Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ravennight 09-12-07, 09:33 PM	Can a lich character be truly in love with another character? What if that character was of starkly different alignment and had suffered at the hands of the lich? I know that there are examples of plenty of evil characters falling in love, and some of them even being true love, like Semmemon and his lover, but alignment is going to play a role in how they show affection.
CrimsonDeath 09-12-07, 10:01 PM	Liches, and undead in general, have a vastly different outlook on the world. It's partly because their non-mortality allows them to take a long view on events (even longer than Elves or Dragons). It's partly because the transition from life to undeath is extremely traumatic. It's partly because their physiology (or, in some cases, lack thereof) changes the ways in which they must, or even can, interact with society. Furthermore, undead are portrayed as being drastically transformed-- physically and psychologically-- at the moment of becoming undead, and thereafter changing very little, or almost none at all, even if they survive for milennia. Undead are often portrayed as being able to feel obsession, posessiveness, infatuation, hunger, or even lust, but rarely love. Love implies, among other things, the willingness to sacrifice oneself for the genuine benefit of the object of one's affection. It seems unlikely that a person who intentionally performed a vile and unspeakable ritual in order to extend his existence at the cost of his essential humanity (or elvishness or gnomishness or what have you) would have such a self-sacrificing streak. Having said all of that, it may be possible for an undead character to fall in love. However, I presume that the object of his affection would exemplify his most cherished values, which is probably going to be rare among the living and almost nonexistant among non-evil characters.
Paradox_of_Life 09-12-07, 11:59 PM	Actually, yes. There have been many stories in which a Spellcaster attains lichdom, then once thats completed, gets its loved one to share undeaths embrace, so they may be with each other for eternity.
CrimsonDeath 09-13-07, 04:17 AM	Actually, yes. There have been many stories in which a Spellcaster attains lichdom, then once thats completed, gets its loved one to share undeaths embrace, so they may be with each other for eternity. Could you name some of them? I think they might be interesting.
Radijs 09-13-07, 05:05 AM	I've had an NPC who turned himself into a lich as a last desparate attempt to win himself enough time to find a way to bring back his one true love. It was quite a tragic story. Even in undeath he had exhausted all his options and now he was trying as a last desparate resort to write a poem to Evening Glory, the goddess in the hope that she would grant him his boon and bring his one true love back to him.
Karish 09-13-07, 10:18 AM	Could you name some of them? I think they might be interesting. Actually, I once got Graven (in my sig) to epics and he went Dread Necro 20, which turned him into a lich. His lover became one soon after.
CrimsonDeath 09-13-07, 03:05 PM	Actually, I once got Graven (in my sig) to epics and he went Dread Necro 20, which turned him into a lich. His lover became one soon after. The Dread Necromancer is a bit different. Since the transformation is gradual over the course of 20 levels rather than an abrupt procedure performed over the course of a couple of weeks, I can see how such a character might retain much of the sensibilities of a living creature, particularly for a morally neutral Dread Necromancer, and even more so for a true neutral one.
Paradox_of_Life 09-13-07, 03:12 PM	I remember there being a lich-loved template somewhere, and there were a few stories about the only way to defeat a deity-powered lich was by killing its loved one permanently. The grief was so much that it would either kill itself or allow itself to be killed, One of which was a stories ending.
CrimsonDeath 09-13-07, 05:25 PM	I remember there being a lich-loved template somewhere, and there were a few stories about the only way to defeat a deity-powered lich was by killing its loved one permanently. The grief was so much that it would either kill itself or allow itself to be killed, One of which was a stories ending. And where are these stories?
ravennight 09-13-07, 05:51 PM	The Lich-Loved feat in the Book of Vile Darkness and actually has more to do with necrophilia and grants vile abilities. As for stories, these are from the Realms, but there was Saharel, who was an archlich who ruled Spellguard, then there were the Baelnorn whose purpose in undeath was to serve, protect and teach the young and guard the treasure of their clan. They ultimately would sacrifice themselves to save clan members or to protect the crypts of their fallen ancestors. While not a lich, Semmemon was one of the leaders of the Zhentarim, a thoroughly evil power group in the Realms, and he was so in love with his apprentice Ashemmi that even the Blackstaff recognized the love shared between them. The thing about the undead psychology, as you said, is that their pursuit of undeath usually was caused by some obsession or with their own ego and power and a fear of death. I also think that even when they do experience real love, creatures with evil alignments would most likely continue to act according to their alignment, i.e. verbally or physically abusive, possessive, etc... For the characters involved in the scenario, the lich's obsession with gaining more knowledge, experimenting with an creating new forms of undead, don't come into conflict with its love for this character. In fact the character is becoming an incarnate, one of the classes from Magic of Incarnum supplement. It has to do with the energy of soulstuff, which is tied to the Weave of magic which composes all the natural and life energies of the planet. The lich is interested in the energy of soulstuff and although it is unable to tap into it, it wants to experiment with it through this character that has a potent natural connection to it. Also, its intention is to train the character as a weapon against a rival, although that is a secondary motivation at this point and not its primary obsession. Thoughts?
Crash169 09-13-07, 06:08 PM	Love is universal!
CrimsonDeath 09-13-07, 06:49 PM	Thoughts? In that case, I could see interest blossoming into obsession and, if the lich is the right sort of character, possibly love. Depending on his Sense Motive modifier and how long he's actually been undead, he may or may not express his love in a socially acceptable manner. Depending on what he does, she may or may not return his affection. Note that there is a feat to allow undead to shape soulmelds (using Charisma instead of Constitution). Note that, if she does return his affection (or if his experiments go as planned), she may learn some Necrocarnum melds.
jamesnero 09-13-07, 08:39 PM	ladies and gentlemen this looks like a job for the book of erotic fantasy :pile: its a pity I dont have my copy on me.
ravennight 09-15-07, 05:36 PM	In that case, I could see interest blossoming into obsession and, if the lich is the right sort of character, possibly love. Depending on his Sense Motive modifier and how long he's actually been undead, he may or may not express his love in a socially acceptable manner. Depending on what he does, she may or may not return his affection. Note that there is a feat to allow undead to shape soulmelds (using Charisma instead of Constitution). Note that, if she does return his affection (or if his experiments go as planned), she may learn some Necrocarnum melds. Yeah, That's sort of where I've been borderlining. Which soulmelds allow undead to shape them? I'll have to look through the book again, I'm still getting used to using it. I love it though.
CrimsonDeath 09-15-07, 09:49 PM	Yeah, That's sort of where I've been borderlining. Which soulmelds allow undead to shape them? I'll have to look through the book again, I'm still getting used to using it. I love it though. As long as he has the feat that allows undead to shape soulmelds (whose name I've forgotten-- AFB), he can shape any soulmeld he knows. What soulmelds he knows depends on his Meldshaping class and (if he's an Incarnate or Soulborn) his alignment. If he doesn't have any meldshaping classes, he'll need the Shape Soulmeld feat, which will allow access to one soulmeld. (I don't remember whether you can take Shape Soulmeld multiple times, and if you can, I don't remember whether you can shape them both at once.) I'm pretty sure there are dual-progression classes for both Meldshaper/Arcane Spellcasters and Meldshaper/Divine Spellcasters. I wanted to try a Meldshaper/Divine Caster build a while ago, using either Druid or Ur-Priest I think, but it didn't pan out due to alignment restrictions. I forget exactly what was wrong with the concept (and I can't check-- once again, AFB).
Paradox_of_Life 09-16-07, 02:17 AM	Stories are scattered, google them. Also, if a lich can be fond of something, it can love.
CrimsonDeath 09-16-07, 03:22 PM	Stories are scattered, google them. Like this? (http://www.google.com/search?client=opera&rls=en&q=lich+in+love&sourceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8) I'm not getting many stories. Honestly, if you could just point me to one or two, that would help.
GuyrtheadamantineOne 09-18-07, 11:53 AM	The Lich-Loved feat in the Book of Vile Darkness and actually has more to do with necrophilia and grants vile abilities. But this vision of the feat could be used in a more PC-Friendly way, allowing the subject of love to be more resilient, therefore live longer. ladies and gentlemen this looks like a job for the book of erotic fantasy its a pity I dont have my copy on me. It's a pity someone dare to mention such an awful book in a more psychological-bent thread.
Starcloud 09-20-07, 02:21 AM	A newly created lich can become obsessed with someone and call it "love". However, the fact is a lich is a sociopathic personality by the time it becomes a lich. A lich rapidly loses any capacity for human feeling, being driven by its obsession with magic and power. Can a lich truely love someone else? I don't think so, since that requires empathy, something undead are notably lacking in, even the vampires.
Kolytszusk 09-20-07, 05:01 PM	In order to answer this question, we must first know what makes up love and causes it. There are two things humans are driven by at their very base, need and fear. When one is in love, they are usually feeling extreme friendship, lust, fear of losing the person, and wonder all at once. It also cannot be forgotten that there are many forms of love, and none are more or valid than any of the others. Gritty love is just as true as the shiny pure stuff fairy tales speak of. I am sure that there are those of you who have felt obsessed with a love at a point in time. If a lich was to fall in love, they would have the same requirements. They would probably desire to 'have' the object of their lust very prevalently because of their selfish nature. They would desire to have this beautiful being that has proved itself deserving of their affections all to themself. A lich would be most likely to fall in love with someone that perpetuated their self-centred views - someone who cared for them when they were sad, someone who loved them even when they were wrong. In a sense, a lich is soemone who has reverted to childhood - someone who is ruled by fear of hurt and unable to deal with the idea of there possibly being nothing in the afterlife, or whatever they would have to face. Like a child, they would want to be given much attention and told they are the best and the only. To hear that from someone who they regarded as attractive and worthy of respect would probably spark the feeling of love in a lich. Posessive, obsessive, needy love - but love nonetheless, love that would perhaps even make them risk their life for the perpetuation of the emotions such a person would make them feel.
Radijs 09-20-07, 06:02 PM	I think its possible. For a reason that I can summise in two words: "Evening Glory" The goddess of undeath and everlasting love from Libris Mortis. Her avatar is a female Lich.
ArgulFraster 09-20-07, 08:31 PM	I think its possible. For a reason that I can summise in two words: "Evening Glory" The goddess of undeath and everlasting love from Libris Mortis. Her avatar is a female Lich. I need to make a cleric of this goddess. It sounds so...romantic...
Griff 09-22-07, 09:48 AM	I don't see why an evil being cannot love. And even then i don't see why they need to be any more 'evil' to their loved ones then would be expected for any character of any alignment. That said, evil acts would be common to protect that loved one (or even make their life nicer) Like the carnage that results when a lich requires a valentines day present ;) incidentally A favorite character of mine (Elven dread necromancer) is a Lich's daughter. Remember Evil people (and undead) have feelings too.
CrimsonDeath 09-22-07, 07:07 PM	I don't think the issue is whether evil beings can love. In legends, mythology, and literature, a great many problems arise when they do. I don't think the issue is whether undead have feelings; those have caused problems as well. To me, the issue is whether the feelings that undead have can be expressed in terms that the living could comprehend. Hmm... The biological daughter of a lich? I'm thinking that might go down about like Ra's al-Ghul and Talia...
pigknight 09-28-07, 03:32 PM	Yes, but if that character is a possitive channeler cleric or a paladin there might be a couple problems.
ravennight 09-29-07, 11:50 AM	A newly created lich can become obsessed with someone and call it "love". However, the fact is a lich is a sociopathic personality by the time it becomes a lich. A lich rapidly loses any capacity for human feeling, being driven by its obsession with magic and power. Can a lich truely love someone else? I don't think so, since that requires empathy, something undead are notably lacking in, even the vampires. I do agree, when a when a wizard seeks to become a lich, that is true, I don't think someone who wasn't a sociopath would seek to become undead. Here's more of my scenario though: the lich was killed by the master who would them become his rival. They were both necromancers in life, and later the rival became a lich as well, but my lich character used it as a last resort sort of thing because he knew that the more powerful necromancer would eventually seek to off-him. So...in a way, he only wanted to continue his research and didn't actively seek undeath. Also, my storyline with that character is to redeem him like they talk about in the Book of Exalted Deeds. I guess the psychology I working with is: This guy was an awkward bookish wizard in life. He never found love because he was too wrapped up in his work, but he still yearned for it. His becoming a lich was caused by happenstance and contingency than anything else, so I think it was such a dramatic transition between his persona as a living necromancer and that of a lich. He still yearns for love but is driven by his search for knowledge more than power. Also, keep in mind, that this guy is going to be redeemed eventually, and brought back to life by-the-way. So...that's where I'm at.
overfiend_87 05-16-08, 10:56 AM	well technically it's allowed. IT says that Necrophilia would be with an unintelligent undead, though I'm unsure with Lichs, but do they have an intelligence? I'm still new to D&D so I'm unsure.
Heliomance 05-16-08, 01:06 PM	There's an Archlich in Forgotten Realms who loved Elminster, though Archliches are good-aligned. It's in Shadows of Doom, and probably earlier ones also.
Stormbrand 05-17-08, 09:17 AM	well technically it's allowed. IT says that Necrophilia would be with an unintelligent undead, though I'm unsure with Lichs, but do they have an intelligence? I'm still new to D&D so I'm unsure. Liches are frighteningly intelligent. They are the masterminds and USB (Ultimate Scheming Bastards) of the undead world. A lich is scary not because of any natural power they have so much as their ability to reliably engineer events to go in their favour. A lich was a high-level spellcaster in life, normally Wizard, Cleric or Sorcerer. So at least one of their mental stats (Intelligence, Wisdom or Charisma) will be through the roof. Basically, if any fight with a lich is remotely fair the creature is being played wrong.
Stormbrand 05-17-08, 09:29 AM	I do agree, when a when a wizard seeks to become a lich, that is true, I don't think someone who wasn't a sociopath would seek to become undead. Here's more of my scenario though: the lich was killed by the master who would them become his rival. They were both necromancers in life, and later the rival became a lich as well, but my lich character used it as a last resort sort of thing because he knew that the more powerful necromancer would eventually seek to off-him. So...in a way, he only wanted to continue his research and didn't actively seek undeath. Also, my storyline with that character is to redeem him like they talk about in the Book of Exalted Deeds. I guess the psychology I working with is: This guy was an awkward bookish wizard in life. He never found love because he was too wrapped up in his work, but he still yearned for it. His becoming a lich was caused by happenstance and contingency than anything else, so I think it was such a dramatic transition between his persona as a living necromancer and that of a lich. He still yearns for love but is driven by his search for knowledge more than power. Also, keep in mind, that this guy is going to be redeemed eventually, and brought back to life by-the-way. So...that's where I'm at. Here is the thing; becoming a lich is hard work. Even harder work to get right. So the living necromancer obviously had chance to develop the procedure and such. Basically, what I am getting at is lichdom (by all the fluff I know of) is probably too complicated to be done unwillingly. IE: Lich transformation in response to fear of assassination is probably an excuse the character told himself, or the fear was really long-term so the character had lots of other options which he ignored. Etc etc. On the sociopath front, the procedure is described as unspeakably evil. So rather than think of becoming undead as the horrible stuff, think of the actual steps and ingredients necessary for lichdom as requiring absolute atrocities. A sympathetic/loving lich that works well is one with a family. Think of him discreetly attatched to a noble house or something and fanatic about looking after his descendants. Sort of like a mysterious patron ancestor figure. In this case, the best way to redeem him would be to reveal the bad consequences his necromancy brings to his family.
Vorteld 05-17-08, 03:08 PM	How about the Good Lich template from Libris Mortis?
cjerowe 05-22-08, 01:52 PM	Does anyone remember Lord Soth? The Death Knight whose love for a mortal woman led him to do unspeakable acts. This idea has merit. The process for becoming a lich is pretty much fluff but, if you're DM is willing, then perhaps you could do this: Your lichdom is a curse. In a fit of jealousy, you used your magic to kill an innocent woman whom you loved when you found her with another suitor (an innocent meeting which you mistook for something more). Having realized your foolishness, you attempted to take your own life but instead you were cursed to walk the world as a lich, your soul bound to the locket that she gave you. Your jealousy and coveteousness has made you Evil now. You delve into the necromantic arts believing that the dark powers will hold some secret that you can use to bring her back...
Stormbrand 05-23-08, 01:44 AM	Does anyone remember Lord Soth? The Death Knight whose love for a mortal woman led him to do unspeakable acts. This idea has merit. The process for becoming a lich is pretty much fluff but, if you're DM is willing, then perhaps you could do this: Your lichdom is a curse. In a fit of jealousy, you used your magic to kill an innocent woman whom you loved when you found her with another suitor (an innocent meeting which you mistook for something more). Having realized your foolishness, you attempted to take your own life but instead you were cursed to walk the world as a lich, your soul bound to the locket that she gave you. Your jealousy and coveteousness has made you Evil now. You delve into the necromantic arts believing that the dark powers will hold some secret that you can use to bring her back... Problem is, without the lich fluff, it is really just another type of undead which duplicates the abilities of a lich. The idea itself is cool for entirely different reasons, however. I think it would make a better ghost or other form of undead than a true lich.
Doomsought 05-25-08, 11:09 PM	I can think of only one motivation to become a lich when involved with love: fall in love with a dragon... You want all the half dragons to be yours so to speak. A very possessive form of love that would fit in with it... oh god! I've just created the most evil jealous housewife ever! this is almost too evil, even for me.