Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Visanideth 05-17-04, 04:06 AM	Here's the situation in short: I'm playing an Exalted Rng 1/Fighter 4/Exotic W.M. 1/Kensai 3 (a sort of ritual warrior that hunts undeads - Van Helsing clad in furs and ritual paints) in an alternate year 1,000 Europe. The Church has declared elves "enemies of men" and started hunting them. Obviously, my elf comrade gets capture. One of the last elves in existance, he is sentenced to death in a great execution in Paris. Long story short, I'm exalted, I have a comrad who is extremely good and a Christian, so I decide to try and persuade the Pope (that we know is being manipulated by some BBEG) that killing elves is bad (more complex than this, but let's make this short). I manage to catch up with him, but I'm asked to leave the sword (my bonded weapon). I give it to him, saying that I don't trust anyone else. However, the situation becomes critical when the BBEG shows up. In short, we manage to save the elf, but we're forced to escape from Paris. Being exalted, and since the odds are overwhelming (we're lvl 8-10, the BBEG is epic), I decide to escort the elf out of the city, unable to recover the sword). I later try to go get it, but security is too tight. I leave with the party, as our quest calls us in Norvey. In the meanwhile, I fight using a wooden weapon, and when I level up, I leve up as a monk, as I refuse to use other weapons. However, unable to level up as kensai, to use my class features and fighting unarmed, I'm falling back in the power curve. I'm becoming rather useless. So, I decide to swallow my pride and forge a new sword. Now, my cleric friend has to cast an atonement on me. The DM insists that the cleric should lose xp because leaving the sword was deliberate. I disagree. I don't see my act as deliberate (what should I have done, abandoned the elf? and hiding the sword would have been far more deliberate). I like the idea of having moral dilemmas, but as long as it damages *my* character. I don't see why the cleric should lose xp because of my dilemma (also considering that I respect his deity - Thor - but I don't worship any deity). Opinions?
Saeryk 05-25-04, 05:02 PM	Its honestly up to your DM, however, if you believe that the cleric should not lose experience, then talk with them. It might be possible that you offer yourself up to the god, Thor in this case, and seeing you as worthy he allows you to make the sacrifice in power. This could open up other avenues of roleplaying, since you now were blessed by th god whom the cleric is worshipping, something that could develop into a sort of comraderie. Then again, its up to you to decide what the best plan of action would be. :)
Zelphi 05-27-04, 09:59 AM	You broke an oath of your character, but Atonement deals with breaking the class... I'm unfamiliar with the requirements for the Kensai, so what class feature are you actually breaking?
The_Yellow_Dart_Swinger 05-27-04, 10:13 AM	He knowingly abandoned his weapon since he actully gave it to the guy. Thus he has broken his oath since he hadn't recovered it and since he also leveled up I would say it would have also been too late. To a Kensai his weapon is like his soul in a sense. If a Kensai's sword is lost or stolen he must try to get it back by any means necessary that doesn't break his oath. If he can not or gives up then he has broken his oath and needs an atonement. However if his weapon is destroyed in combat or other means then he has not broken his oath and can reforge another weapon in its place or reforge the same weapon if he has enough of it left.
Visanideth 05-28-04, 10:57 AM	Originally posted by The_Yellow_Dart_Swinger He knowingly abandoned his weapon since he actully gave it to the guy. Thus he has broken his oath since he hadn't recovered it and since he also leveled up I would say it would have also been too late. To a Kensai his weapon is like his soul in a sense. If a Kensai's sword is lost or stolen he must try to get it back by any means necessary that doesn't break his oath. If he can not or gives up then he has broken his oath and needs an atonement. However if his weapon is destroyed in combat or other means then he has not broken his oath and can reforge another weapon in its place or reforge the same weapon if he has enough of it left. Ok, I was a lvl 8 character. Surrounded by a lvl 24 wizard, about 30 lvl 3+ guards, and the pope elite guard, I'm given the option of surrendering the blade, or die. I give the sword to the pope, the only good character in the crowd, since I'm exalted. What was my other option? Dying? Nowhere the oath section says that the Kensai has to dye to recover his blade. Actually, a kensai can *replace* his blade, if he wants. Through divination, I discovered that the pope is keeping my sword in his bedroom, as I asked. Only that the lvl 24 wizard is after me, and he is probably expecting me to come back to get it. I've been DMing for more than 10 years now, and if I were the DM, I wouldn't penalize my behaviour (ok, it sounds corny, but...). If what you want to tell me is that a kensai has to dye before he gives up his bonded weapon, I will tell you that I disagree on this. My oath is to fight a sub-race of undead (shadow-creatures); the lvl 24 wizard is one of the most powerful of them. I could have died in vain; I choose to live to fight another day (he actually sentenced me to death, but I managed to escape). The kensai description says that losing a bonded weapon to fulfill your oath is not considered breaking the oath (the oath comes first). I really don't see how I am guilty.
The_Yellow_Dart_Swinger 05-28-04, 01:24 PM	The kensai description says that losing a bonded weapon to fulfill your oath is not considered breaking the oath (the oath comes first). I really don't see how I am guilty. No where in the Kensai description in the complete warrior does it say that abandoning your bonded weapon to complete your oath is not considered breaking it. A) If your weapon is lost or stolen a Kensai has to attempt to retrive his sword that does not break his oath or alignment. If your sword is lost or stolen you havn't broken your oath but you can't use any of your Kensai's abilities since you do not have your signature weapon with you. But should you choose not to retrive your sword for what ever reasons I would put it as... B) Abandoning your signature weapon. Which does break your oath. You willingly gave it to the pope and left it in the city. Yes circumstances pervented you from retriving it but the fact is still the same that you left it there regardless. Its like leaving your child with a stranger and going to the other side of the world. Sure you might be back, but you might not, and since you don't have possession of it. I would consider it abandoning it since you gave it willing to the pope, doesn't matter the cicumstances about it, you willingly gave it to him so it can't be considered stolen, plus you know where the sword is so it can't be considered lost. Your guilty because you left the sword to save your own skin so it falls under abandonment. I am not critcizing you, I would have done the same, leaving the sword to live. The thing is, take the atonement, and just make another weapon and get over it.
Visanideth 05-28-04, 04:04 PM	A small recap: - Abandoning the sword: the fact that I gave the blade to the only person that I knew I had any chance of persuading to give it back should be IMho a positive factor. If the guards beated me up (which they tried, eh eh) and took my sword while I was unconscious, I would see it as something worse. It's not only losing the blade, but failure while pursuing your oath. This way, I roleplayed the importance of the sword for my character. Getting simply disarmed and then realizing that I lost my bonded weapon would have been worse, IMHO. - Getting it back: I *had* to lvl up. I leveled up two sessions after the event. I choose monk so that I could fight without using any other weapon until I get Rongil (the sword) back. I did not give up on the blade. I'm planning to retrieve it. I don't want to forge a new one. I'm a ranger/fighter. Monk is not exactly the most sinergic option for me. It was a roleplay choice. What I want is to recover the ability to use my class features, to have better chances to recover it. I left the blade behind for out-of-game reasons. The two characters that we were bound to rescue got captured because they acted in a selfish and pretty stupid way. We spent two months of gaming trying to recover them, and it was boring as hell. We have 7 players in our group, and I choose not to condemn the rest to the party to yet another suicide rescue mission. I took the consequences on my shoulders (believe me, a non-monk kensai without his blade and special abilities sucks). - Point one: Atonement: atonement says that if the person acted under the effect of some sort of compulsion, the cleric doesn't lose any xp. Is a lvl 24 wizard threathening to kill you a "form of compulsion"? - Point two: Getting the abilities back: now, the problem is: if I atone, do I get my abilities back, even if I don't recover the blade (or until I do, if you want)? The text that says "he can atone and then forge a new one" seems to hint so. My point is: I think I've pursued the best course of action possible, both in terms of in-game/roleplay logic than in terms of out-of-the-game, collective fun. That my fellow player has to lose xp to intercede with his god to atone me makes IMHO no sense. Do you really think that my character needs divine intervention to be purified from his *sin*?
Zelphi 05-29-04, 07:02 AM	You haven't given up on getting your blade back... just postponed it till a better time? So really you're going back to get it... at which point you haven't broken your oath surely? Except you've decided to abandon it and get a new sword forged... which kinda goes against exhaulted as well doesn't it? I think you've lost your plot a while back. So yes an experience penalty for screwing up on multiple levels, and it's not like it's a huge cost is it?
Visanideth 05-29-04, 08:48 AM	I never broke my oath - my oath is to fight the Shadowlord and kill him, and I'm doing that. I've abandoned the blade, planning to get it back - when I can. Nowhere the Kensai states that the character has to be stupid. No suicide missions, so to say. That said, my being exalted has little to do with my sword. Actually, giving up the blade was also an act of "exalted-ness", as I could have tried to kill a few guards and escape, but considering the odds of success, I decided that it wasn't fair to kill people for a lost cause. I'm exalted because I'm good, I fight against slavery and tiranny, and against evil. Not because I wield a bastard sword. I repeat: the problem is not the Kensai, it's atonement. Does this situation fall under the "under compulsion" bit of the spell description, in your opinion?
DNA 06-02-04, 06:50 PM	Originally posted by Visanideth Actually, giving up the blade was also an act of "exalted-ness", as I could have tried to kill a few guards and escape, but considering the odds of success, I decided that it wasn't fair to kill people for a lost cause. Come on now, that doesn't seem a bit of a stretch to you? If it's wrong to kill the guards, it's wrong to kill the guards, whether the cause is lost or not. The reason you didn't attack was because you thought you'd die. Nothing wrong with that, but it's not exactly martyrdom. I'm exalted because I'm good, I fight against slavery and tiranny, and against evil. Not because I wield a bastard sword. Good point. But the fact that you picked Kensai as a class suggests that there might be more to your character's morality than one might expect. To US, it appears that the character is moral because of the tyranny-fighting and evil-kicking, whereas his dedication to his weapon is an odd personal quirk, but to HIM, dedication to his weapon might seem just as intrinsic to morality as fighting evil warlords. Not that giving up your sword makes your character un-Exalted, but most likely, he feels like he needs that Atonement. He screwed up, coerced or not, and he needs divine forgiveness. If there's an XP price to pay, then yeah, as an exalted character, he should probably try to pay it (or the in-game equivalent). If I put a gun to your head and tell you to rob a bank, and you do so, you were coerced (and thus maybe not legally responsible), but you've still "sinned," and you're still morally responsible.
Manfred 06-03-04, 05:37 AM	Hi, everyone. I'm the Cleric of Thor who should cast the Atonement I would gladly pay the xp cost if needed, because the Kensai is my best comrade (even if he's too much exalted for me), but: 1) I have some doubts about his faith; he has never done anything against Thor or his cult but he always said that he worships NO God at all 2) The Kensai class says that the atonement works only if cast by a cleric of the same alignment, we're both good, but he's lawful, I'm chaotic. 3) Atonement says that there's an xp cost when the "evil" act is deliberate, because the cleric must intercede with his deity. I can't understand why if an atheist Kensai (see n.1) leaves his weapon, that should be a deliberate "evil" act that needs intercession with Thor; something sounds wrong to me, but honestly I can't decide what. ciao Manfred
Visanideth 06-03-04, 06:11 AM	Come on now, that doesn't seem a bit of a stretch to you? If it's wrong to kill the guards, it's wrong to kill the guards, whether the cause is lost or not. The reason you didn't attack was because you thought you'd die. Nothing wrong with that, but it's not exactly martyrdom. I can see what you mean. But the point was: I had odds of winning. With a few lucky rolls, I could have cut myself an escape route and run away. "Cutting" implied striking down 1 HD guards, and as I hit for 1010+14 without power attack, that roughly equals to "mass slaughter". Other consequences: abandoning my elf comrade, going against my word that I wouldn't hurt the guards (which I said as I approached the pope), and several other rather un-exalted things. What I find odd is that I'm a lawful good kensai, if I go against my alignement I break my oath, and yet in this case I have no choice: either I break my oath, or I cease to be exalted. Sounds wierd, doesn't it? Good point. But the fact that you picked Kensai as a class suggests that there might be more to your character's morality than one might expect. To US, it appears that the character is moral because of the tyranny-fighting and evil-kicking, whereas his dedication to his weapon is an odd personal quirk, but to HIM, dedication to his weapon might seem just as intrinsic to morality as fighting evil warlords. Iago (my character) is completely devoted to his blade, Rongil. I've written pages and pages on the blade's background. It's an ancient weapon, whose forging dates to over 10,000 years ago. The blade is passed over from each Kurgan (the name of this barbaric ritual hunter of evil) to his successor. He's mad at having lost the blade. But he is also exalted. His predecessors were brutal and ruthless in the fulfillment of their task. His "master" (his direct predecessor) would have killed all guards ("don't stand in my way"), the pope ("he meddles with the Shadow") and probably died trying to behead the BBEG. My character somehow breaks the circle. Not that giving up your sword makes your character un-Exalted, but most likely, he feels like he needs that Atonement. He screwed up, coerced or not, and he needs divine forgiveness. If there's an XP price to pay, then yeah, as an exalted character, he should probably try to pay it (or the in-game equivalent). If I put a gun to your head and tell you to rob a bank, and you do so, you were coerced (and thus maybe not legally responsible), but you've still "sinned," and you're still morally responsible. I thinks he wants an atonement. He certainly does. But he would refuse Thor's intervention. He doesn't need divine intercession. I see the atonement as a ritual, meditative moment where his acceptance of his failure is made obvious, and a vow of repairing to his mistake is made. I don't need Thor to forgive me.
Saeryk 06-04-04, 08:22 PM	I thinks he wants an atonement. He certainly does. But he would refuse Thor's intervention. He doesn't need divine intercession. I see the atonement as a ritual, meditative moment where his acceptance of his failure is made obvious, and a vow of repairing to his mistake is made. I don't need Thor to forgive me. Then I might say that your character should seek someone he holds as a spiritual leader, maybe an aetheist monk or yogi, and ask them to help him find forgiveness? For the atonement, might you find a way to work with the DM to create a new way to gain a non-divine atonement for what is not necessarily a sin, but which is against his oath? Failing that, why not seek the person who trained you as a kensai to help you forge your bond anew? What I'm shooting at is that there must be a way to gain forgiveness and help in-character... Just a thought.
Visanideth 06-05-04, 03:53 AM	Originally posted by Saeryk Then I might say that your character should seek someone he holds as a spiritual leader, maybe an aetheist monk or yogi, and ask them to help him find forgiveness? For the atonement, might you find a way to work with the DM to create a new way to gain a non-divine atonement for what is not necessarily a sin, but which is against his oath? Failing that, why not seek the person who trained you as a kensai to help you forge your bond anew? What I'm shooting at is that there must be a way to gain forgiveness and help in-character... Just a thought. Thanks for the input. But a couple of things: - "working with my DM" is out of question. He's the nicest person in the world, and a very imaginative person, but he's lazy as hell. And essentially, he's not very fond of house ruling and so on. So, no alteration to Atonement. In fact, in my opinion is that he's not willing to dedicate time to the question (he has 7 players, after all) and since when in doubt he prefers to be harsh than to be kind, he goes for the xp loss. - looking for my master is impossible. In short, the right to wield the sword is given from master to apprentice, by painting a mark on the forehead of the apprentice with the master's blood. My brother was the previous kurgan's apprentice, but later on I happened to witness the kurgan die fighting a shadow giant, and he marked me before passing out. So I can't look for him. - looking for one of the sages of my tribe could be an option, but they're in Germany, and we're in Norvay. No teleport spells in this campaign, so I can't ask the party to take such a trip. Apparently, I'm at loss in any case. Oh well, I'll just wati and see.