Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The Unbroken Enigma 07-20-03, 01:41 AM	Hello to all and thanks in advance for the advice and posts. To business: I am lining up to play a role-players dream character: a single-handed (the other lost for stealing at a young age), voiceless cleric (tongue cut out for being a mouthy little slave. Cleric verbal components cleared with DM; instead using humming). :twitch: Normally I would just play the guy and work around the difficulties as much as possible; as that is what you do. However, the number of benefits that this character is sacrificing (without need to) is so high, that I almost feel like he can't keep up with the party...but what to do? Do I ask for more languages? More skills? Some form of misc. bonus to certain skills like Listen? For those that advocate just playing consider the following and how it weakens this character in overall dynamics: 1.) Beyond one-handed thrown weapons he lacks ranged combat abilities, no bows or crossbows. 2.) No two-handed melee weapons. That includes large swords, staffs, spears, etc...(you know what they are) 3.) Without the ability to speak he can't quickly relay what he has seen or heard. You can't send him to gather info, and he can't express his ideas before/in combat. At low levels, other than writing, only magical effects that produce sound would allow him a "voice." I love the idea though and have put tons of work into a great back history explaining everything and selecting his equipment. In short, I want to play him...but... One of these handcaps should be taken in-stride as a good role-player...but all three? HELP! :bounce:
JusticeZero 07-20-03, 02:09 AM	Originally posted by The Unbroken Enigma I am lining up to play a role-players dream character: a single-handed (the other lost for stealing at a young age), voiceless cleric (tongue cut out for being a mouthy little slave. Cleric verbal components cleared with DM; instead using humming). :twitch:Doesn't sound like much of a dream character to me, and i'd consider myself a roleplayer. It sounds like a gimmick character, as opposed to one with roleplayable depth.Normally I would just play the guy and work around the difficulties as much as possible; as that is what you do. However, the number of benefits that this character is sacrificing (without need to) is so high, that I almost feel like he can't keep up with the party...but what to do? Suck it up. Get a hook, learn sign language and teach it to the party (something handy when you need silence, anyways) and bide your time till the inevitable day when someone heals the damage.Do I ask for more languages? More skills? Some form of misc. bonus to certain skills like Listen? Why? You don't have anything that would be 'compensated' in those regards. Ask for sign language. Don't expect it to be a freebie. Anyways, you'll be healed soon enough.1.) Beyond one-handed thrown weapons he lacks ranged combat abilities, no bows or crossbows.And spells.. and as was pointed out, it's only a temporary disability.2.) No two-handed melee weapons. That includes large swords, staffs, spears, etc...(you know what they are)See 1 above..3.) Without the ability to speak he can't quickly relay what he has seen or heard. You can't send him to gather info, and he can't express his ideas before/in combat. At low levels, other than writing, only magical effects that produce sound would allow him a "voice."So learn Sign and teach it to the other players. Use Innuendo, perhaps.One of these handcaps should be taken in-stride as a good role-player...but all three?sounds, like I said, like a gimmick, not a 'role play' character. But one which is better than the usual neuroses, as you're likely to be cured of them in a few levels.
Strife 07-20-03, 01:58 PM	Potions of regeneration may taste vile, but they are good for you :D
The Unbroken Enigma 07-20-03, 02:33 PM	I wish it were only that simple Strife, but alas, this is low magic campaign and my ability to gain regeneration in any form is next to my ability to ascend to divinity. *sigh* That being said I am basically relying on my deity to make me whole after a long series of good deeds (read: I probably get fixed AFTER I retire....). I agree JusticeZero that sign language would help, but as stated that means I have to teach it to the party...presuming they are willing. I think this character is about as far from gimmick as you can get really. If you knew the situation you would be in a much better position to say something like that, but lacking the time to spell out every detail of a custom campaign, you simply are not in a good position to say that. And the recommendation of a hook is most obsurd. As that would require a feat to even use successfully... So the long of the short is that nope this won't be healed shortly, and nope I can't just sit back and await the end of my "temporary disability."
JusticeZero 07-20-03, 02:50 PM	So ask for the hook/stump knife feat. :p That much is reasonable.
Iry 07-20-03, 06:57 PM	Firstly, Presuming you want a hook. You could get a hammer on your hand like certain legendary dwarves have done on occasion, or variants thereof. It will take a feat to use correctly, and if you have any interest in doing it, then take the feat. Secondly, you should definatly teach the party Sign. One character is most likely to take you up on your offer, and at the very least you can communicate with him. Most party members will pick up a few basic signs even despite the most stubborn ignorance. "Danger!" "Go that way!" "I heard something!" Once you have them knowing sign, it makes things much more fun and interesting. You'll possibly get greater magic weapon as a cleric. (Depending on how crippled your environment is) Use it on your hammer hand! Woot! Finally, please don't preach such things as "You don't know the details, don't presume!". We, as the forum, can only go on as much information as you give us, and draw our assumptions from that. Unless we just overlook something you said, anything we conclude from what you give us is your fault. :D
Talmariel 07-20-03, 10:02 PM	First, I gotta disagree with the preaching comment by Iry. I thought JusticeZero was a bit out of line telling you the character has no depth. Lack of information is no excuse for a fairly inflammatory and unnecessary opinion. That said, he had a few good suggestions, but some of the suggestions from him and Iry may be moot since you said it was a low-magic setting. Some kind of tool over your stump is an option. You didn't sound like you liked the idea, although as compensation I think asking for a free Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat isn't out of the question. Sign-language is not a bad idea, but even then most signing realistically requires both hands. Ironic, isn't it? As far as basic combat input, I would suggest your character develop Innuendo along with at least one other party member and work with signals similar to what modern SWAT uses (number signs, pointing for direction, raised fist for stop, etc.). Given a fantasy setting, I'm sure you'd want to simplify some of them to maintain the proper feeling for the setting. At least your character is only missing his tongue and not completely mute, because you can still draw attention with yelling. As far as other ideas for compensation, do you have a copy of Savage Species at your disposal? There are excellent guidelines for what adds up to a +0 level adjustment, and I would simply consider your disabilities to be negative aspects towards a balanced race. The best solution would be abilities that are roughly equal in power to feats (at least one, but two are not out of the question because you have two disabilities). You could allocate these towards anything relavant to skills your character would have developed in lieu of a tongue and a hand. Things that come to mind are a racial bonus (or competence, or insight, if you prefer) to Innuendo (as little as +2 or as much as +5, given its limited application; if you're playing with 3.5 I believe Innuendo was folded into Bluff, in which case I would ask a +5 bonus specifically for using it for Innuendo-like use). Also, if you are using Sword and Fist, there is a feat called Monkey Grip which would solve most of your problem with Large weapons (it's still a -2 to attacks, but it lets you use them one-handed). Another option (if you get two feat-equivalent abilities) is to take Monkey Grip, and use your second to remove the -2 penalty, allowing you to use two-handed weapons one-handed (in-game you would be maneuvering it with your good hand and using your stump for balance and additional force). As a side note, if you have use of the Forgotten Realms book Faiths and Pantheons, the god Tyr is missing his right hand. It may give you some ideas, at least. He's not missing his tongue, but he is blind.
The Unbroken Enigma 07-20-03, 11:26 PM	Many, many thanks Talmariel, First, I gotta disagree with the preaching comment by Iry. I thought JusticeZero was a bit out of line telling you the character has no depth. Lack of information is no excuse for a fairly inflammatory and unnecessary opinion. This is my exact sentiments yet saying so would be whining. I thank you for showing me that I am not completely out of line. Iry you are correct at least that I failed to give appropriate info, but not fully at fault. Moving on. I LOVE the idea of using Savage Species to help out. I am not looking for a complete give me or leverage to just gain some uber-power. I want to work in a legitimate way to balance his weaknesses. An important thing to point out is that a lot of stress is on sign language...this of course is difficult in combat when I must hold a weapon with my only hand...I am working on an idea...but I can't think of good mechanics to implement signing. I believe it is the answer though. Using the stump is a great idea, but I remain reluctant to do so as I am unsure of what to use it for. Many advocate weapons, but I was hoping I could use it for something less destructive. What would be the appropriate cost/modification to have a socket for adding tools or weapons? I will check out the SS and report back. Many thanks! :bounce:
JusticeZero 07-21-03, 12:51 AM	Originally posted by Talmariel First, I gotta disagree with the preaching comment by Iry. I thought JusticeZero was a bit out of line telling you the character has no depth. I said no such thing. I said that it did not ADD depth, and noted that just because you've taken a bunch of weaknesses in no way makes one a "roleplay" character; it just makes the character one with a lot of weaknesses.
JusticeZero 07-21-03, 01:02 AM	Old prosthetics.. victorian era if I recall.. often had a 'swiss army knife' flavor to them - hooks, knives, tools, forks, etc.
Baron Phylos 07-21-03, 01:27 AM	A small blackboard and some chalk. (Unless the character is stuck with a party full of barbarians)
Mr. VanderMeer 07-21-03, 05:19 AM	.) Beyond one-handed thrown weapons he lacks ranged combat abilities, no bows or crossbows. 2.) No two-handed melee weapons. That includes large swords, staffs, spears, etc...(you know what they are) 3.) Without the ability to speak he can't quickly relay what he has seen or heard. You can't send him to gather info, and he can't express his ideas before/in combat. At low levels, other than writing, only magical effects that produce sound would allow him a "voice." Maybe you shouldn't ask for compenation, but make it your 'life-quest'. You could go out looking for a magical item that allows for telepathic communication. Or you could try to find an arm of Nyr (or something like that, from defenders of the faith). It could be a lot of fun. In my campaign I would not offer any compensation for these kind of handicaps. It is a players own choice. I do not have a ddrwaback/benefit system wouldn't introduce one to suit one character. I don't mean to say I am against it. I am not. I do think that if you're DM allows this, he should allow it for all characters, and then it is smart to make a list of benefits and drawback and assign a 'value' to each.
inci 07-21-03, 06:22 AM	get a large or tower shield, wrap it to your arm (you dont really need a hand for that) get a nice One-handed melee weapon and go for a Cleric Tank. you got a good compensation already with being allowed to use humming instead of a voice(I wouldn't). sure it is hard when you are not able to talk, but thats your choice. You have chosen those disadvantages, dont expect to get any bonus for that.
evoken_november 07-21-03, 11:36 AM	Originally posted by inci get a large or tower shield, wrap it to your arm (you dont really need a hand for that) get a nice One-handed melee weapon and go for a Cleric Tank. you got a good compensation already with being allowed to use humming instead of a voice(I wouldn't). sure it is hard when you are not able to talk, but thats your choice. You have chosen those disadvantages, dont expect to get any bonus for that. Actually, I believe the large and the tower shield do in fact require use of the hand at the end of the appropriate arm. You're thinking of a small shield or a buckler. I agree with the people who question the seeking of "compensation" for taking on these flaws. The roleplay should be compensation enough. If you already start the game with a viable workaround, then where is the quest to find a better one? Of course, at the same time, I'm not very fond of characters like this because they have a tendencey to steal the spotlight in the game simply because their handicaps (and the people who inflicted them) so often get major play in the story.
Iry 07-21-03, 02:32 PM	I didn't think most of my ideas were very intrusive on a low magic campaign. The hammer hand idea was based on the fact that it serves inumerable functions, including hammering spikes, nails, blacksmithing, an impromptu weapon, bashing locks, opening coconuts, and everything else a solid "Thwack" might solve. He's already stated he is going to be a cleric, and casting Greater Magic Weapon (A 3rd level spell) on his normal hammer-hand didn't seem too out of line, as a lower level spell. Arm of Nyr might be an idea, but it's a major magickal investment. Ergo, depending on what kind of Low Magic Campaign you are in, it would take up one of your valuable few magic items. Signing with one hand is certainly possible, however it's rather slow with the common version that most americans are familiar with. (There are a few variants, and I won't presume to speak for all of Eurasia.) A fantasy version may not rely specifically on finger shapes, but perhaps more on arm guestures, or a mixture of the two. In reguards to the disagreement on roleplaying validity between Justice and Enigma, I'm going to have to take the middle ground. While being mute and handless is a gimmick, and does not in itself classify as roleplaying, it is an easy launching pad for roleplay if you feel so inclined to do so. Originally posted by Talmariel First, I gotta disagree with the preaching comment by Iry. I thought JusticeZero was a bit out of line telling you the character has no depth. Lack of information is no excuse for a fairly inflammatory and unnecessary opinion. Wether or not Justice was out of line or not is independant of my preaching comment , and still politely stands. Both are responsible for their statements. :P
Tzor 07-21-03, 03:39 PM	In Leiber's Knight and Nave of Swords, the barbarian Fafhrd, having lost one of his hands in a previous novel, get a special bow designed that he can use with his handless arm.
dirk hightower 07-25-03, 03:53 PM	We had a guy lose his vocal chords in one of the campaigns I was in. He took a level in Psionics so he could communicate telepathicly...