Post/Author/DateTime	Post
tskeeve 10-20-03, 06:54 PM	Hi everyone, I'm new to the Wizard boards, and new to the game. I've been playing in my current campaign with a rogue, but for some reason it is just a bit boring for me in a heavy hack-n-slash campaign. I was lurking on the Character optomization board, and I found out that clerics are quite powerful. I was still a bit unsure about choosing a cleric, but then I saw a cool picture of Jozan the cleric in the PHB, with a mace in hand, fighting off ghosts. That was cool. Browsing through the spells, I saw another picture of Jozan, smiting something. Nice. I was starting to like the idea of a cleric even more, so I finally decided that since our party doesn't have a cleric anyways, and I can just convince our gnomish wizard to become an arcane trickster to take care of traps and locks, that I will play a cleric. Problem is, I'm not too crazy about the whole pious, devoted, religious cleric guy trying to preach to everyone about his god, no matter how much holy smackdown he can dish out. I really want to play a caster heavy, divine class, without a diety. Basically, is there a way to create a cleric without a diety? I'm wondering if I can support this concept with something like the cleric is searching for the truth of life, or something philosophical like that, and he can only find the truth if he embraces all thoughts and ideas (true neutral). He channels pure divine energy without a diety. Would this concept be feasible? I like the cleric classe's abilities, spells, and pretty much how stylish it would be for a cleric to smite someone with their spell while lifting his mace for an attack. :D Any thoughts?
Yen-Lo-Wang 10-20-03, 07:09 PM	It's possible...check this thread for a long debate on the subject http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=114265&highlight=cleric+no+deity
Gellion 10-20-03, 08:08 PM	Originally posted by Yen-Lo-Wang It's possible...check this thread for a long debate on the subject http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=114265&highlight=cleric+no+deity I made that thread.:bounce:
tskeeve 10-20-03, 08:35 PM	thank you.:)
Yen-Lo-Wang 10-20-03, 08:37 PM	No worries;)
Trydan 10-21-03, 08:56 AM	Why not have a cleric of atheism. The atheology of this sect works as follows. The universe is as it is due to willpower. The gods will it that way, so it is. The only reason why mortals cannot do this, is because the gods' will is stronger. There are two ways out of this.[list=1] Like all other clerics, align yourself with a god, and become an instrument of his will. That way, you actually are just a tool for the god, and you really lose your own will (no, you are not anticipating what is best for your god, rather, your god is shaping your mind to become his "implementor". The second option is to deny the existance of the gods. By denying their existance, you destroy faith, and without faith they are nothing (cheers to D.Adams for that logic). Thus in the void of faith, the gods are actually absent, and the only dominant will is your own. This you can "will" reality to happen. Of course, this requires true belief that the gods don't exist, and not just "yeah, they probably do exist, but I'm just saying they don't so I can escape temple-tax". [/list=1] Hmm... I've never tried this, but it sounds interesting.
Morka 10-21-03, 10:09 AM	If you play a game largely hack and slash, you can be a cleric of Tempus. You will have little opposition, and little occasion to argue against another faith. And if some boring heretic come to you, you can answer with your sword, this will be a very pious act! :fight!:
tskeeve 10-21-03, 04:32 PM	Thanks for all the replies. After reading the thread I was directed to, it looks like lots of dm's do not like having godless clerics in their games. I don't know why. I didn't even know that making a godless cleric is some people's way of getting sweet powers. The thing is, I wish there was just a plain old divine caster class, without a diety. A druid can cast without a diety, but I don't like the nature aspect of that class. A cleric would be a perfect fit, but I hope that people don't shun me for creating a godless one. It seems kind of foolish to me to deny the existence of the gods in Forgotten Realms (which I play in, and would like to continue playing in), when they come down to Faerun, do miracles, and all that other godly stuff. My cleric would not deny the existence of such gods, but believes in his own philosophy. I have heard of players who become gods themselves and I think that is really cool. I can't imagine a cleric becoming a god though, when he is completely devoted to his own god. That basically means he is limiting the power that he can hope to acheive. And from what I've heard about players becoming gods, I think that is a cool aspect of the game. I think the point of this really confusing paragraph is that I don't want my cleric to become some god's b*tch.
Lord of the Ninth 10-21-03, 06:25 PM	:teach: Well, as to DMs not allowing godless clerics, sure they can do that, just like they can say all vampires are actually few and have little wands that they poke people with. But it would be a house rule. Because godless clerics are core. If you read the description of the cleric (I can't remember the exact section) they mention that you can be a cleric without slecting a deity (it's 'e' before 'i' cuz it's from the Latin 'deus'). All you do is pick to domains that define you clerics philosophy and you're set. For example, say your character worshipped the idea of perfection in combat. You could select the War and Strength domains, and have whatever alignment you so desired. You wouldn't have to worship a deity. However, some DMs will say that you have to agree to a certain code of conduct that goes with your philosophy. Plus there are limits to what domains can go together, for example you can't take both Good and Evil or Chaos and Law, but otherwise you can mix and match however you desire. Now, on the topic of not believing in the gods. Of course it would be moronic to believe that the gods in Faerun don't exist, because the evidence is everywhere. However, you can choose not to worship anyone of them. In addition to this, you can also claim that they are false gods, that they are actually mortals who are simply beyond the powers of any that currently exist, save eachother. This si pretty much the philosophy of the Athar (from Planescape, which you really ought to get to know if you play FR, seeing as how it's where all the good stuff in FR came from). The problem with this belief is that many of the gods and their servants will hate you, and depending on the level of involvement of the gods in this campaign, you might get smitten. So I'd stick with the idea of belief but not worship. Hope this helps:cool:
TheBlackBart 10-22-03, 08:28 AM	Well, as to DMs not allowing godless clerics, sure they can do that, just like they can say all vampires are actually few and have little wands that they poke people with. But it would be a house rule. Because godless clerics are core. According to the PHB, yes. But that guy is playing in the Forgotten Realms, and there all divine spellcasters get their spells from a deity. Clerics, druids, paladins, rogues, adepts... all. If his DM okays it though, why not? It is their game! But, personnally, I would suggest to choose one of the least proselytising gods. Many give more importance in the actions the cleric does in His honor, than the way he accosts infidels. After all, this is a tolerant polytheist setting. Most good (and Neutral) deities don't systematically want to steal the worship of their fellows. You may have to defend your faith once in a while anyway, but it would be the same with a philosophy anyway.
Morka 10-22-03, 08:42 AM	Lord of the Ninth, my understanding of this rule differs from you. You don't worship no deity , you worship many deity. That's different. For example, if your CG cleric needs an healing spell, he could ask it from Lathander. Then, if he needs a fighting spell, he could ask it from Tempus. An "hold" spell? Let's ask it from Mystra. My 2¢.
Obi-Wan Quixote 10-22-03, 12:49 PM	Who says you have to go out and proselytize about your god all the time? There are other ways of playing the cleric. Some of the following is cadged from D20 books, some is my own musings. Why not look into some other clerical archetypes? Inquisitor Rather than spreading the word about your god, you make sure that certain people within the church are sticking to the god's beliefs ... and following the tenets of the faith. Roleplaying tips: Speak in a quiet, yet intimidating, voice. Constantly eye everybody you talk to as if you can see into their innermost soul. Never smile. Holy Warrior Some are called to preach. Others are called to battle. Your job is to defend the faithful, and perhaps even the world, against the forces of unholiness. With your faith in your god to protect you, you are impervious to all harm. Roleplaying tips: Never shirk an opportunity to confront the unholy. Invoke the name of your god when staring down your opposition. Exhort your allies to battle in the name of your god. Exemplar You don't proselytize. You lead by example. If your god is a scholarly god, you live the life of the ascete. If your god is a god of battle, then you are devoted to the martial arts. You have taken your deity's proclamations and made them the cornerstone of your very being. Roleplaying tips: Live as your deity commands. While you don't have to exhort everybody to live as you do, make sure to mention your deity's name and state that you live as he commands. Intercessor You don't directly "worship" or "proselytize." Instead, you are the cleric of a deity normally inimical to the living -- for example, a god of famine, pestilence, destruction, or talk radio. Instead of glorying your deity by spreading famine or pestilence, you plead with your deity to spare certain populations that are worthy of life. Roleplaying tips: You are consumed with mercy. Make it a point to find out how the people around you live and try to alleviate their suffering. Pray to your god to be merciful.
Frodo Lives 10-22-03, 10:40 PM	Every cleric doen't have to worship a god, except in campaigns like the Forgotten Realms. What a cleric does have to do is create a balanced philosophy that has RP restrictions that are in line with a godded cleric. If you want to play a cleric that doesn't have to answer to anybody and can act any way they want, well in my game you would be out of luck. That's like saying, I really like playing sorcs but I want to have more spells known. You can't take an important part of a class and ignore it just cause you don't like it.
Gingerbread Guy 10-23-03, 01:30 AM	Hiho, First of all.. I go the impression that you want to play a Cleric because they're powerfull. You also want to do this without the baggage of, you know, roleplaying. Am I reading this right? What you want is a Fighter-Sorcerer. Lots of spells, armor and junk - no God. As to Godless Clerics, I'm all for them, as long as there's still a divine reason for their powers. I mean, nobody is tossing Holy Smites around "just cuz". Cheapening divine magic to "its powerful, so I want it" really blows. I currently play a Dwarven Cleric who follows no diety, though she is respectfull of dieties, especially those related to Dwarven society [Moradin and his other incarnations]. Her divine magic comes from the spirits of her clan's ancestors, who empower the eldest child born to their clan of every 5th generation. However, with these clerical powers comes the responsability to use them to bring glory to the Clan. Thus a good reason to be adventuring. If you really want a Godless Cleric, I suggest going with the Paladin. No, they don't cast spells out of their arses, but they do have a lot of powers that resemble spells even at first level. Detect Evil, Lay on Hands, Turn Undead, etc etc. They also have better HP, better BAB, get a mount, and have all kinds of bonus angst that makes for fun roleplaying. ^_^ ~Ginger