braking stereotypes in Alignment [Archive] - Wizards Community

braking stereotypes in Alignment [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
El Ninja Amarillo
08-27-03, 11:04 PM We've all seen it, some of us more than others. I for one consider the D&D alignments to be rather limited. The main problem comming out of this is that most alinments tend to "typecast" PC/NPCs.

I recently tried to prove that its possible to go further than "The Paladins who help old people cross the street" or the "Incurable Ranger who fights the system."

For instance, a CG PC doesn't have to go against the law on every single occasion. He won't get any sleepless nights if he turns a criminal to the authorities instead of killing him on the spot. If it serves his interests to turn him in, he'll do so.

I writting this because in more than one ocasion, we've had differences regarding what can and what can't a PC do according to his/her Alignment.

From your thoughts, how much can a certain alignment allow a PC to act without falling out of Character?
Edymnion
08-28-03, 12:13 AM Well, first up, I think you're being overly restrictive thinking that your alignment dictates your actions when its the other way around. You pick how your character sees the world, then pick the most suitable alignment. Alignment isn't a straightjacket, its just a description.

Obviously Lawful Good's main mascot is Superman. Truth, Honor, and the American Way. However, a very good discussion on the old boards put up a rather good argument that Batman was also Lawful Good, in that he followed his own highly rigorous set of rules and morals. Batman is very selfless, puts the good of others ahead of his own good, and doesn't stoop to the selfish methods of criminals, all of which are Lawful Good qualities. In fact, Batman seems to go right along with why a Monk has to be lawful, and in fact Bruce Wayne does have a very monk-ish mindset in regards to his training and his beliefs.

Lawful does not mean you follow every rule of the land, and Chaotic doesn't mean you break every law of the land. Good people can kill out of vengeance or spite and not become evil, and Evil people can help the needy without being good.

Like I said before, Alignment isn't a straightjacket of what you can and cannot do all of the time, it is simply a description of your overall outlook on life. Play your character however you want and then just pick the alignment that has the best fit.
pl
08-28-03, 03:49 AM The real problem arises when you have a class with an alignment restriction (cleric, monk, barbarian...). I recently caused a whole campaign to be aborted because I refused to continue playing my character when I wasn't allowed to act as I wanted to (I couldn't change my alignment due to class restrictions.)

I now only play characters without any such restrictions.
Trydan
08-28-03, 04:31 AM In our game we have a warning system for those whom the DM thinks are not acting true to their alignment. For example, our CG rogue started stealing from other party members. The DM (who was me at the time) passed him a note saying that if it happens again, he'll be regarded as CN, and if again then CE.

That way the player gets away with it once, and then suffers the consequences. In the case of other classes, the warning comes just as the action is about to happen. As a hypothetical example, if the LG paladin goes to steal from the others members of the party, the DM would warn - "as you go to lift the jewel, your conscience twinges... do you really want to steal that jewel, which goes against all the teachings of your code of honour?"
These sorts of things are usually for DMs to decide. But how important it is depends a lot on the sort of game. Where every sword is alignment-based, spells of protection from good/evil/chaos/law abound and other such things, then alignment is fairly well quantised. However, in some campaigns it is a blur, and it is filled in on the character sheet only to fill in a blank box.
El Ninja Amarillo
08-28-03, 01:02 PM Originally posted by Edymnion
Well, first up, I think you're being overly restrictive thinking that your alignment dictates your actions when its the other way around. You pick how your character sees the world, then pick the most suitable alignment. Alignment isn't a straightjacket, its just a description.

Maybe I didn't made my point clear. I don't consider an alignment as a straight jacket at all. Actually, I consider there are several way to be a LG PC (for instance), without all of them being Paladin-like personas. The thing is, several people I've encountered tend to believe that a certain alignments make it impossible to act differently. The reason I started this thread was actually to prove this wrong by asking other useres to set an example of a "not-so-obvious" course of action within an alignment but that doesn't involve conterdiction.

For instance, not all LG characters have to be merciful.

Obviously Lawful Good's main mascot is Superman. Truth, Honor, and the American Way. However, a very good discussion on the old boards put up a rather good argument that Batman was also Lawful Good, in that he followed his own highly rigorous set of rules and morals. Batman is very selfless, puts the good of others ahead of his own good, and doesn't stoop to the selfish methods of criminals, all of which are Lawful Good qualities. In fact, Batman seems to go right along with why a Monk has to be lawful, and in fact Bruce Wayne does have a very monk-ish mindset in regards to his training and his beliefs.

I do remember that thread. It started out really good actually. That is, until the discussion switched to whether Batman was good for suporting a western capitalist system based on the explotation of Third World countries. The conversation just got stuck there.
I also remember that the most popular view was setting Batman in the NG alignment given that he works "outside" the law to some degree. But still, you're right about his personal discipline being similar to those of a monk.

Lawful does not mean you follow every rule of the land, and Chaotic doesn't mean you break every law of the land. Good people can kill out of vengeance or spite and not become evil, and Evil people can help the needy without being good.

Like I said before, Alignment isn't a straightjacket of what you can and cannot do all of the time, it is simply a description of your overall outlook on life. Play your character however you want and then just pick the alignment that has the best fit.

I agree. Here's a personal example:
I have a CG Ninja character. As you might guess, due to his profession (and alignment) he tends to work "outside the law". Still, he hangs around with a group of mostly Lawful PC (they obviously don't know what his job consists of), beacuse this serves a purpose to him. He obviously disagrees with certain ways of doing things (especially with the local samurai) but rarely says anything about it. When my ninja "does his thing" he makes sure he's not been watched. He takes extra precautions in order to be subtle.

Another CG character in the same party is quite different. More pational, she speaks her mind freely, not really thinking of the consequences this might bring or what the rest of the party might think of her. Each time she "does her thing" it causes fritctions between the samurai and her.

These are two good examples (IMO) of a CG PC. Both different, yet they have the same alignment.
ClamsHaveFeeling
08-28-03, 01:45 PM Well, yes, no one ever said that 2 CG characters ever had to act the same way.

Alignment doesn't necessarily dictate actions.

I'd say that Batman was LG, not NG. Sure, he worked towards the good of everyone (and good in general) but he did work with the police force(Com. Gordan) and had pretty close ties to the cops. I'd say Spiderman is a good example of NG, because he sometimes had to make decisions that might've been outside the law, but in the end he was working for the good of everyone.
Xysma
08-28-03, 01:58 PM In our group we are adamant about not interfering with the autonomy of the player's characters. Do whatever you want, it is up to the DM to determine whether you are playing your character based on your concept and history not your alignment. If it is a natural progression based on the choices made in the game for your Chaotic Neutral Human Fighter to wind up being a Lawful Good Paladin of Clangeddin Silverbeard, so be it. Don't be restricted by your alignment, only be restricted by your character concept.
Edymnion
08-28-03, 05:26 PM Originally posted by Trydan
The DM (who was me at the time) passed him a note saying that if it happens again, he'll be regarded as CN, and if again then CE. Well, thats another part of Alignment that it seems most people overlook. A single action can NEVER alter your alignment short of magic being involved. A LG character can snap, and murder an entire villiage, and not change alignment. He would have to feel terrible about it afterwards, and do a lot of soul searching and the like, but just the act itself wouldn't change his alignment.

Alignment is your general outlook on life. Only broad trends can change your alignment. Murdering an orc baby once doesn't mean squat to your alignment. Murdering orc babies a couple times raises the question, but doesn't bring about any action towards alignment. When you start murdering orc babies on general principle, thats when you get alignment changes.

Just stealing from the party would drop you to Chaotic Neutral at most, its not enough for chaotic evil. He's not CdG'ing the party in their sleep, after all.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
El Ninja Amarillo 08-27-03, 11:04 PM	We've all seen it, some of us more than others. I for one consider the D&D alignments to be rather limited. The main problem comming out of this is that most alinments tend to "typecast" PC/NPCs. I recently tried to prove that its possible to go further than "The Paladins who help old people cross the street" or the "Incurable Ranger who fights the system." For instance, a CG PC doesn't have to go against the law on every single occasion. He won't get any sleepless nights if he turns a criminal to the authorities instead of killing him on the spot. If it serves his interests to turn him in, he'll do so. I writting this because in more than one ocasion, we've had differences regarding what can and what can't a PC do according to his/her Alignment. From your thoughts, how much can a certain alignment allow a PC to act without falling out of Character?
Edymnion 08-28-03, 12:13 AM	Well, first up, I think you're being overly restrictive thinking that your alignment dictates your actions when its the other way around. You pick how your character sees the world, then pick the most suitable alignment. Alignment isn't a straightjacket, its just a description. Obviously Lawful Good's main mascot is Superman. Truth, Honor, and the American Way. However, a very good discussion on the old boards put up a rather good argument that Batman was also Lawful Good, in that he followed his own highly rigorous set of rules and morals. Batman is very selfless, puts the good of others ahead of his own good, and doesn't stoop to the selfish methods of criminals, all of which are Lawful Good qualities. In fact, Batman seems to go right along with why a Monk has to be lawful, and in fact Bruce Wayne does have a very monk-ish mindset in regards to his training and his beliefs. Lawful does not mean you follow every rule of the land, and Chaotic doesn't mean you break every law of the land. Good people can kill out of vengeance or spite and not become evil, and Evil people can help the needy without being good. Like I said before, Alignment isn't a straightjacket of what you can and cannot do all of the time, it is simply a description of your overall outlook on life. Play your character however you want and then just pick the alignment that has the best fit.
pl 08-28-03, 03:49 AM	The real problem arises when you have a class with an alignment restriction (cleric, monk, barbarian...). I recently caused a whole campaign to be aborted because I refused to continue playing my character when I wasn't allowed to act as I wanted to (I couldn't change my alignment due to class restrictions.) I now only play characters without any such restrictions.
Trydan 08-28-03, 04:31 AM	In our game we have a warning system for those whom the DM thinks are not acting true to their alignment. For example, our CG rogue started stealing from other party members. The DM (who was me at the time) passed him a note saying that if it happens again, he'll be regarded as CN, and if again then CE. That way the player gets away with it once, and then suffers the consequences. In the case of other classes, the warning comes just as the action is about to happen. As a hypothetical example, if the LG paladin goes to steal from the others members of the party, the DM would warn - "as you go to lift the jewel, your conscience twinges... do you really want to steal that jewel, which goes against all the teachings of your code of honour?" These sorts of things are usually for DMs to decide. But how important it is depends a lot on the sort of game. Where every sword is alignment-based, spells of protection from good/evil/chaos/law abound and other such things, then alignment is fairly well quantised. However, in some campaigns it is a blur, and it is filled in on the character sheet only to fill in a blank box.
El Ninja Amarillo 08-28-03, 01:02 PM	Originally posted by Edymnion Well, first up, I think you're being overly restrictive thinking that your alignment dictates your actions when its the other way around. You pick how your character sees the world, then pick the most suitable alignment. Alignment isn't a straightjacket, its just a description. Maybe I didn't made my point clear. I don't consider an alignment as a straight jacket at all. Actually, I consider there are several way to be a LG PC (for instance), without all of them being Paladin-like personas. The thing is, several people I've encountered tend to believe that a certain alignments make it impossible to act differently. The reason I started this thread was actually to prove this wrong by asking other useres to set an example of a "not-so-obvious" course of action within an alignment but that doesn't involve conterdiction. For instance, not all LG characters have to be merciful. Obviously Lawful Good's main mascot is Superman. Truth, Honor, and the American Way. However, a very good discussion on the old boards put up a rather good argument that Batman was also Lawful Good, in that he followed his own highly rigorous set of rules and morals. Batman is very selfless, puts the good of others ahead of his own good, and doesn't stoop to the selfish methods of criminals, all of which are Lawful Good qualities. In fact, Batman seems to go right along with why a Monk has to be lawful, and in fact Bruce Wayne does have a very monk-ish mindset in regards to his training and his beliefs. I do remember that thread. It started out really good actually. That is, until the discussion switched to whether Batman was good for suporting a western capitalist system based on the explotation of Third World countries. The conversation just got stuck there. I also remember that the most popular view was setting Batman in the NG alignment given that he works "outside" the law to some degree. But still, you're right about his personal discipline being similar to those of a monk. Lawful does not mean you follow every rule of the land, and Chaotic doesn't mean you break every law of the land. Good people can kill out of vengeance or spite and not become evil, and Evil people can help the needy without being good. Like I said before, Alignment isn't a straightjacket of what you can and cannot do all of the time, it is simply a description of your overall outlook on life. Play your character however you want and then just pick the alignment that has the best fit. I agree. Here's a personal example: I have a CG Ninja character. As you might guess, due to his profession (and alignment) he tends to work "outside the law". Still, he hangs around with a group of mostly Lawful PC (they obviously don't know what his job consists of), beacuse this serves a purpose to him. He obviously disagrees with certain ways of doing things (especially with the local samurai) but rarely says anything about it. When my ninja "does his thing" he makes sure he's not been watched. He takes extra precautions in order to be subtle. Another CG character in the same party is quite different. More pational, she speaks her mind freely, not really thinking of the consequences this might bring or what the rest of the party might think of her. Each time she "does her thing" it causes fritctions between the samurai and her. These are two good examples (IMO) of a CG PC. Both different, yet they have the same alignment.
ClamsHaveFeeling 08-28-03, 01:45 PM	Well, yes, no one ever said that 2 CG characters ever had to act the same way. Alignment doesn't necessarily dictate actions. I'd say that Batman was LG, not NG. Sure, he worked towards the good of everyone (and good in general) but he did work with the police force(Com. Gordan) and had pretty close ties to the cops. I'd say Spiderman is a good example of NG, because he sometimes had to make decisions that might've been outside the law, but in the end he was working for the good of everyone.
Xysma 08-28-03, 01:58 PM	In our group we are adamant about not interfering with the autonomy of the player's characters. Do whatever you want, it is up to the DM to determine whether you are playing your character based on your concept and history not your alignment. If it is a natural progression based on the choices made in the game for your Chaotic Neutral Human Fighter to wind up being a Lawful Good Paladin of Clangeddin Silverbeard, so be it. Don't be restricted by your alignment, only be restricted by your character concept.
Edymnion 08-28-03, 05:26 PM	Originally posted by Trydan The DM (who was me at the time) passed him a note saying that if it happens again, he'll be regarded as CN, and if again then CE. Well, thats another part of Alignment that it seems most people overlook. A single action can NEVER alter your alignment short of magic being involved. A LG character can snap, and murder an entire villiage, and not change alignment. He would have to feel terrible about it afterwards, and do a lot of soul searching and the like, but just the act itself wouldn't change his alignment. Alignment is your general outlook on life. Only broad trends can change your alignment. Murdering an orc baby once doesn't mean squat to your alignment. Murdering orc babies a couple times raises the question, but doesn't bring about any action towards alignment. When you start murdering orc babies on general principle, thats when you get alignment changes. Just stealing from the party would drop you to Chaotic Neutral at most, its not enough for chaotic evil. He's not CdG'ing the party in their sleep, after all.