Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Molot 03-01-07, 04:48 AM	The description in title is all I've got from my friend. She isn't much a D&D player - she is into fantasy RPG, just not that particular system. I need two things - sketch of a build through 7 - 20 levels (with epic in mind), and justification for the fact that she appeared near the surface human village currently ruled by dragonwrought kobold (and week ago rescued by his team from goblin attack). There are rumors about ancient dracolich and necromancer who ruled the area from cavern somewhere there, but it's hardly possible anyone would know that without Knowledge (History) at a decent level... Also, it's a rather big task to give her full 0-9 spell level Cha-based casting, Use Magic Device and some dungeon crawling abilities like the Disable Device to disarm traps, Search & Spot... Whip is one feat, happily ;) Can you help me?
Devlonir 03-01-07, 08:23 AM	*cough* wrong board *cough* You will need to put this on the character optimization board.
Ryd 03-01-07, 09:33 AM	Sounds like a half-drow Beguiler 1/Sorcerer 6/loredelver x (races of destiny)
Molot 03-01-07, 12:18 PM	I need two things - sketch of a build through 7 - 20 levels (with epic in mind), and justification for the fact that she appeared near the surface human village currently ruled by dragonwrought kobold (and week ago rescued by his team from goblin attack). There are rumors about ancient dracolich and necromancer who ruled the area from cavern somewhere there, but it's hardly possible anyone would know that without Knowledge (History) at a decent level...*cough* wrong board *cough*I agree that exact build is what I could get on the Optimization Board... But the more urgently needed part belongs here. Sounds like a half-drow Beguiler 1/Sorcerer 6/loredelver x (races of destiny)Thanks for a guidance on that part.
Carwyn_Nhung 03-01-07, 08:33 PM	She's Drow, so she will generally be trying to enslave/defeat someone, but this can still be interesting: She detests her father and wants to take his place, but is so dedicated to this cause that she is actually quite ambivilant to the "lesser races". Years ago she came across a magic item of great power, from the remains of an ancient civilisation. Her father saw its power and had it destroyed. When she asked why, he said "With that trinket in your hand you became a rival to me, and now you are once again beneath my notice." So the kind of thing I'm going for here is a desire for parental affirmation, changed by her cold upbringing and Drow mentality into a desire to see him fear her. If you do go down this path, suggest that she is not too "driven" as she is an elf and has hundreds of years to find more about these things. As to her relation to others, she should be mildly offended when anyone beats her, particularly if they are from a short lived race, but her iritation generally gets channeled back into her quest, making her slightly more like a vengence driven human for a period afterward. Of course she could have a wider vindictive streak, but I find that boring: It seems more interesting for her to be an amiable and largely laid back person with occasional flashes of her secret motivation. She would be apperently laid back because she knows that if she moves about a bit and gets contacts, she will hopefully come across more artifacts and clues to the power of those people, but when people suggest she sells her artifacts or ignores scavenging for the sake of a mission she would not take it well. Obviously this is quite dark, but it just seems to me that non-humans should be a little inhuman in their motivations! This is the only one I've got for now, what do you think?
Crusher Nate 03-15-07, 07:09 PM	There's a Sorcerer PrC in Races of the Dragon that has fluff along the lines of your description. It's either Dragonheart Mage or Dracolexi. It has a little bit of draconic heritage to it IIRC, and that heritage could be what drew her to that area you described. She's got a little dragon blood in her, and maybe she was looking for clues that could lead her to that particular ancestor. As far as your request for build help goes, one problem you'll run into trying to get high level Cha-based spellcasting is the drow's +2 level adjustment. Sorcerers run a level behind Wizards, and thus get their 9th level spells at 18th level. This means if a drow Sorceress wants 9th level spells pre-epic, she can't afford to lose a single level of casting advancement.
pyro_cat 03-15-07, 07:41 PM	Sounds like a half-drow Beguiler 1/Sorcerer 6/loredelver x (races of destiny) Mechanically speaking, thats probably the worst suggestion for anything I've ever seen. I don't even think its legal. However, if you want a build, there are some things you have to keep in mind. Caster levels are very important to casting characters... the LA from being a Drow could hurt. There is a lesser Drow option somewhere that's got all the flavour and less of the painful LA. If you can use that, do so; it will make her life easier. Also, it opens up options like Rogue without taking massive hits to caster level. Tell us more about alignment & other pertinent character information, and what books you can draw inspiration from. Setting, etc.
Molot 03-16-07, 10:41 AM	If you can use that, do so; it will make her life easier. Also, it opens up options like Rogue without taking massive hits to caster level.I can and I will. She will also get Able Learner feat, so she could max UMD and needed roguish skills. DM's rule 0 to make it legal, but he don't see it overpowered in any way. Tell us more about alignment & other pertinent character information, and what books you can draw inspiration from. Setting, etc.She is Chaotic Good. Setting is Faerunian-like, basicaly yet another material plane on the shadow path ;) Different geography and politics, but similar look and feel. I should be able to look into any book mentioned provided I'll have time ;)
pyro_cat 03-16-07, 11:43 AM	Ok, well, if she gets Able Learner, she's halfway to where she wants to be. Now she just need to make sure she takes at least one level of a class that has the skills she wants. Remember, Able Learner won't increase max ranks in a cross-class skill, and for things like disable device and use magic device, you want max ranks. Rogue works for that - it'll get you millions of skillpoints, trapfinding, a touch of sneak attack and the right flavour. From there, if you want to go into spellcasting, there are a lot of options. Beguiler is a very thematic caster, but will have much less raw power than a Wizard. If charisma is going to be her primary casting stat, then there's nothing wrong with Sorceror, though again, less power than a Wizard. You're going to run into problems with a Sorc unless you do something tricky - between the LA and the level of Rogue, you won't be getting level 9 spells. There are, of course, ways to get around this, but I don't know how tweaked you want this character. It all depends on the balance of spellcasting and roguery she's looking for. You can make a fairly tricky dedicated spellcaster with one level of Rogue and the right prestige classes, but she may want more combat ability and skills. As for flavour... just don't do the Drizzt thing. Please?
Molot 03-16-07, 03:37 PM	Ok, well, if she gets Able Learner, she's halfway to where she wants to be. Now she just need to make sure she takes at least one level of a class that has the skills she wants. Remember, Able Learner won't increase max ranks in a cross-class skill, and for things like disable device and use magic device, you want max ranks.The interpretation I've seen most often (and the one our party uses) is that if you had a skill as a class skill, then max is your level + 3. Then, rogue + able learner do the trick. Rogue works for that - it'll get you millions of skillpoints, trapfinding, a touch of sneak attack and the right flavour. From there, if you want to go into spellcasting, there are a lot of options. Beguiler is a very thematic caster, but will have much less raw power than a Wizard. If charisma is going to be her primary casting stat, then there's nothing wrong with Sorceror, though again, less power than a Wizard.Looks like Sorcerer stays. You're going to run into problems with a Sorc unless you do something tricky - between the LA and the level of Rogue, you won't be getting level 9 spells. There are, of course, ways to get around this, but I don't know how tweaked you want this character.Lesser Drow variant is my idea to go around this. It all depends on the balance of spellcasting and roguery she's looking for. You can make a fairly tricky dedicated spellcaster with one level of Rogue and the right prestige classes, but she may want more combat ability and skills.Magic is her weapon of choice and bag of tricks. Roguery is meant to be the flavouring oil. More of it = better cake, but it's less important than caster level. As for flavour... just don't do the Drizzt thing. Please?I'm asking her for that repeatedly. Any suggestion for me / her, to be sure of the point?
pyro_cat 03-16-07, 04:46 PM	Looks like Sorcerer stays. Lesser Drow variant is my idea to go around this. I actually meant early-entry tricks and rapid-progression spellcasting classes (Sublime Chord, for example), but if you can get away without being cheap and powergamey... better. Does the lesser Drow have any LA at all? Remember, you need 18 sorceror levels to be getting ninth level spells, and you want to get those levels in before epic, or you're going to be having a problem with power. With one level of rogue, that means you only have one more level of play if you want to get 9th level spells pre-epic. It would be nice to be able to blow that on some prestige class that won't grant you full casting, but if the lesser Drow has an LA, you need to be even more careful. You can take a look at these links for more thoughts: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=809929 http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=239207 http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=772393 The last link, particularly, should be a good place to find a direction for this character. Some things to note, in my opinion, are the Abjurant Champion and (if you use the Metamagic Sorc from the PHBII) the Incantatrix. Both are very powerful and fairly flavour-neutral prestige classes that could compliment your friend's choice of classes. Basically, the most important thing to remember is that you should avoid losing caster levels like the plague if you want this character to be a primary arcane caster.
Crusher Nate 03-16-07, 06:30 PM	full 0-9 spell level Cha-based casting Trapfinding ability Whip proficiency Disable Device Search Spot Use Magic Device I'm seeing some more problems here. Drow females have a favored class of Cleric, so even with reduced LA she'll be looking at an experience penalty if she wants all the things you've specified, and some things in that list will likely end up being so limited in ability they won't be worthwhile to have on her character sheet. The skills listed in your friend’s wish list are all things you really have to pump a lot of ranks into if you want to be any good at them. Beguiler could get her everything there, except that her spellcasting would be based on Int (and she'd have to spend a feat on EWP: Whip), and she'd lack the raw power you mentioned later as Beguiler spells are more subtle. Bard would get her Whip proficiency, Search, Spot, and Use Magic Device, but no Trapfinding or Disable Device. She'd have Cha-based, level 0-6 spellcasting, and her spells would be flashier than the Beguiler's, but still lacking in raw power. Warlock could be good. It doesn't have spell levels, per se, but it is a Cha-based "casting" class with lots of flash and a fair bit of raw power. It’d give her some interesting options with that whip (Hideous Blow + Enervating Blast, anyone?), although she’d still have to burn a feat to get whip proficiency. No Trapfinding, Disable Device, Search or Spot, sadly, but Warlocks are the absolute masters of Use Magic Device. And they can detect magic at will. She’d be rather lacking in the skill points department; still, flavor-wise, Warlock seems like a terrific choice for the concept you outlined. Cloistered Cleric is another intriguing choice. 6 Skill points per level, all Knowledges in-class. Her spellcasting would be Wis-based, prepared, and more utility than damage, but she'd get levels 0-9. She could get Trapfinding (along with the Disable Device and Search skills it needs) through a domain (Kobold; I'll leave it up to you to explain why she'd have that domain :P ), and this would leave EWP: Whip (can be gained through a feat) and Spot (she could get that on her skill list through a feat, or by multiclassing). As an added bonus, this class would count as her favored class, so Rogue 2/CC 18 would not cause an experience penalty.
pyro_cat 03-16-07, 06:57 PM	Man... good call. I had TOTALLY forgotten about XP penalties. Ok. Well, there's still the Sublime Chord option - I feel like there must be PrCs that will give her the junk she needs in terms of skills and trapfinding without incuring XP penalties. I'll pop over to the CharOp boards (my usual haunt, in case you haven't guessed) and dig up that thread on what classes grat what abilities.
pyro_cat 03-16-07, 07:45 PM	Ok, check this thread... http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=662842 Trapfinding Ninja 1 (CV) Rogue 1 Scout 1 (CV) Spellthief 1 (CV) Nightsong Infiltrator 1, ecl 8, Complete Adventurer Beguiler 1 (PHB2) Artificer 1 (Eberron Campaign Setting) - disable traps Stoneblessed(Dwarf) 3 (RoS), ecl 5 - stone traps only Disciple of Dispater 2 (BoED) - metal only Geometer 3 (CA) - Traps based on writing only Stonedeath Assassin 1 (RoS) ecl 6 Templeraider of Olidammara 1 (CD), ecl 6 Hoardstealer 1, ecl 6, Draconomicon Kobold domain, Races of the Dragon, web enhancement Theft Gloves, soulmeld, Magic of Incarnum Hmm... ok, well, this is pretty sketchy, but if you have Unearthed Arcana you can get what you want. Maybe not by level 7, though. If you go Bard/Sublime Chord/Something that progresses spellcasting, you can take the Theft Glove soulmeld with the melding feats in Magic of Incarnum, then use the Skill Knowledge feat in Unearthed Arcana to nab disable device as a class skill. If you start play at level 7, you can DEFINATELY get all that; you're just stuck with crappy bard casting until you can get into Sublime Chord.
CrimsonDeath 03-16-07, 08:03 PM	If you have access to Dungeonscape, Complete Arcane, and Complete Mage, then you could use Rogue 2/Bard 3/Trapsmith 5/Sublime Chord 2/Unseen Seer 8. You'll get trapfinding from Rogue, whip proficiency from Bard, and level 9 charisma-based arcane spells from Sublime Chord. You'll need an Intelligence of at least 13 for the level 3 Trapfinder spells, though (to qualify for Sublime Chord without seventh-level Bard casting). Plus you won't take multiclassing XP penalties (all but Rogue and Bard, which are only 1 level apart, are prestiege classes, so the rest don't count). BAB is only +13, but it doesn't sound like your friend will mind. This assumes you'll have either the Lesser Drow or LA buyoff; otherwise, the Chord only gets up to 8th-level spells. If you have Dungeonscape and Complete Arcane but not Complete Mage, you can just take Sublime Chord all the way to 10 (or go into another full-casting prestiege class, or some combination of front-loaded partial-casting classes). Assuming you take the simple route of Chord 10, that'll drop your BAB down to +11, still enough for your third iterative in Epic. As for why she's in this human village... She could be an exile, or an orphan, or a POW, or a (former, current, or escaped) slave, or the daughter of any of the above. Sorry, I'm a bit better at crunch than fluff unless I'm personally involved in the campaign.
pyro_cat 03-16-07, 09:49 PM	I like that a lot, I'm just worried that there are going to be some pretty weak levels for the build just as she's entering play... by level 7 you've got the basics down, but your next few levels could be a little rough. It's probably not optimal to take bard all the way through either, but maybe sticking would bard spellcasting would be more playable at that level, Trapsmith's acellerated casting list regardless.
CrimsonDeath 03-17-07, 04:45 AM	The only other build I can think of that would avoid multiclassing XP penalties would be (trapfinding class) 3/Bard 4/Lyric Thaumaturge 3, then go into Sublime Chord, but you'd have to spend a feat on Extra Music to meet the bardic music 5/day prerequisite... Unless there's a cleric domain that grants trapfinding?
Molot 03-17-07, 08:30 AM	Thank you all. It's been a while since I was able to look here. Prepared casters are out of consideration for her... sadly. Unless it's just for domain. I'm a kobold in the party, Sorcerer devoted to Bahamut, so the domain could be quite easily justified. What book is it in? Lesser Drow does not have LA. It's described here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040215a&page=2 Sadly, Deepwyrm Drow variant (that could be applied to lesser drow as well) does not change favourite class of the character. Dragon blood in her seems to be a must have anyway, to justify the place she is found in. CrimsonDeath (trapfinding class) 3/Bard 4/Lyric Thaumaturge 3/Sublime Chord Looks nice at the end, but require hard discipline with progression and at the first session she'd be Rogue3 / Bard4. pyro_cat seems right about weak levels... She's kinda witch in real life, so she wouldn't be too happy at the game table with that character. Especially between my kobold and necrodruid elf creating their own magic inferno in the battlefield. Note - DM's style requires both subtlety and heavy fighting, but it seems that the later is needed more often. From your suggestions this comes out: Dragonblood Cleric (Kobold domain) Sorcerer - some levels PrC Is there a domain that grants UMD?.. It would make all building easier. She'd have all nice things from Cleric and almost full casting from sorcerer. That makes some problem with my kobold ;) Yet another draconic moral authority in the party, tee hee :D It'd be either love, lust or hate. Or maybe all three :D
CrimsonDeath 03-17-07, 01:54 PM	I'm already almost an hour late for my Aberrant game (without even factoring in travel time), so I can't stay long. I'll suggest looking through the domains in the Spell Compendium for one with UMD. If you don't find one there, keep in mind that a single level of Cleric lets you use wands and staves of pretty much any Cleric spell, so you'll only be missing out on Druid/Ranger and non-Cleric Paladin spells. And if she's really dead-set against preparing spells, you could see if she can use the spontaneous cleric variant from Unearthed Arcana.
Molot 03-17-07, 02:34 PM	Sadly I don't own Spell Compendium... I need to count on you or lend it from one man... It's easier to just write down exactly what I need than to search, anyway.
CrimsonDeath 03-17-07, 11:40 PM	Nothing in the Spell Compendium, but the granted power of the Kobold domain (from a web enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) for Races of the Dragon) is worded exactly like the rogue's Trapfinding ability, plus the addition of Search and Disable Device to your class skill list. Unfortunately, the domain is only listed as being available to worshippers of Kurtulmak, the patron deity of kobolds (who is very likely only to accept kobolds as clerics)... If you have access to Magic of Incarnum, you could take the feats Shape Soulmeld (Theft Gloves) and Open Least Chakra (Hands), because the Hand Chakra bind for Thief Gloves also grants trapfinding. (In addition, the soulmeld itself gives you +2 Insight to Disble Device, Open Lock, and Sleight of Hand, plus letting you make those checks untrained, and each point of essentia invested in the soulmeld increases the bonus a further +2.) You need 13 Con for Shape Soulmeld, and you need that plus character level 6 for Open Least Chakra. That method doesn't take any character levels but eats two feats.
pyro_cat 03-18-07, 01:25 PM	UMD, unfortunately, seems to only be avaliable as a feat called Apprentice in the DMG II, which I believe has to be taken at first level. If that's cool, then you could take Apprentice at level one, Shape Soulmeld at level 6. Still don't know how to get disable device, but with a high enough Int score, the essentia investment in Theft Gloves, cross class ranks and maybe a Skill Focus feat or something, you could get it up to a decent level. Items could help too. Either way, though, your best bet is to talk to the DM about dumb favoured class rules. I personally think those rules are a dumb way of reinforcing uneccesary race steriotypes, but thats just me. If you could go Rogue 1/Sorc/PrC, and take Able Learner, all your problems are solved. Quite easily.
Molot 03-18-07, 02:42 PM	If you could go Rogue 1/Sorc/PrC, and take Able Learner, all your problems are solved. Quite easily.That's what I hope to do... Thanks for other suggestions. About the multiclass rules - OK, I understand it was to prevent munchkin-like play. But in situation where it encourages that kind of builds, it's nonsense. At least for me. I hope DM will agree..
JulesCARV 03-18-07, 03:45 PM	By the rules, Drow are not eligible for the Able Learner feat, which is restricted to humans, changelings, and doppelgangers, although if Molot wants to rule that drow can get it too, that's fine.
CrimsonDeath 03-19-07, 03:00 AM	By the rules, Drow are not eligible for the Able Learner feat, which is restricted to humans, changelings, and doppelgangers, although if Molot wants to rule that drow can get it too, that's fine. He already cleared it with the DM.
Molot 03-19-07, 03:59 PM	He already cleared it with the DM.Yep, I did. If the same can be build in a much more complicated manner, and get more raw power, but requires flavourless combinations and tricks, it's not a way it should be. For fun and simplicity some rules can be broken, especially if it does not lead to overpowered characters. it worked to allow her to take Able Learner. I hope it'll justify Rogue1 without XP hit too.
pyro_cat 03-19-07, 05:48 PM	I'm of the school of thought that favoured class rules have their place in game balance, but all races should be treated as humans in such concerns. Anything else seems to be pidgeonholing races into unreasonable steriotypes. There's no reason why a player's creative roleplaying should be constricted by the fact that neither rogue nor sorceror happen to be a favoured class of the race he wants to play. Crunch shouldn't replace fluff, so to speak.