Arcane Trickster in Crisis of Personality [Archive] - Wizards Community

Arcane Trickster in Crisis of Personality [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
big bear
02-25-04, 03:45 PM Ok, last night, game went bad. My CN arcane trickster travels with a bunch of worshipers of Tyr, including a paladin and a contemplative. I am not a worshiper so much, but I am involved with the church of Mask and have said a prayer a time or two.

Our latest adventure sees our band of 6 level 13 heroes attempting to stop Bane and Temuna (sp?) and perhaps some other evil gods (we don't know the extent yet) from assembling an artifact of power and destroying the world.

After getting upset with a Gold Dragon who wanted us to prove that we could be trusted by performing some menial task, I went to the Church and prayed for help. Like Tyr did with his faithful, Mask appeared and showed me a vision of great destruction as well as a vision of where I needed to go to stop it.

We get there, whack the evil hordes and after slaying an Avatar of Temuna, I zip forward and grab the artifact (for safekeeping). I miserably fail my will save (+6) and become CE, -10 Cha (im a sorcerer) and in posession of 1/day domain spells from suffering from 1-9. I cannot get rid of it, at least it doesn't want to be gotten rid of.

We are in between combat rounds (them having just slain the last clay golem). I go first. Do I:

Wait: A succesfull hold person could allow them to wrest the artifact from me, but they might get a little jumpy and try to kill me. I don't want the -10 Cha (dropping me from 24 to 14) and the spells i get aren't my style.

Kill now and try to run: Some of our party are hurt and I could easily kill 1 if not 3 with my first spell. With Haste, I could fly far enough away to get out of the anti-invisibility fields and throw a Horrid Withering and blast them all. I woul dhave to reroll as my character became an Evil NPC, but I could end the campaign in a blaze of anti-glory.

Run: . This isn't great for me in any way and they likely will hunt me down and kill me.
nihility
02-25-04, 04:06 PM I think it comes down to extrapolation. First, think about what your character would do normally. Next, think about what your character would do if they really, really liked to hurt, kill, or maim people.

If you want a less one-dimensional version of evil, try to extrapolate based on previous actions what your character would do. Does your character feel threatened? Do you have a reasonable belief that the Paladin might try to kill you? Do you have a reasonable belief that they will try to hurt, stop, imprison, or otherwise do something to you that your character would normally be willing to fight to prevent? If so, what would your character normally do? Okay, now what would the character do if they had significantly fewer scruples?
rilem
02-25-04, 04:16 PM Ah, your charisma's higher than I thought when I read the thread over on the Optimization board. You do have some more options than I thought. (taking Eagle's Splendor would help you survive this encounter by the way, though it's not a great long-term choice.)

I still say you're Chaotic Evil now, so start lying. You should have a great bluff score, and nobody else in your party will have a very high sense motive, I think. Tell them you've discovered how to destroy the artifact, but they can't take it from you or it'll kill you. All they have to do is stand over here, by this big pit ...

I'd talk it over out of campaign with the DM; maybe you could continue as a party member, secretly trying to work a counter agenda for Temuna. The artifact didn't turn you to its side just to get you killed (well, maybe it did, but stay with me). Maybe it saw some potential in you to further its goals.

This could be fun, assuming the DM and the group are up to it. Is the DM trying to end the campaign or get you killed? Are the other players the sort who routinely metagame -- i.e., having the Paladin constantly detecting evil in his companions? Those could be problems.

I'd suggest you request the DM to allow you to take Undetectable Alignment as a new spell -- it's not actually on the Wizard/Sorceror spell list, but it could help keep the storyline rolling.

It's all going to end in tears, of course, but you could have fun beforehand.
horndgod
02-25-04, 04:19 PM Apart from being CE and otherwise being unable to get rid of the item, has your personality changed? Do you now want to destroy the world?
big bear
02-25-04, 08:15 PM Let's look at a bit of the who

He's not a crusader and he is more interested in his own hide than the party or any lofty goals. With his current crew, he doesn't need to bother stealing anything, i just ride along, help make sure no one dies and collect my share of the loot.

The Tyranids are total bigots and religious zealots. They have absolutely no compunctions about slaying anyone whom they "percieve" to be evil. Seriously, these guys are nuts. When walking into the underdark to rescue some kidnap victims, we happened across a random party with an evil aura. They lasted 10 seconds and we looted them (i am actually carrying their swords now). All in the name of Tyr. Think republicans with swords.

I'm pretty serious about not messing up anyone elses life unless abosultely necessary and good guys get better cash then crooks. It was kind of a big deal for me to go to the Church of Mask and pray for the help to stop the evil plan. I like to watch thinks go BOOM, but only if no kids or puppies get in the way. I also like to be rich and well equipped.

Helping Temuna is no where in my agenda. Heck, even Masks help is more of a convience thing. I advance her "not so fond of the apocolyspe" agenda and no one knows who the help came from. She gets to shaft Bane for being a hinderance and no one knows why.

From my point of view, this thing sucks the source of your power and focuses it into the power of raw suffering. I really don't want it, but I don't want anyone else to have it. Apparently the scope of the power is that it's controller is the caretaker of a portion of the domain's power for Temuna (or in this case Mask).

More to come, but that should start the discussion anew.
Morka
02-25-04, 08:41 PM Originally posted by rilem

I'd suggest you request the DM to allow you to take Undetectable Alignment as a new spell -- it's not actually on the Wizard/Sorceror spell list, but it could help keep the storyline rolling.

No, If some cleric or paladin detect an evil aura in your general location, just say it is the evil artefact.

Back to the first question, I don't think you have to kill them only because you're suddenly CE. They were your friends a few minuts ago, after all. Unless you are completely possessed, even the Ring in the LOTR is not able to have someone kill is own friend in only a few minuts.
big bear
02-25-04, 08:56 PM Yeah, but they aren't really my friends. They are the crazy freaks who make me rich. I'd take an arrow or Horrid Withering to keep someone from dying, but I wouldn't cry if they died. Tha is part of the secret to my success. I don't give a fig for them and they think I'm a good guy.

If the extent of a paladins detect evil ability is jsut the item then the only problem will be when i refuse to give it up. If they can identify evil people, I'm toast. Once I realized how powerful it was and that i "wanted" to keep it, It would be in character for me to want to keep it at "most" costs.
Morka
02-26-04, 11:34 AM Big Bear, what does this artifact actually? You only said that you lost 10 CHA point (is it ALWAYS CHA, or just the prime attribute of the one holding the artifact?), it switches you to CE, and it gives you some spells. Why some deity would fight for this?

As for your companions, you made your wealth by following them, I don't see why it should change now that you are evil. At the beginning, show less patience before those exalted knights; perhaps torture a bit your foes before killing them. It could take a few days to truely wish to see them suffering and dying.

I'm sure that swifting alignment to CE will not make you wish to attack the ones who were your companions just a few minuts ago, unless you are charmed by one of your foes.

Oh, and by the way, who is Temuna? I made a search on the boards, on Wizard's site and on Yahoo but find nothing.
big bear
02-26-04, 02:44 PM It reduced MY cha by 10. Cha i don't know why, 10 bcause i rolled a 10 total on my save against an epic artifact. 1 degree alignment change.

It isn't that big a deal in most campaigns, but i travel with 4 tyranids. I expect this to happen.

Brannigan, put it in the bag
No/I can't
Initiative
I take 7 arrows, 5 great sword blows, 5 different HOLY sword blows, a 7th level cleric spell and another 7th level wizard spell or i run away and just take the arrows.
nihility
02-26-04, 05:57 PM Originally posted by big bear
The Tyranids are total bigots and religious zealots. They have absolutely no compunctions about slaying anyone whom they "percieve" to be evil. Seriously, these guys are nuts. When walking into the underdark to rescue some kidnap victims, we happened across a random party with an evil aura. They lasted 10 seconds and we looted them (i am actually carrying their swords now). All in the name of Tyr. Think republicans with swords. Originally posted by big bear
Brannigan, put it in the bag
No/I can't
Initiative
I take 7 arrows, 5 great sword blows, 5 different HOLY sword blows, a 7th level cleric spell and another 7th level wizard spell or i run away and just take the arrows. :uh-huh:
So, I would say this constitutes a situation that a reasonable individual would regard as threatening. You have a significant chance of becoming the target of their ire. By the way, the Paladin certainly can pin you down as evil. From the SRD entry for Detect Evil: 1st Round: Presence or absence of evil.
2nd Round: Number of evil auras (creatures, objects, or spells) in the area and the power of the most potent evil aura present.
If you are of good alignment, and the strongest evil aura’s power is overwhelming (see below), and the HD or level of the aura’s source is at least twice your character level, you are stunned for 1 round and the spell ends.
3rd Round: The power and location of each aura. If an aura is outside your line of sight, then you discern its direction but not its exact location. So, second round he probably gets stunned by the artifact's evil, but if he ever makes it to the third round, he knows.

One other thing:
I'm sure that swifting alignment to CE will not make you wish to attack the ones who were your companions just a few minuts ago, unless you are charmed by one of your foes. Charm spells can't make you attack your friends unless you'd do it for a friend anyway. Of course, a CE character might at that.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
big bear 02-25-04, 03:45 PM	Ok, last night, game went bad. My CN arcane trickster travels with a bunch of worshipers of Tyr, including a paladin and a contemplative. I am not a worshiper so much, but I am involved with the church of Mask and have said a prayer a time or two. Our latest adventure sees our band of 6 level 13 heroes attempting to stop Bane and Temuna (sp?) and perhaps some other evil gods (we don't know the extent yet) from assembling an artifact of power and destroying the world. After getting upset with a Gold Dragon who wanted us to prove that we could be trusted by performing some menial task, I went to the Church and prayed for help. Like Tyr did with his faithful, Mask appeared and showed me a vision of great destruction as well as a vision of where I needed to go to stop it. We get there, whack the evil hordes and after slaying an Avatar of Temuna, I zip forward and grab the artifact (for safekeeping). I miserably fail my will save (+6) and become CE, -10 Cha (im a sorcerer) and in posession of 1/day domain spells from suffering from 1-9. I cannot get rid of it, at least it doesn't want to be gotten rid of. We are in between combat rounds (them having just slain the last clay golem). I go first. Do I: Wait: A succesfull hold person could allow them to wrest the artifact from me, but they might get a little jumpy and try to kill me. I don't want the -10 Cha (dropping me from 24 to 14) and the spells i get aren't my style. Kill now and try to run: Some of our party are hurt and I could easily kill 1 if not 3 with my first spell. With Haste, I could fly far enough away to get out of the anti-invisibility fields and throw a Horrid Withering and blast them all. I woul dhave to reroll as my character became an Evil NPC, but I could end the campaign in a blaze of anti-glory. Run: . This isn't great for me in any way and they likely will hunt me down and kill me.
nihility 02-25-04, 04:06 PM	I think it comes down to extrapolation. First, think about what your character would do normally. Next, think about what your character would do if they really, really liked to hurt, kill, or maim people. If you want a less one-dimensional version of evil, try to extrapolate based on previous actions what your character would do. Does your character feel threatened? Do you have a reasonable belief that the Paladin might try to kill you? Do you have a reasonable belief that they will try to hurt, stop, imprison, or otherwise do something to you that your character would normally be willing to fight to prevent? If so, what would your character normally do? Okay, now what would the character do if they had significantly fewer scruples?
rilem 02-25-04, 04:16 PM	Ah, your charisma's higher than I thought when I read the thread over on the Optimization board. You do have some more options than I thought. (taking Eagle's Splendor would help you survive this encounter by the way, though it's not a great long-term choice.) I still say you're Chaotic Evil now, so start lying. You should have a great bluff score, and nobody else in your party will have a very high sense motive, I think. Tell them you've discovered how to destroy the artifact, but they can't take it from you or it'll kill you. All they have to do is stand over here, by this big pit ... I'd talk it over out of campaign with the DM; maybe you could continue as a party member, secretly trying to work a counter agenda for Temuna. The artifact didn't turn you to its side just to get you killed (well, maybe it did, but stay with me). Maybe it saw some potential in you to further its goals. This could be fun, assuming the DM and the group are up to it. Is the DM trying to end the campaign or get you killed? Are the other players the sort who routinely metagame -- i.e., having the Paladin constantly detecting evil in his companions? Those could be problems. I'd suggest you request the DM to allow you to take Undetectable Alignment as a new spell -- it's not actually on the Wizard/Sorceror spell list, but it could help keep the storyline rolling. It's all going to end in tears, of course, but you could have fun beforehand.
horndgod 02-25-04, 04:19 PM	Apart from being CE and otherwise being unable to get rid of the item, has your personality changed? Do you now want to destroy the world?
big bear 02-25-04, 08:15 PM	Let's look at a bit of the who He's not a crusader and he is more interested in his own hide than the party or any lofty goals. With his current crew, he doesn't need to bother stealing anything, i just ride along, help make sure no one dies and collect my share of the loot. The Tyranids are total bigots and religious zealots. They have absolutely no compunctions about slaying anyone whom they "percieve" to be evil. Seriously, these guys are nuts. When walking into the underdark to rescue some kidnap victims, we happened across a random party with an evil aura. They lasted 10 seconds and we looted them (i am actually carrying their swords now). All in the name of Tyr. Think republicans with swords. I'm pretty serious about not messing up anyone elses life unless abosultely necessary and good guys get better cash then crooks. It was kind of a big deal for me to go to the Church of Mask and pray for the help to stop the evil plan. I like to watch thinks go BOOM, but only if no kids or puppies get in the way. I also like to be rich and well equipped. Helping Temuna is no where in my agenda. Heck, even Masks help is more of a convience thing. I advance her "not so fond of the apocolyspe" agenda and no one knows who the help came from. She gets to shaft Bane for being a hinderance and no one knows why. From my point of view, this thing sucks the source of your power and focuses it into the power of raw suffering. I really don't want it, but I don't want anyone else to have it. Apparently the scope of the power is that it's controller is the caretaker of a portion of the domain's power for Temuna (or in this case Mask). More to come, but that should start the discussion anew.
Morka 02-25-04, 08:41 PM	Originally posted by rilem I'd suggest you request the DM to allow you to take Undetectable Alignment as a new spell -- it's not actually on the Wizard/Sorceror spell list, but it could help keep the storyline rolling. No, If some cleric or paladin detect an evil aura in your general location, just say it is the evil artefact. Back to the first question, I don't think you have to kill them only because you're suddenly CE. They were your friends a few minuts ago, after all. Unless you are completely possessed, even the Ring in the LOTR is not able to have someone kill is own friend in only a few minuts.
big bear 02-25-04, 08:56 PM	Yeah, but they aren't really my friends. They are the crazy freaks who make me rich. I'd take an arrow or Horrid Withering to keep someone from dying, but I wouldn't cry if they died. Tha is part of the secret to my success. I don't give a fig for them and they think I'm a good guy. If the extent of a paladins detect evil ability is jsut the item then the only problem will be when i refuse to give it up. If they can identify evil people, I'm toast. Once I realized how powerful it was and that i "wanted" to keep it, It would be in character for me to want to keep it at "most" costs.
Morka 02-26-04, 11:34 AM	Big Bear, what does this artifact actually? You only said that you lost 10 CHA point (is it ALWAYS CHA, or just the prime attribute of the one holding the artifact?), it switches you to CE, and it gives you some spells. Why some deity would fight for this? As for your companions, you made your wealth by following them, I don't see why it should change now that you are evil. At the beginning, show less patience before those exalted knights; perhaps torture a bit your foes before killing them. It could take a few days to truely wish to see them suffering and dying. I'm sure that swifting alignment to CE will not make you wish to attack the ones who were your companions just a few minuts ago, unless you are charmed by one of your foes. Oh, and by the way, who is Temuna? I made a search on the boards, on Wizard's site and on Yahoo but find nothing.
big bear 02-26-04, 02:44 PM	It reduced MY cha by 10. Cha i don't know why, 10 bcause i rolled a 10 total on my save against an epic artifact. 1 degree alignment change. It isn't that big a deal in most campaigns, but i travel with 4 tyranids. I expect this to happen. Brannigan, put it in the bag No/I can't Initiative I take 7 arrows, 5 great sword blows, 5 different HOLY sword blows, a 7th level cleric spell and another 7th level wizard spell or i run away and just take the arrows.
nihility 02-26-04, 05:57 PM	Originally posted by big bear The Tyranids are total bigots and religious zealots. They have absolutely no compunctions about slaying anyone whom they "percieve" to be evil. Seriously, these guys are nuts. When walking into the underdark to rescue some kidnap victims, we happened across a random party with an evil aura. They lasted 10 seconds and we looted them (i am actually carrying their swords now). All in the name of Tyr. Think republicans with swords. Originally posted by big bear Brannigan, put it in the bag No/I can't Initiative I take 7 arrows, 5 great sword blows, 5 different HOLY sword blows, a 7th level cleric spell and another 7th level wizard spell or i run away and just take the arrows. :uh-huh: So, I would say this constitutes a situation that a reasonable individual would regard as threatening. You have a significant chance of becoming the target of their ire. By the way, the Paladin certainly can pin you down as evil. From the SRD entry for Detect Evil: 1st Round: Presence or absence of evil. 2nd Round: Number of evil auras (creatures, objects, or spells) in the area and the power of the most potent evil aura present. If you are of good alignment, and the strongest evil aura’s power is overwhelming (see below), and the HD or level of the aura’s source is at least twice your character level, you are stunned for 1 round and the spell ends. 3rd Round: The power and location of each aura. If an aura is outside your line of sight, then you discern its direction but not its exact location. So, second round he probably gets stunned by the artifact's evil, but if he ever makes it to the third round, he knows. One other thing: I'm sure that swifting alignment to CE will not make you wish to attack the ones who were your companions just a few minuts ago, unless you are charmed by one of your foes. Charm spells can't make you attack your friends unless you'd do it for a friend anyway. Of course, a CE character might at that.