A Question about alignment [Archive] - Wizards Community

A Question about alignment [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Eyes in the Darkness
03-04-04, 12:16 AM I have a question about the alignment of an NPC I am creating because I want to make sure I've fit the personality correctly, so I present to you this character concept and I want you to tell me what alignment you think this character is. To avoid tipping my hand to anyone who might know me, I shall refer to my character as Bob.

Bob is a clever fellow. He realizes that the true source of all power is others, so he works to increase those around him. Through study of history and human behavior, Bob has learned that there are three ways to rule people: love, fear, and greed. Love is the best way so long as everything is going goo, because it is the lightest touch on your followers and it is the least dangerous to the ruler. However, when things go sour, love can quickly turn. Thus fear is a better long term method, except for the fact that when one rules with an iron fist one crushes the spirits of those around and makes the followers, the source of power, useless. Thus greed seems the best motivator, for everyone wants to advance themselves. But greed has a flaw too, for as the ruler you have everything that a person might lust after, so your life is endangered by all the greedy people around you.

Thus Bob realized that none of these methods could work forever, so he sought to combine them. If he could make people love him while fearing him and offer them ways to advance to pander to their greed, he would eventually be unstoppable. When Bob passed a slave market one day, he realized how he could achieve his goals. He spent as much money as he felt that he could to purchase as many of the cheap slaves, the sickly and the beaten and the broken ones, as he possibly could. He then took them out of the city and broke their chains and said, "Let us melt our chains into swords so that we might take vengeance on those that would imprison us." Thus he satisfied all three criteria: they loved him for his mercy, they feared him for his strength, and they wished to satisfy their need for revenge. His newfound workers immediately began to prepare for their day in the sun by marching against the orc tribes to seize their territory and their resources. Bob instructed them in rituals of self mutilation and suffering so that they would learn to endure and become strong, so that no one could ever oppress them again. The money Bob and his followers generated from their militaristic activities financed the construction of more equipment and the emancipation of more slaves, until finally he had an army to throw at the current rulers of the land.

Once his followers were bursting at the seams to attack, Bob unleashed them on the world and tore through the ranks of the decadent old order. Once his followers crowned him lord of the land, he assembled his people and the crushed foes that his army had captured. The soldiers he granted amnesty as, "they were only defending their homes from a 'perceived' invader", but the aristocrats and other such people of power he made his slaves for a time to construct a momument to "those who feel either beneath your whips or to your blades to free their brothers", before throwing them to the bloodthristy crowds below.

Now Bob rules a kingdom with the utmost of efficiency. Laws are expected to be followed exactly lest "fair but motivating" punishments befall those who break them. He listens to all the appeals of those under him for changes in the system, and if he deems there to be a problem, he willingly and immediately changes the laws to work better. Because happy, healthy and free workers are far more efficient than depressed, beaten, and chained ones, all of his laws are for the "good of the people" and he does not violate his own mandates so as to set a good example. Thus the people fear him and the law, but because these laws for the most part improve their lives and are fair so long as you obey them, the people love him. The rewards and power offered in joining his powerful and efficient military are a greed motivator that keeps possible usurpers busy and away from the intrigues of court politics.

Thus Bob is called the Two Fisted Lord. One hand is soft and velvety and promises safety and power, and he can get even freshly conquered people to flay their own hides as a show of love and endearment for the "messages of peace and harmony that [he] carries". But his other fist is cold and unyielding iron, capable of crushing dissent with either the bald-faced power of an axe or the subtlty of a dagger in the back alley. Yet, this fist is also a source of safety and power for those beneath him, for it promises to sweep away all of Bob's enemies, and the enemies of his people are Bob's enemies as well.

So, I ask you this, what alignment would you give "Bob"? I just want to see if my guess fits sufficiently with other people's opinions.
The_Yellow_Dart_Swinger
03-04-04, 12:46 AM He is defently lawful that would be hard to argue with. Now I would say either LE or LN, because while he does "free" the slaves he does end up controlling them and using them for his own purposes and for his own ambitions.

He may seem like a "good" king by promising safety to all, but I really doubt he would care if half of them dropped dead. Maybe only the fact that he doesn't have as many people to boss around.

In short I'd guess Lawful Evil.
Morka
03-04-04, 11:06 AM I think like T.Y.D.S.: LN or LE. But I would say LN. He is far more Lawful than Evil. And this part:
He listens to all the appeals of those under him for changes in the system, and if he deems there to be a problem, he willingly and immediately changes the laws to work better.
suggest an empathy that an evil ruler should miss.

Also, he seems really wise. High INT, high CHA, but medium WIS. He seems really paranoīd at the idea of leading wrongly.
Eyes in the Darkness
03-05-04, 06:36 PM I asked this question because I was slightly afraid that I had made this character too LN and not LE enough. Perhaps when I said "problem" though, I should have meant a problem that will eventually effect him. He realizes that while he can rally a majority support by picking on minorities, or make more money by oppressing the powerless, he can also get himself into trouble by a)giving his enemies excuses to rally against him, and b)he could cause a revolt that would weaken his position. Also, since he can't oversee everything in his domain some of his underlings might figure out a way to set up their own agendas and cause problems, or there might be unforseen loopholes in laws that lead to abuses. Also, for the most part he simply listens to the petitions on one day and then explains in detail why things are on the next day. This has a sort of defusing effect as it allows people to safely question any grievances they might have, feel involved in the governing of the nation, and get an explanation for the source of their troubles all while really doing nothing. Bob knows that he could have underlings listen to the appeals and give the explanations, but people respond better if they now that their complaints are being heard by the top dog.

Also, perhaps I didn't emphasize how bad some of the punishments are. Bob rarely executes anyone, but the alternatives are far worse. For example, thieves have a limb cut off slowly over a period of hours with a jagged saw for each offense they commit. Because Bob does not want people disabled permanently by these "lessons" he uses various grafts (from the Fiend Folio) to replace the severed appendage, but the prohibitive expense indebts the person for years, and most likely their entire family for generations. Repeated offenders who do not learn from their "warnings" are hauled off for "re-education sessions" that force people who are primarily civilians to go through physical and mental tortures similar to a modern SEAL training camp run by devils with an attitude problem. Also, many of the public works projects such as affordable housing blocks and street repair are to drain the individuality from people by standardizing everything and removing any traces of the old ways, and the standardized education program is really a way of indoctrinating the youths of his territory to Bob's way of thinking.

Maybe that will push Bob closer to LE than LN.
WarDragon
03-05-04, 09:21 PM :uh-huh: :OMG!
Uh yep, that's Lawful Evil, all right...

I salute you sir, on the creation of a tyrant of whom Bane would be envious!
Morka
03-06-04, 12:33 PM Since this guys used former slaves for his revolt, his followers shouldn't be too many. So torturing people for every offend should bring him a large opposition.

But if the folks are asking too much question, simply point that your neighboor is creating massive destruction weapons, and start a war! The best way for a country to don't look at his problems is to look at his neighboor's problem!
Cynosure
03-06-04, 05:45 PM :bow: Yeah... Definitely, definitely evil.

Might have a problem with rebelions, though. Of course, if I were living under his rule, I wouldn't leave the house for fear of accidently breaking a law. Much less, be a rebel.
Eyes in the Darkness
03-07-04, 12:35 AM This is sort of where Bob gets really kind of evil, for his favorite activity is to twist the people so that they believe that he is an instrument of their will and is always acting for the good of the people. His greatest joy is when someone "holds up their wrists", a reference to a time early in his career as ruler when a man was forced to steal to keep his family alive but requested an audience with Bob before his sentence was carried out. The man threw himself at Bob's mercy and then held up his hands to recieve punishment. Bob was pleased and took the man's hands and then replaced them free of charge and found a job for the ex-thief. Bob's image was made all the greater because he showed mercy to those who regretted their crimes, but he still upheld the law even in the face of pressure to bend or break it in this instance. The man was seen as a hero who willingly took responsibility for his actions when a lesser man would have tried to blame circumstances on what he did.

Also, while Bob's following started out small, it began to grow larger as he made military conquests. He promised prosperity, rule of law, and equality to people living in a mostly feudal system, and with the strength to back up his words, people began to flock to his side. True, many felt that his punishments could be rather brutal, but so long as you didn't break any major laws (stealing, murder, rape, etc.) you were not in any danger, and many of the more serious crimes were related to corruption and the abuse of power. Also since taxes are kept low, everyone is taxed the same regardless of social standing, and granaries are kept full in case of famine or drought, it is in many ways safer to chose to be a citizen of Bob's empire than to live under other another ruler.

And while that slightly tongue-in-cheek bash at George W. was somewhat inappropriate, you're not far off the mark of how Bob operates. He likes to find other nations nearby that are involved in internal turmoil, especially oppression by the government, and invade for the purposes of "freeing the people from their tyranical leaders and lifting their plight". What most people in his kingdom don't know is that Bob often uses political and economic pressures, along with assassinations to change a competent king with a decadent despot, to inspire upheaval in nearby nations to give the excuse to invade and make his rule seem more attractive once the war is over.

Finally, Bob has used subtle social engineering to create a citizen system that is probably the most truly frightening part of the whole process. Basically, to become a full fledged citizen one must go through the same things that Bob's original followers had to go through, and the fact that when he was first training his recruits Bob's mottos were "denial of pain is a strength" and "that which does not kill you can only make you stronger". As such, the rites to achieve citizenship are probably more brutal than the punishments for crimes, but people willingly do it. Why? When Bob was first establishing his kingdom, his followers were elite and powerful, and the recently conquered wanted to be on his side, so many people willingly allowed Bob and his ex-slave followers to do what they wanted to initiate them into the group. After a time, Bob had conquered enough territory that people no longer had to do this, but by then he'd already achieved sufficient numbers to create a sort of clique like atmosphere. Citizens recieved minor bonues over people who just lived in the territory (significant but not enough to make anyone else all that angry because these were really just bonus perks), but in a social (ie. no direct government involvement) setting citizens recieved preferential treatment because they had paid their dues and suffered as so employers gave them first pick of jobs, better contracts and trades, and so on, but it was all subconcious. Since anyone could become a citizen and it was really just a test of endurance that was impossible to fail, it made sense to make a small sacrifice and become a full fledged citizen. Thus Bob's rule was not only accepted, it was desirable and people could justify to themselves and their neighbours the removal of limbs and indebture of an entire family because that person "harms the community and must be reeducated".
Daybreaker
03-09-04, 04:52 AM It's awesome that you've put so much thought into this character.

Yeah, I'd say that he's a Lawful Evil character. You can see his Good tendencies, which is a big plus -- all the best villains have their noble and admirable sides. But still, at the end of the day, you can see the hero of the story saying, "Sorry, but this guy's gotta go."

Excellent work! :ayyyy!:
TheBlackBart
03-09-04, 10:24 AM I'd say Lawful Neutral, but Lawful Evil is also possible, it depends on your point of view.

Seeking power and manipulating others isn't thoroughly Evil, especially if he uses this power to benefit society as a whole. He does have some chaotic tendencies: the "lack" of bureaucracy in his government and the apparent freedom he allows his subalterns and his rewarding of personal ambition. So maybe he could be true neutral.

But overall, I think that pretty good character would be LN.
beavis123
03-14-04, 03:27 PM I have never seen anyone consistenly role-play characters in alignments beside LG, N, and CE.

Most people don't even play them.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Eyes in the Darkness 03-04-04, 12:16 AM	I have a question about the alignment of an NPC I am creating because I want to make sure I've fit the personality correctly, so I present to you this character concept and I want you to tell me what alignment you think this character is. To avoid tipping my hand to anyone who might know me, I shall refer to my character as Bob. Bob is a clever fellow. He realizes that the true source of all power is others, so he works to increase those around him. Through study of history and human behavior, Bob has learned that there are three ways to rule people: love, fear, and greed. Love is the best way so long as everything is going goo, because it is the lightest touch on your followers and it is the least dangerous to the ruler. However, when things go sour, love can quickly turn. Thus fear is a better long term method, except for the fact that when one rules with an iron fist one crushes the spirits of those around and makes the followers, the source of power, useless. Thus greed seems the best motivator, for everyone wants to advance themselves. But greed has a flaw too, for as the ruler you have everything that a person might lust after, so your life is endangered by all the greedy people around you. Thus Bob realized that none of these methods could work forever, so he sought to combine them. If he could make people love him while fearing him and offer them ways to advance to pander to their greed, he would eventually be unstoppable. When Bob passed a slave market one day, he realized how he could achieve his goals. He spent as much money as he felt that he could to purchase as many of the cheap slaves, the sickly and the beaten and the broken ones, as he possibly could. He then took them out of the city and broke their chains and said, "Let us melt our chains into swords so that we might take vengeance on those that would imprison us." Thus he satisfied all three criteria: they loved him for his mercy, they feared him for his strength, and they wished to satisfy their need for revenge. His newfound workers immediately began to prepare for their day in the sun by marching against the orc tribes to seize their territory and their resources. Bob instructed them in rituals of self mutilation and suffering so that they would learn to endure and become strong, so that no one could ever oppress them again. The money Bob and his followers generated from their militaristic activities financed the construction of more equipment and the emancipation of more slaves, until finally he had an army to throw at the current rulers of the land. Once his followers were bursting at the seams to attack, Bob unleashed them on the world and tore through the ranks of the decadent old order. Once his followers crowned him lord of the land, he assembled his people and the crushed foes that his army had captured. The soldiers he granted amnesty as, "they were only defending their homes from a 'perceived' invader", but the aristocrats and other such people of power he made his slaves for a time to construct a momument to "those who feel either beneath your whips or to your blades to free their brothers", before throwing them to the bloodthristy crowds below. Now Bob rules a kingdom with the utmost of efficiency. Laws are expected to be followed exactly lest "fair but motivating" punishments befall those who break them. He listens to all the appeals of those under him for changes in the system, and if he deems there to be a problem, he willingly and immediately changes the laws to work better. Because happy, healthy and free workers are far more efficient than depressed, beaten, and chained ones, all of his laws are for the "good of the people" and he does not violate his own mandates so as to set a good example. Thus the people fear him and the law, but because these laws for the most part improve their lives and are fair so long as you obey them, the people love him. The rewards and power offered in joining his powerful and efficient military are a greed motivator that keeps possible usurpers busy and away from the intrigues of court politics. Thus Bob is called the Two Fisted Lord. One hand is soft and velvety and promises safety and power, and he can get even freshly conquered people to flay their own hides as a show of love and endearment for the "messages of peace and harmony that [he] carries". But his other fist is cold and unyielding iron, capable of crushing dissent with either the bald-faced power of an axe or the subtlty of a dagger in the back alley. Yet, this fist is also a source of safety and power for those beneath him, for it promises to sweep away all of Bob's enemies, and the enemies of his people are Bob's enemies as well. So, I ask you this, what alignment would you give "Bob"? I just want to see if my guess fits sufficiently with other people's opinions.
The_Yellow_Dart_Swinger 03-04-04, 12:46 AM	He is defently lawful that would be hard to argue with. Now I would say either LE or LN, because while he does "free" the slaves he does end up controlling them and using them for his own purposes and for his own ambitions. He may seem like a "good" king by promising safety to all, but I really doubt he would care if half of them dropped dead. Maybe only the fact that he doesn't have as many people to boss around. In short I'd guess Lawful Evil.
Morka 03-04-04, 11:06 AM	I think like T.Y.D.S.: LN or LE. But I would say LN. He is far more Lawful than Evil. And this part: He listens to all the appeals of those under him for changes in the system, and if he deems there to be a problem, he willingly and immediately changes the laws to work better. suggest an empathy that an evil ruler should miss. Also, he seems really wise. High INT, high CHA, but medium WIS. He seems really paranoīd at the idea of leading wrongly.
Eyes in the Darkness 03-05-04, 06:36 PM	I asked this question because I was slightly afraid that I had made this character too LN and not LE enough. Perhaps when I said "problem" though, I should have meant a problem that will eventually effect him. He realizes that while he can rally a majority support by picking on minorities, or make more money by oppressing the powerless, he can also get himself into trouble by a)giving his enemies excuses to rally against him, and b)he could cause a revolt that would weaken his position. Also, since he can't oversee everything in his domain some of his underlings might figure out a way to set up their own agendas and cause problems, or there might be unforseen loopholes in laws that lead to abuses. Also, for the most part he simply listens to the petitions on one day and then explains in detail why things are on the next day. This has a sort of defusing effect as it allows people to safely question any grievances they might have, feel involved in the governing of the nation, and get an explanation for the source of their troubles all while really doing nothing. Bob knows that he could have underlings listen to the appeals and give the explanations, but people respond better if they now that their complaints are being heard by the top dog. Also, perhaps I didn't emphasize how bad some of the punishments are. Bob rarely executes anyone, but the alternatives are far worse. For example, thieves have a limb cut off slowly over a period of hours with a jagged saw for each offense they commit. Because Bob does not want people disabled permanently by these "lessons" he uses various grafts (from the Fiend Folio) to replace the severed appendage, but the prohibitive expense indebts the person for years, and most likely their entire family for generations. Repeated offenders who do not learn from their "warnings" are hauled off for "re-education sessions" that force people who are primarily civilians to go through physical and mental tortures similar to a modern SEAL training camp run by devils with an attitude problem. Also, many of the public works projects such as affordable housing blocks and street repair are to drain the individuality from people by standardizing everything and removing any traces of the old ways, and the standardized education program is really a way of indoctrinating the youths of his territory to Bob's way of thinking. Maybe that will push Bob closer to LE than LN.
WarDragon 03-05-04, 09:21 PM	:uh-huh: :OMG! Uh yep, that's Lawful Evil, all right... I salute you sir, on the creation of a tyrant of whom Bane would be envious!
Morka 03-06-04, 12:33 PM	Since this guys used former slaves for his revolt, his followers shouldn't be too many. So torturing people for every offend should bring him a large opposition. But if the folks are asking too much question, simply point that your neighboor is creating massive destruction weapons, and start a war! The best way for a country to don't look at his problems is to look at his neighboor's problem!
Cynosure 03-06-04, 05:45 PM	:bow: Yeah... Definitely, definitely evil. Might have a problem with rebelions, though. Of course, if I were living under his rule, I wouldn't leave the house for fear of accidently breaking a law. Much less, be a rebel.
Eyes in the Darkness 03-07-04, 12:35 AM	This is sort of where Bob gets really kind of evil, for his favorite activity is to twist the people so that they believe that he is an instrument of their will and is always acting for the good of the people. His greatest joy is when someone "holds up their wrists", a reference to a time early in his career as ruler when a man was forced to steal to keep his family alive but requested an audience with Bob before his sentence was carried out. The man threw himself at Bob's mercy and then held up his hands to recieve punishment. Bob was pleased and took the man's hands and then replaced them free of charge and found a job for the ex-thief. Bob's image was made all the greater because he showed mercy to those who regretted their crimes, but he still upheld the law even in the face of pressure to bend or break it in this instance. The man was seen as a hero who willingly took responsibility for his actions when a lesser man would have tried to blame circumstances on what he did. Also, while Bob's following started out small, it began to grow larger as he made military conquests. He promised prosperity, rule of law, and equality to people living in a mostly feudal system, and with the strength to back up his words, people began to flock to his side. True, many felt that his punishments could be rather brutal, but so long as you didn't break any major laws (stealing, murder, rape, etc.) you were not in any danger, and many of the more serious crimes were related to corruption and the abuse of power. Also since taxes are kept low, everyone is taxed the same regardless of social standing, and granaries are kept full in case of famine or drought, it is in many ways safer to chose to be a citizen of Bob's empire than to live under other another ruler. And while that slightly tongue-in-cheek bash at George W. was somewhat inappropriate, you're not far off the mark of how Bob operates. He likes to find other nations nearby that are involved in internal turmoil, especially oppression by the government, and invade for the purposes of "freeing the people from their tyranical leaders and lifting their plight". What most people in his kingdom don't know is that Bob often uses political and economic pressures, along with assassinations to change a competent king with a decadent despot, to inspire upheaval in nearby nations to give the excuse to invade and make his rule seem more attractive once the war is over. Finally, Bob has used subtle social engineering to create a citizen system that is probably the most truly frightening part of the whole process. Basically, to become a full fledged citizen one must go through the same things that Bob's original followers had to go through, and the fact that when he was first training his recruits Bob's mottos were "denial of pain is a strength" and "that which does not kill you can only make you stronger". As such, the rites to achieve citizenship are probably more brutal than the punishments for crimes, but people willingly do it. Why? When Bob was first establishing his kingdom, his followers were elite and powerful, and the recently conquered wanted to be on his side, so many people willingly allowed Bob and his ex-slave followers to do what they wanted to initiate them into the group. After a time, Bob had conquered enough territory that people no longer had to do this, but by then he'd already achieved sufficient numbers to create a sort of clique like atmosphere. Citizens recieved minor bonues over people who just lived in the territory (significant but not enough to make anyone else all that angry because these were really just bonus perks), but in a social (ie. no direct government involvement) setting citizens recieved preferential treatment because they had paid their dues and suffered as so employers gave them first pick of jobs, better contracts and trades, and so on, but it was all subconcious. Since anyone could become a citizen and it was really just a test of endurance that was impossible to fail, it made sense to make a small sacrifice and become a full fledged citizen. Thus Bob's rule was not only accepted, it was desirable and people could justify to themselves and their neighbours the removal of limbs and indebture of an entire family because that person "harms the community and must be reeducated".
Daybreaker 03-09-04, 04:52 AM	It's awesome that you've put so much thought into this character. Yeah, I'd say that he's a Lawful Evil character. You can see his Good tendencies, which is a big plus -- all the best villains have their noble and admirable sides. But still, at the end of the day, you can see the hero of the story saying, "Sorry, but this guy's gotta go." Excellent work! :ayyyy!:
TheBlackBart 03-09-04, 10:24 AM	I'd say Lawful Neutral, but Lawful Evil is also possible, it depends on your point of view. Seeking power and manipulating others isn't thoroughly Evil, especially if he uses this power to benefit society as a whole. He does have some chaotic tendencies: the "lack" of bureaucracy in his government and the apparent freedom he allows his subalterns and his rewarding of personal ambition. So maybe he could be true neutral. But overall, I think that pretty good character would be LN.
beavis123 03-14-04, 03:27 PM	I have never seen anyone consistenly role-play characters in alignments beside LG, N, and CE. Most people don't even play them.