Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rosella 07-14-03, 02:32 PM	Ok, this is mostly in the past, but it may be possible that I still learn from this problem: There is an Half-Orc, with a Strength of 20, but a charisma of 3. How does one handle an intimidate check with this? My dm ruled that in the case of intimidate the negative charisma would be a bonus instead. This character used his intimidate to get through any situation that involved even "a little" politics and behaved totally a-social throughout his adventuring life. (not having bathed ever, being pretty dumb too and not reacting at all to any suggestions by the rest of the party) How should one handle this? and how does one answer for the penalty on intimidate that would be normal even though the guy easily can handle you with no problem at all? like, the guy has no influence at all but is totally muscular?
JeanMontsempeau 07-14-03, 03:56 PM	I've always felt that Intimidate is one of the only Skills that has been slightly mislabeled with Charisma, for while it is use of the force of your personality, there are always other ways to Intimidate, such as being insanely strong, or even intelligent, heck even wise, or dexterous, or healthy. Kinda like "Oh my gawd how in the world did he survive that blow, thats scary, can anything stop this guy?" for instance if your character has way high constitution or whatever. In 3e its always been a house rule that Intimidate's Key Ability is whatever one fits the individual characters style of intimidation. I dunno hopefully that helps.
Dougan Axehammer 07-14-03, 04:53 PM	I've either heard or read or both that 3.5 will handle this issue. How I don't remember though.
King of Diamonds 07-14-03, 05:35 PM	in all actuality fear and intimidation are realy not the same things. you can scare the (explitive deleted) out of someone and not get your way "Ill crush your bones and make a stew out of your entrails" or you could intimidate them "I hear you just got married to a beautifull woman... you say shes with child? Why I would hate to imagine somthing terrible hapening to her while you are so far away and unable to hear her cries" that is the diferance right there
JusticeZero 07-14-03, 07:26 PM	The charisma modifier is a penalty. The ogre is utterly unimpressive. His naked and unbountd rage makes children laugh and point. While he may be able to frighten people by threatening them, they will likely NEVER do what he WANTS them to do. "Surrender or I smash!" "Oh no! We must redouble our attempts to defeat him!" .. "Tell me where he's gone!" "Eee! I'll never tell! *flees and jumps off a bridge*"
BetterButterBuddha 07-14-03, 10:45 PM	In that situation, I'd rule that the CHA modifier is temporarily 0, but only if the intimidater gives a revealing show of his strength. Sure, alone he's about as scary as an abused puppy with leprosy, but anybody who can bend a steel pipe into a pretzel is one with a lot of force behind that menacing face.
trashdog 07-14-03, 11:07 PM	in MoW there are variant rules for intimidation. it says str modifier can be used instead of cha, or if this character's a barbarian, you could add a +4 to intimidate checks while raging.
Talmariel 07-14-03, 11:14 PM	You've got to remember what the Intimidate skill does. The purpose is to change behavior of some sort into a desired behavior through threat of something unpleasant. For the purposes of the Strength 20 half-orc, a Charisma of 3 says to me that he is lousy with words and probably has a consistently stupid look on his/her face. Basically, this character does not pay any attention to his/her posture, expression, and anything he/she says comes out a mess of stuttering or witless remarks. Let's take two situations into account. First, the half-orc, alone, trying to get information. As words fail him/her, and the target becomes increasingly confused as to what exactly the half-orc is trying to get out, the half-orc finally breaks down into mindless yelling, and perhaps a bit of beating. As far as the mechanics are concerned, this half-orc has probably failed their check miserably. Ah, but then the beating commences, and we have a new modifier. Most people will say anything to not be bludgeoned to death, which could easily afford a +5, +10, or even more of a circumstance bonus to this Intimidate check (or the DM may rule the check is entirely unnecessary because the target is going to say anything to make the hurting stop!). Here's another situation. Anyone familiar with L.A. Confidential? We have one character with a very high Charisma conducting the Intimidation, and the strong-arm but low-Charisma lackey standing silently beside him. At any point that the target says something displeasing, the strong-arm beats him ruthlessly until the high-Charisma leader orders him off. Now we've got the best of both worlds; the Intimidate check is high to begin with from the one doing the talking, and the strong-arm still gives the big circumstance bonus. That is how a proper Intimidate check through a high Strength score is done. Any DM that's good with the rules would drop a nice fat circumstance bonus on an angry half-orc with a Strength 20.
Fox Lee 07-15-03, 01:06 AM	A believe it's stated somewhere that if a characetr can make a sufficient display of strength (like roughing somebody up, or maybe telling a great war story, or the old "bending iron bar into pretzel" trick) might be allowed to use their STR modifier instead of their CHA modifier, for Intimidate checks. It seems to be a sensible rule, to me.
JusticeZero 07-15-03, 04:26 AM	A believe it's stated somewhere that if a characetr can make a sufficient display of strength (like roughing somebody up, or maybe telling a great war story, or the old "bending iron bar into pretzel" trick) might be allowed to use their STR modifier instead of their CHA modifier, for Intimidate checks. It seems to be a sensible rule, to me.It's not at all sensible to me, because it doesn't negate the fact that the one telling the story is as impressive as day old bagels and utterly clueless how to get the effect they actually -want-. Sure, it's not that hard to scare them. But can you accomplish anything from the fear? Nooo.. You are not impressive. You are unimpressive. You are unversed in reactions. You cannot sell water to a starving man, you cannot frighten a small puppy into running away. Understand? Even if you are able to inspire fear - which almost anyone can do with a show of force of whatever sort is available - you cannot use that fear for any useful ends. Prisoners clam up, or lie, or blubber, but they don't tell you what you need to know. Enemies despair, but fail to retreat. And so on. Do Wizards get to use their Int bonus to intimidate if they cast spells? Can Rogues use their Dex bonus to intimidate by juggling daggers menacingly and recklessly? I think not. Why should we make an exception for you? The logic can extend to make stats completely useless for such situations, and that is the one stat that needs above all tio be paid attention to.
Rosella 07-15-03, 06:50 AM	I'm just wondering, how can the strongest man of the world look unimpressive? (and I don't agree with justice's opinion that one would rather jump off a bridge than tell what the interrogater wants to know just because he isn't "impressing".)
Fox Lee 07-15-03, 07:16 AM	Originally posted by JusticeZero It's not at all sensible to me, because it doesn't negate the fact that the one telling the story is as impressive as day old bagels and utterly clueless how to get the effect they actually -want-. Sure, it's not that hard to scare them. But can you accomplish anything from the fear? Nooo.. You are not impressive. You are unimpressive. You are unversed in reactions. You cannot sell water to a starving man, you cannot frighten a small puppy into running away. Understand? Frankly, you're taking that way too far. It doesn't take a high CHA to scare away a small puppy or sell water to a starving man (presuming he is also thirsting, at least). Taking the examples to such ridiculous degrees does nothing to demonstrate your point. And yes, I do believe that other circumstances might warrant using a different stat, and that this is acceptable; as I believe that certain other skill checks may occasionally be made using a stat other than the one initially deemed appropriate (particularly Craft and Profession, depending on what you're crafting or doing). If you don't, well, bully for you. It's not like that's going to change my mind.
Tzor 07-15-03, 08:55 AM	Originally posted by Rosella There is an Half-Orc, with a Strength of 20, but a charisma of 3. How does one handle an intimidate check with this? It's really easy. Intimidate is the art of getting someone to do a desired result. Your strength is obviously going to get them to do something, but unfortunately it is seldom desired. Half-Orc: "Excuse me but ..." Commoner: *FAINT* Half-Orc: "I'm looking for ..." Expert: *RUNS AWAY* Half-Orc: "Can you tell me where ..." Warrior: "Die foul demon!" *LOOKS DESPERATE* A failed intimidate does not mean you were not impressive, but that you impressed in the wrong manner. If I were to add strength to intimidate, I'd probably do it in the following manner. If you, or someone next to you clearly allied with you have a stength bonus, you can add that strength bonus to your intimidate check as a circumstance bonus, although that bonus cannot exceed your normal charisma modifier. In other words the half-orc stands next to a charismatic halflig. Halfling: "Excuse me sir, but if you don't tell us where the thieves' guild is, I'm afraid that my 'friend' is going to get really nasty and I really can't say what he might do when he goes into a frenzy ... only it's best not said in polite company if you know what I mean." Rogue: "Uh sure, it's right down the street, first door on your right."
JusticeZero 07-15-03, 09:01 AM	Because he has no leverage, he doesn't know how to work it. "Ug smash!" "I'll talk! I'll talk!" "GRAAR!" "Okay, I won't talk!" He'll have no idea when to push and when to lay off, and will spoil his own work. Not to mention that his only technique is to flex at randon times in hopes that the other person will care - at a 3, he's really too oblivious and insensitive to notice any of the cues. Anyways, even when he flexes and snarls, it has all the emotional impact of Ferris Beuller's teacher. Really, the prisoner should be able to intimidate YOU pretty effortlessly, your force of personality is that pathetic. That guy had a high Int, he should be able to make his Diplomacy checks on Int to teach, right? Sorry, no, you still suck.
inci 07-15-03, 01:00 PM	Originally posted by Tzor Half-Orc: "Excuse me but ..." Commoner: *FAINT* Half-Orc: "I'm looking for ..." Expert: *RUNS AWAY* Half-Orc: "Can you tell me where ..." Warrior: "Die foul demon!" *LOOKS DESPERATE* This looks more like 'diplomacy' or 'Gather Information' for me. Intimidating would be something like: Half-Orc grabs Commoner to get his attention:"Tell me that. NOW!" and it doesnt matter how rediculous he is, when someone twice as big and strong looks down on you - you definatly DONT start to laugh (as JusticeZero would do right before a serious beating) I agree that Charisma can make you good at Intimidating, but nothing beats the big bad muslce guy at this. It doesnt matter that he has no social graces, or a strong personality. He just uses his muscle and the ranks in Intimidate represent that he knows how. I'd either switch Cha with Str or go the way Talmariel proposed.
hiryuu 07-15-03, 01:20 PM	Originally posted by inci This looks more like 'diplomacy' or 'Gather Information' for me. Intimidating would be something like: Half-Orc grabs Commoner to get his attention:"Tell me that. NOW!" and it doesnt matter how rediculous he is, when someone twice as big and strong looks down on you - you definatly DONT start to laugh (as JusticeZero would do right before a serious beating) I agree that Charisma can make you good at Intimidating, but nothing beats the big bad muslce guy at this. It doesnt matter that he has no social graces, or a strong personality. He just uses his muscle and the ranks in Intimidate represent that he knows how. I'd either switch Cha with Str or go the way Talmariel proposed. No, you'd urinate in your pants and faint. Intimidating someone is a fine line in which you twist the words without pushing the victim too far. Push too far, and they'll clam up. Push not enough, and they won't say anything. It's the way you carry yourself. the way you voice your intentions. It doesn't have anything to do with how big or strong you are. It has everything to do with knowning just what to say.
Mister Mayhem 07-15-03, 01:53 PM	I think people confuse intimidation with threatening. No great dice roll is needed to threaten somebody. If you can obviously kick their butt, then unless they seriously want a beating, they will do as you ask unless there is a very good reason for them not to. And that is where the intimidation skill comes in. knowing how to threaten somebody, and with what. If they are more scared of what will happen if they do as you say than they are of being beaten/killed, then no amount of threatening them with a big gun or huge muscles is going to get them to follow your orders. The art of intimidation lies in persuading the victim that what will happen to them if they don't do as you say is worse than what will happen to them if they don't. Thats why its a charisma skill. EG - a criminal mastermind with a high intimidation skill uses it to make sure that all of his henchmen know full well that if they rat him out to anybody, not only will they die in a very painful manner, but so will their wives and children. The massive half-orc with the big axe captures one of the henchman, and tries to question him. But as long as all the half-orc can do is threaten death and wave his axe around, he isn't going to be more intimidating than the mastermind. Unless the half-orc or his friends can convince the victim that what they propose is even worse than what his boss would do, he isn't going to talk. Threatening isn't enough - the victim has to be convinced that you will commit these heinious acts whatever they may be. (Or they can try convince him in some way that they can protect his wife and children, but thats a different skill entirely.) So its not just about making a threat - its about making your threat worse than the alternative, *and* making your victim believe you can carry it out. *That's* why it is a charisma skill. ***** So, if your half orc in question is simply threatening somebody (give me the gold an I won't kill ya!) then the victim should act however their personality dictates. But if the half-orc is trying to cause something more long term (never tell da watch that I was here, or I'll kill ya) in which he won't be around to continuosly threaten the victim, then as soon as the half-orc has left and the victim feels he is safe, the victim may well rush off to the watch. Wheras a charismatic halfling who tells the victim "Well, you could tell the watch, but, well, how are your lovely children these days? Melissa and kaie, isn't it? Do they still play in the park every sunday afternoon? They still go for dancing lessons with master Quinn every thursday evening? It would be terrible if something were to happen to them - after all, young girls can be such a handfull to bring up, can't they?" - if the halfing is charismatic enough that the victim truly believes that his children will be in continuing danger after the halfing leaves, and that he can do nothing to protect them, then he is much, much more likely to keep his mouth shut, making the halfling far more intimidating than the half-orc.
JusticeZero 07-15-03, 02:48 PM	Originally posted by inci I agree that Charisma can make you good at Intimidating, but nothing beats the big bad muslce guy at this.The huge hulking brute looked down at him with a glazed, inattentive, slightly bored look on his face. he flaxed his muscles, looking ridiculous. In a whiny voice, he coughed "Tell us where the others went? Please?" The 4'6" girl next to him, clad in red silk, rolled her eyes. "Oh, please. Step out of my way. She stepped right in close, eyes aflame with a look of pure fury. "Look. Either you can tell us which way they went." She leaned in, grabbing the man's collar and pushing him back into the corner, choking off his breath uncomfortably and leaning in to stare into his eyes like indomitable steel daggers, holding up a finger. A tongue of reddish flame smouldered to life at the tip. "Or, I can start seeing what I have to do to get you to talk.." She pointed her hand downbetween the man's legs. A small whoosh of flame puffed to life, carrying the smell of singed cloth. "-PLEASE- say you won't talk.. I've got a lot of issues I need to work out.." Neither of these characters has the Intimidation skill. I've always found it puzzling how people are quick to try to handicap someone with an Int of 7 as a dolt, yet somehow think that they can have a free pass to do things that demand a forceful personality in spite of the utter absence of the attribute governing such. I don't think it reasonable for a character with Int 3 to be solving riddles, I don't think it reasonable for a person with a Dex of 3 to be juggling daggers, and as such, I think it's absurd for a person with Cha 3 to expect to be "imposing". They have a 3 Charisma. They're not "musclebound and impressive", they're big, not terribly imposing, and if anything, people assume their muscle is all fat. 'What're you gonna do, -bounce- me to death?' Someone with a 3 Cha is incapable of getting the effects they want from being noisy, even if they're built like a bodybuilder, they look like a deformed teddy bear and it's just not plausible that they could actually be an issue, even if they were able to communicate what they wanted adequately. If he wanted to be imposing and fearful, he would have avoided dumping his Charisma so low.
maddog60 07-15-03, 02:54 PM	Originally posted by Talmariel Here's another situation. Anyone familiar with L.A. Confidential? We have one character with a very high Charisma conducting the Intimidation, and the strong-arm but low-Charisma lackey standing silently beside him. At any point that the target says something displeasing, the strong-arm beats him ruthlessly until the high-Charisma leader orders him off. Now we've got the best of both worlds; the Intimidate check is high to begin with from the one doing the talking, and the strong-arm still gives the big circumstance bonus. That scene is definitely the epitome of using a strongman in intimidating situations. If you're imposing brute doesnt speak but uses feats of strength and lets a more eloquent character do the talking, his negative CHA shouldn't effect the intimidate. Panicked victim being beaten by brute force intimidater: "Make him stop!" Charismatic intimidater: "I don't know how," in a calm relaxed voice. :devil:
crucible 07-15-03, 05:21 PM	I thought I would chime in with my take on how different levels of Charisma may play out with Intimidation..... Hero STRENGTH: 20, CHARISMA: 3 -Hero grabs little pipsqueak mouthing off to him in the bar. "Umm, that was not...I mean you were uhh,....uhh, uhh, I'll break your neck!!!" he lets out a yell with spittle flying out of his mouth, his eyes bulging. He belches and farts, turns red and throws the mouthy guy on the floor. Everyone is laughing at him which makes him even angrier. The mouthy guy runs out of the bar and returns with the city guard to arrest the "brutish oaf" who attacked him without provocation. Hero STRENGTH: 20, CHARISMA: 12 -Hero grabs little pipsqueak mouthing off to him in the bar. "Don't ever speak to me again. I will break every bone in your body if you so much as whisper in my direction." He throws the mouthy guy on the floor. The mouthy guy runs out of the bar and considers getting the city guard, but decides it wouldn't be worth the hassle. Perhaps if the opportunity arises he will get his revenge with the help of some friends. Hero STRENGTH: 20, CHARISMA: 18 -Hero straightens the hat of the little pipsqueak mouthing off to him in the bar. "There. That's much better. I believe its very important to look your best at all times. Are these your good clothes? The craftsmanship is exquisite. Is it a special occasion? A funeral perhaps? A man could be buried in such finery." The hero grabs a copper piece from his pouch, bends and breaks it in half with little effort. He tosses it to the mouthy fellow. "A donation to the widow if it is indeed a funeral." The hero than puts his arm around the fellow and enthusiastically shuffles him to the entrance of the bar, the pipsqueak's feet not touching the ground. "You better be off before you spill something on your fine clothes. Blood is especially hard to get out and you know how easily an altercation in a place like this can occur." A big 'friendly' slap on the back sends the pipsqueak into the street where he trips and falls on his face. "Be wary, good fellow. You could get yourself killed being so careless." The mouthy guy gets up and runs away, embarrassed and frightened. He doesn't tell a soul about his humiliating experience and avoids the bar forever after. Just some thoughts Daryl
Fox Lee 07-15-03, 09:19 PM	Originally posted by JusticeZero The huge hulking brute looked down at him with a glazed, inattentive, slightly bored look on his face. he flaxed his muscles, looking ridiculous. In a whiny voice, he coughed "Tell us where the others went? Please?" You really are taking that too far. You make assumptions on things which are not determined by the CHA stat so you can support your point, and it makes you look a bit desperate. Obviously the example isn't going to work if you assume that the show of strength is pathetic - however, that's not determined by his CHA. As for assuming that he has a whiny voice - again, that is deternmined by the player, not his CHA stat (a player whose character has a poor CHA might represent that by giving him a weak voice, but that is purely up to the player). Lastly saying "Tell us where the others went? Please?" is not an example of low CHA - it's an example of stunningly low INT. It doesn't matter how forceful your personality may or may not be - you'd have to be a complete moron to try intimidating somebody with that.
JusticeZero 07-16-03, 03:15 AM	We're talking about a -3- Charisma. If you had a character in the party with a 3 Int, would you think it was normal for them to talk in long sentences with big words all the time and solve riddles? No! Most people, when faced with a 3 Int, figure the guy is TOO STUPID TO TALK. This guy is just as socially inept and personality impaired as the guy who can't say more than ten words in Common and responds to most questions with "Grok SMASH!" is educationally and intellectually challenged.
JusticeZero 07-16-03, 03:28 AM	Today, I was at a restauraunt, eating outside with a couple friends. This guy came through with a ladder and knocked some signs over. I wasn't paying attention to exactly what started it, as I was looking elsewhere until I heard "Dude, the guy is blind, he can't see what's going on, he just asked a question, okay?" This guy, holding a ladder that had to be at least twelve feet long in one hand, started fuming and yelling, then ripped off his shirt to reveal these huge bulging muscles, yelling at us to 'bring it on' and such while casually swinging said ladder in one hand. The guy clearly had Strength to spare. Nonetheless, among the people I was with, reactions ranged from watching the guy boredly, to breaking out into open snickering, to peering at him quizzically and going back to their dinner. Even though he was swinging a metal object around one-handed that he could likely have taken out half our table with in one casual swing, the guy was about as intimidating as a friend of mine's three year old daughter trying to demand cookies. That is to say, not at all. It didn't even occur to anyone that he could have done any damage until three minutes after he left. This is precisely what i'm talking about (and others) when we say that Strength is no substitute for Charisma in intimidation.
Mialaurient 07-16-03, 09:43 AM	I agree that it's up to the player to decide how his character plays his 3 in charisma, but he needs to realize that he has a 3 in charisma. If he choose to put the stat there, then he needs to respect what that means. This character does not know how to deal with social situations what so ever. Sure he could look pretty, and even have a nice voice, in that case though his body language is probably completely off, and he just doesn't know how to get the proper response from a person: be it picking up the hot bar maid, haggling for the best price for supplies, or intimidating someone. All these things take some finesse which he sure as heck doesn't have. In straightforward situations, I do agree there is some merit to brute strength. Any peasant or lowly person who has no vested interest in keeping the information, item, etc. to themselves could be convinced by brute strength. But he would also probably inform anyone he could tell about the big bully who threatened him thus giving the character and possibly the whole group a bad name. Also, I don't think a low charisma character would be able to get information from a stronger character like a seasoned warrior who would probably be used to such hot air, nor would it work very well on a person who is serving a master and faces some nasty consequences for failing him. In the end, though, obviously it's up to what you and your DM want to do. I personally like the fact that there are some measurable consequences for a low charisma. It was a wasted ability in 2E.
Luminosity 07-16-03, 01:09 PM	A Cha 3 character would begin to have problems telling himself from others and would likely have such a poor sense of self and lack of confidence that he wouldn't even attempt to intimidate anyone. And a Cha 3, Str 20 character looks goofy, not scary.
Sisyfos 07-16-03, 06:40 PM	Originally posted by Luminosity A Cha 3 character would begin to have problems telling himself from others and would likely have such a poor sense of self and lack of confidence that he wouldn't even attempt to intimidate anyone. And a Cha 3, Str 20 character looks goofy, not scary. There seems to be a common misconception in this thread: charisma is not same as brainpower. You can have a wizard with CHA 3, INT 25, WIS 22... and he would not be able to tell himself from others? Lack of confidence? There has been one good suggestion so far: person could use for his intimidate attribute what ever attribute that suits him the best. Negative charisma should not of course give bonuses to intimidate, but STR mod could easily be used instead of CHA. I can imagine a Fire giant with CHA 8 and STR 32 that would make me tell him what ever he wanted if he threatened me with a bit of violence. Wimps need charisma :behold: (and sorcerers).
Fox Lee 07-16-03, 09:29 PM	Originally posted by JusticeZero We're talking about a -3- Charisma. If you had a character in the party with a 3 Int, would you think it was normal for them to talk in long sentences with big words all the time and solve riddles? No! Most people, when faced with a 3 Int, figure the guy is TOO STUPID TO TALK. This guy is just as socially inept and personality impaired as the guy who can't say more than ten words in Common and responds to most questions with "Grok SMASH!" is educationally and intellectually challenged. Yes, this is true; however, the examples you gave were less indicative of a low CHA and more indicative of universally poor mental stats. This character could have a massive INT or WIS, but by your examples, you presumed that these stats were poor as well. Add to this, that the closest thing we have to an opposing roll for Intimidate checks is a Will Save (to avoid being afraid) or a Sense Motive check (to avoid being manipulated), and the idea that a small girl would be able to intimidate the character just because he has a low CHA is fairy unfounded. Besides, no matter how charismatic a threat of bodily harm may or may not be, only truly arrogant people are going to laugh it off as if the STR-20-whatever barbarian couldn't hurt them. The suggestion that they might wind up blubbering hopelessly or passing out from fear is a viable way to avoid having the check work favourably; however, your suggestions that little children and puppies would not even fear the man is ridiculous. Especially if the barbarian did break an arm or a leg - yeah, right, a kid is going to laugh at that. Uhuh.
Fox Lee 07-16-03, 09:35 PM	Originally posted by Mialaurient In straightforward situations, I do agree there is some merit to brute strength. Any peasant or lowly person who has no vested interest in keeping the information, item, etc. to themselves could be convinced by brute strength. But he would also probably inform anyone he could tell about the big bully who threatened him thus giving the character and possibly the whole group a bad name. Also, I don't think a low charisma character would be able to get information from a stronger character like a seasoned warrior who would probably be used to such hot air, nor would it work very well on a person who is serving a master and faces some nasty consequences for failing him. In the end, though, obviously it's up to what you and your DM want to do. I personally like the fact that there are some measurable consequences for a low charisma. It was a wasted ability in 2E. Indeed - and well said. However, that idea (that a low CHA character would be able to intimidate a simple person, but not a seasoned warrior) would not be represented by denying him the chance to make the check based on STR. It would be represented by applying a Circumstance penalty to the check, because of the guy he's dealing with. Just as a low STR, high CHA character would suffer a circumstance penalty when trying to intimidate, say, somebody who had just beaten them up.
Hope 07-17-03, 03:23 AM	The Intimidate skill isn't about *being* dangerous, it's about *looking* dangerous. To use an example I've used in one of the many other threads on this very topic, a forest fire is dangerous. It's scary. People run from them, often screaming in terror. Does a forest fire have the capacity to make Intimidate checks? No, it's not a creature. Just as there's a +5 to Bluff checks when telling the truth (I think), one could apply a circumstance bonus to Intimidate checks when it's physically obvious that the person performing the intimidation could break the subject in half. The circumstance bonus for "character could break subject in half" would be right there beside the bonuses for "character knows where subject's children go to school" and "character has incriminating documents bearing subject's signature". The actual check itself, however, should always be based on Charisma - it's about how the character projects the threat. Being massively strong provides the *basis* for the intimidation, it doesn't do it all by itself.
JusticeZero 07-17-03, 04:10 AM	Originally posted by Sisyfos There seems to be a common misconception in this thread: charisma is not same as brainpower. You can have a wizard with CHA 3, INT 25, WIS 22... and he would not be able to tell himself from others? Lack of confidence? Yes, that's what Charisma denotes, as evidenced by the fact that the effects of having one's Charisma drained to 0 are defined explicitly in the core rules as losing the ability to tell oneself from the rest of the world and thus losing all shred of confidence in oneself.There has been one good suggestion so far: person could use for his intimidate attribute what ever attribute that suits him the best. Negative charisma should not of course give bonuses to intimidate, but STR mod could easily be used instead of CHA. And wizards should be able to use their INT for everything! Sorry, no, try again. I described a real world case where someone threatened me with DIRECT BODILY HARM, who very visibly had strength to spare, who could very easily have put me in the hospital as the slightest whim, and I LAUGHED IT OFF because the guy's presentation was so pathetic! THIS is what it looks like when someone with high STR tries to intimidate someone in spite of being un-charismatic. Mind, I have never said that I was against a circumstance modifier "Clearly able to carry out threats of violence on the spot", but is that what people are advocating? NO.. they want to bypass the consequences of dumping one of their stats to obscene levels and use their prime requisite stat to boost a skill which has only marginal connection to said stat at best so that they can act like a bad mofo without actually buying the stat that everyone else has to buy to look like one. That's no different than me trying to convince everyone that it's OK for my wizard to use his 18 Intelligence as a bonus to hit and damage INSTEAD OF my 4 Strength. If I wanted to be able to do a lot of damage with my staff, I should have put a decent score in Strength to begin with rather than whining and trying to get the rules changed. That's what's being said here.. You say "I want my fighter to be scary and impressive", we're saying "No problem, just give him a decent Charisma and buy the Intimidate skill", you're saying "Nono, I want to use that to dump, but I want to look impressive and scary anyways..", to which we can say "Well, maybe if you put a LOT of skill ranks in Intimidate?" and we hear "But I want to use my PRIME REQUISITE to look impressive.." and the response we're giving is "Well, no, if you want to look impressive, you need to put a decent score in the stat defined as 'Looking impressive'." This is not rocket science, and we are not out to ruin your day by requesting that you actually respect the fact that your strong character is amazingly deficient in the area which controlls the essence of being impressive and able to get people to do what you want.I can imagine a Fire giant with CHA 8 and STR 32 that would make me tell him what ever he wanted if he threatened me with a bit of violence. Maybe, but it wouldn't be because he was using a strength modifier, it would be because situationally I knew he could hurt me. The threat itself would probably be a bit flaky.Wimps need charisma :behold: (and sorcerers). And any fighter who wants to look impressive or frightening. Charisma is the Mental equivalent of Strength. Just as people with a 3 Strength shouldn't expect to be able to tackle people and grapple them with amazing skill and power, people with a 3 Charisma shouldn't expect to be imposing their will on anyone.
Vel_Ziliuse 07-17-03, 06:27 AM	As a DM I use Intimidate as a MAD skill ... where MAD stands for Multiple-Ability Dependency. When a player decide to Intimidate someone I ask her how she is going to do it (if she describe it in belivable details I even grant bonuses). Then I decide wich Ability she is going to use. If the player makes a show of brute force to scare away some commoners is Str, if the player is subtlety menacing the Major is Cha or maybe Int depending how the player is doing it ...
JusticeZero 07-17-03, 07:05 PM	I have no issue with situational modifiers, as I said. I just think it's a bad idea to let fighters treat Charisma as their god-given right to throw away one of their stat rolls without consequences. If you want to be able to frighten people, you need to have the ability to be frightening. If your charisma is low, you aren't frightening in your own right. Any ability to get your way with a show of strength is purely conditional.
Ellena 07-20-03, 05:27 PM	I dont' see why strength shoudl be the priem reqisite for intimidation. IMO, there's nothign scarier then having a wizard threaten to use you fo rmagical experimentation ;> if you'e big and stong and can beat the heck out of a guy, that's a circumstance bonus that can help offset your poor way wth people. if you can tur a man into stone, that's also a rather effective circumstance bonus, too. eithr way, how you word the threat will have a big effect on their response.
MadBlue 07-20-03, 11:07 PM	Originally posted by King of Diamonds in all actuality fear and intimidation are realy not the same things. you can scare the (explitive deleted) out of someone and not get your way "Ill crush your bones and make a stew out of your entrails" or you could intimidate them "I hear you just got married to a beautifull woman... you say shes with child? Why I would hate to imagine somthing terrible hapening to her while you are so far away and unable to hear her cries" that is the diferance right there Actually, the former is more an example of an Intimidate check than the latter. If I make a successful Intimidate check, the target gets out of my way. If I fail, then what happens? In the former case, he holds his ground and faces off against me and we roll for initiative. In the latter case, he holds his ground and faces off against me and I snap my fingers and somewhere, a beautiful woman with child dies. Now, if I were Bluffing in the latter case, the target would roll Sense Motive to call my bluff, but even if they took me seriously (i.e. I'm not bluffingm or I am but they didn't call my bluff), you can't base how important someone's family is to them on a die roll. That's not an example of an Intimidate check. You can base how important walking away from a situation physically/psychologically intact is to them on a die roll, though - which is what Intimidate is for. The effects of a successful Intimidate check only last as long as the Intimidator is present. They'll give me the keys to the tower, get out of my way, etc., but they very well might call the guards as soon as I'm gone, as the source of the Intimidation has been removed. If I'm holding someone's family at their mercy, I'm still a threat even when I'm not in the target's presence. That's not what the Intimidate skill is for. FWIW, I'm in favor of basing Intimidate on the ability being brought to bear in the situation. Essentially, though, it's ultimately the Ranks in Intimidate that determine how Intimidating you can be, so even if you only base it on Charisma, a Half-Orc Barbarian with a 4 Charisma and 13 Ranks in Intimidate is going to be good at intimidating. He's not going to be going "um, err, ah" and avoiding eye contact. MadBlue
Luminosity 07-21-03, 01:23 AM	Great, works for me. I want a wisdom bonus to attack and damage for my cleric, because he is able to spot weaknesses better than a character with low wisdom. Same deal for intelligence for my wizard. He's studied anatomy, so he knows how to hit where it hurts. Charisma for my sorc. He's confident enough to go for the groin, so to speak. Also, wis, int, cha to AC. I'm sure I could rationalize that if I want to. And they should all stack.
MadBlue 07-21-03, 04:24 AM	Originally posted by Luminosity Great, works for me.I know you were being facetious, but some of what you brought up are already special abilities for certain classes and PrCs. In any case, I'm suggesting the situation, not the player should determine which ability to base it on. MadBlue
Leap 07-21-03, 05:57 AM	In nature, when animals compete (over territory, food or a mates), an animal that is smaller and less powerful will generally defer to an animal that is bigger and more powerful. When they are fairly similar, it is then that ‘combat’ can occur; however each first tries to intimidate the other in backing down…..a test of will and ‘force of personality’. This same understanding needs to be applied to DnD. Intimidation settles issues that explicit power alone cannot.
Mister Mayhem 07-21-03, 05:09 PM	Something that occured to me today, whilst watching the Justice League cartoon. Who is more intimidating, Batman or Superman? In every portrayal of these two I have seen, people are more intimidated by the bat. His threats are always more succesful than Supermans. Yes, Batsy probably has heaps of intimidation skill, but if intimidation was STR based, then Supes would be one of the most intimidating beings on the planet - I hate to think what his STR mod is in D20 terms... Logic dictates that the most dangerous of these two is the one that could decapitate you with a flick of his finger, drop a small mountain on you, or slice your legs off at the knee with a glance. But when it comes to intimidation, it is the Dark Knight who has hardened criminals turning themselves in to the cops and spilling their guts.
Ninja Joe 07-21-03, 11:56 PM	Personally, I agree with the group that says Intimidate is based pretty much exclusively off Charisma. After all, all it takes to intimidate anyone is sheer intent, or the appearance of sheer intent, to do something drastic. Actually, I should say that projecting a strong aura of intent is the key. Big/strong really does mean nothing. It's all about how you carry yourself. Example 1: Two fighters begin a sparring/tournament match. Fighter 1 is huge: 6'7'', 290 lbs, all muscle, but low charisma. Fighter 2 is the little guy: 5'4'', 130 lbs, looks like an underdog, but high charisma. Fighter 1 comes out and punches the nearest wall/rail/whatever, dents it very much, screams "I'm gonna rip you apart!" at the top of his lungs. However, he doesn't phase Fighter 2. He's not convincing enough. He may have the intent (and the ability), but he doesn't project it well, and isn't as intimidating as expected. Fighter 2, in reply to Fighter 1's Intimidate attempt, simply gives him a big grin, one that cleary says, "You'll never know what hit you." Fighter 1 immediately begins to question his own abilities. Intimidate successful. Example 2: Wasps, bees, hornets...tiny, insignificant creatures, right? Negligible strength by human standards. Thump one, and it's wounded. Tap your shoe on it, and it's dead. What's there to scare anyone? You see a wasp, you say, "Oh, a wasp. That's nice." But for some reason, when he begins to buzz around your head, you start to feel a bit nervous, right? You start to move away from the area, right? I only know about 2 people who aren't intimidated by these little creatures. Hey, all they can do is sting you. So what is it about them? CHARISMA...on a VERY different scale, but some sort of force of will, nonetheless. They may be weak to us. They may be frail to us. They may not be able to talk, but you automatically get the message. "Go away, or I'm gonna **** your world up." And most people are quite compelled (and glad) to comply. Okay, I'm not saying that big guys can't intimidate. They definitely can. But what I am saying is that to do that, they have to be able to effectively put across that message of seriousness and capability. Only 1 of 3 things can do that in this game: High charisma, ranks in Intimidate, or both at once. Strength is only a very minor nudge.
MadBlue 07-22-03, 10:21 AM	Originally posted by Ninja Joe Personally, I agree with the group that says Intimidate is based pretty much exclusively off Charisma. After all, all it takes to intimidate anyone is sheer intent, or the appearance of sheer intent, to do something drastic. Actually, I should say that projecting a strong aura of intent is the key. Big/strong really does mean nothing. It's all about how you carry yourself.In 3.5 you get a +4 bonus for each size category you are larger than your target (and conversely, you get a -4 penalty for each size category you are smaller than your target). At +4/-4, the size difference between the intimidator and the target is a pretty significant factor. Also, in game terms, Intimidate is about overcoming a target's resistance to fear to get them to do something they don't want to do through verbal threats and/or body language. It's not so much that you have to be convincing, it's a question of whether or not the threat you pose is enough to make someone consider the consequences of not doing what you want them to do. Which is why Intimidate has a DC of target's level plus modifiers, instead of being opposed by Sense Motive. I mean, if I hold a knife to someone's throat and tell them I'm going to kill them if they don't give me their money. I'm not rolling dice because I'm trying to convince them I'm serious, I'm rolling dice to see if the threat of death is enough to make them comply, or whether they're willing to put up a struggle. A low-level character would be easy to cow, but a high-level one might have enough tricks up their sleeves that someone with a knife to their throat isn't necessarily a threat to them. Example 1: Two fighters begin a sparring/tournament match. Fighter 1 is huge: 6'7'', 290 lbs, all muscle, but low charisma. Fighter 2 is the little guy: 5'4'', 130 lbs, looks like an underdog, but high charisma.In the situations you presented, Fighter 1 is basing his Intimidate skill on Strength and Fighter 2 is basing it on Charisma. There's a mechanic in the game for just such a situation, why not use it? If Fighter 2 isn't intimidated by Fighter 1, he could just as well be a veteran, so the DC is higher. It could be that Fighter 1 "isn't convincing" to Fighter 2 not because Fighter 1 has a low Charisma but because Fighter 2 is difficult to frighten. Note that neither of them could intimidate a 3rd level Paladin, regardless of how much of a threat they pose. Example 2: Hey, all they can do is sting you. So what is it about them? CHARISMA...on a VERY different scale, but some sort of force of will, nonetheless. Going by the game mechanics presented in the core rules, a wasp doesn't get a Charisma bonus and can't use the Intimidate skill. Even if it could, it would be hit with a -16 size difference penalty to intimidate a human. What's goes on between humans and wasps IRL isn't using Charisma or Intimidate as defined in game terms so it's not a good example. I mean, it's a good example of being intimidated IRL, but you couldn't use the game mechanics of Charisma and Intimidate to model the situation. MadBlue