves, but it does not pinpoint the caster - he has to be seen or heard directly- and he will be heard if he is close and is not casting a silenced spell (and the spell description does not require him to speak out loud the words of the figment - this is not real-world ventriloquism, but a magical effect that creates the sound). Tom Bollis ________________________________________ ____ > Thx for the reply...but i guess i really meant that if the caster > was invisible and nearby? I'm assuming the "actual" caster would > not be heard casting other spells for the purpose of pin-pointing > correct? A listener would only be able to pin-point the > ventriloquism and/or spellcraft what is being cast, correct? "A verbal component is a a spoken incantation. To provide a verbal component, you must be able to speak in a strong voice...", so anyone who could here the caster speak could hear the verbal combonent (but need a Spellcraft check to recognize what spell was being cast). A Listen check (DC 0 for someone talking, with modifiers +5 through a door, +15 through a stone wall, +1 per 10' of distance, +5 for listener distracted, etc. gives the general location of the caster. If the caster is invisible, a +20 is added in order for the listener to pinpoint the exact square the caster is in. A similar Listen check, based on the location of the apparent source of the ventriloquism and whether there is something visible there that the sound seems to come from, should always be required for someone to hear and locate the target source for the ventriloquism sound (the phantasm can't fool someone who can't hear it or locate it (assuming location is desired)). > If he made his save, then it would make no difference as to pin- > pointing the ventrilo-voice because he/she knows it's illusory and > can't hear the actual caster as his voice is now emanating from the > ventrilo. Not exactly. The words said via ventriloquism come from the desired location whether or not the save is made, only the verbal component of the spell comes from the caster's location. The save only lets the listener know that the voice he hears is a result of magic - he still hears it from the same apparent location. > If said caster was invisible, silenced, casting via the silence meta- > magic feat or rod, i suspect he'd be VERY tough to find. True. The listener who saved would no someone was trying to trick him, but not from where. > Tellish Tom Bollis > > Thx for the reply...but i guess i really meant that if the caster > was invisible and nearby? I'm assuming the "actual" caster would > not be heard casting other spells for the purpose of pin-pointing > correct? A listener would only be able to pin-point the > ventriloquism and/or spellcraft what is being cast, correct? That is not clear. Ventriloquism does not move the caster's voice as such. It lets the caster say things in another location with a free action during its duration. It's a figmnent...it just makes nose, much like a Magic Mouth. I think. New spells would come from where the caster is. And when casting ventriloquism there would be arcane chanting in one place (where the caster is) and the ventriloquism sounds in the other place. I saw nothing to indicate you could use Ventriloquism to satisfy the verbal component of a spell. For example if the Ventriloquism spot was out of a Silence field and the caster was in it, I don't believe it would allow him to cast spells with a verbal component. > > If he made his save, then it would make no difference as to pin- > pointing the ventrilo-voice because he/she knows it's illusory and > can't hear the actual caster as his voice is now emanating from the > ventrilo. Yeah. The main advantage of making your save is you don't look for someone "invisible" at the spot, and if he put it on a statue, monster or possible friendly person's mouth, you don't assume those insults came from there and go charge it. > > If said caster was invisible, silenced, casting via the silence meta- > magic feat or rod, i suspect he'd be VERY tough to find. > Yeah. The Ventriloquism would give no clues, that is for sure. I dunno what Detect Magic would show, probably just the spell at the new location (that's what "range" means after all, there isn't usually a link to the caster on a ranged spell, except for things like rays)
MotherBast 03-15-04, 06:11 PM	I can see the logic in this. I have only ran ventro the way we have been because that is how I saw it being done in the arena and thought that was how it was supposed to work. I guess I'm on the fence here. Whatever the rest of the elders think, I'll be satisfied either way.
Magagumo 03-15-04, 08:03 PM	As Bruno was also a user of this trick, I must admit my fault in perpetrating the "lie" so to speak. I think Ventro just acts like an audtiory "image" providing the opponnt two different ideas of where the caster is. Of course, if he sees the caster, then he can put 2+2 to gether, but if one is using this in conjuction with Silent Image :). Project Image can speak for you, as I have read it, so the 7th level spell manages to allow you to stay hidden and quiet, big surprise ;)
Druid Roxors 03-15-04, 08:18 PM	In my opinion, that IS possible. Nevertheless, It should be outrulled by the arena elders, this would make feat "silence spell" almost useless.
Jindl 03-16-04, 11:37 AM	Ventriloquism creates the illusion that your voice is over there. Those that fail their save, only hear the illusionary voice. Those that make their save, hear both the illusionary voice (which they know is false) and the real voice (which they know is real). Of course, factors such as sight, listen checks that hear your movement (walking, etc.), scent, origination of spell effects / weapons, spellcraft identifying the ventriloquism spell as it is being cast, etc. can grant bonuses to the save or make the save automatic. But, if your opponent passes the save vs. ventriloquism, they can hear your real voice. Note: As I said above, a good listen check could hear your footsteps / armor creaking / robes rustling / etc. and nullify your ventriloquism (because they would know its not your real voice coming from a different direction than your footsteps / armor creaking / robes rustling / etc.) Ventriloquism does not silence your movements, it only makes your voice appear to be elsewhere. -Jindl
cellardweller 03-16-04, 06:35 PM	Originally posted by Jindl Of course, factors such as sight, listen checks that hear your movement (walking, etc.), scent, origination of spell effects / weapons, spellcraft identifying the ventriloquism spell as it is being cast, etc. can grant bonuses to the save or make the save automatic. I remember this being discussed a few weeks ago, and the decision was made that spellcraft cannot grant automatic saves against illusions.
Jindl 03-16-04, 11:17 PM	Originally posted by cellardweller I remember this being discussed a few weeks ago, and the decision was made that spellcraft cannot grant automatic saves against illusions. Yes, but it can and should grant a bonus to the save. -Jindl
Tellish_of_Ket 03-16-04, 11:50 PM	the fact that it is illusionary and a figment means it cannot qualify for the Verbal spell component part of a spell. If the player fails their save, they end up hearing both voices and obviously must determine which is the real one and which is the actual caster. If player makes their save, there is no doubt which voice is providing the spell component and which is a figment. If you are grappled and "silenced" by the grappler, ventrilo doesn't give you an advantage in casting a verbal spell. -ToK
Caterane 03-20-04, 09:22 AM	Ventriloquism does NOT mute your voice. Easy reasoning: Ventriloquism: You can make your voice (or any sound that you can normally make vocally) seem to issue from someplace else. With respect to such voices and sounds, anyone who hears the sound and rolls a successful save recognizes it as illusory (but still hears it). Granted, the "from someplace else" is dubious but if it would mute your own voice then it would still be muted if the creature makes the save because nothing in the description says that it makes your own voice heard again if it saves. He would still hear the illusionary sound only (which he then recognizes as an illusion but who cares). And surely you cannot use a first level spell to get the silent spell feat applied to all your spells without increasing the spell level LOL who`s theory was that? Tell me one reason why then someone would take still spell as a feat???
sshuit 03-20-04, 09:36 AM	+2 circumstance bonus perhaps? I mean you know that SOMETHING isn't real, but is it the creature standing next to you or the ball of fire flying towards you or the pit that is being covered up with an illusion under your feet. You know that the other spellcaster is making something illusuory happen but you can't know for certain what. Originally posted by Jindl Yes, but it can and should grant a bonus to the save. -Jindl
sshuit 03-20-04, 09:38 AM	I've always interpreted Ventriloquism as making your voice sound like its coming from somewhere else and NOT from where it actually is. On the flip side, I also play it so that if you are silenced, you can no longer make any voice to project. So it does not counter silence spells. Originally posted by Caterane Ventriloquism does NOT mute your voice. Easy reasoning: Granted, the "from someplace else" is dubious but if it would mute your own voice then it would still be muted if the creature makes the save because nothing in the description says that it makes your own voice heard again if it saves. He would still hear the illusionary sound only (which he then recognizes as an illusion but who cares). And surely you cannot use a first level spell to get the silent spell feat applied to all your spells without increasing the spell level LOL who`s theory was that? Tell me one reason why then someone would take still spell as a feat???