Post/Author/DateTime	Post
aberrant80 03-02-05, 03:42 AM	I'm looking for some alignment and motivations pointers. Maybe even some background plugs. I'm planning a rogue character who will be taking levels in fighter and assassin. That sort of automatically makes him evil, unless I bend the rules. I'm considering a tiefling. But I sort of prefer him to be neutral, rather than evil. Basically, this character would've been orphaned at youth, probably watching his mother (a prostitude) get slaughtered by a customer (yes, I know, cliched. feel free to offer suggestions or plugs on this part too). Growing up scrounging on the streets made him realise that one's wits are critical for survival. He got adopted into the local (a large city) powerful thieves' guild when he was noticed by prominent members. One of the first things he learned was that emotions can be deadly, as betrayal and in-fighting is commonplace within the guild (yes, another cliche, I know. working on it). Given his detached nature, intelligence, and speed, he turned out to be a very good spy and assassin. The guild uses him extensively, and he grew rather infamous. Oh boy, it's starting to sound like Artemis Entreri. Hmm... how can I differentiate from that fella? I don't want my character to be wholly evil. He kills because it's part of the contract. He doesn't like the killing, but he doesn't mind it either. It's part of the job. Does that sound neutral? If I were to throw in a reputation for not failing or reneging on agreed contracts, would that make him lawful as well? Does a lawful neutral assassin/spy seem weird?
Vharuck 03-02-05, 02:24 PM	Sorry, killing people solely for money is still evil. A neautral person won't endanger themselves to stop as assassin, but also won't become the assassin. Maybe he has a pet? Like a rat or a cat? Maybe he is friends with at least one person in the guild? What is he saving up his money to buy? Where does he live? What does he do in free time? Any love ineterests? Is there a certain prostitute he goes to a lot, for usual business and also talking? Flesh the guy out. He has dreams, ideals, and thoughts too. And though he hides emotions, they still exist.
Twilly 03-02-05, 02:41 PM	You could start with his perspectives on killing people. An assasin might not see killing as an act of evil. An assassin only makes sure that the victim is going to meet his/her god a little earlier. Destroying one's soul that is evil, because that soul will never be able to reach the afterlife, but just killing someone is not so bad if you think about it (from a assassin's point of view). Earthly life is hard and unfair, the afterlife is a reward that can give. He might even take care off relatives that are left behind. Giving money monthly if he killed the bread-winner. Taking care of children of whom he has killed the parents. He might even light a candle in church for the person he is going to kill. That his patron deity may forgive all of the victim's sins. I hope this will give you some new ideas...
Rowan_Whispercloak 03-04-05, 07:08 AM	I played an assassin (rog 3/Ranger 2/Assassin 1 starting) once in a ravenloft game (suicidal I know, but the DM wouldn't let me play a shadowdancer so.) He was a sithcan elf (normal elf stat culture and hair/eye color being the only difference from standard DND elf). He was the child of a teamster for an elven merchant. His father was killed on a business trip leaving his mother, sister and himself without means to suport themselves. He did the general street urchen thing (where the rogue level came from) to try to support his family until his sister and mother died of fever and he couldn't get them help. That day he vowed to make the mechant pay. So he when to work for the merchant as a helper for the elderly groundskeeper (where the ranger levels came from) after the groundskeeper died my character killed the merchant and all the servants, but couldn't bring himself to kill the merchant young daughter (who reminded him of his sister) so he left taking her with him and raising her the best he could while try to escape justice. Long story short he was Lawful Evil eventually he became lawful neutral Lawful Evil is the safest alignment for an evil character in a party. He keeps his word and know the value of team work.
Fox Lee 03-04-05, 05:49 PM	I'm looking for some alignment and motivations pointers. Maybe even some background plugs. I'm planning a rogue character who will be taking levels in fighter and assassin. That sort of automatically makes him evil, unless I bend the rules. I'm considering a tiefling. But I sort of prefer him to be neutral, rather than evil. I think that such a thig is do-able, depending on the circumstance. Lawful Neutral assassins, who kill because of debt or obligation instead of self-interest, have been some of my favourite characters. Basically, this character would've been orphaned at youth, probably watching his mother (a prostitude) get slaughtered by a customer (yes, I know, cliched. feel free to offer suggestions or plugs on this part too). Make it his father :D Seriously, I don't think that's ever been done before. And it would also further his detached nature if his mother had dumped him on a hapless significant other and scarpered as soon as he was born. Growing up scrounging on the streets made him realise that one's wits are critical for survival. He got adopted into the local (a large city) powerful thieves' guild when he was noticed by prominent members. One of the first things he learned was that emotions can be deadly, as betrayal and in-fighting is commonplace within the guild (yes, another cliche, I know. working on it). Make an exception to that rule. Either a personal ideal which he still believes in with great fervour (maybe even religion - that could be fun), or a powerful person within the guild who seems to be the antithesis of the "no emotions" idea, yet is still successful. Given his detached nature, intelligence, and speed, he turned out to be a very good spy and assassin. The guild uses him extensively, and he grew rather infamous. Oh boy, it's starting to sound like Artemis Entreri. Hmm... how can I differentiate from that fella? I don't want my character to be wholly evil. He kills because it's part of the contract. He doesn't like the killing, but he doesn't mind it either. It's part of the job. Does that sound neutral? If I were to throw in a reputation for not failing or reneging on agreed contracts, would that make him lawful as well? Does a lawful neutral assassin/spy seem weird? While a LN assassin/spy sounds not weird and actually very cool to me, I don't think that you could get away with this guy - as he currently stands - being non-evil. Regardless of how thoroughly he holds to a contract (which does indeed push him toward Lawful - with the current description, I would say LE), he's still killing possibly-innocent people to further his own ends. To push for Neutral, I think you would have to further justify why he is willing to kill people, expanding it beyond just a desire to further his own ends. Does he discriminate/refuse to kill innocents? Does he seek out contracts on people who are clearly scum anyways? Is he trying to take over the Thieves' Guild to stop the kind of thing that happened to his mother (or whoever)? Might he be a sort of shadowy antihero - a person who, for the sake of the Greater Good, is willing to perform acts which are usually "evil"? Heh, now I'm reminding myself of Rokugan's Scorpion clan... man are they fun to play ^___^ Anyways, I'd suggest thinking about that kind of stff if you wanna shoot for LN. Good luck ^^
shultz 03-04-05, 09:06 PM	While a LN assassin/spy sounds not weird and actually very cool to me, I don't think that you could get away with this guy - as he currently stands - being non-evil. Regardless of how thoroughly he holds to a contract (which does indeed push him toward Lawful - with the current description, I would say LE), he's still killing possibly-innocent people to further his own ends. You can have a non-evil assassin. The best example there is is James Bond. He is an agent who works for British secret service. He is ordered/contracted by M to eliminate threats to the civilized world that cannot be removed through ordinary means without causing great strife to the countries involved. He is definitely not evil. For example: A ruthless wizard is the ruler of a large city and rules with an iron hand. He constantly trafficks in slavery, discriminates against non-humans, tortures citizens who do not conform to his laws, invades outlying villages for slave labor and expanding his kingdom, and allows bandits and thieves to pillage the countryside as long as he is paid a tithe. In the neighboring counties, several benevolent rulers who look to spread peace and cooperation amongst races realize this wizard will destabilize the entire area unless he is removed. Ordinarily the only way to remove such a ruler would be for the benevolent rulers to join armies and siege the city. However this will no doubt cause much strife for their citizens as well as put the innocent citizens under the wizard in peril. Many lives will be lost, much property and land will be razed and the economy will suffer.Talking it over the benevolent rulers decide to send a small team (or even one person) to eliminate the wizard. That way the same objective can be reached with the damage to innocents being kept to a minimum. Remember it's not the act of hiring or doing an assassination that constitutes evil, it's the motive of why you are doing it.
Vharuck 03-05-05, 02:35 AM	True, but he's not a special freedom-fighter or evil-basher. He's a guy who kills in an assassin's/thief's guild because he's good at it. That's pretty evil to me. However, evil does not mean you can't travel with a good party. LE people still have personal codes and honor. The chance they'd attack an ally out of nowhere is pretty slim.
shultz 03-05-05, 05:02 PM	True, but he's not a special freedom-fighter or evil-basher. He's a guy who kills in an assassin's/thief's guild because he's good at it. That's pretty evil to me. However, evil does not mean you can't travel with a good party. LE people still have personal codes and honor. The chance they'd attack an ally out of nowhere is pretty slim. But how is he evil? It's true Bond gets paid by the government to eliminate people, but money is not the driving force for him. If that were the case any target he went after would just pay him more to have his skills working for their side as well as saving themselves. He may like what the money can get for him; the women, fancy cars, exotic trips and special equipment, but in the end he does it because it's for the greater good for the world. That would make him good at best and neutral at worst.
Vharuck 03-06-05, 01:42 AM	But how is he evil? It's true Bond gets paid by the government to eliminate people, but money is not the driving force for him. If that were the case any target he went after would just pay him more to have his skills working for their side as well as saving themselves. He may like what the money can get for him; the women, fancy cars, exotic trips and special equipment, but in the end he does it because it's for the greater good for the world. That would make him good at best and neutral at worst. Once again: he is an assassin employed to a guild of thieves. He is not killing for the greater good. He is killing because some seedy underworld boss points his finger and says, "Make him gone."
shultz 03-06-05, 09:36 AM	Once again: he is an assassin employed to a guild of thieves. He is not killing for the greater good. He is killing because some seedy underworld boss points his finger and says, "Make him gone." Ha ha ha ha! I think you are confusing british secret servive with SPECTRE. Here is a perfect example of two groups who use assassins for different reasons. One is the BSS who uses Bond to eliminate threats to the free world. Obviously for the greater good. The other is SPECTRE who uses various assassins to eliminate threats to their schemes to obtain power, money or both. Obviously for the greater evil.
Vharuck 03-07-05, 11:22 AM	Ha ha ha ha! I think you are confusing british secret servive with SPECTRE. Here is a perfect example of two groups who use assassins for different reasons. One is the BSS who uses Bond to eliminate threats to the free world. Obviously for the greater good. The other is SPECTRE who uses various assassins to eliminate threats to their schemes to obtain power, money or both. Obviously for the greater evil. So wait, are you agreeing with me? Because it seems like you are. I'm lost! :P
shultz 03-07-05, 04:32 PM	So wait, are you agreeing with me? Because it seems like you are. I'm lost! :P No I'm not agreeing with you. Your point was that "He's a guy who kills in an assassin's/thief's guild because he's good at it. That's pretty evil to me." Bond is not evil. He pre-emptively kills people who seek power or wealth through various plans that ultimately will cause untold deaths among innocents. Bond never sacrifices people to achieve his goal. He doesn't do it for the money or the fame. He does it for his country and the free world. He is working for the greater good. Another example is the Punisher from marvel comics. He is an assassin who hunts and kills criminals yet goes to great lengths to make sure an innocent is never harmed through his actions. He doesn't kill for money or power or fame. Just revenge and hate. He too is working for the greater good. Now I'm not saying that their actions are automatically justifiable. The Punisher is basically a criminal himself since he decides his method works better then the court system, and even though Bond is licensed to kill for the government he (and the government) are bascially taking a gamble that killing the head of an organization will bring it down. The same is true of the assassin class. The one in the DMs guide is just an example of one kind of assassin. The one people usually think of, that is a person who has no morals and kills for money and/or pleasure. Being an assassin does not automatically mean the person is evil. A person can seek out people and kill people for any number of reasons as I stated earlier. It is the motive of why the person kills for a living that will define his moral compass not the profession.
Fox Lee 03-07-05, 09:48 PM	You can have a non-evil assassin. Remember it's not the act of hiring or doing an assassination that constitutes evil, it's the motive of why you are doing it. Dude, that's exactly what I said in my post. Look back at it ^^; What I was saying was that they were possible, but the character as planned was not one. After all, James Bond was not motivated primarily by money (last I knew).
shultz 03-07-05, 10:04 PM	Dude, that's exactly what I said in my post. Look back at it ^^; What I was saying was that they were possible, but the character as planned was not one. After all, James Bond was not motivated primarily by money (last I knew). Exactly. The point is not to forget, but to remember why.
Fox Lee 03-08-05, 07:57 PM	Exactly. The point is not to forget, but to remember why. Uh, what? Did you post for no reason other than to reiterate my point, while at the same time apparently trying to contradict it?
Ivarrius 03-08-05, 09:16 PM	This is getting ridiculous. Bond doesn't work as an example, he is not an assassin, though he is liscensed to kill should he need to. He is charged with protection of justice/peace and civility. An assassin as noted by the initial poster is someone who is not killing for the greater good, and would be incarcerated or killed by the government and law enforcement of the city in which he is killing, unless of course, he killed someone who was widely regarded as evil, but even then, his motivations are the cornerstone of the killing, not the alignment of the person killed.
shultz 03-09-05, 05:12 PM	Uh, what? Did you post for no reason other than to reiterate my point, while at the same time apparently trying to contradict it? Sorry. Just gibberish on my part. I didn't read your entire post and came to the wrong conclusion about your point. :embarrass
shultz 03-09-05, 05:34 PM	This is getting ridiculous. Bond doesn't work as an example, he is not an assassin, though he is liscensed to kill should he need to. He is charged with protection of justice/peace and civility. An assassin as noted by the initial poster is someone who is not killing for the greater good, and would be incarcerated or killed by the government and law enforcement of the city in which he is killing, unless of course, he killed someone who was widely regarded as evil, but even then, his motivations are the cornerstone of the killing, not the alignment of the person killed. The definition of assassinate is:"to murder by sudden or secret attack." By this definition your standard adventurer is an assassin. Usual adventures have a village, town, city, clergy, wizard, scholar, etc hire a group of adventurers to eliminate some threat that will wreak havoc upon innocent people. If that threat happens to be a band of orcs holed up inside an abandoned mine, are you as the adventurer going to openly announce yourself to the orcs? No. You are going to sneak in and eliminate them as quickly as you can before they can muster up a defense. You are assassinating them. Bond is not an assassin per the DM's guide (that is kills for money/pleasure), but he does assassinate people.
Vharuck 03-10-05, 02:22 PM	Ok, question one: is the character the OP asked about something like James Bond? No. This assassin is not serving his country, only killing when needed, and taking out threats to the world. This assassin serves a thief's guild (which almost always denotes an evil organization), kills when paid enough, and takes out people he may not even know and people who may be protecting the world (like most who oppose evil guilds do). He is not James Bond. Yes, you can assassinate and be LN, but in this case the guy is LE. I am not saying that it is impossible for an assassin to not be evil, but doing it for money and an evil organization is evil.
shultz 03-10-05, 04:38 PM	Ok, question one: is the character the OP asked about something like James Bond? No. This assassin is not serving his country, only killing when needed, and taking out threats to the world. This assassin serves a thief's guild (which almost always denotes an evil organization), kills when paid enough, and takes out people he may not even know and people who may be protecting the world (like most who oppose evil guilds do). He is not James Bond. Yes, you can assassinate and be LN, but in this case the guy is LE. I am not saying that it is impossible for an assassin to not be evil, but doing it for money and an evil organization is evil. There! He is asking how he can make his character more then the commom cliche straight evil assassin. He wanted to know if it was possible to be an assassin and still be neutral or good. Yes it is. One example given was James Bond who is PAID TO KILL when needed. He didn't say the organization he worked for was strictly evil or that he would always work for the money. There back!!
Vharuck 03-10-05, 05:31 PM	I apologize, I just get caught up with some discussions. And the anonymity of the boards does partially remove my sense of etiquette in a discussion. I deleted the "There!" because looking back, that was pretty much me being an :censored:-hole. My argument so far has been based solely on the example provided by the OP. In my view, the character he described is a cold and calculating LE, because he is willing to resort to murder as a form of payment. I realize that he does not kill for the sake of killing, but killing for personal benefit without justification or deservance on the part of the victim is, IMO, evil. I am not saying that he can not change this guy to be LE. Maybe the guild adopted him as an informant, which is not unethical. Just a little street urchin standing in the right place at the right time and hearing the right things. Then, as he grew older and they realized he had the skills for a spy, they sent him to infiltrate and extract knowledge. Again, not too evil. Nothing stolen, nobody hurt (at least by him), just information being passed along. When they saw he had a knack for getting near important people unnoticed, they offered him to be an assassin. Disliking murder, he refused. The answer to his refusal was a punch to the face, a knife to the throat, and an offer "he couln't refuse." Now he does work as an assassin, caught between two courses and changing between them as fit to soothe his morals: one being that the target deserves his fate (why else would there be a hit out on him?), and the other is that he tries to help the target fake his murder and flee. However, as you have described, I as a DM would call your character LE.
Zerolight 03-11-05, 03:19 AM	Originally Posted by DBoot Also, about the resurrection thing... Thinuan Steel works in a dead magic zone. And you could always sell the trapped soul to devils.Live comfortably in this world and the next. After all, devils can't get their hands on uncurrupted Paladin souls like you can. You're Evil, maybe even Vile, granted, but you're a business man (or woman) first and foremost. Act like it. __________________ "And that's why you'll enter heaven hailed as a hero. And why I'll enter hell in much the same manner. Assuming of course someone doesn't place a contract on you. For now, I'll enjoy my economic gains, and you can clean up after your horse. Ciao!" -Soul Stealing Assassin to a Paladin Dboot posted this in a thread I started about assassins in the Char Op board Assassin the PrC vs Assassin the profession. Now thats quite the professional statment. Its allso coming form his char who is a very experenced assassin. Cold and detached works great for starting assassins (LE). If your not evil why are you a assassin and not a vigilanty or bloodhound, or if you are good why not a shadowbane inquisitor (which would work much better against all the undead you will probally fight). As you progress, the reflection on what you do makes you wholly evil (LE or Vile), or more repenent (LN or even LG). If you stay detached after you've seen the guys children cry and his friends call out for vengence then yep your pretty far evil. If you snicker about it you may even be vile. If you move to make amends for the pain you have caused stop taking contracts out on good people then yer moving towards nuetral. Avoiding killing all but the turly evil and you could even be good. My suggestion for your Charecter is LE. He's had a hard life and is doing what he has been taught. Let your experience move you towards whatever other alignment you feel work. (WoW what a thought to have game xp count for more then just more hit points). There is no penalty for ex-assassin besides maybe your guild looking to enforce a more perminent retirment. Your DM might even let you continue progressing as an Asssassin if your story shows that you should. By the way Drizzt's father (Zafnafin? sp?)was a assassin for the Du'rden matron what was his align? LN?