Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Scyld 08-11-05, 04:28 PM	After watching many people try and fail to play a character who is a gender other than their own, I've noticed four common pitfalls. 1. The character is all appearance, with no substance. 2. The character has a canned personality. 3. The character is both intensely sexual and incredibly immature (both sexually and otherwise). 4. The character's background reads more like a fevered fantasy (and I don't mean the genre) than an actual person's history. In light of this, I've come up with a helpful guide for how to avoid turning your other gendered character into a pair of breasts on legs or a set of walking balls. Step 1 - YOU ARE NOT STUNNINGLY ATTRACTIVE. You are not a 'seething Barbarian' straight out of the pages of 'The Eye of Argon,' nor do you resemble a porn star. Look at your character description. If any of the following words appear therein, cross them out and try again: stacked, ripped, buff, iron-muscled, busty, hot, torpedo-breasted, well-hung, or any other word that might describe a Luis Royo or Julie Bell fantasy drawing. Step 2 - YOUR CHARACTER MUST HAVE A DISCERNABLE PERSONALITY, and it is not allowed to be 'bimbo' or 'Conan.' Once you've written a discernable personality, it's time to review it. Look at your character sheet. Is your character 'intelligent, talented, good natured, independent, strong willed, and stubborn?' If so, tear up your character sheet and try again. Better Bimbo or Conan than Mary-Sue. Step 3 - YOUR CHARACTER MUST HAVE A BACKGROUND, and it is not allowed to include prostitution, life as a concubine, nor 'work as an assassin who seduces her targets and then kills them in their sleep.' In the same way, you are not allowed to be a 'mauler of young wenches' bosoms,' nor have you ever been employed as a gigolo. Step 4 - YOUR CHARACTER MUST REMAIN CLOTHED AT ALL TIMES (so to speak). If you really want to explore your character's sexuality, do it in a way that is consistent, not with your personal fantasies, but with who the character actually is. Kill all your darlings. This is not about you getting a happy. This is about the development of a character in an area that, if done with maturity (and taste), can be very rewarding, but which is very easily spoiled if handled poorly. Hoping it helps... ^_^
derfenrirwolv 08-11-05, 09:34 PM	Men are not dumb. We simply see the world of emotions and nuances with the crayola 8 pack. Women have the delux 64 set with the sharpener in back. We can be prone to miss things Women are not overly emotionaly, they simply see more nuances than males do, however... they are sometimes prone to seeing something that isn't there
Berzerker_prime 08-11-05, 11:26 PM	Men are not dumb. We simply see the world of emotions and nuances with the crayola 8 pack. Women have the delux 64 set with the sharpener in back. We can be prone to miss things Women are not overly emotionaly, they simply see more nuances than males do, however... they are sometimes prone to seeing something that isn't there Whadaya mean by that!?! Are you saying that women overreact?! That we're raging fantisizers who think that everything is about us and that we make up stories to fulfill our wild soap-opera fantasies!?! Kidding! I'm kidding! This is Berz, kidding! But I do think the above statement is still something of an overgeneralization. I've known plenty of guys who have emotions and can sense them in others with amazing ability (in fact, the person I know who can do this the best is a guy). Conversely, I've known ladies so oblivious to such things as to make a driver talking on a cell phone look attentive to the ant in thier car's path. Not to sound like some kind of psychotic, raging feminist or anything, but I think a lot of the differences have to do more with social standards than with physical differences. There are physical and psychological differences, I'm not arguing that. But it's just plain more socially acceptable for a girl to show emotion than a guy. Observing and showing are two different things, though. Of course, that in and of itself is a rather large generalization, too... Long story short, I don't think there should be any difference at all to how one rolls up a character of the opposite sex as the player. The same story questions still apply: Who is your character? What motivates her? Where is she from and where is she going? When did she begin her journey? Why did she choose the life she chose? There shouldn't be any single quick-fix to playing characters of the opposite sex. You're playing a character, after all, not a gender. Just my two cents. Sweet water and light laughter! Berz.
Scyld 08-12-05, 12:10 AM	re: Berz Yes, exactly.
Serielle 08-12-05, 12:23 AM	So... in other words.... make your character of the opposite gender exactly like you would make one of your own gender? :D Edit: Guess that's already been said. That's what I get for only reading the original post.
Radijs 08-12-05, 05:00 AM	Men are not dumb. We simply see the world of emotions and nuances with the crayola 8 pack. Women have the delux 64 set with the sharpener in back. We can be prone to miss things Women are not overly emotionaly, they simply see more nuances than males do, however... they are sometimes prone to seeing something that isn't there With your permission: This one is sooo sigged.
derfenrirwolv 08-13-05, 09:03 AM	But I do think the above statement is still something of an overgeneralization. Of course it is.. you're writing a guide to playing another gender, which involves speaking of the other gender, which involves making statements about half of the population.. how the heck are you going to do that WITHOUT making a generalization? Note i specifically did not say ALL women. I said women. Has politcal corectness realy gotten to the point where i need to say " As a statistical average compared to the male population, most women are better at percieving emotions than most men taking into account the fact that with a large population individual attrivutes will vary and there is nothing preventing women from being at the bottom of the bellcurve or men at the top.. .furthermore..." pause for breath There are different degres of generalization. ALL women means every last single woman on the planet.. i don't know if i could think of a sattement that would qualify for this. Even "all women have at least two X chromosomes" or "no woman has a Y chromosome" would be false, as there are incredibly rare genetic conditions where this is not the case. Most women would be something that applied to i don't know.. say 75% f the population or more roughly? Women without a qualifier would mean compared to men it would in no way shape or form translate as all women the way you have done unless you're looking to break out the whacking stick o' political corectness. I've known plenty of guys who have emotions and can sense them in others with amazing ability (in fact, the person I know who can do this the best is a guy). Conversely, I've known ladies so oblivious to such things as to make a driver talking on a cell phone look attentive to the ant in thier car's path. It happens. I know someone like that too, and he is also prone to seeing things that arent there. however if you want to play something other than the same character but with the plumbing going the opposite direction the character is going to have to be different, and the emotional radar is one component of that. Not to sound like some kind of psychotic, raging feminist or anything, but I think a lot of the differences have to do more with social standards than with physical differences. There are physical and psychological differences, I'm not arguing that. But it's just plain more socially acceptable for a girl to show emotion than a guy. derf: Its also more socialy acceptable for a male to strap on armor, crawl into a dungeon and bash things. Its more social acceptable for a man to get into a raging barroom brawl, its also more socialy acceptable to be KO'd BY a male adventurer than a female one. There's a slew of things a female adventurer might see differently from a male one, i was just pointing one out.
Scyld 08-13-05, 11:49 AM	Erm. And to think, my original post was supposed to be at least moderately funny. o_O I have no interest whatever in expounding on the differences between men and women. I just get annoyed by people who, when creating a character who is not the same gender as them, succumb to the lure of the chainmail bikini and the chainmail speedo.
derfenrirwolv 08-13-05, 12:35 PM	It was, however the best humor often contains wisdom.
XrP-Leon The Second 08-13-05, 01:45 PM	You should read the book "Brain Sex", it's pretty interesting, and describes the diffrences between a male and female brain. I've read it, and I have no problem roleplaying female characters (I don't know if this is because I read the book, but hey) and they generally get along well with the rest of the party.
Deadlion 08-14-05, 04:54 PM	I can imagine everyone coming down on me like a tonne of bricks after this post, so let's just get this said now: I rarely, if ever, play female characters. When I do they are never involved in in-game romance, and are only attractive because a) I don't enjoy playing ugly characters and b) I value the charisma stat. Now then... While I agree with the original post, and would hate to have someone roleplaying some kind of perverse fantasy in my group, I do kind of object. Firstly, I think that D&D is essentially a game of fantasy. This means that as long as in-game the player doesn't start roleplaying graphic sex scenes, if they want to play a sexual character of whichever gender that should be allowed. I once played a game where my friend's brother ran an elven prostitute. No graphic sex, just a regular income and a big amusement value. Secondly I think that running a transgender should not mean ruling out some ideas. For example, say I have a great, mature, serious, well-thought out concept for my female character. Now I suddenly can't use it because it revolves around the character having been a pleasure slave at some point. Admittedly this example will be a rare find, but still... I thought it worth a mention. So yeah. I kind of agree and disagree at the same time. Heh.
XrP-Leon The Second 08-14-05, 07:35 PM	I think the OP was trying to be funny and at the same time give guidelines for the less mature people out there.
Scyld 08-15-05, 11:10 AM	I think the OP was trying to be funny and at the same time give guidelines for the less mature people out there. You are correct. This was not about well developed characters who aren't the same gender as you. This was about resisting the lure of the chainmail bikini or the chainmail speedo.
Trydan 08-16-05, 03:04 AM	Another book worth reading, if you happen to be a male and are interested in understanding the female point-of-view is "The Second Sex" by Simone de Beauvoir.
Manyfist 08-16-05, 03:20 AM	Me find this Intregeing. ;) I never played the Opisite gender in D&D... it's like Taboo. I like to model my characters after my self, if Human (Blonde Hair, Tall, Blue Eyed, Psycho), If Half-Elf (Tall, Blonde Hair, Green Eyes, Suave), If Dwarf (Blonde, Short, Grey eyed, Silly). :D I like to play as a Male changling, Grey Skin, White Hair, White Eyed. I don't know... Maybe playing as a Black skined, Short statured, Big boobed, Red-Haired Female Local Drunkard... be Intresting... ;) It would be the Poler Oppisite of me. ;) (Joking here about the Woman thing.)
Winter Ayars 08-19-05, 08:53 PM	But... what if my boy characters are ex-prostitutes with a penchant for casual sex and risque fashion and my girl characters tend to be raging barbarian shifters*?** (*: Of Eberron, that is) (**: And yes, i am referring to real characters i have actually designed here :schemes: )
Wellby the Fountain 08-20-05, 01:10 AM	if i play a female character, am i allowed unlimited rage for three or four days a month? ;)
XrP-Leon The Second 08-20-05, 01:19 AM	No, becuase you're a fountain. However, if I did it, then yes.
Winter Ayars 08-20-05, 02:25 AM	if i play a female character, am i allowed unlimited rage for three or four days a month? ;) No :rolleyes: You get to rage X/day as determined by your barbarian (or whatever) levels. Just like everyone else. But if you really want to rage all day long check out the Char. Opt. board. I'm sure they'd have something for you :D
XrP-Leon The Second 08-20-05, 04:06 PM	Dude, winter... I don't think you got the joke.
Winter Ayars 08-20-05, 10:27 PM	Dude, winter... I don't think you got the joke. I got the joke, but i was being deadpan about it :P
XrP-Leon The Second 08-21-05, 01:46 PM	ok....
Wileama 08-22-05, 11:09 AM	if i play a female character, am i allowed unlimited rage for three or four days a month? ;) Is it bad that I thought that could be a feat? Seriously though this has gotten me thinking. I've played one or two female characters, but never seriously thought about their periods. I always saw it as a sort of sitcom joke. Still though considering it seriously, I'm pretty dubious. I know that stress and excessive physical exertion, see combat, can lead to slower, and even stopped, menstrual cycle. Combined with the fact that I don't see it adding a lot of depth, why bother? Anyone else care to share their thoughts?
Berzerker_prime 08-22-05, 02:04 PM	Pfffttt.... I am woman IRL... hear me roar. I have had periods that would make a grown man cry just hearing about it. I'm talking about cramps that aren't touched by four pills of ibuprofin and a shot of vodka all at once. I am never doubled over and in so much pain that I can't do things the way I usually do. In point of fact, I find that cramps are worse when I'm not up and moving around, doing things. If you feel the need to roleplay that aspect, and if you think your group can handle it, whatever, it's up to you. But I'm telling you right now, you're going to sound silly to most women who aren't wusses. ;) Sweet water to you! Berz.
ShadowWarrior 08-23-05, 02:26 AM	I wonder how they would compare to forcing oneself to NOT have a bowel movement for four days. That was painful. My advice, never ever try that. Unless you're some sort of twisted masochist :D . Note, I only did that because there were no proper facilities for those four days (stupid four day hike).
Wileama 08-23-05, 10:09 AM	Wow, I'm so glad I'll never experience the many 'joys' related to childbirth... That being said, I guess I wasn't terrible clear in what I was asking. What I wanted to know was if anyone saw any role-playing value in this, because I don't. Oh and Shadow: Seven days, YMCA camp. Nastiest Toilets Ever.
Wileama 08-23-05, 10:15 AM	Wow, I'm so glad I'll never experience the many 'joys' related to childbirth... That being said, I guess I wasn't terrible clear in what I was asking. What I wanted to know was if anyone saw any role-playing value in having a period, because I don't. Oh and Shadow: Seven days, YMCA camp. Nastiest Toilets EVER.
Scyld 08-25-05, 12:17 AM	Roleplaying value to having a period? It all depends. I suppose it might work if your character was in the process of experiencing 'the worst day ever.' Yes, your party of 20th level adventurers was just defeated and captured by a tribe of kobolds. A tribe of REGULAR kobolds. Really really sneaky regular kobolds, who you wouldn't have gotten experience for defeating. Yes, these kobolds are now free to raze the village you were protecting from that balor. Yes, that balor is now free to do as he pleases and you're stuck in a kobold's dungeon unable to do anything about it. Female character: "This couldn't get any worse." Oh and by the way, you feel bloated and are having extremely painful cramps. Female character: "I stand corrected." >_<
Fithero 08-25-05, 02:30 AM	Hey guys, lay off the period jokes a bit hey. Im a guy, so just like all you other guys on the board, i got no idea what going through that is like. We gotta respect the women for going through pain that we will never go through, but hey thats just me. This is why i never play (and advise against) playing characters of the opposite sex. Men *cannot* think like women and women *cannot* think like men, its just that simple. It just makes the group feel uncomfortable and if it is a party with both men and women, somebody is bound to get insulted sooner than later. Better to just leave that land mine alone. Later.
Some Like It Hot 08-26-05, 01:04 AM	As for a man being in a woman's shoes, I think it was best summed up in a conversation between a guy and a girl I went to highschool with. The conversation began relatively seriously, and ended as you see below: Corey: Trent, what would you do if you were me? Trent: Take pictures of myself naked and mail them to me. Granted, those were two people in highschool, that cespool of immaturity that we all remember so fondly. And Trent was just trying to brighten Corey up, but, like was stated above. It was, however the best humor often contains wisdom. And if not wisdom, at least truth. But, at any rate, I do try to abstain from playing things I don't understand (like the other gender) that may upset/insult/chafe someone else at the table. Just my red cents, for whatever they're worth. -SLIH
Scyld 08-28-05, 04:00 PM	To all those who claim that it's impossible to understand the opposite gender - sure, it probably is. But that's because 'the opposite gender' is a phantom. 'Men' is an abstraction of many individual men. 'Women' is an abstraction of many individual women. We never really deal with 'the opposite gender.' We deal with specific men and women, and they are much easier to understand. If you're creating a male character, your task is not to understand 'men,' but simply to understand this particular man. If you're creating a female character, your task is not to understand 'women,' but simply to understand this particular woman. And speaking as a writer, these are not particularly difficult tasks. All you need to do is figure out who they are, where they've been, and where they're going. Everything else follows from there.
modern divo 08-29-05, 08:51 PM	Men are not dumb. We simply see the world of emotions and nuances with the crayola 8 pack. Women have the delux 64 set with the sharpener in back. We can be prone to miss things Women are not overly emotionaly, they simply see more nuances than males do, however... they are sometimes prone to seeing something that isn't there Those are extreme generalizations.
Kythian 08-30-05, 10:21 PM	I want to start off by saying that this is (seriously) one of the most interesting threads I have read here in a while. It provokes thought, as well as being quite humorous in places. Now, to add my two cents... Pain. Women (I think) generally have a MUCH higher tolerance to pain than men do. That said, I would like to point out a fairly recent (20 years or less???) development in medical diagnosis... the Pain Scale. I'm sure most of you have seen it in a doctor's office. So, on to my point... Childbirthing is a '10' on the Pain Scale. There is only ONE type of pain that a man will ever experience that is also rated a '10'. Any guesses? It's kidney stones. Having had kidney stones, I can honestly say OMG!!!! That is absolute pain. There is no way to describe it. Unless you're Carol Burnett, maybe. Carol Burnett described giving birth as pulling your bottom lip over the top of your head! Ok... that would hurt. So... as for sounding like a wuss... damn straight! I don't like pain! I don't want any more 10's! You can keep it! Thank you. :D Note: There is really no point to this post. Not really. It's just aimless rambling. So... if you're offended, stuff a sock in it! No, wait... that's not right. Um, I'm sorry? No harm to foul? Thank you! Addendum I felt I should qualify my pain experiences for all you male nay-sayers that might object. I have experienced sprains, broken bones, dislocated joints, a stick going through one of my calf muscles and tearing out, arterial bleeds (think "spurting"), and even a bullet wound (military training accident). And the kidney stone left them ALL in the dust. There is simply no comparison. I cannot imagine what a woman must go through, simply being a woman. Oh, and even a true migrane once.
derfenrirwolv 09-10-05, 10:58 PM	Those are extreme generalizations. Duh, I'm making a statement about 49.99999% of the population, and then hitting the other 49.9999 % of the population... what kind of politicaly correct pretzly logic needs to dismiss a generalized statement out of hand as if i was attempting to apply it to individuals, or misreads it as "all men.... " and "all women..." See my response to the last person to make your exact same comment. Pain. Women (I think) generally have a MUCH higher tolerance to pain than men do. That said, I would like to point out a fairly recent (20 years or less???) development in medical diagnosis... the Pain Scale. I'm sure most of you have seen it in a doctor's office I'm not buying that. I see guys getting splinters, tacs in the foot , and knocks to the head reacting a lot less to it that women do. Could be a society imposed "men must not show they feel pain" thing, and thats part of it, but i don't think its the whole thing. Just because women FEEL more pain as a routine part of existance and then live to tell about it doesn't mean that they need to adapt better to all pain... its a biologically insignifigant amount of time that a woman spends in childbirth. Also remember that men haven't exactly been living a pain free life for out evolutionary history either. We've been getting chewed up by sabre tooth tigers, trampled by ungulates, clocked over the head and run through with spears in fights and wars.
likerpgs 09-21-05, 03:33 PM	After watching many people try and fail to play a character who is a gender other than their own, I've noticed four common pitfalls. 1. The character is all appearance, with no substance. 2. The character has a canned personality. 3. The character is both intensely sexual and incredibly immature (both sexually and otherwise). 4. The character's background reads more like a fevered fantasy (and I don't mean the genre) than an actual person's history. In light of this, I've come up with a helpful guide for how to avoid turning your other gendered character into a pair of breasts on legs or a set of walking balls. Step 1 - YOU ARE NOT STUNNINGLY ATTRACTIVE. You are not a 'seething Barbarian' straight out of the pages of 'The Eye of Argon,' nor do you resemble a porn star. Look at your character description. If any of the following words appear therein, cross them out and try again: stacked, ripped, buff, iron-muscled, busty, hot, torpedo-breasted, well-hung, or any other word that might describe a Luis Royo or Julie Bell fantasy drawing. Step 2 - YOUR CHARACTER MUST HAVE A DISCERNABLE PERSONALITY, and it is not allowed to be 'bimbo' or 'Conan.' Once you've written a discernable personality, it's time to review it. Look at your character sheet. Is your character 'intelligent, talented, good natured, independent, strong willed, and stubborn?' If so, tear up your character sheet and try again. Better Bimbo or Conan than Mary-Sue. Step 3 - YOUR CHARACTER MUST HAVE A BACKGROUND, and it is not allowed to include prostitution, life as a concubine, nor 'work as an assassin who seduces her targets and then kills them in their sleep.' In the same way, you are not allowed to be a 'mauler of young wenches' bosoms,' nor have you ever been employed as a gigolo. Step 4 - YOUR CHARACTER MUST REMAIN CLOTHED AT ALL TIMES (so to speak). If you really want to explore your character's sexuality, do it in a way that is consistent, not with your personal fantasies, but with who the character actually is. Kill all your darlings. This is not about you getting a happy. This is about the development of a character in an area that, if done with maturity (and taste), can be very rewarding, but which is very easily spoiled if handled poorly. Hoping it helps... ^_^ Sounds pretty well-defined.... I play both male and female characters. Most of the time, they are both the same sort of personality in regards to difference of genders and not individual personality. My female characters arent bimbos, strippers, or easy, they are hardened adventurers that can take as much punishment as their male counterpart. They dont bust out buckets of tears nor do they get all cuddly. Lets just say they dont mix business with pleasure, therefore they dont get romatically involved with their co-workers (other adventurers). They may flirt a bit, depending on their individual personality. Any romantic avenues they may occur are limited to commoners and NPCs. No they arent man-haters, they are like today's businesswomen, strong as a man, ambitious, not so easily to fall for someone, yet they can still be a woman if they wish to be.
Ravenfeather 09-22-05, 12:59 PM	Nah, I disagree with the original post. If you really want to create a character to project your own sexual fantasies than be it so. Fantasy is what RPGs are about imho. It would just probably be a good idea to not just stop there and wonder "Who is she?" But I guess that comes on its own if the character survives the first one or two sessions. Interestingly women playing male characters do (from the very few examples I know) not end up with chars looking like Brad Pit... the one example I remember was a boyish, thin, pale human who was gay, a demon summoner, overly affected and evil to core. Creepy guy, indeed.
Kalai_Eljahn 09-22-05, 03:38 PM	This is all well and good, but... How do I play my own gender? :bigeyes: They're all adults and I'm a poor tomboy fourteen-year-old ne'er-been-kissed virgin, possibly lesbian and with only a faint idea of what it's like to be an adult, straight woman, or even a little-kid girl since I always hung out with the boys. This shouldn't be a problem for my backup character but I don't want to continually play boys simply because of my ignorance. Prostitution and virginity seem simpler than a normal, healthy sexual life right now for girls I play... :(
Kohdok 09-22-05, 10:00 PM	Me? I consider myself quite the feminist, thank you very much, and I just like to consider both men and women having equal roles, values, and personalities. I simply believe that the huge "Gender rift" that has been created is artificial. I mean, a natural gap is there, obviously, but it pales in comparison to the one that society has created; Look at Drow, Human society could easily have gone in that direction as well. Now, this might also be a generalization, but I think I can say with confidence just how alarmingly similar men and women are: Both men and women are fairly perverted. Guys will answer this quote "Heck yes!" and I know quite a few women who would say the same. However, the so-called "Proper" women would probably deny it. Not to say there isn't the occasional person who isn't perverted, but I've seen enough Captain Jack Sparrow body-pillows to prove otherwise... I could rant about this subject for hours, about how Advertizing encourages male perversion by marketing off women's bodies, but I'd probably get some severe backfire on this issue. :rant: Also, Wizards has made no restriction for Gender. The only one I have ever seen has to do with Drow, and that is most definately the exception rather than the rule. There are no penalties for being male or female, and there aren't a particular number of items based on gender unless they are created by the DM. So, yeah, you could say I play male and female characters with no regard to gender (Which I often apply to their personality as well.) Then again, I AM the one who created D&D rules for "Nyokenko". :evillaugh
Master of the Wild 09-23-05, 09:48 AM	Last few posts made me think... Isn't the difference between males and females largely cultural? You see, in this world, we have only one race. In D&D, we have several. It could well be claimed that dwarven females are more like human men and elven men are more like human females. A bit over the top, I'll admit, but I guess you know what I mean. So, if you are a female and play a dwarven female, that might be more difficult than playing an elven male? Now take the world of D&D: would boys be more attracted to fighting than girls? Would girls be more attracted to magic than boys? Why is the only martial iconic female character a paladin? That said, I can imagine a CN half-orc and a LG dwarf - both males, but both have very different personalities. I guess a male and a female dwarf get along better and were more alike as well. What I essentially mean: some people can easily play the male halfling ranger, but have a hard time playing a gnome male wizard; just like some people can play the female elven wizard better than the male dwarven fighter (even though they're male).
JakeQuistis 09-23-05, 03:45 PM	One reference relating to the above is that in Discworld, all dwarves consider themselves to be dwarves, not female or male. There are female dwarves, but all dwarves dress and act the same, regardless of gender. Feminine pronouns are never used, a dwarf is just a dwarf.
Kalai_Eljahn 09-25-05, 07:41 AM	It's quite hard to tell how much of the difference between the sexes is cultural and how much genetic. On the one hand, studies regarding what toys the unexposed kids play with have confirmed there is a difference between them, and on the other of course my own personal experience being the exception...I was far more inclined to wield a stick, sword (I wish) or horsechestnut than a doll. ((Also more inclined to throw horsechestnuts at girls than any of the boys...I was the weapons creator and took the fight far more seriously than I had any right to.)) For my younger brother it was in some ways the other way around...while he enjoyed many traditional 'boy' things like construction stuff, he also enjoyed dolls such as Polly Pocket. While supposedly most tomboys 'grow out of it' I'm nowhere near. No wonder the second time I took The Test it said I was dwarven...though I do have issues with the LG paladin part, seeing as I had near as many points for chaos. ((First time TN Half-elf Wizard))